00:01:32 nyef: seems to work. 00:01:39 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has joined #lisp 00:04:21 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:04:46 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-100.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: I wish the toaster to be happy, too.] 00:04:48 jsoft_ [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:07:06 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:07:57 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:08:09 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e70d635.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:09:35 mattrepl [~mattrepl@va-visitor-out01.fgm.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:43 *drewc* hugs SBCL... type inference + warnings FTW! 00:15:32 pkhuong: Oh, and it finally occurred to me what was up with that $(N_FIXNUM_TAG_BITS) thing: Is the preprocessor treating $ as a constituent? 00:17:55 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:18:57 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:20:49 -!- cadabra [~cadabra@69.169.170.130.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:21:24 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:40 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: quotemstr] 00:23:02 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@125.109.247.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:23:40 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@va-visitor-out01.fgm.com] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:25:43 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 00:26:05 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:27:05 -!- Guest36265 [~user@159.92.64.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:32 nyef: probably. 00:30:07 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has joined #lisp 00:30:10 I'd be tempted to try -fno-dollars-in-identifiers as an assembler flag instead of the extra parens, but it occurs to me that something -else- stupid could break. 00:30:33 Oh well, maybe if no-x86oid-assem.S lands. 00:32:24 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.168.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:33:51 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:26 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f6668e0-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 00:37:36 nunb [~nundan@59.178.171.69] has joined #lisp 00:38:33 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:39:47 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:41:51 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:53 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:36 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:44:55 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 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Leaving] 01:33:52 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 01:35:43 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:37:34 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:59 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:37 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:41:25 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:41:55 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 01:42:08 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:42:14 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 01:43:29 konr [~user@189.0.31.1] has joined #lisp 01:51:08 -!- konr [~user@189.0.31.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:51:28 konr [~user@189.0.31.1] has joined #lisp 01:55:45 -!- gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:58:43 Is there any crossplatform libs out there for doing RS232? 01:59:11 Phoodus: I know none. 01:59:48 ... RS232 is a -hardware- standard. 01:59:52 On unix you can (shell "stty ... <> /dev/ttyS") (with-open-file (io "/tmp/ttyS0" :direction :io ...) ...) 02:00:20 yeah, unix exposes it to the filesystem, which lisp can access, but that's not really crossplatform ;) 02:00:40 (with-open-file (io "COM1" :direction :io ...) ...)? 02:00:53 And, honestly, how many target platforms do you have, again? 02:00:58 linux and windows 02:01:10 mac would be nice, but I don't have one 02:01:12 Install cygwin, and you have only one! 02:01:20 pjb: Umm... God, no! 02:01:32 that's not very friendly to users :-P 02:01:33 Macs run unix these days anyway. 02:01:47 isn't it a BSD derivative? 02:01:53 Well, mach, with some sort of unix emulation layer, at least. 02:02:01 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:02:02 You may leave cygwin hidden from the user, like Darwin is hidden from MacOSX users. 02:02:13 saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-63-204-10-134.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:16 that would still require them downloading & installing it 02:02:30 well, i guess I could bundle in cygwin dlls or something 02:02:31 *nyef* is semi-tempted to try and set up a Hurd VM in order to have Yet Another SBCL Port. 02:02:49 but the program is easy enough to do in C or whatever; I'd just prefer doing it in lisp if there was an easy way to hit the serial ports 02:03:02 Repeat after me: "Stay well away from cygwin". "Stay well away from cygwin". 02:03:42 what exactly is wrong with cygwin? 02:03:52 Signal emulation, for starters. 02:03:54 I use cygwin for having shell scripts, but never really used it for actual coding 02:04:01 (the only time I tried it, I didn't like it, but I have no clue about real reasons) 02:04:28 oh, and I use the cygwin X server 02:04:37 (not that that's that great either) 02:04:50 I use the cygwin X server as well. But then, you don't need to deal with cygwin signals when you use that thing. 02:04:51 -!- blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:17 Phoodus: it is not hard to hit the serial ports. Only it's not more "portable" in lisp than it is in C. 02:05:42 you mean it's not hard in lisp? 02:05:50 No not really. 02:05:56 Just implementation specific. 02:05:59 through which API? 02:06:05 Get a file descriptor and use termios. 02:06:11 Through whatever platform API exists. 02:06:22 so, using ffi? 02:06:33 if nothing else do, yes. 02:08:15 kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:10:16 Hunh. So -that's- what happened to the C-c at console on Win32 stuff that I remembered doing. 02:10:48 It's just sitting in one of three git trees on my virtualbox share. 02:14:32 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:14:39 Anyone written a CL interface to Askismet? 02:16:32 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:16:55 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:29 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:17:48 Phoodus: OS X is, through some weird mixing, BSD-line Unix with some unusual software ;-) 02:17:59 dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:59 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:18:00 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 02:18:07 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:32 -!- _Rui_ [~rui@172.108.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has left #lisp 02:20:45 Most "interesting" applications of unix is some unix with some unusual software running on it. Eg. telephone centrals, embedded software such as car engines, plane autopilots, nuclear power plant controllers, etc. 02:21:13 Often on the outside, it doesn't look like the unix you grew with at all. 02:21:26 pjb: afaik, unix is not found inside autopilots 02:21:44 I'd bet at least one used unix or a unix like :-) 02:21:46 the system in use might, however, use POSIX APIs for ease of programming 02:22:09 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-156-19.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:22:09 (there are some U(C)AVs that use QNX, for example, quite a lot of them) 02:22:11 Yes, the kernel may have been modified to support real time tasks. 02:22:33 QNX is a "unix". At least as much as Mach in MacOSX. 02:22:50 if you define posix==unix 02:23:01 pjb: AFAIK Mach is much more "unixy" than QNX. 02:23:03 necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:07 If you don't, linux is not unix. 02:23:29 false dichotomy 02:23:32 Mach is far from unix. you could run VMS or WNT on Mach! 02:23:47 pjb: VMS is rather impossible on Mach, IMHO 02:23:48 BSD is but a "personality" of Mach. 02:25:41 linux is not unix? 02:25:47 also, NT is also rather unfitting on Mach 02:25:48 it is for all practical purposes 02:25:48 Some say no. 02:25:49 But anyways, I take a rather large definition for unix, and indeed, posix is a big part of it. On the side of the user, indeed unix = posix. You just need to add a few features kernel side and you have enough to be considered an unix. 02:26:19 necroforest: by legal definition, linux is not unix. Neither are *BSDs, although you could say that they retain some rights by legacy :-) 02:26:21 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-171.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: good night people] 02:26:28 linux is not unix only as far as "officially sanctioned labeling by the legal owners of the UNIX trademark" 02:26:51 *p_l* personally dislikes Mach 02:27:11 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-171.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 02:27:11 Well, the idea was interesting, but it seems that Linus is right. 02:27:21 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:27:33 the only (known to me) sucessful systems with Mach kernel were the ones that broke Mach first and put a lot of stuff back into kernel space 02:27:57 so is it possible to program LISP like you would C, where you write the file, run the lisp equivalent of gcc -o myprogram myprogram.c, and out pops an executable? 02:28:00 however, with Mach kernel being bigger than its contemporary 4.4BSD kernel, it didn't make a big difference... 02:28:37 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:28:44 p_l: On the other hand, with the more powerful machine we have today, perhaps it could run. For example, in the case of Xen, you have all kind of system services running in "user space" (from the point of view of Xen ;-P ). 02:29:01 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-63-204-10-134.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 02:29:14 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:29:17 necroforest: not exactly... you can do what is called "dumping an image" (which some CL implementations might implement in a way closer to C) and generate an executable from a running image 02:29:18 p_l: yes, size considerations have a tendency to become moot and upside down :-) 02:29:43 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-171.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Client Quit] 02:29:45 pjb: the real problem with Mach wasn't size, although size did have an impact on the problem that brought Mach down to knees 02:29:47 and when you dump an image, you typically specify which function should be called at startup 02:29:53 p_l, sounds unneccesarily complicated? 02:29:57 necroforest: some CL implementations just do that, run gcc. Cf. gcl and ecl. 02:30:06 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:30:11 necroforest: not really. 02:30:12 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 02:30:22 necroforest: since Lisp is a fully dynamic language, there's no real distinction between compile-time and run-time 02:30:27 hmm 02:30:40 in terms of the classical edit/compile/test loop, where compiles are "offline" 02:30:41 Conceptually, dumping an image is much simplier than generating object files and link-editing them... 02:30:49 pjb: the problem with Mach is that for a IPC-heavy system, it has the worst IPC around :D 02:31:06 I 02:31:16 I'm wondering if that's not a hardware problem. 02:31:17 I guess I'm thinking from a commercial/industrial perspective, I want to be able to have an official makefile that i can run to output an 'official' build that can be deployed somewhere 02:31:41 For 20 or 30 years, hardware (processors) has been optimized for unix like OSes. 02:31:41 you'd have a .lisp file that you load, which pulls everything in and calls your image builder function 02:32:03 pjb: nope - it's a problem of Mach's misuse of hardware based on weird concept that MMU would have beautiful, byte-granular uber-fast performance 02:32:09 necroforest: and you can trigger that .lisp file from teh commandline easily enough 02:32:20 p_l: couldn't it have it? 02:32:27 We'd like to have it for a lisp machine OS too. 02:32:35 ah ok 02:32:40 so it'd be like a Lisp makefile 02:32:45 pjb: technically a waste of resources 02:33:00 necroforest: basically. There's nothing outside of lisp that you can do to build things 02:33:10 outside of the lisp environment 02:33:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 02:33:18 p_l: atoms are cheap! :-) 02:33:30 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:33:44 pjb: there are micro/nanokernels that show that you can do such a system fast etc. - some are even faster in even the lowest-level benchmarks on single cpu than monolithic. Mach simply did it wrong :) 02:33:50 That's why we have exponential growth in hardware capabilities. 02:34:01 Sure. 02:34:31 <_3b> minion: tell necroforest about xcvb 02:34:32 necroforest: direct your attention towards xcvb: XCVB, an eXtensible Component Verifier and Builder for Lisp is an attempt to replace asdf. http://www.cliki.net/xcvb 02:35:03 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:49 hmm 02:37:42 pjb: the problem is, that mach's IPC is fine when you have, let's say, a 1MB message to pass between two processes. Not when you have 1200 small IPC calls between process and several services, which is much more common :) 02:38:23 i thought there was some shell script people in here recommended for extensions? 02:38:40 minion, tell necroforest about clbuild 02:38:40 necroforest: look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 02:38:44 yeah, that 02:38:48 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 02:39:15 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:26 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:39:33 pjb: however, the concept of services itself is sound - look at L4 (which has a *huge* deployment in form of L4/Linux on ARM), QNX and Sun Spring. All of those can actually do the "split OS into several, small services" without performance penalty (sometimes even faster) than monolithic kernel, and a big part of that is a much better IPC 02:39:35 p_l: again, hardware support may come handy. Having a lightweight gate passing for example. IIRC some versions of 680x0 had something like that, some kind of protected JSR cheaper than a syscall. 02:39:53 Yes, L4 sounds better than Mach. 02:40:14 pjb: yes, except it won't fit Mach. Mach's IPC is many things, but definitely not "lightweight" :) 02:40:25 Of course, for Apple, it was too late, having hired one of the main creators of Mach as CTO... 02:40:43 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:13 OKL4/Linux (the most popular embedded implementation at the moment, I think) for example has special fast syscall routine, that makes it actually faster on ARM than standard Linux 02:41:56 pjb: When Apple bought OSX it was already a functional system, with Mach properly "culled" in similar fashion to OSF/1 (with which it shares some code) 02:42:44 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:06 pity, though, that Mach's v3 poor performance nearly killed microkernels outside academia 02:43:48 also - the fastest microkernel OS out there was probably AmigaOS :D 02:44:46 I guess Mach is good enough for Apple's purpose. The proof is in comparing the quotes of AAPL vs. HPQ or DELL. 02:45:28 pjb, some don't sell music. 02:45:29 Notice also that while MacOSX is noticeably slower than Linux, it's still faster than MS-Windows. 02:46:06 pjb: I'm not sure if it's faster, or is it just that many windows users have much more shit installed ;-) 02:46:40 definitely my only comparison is very inaccurate and definitely biased, though 02:46:58 i've got the same shit installed on linux, macosx and ms-windows: namely ratpoison, emacs and firefox :-) 02:47:31 *p_l* ran Windows 7 Enterprise x86 and OSX 10.5.6 on virtual machine on his laptop, and Win7 was definitely more agreeable. OSX got more agreeable when the VM got put on a beefed-up C2Q, though ;-) 02:47:48 pjb, Snow Leopard would crawl to halt on some machines where NT5.1 runs quite fast. 02:48:09 I'm still with 10.5.8... 02:48:18 And only MS-Windows-NT. 02:48:23 ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has joined #lisp 02:48:47 *p_l* found NT6.1 much better than 5.1 02:49:20 p_l, limit your mem to ~512MB and check again (-; 02:50:14 nus: after SP2, NT5.1 no longer holds a candle in performance to anything except misconfigured Vista ;-) 02:50:48 actually, they should have backported some API changes back to 5.x, file junctures, f.e. 02:50:56 nus: people found that win7 works quite nicely on old hardware (1GHz Pentium M, 512MB ram etc.) 02:51:25 nus: There wasn't much changed in FS layer that could be sanely backported, IMHO 02:52:13 nus: Unless you consider that proper backport would require significant work in big part of userland apps, which isn't finished in NT6 line yet, creating idiots who delete SxS directory 02:52:16 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:53:34 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.205.88] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:54:08 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:54:09 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 02:54:55 p_l, there're essential kernel API changes that could have been easily backported. OTOH, the userland change is massive due to CLR shift. 02:55:21 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-98-229-100-198.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:55:37 saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-64-172-118-200.