00:00:16 what are the end-luser-visible effects of that? 00:00:52 Adlai: no crashes on systems that don't allow MAP_FIXED, better compatibility with systems like Win32 00:01:08 <_deepfire> Adlai, countinuing workingness in the face of stupid address space layout randomisation in Linux and yeah, a step to reliability on win32. 00:01:11 (and yes, I've got Linux machines that don't allow MAP_FIXED) 00:01:46 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:02:31 *Adlai* reads 'man 3p mmap' to find out what this is all about 00:02:35 francogrex [~user@253.89-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 00:02:37 <_deepfire> Adlai, currently SBCL doesn't explode on win32 due to sheer luck of you not having some random dlls loaded in unrelated processes. 00:02:57 <_deepfire> Sometimes you will be out of that luck. 00:03:08 Some people are -reliably- out of that luck. 00:03:28 *rsynnott* is scared of win32 sbcl 00:03:39 and IIRC SBCL isn't lucky enough to get you "Please wait, we need to rearrange address space" message I got once from windows 00:03:42 <_deepfire> The fun of win32 having dll's loaded at the same address in all processes, AIUI. 00:04:02 Phooodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:17 _deepfire: many x86 linux distros do the same, except linux solib format requires position-independent code 00:04:21 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-167-135-102.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:04:37 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-45-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:51 win32 doesn't, so you get libraries that happen to have issues with relocation 00:05:14 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:05:21 hmm, why doesn't it, I wonder? 00:05:30 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:39 does that not mean there are certain dlls which randomly can't be loaded with others? 00:05:43 I disconnected at the time some were discussing upx; maybe intersting to know that I had used something called molebox-pro to zip executables and dlls, even those made with lisp 00:05:52 <_deepfire> rsynnott, absolutely. 00:05:59 ugh 00:06:11 is this some awful hangover from win16 or something? 00:06:12 rsynnott: It does, but most dlls contain relocation information which indicates which parts of the code/data segments to modify on loading. 00:06:14 rsynnott: I once got a system DLL clashing with a driver 00:06:16 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-167-135-102.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:25 The attitude is certainly from win16. 00:06:26 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:06:38 Or to be exact, a DLL that was part of a driver clashed with system 00:07:00 Windows gave an "excuse us, but you need to replace that driver" 00:07:46 I, for one, wouldn't like to see core/executable compression by default.. 00:07:58 btw, NT6 includes position-independent executables/libraries, but afaik it also means you have to work with randomized address space 00:08:23 adeht: what about :compress t option to s-l-a-d? 00:08:52 hmm. I think on the whole I'm glad I never got into Windows programming :) 00:08:57 p_l: I'd never use it, and to me it would just mean someone made a bad decision 00:09:21 <_deepfire> adeht, surely you must understand that people have different priorities, right? 00:09:45 deepfire: people can use upx today if they want.. they can also use a fs supporting compression, or whatever 00:09:57 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-deckpukhgwskwckg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10:21 some years ago a friend wrote an essay about executable packing (in the context of windows, but I don't see why things should be so different on linux) 00:10:30 http://f0dder.reteam.org/packandstuff.htm 00:11:38 adeht: the virtues of packing it's mainly for distribution than for anything else 00:11:51 francogrex: you don't need executable/core packing for that 00:12:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:12:39 adeht: Yes, but one question - are you using 100% of what is in SBCL? Or even in ANSI CL? Every last bit? 00:12:50 I have an exe that depends of 10 dlls it would seem neater to just send one whole big (compressed exe) than all the lot that might start gettiing lost here and there 00:12:51 you wouldn't be required to compress your images 00:14:15 p_l: huh? I just said that if it'd be optional and not on by default that (i) I'd never use it and (ii) I would consider it a bad decision 00:14:24 I can always even pack the whole lot into a setup program that injects the dlls stealthily into the system folder but that wouldn't be good either 00:15:02 francogrex, if _distribution_ is your issue, just compress the executable, distribute it, and have people decompress. 00:15:41 Adlai: yes I know; but they'd still have a bunch of libraries scattered here and there 00:15:51 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-svmanwcfgltlchad] has joined #lisp 00:16:07 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-45-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:27 Adlai: don't forget DLL hell and the craziness of Windows' argv[0] 00:16:28 there is use of those of course for me, I prefer to have them, bnut I'm talking about "grandma" who needs to only use that program a couple of times in her life 00:17:00 she doesn't need all those libraries 00:17:09 <_deepfire> adeth, most (if not all) of that article doesn't apply to 1. today and 2. lisp 00:17:15 grandma should get a mac 00:17:30 and then play Xong 00:17:34 ECL has a lovely system I think it's called asdf-make-install or something 00:17:47 Adlai: I'm not evil enough to force a grandma to deal with a mac 00:17:47 -!- illuminati1113 [~user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:48 <_deepfire> francogrex: asdf:make-build 00:17:57 deepfire: I'd like to know why 00:17:58 p_l, but Xong runs nicely on macs :) 00:18:08 illuminati1113 [~user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:19 *p_l* recalls an amusing story of a grandpa wasting more than half an hour to find out how to make a directory on a mac :D 00:18:30 Adlai: yes and maybe gradma can smoke some some hash while playing Xing to maximize the experience 00:18:39 _deepfire: yes true 00:18:54 <_deepfire> adeht, he argues against system .dll compression -- not what UPX-compressed cores are about 00:19:09 deepfire: that's not the only thing he argues against 00:19:13 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:19:24 <_deepfire> adeht, he argues for importance of shared read-only mappings -- we don't have that luxury 00:19:26 ok time to sleep. see you all tomorrow 00:20:05 who is "he"? 00:20:20 <_deepfire> adeht, if you deploy using save-lisp-and-die -- you won't have any shared read-only mappings 00:20:21 deepfire: are you saying that linux doesn't share r/o pages between two running instances of the same executable? 00:20:46 adeht: depends on how the executable was running - it normally does that, though 00:21:13 -!- francogrex [~user@253.89-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:50 to be exact, all binary executables on Linux are shared the same way as a file that got mmaped with PROT_READ|PROT_EXEC 00:21:56 <_deepfire> adeht, unix kernels are about C -- deployed lisp applications are mutants from another world. 00:22:10 the differences are done through Copy-on-Write 00:22:31 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-45-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:06 <_deepfire> adeht, note that non-deployed separate-code /usr/bin/sbcl+/usr/lib/sbcl/core is a wholly different animal. 00:24:33 <_deepfire> adeht, what he says is mostly valid (except memory pressure, which is a lot less relevant today) in the C world, I don't argue with that. 00:24:44 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:24:55 deepfire: I'm not sure I understand your argument. are you saying that sbcl (i) makes the pages dirty itself, and therefore it won't matter that the executable packer does that as well, (ii) sbcl touches all the pages on startup, and therefore it won't matter that the packer does that as well, or both? 00:27:02 <_deepfire> adeht, cat /proc/$(pidof deployed-app)/maps 00:27:34 <_deepfire> adeht, you'll see a mixture of r/o an r/w pages 00:27:38 <_deepfire> er, VMAs 00:29:01 <_deepfire> adeht, also, there is another argument 00:29:30 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-084-059-023-133.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:29:45 <_deepfire> adeht, even if you take into account possible sharing of these r/o mappings -- how often will you benefit from this sharing? 00:30:20 <_deepfire> adeht, it's not like you have many deployed cores running on your machine 00:30:21 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:30:52 <_deepfire> In most cases you want deliver a standalone app in your favorite lisp implementation. 00:31:05 <_deepfire> And size reduction matters -- VMA sharing doesn't. 00:31:21 CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.11.155] has joined #lisp 00:31:41 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Peace...] 00:31:55 <_deepfire> It works in the C world -- writable mappings are rare in .so/.exe/.dll -- /and/ there is a single ABI. 00:33:21 size reduction doesn't matter to me.. if it matters to someone he can upx/fs-compress.. for distribution there's zip and friends 00:33:43 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-91-200.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:33:50 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-45-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:34:09 <_deepfire> Be real -- when did you have shared VMAs between instances of deployed CL cores? 00:34:55 <_deepfire> There's a slowdown with app startup, that's about the only real point he has. 00:35:13 _deepfire: or rather, how often do you run multiple copies of the same deployed app other than through fork() :-) 00:35:21 <_deepfire> p_l, exactly 00:35:30 <_deepfire> Um, no 00:35:55 <_deepfire> s/Um, no// 00:36:34 <_deepfire> Wrt the startup slowdown -- it's not clear either. 00:37:07 <_deepfire> The speed disparity between the hot and cold parts of computers only widens as time passes, not vice versa. 00:37:59 <_deepfire> Even if you take SSD into account. 00:38:56 <_deepfire> SO it remains to be seen whether it's faster to read 5x as much data from cold storage vs. do the unpacking. 00:39:01 <_deepfire> *So 00:40:12 <_deepfire> IOW, so far, to me it sounds like deployed lisp apps is the dream application for UPX & co -- maximum bang for the buck. 00:40:30 -!- meltingwax [~meltingwa@c-76-106-58-123.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:40:50 UPX claims 10MB/s on Pentium 133MHz, and >200MB/s on modern machine 00:41:11 So, next step is to find your I/O bandwidth. 00:42:07 <_deepfire> nyef, do not forget to tax that bandwidth with fragmentation, FS logic, I/O layer costs etc. 00:43:20 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:16 That's hardly going to take orders of magnitude, though, is it? 00:45:16 <_deepfire> Of course not. 00:45:24 And as soon as you defragment your disk, 2/3 of that drops out anyway. 00:46:24 <_deepfire> ...except there are no working defragment apps for NTFS. 00:46:43 Not even the one that MS provides? 00:47:28 <_deepfire> nyef, it's snake oil -- it leaves a miriad of small holes which actually increases fragmentation. 00:47:29 And NTFS supports compressed files -anyway-. 00:48:33 <_deepfire> That problem stems from that there are no defrag apps which do not use the MSFT defragmentation API today. 00:49:46 how does it increase fragmentation? the blocks of one file are usually laid sequentially, so fragmentation is decreased for existing data 00:49:56 <_deepfire> adeht, it's a sad story 00:49:58 adeht: It ruins it for -new- data. 00:50:04 nyef: so what? 00:50:19 Yes, exactly. 00:50:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:50:34 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-24-64.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:51:27 Really, we're looking at consequences of a workaround for consequences of the usual CL application deployment story being so awful. 00:51:47 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 00:53:57 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:59 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:56:14 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-24-64.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:54 lol 00:57:33 I somehow doubt packing would make the whiners shut up :) 00:58:00 adeht: I do have some ideas but they are lengthy, manual and error-prone 00:58:31 let's be positive. I like keyboard macros. 00:59:29 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:00:07 Let's be positive. It only took me one day to shake a commit-candidate wider-fixnums tree out of stupid-lowtag-tricks. 01:00:59 DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:48 let's be positive, there's an open source prototype of a tree shaker that no one touched for last year (at least) ;-) 01:04:42 ... I'm positive that tree-shakers are the wrong approach. :-P 01:07:38 -!- Fade [fade@vader.deepsky.com] has quit [Quit: good night] 01:08:30 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:08:45 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-97-204.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:09:11 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:23 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 01:10:32 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-3-49.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:19 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.217.71] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:11:47 <_deepfire> There's an article about how NTFS fragmentation and defragmentation complete each other: http://ixbtlabs.com/articles/ntfs/, part 2 01:11:48 nyef: cross compilers? 01:12:09 <_deepfire> Its english isn't very good, but the author seems to be quite educated. 01:13:08 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:15:25 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:51 <_deepfire> Actually, its english is outright bad. 01:16:26 nyef, depends on how much you want the end-user to fudge with the end-app. 01:17:10 though, this whole paradigm of one-app delivering is nonsence. 01:17:48 s/sence/sense/ 01:19:41 nyef, how do you feel about delivering the core as unix DSO/windows DLLs? 01:22:12 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-24-64.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:22:45 deepfire: so it says that if you run the defragmenter once you should run it again to defrag new data :) 01:23:28 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.175] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:23:54 deepfire: the two options he presents as equivalent are obviously not equivalent.. 01:27:32 blitz__ [~blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 01:29:59 <_deepfire> adeht, what options do you mean? I've already swapped it out of my conscience.. 01:30:22 *_deepfire* reloads the thing 01:30:57 search for "Thus there are two about equivalent options." 01:31:09 <_deepfire> adeht, OIC 01:31:22 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:32 <_deepfire> adeht, it's a no-win situation, really -- unless you go the vista/7 route of constant background defrag 01:31:48 <_deepfire> Which means you just spread the cost in time.. 01:32:11 deepfire: I don't see why -- in many cases, existing data gets used much more than new data. 01:33:03 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 01:33:12 pkhuong: Hey, I put together a release-candidate for wider-fixnums. 