00:00:09 defining things and binding variables is not the domain i want to work in. 00:00:34 when I modify a package, I currently load the package's file and then use in-package 00:00:39 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:00:39 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:00:45 is there a simpler/faster way of doing the same thing? 00:00:48 yes, I can see that.. but they may have value for the layer below 00:01:03 -!- prxq [~mommer@f050203096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:01:16 fatblueduck: you can learn about ASDF 00:01:26 minion: tell fatblueduck about asdf 00:01:26 fatblueduck: please see asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 00:01:39 minion: tell fatblueduck about xach-asdf 00:01:39 fatblueduck: have a look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 00:01:46 adeht: okay thanks! I'm using asdf now so this makes me happy a solution is near :) 00:01:53 fatblueduck: why not just C-c C-c the file in slime and go about your business 00:01:59 I'm using it to load zpng for the moment... 00:02:05 rme: is ccl trunk stable? 00:02:25 So, I'm almost done with x86-64-assem.S: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/blob/10b9f8f897a1f576584020e0cbe40b2e5157d210:/src/runtime/x86-64-assem.S 00:02:29 adeht: indeed they may, but i don't work in that layer, so see no need to add another one above it :) 00:02:47 *stassats* always runs ccl trunk, never had any major problems 00:02:52 nyef, shall we have a RIP ceremony when you're done? 00:03:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/94318 <--- me using macros 00:03:12 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-32-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:19 drewc: on the other hand, too many layers make a very smelly onion :) 00:03:35 every form in that file is a macro, and all but the first two defined by me 00:03:37 Fare: Next boston-lisp-meeting work for you? 00:03:46 err 00:03:51 define-layered-method is not mine either 00:04:14 drewc: like I said earlier, I love SETF.. these other abstractions, I don't value as much at the moment.. but maybe they do have potential.. 00:04:18 stassats: thanks for that 00:04:50 Fare: If necessary, I could even put together a five-minute eulogy, though I'm not sure it would have much interest, given that it's mostly arcane details about the SBCL build process and some C preprocessor abuse. 00:04:54 adeht: i just don't see the value in renaming things and combining different functionality... 00:05:17 nyef, sure. But I don't have a regular speaker. Unless you can have a funeral oration for 30 minutes. 00:05:19 DEF, for example, can also control the visibiltiy of a symbol when defining a function. 00:05:23 leo2007: I run it all the time, and we don't intentionally screw it up, but there are sometimes brief episodes of brokenness or instability. 00:05:41 well, IIRC, this is lisp 2, and symbols have very little to do with functions. 00:05:41 I definately don't have a half-hour worth of material for this. 00:05:42 any speaker for the february BLM? 00:06:01 so why would i export a symbol from a function defining form? 00:06:21 drewc, I think that's an issue with hu.dwim.def, not with the general idea of having a definer abstraction. 00:06:35 drewc: well others do see value in these forms, and I like that we have a variety of people experimenting with the language and sharing their experience 00:06:45 Adlai: true enough. 00:07:10 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 00:07:20 adeht: i just hate to see smart programmers wasting their time solving the wrong problems and wasting my time by creating more. 00:08:19 drewc: it's your time you choose to waste.. their problems are different from your own, and they solve them as they see fit.. and what matters to them is that they deliver their application, and they do 00:09:11 adeht: indeed, that doesn't mean i have to like it, use it, or advocate it... and that doesn't mean i'll keep my opinions to myself. 00:09:37 drewc: sure.. 00:09:54 adeht: i think the discussion is useful even if their code is not :) 00:10:49 adeht: and i'm particularly butthurt, as i spend a lot of time de-HCL'ing a codebase (UCW) after attila had his way with it... it's personal as well :) 00:11:10 hehe 00:11:50 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:11:54 I remember when i wrote the UCW test suite, in 5am. I gave it to attila to include, he immediately re-wrote it in Stefil (which was, at the time, very much written in HCL) before including in in upstream. 00:12:18 rme: that's good for me too. BTW, the ccl trunk has the same revision number as 1.4, is that weird? 00:12:20 i found that particularly annoying! 00:12:29 drewc: you could do what EN did with IF* 00:12:40 write a macro to de-HCL :) 00:12:44 adeht: i did 00:12:51 inline-macroexpand-attila 00:13:28 stefil has fewer dependencies than 5am. 00:13:29 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 00:13:36 makes it slightly lighterweight 00:13:39 Fare: revisionist history mate ;) 00:13:48 never mind 00:14:00 Fare: we're talking quite a few years ago 00:14:04 Fare: caring about dependencies is a symptom, isn't it :) 00:14:27 stefil required a custom fork of SLIME at the time, so don't even try to tell me i'm complaining about nothing 00:14:31 :D 00:15:29 drewc: ah, for the slime integration.. but the fork came about from disagreement in the SLIME camp 00:15:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:15:58 adeht: it also requried a custom arnesi and a few others 'from our repo until patches are included upstream' 00:16:14 drewc: seems reasonable 00:16:28 me, when i need a patch or hack, i include it in my system! 00:16:41 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-117-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 00:16:44 drewc: why should they mess up their code? 00:16:48 huh> 00:16:49 ? 00:16:54 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.210.55] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:16:55 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:17:16 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-11574.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:17:17 stefil now separates its core from the slime stuff 00:17:19 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:17:19 adeht: how does the location of a bugfix or feature addition mess up anyones code? 00:17:29 drewc: they hack their application and for some reason need to change one of the dependencies.. should they put it in the deps or the app? 00:17:38 Fare: and germany is peaceful.. that has not always been that case. 00:18:43 drewc: one day, I'll rewrite UCW in Sheeple, just to spite you! :P 00:18:47 adeht: neither? i put my stuff in a -patches file that i load 00:18:56 sykopomp: go for it, how would that spite me? 00:18:57 I know when I need to change some third party code I do it in the third party code's (distributed) repo 00:19:09 they do the same, and just share their changes 00:19:18 ccl trunk compile failure 00:19:20 http://paste.lisp.org/display/94327 00:19:30 i don't do that, not if i plan to distribute the code 00:19:37 what is the point of shipping code that doesn't work? 00:19:55 drewc: their code does work.. you're not the primary target audience for the shipping :) 00:20:02 adeht: this was _my_ code 00:20:16 leo2007: did you try :GO? 00:20:25 i am refering to code i wrote and contributed to a project i have been contributing to since attila was still in BASIC 00:20:38 drewc: I dunno about that then 00:20:49 drewc: do I sense a "get off my lawn" coming up? 00:20:51 :D 00:20:58 -!- Hun [~hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:01 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.23.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:21:13 sykopomp: no, you again fail to get my point by assuming something about my motivations. 00:22:17 not yet.any idea why the constant has two different values? 00:22:20 *drewc* doesn't care anymore 00:22:22 drewc: I'm trying to be funny and failing hard :( 00:22:30 leo2007: because it was redefined? 00:22:43 leo2007: it was wrong, and I corrected it. 00:22:50 sykopomp: it's more like "please stop shitting in my soup" 00:23:06 see, that's funny. I can't come up with shit like that :( 00:23:07 thanks 00:23:24 #lisp is funny tonight 00:23:42 drewc: but having your own system for the patches is not a good idea if your think that this code will perhaps go upstream one day 00:24:32 adeht: i have a version of FUNCALL-WITH-SPECIAL-INITARGS that has been in my tree since i invented the idea... it's since become a part of contextl proper. 00:24:34 drewc: it also doesn't work well with pulling in new changes (can't easily merge stuff) 00:25:14 it's not hard to take a function with a bug in it .. copy the source, RENAME IT, and use it in your own system 00:25:22 *Xach* is almost done with his NIH cl-launch-alike 00:25:23 if it belongs in upstream, you try and get it there. 00:25:30 Xach: yay! 00:25:36 if it doesn't, you leave it in your system 00:25:48 now that ASDF does output translation, I can probably gut that part of cl-launch... 00:25:51 you don't fork, but keep the same name, and expect me to use your version. 00:25:59 drewc: well, they do seem to send patches.. it's just that they won't wait until they're accepted/rejected :) 00:26:03 and if you do, i'll bitch about you on #lisp 00:26:15 Xach, what does your script do and not do? 00:26:19 adeht: then you rename the system! 00:26:35 adeht: otherwise, you show you don't care about your users... and you may not.. 00:27:05 drewc: but we're not their clients, so we're not that important as users 00:27:07 but you don't take over public projects with users and proceed to alienate them... or if you do, expect me to bitch about it on #lisp :) 00:27:18 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:27:20 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229144194.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 00:28:01 adeht: I was a user of a system that they took over maintainance of. i am now the maintainer, by popular demand. 00:28:01 Fare: it's a lisp-only program that has a sensible (to me) command-line that i like. it doesn't work on anything but sbcl. 00:28:11 hc_e [~hc@salato.hcesperer.org] has joined #lisp 00:28:21 hi 00:28:28 "not on anything but sbcl" certainly simplifies it quite a bit. 00:28:39 Fare: what's output translation? 00:28:48 kpreid, output pathname translation 00:29:05 Fare: yeah. i think it will be one of those only-useful-to-me tools that i'll share just to encourage sharing of random hacks. 00:29:05 adeht: I'm not talking about their dwim.hu stuff, which i can freely ignore... i'm talking about the framework i make my living programming in. 00:29:13 Fare: "now that"... is this something new over the asdf:output-files hack? 00:29:23 so instead of having your fasls in /foo/bar/baz.fasl, they are in ~/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.1-x86/foo/bar/baz.fasl 00:29:36 kpreid, an nth variation on the theme 00:29:37 drewc: yeah, I don't know too much about the ucw stuff. 00:29:44 adeht: so, HCL has taken food off my table, is what i'm saying. 00:29:51 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:29:51 closer to cl-launch or common-lisp-controller than to ABL. 00:29:54 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:54 Fare: i can't wait to (load-logical-pathname-translations "CACHE")! 00:29:55 adeht: that is a good reason to take some offense, IMO 00:30:01 but with a nicer configuration facility 00:30:24 Fare: I mean, did asdf get a new feature recently? 00:30:38 Xach, asdf lets you use logical pathnames if you like, but won't force them upon you. 00:30:46 I hope janderson will appreciate. 00:30:51 adeht: i don't blame anybody, or think them bad _people_ or anything of the sort... but i will speak out on what i see as bad practice... 00:30:57 kpreid, see the just released asdf 1.600 00:31:12 Does anyone know if sb-heapdump is available for the current sbcl release? I only managed to compile it for 1.0.9 00:31:14 adeht: and not for their sake either, but for the n00bs who don't know better :) 00:31:30 drewc: sorry, I'm allergic to appeals to newbies :) 00:31:38 I hope that by making it part of asdf, I can reduce the size of other beasts. 00:31:56 adeht: i have a vested interest... i end up hosting their lisp-based websites... 00:32:09 adeht: helping newbies puts food _on_ the table :P 00:32:16 I believe that between changes to cl-launch, common-lisp-controller and other things at ITA, the new ASDF may save more lines than it cost... but that's not sure yet. 00:32:28 -!- Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-8-240.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:32:48 drewc, speaking of which... do you have 64-bit servers yet? Or something more wieldy than Xen? 00:32:58 drewc: sure.. I like to help newbies as well.. just not when people appeal to them :) 00:33:04 with a more recent kernel than 2.6.18 or whatever? 00:33:09 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:10 Fare: we have 64 bit, but only in the UK 00:33:27 we i can get you up to .30 if you like.. what do you need the new kernel for? 00:33:31 I'm more worried about kernel version than UK vs CA, actually 00:33:35 or 64 vs 32 bit 00:33:56 hc_e, did you try and fail to compile it for the current release? 00:33:57 Fare: if we move you over to xen-seven, you can compile your own kernels 00:34:04 nice 00:34:12 Fare: the new Xen uses py-grub 00:34:51 nice 00:35:57 adeht: in more than one case, a newbie has become a client who wants me to help with their project.... keeping them away from DEF and BIND and DEFCLASS* means i don't ever have to re-write it to CL again. 00:36:25 Fare: Yes. I copied it from the lichteblau repository (git://repo.or.cz/sbcl/lichteblau.git) into the contribs/ -dir of the current sbcl release. 00:36:30 (and honestly, DEF and BIND are not so bad 00:36:33 ) 00:36:43 i just don't see a need 00:36:45 drewc: ok, that's advice to the newbie, not to the author of DEF/BIND :) 00:37:17 adeht: well, the advice i have for them is not really something i want publically logged :P 00:37:28 heh 00:37:38 I'll try and stay out of it ;) 00:37:41 but it's the same reason there is an angel on top of the xmas tree :) 00:38:06 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:38:06 (left field unless you know the puchline) 00:38:29 I recall a Steele piece about it.. but not its content 00:38:47 jebus.. where did the day go! 00:38:54 *drewc* actually has work to do 00:38:57 drewc: Complaining about DEF/BIND, apparently. 00:39:11 *nyef* is happy, though, he's almost finished with phase one of his current hack. 00:39:26 damnit .. how much of my time are those things going to waste! :) 00:39:35 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-117-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:43 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-117-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 00:40:29 DEF i don't mind all that much, but i looked through a codebase that used BIND, and only about 10% of its uses was mixing binding forms... the rest of the time it was just LET* 00:41:05 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:42:24 *drewc* is done 00:43:41 dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:42 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-24-234-246-31.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:45:30 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46:35 rpg [~rpg@72.11.106.198] has joined #lisp 00:47:14 Is there any symbol one could put in the :type slot to indicate "the type of file that is a fasl for this CL implementation?" 00:47:53 rpg: No, but it's fairly straightforward to find the appropriate value. 00:47:56 rpg: deftype I think 00:48:02 clhs compile-file-pathname 00:48:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp__1.htm 00:48:22 I'm running into a case where (load "asdf") gets confused because there's an asdf *directory* emitted by makeinfo --html, which hides asdf.fasl... 00:48:23 rpg: Pass something through that, and pick off the pathname-type of the result. 00:48:49 nixeagle: sorry --- it's type in pathname, not as in "cl datatype." 00:49:21 Umm... Why are do you have your documentation in the same directory as your fasls? 00:49:22 rpg: (load (compile-file-pathname "asdf.lisp")) ? 00:50:02 And what implementation is getting confused there? 00:50:23 nyef: SBCL (at least the old version I have) --- (load "asdf") says "hey that's a directory!" 00:50:30 I'm trying to fix up the test scripts. 00:50:33 Ah. 00:51:07 Ideally, I would just catch the result of (compile-file "asdf.lisp") but.... then I have to pass this mess through bash.... 00:51:50 Time to figure out what "export" really means... 00:52:00 rpg: Go with stassats' solution, maybe? 00:52:28 fe[nl]ix pasted "load-fasl-or-source" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94329 00:52:46 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:53:03 nyef: the problem is that the compile file is done in a top-level test file, that invokes other shell scripts that do the loading... . Need to look at the paste.... 00:53:53 fe[nl]ix: Thanks! You rule! 00:54:06 stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 00:54:42 if fasl doesn't exist maybe compile it? 00:55:03 otherwise you could load .lisp directly without bothering 00:55:17 -!- stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Client Quit] 00:55:48 rpg: have you just declared yourself my minion ? 00:56:35 fe[nl]ix: I have declared us all your minions... 00:57:04 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 00:57:11 luis might disagree :D 00:57:12 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Client Quit] 00:57:37 off with his head 00:57:50 -!- maelcoluim [~maelcolui@client-86-25-216-208.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:00:00 stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 01:01:55 QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:03:06 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-159-209-176.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:04:15 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:04:16 OT: what's the opposite of git add (remove an uncommitted file from the index?) 01:04:41 tankrim [~qsvans@c-31fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:04:41 nevermind --- git reset 01:04:51 rpg: Or git rm, perhaps? 01:04:52 /bin/rm? 01:05:10 stassats: Wouldn't affect the index. 01:05:20 oh, uncommitted, i've read as untracked 01:05:39 I'm not trying to undo the changes, just remove them from the index (so that I can stash the changes). 01:05:45 I just use git gui :) 01:06:13 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:06:21 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:06:25 adeht: that's one of those guis that is very helpful, but only if you don't actually neet a GUI ;-) Version Control GUIs all seem to have that flavor... 01:06:25 *stassats* once had bad experience with git-rm 01:06:57 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:07:03 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 01:09:12 rpg: http://cola.tuxfamily.org/ 01:11:03 -!- dfox [~dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:12:24 dnolen_ [~dnolen@pool-70-19-60-190.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:18 -!- malcolm_reynolds [~malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: malcolm_reynolds] 01:15:04 dfox [~dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 01:16:21 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:16:22 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 01:16:45 rpg, thanks for your asdf work! 01:17:38 -!- bobrown` is now known as reb` 01:18:07 Fare: Did you check out the build system I pointed you to? 01:18:15 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:19:26 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:18 Fare: No problem. Same to you! 01:20:42 Fare: as soon as I get your latest release merged I'll send some patches. 01:23:06 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:23:24 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-32.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: "may the source be with you"...omg nerd!] 01:23:30 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.205] has joined #lisp 01:23:47 BTW, anyone know how to run the git commands inside an emacs shell buffer? git keeps thinking I ought to have a pager... 01:24:21 rpg: Clojure will be defeated! >:@ 01:24:30 rpg: git command | cat ? 01:24:34 Clojure will be deleted! 01:24:43 rpg: Though be careful with git log and that. 01:24:47 pjb: deletef'd 01:25:03 rpg: maybe use git mode for emacs? 01:25:15 i haven't used it myself, still using VC 01:25:19 reb: was that vestasys? 01:27:08 Fare: No, I left a minion message for you. Inside Google's code for protocol buffers, the author has an example build file. 01:27:39 There's an implementation of the build system in Python, also on code.google.com. 01:27:46 oh, I remember seeing about that 01:28:02 of course, nothing works well with cl... 01:28:18 I can't remember the name of it. In any case, it borrows heavily from Google's internal build system. 01:28:43 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:28:58 The syntax is different (being Python class and method calls), but the large concepts are about the same. 01:29:14 gwynddyllyd [~yghorkers@201.29.218.151] has joined #lisp 01:29:51 lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 01:29:59 stassats: I should figure that out --- I've foundered on the Babel of different git modes... For now I use VC, too. 01:30:10 -!- ironChicken [~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:30:13 reb`: link ? 01:31:18 http://code.google.com/p/waf/ ? 01:32:10 maelcoluim [~maelcolui@client-86-25-216-208.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:20 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:33:33 An example build file is: src/google/protobuf/SEBS in this project: http://code.google.com/p/protobuf/ 01:33:43 rpg: I do (setenv "PAGER" "") in ~/.emacs 01:34:08 The build system itself is in this project: http://code.google.com/p/sebs/ 01:35:18 Fare / fe[nl]ix: Let me know what you think. 01:35:25 adeht: thanks. Just discovered setenv PAGER /bin/cat, which seems to do the same thing.... 01:39:44 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: lukego] 01:40:45 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:41:16 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:13 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:44:15 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:41 ktheman [~chatzilla@primary.lifeevents.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:45:22 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:45:59 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:47:23 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:47 anyone know of toolage to cherry-pick particular changes out of a git-diff to provide a patch file? 01:48:09 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:17 man git-cherry-pick? 01:48:17 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for git-cherry-pick?. 01:49:24 ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:32 -!- stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:49:54 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:50:13 ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:28 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 01:51:26 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:51:45 Thanks sykopomp. I will look into that more carefully. 01:52:23 Must dash now --- Fare, as soon as I can get git to belch up acceptable patch files, I'll send some to you (or attach them to launchpad tickets). 01:52:46 -!- rpg [~rpg@72.11.106.198] has quit [Quit: rpg] 01:53:00 rpg: you can use git-gui to add particular lines/hunks to the index, then diff to patch 01:53:09 heh 01:53:16 or you can commit upstream 01:54:39 hmm... I'd go with making a branch and using git-cherry-pick to add commits to it, then git-format-patch to generate a single patch file since branch creation, then delete the branch 01:54:43 heh, i never noticed specbot did that before 01:54:45 man alive! 01:54:46 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for alive!. 01:54:52 man that's crazy 01:55:00 (or just leave the branch as it is, to keep a history of what you did for the patch) 01:55:49 minion: more man? 01:55:49 man me harder 01:55:55 minion: more posix? 01:55:55 posix me harder 01:55:57 Hrm. 01:56:21 man splice 01:56:21 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for splice. 01:56:29 man sync 01:56:30 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man2/sync.2.html 01:56:40 man pread 01:56:40 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man2/pread.2.html 01:58:15 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-24-234-246-31.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:47 nyef: it's funny that we're the ones who will have to fix the bots if they break, yet here we are trying to break them. 01:59:07 Saves embarassment down the line. 01:59:14 If we break them, we're on hand to fix them. 01:59:20 minion: more clim? 01:59:20 clim me harder 01:59:21 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for me harder. 01:59:27 There we go, that was the one. 01:59:28 If only they would reply via /msg :) 01:59:52 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:12 drewc: Actually, I've been wondering about putting together a bot myself, possibly with MORE BRAINS than minion or gigamonkey's gigabot. 02:00:28 minion: more clim minion? 02:00:29 clim minion me harder 02:00:46 minion: chant? 02:00:46 MORE CLIM 02:01:02 We need more minion: chant. 02:01:08 minion: chant? 02:01:08 MORE MINION 02:01:41 "Red warrior needs MORE MINION" 02:02:05 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:02:18 You need a feature to allow one bot to ask the other bot questions so that they can pool their knowledge for the good of humanity. 02:02:58 it always start with 'for the good of humanity'. and then, BAM! Skynet. :) 02:03:12 nyef: i'd like to play as well... i was hoping to get a hold of gigabot's source, because i think AIML is a good aproach... but i bet you have something more fun in mind :) 02:03:39 Actually, I think that AIML is a terrible approach if you want actual smarts to your bot. 02:04:14 nyef: this is a debate we should have over beers, as the term 'actual smarts' is highly contestable :) 02:04:19 It's a pile of rewrite rules and something like two variables. 02:04:20 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:05:19 well, human beings are only like 23 conses.... 02:05:26 :P 02:05:50 ... and so many atoms 02:06:12 some pairs 02:06:17 AIML? 02:06:22 i have found that AIML bots with large vocabularies present a reasonable semblance of intellegence 02:06:23 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:06:24 -!- mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-daxyllfnrsgyvkeq] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:06:33 the same is true for people 02:07:14 Yes, but they're still badly limited, are they not? 02:07:17 ... the first thing I've got for AIML was "Artificial Intelligence Markup Language", another weird XML dialect 02:07:20 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:07:25 indeed, they are 02:07:27 p_l: That's the one. 02:07:27 nyef: the same is true for people ;) 02:07:47 ... oh god, a glorified ELIZA 02:07:47 koollman: That's nice, Q. 02:08:06 nyef: neural net + pattern matching would be a good start... 02:08:09 p_l: Exactly! 02:08:16 FYI, ELIZA was capable of getting deep personal info from people 02:08:18 anyway, if bots could pool their questions relative to programming, they would realise we suck at IT and should be upgraded or replaced 02:08:52 "I, for one, welcome our new robot IT department." 02:09:01 *p_l* was actually planning on making a bot capable of understanding simple english and acting on that 02:10:03 Before making the robots act on speach, we should be able to make the psychotic. 02:10:07 them. 02:10:57 pjb: You mean, give them the ability to hide snippets of code to erase peoples hard drives in example functions? 02:11:01 By way of feeling pain. 02:11:21 nyef: yes, and feel the consequences :-) 02:11:23 -!- quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:11:36 (Said consequences being... never living it down?) 02:12:03 when I want to test my .asd package, is it necessary to do (asdf:operate ...) (in-package :mypackage) each time I save a change? 02:12:34 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:44 I'd bet it's worse than that... 02:12:56 You'd have to (load "your.asd") before. 02:13:38 AFAIK, asdf caches the system definitions. 02:13:41 pjb: the creation of "Friendly" AI is very hard 02:14:08 p_l: making a careful one would be enough. Careful not to hurt. 02:14:08 minion, tell fatblueduck about packages 02:14:08 fatblueduck: please see packages: http://weitz.de/packages.html http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html http://flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 02:14:15 fatblueduck, please read the first link 02:14:21 ok 02:14:55 fatblueduck: unless you meant an .asd file containing the system definition for your lisp package, in which case readin the manual of asdf could be enough. 02:15:00 -!- bunz [~bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:16:20 #+clisp ;; Wrote the memory image into xxxx.mem (76,809,480 bytes) ; we can also make big images in clisp! :-) 02:16:48 Don't worry, haskell can make small ones now. :) 02:17:24 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:17:48 While with sbcl, it ends in Heap exhausted during garbage collection: 16 bytes available, 40 requested. ; More debugging is needed... 02:18:03 pjb: the problem is not with "AI" itself. The problems arise when you go into realm of "AGI", that is, intelligence capable of learning completely new concept and rewriting itself (just like human). Especially since they might well be much more intelligent than human. 02:19:14 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:19:28 <_deepfire> pjb, I have been routinely loading ~200 libraries into the same core using SBCL in the buildbot. 02:19:29 p_l: well, if we're speaking of robots, they've got the constraints of the real world, so the rewrite is not really "complete". We don't rewire our brains entirely everyday either. Actually, we very rarely rewire ourselves... 02:19:37 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 02:19:48 ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:56 _deepfire: sure, it's this code. Perhaps some inline declaration on a recursive function remaining... 02:20:28 pjb: but software can change itself much more easily. And robots aren't the most dangerous thing - the dangerous thing would be an AGI that starts using humans, hacking into other systems and taking control of them etc. 02:20:44 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 02:20:50 pjb: i had a system that often blew the heap when compiling... i just added dynamic space at first, until i found the problem months later :) 02:20:54 Indeed. An AI living in the Internet (in the noosphere) could be much more alien. 02:21:26 drewc: I tried that, without success. But that was before removing the inline declaration. I'll try again. 02:21:32 pjb: I heard a lot about "Daemon" lately (I still haven't read the book despite buying it) showing how a not so advanced AI could take over 02:22:06 <_deepfire> What's the canonical way to pin a function, so that ld doesn't omit it from the final .so? 02:22:16 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:23:02 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:23:14 Take over what? 02:23:17 pjb: a beautiful example of "unfriendly" AI would be in (gasp!) anime, Macross Plus. Even when you remove the standard element of Macross, that is "singing for mind-control" (^_-) you can still see how dangerous it could be (which is played on in one of the sequels, *30 years* later) 02:23:20 p_l: that remembers me a novel where it wasn't AI but some humans who became superiorly intelligent and had a "war" between the two of them. 02:23:49 I think that not-so-smart AI could produce an extremely dangerous predator. 02:24:05 But it's hard to see how it could manage to take over without a good grasp of economics. 02:24:10 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:22 And without that it doesn't sound like it could scale well. 02:24:34 Zhivago: now imagine a not-so-smart AI equipped with a well-thought plan and designed to use *humans* to act 02:24:52 <_deepfire> I don't think "economics" means anything today -- when High-Frequency Trading rules the world. 02:25:11 Understanding humans sufficiently to control them would require understanding economics. 02:25:18 <_deepfire> I think that the notion that "economics" means anything is a harmful notion. 02:25:20 with, iirc, footholds into many important systems around (especially economic - who cares about governments when you control the money?) 02:25:51 Economics is essentially distributed human coordination. 02:26:25 Sure, but as soon as you start to act in a significant fashion without a grasp of the system you're manipulating you'll end up damaging your control over it. 02:26:31 <_deepfire> Zhivago, how does this couples with GPU-accelerated trading algorithms making hundreds of thousands of transactions per hour? 02:26:45 deepfire: Speed doesn't matter when you lack comprehension. 02:26:51 _deepfire: not sure what that has to do with economics 02:26:52 :D 02:27:03 If the AI is smart enough to understand economics, then sure -- it wouldn't have a problem with being able to take over. 02:27:17 But that sounds pretty advanced to me. 02:28:09 <_deepfire> drewc, New York Stock Exchange has more than 60% high-frequency trading, by volume. 02:28:32 <_deepfire> Maybe even more, I don't remember. 02:28:34 An AI designed to hunt down and kill humans doesn't sound like it would need to be very smart on the other hand, but I don't see that scaling sufficiently to destroy civilization. 02:28:36 At the instant the AI understands economics, does that change the dynamics and consequently invalidate its understanding? 02:28:43 _deepfire: i know, i've worked in the industry.. you are mistaking the trees for the forest i think. 02:28:53 tmh: An understanding of economics includes an understanding how how it changes. 02:29:09 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:29:22 Zhivago: Then it won't understand it. 02:29:54 It only needs to be able to predict it to a useful, not perfect extent. 02:30:01 Humans can do it, so I don't see the problem. 02:30:02 The question is how long would the infrastructure necessary for an AI (electricity, network) last without hi-tech human operators. 02:30:06 an understanding of economics precludes understanding economics? 02:30:28 pjb: Given economic control it would have hi-tech human operators. :) 02:30:35 Most computer made today break after 5 to 10 years (eg. because of the chemical condenser). 02:30:42 Zhivago: a berserker AI is IMHO in our current capability 02:30:52 <_deepfire> Come on, people, world economies are _manipulated_ on _massive_ scale -- wtf the "understanding" part comes from, when you cannot take into account massive and very real interventions? 02:30:56 p_l: Then it won't scale and there's not much to worry about. 02:31:10 Nuclear powerplants would run perhaps six months alone. Other powerplants much less. 02:31:12 Zhivago: berserkers are not meant to scale that way :D 02:31:13 deepfire: We're talking about "taking over". 02:31:31 the people control the means of production.... unite comrades against the evil capitalist machines! 02:31:45 Zhivago: right. I mean for the AI that would want to kill humans. It would have first to develop enough to actually _replace_ us. 02:32:20 p_l: Sure. So we're out of the "not very advanced league". 02:32:52 Think about all the humans over time that have wanted to kill humans and look, we're still here! 02:32:54 pjb: I guess we could see that coming. "Look, it's walking! Pull the plug!" 02:32:55 _deepfire: it is only by our own stupidity that we fail to realize that the numbers on the screen our elected officials tell us are our livelyhood has little to do with the econimic realities we face. 02:33:03 pjb: so it should be able to replicate 02:33:05 pjb: now imagine one that doesn't want to kill humans, but to cause certain events and changes 02:33:17 p_l: Then you're back to understanding economics. 02:33:28 just imagine one that wants to kill humans, and doesn't want to survive 02:33:42 <_deepfire> drewc, how can you say that in the face of presence of mainstream media? 02:33:47 koollman: Then you're back to "doesn't scale". 02:33:52 And in a way, we already have artificial entities immersed in our world: corporations themselves. And they DO understand economics. 02:33:58 <_deepfire> drewc, everything is made to keep the status quo 02:33:59 AI can't destroy the economy -- the principles of economics apply to AIs as well as to any agent that has to interact with others 02:34:00 koollman: that's what a berserker would do - attack the target, and the job is done. 02:34:02 pjb: No they don't 02:34:02 or one that doesn't 'want' anything. just acts in ways that will kill humans, as a side effect 02:34:06 koollman: environmentalist? 02:34:11 tmh: big ones do. 02:34:13 stassats: not necessarily. 02:34:13 tmh: agreed. 02:34:15 Sure. And they're not "not very advanced AIs". They're constructed of very advanced AIs. 02:34:23 koollman: that's what i imagined 02:34:32 _deepfire: if you pay attention to it, i suppose. 02:34:32 AIs may *displace* a lot of activity away from humans - and still have to deal with each other 02:34:38 Zhivago: yes, in a way it's 1+1<2 with the corporations. 02:34:39 btw, I heard that a corporation applied for a place in senate in USA :P 02:34:45 _deepfire: but that is your own fault again, innit? 02:34:48 pjb: Sure. 02:34:56 _deepfire: (you not meaning you personally of course) 02:35:05 <_deepfire> drewc, it's a trick -- make people work hard, so they don't have time to look around, /and/ make all easily accessible information sources sing in a unison 02:35:29 _deepfire: yes, but now that you are aware it's a trick, what are you doing about it? 02:35:31 <_deepfire> drewc, in fact, the harder the people have to work, the less time they have to look around 02:35:38 you don't have to assume an AI is 'humanly intelligent'. or even 'really intelligent', or similar to a live organism. A complex system handling more and more complex things, can destroy us all. just as a side effect, with no sentience or anything like it 02:35:46 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:36:14 koollman: In that case, I vote for orbital dynamics or biomechanics as our doomsday scenario. 02:36:24 koollman: Only if it either (a) destroys the whole environment that supports us, or (b) can understand us sufficiently to control us, or (c) possesses magical abilities to not require resources. 02:36:32 _deepfire: Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli told us all about that trick centuries ago 02:36:33 Sorry, not biomechanics, biology, I'm tired. 02:36:36 koollman: is this trollbait for a typed-vs-untyped/test-do-not-test debate? 02:36:49 koollman: That logic ends up suggesting wiping out every person on earth in order to prevent the extinction of the human race. 02:36:50 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:36:51 gwynddyllyd: oh! now it is ! :) 02:36:51 koollman, said complex system doesn't need electronic agents, either. human societies have self-destroyed in the past 02:37:06 <_deepfire> drewc, I know, I've read Il Principe. 02:37:33 _deepfire: so... what has all this got to do with the price of tea in china? 02:37:34 in italian? 02:37:45 Zhivago: there are a lot of other possibilities. 02:37:47 <_deepfire> Fare, no :-) 02:37:54 Removing currency is usually sufficient to destroy cultures that use it. 02:38:12 "Since adopting the leaf as our national currency..." 02:38:19 koollman: Not if we're talking about the AI deciding to do it on its own, rather than being designed to do it, or doing it by accident. 02:38:30 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:38:38 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:38:41 Zhivago, it's a huge setback but you can't remove the black market 02:38:51 Zhivago: ok. I suppose most of the cases I can imagine would be in the 'by accident' case 02:38:57 they aren't less scary ;) 02:39:07 fare: Without currency you end up with your distributed production systems uncoordinated, and drop back to barter. 02:39:21 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:39:23 fare: Look at the dark ages in the british isles after they ran out of roman coin. 02:39:33 Zhivago: It would just mean a temporary setback to barter and then reintroducing (possibly another) currency. 02:39:33 Zhivago: "can understand us sufficiently to control us" <---- oh oh 02:39:36 although hyperinflation of legal tender is a good first approximation. See Zimbabwe recently, the USA soon 02:39:39 fare: They actually dropped back to being less developed than they were before the romans came in. 02:39:56 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:39:58 drewc: That's economics for you :) 02:40:04 Zhivago: :) 02:40:08 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-60-190.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:40:31 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:40:45 Zhivago, not clear that was the dominant factor. the end of participation in a huge free trade zone might be more like it 02:41:13 Zhivago: 'dropped back'... that assumes that the roman way was in fact a step forward, dunnit? 02:41:15 you don't eat or wear coins, anyway 02:41:35 What have the Roman's ever done for us, anyway? 02:42:09 fare: No. Even on a reasonably local scale things like pottery went back to being quite primitive 02:42:13 i just read an interesting paper that claimed a serf worked on average only 100 days out of the year 02:42:34 fare: They were essentially reduced to barter and that doesn't scale well enough to support things like village A specializing in pots any more. 02:42:34 where as me, a freeman, work about 300 02:42:37 drewc: link? 02:42:50 gwynddyllyd: see if i can find it 02:42:55 Zhivago, sure - but once again, lack of currency might be a secondary rather than primary effect 02:43:00 i'll * 02:43:04 drewc: that looks very interesting. 02:43:11 drewc: See, the profit motive does work. 02:43:13 drewc: there was a lot more festive days. 02:43:16 <_deepfire> drewc, uh oh, that's definitely piquing my interest.. 02:43:22 drewc: Justification was, what, number of "holy days" and an estimate of the effort required in various agricultural tasks plus population information for various areas? 02:43:23 fare: I don't think so. Currency is how the distributed coordination system communicates. 02:44:02 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 02:44:39 ISTR reading somewhere that coinage was originally for economic exchange -between- communities, and not within communities. Foreign trade only, essentially. 02:44:40 <_deepfire> Zhivago, it is how this kind of communication is done in our days, but you make it sound as if it is the only way. 02:44:53 Zhivago: I think he means that getting cut out of the empire is the primary cause for 'disconnecting from the distributed coordination system'. 02:44:56 nyef: exactly, did you write the paper? 02:45:03 cause i can't find it. 02:45:11 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:45:25 -!- ktheman [~chatzilla@primary.lifeevents.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 02:45:27 dwynddyllyd: Except that the empire wasn't coordinating at that level. 02:45:38 drewc: No, didn't write it, but there's an awful lot of that sort of stuff in my headspace from reading for some reason. 02:45:52 deepfire: Sure -- there are other solutions, but once you've come to rely on one approach you become vulnerable to its failure. 02:45:55 but yeah, number of holy days mixed with the fact that agriculture is not a full time job with evidence from literature and the equivalent of payroll stubs 02:46:04 nyef: I don't see how it would work between communities... coinage need some authority to enforce it, usually. else it's not seen as useful/reliable 02:46:07 Zhivago: I don't follow. 02:46:08 <_deepfire> Zhivago, that's a factor, absolutely. 02:46:36 gwy: Once you have a currency that you can trust sufficiently in order to plan ahead you can stop growing food and start making pots or whatever. 02:46:38 koollman: not if it's gold. It can be assessed independently. 02:46:45 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:47:03 koollman: Not true, coinage does not need enforcement, only trust that it is redeemable. 02:47:06 gwy: Production can become more specialized and distributed, and it all works out because you have a mechanism by which to communicate into the future how resources will be distributed. 02:47:07 koollman, no need for authority -- need for good assaying technology, and enough rule of law to trust exchanges 02:47:15 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:23 tmh: well, ok, better words. still need that accross communities 02:47:35 gwy: Take away that mechanism and you have to go back to growing your own food, but unfortunately over the last 300 years of specializing in pots you've lost significant skills there. 02:47:37 There's also the religious aspect to the introduction of coinage, but I forget what the details were there. 02:47:52 gwy: Of course, the people specializing in farming now have to make their own shitty pots, too. 02:47:53 so you need some 'bank' in the two communities that would agree on the value of some coins 02:48:02 (which is what the church did, yes) 02:48:18 gwy: If you happen to travel around you can swap pots for food still, but ... it has high overheads. 02:48:20 Zhivago, specialize in pots and keep your coins, if you're cut from the egyptians who exchanged their wheat for your pots, you still starve. 02:48:26 Zhivago: Yes, but if there's no communication with the consumers your coins are worthless. I think the point is that coins disappear as a consequence of their diminished trust. 02:48:32 drewc: btw, that estimation probably didn't think of all the work included for various holy days (preparation etc, especially since there might have been preparatory work needed for the local church and such) 02:49:10 fare: Sure, but you normally have plenty of vendors to choose from in order to avoid that kind of crisis. 02:49:29 p_l: i'm sure that the church had their own servants, and were not welcome to the landlords serfs! 02:49:52 if the commercial routes are closed by waves of invasions and lawlessness, suddenly, you find you have to grow food when you didn't, and you're going to be hungry. 02:49:58 or you have to migrate 02:50:12 p_l: i'm equally sure that making garlands to tie around a maypole is easier than plowing a field :) 02:50:19 fare: Sure, but the commercial route length is determined by your coordination mechanism. 02:50:24 Or die. It's adapt, move or die. 02:50:28 *nyef* migrates to the kitchen to prepare a snack. 02:50:38 Zhivago, except it doesn't depend on just you, but also on other people on the way. 02:50:42 fare: Losing currency drops those commercial routes back to being extremely short. 02:50:58 Zhivago: I really have no background to have a strong opinion on this issue. Papers regarding 'post-currency economies crisis' would be much appreciated, if you know of sources. 02:51:09 Zhivago, and conversely, extremely short routes make coins less valuable than corn. 02:51:31 who's on first 02:51:45 fare: And you still get less efficienct exchange from barter or are limited to dealing with known agents. 02:51:52 fare: All of which are sufficient to produce a dark age. 02:52:57 like, german invasions, the fall of the previous conqueror after he had destroyed previous social structures, the lawlessness in your trade partners, etc., aren't sufficient? 02:53:04 *gwynddyllyd* is thinking his non-native english did a massive display of grammatical mess in his last message. 02:53:09 Here is a short over-view: http://panokroko.wordpress.com/2009/12/26/a-modern-dark-age/ 02:53:16 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 02:53:21 lukego [~lukegorri@119.110.101.218] has joined #lisp 02:53:28 You can find plenty of papers on the subject starting from there. 02:53:38 drewc: only monasteries and big, wealthy churches had servants. Village churches etc. would grab serfs to make village-wide works for some events 02:54:02 gwy: No worse than many Americans. :) 02:54:13 p_l: i could believe it. I can't defend the paper as i can't find it... 02:54:21 so i don't know if it covers that. 02:54:21 <_deepfire> gwynddyllyd, are you Welsh? 02:54:37 drewc: even the everyday errand boy would be usually a boy from the village, except "employed" on full-time basis 02:55:48 a typical village church might have only two people working there - the priest and some servant (maybe two). And the priest wasn't the one doing manual work, at least not usually 02:55:51 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 02:56:00 _deepfire: no! i don't think that would be a valid welsh name, although it might look like it. 02:56:17 (it all depends on where exactly you're looking - there were big differences between various countries) 02:56:29 <_deepfire> gwynddyllyd, I see, I looked and your name sounds vaguely Russian :-) 02:56:37 p_l: Well, the priest had the important job of deciding when to ring the bells. :) 02:56:44 _deepfire: i'm brazilian, and gaucho if you want to be picky. 02:56:53 p_l: A much shorter range coordination mechanism. 02:57:19 <_deepfire> gwynddyllyd, whoops :-) 02:57:28 KatrinaTheLamia [~root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:29 In some places they paid the priests off to adjust the length of the working day by adjusting time. 02:57:34 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-252.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: time for bed. nighty night] 02:57:41 found it! http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html 02:58:07 well, i follows something from there.. 02:58:12 followed* 02:58:14 Zhivago: I think his job was keeping some measure of moral decency through fear. 02:58:42 gwy: Nah. Managing time was more significant than that. 02:59:03 gwy: Since people agreed to work based on the church's clock. 02:59:42 and some of my numbers were off... 120 days a year in the 14th century 03:00:11 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@204.52.135.62] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:00:20 drewc, short days for the master doesn't mean they didn't have to spend time tending their gardens, huts, etc. 03:01:07 Fare: true... but personally, when i tend my gardens, mend my boats, fix my meals, i don't mind it all that much 03:01:30 in fact, if i could do little but, i'd be a happy man. 03:01:36 drewc: Without a reliable way to communicate into the future there is not much point in overwork for investment's sake. 03:01:37 :D 03:01:56 Zhivago, besides, your friend's rant doesn't seem informed by the fact that AGW is a scam. 03:02:13 drewc: If this sounds like the dark ages, i'm applying right now. 03:02:21 whatever causes an economic breakdown (if anything does) won't be AGW. 03:02:33 drop the currencies! i want to tend my garden! 03:02:41 gwynddyllyd, you have a garden? 03:02:42 Fare: What does AGW have to do with anything? 03:02:56 gwynddyllyd: we don't have to wait for the rest of the word to come around... just act. 03:03:06 Fare: it was a figure of speech... sadly. 03:03:18 the post you linked to used that as the scarecrow that will cause economic collapse 03:03:24 Fare: Where? 03:04:00 Ah, objdump! Blessed objdump --disassemble! Now to (inst word) a couple of times instead of defining the two instructions I need and I'm done with this file! 03:04:04 http://panokroko.wordpress.com/2009/12/26/a-modern-dark-age/ 03:04:11 Fare: Where in there does it do that? 03:04:16 gwynddyllyd: the reality of the situation is that it costs about $350CAD to purchase a years supply of food, and a tarp is $25. anything after that is gravy ;) 03:04:22 drewc: I still have to buy a house with a garden and manage to somehow keep a server within this house - preferably connected to the internet. 03:05:03 "If we fail to reach a comprehensive agreement and institute the appropriate science based CO2 reduction within our world economy in the next fully functioning decade  thats what we will get for our pains." 03:05:12 yadda yadda. 03:05:38 fare: Irrelevant. 03:05:51 gwynddyllyd: my garden is on a island that is otherwise a bird sanctuary, and on the dock in containers... no house required :) 03:06:13 drewc: 350 CAD? What do you eat? I can't buy a year's worth of manure with this. 03:06:14 fare: It would be ad hominem to use that to attack the argument. 03:06:40 gwynddyllyd: -Buy- manure? WTF? You produce manure naturally! 03:06:42 I'm just saying that I don't see that as a future danger. 03:06:44 drewc: do you live in vancouver island? 03:06:48 Fare: I don't care. 03:07:12 nyef: only if you have cattle or shit on your garden! (sorry for the foul language) 03:07:30 gwynddyllyd: see the humanure handbook 03:07:33 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:39 you shit in your drinking water! 03:07:44 the whole world simultaneously losing the notion of currency at the same time is quite unlikely. 03:07:51 drewc, uh??? 03:07:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:07:56 gwynddyllyd: Option B works, given a dry toilet, a decent supply of cellulose, and a year or so of composting time. 03:07:56 drewc: The main thing is to avoid other people shitting in it. 03:08:30 fare: Currency is only as valuable as the trust placed on it. 03:08:34 Fare: we spend millions of dollars on chemical fertilizers while we shit in clean water that we treat with more chemicals... 03:08:51 drewc: just found it online. this really interests me. i do plan on off-the-grid living in a decade or so. 03:09:09 fare: Losing trust in currency seems to have happened in modern times, with untoward effects. 03:09:22 fare: In any case, that's not what we're talking about. 03:09:23 the nutrients don't actually _go_ anywhere... if we just composted our shit and pissed on our crops.... we reclaim it. 03:09:33 oh, ok. I misread your thing as humanure recommending we do that, whereas it recommends we stop doing it. 03:09:34 rmathews [~rm@122.165.6.245] has joined #lisp 03:09:45 Fare: oh lords no :) 03:10:10 humanure and pee-ponics! 03:10:12 Zhivago, yes, destroying currency can happen, particularly when government hyperinflates legal tender. 03:10:34 Or deflates, or ... :) 03:10:47 Anyhow, that's all beside the point. 03:10:48 or otherwise manipulates it 03:11:09 thing is, people are mobile to a point. 03:11:14 gwynddyllyd: as for food, you buy a giant bag of corn, a giant bag of winter wheat berries, a giant bag of corn, soy, etc, and a lot of vegetables seeds. you sprout all these. 03:11:23 nutjobs get power in detroit? people leave detroit. 03:11:37 gwynddyllyd: dried milk is cheap too, from which you can make cheese and yoghurt etc 03:11:59 gwynddyllyd: you don't go to the health-food store... you go to the feedstore ;) 03:12:07 Fare: it was inspiring to see people leaving the US in droves when Bush usurped power. 03:12:13 really heart-warming. 03:12:17 I hear that pigs are good ways to recycle and store food. :) 03:12:27 Just remember to get -un-messed-about-with- feed grains. 03:12:33 sykopomp, Bush wasn't that much worse than what followed 03:12:33 Zhivago: that they are, and chickens and goats :) 03:12:34 Zhivago: We use chickens for that here. 03:12:52 Fare: no, since Bush is what followed Bush, and then came the Tea party nutjobs. 03:12:58 Hmm, I didn't think that chickens were omnivorous. 03:12:59 so no, not much worse at all. About the same. 03:13:01 The advantage to goats, of course, is the possibility of milk. 03:13:16 drewc: Yes, but you need a place to grow these. That's the main issue. I'm currently living in a big city in Brasil, where this is not a (cheap) option. 03:13:21 Zhivago: totally, they feed factory farmed chickens with chickens 03:13:22 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:13:40 Zhivago: They eat greens, they eat grains, they eat meat, they eat gravel, they eat eggshells, if you aren't careful they'll eat raw eggs... 03:13:51 drewc: of course i could move, but you need a place to go first, right? 03:13:52 unless you plan for an economic collapse soon, you might want to enjoy division of labor while it exists. 03:13:54 gwynddyllyd: container growing... especially in the city 03:14:07 drewc: container growing? 03:14:28 gwynddyllyd: grow in buckets, baskets, bins 03:14:41 self watering containers! 03:14:41 have you tried soil-less growing? 03:15:22 drewc: i never thought i'd have this kind of conversation at #lisp. i might just do the container growing thing! 03:15:26 Fare: this year i'm trying an aquaponic setup 03:15:41 Zhivago: chickens naturally eats just about anything they find. worms, grass, insects, whatever they think is edible (and they are pretty stupid about it) 03:15:49 what's the difference between aquaponic and hydroponic? 03:16:08 Fare: which is hydroponics mixed with aquaculture... you grow plans in water + nutrients... those nutrients come from fish that live in the water 03:16:17 Fare: one is latin the other greek? 03:16:22 ... Why is it that Config.x86_64-linux is the -only- x86-64 config file to use an underscore? 03:16:28 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:16:35 drewc, oh, the fish thing, yes I heard of it. 03:16:38 Fare: aquaponics = aquaculture + hydroponics 03:16:44 Ah, damnit. Still need bloody ldso-stubs. 03:16:49 nyef: x8664? 03:16:55 pjb: x86-64. 03:17:05 Just -one- platform uses x86_64 instead. 03:17:06 i'm going to use locally caught crayfish, as we go get those anyway for eatin ;) 03:17:08 nyef, because that's what uname -m returns? 03:17:09 nyef: #\- is used as a separator from the OS. 03:17:24 *nyef* is skeptical. 03:18:03 cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 03:18:12 are crayfish superfast, nitrogen-cooled fish? 03:18:47 They are like little lobsters. 03:18:48 massively parallel freshwater lobster 03:19:21 imo, they taste better than lobster, and i was born in Halifax, NS. 03:19:32 lobster taste something? 03:19:33 l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 03:19:52 Mainly the bottom of the sea. 03:20:36 s/taste better/they have a more subtle buttery flavour/ 03:20:51 s/they they/they 03:21:51 ... And here I thought the only way to make lobster edible was to drench it in melted butter -anyway-... 03:22:16 nyef: chowder man, it's all about chowder 03:22:44 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:56 -!- gigamonkey is now known as cons 03:23:02 -!- cons is now known as gigamonkey 03:23:15 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 03:23:57 Of course, there was this -one- memorable time that involved lobster sushi... with the lobster head on the plate still waving its various bits at us while we ate the meat of the back half... 03:24:46 nyef: now THAT is fresh fish! 03:24:47 nyef: psychological cruelty? 03:25:01 call peta! 03:25:04 -!- slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:25:04 pjb: Only to the squeamish amongst us. 03:25:11 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:25:29 Did you secure signed consent from the lobster first? 03:25:30 *gwynddyllyd* is feeling squeamish. 03:25:53 The best thing about prawns was learning that you could eat the shells. 03:26:19 slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:52 save the shells for stock... bisque man, bisque! 03:27:47 pjb: no need to. just take a pic of it clamping your hands and call it a handshake in courts. 03:28:47 :-) 03:29:43 ... Oops. Missed a trick. 03:30:04 Oh well, no-x86oid-assem.S should build on x86-64 linux, at least. 03:30:18 I can clean up the other configs and test the x86 build tomorrow. 03:33:50 necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:00 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:35:55 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Quit: blackened`] 03:37:10 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:48 ironChicken [~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 03:42:00 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:43:56 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:44:06 evoli [~yuhsin@rrdhcp-68-172.redrover.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 03:44:16 -!- evoli [~yuhsin@rrdhcp-68-172.redrover.cornell.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 03:45:47 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 03:49:46 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:53:28 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:54:37 nyef: what are you up to these days? 03:54:46 and evening everyone 03:56:22 slyrus: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/no-x86oid-assem.S is what I've been hacking most recently. 03:56:31 Before that was the whole wider-fixnums thing. 03:57:24 Evening slyrus. 03:57:31 this solves the whole att vs. intel syntax thing, I spose? 03:57:35 hey gigamonkey 03:57:37 Does anyone have any wish list items for minion? 03:57:49 I'm also thinking about rewrite-rules, compilers, the application-deployment story of common lisp, heuristic intelligence, and natural language processing... 03:58:19 slyrus: Pretty much. It also stomps on any notion of "let's use NASM!" 03:58:28 cool 03:59:11 As the only .S file used on my x86-64 linux now is ldso-stubs.S, and that's auto-generated, and thus can be generated differently as needed. 03:59:43 -!- Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2009122116]] 04:00:32 nyef: one could just as easily generate ldso-stubs.lisp, no? 04:00:54 gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:55 No, as it needs to be processed by the target linker, not by genesis. 04:01:29 nyef: could the target linker take in an object file? :D 04:01:40 slyrus: have you seen my new toy? 04:01:43 nyef: ah, I see 04:01:43 gigamonkey: The ability to notice that it's been disconnected from the server and automatically reconnect, and (more lisppaste than anything) either a faster or a more verbose startup sequence. 04:01:47 gigamonkey: no 04:01:56 gigabot: introduce yourself to slyrus 04:01:56 Hello slyrus, I'm gigabot. 04:02:12 p_l: Yes. But that's more effort than just spitting out a .S file. 04:02:40 nyef: that sounds like something maybe I could add to cl-irc and then all the bots could take advantage of it. 04:03:12 gigamonkey: The problem is that you then have to define policies for auto-reconnect, etc. 04:03:24 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:33 I am under the impression that the raw bits are already there, just not hooked up in the case of minion et al. 04:03:40 nyef: I see. 04:04:02 I assume it's just a matter of round tuits? 04:04:19 Theoretically, yes. 04:04:53 But it's like anything else, there are more important things to spend the round tuits on. 04:04:59 gigabot: please give me $40,000,000 04:05:00 Whoops, I don't quite get you. 04:05:05 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:05:07 oh well, it was worth a try 04:05:40 gigabot: how do I find the name of a package? 04:05:40 There is a Common Lisp function named PACKAGE-NAME. Maybe that does what you want. 04:05:46 gigabot: what is it that you do? 04:05:46 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 04:05:52 gigabot: is scheme a lisp? 04:05:53 For some values of Lisp. 04:05:54 gigabot: is scheme a lisp? 04:05:54 On alternate Thursdays. 04:05:55 gigabot: how do I get Lisp's implementation version? 04:05:55 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 04:06:15 gigabot: How do I find out what the name of a package is? 04:06:15 Sorry, no idea. 04:06:24 gigabot: how do I get the version of a implementation? 04:06:24 Sorry, no idea. 04:06:29 Oh well. 04:06:40 gigabot: how do i become a wizard? 04:06:41 Sorry, no idea. 04:06:57 -!- gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:06:59 buy a wizard hat! 04:07:40 I moved gigabot over to #gigabot. If anyone wants to play with him, it helps me expand his brain. 04:07:52 gigamonkey: Really, though, this seems like an information-retrieval problem more than a chatbot problem. 04:08:27 nyef: well, I suppose it depends which problem you're trying to solve. ;-) 04:08:35 That's true. 04:08:50 Dorian [~Dorian@129.10.230.101] has joined #lisp 04:09:13 Adlai: Ur not here right? 04:09:59 Or you can look at it as a UI problem--what AIML is sort of good at is allowing lots of variant inputs to get translated into questions the bot understands. Which makes it easier to get at what you want. 04:10:07 Phoodus: u here? 04:10:59 Ralith: round 3 :)? 04:11:11 cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 04:12:02 fatblueduck: round 4? lol 04:12:27 Dorian: hello! 04:12:38 fatblueduck: I emailed you the anwser 04:12:47 I never got it 04:12:53 fatblueduck: i just emailed it to u 2 seconds ago 04:13:00 oh heh thanks 04:13:05 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:13:05 fatblueduck: my teacher explained it really well actually, it makes me sad :( 04:13:36 fatblueduck: Phoodus, actually could have solved it, because he had the right idea 04:13:45 What are the optimal diff parameters for sending a patch to a mailing list? The one that puts + and - on things. 04:13:53 diff -u 04:14:41 Dorian, I solved it using other functions and then replacing those with let/cons/car combinations 04:15:05 I couldn't find a replacement for (reverse list) 04:15:07 well the let just makes it readable. it is surprisingly only 3 lines.. 04:15:17 :S 04:15:23 that's really cool 04:15:24 2 without real style. lol.. 04:15:40 and i think if i remember right, it runs more efficently then with append 04:15:46 (i couldbe wrong) 04:16:13 Dorian: do you feel 'enlightenment'? 04:16:36 fatblueduck: no. rofl 04:16:45 fatblueduck: but he showed me a new way to look at lists tho. 04:16:49 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 04:16:49 _deepfire: don't declare it static. 04:17:08 never mind. Backlog (: 04:17:20 PuffTheMagic_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 04:17:27 -!- PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:49 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 04:19:30 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:53 fatblueduck: if ur interested we are making SAT problem solvers this week 04:20:11 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 04:20:30 fatblueduck: which are pretty sweet. because they can tell if a theorem is valid very quickly (theoretically) 04:21:32 Can they tell you how to spell "you're"? 04:22:02 Dorian: I'm interested, however, I wouldn't want to hassle you with task of sending me material 04:22:19 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 04:22:35 Zhivago: I apologize. I will put a stick up my butt just for you :) 04:22:37 oh.. i thought he was talking about ancient Sumeria! 04:23:21 hahaha 04:23:21 Dorian: paste link? 04:23:35 fatblueduck: u say it as if it is hard 04:23:42 Ralith: to the reverse code? 04:23:45 yeah 04:23:52 lisppaste: url 04:23:52 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 04:24:37 Dorian: Is it an 'extension' course? ... 04:25:51 Dorian pasted "Reverse w/o append" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94334 04:26:03 dorian: If that's how you do it in your culture, by all means. 04:26:18 fatblueduck: extension course? 04:26:33 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8EC7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:26:35 QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:27:38 benny [~benny@i577A7277.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:27:45 it's politically correct for college-level 'home-school' 04:28:16 you interact with the professor through email 04:28:41 So... like the open university? 04:28:53 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:11 Dorian: (i) learn about indentation (ii) try using an accumulator 04:29:25 fatblueduck: no i do not haha. its all in class 04:29:43 adhet: that was not the assignment, and yes i do indent. it just copied and pasted badly. 04:30:05 haha people at my school wanted to get into the 'extension' version of pc classes like 'Women in Politics and Society' 04:30:38 -!- gwynddyllyd [~yghorkers@201.29.218.151] has quit [Quit: back soon] 04:30:51 which was a good class btw lol 04:30:56 lol 04:31:39 with accumulator it will be already reversed 04:31:53 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:32:25 adeht: the assignment was to do it with only if, cond, car, cdr, rev, and endp 04:32:35 with list as the only arguement 04:32:45 Hurrah for rev. 04:32:51 Dorian: I see 04:33:16 Dorian: you mean cons, not rev? 04:33:26 stassats: and cons 04:33:34 both if and cond :) 04:33:49 Of course, you should have been made to write your own rev. 04:33:52 gah bleh im on the phone. 04:34:00 cond or if* 04:34:01 lolol 04:34:04 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wishrslsmmauayfq] has joined #lisp 04:34:09 also.. endp but car/cdr.. 04:34:13 Why didn't they just limit you to primitives? 04:34:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1] 04:34:37 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:34:45 essentially they did 04:34:45 to lambda 04:34:51 adeht: His class is called 'Women and Lisp in Society', and since lisp indentation is a male-derived creation, he's required to employ a feminine mode of indentation 04:34:56 You don't need both 'if' and 'cond' or 'rev'. 04:35:36 fatblueduck: nonsense, Lyssa P. Hacker invented indentatino 04:36:15 we couldnt use lambda btw 04:36:15 adeht: she was tool of John McCarthy, who is a male 04:36:22 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:51 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:37:05 Dorian: using only lambda is more fun 04:37:16 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:24 stassats: yes, but the class is logic and computation, therefore it would be more fun to use booleans :) 04:37:48 lambda is from the logic department 04:37:58 fatblueduck: So was this a gender equality class or a misandry class 04:38:18 Makoryu: it was total misandry 04:38:25 true  a.b. a 04:38:25 tis is also true, but the class isn't "hey lets learn lambda (which we encountered in scheme last semester)". 04:38:35 The truth is that throughout history women have almost always been more valuable than men. 04:38:41 false  a.b. b 04:38:46 now defined if 04:38:48 Which is why thoughtout history women have often been considered chattel. 04:38:49 define 04:39:15 Makoryu: we had to watch videos explaining how our male-based society uses cinema and music to exploit women and be dumb 04:39:44 Zhivago: I've been saying that for years! 04:39:49 fat: All part of a vast homosexual conspiracy. 04:40:00 QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:40:07 did you get Schopenhauer's On Women as mandatory reading? 04:40:08 drewc, that encoding is not very useful of a dynamically typed language 04:40:28 drewc, for a dynamically typed language, you'll want a self-describing encoding. 04:40:34 adeht: no 04:40:37 Speaking of typing 04:41:00 fatblueduck: understandably :) 04:41:11 fare: Why is that important for dynamically typed, rather than metacircular? 04:41:16 drewc is, apparently, busy devising if 04:41:20 Fare: it's not a language, it's a calculus :) 04:41:23 so maybe you can use church datastructures as underlying building blocks, but you'll want to build something on top of them 04:41:23 Would anyone disagree that (in the context of CL at least) a "dynamically typed program" is one that doesn't make use of CL's compile-time type specialization features? 04:41:38 makoryu: No. 04:41:44 stassats: sorry, was i supposed to do it? 04:41:46 if? 04:41:46 Sorry, I would disagree. 04:42:14 fatblueduck: btw, we use ACL2 in class, so I don't think it will be a problem for u to use lisp for the next challenge problem 04:42:15 drewc: no, but what's the value of true or false if you don't have if 04:42:16 Zhivago, you can probably have metacircular with a high degree of static typing, so that your booleans don't need a dynamic type discrimination. 04:42:20 and  m.n. m n m or  m.n. m m n 04:42:24 stassats: ^ 04:42:50 fare: So, why do dynamically typed languages want self-describing encodings? 04:42:51 das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:03 Zhivago: The other definition I can think of is "a program that avoids type-specific operations wherever possible, even to the point of going out of its own way to be overly generic" 04:43:11 Zhivago, that's pretty much the definition, isn't it? 04:43:17 Zhivago: for humans to read? 04:43:41 Zhivago, you can mix and match numbers, booleans, cons cells, etc., and each object can be identified. 04:44:31 makoryu: A statically typed language is one in which no type introspection is required to run. 04:45:00 makoryu: Since the types cannot change while running (due to being static). 04:45:28 types cannot change? huh 04:45:30 Zhivago: I see where you're going with this. 04:45:32 makoryu: You don't need declarations to achieve this. 04:45:43 adhet: The types of things. 04:45:43 And that way of defining it is clearer and more rigorous 04:45:52 (Than what I said, I mean) 04:46:02 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:46:15 types have changed! your cons cells are now strings, and strings are booleans. Please update your continuations accordingly. 04:46:18 makoryu: If you can redefine functions then you can change their type dynamically, which is a problem for your scenario. 04:47:45 Hmm, it didn't occur to me to take self-modifying code into account when wording my first definition 04:48:02 Zhivago: I am impressed with your choice of words and sentence structures. Do you try really really hard :)? 04:48:41 dorian: Not very hard. 04:49:07 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:49:12 dorian: I think it's just a matter of practice. 04:49:16 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-235-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:58 Zhivago: tis is true, but I feel language should define someone not restrict someone. 04:50:13 Dorian: Without restriction you have no definition. 04:50:39 Zhivago: There will always be termination with coercion, therefore there is no need for restriction 04:51:01 Dorian: What? 04:51:50 If you were not restricted in space you would have no position. 04:52:29 but i have speed! 04:52:33 First off I am not really saying that we aren't restricted in some ways, since we are haha 04:52:49 i am not haha 04:52:54 haha 04:52:55 Dorian: The point is that all of our capabilities come directly from restrictions. 04:53:03 rather velocity 04:53:22 stassats: inertia 04:53:40 drewc: newton's first law = win 04:53:45 -!- lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-238-042.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:53:49 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.10.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:54:02 Well why not break them Zhivago? 04:54:13 Why side with society? 04:54:14 cmm [~cmm@109.64.10.30] has joined #lisp 04:54:22 whoosh 04:54:26 Dorian: You are babbling. Please be quiet. 04:54:31 ouch. 04:54:35 that was kind of mean :( 04:54:43 but true 04:54:52 unfortunately yes :( 04:54:52 this reminds me of some Simpsons trivium about Homer and natural laws 04:55:27 I just love how u look down on people Zhivago. it is very interesting and noble of you 04:55:35 first time I see singular for trivia. 04:56:02 Dorian: Please learn how to spell "you". 04:56:12 Trivium? That's rhetoric, some amount of math, and something else, isn't it? 04:56:13 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:56:30 Or was the math of the quadrivium? 04:56:37 does defun not take vectors as variables? 04:56:48 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:56:48 There you go again. Rather then actually read the sentence you pick at it. 04:56:56 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 04:57:10 bjorkintosh: your question doesn't make any sense to me 04:57:26 Dorian: It was the only part worth responding to. 04:57:38 well, i have (setf a '#(1.5 2.3)) 04:57:58 and i have a lengthvec function i wanted to apply it to... 04:58:17 bjorkintosh: You can COERCE a vector to a list. 04:58:17 ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 04:58:23 APPLY only works on lists 04:58:30 Well I am glad your epeen grows. I come here seeking help and knowledge, and I end up with you. 04:58:35 oh i shouldn't use the term so loosely. 04:58:42 yayaya knowledge in spelling blah blah blah 04:58:44 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 04:59:03 bjorkintosh: note that #() is already quoted 04:59:07 Dorian [~Dorian@129.10.230.101] has joined #lisp 04:59:10 note that it'd cause any troubles 04:59:16 s/note/not/ 04:59:29 this is what i wanted to do: (defun lengthvec (x) (sqrt (+ (square (aref x 0) + (square (aref x 1))))) etc. 04:59:36 Dorian: Please pretend to be an intelligent human being. 05:00:02 -!- DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-61-202.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:00:09 bjorkintosh: that doesn't look like lisp 05:00:11 however, (lengthvec a) doesn't like being called with two arguments. and i didn't see anything immediately obvious in the steele book about it. 05:00:21 i translated it from the ML :) 05:00:45 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:00:53 you have mixed infix and prefix 05:00:58 Dorian: proper spelling helps other understand you. The same with being coherent. Incoherence and babbling are fine, but only in certain cases. 05:01:01 typo. 05:01:08 but that's not what it's complaining about. 05:01:16 -!- Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:01:25 invalid number of arguments: 2 05:01:27 is what it tells me. 05:01:32 bjorkintosh: why do you pass it two arguments? 05:01:32 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:37 so, why do you call it with two arguments? 05:01:55 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:56 i just give it the array, a. 05:02:55 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 05:03:06 are you sure that's lengthvec which is complaining? 05:03:17 and not a function called by lengthvec 05:03:48 you might be right! 05:04:09 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:04:23 you should read the compiler message 05:04:43 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:04:43 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:04:56 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 05:05:09 thanks for the headsd up, stassats. 05:05:16 i was missing a '(' 05:05:20 watch your backtrace 05:05:50 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:06:11 Zhivago: Sorry for the trouble bro. 05:06:16 so far, i must say whoever suggested a dual ML/lisp session in different windows, is brilliant! 05:06:24 it's making this so much fun. 05:06:34 -!- l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Quit: bleh] 05:06:44 bjorkintosh, ever used POP-11 ? 05:06:50 what the who is that? 05:06:53 is that a computer? 05:07:11 Fare: poplog ftw! 05:07:17 An old model of computer from the late 60s or early 70s 05:07:22 it's a multilanguage environment. POP-11, PROLOG, COMMON LISP, ML, etc. 05:07:23 ah it's a language. 05:07:27 bjorkintosh: poplog, it combines CL, ML and PROLOG 05:07:27 bjorkintosh: a programming language + virtual machine?, which also includes COMMON LISP 05:07:27 Oh whoops 05:07:30 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:07:33 I read that O as a D 05:07:37 what Fare said 05:07:39 Makoryu: get better font? :) 05:07:47 is it still around or used, fare? 05:07:48 plus a Forth-like virtual machine 05:07:55 and another virtual machine underneath 05:08:04 bjorkintosh, it was a few years ago 05:08:09 made opensource 05:08:19 bjorkintosh: it's definitely still available, but I'm not sure about used - it seems to be obscure in terms of people knowing about it 05:08:21 I think its CL is CLtL1 only, or some such, though 05:08:40 cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 05:08:42 and its ML might not be SML either. 05:08:45 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.203] has joined #lisp 05:08:55 and its PROLOG might not be up to the latest standards. 05:09:07 -!- Dorian [~Dorian@129.10.230.101] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:09:36 Fare: i remember reading somewhere that someone had updated the CL 05:09:45 Got a strange slime issue, using latest CVS with sbcl 1.0.34. (progn (make-package :foo) (make-package :foo)) should signal a correctable error. Slime (at least for me and one other person) just loses the connection (not possible to send more input). But! If you do (handler-case (make-package :foo) (error (condition) (error condition))) for the second make-package I get the result that I expect (a debugger backtrace). 05:09:51 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:10:04 drewc, nice! 05:10:13 i have two buffers side by side up in emacs: one running slime, the other running sml. so i'm switching back and forth writing the same functions in either window from the tutorial i'm using. 05:10:22 I guess... ideas where I should look ;) 05:10:25 it's so much fun i might stay home from work tomorrow. 05:10:28 nixeagle: that's a bug in sbcl 05:10:38 nixeagle: look in your *inferior-lisp* buffer 05:10:46 err, or listen to stassats 05:10:47 stassats: nope, it works in sbcl just fine (do sbcl --no-userinit and repeat it) 05:10:49 when somebody will fix it? i'm tired of telling people about it already 05:11:00 nixeagle: believe me 05:11:04 stassats: oh ^-^ 05:11:34 bjorkintosh: throw scheme and haskell in the mix and you're set :) 05:11:44 stassats: how come its sbcl's side ^-^, doing the same thing in sbcl with no slime lead me to think slime is at fault. 05:11:48 haskell... *shudder* 05:11:55 scheme perhaps. 05:11:59 nixeagle: slime exposes it 05:12:03 when i start reading the little schemer again. 05:12:09 haskell is my new favorite toy! 05:12:20 i can't for the life of me, interact with it in anyway. 05:12:22 *Makoryu* crunches on some popcorn 05:12:29 it seems neither to like my tabs nor my spaces 05:12:40 i have to admit that i haven't done anything but monads and parsers, but it's been fun 05:12:51 Isn't Haskell just another static language, with nothing like the raw power that Lisp gives you? 05:13:07 stassats: I'm curious, could you show me some more detail ^-^. 05:13:14 Makoryu: are you joking or trolling? 05:13:27 drewc: Can't it be both? <.< 05:13:37 I'm joking :p 05:13:47 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:13:48 nixeagle: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/511072 05:13:48 Makoryu: no, that would still be trolling :) 05:14:22 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 05:15:03 perhaps i might consider haskell after i get far enough into the ML/lisp session. 05:15:12 stassats: ooh should I toss the "test case" that I just did? (eg how handling and just tossing the error again seems to work?) Or would that not be useful? 05:15:28 stassats: thanks for this too, I was digging in slime trying to find the bug ^-^ 05:15:48 nixeagle: test-case independent from slime? 05:16:06 ooh no, sadly not. 05:16:13 basically, it fails whenever is signalled while holding a package lock 05:16:13 as I said I thought it was slime's fault 05:16:36 and user code is run in slime to handle this error, causing a deadlock 05:16:50 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:16:54 whenever error is signalled 05:17:40 stassats: but when I handled the error myself and rethrew it allowed sbcl to release that lock, and slime could catch the error afterwards, correct? 05:18:11 how did you handle it yourself? 05:18:39 (progn (make-package :foo) (handler-case (make-package :foo) (error (condition) (error condition)))) 05:18:50 stassats: that handles correctly, eg no deadlock 05:19:07 in handler-case stack is unwounded already 05:19:41 unicode [~user@95.214.93.22] has joined #lisp 05:19:41 so it does reach slime error processing facilities when lock is not held anymore 05:19:46 so that lock got released. 05:20:35 stassats: very interesting and that makes sense even if I don't have a clue how to fix the sbcl side myself. 05:22:34 stassats: I'm guessing because slime is on another thread... 05:23:41 error handling is happening in the same thread 05:23:50 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:24:21 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:24:53 -!- Lycurgus [~Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:25:11 -!- davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:31:15 wedgeV [~wedge@adsl-69-232-231-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:01 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:15 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:37 DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-61-202.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:57 cantor [~quassel@129.123.253.168] has joined #lisp 05:33:09 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 05:33:15 -!- cantor [~quassel@129.123.253.168] has quit [Client Quit] 05:35:13 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:01 cantor [~quassel@129.123.253.168] has joined #lisp 05:36:10 -!- cantor [~quassel@129.123.253.168] has left #lisp 05:38:43 arthurschopenhau [~quassel@129.123.253.168] has joined #lisp 05:39:06 Hello I need help with creating executables with SBCL 05:39:38 what problems do you have? 05:39:39 arthurschopenhau: the function to use is sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 05:40:00 -!- ceineke_ is now known as sledge 05:40:08 -!- sledge [~chris@24.235.36.231] has quit [Changing host] 05:40:08 sledge [~chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 05:40:15 arthurschopenhau, you use cl-launch, and it's no more SBCL-specific :) 05:40:19 -!- slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:40:41 Okay I tried hours on the internet, no hope, so what is the simplest example for that sb-ext:save-lisp 05:41:07 Fare: I was hoping to do it without using CL-LAUNCH 05:41:09 and die! 05:41:22 Yeah tried that and screwed it up 05:41:24 arthurschopenhau, it's cl-launch -i '(format t "hello world~%")' -o hello -d ! 05:41:41 what screwed up with cl-launch? 05:41:42 hello Arthur, what is your opinion On Women? 05:41:58 (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "foo" :executable t) 05:41:59 No I didn't try CL-launch 05:42:01 (save-lisp-and-die "my.core") 05:42:20 oh, we want an executable 05:42:22 arthurschopenhau, let's have an eristic argument! 05:42:33 well what stassats said 05:43:15 Fare I don't have time tonight, but we can talk tomorrow about stuff 05:43:33 Right now I gotta finish this executable thing 05:43:53 Okay here is what I did 05:44:12 I wrote a canonical factorial program in lisp 05:44:17 Went to shell 05:44:20 typed in 05:44:34 $sbcl --script factorial.lisp 05:44:40 it printed the value 05:45:03 now where do I add sb-ext:die stuff 05:45:40 you don't add it, you run it in the repl 05:46:06 sbcl --load factorial.lisp --eval '(sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "fact" :executable t)' 05:46:22 drewc, that creates an image that you must invoke with --eval, etc. 05:46:29 at the end of your "script" you can have (sb-ext:quit) 05:46:42 okay let me try that, one sec 05:46:44 on the other hand, if you use cl-launch it will do what you want at startup 05:47:17 Fare: true, add :toplevel (lambda () ....) 05:47:20 Okay, let me try this and will install cl-launch and go from there 05:47:59 cl-launch -f factorial.lisp -i '(format t "~D~%" (fact (parse-integer (first cl-launch:*arguments*)))))' -o fact -d ! 05:48:56 Okay one sec I'll tell you what happened 05:49:35 and with cl-launch, you can afterwards benchmark your lisp implementations, use clisp or ecl on your arm PDA, etc. 05:50:07 ok, i can't do that with save-lisp-and-die... fair enough. 05:50:09 :P 05:50:15 switch easily from sbcl to ccl 05:50:52 cl-launch uses save-lisp-and-die so you don't have to 05:52:33 Okay Fare: I tried the line drew suggest on the command line, I think I'll have to resort to cl-launch 05:52:51 Installing CL-LAUNCH 05:53:03 no need to install it, just download it. 05:53:08 put it in your $PATH 05:53:25 oh im using aptitude 05:53:34 installing it is only if you want to write asdf systems that :depends-on it 05:53:55 Oh okay, just download the package 05:54:08 and put it in the current directory 05:54:20 reminds me that I should update debian's cl-launch... but not until after it updates its asdf to 1.600 or later. 05:54:32 you can aptitude install cl-launch, too 05:54:45 cl-launch 2.32 will work quite well. 05:55:03 Pocket7878 [~Pocket@p1048-ipbf3309hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:55:07 ok great, let me do that, be right back 05:55:14 in debian, at least 05:55:25 (haven't tried it in conjunction with the latest clc, though) 05:55:59 -!- Pocket7878 [~Pocket@p1048-ipbf3309hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Bye...] 05:58:19 Farey: I tried this cl-launch -i '(format t "hello world~%")' -o hello -d 05:58:29 It printed a strange message 05:58:37 "Can't shift that many" 05:59:31 uh, you forgot the ! argument to -d 05:59:37 or you can repeat -d hello 05:59:44 Oh okay 05:59:52 nixeagle: now that i've read about recursive locks, it's indeed because of multiple threads 05:59:54 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:59:55 i.e. dump an image, and make it the executable 06:00:11 some shells treat ! specially and you have to quote it somehow 06:00:14 -!- cools [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:16 stassats: that makes sense :) 06:00:26 Batshit, now this is insane 06:00:31 (does anyone use tcsh these days???) 06:00:40 It now says this implementation does not work 06:00:45 uh? 06:00:51 stassats: I bet if you did the handling in a second thread you could reproduce 06:00:51 nixeagle: some of slimes threads gets locked 06:00:58 try just cl-launch -i '(format t "hello world~%")' -x 06:01:05 Ok 06:01:11 or cl-launch -l sbcl -i '(format t "hello world~%")' -x 06:01:24 and nothing after -x right 06:01:38 yup, it means "execute that now" 06:01:40 nixeagle: no, just call find-package from another thread while locks is held 06:01:45 as opposed to "make an executable" 06:01:45 Fare: what does "-d !" mean? 06:01:55 -d is --dump --- dump an image 06:02:11 ! means "same as the executable (from -o)" 06:02:27 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 06:02:28 so -o hello -d ! means "make it an executable image" 06:02:33 It printed hello world but did not make and executable 06:02:39 an executable 06:02:49 whereas -d hello.core -o hello means "make a script that uses a core file" 06:02:54 Fare: can I send private message it's hard to read here 06:02:59 sure 06:03:16 not all implementations support -d ! 06:03:16 JohnnyL [excellent_@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:29 but sbcl, clisp and ecl do 06:05:07 *Xach* feels less and less bad about cl-launch NIH 06:05:51 cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 06:06:41 cl-launch -ip '"hello world"' -o hello ; ./hello 06:07:02 cl-launch is a LOT of overengineering :) 06:08:39 Xach, thanks for your SBCL fix that made standalone executables possible! 06:08:57 no problem. i hope it doesn't prove too fragile in the face of new options in the future. 06:09:01 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:10:50 splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-lbeacuxmrphdpscr] has joined #lisp 06:10:55 morning 06:13:40 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@CPE0018f85d0b16-CM00159a417e1e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:14:10 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:45 *Xach* wonders how budapest lisp went 06:16:30 is there a better way to convert a byte array to a bit array than using LOOP and LDB? 06:16:50 don't convert at all? 06:17:19 that is a helpful shortcut when feasible 06:17:51 it might be even faster 06:17:53 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@CPE0018f85d0b16-CM00159a417e1e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:18:06 hmm, good point. i hadn't questioned whether i actually need a bit vector :P 06:18:30 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:18:30 to test bit N of the array (multiple-value-bind (array-index bit-index) (floor N 8) (logbitp bit-index (aref byte-array array-index))) 06:19:55 that'll be useful, thanks 06:20:43 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 06:21:23 is there a project that converts XREF database to something like htlm docs? 06:21:25 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 06:21:59 like this function calls this function.. etc with clickable hyperlinks? 06:23:02 -!- arthurschopenhau [~quassel@129.123.253.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:23:50 i guess Albert comes close 06:24:28 you can also full sbcl: (defun bit-aref (vector n) (declare (optimize (safety 0) speed) (simple-bit-vector vector)) 06:24:28 (aref vector n)) 06:24:40 s/full/fool/ 06:25:53 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:27:12 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: brb.] 06:29:43 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:52 majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 06:32:10 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-26-18.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:33:00 cantor [~quassel@129.123.253.168] has joined #lisp 06:33:37 slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:54 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-34-53.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:35:26 wow. all this time I thought bluetooth sucked. turns out it was just this computer. 06:36:08 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:37:01 vectors don't play very much like lists in lisp. 06:37:22 what does that mean? 06:37:48 for one thing, they are different data structures 06:38:56 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:39:05 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40:15 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 06:40:40 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 06:41:38 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:44:00 -!- ud [ud@ud.net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:45:35 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:47:14 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:02 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:48:12 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 06:49:15 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 06:49:40 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:49:47 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:49:58 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 06:52:34 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:55:10 stassats: oh geeze this explains a whole class of issues I have been having lately. 06:55:27 -!- cantor is now known as arthurschopenhau 06:57:15 really nixeagle? 06:58:18 -!- majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:58:37 bjorkintosh: yea I just realize this is why I've been having phantom issues. It happens on (delete-package) too. 06:58:39 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:01 nixeagle: it happens on any package related operations, since thread-safe package operations were introduced recently 07:00:17 stassats: yes I realize now \o/ 07:00:36 stassats: this rocks because its very annoying not to have a backtrace ;) 07:00:46 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-208-5-37.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:02:06 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:03:50 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:03 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 07:05:14 -!- tankrim [~qsvans@c-31fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 07:09:39 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.93.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:12:22 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:13:45 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@adsl-69-232-231-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 07:14:59 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:15:22 this is strange. 07:17:19 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:18:40 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:24:21 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:24:47 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:25:01 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:25:20 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 07:28:33 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:31:19 what is? 07:31:27 [and good morning everyone] 07:34:00 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 07:34:06 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.51] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:34:20 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34:36 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #lisp 07:37:18 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:41:22 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:42:08 good morning beach 07:42:28 beach: no plans for Vienna? (: 07:43:53 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 07:44:31 has an FPS ever been written in common lisp? 07:44:58 some have been written in ocaml, erlang... why not CL? 07:45:02 nunb [~nundan@59.178.180.223] has joined #lisp 07:45:09 even haskell 07:46:09 I think one thing is that it is hard to make it portable... 07:46:16 or that no one has bothered 07:46:37 Anyone know if threads are broken with sbcl 1.0.34 in macports? 07:46:38 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wishrslsmmauayfq] has left #lisp 07:48:03 is there a portable openGL library? 07:48:25 cl-opengl 07:48:33 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:49:51 also is it just me or is common lisp somewhat neglected on windows 07:50:19 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:23 OmniMancer: commercial lisps work well enough, I guess 07:50:26 OmniMancer: somewhat. 07:50:44 Also ccl may be your best bet (threads may be an issue) 07:50:56 Windows 64, otoh, is better supported, iirc. 07:51:20 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:51:45 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:09 ccl? 07:53:13 :O 07:53:45 sbcl seems to run fine on windows but having to do things other than what linux users do for getting asdf to work is not nice 07:54:46 -!- tensorpudding [~user@99.148.206.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:54:58 Clozure lisp http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/WindowsNotes 07:55:44 OmniMancer, iirc asdf's broken because of missing symlinks on Windows 07:56:26 oh clozure 07:56:37 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:56:41 yes and actually windows does have symlinks 07:56:55 its broken because no one has given it some windows platform love 07:57:38 I am not sure how asdf is platform-dependant, but doubtless some brave soul with platform knowledge will step in and fix it ;-) 07:58:05 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:16 tensorpudding [~user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 08:00:37 i'm writing a tutorial for CL beginners. in this tutorial i refer to Lisp implementations as "interpreters". do you think this is too misleading for beginners, or is it a good way to introduce them to CL using terminology they've seen before, and are more comfortable. 08:01:26 its not actually asdf so much as the code it uses to resolve the symlinks in the site dir or whatever 08:01:39 malcolm_reynolds [~malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:01:43 i think this is misleading 08:02:29 lithper2_: yes, people, in particular beginners, are not sophisticated enough to understand the generic meaning of "interpreter". Better stick with "implementation". 08:02:49 lithper2_: most CL implementation don't even have an interpreter! 08:03:08 most? 08:03:08 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:03:19 lithper2_: and for example, SBCL which has one, (but in which it is not enabled by default), use the interpreter only for optimization. 08:03:46 lithper2_: you could add a footnote saying that by implementation you mean a specific lisp on a specific platform, and that most lisps nowadays produce machine-compiled code, and only a very few have/are interpreters 08:03:56 from major ones, i think only CCL has no interpreter 08:03:58 stassats: ok, since they included an interpreter in SBCL, perhaps I cannot say anymore that most don't have one. :-) 08:04:05 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:04:21 I am happy with only one instance; in this case, it is "most" :-) 08:05:13 majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:09 pjb: I think what you wanted to say is most CL implementations are not pure interpreters that have the associated performance cost... 08:06:10 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:06:17 since they're going to start from the REPL, they would probably assume that it's not being compiled to machine code. 08:06:33 OmniMancer: What performance cost? 08:06:57 OmniMancer: one would use the sbcl interpreter because it is actually FASTER than using the compiler! 08:07:10 saying something runs in an interpreter usually implies to people that it runs slowly 08:07:20 the SBCL interpreter is faster than the compiler? 08:07:41 so running code in the interpreter will run the code faster than optimised machine code? 08:07:45 I doubt it 08:07:54 my CPU interprets x86 code 08:08:29 stassats: your CPU is a dynamic binary translator from x86 machine code to some microcode :P 08:08:43 OmniMancer: i don't care 08:08:46 OmniMancer: yes, all the interpreters are faster than compilers. 08:08:48 well maybe not yours in particular but modern ones :D 08:09:00 pjb: does the code run faster though? 08:09:14 compiler is an interpreter too 08:09:18 lithper2_: then have them type (disassemble ...) as part of lesson 1! 08:09:19 the compiler has the compiling overhead but should produce code that runs faster 08:09:28 OmniMancer: to run a program, in general you have: (time (funcall (compile nil (lambda () ...)))) greater than (time (funcall (lambda () ...))). 08:09:30 no a compiler is not an interpreter 08:10:00 OmniMancer: yes, but if that code doesn't run a long time, it's faster to interpret it than to compile it. 08:10:02 splittist: disassemble is specified to compile before disassembling, so it may still interpret at the repl 08:10:20 i'll stick with "implementation" then. 08:10:39 pjb: sure saying that the interpreter is faster because it does not have the compiler overhead is not the same as the code being faster! 08:11:24 also won't math heavy code run faster in sbcl's compiler than the interpreter? 08:11:38 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:38 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:11:38 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 08:11:40 I didn't say that executing the code generate by the compiler wasn't faster than interpreting it. 08:11:56 OmniMancer: depends on the code 08:12:14 OmniMancer: what do you call math heavy? Computing a big bignum is done by the same routine whether you call it from the interpreter or the compiler. 08:12:19 s/compiler/compiled code/ 08:13:50 It's all about the cost of glue logic. 08:14:34 pjb: however the interpreter has a bunch of largely unneccesary calls between things 08:14:41 whereas compiling removes them 08:14:44 But the main problem with compiler vs. interpreter is that it is mostly a continuum. 08:15:06 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Client Quit] 08:15:11 also compiling can produce code that does the math instead of a call to a routine 08:15:22 This is clearly demonstrated also in LiSP, where they go from an interpreter to a compiler in 9 chapters each with a different implementation. 08:15:50 -!- malcolm_reynolds [~malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: malcolm_reynolds] 08:15:54 OmniMancer: yes, but the compiler doesn't remove all of them: the processor still has to remove some! 08:16:41 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:58 the point is that an interpreter has extra stuff that it does that will slow it down somewhat 08:19:17 OmniMancer: most interpreter generate and cache code. 08:19:41 does ECL take a more of a "interpreter" approach? 08:20:25 Some compiler do only half the work, and you need a JITC to complete it. Even a JITC won't generate the microcode, and will expect the processor to interpret it. With most expensive processors, there's even an additionnal compilation phase, from native code to microcode. 08:20:34 lithper2_: how does that matter? 08:20:36 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:21:31 ECL uses a bytecode interpreter yes 08:21:33 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 08:21:53 just curious, since it can be embedded. 08:22:07 ECL also generates C code, which is compiled. 08:22:23 pjb: what I mean by interpreter is a pure interpreter that does no compilation or only compiles to bytecode 08:22:39 but that is the compiler mode of ECL not the interpreter 08:23:37 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:23:45 It is hard to define such a "pure interpreter". 08:23:47 my bytecode is x86 ISA 08:24:10 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-176-242.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:24:24 For example, the lisp reader already converts the lisp text into a data structure. So no lisp implementation can really interpret the lisp text! 08:24:35 (like some basic did). 08:24:36 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:52 Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:25:09 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:25:56 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 08:26:38 pjb: however the reader can be counted as part of the interpreter, and what I mean is that native code is not generated from the source 08:27:05 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-156-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:27:17 What is native code? 08:27:22 You have really strange notions! 08:27:39 Do you realize that ix86 is NOT native code? 08:28:56 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:29:22 All this doesn't matter. You have "machines", and what these machines implement and how these are implemented is irrelevant. 08:29:43 (as long as they're equivalent to Universal Turing Machines). 08:30:25 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qnheqvwdsbgrcjnp] has joined #lisp 08:31:24 Interpreter / Compiler / Native code / Microcode / Hardware ; all these distinctions are irrelevant, you can put the separations at any level you want. 08:31:33 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:32:26 okay then write me a lisp in BF*** that runs faster than SBCL and I will accept your statement that the distinctions have no meaning 08:32:35 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:33:26 Time is an illusion (as space is). 08:33:47 Native code is code which runs on the physical CPU. If you're using some other kind of bytecode, it has to get translated (interpreted/recompiled) to run on the physical platform. 08:34:18 Of course, nothing stops you from making a real platform which executes a bytecode of your choosing. 08:34:35 cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 08:34:48 ofcourse 08:34:53 -!- JohnnyL [excellent_@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 08:34:57 ljames: there is no THE physical CPU. The same code can be run on a 8086 where it is the microcode, or on a i7 when it is compiled to microcode by the processor. 08:35:01 but that is costly time consuming and has other disadvantages 08:35:36 And even when you want to implement a processor in hardware you will have a hard time NOT introducing interpretation or compilation in the hardware. 08:35:44 pjb: what we mean is that you do not generate code that will run on the CPU with no other program running to cause it to run 08:36:05 In fact, as soon as you create a memory or a register on a physical process, you're already removed from the physical process. 08:36:19 The only "native" code that could exist would be on an analogical computer... 08:36:51 OmniMancer: but that's the point: there are programs in the hardware! 08:37:03 -!- l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:22 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:45 High end processors are full of programs, in microcode, to analyse and manipulate your so called "native" code, before interpreting it. 08:38:36 l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 08:38:36 pjb: stop being difficult you know exactly what we mean and are just arguing for no reason 08:38:46 So, unless you have an analogic computer, you always will have a phase of "interpretation", whatever the number of translations ("compilations") you may have had above it. 08:38:56 well, that depends on one's definition of native code. microcode is the CPUs internal native code (for some CPUs). You can't write microcode and pass it directly to the CPU in most cases. 08:39:25 ljames: of course you can program microcode. 08:39:25 -!- majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:39:33 pjb: put it this way, they mean there are _fewer_ interpreters with compiled code then a lisp interpreter. 08:39:44 This is even the normal case, it has been the case since the beginning of computers and is again the case now. 08:39:46 its closer to the processor to compile it 08:40:02 It is only a historical accident that on early microprocessors it wasn't possible to write your own microcode. 08:40:36 pjb: lots of manufacturers make it annoying to put in your own microcode 08:40:43 I don't think microcode is documented on modern CPUs, such as x86 08:40:43 nixeagle: ok, but it's a very dim distinction. How much fewer? How much closer? 08:40:55 pjb: who cares, thats what they mean 08:41:07 -!- arthurschopenhau [~quassel@129.123.253.168] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 08:41:30 ljames: and by exactly the same token, Apple sells "computers" that users cannot program, and on which programmers are forbiden to sell applications (from the AppStore) that can be programmed... 08:41:53 microcode need not be standardised and need not be allowed to execute directly 08:42:06 -!- sledge [~chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:42:19 Now you can tell me that it does not matter and show me an interpreter (lisp) that really does run faster doing some operation that requires some heavy computation.. or you can admit they have a point when they make this distinction. 08:42:28 pjb: that's just an artificially closed platform(and badly closed at that). Microcode is just an internal language the CPU may use in some cases(CISC->RISC), and may change from cpu version to cpu version, so it's usually kept undocumented, and possibly even impossible for the user to get the CPU to execute it directly. 08:42:28 In anycase, pedagogically, it is irrelevant to introduce such distinctions at an early stage. 08:42:51 This is something for an advanced course about computer architecture, and language implementation and optimization. 08:43:05 Not for an introduction to programming for beginners. 08:43:41 ljames: just getting it to upload into the processor is a problem on Intel CPU's. they only take authenticated microcode. some AMD processors let you upload what you want, but everything there is undocumented, so unless you have the budget to fry a lot of chips while figuring things out, good luck. 08:44:10 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:44:20 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:46:02 -!- das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:47:24 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 08:47:29 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 08:50:10 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:51:50 well some AMD ones will run microcode directly but that is only certain chips 08:53:23 OmniMancer: the problem is that it is not a characteristic of the language or "code". 08:55:04 It's a characteristic of the processor, and if you have a processor that works by some level of "interpretation", you can always make a similar processor working by some level of "compilation" or traduction. And orthogonally, if you have a processor that works as software, you can always make a similar processor working by hardware. And vice versa. 08:56:32 It is more intersting to concentrate on the abstract notion of processor and the language characteristics, than on their specific implementations, which can change from time to time depending on a lot of external factors. 08:57:24 Mange [~carlo@c211-30-182-242.artrmn2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:58:33 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 08:58:36 fine 08:59:07 but writing something that interprets code instead of translating it into the form that the machine expects will have the code be slower 08:59:32 OmniMancer: you cannot say that, in general. 09:00:08 some pure 'interpreters' are faster than other compiled implementations 09:00:26 For example, when Apple changes the processors in its machines, they provide a virtual machine to interpret the old binary programs. Well, this interpreter in general executes the program fasters than the original processors! 09:01:21 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:35 For another more lispy example: http://lispm.dyndns.org/news?ID=NEWS-2010-01-30-1 09:01:38 but what about on the original processor, which is something I forgot to say 09:02:07 OmniMancer: see how it is not relevant! It depends on external factors, such as economy and energy sparing. 09:02:19 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:02:41 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:03:07 kwinz3 [kwinz@213142122235.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 09:03:17 then constrain both to be executed by the same platform and discount the compilation time, the compiled version will run faster 09:03:20 You wouldn't use an old original processor, because it would use more energy than a more recent one. Because it would be cheaper to buy a newer and more powerful one than to find an original replacement for the old one (see how the NASA has to scrap old computers to find replacement microprocessors). 09:04:01 this argument is not useful 09:04:18 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 09:04:29 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:05:01 Again, your need for performance on the original processor is either irrelevant or dependent on external factors. For example, it is much easier to write a virtual machine than to develop a hardware processor, even if the hardware processor might be faster. 09:06:06 what you are doing is making and argument that has nothing or very little to do with the original one because you know that what was argued originally is true 09:07:05 besides this argument is not useful anymore 09:07:35 Yes, the OP seems to have dropped it :-) 09:08:27 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:08:29 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:11:43 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:12:07 Breech_ [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:14:44 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:13 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:18:18 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:41 stassats: your bug is as easy to reproduce in lisp as this: (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (make-package :foobar))) 09:20:46 I'm commenting 09:21:31 sbcl --no-userinit ... in the repl do (progn (make-package :foobar) (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (make-package :foobar)))) and watch it hang :) 09:22:44 nixeagle: yes, i did the same couple of hours ago 09:23:05 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.114.188.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:23:19 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:23:33 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:05 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.114.177.202] has joined #lisp 09:25:24 Blkt [~user@160.80.132.50] has joined #lisp 09:25:33 good day people 09:26:35 stassats: oh drat :P 09:26:47 well I commented on the bug :) 09:27:59 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:28:30 i'm now interested in how to fix it 09:29:49 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:31:05 stassats: I tried earlier but I can't seem to redefine the function without causing a hang. Mind you I've never hacked at sbcl in my life ^-^. I just went to target-package.lisp and tried changing it. 09:33:37 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:33:51 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:34:19 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:34:25 Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:34:58 I don't even know how you would go about modifying it to be honest ^-^. I'd expect redefining it to work, it does not so I'm lost. 09:35:00 longkid [~lisp@113.22.146.221] has joined #lisp 09:35:38 well, unlocking the package would be a start 09:36:36 now, two lock terms clash 09:47:21 stassats: no for me just trying to redefine it causes a hang, no debugger prompt, no chance to unlock it ^-^. 09:47:30 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:48:41 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:58 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.3] has joined #lisp 09:51:07 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:44 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]] 09:53:10 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:55:08 FufieToo [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:24 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:58:56 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:59:41 Jabberwockey [~jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 10:00:16 Breech_ [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:00:52 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qnheqvwdsbgrcjnp] has left #lisp 10:02:37 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:27 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:27 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:06:41 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:26 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 10:15:11 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:17:44 rdd`` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:18:52 -!- ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [Quit: brb] 10:18:58 -!- rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:19:25 ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:19:41 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.180.223] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:24:00 Got a runaway infinate loop in sbcl sent via slime in emacs. How do I stop it? 10:24:12 Tried C-c C-c abort, no luck 10:24:43 send sigint to the right thread? 10:25:10 How do I tell what the right thread is? 10:25:22 which one eats all cpu? 10:25:57 Its sbcl, and its a single process 10:26:21 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:26:38 i didn't say it's not a single process 10:27:51 -!- huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:00 :| 10:28:12 jsoft: (sb-thread:list-all-threads) 10:28:12 There must be an easier way to stop an evaluation 10:28:26 I just went C-x C-e 10:28:28 its probably one of the ones towards the front of that list :) 10:29:03 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:09 jsoft: it'll probably be unnamed 10:29:42 well, using htop and sending sigint to the eating cpu thread, what could be easier? 10:29:43 jsoft: something like (# (sb-thread:destroy-thread ) 10:30:39 stassats: what could be easier? Some key chord which stops it for me. 10:30:51 jsoft: oh 10:30:52 of course 10:30:57 C-c C-c is that chord 10:31:00 M-x slime-connections 10:31:19 but you said it didn't work 10:31:23 err 10:31:39 jsoft: M-x slime-selector RET t 10:31:49 it'll be listed there 10:32:05 jsoft: hit 'd' on the bad thread 10:32:19 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:32:31 jsoft: that a little bit more like what you want ;) 10:32:41 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:32:45 which is one is bad? 10:32:58 stassats: probably the one at the top, it'll be a "worker" thread 10:33:51 that would be the thread of list threads function 10:34:25 Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:34:26 stassats: good point, so it'll be the second one ;). Not that killing the first is any harm 10:34:42 because it's already dead? 10:34:47 exactly :P 10:35:13 Hmm. 10:35:18 stassats: of course just killing it in htop is the "easy" way... but he wanted an emacs way, so there is how you do it 10:35:38 Thanks :) 10:35:55 you are welcome :) 10:36:04 an easy way is ,restart-inferior-lisp 10:36:18 stassats: personally thats what I do :P 10:36:33 but who knows what he is doing, maybe thats not a viable option ;) 10:37:38 jsoft: btw if you happen to use remote slimes, M-x slime-selector RET c will take you to a listing where you can select the remote one by hitting 'd' for default. 10:37:53 thats how I knew the trick :) 10:38:08 not only remote slimes 10:38:17 any multiple connections 10:38:23 stassats: of course :P 10:38:24 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:39:44 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kythbnmaqmvaeibl] has joined #lisp 10:40:48 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 10:41:19 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:44:06 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@213142122235.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:44:15 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:44:56 kwinz3 [kwinz@213142122235.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 10:45:33 daniel [~daniel@p5082F76A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:39 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-92-2.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:47:34 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:47:47 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:48:39 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082E7F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:49:27 mornin 10:49:46 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:51:27 carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.240] has joined #lisp 10:51:43 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:45 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.240] has quit [Client Quit] 10:51:53 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:52:12 carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.240] has joined #lisp 10:52:14 -!- longkid [~lisp@113.22.146.221] has left #lisp 11:00:00 mornfall_ [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 11:00:12 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 11:00:35 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:01:31 -!- mornfall_ [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 11:01:34 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 11:01:36 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 11:01:36 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 11:02:46 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:03:37 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-176-242.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:53 DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:08:51 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@213142122235.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:11:18 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:13:58 kwinz3 [kwinz@213142122235.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 11:14:28 bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 11:14:29 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:16:01 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:18:52 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:28:18 tankrim [~qsvans@c-31fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:34:01 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 11:35:06 -!- Blkt [~user@160.80.132.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:37:59 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:38:03 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:39:12 root@my:~# sbcl 11:39:12 mmap: Cannot allocate memory 11:39:12 ensure_space: failed to validate 536870912 bytes at 0x09000000 11:39:22 using debian's sbcl on a machine with 256MB ram and no swap. any workaround 11:39:22 ? 11:39:36 macbook pro, definitely. 11:39:49 *Xach* doesn't know about the memory thing, sorry 11:39:54 --dynamic-space-size MUCHLESSTHAN246MB 11:43:03 now that I've "borrowed" this 2.8GHz 15" Pro for ages I've kind got the "shiny new computer" novelty out of my system. if my Air really gets repaired I might just stick with it 11:45:43 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@218.73.135.57] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:45:49 thankee lichtblau 11:46:01 xinming [~hyy@218.73.135.57] has joined #lisp 11:49:49 Xach: I should have been more specific and said 13" pro vs non-pro. 11:51:31 lukego: I like my non-pro, but it helps not to sit next to my brother with his pro, because there are a lot of little things done nicer. the screen quality for one is vastly different. 11:52:18 is it really? I thought the screens were the same since the non-pro went LED-backlit 11:52:35 is yours a recent (mid-2009) refresh? 11:52:50 oh, nope. didn't know about that. 11:53:00 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 11:53:20 hmm, can't remember how old mine is. 2008 probably. 11:54:11 yeah things have changed. afaik the only difference now is plastic vs. aluminium, backlit keyboard, firewire port. (and options for faster CPU / bigger screen) 11:54:52 silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has joined #lisp 11:55:42 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:34 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@mail.powersense.dk] has joined #lisp 12:00:49 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:05 -!- rmathews [~rm@122.165.6.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:25 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 12:02:44 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 12:03:51 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:11 hdurer_ [~hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-tciaaphkthlorsse] has joined #lisp 12:08:16 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:08:33 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 12:08:55 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-92-2.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:14:24 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-210-22-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:12 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.34] has joined #lisp 12:20:43 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:22:44 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-176-242.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:25:35 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:26:18 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 12:28:05 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:05 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@119.110.101.218] has quit [Quit: lukego] 12:33:44 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:43 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kythbnmaqmvaeibl] has left #lisp 12:38:47 -!- rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 12:41:21 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:41:24 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 12:41:43 -!- whoppix [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:41:44 rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:20 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44:29 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:44:43 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:44:46 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:29 triyo [~c636cae2@gateway/web/freenode/x-uiubmrubpsjupibr] has joined #lisp 12:53:40 whoppix [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:53:47 -!- whoppix [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:54:28 whoppix [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:00:35 Adlai`` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:00:46 does anybody have working cl-opengl on snow leopard on clozure cl? 13:00:52 Kenjin [~josesanto@242-238.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 13:02:05 alama_ [~alama@di17.di.fct.unl.pt] has joined #lisp 13:02:10 -!- Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:49 Breech_ [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:05:14 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:06:40 Hmm, has anything happened with arc for a year or two? 13:08:42 -!- Mange [~carlo@c211-30-182-242.artrmn2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09:05 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Quit: Meow, meOUT!] 13:09:50 cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 13:13:01 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@mail.powersense.dk] has left #lisp 13:13:45 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 13:17:55 ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:42 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:21:01 Munksgaard [~philip@0x50a5b409.virnxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:21:12 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Quit: .] 13:21:46 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:23:40 -!- Munksgaard is now known as Munksgaard-afk 13:23:57 LiamH [~healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:24:14 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Client Quit] 13:24:17 -!- Munksgaard-afk is now known as Munksgaard 13:24:22 G'morning all. 13:24:39 Good afternoon :) 13:27:00 is (aref arg somenumber) the only way to extract components from a vector? 13:27:29 bjorkintosh: No, but that's what the other methods boil down to in the end. 13:27:40 <_3b__> you can use ELT, or you can use loop, map, etc if you want to extract all the components 13:29:25 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:30:13 all i'm tryin to do is to use a vector as an argument for a function 13:30:19 do something with the components 13:30:22 and then return a vector. 13:30:28 DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 13:31:38 but it doesn't like that. it has to be a list, not a vector 13:32:09 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:46 <_3b__> jdz: do you mean cl-glut or cl-opengl in general (using something other than glut)? 13:33:12 bjorkintosh: What did you try, what did you expect, and what happened instead? 13:33:29 _3b__: well, (require :cl-opengl) crashes my ccl, so i'm not really sure 13:33:47 <_3b__> jdz: hmm, haven't heard about that problem :/ 13:33:54 crashes as in "trace trap" 13:34:06 something as simple as my helper function 'vectorize'... which is my brilliant solution to the problem. 13:34:23 <_3b__> jdz: using my tree from github or the darcs tree on cl-net? 13:34:37 _3b__: darcs one at the moment 13:34:47 _3b__: i'll try yours from github 13:35:19 (defun vectorize (x) (setf x '#((car x) (car (cdr x)))) 13:35:26 simply returns that. 13:35:36 <_3b__> might still not work, osx is annoying about threads, may have to load it from the initial thread 13:35:36 setf fails to compute that as requested 13:35:57 a vector with #((car x) (car (cdr x))) 13:36:19 bjorkintosh: what did you expect to happen? 13:37:03 _3b__: yep, same problem with your branch. 13:37:21 ... Sounds like we need a simple tutorial on pass-by-value semantics. :-/ 13:37:29 i thought it would give me a nice vector with two numbers 13:37:38 <_3b__> jdz: ok, you can either switch to sbcl, and either run it (or slime) unthreaded or load cl-opengl before slime 13:37:51 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:58 _3b__: i'm loading it without slime... 13:38:08 <_3b__> jdz: or hack around the problem (optionally adding a patch to cl-opengl to add the hack) 13:38:10 _3b__: and i need ccl for the threads :/ 13:38:38 -!- Adlai`` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:49 <_3b__> ok, let see if i can find the stuff you need to do... 13:38:52 Adlai`` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:38:59 johs [~user@bubbles.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:39:26 it is even hard to locate the troublesome code since the process bails with a signal. 13:39:30 -!- johs [~user@bubbles.netfonds.no] has quit [Client Quit] 13:39:59 johs [~user@bubbles.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:39:59 <_3b__> 'troublesome code' is in ccl... it grabs the initial thread for internal use, and osx wants gl stuff run from that thread only 13:40:11 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:40:25 _3b__: Or, the troublesome code is in OS X ;) 13:40:32 <_3b__> right, that too :) 13:40:37 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75689f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:01 I know there have been some conversations about this on ccl-devel  might want to check there. 13:41:12 -!- johs [~user@bubbles.netfonds.no] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41:17 _3b__: i'm not yet running any code (i think). i'm just compiling/loading it. 13:41:24 *_3b__* knows what to do to work around it, just has no mac to test patches on 13:41:30 Err ... maybe openmcl-devel 13:41:47 <_3b__> jdz: yeah... osx is /very/ picky :/ 13:42:00 euklides_ [~chatzilla@h95-155-239-237.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:18 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:42:49 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:42:51 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:43:21 <_3b__> jdz: see http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/browser/trunk/source/examples/opengl-ffi.lisp#L114 13:43:22 bjorkintosh: ok, the syntax you used won't do that. 13:43:47 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:43:50 bjorkintosh: you could use (defun vectorize (x) (vector (first x) (second x))) instead 13:44:05 ah i have to use the keyword vector. 13:44:08 okay let me see. 13:44:17 <_3b__> jdz: i don't think you need quite all of that stuff, but i don't really know the specifics 13:44:46 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 13:44:46 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz_] 13:45:01 _3b__: btw, that condition on line 134 does not hold for me so i get the error (when running plain ccl without slime or anything) 13:45:47 <_3b__> jdz: what do you mean? 13:46:21 *_3b__* doesn't know what any of that osx/ccl specific code means 13:46:29 thanks Xach. 13:46:38 that's all i was missing. the keyword 'vector'. 13:46:44 well, i'm not too much into that osx code, too. 13:46:48 i kept using setf instead 13:47:22 <_3b__> i think i was planning to just ignore the case that seems to be testing for though, if i patched cl-opengl 13:47:40 jdz pasted "opengl-ffi fail" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94350 13:48:03 bjorkintosh: "vector" is a function 13:48:05 bjorkintosh: So, your next trick is actually (apply #'vector x). 13:48:15 or (coerce x 'vector) 13:48:16 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 13:48:21 there are many options 13:48:24 Which will produce a vector with as many elements as there are elements in the list X. 13:48:46 True. map and #'identity come to mind. 13:48:56 <_3b__> jdz: ah, don't know then... might need to start it differently or something, or ask ccl people what is going on 13:49:09 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 _3b__: yes, that seems the way to proceed. 13:51:13 hi 13:51:27 Is there a way in sb-bsd-sockets to set sock opts? Specifically reuse_addr for tcp sockets? 13:51:49 Does ccl have the option to run the initial thread as an FFI thread and spawn a new thread for whatever it is that the initial thread normally does? 13:51:56 hc_e: Yes. 13:53:06 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@242-238.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:53:06 Adlai``` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:53:24 Looks like it might be (setf (sockupt-reuse-address ) t). 13:53:32 hc_e: (setf (sockopt-reuse-address socket) t) 13:53:33 Err... sockopt. 13:53:36 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 13:53:50 Thanks, I'll try that. 13:53:53 There's an example at the bottom of contrib/sb-bsd-sockets/sockopt.lisp. 13:55:01 is there a good way to check from the swank side whether an emacs is connected, i.e. whether EVAL-IN-EMACS is expected to work? 13:55:19 (... ideally one that works with ancient swank ...) 13:57:23 eval-in-emacs only works if the user customized his slime to allow it 13:57:25 -!- Adlai`` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:57:36 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-176-242.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:57:42 blandest [~blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:58:03 fe[nl]ix: here? 13:58:13 lichtblau: Maybe something to do with swank::*emacs-connection* ? 13:58:39 nyef: ah, thanks, looks good 13:59:27 tcr: yes 13:59:30 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-165-52.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:59:30 nope swank::*connections* is better 13:59:42 but it depends on what you want to do, lichtblau 13:59:51 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:52 fe[nl]ix: Did you talk to lukego today? 14:00:20 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:06 *nyef* sighs. 14:01:11 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:01:16 So, I just tried to write a macro-defining macro in the C preprocessor. 14:01:26 hah 14:01:31 why would you attempt that? 14:01:49 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 14:01:54 tcr: no, I just woke up :) 14:02:32 Because I have repeated "typedef (*_t); #define (()ASMRTN_)" in one of my header files. 14:02:58 fe[nl]ix: can you reach him now by any means? I'd like to know when he arrives at Friday, but I must leave in 15minutes 14:03:00 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 14:03:45 And I thought, "#define DEFINE_ASSEMBLY_FUNCTION(rettype,name,args,asmname) typedef rettype (*name##_t)args; #define name ((name##_t)asmname)" 14:03:47 nyef: well, I understand that part of why :P 14:03:49 prxq [~mommer@g227075007.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:58 you're thinking too much like a lisper :P 14:04:04 And got as far as where I would put the second #define before I realized... 14:04:11 heh 14:04:29 and the walls came crumbling down 14:04:41 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:59 define an inline function instead? 14:05:09 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:11 a somber nyef, sitting in the middle, surrounded by rubble, curly braces and hash signs everywhere 14:05:22 tcr: it's a typedef 14:05:37 and a symbol munging 14:05:56 I could try to expand into an inline function, I guess... Still nasty. 14:06:33 oh, you might be able to have an inline function that does the cast and returns the desired type, yeah 14:07:20 inline name##_t name(void *asmname) { return (name##_t) asmname; } 14:07:46 with the appropriate number of underscores around inline 14:07:54 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:15 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:09:33 -!- bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 14:13:03 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:23 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 14:21:01 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:21:23 -!- triyo [~c636cae2@gateway/web/freenode/x-uiubmrubpsjupibr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:22:19 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:23:48 -!- euklides_ [~chatzilla@h95-155-239-237.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has left #lisp 14:24:48 Hrm... The inline-function thing doesn't work either. 14:25:11 Because I end up either needing to parse the arglist or needing an extra set of parens at the call site. 14:25:18 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:26:22 cmsimon [~iamcms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 14:26:26 -!- fatalnix [~Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 14:27:37 fatalnix [~Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:49 hmm 14:27:52 oh well :) 14:28:05 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:48 So much for being able to use the same definitions once for all platforms. :-/ 14:30:48 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-252.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:12 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:36:26 quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:14 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:25 jayeola [~jmaclean@194.75.202.163] has joined #lisp 14:37:55 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 14:38:31 -!- quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:41:08 nyef: you could call the preprocessor twice to generate that definitions, or generate them in another way 14:41:16 or am I missing something? 14:41:28 http://common-lisp.net/project/common-lisp-beginner/ 14:41:29 :D 14:42:49 prxq: I'm trying to do this in the context of SBCL's runtime.h, so running the preprocessor twice isn't exactly on the table, and generating them would mean moving more C crap to the lisp side. 14:43:42 -!- Kirklander [~Kirklande@174-143-212-242.static.cloud-ips.com] has left #lisp 14:43:56 i see 14:44:21 (fragile C crap into genesis, no less, which isn't exactly wonderful as it is.) 14:44:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1] 14:44:41 *prxq* looks at the backlog again 14:44:55 charlie [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:09 -!- charlie is now known as tsuru 14:48:54 nyef: I think some middle ground can be achieved by having each declaration twice. One DEFINE_ASSEMBLY_FUNCTION, and one for DEFINE_THE_OTHER_THING 14:49:08 which only needs the name as argument 14:49:16 not pretty, but hey, it's C 14:49:16 rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-208-5-37.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:59 Mmm... I think I'm going to stick with what I have now, modulo some possible whitespace and/or explanatory comments. 14:51:34 i find myself compelled to use TAGBODY -- i feel dirty 14:51:57 alama_: tagbody is great. don't feel dirty. 14:52:14 Xach: thanks for the reassurance 14:52:48 i'm writing an user input control loop; it seems natural to have various tags to which i can jump, depending on the input 14:53:06 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:09 I don't know... I didn't feel right the first time I used a tagbody... 14:53:28 nyef: exactly. this may indeed be the first time i've actually written a tagbody 14:53:51 alama_: do you use goto in other languages? 14:53:53 And mine was in the control loop for part of an assembler. 14:54:08 prxq: no, since i basically use only lisp :-> 14:54:42 in the other languages i've used, i don't think i've written anything analogous to a tagbody/goto 14:54:47 <_3b__> tagbody seems reasonable for implementing other iteration constructs, or for state machines, which it sounds like this is 14:54:56 except when i wrote alpha assembly code as an undergrad 14:54:58 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-208-5-37.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:56:13 Actually, goto is useful for error handling in C. 14:56:25 A common pattern in the Linux kernel, for example. 14:56:57 only one person considered it harmful and unstructured. he was countered by someone else who called his style illiterate. 14:57:13 subtle nerdy insults. 14:57:42 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:57:46 <_3b__> well, at least unlike C, we can wrap our low level fallbacks in something nicer if we feel the need :) 14:57:50 Bah. Literate programming is by no means for everyone. 15:00:26 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:51 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:31 gz_ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:43 quack [~quack@bl4-90-65.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:10:21 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:10:41 quack_ [~quack@bl4-90-65.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:10:44 -!- quack [~quack@bl4-90-65.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 15:11:03 -!- quack_ [~quack@bl4-90-65.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 15:11:18 quack [~quack@bl4-90-65.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:11:24 metasyntax [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:41 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:12:03 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 15:12:37 prxq, pkhuong: Thanks for the pointers you gave me yesterday. I now have a startup time of less than 3 seconds, which is acceptable. 15:12:55 -!- gz_ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:12:55 great! 15:13:07 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:13:12 quack: what was the reason for the long startup time? 15:14:42 prxq: FASL loading. I dumped a core with save-lisp-and-die with just cl-gtk2 and other prerequs I needed. My package was outside of the core. Even so, the startup time came down from 36s to 3s. (from command-line to window) 15:15:21 I thought clbuild was taking care of that with dumpcore. It was not. 15:16:16 cl-gtk2 has a really long loading time for me as well 15:16:21 wow 15:16:23 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-2E21CFB1.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 15:16:26 Now I just have to create a slime-lisp-implementation and start translating that algorithms (THAT will be the hasd part). 15:17:20 I make a file make-core.lisp which is runned once to make a core (90Mb core, for a fact). 15:17:26 i'm not sure what cl-gtk2 does that takes so long on SBCL when loading it with ASDF. 15:17:45 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:18:06 aerique: FASL. It also takes a long time on gdk-classes-register. 15:18:22 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:18:33 But with a core, 2-3s from invocation to window. I can conform that. 15:18:41 ... confirm... 15:18:58 So, once again, thanks, guys. 15:19:40 (BTW, the more or less same example in clojure+swing takes 4s from invocation to window). 15:21:46 2s sounds ok. my experience with java desktop stuff is usually that it's embarrasingly slow. i guess clojure/java is just fast in this case. 15:22:28 hypno: not so. JVM is quite fast. Swing is slow. 15:22:50 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has joined #lisp 15:22:55 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has left #lisp 15:23:00 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 15:24:24 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:24:25 I never tried ABCL, and I wonder how it would fare against clojure. 15:24:50 calling java slow because of class loading startup overhead is a fabulous combination of to-the-point criticism and remarkable unfairness 15:25:31 lichtblau: if we had JVM instructions in our X86 processors... 15:26:00 quack: huh? be it swing, be it the jvm, hell be it divine intervention; my point is that java-based GUI apps usually are slow in my experience (especially in startup, but also otherwise). 15:26:32 yay, i got into clozure cl's kernel debugger by pressing C-c 15:26:57 hypno: eclipse isn't slower than emacs (I am a heavy emacs user). 15:28:08 Any GUI app that isn't user-I/O bound has a problem. 15:28:26 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:29:47 -!- ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:54 I used java heavily in '96, when in college. Now, that was SLOW, but usable. Today it comes to be very fast with "-server", even if at expense of startup time. 15:30:17 Greetings lispers. 15:30:19 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:31:13 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 15:31:27 *splittist* has never had the patience to sit through the eclipse startup to test how fast it might be... 15:31:28 Ugh. LINKFLAGS instead of LDFLAGS? WTF? 15:32:38 quack: funny that: eclipse is close to useless on my 1gb ram machine. i can barely use netbeans. 15:32:38 Left ERC open all night and it didn't drop the connection. Not sure what I fixed in my emacs configuration, but I'm glad it's working. 15:33:16 hypno: yes, that is a problem with eclipse. I concede that. 15:33:28 hypno: here's a nickel, kid... 15:33:55 hypno: I feel for you (been using Eclipse on 512MB machine. Switching to 1.5G and netbeans fixed xD) 15:35:33 konr [~user@201.82.136.64] has joined #lisp 15:35:36 p_l: i just do not do java anymore, so i'm happy, but thanks for your non-condencending sympathy no less. :) 15:36:03 hehe 15:37:07 Adlai```` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:40:42 -!- Adlai``` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:42:29 nyef: My most recent use for tagbody (or rather PROG) meme is (with-mutex (mutex) (when (bad-condition-p) (go outside)) ...) to make sure that the error is not signaled while still holding on the lock. 15:43:19 perhaps this should be used in package functions 15:43:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-93-55.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:44:09 yeah or a condition firewall 15:46:59 jollygood [~jollygood@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 15:47:45 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.21] has joined #lisp 15:49:47 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:50:15 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:52:26 Breech_1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:52:35 MissPiggy [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 15:52:45 milanj [~milan@79.101.180.53] has joined #lisp 15:52:59 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:57:49 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-jltrdmmjcobivlur] has joined #lisp 15:58:01 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:51 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.201] has quit [Quit: off] 16:00:41 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-165-52.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02:40 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:10 -!- alama_ [~alama@di17.di.fct.unl.pt] has quit [Quit: alama_] 16:07:44 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-97-197.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:09:26 ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:15 -!- beach [~user@86.201.115.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:11:38 -!- Adlai```` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:20 Adlai```` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:12:41 -!- beach` is now known as beach 16:13:27 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:14:04 -!- HET4 is now known as HET2 16:14:29 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:14:53 -!- Adlai```` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:13 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:18:01 a-s [~user@2001:15c0:66a3:2:214:85ff:feea:c35a] has joined #lisp 16:18:33 Adlai```` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:19:17 -!- Adlai```` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:29 Adlai```` [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:23:27 -!- tankrim [~qsvans@c-31fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 16:24:56 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 16:29:56 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:31:30 -!- ennen [~nn@209.20.81.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:31:31 -!- a-s [~user@2001:15c0:66a3:2:214:85ff:feea:c35a] has left #lisp 16:32:14 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:32:35 ennen [~nn@studio25.org] has joined #lisp 16:34:24 -!- blandest [~blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has left #lisp 16:35:36 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-jltrdmmjcobivlur] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:36:13 -!- Breech_1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:38:33 -!- Adlai```` is now known as Adlai 16:38:34 ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:39:01 -!- Adlai [~adlai@93-173-190-98.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Changing host] 16:39:01 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:39:57 Adlai: In Eos, you dropped fixtures and the random stuff for quickcheck-like tests. I was wondering if there was a plan to add those back at some point... 16:40:25 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:44:06 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:10 pbusser [~pbusser@82.174.238.138] has joined #lisp 16:46:30 ejs [~eugen@105-104-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:32 -!- FufieToo [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:47:19 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:49:27 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 16:49:35 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:49:49 Fare: therep? 16:50:11 alama_ [~alama@di17.di.fct.unl.pt] has joined #lisp 16:52:05 I see DO-EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS, but is there a LIST-EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS? I realize it's trivial to write, I just don't want to invent the wheel. 16:52:28 you can use LOOP for that 16:52:37 hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:40 (apropos-list "" t) does it too 16:54:23 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:18 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:25 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:55:58 The external-only optional parameter appears to be implementation specific. 16:56:54 Heh. "gigabot: How can I obtain a list of the external symbols..." 16:57:08 So many ways 16:59:05 tmh: Oh right :-) 16:59:21 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:00:40 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:02:02 Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:03 das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:44 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:14:47 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:16:18 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:16:27 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 17:18:38 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:58 wedgeV [~wedge@adsl-69-232-231-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:31 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:42 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:37 -!- ejs [~eugen@105-104-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:22:41 -!- jayeola [~jmaclean@194.75.202.163] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:22:52 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:22:52 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 17:23:36 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 17:26:39 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:29:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: reboot] 17:31:19 any opinions on using &optional vs. &key arguments? Like "&key won't break when you add more parameters and forget to update the call sites"? 17:31:53 key is descriptive 17:32:03 Also you can control which parameters to omit at call sites. 17:32:24 and related, would it be very hard to add the kind of smarts to SBCL where it could check if any WHO-CALLs sites haven't changed when a function is redefined 17:32:44 stassats, nyef: yeah, those are two good arguments 17:32:53 &optional is an optimization for when you only have one optional parameter and don't expect to add more in the future 17:33:22 i like one &key after 10 optionals 17:33:32 in CLIM 17:33:36 heh 17:33:41 it's sort of nice in Python that you can move from optional to key arguments per call-site and don't have to declare that specially 17:34:22 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:34:58 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:43 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:36:13 cmm: I guess that's a reasonable stance. The problem is that usually the optimisation is most tempting in the beginning, when you have a very vague idea of whether you'll need to add more 17:38:50 when you have a vague idea you use keyword parameters 17:40:05 i'll agree with stassats with it &key beeing descriptive. i find it extremly nice to have when you have to go back and modify some code 1 year after it was written, since the arguments are so explicitly named. i usually saves me both a function & documentation lookup. 17:40:37 adeht: but at the beginning it's tempting to avoid that extra typing/space overhead, because that's when it's most significant 17:42:02 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:58 ShadowChild [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 17:44:05 -!- hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:23 NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-57-82-249-5-59.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:23 in the worst case it's just a matter of doing who-calls and changing the callers anyway 17:45:50 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:46:26 mapour [~mapour@linux.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 17:47:06 -!- lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:47:21 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-32-82-254-9-185.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:47:44 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 17:49:33 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:28 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:51:48 fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:53:26 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 17:55:26 cools [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:25 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 18:00:02 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:00:24 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:00:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:03:01 demmeln1 [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 18:03:08 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:04:48 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-92-2.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:05:59 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:54 ziga` [~user@BSN-176-169-5.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:59 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:10:09 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 18:10:20 bunz [~bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #lisp 18:17:05 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 18:18:42 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19:32 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 18:20:39 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21:04 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:37 Lovely... Yet another blog entry with the &body lambda-list-keyword... 18:22:08 xmlisp? 18:22:15 Heh. 18:22:50 This is an article from 2002, but still, paying attention couldn't have been -that- costly back then, could it? 18:23:15 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:23:45 nyef: what's the issue with &body? 18:24:00 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-33-58.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:24:06 It's not an issue with &body, it's an issue with &body. 18:24:16 oh 18:24:37 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.82.4] has joined #lisp 18:24:44 & not being a legit lambda-list-keyword, and the semicolon commenting out the rest of the line thus deranging the paren balance. 18:25:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-93-55.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:25:01 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:16 cmm: sure, but it'd be nice to have it automated 18:28:21 -!- maelcoluim [~maelcolui@client-86-25-216-208.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:28:26 <_3b__> nyef: maybe they have a reader macro on #\& to fix it :p 18:29:04 Heh. That way lies madness. 18:29:18 In sbcl (1.0.34.10 on OS X x86-64) when i type e.g. "(clrhash :foo)" I get a backtrace which doesn't even mention that the error happened in the function CLRHASH. (http://paste.lisp.org/+20TB). Does anyone know the reason (I know others which get more usefull backtraces). Is it something I can change by compiling sbcl with different settings? The only custom features I have at the moment is :sb-threads. 18:30:00 maelcoluim [~maelcolui@host81-102-111-71.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:04 Oh! 18:30:21 demmeln1: i heard that's a problem with sbcl on mac os x 18:30:24 demmeln1: Unfortunately, this is a known problem with SBCL on OSX, and possibly only the 64-bit version. 18:30:42 I'd try and fix it, but I don't have an OSX box. 18:31:04 sbcl's download graph shows x86_64 being at 1.0.29 for linux on http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html but up to 1.0.34 seems to run just fine here ^-^ (have not tried 1.0.35 yet). 18:31:12 nyef: ah ok so its OS related, that explains it. Still annoying. 18:31:36 It's not really OS-related so much as OS-specific. 18:31:38 <_3b__> nixeagle: dl page just shows what there is a binary for, not what works 18:31:53 nyef: ok ;-) 18:31:59 I know generally -why- it happens, but haven't tried to track it down enough to put together a possible fix. 18:32:28 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 18:32:40 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-38-149.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:32:44 nyef: I assume there is no known workaround? 18:32:57 _3b__: mmm well debian sid has a working 1.0.34 binary. 18:32:58 Actually, there is a possible workaround. 18:33:03 demmeln1: install linux? 18:33:19 <_3b__> nixeagle: available from the sbcl devs that is :) 18:33:30 _3b__: of course of course ;) 18:33:59 Said workaround is to patch SBCL with something I put together a while ago, enter LDB when you get one of these errors, and use a "backtrace from context" command in that to get a usable backtrace. 18:34:18 There might be another way that doesn't involve the patch, but I'd need to dig through the debugger guts to find it. 18:34:19 <_3b__> nixeagle: generally, newer versions can be expected to work, and if they don't it is probably a bug the devs would like to know about 18:34:28 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 18:34:29 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-26-18.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:35:49 btw could someone explain why redefining find-package causes a hang for me. Yes I really did intend to do that, I was trying to fix a hang because of a lock not getting released. ^-^. Mind you I have never tried to modify sbcl in my life. 18:35:59 Ahh... I remember this code. Now, why isn't the frame chain set up correctly...? 18:36:14 this was in target-package.lisp btw 18:36:36 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:02 majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:07 nyef: It would be cool if you could share the patch. Should I file a bug at launchpad? I didnt find one. 18:37:15 stassats: well... 18:37:32 nixeagle: because of package locks (not thread locks)? 18:37:48 demmeln1: The patch is http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/commitdiff/5bb68e49754aadd2742d8a8e7f7c8ecc8c2ae785 18:37:51 stassats: oh I know that, I was trying to poke at fixing the thread lock :( 18:38:08 nixeagle: sb-ext:unlock-package 18:38:09 I'm surprised that nobody has opened a launchpad bug yet, TBH, this has been a known problem for a while now. 18:38:12 but the package lock ought to not hang the repl! I ought to be getting correctable errors 18:38:18 mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-uuevbptkpmczjezx] has joined #lisp 18:39:03 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:39:15 Actually... Is internal-error called on the altstack or the main stack? 18:39:23 -!- konr [~user@201.82.136.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:39 konr [~user@201.82.136.64] has joined #lisp 18:39:41 nixeagle: and that's because of thread locks 18:40:23 stassats: right... if I copy the whole function into the repl (in the cl package) the repl hangs. Thus... I cannot modify this function :( 18:40:39 and yes the package lock is gone 18:41:14 then perhaps your definition is broken 18:41:20 ... Oh, hell, is this even happening in the right -thread-?! 18:41:55 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:42:09 Ah, okay, it is, as it's called through call_c_function_in_context(). 18:42:09 stassats: not following :S. I just copied what was defined in target-lisp pasted it into the repl and watched it hang the repl just the same as the original bug does. 18:43:00 err target-package.lisp I'm sorry 18:43:18 fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 18:44:36 nyef: Thanks. I'll try the patch an open a bug. 18:44:47 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:48 (-report) 18:45:09 demmeln1: I may have a better option for you in a few minutes. I'm looking at the magic bits for OSX internal-error handling now. 18:45:34 nixeagle: i'm able easily redefine it 18:45:49 nyef: cool, I'll wait 18:45:51 stassats: great! I can't :) 18:48:54 levente_meszaros pasted "reader+walker hand in hand" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94369 18:49:10 demmeln1: Okay, open up src/runtime/x86-64-darwin-os.c, find the function open_stack_allocation(), and move the line "context->rbp = context->rsp;" to just after the line "push_context(context->rbp, context);", rebuild, and see if that helps. 18:49:42 -!- quack [~quack@bl4-90-65.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 18:50:47 nyef: ok I will. Do you know which functions are affected? is seems to be a lot of internal functions. 18:50:58 It is anything that uses an internal-error trap. 18:51:09 Which is just about every function. 18:52:00 Any compiled type-check, for example, will have this problem, as will invalid-number-of-arguments, keyword argument mismatches, etc. 18:52:16 alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-0408.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:53:12 lispm [~joswig@e177153148.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:03 Oh, god. This isn't going to work. 18:54:08 Missed a spot. 18:54:51 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:55:50 In the asm statement just above open_stack_allocation(), the "mov %rbp, %rsp" needs to be changed to "lea -48(%rbp), %rsp". 18:56:20 -!- bunz [~bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit [Quit: bye] 18:56:53 nyef: ok. 18:57:58 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:25 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:58:52 -!- alama_ [~alama@di17.di.fct.unl.pt] has quit [Quit: alama_] 18:59:54 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:58 nyef pasted "For those following along at home, this is what I'm proposing as a fix for the x86-64-darwin backtrace problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94371 19:01:17 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:01:21 -!- Sergio`_ [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:03:36 I'm going to try to compile 1.0.35 instead of using the debian binary and see if I can't modify find-package after that :) 19:05:01 And I'm sure that everyone will be happy to know that this bug has been there since day one, making it all slyrus' fault! ^_- 19:06:06 (Possibly partly my fault, though, as I definately remember writing and helping to debug some version of this code, though it may have been the x86 version.) 19:07:18 is there a poll/select IOlib documentation ? 19:07:46 i see only network releated docs 19:07:46 man poll 19:07:46 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for poll. 19:07:58 man select 19:07:58 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man2/select.2.html 19:09:24 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:10:18 -!- silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has quit [Quit: silenius] 19:11:39 nyef: Is there a way to have the compiler randomly insert calls to (thread-yield) between vops? 19:12:17 -!- HET2 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:12:20 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:13:49 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 19:13:56 lichtblau: what code stays in conium? 19:15:15 tankrim [~qsvans@c-31fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:16:14 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-33-58.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:17:58 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:20:24 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:34 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 19:22:20 can i run a built sbcl without installing it? 19:22:33 You have to specify where the core is 19:22:37 located. 19:22:38 run-sbcl.sh 19:22:46 sh ./run- what Adlai said 19:23:10 Bah, scripts of for lazy people. :-P 19:23:11 i am blind, sorry 19:24:47 nyef: its looking good 19:25:12 demmeln1: Cool. 19:25:57 tcr: I don't know about randomly, but it's possible to do so on some principled basis, why? 19:26:02 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:26:41 to increase non-determinism on uniprocessors 19:27:53 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@adsl-69-232-231-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 19:27:55 for stress testing? 19:28:00 yeah 19:28:22 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-22-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:31 Aren't threads scheduled from the clock? 19:29:57 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:34:21 gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:34 -!- majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:34:47 nyef: The backtrace for the example now is: 19:34:47 0: (CLRHASH :FOO)[:EXTERNAL] 19:34:47 1: (SB-INT:SIMPLE-EVAL-IN-LEXENV (CLRHASH :FOO) #) 19:35:00 nyef: Anything else you want me to test? 19:35:02 demmeln1: Looks like a good start. 19:35:13 Yeah, (+ 1 nil). 19:35:27 Not that I expect it to fail at this point. 19:36:33 You might run the test suite, just in case, but I'm not really expecting further problems on this one. 19:36:58 test suit ran as usual 19:37:03 Nice. 19:37:16 a couple of failures (probably all related to threads) 19:37:21 drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 19:37:38 I'll get a second opinion on this, and if it's good then I'll commit, which should be in plenty of time for the next release. 19:37:44 drewc: Hello. 19:37:48 0: (SB-KERNEL:TWO-ARG-+ 1 NIL) 19:37:48 1: (COMMON-LISP:+)[:EXTERNAL] 19:37:52 looks good 19:37:59 Yup, that's good. 19:38:52 nyef: g'morining 19:38:53 majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:03 drewc: You're not running OSX, are you? 19:39:31 nyef: nay, linux on every box 19:39:36 'what I thought. 19:40:25 unicode [~user@95.214.65.146] has joined #lisp 19:40:47 attila_lendvai: around? 19:42:51 drewc: did he send in an HCL patch or something? :P 19:43:16 felideon: :) 19:43:37 antifuchs: Herep? 19:44:09 -!- tankrim [~qsvans@c-31fee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 19:44:27 -!- ziga` [~user@BSN-176-169-5.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:42 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:55 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:38 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@213142122235.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:47:18 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.65.146] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:48:29 antifuchs: there? 19:48:44 tcr: Are you running on OSX? 19:48:52 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 19:49:29 nyef: /mg lukego, he was interested in a patch against the backtrace havor on osx 19:49:32 msg 19:49:39 Oh, right. 19:50:11 he's not there though but leave him a memo 19:50:25 Also: Xach 19:54:42 drewc, a bit 19:56:14 attila_lendvai: i was wondering about your partial evaluator.. have you guys based it on a particular technique or paper i can read? I found your name in something i was reading last night, so figured i'd ask :) 19:57:00 *drewc* is interested in partially evaluated towers of relflective interpreters 19:57:11 and spell check 19:57:35 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:01 -!- majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:58:23 drewc, we read several papers throughout the years, but in our approach we are much more hackers than scientists 19:58:45 so, nothing specific, but you can google for self applicable partial evaluator 19:59:12 also, the CL partial eval available at dwim.hu is made by levente 19:59:37 i was only brainstorming (we have live projects to deliver) 19:59:48 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:59:48 Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-15-44.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:34 nyef: so what was the reason for the breakage? 20:01:11 tcr: A blown frame pointer on the stack. 20:01:34 attila_lendvai: ok cool. you guys are currently self applicable? are you using cl-walker and do you have an interpreter too? 20:01:52 attila_lendvai_ [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:02:11 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:31 ...when will the linux hackers finally give up on C? 20:02:31 attila_lendvai_: ok cool. you guys are currently self applicable? are you using cl-walker and do you have an interpreter too? 20:02:57 *attila_lendvai_* is after a kernel kernel panic because of an unconnected external monitor 20:03:10 attila_lendvai_: when they give up on linux i would suspect, it's hard to write a unix in a language that's not C :) 20:03:33 drewc, a partial evaliator is just a smart interpreter. there's not much difference really 20:03:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:03:49 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 20:03:56 attila_lendvai_: fair enough. :) 20:04:07 attila_lendvai: About the same time that Microsoft open-sources Windows. 20:04:22 nyef: Thank you! You took away a lot of pain :). I'm off now. Test suite results: http://paste.lisp.org/+20TK. (notice unexpected successes ;) ). Maybe you notice something suspicious but IIRC the failures are the same as before the patch and probably caused by broken threads on OS X. 20:04:36 MS did open source some parts of windows to China 20:04:40 our experiment was to write an eval of a new language in CL, then apply the CL partial eval to create a compiler for the new language 20:04:41 there was this cool Darius Bacon page about partial evaluation (with examples of TRACE.. or was it actually the paper he referred to) 20:04:42 well opened the source a little 20:04:51 Guthur: I mean placing it under a non-restrictive license available to the general public. 20:04:57 The Windows 2000 source code leak doesn't count. :-) 20:05:29 anton_v [~Miranda@87.252.227.40] has joined #lisp 20:05:32 we missed the plane on the way back from sbcl10 and on the extra day on the airport we did some merciless hacking... :) 20:05:49 attila_lendvai: that's similar to what i want to do :) 20:05:56 was it as much fun as it sounds? 20:06:10 What would be the right place to ask about garbage collection algorithms? I'm trying to figure what makes tri-color GC better than mark-and-sweep, besides tri-color GCs being incremental. 20:06:38 drewc, a whole lot. i hardly can hold back myself working on it... but the next 1-2 month we must get other (paying) things done unfortunately 20:07:23 attila_lendvai: i know the feeling... i just lost a few weeks work playing with monads, and peval is next on my list, but i have to make some billable hours :) 20:07:49 -!- demmeln1 [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:08:00 I feel lust to hack 20:08:02 drewc, we see the path to an eval that can be configured re memory layout, language semantics, etc. and the PE takes care of automating the emission of a VM with semantics customized at PE time 20:08:07 *drewc* wants to peval 3-lisp 20:08:20 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: reboot] 20:08:46 attila_lendvai: have you read costanza's paper on 3-lisp and reflection? 20:08:59 drewc, some years ago i did 20:09:26 that's what i want to peval... a reflective CL 20:09:45 i don't remember the details anymore though... just the basic idea vaguely 20:11:22 hey nyef still there? 20:11:26 T 20:11:59 there's a pet peeve of mine regarding backtraces, let me dig it up 20:12:05 Uh-oh. 20:12:42 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/485717 20:13:56 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.10.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:14:09 tcr: and a pet peeve of mine: whenever I do ,l the command gets inserted in the repl history 20:14:21 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:14:23 fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:14:25 tcr: M-p shows (swank:operate-on-system-for-emacs "cffi" (quote load-op)) 20:14:39 that's intentional 20:14:43 I sort of took that as a feature, which I like. :) 20:14:43 ... scary. 20:14:46 Yeah that was once a wish from H4ns so he can restore the state of a previous session easily 20:14:48 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-10-30.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:01 how do I disable that ? 20:15:20 There's no builtin way to disable it other than hacking the source, iirc 20:15:36 I don't mind if you make it optional behaviour 20:15:47 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:20 -!- anton_v [~Miranda@87.252.227.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:35 (defun slime-repl-shortcut-eval-async (&rest args) (apply #'slime-eval-async)) 20:16:42 args 20:17:14 nyef: could you brainstorm on the technicalities involved? 20:18:17 tcr: We have backtrace-as-list, don't we? 20:18:29 well.. 20:19:14 It's not properly part of the backtrace for the thread, unless you want to view threads as alternate continuations executing in parallel with the main continuation. 20:19:36 stassats`: thanks :) 20:19:50 And that way lies madness, particularly with respect to dynamic bindings. 20:20:06 Ibacktrace-as-list is not enough, the list should contain the debug representation of frames. But I'm not sure how self-contained those are 20:20:24 They aren't self-contained at all. 20:20:32 that's what I thought :-( 20:21:12 fe[nl]ix: and the same sans -async 20:21:19 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:26 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 20:22:03 dnolen_ [~dnolen@209.131.113.150] has joined #lisp 20:22:15 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-32-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:19 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:24 What you could possibly do is to copy the frames over to the bottom of the new therad's stack and fix up the frame-pointers. 20:22:53 That should actually be sufficient to make the debug-info come out right. 20:23:03 why is having multiple null values (for example, treating both #f and () as false, but still separate values) a bad idea? 20:23:30 sykopomp: It makes testing for falsity more expensive, for starters. 20:23:30 dnolen__ [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 20:23:46 sykopomp: you can see this in JavaScript --- there are a whole bunch of falsy values that make a confusing mess. 20:23:49 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:49 -!- dnolen__ is now known as dnolen 20:24:15 sykopomp: why is having more than one value for nullity a good idea? 20:24:17 sykopomp: If you can, have a peek at the Crockford book on JavaScript (the little one --- I forget the name). 20:24:38 sykopomp: If you can't put your hands on a copy, remind me just before the tc-lispers meeting and I'll bring mine along. 20:24:43 Fade: I was thinking that being able to have a canonical 'false' value that doesn't also happen to be a list might be useful. 20:24:47 sykopomp: i can't figure out why anyone would think it a _good_ idea... you have an insight? 20:24:59 rpg: the good parts? 20:25:07 drewc: (push f 1) being an error, but (push () 1) being 'correct'. 20:25:07 'Javascript the Good Parts' probably 20:25:37 sykopomp: (when NIL ...) is still NIL? 20:26:02 drewc: so you can make a distinction between the objects. (append (null 'foo) (list 1 2 3)) *might* be considered a bit odd 20:26:04 sykopomp: i can understand why you want #F 20:26:24 i don't see why you want more than one false value.. 20:26:43 -!- dnolen_ [~dnolen@209.131.113.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:26:52 If you have a &key parameter which can legitimately be NIL it's a real pain in the ass if you have to pass those values down 20:26:56 drewc: well, I still think it's useful to treat the empty list as false. 20:27:13 and empty string? 20:27:14 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 20:27:15 tcr: that's what &key (foo nil foo-exists-p) is for 20:27:19 sykopomp: empty hash table? 20:27:26 sykopomp: (values) ? 20:27:31 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 20:27:36 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:38 drewc: yeah, it can get nasty, I agree 20:27:52 sykopomp: you used the word canonical earlier... i do not think it means what you think it means... ;) 20:27:58 not that it stops people from doing it (see JavaScript... or PHP) 20:28:09 dlowe: That doesn't help much if you have to pass it down 20:28:21 stassats`: yes, that's it. 20:28:43 drewc: Declared by the Catholic Church to be a saint. Are we thinking of different things? 20:28:58 -!- jollygood [~jollygood@129.71.215.161] has quit [Quit: jollygood] 20:29:05 sykopomp: people also smoke crack.... just because it's done doesn't mean it's a good idea :P 20:29:16 sykopomp: indeed... that's canonized 20:29:23 sykopomp: very different 20:29:35 drewc: no, but I wanted to make sure I understood why. Hence, asking. 20:29:39 drewc: it's an awesome idea! 20:29:41 Millions of crackheads agree.... Having at least four falsy values is good for your teeth. 20:30:11 sykopomp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical <--- 20:30:13 IIRC, JS has "", null, undefined, [], and false *all* as falsy. 20:30:24 Eat your heart out, perl! 20:30:25 drewc: they make Ubuntu? 20:31:01 rpg: false, 0, 0.0, "", "0", array(), new ClassWithNoSlots(), NULL, SimpleXML objects created from empty tags <-- PHP 20:31:33 head. hurt. 20:31:33 stassats`: that's the one :) 20:31:38 additionally, On/Off both work for the php config scripts. 20:31:51 (as well as 1/0) 20:31:59 (and I think "1"/"0") 20:32:22 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 20:32:59 well then. Why _not_ do things the scheme way and consider #f the only false value? What's the big advantage for CL's way? 20:33:11 sykopomp: backward compatibility. 20:33:13 I'd like if there would be #none which would be non-eq to nil, but which would evaluate to false 20:33:15 does anybody really have a problem dealing with nil being false as well as the empty list? 20:33:37 You don't really need a distinguished #f if you have multiple-values.... 20:33:42 or is this just a red herring for irc? :) 20:33:43 Fade: case 20:33:55 hrmn 20:34:08 Fade: having to make special checks for everything that is willing to accept a list 20:34:12 (values successp list-value) 20:35:56 sykopomp: I'd like it if more things evaluate to false 20:36:09 sykopomp: like empty sequences in general 20:36:31 fe[nl]ix pasted "NIL and ECASE" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94379 20:36:45 there was a funny write-up somewhere about #f and NIL that I can't seem to find 20:37:02 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:37:14 sykopomp: but what I'd really want, I guess, is a Maybe monad :-) 20:37:22 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:37:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-61-138.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:37:30 tcr: how does the Maybe monad work? >_> 20:37:39 Is it for reasons of compilation that a first class function can not be called without (funcall my-func) 20:37:55 ie (my-func) 20:38:04 TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 20:38:08 no 20:38:22 sykopomp: Kind of like nested (when-lets ...), execution stops as soon as one of the variable init forms returns None 20:38:23 that's because of the different namespaces 20:38:35 fe[nl]ix: interesting 20:38:58 stassats`: cheers, I was curious 20:39:12 cataska [~cataska@60-248-141-225.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:15 Fade: that's because NIL is the empty list 20:39:17 tcr: I think I need an actual example. 20:39:30 yeah, I see that. weird edge case. 20:39:41 For graph searches, thinking of trying to visualise it from that of the CL perspective. Are there any good libraries for that? Been kinda balancing between trying to use mcclim or cl-opengl 20:39:46 sykopomp: You know erik naggum's whereas? 20:40:11 tcr: nope. I think I've seen it mentioned, though. 20:40:25 deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:42:12 sykopomp: there is a nice example of the maybe monad in C somewhere, and also in scheme, from comp.lang.scheme. 20:42:27 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-39-35.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:57 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 20:44:14 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:45:33 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-38-149.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:45 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-38-149.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:46:19 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 20:49:44 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:52:50 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:53:07 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:53:10 nm I think I answered my own question, will go with mcclim, since it has drawing options...since the representation is only 2d, it should work well enough. 20:53:57 *stassats`* is currently drawing animations through lispbuilder-sdl 20:55:19 -!- splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-lbeacuxmrphdpscr] has quit [] 20:55:36 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:55:52 stassats`: Hmm, interesting, can't say i've heard of that but it looks very straightforward 20:56:02 -!- holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:56:38 sykopomp: i know of a Maybe monad in scheme implemenation... i find 20:56:59 yeah, i'm trying to illustrate orbital mechanics through it 20:57:01 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:16 drewc: I'm also wondering how you're using monads for LOL. 20:57:31 holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:51 sykopomp: i'm not using monads in LoL :P . I am using them in something new though 20:57:53 Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo7.128.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:58 lisppaste: url? 20:57:58 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 20:57:58 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:58:04 drewc: FTW? 20:58:45 drewc pasted "Maybe monad in Scheme" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94381 20:59:15 sykopomp: yeah, i'm using the continuation monad to implement send/suspend basically 21:00:04 paste was from : http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.functional/msg/2fde5545c6657c81 21:03:57 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:04:04 sykopomp: the Maybe monad is just a way of propagating a value that represents FALSE or FAIL through a chain of computations... basically error handler by checking return values, but the check in implicit, handled by the monad plumbing. 21:04:28 check is explicit... i need my coffee now :| 21:05:30 -!- borisc [~borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:06:00 borisc [~borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 21:07:09 wtf, "Passwords may not be longer than 30 characters" 21:08:03 -!- borisc [~borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has quit [Client Quit] 21:08:41 borisc [~borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 21:10:54 you have a password longer than 30 chars? 21:11:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 21:12:16 I don't actually memorize them 21:13:19 fe[nl]ix: evidently, wtf 21:13:38 that's a dead giveaway that they're not hashing their passwords, though 21:14:28 dlowe: or using old crypt()-style encryption? 21:14:54 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 21:15:00 Fade: nowadays I generally generate a 40 chars random password for every site I subscribe. I didn't expect this from Livejournal :D 21:15:24 ah. you just manage them /w your browser? 21:15:33 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:09 triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-131-251.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:16:11 yes 21:16:12 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:18 *Fade* nods 21:16:28 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:17:04 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:17:24 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:41 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:19:21 DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:32 -!- borisc [~borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has left #lisp 21:19:35 borisc [~borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 21:20:40 -!- alec [~aberryman@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:42 Axius [~ghi@109.97.43.179] has joined #lisp 21:22:01 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:22:52 -!- Axius [~ghi@109.97.43.179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:05 Is there any lightweight web server gateway abstraction in CL like Python PEP333, or Clojure Ring, or Ruby Rack? 21:24:52 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-79-212.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:25:04 triyo: what are those ? 21:25:56 triyo: no, there's not. The closest thing is the backend protocol in UCW. 21:26:43 triyo: if we ever do decide on something like that, it will be hunchentoot compatible, so just use hunchentoot 21:27:18 gah, where's minion? 21:28:59 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:29:04 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:04 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:42 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75689f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:01 drewc: reason I ask is because I'd be interested in putting something together similar in CL and have my reference implementation interface with hunchentoot. 21:30:11 triyo: "web serer gateway abstraction" is a proxy or what exactly? 21:32:11 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-156-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 21:32:11 hypno, fe[nl]ix: it's just a protocol that abstracts talking to web servers, essentially. 21:33:00 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:33:40 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:34:09 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 21:35:21 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36:23 triyo: the prior art is the ucw backend protocol, which is near the bottom of this : 21:36:25 http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw-core/src/rerl/protocol.lisp 21:36:44 paste is down? 21:36:58 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:04 felideon: it listens! 21:37:06 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:37:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:37:54 (give it a second, i restarted the process in an effort to get minion back) 21:38:48 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:06 heh, gotcha 21:39:22 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:00 still no minion :\ 21:40:04 drewc: uwc protocol doesn't seem to have any support for middleware components unless different terminology is used. 21:40:47 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 21:41:13 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:14 triyo: what is a middleware component? 21:42:19 *drewc* can't keep up with the lingo anymore... needs ESL classes. 21:42:30 Enterprise as a Second Language 21:43:07 middleware is implemented as a higher-order function that takes one or more handlers and configuration options as arguments and returns a new handler with the desired compound behavior. 21:44:30 So you could have, first middleware function add session handling and next one hanf 21:44:31  21:44:36 oops.. 21:44:44 drewc: how portable is UCW? should it run fine on CCL 21:45:08 felideon: Fade has it running on CCL, and unknown_lamer is also a CCL user IIRC 21:45:35 triyo: UCW has a dispatcher protocol as well. 21:45:49 ucw is fine on CCL 21:46:12 thanks 21:46:14 I even have a patch to get LoL loaded in ccl. 21:46:17 triyo: so does hunchentoot, and i just wrote another myself. 21:46:24 'course, it's speculative atm. 21:46:51 Has anyone upgraded css-lite? Or, are there any superior libraries floating around? 21:47:27 puh, hard time installing iolib 21:47:39 milanj: problems ? 21:47:48 librt.so issues 21:47:59 /usr/lib64/librt.so: symbol __librt_disable_asynccancel, version GLIBC_PRIVATE not defined in file libc.so.6 with link time reference. 21:48:18 wow 21:48:29 what distribution ? 21:48:36 suse 10.0 21:48:45 triyo: http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw-core/src/rerl/basic-dispatchers.lisp 21:49:02 milanj: 64bit ? 21:49:06 yes 21:49:11 milanj: or mixed ? 21:49:11 drewc: so to confirm, this can handle http request, send it through all middleware handlers (in form of high-order functions) and the compounded http response gets returned? 21:49:21 -!- prxq [~mommer@g227075007.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: good night] 21:49:41 triyo: no, you are confusing functionality with implementation 21:49:46 fe[nl]ix, 2.6.13-15-smp #1 SMP Tue Sep 13 14:56:15 UTC 2005 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux 21:49:50 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-32-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:42 triyo: and it does a _lot_ more than that. I suggest you see what UCW has to offer, it's mature and complete 21:51:22 drewc: thanks. I'll spend time look at uwc in more detail. 21:51:28 triyo: ucw 21:51:37 :) 21:51:51 milanj: is there a /usr/lib/librt.so ? 21:51:55 yes 21:52:05 and /usr/lib64/librt.so 21:52:14 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:18 are they the same ? 21:53:01 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:34 no 21:53:35 -!- triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-131-251.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:46 triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-131-251.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:53:58 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:54:03 ok, so you're using a multilib distro 21:54:07 "48162 2005-09-09 16:31 /lib64/librt-2.3.5.so" and "45340 2005-09-09 19:39 /lib/librt-2.3.5.so" 21:54:28 milanj: what CL implementation are you using ? 21:54:53 sbcl 21:55:03 1.0.29.54.rc1 21:55:07 -!- deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 21:55:07 32bit ? 21:55:13 but cant compile with ccl 1.4 also 21:55:15 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:55:31 64bit 21:55:51 ferada [~user@e179239149.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:14 hi, i have a problem with iterate and fare-matcher: http://paste.lisp.org/display/94385 21:56:16 so iolib is trying to load the 32bit librt.so on a 64bit SBCL 21:56:18 anyone seen that one? 21:58:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-61-138.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: powering off] 21:58:32 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-165-52.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:59:08 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:00:29 milanj: in src/syscalls/ffi-functions-unix.lisp, please change "librt.so" to "/usr/lib64/librt.so" 22:00:42 ferada: just guessing, but i think you have two codewalkers fighting, and iterate's is winning. 22:00:43 until I find a better way to do it 22:01:15 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 22:01:17 francogrex [~user@91.180.213.84] has joined #lisp 22:01:22 ferada: there is a really nice iteration facility that was added to CL as part of ANSI... you should try it :P 22:01:58 drewc: But series didn't make it into ANSI  22:01:59 drewc: yeah, with loop it works fine, since it doesn't expand inside normal forms 22:02:19 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:20 sellout: i said iteration, and i meant it! :) 22:02:29 heh 22:02:54 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-118-71.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 22:02:56 alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has joined #lisp 22:03:03 RaceCondition: paste the error here I guess 22:03:44 felideon: you mean http://dpaste.com/154674/ ? 22:03:55 hmm 22:04:10 /usr/lib64/librt.so: symbol __librt_disable_asynccancel, version GLIBC_PRIVATE not defined in file libc.so.6 with link time reference. 22:04:32 RaceCondition: hrm, that's a new one 22:04:40 milanj: try /usr/lib/librt.so then 22:04:54 Fade: have you had any issues with usockets on CCL? 22:04:56 hi, I'm using READ-LINE server-side to read a connected socket stream. Everything works fine for a while, but I get a SB-INT:SIMPLE-STREAM-ERROR \ couldn't read from #: \ Connection timed out yet I can't find a timeout parameter anywhere besides SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-MAKE-STREAM in which I have passed :timeout nil 22:05:25 egn: It's a kernel parameter somewhere. 22:05:30 -!- mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-uuevbptkpmczjezx] has left #lisp 22:06:01 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-32-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:06:03 felideon: I had issues with the dependency on cl-utilities because of split-sequence at first, but once I nuked every fasl on the disk, the features hack seemed to work. 22:06:11 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:06:18 nyef: sorry, actual Linux kernel parameter for socket timeouts or an sbcl parameter? 22:06:21 Fade: right 22:06:22 egn: ISTR that that message means that the remote host stopped responding to TCP messages in a timely fashion. 22:06:57 I really wish cl-utilities hadn't forked/shadowed split-sequence, which is used in a thousand places and systems. 22:07:08 Fade: hehe 22:07:26 a-s [~user@93.112.117.229] has joined #lisp 22:07:49 i don't see why it's there and not in alexandria! 22:07:52 the simplest fix is to change the splitsequence usocket uses back to the regular source. 22:08:18 yes, alexandria should absorb split sequence. 22:08:20 but the features hack with :split-sequence-deprecated does work. 22:08:23 now it tells me that file does not exist (and it's there for sure) 22:08:34 -!- francogrex [~user@91.180.213.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:08:36 I definitely don't think cl-utilities should contain split-sequence. 22:08:40 -!- sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 22:09:13 interestingly, including split-sequence is mentioned explicitly as a non-goal :) 22:09:17 and on centos 5.3 i get some libtest error ... puh 22:09:36 I'd be okay with split-sequence getting absorbed into alexandria 22:10:00 milanj: try to compile and link a dummy c program to librt . does that work ? 22:10:07 *hefner* might have used split-sequence for the first time last night. 22:10:30 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:10:40 at least they have "(initially, at least)" in that paragraph ;) 22:11:01 hefner: really? I used it like a million times by now 22:11:13 I use it quite a bit, too. 22:12:18 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:24 I think I'm a better programmer for having written the loop/position/subseq combo several dozen times now 22:12:41 hefner is a minimalist 22:12:51 francogrex [~user@91.180.213.84] has joined #lisp 22:13:14 some day I might even use regexps 22:13:23 :( 22:13:43 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@82.174.238.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:08 /usr/lib/librt.so: could not read symbols: File in wrong format 22:14:08 /usr/lib/librt.so: could not read symbols: File in wrong format 22:14:08 /usr/lib/librt.so: could not read symbols: File in wrong format 22:14:08 /usr/lib/librt.so: could not read symbols: File in wrong format 22:14:10 ups 22:14:15 sorry 22:14:20 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 22:14:28 -!- UnwashedMeme1 [~nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14:39 milanj: does (sb-alien:load-shared-object "librt.so") work ? 22:14:42 i'm lagged obviously 22:14:46 -!- triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-131-251.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:14:59 noup 22:15:15 triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-131-251.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:15:20 Hi, I come again with same question but I need this info: Does anyone know of an existance of a relational database project completely based on CL (meaning no SQL in it)? 22:15:41 loading lib64/librt.so work though 22:15:53 milanj: wtf 22:16:20 francogrex: why do you want a relational database? 22:17:12 to store his relationships, of course. 22:17:45 francogrex: you could trivially build such a thing on top of rucksack, which is a pure CL db 22:17:45 yes to store my relationship.. rolls eyes 22:17:50 arthurschopenhau [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has joined #lisp 22:18:17 francogrex: but usually people write db's in lisp to get away from the relational model 22:18:19 fe[nl]ix, nevermind this, meaby server is screwed or somehing, i'm trying to install it on different server with centos 5.2 22:18:22 but: http://paste.lisp.org/display/94386 22:18:42 -!- ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:20:52 btw. linux suck bigtime, especially if you are stuck with servers with old distro version, blah 22:20:54 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:21:18 milanj: Consider the alternative: Imagine being stuck with a server with NT 3.5? 22:21:20 -!- triyo [~triyo@dsl-245-131-251.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: triyo] 22:21:23 drewc: ok are those cl db's similar to say oracle's (you add info in different fields and query the db at anytime)? I mean does one need to load the db into memory everytime we switch on the PC and CL system? 22:21:38 kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:48 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-10-30.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:22:05 milanj: I must go now. please post that error on the CFFI mailing list 22:22:13 nyef, hah, cant imagine that 22:22:17 cmm [~cmm@109.64.10.30] has joined #lisp 22:22:18 fe[nl]ix, ok, thanks for your time 22:23:46 francogrex: What problem are you actually trying to solve here? 22:24:13 francogrex: No, these are not relational databases, very different from oracle. You don't add info to fields, you just create objects. And no, rucksack in not an in-memory database. Nor is Manardb. 22:24:25 francogrex: if you want oracle, use postgresql 22:24:27 Thus far I've put together "Oracle, but written in Common Lisp, and without SQL", which doesn't really make much sense. 22:25:20 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:25:22 postgresql was originally written in lisp actually, and it has an object system that is quite cool and clos-y 22:25:28 nyef: why not? what I'm after is a db where you input and output (query) without loading the whole db into memory every time 22:25:31 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:58 postgresql and the SQL bit? 22:26:03 So... -none- of your stated criteria have anything to do with the requirements? 22:26:07 <[df]> what I don't understand about 'persistance' frameworks (and admittedly my only experience with them is limited to java) is that they appear to blithely ignore the problem of two difference processes concurrently manipulating instances of the same 'persistant' object 22:26:39 [df]: so don't do that 22:26:47 why should frameworks be concerned about that? 22:27:20 nyef: just those criteria: no loading into the ram everytime 22:27:32 <[df]> well my usual reason for wanting a DBMS is to have a shared backend that many frontend processes can access 22:27:36 <[df]> to what should I do instead? 22:27:47 does it make sense? 22:28:26 [df]: you do exactly like a DBMS does... have a single point of entry to the actual files on disk... it's called a database management system :P 22:29:29 which consists of what? a big lock around all your objects? 22:29:30 <[df]> are you saying have a single backend program (written in lisp or whatever) which uses the persistance system? 22:29:32 egn: 22:29:37 ooops! 22:29:44 cupe_ [~cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has joined #lisp 22:30:13 -!- cupe [~cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:30:39 [df]: if that's your use case, that's what i'd do. you need to manage concurrent access _somehow_. 22:30:47 hefner: to start 22:30:52 sure! 22:31:12 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:15 hefner: i wrote a system where that was exactly the strategy. :) 22:31:15 francogrex: well, it very vague. the system itself may or may not cache a lot of the data for example - say a file buffer cache. but if i understand you correctly, you want a system which use very little memory during transactions and generally use the disk directly? and the interface to this whole thing is without SQL? 22:31:17 <[df]> I do, but DBMSs have already put the effort in to do it for me 22:31:28 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:31:30 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 22:31:32 <[df]> (to some extent) 22:31:33 [df]: then use a DBMS? 22:32:04 or wait till someone else does a DBMS for a lisp persistence system and use that. 22:32:11 it's in my queue somewhere 22:32:12 <[df]> well this is why I don't understand using a persistance system as a frontend to a dbms 22:32:23 i don't get that either 22:32:23 hypno: yes exactly 22:32:25 <[df]> but then I guess that's not what rucksack is, so never mind 22:32:44 df: you need to deal with it on the application level, which knows how to merge changes, whether it should be optimistic about such concurrent updates not to happen or not, etc. 22:32:46 francogrex: berkley db comes to mind. some praise it, others hate it. i've used it very little tho. :( 22:33:12 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-137-124.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 22:33:39 [df]: i think that's a horrible hand-wavey 'look i'm using objects because i'm ascared of DBs' thing.. i use DBMS's when i need them, i have a very simple o/r layer i use on top of postgres that has served me well. 22:34:05 *hefner* is scared of DBs 22:34:10 <[df]> I think we're in agreement then :) 22:34:46 <[df]> it's always scary when I meet java programmers who use sql databases as a backend but don't know sql 22:34:59 francogrex: AllegroCache, heh? 22:36:54 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 22:37:20 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:37:58 francogrex: use rucksack, problem solved 22:38:11 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 22:38:39 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 22:39:27 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:40:03 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:40:41 hypno; drewc ; ok i'll try thx 22:42:37 -!- rdd`` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:18 Rucksack is a persistence library for Common Lisp 22:43:27 is that a database? 22:44:20 no, it's a persistence library. a database is a collection of data. 22:44:50 -!- maelcoluim [~maelcolui@host81-102-111-71.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:45:12 one might put a database in rucksack, as you can put kittens in an oven, but that don't make em biscuits. 22:45:27 hah 22:46:02 don't torture me like that, it's hours until breakfast 22:46:18 ok but then from the bits of readings, this "cache" thing takes care of accessing the data without loading into memory it seems 22:46:33 francogrex: are you dealing with a lot of important data, or this just for play or what? 22:46:35 maelcoluim [~maelcolui@client-86-25-219-171.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:43 gotta love drewc's analogies. first it's shit in soup, now it's kittens in an oven 22:46:47 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:24 hypno, I have a lotta data; zillions of records; but also to test (because I do have oracle already, I mean my company does) 22:47:24 -!- gibsonf1` [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:41 ferada` [~user@e179234065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:00 gibsonf1` [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:17 -!- TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:48:25 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.240] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:48:53 francogrex: ok, so you have a backup and you are not responsible for it, etc? in that case, try rucksack as drewc said. :) 22:49:08 yeah, otherwise stick with oracle! 22:49:26 *drewc* is betting on rucksack for a startup actually 22:50:57 -!- gibsonf1` [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:51:14 -!- ferada [~user@e179239149.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:51:23 ok rucksack it is. I need to undersand it well though; the tutorial seems to be directed to those who already know all about the so called persistence libraries 22:53:14 francogrex: btw, just to make it perfectly clear: RDBMS without SQL is an idiotic idea 22:53:29 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:36 SQL is _the_ relational query language, doing anything else is seven kinds of wrong 22:53:42 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 22:53:56 hmm 22:54:07 now, there are plenty of non-relational DBs. But these don't have SQL obviously 22:54:45 mathrick: bullshit. Tutorial D 22:54:49 so much the better; actually, i don't know wha are the advatnages of relational versus non relational 22:54:54 francogrex, there's perec which is persistent CLOS mapped to RDBMS efficiently 22:55:11 drewc: is that a name of the DBMS? 22:55:21 mathrick: SQL has nothing to do with relational databases per-se... it barely qualifies as a relational query language 22:55:38 mathrick: no, it's the name of a properly relational query language. 22:55:43 maelcolu1m [~maelcolui@client-80-5-175-86.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:53 perec 22:56:19 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-132.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:56:29 mathrick:http://www.thethirdmanifesto.com/ 22:56:34 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-perec/index-old.shtml 22:56:42 drewc: I can't see any other model where SQL would be even remotely applicable... and if you do RDMBS, and accept all of the tradeoffs coming with the model, making it instantly and fundamentally incompatible with last 20 years of tooling is just stupid 22:57:15 -!- maelcoluim [~maelcolui@client-86-25-219-171.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:57:29 mathrick: you are missing the point, SQL is hardly a relational language, and it is certainly not the only relations query language, nor is it the best. 22:58:00 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:58:08 the notion i've heard from a few places is that sql was the "user-friendly" language for relatively untrained people to use databases somewhat effectively. 22:58:11 mathrick: many of the tradoffs you think are fundamental to RDBMS's are in fact limitations in SQL, not in the relational model. 22:58:14 *Xach* doesn't know the history behind that, though 22:58:17 drewc: it's not in any way related to bestness. It's related to its absolute monopoly in the area 22:58:50 francogrex: btw, just to make it perfectly clear: RDBMS without SQL 22:58:50 is an idiotic idea 22:59:03 mathrick: to which i said 'bullshit' 22:59:48 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:00:10 Anyone implemented X extensions in CLX? 23:00:12 drewc: does this tutorial D have any introductory texts available online? 23:00:17 francogrex, the new repo of cl-perec is found at http://dwim.hu/ and is called hu.dwim.perec 23:00:59 ok; but I think for the time being I'm gonna explore rucksack first. 23:01:05 maelcolu1m: I think Xof has done that. 23:01:20 This random access to files etc... all are great features... 23:01:21 mathrick: on that link i sent you there is a tonne of information, some of it introductory. 23:01:23 levente_meszaros: you guys should submit patches to the clbuild crew so darcs doesn't spew everytime one of your systems is called on. 23:01:35 actually I like the idea of random access 23:01:52 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:02:01 drewc: yeah, taking a second look, but it's rather hard to read, that page 23:02:04 mathrick: I was just reading about it in _SQL and Relational Theory_ by C.J. Date, I'd never heard about it previously. drewc seems to be remarkably well read. :) 23:02:11 s/it/Tutorial D/ 23:02:32 yeah, it's somewhat scary 23:02:34 -!- arthurschopenhau [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:02:52 hmm, about random access... do you know a C (without the L :) library which provides random access compressed streams? is there such a thing? 23:02:52 I know gilberth have and noss are they still about? 23:02:55 francogrex: it's missing a parallel transactions right now, that's the only real issue. there are a few of us working on various implementations, i think we've all decided that STM is the right solution 23:03:00 kencausey: but I've been in #lisp for long enough not to let it intimidate me :) 23:03:07 ;) 23:03:13 kencausey: i like to read :) 23:03:17 kencausey: there are too many scarily competent people here overall 23:03:26 oh ok; drewc; you're developing rucksack as well then 23:03:29 Only reason I hang here 23:03:45 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:03:49 Fade, unfortunately we don't know much about clbuild, nor do we use it... 23:04:09 francogrex: not per-se, but i'm using it heavily. rucksack is written in such a manner that one need not be developing it to extend it.. viva la CLOS! 23:04:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:05:28 -!- holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:55 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:07:00 drewc; cool, but don't you think if you develop features for rucksack they are better be published/updated within the library, like that people using it don't need to reinvent wheels every time 23:07:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:08:19 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 23:08:31 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:08:37 francogrex: they need not be within the library, but can be shared in some other way too. 23:09:15 Xach: yes sure 23:10:25 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.53] has joined #lisp 23:10:32 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-79-212.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:11:50 -!- HET2 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:12:10 cantor [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has joined #lisp 23:12:30 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:48 francogrex: i don't plan to hord them to myself, i just also don't think they need to be in the main repo if they are extensions. 23:13:04 ok 23:13:36 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-118-71.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: more code] 23:14:29 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:14:30 -!- francogrex [~user@91.180.213.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:05 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:56 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-92-2.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:16:00 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 23:16:00 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:16:04 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:16:37 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 23:17:23 -!- alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has quit [Quit: alama] 23:17:50 Xach: Do you use SBCL on OS X/x86-64? 23:20:51 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-137-124.vodafone.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 23:23:05 -!- cantor [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has left #lisp 23:23:10 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 23:23:35 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:25:05 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:26:21 -!- ferada` [~user@e179234065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:26:38 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:27:34 cantor [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has joined #lisp 23:27:57 Guys anyone know how to turn on syntax highlighting on slime REPL 23:28:18 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:43 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-7550.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 23:29:33 Somebody please tell me how to turn on syntax highlighting on emacs slime REPL 23:30:06 cantor: use slime-scratch and C-j maybe? I don't know the answer to your original question though. 23:30:16 cantor: you just asked the same question worded slightly differently 2 minutes apart. don't. 23:30:26 and that too :P 23:30:52 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:00 nyef: yes 23:31:04 hey drew I frustrated enough today if you don't know the answer to the question just be silent 23:31:07 nyef: actually, i don't know. let me check. 23:31:11 Sorry to be rude 23:31:19 IF that sounded rude 23:31:22 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 23:31:40 nyef: yes, i do. my fixnums are huge! 23:31:43 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 23:31:57 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 23:32:05 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 23:32:12 arthurschopenhau [~quassel@129.123.242.224] has joined #lisp 23:32:46 -!- arthurschopenhau is now known as cantor 23:33:17 I think it's one of those days. 23:33:20 nyef: can i help you test something? (might not be possible immediately) 23:33:30 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:33:43 *Xach* hopes to hack more later 23:36:03 -!- milanj [~milan@79.101.180.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:36:26 minion: Tell xach about paste 94371. 23:36:35 Hrm... 23:36:43 minion: paste 94371? 23:36:57 nyef: minion isn't around. 23:36:57 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/94371 23:37:09 ... someone -else- is minion. 23:37:11 I still had it open, watching it earlier was impressive :) 23:37:51 (Have a look at the whois: It's not our bot!) 23:38:13 nyef: your bot regged with freenode? If so just ghost the account 23:38:26 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:38:43 well actually whoever runs minion ^-^. 23:39:06 nixeagle: I believe it's registered, but it takes an eternity to restart it and will take down lisppaste as well. 23:39:39 nyef: oh, is it lisp? you need to ghost the account on freenode (eg whoever is using that nick) 23:39:50 then tell it to reconnect in the repl 23:40:19 Yeah, but the easy way to tell it to reconnect is C-d, which kills the process and lets the automatic startup fix everything. 23:40:20 ghosting will forcibly disconnect them and let you run your bot as that nick again. (I'm assuming you own minion) 23:40:32 I don't own minion, but I am one of the maintainers. 23:40:52 Anyway, I'm not up for it right now, but perhaps in a little bit. 23:40:56 nyef: i tried restarting minion hours ago, no dice. 23:40:58 nyef: ok you know the bot's password? do /msg nickserv ghost minion in the server buffer. 23:41:08 nixeagle: Yes, I know how to ghost someone. 23:41:13 oh I'm sorry 23:41:26 *nixeagle* goes back to hiding in his corner ;) 23:41:28 And should be able to find the password without -too- much difficulty. 23:41:59 -!- kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:42:08 drewc: nixeagle has pointed out that it is because someone else is using the nick 23:42:10 drewc: No dice because someone else is currently using the nick, and minion isn't savvy enough to use an alternate nick and ghost. 23:42:25 oic 23:42:32 don't we have it registered? 23:42:36 Yes, we do. 23:42:44 or maybe it was nyef 23:42:46 drewc: if its regged you need to ghost them, then nick to it. 23:42:50 oh i see, ok 23:42:52 I'll take a look at the situation after dinner. 23:43:09 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:43:10 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-39-35.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:43:45 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:43:52 nyef: re #94371: nice find. 23:43:55 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:44:23 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has joined #lisp 23:44:23 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has quit [Changing host] 23:44:23 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:44:35 Skewb [Skewb@83.231.102.33] has joined #lisp 23:44:38 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 23:44:43 Hi there. 23:45:40 Hey my question is how to make syntax highlighting work on CL-USER> thing on emacs 23:45:51 Does anyone know? 23:46:57 Yes, someone knows. 23:47:05 nyef: patch & rebuild and report back, eh? 23:47:06 Is it not working? 23:48:09 *Xach* doesn't know, but doesn't really miss it either 23:49:31 Yeah tell me then 23:50:25 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:50:35 This problem is bugging me, Is anyone going to help me or do I have to spend another 8 hours reading vague postings scattered on the internet 23:50:54 cantor: Hard to tell, but you're working hard to ensure the latter is what happens. 23:51:43 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:39 Xach: Basically, yeah. Checking before-and-after on the test suite would be good as well. 23:53:30 there's a place in downtown los angeles called Cantor's 23:53:31 cantor: short story emacs side, your highlighting is controlled vie syntax tables. If you don't use presentations, you should be able to just overlay the lispmode syntax table onto slime. 23:53:47 they serve really good saurkraut and knox 23:54:08 cantor: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/elisp.html#Syntax-Tables will be of great use. 23:54:09 Wooh I didn't get that 23:54:15 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177153148.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: lispm] 23:54:23 Okay let me take a look 23:54:26 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:55:26 please do fix your attitude though ^-^. I know this stuff because I got hooked onto lisp from emacs lisp. I know almost that whole manual :). 23:55:47 nyef: I'll try that sometime soon. 23:55:59 Xach: Thanks. 23:56:02 nyef: probably the next time my backtrace gets fucked :) 23:56:06 I see 23:56:17 Xach: Easy enough to happen: (+ 1 nil) should cause it. 23:56:40 heyhey [~4f9abcd4@gateway/web/freenode/x-jpzlcuulsvltfpzd] has joined #lisp 23:56:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 23:56:59 cantor: an easy way to demonstrate, in the slime repl, do M-x lisp-mode 23:57:13 okay 23:57:17 Let me try that 23:57:50 GeeWiz My holy freaaking GOOOODD, it worked 23:58:10 Thats all I wanted to know, I spend since 3 o clock since morning 23:58:24 even reinstalling the goddamn emacs 23:58:31 wedgeV [~wedge@adsl-69-232-231-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:41 cantor: only problem is now slime mode is deactivated so I doubt the repl "works" 23:58:42 I fucking broke my table lamp 23:58:47 Since this wasn't working 23:59:13 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:59:38 no the repl doesn't work 23:59:50 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: gz]