00:00:32 -!- gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has quit [Quit: oy vey...] 00:01:50 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-21-117.vodafone.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 00:04:51 -!- merl15 [~merl@80-121-44-63.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:07:09 sledge [~chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 00:07:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:08:11 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:41 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:25 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-208-5-37.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:20 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483E08C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:17:58 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:14 -!- prxq [~mommer@f050207179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:26:21 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:14 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-51-215-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:39 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:52 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:45 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:43:01 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:57 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 00:46:31 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:41 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:46:42 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 00:49:47 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-118-48.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:51:37 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:44 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:54:41 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:57:27 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:00:17 -!- chrisb [~chrisb@pool-71-175-244-236.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:02:24 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:02:52 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:11:48 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-108-239.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:11:50 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:28 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:00 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:18:57 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 01:20:53 anton_v [~Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 01:22:35 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-147-65.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:23:35 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-144-247.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:42 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:30:53 -!- maelcoluim [~maelcolui@client-80-5-172-214.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:34:14 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:05 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:05 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:35:05 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:39:18 Released a trivial library: Proper Tail Calls for Common Lisp http://bit.ly/dBfJLh At long last, CL *is* a functional programming language! 01:39:41 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 01:41:25 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:35 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:41:39 Tail calls for CL? I did that with a macro. See c.l.lisp. 01:41:55 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:56 Fare, that's quite a high README/*.lisp ratio :D 01:42:26 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:42:44 also, where do you define =enable= ? 01:43:08 Ah, it's a library for portably /enabling/ tail calls. 01:43:43 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:51 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 01:44:09 You can actually make tail calling work where the compiler support is lacking. 01:44:25 DO is basically tail recursion 01:44:35 not tail _calls_, though 01:45:10 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 01:47:00 -!- chessguy [~chessguy@pool-96-255-155-17.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: chessguy] 01:48:10 -!- anton_v [~Miranda@93.125.49.66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:49:11 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/6d41174f80d5427b/44f979835cefe031 01:50:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:51:18 Fare: bug in ptc.asd 01:51:33 =enable= ? 01:52:08 :file "ptc.lisp", ASDF can't find ptc.lisp.lisp 01:52:59 that is unfortunate 01:53:31 Cross-module tail calling: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/18f6104768afd9bd/9c18ca2f36a58497 01:54:40 -!- quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:55:04 -!- Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-103.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:01:13 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:14:07 -!- Kazinator [~fedora@d154-20-32-179.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:17 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 02:28:30 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:14 -!- l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Quit: Vision[0.9.7-H-090423]: i've been blurred!] 02:30:18 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229132167.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 02:31:41 kwinz3_ [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 02:33:58 oops 02:34:43 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:35:27 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:36:40 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:37:26 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:16 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:53:25 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:59:15 djinni` [~djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:45 -!- quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:04:13 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-97-197.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:06:38 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-108-211.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:08:56 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 03:10:16 -!- jleija_ [~jleija@adsl-91-4-159.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night folks] 03:10:47 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:11:42 leo2007 annotated #94445 "full bt" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94445#1 03:13:13 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-201-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:13:45 Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:12 das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:09 looking at the difference between get and getf, it seems getf is a little more general in that it operates on a place rather than just a symbol 03:19:23 I wonder what kind of place can have a plist other than a symbol 03:19:42 spacebat: any place that does not specify otherwise can have a plist 03:20:02 no 03:20:06 anything setf-able in other words? 03:20:16 getf does not operate on the place's plist 03:20:20 it operates *on a plist* 03:20:30 a plist is a list of the form (key value key value ...) 03:20:34 by "have a plist" I mean the plist to which PLACE refers 03:20:35 symbols *have* plists 03:21:07 From the notes of GET: (get x y) == (getf (symbol-plist x) y) 03:21:12 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:21:21 that is the key concept. 03:21:34 kpreid: ugh, I was busy typing that except with  03:21:37 so to simulate get: (getf (symbol-plist sym) indicator) 03:21:47 yes 03:21:50 thanks :) 03:21:56 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 03:24:18 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:26:28 VTimage [~VTimage@c211-30-168-85.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:27:14 spacebat: notice that to give plists to anything else than symbols, you'd have to go thru a hash-table for example. (defun object-plist (object) (gethash object *plists*)) #|and similar setter|# (setf (getf (object-plist 42) :in-french) "quarante deux") 03:28:34 a value in a plist can't be a nested list? 03:28:43 Yes. 03:28:55 I wonder why 03:29:24 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:29:27 I mean, yes, the can be a nested list too. 03:29:29 Even the keys. 03:29:31 anyway they're more of a curiosity to me, not planning on depending on them for much 03:30:05 I'm suffering from SBCL instability, seems I get corruption whenever I load SQLITE 03:30:33 oh, sure, blame SBCL. 03:30:36 (let ((pl '())) (setf (getf pl 42) '(fourty two) (getf pl 2) '(two)) pl) --> (2 (TWO) 42 (FOURTY TWO)) 03:30:53 heh, I blame sqlite 03:30:58 cl-sqlite I mean 03:31:18 (let ((pl '())) (setf (getf pl 42) '(fourty two) (getf pl '(fourty two)) 42) pl) --> ((FOURTY TWO) 42 42 (FOURTY TWO)) 03:31:58 right pjb, I understand - think I misread your statement before 03:32:38 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has joined #lisp 03:33:18 spacebat: but it is harder to use random objects as keys in plist since GETF like GET always uses EQ to compare the keys, so you must have the exact object as key, not another one that looks like it. 03:33:25 current guess is, when I load sqlite, its pulling in the wrong shared lib 03:34:01 yup, hence its speed - for short lists 03:37:54 -!- pjb [~t@95.124.57.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:40:08 leo2007 annotated #94445 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94445#2 03:40:50 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:45 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:44:22 davazp [~user@68.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:57 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:16 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 03:56:19 Can someone explain to me how recognizers work? I don't get it. 03:56:43 "Finally, we look at recognizers, expressions that test how an object is constructed. Corresponding to each constructor of a data type is a recognizer. In the case of list, they are null for nil and consp for cons. Given a list L, (null L) returns t iff L is nil, and (consp L) returns t iff L is constructed from cons." 03:57:15 what don't you get? 03:57:37 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:14 so when you contruct an object, a recognizer is in that object? 03:58:20 construct* 03:58:53 no, but there is a function for that type of object that will tell you if its argument is of that type 03:59:07 I think that's what its trying to say, anyway :) 04:00:09 How do I get lisp for windows? 04:00:43 windows is not as well supported among free lisp implementations as linux and BSDs 04:00:54 but I hear that Clozure CL is acceptable 04:01:22 also some use SBCL and CLISP on windows I think, with various caveats 04:01:45 I also hear that commercial lisp vendors have excellent windows support, but I've no experience with them 04:01:53 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Quit: blackened`] 04:02:19 there is a port of clojure to .net 04:02:26 and some other .net lisps 04:02:35 but they aren't very like common lisp 04:03:12 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-108-239.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: adventure awaits] 04:03:35 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 04:04:47 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-213-4.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 04:04:54 Ok I mosltly get lisp now, 04:05:01 I don't like it, too many brackets 04:05:11 parentheses 04:05:17 wtf @ ten thousand brackets at the end, like )))))))) 04:05:19 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:20 yuk 04:05:22 they serve a purpose 04:05:25 I know 04:05:27 forms 04:05:29 but sitll 04:05:31 still* 04:05:44 the complete absence of operator precedence 04:05:48 yes 04:06:00 everything is a function with arguments 04:06:02 decent lisp editos have parens balancing functionality 04:06:08 I know 04:06:11 emacs 04:06:24 *pinterface* idly remembers when he thought Lisp's syntax was horrid. 04:06:42 doesn't haskell do the same thing that lisp does without the terrible brackets? 04:06:42 some newer lisp dialects do reduce the number of parens where possible 04:06:54 clojure and arc come to mind 04:06:59 no 04:07:10 haskell is pure functional - well as pure as you can get 04:07:27 lisp tends to be multiparadigm 04:07:34 ok 04:07:35 lisps that is 04:07:51 btw in Aus english, brackets are () 04:07:59 US brackets are [] 04:08:19 fyi 04:08:25 I live in adelaide 04:08:26 those are square brackets 04:09:14 Anyhow, haskell is pure functional, not even variables 04:09:19 like LET in lisp? 04:09:35 it has variables, but they don't vary :) 04:09:41 I see 04:09:43 AFAICT 04:09:44 constants 04:09:48 then 04:09:54 Kazinator [~fedora@d154-20-32-179.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:03 so lisp isn't a pure functional language. 