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:51 nus: the real target, at least among the NT team, not the "bend-over for backward compatibility" team, is to remove all native code 02:58:40 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night] 02:59:39 the whole system becoming slightly similar to iOS (AS/400) or Inferno 03:00:40 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 03:01:56 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:43 -!- Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:04:04 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-agpdauyoqslbacsq] has joined #lisp 03:04:18 JonSmith [~jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:37 *p_l* loves though to see people who follow the "delete SxS directory for extra space" misadvice ^_^ 03:06:05 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 03:06:59 What is the SxS directory? 03:08:00 pjb: a versioned resource repository 03:08:32 Ah right, the "installation and servicign state of all system components". 03:08:34 deleting it is equivalent to using hardlinks instead of symlinks for all lib*.so -> lib*.so. then deleting all numbered libs :D 03:09:09 It sounds even worse than that. Kind of deleting the receipts of all installed packages. 03:09:15 basically, the system might work... till the next update where the system might be irreversibly destroyed 03:09:33 Yes. 03:10:10 pjb: it uses hardlinks to basically make a GC'ed set of "assemblies" necessary for correct working of the system, so you can have two applications that require very specific versions of a library without clashes 03:10:35 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:10:46 it also allows offline update and management in NT6 03:11:05 the problem is, explorer.exe is incapable of calculating directory size of it 03:11:10 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:11:12 so people believe it to be *big* 03:11:19 :-) 03:11:19 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-217-54.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:11:58 SBCL 1.0.35 is coughing on XMLS, because it treats simple-string and simple-base-string as synonymous. I'm guessing that an XML library should prefer simple-string, and I should kill simple-base-string, yes? 03:12:46 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:47 Yes. Since XML takes unicode text... 03:12:57 or possibly even EBCDIC text... 03:12:58 *rpg* is really guessing he should read Xophe's stuff about Unicode and Lisp... 03:13:52 *p_l* recalls a quote from auditor's logbook: "day x: the connection is encrypted, good" "day x+y: The connection wasn't encrypted, it was EBCDIC" 03:13:54 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:13:54 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 03:13:54 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:14:09 slyrus_ [~slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:04 -!- dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:18:48 I heard it as a question to students: What encryption standard did IBM invent? EBCDIC. 03:19:46 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:40 tmitt_ [seg@wizardly.us] has joined #lisp 03:20:51 smithzv_ [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:54 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:55 MrAwesome- [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:06 -!- tmitt [seg@wizardly.us] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 03:21:06 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 03:21:13 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:52 gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 03:25:51 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:25:51 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:26:52 -!- MrAwesome- [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:27:29 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:29:07 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:31 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:31:50 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 03:32:33 asdf25 [~jeff@pool-173-79-231-213.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:20 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:39:08 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:46:47 dlowe [~dlowe@m6d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:03 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:50:13 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:34 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@m6d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:55:54 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 03:58:05 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:27 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7795.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:59:26 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:42 quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:52 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:02:38 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-106-238.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:03:07 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:04:27 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:04:27 -!- quotemstr_ is now known as quotemstr 04:04:46 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:58 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-238.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:10:31 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-45-82-65-182-240.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:45 benny [~benny@i577A8FD6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:14:58 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:16:42 pjb: ratpoison runs on osx and windows? 04:21:51 -!- asdf25 [~jeff@pool-173-79-231-213.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:24:23 slyrus_ [~slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 04:24:25 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:26:09 osx i can see, maybe cygwin on windows? 04:26:12 -!- gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has left #lisp 04:26:15 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:28 Good morning! 04:28:04 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:43 http://dresdencodak.com/2010/02/16/artificial-flight-and-other-myths-a-reasoned-examination-of-af-by-top-birds/ Heehee 04:29:55 (for AI folks) 04:32:07 Morning, beach. 04:33:12 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:33:22 lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-198-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:29 gigamonkey: How is work with gigabot going? 04:35:15 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-7-168.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:36:11 beach: I've been taking a rest from that and thinking about this instead: http://gigamonkeys.com/blog/2010/02/18/gigamonkeys-quarterly.html 04:36:14 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:42 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-72-45.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:37:39 -!- lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-217-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:38:12 gigamonkey: Interesting idea! 04:40:27 -!- erk is now known as BeZerk 04:45:14 malsyned_ [~malsyned@24.151.76.65] has joined #lisp 04:47:35 Does Common Lisp provide a way to check if an output call would block? 04:48:30 SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:32 There is LISTEN. 04:48:36 Sorry, output. 04:48:52 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:09 No. But you might look at force-output and finish-output. 04:52:01 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:52:01 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:52:42 Those don't let me avoid a blocking call though. 04:52:54 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:06 konrad [~user@189.0.31.1] has joined #lisp 04:55:27 oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:23 -!- Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:56:40 malsyned_: blocking/non-blocking calls are OS-specific, unfortunately and AFAIK aren't really covered in ANSI CL (but implementations will have access to those) 04:58:05 (no wonder, the copy of "Common Lisp: the reference" I had seen includes both Symbolics and VAX Lisp, and VMS simply doesn't have blocking I/O) 04:59:23 VMS doesn't have *blocking* IO? You learn something new every day. 05:03:03 malsyned_: yeah. A former boss of mine who was a big VMS head always ranted about Unix's synchronous IO. 05:09:10 gigamonkey: I didn't know that (and I have worked on VMS). What do they do if the program produces output faster than the device can handle? 05:14:41 beach: I don't really know. 05:15:23 What I gathered was that everything was done with callbacks. So maybe your program had to buffer output until you got the callback indicating that your pending write had completed. 05:16:26 I see. 05:16:31 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 05:18:14 But I'm completely making that up. 05:18:49 Sounds plausible though. 05:20:22 huh. I thought CLISP was native to Windows. But their web site only lists a Cygwin port. 05:20:30 Pisco_Sour [~chatzilla@174-26-147-211.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:39 Lisp! 05:20:49 -!- Pisco_Sour [~chatzilla@174-26-147-211.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 05:20:50 oh never mind, found it. 05:23:32 -!- konrad [~user@189.0.31.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:26:38 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-64-172-118-200.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 05:31:48 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:37:20 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:37:37 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:38:23 -!- rme [rme@clozure-51821EF0.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:38:23 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:38:31 beach: it uses either callbacks or signals 05:39:08 p_l: Thanks! 05:39:34 when you make I/O request in VMS, you either assign a callback to it, or check a condition variable. C's fread/fwrite are done by making a call and then blocking on condition 05:39:59 -!- Lycurgus [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 05:40:49 afaik many "longer" OS calls are implemented in similar way 05:41:30 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:41:32 So that seems to allow them to move code from OS space to user space. 05:41:34 but well, it's one of the few systems where you can in theory put CLISP into kernel space through FFI ;-) 05:42:05 beach: VMS has 4 privilege levels, which are basically required to make it possible to port it anywhere 05:43:34 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 05:43:38 KERNEL (0), EXEC (1), Supervisor (2) and User (3) 05:44:23 afaik most of I/O is done in Exec layer. And yes, you can enter any of the privilege levels from any application, given apriopriate security settings 05:45:30 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 05:47:28 p_l: Interesting. Clearly, I had only a very superficial knowledge of VMS at the time. 05:47:45 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:17 beach: Mine isn't too good as well, but I was seriously impressed by Condition Handling Facility... unlike SEH, it is clearly documented and seems easy to use :) 05:55:25 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 06:01:12 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 06:03:11 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-76-237.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:05:21 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:08:41 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 06:10:16 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-106-238.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:11:49 -!- ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:14:28 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:15:30 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:56 *p_l* just noticed that async. I/O on Plan 9 is dead-simple with an event-queue in place of open()/close() :/ 06:19:59 isn't it fun when you can implement all I/O for your application over a single socket? 06:20:05 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:44 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:22:03 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:28:20 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:28 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:30:13 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:30 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:33:57 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 06:35:01 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:36:34 -!- delian66 [~root@vps1.bgwebart.com] has left #lisp 06:37:47 xinming [~hyy@125.109.247.168] has joined #lisp 06:39:38 RecycleCorn [~RecycleCo@201.160.242.20.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 06:39:45 It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. What have the niggers in New 06:39:47 Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 06:39:52 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:40:54 minion, more K-line! 06:40:55 k line me harder 06:41:10 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:41:43 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:03 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:50:39 lol 06:50:58 It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. What have the niggers in New 06:51:01 Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 06:51:54 phnglui [~phnglui@cpe-76-181-155-131.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:52:45 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 06:53:06 -!- RecycleCorn [~RecycleCo@201.160.242.20.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [K-Lined] 06:54:50 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:55:37 milanj [~milan@93.87.151.101] has joined #lisp 06:55:59 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:18 ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has joined #lisp 06:59:04 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:03:54 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:06:18 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:07:25 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:06 -!- milanj [~milan@93.87.151.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:08 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:14:43 -!- c|mell [~cmell@87.115.12.82.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:59 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:17:49 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:20:18 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.196] has joined #lisp 07:21:42 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:23:27 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.238] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:24:34 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:25:59 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:52 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:32:48 pdponze [~pierre@144.85.124.96] has joined #lisp 07:38:01 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:42:03 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:42:37 Tonijz [~tonijs@85.254.194.65] has joined #lisp 07:49:22 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:53:28 a-s [~user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:33 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:56:49 good morning 08:01:32 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 08:01:57 bytecolor pasted "do* init" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95239 08:02:09 splittist [~5502c13e@gateway/web/freenode/x-fovsfznhcekucgkv] has joined #lisp 08:02:11 morning 08:02:25 bytecolor [~user@70.133.76.237] has joined #lisp 08:02:59 did that past come through? I forgot I was not logged in ;) 08:03:05 *paste 08:03:10 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:03:42 splittist: Was there any discussion regarding my mail? 08:04:37 bytecolor: do* binds sequentially, so LINE may get NIL (as return value of read-line) in the (char line 0) 08:04:42 tcr: not that I saw, but I left in the middle of the day yesterday. lukego seems keen. I am, too. 08:06:04 alright 08:08:08 tcr: oh, so it's actually in the adjoin form where line is nil 08:08:59 well It *could* be in the `(,(char line 0)) form if genhash.log was empty 08:09:03 I see 08:10:33 mega1 [~quassel@pool-00e6f.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:11:24 -!- a-s [~user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:12:50 -!- ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:44 brill_ [~brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:18:05 -!- brill_ [~brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 08:18:07 hankhero [~Adium@static-213-115-115-100.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:18:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 08:19:02 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 08:19:27 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 08:20:17 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-211-88.vodafone.hu] has joined 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08:46:04 brill_ [~brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:46:09 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:47:34 -!- brill_ [~brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 08:52:46 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-10-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:54:56 fiveop [~fiveop@g229243174.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:55:38 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:55:44 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:58 good morning 08:57:39 ryepup1 [~ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:16 Fufie [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:42 -!- ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:58:56 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-184-120.