00:00:13 now back again is shit puddle 00:00:24 cantor: M-x slime-repl-mode 00:00:39 How to get it working together 00:00:40 the problem is you want features from two major modes. 00:00:45 I see 00:00:53 Is it possible 00:00:56 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:07 cantor: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/MuMaMo 00:01:32 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:02:07 seems along time to spend to get coloured text 00:02:15 fe[nl]ix: I'm not 100% positive that'll fix his problem. He wants lisp's fontlock stuff, while preserving slime-repl-mode's "repl'ness". 00:03:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:03:04 cantor: yes, but likely non-trivial. My suggestion and what I do myself is use M-x slime-scratch and use C-j to send stuff to the "inferior" lisp. 00:03:39 okay 00:03:42 maybe this weekend I'll be motivated enough to look into it, it ought not be _that_ difficult, but the repl likes to color things with specific colors for specific meanings. 00:03:44 Let me try that 00:04:31 eg if you use slime-presentation (not sure the real name... its a module) results are red, and right clicking on them gives you a menu of things you can do with it... like inspect it. 00:04:55 you can copy those red output results as if they were lisp variables... hang on and I'll give you an example 00:05:16 I screwed everything up, RESTARTING emacs 00:05:56 nyef: (+ 1 nil) gives me a decent backtrace in HEAD/darwin/x86-64 already. 00:05:57 Okay now try slime-scratch right 00:05:59 ... the problem with /ignore is the same as with killfiles... doesn't ignore replies :( 00:06:14 drewc: irssi can be tweaked to do that too. 00:06:18 See http://paste.nixeagle.org/slime-presentations 00:06:22 okay 00:06:43 fe[nl]ix pasted "slime-send-dwim" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94393 00:07:05 pkhuong: i'll bet ERC can too, but likely only if they prefix it with a name, as i can't imagine how any other way would work :) 00:07:44 pkhuong: was it you how was talking about partially evaluating reflective towers of interpreters? cause that's right where my reading took me last night. 00:07:51 No it sill doesn't work 00:07:51 you who* 00:08:15 cantor: long and short is your problem is non-trivial when you start including other modules slime does. Using slime-scratch is as close as you are going to get. Especially with that attitude. 00:08:29 drewc: yes (on the second one) 00:08:42 not necessarily reflective though, i guess. 00:09:10 yeah, i remember you saying 'towers', which i associate with reflection. 00:09:11 cantor: just use slime-scratch + slime-send-dwim or something similar 00:09:23 pkhuong: got any good pointers to code or papers? 00:10:01 Can't think of anything specific. GLS had interesting things to say on the topic. 00:10:11 Okay I will figure this out myself, and apology to everyone for my purported "attitude". Bye for now 00:10:21 fe[nl]ix: hehe I wrote my own version of that :). It takes the result (if I'm in slime scratch) and puts it in a _comment_ below the form I just evaluated, and repeating evaluations updates the comment instead of putting tons and tons of pointless lines from the result (as C-j does). 00:11:11 He specifically compared them with monads: he believes interpreters compose better than monads [transformers]. 00:11:16 nixeagle: I copied that from somewhere :) 00:11:29 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-165-52.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: I wish the toaster to be happy, too.] 00:13:13 fe[nl]ix: ah I need to split mine out and release as something. I have a whole bunch of hacks I did, mind you its because I came to cl from elisp. :) 00:13:59 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:14:41 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:25 l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 00:18:13 pkhuong: interesting... i'll look for the reference 00:20:53 -!- cantor [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 00:23:13 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 00:24:37 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has joined #lisp 00:25:43 kgn [~kgn@129-97-159-91.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 00:28:29 holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 00:29:55 -!- gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:30:25 -!- Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo7.128.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:32:38 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:36:32 -!- heyhey [~4f9abcd4@gateway/web/freenode/x-jpzlcuulsvltfpzd] has left #lisp 00:40:22 -!- holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:26 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:42:04 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:20 -!- gigamonkey is now known as gigamonkey2 00:45:44 -!- gigamonkey2 is now known as gigamonkey 00:53:15 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:35 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:55:49 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:09 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:57:34 ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:13 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-7550.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:03:12 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: brb.] 01:03:20 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 01:05:29 -!- MissPiggy [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:05:31 raison [~raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 01:07:51 QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:08:22 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.82.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:08:48 cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 01:08:50 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:03 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Quit: Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net.] 01:11:03 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Quit: Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc] 01:18:05 Who's bounced the bots? 01:18:50 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:34 it wasn't me 01:19:44 Okay, just ghosted our squatter. 01:20:30 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:36 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:52 And looks like I did so just in time. 01:21:38 nice! 01:21:50 minion: chant! 01:21:51 MORE CODE 01:24:04 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:12 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 01:25:54 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:31 pemryan [~pem@2001:cc0:201e:107:221:86ff:fe1a:e5aa] has joined #lisp 01:26:50 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:50 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:26:50 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:26:52 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 01:34:06 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: brb.] 01:34:42 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:36:07 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:36:14 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:31 nyef: "just in time"? 01:37:02 kpreid: After lisppaste connected, but before minion tried to connect. 01:42:56 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:42 -!- kgn [~kgn@129-97-159-91.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:44:28 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:45:24 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-15-44.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 01:47:39 firecrow [~firecrow@cpe-66-65-0-210.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:48 -!- firecrow [~firecrow@cpe-66-65-0-210.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:49:32 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:51:01 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:19 -!- alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-0408.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:56:24 sasdf [~e289@202.92.144.128] has joined #lisp 01:56:38 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:01:47 -!- sasdf [~e289@202.92.144.128] has quit [] 02:03:32 ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:46 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:03:54 minion: chant! 02:03:54 MORE CODE 02:03:58 wow 02:06:25 There's more impressive things that minion can do with chant, you know. Try it again. 02:07:11 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:12 Then, based on the two data points, try and figure out what it did. 02:07:30 minion: chant 02:07:30 MORE IMPRESSIVE 02:07:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1] 02:07:41 minion: chant 02:07:41 MORE IMPRESSIVE 02:07:52 minion: chant? 02:07:52 MORE IMPRESSIVE 02:08:06 That's more than two data points. :-P 02:08:11 minion: Chant? 02:08:12 MORE THAN 02:08:15 See? 02:08:16 oh 02:08:20 chant? 02:08:23 minion: chant 02:08:23 MORE THAN 02:08:27 minion: chant 02:08:28 MORE THAN 02:08:35 Okay, no more messing with the bot. 02:08:42 more cowbell 02:08:45 its the 3rd word I think, and pm's will do it :P 02:08:46 We like our signal to noise ratio to remain high. 02:08:47 minion: chant 02:08:48 MORE COWBELL 02:08:49 minion: chant 02:08:49 MORE COWBELL 02:08:52 :( 02:09:01 more more 02:09:01 adu: pm it :) 02:09:04 adu: keep it to private messages please. 02:09:11 ok 02:09:18 The -other- cute thing it does is this... 02:09:22 minion: more clim! 02:09:23 clim me harder 02:09:23 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for me harder. 02:09:38 A blither of bots. 02:09:39 nyef: make them ignore each other XD 02:10:01 nixeagle: Nah, that's about the only one we've found that does that, and minion doesn't respond to specbot, so they don't loop. 02:10:05 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:36 -!- fatalnix [~Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:10:41 fatalnix [~Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:59 thankfully, I've seen people write quines to make language evalbots loop. Ever since I always suggest ignoring other bots when I see that stuff. :P 02:13:31 Heh. We actually have a policy of getting -rid- of evalbots in this channel. 02:13:43 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:44 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:44 (We've asked people to remove them before.) 02:14:01 nyef: good thing ^-^. I have seen this elsewhere, not here :P 02:14:02 can't the evalbots consult privately? 02:14:09 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:42 bjorkintosh: The problem is that most people would just ask the evalbot something in-channel instead of taking it to privmessage, thus destroying our SNR. 02:14:51 nyef: someone wrote a perl string that mutated to php and back putting a php and a perl evalbot in a loop. It was rather quite impressive if not annoying. 02:15:07 And if the evalbots don't respond in-channel, then they're useless for demonstrations. 02:15:27 At which point, just use a local interpreter already, you know? 02:15:27 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:15:52 nixeagle: I can believe it. Software laser again. 02:15:53 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:21 *nyef* passed up an opportunity not so long ago to attempt to put gigabot into an infinite loop. 02:16:31 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:48 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:09 -!- NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-57-82-249-5-59.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:10 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:23 NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-57-82-249-5-59.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:46 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:19:50 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:22:05 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:08 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:25:59 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:26:02 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:29:36 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:36:29 lithper2__ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:50 -!- lithper2__ is now known as lithper2 02:39:31 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-92-2.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:40:21 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:42 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:25 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:50:01 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:23 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:56 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-92-2.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:53:57 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-9-237.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:54:46 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:55 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:55:01 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:55:46 chessguy [~chessguy@pool-96-255-155-17.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:00 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@adsl-69-232-231-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 02:59:13 is there a way to specify an instance slot as private to a class in CLOS? If there are no readers/writers etc, the class methods can't get at them either is that right? 02:59:50 jsfb: you can always slot-value. 03:00:22 jsfb: http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/hax.html#ABSTRACT-CLASSES 03:00:24 if what you mean is allocating slots in classes, that's possible too, but you can still access it. 03:00:55 jsfb: you seem to be very confused about terminology... methods do not belong to classes, they belong to generic functions 03:01:00 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 03:01:06 that's the rub 03:01:21 drewc: I thought that he might mean "methods that dispatch on class metaobjects" 03:01:40 jsfb: there is also no private/public.. don't export an accessor if you don't want things accessed 03:01:51 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:01:51 jsfb: the short answer to "can I have private slots?" is no. The long answer is "There's a MOP. Yes." 03:02:02 but then my method cannot access it either right? 03:02:15 the the whole mop thing is a mystery to me at the moment... 03:02:19 sykopomp: well... you can always use an ininterned symbol as the slot name 03:02:23 the medium answer is: trust the programmer. 03:02:31 then nothing should be able to access it. 03:02:33 drewc: but... MOPery! 03:02:36 jsfb: Just don't export the symbol from the package. 03:02:48 jsfb: Use % in the name to indicate magic. 03:03:01 magic! 03:03:30 hmm, ok sykopomp short answer is enough for me at the moment, I'll explore it further, just wanted a high level direction... thankx 03:03:34 jsfb: it's a non problem, so no need to go looking for a solution... what is the worst thing that can happen if a programmer accesses your so called private slot? 03:03:45 lol 03:04:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:04:31 jsfb: the general idea is that CLOS doesn't really do encapsulation in the sense of data hiding. It's a very open system by default, and you're encouraged to use it that way. 03:04:45 but Lisp and CLOS being what they are, you are able to change that if you really feel strongly about it. 03:05:13 sykopomp: not really... lisp and CLOS being what they are, i can always change it back and access his slots anyway 03:05:23 I'm trying to maintain a cached version of a computation after other slots are set to be retrieved at arbitrary times... 03:05:56 drewc: that's true 03:06:23 Encapsulation is essentially a social problem. 03:06:23 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:06:42 Zhivago: Java programmers are all liars and thieves? 03:06:50 You need ways to indicate to people which interfaces are appropriate to use. 03:07:16 No. They just help people to be disciplined. :) 03:07:16 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:07:18 I just have to change my way of thinking from prior language features etc 03:07:22 Zhivago: I can see how it is useful to use those markings as guidance and documentation, as opposed to enforcement. 03:07:33 s/how it is/how it might be/ 03:07:35 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:39 don't export classes! 03:07:50 good thing you can't export classes in CL! 03:07:58 exactly :) 03:08:01 Well, you can export class names. 03:08:11 exactly :) 03:08:16 don't define slot-values as part of your interface 03:08:32 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:09:01 davazp [~user@68.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:06 ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:11 Yes. I prefer slots to be for internal communication. 03:09:13 how do I set state internal to the class if I don't have an accessor? 03:09:31 jsfb: it's your class... do what you want with it! 03:09:37 I being the method (er generic function) 03:10:01 jsfb: are you talking about class allocation? 03:10:18 jsfb: You can use with-slots and slot-value to access slots directly. 03:10:21 jsfb: i think you're confused... just because you don't export an accessor does not mean you can't access a slot... use the accessor.. be it slot-value or a generic function 03:10:23 I'm not sure 03:10:29 I believe java monkeys usually call class allocation 'static' 03:10:34 I am confused believe me, just getting into it 03:10:48 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:11:17 jsfb: It is a fairly radical change. 03:11:20 I don't mean external to the package, external to the class itself, but as was mentioned, methods aren't owned by the class anyway... 03:11:34 sykopomp: i need to write up my 'CLOS has nothing to do with objects and everything to do with protocols' tutorial :) 03:11:39 jsfb: The key is to think of classes as being passive, like structs in C. 03:11:57 "there are no slots, there are no members" 03:11:59 jsfb: With the active parts all in generic-functions, like functions in C. 03:12:14 Random thought: "My heart is human, my blood is boiling, my brain AMD" just doesn't have the same ring to it. 03:12:15 and why is there a defstruct and a defclass I don't quite get why structs are still useful 03:12:27 jsfb: It's just that you can extend these functions to operate on different class signatures dynamically. 03:12:44 jsfb: They predate CLOS. 03:12:52 jsfb: structs are fast, they don't go through the slot-value or inheritance protocols 03:12:53 but if the arg lists for the same name must have equal lengths apparently 03:12:54 structs are also very lightweight and fast :) 03:13:37 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-132.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:13:40 jsfb: there is only one generic function 03:13:40 I actually am using structs for that reason, but wanted to play around with classes and then got a bit verklempt 03:13:49 so it only takes the arguments it takes 03:13:52 structs are a pain in the ass to use interactively. 03:13:52 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 03:13:59 I'd say stick to classes until you know you need slots. 03:14:06 structs* 03:14:11 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:12 ^ 03:14:24 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:29 i like structs of :type list or :type vector when working interactively 03:14:47 eventually they either become real structs, or classes 03:14:59 I like that SBCL actually seems to care about the :type argument. 03:15:06 (in struct slots) 03:15:38 sbcl will typecheck stucts and standard-objects given the right safety settings 03:15:49 drewc: vector and list "structs" make it harder to check types. 03:16:15 drewc: I don't remember it actually checking standard-object slots. It seemed to ignore them. 03:16:16 What's the most elegant way (using loop or something standard, not series) to turn 1 list into 2 - split on some predicate. E.g. (1 2 3 4 5) into (1 2) and (3 4 5) on detecting the 3 03:16:25 ignore the :type arg* 03:16:27 sykopomp: (safety 3). 03:16:34 I.e. get a scope with 2 variables set to the lists. 03:16:40 pkhuong: yeah, this is true... if i need types i usually use classes unless i'm using a struct _just_ for that purpose 03:16:46 pkhuong: oh, sweet. 03:16:48 modius: Loop can collect into multiple variables. 03:17:04 Oops, I misread that completely. 03:17:05 Modius: collect ... into. 03:17:25 no need 03:17:30 (loop for 03:17:31 or actually, loop on, and return the tail. 03:17:33 yea 03:17:46 I'm surprised we don't have a built-in list surgery function that does that already. 03:18:06 sykopomp: we do, it's called LOOP ;) 03:18:11 sykopomp: CL isn't *that* list-oriented. Some SRFI has that, and so does haskell. 