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02:43:40 malsyned: if the symbol some-function does not exist at the time that code is read 02:43:50 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:07 for example, if you're using something lazy-loaded or optional 02:44:09 ohhhh, clever. 02:45:00 personally I'd use INTERN (with an explicit package, too) 02:45:04 My experiment of reading swank in order to learn little hacks people don't often talk about is already yielding positive results. 02:45:45 "NEWS FLASH: #lisp says SWANK is a pile of hacks" 02:47:06 #lisp also recommends using it. Many useful things are held together by hacks. Occasionally, those hacks turn out to be essential. Those are the kinds of hacks I'm curious about. If SWANK is a pile of them, I've come to the right place. 02:49:58 Much of CL is a pile of hacks. 02:50:39 malsyned: read-from-string also does case normalization properly. 02:51:18 Zhivago, so that's why to use read-from-string instead of intern? 02:51:26 or at least, one argument for the approach 02:51:41 It avoids some complexity in that direction, at least. 02:52:56 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hvpzqqdzpskpyskd] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:54:50 -!- Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:58:52 -!- fatalnix [~Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 03:08:45 Romney2012 [~94e79e05@gateway/web/freenode/x-rsmbyiczzposjeiy] has joined #lisp 03:09:11 Hey all, what would be the lisp equivalent of ruby's 100.times { puts "hi" } ? 03:09:16 MITT ROMNEY at Yeshiva University in 2007: "In the current conflict, defeat is not nearly as dangerously close as it was during the darkest moments of the Second World War and the Cold War. There's no comparison between the economic and diplomatic, and military resources of the civilized world and those of the terrorist networks that threaten us today. "In those previous global wars, there were many ways to lose, and victory wa 03:09:28 and that is if we as a civilized world decide not to lift a finger to defend ourselves, or our values, and our way of life. "I will not be silent, you will not be silent. "Today, we can lead the world. We can and we must lead the world to do what it has sought for so many centuries-to accept different people and different cultures, to respect the inalienable rights of every child of God, and to welcome a time of peace and prosp 03:09:38 Vote Mitt Romney for President 2012 03:10:18 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 03:10:19 hahahaha, I like this much better than the chimpout people. 03:10:39 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 03:10:42 seangrove: (dotimes (i 100) (print "hi"))? 03:11:04 Perfect! 03:11:10 (loop repeat 100 do (print "hi")) 03:11:41 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:12:13 (map 'nil (lambda (*) (print "hi")) (make-list 100 :initial-element nil)) 03:12:25 (labels ((rec (i) (when (> i 0) (print "hi") (rec (1- i))))) (rec 100)) 03:12:43 (prog (count) 03:12:45 ... 03:13:39 (defmacro do-100 () `(progn ,@(loop repeat 100 collect '(print "hi")))) 03:14:18 (prog ((count 0)) :loop (print "hi") (when (> 100 count) (incf count) (go :loop))) 03:15:15 *seangrove* is reminded of pushing a small snowball down a snow covered mountain... 03:15:17 hm 03:15:19 actually 03:16:10 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night folks] 03:16:22 I've been thinking that DO would probably be a better name for what PROGN does. :) 03:16:44 this is probably the closest to the ruby version: (defmethod times ((n integer) function) (loop repeat n do (funcall function))) (times 100 (lambda () (print "hi"))) 03:16:46 Zhivago: i want DO for monad syntax! :) 03:17:17 You could then add while and until and so on clauses, so end up with (do (a) (b) (c) while (d)) 03:17:23 Well, that's what packages are for. 03:17:52 pjb` [~t@154.Red-79-149-149.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:55 fair enough 03:18:05 system.sequential-execution:do just doesn't have the same ring to it. 03:20:40 rikjasnon [~hell@81.172.53.138.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:55 arbscht_ [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 03:21:11 ``Erik_ [~erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:06 -!- rikjasno1 [~hell@81.172.53.138.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:50 -!- ``Erik [~erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 03:23:06 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 03:23:40 Isn't that what package nicknames are for? :) 03:23:50 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 03:26:35 -!- rme [rme@clozure-51821EF0.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:26:35 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:26:52 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.213] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 03:26:56 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:26:56 -!- pjb [~t@154.Red-79-149-149.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:30:28 Hrm, I typed (in-package :weblocks) and later noticed none of my variables were defined 03:30:40 and my slime prompt reads: WEBLOCKS> 03:30:50 How do I get back to cl-user> ? 03:31:01 (in-package :cl-user) > 03:31:11 Yup 03:31:22 Thanks for being my rubber ducky and listening to me guys :D 03:31:29 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:06 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:34:58 -!- smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:35:12 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:35:47 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:42 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:41:04 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:31 -!- dejones [~dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:46:53 dejones [~dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:14 -!- dejones [~dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47:22 dejones [~dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:36 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-prtjeodnxkhcxzin] has joined #lisp 03:51:44 -!- malsyned [~malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:55:21 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:56:49 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-prtjeodnxkhcxzin] has left #lisp 03:58:05 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7B23.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:02:18 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:04:35 benny [~benny@i577A7795.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:06:18 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 04:14:42 saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:59 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@230.192-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 04:15:41 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-19-86.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:16:06 -!- pjb` [~t@154.Red-79-149-149.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:27:16 drewc: You happen to have some starting material for UCW? 04:29:42 *cough* http://ifelipe.net *cough* 04:31:49 seangrove: there's a hello world and a follow up there 04:31:56 seangrove: more to come 04:32:32 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:32:55 Just finished a few hello-world weblocks apps, will do a hunchentoot one next, thought I'd have to give ucw a whirl, especially since there seems to be support here :D 04:33:42 yeah hunchentoot is probably the best documented one. along with cl-who and html-template 04:33:59 UCW has YACLML 04:34:41 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-217-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:56 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 04:38:33 -!- lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-221-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:40:20 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:44:15 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:51 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@230.192-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:05:58 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:07:17 jhalogen [~jake@adsl-66-123-77-202.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:11 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:26:08 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 05:26:18 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:26:18 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:26:36 -!- tmitt [seg@wizardly.us] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:26:39 tmitt [seg@wizardly.us] has joined #lisp 05:26:40 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 05:28:01 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 05:29:46 saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:27 felideon: About to go through the "hello uncommon world" post 05:32:42 seangrove: cool 05:34:17 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:34:47 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:35:19 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:38:39 Mind if I ask the benefit of yacml compared to using the (:p (:h1 type markup? 05:39:31 seangrove: Here is a good comparison of yaclml and cl-who: http://www.3ofcoins.net/2009/02/07/yaclml-in-pictures-part-i-html-generation/ 05:45:47 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:22 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:49:07 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 05:51:18 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:54:24 -!- jhalogen [~jake@adsl-66-123-77-202.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 05:59:20 Oh man, tal syntax doesn't look immediately appealing 05:59:46 Coming from haml, anyway 06:00:35 haml? 06:00:45 Looking at the Wikipedia example, haml looks hideous. 06:01:08 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:01:41 Ah, I guessed correctly. It *is* whitespace-sensitive. 06:02:00 that is hideous 06:02:41 kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:04:07 I don't know why people get so hung up on whitespace-sensitivity. 06:04:26 Zhivago: I don't mind it in Python, but Python seems less lexically complex than this haml thing. 06:04:37 *quotemstr* wonders whether yacml's syntax would work in a Lisp-1 without packages, but with macros. 06:10:11 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:10:12 I as talking about all that syntax, not the whitespace 06:10:14 schme [~marcus@c83-254-198-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:10:14 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-198-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 06:10:14 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 06:15:14 mega1 [~quassel@3e70ddf3.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:16:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:17:31 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has joined #lisp 06:19:07 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:18 -!- mdh [~user@cpe-98-155-93-99.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:20:30 Just looks like spacing for nesting 06:20:54 Yeah 06:21:08 Takes care of closing all tags, etc. 06:21:23 Any ideas about what I've done wrong in setting up ucw? http://paste.lisp.org/display/95152 06:22:20 you should try intalling ucw through clbuil;d 06:22:21 clbuild 06:22:37 seangrove: wrong version of sbcl/ucw 06:22:56 oh, now that i looked, wrong version of slime 06:23:33 So...still should try through clbuild? 06:23:50 installing slime through clbuild is an option 06:24:46 ok, trying that 06:25:33 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:12 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-9-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:27:26 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-214-36.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:27:55 ./clbuild install slime ? 06:28:29 ./clbuid build slime doesn't seem to work 06:29:03 doesnt find slime or gives you a different error? 06:29:47 ./clbuild check in case you're missing anything 06:30:52 http://paste.lisp.org/display/95153#1 06:31:23 Goodness this is an exercise in humility :P 06:31:56 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e70ddf3.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:31:58 oh 06:32:08 you dont need to build anything 06:32:31 ./clbuild --long-help 06:33:11 you can do ./clbuild slime to launch or ./clbuild slime-configuration for pasting in your emacs config 06:33:32 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:33:44 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 06:34:15 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:35:42 TR2N [email@89.180.131.239] has joined #lisp 06:36:44 should I ignore: "Versions differ: 2009-05-01 (slime) vs. 2010-02-17 (swank). Continue? (y or n) " 06:37:33 yes. will go away when you restart emacs 06:37:41 no, you shouldn't ignore this 06:37:50 for now? 06:37:58 restarting might help 06:38:24 No, same thing after re-running ./clbuid slime 06:38:53 seangrove: do you use debian or ubuntu and have slime installed from apt? 06:39:00 I'm on OS X 06:39:06 I hope that's not too much of a problem 06:39:22 anyway, you have another slime from somewhere 06:39:44 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 06:42:02 Ah, got it 06:42:18 my .emacs was loading slime from an older installation in a different folder 06:44:37 Appreciate the patience! 06:45:03 seangrove: everyone's just asleep ;) 06:45:46 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:46:08 Heh, so I'd normally be in flames by now? :D 06:46:32 seangrove: your name sounds familiar.... 06:48:01 Not terribly popular, I'm afraid 06:49:04 Hun [~hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:50:13 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 06:53:37 Alright, so I'm still not completely familiar with this clbuild system 06:53:48 I did ./clbuild install ucw 06:53:58 It got all the dependencies...do I do something now? 06:54:17 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 06:54:17 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:44 (require :ucw) and then (in-package :ucw) at the REPL 06:55:00 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 06:55:20 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 06:56:26 http://paste.lisp.org/display/95158 06:56:29 Bizarre 06:56:31 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:56:45 -!- Hun [~hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:58:55 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-11-155.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:59:33 Went in and took off a few seemingly extra parens on the line cited 06:59:39 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-11-202.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:00:07 weird 07:00:59 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:02:44 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:02:52 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:04:45 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:05:06 seangrove: there was a bad checkin to local-time a few days ago that I also patched; the upstream seems to have fixed it, though. 07:05:17 a checkout from today compiled cleanly. 07:05:34 randa [~arand@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 07:08:04 cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has joined #lisp 07:09:04 Ok, makes sense 07:09:08 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75546f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:13 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:15:16 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:16:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:21:40 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:22:32 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.157] has joined #lisp 07:24:11 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 07:27:42 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-112-99.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 07:27:44 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:49 felideon: Any suggestions? http://paste.lisp.org/display/95160 07:32:57 yeah seems like a dependency clbuild misses 07:34:00 install it through clbuild as well: RFC2388-BINARY 07:35:32 That looks better 07:36:00 cool 07:36:18 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:39:33 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 07:40:15 felideon [~felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:52 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has joined #lisp 07:42:29 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:44:28 So do I do all of my work in ucw-user? 07:45:50 Fade: I just an update in clbuild and get the local-time bug 07:46:44 seangrove: I think so. I always do (in-pacakge :ucw) but that might be an alais 07:46:50 alias 07:48:01 not sure though 07:52:13 hrmn.. i was pretty sure that I rechecked out the file.. 07:52:22 it's possible that I didn't however. 07:52:45 it's a simple patch. 07:53:02 pretty obvious somebody made a typo because the form is a couple of screens long. 07:53:15 with a bunch of nested defuns. 07:53:22 yeah 07:53:40 i'll send it to the devel list in the morning. 07:53:46 Hrm, ucw is pretty nice 07:53:47 but for now, i'm going home. nite folks 07:53:54 nite 07:54:04 Night Fade 07:55:04 seangrove: btw, there's also #ucw where some idle 07:55:35 Yup, sitting in there as well 07:55:44 :D 07:55:55 Saw that in a comment on the yaclml post you pointed out 07:56:07 I think I'll call it a night though 07:56:16 yeah me too. it's way too late 07:56:18 don't want to get burnt out, it was a lot of effort getting things setup 07:56:26 Thanks again for all your help 07:56:30 I would have been utterly lost 07:57:11 g'night then 07:57:19 nite 07:57:23 ,q 07:57:27 err 07:57:32 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:57:41 -!- cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]] 07:58:08 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 08:00:44 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:02:53 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:04:53 good morning 08:08:09 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 08:16:18 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:17:26 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:36 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:26:55 fiveop [~fiveop@e179163020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:36 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:33:25 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:40:34 madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 08:42:12 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:34 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:48:21 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:49:22 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:25 antifuchs, splittist: here? 08:50:53 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 08:51:44 splittist [~5502905a@gateway/web/freenode/x-kvussgrcytdejvyz] has joined #lisp 08:51:46 morning 08:52:18 splittist: could your pivmg me your mail address please? 08:52:47 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:17 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:53:29 *splittist* hmmms 08:54:11 privmsg 08:56:03 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has joined #lisp 08:56:34 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:56:45 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:57:02 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-055-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:39 good morning, lispland :) 08:58:08 luke, splittist, antifuchs, fenlix, easyE, jsnell (perhaps), me 08:58:17 who did I forget regarding ViennaLisp? 08:58:40 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 08:59:20 mega 08:59:52 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:00:05 tcr: perhaps attila and levente too 09:00:37 did they mention interests? 09:00:37 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:01:05 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has joined #lisp 09:01:15 They said it was unlikely, but there is some residual imperial pull there... 09:01:22 I'll include them 09:01:23 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:06:03 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xxzjcaekoroembio] has joined #lisp 09:06:34 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:06:57 alama_ [~alama@vhe-540372.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:42 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:18:38 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:21:23 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:33 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 09:22:45 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has joined #lisp 09:23:15 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-164-232.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:23:49 good morning 09:24:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 09:24:50 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:35 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 09:30:38 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-185-233.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:32:29 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:33:27 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:34:00 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.137] has joined #lisp 09:36:20 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:36:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-185-233.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:37:22 -!- alama_ [~alama@vhe-540372.sshn.net] has quit [Quit: alama_] 09:41:55 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:45:20 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:46:16 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-171.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:46:37 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:54:18 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-112-99.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:55:14 saraa [~ircap@83.32.110.142] has joined #lisp 09:55:42 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.137] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:57:24 -!- saraa [~ircap@83.32.110.142] has quit [Client Quit] 09:57:30 angelinaaaa [~ircap@83.32.110.142] has joined #lisp 09:58:11 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-234-202.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:03:05 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 10:04:52 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:06:22 Rix [~rix@87-126-175-43.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 10:08:46 tcr: looks good 10:10:14 _deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 10:10:41 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:41 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:10:41 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 10:13:18 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-055-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:18:42 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19:18 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75546f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:32 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:19:39 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:20:26 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:26 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:20:26 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 10:22:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-234-202.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:23:27 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 10:27:02 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-234-202.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:27:06 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:35:40 quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:35:59 -!- angelinaaaa [~ircap@83.32.110.142] has quit [Quit: • IRcap • 8.5 •] 10:37:15 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:37:15 -!- quotemstr_ is now known as quotemstr 10:37:54 is there a way to know if a function (or even a closure) is purely functional ? 10:38:38 in Common Lisp? 10:38:42 stipet [~user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:43 I don't see any obvious or semi-obvious ways 10:38:53 yes or in sbcl 10:39:10 I mean, you could interpret it to see if it would change the environment. but that's not exactly simple 10:39:20 i don't think it would be ansi 10:39:27 remove all non-pure constructs 10:39:45 oh, right, you can also limit the function to a subset of constructs 10:40:02 but once again, not easy :) 10:40:18 yeah sounds really painful 10:40:32 my intuition is that the compiler knows this stuff and maybe could expose it ? 10:40:36 or, switch to haskell 10:41:04 i dont want to only use pure functional, i just want to know if a particular function is or is not 10:41:13 the compiler doesn't care 10:41:14 like 'is-purely-functional-p 10:41:40 koollman: compiler would love to know such information 10:41:46 alama [~alama@n138220.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 10:41:55 ok. not "doesn't care". but doesn't know, yet ;) 10:42:15 I've seen compiler optimisations for very restricted cases. 10:42:21 can't we tell him ? 10:43:31 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:44:26 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:45:16 actually it might be easy to implement if we had a list of pure-functional primitives and of non-functional ones, compound constructs just have to be recursively AND'ed for pure-functional forms 10:45:45 it could even warn when the form can't be determined 10:46:09 billitch: it's not only about forms, but what they do to passed arguments 10:47:09 billitch: is this function "pure": (defun foo (x) (loop for n below x collecting n))? 10:47:43 jdz: why wouldn't it be ? 10:47:52 billitch: it has setq/setf inside 10:48:03 right 10:48:28 but setf to local binding..? 10:48:43 ok that's complicated.. 10:52:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-234-202.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:53:33 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:56:15 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 10:57:50 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-234-202.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:58:56 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:01:55 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xxzjcaekoroembio] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 11:06:57 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.131.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:12:29 hey, thought of a name for my lisp dancepad game.... LambDance :) 11:12:51 slather [~slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 11:13:05 yes, all dance like lambs! 11:13:28 no, LambDa 11:13:29 :) 11:13:40 or possibly SLambDance 11:14:36 pjb [~t@194.Red-79-149-143.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:46 -!- alama [~alama@n138220.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 11:19:02 alama [~alama@n138220.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 11:20:53 o god 11:21:09 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ufcnvngijbpbayea] has joined #lisp 11:24:02 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:24:28 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-171.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-234-202.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:15 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:21 lambdas to the slaughter! 11:28:24 hhehe 11:29:01 <[df]> the silence of the lambdas? 11:30:12 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-234-202.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:30:36 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:32:35 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:56 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:35:27 Mary had a little lambda; its cons was as bright as snow 11:39:36 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:22 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has joined #lisp 11:41:22 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has quit [Changing host] 11:41:23 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 11:43:28 -!- splittist [~5502905a@gateway/web/freenode/x-kvussgrcytdejvyz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:45:29 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:49:14 -!- stipet [~user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:49:30 -!- peddie [~peddie@TEP.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:49:33 ``Erik [~erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:00 _8david [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:50:28 -!- Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:50:28 -!- guaq [gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:50:31 guaq [gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:50:50 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:51:12 -!- ``Erik_ [~erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:51:12 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:51:12 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:51:28 austinh [~austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:09 Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 11:52:49 DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:56 xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:54:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-234-202.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:55:08 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:50 haha 12:00:16 you could call it cDDR 12:00:16 ok, silence of the lambdas, is the winning phrase 12:00:21 oooh! 12:00:25 extra points 12:00:42 CARCDDR 12:00:46 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-234-202.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:00:49 Xach: it will be a really interesting lisp audio exercise.... i will be cobbling together a basic synth/sampler/sequencer 12:01:02 nice 12:02:01 mega1 [~quassel@3e70d635.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:02:18 thanks for the thopter link in your blog 12:02:39 i'm just going to order a usb compatible dancepad.... the ps2 dancepad usb adaptor cable didn't work 12:02:44 hey no problem 12:02:48 my blog needed some love 12:06:58 grant1983 [~s0793114@dallachy.inf.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:07:30 -!- grant1983 [~s0793114@dallachy.inf.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 12:17:03 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 12:17:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-234-202.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:18:45 hello 12:23:36 mk [~user@159.92.64.121] has joined #lisp 12:24:04 -!- mk is now known as Guest36265 12:24:21 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:28:43 demmeln [~Adium@p2176569711.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:30:53 wow, somebody's working on Garnet 12:31:13 -!- fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: CLSQL 5.0.4, SBCL 1.0.35, ELS2010 deadline extension, ABCL 0.18.1 12:32:55 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:35:12 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 12:40:31 <_8david> hmm, are boinkmarks down or am I using the wrong URL? 12:40:32 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:41:54 _8david: the former, it seems 12:42:25 can't it be both? 12:45:15 Xach: good call 12:49:36 silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has joined #lisp 12:53:24 zaphyr [~zaphr@smorge2.force9.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:53:29 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@e179163020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 12:54:01 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 12:54:49 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:56:55 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:57:38 -!- Rix [~rix@87-126-175-43.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 13:00:03 Rix [~rix@87-126-175-43.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 13:00:31 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:03 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01:37 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:01:55 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:53 knobo [~user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 13:06:21 Fufie [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:26 FufieToo [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:10 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 13:07:20 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:09:28 -!- FufieToo [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:10:26 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-49.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:17:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-238.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:19:47 (format t "~s" (type-of object)) prints PACKAGE::CLASS-NAME if I'm not in the PACKAGE package. How can I print the package name even if I'm in the same package? 13:21:01 ~A 13:21:30 knobo: oops, wrong 13:21:35 splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:21:50 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:22:12 knobo: (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) ...) 13:22:16 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:13 _8david: boinkmarks work for me, http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks/index 13:23:31 knobo: also http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3165125191606936@naggum.no.html 13:24:56 thanx 13:28:27 Xach: there is a ) missing after :keyword 13:29:02 ))))))))) 13:29:20 Is there a log for this channel? 13:29:23 borism [~boris@213-35-233-122-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:29:48 <_8david> tsuru: yay 13:29:56 ...My personal log failed me... 13:30:58 minion: logs 13:30:58 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 13:31:27 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-106-238.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:31:49 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:19 Thanks fe[nl]ix. 13:32:36 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:32:36 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:49 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-23-173.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:34:22 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:35:57 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:23 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:50 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:42:14 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:43:26 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:45:33 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-112-99.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:47:41 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:50:03 are there arguments in favor of 29-bit fixnums (with 3-bit lowtags), versus CMUCL/SBCL style weird 30-bit fixnums? 13:51:41 why "weird" ? 13:51:54 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:52:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-49.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:53:39 Axius [~hi@109.97.62.242] has joined #lisp 13:53:48 what's wrong with weird? compared to using a 29-bit lowtag, their scheme is weird. 13:54:16 um, a 29-bit fixnum, rather 13:54:44 what makes 2-bit lowtags weird compared to 3-bit lowtags ? 13:54:57 because it isn't a 2-bit lowtag. 13:55:22 it's 3-bit lowtag, but fixnums get assigned two values - the LSB of the fixnum overlaps the highest tag bit. 13:56:19 but if weird just means different, it's unnecessary. 'What's the reason for x rather than y, which is different'... 13:56:45 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-49.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:57:07 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-112-99.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: oh, piss off] 13:59:11 <_8david> I'd say SBCL has variable-width lowtags, with the fixnum lowtag being two-bit, and other lowtags being three-bit. 13:59:21 <_8david> It's fine for SBCL to consider them three-bit lowtags, but I think it sounds less weird if you just use variable-width terminology instead. The weirdness is in the terminology, not the implementation. 14:00:14 not only sbcl uses this scheme 14:00:54 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:01:32 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-37-176.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:01:38 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 14:02:31 <_8david> Soon now we'll all be using Lisp on CLR and JVM, where 32 bit fixnums with a 64 bit tag will be the norm! 14:02:55 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 14:02:57 what? 14:03:27 surely you must be jokig 14:03:33 *joking 14:03:42 surely you must be cloaking 14:04:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ufcnvngijbpbayea] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:27 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:04:42 Xach: I don't understand 14:05:17 fe[nl]ix: sorry. it is a weak joke about _8david's JVM on CL, CLOAK. 14:05:30 lol 14:06:23 <_8david> well, I'm only half joking. I really expect that 10 years from now, ABCL with the abovementioned fixnum overhead will have a competitive compiler and language implementation, no matter how high the fixnum overhead in particular may be. 14:06:27 hohum. how might i get ASDF to work under win32, where i cannot create a symbolic link for my asdf file into a systems directory? 14:06:29 <_8david> also, foom will have ported SBCL to LLVM, so JVM and LLVM will be the main Lisp runtimes at that point. 14:06:55 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 14:07:44 zaphyr: one technique is to use a different system search function. even on unix i use that to point to a directory tree instead of some symlink farm. 14:07:45 <_8david> (Sure, the LLVM backend will still have faster fixnums than ABCL. But if there's room for SBCL, Clozure, and CLISP with their wildly different performance characteristics today, there will certainly be a market for things like ABCL, too. ) 14:07:54 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has joined #lisp 14:08:18 Xach: aha, thanks, I will look into that 14:09:08 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-37-176.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:42 -!- demmeln [~Adium@p2176569711.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:11:44 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:46 demmeln [~Adium@p2176569711.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:14:18 Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:16:40 -!- demmeln [~Adium@p2176569711.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:17:09 tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:32 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 14:21:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-49.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:19 -!- Axius [~hi@109.97.62.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:22:29 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:16 slather_ [~slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 14:23:20 -!- slather [~slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:55 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:07 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-9-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 14:25:52 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:25:56 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.118.184] has joined #lisp 14:26:24 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:40 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:26:43 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-49.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:29:57 Man, LLVM is popular these days. 14:31:57 quotemstr: well, it skyrocketed in interest when it suddenly showed rather interesting uses that people apparently haven't thought of before, with the first "home/office" thing to use it being OS X 14:32:27 davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:59 ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:34:25 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:36:37 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:37 wvdschel [~wim@195.207.16.86.static.hosted.by.easyhost.be] has joined #lisp 14:43:48 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:44:42 demmeln [~Adium@p2176560567.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:12 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:45 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:40 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:50:29 rrice [~rrice@99.164.44.7] has joined #lisp 14:51:00 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 14:51:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-49.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:06 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-106-238.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:52:34 -!- felideon_ is now known as felideon 14:52:43 bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:46 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:56:28 -!- demmeln [~Adium@p2176560567.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:56:43 nunb [~nundan@59.178.175.163] has joined #lisp 14:57:30 demmeln [~Adium@p2176560567.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:57 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-49.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 15:01:30 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 15:01:34 -!- demmeln [~Adium@p2176560567.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:06:17 -!- fgtech^ [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...] 15:06:43 fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 15:07:47 wouldn't it be nice if I was on a line in the lispcode that had a comment with TODO, and I could just press a key combo to copy it out to a TODO file? 15:08:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-49.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:08:52 it would be nicer if it implemented what is said in TODO 15:09:01 :) 15:09:25 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:09:30 stassats`: only if it said "please" at the end. 15:10:08 but not too much, like in intercal 15:12:00 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:13:15 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:14:06 Now I have a working example in my tokyo cabinet library :) 15:14:18 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has joined #lisp 15:16:30 -!- Fufie [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:16:31 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 15:16:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:17:05 what makes LLVM really good? 15:17:23 *dmiles_afk* was stuck in scroolback ... oops 15:18:17 about JVM based lisps .. the 4 i've studies.. the problem i have is the ammount of ram a cons cells takes 15:18:53 <_8david> and here I thought sqlite was the fashionable new thing. How does tc compare to that? 15:19:19 the fixnum certainly seems annoying but if you are on a 64bit jvm.. and you intern say 32bits of them (preboxed versions) 15:19:31 tc is more /like/ a key value store 15:19:42 they say box a long.. its not so bad 15:20:02 (since its 64 bits either way) 15:20:17 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 15:21:54 though LLVM what is it. a C++ with a better GC? 15:21:54 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:22:15 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:33 or is it something that can be populated with tons of reusable classes? 15:22:34 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:14 <[df]> dmiles_afk: LLVM is a low level IR, and a compiler infrastructure built on it 15:23:31 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 15:23:35 so JIT is going to do smarter things likely? 15:23:58 Axius [~hi@92.84.12.200] has joined #lisp 15:24:02 -!- rikjasnon [~hell@81.172.53.138.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:24:45 (or at least it has the potential to get faster than the JVM?) 15:24:49 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:56 <[df]> it doesn't really compete with the JVM 15:25:00 <[df]> you could build a JVM on top of it 15:25:29 if that is done (build a JVM on top) it seems like that JVM would have a better memory model 15:25:45 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has left #lisp 15:25:55 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:57 <[df]> I don't really know anything about JVM internals personally 15:26:22 one problem i have with its internals.. it always holds the programmer back from union/structs/arrays 15:26:47 by design.. oter than that its pretty good becasue of how JIT owrks 15:26:48 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:27:00 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:03 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:27:08 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 15:27:26 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 15:27:27 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:31 but the fact it has a reusable IR.. sounds great.. expecial if that IR can be interpred as well 15:28:14 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.12.200] has quit [Client Quit] 15:28:22 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:29 <[df]> yep, there's a bytecode interpreter 15:28:34 <[df]> well, I think they call it bitcode 15:28:56 then if a JVM was built on top.. then that would be able to bypass some of the strictness of the JVM 15:29:11 or even a .NET VM 15:30:04 the strictness of the JVM is the only reason ABCL isnt kicking performance butt everywhre 15:30:36 well one of probly 2-3 reasons ;) 15:30:56 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:30:56 dl [~user@dhcp04.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:32:10 ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 15:32:32 -!- herbieB is now known as you 15:32:36 -!- you is now known as herbieB 15:32:48 seems a bit strange though, to implement a JVM ontop of LLVM to bypass the strictness of the JVM? maybe you wanted a different VM than the JVM if it's getting in the way? :) 15:33:53 i switched the C# the .net VM.. since i want access to the reusable classes.. but now have to actually write unmannaged code 15:34:06 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:34:20 but it might still have to pass a JNI-like barrienr 15:34:36 Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:09 chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-treyygphshxhdagd] has joined #lisp 15:35:12 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:39 milanj [~milan@91.150.101.140] has joined #lisp 15:35:43 the strictness i dont like is the array bounds checking and the inablity to add a new valuetpye 15:35:53 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 15:35:57 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 15:36:21 other than that not much to compain about 15:36:25 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:31 afaik the JIT is supposed to remove the bounds checking when it can, but the latter yeah, is going to always be a problem 15:37:14 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:37:25 well, that's hotspot with --server, of course. you can't make any hard promises about any given implementation, of course 15:37:41 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:37:42 a lack of array bounds checking is a memory protection fault 15:38:07 yes, but in certain situations you can prove that will never happen, and it's those situations which can be removed 15:38:11 but i guess they can catch that .. thats what GCJ does 15:38:32 ah true enough 15:39:09 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:39:32 (the code can do little sanity checks to make sure it wont go outside the accepble range when it seems like something can) 15:39:48 http://www.amazon.com/High-Performance-Compilers-Parallel-Computing-Michael/dp/0805327304 has some very detailed information on the kinds of analysis one can do 15:40:10 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-138-238.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:41:22 Axius [~hi@92.84.12.200] has joined #lisp 15:43:58 looks good 15:44:40 i liked it, focuses a lot more on loop optimization than anything else i've found. of course, how much hotspot actually does is another matter 15:44:53 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.12.200] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:42 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e70d635.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:05 mega1 [~quassel@3e70d635.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:46:27 it is also pretty old, so i'm sure there's a bunch of better solutions by now, but it has a lot of concepts in one place, so still worth it imho 15:47:22 Axius [~hi@92.84.12.200] has joined #lisp 15:47:34 it would be usefull to read whenever one is frustrated about performancee 15:47:55 i mean while i m waiting an hour for some java lisp ;) 15:47:57 yes, so one can become frustrated with linear integer programming instead :) 15:49:17 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:50:11 i did some benchmarks on reasearhcyc in C and oe on the JVM.. what was neat the JVM version was 8 times faste 15:50:12 -!- Rix [~rix@87-126-175-43.btc-net.bg] has quit [Quit: No One Lives Forever] 15:50:20 but used 5 times the ram 15:50:59 retype: i did some benchmarks on research cyc in C and on the JVM.. what was neat the JVM version was 8 times faster 15:51:36 the C version was about 40% faster than the allegro compiled 15:51:55 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 15:51:55 interesting 15:52:10 the C version is a lisp2c translation 15:52:14 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:52:30 the java verison is a lisp2java 15:53:02 same translator .. and it came out 8 times faster 15:53:51 yeah it is counter intuitive but has logical reaasons 15:54:09 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 15:54:54 well the benchmark runs about 15 minutes on some data in ram.. then counts how much work it got done 15:55:19 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:55:59 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:56:12 zaphyr: why are you asking me? 15:56:26 pardon? 15:56:27 I don't know anything about windows 15:56:32 oh lol 15:56:37 nono, i just said 'ho hum' 15:56:45 06:03 < zaphyr> hohum. how might i get ASDF to work under win32, where i cannot create a symbolic link for my asdf file into a systems directory? 15:56:50 fiveop [~fiveop@e179163020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:55 -!- alama [~alama@n138220.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 15:56:59 yeah, that was an utterance, not a reference to you directly ;) 15:57:05 oic 15:57:11 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:57:35 TDT [~user@dhcpw80ff9515.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:57:49 zaphyr" linkd /? 15:58:11 oops what is that thiny called 15:58:20 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:20 zaphyr: add each directory to asdf:*central-registry* 15:58:48 ahh, i used a nicer solution that Zach pointed me to actually 15:58:54 pnq [~gaiug@AC837E9D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:21 turned out to be in the asdf faq, so i felt a little sheepish after finding it there... 16:00:36 I used the bottom snippet at http://www.cliki.net/asdf 16:00:56 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:01:16 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 16:02:51 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03:41 Athas` [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:04:02 -!- TDT [~user@dhcpw80ff9515.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:30 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:37 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:09:17 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:09:57 alama [~alama@n138220.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 16:10:28 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 16:13:23 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:43 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:14:56 _8david: is there any knob in closure-html or related systems that pretty-prints html while serializing? 16:15:22 is there any closure on the seed-random-state issue? 16:15:48 I hope *something* gets committed before 1.0.36 so we can declare some API as officially supported. 16:15:57 I don't care which API. 16:16:51 but what's in currently requires either fixing or declaring "yes, we understand it's a non-compliance, but the kind of non-compliance we're happy with". 16:17:25 or just not supporting that API officially 16:17:49 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:31 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.12.200] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:18:40 we don't offer any guarantees of backwards compatibility in any case 16:19:17 <_8david> not really. I run xsltproc on the command line when I need this feature... 16:22:18 <_8david> it's a prominent omission though, and I'd be taking patches if anyone was to submit a working patch 16:23:10 Krystof, is your current position to let the code as is? to apply the seed-random-state patch? 16:23:22 I don't plan to change it in the next two months 16:23:30 <_8david> When I say "working" I mean "it indents correctly", so that's a major precondition here. "it indents" isn't "it indents correctly". 16:23:45 I reserve the right to do so when I actually do some sbcl work 16:24:13 Krystof, would you see positively someone else applying the renaming to seed-random-state ? 16:24:18 or negatively, etc. 16:24:34 I do not have the mental space to care any way now 16:24:40 ok, sorry. 16:25:39 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:26 nyef [~nyef@c-98-229-100-198.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:45 no, don't apologise, it's a fair question; I'm sorry I can't give you a firm answer 16:27:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:28:05 Hello all. 16:28:05 nyef, memo from pkhuong: would a constant for fixnum-lowtag-values be a good idea instead of (mapcar #'symbol-value fixnum-lowtags)? 16:28:05 nyef, memo from pkhuong: in call.lisp, do you think there's a way to fix the shl/sub/shr sequence, or at least uoptimise it a tiny bit? 16:28:05 nyef, memo from pkhuong: is is_lisp_pointer right for all 3 fixnum widths on x86-64? 16:28:06 nyef, memo from pkhuong: same patch in x86-64-assem.S:197 for darwin; is $(N_FIXNUM_TAG_BITS) fine on other platforms too? 16:28:14 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:28:43 Oh boy. 16:29:52 Anyone here have experiense with couchdb or mongodb? 16:30:07 I dabbled with couchdb at one point 16:30:07 (from lisp) 16:30:33 what is your impression? 16:30:54 sorry, I thought you had a particular question. That's a bit off topic 16:31:23 ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has joined #lisp 16:31:23 Well, I'm thinking about if the lisp libraries are good 16:31:32 On the upside, I've finished as of yesterday testing the patch series to my satisfaction on a 32-bit debian lenny chroot. 16:32:07 I used cl-couch which I kind of liked. But the author stopped maintaining it and from what I remember I think it needed a few bug fixes. 16:32:27 it had it's own view server written in Lisp 16:32:39 Let's see... fixnum-lowtag-values... Only if we rename fixnum-lowtags to fixnum-lowtag-names. 16:32:41 there's another library, i think cl-couchdb which just uses the javascript view server 16:33:41 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-72-45.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:34:10 I've heard that clouchdb is good, and sykopomp wrote a library called Chillax 16:34:11 is_lisp_pointer() is right for all fixnum widths because it distinguishes potential fixnums on the low bit and pointer vs. widetag on the next-lowest bit. 16:34:23 we need more volunteers to maintain sbcl :( 16:34:42 Fare: Maintain in what sense? 16:35:04 relieve Xof from his burden. 16:35:09 Ah. 16:35:25 do the dirty job of ensuring quality, release, etc. 16:35:31 if only there were a big company making most of its money from an application built on sbcl, willing to fund part-time maintenance 16:35:43 maybe undertake bigger refactoring (only maybe, if needed) 16:35:49 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-11-202.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:35:58 Krystof, yes. But politics got in the way... 16:36:05 apparently 16:36:12 The release management stuff is largely automatable/automated, is it not? 16:36:19 Fare, what do you mean? ITA isn't using SBCL anymore? 16:36:21 we hired one bad manager a few years ago. He left, but his legacy lives on. 16:36:29 one good way of ensuring that something is maintained by a bunch of ragtags is by not paying them :-) 16:36:35 Adlai, only half of ITA does. 16:36:56 Krystof, there was a big flamewar about that internally. 16:36:57 nyef: the release management is, yes, but not any kind of associated quality, testing, merging, testing, other testing, testing, etc 16:37:47 Mmm... I'm trying to line up a PPC system for testing with locally. 16:38:04 Fare: I know, and I don't blame individuals at all 16:38:11 nyef, it's not hard to get an old Mac on craigslist. 16:38:29 or freecycle 16:38:33 Fare: I'm supposedly going to obtain a G5 towards the start of next month. 16:38:42 if you find one in Boston, I can keep it until you come and get it 16:38:43 but the reality is that none of my paid time is allocated to sbcl, so if I'm to do boring stuff it has to align with some other interest 16:38:50 and right now it aligns quite poorly 16:38:58 I've a bondiblue sitting around too nyef 16:39:25 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:42:22 Ohh... That's why $(CONSTANT) instead of $CONSTANT. Some systems treat $ as a constituent. 16:42:27 ephcon [~ephcon@student165-118.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 16:43:00 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:43:01 smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:05 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:47 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:26 smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:47 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:47 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:48:13 -!- porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:15 ... I think the shift/sub/shift sequence in call.lisp can be improved... IIF we can scare up a temp register. 16:49:04 At the same time, I think the conditional compilation structures can be improved as well. 16:50:06 Which means I can get rid of 2/3 of the shift/sub/shifts. 16:50:13 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.118.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:50:26 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:51:25 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hmmfbphbrijoxiyc] has joined #lisp 16:53:31 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 16:54:07 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:50 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hmmfbphbrijoxiyc] has left #lisp 16:55:52 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-166-175.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:58:00 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:56 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student165-118.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:01:26 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:02:46 carlocci [~nes@93.37.205.88] has joined #lisp 17:05:13 memo to world: create more well-funded organisations depending on sbcl. k thx. 17:05:48 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:58 memo to self: finish installing ieslick's NLP thingumabob 17:06:13 (if only these were related) 17:06:20 Even a number of not-so-well-funded organizations that still contribute some amount would help, wouldn't it? 17:06:32 yes, but we're organizationally not set up to aggregate contributions 17:06:59 There is that, I suppose. 17:07:42 Is it the aggregation of the contributions or the subsequent disbursement of the aggregate? 17:08:13 well, the latter is important too 17:08:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-238.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:08:50 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 17:08:50 and of course there's a bootstrapping problem ("why should I contribute? How can I know that you'll disburse fairly?" "how can I prove that without disbursing anything?") 17:09:25 really, what would be ideal from my perspective is if sb-studio could feature more prominently in people's minds when they're thinking "how can I contribute to sbcl development" 17:09:30 not that I know what nikodemus is up to at the moment 17:10:25 Xof: indeed. OTOH, building a system for aggregating and disbursing micro-contributions in a way that is perceived as 'fair' by a wide class of folks might be seen as premature optimization. 17:10:43 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:45 Is there an x86-64 instruction to do a move-and-negate of an integer value at once? 17:12:46 -!- pnq [~gaiug@AC837E9D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:13:02 nyef: not really the best channel to ask that question, I think 17:13:12 Sure it is, it's sbcl-related. 17:13:35 Actually, I think I can reasonably do it in two instructions and have it be a net win in some sense. 17:14:12 I don't mind you asking it, but I assume there is a channel on freenode with people in it that would know that kind of thing 17:14:24 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:17 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:15:22 deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:16:10 Yup, definately a net win. More complex EAs in two places vs. separate LEA/SUB sequence, and in one case an LEA/SUB/MOV. 17:16:25 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 17:18:49 yay for nyef 17:19:54 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:26:40 I can't help but think that there's a further optimization available here, but I'm not seeing anything more than the general outline. 17:27:36 nyef: there is a channel named #asm... maybe they'll know an answer? 17:28:41 Perhaps, but it's low-priority and I'm sure I'll see it later. 17:32:20 couch vs. mongo => 1 - 0 17:33:06 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-98-229-100-198.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:50 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:33:53 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:13 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-138-238.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:36:20 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:36:34 (no libraries for mongodb, so actualy 3 - 0 to couchdb) 17:36:36 drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 17:37:32 knobo: there is a mongodb lib wip 17:37:48 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@133.0-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 17:38:17 knobo: http://github.com/fons/cl-mongo 17:38:27 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:38:38 I didn't quite like the presentation of the interface to the user, but at least some work is being done on that front. 17:39:14 mongodb is faster than couchdb, but there is a limit on the document size and a fairly strict limit on 32bit OSs wrt the size of the database 17:39:29 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:39:50 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.175.163] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:40:33 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@133.0-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 17:41:01 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41:09 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:41:13 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:42:08 madnificent, any 32bit OS? 17:42:54 nunb [~nundan@59.178.175.163] has joined #lisp 17:42:59 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 17:43:24 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:43:30 bjorkintosh: couchdb uses mmap, which limits to a few gigs on 32bit systems 17:44:16 malcolm_reynolds [~malc@mreynolds.cs.ucl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:44:41 people still use 32bit systems? 17:44:55 sykopomp: do NOT laugh at my server! 17:44:56 seriously? Next thing you'll tell me is that people still actually use ms windows. 17:45:03 wait, that's 64 bit... 17:45:15 I swear, the kind of crazy talk you run into on irc... 17:45:48 irc only has perverts, fbi agents and geeks on it 17:46:01 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:46:02 don't forget racist spammers. 17:46:06 or are those fbi agents, too? 17:47:11 it's all part of a giant gvmnt plot! they're trying to by inserting racist spam in here! 17:47:36 <[df]> sykopomp: I think there's some overlap between all those sets 17:48:01 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:48:42 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:49:42 *drewc* supports over 100 32 bit servers, and 2 64 bit ones. MOST people still use 32bit systems. 17:50:37 is there any way to get a more useful error message out of cffi:use-foreign-library than "error opening shared object: dlopen(3) failed" ? 17:51:02 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 17:51:05 I can't tell whether I've compiled my file wrong in some way, or whether it's getting confused about paths, or any number of other random things 17:51:24 -!- chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-treyygphshxhdagd] has quit [] 17:51:51 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:52:32 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:23 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:54:13 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:57 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:55:29 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:57:07 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:58:03 malcolm_reynolds: how would you do it in C? try the same thing? 17:58:12 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:36 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:58:52 ..uh, I dunno. never done any dynamic library stuff in C 17:58:55 rikjasnon [~hell@81.172.44.74.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:32 are you trying to write something using CFFI, or just use a library that opens a dll ? 17:59:51 greetings 18:00:23 I'm calling out of some of my lisp code to some of my C code 18:00:28 *out from 18:00:32 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 18:01:17 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:01:24 malcolm_reynolds: well, then...you'd better learn about what it is you're doing... you're asking a C question in a Lisp channel :) 18:01:43 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:03 I know, I just wondered if it was possible to get a more useful error message.. thanks anyway. 18:02:15 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:02:32 it is... what is dlopen specified to return on error? 18:02:44 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:13 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:20 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.175.163] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:05:12 oh.. nm.. CFFI already seems to do what i thought you should do. 18:05:26 which makes sense i guess. 18:06:12 malcolm_reynolds: does the file exists, is writeable, and also happens to be C code compiled as a DLL? 18:06:27 err 18:06:30 is readable 18:06:39 *drewc* is going for coffee 18:06:49 yes, yes, and 'probably' 18:07:02 file says it's a dynamic library, Mach-o, i386, etc 18:07:07 disumu [~disumu@pD4B9E419.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:09 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:07:23 I'm currently looking around in case there is some extra magical incantation to make it really work 18:08:15 does it load in C? 18:08:36 -!- deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:04 hrmm, just got it fixed 18:09:27 malcolm_reynolds: is the SBCL or Clozure ? 18:09:32 sbcl 18:10:37 anyhoo, gotta run 18:10:40 -!- malcolm_reynolds [~malc@mreynolds.cs.ucl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: malcolm_reynolds] 18:13:10 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-243-239.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:15:42 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-217-54.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:17:17 deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:17:29 just added a lazy quicksort to hu.dwim.lazy-eval, see at http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.lazy-eval/test/quicksort.lisp 18:18:13 the code is the same as the strict version, except it supposed to provide the first K elements cheaper than O(N * log N) 18:18:46 that is O(N + K * log N) 18:18:48 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-243-239.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:53 e.g. (with-lazy-eval (take (quicksort '(162 11 6 9 1260 27 4 1 22 0 52 927 402 13 42 38 2 5 9238 752 98 7 54 23)) 5)) 18:19:49 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-166-175.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:20:18 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:59 this form yields '(0 1 2 4 5) with 64 comparisons 18:21:06 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 18:21:25 the whole sort takes 101, don't know if that is what one would expect, but certainly less 18:25:13 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:25:42 minion: memo for nyef: instead of shift/sub/shift, you could neg/lea/neg. 18:25:43 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 18:26:34 sykopomp: looking forward to test your couchdb library. 18:26:39 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 18:27:19 madnificent: if we include all non-complete libs, then couchdb gets 5 or 6 points.. 18:27:35 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:44 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:29:47 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:30:20 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:40 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:30:46 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 18:32:42 -!- milanj [~milan@91.150.101.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:33:36 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:28 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:37:29 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:52 milanj [~milan@93.87.151.101] has joined #lisp 18:37:54 Morbeo [~myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 18:38:51 -!- dl [~user@dhcp04.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:39:49 Houl [~Miranda@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 18:43:21 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:43:32 what is even more funny is that you can control laziness vs. eagerness with *immediate-lazy-function-call-level-limit* 18:43:59 setting it to a high enough integer will make quicksort non lazy 18:44:14 I'm measuring the number of comparisons done in partition 18:44:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 18:45:11 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:48:06 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:48:18 -!- _deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:48:28 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:35 would anyone recommend "Lisp in Small Pieces" by Christian Queinnec as a good source for somebody who wants to play around with implementing Lisp? 18:48:39 arnee [~arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 18:49:18 lithper2_: I heard good opinions 18:49:49 lithper2_: this is a very good book, I certainly recommend it. 18:49:51 *rsynnott* can't help worrying about a book which was presumably designed so as to have a clever name :) 18:49:59 (I've read the original in French, 2nd edition). 18:50:20 rsynnott: well, in French it's not so clever. 18:50:34 hopefully the translation is good. 18:51:07 It's "Principes d'implantation de Scheme et Lisp" PISL :-/ 18:51:55 lithper2_: I've read only the first chapter of the translation, 1sd edition. I could feel the translation, but I think it was good enough. At least, for the technical section, there should be no problem. 18:52:15 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:44 lithper2_: I heartily recommend the translated version (not that I've compared it with the French original). 18:53:51 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: And with that he was gone!] 18:54:21 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:54:52 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75546f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:02 -!- jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has left #lisp 18:55:05 i can't tell which edition was translated, but seems like this book is receiving good reviews. 18:55:07 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:16 AFAIK, the translation is good. I read the French edition because it was the 2nd ed, and wasn't translated yet. 18:55:37 The english version I had in hands was from the 1st edition. 18:56:09 borism_ [~boris@213-35-235-6-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:57:20 -!- borism [~boris@213-35-233-122-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:58:35 -!- silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:50 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:58:55 thanks 18:59:02 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:06 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:16 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 19:00:20 _Rui_ [~Rui@172.108.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:00:47 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:57 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:00:57 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 19:01:15 I have actually never read LiSP... i should get a copy! 19:01:57 I bought it after the strangely-low-price-on-amazon.ca incident and found it ... not as enlightening as it was made out to be 19:02:20 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:28 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:11 kpreid: i imagine i might be a little too far in my studies of lisp to get all the AHA! moments i would have if i had picked it up 5 years ago or so... but i can equally imagine there are still quite a few things of value in there as well :) 19:03:33 kpreid: sure, it's not SICP. But if you want to learn how to implement a lisp, it's a very good book. 19:05:27 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.137.98] has joined #lisp 19:09:26 levente_meszaros pasted "lazy quicksort" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95199 19:09:28 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:31 taking the first 3 elements of quicksort's result is more than order of magnitude faster with lazy eval 19:11:06 obviously none of those can beat CL:SORT because they both allocate crazily 19:13:01 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:13:13 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:31 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:15:35 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:55 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 19:16:04 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 19:18:51 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:19:21 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Client Quit] 19:19:37 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-164-232.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:20:47 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:21:06 -!- zaphyr [~zaphr@smorge2.force9.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:38 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-93.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:23:57 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 19:24:23 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 19:30:33 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:31:28 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:32:11 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 19:33:13 Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:05 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:19 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 19:38:01 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-93.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:16 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-93.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:41 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:29 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-93.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:13 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:41:43 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:45:07 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:45:33 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:45:36 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.137.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:45:54 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:46:34 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-93.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:12 zaphyr [~zaphr@smorge2.force9.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:52:26 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:54:50 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:56:03 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66215b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:56:11 unicode [~user@95.214.22.152] has joined #lisp 19:56:40 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 19:56:57 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66215b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 19:58:34 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-171.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:59:33 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:31 Anyone read Let over Lambda at all? If so, would you say its worth reading? 20:00:48 -!- _Rui_ [~Rui@172.108.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:01:49 i would like to read it 20:01:56 fractalis: yes i've read it, and it's only worth reading if you've read every other lisp book out there and really don't have anything better to do. 20:02:04 michalk [~michalk@chello089073134224.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 20:02:07 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.22.152] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:02:08 drewc ? 20:02:23 why ? 20:02:31 fractalis: I've head mixed reports on LoL... 20:02:39 heard. 20:03:00 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-105-237.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:13 drewc: Due to not much practical use in it, or due to the inherit nature of the material that Hoyte covers? 20:03:19 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 20:03:24 both 20:04:17 the biggest example is that the author advocates leaving *earmuffs* of of special variables in order to conform to something he calls 'duality of syntax' 20:04:24 off of* 20:04:24 drewc: you just dont like the fact he used your theme :P 20:05:18 since my personal ideas are more along the lines of 'there should be no special variables', this obviously doesn't sit well with me. 20:05:44 -!- pjb [~t@194.Red-79-149-143.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:21 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:11 -!- Yamazaki1kun is now known as Yamazaki-kun 20:07:26 Duality of syntax? 20:07:41 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-93.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:20 Demosthenes [~demo@12.124.83.134] has joined #lisp 20:10:06 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:19 my opinions on Let Over Lamba are thus : "There is nothing interesting for an experienced lisper, and much that could harm an inexperienced lisper. An intermediate lisper, otoh, may see a few techniques illustrated therein that he is not familiar with. As long as this lisper is able to discern why he should't use most of those techniques most of the time, there may be some value to him. 20:10:22 " 20:10:56 drewc: so, You'd say it's a book that requires a lot of critical reading? :) 20:11:15 in a nutshell :) 20:13:08 i feel almost precisely the same about On Lisp, fwiw, with the caveat that pg was in fact an experienced LISPer, and not a perl programmer cum lisp author. 20:14:05 so where On Lisp is 'lets use macros to turn lisp into scheme", LOL is "Lets use a lisp turned into scheme and readmacros to turn scheme into perl" 20:14:37 duality of syntax? 20:14:43 what does that mean? 20:14:57 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:14:59 Wow, I went to his section on that phrase and it said nothing 20:15:05 So yes, a sumup would be helpful. 20:15:46 "This dual syntax allows us to a write a macro that has a single, common interface for creating expansions that are useful in both dynamic and lexical contexts" 20:16:06 "Even though the meanings of expansions of the macro can be completely different given their context, and even though each can mean entirely different things underneath, we can still use the same macro and the same combinations of this macro with other macros." 20:16:21 I think I would like examples where that is both awesome and easy to maintain. 20:16:58 to me it means 'any given form has unclear semantics and requires whole program analysis, including what may happen in the indefinite future, to understand' 20:17:16 nyef [~nyef@c-98-229-100-198.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:25 Is it just a restatement of "data is code, yo" 20:17:26 ? 20:17:39 Hopefully I can stay connected now. 20:17:39 nyef, memo from pkhuong: instead of shift/sub/shift, you could neg/lea/neg. 20:17:41 this is true of CL in general, but usually an *earmuff* is a good clue! 20:18:39 pkhuong: I'm just trying a variation on neg/lea now for copy-more-arg, and have a subsequent elaboration to try after that. 20:20:19 nyef pasted "for pkhuong: what I'm doing for copy-more-arg right now" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95203 20:21:18 TR2N [email@89-180-219-106.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 20:21:49 Athas`` [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:23:45 -!- Athas` [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:27:59 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 20:28:21 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:28:41 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-100.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:28:57 bew [~bew@box254238.static.sdsl.no] has joined #lisp 20:30:16 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:42 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:30:52 hi, can cffi-grovel search a C header for a struct and automatically dump the cffi definition to it's out file like it can do with constants? or do I always have to manually define it in the grovel syntax file with (cstruct ...)? 20:31:46 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:59 -!- prip [~foo@host119-197-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:32:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:32:41 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:47 ... Why are the float.pure.lisp bug-372 tests so bloody -random-? 20:33:42 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.137.98] has joined #lisp 20:37:57 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:39:50 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:40:16 nyef: any idea on the GC failure for threaded darwin builds? 20:40:30 Eek. What? 20:41:18 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:15 Context? 20:42:56 Wider fixnums work fine on darwin, except for threaded builds. 20:43:01 Ah. 20:43:23 GC failure (widetag = 0x0, weirdly enough) while dumping the warm core. 20:43:43 Hrm... 20:43:49 So, darwin-specific, huh? 20:43:54 Looks like. 20:44:22 And how the heck do you get a widetag of 0x0, given that widetag-lowtag is xx01? 20:45:25 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:45:40 -!- bew [~bew@box254238.static.sdsl.no] has quit [Quit: bew] 20:45:45 Lutexes, maybe? 20:46:07 I'll try on fbsd. 20:46:49 Oh, right, I was going to try and install an fbsd VM to test with. 20:46:54 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:47:30 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:42 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:47:52 prip [~foo@host247-123-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:48:15 (Took me a sec to remember why: It's a gcc-tls system, and that has implications for no-x86oid-assem.S.) 20:50:16 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:52:24 airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:24 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:25 -!- airolson_ is now known as airolson 20:52:41 epikhigh [~unix@ip68-99-189-129.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:48 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 20:54:07 unix_ [~unix@ip68-99-189-129.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:56 -!- unix_ [~unix@ip68-99-189-129.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:56 -!- epikhigh [~unix@ip68-99-189-129.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:59 Lycurgus [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:52 malsyned [~malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:59 epikhi [~unix@ip68-99-189-129.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:10 -!- alama [~alama@n138220.science.ru.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:57:15 -!- arnee [~arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [Quit: arnee] 20:58:56 Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:49 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.137.98] has quit [Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info] 21:00:18 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 21:01:32 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082C809.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:03 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:05 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082BF97.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:04:25 -!- rlonstei1 is now known as rlonstein 21:04:32 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 21:06:15 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:15 -!- zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@hoasnet-fe22dd00-59.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:26 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:28 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:37 -!- easyE [EcK9EiSfaU@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:06:45 adeht` [~death@bzq-84-110-243-239.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:02 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-105-237.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:13 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 21:08:06 drewc: herep 21:08:23 gigamonkey: t 21:09:27 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-243-239.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:09:59 So the cat's out of the bag: http://gigamonkeys.com/blog/2010/02/18/gigamonkeys-quarterly.html 21:11:24 gigamonkey: exciting! 21:11:29 gigamonkey: What about defintions of problems and solutions written in software? 21:11:45 zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@hoasnet-fe22dd00-59.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:11:48 gigamonkey: Problems in other domains, i mean. 21:12:18 herbieB: you mean something that would be primarily code or primarily exposition? 21:12:31 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:12:38 Anyway, at this point I'm willing to look at anything anyone thinks would be interesting. 21:12:40 gigamonkey: Ha, well I'm just thinking of myself: frank.kank.net/essays 21:13:08 I guess that's half exposition, half code? 21:14:10 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:30 I guess if there was a topic that could be easily explained to programmers using a mix of code and prose than just good prose, that might be interesting. 21:18:52 yeah... something not-programming, but of interest to programmers, explained using code... i'd enjoy that. 21:19:37 i'm thinking of physics specifically, because that interests me and the notation they use is all greek to me 21:19:56 Structure and Interpretation of Semiconductors? 21:19:58 drewc: That's also what I was thinking. 21:20:10 *Krystof* sees a market for his writing 21:20:13 nyef: totally 21:20:28 Structure and Interpretation of Poker? 21:20:30 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:21:34 nyef: brilliant! :) 21:22:12 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.137.98] has joined #lisp 21:22:23 borubudur [~5ea22523@gateway/web/freenode/x-qfsjmprrdlnjfrja] has joined #lisp 21:26:26 poker, like sudokus are a ddos attack on human brain 21:26:30 -!- disumu [~disumu@pD4B9E419.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ...] 21:26:50 -!- borubudur [~5ea22523@gateway/web/freenode/x-qfsjmprrdlnjfrja] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:28:01 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:28:44 Oh, no wonder this didn't work, there's an extra variable I didn't account for. 21:28:56 konr [~user@189.0.31.1] has joined #lisp 21:29:27 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has quit [Quit: sellout] 21:31:13 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:31:31 cadabra [~cadabra@69.169.170.130.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:42 pkhuong: gc-common.c, line 2221, scavtab should be sizetab. 21:32:35 -!- epikhi [~unix@ip68-99-189-129.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:33:37 _Rui_ [~rui@172.108.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:34:46 Only ways to hit this are lutexes, maybe_adjust_large_object() (on a cons?), and possibly verify_space(). 21:35:04 -!- michalk [~michalk@chello089073134224.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:12 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:35:12 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:36:42 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.137.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:39:17 Well, and maybe cheneygc. 21:41:47 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:41:49 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:42:33 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has joined #lisp 21:44:22 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.137.98] has joined #lisp 21:48:03 sebyte [~sebyte@213.229.74.8] has joined #lisp 21:48:26 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:53 -!- MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:01 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.67.13.76] has joined #lisp 21:49:10 what's the quick way to bind a list of names to a list of values in let-like binding form? I forget. 21:49:26 ... progv, perhaps? 21:49:52 clhs progv 21:49:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 21:49:56 yeah, there's progv but i'm sure i read about another form 21:50:24 sebyte, progv is the most basic one, and it sounds like it's exactly what you want 21:50:32 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.137.98] has quit [Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info] 21:50:45 MrAwesome [~Guest335@ip68-6-162-241.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:47 yeah, probably, perhaps it was in scheme 21:52:17 weird, I thought Scheme only had lexical scope 21:53:09 sebyte: note though that progv makes dynamicly scoped bindings, not lexical ones. 21:53:47 that's why i was hesitating with progv because I only need lexical scope 21:53:51 Are you thinking of destructuring-bind? 21:53:59 (destructuring-bind (a b c) (list 1 2 3) ...) 21:54:42 hehe, if so, then I wildly misunderstood "list of names"... 21:54:43 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 21:54:50 -!- mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Client Quit] 21:55:17 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:55:52 alama_ [~alama@vhe-540372.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:11 destructuring-bind is exactly it, thanks, and yes, "list of names" was far from clear, 21:56:14 . 21:56:44 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:47 btw, depending on what "list of values" means, you may want to use multiple-value-bind instead. probably not, though. 21:56:54 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:36 no, not in this instance, i'm not dealing with multiple return values 21:57:40 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-171.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:57:41 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:58:12 -!- Morbeo [~myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Quit: srsly u] 21:58:12 -!- Athas`` [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:17 -!- deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 21:58:45 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 21:59:21 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-171.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:00:21 Then you want (multiple-value-bind (a b c) ...) 22:00:51 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:01:07 gigamonkey, the blog post looked interesting until "iPad"... 22:01:20 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:01:20 pkhuong: Any other outstanding issues before I commit? 22:01:47 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:01:48 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Client Quit] 22:01:54 pdponze [~pierre@144.85.124.96] has joined #lisp 22:02:02 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 22:02:07 gigamonkey, it looks like a nice idea, though. 22:02:09 pkhuong: Or should I wait until the weekend, just in case? 22:03:24 -!- sebyte [~sebyte@213.229.74.8] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1] 22:04:11 sebyte : LAMBDA is the form for binding lexical variables 22:04:14 oh he's gone 22:04:26 and ed is the standard text editor? 22:04:27 :P 22:04:48 (apply #'(lambda (name1 name) ....) (list-of-values)) 22:05:28 is that not the lexical equivalent of progv, as far as such a thing makes any sense at all? 22:06:06 -!- alama_ [~alama@vhe-540372.sshn.net] has quit [Quit: alama_] 22:06:11 Adlai: is that just due to basic Apple hate? 22:06:20 not if you want to bind a variable named "CL:&OPTIONAL" 22:08:10 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:38 gigamonkey, nah, just a joke. I don't hate Apple, and I think some of their gadgets are nifty (although I don't own any), but I help myself to an iPad joke every now and then. 22:10:24 Apple makes decent-looking hardware, but their software and policies are such that I wouldn't want anything to do with them. 22:10:26 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.124.83.134] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:10:50 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 22:11:03 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:11:18 Adlai: heh, fair enough... i have variables named cl:&optional in my own code .. should have thought of that. 22:11:24 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 22:11:56 you do? 22:11:57 nyef: I hear you. But I've been so frustrated with this Linux notebook I bought half a year ago that I'm about ready to go back to drinking the Steve Jobs kool aid. 22:11:58 -!- zaphyr [~zaphr@smorge2.force9.co.uk] has quit [] 22:12:39 thinkpads don't let you down 22:13:08 gigamonkey: are you a Poulsbo victim? 22:13:10 I'm running on what I expect to be my last HP, even if it -is- mostly working in linux now. 22:13:18 Though it did lock up earlier today. 22:13:19 *Adlai* has a "windowless" Thinkpad T400 22:13:32 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-93.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:34 Krystof: nope. System 76. 22:13:40 (I blame either power management, the nvidia driver, or the nvidia driver power management.) 22:14:01 all the great hackers have switched long ago 22:14:03 gigamonkey: just get good hardware :) 22:14:18 Adlai: for sure... in some lambda-list parsing code, i name the the list of &optional vars &optional.... seemed like a good name. 22:14:27 When I first got it, it kernel panicked regularly which the support folks blamed on my wireless access point. 22:14:41 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:44 When the latest Ubuntu came out a fresh install fixed that problem. 22:14:57 *drewc* uses thinkpads 22:15:16 "If the kernel is panicking because of the wireless access point, it's not the access points fault.) 22:15:24 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has joined #lisp 22:15:31 nyef: that would be my theory. 22:15:37 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has left #lisp 22:15:39 can't argue with that logic 22:15:56 Xach: what do you use? 22:15:59 drewc, ah, that makes sense 22:16:50 guaqua: I'm not sure it's a hardware issue. I just find linux still requires too much fiddling for my taste. 22:17:23 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 22:17:27 gigamonkey: i've begun to think the problem mostly is a wrong distro 22:17:42 As if it doesn't take at least as long to get a windows system settled in... 22:17:43 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has joined #lisp 22:18:01 ubuntu mostly is the wrong distro, even by switching to debian - the stability and hardware support is better 22:18:07 Ugh. Linux distro wars again? 22:18:11 gigamonkey: macbook 22:18:13 gigamonkey: fiddling? I installed debian, stumpwm, firefox and emacs almost 2 years ago, and the only things i've touched is upgrading emacs to 23 :) 22:18:18 no, really, nyef 22:18:25 gigamonkey: next update will be whatever MBP is current 22:18:30 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 22:18:58 oh, and i installed google chrome. 22:19:30 drewc: well, I like to upgrade stuff too and the difference in experience of installing, say, the latest Firefox on a mac vs linux is notable. 22:20:21 I'm not saying I'm not an idiot. Just that I specifically went back to Linux because Macs were making me crazy and now Linux is making me even crazier. 22:20:34 Linux or Ubuntu? 22:20:38 since it's time for a distro war and gigamonkey likes upgrading stuff, I recommend Archlinux 22:20:42 make the distinction and act accordingly 22:21:02 guaqua: fair enough, I happen to be using Ubuntu. 22:21:23 Maybe I should try some other distros before I plunk down $2k for a new computer. 