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:30 Reaver2 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:59:47 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] 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[~jtza8@iburst-41-213-37-158.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:07:52 What is the reason that methods can't be specialised on &optional parameters? 10:09:10 *jtza8* looks around, shivers, this must be a ghost town. 10:09:56 minion: Hello 10:09:56 what's up? 10:10:15 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-055-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:21 jtza8, I'm guessing just "efficiency" 10:10:36 Ah, well that would make sense. 10:10:46 you can always write an internal function that does that dispatch and wrap it with something that takes &optional 10:11:22 Right, and use check-type for simple cases, I guess. 10:11:26 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-055-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 10:12:35 how come SBCL has separate arrays for (unsigned-byte 7) and (unsigned-byte 8) ? 10:13:34 -!- dandersen [~d90c1432@metabug/dandersen] has quit [] 10:15:25 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:15:54 irocha [~user@200-221-128-52.corp.uolinc.com] has joined #lisp 10:15:54 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:18:00 -!- irocha [~user@200-221-128-52.corp.uolinc.com] has left #lisp 10:20:04 I have another... interesting question. Is there a standard condition that I could signal if a file is not readable? 10:21:37 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:21:49 clhs file-error 10:21:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_file_e.htm 10:22:07 Ah, thanks stassats. 10:25:03 -!- oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:25:29 oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:13 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:27:59 Adlai: used for strings? 10:28:33 Adlai: or do you mean why it doesn't upgrade (unsigned-byte 7) to (unsigned-byte 8)? 10:29:14 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:41 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 10:36:06 p_l, the latter 10:36:56 just out of curiosity. I guess it kinda makes sense for an array of ASCII values 10:37:11 Adlai: have you checked how they are stored? 10:37:24 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:26 no 10:37:31 -!- oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:37:43 I'd expect (unsigned-byte 8) storage, but actual recognition of type for overflow checking, for example 10:39:26 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-56-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:39:34 I do recall for example protocols that used 112 bit frames with ASCII over them, which makes a big difference - 14 characters or 16 characters? :) 10:39:58 oh, maybe it's also for (signed-byte 8) arrays 10:41:53 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:43:45 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-00e6f.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:45:09 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:45:54 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:47:46 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:49:11 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-56-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:50:34 oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:42 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:46 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:53 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-118-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:07 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 11:09:04 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:09:25 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 11:10:10 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:57 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:42 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:15:10 mikol [~Michael@AMarseille-753-1-20-81.w80-9.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:16:25 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:16:44 -!- Reaver2 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:18:20 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 11:31:21 -!- oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:31:50 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 11:35:05 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:35:51 oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:09 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:40:55 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 11:43:02 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-56-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 11:44:20 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:47:21 I wonder how to run some code at startup time in slime 11:47:26 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:47:29 marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:47 which code? 11:47:59 on emacs side or lisp side? 11:48:05 I need to push the path to uffi onto the asdf registry 11:48:07 lisp 11:48:16 ~/.swank.lisp 11:48:22 thanks! 11:49:05 spacebat: consider using upstream asdf which comes with asdf-side configuration 11:49:13 or use ~/.sbclrc, ~/.eclrc etc 11:50:10 I'm using clbuild, and when I run with its provided slime config, sbclrc is ignored 11:51:29 but I suspect it would load too soon anyway, the path to uffi has to be searched first if I'm to get elephant to work 11:51:45 -!- oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:51:54 .swank.lisp works well 11:52:11 alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-1092.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:52:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-211-88.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:13 I'll have to look up asdf-side config 11:52:19 oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:13 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 11:56:27 using CFFI, I'm trying to define the equivalent of "#define foo-array foo[123]" like this "(defctype foo-array (foo :count 123)", which triggers an error in the call to cffi:notice-foreign-type at macro-expansion-time. what do I want to do instead? 11:57:38 -!- Tonijz [~tonijs@85.254.194.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:58:17 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 11:58:37 well, apart from adding a closing paren at the end of my defctype. :p 12:00:58 the objective is to "(foreign-alloc 'foo-array)" without specifying :count 123 at that time, but rather at the time I'm defining `foo-array' 12:01:26 that would be a typedef, not a #define 12:01:50 alland, maybe use a symbol macro, and then (foreign-alloc foo-array) ? 12:01:56 indeed, sorry. "typedef foo foo[123]" 12:02:11 alland: I don't think CFFI lets you specify array subtypes of a given size directly, but you can specify structs having array members of a given size. 12:02:12 ah 12:02:25 can you define symbol macros in the global environment? 12:02:37 clhs define-symbol-macro 12:02:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm 12:02:38 clhs d-s-m 12:02:38 DEFINE-SYMBOL-MACRO: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm 12:03:24 ralith: I was thinking that, just do "(defcstruct foo-array (foo :count 123))" and it would achieve the same? 12:03:35 thank you! 12:04:06 (only ever used `symbol-macrolet' :} 12:05:09 I'll try the symbol-macro-approach, less confusing when, or if, I get back to this in a year. 12:05:44 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:17 (and I meant "typedef foo foo_array[123]" - I thank my deity for compilers that patiently shepherd me through the day) 12:08:45 -!- oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:11:44 silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has joined #lisp 12:12:44 davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:05 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:14:06 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:14:09 rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:00 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:06 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:15:32 mega1 [~quassel@3e70d635.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:15:52 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:59 ASau`` [~user@77.246.230.163] has joined #lisp 12:16:13 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-10-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:16:50 Hello. (defparameter *var* (my-fun ...)). When I am trying to (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :my-package), SBCL is complaining about that MY-FUN is undefined (actually MY-FUN is defined latter in the same file). How could I initialize a var using functions & macros that are not loaded yet? 12:16:56 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.163] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:17:05 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:17:34 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 12:17:50 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:19:03 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:19:07 <_8david> DEFVAR it without a value, and then after the function has been defined, SETF (or DEFVAR) it again to assign the value. 12:19:14 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:19:41 _8david: Thanks. 12:19:42 the second time, you'd have to use DEFPARAMETER 12:21:05 not if it's unbound 12:21:52 *Adlai* learned something today 12:26:00 marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:37 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:34:12 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-118-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:20 hmm, what are some other forms that look weird if you've never seen 'em before, like (defvar *foo*) or (aref bar)? 12:35:17 (+) and (*)? 12:35:30 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-118-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:35:34 #+(or) 12:36:57 oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:16 Xach: I homed in on (defvar *foo*) early on, because I was anxious about global varables, yet excited about dynamic binding, so having no global binding for my dynamically bound variables was purdy. 12:37:24 somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:37:42 stassats: i like those 12:38:19 stassats: though i can't say i've seen them in the wild 12:38:28 one can obfuscate code with (+) (*) (logand) 12:39:11 oh, one from the wild that puzzled me until I figured out what it was for: (defconstant +foo+ '+foo+) 12:39:33 that's almost like a :keyword 12:39:45 yep! 12:39:49 keyword in the wild 12:40:06 :D except that it has a home-package. 12:40:14 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-118-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:25 ^^ which is part of figuring out what it's for. 12:40:31 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-94-44-38-254.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:40:38 keywords have home-package as well 12:41:13 Wulf [~wulf@f054101123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:15 Hello 12:41:35 well, but one that looks textually the same no matter which package is the current. 12:41:39 can you recommend a small reference for basic list manipulation commands like car/cdr? 12:42:14 Wulf: http://l1sp.org/cl/14.2 12:42:20 FSVOsmall 12:42:36 thank you. 12:42:36 (I think of the fact that they reside in the keyword package as an implementation detail, or so, but that's just the semantics I've assigned to it ofc) 12:42:55 minion: tell Wulf about clqr 12:42:56 Wulf: have a look at clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 12:44:43 the interesting difference is that "foo-package::+foo+" is different from ":foo" 12:44:52 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.] 12:45:09 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:47 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-56-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:39 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:49:33 (so the effect is that you have a constant, without a "magical number" that it can accidentally be confused with, and it can't be confused with an accidentally interned keyword, so it has a practical applicability that keywords don't have, because of the colon dispatcher in the reader. 12:51:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:02 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:09 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.104.251] has joined #lisp 12:57:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-94-44-38-254.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:09 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 13:00:20 and can you recommend an implementation of common lisp for unix/gnu? apt-cache search lisp has 231 hits 13:00:37 sbcl 13:00:42 sbcl 13:00:47 minion: please tell Wulf about clbuild 13:00:49 Wulf: please see clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 13:01:00 thanks, I'll check out sbcl 13:01:07 consider using it instead of apt 13:01:10 I use clisp sometimes, but not in earnest 13:01:56 on OSX, Clozure CL is a good choice I hear 13:02:02 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-94-44-38-254.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:02:48 <_8david> Clozure CL is also a good choice on non-MacOS. 13:04:55 sbcl seems to have no line editing in the interactive mode :( 13:05:01 I hear CCL has a faster compiler but does less optimisation 13:05:08 <_8david> Wulf: rlwrap sbcl # helps a little 13:05:12 ITA software use both 13:05:35 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-30-152.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 13:05:47 Wulf: that's because you should use Slime 13:05:54 Wulf: its likely you'll want to use slime 13:06:02 clbuild will help set that up 13:06:25 there's also lisp in a box to provide it, but I've not used that 13:06:27 Emacs.. I won't use that, thanks :) 13:07:03 Emacs is the most sane way to use free lisp implementations 13:07:34 Wulf: you can always use your favorite editor and then just load the data from SBCL, or whatever Lisp you use. 13:07:37 but if you're into vi, there are some environments for CL there too 13:07:57 the purpose of an editor is editing files. 13:08:09 Wulf: you'll use Slime if you want to appreciate the full breadth of what Lisp can do for you. 13:08:28 Wulf: Emacs isn't an editor, though. 13:08:32 Emacs is a lisp environment that happens to have an editor written in it 13:08:37 Wulf: and what's the purpose of artificial restrictions? 13:08:40 I just want to play around with the list operators and then design+implement a small lisp-like language. 13:08:49 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:09:02 oh 13:09:12 so you're not actually interested in the breadth of what Lisp can do for you? 13:09:16 right 13:09:21 you might want to check out the various scheme implementations too 13:09:21 that is unfortunate. 13:09:31 scheme would indeed likely be more appropriate 13:09:47 quick, persuade him! 13:10:01 Ralith: you sound sad. :) 13:10:07 *Ralith* is sad. 13:10:09 *Ralith* goes to sleep 13:10:53 I'm too much into imperative programming languages and I don't like lisp; but it seems to be the sanest way to solve my problem 13:11:11 that's good, because lisp is imperative too! 13:11:12 Wulf: there are a bunch of minimal lisp implementations floating around, in c, javascript, lua, php, you name it 13:11:36 pick one in a language you're familiar with and it might make a fruitful start 13:11:51 Wulf: I understand where you're coming from, but there are aspects of it that are really hard to "get", until you try it within an envorinment that does away with most of the notion of programs-as-text, write/compile/run instead of read/eval/print. except for an exceptionally 1-1 way of representing parse-trees, without really parsing, I'm not entirely sure you'll be happy. 13:11:55 maybe LUA instead. 13:12:29 there is metalua which brings lispish macros to lua 13:12:34 tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:45 ooh! 13:12:45 plage [~user@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 13:12:50 Good afternoon! 13:12:56 hey 13:13:47 Axius [~hi@109.97.58.194] has joined #lisp 13:15:28 hi 13:15:30 Wulf: I've been spoiled by CL for years now, and only recently had to use another language for a specific purpose. it was new territory, language wise and environmentally-wise, the thing I had to had the potential to fuck things up, and I messed up trying to balance acquiring and releasing a mutex. I was nearly certain I would in advance, and was looking for something like CL's `unwind-protect', but nope. not available. 13:15:33 -!- mikol [~Michael@AMarseille-753-1-20-81.w80-9.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:15:33 spoiled. 13:15:36 mikol [~Michael@AMarseille-753-1-32-251.w80-9.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:16:21 -!- Axius [~hi@109.97.58.194] has quit [Client Quit] 13:16:31 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 13:17:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-94-44-38-254.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:18 alland: C++ and gcc have that. Elsewhere, closures or blocks should get you mostly there. 13:17:19 don't most languages that have decent exception handling have unwind-protect? 13:18:15 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-94-44-38-254.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:19:30 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:54 usually, yes, they have equivalents. or at least, it's added at some point 13:20:54 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has joined #lisp 13:20:54 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has quit [Changing host] 13:20:54 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 13:21:07 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-56-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:21:31 lithper2_: RAII is harder to mess up. 13:22:09 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:15 -!