01:33:13 deepfire: what I mean is, there's data reuse 01:34:34 that's the assumption made when defragmenting 01:35:43 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:06 I guess you can complain about its drug quality, where if you use it once, you're hooked :) 01:37:00 poet [~tim@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 01:39:58 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:41:55 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:39 meric [~Eric@124-171-63-122.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:46:06 froydnj, yes, I want functional trees 01:46:19 Krystof, no, thank YOU for your feedback and patience. 01:47:09 adu, what do you mean by "xcvb packages in another language"??? 01:47:22 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:49:27 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-138-123.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 01:49:56 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:50:13 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 01:54:12 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 01:54:58 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 02:02:16 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66d798-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:09:04 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66d3ca-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 02:10:24 *Xach* finishes up binary-name dispatching entry functions for buildapp, except for the documentation bit 02:14:25 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:54 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:22:18 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:23:43 JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:25 _3b`: you about? 02:26:43 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:26:52 davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:25 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:34:47 Fare: hm. not reasonable to extend the bits that are already there? or do you figure writing the support is just about writing an entirely new library anyway? 02:34:57 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.216] has joined #lisp 02:35:04 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:54 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 02:45:54 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:02 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:52 meltingwax [~meltingwa@c-76-106-58-123.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:52 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:22 -!- poet [~tim@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:59 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-91-200.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:17:14 <_3b> Ralith: more or less 03:17:26 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.17.132] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 03:17:45 marioxcc [~user@200.92.17.132] has joined #lisp 03:19:03 troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:41 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 03:20:43 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 03:20:53 -!- troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:01 _3b: issue's resolved. 03:22:10 -!- luis [~user@r42.eu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:00 kglovern [~kglovern@CPE00222d2f0ae0-CM00222d2f0adc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:11 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:25:54 Mal1 [~gnosis@0x55536e7a.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 03:27:49 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:04 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:32:30 -!- Mal1 [~gnosis@0x55536e7a.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:39:07 -!- JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:39:35 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:55:12 -!- blitz__ [~blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:55:30 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8FDD.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:57:09 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:57:42 benny [~benny@i577A786A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:58:23 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 03:59:30 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:05:49 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06:16 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 04:12:19 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-24-64.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:33 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:15:44 lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-244-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:48 -!- lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-248-113.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:28:53 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:18 Good morning! 04:43:31 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:31 das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:24 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dscguwbbxbbhtxjw] has joined #lisp 04:50:49 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:53:00 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 04:53:37 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 04:55:23 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:57:08 -!- konr` [~user@187.117.73.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:57:43 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00:31 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:00:33 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 05:01:01 Levenson [~Levenson@91.185.12.110] has joined #lisp 05:03:38 beach: Howdy 05:05:58 hello beach 05:06:28 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-121-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:08:39 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-29-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:21:48 o/ 05:28:12 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440411.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 05:31:01 poet [~poet@ppp-70-225-162-227.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:01 -!- poet [~poet@ppp-70-225-162-227.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:31:01 poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 05:36:21 -!- jake-is-a-virus [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has left #lisp 05:36:28 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.17.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39:04 -!- CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.11.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:48:24 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 06:08:42 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: work] 06:08:46 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:15:56 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-199-201.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:17:45 -!- das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:20:46 cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has joined #lisp 06:22:25 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:28:10 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:28:47 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:30:48 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:37:15 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-24-64.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:42:41 -!- ineol [~hal@mar75-9-88-171-191-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ineol] 06:47:56 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-109-243.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:43 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:50:06 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:22 ac30_ [~user@adsl-99-32-197-159.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:33 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:01 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-5-189.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:53:18 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 06:54:38 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-1-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:55:20 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:40 Tonijz [~tonijs@85.254.194.65] has joined #lisp 06:58:01 -!- ac30_ [~user@adsl-99-32-197-159.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 07:11:10 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:13:37 Demosthenes [~demo@12.124.83.134] has joined #lisp 07:15:51 anyone know what to make of a "missing label for ##" error? 07:17:42 Ralith: you have ##? 07:17:46 not #n# 07:18:05 grep says no 07:18:44 well, you have a debugger 07:19:02 I can't reproduce in slime 07:19:31 and not in slime? 07:19:58 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:20:46 can't work out where it's coming from 07:23:08 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 07:25:01 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-248-40.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:29:06 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:29:51 mega1 [~quassel@pool-00e25.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:34:13 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:17 in cmucl's source at least there is a file sharpm.lisp that defines reader macros for #= and ## 07:35:46 and it has an error "missing label for ##" 07:37:59 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:38:18 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:47:41 -!- cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]] 07:48:52 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 07:48:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.1] has quit [Changing host] 07:48:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:49:47 Ogedei [~user@e178212172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:07 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.216] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:51:46 Risky [~Risky@p4124-ipad410osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:52:00 -!- Risky [~Risky@p4124-ipad410osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 07:52:06 jasonjgw [~user@2001:44b8:702a:4770::2] has joined #lisp 07:53:48 -!- jasonjgw [~user@2001:44b8:702a:4770::2] has left #lisp 07:54:56 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:21 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:51 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:01:53 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02:02 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:04:09 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:24 splittist [~5503234d@gateway/web/freenode/x-hduartgpadcqvode] has joined #lisp 08:05:29 morning 08:06:27 -!- pix4 [~pixel@copei.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:06:54 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:08:31 hello splittist 08:09:32 hello beach. I hope all is well 08:09:44 splittist: Can't complain. What about you? 08:10:42 I could complain if I put my mind to it, but the important things are good (: 08:11:40 splittist: Yes, I see. I feel the same. 08:12:10 l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 08:13:07 Hun [~hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:13 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:07 fiveop [~fiveop@g229242216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:26:34 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:29:16 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:30 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 08:32:09 -!- meric [~Eric@124-171-63-122.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:33:52 Zephyrus [~emanuele@zephyrus.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:57 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@zephyrus.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:33:57 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 08:34:03 CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.11.155] has joined #lisp 08:35:22 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.163] has joined #lisp 08:35:49 -!- Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:40 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 08:42:28 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:42:58 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:10 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:43:51 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 08:44:08 meric [~Eric@203-158-63-66.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:45:19 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:46:08 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:46:39 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:35 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:51:14 -!- CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.11.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:52:55 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e54.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:04 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:00 -!- Kludgy [~therealkl@S01060018f85956c8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 09:02:02 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:19 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:02:40 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:19 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:41 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:52 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:48 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07:27 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-243-239.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:02 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 09:16:42 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:19:54 -!- poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:25:21 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:26:51 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-121-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:27:07 lukego [~lukegorri@130.253.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 09:27:52 how do I make slime indent `loop' the way god intended? 09:28:13 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:28:16 lukego: which way is that? (i'd ask god himself, but...) 09:28:19 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28:26 lukego: loop is satan's work 09:28:36 (setq lisp-simple-loop-indentation 1 lisp-loop-keyword-indentation 6 lisp-loop-forms-indentation 6) ? 09:28:40 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:58 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:12 I'm not exactly sure how to characterise it, but if I have multiple 'for' clauses for example then I expect them to align 09:31:03 lukego: like http://blog.splittist.com/2006/07/29/indenting-loop/ ? 09:31:38 FufieToo [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:31:52 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:32:33 nostoi [~nostoi@102.Red-79-156-244.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:58 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33:00 oh (slime-setup '(... slime-indentation)) seems to be the ticket 09:33:08 splittist yeah like in your post 09:34:33 lukego: I think that's what the slime-indentation thing does, as you've discovered... 