00:00:09 and reduce would be better i suppose. 00:00:19 Modius: you're not doing anything like taking abritrary strings from the ICKY USERS and interning them, are you? 00:00:52 No - my test case is merely dumping a bunch of 65s to the response stream 00:00:56 grouzen_ [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has joined #lisp 00:02:02 is that a buffered stream? 00:02:12 -!- Hun [~hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:23 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:26 drewc: I don't know 00:02:52 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:56 load it into a f*cking image and find out. FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU 00:03:17 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:38 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-167-135-102.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:03:56 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:05:08 Modius: does your 'shutdown' function invoke GC with something like "(hcl:mark-and-sweep 2)"? 00:05:41 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-167-135-102.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:43 drewc: I don't know what you mean by shutdown here. I leave it running. 00:06:46 does invoking GC make a difference in any way? 00:06:59 you have tried that... right? 00:08:06 Ideally a full gc 00:08:16 drewc: I added a page that does hcl:clean-down t, the highest GC available in lispworks to my knowledge. After allocating something huge then calling this, it lowers the footprint visible on task manager in windows. Even after seeingt the threads go down, stopping the loadtester, and going to a "page" I added that does this, the memory is higher than at a previous point. 00:08:21 (assuming that LW lets you specify such a thing; never used it) 00:08:25 Ergo, I have a leak. 00:08:45 Modius: will LW give you a breakdown of where your memory is going? 00:08:56 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.79.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:08:59 (sbcl's 'free' gives you some sort of idea, for instance) 00:09:04 rsynott: By generation - later tonight before doing an overnight I'll add the emission of room t to the "gc" page. 00:09:05 and this is a continuous leak that slowly grows until your image crashed... right? 00:09:33 drewc: Since the chronic leak was fixed, this one is too slow to crash the image inside of 8 hours (by my reckoning) 00:09:41 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-138-123.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 00:09:44 a real memory leak, and not simply warming up method caches and the like? 00:09:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:09:49 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:08 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:17 I have it churning now on a slower dual-core XP but it probably won't fail overnight 00:10:27 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:10:29 Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-235-108.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:10:30 ah, yes, room, not free :P 00:12:11 Modius: failure doesn't matter, is it growing at a consistent measurable rate? 00:12:14 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:12:42 drewc: seems generally that way (it fluctuates when GC does its thing I imagine) 00:12:55 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.152] has joined #lisp 00:13:02 Modius: that's pretty vague. what are the numbers 00:13:18 drewc: I'll get some tonight 00:14:12 -!- Blkt` [~user@host-78-13-246-105.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:15:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 00:17:38 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:17:38 -!- illuminati1113 [~user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:54 illuminati1113 [~user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:03 -!- gigamonkey is now known as hackerfoo 00:19:02 -!- hackerfoo is now known as gigamonkey 00:20:58 Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:25 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has joined #lisp 00:21:25 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 00:22:12 lesterc [~lcheung@203-206-172-135.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:23:01 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:23:57 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:48 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 00:26:28 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-90383.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:27:42 Hi, does anyone know if there is a format directive for adding an 'ordinal suffix' (for lack of a better term) to a number? For example, 1=>1st, 2=>2nd, 3=3rd, etc. It's trivial to write, but I'd rather not reinvent the wheel, if it's already done 00:31:14 Well ~:r gives your ordinal words. 00:31:32 (format nil "~:r" 12) => "twelfth" 00:32:32 hmm, thanks peter. I'll just stop being lazy and right what I need. It's 10 lines of code ;-) 00:34:12 Incidentally, I'm hiring 2 lisp programmers in New York (http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/2-lisp-developer-positions-postabon-new-york/). If anyone is interested, please shoot me an email. This is the first, last, and only time I'll spam the channel about this ;-) 00:34:38 meric [~Eric@124-168-136-164.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:35:46 s/right/write/. Heh, been too long a day ... 00:36:03 gigamonkey pasted "ordinalize in < 10 lines. ;-)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95016 00:36:42 *gigamonkey* won't be surprised if there are some edge cases that fails on. 00:36:54 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.251] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:37:21 Golf, eh? #perl is just a channel over ;-) 00:37:40 You might want ~:d instead of ~d in that. 00:39:20 -!- Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:41 Blkt``` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-229-2.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:40:45 (defun ord (n) (case (ldb (byte 1 0) n) (0 "th") (1 (case (ldb (byte 1 1) n) (0 "st") (1 (case (ldb (byte 1 2) n) (0 "rd") (1 "st"))))))) 00:41:09 no idea if that's correct, but it was one line at the repl! 00:41:14 -!- umopepisdn` is now known as pragma_ 00:41:47 drewc: it seems to lack proper output for 2nd :) 00:42:33 oops 00:42:38 and 5th seems wrong. 00:42:46 and 7th. 00:42:55 and 9th 00:43:03 well, the idea is sound, just the ordering needs some work :P 00:43:14 -!- blitz__ [~blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:43:15 unfortunately, you can only reliably use such ordinalizers in English (and after apriopriate changes, similar languages) 00:43:32 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:43:33 I'd be rather scared of trying to write such a function for japanese or polish 00:43:36 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 00:43:42 p_l: i imagine polish has a completely different view on the subject : 00:43:44 :) 00:43:46 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:43:57 (in both you can cheat if you know what *kind* of ordinals you need) 00:44:12 but generic? nope, nada, mudada ;-) 00:44:21 -!- Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-235-108.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:44:44 pierwszy == pierwsza == pierwsze <--- 1st for male, female and "it" 00:45:18 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-76-21-113-242.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 00:45:43 fortunately, there's no "st"/"nd"/"rd"/"th" added after numbers, if a number is written as a number, it stays like that :) 00:45:51 brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:56 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 00:46:34 english is a bloody simple language 00:46:40 s/simple/easy/ 00:50:28 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:28 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:50:28 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:51:50 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 00:54:22 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:42 I'm not the only one who globally binds C-c l to slime-repl-buffer, am I? 00:55:55 gigamonkey: no such function here 00:56:03 eh? 00:56:07 *_3b* uses C-x b repl 00:56:32 Am I using a really old SLIME? Quite possibly. 00:56:44 *_3b* doesn't use the repl all that much though 00:57:07 gigamonkey: try slime-selector 00:57:38 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-153-159.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:58:46 Well, I actually like having a key that jumps me to the repl and back to my source. 00:58:53 Blkt```` [~user@host-78-13-247-158.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:59:07 I was just wondering what SLIME-using org-mode users used for org-store-link since they suggest the same C-c l. 01:00:43 gigamonkey: i actually M-x slime-mode in org-mode files ;) 01:02:13 -!- Blkt``` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-229-2.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:04:11 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:08 So, it's not strictly speaking, kosher that SLIME binds C-c s to slime selector for you, right. 01:06:14 Per the emacs key binding guidelines. 01:08:38 -!- mega1_ [~quassel@53d828a1.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:09:02 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:46 -!- fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 01:10:21 -!- meric [~Eric@124-168-136-164.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 01:10:43 meric [~Eric@124-171-40-157.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:12:56 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:39 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.169.67.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:10 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.28] has joined #lisp 01:18:48 bigjust [~jcaratzas@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 01:19:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 01:20:19 saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-69-107-96-102.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:20 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:12 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:24:50 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:25:01 -!- grouzen_ [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:29:50 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has joined #lisp 01:30:34 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:30:49 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:32:35 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:37:25 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.35] has joined #lisp 01:38:30 drewc: buildapp 1.1 does the dispatch-on-executable-name thing. 01:38:35 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 01:38:36 available at fine retailers everywhere 01:39:14 Xach: very cool, will check it out 01:42:06 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:23 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:44:46 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:45:13 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:29 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:29 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.25] has joined #lisp 01:50:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:59:14 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:54 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 02:07:47 -!- smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has left #lisp 02:09:36 -!- holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:43 could anyone tell me how to use the specbot? 02:11:38 is there any kind of ref-something somewhere? 02:12:36 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-62-235.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:14:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 02:15:25 specbot: /query specbot, then say "help" 02:15:31 fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:36 Blkt````: that was for you :) 02:15:38 -!- porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:40 FWIW, found this http://pws.prserv.net/James.Anderson/XML/documentation/ 02:16:07 fe[nl]ix: got it 02:16:45 the cl-http support seems interesting, definitly enterprise-ready~ 02:17:15 fe[nl]ix: I was trying with /msg, that was the error 02:21:37 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:35 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 02:27:47 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:11 -!- borism [~boris@213-35-233-122-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:35:31 borism [~boris@213-35-233-122-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 02:36:10 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.34] has joined #lisp 02:36:20 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:43:48 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 mdh [~user@cpe-98-155-93-99.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:41 BrianRice-mb [~briantric@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:40 -!- borism [~boris@213-35-233-122-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:51:59 borism [~boris@213-35-233-122-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 02:55:15 rares [~rares@174-26-86-182.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:22 gn 02:56:30 -!- Blkt```` [~user@host-78-13-247-158.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: good night] 02:57:02 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-69-107-96-102.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 02:58:01 -!- mdh [~user@cpe-98-155-93-99.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:11 i'm i the only person who associates the words "enterprise ready" with "crap" ? 02:59:16 am i* 02:59:36 nope 03:00:10 enterprise itself usually associates with crap 03:01:13 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 03:01:37 ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has joined #lisp 03:07:37 mdh [~user@cpe-98-155-93-99.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:07 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:19 -!- Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2009122116]] 03:21:06 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 03:21:35 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:21 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 03:24:36 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:24:43 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:27:12 defau1t [~kyle@2002:4242:dedc:1234:216:ceff:fe81:9f6b] has joined #lisp 03:28:23 how do you create multiple values for a single key in a hash table? 03:31:46 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:34:03 <_3b> store a list as the value and push stuff into that? 03:34:57 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:41 push it with cons? 03:44:57 -!- defau1t [~kyle@2002:4242:dedc:1234:216:ceff:fe81:9f6b] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:45:06 -!- christoph_debian [~christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:46:42 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:50 christoph_debian [~christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:08 <_3b> clhs push 03:47:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_push.htm 03:47:14 he's gone 03:47:21 <_3b> ah, oops 03:49:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:53:58 benny` [~benny@i577A7F30.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:54:56 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:28 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:50 -!- benny [~benny@i577A786A.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:59:10 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:02:29 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:02:29 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 04:04:43 -!- benny` is now known as benny 04:13:54 pevaneyn1 [~pevaneyn@9.19-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 04:15:12 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:18 -!- pevaneyn 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quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:18:53 Good morning! 05:19:07 cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has joined #lisp 05:21:54 Hello beach. 05:22:59 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:24:31 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:26:51 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-6-5.