- randa [~arand@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:23:15 pkhuong: I don't have the luxury of gcc, I ended up with a half-assed setjmp/longjmp thingy - while it's /doable/ you can't do it as a fumbling novice. 13:23:36 with `unwind-protect' you can. and then get to be spoiled. :} 13:23:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-94-44-38-254.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:27:17 and also, with an unwind-protect form, and the terseness of the code in between, it's easy to visualize the stack you're protecting - not to mention the help of the editor showing the matching parens, and how unwind-protect forces you to a /single/ form from where the stack starts winding, and complains if you use lexical variables outside of that scope, which is a really helpful indicator that you've messed up. 13:27:20 it just isn't the same. 13:29:20 dlowe [~dlowe@m6d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:51 (and then how trivial it is to make with-* macros around unwind-protect so it becomes a complete nobrainer and you can go to the pub without a worry) 13:36:40 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:44 -!- plage [~user@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:49 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-244-77.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:41:31 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43:17 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:28 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:43:45 plage [~user@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 13:48:31 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:34 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.104.251] has left #lisp 13:50:24 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:50:42 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-9-117.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:54:57 -!- ryepup1 [~ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 13:55:51 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:59:54 ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:01:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:04:03 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:04:12 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:04:15 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@m6d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:07:53 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:08:52 quack [~quack@213.13.202.56] has joined #lisp 14:15:22 alland pasted "box.lisp - sketch of piggybacking on CL GC for CFFI-adventures in alien lands" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95252 14:15:41 Is there a method combinator that concat's the strings returned from every method? 14:15:45 insights welcome 14:17:25 maybe use one of the collecting ones, and wrap it with something like (apply #'concatenate 'string (my-method)) ? 14:17:37 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:05 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756bba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:12 alland: probably 14:18:31 -!- quack [~quack@213.13.202.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:43 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:21:59 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:22:11 define your own? 14:23:18 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:25:10 alland annotated #95252 "about `box'" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95252#1 14:25:29 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:25:30 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:25:44 ANSI Common Lisp does not tell me how :( 14:26:04 ha-ha 14:26:17 :nconc and (apply #' concenate 'string ...) will do I think 14:27:35 or concatenate. I want `slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol' in my Pidgin. 14:27:57 define-method-combination 14:28:12 alland: switch to emacs 14:28:14 alland: you should use erc 14:28:38 then hook up to hippie-expand 14:29:06 jdz_ [~user@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 14:29:24 oh, i just found out Carbon emacs comes with erc preinstalled 14:29:45 after more than a decade of abuse + a physical injury, my left pinky and Emacs doesn't get along well, Viper mode blows, and wheat on dark-slate-green means coding. :} 14:30:21 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:30:24 so does 23.x on Win32 it seems 14:30:28 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:34 so does stock 23 14:31:02 if I could get away with using 19.34, I'd still be in love with Emacs. 14:31:12 ctrl is meant to be next to space, not under tab... 14:31:23 alland: that is just a lame excuse 14:31:58 what does 19.34 have that you need? 14:32:13 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 14:32:47 retro style 14:32:55 Last time I heard that excuse it took me 2 sec to fix the short combings 14:33:31 I know! I considered changing career, chopping down trees instead. more fresh air, less than 100% chance of permanent, physical injury, and you get to wield a chainsaw all day long. 14:33:49 so as to not have to make lame excuses, I mean. but here I am.\ 14:35:11 Sorry if I offended you. What I mean is, emacs23 is so much better. 14:35:17 you're a lumberjack and you're ok? 14:36:15 koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 14:36:15 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:35 knobo: right after 20.x, the problem with mapping to and from characters > 1 byte, or characters with codepoints was a real problem. I know I struggled for nearly a year, despite all the "here's how to fix it"s. but apart from that, it's not as much Emacs' changing for the worse, as much as the environment I run it in changing away from the assumptions on which it is built. 14:37:07 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:11 so it's more of a "I want to go back to the time when Emacs 19.34 was fresh" 14:37:58 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:37:58 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:37:58 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:38:17 I'm feel like Emacs is fighting me more than it's working for me now though, but that might be me getting older. 14:38:59 but I didn't have a 2560x1600 screen with 6 windows (Emacs windows) that I tried to assign semantics to either. 14:39:38 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:39:40 1280x1024, fvwm, Emacs 19.34 was bliss :} 14:40:37 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-56-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:42:55 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:44:01 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 14:45:16 knobo: one thing I'm struggling with, is beating Emacs into submission when it comes to which window it places "popups", and how I want it to behave after I dismiss the popup. that hickup was probably always there, but meant less. maybe there are good ways to fix that now, but I try to do it the way Gnus did then, and it doesn't work. and, changing key-bindings away from heavy-on-left-pinkey BREAKS. often. major and minor modes decide to eit 14:45:29 -!- ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:45:41 i just copied some fullscreen emacs config/functions 14:45:44 works quite well 14:45:56 to where? 14:46:18 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:21 to my .emacs 14:46:41 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 14:47:22 jdz: it would please me if you posted to somewhere I could gawk :} 14:47:59 ;;; From: http://monkey.org/~marius/emacs-as-a-tiling-window-manager.html 14:49:37 OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:52 -!- OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:51:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:52:24 thank you. but that's still left-pinky-heavy. and it also doesn't change ... ok, practical example: you're doing a load-system with slime, compiling a file yields an error, slime pops up it's sldb. you see what the problem is, go in and fix, choose retry-compile-file as a restart, you have another error on the same file, and now sldb pops up in a different window. after fixing the problems and dismissing sldb, the window-buffers are different 14:52:56 yes, that annoys me a bit, too 14:53:04 but i have not tried to solve that problem, yet 14:53:08 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:53:28 i think it would not be very hard to specify some patterns of buffer names and where they should pop up 14:53:41 and then there are ways to save/load window configurations 14:53:54 I have, and similar problems for different contexts, for a long time, failing, and falling out of love with Emacs. 14:54:02 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:54:38 the problem is, there is no alternative. 14:55:05 that I've found. nothing comes close to the comfort and convenience. 14:55:29 says quite a bit about the state of affairs outside Emacs. 14:55:38 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:55:52 rrice [~rrice@99.164.44.7] has joined #lisp 14:56:31 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:40 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:42 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:06 knobo: oh! just remembered: 19.34 was the last fast Emacs. 14:57:43 ah, emacs is still reasonably fast :) 14:58:06 for some value of reason :} 14:58:07 don't know about you, but i find all the Java IDEs a whole lot slower 14:58:38 maybe you're typing too fast 14:58:39 alland: I came to emacs from visual studio, emacs seems downright instantaneous to me 14:58:52 haven't tried any. I tried downloading some some, starting them and shutting them down. 14:59:35 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:00:44 ryepup: hehe, I bet. but my machine is a lot faster now, than 19.34 time, and I expect more. like QuickSilver behaviour: `anything' is nice, but it's slow because Emacs is slow, and it suffers from the same random popup-and-change-window-layout behaviour as the rest. 15:00:56 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:00:57 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:32 -!- rrice [~rrice@99.164.44.7] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:02:34 and have you tried icicles? my mind went to running poorly optimized GUIs on machines not built for it. I honestly don't think I've seen that shoddy responsiveness in 2 decades. 15:03:26 I hope programmers are thrown a bone, soon. 15:03:39 here's a dime, buy yourself a real computer 15:03:52 Cray? 15:04:04 they go for more than a dime :} 15:04:09 they're a bit dead now, no? 15:04:14 you're doing fluid dynamics in emacs? 15:04:35 erc should be able to colorize niks, right? 15:04:41 nicks even 15:04:46 no! text editing! and resolving sequences of key-chords to simple actions! 15:04:51 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:54 jdz_: that's off-topic! 15:05:06 and I have a 4x2.4GHz to do it for me 15:05:08 and it's slow 15:05:31 i don't believe you 15:05:34 stassats: oh damn, how i thought the topic still is about emacs :) 15:05:34 alland: you wouldn't happen to be using dodgy VESA X11, would you? 15:05:41 that can make random apps feel very slow 15:05:49 mmh, no, Vista 64 15:06:02 and you blame emecs? 15:06:06 umm, emacs 15:06:07 here we go 15:06:14 no, but you're right 15:06:30 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 15:06:57 it's a lot better, even on an old PPC Titanium PowerBook I have, a 22.x copy at least. in speed. 15:07:01 but the other problems remain. 15:07:44 maybe you have not enough memory? it's eighty megabytes and constant swapping, after all 15:07:55 alland: folks in #emacs might have suggestions 15:07:56 I wonder how feasible it would be to write a kind of server where students (and others) could submit their code, have it checked for things like identifier names (no CamelCase), indentation, idioms, etc. 15:07:56 and, whomever is the guilty part, Emacs is slow in this environment, I'm stuck with it for periods of time, and for example GCC is as much faster as I expect from the upgrades since the last 15-20 years. 15:08:01 alland: you might want to get Windows 7 15:08:06 (or, better, a proper OS :) ) 15:08:21 stassats: that made me laugh, thanks 15:08:22 Vista had serious speed issues with GDI apps under certain circumstances 15:08:33 alland: you're finding GCC _faster_? 15:08:42 what's the canonical vi expansion again? 15:08:53 It's been my experience that gcc (or at least its C++ compiler) gets slower faster than processors get faster 15:08:56 alland: that wasn't a joke, sadly 15:09:12 minion: lisp-critic 15:09:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``lisp-critic''. 15:09:16 rrice [~rrice@99.164.44.7] has joined #lisp 15:09:30 rsynnot: I'll try that - for reference, XP is also faster. I'll be stuck on a machine with Vista 64 for at least 7 weeks more though, if I want to feed my kid. 15:09:49 plage: there's a program to do that kind of checking called lisp-critic (see this old mailing list post: http://www.lispniks.com/pipermail/gardeners/2005-December/000423.html) 15:10:56 -!- rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:10:56 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 15:11:07 plage: I've never used it, but it probably wouldn't be hard to put a web form in front of it 15:11:18 rsynnott: yes, progressively faster at compiling programs of the same length and complexity, as more cycles per second have become available, along with more practical heap space 15:11:25 i updated lisp-critic to be asdf-loadable. 15:11:46 I don't know about C++, GCC is a C compiler for me. 15:11:52 http://xach.com/lisp/lisp-critic.tar.gz is it 15:11:57 ryepup: Hey, I didn't know about that. I'll have a look! 15:12:03 Xach: Thanks! 15:12:22 quack [~quack@213.13.202.56] has joined #lisp 15:14:47 It looks like it might be fairly easy to add new rules. 15:14:52 milanj [~milan@93.86.241.109] has joined #lisp 15:15:29 Xach: nice 15:15:52 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:17:02 and stylish, that must be in canonical-CL if there was such a thing 15:18:28 I'm stealing that. 15:18:29 jmbr [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:18:38 -!- jdz_ [~user@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Emacs wants to quit.] 15:19:18 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:19:39 marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:44 alland: Canonical does have cl one generation behind Debian. 15:19:59 Salland: so no canonical-cl 15:20:20 lisp-critic should be part of every CL-flavours. that's awesome. 15:20:26 quack: huh? 15:20:45 aha, I don't know what Canonical is 15:21:47 jewel [~jewel@41.31.56.214] has joined #lisp 15:21:58 hehe 15:22:01 alland: Ubuntu's sbcl is 1.0.29 (I think) while Debian's is 1.0.34. 15:22:33 I use ubuntu and clbuild 15:23:05 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 15:23:11 knobo: how do you use clbuild? 15:23:12 and emacs and coffy 15:23:22 I have installed debian's cl-sql, common-lisp-controller and sbcl. Now, I used clc-clbuild to update build a new sbcl, which I forced install to /usr/local/. 15:23:58 alland: well, I just use it to install sbcl and the lib's I use. 15:24:01 chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-vmqnfhjtvydnwrke] has joined #lisp 15:24:04 and slime 15:24:05 knobo: I have used clbuild alone, but now I use it with common-lisp-controller 7.0. 15:24:25 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-154-7.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:24:53 quack: is there some built in support for that? 15:25:02 So lisp-critic needs a sort of preprocessor to determine things like indentation, CamelCase, line length, etc. 15:25:09 knobo: yes, and it is fantastic. 15:25:18 jdz` [~user@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 15:25:27 6.18 here 15:25:34 quack: Great! it's soon Saturday :) 15:25:36 -!- smithzv_ [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:25:43 yes, I have installed 7.0 from debian. 15:25:50 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 15:25:57 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:03 knobo: ;-) 15:27:12 I sort of gave up on the CL library space with the death of Mudballs, and went back to nurturing my "externals" library. that's an exercise with little effort, but now I know where to turn if I get a headache :} 15:27:49 knobo: Debian Testing here, and I have 6.18 :/ 15:28:03 (on my server-thingy-thangy that is) 15:28:25 knobo: so I have now clbuild, libraries from asdf and libraries from debian, in that order in asdf:*central-registry*. 15:29:00 alland: sid has 7.0, sbcl 1.0.34 and clisp 1.48. 15:29:43 dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:12 upgrading 15:31:07 thomas001 [~thomas@p5B0F44B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:25 hi. i am currently thinking a bit about the lisp type system. i came accross this example http://codepad.org/FjQ68cbQ . while its clear for me that a (array fixnum) is not a (array number) because fixnum and number may be stored differently within the array....why is a (function (fixnum) t) a (function (number) t) ? i mean fixnum and number may be passed differently during the function call...? 15:32:52 peterwang [~user@125.34.209.27] has joined #lisp 15:33:01 -!- jdz` [~user@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: logoutoff] 15:34:24 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:34:25 thomas001: why would they be passed differently to a function? 15:34:57 maybe a fixnum is a 32bit integer and a number passes as 64bit pointer or some union or whatever 15:35:08 why should they pass the same? 15:35:20 -!- peterwang [~user@125.34.209.27] has quit [Client Quit] 15:35:43 if you are on a 64 bit architecture, registers are 64 bits 15:36:05 hm 15:36:05 fixunms are 64 bits, too, only some of the bits are used for tag 15:36:09 is there a way to store a compiled lambda function in any free implementation? 15:36:23 because evalling functions takes quite a while 15:36:44 madnificent: what do you mean by "store"? 