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[~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:30 -!- davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:52:06 -!- lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-200-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:53:54 leaping lisp porn! application deployment proven possible! http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/lisp-games-for-windows.jpg 04:54:16 hehe :) 04:54:41 and the source looks so pretty in emacs behind it 04:55:20 hefner: sexy! 04:55:29 hefner: is that open source? 04:55:40 nope. 04:55:52 unfortunate 04:55:54 some day, no doubt. 04:56:02 I know a couple people who'd be interested in playing with it 04:56:18 I look forward to doing so myself, for that matter 04:56:38 they can license my sophisticated lisp game engine for the bargain rate of ten billion dollars 04:56:45 anyone know if lisp can be used to control servos? 04:57:03 holycow: that's a nonsensical question 04:57:09 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:28 holycow: compare: anyone know if Ada can launch missiles? 04:57:43 if you want to be pedantic, sure 04:57:50 Ralith: I don't think the USAF would be so keen on it if it couldn't 04:57:58 Adamant: that was the joke, yes 04:58:03 doh 04:58:31 PatrickMcLaren_ [~Patrick@ppp118-209-197-239.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:33 i can't find any projects online that have done so though *hmmm* 04:58:36 but you raise a good point, Lisp was used for a lot of gripper arm AI stuff 04:58:50 I didn't even think of that particular example 04:58:50 holycow: you haven't told us what platform you're targeting 04:58:57 holycow: The answer is "yes". 04:58:57 or what hardware/software interfaces you're using 04:59:11 :P 04:59:48 holycow: Start by getting a servo control board that takes serial input. 04:59:59 sorry, i forgot this isn't #lisp-cafe. the question was probably better for that audience. not targetting anything, i've just been googling for examples of what people have done. i'd like to use lisp to make things move basically 05:00:03 Zhivago: is there a portable serial I/O lib? 05:00:16 holycow: you can use any language to do that. 05:00:41 Zhivago: OS portability being the aspect of interest. 05:01:01 -!- PatrickMcLaren [~Patrick@ppp118-209-224-108.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:01:01 -!- PatrickMcLaren_ is now known as PatrickMcLaren 05:01:08 holycow: typically the APIs you will need to access on any platform will be C linkage, which you can access via CFFI. 05:01:51 Typically you use a serial api -- anyhow, you need to work out what 'servo controller' you're using, since that's what you'll be talking to. 05:02:16 *nod* yeah, yeah i figured cffi will be the most likely interface. again just googling. Zhivago thank you for the tip, googling more on that. 05:02:19 Zhivago: well, he could conceivably want to work on an embedded platform and do the hardware I/O directly. 05:02:48 not that there are all that many embedded platforms with good CL support, mind 05:03:07 well i have a project in mind, its sort of a dot board with tiny plates you can flip. i'd like to use it as an art project 05:03:08 Then he'd be out of luck if he wants to generate pulse modulation directly in CL. 05:03:48 Zhivago: I'd do that via hardware PWM. 05:03:58 basically all i need to figure out is how to get a servo of some sort to rotate 180 degrees and know which way it is facing and then maybe do some funky co-ordinated flipping with other similar gizmos nearby 05:04:06 Good morning! 05:04:21 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:04:21 ralith: Then you're back to what I said :) 05:04:28 You need to work out what your control is going to be. 05:04:36 Zhivago: ...hardware PWM isn't done over serial. 05:04:49 holycow: Get a serial control board -- then you just write a small packet to change the orientation. 05:04:52 hm, there's an interesting question 05:04:52 Zhivago: *nod* i guess thats why i wasn't googling much, most people jus tdo this in c and don't bothing doing a lisp -> cffi -> c sort of thing 05:04:58 ralith: Re-read what I said. 05:05:11 Zhivago: coolness, thanks for the tip 05:05:24 can you frob registers directly over CFFI? 05:06:30 holycow: http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/207 05:07:06 coolness 05:07:26 that looks pretty cool actually 05:07:38 Yeah, I've been meaning to get a couple myself. 05:07:45 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:07:59 also 05:08:11 what happened to the CL implementations that had to run on extremely limited resources (by today's standards)? 05:08:31 They were commecial and no-one paid for them? 05:08:38 hah! 05:08:52 but is there anything baring the use of CL for embedded projects? 05:09:05 if one can write compilers and oses... 05:09:08 i don't think so anymore 05:09:14 (in the early 18th century, mind you)... 05:09:18 i mean cf storage is huge and dirt cheap 05:09:20 why not now? 05:09:40 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 05:10:04 bjork: These days embedded just means that it has a funny keyboard. 05:10:19 i found a 2.5" sbc with an atom cpu recently 05:10:20 hahah 05:10:33 you will be able to build a netbook the size of a blackberry if you want soon 05:11:09 I remember programming a machine with 128 bytes of ram. 05:11:11 and it had 2 usb, 2 sata, 1 ata, 1dvi out and many other connections in 2.5" size 05:11:27 embarrasment of riches really 05:11:42 it's rather surprising that after hardware and memory prices have been bent so much by moore's law, that lisp on metal has been more or less abandoned. 05:11:51 Zhivago: this is quite cool dude, cheap. i'm going to order a couple. 05:12:02 meanwhile these things were being done on meagre hard ware not that long ago. 05:12:11 bjorkintosh: well it may turn back to that 05:12:15 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@177.58-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:12:30 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:12:33 microsoft showed the world that there was a benefit to separating the software from hardware wehen hardware was amazingly expensive 05:12:36 when things are cheap 05:12:38 holycow: do you know how to hook those up to your computer? 05:12:52 i don't see why ms hasn't actually just bought a mobo manufacturer and built their own version of the mac, ground up 05:12:56 Use a usb-rs232 :) 05:13:06 and kick the bios writers to the curbe and write things ina more sane way 05:13:08 They come in wireless form now, too. 05:13:08 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:20 Ralith: not yet :) 05:13:21 holycow, there's no point in building a mac ground up anymore, because they use intels nowadays. 05:13:28 holycow: What benefit would that give them? 05:13:39 well by mac, i mean the mac experience 05:13:48 Isn't that Dell's job? 05:14:02 they can use the openfirmware just as well can't they? 05:14:03 with a pc you bet the bios splash, the bootup screen, the weirdness of dealing with poorly written chipset drivers and so forth 05:14:08 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:14:11 Zhivago: so is there a portable serial lib or no? 05:14:30 they could control the user experience from the ground up and really give the user a good pc experience. 05:14:46 holycow, what's wrong with openfirmware? 05:14:48 and the hardware is so cheap, it really is doable once again 05:14:52 nothing 05:14:57 i'm just saying now that its cheap they can again 05:14:58 ralith: Is there a postable socket lib? 05:15:04 it could be done that way without much of a hassle then, couldn't it? 05:15:20 and that scares me 05:15:27 Zhivago: yes? 05:15:27 because? 05:15:46 i would preffer an open bios mobo of course, i'd pay a high premium for one with the right options 05:15:47 Zhivago: serial isn't sockets, though. 05:15:51 ralith: Then, sure. 05:16:11 usocket is not exactly what I had in mind. 05:16:19 Zhivago, ! 05:17:09 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:34 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 05:19:22 The problem is that "portable" is essentially meaningless. 05:19:40 What people mean is "conformant to standards X, Y and Z." 05:19:45 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 05:19:52 indeed 05:20:02 Where "X, Y and Z" happen to be their favourite standards. 05:20:23 yeah, i've gotten sour to standards after the open document iso microsoft fiasco indeed 05:20:25 In any case, it's pretty trivial to talk to a serial interface. 05:20:55 well for 20$ a pop and some wasted weeks toying around, this looks like fun 05:21:10 holycow: I've been thinking about garden automation, but I haven't gotten around to getting parts yet. 05:21:19 -!- das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:21:25 hehe :) hey you might be on to something :) 05:21:28 kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:21:48 Zhivago: in fact, "portable" usually means "works equivalently on all major platforms" 05:21:50 *holycow* imagines dancing gnomes 05:21:52 hahaha 05:22:06 Ralith: How does that differ from what I just said? 05:22:20 Zhivago: it's more or less trivial to identify the major platforms :P 05:22:36 Yeah, they're whatever you're prejudiced toward. 05:22:37 that one has a python interface as well 05:22:38 neat 05:23:17 Zhivago: that's not what "major" means. 05:23:32 So, what's the precise definition? 05:23:37 Zhivago: you planning on sticking to doing the control via lisp? 05:23:40 More than 30,000 years? 05:23:49 holycow: Yeah, or javascript. 05:24:18 holycow: With serial i/o it doesn't really matter what you use. 05:24:19 Zhivago: check with your local dictionary. 05:24:48 ralith: Oh, let's see -- it says that you are "talking out of your arse in a pathetic attempt to confuse the issue". 05:24:51 Zhivago: so that is the easiest inerface to work with i guess? 05:24:54 What does your dictionary say? 05:25:00 holycow: To me, at least. 05:25:07 holycow: Then you can test it using stty and cat. 05:25:19 *nod* oh right, that makes sense 05:25:26 Zhivago: I'll take it you concede the point, then? :P 05:25:40 -!- marioxcc [~user@201.132.143.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25:42 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 05:25:45 ralith: No. I'm waiting for you to define "major platform". Get on with it. 05:26:03 Zhivago: check with your local dictionary. 05:26:09 it's a pretty common word 05:26:14 I'm surprised you're not more familiar with it :P 05:26:16 ralith: It doesn't contain a definition for "major platform" you moron. 05:26:23 ralith: Quote your dictionary if you can. 05:26:23 indeed it doesn't 05:26:33 So, you concede the point, then. 05:26:40 of course! 05:26:44 how naive of me to challenge you. 05:26:45 Good. Now shut up. 05:27:27 hard to debate with ad hominem, after all. 05:27:28 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-58.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:27:34 Ralith: What ad hominem? 05:27:43 Ralith: Be sure to look up "ad hominem" before you reply. 05:28:20 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 05:28:30 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:28:52 Zhivago: the blatant personal attacks. 05:29:33 Ralith: I told you to look it up, you idiot. 05:29:41 Ralith: no ad hominem here, fwiw. 05:29:45 Ralith: It doesn't mean what you think it does. 05:29:56 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:03 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:32:51 kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:09 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:38:08 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:38:39 pkhuong: well, whatever it is, it's not conducive to meaningful discussion. 05:38:54 Ralith: Neither is refusing to define your terms. 05:39:23 Zhivago: it's plain english. 05:39:28 most people don't have trouble with that. 05:39:29 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:39:54 Ralith: Plain English is notoriously not well defined. 05:40:21 Zhivago: and yet civilization thrives. 05:40:23 and has cute names for the parts that are defined 05:40:37 Ralith: You said that it's easy to know what the "major platforms" are, and I pointed out that it means essentially whatever people's prejudices are. You lied about it being defined in the dictionary and refused to define it clearly. 05:40:45 (Future in the Past is my favourite tense name, ever) 05:41:04 Ralith: So let us know when you're ready to start to be honest. 05:44:35 p_l: how does that work? O.o 05:44:41 Zhivago: http://www.pololu.com/docs/0J7/4 ... that looks neat too 05:44:52 much more expensive tho 05:45:07 Zhivago: I'd respond, but I'm afraid I don't know what "you're ready" means. 05:45:19 you'll have to give me a precise definition. 05:46:01 Ralith: don't ask me, I couldn't find my way out of grammatical labirynth 05:46:09 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:46:33 Ralith: I think the only language where I actually understood *some* grammar was japanese 05:46:48 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-94-56.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:46:53 p_l: d'you have a reference? I'm genuinely curious, having considered myself a bit of a grammar nazi and never heard mention of anything so arcane. 05:46:54 (there's also polish, but that's more because it's my native language) 05:47:17 heh 05:47:31 Ralith: Unfortunately not, I used an old book on english grammar (a polish one :P) from I think 70s or 80s 05:47:40 heh, 'kay 05:47:48 best thing about english is that it isn't formalized like much older languages like slavic or middle eastern languages 05:47:53 My grammar usage is purely instinctual 05:47:55 its all made up 05:48:13 holycow: except despite formalization, slavic languages are much more free-form 05:48:23 no language can be rigidly defined, anyway 05:48:28 too organic a medium 05:48:48 Ralith: or it defines rules about modifying/creating new rules :) 05:48:51 heh maybe you are right 05:49:00 still won't be adhered to! 05:49:07 too many people who don't know/care coming up with slang. 05:49:23 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 05:49:31 too many metaphors entering so deeply into the common lexicon as to become plain language. 05:49:39 Ralith: Actually, the only surefire way to come up with non grammatical sentence in Polish would be to drop the verb and claim it's a sentence :p 05:49:59 At least I can't find another *surefire* way to do it :D 05:50:17 i always get a kick out of re-reading mark twains thrashing of german 05:50:19 as for "ungrammatical" japanese... just listen to some music xD 05:50:22 I find it pretty hard to believe that there are no expressions or w/e that don't really fit into the greater body. 05:50:45 and no vernacular that doesn't bother with the details 05:51:02 but perhaps that's just my monolinguality speaking. 