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:27:35 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:53 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-6-5.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:18 ysph [~user@adsl-221-195-99.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:10 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:05 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-116-212.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 05:36:44 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 05:42:32 LiamH [~nobody@69.63.204.2] has joined #lisp 05:46:02 -!- dralston 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[Quit: Leaving] 09:47:43 ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:48:09 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:48:55 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:50:39 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:10 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:51:17 -!- mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:54:50 Wait - is WienLisp201002 on the 26th or 27th? 09:55:55 27th 09:56:19 though lots of us will be there the whole weekend 10:00:19 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 10:01:37 DukeParano [~DukeParan@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has joined #lisp 10:01:47 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:02:30 peterwan` [~user@123.89.10.23] has joined #lisp 10:02:37 -!- DukeParano [~DukeParan@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 10:03:03 DukeParano [~DukeParan@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has joined #lisp 10:03:16 Hello 10:03:24 I do have some questions about Lisp 10:03:48 mathieu` [~mathieu@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has joined #lisp 10:04:07 we are eager to hear them 10:05:24 Is this language very useful ? 10:05:35 YOME [~YOME@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has joined #lisp 10:05:37 extremely 10:05:53 -!- YOME [~YOME@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 10:05:59 I really don't understand at all why you guys keep using and support it 10:06:16 oh well, another one 10:06:20 Oddity [~Oddity@66.183.67.202] has joined #lisp 10:06:20 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@66.183.67.202] has quit [Changing host] 10:06:21 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 10:06:22 DukeParano: this post might answer some of your questions http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4724/learning-lisp-why 10:07:12 You take a couple of hours fighting to eventually get a tail recursion and *whouaou* get the SAME complexity as naive iterative programming >_< 10:07:24 No we don't 10:07:31 <_3b> DukeParano: maybe you want #scheme? that troll applies better there 10:07:33 What makes you think we do? 10:07:33 Note that CL does not provide tail call elimination. 10:07:35 DukeParano: Unfortunately you only score a 2.5 for your current trolling attempt, better luck next time! 10:07:37 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 10:07:40 Scheme does, though. 10:08:23 aerique, i'm not trolling, i would really be conviced Lisp is Usefull, trust me 10:08:57 <_3b> DukeParano: start by not assuming we do silly things for no readon then :p 10:09:42 -!- mathieu` [~mathieu@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has left #lisp 10:09:43 believe it not, we don't sit around here writing little recursive functions for fun 10:09:51 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:09:52 I'm just stimulate you to answer "No we don't, have a look, how do you write this [smart example] in another language than our *brilliant* Lisp ?" 10:10:00 we write them for profit? 10:10:16 <_3b> sure we do... we just don't write little recursive functions for serious work :p 10:10:26 DukeParano: i think a lot of people are just trying to learn other ways of doing things. curiously, challenge, etc. 10:10:33 hi hefner! 10:10:37 DukeParano: you stimulate not to take you seriously 10:10:53 Duke: The truth is that lisp is not particularly useful. 10:10:56 hefner: I've been pimping ECL's swank backend; would you like to give it a go? 10:11:01 learning lisp is worthwhile just for the books :) 10:11:21 lisp / scheme books are some of the best programming books out there 10:12:11 tcr: okay, I'll do the upgrade dance shortly, maybe it will pick my productivity up out of the gutter 10:12:27 bob_f_ [~bob@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:28 this is an academic language, it isn't ? 10:12:36 no... 10:12:44 <_3b> DukeParano: scheme is the academic version, we use CL 10:12:52 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:02 Hello #lisp 10:13:03 In many ways lisp is counter-productive. 10:13:15 shouldn't we have a canned sales pitch to handle this situation? 10:13:18 It would be a very poor replacement for java, for example. 10:13:18 yes, it makes people talk with trolls on #lisp 10:13:26 mathieu` [~mathieu@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has joined #lisp 10:13:46 Oh it is that time of day. 10:14:08 *hefner* still hasn't worked out Zhivago's strategy of crapping all over CL on #lisp at the first opportunity 10:14:08 Zhivago: java would be a very poor replacement for lisp 10:14:09 tcr: thanks. I'll be there for the weekend, too, but the 26th is otherwise occupied (: 10:14:16 jdz: Largely irrelevant. 10:14:21 Zhivago: yes you are 10:14:31 jdz: Please learn how to use commas. 10:14:42 Java is widely used, so it must be useful. 10:15:10 hefner: Let me know when I say something untrue. 10:15:29 Zhivago: who said java is not useful? 10:15:40 me! 10:15:52 jdz: That is also irrelevant. 10:16:22 Zhivago: are you practicing your trolling skills? 10:16:26 So, if you want to look at lisp you need to think about what it does do best. 10:16:29 Shouldn't you guys be coding or something ? :) 10:16:37 jdz: Be quiet until you have something intelligent to say. 10:16:52 Zhivago: why should i? 10:17:05 jdz: Because stupid trolls like you are boring. 10:17:27 Zhivago: since when is this channel only for people which Zhivago classifies as intelligent for? 10:17:40 DukeParano: Common Lisp is a tool, and not particularly academic. People here use it to make web sites, write applications, do fun hacks, and generally to get things done. 10:17:41 -!- DukeParano [~DukeParan@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:17:55 jdz: It was just helpful advice. You're free to continue to babble. 10:18:08 Zhivago: exactly, same as you. 10:18:26 DukeParano [~DukeParan@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has joined #lisp 10:18:26 Duke: If you want to understand lisp then you need to understand it on its own terms, not in some ill defined notion of "usefulness". 10:18:57 -!- bob_f_ is now known as bobf 10:19:01 Is simplicity an ill definition of "useful" ? 10:19:34 Duke: Generally usefulness boils down to popularity. Popularity implies inflexibility, because consensus scales better than intelligence. 10:19:42 Yes, simplicity is a very poor definition of "useful". 10:19:54 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:20:01 -!- mathieu` is now known as DukeParano` 10:20:02 Banging everything with a rock is simple -- it is not that useful in many cases. 10:20:08 -!- DukeParano` is now known as DukeParano2 10:20:31 In many cases what is most useful is to be able to coordinate large teams of mediocre programmers and get them to produce something that works. 10:20:42 And that's something that lisp is very bad at. 10:20:55 If i have to change my mind-set to use a new Language, why this language has basicaly no advantage ? 10:21:07 Advantage with respect to doing what? 10:21:27 So i could eat shit it would be the same ? 10:21:43 Duke: Well, just eat it where I can't see or smell it, please. 10:22:30 (eat (funcall shit)) 10:23:06 -!- DukeParano [~DukeParan@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:23:33 DukeParano2: CL will, most likely, not force a new mind-set on you.. unless your mindset is prolog or something :) 10:24:18 Duke: Generally having more mindsets is useful in itself. 10:25:32 (is-not (my-mind-set prefixed)) 10:25:57 DukeParano2: really, what programming language do you prefer? 10:26:00 -!- knobo [~user@ti0073a340-0475.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:26:12 ruby of cours 10:26:25 Ah, well, then you need to learn about metaprogramming. 10:26:32 Since ruby people are very confused about that. 10:26:40 so how is your example different from is_not(my_mind_set(prefixed))? 10:26:59 hefner: Could you verify if ecl pushes :windows on windows? 10:27:00 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:05 hefner: onto *features* 10:27:12 my-mind-set.is_not(prefixed) 10:27:14 dumb 10:27:46 DukeParano2: that's not what you wrote in s-expressions 10:29:21 So rewrite it my dear 10:29:40 DukeParano2: i can't because you have not stated what you want to write 10:29:49 alama [~alama@a95-95-138-123.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 10:30:36 tcr: it doesn't, I only see :win32 10:31:31 ok 10:32:09 (setf (confused-p duke-parano-2 'mind) t) 10:34:28 Zhivago: you have written my nick in a lisp statement, is it an insult ? 10:34:39 hmm, i guess germans would be very cool with programming in Forth? 10:35:01 Zhivago.is_stupid? 10:35:03 true 10:35:35 jdz: Germany does seem to be one of the forth strongholds. 10:35:50 Why? 10:36:32 I guess because you need a large stack in mind to read German sentences.. :-) 10:36:35 schme: but from my little knowledge of german the verb comes at the end of sentences, so that would make postfix notation feel natural? 10:36:52 tcr: yes, that's the phenomenon i was referring to 10:37:02 jdz: Communicating with people is very different from communicating with hardware. 10:37:33 schme: even when writing stuff (one way communication)? 10:37:37 DukeParano2: taking out your frustration with lisp on the residents of this channel will not relieve your frustration, but does make you a bit of an asshole. 10:38:15 schme: anyway, i was just curious. 10:38:23 jdz: For a start that is only true for dependent clauses 10:39:03 jdz: And today's generation actually often does not do it even in dependent clauses in oral communication 10:39:23 jdz: Of course. Maybe if humans worked as CPUs .. then things coulde maybe be the same. Besides if you do not like the postfix notation then you could use the forth macro system to change the syntax ;) 10:40:16 schme: reminds me of dylan :) 10:40:41 jdz: Is not like forth forces you to actively use the stack and postfix notation... (: 10:40:57 But this is #lisp 10:41:15 I usually prefer reading English over German :-) 10:41:51 (In technical literature you'd end up with 40% english words anyway) 10:42:07 unless.. you're in france I guess. 10:42:13 isn't Germany one of the few countries that are pushing their own language in technical publications? 10:42:25 isn't that France? 10:42:35 Sounds like a pretty French thing to do. 10:42:39 lithper2_: Nope that's France. 10:42:41 i think Germany, Japan, Spain, and Russia are some of them. 10:42:44 And Iceland I think. 10:43:10 lithper2_: Before WWII technical publications were widely German I was told. I never verified that claim though 10:43:17 French TV ads are legally obliged to put subtitles on any English words used, their radio stations must play a quota of French music, etc. etc.. 10:43:31 Subtitles as in French translations. Some of them are ridiculous. 10:43:33 so what's the matter with french ? 10:43:44 Eh ? 10:43:59 is French useful? 10:44:20 tcr: I think that can be very correct (technical pubs being in German). In sweden we actually learnt german instead of english back in the days. 10:44:38 i've never seen any french words about lisp 10:45:20 is there danger in publishing technical works in other languages, and not using your own tongue. what do you think? 10:45:32 les langages lisp? 10:45:42 lithper2_: Danger? 10:45:44 lithper2_: depends on your audience 10:45:49 DukeParano2: Christian Quiennec wrote several words on lisp, in french. 10:46:30 lithper2_: and on encountering ultrapatriots 10:47:02 See also http://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~strandh/Teaching/Programmation-Symbolique/Common/Book/HTML/programmation.html 10:47:08 -!- bobf [~bob@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:48:51 GammaRays [~user@77.246.230.163] has joined #lisp 10:49:34 did you read it ? 10:50:04 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-02fe0.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:50:39 -!- GammaRays [~user@77.246.230.163] has left #lisp 10:51:06 splittist: this CL tutorial seems very good. There's any .PDF compilation?. Thanks 10:51:26 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:40 beach should know 10:51:55 unicode: yes, the page is generated from latex, so it should be possible to get a .pdf 10:52:07 it all thanks to irène durand, what a great woman ! 10:52:13 time to eat have a nice day 10:52:32 -!- DukeParano2 [~mathieu@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:06 ok, i've found the .tar.gz at http://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~strandh/Teaching/Programmation-Symbolique/Common/Book/traite-html.tar.gz 10:54:22 strange. 10:59:43 hefner: Ok, I'm about to commit. You need ECL HEAD, and Slime HEAD (after I committed); If you --enable-threads, it'll use threads, in case you compiled ecl with serve-event, it'll use :fd-handler (though I haven't tested that yet) 11:00:25 tcr: do I really need ECL HEAD? One from a couple days ago won't do? 11:00:51 *hefner* shrugs, git pulls. ECL builds fast enough. 11:00:54 nope 11:02:19 -!- dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08:16 :spawn won't work on windows though because ECL does not provide condition-variables there 11:08:28 but I guess windows is mostly an employment os for you 11:09:17 plage [~user@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has joined #lisp 11:09:20 G'day! 11:10:28 hello, plage 11:10:54 hefner: alright comitted 11:11:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:04 hello plage 11:12:08 I miss Factor everytime I write something like (min (v2.x (first points)) (v2.x (second points))). 11:13:19 hefner: what would it look like in Factor? 11:14:23 tcr: so, how are your plans for the weekend of the 27th? (: 11:14:24 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:14:50 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:14:52 (min (1st&2nd ...)) (: 11:14:58 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has joined #lisp 11:14:58 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has quit [Changing host] 11:14:58 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 11:15:31 antifuchs: I have no particular plans. I share a room with stelian, so I'll probably just stick with whatever he and luke want to do 11:16:04 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-138-123.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 11:16:22 I haven't been in vienna before, so I wouldn't mind the tourist hat, but I don't insist in it. 11:16:57 I see some of our engineering school students show their performance-orientedness here. Sorry about that. 11:18:26 dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has joined #lisp 11:18:34 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:20:40 jdz: assuming points was on the top of the stack, something like "first2 [ v2.x ] bi@ min" 11:21:10 tcr: we're looking to do the tourist thing, too. 11:21:16 *hefner* forgot more Factor than he realized, has to flail around in the listener to work that out 11:21:19 (FWIW) 11:21:24 (reduce #'min points :key #'v2.x :end 2) 11:21:51 reduce is slow! :) 11:22:08 The :end 2 is a nice touch. 11:22:13 complain to your vendor! 11:22:29 (and hope that they're not taking a three-month sabbatical) 11:22:34 tcr: cool stuff. I just got a dinner invitation for the 27th around 19:00, which is somewhat wedding-related {: 11:23:02 excuses excuses 11:23:13 tcr: I suppose an afternoon lisp meeting is ok though, right? 11:23:32 aaaand... are you staying through sunday 11:23:33 ? 11:23:49 y 11:26:50 -!- kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:28:49 hefner: in case you already updated slime, please do so again in 5minutes. I forgot to commit changes so the swank source files are compiled on ECL, too. 11:29:24 tcr: okay. (darn, I just quit my SBCL slime session too) 11:30:03 you should probably restart Emacs :-/ 11:30:42 antifuchs: Yes, we're staying from fri to monday 11:31:12 yeah, that was next, but I got sidetracked hacking in a restart inside the event loop so that interactive development was useful. 11:31:17 antifuchs: So it's not a big problem that you got to leave early on saturday, we can re-meet on sunday 11:32:17 You can play tourist leader! 11:32:41 (I strongly believe in austrian leader capabilities..) 11:37:33 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:09 silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has joined #lisp 11:42:47 brah- [brah@2607:f5a0:0:21::2] has joined #lisp 11:43:36 how come lisp is so popular 11:44:36 it is? 11:44:55 well theres 300 people in here 11:45:15 most of them just lurk 11:45:30 excellent (: 11:45:34 lots of students who have to figure things out, too :) 11:45:45 they teach lisp in school? 11:45:55 yeah, lots of AI classes use it 11:46:15 Phoodus: where? 11:46:17 has lisp ever actually been used in a big ai project? 11:46:19 though Scheme is more popular than Common Lisp for general programming classes when it comes to that family of languages 11:46:27 Phoodus: these days? 11:46:27 various intro to programming languages frequently cover it 11:46:28 Cyc comes to mind :-P 11:46:59 brah-: has C ever been used in an operating system? 11:47:16 rsynnott: not quite sure. Most people I run into have their only experience with Lisp in an academic setting; people of varying ages 11:49:48 Ralith C has been used for everything, it even has cross platform compilers that work, easy to find, easy to use 11:49:51 lisp doesn't seem to? 11:50:05 brah-: what gives you that idea? 11:50:07 I wanted to do lisp on windows, but it appears the only decent one you gotta pay for 11:50:26 that's incorrect 11:50:36 minion: tell brah- about ccl 11:50:37 brah-: direct your attention towards ccl: CCL is Clozure Common Lisp, or Clozure CL for short. http://www.cliki.net/ccl 11:50:38 is it? show me a free one thats good for windows 11:50:43 I got GNU Clisp for free on Windows. 11:50:48 clisp is good too 11:50:53 ccl is better, imo 11:51:08 no threading though. Is CCL the only free windows lisp with stable threading? 11:51:09 I'm just getting started so I don't know about the other one :p 11:51:48 Phoodus: for the moment. SBCL might have it on 64 bit, and if not I'm sure it'll eventually get it on both. 11:51:56 emacs + clisp are alright on windows 11:51:56 Phoodus: ECL has threads, might be stable. 11:52:01 SBCL doesn't have a build for win64 11:52:23 well, it doesn't have a _release_ for win64. Not sure what it's internal state is 11:52:50 I spent many days trying to get ECL to work 11:53:31 pretty sure ECL works more or less fine 11:53:43 funny, I got ECL building under mingw without much trouble. 11:54:03 we're on XP Pro 64, using the visual studio build stuff 11:54:11 trying to build either 64 or 32 bit never worked out 11:54:14 alama [~alama@a95-95-138-123.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 11:54:24 visual studio is asking for trouble 11:54:44 which was a bit surprising, as generating C code should have been a bit more blind to those sorts of decisions 11:55:42 but haven't tried CCL yet 11:56:09 we reworked a number of things to get around the lack of threading in SBCL/Win, so there isn't huge benefit to launching a new environment 11:56:31 but we're going to try ot at some point 11:56:38 all the years lisp has been around you'd think it have larger compilers/ides ready for the user 11:56:55 Lisp's runtime is very different from C 11:56:56 do any of them even compile the lisp code to native binaries? 11:56:59 or is it interperted 11:56:59 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 11:57:10 here we go again 11:57:10 Most are native compilers nowadays 11:57:15 well OS's api is all stdcall/C 11:57:20 so lisp needs to support that, obviously 11:57:24 jdz: heh. 11:57:32 brah-: you better find an interpreted lisp first 11:58:29 why 11:59:00 brah-: just for the mental exercise 11:59:40 I want speed 11:59:48 anyone can write a interperter 12:00:11 *Phoodus* knows a ton of programmers who can't write an interpreter to save their life... 12:00:38 brah-: that's the spirit! You want SBCL! You also want to use Unix, if you value your sanity. 12:00:47 brah-: your question was "do any of them even compile the lisp code to native", so why don't you ask instead: "do any of them even have interpreters"? 12:01:31 I did ask that 12:01:43 I said do any of them compile to native code 12:01:53 I know they interpert, obviously 12:01:59 oh, yes? 12:02:15 that's why i asked you to show me the implementation you had in mind when stating that 12:02:21 minion, how do you spell interpret? 12:02:22 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 12:02:41 -!- plage [~user@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:03:08 brah-, SBCL only got an interpreter recently. Until then it only had a native compiler. 12:03:29 and isnt' the interpreter fully disabled by default? 12:03:55 also, somebody mentioned CCL already. It has a native compiler on Windows. what more are you asking for? 12:03:55 Adlai: recently? 12:04:12 stassats, that's the impression I got from the last time it was discussed here. 12:04:16 cmucl has an interpreter, it was removed from sbcl, and then added again 12:04:31 a different one was added back in 12:10:58 do any of you actually use lisp 12:11:03 for anything serious? 12:11:14 yes, some of su 12:11:17 us 12:11:34 writing lisp compilers is a very serious activity, and is almost always done in lisp 12:11:42 what else would we use it for? a punch line? 12:12:43 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:13:38 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-138-123.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 12:19:30 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 12:25:59 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:26:09 -!- xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:26:37 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:28:09 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:28:38 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@e179115018.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 12:29:40 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:30:25 brah-: What made you decide to come today and ask these questions? (That may sound like a strange question, but you're not the first in the last couple of hours.) 12:30:26 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 12:31:09 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:32:22 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:34:08 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:34:45 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:35:24 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:38:30 rebra [~user@194.19.25.162] has joined #lisp 12:41:09 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.124.83.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:48:39 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440411.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:52:29 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:44 Odditus [~Oddity@66.183.67.202] has joined #lisp 12:52:44 -!- Odditus [~Oddity@66.183.67.202] has quit [Changing host] 12:52:44 Odditus [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 12:52:49 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:54:44 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:56:00 -!- rebra [~user@194.19.25.162] has left #lisp 12:56:17 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:12 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:57:58 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:59:20 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:06 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:11 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:37 plage [~user@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has joined #lisp 13:08:57 how to seed random numbers in clisp? 13:10:36 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-116-212.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:11:34 unicode: do impnotes say anything about it? 13:13:29 (setf *random-state* (make-random-state)) perhaps 13:13:54 now i've found this post http://jorgetavares.com/2009/09/02/exploring-pseudo-random-numbers-in-lisp/ 13:14:30 spacebat: where's the seeding part? 13:14:48 and make-random-state without arguments will return the same random-state 13:15:02 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:15:09 (make-random-state t) will create new 13:15:18 cmatei_ [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 13:15:25 but the seed isn't controllable? 13:15:33 seeding is implementation dependant, i don't see anything for Clisp 13:15:41 -!- cmatei_ [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:22 -!- meric [~Eric@124-168-167-95.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: meric] 13:16:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-140-133.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:13 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:17:14 brah-: you seem to have the mistaken impression that lisp is immature; the reality is quite the opposite. 13:17:47 brah-: I often have to ask myself how anybody can use something that is *not* lisp or extremely lisp-like for anything serious. 13:17:48 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 13:19:05 Ralith: you're a smug lisp weenie 13:19:17 stassats: I don't deny it :D 13:22:33 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:22:49 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:24:22 spacebat: (make-random-state) (print (random 10)) , everytime i run, ever get the same value 13:24:58 did you read what i said? 13:25:19 minion: tell unicode clhs make-random-state 13:25:20 unicode: you speak nonsense 13:25:26 aw. 13:25:33 was that another bot? 13:25:38 clhs make-random-state 13:25:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_rnd.htm 13:25:42 unicode: ^ 13:26:10 unicode: and i guess you're misusing the name "clisp" by referring with it to "Common Lisp" 13:26:20 clisp is a Common Lisp implementation 13:28:03 unicode: the clisp docs say that the random state is serializable 13:29:49 when I (setf *random-state* #S(RANDOM-STATE #*1011111001000000101000011110000000000110110011010100010111100110)) 13:30:03 then (random 10000) always gives me 5668 13:30:19 as a first value, I mean 13:32:11 ok, so i'll need to 'seed the seed' with a random value, everytime? 13:32:35 unicode: if you want the same results every time. 13:32:54 i would different results ever 13:33:27 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-219.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:33:32 Different results every time wouldn't be random :) 13:34:12 -!- l0stman_ [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:34:44 that seems a philosophical problem 13:34:58 no 13:35:01 unicode: then read the CLHS. 13:35:04 god does not play dice 13:35:32 mine does ;) 13:36:03 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-uedzqpdolnwtrpdg] has left #lisp 13:37:24 A most unfortunate quote, that 13:38:44 stassats: i read the CLHS, but i would expecting for a shortest way (if is) 13:38:56 wasn't einstein pantheist? 13:39:28 again, (setf *random-state* (make-random-state t)) --- is that short enough? 13:39:39 I thought he was a non-practising jew 13:40:52 but his sacrifices at the temple of minkowski certainly paid off 13:41:49 http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10B1EFC3E54167A93C7AB178FD85F4D8285F9 13:41:54 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:41:57 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:58 in some book i read about him, he said, that he doesn't believe in a "personal" god and that he had been misquoted with purpose 13:42:01 trebor_dki: apparently, more or less 13:42:22 Einstein declared he believed in Spinoza's god 13:42:28 trebor_dki: yep; he said that repeatedly while he was around, and got called a nazi in newspapers for his trouble 13:42:34 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:51 of course, the quote is also used to imply that he was always implacably opposed to all quantum theory, which isn't true 13:43:09 stassats: great! now it runs, (make-random-state t) requires the 't'. thanks 13:43:46 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:43:50 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 13:43:53 unicode: are you sure you read the clhs? :P 13:44:31 Ralith: i read, but i'm not able to understand some concepts 13:44:59 i'm, coming from C and COBOL, excuse me! 13:45:15 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-219.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45:27 l0stman_ [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 13:46:21 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:46:49 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:47:26 unicode: I don't think the concept that you can't drop arguments and expect the same behavior is alien to either of those. 13:48:39 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-35-83.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 13:48:57 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:50 -!- brah- [brah@2607:f5a0:0:21::2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:51:34 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-219.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:51:51 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:53:14 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-255-231.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:55:58 brah- [brah@gateway/shell/xzibition.com/x-yafedkhnjrantmnv] has joined #lisp 13:57:07 -!- l0stman_ [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:58:09 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-219.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:59:26 davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:26 tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:58 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:24 unicode: you should feel at home with a language born around the same time as COBOL; just forget your johnny-come-lately C brainwashing (: 14:06:51 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:06:51 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:06:51 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:08:02 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:33 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:13:08 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:39 TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:19:57 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:20:50 lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 14:23:23 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:23:23 bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:44 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]] 14:25:32 splittist: you right, but is not easy to change the way of think. Lisp could be like philosophy; the forgot mother... 14:25:36 -!- plage [~user@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:28:18 -!- splittist [~534c1133@gateway/web/freenode/x-brfeswlvjwnpesnu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:29:00 -!- peterwan` [~user@123.89.10.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:30:59 lispm [~joswig@g224121043.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:03 -!- delYsid [~user@debian/developer/mlang] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:06 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:33:39 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:06 peterwang [~user@123.88.7.91] has joined #lisp 14:37:48 -!- peterwang [~user@123.88.7.91] has left #lisp 14:37:54 peterwang [~user@123.88.7.91] has joined #lisp 14:37:57 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 14:40:37 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:08 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:42:32 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:38 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:43:08 -!- peterwang [~user@123.88.7.91] has left #lisp 14:44:09 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-185-162.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:52:15 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:39 zaphyr [~zaphr@smorge2.force9.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:05:39 bew [~bew@box254238.static.sdsl.no] has joined #lisp 15:10:25 zzza [~mat_zzz@ppp121-44-199-49.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:38 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:17:28 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: out] 15:17:37 Axius [~hi@92.82.78.71] has joined #lisp 15:18:05 hankhero [~Adium@static-213-115-115-100.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:19:37 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.78.71] has quit [Client Quit] 15:23:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-255-231.