22:22:02 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 22:22:16 you should try 22:22:29 hi 22:22:48 Hello fe[nl]ix. 22:22:53 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 22:22:53 hi nyef 22:22:54 hello fe[nl]ix 22:23:03 hi Adlai 22:23:05 You're just in time for a linux distro war. 22:23:15 Gentoo FTW! 22:23:21 gigamonkey: GQ as described sounds distinct from MPCL 22:23:28 gigamonkey: when's the MPCL announcement? 22:24:42 MPCL? 22:24:55 hi fe[nl]ix 22:25:01 hi Blkt` 22:25:08 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:09 nyef: is the war already over ? 22:25:17 ... Might be. 22:25:25 (I hope so, it'd make for a short one, at least.) 22:27:10 blitzkrieg ftl... 22:28:27 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75546f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:35 Adlai: are u partecipating to Google AI Challenge? 22:28:40 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:28:49 nyef: I'd fix the array types before committing 22:28:55 Blkt`, no, but my code is 22:29:06 Adlai: ? 22:29:12 aka "yes" 22:29:22 ah lol 22:29:33 although my bot is pretty basic, and hasn't been improved in a few days 22:29:52 Array types? 22:30:02 it doesn't do any lookahead right now, just analyzes the geometry of the current map and decides based on that 22:30:03 *drewc* hands Blkt` a 'y' and an 'o' and a stern look 22:30:08 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:48 *Adlai* headscratches 22:30:54 gigamonkey: my own experience is that a package manager is a lot easier and more reliable than manually installing third-party binaries, or running third-party installers. 22:31:13 pkhuong: What did I miss with the array types? 22:31:22 nyef: Aren't (simple-array fixnum 1) and (simple-array (and unsigned-byte fixnum) 1) hardcoded still? 22:31:23 especially if a package has nontrivial dependencies 22:31:36 Hrm... Don't know, actually. 22:31:39 I'll check. 22:31:44 Anything else on your list? 22:31:56 Adlai: I see, that's quite well placed though 22:32:10 drewc: didn't get it btw...:( 22:32:17 *nyef* is about ready to declare the commit as Not Happening Tonight. 22:32:18 am i the only person who, when reading a sentance like "r u ..." imagines a person of less then stellar intelligence and a speech impediment hunt and peck typing on a mutlicoloured keyboard with REALLY BIG KEYS? 22:32:20 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-055-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:33 ah now I got it 22:32:35 sorry 22:33:14 drewc: it's my fault. I failed to educate Blkt` properly :) 22:33:19 Xach: not clear how GMQ and MPCL relate. I think they're related but I need to keep GMQ fro being seen as being too heavily Lisp oriented. 22:33:25 true 22:33:41 nyef: yeah. vm-array.lisp. I think the fixnum cases should be unconditionalside away, like the modfx stuff. 22:33:49 fe[nl]ix: don't let it happen again :D 22:33:51 *unconditionalised. 22:34:49 Ah, I see now. 22:35:39 Blkt`, are you one of the other CL entrants ? 22:35:51 At least there's no existing type for sb-63. 22:35:55 Ralith: so how is it that on the Mac you can just grab a file, drop it on your disk and away you go? 22:36:37 Actually I like package managers for stuff I don't care about that much--I just get whatever version they have and I'm good. 22:37:08 p_l: MPCL is the "More Practical Common Lisp" series I was talking about the other day. 22:37:27 Adlai: I wish I was! Since I've not been able to implement minimax as I mentally designed it, I fell back implementing minimax for tic-tac-toe and then generalize the approach... 22:37:52 Perhaps MPCL can be the first series of the Gigamonkeys Publishing arm of the Gigamonkeys empire. 22:37:57 Adlai: aka "I'm not that good at programming" 22:38:15 nyef: ah crap. the order in *SAETP* is important. 22:38:22 gigamonkey: works pretty well for self-contained packages, I guess. 22:38:26 Damn. 22:39:02 Blkt`, I'm not sure how much programming skill is required for this 22:39:04 greetings lisperati 22:39:21 Ralith: Yeah. So the thing I don't understand is why Firefox can be self contained on Mac and isn't on Ubuntu. 22:39:45 OT: anyone know of a non XML format for dumping graph structures and supported by \\d+ visualization tools? 22:39:52 Hey, if the ordering is significant, can the correct order be deduced from the actual elements? 22:40:02 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:40:03 something simple to serialize and restore from $LANG 22:40:06 fusss: graphviz. 22:40:11 Ah, no. 22:40:13 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.114] has joined #lisp 22:40:38 graphviz is a tool, no? I want a data format. will just fucking google it :-D 22:40:43 the order in saetp may not be important any more 22:41:06 it was important when hairy-data-vector-ref/set were implemented as giant case statements, because it was important to get more common array types near the top 22:41:16 oh, wait, that might be the :importance thing 22:41:33 Yeah, that's :importance. There's also something about specialized types in the cross-compiler. 22:41:35 Krystof: we don't sort by :importance in *saetp*, but we FIND on it. 22:42:02 the order is for pick-specialized-array-type, maybe? 22:42:45 which you need at xc time to cross-compile make-array forms? 22:43:28 gigamonkey: there's a FreeBSD derivative that does that, I think. 22:44:18 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:45 gigamonkey: I just had a weird idea for Gigamonkey Publishing 22:45:12 gigamonkey: Lisp Gazette :-) 22:45:38 -!- pdponze [~pierre@144.85.124.96] has left #lisp 22:46:09 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e70d635.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:09 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-143-157.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 22:46:30 mega1 [~quassel@3e70d635.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:46:43 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:01 made so it would be nice to read online as well as in print, with submissions from readers. Kind of a try to share some of the knowledge in more organized way (I was thinking of Monad Reader and Linux Gazette - for example, it was AFAIK Monad Reader that introduced Typoclassopedia, which was recommended to me if I want to continue learning Haskell beyond basic code inside IO Monad) 22:48:45 pkhuong: graphviz is just what we need 22:50:53 *fusss* has founded at least 5 ezines, and authored articles for their sole editions ;-) 22:51:36 ezines are easier if you're publishing hacklogs; nothing fills pages like the output of rm -rf / 22:51:55 p_l: well that's basically what Gigamonkeys Quarterly is supposed to be except not limited to Lisp. 22:52:27 Linux Gazette and Monad Reader aren't limited to Lisp, either! 22:53:17 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:53:51 "The Lisp Magazine at http://www.lisp-p.org/ isn't dead, though I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking it might be." 22:54:01 -- http://cybertiggyr.com/editorial-0/, 2002 22:54:11 lol 22:54:35 nothing new under the sun 22:55:04 you might also be interested in "Lisp Pointers" (1987--1995) 22:55:13 Lisp and Functional Programming 22:55:33 that ACM lisp journal 22:55:34 gigamonkey: that, or maybe a scheme similar to what I had seen on site, peepcode? 22:56:09 the first step to failure is asking for community input 22:56:13 -!- milanj [~milan@93.87.151.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:56:23 haha 22:56:38 the first step to failure is starting at all 22:56:44 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:56 antifuchs: can you be my Chief Morale Officer? 22:57:25 davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:25 gigamonkey, I think Brucio should have that role 22:57:26 hah 22:57:42 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.137.98] has joined #lisp 22:57:52 I can give advice on the pointlessness of many things (: 22:57:53 You will get nothing and like it, Orange-Man. 22:57:53 Wednesday, September 5, 2007 22:57:55 "Say What You Will About the Tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at Least it's an Ethos" 22:57:56 c|mell [~cmell@87.115.12.82.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:58 Were we discussing a print magazine, I'd suggest hiring Brucio to do a column for just inside the back cover. 22:58:02 billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-23-233.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:02 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-23-233.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:58:02 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:58:24 hah 22:58:29 *fusss* shouldn't cut and past between Window and terminal 22:58:42 fusss: Why not?^M 22:58:58 the problem was in the cut, not the paste 22:59:36 gtg start work 23:00:09 gigamonkey: I meant to say, you are about to produce something. that's really great, even if it should nosedive at any point in the future 23:01:26 doesn't matter how annoying failure is in the end, if you create something good in the meantime, it will have been worth it (I hope (-:) 23:02:00 hope that's more in line with traditional morale officer output (: 23:02:03 pkhuong: Would (unsigned-byte 60) => (unsigned-byte #.n-positive-fixnum-bits) suffice as the minimum correct change? 23:02:26 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:02:44 dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has joined #lisp 23:02:52 (Well, and the same for (unsigned-byte 29), for parallelism and if someone wants wider-fixnums on 32-bit ports.) 23:02:54 -!- yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:03:08 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:49 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:05:21 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 23:05:35 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:05:37 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:05:50 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:06:42 easyE [nVHPH3uny5@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:04 nyef: I'm converting everything to -fixnum and -unsigned-fixnum 23:09:33 Okay, I guess. 23:09:48 gigamonkey: anyway, I have pung a biology hacker friend of mine; she may be interested in writing about garage genetics and other stuff (: 23:10:14 It occurs to me that there's some rhyme or reason to the primitive-type-name that might be abusable... 23:10:17 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:25 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:02 mattrepl [~mattrepl@va-visitor-out01.fgm.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:42 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.137.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:18:56 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:19:01 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.238] has joined #lisp 23:20:11 Rewriting public wider-fixnum branch with the latest commit candidate. 23:20:19 (Does not include anything for the array types.) 23:20:46 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:35 pkhuong: If you want to commit the modfx stuff as well, feel free. At this point I doubt I'll commit tonight. 23:21:46 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-93.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:22:44 -!- [df]_ [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:22:47 [df]_ [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:19 Don't you already have the modfx stuff? 23:24:35 It's in the commit series, but I figure it's mostly your work. 23:25:10 No. I should be done with the array type in 5 minutes or much later. I can mail you a patch. 23:25:37 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-238.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:25:46 To my gmail, if you want to go that route, or you could just commit to CVS since it arguably is a cleanup. 23:27:48 Strav [~user@184-78.162.dsl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 23:29:01 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66215b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 23:29:57 CLOS question: can I access an inherited class slots from within a child slot's initform, or must I do it by specializing initialize-instance? 23:30:35 Strav: can't do it with initforms: that form doesn't have access to the object. 23:30:55 Strav: inheritance doesn't have much to do with it. if you want to initialize based on other slot values, you have to do it in the initialization GFs like initialize-instance or shared-initialize. 23:31:10 ok. I thought that somehow, perhaps the parent class would have been instanciated in some way. 23:31:41 thanks for the precision. 23:32:51 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-143-157.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:34:05 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:46 delian66 [~root@vps1.bgwebart.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:13 antifuchs: re pinging your friend, thanks. 23:35:32 Woot! Just learned that C@W is going into its 5th printing. 23:35:45 nice 23:36:12 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:38:06 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-055-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:38:53 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@va-visitor-out01.fgm.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:40:40 yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 23:41:35 mattrepl [~mattrepl@va-visitor-out01.fgm.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:47 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@va-visitor-out01.fgm.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:46:05 gigamonkey: well done, that's excellent! 23:46:47 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 23:47:20 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-93.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:49:02 gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 23:51:01 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:05 -!- smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:53:39 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:58:13 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-93.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:59:23 nunb [~nundan@59.178.168.33] has joined #lisp