05:52:09 you lithp, don't you, ralis? 05:52:16 it counts as a language 05:52:43 a lisp vernacular 05:52:45 now there's an idea. 05:53:17 Ralith: slavic languages have the fun thing that there's no positional dependency in syntax (sure, there are some common forms, but it's more like a "common phrase") 05:53:45 O.o 05:53:53 that sounds confusing 05:54:08 I spent few years in school drawing parse trees for sentences xD 05:54:55 so is NLP significantly easier in nonenglish? 05:54:57 I believe that English is unusually strict about word order. But I have no evidence to back that up :P 05:54:58 the only thing common is that a full sentence has at least two elements - subject and verb. Subject might be implied 05:55:07 Ralith: english is easier 05:55:22 that's counterintuitive 05:55:48 Ralith: because you have patterns like "when changing sentence to a question, switch places of subject and verb" etc. 05:56:12 nlp? neuro linguistic programming? 05:56:17 In polish, depending on the sentence, it might be easily done by changing period to question mark ;-) 05:57:23 while the equivalent of "switching places" would require adding extra elements to sentence 05:57:27 it strikes me as easier to check for a "?" than identify what the subject is. 05:57:42 Just out of interest, for slime/lisping, is XEmacs considered compatible? 05:57:56 isn't XEmacs dead? 05:57:57 Ralith: Except that English at least suggests where the verb and subject might be. Slavic languages allow it to be anywhere 05:58:20 Modius: XEmacs - not really. I personally recommend GNU Emacs 23.x 05:58:58 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 06:02:17 Ralith: btw - I'd go mad trying to do NLP capable of understanding some of the Japanese that I'm used to listening to :) 06:02:17 English uses an analytic grammar. Synthetic grammars tend to be easier to understand, but are often more ambiguous. 06:03:20 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 06:03:22 In the end formal models of NLP fail because syntax is mainly a crutch used to allow unknown readers to understand. 06:03:44 You need to be able to model the other person's knowledge to be able to do a decent job. 06:04:40 In synthetic grammars like Japanese or Korean that's especially true since you don't need to supply implicit placeholders in most cases. 06:04:55 hhuu [~hhuu@opensuse/member/xwhu] has joined #lisp 06:06:20 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:06:28 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:07:05 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:08:11 Ralith: btw, being a polish grammar nazi is *very* hard. Cause many things people go 'grammar nazi' about tend to blow up in their faces later 06:08:31 heh 06:08:39 (due to, for example, existence of two different verbs having the same meaning, that look *extremely* similar in certain inflections 06:08:58 reminds me of the dilbert cartoon about leet speak in emails, and in the final panel dilbert goes 'but you understood what it said, right?' 06:08:59 so people bitch that you inflected it incorrectly... except it's correct 06:11:11 at least we got the language simplified to three tenses >_< 06:11:12 p_l: The very concept of correct/incorrect is dubious when it comes to natural languages. 06:11:25 p_l: For one thing, it varies over time. 06:12:42 I think that you need to differentiate between the cases of known speaker-listener sets and unknown sets. 06:13:10 With unknown speakers and listeners I think you'll find that there are fairly good definitions of correct and incorrect. 06:13:55 And that these are mainly the product of literacy. 06:14:57 *p_l* just found on wikipedia at least 6 forms of "Alice has a cat" in polish, each basically meaning the same thing, except *usually* used differently 06:16:22 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 06:16:35 I've been thinking that it might be nice if a-b-c were a way to write (a b c), but it would require everything to support lists for names. 06:19:59 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:20:27 It would also allow you to write things like length-x or square-8 as applications. 06:20:49 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:20:57 I've thought something along those lines, to make a consistent way of grouping related functions that can doesn't involve gluing symbols together 06:20:58 Zhivago: if you ever do your lisp baserd serial controller project, document some of the process pls! :) 06:21:09 found a lot of c examples online 06:22:23 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-51-95-162.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:22:29 holycow: Well, it's just a matter of (a) setting the serial configuration (e.g., cffi to termios) 06:22:56 holycow: And then (b) doing file-i/o. 06:23:07 huh 06:23:15 holycow: You should be able to test it using stty and cat in unix. 06:23:22 well that maps well to what i was imagining originally. these c tutorials are very indepth 06:23:48 Are they for the polulu board you were looking at before? 06:23:56 what i had in mind with the flipping of the paddle is actually exactly that, read a file in and have the padle flip on/off depending on the file input indeed 06:23:58 Or are they for making your own PICs? 06:24:12 Zhivago: no not at all, generic serial manipulation 06:24:23 Well, forget those and man termios. 06:24:31 oh sweet 06:24:41 If you want windows, then you'll need to use their interface. 06:25:22 minion, paste 51791? 06:25:22 Paste number 51791: "a bid for the lucrative win32 serial port market" by hefner in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/51791 06:25:24 i'm 100% linux. i don't care one bit for osx or win 06:25:34 Then termios will do what you need. 06:36:28 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 06:37:10 Zhivago: thank you for all the info, your help is VERY much appreciated 06:37:19 holycow: Welcome and good luck. 06:37:27 i look forward to feeding .mp3's, .ogg and other things to the serial port just for kicks 06:37:28 hehehe 06:37:30 :) 06:37:46 but yes, i will give this a serious push indeed 06:38:26 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-11-107.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:38:55 holycow: You might also find http://roboblock.co.kr/goods/goods.htm?ps_ctid=12000000 an interesting baseline for price comparison. 06:39:24 heh, straight from where these things are manufactured :) 06:39:46 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-28-2.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:39:46 i'll take anything i can get! :) 06:40:24 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 06:41:17 -!- c|mell [~cmell@81.62.122.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:41:24 There is an English version, but the prices seem to be missing. 06:42:42 all good, this is giving me a framework to pull the data together. its one thing to say 'i want to do x' its another to have enough understading of the area and know where not to waste your time 06:43:14 holycow: Ok, there is another approach which is to use servos with direct RC control. 06:43:36 holycow: Only then you need to get a controller with an RF transmitter on it. 06:43:59 holycow: but it your actuators need to be distributed around the place without control lines ... 06:44:09 that sounds complicated. unlikely they will have native linux software. 06:44:31 No, they're controlled directly by a radio signal, like on an RC aeroplane. 06:45:03 All of the brains are in the controller, which you'd usually talk to via serial, again. 06:45:12 huh, thats interesting 06:45:16 well more googling 06:45:21 Good luck. 06:45:31 danke 06:48:56 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:48:59 holycow, why do you want to use lisp btw? 06:49:31 bjorkintosh: i like the way lisp 'reads' to me. i can understand what is going on when i read it. i can't tell what is going on in the imperative languages 06:49:54 i like the idea of the 'everything is a form' syntax, it appeals to me aesthetically 06:50:04 just dumb stuff, i'm just a hobbyists 06:50:20 holycow, what about forth? have you considered it for your project as well? 06:50:29 it'd make for interesting reading, whatever you choose... 06:50:32 i hope you document it. 06:51:13 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:51:15 i haven't really looked at forth at all. i do a bit in pyhton, ruby, tcl, that sort of thing. nothing considered real programming. 06:51:39 forth hasn't popped up on the radar for some reason 06:51:53 it's perfect for embedded hardware stuff. 06:52:11 and it's lisp like ... i think they're 3rd cousins twice removed. 06:52:19 neat 06:52:26 it isn't *that* lisp-like 06:52:44 hefner, re: 3rd cousins twice removed 06:52:54 but (it's been a while since i checked) 06:53:06 i think the secd machine is a stack based machine. 06:54:17 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:55:07 stack environment code dump. 06:56:31 AL^3QRAB [~H4cKeRzE@95.66.67.37] has joined #lisp 06:56:39 .Im  UsinG. H4cKeRzE 06:57:04 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 06:57:33 -!- AL^3QRAB [~H4cKeRzE@95.66.67.37] has quit [K-Lined] 06:59:14 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:00:45 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:01:03 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:43 Whoa! Harrop exposed his business plans on reddit and 07:03:00 link? and who is harrop? 07:03:02 ehe :) 07:03:13 "discussing our OCaml products on Lisp groups did far more for our sales than discussing them on OCaml groups" 07:03:27 I'm not sure how I can link to a specific comment in a reddit thread 07:03:27 ? 07:03:42 you can link to the page, and suggest a keyword search. 07:03:57 it's here: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/az6td/how_to_become_rich_as_a_programmer_even_if_nobody/ by user "jdh30" 07:04:13 but you have to know who harrop is for this to make sense, I guess 07:04:18 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04:42 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:42 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:04:42 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 07:08:17 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:08:20 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 07:11:18 Here's the direct link: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/az6td/how_to_become_rich_as_a_programmer_even_if_nobody/c0k69ak 07:12:24 protip: click the 'permalink' link at the bottom of the comment 07:14:05 hah only looked the top :-) thanks gigamonkey 07:14:13 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 07:14:29 who is harrop? 07:15:46 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:15:55 Fade: A pompous ass who has trolled comp.lang.lisp regularly in the past just to increase his sales. 07:16:10 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-042-237.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:25 benny`` [~benny@i577A7324.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:16:34 this comment is total drivel. 07:16:48 -!- benny`` is now known as benny` 07:18:45 saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:45 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 07:18:47 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:18:50 dunno, sounds reasonable to me. 07:20:08 Reasonable in that it probably works? Sure 07:20:23 -!- benny` is now known as benny 07:20:45 But his products are also full of this self-indulged pompousness 07:21:21 c|mell [~cmell@81.62.122.133] has joined #lisp 07:21:31 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.50] has joined #lisp 07:21:55 not unheard of in the it world, indeed 07:23:23 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.235] has joined #lisp 07:23:38 majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 07:25:55 xp_prg [~xp_prg3@c-98-234-218-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:00 anyone want to teach me lisp? 07:26:03 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 07:26:33 if you can afford $100/hr us i'm sure someone would be available :) 07:26:34 hehe 07:26:46 xp_prg: sure. Step 1. Buy my book. ;-) 07:26:58 just read successfull common lisp and gigagmonkeys book, indeed :) 07:27:03 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 07:27:08 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 07:27:26 what is your book? 07:28:07 gigabot [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-148-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:21 minion: pcl 07:28:22 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 07:28:50 *gigamonkey* just realized that gigabot's answer about PCL is not as useful as it could be. 07:29:01 -!- gigabot [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-148-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:29:02 Notice JDH doesn't target C#ers. You need an audience interested enough to seek out information but new enough to be swayed by his intra-language commentary. 07:29:09 gigamonkey I met you at the hacker dojo! 07:29:20 Oh, hey. 07:29:29 Were you in the Coders at Work discussion? 07:29:32 ya 07:29:44 Breech_ [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:30:04 how is the bio application going? 07:30:33 Pretty well. The bot I've been working on is actually part of that. 07:30:36 Or partly part of that. 07:32:44 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:32:49 There is a girl named Anne who uses clojure, she explained to me the approach you talked about 07:33:08 where you develop both the programming language and the solution to the problem at the same time 07:33:18 Ah, that approach. Yes. 07:33:33 is that not the approach you use? 07:34:02 No, I do. I was just about to ask what approach you meant and then you answered my question. 07:34:22 Though depending on the problem "programming language" might be too strong a term for it. 07:34:58 she helped me to understand how the read function creates s expressions 07:35:12 you then use parsers to use those s expressions 07:35:51 what I really, really, really want is the ability to use a prolog like approach with clojure 07:36:18 xp: There are a number of prolog-in-lisp implementations. 07:36:20 You might look at Peter Norvig's book, PAIP. He has a prolog-in-lisp 07:36:38 minion: tell xp_prg about paip 07:36:39 xp_prg: please look at paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 07:37:32 Okay. Bedtime for me. Goodnight folks. 07:37:39 goodnight :> 07:37:48 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:43:50 blue112 [~Blue@sen89-2-88-171-76-55.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:55 -!- blue112 [~Blue@sen89-2-88-171-76-55.