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:26:09 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:28:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:47 mega1 [~quassel@3e44a7fb.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:33:11 -!- zzza [~mat_zzz@ppp121-44-199-49.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:33:38 UnwashedMeme [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:34:33 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:36 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:48 -!- bew [~bew@box254238.static.sdsl.no] has quit [Quit: bew] 15:38:18 ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has joined #lisp 15:38:28 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:29 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:22 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:43 ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has joined #lisp 15:43:01 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:47:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:47:26 brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has joined #lisp 15:48:26 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:50 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 15:49:47 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:37 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:54:56 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 15:55:58 fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 15:56:54 Greetings lispers 15:57:20 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 15:58:27 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:59:31 In SBCL, if you execute a function in a thread, do you have access to the REPL while it is running? This doesn't happen in SLIME, but I was wondering if it happened otherwise. 16:00:18 -!- fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00:23 dmelani [~dmelani@c83-253-52-14.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:01:42 tmh: what kind of access? 16:01:42 tmh: what do you mean doesn't happen in SLIME? what communication style do you use? 16:01:44 Guest61714 [~user@xdsl-87-78-101-62.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:57 tmh: do you mean writing to the repl's streams? 16:02:13 fiveop [~fiveop@e179115018.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:35 By access, I able to continue to enter SEXPRs. 16:02:38 *mean* 16:02:46 *tmh* is experiencing some IRC lag. 16:03:17 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:22 if I do (sb-thread::make-thread (lambda () (loop))) I can continue using the repl 16:03:22 levente_meszaros, memo from tcr: I think you or attila were not so long ago looking for a way to expand type specifiers. I just committed that to SBCL. Tell if it suits your needs. 16:05:00 levente_meszaros: Ok, thanks. 16:05:10 -!- Guest61714 [~user@xdsl-87-78-101-62.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:01 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:07:49 DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-7-185.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:55 -!- DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-7-185.balt.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 16:08:10 fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 16:08:22 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:10:27 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DF31.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:41 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-101-62.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:27 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-91-200.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:15:55 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-101-62.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:18:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:19:18 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-101-62.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:19:39 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 16:22:55 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 16:23:04 -!- hankhero [~Adium@static-213-115-115-100.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:23:05 minion: memo for nyef: would a constant for fixnum-lowtag-values be a good idea instead of (mapcar #'symbol-value fixnum-lowtags)? 16:23:05 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 16:23:28 -!- Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:57 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:27:38 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:28:06 -!- FufieToo [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:30:55 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:04 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:34:16 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:04 anyone knows if scheme's named let has already been written for CL? 16:35:07 tmh: sure you do 16:35:39 nowhere_man: There's a named-let in sbcl sources, shudder... 16:35:52 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:37:00 tcr, I have seen the type expand changes, I guess it's compatible with the older sb-kernel::type-expand mechanism 16:37:03 I already use that 16:37:47 minion: memo for nyef: in call.lisp, do you think there's a way to fix the shl/sub/shr sequence, or at least uoptimise it a tiny bit? 16:37:48 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 16:41:01 pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:41:21 Moin moin! 16:43:42 etate [~cmalune@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:10 sepult`` [~user@xdsl-87-78-122-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:45:46 -!- sepult`` is now known as sepult 16:45:57 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-122-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:58 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 16:46:04 minion: memo for nyef: is is_lisp_pointer right for all 3 fixnum widths on x86-64? 16:46:04 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 16:46:18 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-101-62.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:46:35 heh the minimax algorith finally started to make sense. Finished that oware project in common lisp for class. Makes a lot more sense now. 16:48:18 -!- zaphyr [~zaphr@smorge2.force9.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:48:33 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-122-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:48:55 uranther [~James@c-98-222-201-170.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:52 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-122-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:51:19 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-122-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:52:14 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-122-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:35 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:53:32 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:41 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-122-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:00:30 tcr: thanks, that's beautiful, how small it is 17:00:51 I'm still totally amazed on a regular basis by how Lisp code can be short 17:01:02 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:03:45 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 17:12:13 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:13:37 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:01 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 17:18:50 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:13 porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:45 Yay for pure functional data structures in fare-utils. 17:20:45 Fare, memo from trebor_dki: thanks for you help. it was locatives or locf what i was looking for (yesterday). 17:20:45 Fare, memo from lichtblau: btw, Allegro has a seed argument as the second value to make-random-state. 17:21:37 pure avl trees, pure hash tables -- what more do you need? 17:24:33 urnthr [~James@c-98-226-156-13.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:46 did someone check out hu.dwim.lazy-eval, I'm would like to get some useful comments 17:25:20 pure hash tables? 17:25:30 levente_meszaros, does it work well in a concurrent setting? 17:25:42 pkhuong, yes. Adding pure-equal-hash-tables right now 17:25:54 this style of programming is surprisingly nice, I found. 17:26:03 http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/frideau/fare-utils.git;a=blob;f=pure-hash-tables.lisp 17:26:23 Fare, no, it doesn't, but a first version would not be difficult I think 17:26:58 one probably does not want to do locking when no concurrency is intended 17:26:58 Fare: I realize CL can do anything, but wouldn't you be better off use a purely functional language? Or are you mixing styles? 17:27:20 tmh: CL has a pure functional language subset 17:27:35 and CLOS dispatch to build datastructure interfaces is nice. 17:28:05 -!- uranther [~James@c-98-222-201-170.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:28:16 nicer than using PLT units, in a way. 17:28:22 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 17:28:27 I am using CLOS, in a pure way 17:28:42 (I do have a setf in a shared-initialize method, though) 17:29:29 Fare: So... you want your cake and be able to eat it as well? 17:29:35 Fare: how does that give you constant-time (expected/amortised) operations? 17:29:50 yes, that's what functional data structures do: you can modify them and have the original, too! 17:30:05 pkhuong, logarithmic only, sorry. 17:31:02 Anarch_ [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 17:31:17 hmm, making lazy-eval parallel would be a nice work to do 17:31:26 levente_meszaros, combining laziness and pure functional, we could have the okasaki book in CL... 17:31:39 Fare: Okasaki uses an eager language. 17:31:58 he uses delay/force. 17:32:12 That's just as straightforward in CL. 17:32:13 of course it can be done in CL, no one ever doubted it. It just hasn't been so far. 17:32:26 an interesting idea in my lazy eval stuff is that you can mix eager and lazy pretty easily 17:32:28 In fact, he uses an impure eager language. 17:32:45 he doesn't use any impure feature, except to implement delay/force. 17:33:21 once again, there's no argument here. 17:33:38 but speaking of missing libraries in CL, that's one thing 17:33:52 Your statement makes as much sense as saying that, combining laziness and pure functional, we could have okasaki's book in SML. 17:34:02 also, I'm liking this style (gf interface arguments...) 17:34:13 another think I'd like to explore is to gain more control on what to delay and what not wrt. to laziness strategies 17:34:15 we could, we can, and we do! 17:34:26 in CL, we could, we can, and we don't (yet) 17:34:30 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:34:58 where the interface controls the gf, and the gf is otherwise pure. 17:35:07 haha. I remember when I started using <> for classes. 17:35:24 I'd just started learning Lisp, and I'd read in a style guy that "Dylan uses <> for class names" 17:35:37 and I figured Dylan was some famous lisper or something, and that it seemed like a good idea :) 17:36:01 next thing you'll say, ML was originally implemented in Lisp, and so all we need is run the ML code in an old ML implementation, and we already have this stuff in Lisp! 17:36:03 I'm not sure I'd call dictionaries without expected O(1) access hash tables btw. Unordered maps maybe? 17:36:31 pure hash tables have O(ln n) access. 17:36:45 that's why I don't omit "pure". 17:37:06 -!- NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-54-82-251-108-182.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:37:19 Let me guess... pure arrays have O(lg n) access? Don't call them arrays then. 17:37:37 You call them arrays if they provide for fast random access. 17:38:04 Fare: no, I'm just saying that your precondition (combining laziness and pure functional) is irrelevant. 17:38:18 with the memory hierarchy, even impure arrays are O(lg n) for large n. 17:38:19 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:45 for large n, we quickly hit the physical limits of the motherboard. 17:38:51 pkhuong, laziness and pure functional is what Okasaki's book is all about. 17:39:31 pkhuong, for large n, you access the disk, network, etc., in keeping with logarithmic slowdown. 17:39:33 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-196-51.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:40:14 I think we agree on everything -- we just say it differently. 17:40:48 You may easily play a joke on a man who likes to argue  agree with him.  Edgar Waston Howe 17:41:38 Fare: What is the use case where accessing the disk is acceptable in terms of performance? 17:42:00 sykopomp, ISLisp also uses <> for class names 17:42:17 tmh: when your data set exceeds your memory? 17:42:18 tmh: plenty of databases do it 17:43:56 Let me clarify, when is accessing an array from disk acceptable? If I'm using an array, I don't expect to accessing the disk. 17:45:00 tmh: you've never mmap() a very large file??? 17:45:23 one that's bigger than your physical memory? 17:46:00 just because the OS does it for you doesn't mean it's not being done... 17:46:06 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has left #lisp 17:46:12 Fare: Not explicitly. When I see the commercial FEA package that I use paging to disk, I revise my model or if I can justify it, buy more RAM, because paging to disk is not acceptable. 17:46:15 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:46:39 I notice when stuff is being paged and do everything I can to avoid it. 17:47:11 if you keep thrashing, it's bad. That doesn't mean that paging is bad in general. 17:47:39 tmh: there's a difference between "working set" and "data size" 17:47:53 if your working set exceeds available fast storage, you've lost 17:48:08 that doesn't stop you from linearly-addressing data sets larger than your available fast storage 17:48:29 Xof: what's your position in the (seed-random-state x) vs (make-random-state x &optional y) debate? 17:48:45 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-30-82-253-169-88.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:30 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 17:49:59 see also large single-address-space OSes, where the whole distributed system is addressed with 64-bit or 128-bit pointers. It's all mapped into memory at some level, but you better not need to page all of it into one node. 17:50:28 Krystof: but when the working set fits in memory, the cost of paging stuff is an amortised linear cost. 17:50:30 Xof: fair enough. My general rule of thumb is that I should be able to fire off an analysis when I go to bed and review the results before lunch so I can make revisions in the afternoon. So it should take no more than ~8-10 hours and if it starts paging, it will most likely exceed that. 17:50:30 Xof: if the &optional extension style is preferred, I'll send an amended patch. 17:51:06 speaking generally, I think I prefer &key to &optional 17:51:20 Xof: ok, so &key or new function? 17:51:29 drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 17:52:13 if break ANSI tests is the issue I think it is, I better get it fixed before release. 17:52:47 banisterfiend [~ooi@5351F893.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 17:53:08 hey guys, how do i invoke an anonymous function in common lisp? i can't just go (myfunc blah) like i can in scheme, right? 17:53:12 pkhuong, with that definition of "linear" we can also consider that logarithmic time == constant time. 17:53:32 Fare: how? 17:53:35 banisterfiend, (funcall blah args...) 17:53:55 Fare: but ordinary functions in common lisp can jus be invoked like (blah args) right? 17:54:17 pkhuong, the largish factor that makes your cost linear is exactly the logarithmic backoff factor due to large data size. 17:54:23 Fare: btw does having to invoke anonymous functions like that in common lisp make functions not 'first class' (as they are in scheme) ? 17:54:33 banisterfiend, you're confused, but in first approximation, yes 17:54:59 Fare: what largish factor? My point is simply that when the working set fits in memory, everything is paged in at most once. 17:55:13 in CL, you have two obvious namespaces, and the head position uses the function namespace, the other positions use the variable namespace. 