09:34:46 surprised it's not on by default ? 09:34:55 or included in slime-fancy 09:35:14 carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.251] has joined #lisp 09:37:11 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:31 it seems to broken, but i haven't used it 09:40:02 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:45 trittweiler [~tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 09:47:14 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:47:14 -!- xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:47:28 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:47:42 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:51:49 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:53:03 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 09:56:34 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has joined #lisp 09:56:34 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has quit [Changing host] 09:56:34 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:58:18 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 09:59:06 -!- BrianRice [~briantric@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:59:25 BrianRice [~briantric@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:14 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-102-72.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:02:11 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:08:45 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:10:43 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:11:35 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-12504.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:13:26 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.68.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:18:54 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:20:49 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.68.101] has joined #lisp 10:21:51 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:52 Blkt [~user@net-93-146-149-241.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:23:06 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:23:51 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 10:25:01 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:37 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:27:26 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@102.Red-79-156-244.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:27:44 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:25 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 10:32:12 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:48 -!- davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:19 peterwang [~user@222.50.3.72] has joined #lisp 10:43:47 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:43:54 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:55 lukego_ [~lukegorri@203.82.94.18] has joined #lisp 10:45:38 Krystof: I might finally get a PhD student to develop Gsharp! 10:45:47 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:45:55 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 10:47:08 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@130.253.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:47:08 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 10:49:47 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:50:39 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-109-243.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 10:56:08 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-00e25.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:59:01 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 10:59:19 cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has joined #lisp 11:02:13 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-243-239.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:04 mk2 [~user@159.92.64.121] has joined #lisp 11:06:25 alama [~alama@gw-e-U-EdVII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has joined #lisp 11:09:26 -!- alama [~alama@gw-e-U-EdVII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 11:12:10 alama [~alama@gw-e-U-EdVII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has joined #lisp 11:14:52 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:36 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dscguwbbxbbhtxjw] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:20:42 -!- Myko [~Heathen79@adsl-75-60-217-193.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:22:30 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-81-46.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:22:44 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 11:26:39 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-146-149-241.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:26:46 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:27:10 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:24 lispm [~joswig@e177121094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:39:23 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@203.82.94.18] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:12 lukego [~lukegorri@203.82.93.14] has joined #lisp 11:41:28 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:41:46 -!- alama [~alama@gw-e-U-EdVII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 11:43:16 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:43:46 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 11:44:11 hello. 11:45:19 zeugma [~user@CPE-76-85-179-51.neb.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:25 -!- ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:46:14 -!- zeugma [~user@CPE-76-85-179-51.neb.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 11:46:23 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:26 hello trebor_dki 11:47:02 minion, memo for Fare: it was locatives or locf what i was looking for (yesterday). 11:47:44 is minion whitespace sensitive? 11:48:07 try : rather than , 11:48:51 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:21 minion: memo for Fare: thanks for you help. it was locatives or locf what i was looking for (yesterday). 11:49:21 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 11:49:31 thanks beach 11:49:42 minion: memo for Fare: btw, Allegro has a seed argument as the second value to make-random-state. 11:49:43 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 11:49:50 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:50:00 trebor_dki: no problem. 11:51:58 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 11:53:13 pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 11:59:44 brill [~brill@193.3.1.132] has joined #lisp 12:02:36 alama [~alama@gw-e-U-EdVII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has joined #lisp 12:04:04 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.124.83.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:06:11 -!- alama [~alama@gw-e-U-EdVII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 12:07:38 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:33 -!- meric [~Eric@203-158-63-66.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:39 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:11:52 meric [~Eric@203-214-145-35.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:12:00 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:13:28 -!- brill [~brill@193.3.1.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:16:06 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e54.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20:50 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:22:19 ruepel0r [~rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:26:06 What's a concise way to apply a function to every unique combination of the elements of two lists? 12:26:10 i.e. 12:26:29 '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3) => (f 1 1) (f 1 2) (f 1 3) (f 2 1) ... 12:26:47 (apply-to-unique-pairs #'function list) 12:27:01 ineol [~hal@2a01:e35:8abb:fa80:226:8ff:fe01:5f90] has joined #lisp 12:27:06 writing apply-to-unique-pairs is left as an exercise to the reader 12:27:26 :P 12:27:44 could've sworn I saw a nice, clean, idiomatic oneliner example of this. 12:29:53 Ralith: what does "unique combination" mean? 12:30:02 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229242216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 12:30:13 jdz: see my example. 12:30:33 probably shouldn't've said "unique" 12:30:35 but you get the idea 12:30:43 Ralith: i don't see anything "unique" in your example, that's why i ask 12:31:01 jdz: well, now you know. 12:31:27 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.135] has joined #lisp 12:33:37 (defun cross-product (function list-1 list-2) (mapcan (lambda (a) (mapcar (lambda (b) (funcall function a b)) list-1)) list-2)) 12:33:49 Ralith, i think there's something for that in alexandria 12:33:56 I'm trying to work out a good solution for N lists 12:34:01 (though I only actually need 2) 12:35:20 is cross product what you need? 12:36:27 -!- cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:36:56 stassats`: yes. 12:36:59 thank you. 12:37:22 -!- blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:35 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 12:37:39 is cross-product of n sets defined? 12:39:07 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-102-72.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:14 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:38 lichtblau: I just posted that 12:41:39 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-125.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:41:39 jdz pasted "call it map-cross-product if you like" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94979 12:45:02 -!- ruepel0r [~rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:45:20 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 12:46:58 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-3-49.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:48:43 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-107-200.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:30 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:49:49 anyone having trouble with sbcl-1.0.35.16 and the latest slime? 12:50:05 spacebat: package related? 12:50:19 slime fails to run properly 12:50:28 the swank connection closes 12:50:32 can you be more specific 12:50:38 spacebat: Just try again 12:50:44 I've seen it, too 12:50:53 I'm building sbcl again 12:51:02 I mean just try M-x slime again 12:51:18 once the build is finished :) 12:51:20 ruepel0r [~rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:23 I did try a few times 12:51:40 I thought it's the known Emacs bug, but it's true that I haven't seen it before in the gui version of Emacs, but with recent sbcl I do see it 12:52:00 sounds like haiku "slime fails to run properly \\ the swank connection closes \\ I'm building sbcl again" 12:52:31 the perfect haiku has just two syllables.... AirWolf! 12:53:43 mega1 [~quassel@3e44a3eb.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:54:02 slime, it don't run good. swank, it don't talk to emacs. steel bank lisp won't build. 12:54:54 caaar // caddr // cddaar 12:55:35 (run) // (error) // (quit) 12:56:02 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:56:16 unicode [~user@95.214.18.146] has joined #lisp 12:56:24 Guard page suspended // LDB is disabled // Time to crash this lisp 12:56:46 tcr: you're right, if I immediately run slime again it works 12:56:50 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:57:27 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440411.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:58:55 Levenson1 [~Levenson@91.185.12.110] has joined #lisp 12:58:58 spacebat: If you have a powerful machine, could you build 1.0.35.0 and try if that exhibits that behavior too? 12:59:40 I'd guess culprit is 1.0.35.2 12:59:50 or rather "could possibly be" 12:59:56 Could you verify that? 13:00:16 I was running .1 before, and it worked for most things :) 13:00:29 use-package had a penchant to hang though 13:00:32 Ok try building .2 13:00:35 yeah that's known 13:00:48 Hopefully someone will find the time to fix it in .35.x 13:01:00 what's the cvs command to get .2? 13:01:26 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@91.185.12.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:02:03 http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git?a=snapshot;h=5e55f426de8fa579a0d6cfbfb3ac5433d530d3c9;sf=tgz 13:02:09 will give you a snapshot tgz 13:02:15 ok 13:02:16 nice cvs command 13:03:20 spacebat: you're on linux, right? 13:04:54 yes 13:05:29 alright then 13:06:07 oh, use-package hangs for me not because of threads (on OS X)? 13:07:00 because of threads, but not because of OS X 13:08:35 the Lisp Machine // scanning symbols on the heap // what is their meaning? 13:08:59 tcr: The other day you said that asd files should begin with (in-package :cl-user). Whats the precise reason for that? 13:10:03 silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has joined #lisp 13:14:20 lukego_ [~lukegorri@203.82.92.31] has joined #lisp 13:15:31 demmeln: So you're not bitten by *package* when loading the .asd file manually 13:16:14 *package* may do funky stuff (like having shadowed symbols from CL with all-too-slightly different semantics) 13:16:16 demmeln: It seems like compile file compiles the file in whatever package is current (as in *package*) as opposed to some package by default. 13:16:26 -!- peterwang [~user@222.50.3.72] has left #lisp 13:16:31 damn 13:16:49 I built it, but the tarball is 1.0.35.16 13:16:55 tcr: in what cases do you load .asd files manually? 13:17:37 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:17:41 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@203.82.93.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:17:41 jdz: Trying out some software 13:17:44 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 13:17:54 spacebat: Huh, really? 13:18:17 version.lisp-expr:"1.0.35.16" 13:19:14 tcr: Why would you load an .asd file manually to try some software? 13:19:20 tcr: i just write asdf:defsystem and use keywords/strings everywhere else... 13:19:36 Xach: to not push the stuff on *central-registry*? 13:19:51 well, that's my guess anyway 13:19:52 jdz: Yes, explicitly qualifying is the other thing one should do 13:20:07 jdz: Still you should put an explicit in-package in there 13:20:21 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:20:24 something [~something@c-68-44-0-227.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:25 Ah, I always ,cd to the directory in question. 13:20:25 What's the standard way to copy an array? 13:20:38 explicitness is next to pornliness 13:20:41 i don't see why if you qualify my symbols... 13:20:55 Xach: Also to test modification made in an .asd file; I'm not sure whether forcing loading of a system will make asdf actually reload the .asd file 13:21:18 jdz: because the *package* in your REPL may do funky stuff 13:21:28 tcr: So if you qualify everything you're find, and if you have the (in-package ..) and dont qualify everything you're fine too. 13:21:40 tcr: How could it do funky stuff to (asdf:defsystem ...)? 13:21:44 No you need both 13:21:52 Ralith: copy-seq I guess 13:22:23 Xach: How many .asd file consist just of a defsystem? 13:22:24 spacebat: that only works for 1dim 13:22:26 got a solution though 13:22:33 Ralith: http://www.lemonodor.com/archives/000100.html 13:22:34 Ralith, try ALEXANDRIA:COPY-ARRAY 13:22:38 tcr: All of mine. 13:22:41 tcr: all my systems consist of just defsystem... 13:22:42 tcr: Is *package* used anywhere but the reader? 