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:43:55 blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has joined #lisp 07:46:37 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 07:46:39 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-148-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:49:37 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:49:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:50:01 Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:57:53 tankrim [~qsvans@c-09fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:59:14 jmbr_ [~jmbr@17.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:00:31 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-100-31.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00:32 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:02:16 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@134.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:02:53 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:03:11 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 08:04:07 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:04:49 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@17.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:58 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-100-31.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:06:33 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-100-31.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:58 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:07:47 pjb` [~t@65.Red-79-149-75.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:02 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-100-31.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:09:06 -!- pjb [~t@131.Red-79-149-89.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:09:37 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:12:03 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.17] has joined #lisp 08:12:14 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.50] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:12:46 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:15:18 [df] [~df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:25 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:16:51 Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:17:09 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:17:38 pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:17:43 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-100-31.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:23 -!- Foofie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:18:35 HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has joined #lisp 08:18:43 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:51 good morning 08:19:00 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-100-31.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:19:03 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:19:18 Moin moin! 08:19:46 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:21:10 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-100-31.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:21:28 hi mvilleneuve 08:21:32 -!- hhuu [~hhuu@opensuse/member/xwhu] has quit [Quit: hhuu] 08:22:23 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:23:02 Are there any caveats with the SBCL "--script" commandline switch? I'm assuming code will be as fast as if it were loaded and compiled using ASDF. (This is for the Goole AI Challenge, they're using SBCL for CL submissions.) 08:24:23 Fufie [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:57 Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 08:27:37 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:28:17 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:27 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:29:59 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 08:32:42 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:34:01 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:38:13 -!- xp_prg [~xp_prg3@c-98-234-218-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:39:48 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 08:40:24 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fdndsjsdxmbmstvn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41:10 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:41:13 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-duhtgcgedkdfzihp] has joined #lisp 08:41:57 chris__ [~chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 08:43:11 hello mvilleneuve, hello fe[nl]ix 08:43:45 -!- c|mell [~cmell@81.62.122.133] has quit [Quit: interview] 08:43:47 hi beach 08:45:09 jsoft_ [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:45:55 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-166.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:46:18 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:46:21 -!- chris__ [~chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 08:47:01 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:47:03 Breech_ [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:47:15 chris__ [~chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 08:55:19 -!- chris__ [~chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 09:00:27 [df]_ [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 09:18:38 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:21:41 is it expected that sb-simple-streams doesn't build on win32? 09:23:05 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:26:38 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:26:41 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 09:30:22 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:30:27 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-duhtgcgedkdfzihp] has left #lisp 09:30:37 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:41 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:32:51 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:54 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Client Quit] 09:34:57 fiveop [~fiveop@g229112143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:53 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wsfznlensziqtabf] has joined #lisp 09:36:22 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-166.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:37:23 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 09:37:23 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:37:23 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:37:37 -!- Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo7.181.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:38:34 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:42:39 -!- pjb` [~t@65.Red-79-149-75.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:43:31 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-166.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:43:31 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:44:22 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229112143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 09:44:27 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:18 anyone done web services stuff in CL? SOAP, WSDL, etc. 09:48:35 I seem to recall a cl-soap implementation somewhere. 09:48:49 yes, there is, but I am not fit to evaluate it 09:49:01 WSDL looks a whole lot like RPC 09:49:08 or at least IDL 09:49:55 PHP IDEs can generate code from WSDL 09:50:02 not sure if other languages can do it 09:50:46 <[df]> it shouldn't really be necessary in dynamic languages 09:51:35 fusss: i know that java people use WSDL's 09:51:39 to generate java code 09:51:53 guaqua: know of any specific tools that can handle this? 09:52:01 no idea, sorry :( 09:52:09 I need to orchestrate Salesforce with Zuora with a database 09:52:21 <[df]> fusss: to generate java? 09:52:32 I only know Lisp at the moment 09:52:38 haven't used Java since 1998 09:53:31 <[df]> dunno then, haven't used it in CL 09:53:38 <[df]> SOAP's pretty nasty stuff :( 09:53:46 if I can let the CTO use whatever BPLE, Java, rules engine crap he wants, and still be able to hack something atop of sbcl, that would be swell 09:54:13 I know, but it's all we got 09:54:33 <[df]> cl-soap looks rather incomplete, but worth a try 09:54:42 back when I could help it, I used REST APIs, XML-RPC, or even my own protocols 09:56:08 gtg, dinner time 09:56:10 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 09:56:52 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-042-237.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:57:02 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-41-140.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:58:11 is cltl2 and hyperspec more or less the same? 09:58:42 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student166-41.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:58:42 there are differences 09:58:51 major ones? 09:59:12 that depends what "major" means to do -- also I haven't read cltl2 so I cannot really comment 09:59:17 to you 09:59:39 cltl2 is said to be very nice to get the big picture 09:59:49 but for details, rather use the hyperspec 10:00:34 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:02:09 Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:03:17 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:03:17 -!- majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:04:13 minion: cltl2? 10:04:15 cltl2: "Common Lisp the Language, 2nd ed" is a book by Guy Steele that describes the state of Common Lisp as it was partway through the ANSI process. http://www.cliki.net/cltl2 10:05:51 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:08:38 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:06 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:10:23 trittweiler: thanks for that. 10:11:51 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:11:54 Tonijz [~tonijs@85.254.194.65] has joined #lisp 10:14:51 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:17:21 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 10:17:37 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:22:58 lispm [~joswig@e177122151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:14 ephcon [~ephcon@student166-64.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 10:25:53 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 10:28:59 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-11841.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:51 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:31:05 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 10:31:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:37:42 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wsfznlensziqtabf] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:40:00 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-znikjzodimbewxqb] has joined #lisp 10:41:23 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-znikjzodimbewxqb] has left #lisp 10:45:34 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ssxziqtxxmuskwsc] has joined #lisp 10:46:32 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082CEE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:20 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:47:36 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:24 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-11841.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:49:52 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082C397.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:50:01 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:51:18 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 10:52:36 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:52:45 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:06 konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has joined #lisp 10:53:10 lukego [~lukegorri@119.110.101.218] has joined #lisp 10:56:53 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Gauss Eleminated] 11:02:23 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:08:49 bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-193-55.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:51 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 11:11:48 CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.32.49] has joined #lisp 11:14:01 silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has joined #lisp 11:19:37 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:19:41 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:25:53 addled_ [~adl@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:35 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-111-79.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:29:47 hi lukego 11:29:51 howdy! 11:29:55 just booking tickets :) 11:29:59 yay 11:30:02 how's life? 11:30:15 good. have some time to breathe :) 11:30:21 cantor [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has joined #lisp 11:32:18 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 11:33:59 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:14 I'll land in Vienna 10:25am on the friday. are we all staying near metalab? 11:43:45 well that's early I'll arive in the evening 11:45:24 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-34-7.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:25 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:46:29 lukego: http://www.booking.com/directions.en.html?id=132755808 11:46:55 lukego: that appears to be in walking-distance to metalab 11:49:49 So can I ask what's happening in Vienna? 11:50:18 frodef, conspiracy 11:50:32 I *knew* it! 11:50:43 frodef, bunch of us are meeting there at 27th feb, wanna join? 11:50:54 *will meet 11:51:07 Is it LIsp related? 11:51:10 *easyE* lives in Vienna. 11:51:19 At the MetaLab? 11:51:23 yes 11:51:44 trittweiler: thanks, want to (most likely), but can't. 11:51:59 what's MetaLab, then? 11:52:06 Hacker space. 11:52:11 (except an interesting name..) 11:53:02 -!- jsoft_ [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:53:22 -!- blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has quit [Quit: May the kebab be with you] 11:53:44 Which may sound mysterious, but its bascially just a space where people can hang to work and colloborate. 11:53:44 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 11:54:00 http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/ 11:54:03 easyE: it's 11:54:19 jdz: yeah. 11:55:15 Believe it or not I actually care about such distinctions, but find myself degenerating into slovenly chat in my elder years. 11:56:05 -!- PatrickMcLaren [~Patrick@ppp118-209-197-239.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 11:56:46 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:08:32 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:09:19 easyE, so you'll have time on 27th? 12:10:01 -!