04:10:07 it also has generally no order of execution 04:10:23 ok 04:10:32 unless you use monads, which are like composed functions 04:10:35 I'm no expert :) 04:11:16 lisp lets you write functional code but doesn't require it 04:11:51 I've seen various macros that bring haskell like constructs such as pattern matching to lisp 04:13:08 And of course there's Liskell, which brings lisp-like syntax to Haskell. :) 04:13:13 VTimage: if you want to avoid brackets at all costs and program in a functional style, but retain the ability to mutate data, then you can try OCaml 04:13:36 ok thanks 04:13:51 there's also plenty of let statements in OCaml :) 04:14:00 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 04:14:06 heh 04:14:14 OCaml is statically typed and quite fast 04:14:17 to run 04:14:43 cool 04:15:30 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:15:54 where in .au are you VTimage? 04:16:08 Syd 04:16:22 I spent 6 years where starting around 2000 04:16:27 s/where/there/ 04:16:31 cool 04:16:33 in lane cove 04:16:36 nice 04:16:47 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 04:16:50 but you grew up in adelaide? 04:17:01 wasn't into lisp then, knew I had to find out more about it though 04:17:07 no grew up in tamworth 04:17:13 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:17:18 cool, do you listen to country at all? 04:17:31 heh, not especially 04:17:34 play guitar? 04:17:57 not at all - you can tell a tamworthian because they don't like country music 04:18:02 heh 04:18:10 I thought it would be a stereotype. 04:18:14 but I don't mind it - if its done well 04:18:24 like most music, it rarely is :) 04:18:27 Johnny Cash is good, but US... 04:18:51 my brother has the same name as slim dusty's (real name) 04:18:56 wow 04:18:59 related? 04:19:00 my mother has the same name as slim's daughter 04:19:05 distantly I guess 04:19:07 creepy 04:19:12 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #lisp 04:19:22 so being the kirkpatricks of tamworth, we sometimes got his fan mail 04:19:43 in sydney I got a call to speak at some function after he passed away 04:19:47 lol 04:19:52 oh deary dear 04:19:59 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.124] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 04:20:20 IE is already rotten 04:20:38 haven't you seen the news, google got hacked in China because of IE 04:20:40 what sort of projects are you interested in tackling with lisp? 04:20:43 yes 04:20:43 and they are closing shop 04:20:54 Err, not sure I'll use lisp 04:20:59 but meh anythong 04:21:02 anything* 04:21:34 Someone I talked to recommended learning lisp, and my lecturer was raving about it 04:21:39 well not raving 04:21:47 but talking about how he used it 04:21:54 I'm of the mind that there is something special about lisp that almost all other languages lack 04:22:04 yes 04:22:06 It's nice 04:22:26 the data/code equivalence in particular and its use in metaprogramming and serialisation 04:22:37 heh 04:23:03 this is why infix syntaxes for lisp have never taken off 04:23:10 well, if you discount javascript 04:23:17 About that tail-call discussion above: you can actually make tail calling work where the compiler support is lacking. 04:23:21 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/6d41174f80d5427b/44f979835cefe031 04:23:24 which was originally a scheme implementation 04:23:24 Cross-module tail calling: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/18f6104768afd9bd/9c18ca2f36a58497 04:23:46 If he's not raving, he's not a real Lisp instructor. Find another one. 04:23:57 :) 04:26:47 He was an algorithms / complexity theory instructor 04:27:18 Did someone say monads? http://paste.lisp.org/display/71196. 04:27:30 Complete with state transformer monad implemented using comprehensions over the identity monad. :) 04:28:01 benny` [~benny@i577A81FC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:28:29 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 04:28:29 spacebat: infix syntax for Lisp hasn't taken off for the same reason that lipstick, high heels and handbags haven't taken off for males. 04:28:53 -!- benny [~benny@i577A774B.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:28:53 because they're hostile to macrology? 04:29:05 -!- alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-0408.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:29:39 I don't know a lot about monads, that code looks interesting 04:29:53 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 04:30:56 Uh, WTF. I have a slot accessor GF defined in my class. And it works fine. Then a few minutes later, the method specialized on my class is gone. 04:31:11 SBCL 1.0.33 04:31:40 check the value of *defmethod-timeout* 04:32:02 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 04:32:06 that does sound a bit scary though 04:32:30 spacebat: I assume that first comment was a joke. 04:32:47 sorry I should have put a smiley on that 04:32:57 No, defmethod-timeout is a new draft ANSI feature. 04:33:12 *gigamonkey* actually apropos'd it just in case. 04:33:17 hehehe 04:33:25 Kent Pitman resisted, but Ron Garrett prevailed, suprisingly backed by Madhu. 04:34:09 to disable it, set *surprise-factor* :low 04:34:14 here's my first automotivator pic: http://ubermonkey.net/~akhasha/images/cl-no-feature.jpg 04:34:55 pjb [~t@95.124.91.234] has joined #lisp 04:36:54 Kazinator: ;-) 04:37:58 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:38:21 my second: http://ubermonkey.net/~akhasha/images/knuth-happy.jpg 04:40:18 -!- pemryan [~pem@2001:cc0:201e:107:221:86ff:fe1a:e5aa] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:40:47 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-4154.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:45:07 -!- gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:46:00 mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 04:49:06 -!- mikezor_ [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:54:03 -!- Kazinator [~fedora@d154-20-32-179.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Hmmm. EPIC4-2.10 (769) has another bug. Go figure...] 04:55:02 evening 04:55:36 Kazinator [~fedora@d154-20-32-179.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:47 afternoon 04:56:08 evening slyrus 04:56:27 -!- VTimage [~VTimage@c211-30-168-85.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 04:56:28 hey gigamonkey, how's the bot? 04:56:37 Well, good except I've got a disappearing method. 04:56:46 irc bot? 04:57:04 The accessor for one of the slots in one of my classes is there one minute and then disappears. 04:57:08 gigamonkey: is this code accessible somewhere? 04:57:14 Kazinator: not yet. 04:57:52 So like you're dispatching to that accessor, and then what happens. It just doesn't understand that type one minute later? 04:58:11 It seems to require me doing one interaction with the bot (which is running in a separate thread) and then poof it's gone. I see a bunch of "STYLE-WARNING: redefining START-BOT in DEFUN" in the *inferior-lisp* buffer as though a bunch of stuff is getting redefined in the bot thread. 04:58:11 04:58:35 Kazinator: at the REPL I can say (history x) and it returns the value. 04:58:50 So history is the accessor. 04:58:57 Then I run some code and when I evaluate the same expression there is no longer a method specialized on the class. 04:58:57 Yes. 04:59:24 (And I tried other names just to make sure it wasn't something crazy with the name, even though that made no sense.) 05:00:03 So after that (history x) leads to method not applicable. 05:00:26 sounds nasty, perhaps see if you can reproduce it in the latest SBCL 05:00:30 Nothing screwy going on with symbols being uninterned. 05:00:33 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:00 The GF is still there, just not the method. 05:01:15 Kazinator: right. 05:02:50 Hmmm. The slot disappears from the object too. 05:04:23 gigamonkey pasted "In case I'm losing my mind here's the defclass" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94461 05:07:15 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:07:20 Heh. When I download SBCL from sourceforge, I get an add for this: http://beelisp.com/ 05:08:00 -!- davazp [~user@68.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:08:06 the defclass looks fine to my untrained eyes 05:08:44 I wonder what The Lisp language is 05:08:54 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:25 slyrus: anyway, before I ran into this weirdness with the method, I was working on adding a feature where the bot would remember the recent history of what was said in the channel so when someone asks a question that you think the bot can answer you can say, "gigabot: answer foo" where "foo" is their nick. 05:11:05 But my @#$%#$ history slot keeps disappearing so I guess that feature is out. :-| 05:11:09 from the beelisp overview "The majority of Lisp-systems are provided with a considerable quantity of the libraries often frightening users by its «monstrousness» and slowness. Newbies who studies Lisp usually afraid of it - «I still need to study a lot!», they think. Why its so necessary to deliver libraries with the compiler, if all necessary functionality is in operating system?" 05:12:08 What does #'history look like when this starts happening? 05:12:34 it sounds like a fairly minimal lisp-2 with a smart FFI 05:12:53 Kazinator: you mean before things go missing or after? 05:13:05 How about both. 05:13:11 Before, I SLIME inspected it and the expected method was there. 05:13:20 After, it looked basically fine but it had no methods. 05:13:36 Does SBCL have (generic-function-methods #'history). 05:14:31 Those STYLE-WARNING methods in the *inferior-lisp* buffer seem very odd to me. There's no reason anything at all should be getting recompiled at that point. 05:14:50 gigamonkey: does it happen with a more recent version of SBCL? 05:15:08 adeht: I'm building 1.0.35 as we speak. 05:15:28 Kazinator: (sb-mop:generic-function-methods #'history) => NIL 05:15:30 (this is after) 05:16:38 did you try it without SLIME? 05:17:30 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:17:55 M-. on #'history and see where it goes? 05:18:30 adeht: nope. I'll try that. 05:18:33 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:45 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:22:25 *slyrus* was trying to figure out what would be on the #'history IRC channel and then realized his mistake 05:22:31 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:22:51 adeht: same problem running without SLIME 05:23:12 And same weird STYLE-WARNINGS 05:24:49 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 05:26:22 Weirder yet, it's only on one code path through the handler function that those STYLE-MESSAGES are emitted. 05:27:29 you checked with handler-bind? 05:27:35 -!- cools`` [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:29:51 adeht: you mean how do I know? No, there are different paths through the handler for messages addressed directly to the bot and otherwise and it's only in one case that they come out. 05:30:16 It's like somehow, something i do is causing a bunch of stuff to get recompiled. But that makes no sense at all. 05:31:59 well, perhaps you can set up such a handler for each thread and get a backtrace when a style-warning is signaled 05:32:23 adeht: yeah. I was just thinking that. First I'm going to try this in Allegro. 05:33:46 Okay, very similar behavior in Allegro. So that means I'm doing something cross-platformly amazingly dumb. 05:33:46 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:34:38 ...accidentally doing a #'load? 05:34:39 do you use load? :) 05:36:38 Not as far as I know or can reveal with grep. 05:38:15 In Allegro it complains about various things that were defined in file irc.lisp now being defined at the top level. 05:39:20 I'd try the backtrace approach 05:39:52 adeht: yeah. 05:41:59 -!- pjb [~t@95.124.91.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:43:41 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:46:11 Okay. So that was, as suspected, incredibly stupid. I had somehow finger-fumbled something and pasted basically a whole file into the middle of some other defun. Doh! 05:46:53 heh 05:47:41 It's not entirely a feature that that can compile. :-( 05:47:54 But the backtrace showed me right where the problem was. 05:48:07 but what happened with the methods? 05:49:22 Well, the pasted file was the one containing the defclass, but an older version without the slot. 05:49:34 :) 05:49:36 I guess redefining the class removes methods that are no longer needed. 05:49:40 yep 05:50:05 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 05:51:26 -!- dym [~dym@217.20.175.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:52:42 loz- [~loz@231.147.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:53:33 ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 05:53:44 -!- loz- [~loz@231.147.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:54:25 -!- Kazinator [~fedora@d154-20-32-179.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:00:16 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:01:45 -!- xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:02:19 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 06:02:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:06:56 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:08:11 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:41 *pinterface* wishes for more regression tests for cl-unification. 06:14:09 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:14 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:16:21 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 06:19:25 franki^ [~franki@unaffiliated/franki] has joined #lisp 06:21:40 Anyone want to pop over to #gigabot to do a quick test of my bot. (I need someone other than me to say something.) 06:30:20 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:31:59 splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-dlpakrgltvstnqjc] has joined #lisp 06:33:07 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-144-247.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:35:25 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-29-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:35:31 I just bought coders at work 06:35:44 along with let over lambda 06:36:01 the latter says it should be considered a sequel to 'on lisp' 06:36:07 so I should probably get that now 06:36:57 mornng 06:36:59 (not (cheap? 'programming-books)) 06:37:06 (obviously) 06:37:11 evening 06:37:37 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-66-113.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:38:08 -!- akcom [~akcom@rrcs-67-78-136-74.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 06:39:15 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-51-215-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:39:31 ramus [~ramus@99.23.137.238] has joined #lisp 06:44:31 spacebat: if you're referring to the price of On Lisp, you can download it for free at http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html 06:45:14 yeah I have it in pdf form, but I have trouble reading for too long from the screen, hence collecting dead trees 06:45:25 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:54 dym [~dym@217.20.175.226] has joined #lisp 07:03:31 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:03:42 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: bedtime] 07:03:58 Kazinator [~fedora@d154-20-32-179.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:07 -!- Kazinator [~fedora@d154-20-32-179.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:07:36 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 07:09:46 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:12 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 07:17:19 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:20:02 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 07:20:33 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.167] has joined #lisp 07:30:53 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 07:33:54 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 07:34:15 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:36:30 -!- das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:40:50 deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 07:44:51 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-70-208.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:44:56 Good morning! 07:47:35 mornin' 07:57:28 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:58:57 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:59:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:04:28 fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 08:05:46 I'm using zpng and I'm not certain why (write-png) is outputting a blank file 08:05:51 http://www.pastebin.ca/1787859 08:06:49 it appears as the innermost function in (defmethod draw-wave *) 08:07:05 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:10:03 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 08:12:26 litherp2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:41 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:14:22 -!- litherp2_ is now known as lithper2 08:18:46 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:18:55 -!- lithper2 is now known as lither2_ 08:19:15 -!- lither2_ is now known as lithper2_ 08:19:39 lithper2__ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 08:20:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1] 08:21:14 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 08:23:21 tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:04 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-163-57.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:28:06 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:28:06 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: night] 08:42:55 oh please no one look at that 08:43:16 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 08:43:33 fatblueduck: OK (: 08:43:47 slittist: thank you! 08:43:53 -!- sledge [~chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:44:00 splittest* 08:44:09 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:48:18 pemryan [~pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 08:53:09 freenodeIRC [~pevaneyn@22-48-191-193.dhcp4.fosdem.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:36 zpng actually iterates through every single pixel in its mandelbrot sample... 08:53:38 wow 08:54:21 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-245-152.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:56:25 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-175-124.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:22 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75783b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:39 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:05:46 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:08:17 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 09:10:11 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Client Quit] 09:12:05 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:15 rmathews [~rm@122.165.6.245] has joined #lisp 09:13:08 Anyone got SLIME working with ACL-8.2 Express Edition? 09:14:02 I followed the steps on http://www.franz.com/emacs/slime.lhtml but that didn't work (slime said lisp droppped the connection, and acl opened up it's IDE) 09:14:20 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-164-118.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:14:48 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:15:46 I can crash ccl64 with cl-plplot. Can someone help me? 09:15:46 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:16:15 beaumonta [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:18:32 larry65 [~larry@d122-105-195-111.adl8.sa.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:23:28 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has joined #lisp 09:23:28 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has quit [Changing host] 09:23:28 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:23:44 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Quit: Server buffer killed] 09:28:37 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:48 leo2007 pasted "ccl64 crash" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94464 09:35:21 The full description of the crash is in paste 94464. 09:35:51 milanj [~milan@109.93.9.208] has joined #lisp 09:37:49 gemelen_ [~shelta@shpd-95-53-163-57.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:37:53 -!- gemelen_ [~shelta@shpd-95-53-163-57.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 09:45:01 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 09:48:21 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:50:09 ruepel0r [~rue@f051008175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:57:29 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:35 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:06:33 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:07:18 -!- cataska [~cataska@60-248-141-225.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:07:55 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 10:08:01 alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-0408.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:08:10 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 10:09:31 -!- rmathews [~rm@122.165.6.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:18 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19:46 -!- freenodeIRC [~pevaneyn@22-48-191-193.dhcp4.fosdem.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:20:14 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@22-48-191-193.dhcp4.fosdem.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:28 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:22:11 DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 10:26:59 goodnight #lisp 10:27:06 minion: goodnight 10:27:07 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``goodnight''. 10:27:10 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 10:27:13 :( 10:27:16 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 10:36:42 -!- leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1] 10:37:57 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:35 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:43:47 maxalwin` [~user@196.12.149.37] has joined #lisp 10:46:22 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B483.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:37 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082F887.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:01:52 merl15 [~merl@80-121-45-49.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:02:04 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:10 fiveop [~fiveop@g229145220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:04:55 -!- kwinz3_ [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:06:55 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 11:10:51 I think one could improve the readability of backtraces when there was information whether the debug-fun of the frame came from macroexpansion 11:13:23 tcr pasted "example for macroexpansion-aware backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94465 11:13:49 Something along the lines of that. 11:14:08 The point is that the intended stuff represents cruft introduced by macroexpansion 11:15:03 If you read the backtrace ignoring the intended frames, that's pretty much the call-chain as reflected by source 11:15:07 -!- maxalwin` [~user@196.12.149.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:16:35 pbusser [~pbusser@82.174.238.138] has joined #lisp 11:20:55 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 11:22:56 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:23:07 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:30:11 -!- djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has quit [Quit: screen] 11:31:17 djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has joined #lisp 11:34:03 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:58 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-117-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:55 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-22-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:44:33 -!- Nshag 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alan`` [~alan@n11211852185.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:15 -!- alan`` [~alan@n11211852185.netvigator.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:35 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:02:01 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 12:06:43 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:11:00 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-163-57.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: I wish the toaster to be happy, too.] 12:12:05 serichsen [~user@f048097117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:12:07 hello 12:20:05 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-4154.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 12:22:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:24:04 -!- larry65 [~larry@d122-105-195-111.adl8.sa.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:24:40 -!- ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:27:45 tcr: how we read this backtrace like an upside-down directory tree? 12:27:50 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@88-149-211-38.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:27:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@88-149-211-38.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Changing host] 12:27:51 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 12:28:47 not really, it's "user call stack" vs "cruft" 12:28:54 ah 12:28:56 that makes sense 12:29:29 because I was reading the indented lines as something that came from the preceding frames 12:29:36 and the backtrace didn't make sense. 12:30:15 it's still the whole representation of the call stack 12:30:37 that said `v' has some funny behaviour because it often highlights the expression of the PC in the frame 12:31:25 e.g. pressing `v' on the process-requests frame, will get you into the PROCESS-REQUEST function definition, but will highlight the call to eval-for-emacs 12:31:55 because that's where the PC was in that stack frame -- that's actually a useful feature, it can just be confusing 12:36:24 kwinz3 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quit [Changing host] 13:15:29 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:16:31 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066167.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:17:02 hello 13:19:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Client Quit] 13:20:08 TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:02 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:24:34 Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32C407.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:34 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32C407.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:24:34 Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 13:26:52 Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-10-255.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:18 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:18 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-159.