13:22:44 tcr: And most of the ones I've read, too. 13:22:54 How do you define TEST-OPs? 13:23:00 tcr: I don't define TEST-OPs. 13:23:06 demmeln, INTERN, UNINTERN, etc use it 13:23:10 I do 13:23:41 I'm not sure what your point is. I give guide lines that make sure that people are not bitten at any time. 13:23:45 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:24:13 Noise bites. 13:24:24 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177121094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:24:29 I think it's better to use it when it's needed, and be clear about when it's needed. 13:24:33 An in package form? 13:25:04 Xach: yeah, that's what I found 13:25:09 Yes, I think it's better to use an in-package form when it's needed in an .asd file instead of in every .asd file by default. 13:25:19 Adlai: can't very well depend on alexandria in the bot, can I? 13:25:26 Adlia: Ok makes sense. 13:25:27 tcr: I get why you should have the in-packge. Why do you need to qualify everything if the in-package is there? 13:25:45 demmeln, tab completion makes sense too, most IRC clients have it... 13:25:46 demmeln: You need to qualify the symbols from ASDF so you can use them 13:26:33 demmeln: since cl-user does not use asdf (by default) 13:27:21 Adlai: Well I am sorry. 13:27:24 Adlai pasted "ALEXANDRIA:COPY-ARRAY" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94980 13:27:42 Ralith, it's a very straightforward definition 13:28:08 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:10 demmeln, no need to apologize, it just makes future conversation easier 13:28:55 lispm [~joswig@f054055022.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:29:22 -!- lispm [~joswig@f054055022.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:39 -!- ineol [~hal@2a01:e35:8abb:fa80:226:8ff:fe01:5f90] has quit [Quit: ineol] 13:30:10 Adlai: Fair enough. 13:30:32 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:31:38 Myko [~Heathen79@adsl-75-60-214-172.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:09 arnee [~arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:55 tcr: ok. I think it makes sense to use (in-package :cl-user) and qualify the asdf stuff in every asd file as a best practice (even though it is not always needed) 13:33:10 -!- something [~something@c-68-44-0-227.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: something] 13:34:14 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:35:31 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:06 -!- Levenson1 [~Levenson@91.185.12.110] has left #lisp 13:36:44 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.108.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:39:50 ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:43:19 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:19 -!- Tonijz [~tonijs@85.254.194.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:44:23 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:32 -!- meric [~Eric@203-214-145-35.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45:10 meric [~Eric@203-214-145-35.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:45:12 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-125.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:46:12 DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 13:47:50 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:55:09 hello 13:56:00 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:57:12 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-107-200.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:57:23 lukego_ [~lukegorri@130.253.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 13:58:04 hello fe[nl]ix 13:58:36 *Xach* accidentally finds gavino's new blog 13:58:46 curse this google blog search for "common lisp"! 13:58:47 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-231-183.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:06 hi splittist :) 14:00:36 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@203.82.92.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:00:36 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 14:01:08 -!- easyE [i6om0dEQfG@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:04:15 -!- ruepel0r [~rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:07:18 easyE [EcK9EiSfaU@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:27 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-35-83.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:08:35 hrm, slime fuzzy completion broke down in the repl for me... due to (re-search-backward "\"[^ \t\n]+\\=" nil t) triggering a stack overflow. wonder what caused that from the 30 last commits... 14:10:01 G'morning all. 14:10:08 Xach, link? 14:10:14 hi nyef 14:10:42 hello nyef, splittist, fe[nl]ix, et al 14:11:07 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-125.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 14:11:13 Adlai: http://technoninja.blogspot.com/ 14:13:15 this is supposed to be a blog? it looks more like a collage by a tech-obsessed psychopath 14:13:52 Adlai: mongodb lisp database \o/ 14:13:53 madnificent, memo from balooga: Have your figured out why sdl:image-type-of was not working for you? 14:13:56 Adlai: ... And this comes as a surprise? 14:14:19 minion: tell balooga yes, I think I spoke to you about it. There is nothing wrong with the library 14:14:20 balooga: well, i don't think yes i think you spoke to you about it there is nothing wrong with the library though 14:14:31 nyef, I was hoping for something more brucious, but I guess gavino lacks that eloquence 14:15:15 madnificent: nice chat you're having here :) 14:15:17 minion: memo for balooga: yes, I think I spoke to you about it. There is nothing wrong with the library. Thanks! 14:15:18 Remembered. I'll tell balooga when he/she/it next speaks. 14:15:39 jdz: yes, minion, me and minionesse are having FUN! 14:15:40 minion: chant! 14:15:41 MORE BRUCIOUS 14:16:06 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.18.146] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:17:49 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:17:50 alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has joined #lisp 14:20:01 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:38 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:26:38 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:53 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:30:02 -!- arnee [~arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:45 phf [~user@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:09 -!- phf [~user@host.icnfull.com] has left #lisp 14:34:51 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440411.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 14:35:07 fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:17 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 14:37:35 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-91-200.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:37:57 -!- Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:39:49 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:42:23 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:25 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:48 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:43:18 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:43:43 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:41 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 14:50:49 -!- ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:55:57 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:57:33 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:57:48 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:32 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:58:32 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:58:32 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:58:37 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:58:41 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:00:01 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:09 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:01:47 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:03:19 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:47 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 15:12:28 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:12:35 Greetings lispers 15:12:57 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:08 Hello tmh. 15:15:18 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:15:54 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:16:39 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:16:48 TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:20 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@130.253.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: lukego] 15:20:32 ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:20:37 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:23:26 -!- ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:27:08 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27:50 ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:29:42 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 15:29:52 fiveop [~fiveop@g229242216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:23 johnthesavage [~stoic@dhcp195-187.wireless.buffalo.edu] has joined #lisp 15:32:18 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:33:25 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:34:55 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:35:24 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 15:35:25 I don't understand something. Using ASDF, I compiled and loaded package A that depends on package B. There was a new function in package B that I forgot to export using DEFPACKAGE, so package A complains about an undefined function. I go into package B and export the function manually and get a symbol conflict that I resolve manually. At this point, I would expect everything to be resolved, but I had to go back through and compile the 15:35:25 functions that depended on the function I forgot to export. What am I missing? 15:36:10 tmh: the functions still used the wrong symbol. Symbol resolution happens at read-time. 15:36:18 tmh, those functions got compiled to call the now-uninterned symbol 15:36:56 -!- Myko [~Heathen79@adsl-75-60-214-172.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:37:07 Ah, so package-a::symbol was uninterned and replaced with package-b:symbol, but the functions were looking for package-a::symbol. 15:38:16 #1=package-a::symbol was unintern and replaced with package-b:symbol, but the functions were calling the symbol-function of #1# 15:38:30 Ok, that makes sense. 15:38:47 at this point, (read-from-string "package-a::symbol") will return package-b:symbol 15:43:06 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:28 Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:39 kriyative [~rkris@ip68-231-199-120.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:57 -!- kriyative [~rkris@ip68-231-199-120.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:27 kriyative [~user@ip68-231-199-120.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:17 -!- FufieToo [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:47:38 -!- johnthesavage [~stoic@dhcp195-187.wireless.buffalo.edu] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:48:01 bigwavejake [~w0lfpak@sas12242.nat.sas.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:13 A while ago I had some trouble with wrapping READ-LINE in WITH-TIMEOUT on SBCL. I was told that WITH-DEADLINE is the right thing instead. Is there some discussion somewhere about the distinction between these two constructs? 15:49:58 The problem with WITH-TIMEOUT is that it amounts to an asynchronous interrupt, and there are a very limited number of things you can safely do from an asynchronous interrupt, and most of the things that users want to do aren't of that number. 15:50:50 Arcade [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 15:51:04 -!- alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has quit [Quit: alama] 15:51:16 A non-local exit to somewhere outside the dynamic contour of the invocation of the timeout handler is one of the things that are not of that number, and is the most common desired use-case. 15:51:58 rpg: some code in sbcl (grabbing mutex, condition-wait, serve-event) check in known, safe places if the deadline has exhausted, if so they signal a timeout. 15:52:35 WITH-DEADLINE is safe with respect to SBCL internals and unwind, in theory, though you can easily still lose with respect to user code. 15:52:46 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:52:47 Thus, it's safer... But not safe. 15:52:53 How so? 15:53:15 tcr: I think, e.g., I found that read-line wasn't atomic --- if it was interrupted data could be lost. 15:53:38 The problem I have is how to make code portable across CL implementations that lack the DEADLINE/TIMEOUT split.... 15:53:49 Must give this some thought.... 15:54:15 alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has joined #lisp 15:54:42 What do you use read-line on? 15:54:47 Rule of thumb is: if it's an I/O operation wrap it in WITH-DEADLINE? 15:54:52 tcr: socket stream. 15:55:21 -!- Arcade [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:55:23 Ideally, SBCL's socket functions came with a timeout argument (which would internally resolve to a deadline) 15:55:25 tcr: But I don't think that matters --- at the time I examined the source (may have changed), the buffer was function local and it didn't unget on interrupt. 15:55:27 tcr: Consider the case where you want to do something other than unwind when the deadline expires, but you also want to do something that uses the same resources normally. It is very easy to lose if the deadline expires while the resources that the deadline handler needs are in use. 15:55:40 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 15:55:55 tcr: so if I create a socket with a timeout argument, it will carry over to all following reads? 15:56:34 no you should specify timeout in the reads 15:57:02 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:03 Hah. buildapp works great on windows except for that un-suppressable kitten of death. 15:57:05 Thus: Safer, SBCL itself behaves more correctly with it. And not completely safe: You still don't have general PCLSRing. 15:57:09 jewel [~jewel@41.30.170.205] has joined #lisp 15:58:00 there should be an option --suppress-kitten 15:58:28 Xach: I'll agree to removing the deathkitten when the memory-map problem is solved. 15:59:05 stassats: Heh. I had just thought about that, though I was thinking --no-deathkitten. 15:59:05 tcr: read-line doesn't accept timeout (except with enclosing with-timeout, I suppose). 15:59:07 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:59:15 nyef: Could you elaborate on that case? I use deadlines to periodically check for messages, and act upon those messages. 16:00:00 marcelinollano [~marcelino@50.Red-79-152-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:31 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:00:36 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:00:59 tcr: Suppose you have a lock over all access to your socket stream. Suppose further that it is a non-recursive lock. Start the deadline with a handler that grabs the lock and shoves a message down the socket. Next, grab the lock and try to read from the socket. Deadline expires while the lock is still held, and the handler tries to grab the (already held) lock. Deadlock. 16:01:29 a symptom of "locks don't compose". 16:02:05 A symptom of "asynchronous interrupts aren't safe". 