03:18:34 drewc: LOOP is more general. We also have FIND/POSITION/etc, all of which loop 'covers' 03:19:11 sykopomp: true, but we don't have a function for every permutation of LOOP, because we have LOOP 03:19:20 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 03:19:38 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 03:20:45 loop on collecting until finally gotcha 03:21:07 multi-value return into multiple-value-bind, or something else preferred? 03:21:41 Modius: if you need to return two values, and don't need to pass them around together, then that's the way to go 03:21:53 two or more* 03:23:12 Is there a symbol that can be used as a "dummy" without needing declare ignore? 03:24:02 Modius: no. 03:24:08 Modius: Occasionally (depending on the construct), NIL serves. 03:25:17 nyef: Is nil portably kosher in (loop for (nil b nil c) in . . . . ) ? 03:25:23 Modius: yes. 03:25:29 Thanks all 03:25:29 that's one of the places 03:25:45 This is of course a trivial operation; but these are always spots to learn a little more. 03:26:25 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:52 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:26:57 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 03:27:27 this partial evaluation stuff is cool... write a horrible algorithm, and partially evaluate it until the optimum one emerges? brilliant! 03:29:32 erh yeah... Magic compilers are hard to work with though. How can you know ahead of time how smart the compiler will be on your atrocious code? 03:30:24 pkhuong: Doesn't that depends on how long the compiler is allowed to run and what else it's allowed to look at for inspiration? 03:31:01 pkhuong: you don't have to know ahead of time if the compiler is extensible 03:31:38 ... Bloody metacompiler protocols. 03:31:46 drewc: unless you write exactly what you're looking for, a really smart system could let other extensions get in the way. 03:31:58 Hygenic metacompilers? 03:31:58 nyef: and the phase of the moon maybe. 03:32:50 pkhuong: that's where the reflective tower of interpreters comes in 03:33:27 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:59 drewc: how? 03:34:11 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:34:13 performance doesn't really have a simple compile-time metric. 03:34:51 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:03 yeah, this is true. 03:36:26 So, not only is it easy to have a non-confluent system with enough extensions, but transforms aren't always optimisations. 03:41:47 i believe that there is not magic trick for confluent systems 03:43:03 but we can add weights to these rules for running heuristically these confluent systems 03:43:27 nyef: whaddido? 03:43:52 slyrus: Backtrace on internal-error on osx x86-64 has apparently been broken since day one. 03:44:00 Your commit, your fault. ;-P 03:44:11 minion: paste 94371? 03:44:12 Paste number 94371: "For those following along at home, this is what I'm proposing as a fix for the x86-64-darwin backtrace problem" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/94371 03:45:02 ah, thanks for fixing then. 03:45:55 It's not committed yet. Still waiting for confirmation that it works from someone I trust to know if it causes additional problems. 03:46:06 But I expect to commit this weekend regardless. 03:47:00 -!- chessguy [~chessguy@pool-96-255-155-17.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: chessguy] 03:47:30 <_deepfire> Ok, I think GDB won against me. Catching bugs in a twisted maze of a serial-line-oriented communication protocol is a bit too much for 7AM. 03:48:13 'swhat you get for messing with GDB. There's a -reason- I don't even bother installing it. 03:48:18 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:33 (Said reason is mostly laziness, but if I can twist the truth then I can twist the truth.) 03:49:23 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:50:20 <_deepfire> I guess I'll try downgrading from 7.0.1 to 6.8, just to clear my conscience. 03:51:01 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 03:55:25 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:55:48 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:57:55 nyef: patch is looking good, btw. No regression, and a couple unexpected successes. 03:58:48 -!- maelcolu1m [~maelcolui@client-80-5-175-86.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:59:09 Okay, I'll commit when I have a chance tomorrow or the weekend. 04:00:00 aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has joined #lisp 04:00:35 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 04:00:35 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:00:35 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 04:02:43 heh. I quite like GDB (though I prefer working with DDD) 04:03:26 at least GDB let me know that the calling sequence for dynamic linking fucked itself up (after dubious use of stepping and breakpoints) 04:04:28 I just find GDB to be irritating to use at best, and the primary value is -occasionally- getting a postmortem stack trace. 04:04:57 haha, stack trace. the bug I encountered destroyed stack trace, so I had to catch it *before* it happened 04:05:07 Back when I used to write C programs, somewhere north of 99 cores out of 100 gave useless stack traces. 04:05:16 ("0x0 in ??" as the only frame.) 04:05:21 yeah 04:05:53 Bloody irritating when that happens. 04:05:56 in my case, return from dynamically-linked function (on little-endian MIPS32) destroyed the stack 04:06:06 And good luck using it to debug anything with the SBCL calling convention. 04:06:16 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:06:17 -!- DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-61-202.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:06:37 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:06:39 haha 04:07:29 Yeah, it's amusing in retrospect, but it really wasn't funny when I was trying to track the bloody problem down. 04:07:39 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 04:07:56 Of course, these days I have a far better weapon for debugging calling-convention problems. 04:08:41 nyef: heh... it's always amusing in retrospect, like my curse regarding MIPS systems... 04:08:59 (to be exact, MIPS32 + dynamic linking + me = disaster) 04:09:40 Ever find one where a MIPS interrupt service routine asserts that because it's running interrupts must have been enabled, and thus enables them unconditionally on exit? 04:10:52 (Turned out to be something like a four cycle window in which an interrupt could occur between setting the mask bit and the interrupts actually being masked due to pipeline write hazards or something like that.) 04:11:55 -!- thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:12:00 lol 04:13:44 what is the SBCL calling convention? 04:13:52 adu: Depends on the platform. 04:13:57 thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 04:14:11 x86? 04:14:19 ...-32? 04:14:32 That's actually the one that's discussed in the internals manual. 04:15:04 (And I should know, I wrote that section of the internals manual after I changed the x86 calling convention.) 04:15:05 stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 04:15:30 -!- stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:33 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 04:16:04 http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/sbcl-internals/Calling-Convention.html#Calling-Convention 04:16:26 interesting 04:16:48 Anyway, that's a starting point. 04:17:01 fihi09` [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:04 That, and using DISASSEMBLE on a few functions. 04:17:14 i'm fascinated by languages with multiple returns 04:17:39 adu: you mean returning multiple values? 04:17:42 ya 04:17:44 -!- slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:46 Though there's a problem with DISASSEMBLE eliding the function prologue, arg parsing, etc. on some functions. 04:17:59 adu: iirc MMIX had multiple return in hw 04:18:32 I believe nyef said something akin to "that sounds just like SBCL's calling convention" when I described it :D 04:18:47 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:56 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:36 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.135.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:19:36 -!- bfein [~bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:19:36 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:19:44 I'm researching how multiple return values are handled in compilers 04:20:07 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Client Quit] 04:20:18 xinming [~hyy@218.73.135.57] has joined #lisp 04:20:30 adu, they're placed in memory. 04:20:32 any questions? :D 04:20:35 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:20:45 Well, SBCL does some interesting stuff there, as multiple return values are only ever generated in one way: calling the VALUES function. 04:21:06 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:09 right 04:21:15 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:21:23 The compiler has a couple of ways to inline it, if it even survives dataflow analysis. 04:21:36 bfein [~bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:41 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:07 Of course, then you get things like (apply #'values (multiple-value-list ...)). 04:22:25 Where it doesn't even cons up the list, it just keeps track of the values on the stack. 04:22:42 interesting 04:22:47 And then there's the mess that is passing values around in a non-local exit... 04:26:25 benny` [~benny@i577A774B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:26:49 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7277.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:26:53 tankrim [~qsvans@c-a3f9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 04:26:58 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:03 is (list 1 2 (values 3 4)) supposed to return '(1 2 3)? 04:30:11 Yes. 04:30:17 Well, modulo the quote thing. 04:30:35 It returns something EQUAL to the value of '(1 2 3). 04:30:41 ok 04:31:23 clhs multiple-value-call 04:31:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_multip.htm 04:31:24 There are only... three? Something like that, forms that can -accept- anything beyond the "primary" return value from a form. 04:31:26 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:32:01 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 04:32:09 (And note that the "primary" value of (values) is NIL, even though it returns no values per the multiple-value convention.) 04:33:03 <_deepfire> multiple-value-call, values-list and values? 04:33:11 Well, there's progn, multiple-value-prog1 to consider as well. 04:33:14 <_deepfire> er, scratch the last 04:33:30 multiple-value-bind, multiple-value-setq, multiple-value-list, etc. 04:33:38 _deepfire: multiple-value-list you mean 04:33:41 call-with-multiple-values 04:33:48 don't forget multiple-value-limit 04:33:50 _deepfire: m-v-b. 04:33:51 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:34:01 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 04:34:11 nth-value 04:34:17 Okay, so five forms? 04:34:18 <_deepfire> nyef, yeah, I should keep my mouth shut when I'm in walking corpse state.. 04:34:19 So, a few more than three. :) 04:34:33 does SETF VALUES count? 04:34:35 Of course, you only need to have -one- of those forms as the primitive. 04:34:43 drewc: No, it doesn't. ;-P 04:34:58 hmm.. 04:35:00 (setf (values ...) (values ..)) works 04:35:14 (setf (foo x) (values 1 2 3)) is also possible 04:35:15 adu: Use get-setf-expansion on a values-form. 04:35:56 adeht: As shown in many, many places in CLIM, yes. 04:36:45 i get *** - GET-SETF-EXPANSION: Argument 1 is not a SETF place. 04:37:14 adu: Yeah, try with places or potential places rather than constants. 04:37:58 i get *** - Argument 1 is not a macroexpansion environment 04:38:38 n/m its ok 04:38:44 NIL is defined to be an acceptable environment. 04:41:06 should I be using (GET-SETF-EXPANSION 'values)? 04:41:47 or (get-setf-expansion (values a b))? 04:41:56 (get-setf-expansion '(values foo bar)) should do the trick. 04:42:33 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 04:42:40 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:42:41 ah i see 04:42:46 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:16 Then you have things like (get-setf-expansion '(gethash foo bar))... 04:44:31 Or, more fun, (get-setf-expansion '(values (gethash foo bar) baz))... 04:44:51 Of course, these have more to do with setf than with the nature of multiple values. 04:45:01 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:18 of course 04:48:10 lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-203-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:12 -!- lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-235-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:53:49 -!- benny` is now known as benny 04:54:25 GeorgCantor [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has joined #lisp 04:55:36 Guys could you give me an example of vertical bar quote 04:55:50 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:25 -!- GeorgCantor is now known as arthurschopenhau 04:56:34 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:56:54 (make-symbol "Example") 04:57:02 <_deepfire> aruthurschopenhau, '|This is a symbol| 04:57:16 Or that. 04:58:00 But that is supposed to be a string right 04:58:13 and a string is supposed to self-evaluating 04:58:34 No, it's a symbol. 04:58:39 but when I tried it bactrace came up 04:58:47 Oh its a symbol 04:58:50 not a string 04:58:51 Unbound variable, right? 04:59:21 No I thought it can be a string 05:00:11 This particular escape method is only used for symbol and package names. 05:00:33 oh got it thanks, will come back later 05:00:53 -!- arthurschopenhau [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 05:01:25 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:01:30 nh_ [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:01:30 -!- nh_ [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 05:03:28 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:47 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:06:23 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 05:06:28 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:06:33 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:07:18 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 05:09:38 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:46 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:14:43 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15:35 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:17 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:18:21 -!- tobetchi [~tobetchi@p296b0a.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:21:11 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:46 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:21:52 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:27 Dawgmatic [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:36 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:08 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-252.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 05:24:58 -!- Dawgmatic [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:27:24 -!- Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:28:52 -!- Skewb [Skewb@83.231.102.33] has quit [] 05:33:23 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:34:43 -!- a-s [~user@93.112.117.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:35:18 jimster [~jimster@cpe-70-116-158-133.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:39:00 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:46 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:40 -!- jimster [~jimster@cpe-70-116-158-133.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:41:47 gigabot [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:59 nyef: gigabot has some new tricks 05:42:39 dash [~washort@adsl-99-49-12-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:48 Oh? 05:42:54 gigabot: let's talk 05:42:54 sidewinder128 [~sidewinde@201.137.195.99] has joined #lisp 05:42:54 Okay. If you say something I'll assume you're talking to me. Say 'Done.' when you're done. 05:42:59 who is john mccarthy 05:42:59 John McCarthy is a Stanford computer scientist. He invented lisp and also played a role in the invention of time sharing. 05:43:02 is he alive 05:43:02 Yes. 05:43:05 who is turing 05:43:05 Alan Turing was a British mathematician who proved that all computers are formally equivalent. He also kickstarted the field of AI when he invented what is now known as the Turing Test. 05:43:08 gigabot: How can I add two numbers? 05:43:08 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 05:43:08 is he alive 05:43:08 No. He died in 1954 several weeks before his 42nd birthday. 05:43:11 done 05:43:24 howdy. give an .asd file, can I get SBCL to do asdf-install for all its dependencies? 05:43:34 i mean, is there an existing shortcut for doing so. :) 05:43:38 gigabot: is John McCarthy alive? 05:43:39 I'm not sure. 05:43:42 -!- sidewinder128 [~sidewinde@201.137.195.99] has left #lisp 05:43:50 what is scheme 05:43:50 Scheme is a language in the Lisp family. Some people will argue about whether Scheme *is* "a Lisp". 05:43:55 what people 05:43:55 Crazy people. 05:43:57 done 05:43:57 Okay. If you need me again, I'll be around. 05:43:59 gigabot: s/died/was murdered/ 05:43:59 Whoops, I don't quite get you. 05:44:04 gigabot: John McCarthy is alive. 05:44:05 Sorry, my brain is still under construction. 05:44:15 oh and there's this ... 05:44:24 gigabot: let's talk 05:44:24 Okay. If you say something I'll assume you're talking to me. Say 'Done.' when you're done. 05:44:31 add a rule 05:44:32 Okay. What's the pattern? 05:44:38 Oho. 05:44:39 PAIP 05:44:39 Okay. What should I say when someone says: 'paip'? 05:44:54 Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming 05:44:54 Got it. Thanks. 05:44:57 add a rule 05:44:59 What is paip 05:44:59 paradigms of artificial intelligence programming 05:45:03 aha 05:45:14 sykopomp: you need to address him or say 'let's talk' first. 05:45:22 gigabot: let's talk 05:45:23 Okay. If you say something I'll assume you're talking to me. Say 'Done.' when you're done. 05:45:25 hello? any humans still here? 05:45:26 done 05:45:26 Okay. If you need me again, I'll be around. 05:45:31 add a rule 05:45:31 dash: most of us. 05:45:31 Okay. What's the pattern? 05:45:39 gigamonkey: Hi. 05:45:59 Hi dash. 05:46:06 Ralith_ [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 05:46:07 that dead sexy book 05:46:07 Okay. What should I say when someone says: 'that dead sexy book'? 05:46:20 dash: asdf-install should download the dependencies.. but why do you use asdf-install and not clbuild? 05:46:21 Practical Common Lisp 05:46:21 Got it. Thanks. 05:46:24 done 05:46:24 Okay. If you need me again, I'll be around. 05:46:31 gigabot: that dead sexy book 05:46:31 practical common lisp 05:46:31 yay for spaces \o/ 05:46:39 Actually, hang on a sec 05:46:42 boo for string-downcase. 05:47:07 gigamonkey: What is the syntax for pattern variables? 05:47:23 sykopomp: I actually had a rule for d-s-b already. 05:47:36 gigabot: What is that-dead-sexy-book. 05:47:36 Practical Common Lisp is the sexiest book I know of. (By the way, I'm not minion; you don't need the hyphens.) 05:47:49 hehe 05:48:18 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:48:23 gigabot: are you human? 05:48:23 Sorry, my brain is still under construction. 05:48:24 pjb: well, on the patten side you can use *. However for interactively added rules there's presently no way to provide non-literal responses. 05:48:37 ok. 05:49:01 The current interactive teaching feature is really just a proof of concept. 05:49:16 -!- dash [~washort@adsl-99-49-12-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:49:17 They're saved to a file and I can move them into the main brain file and fix the capitalization, etc. 05:49:19 gigabot: Tell me about gentle 05:49:19 tell him about gentle 05:49:29 :-( 05:49:31 heh. I didn't expect that. 05:49:54 gigabot: let's talk 05:49:54 Okay. If you say something I'll assume you're talking to me. Say 'Done.' when you're done. 05:49:54 maybe should redirect to minion :) 05:49:56 add a rule 05:49:56 Okay. What's the pattern? 05:50:00 gentle 05:50:00 Okay. What should I say when someone says: 'gentle'? 05:50:09 A Gentle Introduction to Lisp 05:50:10 Got it. Thanks. 05:50:16 tell pjb about gentle 05:50:16 pjb: a gentle introduction to lisp 05:50:19 done 05:50:19 Okay. If you need me again, I'll be around. 05:50:30 minion: gentle 05:50:31 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 05:50:31 add a rule 05:50:39 gigabot: add a rule 05:50:39 Okay. What's the pattern? 05:50:44 pbj 05:50:47 slyrus: you need to address him or say 'let's talk' first. 05:50:52 gigabot: pbj 05:50:53 Okay. What should I say when someone says: 'pbj'? 05:51:04 gigabot: Peanut Butter and Jelly 05:51:04 Got it. Thanks. 05:51:10 gigabot: tell pjb about pbj 05:51:10 pjb: peanut butter and jelly 05:51:13 nice 05:51:16 I could fix that so things like 'add a rule' implicitly start an exchange. 05:51:30 But then everything you say would be responded to until you say 'done.' 05:51:32 gigamonkey: looks like they already do 05:51:44 adeht: I'm pretty sure they don't. 05:52:04 gigamonkey: what did slyrus just do? 05:52:11 Hmmm. I'm surprised he didn't respond to that nice. 05:52:24 gigabot: nice 05:52:25 Sorry, my brain is still under construction. 05:52:25 adeht: he addressed gigabot explicitly each time. 05:52:36 Ah, he never started a conversation. That's why. Duh. 05:52:40 gigabot: chant 05:52:40 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 05:52:44 bah 05:52:53 gigamonkey: ah ok 05:52:54 minion: chant 05:52:55 MORE PLAUSIBLE 05:53:13 minion: tell gigabot about that-dead-sexy-book 05:53:13 05:53:14 gigabot: look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:53:14 Sorry, my brain is still under construction. 05:53:33 gigabot: tell minion to chant 05:53:33 Sorry, I'm not allowed to talk to her. 05:53:36 :D 05:53:36 this thing needs a web interface 05:53:46 gigabot: tell gigabot about that-dead-sexy-book 05:53:46 Eh, I already know. 05:53:56 slyrus: you like playing with fire. 05:54:01 :) 05:54:23 nixeagle: Careful, that way lies the unholy cross between minion, specbot, 13 or more lisppaste bots, an xml-rpc server, and paste.lisp.org. 05:54:25 nixeagle: I have a simple one built but it's not up anywhere yet. 05:54:36 Good morning! 05:54:46 gigabot: tell beach good morning 05:54:46 Pardon? 05:54:48 You can also talk directly to gigabot if you /msg him. 05:54:55 gigabot: introduce yourself to beach 05:54:55 Hello beach, I'm gigabot. 05:55:08 gigabot: Nice to meet you! 05:55:08 Sorry, my brain is still under construction. 05:55:08 gigabot: make me a sandwich 05:55:08 Pardon? 05:55:09 gigabot, are you replacing humans? 05:55:24 uhm.. 05:55:25 slyrus: Shouldn't that be "sudo make me a sandwich"? 05:55:27 amnesiac: gotta use a colon 05:55:36 gigabot: are you replacing humans? 05:55:37 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 05:55:47 nyef: yes, that's the next line 05:56:37 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:57:03 slyrus: here you go 05:57:09 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:15 gigabot: make me a sandwhich 05:57:15 No. 05:57:22 gigabot: sudo make me a sandwhich 05:57:22 Okay. 05:57:24 gigabot: hello 05:57:25 Hello. 05:57:25 nice 05:57:26 gigabot: sudo make me a sandwhich 05:57:26 You could have asked normally first. Jeesh. 05:58:11 gigabot: let's talk 05:58:11 Okay. If you say something I'll assume you're talking to me. Say 'Done.' when you're done. 05:58:14 is scheme a lisp 05:58:14 No. 05:58:15 is scheme a lisp 05:58:15 Yes. 05:58:18 really 05:58:18 Well, maybe. 05:58:20 is scheme a lisp 05:58:20 Depends who you ask. 05:58:24 i'm asking you 05:58:24 Why do you m asking me? 05:58:32 is scheme a lisp 05:58:32 No. 05:58:32 is gigabot noisy? 05:58:38 why not 05:58:38 Some folks feel it diverged too far from the platonic ideal of Lisp. 05:58:39 done 05:58:39 Okay. If you need me again, I'll be around. 05:58:48 Zhivago: FSVO 'noisy' possibly. 05:58:50 Does gigabot like boy robots or girl robots? 05:59:01 lol 05:59:18 Zhivago: if you mean does he respond to things not addressed to him, no not really. 06:00:13 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.139.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:00:36 NorthStar [email@89-180-213-4.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 06:03:13 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04:43 gigamonkey: I think he was implying that this is bringing a lot of noise to the channel (I don't really agree) 06:05:32 I don't know, I was thinking about making a similar comment. 06:05:53 Yeah, I get it. Mostly he's been hanging out in #gigabot but I wanted to show some folks who saw him yesterday how he's growing up (a bit). 06:06:01 Anyway, he's going to go back there now. 06:06:11 Feel free to come play with him if you want. 06:06:25 -!- gigabot [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 06:10:31 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:12:02 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:58 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:16:06 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:17:40 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:19:03 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:13 maybe some kind of rate limiter? 06:19:28 Like ignoring repeated questions (with a warning?) 06:21:36 Kazinator [~fedora@d154-20-32-179.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:09 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 06:24:02 p_l: sure. 06:24:14 He can always suggest folks take it to a private conversation. 06:28:43 kumi [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:28:51 greetings 06:29:33 -!- davazp [~user@68.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:30:14 -!- kumi [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:31:20 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 06:33:54 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-21-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:35:56 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-38-149.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:36:36 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 06:38:22 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 06:40:18 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:42:38 Okay, I'm done for tonight. And possibly for the weekend, though I do have a patch to commit at some point. 06:42:42 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-146-224.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 06:44:17 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 06:44:55 gigamonkey: I was planning for mine to hold "context" of conversation, waiting for extra input unless it could derive that the other person waits for answer or a timeout was reached (or it was an explicit command) 06:45:30 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:45:46 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:43 p_l: that's basically what gigabot does. Though I haven't implemented a timeout. 06:48:23 However it seems like a bad idea to get into a mode where the bot responds to everything you say without some explicit action on your part. 06:50:01 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:50:37 I agree, from experience noisy bots tend to quickly be silenced; perhaps with the exception of url shortening ones, but then again that requires explicit url pasting from an user 06:51:30 gigamonkey: I asked before, and I could probably find it in the logs, but what is your aim with gigabot? 06:51:39 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:52:37 beach: you mean for this channel or in general? 06:54:13 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:25 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.135.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:58:16 xinming [~hyy@218.73.135.57] has joined #lisp 07:03:35 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:05:48 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:05:52 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:07:22 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:09:05 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:12:23 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:14:38 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:15:52 splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-vcwlugyogatvvare] has joined #lisp 07:16:00 morning 07:16:20 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:23 morning. 07:19:51 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:36 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 07:24:50 gigamonkey: I didn't realize there was a difference. why don't you tell me both? 07:24:54 hello splittist 07:26:36 -!- aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:32 gigamonkey: I was wondering if there was a particular reason that PCL does not discuss defstruct? 07:28:42 das64: because I disapprove of it. ;-) 07:29:23 beach: well, in general I'm just playing around with the idea toward potentially using the code as part of an online help system for a project I'm working on. 07:29:49 For this channel, my goal would be to make a bot that folks would find useful and entertaining without being annoying. 07:30:13 gigamonkey: So you want it to cover all possible subjects? 07:30:14 A worthy goal, much like finding the holy grail. 07:30:16 Obviously if I demonstrate a bunch of stuff in a row, that could get annoying, I realize. 07:30:25 beach: not necessarily. 07:30:31 You need to change your nick to sir_gigalot. 07:30:55 Zhivago: not really. I think minion is useful and sometimes entertaining. 07:31:03 gigamonkey: I am trying to figure out whether it would be worthwhile to teach it about things like street names in Saigon, or of I should restrict myself to the CLHS. 07:31:47 beach: I see. Well, the current "teaching" function is pretty limited anyway. 07:31:53 If only there were a standard representation for dicritical markings on irc. 07:32:16 But probably Lisp lore of various kinds would be more helpful. 07:32:28 Zhivago: I thought we pretty much agreed to use UTF-8. Am I wrong? 07:32:59 beach: what about canonicalization (sp?) of UTF-8? 07:33:11 The most useful thing is to come up with patterns of questions. The underlying engine works by matching patterns and then reducing them to other forms until it hits some base case that it knows something to say about. 07:33:14 p_l: What about it? 07:34:14 p_l: Aren't those questions that are interesting only if you are going to process the text automatically? When communicating with other people, that seems less important. I could be wrong of course. 07:34:47 beach: I guess it depends whether the bot would be required to deal with understanding text that includes those 07:35:10 *p_l* is "slightly" scatterbrained 07:35:45 p_l: Ah, yes. I took Zhivago's remark as something unrelated to bots. You are probably right. 07:36:13 otoh, gigabot is based on AIML, isn't it? 07:36:30 Well, the ideas of AIML. 07:36:45 So I guess it doesn't try to delve into actual parsing of language? 07:37:17 Right. Just simple tokenization, pattern matching on the tokens, with a bit of normalization of things like contractions. 07:37:42 And it has some kludgy ways to do certain kinds of "grammatical" transformations when generating responses. 07:37:47 But they're pretty lame. 07:37:59 Since anything non-lame requires NLP. 07:38:20 *p_l* wants his (currently frozen) bot project to use NLP 07:40:56 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:40:56 Yeah, good luck with that. ;-) 07:42:43 Alright, bedtime here in California. Goodnight. 07:43:28 odd. the following are valid for the most part: bed time, on-feet time. and sitzfleisch time. 07:43:55 that's about all most humans do: lie, stand, or sit. 07:44:15 the atom/car/cdr/cons/cond of it all. 07:44:52 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 07:46:57 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:48:12 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:50:38 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:19 -!- das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:51:46 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:52:35 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:53:16 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:53:20 fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 07:53:47 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.170.157.213] has joined #lisp 07:55:29 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:56:28 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.170.157.213] has quit [Client Quit] 07:57:10 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 07:57:14 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net 07:57:27 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 07:59:17 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 07:59:29 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:54 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 08:00:10 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:00:26 alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-0408.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 08:02:32 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:02:52 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:44 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754a09.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:13 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:09:01 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:11 good morning 08:14:32 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:17:15 -!- Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:18:29 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:23:45 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:25:31 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.104.45.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 08:26:33 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:45 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:27:12 ShadowChild [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 08:28:55 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:29:51 -!- joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:31:04 -!- lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:34:35 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:35:36 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:41:28 joga [joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:42:21 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:35 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:43:43 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:36 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-vxpotwnozxwjdcwf] has joined #lisp 08:46:20 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:46:45 arthurschopenhau [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has joined #lisp 08:47:16 jdz [~jdz@2a02:500:3330:40b:223:6cff:fe8e:5034] has joined #lisp 08:47:31 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 08:49:34 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 08:57:08 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:57:28 lukjadOO7 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 08:59:12 -!- ShadowChild [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:00:18 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:00:45 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:06 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:05:17 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:06:05 hello, 09:09:22 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 09:11:55 in a plist like ("a" 1 "b" 2 "c" 3) getf doesn't work , is it correct to use member ? 09:12:10 use alist instead? 09:12:31 member will match values too 09:13:17 (loop for (key value) on plist by #'cddr when (equal key item) return value) 09:13:31 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:44 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:13:46 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:16:42 stassats`, maybe for what I need (joining two (a|p)lists values) member is cleaner 09:17:22 member is incorrect 09:17:36 ah, why ? 09:18:53 (member 1 '("a" 1) :test #'equal) => (1) 09:19:23 as i said, it doesn't distinguish between keys and values 09:20:32 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:21:10 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 09:21:15 Jabberwockey [~jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 09:24:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:24:46 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:27:54 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:11 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:30:57 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:32:30 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 09:32:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:33:41 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:39:51 djburiedalive [~djburieda@adsl-70-42-53.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:00 lichtblau [~user@77-22-100-44-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:32 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:49 is gensym thread safe? 09:44:58 -!- djburiedalive [~djburieda@adsl-70-42-53.gnv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:45:09 where? 09:45:38 CL 09:45:57 CL has no threads 09:46:32 ok so it depends on the implementation 09:46:55 do they all implement it thread safe (when they have threads), or is it not that simple? 09:47:17 sbcl would be most interesting at the moment 09:47:19 demmeln: what problem are you imagining? the same gensym name in two different threads? 09:47:30 how will this cause harm? 09:47:42 dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:47:48 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:47:51 (I don't mean to imply your problem is imaginary, btw) 09:49:37 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754a09.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:44 splittist: I'm not sure how it works. Assuming symbol create is always thread safe (everything else would just not make sense) I guess the only side effect of gensym is incrementing the counter. So the only "problem" could be cosmetic. I have just never even thought about it and it popped in my head just now. Generally I don't take my own inability to imagine a problem as a very good argument for thread safety... 09:52:50 demmeln: check whether *gensym-counter* is thread-local 09:53:02 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:53:45 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:53:51 tcr: whats the easiest way to do that? 09:53:53 -!- jdz [~jdz@2a02:500:3330:40b:223:6cff:fe8e:5034] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54:00 jdz [~jdz@2a02:500:3330:40b:223:6cff:fe8e:5034] has joined #lisp 09:54:36 jdz_ [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:55:08 thread locality isn't the only way to make it thread safe 09:55:27 demmeln: M-. sb-thread:make-thread, also M-_ *gensym-counter* 09:56:18 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:19 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:56:19 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:56:35 demmeln: sbcl does not seem to make its binding thread-local, ccl for example does 09:56:44 not that it matters 09:57:08 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-32-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:57:21 sbcl changes it atomically, as far as i can tell 09:58:02 i mean the number, not binding 09:58:10 huh? how do you come to that conclusion? 09:58:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@2a02:500:3330:40b:223:6cff:fe8e:5034] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:58:29 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 10:00:51 tcr: i mean if it's a bignum, it should be safe 10:00:57 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:49 that's what i mean, not what i know for sure 10:01:59 Or you could think about how the two, possibly identically names, uninterned symbols in different threads could interact badly. 10:02:41 demmeln: I take your point about not always being able to imagine the worst, though (: 10:04:06 splittist: It's easy to think one could misuse gensym as a means to create unique identifiers 10:04:10 merl15 [~merl@80-121-52-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:04:48 bah that's ambiguous 10:05:25 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:05:33 -!- myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-122-10.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:06:20 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 10:06:47 tcr: ^^ 10:09:04 splittist: interact badly? Is that an example of a problem one might think of, but which does not happen? Otherwise i don't get it. 10:09:43 demmeln: uninterned symbols are unique by identity, not by name 10:10:50 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-251-125.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:08 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:44 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:12:07 stassats`: I really wonder how an implementation could modify bignums in-place: (let* ((x (1+ most-positive-fixnum)) (y x)) (incf y) (values (eq x y) (eql x y))) 10:18:10 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:21:43 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.104.45.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:23:32 tcr: sure thing 10:23:45 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@0x50a5b409.virnxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:25:19 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.105.148.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 10:26:21 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 10:26:51 (progn (foo ) (in-package :bar) (baz )) should do what you expect it to, right? What i mean is, that baz is taken from package :bar ? 10:27:36 yes because progn preserves toplevelness 10:27:38 Only if that progn is a top-level form. 10:28:01 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:28:45 thats what i thought 10:29:08 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:15 #highlight 10:29:32 7 10:29:38 batshit 10:29:44 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:29:47 Sorry never mind 10:30:34 here it doesnt work: http://paste.lisp.org/+20UG 10:30:49 I wonder, how does one type cast in CL? 10:30:55 i'd expect for the whole progn form to first be read 10:31:11 spacebat: what do you mean? 10:31:24 see COERCE? 10:31:32 sounds like the thing 10:31:32 jdz: yes. only the reader macro before it 10:31:48 if i remove the progn it works 10:32:10 I'd like the output of (type-of (X (* 2 pi))) to be SINGLE-FLOAT 10:32:20 where X is I guess, coerce 10:32:35 (float float 1.0) 10:32:59 float is a function? 10:33:10 what else? 10:33:17 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 10:33:18 a special form 10:33:27 for what reason? 10:34:56 sweet, (coerce pi 'single-float) is what I was after 10:35:46 with the progn i get a bunch of errors in the definition of augment-environment, which indecate that the package is not properly set to sb-cltl2 10:36:09 the progn is only there for conditionally reading the whole file 10:37:56 demmeln: you understand that the whole progn form is first read, and only then processed, right? 10:38:31 demmeln: and when it is read, it is read in current package, and the IN-PACKAGE form inside is not evaluated 10:38:50 so I guess #+(...foo...) 10:39:11 followed by (in-package :sb-cltl2) 10:39:20 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:39:20 jdz: Ah yeah thats it. Me stupid. Thanks 10:39:23 to make it a top-level form 10:39:33 spacebat: it is a top level form 10:39:35 allready 10:39:49 but still not processd before reading the rest 10:40:08 I thought being a part of the progn meant that it wasn't 10:40:16 yeah 10:40:22 ok 10:41:15 spacebat: all forms in a top level progn form are toplevel 10:44:30 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:47:08 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:18 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082F887.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:44 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:47:58 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:44 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082F76A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:49:11 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 10:52:05 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 10:53:06 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-165-52.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:55:35 -!- arthurschopenhau [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has left #lisp 10:56:44 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:57:12 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:02:21 -!- rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:29 -!- NorthStar is now known as TR2N 11:04:27 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:36 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:07:30 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:07:54 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:10:37 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:49 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:14:01 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:34 maxalwings_LISP [~user@196.12.149.2] has joined #lisp 11:17:03 -!- alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-0408.bb.online.no] has left #lisp 11:17:14 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 11:18:25 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 11:18:56 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:19:31 -!- maxalwings_LISP [~user@196.12.149.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:20:58 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:22:45 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-94-56.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:24:30 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-9-237.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:47 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Quit: be back later] 11:25:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:27:04 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-94-56.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 11:29:48 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:29:57 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:31:29 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:44 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:57 You're a toplevel 11:33:15 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-156-179.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:34:25 noi-38 [~user@95.214.27.139] has joined #lisp 11:34:52 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:37:39 -!- noi-38 [~user@95.214.27.139] has quit [Client Quit] 11:39:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 11:42:00 athlon` [~user@208-79-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:56 Hi! What is the best library for graphics. I need to make win gui on clisp or sbcl 11:44:08 athlon`: capi 11:44:13 athlon`: that is for lispworks, though. 11:46:28 athlon`: some sort of GTK thing, possibly? 11:46:53 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:46:55 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 11:47:45 pbusser [~pbusser@82.174.238.138] has joined #lisp 11:48:25 athlon`: gui as in FPS? Or gui as in Notepad? 11:49:07 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:44 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:10 -!- lukjadOO7 is now known as lukjad007 11:52:23 hello. maybe i overlooked it, but does someone know if usocket-lib works under win-sbcl, too? 11:54:35 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:59:46 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:01:19 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 12:02:56 unicode [~user@95.214.27.139] has joined #lisp 12:03:31 i need simple gui like tcl/tk or something else. Just to meke simple window interface 12:03:51 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 12:04:17 athlon`: ltk might work, then. 12:05:36 athlon`: like Xach said ltk or check out gtk-server: http://www.gtk-server.org/examples.html 12:05:48 Will it work on windows with clisp? (ltk) 12:06:22 athlon`: I have no idea. I haven't seen many people making or using free lisps for free GUIs on windows. 12:06:50 athlon`: the people i know of who work on windows GUI programs sell them, and invest in commercial development environments. 12:06:59 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:14 Xach: there's an app written in CCL using cocotron on Windows, apparently 12:07:18 though I think it may be commercial 12:07:26 So i need to sell program to myself? 12:07:33 bah, Clozure with Cocoa/Cocotron and SBCL with Qt are the only real contenders in the race for a good win32-capable Lisp GUI. 12:07:44 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:58 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:05 lichtblau: what about GTK++? 12:08:31 I've never actually attempted to use GTK++ on Windows, but there seem to be a number of Windows applications which get by on it (notably Pidgin) 12:08:44 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:08:47 The #1 reason free Lisp GUI libraries aren't as excellent as they could be is simply that there isn't an application that would need them. 12:08:54 rsynnott: cl-gtk2 works well enough on windows: http://www.aerique.net/software/okra-gtk-demo/ 12:09:20 I'm thinking the Cocoa IDE (for Clozure) and Hemlock (for Qt) would be strong use cases driving such library development in the future. 12:09:28 CCL's cocoa bridge is brilliant, but only really particularly usable on MacOS for now 12:09:41 objc bridge, rather 12:10:27 Yeah, after attending a talk on that at the ECLS 2009 I was really hoping it would be an option for a CL cross-platform GUI. 12:13:02 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-22-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:27 CLIM is cross-platform. 12:13:28 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for is cross-platform.. 12:13:42 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: london] 12:14:00 heh 12:17:21 pbusser: the last time i tried running mcclim on windows, which is 2 years or so ago to be honest, i had to install an x-server and the performance was underwhelming to say the least 12:18:11 -!- splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-vcwlugyogatvvare] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:19:28 FUCKKK!!!!!!!!!! Why the instalation of cl-gtk is so fucking hard and shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 12:19:52 Fucking dependencies, fucking linux style!!!!!!! 12:20:12 :) 12:20:28 athlon`: and worth every penny. 12:20:34 how many deps are there... GTK2, GCC+binutils, Lisp and CFFI? 12:21:04 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:23 hmmm... closer-mop, cffi, bordeaux-threads and trivial-garbage for lisp-side 12:22:08 p_l: GCC+binutils is optional, I've never needed it to run cl-gtk on windows 12:22:23 sorry: cl-gtk2 12:22:34 newsflash: cl-gtk2 has dependency on GTK+, experts stunned by the remarkable discovery 12:23:01 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:09 athlon`: are you talking about cl-gtk or cl-gtk2? 12:23:25 aerique: it's needed for building from scratch :D 12:23:41 I assumed that for linux, X11 libs would be available 12:23:57 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:45 silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has joined #lisp 12:25:01 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.105.148.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:26:12 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.105.238.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 12:28:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:28:50 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:29:32 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 12:29:34 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:32:35 jollygood [~jollygood@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:37:04 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:02 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:40:01 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:40:08 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:27 aerique: AFAIK there is GTK+ support in McCLIM. And GTK+ runs native on Windows AFAIK. 12:40:57 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:41:33 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 12:41:58 McCLIM needs improvement. 12:42:38 pbusser: i'll check it out when i'm playing with GUIs again 12:43:58 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:30 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 12:44:35 fuck again 12:44:38 pbusser: too much AFAIK, too little practical value in those statements 12:44:51 asdf want's work on win 12:45:44 i agree with lichtblau, there is no point in toolkit if there is no primary application 12:45:51 gtk was written for gimp 12:46:40 fiveop [~fiveop@g229132167.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:46:41 asdf says that "there is no package with name "LINUX"" Fuckin linux again!!! 12:46:50 lichtblau: Feel free to fill in the blanks. 12:47:13 Q: how can I request a list of files (and directory) in a certain pathname? 12:47:19 clhs directory 12:47:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm 12:47:39 stassats`: thanks! 12:48:54 -!- Kazinator [~fedora@d154-20-32-179.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:50:47 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754a09.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:23 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:09 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:53:39 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:53:56 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.27.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:54:04 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:14 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:55:50 unicode [~user@95.214.1.118] has joined #lisp 12:56:36 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.1.118] has quit [Client Quit] 12:56:44 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:56:51 unicode [~user@95.214.1.118] has joined #lisp 12:57:26 unicode-afk [~user@95.214.1.118] has joined #lisp 12:57:30 splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-njowfgkffzymegru] has joined #lisp 12:57:43 -!- unicode-afk [~user@95.214.1.118] has quit [Client Quit] 12:58:13 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:38 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.1.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:02:56 -!- konr [~user@201.82.136.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:20 konr [~user@201.82.136.64] has joined #lisp 13:03:27 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:31 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:06:30 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:39 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:16:01 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:16:18 hello 13:16:33 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:17:08 -!- merl15 [~merl@80-121-52-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:17:20 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:29 Oh crap 13:22:40 fe[nl]ix and fatalnix in the same channel at the same time 13:22:49 guys you warned me this would happen. 13:23:04 fatalnix: What are you talking about? 13:23:22 do i need cygwin to make asdf-install work? 13:23:27 on win 13:23:30 nvm that was a playback from yesterday :P 13:23:56 How are things Xach? 13:23:56 Xach: that was trying to be a joke, methinks 13:24:03 my favorite is Fade and Fare 13:24:04 and that's not all, your both nicks are the same color here 13:24:46 fatalnix: I hope you're not a stand-up comedian 13:24:59 nope. 13:25:29 When I first came in here, people asked me if I was you. 13:26:06 Xach: how's the whimsy business at the moment? 13:27:40 splittist: excellent 13:28:37 and it's also excellent to have two children to offset the tax liability of strong whimsy markets 13:28:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:39 I have been looking and looking for ways to get lisp on my ipod touch... I hate the fact that it can't be jailbroken yet. 13:30:41 *Xach* is fiddling with an application builder script at the moment, and has been having "fun" getting metadata from asdf to make loading less verbose 13:30:43 Sure. You don't want to be labelled as one of those fatcat ME whimsy tycoons, always jetting off to Vegas to your whimsy conventions etc. 13:31:14 well, true, but i wouldn't miss WhimsyFest 2010 (colocated with the march Boston Lisp Meeting) 13:31:53 theres another meeting in march at boston? that almost sounds doable :D 13:32:29 What could go wrong in Mass? 13:32:31 fatalnix: There's usually a meeting near the end of every month, announced a few days in advance. it's not guaranteed, though. 13:33:27 merl15 [~merl@80-121-12-177.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:33:58 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:34:06 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 13:34:15 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:35 ah. Yeah, I wonder if its nearby when the FIRST robotics competition regional runs in Worchester. I'm a mentor for the local team here. We use Intl. Instruments cRio's, which some teams have actually done the autonomous sessions of their robots with lisp. 13:35:14 about lisp on the cRio, that's what I heard from another uMaine mentor 13:35:30 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.105.238.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:36:53 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:39:42 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:39:59 I mentioned if we wanted to give the students a challenge we could have it all done in lisp for kicks this year instead of C, Java or Labview but nobody thought it was a good idea :( lol. 13:40:09 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:24 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:42:37 -!- athlon` [~user@208-79-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:43 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:28 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:51:21 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:52:04 So minion is a her? 13:52:12 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:22 Yuuhi [benni@p5483E08C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:52 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 13:57:27 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-165-52.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:57:28 i just discovered an even gentler introduction to common lisp than touretzky's book: "common lisp an interacitve approach" by shapiro 13:57:41 it's the perfect novice's manual. 13:59:18 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-163-57.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:03:03 plage [~user@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 14:03:07 Good afternoon 14:04:16 tcr: coming into the conversation late: I was really arguing for r-i on structures; I think i-i/s-i is a much different kettle of fish. 14:06:17 froydnj: I commonly have the following problem with structures: 14:06:26 Axius [~hi@92.84.27.201] has joined #lisp 14:06:50 froydnj: I define a structure which among other things consists of a mutex/ or condition-variable, and a name 14:08:11 froydnj: I'd like to initialize the mutex/cvar with a variant of the name slot (i.e. I'd like to initialize the mutex slot with (make-mutex :name (format nil "~A's lock" name-slot)) 14:08:36 moesenle [~moesenle@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:08:59 rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-208-5-37.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:14 I could either create a %make-foo constructor, and roll my own constructor on top of that, or use a BOA constructor w/ &aux 14:09:44 the former results in boilerplate, the latter results in mess 14:09:55 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:10:13 I was wondering if a structure's constructor would automatically involve initialize-instance if I could do what I wanted 14:10:57 (scratch the second "if") 14:12:52 that's interesting. i installed UCW, loaded up demo, clicked on "test call/answer" magic and boom, an internal server error has occured. 14:13:19 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 14:14:18 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:15:38 tcr: boa and &aux to result in uninitialised slots, and call initialize-instance to do everything? 14:15:50 Oh right. You don't have access to the struct. 14:16:12 TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:18:08 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:19:20 aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has joined #lisp 14:19:47 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:19:51 it's also that I always use :type for slots, and (missing-arg) for the initform -- so it's non obvious how the internal constructor should involve initialize-instance, and not result in a missing-arg error 14:20:22 -!- aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:29 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.27.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:07 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 14:21:28 wgl: heh, I was thinking the same thing 14:21:54 tcr: &aux. 14:22:38 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:05 well then I could just add the right initforms right to the &aux bindings (my problem with that is that it's often difficult to stay <80 columns) 14:23:43 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:23:43 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:23:43 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:24:06 I think I'd be content with sb-ext:type-check-clos-slots :-) 14:25:00 TJohn [as@114-25-205-211.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:34 macro! 14:27:45 -!- TJohn [as@114-25-205-211.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:31:52 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-251-125.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:39 dlowe, hu.dwim.stefil merely needs alexandria (i'm reading logs) 14:35:42 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f6639d0-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 14:36:05 Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo7.181.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:58 attila_lendvai: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.stefil;a=headblob;f=/hu.dwim.stefil.asd seems to disagree 14:38:06 -!- lithper2 [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:33 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 14:44:37 Kazinator [~fedora@d154-20-32-179.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:57 ahh, the asdf stuff 14:45:01 i overlooked it 14:45:44 ruepel0r [~rue@f050229062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:52 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:47 ...so, it has two dependencies 14:49:03 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:51:01 -!- Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:51:41 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-252.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:03 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:52:23 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:54:46 Joreji [~thomas@78-047.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:55:18 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:31 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@82.174.238.138] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 14:55:32 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:57:02 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:13 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:25 tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:19 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:06:29 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:11:17 when I use cl-plplot to plot, ccl crashes with '? Trace/BPT trap' but nothing more about the cause. any idea how to debug a problem like this? 15:12:39 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:12:45 For starters, don't use FFI-based tools. 15:12:56 leo2007: report/ask in #ccl. depressing it is crashing for you tho, it has been working brilliantly for me. :/ 15:14:16 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483E08C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:30 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483E08C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:15:01 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 15:15:21 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:16:00 milanj [~milan@79.101.180.53] has joined #lisp 15:19:25 hypno: are you using ccl64? 15:21:22 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483E08C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:28 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.106.247.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:21:41 leo2007: nope. ccl 1.3/ia32/os x. 15:22:09 I used to have that too. 15:22:39 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.4.68] has joined #lisp 15:24:35 DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 15:26:10 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 15:26:41 Q: I want a list of subdirectories inside a directory and remove all .svn dirs (or any other .* labeled dirs). 15:26:50 I did some code, will do a paste 15:27:35 I'd use find. 15:28:05 j0be pasted "find directories and filter .svn" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94415 15:30:21 j0be, find somedir -name .svn -prune -o -print 15:33:23 or, rather find somedir -maxdepth 1 -name .svn -prune -o -type d -print 15:34:04 alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-0408.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:36:12 j0be: (remove ".svn" (iolib.os:list-directory ) :test #'string= :key #'iolib.pathnames:file-path-namestring) 15:36:15 rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:28 hey fe[nl]ix 15:36:34 hi plage 15:36:47 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 15:36:52 fe[nl]ix: That month-old axoa in the fridge had turned into a science experiment. 15:37:07 :D 15:38:18 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:39:15 u43444 [~jcouteye@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 15:41:10 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 15:43:05 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 15:43:52 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has left #lisp 15:44:24 hello u43444 15:47:04 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 15:49:37 hello 15:50:08 OK, time to go home. See you later. 15:50:12 -!- plage [~user@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has left #lisp 15:50:39 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:51:20 edhembi [~user@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 15:51:24 hello 15:51:43 -!- u43444 [~jcouteye@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1] 15:52:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-047.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:52:54 -!- edhembi [~user@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:53:52 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-22-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:18 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:12 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:04 See http://paste.nixeagle.org/it 15:57:15 arg! sorry :( 15:57:47 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:20 *nixeagle* wanders off to go add confirmation before his emacs library puts a link in the last channel point was in. 16:04:05 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:07:48 I don't have iolib.os in my allegroCL right? 16:08:12 unless you installed it 16:08:22 stassats`: it doesn't work on Allegro 16:09:05 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:09:58 hmmm can't i do something with match-re ? 16:13:25 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-7550.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:37 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 16:14:50 fe[nl]ix: why? 16:15:05 is the developer of cl-plplot on this channel? 16:15:06 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:25 tcr: last time somebody(rpg) looked, its FFI didn't support long long on x86 and the devs aren't interested in adding it 16:17:12 hmm where do you need that? 16:17:26 Joreji [~thomas@73-158.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:17:36 (not I have particular interest in iolib supporting acl, just curious) 16:17:39 Okay - not trying to start anything here; but - am making the transition from Lispworks IDE (quasi-emacs emulation) into full Emacs - any particular basis, from a lisp coding standpoint, to pick one or the other from Emacs or XEmacs? From a lisp plugin standpoint, can either do the job? 16:18:01 By that last line, I mean are the good known lisp plugins supported on both? 16:18:10 Modius: xemacs is pretty dead 16:18:21 at least as dead as CL :-) 16:18:35 j0be: (remove ".svn" (directory "/*.*") :test #'string= :key (lambda (f) (car (last (pathname-directory f))))) 16:18:48 Modius: for slime it's better to use GNU Emacs 16:19:02 Modius: the lispworks ide is an emacs. 16:19:07 fe[nl]ix: checking... 16:19:09 Modius: not really quasi or emulated. 16:19:12 -!- tankrim [~qsvans@c-a3f9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 16:19:17 j0be: that works on SBCL 16:20:15 fe[nl]ix: (remove ".svn" (directory *data-pathname* :directories-are-files nil) :test #'string= :key (lambda(f) (car (last (pathname-directory f))))) -- works 16:20:42 i needed to add :directories-are-files nil to suppres AllegroCL specific behaviour 16:21:24 drewc, also, i find it strange that you complain about de-hcl-ing the ucw codebase, when i made a tag specifically for you before the controversial changes... 16:21:30 Thanks, all. I'm getting a "use Emacs" vibe. 16:21:34 gulash [~kaste@81.198.243.236] has joined #lisp 16:21:54 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:01 Is there something for lisp, that I could handle X with? Something like Xlib bindings, maybe? 16:22:07 CLX 16:22:16 minion: tell gulash about clx 16:22:17 gulash: please see clx: CLX is to Common Lisp as Xlib is to C - it provides low-level X calls on top of which a Graphics Toolkit can be based. http://www.cliki.net/clx 16:22:18 gulash: CLX is a lisp implementation of the X protocol. 16:22:38 Awesome, thanks. 16:22:40 j0be annotated #94415 "working" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94415#1 16:23:04 cools` [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:28 j0be: space after lambda, plz 16:24:10 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:24:25 -!- cools [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:24:30 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.106.247.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:24:38 sounds like a name for something "Space After Lambda" 16:24:40 fe[nl]ix: why is that important, just curious? 16:25:29 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:26:05 Postal-Fun [~trooper@91.215.79.123] has joined #lisp 16:26:16 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.107.230.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 16:26:32 j0be: spaces are important. don't write claustrophobic code 16:26:37 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:26:44 j0be: convention. Makes it easier for others to read your code. 16:26:50 check okay 16:27:08 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:27:41 fe[nl]ix pkhuong ivan4th: thanks for the help 16:27:54 -!- Postal-Fun [~trooper@91.215.79.123] has left #lisp 16:28:43 Postal-Fun [~trooper@91.215.79.123] has joined #lisp 16:28:45 drewc, i also don't understand ''HCL has taken food off my table' when it all is in a darcs repo with a full revision history... 16:29:07 It might have dissolved it. 16:30:34 Zhivago: hcl as in hydrochloric acid? 16:31:25 minion: what does HCL stand for? 16:31:25 Hootingly Common Lisp 16:32:07 ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:32:19 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.79.101] has joined #lisp 16:32:29 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:32:53 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 16:32:56 She is getting pretty sophisticated what with the bacronyms. 16:33:11 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:36:18 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:37:10 Greetings lispers. 16:37:49 -!- Postal-Fun [~trooper@91.215.79.123] has left #lisp 16:39:19 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 16:41:47 wgl, stassats`: Hungarian Common Lisp :) 16:42:17 i know 16:42:32 oh. <- no humor :( 16:42:39 but minion doesn't know 16:42:40 Ah. apparently it will dissolve stuff, if i understand Zhivago. 16:45:17 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 16:48:02 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:48:48 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 16:48:52 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 16:48:55 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 16:48:55 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 16:49:46 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-vxpotwnozxwjdcwf] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:51:28 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:53:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:55:38 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:10 felideon: hu.dwim gives "hungarian notation" a whole new meaning! 16:57:07 Is there some function, that would merge two lists together excluding duplicates? 16:58:37 clhs union 16:58:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_unionc.htm 16:58:46 carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.124] has joined #lisp 17:00:38 but lists shouldn't contain duplicates 17:01:20 Hmmm...cucumber is pretty cool - so tempted to implement something like that for CL, heh. 17:01:39 and very googlable 17:01:45 what is cucumber? 17:02:09 It's a BDD (Behavioral Driven Development) system, where you write user stories that basically are your tests. 17:02:11 that's what i don't have in my salad 17:02:47 stassats`: what? how can you have a salad without cucumber on it? jeeze 17:03:43 I dunno about salads, but I consider chicken, mayonaisse, sweetcorn, rice, prawns and green peas to be enough for a salad ;-) 17:03:51 i usually have them in summer 17:04:32 "Describe behavior in plain text".. isn't that what most test frameworks want? 17:04:52 adeht: One would hope so 17:05:14 I just see it as a really verbose way to write test cases 17:05:38 adeht: in plain, readable text. sometimes, non-IT folks appreciate it 17:05:51 The general idea though is something like: Scenarior: Test index page
Given I am logged in
When I go to "/"
Then I should see "foo bar" 17:05:58 will the be a Pulitzer prize for a test case? 17:06:03 it's a cool idea, with a deeply ugly truth. but cool enough 17:06:07 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:06:14 koollman: exactly, he got it right on the head. It's used for documentation and to push to the end user to write docs for a given program. 17:06:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-158.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:06:51 (and, in an ideal world, they can not only read and understand the test/spec, but also modify them slightly) 17:07:02 end user, write docs? 17:07:16 not end user. customers/buyers/managers/whatever 17:07:29 or cheap code monkey, too 17:07:31 All the tasks we have now are in this type of format, so the end user does write the test...developers help with acceptance criteria as needed. 17:07:44 whoever shouldn't write tests :) 17:08:29 heh, I think the idea is to replace QA teams while having project documentation. Cukes seem to get messy kinda quick though in terms of finding certain ones. 17:10:11 I find it scary to read this kind of documentation, or that such people be expected to write tests, even more in a formal language 17:10:59 Why is it scary? 17:11:35 adeht: not expected to write. expected to have some higher level understanding. And the opposite-side argument works better : they might trust you a bit more if they can understand your tests 17:12:54 TDT: it's scary to read because it's just verbose code dressed up as documentation.. so tells too little (or too much) in too many words 17:13:08 I think this really comes down to what one's testing for. From full stack tracing you're effectively testing what the user sees, and that actions produce the desired behavior. I see them a bit separate from that of unit tests where you're testing logic of a function. 17:13:30 adeht: it's test code, dressed up as semi-formal specification. not scary for me 17:13:39 adeht: Yeah, you're right, it does. It says what the system is supposed to do but not how it does it - the step definitions usually defne those. 17:14:07 I will be glad when this TDD mania settles down into something sensible. 17:14:08 But even there, it's not really testing everything...hence unit tests are still helpful. 17:14:37 (of course, it might end up as every other 'natural language' programming languages... deeply unnatural and reserved once again to specialists) 17:17:08 What I've never understood about TDD or BDD are all the edge cases that don't come up until you're banging at the app, ie. exploratory testing I guess 17:17:19 shouldn't clbuild clean remove .dx32fsl files as well? 17:17:36 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 17:17:44 What annoys me is all of the maniacs wasting enormous amounts of time doing busy work that doesn't help anyone. 17:17:45 it seems to me that CCL uses the .dx32fsl extension and not .fasl 17:18:01 Particularly when they write tests for glue logic. 17:18:29 Zhivago: not just that.. TDD is presented in such a way that it encourages ad hoc tests, not actual systematic test case design 17:18:36 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:46 ccl uses "first platform letter"x"word-size"fsl 17:18:51 -!- silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has quit [Quit: silenius] 17:19:01 it reminds me of maniacs wasting enormous amounts of time building inheritance trees that don't actually help anyone. 17:19:13 Joreji [~thomas@73-158.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:19:19 Of course, we've all decided that inheristance is generally a bad idea, now. :) 17:19:39 stassats`: so should clbuild clean clean those? 17:19:54 I did something in emacs, and slime became SWANK-IO-PACKAGE> from CL-USER> .. How do I undo? 17:20:02 Zhivago: why's inheritance bad? (again, asking to know, not to argue) 17:20:02 stassats`: Is that true? I thought x32 meant 32-bit x86. 32-bit ppc would not also be dx32fsl, would it? 17:20:16 gulash: (in-package :cl-user) 17:20:20 BDD sounds like a fine way to go if you have proper HCI work done as well 17:20:26 race: Inheritance implies an is-a relationship rather than a has-a relationship, and those are generally pretty rare. 17:20:55 race: Which means that your inheritance trees should generally be pretty flat and your objects generally composed of multiple pieces. 17:21:01 RaceCondition: The function IN-PACKAGE is undefined. 17:21:11 gulash: cl:in-package :cl-user 17:21:27 sellout: make that "platform description" 17:21:31 Zhivago: does that apply to base classes provided by frameworks as well? 17:21:39 race: Sure. 17:21:45 and first "first OS letter" 17:21:55 RaceCondition: Should I write that in the prompt? 17:22:01 Zhivago: that totally damns mixins, doesn't it 17:22:12 cools`` [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:13 gulash: yes, or just type , and then change-package and then cl-user (that's a SLIME feature) 17:22:47 RaceCondition: The variable COMMON-LISP:IN-PACKAGE is unbound. <-- Did I do anything wrong? 17:22:53 adeht: Well, there you get to the difference between 'derivation of type' and 'reuse of implementation'. 17:23:36 -!- cools` [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:23:43 adeht: Certainly CLOS doesn't separate these conceptually, but you can use packages to imply it. 17:23:45 Zhivago: so using inheritance for something like "interfaces", with usually one or two levels of inheritance, and composing classes of other classes as slots, you mean? 17:23:46 Inheritance isn't bad, but it's abused in languages like J___; in order to be able to substitute two different objects somewhere, they have to inherit from the same type, so you can use a reference to that type. 17:23:49 gulash: it should be unbound 17:23:51 gulash, are you sure you're in the right buffer? 17:24:09 p_l: Pretty much. 17:24:14 Kazinator: or you can go wild like my friend who reintroduced (void *) in .NET :P 17:24:23 dcrawford: Should "*slime-repl sbcl*" be the right buffer? 17:24:28 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-233-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:35 gulash: yes 17:24:37 Kazinator: (in the project, I mean) 17:24:56 gulash: maybe M+x restart-inferior-lisp? 17:25:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-158.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:25:57 So if you are forced to introduce common supertypes just to be able to do polymorphism, that's a form of inheritance which doesn't have anything to do with real OO any longer. 17:26:22 adeht: Mixins suffer because with CLOS's dispatch mechanism you can't just mix in behaviours without adding to the superclasses. 17:26:30 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:26:37 Joreji [~thomas@64-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:26:40 RaceCondition: I'll just restart the whole thing. :/ 17:26:48 Real inheritance is for influencing dispatch. I.e. this object is a more specific variant of its type, and so we want such and such a method to use this implementation instead. 17:26:56 gulash: try M-x restart-inferior-lisp before 17:27:14 RaceCondition: there is no such function in slime 17:27:15 Zhivago: luckily you can change-class ;) 17:27:22 RaceCondition: I did, he didn't let me to. 17:27:35 gulash: sorry, M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp 17:27:38 RaceCondition: perhaps you meant ",", not M-x 17:27:49 *p_l* recalls his idea of mapping CLOS classes to .NET, for easy generation of CL-like bindings to .NET libs. Interfaces galore, as well RTTI 17:27:50 I don't see how that helps. :) 17:27:51 stassats`: that, too :) 17:28:09 -!- lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-203-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:28:53 Zhivago: maybe I looked at the problem of "mixin suffering" differently.. what did you mean by that? 17:29:24 adheht: Well, say that you just wanted to reuse some implementation stuff you had lying about without implying an is-a relationship. 17:29:35 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:29:35 i think mixins are just an indication cl is closer to has-a instead of is-a 17:30:11 dcraw: Sure, except that it still extends subtypep, and so on. 17:30:16 Zhivago: are you recommending delegation instead of inheritance? 17:30:33 Race: Generally, yes -- unless it is clearly an is-a relationship. 17:31:02 Zhivago: OK, that cleared it up 17:31:58 Zhivago: I was thinking you were talking about stuff like changing behavior at runtime.. e.g., to add some filtering to a stream.. you can use a mixin and change-class or you can have a delegating stream 17:32:02 fractalis [~fractalis@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:15 Well, is-a is about immutable relationships. 17:32:42 except cl is a dynamic system 17:32:43 If you have an animal and you say that is-a living-creature, then you're probably in trouble. 17:32:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:32:47 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:33:01 Zhivago: because it might change to dead-creature? 17:33:02 change-class has considerable limitations on its safe use. 17:33:12 davazp [~user@68.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:22 prxq [~mommer@f050207179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:22 p_l: Because being a living creature isn't fundamental to it -- it's an accidental property. 17:33:26 Zhivago: heh.. I think that's just one approach to the issue, and I think CL doesn't constrain you to this approach, and that the metaphor will break anyhow 17:33:33 Zhivago: what about prototype inheritance or maybe even copy-inheritance? :P 17:33:44 Race: Same deal. 17:34:01 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:34:23 so Animal can't imitate LiveCreature and then suddenly modify it's behaviour? 17:34:28 If you say an animal is-a potentially-alive-thing, then the problem disappears. 17:34:46 but in real life, a human being IS A live creature which doesn't stop it from becoming a dead one 17:35:04 In real life human beings are alive or dead. 17:35:05 hi 17:35:10 unless they are in a box 17:35:13 People can become dead for a while and then become alive again. 17:35:15 so maybe we just have to use two copula IS-ALWAYS and IS-NOW or smth 17:35:20 Zhivago: e.g., I had a case where I wanted to have a stream-case property for output streams.. I ended up having a delegating (forwarding) stream and a case-translating (converting)-stream 17:35:29 you're not accomodating for zombie cases 17:35:31 cl:change-class! 17:35:46 I wonder if there are OO systems based around properties, not classes 17:36:02 p_l: inform7 might qualify. 17:36:02 thres also cthulu, whos sleeping beyond death 17:36:02 Zhivago: but this can suffer in performance.. I could for any given stream class, "intern" a stream-class+case-conversion-mixin class 17:36:18 Zhivago: I was lately thinking of how to implement a database based on such concept 17:36:25 In the end you have to make pragmatic decisions. 17:37:27 Zhivago: I think you could say that is-a shouldn't necessarily mean inheritance, wouldn't that be better? 17:37:36 I found that I can quite nicely do that if I can "freeze" the schema for runtime (i.e. not require changing the set of existing properties by someone other than "superuser" 17:37:44 (with a RDBMS) 17:38:08 are you guys talking about semantic network stuff? 17:38:14 race: Maybe "inheritance shouldn't necessarily mean is-a", and I'd certainly agree. 17:38:23 prxq: not really semantic network 17:38:35 #freenode, the pedantic network. 17:38:39 Zhivago: yeah 17:38:46 I just found that ability to search on properties instead of constraining to types would be a great help for me 17:39:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:39:14 -!- ruepel0r [~rue@f050229062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:39:30 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:39:31 p_l: ok! what is the application (if I may ask) 17:39:46 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:39:54 Zhivago: so even if a person inherits from Person at the moment of birth, 200 years later the person might not be a person because it's dust and mud 17:39:56 so I could have a postgres table like properties.position which would contain 3D points, another like properties.image etc. 17:40:15 prxq: I stumbled on it while thinking about a certain failed job :/ 17:40:29 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:41:05 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:06 RaceCondition: that's because OO takes the classical essentialistic approach to things 17:41:10 p_l: you want to store images? 17:41:20 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:41:38 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 17:41:51 prxq: no, that would be metadata 17:42:03 ok. 17:42:12 the images would be stored on filesystem (I dislike storing BLOBs) 17:42:31 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:43:16 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:43:24 I suspect one of the few things I hate to store more in RDBMS is XML that is then actually searched in queries 17:43:30 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:31 RaceCondition: it's Object-Oriented, but the modern view of the real world is as a totality of facts, not things.. events and processes 17:44:10 p_l: ...and you want to store information on the images, like how many people can be seen on it... 17:44:59 prxq: or in this case, that an "object" has "images" related as properties, which might be a floorplan, a photo of property, a custom map, etc. 17:45:06 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-7550.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45:09 Why can't/how can I (+ a list? 17:45:20 adeht: I'd simply say that objects' behavior changes in real life but not with mainstream OO inheritance 17:45:29 gulash: do what? 17:45:38 add up numbers in a list? 17:45:40 gulash: sum elements of a list? 17:45:43 prxq: then I can in realtime change what properties an object has 17:45:46 gulash: reduce 17:45:46 RaceCondition: Yup. 17:45:53 (reduce #'+ list) 17:46:05 gulash: (reduce #'+ '(1 2 3 4)) 17:46:10 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 17:46:14 oops, stassats` was faster 17:46:30 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-153-48.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:01 gulash: actually (apply #'+ list) works too 17:47:11 -!- yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:12 this is wrong 17:47:16 I know :P 17:47:25 clhs call-arguments-limit 17:47:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm 17:48:18 -!- NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-57-82-249-5-59.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:48:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:49:11 1152921504606846975 for SBCL but only 8192 for CCL :( 17:49:36 1152921504606846975 is not real 17:49:43 it is integer. 17:49:55 RaceCondition: the problem is more than behavior.. you don't say that the "dust and mud" is the person just behaving differently 17:50:28 RaceCondition: it's about identity, and OO also take stand w/ regards to the problem of universals, among many others 17:50:45 p_l: no idea if it is appropriate, but there's a nice article called "critique of pure reason" by drew mcdermott that goes into some detail about the pitfalls of such approaches 17:50:49 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:15 RaceCondition: 640 should be enough for everybody. 17:51:18 gzip4 pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94430 17:51:28 prxq: 640 EiB, sure 17:52:06 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:52:26 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:52:46 hi, can somebody say about this code? 17:53:29 there is already an implicit block with the name of a function 17:53:42 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:42 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:54 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 17:53:57 and loop has an implicit block named NIL 17:54:06 A huge CALL-ARGUMENTS-LIMIT might sound good, but I think there's a case for keeping it small enough to have a chance of fitting the arguments on the stack without overflowing. 17:54:10 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:54:26 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:54:40 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:55:25 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:47 i just stuck on that threaded code, and have no idea how to keep it simple and clean ((( 17:56:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:56:54 -!- lichtblau [~user@77-22-100-44-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:57:45 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-4154.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:52 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:35 finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has joined #lisp 17:58:39 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-162.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:01:11 how should i organize the async reading and writing from/to an xmpp connection and handle errors properly& 18:01:13 ? 18:02:15 does it need to be threaded? 18:02:19 -!- dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:02:24 iolib had some code for async networking, iirc 18:03:21 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-162.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:03:26 gzip4: do you know cl-xmpp? 18:03:43 yes it does. xmpp messages are put into queues and handled in other threads 18:03:56 rlb3 [~AndChat@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:07 I wrote a simple event/listener/speaker interface 18:04:21 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:04:30 tcr: i heard about it 18:05:14 -!- rlb3 [~AndChat@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:05:38 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-12-120.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:05:54 tcr: but how can it help to handle messages concurrently? 18:06:36 rlb3 [~AndChat@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:00 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:07:37 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 18:07:47 I haven't used it, juding from the bits on its website, it may have something built-in for that 18:10:19 all i want to do is to put incoming messages into one queue, and send messages obtained from another queue (queues are blocking) 18:10:23 pbusser [~pbusser@82.174.238.138] has joined #lisp 18:10:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-241.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:10:57 and you need threads for that? 18:11:12 and in the case of stream error i want just make new xmpp connection and use it in loop 18:12:05 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:12:17 tyler [~tyler@t3pipe.spfldcol.edu] has joined #lisp 18:12:28 in a single thread if i have blocked on send queue, how i would recv incoming messages? 18:12:33 -!- tyler is now known as Guest75027 18:13:11 don't block then 18:13:15 -!- Guest75027 [~tyler@t3pipe.spfldcol.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:13:25 iolib? 18:13:28 -!- gulash is now known as sieri_js 18:14:10 deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:14:22 xmpp uses ssl stream, i could not make it non-blocking (( 18:14:41 how it couldn't be non-blocking? 18:14:51 does iolib supports ssl? 18:15:29 p_l: i dont know 18:15:40 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-21-117.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:16:01 p_l: it foreign library 18:16:08 p_l: it is foreign library 18:16:16 gzip4: I think you would just have to have the non-blocking code feed buffers that would be then parsed by SSL code, then into XMPP code (basically, a buffer that would serve as pipe till you have the whole protocol frame) 18:16:23 -!- xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:17:42 so SSL library would get whole frame 18:18:10 most modern uses of SSL use a block cipher anyway, not a stream one :) 18:18:16 p_l: i use cl+ssl for SSL 18:19:48 -!- sieri_js is now known as yetti_ 18:20:56 how can i decide which time to read stream and which time to read output queue? and when and how to yield if nothing to do? 18:21:13 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 18:21:20 one way is not to use a stream at all 18:21:44 you can feed epoll the fd of CL+SSL streams 18:22:23 slyrus: I'm trying to use ch-image to generate heat-maps by making a small image and then scaling it up using quadratic (bicubic) interpolation to get a pretty transistion. I'm running into some weird results 18:22:39 bilinear interpolation looks alright: http://ryepup.unwashedmeme.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/heat-map-bilinear.png 18:22:49 quadratic looks weird: http://ryepup.unwashedmeme.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/heat-map-quadratic.png 18:22:59 any hints? 18:23:19 I hate usenet sometimes...gah, responded to Xah Lee's complaint about python, and get reamed by people in perl 18:23:43 thanx all (i do not really understand why not to use threads in my case) 18:23:44 -!- rlb3 [~AndChat@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:50 rlb3 [~AndChat@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:05 TDT: yes, it helps to crosspost only to relevant newsgroups (if any) 18:24:18 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.107.230.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:56 gzip4: iolib allows you to pass any FD you want to its multiplexer - you just need to read the source (and the manpages for epoll etc.) 18:25:05 Yeah, I regret even responding to it, while the content was applicable to the languages he's complaining about, and my response equally so...complaints arise when I don't write in the langauge of the newsgroup, which...yeah. 18:25:45 perl, python and lisp are very different syntax wise, so I pick something pseudo codeish, and people complain it's not runnable.. I probably should have stated that. 18:26:03 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 18:26:16 p_l: are there any issues when less than a full unit of SSL protocol data is available? 18:26:38 Xach: I don't know, so I played safe 18:26:43 TDT: You could write in lisp and provide a translator to generate the language of the newsgroup? 18:27:05 pjb: haha nice idea 18:27:21 Xach: I suspect decoding an incomplete block when used with block cipher might be "problematic" 18:27:22 Considering I'll likely never respond to the guy again, I likely won't have to worry about crossposting 18:29:01 unicode [~user@95.214.22.195] has joined #lisp 18:29:04 TDT: use the pseudocode syntax from "Introduction to Algorithms" by Cormen et al, and tell everyone to RTFM :) 18:29:21 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:30:12 -!- fractali` [~user@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:31 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:03 and you can turn any complaints about non-runnability into themselves insulting their own intelligence ;-) 18:32:16 heh 18:32:28 I'm actually surprised if they piped this into perl and expected it to run. 18:32:41 i am not 18:32:48 this is perl, after all 18:33:10 *p_l* recalls "Black Perl" and shudders 18:34:25 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-66-113.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:34:28 it's even worse than the very concept of perl poetry 18:36:12 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-21-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:37:54 wow I can't say I've heard of that before, looking at the wikipedia entry 18:38:33 scarred for life already? 18:39:06 That's hilarious, some screwed up stuff, but hilarious 18:39:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:39:37 as i heard, the only rule of perl is "the characters should not overlap" 18:39:57 Dodek: good one :-) 18:40:16 :) 18:40:49 Dodek: I'm not sure if you can't overlap characters in modern perl 18:40:57 at least visually 18:41:02 you can in SBCL :) 18:41:07 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:41:08 (for symbols) 18:41:09 -!- jollygood [~jollygood@129.71.215.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:41:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-241.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Gone] 18:42:01 p_l: oh, now i'm scared. 18:42:25 Dodek: I had named symbols with Kanji in CCL xD 18:42:35 overlapping characters won't be harder :) 18:42:44 well, i guess it should work 18:43:00 what does lisp in kanji look like? 18:43:17 i guess it isn't, but that seems wildly bizarre. :) 18:43:17 Fade: normally, unless you start playing with reader macros :D 18:43:30 oioioi 18:43:45 (like enabling chinese/japanese symbols for digits) 18:44:43 I thought japan and china used arabic numbers.. 18:45:14 then you could have something like (+  ) => 76 18:45:29 do all the built-in names get converted to kanji? 18:45:53 Fade: no, you would have to do such conversion yourself. I just experimented with using unicode in symbol names. 18:45:53 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:03 *Fade* nods 18:46:27 as we're already talking about it 18:46:33 but it's definitely possible, though pointless (I hate "translated" languages. Two are enough in my life.) 18:46:57 well, it'd be a guarantee that you wouldn't get too many patches for whatever system, I guess. 18:46:57 how would one implement in CL some kind of alias system for symbols? 18:47:08 something like elisp's 'defalias' 18:51:05 I can't believe I'm saying this, but it looks like there might be some support for that kind of thing in cl-def 18:51:11 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-def/index-old.shtml 18:51:16 I've never used the system. 18:51:31 Dodek: (setf (symbol-function 'alias) (fdefinition 'aliased-function)) ? 18:51:46 though this basically "clones" the function 18:52:08 dunno how it would work if you wanted "weak" aliases 18:52:20 will that work for macros as well? will the 'alias' definition be updated if i update aliased-function? 18:52:32 hmm...nope 18:52:35 -!- rlb3 [~AndChat@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:36 I think not 18:52:40 rlb3 [~AndChat@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:07 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:53:50 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:57:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 18:57:17 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:58:17 Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-10-255.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:47 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:00:02 malaikawings [~malaikawi@196.12.154.229] has joined #lisp 19:03:57 p_l pasted "macro implementation of defalias?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94432 19:04:53 *p_l* is not sure if what he just pasted isn't a trainwreck.... 19:05:16 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:42 p_l: why no defun? 19:06:26 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:06:56 demmeln: Because it's partly from older code that just "cloned" the function to be referenced by two symbols 19:07:08 Dodek: what use-case did you have in mind? 19:07:36 -!- lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-233-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:07:40 Xach: i thought about it with regard to multiple-value-bind before i found metabang-bind 19:08:25 but besides of that, i often think that some names are too long 19:09:25 demmeln annotated #94432 "my suggestion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94432#1 19:09:38 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Quit: blackened`] 19:09:43 p_l: still whats wrong with defun? 19:10:05 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 19:10:11 -!- merl15 [~merl@80-121-12-177.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:10:18 demmeln: as I said, it's a holdover from previous code. And no, I'm not planning to use this :D 19:10:25 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:31 p_l: fair enough :) 19:12:26 p_l: (didnt notice your preceeding conversation) 19:17:29 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 19:20:08 -!- malaikawings [~malaikawi@196.12.154.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:58 -!- sjbach [~sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:21:36 -!- rlb3 [~AndChat@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:21:41 rlb3 [~AndChat@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:04 -!- rlb3 [~AndChat@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has left #lisp 19:22:32 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 19:22:38 levente_meszaros pasted "reader+walker hand in hand" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94435 19:22:50 jollygood [~jollygood@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 19:23:41 let's if I can make this with embedded XML syntax too like (dolist (f foo) >) 19:24:31 chrisb [~chrisb@pool-71-175-244-236.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:23 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:25:35 for that the custom reader functions need to be wrapped in a way that they produce source-object forms instead of cons cells 19:27:17 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:28:52 -!- yetti_ is now known as gulash 19:30:42 -!- milanj [~milan@79.101.180.53] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:31:12 sjbach [~sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:57 maelcoluim [~maelcolui@client-80-5-172-214.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:17 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:33:53 milanj [~milan@109.93.200.127] has joined #lisp 19:34:18 -!- xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:35:03 gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:23 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:36:34 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:39:28 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:40:20 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:20 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:42:48 If I download some package, and it has a bunch of .lisp files. How do I use it? 19:43:57 gulash: Is one of them an .asd file? 19:46:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:46:02 Yup. 19:46:25 Xach: ^ 19:46:49 if the file is named foobar.asd, usually you would start lisp, load asdf, then use (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'foobar) 19:46:58 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-163-57.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: I wish the toaster to be happy, too.] 19:47:12 asdf is in charge of compiling and loading the files in the right order 19:47:22 and loading any other software the lisp program might need 19:47:23 tobetchi [~tobetchi@p296b0a.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:48:34 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:50:11 Yuuhi [benni@p5483E08C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:11 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:52 gulash: on *nix systems these asd files are usually managed by keeping soft links to them in a central directory that adsf is aware of by pushing the path to it onto asdf:*central-registry* 19:52:39 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 19:53:46 *Xach* used to do that, does it no longer 19:53:53 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:54:05 I tend to use clbuild these days. 19:54:31 levente_meszaros annotated #94435 "long live to intention" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94435#1 19:56:26 Good evening! 19:56:45 Greetings, beach 19:58:53 *Xach* plays around with http://paste.lisp.org/display/94440 19:59:19 what is buildapp? 19:59:55 Xach, we have something like that called hu.dwim.build 19:59:59 something a little like cl-launch. make a binary by loading a mix of systems and files and specifying an entry function and output exectable file. 20:00:08 Is there a way, in Emacs/Slime, to associate a buffer with a running lisp have Ctrl-alt-X (or something like it) deduce the current form and eval it in the associated lisp? 20:00:09 it's a command line lisp application to build other lisp applications using ASDF 20:00:32 -!- splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-njowfgkffzymegru] has quit [Quit: Whee!] 20:00:32 it has command line help, etc. 20:00:34 Xach: is this something you cooked up? 20:00:53 What exactly does asdf mean? 20:01:02 Fade: yeah, a couple hundred lines of sbcl-specific stuff. 20:01:14 neat. have you published it? 20:01:22 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-153-48.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:01:23 Not yet. Gotta knock off the rough edges. 20:01:30 *nod* 20:01:36 looks sweet 20:01:38 like landing in the debugger, ever. 20:01:43 levente_meszaros pasted "hu.dwim.build to buld lisp executables and images (written in CL)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94442 20:02:18 -!- raison [~raison@70.90.182.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:02:22 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:02:55 and it can build itself from a single call to build.sh in the project 20:03:45 levente_meszaros: you guys have a lot of neat stuff written in a very bizarre dialect of lisp. 20:04:19 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 20:04:41 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:04:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:04:49 levente_meszaros: looks very similar in spirit to what i'm fiddling with 20:05:07 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 20:05:25 Fade, oh no, not that again... ;-) 20:05:44 Fade: So I need to add that pkg's path to asdf:*central-registry*, right? 20:05:47 Xach, it serves us very well and took a matter of a few days to write 20:06:03 gulash: typically. 20:06:17 yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 20:06:48 levente_meszaros: so it writes out a loader script and then loads it with a spawned sbcl process? 20:06:53 builder script, rather? 20:07:31 Xach, it does not write it into a file, just calls another SBCL to build the output 20:07:44 prints the build program into a string, that's all 20:08:02 levente_meszaros: ah, ok. does it do sbcl --eval "long string"? 20:08:08 btw, our nightly test suite does the same, prints the test program into a string and calls SBCL with that 20:08:17 Xach, yes 20:09:13 Xach, the whole program is like 250 lines and pretty mature (compared to our needs) 20:10:48 rme: hello. My cl-plplot is causing ccl64 to exit with ? Trace/BPT trap. any idea how to debug a problem like this? 20:10:51 -!- Ralith_ [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:10:52 your needs are immature? :) 20:11:11 -!- mapour [~mapour@linux.utu.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:12:38 leo2007: does it just die? it doesn't end up in the lisp kernel debugger? 20:13:01 rme: it dies. no debugger at all. 20:13:37 I'm running ccl64 trunk r13431 20:14:55 LiamH [~nobody@pool-151-200-241-193.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:11 leo2007: have you tried running the lisp under gdb, as described in http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/CclUnderGdb ? That's what I'd do first. 20:18:39 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-156-179.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:18:52 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:54 levente_meszaros annotated #94442 "command line help for the server running at dwim.hu (called hu.dwim.home)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94442#1 20:19:50 -!- davazp [~user@68.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:55 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-153-48.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:55 *Xach* stores "engedjbe" away for logging into hungarian banks 20:20:13 rickmode [~rickmode@64.134.237.12] has joined #lisp 20:20:48 *Xach* withdraws 1 MILLION forints! 20:20:55 we spent more time with enterprise bullshit than that... ;) 20:20:59 raison [~raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 20:21:15 Xach, that would be a catastrophic failure if that password would be usable in production 20:21:17 heh, if you only knew how much that's worth... :) 20:23:41 francogrex [~user@91.180.213.84] has joined #lisp 20:24:02 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 20:24:17 off topic: do you guys hang out in other channels than #lisp on irc? 20:24:32 rme: I just followed the instructions there. gdb is attached to ccl64. but when I ran the form that used to crash ccl64. It didn't return. 20:24:50 francogrex: yes. 20:24:52 there's #dwim.hu for anything related to our stuff 20:25:05 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:20 Xach; programming or social unwinding channel? 20:25:24 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 20:25:56 rme: here's a screenshot http://imagebin.org/83550. 20:26:39 now on topic: does this seem right to you? http://paste.lisp.org/display/94444 20:27:14 francogrex: no. 20:27:16 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:27:25 especially the "append part" 20:27:39 francogrex: the indentation is wrong. 20:28:12 Xach: the indentation is beautiful 20:28:25 done by emacs 20:28:41 francogrex: You have educated emacs stupid, then. 20:29:08 leo2007: try starting the lisp, and then attaching a gdb to it separately. i.e., start gdb in another window, "attach ", "source .gdbinit", "cont", and then try to crash the lisp. 20:29:23 ok other than the "indentation" 20:30:50 francogrex: what do you expect to happen? 20:31:26 rme: ok, I get to 'Program received signal SIGTRAP, Trace/breakpoint trap.' 20:31:41 type "where" to get a backtrace 20:31:54 Xach; what happens is some char at pos 12 is being replaced by Z and that's ok, but the if-exists append is that acceptable? 20:32:55 it places file-position at the end instead of at beginning where it natuarlly should be 20:33:27 francogrex: if you specify :append, why do you feel the file position should be at the beginning and not at the end? 20:33:29 leo2007 pasted "bt" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94445 20:33:59 rme: thanks. paste 94445 is the bt. Any thing suspicious? 20:34:20 Xach: but what other option than append do i have without destroying the original contents of the file? 20:35:01 francogrex: did you read the documentation of OPEN? it might give you some ideas. 20:35:22 francogrex: there are several options for if-exists that might be applicable. 20:35:33 francogrex: and direction 20:36:01 if-exists---one of :error, :new-version, :rename, :rename-and-delete, :overwrite, :append, :supersede, or nil. 20:36:45 let's try nil? 20:36:57 francogrex: It's not clear to me what you want to do. What do you want to do? 20:37:11 francogrex: it will also help to read the descriptions of each option. 20:37:20 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.167] has joined #lisp 20:37:58 Xach: i want to change the value of one or more chars in the file 20:38:14 francogrex: why did you think NIL would be the right option to use in that situation? 20:38:20 without reading in all in memory and then writing out all anew 20:38:34 why not 20:38:53 francogrex: That is a pretty stupid answer. Try again. 20:39:55 supersede is no good 20:40:05 append is ok but not great 20:41:05 :new-version is shit 20:41:35 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:42:03 -!- jollygood [~jollygood@129.71.215.161] has quit [Quit: jollygood] 20:42:10 pkhuong: Can you provide a pointer to that notification stuff for lock-free algorithms? ("event" is very googable) 20:43:17 bingo; always the last one you expect 20:44:08 now is it really random access or is it fake? 20:44:11 java.util.concurrent.locks.LockSupport maybe? 20:45:37 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:46:29 pkhuong: that looks good, thank you 20:48:08 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:48 pkhuong: another thing; in _Futexes are tricky_, section 2, it says: "The futex itself is a variable of type int at the user level, pointed to by addr1. It has a size of 4 bytes on all plattforms, 32-bit, and 64-bit." 20:49:16 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:49:26 I don't understand how it can be 4 bytes on 64bit systems if it's an address 20:50:02 bigger mouths :) 20:50:12 ah the thing in kernel space is always 4 bytes? 20:50:19 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.79.101] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:50:31 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:47 tcr: no, it's the address of the 4 byte datum that's a futex. 20:50:48 Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-103.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:51:12 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:19 maxalwings [~user@196.12.149.253] has joined #lisp 20:51:28 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-12-120.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51:37 You could say that the int is a futex, but its address is essential to the futex's working. 20:52:18 What is "It" in that cited sentence? 20:52:35 Just curious: is the linux kernel restricted to 4 GB of memory addressing even when running in 64-bit more? 20:52:36 the address of the int/futex. 20:52:40 rickmode: no. 20:52:44 Why would it? 20:53:03 pkhuoung: weird - must be some sort of magic offset then 20:53:12 rickmode: no. 20:53:22 pkhuong: I don't understand that; I cannot believe this is supposed to say that only 4 bytes of the address are used to discriminate? 20:53:31 or an ID of some sort (like maybe there'll never be more than 4 billion futexes 20:53:47 tcr: no. What it says is that a futex is a 4 byte int. 20:53:49 does [ in filenames have something to do with wild pathnames? 20:54:02 rme: after the crash caught by gdb, if I type continue and then detach. The lisp continues to run and from this point onwards, the same recipe can not crash the lisp any more. 20:54:04 All the kernel side stuff is attached to the int's *address*. 20:54:25 pkhuong: Ah, it's a 4byte in user-space, hence it's necessary to know the size of the thing! 20:54:27 So it's more accurate (imo) to say that a futex is the address of ah int. 20:54:27 not filenames rather, but non-pathspecs 20:54:53 tcr: right, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do the nice atomically-frob-and-maybe-wait stuff. 20:56:14 ok thank you that was illuminating 20:58:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:02:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:07:31 triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:07:53 ok this is now: http://paste.lisp.org/display/94448 21:08:23 -!- triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:08:38 leo2007: so the problem appears to happen as a result of calling the foreign function c_plinit(). It might be worth looking carefully at how you use that function (wrt argument passing, memory allocation, whatever). Another thing might be to write a little C program that calls c_plinit() to see if the same issue arises. 21:08:54 triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:09:33 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Nichts mehr.] 21:09:44 intruder is overwriting other chars that's ok; how to make it "displace" instead of overwrite? 21:10:06 so it's like inserting in a doc 21:10:40 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-108-211.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:10:43 triyo_ [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:11:03 -!- triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:03 -!- triyo_ is now known as triyo 21:13:35 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:14:26 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:14:29 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 21:14:43 francogrex: you can't do that without rewriting the file. 21:14:59 francogrex: there is a lot of history about how editors try to do that efficiently. 21:15:24 http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/tweak/btree.html is vaguely along those lines. 21:15:48 -!- triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-167-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:19 ok i'll read those 21:17:21 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:06 yes interesting they talk about the "insert mode" 21:19:24 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 21:19:43 Emacs seems to put tabs when auto-indenting lisp code - is this the way people typically do it, or should I be changing a setting? 21:19:44 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 21:20:07 levente_meszaros annotated #94369 "semantic indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94369#1 21:20:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:20:17 Modius: (setq indent-tabs-mode nil) 21:23:15 iirc you need setq-default 21:23:50 chessguy [~chessguy@pool-96-255-155-17.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:37 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:14 Fare: have a minute to talk ASDF? 21:26:28 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@64.134.237.12] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 21:26:44 -!- gulash [~kaste@81.198.243.236] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:27:35 pkhuong: Where should I put that form? 21:27:54 pkhuong: I put it in my .emacs and it didn't do it. 21:28:08 rpg, yes 21:28:10 Modius: tcr's probably right then. 21:28:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:28:30 Fare: I think I'm going to have a quick run at https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/502946 21:28:42 jleija_ [~jleija@adsl-91-4-159.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:07 Having modules not get recompiled when there are changes across modules is about to bite a large system I need to work on. 21:29:19 makes sense 21:29:30 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:35 it's incompatible only in the sense of "broken things cease to be broken" IMHO 21:29:36 Before I do --- did those two patches I sent you go in cleanly? 21:29:51 if someone WANTS a fast, broken build, *HE* should have to override the defaults 21:30:07 I think they did, except that I realized afterwards they had no commit message... oops 21:30:17 in any case, they are part of ASDF 1.604 21:30:39 if you make that change, I'll call that ASDF 1.650 21:31:08 or you can do it yourself. These days, my repo and the official repo are in synch 21:31:28 since I'm done with my "heavy hacking that breaks stuff" period. 21:31:35 pkhuong, tcr - thanks, yes, (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) 21:31:40 I don't feel like making any major change to ASDF anymore. 21:31:47 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-252.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:31:48 rme: I just did a small c file calling c_plinit, it didn't crash. 21:31:52 Fare: OK. I will pull an update and make sure I'm in sync, and then work on that module issue, which I hope will be a minor change. 21:32:06 just the bug fixing, documenting, testing, and then shipping to implementation maintainers. 21:32:28 I think we're nearly ready for an official 2.0 release. 21:32:41 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 21:32:43 I'm pushing ASDF 1.604 to ITA right now. 21:34:17 Agreed about the documentation. 21:34:46 I will try to put tcr's test into the repo together with a patch. 21:34:51 it's lacking, especially after my changes. There lacks a HOWTO use the new configuration facility. 21:35:04 I'm glad that now all tests pass on all implementations. 21:35:21 which indeed found a few dodgy spots in ASDF 21:35:28 Fare: it's also lacking a discussion of how to make your own custom component and operation. 21:35:30 especially with ABL / AOT. 21:35:54 That would be a worthy thing to document, but I won't work on THAT part. 21:35:57 leo2007: My telepathic debugging skills are reaching their limit. If you think there's a ccl bug here and can come up with a reasonably small test case, please make a ticket on trac.clozure.com/ccl and I'll try to take a look. 21:36:03 because I'd rather spent the same time on XCVB. 21:36:16 VTimage [~VTimage@c211-30-168-85.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:36:26 Should I learn lisp or scheme? 21:36:35 The ASDF "protocol" is not adequately documented --- it's not clear what a complete set of methods is. If I get a chance I'll put something in, but I am getting more and more occupied with Real Work\tm 21:36:40 Whereas the "how do I configure things?" part is what I contributed to and hope can help software distribution the most. 21:36:46 VTimage, depends. What for? 21:37:01 To learn a functional language 21:37:07 then Scheme. 21:37:10 or OCaml 21:37:12 or Haskell 21:37:23 and why is that? 21:37:28 or SML. 21:37:56 Isn't lisp fully functional? 21:37:57 Lisp lacks tail-recursion (portably at least), a feature most important to a lot of functional programming styles 21:38:15 important only for speed? 21:38:26 VTimage: and not blowing the stack, I'd say 21:38:26 VTimage: important for correctness. 21:38:47 How does tail recursion affect correctness? 21:38:50 no. For writing higher-order loop components in a modular way. 21:38:55 maxal [~user@196.12.149.253] has joined #lisp 21:39:12 (though as usual you can make do with trampolines, which can suck) 21:39:38 VTimage, if you don't distinguish between success and crash, it doesn't. 21:39:46 or if you have infinite memory 21:39:56 Fare, how do you mean "portably", does that mean that some implementation does implement TCO and some does not, or you meant something else ? 21:40:00 VTimage: it guarantees that a class a programs uses constant space. 21:40:04 I think it depends on whether you want to learn functional programming or functional programming + type theory. 21:40:13 If the former, scheme, if the latter, Haskell. 21:40:23 rme: OK. I don't know where the problem is. But thanks anyway. 21:40:25 milanj, some do, with the proper (DECLARE (OPTIMIZE ...)) settings. Notably CCL and SBCL at least. 21:40:37 Fare: ACL does, as well. 21:40:50 notably CCL, SBCL, ACL. 21:41:04 But I don't know that there's a single set of optimize settings that will ensure TCO across different implementations. 21:41:09 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Quit: blackened`] 21:41:17 Type theory? like ints and strings and doubles? 21:41:23 I'd write a macro that does the magic declaration, except that declaration processing may happen before macroexpansion... sigh. 21:41:27 data types? 21:41:30 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 21:41:31 *sigh* 21:41:40 -!- maxal [~user@196.12.149.253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:40 -!- maxalwings [~user@196.12.149.253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:52 leo2007: sorry I can't be more helpful 21:42:11 hi beach! I'm taking a look at flexchains, spotting some typos in the Design.pdf, and preparing a patch with some trivial matters 21:42:19 VTimage, like Barendregt Cube, Curry-Howard isomorphism. 21:42:25 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:42:33 Fare, #. 21:42:42 Fare thanks, i thought so, by "portably" i meant something else 21:42:42 levente_meszaros, sure. 21:42:54 levente_meszaros, good point. 21:43:01 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:07 Lispworks does TCO in compiled code. 21:43:26 because with yours portably planty of CL is not "portably" 21:43:29 So, who's to write a CL-TCO module? 21:43:30 And it removes the callee's hold on a reference in compiled code/makes items eligible for collection the very last time they can be touched. 21:43:34 I mean, caller's 21:43:40 levente_meszaros, do you have the magic statement? 21:43:58 no 21:44:01 #.(tco:declaration) 21:45:39 What I want is a tailcall operator in your implementation which signals a warning if the implementation cannot in fact optimize away the tail call 21:47:37 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:48:31 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:49:44 Should I get a book on lisp, or read a tutorial? 21:49:46 !book\ 21:49:50 ~book 21:49:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:49:58 tcr: Excellent! Flexichain is one of those libraries that I tested a lot, and that I want to be very riliable, so I welcome not only your fixes but also your tests. 21:50:00 VTimage, once again, what's the goal 21:50:06 minion: tell VTimage about pcl 21:50:07 VTimage: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:50:07 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:50:20 at ITA, we give PCL to all new hackers who don't know Lisp 21:50:28 (see above) 21:50:53 beach, chao anh 21:51:00 What is ITA? 21:51:07 Fare: How's the rampup time on new people? 21:51:22 Fare: Chao em, em khoe khong? 21:51:28 itasoftware.com - we have over 50 Lisp hackers on the payroll, I believe. 21:51:44 beach: how do you say "meh" in vietnamese? 21:51:47 -!- ryepup [~ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 21:51:56 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-24-234-246-31.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:06 Fare: beats me. I just finished the "intro" level. 21:52:13 Modius, can start writing semi-decent code in two weeks. Review and supervision help a lot. 21:52:22 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:33 Review and Supervision always help 21:52:47 Are there any goof lisp tutorials? 21:52:49 good* 21:52:53 like web sites 21:52:56 having loads of actually good code around to read helps too 21:52:57 VTimage: again, pcl 21:53:10 ok 21:53:11 VTimage: look at PCL, it's free to read online. 21:53:15 in practice, someone who knows programming in any language can learn enough of lisp to be productive very fast. Then, to learn advanced tricks can take years. 21:53:22 VTimage: srsly, try PCL, then come back for more (it's available on web) 21:53:24 -!- francogrex [~user@91.180.213.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:53:28 VTimage: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 21:53:47 Fare: and to use it with taste - it takes years for every language :) 21:54:01 Fare: The good part is that after only 3 months, I'll be moving to the intermediate level. I don't know much what that means, since I am learning in multiple ways. 21:54:15 Fare: Do you insist on Emacs use? 21:54:25 Well I don't really care about the lack of tail recursion. Java and Python are missing it. 21:54:50 Fare: in the 'you can write fortran in any language' sense of 'productive'. I recently found some older code.... don't quite know what i was thinking but it was horrible! 21:54:54 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:55:32 it's still being used though, so i was doing something right i suppose. 21:56:29 so, anyone knows the TCO declaration for SBCL? CCL? Allegro? etc.? 21:56:54 Speaking of which, my students might show up again this year, and last year some of them did so in a not-so-acceptable way. 21:57:29 Really? I don't remember any bad behavior from students. 21:57:32 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:33 beach: where should I send the mail to? the mcclim list? 21:57:41 pjb: It was minor. 21:57:54 Fare: sbcl does TCO by default 21:58:06 tcr: strandh at labri.fr 21:58:16 (to my great dismay) 21:58:31 Isn't fortran the first high level language? 21:58:52 VTimage: the high-level part is IMHO arguable 21:58:57 VTimage: No (because it is not high level) 21:59:09 Fare: bah --- my getopts in run-tests.sh doesn't work for usage --- the script doesn't exit after printing usage on -h. 21:59:23 This is what happens if you send a csh-user to do a bash-user's job. 21:59:52 ccl does tco it unless debug is 3. 22:00:02 VTimage: These days, I require that a HLL have automatic memory management. 22:00:19 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 22:00:31 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: gone] 22:02:02 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:02:06 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:02:54 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:03:51 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:04 rme: is there a way to declare debug to not be three? 22:04:21 rme: and/or to extract the current debug setting? 22:04:27 meh. 22:04:34 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 22:05:21 (ccl:declaration-information 'optimize) 22:05:51 beach, how much does a VN lisp cost these days? 22:06:07 also maybe see http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/DeclareOptimize 22:06:25 rme: does CCL do declaration processing before or after macro expansion? (is the latter allowed at all?) 22:07:28 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 22:07:36 Fare: One with a MS degree from our program, between 0.5 and 1kEUR (or was that USD?) per month. Why? 22:07:37 -!- deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 22:07:41 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:08:15 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:08:21 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 22:08:41 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:09:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 22:09:51 rme: exactly what I needed 22:09:56 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:10:30 rme: it's not clear how to bind this function POLICY.ALLOW-TAIL-RECURSION-ELIMINATION 22:10:57 Fare: it doesn't work for macros to expand into declarations in ccl. 22:11:07 beach: sent 22:12:11 so, how would I locally bind POLICY.ALLOW-TAIL-RECURSION-ELIMINATION to constantly t? 22:12:28 tcr: Thanks! 22:13:25 Fare: not allowed in CL, but required in pre-standard-CL, I believe. 22:13:35 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:41 gulash [~root@81.198.243.236] has joined #lisp 22:13:53 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 22:14:01 -!- VTimage [~VTimage@c211-30-168-85.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 22:14:07 I also see something called nx-tailcalls though I don't understand how to use it 22:14:44 -!- ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:15:07 will (declare (optimize (ccl::nx-tailcalls))) work? 22:15:52 I got CLX package working before some minutes, but X crashed whole PC, and I lost everything I had done in emacs. I'm pretty sure that xlib thing still is somewhere, but where and how do I get it all back? 22:16:13 -!- timchen1` [tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:19 timchen1` [tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 22:16:25 Fare: a compiler policy is a lisp object. You'd make a new one and set its slots to predicates. See NEW-COMPILER-POLICY in ccl:compiler;nx-basic.lisp 22:17:05 what if I don't want to change the policy, only what's happening in the current scope? 22:18:54 Fare: whoops! We messed up the new definition of quit-on-error, masking test failures! 22:18:58 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 22:19:04 save (current-compiler-policy) and set a new one with (set-current-compiler-policy new-policy) then restore the old one. 22:20:09 heyhey [~512beda8@gateway/web/freenode/x-gcvskxbhmtwtkpjr] has joined #lisp 22:20:34 rpg, oops. That explains why all tests passed so easily, then! 22:20:35 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754a09.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:43 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 22:21:07 Fare: Yes, it turns out that there may be /multiple/ calls to quit-on-error in a single test script, but the last patch exits if the first runs w/o error. 22:21:15 Fare: Patch coming. 22:21:25 can you commit directly? 22:21:44 you have commit privileges, don't you? 22:22:54 beach, I could probably afford one at .5kEUR a month. 22:22:55 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-10-255.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:11 definitely at .5kUSD 22:25:27 rme: I wrote to the developer of cl-plplot and he wrote back to say "my guess would be some sort of conflict between one process trying to run two separate windowing environments (the ccl64 one and the aquaterm one)." 22:25:45 Fare: I could probably help you out with that if you like. 22:27:00 beach: I'll send you email when the situation becomes concrete. 22:27:16 Fare: Sounds good. 22:27:23 what do they know when out of that program anyway? 22:27:37 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:28:02 do they know what a system call is? a higher-order function? logarithmic vs linear vs quadratic vs exponential complexity? 22:28:10 Sorry for cluelessness but what is 'VN Lisp'? Venue? 22:28:40 vietnam lisp, perhaps. 22:29:02 Fare: give me a minute and I will see if I can figure out how to do that. 22:29:10 Fare: They are supposed to, yes. But so are our French students, and we know that is not always the case. But they are smart so they'll learn fast. 22:29:54 kencausey: VN is the standard abbreviation for Vietnam. 22:31:21 rme: there is no more #clozure or some such? 22:31:51 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:52 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:22 beach: So, I'm still confused, this is a Vietnamese specific implementation? I suspect I've just completely jumped into the middle of something without sufficient context and so am way off on an irrelevant tangent. Excuse me if so. 22:33:41 #lisp outsourcing campaign 22:33:43 Fare: Hm. Not sure how quit-on-error is supposed to work... 22:34:05 -!- heyhey [~512beda8@gateway/web/freenode/x-gcvskxbhmtwtkpjr] has left #lisp 22:34:33 hmm perhaps s/lisp/lisper/ 22:35:07 kencausey: There is no specific implementation. Just my classes in Ho Chi Minh City and my students there with varying degrees of involvement in Lisp. 22:35:44 Fare: #ccl 22:36:48 Fare: Ugh. QUIT-ON-ERROR has been busted *forever*. 22:37:20 Turns out you can only have one per test script. 22:37:37 I will have to fix all the scripts. 22:37:45 -!- konr [~user@201.82.136.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:29 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-201-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:39:03 tcr: Hey, thanks for all those comments! Are you thinking of using flexichain in some project? 22:39:08 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.22.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39:24 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-118-48.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 22:40:06 hey hefner. I wish I were where you are! 22:40:07 leo2007: but you weren't using the ccl Cocoa IDE, I didn't think. when run from a terminal or slime, ccl doesn't have a window system environment. 22:40:09 rpg: wonderful! 22:40:12 No I just have the evening free, I'm too tired to think about multithreading, and hence thought about looking at flexichain to integrate it into sbcl's extensible sequences 22:40:14 hi. 22:40:51 Fare: I thought I had to fix quit-on-error so that it tolerated being called more than once, but that's not feasible. Need to ensure no script calls it more than once, instead. 22:41:05 unicode [~user@95.214.54.124] has joined #lisp 22:41:08 http://paste.lisp.org/display/94454#1 22:41:14 tcr: That should not be too hard. 22:41:41 Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:44 beach: Yeah, the first thing I want to do is to add print-object methods.. 22:41:49 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.94.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:42:14 a flexichain sequence sounds sexy 22:42:15 tcr: Sure, why not. 22:42:36 *hefner* pauses, is not sure what that means 22:42:38 ramus: i believe that's a suprious note. 22:42:44 i see 22:42:50 sellout, thanks! 22:42:54 beach: I wonder why the slot is called data-start, but the actual first value is at (1+ data-start)? 22:43:07 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:43:21 ramus: sbcl uses some heuristics to decide not to show you deleted macro-generated code, and i think it fails there. i've had that in a few instances involving streams. 22:43:23 tcr: perhaps because (incf data-start) is used? 22:43:33 -!- rme [rme@clozure-51821EF0.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 22:43:34 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 22:43:47 hefner: My older brother just came home after 3 months in .th. He is now planning to spend 4-6 months per year there. 22:44:05 ramus: of course, you should be using read-sequence instead. 22:45:01 beach: not the hot and rainy ones, I hope. 22:45:19 ramus: alexandria has read-file-into-byte-vector 22:45:24 tcr: Good question. I can't remember that at this point, but it should not be visible to client code. Are you planning to add to or modify the implementation? 22:45:44 hefner: I have no idea. 22:45:49 beach: I'm to tired to think through the actual implementation; it's for the print-object method 22:45:52 Xach/tcr: thanks for the tips, i'll look into those 22:46:15 Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32C407.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:15 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32C407.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:46:15 Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 22:46:39 tcr: Oh, that should be an easy one. Just iterate over "position" or whatever I named it. 22:47:05 tcr: In other words, don't use the implementation, but just the interface. 22:47:33 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:47:44 Well I think I want to illustrate the gap, too 22:47:56 (x y z ... a b c) 22:48:10 tcr: I see, that's different indeed. 22:48:20 For the moment it's just for myself and experimenting interactively 22:48:39 Fare: OK, I think I have test scripts fixed, but now test1 is failing for me on SBCL and I know why and I know how those multiple quit-on-errors crept in... 22:48:52 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:14 -!- gulash [~root@81.198.243.236] has quit [Quit: Ninja, please.] 22:49:15 so much faster now. how'd i manage to miss read-sequence 22:50:10 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:50:12 Fare: the additional quit-on-error was added here because of a package error in reading the script. 22:50:32 tcr: I am willing to help you out of course, but my memory is such that I need to recall some of this stuff. But send me mail or bug me here about specifics if you like. 22:55:13 cl-mysql or clsql for pretty trivial mysql work ? 22:55:16 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@82.174.238.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:58:28 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 22:58:52 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:14 Fare: OK, my first git push. Knock wood it's ok. 23:03:39 -!- milanj [~milan@109.93.200.127] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:03:50 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:04:01 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 23:04:21 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 23:05:49 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.54.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:07:30 unicode [~user@95.214.86.102] has joined #lisp 23:08:25 Fare: One more (allegro only). When you get a chance, please pull an update and run the tests on your end to make sure I didn't bork anything. 23:09:06 -!- TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:09:20 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:10:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.10.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:11:14 cmm [~cmm@109.64.10.30] has joined #lisp 23:11:25 rpg: thanks a lot! 23:11:43 Fare: OK, back soon! 23:12:25 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:12:27 3 failures with CCL :( 23:13:17 ecl still passes :) 23:13:29 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 23:13:45 so does clisp 23:13:57 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-164-161.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:14:34 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:10 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 23:16:20 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.114.177.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:16:30 pinterface [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:08 Fare: ACL fails. Portability issue. See new bug ticket. Now I'm *really* leaving! 23:18:06 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:18:08 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:18:14 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.49.140] has joined #lisp 23:19:03 and CCL is right to complain 23:20:32 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:22:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 23:23:01 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 23:28:51 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:29:38 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 23:30:11 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:30:25 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has joined #lisp 23:30:25 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has quit [Changing host] 23:30:25 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:30:40 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.86.102] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:34:30 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Client Quit] 23:34:40 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.249.11] has joined #lisp 23:34:47 merl15 [~merl@80-121-44-63.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:34:57 *Fare* uses truename to fix issues... 23:36:02 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:36:53 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:28 CCL found issue with the test suite (not with ASDF itself), and the tests were fixed. 23:38:42 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: updates] 23:39:00 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-94-56.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:39:50 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:54 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:01 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 23:40:28 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:21 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:46 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:15 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:49 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:45:59 -!- nuba is now known as nodie 23:46:05 -!- rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:46:15 -!- nodie is now known as nuba 23:49:19 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:15 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:01 S11001001 [~sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 23:58:13 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving]