00:02:32 -!- kib2 [~chatzilla@2a01:e35:2e49:f1c0:8d37:669c:7c63:7ad4] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [SeaMonkey 2.0.2/20100104163003]] 00:03:06 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 00:10:02 xp_prg [~xp_prg3@140a.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:49 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:49 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-61.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:11:17 fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 00:12:01 ephcon [~ephcon@student167-92.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 00:13:17 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:13:32 *bytecolor* is cycling his caffeine intake 00:14:35 lisp is frickin enormous 00:14:53 bytecolor, not really. 00:14:55 common lisp is. 00:15:18 nod, I got hooked on scheme for a while and was comparing 00:15:41 ah. 00:18:35 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:18:43 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:23:52 slyrus [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:11 Common Lisp: There's a function for that! 00:24:40 wouldn't impress anyone nowadays 00:28:41 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:29:12 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.156] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:34:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 00:35:52 maybe not the batteries, but the firmware impresses the hell out of me ;) 00:39:24 hehe 00:39:32 Its got more parenthesis as well 00:39:41 It's* 00:40:06 pity that Lisp rather won't fit into the system I'm experimenting with lately... 00:41:47 p_l, what systems? any highlights? 00:42:26 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:43:33 Guthur: 68HC11 - 8bit microcontroller with 16bit addressing. The board we are using has 32KiB of ram, some I/O, serial port and 16x2 LCD (plus Piezo Beeper, which I used to play music with) 00:45:27 aka MIT "Handyboard" 00:45:37 just reading its specs here 00:46:11 p_l: i still have my 15-year-old 68HC11 board somewhere. the programming environment was not that great. 00:46:42 is there no cross compiler for it 00:46:43 -!- tobetchi [~tobetchi@p296b0a.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:12 there's GCC, but we are using something called "Interactive C" 00:47:20 but only for first two assesments :D 00:47:55 after that, we're free to use anything we want, even if it was BlueGene/L on a blimp with a submarine nuclear reactor ;-) 00:48:10 (assuming we got all permissions ^_-) 00:48:24 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:48:29 those reactor blimp permits are tricky 00:49:02 what's the best way to install hunchentoot? asdf-install is a PITA, too many errors and warnings that require several minutes of manually choosing options 00:49:18 minion: tell brennanc about clbuild 00:49:19 brennanc: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 00:49:35 thanks 00:49:40 I'll look into that 00:53:38 hmmm.... SIOD won't fit :/ 00:54:43 How much ROM have you got 00:54:52 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:55:49 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:55:51 512k, except iirc we don't deal with the rom at all, not for some time (it would require waiting for first two assignments to pass) 00:56:10 512 is a health amount 00:56:15 healthy* 00:56:15 so for now, the rom contains Interactive-C firmware 00:56:21 ah 00:57:05 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 00:57:51 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:07:15 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-2883.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:07:34 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:54 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:09:33 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:48 -!- jockc [~jockc@dsl-206-251-71-75.dynamic.linkline.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:20:31 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:47 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:37:18 well, we've got FPGA kit we plan on using later :D 01:37:50 plus a small PC-compatible computer and propably some ARM boards :D 01:48:01 p_l: so, you'll be bootstrapping your own umbilical forth? (: 01:53:41 saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:19 I'm still looking forward to tinkering with the FPGA, even though the dev environment at uni isn't so hot 01:56:11 implementing the ANN in CL first then translating to C 01:56:42 I might train the net in the CL code, but MatLab is also a possibility 01:56:56 in/using 01:57:47 pkhuong: we are considering making a forth cpu, but a lisp-oriented cpu isn't out of the question (nothing special, just some extra support for certain operations and tagged architecture)\ 01:58:11 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:22 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:44 forth seems more achievable in a semester 01:58:45 other than that, there was this idea to load a stripped-down MMIX (only 32 registers, no fpu, no tlb) and see if we can fit two cores into FPGA :-D 01:59:13 Guthur: I know. I don't plan on making everything from scratch, though 01:59:16 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:44 semesters are too short, hehe 02:00:11 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:16 Guthur: Yeah, and I plan on forcing 4 extra subjects to get around the failure that was my first semester 02:00:20 Our lecturer was lamenting about that today 02:00:49 which year are you in? 02:01:07 (Had I known better, I'd have done more than six courses last year. But if I had tried fixing problems, I'd have to go back to second year *primary* school) 02:01:13 2nd 02:01:47 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-mimarhlixdmgxzxk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:01:57 Our uni just changed the format of the degrees I believe in that only the final year actually counts 02:01:59 Now I have to see if I can exploit the "MA1004 or GCSE" requirement for few courses 02:02:11 in B.Sc. Computing 02:02:18 yeah, but with my current situation I'd face a repeat 02:02:36 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 02:02:42 I'm sure you will pull something out of the hat 02:02:57 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-houaitwlqleuqxuk] has joined #lisp 02:02:58 just knuckle down and make sure to get the credits 02:03:56 those 4 extra courses would in theory net me the equivalent of two semesters of adv. psychology 02:04:07 (all from first year courses) 02:04:57 I might be able to fit in some more... 02:05:13 I'm hoping to do nearly all CS courses next year 02:05:16 just do enough to avoid repeat, at least 02:05:46 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:05 -!- davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:07:37 -!- moocow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:09:20 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:20 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:09:20 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:10:17 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:10:32 -!- jroes [~jroes@rube.serapio.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:12:24 jroes [~jroes@rube.serapio.org] has joined #lisp 02:13:46 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:14:09 saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:31 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 02:18:37 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:42 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:22 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:38 -!- slyrus [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:23:10 JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:00 abugosh1 [~Adium@2002:cee1:66e7:b:21b:63ff:fec5:5b19] has joined #lisp 02:25:19 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-61.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:28:37 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:28:58 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:28:58 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@84.18.242.228] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 02:30:22 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:20 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:33:59 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:35:52 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:37:13 emma [~em@cpe-72-225-241-65.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:37:13 -!- emma [~em@cpe-72-225-241-65.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:37:13 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:38:58 -!- leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1] 02:39:39 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:41:55 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:40 -!- Draggor is now known as Rawrah 02:43:52 -!- Rawrah is now known as Draggor 02:47:46 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:57 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:51:22 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-10-255.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 02:56:12 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:00:42 benasdfasdfasdfe [~benasdfas@thor.desktops.utk.edu] has joined #lisp 03:01:12 -!- xp_prg [~xp_prg3@140a.hackerdojo.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:03:51 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 03:10:23 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:36 -!- benasdfasdfasdfe [~benasdfas@thor.desktops.utk.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:01 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student167-92.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:23:04 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:26 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:24:54 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:25:17 -!- konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:26:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:27:54 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Gauss Eleminated] 03:28:16 -!- abugosh1 [~Adium@2002:cee1:66e7:b:21b:63ff:fec5:5b19] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:36:45 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-159.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 03:37:24 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7324.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:38:25 vng [~user@123.20.79.216] has joined #lisp 03:38:46 good morning #lisp 03:39:21 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 03:39:29 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:41:13 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 03:46:01 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:51:29 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 03:52:48 benny [~benny@i577A848D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:54:49 hello vng 03:55:03 tankrim [~qsvans@c-09fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:55:09 How are things going with moving your code to common-lisp.net? 03:55:16 hello beach 03:56:57 We will upload our code to common-lisp.net in a few days. Sorry for our lateness 03:57:22 vng: Not a problem. Please use a GIT repository (as opposed to CVS or SVN). 03:58:19 In vietnam, we have a big holiday in these days, Tet holiday. 03:58:23 leo2007 [~leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:58:34 Yes, I know. It starts soon, right? 03:58:44 Jooder492 [~chris@oh-71-48-66-223.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:46 beach: sure 03:58:50 hi 03:58:56 hello Jooder492 04:00:16 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 04:02:55 -!- Jooder492 [~chris@oh-71-48-66-223.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 04:03:29 Jooder492 didn't last very long. 04:03:57 ephcon [~ephcon@student167-92.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 04:05:03 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 04:05:56 I have a problem with slime. Slime doesn't work with emacs 23 on ubuntu! 04:06:10 Sure it does. I am using it here at home. 04:06:15 What appears to be the problem. 04:06:20 s/./?/ 04:06:47 Troleitor [~c8386ff7@gateway/web/freenode/x-rvkbaezyjanyjkxy] has joined #lisp 04:07:10 beach: open emacs 23, M-x slime, just sbcl works, slime does not 04:07:16 SIck of jigaboos? Join Chimpout Forum http://www.chimpout.com/forum 04:07:28 Troleitor: Go away! 04:07:38 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:07:38 vng: Oh, I am lying. I have emacs22 at home. 04:07:44 -!- Troleitor is now known as Troleador 04:08:01 Troleador: You too! 04:08:51 vng: You're probably going to need to provide more detail. 04:09:31 vng: What austinh says. I am using Emacs 23 on my laptop and SLIME is working just fine. What are the symptoms of your problem? 04:09:47 beach: yeah, slime works well in emacs 22, but it seem doesn't work in new one 04:09:51 Tired of niggers? SIck of jigaboos? Join Chimpout Forum http://www.chimpout.com/forum 04:10:06 can someone please kick this jerk? 04:10:37 -!- Troleador [~c8386ff7@gateway/web/freenode/x-rvkbaezyjanyjkxy] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:11:33 austinh: can you show me what your (add-to-list 'load-path ???) is? 04:12:00 vng: It should be the same as in emacs 22. 04:12:24 derekv [x2gz4f1iqo@c-76-112-240-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:10 beach: I've tried it, but I don't know why it doesn't work 04:13:31 vng: Here is what I do lately. I install SLIME using clbuild. Then I do a clbuild slime-configuration to see what to put in my .emacs. 04:14:17 eSROq9NH [~eSROq9NH@169.232.241.128] has joined #lisp 04:14:20 -!- eSROq9NH [~eSROq9NH@169.232.241.128] has left #lisp 04:14:22 vng: Regarding 'load-path', I use the output from ./clbuild slime-configuration 04:15:36 beach: how to install slime using clbuild, I install it according to http://www.cliki.net/SLIME-HOWTO 04:15:47 FWIW, I am using Emacs 23 on Debian, with slime and sbcl from a few days ago. 04:16:04 vng: You make things easier if you install it using clbuild. 04:16:08 vng: google clbuild and follow the instructions 04:16:16 vng: clbuild is like apt-get for Common Lisp. 04:16:30 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]] 04:16:47 vng: But we are still interested in the symptoms of your problem. 04:18:05 beach: when I install it through apt-get on ubuntu repository, it works fine. But it is not the latest version :) 04:18:12 myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-126-121.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 04:18:37 vng: That's not a good method. 04:19:09 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-149-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:12 vng: How recent is your sbcl? 04:19:28 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:34 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:19:59 austinh: sbcl 1.0.35 04:20:22 vng: So what are the symptoms again? 04:20:41 minion: logs 04:20:42 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 04:21:43 beach: It has the same :( 04:22:14 vng: I would like for you to tell me what happens when you say M-x slime in Emacs 23. Like what is the error message if any. 04:22:57 vng: did you get it from cvs? look in *inferior-lisp* buffer for messages 04:23:32 STYLE-WARNING: 04:23:33 Implicitly creating new generic function STREAM-READ-CHAR-WILL-HANG-P. 04:23:33 ; loading #P"/home/vng/.slime/fasl/2010-02-01/sbcl-1.0.35-linux-x86/swank-match.fasl" 04:23:33 ; loading #P"/home/vng/.slime/fasl/2010-02-01/sbcl-1.0.35-linux-x86/swank-rpc.fasl" 04:23:35 ; loading #P"/home/vng/.slime/fasl/2010-02-01/sbcl-1.0.35-linux-x86/swank.fasl" 04:23:39 WARNING: These Swank interfaces are unimplemented: 04:23:42 (COMMAND-LINE-ARGS DISASSEMBLE-FRAME DUP EXEC-IMAGE MAKE-FD-STREAM 04:23:45 oh well 04:23:45 SLDB-BREAK-AT-START SLDB-BREAK-ON-RETURN SOCKET-FD) 04:23:48 ;; Swank started at port: 49759. 04:23:51 49759 04:23:55 * 04:24:01 minion: tell vng about lisppaste 04:24:02 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 04:24:18 sorry about that #lisp 04:24:42 vng: how do you know that it doesn't work? 04:25:57 and the howto by your link is bad 04:26:13 vng pasted "slime doesn't work" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94610 04:26:42 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:27:16 I think i have the wrong path to slime 04:27:54 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:28:11 vng: No, it looks right. It looks like it is finding slime OK. 04:28:23 vng: what's "work" for you? you still haven't said in what way it doesn't work 04:28:47 vng: what does your slime-setup form in .emacs look like? 04:29:35 UK1N5uNI [~UK1N5uNI@s3050-193.resnet.ucla.edu] has joined #lisp 04:29:37 -!- UK1N5uNI [~UK1N5uNI@s3050-193.resnet.ucla.edu] has left #lisp 04:30:32 beach: (slime-setup 'slime-fancy) 04:30:50 hmm 04:31:01 UK1N5uNI [~UK1N5uNI@s3050-193.resnet.ucla.edu] has joined #lisp 04:31:01 it should be a list 04:31:03 -!- UK1N5uNI [~UK1N5uNI@s3050-193.resnet.ucla.edu] has left #lisp 04:31:22 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ilwnbmgfeapsucnp] has joined #lisp 04:31:34 vng: try something like (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-repl)) 04:31:50 beach: slime-fancy already includes slime-repl 04:31:56 oh, sorry. 04:31:57 UK1N5uNI [~UK1N5uNI@s3050-193.resnet.ucla.edu] has joined #lisp 04:32:03 -!- UK1N5uNI [~UK1N5uNI@s3050-193.resnet.ucla.edu] has left #lisp 04:33:04 vng: So the problem is that you don't get the normal read-eval-print loop, but you get stuck in the *inferior-lisp* buffer? 04:33:13 I thinks the wrong path to slime cause the problem 04:33:23 vng: What makes you think that? 04:33:48 what problem? 04:34:55 beach: because when I install slime through apt-get install I have the path /usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/ .It works 04:35:36 if you will keep in secret what doesn't work, we'll be unable to help 04:35:59 and if it was lost, the argument to slime-setup should be a list, (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 04:36:33 and you need to purge slime from apt, apt-get --purge remove slime cl-swank 04:36:42 It maybe ubuntu set the path to slime for me when I install it using ubuntu repository 04:36:48 -!- tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 04:36:49 vng: Here is what I suggest. Go get clbuild from common-lisp.net. Install slime using clbuild. Then type ./clbuild slime-configuration and stick the output in your .emacs. 04:36:50 lukego [~lukegorri@119.110.101.218] has joined #lisp 04:36:56 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@119.110.101.218] has quit [Client Quit] 04:37:46 stassats`: open emacs 23, M-x slime, just sbcl works, slime does not 04:38:01 vng: We need to work on your ability to describe what your problem is. 04:38:01 vng: Please do what beach says. 04:38:10 UK1N5uNI [~UK1N5uNI@s3050-193.resnet.ucla.edu] has joined #lisp 04:38:15 -!- UK1N5uNI [~UK1N5uNI@s3050-193.resnet.ucla.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:38:28 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-61.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:38:30 vng: "does not work" just isn't a good enough description of a problem. 04:38:34 beach: yeah, I will install from clbuild 04:38:48 vng: what makes you say that it doesn't work? what's slime for you? a buffer with a name "*slime-repl sbcl*"? 04:39:30 vng: did you _purge_ slime and cl-swank packages? 04:40:09 even if you install slime from clbuild, you need to purge them 04:40:21 stassats`: yeah 04:40:23 and slime config in clbuild isn't optimal either, still 04:46:28 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-221-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:03 -!- JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:48:22 myrkraverk`` [~johann@157-157-184-95.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 04:50:33 -!- lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-202-248.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:50:42 -!- myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-126-121.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:51:33 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:21 leo2007 pasted "method doc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94612 04:55:20 I got a method defined as in 94612, how to show its doc string in slime? C-c C-d d does not return that. 04:55:20 leo2007: what's that? 04:56:06 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:56:32 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:57:05 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student167-92.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:58:57 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:59:36 (documentation (find-method #'area nil '(cavity)) t) 05:01:04 attaching documentation to the generic function should be a better idea 05:01:21 stassats`: the available keys in slime only show the generic function's, right? 05:02:02 yes 05:02:49 well, whatever implementation provides 05:03:05 ok 05:03:34 myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-123-119.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 05:04:46 -!- myrkraverk`` [~johann@157-157-184-95.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:07:16 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 05:09:59 stassats`: are there any modules in contrib that are worth trying apart from fancy and asdf? 05:10:47 slime-sprof, if you're using sb-sprof 05:11:13 that sounds like something from sbcl. I am using ccl tho. 05:11:47 that's all i'm using (excluding slime-scheme) 05:12:57 jsoft_ [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 05:13:55 i see. do you use ccl and sbcl at the same time? 05:14:13 yes 05:14:49 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:15:11 BTW I recently moved to ccl64. 05:16:05 you say it like that was hard to do 05:16:35 In typical slime workflow, I imagine eventually you want to test something in a "clean" lisp instance. Do you ever try to hook up more than one in the same Emacs instance and personally manage what Slime interacts with from your source files, or just fire up a new Emacs entirely? 05:18:12 you can run arbitrary number of lisps under one slime 05:18:56 and you can switch between them! 05:19:19 stassats`: a bit hard because some of the c libraries and their dependencies have difficulty with 64bit. 05:21:40 Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:01 stassats` was just wondering if anyone *actually* tries to juggle which instance C-M-X will send your code to. 05:22:14 stassats`: yay! that was the one feature I worked on in SLIME. 05:22:30 Is there a consise way to use format to create a string? 05:22:45 (format nil ...) 05:22:49 Modius: well, if you are not juggling them at 120 HZ 05:23:19 Modius: C-c C-x n to juggle 05:23:44 gigamonkey: that will do nicely. 05:23:58 and C-c C-x c to select one from the list 05:24:26 (and i *actually* do that all the time) 05:24:59 stassats`: what is C-c C-x n bound to--it doesn't seem to be defined for me. 05:25:27 gigamonkey: it was added last week 05:25:54 Ah, there you go. I only worked on slime-list-connections a billion years ago. 05:25:59 and it's bound to slime-cycle-connections 05:26:37 the binding is new, but the function was for a while 05:27:47 minion chant 05:27:55 minion: chant 05:27:55 MORE THAN 05:28:19 gigamonkey: Hey 05:28:26 yo, wgl 05:28:28 stassats` and gigamonkey - Thanks - I've been using Lispworks for years, am forcing myself to learn the "rest of emacs". Thanks for explaining that multi-connections is viable. 05:29:04 Ran into a ruby dude that really enjoyed C@W and said that he really liked the mp3 CLOS stuff towards the end of PCL. 05:29:08 One more thing - just want to make sure - do all slime commands from source buffers talk to a single connection (that you select with other commands), or is there something that binds each source window to a connection? 05:30:23 wgl: nice. 05:30:24 This is what I gather from the manual, I just want to confirm I am interpreting it correctly. 05:31:03 Modius: sounds right to me. But I'm obviously not totally up to date. 05:31:06 So #c@w active? New book in progress? what's new in c@w-land? 05:31:45 I'm bouncing around various ideas. Maybe another book. 05:32:16 Modius: there is a default connection, but you can make a particular buffer have its own connection active 05:32:20 Lately I've been thinking about starting some sort of online+kindle+iPad+POD short book / journal publishing enterprise. 05:32:38 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:33:02 Cool. I am about to reread c@w. I am thinking of a blog post listing all the things that I learned from c@w. Given that I have been in the business for 43 years, c@w has been particularly illuminating. 05:33:02 stassats` : A source buffer ? By what command? 05:33:38 In particular, for this crowde, if there are folks who want to write something about Lisp that will be longer than your typical blog post but shorter than a book and would like to have me help them (i.e. edit it mercilessly), they should get in touch. 05:34:09 -!- shucao [~user@60.247.97.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:34:14 shucao [~user@60.247.97.97] has joined #lisp 05:34:16 i can't say offhand (i think there is none), but by setting slime-buffer-connection variable 05:34:17 wgl: yeah, I'm ocassionally appalled to see comments from people saying, "This book is boring. It's a bunch of people from long ago." 05:35:06 Interesting idea. I might be interested, but wrt CL, I am quite new. However, my main enterprise might eventually be interesting as a success story. 05:35:06 i thought about making some command to setting it, but i need this quite rarely 05:35:26 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:46 Well, I'm interested in stuff (or might be) beyond Lisp. 05:35:57 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:21 gigamonkey: I admit being a bit captivated by go, and there are these dudes that are trying to turn me on to ruby. 05:37:10 gigamonkey: clearly they haven't read Homer 05:37:32 For some people, there is no history before 1994 or so, when they turned on the internet. 05:37:47 stassats` : Yes, that seems to be it. Thanks for a peek into the advanced :) 05:39:16 myrkraverk`` [~johann@85-220-124-218.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 05:39:51 wgl: Go will attract you with syntactic similarity with languages you have used/incremental changes to same. CL will be very different. 05:40:09 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:22 Modius: as a > 20 year C programmer and > 12 year C++ programmer, I particularly appreciate go. In particular, we can get back to what I liked during the ~10 years of assembler that I did where we could do coroutines, before threads became a step backwards. 05:41:36 -!- myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-123-119.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:42:02 folks, good night ;) 05:42:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1] 05:42:50 wgl: I've got about 12 of C++ up front, and I wish I could go back and build my understanding of programming on something else. 05:43:08 Modius: In particular, the channels of go satisfy what someone said about threads/concurrent programming: you can't really do it right without specific language constructs. 05:43:49 Modius: Ah, well, my sympathies. My early angry experience with Fortran led me to a career in compilers and language design. 05:44:45 Mine led me into enterprise software writing C# and SQL/Managing with "programmers" who, in my earlier jobs, would be called "testers" 05:45:40 Double ouch. When I hear the word 'enterprise', i release the safety on my browning. 05:46:05 wgl: Hipower? You in Europe? 05:46:21 Modius: Hipower?? 05:46:25 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 05:46:57 wgl: Never mind - I won't go on a gun tangent. But "enterprise" - yeah :( 05:47:24 Modius: How did you get to CL? 05:47:43 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:44 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:47:55 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:47:57 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.224] has joined #lisp 05:47:58 "hello, my name is ..., i'm a CL programmer" 05:47:59 -!- shucao [~user@60.247.97.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48:18 This'll get flames here; but reading Paul Graham. 05:48:42 I've been learning other languages too; but still consider CL at the top wrt raw expressive power. 05:49:03 Master macros it's hard to do anything but look down when mid-complexity work or more in anything else. 05:49:57 You mentioned go. Yes, the "goroutines" may be the execution substrate you want or need. But they won't really fundamentally change how you pick apart problems as with CL 05:50:00 Modius: I understand some of the variance of opinion here. Personally, I recommend PCL, but am studying On Lisp. 05:50:56 wgl: Actually, there's little variance of opinion here without being shouted down. The (spiritual) sequel to "On Lisp", IMHO, while panned here, was real eye-opening - hardcore stuff that I do not believe could be replicated in any other language, even Scheme. 05:51:02 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:51:13 The book Let over Lambda 05:52:03 myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-123-136.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 05:53:01 Well, I am still working through On Lisp, not yet to LoL, not yet to arc. I am a bit of a language geek, but the other half of me is GSD. 05:53:31 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:21 A higher understanding of lisp (and macros) has helped me get more of an understanding of languages in general - I look at the whole thing in a different way. For example, when you can read S-Expressions well and grok them a lot of surface-syntax is factored out of how you look at languages (e.g. python-tabs) 05:54:22 did you read LiSP? 05:54:38 -!- myrkraverk`` [~johann@85-220-124-218.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:54:43 Syntax becomes just a skin over some arbitrarily selected subset of lisp or the syntax tree. 05:55:36 Tools like cl-who, or parenscript, where you just run off you html or javascript in s-expression reinforces this (I did an S-expression C++ and gave it macros and a limited closure as a macro example; but the underlying C++ still presents some limits of course) 05:56:13 What is a GSD? 05:56:39 Zhivago: Getting Done 05:57:11 Ah. 05:57:22 <_deepfire> Modius, what would you point to as an example of interesting stuff from LoL? 05:57:29 modius: Give it a while and you'll start to hit the limits of naive macros. 05:58:07 _deepfire: Chapter 6 unhygienic macros, the various combinations of macro and lambda, and the compile-time sorting stuff toward the end. 05:58:44 compile-time sorting is eye-opening? 05:58:48 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 05:58:52 Having macros and functions in the same namespace is a nuisance. 05:59:38 Much of lisp canon seems to be due to ancient efficiency hacks. 06:00:38 -!- myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-123-136.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:00:38 Zhivago: Which would you move out of the function cell, function or macro? 06:00:55 I'd get rid of 'function cells'. 06:01:10 I'd have functions and macros in separate namespaces, as compiler-macros are. 06:01:26 How would this work in practice in code? 06:01:29 That would then allow you to have macros that transform function invocations. 06:01:46 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:02:08 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:02:10 -!- derekv [x2gz4f1iqo@c-76-112-240-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:42 Getting rid of function and value cells would also allow you to actually have multiple function and value namespaces. 06:03:10 Currently there is one namespace with bifurcated values, which will bite you when you export or import names. 06:03:14 I don't grok what you mean in practice - would this be explained with a sample macro invocation, or would it mean macros would have a different role? 06:03:43 I.e. does this mean (foo 3) and (expandmacro foo <>)? 06:03:53 (function and macro expansion respectively) 06:04:08 (defmacro + (&rest b) `(+ 0 ,@b)) 06:04:19 Would then transform (+ 1 2) into (+ 0 1 2) 06:04:20 Zhivago: how is that different from compiler macros then? 06:04:38 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:04:39 stassats: compiler macros can have no effect on the meaning of the code. 06:04:42 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:04:59 stassats: They must be semantically transparent. 06:04:59 wgl: See the conversations that come up when exploring the limits of macros? Haha 06:05:30 Zhivago: what's the point in changing the meaning? 06:05:32 Zhivago, is this different from compiler macros with that restriction lifted, and a guarantee of expansion? 06:05:44 derekv [iglt0xol43@c-76-112-240-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:45 stassats: Are you familiar with AOP? 06:05:55 Zhivago: not really 06:06:03 adlai: That would be essentially equivalent, although you might want a different termination mechanism. 06:06:11 myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-125-8.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 06:06:25 adlai: Maybe yielding (values x t) if you want re-expansion or some-such. 06:06:31 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:34 Modius: I am but a simple country boy. 06:06:37 you mean other than testing the EQuality of the "code"? 06:06:38 ok 06:06:43 Zhivago: and what about recursive macros? 06:06:50 stassats: See immediately above. 06:07:25 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:07:37 Zhivago, would a macro without a corresponding function be allowed in this system? 06:07:47 adlai: Sure. 06:08:56 Put up a page with some examples of this 06:09:01 (I'm interested) 06:09:11 a page? we have no pages, only lisppaste. 06:09:20 I meant Zhivago 06:09:33 modius: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_define.htm 06:09:57 modius: The examples on that page are appropriate, although the termination semantics might want to differ. 06:10:01 Zhivago: Not compiler-macros, we all know what they are - I mean the specifics of the system you describe. 06:10:02 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:14 das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:39 As I talked with adlai, they would be equivalent except that a macro would not need to be semantically transparent, and would not need a corresponding function. 06:11:21 e.g., make compile-macro expansion compulsory and you're pretty much there. 06:11:51 Of course then you might wonder why lisp macros aren't pattern matchers ... :) 06:11:57 What then differentiates a compile-macro from a regular macro? 06:11:57 -!- Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:12:15 (Without those restrictions and properties) 06:12:17 modius: In the system I describe they would be used for regular macros. 06:12:26 Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 06:12:30 Modius, you could have a compiler macro and a function with the same name 06:12:30 Right - but is the distinction that they *can* have a function associated? 06:13:02 When both have the same name, what, in code, do you type to refer to them distinctly? Or does sharing a name mean the compiler-macro behavior we have currently? 06:14:18 (macro-function 'foo) and (fdefinition 'foo) would not be mutually exclusive 06:14:39 Understood - but when I type (foo 3) which one is invoked or being referred to? 06:14:55 Well, first you get macro-expansion. 06:15:01 I guess the macro first, and if it declined further expansion, then the funciton. 06:15:04 If that expands to (foo 3), then you'll invoke the function foo. 06:15:17 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-251.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:16:54 Aah - the environment becomes tagged with "if I see foo again it's a function as I just expanded a foo macro" 06:17:02 I mean, the lexical environment. 06:17:14 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:17:54 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:18:09 or you could use the second return value of the macro-function to request recursive expansion 06:19:12 I wonder if you could make a macrolet (for experimental purposes) which seeds the lexical environment, on a per-symbol basis, with something that could provide this information (to experiment with the concept) 06:19:19 Zhivago, what could be a benefit of this system, other than the "neatness" value of turning (+ 1 2) into (+ 0 1 2) ? 06:19:45 one benefit, I guess, is merging compiler-macros and normal macros into one primitive 06:20:13 prepending and appending zeroes is a means for matrix 06:20:13 manipulations ?!! 06:20:59 I'm guessing it opens the way for a cleaner path to having other types of functions 06:21:16 <_deepfire> Modius, are you sold on DEFMACRO! from LoL? 06:21:30 _deepfire: That's a useful thing but it's not the core of what I meant. 06:21:50 <_deepfire> Modius, absolutely, that was a tangential question.. 06:22:12 _deepfire: I mean it's not what I meant from what you'd get out of Let over Lambda 06:22:22 <_deepfire> Modius, obviously, sure 06:22:51 <_deepfire> Modius, does you know if he plans to open the rest of the book? 06:22:54 _deepfire: Having that tool kept his examples shorter/less cluttered. 06:22:57 <_deepfire> *do 06:23:08 _deepfire: I don't know much about that as I have the book I haven't kept up. 06:23:20 You can read my review on Amazon.com 06:23:37 *_deepfire* have blown his amazon allowance.. 06:24:06 I hope buying books that I don't read makes me smarter or the $200/month I spend there is going down the tubes. 06:25:05 This conversation is the thing about this language. This macro business is an edge of computer problem solving that, while we may bi*** about how the lisps solve it, is only discussable by lisp macro experts. 06:25:27 Well, if you think about AOP it is all about annotating cut-points. 06:25:55 This would allow you to use macros to annotate any function invocation. 06:25:58 hoyte... 06:26:01 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:26:19 I can't read that book because... 06:26:28 The next step would then be to allow macros to allow a shadowed macro to expand. 06:26:31 I have to go to bed. ;) 06:26:37 _deepfire: By compile-time sorting I meant the algorithm expanded at compile time. 06:26:40 Then you could annotate any macro invocation. 06:26:50 -!- Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:26:52 _deepfire: Hardcoded for every comparison. 06:27:08 Zhivago: I think you could mock this up. 06:27:18 Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:27:28 Zhivago: defmacro*, macrolet* and (function* 06:28:04 Every macro definition would have to put something into the lexical environment so that the next expansion would pick it up and do something else. 06:28:11 Well, you can do it by writing a compiler. 06:28:21 I think you could probably show it off in CL 06:28:27 Since there is no well defined first class lexical environment in CL. 06:28:42 And if you're going to do that you might as well write a new language. 06:28:55 I don't think for this level you'd have to augment-environment or anything. 06:30:00 Anyhow, if you're going to do that you might as well have macros use pattern dispatch. 06:30:12 Rather than just dispatching on the first symbol. 06:30:44 Okay - new language. Why don't you do it? 06:31:33 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:32:08 This is serious, I'm not needling you. Push the boundaries of macrology etc., there aren't many people who can (and half of them probably show up on this channel) 06:32:09 I am. 06:32:20 Nice 06:32:23 Tonijz [~tonijs@85.254.194.65] has joined #lisp 06:32:41 What I've been looking at, at the moment is getting rid of functions. 06:32:47 Just don't rip off Scheme and rename all the standard forms. 06:32:57 And just using substitution, as was originally intended. 06:33:10 In which case all you have are macros. 06:34:28 Is the underlying - how can I put this - execution core (e.g. CL's "compile to C-like assembly" or Scheme's call/cc-capable) relevant here or itself an implementation detail of what bootstrap your macros into? 06:35:04 Well, you need to halt expansion at some primitive forms. 06:35:17 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: work] 06:35:17 And those primitive forms need to embody some kind of execution environment. 06:35:30 Question 2: Will the language have first-class functions or will they be some special-case built out of primitives? 06:35:43 I am hoping not to have functions. 06:38:09 aren't functions something like run-time macros? 06:38:09 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-23-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:38:26 Well, in this regard a function is a lexical environment. 06:39:05 A function invocation would be producing an lexical environment that is enclosed directly by that lexical environment, but with additional bindings introduced for the parameters. 06:39:34 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:26 <_deepfire> Well, Doug Hoyte sure is inspired, but sometimes he's just wrong. 06:40:26 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-35-47.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:40:49 <_deepfire> For example "What defun and lambda forms actually create are procedures or, more accurately still, funcallable instances". 06:41:23 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:23 deepfire: Which part of that is wrong? 06:41:37 <_deepfire> Zhivago, the latter. 06:42:15 Well, aren't they funcallable? 06:42:21 Can't you get instances? 06:42:37 (funcall #'foo 1 2) looks pretty much like its calling an instance of something which is funcallable. 06:43:26 Of course, since funcallable instances aren't part of the standard it's hard to say that it means anything in particular. 06:43:40 <_deepfire> Zhivago, sure you can do (class-of #'foo), but that doesn't make FOO a funcallable instance. 06:43:43 But the words themselves compose to something that does not seem incorrect to me. 06:43:52 What makes something a funcallable instance? 06:44:03 Apart from being an instance that can be funcalled, that is. 06:44:47 <_deepfire> So the point is, spirit, not the letter, I see. 06:45:09 I don't know, but I wouldn't condemn him over that. 06:45:13 <_deepfire> I'm not sure how "accurate" this is, though. 06:46:25 I found the commentary on the book by people who hadn't read it quite bizarre. 06:47:49 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:48:09 The book *I* read had chapter 6 with unhygienic macros, a rebuild of a forth system in chapter 7, and a very cool example of sorting networks. Everyone else apparently read a book that was dedicated to not decorating special variables. 06:48:34 Oops Forth wasn't in chapter 7 - whatever 06:49:26 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 06:57:01 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:58:31 ,aop 06:58:52 hhuu [~hhuu@222.126.194.154] has joined #lisp 06:58:56 -!- hhuu [~hhuu@222.126.194.154] has quit [Changing host] 06:58:56 hhuu [~hhuu@opensuse/member/xwhu] has joined #lisp 06:59:08 ,,aop 07:01:02 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-251.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:01:46 you can't use a comma outside a backquote 07:02:16 :) 07:02:25 I thought AOP was the acronym for a book. 07:02:39 But...I guess there's no bot here that reads this syntax. 07:02:50 -!- Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:50 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.235] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:02:53 that's aspect oriented programming 07:03:10 yeah 07:03:11 Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:19 Trying to figure out what book you guys are referring to. 07:03:36 ryepup [~ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:50 parolang: let over lambda is the book 07:04:09 ah 07:04:16 Was just curious :) 07:05:30 -!- ryepup1 [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:06:24 -!- rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:06:47 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:07:01 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:07:42 rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 07:09:56 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 07:14:28 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:14:29 -!- rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:14:46 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-149-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:14:55 -!- vng [~user@123.20.79.216] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:15:32 -!- myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-125-8.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:21:11 myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-127-64.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 07:21:19 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.148] has joined #lisp 07:21:46 rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 07:22:43 nostoi [~nostoi@96.Red-83-50-2.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:32 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:27:05 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:28:32 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:29:13 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:31:14 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 07:32:07 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:35:55 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:37:01 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:37:02 -!- hhuu [~hhuu@opensuse/member/xwhu] has quit [Quit: hhuu] 07:39:46 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:43:01 -!- das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:44:54 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:46:36 FufieToo [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:47:04 hhuu [~hhuu@222.126.194.154] has joined #lisp 07:47:04 -!- hhuu [~hhuu@222.126.194.154] has quit [Changing host] 07:47:04 hhuu [~hhuu@opensuse/member/xwhu] has joined #lisp 07:48:16 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 07:48:39 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.235] has joined #lisp 07:50:54 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@96.Red-83-50-2.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:53:05 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:55:15 arthurschopenhau [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has joined #lisp 07:56:38 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 07:56:56 -!- arthurschopenhau [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has left #lisp 08:00:01 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:02:04 -!- Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:04:30 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:08:06 brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:42 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:14 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:50 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:06 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:04 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-183-192.