16:02:27 Do it without the locks and you can construct a scenario that involves data corruption instead. 16:02:36 nyef: without locks and with STM? (: 16:02:54 tcr: ansi-stream-read-line has a buffer defined in LET that can be lost on timeout.... 16:03:09 or transactional IO, actually. 16:03:39 is there a way to tell the type system that the value of a certain variable will always be greater than or equal to the value of another variable? In this case both variables are part of the same struct 16:03:44 But we're not -supplying- transactional I/O. 16:03:47 ineol [~hal@2a01:e35:8abb:fa80:226:8ff:fe01:5f90] has joined #lisp 16:04:12 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:32 freiksenet1 [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:04:32 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:37 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:04:43 madnificent: what would the type system do with this information? 16:05:15 (assert (> a b)) ? 16:05:15 infer that a certain function will always return a positive result, in this case 16:05:19 nyef: right. I'm just saying that async interrupts with transactions (that take care of masking and all that) might work. 16:05:38 Sure, but you need to be able to define your transactions. 16:05:47 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:05:56 stassats: will the typing system infer information from that? Or will it just add a check for it? 16:05:59 Which ends up at general PCLSRing, which is Fare's field. 16:06:15 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:17 madnificent: that is a check. The type system isn't involved. 16:06:43 madnificent: I don't know if SBCL will do some type propagation from there, but I would be very surprised if it did. 16:07:08 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 16:07:08 I thought so :) Thanks though 16:07:24 madnificent: So you want the compiler to infer from a > b and the fact that b >= 0 that a will always be positive? 16:07:36 demmeln [~Adium@2001:4ca0:0:f202:21c:b3ff:fec4:57d3] has joined #lisp 16:07:44 nyef, rpg: Got called for dinner 16:07:48 bbl 16:07:54 why not just make a type declaration to the effect that a is always positive? 16:08:30 ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:52 nyef: so should I/O operations not just be wrapped in deadlines, but also protected from the effects of with-timeout? 16:09:16 rpg: It depends on the scope of your timeout. 16:09:31 And if any -other- asynchronous event can interfere. 16:09:53 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:13 ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:19 marioxcc [~user@200.92.183.163] has joined #lisp 16:11:24 nyef: well, assuming I have a read-line on a socket that I wish to time-bound, I believe I should wrap it in with-deadline /and/ also in a construct that prevents with-timeouts from interrupting it? 16:11:35 rpg: somewhat. as both a and b are fixnums it could -in theory at least- infer that the result will be a fixnum too and that it would be positive. I was mostly just interested though 16:11:42 -!- splittist [~5503234d@gateway/web/freenode/x-hduartgpadcqvode] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:11:51 -!- bigwavejake [~w0lfpak@sas12242.nat.sas.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:55 [this is purely conjectural, since a read-line that times out will cause data loss, so I need to do something else, anyway] 16:13:16 rpg: You could make sure that no caller of your function uses with-timeout in the first place. Or that the uses of with-timeout are of that small number of safe things. And don't forget things like SIGUSR2 and whatnot... 16:14:31 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.30.170.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:14:38 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.183.163] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:40 Hmm, what's a nice way to get #p"foo.txt" from #p"/usr/local/share/fribble/foo.txt"? 16:14:46 The amount of paranoia that you should use depends on your audience, the cost of things going wrong, the cost of making sure things don't go wrong, etc. 16:15:16 marioxcc [~user@200.92.183.163] has joined #lisp 16:15:57 (the same method should also work to get #p"foo" from #p"/etc/foo", ideally) 16:16:00 Xach: file-namestring 16:16:30 stassats: (pathname (file-namestring pathname))? 16:16:43 good enough, thanks. 16:16:55 nyef: does SBCL use sigusr2? 16:17:15 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 16:17:17 most places take pathname designator 16:17:21 rpg: Internally? Not that I'm aware of. But a user may set a handler for it. 16:17:58 ISTR having set something like that up for minion et al. to dump a backtrace to a file when the process gets hit with SIGUSR2. 16:18:09 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.183.163] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:18:10 nyef: Oh, good! Thanks --- I have a program that may need to define a handler for one of the SIGUSR{1,2} --- I was afraid you meant that SBCL already used it. 16:18:10 *Xach* wants buildapp to add ".exe" as needed, is going to work from sb-ext:*runtime-pathname* to do it 16:18:17 (Yes, backtrace-to-file is on the reasonably-safe list.) 16:19:00 Xach: (merge-pathnames foo (make-pathname :type "exe")) ? 16:19:31 gonzojive_ [~red@c-76-102-6-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:38 nyef: "exe" is not appropriate on unix 16:19:41 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:53 Okay, :type (pathname-type ...) ? 16:20:07 marioxcc [~user@200.92.183.163] has joined #lisp 16:20:26 that'll do 16:21:45 somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 16:22:04 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:22:27 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178212172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 16:23:55 ... Are class and method redefinition in SBCL thread-safe? 16:24:13 nyef: sort of. *world-lock* is involved, I believe. 16:24:15 (And is update-instance-for-redefined-class likewise?) 16:26:44 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:27:16 pkhuong: Hey, does my wider-fixnums branch look good as a commit sequence for CVS? 16:28:26 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: --> home] 16:31:50 nyef: haven't had time to look at it much. 16:32:01 Fair enough. 16:32:51 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-52-82-65-65-63.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:32:52 lukego [~lukegorri@130.253.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 16:32:57 If it passes the testing I'm planning on giving it (basically a build-and-test-suite run for each patch in the series over a set of build options) then I'm planning on committing it. Possibly as soon as wednesday. 16:37:38 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:39:33 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e54.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:20 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:44 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:46:03 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:55 -!- alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has quit [Quit: alama] 16:48:31 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-22-139.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:46 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:52:19 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:56 -!- TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 16:55:10 -!- ineol [~hal@2a01:e35:8abb:fa80:226:8ff:fe01:5f90] has quit [Quit: ineol] 16:57:12 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:57:32 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:57:59 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-217-75.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:07 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 17:03:17 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.80.87] has joined #lisp 17:04:13 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:04:45 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:09 -!- dfox [~dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:09:38 -!- retupmoca [~retupmoca@99.54.133.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:14:42 dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has joined #lisp 17:15:04 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440411.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:15:08 -!- porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15:43 -!- zoe [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:15:44 zoe_ [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:12 porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:59 -!- zoe_ is now known as zoe 17:18:13 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@130.253.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: lukego] 17:18:17 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:25 abugosh [~Adium@dhcp-160-172.dsl.enter.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:54 alama [~alama@a95-95-138-123.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:20:58 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:02 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:27 ... Is it legal to define an allocate-instance method for a class that returns an exising instance if one already exists in order to implement, for example, singletons? 17:23:32 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:24:48 kriyativ` [~user@ip68-231-199-120.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:22 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:25:27 retupmoca [~retupmoca@adsl-99-54-128-83.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:37 -!- abugosh [~Adium@dhcp-160-172.dsl.enter.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:26:01 -!- kriyative [~user@ip68-231-199-120.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:26:03 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:57 nyef: I don't think so, in that I think that allocate-instance's contract is to allocate an instance 17:27:20 I don't know of any CLOS implementation that depends on that contract, though 17:27:31 Actually, its contract is to return an instance in which all of the slots are unbound. 17:27:43 It is not required to be a -fresh- instace. 17:27:57 -!- kriyativ` [~user@ip68-231-199-120.oc.oc.cox.net] has left #lisp 17:28:36 Hrm... Or maybe it is. 17:28:52 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:29:06 Depends on how much we can distort the meaning of "creates and returns a new instance of the class, without initializing it." 17:29:12 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:01 Discourse coherence suggests that the following sentence about the slots applies specifically to the initialization. 17:31:30 I'd go with the two sentences in the notes section, though, which give free reign to a metaobject protocol to redefine things and strongly suggests that the normal description applies to the default methods. 17:33:30 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:36:15 AMOP says 'The interpretation of an "uninitialized" instance depends on the class metaobject class.' 17:37:50 abugosh [~Adium@dhcp-160-172.dsl.enter.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:13 -!- meric [~Eric@203-214-145-35.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: meric] 17:39:50 something [~something@c-68-44-0-227.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:54 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@50.Red-79-152-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:51 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:53 rpg: still there? 17:44:14 -!- something [~something@c-68-44-0-227.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:45:59 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 17:46:26 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-12504.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:46:52 something [~something@c-68-44-0-227.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:41 bytecolor [~user@32.153.113.112] has joined #lisp 17:52:06 tcr: yes, sorry --- I was in the middle of an IM exchange. 17:52:24 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:38 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:53:48 rpg: If it's for sockets, usocket provides a wait-for-input which you can use if you have only one reader 17:54:15 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:54:58 tcr: Thanks. I'm afraid what I'm using is a home-brewed ACL-compatibility library for SBCL sockets. I really like the way ACL's library smoothly folds together the sockets and streams. 17:55:41 tcr: ACL gives a very lispy feel that keeps you off the BSD socket ickiness down at the bottom. Took me a while, but I pretty much managed to build that for SBCL sockets. 17:55:54 Does ACL's read-line take a timeout parameter? 17:56:07 tcr: No, but you can safely wrap it in with-timeout 17:56:28 hum... 17:56:45 (My library builds higher-level objects that mate an SBCL BSD socket with a corresponding gray-stream subclass). 17:58:07 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:59:03 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-24-64.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:18 -!- abugosh [~Adium@dhcp-160-172.dsl.enter.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:00:19 I wonder why usocket doesn't do that 18:00:49 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-90383.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:50 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:26 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:01:44 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:02:28 tcr: it's a bad idea 18:02:32 tcr: I'd have to look again at usocket. The last time I did, I passed on quickly just because I had everything I needed in ACL-specific CL, and I wanted to port that, instead of rewriting everything into a common framework. 18:03:15 fe[nl]ix: Why? 18:03:36 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:04:40 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-199-201.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:04:48 rpg: what are your thoughts on iolib? 18:05:26 sykopomp: I thought it didn't work for me because of ACL incompatibility with CFFI on the :longlong issue.... 18:05:43 -!- silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has quit [Quit: silenius] 18:05:46 sykopomp: fe[nl]ix said it doesn't work on allegro; I do not know whether he meant that in general, or some specific parts of iolib. But I'll probably be educated in a few seconds :-) 18:05:48 tcr: because it leads to a combinatorial explosion of subclasses and doesn't really map well onto the socket API 18:06:10 rpg: oh. I don't know about ACL issues. 18:06:26 -!- bytecolor [~user@32.153.113.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:06:52 fe[nl]ix: what kind of subclasses? 18:07:05 tcr: it's what iolib does now(copied from Allegro) and I plan to stop doing that and rewrite the whole thing 18:07:19 gray streams for sockets? 18:08:10 Personally, I don't like having my nose rubbed in the details of socket programming. I did it once, to make this library, and I'm happy to have it hidden from now on.... 18:10:15 tcr: every permutation of address family(Internet, local, etc...), socket type(stream, datagram, ...), and socket connection(active/passive) 18:10:23 -!- something [~something@c-68-44-0-227.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: something] 18:11:00 tcr: actually combination, not permutation 18:12:00 why do you need to discriminate that on the class level? 