00:00:11 gigabot: tell drewc about that dead sexy book 00:00:11 drewc: Pardon? 00:00:16 Bah. Sorry guys. 00:00:36 must resist temptation 00:01:13 gigabot: tell drewc about that dead sexy book 00:01:13 drewc: Practical Common Lisp is the sexiest book I know of. 00:01:17 gigabot: tell minion about that dead sexy book 00:01:17 Sorry, I'm not allowed to talk to him. 00:01:22 Tada! 00:01:31 nice 00:01:56 minion is she! 00:01:57 gigamonkey: tell lisppaste url 00:02:03 err 00:02:05 drewc: no 00:02:08 gigabot: tell lisppaste url 00:02:09 Sorry--my brain is still under construction. 00:02:24 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:02:39 err... i probably shouldn't try that 00:02:43 How about "gigabot: Tell gigabot about that-dead-sexy-book?" 00:02:45 gigamonkey: gigabot could ask minion when it doesn't know an anwer. 00:03:07 (and cache the answer for the next time :-)) 00:03:39 nyef: yeah, let me put that in. Thanks. 00:04:09 I didn't want to actually try it in case of a software laser. 00:04:14 nyef: thanks for not trying that. 00:04:42 Okay, let me test it so I know it works. 00:04:47 gigabot: tell gigabot about x 00:04:47 Eh, I already know. 00:04:58 what could have happened? 00:04:58 gigabot: Tell me about x? 00:04:59 Pardon? 00:05:10 gigabot lied! 00:05:23 gigabot: hello gigabot hello 00:05:23 Whoops--I don't quite get you. 00:05:46 heyhey: Well, gigabot might tell gigabot something that caused gigabot to tell gigabot something that caused gigabot to tell gigabot something that caused... Well, hopefully you get the idea. 00:06:08 minion: Posix me harder! 00:06:13 Posix me harder: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 00:06:17 minion: more posix? 00:06:21 stassats: maybe, he just doesn't want to tell nyef. 00:06:22 more posix: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 00:06:25 Hrm... 00:06:27 WTF? 00:06:51 borism [~boris@213-35-234-36-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 00:07:14 pjb: actually, I was thinking of having gigabot watch for all of minion's interactions so he could suck up minion's knowledge that way. 00:07:48 gigamonkey: You might have an easier time with a copy of the sd-file and raiding cliki yourself. 00:07:53 so the bot is already smarter than humans if it listens to itself while speaking 00:07:53 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-24-234-246-31.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:07:54 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:20 nyef: the sd-file is minion's brain? 00:08:25 Where can I get it? 00:08:30 fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 00:08:58 What access do you have on clnet? 00:09:17 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:09:37 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:39 nyef: dunno. I probably had an account many years ago. But I'm sure my GPG key is long gone. 00:09:41 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 00:10:14 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 00:10:17 That's a pity, as the master file is on clnet, and it would be easy to copy around there. 00:10:29 -!- heyhey [~4f91f0b6@gateway/web/freenode/x-svkjtqvsrkphrhkd] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:10:31 Can you just email it to me? 00:10:40 gigabot: tell me about minion 00:10:40 Minion is my older cousin. 00:11:02 minion: ucw? 00:11:03 ucw: UnCommon Web is a Common Lisp web application development framework. http://www.cliki.net/ucw 00:11:11 ok... we lost cliki for a second there .. 00:11:17 it's back 00:11:19 Hunh. Only 44k? 00:11:24 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:11:32 gigabot: what is lisp? 00:11:32 Around here, "Lisp" generally refers to Common Lisp or possibly to the larger family of languages. 00:11:48 gigabot: is scheme a lisp? 00:11:48 Pardon? 00:11:50 does lisp have anything like 'it', as ml does? 00:11:50 gigabot: what is scheme? 00:11:50 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 00:11:54 *Fare* published asdf 1.591. If one person is to disagree with my design choices, janderson is a good person for that person to be. 00:12:10 bjorkintosh: i don't know about ML, but extended LOOP has an "it" 00:12:26 minion: brucio? 00:12:27 brucio: A prolific blogger and Lisp user, who now uses Arc: http://brucio.blogspot.com/ 00:12:28 okay. 00:12:40 gigamonkey: PCL has become my most valuable lisp resource. Thank you for writing it! 00:12:41 only extended LOOP? Isn't that in CLHS loop by default? 00:12:59 Fare: i mean extended as opposed to simple loop. 00:13:01 fatblueduck, is the book that good? 00:13:04 (loop (print 10)) vs (loop do (print 10)) 00:13:12 i'm still reading gentle introduction. 00:13:16 bjorkintosh: yes! 00:13:19 hmm. 00:13:31 gigamonkey: Email address? 00:14:01 bjorkintosh: the pacing is not like other programming books... when you've gone past chapter 4 you'll begin to appreciate it. 00:14:07 gigabot: Is Scheme a Lisp? 00:14:07 For some values of Lisp. 00:14:08 gigabot: Is Scheme a Lisp? 00:14:09 For some values of Lisp. 00:14:10 gigabot: Is Scheme a Lisp? 00:14:10 On alternate Thursdays. 00:14:11 really? 00:14:12 gigabot: Is Scheme a Lisp? 00:14:13 On alternate Thursdays. 00:14:15 gigabot: Is Scheme a Lisp? 00:14:15 On alternate Thursdays. 00:14:17 gigabot: Is Scheme a Lisp? 00:14:17 hmm. chapter 4. let me see... 00:14:17 No. 00:14:30 scheme is an algol. 00:14:30 nyef: peter@gigamonkeys.com 00:14:30 kgn [~kgn@129-97-159-210.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 00:14:32 i don't know why though. 00:14:33 I don't know what changed about SLIME or my .emacs, but when I start SLIME, I no longer get the repl, only the inferior-lisp 00:14:40 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:14:40 gigabot: Is Scheme a Lisp? 00:14:40 For some values of Lisp. 00:14:45 also arnesi complains about there not being inspect-for-emacs 00:14:57 and for some values of Scheme. 00:15:04 Scheme has multiple values, too, these days. 00:15:23 konr [~user@201.82.133.89] has joined #lisp 00:15:25 gigabot: Sent. 00:15:26 Sorry--my brain is still under construction. 00:15:31 Err... 00:15:35 That's irritating. 00:15:36 Hmmmm. He might need a different name. 00:15:38 hehe 00:15:41 Fare: is your slime up to date? 00:15:48 terabot! 00:15:54 oh 00:16:00 How about "squire"? Is that taken? 00:16:01 i've read you wrong 00:16:10 Fare: add (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) to .emacs 00:16:24 -!- gigabot is now known as factotum 00:16:31 so PCL is a good next after toureztky? 00:16:39 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-145.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:16:41 apparently 00:17:13 bjorkintosh: I haven't read toureztky 00:17:31 it's online as well: a gentle introduction to common lisp. 00:17:42 fatblueduck, have you read any other books on lisp by any chance? 00:17:53 factotum: tell bjorkintosh about PCL 00:18:05 bjorkintosh: yes. I have ANSI Common Lisp and also PAIP. 00:18:20 Fare: and inspect-for-emacs is now called emacs-inspect 00:18:21 okay. 00:18:29 factotum: tell bjorkintosh about PCL 00:18:42 Hmmm. Nick change didn't quite work. 00:18:44 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:45 -!- drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:18:48 stassats: someone should tell arnesi... sigh 00:18:58 I started using 5am, which depends on arnesi, which... 00:19:03 factotum: hello 00:19:04 Hello. 00:19:06 factotum: tell bjorkintosh about PCL 00:19:07 bjorkintosh: Practical Common Lisp is the sexiest book I know of. 00:19:18 I like ANSI Common Lisp also, but some of the code in it is incorrect. 00:19:33 gigamonkey, does it say much about datastructures at all? 00:19:47 The code in PAIP is not current enough but becomes useful after reading PCL or ACL 00:20:03 fatblueduck: that's not my impression. 00:20:05 not current enough? 00:20:06 bjorkintosh: as in how to implement things like red-black trees, not really. 00:20:23 Xach: what is your impression? 00:20:27 stassats: It's a little outdated in some of its style and recommendations. 00:20:49 It's still a good guide to how to think about certain aspects of programming, though. 00:20:55 fatblueduck: PAIP is a fine book that stands on its own for learning CL. 00:21:04 so it's true. jmcarthy wrote in sammet's book that lisp was not for everyone. 00:21:21 programming is not for everyone 00:21:22 Xach: I am referring to the very low-level problems a new person would encounter: In PAIP variables are initialized with setq rather than let or defvar 00:21:25 and as previoiusly mentioned by a number of people here, not for beginners especially. 00:21:38 fatblueduck: I think you haven't read any of those books 00:21:39 "Lisp is not for everyone; it's for onlyone?" 00:21:49 I am not debating the usefulness of PAIP I think its great 00:22:01 adeht: okay 00:22:02 -!- factotum [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Later guys.] 00:22:05 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:22:47 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:49 -!- davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:01 nyef: thanks for that file. 00:24:04 davazp` [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:04 -!- davazp` [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:05 No problem. 00:24:38 Okay, I really must go walk the dog. Later. 00:24:52 The currently-running minion sources should be available via lisppaste's system-server. It's the cl-irc example cliki-bot. 00:25:17 Cool. 00:25:33 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:27:05 totem [~audacity@unaffiliated/totem] has joined #lisp 00:27:58 is there anyone who can tell me how to reaload .emacs file without killing emacs? 00:28:01 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:4aff:fe01:c6e] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:06 tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has joined #lisp 00:28:12 l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 00:28:20 Finally! Survived genesis with the two critical trampolines moved over. 00:28:22 perhaps gigabot knows. 00:29:13 What? It's an elisp file, isn't it? 00:29:16 it is. 00:29:18 y 00:29:18 Blkt: M-x load-file 00:29:25 last i checked 00:29:28 tnx 00:29:32 next time ask in #emacs 00:29:38 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:30:12 i miss gigabot already... "gigabot: which way is #emacs" :) 00:30:36 drewc: #emacs is that-a-way -----> 00:31:09 stassats: it worked, thanks 00:32:13 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 00:32:34 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:32:46 -!- Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:35:30 nyef: what are you hacking? 00:35:33 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 00:36:04 Fare: SBCL again, moving stuff from x86-64-assem.S to assem-rtns.lisp. 00:36:15 Then I'll do the same for x86-assem.S. 00:36:28 any clisp devs in here 00:36:31 letting out GAS? 00:36:31 drewc: btw, if you want to unleash wrath on reddit, there are some far better comments to unleash wrath upon 00:36:48 why's it called steel bank? 00:36:49 adeht: i'm sure there is... i just happend to stumble across that one :) 00:36:54 Yeah, the end goal is to not require a particular assembler in the build process. 00:37:04 bjorkintosh: That's in the manual... or maybe the website. 00:37:06 drewc: an easy bait, er, possible object of ridicule: "Reddit was written in Lisp and they had to switch because it was too slow and so damn hard to debug." 00:37:22 drewc: yes, Reddit was written Python because Lisp was too slow 00:37:35 Fare: One of the reasons to do this is the guy who was/is trying to convert SBCL to use the MS toolchain instead of gcc. 00:37:42 yes, I saw that. 00:37:45 diarrheal [~Diarrheal@201.170.38.199.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:51 I just love lithping 00:38:16 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 00:38:25 -!- Xach has set mode -bb *!*@*.170.174.27.dsl.dyn.telnor.net *!*Colostom@*.170.7.50.dsl.dyn.telnor.net 00:38:35 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*@*dsl.dyn.telnor.net 00:39:22 Reddit was written in Python because a aaronsw didn't know what he was doing 00:39:23 -!- Xach has set mode -bbb *!*@*.170.23.50.dsl.dyn.telnor.net *!*ChorizoGr@*.170.169.40.dsl.dyn.telnor.net *!*Oranguta@*.38.31.162.dsl.dyn.telnor.net 00:39:53 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 00:39:58 Xach: quick on the draw! nice! 00:40:12 hefner, do you think it could have survived in cl? 00:40:12 -!- Xach has set mode -bb *!*Poobama@*.170.30.71.dsl.dyn.telnor.net *!*ChorizoGr@* 00:40:31 adeht: yeah, that's just a troll.. the facebook guy was serious 00:40:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:40:46 bjorkintosh: survived what? 00:40:54 growth, of course. 00:41:12 does python have mutant superpowers? 00:41:19 :) 00:42:17 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:23 hrm... could a well designed compiled language implementation scale as well as an ad-hoc interpreted scripting language implementation? 00:42:33 that's a tough one. 00:42:40 they chose the underdog didn't they? 00:42:53 -!- diarrheal [~Diarrheal@201.170.38.199.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-Lined] 00:43:03 *nyef* remembers an old cartoon show... 00:43:17 "There's no need to fear: Underdog is here!" 00:43:24 It doesn't even have alien tech powers. Only reptilean ones... 00:43:27 they chose a language they had no experince in to impress PG. 00:43:41 hah! that's what i suspected. 00:43:44 it worked well. 00:44:03 well, plan to throw one away anyway, right? 00:44:29 i have systems that i implemented in Lisp that i could translate elsewhere pretty easily.. but i could not have written them there. 00:44:37 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:38 hah 00:45:15 Okay, changes pushed to the public repository... 00:45:18 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:28 tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has joined #lisp 00:45:31 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:31 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:45:31 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:45:51 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has quit [Client Quit] 00:47:15 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-509.qas-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:47:26 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:47:43 drewc: but what frustrates me the last few days is the fact that they still haven't released the Norvig video :( 00:47:49 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-14-132.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:48:07 adeht: yeah i know... i'm excited about that as well :) 00:48:16 adeht: which video would that be? 00:48:40 -!- dejones [~dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:48:48 interview with reddit, Guthur 00:48:51 reddit questions Norvig? 00:48:53 Guthur: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/auvxf/ask_peter_norvig_anything/ 00:49:16 i'm not sure what a bunch of 12 year olds have to ask him. 00:49:21 cool, I'll keep an eye out for that 00:49:26 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 00:49:31 bipt [~bpt@cl-509.qas-01.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:37 bjorkintosh: yeah, I was just wondering the same thing. 00:49:38 "why did you use setq so much?" 00:50:21 heh 00:51:01 lol re PAIP -> (* I would go as far as to say, that stranded on a desert island, a copy of PAIP and a decent common lisp environment and I would be as happy as a clam.) 00:51:14 strange bunch on reddit 00:52:14 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:52:31 I don't like interviews that pull random questions from a bag. I'd rather see an intelligent conversation, even if it rambles off into the brush. 00:52:35 strange indeed. i'd have chosen derrida, or some other continental philosopher for the mindF*** instead. i'm sure lisp will emerge as a consequence. 00:52:36 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:53:04 hefner: i agree.. C@W was excellent in that regard 00:53:33 so AIMA 3rd Ed is out 00:53:34 *nyef* -still- hasn't finished reading C@W. 00:53:44 I must see if the library is going to get it 00:54:02 Guthur: Yeah, 3rd edition is out, means 2nd edition will become much cheaper on the used market. 00:54:14 nyef: good call 00:54:17 i have not read AIMA myself. I should get a copy 00:54:21 -!- mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-wthhnqmczdrkseqv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:54:33 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:36 *hefner* should go out and poke around for a copy of C@W. Will be surprised if he can find one here. 00:54:43 I used the wumpus world thing in a project last semester 00:54:56 I aim to expand upon it for my M.Sc. project 00:55:09 hefner: i got mine directly from gigamonkey, fwiw. 00:55:27 Last time I tried to read AIMA was a few years ago, and mine eyes glazeth over. Since then I acquired some clue as to how to interpret it, and am looking forward to another chance once I manage to acquire a copy. 00:55:30 (autographed... just like my copy of PCL) 00:56:01 I wonder if he encountered obstacles to putting PAIP online (since he mentioned to me a year or so ago that he plans on doing that) 00:56:09 AIMA is a heavy book, both physically and mentally 00:56:56 my copy of AMOP is signed by kiczales too, but sadly, PAIP is lacking. :( 00:57:29 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 00:57:35 but do you have a signed LoL? 00:58:33 heh, no... i do have the secret password for accessing the full text online though... 00:58:58 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:03 123456> 00:59:08 ? 00:59:18 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:59:25 ... and change the code on my luggage! 01:00:02 Heh. I was just thinking about that scene earlier today for some reason. 01:00:07 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:00:54 did you see the recent cartoon? 01:01:21 brilliant stuff. 01:03:40 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 01:06:55 dejones [~dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:08:05 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:44 which cartoon? 01:09:04 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-144-19.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:09:14 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:10:10 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:20 Fare: Spaceballs : The Animated Series 01:10:46 (two thumbs up!) 01:11:10 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-32.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:12:09 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:57 davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:59 iirc, didn't mel brooks actually have a hand in the animated series? 01:15:14 l_n: yric, he wrote, produced and starred 01:15:38 spaceballs the movie was pretty bad 01:15:51 Fare: and by bad you mean excellent! 01:16:13 by bad, I mean way too slow and predictable. 01:16:23 I wish I knew where my copy of Spaceballs: The DVD got to. 01:16:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1] 01:16:37 *hefner* doesn't get it either, always found vaguely unpleasant, like sitting in the same room as someone vacuuming 01:16:51 somehow, re-viewing Young Frankenstein, it wasn't as good as I remembered, either. But still good. 01:16:56 the movie, that is, not myself. although maybe I'm like that too. 01:17:04 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-154-80.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:30 ephcon [~ephcon@student164-62.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 01:19:15 *Fare* goes back to xcvb after fixing asdf (I hope) 01:19:46 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:19:57 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:12 asdf 1.592 01:22:53 Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:10 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 01:23:12 <_deepfire> Fare, what's the consensus on the ASDF modifications that ECL currently needs to maintain separately? 01:23:43 I've pushed them into the main ASDF tree, but currently it's still a separate file. 01:23:51 No one seems to complain so far. 01:24:03 <_deepfire> Wow, nice! 01:24:28 Are you proposing that as a precedent to do what janderson wants, aka moving other stuff out of asdf.lisp itself into asdf.asd ? 01:25:19 also, juanjo said he'd gladly update ECL's asdf.lisp when I'm ready to announce asdf 2 01:25:34 but right now he's waiting for me to give the green go. 01:25:59 I think I've reached the point where I need alpha testers for the new ASDF. 01:26:57 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:32:12 _deepfire pasted "for Fare: trouble on ECL with 1.592" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94278 01:32:27 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:47 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:33:05 <_deepfire> Fare, here goes 01:33:21 <_deepfire> I really must go sleepwards now. 01:34:16 gah 01:35:23 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:53 _deepfire, oops. Pull and try 1.593 01:36:49 <_deepfire> Fare, compiled and loaded fine now, thanks! 01:38:12 gah. Actually, one more bug => 1.594 01:38:49 Fare: asdf 2? 01:39:01 Ralith, not yet 01:39:05 I mean 01:39:06 wassat? 01:39:16 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.203.138] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:39:22 just asdf, plus self upgradability and easier configuration. 01:39:29 and output relocation 01:39:38 and ecl support 01:40:32 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:40 <_deepfire> Fare, now, loading actual systems doesn't work so well 01:40:56 <_deepfire> Neither in .592 nor in .501 01:42:35 <_deepfire> Although the failure modes appear different. 01:43:44 :( 01:43:45 _deepfire annotated #94278 "ECL vs. 1.593" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94278#1 01:44:13 weird, I manage to load system :asdf from asdf in ECL... 01:45:01 ouch, pathname problems :( :( :( 01:45:59 <_deepfire> Fare, sorry I must go sleep.. 01:46:22 ok 01:46:24 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:27 <_deepfire> My headache is killing me and I've got to wake up soon.. 01:46:31 I'm trying at home right now... 01:46:44 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:47:40 -!- kgn [~kgn@129-97-159-210.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:48:30 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:48:54 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:50:50 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:17 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:54:43 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:55:03 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:01 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:57:13 ok, that was a bug in my resolve-location, double-widening the user cache... 02:03:33 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 02:06:03 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:06:09 pinterface [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:14 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:08:16 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:25 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.71.251] has joined #lisp 02:08:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.71.251] has left #lisp 02:12:07 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-159-209-176.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 02:13:55 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 02:16:03 -!- addled [~adl@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:16:03 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:26:38 addled [~adl@89.Red-83-36-62.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:30 -!- Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo7.250.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:28:09 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:28:11 after some debugging on ECL, here's ASDF 1.595 02:28:20 getting there, slowly 02:28:40 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 02:29:30 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:30:02 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:10 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:33:49 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:34:32 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:36:16 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-10.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:36:45 -!- blackened`_ [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Quit: blackened`_] 02:40:21 Mexicum [~c8386ff7@gateway/web/freenode/x-ngcajjtesfgmvckg] has joined #lisp 02:40:30 Tired of niggers? 02:40:31 Sick of their monkeyshines? 02:40:36 Then join us at Chimpout Forum! 02:40:42 http://www.chimpout.com/forum 02:40:51 -!- Mexicum [~c8386ff7@gateway/web/freenode/x-ngcajjtesfgmvckg] has quit [Killed (syn (Banned))] 02:41:30 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:03 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 02:43:15 -!- madsy [~madsy@ti0207a340-0495.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 02:43:15 madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 02:43:29 it sounds easy, in theory, to add additional buffering in IRC an server that can delays and inspects messages from unidentified or otherwise untenured connections so that spam like that can be detected without ever reaching a channel 02:43:42 but I guess for any countermeasure, someone will find a way to game it 02:44:35 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:44:35 maybe. They already get around all the K-lines. 02:44:38 True, it'd be gameable, but it could still be an improvement. 02:44:48 arms race 02:44:59 I think for this group, the arms race may not go too far. 02:45:21 I don't really get why they pick freenode for that kind of crap, either. I can't imagine them working _too_ hard to get around things. 02:45:54 maybe they're disgruntled ubuntu users. 02:46:00 just banning the co word would be a start, but there are probably plenty of stupid URL redirector tricks they can use. 02:46:58 drakej [~Steven@216-67-22-128-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:20 I can just see a learning algorithm for troll and spamish behavior tied to an auto-kill bot now... 02:47:34 nyef: written in CL, ofc. 02:48:01 Well, -I'd- write it in CL if I were to write it at this point, yes, but that's not exactly the point. 02:48:09 A Plan for Spambots, eh? 02:48:12 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:20 Heh! 02:50:48 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:50:50 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:09 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:51:11 nunb [~nundan@59.178.179.173] has joined #lisp 02:51:43 kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:07 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-35-82-250-247-83.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 02:55:07 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-35-82-250-247-83.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:02 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:35 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 02:58:49 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:58:49 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 02:59:44 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:00:06 madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 03:04:25 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:28 Axius [~ghi@92.84.4.46] has joined #lisp 03:04:43 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:08:38 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student164-62.hampshire.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:12 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:10:37 -!- kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:10:57 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:15:17 wgl: test 03:16:01 -!- drakej [~Steven@216-67-22-128-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has left #lisp 03:18:34 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19:07 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 03:19:12 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:19:57 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:49 -!- Axius [~ghi@92.84.4.46] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:21:59 -!- malcolm_reynolds [~malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: malcolm_reynolds] 03:22:37 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:25:57 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 03:34:34 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:35:35 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:35:41 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:36:45 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 03:36:51 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-252.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:37:02 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 03:38:39 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:39:05 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:59 -!- l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Quit: foo] 03:41:26 i'm trying to inspect a class object with slime-inspect, but it just gives an error with 'illegal sharp macro character: #\<' 03:42:33 fractali` [~user@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:42:40 who gives it? slime or swank? 03:42:58 ramus: what you enter for inspection is evaluated. 03:43:11 ramus: so if your object was the last thing printed, you could inspect * instead 03:43:31 there are other options, too 03:43:39 or if you are using presentations, you can inspect them via C-c C-v i 03:43:57 aha, thanks 03:44:14 maelcoluim [~maelcolui@81.102.108.131] has joined #lisp 03:44:22 -!- fractalis [~user@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:44:25 or C-c I object, not its printed representation 03:44:52 yeah, i completely missed that part somehow 03:48:10 *stassats`* gathered some key binding statistics while writing code, and the winners are C-p and C-n 03:49:15 stassats`: hah 03:49:30 and M-b in the REPL 03:49:33 stassats`: i was going to gather stats today and spent most of my time out of emacs instead 03:49:57 DEL is the winner in the ERC buffer 03:51:32 OmniMancer 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[~yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 04:21:14 l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 04:26:02 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8953.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:26:42 -!- MissPiggy [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:03 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:29:59 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:34:21 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 04:34:25 fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 04:35:13 DeusExPikachu_ [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-61-202.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:40 -!- totem [~audacity@unaffiliated/totem] has quit [Quit: totem] 04:38:46 -!- DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-41-127.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:42:21 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit 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[~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:07:16 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:07:38 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:09:57 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 05:12:05 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:12:37 sepult`` [~user@xdsl-87-78-27-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:13:58 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-27-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:14:48 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:15:32 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 05:16:15 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:55 Good morning! 05:19:01 Hello beach. 05:19:22 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:25:44 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:38 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 05:27:08 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:29:14 Hmmm. Did someone here register the factotum nick? 05:29:32 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:31:21 Is it newly registered? 05:31:41 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-184.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:34:00 Well, it wasn't this afternoon when I was using it for gigabot. 05:34:02 And now it is. 05:34:23 -!- gigamonkey is now known as gigabot 05:34:25 How odd. 05:35:03 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:35:14 -!- gigabot is now known as gigamonkey 05:35:28 gigabot became self-aware and registered it for itself 05:35:30 -!- gigamonkey is now known as factotum 05:35:32 -!- sepult`` [~user@xdsl-87-78-27-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:36:48 -!- factotum is now known as gigamonkey 05:36:48 ... Self-awareness seems oddly recursive. 05:37:23 Okay, I'm soliciting names for gigabot that don't start with the giga prefix. 05:37:29 squire? 05:37:52 megamaid? (to go with the spaceballs thing from earlier) 05:38:07 lackey? 05:38:47 mccarthy 05:39:00 taken 05:39:03 oh well 05:39:07 sexybot (probably taken) 05:39:46 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:39:48 aide-de-camp? 05:39:58 Actually, maybe factotum was registered before and I just didn't notice. 05:40:16 gigamonkey: What does it do? 05:40:30 gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:30 Registered in 2003? Yeah, factotum was taken quite a while ago. 05:40:47 gigabot: hello 05:40:48 Hello. 05:40:55 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-27-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:41:08 gigabot: how do I find the name of a package? 05:41:08 Quite likely PACKAGE-NAME or maybe just NAME 05:41:54 gigabot: I suggest "mayday" which comes from the French "m'aider", i.e. "help me". 05:41:54 Pardon? 05:42:00 er, gigamonkey 05:42:53 i like mayday 05:43:04 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:43:14 oh oh .. cl-net? 05:43:44 drewc: Trying an ssh now. 05:43:53 Slow connect, if it's connecting at all. 05:44:01 now gigabot is trying to get rid of competitors 05:44:42 beach: that's why we're trying to come up with a new name. ;-) 05:44:58 gigamonkey: yeah 05:45:19 However, I do sort of like the bit of brand projection. 05:46:17 *nyef* notes, once again, the utter uselessness of LDB when faced with a random memory fault. 05:46:41 Run it through gdb :) 05:46:43 nyef: looks like the entire datacentre is having issues 05:46:57 drewc: Joy. 05:47:10 yeah, it's been that sort of day for me. 05:47:16 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:47:24 drewc: When the server comes back, the bots will need a restart. 05:47:39 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 05:47:52 good morning 05:47:56 (They don't know how to auto-rejoin.) 05:48:19 nyef: ok, i'll be around to give them a kick 05:48:58 (can't go anywhere when two of my servers are unreachable, can i) 05:49:04 nyef: what's the status on 63 bit fixnums, btw? 05:49:42 pkhuong: Needs a bit of cleanup, still, including some exporting of tag information to the GC. 05:50:11 And I need to put together a lightning talk presentation on it for next boston-lisp-meeting. 05:50:17 what sort of tag info, and does the 62 bit variant build? 05:50:28 Yeah, 62-bit built. 05:50:45 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 05:50:56 Tag info would be which lowtags are fixnums and which are unused and should trap. 05:51:47 Needs to propogate to GC for setting up the size/scav tabs and to the print.c stuff for describing objects in the runtime. 05:52:08 It's cleanup work, it's on my todo-list, I just haven't gotten to it yet. 05:54:04 I'll focus whatever time I find on emptying my own queue then. 05:54:45 Honestly, I expect to focus some more time on it within the next couple of weeks. 05:54:48 I hear mega is eagerly waiting for the sin/cos range reduction patch on x86 (: 05:55:18 rmathews [~rm@122.165.2.126] has joined #lisp 05:55:54 *drewc* finally uses PROG in real code! 05:55:55 Heh. I have enough trouble without trying to figure out floating point stuff. 05:56:10 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:56:16 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:56:33 I wonder how we could expose some sort of predicate with multiple return values. 05:56:34 dumb question, but what's the case for larger fixnums? I thought the extra lowtags on 64-bit were a feature. 05:56:36 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:57:18 hefner: same feature set as the current tagging scheme. It's only a rearranging of unused lowtags. 05:57:22 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 05:57:38 hefner: Neat hack, enforces separation of some abstractions that had gotten conflated over time... 05:57:47 ah. 05:58:29 BTW gigabot does private messages now if anyone feels like playing with him (which will help me build his brain). 05:58:42 re predicates, maybe we could do something like what we currently have, but go through m-v-bind like nodes. 05:58:52 ... Oops. No wonder this build failed, I forgot the CALL instruction in alloc-tramp. 05:59:55 (Explains why I couldn't find anything wrong with the funcallable-instance-tramp, I guess...) 06:00:44 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:27 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has joined #lisp 06:01:27 drewc: I see that clnet is back. Want me to kick the bots? 06:01:39 Or did you already do that? 06:02:53 nyef: already done 06:03:03 'kay. 06:03:07 massive DDOS is the story 06:03:13 Eesh. 06:03:20 Any word on who the target was? 06:03:40 Or is that not information they tend to give out beyond "not you"? 06:03:45 nope, you know as much as i do 06:04:03 i'm not even sure it's not me :) 06:05:47 gigamonkey: Is gigabot learning from just any conversation, or does the conversation have to have a particular syntax for that? 06:07:12 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 06:08:18 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:41 beach: well, he's not learning automatically at the moment. But the more examples I get of things people might reasonably ask him, the more I can build the AIML patterns to deal with them. 06:09:06 drewc: I'll start incorporating those questions soon. 06:09:25 gigamonkey: hope that helps 06:09:31 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:09:55 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:00 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:02 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:38 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 06:16:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:16:58 It's quarter past one? How'd it get to be so late?!? 06:17:10 G'night all. 06:17:19 Goodnight. 06:17:33 drewc: gigabot is that much smarter now. Thanks. 06:18:12 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:20 drakej [~Steven@216-67-22-128-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:05 identify bunker 06:21:10 -!- drakej [~Steven@216-67-22-128-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has left #lisp 06:21:55 drakej [~Steven@216-67-22-128-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:56 -!- drakej [~Steven@216-67-22-128-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has left #lisp 06:25:25 cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 06:25:30 -!- rmathews [~rm@122.165.2.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:30:23 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-3-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:30:35 poet [~poet@vpn3-14543.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 06:30:35 -!- poet [~poet@vpn3-14543.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Changing host] 06:30:36 poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 06:32:48 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-2-153.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:35:28 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:36:08 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 06:38:57 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:39:58 Say I want to blanketly enable/disable multi-defun/defstruct blocks of code at the reader-macro level (portability stuff) at the toplevel. . . what's the best way to do this? Is progn or eval-when around the functions kosher? 06:40:50 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:40:55 progn is 06:41:20 eval-when too but since progn works someone is liable to wonder why you're using eval-when 06:41:50 Thanks - was worried that progn would invalidate some properties of toplevel defun. 06:42:15 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:42:21 As far as I recall no. It's transparent to top-levelness. 06:42:25 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 06:43:56 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:43:57 Good morning nyef. Is this your ARM port log: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt ? 06:44:44 i think nyef is sleeping, and this is his log 06:46:01 Thanks stassats`. 06:48:02 -!- poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:30 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:48:42 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:49:37 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:52:48 lukego [~lukegorri@119.110.101.218] has joined #lisp 06:54:25 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:55 Is there some recommended reading for someone who would like to understand what nyef writes (apart from the source code) ? 06:55:38 the SBCL internals wiki, perhaps 06:55:56 I'd quite like to define shorthands e.g. "seq" for (tcp-seq-number *tcph* 0). a global symbol macro seems a bit heavy since I may want to use the symbol 'seq' for other purposes too. is there a better solution - something between a symbol macro and a function? 06:56:18 hefner: thank you. 06:56:24 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 06:56:40 etate [~cmalune@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:16 lukego: You might want to expand on that as I do not understand. 06:57:39 Ah. Why not use a local symbol macro? 06:57:53 Zhivago: basically I'm looking for a global "with-slots" 06:58:25 I'd ideally like to only define the behaviour of this symbol when used as a variable, but still have it shadowable 06:58:28 a macro (with-tcp-helpers ...) that introduces a family of such things as local symbol macros? 06:58:42 I want package-scope 06:58:57 Put the shortcut into another package? 06:59:15 But I see what you mean. 06:59:37 What you want is essentially to bind a function application to a variable. 06:59:53 yeah 07:00:13 I should probably settle for 0-ary convenience function accessors 07:00:13 why not use a function? 07:00:22 Well, symbol-macrolet can be shadowed. 07:00:26 just because (and syn? ack?) looks neater than (and (syn?) (ack?)) 07:00:43 for a laugh, you could define the first earmuff function. (*syn*), (*ack*) 07:01:14 zhivago: oh! I didn't rtfm properly on define-symbol-macro 07:01:14 luke: Um, doesn't define-symbol-macro do what you want? 07:01:20 minike [~mapbc000@dsl4E5CF253.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 07:01:23 Oh, good. 07:01:31 Hi everyone I would like to request assistance from your webpage országotokba we find the views and give more to others as well as likely that I will be banned from getting a link in röktön http://gollszexcom.atw.hu/ 07:01:39 yes define-symbol-macro looks like the very thing 07:01:54 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 07:03:20 -!- minike [~mapbc000@dsl4E5CF253.pool.t-online.hu] has left #lisp 07:03:42 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:05:11 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f6649cf-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:05:21 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f666d1c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 07:06:05 morning 07:06:08 BrettS [~kirin@c-24-20-88-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:12 morning. 07:06:21 lukego: have you seen my new toy in the logs? 07:06:27 no? 07:07:40 gigabot: introduce yourself to lukego 07:07:40 Hello lukego, I'm gigabot. 07:07:49 hi gigabot 07:08:00 Try gigabot: ... 07:08:05 gigabot: howdy! 07:08:05 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 07:08:27 gigabot: no need to apologise, we all have to start somewhere. 07:08:27 Whoops--I don't quite get you. 07:08:37 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:08:49 gigabot: is scheme a lisp 07:08:50 For some values of Lisp. 07:08:52 gigabot: is scheme a lisp 07:08:52 On alternate Thursdays. 07:09:00 gigabot: why not? 07:09:00 Some folks feel it diverged too far from the platonic ideal of Lisp. 07:09:21 gigabot: Are you evil? 07:09:21 Pardon? 07:09:25 gigabot: is scheme a lisp-1? 07:09:25 Stupid bot. 07:09:25 Sorry--my brain is still under construction. 07:10:17 gigabot: how do i get the plist of a symbol? 07:10:17 Quite likely SYMBOL-PLIST or maybe just PLIST 07:10:18 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:10:44 gigabot: how do i get money and fame? 07:10:44 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 07:10:57 gigabot: whyfor plist symbol thereof? 07:10:58 Sorry--my brain is still under construction. 07:11:10 Is it using templates? 07:11:43 Zhivago: AIML, which is templates 07:11:51 Ok. 07:11:57 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:12:01 gigabot: is scheme a lisp-1 07:12:02 Yes. 07:12:33 gigabot: but not a lisp? 07:12:33 Pardon? 07:13:02 recursive templates 07:13:30 gigabot: is Common Lisp a lisp-1? 07:13:31 Yes. 07:13:34 :( 07:13:38 Er, whoops. 07:13:43 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:04 gigabot: is Common Lisp a lisp-1 07:14:04 No. 07:14:09 gigabot: is Common Lisp a lisp-2 07:14:09 Yes. 07:14:22 gigabot: is common lisp a lisp-3? 07:14:22 Sorry--my brain is still under construction. 07:16:36 -!- stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:51 gigabot: is Common Lisp a lisp-3 07:16:51 Some people say Common Lisp is a Lisp-7 because there are that many different things that can be named by the same symbol. Or maybe it's a Lisp-infinity. 07:16:54 gigabot: is Common Lisp a lisp-100 07:16:54 Some people say Common Lisp is a Lisp-7 because there are that many different things that can be named by the same symbol. Or maybe it's a Lisp-infinity. 07:17:23 splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-ywglylftkvvxyofw] has joined #lisp 07:17:27 morning 07:17:32 Morning. 07:18:01 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:19:19 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.10.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:19:28 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:20:05 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:20:34 cmm [~cmm@109.64.10.30] has joined #lisp 07:20:42 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:22:18 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.218] has joined #lisp 07:27:52 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:28:56 -!- gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 07:38:54 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:43:47 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:46:27 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:47:18 gigabot and gigamonkey coming from the same place. But which was which? 07:48:44 rmathews [~rm@122.165.6.245] has joined #lisp 07:52:32 -!- easyE [XjWv6hhnHO@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:53:05 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:56:18 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:56:59 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:58:07 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 07:58:22 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:58:48 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:59:47 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:00:08 good morning 08:01:41 gigabot: are you distracting gigamonkey from the next book I want to read? :) 08:02:24 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:03:17 lukego: wie gehts? 08:04:24 splittist: less chaos this week :) mostly doing my own hacking / preparation 08:04:45 how about you? 08:06:01 family's been sick - they're on the mend, so now I'm succumbing. And my 'code at least a little bit every day' New Year's resolution didn't make it past January ): 08:08:59 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:11:40 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:11:46 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:12:32 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:07 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:13:32 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:14:54 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-97.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:15:15 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-97.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:16:07 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-97.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:21 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-97.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:16:30 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-97.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:43 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-97.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:17:09 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 08:17:41 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:58 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 08:21:46 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22:17 -!- Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:24:03 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:29:07 smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:00 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:31:18 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.201] has joined #lisp 08:34:17 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:35:14 hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:53 UnwashedMeme1 [~nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:02 ZabaQ [~john.conn@host81-155-76-176.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:36:42 If I am compiling a dll to be loaded by SBCL..which ABI should it be using? 08:36:42 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-97.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:36:51 (I'm using gcc-4.4.0) 08:37:12 -!- UnwashedMeme [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:37:33 xinming_ [~hyy@218.73.135.57] has joined #lisp 08:39:00 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f666d1c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 08:40:04 you're on windows? 08:40:18 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.64.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:40:43 jdz: Yes. 08:45:02 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-137-231.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:47:05 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:47:29 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:50:39 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:50:45 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:51:04 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-117-152.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:53:28 Guthur [~Michael@host81-159-209-176.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:42 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:55:04 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.227.117] has joined #lisp 08:55:26 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:55:47 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7547ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:02 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:56:33 cow-orker [~foobar@pogostick.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:25 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:59:41 waterh [~ca4bc813@gateway/web/freenode/x-rkbcbzrxvalfppjc] has joined #lisp 08:59:55 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 09:00:06 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f6639d0-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 09:01:37 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:02:03 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 09:05:42 hefner_ [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-109.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:05:48 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-117-152.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:06:35 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 09:06:46 jdz: in the sense of cdecl vs stdcall? SBCL defaults to cdecl. nyef has a hack somewhere for stdcall callbacks; I don't know whether that has made it into SBCL already. 09:07:04 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:07:22 lichtblau: tell that ZabaQ :) 09:10:03 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:11:22 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 09:12:18 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:13:19 lichtblau: I meant in the context of the gcc-3 -> gcc-4 abi change. But i guess it's moot under Windows. If Windows had an ABI change, everything would collapse. 09:13:29 jdz: oh, sorry 09:14:43 -!- waterh [~ca4bc813@gateway/web/freenode/x-rkbcbzrxvalfppjc] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:14:43 -!- hefner_ [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-109.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:15:20 ZabaQ: which gcc 4 ABI change is that? 09:16:43 ISTR some little ABI changes (or perhaps ABI re-interpretations) that gcc did at various points, but was there a major ABI compatibility issue with 4.0 specifically? 09:17:29 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:25 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:19:15 *ZabaQ* just vaguely remembers reading about an ABI change somewhere and goes off to read the changelogs closely 09:19:20 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:19:45 -!- hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:33 found it: "Packed bit-fields of type char were not properly bit-packed on many targets prior to GCC 4.4. On these targets, the fix in GCC 4.4 causes an ABI change. For example there is no longer a 4-bit padding between field a and b in this structure" 09:21:18 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:21:58 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:22:17 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:24:18 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:26:13 akcom [~akcom@rrcs-67-78-136-74.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:33 (defun cons-deck (x) (if (> x 0) (cons x (cons-deck (- x 1))) nil)) 09:27:52 I'm using that function (cons-deck 52) to generate a "deck" of fifty two cards 09:27:56 but I feel like it's not very lispy 09:28:00 any suggestions on a better method? 09:28:15 lispy/more efficient, either or 09:30:53 hefner_ [~hefner@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:32:25 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:55 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:35:19 akcom: those do not look like cards at all, just a list of numbers... 09:35:59 When using a cond statement do the test clauses have to evaluate to exactly T or Nil? Or will any non Nil value evaluate to T? 09:36:21 BrettS: in CL anything not nil is true 09:36:36 jdz: ok, thanks 09:36:51 BrettS: btw, you can use that feature 09:37:07 hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 09:37:18 BrettS: if you have clause without any form in it 09:37:58 carlocci [~nes@93.37.210.55] has joined #lisp 09:38:20 BrettS: and, btw, use the links in HyperSpec to read what it means for something to "evaluate to /true/" 09:38:45 that's the awesomeness of the spec 09:41:59 -!- hefner_ [~hefner@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:07 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@host81-155-76-176.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1] 09:42:25 Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:44:38 jdz, they will be eventually 09:48:10 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.227.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:48:52 akcom: anyway you can do it like (defun make-deck (size) (loop for n from 1 to size collecting n)) 09:49:27 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.197] has joined #lisp 09:52:42 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-217-250.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:53:04 nGF95ON8 [~nGF95ON8@cpe-76-173-193-195.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:06 -!- nGF95ON8 [~nGF95ON8@cpe-76-173-193-195.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 09:53:16 TR2N [email@89.180.139.2] has joined #lisp 09:56:29 -!- hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:47 nGF95ON8 [~nGF95ON8@cpe-76-173-193-195.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:18 -!- nGF95ON8 [~nGF95ON8@cpe-76-173-193-195.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 09:57:22 man loop is flexible 09:57:50 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-57-194.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:58:40 that's what it's for 09:59:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 09:59:27 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 09:59:48 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-116-252.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:01:15 fiveop [~fiveop@g229144194.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:25 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Gauss Eleminated] 10:02:26 Hun [~hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:32 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:01 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-116-252.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:09:26 hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:29 -!- hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:52 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-244.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:11:35 hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:58 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7547ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:17 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7547ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:18 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-244.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:13:22 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dtwnsiqglhczntbv] has joined #lisp 10:14:20 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dtwnsiqglhczntbv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:30 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kagoqkenowcpqlar] has joined #lisp 10:15:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-brftkahgttarajrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:17:43 Fufie [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:13 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:38 Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo7.128.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:57 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:29:07 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:31:55 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7547ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32:11 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7547ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:08 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 10:40:09 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:41:50 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:42:36 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:44:18 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:50 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 10:44:55 anyone good with cisco/juniper/etc? :) 10:45:31 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082E7F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:27 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:47:30 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:47:39 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 10:47:40 are we witnessing the birth of the next lukego networking startup empire here? 10:48:25 something like that :) 10:49:01 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082E882.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:49:09 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:14 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7547ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:49:22 -!- Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo7.128.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:49:30 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7547ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:01 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:50:49 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 10:53:57 clhs dynamic-extent 10:53:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_dynami.htm 10:54:58 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:55:45 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 10:56:36 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:15 while I don't claim to understand whether Pascal's alleged SBCL issue is a bug or not, I can't help but feel that user-specified dynamic extent is a recipe for disaster, and the only right thing to do is to have the compiler optimize things automatically only if shown safe by escape analysis 11:02:17 Although all the famous people writing C in Lisp will probably disagree. 11:02:24 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:02:54 I liked pkhuong's idea for a shallow-dynamic-extent which is more intuitive and actually all (at least) I need 11:03:31 fsl [~fsl@nat-95-73.wlan.ae.katowice.pl] has joined #lisp 11:04:01 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 11:04:03 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7547ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:05:05 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:05:25 If it was sbcl-devel, I must have missed that suggestion. But assuming it isn't "cons-shallow" but rather "list-shallow" it sounds reasonable, because the car and cdr of lists hardly have the same meaning from the user's perspective in this kind of situation. 11:06:02 it was here 11:06:31 I'm also thinking of the structure case 11:07:29 okay. for structures it's obvious what shallow means. 11:09:13 I think the "doesn't cross lexical boundaries" variant is the important one 11:09:37 because I've just had to adjust my mental model completely, too. mapcar's &rest arg can't be dynamic-extent, for example 11:10:24 pkhuong also mentioned "lexical-dynamic-extend" in the cll thread. 11:11:07 er, *extent obviously 11:11:38 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:13:56 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b30.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:15 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:17:48 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 11:18:28 I've missed that the discussion moved to cll 11:19:10 I wonder if there isn't a lost wakeup problem in condition-wait/condition-notify... 11:19:16 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20:00 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:25:30 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:28:41 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 11:28:47 malcolm_reynolds [~malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:31:02 What is the point of :default-initargs vs. :initform? Does this matter for inherited slots? 11:31:59 DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:34:23 7.1.3 explains the differences in purpose 11:39:09 tcr: When an inhereted class does not want to modify a slot (perhaps because it is internal to the parent), but the parent class accepts initargs, this is a useful features. 11:39:14 s/s// 11:42:00 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:43:15 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:30 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-8db4e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:46:42 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:48:11 -!- malcolm_reynolds [~malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: malcolm_reynolds] 11:51:52 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:52:34 -!- cow-orker [~foobar@pogostick.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:19 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 11:57:28 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 11:57:32 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:58:58 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:00:04 Hmm, let me say that more clearly. Suppose a class C has a documented :initarg, a reder for some feature, or perhaps even an accessor, and you want to inherit from that class, creating a class D, and you want to provide an initial value for what the reader returns on a D, then you have a choice of creating a new slot, with a new :initarg, and a new reader (or perhaps an accessor). Or you can use :default-initargs. 12:00:12 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 12:01:57 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-74-101.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:04:45 unicode [~user@95.214.41.255] has joined #lisp 12:08:47 spiaggia: note that :default-initargs will error if no ancestor defines the slot 12:08:53 while creating a new slot will just create it. 12:10:44 Ralith: No, it won't. 12:11:05 Ralith: error, that is. 12:11:40 Ralith: "the slot"? 12:12:07 Ralith: Nothing says that an :initarg needs to be connected to a particular slot. 12:12:41 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:18 unicode_ [~user@95.214.41.255] has joined #lisp 12:15:42 Ralith: an :initarg is just that: an INITialization ARGument 12:16:07 you can specialize shared-initialize or (re)initialize-instance to do anything with it 12:16:37 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:17:02 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:18:25 s/slot/initarg/ 12:19:02 Ralith: for what statement? 12:19:18 both. 12:19:20 clhs initialize-instance 12:19:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm 12:19:20 Ralith: Oh, but the precondition for my statement was that the :initarg is accepted by the parent class. 12:19:24 Ralith, it takes &aok 12:19:56 Ralith: I don't quite understand. At what point will an error be signaled? 12:20:10 Xach: presumably when the defclass is evaluated? 12:20:15 unicode__ [~user@95.214.21.16] has joined #lisp 12:20:16 make-instance behaves this way, anyway. 12:20:25 Ralith: That's not correct. 12:20:32 what's not correct? 12:20:44 Ralith: a defclass with an arbitrary :default-initarg will not signal an error. 12:21:03 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.41.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:21:04 really? 12:21:16 that's... counterintuitive O.o 12:21:18 -!- unicode_ [~user@95.214.41.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:21:24 Ralith, all of the genfuns involved in creation and (re)initialization take &aok 12:21:51 Reminds me of the "If this is not what you expect..." sig 12:22:06 ? 12:22:32 "If this is not what you expected, please alter your expectations." 12:22:36 fe[nl]ix: did you already book tickets for vienna? 12:22:54 fe[nl]ix: What are your arrival times? 12:23:25 Xach: why is my expectation unreasonable? 12:23:43 Ralith: I don't think it's unreasonable, but it's uninformed and incorrect, and should be abandoned. 12:24:01 http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2010/02/obamameter.html wins the "oddest blog reference to common lisp" prize for today 12:24:02 well obviously I was wrong 12:24:10 and it's generally not a good idea to go around believing wrong things, yes 12:24:27 malcolm_reynolds [~malc@2001:630:13:101:226:bbff:fe14:b2be] has joined #lisp 12:24:33 but if it doesn't behave like that, what's the point of :default-initargs? 12:24:34 Well, as long as you keep your mouth shut... :-) 12:24:43 Ralith: to provide default initargs. 12:24:58 Ralith: initargs need not have a tight relationship with slots. 12:25:29 Multiple slot values could be computed from a single initarg, for example. 12:25:55 Ralith: The point of :default-initarg is exactly what I described above. 12:26:10 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-244.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:26:15 That is one possible use. 12:26:26 There might indeed be others. 12:26:35 spiaggia: that wasn't a very useful "point." 12:26:42 Ralith: Oh? 12:27:00 Xach: given that make-instance *does* error on unmatching initargs, though, why doesn't :default-initargs? 12:27:07 it seems highly desirable. 12:27:30 Ralith: default-initargs are passed to instance initialization protocol methods 12:27:48 Ralith: so it is still the make-instance that will err on wrong default-initargs 12:27:50 clhs make-instance 12:27:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ins.htm 12:27:52 <_3b__> you could use :default-initargs :allow-other-keys t in the parent class to let children add invalid :default-initargs if you want :p 12:27:53 *Adlai* sees an &aok there 12:27:56 jdz: ahh. 12:28:08 jdz: so make-instance on a class with invalid default initargs will error? 12:28:16 Ralith: yes 12:28:32 Ralith: but you must understand what "invalid default initargs" means 12:29:05 okay, that's sane behavior. 12:29:12 and more or less what I was expecting. 12:29:34 so, adjusting for that, my original point remains. 12:29:38 bad_alloc [~marvin@p57B4EE0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:47 Ralith: which one was the original? 12:30:11 Ralith: your "original point" being about slots? 12:30:16 jdz: no. 12:30:21 you might want to read the backlog. 12:30:28 i did 12:30:31 Xach: in intent, that default-initargs is appropriate when you want to be sure you're talking to the ancestors. 12:30:33 that's why i ask 12:30:38 or, well 12:30:45 I suppose it could talk to the current class as well 12:31:07 but in the context of using it versus a new slot specifier on the same slot as an ancestor 12:31:27 Ralith: It seems like yoru point is evolving, backlog doesn't help. 12:31:36 Ralith: What point would you like to make? 12:31:41 jdz: then you'll recall that I corrected myself; I was referring to initargs. 12:31:50 Xach: ...sorry? 12:32:04 Apology accepted! 12:32:05 Ralith: Perhaps now would be a good time to start again. :) 12:32:07 Let us move on. 12:32:15 Ralith: for a constructive further discussion you should state your point again. 12:32:25 bad_alloc pasted "delete this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94290 12:32:30 jdz: that's why I Just did. 12:32:34 just* 12:32:55 hello, i have a problem (pasted just above) concerning deleting elements from lists 12:33:00 Zhivago: consider the immediately above as having done so. 12:33:09 Ralith: No-one seems to have noticed -- maybe you should try a different tack. 12:33:18 i need to delete a cons cell (a. b) from something like((0 ((a . b))) 12:33:19 maybe 12:33:22 how do i do this? 12:33:23 but I really don't care enough 12:33:32 Ralith: Well, that's another option. 12:33:37 indeed. 12:33:51 bad_alloc: you should use the return value of DELETE 12:33:59 bad_alloc: the first time you use it, you don't. 12:34:07 bad_alloc: the difference between DELETE and REMOVE is that the former is allowed to mess up your list. 12:34:19 thats what i want to do 12:34:28 mess it up etc. for action at a distance 12:34:37 no good style but necessary here 12:34:38 bad_alloc: not really. you appear to want to change variable bindings, not the lists. 12:35:01 i do not know what that is, i just need to get rid of the con cell 12:35:08 you still have to assign the returned value of delete, if I remember right 12:35:12 Keene says "Sometimes it is useful for a class to provide a default value for an initarg. ... It is used mostly for remote defaulting: that is, for providing a default value for an inherited initarg." 12:35:22 so basically (setf list (delete... 12:35:29 spiaggia: that was more or less my intended point, yes. 12:35:35 Riesbeck comments on it, too. 12:36:07 *Xach* tries to find it 12:36:07 bad_alloc: but that will only change the bindings in the disconnect-nodes function. the bindings in the caller won't change. 12:36:14 (pages 158 and 159 are admirably, and characteristically, clear) 12:36:18 -!- fsl [~fsl@nat-95-73.wlan.ae.katowice.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 12:36:23 http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/chap11-notes.html 12:36:34 The first sentence doesn't match what I've seen in practice, though. 12:36:44 jdz: so the caller needs to reassign the stuff returned by desconnect? 12:36:45 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:36:59 bad_alloc: generally, yes. 12:37:09 great, thank you. 12:37:12 bad_alloc: but note that you can return multiple values from functions 12:37:16 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:37:25 easyE [BIOtZJHjga@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 12:37:36 jdz: why is this relevant here? 12:37:37 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 12:37:54 just a note 12:38:03 tcr: arrival on Saturday at 8:35, departure on Sunday at 19:30 12:38:08 okay, noted :) goodbye 12:38:12 -!- bad_alloc [~marvin@p57B4EE0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: bad_alloc] 12:38:18 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:38:34 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 12:38:35 that was very polite... 12:38:47 fe[nl]ix: Ok, seems like lukego and me will be there from friday to monday. Do you have an idea for accommodation already? 12:38:59 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:39:11 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 12:39:16 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 12:39:16 Xach: indeed. It also /starts/ talking about slots, which is probably a bit confusingly narrow. 12:39:26 tcr: I could stay until Monday evening, haven't booked yet 12:39:41 tcr: do you have any suggestion ? 12:39:51 tcr: I'm there until Monday. FWIW. 12:39:56 jdz: he probably didn't mean it to sound so abrupt, I assumed sarcasm on your part 12:40:25 What's the date for the Vienna Event? 12:40:41 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-137-231.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:46 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-4831.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:59 splittist, fe[nl]ix: Not yet, but I'll look for suitable revenues later today to make the trip perfect 12:41:11 Xach: 27th of February 12:41:14 I note for those watching that not only does my apartment now have a state-of-the-art security system and reinforced front door, but that my black-belt knife-obsessed bad-impulse-control friend will be staying there with some of his motorcycle buddies... 12:41:14 I think we should try to all get at the same place :-) 12:41:24 heh 12:41:29 ok, so I'll stay until Monday :D 12:41:53 Oh, I see I have already added it to the calendar, possibly while unconcious. 12:42:11 Xach: trying out that MethME site? 12:45:02 when writing a library that uses CFFI, what is the preferred way of allowing a user to specify a custom library direction? Just have a defvar somewhere that is loaded before the ffi calls, which the user has to edit? 12:45:12 *directory, not direction 12:45:37 how do I add the Lisp meetings calendar to my account ? 12:45:53 malcolm_reynolds: what do you mean by "custom library direction" ? 12:46:26 malcolm_reynolds: I generally leave that outside of my projects for the OS and user to handle. 12:46:29 fe[nl]ix: when i visit http://planet.lisp.org/meetings/ there is a "[+] Google Calendar" graphic in the lower right 12:46:45 cool 12:47:03 fe[nl]ix: you can also follow @lispmeetings on twitter, it posts about a meeting one day in advance 12:47:48 anyone for @lispmeetings+7 / +30? 12:48:03 *Xach* wonders how berlin and toronto went yesterday 12:48:08 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-210-38-17.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:22 aerique: fair enough. on a personal level though, what's the best way of putting something in cffi:*foreign-library-directories* automatically? It can't be done in .sbclrc because cffi isn't loaded yet, and you apparently can't require cffi in there either... 12:48:42 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:47 malcolm_reynolds: of course you can 12:49:53 malcolm_reynolds: I don't know. I tried using that variable once and then found out it didn't work when starting up from a saved image. 12:52:16 fe[nl]ix: hmm, I seem to recall this not working before, but its working now. thanks. 12:52:44 malcolm_reynolds: it's 12:52:50 splittist: ?? 12:54:03 malcolm_reynolds: do you know about EVAL-WHEN? 12:54:42 I know of it, but never used it 12:54:44 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 12:55:42 ZabaQ [~johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:17 Greetings, fellow lambdaphiles. 12:59:34 hello 13:00:11 -!- unicode__ [~user@95.214.21.16] has left #lisp 13:01:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:01:21 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kagoqkenowcpqlar] has left #lisp 13:02:33 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:44 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:51 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:02 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:26 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 13:04:45 fe[nl]ix: I meant one-week and one-month warning of upcoming lisp meetings. 13:06:10 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:07:49 -!- rmathews [~rm@122.165.6.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:08 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:14 splittist: lol, I still don't understand that sentence 13:10:27 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-159-209-176.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:14:42 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:16:43 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:48 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-244.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:20:24 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:22:12 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:22:38 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ehefhnerqjimmogt] has joined #lisp 13:22:41 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ehefhnerqjimmogt] has left #lisp 13:23:31 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-74-101.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 13:23:59 j0be_ [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 13:25:32 -!- j0be_ [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 13:27:33 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:27:59 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:02 antifuchs: ping 13:29:27 oh hai 13:29:45 it's funny that when you say ping, my phone vibrates and tells me so (: 13:29:52 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:11 lol 13:30:31 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:36 in what district is the meeting ? 13:30:46 *Xach* struggles to use that newfound knowledge for good, not evil 13:30:53 :D 13:30:53 it's in the first; the address is "Rathausstrasse 6" 13:31:06 Xach: it's turned off when I sleep (: 13:32:01 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-29.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:32:07 antifuchs: how is that implemented? 13:32:25 and what kind of phone do you have to have for that? :) 13:32:27 splittist: so where will you be staying in Vienna ? 13:32:36 guaqua: I'm running the znc bouncer, which uses a custom module to send highlights to the Boxcar service (which is a push notification app for the iphone) 13:32:53 nice :) 13:33:04 i'd need some push-service for the n900 to do that 13:33:25 I suppose you could also have a module send twitter messages 13:33:25 n900 is a nice device... I'm sure you can figure something out (: 13:33:26 or just do it simply via cron 13:33:40 if you want, I can publish the source of the module. it's really pretty easy 13:33:41 but a generic push would be better 13:35:39 antifuchs: there's also a custom module for znc to send push messages to the iphone version of colloquy 13:36:16 quite a lot of work goes into faking proper multitasking for the iphone :) 13:36:24 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 13:36:36 Question to the format experts: Shouldn't ~@<~@?~@:> result in paragraph-style filling for the recursive format string as well? 13:37:23 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:38:28 -!- ``Erik [~erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:31 ``Erik [~erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:44 hm no it shouldn't 13:40:09 rsynnott: I think of it as a window management exercise (: 13:40:16 Seems like I greatly overestimated ~<~@:>'s power 13:41:09 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:41:16 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 13:42:45 -!- etate [~cmalune@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:44:23 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:45:46 lispm [~joswig@e177144232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:11 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 13:54:53 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 13:55:16 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Quit: lnostdal] 13:56:51 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:57:55 LiamH: working for the navy ? 13:58:18 fe[nl]ix: as usual 13:58:21 on a PDP8? 13:58:33 Xof: nothing but the best for us 13:59:07 4K 12-bit words is all you need 13:59:24 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:59:24 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 13:59:24 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:03:37 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:42 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 14:08:13 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:08:34 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:30 -!- trittweiler [~tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:11:53 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 14:13:22 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:14:29 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:14:30 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-29.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:37 -!- konr [~user@201.82.133.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15:20 trittweiler [~tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:55 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:07 TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:20:38 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:22:59 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@119.110.101.218] has quit [Quit: lukego] 14:26:08 bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:27 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:27:41 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:30:34 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:32:42 hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 14:34:39 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:47 *ZabaQ* wants to do some lisp hacking again. 14:35:02 fe[nl]ix: the Le Meridien 14:43:34 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:43:39 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 14:44:58 G'morning all. 14:45:04 hi nyef 14:45:27 Hrm... Logs show someone with interest in sbcl on arm, or at least the port log, and someone with interest in stdcall callbacks... 14:45:29 konr [~user@201.82.133.89] has joined #lisp 14:46:57 So, it occurs to me that there are two problems with the SB-ALIEN function types: No spot for calling convention information, and no mechanism to support vararg functions. 14:47:54 It is also known that you don't need stdcall callbacks for window procedures because so many people screwed it up in the past that MS just made it work anyway. 14:47:56 splittist: your double article has hung my parser for several seconds 14:48:17 alaa` [~user@86.99.178.55] has joined #lisp 14:48:30 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:48:37 -!- alaa` [~user@86.99.178.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:57 cmm: I je am suis sorry desole 14:49:05 cmo-0 [~user@86.99.178.55] has joined #lisp 14:49:09 MissPiggy [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 14:50:01 Can we also rag on people referring to "the hoi polloi"? 14:51:42 ZabaQ: Herep? 14:53:09 etate [~cmalune@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:22 -!- cmo-0 [~user@86.99.178.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:36 nyef: T 14:55:05 Oh, of all the... closure-tramp is stored where it gets parsed by the GC as -boxed-?!? 14:55:27 ZabaQ: You were asking earlier about the calling convention to use for a DLL on windows? 14:55:45 nyef: yes 14:56:27 nyef: I'm wrapping some libraries up with swig - using gcc 4.4.0 - the mention of abi changes in the change log worried me a little. 14:56:37 Ah, okay. 14:56:44 rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-208-5-37.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:12 I don't know much about that, but as far as stdcall vs. cdecl goes, you're fine for call-out from lisp, but callbacks are cdecl only unless you use an stdcall-callback patch. 14:57:19 anyone know of a decent library that will do bicubic interpolation? 14:57:34 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:56 ZabaQ: I don't think bitfields are specified in any of x86's ABIs, so using them in public interface was a loss from the get go. 14:59:49 (Essentially, the difference between stdcall and cdecl is who is responsible for removing the parameters from the stack... And if you save and restore the stack pointer on the caller side, rather than being clever with dead-reckoning or re-using the call frame, you can call either sort of function with the same code.) 15:00:48 ... The SBCL runtime and LDB really aren't set up for debugging anything -useful-, are they? 15:01:58 better question: has anyone used ch-image recently? 15:02:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:02:19 slyrus might've done. 15:02:41 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 15:05:30 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 15:07:05 lnostdal [~lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 15:08:04 dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:10:01 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-27-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:46 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:11:58 no, not really 15:12:19 ryepup: got a ch-image question? 15:13:07 slyrus: not yet, just curious about the general state of the library 15:13:23 ah. it should still work. if it doesn't let me know and i'll fix it. 15:13:30 Is there any way to get a usable alignment out of an assembler-routine, or am I going to have to be more invasive in this change set? 15:13:43 slyrus: sounds good. will probably be a few days until I get to it, but I'll let you know 15:13:54 cool. then i'll go back to cooking breakfast. 15:13:55 nyef: how much alignment? 15:14:02 Actually, never mind. 15:14:04 fixnum-tag, minimum. 15:14:06 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:47 Each file worth of assembler-routines is embedded in a code-component, so we have that much natural alignment to work with, I guess... 15:14:53 yup. 15:15:58 And the routines just end up emitting an assemble, and they're all concatenated into one segment prior to being dumped. 15:16:07 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 15:16:15 So I can get up to two words of alignment, or 16 bytes on x86-64. Perfect. 15:16:16 Thanks. 15:16:19 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:17:06 Kirklander [~Kirklande@174-143-212-242.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:18 *nyef* can see it now... (assemble (sb!c::*code-segment) (emit-alignment n-fixnum-tag-bits)) in an assem-rtns.lisp. 15:18:41 *Xach* used to forget right-* very often 15:18:48 And *code-segment* is exported... 15:18:56 Heh. Oops. 15:18:58 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:20:31 And sb@ 15:20:33 Err... 15:20:41 sb!vm uses sb!c, so I don't need package prefixen. 15:23:54 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:40 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:33 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:27:45 should I be using cygwin or mingw to work with Win32 sbcl? I assume you need cygwin to build it and not just mingw 15:27:57 ZabaQ: neither. 15:28:27 ZabaQ: I use a cygwin environment, but the mingw compiler. 15:28:31 cmo-0 [~user@86.99.178.55] has joined #lisp 15:28:46 <_3b__> i used msys+mingw 15:28:56 You could use the MSVC compiler to produce DLLs for SBCL to use, and there's that one guy who is trying to port SBCL to MSVC. 15:29:29 (And his job might be made a bit easier by what I'm working on now, moving the assembler code files from the runtime to the core.) 15:30:08 nyef: I wondered about that. Why are we using assembler, anyway? 15:31:20 ZabaQ: because C doesn't give us enough control. 15:32:48 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:32:49 We're a compiler, and have our own calling convention, thus we need to interface the two. 15:33:05 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 15:33:07 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 15:33:07 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 15:34:18 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:34:20 The target-assem.S files contain things like functions to call into lisp from C, functions to call into parts of the runtime from Lisp for things like allocation, small trampolines for things like undefined functions, closures, etc. 15:35:17 Some but not all of it needs to be referred to from the C runtime, some of it needs to be known by genesis before it can set up to the point of being able to load fasls properly, etc. 15:36:07 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 15:39:42 -!- holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:17 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:30 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:47:47 holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:05 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:51 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:53:18 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:32 -!- BrettS [~kirin@c-24-20-88-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:58:51 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:16 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:00:35 pkhuong: here? 16:00:44 I think there's a lost wakeup problem in condition-wait 16:02:21 tcr: it's on the ML? 16:02:28 sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:57 not yet, I'd like to discuss it first. I have sort of a test case but it relies on uniprocessor 16:05:56 pkhuong: condition-wait sets waitqueue-data to nil, and passes waitqueue-data-address and nil to futex-wait in the hope that this will catch lost wakeups 16:06:07 pkhuong: condition-notify sets waitqueue-data to the calling thread 16:06:08 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07:27 pkhuong: what is if in condition-wait after release-mutex before futex-wait, thread A is scheduled; then thread B invokes condition-notify, and shortly there after another thread invokes condition-wait (thread A hasn't run yet) 16:07:42 this means that waitqueue-data takes on these values: nil, #, nil 16:08:13 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:08:27 then # awakes, goes into futex-wait which compares waitqueue-data-address with nil, and sees nil there -- so the condition-notify is lost 16:08:36 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:09:08 Munksgaard [~user@90.184.11.10] has joined #lisp 16:09:13 lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 16:09:43 -!- Munksgaard [~user@90.184.11.10] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:58 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:10:51 tcr: can't help right now. 16:11:32 ok 16:13:43 -!- addled [~adl@89.Red-83-36-62.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:48 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:00 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 16:19:44 ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:21:36 minion: memo for gigabot:tell gigamonkey to write! more! books! 16:21:37 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 16:29:39 -!- ZabaQ [~johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:30:57 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-251-125.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:48 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 16:38:07 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:40:15 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: lukego] 16:40:17 wgl: He's apparently working on one now  one I'm personally very excited about. 16:40:48 alama [~alama@bl14-193-175.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:41:02 sellout: looks like it could be interesting. 16:44:24 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:16 S11001001 [~sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:32 i'm having some trouble with sbcl and a macro that expands into a compiler declaration 16:46:55 it appears that the compiler is given code in which a DECLARE form is not placed properly, even though, "by rights", it should be 16:46:58 check it out: http://paste.lisp.org/display/94295 16:47:13 compiling that file results in a compiler warning 16:47:31 saying that i'm treating DECLARE as a function 16:48:05 declarations are treated before macroexpansion 16:49:14 anyone has tried both 5am and stefil? Preferences? 16:49:36 if you really want that syntax, I suppose you can have (defun forget (&rest whatever) (declare (ignore whatever))) 16:50:00 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:50:01 Fare: both are nice. stefil perhaps is a little easier to use 16:50:26 anything better/easier? 16:50:39 stefil also looks like it's not pulling as much in terms of dependencies 16:50:58 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:47 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 16:52:01 Fare: who cares about the number of dependencies ? 16:52:19 maelcoluim [~maelcolui@host81-102-109-68.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:28 wait, isn't you who wanted to pull in prolog or something into xcvb? 16:53:02 gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:15 adeht: i'm not sure i understand -- (screw-it ) expands into (lambda (m) (forget m) 5) 16:53:27 Okay, today's stupid bot trick ... 16:53:34 alama: it does not 16:53:38 gigabot: how do I get the name of a package? 16:53:38 Quite likely PACKAGE-NAME or maybe just NAME 16:53:47 alama: LET, LAMBDA, etc look for declarations before expanding macros 16:53:49 Whoops. That's not the new trick. 16:53:51 Hang on. 16:54:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:55:06 adeht: ok -- so when compiling (lambda (m) (forget m) 5), first declarations are searched for; none are found, then expansion takes place? 16:55:32 gigabot: how do I get the name of a package? 16:55:43 alama: yeah.. and SCREW-IT doesn't expand into what you think it expands 16:55:43 Bah. 16:55:53 adeht: right 16:55:55 alama: By the time macroexpansion happens, declare processing is over. You might want to try (defmacro forget ((&rest vars) &body body) `(locally (declare (ignore ,@vars)) ,@body)), though the extra indent may be problematic. 16:56:08 Anyone know if the XRender stuff in CLX works in recent versions of X? 16:56:26 maelcoluim: It -should-, in theory. 16:56:27 nyef: cool, thanks 16:56:45 nyef: I don't think IGNORE makes sense as free declaration 16:56:55 gigabot: how do I get the name of a package? 16:56:55 There is a Common Lisp function named PACKAGE-NAME. Maybe that does what you want. 16:56:56 tcr: Hrm... That may be true. 16:57:05 There it is. 16:57:24 gigabot: what would you recommend using in order to obtain the name of a package? 16:57:25 Whoops, I don't quite get you. 16:57:33 tcr: in the application i have in front of me, i use IGNORABLE rather than ignore (if that helps) 16:57:36 :-D 16:57:36 gigabot: how do I get the rest of a list 16:57:36 There is a Common Lisp function named REST. Maybe that does what you want. 16:57:44 <_deepfire> I wonder, sometimes, why didn't CL define a NAME generic function. 16:57:53 gigabot: How do I get the tail of a list? 16:57:54 Sorry, no idea. 16:57:59 nyef: I can't get the test functions from xrender.lisp to work (but I don't even know what they should output). 16:58:04 gigabot: how do I rename a package? 16:58:04 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 16:58:07 gigabot: How do I get the part of the list after the first element? 16:58:07 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 16:58:19 adeht: that's a good one. Hang on. 16:58:20 Bah let us please stop that 16:58:49 gigabot can also do private conversations and the interactions will be logged so I can expand his brain. 16:59:02 gigamonkey: Is AIML good for much beyond simple chat bots where most of the conversation state is held on the human side, or can it set up for actual semantic processing? 16:59:23 alama: You can't do what you want. Macros cannot meaningfully expand to declarations. 16:59:40 tcr: ok, i was afraid of that -- thanks 16:59:43 Well, AIML lets you have some context (the current 'topic') and the last thing the bot said. 16:59:49 So, for instance ... 16:59:54 gigabot: is scheme a lisp 16:59:54 Depends who you ask. 17:00:00 why not 17:00:03 gigabot: why not 17:00:03 Some folks feel it diverged too far from the platonic ideal of Lisp. 17:00:09 Ah. 17:00:12 gigabot: new topic 17:00:12 Okay. 17:00:31 -!- DeusExPikachu_ [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-61-202.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:00:42 But that's still largely scripted, and there's no underlying semantic representation, is there? 17:00:44 <_deepfire> gigamonkey, sounds like the "AI" part in AIML isn't really quite deserved.. 17:01:15 <_deepfire> whatever it stands for, it is misleading :-) 17:02:13 nyef: well, define semantic representation. 17:02:45 The other bit is the patterns can invoke other patterns. 17:03:09 So you can write input of one form into another form that may then cause it to match a patten you know how to say something about. 17:03:28 alama: the only thing you could do it to make screw-it look for forget at macroexpansion time, and insert (declare (ignore ..))s appopriately 17:04:17 <_deepfire> So, do people have an opinion on whether it'd be a good thing if CL defined a NAME GF? 17:04:26 _deepfire: Bad. 17:04:28 tcr: i'm trying the suggested by nyef: a macro that locally ignores variables 17:04:37 tcr: how would i do that at macroexpansion time? 17:04:42 alama: it won't work 17:05:02 alama: There's still the question of if IGNORE is valid as a "free" declaration or if it has to be associated with the binding form for the variable. 17:05:57 No, nyef, it doesn't matter whether it's allowed syntactically-wise 17:06:13 True, it's more of a semantic constraint. 17:06:24 well I _can_ think of a good use case for it 17:06:31 i think i might just screw-it, literally, and just explicitly put in the code i want; this macro doesn't really save me anything, to be honest 17:06:34 I meant "valid" more in the sense of "makes sense" than "is syntactically legal". 17:06:35 if you want the compiler to moan about the use of a binding in a scope 17:07:00 fe[nl]ix, ASDF, to a point, cares. 17:07:08 (about the number of dependencies) 17:07:14 <_deepfire> nyef, why do you feel it would be bad? How is it different, for example, from DESCRIBE? 17:07:28 alama: I congratulate you for that realization! Usually it takes us a fair amount of work 17:07:44 to convince newcomers of their stupidity :-) 17:07:45 tcr: :-> 17:08:11 <_deepfire> (I realise the property vs. computation difference, but what are the implications?) 17:08:36 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 17:08:41 Greetings lispers. 17:08:52 tmh: (greetings) 17:09:18 _deepfire: DESCRIBE is a programmers tool, not something that is really "core" to the language. SYMBOL-NAME is more core, but clearly an accessor. "NAME" is either ill-specified, open to a deal of abuse, or, if it's a programmers tool, easily replaced with FORMAT or similar. 17:09:46 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 17:10:29 -!- Fufie [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:57 <_deepfire> nyef, do you think that proliferation of various *-NAME accessors is a neutral feature? 17:11:07 ugh, i wish sbcl would shut up about unspecified structure :print-function's 17:11:19 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:11:23 can't it look ahead at the next form and see that yes, indeed, i do define the :print-function? :-> 17:11:35 alama: seems like you're doing something wrong 17:11:54 _deepfire: I'd call it object-name 17:12:05 snearch_ [~olaf@g225054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:11 deepfire: look at the -NAME functions in the CL package.. some of them don't take any object, some of them don't get "the name of the object" 17:12:16 tcr: either the structure print function definition comes before or after the structure definition; either way, one of the functions generates a warning when compiled 17:12:16 -!- gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:12:16 nyef: It can be useful for introspective tools. 17:12:38 <_deepfire> tcr, I'm not attached to a specific name, and I actually like your proposal more than NAME. 17:12:45 _deepfire: It's an efficiency thing, to an extent. I don't want to pay a full generic-function dispatch when I -know- that what I have is a symbol, but you can't really elide that with a full GF. 17:12:49 tcr pasted "object-name" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94296 17:14:07 for some reason, I find myself paralyzed when trying to refactor XCVB. I wonder how to unblock myself. 17:14:25 probably by approaching the issue differently. 17:14:41 alama: I don't understand what you're doing. Why don't you lisppaste an example and what you observe? 17:14:42 and starting a clean slate rewrite in a different tree. 17:14:52 Fare: Did you fight the last time you worked on it? 17:15:19 I find that big meshes of object classes make for a poor refactoring environment. When you change a teeny tiny thing, everything must change.. 17:15:32 tcr: fight? dunno, but yes, it's painful. 17:15:53 Fare: Yeah that affects subconsciousness :-) 17:16:03 xcvb has both things that are very satisfactory and things that are deeply unsatisfactory. 17:16:18 having good test suite helps 17:16:21 trying to preserve one while eliminating the other... tough. 17:16:32 well, I have a test suite for the macro-functionality, now. 17:16:39 but none for the micro-functionality. 17:16:49 <_deepfire> nyef, then, maybe the solution is to have both specific accessors, when there is a need for efficiency, and OBJECT-NAME for the generic case? 17:17:23 Fare: also in my experience it's a good time to rethink the big picture in that case if you aren't in fact doing something wrong, or could do it more easily 17:17:39 _deepfire: Yes 17:17:42 What's your use-case, though? 17:18:09 nyef: (print-unreadable-object (object stream :type t :identity t :name t)) 17:18:18 Which objects does OBJECT-NAME even apply to? 17:18:19 <_deepfire> nyef, I'm tired of exporting *-name symbols, basically. 17:19:24 tcr: Ah, an actual plausible use-case, even if it does fall into the "programmers tools" bucket. 17:20:03 I think I'm missing the big picture indeed. 17:20:04 alama pasted "unavoidable sbcl complaint about undefined accessor" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94299 17:20:13 pkhuong: there 17:20:32 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:32 -!- sytse [sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:32 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:32 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:32 -!- alexbobp [~alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:32 -!- Guest428 [~x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:32 -!- pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:32 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@84.249.39.103] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:32 -!- _deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:32 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- krappie [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- jroes [~jroes@rube.serapio.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- pok [~pok@80.91.231.253] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- mtd [~martin@82.68.80.108] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- beach [~user@86.201.115.84] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- dfox [~dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- Ri- [~ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- bakkdoor [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:33 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:55 interesting 17:20:59 alama: What was the error message? 17:21:05 XCVB has an underlying generic nodes-and-arcs dependency system at the bottom, and an ugly CL-specific dependency-manager at the top. 17:21:11 that feels wrong. 17:21:17 alama: What I mean is paste the exact message. 17:21:27 I'd like some generic system at the top and a CL-specific module on the side. 17:21:30 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:34 but I don't understand how to do it right. 17:21:41 alama annotated #94299 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94299#1 17:22:07 alama: And what do you get if it's the other way around? 17:22:19 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 Guest428 [~x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 alexbobp [~alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 sytse [sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 ineiros [~itniemin@84.249.39.103] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 _deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 krappie [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 jroes [~jroes@rube.serapio.org] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 30BAAAGGW [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 pok [~pok@80.91.231.253] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 mtd [~martin@82.68.80.108] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 beach [~user@86.201.115.84] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 dfox [~dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 Ri- [~ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 bakkdoor [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:22:22 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:22:23 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:22:25 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 17:22:26 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:42 nyef: that shouldn't matter, undefined-function-warnings should be deferred to end of compilation unit 17:23:03 That's true enough. 17:23:19 And you want the defstruct first anyway, so that the compiler can optimize the accessors. 17:23:27 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:33 Maybe I should rewrite XCVB as a Make replacement, forgetting everything about Lisp, then reinject CL support inside. 17:23:48 Or maybe I should drop XCVB, use OMake, and try write a CL plugin for OMake. 17:23:50 alama pasted "unavoidable sbcl complaint: part 2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94301 17:23:54 <_deepfire> nyef, oh, sorry, I meant to defstruct NAMED-STRUCTURE. 17:24:11 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:14 alama annotated #94301 "result of loading" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94301#1 17:24:15 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:19 <_deepfire> nyef, after all, the whole point is to be able to :include it 17:24:34 <_deepfire> aka cheap inheritance. 17:24:38 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:24:58 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 17:24:59 alama: I don't get that. 17:25:09 alama: Loading, or compiling and then loading the compiled file? 17:25:15 loading only 17:25:26 -!- hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:41 tcr: Each form in a file LOADed but not compiled gets its own compilation unit, hence the trouble. 17:25:47 -!- 30BAAAGGW [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:25:59 when compiling, no errors or warnings are generated (either way: structure definition before or after print function definition) 17:26:25 alama: It is -very- rare for any of us to just LOAD a source file without compiling it. 17:26:48 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 17:26:55 nyef: ah, ok 17:26:56 *Xach* is going to do that more frequently when he is fully on the logical pathname bandwagon! 17:27:04 nyef: actually, I do it very often. 17:27:11 (ADG works this way) 17:27:24 *nyef* sighs. 17:27:45 Okay, but in normal use/development? 17:28:05 (with-compilation-unit () (load "foo.lisp")) gives no warnings 17:28:09 also, when loading asdf.lisp and/or various initial build drivers. But yes, for normal code, compile then load is the norm. 17:28:23 fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:28:59 I wonder if once ASDF 2 is out, SLIME would use it instead of rolling its own adhoc build system. 17:29:20 what's the benefit? 17:29:49 addled [~adl@89.Red-83-36-62.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:05 code simplification. better integration. Ability to easily link slime into an ecl application. 17:30:05 i mean it already works and doesn't depend on anything, why change that? 17:30:25 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:31:24 the idea being that ASDF 2 would be distributed with every implementation, so you could rely on ASDF being there. 17:32:28 stassats`: I think a reason to change it is if it becomes unmaintainable and you find yourself with a pseudo-build system. 17:32:41 that's the idea of asdf 2 developers, do implementations support it? 17:33:24 Does asdf 2 solve many of the problems of asdf? 17:34:08 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 17:34:11 for example, ABCL still can't load current ASDF 17:34:30 djinni` [~djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:37 stassats`, interesting. What part of ASDF doesn't ABCL support? method combinations? 17:35:01 Fare: yeah, long form of d-m-c 17:35:02 -!- maelcoluim [~maelcolui@host81-102-109-68.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:35:04 stassats`: contribs could get their own .asd file, etc. specifying boundaries more clearly (that said I don't think an adoption will happen) 17:35:06 nyef: it solves only a few problems of ASDF. Mainly upgradability and configuration. 17:35:09 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:35:54 nyef: but upgradability means that if you solve another problem, you can easily deploy a fix wherever you need it. 17:36:07 instead of having to rely on the fix being solved upstream. 17:37:00 ZabaQ [~johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:25 though I can see another interesting issue wrt SBCL distributing the new ASDF2, which with the current SBCL ASDF hack would shadow any ASDF upgrade you'd like to distribute to replace it. 17:39:12 so you couldn't asdf:load-system :asdf, you'd have to load the new asdf.lisp. 17:39:30 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 17:39:34 shouldn't be a big deal 17:42:18 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-4831.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:42:56 euklides_ [~chatzilla@h95-155-239-237.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:17 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-35-82-250-247-83.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:44:24 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-32.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:45:47 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-32-82-254-9-185.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:15 maelcoluim [~maelcolui@host81-102-109-68.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:28 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:30 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-19-64.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:46:54 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:48:15 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:50:23 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:50:25 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:53:52 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:01 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:49 question about the usefulness of CALL/CC: can McCarthy's AMB be implemented in CL, where we don't have CALL/CC (which seems to be the obvious way to implement backtracking) 17:54:51 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:52 'morning 17:55:03 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 17:55:03 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-11574.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:55:09 sepult` [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:55:45 nowhere_man: you don't need call/cc to have continuations, and you don't need continuations to have backtracking. 17:55:45 drewc, memo from wgl: i see i missed some fun. The chris /dev/vcg0/chris-swap remove command came back to the prompt with the device removed. sounds like we can do it again, no? 17:56:32 minion: you should learn what channel someone added a memo in and only give it there! 17:56:32 what's up? 17:56:41 heh 17:56:55 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-27-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by sepult`!~user@xdsl-78-35-204-186.netcologne.de))] 17:56:55 minion: don't make me replace you with gigabot! 17:56:56 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 17:56:59 yes 17:57:14 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 17:57:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 17:57:59 nowhere_man: it's also incorrect to say we don't have call/cc .. what we don't have is scheme-style full continuations. 17:58:26 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:58:44 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 17:59:04 (though i understood what you meant, and might even use the terminology the same same) 18:03:04 stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 18:03:55 nowhere_man: beyond that, it's a turing completeness argument.... if you want non-determinism, try PAIP chapter 11, or On Lisp chapter 22 18:05:34 *drewc* also thinks AMB is probably just a monad 18:06:26 AMB = list monad 18:06:57 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: away! away!] 18:07:12 CWCC is just to let you write in direct style rather than that monadic notation 18:08:57 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:09:15 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:10 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:46 MissPiggy: does that only hold true for haskell? I think eager evaluation would get in our way in lisp 18:10:53 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 18:11:05 oh im not sure about that 18:12:09 well, lazy evaluation is probably a monad in CL... so the point stands 18:12:45 (regardless, continuations are a monad, so... :)) 18:12:53 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 18:13:29 *MissPiggy* is a monad 18:13:45 ... There's a joke somewhere around here about a "nomad monad". 18:14:00 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-117-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:05 cools [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:16 MissPiggy: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/dae/src2/monad.scm <--- search for amb-monad 18:14:20 nowhere_man: ^^ 18:14:52 heh... that's cheating though 18:15:02 uses eval 18:15:38 and hell : (define amb-monad 18:15:38 (make-monad 18:15:38 (lambda (a) (list a)) 18:15:38 (lambda (ma k) (append-map k ma)))) 18:15:41 18:15:44 18:15:48 MissPiggy: look like the list monad to me :) 18:15:52 *Xach* points drewc to paste.lisp.org 18:16:04 my apologises 18:16:16 s/ses/es 18:16:17 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:16:43 drewc: I just figured full continuations, and you baiscally force me to figure out monads 18:16:46 good code 18:16:50 (emacs had it all on one line) 18:16:51 sometimes, curiosity is hell 18:17:01 nowhere_man: i know the feeling :) 18:17:18 nowhere_man: you can start here : http://intensivesystems.net/tutorials/cont_m.html 18:17:45 drewc: works better with laziness (: 18:17:50 if you understand continuations, then monads wre not far off 18:18:06 pkhuong: yes, in the scheme paper they just add lazyness AFAICT 18:18:56 i did not read the whole thing... nowhere_man just set my Monad senses tingling :) 18:19:16 just change LIST and APPEND-MAP to the STREAM versions? 18:19:25 tcr, In your pasted "object-name" generic, the (function-name f) isn't accessible, what package exports that symbol? (sbcl) 18:19:45 MissPiggy: yeah, that's essentially making them lazy, innit :) 18:20:02 drewc: yes, that page is already on my reading list 18:20:03 Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:18 saikatc [~saikatc@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:58 -!- euklides_ [~chatzilla@h95-155-239-237.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:08 and re backtracking and continuations, I think backtracking is the only instance where the translation from monads into continuations needs full continuations so far (except the continuation monad, of course). For the other monads, you can get away with one-shot continuations. So, there is a relation between backtracking and continuations. 18:22:15 euklides_ [~chatzilla@h95-155-239-237.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:03 is there anyone who can link me Marco Baringer's video about slime for download? Guba's player trims the top of it and I can't read a few lines without setting it fullscreen 18:23:14 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:23:24 minion: slime.mov? 18:23:24 slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 18:23:36 Blkt: ^ 18:23:44 ah projects 18:23:46 -!- euklides_ [~chatzilla@h95-155-239-237.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:51 the link I found were with a missing dir 18:24:00 euklides_ [~chatzilla@h95-155-239-237.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:44 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-117-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:26:26 pkhuong: manual CPS translation (assuming TCO) is always enough though... right? 18:26:26 18:26:48 drewc: for what? 18:26:55 smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:59 to emulate anything you can do with call/cc 18:27:09 (turing argument, i know) 18:27:47 you can implement CWCC with CPS... 18:28:00 I mean that's how you do it even in a scheme compiler 18:28:07 That's not a local transformation. Of course you can compile just about everything to anything. 18:28:08 Has to be, doesn't it? Yeah, the scheme compiler argument. 18:28:13 MissPiggy: right, of course. 18:28:23 -!- sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:28:26 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:28:41 sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:43 *drewc* goes and has his coffee before asking any more silly questions with obvious answers 18:28:51 :( 18:28:55 johan____ [~johan@188-221-238-154.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:28:56 I thought I came p with a great answer :P 18:28:59 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:29:42 The point of the work on translating monad-using code into continuations is that continuations give you all the power needed to have the same effect as the monad (mechanically at that), only with local transformations (where you use something else than just bind/return). 18:30:11 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:33 there is a couple of papers on this (in the context of SML) 18:31:03 minion: slime? 18:31:03 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-34-53.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:31:04 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 18:31:06 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-3-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:37 minion: swank? 18:31:38 swank: Swank is distributed as part of SLIME and best installed from their CVS. http://www.cliki.net/swank 18:31:55 lol, this thing is awsome 18:32:04 -!- johan____ [~johan@188-221-238-154.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 18:32:07 minion: Genera? 18:32:07 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``Genera''. 18:32:10 Blkt: it also talkes over private messages! 18:32:11 fail! 18:32:15 (HINT) 18:32:20 ah thanks 18:32:23 talks* 18:32:35 *drewc* is needing that coffee soon! 18:32:48 hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:49 johan____ [~johan@188-221-238-154.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:32:51 Heh, I wondered what you meant. I thought you were suggesting that in PM you couldn't get a word in edgewise. 18:33:06 -!- johan____ [~johan@188-221-238-154.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 18:33:31 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:57 -!- sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:34 -!- hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Quit: hugod] 18:34:40 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:34:43 pkhuong: i guess i knew intellectually that monads = continuations in that sense, but i've never really thought through the implications 18:34:58 monads = continuations?? 18:35:08 sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:16 MissPiggy: continuation + mutable cell. 18:35:38 you can probably derive a program that does CPS conversion using delimited continuations from this 18:35:42 yeah, fair enough.. i still thing mutability comes by default :P 18:36:36 jsfb: It's sb-kernel:%fun-name; you can look into the swank-backends for how it is for other implementations 18:37:00 MissPiggy: no. That's the point of it all. You *don't* need a compiler (read non-local transformation). 18:37:03 tcr, thanks 18:37:24 what 18:37:57 See felleisen's definition of macro-expressibility for an in-depth exploration of the difference. 18:38:51 lambda: the ultimate monad 18:39:07 (that's what i would have called any paper on the subject! :P) 18:40:30 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:40:34 That's not true 18:40:39 You'd have used some silly acronym 18:41:29 no, that's for software.... papers, if i ever get the chance to write one, get pompous scholarly sounding titles with long subtitles. 18:41:48 and are typset in 'old AIM memo' style 18:43:05 milanj [~milan@93.87.180.142] has joined #lisp 18:45:05 -!- stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:45:06 sellout- [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:07 -!- sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:11 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 18:46:26 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:47:14 tcr: now that i think about it, the book i'm writing has an acronym for the title. It's _not_ silly though ... it's tribute! 18:47:52 -!- qwertycute [~j@137.186.34.139] has quit [] 18:48:01 anyone using snow leopard? 18:48:04 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 18:48:38 saikatc [~saikatc@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:48 Vinnipeg [~Vinnipeg@n1.jabber.d6.hsdnsrv.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:54 -!- sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:50:06 sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:19 -!- Vinnipeg [~Vinnipeg@n1.jabber.d6.hsdnsrv.net] has left #lisp 18:50:32 mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-daxyllfnrsgyvkeq] has joined #lisp 18:52:07 leo2007: usually. 18:52:25 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:52:45 Xach: I just installed sl some ten minutes ago. I wonder if you are running under 64 kernel or 32bit? 18:53:46 I don't know. 18:54:08 leo2007: even under 10.4 you could run SBCL in 64 bit mode. 18:54:40 drewc: tribute to what 18:56:00 pkhuong: I tried running gsll under 64bit ccl on leopard 10.5.8 and the test suite has more failures than under 32 bit ccl. 18:56:53 leo2007: possible. FWIW, I don't think GSLL exercises anything in the OS. 18:56:56 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:58:08 felideon: my title is "Paradigms of Web Application Programming : more case studies in common lisp" 18:58:26 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 18:58:58 PWAP? 18:59:20 PWAP! 18:59:26 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-252.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:21 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:01:06 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:01:13 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:45 hmm, is there any access to Unix exec() from sbcl? 19:01:55 *Xach* is failing, apropos-wise 19:02:02 leo2007: There are more tests in 64 bits than in 32, which could explain more failures. 19:02:45 LiamH: i see. i will do the test suite after I got everything installed again ;) 19:02:54 phao [~phao@189.107.146.76] has joined #lisp 19:03:11 HG` [~HG@xdslek104.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:34 Xach: defining your own shouldn't be that hard 19:03:46 stassats: i suppose not 19:05:01 -!- alama [~alama@bl14-193-175.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 19:05:51 alama [~alama@bl14-193-175.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:06:18 -!- konr [~user@201.82.133.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:06:42 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:07:08 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 19:08:09 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-46-43.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:08:26 Xach: There has to be, RUN-PROGRAM exists. 19:09:19 LiamH: the gsll website has a status file says 0 failures on CCL 64bit. Is that still the case? 19:09:23 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:12 leo2007: Ha ha ha. No. I'm seeing ~13 I think; I am running CCL 1.2 on 64 bit linux. 19:10:41 LiamH: 1.2? How many years old is that? 19:10:49 2ys 19:10:52 ~1.5 I guess 19:11:04 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:11:21 _deepfire pasted "printing anomaly in SBCL 1.0.34.7" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94311 19:11:26 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:33 nyef: run-program uses run-program.c 19:11:35 As soon as I figure out how to get clbuild to download/compile/run something other than sbcl, I'll get a newer CCL. 19:12:25 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:12:38 *Fade* keeps ccl separately from clbuild 19:12:58 Fade: Why's that? 19:13:56 -!- ZabaQ [~johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1] 19:14:08 saikatc_ [~saikatc@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:35 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 19:15:07 *lichtblau* never built ccl using clbuild, despite being the one who tried adding ccl building support to clbuild 19:15:12 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:15:24 _deepfire: I've seen that elsewhere; in output of disassembly 19:15:59 getting reasonably ccl binaries is easy, and I didn't have a need to rebuild it myself yet, much less semi-automatically through clbuild 19:16:20 LiamH: because when I started using ccl, getting it to build under clbuild didn't work. 19:16:33 Well I was thinking more of the running part, which would be nice through clbuild. 19:16:41 so I built it externally and updated clbuild.conf 19:17:00 Fade: Oh, OK, seems reasonable. 19:17:02 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:17:02 -!- saikatc_ is now known as saikatc 19:17:12 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 19:17:20 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 19:17:41 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:06 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:18:33 -!- splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-ywglylftkvvxyofw] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:18:58 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:06 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Client Quit] 19:19:38 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 19:20:16 -!- snearch_ [~olaf@g225054105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:20:49 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:21:22 -!- sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 19:22:39 lichtblau: I find it non-intuitive how to update ccl 19:23:13 <_deepfire> Fare, did you report success to juanjo? 19:23:22 xach: in looking in clsql/sql/utils.lisp, they use "sb-ext:run-program" as an example. 19:23:35 <_deepfire> I think I'll mail him now that ASDF works for me and I want it. 19:23:39 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:46 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:23:51 wgl: for what purpose? 19:24:06 <_deepfire> Although I guess checking how it fares on win32 would be nice as well. 19:24:52 To gather some command output, it seems. 19:25:29 also, in elephant/src/utils/os.lisp, they use sb-ext:run-program, i think as part of their configuration process. 19:25:33 wgl: I'm looking for a function to call to replace the current process with another process with the specified pathname and arguments. 19:27:41 xach: I am not finding one, but I thought I had seen one. apparently there is one for cmucl (execve), but not finding it for sbcl. 19:28:11 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-38-17.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:23 saikatc_ [~saikatc@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:56 *stassats* had execve for sbcl somewhere 19:29:23 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:52 not anymore, apparently 19:30:11 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:30:11 -!- saikatc_ is now known as saikatc 19:32:12 gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:10 unicode [~user@95.214.23.107] has joined #lisp 19:34:34 -!- TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 19:37:53 -!- alama [~alama@bl14-193-175.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 19:39:03 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:22 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:39 sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:40 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 19:42:30 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 19:42:56 hello 19:44:39 hi there 19:44:40 greetings, fe[nl]ix 19:45:16 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:20 hello Blkt, Fade 19:45:23 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:03 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 19:46:06 Guest89097 [~sdfd@mbl-65-158-9.dsl.net.pk] has joined #lisp 19:46:10 Hi All! I am not very good with software, i was booted out of a php forum, where my bread and butter along with my 20 employees since the past 4 years was coming from..due to sheer racism by the modz on that forum...i lost everything...my house..my business..and about to loose the little that i ahev left for my 2 newborns...i want to drill into the forum somehow...or take it down..or get control of it, Anyone please help! 19:46:36 oh my 19:46:50 This is your lucky day, I've just written such a program! 19:46:58 What a weird coincidence. 19:47:05 "Oh, look. A 'kickban me' request..." 19:47:14 Updating ccl might not be intuitive, but it's pretty straightforward, isn't it? 19:48:10 i'll pay $500 to get me the admin passwords for the forum 19:48:21 i need em quick 19:48:25 Guest89097: Go away. 19:48:26 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:50:12 ok $1000 19:50:37 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 19:50:40 wait, you're about to pay somebody for extracting your revenge? 19:50:41 get a life 19:50:46 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*sdfd@*.dsl.net.pk 19:50:52 rme: I dunno, I once remember that I broke something but I cannot remember what I did wrong 19:51:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 19:51:43 rme: I also do not like "get from separate branches"; I'd rather just have one branch, and a script which downloads the right image, say based on `uname` 19:52:46 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:52:56 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:58 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:54:17 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:54:23 -!- malcolm_reynolds [~malc@2001:630:13:101:226:bbff:fe14:b2be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:32 fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:54:59 Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-8-240.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:55:13 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:57 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-46-43.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:57:00 heh, the best things about calling my new collection of libraries "For The Web!" is that each one gets great name ... "Handler Dispatch FTW!" "Validation FTW!" 19:58:08 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 19:58:18 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:58:21 *Xach* waits for "ITYM" and "FTFY" 19:58:30 *Fade* laughs 19:58:38 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 19:58:43 ftw is an inspired name, imo 19:58:48 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.4] has joined #lisp 19:59:06 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:59:10 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:28 "Cookies FTW!" 20:01:10 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 20:02:18 -!- cmo-0 [~user@86.99.178.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:36 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:17 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:05:18 <_deepfire> Fare, latest ASDF is in CVS ECL now. 20:05:26 I'm still thinking that a good name for a speech-recognition framework would be "Talk to your Lisp". 20:05:35 "acronyms FTW!" 20:07:07 <_deepfire> Ok, the next issue is that ECL's RUN-PROGRAM can't pass even fd-backed streams to the spawned process. 20:07:07 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:07:42 <_deepfire> It's :INPUT and :OUTPUT keywords only acces T, NIL and :STREAM. 20:07:49 <_deepfire> *accept 20:07:52 speaking of ECL, has anybody succesfully used asdf:make-build? 20:07:59 *_deepfire* self-thwaps 20:08:09 it just doesn't exist in my ECL, so I can't try ECL's documented example of it... 20:08:20 <_deepfire> nowhere_man, I routinely use it on win32. 20:08:35 <_deepfire> And I successfully used it many times on Linux. 20:08:46 _deepfire, latest as in 1.596 ??? 20:08:58 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:09:03 or 1.502? 20:09:28 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:32 <_deepfire> Fare, I mailed him about 1.596, let me see what's in the actual tree.. 20:09:34 nowhere_man, cl-launch uses it, I believe 20:09:51 1.596 would be awesome, 1.502 not so great. 20:10:15 I did ECL-specific enhancements between the two, not to speak about AOT vs ABL 20:10:43 <_deepfire> Fare, 1.596, yes. 20:10:58 woot! 20:13:42 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:14:19 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:14:29 I'm not sure I did all the testing required for a release, though. I hope I don't have to tell him "please upgrade now again" 20:15:54 <_deepfire> Fare, well, part of the blame will fall on me :-) 20:17:51 drewc: ohh, so that's what pwap stands for. very nice. 20:17:52 -!- Guest89097 [~sdfd@mbl-65-158-9.dsl.net.pk] has left #lisp 20:17:56 antifuchs: are you available? 20:18:04 drewc: Monads for the web FTW! 20:18:23 tcr: no: http://mublag.boinkor.net/post/32198185/Veronikas-engagement-ring-v1-0There-is-going 20:19:08 here now (: 20:19:47 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:20:00 bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:12 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-184.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:20:27 antifuchs, fe[nl]ix: #vienna.lisp 20:21:36 *Fare* fixes the tests so that they work despite AOT. 20:22:14 antifuchs, congrats! 20:23:05 -!- bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:21 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 20:26:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-19-64.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Noooooooo!] 20:27:03 -!- euklides_ [~chatzilla@h95-155-239-237.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:21 euklides_ [~chatzilla@h95-155-239-237.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:04 -!- sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 20:29:29 <_deepfire> Okay, gdbserver-enabled common-db is getting closer. 20:32:18 _deepfire: What's this? 20:32:24 -!- maelcoluim [~maelcolui@host81-102-109-68.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:32:26 hugod_ [~hugod@vpn.touchtunes.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:31 hugod__ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:32:38 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:38 -!- hugod__ is now known as hugod 20:33:02 gdbserver, huh...? 20:33:31 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslek104.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:34:05 maelcoluim [~maelcolui@host81-102-111-88.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:07 <_deepfire> nyef, the method to drive JTAG-backed targets from gdb. 20:34:21 Neat. 20:35:02 <_deepfire> nyef, so implement the gdb remote serial protocol (Julian Stecklina's gdb-remote does that) and hook that into the target driver (common-db) 20:35:25 saikatc [~saikatc@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:30 fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 20:36:42 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@vpn.touchtunes.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:06 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:23 <_deepfire> Actually gdb RSP can be used to communicate to low-fat monitors on the target through a serial line, and that was its initial raison d'etre, I guess. 20:38:19 short FTW example pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94318 20:38:35 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:44 DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-61-202.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:50 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:39:19 oops, that was not supposed to go here, and my name is not Short FTW example :/ 20:39:46 your name is untitled? 20:39:52 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 20:39:56 saikatc_ [~saikatc@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:27 *stassats* often messes with name and title fields 20:41:41 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 20:41:48 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 20:41:50 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:41:51 -!- saikatc_ is now known as saikatc 20:46:53 hugod_ [~hugod@vpn.touchtunes.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:09 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:29 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 20:49:42 good evening 20:50:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:51:01 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@vpn.touchtunes.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:52:33 kami`: Good afternoon. 20:53:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: reboot] 20:54:09 -!- maelcoluim [~maelcolui@host81-102-111-88.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:54:46 nyef: I was reading your sbcl ARM port log the other day 20:55:17 and wondered whether there is anything a non-wizard could help with 20:55:33 I would like to learn a bit more about the internals of sbcl 20:55:34 become a wizard? 20:55:47 -!- dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:55:53 maelcoluim [~maelcolui@client-86-25-216-208.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:00 Hrm... That's a tough one. 20:56:16 and I would love to run sbcl on something like the slug 20:56:17 read code, modify stuff, have a burning need for something, or else have lots of spare time 20:56:41 i'm glad to hear that arm work is happening. 20:57:50 Krystof: the need is not really 'burning' but it'd be great to be able to run sbcl on something like those arm based routers 20:58:12 Or an arm-based tablet? 20:58:41 Demosthenes [~demo@204.52.135.62] has joined #lisp 20:58:41 then you either do the work to get good enough to do what you want, or fund someone else good enough to do what you want 20:58:54 nyef (: 20:58:59 there are few shortcuts that don't involve work 20:59:30 Athas` [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:59:55 Is there a ppc64 port yet? 21:00:12 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b30.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:14 nyef: don't think so. 21:00:19 nyef: for the PS3 ? 21:01:04 fe[nl]ix: I was more thinking for the Mac G5 tower I'm planning on picking up this weekend, but PS3 might almost be plausible. 21:01:21 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:02:55 nyef: are those still being produced ? 21:03:00 Probably not. 21:03:36 stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 21:03:56 i think IBM still makes 64bit power systems. 21:04:20 there was a small company making powerpc computers 21:04:22 i know they produce at least one cell based server blade. 21:04:32 A 64-bit ppc laptop might be amusing to see. 21:04:36 Fade: not for long. 21:04:52 nyef: as much as tadpole's luggable SPARCs? 21:04:57 the main problem of the G5 PPC970 was its power hunger 21:05:16 lispm: nothing compared to POWER6 (: 21:05:16 ccl runs on the PS3, but performance apparently feels more like a g4 than anything. 21:05:37 pkhuong: that's true, still my Mac needed water cooling ;-) 21:06:16 ccl on the PS3, hmm 21:06:58 -!- stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Client Quit] 21:07:45 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-45-109.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 21:07:56 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:08:15 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:09:32 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 21:09:50 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:10:40 SHARED-INITIALIZE :after is the way to go for input validation of the slots of a CLOS object, right? 21:11:03 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:11:17 tmh: is the input coming from make-instance? 21:12:11 drewc: Yes, or reinitialize-instance, sorry I didn't clarify. 21:12:16 tmh: validation means that it will signal an error if input is invalid? 21:12:17 tmh: and will the class be subclassed?, and if so, will that behaviour make sense for the subclasses? 21:12:59 stassats: Yes, signal an error, I don't have the energy for implementing recovery. 21:13:03 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 21:13:42 maybe then it's better to signal it before an object is created? 21:13:50 abugosh1 [~Adium@206.225.102.93] has joined #lisp 21:14:01 drewc: It may be, probably not, but that was my motivation for using SHARED-INITIALIZE, in the event I subclass it, I won't have to remember to validate these slots. 21:14:05 stassats: Good point. 21:14:08 malcolm_reynolds [~malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:14:22 stassats: SHARED-INITIALIZE :before ? 21:15:04 tmh: well, i have been leaning towards constructor functions lately, 21:15:33 especially if you plan to export the functionality, as it hides the implementation. 21:15:46 clhs 7.1 21:15:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_a.htm 21:15:49 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:16:23 drewc: Ahh! You are the one in combination with a blog post I read that motivated me to think of using SHARED-INITIALIZE and not constructor functions. :-) 21:16:45 drewc: But I've been leaning towards constructor functions + SHARED-INITIALIZED. 21:17:12 tmh: so, make-instance :before 21:17:19 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:31 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:17:35 stassats: thanks, I tend to look at the function specific pages and neglect the introductory material. 21:18:15 or maybe ALLOCATE-INSTANCE, i'm not sure 21:18:38 huh? shared-initialize sounded like a good choice to me 21:18:39 tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:40 pretty sure you can't define methods on make-instance 21:18:55 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-117-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:29 SBCL reports it as a generic function. 21:19:58 Umm, I mean DESCRIBEs it... 21:19:59 tcr: well, at the time of shared-initialize an object is already created, but you might not need if there are errors 21:19:59 clhs make-instance 21:19:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:19:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ins.htm 21:20:06 well, sounds like it is a gf 21:20:54 hrm .. maybe i'm wrong.. 21:20:57 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-74-101.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:21:12 stassats: So you're going to pass bad stuff to make-instance in an inner-loop at purpose? 21:21:33 Anyway, it looks like I need to do some more reading and make sure I'm checking things at the appropriate spot. 21:21:38 it's a GF, but there are a lot of GF's in AMOP that you are not allowed to specilize in certain ways... i though make-instance was one of them 21:22:05 -!- tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:22:06 tcr: i don't understand that sentence 21:22:11 looks like the CLHS says differently 21:22:18 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:28 stassats: Will it matter? 21:22:29 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:30 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:22:41 drewc: I've been moving towards using constructor functions to create an interface that works on classes and subclasses with validation in the appropriate methods. I'm basically lost. 21:22:41 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-74-101.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 21:22:54 stassats: he's saying that validating the arguments to make instance is a little bit late to be validating arguments if you care about speed 21:23:00 speed/space 21:23:28 drewc: but what if make-instance is an interface? 21:23:49 ehm that was his point, drewc. My point is: In most cases stuff is usually correct 21:24:11 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 see point 19 21:24:14 tcr: well, then i misunderstood you too :) 21:24:40 tmh: define a valdate-instance method that your constructor calls 21:24:54 tmh: subclasses specialize _that_ 21:25:28 tmh: if you use CLASS-PROTOTYPE, you can even validate the args before creating the instance 21:25:47 The royalty route is, imho: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/485718 21:25:48 drewc: In an incomplete linear algebra library I work on every once in a while I have that, initialize-matrix. Works well, but I was thinking I might be able to even get rid of that. 21:26:24 tcr: good point 21:26:54 -!- euklides_ [~chatzilla@h95-155-239-237.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:18 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:42 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:29:11 tmh: it really depends on use... personally, i'd have the validate-instance method regardless, and throw that in a shared-initialize if it fits, a constructor if i don't want to leak the fact that my protocol is implemented as a class 21:29:29 * using a class 21:29:31 whatever 21:29:54 drewc: one froydnj's last blog posts argued that you should use i-i and s-i for structures as well 21:30:05 this way, a subclass can override the validate method and not care if where it is run 21:30:14 as it's a well-specified initialization protocol, and of course independent of clos 21:30:15 tcr: what about functions? conses? 21:30:15 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:30:18 drewc: Heh, I have to use intelligence and judgment? Bah, I want strict policy so I don't have to think. 21:30:51 tcr: until i get turtles all the way down, i have to put the shells on myself 21:31:06 hm? 21:31:58 I'd like if constructors defined by defstruct would also involve initialize-instance 21:32:21 the (:constructor %make-foo) gets old pretty quickly 21:33:00 Lycurgus [~Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:31 hm otoh I'm not sure it's a good fit because structure's slots can't be unbound 21:33:46 they can be uninitialized 21:35:14 -!- etate [~cmalune@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 21:37:57 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 21:38:56 tcr: i'm saying that i want an initialisation protocol for functions as well 21:39:10 we're almost there really 21:39:28 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:20 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:42:33 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:51 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:47:01 I saw class prototypes get mentioned... where I can read about them online? I'm having some difficulty, I don't see it in the two AMOP chapters I can read, but its in sb-mop: :S 21:48:47 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:49:06 nixeagle: read more chapters! 21:49:07 http://www.alu.org/mop/dictionary.html 21:49:14 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:49:16 nixeagle: there is not much to know really 21:49:17 minion, tell nixeagle about closer-mop 21:49:18 nixeagle: direct your attention towards closer-mop: Closer to MOP is a compatibility layer that rectifies many of the absent or incorrect MOP features as detected by MOP Feature Tests. http://www.cliki.net/closer-mop 21:49:31 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:49:38 thanks 21:49:43 CLASS-PROTOTYPE returns an instance of the class... that's about it. 21:51:00 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:53:43 weirdo: very good :), closer-mop-shared.lisp is a good read :) 21:54:16 I know some lisps, like ISLisp, separate dynamic and lexical environments. Have any historical lisps separated macros and functions in a similar way? 21:54:21 francogrex [~user@168.112-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:55:18 ((macro if) ((function =) (dynamic a) (lexical b)) ((function print) ((special-operator quote) hi))) ? 21:55:20 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 21:55:59 sykopomp, you can separate them in PLT, if you want. 21:56:33 pjb: not to that extreme. Probably using functions and lexicals as the default environment, and then specifying stuff like (macro foo) for macros, and (dynamic foo) for specials. 21:56:44 Fare: how does that work? 21:57:07 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177144232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:43 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:58:34 you control the macroexpander. You could define a macro f and a function f and let the macro shadow the function when in application position, otherwise leave the function reachable in other positions and/or when otherwise accessed lexically 22:00:15 hm 22:00:15 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:00:22 sykopomp: well, the point of macros is to implement new operators, possibly "special" operators. First you'd have to ask why there's no distinction between functions and special operators, and then you'd have to tell us why you'd want a distinction between special operator and macros (if you want one), when the purpose of macros is to be like special operators. 22:01:55 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:16 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:03:50 pjb: I was wondering. The thought came to mind after a recent discussion about merging dynamic and lexical environments into the same namespace. The situation seemed somewhat similar to the fact that macros aren't the same as functions, and can't be applied the same way. 22:04:59 -!- abugosh1 [~Adium@206.225.102.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:08 there are some people however, who think that separating macros and functions (semantically) is just premature optimisation, and are working on an implementation to prove their point (: 22:05:20 sykopomp: in a way, you can always use funcall. (if (funcall (function =) (dynamic a) b) (funcall (function print) (quote hi))) 22:05:29 also as far as i know special forms are primitive features (whatever that is) 22:05:30 This leaves space for special operators and macros. 22:05:36 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:57 (You'd have to "define" funcall as a special operator). 22:06:09 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:14 saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-75-61-193-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:36 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:47 pkhuong: how do these functional macros differ from lazy evaluation? 22:10:33 *Fare* decides to let ASDF's test suite depend on external tools. 22:10:45 like, Stefil, to start with. 22:11:13 *nyef* is considering methods to reduce the dependencies in SBCL. Like, the C compiler, to start with. 22:12:15 nyef: well, if you want to play well with C and reuse libc / ffi functions, you better be able to link against C code. And a C compiler is handy for that. 22:12:36 nyef: by writing C compiler in Lisp? 22:12:38 granted, you could reduce the C part to a minimum. 22:13:04 stassats: That's not an impossible angle. 22:13:10 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:13 nyef: forth ? 22:13:41 I mean, right now I'm working on a tree that has less and less stuff in x86-64-assem.S. 22:13:55 -!- hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:32 Somewhere around I have a proof-of-concept for outputting a PE executable file from Lisp. 22:15:31 And there's that persistent "let's rewrite the GC in lisp" meme that keeps showing up. 22:15:36 why would you want to not use a c compiler? everyone has one already. 22:15:48 TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 22:16:05 I'm not sure, actually. 22:16:22 I'm spending a bit of time with ucw, to get a general feel for it. Does ucw support ajax at all? From what I've searched from, there's little information either way on the support. 22:16:32 To be able to bootstrap sbcl on a system without a C compiler, to make a point. 22:16:49 pjb: -That- point, I already made. SBCL-os. 22:16:52 Then let's ask gcc developer to have their compiler bootstrap on a sbcl system, after all, everyone has sbcl. 22:17:12 TDT: some people have added ajax bits to UCW. Or you could go the dwim.hu way -- they've refactored and cleaned up the code base a whole lot into a now completely separate set of libraries. 22:17:19 and they do support ajax 22:19:06 There's something that I don't know how to articulate, involving macros-as-rewrite-rules, compilers-as-rewrite-rules, issues with the application-deployment story for most common-lisp systems, debugging, and the obnoxious wait-time involved in the SBCL edit-compile-bugfix-compile-bugfix-compile cycle. 22:19:21 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 22:19:41 *nyef* sighs. SB!DI::FUN-END-BREAKPOINT-GUTS?!? 22:19:44 nyef: what did you think of culpepper's macro stepper? 22:20:04 and its parsing of rewrite steps? 22:20:10 My nemesis: XSLT-as-rewrite-rules. :) 22:20:11 tcr: they're macros. They do (hygienic) macro stuff. The nice thing is that macros that end up only doing function-like stuff are compiled as well as functions in current systems. 22:20:22 Fare: Ah hmm, thanks. I don't use a lot of ajax, well really none so far but want to pick the right framework to get into that'll allow the flexibility later 22:20:50 what does it mean to support ajax? 22:20:53 Fare: I'm afraid that I watched the presentation from the viewpoint of a CL programmer who is well versed in how the CL macro system works. "That's interesting, but I fail to see how it would help me." 22:20:54 TDT: what Fare said, with the additional info that UCW is a lot simpler than dwim.hu, and supports ajax fine using various different techniques 22:21:07 Xach: I was trying to avoid asking that. :) 22:21:17 Xach: it means you provide something that works over http, AFAIK. 22:21:55 myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-122-10.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 22:22:11 TDT: one does not pick frameworks if one wants flexibility :P... but UCW is quite customisable.. 22:22:13 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 22:22:24 you should rather compare ucw with hu.dwim.wui, because dwim.hu contains a lot of other different things like persistence, so it's more heavyweight 22:22:47 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:22:50 Fare: Do you know if the slides are available, though? I might find it more interesting given the lines along which I've been thinking over the past couple of days. 22:22:58 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:22:59 but hu.dwim.wui is just a web presentation layer 22:23:05 drewc: That's true to a degree, but some convention or inflexibility is fine - just wanting expandability. I'll keep looking for examples on how to implement ajax calls with ucw. 22:23:08 levente_meszaros: indeed 22:24:02 -!- ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:24:24 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:24:30 Xach: Specifically what I'm asking is more examples/tutorials and support for ajax calls - I'm not saying that something explicitly supports or doesn't support ajax, just that little information is available on implementation. I know very little about ajax, so part of this is my own lack of understanding hence hoping to find a code snippet or a tutorial of some sort. 22:24:34 -!- Athas` [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:42 TDT: the ucw-ajax tree contains old dead code that does a lot of ajax stuff in UCW. That tree became both ucw-core and hu.dwim.wui, so if you want to use either of those, it's a good read. 22:25:16 TDT: i use ajax in wigflip with hunchentoot, but it's mostly handwritten javascript and manually-generated XML. i'm not sure what sort of higher-level goodies you get with explicit "ajax support". 22:25:28 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:51 TDT: if you want tutorials, hand holding and the like, UCW might not be for you... it's fairly intermediate level lisp code, and underdocumented beyond the source (which is itself quite readable). 22:25:55 TDT, see the user interface demo at http://dwim.hu 22:25:57 an ajax request is just a request, and an ajax response is just a response, etc 22:26:08 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:26:24 it uses ajax and you can immediately look at the source too 22:26:24 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Peace...] 22:26:25 nyef, sending an email... 22:26:45 hu.dwim.wui uses ajax by default, and most of the time you hardly need to do anything 22:26:52 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:11 it just figures out what components it needs to send to the client and will do automagically 22:27:27 TDT: if you're looking for explicit ajax support, UCW doesn't have it.. UCW is just the Read Eval Response Loop, really. 22:27:27 in the meantime, you can see on his page... http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ryanc/ 22:27:57 as soon as a component has a remote identity (on the client) it can be rendered (and replaced) on its own 22:28:32 levente_meszaros, the dwim.hu site is quite slow, and shows everything in a small frame. 22:29:06 drewc: If I'm able to get it to work with ucw though I would be OK with that. I'm just dabbling into the intro to ucw at the moment so maybe I'm "jumping the gun" a bit much so far 22:29:07 Fare, slowness is because there are tons of context menus (which should be lazy) 22:29:29 Fare, what do you mean by a small frame? 22:29:48 is dwim.hu bandwidth bottlenecked? 22:29:52 the darcsweb embedding is particularly naughty 22:30:12 Fade, it used to, but now the network connection should not be a problem 22:30:33 like, only 480 px wide, instead of 3 times that 22:30:36 are you usingn some kind of syntax sugar in this code? 22:30:38 Fare, ah, I know that, but that's iframes stupidity which I didn't want to fight through 22:30:40 levente_meszaros: yeah, I went there earlier, the site is knida cool in a way but I may just have to read more about it. 22:30:56 levente_meszaros: why does collapsing/expanding each subsection take more than a split second? Why does it warrant a little loading/refreshing icon? 22:30:57 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-154-80.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:30:59 Fade, well, for XML definitely 22:31:31 I see a lot of forms like: (def function executable-toplevel () ... ) 22:31:39 Fade: run away! 22:31:44 minion: cl-def? 22:31:44 cl-def: cl-def is a definer macro similar to DEFINER but focusing on much better user extendability. http://www.cliki.net/cl-def 22:31:46 felideon, that's the generic case how ajax works, and that special case is not optimized 22:31:54 o_0 22:32:02 Fade: dwim.hu is written in a common-lisp like language ;) 22:32:02 so the server keeps track of the gui state and sends down the collapsed content 22:32:16 *levente_meszaros* thinks the lazy context menus must be implemented next week 22:32:16 levente_meszaros: oh ok, yes I just loaded up firebug and noticed the POST request 22:32:18 alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:32:29 *levente_meszaros* should speed up stuff by an order of magnitude 22:32:56 ... this is a very strange dialect. 22:33:11 It's like looking at street directions in wales. 22:33:54 levente_meszaros: is it serving just as an example? or is there a reason you want to keep that state on the server? 22:34:07 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 22:34:09 ramus [~ramus@99.23.143.1] has joined #lisp 22:34:46 felideon, huh, lots of details there 22:34:52 the state is not mandatory 22:35:02 your new package pages are scant in terms of docs 22:35:03 you can have sessionless web stuff too 22:35:21 but in general components have states 22:35:44 a component is a slotless class that can handle certain generic function calls 22:35:52 Sergio`_ [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:36:12 quite a number of those are provided by wui, some widget, some meta, etc. 22:36:35 Fare, I can't follow you... too much slang 22:36:46 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:54 er, or my english is broken 22:36:58 the description tab has one sentence 22:37:08 no documentation tab 22:37:12 Fare, heh :) somewhat better than zero 22:37:29 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:37:33 look, we are three people, and we have projects which have deadlines 22:37:40 sure, sure 22:37:59 so unless someone is paying for documentation, I guess there won't be too much 22:38:09 better code w/o docs than docs w/o code 22:38:24 sometimes 22:38:36 at least in terms of project successfulness 22:38:44 sometimes 22:38:50 :) 22:38:56 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:39:05 Sometimes the project deliverable -is- the documentation, and the code is entirely ancillary. 22:39:23 exactly 22:39:23 The worst situation is code with incorrect/obsolete docs. 22:39:32 nyef, sure, but not in business application where we are working 22:39:48 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:40:16 <_deepfire> It's fun, GDB's documentation is both incomplete and incorrect. 22:40:34 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:43 levente_meszaros: instead of paying you for documentation, they pay you to create an increasingly complex framework? :P 22:41:08 Heey... incomplete and incorrect documentation? Sounds like SBCL internals! 22:41:18 dwim.hu's new package system has broken my stefil install :( 22:41:26 drewc, ssssh, keep quiet, they might hear you :P 22:42:00 dlowe, how? 22:42:34 levente_meszaros: i won't tell yours if you don't tell mine :) 22:42:37 levente_meszaros: I don't feel like pulling down all the dwim.hu support libraries, that's all. like hu.dwim.asdf 22:43:19 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:42 dlowe, I can't help about that 22:44:04 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 22:44:04 maybe we could have a single darcs repo with tons of asdf systems :) 22:44:20 so, you would not have a choice, hehe 22:44:24 *drewc* has an old fork of stefil that relied on nothing but swank somehere 22:44:26 drewc: so let me understand, FTW! eventually going to replace a few libraries that ucw-core depends upon? 22:44:37 levente_meszaros: I think I'll just stick with my old stefil install, thanks. :) 22:44:51 felideon: no, there is no relationship between FTW! and UCW 22:44:53 Fade: Hungarian Common Lisp is indeed pretty particular :) 22:44:55 no problem, but don't expect anything new there :) 22:45:15 sykopomp, god save me from hungarian notation 22:45:31 levente_meszaros: god save the rest of us from hungarian common lisp 22:45:59 drewc: what do you hate so much about it? 22:46:04 drewc: oh, so it's your web framework from scratch? a baby you can call your own? :) 22:46:11 drewc, god save me from not simplifying my life when I can :P 22:46:16 ... Does anyone know if the test suite covers :fun-end breakpoints? 22:46:35 levente_meszaros: you keep using that word, i do not think it means what you think it means :P 22:46:58 sykopomp: i think it solve a whole lot of non-problems while creating a whole bunch of real problems 22:47:08 felideon: yeah, pretty much :) 22:47:10 drewc: can you be more specific, less hand-wavy? 22:47:30 drewc, words are subjective to some degree (in this sentence) 22:47:55 sykopomp: cl-def and defclass* and metabang.bind .. i don't see a problem with defun and deflass and let* 22:48:08 drewc: nice. I hope to be able to get a good grasp on ucw before you release a 0.0.1 of FTW! 22:48:17 sykopomp: the function defining problem is not one i think i need to solve 22:48:46 drewc: after the discussion about protocols, I agree with you on defclass*, but I don't see how that applies to def and bind. 22:48:46 nor is the binding form problem, nor is the defining a class problem... 22:48:57 is daniel herring here? 22:49:01 Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:12 drewc: you don't need to solve it. The library already exists. What problem does it _create_? 22:49:13 <_deepfire> antifuchs, I never saw him here 22:49:20 ah, ok 22:49:24 sykopomp: there is no problem! 22:49:44 sykopomp: if i take insulin to solve my blood sugar problem, but i am not a diabetic, i create problems 22:49:46 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:49:55 drewc: " sykopomp: i think it solve a whole lot of non-problems while creating a whole bunch of real problems" <-- 22:50:12 right... i do not think that def and bind solve problems 22:50:18 drewc: you create a problem by overloading your system with insulin, which can make you unhealthy. 22:50:38 <_deepfire> Insuling converts sugar into fat. 22:50:39 sykopomp: exactly! macros and syntax are unhealty 22:50:40 drewc: you could argue that def establishes an extensible protocol for a common pattern in CL. 22:51:32 sykopomp: you could indeed. I would argue that there is no need for something that is so entirely unspecific that it's really just a matter of naming. 22:51:54 sykopomp: the form being named defun or (def function) does not make a bit of difference 22:52:23 sykopomp: it doesn't hurt readability (and i might argue it helps) to have forms that do different things have different names 22:52:33 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:52:34 <_deepfire> drewc, note how you try to point that the above libraries do not /improve/ things -- your original claim was that they /add real problems/ 22:53:08 drewc: I think you can do some pretty neat things once you have DEF, actually. 22:53:08 drewc, what about setf? 22:53:15 _deepfire: yes, the problems are that hungarian common lisp is recognisable as idiomatic lisp code to a lisp programmer, namely me. 22:53:16 in an object-oriented way, in fact. 22:53:29 drewc: recognizable or unrecognizable? 22:53:32 sykopomp: ohh. object oriented, so it must be good 22:53:33 for please-dont-stab-me-you-know-what-i-mean values of 'object-oriented' 22:53:39 damn, too late. 22:53:40 unrecognisable* 22:53:49 sykopomp: no idea what you mean 22:54:48 Adlai: generalized reference is a feature i use all the time, and not needing to know the name of a set-foo! function is a win 22:54:56 drewc, what's idiomatic lisp code? is it not parenthesis and letters? 22:55:06 <_deepfire> drewc, basically the semantic-load-to-benefit ratio is too small for these primitives? 22:55:15 levente_meszaros: if you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know :P 22:55:19 <_deepfire> er, too large 22:55:24 _deepfire: exactly 22:55:33 drewc: what's the difference between knowing the name 'set-foo!' when that's the idiomatic way of writing setters for a 'foo' reader? 22:55:39 <_deepfire> That's what you should have said, then. 22:55:59 drewc: by the same token, I need to know that the class definition macro is 'defclass'. 22:56:01 _deepfire: my way with words is not quite as good as yours :) 22:56:08 sykopomp: right, or def class ... 22:56:11 sykopomp: what's the win? 22:56:43 sykopomp: what is the idiomatic setter function for a variable? 22:56:44 drewc: the same difference between (setf foo) and (set-foo!) 22:57:13 hint: there is none.. assignment is an abstraction that has value. 22:57:27 european or african I mean lexical or dynamic? 22:57:38 Adlai: symbols are not variables 22:57:48 (i just went through that) 22:57:52 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:11 drewc, did I say they were? :\ 22:59:01 levy pasted "reader+walker" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94325 22:59:19 hmm, this one is getting interesting 22:59:22 -!- TDT [~dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:59:44 prxq [~mommer@f050203096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:59:48 f00 23:00:01 levente_meszaros, what is that? 23:00:03 Adlai: fair enough, you didn't :) 23:00:25 Adlai, source reader + walker -> describe what's at a position 23:00:30 and what are the lisp objects that are getting printed as [2..7] ? 23:00:53 *Adlai* can guess what they represent, but what are they? 23:00:53 Adlai, means that the original source from position 2 to 7 is ... 23:01:00 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-75-61-193-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 23:01:02 a class 23:01:05 er instance 23:01:12 whatever 23:01:16 that's not the point 23:01:35 you have a function that takes a string and a position in that string and returns a description of that position 23:01:54 in terms of semantic information while handling whitespace and formatting 23:02:03 even custom readtables, etc. 23:02:24 you can use this to syntax highlight, pretty print, tell info what's under the cursor etc. 23:02:46 for each position it returns a list of things 23:02:58 sykopomp: Every single setf form takes the same shape ... (setf value). The same is not true for DEF forms at all. 23:03:06 where each thing is a character range and a description (there's a walked form behind that) 23:03:09 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:03:29 Guthur [~Michael@host81-159-209-176.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:49 sykopomp: unless you're going to argue that &rest forms is the same thing as
... 23:03:58 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-32-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:04:02 drewc, every def form takes the same shape ... (def :) 23:04:12 drewc: I didn't do it! He did! 23:04:20 levente_meszaros: yeah, mabe there should only be one form! 23:04:26 (DWIM ) 23:04:28 kefka [~user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:32 that's what I always say 23:04:36 easy to read! 23:04:44 infinite number of packages and just use the ONE form dwim 23:04:58 of course, understanding what it does involves reading infinite packages writting in HCL ;) 23:05:14 which is my point made by taking DEF to a logical extreme ;) 23:05:21 levente_meszaros: did you find the DEF abstraction valuable beyond aesthetics? 23:05:34 adeht, it's not just about aesthetics 23:05:41 levente_meszaros: that's my question 23:05:57 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:06:00 oh, yes 23:06:02 (dwim:ftw) <--- let's all live in peace 23:06:14 (def closure :free-variables (y z) (lambda (x) (+ x y z))) <--- yup, i see that it add a lot of clarity :P 23:06:20 levente_meszaros: can you elaborate on that? 23:06:26 -!- MissPiggy [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:06:29 adeht: there's the 1-char options it has, like #\e, but I'm not too sure I like that ;) 23:06:45 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:06:47 drewc: looks like PHP! 23:06:53 def function for example has a number of other options 23:06:57 sykopomp: that's not DEF, that's DEF FUNCTION 23:07:10 inline, optimize, export, debug, etc. 23:07:31 drewc: and RETURN-FROM for clarity 23:07:51 levente_meszaros: why is that better than a DEFINE-FUNCTION macro? 23:07:54 (def function (def list :values (x y)) (def binding ((a 1)) (def application-of-+ :arguments (a x y)))) 23:07:55 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-107-172.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:08:40 adeht, there are other similar definers, all look similar 23:09:16 drewc: that's a bit ridiculous. 23:09:26 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:27 adeht, that's more the aesthetics part 23:09:30 sykopomp: so is DEF. 23:09:34 levente_meszaros: so that's aesthetics.. but what about help in code generation, or tools working on code 23:09:42 obviously you could have all those options in DEFINE-FUNCTION too 23:09:59 Hrm... looks like there -are- some :fun-end breakpoint tests... Or, rather, breaking them breaks (trace encapsulate nil) and (trace-recursive encapsulate nil) tests. 23:10:04 levente_meszaros: what does it mean to inline a class? 23:10:11 *nyef* re-rebuilds, just to make sure. 23:10:26 drewc, def class does not have inline option, obviously 23:10:36 *Fare* likes the principle of DEF, but never used it 23:10:46 or rather: i have to know the syntax of each individual DEF type anyway, what do we gain by making things that are all different look the same? 23:10:49 actually, I was fancying a general def like that earlier 23:10:52 it has other export options for example, accessors, slot names, etc. 23:10:54 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 23:11:18 drewc, more declarative, can reuse infrastructure 23:11:27 drewc, all writer forms look the same -- (setf ....) 23:11:31 they neither different, nor the same, they are similar to some extent 23:11:45 welp, for one, I like that you experiment with the language that way.. you write actual code so you get to test your abstractions 23:11:46 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:47 "The more things change, the more they stay the same" 23:11:53 Adlai: so all writer forms are writing.. all defining forms are defining... that's the logic 23:11:59 drewc, you have to know the syntax of any lisp form to use them 23:12:10 alama [~alama@a95-95-138-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 23:12:11 it's a same I am brwosing the cl projects and there are many unfinished abandoned ones; like this cl-x86-asm and many others 23:12:14 no matter whether they are called DEFINE-FOO or anything else 23:12:20 drewc, I'm just pointing out that there is one such abstraction rooted into CL already 23:12:30 no matter whether they are functions, macros, special operators or anything else 23:12:33 Adlai: right, and i;m making sure i follow 23:12:52 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 23:13:21 Adlai: pointing out things that are deep rooted in CL is not neccesarily a good thing... just because the hyperspec uses setf at the toplevel doesn't mean it's a good idea :) 23:13:52 setf at toplevel is a generational thing 23:13:55 well, setf at top level is a good idea. So there :) 23:13:59 drewc: no, but it suggests that the idea is not necessarily unacceptable for Lisp. 23:14:09 post-hyperspec people go "OH IT'S UNSPECIFIED. DO NOT USE" 23:14:17 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:14:24 pre-hyperspec people had an expectation of how repls behaved generally 23:14:41 setf at toplevel on a symbol not previously defined as a variable is wrong. Not even undefined, but wrong on the same level as an invalid lambda-list. 23:14:43 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.51] has joined #lisp 23:14:50 drewc, defclass involves a toplevel setf, just not of a symbol... 23:14:52 I doubt "this should not be done" was the intent of the writers of the spec 23:14:54 right. As does everybody else. Excluding language lawyers 23:15:20 well, setf and the concept of place helps a lot with macros.. 23:15:25 nconc should not be used (mostly) 23:15:26 nyef: no. its right. neener neener. 23:15:29 ok, so here's the rub then : what does the form to define definers look like, and does it do more than DEFMACRO? is there a meta-definer protocol? 23:15:37 yet, we have mapcan and no mappend :( :( :( 23:15:43 I'm asking if DEF has something similar to offer 23:16:16 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.143.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:16:22 SETF has 20 different ways to create a place.... is the same true for DEF, and BIND, and does a reader macro called #F really make the empty list a true value? 23:16:41 drewc, given that hu.dwim.foo's source is riddled with (def (definer ..) frob ..), I'm guessing that there is a meta-definer protocol. I haven't examined the details, though. 23:16:42 drewc, definers are defined using def, but that's just to be perverse 23:17:01 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-147-65.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:12 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:17:17 prxq: Okay, for setf, it's merely undefined, as the symbol does not represent a place. 23:17:26 levente_meszaros: are there different ways, or is def definer just basically defmacro with a new name? 23:17:45 -!- milanj [~milan@93.87.180.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17:46 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:18:10 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:14 drewc: I can see BIND has something to offer.. maybe the problem (if at all) is just bad syntax decisions 23:18:14 levente_meszaros: (setf (find-definer 'function) (make-definer :lambda-list ... :expander ...)) 23:18:17 the complaint (i'm over the ()) i have is the verbosity of the function names - a lil more structure would be nice, guess i'll have to make my own synonyms 23:18:18 drewc, similar but with extra features 23:18:35 a functional protocol, that i could see as useful 23:18:50 rares: you mean about lisp? 23:18:57 drewc, yep, there's a make-definer function. 23:19:02 *Adlai* is looking at http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.def;a=headblob;f=/source/infrastructure.lisp 23:19:06 drewc, #f encodes my intention 23:19:07 adeht: what does bind offer... same as DEF and SETF right? a single name for different things that share an interface? 23:19:13 I can't help about the value 23:19:26 rares: you'll appreciate it after a while, when you realize you can actually read what you wrote two months ago. If you have carpal tunnel, make sure you tab-complete :) 23:20:05 drewc, decreases the nesting level 23:20:06 nyef: I think it is clear what one expects of setf at top-level. Any other behavior is just impractical. Well IMO, anyway. I'm quite happy that the lisps I use agree with me. 23:20:14 that's the most important part of it 23:20:16 drewc: not just that.. I suppose it can be used to define WITH-XXX style macros as well 23:20:22 levente_meszaros: NIL encodes your intention that it's FALSE, '() and emtpy list... what does #F say? 23:20:38 the opposite of #t as opposed to t 23:20:48 and what is #T ? 23:20:53 Is there something like #+ that can emit more than one form in sequence? 23:20:55 prxq: does sbcl agree with you? 23:20:55 drewc, what is the bottom type? 23:21:04 stassats: yes. 23:21:12 levente_meszaros: define 'bottom'? 23:21:17 (def bottom ..) 23:21:17 drewc, #f an #t encodes the intention for boolean values 23:21:24 nil and t for the bottom and top types 23:21:30 () is the empty list 23:21:31 drewc: sub, catcher? 23:21:40 can't help about the values 23:21:44 drewc: you can find more such protocols in On Lisp.. the ! protocol, for instance 23:21:48 prxq: and you know that it doesn't proclaim it special? 23:22:06 levente_meszaros: who are you encoding you intention for? your audience is scheme programmers? 23:22:28 stassats: exactly 23:22:30 Adlai, we could have chosen other syntactic abstractions too... 23:22:40 drewc, no, it's me 23:22:48 I like SETF.. the others I don't normally use, maybe because they're not mature enough, or deemed useful enough.. but I'm wondering about their potential 23:22:49 drewc, and it's worth it 23:22:53 for me :) 23:23:00 *Adlai* isn't criticising, just absent-mindedly toeing the line between the trollhouse and the peanut gallery 23:23:06 levente_meszaros: why not use t for 'true', nil for 'false', and () for "this is a list I want to push stuff into"? 23:23:13 I don't care about scheme, nor do I care much about CL 23:23:16 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:17 sykopomp, aesthetics 23:23:20 levente_meszaros: as long as you agree that it's a selfish thing, and that you understand why i find your code inconsiderate and offensive :P 23:23:21 ... "trollhouse cookies"? 23:23:34 Fare: that's a pretty worthless 'improvement' 23:23:36 sykopomp, and scheme influence. 23:23:41 can I rebuild ccl64 without 'to rebuild Clozure CL on Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard, you must install the optional 10.4 support when installing Xcode.' 23:23:55 sykopomp, no. The *improvement* is to make intentional distinctions in syntax. 23:24:09 drewc, I don't think it's selfish, I would say it's my personal taste which you don't like 23:24:10 sykopomp, *which* choice of syntax to use is a matter of aesthetics 23:24:14 leo2007: i guess you can rebuild lisp part 23:24:23 and I don't want to change that (not that I could anyway :) 23:24:24 Fare: using t and nil does the same thing. 23:24:33 sykopomp, t and nil are symbols 23:24:34 Fare: and it doesn't even touch the underlying semantics of the language. 23:24:42 #t and #f are a different syntax 23:24:58 choice of aesthetics. Special syntax frees identifiers for other uses (assuming they are shadowed) 23:25:00 #t is stupid. It should be $t 23:25:04 Adlai: I'm arguing that it's kind of a worthless change, if the semantics are the same. 23:25:10 prxq, for the PHP programmer within? 23:25:10 you mean &t 23:25:13 leo2007: try just (ccl:rebuild-ccl) 23:25:34 I want ^t, like the macros in cells and lexicons 23:25:42 Adlai: no, because it smells of money. Since it doesn't matter anyway... I mean.. :-) 23:25:54 #t and #f would make sense if they _didn't_ expand to T and NIL, and you had true? and false? 23:26:04 ^ 23:26:09 I want  for truth 23:26:11 stassats: it is compiling. what does the :full t mean? compile both x86 and x86_64? 23:26:16 drewc, and if (lisp-implementation-type) evaluated to "PLT" ? 23:26:21 Fare: that looks great 23:26:25 (push #f #t) <-- weeee 23:26:56 drewc, intention to me is more important than what the actual value is 23:26:57 Adlai: the day i call scheme lisp is the day you pry my function namespace and nil-punning from my cold dead hands 23:27:04 that's why I hate regexps for example 23:27:07 is there something entirely in CL for building and using relational databases (SQL type?) 23:27:19 in the real world there is no such thing as t or f only did i get hit by a beseball or not (baseball) = true () = false - you can't get hit by a nothing and register it 23:27:24 they are pretty bad at encoding the intent, try looking the the proper email address matcher... 23:27:30 levente_meszaros: if code is written just for you, sure, do what you want. DREWCLISP has lots of syntax and shortcuts. 23:27:35 leo2007: afair, full means recompile everything (not just changed files) and recompile the kernel 23:27:40 drewc: well be together on that hill 23:27:45 drewc, I'll tempt you with monads. 23:27:54 leo2007: well, you have documentation 23:28:02 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:28:02 Adlai: i have monads 23:28:03 every time i read about monads i understand them and then i forget 23:28:13 monads are like burritos 23:28:21 prxq: Full of beans? 23:28:28 drewc, we hardly push this on anybody 23:28:31 prxq: i feel that right now 23:28:37 Adlai: and i can emulate type-class like behaviour with dynamicly scoped operators... which you can pry from ... 23:28:41 unless BSD is an act like that 23:28:58 levente_meszaros: i know, but it would be nice if was useful to others, i think. 23:28:58 http://blog.plover.com/prog/burritos.html <-- look here 23:28:59 scheme doesn't have dynamic scope? :-o 23:29:18 drewc: but is your meaning function a homomorphism from the syntactic monoid onto the semantic monoid? 23:29:20 fluid let does not a dynamic binding make! 23:29:23 I DIDN'T THINK SO 23:29:42 stassats: ok. i'll take a look when my os is functional. 23:29:46 sykopomp: not yet :P 23:30:03 drewc: lies. 23:30:06 but how do you like the source analyzer??? 23:30:11 leo2007: you're on a disfunctional OS 23:30:13 ? 23:30:17 or maybe  ? 23:30:47 levente_meszaros: is it written in HCL? 23:30:48 fatalnix [~Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:53 -!- fatalnix [~Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:54 it could handle beasts like: (lambda (let) (let ((list 12)) (list list let \"12\"))) 23:31:06 drewc, no it's in CL 23:31:17 drewc, but CL is a programmable programming language 23:31:23 drewc, sorry about that 23:31:24 -!- francogrex [~user@168.112-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:26 drewc, doesn't lispworks name one of its system packages "HCL" ? 23:31:26 drewc: "ball of mud" 23:31:34 drewc, maybe, you could switch to Java? ;-) 23:31:42 prxq: I just installed snow leopard. I am in the process of setting it up. 23:32:04 levente_meszaros: just becuase you can do something, doesn't mean that you should ;) 23:32:15 levente_meszaros, how does the source analyzer deal with macro forms? 23:32:30 fatalnix [~Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:32 so, cl-python is CL too? 23:32:36 with great power comes, ah fuck it lets just make it look like my dream language and screw anyone else! 23:32:45 Adlai, expands them and maps the identity of input to output forms if they were kept 23:33:00 so, there might be problems if you macro rewrites the universe 23:33:09 stassats: no, CL is C 23:33:15 stassats: ECL proves that! 23:33:29 levente_meszaros, you mean identity of the cons cells in the source? you lost me at "maps", I think. 23:33:34 stassats: well, you can't evaluate cl-python code by just putting an (in-package :cl-python) form on top of a file. 23:33:46 sykopomp: (in-reader :cl-python) 23:33:47 drewc: Embedded C Lisp? 23:34:01 sykopomp: non? 23:34:06 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-210-22-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:06 Adlai, yes for cons cells, but for other source forms too if the macro is a "nice" macro 23:34:06 stassats, you mean a hardware running clisp bytecode? :D 23:34:10 drewc: then I guess that might be considered CL. 23:34:20 sykopomp: on my setup you can C-c C-c an org-mode file... 23:34:22 Adlai, an example is WHEN 23:34:27 is org-mode Common Lisp? 23:34:41 e.g. (WHEN 1 1) 23:34:54 although I think the intention of 'ball of mud' was 'still looks like common lisp'. One of those subjective things, though. 23:35:06 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-38-17.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:10 HCL is still fairly recognizably lisp, I think, but I don't think there's a solid line anywhere. 23:35:26 davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:29 levente_meszaros, can you "register" macros with this parser and have it interpret them differently? 23:35:32 keeps the identity of those numbers 23:35:35 sykopomp: the point is i don't want to learn 2 new languages just to use some code 23:35:40 one is enough 23:35:54 CL already has enough corner cases 23:35:56 Adlai, yes that's what I do 23:36:11 but this is far from being finished, but gives life signs 23:36:13 (that one being the domain specific language that the author has built /on/ lisp, as it were) 23:36:19 drewc: do you make a sharp distinction between library and language? 23:36:45 adeht: Mu. 23:36:46 drewc, you dislike macros then? 23:36:54 levente_meszaros: yes 23:37:02 drewc: really? 23:37:04 ah, now I see 23:37:13 I guess I need some sleep on that 23:37:24 bb 23:37:29 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-45-109.vodafone.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 23:37:45  instead of #t ? 23:37:52 i dislike having to work for a living too, but i recognize that it's neccessary. 23:38:07 macros are evil, but you can't have good without evil :P 23:38:24 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:50 drewc: macros ain't that bad! 23:38:51 Fare: that's much better 23:39:13 much better than #t 23:39:23 #t/#f are pretty shit. 23:39:25 imnsho 23:39:40 sykopomp: you have a problem that's not 'transform syntax to a well thought out functional interface', so you use macros... 23:39:41 how about  and  23:39:57 you can call it GreekLisp --  and  and , oh my! 23:40:00 sykopomp: now you have N>1 problems 23:40:03 *stassats* looks at (define nil #f) (define t #t) in his scheme program 23:40:26 drewc: but a Java ain't one. 23:40:44 what does java have to do with anything? 23:40:46 stassats: high5 23:40:48 drewc: re. functional interface - are you serious? 23:41:05 and why do people keep bringing it up? 23:41:35 *prxq* really wonders what java has to do with *anything* 23:41:37 drewc: "but a __language-with-no-macros-here__ ain't one." 23:41:40 anything at all 23:41:41 I also like to have a layering like the one described in AMOP.. syntax/procedural 23:41:42 actually, this is to make emacs happy, not me, because this is swank module in scheme 23:41:47 prxq: yes, my macros all expand to a long-handed 'functional' (as opposed to syntactic) abstraction 23:42:03 but sometimes it makes it much more complicated 23:42:42 drewc: I don't see what the problem is with macros being very thin syntactic abstractions over functional abstractions. 23:42:46 sykopomp: there is the perfectly valid argument that for many of uses of macros in CL, a lighter syntax for lambda and a nice function would have done just as well 23:42:53 I interpreted what you said as "macros should not be used at all" 23:42:56 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 23:43:05 sykopomp: there is no problem with that... where did i say any of this stuff? 23:43:25 drewc: you said macros were evil. I interpreted that as meaning "screw macros altogether" 23:43:54 sykopomp: don't assume meaning from things i don't say, we'll never be able to have a decent coversation if you're talking with yourself :P 23:44:04 *stassats* interprets that as "keep them at minimum" 23:44:20 sykopomp: look around... do you know who i am and where we are? :P 23:44:42 drewc: you're the juggernaut, bitch? 23:44:44 >_> 23:44:55 :D 23:45:22 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:16 should there be a with-open-file macro? yes. Should it expand to FUNCALL-WITH-OPEN-FILE? yes. Should one prefer the latter over the former? _that_ is just a taste issue. 23:46:32 and a case-by-case one at that. 23:46:43 drewc: I especially liked how they kept a firm line between names and the referred-to objects.. removes a lot of adhoc messing around 23:46:58 (and lets you have anonymous objects :) 23:47:09 is HCL the official name for hu.dwim's CL? 23:47:15 Heh. 23:47:24 *sykopomp* giggles. 23:47:28 drewc: I usually call the function CALL-WITH-XXX :) 23:47:31 is anyone here using the osicat library? 23:47:40 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:47:41 drewc: Did you get that pattern from CLIM's CALL-WITH-foo thing for -all- of its WITH-foo macros? 23:47:44 Fare: Handball Club Leipzig 23:47:49 adeht: i save call-with for when i pass a value to the thunk 23:48:00 nyef: no, i am CLIM ignorant 23:48:10 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 23:48:29 i got that pattern from the thousands of times i've needed to pass a variable to a macro that doesn't evaluate arguments 23:49:09 Heh. 23:49:10 ALL DEFINE-FOO's had better have an ensure-foo somewhere behind them too! 23:49:30 saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:54 Clearly, I'm going to have to see about figuring out some sort of "nyeflisp" over the coming year. 23:50:04 adeht: i save CALL-WITH for when the function takes a value 23:50:08 tau [~tau@189.127.58.45] has joined #lisp 23:50:12 if you're not doing that the problem is that you're dealing with both syntax and _complicated_ semantics.. which results in hairy macros for no good reason 23:50:13 -!- tau [~tau@189.127.58.45] has left #lisp 23:50:18 (like with-open-file actually) 23:51:18 (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k) ..) vs (funcall-with-context context (lambda () )) 23:51:29 So, the other part to this is that the call-with function can be inlined, can have a compiler-macro defined, or, if you're on a system that allows it, can have an arbitrary transform defined in the compiler. 23:51:49 it can also be redefined and traced.. 23:51:53 So you're not even really gaining anything over using a straight-up macro. 23:51:59 Err... losing. 23:52:07 Not even losing anything over the straight-up macro. 23:52:13 (define  #f) (define  #t) 23:52:21 nyef: no, it's a net win 23:53:16 nyef: sometimes you lose by inlining/compiler-macro 23:53:17 there is way too much focus on macros in lisp texts and material... this is because we're one of the only languages that have them, of course, but 'here's how to make proper semantic abstractions' is a guide that's missing 23:53:22 nyef: I just said why :) 23:53:35 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:05 drewc: earlier I referred to AMOP.. 23:54:15 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:54:17 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:25 adeht: you've read kiczales work on meta-compiler protocols? 23:54:28 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:54:36 drewc: not yet 23:54:49 drewc: link pls, that sounds fascinating. 23:54:59 *nyef* tries to remember if he's read kiczales on metacompiler stuff... 23:55:11 leo2007: the trunk of ccl does not require the 10.4 SDK when building for Mac OS X. The 1.4 release branch does. So on Snow Leopard, the default install of Xcode should work fine to build the trunk. 23:55:17 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:55:25 well, just like use of the mop elimitates the need for DEFCLASS-like macros because you can just use DEFCLASS, the compiler mop removes the need for DEFMACRO like operators :P 23:56:01 http://www2.parc.com/csl/groups/sda/publications/papers/Kiczales-MOPs-for-Lisp/for-web.pdf 23:56:17 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.146.76] has left #lisp 23:56:46 drewc: sometimes it's nice to have a thin veneer over defclass 23:56:55 adeht: that does what? 23:57:06 drewc: subclasses from some class, or uses some metaclass 23:57:11 I wish the CCL IDE would work on other platforms 23:57:20 rme: that's excellent news. thanks. 23:57:24 adeht: use metaclass, yes... subclass another class... no 23:57:34 adeht: the latter should be done at the mop leve 23:57:36 level 23:57:41 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:57:53 especially because it's very had to get right as a syntactic abstraction 23:58:42 adeht: a very thin layer that just adds the metaclass? fine, but what if you want to subclass your metaclass... another macro? 23:58:59 drewc: yeah 23:59:01 and all that i just said about macros... did you see the demo FTW code i posted? 23:59:05 i use macros a lot 23:59:11 macros that define macros even! 23:59:18 drewc: sometimes you want to talk about things closer to your domain 23:59:34 adeht: that is a good reason for a macro 23:59:50 and is the crux of why i think DEF and BIND are bad