15:36:45 I'd like to be able to store the functions persistently 15:36:52 jdz, but thats implementation spezific? might subtypep return different results on other implementations for the 2 function types? 15:36:57 minion: sb-heap-dump? 15:36:58 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``sb-heap-dump''. 15:36:59 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-154-7.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:03 jdz: save them outside of the lisp image 15:37:12 minion: sb-heapdump? 15:37:12 sb-heapdump: sb-heapdump is a library for SBCL which writes graphs of Lisp objects to disk in the same format SBCL normally uses in memory. http://www.cliki.net/sb-heapdump 15:37:21 stassats: looking :) 15:37:32 thomas001: I haven't read the spec in that great a detail, but it would be hard to implement it that way. Imagine you have a function f that accepts a fixnum. Now imagine you compile a function g that calls it, so you pass a 32-bit thingy. Then you redefine f to accept any number. Now you have to find g and recompile it. This is not usually done. 15:37:39 stassats: can it also read them back? 15:37:50 hm 15:38:12 madnificent: i don't know, but what would be the use if it couldn't? 15:38:14 illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:24 stassats: debugging 15:39:29 thomas001: So to avoid such difficulties, most implementations (at least I would think so) pass tagged values to functions that are callable from outside the compilation unit. 15:39:30 thomas001: undefined, rather 15:39:46 plage, imagine i have (defun f (a) (declare (fixnum a)) ...) and you do (declaim (ftype (function (number) t) t)) which is valid as (function (fixnum t) is a subtype of (function (number) t). 15:39:54 thomas001: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_subtpp.htm 15:40:17 plage, then a callee whould pass a pointer as it suspects f to accept number but f whould expect a fixnum 15:40:44 one reasone I have used clbuild, is that I need sbcl and slime to be the same version on different systems. 15:41:27 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-39-214.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:41:48 thomas001: Right, but "f would expect a fixnum" in most implementations means that it would take any (tagged) value and check that it is a fixnum. 15:42:20 unless safety is 0 15:42:23 -!- illuminati1113 [~user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:42:58 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:43:39 stassats: is that a defined behaviour of declaring safety to 0? 15:44:23 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-055-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:44 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 15:45:13 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:45:20 clhs 3.5.1.1 15:45:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_eaa.htm 15:46:05 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.31.56.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:46:49 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 15:47:45 also see the glossary entry of "unsafe" 15:48:21 it says "unsafe call is not a safe call" 15:48:28 very informative 15:48:29 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:48:30 porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:45 stassats: of "unsafe", not "unsafe call" 15:48:53 anyway, got to go 15:48:53 stassats: and worth mentioning I see 15:48:56 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 15:49:15 and unsafe says "not safe" 15:49:23 thomas001: Does that make sense? 15:49:25 that's weird. 15:49:52 though with a note 15:49:58 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 15:50:26 it reads to me something like "work your ass off towards fucking up, and you might succeed". 15:50:52 plage, yes..to some extend...i am just thinking about implementations where a fixnum is not a tagged number 15:52:05 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440197.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 15:52:56 thomas001: That could work, if you either accept crashes, or if you recompile caller code when the calle changes. 15:53:05 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:22 *plage* takes off. Lisp dinner tonight at home. 15:53:26 -!- plage [~user@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has left #lisp 15:53:26 plage: have you talked to mvilleneuve about Lisp written in Lisp? 15:53:31 oh fuck 15:53:32 oh :( 15:53:58 i wanted to state that the array type uses a different (imo) more saner sematic as function 15:54:18 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:54:46 marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:47 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:54:58 aren't they same? 15:55:06 marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:08 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:55:15 -!- Wulf [~wulf@f054101123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 15:55:15 (array 'ixnum) is not a subtype of (array number) 15:55:18 when counting my blessings, I count some for the X3J13 heads, and some more for the heads that implement and keep current their work. more time for sleep and play. 15:55:24 marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:47 perhaps number and double-float whould give a better example than fixnum 15:55:54 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:56:08 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:56:13 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:58:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:00:44 thomas001: have you read the CLHS entry yet? 16:01:25 alland, the subtypep entry? 16:01:30 madnificent: I will meet him tonight. He is one of the participants. 16:01:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-244-77.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:01:50 spiaggia: beach, you mean? 16:02:02 madnificent: Oh, yeah. Sorry! :) 16:02:07 thomas001: and links out from there. 16:02:15 *spiaggia* also takes off. :) 16:02:22 enjoy spiaggia! 16:02:39 Thanks! 16:03:44 "recognizable subtype", I think, is a lead here. I' 16:04:39 alland, to be honest, i don't see your point 16:05:05 m no expert in these lands, but the way I read it, I didn't expect to get consistent results from calling subtypep on two lists that happened to have function as their first symbol 16:05:27 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:06:23 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:06:25 jewel [~jewel@41.30.61.228] has joined #lisp 16:07:42 thomas001: oh I'not besserwissing, trying to read the spec with you 16:08:36 besserwissing.....;) 16:08:45 is this really an english word? 16:09:49 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:59 thomas001: doubt it! but back to clhs: if it can determine something useful about to functions that return T every time, it should be that they are equivalent 16:10:08 subtypep that is 16:10:13 two* 16:10:56 alland, in the function clhs entry i found the interesting statement "Thus, an ftype declaration for a function describes calls to the function, not the actual definition of the function. " 16:11:07 if the discriminator is T I mean. because in the CL typesystem, every value is a subtype of T 16:11:16 ah 16:12:00 to its really a bit useless when it comes to emiting the actual function call 16:13:07 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 16:13:52 TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 16:16:00 mh, yea, but it's ... practical to know about it in the other end of the call. 16:16:03 there are other rules to heed as well, on both ends of the call. 16:16:27 I'm looking at the Clozure CL code now to see how they've interpreted it 16:17:40 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:18:44 clozure cl is no common lisp, is it? 16:18:54 it is 16:19:02 thomas001: It is. Perhaps you are thinking of Clojure. 16:19:06 clojure is not though 16:19:08 oh sure 16:19:16 yes i was thinking of clojure 16:19:25 clozure is the openmcl thing? 16:19:31 thomas001: Yep. 16:19:57 clozure cl is incredibly readable, nice as a reference 16:19:58 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 16:20:17 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 16:20:20 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:16 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:21:37 ! 16:21:41 thomas001: ? 16:21:48 alland, ?! 16:22:03 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:22:04 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:21 thomas001: you want to check out ECL, Embedded Common Lisp - it generates C code for it's `compile' operator 16:22:45 that should be readable then 16:22:50 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229243174.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 16:23:31 nice idea 16:24:03 alland: is there a way to declare the return type of a function, as we declare the type of the arguments? 16:24:26 quack, return typ is part of the function typ specifier 16:25:10 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.30.61.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:25:22 alland, is there a way to directly print the c code similar to sbcl's disassemble? 16:25:38 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:25:42 -!- mikol [~Michael@AMarseille-753-1-32-251.w80-9.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 16:26:07 thomas001: I haven't actually used ECL for anything else than building a shared library, in anger 16:26:15 alland: :P 16:26:16 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:11 lithper2__ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 16:27:15 seems like the function specifier is only useful for infering the types of the calls arguments 16:27:41 madnificent: that woke you up 16:28:16 alland: I apparently have an ECL trigger in my brain 16:28:20 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:28:35 -!- lithper2__ is now known as lithper2_ 16:29:23 -!- Fufie [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:50 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:38 madnificent: can your ECL trigger point me to where ECL emits, for `unwind-protect' the C-code for the protected form and the cleanup-form? 16:33:10 no, sorry alland... I don't know much of ECL, it's just a trigger 16:33:10 alland: nothing special, most likely; it doesnt have to interact with C longjmp or C++ exceptions. 16:35:29 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 16:35:43 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-22-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:36:08 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-39-214.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:16 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:36:27 thanks, both. but, withouth them, how do you "mark" a point from which the stack can not unwind below, without jumping to some instructions? 16:37:21 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-7-168.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:37:53 without writing a massive apparate for edge cases, I mean 16:39:32 alland: probably with setcontext. 16:39:44 btw is there a declare-everything-inline-except-notinline declaration? 16:40:20 mk [~user@159.92.64.121] has joined #lisp 16:40:24 setjmp/longjmp does the right thing, but only if you get it right lexically (and you get no help from the compiler, and the problem here is that I"m fucking up, and I want help from the machine 16:40:40 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 16:40:48 -!- mk is now known as Guest60780 16:41:29 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:42:11 -!- hankhero [~Adium@static-213-115-115-100.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:42:47 lmhg [~user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has joined #lisp 16:43:07 alland: you don't. 16:43:29 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:43:34 You just have to check explicitly on non-local exits, and to jump to the handler at the end of protected forms. 16:44:24 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:44:30 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:44:31 that's what I'm doing. or trying to do. and right now it's working. but I'm anxious :} 16:44:32 If you have gcc extensions, destructor annotations can work well. 16:45:22 I have gcc extensions, and cl.exe extensions, but only the union of them, and only the ones with the same semantics 16:45:52 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:46:05 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:46:26 (or, if I trusted myself to get it right, the union of those for which you could in theory write macro wrappers for) 16:46:58 dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:01 Does anyone know how to suppress the "kitten of death" message when using SBCL on Windows? 16:48:06 wvdschel: recompile. 16:48:12 Not with cl.exe... You could macro something up with a "for" that only runs once, but that doesn't take care of returns. 16:48:20 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:48:22 dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:45 pkhuong: he asked for a way to suppress a message, not for 4-day-marathon challenge :} 16:48:48 That, or a call_with_foo function... Not particularly convivial in standard C. 16:49:14 alland: I'm told it's 10-15 minutes, if you have mingw. 16:49:27 alland: your computer is slow indeed 16:49:39 and, for starters, have you tried to install MinGW? 16:49:54 dlowe1 [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:54 I've compiled it earlier today in about 10 minutes 16:50:40 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:51:08 wvdschel: and how long did it take you to install MinGW? 16:51:16 3 minutes? 16:51:36 using the instructions on mingw.org? 16:51:49 dlowe2 [~dlowe@m6d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:14 nah just downloaded the installer, installed, googled for an msys-1.0.11.exe and installed that, then sbcl built just fine 16:52:40 it would take me at least 30 minutes just to navigate the fucking tree-widgets in the sourceforge page if I knew /exactly/ which packages I wanted to download. 16:52:55 wvdschel: right, so, just recompile. It's in the C runtime (src/runtime/), you can grep for the message 16:52:56 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:52:56 -!- dlowe2 is now known as dlowe 16:53:01 CPU- and network bandwidth aside 16:53:13 alland: I used the google cache version for proper searching :) 16:53:18 pkhuong: thanks! 16:53:41 that message kept killing my tron bot :) 16:53:58 I'm going to try that, wvdschel - last time I tried I had no functional GCC and make after msys install.\ 16:54:45 -!- dlowe1 [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:54:49 they seem to have fixed that 16:55:47 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:59 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:23 (and rather had to install seemingly random MinGW packages, that only complain after you have unpacked them about missing shared libraries, and only one at time, and each one requiring you to click on a fixed 5x5 pixel or so widget in a jungle of... argh. I hope the msys installer does it now, or I'm coming after you :) 16:58:00 -!- rrice [~rrice@99.164.44.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:58:04 nope. no gcc. 16:58:10 luis` [~user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 16:59:20 check the timestamp up there. I'm not the fastest gun, but I'm not that slow. 3 minutes it's not. 16:59:24 -!- luis` is now known as luis 17:02:01 howdy luis 17:02:06 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:12 alland: want the installer when I've built it? 17:03:50 yes please! 17:04:03 I'll upload it once it's done 17:04:08 thank you 17:04:21 you're welcome 17:04:40 So does anyone mind a :SEED argument to MAKE-RANDOM-STATE? 17:04:54 hey tcr 17:05:19 luis: half of #lisp will hang out in vienna in a week, what about you? 17:05:54 tcr: as long as it's not 0e9c6ee8-0f97-40d8-b048-ce85fa747254, I don't mind 17:06:36 tcr: as long as there are sensible constructors provided (mirroring what alland said) 17:07:59 Uh I'm not getting either of you... bear with me I just came back from an efficient algorithm exam :-) 17:08:30 m-r-s nil :seed #36R7777vn53qcgmh24 ? 17:08:38 tcr: half of lisp in vienna? 17:09:15 Common 17:09:25 lmhg: yup 17:09:38 tcr: would you please give me a link? 17:10:02 that's bash.org material. 17:10:12 It's the non-web half of #lisp (: 17:10:22 lmhg: Hopefully there'll be a blog posting about it on planet.lisp later today 17:10:32 -!- pjb [~t@194.Red-79-149-143.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: 'Need to reboot this MacMini... You wouldn't believe the bugs you still find in 2010 in MacOS...'] 17:10:34 lmhg: 27th feb, metalab 17:10:44 all you need to know, see you there 17:10:51 tcr: from one of the other half, I presume? 17:11:01 tcr: lol, thats where i am heading to now 17:11:06 tcr: thank you, see you then 17:12:37 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:13:39 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:15:52 repeating myself, but I hope on a polite freqency: do any of you care to share thoughts on http://paste.lisp.org/display/95252 ? 17:16:24 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@m6d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:33 -!- silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has quit [Quit: silenius] 17:19:51 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:20:51 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:51 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:20:58 luis: your employer's using allegro, right? 17:21:24 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:49 luis: could you try to figure out what happens when you pass nil as state, and a seed to their make-random-state? 17:23:03 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:23:18 (make-random-state) 17:23:19 makes me chuckle 17:23:34 isn't it Franz Lisp again? 17:24:01 I want to (make-random-state) 17:24:43 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:29:05 luis: ping 17:29:55 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440197.