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:19 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 13:37:20 Joreji 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has joined #lisp 14:15:50 http://sprunge.us/UALJ What did I do wrong? 14:16:04 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:57 you dont need &rest there 14:19:33 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:19:51 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:21:15 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:28 TR2N [email@89-180-202-218.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 14:21:38 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:26:30 Oh.. it was &rest list >_< Anyway how can I make format iterate over a list? 14:27:19 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:27:23 -!- rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:27:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:28:04 ~{~} is one way 14:30:32 Awesome, works. :] 14:31:59 format is an awesome language 14:32:13 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.10.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:32:51 cmm [~cmm@109.64.10.30] has joined #lisp 14:36:44 they should have specified ~{}~ to work on sequences, and it would be even "awesomer" 14:41:01 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:43:05 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.26.46.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:43:42 except that it's a wrote-once language completely encrypting human intention from people without years of format reading/writing practice 14:43:50 s/wrote/write/ 14:44:30 Sound like Lisp 14:45:53 -!- fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:46:06 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:47:00 tcr annotated #94465 "backtrace wish take 2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94465#1 14:47:29 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:48:15 somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:50:08 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:51:04 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:52:44 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:07 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-94-56.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:54:42 -!- pemryan [~pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:32 -!- ruepel0r [~rue@f051008175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:57:05 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-251-125.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:57:15 -!- Rammal [~rammal@unaffiliated/rammal] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:59:29 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:40 attila_lendvai: you say that like it's a bad thing 15:01:52 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-251-125.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:00 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:03:05 splittist, yes, format is cryptic the same way as regexps. it's a bit like using one-character names for complex operators... 15:03:31 attila_lendvai: Perl? 15:03:42 ah, lost context 15:03:50 jewel [~jewel@41.30.180.160] has joined #lisp 15:04:54 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:06:17 yeah, just like maths 15:06:21 carlocci [~nes@93.37.197.117] has joined #lisp 15:06:28 and look how much of a failure that is 15:08:07 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:09:53 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 15:12:11 rmathews [~rm@59.92.65.184] has joined #lisp 15:12:12 how about APL? :) 15:12:55 whats that got to do with Lisp? 15:13:06 *attila_lendvai* prefers verbosity to (character) succinctness 15:13:25 unicode [~user@95.214.86.248] has joined #lisp 15:13:38 attila_lendvai: FORMAT is my pet Lisp peeve as well 15:14:09 -!- ForgeAus [~forge@112.141.69.22] has left #lisp 15:14:47 alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 15:15:04 rmathews pasted "asdf problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94474 15:15:48 attila_lendvai: (format nil "~@(hello ~:@(world~)~)") how's about that for weird semantics 15:16:05 asdf question: I have asdf:*central-registry* setup, yet asdf:oos throws an error. is there any obvious flaw in this paste: http://paste.lisp.org/display/94474 15:17:05 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.30.180.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:17:06 adeht, sorry, but i don't even invest time into understanding that... i have a few copy-paste format examples i sometimes tailor a bit, but... 15:19:21 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-101-21.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:21:14 Hi, dear lispers 15:21:54 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:24 TDT [~user@63.254.110.204] has joined #lisp 15:24:13 paolo [~chatzilla@93-34-135-77.ip50.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:24:15 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:26:03 There is a function in a package (say library-package) that wants a symbol as argument and search it in a list of symbols internal to the package. When I call that function from another package (say my-package), the search fails because for library-package, the symbol given as argument to the function in question is my-package::my-symbol, not my-symbol, which is what is stored in the library-package in the list of symbols internal to 15:26:03 library-package. 15:26:59 I'm trying to figure out how to solve this problem in a clean way 15:27:17 some suggestion for this poor lisp newbie? 15:27:48 Why don't you export said symbols? 15:28:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:28:13 If you really want to ignore package differences (why use symbols at all, then?), use the SYMBOL-NAME function for the key when comparing. 15:28:25 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 15:29:03 Athas: well, I agree, but this library-package isn't written by me and I would like to not modify it 15:29:16 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 15:29:28 Athas: the library-package in question is trivial-ldap 15:30:08 Maybe you are expected to reference the internal, unexported symbol? 15:30:09 Athas: if there isn't a clean way, I would end up patching the library and sending the pactch to the author 15:30:14 It's quite possible to do that, after all. 15:30:33 alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 15:31:19 Athas: the list of symbols is generated at runtime 15:31:33 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:07 I wonder if there is a clean solution in this cases 15:34:18 This sounds really damn weird, are you certain you haven't overlooked something? 15:36:01 well, I can't be sure, I'm learning lisp... 15:36:29 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-202-218.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:36:44 -!- fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.] 15:37:25 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:42 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-26-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:38:01 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:13 fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 15:38:33 rstandy pasted "trivial-ldap weird interned symbols" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94475 15:39:24 Athas: take a look at the paste above please. The first 2 functions are from the ldap package 15:39:45 -!- fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:01 and then there is a example of a call to attr-value from my-package 15:40:13 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-4154.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:40:16 fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 15:40:36 `new-entry-from-list' is the function responsible for creating the list of symbols 15:40:57 that `attr-value' the uses when seaching the symbol passed to it 15:41:03 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:41:15 in my example I passed the symbol mail 15:41:46 -!- fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Client Quit] 15:42:10 fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 15:42:21 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 15:42:51 I at least would like to be sure that there is no clean way to solve this proble without modifying the library, before writing to the author 15:43:00 *problem 15:43:54 jewel [~jewel@41.28.131.220] has joined #lisp 15:44:29 a weird way is to define my functions that uses attr-value in the ldap package 15:44:37 but I really don't like this solution 15:45:19 rstandy: I suppose new-entry-from-list gets called during load-time? 15:45:49 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:45:54 adeht: no, it's called evry time a function that search an ldap database is called 15:46:35 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:49 ikki [~ikki@189.247.83.141] has joined #lisp 15:50:10 that's bad.. a workaround would be to refer to ldap::mail 15:50:47 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 15:51:01 and make sure *package* is the value of (find-package "LDAP") whenever that function gets called 15:51:43 Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:13 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.28.131.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:53:00 adeht: uhmmm, what happens when the package isn't (find-package "LDAP")? 15:53:57 rstandy: well, intern gets called without a package designator, which means it will intern the symbol in the current package 15:54:17 TR2N` [~email@89-180-157-100.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 15:54:57 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 15:56:40 adeht: but if that's true, then my code should always work 15:56:40 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:08 adeht: because I call all the ldap functions always from the same package 15:57:22 so symbols are interned in my package 15:57:25 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 15:57:48 and then referenced in the call to attr-value from my package too 15:58:09 I'm really confused 15:58:44 rstandy: that's not true, you don't call functions "from a package" 15:59:03 -!- deathdefineslife is now known as sayyestolife 15:59:11 unicode_ [~user@95.214.86.248] has joined #lisp 15:59:38 *package* is a special variable 16:00:00 adeht: could you please explain? 16:00:43 your form may get _read_ in my-package, but when it executes it's not at all certain that the current value of *package* is my-package 16:01:46 adeht: oh right, I understand now, thanks 16:01:54 (when the function is called, rather) 16:02:16 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 16:04:03 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:04:04 adeht: uhmmm, I think I should start to debug the ldap library to try to understand fully 16:04:47 well, if you want to actually fix it you'll need to know more about the set of attributes and how they are used by trivial-ldap 16:05:41 e.g., if it's fixed it may be better to use explicitly intern and export them and use find-symbol 16:06:04 adeht: just using a string comparison function is simpler, imoi. 16:06:17 or even make them keywords 16:06:56 pkhuong: maybe.. I'll have to think about it.. I haven't used that technique (yes, I know loop uses it) 16:07:21 yeah, my first thought when I discovered the problem was: why don't use keywords? 16:07:57 pjb [~t@95.124.88.40] has joined #lisp 16:08:21 depending on if/how they are used by trivial-ldap, that may not be a good idea 16:08:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 16:08:37 I really can't believe how good of a book PAIP is...a perfect complement to my AI class. While it's not a perfect dedicated AI book there are some really good concepts here..some stuff that definitely makes me scratch my brain too 16:08:47 -!- unicode_ [~user@95.214.86.248] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:08:48 but then, how could I create keywords programmatically? 16:08:59 skateenjoi003 [~skateenjo@190.154.247.13] has joined #lisp 16:09:01 (intern name "KEYWORD") 16:09:06 keywords are just symbols interned in the keyword package 16:09:21 rstandy: (internal name (load-time-value (find-package "KEYWORD"))) is the optimized form. 16:09:23 pjb: ohhhh thanks 16:09:30 TDT: yeah, PAIP is good 16:09:32 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:10:34 why 16:10:55 skateenjoi003: why what? 16:11:07 PAIP is my favorite programming book :) 16:11:17 (gtg now) 16:11:40 thank you guys, your answers are opening my eyes 16:12:23 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.86.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:12:31 rstandy: have you PCLL at hand? 16:12:33 PCL 16:12:39 pjb: yes 16:12:46 Good. 16:12:59 KKKVKK 16:13:29 it 16:14:05 jewel [~jewel@41.30.183.134] has joined #lisp 16:14:32 pjb: I know, I should read it first, but I have little time to convince my boss to let me use lisp :-) 16:16:34 meltingwax [~meltingwa@c-76-106-58-123.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:34 -!- skateenjoi003 [~skateenjo@190.154.247.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:42 -!- TDT [~user@63.254.110.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:18:05 rstandy: it's better to do both at the same time, explore and read. 16:19:38 pjb: undoubtedly 16:19:39 rikjasnon [~hell@81.172.53.138.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:17 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:16 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 16:27:26 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:55 borism [~boris@237.80.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 16:27:55 -!- frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:12 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 16:28:22 frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:18 Yuuhi [benni@p5483E454.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:10 TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:23 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has joined #lisp 16:31:37 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:48 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:06 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:34:22 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:50 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:46:06 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:49:08 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.30.183.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:50:09 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 16:50:16 TR2N` [email@89.180.233.178] has joined #lisp 16:52:10 -!- TR2N [~email@89-180-157-100.net.novis.pt] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:52:10 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 16:52:17 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:54:05 -!- gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:54:40 tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:42 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 16:58:54 -!- rmathews [~rm@59.92.65.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:14 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-228-116.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 17:01:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:01:31 gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:00 rlb3 [~AndChat@70-140-33-120.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:05 levente_meszaros pasted "Genereic place API for review" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94481 17:05:14 any comments on that? 17:09:55 saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:16 what do you intend it for? 17:10:37 annotate some exemplary methods? 17:12:35 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:12:56 tcr, it's already used by the meta gui part in hu.dwim.wui 17:13:54 jewel [~jewel@41.30.226.105] has joined #lisp 17:14:34 current places implemented: special variable, lexical variable, object slot value, sequence element, setf-able named function, getter/setter lambdas 17:14:50 -!- borism [~boris@237.80.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:15:23 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:15:49 for example, the generic inspector works on places listed for the value being inspected 17:15:59 recursively 17:16:20 ok I see 17:17:12 that makes sense, in fact I'd like to add an inspector protocol to editor-hints 17:20:20 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 17:26:09 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:13 tankrim [~qsvans@c-09fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:31:12 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:35:01 alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:35:58 ak70 [~user@85.232.202.183] has joined #lisp 17:37:36 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:40:01 -!- alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-0408.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:40:16 levente_meszaros annotated #94481 "selection API" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94481#1 17:40:33 this one is newer and less stable 17:41:18 it's kind of redundant I know... 17:41:51 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:46:03 -!- tankrim [~qsvans@c-09fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:47:21 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:37 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-153-48.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:47:42 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.30.226.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:48:32 -!- milanj [~milan@109.93.9.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:51:38 Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32C407.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:38 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32C407.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:51:38 Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 17:51:46 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:53:44 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:58 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:55:25 AndChat| [~AndChat@151.sub-75-228-205.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:14 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:25 -!- rlb3 [~AndChat@70-140-33-120.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.83.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:07:59 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:09:20 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-206-99.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:04 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:06 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-228-116.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:38 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:11:31 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Quit: Meow, meOUT!] 18:11:49 jiyaxuan` [~jiyaxuan@125.33.142.111] has joined #lisp 18:12:11 cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 18:13:14 hello,bodys! 18:13:20 cmo-0 [~user@86.99.178.55] has joined #lisp 18:13:37 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:13:42  18:14:18 jewel [~jewel@41.26.213.39] has joined #lisp 18:14:22 jiyaxuan`: why ostrasize ircbots? 18:14:28 minion: Hello! 18:14:28 what's up? 18:14:33 gigabot: Hello! 18:14:56 nope 18:14:58 :) 18:15:03 first time use the irc , feel nice! 18:15:21 jiyaxuan`: so you're a lisp programmer? 18:16:00 Common lisp newbie 18:16:17 Great! Do you know PCL? 18:16:21 but very interest it 18:16:31 cLisp 18:16:42 minion: tell jiyaxuan` about PCL 18:16:43 jiyaxuan`: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:17:13 jiyaxuan`: also, you may find a lot of lisp resources referenced from http://cliki.net/ 18:17:13 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-101-21.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:17:23 thanks alot 18:18:13 i write it 18:18:27 even though I am a PCL instruct-ee, it always takes me a second to recognize "PCL" 18:18:51 I know, most call it the DSB. 18:18:56 ? 18:19:07 Dead-Sexy Book. 18:19:08 damn sweet book? 18:19:10 oh 18:19:13 same idea 18:19:14 -!- AndChat| [~AndChat@151.sub-75-228-205.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:19:35 02:18 even though I am a PCL instruct-ee, it always takes me a second to recognize "PCL" 18:19:46 I get conflicted with another PCL, the one for CLOS 18:19:58 jiyaxuan`: yes? 18:20:03 portabl common loops ? 18:20:05 jiyaxuan`: PCL is a very good book if you already programmed in another language 18:20:07 cmo-0: yes 18:20:26 sure 18:20:38 Yes, but PCLoop is older than Practical CL, and doesn't come in context with newbies. 18:20:40 i got it, 18:22:13 i'm excited, my anti-slime campaign is progressing nicely 18:22:36 oconnore_: ? 18:22:38 02:22 i'm excited, my anti-slime campaign is progressing nicely 18:22:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.26.213.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:23:12 i like vim... so i'm making a toolchain that will be usable. 18:23:24 > 18:23:59 02:23 why not emacs?! 18:24:26 18:24:26 18:24:54 oconnore_: if fireup time is an issue, then do `emacs -Q` 18:25:01 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-3-131.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 18:26:12 jiyaxuan`: More or less: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editor_war 18:26:20 oconnore_: Why are you against slime? 18:26:26 emacs --daemon 18:26:53 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:27:29 02:24 OK, i know you, wim and emacs -q is quicker 18:28:08 jiyaxuan`: what IRC client are you using? I noticed that it sends a lot of garbage (we don't need the timestamp and your nick). 18:28:10 Well, I'm not trying to start a flame war... but, i hacked on it for about 6 months, but it feels wrong. It's obese in my opinion. 18:28:28 I also like to be able to use the command line repl. 18:28:35 02:28 jiyaxuan`: what IRC client are you using? I noticed that it sends a lot of garbage (we don't need the timestamp and your nick). 18:28:51 buh 18:29:00 emacs irc is 18:29:21 -!- jiyaxuan` [~jiyaxuan@125.33.142.111] has left #lisp 18:29:36 Is it easy to have ccl start in a different package other than cl-user? 18:29:58 rlb3 [~AndChat@32.171.69.202] has joined #lisp 18:29:58 hah, something was incorrectly configured for jiyaxuan it seems 18:30:16 leo2007: I guess you could load a core. 18:30:32 jiyaxuan [~jiyaxuan@125.33.142.111] has joined #lisp 18:30:58 ok, i restart my irc on emacs 18:30:59 oconnore_: I assume you have slime alternative within vim? 18:31:18 yes 18:31:20 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@22-48-191-193.dhcp4.fosdem.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:31:41 I promise I'll get the object inspector for nekthuth done soon! 18:31:43 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:47 Alright, that's probably a lie. 18:31:49 vim is quicker than emacs, but.. 18:32:27 haha, herbieB, I have your source code open right now. 18:32:30 traditionally, the overlap between vim and lisp users is a small one. 18:32:31 jiyaxuan: yeah, that's much better there. 18:32:35 nekthuth is cool 18:32:43 what irc client do you use?! 18:32:47 I like it :P 18:33:08 how is VIM extended? 18:33:20 Fade: What do you mean? 18:33:31 jiyaxuan: irssi (running on a shell server that also works for me as web/mail/torrent/tunnel) 18:33:46 p_l: Then you shoudl check out bitlbee 18:34:08 well, i've been an emacs user for 20 years... does vim have an extention language that can define new modes without changing the code of the core editor? 18:34:16 yes 18:34:20 Fade: I use python. 18:34:23 i use now is irc in emacs on cygwin 18:34:25 Fade: It's the only way I could get a background thread to run. 18:34:31 Fade: vimscript, python, and scheme 18:34:40 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-82-214.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:04 well, scheme would be nice for writing something like slime. 18:35:25 hm? 18:35:28 Fade: Well, the philosophy I've gone with is that extending vim as an editor is wrong, adn so the bulk of work is done within the CL part of nekthuth. 18:35:34 herbieB: nice 18:35:54 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-7-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:35:56 do anybody speak chinese?! let's try some hello --  18:35:58 herbieB: so you have vim talking to something like swank? 18:36:13 Fade: Yes, I wrote my own version of swank. About 80% of the nekthuth code is CL 18:36:24 Nee Haow ! mandrian / or conn .... 18:36:32 Fade: I also pretty much copied how the swank transport protocol works. 18:36:35 yeah 18:36:48 is NI HAO! 18:37:07 i do not the romanization of the wording, ;) 18:37:13 interesting. 18:37:41 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-177-163.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 18:37:41 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-29-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:37:47 herbieB: I suggest you create some buffer markup, and then make the vim part pretty much only interpret that, and the logic in CL 18:37:53 Unfortunately, I was not able to use swank because the actual api isn't really documented and it counts on emacs ability to do a lot of code processing. 18:37:55 well, that'll be useful; I've seen more than one user walk away from #lisp and probably Lisp because there weren't (m)any vi options. 18:38:52 tcr: I have shied away from that as well. Not only is it easier to deal with the buffers from within vim, but I want to give a lot of vim flexibility to the end user from inside their vimrc 18:39:08 jewel [~jewel@41.30.195.138] has joined #lisp 18:39:19 tcr: Also, because I've made an effort to document the nekthuth api, it would be nice if vim was not the only client of the nekthuth backend 18:39:55 herbieB: Hm? My point is that you abstract from the editor 18:40:00 herbieB: I'm working on an extended terminal repl with indentation, completion and form history. Once that is done it may be possible to pull the whole repl out of vim without losing any usability. 18:40:22 oconnore_: take a look at lichtblau's prepl 18:40:26 the slime repl is a major feature of slime.. 18:40:37 and one of the messiest 18:40:39 tcr: I guess I don't understand what you mean. 18:40:58 Fade: I also dislike the repl as a repl. I find it un-vimmy. In vim the idea is that you edit in edit mode, then you do commands with what you've edited in command mode 18:40:58 herbieB: Well do you know how the inspector works in slime? 18:41:22 tcr: I've been digging through that, but basically what I want to do is return a data structure that vim will do with what it wants. 18:41:51 Fade: So Nekthuth uses that approach. There is a way to interact with the interpreter, but you do it outside of editing. In that way tehre is no "form history" 18:41:56 merl15_ [~merl@80-121-7-200.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:41:57 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-svtroeaykhrkgkte] has left #lisp 18:42:05 Fade: because history is an artifact of using a repl. Your history is implicit in the file you're editing. 18:42:18 herbieB: The thing that is returned to the emacs side describes an inspector page and can be thought of as simple buffer markup 18:42:45 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 18:42:52 herbieB: If I had the chance to rewrite Slime, I'd probably extend on that, and use it everywhere. Making the Emacs side only care for editing, and display. 18:42:57 tcr: Ah, the approach I'm taking is to reutrn a simple list of subvalues (though these are more complex than a single string). Then you can pass back the cookie crumb trail as well as the one you want to select to dive in. 18:43:19 tcr: The cookie crumb trail being the current depth in the inspected object. 18:43:39 tcr: I'm actually using the display in eclipse as my model. I really like the way that inspector works. 18:44:20 have you used the lisp support for eclipse? 18:44:40 Fade: No. I gave up eclipse and moved to eclim long long ago. 18:44:54 Fade: The only time I use eclipse now is for java debugging (and I've been doing java professionally for about 5 years) 18:45:12 -!- merl15 [~merl@80-121-45-49.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:45:15 Fade: Shit, actually it's been 6 years. Groan. 18:46:27 you vim guys are a different breed, sho'nuff. 18:46:29 :) 18:46:47 OK, I've to go to bed , bye everybody! 18:46:47 *leo2007* is exhausted upgrading from snow leopard 18:46:52 -!- jiyaxuan [~jiyaxuan@125.33.142.111] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 18:47:25 Fade: Ha. 18:47:44 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483E454.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:55 my brother is a vim afficionado; it's an ongoing source of discussion. 18:48:05 herbieB: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2951 18:48:08 leo2007: I think we're just going to buy a whole new mac to avoid that. Our mac mini is on 10.4 18:48:36 :P 18:48:37 oconnore_: Take a look at how I solve what you're doing with lispwords 18:48:59 nekthuth has an indenter? 18:49:28 No, but you can create a plugin if you like. I'd be happy to add it to my repository. 18:49:29 Fade: yeah, my office is full of vim nuts too, I'm the only emacs guy there :-x 18:49:43 TDT: ack 18:50:06 It has been pretty rare that I've seen more vim users than emacs users in a site.. 18:50:25 I think orbitz was definitely mostly vim when you got out of eclipse 18:50:37 although I did have the classic quip: How do I exit emacs? 18:50:44 Why would you exit emacs? 18:51:06 herbieB: If you don't have an indenter, how do you solve the indentation problem with lispwords? 18:51:20 oconnore_: Oh, I thought lispwords was doing something other than it is :P 18:51:30 oconnore_: Whoops 18:51:36 oconnore_: does your indenter handle loop forms correctly? 18:52:00 not yet, i'm writing a hook to do more advanced processing 18:52:27 herbieB: Install the OS is almost hassle-free. To get every apps that I need to run on Snow Leopard is a bit time consuming. 18:52:43 leo2007: I think we're afraid the mini will just die. 18:53:00 Yuuhi [benni@p5483E454.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:01 Fade: It's really funny when pair programming...I had one developer come over, do a vim keybinding, remove half the buffer contents and get frustrated. One nice thing is since I don't actually enjoy pair programming much, htis limits the amount of it I need to do ;) 18:53:20 but as a reward now my cl development environment is 64bit. 18:53:57 I run snow leopard here too, but do CL development in a virtual machine that runs arch 64bit. 18:54:42 Gentoo ftw. Btw, does anyone know who keeps gentoo lisp stuff up to dat? 18:54:45 my only mac is a ppc machine. snow leopard is a bridge too far for me. 18:55:01 Yeah, with PPC I can definitely understand that 18:55:20 herbieB: my understanding is that of the system packaged lisp environments, gentoo is one of the better ones. 18:55:39 but by lisp standards, 'up to date' is a lot fresher than even gentoo can manage. 18:55:43 as far as gentoo vs arch. They are very similar in a lot of ways..I normally love gentoo too. Compiling everything was a bit too much after I ran into blocking issues a number of times from not upgrading regularly. 18:55:45 *oconnore_* is totally boring. Go kubuntu... with broken lisp packages. 18:55:48 Fade: Probably because it's alls ource based, which plays well with things like cpan and asdf 18:56:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:56:14 oconnore_: yeah, I think really regardless of the distribution, compiling one's lisp distribution is really a good idea. 18:56:16 But it's 4 version behind on sbcl 18:56:21 I use debian pretty much everywhere, and manage lisp with clbuild. 18:57:21 athlon [~user@110-42-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:39 though, lispy looks promising. 18:58:05 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:25 the only annoying thing about clbuild is that any non-major project on cliki has to be manually added. 18:58:36 otherwise it has been good to me. 18:59:21 One thing I like about clbuild though is how easy it is to add personal projects to it without creating symlinks from the asd file to the projet itself. 18:59:36 i try to install LTK on windows and clisp. I install LTK, after it I install ActiveState Tcl/tk. When i want to test ltk (LTK:LTKTEST) it say *** -  Win32 2 (ERROR_FILE_NOT_FOUND): The system cannot find the file specified. 18:59:58 whats i'am doing wrong. Thanks. 19:00:38 find out where ltk is looking for the tk dll and fix it. 19:01:04 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-26-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:48 athlon: add location of wish.exe etc. to PATH 19:02:16 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-26-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:43 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:03:09 just a moment 19:03:27 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:04:05 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-26-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:09 leo2007: To make ccl start in a different package, put an in-package form in your init file. See http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#Personal-Customization-with-the-Init-File 19:05:05 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-117-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:05:28 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-26-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:53 rme, clozure's mainly for osX right? 19:06:18 bjorkintosh: No way  it's great on Windows and Linux, too. 19:06:27 bjorkintosh: no. probably the most demanding users are on linux. 19:06:50 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-26-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:53 ah i had no idea. i thought it's target was the gui stuff on osx. 19:07:33 the last time i used clozure it gave me some funky floating point values compared to sbcl, c and fortran 19:07:44 does it not use IEEE formats or something? 19:07:46 i put path to wish85.exe to my PATG var, so i can call wish85.exe from cmd. but situation still the same 19:07:54 Where by "demanding" I mean "have the biggest systems" or "use 128GB heap sizes". 19:08:09 rme: that works for sbcl but not ccl. 19:08:39 alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-0408.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:08:48 pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:09:30 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-26-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:33 oconnore_: If you feel like reporting bugs, I'll try to fix them. I know about some problems with irrational functions (well, at least LOG) losing precision in some cases, but generally I would expect floating-point arithmetic to be normal. 19:11:20 gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:46 what precisely does clozure do that sbcl or cmucl won't do? 19:11:58 rme: ok, i'll dig up my numerical analysis code from last semester and see if there is still a problem 19:12:08 I rename wish85.exe to wish.exe and it's work!!!! YEEEEEEEES! 19:12:30 bjorkintosh: clozure is nice on MacOSX. It has an Objective-C FFI. 19:12:50 bjorkintosh: also, the sources of clozure are nicer than those of sbcl/cmucl, IMO. 19:12:54 bjorkintosh: Clozure CL has threads on PPC OS X machines. 19:13:23 but what about off-the-shelf intel/amd machines? 19:13:30 does it have a particular advantage? 19:13:47 i see it was used by some heavy lifters like jpl and nasa and sandia... 19:13:48 -!- rlb3 [~AndChat@32.171.69.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:14:00 bjorkintosh: it's just another CL implementation. It makes different trade-offs. Really fast compilation speed, threads on all platforms, compacting gc, nice native FFI. 19:14:03 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.30.195.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:14:10 I use ccl on linux/amd64 as well 19:14:23 although my primary lisp on x86oids is sbcl 19:14:44 I find that loading my systems in sbcl and ccl sometimes shakes out bugs in my own code. 19:14:56 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:57 concurrency too? 19:16:26 bjorkintosh: what do you mean? 19:16:35 skateenjoi003 [~skateenjo@190.154.247.13] has joined #lisp 19:16:41 any provisions for it? 19:16:55 Clozure has threads everywhere it runs. 19:16:55 -!- skateenjoi003 [~skateenjo@190.154.247.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:05 does asdf-install work on win and clisp? I remove gpg testing, but it still need tar and makes errors/ 19:18:44 athlon: no idea; presumably if you have an adiquately posix environment in which to run it and the dependencies are satisfied, then it might work. 19:19:09 p_l would be able to speak more coherently about that, I guess. 19:19:36 rme: could you elaborate on how to set ccl to start in a different package? 19:19:42 rickardg [~user@c213-89-196-180.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:19:44 -!- alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-0408.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:21:27 leo2007: sorry, I was wrong about in-package in the init file. you can either save a heap image, or starting up with ccl -e "(in-package :foo)" should also work. (The init file is loaded with LOAD.) 19:21:29 leo2007: man ccl ; find the rc file ; put in it (in-package "DIFFERENT-PACKAGE"). 19:21:53 athlon: I suspect it *might* work. If you patched it manually with some code that floats on the net (which might be already supported by asdf-install, I don't know as I don't use it) you could get a pure-CL variant 19:23:07 athlon: you could try with tools that are available for MinGW, it might contain win32 tar & gzip/bzip2 as well as compiler/make/shell to get the packages that require those to run 19:23:29 unfortunately my own environments are much more crazy and customized, so I can't help too much 19:23:42 pjb: load/compile-file rebind *package* 19:24:41 True. Implementations could not use LOAD to load their RC files. 19:24:42 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25:23 for what gain? 19:25:45 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:51 To be able to set the package and the readtable from them. 19:26:37 Well I'd think that's too much cost for too little gain 19:27:20 leo2007: you also might look at the source for SET-DEVELOPMENT-ENVIRONMENT 19:28:15 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-22-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:36 -!- cmo-0 [~user@86.99.178.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:31:28 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 19:31:35 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:03 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:32:44 rme: thanks. 19:32:55 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 19:33:02 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:31 jewel [~jewel@41.31.130.68] has joined #lisp 19:35:32 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 19:36:22 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 19:42:10 Fade: you mentioned earlier handling the loop facility. How do you indent loop? My emacs just decreases indent on loop keywords... is that all there is to it? 19:42:29 oconnore_: put (loop on a line by itself. 19:42:39 ok 19:43:36 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:44:31 pjb: that didn't change anything 19:45:02 drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 19:45:13 Here, it aligns all the keywords under "(loop". 19:45:15 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:45:38 ditto 19:46:21 right, so you decrease the loop keyword indent to +2, all other forms go to +4 19:46:27 yes? 19:48:51 I don't have any specific indent for loop. 19:49:23 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:10 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:27 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-94-56.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:53:53 alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:54:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.31.130.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:55:39 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-26-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:09 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:57:49 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:00:21 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:36 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:05 oconnore_: do you have a specific lisp-indent-function or lisp-indent-hook on loop's plist? Check: (symbol-plist 'loop) 20:02:06 -!- frode [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:28 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:03:44 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06:28 pkhuong: is your blog down ? 20:08:52 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-177-163.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:33 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:44 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:50 jewel [~jewel@41.26.45.162] has joined #lisp 20:15:00 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 20:15:33 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:18 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:03 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:21:19 -!- splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-dlpakrgltvstnqjc] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:21:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 20:22:14 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:41 kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:56 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:17 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.26.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:31:38 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-94-56.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:35:07 ephcon [~ephcon@student164-218.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 20:38:33 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:40:09 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-164-118.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:40:22 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:41:09 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:44:45 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:46:23 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:44 jewel [~jewel@41.27.122.226] has joined #lisp 20:47:26 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:51:18 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:53:46 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-148-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:16 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-26-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:31 How do you stop the defconstant warning when recompiling in sbcl as the compile warns about defconstants being redefined to the same friggin value? 20:54:40 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.27.122.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:55:18 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-26-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:26 jsfb: what kind of value is it? 20:55:29 jsfb: "the same" according to what predicate ? 20:55:56 it will say being redefined from '(a b d) to '(a b c) I don't know what predicate it uses 20:56:10 sorry '(a b c) to '(a b c) 20:57:02 So those are not EQL which is what it cares about. 20:57:21 jsfb: don't use defconstant unless the value is actually constant! 20:57:33 Basically, you should use DEFPARAMETER. 20:57:33 the value is actually constant 20:57:38 jsfb: defconstant is defined to use EQL 20:57:48 drewc: that depends on the predicate 20:57:50 not according to defconstant it's not 20:57:55 I do not want them to change, defparameters can be setf can they not? 20:58:08 jsfb: not if you don't setf them 20:58:41 jsfb: or use a symbol macro 20:58:42 well if everyone followed the rules why would there ever be a problem with anything? The idea is to have the compiler blow up on such attempts 20:59:01 jsfb: let me guess: java background? 20:59:03 Fade: not to pester you too much, but you asked... loop, flet, labels, and macrolet all handled correctly: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2951 20:59:08 nope, C++ 20:59:15 jsfb: the reason for CL constants is not what you think... 20:59:19 never messed with java 20:59:28 ok, I'm all ears about that 20:59:29 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-147.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:35 SETF-ability has nothing to do with it, it's constantp that matters 20:59:38 jsfb: The standard does not specify that an error will be signaled if someone tries to assign to a defconstant binding 20:59:53 ok... 21:00:13 so the idea is to enable constantp to work for users to check? 21:00:24 not for uses, for compiler macros :) 21:00:27 users* 21:00:32 and that's it? ok, lisp users are very "nice" lol 21:00:54 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 21:00:58 jsfb: we don't assume our co-workers are thieves and liars. 21:00:59 jsfb: I'd forget about defconstant, it's totally icky 21:01:03 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-147.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:11 tcr: I agree, it's be a pain 21:01:27 people can do bad things unintentionally 21:01:33 jsfb: I just use DEFPARAMETER, but still name the things +foo+ to indicate to readers of my code that I intend this to be a constant 21:02:05 jsfb: it's really hard to SETF something without meaning it, especially if you've properly abstracted it 21:02:08 Axius [~hi@92.84.15.73] has joined #lisp 21:02:14 certainly errors happen from innocent mistakes etc. Anyway, I'll try defparameter since I can't get known protection from altering a constant what does it matter lol 21:02:15 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:02:26 jsfb: i don't export symbols at are used as variables. 21:02:32 i export a function wrapper 21:02:38 I just figured constant meant constant like (setf 5 6) doesn't make much sense 21:02:55 if you don't define a setf function, then nobody can setf your function 21:02:56 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-147.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:03:12 I would use the constant form whether I exported it or not 21:03:16 it's constant! 21:03:25 drewc: I don't like that because it does not visually stand out 21:03:38 tcr: then : (defvar *foo* nil) (defun current-foo () *foo*) (define-symbol-macro +foo+ (current-foo)) 21:03:40 just like defining methods as const in C++ it helps and it helps the compiler too 21:03:56 drewc: To what gain? _I_ trust my users 21:04:22 tcr: so do i... what if you want to change the representation of FOO? 21:04:26 -!- kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: kgn] 21:04:33 I never trust users if I can stop stupid errors before they happen with simple declarations etc... 21:04:34 jsfb: yeah that's true, that's also what defconstant is supposed to be for and it's what makes its semantics so tricky 21:04:42 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-147.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:45 so you expect your users to update all call sites because the value lives in a hash table now? 21:04:46 kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:49 thus my frustration 21:04:55 do you* 21:05:05 drewc: Hm? 21:05:14 what value drew? 21:05:20 drewc oops 21:06:03 tcr: well, i've started wrapping all my 'global' variables/costants in functions, because i change their representation sometimes 21:06:08 drewc: (let ((foo nil)) (defun current-foo () foo)) (define-symbol-macro +foo+ (current-foo)) to prevent dynamic shadowing :3 21:06:11 drewc: I haven't yet had the need to actually make a variable part of an API 21:06:26 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-206-99.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:06:27 tcr: oh, fair enough.. internally do what thou wilt 21:07:06 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-147.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:07:08 sykopomp: with load-time-value to get defvar semantics and an inline declaration, that's what i use for global lexicals 21:07:33 uhm that sounds icky 21:07:39 wait, inlining what? 21:07:43 (current-foo)? 21:07:58 sykopomp: for dynamic variables, i add another function, FUNCALL-WITH-FOO, that does the dynamic binding. 21:08:02 yes, for current-foo 21:08:05 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 21:08:24 these aren't api's for external users anyway, I have constants that don't need to be abstracted with a function call, they are constant! If the constant changes, recompile etc 21:08:53 Plus, one can make symbol macros to do whatever anyway right? 21:09:12 jsfb: recompiling a lisp application because something changes? you _are_ coming from c++, aint ya? :P 21:09:14 jsfb: nope, the expansion of symbol macros is not computed 21:10:10 well I love bottom up interactive environments thus my fascination with lisp, but the paradigm shift isn't always easy to swing in some cases. 21:10:21 jsfb: macros run at compile time and are simple replacemet, you cannot change the expansion of something that is already expanded, and every symbol macro of the same name always expands to the same form. 21:10:22 jsfb, symbol macros can expand into macrolets 21:10:32 thus, they can expand into anything 21:10:44 I think that was supposed to go to me 21:11:34 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:58 a saw a cool non-portable hack that did something like (define-symbol-macro foo (bar (read))) 21:14:33 i think it worked in CMUCL's interpreter such that foo 'bar would be expanded as (bar 'bar) 21:15:13 hah 21:15:35 almost a symbol-reader-macro :) 21:16:07 well that sounds like it would only work at the toplevel 21:16:55 it was a c.l.l post, Warnok i think, and it worked in actual code, though again specifically only in the interpreter 21:17:08 *drewc* looks 21:18:01 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student164-218.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:18:09 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:00 can't find it... i should start collecting posts i read that matter. 21:20:10 Last night I tried to get CLX work, and so I did. But now I wanted to check out how demos work. I opened slime and one of the demos. I C-c C-c'ed in .lisp's buffer, and then (mylispfunction) in slime, but it said that function isn't defined. What did I do wrong? 21:20:38 gulash: Package problem? 21:20:51 -!- merl15_ [~merl@80-121-7-200.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:20:53 I don't know, really. ;-/ 21:20:58 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:06 gulash: is there an (in-package ...) line at the top of the file? 21:21:14 Yes, there is. 21:21:21 copy/paste that into the REPL. 21:21:23 then try again. 21:21:25 gulash: In which package is mylispfunction defined? 21:21:44 Package? 21:22:09 gulash: what text are you using to learn lisp? 21:22:21 minion: tell gulash about PCL 21:22:22 gulash: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:22:39 I have PCL  I'm learning from it. 21:23:20 gulash: i take it you have not made it to chapter 21 yet? 21:23:27 Nope. ;-/ 21:24:00 gulash: www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf and PCL chapter 21 21:24:17 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:16 how could I find out why slime has lost colors for the quick doc in the minibuf? 21:26:36 it just shows a bw text and doesn't highlight the current position in the form 21:26:50 did it do that before? 21:27:15 well, when I first installed slime, yes 21:27:28 but that was a manual install, now I'm using clbuild's slime 21:27:31 i have never seen that behaviour, so i'm not sure where it comes from. check the contribs 21:27:49 you've not seen my current behaviour or the one with colors? 21:27:56 the one with colours 21:28:01 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:16 sounds like fun though, let me know how to enable it if you figure it out :P 21:28:43 hmm, http://home.in.tum.de/~lehmanna/clrt/Part_2.1.2_-_Basic_Raytracing.mov for example 21:28:49 if you want to see what I mean 21:28:56 no, i don't. 21:29:01 merl15_ [~merl@80-121-7-200.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:29:33 (don't want to load a movie up just to see syntax highlighting) 21:29:53 but what did you mean when you said to check the contribs? 21:30:00 I assume slime/contrib, but... 21:30:16 but what? 21:30:39 oh, you mean I should check whether some slime contrib adds that behaviour 21:31:07 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-29-62.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:21 ephcon [~ephcon@student164-218.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 21:33:06 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:19 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 21:34:41 bingo 21:34:41 21:38:28 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:38:40 RaceCondition: use the slime-fancy contrib 21:38:58 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 21:39:01 put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) into your .emacs after the (require 'slime) 21:39:10 RaceCondition: did you copy/paste the clbuild slime config? 21:39:26 drewc: you don't use that??? 21:39:30 remove (setq slime-use-autodoc-mode nil) 21:42:59 tcr: got it, slime-fancy does not call (slime-highlight-edits-init) by default 21:43:10 Ralith: yes 21:43:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:43:49 highlighting-edits has nothing to do with what you were talking about? 21:44:15 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:33 tcr: well, now I get a nice colored arglist with highlights 21:45:13 tcr: oop, it was actually what Ralith said 21:45:16 oops* 21:45:54 -!- merl15_ [~merl@80-121-7-200.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:46:00 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:47:31 oh, and, Ralith, thanks :P 21:47:32 hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-116-188.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 21:48:10 -!- athlon [~user@110-42-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:49:06 np 21:49:10 that one got me a while back 21:53:14 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.15.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:54:42 madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 21:56:47 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student164-218.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:57:48 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:00:40 *hefner* builds ECL on windows, giggles with delight 22:00:48 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:57 hefnr [~root@ppp-58-9-116-188.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 22:02:06 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-10-255.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:02:17 -!- sayyestolife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 22:05:41 -!- rickardg [~user@c213-89-196-180.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:05:43 -!- _deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:05:48 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-116-188.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:05:49 _deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 22:05:50 Ah, see, a momentary interruption of connectivity like that would've have killed my IRC connection in Linux. That's why software should be as stupid as possible. Bah. 22:05:53 davazp [~user@68.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:56 *wouldn't have 22:07:13 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:07:59 (I'm sure the Gnome project will fix that feature when they get around to writing the kernel's TCP stack, though. Or maybe they'll kludge around it with dbus and network manager.) 22:09:05 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 22:10:29 hefnr: What happened to your nick? 22:10:40 -!- hefnr is now known as hefner 22:11:11 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-251-125.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:11:54 That's better. 22:12:00 that's my web 2.0 alternate nick. 22:12:04 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-251-125.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:45 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:18:07 -!- Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:18:38 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-7-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:51 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-7-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:19:01 nice. 22:19:47 snearch_ [~olaf@e179131145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:21:06 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:30 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:28:55 hmm, do I need to do anything special to have asdf-ecl built and loaded when building ECL? 22:29:36 I'm trying to determine if it's debian-introduced breakage related to c-l-c, or if the docs lie 22:30:18 francogrex [~user@187.103-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:30:33 I found this: CL-STORE 22:31:03 --> #lostandfound 22:31:15 tcr: heh.. it seems i'm using clbuild's slime config, which sets the autodoc mode to nil... fixing 22:31:27 what is the advantage of "serialization"? 22:31:38 francogrex: over what? 22:31:49 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:31:50 paralleization? :) 22:31:56 boo 22:32:32 groan 22:32:40 Xach: over loading the program using load? 22:32:42 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-7-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:32:57 francogrex: err? 22:33:06 *mathrick* is reminded of a child groping in the dark 22:33:14 -!- l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Quit: meh.] 22:33:50 -!- snearch_ [~olaf@e179131145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:34:26 *drewc* hands francogrex a fm : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serialization 22:34:30 well for those who have some difficulties interpreting, let me put it in another way: what do you use serialization for? 22:35:21 francogrex: for storing objects in a form that can be later read in to yield the same (FSVO "same") objects back 22:35:38 francogrex: please, read the wikipedia page 22:35:59 -!- kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 22:36:44 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 22:37:18 drewc I read: but say you want to transmit an object; wouldn't it be easire to supply a lisp code that has created the object? 22:37:43 francogrex: that is a form of serialization 22:37:44 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=382430 22:37:50 okay, so it's debian breaking things 22:40:51 udzinari [~user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:42:30 -!- udzinari [~user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:44 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:49 snearch_ [~olaf@e179131145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:45:44 -!- snearch_ [~olaf@e179131145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:53 5EXAAB3AV [~olaf@e179131145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:01 francogrex: you use serialization for data. In case of lisp, for data that doesn't have READable form 22:48:14 (simplistic view) 22:48:44 someone showed once how to use FASLs for serialization :-) 22:50:07 ok i see 22:51:56 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:03 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:53:01 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-251-125.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:53:52 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:54:24 -!- mattrepl_ is now known as mattrepl 22:57:31 -!- Guest428 [~x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:58:19 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-94-56.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:02:16 -!- gulash [~root@81.198.243.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:02:19 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:02:19 p_l: READ and WRITE also count as serialisation 23:02:50 What's the best way to unparse the debug-foo stuff? 23:03:32 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 23:03:38 mathrick: that's why I said "simplistic view" 23:04:06 ok I was looking at it in the context of databasees 23:04:12 mathrick pasted "Inexplicable ECL breakage" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94498 23:04:15 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-7-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:04:30 p_l: but it's not just simplistic, it's misleading and wrong 23:04:38 francogrex: you have to serialize something before you can store it in a database. serialization is a major part of databases. 23:05:05 ok, what the ...? When I compile TRIVIAL-GRAY-STREAMS through ASDF, it breaks. Loading the file by hand works fine 23:05:10 drewc: yes a continuation of yesterday 23:05:14 can anybody explain that? 23:05:22 mathrick: what is the error? 23:05:28 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75783b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:35 drewc: the above lisppaste 23:05:37 but i found a lot more than rucksack: http://www.cl-user.net/asp/tags/database 23:05:53 francogrex: have fun! 23:05:57 -!- 5EXAAB3AV [~olaf@e179131145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:06:00 das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:03 drewc: I'm completely dumbfounded 23:06:44 mathrick: what lisp is that? 23:06:52 mathrick: is that head? 23:07:06 mathrick: juanjo merged a very recent asdf version 23:07:06 no, 0.9.12.3 23:07:27 ah, ecl 23:07:37 yeah, as the title says :) 23:07:40 mathrick: looks like a package problem of some sort 23:07:51 OPTIMIZE levels: Safety=2, Space=0, Speed=3, Debug=0 23:07:51 23:07:58 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:08:33 mathrick: compile with a higher debug and less speed perhaps, see it you get a better error? 23:08:37 if* 23:10:01 see, i didn't read the title until just now... right to the code with blinders on :P 23:11:57 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:13:38 -!- francogrex [~user@187.103-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:14 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@162.202-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 23:15:22 drewc, tcr: tried with debug 3, but it says the exact same thing. Any ideas how to tackle it? 23:16:39 mathrick: *break-on-signals* ? 23:16:40 oh wait, I see it now 23:16:47 it's not the file I was looking at 23:16:57 *mathrick* hits self on head 23:16:58 The error is pretty explicit 23:17:09 tcr: yes, but I misread the paths 23:17:37 -!- prxq [~mommer@f051045078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: 'night] 23:17:45 ideally, slime would help on that 23:18:11 my experience is it doesn't like doing that particular thing 23:18:50 it does but not on ecl 23:19:26 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has joined #lisp 23:19:26 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has quit [Changing host] 23:19:26 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:21:03 tcr: not on SBCL either 23:21:27 at least I've never got it to jump to files successfully in that context 23:22:27 what context specifically? 23:22:36 kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:30 -!- das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:49 -!- kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:31:08 holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:09 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:34:32 hefner: here? 23:34:43 'ere 23:35:45 How do you work with ECL? seems barely usable with slime 23:36:09 like no arglist display, no docstrings for symbols from si etc 23:36:43 good night 23:36:52 -!- serichsen [~user@f048097117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: good fight] 23:37:03 yeah, I gave up on it. I load a subset of my code into SBCL, compile definitions in that (to read the warnings), then do a separate compile and run with ECL. 23:37:46 occasionally I'll do the same thing but with ECL instead, but inevitably it blows up with some swank error and I learn my lesson. 23:38:20 it you rewind to ECL and Slime from around the first week of november, it was somewhat usable. :) 23:40:18 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:41:02 hefner: doing anything else with shuffletron? 23:41:36 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:45 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:44:56 holycow: It isn't on the immediate hacking queue, as the current (unreleased) version works fairly well. I run it every day. If I work on it, it will be an unplanned burst of hacking. 23:45:05 -!- tensorpudding [~user@99.148.206.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:45:15 no sweat :) just curious 23:45:22 i'm enjoying using .4 23:45:29 I did have the silly idea the other day that you could bolt a web interface on to it without much trouble. Impossible to distribute, though. 23:45:46 well, impractical to deploy in a binary release, I mean. 23:45:49 not a bad idea 23:46:42 well, not really, depends. you can bolt hutchentoot on to it if you want, but the complexity of that sort of thing is probably beyond what you wanted for for it i guess 23:47:49 and it really doesn't belong in a player anyway 23:47:50 I couldn't live with .4, it doesn't have the 'random' command for picking one random song. 23:48:21 ha! 23:48:55 yeah, I'd rather write a GUI anyway. 23:49:31 ephcon [~ephcon@student164-218.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 23:50:19 for a while i wondered why my random playlist was heave on ledzeppelin 23:50:27 then i realized i can only play .mp3 files :) 23:50:29 hehe 23:50:42 i gotta convert the whole thing to .mp3 or .ogg or something 23:51:26 It'll get ogg support eventually. I just have so few ogg files that it's hard to care. 23:51:51 no rush, its good enough as it is 23:52:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:53:24 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:53:43 does it do FLAC? 23:53:48 -!- davazp [~user@68.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:54:10 No, but it'd probably gain them both simultaneously. I'm more interested in FLAC, actually. 23:54:13 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:49 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:57 what context specifically? <-- compile errors 23:55:08 ASDF compile errors that is 23:55:40 you have to use ,load-system for it to work 23:55:45 Ralith: recent libsndfile can decode both FLAC and Ogg, so it's virtually free, provided it can also get the metadata out of the files. 23:55:49 tcr: I do 23:56:00 Well wfm 23:56:30 if not, libvorbisfile is trivial to use. 23:58:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]