- cantor [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:35 cantor [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has joined #lisp 12:11:52 minion, memo for antifuchs: You should blog about the Vienna meeting; also let's settle for a time. 12:11:52 Remembered. I'll tell antifuchs when he/she/it next speaks. 12:12:31 -!- CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.32.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:15:24 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:15:25 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:16:30 i guess it is ok for tests to fail on threaded OS X build? 12:16:51 i have like 10 of them with "invalid exit status" 12:17:41 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:19:55 jdz: are those the SB-POSIX tests? 12:20:43 easyE: don't think so, they are like 3 clos related, debug, gc, timer and threads 12:21:25 Then that's something other than I have knowledge about. 12:21:42 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 12:23:45 hello 12:24:35 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]] 12:30:18 jdz: But the sbcl-1.0.35 threaded variant builds for me. 12:30:28 Without the sort of test failures you write about. 12:30:51 easyE: yes, it does build and it does work, but some of the tests fail (i aussume the invalid exit status means failure) 12:31:45 Hmmm. I didn't think I got test failures like you mention. The build via MacPorts (which I am sort of reluctantly maintaining) fails if the tests do as far as I knew. 12:32:29 jdz pasted "sbcl 1.0.35.6 tests on OS X" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94562 12:32:38 jollygood [~jollygood@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:34:04 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.235] has joined #lisp 12:38:08 jdz: is it on Snow Leopard 12:38:15 yes 12:40:22 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@119.110.101.218] has quit [Quit: lukego] 12:40:51 lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 12:40:58 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-193-55.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 12:40:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:41:00 dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:43:31 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:21 jdz: they're not exactly failures. If you run the tests scripts separately, most work fine, but since the framework likes batching them, one really bad failure and you get a lot of such errors. 12:54:38 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:55:48 i just asked if there is anything to worry about and maybe provide some help with fixing stuff... 12:56:39 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:44 -!- tankrim [~qsvans@c-09fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:57:53 That's a "no, not unexpected, but you can run the failing test files individually to make sure". 12:59:22 I have a slot in a CLOS object that should update another slot when it is written to 12:59:56 I tried adding an :after method to perform the update, but it only seems to be called when the first slot is read from, not written to 13:00:12 hehe, i get "unexpected success" for 4 tests in debug.impure.lisp 13:00:13 spacebat: Use an :after method on the slot writer. 13:00:38 what if I just use :accessor 13:00:48 do I have to specify :reader and :writer? 13:00:52 jdz: that's from nyef's new backtrace fix. 13:01:25 spacebat: (defmethod (setf myaccessor) :after (new-value (obj myclass)) (setf (otherslot obj) value)) 13:01:33 spacebat: [untested] 13:01:39 O 13:01:43 spacebat: Accessor is fine. 13:01:43 I'll try that, thanks 13:02:00 Good morning lispers. 13:02:08 hello Quadrescence 13:02:17 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:03:16 works like a charm, thanks beach++ 13:03:25 spacebat: No problem. 13:03:52 http://iwritethecode.blogspot.com/2009/12/parenthesis-hell-programming-language.html 13:06:12 elegant weapons, for a more civilized age 13:08:34 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 13:09:23 -!- addled [~adl@89.Red-83-36-62.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:10:17 pkhuong: ok, only 2 of the test files are problematic: timer.impure and threads.impure 13:10:58 and timer.impure is complaining that my computer might be too slow 13:11:20 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:32 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:35 salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:03 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:09 jdz annotated #94562 "seems to lock up here" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94562#1 13:13:33 Has there been any serious discussion on having a statically typed lisp? (of course you may pardon my question if you guys are busy :) 13:14:29 (I am aware of common lisp's facilities for typing; I am sure, however, you understand what I mean more by my question) 13:14:35 Quadrescence: would you call that a lisp? would seem more like Haskell with s-expression syntax 13:14:36 Quadrescence: Not in my opinion. But the reason for that is simple: nobody knows how to define "a Lisp". For instance, if you include "dynamically typed" in that definition, then there can be no such thing. 13:14:49 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 13:15:13 Quadrescence: I suggest you start by defining "a Lisp" in order for such a discussion to be even the slightest meaningful. 13:16:19 Quadrescence: I could ask the same thing about a Lisp without automatic memory management", without macros, without parentheses, without symbols, without recursion, etc, etc, etc. 13:16:21 beach: I guess you are right; "lisps" have naturally been dynamically typed. 13:16:40 I guess I'll think about my question a bit more. 13:16:48 Quadrescence: Thanks. 13:17:13 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student166-64.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:18:59 ML ? 13:19:42 lispm: As I said, it would be a meaningless discussion without a definition of what "a Lisp" is. 13:20:28 there is likely no fixed definition, but something like a space of Lisp-like languages 13:21:08 if we say 'Common Lisp' with static typing, then no, I don't think something like that exists 13:21:12 haskell with s-exps sounds interesting 13:21:20 spacebat: liskell 13:22:12 http://clemens.endorphin.org/ILC07-Liskell-draft.pdf 13:22:39 lispm: But that space is likely to vary from person to person, so I suggest avoiding the use of "a Lisp" completely, in favor of a set of properties that are mandatory, as set of properties that are allowed, and a set of properties that must be excluded. 13:24:15 if we define one of the properties: no static type checking, then the question is answered ;-) 13:26:24 Qi 13:26:28 Typed Scheme 13:27:03 beach: Tell me what you think of this: a lisp is a parenthetical, homoiconic language, whose abstract syntax is represented directly as lists which can me manipulated with the evaluator prior to actually being executed by the evaluator. Memory is managed, functions are first class. 13:28:08 Or at least tell me if you think the duality of data and code, and the ability to manipulate either in the same way, is the primary distinguishing feature of lisp 13:28:12 of a lisp* 13:28:45 Quadrescence: That's a fine definition of what you think Lisp is. But I hope the purpose was not to have me agree that this is the only such definition, nor even that I agree with it. I thought you wanted to know whether a language coresponding to that description + static typing would be a good idea or interesting. 13:29:23 Oh, certainly not. I am not asking you to say "this is THE definition". But I am asking if it is a sensible definition for the "problem at hand" 13:29:31 Quadrescence: However, if I am wrong, and you really wanted concensus on what "a Lisp" is, without mentioning dynamic typing, I think you can forget it. 13:30:12 I wanted to know the former: whether you think it would be a good idea or interesting. 13:30:34 H4ns [~Hans@pD4B9EAD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:09 Me personally? No. I really appreciate the dynamic aspect of Lisp, i.e., that its semantics are defined as a sequence of interactions. I suspect that makes it hard to combine with static typing. 13:31:23 many thinks are interesting, that would not mean that one would want to use that 13:31:29 things 13:31:37 Quadrescence: But you can certainly use that as a basis for a discussion I suppose. 13:31:48 for me the dynamic nature of Lisp is a key feature 13:32:11 I'd agree to beach's statement 13:34:07 Makes sense to me. I guess when I really think hard about it, it's hard to see enforcing types in a lisp; I guess it'd be like turning the soft clay that Lisp is, into hard little bricks to build with instead. 13:36:30 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ssxziqtxxmuskwsc] has left #lisp 13:38:24 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:44 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 13:39:58 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:52 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:56 -!- salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3636, sources date: 20090924, built on: 2010-02-08 12:52:49 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:45:23 -!- cantor [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 13:45:33 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:50:12 spacebat: Also you might like http://blog.clemens.endorphin.org/2009/01/liskell-standalone.html 13:52:18 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 13:55:54 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:48 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 13:59:27 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 14:02:38 lukego [~lukegorri@130.253.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 14:03:21 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:19 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:04:19 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:04:19 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:05:54 -!- RaceCondition 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[~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:26:06 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:26:08 *sigh* 15:26:33 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:30:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:25 -!- maxalwings [~user@196.12.155.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:46 Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:10 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:38:43 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:34 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:21 alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-1092.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:47:30 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-166.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:09 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:49:20 -!- Fufie [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:49:21 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:51:04 rough day beach? 15:51:30 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177122151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:52:02 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:57 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:53:27 TDT: Boring! I spend the day grading student reports :( 15:54:04 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.17] has quit [Quit: off] 15:54:14 ... which resulted in my email backlog increasing by 50 or so messages :( 15:54:25 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:55:29 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:01 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.17] has joined #lisp 15:56:31 lispm [~joswig@e177120022.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:41 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:58:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1] 15:59:06 leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:52 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 15:59:56 leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:40 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-159.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:43 heh, well it's a monday too which makes things that much worse :) 16:01:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:02:36 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:02:44 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:05:53 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:37 kwinz3 [kwinz@d86-33-115-99.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 16:10:37 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:15:43 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:21:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.92.2] 16:22:06 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:23:04 -!- lithper2__ is now known as lithper2_ 16:23:53 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:24:31 TDT: Exactly! 16:27:36 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:31:22 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:23 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177120022.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:40 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:33:15 Greetings lispers. 16:33:26 hello tmh 16:34:02 Hi beach, haven't been in here at the same time as you in a while. How is it going? 16:36:01 tmh: Not doing much useful these days. Only work. What about you? 16:37:25 beach: Same. My productivity is inversely proportional to my time on #lisp. I'm trying to track my time better so I can bill better. Also trying to implement "Getting Things Done" by David Allen. 16:37:45 tmh: I wish you good luck! 16:38:43 milanj [~milan@93.87.116.93] has joined #lisp 16:39:33 tmh: Have you looked at the orgmode for GTD? 16:39:48 tmh: I feel that on #lisp I actually have some purpose (helping people with Lisp questions). The rest of my work is feels pretty stale. 16:40:58 leo2007: I have and decided that the overhead of learning and implementing orgmode was more than I could afford at the moment. 16:41:33 leo2007: Plus, I wanted some that was more oriented towards the "cloud". 16:43:02 -!- LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:43:25 tmh: what is the "cloud"? 16:44:00 leo2007: Corporate jargon for the internet. 16:45:04 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:45:14 tmh: i see ;) 16:45:34 leo2007: I wanted to use org mode, read through "Organize Your Life in Plain Text" by Bernt Hansen several times. Ultimately, I wanted something that I could access from my workstation, laptop and phone. Getting org mode to that level of integration was more work than was worth it to me. 16:45:57 tmh: tramp-mode. 16:46:24 s/-mode// ? 