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:30:33 ICMP 1 17:31:32 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:31:36 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:33:07 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:35:54 perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #lisp 17:36:58 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:38:42 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40:58 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-9-117.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:41:35 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 17:41:45 antoszka_ [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:43:52 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:46:04 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:46:46 -!- antoszka_ [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:43 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:36 Wulf [~wulf@f054101123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:58 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:14 marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:19 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 17:52:33 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:04 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 17:55:33 SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:58 If I have a functions x,y,z how can I get the same result as (list (y (x)) (z (x)) ) with calling x only once? 17:57:46 (let ((x x)) (list (y x) (z x))) 17:57:51 oops 17:57:52 Wulf: Is this straight of your homework sheet? 17:58:01 sellout: it's not homework 17:58:04 let ((x (x)))...) 17:58:17 alland: so I have to use a variable for it 17:58:30 no, it's one way to do it 17:58:32 common way 17:59:51 but I'd like a way without using a variable 18:00:04 for what reason? 18:00:31 stassats: I hope that I don't have to fix my broken design 18:00:40 ?? 18:00:57 cool! 18:01:05 -!- lmhg [~user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:07 where did you go wrong, what do you have? 18:01:13 Wulf: that doesn't sound like a reason 18:01:39 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 18:01:41 it's a reason, albeit a terrible one 18:01:52 I'm trying to invent+implement a small lisp like language; and I hope that I don't need variables 18:02:04 that sounds like a solid place from where to start fixing something. :) 18:02:15 lambda calculus! 18:02:30 except there are variables all over the place 18:02:39 only not in the way you usually think about them 18:02:49 it's turtles all the way down... 18:03:20 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 18:03:36 Wulf: take a look at unlambda 18:03:42 it has no abstractions 18:03:47 symbols in Lisp are, well, different. they are first class objects. 18:04:07 they have bindings to values, or not, depending on context 18:04:26 certainly; property lists & what not 18:04:46 the context can be lexical or dynamical (stack), depending on how you declare the behaviour of the binding 18:05:14 -!- splittist [~5502c13e@gateway/web/freenode/x-fovsfznhcekucgkv] has quit [Quit: Who knew Geneva had a spaceless hackerspace?] 18:05:14 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 18:06:05 certainly; but I think Wulf is refering to lisp as a generic, not as a short name for Common Lisp 18:06:49 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:07:53 -!- chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-vmqnfhjtvydnwrke] has left #lisp 18:08:05 chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-vmqnfhjtvydnwrke] has joined #lisp 18:08:37 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:50 Wulf: take a look at stack languages like Forth or Factor 18:09:09 ok - but in (progn (x) (x)) x would still be evaluated twice as a function call, in the context of still being something to do with Lisp 18:09:14 or function programming languages, like APL, A+, K, J, Q, &c. 18:09:19 tcr: I think that stack based languages are too hard to write/read for a human 18:09:31 But a language without variables not? 18:09:39 tcr: don't know 18:09:52 kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 18:09:53 well, tacit programming can be a bit obtuse to break into 18:10:10 I mean, a stream of characters that does something "magically" is not always fun. 18:11:25 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:12:09 pjb [~t@194.Red-79-149-143.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:14 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-189-221.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:12:20 chupish: after years of living inside CL, I forgot how to think about programs in terms of text 18:12:28 for a human? they were teachable, last time i checked 18:12:35 I remember now, though, but it was a painful ride to get back here 18:12:41 certainly, but can be obtuse 18:12:43 cheers all 18:12:44 -!- chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-vmqnfhjtvydnwrke] has quit [] 18:13:58 so, who want to write a program editor? 18:14:42 yea, me too. 18:14:58 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:15:20 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:16:07 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 18:20:43 kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:59 sebyte [~sebyte@213.229.74.8] has joined #lisp 18:21:15 holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:23 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 18:23:46 a really novel idea would be: let's make an abstraction to create a window in one/some/most-of the contemporary program environments, make it respond to some of the most basic input that Emacs recognize, implement some things that would be really effing nice to have available for programmers around, then abandon the thing in a state where you can't use it at all. 18:23:55 I hear that one has been used, though. 18:24:04 so, not novel, as such. 18:24:26 colstraker [~colstrake@ip68-100-190-176.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:40 hi guys, postmodern returns dates as 'simple-date objects' (write syntax #). how should I go about writing a function simple-date-object-p? 18:25:00 (typep object 'simple-date:date) 18:27:00 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-77-172.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:27:55 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-4.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:27:57 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-255-72.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:32:03 Harag pasted "Where'd my slot go?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95263 18:32:41 stassats: damn that's easy - still inching my way on the first rung of the OO ladder - thanks 18:32:57 I am missing something obvious... 18:33:31 without looking: wrong package? 18:33:50 eish 18:34:24 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:41 right 18:35:08 -!- Wulf [~wulf@f054101123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 18:36:12 dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:26 besides package, you're trying to access slots of a class object, not an instance of that class 18:36:26 it's like magic. 18:36:59 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:37 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:42:13 cl.exe doesn't actually restore the environment as i was at setjmp-time. encouraging. 18:42:45 time for gunning. have fun! 18:42:59 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:25 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:43:26 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-171.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 18:43:55 stassats: but I want to access the slots of the metaclass (which is simple-data-widget-class) ...is the metaclass only available once you have an instance of the class using it as metaclass? 18:45:10 jarc [~user@c-4ffae255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:45:12 if that's what you want, you can access them 18:45:34 -!- jarc is now known as wreak 18:45:41 ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has joined #lisp 18:46:04 well thats whats not working for me 18:46:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:46:21 i wrongly parsed your sentence 18:47:25 my debugger is broke please explain 18:48:33 instances have slots (generally), so if you want to access a slot, you need an instance of that class 18:49:43 dlowe [~dlowe@m2d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:55 Notably, even if that slot is of class allocation! 18:50:05 It's like magic except less magical 18:50:10 Hence the procurement of a prototype object by classes. 18:50:36 Algid [~dash@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:29 ok ok I was being thick ;P 18:51:32 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:30 ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:31 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:47 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:55:34 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 18:58:19 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.139.156] has joined #lisp 19:01:12 saikatc_ [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:00 splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:03:02 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:03:02 -!- saikatc_ is now known as saikatc 19:03:05 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.139.156] has quit [Client Quit] 19:03:14 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 19:08:25 pnq [~gaiug@AC81DC53.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:34 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 19:10:37 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@m2d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:13 is it at all feasible to have a macro in package A (that does a defclass with a metaclass) that it called from package B with out getting into package hell? 19:11:28 chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-ezfyusbpjyjnqmrh] has joined #lisp 19:12:06 easily. 19:12:21 package hell is a myth. 19:12:23 dlowe [~dlowe@m6d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:41 could you point me to a example please 19:13:13 export the macro's name from package A, use it in packge B 19:13:19 that's it! 19:13:49 mmmm 19:13:58 Harag: we can't very well give you an example of the code you want to write. Try writing it, and if it doesn't work, come back to us and give us the example in lisppaste 19:14:11 well thats not working for me 19:14:35 ok I will build a complete example 19:14:51 -!- colstraker [~colstrake@ip68-100-190-176.dc.dc.cox.net] has left #lisp 19:15:18 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:01 I'm having an issue where a compiler error, passing through SLIME/SWANK gives a new type error.... 19:19:09 rpg pasted "compiler error signal passing through SWANK/SLIME causes error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95269 19:19:17 -!- pnq [~gaiug@AC81DC53.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]] 19:21:38 Hm. Seems like very hairy format directive in error string is implicated.... 19:22:15 -!- perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:30 yes that's a bug in swank-allegro.lisp 19:24:35 Ah. No. But in SWANK-BACKEND::LOCATION-FOR-WARNING 19:24:38 location-for-warning 19:24:48 tcr: two minds with but a single thought! 19:24:49 what acl version is this? 19:25:31 8.2 19:25:38 add a format statement that prints the LOC lex var 19:25:50 They may have changed their internal location format 19:26:05 Do you also have an earlier version available? 19:26:13 would be nice to compare 19:26:42 -!- smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:49 rpg annotated #95269 "loc lexvar" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95269#1 19:27:13 tcr: Yes, I still have 8.1 19:27:26 could you let that format statement in, and compile a file which will result in compiler warnings (e.g. due to unused variable etc) 19:27:30 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-184-120.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:27:51 and could you also try with 8.1 19:28:00 and paste the content of LOC 19:28:34 tcr: I can actually see the problem. The object I have here has TWO copies of the file position as its cdr, so location-for-warning gets (filename pos pos) instead of the (filename pos) it expects. 19:28:43 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:28:56 Hang on... 19:29:13 perhaps it's (file start end)? 19:30:35 rpg annotated #95269 "location printed by ACL 8.2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95269#2 19:31:10 tcr: OK, now will restart emacs and try with 8.1... 19:31:39 well wait 19:31:44 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:52 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 19:31:53 try with some other notes 19:31:59 for unused variables, reader errors etc 19:32:01 -!- drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:07 we should rule out it's not (file start end) 19:32:48 rpg annotated #95269 "location printed by ACL 8.1" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95269#3 19:33:22 Harag annotated #95263 "Code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95263#1 19:33:23 tcr: sorry --- made the change right away.... 19:33:57 tcr: any idea what might trigger a compiler-note with a start != end? 19:34:31 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:02 well you should try, (defun f (x)) (defun g (x) (declare (ignore x)) x) (defun h (x) ,@x) 19:38:39 tcr: Those give compiler warnings, not compiler notes, so the location printer is not triggered. 19:40:08 hm? 19:41:01 tcr: compiler-warnings and notes, AFAICT, go through different paths. Let me verify that... 19:41:04 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:22 osaka [~fkn@pool-71-100-37-50.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:57 tcr: No, sorry --- that's wrong. 19:42:27 The reader-error goes through a different path, but those compiler-warnings should be triggering that format statement. Only they aren't. 19:42:54 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@m6d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:43:41 yes that's true for reader-errors 19:43:50 are those not of type cl:warning? 19:44:00 Hmmm, even after removing the kitten of death message, I keep getting one newline on stdout at startup 19:44:01 you can break into handle-compiler-warning 19:44:09 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:31 marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:32 any idea why that would be? 19:44:33 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:44:48 marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:50 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:46:20 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:47:10 hankhero1 [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:47:10 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:49:02 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:05 rrice [~rrice@76.211.11.178] has joined #lisp 19:49:43 -!- wreak [~user@c-4ffae255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: zZz] 19:49:54 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-61-82-250-66-98.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:14 tcr: OK, hang on... 19:51:31 rpg: I have to go now. See you tomorrow. 19:51:37 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:54:55 Xach: so any idea what I am doing wrong? 19:56:18 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:56:51 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:04 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 20:00:13 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:52 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-118-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:46 Harag: stassats already explained that to you. 20:05:18 xach I pasted the code for the macro 20:05:31 Harag: yes, and his explanation is confirmed. 20:05:49 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-189-221.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 20:06:04 ok you lost me 20:06:11 Harag: you are trying to get a slot named HT-WFX-EXAMPLES::RENDER-WIDGET-P, but the slot is actually named HT-WFX::RENDER-WIDGET-P. 20:06:30 Harag: you do not export RENDER-WIDGET-P from HT-WFX, so the :use in the examples defpackage doesn't help. 20:06:31 -!- mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:23 so I have to export every slot symbol used in ht-wfx? 20:07:54 if you want to 20:07:55 Harag: if you want to refer to slots by their names, you need to use their actual names. how you do that depends on what you want. 20:08:31 you can access by ht-wfx::symbol, or export and use it 20:09:59 thats nasty... 20:10:16 well thanx for the help 20:11:30 Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:53 -!- illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:13:18 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:29 robwolfe [~user@ip-79-175-248-34.cable.smsnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:15:34 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@133.0-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:16:12 Harag: hint: if you're exporting slot names, you're probably doing it wrong... in this case you shoud be exporting an accessor called CLASS-RENDER-CHILDREN-P and not the name of the slot... 20:16:35 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-128-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:08 drewc: thanx I came to the same conclusion moments ago... 20:17:13 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-118-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:17:18 Harag: brilliant! :) 20:17:25 lol 20:17:53 the above style point being valid and good, the fact is that somebody is missing some rather basic things about CL symbols, which is Not Good 20:17:59 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 20:18:09 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-128-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:19:06 yeah well cmm ...some one has been avoiding symbols like the plague because of these little issues 20:19:53 perdix [~perdix@dslb-088-071-192-057.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:53 -!- perdix [~perdix@dslb-088-071-192-057.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:19:53 perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #lisp 20:20:20 dlowe [~dlowe@12.154.28.10] has joined #lisp 20:20:36 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-128-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:02 Harag: these little issues are caused by 'avoiding symbols', whatever that means :P 20:21:07 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-128-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:24 i get that a symbol is package bound ... just some how I expected the symbols to be exported when I exported the metaclass...but hey..I did not export the metaclass only its symbol 20:21:43 you don't export classes 20:22:05 you export symbols.... period. those symbols usually name something in your package 20:22:15 Harag: see www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 20:22:24 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-128-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:23:49 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@133.0-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:24:11 i'll leave the question about why you're using the MOP before you've learned about INTERN an open one. 20:24:30 lol 20:24:34 -!- Guest60780 [~user@159.92.64.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:32 drewc: That's the ANSI Common Lisp of package documentation 20:28:17 Xach: that fair... is there a better resource? 20:28:34 *drewc* will start writing 20:28:54 -!- chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-ezfyusbpjyjnqmrh] has quit [] 20:28:57 "The thinking man's guide to common lisp packages" 20:29:33 http://l1sp.org/pcl/defpackage is a start 20:30:13 drewc: the first page of that PDF assumes that make-package with no :use list will by default include the common-lisp package. not so in sbcl. 20:30:32 drewc: there are other errors, and of course the "can you believe how stupid packages?" sense throughout 20:30:41 "...stupid packages are?" rather 20:31:34 Xach: i agree 100%, and will no longer direct people there.... saving them from garret's madness is a noble task. 20:31:41 is that pdf wrong or is it just the differences in implementations? 20:32:02 ... 20:32:12 -!- robwolfe [~user@ip-79-175-248-34.cable.smsnet.pl] has left #lisp 20:32:35 if the pdf doesn't mention the differences in implementations, and claims to be a guide to packages, it's pretty useless... so both. 20:32:53 bytecolor: that's why we have a standard, you see. 20:32:57 well, some of the examples just did not mesh with sbcl, which left me to wonder if the doc was in error 20:32:58 ok 20:33:50 it's a badly-designed example 20:36:19 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:37:01 one of you enlightened fellows _could_ ummm update it. It is seven years old after all. That's ancient! ;) 20:37:06 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-4.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:37:17 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:38:22 Demosthenes [~demo@74.191.76.105] has joined #lisp 20:38:42 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@12.154.28.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:40:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:40:41 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:40:45 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:25 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:50:18 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 20:54:30 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:56:42 prxq [~mommer@f051065183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:45 bytecolor: I've told Ron about that mistake. No updates. Also, as someone who hates and avoids packages, he's not the first person I'd look to for good documentation on the topic. 20:58:37 hi 20:59:12 hi prxq 20:59:47 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082F437.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:56 hi fe[nl]ix 21:01:03 prxq: are you coming to the meeting in Vienna ? 21:01:39 -!- quack [~quack@213.13.202.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:05 fe[nl]ix: no, unfortunately. 21:02:16 fe[nl]ix: how often does it take place? 21:02:56 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082C809.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:04:43 marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:45 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:04:53 I think it's a singular event 21:05:01 marcelinollano [~marcelino@162.Red-79-150-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:06 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:05:25 -!- smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:06:15 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:39 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-236-118-92.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:39 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-236-118-92.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:06:39 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 21:07:10 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:08:43 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-171.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:08:48 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:09:52 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 21:10:07 c.l.ada has a lot more traffic than c.l.l. 21:10:28 that really surprises me. 21:11:12 prxq: I suspect they might have actually bigger community :D 21:12:34 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:38 p_l: do you know someone that prgrams in ada? 21:12:42 they are not meeting in vienna, though. 21:12:48 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-171.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:14:46 prxq: not really, but I don't know anyone in the market that I suspect Ada to be used the most 21:14:56 well, don't know programmers in that market :) 21:15:49 prxq: I do 21:15:54 but I recall it being still used rather widely in embedded space... 21:16:44 prxq: lots of people here in Rome working for military or ESA contractors 21:16:51 trebor-dki pasted "a first try on a multiple-value-setf, may someone give me hints about it?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95279 21:17:14 fe[nl]ix: interesting 21:17:54 i meant "first try on a m-v-setf macro..." 21:19:11 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:19:40 Xach: ahaha, noted 21:19:42 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:09 how about this "wide spectrum programming language" quality of ada. Is that real? / can it be done in lisp? sounds like one of those solutions to problems one does not have in lispland 21:22:40 what is a wide spectrum programming language? 21:22:53 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-22-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:08 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-22-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:24:07 JonSmith: allegedly, a way to mix low level with high level stuff. I had never heard of it before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide-spectrum_language 21:24:19 I kind of do that with lisp and macros, but i start at a fairly high level and build to an even higher level 21:24:38 seems kind of like the logical conclusion of 'structured programming' 21:25:04 prxq: it's real, and it's possible to be done on Lisp, but you'd require implementation-specific stuff to go low-level, I'd say 21:27:04 mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.23] has joined #lisp 21:29:29 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has joined #lisp 21:29:40 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:33:15 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:33:43 -!- xan is now known as xan_ 21:34:54 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-22-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:36:37 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-239-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 21:38:05 dlowe [~dlowe@12.154.28.10] has joined #lisp 21:38:23 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-22-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:40:30 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756bba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:51 trebor_dki: there is already a m-v-setf-like-thing 21:41:05 -!- oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:41:19 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.139.156] has joined #lisp 21:41:56 -!- pdponze [~pierre@144.85.124.96] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:26 trebor_dki: it is (setf (values place1 place2 place3) value1 value2 value3) 21:43:36 trebor_dki annotated #95279 "i do not get it shorter and i do not get rid of that (eval form)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95279#1 21:44:08 ups, sorry Xach, i was not reading here while trying to make it better. 21:45:03 Xach: thanks 21:45:18 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:46:27 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.139.156] has quit [Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info] 21:47:19 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.139.156] has joined #lisp 21:47:41 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.139.156] has quit [Client Quit] 21:47:59 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.139.156] has joined #lisp 21:54:24 oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:32 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.139.156] has quit [Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info] 21:56:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:59:05 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:01 -!- thomas001 [~thomas@p5B0F44B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:34 *Xach* is ready to party, Lisp-style 22:03:33 Xach: parens not at home? 22:03:49 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:53 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.23] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 22:05:58 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: I will end on that high!] 22:06:09 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.139.156] has joined #lisp 22:07:31 prxq: hahaha, good one :) 22:07:44 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:07:57 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 22:08:15 luis` [~user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 22:08:20 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:48 jmbr_ [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:09:00 frgo [~frgo@p5B16C53D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:09 felideon` [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 22:10:09 What's the preferred way to resize images (PNGs, JPGs, GIFs) from lisp these days? Cl-gd looks good, but was curious about anyone's first hand experience. 22:10:31 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:41 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:41 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-055-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 22:10:42 pjb` [~t@194.Red-79-149-143.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:42 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:42 -!- luis [~user@r42.eu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:42 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:10:42 -!- pjb [~t@194.Red-79-149-143.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:51 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:10:52 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@74.191.76.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:10:52 francogrex [~user@115.36-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:10:58 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:11:27 smanek: i use sb-ext:run-program and convert. the imagemagick folks thought i was crazy for not using a binding, and i probably am. 22:11:30 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:11:46 drewc: therep? 22:11:51 i haven't looked at the binding, though, because run-program works fine for now. 22:11:54 rpg: T 22:11:58 -!- _8david [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12:04 oh, did i forget to reply last night? 22:12:06 thoughts about what to do with XMLS? 22:12:23 _8david [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:27 yeah, i did forget :) 22:12:38 rpg: take it, do whatever you want with it :) 22:12:41 Xach: Thanks 22:12:54 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:13:13 rpg: i have no preferences either way with regards to version control, release process, or anything remotely related to XMLS :) 22:13:19 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:13:31 drewc: let me have a look at the project page.... 22:13:43 Who was the original author of xmls? 22:13:57 I think I had him over to my house for dinner once. 22:14:35 Miles Egan IIRC 22:14:46 Yeah. That's the guy. 22:15:01 BTW, I'm looking for someone to write an in-depth compare-n-contrast of CL, Scheme, and Clojure for Gigamonkeys Quarterly. 22:15:25 Miles "Cliki Stylesheet" Egan, right? 22:15:29 drewc: How do you wrangle the HTML page? 22:15:32 and he also wrote MACHO 22:15:51 -!- alec [~aberryman@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:16:52 gigamonkey: sounds like fun, i might be willing to put such a thing together, but i'm a little biased 22:16:56 *felideon`* nomiates drewc 22:17:11 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon 22:17:20 drewc: that's the trick. I want CL to win but I don't want it to be too obvious. ;-) 22:17:22 -!- holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:28 rpg: it's in /project/xmls/public_html/ 22:17:34 gigamonkey: ok, i can do that :) 22:17:51 holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:58 drewc: OK, if I can get my grubby hands on that, I should be OK.... 22:18:13 I'm kidding of course. The idea is to get at the platonic Lisp ideal by looking at a few reasonable instances. 22:18:23 If we decide the piece needs a Lisp to beat up on, we'll add Arc. 22:18:28 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.139.156] has quit [Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info] 22:18:59 rpg: i've added you to the group and all, so it should work fine... let me know if any of the permissions are not as they should be 22:19:16 drewc: OKey-doke. 22:19:35 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:18 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:20:57 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:21 gigamonkey: is that the approach the article should take? "what is lisp and how is it represented in >" 22:22:07 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:23:03 Something like that. Maybe some brief history. Note that McCarthy asked that no Lisp be called simply "Lisp" and then discuss the similarities and differences between those three, all taken as reasonable places to land in the Lisp space given certain desiderata. 22:23:25 And give the back of the hand in passing to newLisp and Arc as necessary. 22:24:47 so the intended audience are those with a passing interest in LISP looking to learn more about it in general, as well as those versed in one or more of these lisps and looking to see if the grass is greener? 22:25:03 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:11 Yes. 22:25:48 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-4.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:26:19 ok sounds like fun. you want an outline and a summary first? 22:26:50 -!- holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:54 Sure. I'm still working out how to deal with article proposals so you can be a guinea pig. 22:27:34 Though for this one you don't need to answer the normal main question of a proposal which is, "Why is this interesting?" because I already think it is. 22:27:41 yay! http://ic2.pbase.com/g3/09/644509/2/57327904.ePerEc058015.jpg <---- me 22:28:13 WTF!BBQ!!! 22:28:22 drewc: was that a ferret ? 22:28:44 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:20 i was a vegetarian for over 10 years, and for some reason the meat i craved most was guinea pig... i've never eaten one, but they trigger a primative response in my 'om nom nom' centre/ 22:29:23 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:29:40 i'm glad it wasn't a rat :-) 22:29:50 fe[nl]ix: guinea pig .. ferrets have no meat on them and it would taste like skunk :) 22:30:38 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:36 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:33:13 looks crunchy 22:33:34 -!- TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:33:43 strange fish 22:34:22 according to my religion I have to eat a little bit of pork every day. 22:34:29 -!- francogrex [~user@115.36-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:35:43 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:35:56 Trying out hunchentoot today, let's hope things go well :D 22:36:45 hunchentoot is one of the most pleasant application to play with. 22:36:49 one of my friends is trying to get into screencasts as a publishing model - anyone here interested in recording any screencasts for lisp ? 22:37:03 gigamonkey (et al): where is Scheme's forte compared to CL? I see Scheme used in embedded cases (which seems like a good idea over a home-brew scripting language) and academic stuff. CL seems more suited for real-world uses (with the packaging and type stuff). Given that Arc is an MzScheme app and it handles "Hacker News" OK, perhaps scheme is a viable Lisp as well? 22:37:37 his company will handle the hosting etc, and if ppl want to monetise their screencasts the company handles royalties too ... 22:38:42 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-219-106.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:38:59 I really dislike screencasts/video tutorials. It's like I have set aside time for it rather than reading whenever I can, skimming/scanning as much as I want to, jumping around, etc. 22:39:19 yeah for power users they suck, but i think theyre great for newbies 22:39:46 also depends on the quality - the sicp lectures are pretty awesome :) 22:40:11 <_3b> helps if they can be played at faster than normal speed 22:40:20 Dawgmatix_: what beginners would buy Lisp screencasts? 22:40:44 <_3b> lithper2_: depends on the lisp, autolisp stuff would probably sell 22:40:50 -!- prxq [~mommer@f051065183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: good night] 22:40:50 well lithper2 - the power of the long tail 22:41:11 means that people curious about functional programming and paul graham fans might be open to buying ? 22:41:18 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:41:36 felideon: I think the railscasts are really well done 22:41:58 I previously didn't care for them, but if they're short (5-10 minutes) and cover a topic succinctly, it's quite pleasant 22:42:03 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:42:04 i'm not sure the demand for paid Lisp screencasts is there. 22:42:17 he is willing to host them for free too :) 22:42:25 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:42:56 so if someone wants to do outreach ... this might be a good platform 22:43:01 rickmode: my impression is that advanced Scheme implementations have some of the same advantages of advanced CL implementations, but the line of what is standard functionality is drawn very differently. 22:43:23 rickmode: I've seen Bigloo and Chez Scheme applications that are really remarkable, but totally unportable to any other scheme. 22:43:53 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:44:32 Dawgmatix_: lectures are different. I'm sure the SICP are great 22:44:43 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:47 seangrove: yeah, maybe short ones aren't that bad. 22:45:00 Xach: so you could (more easily) end up stranded on an island with scheme 22:45:52 seangrove: if you breeze through something in 10-15 minutes that might have taken you 30+ minutes to read or go through yourself, then maybe 22:45:58 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: rebooting...] 22:46:23 TR2N` [email@89.180.200.252] has joined #lisp 22:46:42 also for eg - the clojure videos by rich hickey are pretty great 22:48:44 Dawgmatix_: there is a major problem with targetting the beginners market. 22:49:18 you are actively working to ensure your customers no longer need you... not a good business model :) 22:50:27 <_3b> depends on if that is the entire model, it could just be a trick to get more lisp jobs available, and be positioned to be an 'expert' when the tutorial market dries up :) 22:50:29 pnq [~gaiug@ACA219EE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:55 depends on the content - for eg if your material is an introduction to the concepts and applications of xyz 22:51:09 and if you get it done by someone who knows their stuff 22:51:22 then you can get people to come back for xyz, pqr, .... 22:51:48 for eg - i wasted many days recently learning css. a definitive intro would have been nice 22:52:12 that's a lot of handwaving... i'm out. 22:52:37 hehe all i was trying to do here is to connect people from #lisp to someone who is looking for content 22:52:44 Dawgmatix_: how much would you have paid for a decent intro? 22:52:58 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:53:00 between 9.99 and 29.99 22:53:11 it takes hours to do a good screencast 22:53:11 what book did you buy? 22:53:15 i finally found a definitive intro dvd (andy clark) and bought it for 23.99 22:53:24 was worth every penny 22:53:28 well, that's something i guess 22:53:49 i would never even thing of buying such a thing... i still can't see the market... i'm out. :P 22:53:54 think* 22:54:00 :) 22:54:51 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:16 then again, my intro to CSS was DSSSL... which, now that i think about it, means i was using scheme in '95! :) 22:56:50 *drewc* should change his road to lisp to mention that fact :) 22:57:09 rickmode: I'm not saying one way or the other whether Scheme is a great practical language. But I think it's an important member of the larger Lisp family. 22:57:21 Dawgmatix_: the issue today for a new CL-er is that there isn't one true road to CL. Any information will be platform specific and become rapidly stale. There's a lot to learn up front between getting Emacs and SLIME going along with SBCL or CCL or CLISP or.... Or maybe you go with Allegro or LispWorks or.... And then you hit the packaging madness... ASDF, ASDF-INSTALL, clbuild.... 22:57:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-37-158.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:57:34 scheme is not a great practical language.... some schemes are great practical implementations. 22:57:45 Actually, drewc, perhaps elisp should be in the mix too somehow. We'll talk about this, obviously. 22:58:18 :) 22:58:30 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has joined #lisp 22:58:35 gigamonkey: good point, if we're talking platonic LISP, we have to talk about elisp too i think. 22:58:35 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:59:00 -!- oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:59:53 -!- pnq [~gaiug@ACA219EE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:13 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:00:19 I'd be inclined to leave out AutoLisp but it'd be worth a peek to see if there's anything particularly interesting about it or the history of how it came to be that could be mentioned in passing. 23:01:25 Hrm, i must be doing something completely stupid here http://paste.lisp.org/display/95288 23:01:50 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 23:02:15 Is it waiting for me to hit something...? 23:02:19 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:30 will GQ mainly focus on Lisp related stuff? 23:03:45 gigamonkey: There are so many Taos of Lisp, I'd like to see a few guideposts to avoid researching each path in depth. CL vs. Scheme. The flavors of CL (SBCL, CCL, Allergro, LispWorks). The various CL libraries (namely the various approaches for web development). 23:04:17 oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:51 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:06:11 lithper2_: No. In fact I need to be careful to make sure it doesn't look to a casual observer to be too much to do with Lisp. 23:07:20 But I've got had a bunch of folks proposing to write stuff about Clojure and I think what I'm proposing is a slightly deeper look at things, which is what GQ (which may have a new name very soon) *is* supposed to focus on. 23:07:32 *slyrus_* is in Taos 23:08:54 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 23:10:16 gigamonkey: Very cool, saw the hn headline a few days ago, didn't realize where the name came from :) 23:10:43 slyrus_: Taos ? 23:10:47 Alright, I'm guessing I should just kill this repl 23:10:58 It's not going to recover from defpackage :P 23:11:12 I mean "Taos" as plural of "Tao" as opposed to the country 23:11:17 <_3b> seangrove: C-c C-c and look at the backtrace? 23:12:28 ... nothing. C-c C-c doesn't seem to be doing anything. 23:13:10 <_3b> anything in *inferior-lisp* ? 23:13:12 TR2N [email@89.180.200.252] has joined #lisp 23:13:45 seangrove: is your lisp running? 23:14:21 -!- frgo [~frgo@p5B16C53D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:14:52 You better go and catch it! 23:14:52 <_3b> though i guess it could be https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/511072 23:15:39 -!- TR2N` [email@89.180.200.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:16:19 Xach: i set em up, you knock em down :D 23:17:24 fe[nl]ix: it's a place in New Mexico, USA 23:17:34 frgo [~frgo@p5B16BC73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:42 kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:26 lol 23:18:53 -!- frgo [~frgo@p5B16BC73.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:19:19 frgo [~frgo@p5B16BC73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:29 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:37 Suppose that could be it 23:19:43 I have no idea though, heh 23:20:11 *inferior-lisp* has nothing, but if I (+ 3 2) C-x C-e in it I get 5 in the bottom row 23:22:07 <[df]> that sounds like it's evaluating it as elisp 23:22:54 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:23:32 seangrove pasted "package" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95292 23:23:43 Maybe that sheds some light.. 23:23:53 Seems like if I require :asdf and :hunchentoot then it works... 23:24:08 Is that expected behavior? 23:24:31 TR2N` [email@89-180-204-185.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 23:25:22 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.200.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:25:31 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:25:38 seangrove: "The consequences are unspecified if packages denoted by use do not exist." 23:26:23 Ok, so that's my fault be not requiring the packages beforehand? 23:26:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:26:42 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e70d635.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:26:43 you don't require packages... require is generally used to load ASDF systems. 23:26:53 is there a way to load a file only if it hasn't been loaded yet in common lisp? 23:27:01 similar to ruby's require 23:27:34 wvdschel: not really, why do you need this? 23:28:31 -!- Algid [~dash@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:28:48 drewc: I don't really need it, but it would have made my life easier 23:28:59 but that's all just because i'm developing in a really bad way 23:29:47 i think your life would be easier if you develop in a not as bad way, rather than try and find ways to continue programming in a bad way :) 23:30:19 <_3b> well, you could just set a flag on load and test it before reloading 23:30:37 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:45 <_3b> similar to CL's require :p 23:30:55 Clojure's use of the JVM gives me the ick. Does this not bother anyone else? I'm not sure I buy the "bytecode VM are the wave of the future" argument given that CL does a fine job of native on-the-fly compiling. 23:31:19 <_3b> rickmode: not many CLs have huge amount sof money spent on nice JITs 23:31:21 _3b: yeah, i can think of a few ways to do it... but i don't think wvdschel actually wants or needs it :) 23:31:37 billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-23-233.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:37 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-23-233.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:31:37 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:31:43 drewc: point taken 23:31:54 rickmode: my primary dislike of clojure is that it 23:31:56 's java 23:32:05 <_3b> rickmode: which do on-the-fly recompiling based on current profile data etc. which is more than CL style on-the-fly compile when changed 23:32:08 I'm new to CL, so I'm still excited about the fact my code actually works 23:32:29 dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has joined #lisp 23:32:31 minion: tell wvdschel about xach-asdf 23:32:31 wvdschel: direct your attention towards xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 23:33:17 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:33:42 thx 23:33:51 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:34:01 I'm having some trouble making a struct from one package easily accessible in another 23:34:54 I don't really like having to type package-name::struct-field all the time, and I also don't want to list all fields in the export expression 23:35:26 is there a way to export all of the methods associated with the struct at once? 23:36:37 write them all at once in the export expression 23:36:41 _3b: I don't buy the compile argument. SBCL (AFAIK) compiles to efficient code. I presume the commercial Cl's are efficient. On the Java side, Sun's (now Oracle's) HotSpot wasn't the best JIT. JRockit beat it across the board in my own testing (large memory hungry app using weak references). Further I hit more than one instance where there was a strong desire to ship a natively compiled app. And in any case HotSpot crashes on a regular 23:36:42 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:51 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-239-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:37:30 stassats: I was thinking about something shorter than that, but if that's the way to go it'll do 23:37:40 wvdschel: why do you not want to list the _functions_ in the :export part? 23:37:47 <_3b> rickmode: it compiles to efficient /generic/ code, or specific code if you tell it types... js for example can inline code for a specific type after it sees it a few times, without you telling it anything 23:38:07 <_3b> rickmode: and it can automatically have a few type specific versions as needed, etc 23:38:29 has anyone created a library that would allow you to create a GTK GUI from XML directly, or nested lisp expressions similar to how some web libraries allow you to output HTML? 23:38:40 wvdschel: after all, that's the way it's done :) 23:38:42 <[df]> rickmode: personally I reckon llvm is the future 23:38:44 drewc: because if I modify the structure, I'll have to remember to update the :export as well 23:38:58 drewc: but if that's the way it's done, it's what I'll do 23:39:31 pnq [~gaiug@AC822F6C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:42 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 23:40:04 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:19 wvdschel: fair enough.. i usually don't export symbols until my idea of what i want to export is pretty solid. It changes somewhat, but it's not a problem really... you also have to remember to change the call sites after all. 23:41:32 drewc: true enough. It's not a big issue, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a better alternative before I continued 23:41:57 wvdschel: see M-x slime-query-replace-system if that kind of refactoring needs to happen 23:42:37 wvdschel: there are alternatives, but none of them are a good idea. You'll come to appreciate having all the information about a package in one place. 23:43:38 I'm not using slime at the moment - my linux broke on me after an Xorg update and it won't work reliably anymore (cursed video drivers), and Emacs on windows doesn't seem to work very well on my end 23:43:58 wvdschel: also, it's dangerous the think about exporting methods, or exporting fields or functions or classes.. you export symbols. 23:44:11 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-128-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:44:18 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:44:35 wvdschel: are you using lispworks or allegro? i'm sure their IDEs offers similar functionality. 23:45:03 otherwise, install virtualbox and run linux + lisp + slime in there... slime is _awesome_ 23:45:25 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:45:42 slime-export-symbol-at-point is really what you want, now that i think about it. 23:45:44 c|mell [~cmell@87.113.251.192] has joined #lisp 23:45:48 drewc: I'm using a textmate clone at the moment actually. I don't really feel like spending a lot of time on getting my windows environment to work, since I'm only waiting for a bit of spare time to show up and let me get some form of linux or bsd running again 23:46:03 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-4.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:46:29 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:46:41 I've got an ubuntu in virtualbox, and it has lisp and slime, but I don't like the way vbox handles X11, I guess I'm just spoiled 23:46:42 ouch, you're missing out. try the lispworks trial edition at least... having a real lisp environment is a must. 23:46:54 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-128-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:46:59 lithper2_: i think i saw some thing like that for vala...you might be able to use that 23:47:06 copy/pasting the the repl is just not quite the same 23:47:10 to the* 23:47:51 it works quite well for me so far, my program is very limited 23:48:22 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:30 I'd also like to focus on CL first, and not mix any new environment with it until I'm more familiar with the whole thing 23:48:56 you will never get familiar with CL if you are using it the wrong way, IMO, but to each his own. 23:50:06 wvdschel: you'll also be missing a lot of the beauty of The Lisp Way if you don't have a good environment. But I understand the desire to tackle one thing at a time. 23:50:27 wmdschel: Get a mac (or other *nix) install SBCL, recompile SBCL with multithreading (if needed). Install clbuild. Install SLIME with clbuild and tune your ~/.emacs. That was my n00b winning formula. 23:50:41 Speaking of which, if anybody wanted to take over Lispbox and actually keep it up to date, etc. I'd be happy to hand it over. 23:53:13 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:53:34 rickmode: I've been using linux for 9 years, and I've moved to using emacs a few months back, but I'm simply stuck on windows and have a project due on friday 23:53:59 I just thought I'd try to learn CL solving this problem, but then I lost my linux setup and now I'm stuck crippled 23:54:26 with no time to set up a decent environment AND finish the project 23:54:29 Harag: i know that it's supported by Gnome and Qt, but not sure if is available through Lisp. i'll check it out. thanks. 23:55:42 lithper2_: you should be able to use the vala stuff with foreign calls 23:56:27 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:48 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:58:43 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:00 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp