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has joined #lisp 03:56:11 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:30 Why do we have funcall *and* apply? Can't funcall just be an apply with an extra nil? 03:57:17 funcall is an optimization, you only need apply 03:57:34 (defun funcall (function &rest args) (apply function args)) 03:58:25 -!- Gniqu [~Gniqu@softbank126110054131.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Gniqu] 03:58:52 gonzojive_ [~red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:03:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:03:26 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@ts1-e-p33.bmts.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:35 -!- cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]] 04:03:45 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:31 Besides being an optimization, funcall is more convenient in the situations where you use funcall. Using apply would require you to create an argument list. 04:06:51 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 04:07:12 Exactly what does FUNCALL optimize? 04:07:28 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:07:45 I'm legitimately asking in case that came across snarky. 04:07:58 it did! 04:08:09 Heh, damn text. 04:08:26 jondoh [~user@173-30-20-80.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:22 hmm, I was being a little dim with respect to APPLY 04:09:51 but not really, since it uses &rest args 04:10:07 Adlai: What does FUNCALL optimize, exactly? 04:10:16 There, no snark. 04:10:21 tmh: funcall is simpler: the number of arguments is known. 04:10:42 what pkhuong said, and what hefner said (about consing an arglist) 04:12:30 an implementation could special case the last argument to APPLY being nil. 04:13:11 hefner: it's still a pattern that deserves to be factored away. 04:13:49 Hurrah for compiler-macros. 04:14:00 Just turn it into a funcall. 04:14:22 If only compiler-macros for standard functions were supported ... 04:14:34 Zhivago: right... except that the question is whether FUNCALL is redundant. 04:14:54 since they're both functions, and they both use &rest args, you're still relying on the implementation to optimize them 04:15:17 although FUNCALL at least contains less magic than APPLY 04:15:34 apply is the primitive operation. 04:16:04 I'd agree that funcall is like eq. 04:16:28 That is, an efficiency hack for a common subset of functionality. 04:16:47 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:22 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 04:17:59 Hello. I'm having trouble understanding interning. Can anyone tell me why the following code doesn't define a function that I can call with (fun-name)? (eval `(defun ,(intern "fun-name") () (format nil "it works"))) 04:18:22 jondoh: (symbol-name 'fun-name) might be enlightening. 04:18:37 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:18:37 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 04:19:15 pkhuong: indeed. Thanks :-) 04:24:58 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:17 mhansen [~user@c-24-18-237-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:26 While this is a bit ECL-specific, maybe someone here might have an idea of what's going on. I'm trying to compile Maxima with ECL on Cygwin, but the build fails toward the end with "C::BUILDER does not accept a file "binary-ecl/init-cl.fas" of kind :FASL." 04:29:47 -!- benbeecher [~user@74.72.202.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:01 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:31:14 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:36:20 -!- smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:36:23 lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-221-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:51 Gniqu [~Gniqu@softbank126110054131.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:12 -!- Gniqu [~Gniqu@softbank126110054131.bbtec.net] has left #lisp 04:37:41 What is macroexpand-hook good for? 04:38:22 quotemstr: debugging macroexpansion. 04:38:32 ... isn't macroexpand good enough? 04:38:56 macroexpand only expands the outermost form. 04:39:35 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:40:45 -!- lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-197-087.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:41:05 -!- jondoh [~user@173-30-20-80.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:24 Okay, recursive application of macroexpand then. 04:42:27 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:42:30 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:42:54 marklarr [~user@173-30-20-80.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:43:02 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:27 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:44:44 quotemstr: what do you not understand in "outermost"? Macroexpand is already the fixpoint of macroexpand-1. Fixpointing a fixpoint doesn't do anything. 04:45:42 No; you call macroexpand (which calls macroexpand-1 until the car of the form is no longer a macro), then call macroexpand on each of the other parts of the form. 04:47:10 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:15 quotemstr: and how do you know which parts to expand? 04:48:26 You expand anything that's not already a macro. 04:49:02 Good morning! 04:49:02 really? so, in (let (do foo) ...), you expand (do foo)? 04:49:45 Clearly, you need to special case the special forms. 04:50:19 quotemstr: It is well known that such a problem requires the knowledge that the compiler has of special forms. 04:51:07 Or, rather, the thing doing the expansion has to be aware of what all the terms of each special form mean. 04:51:17 *hefner* would like pretty printers better if they didn't ugly up their pretty output with unnecessary linebreaks 04:52:04 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 04:52:04 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 04:52:13 quotemstr: the logic to handle special forms, especially macrolet, is complex enough. Why would you try and duplicate the implementation's macroexpander? 04:52:43 And macroexpand-hook is actually simpler? 04:52:54 quotemstr: yes. It already exists. 04:56:10 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:27 Strav [~user@184-78.162.dsl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 04:57:27 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 04:59:29 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:32 illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:59 quotemstr: one thing to consider. The standard doesn't require that the standard macros necessarily expand to only standard functions, macros, and special operators. 05:01:28 Implementations are allowed to have other special forms? 05:01:30 *_3b* thought it did 05:01:42 gigamonkey: they must macroexpand into standard stuff. 05:02:04 _3b, pkhuong: I'm pretty sure I'm right. Let me find chapter and verse. 05:02:25 <_3b> or more specifically, any non-standard special operator must have a macroexpansion 05:02:30 one billion monkeys can't be wrong 05:02:32 I have a perhaps boring syntax question here. I'm trying to write a simple macro to wrap calls to some maxima function. In lisp, I can evaluate a call to maxima by embedding it with #$ my_expression #, now I wish my macro to ouput something like (maxima::displa #$integrate (some_formula, x)#) ... How to I manage the #$ ? 05:02:35 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rjsmreftnxwcqcyx] has joined #lisp 05:02:40 cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has joined #lisp 05:02:44 (The theory is, you might have CL implemented on top of some other Lisp and you might just macroexpand into something that is meaningful in the underlying non-CL Lisp.) 05:02:58 *cough* cl.el *cough* 05:03:07 Strav: #$ is a reader macro; figure out what s-expression it reads into and build that. Macro work with s-expression (parsed values), not text. 05:03:08 rikjasno1 [~hell@81.172.53.138.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:23 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:32 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:02 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:04:02 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:03 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:04:03 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:04:03 -!- rikjasnon [~hell@81.172.53.138.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:04:03 -!- illuminati1113 [~user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:57 Also, is there a good reason that macros aren't first-class objects? 05:05:00 pkhuong: you have a quick hint on how do I can expand what the reader outputs? 05:05:24 Strav: use READ and play with the value. 05:05:24 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-219.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:05:30 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:37 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:47 thanks 05:06:14 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:54 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:57 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:39 Hmmm. I can't find any thing in the CLHS that says one way or the other. 05:08:32 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:23 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:23 gigamonkey: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/03_ababa.htm#clspecialops 05:09:35 gigamonkey: That's supposed to be an enumeration of *all* the special operators. 05:09:43 Also, the third paragraph. 05:09:44 clhs 3.1.2.1.2.2 05:09:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababb.htm 05:09:57 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:47 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-219.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 05:10:54 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:10:57 So here's some discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/2d2ad23ede79b93e/699f8c10cb144f6d?lnk=gst&q=javamonkey+macros+special+operators#699f8c10cb144f6d 05:11:30 Is it possible to loop through structure/object slot values? 05:12:11 yes, but nonportably 05:12:30 I see. 05:12:34 *blink* DEFOP? 05:12:45 Right. But I don't see anything there that explicitly outlaws an implementation defining say, LOOP as a macro that expands into stuff that the compiler groks directly (i.e. cannot be further macro expanded but isn't simply function calls). 05:13:40 Though maybe that runs afoul of "free to implement any macro operator as a special operator, but only if an equivalent definition of the macro is also provided." 05:13:44 "An implementation is free to implement any macro operator as a special operator, but only if an equivalent definition of the macro is also provided." would cover your case, in my view. 05:13:51 *gigamonkey* wins! 05:14:23 -!- zbigniew_ is now known as zbigniew 05:15:04 But, one could argue that as long as you can macro-expand LOOP it's not being implemented as a special operator; it's still a macro. 05:15:18 gigamonkey: In that case, it's both a special form *and* a macro. 05:15:20 But who says that the macro has to expand into conformant CL code. 05:15:43 -!- twopoint718 [~chris@adsl-76-208-69-249.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:15:43 <_3b> it has to expand into cl code if you call macroexpand on it... it can /compile/ to anything 05:15:49 clhs special operator 05:15:57 special operator n. one of a fixed set of symbols, enumerated in Figure 3-2, that may appear in the car of a form in order to identify the form as a special form. 05:16:19 It's either a special operator, a macro, or a function. 05:16:36 pkhuong: or non-conformant code. 05:16:44 _3b: on what basis do you make that claim? 05:17:06 gigamonkey: well, if we're talking about something else than common lisp, then all bets are off. 05:17:07 (I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, just curious.) 05:17:26 Essentially a code-walker needs to understand all special forms. 05:17:59 gigamonkey: 3.1.2.1.2 tells us a compound form must be a special form, a macro form or a function form. Figure 3-2 enumerates all special operators. 05:18:00 (in order to portably understand CL code) 05:18:10 pkhuong: so does CL require that standard macros expand into CL. Or just into something that the implementation can compile? 05:18:10 So, anything else must either be a function, or be macroexpandable. 05:18:23 If an implementation chooses to implement a special form with a macro then it could be decomposed, but a code walker can't expect that. 05:18:27 gigamonkey: you can have a macro that's treated specially by the compiler. 05:18:49 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:57 pkhuong: Or a function, for that matter: the compiler can treat specially anything it wants. 05:19:02 Compiler macros are a good example of that. 05:19:06 pkhuong: yes, but that's a different issue. 05:19:11 quotemstr: no, functions have well-defined semantics. 05:19:31 pkhuong: As long the observable results are the same, how could you tell? 05:19:31 That's not what we're talking about. 05:19:42 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-181-57.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:19:49 <_3b> well, is something still a 'form' if it isn't in CL? 05:19:51 3.1.2.1.2 could be read as defining what conformant code is. But where does it say that standard macros have to expand into conformant code. 05:19:52 got it. Thanks for the introduction on reader's macros, I'll read into that. 05:20:20 -!- Strav [~user@184-78.162.dsl.aei.ca] has left #lisp 05:20:21 I certainly can see where a user would have a case that they *should*. 05:20:46 So as a quality of implementation issue, they probably should. (Because otherwise you can't write code portable code walkers.) 05:20:54 TR2N [email@89.180.151.10] has joined #lisp 05:21:10 <_3b> i'd argue that the definition of macro form in terms of form, and form in terms of 'evaluated' and the definition of evaluation in terms of 3.1.2 implies it should expand to CL code 05:21:24 gigamonkey: seriously? That makes as much sense to me as an implementation that has CALL-ARGUMENTS-LIMIT set to 0. 05:22:12 -!- MetalDust [~hi@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:22:30 And maybe 1.5.1.1 "A conforming implementation shall not require the inclusion of substitute or additional language elements in code in order to accomplish a feature of the language that is specified in this standard." 05:23:01 <_3b> clhs: macro-function 05:23:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm 05:23:05 pkhuong: well, one makes the language almost totally useless. And another makes one already tricky thing impossible to do portably. Seems like a difference. 05:23:17 "Have to expand" and "need to be expansible" are slightly different. 05:23:23 <_3b> ^ another place that says non-standard special forms should have macroexpansions 05:23:37 Consider the case of a macro and a compiler-macro for the same form. 05:23:55 The compiler-macro is not required to expand it into conformant CL as I understand it. 05:24:09 gigamonkey: I can't believe 1.5.1.1 needs to be spelled out! 05:24:14 The macro should, in order for code-walkers to work. 05:24:20 gigamonkey: What on earth were people doing that provoked the inclusion of that sentence? 05:24:25 <_3b> right, but you can ignore compiler-macros 05:25:09 quotemstr: it's a specification. It should prevent brain damage, not react to it. 05:25:17 Yes, in this case macro-expansion not in compilation should be ignoring compiler-macros to produce comprehensible code. 05:25:35 <_3b> (though the same arguments about the definition of 'form' apply to compiler macros, if there isn't any specific allowance for non-standard expansion there) 05:26:01 pkhuong: One only prohibits what's probable. 05:26:16 _3b: so this sentence is maybe the closest to what I was looking for: "The macro definition must be available for use by programs that understand only the standard Common Lisp special forms." 05:27:01 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:27:03 Interestingly, for define-compiler-macro, "The name can be a function name naming any function or macro.", but the rest of the page only mentions functions. 05:27:35 especially the bit about FUNCALL... 05:27:56 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:30:04 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:10 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:30:14 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:26 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 05:32:46 3b: If compiler-macros that expand into weird stuff only come into play where a code-analyzer can't see them then it should be fine. 05:33:19 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-219.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:34:09 *_3b* would probably argue that implementations should just use some separate mechanism if they need it 05:34:38 Oh, by the way: if SBCL compiles everything, even the top level, how are macro definitions supposed to take effect? 05:34:53 <_3b> expanding macros is part of compilation 05:34:53 *Adlai* agrees that any luser doing a (funcall (compiler-macro-function 'implementation-package::%%something!hairy) ..) are asking for trouble 05:35:01 Wouldn't it have to read the entire toplevel, compile it, then evaluate the guts, which would include macro definitions? 05:35:14 quotemstr, macros are expanded in compilation 05:35:26 <_3b> clhs defmacro 05:35:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm 05:35:33 clhs 3.2.2.2 05:35:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbb.htm 05:35:44 <_3b> see the bit at the end about defmacro in top-level forms 05:35:59 Ok. The case I'm thinking of is (progn (defmacro foo ...) (defun bar () .. (foo ..))) 05:36:01 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:36:05 <_3b> also eval-when 05:36:39 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:49 quote: Just compile the code and run it. 05:37:26 <_3b> right, progn preserves top-levelness, so when defmacro is seen, it remembers it for the next form 05:38:09 republican_devil [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:38:15 In other words, it's magical. :-) 05:38:15 hello 05:38:40 quotemstr, only as magical as a compiler 05:38:50 quotemstr: What is your point? 05:39:01 Zhivago: I don't have one. 05:39:12 That would explain the incoherence. 05:39:16 I think it's fair to say PROGN is a bit magical. 05:39:51 You think it's just a way of sequencing a bunch of expressions but then it's also got this special intertwingled relationship with EVAL-WHEN and the top level. 05:40:10 intertwingled! 05:40:16 Hun [~hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:40:18 It's a way around the inability of macros to expand to multiple forms. 05:40:22 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:40:24 prip [~foo@host119-197-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:41:11 Zhivago: yeah, I get *why* it exists. I'm just saying, it's treated specially. For instance you can't use the otherwise seemingly equivalent (let () ...) 05:41:18 When somebody types "clhs 3.2.2.2" and specbot answers, it's doing something I'd like to have code for in my clhs.lisp, but I can't find the code on Cliki. It doesn't seem to be in the old clhs.el. Anybody have the code? 05:41:20 Sure. 05:41:23 LOAD-TIME-VALUE is crazy. 05:43:14 <_3b> Anarch: those URLs don't look too hard to build, 2 digit 0 padded chapter, #\_, then subsections as letters with 1 = #\a 05:43:34 <_3b> Anarch: code is probably in cl-irc source or in lisppaste source 05:43:49 Anarch, http://paste.lisp.org/system-server/show/lisppaste/clhs-lookup 05:43:54 _3b: Right, it's just not obvious: I'm thinking "split" here, Lisp with a Perl accent. 05:44:00 OK, I'm checking that paste. 05:45:42 Adlai: Ah, thanks. Looks more complicated than I'd expected, and now I see why it builds the whole table first instead of computing URLs on the fly. 05:50:52 bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-76-237.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:43 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:12 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-61-162.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:01:45 zaphyr [~user@smorge2.force9.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:10:43 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:13:57 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: work] 06:15:25 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-217-75.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:15:42 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:16:29 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440411.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 06:17:37 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 06:25:45 -!- cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]] 06:28:04 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 06:29:47 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:43:57 qed [code@powerprecision.com] has joined #lisp 06:46:57 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 06:47:22 smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:48:39 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:51:14 nostoi [~nostoi@80.31.169.21] has joined #lisp 06:52:43 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.1.120] has quit [] 06:52:49 fgtech^ [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 06:53:11 -!- fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:55:35 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:55:58 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-18-248.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:56:17 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:36 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-25-16.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:57:52 Hey all, I'm having quite a difficult time getting threaded SBCL setup on OSX 10.5 06:58:38 how difficult? 07:00:03 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:00:52 I'm not entirely sure how to do it, heh 07:01:09 I setup sbcl ages ago, and have always used it just fine from within emacs/slime 07:01:57 I'm trying to get webblocks up and running, and I need threads apparently - I downloaded the binary from the sbcl site, got a fresh copy of clbuild, but I believe clbuild is invoking the previous version of sbcl...or something along those lines 07:02:18 I'm pretty far down the rabbit hole and thinking it's probably best to back up a bit, and ask for some help 07:02:19 i'll not be able to help with clbuild, sorry 07:02:37 i compile my own sbcl 07:03:03 which is fairly straightforward procedure 07:03:24 Ah, I like straightforward 07:03:52 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:17 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:04:25 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@80.31.169.21] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:04:38 is there something nicer than NFS that freebsd has? 07:04:42 it's like: get the source (i use git repo), customise your features (enable threads for you), run make.sh, and then install.sh 07:04:46 There's a guide here - http://techblog.gomockingbird.com/installing-weblocks 07:05:22 Looks close to what you described, but just want to double check that it looks sane to someone more experienced before I go through with another tutorial 07:05:25 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:06:21 seangrove: step 1.2 looks fishy -- the file should already be there 07:06:21 -!- Hun [~hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07:21 hmm, maybe not 07:08:51 right, the file may be not there by default, but is described in base-target-features.lisp-expr 07:11:46 Alright, I've created the file and started building it 07:11:54 Hope it works out, heh 07:16:50 -!- republican_devil [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:18:25 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:19:12 how would one go about printing a vector normally if I have changed the pprint dispatch table to print a vector differently than usual? (I'm writing said pprint function, but I want to obey *print-readably*, in which case, I simply want to revert to the default way a vector is printed. I suppose I could copy the entire pprint table and rebind it when printing, but I'm not sure that's the best idea) 07:19:36 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:20:54 (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable nil))) (print vector)) 07:20:55 Axius [~hi@92.84.27.141] has joined #lisp 07:21:07 err, *print-pprint-dispatch*? 07:22:21 yes, so something like (defparameter *original-pprint-dispatch* (copy-pprint-dispatch)) and then (let ((*print-pprint-dispatch* *original-pprint-dispatch*)) ...print here... ) ? 07:22:53 ljames: yes 07:23:03 doh, it's a _read_table, silly me 07:23:06 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:23:08 could be a bit weird if someone else modifies the table though after my initial modification, but that would be unusual 07:23:49 That's what you get for not having functionally updated data structures. 07:24:39 ljames: modifies which table? 07:25:28 ljames: you can also go the other way: bind your own dispatch table when you need to print your vectors your way 07:27:24 modifies the pprint dispatch table, after my initial modification (I'm adding a dispatcher which tries to detect simple-vectors which have a specific element in position 0, and if it's found, it would print the object in a different way) 07:27:27 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66215b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 07:27:55 also, i'd probably want a defvar there instead of a defparameter, but it's not as important 07:28:29 gooraw [~gooraw___@109.126.52.172] has joined #lisp 07:29:07 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 07:30:14 mega1 [~quassel@pool-035d0.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:30:18 zaphyr` [~user@smorge2.force9.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:31:17 -!- zaphyr [~user@smorge2.force9.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:31:28 -!- zaphyr` [~user@smorge2.force9.co.uk] has left #lisp 07:32:08 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 07:34:09 hmm, that worked! (rebinding using the original pprint dispatch table) 07:35:22 Does anyone know of a way of doing something equivalent to (setf (apply ...)) or (setf (funcall ...))? 07:35:45 marklarr: equivalent how? 07:35:58 marklarr: what's wrong with (setf (apply ...)) ? 07:36:12 It's not required to work for user defined functions 07:36:17 and it doesn't seem to work in my case 07:36:20 as far as I can tell 07:36:21 ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has joined #lisp 07:36:44 I have object accessors that I get like this: 07:37:02 (funcall (intern (format nil "~s-~s" name desc)) instance) 07:37:06 if it's a function, then (funcall (fdefinition `(setf ,name)) ...) 07:37:40 object attribute accessors* 07:38:07 stassats: hmm, is that the same thing? 07:38:15 marklarr: foo and (setf foo) are different functions 07:38:19 Amazing. Rewriting the reader to use an explicit stack made it faster, cleaner, *and* less buggy. 07:38:32 same to what? 07:38:56 stassats: I don't understand, sorry 07:39:14 stassats: fdefinition? 07:39:45 marklarr: what about fdefinition 07:39:46 ? 07:40:04 stassats: what does (funcall (fdefinition `(setf ,name)) ...) do? 07:40:21 calls a setf-function 07:40:30 stassats: I see. I'll try that 07:41:21 say I 07:41:47 say I'm at the sbcl repl, is there a variable I can check to see what version I'm running? 07:41:58 clhs l-i-v 07:41:58 LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-VERSION: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_lisp_i.htm 07:41:59 mikol [~Michael@AMarseille-753-1-10-194.w90-37.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:42:09 thanks :) 07:43:01 fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:44:03 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.27.141] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:47:06 aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has joined #lisp 07:47:59 stassats: where do the args go? To access, I use (funcall (intern (format nil "~s-~s" name desc)) instance). I tried setting it now with (funcall (fdefinition `(setf ,(intern ...) instance newval))), and in some other places, but am getting errors. 07:49:22 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:49:24 (thanks for the help, btw!) 07:49:37 clhs 5.1.2 07:49:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_ab.htm 07:49:46 marklarr: this is for you ^ 07:50:25 marklarr: swap instance and newval 07:50:29 jdz: ok, checking it out. 07:50:51 in setf functions first comes the value, then other arguments 07:50:58 So I installed an asdf package on my old sbcl, and now I've recompiled, and apparently the platform/arch is different 07:51:07 So now I have to go through this: http://gist.github.com/306414 07:51:29 stassats: invalid function name: (setf funname value instance) 07:51:31 seangrove: remove old fasls? 07:51:46 Where is asks me for each of the methods if I want to try recompile it - how can I simply recompile all of them/yes to all/reinstall all? 07:52:00 Ok, sounds good 07:52:12 marklarr: (funcall (fdefinition `(setf ,(intern ...))) newval instance) 07:52:19 obviously 07:53:08 and find-symbol might be a better than intern 07:53:08 stassats: great, got it. I tried that before, but my order was wrong. 07:53:42 stassats: good to know... I'm a noob :-). Thanks people. 07:54:09 and don't forget the package argument to find-symbol 07:54:42 ok. What's the advantage of find-symbol over intern? That it won't create it if it's not already there? 07:54:46 stassats: Can't seem to figure out how to remove it, heh 07:55:08 marklarr: right 07:55:12 seangrove: rm *.fasl? 07:55:28 seangrove: find -name "*.fasl" -delete 07:55:39 seangrove: or find . -name '*.fasl' -exec rm \{\} \; 07:55:50 oh, have not noticed -delete 07:55:51 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:03 nice! 07:56:10 Think I might be getting closer 08:00:53 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:27 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:02 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:37 -!- borism [~boris@213-35-233-122-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:08:57 borism [~boris@213-35-233-122-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:09:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-51-130.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:10:26 -!- mhansen [~user@c-24-18-237-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 08:10:55 Is the asdf ":module"'s component-designator capable of specifying a sub-sub-dirrectory? (i.e. (:module "foo/bar" ...)) 08:12:14 (:module "foo" :components ((:module "bar" ...) ...) ...) 08:13:29 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 08:13:56 Ok then :) Just thought there could be a better way. 08:14:15 what's wrong with this? 08:14:55 (:module foo :pathname #p"foo/bar" ...) 08:15:54 stassats: Thanks, that's what I was looking for. 08:16:16 jtza8: what do you need that for? 08:17:21 Ralith: Well, I'm putting unit tests in a subdir "tests" and I'm loading them via an asdf file which is independant of my library's. 08:17:45 I have a module, and that module has tests too. 08:18:01 ... also in a subdir, that is. 08:18:25 mightn't it be more appropriate to just put the .asd in tests/? 08:18:33 (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "foo" "bar")) might be better 08:19:12 saves from pathname quirkiness on different implementations 08:19:27 Ok 08:20:32 Ralith: Well, no, not without another asd file in the module's test dir. 08:20:40 jtza8: but did you try :module "foo/bar"? maybe it's indeed possible 08:21:05 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:21:14 stassats: hmm... I'll check. 08:21:58 stassats: Yep, that works perfectly :D 08:22:01 heh 08:22:46 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-94-44-41-86.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:26:49 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:31:10 fiveop [~fiveop@g229083142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:33:09 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:33:38 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-91-200.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:34:12 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:34:34 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-23-173.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:34:45 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:35:49 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:40 Hmm, when I try to install spatial-trees through clbuild, I get: Not a repository: http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/gibbons/darcs/spatial-trees 08:38:21 seems to be unavailable indeed 08:38:57 i have a local copy i can put somewhere, if you need it 08:40:20 stassats: I'll just wait until it becomes available. 08:41:49 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:42:37 splittist [~3ecb01e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-xjnvajjevvajikjx] has joined #lisp 08:42:40 morning 08:44:50 -!- fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:44:50 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-152-207.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:07 fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:08 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-152-207.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:53 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:48:44 spiaggia: hah, that machine exploded at the weekend and no longer boots 08:49:22 you should be able to use http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/darcs/spatial-trees instead 08:50:52 when I get in to work, I'll try to work out something sensible to do (put it somewhere more accessible) 08:51:36 hello splittist 08:51:40 Krystof: Thanks! 08:51:57 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 08:52:23 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:52:30 Hello spiaggia. Lot's more Bx types checking out #lisp recently (or such is my unscientific impression) 08:52:31 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:53:40 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:54:03 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:54:25 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54:55 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 08:55:18 randa [~arand@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:56:30 attila_lendvai: dwim.hu seems to be down 08:59:12 splittist: That's great (as long as they behave). 08:59:35 Ah, well. Students will be students... 08:59:46 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:01:12 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757b58.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:18 tcr, thanks! it's a deadlock again that i can't debug because the sbcl backtrace is cut off... :/ 09:02:48 i'll try to debug it for a while, will get back when i released the deadlock 09:02:56 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:04:14 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-26-4.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:06:10 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:07:17 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:07:50 tcr, i broke the deadlock, it should be back up 09:08:12 -!- gooraw [~gooraw___@109.126.52.172] has quit [Quit: gooraw] 09:09:13 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 09:10:07 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:57 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:11:45 I have an issue with recent SBCLs - but maybe its just the clbuild environment on my desktop is hosed 09:12:52 after starting slime, if I go into a lisp source buffer and evaluate a defpackage, then return to the slime repl and try to use in-package to get to that package 09:13:07 then sbcl hangs - or swank does, its hard to tell 09:13:31 the repl doesn't produce a response and won't accept new commands 09:14:11 my laptop is running sbcl 1.0.18 from the ubuntu repo, and the same sequence works fine there 09:14:25 i've got an impression that it is a known bug with threads and packages 09:14:29 the same thing happens to me with the latest sbcl 09:14:50 I wonder how far I should have to go back to avoid the bug 09:14:51 spacebat: i've had that problem, too, but only when there are symbol conflicts 09:15:56 jdz: is there chat about it on sbcl-devel? 09:16:24 perhaps I should subscribe, keep my ear to the ground, so to speak 09:16:27 spacebat: i have not checked sbcl-devel. but you can do it yourself. 09:16:27 Why are backspace and delete token-constituent characters? 09:16:43 will do 09:16:51 quotemstr: it is described in the spec 09:17:05 jdz: The spec *says* that they are, but doesn't explain why. 09:17:09 At least not in the section I've read yet. 09:17:11 quotemstr: no it does 09:17:18 I'll take a better look. 09:17:25 quotemstr: i remember reading that part recently ;) 09:19:06 so we can have symbols like *I-KNOW-WHO^H^H^HWHAT-YOU-DID-LAST-SUMMER* 09:20:01 spacebat: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/511072 09:20:59 Go to call-with-packages, annotate the source file (M-x vc-annotate) and try to distill the revision 09:21:13 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:21:15 thanks tcr 09:21:15 quotemstr: and what does "token-constituent" mean? i see backspace and rubout syntax being "constituent" 09:21:22 Exactly. 09:24:00 a-s [~user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:20 clhs 2.1.4.2 09:24:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_adb.htm 09:24:39 Their exact intepretation is due to their traits 09:27:37 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:28:19 I wish to read an introductory course/book of logic for computer scientists; can you recommend me one please? 09:28:29 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:51 Section number 2.1.4.3 does not belong to 2.1.4 but actually to 2.1.4.2 09:29:28 clhs 2.2 09:29:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm 09:29:31 point 4 09:29:55 hmm, maybe i'm confused. 09:32:49 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:41 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:33:51 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 09:35:04 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:30 nested backquotes > me 09:40:27 marklarr: all you have to do is turn your brain inside out 09:40:58 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:54 jdz: lol. I'll try that. 09:41:57 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:42:15 looks like call-with-packages was last touched in 1.0.33.11 (2009-12-17) 09:43:10 think I'll revert to just before that and see how it goes 09:45:11 just curious -- why is it that /= lets you compare any number of arguments, but equalp just 2? 09:46:05 RaceCondition: and what would you want equalp to do with more? compare every argument to every other? 09:46:28 RaceCondition: EQUALP also works with stuff that are not numbers (: 09:46:29 i'm not sure if that would be necessary 09:46:36 jdz: the same as /= -- return t if all arguments are unique 09:47:03 RaceCondition: the opposite you mean, surely? 09:47:12 RaceCondition: the point is, equalp is recursive, and it remains to be found out if the function definition is transitive 09:47:21 the reason I'm asking is that I'm porting a small snippet from Python and in python I can (1, 2, 3) != (4, 5, 6) != (7, 8, 9) 09:47:48 RaceCondition: and what that python code should return?= 09:48:11 jdz: the same as 5 != 6 != 7 -- it returns true if none of the values are equal 09:48:12 That's because python does chaining. 09:48:13 RaceCondition: maybe you want to use reduce with equalp, maybe you don't 09:49:23 damn, I just realized this doesn't work in Python as I expected 09:50:44 I expected 1 != 2 != 1 would return False but it returns True 09:50:52 ...so sorry for the spam 09:51:54 fe[nl]ix, any strong reasons why there's no with-deadline in bt besides it's just not done yet? 09:52:21 RaceCondition: translating code from one programming language to another one-to-one is not a good idea really 09:52:48 attila_lendvai: with-deadline is not yet part of an exported API in SBCL itself 09:52:56 attila_lendvai: Also, do other implementations provide something similiar? 09:54:16 jdz: still, trying to do so can be instructive in both languages 09:54:16 jdz: I just wanted to know if I could test for the uniqueness of a set of values, nothing more 09:54:46 tcr, i know, but still... the API seems sane and fits the rest of CL. if other impls doesn't have it, then bt can signal a descriptive error (even at compile time) and remove a lot of burden from the users of it 09:54:51 RaceCondition: Write a test function (: 09:55:23 attila_lendvai: No that's not how it works. Just give up the illusion that multi threading is portable across implementations, and stick with sbcl. 09:55:43 schme: what do you mean? 09:55:44 Bx-threads does not buy you anything 09:56:15 You just have one level more you have to dig through 09:56:46 tcr, even if i stick, i don't want to see sb-thread: stuff in my code... i'll do the same abstraction in our util lib then. i want a single point of failure where people can read comments, etc... 09:58:32 RaceCondition: Write a function that does your testing, have it return T or NIL. 09:59:01 schme: yes? but what will apply it to my N values? it would have to do N*(N-1) comparison operations 10:00:22 RaceCondition: I'm not quite sure about what you are doing.. But I imagined that you had a list of ... things to compare. So just go through the list. and stop when it gets no match or at the end. 10:00:27 RaceCondition: No? 10:00:55 schme: nope, I need to verify all items in the list are unique 10:00:56 attila_lendvai: Why don't you want to see it? 10:01:09 attila_lendvai: If you explicitly qualify, search-and-replace will be trivial 10:01:55 RaceCondition: Oh. You want them UNIQUE. See your talk about using EQUALP got me confused there. Well yeah, you will have to compare everything to everything then I guess (: I'm sure someone has some nice algorithm or what heck to make things like this go a lot faster (: 10:02:34 tcr, if someone loads our code on a different platform then they will get a compile time warning and a runtime error _at a single point_ where things can be documented. that's the only reason... 10:02:39 RaceCondition: do you have a function that tells that two "things" are the same? 10:02:45 RaceCondition: python might make it seem like you aren't performing as many comparisons, but it would have to do just as many under the hood 10:02:47 schme: yeah... (/= 1 2 3 1) returns NIL as expected.. I need the same behaviour but with equalp so I can compare lists/tuples 10:03:16 spacebat: actually nope, Python just does N-1 operations... CL's /= works as expected though 10:03:17 RaceCondition: Yes. I understand. You want the opposite of EQUALP, and for more than two arguments (: 10:03:38 RaceCondition: that's if you use EQUALP 10:03:39 RaceCondition: so, (apply reduce 'equalp your-item-lists) not work? 10:03:55 schme: exactly 10:04:19 add quotes as necessary 10:04:28 reduce doesn't takes only one sequence 10:04:36 s/doesn't/does/ 10:04:41 s/takes/take/ 10:04:51 :) 10:05:24 ok, drop the appyl 10:05:31 apply maybe 10:05:40 I'm not an appyl user 10:06:04 yes, appyls are bad for your health 10:06:08 jdz: you mean't (reduce #'equalp your-item-lists)? 10:06:15 meant* 10:06:28 RaceCondition: yes, what's wrong with it? 10:06:36 that doesn't even make sense :P 10:07:17 RaceCondition: why? 10:07:19 first of all, (reduce #'equalp (list 1 1 1 1)) => NIL 10:07:32 because it does (equalp 1 1) => T, and the next op is (equalp T 1) 10:07:46 RaceCondition: well, you don't have to do it like that literally 10:08:20 well, even then 10:08:33 Even if we did take it literally... (1 2 3 1) would get odd, no? 10:09:12 (1 2 3 1) should return nil, if that's what you mean 10:09:24 Ya. 10:09:44 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:48 (= (length list) (length (remove-duplicates list :test #'equalp))) 10:11:07 oh nice. 10:11:16 or (equalp list (remove-duplicates list :test #'equalp)) 10:11:31 the former being better 10:11:40 stassats: I just did that actually :) 10:12:06 it just doesn't look as nice as (/= 1 2 3 1), but I can just write a function 10:12:29 Did you actually say what you want? 10:12:36 and it's not particularly efficient 10:12:41 A lexicographical /=? 10:13:32 so you didn't want python's behaviour exactly 10:13:53 He made that clear some time ago that he did not want python's behaviour. 10:13:57 spacebat: as I mentioned, Python didn't work as I expected 10:14:04 (or she) 10:14:09 but you're porting some python code? 10:14:11 ah, well, (defun unique (&rest args) (= (length args) (length (remove-duplicates args :test #'equalp)))) is fine for now 10:14:42 RaceCondition: how long would that list be? 10:14:43 the function name does not sound like predicate 10:14:50 stassats: quite short 10:15:00 jdz: true, I'll make it unique-p 10:15:10 uniquep 10:15:12 UNIQUEP 10:15:14 (: 10:16:23 yeah 10:17:43 or a macro that generates the comparisons would be neat for a small number of arguments 10:18:59 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 10:19:03 Ah, finally got stuff working. Thanks again stassats and jdz. 10:19:05 just inline it 10:19:33 marklarr: i'm still sure you're doing it wrong, but that's another discussion :) 10:19:47 (defun uniquep (&rest args) (declare (dynamic-extent args)) (loop for arg in args for rest = (cdr args) then (cdr rest) never (member arg rest :test #'equalp))) 10:19:57 i'm sure i missed something 10:20:04 jdz: haha, probably. Not the backquote stuff, though. I used (list) instead. Much easier. 10:20:11 bye 10:20:15 -!- marklarr [~user@173-30-20-80.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:21:01 -!- aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:21:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 17:13:42 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:42 17:13:42 -!- names: ccl-logbot ASau hefner grouzen zaphyr konr kwinz3 Stattrav ikki Adlai alley_cat banister`garden reprore_ milanj dnolen sbahra morphling sierinjs fe[nl]ix sellout rstandy pbusser demmeln gruseom Odin- l_a_m marioxcc housel mattrepl ramus smanek davazp bobbysmith007 splittist parolang xenosoz2 Alabaman fiveop tsuru` airolson TDT billstclair k23z__ dlowe Pepe_ UnwashedMeme jleija carlocci Jasko hugod adeht Athas mega1 attila_lendvai alama ignotus mrSpec 17:13:42 -!- names: Morbeo jan247 mgr HET2 savonarola legumbre freiksenet boyscared cods AntiSpamMeta ragnul egn_ Adrinael_ rbancrof1 Yamazaki1kun johs ``Erik Patzy stepnem daniel_ sykopomp beach` Edico slash_ Draggor Nshag fractalis jtza8 potatishandlarn Soulman fgtech^ qed Kolyan bytecolor prip smithzv dto alexsuraci rikjasno1 illumina` Taggnostr lpolzer__ Bobrobyn ace4016 benny zbigniew getha koning_robot guenthr_ rlonstei1 Phoodus Oddity ski ve Tabmow felideon djanatyn 17:13:42 -!- names: pkhuong @drewc porcelina Xantoz BrianRice dmelani CrazyEddy lukjad86 Modius Sumpen araujo xan_ ivan4th Xach Xof ecraven amaron spiaggia xinming_ leadnose hoeq erk cmm spoofy oconnore_ christoph_debian mdh fusss Adamant lesterc bdowning Amadiro Ginei_Morioka phadthai retupmoca c|mell tmh easyE spacebat ryepup blitz_ trittweiler varjag ASau` rapacity Fade madnificent Ralith DrForr Tordek Khisanth hc_e ineiros anekos tltstc billitch Helheim_ wgl tsuru 17:13:42 -!- names: mjonsson _3b` abeaumont schme lnostdal setheus jsnell cpt_nemo stettberger fihi09 srcerer Buganini slyrus plan9 austinh fatalnix nowhere_man tmitt dalkvist Axioplase_ djinni` dostoyevsky Aisling alexbobp bfein alec z0d joast dmiles_afk p_l mornfall eldragon vsync tvaalen koollman guaq antifuchs lichtblau fda314925 pok reb PissedNumlock mathrick rotty kuwabara eno clop dcrawford raison guaqua scode lisppaste rsynnott jroes fnordus [df]_ [df] joga frodef 17:13:42 -!- names: nullman madsy djm dym franki^ timchen1` yacin specbot minion tomaw borisc nuba ennen gz PuffTheMagic_ ironChicken KatrinaTheLamia hicx174 tychoish arbscht Holcxjo bakkdoor Ri- mtd foom krappie pragma_ sytse rootzlevel dejones ianmcorvidae kencausey froydnj yahooooo @Zhivago tic zmyrgel clog pr codemonkeyx lemoinem felipe p8m peddie reb` herbieB rullie Raptelan qebab kom_ Orest^bnc jyujin weirdo blast_hardcheese hohum fmu jrockway Darxus Borbus nicktastic 17:13:42 -!- names: _3b 17:14:58 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:50 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:17:10 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@128.164.18.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:17:25 Hezy_ [~Hezy@62.56.254.229] has joined #lisp 17:27:47 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:36 -!- dmelani [~dmelani@c83-253-52-14.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:28:51 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 17:28:56 dmelani [~dmelani@c83-253-52-14.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:33:38 -!- dmelani [~dmelani@c83-253-52-14.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:27 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:39:48 caliostro [~chatzilla@static-82-85-85-34.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:40:17 dmelani [~dmelani@c83-253-52-14.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:40:38 -!- caliostro [~chatzilla@static-82-85-85-34.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:42:38 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 17:43:21 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:43:58 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:45:30 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:49:43 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:49:56 holycow [~new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 17:50:49 -!- sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:51:13 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:52:25 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 17:53:32 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:56:50 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:29 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:06:24 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-057-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:45 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 18:07:56 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip72-204-42-139.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:05 quiet in here this morning 18:10:29 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:10:30 we're lurking harder[tm], drewc 18:10:32 :) 18:10:36 yes 18:10:45 *Xach* updates http://xach.com/naggum/books/ 18:10:50 maybe more code is being written 18:11:01 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:11:14 *hefner* is half asleep, cursing unicode as usual, confused as to why his attempt to hack an :external-format arg into ECL doesn't work when by appearances it should. 18:11:19 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 18:11:25 Blkt [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 18:11:34 *Xach* was surprised that the library has as many lisp titles listed as ruby titles 18:11:52 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:12:25 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:14:09 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:45 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e70ddf3.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:16:56 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-23-173.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:17:04 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-30-155.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:17:30 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-057-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:32 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:19:02 minion, logs 18:19:02 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 18:19:10 -!- Blkt [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:13 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:43 levente_meszaros: are you planning to come to Vienna ? 18:22:07 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-057-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:22:39 fe[nl]ix, what's going to be there? champions league match? ;-) 18:23:09 levente_meszaros: Vienna lisp meeting on 26 18:23:12 mega1 [~quassel@3e70ddf3.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:23:35 27 18:23:41 -!- borisc [~borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:24:08 :) 18:25:38 -!- smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:26:45 I didn't plan to 18:26:59 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:50 hrm, that's a saturday. i might go there... depends on gf, someone driving me there, etc... :) 18:28:57 What does #(1 2 3 4) etc literally expand into from the reader? Does it mean an array literal, or something else? 18:29:01 but not too probable 18:29:03 Or a call to vector or array? 18:29:31 Blkt [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 18:29:34 Modius, and array literal, and a single instance directly referenced by the code later compiled 18:29:52 so, no modifications to it 18:29:58 Modius, it doesn't really expand, the characters get passed through a read macro that returns a vector 18:30:12 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 18:30:24 (read-from-string "#(1 2 3 4)") => #(1 2 3 4) 18:30:51 attila_lendvai: Thanks 18:31:59 #(1 2 3) is like #.(apply 'vector (read-delimited-list #\))) 18:32:01 borisc [~borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 18:33:57 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:35:48 -!- splittist [~3ecb01e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-vsihlepzjvkoonrj] has quit [Quit: Ah, Vienna] 18:37:34 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:58 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-109-220.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:39:12 -!- alama [~alama@n138220.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 18:40:14 WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:42:35 Adlai: Is there any way to have a function literal contain locally-bound functions? (Guessing no) 18:43:08 dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:43:15 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has joined #lisp 18:43:32 Adlai: Bah - course not 18:44:44 felideon` [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 18:45:22 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-94-44-17-118.vodafone.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 18:46:17 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:55 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 18:48:22 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:48:37 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:49:48 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:18 arnee [~arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:49 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@ts1-e-p33.bmts.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:23 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:52:32 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 18:57:03 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-11-155.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:57:20 seangrove pasted "webblocks error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95119 18:57:39 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:40 So I'm having trouble with lisp and .so files apparently 18:57:55 I can run the weblocks server, but I get that error *constantly* 18:58:27 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:58:37 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-18-248.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:58:58 I've put the source on the pastie, as well as the output/error. I've searched on google, but I'm not sure about how to handle this type of problem 18:59:00 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:59:02 The file is certainly there 18:59:06 seangrove: one option: don't use linedit. 19:00:05 I don't know the real fix, sorry. Is that on a mac? Aren't they usually named .dylib or something like that? 19:00:41 I tried passing --no-linedit, but but get the same issue 19:00:56 they are indeed named .dylib or something like that 19:01:12 I am on a mac ;) 19:01:21 seangrove: who wrote script/server? is that part of weblocks? 19:02:01 Yes 19:02:10 Actually I posted that incorrectly 19:02:21 that's not tunes.lisp, it's tunes.sbclrc 19:02:42 Is there any way to do a "jump" to an address from a sparse array? Basically, seeing if there's a way to make an equivalent of (case that takes only fixnums of reasonably small size, and jumps based of a lookup into a compile-time generated array. 19:04:21 So I've done something silly involving this .so, rathing than compiling a .dylib? 19:04:51 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 19:05:43 seangrove: not necessarily, but you might want to contact whoever made the software you're using; it seems like it's doing a lot of work for you but perhaps hasn't been tested in your configuration. 19:05:56 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 19:07:48 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 19:07:57 abugosh1 [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 19:07:57 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:08:57 leo2007 [~leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:12:08 -!- Blkt [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:29 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:48 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:16:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:16:45 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:55 Xach: r u Xah Lee, if so i've seen intimate photos of you 19:17:05 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 19:17:29 banister`garden: I am not Xah Lee. 19:17:31 banister`garden: Bahahaha! 19:18:05 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:21:30 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:21:33 banister`garden: i'd be very careful going around insulting people like that! 19:22:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-51-130.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:23:02 I knew I should have quit reading at 'r u', and *really* should have quit at 'r u Xah Lee', but noooo, I had to finish that train wreck of a question. 19:23:05 devinus [~devinus@65.107.181.222.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:35 from bad to worse to wtf 19:24:27 drewc: sorry :) 19:25:50 banister`garden: don't apologize to me, i'm not the one you mistook for bloody Xah Lee! 19:26:31 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 19:26:31 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-30-155.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:26:48 -!- beach` is now known as beach 19:27:10 i feel compelled to link to http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2579.html even though it is not especially savvy 19:27:27 it reminds me a little bit of how exciting it would be to see Linux mentioned anywhere mainstream-ish 19:27:41 "Yes! Lisp is a thing I know about!" 19:27:48 francogrex [~user@189.98-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:27:49 seangrove: Chuwe is done in Lisp? 19:27:55 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon 19:27:58 felideon`: Nope, rails 19:28:09 Just starting to work on web apps in lisp :D 19:28:23 ah gotcha. any reason you chose Weblocks? 19:29:18 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:29:22 Not in particular. Seemed to have some legible documentation, and the examples were fairly clear. 19:29:38 hi all, I was wondering if anyone here has done coding "fractal" algos in lisp or anyone interested in that area? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal) 19:30:11 Fair enough :) 19:30:52 The other framework I saw was UCW, but there was a terribly frightening line at the bottom saying, "This framework isn't really documented but has been used very successffully by its author" 19:30:59 Just thought I'd be in over my head for getting started 19:31:11 seangrove: That's not frightening if you know who the author is ;) 19:31:12 where does it say that? 19:31:20 drewc: I think LoL says that, no? 19:31:24 Lo 19:31:25 Heh, should I presume that's you? :D 19:31:29 no hehe 19:31:40 LoL might, but UCW shouldn't 19:31:47 http://bc.tech.coop/blog/050724.html 19:32:12 UCW is fairly well documented at this point, and doesn't come with a line editor ;) 19:32:37 francogrex: you are setting off my gavino filter ;) 19:32:53 drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:16 drewc: sorry if you are not interested in what i say, but it's no reason to assume others will not 19:33:40 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 19:33:40 the impersonation is quite convincing at times, yes 19:34:05 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:11 francogrex: What are you studying with fractals? 