16:46:36 pkhuong: heh :-) 16:46:58 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has joined #lisp 16:47:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:49:08 tmh: that post is a bit too complicated than necessary. Have you looked at JW's post: http://www.newartisans.com/2007/08/using-org-mode-as-a-day-planner.html? 16:49:15 He is the author of planner. 16:49:21 planner.el 16:49:24 disorganization often means you're getting a lot of things done. 16:50:15 If I were to plan my day in detail, I would do even fewer interesting things, and even more administration, which would make my life more miserable. 16:50:16 lithper2_: or trying to. 16:50:50 leo2007: I reviewed everything that was linked on the Org Mode site, so I know I saw it, but never read it in detail. 16:51:12 As it is now, I use the French method of silently not reacting until someone reminds me, or they forget, which meant the task wasn't that important. 16:52:01 fiveop [~fiveop@g229112143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:52:13 beach: let me remind you to write some lisp 16:52:33 hahaha 16:52:44 tmh: the beauty is once you get it up and running you have a system that's completely under your control ;) 16:52:52 stassats`: Thanks! I had totally forgotten :) 16:52:54 that works when you have escalating, progressive reminders 16:54:21 *Fade* curses the ticketing system and its escalating progressive reminders. 16:56:00 charlie [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:00 -!- charlie is now known as tsuru`` 16:56:20 leo2007: I actually had quite a few org mode files generated with my tasks and was working on learning GNUS and calendar, trying to integrate it with my Google mail and calendar. It was just taking too much time, so I fell back on just using Gmail/calendar/task directly. 16:56:37 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:56:51 Google tasks are a little crude, but work for now. 16:57:54 leo2007: Trust me, I tried org mode, spent a fair amount of time on it and decided that I needed something with less overhead. 16:58:25 pen and paper here (: 16:58:38 tmh: ;) 16:58:55 ryepup1 [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 17:00:08 -!- ryepup [~ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:00:30 tmh: emacs is a bit outdated when it comes to tasks like this. For example, it is difficult to integrate its calendar with other systems'. 17:03:07 leo2007: Blasphemy! 17:03:40 leo2007: It was I that was unworthy to unleash the power of emacs because of my laziness. 17:03:58 Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:31 all problems in Emacs are fixed with SMOP 17:07:11 and duck tape, can't forget duck tape 17:07:32 -- even if it's for taping the programmer to his chair :P 17:12:15 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 17:14:15 -!- fmu [root@an9iex1i.u10r.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:14:15 fmu [root@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 17:14:38 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:38 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-haymcqyxbfyrrxdv] has joined #lisp 17:22:52 -!- silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has quit [Quit: silenius] 17:23:53 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:26 -!- fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has left #lisp 17:24:49 fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 17:24:56 -!- fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has left #lisp 17:25:46 fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 17:28:03 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:28:16 -!- fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:29:25 I thought it was for recording ducks 17:29:35 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:30:01 cmm: you're thinking of a ducktaphone 17:30:53 OmniMancer2 [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:31:15 Xach: that's where you *put* the duck tape, see 17:31:25 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-138-134.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:32:50 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:34:08 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:34:13 Ogedei [~user@e178225067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:37:51 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:38:50 -!- dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:41:47 Krystof [~csr21@cpc2-dals3-0-0-cust104.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:05 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:45:42 It doesn't help that emacs dates are not aware of time zones.... 17:46:26 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-254-36.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:03 Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:42 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 17:55:38 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:56:29 rpg: Could you summarize what you change did? 17:57:03 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:57:28 I mean it's not helpful if you're talking about some backwards incompatibility but do not mention it in words how things changed 17:57:44 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-206.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:58:29 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:01 jewel [~jewel@41.30.183.200] has joined #lisp 18:00:42 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:02:39 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:03:25 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:54 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:04:57 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:27 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 18:06:29 anyone here who has hacked on ECL? How did you create a TAGS file? 18:06:58 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:07:58 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-149-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:06 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:09:25 xp_prg [~xp_prg3@c-98-234-218-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:56 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Client Quit] 18:09:57 -!- meltingwax [~meltingwa@c-76-106-58-123.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:10 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-254-36.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:11:15 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.52.110.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 18:11:59 xp_prg: How's the Lisping going? 18:12:18 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:24 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:15:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 18:15:36 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:15:43 ephcon [~ephcon@student167-211.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 18:19:33 does it matter in terms of efficiency in CL whether I use #(1 2) vs. (1 . 2) to represent a *pair* of numbers? (elt x 0) vs. (car x) etc 18:20:07 (1 . 2) uses less memory 18:20:25 but that's impl dependent... 18:20:28 in all implementations? 18:20:40 i think yes 18:20:42 I want to avoid impl dependancy for those decisions 18:20:59 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-37-222.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:21:08 just wondering if the standard says something about representation of basic types 18:21:20 jsfb: consider a complex, too, when representing a pair of numbers. 18:21:56 I wouldn't on conceptual grounds since these are coordinates in 2d , always real 18:22:04 abstract it and return when it will be a performance problem 18:22:14 jsfb: that sounds like an ideal use of complex numbers. 18:22:43 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-2883.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:22:44 that's always my approach stassats` but I'm just curious about the standard 18:23:27 jsfb: isn't this premature optimization? 18:23:31 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-206.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:23:46 no because I'm abstracting it anyway, I'm just curious 18:24:09 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-22-82-249-111-62.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:42 jsfb: can you effectively hide the detail behind a class? then that detail lives in one easy to change place in your code? 18:25:16 of course, that's the idea, but that wasn't the issue, the issue is one of what the standard says about vectors vs something else etc. 18:25:41 it doesn't say 18:26:05 I thought maybe someone knows off hand if there is any comment in the standard about such matters. stassats` thanks, that's all I was wondering 18:26:35 i though a pair used 1 cons, while a list uses at least 2 - so wouldn't a pair take less memory? 18:27:07 (sorry - you mentioned vector - so this prolly doesn't apply) 18:27:52 It "should" be more efficient I think to use (a . b) but that depends on how the compiler optimizes, maybe #(a b) can be put into 1 word if they are bounded types I don't know 18:28:26 <_3b__> did you specify what sort of 'efficiency' you want? 18:28:48 I'm not worried about it if the standard says nothing on it, then it becomes an impl dependency 18:28:55 <_3b__> a cons might use less memory, but a typed array or complex can probably be operated on more quickly for some types 18:28:58 The efficiency would be speed primarily 18:29:32 specialized array can hold unboxed values 18:29:37 but, since I know it will never be more than 2 items speed in a dotted pair should be pretty fast 18:29:46 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:29:49 <_3b__> and for operations that map to operations defined on complexes, the implementation might do optimizations you couldn't do from portable CL code (SSE for example) 18:30:12 you'll have lots of these right? so what are the data access needs for your 2D points? 18:30:55 yes, and on that basis I wouldn't exclude complex as a way to squeeze out some cycles etc 18:31:32 If your points are floats, complexes may use less space than conses. 18:31:39 many lists of them, not needing random access 18:32:07 all bounded integers 18:32:13 Axius [~hi@109.97.55.116] has joined #lisp 18:32:47 anyway, I've got the scoop, it's a minor thing I'm just learning lisp so I go on premature tangents 18:33:51 tcr: any TAGS file, or something more specific/useful for ecl? 18:34:46 tcr: if there is not too much hairy macrology in ecl's C sources, cscope may be a better choice than etags 18:35:13 cscope was inspired by a lisp program called masterscope. 18:36:21 dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 18:36:26 oh, that sounds AI-ish. 18:36:35 demmeln1 [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:35 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:59 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has left #lisp 18:37:06 cmm: ecl uses a custom preprocessor, too, but more sanely than clisp 18:38:42 tcr: you might be out of luck with either [ce]tags or cscope, then 18:38:55 _deepfire: are you here= 18:38:56 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-23-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:40:34 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-11-107.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:41:08 Kenjin [~josesanto@84.18.242.228] has joined #lisp 18:41:09 -!- demmeln1 [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:42:18 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student167-211.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:29 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:43:31 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 18:45:12 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 18:45:17 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.52.110.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:46:03 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.30.183.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:47:20 unicode_ [~user@95.214.43.131] has joined #lisp 18:47:42 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:34 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 18:49:07 -!- Axius [~hi@109.97.55.116] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:49:40 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:53 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-37-222.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 18:53:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:55:13 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 18:55:30 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:56:12 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:41 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:58:13 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 18:58:32 posix pid_t 18:58:32 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for pid_t. 18:58:38 -!- sjbach [~sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:58:51 tcr: I was off at lunch. 18:59:20 tcr: My patch to ASDF is not backwards-compatible because if you have a system Y that depends on X, and X changes, Y will recompile. 19:00:04 how is that not backwards-compatible? 19:00:22 I mean how can that behaviour break something? 19:01:19 It's not backwards-compatible, but I have a hard time seeing how a more conservative recompilation policy could actully break anything. 19:01:31 (Of course, I may have screwed it up, too!) 19:01:55 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.52.110.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 19:02:54 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has joined #lisp 19:04:08 prxq [~mommer@f052212176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:04:13 -!- OmniMancer2 [~OmniMance@122-57-4-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:04:46 hi 19:05:14 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:05:32 tcr: I'd like to encourage you to have a look at the modifications to TRAVERSE; this is in the very core of ASDF, so it's important we get it right. 19:06:09 *Xach* wonders if his hackish asdf::traverse methods will break 19:07:32 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc2-dals3-0-0-cust104.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:07:59 Xach: Please have a peek at the git repo web page and see --- you should be able to do that without having to checkout. The online diff may be good for highlighting the changes. 19:08:19 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-117.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:08:31 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-23-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:10:04 *rpg* always has a vaguely unclean feeling after introducing a dynamic variable. 19:10:19 *gigamonkey* feel the same way 19:10:30 francogrex [~user@91.180.91.87] has joined #lisp 19:10:56 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-23-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:12:21 moocow [~new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 19:12:49 Now that I think about it, I think it's possible that a recursive call to traverse, with *forcing* = t will activate dependencies that shouldn't be activated. I bet the first loop in the main body of TRAVERSE should have (*forcing* = nil) wrapped around it. 19:13:00 triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:13:43 Yep.... 19:14:03 I need to come up with a test that will investigate this behavior. 19:14:16 I'm running clozure and would like to run Elephant but it seems that it will have support for clozure in the next release. 19:15:21 What are my options? Are there other similar tools? I could try run SBCL, question is will it run on my Mac, my OS dev environment. 19:15:39 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-147-81.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:47 triyo: sbcl will run fine on your mac. 19:16:02 *Xach* uses sbcl on his mac a lot 19:16:35 skateenjoi003 [~skateenjo@190.154.247.13] has joined #lisp 19:16:39 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:50 Xach: to enable multi-threading support on mac with SBCL, is there anything special I have to do? 19:16:59 triyo: you'll have to compile sbcl yourself if you want threads; otherwise it should be okay 19:17:08 I heard SBCL works nicely with Linux threads... 19:17:30 triyo: yes, recompile, as rsynnott said. 19:17:38 it USED to be a bit crashy, especially while exercising many threads (benchmarking a hunchentoot app would reliably kill it a year or so ago) but recent versions seem fine 19:17:38 i've been very happy with sbcl and linux threads. 19:17:56 (this is on MacOS only; never had any real problems on linux) 19:18:30 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:32 Me, too. I use SBCL on my Mac with threads. But the multi-threading I do tends to be just "single threaded program with some threading at the edges for I/O." 19:18:46 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:19:25 I'm looking to do web dev. So wish to use hunchentoot, so multi-threading support is important 19:19:41 So build from source ith multi-thread support is the way to go? 19:19:52 triyo: is your site running on a mac os x server? 19:20:05 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 19:20:36 Actually, my dev box is a Macbook pro but deployment env will be CentOS. 19:20:50 Love my Macbook so don't want to develop onanything but it :) 19:21:01 triyo: if you want to use sbcl, and hunchentoot, yep, you should build sbcl with multi-threading 19:21:10 cool 19:21:22 I'll give it a quick go 19:21:25 you could alternatively use ccl, but probably best use the same platform in development and production 19:21:42 -!- skateenjoi003 [~skateenjo@190.154.247.13] has quit [Quit: skateenjoi003] 19:21:47 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:21:58 triyo: IIRC, it's just a matter of sticking a magic form in a single file and letting the compilation scripts do their thing. 19:22:57 rsynnott: I need Elephant, it has no support for ccl yet :( 19:23:15 I'm currently running ccl 1.4 19:23:22 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:23:28 triyo: it does; it just calls it openmcl 19:23:52 though I'm not sure how well-maintained it is; I used to use it on ccl 1.0 or so 19:23:59 Hmmm, "Elephant currently runs on SBCL, Allegro, Lispworks, OpenMCL (< 1.0) and CMUCL (which is no longer supported). ClozureCL will be supported in the upcoming release." 19:24:15 ->"ClozureCL will be supported in the upcoming release" 19:25:16 do you need a release? 19:26:35 stassats`: not really, you suggesting I get from source? 19:27:04 yes 19:28:03 cool 19:28:07 *Xach* looks around for sbcl committers in order to advocate for michaelw's logical pathname translation patch 19:28:10 bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-193-55.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:24 I'm trying to figure out what 'the' is all about. Is it a kind of assertion? a hint to the compiler? what? 19:29:32 "Parsing is considered a solved problem. Unfortunately, this view is naïve, rooted in the widely believed myth that programming languages exist." 19:29:33 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:43 -!- francogrex [~user@91.180.91.87] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:29:49 ajazz [~ajazz@pool-95-83-74-197.ptcomm.ru] has joined #lisp 19:30:00 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-34-7.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:07 clhs the 19:30:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm 19:30:26 stassats`: That's what I just read ;) 19:30:29 *tmh* hands prxq "Non-sequitor of the Day" award. 19:30:52 bytecolor: I understand your confusion. 19:31:01 bytecolor: it's used as any other type specifications 19:31:03 Although, I do like the quote, can't recall where it is from, though. 19:31:07 zeugma [~user@lnk2-themill-gw.binary.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:27 tmh: it's a recent article. http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2010/2/69354-a-few-billion-lines-of-code-later/fulltext 19:31:39 well, fsvo recent 19:31:42 bytecolor: to answer your questions, sometimes both, sometimes the either one 19:31:56 prxq: Nice quotation. It is a solved problem only if you consider 1960s batch languages (of which there are still quite a few these days). 19:33:46 prxq: Try incremetal parsing in a text editor like Emacs or in an IDE like Eclipse. 19:33:54 it continues. "The C language does not exist; neither does Java, C++, and C#" :-) 19:33:59 bytecolor: it's a promise, and the compiler is free to do things based on that promise (or not). 19:34:33 -!- ajazz [~ajazz@pool-95-83-74-197.ptcomm.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:34:45 beach: I imagine. The context of the quote is an article on a commercial tool for static analysis. 19:35:12 it's full of scary anecdotes 19:35:46 They could be true. Most of what goes on in the software industry is scary. 19:37:15 *beach* needs to get his email backlog down :( 19:38:06 "mark all as read" 19:38:07 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:28 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:38:32 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:34 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:34 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.168.37.45] has joined #lisp 19:39:34 erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:41:00 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:14 haha, fuck, it took me half an hour to find out the mistake in foo = sprintf(foo, "something: %d", bar()); 19:41:52 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.168.37.45] has quit [Client Quit] 19:42:01 tcr: That's what you get from using inferior languages. 19:42:04 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:42:16 -!- triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: triyo] 19:42:20 Lispism 19:42:29 tcr: the cast between char * and int should be flagged by your compiler fairly easily. 19:42:49 yeah sure it did but I couldn't make sense of it 19:42:52 provided he used the right flags. 19:43:20 beach: who doesn't? (: 19:43:55 Totally hit a blind spot in my brain 19:44:07 pkhuong: My students! 19:44:26 abugosh1 [~Adium@2002:cee1:66e7:b:21b:63ff:fec5:5b19] has joined #lisp 19:44:35 beach: that can only be your fault! 19:44:44 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:09 hello, sbcl committer pkhuong. 19:45:23 Xach: hello. I don't understand pathnames. 19:45:24 pkhuong: I suppose in some way that is true. Howver, despite what I tell them, they don't listen. Again, that is probably my fault. 19:45:43 pkhuong: the only two people who care about logical pathnames in sbcl would really love to see the patch merged :) 19:46:00 triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:46:36 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 19:46:36 beach: students never listen :-) 19:46:36 triyo: I know that elephant (at least the development version) runs on ccl. www.lamsight.org (which runs linux) uses elephant with ccl. 19:46:36 beach: I used to refuse to help them if they didn't. 19:46:38 or rather, rarely, and never all the time 19:46:48 "selectively" 19:46:51 prxq: Yeah, and the crazy thing is I told them last year :) 19:47:18 pkhuong: You must be known as a tough teacher. 19:47:26 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:48:12 tcr: arguably, although the selection criterion verges on the bizarre :-) 19:48:16 beach: TA. It was java, but same story. 19:48:32 tcr: always remember that gcc only can do proper error messages when the optimizer runs :) 19:49:23 the error message was ok in retrospect 19:49:41 pkhuong: Yeah, I can see it now. 19:49:59 tcr: the same is said about oracles 19:50:22 hah 19:50:30 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-209-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:25 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.168.37.45] has joined #lisp 19:51:27 drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 19:51:32 You can blame gcc all you want it was actually me who didn't read the message carefully (didn't notice the "when assigning") 19:52:05 Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo7.181.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:09 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:52:10 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:52:32 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:20 -!- erjag is now known as varjag 19:53:22 mega1_ [~quassel@3e44b1fe.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:54:05 When running elephant:open-store I get -> Serious errors encountered during compilation of "/Users/alen/src/clbuild/source/elephant/src/db-cls..." -> #P"/Users/alen/src/clbuild/source/elephant/src/db-clsql/sql-controller.lisp" 19:54:11 Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-186.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:54:19 and what's the error? 19:56:09 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:56:48 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e70ca05.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:57:12 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-117.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:58:38 -!- unicode_ [~user@95.214.43.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:59:29 just says "[Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]" are you referring to the backtrace? 20:00:25 cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:27 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:00:30 i refer to compilation log 20:00:37 unicode [~user@95.214.71.104] has joined #lisp 20:00:39 there should be the actual error 20:00:54 or a warning 20:01:19 ephcon [~ephcon@n250-33.mtholyoke.edu] has joined #lisp 20:01:28 deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:01:33 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.71.104] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:05 cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:07 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:02:23 prxq: that's an interesting article: Why is it when I run your tool, I have to reinstall my Linux distribution from CD?" ;) 20:03:46 stassats`: I see some warning during the compile: ";Compiler warnings for "home:src;clbuild;source;elephant;src;db-clsql;sql-controller.lisp.newest" : > In SQLITE3-HARMLESS-READ: Too few arguments in call to #: 1 argument provided, at least 2 required. 20:04:54 triyo: elephant tends to be aggressively committed to the repo. You might want to find a safe-looking revision. 20:05:21 haha a few hours ago he was recommended to use HEAD 20:05:21 I see 20:05:33 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:05:42 what's this? "2.2 Good Lisp Programming is Hard" by rp gabriel. 20:05:48 -!- hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:05:52 http://naggum.no/worse-is-better.html 20:05:54 exactly, I feel like I'm being pulled in different directions :) 20:05:55 have you guys read this?! 20:06:44 I wander if its not the settings in my-config.sexp 20:07:04 bjorkintosh: that's a famous article 20:07:55 bytecolor: right. it gets better, trust me :) 20:09:15 triyo: easily solved by avoiding elephant in favour of rucksack! :) 20:09:15 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:15 tcr: that's interesting (: I definitely remember messages to the ML indicating that a certain feature was known to be broken in the latest commit, etc. 20:09:15 brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has joined #lisp 20:09:15 drewc: or avoiding the DB. 20:09:25 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.52.110.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:09:27 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@n250-33.mtholyoke.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:09:38 oh.. he's using the sql store too... worst of both worlds 20:10:42 -!- InvisibleTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 20:10:50 Hun: btw what is the reason for that? 20:12:50 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:14:26 ok, last one. "it's difficult to be extravagantly nonsensical in a harmless way" 20:16:34 jdz [~jdz@84.237.142.223] has joined #lisp 20:18:08 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:19:46 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:25 -!- milanj [~milan@93.87.116.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:22:22 ephcon [~ephcon@n250-33.mtholyoke.edu] has joined #lisp 20:24:12 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:25:02 Anybody have a pointer to an article about code reviews that carries over nicely to Lisp? 20:26:01 milanj [~milan@79.101.170.135] has joined #lisp 20:26:13 cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:18 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:27:04 cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:45 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:31 hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 20:30:51 -!- abugosh1 [~Adium@2002:cee1:66e7:b:21b:63ff:fec5:5b19] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:31:01 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-22-82-249-111-62.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:31:34 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 20:31:41 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:03 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-214-146.