17:55:29 funcall allows something in the variable namespace to be used as a function 17:55:36 Fare: so functions are or are not firstclass in common lisp? 17:55:45 they are 17:55:57 it's just that they usually live in a different namespace 17:56:02 then why do people say they are not? (the same people who say Ruby's lambdas are not first class) 17:56:15 Fare: I'm trying (and failing) to find an explicit licence to extend standardized operators with &optional and/or &key. tcr said "clhs 1.6" but what I see there is extremely implicit 17:56:16 banisterfiend, functions are definitely first-class in common lisp 17:56:22 banisterfield, what does 'first class' mean? 17:56:24 though there's nothing stopping you doing (let ((a (lambda () t))) ...) 17:56:47 slyrus: is your site having problems? 17:56:58 Xof: I'd look for issue write up on the matter. It definitively came to table during standardization 17:57:02 lispm: good question 17:57:04 Fare: did you see my question about what you wanted to do with TREES? 17:57:08 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:57:19 froydnj, yes, I wanted pure avl trees. 17:57:30 froydnj, and I admit I like the solution I came up with. 17:57:32 banisterfield: if you don't know it, then yes or no will make no diffference for you 17:57:36 Xof: I'd also look for what happens in case of argument mismatch 17:57:39 btw, is there an official git repo for TREES ? 17:57:40 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-217-75.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:42 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:48 so is it just anonymous functions that need to be invoked with (funcall ..) or do orindary functions need that too? 17:58:04 All functions, assuming you have a reference to them in a variable. 17:58:05 Xof: And there's at least one precedent in SBCL already 17:58:08 Fare: and you decided that doing functional trees wouldn't fit well enough into the existing framework 17:58:09 Xof: lack of such license never made us fix apropos / apropos-list 17:58:18 banisterfiend: obviously you can call FOO like this (FOO ...) 17:58:20 banisterfiend, no, you can funcall any function. (foo a b c) is the same as (funcall #'foo a b c) 17:58:25 (which is fine, just trying to get to understanding here) 17:58:25 bah jsnell 17:58:31 lispm: because it's used as a term of abuse aggressive pythonistas throw at commonlisp and ruby 17:58:33 fair point 17:58:43 Fare: when I can get it uploaded to github, yes 17:58:54 you can CALL all functions with FUNCALL, given that you pass them as value 17:59:08 froydnj, it could be done in the framework, with enough rewriting. 17:59:10 banisterfiend: you can, if you really want to, make a function with lambda and then put it into the function namespace 17:59:20 I suppose the other question is "do the pfdtests check?", because if they don't at all there's a fair chance that Paul thinks there's a licence 17:59:28 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:59:42 (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda ...)) 17:59:44 lispm: banisterfiend: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-class_function 17:59:44 froydnj, but since it would require re-writing a good chunk, I figured I might as well do it my way and experiment with this (gf if args...) style. 17:59:49 which I think was a success. 17:59:52 (foo 1 2 3) 18:00:26 Xof: I'm pretty sure they do, and there were explicit ansi-test failures for apropos* 18:00:27 Anarch: according to that functions are first class in CL 18:00:45 holy crap... between scrollback and this one... it's been an interesting bunch of newb/trolls since i went to bed! 18:00:47 lispm: correct (and I agree with that defn) 18:00:58 Fare: (gf if args ...) ? 18:01:06 -!- etate [~cmalune@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 18:01:30 Fare: that's about what I figured the thought process was. 18:02:18 anyway, I won't play language lawyer, and I especially won't try to plead what the official position of sbcl is or should be, but I'll be pleased to submit a patch to make this random-state initialization fit with whatever Xof (as our most holy maintainer) decrees is the official policy. I also tend to personally agree with his current interpretation, and I regret I didn't realize it before I submitted that patch 3 months ago. 18:02:37 (generic-function interface arguments) 18:02:57 as in (insert nil 1 'one) 18:03:23 where is an instance of fmap: 18:03:47 lispm: according to that they're first class in Ruby too 18:04:02 it tells us how to interpret the arguments that follow. 18:04:22 what the internal structure of a map is, how you compare keys, etc. 18:04:44 banisterfield: could be, I'm not a Ruby expert 18:05:21 Fare: interesting 18:05:23 this allows for relatively efficient yet easily parameterized data-structures. 18:05:27 banisterfiend: Yes, whereas Ruby blocks are not; but Ruby Proc instances are, and it's trivial to make a Proc from a block. I'm not a Ruby expert either. 18:05:28 carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.119] has joined #lisp 18:05:35 want a different key comparison algorithm? easy. 18:06:02 want an algorithm that is generic wrt data-structure interface? easy. 18:06:09 want to compose data-structures? easy. 18:06:28 that's how I build pure-hash-table on top of nkfm and alist. 18:06:32 banisterfiend: do you know what the words 'first-class' mean in the context of computer programming languages? 18:06:33 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:43 for each hash-value, have a bucket which is an alist (hopefully of length 1) 18:06:53 drewc: he just got a pointer to the wikipedia page 18:07:11 sierinjs [~root@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has joined #lisp 18:08:11 lispm: so he did 18:08:23 *drewc* didn't scroll back down enough :) 18:08:40 the other day, a friend said that Java was easier for programming-in-the-large thanks to interfaces. 18:08:52 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:09:00 I also wanted to demonstrate that CL can do interfaces very nicely. 18:09:13 In cl-irc you can retrieve messages with privmsg hook, and it gives some # thing as the one and only argument. What can I do with it? 18:09:18 *Xach* is holding out for EvinsArc 18:09:37 clhs 3.5.1.3 18:09:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_eac.htm 18:09:38 EvinsArc? 18:09:40 Xach, what is it? Mikel Evins's new Lisp? 18:10:39 Bard is it 18:10:43 I thought that Mikel tries to revive Dylan in modern clothings 18:10:57 which would be nicer that Arc++ 18:11:00 Xach: Categories are cool :) 18:11:08 gigamonkey pasted "some use of cl-irc message object" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95055 18:11:21 anyway, I just wanted to invite you all to try this (gf if args...) programming style, and maybe even use the data-structures in fare-utils 18:11:25 sierinjs: that paste is for you ^ 18:11:30 (yes, fare-utils is a big mess, sorry) 18:11:35 Xach: it's much closer to EvinsJure than EvinsArc imo :{ 18:12:02 drewc: I mean Arc more in the "apparently of great promise to many but not yet released" sense 18:12:08 not in the "flash in the pan joke" sense 18:12:24 Xach: makes sense to me 18:12:27 gigamonkey: Thanks. 18:12:36 appending 'Arc' to someone's dream Lisp is not nice 18:12:42 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:12:51 Fare: why not use contextl? 18:12:52 first-class interfaces as a way to combine CLOS goodness, ML-style data-structure functors, etc. 18:13:02 how would contextl help??? 18:13:07 -!- sierinjs [~root@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has left #lisp 18:13:08 Fare: (gf args ....) 18:13:12 sierinjs [~root@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has joined #lisp 18:13:18 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:27 Fare: i use contextl to replace typeclasses in my monads implementation 18:13:35 drewc: interesting. 18:13:54 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 18:13:55 Fare: it's interfaces/protocls that are dynamically scoped... if you will. 18:13:58 <_deepfire> Fare, I've had a thought about exploding the *-utils packages everyone of us seems to have, into one-feature-per-package packages. 18:14:11 Fare: contextl just hides the argument for you 18:14:26 adu_ [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:29 _deepfire, I thought of it, but at this point packaging and downloading is labor-intensive. 18:14:31 <_deepfire> Fare, as in -- the blobs we have are doubtless controversial, whereas the individual pieces have a lot more chance to stand scrutiny. 18:14:36 <_deepfire> Fare, exactly 18:14:50 <_deepfire> Fare, once the packaging pain gets down we might have that luxury 18:15:07 _deepfire, so I'll do it after asdf 2.0 is out and used by clbuild and friends, at which point downloading might be slightly less labor intensive. 18:15:10 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:19 *Xach* was just reading http://www.flownet.com/ron/lisp/rg-utils.lisp today, too 18:15:56 lispm: "dream lisp" is an apt description 18:16:01 fare-utils is also desperately under-documented. There are good and bad bits, but it's not obvious which are which. 18:16:03 I do that when I have my goggles on 18:16:56 <_deepfire> Fare, I'm pretty sure the same goes for all of ours individual *tilities, *-tools, *-utils packages. 18:17:06 lisppaste: url? 18:17:06 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:17:32 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:17:33 speaking of arc, rg-utils uses the arc trick of calling the openssl program for various cryptographic functions 18:17:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:17:59 is that better than ironclad? 18:18:00 Fare: need help with docs? 18:18:22 adu: sure. If you can help me produce docs for fare-utils, that'd be great :) 18:18:29 Fare: there is possibly some definition of "better" that would make that better. 18:18:34 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:48 Fare: it's not what i would usually consider "better", though. rg doesn't use asdf or packages. 18:19:10 sbahra [~sbahra@128.164.17.53] has joined #lisp 18:19:24 does he use lexicons? 18:19:31 drewc pasted "contextl-as-typeclass monads" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95057 18:19:32 not in rg-utils, but maybe elsewhere. 18:19:50 Fare: check out that paste 18:21:00 drewc: looks nice. What does adjoin-layer do? 18:21:11 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:21:38 I don't know how much attention froydnj has paid to the kind of thing that gets security researchers excited in crypto primitive implementations -- things like timing attacks and the like 18:21:40 Fare: adjoin-layer is the functional version of (with-active-layer ...) essentially. 18:21:50 openssl has probably had more attention in that direction 18:22:25 Fare: well, it creates a layer context by joining a layer with an existing layer context 18:22:26 drewc: how do you do monad transformers? 18:22:47 and distinguish the order they are applied 18:23:34 Fare: layers are still first class objects..... 18:24:00 -!- silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has quit [Quit: silenius] 18:24:03 drewc: if you have a published package for it (even better, documented), I'm curious to read it... 18:24:22 you pass the them as parameters, and you wrap the proper calls with the appropriate with-active-monad really 18:24:24 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:24:35 Xof: I have paid minimal attention to it. there are probably timing attacks waiting for some eager undergraduate in Ironclad 18:24:35 but i'm working on a form of monadic inheritence instead 18:24:57 Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:20 problem with inheritance, it's not very clearly ordered (though with :around methods and proper superclass ordering, you could do it, I'm sure) 18:25:31 Fare: not published or documented yet... i have not had a need for monads other than continuations, and i don't use this there. :) 18:25:36 TR2N [email@89-180-206-198.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 18:26:14 drewc: do you use the equivalent of the ptc package? 18:26:28 minion: what does ptc stand for? 18:26:29 Prelabel Talc Convalescent 18:26:38 nope, don't use one of those :) 18:26:48 Fare: what is ptc? 18:26:52 proper tail calls. http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/frideau/ptc.git 18:27:22 can be good when using continuations, lest you use a trampoline. 18:27:23 oh. 18:27:32 no, there's no need. 18:27:42 CPS is nicer than trampolines, often. 18:27:49 i don't do cps either! 18:27:56 monads man! :) 18:28:17 well, the CPS monad is... CPS 18:28:20 and my stacks never get bg enough to care 18:28:43 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44a7fb.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:28:47 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 18:28:47 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:49 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:29:01 Fare: that's arguable IMO. CPS is usually defined to involve passing an extra parameter to a function, the continuation. 18:29:14 the CPS monad had functions return monadic values 18:29:33 it's arguable, but i consider them different approaches. 18:30:07 mega1 [~quassel@4d6f492c.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:30:37 I'm looking for "practice sets". Basically going through Practical Common Lisp, and the last examples are a bit deeper than I want to get with my level of familiarity. 18:30:51 *drewc* notes it's called the Cont monad, not the CPS monad, and claims that as evidence to back him up :P 18:31:04 minion: tell Lithos about gentle 18:31:05 Lithos: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 18:31:15 thanks 18:31:20 Lithos: gentle has exercises 18:31:36 Lithos: i highly recommend the boxes and arrows with a pencil and paper 18:32:05 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:32:24 I can read everything up the the file portibility library. But I couldn't do it without having my "hand held" 18:32:29 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@128.164.17.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:32:51 Lithos: Gentle should be perfect for you then... it's a little more willing to hand hold :) 18:32:55 if it doesn't expand to CPS, how do you capture continuations? 18:33:12 <_deepfire> Fare, what would you consider good reading to understand monads? 18:33:35 Fare: all your functions return a monadic value.... in the case of continuations, the monadic value is a lambda which itself accepts the continuation 18:33:44 <_deepfire> I've tried the crash monad tutorial, but there was too much cat theory there. 18:33:50 _deepfire, dunno. Maybe some of Wadler's papers, or some recent Haskell library. 18:33:51 Well PCL is hand holding enough it just jumps up/down too much in the last chapters. 18:34:08 Fare: so you can choose which part of your function will take part in the continuation.. something you cannot do with CPS 18:34:48 drewc: you mean that by proper lifting, you select which parts of the code get CPSed and which do not... but those that do, do. 18:35:03 Fare: no, no need for lifting : 18:35:10 (defun foo (x) 18:35:12 errr 18:35:17 damn you RET! 18:35:35 don't diss RET. he's my friend. When he leaves, I'm very very sorry. 18:35:49 <_deepfire> drewc, that's why we use lisppaste :-) 18:35:58 (defun foo (x) (print "this code is not captured") (lambda (k) (print "this code is captured"))) 18:36:29 Fare: in CPS, FOO would be (defun foo (k x) ....) 18:37:05 drewc, it's a matter of un/currying, not of CPS vs no-CPS. 18:37:13 one could argue that, since the continuation is still there and is passed into the procedure, that it's still CPS 18:38:04 it's still CPS at heart, and you still better have your tail continuation invocations be proper tail-calls. 18:38:08 Fare: if you say so... i contend that Monadic style and Continuation Passing Style are different things 18:38:18 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:38:20 oh yes they are! 18:38:33 but the CPS monad expands to CPS. 18:38:36 Fare: why? my stack is rarely bigger than 5 functions, why would i need TCO? 18:38:41 (other monads expand to other things) 18:38:58 what is a CPS monad? I know a Cont monad ;) 18:38:58 -!- Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:39:37 most lisp compilers hide a continuation in a transformation some place... is this code written in CPS? : (defun foo (x) x) ? 18:39:46 (usually monads expand to some kind of FOO-passing style, though, need not be continuation) 18:40:02 how about this code : (defun foo (x) (return x)) 18:40:07 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:40:14 no, it's written not in CPS since the continuation is not explicitly passed 18:40:42 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:41:02 Fare: the latter was a trick question... i have shadowed return :) 18:41:24 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:50 drewc: I hate your guts. 18:42:01 (that's why you can be safe that I won't have them for dinner) 18:42:09 Fare: the continuation monad makes the continuation implicit, and creative use of block and catch allow you to hide the calling of the continuation ... 