19:34:22 drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:32 marcelinollano [~marcelino@81.36.24.31] has joined #lisp 19:34:53 tmh: i read today about it and also that it's a challenge to get the multidimensions 19:34:58 francogrex: that's not the point.. the point is you can't come in here spamming links to whatever subject you happen to be interested in today... this is not readdit. 19:35:05 -!- arnee [~arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [Quit: arnee] 19:35:08 reddit gah 19:35:59 drewc: no, the point is you have been given op of this channel and as a benevolent dicator you'd like to set the rules and ban people, that's not in the spirit of the free world 19:36:11 my links are not offensive 19:36:33 Is ccl64 faster than ccl32? 19:36:55 on the contrary they are math programming 19:36:59 francogrex: and this is not an instance of the so-called "free world" type 19:37:10 francogrex: i did not make these rules, and i was given ops because i understand them. 19:37:17 francogrex: I think you're confusing #lisp with a Ubuntu-like community 19:37:26 this is not a free world 19:37:30 it's not like ops are appointed by people's vote or anything 19:37:47 leo2007: faster how? 19:37:50 cmm: huh? and dictoros are appointed? 19:38:00 anyhow drop it 19:38:04 francogrex: now i'm going to wait for someone else with ops to kick you, just to prove it's not personal ;) 19:38:21 seangrove: by the way, I was kidding. and I actually meant the maintainer, which is drewc. 19:38:42 no need, I'll leave, your unfriendly behavior are making me hate lisp unfortunately 19:39:01 felideon: heh, very cool 19:39:12 Ah, seems that BDD works after all. 19:39:12 seangrove: yeah, i maintain UCW... and i'm usually around to give help/pointers etc 19:39:27 I'm kind of just floating around, being patient while getting to grips with the lisp ecosystem 19:39:32 Hello! Could you help me with CLSQL? I got strange "alien" error... 19:39:37 mrSpec pasted "CLSQL query" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95121 19:39:59 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:02 think about what you're doing and maybe useful to watch a movie called DAS EXPERIMENT (yes another link) 19:40:11 Alright, an embarrassingly simple question about UCW then - does it follow an MVC convention, or is there a different approach? 19:40:18 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:40:20 francogrex: Is it about people who say stupid things and then attack anyone who questions them? 19:40:43 Xach; who are you to judge me 19:40:45 seangrove: different approach, but MVC like. 19:41:01 francogrex: I'm Xah Lee, and my intimate photos are the talk of the Internet. 19:41:05 anyway, pls don't waste time on me anymore 19:43:31 mrSpec: have you loaded the relevant library for your db type? 19:44:22 drewc: yeah, I can insert data into my database... but cant use query or select 19:46:09 mrSpec: well... your paste kind of cuts off the the backtrace before any useful information, but i'm guessing the shared library has changed out from under clsql.. are you using mysql? 19:46:40 drewc: yes, mysql 19:46:50 I'll paste more 19:47:03 mrSpec: is "use postgresql and a better sql library" a reasonable answer? 19:47:33 drewc: No.. I have to use MySQL 19:47:48 drewc: that's almost as nice as "You're using the wrong Linux distro!" 19:47:53 shame. ok, paste away :) 19:48:47 Xach: well, i wouldn't let a friend use newLISP 19:49:11 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-19.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:35 mrSpec annotated #95121 "full" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95121#1 19:49:42 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:49:56 drewc: Is this enough? 19:51:08 tmh: I run my model with ccl64 and it seems to be faster. I don't know why. But I also upgraded from leopard to snow leopard. 19:51:19 mrSpec: 4: (CLSQL-MYSQL::MAKE-TYPE-LIST-FOR-AUTO #) seems to be the offender 19:51:57 drewc: what does it mean? sorry but I dont understand this line 19:52:16 mrSpec: M. on that function... is it a uffi (<---- look xach, another reason to avoid clsql+mysql) defined function or does it call one? 19:52:26 M-. that is 19:53:00 or hit 'v' on the stack frame in the debugger 19:53:38 *Xach* suddenly finds himself needing some json producing/consuming software 19:54:32 Xach: i think sykopomp knows a thing or two about those 19:54:37 mrSpec annotated #95121 "slime-inspector" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95121#2 19:54:59 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:43 mrSpec: i want to know what CLSQL-MYSQL::MAKE-TYPE-LIST-FOR-AUTO does 19:55:57 pjb [~t@154.Red-79-149-149.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:07 hmm what should I get after M-. ? 19:56:55 -!- devinus [~devinus@65.107.181.222.ptr.us.xo.net] has left #lisp 19:56:58 mrSpec annotated #95121 "make-type-list-for-auto" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95121#3 19:57:23 drewc: is this ok? :) from mysql-sql.lisp 19:57:36 -!- francogrex [~user@189.98-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:59:13 mrSpec: that's the one. edit that function adding BREAK's and PRINT's until you figure out which of the functions it calls are the borken ones. 20:00:12 drewc: ok 20:00:37 mrSpec: what is your mysql table definition? 20:01:36 -!- TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:01:56 -!- abugosh1 [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:02:13 ryepup: you mean what columns I have? 20:02:16 -!- banister`garden [~ooi@5351F893.cable.casema.nl] has quit [] 20:02:34 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-19.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:29 mrSpec: yes 20:03:37 ryepup: int / text / varchar / timestamp 20:04:51 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:52 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-19.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:20 btw. am I the first user of this library? :D using select is quite common ;) 20:05:32 mrSpec: not at all, I use it all the time 20:05:39 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:05:47 deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:05:51 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 20:06:08 there's been some recent activity trying to fix the type mapping, from mysql column data types to lisp data types 20:06:25 so I was curious if you had anything odd in the table that might have been missed in testing 20:06:48 mrSpec: how have you install cl-sql? 20:07:39 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:14 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:08:33 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:46 ryepup: using asdf-install 20:10:49 drewc: (clsql-mysql-field-flags field) <<-- this one 20:11:02 leo2007: I would generally expect x86-64 ccl to be somewhat faster than 32-bit x86 ccl, just because x86-64 has more registers. (On other architectures, e.g., ppc, etc., the extra memory costs tend to make 64-bit binaries slower.) 20:12:03 mrSpec: did you asdf-install recently (in the last month or so) ? 20:12:10 today 20:12:23 I am new clsql user 20:12:56 mrSpec annotated #95121 "clsql-mysql-field-type" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95121#4 20:13:31 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:13:33 eh wrong function 20:14:10 mrSpec annotated #95121 "clsql-mysql-field-flags" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95121#5 20:14:16 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 20:14:46 Also, in a 64-bit ccl, fixnums are bigger and single-floats are immediate, so that can make a difference too, depending on your code. 20:15:47 mrSpec: best guess is clsql can't find the mysql client libraries. What OS are you using? 20:15:56 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:12 ryepup: Debian 20:16:36 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:16:43 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:16:53 rme: thanks. that's good news. 20:17:05 it has already gotten to the point where it is parsing the results 20:17:47 ryepup: what should I install? reinstall mysql? ;) 20:18:33 hi, is there any way to do the equivalent of "(with-standard-output-to-string (foo)...)" such that (format t "bar") would, in effect, be (format foo "bar") ? 20:18:45 mrSpec: is it possible to paste the create table sql? e.g. from mysql command line "show create table mbank" 20:18:55 mrSpec: I'm not sure, you gave me answers to indicate you have everything setup right... You're not using an old version of mysql or anything? 20:19:01 egn_: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*)... 20:19:18 UnwashedMeme: thanks 20:19:58 egn_: Idle curiosity, why do you need to do that? 20:20:20 mrSpec annotated #95121 "create table" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95121#6 20:20:31 UnwashedMeme: here you are 20:20:45 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-169-165.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:21:03 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:21:19 ryepup: no, 5 20:21:45 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 20:21:52 ok, maybe I can try something else? instead of clsql? 20:21:54 smanek: long story short, I want to test sending arbitrary lisp (as strings) as a POST variable, evaluate it, and then dump the output somewhere on the resulting HTML page 20:22:04 smanek: very helpful for calling functions that write to standard output and capturing the reuslt as a string. 20:22:41 Xach: that makes sense 20:23:06 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:37 egn_: That seems a little scary (security wise), but I'm sure you've figured that all out. Sounds interesting 20:24:50 TR2N [email@89-180-200-34.