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:21:06 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:22:54 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: night] 08:27:17 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:28:31 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:30:18 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754dd7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:07 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:43:56 why is it that some times when I start up hunchentoot it blocks and other times it doesn't? 08:43:57 (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:acceptor :port 4242)) 08:44:01 that is what I'm running 08:44:17 Maybe it is waiting for the port to be available? 08:44:30 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:44:49 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:44:50 I can see the default hunchentoot page so it is started 08:47:48 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:55:20 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-244-10.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:57:12 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 08:57:24 mega1 [~quassel@3e44b7ee.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:59:18 "You can compile Hunchentoot without SSL support - and thus without the need to have CL+SSL - if you add :HUNCHENTOOT-NO-SSL to *FEATURES* before you compile it. " 08:59:22 this doesn't seem to work 08:59:26 anyone else having this problem? 08:59:42 I get an error saying that it can't find libssl 09:00:19 I did a (cons :hunchentoot-no-ssl *features*) (asdf-install:install 'hunchentoot) 09:00:47 brennanc, CONS doesn't modify *FEATURES* 09:00:51 clhs push 09:00:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_push.htm 09:01:06 use that ^ 09:01:16 ahhh 09:02:16 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:02:44 yup, that did the trick, thanks 09:03:17 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:03:46 hmm, the blocking problem I mentioned earlier seems like it was something environmental 09:04:03 I was trying it on my desktop in OS X and it kept blocking, tried it in linux and I don't have that problem now 09:04:56 kib2 [~chatzilla@2a01:e35:2e49:f1c0:d559:10e3:d2f6:aa0a] has joined #lisp 09:08:25 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 09:13:51 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.233.178] has left #lisp 09:14:38 rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:52 is there a working java plugin for experimental? 09:16:17 or do I have to revert both iceweasel and java 09:16:29 HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has joined #lisp 09:17:11 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.235] has joined #lisp 09:17:50 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-108-182.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:18:36 how come I can do (require 'hunchentoot) from within slime, but if I bring up a non-slime REPL with just "sbcl" it doesn't work? 09:21:49 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:22:18 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest35310 09:23:13 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:40 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:33 jdz_ [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:27:58 brennanc, what does "doesn't work" mean? Lisppaste the error 09:28:09 minion, tell brennanc about lisppaste 09:28:21 hm. the URL is in the channel topic. 09:29:56 -!- xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:30:46 I found out I had to do (require 'asdf) before (require 'hunchentoot) 09:30:56 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-209-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:02 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:31:07 now I'm having a problem with it giving me errors about cl+ssl missing even though I told it not to install with SSL 09:31:37 right after I install it, it seems to load up fine 09:31:54 but if I quite sbcl and start up again, then do the (require 'hunchentoot) it complains about ssl 09:32:06 component :CL+SSL not found, required by # 09:32:51 is it normal to have this many problems when learning hunchentoot? 09:33:17 nothing seems to work and the stuff I'm finding online is out of date 09:33:27 only when combined with learning CL ;) 09:33:48 brennanc: Has anyone recommended clbuild to you already? 09:33:49 In the version of hunchentoot which I have, I need to (pushnew :hunchentoot-no-ssl *features*) to disable that dependency. 09:33:51 yes, I'm learning CL, hunchentoot, emacs and slime all at the same time 09:34:02 yes, I tried clbuild but found it had even more problems 09:34:05 That's before trying to load it for the first time. 09:34:18 it installed it to somewhere weird where sbcl didn't seem to be able to find it 09:34:29 brennanc, if you look at the .asd definition, you'll see that unless the feature is found when the definition is read, hunchentoot will depend on CL+SSL 09:34:47 this is the line: #-(or :lispworks :hunchentoot-no-ssl) :cl+ssl 09:35:26 you could put things like (push :hunchentoot-no-ssl *features*) in your .sbclrc 09:36:21 Perhaps it should rather use :weakly-depends-on and signal a style-warning if cl+ssl is not present, and :hunchentoot-no-ssl is not present 09:36:37 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:37:03 I'll try the .sbclrc trick 09:37:04 good morning 09:37:16 Well, I don't believe in weak dependencies, but I agree it should be in a separate hunchentoot+ssl system. 09:37:35 wonder why it's complaining about libssl though because I have it installed in /usr/lib/libssl.so 09:37:38 yeah or something like that 09:37:50 Of course, I don't have a say on things related to hunchentoot, but having released cl+ssl I feel a bit guilty about this whole situation even though it's not actually my fault. 09:38:13 I would imagine that Edi himself doesn't have this problem because he's on Lispworks, so only his users suffer from it. 09:38:29 brennanc: It is unfortune, often annoying, but getting stuff working often needs a bit of twiddling 09:39:15 brennanc: In general, once you know a bit more about Lisp, and asdf, it's annoying but mostly straightforward 09:40:03 asdf will definitely be on my list of things to go through the docs on ;) 09:41:21 gotta get to sleep, got work in the morning, thanks everyone for the help 09:41:25 brennanc: Also: It's better to come here, paste the thing you're wondering about, and try to grow a clue. "Whining" will just make people reluctant to help you 09:41:33 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:41:47 I'm thinking about making a screencast on how to install all this once I get it figured out 09:42:06 (Not that you was whining particularly much) 09:42:35 brennanc: Well the question is how helpful will that really be? In a few months, that will be part of the "out of date" online stuff you mentioned earlier 09:43:07 It might make sense to keep a log of things you tried, and how things failed for you, and what you did to overcome those problems. 09:43:37 Hopefully that could be analyzed and the situation improved upon it 09:43:51 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 09:43:53 sounds like a good idea 09:44:01 I'll keep some notes as I go through this 09:44:22 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 09:44:28 make sure to always save the specific diagnostics, too 09:44:40 night everyone 09:44:44 good night 09:45:02 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 09:45:33 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-dsbhpakpcmntecqq] has joined #lisp 09:49:18 saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:31 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 09:55:48 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:56:35 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 09:58:04 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-147-81.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:01:23 Jabberwockey [~jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 10:05:17 SOLEIL [~SOLEIL@62.92.233.82] has joined #lisp 10:05:19 http://konkurranse.ps.no/vote/208 10:05:21 -!- SOLEIL [~SOLEIL@62.92.233.82] has left #lisp 10:06:19 Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32BDF1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:19 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32BDF1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:06:20 Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 10:08:16 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 10:08:34 G'day! 10:14:26 hello spiaggia! 10:15:06 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:19:33 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:21:48 fiveop [~fiveop@g229132133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:04 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 10:32:19 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:32:21 -!- rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 10:43:00 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:44:15 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 10:46:40 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:46:47 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082DB41.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:10 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082CEE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:51:40 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:53:01 forgetting to :use :cl, priceless 10:53:38 heh 10:54:24 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-209-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:00:03 -!- jsoft_ [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:03:50 today I was asked to disclose the root password in polite company: it has letters, numbers, punctuation, and two instances of "fuck", differently capitalized. 11:04:42 nice 11:09:06 daniel [~daniel@p5082DB41.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:26 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082DB41.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:09:30 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:09:46 the whole week has been a "barbarians at the gate" thing, after i started my new job. the department lead came to me with a folder containing an inventory of our machines, just as i was printing out my own nmap network map (nothing explains a floor-wide VOIP sluggishness like nmap -T Aggressive -P0 -sT -p1-65535 192.168.1.1-255) 11:10:39 I didn't notice it before, but there's a nice eboy illustration in the November 2009 issue of National Geographic, on page 26. 11:10:49 i still think of them as a lisp story sometimes 11:11:11 eboy, a bloated lisp story 11:11:31 s/bloated/fragile/ 11:13:33 fwiw, Sydney's downtown has the highest concentration of suited, overpaid, php programmers in the world 11:13:34 fusss, -P0 is deprecated, you should use -PN 11:13:48 Adlai: neat 11:13:56 -!- hhuu [~hhuu@opensuse/member/xwhu] has quit [Quit: hhuu] 11:14:18 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:14:39 Adlai: mate, that box is all yours now :-) 11:14:49 so, which revealed more info, the department lead or nmap? :P 11:15:20 Adlai: the department lead didn't know we were seeding porn on 4 machines 11:17:12 hah 11:20:27 rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:42 Who wants to try out an early version of buildapp for sbcl? 11:22:03 not especially thrilling or new, but i think it'll be handy for at least one person (me) 11:23:18 what does it do? 11:23:26 does that mean the department lead now knows? 11:23:34 *fusss* is domesticating a new box 11:24:02 spacebat: now he knows i know 11:24:18 -!- jdz_ [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Damn cable pluggers] 11:24:20 fusss: loads stuff via load, load-system, or require, then dumps an executable image with an optional entry function. e.g. buildapp --load-system my-app --entry my-app:main --output my-app.exe 11:24:22 happily, I wasn't asked to do any PHP when I was in sydney, nor wear a suit 11:24:31 sadly, I wasn't overpaid 11:24:50 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:24:54 Xach: alright 11:25:03 that sounds nifty Xach 11:25:06 if it can build a unix daemon out of sbcl, I am sold 11:25:23 That's not in scope. 11:25:28 Xach, does that use :save-runtime-options ? 11:25:46 Adlai: yes. 11:26:01 anything SBCL-specific other than SLAD ? 11:26:07 yes, lots. 11:26:45 sorry, should mention that it's sbcl-only. 11:26:51 I'm staring down my first CLOS rabbit hole - multiple inheritance in a diamond graph 11:27:09 I guess the slots from the grandparent class will appear once 11:27:10 spacebat: newb 11:27:12 sb-ext:*posix-argv*, sb-ext:*invoke-debugger-hook*, sb-ext:run-program, and more. 11:27:13 :) 11:27:52 sounds interesting, although I don't have any use for it right now. 11:27:55 http://xach.com/tmp/buildapp.tgz is it -- should be able to unpack and "make" 11:28:10 do SBCL windows executables run on both 32bit and 64bit? 11:28:58 if you run buildapp without any options, it will show you usage info. 11:29:01 DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:29:06 64-bit executables don't run on 32-bit OS; but 32-bit work in 64-bit (usually) 11:29:22 even on Winblows 11:29:46 jdz, the latter is what I was asking about. (it doesn't work with CCL's win32 binaries) 11:29:54 Adlai: i found myself hand-writing image-dumping lisp files and using sbcl --load an awful lot. this cuts out some steps by writing the dumper file for me. 11:30:09 Adlai: you mean ccl-32 does not work in win-64? 11:31:24 jdz, I think that's the case, although I haven't done much lisping on Windows 11:34:02 jdz, see http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/WindowsNotes#Windows-specificissues 11:34:22 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 11:36:43 Adlai: yes, that truly must be an "obscure" reason 11:36:46 good nite people 11:36:48 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 11:37:23 jdz, what do you mean? 11:37:38 Adlai: just what's said in the link you gave 11:38:02 Adlai: all the 32-bit software i have run in 64 bit windows worked. including games. 11:41:38 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 11:42:01 100 downloads and counting. did it build for anyone? 11:42:36 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:46 Xach: strangely when I run make, I get dumped at the terminal sbcl prompt, so at least the final eval of (quit) isn't happening 11:42:47 *Adlai* is at work and thus not 100% focused, but yes, it builds successfully. 11:43:21 but I wouldn't trust my environment, not knowing better I've probably futzed it 11:43:23 spacebat: interesting. can you paste the transcript, if any? 11:44:36 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-61.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:44:39 Xach, random question -- shouldn't 'make clean' purge fasls too? 11:48:38 hmm paste.lisp.org isn't working for me 11:49:17 hit submit and get a blank page, no content 11:50:04 anyway there's little to see, it just does nothing and leaves me at the sbcl prompt 11:50:16 SBCL 1.0.35.1 11:54:59 Adlai: probably 11:55:12 spacebat: that's weird. it ignores all the options you're passing, like --noinform. 11:55:52 but I can run sbcl --eval "(quit)" and it does as instructed 11:55:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-183-192.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:56:22 anyway I'd not worry about it - almost certainly my bad 11:58:31 leo2007 [~leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:58:37 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 11:59:33 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:59:37 Say I have a pathname #P"/somedir/somefile.txt", I want to construct another pathname that has the same dir but points to file 'anotherfile.txt'. How to do that? 12:00:25 clhs merge-pathnames 12:00:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge_.htm 12:01:30 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:02:01 Adlai: how do you get the pathname of the parent dir? 12:02:03 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:49 (merge-pathnames #P"anotherfile.txt" #P"/somedir/somefile.txt") => #P"/somedir/anotherfile.txt" 12:04:22 ok, I misunderstood merge-pathnames. 12:05:13 In my project I can get #P"/somedir/somefile.txt" and I want to set *project-root* to the parent dir of that pathname. How to do that? 12:06:24 I use pathname-directory to get something. But does this mean every time I want to specify a file in the project-root I need to use make-pathname? 12:07:55 ah, if this is a matter of *project-root* stuff, you're probably better off fiddling around with asdf:system-definition-pathname 12:08:12 and the rest of (apropos "PATHNAME" "ASDF") 12:09:35 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-34-7.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:09:36 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DCAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:13 Adlai: the apropos seems very nice. Is it bound to some key in slime? 12:13:52 C-c C-d a 12:13:53 it seems 12:14:15 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:14:52 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:18:53 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:24:37 sebyte [~sebyte@213.229.74.8] has joined #lisp 12:26:11 can anyone confirm that the latest stable pre-compiled SBCL includes multi-threading? how to check? 12:26:25 (on linux x86) 12:27:12 try creating a thread, see if it tells you it can't 12:28:16 there's also :sb-thread on *features* 12:30:33 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-159.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:10 jdz: thanks, got it... a few months ago you had to roll your own if you wanted multi-threading - things are clearly moving quite fast 12:31:11 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:32 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-10-30.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:34:17 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-10-30.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:34 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:41:38 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:43:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:18 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:20 How to do something similar to 'touch' in shell? 12:45:40 I want to make sure a file exists. 12:46:27 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-219-47.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:47:22 man touch 12:47:23 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/touch.1.html 12:47:51 I assumed he meant in lisp.. 12:47:57 oh 12:48:00 in lisp. 12:48:13 I'm doing something like this (with-open-file (stream *qdsoa-conf* :direction :output)) 12:48:30 (close (open "/tmp/foo" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create)) 12:48:35 leo2007: you might check the :if-exists option 12:48:42 thanks 12:48:46 *:if-does-not-exist 12:49:35 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:50:02 thanks. I use file-exists-p from cl-fad to test first. 12:50:26 fe[nl]ix, even simpler, (open path :direction :probe :if-does-not-exist :create) 12:50:31 Dodek [dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:59 Adlai: and don't forget to close it 12:51:08 clhs open 12:51:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 12:51:25 oh, probe 12:51:49 sorry, missed that. learn something new every day :) 12:52:53 I am learning too. Anyway I am happy my project is moving along. 12:53:22 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:30 Talk to you later. 12:53:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1] 12:53:46 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:35 -!- Guest35310 is now known as pkhuong 13:02:38 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:03:41 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:49 -!- rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:11:29 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:12:18 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:35 leo2007 [~leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:12:44 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:14 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:14:05 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:14:42 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:02 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:19:10 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:19:53 Arcade [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 13:20:09 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:20:12 -!- Dodek [dodek@dodecki.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:21:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:23:26 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:23:42 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Gauss Eleminated] 13:23:43 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:05 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:26:52 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:09 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:27:38 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:47 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ilwnbmgfeapsucnp] has left #lisp 13:28:27 Dodek [dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:35 -!- Arcade is now known as Morbeo 13:29:27 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:31:37 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:32:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-9-248.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:35:04 Adlai: thanks, :probe is a new one for me too, and neatly solves a problem that just popped up this morning. 13:35:44 ...specifically, buildapp --output /read-only-or-missing/path/foo 13:35:47 rares [~rares@174-26-68-122.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:20 -!- myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-127-64.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:36:24 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-68-122.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 13:38:21 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:31 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:52 hmm, i guess that only solves it halfway. 13:40:30 what is Christophe Rhodes's id on this channel? 13:40:40 leo2007: Xof, usually 13:40:52 Krystof just left 13:41:09 ahh 13:41:11 you're welcome, Xach 13:41:40 myrkraverk` [~johann@157-157-183-102.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 13:41:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:42:51 minion: memo? 13:42:52 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``memo''. 13:43:00 minion: memoir? 13:43:01 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``memoir''. 13:43:21 hmm, how to leave off-line msg with minion? 13:45:49 leo2007: you can chat with minion privately. 13:46:02 try asking for help or something 13:46:04 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:51:47 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 13:58:16 leo2007, /msg minion help 14:00:17 -!- FufieToo [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:01:52 -!- leo2007 [~leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:10 PatrickMcLaren [~Patrick@ppp118-209-197-239.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:28 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:19 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 14:09:21 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:11:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:18 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:13:07 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:13:10 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 14:13:36 alan2 [~alan@41.6.122.224] has joined #lisp 14:13:55 -!- alan2 [~alan@41.6.122.224] has left #lisp 14:14:22 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44b7ee.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:16:05 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:19:11 TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:19:30 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:48 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:12 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:21:06 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:12 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:22:22 Adlai: (open path :direction :probe :if-does-not-exist :create) -- funny i just figured that out myself last night 14:23:16 (defun touch "create a file or update its time" (open path :direction :probe :if-does-not-exist :create)) =] 14:23:32 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:23:42 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:23:42 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:23:42 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:23:48 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 14:24:50 -!- PatrickMcLaren [~Patrick@ppp118-209-197-239.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: PatrickMcLaren] 14:24:58 Funny in those two statements...4 smilies, all on parts that shouldn't have been 14:26:43 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:30 derekv, I'd be surprised if that #'touch updates the file-write-date 14:29:48 -!- greboides [~greboides@201-74-170-179-sa.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:14 davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:16 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:16 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-51-95-162.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:07 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 14:33:23 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:34:35 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:21 it'd be an interesting project to make linux start with sbcl as the init process, and then build a distribution on top of that 14:37:18 instead of shells, you could start a swank client with readline support 14:40:44 hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 14:42:51 dlowe: you don't need to have sbcl as init process to do that, do you? 14:42:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:13 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:43:17 dlowe: if by "init process" you mean the process with pid 0 14:43:33 or 1 14:44:17 jdz: no, you don't *need* to have sbcl as init. 14:44:22 memechaser [~memechase@pya013000043.lancs.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:45:09 you know, the more i use lisp, the cooler it gets. 14:45:10 well, i meant for the "instead of shells" part 14:45:33 Demosthenes: and the cooler YOU get! 14:45:36 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:45:48 Xach: wow! i'm cool for using lisp! awesome! 14:45:59 now if only everyone else would recognize that fact ;] 14:46:33 Demosthenes: be sure to say stuff like "Using PHP, huh? Hah. I remember when I was that stupid." 14:46:43 substitute Java, Perl, Python, etc as needed 14:46:54 has sbcl done anything recently to improve launching lisp scripts from shell? 14:47:08 jdz: I didn't say you needed to do it. I said it'd be an interesting project 14:47:09 Demosthenes: nothing more recent than the --script option. 14:47:18 urg :P thats noisy as hell. 14:47:28 Demosthenes: you could try buildapp! 14:47:33 ? 14:47:59 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:25 i have another simple lisp script that'd ideally be launched from the shell and passed filenames as parameters , but i can't get rid of all the startup noise 14:48:40 http://xach.com/tmp/buildapp.tgz is it 14:48:43 Demosthenes: what startup noise do you get with --script? 14:48:48 (if anyone tried it earlier, this is a slight revision) 14:49:02 pkhuong: mostly lib loading 14:49:07 just that you can't cancel it 14:49:11 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:49:25 of course you can. 14:49:30 makes piping to other shell commands difficult, your output is contaminated. 14:49:30 Demosthenes: you can't? isn't all the output going to *trace-output* or *error-output* or something? 14:49:42 hold on, lemme pull up my notes of what i tried. 14:49:47 And it's not start up noise anymore when your code is executing. 14:51:54 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:19 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:13 -!- Tonijz [~tonijs@85.254.194.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:53:30 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:08 http://pastebin.com/m22ec8b3f 14:55:15 lisppaste wouldn't cooperate :P 14:55:23 i had a bunch of suggestions, and yet still noise 14:55:47 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Quit: blackened`] 14:56:32 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:56:37 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 14:56:40 Demosthenes: You want *standard-output*, and it suffices to bind it to (make-broadcast-stream) around the calls to asdf. 14:57:00 gulash [~root@81.198.243.236] has joined #lisp 14:57:26 Is there some function that generates list containing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and so on? 14:57:29 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 14:57:43 gulash: not a function, but: (loop for i from 1 to 5 collect i) 14:57:51 gulash: alexandria:iota 14:58:04 pkhuong: although looking at the source it seems that passing :verbose nil should do it itself... 14:58:16 (asdf:operate) 14:58:18 pkhuong: you mean just temporarily redirect stdout when calling asdf? i guess that'd work... 14:58:28 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:58:34 Demosthenes: or doing as jdz suggests. 14:58:53 i am passing :verbose nil 14:58:55 Demosthenes: yes. Use LET. 14:58:58 well, the code snippet pasted does it already, so that's why i wonder 14:59:00 but perhaps not to the first require 14:59:21 i only see the asdf load, not later libs, so i bet its the require 15:00:40 Xach: Yeah, I knew about loop's collect, but thought maybe there's a shortcut. 15:00:47 gulash: No. 15:01:56 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:02:57 *Adlai* cannot believe his eyes! 15:03:11 http://homelisp.ru/help/classic_funct.html#DEFUNF <-- FEXPRs !? 15:03:14 jdz: is there a way to add that :verbose to the rqeuire? 15:03:25 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:03:54 Demosthenes: no. it is an argument to asdf:operate function 15:04:15 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:35 Demosthenes: maybe there is some implementation-dependent way to do it (look what sbcl's REQUIRE does) 15:05:17 Demosthenes: or you can dump an image that contains asdf already... 15:05:27 Just wrap the call to require in a LET. 15:05:38 tcr: ping 15:05:58 fe[nl]ix: yup? 15:07:32 tcr: when the REPL is blocked, slime-autodoc doesn't work here 15:07:42 how can I fix this ? 15:07:51 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:07:52 blocked in what way? 15:08:21 let's say (sleep 30) 15:08:24 -!- sebyte [~sebyte@213.229.74.8] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1] 15:08:25 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:09:03 Adlai: your right, it does not change modification time. 15:09:44 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:02 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:10:48 Demosthenes: btw, my sbcl does not output anything when i (require :asdf) 15:10:56 jollygood [~jollygood@pool-72-65-137-254.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:48 fe[nl]ix: Hm that seems like a bug (setq slime-inhibit-pipelining nil) is a quickfix 15:11:57 http://pastebin.com/d25a80023 15:12:00 tcr: thanks 15:12:38 Demosthenes: (require :asdf) must be outside the let. 15:12:44 Adlai` [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:12:54 Demosthenes: the reader has to read the whole form before evaluating any of it, and the asdf package isn't available at that time. 15:12:56 Demosthenes: a form must be read before executing. 15:13:06 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:13:36 why does the power have to die while my laptop battery is out!? 15:13:37 pkhuong> Just wrap the call to require in a LET. 15:13:38 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 15:13:39 in short, you need to wrap the (require :asdf) separately 15:13:48 oh the eval, damn 15:14:18 duh :P 15:14:45 wow, once that require is wrapped, its silent, the :verbose nil on subsequent loads works 15:15:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:38 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:16:41 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 15:17:37 Adlai: it doesn't update the modification time nor the access time. nor does the (close (open path ... method. (so it seems if you don't do anything with the stream, somewhere along the line its not _actually_ being opened) 15:18:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:18:38 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:19:07 i added sb-posix functions for that purpose. 15:21:03 *bytecolor* takes notes 15:22:21 xach: like this? http://rosettacode.org/wiki/File/Modification_Time#Common_Lisp 15:23:02 is there a lib like perl's Date::Parse or Date::Calc for lisp? 15:23:17 derekv: yes. 15:23:24 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 15:25:22 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:29 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:32 right, i found date-calc, but not a parse 15:25:42 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 15:25:43 Demosthenes, maybe QUUX-TIME ? 15:25:47 Anybody know whether those writable windows at the SBCL workshop were regular glass or something else? 15:25:59 http://common-lisp.net/project/qitab/ 15:26:05 or net-telent-date 15:26:58 HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has joined #lisp 15:31:35 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 15:31:59 luis: probably regular glass. 15:32:25 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:38 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:32:39 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 15:33:01 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: http://b.lowh.net/billitch] 15:33:46 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-9-248.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:34:59 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-248-40.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:23 hi, i have a problem with loop in sbcl 15:35:37 clhs loop 15:35:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 15:35:50 it does not recognize the THEN token 15:36:07 billitch, there's a pastebin in the channel topic 15:37:44 ok i found my mistake trying to write the pastebin ;) 15:37:52 thank you all 15:38:08 -!- tankrim [~qsvans@c-09fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:38:10 you're welcome! 15:40:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:40:41 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:34 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 15:43:28 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 15:44:40 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:45:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:46:38 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 15:50:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:51:17 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 15:51:43 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:51:59 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:54:02 Does anyone use the dvorak layout when programming in CL? 15:54:18 I've been playing with the idea of switching to it, but dunno. 15:54:23 I do. 15:54:40 Have you found it beneficial in coding derekv? 15:54:51 I use Dvorak 15:54:51 Less then normal typing. 15:55:04 And I use a kinesis keyboard 15:55:30 TDT, I use dvorak with two modifications -- caps lock and ctrl are switched, and () and <> are switched 15:56:14 I really recommend the Kinesis Ergo or better for Emacsing - you can just drop your thumb across Ctrl-alt - it's worth the $ 15:56:18 Kinesis ergo here also 15:56:47 If those are keyboards, problem is I type on a laptop about 70% of the time I'm coding 15:56:53 Dvorak takes down the fatigue of conventional typing - you live more on the home row. I'm not sure I ever got my speed back after the switch but I can type longer. 15:57:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-197-220.vodafone.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:57:09 LiamH [~nobody@pool-151-200-241-193.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:11 On my next long trip I'm taking the keyboard and plugging it into the laptop. 15:57:18 tdt: on phone, i'll give you my assesment in a second 15:57:22 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:57:23 Yeah, my hands have been hurting a bit lately, I'm not sure if dvorak with better posture and breaks will help with that. 15:57:51 I know I look like a tard doing it but I built a habit of using pauses to do elaborate hand exercises. 15:58:12 Also, ditch the mouse and get a thumb-ball of some type (although I think laptop mitigates this.) 15:58:13 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:44 I think hand exercises saved me when on the brink of painful probelms. 15:58:44 Yeah, I tend to use almost exclusively emacs and very little mouse for everything, but yeah, a different mouse may help 15:58:51 Modius: big kensington trackballs rock! forget your lil thumb-ball, i have a giant pool ball! 15:59:12 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:59:16 -!- jollygood [~jollygood@pool-72-65-137-254.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:59:24 jewel [~jewel@41.26.1.145] has joined #lisp 15:59:45 The kinesis keyboard is a big fatigue-fighter. You get to see what torture a flat keyboard is. Even the middle-finger keys are more recessed, it's heavenly. The numbers are in reach too due to curvature, as are arrow keys 15:59:48 Demosthenes: http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-Expert-Optical-Trackball-64325/dp/B00009KH63/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1265731154&sr=8-1 <-- this is what you have? 15:59:57 All those reaches for enter/delete - gone. 16:00:03 TDT: YES 16:00:07 i adore it 16:00:17 *tmh* has used Kinesis for over 10 years. 16:00:20 i've used these since the 90's when they still had rollers 16:00:25 Greetings lispers. 16:00:33 this ones totally optical and the silly ring around the ball is the scroll wheel 16:00:42 I'll keep that in mind. Right now I'm using a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard at work, and a Apple bluetooth keyboard at home. 16:00:49 but in xmonad with great keybindings, i need no mouse except in gui apps... 16:00:50 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:01 I'm trying to standardize things as close to my laptop keybaord as possible lately, since I type on that a whole lot 16:01:06 TDT: Thanks - I may try this when my current logitech thumb wears out (I use them up) 16:01:08 TDT: i also have an original (10+ yrs old) microsoft natural keyboard 16:01:25 I just updated my Kinesis last year. The previous one had survived being filled with water dripping from the ceiling. I let it dry out and went back to work, very sturdy. 16:02:13 For mouse, I use the logitech trackman wheel, not fancy, but minimizes my movements. 16:02:16 I fiddled with pedals but you can't get the speed with them, and I like to slouch 16:02:27 tmh: Did you do anything particular to dry out your kinesis? 16:02:29 -!- blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:31 tmh and I are thinking alike there. 16:02:41 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 16:02:44 cah yes, the kinesis keyboards, heard of those....Really expensive keyboard, but I like the idea to help with fatigue 16:03:08 wgl: Nope, I dumped out the water and just left it unplugged for a day or two. 16:03:14 I balked at the maltron which is over-the-line expensive; but if kinesis didn't exist I'd pay (nearly) a grand to get this. 16:04:00 tmh: Have had a kinesis for quite a while. Spilled a tiny bit of tea on it, and doesn't look like it is going to recover. Might need to get a new one. However, if one spends all day on a keyboard, cost is justified. 16:04:06 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 16:04:39 It helps working from home too - no need to maintain 2 rigs - I look at big monitors the same way too. 16:04:44 which kinesis? 16:05:06 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:05:28 http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage_pro.htm <-- this one 16:05:31 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:05:39 http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-pro_met720x471.jpg 16:06:00 how's that work with emacs? ;] 16:06:04 Another advantage to the kinesis - while manually fully remappable, it has a built-in dvorak mode 16:06:07 It's divine with emacs 16:06:15 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@88-149-208-220.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:06:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@88-149-208-220.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Changing host] 16:06:16 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:06:30 The 2 top buttons on the left thumb are Ctrl and Alt 16:06:36 wgl: Ah, that's too bad, not sure why it didn't survive. I spilled soda on mine one time. A key stuck for a while, but eventually the soda specks worked out and it was back to normal. You might try popping off the offending key, take off the case, etc. and look for grime that you can clean. 16:06:49 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:51 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:57 Hardware keys mean you don't have to set the OS to dvorak (or deal with issues across Remote Desktop remote controlling other machines) 16:07:05 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Client Quit] 16:07:17 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:07:23 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 16:07:29 unfortunately i'd have to try one in person first 16:07:30 The "swing" required to reach keys is reduced. The (qwerty) comma key is so short I used to miss it and hit the down-arrow. 16:07:32 tmh: Well, i just retrieved it from the basement--let's see if it will boot up. 16:07:59 You can work numbers and arrows without moving your palms or even stretching your fingers. 16:08:18 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:29 Jabberwockey [~jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 16:09:29 TR2N [email@89.180.194.94] has joined #lisp 16:10:24 Ctrl-Alt - just drop your thumb across the 2 buttons. . . . 16:11:04 Nope, no 'a' or tab key. 16:11:12 Disclaimer: I *DO NOT* own stock in Kinesis. ;-) 16:11:32 wgl: That's disappointing. 16:12:00 you can configure your kinesis. Actually, there are at least three different builtin combos for those particular keys, in addition to what you may program 16:12:08 Sadly, I'm so beholden to this thing that if I had problems, and Kinesis had really bad support. . . I'd grudgingly cough up $300 and buy a new one. 16:12:18 http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_met-vs-ms-natur534x390.jpg 16:12:22 thats my keyboard! 16:12:49 the irony 16:12:54 Demosthenes, any luck with net-telent-date? quux-time? 16:13:04 I'm using the same kinesis 16:13:07 Fare: i read up on quux-time. 16:13:26 My substitute is an Avant Stellar, which is a direct descendant of the Northgate Omnikey. What it lacks in good key arrangement it makes up for in positive key action. One of the problems with the Kinesis is that the function and escape keys have less positive action, and being an emacs user, this is less than optimal. 16:13:47 wgl: meta ? 16:13:50 You need esc with Alt? 16:14:24 tmh: I may open the keyboard up later and see if I can find anything to clean out. But opening a keyboard that has been in use for a long time is, well, not pleasant. 16:14:56 wild, they make a solo you can mount to your chair arms? 16:15:11 wgl: It is, have a vacuum cleaner handy. You should also be able to pop off the keys without breaking it. I think it's worth a try. 16:15:13 Fare: I find myself using esc on occasion, but the real kicker is that the function keys, which I like to bind to emacs stuff, are too soft. 16:15:25 tmh: did both already; no joy. 16:15:47 http://www.maltron.com/maltron-kbd-dual.html <-- this is really the ultimate, and it has good function keys, and one more under the thumb. But they're like $800 16:15:48 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 16:15:59 wgl: That is the only problem with the Kinesis, the ESC and functions keys are not real usable. 16:16:18 Well, I'm adapted, but it would be better if they were real keys. 16:16:20 ESC is still semi-usable, because due to its position it's hard to miss 16:16:30 but yeah, function keys are mostly unusable 16:16:31 tmh: otherwise, it is the least stress of any keyboard I have used. 16:16:53 you could bind another key to ESC if you wanted it badly 16:16:57 I was a heavy VI user when I first got the Kinesis and the ESC key was a real problem. 16:17:00 They are too soft, and you can't easily tell how hard to hit them, whether you will get zero or two clicks. 16:17:03 e.g. caps-lock or whatever 16:17:25 milanj [~milan@93.86.187.243] has joined #lisp 16:18:13 Modius, is that a touchpad in the middle? 16:18:30 *Fare* taped a logitech trackball at the center of his kinesis 16:18:39 Fare: There's another model with a trackball in the middle http://www.maltron-usa.com/ 16:18:53 I mean http://s296498968.initial-website.com/two-hand-keyboards-1/trackball-keyboard/ 16:19:08 fare: Which trackball did you tape on? I considered but couldn't find anything small enough. 16:19:17 Fare: Was going to attempt some type of track pad. 16:19:27 Fare: Would love a pic of your setup. 16:20:09 Modius, a trackman marble 16:20:17 fits exactly 16:21:04 Fare: Would love a pic - does it "hang" off the bottom of the keyboard? 16:21:19 a little bit. Not a problem to me. 16:21:32 like, under two inches. 16:21:35 TDT: still here? 16:21:51 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.80.55] has joined #lisp 16:22:05 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: I'll be back ;-)] 16:22:12 Fare: Do you operate the ball with your thumb from near-resting position or do you move your hand fully? 16:22:14 It only took me a couple weeks to learn dvorak and within a a few months i was typing full speed. 16:22:26 derekv, same here 16:22:32 The crappy part starts when you have to go back and forth 16:22:42 Modius, I move my hand a little bit 16:22:44 It was more stressful for me but I deal with a lot of live/messenger conversations, very flustering. 16:22:54 that took years ... 16:22:56 Yeah - you give up your ability to use every other computer. 16:23:05 derekv: Can you maintain ability to type in both? 16:23:11 but 1- it's much nicer than a mouse, and 2- I don't accidentally use the mouse/pad as on my laptop. 16:23:30 Modius: yes, well, what helps me is that i rarely try to type dvorak on anything but my kinesis 16:24:00 so there is some muscle memory involved, my fingers 'know' when they are in the recessed pods 16:24:21 Yeah, still am derekv, sorry was changing modes and all to dvorak 16:24:54 derekv: I may try that - go back to qwerty on my laptop. With my remote desktopping, software dvorak is a horror anyway. 