18:42:13 (also because you live thousands of miles apart) 18:42:19 Fare: so if the continuation is implicit, is it still CPS? 18:42:29 i contend the answer is no. 18:42:40 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-185-162.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:42:41 I'd say the answer is no, because the monad hides it from you. 18:42:57 :D 18:43:02 so your STYLE is not CPS, even though underneath the monad may expand it to CPS. 18:43:12 exactly 18:43:32 that's what makes monads great. 18:43:38 but you still need PTC. 18:43:41 indeed 18:43:50 yeah, and my compiler offers it! :) 18:44:03 which do you use, and what settings do you use? 18:44:13 I'm collecting ptc-compatible settings. 18:44:19 in the ptc package. 18:44:40 sbcl, and i deliver under (optimize (space 3)) 18:45:09 dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 18:45:10 what matters is to not have (debug 3), and/or to use the special tricks in ptc. 18:45:12 (the monad code can also use a trampoline) 18:45:13 *drewc* does not use TCO when developing, as he enjoys stack traces 18:45:24 yeah, the monad could easily use a trampoline 18:45:58 easily, I dunno. You might have to shadow even more stuff. 18:46:01 -!- Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:46:41 well, for the Cont monad it's 'easy' anyway.... 18:47:09 or maybe not so much actually... 18:48:07 milanj [~milan@93.87.180.187] has joined #lisp 18:48:17 Fare: no need to shadow anything. If you can capture the continuation, you can also return it. 18:49:38 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:50:07 pkhuong, sure, but if you're going to want to keep writing all your usual operators in direct style while their using the monad underneath, you'll shadow them all. 18:50:26 (defpackage foo (:use :monadic-cl) ...) 18:51:13 that doesn't depend any more on proper tail calls than the original code though. That's not the case with a straight CPS monad. 18:52:04 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 18:52:38 Hi. When I 'use' a lisp library (via ASDF, if it's relevant) am I linking against the library statically or dynamically? 18:53:01 smanek: the question doesn't really make sense. 18:53:12 Sorry, my lawyer is asking me. 18:53:20 smanek: static .. no gpl 18:53:27 no lgpl either! 18:53:31 (defun monadic-cl:append (&rest lists) (apply *lift* #'append lists)) ??? 18:53:48 drewc: so, I can just tell him statically? 18:53:56 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:54:00 smanek: you (or your lawyer) may need to look at the llgpl. 18:54:11 smanek: you can tell him whatever you want. But it's probably wrong. 18:54:12 smanek: yes, that's what the FSF would contend 18:54:43 smanek: if you want a legal opinion, that's it... a technical opinion is cause for debate, otoh :) 18:54:46 sbahra [~sbahra@128.164.17.53] has joined #lisp 18:54:50 oh... wait 18:54:54 smanek, if you're running ASDF at run-time, dynamically. If you're dumping an image, statically. 18:54:55 which lisp? 18:54:58 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@128.164.17.53] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:04 Thanks. Due diligence is a bitch. 18:55:13 Fare: I'm doing it at runtime 18:55:16 drewc: SBCL 18:55:22 smanek: then clearly, dynamically. 18:55:24 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-25-16.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:55:26 Fare: arguable 18:55:32 drewc: no arguing. 18:55:37 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-86-182.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:56:02 Fare: i came across a female common lisp programmer the other day, she was 24, brunette, exquisite with a genuine femininity and sincerity that was disarming 18:56:29 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 18:56:42 banisterfiend, and her phone number is? 18:56:42 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-25-114.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:56:46 djanatyn [~djanatyn@c-76-27-121-193.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:48 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:57:03 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:57:09 banisterfiend: My fiancée is a female CL programmer  but shes 27. 18:57:16 Fare: i didn't get it :/ 18:57:20 sellout: 27 is a great age too 18:58:28 (the programming CL part is also great :P) 18:59:21 -!- urnthr [~James@c-98-226-156-13.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:59:27 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:59:31 astalla [~astalla@93-36-228-255.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:59:48 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:59 Blkt [~user@host-78-13-247-158.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:00:02 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:02:17 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 19:02:31 konr [~user@187.89.142.35] has joined #lisp 19:02:36 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:03:24 probably she is 'first class' 19:03:44 lol 19:08:56 *smanek* groans 19:10:31 nnngh 19:12:24 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:14 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:13:45 smanek: any luck snagging hackers? 19:14:30 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-185-162.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:14:55 Xach: A few very promising leads - hopefully things should be finalized by next week. I think the fact that I need people local in NYC makes things more difficult 19:17:05 smanek: You're with Postabon? Cool :) 19:17:32 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:17:34 sellout: Aren't you with ITA? Much cooler ;-) 19:18:00 *Xach* must get some Wigflip business cards printed up 19:18:16 smanek: No, I'm at Clozure  but worked at ITA for 1.5 years or so. 19:18:34 smanek: i thought about applying for your position, then i realized i don't live in nyc... still, i think it's one of the first lisp job adds that match my experience almost exactly :) 19:18:40 ads* 19:20:10 smanek: how was your response BTW... is there any truth to the 'lisp developers are impossible to find' excuse? In my experience i've had no problem locating contractors, but i've never tried to find local employees. 19:20:37 drewc: Sorry about that :-( In steady state we'll probably be ok with people working remotely - but we're iterating/brainstorming a lot now. And, in my experience, that's easy to do locally 19:21:01 drewc: not particularly hard. I think it's just hard to find good programmer, period. 19:21:43 The shop I work at is strictly PHP, and there's still several other people with lisp experience here. 19:21:44 Frankly, I'd be happy to hire someone with Ruby/Python/Haskell/OCaml/etc experience into the front end role too (and train them in Lisp, so they could migrate to back end later if they want) 19:21:48 smanek: well, if you ever need some extra help, i've got a team of fairly competent lisp web developers at my disposal, and if you contract through tech.coop, we're pretty cheap :) 19:21:54 one of them has LiSP on his desk, another has a copy of AIMA 19:22:08 sykopomp: reading books does not a lisper make. 19:22:27 drewc: the one with LiSP used to do AI. He was doing Lisp and its predecessors for a while. 19:22:27 i have a few modula-2 texts on my bookshelf :P 19:22:41 drewc: Thanks! I may end up taking you up on that ;-) Are you guys located in Canada? 19:23:06 smanek: i am... team members are worldwide. 19:23:10 drewc: plus, even if they're not lispers per se, I think it gives a reasonable chance that they would be able to _learn_ CL in a work environment. 19:23:38 FWIW - Lispworks patched a Win32 cornercase (disconnect) for me that seems to have eradicated the leak. 19:24:05 drewc: Well thanks! I'll be sure to get in touch, if there's stuff that can be easily done out-of-house 19:24:08 Only heavy testing will confirm leaklessness but if there is still one it's 100x lower 19:24:08 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 19:24:15 Modius: the the 'ask you vendor' advice i repeated ad nauseum was actually the right advice? imagine that :P 19:24:40 drewc: It was the right advice. Although, I only came in for general advice on nobrainer stupid leaks 19:24:41 what ever happend to "It's never the compiler." 19:24:42 smanek: drewc@tech.coop 19:24:55 Fade: it was the runtime. 19:24:56 Fade: threads 19:25:12 or what pkhuong said 19:25:13 Win32 error reporting in certain disconnect cases the load tester was stimulating 19:25:14 :) 19:25:24 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:25:50 Modius: one thing we've learned here in #lisp is that people come in asking for all sorts of things... and it rarely relates to their actual problem. 19:26:27 dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 19:26:31 drewc: Sure. And I assumed it was socket-level and had deferred to the vendor. But I was concerned about "crying wolf" if there's something lisp-level I could mess up. I kept mentioning symbol-interning, as I did that once 3 years ago. 19:27:01 Modius: and it was a red herring as i insisted it was 19:27:14 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Client Quit] 19:27:15 Broadly, seeing if there was a "here's a checklist" 19:27:16 Modius: no need to argue, the problem has been solved! :) 19:27:26 drewc: I'm worried about crying wolf too many times to them. 19:28:11 Modius: you paid for the privilege... crying wolf in hear when you've paid someone else to hear it is somewhat disrespectful of our time imo. 19:28:17 in here* 19:28:30 *drewc* was putting off his first cup of coffee 19:28:35 drewc: I say again, I was never after a diagnosis for my problem, just a "here's a checklist" kind of thing 19:29:07 In C++ such a checklist would be: "suspect every line of code" - I worked in a place though where leaks were controlled in terms of how long a server could run without grenading (didn't get rid of C++ leaks, just factored them in) 19:29:32 Modius: a checklist you didn't need as it didn't at all relate to the problem, which LW support could easily have told you. 19:30:09 Modius: lisp does not leak memory like C++... it has a GC. 19:30:14 i think if I had a paid LW seat, I'd call them up just to chat. 19:30:16 drewc: Might help going forward - we tested a stripped hunchentoot server, not *my* server 19:30:26 drewc: GC doesn't save you from accidentally-retained references. 19:30:27 or * 19:30:41 *, **, and *** -- Enemies of the Collector. 19:30:44 :D 19:30:48 sykopomp: no, it doesn't... but it's pretty obvious which forms keep references around. 19:30:55 they are specified to do so 19:31:23 drewc: You're right though. More obvious than something you're clearly not using at all. 19:31:34 Ron Garret's git integration code uses his 'utils' 19:31:36 sigh 19:31:50 sykopomp: Read-from-string got me in the past (predated my understanding of symbols-packages) 19:32:04 lispm: Why write 'em if you're not going to use 'em? 19:32:05 sykopomp: * ** and *** are all not bound in every single lisp app i've ever delivered... so they don't hold nothing! :) 19:32:19 lispm: port it to Alexandria :) 19:32:36 I would hope for plain CL 19:32:39 sellout: rg-utils would first need ported to Common Lisp :P 19:32:54 drewc: sorry, *, **, and *** were more tongue-in-cheek references to wondering why the hell the GC wasn't collecting a large blob of garbage during naive repl-testing. 19:32:59 lispm: here is my cl port of rg-utils : "" 19:33:04 of course, nothing that matters in a delivered app :) 19:33:18 sykopomp: yeah, that's a common one. 19:34:20 minion: memo for nyef: same patch in x86-64-assem.S:197 for darwin; is $(N_FIXNUM_TAG_BITS) fine on other platforms too? 19:34:20 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 19:34:42 I had almost posted a link to his code on Reddit 19:35:04 so, do any of you know a portable way to intercept os signals (I need to catch sigwinch)? 19:35:19 oconnore_: define portable :) 19:35:27 more than just sbcl 19:35:34 maybe? 19:35:34 oconnore_: i don't think you'll find a portable way, only ported ways. 19:35:49 *Xach* hasn't heard of trivial-unix-signals yet 19:35:57 oconnore_: by that definition of portable, yes. GCC can do it 19:36:11 oconnore_: given that OS signals aren't portable... 19:36:18 oconnore_: ksh93 is pretty good at it too 19:36:22 let's get split-sequence in alexandria before we start porting bob's utilities. 19:36:28 Hey smanek ... Where is your office in NYC? 19:36:43 oconnore_: python, ruby, perl ... all not sbcl, all can handle signals :P 19:37:06 haha, true. 19:37:18 but trivial-unix-signals doesn't exist... 19:37:30 *Xach* handles sigwinch, but only in sbcl 19:37:42 pkhuong: what is this "windows" you speak of? 19:37:45 :P 19:38:15 *lispm* wonders what 'general cleanup' means in Ron's revision history for his utils 19:38:31 pkhuong: i don't think anyone mentioned windows..... there are other os's besides windows and unix you know... ;) 19:38:34 err 19:38:36 oconnore_: ^ 19:38:41 Xach: that works. I can just tell everyone else to hit Control-R for a "fake" sigwinch. 19:38:42 *drewc* is still making coffee 19:38:47 reb: 9th and broadway 19:39:35 oconnore_: what other implementations are those everyone elses using? 19:39:36 drewc: True, but how many people would download a VMS port of my program? 19:39:37 Have you attended a LispNYC meeting and put out feelers for your open positions? 19:40:00 oconnore_: then ask the actual question you want an answer to ;) 19:40:07 There are a fairly large number of Lisp folks in NYC. 19:40:15 reb: yep, I attended my first one last week. Got a few leads that way - hopefully one of them will pan out 19:40:26 reb: Yep, I've been pretty lucky. 19:40:35 Xach: I guess I don't quite understand your question. People use all sorts of common lisp implementations... 19:40:55 oconnore_: Yes, but who is going to use your program? 19:41:18 oconnore_: portability isn't usually an end. 19:41:59 I'm a spotty LispNYC attendee, but would like to know more about your web site building experience. 19:42:52 Xach: pkhuong: Hopefully everyone? I'm building it for my own use, and by that definition I would like sbcl and clozure compatability. However, if I can make it available for other lisp users with minimal effort, then that would be a better plan. 19:43:23 from 'everyone' to 'other lisp users' in one paragraph 19:43:47 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:43:52 go get yer coffee, drewc. ;) 19:43:55 Well, in the realm of this irc channel, those two things are similar. 19:44:04 reb: Why don't you email me off-channel if you have deep questions. Basically, I'm just using Hunchentoot + HTML-template. My email is smanek@postabon.com 19:44:28 oconnore_: you can easily solve the portability problem by making your program so awesome people will switch to SBCL just to run it :) 19:44:31 I'll send you an email .... 19:44:42 oconnore_: and what you really mean is 'unix using common lisp developers' ? 19:45:18 "unix using common lisp developers other than drewc", while we're being precise ;) 19:45:23 oconnore_: I'd worry about getting it working first. Having to port software to another implementation is a nice problem. FWIW, I don't think all (most?) CL implementations expose signal handling. I supppose that, in the worst case, working via C might be good enough. 19:45:25 :D 19:46:06 ideally you'd hide that logic all away with an update-screen-for-redefined-size protocol... 19:46:14 sellout: i think 'portable to 99% of unix using CL developers' just means 'use sbcl' 19:46:21 holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:47 drewc: I think clozure cl has more than 1% of that market. :) 19:46:54 drewc: If I could port it to windows I would, but I don't think Microsoft releases a terminfo file, which is basically what the program is centered on. 19:47:01 Fade: the total can be more than 100 ;) 19:47:09 Fade: how many lisps do you have installed on your unix box? 19:47:18 right right 19:47:23 oconnore_: cygwin 19:47:36 are Common Lisp developers the 'users' ? 19:48:04 lispm: apparently... otherwise why would the implementation matter? 19:48:24 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:48:44 smanek: any reason you chose a free implementation rather than a commercial one, other than the fact it's free (gratis)? 