18:12:04 fe[nl]ix: Why do you need to have different streams for the internet versus local socket types? 18:12:21 To be fair, my stuff only runs on TCP sockets.... 18:13:36 rpg: There are a couple of operations that only make sense in terms of a local (same machine) socket connection. 18:14:11 nyef: stream operations? 18:14:24 something [~something@c-68-44-0-227.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:44 Probably not. 18:16:10 tcr: if you want to only use nice & elegant CLOS for the entire implementation, it's necessary 18:16:11 big if 18:16:46 I wonder if the vtable-in-instance-slots approach will work better 18:16:52 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:16:55 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:17:26 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:32 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:17:53 fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:18:21 I had 10 sockety classes in my implementation (which actually does have the file sockets, although I've never used them beyond testing once). 18:18:37 Several were mixins. Didn't seem that painful. 18:22:50 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 18:25:40 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:26:25 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has joined #lisp 18:28:11 fe[nl]ix: I have to go off, but later on I'd like to get your thoughts about this some more. You say that this doesn't map well onto the socket API, but my feeling is that what I mostly care about is the STREAM API. 18:28:27 The socket API is just a nuisance that I have to go through to get the stream which is what I really want. 18:28:38 maybe we can chat later.... 18:28:51 cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has joined #lisp 18:29:10 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:31:41 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has joined #lisp 18:32:01 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:05 rpg: ok 18:34:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 18:36:06 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:05 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:45 ziga [~user@BSN-61-9-33.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:16 davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:36 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:49:16 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:53:25 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-5-189.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:30 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-22-129.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:53:53 enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:58 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:56:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:57:14 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:23 airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:47 Hello; I've got a webapp using Hunchentoot (1.1). In development builds, hunchentoot:*catch-errors-p* is NIL, so that errors that come up during request processing throw us into the debugger. This works fine when connected with Slime. 18:59:19 However, I'm seeing strange behavior when not connected with Slime -- at the plain REPL, I get: 18:59:23 debugger invoked on a WCOF::WCOF-ERROR in thread #: 18:59:26 Sample error for testing 18:59:29 (sb-thread:interrupt-thread (car (sb-thread:list-all-threads)) #'abort) 18:59:39 but that's it -- there's no debugger prompt or restarts or anything 18:59:45 -!- Oddity is now known as Oddy 18:59:53 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-072-185-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:54 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:54 -!- airolson_ is now known as airolson 18:59:56 it appears to be waiting on input in the Hunchentoot worker thread 19:00:00 -!- Oddy is now known as Odditys 19:00:05 -!- Odditys is now known as Oddity 19:00:28 which I can unhang by calling ABORT in it with sb-thread:interrupt-thread 19:00:57 but I'm wondering if anyone has seen this behavior or knows how I could get the debugger to come up in the REPL 19:01:18 enn: I'm not entirely certain, but this may have something to do with the SBCL concept of a "session". 19:01:35 I have to ask though, why would you not be using slime? 19:02:12 usually I am 19:02:50 -!- something [~something@c-68-44-0-227.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: something] 19:03:00 sometimes we have dev instances that are used by QA and we might not necessarily connect with Slime until after they've found a problem 19:03:09 -!- lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-244-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:03:14 but I wasn't familiar with SBCL sessions -- googling now... 19:04:28 -!- BrianRice [~briantric@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bbl] 19:04:33 nyef: ah, it looks like get-foreground and release-foreground might work -- thank you 19:04:49 No problem. 19:06:33 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@66.183.67.202] has quit [Changing host] 19:06:34 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:07:05 lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-193-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:36 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:42 -!- lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-072-185-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:09:04 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 19:09:48 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:10:08 dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:11:29 republican_devil [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:55 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:50 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:25 ilisp vs slime? 19:15:02 is there a question? 19:15:25 I noticed ilisp as part of emacs 19:15:37 but mostly I have been told slime is nice 19:15:47 before slime was around, ilisp was what people used. 19:15:53 hello, technoninja. 19:15:53 http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ilisp&word2=slime 19:15:57 Slime wins 19:16:02 gavino wins this time. 19:19:33 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:19:40 I'm going to write a book on how to be a successful executive solely relying on Magic 8 Ball and Google Fight. 19:20:05 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-138-123.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 19:21:15 tmh: You'll have to define "successful executive" carefully for that to work. 19:21:18 what about I Ching? 19:21:23 ShadowChild [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 19:21:28 demmeln1 [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 19:22:12 also, Slime also wins a google fight against Mucus 19:22:38 is there a lisp interaction mode called mucus? 19:22:43 Because if so, ew 19:22:47 ... "SLIME Network Operations Toolkit"? 19:22:48 slime is QUITE bad enough :) 19:23:20 rsynnott: "Metaprogramming Utility Code Using SLIME"? 19:23:31 -!- demmeln [~Adium@2001:4ca0:0:f202:21c:b3ff:fec4:57d3] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:23:34 -!- dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:24:19 "Programmable Higher-order Lisp Embeddable Geometry Manager"? 19:24:30 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:24:30 nyef: that'd be "Using SWANK", but still good (: 19:25:05 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad86 19:25:06 I could continue along this vein, but I'm sure that some people would prefer to keep what's left of their appetite. 19:25:22 -!- cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]] 19:26:18 *stassats* writes down, in case he would need to come up with a software name 19:26:20 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:27:00 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:27:27 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:27:47 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@domina.ee] has joined #lisp 19:28:54 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 19:30:36 for information: swank was originally "skank" 19:30:47 :D 19:30:54 *Fade* chuckles 19:31:05 i always read skank when i read swank. so... 19:31:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:34:24 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:34:58 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:35:09 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-9-194.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:39:21 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:39:50 beach: are you here? 19:40:21 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@domina.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:41:21 morphling_ [~stefan@gssn-5f755eb5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-9-194.iburst.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 19:43:31 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e54.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:43:34 bipt` [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:41 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:15 <_deepfire> Okay, I'm mostly there with adding a dummy interface/target/core implementation to common-db. 19:45:14 Lithos_ [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:25 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:47:27 alternatively, is there a clnet admin about? 19:49:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 19:52:02 Krystof: what's up? 19:52:50 zeugma [~user@lnk2-themill-gw.binary.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:55 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 19:56:57 I'm attempting to construct a shiny new gsharp.git (instead of ye olde gsharp CVS) 19:57:06 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66d3ca-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:57:19 and basically I'd like to know what is going to happen automatically, what is going to happen via cron automatically, and what I have to do myself 19:58:13 for example: at the moment, the permissions on directories are 755; probably they ought to be 775. Should I do that myself, or is there some angel process that makes sure that that is OK? 19:58:31 similarly, is there a cron job that gets my repo visible at http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi ? 19:58:33 frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:41 or do I have to do something magical? 19:58:51 Krystof: I believe all you have to do is put the .git in project/gsharp/public_html/git/ 19:59:19 aha 19:59:41 you should set permissions yourself AFAIK... fe[nl]ix would know all the details more than i do 20:00:23 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.68.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:01:05 you should get both gitweb and git:// access having placed you repo in the right place. For http access there are usually some magic incantations one has to tell git to get it to pull over http 20:01:46 Krystof: http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2007/09/how-to-publish-git-repository.html is what i've been following for http publishing 20:02:09 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.68.101] has joined #lisp 20:02:22 thanks 20:02:33 no worries 20:02:47 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 20:03:06 -!- demmeln1 [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:03:33 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:05:45 knobo [~user@ti0073a340-0475.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:06:15 Good evening. 20:07:50 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:09:40 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-76-102-6-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 20:10:01 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:10:35 alama [~alama@a95-95-138-123.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:11:17 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 20:11:20 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14:46 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.1.120] has joined #lisp 20:15:47 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:16:03 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 20:17:36 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:17:53 lukego [~lukegorri@130.253.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 20:18:28 fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:18:51 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229242216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:20:45 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@130.253.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Client Quit] 20:21:12 aerique [~euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:21:26 -!- Lithos_ [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:21:54 -!- republican_devil [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:21:58 "Sure, it [C++] may be slightly stronger than C's type system, but that's like saying that my grandma can deadlift more than yours." 20:22:31 "My grandma and your grandma, sitting by the fire..." 20:24:47 trebor_home [~email@dslb-084-058-240-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:27 nyef: bastard! stuck in me head for weeks now, that song will be. 20:26:08 drewc: Meh. Easy to cure: Substitute an even more annoying song. 20:26:30 nyef: true enough.... "never gona give you up".... 20:26:36 FFFFUUUUUUU 20:26:57 On the other hand, since you're here, I'm about to get sucked into some sort of web development... 20:26:58 *tmh* is thankful for Pandora 20:27:38 "ring ring ring ring ring ring ring... bananaphone..." 20:28:13 Is there a lisp-on-lines starter pack or similar available? 20:28:51 -!- zoe [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:20 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:29:31 mathrick: C++'s type system is pretty expressive... it's just that it makes you write every little detail down (: 20:30:20 francogrex [~user@91.180.92.227] has joined #lisp 20:30:51 pkhuong: but calling it "strong" is a big stretch 20:30:56 nyef: beyond 'clbuild install lisp-on-lines' there's not much 20:31:17 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:31:28 nyef: and depending on what you're doing, LoL might not be the best fit right now... it's in a transitional stage :) 20:31:31 drewc: what were you using monads for, btw? 20:31:34 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:36 gonzojive_ [~red@c-24-130-129-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:41 sykopomp: continuations 20:32:12 i much prefer the monadic transformation over CPS 20:32:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:32:43 I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to be doing, other than browbeating someone into letting me use lisp. 20:33:00 well, you could use UCW without LoL... 20:33:13 and you can use LoL without UCW 20:33:18 drewc: what does LoL add, anyway? a database abstraction? 20:33:31 oh. I thought LoL was tightly coupled with ucw. 20:33:46 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:06 sykopomp: lisp on lines adds a prototype-like object description mechanism... it has nothing to do with web programming or databases. 20:34:24 -!- zeugma [~user@lnk2-themill-gw.binary.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:34:27 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-084-058-240-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:35:11 sykopomp: (description-of 'foo) => # 20:35:32 clhs descripton 20:35:33 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for descripton. 