16:25:22 occasionally i try switching to dvorak on a regular keyboard (actually i initially learned on a strait keyboard, i rearranged all the caps, the one advantage of that kind) 16:25:36 i make a lot of typos that way 16:26:00 Note to observers: Kinesis is pure win; but with Dvorak, you pay a big price. 16:26:27 I just gotta avoid looking at the keyboard, not so hard..I shouldn't be anyways 16:26:41 Oh yeah - never ever look at the keyboard 16:26:57 I find it odd hearing dvorakkers talking about moving the keys. Huh? 16:27:18 If you need to see layout print one out and look at that. 16:27:23 there is a programmer's dvorak modification out there if you search, i've considered making my own 16:27:28 -!- benny [~benny@i577A848D.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:25 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:25 Modius: yea, i guess it was sortof useless since that it what i did. if you have to, put like a towel over your hands to force yourself to not look. looking at a map onscreen or printed out is ok for whatever reason 16:28:26 Function key use is uncommon; but if I were doing it again, I'd probably splurge on the maltron - it's an extravagance; but I'd probably put enough hours on it to be worth spending $500 extra for that last 10% 16:28:43 learning dvorak made me slow down for a bit, which was VERY GOOD, because I needed the slow down thenn 16:29:07 fkeys are the first to go on the kinesis, the esc key 16:29:12 if you use vi, forget it 16:29:37 well, it'll still take some years 16:29:54 and i think you can use something else 16:29:57 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as mariocc 16:29:59 -!- mariocc is now known as marioxcc 16:30:02 I'm going to wear out my Progm & F5 keys for dvorak switchover for games. 16:30:56 i wish the kinesis had som more buttons.. like maybe two more thumb buttons on each side and some buttons in the middle for remaps 16:31:07 Id I used VI (and I may relearn it for kicks) I'd remap caps to esc. Thing is, esc is far enough away that it'd defeat the purpose of the keyboard (finger reach) to use it in that loc. 16:31:25 derekv: You just described the maltron. 16:31:29 yea 16:31:55 or equivelently, i'd like a maltron made less ugly and a couple hundred less 16:32:26 i had rsi a long time ago 16:32:32 I wish I bought one back at $500. Problem is they jacked up their price as they're targeting health insurance ergo/injury purchases rather than keyboard buyers. 16:33:08 If I ever get a non-telecommute job I may splurge on the maltron for home and take the Kinesis to work. 16:35:06 dvorak and kinesis help, but i think one of the main things is that i had (and still do sometimes) the habit of leaving my hand in place and reaching with my pinkies to hit all the symbols. when I started programming, it tore my hand apart. You need to move your hand some. stretching, strengthening excersizes, breaks (stand up, move around), oh, and keep your wrists warm 16:35:31 if my hands start hurting, i put on glove inserts 16:35:47 i look like mickey mouse, but its cozy 16:35:47 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:35:57 The perfect exercise is, stop, pick up coffee mug, take a few sips, then back to work. That's called synergy, folks. 16:35:58 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:05 heh 16:36:25 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: home] 16:36:49 coffee actually not great for RSI, effects circulation 16:37:02 powerje [~Heathen79@adsl-75-60-217-193.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:21 derekv: why is inhibiting circulation desirable? 16:37:37 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:37:46 I was just kidding, I've never had RSI, I get a little pain once in a while, but nothing chronic. 16:38:18 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.26.1.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:38:21 http://www.datahand.com/ 16:38:58 so wait, wth, does the company exist or not? 16:39:27 their site had a thing like "sorry we lost our manufacturer" and hadn't been updated for like 3 years 16:40:02 problem is, i don't want to invest in learning something i can't replace 16:40:28 benny [~benny@i577A848D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:27 -!- gulash is now known as sierinjs 16:41:28 -!- sierinjs [~root@81.198.243.236] has quit [Changing host] 16:41:28 sierinjs [~root@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has joined #lisp 16:42:54 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:51 carlocci [~nes@93.37.215.24] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 -!- UnwashedMeme [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:45:53 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 16:47:32 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:49:18 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:50:24 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:50:35 Is there any online documentation for babel? 16:50:50 *derekv* stops, picks up coffee mug, takes a few sips, then goes back to work. 16:50:51 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has joined #lisp 16:51:31 derekv: :-) 16:52:02 And yes, I checked cliki and the page for the package. I even downloaded the source and tried to build the docs they come with, to no avail. 16:52:44 LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has joined #lisp 16:53:21 for dvorak and emacs -- did people just get used to that new layout or do people reconfigure emacs? 16:53:43 -!- LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has left #lisp 16:53:54 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:54:09 TDT: I went to dvorak before starting lispworks/emacs. I guess for others it would depend if you memorise your moves, in your head, in terms of letters or in terms of finger-strokes. 16:54:14 porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:27 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:55:22 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:56:10 TDT: got used to the layout 16:56:57 tobetchi [~tobetchi@p296b0a.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:59:50 i have an error that the control stack is exhausted. i'm trying a new recursive function that seems to be working appropriately, but the input list is huge, and the tail recursion should keep the resulting data to less than a 1/10th of the input list 16:59:53 I haven't really done much remapping for my keys in emacs, but i suppose if you had a good system for carrying your customizations around with you, then of course, could be a good idea 17:00:07 it mentioned something about it may be unable to optimize the tail recursion, when would that happen? 17:01:34 Demosthenes, are you using my ptc module? 17:01:40 Demosthenes, which Lisp implementation? 17:02:27 Demosthenes, are you using DEBUG 3 in SBCL or SAFETY 3 in CCL? 17:02:56 sbcl, and i was just reading that debug can inhibit tail recursion optimization 17:03:06 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:03:11 -!- memechaser [~memechase@pya013000043.lancs.ac.uk] has left #lisp 17:03:35 that had to be it! ok 17:03:40 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:44 Demosthenes, if you really on proper tail calls in what wants to be a portable program, try my ptc module. 17:03:45 i was worried because i had two tailing vars 17:03:59 damn, still filled. 17:04:03 just took longer 17:04:21 can you inspect the stack? insert a (break) ? 17:04:23 maybe i should just use a local label for recursion, and use a "pointer" into the input list... 17:04:55 maxalwings [~user@41.216.98.52] has joined #lisp 17:05:48 this ran fine in a loop, i was switching to recursion so i could control the loop index... 17:09:31 well, i can change the index in a "for on" op 17:09:47 perhaps i don't need recursion after all 17:10:44 fractali1 [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:12:14 Good evening! 17:14:08 -!- fractali1 [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:14:15 -!- fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:34 fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:42 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:17:44 oh darn, i'm using mapcar instead of loop... is there a way to skip an item with mapcar? 17:18:42 you can skip forward on loop by changing your index, (loop for x on '(1 2 3 4) when (= (car x) 2) do (setf x (cdr x)) do (print x)) 17:20:12 -!- milanj [~milan@93.86.187.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:20:28 Demosthenes: That doesn't look like a good way of doing it. 17:20:53 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:21:48 rather (loop for x on '(1 2 3 4) unless (= (car x) 2) do (print x)) 17:22:05 mega1 [~quassel@3e44b7ee.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 17:23:44 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 17:24:37 beach: no, i'm trying to detect the next record, process it too, and change the pointer to skip it... 17:25:04 milanj [~milan@109.93.81.10] has joined #lisp 17:25:06 Demosthenes: mapcan is one way to produce fewer items in the output than you have in the input. 17:25:25 i think the key is i'm trying to selectively skip ahead in input 17:25:39 Demosthenes: you may want to see the recent c.l.l thread about concatenating adjacent strings 17:25:40 recursion was appealling because i could process as many items and then pass the "next" to the next call 17:25:43 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:46 TDT: late answer, but try looking up the ergoemacs keybings package. i use it since going fully-dvorak and haven't looked back. 17:26:20 stupid split-line records :P why they wanted to wrap i'll never know, but i have to deal with it :P 17:26:25 gwynddyllyd: ergoemacs? 17:26:37 Demosthenes: you can use the "stream" approach, popping elements off a list as you go 17:26:54 this is one i don't know... any suggest reading? 17:27:21 didn't I just suggest a c.l.l thread? 17:27:31 record? pointer? is this still lisp?! 17:27:36 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:06 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-dsbhpakpcmntecqq] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:28:11 adeht: just found on google groups. thx 17:28:37 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 17:29:11 sykopomp: yes. it redefines movement and common editing keys to the homerow on a very comfortable position. there are also qwerty and colemak keybindings in the package, but i don't use them. 17:29:35 sykopomp: let me find the webpage... 17:30:09 sykopomp: http://xahlee.org/emacs/ergonomic_emacs_keybinding.html 17:30:56 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:39 gwynddyllyd: k thanks 17:34:24 adeht: holy smokes! those are some monsterous solutions 17:35:16 -!- marioxcc-AFK [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:35:55 monsterous how? 17:36:05 verbosity ;] 17:37:24 some of the verbosity comes from trying to be efficient (matching and processing as many adjacent strings as possible) 17:37:29 UnwashedMeme [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 17:37:47 which may not be relevant to your case 17:38:45 i think Ole's example was best 17:39:35 on the other hand, i hit the stack ceiling with recursion, so i may have to cheat and use loop 17:42:40 what do you think about Frode's solution? 17:43:35 Demosthenes, are you using tail-recursion and the PTC package? 17:43:44 if so, you shouldn't be hitting any stack ceiling. 17:44:50 Fare: where is PTC? 17:45:30 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:46:07 http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/frideau/ptc.git 17:46:14 or one second I read 'Fare: Fare: where is PTC?' and thought 'this is some impressive AI'... 17:46:21 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754dd7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:31 s/or/for 17:47:35 (actually, I don't think the SPEED 3 is really needed in SBCL) 17:49:03 I'm pretty sure it isn't. 17:49:17 But disassembling without it gives me a headache. 17:50:49 gwynddyllyd: heh 17:50:51 Fare: thanks 17:51:34 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:51:36 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:53:29 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:53:38 brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has joined #lisp 17:53:42 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:56:05 slyrus [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:36 alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-1092.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:58:02 pkhuong, I wonder why "The Cost of Obstruction-Freedom" has a score of 0 on /r/systems. What did you think of the paper? 17:58:55 stassats [~stassats@178.66.7.131] has joined #lisp 17:58:56 -!- stassats [~stassats@178.66.7.131] has quit [Changing host] 17:58:56 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:59:00 rickmode_ [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:02 adeht: i like Frode's too, but he used loop... 17:59:06 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 17:59:09 so what? 17:59:13 i try to avoid loop at times, its not "lispy" 17:59:19 now iterate, iterate's lispy ;] 17:59:24 haven't really used it much thouh 17:59:25 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:59:25 -!- rickmode_ is now known as rickmode 17:59:28 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:35 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:59:46 Demosthenes: that's silly 17:59:53 i hear its a common argument 18:00:10 loop is a macro written by lazy lispers to help other lazy lispers be lazy. how is that not lispy? 18:00:21 argumentum ad populum 18:01:02 its an abrupt change in notation... 18:01:16 anyway, i do use it, but normally i exhaust other possibilities first 18:01:24 you're missing the content for the form (yay for puns) 18:01:36 skateenjoi003 [~skateenjo@190.154.247.13] has joined #lisp 18:01:54 -!- skateenjoi003 [~skateenjo@190.154.247.13] has quit [Client Quit] 18:02:28 though that collect by pops is cleaner than modifying the index into a for on loop. 18:02:57 what's a collect by pops? should I check logs? 18:03:26 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/1f5d7dcf1f9d88e9 18:03:30 /Frode/ 18:04:27 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 18:04:29 ah this thread 18:08:06 really, collect by pop was the same as the recursion... :P 18:08:15 just less stack heavy 18:08:53 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:09:07 can hunchentoot listen on a unix domain socket instead of a TCP/IP socket? 18:09:55 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:09:59 can usocket? 18:10:03 hello 18:10:42 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 18:11:24 stassats: I'm not sure what you are asking. Can you rephrase? 18:11:41 brennanc: hunchentoot uses usocket 18:11:43 hello. has somebody deal with multithreaded cl+ssl? 18:12:06 minion: usocket? 18:12:08 usocket: usocket is an MIT-licensed sockets networking library providing a portability layer encapsulating implementation specific sockets programming details. http://www.cliki.net/usocket 18:12:45 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:13:11 -!- maxalwings [~user@41.216.98.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:39 does that mean it can or can't? 18:13:47 -!- gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:14:09 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:14:15 brennanc: My impression is if usocket does it, you can make hunchentoot do it by hacking the hunchentoot code a bit. 18:14:42 -!- malsyned [~malsyned@24.151.76.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:15:05 if usocket doesn't, you'd need to hack a little bit more 18:17:12 hmm, I'm looking to have nginx forward requests on to lisp but I'd like to avoid TCP/IP sockets because the socket lingering is taking up a lot of memory that is just wasted. Do you think I should look into something besides hunchentoot for that, like fastcgi? 18:17:13 anyone else notice alot of screen refresh flicker with slime + emacs 18:17:40 brennanc: I use nginx and hunchentoot with great success. I've never had any problems with socket lingering and memory. 18:18:10 brennanc: sounds like you're doing premature optimization 18:18:50 we're doing around 600k uniques a day 18:19:48 currently we're using nginx with php-fastcgi but I'm doing some research to see if we can switch to something better like lisp 18:19:57 brennanc: I will gladly add unix domain socket support to your setup for a very modest fee! 18:20:52 brennanc: The memory problem you're seeing doesn't involve Lisp yet? 18:21:00 xach: what's your contact info. I'll keep that in mind if we decide to go that route. 18:21:03 http://www.mail-archive.com/usocket-devel@common-lisp.net/msg00078.html 18:21:10 brennanc: I'm xach@xach.com. 18:21:13 looks like a simple patch 18:21:29 no, it has to do with the linux kernel and TCP/IP sockets. 18:21:31 Fade: Are you *trying* to starve my kids, or what? 18:21:44 even when the connection is closed it keeps information about the connections around for a little bit 18:21:55 sorry, the lookup was dispatched before you had a deal. :) 18:22:38 brennanc: Ah. My site doesn't have enough volume to cause any problems with that. 18:23:06 dnolen [~dnolen@65.217.189.98] has joined #lisp 18:28:38 YamNad [~YamNad1@91.84.41.221] has joined #lisp 18:30:58 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:34 saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:45 attila_lendvai_ [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:36:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:37:27 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 18:42:32 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-23-84.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:43:14 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:44:29 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-35-47.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:45:06 koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 18:45:17 HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has joined #lisp 18:45:22 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:34 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:49:18 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-30.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:51:58 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 18:52:01 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DCAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:52:17 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DCAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:09 attila_lendvai: is hu.dwim.build source available? 18:54:10 oh, i see, there it is. 18:56:10 *levente_meszaros* quickly changes the licence ;) 18:56:56 actually, i thought i could see it via google, but it won't load the site. where do you recommend I look? 19:00:10 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:00 adeht pasted "collecting macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94651 19:02:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-26.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:02:40 Demosthenes: a bit of playing around 19:03:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:04:22 Xach, the site is down at the moment... every now and then by some reason the whole virtual server goes down and becomes unresponsive 19:04:50 but in fact you are right, you could see the file at http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.build/source/build.lisp 19:04:53 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:05:20 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 19:05:40 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 19:06:23 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-214-146.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:07:08 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:08:53 ajazz [~ajazz@pool-95-83-74-197.ptcomm.ru] has joined #lisp 19:08:56 -!- ajazz [~ajazz@pool-95-83-74-197.ptcomm.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 19:11:01 adeht: ? 19:11:13 Demosthenes: check that paste 19:11:19 So I just read chapter 22 of *Practical Common Lisp*, *LOOP for Black Belts*.... Is it me or does the LOOP language feel like COBOL? Trying to make it look like English is cute, but feels overly verbose. 19:11:27 rickmode: Just you. 19:12:39 adeht: nice. i think i just reached the point where i give up on recursion and use collect pop 19:13:37 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-234-14.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:15:01 My only gripe with LOOP is that it doesn't have good indentation support in emacs. 19:15:31 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-68-163.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:42 Arcade [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 19:16:10 tmh: are you using the slime-indentation contrib? 19:16:11 tmh: tcr's presentation gives a few suggestions that have worked for me. 19:16:50 rickmode: how much LOOP using code have you written? 19:16:51 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:16:58 How much COBOL? 19:17:03 drewc: Nope, will look into it. Xach: Haven't seen that, what should I use to find it in Google? 19:17:12 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 19:18:23 tmh: i just use the 'hit return after LOOP and line up the keywords underneath' technique, and completely ignore the complex cases like :if 19:18:26 tmh: http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/2008/12/last-wednesday-i-gave-talk-to-munich.html 19:19:07 404 19:19:08 Gah! The PDF is no longer on the server. 19:19:10 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 19:19:36 Ok, you can still get it, just a bad link. 19:19:37 oops. i think i have it. 19:19:53 http://xach.com/tmp/slime-talk-2008.pdf is my copy 19:19:54 http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/talks/ 19:20:00 It's in there 19:20:25 -!- Arcade [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:20:33 Never underestimate the power of editing URLs by hand. :-) 19:20:42 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-212-97.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:17 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:21:21 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 19:21:26 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 19:21:29 according to http://typealyzer.com, lisper bloggers (on planet lisp) are of type: Mechanics. 19:21:33 "limp for vim"!? 19:21:35 bwahahahaha 19:21:48 drewc: my comment was off the cuff. I say "COBOL" because that language was meant to be human readable (by non-programmers) but just ended up being verbose (though I never coded in it)... as far as LOOP usage - it's as much as my actual Lisp usage: none. That said, the last language I learned, Scala, had "for comprehension" along with "map", "filter" and "reduce" which yield tight code. 19:21:51 -!- frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:22:23 s/lisper/lisp 19:22:55 rickmode: LOOP only seems verbose until you learn to use it. There are still some cases where I use DOLIST, DOTIMES, DO and friends, but the vast majority of my iteration is LOOP. 19:24:26 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 19:24:56 rickmode: the verbosity seems tolerable in the cases where a better abstraction isn't available and not worth making 19:25:03 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:25:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:25:24 sweet.. sounds like it gets the job done. 19:26:16 Arcade [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 19:27:51 Xach: I had implemented tcr's loop recommendations based on a bug report he submitted to emacs recommending that that be the default. 