19:48:47 it could be that the implementation is easy to install or running nicely or so 19:49:00 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:27 With Cygwin, maybe it will work on windows. Maybe even drewc will use it on an obscure lisp once he gets his coffee? :) 19:49:41 if it is portable I could use it on my Lisp Machine, but it also does not have a 'terminfo' file 19:49:53 oconnore_: i have my copy of genera just waiting for your unix signal handling code! 19:50:01 anyways, thank you all for your help... I think. 19:50:44 drewc: Excellent! 19:50:46 felideon: I looked at Allegro at first, and their website suggested they wanted to charge me per visitor to my website (which is crazy for a free website). I later found out that they'd be willing to license under different terms, but by then it was too late to switch. 19:51:24 smanek: what implementaton did you deliver with... sbcl? 19:51:48 drewc: Yep, SBCL. I had some prior experience with it, so decided to go with what I knew 19:51:58 smanek: any GC issues yet? 19:52:27 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:52:49 drewc: Nope - although I tend to restart the lisp process every 2-3 days when I push new code. If there are any memory leaks, they are slow enough they haven't kicked in yet. 19:53:30 smanek: yeah, that will work :) 19:54:00 i got bit by the conserative GC once... or i think that's what it was. 19:54:36 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-206-198.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:56:05 smanek: feel free to drop me an email if you want to discuss production web apps in general.... i've done about 7-10 from scratch in CL over the years and learned a wee bit along the way. I'd be happy to share some info :) 19:57:05 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:57:19 drewc: That I will absolutely do this evening (I'm about to get pulled into meetings for the rest of today). I'm about to get pulled into boring meetings for the rest of the day ... 19:57:54 yay meetings! "until we find out why so little code is getting written, we will continue to have these meetings!" 19:58:22 smanek, you're from Postabon? 19:59:29 TR2N` [email@89-180-162-252.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 19:59:29 Adlai: yep, I'm the co-founder :-D 19:59:30 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:00:39 smanek, I noticed the other day that you're expanding your Lisp operations; good to see that things are going well! 20:01:50 Adlai: Thanks! 20:03:09 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:14 smanek: just make sure you do what ITA does--buy all your new Lispers a copy of PCL. ;-) 20:03:37 or the new PCL++ 20:03:54 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 20:03:57 gigamonkey: I was planning on it. maybe a copy of 'coders at work' too ;-) 20:03:59 PCL++? 20:04:11 *gigamonkey* wonders what lispm is talking about too. 20:04:19 not? ;-) 20:04:30 new edition? 20:04:43 Sadly Apress is too annoying to deal with to do a 2nd ed. 20:04:51 the first version is already great 20:05:02 But I'm thinking about ways to publish some more stuff about Lisp (and other things). Stay tuned. 20:05:05 if we could get gigamonkey to write a sequel... 20:05:35 gigamonkey: does Apress own the rights to the book? 20:05:54 lithper2_: well, they own the publication rights until they let it go out of print. 20:06:09 gigamonkey: FYI, the pdf download on apress.com hasn't been working for me. just goes to a blank page, no download. 20:06:25 I think that has been removed quite some time ago 20:06:47 lispm: it worked for me in the past 12 months, but recent attempts have failed. 20:06:48 Xach: Agin, sadly, I've exceeded my lifetime quota of emails to Apress urging them to fix broken stuff. 20:06:55 gigamonkey: ok 20:07:10 dnolen_ [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 20:07:17 maybe if irate readers of their books emailed them instead it would work better 20:07:40 Plus I was never a big fan of that free PDF which they did without mentioning it to me, after they made me take a cut in royalties to leave the website up. Grumble grumble. 20:08:04 *gigamonkey* better go eat lunch before he launches into an all-out and off topic rant about Apress. 20:08:19 I think the website is good enough, the PDF was probably damaging the sales 20:08:44 Xach, it was broken for me when I tried a few months ago 20:08:48 would it take a lot of effort to create a PDF of the entire book? i'd image there's software that does everything for you. 20:09:06 lithper2_: yea but not as well formatted as an actual book 20:09:07 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:09:19 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:39 wow, the amazon.com product description is all screwed up too. :) 20:09:51 lispm: yes, that was sort of my feeling. On the other hand, for PCL, I care more about having people read it than the extra buck or so I get from peope actually buying it. Not that you shouldn't buy it if you feel so inclined. 20:10:05 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:10:05 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 20:10:09 raw html in the webpage FTW! 20:11:08 gigamonkey, I would think that it gets more important to get money from publishing not only over book selling 20:11:12 printed books 20:11:30 I guess in many cases people will or aren't buying the printed versions 20:11:35 yea, where's the kindle edition, there must be at least 2 people who want to read it on their kindle! :) 20:11:49 I sort of like the 1-star review from the guy who gave up on PCL and went back to Winston & Horn. 20:12:07 gigamonkey: *boggle* 20:12:19 not necessarily the kindle, but there are lots of devices who can display PDF 20:12:24 and reflow pdf 20:12:30 "I don't believe that this book will play essential role in reviving Lisp. I gave up, and converted to K&R of Lisp, namely Winston and Horn." 20:13:06 *felideon* had never heard of the Winston and Horn book 20:13:08 W&H, is nice, but different 20:13:24 the 3rd edition is highly recommended 20:13:27 why is it usually never mentioned? 20:13:29 Yes. I think it was actually my first Lisp book, back when I was in high school and my dad was trying to teach me. 20:13:39 but nowadays I would recommend PCL 20:13:51 W&H is nice if you'd like to learn LISP ;) 20:13:57 felidion: it is a bit old 20:13:59 It's sort of the prototypical, let's bludgeon people with cons cells and atoms for a good long while Lisp book. 20:14:02 PCL is for Lisp :P 20:14:02 W&H 3rd Edition is more modern. 20:14:14 Or at least that's how I remember it. 20:14:14 uses CLOS, even. 20:14:16 3rd edition also has nice code 20:14:22 -!- brah- [brah@gateway/shell/xzibition.com/x-yafedkhnjrantmnv] has quit [Quit: changing servers] 20:14:26 i don't think i've seen the 3rd edition 20:14:28 *Xach* sold his W&H 3rd Edition a year or two ago 20:14:29 but with some AI theme 20:14:46 Xach: worth reading but not worth having? 20:14:47 drewc: check it out, at least I like it 20:14:59 I think it is worth having, too 20:15:29 lispm: i certainly will, i have some lisp books that are neither worth having nor reading... so i can make room. 20:15:40 drewc: i had a fit of "sell the books i don't intend to read again" that i sometimes regret 20:15:41 hehe 20:15:59 i wish i'd kept Anatomy of Lisp, now. 20:16:00 'on lisp' 20:16:17 :D 20:16:33 drewc: why is it you don't like On Lisp? It's on my list but I'm thinking of axing it 20:16:34 I never use that 20:16:58 I have reread Lisp, 3rd edition several times 20:17:07 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:25 I kind of liked the 'real world haskell' web site 20:17:36 where people could annotate paragraphs 20:18:13 felideon: It's worth reading On Lisp if, and only if, you don't quite get what macros can do. 20:18:30 felideon: besides that, Graham is capable of doing you more harm than good 20:18:56 graham creates legends 20:18:58 like conning you out of millions of dollars for a handful of CLISP scripts 20:19:26 drewc: interesting. is there any way to "get it" some other way? I think I understand them but I doubt I "get" them. 20:19:29 felideon: i see people coming in here all the time wondering how to propery recurse throught their 'lst' and make objects from their closures when the should be looping through lists and makeing instances :) 20:19:47 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:19:52 this is grahams doing... trying to make CL into scheme 20:19:58 and common lisp is by far the most interesting culture when it comes to programming languages. one shouldn't forget pg in that equation, an equation which itself is valuable in my books :) 20:20:30 guaqua: pg has done as much harm as good, and i for one am glad he's not a part of the common lisp community ;) 20:20:48 felideon, I think a nice lesson is to study macros in standard CL 20:21:08 drewc: has he ever been a part of it? 20:21:13 drewc: when it comes to pure code, probably more harm. when it comes to legend and fame, mysticity - more good 20:21:40 guaqua: disagree 20:21:54 it's got a nice range from very simple macros, like WHEN, to moderate ones that are basically just code templates (like DO), to much more sophisticated ones (like the CLOS macros) 20:21:55 although, off course, mysticity mostly isn't a good thing when it comes to programming. when it comes to practicing the craft 20:21:56 "mysticity"? 20:22:11 minion, what does PG stand for? 20:22:12 Postdiphtheritic Glauconiferous 20:22:14 cmm: mystic 20:22:16 guaqua: 'legend, fame and mysticity' => bullshit... i can agree that graham added a lot of bullshit 20:22:18 whatever 20:22:29 guaqua, "mysticism" 20:22:32 mysticality? 20:22:39 be it that :) 20:23:04 *Xach* is reminded of http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/990f5de07517629c 20:23:22 I think one can see the difference in code quality when comparing 'on lisp' to PAIP or AMOP 20:23:29 mystique 20:23:43 lispm: indeed... look at grahams queue vs norvigs, for example 20:23:56 housel: that's a better term 20:24:12 drewc: right 20:24:14 IIRC, grahams even ships with a bug. 20:24:57 guaqua: when i started with lisp i thought graham knew what he was talking about too... you get over it fast! 20:25:03 Xach: that's a good summary and it shows 20:25:16 drewc: true 20:25:54 Xach: PG's books are not really fun to read, ANSI CL was really dry and unfunnz 20:25:57 unfunny 20:26:01 drewc: this would need an essay or a discussion while having a pint, irc is too fast 20:26:21 Xach: Peter in that post is gigamonkey? 20:26:30 felideon: norvig 20:26:32 -!- kefka [~user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:35 Xach: ah, dur. 20:26:57 lispm: whereas CLTL2 is dry and funny? 20:27:06 for example 20:27:15 weird, also 20:27:15 guaqua: nah.. we can leave it at 'Paul Graham is a Wanker' and not miss much :) 20:27:32 cltl2 was a fun read 20:27:58 Xach: I hope 'Land of Lisp' is funny and cool 20:28:03 i couldn't be bothered to get through AnsiCL... On Lisp i read before i knew any better and thought it was good :P 20:28:06 we could. when i'll visit vancouver, bc, i'll find you and we'll have that talk ;) 20:28:25 guaqua: i'll buy the drinks! :) 20:28:26 lispm: It might be funny, but lets not stretch it and hope for cool. We're talking about programming here. 20:28:50 *tmh* wonders why geeks always want to be cool. 20:29:01 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:29:09 tmh, everybody wants to be cool, for their value of cool. 20:29:14 tmh: I want great code and great examples 20:29:20 thus the correct question is what does lispm count as a cool book 20:29:25 tmh: not just funny 20:29:29 ... which he just answered 20:30:36 stuff where one really wants to try out the code 20:30:42 even type it in ;-) 20:32:09 i think PCL is pretty damn cool. 20:33:00 I wish I had PCL when I learned Lisp ;-) 20:33:22 then again, maybe my experience as a touring rock and roll musician tainted me on what 'cool' is.... touring was supposed to be very cool, and was not all that cool... programming supposed to be uncool... but many things are very cool indeed.... 20:33:32 :P 20:33:35 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:33:48 My experience with /On Lisp/ - and it startled me - was that the code is /ugly/. Reading it is /painful/. And I /like/ anaphora. But I like generalized LOOP, and rather strongly dislike recursion-as-iteration. 20:33:56 I think it is cool when a book inspires me 20:34:04 The only thing that is cool is saving the planet and getting the chick, everything else is just nice. 20:34:08 when I want to take the code and ideas and play around 20:34:12 i think it's cool when i have a problem worth my time :) 20:34:35 when i'm solving a problem untrivial enough 20:34:37 when the code in a book is the nucleus of something bigger 20:35:47 like people took various parts of PAIP and reused it 20:36:18 like CL-FAD \o/ 20:36:46 i think the long drawn out examples in ANSI Common Lisp are not necessary. 20:36:48 I learned lisp using 'ANSI Common Lisp' then went on to study PCL, have looked through 'On Lisp', worked through Keene and have PAIP staring at me from the bookshelf. I have also scanned AMOP. My criticism of PG's books is that his style is a little antiquated, but there are still useful nuggets to be gained from his books. 20:37:06 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:37:39 on lisp is a good book, but if you write Lisp software one gets surprisingly little from it 20:37:47 my impression 20:37:56 gonzojive_ [~red@DNab4046b2.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:38:11 By far, PCL is what should be used to introduce CL to people. 20:38:19 I'm half way through 'on lisp' 20:38:19 lispm: that's a good way of putting it. 20:38:22 it's more to show other people 'macros' and other stuff 20:38:35 but the real world use is surprisngly low 20:39:01 lispm: right... it's a book about how to write scheme in CL directed towards perl and C programmers 20:39:14 something like that, yes 20:39:22 it's cool when this happens: http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/contest/visualizer.php?game_id=3770535 20:39:54 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:54 Adlai: win! 20:40:07 -!- bipt` [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:40:17 are there still only a couple cl entries? 20:40:21 Adlai: you started with aerique's starter pack? 20:40:27 same with scheme too me thinks 20:40:36 actually it's not cool, I'd rather see my bot crushed by a good player than squash yet another noob 20:40:38 *Xach* stumbled across an 11-year-old cll post from aerique today 20:40:59 felideon, I started with it, although I don't have any of the starter pack code left 20:41:05 Adlai: haha 20:41:07 bytecolor, there are about a dozen 20:41:49 *sykopomp* realized how 'aerique' is supposed to be pronounced only about two days ago. 20:42:03 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:42:07 eric? 20:42:10 yeah 20:42:12 just a guess ;) 20:42:33 *sykopomp* used to pronounce it "ayreekay" 20:42:37 ær-eek 20:42:41 not everything is english, but not everything is spanish either... 20:43:25 interesting ... the yanks see spanish, canucks see french :) 20:43:36 *felideon* was pronouncing it eh-REEK 20:43:53 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@DNab4046b2.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:55 gonzojive_ [~red@DNab4046b2.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:44:38 aerique isn't a french name? 20:45:10 I started reading a bit of 'let over lambda' last night, looks like a good book 20:45:38 bytecolor: it's crap 20:45:40 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:47 bytecolor: worse than crap imo 20:45:48 I lol when I read lol 20:45:54 heh 20:46:01 drewc: No, really, what do you think of it. ;-) 20:46:04 ? 20:46:07 hahaha, http://www.aerique.net/ .. third link in the nav menu :) 20:46:45 tmh: i know that Doug idles here, so i'm not going to subject him to that particular rant again. 20:46:50 drewc: ;D 20:47:09 Adlai: mind sharing the code? I wanted to give it a try but got kind of stuck (I need to write more Lisp code) so I think it might be a good read. 20:47:45 drewc: I didn't really want you to expand on it, I was just laughing at your bluntness. I think bluntness is under-appreciated. 20:47:49 felideon, I can send you a "starter pack" from my code 20:48:24 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 20:48:37 macros are like pushups. it makes no sense to do them, except when you really have to 20:48:44 tmh: my wife often asks me "couldn't you have sugar coated that just a little bit"... and i reply "don't ask me questions you don't want me to answer" :P 20:49:12 Adlai: sure. including the java stuff to test it out? I noticed he made an update which I haven't had a chance to try that involved running make.sh or something 20:49:14 guaqua: i don't get an endorphin high from macros.... 20:49:17 drewc: I tell people that honesty is the sincerest form of respect. 20:49:27 tmh: well said. 20:50:01 pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:50:20 macros are just one application of 'symbolic computing' 20:50:24 drewc: again, i'm trying to build on the idea of macros being an art form on their own :) 20:50:46 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:50:51 guaqua: more like an easy way to turn your code into crap. 20:51:02 oh well, i tried :) 20:51:45 vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:43 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-135-55.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:53:02 *gigamonkey* is doing pushups every hour on the hour today. But hasn't written a macro all day. 20:53:22 "macros : for when you are really really really sure there is no better way to do it" 20:53:46 felideon, ok, lemme pull it together 20:54:05 drewc: or when you're idiomatically 'forced' to do it (see with-*) 20:54:09 Adlai: but what I meant is that if it's too much trouble, just reading the lisp code was good enough for me :) 20:54:19 sykopomp: uhhhh 20:54:25 sykopomp: see CALL-WITH-* 20:54:26 the aphorism I used when learning was "macros: for when you're absolutely sure you need to control argument evaluation." 20:54:46 -!- Blkt [~user@host-78-13-247-158.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:59 it's not that much trouble, just a sec 20:55:10 sykopomp: i might export a with-*, but most code i write using it will use the CALL-WITH-* variation. 20:55:21 sykopomp: fear of lambda does not a macro make! 20:55:21 right, that's what I'm saying 20:55:42 CL users would expect with-* to just be a macro, and they might even prefer that. 20:55:50 vote time! 20:55:51 even if call-with-* is nicer (it is, imo) 20:56:12 call-with-* is nice for the same reason that call/cc is nicer than let/cc 20:56:23 i know of no cl-user that would prefer the macro over the function if the choice were exclusive. 20:56:35 drewc: that's not what I'm saying at all. 20:56:39 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:56:39 well you can trivially write the former using the latter 20:56:55 drewc: but if you see with-*, what would you expect that to be (in CL)? A macro, or a higher-order function? :) 20:57:25 sykopomp, that's why the higher-order function is called call-with-foo 20:57:28 sykopomp: WITH-* is obviously a macro... if it's not it's badly named 20:57:40 then what are we arguing about? :) 20:57:44 *Xach* thinks of WITH and AS from "ANSI Common Lisp" 20:57:55 I think define-* are obviously macros as well. 20:58:01 or def* 20:58:02 and DO-* 20:58:19 what would you call a functional version of a do-foo ? 20:58:28 maybe map-foo ? 20:58:28 map- 20:58:34 Adlai: LAMDO :) 20:58:45 LAMBDO* 20:58:52 *Adlai* goes with lispm on this one 20:59:03 doing- 20:59:09 (defun lambda-calrisian (...) ..) 20:59:12 lambdo* 20:59:16 bah, screw it. 20:59:21 Speaking of paging, I always forget to shut down my VirtualBox before an analysis to free the memory. 20:59:22 drewc: it's contagious. 20:59:35 sykopomp: coffee. 20:59:39 sykopomp: it helps 20:59:48 I don't partake :\ 21:00:16 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:00:36 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082F0BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:40 sykopomp: red bull? 21:00:50 ditto :P 21:00:55 sykopomp: crystal methamphetamine? 21:01:05 "if you wanna get down..." 21:01:06 I like the band? 21:01:53 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082E8CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:03:17 Blkt [~user@host-78-13-247-158.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:04:54 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:10 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:07:28 Suppose: we're in a deadline handler due to waiting in condition-wait; we call condition-wait in that deadline handler _again_ on the same mutex (recursive lock) and the same condition-variable. Another thread uses condition-broadcast. Should only be the "inner" wait be affected, or both "inner" and "outer" wait? 21:08:31 jmbr [~jmbr@197.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:08:48 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:10:38 *drewc* goes crosseyed 21:11:08 If 10% of the time is spent in GC, is that good, acceptable, bad or depends? 21:11:21 tcr: intuitively, only the inner. 21:11:48 I would say so, too 21:12:12 tcr: arguably both though... and arguably there should be a way to do that too. 21:12:31 How would you argue? 21:12:56 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 21:12:59 If you want the outer wait, defer the deadline (sort of continue restart) 21:13:12 -!- qed [code@powerprecision.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:14:44 tmh: Depends on absolute time I'd say, and whether the absolute general time is acceptable to your use case 21:14:45 tcr: do you have a simple use case i could look at? like i said, my intuition says the inner only, but i've found my intuition is often not the best of guides when it comes to concurrency. 21:15:18 tcr: unfortunatly, i'm having problems visualizing the way that goes agains't what i can intuit. 21:15:23 errr 21:15:40 i don't think that #\' should have been anywhere near there. 21:16:07 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 21:18:34 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 21:19:31 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:45 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:20:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-111-207.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:20:29 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 21:20:37 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.119] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 21:20:52 arnee [~arnee@a89-182-20-15.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 21:21:19 konr` [~user@189.0.30.57] has joined #lisp 21:22:50 -!- konr [~user@187.89.142.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:23:29 Actually I don't think I can implement the former 21:23:50 "inner" would be regularly waken up, but "outer" would get a spurious wakeup 21:24:18 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:25:52 nvoorhies_ [~nvoorhies@166.205.138.86] has joined #lisp 21:27:16 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:27:32 I've been writing a load of doc strings in a markdown compatible way. Is there any note-worthy documentation software which supports markdown, and html templates, in order to create external documentation? 21:28:51 jtza8: both tcr and i have hacks in various states of working-ness that DTRT, and there are few others on cliki. 21:29:48 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:29:49 What's on cliki? 21:29:58 drewc: So basically, I could go ahead and write my own too? :P 21:30:15 jtza8: You should probably try drewc's one 21:30:28 I'll move my stuff to it, too,... eventually 21:30:31 -!- nvoorhies_ [~nvoorhies@166.205.138.86] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:42 minion: Documentation Tool? 21:30:43 Documentation Tool: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/Documentation%20Tool 21:30:48 tcr^ 21:31:10 jtza8: yeah, you should help with mine 21:31:35 jtza8: the parser is extensible, so you can do it your way but not have to write the parser :) 21:32:06 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/#sec-6 <--- that's the scetch of the it 21:32:11 sketch 21:32:38 generates something like : http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/#sec-3.1.2 21:33:15 drewc: Hmm... ok, I'll have a look at that. I'll let you know what comes of it in the end :) 21:34:10 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:34:11 jtza8: it'd be cool if you tried the parser out anyway... it's made for doing markdown-like things 21:34:43 I think you should put the source code on a second page 21:35:41 You usually are not interested in it, and it just makes the page feel long 21:35:42 JayK [~user@dslb-094-223-163-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:01 but it's "literate programming"! :P 21:36:17 i wonder if i can hack the org-mode export to trivially do that. 21:36:17 tcr: I'm thinking more of the r-doc style. 21:36:46 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@DNab4046b2.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 21:36:50 r-doc? 21:37:30 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37:37 Yeah, ruby's r-doc (that's what it's called IIRC) 21:38:19 hi, somebody here who is familiar with how swank and slime interact or sbd. from lispbuilder? 21:38:28 jtza8: you see all those documentation packages on cliki? they are all documentation packages done in the style of some other languages documentation systems.... 21:38:29 jtza8: Mine looks like: http://common-lisp.net/project/sequence-iterators/ 21:38:38 jtza8: and you know what? nobody uses them :P 21:39:06 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:39:07 *drewc* needs a stylesheet like tcr's 21:39:17 jtza8: Source is http://common-lisp.net/project/sequence-iterators/darcs/sequence-iterators/sequence-iterators.lisp 21:39:47 *drewc* steals tcr's 21:39:53 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:39:58 it's Edi's 21:40:12 *drewc* steals Edi's 21:40:18 drewc: You also need a fill-paragraph 21:40:22 that's why i found it so familiar and comforting 21:40:29 *Xach* scrapes together http://xach.com/naggum/books.csv 21:40:36 i think Xach uses that stylesheet too? 21:40:51 *Xach* uses his own stylesheet for new projects like zs3 and buildapp 21:41:38 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:50 *drewc* steals xach's 21:41:54 drewc: Except their authors of-course :) 21:42:19 jtza8: heh, not even those in many cases :) 21:43:03 alama [~alama@vhe-540372.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:14 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:43:37 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:44:09 carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.119] has joined #lisp 21:50:00 *Xach* has screwed up that CSV somehow, deletes it 21:50:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:50:40 Xach: what's in that csv? 21:50:44 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has joined #lisp 21:50:56 <_deepfire> tcr, btw, why not check-sequence-bounds (instead of validate-sequence-bounds)? You'd blend into CL and get syntax highlighting for free.. 21:51:33 kwinz3 [kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 21:51:37 _deepfire: scroll down... 21:51:59 drewc: a copy of all isbns and titles from erik naggum's librarything catalog. 21:52:12 but i got desynched and the isbns and titles don't match. 21:52:23 Xach: neat :) 21:54:58 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:55:00 <_deepfire> Hmm, it's not clear what check-sequence-bounds does from documentation. 21:55:07 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:56:01 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:56:12 <_deepfire> Its relationship with V-S-B suggests that it takes the values and validates them -- but it's unclear why they have to be assignable. 21:56:53 <_deepfire> drewc, I'd actually /contrast/ it against what check-* stuff does in CL. 21:57:06 because that way you get type information for your function parameters 21:58:15 TR2N` [email@89.180.223.5] has joined #lisp 21:59:06 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-162-252.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:59:36 jockc [~jockc@dsl-206-251-71-75.dynamic.linkline.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:32 -!- konr` [~user@189.0.30.57] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:00:49 konr [~user@189.0.30.57] has joined #lisp 22:01:41 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:09 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.191] has joined #lisp 22:02:12 <_deepfire> tcr, hey, man, that's relatively cryptic -- I'm not attacking, just trying to clear it up. 22:02:49 <_deepfire> tcr, It's not immediately obvious, and neither it's obvious after a closer look -- you will get such questions in the future. 22:02:58 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 22:03:08 <_deepfire> (Or I'm just unusually retarded and you can discount me) 22:03:50 Sure I agree it could say so (no need to be defensive) 22:04:14 Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:29 I think the presentation does say so explicitly though 22:08:36 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: b] 22:08:54 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 22:09:12 I hope the choice does make sense to you know, though? 22:09:17 http://xach.com/naggum/books.html should be pretty accurate now (and books.csv too) 22:11:23 the Chief Search Officer of amazon will thank you! 22:14:02 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-227-178.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 22:15:14 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:15:43 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:17:21 -!- Blkt [~user@host-78-13-247-158.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18:50 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1177684015.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:20:48 brah- [brah@2607:f5a0:0:21::2] has joined #lisp 22:21:45 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@CPE00222d2f0ae0-CM00222d2f0adc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:21:56 -!- arnee [~arnee@a89-182-20-15.net-htp.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:21 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-228-255.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:23:30 arnee [~arnee@a89-182-20-15.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 22:23:47 ;; nanosleep() accepts time_t as the first argument, but on some 22:23:48 ;; platforms it is restricted to 100 million seconds. Maybe 22:23:48 ;; someone can actually have a reason to sleep for over 3 years? 22:24:01 Does anyone know what platforms that SBCL comment refers to? 22:24:11 tcr: open, iirc. 22:24:34 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:24:35 Wasn't that function modified to sleep and loop? 22:24:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:24:53 Yes it was 22:25:03 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:06 I'm trying to make it heed deadlines 22:26:15 am I the only one that thinks Van Rossum sounds like a Dutch Kermit the Frog? 22:26:45 <_deepfire> bytecolor, dunno, but Rossum sounds like Dollhouse to me.. 22:29:02 I was looking at the suggested programming projects on cliki, the code review tool suggestions links to a van Rossum video. 22:29:14 Mondrian 22:29:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-111-207.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Sleeping] 22:30:04 drewc: how do I find out what version of Debian I've got on my VPS? 22:30:43 drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:11 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 22:34:30 gigamonkey: cat /etc/debian_version 22:36:34 konr` [~user@187.88.61.232] has joined #lisp 22:37:21 MetalDust [~hi@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:09 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 22:38:12 -!- konr [~user@189.0.30.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:38:15 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 22:39:43 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 22:40:36 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a2f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:13 uranther [~James@c-98-226-156-13.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:21 drewc: thans 22:41:30 er, thanks. 22:42:48 the LSB way is "lsb_release -a", I think 22:43:55 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:04 urnthr [~James@c-98-222-201-170.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:39 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 22:45:47 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 22:47:41 -!- uranther [~James@c-98-226-156-13.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:48:04 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:20 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:52 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:53:17 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 22:53:30 -!- sierinjs [~root@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has quit [Quit: schoo schoo school! 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