20:35:36 drewc: what's the purpose? 20:35:39 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:35:45 sounds like something out of a Transformers movie 20:35:48 Adlai: DESCRIBE, you mean? 20:35:55 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:35:56 sykopomp, no, DESCRIPTON :D 20:36:00 oh ok 20:36:26 *Adlai* is just messing around 20:36:27 trebor_home [~email@dslb-084-058-240-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:36 sykopomp: in 10 words or less? "makes programming easier" 20:38:59 drewc: too vague, obviously :) 20:39:05 Adlai: a description is similar in concept to a class, only it's not tightly bound to a particular class of objects, and describes dynamic state rather than static taxonomy. 20:39:17 sykopomp: so was the original question 20:39:42 (and only tangentially has anything do to with memory representation) 20:39:44 drewc, can you give some examples of how these are useful in web programming? 20:40:06 s/some examples/an example/ 20:40:50 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:42:36 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:11 Adlai: sure. (with-active-descriptions (editable) (display t (cons 'a 'b))) => ( really, talking about LoL is like talking about lisp to java developers... 20:45:05 it's really hard to explain the utility of, say, LAMBDA to someone who has gotten away without it for so long and is convinced they don't need it. 20:45:45 http://common-lisp.net/project/lisp-on-lines/repo/lisp-on-lines/doc/manual.html 20:46:22 drewc: teaching is hard in general. i've grown to really admire teachers who can make you subtly aware of a need and then illustrate how to fill the need while making you feel like you're discovering it and making the connections on your own. 20:48:47 Xach: indeed. Something i have not yet been able to do is come up with a soundbyte or elevator description for LoL. I have given multiple presentations and written manuals though..... it's the "explain the last 6 years of your work in one sentence, and what can it do for me!" bit that i have not mastered. 20:49:21 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:49:24 drewc: what about having a blurb that explains what problem LoL is supposed to solve? 20:51:22 because "Make drewc the most money with the least amount of effort' is not all that interesting a problem for most people. 20:51:58 drewc, on a different note, there seems to be an org-mode formatting glitch right above http://common-lisp.net/project/lisp-on-lines/repo/lisp-on-lines/doc/manual.html#sec-3.3 20:52:51 Adlai: i don't see it... what's the issue? 20:52:52 drewc: LAMBDA might be summarized by something like "Make it easier to manipulate the structure of programs by making procedures themselves data" 20:53:17 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:53:42 davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:55 drewc, the raw '#+BEGIN_SRC lisp' and the paragraph of text that looks a bit out of place in monospace ? 20:54:17 drewc: how much of LoL's utility is your in-depth knowledge of exactly how it works and how it can be adapted to solve the problems you're used to solving? 20:55:13 Krystof: 25% for certain. Is has been as high as 75% in the past, but i did actually make something useful in the end :) 20:55:23 Adlai: oh... yup 20:55:49 -!- freiksenet1 [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:07 *drewc* notes that he does not adverstise, promote, push, or claim anything for LoL beyond 'i use it'. 20:57:19 sure 20:57:34 the first step in finding an elevator pitch is being brutally honest 20:57:47 Of course, "make whoever uses it the most money with the least amount of effort" is a little more attractive to most people than "make drewc the most..." 20:58:23 nyef: the effort to learn LoL and Common lisp is not minimal. 20:58:36 nyef: i already know them, so that effort is amortized :) 21:00:06 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:08 Fair enough. 21:00:12 -!- meltingwax [~meltingwa@c-76-106-58-123.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:00:18 I should probably learn common lisp one of these days. 21:00:51 daniel [~daniel@p5082E8CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:01 -!- hoeq_ [~hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:02:23 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 21:02:29 hoeq [~hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:02:30 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082E67D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:02:50 Krystof: Is fixnum-width on 64-bit systems something that should be controllable via customize-target-features.lisp? 21:03:59 Ok, so now it's a challenge... how to describe LoL in such a way as to create a need for it. 21:04:21 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.80.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:04:33 (I'm thinking not, simply because of the nature of the parameter, but I'm also thinking that having it configurable is a good thing.) 21:05:22 Fade: you were able to figure out what LoL is and what it's good for.. non? Any insight or answers from someone for whom the system is not as natural as breathing? 21:05:41 _zenon_ [~x@h176n2fls34o1122.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:25 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-242-247.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:07:05 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-24-130-129-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 21:07:22 I would tend to say "yes", until we see whether any of the widths is strictly better than any of the others 21:07:47 but it depends how ugly the configuration becomes 21:08:18 nyef: shouldn't it be as configurable as allocation page size? 21:08:50 (for which nikodemus seems to think the current value is strictly worse than just about anything larger) 21:09:28 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:12:26 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:57 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:59 Right now I just have it set at n-fixnum-tag-bits 1, and if you want anything else you can edit src/compiler/generic/early-vm.lisp and bump it up to as much as 3. 21:13:15 But that's an unfriendly thing to ask users to do. 21:13:32 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 21:14:37 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:14:41 -!- francogrex [~user@91.180.92.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:15:12 nyef: not more so than for alloc page size (: 21:15:49 I guess the other question is if we should change the default n-fixnum-tag-bits from 3 or not. 21:16:51 drewc: I haven't used LoL yet, but I did read the (missing) manual as well as the ContextL overview I think. To me it seemed like a good way of implementing role-based web apps. (Such as a project I'm working on now where you can log in as a customer, an admin, a dentist, an agent, etc.) But that's just one application I would imagine. 21:16:57 drewc: do correct me if I'm wrong 21:17:07 re 21:17:30 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:17:40 felideon: ya, that's one excellent use case, and something i've done myself. 21:17:58 it's at least worth collecting the OAOO-configurable parameters and documenting that they are in fact OAOO 21:18:07 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 21:18:07 delYsid [~user@debian/developer/mlang] has joined #lisp 21:18:18 drewc: that's pretty much how I'm using LoL 21:18:27 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:18:41 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:19:05 ... Speaking of OAOO, what do you think of the idea of exposing TLS slot allocation from the core as a C-callable assembly routine instead of having that crazy piece of duplicate logic in dynbind.c? 21:19:33 as a context aware presentation layer. 21:19:34 ok, so how about 'a context sensitive object description and pretty printing mechanism with a focus on html output and web interactions' 21:19:50 nyef: I would make sure the change doesn't affect array access too adversely, and then make 63 bit the default (and then bind the ocaml runtime ;) 21:19:50 sounds good 21:19:53 I like that the presentation logic is sort of object agnostic. 21:20:24 nyef: sounds good re TLS slot alloc. 21:20:40 bloody 'generic context aware presentation layer' is pretty short and sweet! 21:20:43 drewc: I think that's a bit wordy. 21:20:49 Actually, how hard would it be to write the allocation logic in C? 21:20:55 the second one is better. 21:21:13 And risk a full-call-out on every dynamic bind? 21:21:33 Adlai, sykopomp "LoL is a generic context aware presentation layer" 21:21:41 :) 21:21:42 nyef: wrap that in an assembly routine. 21:22:43 where's that quote responding to a question to the effect of "what is common lisp useful for" ? 21:23:02 Question stands, as it's a potential performance sink. 21:23:16 felideon: In a slashdot comment somewhere. 21:23:42 hmm thought it was c.l.l 21:23:44 I don't see how: we can't have more than a couple thousand such call outs (: 21:23:52 True. 21:24:15 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.79.225] has joined #lisp 21:24:17 Maybe we should leave the status quo alone for a bit longer... 21:24:44 (Why the heck does the runtime need to be able to allocate TLS slots anyway?) 21:25:09 don't assume lisp on lines us only useful for html forms, input validation, cross-platform GUI systems, database interactons, terminal i/o, pretty printing, class-less OO and as a generic context-sensitive presentation layer just because these are the only things i happened to list. 21:25:16 drewc: there you go! 21:25:19 when binding stuff C-side? 21:25:37 Yes, but isn't the list of C-bindable symbols fixed? 21:25:55 Do these symbols get a TLS during genesis? 21:26:09 Can't, but they might during initial thread creation. 21:26:43 Not necessarily all of them. it *might* be useful... 21:27:10 sykopomp: i'm sure you'll be happy to know that, at its core, lol descriptions are sheeple-like prototype based constructs :) 21:27:12 -!- _zenon_ [~x@h176n2fls34o1122.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:27:13 Let's start with them all being static symbols... 21:27:49 The runtime -never- calls bind_variable() with anything other than one of the defined static symbols. 21:28:56 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:29:34 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:29:57 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:31:28 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.64.121] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:32:06 Having the logic in C would make me more confident in my tls index slot recycling patch. 21:33:54 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has joined #lisp 21:33:54 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has quit [Changing host] 21:33:54 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 21:33:56 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:34:12 -!- enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has left #lisp 21:34:19 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:40:37 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-91-200.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:40:41 NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-54-82-251-108-182.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:50 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:41:06 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-22-139.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:41:58 hello 21:44:26 fe[nl]ix: we! 21:47:18 ave Blkt 21:47:43 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:51:30 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:51:31 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:51:47 buh. there's a form closing fuskup in the middle of local-time. 21:54:15 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:06 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.169.67.37] has joined #lisp 22:01:35 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:01:48 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-91-200.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:02:14 trebor_h` [~email@dslb-084-058-225-192.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:05 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-084-058-240-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:06:24 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@9.19-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:06:45 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:11:18 Okay, I'm gone for a bit. 22:11:28 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-146-224.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Offline, at least an hour.] 22:12:18 -!- trebor_h` [~email@dslb-084-058-225-192.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:16:08 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-243-239.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:26 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 22:22:23 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:28 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:22 Fade: what do you mean by form closing fsckup? 22:32:34 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:40 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 22:33:06 erroneously closed in the middle of a long form. 22:33:14 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-209-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:54 caused the reader to choke. 22:34:23 -!- aerique [~euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 22:34:47 -!- morphling_ [~stefan@gssn-5f755eb5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:59 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:25 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:10 francogrex [~user@91.180.92.227] has joined #lisp 22:43:47 what is wrong here http://paste.lisp.org/display/95012 ? 22:44:17 I expect to have a list of (33 30 23) 22:44:37 francogrex: your variable names and function names, for one. 22:44:48 <_3b> francogrex: what does UNLESS return? 22:44:59 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:46:36 _3b: nothing it just keeps the recursive 22:47:06 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:26 <_3b> francogrex: so where do you expect that list to be? 22:48:08 I don't know I thought the aux will hold them 22:48:10 minion: tell francogrex about gentle 22:48:10 francogrex: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 22:48:14 <_3b> francogrex: ah, nevermind... your code layout is confusing 22:48:29 francogrex: chapter 8 is all about recursion 22:48:36 *_3b* thought you were passing ret to the recursive call, not returning it 22:49:10 oh, so did i 22:49:22 <_3b> francogrex: so how do you expect the recursive call to modify the results of the outer call? 22:49:44 francogrex: fix your naming and formatting is you want people to read your code! 22:49:49 if you* 22:50:41 <_3b> also, (unless (equal ... nil) -> (when ... 22:51:07 lst -> list ;) 22:51:32 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:55:34 recrest -> (maplist (lambda (sublist) (reduce #'+ sublist :key #'second)) list) for that matter, but i'm assuming this is an exercise in recursion. 22:59:44 what would it take to coerce cxml into doing "SOAP"? 22:59:52 basic WSDL processing 23:00:45 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:52 fusss: it depends what you mean by 'do SOAP' i suppose. 23:01:26 cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has joined #lisp 23:01:51 billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-23-233.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:51 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-23-233.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:01:51 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:02:02 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:22 Via what vectors can a Lisp program globally leak? I know there's symbols, properties, symbol-function etc., functions. . . . 23:02:27 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:32 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-153-159.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 23:02:51 I mean, there's a lot of places a program can leak, I'm just wondering what all the elements are 23:03:01 At the environment level 23:03:36 I'm not getting what you mean. Leak to whom? 23:03:46 User of your application? 23:03:49 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:03:58 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:32 symbols and similar are the obvious case where you can lose all references to something and not have it GCd 23:04:42 I should probably restate. An app can leak if you keep references to things. I was wondering what sneaky things I should look for in lisp, like symbols and their properties. 23:04:48 blitz__ [~blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 23:06:12 Modius: don't keep references to things you don't want to? 23:06:45 drewc: I'm stress-testing hunchentoot against a loadtester, over time ram seems to be getting eaten up. 23:06:53 drewc: Want to know what sort of things to look for. 23:06:54 Modius: Are you talking of "leaking information to the user", or "leaking in the sense that objects won't be GCed"? 23:07:02 tcr: The latter 23:07:02 ah ok the latter :-) 23:07:11 Modius: there's nothing really sneaky about these things... symbols are just objects like any other... if they are still being referenced they will not be collected 23:07:28 <_3b> the repl vars like * and slime stuff can hold on to things if you aren't careful 23:07:38 drewc: Right, and I know about symbols and am counting them up (no change) - was just wondering what other sneaky things I should look for/maybe count up as well. 23:07:46 Modius: attila wrote something in sbcl which grovels the heap and prints more detailed information about what's using memory iirc 23:08:00 tcr: Is it portable? (I'm in LW) 23:08:10 nope but LW may provide tools, too 23:08:51 a la nuSoap for PHP 23:08:52 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:09:03 Modius: well, what exactly does your program do? I mean, there are a lot of ways to reference objects in lisp 23:09:13 drewc: It passes web requests through to hunchentoot 23:09:33 drewc: I mean, it is a dumb web server that just serves back a big block of letters on a page 23:10:00 drewc: I'm trying to get a baseline of what the libraries/environment is leaking 23:10:15 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:10:18 $client = new SoapClient("foo.wsdl"); $response = $client->soapMethod(args); 23:10:21 none of these things should be leaking memory 23:10:28 Modius: would you be using regular expressions? 23:10:31 drewc: Well that's nice. But it was 23:10:40 fusss: i have no idea what any of that means :) 23:10:48 cl-ppcre can end up eating an amazing amount of memory under certain conditions 23:10:49 rsynott: I am not using regular expressions in my own code. 23:10:59 drewc: Soap calls as transparent as calling methods, my man 23:11:04 rysnott: This is a stripped do-nothing web server. 23:12:18 If you're a paying customer, I'd contact Lispworks. 23:12:21 fusss: assume i don't know what soap is beyond 'an rpc protocol that uses an overly complex xml schema'.. what is it you need to do? 23:12:30 yes it's a recursion exercises 23:12:49 -!- ziga [~user@BSN-61-9-33.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:12:50 doesn't seem too unreasonable that they have tools for this kind of stuff because I could imagine it's a non-that-uncommon thing to want 23:13:28 tcr: I've been working with LW - I already feel like a tool for having them find one issue in the code (lib code; but not THEIR code) 23:13:33 francogrex: have a good read over chapters 8+ in gentle ... he presents a model for thinking about recursion that might be useful. 23:14:09 Modius: You could write a portable groveler which starts off from symbols 23:14:49 drewc: everything at work is Soap based. Even simple HTTP APIs like google maps, we use the Soap version of them in house 23:14:56 brb 23:15:12 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 23:15:18 Right - "soap sux don't use it" does not help with a SOA environment where some nodes are by necessity in .Net or something. 23:15:38 A good soap implementation would be useful in porting such things piecemeal. 23:16:01 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 23:16:18 Modius: i am pretty sure Edi uses LW, so if hunchentoot leaks memory on every request, obvously it's eventually going to die... i suspect Edi and LW would want to know about this if you have a re-creatable test case... webservers shouldn't leak! :) 23:16:57 mega1_ [~quassel@53d828a1.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:17:02 drewc: It has to do with the way this loadtester is disconnecting - I'll get to the bottom of it. 23:17:13 drewc: Well, the first leak was to do with the way it was disconnecting 23:17:31 drewc: But I think there's something else, and I want to be able to rule out stupid stuff like symbol leaks in the underlying libraries. 23:17:49 that's still not good, trivially DOS a hunchentoot site with a malformed request? 23:18:11 drewc: It was leaking (I believe) ConnectionStreams 23:18:22 May be LW or LW Win32-only 23:18:45 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:19:25 i'm still not sure quite what you mean when you say 'leaking'.. as memory leaks, symbol leaks, and whatever was leaking ConnectionStreams and what that means seem like different things to me :) 23:19:53 drewc: At a certain level, when you run the app and the loadtester and you run out of ram they're all the same core problem (program goes byebye) 23:20:03 Now it leaks a lot slower (it'd probably last all night under assault) 23:20:15 But I added a page that would do a clean-down, and it's still leaking 23:20:22 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-125.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:21:38 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44a3eb.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:22:44 Modius: well.. no. If the app references things in some way that's part of its specified behavior, then it's not exacly 'leaking' memory... you just don't have enough. 23:23:23 drewc: If I cut the loadtester off, watch the threads go down to minimum then go to a "clean-down"-triggering page, nad the ram is higher than it was an hour ago, it's leaking 23:24:20 drewc: I know what a leak means in this context, thanks. I was asking for corners of the language where they may be hiding from casual glances at the code (I mentioned interning symbols as the kind of thing I was looking for, although yes, I'm aware of that one and I counted the symbols they're not growing) 23:24:46 i am asking what leak means in this context so i can attempt to help you.... 23:24:52 but no thanks ;) 23:25:22 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 23:26:33 Blkt` [~user@host-78-13-246-105.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 23:27:41 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-209-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:29:14 -!- francogrex [~user@91.180.92.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:29:44 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:00 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 23:30:01 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-242-247.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:30:43 to me, symbols are not a sneaky corner of the language, which is why i'm having such trouble with this. is DEFPARAMETER sneaky? DEFUN? does running a full GC have any effect at all? if the handler simply returning a string, what happens if you don't return anything? 23:31:21 You mentioned a connection stream.. are these bound to something in the global environment? 23:31:54 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:13 *fusss* runs hunchentoot on LW under a heavyish load. and it runs smoothly, at least for as long as the shareware trial period allows 23:32:19 do you bind anything to things in the global environment. Does hunchentoot have automatic session or cookie tracking that might be turned on? 23:32:59 are you using make-package, or define-conditon? defclass? storing things in :class allocated slots defstruct? 23:33:24 Do you close streams explicitly (or via a with-foo form)? 23:33:46 pkhuong: The hunchentoot library closes them explicitly 23:34:02 Oh, I thought you had gotten it down to a small test case. 23:34:11 gonzojive_ [~red@c-76-21-113-242.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:12 pkhuong : That was the original HEAVY leak - a certain shutdown case would fail in the force-output but not call the close 23:34:12 sure it's not just thread pooling? 23:34:32 i don't think any of those things are sneaky or leaky.... but they do create bindings to objects that are accessible through the global environment and therefore likely to remain in memory until explicitly deleted. 23:34:47 pkhuong: Thread count isn't growing, and shutting off the load tester, then going to a "clean down" page, stops thread activity but doesn't roll back all the ram. 23:35:07 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-209-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:27 Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:42 I'm going to press this to LW tomorrow (after I get some overnight numbers) in case the buffers or something from the underlying socket is only being partially freed up. 23:35:44 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 23:36:21 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:53 does it explicitly delete the threads? 23:37:05 drewc: I assumed thehy "run out" - they are going away. 23:37:29 I don't see it explicitly doing anything silly like kill/destroying them. 23:38:20 dnolen_ [~dnolen@pool-71-247-122-44.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:40 what do you mean 'run out'?... i'm not familiar with hunchentoots threading model. 23:38:42 -!- Phooodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:39:22 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-24-64.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:39:22 i suppose i could look... i have it installed. 23:39:23 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 23:40:49 I guess a system could have threads stick around until they're GCed or explicitly joined. 23:40:58 (dead and GCed) 23:43:32 well, i usually use a pool of worker threads, so threads never go away and of course have local bindings that might 'leak' 23:44:33 i also have code to increase the worker count and check for hung/dead workers, any of which would result in higher memory use after stress testing than before. 23:45:57 I'm seeing continuous growth though. 23:45:58 the (incf *worker-counter*) and (when *cleanup-function* (funcall *cleanup-function*)) in a #+lispworks bit in taskmaster.lisp makes me think something similar might be at work here. 23:46:30 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-209-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:46:55 Seeing if it caps off somewhere reasonable when I run it overnight will tell a story 23:47:03 Modius: are there more threads running after you stress test than before? 23:47:20 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:47:41 drewc: I've been testing on a delivered .EXE - I'd have to add that info to a page, although if Windows Task Manager can be trusted on this the thread count goes back down to 4 23:48:01 it started with 4 threads? 23:48:14 drewc: Yes, it idles with 4 23:48:25 what are they? 23:48:30 drewc: Can't see 23:49:04 drewc: I have to run now, I'll add process-dump later, and maybe slime-server 23:49:14 well, debugging from a .exe ... you think that's the best way to do this? it should exhibit the same behavior loading into a local image. 23:49:25 if it doesn't.... then you have more reason to suspect a LW bug 23:49:29 drewc:: I started this due to having weird stuff happen in the .EXE only. 23:49:37 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:42 is that true of this problem as well? 23:49:47 drewc: Then, wanted to find an enclosed bullet-proof web server as a baseline 23:50:00 So I've been running around looking for which problem to solve, and finding a new one. 23:50:19 Decided to get a LW-based hunchentoot .exe able to run indefinitely then work up from there. 23:50:37 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 23:50:43 you might want to focus on one at a time... you seem to be making more problmes for yourself than strictly neccesary 23:51:08 'debug in a remote exe that you can't modify' is a requirement that causes a lot more problems than it solves. 23:51:18 drewc: From the IDE I don't get to see the funky errors that pop out on the command line when memory gets low. 23:51:21 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:42 I was seeing "return address not in a CBO" and some memory corruption at the GC level 23:51:51 So if I go back to the IDE and those return I'm ignoring them. 23:52:17 Modius: ok, well, i'm not familiar with the product, but shouldn't you be asking your vendor how to get that information? 23:52:26 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-122-44.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:52:26 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 23:52:43 drewc: Have been. Again, was asking here to look for nobrainer things in code to avoid going to them with something that isn't inherent to their product. 23:53:00 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:53:01 no brainer: load this into a running image and test it there. 23:53:42 I gave them a self-contained dir containing a batch file that will build it from the libs in subdirectories - there's a good chance they'll figure this out. 23:53:58 I just didn't want to waste too much of their time if it's something I or a library writer did3. 23:54:34 so our time, that you didn't pay for, is free for the taking? 23:54:37 :D 23:54:51 I don't think either of you are payed to fix arbitrary app leaks. 23:54:52 economics is hard, i'm going shopping 23:55:11 I mean, user-induced app leaks. 23:55:25 Like if I was filling a package with symbols or something like that. 23:55:31 Modius: it's not exactly arbitrary if it only happens in LW on delivered .exe's 23:56:16 As mentioned, the delivered EXE is so I can see memory corruption and remove the IDE as a variable. 23:56:27 if that's not the case, then you are trying to solve the wrong problem, and wasting a lot of time. 23:56:31 davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:48 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:57:44 ok, well, since i'm not interested in this as an exercise in silly constraints, there's nothing i can do to help you here. sorry. :( 23:58:07 hi, any suggestion to test if a list contains "only nils"? (list-nilp '(nil nil nil)) => t 23:58:26 (notany #'identity list) 23:58:49 drewc: thanks 23:58:58 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-62-235.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:23 (not (apply append list)) 23:59:26 er 23:59:28 #'append 23:59:46 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]