19:27:52 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:28:54 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:30:42 -!- Arcade [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:30:48 rickmode: does Scala eliminate unnecessary intermediate structures (e.g., like what SERIES tries to do) 19:31:40 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-34-7.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:44 adeht: not familiar with SERIES. I do know that Scala's for comprehensions and map/filter/reduce stuff causes the compiler to generate lots of code for you, so debugging becomes a pain 19:32:24 minion: tell rickmode about series 19:32:26 rickmode: have a look at series: Series is a Library for operating on series, a data structure similar to a sequence. http://www.cliki.net/series 19:32:30 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:32:46 rickmode: you know, we have MAPCAR/REMOVE-IF-NOT/REDUCE in lisp too. 19:33:43 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 19:33:52 Is there a library somewhere that does reading/printing of XML to/from lists with symbols etc.? 19:34:17 we also have TAGBODY, and in most CL's, proper Tail Call Optimization .... multi-paradigm! 19:34:35 frodef: i think s-xml does it that way. 19:35:28 drewc: seems like Lisp has just about everything but static and inferred typing... and done in a more general way than other languages (such as CLOS with defgeneric/defmethod) 19:35:34 ummm 19:35:50 we have inferred typing in SBCL 19:35:50 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 19:36:07 -!- YamNad [~YamNad1@91.84.41.221] has quit [] 19:36:10 frodef: cxml can do that (check out stp, closure-html:pt builder, etc.) 19:36:26 thanks. 19:37:18 rickmode: it's not static, of course, but the type inference engine will warn on many compile-time type errors, and generates fast native code 19:38:25 rickmode: Qi is a lisp extension with an advanced static type system comparable to Haskell, and ACL2 can be used to prove a subset of CL statically correct.... 19:39:01 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 19:39:45 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:45 YamNad [~YamNad1@91.84.41.221] has joined #lisp 19:41:23 drewc: I'm still trying to grok what we miss when using a dynamic type system. A colleague of mine argued that Lisp procedures spend time ensuring the types of formal parameters. I have yet to see this though. 19:42:14 rickmode: he's not lying, many lisp functions check types before operating. 19:42:26 ...or trap into a debugger. 19:42:55 Thus the "Static Typing vs. Strong Testing" argument, ya? 19:42:58 i always smile when i time a form that ends up in the debugger and the interactive debugger time is included in the result. 19:43:33 rickmode: in fact, i would consider it excellent practice to insert even must run time assertions than those that relate to the type of the value (note: values have types, not variables, and not functions) 19:43:44 Xach: so you don't use slime, then? 19:43:48 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:43:50 even more* 19:44:10 frodef: I do use slime. 19:44:22 rickmode: it's not what you miss, it's what you gain ;) 19:44:49 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:45:10 Xach: how do you exit the debugger such that the time form isn't also exited, then? 19:45:15 (just curious) 19:45:23 drewc: right. well as I dig into picking a web stack, i'm hoping to see some good idiomatic Lisp 19:45:52 frodef: i use "q". when the time form exits, it prints the time info. 19:45:53 rickmode: stick with bare hunchentoot, and i recommend yaclml for emitting (x)HTML 19:45:58 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-36-82-251-40-245.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:25 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-244-10.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:46:29 rickmode: or UCW if you're doing more CRUD-like applications with a lot of state 19:47:02 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-36-82-251-40-245.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: mathk] 19:47:16 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-30.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:47:21 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-36-82-251-40-245.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:23 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-149-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:31 drewc: are the two compatible? I actually intend to build both - a web UI for humans (CRUD stuff) and a API for iPhone (RESTful or RESTful-like) 19:47:40 rickmode: often applications require some sort of dynamicity.. you can come to it from either direction 19:47:52 rickmode: for databases, use rucksack if you want an OODB, postgresql + postmodern (+ relational-objects-for-lisp) if you want an RDBMS. 19:48:01 jdz [~jdz@84.237.142.223] has joined #lisp 19:48:28 Xach: indeed it does! :) .. because time prints the info in an unwind-protect, which surprised me. 19:48:42 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48:44 drewc: I'm also hoping for a slick s-expr based data protocol that an iPhone can parse 19:48:51 hey drewc 19:49:07 rickmode: it's always a set of tradeoffs.. CL is not maximally dynamic so it can stay efficient.. Haskell is not maximally static so it can stay useful 19:49:47 Interesting.. seems to me the spec doesn't specify what time should do if the form doesn't exit normally. 19:49:48 rickmode: UCW can run on hunchentoot, but nobody has actually done the (trivial) work to make it so. UCW can do REST stuff itself, so if you're using it anyway hunchentoot adds little. However, if you build in hunchentoot first you can plug UCW in later.... i'll even show you how if it comes up :) 19:50:00 hey gigamonkey , how's gigabot? 19:50:20 good. He now groks punctuation and doesn't smash case anymore. 19:50:22 frodef: it reminds me of the idea of running a webserver by hand instead of letting a program do it. 19:50:50 Xach: sorry? you lost me.. 19:51:07 kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:20 gigamonkey: i hope he still expands contractions... i found that charming :) 19:51:42 frodef: it's just that i normally expect TIME to report on work the machine is doing, not work I am lazily doing interactively. 19:51:50 Sorry, that went out the window when I changed the way he understands contractions. 19:52:24 Though I suppose I could put that back in as a feature. 19:52:33 Xach: oh, sure. But most lisps' TIME reports both CPU time and wall-clock time, no? 19:52:53 gigamonkey: ah well, probably not worth it. 19:53:07 frodef: that doesn't affect my whimsical interpretation of the output! 19:53:21 gigabot [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-149-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:39 gigabot: static or dynamic? 19:56:39 Sorry, my brain is still under construction. 19:56:44 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:56:55 adeht: *I* don't even understand that. 19:57:16 static scope, dynamic types! 19:57:39 gigamonkey: just have it randomly choose one of the alternatives ;) 19:58:02 but, sometimes dynamic scope and static types... 19:58:04 gigamonkey: (or Neither) 19:58:13 -!- frender [~fredrick@c83-249-82-76.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:24 faux` [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:58:50 prxq [~mommer@g227067042.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:59:04 hi 19:59:11 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:02 gigabot: static or dynamic? 20:00:02 Static 20:00:08 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:00:09 gigabot: chocolate or vanilla? 20:00:09 Chocolate 20:00:24 gigabot: scheme or lisp? 20:00:24 Scheme 20:00:25 there you go adeht 20:00:27 gah! 20:00:30 always the first one? 20:00:33 gigabot: to be or not to be? 20:00:33 To Be 20:00:34 shouldn't be. 20:00:50 should not to be, then. 20:00:50 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:01:07 nope, it sometimes gets the second. 20:01:27 Xach was punning, methinks 20:01:33 gigamonkey: well, "to be" is a nice answer. 20:01:45 gigamonkey: maybe something like: "Why ask me these questions?" or "How do you feel about scheme and lisp?" 20:01:59 that sounds like Eliza 20:02:21 minion: scheme or lisp? 20:02:22 scheme is the root of all evil 20:02:24 stassats: Exactly - perhaps random question require therapy 20:02:38 modern chatbots are just glorified Elizas 20:02:51 iirc 20:03:11 gigabot: are you a bot? 20:03:12 Nope, I'm a pile of kludges piled on top of an ugly hack. 20:03:26 prxq: see 20:03:28 prxq: Alice (the AIML bot) gets really upset when you compare her to eliza :) 20:05:49 gigabot: a or b or c? 20:05:50 C? 20:06:08 heh. greed match. 20:06:09 gigabot: a or (b or c)? 20:06:09 C)? 20:06:11 greedy 20:06:12 -!- faux` [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 20:06:12 :) 20:06:33 gigabot: a xor b 20:06:33 Pardon? 20:06:52 gigabot: red and blue? 20:06:52 Sorry, my brain is still under construction. 20:07:14 maybe more revealing was "a or b and c" 20:07:20 This jaded IRC user doesn't find much novelty in bot construction. 20:07:24 Or abuse. 20:07:38 Yeah, time for gigabot to go home to #gigabot. If you want to play with him, he'll be there. 20:07:43 -!- gigabot [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-149-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc] 20:08:00 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:07 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 20:08:51 gigabot: now (to forebare for ever solittle of Iris Trees and Lili O'Rangans), concerning the genesis of Harold or Humphrey Chimpden's occupational agnomen (we are back in the presurnames prodromarith period, of course just when enos chalked halltraps). 20:08:59 awwww 20:10:28 Hun [~hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:00 I'm installing hunchentoot via ASDF into SBCL (1.0.29 on mac os x). It complains about missing GPG keys for every package (GPG warns that the key id 0xNIL () is not fully trusted). Am I doing something horribly wrong or is this normal? 20:12:53 that's not asdf, but asdf-install 20:13:07 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 20:13:26 stassats: yes... sorry ... (asdf-install:install :hunchentoot) 20:13:35 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:51 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-54.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:14:46 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44b7ee.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:15:34 mega1 [~quassel@3e44b7ee.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:16:05 rickmode: did you add the developers' keys to your gpg keyring? 20:16:11 rickmode: and trust them? 20:16:52 konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has joined #lisp 20:17:22 -!- YamNad [~YamNad1@91.84.41.221] has quit [] 20:17:28 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-146-224.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:32 Hello all. 20:17:58 Xach: Hmmmmm.... no... I'll look into that 20:19:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 20:19:38 nowhereman [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:46 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:21:28 Xach (or whomever): would be nice if the asdf tutorial mentioned this. In any case it seems like a public key system would be more user friendly. 20:23:06 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:23:47 rickmode: it is using a public key system. 20:23:55 i wish i could go back in time and tell the person who was about to release ASDF-INSTALL to name it something else. 20:24:15 net.telent.enduring-wart 20:24:32 Does anyone have a set of v4l bindings for SBCL yet, or should I push that to my pending-projects list? 20:24:37 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:25:15 nyef: If you're accepting requests for your pending-projects list, may I add some? ;-) 20:26:07 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:24 tmh: What do you have in mind, and what incentive do you offer? 20:26:30 jtza8_ [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-73-247.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:26:32 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:26:46 pkhuong, pvk.ca seems to be down 20:27:14 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:27:49 Fare: box is dead. I'm working on a solution. 20:28:09 nyef: I have many projects sketched out. Unfortunately, the only incentive is "Fame & Glory"(tm). 20:28:24 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:28:34 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:29:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-26.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:29:56 I'm not against funding a project, I just don't have the funds at the moment. 20:30:07 Fair enough. 20:30:52 quack [~quack@213.13.201.118] has joined #lisp 20:31:01 quack_ [~quack@213.13.201.118] has joined #lisp 20:31:38 any channel admin around ? 20:31:47 -!- quack [~quack@213.13.201.118] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:47 nyef: do you have the expertise to write a new GC for sbcl? One that scales on multicore platforms? 20:31:52 fe[nl]ix: what qualifies as a channel admin? 20:32:07 prxq: define scaling. 20:32:41 -!- DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-61-202.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:33:06 -!- quack_ [~quack@213.13.201.118] has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:09 Xach: after switching server, the channel topic can only be changed by channel operators 20:33:53 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:34:42 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 20:35:31 pkhuong: scaling in this context means to me that you actually can get some speed benefit from using additional cores. 20:36:03 as it stands now, everything ends up running on one core, and i think the evidence points toward this being a GC issue 20:36:17 moocow [~new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 20:36:39 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:36:43 otoh, you'll need a lot of cores to beet sbcl's single core performance on a lot of things 20:36:53 s/beet/beat 20:37:22 does it actually end up all running on one core or does it give you a load of 1? 20:37:31 I thought we established that your inner loop was GC-bound 20:37:33 fe[nl]ix: what can an admin do to help? 20:38:07 nyef: How familiar are you with the X protocol C-language Binding (XCB) http://xcb.freedesktop.org/ ? 20:38:09 in which case a parallel GC / allocator will tend to slow down your overall system 20:38:10 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:38:16 Krystof: load of 130% 20:38:21 The GC is single-threaded; everything else is fine for parallelism and concurrency. If your inner loop is GC-bound, trying to get a faster GC isn't necessarily the best solution. 20:38:28 francogrex [~user@56.143-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:38:34 Krystof: and by parallel you mean concurrent here? 20:38:44 Yeah, that's usually not so good wrt throughput. 20:38:46 yes 20:38:52 pkhuong, by any chance, did you get my question? 20:39:06 DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-7-185.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:40 sbahra: yes. No idea. 20:39:51 Ok. 20:40:01 -!- moocow [~new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:40:38 Xach: execute /flags #lisp *!*@* +t , to make the topic modifiable by anyone 20:40:46 quack [~quack@213.13.201.118] has joined #lisp 20:41:27 well, my original app wasn't consing that much, but still did not profit from parallelism nearly as much as I had hoped. That's what lead to that investigation / toy example. Boehm GC seems to do better there, and I thing clozure's GC also does better. 20:42:44 tmh: Not familiar at all, I'm afraid. 20:44:03 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:19 prxq: and what makes you think the runtime is the bottleneck here, or that the best way to improve your situation is to modify the runtime? 20:46:17 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:46:24 nyef: X protocol Common Lisp Binding (XCLB) is a project on my list of things to do. The XCB is built from XML descriptions of the X core protocol and the intention is to define XML descriptions of the extensions (DMPS,GLX,etc). I think having XCLB and being able to leverage the XML descriptions of protocols is a huge win. 20:46:47 I think we've had this discussion before. 20:46:55 pkhuong: some comparision with other systems. With eight threads I get 600% on ccl, for example, and 700% on ECL. If I do not cons, I get the 800% with sbcl, but not nearly as much if I cons. 20:47:36 pkhuong: so I think the GC is the bottleneck. 20:47:47 nyef: Yes, I recall bringing it up once. That is a project that I would consider funding using money that I currently spend on licenses. 20:47:53 My belief is actually that there would be some benefit to a common FFI-based CLX. 20:48:18 tmh: what licences ? 20:48:27 LispWorks 20:48:34 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.80.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:49:03 for starters 20:49:07 prxq: right, so, even if the bottleneck is the GC, are you sure the best way to approach your problem is to make GC faster? 20:49:11 For a couple of reasons, one of which is that it's easier to extend the bindings for things that are largely implemented client-side, and the other is that it would allow for dealing with things like direct GLX without being hamstrung by chipset driver details. 20:50:09 *p_l* found that using Xlib might be actually more useful than using CLX, sometime... 20:50:33 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:50:48 (because you can just pass certain references etc. to FFI-linked libraries 20:50:49 ) 20:51:20 Indeed. An FFI-based CLX would allow for better integration with other FFI libraries. 20:51:25 pkhuong: it does not have to be faster. It just should not interfere too much with parallelism 20:51:33 fe[nl]ix: I just checked renewal of a LispWorks license and it's not as much as I thought, a project like XCLB would obviously require more. 20:51:35 This is, of course, part of that whole "how to win big" thing. 20:51:38 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:51:48 Xach pasted "more buildapp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94659 20:52:11 nyef: in what sense "better integration" ? 20:52:52 pkhuong: if the GC is 20% slower per core, but I can use eight cores if I have them, I'm 20:52:52 fe[nl]ix: like having imlib2 available to you including letting imlib2 handle pushing the image to server 20:52:54 fe[nl]ix: in the "more free stuff brought to you by opensource fairy" sense 20:52:59 fe[nl]ix: Being able to pass an XLib Window object around (it's a pointer to an XLib data structure, not a bare window handle). 20:53:04 "better off" in some sense 20:53:35 prxq: again. How about reducing the pressure on the GC (be it by consing less or tweaking the GC to run less frequently) 20:55:15 pkhuong: consing less is not a realistic option, because I lose many of the benefits of using a language like CL. Tweaking GC - perhaps. 20:56:15 prxq: Is there a paste I can look at? 20:56:29 In my world, the point of using CL is to get something useful done. 20:57:26 pkhuong: I suppose that in your world, CL does not cons by default. 20:57:27 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:57:32 tmh: 1s 20:58:09 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 20:58:38 prxq: no, but if consing less is an effective way to achieve my objective, then I'll cons less, instead of waiting for a faster GC in order to preserve some ideal of what CL should look like. 21:00:24 prxq: Listen to pkhuong. I had some function reading data that was consing like crazy. I enclosed the function in a closure with an array buffer equal in size to one of the data records and just used that buffer over and over. Not pretty, but it got the job done. 21:00:58 tautologico [~andrei@189.71.39.181] has joined #lisp 21:01:43 is current cvs slime working? 21:01:51 yes 21:02:01 it doesn't for you? 21:02:32 it fails 1 test here, and then when I start it with M-x slime it shows the inferior-lisp buffer ok but never starts the repl buffer 21:02:44 marklarr [~user@173-30-20-80.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:06 you need (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your .emacs 21:03:10 pkhuong, tmh: I just think that sbcl would be better if it had a GC that supported parallelism better. That's what I am saying. I'm not about to migrate to C nor CCL nor anything. 21:03:26 and I am also NOT saying that sbcl sucks. Because it really does not! 21:03:38 ok, will try that 21:04:15 prxq: why not migrate to CCL, if your app works better with that ? 21:05:16 fe[nl]ix: it does not work better with CCL. sbcl's performance is really hard to beat. 21:05:16 prxq: the GC supports parallelism fine. While you're wishing for a faster or parallel GC, it's probably a better idea to reduce the pressure on the GC if you need the performance. 21:05:30 argh. Ok, whatever. 21:06:23 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.127] has joined #lisp 21:06:45 prxq: how about running multiple processes ? 21:07:43 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229132133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:07:49 -!- ryepup [~ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 21:07:53 folks. *I* don't have a performance problem, and my performance problems are not what *I* am talking about. All of this started with me asking nyef if he had the expertise for implementing such a thing. 21:08:03 PAIP: 10.4 Avoid Unnecessary Consing 21:08:25 prxq: Would your girlfriend agree with that statement? :-P 21:09:05 "thy shall not cons" 21:09:07 Hi all -- I wrote a small lisp program and saved the core (I'm using sbcl) with :executable t. I shrank the resulting executable from 44 MB to 9MB with gzexe. Is there any way to do better than this? 21:09:09 I think a GC that was more forgiving with multithreaded consing would be a good feature. 21:09:12 Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:15 stassats: that is silly 21:09:35 marklarr: possibly, but would require higher hackery 21:09:42 prxq: it's not related to multithreadedness at all. 21:09:42 stassats: "thou" 21:09:51 marklarr: (you can always try to use ECL, which produces rather small executables) 21:09:54 marklarr: use ECL or CLISP. 21:10:01 fe[nl]ix: oh, right 21:10:11 p_l, pkhuong: I'll try those 21:10:13 pkhuong: aha, so what is it related to? 21:10:36 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:10:50 and "shalt" 21:11:18 prxq: to consing? 21:11:37 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 21:12:02 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 21:12:02 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 21:12:04 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:12:07 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 21:12:31 if you want a GC that doesn't stop your other threads from using their CPU cores, it's my understanding that the best approach is to first implement a mark&sweep GC for SBCL. 21:12:48 That doesn't give you the "marking parallel to mutation" GC as such, but the best approach these days seems to be a stop-the-world copying GC for young generations, and a "mostly-parallel" mark-and-sweep GC for an old generation. 21:13:24 improving GC is sure fine, but maybe there are more important problems? 21:13:25 Of course, step #1 is to check whether any given application would actually benefit from this approach, but it seems attractive in principle. 21:13:59 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 21:14:06 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:20 lichtblau: yeah. Funny thing is, I have a m/s GC; I "only" have to make sure it does weak references right ;) 21:14:32 prxq: you could fund luis to improve his parallel GC for SBCL :) 21:14:33 stassats: well, I don't have much experience with GC pauses in SBCL, but I have with Allegro, and its slow global GCs are definitely one of the more pressing problems that I'm seeing with it. 21:14:39 are there any nntp news servers that provide free access to c.l.l? 21:14:41 pkhuong: really? cool. 21:15:03 derrida: eternal september 21:15:08 whozzit who was running mark in a fork that communicated what to sweep over a pipe? 21:15:18 fe[nl]ix: ahhh he is working on it? 21:15:49 derrida: tmh's reply was actually constructive, btw. It's a free usenet host. 21:15:51 tmh: thanks :) 21:15:57 of course, fork and threads can be "interesting" just to get going. 21:15:57 yeah, looks awesome 21:16:00 Fare: AFAIK, that was only tried in a paper. 21:16:02 i'm reading now 21:16:20 prxq: it was his master's thesis 21:16:28 *p_l* lately got Allegro CL but was disappointed by its CLIM... I guess that's what you get from having such old version ^^; 21:16:30 erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:16:34 pkhuong: Umm, as opposed to my normally non-constructive replies? ;-) 21:16:55 tmh: that one took me a while to understand (: 21:17:01 *tmh* makes a note to self to improve his contribution. 21:17:52 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:18:02 tmh: no, that's what was surprising. I wasn't expecting a bitter "eternal september, c.l.l is useless" reply from you. 21:18:50 i've always found that #lisp seems to experience its September in January... maybe Lisp is more commonly taught after the break, or something? 21:18:52 kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:05 lichtblau: happened by accident: I worked on scavenged chunks of the foreign heap, then sweeped chunks of the foreign heap, and putting both together give a mark/sweep (if oriented toward sweeping chunks of address space instead of individual objects). 21:19:18 *drewc* is very happy using eternal-september as his nntp host 21:19:25 drewc: Or maybe that's when they start assigning lisp homework? 21:19:44 ("We covered the theory last term, now we'll do the practical.") 21:19:48 pkhuong: if you google for "parallel garbage collection", there is a link on the first page to the pdf of a presentation of one Xiao-Feng Li. On page 11 there's a picture that should make the issue clear. 21:19:49 pkhuong: I thought it was a gentle nudge to motivate me to contribute better replies on #lisp. I have a bad habit of interjecting nonsense because I get annoyed with some of the conversations. 21:19:53 nyef: that sounds reasonable too :) 21:20:04 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:20:26 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:20:44 prxq: I understand the problem. It's not related to *multithreaded* *consing*. You just have an app that conses a lot on a multicore machine. 21:21:40 Requiring an allocation lock, that would be bad support for multithreaded consing. 21:23:22 lisppaste: url? 21:23:22 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:23:25 I looked into having a separate GC thread to run in parallel with the mutators except when doing a flip, but couldn't make it work out on win32. 21:23:42 pkhuong: sure enough, so? 21:24:02 -!- alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-1092.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:24:26 nyef: Clarification, an FFI based CLX is advantageous because it integrates better with non-CL X11 applications and libraries? 21:24:51 better meaning easier, or seamlessly, or something. 21:24:53 Blkt` [~user@host-78-13-247-93.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:25:01 tmh: With non-CL X11 libraries, yes. The applications take resource IDs straight, so they don't get any benefit. 21:25:21 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 21:25:23 alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-1092.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:25:43 prxq: so it's not that the GC doesn't support multicore programs. It's just single threaded. You're not looking for special parallel programming support from the GC, you just want it to run faster on your machine -- and who doesn't? 21:26:04 nyef: You would still need the FFI to the library, though. So, you're wanting an X11 FFI ecosystem. 21:26:29 -!- quack [~quack@213.13.201.118] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:27:14 I wouldn't have put it that way, but essentially yes. 21:28:02 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-234-14.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:28:07 A simple example: Right now, CLX has some GLX support. That GLX support will -never- do direct GL, because direct GL requires hitting the hardware directly, and the libraries that do that client-side all depend on the C XLib. 21:28:09 I'm running the hunchentoot test example and it keeps prompting me with an error saying it can't find libssl.so. It's definitely installed and located at /usr/lib/libssl.so. How can I get CL+SSL to recognize it? 21:28:22 fe[nl]ix: is luis' work about "parallel" GC in the sense of "GC uses multiple threads" or in the sense of "GC runs at the same as mutator threads"? 21:28:39 I can tell it to accept it anyway but that prevents me from running it in a script 21:28:39 lichtblau: the former. 21:28:55 pkhuong: no, as it stands now it supports multicore programs, but by being single threaded in the way it is, in effect it enforces a "one core" regime. 21:29:03 unless you cons very very little. 21:29:04 lichtblau: parallel but not concurrent 21:29:16 brennanc: if you're not using SSL you can push :hunchentoot-no-ssl to *features* before loading 21:29:37 nyef: I need to do some reading, then. I was under the impression that using the GLX protocol gave you direct GL. 21:29:55 No, it gives you indirect GL. 21:29:59 adeht: I got that part down, but it seems like drakma requires CL+SSL which then causes the error 21:30:14 the hunchentoot test / demo require drakma 21:30:18 Direct GL involves mapping the accellerator hardware directly into your client process and hitting it from there. 21:30:50 nyef: Ok, I need to do a lot more reading, then. Need to run, my dog just took off. Have to track her down. 21:31:03 pkhuong: it is known that a GC can do better. 21:31:33 brennanc: you can push the directory where the libs reside in to cffi:*foreign-library-directories* 21:32:12 also check your /etc/ld.so.conf 21:33:09 prxq: yes. 21:33:24 Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-2-253.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:33:44 prxq: no one ever argued otherwise. My contention is with your statement that the GC somehow offers bad support for multicore programming. It's not parallelised, but that's all. 21:34:18 also, what's the obsession with direct GL? i've run bzflag remotely through SSH with no problems at all 21:34:46 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:34:46 pkhuong: if it does enforce a one-core policy by accident, it in effect offers bad support for multicore programming. 21:35:03 pkhuong: not necessarily *all*: the page table tricks that the GC uses are likely to be worse with multiple threads, too 21:36:02 jdz: It's an example, and possibly not a good one, but is representitve of the problem: If we use FFI to any library that depends on XLib, we end up using XLib. Given that, we either use XLib ourselves, or we end up maintaining two X server connections. 21:36:04 i keep crashing sbcl's compile in slime with " failed AVER: (NOT (EQL # DELETED)) 21:36:22 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-54.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:36:40 nyef: that i understand. i'm talking about the direct vs. indirect GL 21:36:40 pkhuong: but saying that is not the same as saying "it sucks" - I hope that's clear :-) 21:36:54 prxq: it's not very good. That's not the question. 21:37:00 i suspect it has something to do with loop while collect pop :P 21:37:14 jdz: because the only reason why your example with bzflag works is because bzflag doesn't have that much of requirements from GPU 21:37:16 ACL, for instance, long had a heap lock; *that* is bad support for multithreaded consing. 21:37:47 p_l: have you tried running it using software renderer? 21:38:22 Direct GL is only important when you're going to attempt to saturate the pipe moving stuff (such as textures or rendering commands) to/from the GPU. 21:38:27 ld.so.conf looks good, I tried pushing the path but not sure I did it right because I still have the error. 21:38:29 (push #P"/usr/lib/" cffi:*foreign-library-directories*) 21:38:33 is that right? 21:38:33 jdz: I'll say just that - try to run over SSH something that wants to pull ~2GB/s transfers between GPU and program ;-) 21:38:35 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:38:40 At that point, you want as short a path as possible. 21:38:58 p_l: do you have such a CL program? 21:39:11 Until you're trying to saturate that pipe it's unlikely to matter. 21:39:16 brennanc: does (cffi:load-foreign-library "libssl.so") work ? 21:39:33 pkhuong: ugh 21:39:48 jdz: right now? no, but If I were to write one, I'd like to be able to use CL for it - but I just asked regarding your question (also, I had seen *HUGE* slowdowns on indirect GL) 21:39:58 anyway, i myself am convinced that maintaining CL implementation of GLX is a dead end. 21:40:00 prxq: here's a thought experiment: if nothing else changed about the GC, except that it ran 10 times faster, would it then have good multicore support? 21:40:12 pkhuong: no. 21:40:15 -!- konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:22 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:28 s/10/number of CPU/. 21:40:29 <_deepfire> nyef, Direct GL is important if your texture working set approaches your video memory. 21:40:30 jdz: right now I'm more thinking about losses from FFI calls 21:40:35 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:40:48 jdz: It's asking for trouble, certainly, particularly with the hackery required for threading. 21:41:00 _deepfire: Yes, that counts as trying to saturate that pipe. 21:41:06 no, it says it can't find "libssl.so" 21:41:10 or if GC was instantaneous. 21:41:17 and support for all the new stuff that's comping up (like OpenCL and shaders and stuff) 21:41:42 konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has joined #lisp 21:41:53 (never mind the usual "scaling is a red herring, what you want is satisfying performance") 21:42:14 This is one of those cases where the way we've been doing it has worked in the past, but is breaking down now, and will only cause more pain in the future. 21:42:17 jdz: OpenCL fortunately (or not?) is a completely separate library 21:42:26 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:42:35 Again, "how to win big". 21:42:50 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:59 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44b7ee.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:02 pkhuong: good multicore support would imply that I can run the same (consing) process on eight cores, and do about eight times the ops per s than on a single core. 21:43:19 <_deepfire> nyef, why is it breaking down, btw? 21:43:24 that would be ideal. 21:43:26 Yeah. And you can do that by spending less time in GC too. 21:43:37 <_deepfire> nyef, (I assume you mean CLX vs. calling xlib) 21:43:39 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:08 _deepfire: scroll up 21:45:02 _deepfire: Because in order to do the baseline stuff with XLib proper you end up needing to bind parts of it -anyway- in order to maintain the second connection, thus it's a duplication of effort, a waste of memory space, and brings possible headaches with connection management particularly in non-blocking I/O scenarios. 21:45:04 <_deepfire> jdz, I find it hard to interpret what I see unambiguously. 21:46:06 <_deepfire> nyef, ..and going entirely Xlibless is obviously unsustainable? 21:46:43 mega1 [~quassel@3e44b7ee.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 21:46:57 <_deepfire> I feel like I'm missing something obvious. 21:47:03 _deepfire: going Xlibless is blissfully portable other than socket portability and possibly some stuff in the code. Except that this approach won't work with any code outside of CL ecosystem 21:47:45 Alternately, ignoring XLib in favor of higher-level toolkits doesn't work either, partly due to backwards compatability and partly due to the fact that XLib is about the only target we have that Just Fucking Works. 21:47:52 No matter how bad a target it is. 21:48:25 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:48:26 ok, this is getting weird now. If I do (cffi:load-foreign-library "/usr/lib/libssl.so") I get Error opening shared object "/usr/lib64/libssl.so.0.9.8"...wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS64 21:48:29 pkhuong: in principle, yes. But that's not realistic, I think. 21:48:30 nyef: in a way, we could target XCB and just get necessary structures from it to pass to other libraries 21:48:49 brennanc: you're using a 32bit implementation and tried to load a 64bit library 21:48:53 but if I don't give it the absolute path it can't find it at all. so why is it looking at the lib64 version 21:49:21 I'm trying to load the 32bit implementation, it keeps trying the 64 version it seems 21:49:21 brennanc: what distro, implementation and architecture? 21:49:44 brennanc: I suppose that libssl.so is found, but for some reason ignored 21:49:46 gentoo, sbcl 1.0.35 21:49:49 prxq: why not? Point remains, you want a faster GC, not special multicore support. 21:50:08 brennanc: oh boy... I'm not sure, but I think that you need to look in /opt/ :) 21:50:26 it looks for it in /opt? 21:50:33 brennanc: also, you might want to try running your library with linux32 21:50:38 *implementation 21:50:39 Whether the speed up happens because the GC is parallelised or because it's written better doesn't matter. If you want a nice usage profile, I can make sure to spin extra threads to burn cpu time during the GC too. 21:51:04 brennanc: no, your program is *not* looking, since /usr/lib on Gentoo/amd64 is the same as /usr/lib64 21:51:08 -!- konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:20 brennanc: you seem to have a broken system 21:51:21 brennanc: Try /usr/lib32/ instead? 21:51:21 -!- francogrex [~user@56.143-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:51:39 ahh, let me give that a try 21:51:41 My gentoo has a link /usr/lib -> lib64 21:51:48 Gentoo, at least the last time I used it (and without special flags that require certain build) is not a multilib system, at least not in the old, proposed lib/lib64 scheme that no one seems to have implemented 21:52:20 And I have separate /usr/lib32 and /usr/lib64 directories. 21:52:43 pkhuong: no, I want special multicore support. Thanks for asking. 21:53:13 nyef: oh, it uses lib32 21:53:39 Arch keeps 32bit stuff in /opt/lib32 21:53:40 nyef: In the glx1.4 spec "This direct rendering is possible only when a process has direct access to the graphics pipeline." Is this the key issue? 21:54:02 tmh: No, the key issue is knowing what the hell to -do- with said direct access. 21:54:12 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:17 NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-20-82-64-5-249.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 21:54:43 tmh: direct access is implemented by GL library & driver. Depending on where you are, it might be solved in various ways 21:55:30 tmh: Essentially, you either use the system-provided library for direct GL or you end up writing your own card drivers. 21:55:42 on Linux you either have Mesa+its driver, or vendor-specific implementation (nVidia, possibly some specialist cards), on Irix you had GL.so which basically sent the commands to /dev/GL, iirc 21:55:47 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-212-97.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:55:53 konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has joined #lisp 21:55:54 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:56:25 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:28 *nyef* wonders how the nouveau people are getting on these days... 21:56:36 Ok, still reading, thanks. 21:56:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:56:54 tmh: indirect GLX is going through a socket. 21:57:28 Not merely going through a socket, but going through your X server socket wrapped in X requests. 21:57:46 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44b7ee.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:57:50 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:58:08 tmh: basically, with indirect, your X server is talking to the hardware. With direct, you use GLX only to coordinate with X server about access to graphic card 21:58:29 This is in a lispworks dump; but any idea what "return address not inside a CFO" would mean? 21:58:33 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 21:58:47 Modius: "Compiled Function Object", perhaps? 21:58:52 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:59:00 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:59:18 hmm, sounds like it is going to be a problem to get the 32-bit version of libssl installed on this box. I'm wondering if it would be easier to modify drakma so that it doesn't need CL+SSL. I really don't need anything SSL 22:00:27 are you using 32bit sbcl ? 22:00:40 brennanc: why do you need drakma for hunchentoot? 22:00:55 it's used for tests, but do you need them? 22:01:04 re "multicore support": ok, actually, not faster GC, but lower total pause time (to account for concurrent or mostly concurrent GCs). 22:01:38 stassats: technically no, but I'm trying to figure out how to get hunchentoot up and running from a system reboot and so I thought the tests would be a good place to start 22:02:46 ok, i have reached the conclusion that using pop in a loop is bad 22:03:14 bad for what? 22:03:35 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 22:03:44 brennanc: why are you using 32bit version on an obviously 64bit system? 22:04:18 Once you pop (in a loop) you can't stop? 22:04:45 pkhuong: the middle ground is, Nx faster than on one core if you have N cores, and without costly synchronization ops. You'd call that a faster GC, I offer to agree, and you admit that, given the usual GC performance, that this constitutes "special multicore support". Deal? :-) 22:04:57 nyef: totally! 22:05:06 -!- tautologico [~andrei@189.71.39.181] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:05:08 p_l: good point, I downloaded the latest binary from sbcl.org, maybe I should download an older version and then upgrade it from there with the source 22:05:11 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 22:05:22 stassats: bad in erroring out of sbcl compile with an internal error 22:05:30 <_deepfire> pkhuong, has "multicore" acquired a special meaning of its own, separate from "threadsafe"/"SMP" these days? 22:05:48 Demosthenes: because you are doing it wrong? 22:06:01 paste your code and error 22:06:10 _deepfire: "threadsafe" can just mean "uses locks to prevent more than one thread from executing at any given time". 22:06:42 brennanc: I recommend just grabbing a 64bit binary then using it to bootstrap a new one with clbuild 22:06:54 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:06:56 brennanc: better install the lisp overlay and use that 22:07:01 or that 22:07:08 <_deepfire> nyef, I thought that SMP-level parallelism vs. thread-level parallelism is only distinguishable at kernel level 22:07:11 I haven't used Gentoo for long time 22:07:45 _deepfire: My point is that if you use a lock to prevent multiple threads from executing at once, you're hardly using multiple cores. 22:07:54 what do you mean by lisp overlay 22:08:45 brennanc: do you know that an "overlay" is in the context of Gentoo ? 22:08:55 <_deepfire> nyef, the rest of the difference is quantitative, as in "how well your locking scheme scales", no? 22:09:14 stassats: working on isolating an example 22:09:18 if i can't i did it wrong ;] 22:09:38 _deepfire: the scheme nyef describes scales fantastically well. It will always use one core, no matter how many are available :-) 22:09:52 no, not familiar with it in the gentoo sense, I installed from binary from sbcl.org 22:10:03 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:10:04 <_deepfire> prxq, and I was going on about something entirely different. 22:10:24 ok 22:10:33 brennanc: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/overlays/userguide.xml 22:11:24 <_deepfire> I just don't get what people mean when they say "multicore", as if this is a somehow magically new feature of programs which threaded programs with good locking schemes haven't already had. 22:11:43 _deepfire: multicore is modern jargon for smp. That's all. 22:11:51 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:00 <_deepfire> prxq, I guess that's what I have a problem with, yes. 22:12:15 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:12:34 kglovern [~kglovern@129-97-159-216.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 22:13:16 *tmh* is starting to lean towards learning lispbuilder. 22:13:17 <_deepfire> "special multicore support" 22:13:18 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 22:13:35 Demosthenes pasted "Bad loop?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94668 22:13:48 stassats: sbcl goes into an infinite loop compiling 22:14:10 _deepfire: so you wouldn't have an issue if it was "special smp support"? 22:14:33 Demosthenes: loop when 22:14:37 <_deepfire> prxq, I think I'd word it around lock contention. 22:15:09 adeht: that may be a bad example, i'm summarizing other code. i'll make that while ;] 22:15:53 <_deepfire> prxq, which is what the problem actually is -- minimise lock contention, while maintaining correctness. 22:16:19 <_deepfire> And notice how you don't even need to mention SMP or multicore. 22:16:35 *sigh* i can't make a good short example, ah well. 22:17:23 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 22:17:29 _deepfire: I didn't know "multicore" or "SMP" where somehow dirty words 22:17:30 Demosthenes: your inner loop looks infinite 22:18:08 _deepfire: well, in some contexts you might have a difference between SMP and multicore (but it's more making "multicore" into "two-level ccNUMA") 22:18:19 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:18:31 jdz: the issue with the original code was a compile failure which said i triggered an internal failure in sbcl 22:18:39 perhaps i'm that bad ;] 22:18:42 <_deepfire> prxq, why use hints when you can directly talk about your problems? 22:19:05 Demosthenes: so paste the original code 22:20:28 _deepfire: how is "it does not scale with the number of cores" not a direct formulation of the problem? 22:20:34 -!- sierinjs [~root@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has quit [Quit: Must get sum sleeps.] 22:21:11 <_deepfire> prxq, arguably, this is a symptome. 22:22:12 -!- erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:17 <_deepfire> Actually, lock contention is a part of issue, another is resource starvation. 22:25:20 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-busy 22:25:23 nyef: Have you looked at lispbuilder? 