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 20:24:53 drewc: btw I used yaclml for some mpd statistics hack, and I like it 20:25:00 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:25:29 smanek: yeah, almost there, right now it is scary, but the "lisp" the browser sends is just json and I'll sanitize/authorize each function before I convert it back to lisp and eval it 20:25:41 -!- pjb [~t@154.Red-79-149-149.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: must reboot this damn macosx for a mere upgrade!] 20:27:11 egn_: ah, that sounds more reasonable ;-) 'eval'-ing user provided data just scares me ... 20:28:15 smanek: yeah, for sure. if you're interested: http://paste.lisp.org/display/95128 20:28:23 mrSpec: We've found clsql to be quite reliable, and it's a very good library as CL libraries go. I think you'll find it worth pushing through any initial problems. 20:29:09 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:29:11 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:29:54 rpg: ok ;) 20:30:12 mrSpec: can you try going to the clsql/db-mysql folder (if you installed with asdf-install on sbcl it is probably close to /usr/local/lib/sbcl/site/clsql/db-mysql) 20:30:26 and do a make clean; make 20:31:46 adeht: i think it's the right way to go personally 20:32:36 UnwashedMeme: ok 20:32:57 you get a clsql_mysql.so out of it? 20:33:01 or clsql_mysql64.so 20:33:35 ephcon [~ephcon@n250-48.mtholyoke.edu] has joined #lisp 20:34:01 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 20:34:57 also, i know this isn't a good answer, but have you tried restarting your lisp? 20:35:29 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229083142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:36:14 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:37:40 UnwashedMeme: I have clsql_mysql.so, and I tried restarting :/ 20:38:00 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:39:14 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:39:27 mrSpec: What lisp are you using? 20:39:44 mrSpec: you're getting the error as it is trying to parse the result types on the set, if you select just one column at a time, can you narrow it to one particular column, is it any? 20:39:46 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-057-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:56 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 20:40:23 There are some notes about configuring your C builds depending on lisp, machine architecture, etc. I don't know if the ASDF build process interacts with make enough to tailor it properly. 20:40:31 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:40:37 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:40:37 rpg: sbcl 1.0.35 20:41:01 UnwashedMeme: hm ok I 20:41:06 ok I'll try* 20:41:08 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-057-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 20:41:13 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 20:41:14 mrSpec: I could never get it to build properly on ACL, and there were some issues about me having both ACL and SBCL trying to run with the same copy of clsql... 20:41:32 mrSpec: debian 64 or 32? 20:42:36 gonzojive_ [~red@DNab422366.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:42:37 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 20:43:10 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@DNab422366.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:43 rpg: 32 20:44:49 och 20:45:11 mrSpec: OK, that seems unlikely to cause problems. 20:45:27 I think I have something new... When i'm using clsql-sys:select , This error shows up only when result-types is auto 20:45:42 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-30-155.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 20:47:25 -!- milanj [~milan@109.93.92.213] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:48:11 mrSpec: auto is the default... 20:48:31 ye, I know it 20:49:45 (clsql-sys:select '(name) :from "mbank" :result-types nil) Is working... finally 20:49:54 -!- zaphyr [~zaphr@smorge2.force9.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:28 so when you have it with the default :result-types :auto, you get that error selecting any individual column too? 20:50:34 yes 20:50:45 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@81.36.24.31] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:50:48 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:10 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:11 thank you guys for help! 20:54:30 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:57:09 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-35-83.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:00:25 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DD95.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:47 daniel [~daniel@p5082BF97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:06 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@n250-48.mtholyoke.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:08 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082F0BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:03:18 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-19.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:33 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-131-19.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:04:55 -!- dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:10:33 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:14:23 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.68.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:15:24 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 21:15:29 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-61-162.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 21:16:21 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.68.101] has joined #lisp 21:17:36 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 21:19:40 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:28:41 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-35-83.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 21:30:23 mrSpec: my best guess is the auto type resolving is choking on the columns that are of type "int(50)" and "int(30)" I've never seen that syntax before, is that for a 50/30 byte integers? 21:30:38 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.68] has joined #lisp 21:31:06 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:35:37 marcelinollano [~marcelino@81.36.24.31] has joined #lisp 21:35:37 ryepup: It was varchar, so lengths 50/30 has left. but it doesnt change anything (I've just deleted this ) 21:35:39 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@81.36.24.31] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:35:55 marcelinollano [~marcelino@81.36.24.31] has joined #lisp 21:37:01 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:39:41 anyone knows of a simple but non trivial algorithm where parallel lazy evaluation is a big win? 21:40:00 in terms of implementation simplicity and ease of understanding 21:42:25 -!- fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:42:49 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:43:53 Blkt [~user@host-78-13-242-142.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:44:03 maybe I should rather ask this question on #haskell 21:45:55 -!- deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 21:47:09 fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 21:48:30 levente_meszaros: any divide & conquer algorithm? 21:48:54 FFT, for instance. Parallel non-strict evaluation, anyway. 21:50:04 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:50:33 pkhuong, I found this: http://www.nsl.com/papers/samefringe.htm 21:51:17 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:51:30 -!- fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:51:38 levente_meszaros: I don't see how parallelism helps here. 21:51:50 -!- ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 21:52:22 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:52:30 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:43 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 21:54:52 nor do I yet, but the guys in #haskell gave this example 21:56:08 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757b58.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:28 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@81.36.24.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset 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23:34:21 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:35:11 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:37:09 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 23:39:31 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:39:34 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:40:38 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:40:43 heh, (with-lazy-eval (take (labels ((recurse (x) (append x (delay (recurse x))))) (recurse (list 1))) 10)) 23:41:05 ignotus [~ignotus@catv-80-98-80-157.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:41:05 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@catv-80-98-80-157.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 23:41:05 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 23:42:34 or (with-lazy-eval (always (same-fringe (integers-from 1) (strike-off 5 (integers-from 1))))) -> nil 23:42:38 (with-lazy-eval (always (take (same-fringe (integers-from 1) (integers-from 1)) 100))) -> t 23:43:02 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DD95.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:43:54 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:47:10 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:48:32 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:37 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-19-86.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:12 faure [~james@189-10-217-171.paebv701.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:54:20 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:54:20 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:54:32 -!- drafael [~tapio@130.216.92.202] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]