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:29 tcr: GCC only analyzes the control flow of the program when the optimizer is turned on 20:34:41 so it can only then produce warnings about uninitialized variables and such 20:34:43 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 20:35:00 -!- jollygood [~jollygood@129.71.215.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:35:25 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:38:15 flip215 [~flip@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:38:53 Hi. I'm trying to rebuild my sbcl core file, to get a change in sb-posix. 20:38:55 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:39:03 I'm on debian x86_64. 20:39:31 The sites I found all say that I should call "make.sh", but it's not present - although I have sbcl and sbcl-source installed. 20:39:42 Any ideas? Thanks in advance. 20:39:44 flip215: if i were you, i'd get sbcl from CVS instead. 20:40:09 flip215: i.e. cvs -d ':pserver:anonymous@sbcl.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/sbcl' co sbcl 20:40:13 Does that make such a difference? Of course, it's the "genuine" thing ;-) 20:40:25 flip215: It will absolutely positively contain make.sh. 20:40:34 -!- konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:40:40 Xach: of course. 20:41:06 -!- moocow [~new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:41:30 holymoo [~new@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 20:42:03 Xach: compilation is running. 20:43:39 How do I get a small change into the official SBCL distribution? It's just about adding the d_ino member for sb-posix:dirent. 20:43:52 konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has joined #lisp 20:44:23 flip215: email a patch to sbcl-devel@lists.sourceforge.net with a description and justification. 20:44:45 Ok, I'll try. sbcl-help didn't work, maybe that will. 20:47:20 flip215: how widespread is d_ino support? 20:47:47 -!- konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:38 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-58.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:50:13 -!- zeugma [~user@lnk2-themill-gw.binary.net] has left #lisp 20:52:44 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 20:54:44 -!- deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 20:55:10 xach: it's in SuS, so at least all UNIXes, AFAIK 20:55:29 cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:31 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:55:33 And Win32 on NTFS has something similar; on VFAT it's simulated by the first data block 20:55:55 cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:58 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:57:10 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@n250-33.mtholyoke.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:57:23 cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:01 xach: compilation and tests passed, with my modifications. 20:59:05 moocow [~new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 20:59:08 Patch is on the way. 20:59:14 Thank you! 20:59:16 -!- holymoo [~new@64.151.208.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:59:34 flip215: ideally, the patch includes a new test for your feature. 20:59:37 as far as i can understand there is no way to get thread-local special variables? 20:59:50 NTFS iirc has index to MFT, VFAT is some abomination ;-) 20:59:52 in sbcl, of course 20:59:58 jdz: specials are thread-local. 21:00:03 (in sbcl, of course) 21:00:09 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-23-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:00:31 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:00:32 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:40 thread-local iff they've been bound in the thread 21:00:54 cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:55 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:01:21 until then the default binding is the global one 21:01:21 hmm, so the thread function should set up their values themselves, not like with some thread implementations where one uses thread-initial-bindings? 21:01:21 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:01:21 Yeah. The global binding is global (: 21:01:21 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755caf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:39 cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:09 jdz: right. I believe bx-threads wraps make-thread to support some list of initial bindings. 21:02:25 pkhuong: I don't think that I can really manage that. 21:02:42 The only way I'd know to verify that was to call "ls -i", and compare the output ... 21:02:53 And I'm not that advanced yet. 21:03:10 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:24 jsnell: decided on vienna? 21:04:27 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-23-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:05:18 What happens in vienna? 21:05:26 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:06:07 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 21:06:13 sorry for being curious ... 21:06:44 flip215: Many people from #lisp will meet there at the 27th february; are you located nearby? 21:06:45 flip215: http://planet.lisp.org/meetings/ has some info 21:07:28 yes, I am ... 21:07:32 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:07:34 but saturday might be a problem 21:07:37 where in vienna? 21:07:50 metalab 21:08:10 ah ... thanks 21:08:28 Time is not decided on. I think antifuchs will blog about it in the following days 21:08:29 There's no time given. Whole day? 21:08:35 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:46 what's on the agenda? 21:08:53 beer 21:09:28 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:16 that's on your mind 21:10:34 hi mega1! 21:10:36 Actually no :-) 21:11:01 hello Xach 21:11:08 mega1_: are you planning to come too ? 21:11:10 no, I'm stuck in a vortex of indecision 21:11:40 fe[nl]ix: I'm considering it. But the details are lacking. 21:12:19 Are there any euro confs around July? 21:13:00 *sellout* will likely be in Toulouse for a month or so. 21:13:17 sellout: I haven't heard of any. If you learn of some, let me know, and I'll add it to the calendar. 21:13:58 mega1_: There are no details as far as I know. It just started with some harmless discussion... 21:14:37 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:15:10 mega1_: and it seems like it has grown to up to 8-9 people just from #lisp :-), 5 are definitive 21:15:35 I'm 0.5 myself. 21:15:48 schroedering? 21:16:21 schroedingering? 21:17:06 Patch is on the way, thanks, good night. 21:17:15 don't look now, but yes 21:18:06 -!- Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:29 Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:57 redline6561 [~AndChat@m125e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:34 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:21:13 -!- flip215 [~flip@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: "so long, and thanks for all the parentheses"] 21:21:18 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.168.37.45] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci_] 21:23:53 -!- redline6561 [~AndChat@m125e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:24:02 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:25:19 slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:01 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:27:53 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:28:24 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 21:33:12 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:33:48 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:43 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 21:37:47 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 21:38:30 konr [~user@201.82.130.248] has joined #lisp 21:38:58 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:08 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:26 HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has joined #lisp 21:47:47 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.235] has joined #lisp 21:49:15 kib2 [~chatzilla@2a01:e35:2e49:f1c0:8d37:669c:7c63:7ad4] has joined #lisp 21:50:12 -!- jdz [~jdz@84.237.142.223] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 21:51:24 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:54:05 -!- triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:08 triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:58:27 fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:46 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has quit [Quit: sellout] 21:59:54 -!- mega1_ [~quassel@3e44b1fe.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:06:46 -!- slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:07:41 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-149-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:07:43 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:13 "Today there is Common Lisp (CL), which runs on all major machines, all major operating systems, and virtually in every country. Common Lisp is about to be standardized by ANSI, has good performance, is surrounded with good environments, and has good integration with other languages and software." <-- was that really the case in 1991? The "good integration with other languages and software" bit I mean 22:11:02 mathrick: as good as other language implementations, I suppose. Lisp machine Lisp must have been pretty good, though, with f2cl and zeta-c. 22:12:30 -!- cvandusen [~user@12.185.80.194] has quit [Quit: quit] 22:12:47 LispOS is still rattling its chains at the back of my head 22:13:10 especially whenever I hit one of the lovely issues with Linux 22:13:52 but every time I think about it, I'm reminded there's no viable process model for it and no-one seems to be particularly busy researching one 22:14:49 pkhuong: but that's all tangential to my main thought, I wonder how successful an endeavour would making something like zeta-c on a modern CL be 22:15:27 mathrick: I'm not sure I see the point, unless you plan on recompiling your whole userspace. 22:15:29 I believe zeta C had a whole load of fun with code making assumptions that weren't in the standard 22:15:44 pkhuong: the point of what? Making zeta-c 2? 22:15:50 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:15:54 mathrick: zeta-c on a modern CL. 22:16:06 you have to do that if you want a lispOS 22:16:08 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:37 oh. I'm confident linux will make a fine lispos, if you actually want to get something done. 22:17:02 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:17:47 linux is doing very well at being as crappy as possible while still somehow garnering support 22:18:07 I'm annoyed at it and also the entire Unix model 22:18:33 which is why I'd like to have an honest lispOS, although wouldn't like to make one 22:18:48 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:49 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 22:21:53 hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-108-182.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 22:22:50 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:23:48 mathrick, worse is better. 22:23:56 the perfect lispOS is 'better', so it's worse. 22:24:08 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:24:12 bjorkintosh: that's exactly where I started in fact 22:24:29 but still Linux/Unix are bad enough to make me long for something else 22:24:43 I think it was hans or manuel who coined the phrase "unwritten software is bug-free and runs at the speed of mouth" (: 22:24:43 antifuchs, memo from trittweiler: You should blog about the Vienna meeting; also let's settle for a time. 22:24:44 Windows! 22:24:46 a perfect lispOS is a machine which would play nicely with the X86 no? 22:24:56 trittweiler: you're absolutely right! 22:25:02 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:05 as opposed to a custom built processor to run lisp, right? 22:25:09 I'll write something up tomorrow evening (: 22:25:14 antifuchs: We grow with every day 22:25:24 bjorkintosh: yeah, no-one thinks we need custom hardware for that anymore 22:25:28 -!- triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: triyo] 22:25:34 nor would that be a smart thing to think 22:25:48 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:54 good. so the genera OS is available for d/l... 22:25:59 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:26:10 there. a perfect lispOS for you. 22:26:34 it's very far from perfect 22:26:44 it'd require tweaking but you would have a top-to-bottom lisp machine. 22:26:49 first of all, it doesn't have a process model, as I mentioned at the beginning 22:26:50 antifuchs: I guess metalab scales? 22:27:05 yeah throw in one or two things to modernize it. 22:27:05 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:20 second of all, people did actually start hacking something resembling a start of a lispOS based on SBCL, so it's not entirely baseless 22:27:21 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-108-182.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: meh] 22:28:03 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:28:13 bjorkintosh: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-os/project-map/ 22:28:44 tcr: it should fit a few dozen people 22:28:46 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:56 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 22:28:58 depends on what the programme is - I believe in lightning talks (: 22:29:12 ...if you want to bring something, we can arrange for a beamer and a tight timer 22:29:50 mathrick, what would the advantage of a lispOS (other than emacs) be? 22:29:58 real work is being done with things as they are ... 22:30:15 and creating an appliance just to run one language seems like a bit of work. 22:30:21 antifuchs: I don't particularly long for formalism 22:30:21 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:22 -!- prxq [~mommer@f052212176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:30:28 great. 22:30:30 me neither 22:30:51 lightning talks would be one tiny concession to anybody who does (: 22:30:52 prxq [~mommer@g227067042.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:30:59 bjorkintosh: getting free of Unix and its idiotic "flat strings of bytes are all the data structure you need" for one thing. Possibly also system that doesn't get on my nerves all the time 22:31:17 hmmm. 22:31:39 mathrick: And why is lisp the language that will enable you to build an OS to solve those problems? 