22:27:12 <_deepfire> Well, there might be a point in using a shortcut, but the whole thing doesn't need to be uselessly vague. 22:27:19 a 32/64-bit mixed system would be nice -- get more bandwidth with still reasonable address space. 22:27:23 tmh: Not seriously, but I may do so in the future. 22:27:39 Fare: Like SBCL on Alpha? 22:27:51 nyef, yup, we were discussing that together earlier 22:29:27 actually, by playing on shifts and alignments, we could have 8GB or more of addressable space. 22:29:47 c-t-f begins to seem like a poor mechanism for build configuration. 22:29:55 nyef: With my naive understanding of what you were describing, I think lispbuilder is pretty close. 22:30:09 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 22:30:30 what's c-t-f ? 22:30:48 capture the flag 22:30:49 also like Jvaa on x86-64 22:30:53 er, Java 22:30:53 <_deepfire> Fare, customize-target-features.lisp, I guess 22:31:11 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.143] has joined #lisp 22:31:18 Yeah, customize-target-features. 22:31:22 http://wikis.sun.com/display/HotSpotInternals/CompressedOops 22:31:26 foom: the sun jvm has a 32/64 hybrid model? 22:31:33 I mean, Oracle. 22:31:54 Really, what on earth do you do with three different choices for fixnum width? 22:32:25 nyef, have lots of fun? 22:32:49 <_deepfire> nyef, running through boinkmarks, choosing the "best" and dropping the other two? :-) 22:32:51 leo2007 [~leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:32:53 I suppose, but the options are only going tog et worse over time... 22:33:06 -!- prxq [~mommer@g227067042.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:33:18 wedgeV [~wedge@adsl-69-232-231-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:26 _deepfire: Umm... No. There's a simple reason why we would want to support at least two, and it has to do with maintainability of the source tree. 22:33:45 prxq [~mommer@g228002156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:34:13 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:34:35 -!- jdz [~jdz@84.237.142.223] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 22:35:04 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:36:36 someone annotated #94668 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94668#1 22:37:59 -!- prxq [~mommer@g228002156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:03 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 22:39:21 <_deepfire> nyef, interesting, it's not obvious.. 22:40:20 _deepfire: Without it, it's too easy to start relying on the relationship between word-shift and n-fixnum-tag-bits. Thus, by keeping it explicitly variable, we can watch for violations with a simple test. 22:40:26 Xof: hello 22:40:43 someone: while n is unnecessary 22:40:55 s/on/in/ 22:41:04 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:41:29 Is opengl a c lib? 22:41:54 no, it's a standard 22:42:42 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:46 I'm getting a serious failure load-testing against hunchentoot, LW32. It manifests itself when I have hunchentoot write to the stream in quantity. 22:42:47 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:43:07 can a LW user test ASDF? 22:43:09 What does it ultimately use as the socket layer - something built in to each implementation or something in libraries? 22:43:20 would require updating asdf/test/run-tests.sh 22:43:30 (I mean, LWPro) 22:43:47 Are you asking for someone to test ASDF? 22:43:48 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 22:43:53 I have lwpro/win32 right here 22:44:00 Modius: it uses LW networking directly 22:44:14 and usocket on others 22:44:22 It only happens when deployed, and seems to grenade in the garbage collector. 22:45:37 Modius, would be nice if you could test it. 22:45:45 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:46 Does windows have some notion of UID ? 22:46:09 Fare: I assume you want me to test something other than the bug I'm whining about. I use asdf in lispworks, is there something specific you'd like me to do? Should we take this to email? 22:46:28 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:57 Fare: You mean, a unique ID for each user? 22:47:16 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:47:26 yes. 22:47:38 Modius: yes, please. 22:47:50 It does. Something to do with "authority" or "security descriptor", I believe. 22:48:00 Unfortunately, it's not a simple integer. 22:48:13 Also unfortunately, SBCL doesn't know the first thing about it. 22:49:17 Fare: there's SID, which is a fairly large pair of integers 22:49:35 (similar to GUID) 22:49:50 Also, SIDs belong not only to users 22:50:06 p_l: as long as each user has its own, I suppose that can make do. 22:50:44 Fare: yes, no two users have the same SID, even on different machines (unless the account is network account, but it's still only one user) 22:51:06 each Windows installation also has its own SID 22:51:51 next question would then be, how do I extract the SID on each of the implementations that ASDF supports... ARG 22:51:52 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:56 (that's why you can't really install Windows by simply imaging it to hard drive) 22:52:01 Fare: CFFI, I guess 22:52:14 p_l: chicken and egg problem, here 22:52:27 or writing down each implementation's FFI 22:52:42 Perhaps something with run-program? 22:52:44 some actually might have APIs to access that (I suspect ACL and LW already have) 22:53:09 YamNad [~YamNad1@91.84.41.221] has joined #lisp 22:53:15 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:15 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:53:15 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:53:18 nyef: Possible, but popen is rather iffy on win32, afaik? 22:53:45 hum. LWPro doesn't have a --eval thingie at its CLI, does it? 22:53:57 p_l: -Anything- posix is iffy on win32. 22:54:21 nyef: s/posix// ? 22:54:43 No, there are some parts of Win32 that are actually decently solid. 22:54:59 -eval - one dash 22:55:03 jockc [~jockc@dsl-206-251-71-75.dynamic.linkline.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 22:55:05 Potentially semantically weird, but solid. 22:55:06 Fare: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/LW/html/lw-484.htm#pgfId-891723 22:55:22 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 22:55:26 nyef: well, lack of common allocator on Win32 can make *anything* iffy ;-) 22:55:43 "common allocator"? 22:55:53 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@adsl-69-232-231-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 22:56:04 nyef: on Unix, unless you do something weird, you usually have *one* implementation of malloc()/free() 22:56:10 (mmap is a syscall) 22:56:16 Oh, you mean GlobalAlloc()? 22:56:36 nyef: now imagine two C libraries, compiled with the same compiler, that have two copies of mallo() and free() :D 22:56:46 (And, yes, some libcs do use GlobalAlloc() directly.) 22:56:57 -!- davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:57:45 I heard funny things about people who made a plugin, for example, with the same version of VC++ as the target app, etc... except they included the C runtime into the plugin 22:58:03 'swhat you get for not using the DLL. 22:58:22 And, yes, you can get a similar effect with Linux. 22:59:19 yeah. Though some people seem to actually encourage breakage like that... 22:59:24 *p_l* looks at clisp's code 22:59:57 I could wish that the win32 debug api weren't quite so crippled, though. 23:00:43 nyef: at least we don't really have to worry about *puer* win32, do we? There's only NT :-) 23:00:44 quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:46 *pure 23:00:49 migge [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 23:01:01 ReactOS? 23:01:11 nyef: Implements NT 23:01:25 Not that ReactOS can run SBCL, at last check, even if you do manage to deal with the memory map issue. 23:01:31 At the risk of starting a flamewar, how does SBCL match up to Allegro in the performance of the generated code? 23:01:37 -!- NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-20-82-64-5-249.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:02:11 quotemstr_: As far as I know/heard, SBCL is fastest out there, though it pays for it with other things (like compilation speed) 23:02:18 quotemstr_: I'm quite confident that benchmarks could be constructed to show an advantage to both sides. 23:02:31 lol, puer win32 23:02:37 ^ what nyef said 23:02:55 Thus, if you really, truly care, test it yourself on code representative of what you're actually planning on doing. 23:03:13 gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 23:03:26 And optimize the test code for both compilers, since you optimize to the compiler you use. 23:03:37 especially on safe code, or code that performs a lot of pointer manipulation (but that would tend to put more pressure on the memory subsystem) 23:04:07 fe[nl]ix: I am very happy that I jumped ship from 98/ME quite fast 23:04:17 (when it comes to windows) 23:06:57 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:49 I'm wondering, is there some sort of project that provides a CL runtime environment, for SBCL or anything really. 23:07:57 ? 23:08:16 jtza8_: define "CL runtime environment" 23:08:29 from my pov, that's what SBCL/CCL/ACL/LW etc. provide :D 23:08:31 jtza8_: A common lisp runtime environment for SBCL? I beleive that the SBCL project provides such a thing... 23:08:53 jtza8_: The problem with CL is getting rid of the runtime environment when you don't need it. Google "tree shaker". 23:08:56 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-219-47.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:09:09 p_l: Well, that part of an image that could be recycled, so that binaries would be smaller. 23:09:12 OpenCL? That's another matter... Computational Linguistics? That's another matter... 23:09:38 Ah, the age-old application delivery story again. 23:09:49 sb-heapdump? 23:10:01 quotemstr_, tree shakers are usually for getting rid of things like the compiler, debugger, or CLOS, when they aren't necessary. The runtime itself (aka "kernel") is pretty critical. 23:10:05 -!- hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Quit: hugod] 23:10:26 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:11:28 jtza8_: so something like fasls? Compile to fasls and load them in a common base image. 23:11:37 Bah, fasloading is slow. 23:11:39 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:12:02 p_l: I don't think you got my joke :) 23:12:34 Right, still, in terms of modern systems, 20MB or so isn't all that much. 23:13:07 27MB output/sbcl.core here. 23:14:09 That said, I do know how to produce cores without so much of the system in them. 23:14:59 But turning that knowledge into something actually useful would be quite a bit of work. 23:15:00 Maybe a simple diff of a standard core could work. 23:15:00 btw, I just noticed something interesting in ACL... some form of precaching for CLOS 23:15:20 -!- TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:57 I wonder how much that changes from the pov of application? 23:16:15 jtza8_: a different FASL format *could* help, I guess 23:16:36 nyef: I'm thinking, SBCL could be installed, and could be as fat as it would like to be (like the JRE)? 23:16:49 jtza8_: look at ECL, which actually uses solib as its FASL format. ACL had its Allegro Presto. 23:17:32 Could work. 23:17:49 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:18:00 For now though, I'm happy distributing a static executable. 23:18:20 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-81.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 23:18:46 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 23:19:03 jtza8_: in theory, you could make a solib-like fasl format that would load as fast as you can mmap it... 23:19:17 I think that's one of the things that holds me back with respect to lisp and application delivery: The lisp systems that I like to use Just Do It Wrong, and making anything to Just Do It Right is a pain. 23:19:41 Heh. 23:19:46 p_l: Such a lovely theory. 23:19:49 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@129-97-159-216.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:20:02 hi I am using asdf in sbcl with slime and I try to figure out how to run my function: I have a basic function foo define in my file and I had the defsystem and all the stuff in an other file but when I do C-c C-l my function foo is unbound thanks for help 23:20:16 nyef: and since we combine theory and practice, nothing works and no-one knows why? ;D 23:20:18 p_l: Actually, I think I might know how to make that happen for SBCL... 23:20:27 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:36 Basically, C has a standard library, if only CL (implementations) had the same.. 23:20:58 ? 23:21:21 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-159.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:21:34 do you want CL implementations to have a C standard library? 23:21:38 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:21:45 jtza8_: ... do you mean "unices have dynamic linking"? 23:22:04 jtza8_: we have package COMMON-LISP. The standard library is shared only because UNIX used it as main API ;-) 23:23:11 adeht: how does cl-opengl work? implement the opengl standard in lisp? 23:23:36 moocow [~new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 23:23:36 there are no known standards in lisp, leo2007. give it up. 23:23:54 there're 1001 implementations of foo*.* though :) 23:24:02 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:24:39 leo2007: it binds various C libraries. 23:24:44 Let's see... For the dumper, behave more like genesis in creating some heap pages of various types. For the loader, borrow the heap relocation stuff, grab a page type flag from the GC, mmap() the different sections in... You end up with a list of TLFs to call and that's about it. 23:24:57 leo2007: no, cl-opengl provides a set of bindings 23:25:18 NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-22-82-249-125-175.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:33 Proof-of-concept, a long weekend to a week. Actually deliverable? Probably closer to a month. 23:26:47 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:56 nyef: Still, an... interesing concept :) 23:27:15 any help on my asdf issue? 23:27:23 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.210] has joined #lisp 23:27:30 -!- milanj [~milan@109.93.81.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:27:59 wht are the names of those libs? 23:28:18 you can see gl/library.lisp 23:28:23 nyef: make all the shared stuff static, and run a quick binary diff? 23:28:49 mathk: (asdf:oos 'load-op :your-asdf-system) ? 23:28:55 pkhuong: Is that what sb-heapdump does? 23:28:59 gigamonk` [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-44-3.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:07 nyef: not afaik. 23:29:23 -!- gigamonk` [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-44-3.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 23:29:36 Really, I suspect that the community as a whole has little interest in improving the situation. 23:29:49 -!- guaq [gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:30:21 davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:30 <_deepfire> Don't look at me, I'm struggling with issues already. 23:30:35 Performance improvement, sure, but the changes required to produce an actual decent distribution/deployment model? 23:30:54 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-149-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:31:03 <_deepfire> nyef, it'd take understanding at a hard-attainable level. 23:31:47 True. And a huge amount of work. 23:31:59 Plus there's then adoption to consider. 23:32:06 And the adoption alone would kill. 23:32:47 nyef: I suppose it might be irrelavant... but "necessity is the mother of invention", so it'll probably take some sort of shape if it's really needed. 23:32:56 is that if i got There is no class named LOAD-OP. is that asdf is not installed? 23:33:03 Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-235-148.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 23:33:10 -!- YamNad [~YamNad1@91.84.41.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:33:36 jtza8_: "Necessity is a mother", so perhaps the users that really need to move on to other languages and environments instead? 23:33:49 -!- marklarr [~user@173-30-20-80.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 23:34:19 nyef: Supposedly that's why it doesn't exist. 23:34:46 <_deepfire> Not enough lisp porn to seduce them into coding slavery.. 23:35:16 I would argue that the lack of a good deployment story is damage that has been well routed-around, by the simple expedient of using something other than lisp in the first place. 23:35:33 (incf nyef) 23:35:42 _deepfire: Yes... but maybe that's a good thing, slaves write terrible code. 23:36:24 -!- Blkt` [~user@host-78-13-247-93.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:36:44 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@65.217.189.98] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:37:17 wedgeV [~wedge@adsl-69-232-231-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:18 well simple question how do I know if asdf is installed? 23:37:32 (member :asdf *features*) 23:37:34 <_deepfire> nyef, doesn't ECL provide a good deployment story? 23:37:35 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 23:38:28 _deepfire: And what is its market share in terms of common lisp programmers? 23:38:35 nyef: are you looking for CL desktop apps? Or mobile apps? 23:38:54 rickmode: Can't I consider the needs of both? 23:39:23 27 megs for a download is still obscenely large for some people, even for a desktop application. 23:39:45 nyef: I mean both together, in opposition to server-based apps. Lisp seems ideal for server-side apps. For desktop apps, I'd start with the native dev tools first (e.g., Objective-C for Mac / iPhone) 23:40:08 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-113-191.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 23:40:18 nyef: Java faces the same issue and generally java desktop apps suck 23:40:20 Right, but even on the server the story is far from ideal. 23:40:36 <_deepfire> nyef, dunno, hefner has already defected :-) 23:40:51 <_deepfire> eclwards, that is. 23:41:23 I'm actually considering taking a deeper look at Scheme, particularly PLT. 23:42:04 For some reason I get this impression of a monolithic blob of "stuff"ness when I look at CL. 23:42:19 so if I understand asdf correectly on should put every thing in a package to avoid name conflict? 23:43:12 mathk: you don't need to, but it's a good idea. 23:43:19 mathk: that's true with or without asdf. 23:43:54 chris__ [~chris@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:01 yeap but I use the use-package 'bar and endup in a name conflict 23:44:11 -!- chris__ [~chris@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:44:28 fatblueduck [~chris@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:37 mathk: I'm hitting newbie ASDF issues today too (using it for the first time). I have SBCL and Aquamacs installed on Mac OS X. I then used ASDF-INSTALL in a terminal to get hunchentoot (and delt with digest errors). But the Aquamacs environment doesn't see these packages. 23:44:47 and if I remove (use-package 'bar) I got some unboud error 23:45:21 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:41 <_deepfire> mathk, generally you don't use packages like that. Typically, you would /declare/ packages, along with their use relationships, and then you would work (in-package :foo). 23:46:16 *Xach* occasionally makes packages that aren't ever intended to be in-package 23:46:31 Mmm... I've made packages like that too. 23:46:57 me too, like a package containing nothing but CPU instruction mnemonics 23:47:11 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:11 _deepfire: yeap that what I am starting to figureit out 23:47:12 Makes it easier to avoid conflicts with CL. 23:47:29 <_deepfire> mathk, you could get a nice overview in http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 23:47:36 i was thinking the other day about a hunchentoot tweak like (serve-package 'www.foo.com), and then things like (defun www.foo.com::/hello () "Hello, world") 23:47:43 _deepfire: that document is garbage. 23:47:43 <_deepfire> mathk, don't get scared by the title, btw. 23:47:54 I think that having use-package and export and such so prominently displayed next to in-package and defpackage. 23:48:00 _deepfire: :) 23:48:09 It gives you a nice overview if your intent is to think the package system is an awful, worthless thing to be avoided. 23:48:24 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:46 -!- marioxcc-busy is now known as marioxcc 23:49:05 amazing, cl-opengl compiles with just one warning on OSX. 23:49:16 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-2-253.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:49:43 <_deepfire> Xach, point him to something better, then 23:49:46 mathk: The PCL book has a chapter on packages, and I think it does it rather well. 23:49:59 rickmode: I am using sbcl via macport and asdf is already in it 23:50:10 -!- koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:50:44 mathk: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 23:50:52 <_deepfire> mathk, the chapter jtza8_ spoke about is at http://gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 23:50:54 yeap thanks 23:50:57 minion: tell mathk about packages 23:50:57 mathk: have a look at packages: http://weitz.de/packages.html http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html http://flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 23:50:59 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:15 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 23:52:14 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f664703-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:52:52 I read the ANSI Common LISP by paul graham put there is not a lot on package thanks for those links 23:54:04 -!- kib2 [~chatzilla@2a01:e35:2e49:f1c0:d559:10e3:d2f6:aa0a] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [SeaMonkey 2.0.2/20100104163003]] 23:54:27 mathk: how was it. I've read about 70% of PCL and am reading the packages chapter now 23:54:54 mathk: ansi common lisp treats packages pretty shabbily. 23:55:25 guaq [gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:30 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Client Quit] 23:56:01 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:56:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 23:56:43 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 23:56:44 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-73-247.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Good night all :P] 23:56:46 brennanc: it's quite a good book, dealing more on programming languages than lisp thought IMHO 23:57:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:57:45 Xach: yeap how about On LISP, seems very intresting but I couldn't find a printed copy 23:58:54 mathk, you can get On Lisp for free, from pg's website 23:58:59 (in PDF form) 23:59:08 On Lisp is out of print. 23:59:13 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:59:19 YamNad [~YamNad1@91.84.41.221] has joined #lisp 23:59:24 anyone have a link to the missing diagrams in On Lisp? 23:59:32 I came across them in the past but didn't bookmark it 23:59:36 Can you run (gears) in cl-glut-examples? 23:59:41 when I went to look for them I couldn't find them anywhere 23:59:48 Mine crahses ccl64. 23:59:50 yeap i have seen that but I tend get tired quickly when rreading on the screen 23:59:55 *p_l* just grabbed some free lisp books in dead-tree version