22:31:40 bjorkintosh: also I don't want some kind of island where happy CL people will live in their pure CL world. I'd like an OS written in CL, just as Linux is a COS 22:32:15 but C's especially suited for writing OSes. 22:32:25 tmh: because it had historically had things implemented that weren't available anywhere else. And because I like the CL's model of the world 22:32:31 whereas lisp isn't the most popular systems language around. 22:33:31 neither C, nor CL are particularly suited for OS development 22:33:32 bjorkintosh: just like it isn't especially popular for writing number-crunching software, but that doesn't make SBCL's performance any less awesome in this regard 22:33:36 mathrick: sorry to barge in, but the link you gave lists all things UNIX. I don't see the purpose of such a system since we already have UNIX. 22:33:44 C is not well suited for anything, really 22:33:52 Unix is a direct consequence of C 22:34:02 mathrick: I think you're better off defining how you want the OS to work without reference to a particular language. Then decide if the value proposition of the new OS justifies implementing it. 22:34:18 MORE DWIM? 22:34:20 stassats`, which language IS then? 22:34:21 bulibuta: how is that all things unix? 22:34:24 mathrick: What OS's have you tried? 22:35:01 mathrick: the apps that are all UNIX inspired/based/etc 22:35:09 starting with X :-) 22:35:10 windows, linux in several flavours, Mac, a bit of *BSD 22:35:23 I've touched solaris at some point, but I don't wish to repeat that 22:35:25 mathrick, what about inferno? and oberon? 22:35:32 mathrick: There is not really a significant difference between those. 22:35:35 I know 22:35:38 especially oberon. 22:35:42 since it runs on bare metal. 22:35:48 inferno too 22:36:00 BeOS and C++ (: 22:36:11 <_deepfire> First of all, I think "we" could gain from redrawing inter-process boundaries to go along trust domains. 22:36:27 <_deepfire> No more gratuitious address space separation. 22:36:44 _deepfire: all the work on capabilities. 22:37:04 bulibuta: but X is a fairly good idea (at least it got to a point where it is a fairly good idea) *and* would give compatibility with a large number of existing apps. Which is not something to be discounted, as much as I might dislike the unix roots of them 22:37:18 mathrick: I'm not particularly enamored with Linux/Unix and friends, but I've not seen any truly new/different alternatives. 22:37:35 mathrick: I would love to see someone propose something truly new. 22:37:37 _deepfire: yeah, I keep meaning to take another look at W7 and trying to sketch a model based on that 22:37:50 tmh: I'd like to try minix 22:38:00 it just might be the kind of Unix that doesn't suck horribly 22:38:11 <_deepfire> pkhuong, what do you mean? 22:38:20 tmh, take a look at niklaus wirth's oberon OS 22:38:34 _deepfire: there's a lot of work in that direction already. 22:38:34 it's a language and the language for writing the os in, and it's an os. 22:39:22 hej _deepfire! 22:39:30 <_deepfire> tcr, hola! 22:39:40 mathrick: X is a horrid thing to support, have you ever looked at their code? 22:39:45 tmh: but going back to "what would lisp in lispos give me?", the ability to touch and interact directly with all parts of the system is very good and something to be preserved. It just needs to be made less unruly so you don't bring your whole system down accidentally because you just happened to work on something making a heavy use of MOP 22:39:46 _deepfire: when you did some hacking on ecl, how did you setup the TAGS file? 22:40:03 bulibuta: yeah, pretty it ain't 22:40:06 _deepfire: make TAGS in the ecl/ directory does not work (no such rule), there's a rule for in the build/ directory but that fails here 22:40:34 bulibuta: but X is also a protocol, and that'd be much easier to support 22:40:37 <_deepfire> tcr, I don't use TAGS.. sadly. But I'd suggest "find . -name '*.d' | xargs etags" 22:40:47 that's one of the good ideas in X 22:40:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_operating_systems 22:40:48 mathrick, so you're thinking of a smalltalk environment (with lisp instead) running on bare metal? 22:40:53 I am not in the hate UNIX camp, but as tmh said I'd really love to see something new 22:41:11 mathrick: a protocol that doesn't work 22:41:25 <_deepfire> tcr, actually, "find . -name '*.d' -or -name '*.h' | xargs etags" 22:41:25 _deepfire: what did you use? 22:41:28 bjorkintosh: not entirely dissimilar, but not the same either. "LispOS" is really a concise label here :) 22:41:37 _deepfire: Yeah I used that in the past 22:41:57 <_deepfire> tcr, my lossy memory and grep, which is admittedly not very smart. 22:42:12 -!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjad86 22:42:32 _deepfire: M-x rgrep and next-error/previous error is quite ok, though tags better 22:42:36 +are 22:43:31 <_deepfire> tcr, yeah, now that you remind of it, that's what I use, along with {next,previous}-error bound to keystrokes 22:44:39 <_deepfire> And special-display-buffer-names containing "grep". 22:47:42 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 22:48:37 mathrick: I think your best bet is to build a lisp layer onto of your open source operating system of choice and work your way down. 22:48:48 s/onto/on top/ 22:48:51 -!- milanj [~milan@79.101.170.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:51:04 tmh: what do you mean by "work your way down"? 22:52:09 mathrick: slowly whittle away the amount of !lisp code. 22:52:32 that sounds like construction in the era of the pharaohs. 22:52:42 take moutain: make hole in mountain and shape blocks. 22:52:54 confuse the hell out of archeologists for years to come. 22:53:32 call grand scheme: pyramid. die in peace. 22:53:54 mathrick: For example, start with a lisp X11 window manager that has lisp desktop that presents the OS to you in a way you want to see it. Maybe you don't like files, it presents them as something different, then translates. Later, you get rid of the translation and actually implement the backend that stores things not as files, but whatever. 22:54:01 pkhuong: that doesn't strike me as a particularly good way to solve the "unix is a mess because it grew on a flawed model and then evolved it hell and back" problem 22:54:30 mathrick: Have you played with Squeak? 22:54:40 a bit, it's confusing like hell 22:54:51 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.224] has joined #lisp 22:55:03 mathrick: Think of building your system in a VM-like image. 22:55:10 mathrick, but a smalltalk environment running on baremetal seems to be what you're proposing. 22:55:11 Or a squeak-like image. 22:55:18 -!- moocow [~new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:55:46 tmh: aha, I'd rather go ther other way around, make a bottom layer onto which as much of existing posixoid userspace can be transplanted as possible. Then knock out bits and pieces as you go 22:56:09 hmm. mathrick hasn't that been done already? 22:56:19 when'd that be? 22:56:25 moocow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:31 not quite sure. but it sounds vaguely familiar. 22:57:12 mathrick: I think you're better off starting on top of posix and learning to talk to posix because even when you have a *pure* LispOS, you're still going to have to play nice with people that aren't using it. 22:57:16 hmm. perhaps it was BeOS. 22:57:18 i don't remember. 22:57:25 _deepfire: What's your setup with special buffers? 22:58:17 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:58:24 tmh: trying to start on top of posix does nothing to "I think it's got its fundamentals wrong". And I don't have a clear vision of the top layer anyway, because I don't know how far you can get it once your basics are right 22:58:54 jockc [~jockc@dsl-206-251-71-75.dynamic.linkline.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:02 _deepfire: In particular, how do you create your initial frame setup? I always start emacs, and manually create another 2 frames, and resize/align them manually 22:59:04 -!- hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Quit: hugod] 22:59:49 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:00:16 mathrick: I have to go, but you need to organize your thoughts. Start writing an essay/document that concretely describes what you don't like and how you would like it to work. For me, I'm tired of files and filesystems. I like being able to tag things. I'm not sure if that can be translated into a workable system, but it's just an example, anyway. 23:00:24 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229112143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:00:56 tmh: yeah, one of these days I'll get a round tuit and write it down 23:01:51 -!- TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:02:30 mathrick, a gold-plated round tuitt? 23:03:11 who knows! 23:03:15 hahah 23:03:22 are you going to call it round tuit? 23:03:26 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:03:39 hm I guess the joke is a bit obscure (from an old Martin Gardner book) 23:03:52 http://www.myrtlewoodgallery.com/get_a_round_tuit.htm 23:03:57 my dad loved that round tuit joke 23:04:03 I happen to have an actual round tuit in my pocket. 23:04:05 davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:09 Unfortunately, it's not gold plated 23:04:53 Can anyone explain the joke? 23:05:12 I'll do something when I get "a round tuit" (say it out loud) 23:05:49 cut out a little round piece of paper and write "TUIT" on it 23:05:59 tcr, say it out loud _quickly_ 23:06:15 what's the bit about gold-plated? 23:06:47 presumably anything is better when gold-plated, I dunno. :) 23:06:50 that's from a Martin Gardner riddle. I'm actually not sure why it's supposed to be funny :\ 23:06:53 greboides [~greboides@201-74-170-179-sa.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:07:56 Well explaining stuff makes most things dull, sorry about that :-) 23:09:50 and exposes people trying to make clever jokes :-( 23:10:01 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 23:10:04 hi i want to clean a variable i assigned using push function how can i pop it to null? 23:10:19 nil i mean 23:10:29 clhs pop 23:10:29 push is not a function 23:10:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pop.htm 23:10:35 *Adlai* goes to sleep 23:10:46 stassats`: is it a macro so? 23:10:48 (the specbot link is for greboides ) 23:10:59 ty Adlai 23:11:00 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:11:02 greboides: it is 23:14:02 stassats`: using the right terminology is always good 23:14:33 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:14:43 can i just (setq var 'nil)? 23:14:58 meltingwax [~meltingwa@c-76-106-58-123.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:08 am gonna try, thats why the repl is for 23:15:09 you can (and you don't need to quote nil) 23:15:14 hrm, have any of you heard of a programming book club? Pick a book, meet up somewhere, read it, go over the examples, etc. 23:15:26 stassats`: thank you 23:15:26 nice concept 23:15:29 nil is self evaluating, like: 1 #\x "foo 23:15:40 " 23:15:44 heh 23:16:11 it's like (defconstant nil 'nil) 23:16:30 I know there are book clubs that cover mind numbing shite such as romance novels, I thought, why not something like "On Lisp" ? 23:16:36 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:56 bytecolor, 'meet up' might be tricky if you live in the central part of the middle of nowhere 23:20:38 middle-of-nowhere being a fly over state, for instance. 23:21:11 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:01 -!- prxq [~mommer@g227067042.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:22:39 c|mell [~cmell@91.198.227.49] has joined #lisp 23:23:18 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:24:05 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-108-182.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 23:24:46 bjorkintosh: heh, true. I found a geek meetup site in my city. Mostly D&D type stuff, Fantasy, Star Trek, etc. I'm posting my idea now. There are 270+ members. 23:24:55 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:36 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 23:25:37 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:26:04 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 23:26:12 is this in california? 23:26:49 -!- c|mell [~cmell@91.198.227.49] has quit [K-Lined] 23:27:04 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:29:41 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:52 -!- alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-1092.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:31:20 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:32:33 -!- xp_prg [~xp_prg3@c-98-234-218-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:33:17 c|mell [~cmell@78.142.140.194] has joined #lisp 23:34:17 Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-10-255.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:19 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-209-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:27 bjorkintosh: yes 23:34:58 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:35:10 ah. you're more likely to hit a nerd in california when you throw a stick than in arkansas... 23:35:27 over here, the stick is likely to hit an active member of the nra instead ... 23:36:17 or a VB programmer 23:36:46 bjorkintosh: I'm originally from the south, so I can poke fun! 23:36:48 nah... java. this is walmart world. 23:37:11 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:37:15 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:39:30 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:40:12 bjorkintosh: not throwing sticks in the right places. a fair amount of places in the South you can throw sticks and hit nerds that are NRA members 23:40:42 hehe 23:40:49 in Soviet Russia... 23:41:12 shhhh, you'll get them started with Red Dawn quotes 23:41:20 -!- fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:33 :P 23:41:39 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178225067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 23:42:13 minion, chant 23:42:14 MORE GUNS 23:42:37 LESS GNUS 23:43:28 -!- davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:44:17 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 23:48:18 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:48:41 kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:14 I like guns, I think we should all be packing, openly. 23:50:14 -!- c|mell [~cmell@78.142.140.194] has quit [K-Lined] 23:50:51 i thought gun control discussions in #lisp are out of fashion 23:51:00 heh 23:51:20 true. is cycling still in fashion? 23:55:27 -!- Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-186.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:58:20 davazp [~user@165.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:57 HET2 [~diman@91.114.108.230] has joined #lisp 23:59:49 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]