00:00:36 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:12 oh my god, lispworks lisp is so insanely expensive 00:01:28 depends on your budget 00:01:50 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:02:12 *drewc* thinks lispworks is a pretty good deal if you need what it offers 00:03:01 and if you're just a hobbyist, they offer a free version... which is not expensive at all. 00:03:06 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:03:08 *nyef* checks his budget... Funny, it's all allocated towards books, food, and the occasional bit of hardware, with the minor possibility of buying a 64-bit windows license. 00:03:42 *drewc* has budgeted for a new guitar 00:03:54 the one i want makes lispworks look cheap 00:04:02 the one i'm going to get, otoh 00:04:07 Scieneer ? 00:04:22 is about the same price range. 00:04:24 *p_l* for some reason ended with having a 2k8r2 server license for free. It's his only personally-owned non-oem windows license o_O 00:04:29 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:04:47 genera still 5k? 00:04:54 p_l: A non-edu one? Someone just gave it to you? 00:05:17 antoszka: edu one, except instead of MSDNAA I got it straight from MS 00:05:37 uhm 00:05:46 lucky b'tard :) 00:05:50 well, a slightly modified edu - basically, it's "don't use it for commercial purposes" and the rest is normal :D 00:06:02 antoszka: you might be eligible as well ;D 00:06:03 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:18 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:06:18 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:07:07 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 00:08:13 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-91697.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:09:03 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 00:09:33 Oh, I might be getting a PPC G5 next weekend. 00:09:37 p_l: "don't use it for commercial purposes?" So basically, don't own it while you have a job? 00:09:52 Ralith: no, don't use it to run business/develop commercial software 00:10:32 What about using it to develop open source software? 00:10:36 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:10:45 and selling it? 00:10:46 (What about using it to develop open source software -for money-?) 00:11:05 pastorn [~alexander@aoeu.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 00:11:05 what about using it to develop open source software *someone else* sells? 00:11:19 i'm looking for the eval/apply picture with the two hands holding each other 00:11:21 nyef: well, in theory, you can develop open source on it, as long as it isn't directly used for commercial purpose 00:11:29 google images gives me no luck 00:11:31 Ralith: so selling by third party is possible 00:11:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:11:54 What about a third party selling the software and giving you a "kickback"? 00:12:07 nyef: murky area 00:12:12 p_l: even if the third party is the actual project, and you're submitting patches? 00:12:14 I suspect it depends on local laws 00:12:38 anyway, it fills my purposes nicely 00:12:48 does anyone know what picture i'm talking about? 00:13:15 proun [~proun@c-75-75-22-172.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:55 is PAIP a book worth having on your desk as a reference? 00:14:09 it's not a reference book 00:14:55 it _is_ worth having mind you. 00:15:00 proun: not as reference. As an actual textbook to learn various useful things (not only for Lisp), yes 00:15:02 Mine's on the way. 00:15:05 just in your personal perference, would you get it in dead tree form? 00:15:12 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:15:28 *p_l* keeps university's only "on shelf" copy for himself 00:15:48 i got my copy at the MIT coop :) 00:16:12 stassats: the introduction suggests it be used as such. 00:16:15 I'm kinda disappointed that no-one tried to recall mine. I suspect I'm one of the few lispers around -_- 00:16:33 pr_ [~pr@109.74.204.63] has joined #lisp 00:16:36 -!- pr_ [~pr@109.74.204.63] has quit [Client Quit] 00:16:47 (on the uni, I mean) 00:17:22 so all and all, worth owning? by that i mean i can go back to it again and again? 00:17:26 -!- pastorn [~alexander@aoeu.csbnet.se] has left #lisp 00:17:31 proun: I'd say so 00:18:07 thanks 00:18:55 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-12-99.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:19:51 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:19 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:02 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:16 Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-224-23.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:28:30 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:08 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 00:29:52 -!- Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-224-23.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Client Quit] 00:31:48 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-235-66.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:32:13 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-224-23.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:34:50 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:36:25 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:38:48 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:39:49 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:28 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177146155.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:17 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:46:20 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:47:40 -!- proun [~proun@c-75-75-22-172.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:48:59 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 00:49:03 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 00:50:02 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:51:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:20 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:55:04 QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:55:54 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03:05 ikki [~ikki@189.247.8.171] has joined #lisp 01:03:13 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:03:40 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:16 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:08:31 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:09:37 ... Is there a maximum length for defined constants in C? 01:10:14 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:10:29 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 01:10:49 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:54 nyef: for their names? 01:10:57 Yeah. 01:11:02 Zhivago would probably know 01:11:30 -!- rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:11:38 I think the longest I have here is about 35 characters. 01:11:51 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:12:23 And, while I'm clearly going to have trouble with the ones that try to have an *, a <, or a > in their names, I'd like to know I'm not going to run into trouble about simple length. 01:13:05 nyef: There used to be absurdly short limits, such as externals needed be unique in the first 7? characters. Any modern compiler should be able to handle very long macro names. 01:13:06 why would #\* be a problem in a name? 01:13:16 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-224-23.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: good night people!] 01:13:24 nyef: sorry, I read CL, not C 01:13:39 nowhere_man: Yeah, I'm generating C #defines from a lisp program. 01:13:46 -!- milanj [~milan@91.150.120.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:14:12 reb: macros are handled by the preprocessor. 01:14:18 shouldn't get to the compiler at all. 01:14:32 I'm also finding that there are two separate extern definitions for call_into_lisp, in separate .c files. 01:15:28 Ralith: I was interpreting "defined constants" to mean preprocessor macro constants. 01:15:54 reb: the concept of "external" doesn't apply to preprocessor symbols. 01:16:10 nor does the modernnes of the compiler have much bearing. 01:16:16 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:23 By the way, there's no demand for a separate preprocessor. It can be and often is built in to the compiler. 01:16:25 nyef: for those very reasons I don't actually think that *<>etc are likely to be an issue. 01:16:33 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:17 Ralith: I am aware of that. I was using it merely as an example of outdated limits that no compiler observes today, save perhaps embedded ones. 01:17:33 Ralith: My reason for *, < and > not being an issue is simpler: I don't actually need to refer to them from C code, they just got caught in the conversion process. 01:17:36 what's the point of writing compiler macros for macros? 01:17:54 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:17:56 reb: 'kay 01:17:59 Adlai: Compiler macros for normal macros? Very little, I'd imagine. 01:18:03 nyef: C++98 suggests a minimum limit of 1024 for "initial characters" in an identifier 01:18:14 adeht: damn O.o 01:18:22 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:18:30 I guess that's a case of "Find the largest sane limit, and raise it an order of magnitude." 01:19:38 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:37 nyef: Will go outside 255 bytes + null? 01:21:14 nyef, I wonder why it's allowed by the spec. 01:21:16 lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 01:21:24 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has left #lisp 01:21:26 p_l: I'd be surprised if the identifiers break 50 characters, and completely shocked if they break 80. 01:21:41 nyef: same with C++03.. C99 imposes a minimum of 63 characters limit for internal identifiers and 31 for external identifiers (but watch out for "universal character names") 01:22:44 *nyef* tries to remember how to do a cast to a function pointer without involving a typedef. 01:23:19 nyef: just involve typedef. 01:23:21 for sanity's sake. 01:23:30 think of the readers. 01:24:00 *nyef* just didn't want to burn the extra identifier, but an _t suffix is unlikely to collide. 01:24:34 #define call_into_lisp ((call_into_lisp_t)ASMRTN_CALL_INTO_LISP), here we come! 01:24:54 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:15 nyef: what are you doing in C, anyway? 01:25:26 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:25:27 Moving some assembly around, actually. 01:26:37 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:13 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-241-39.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:31:15 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 01:31:59 Uh-oh... How on earth am I supposed to convert GNAME(current_thread)@TPOFF(%rax) to something I can use? 01:32:56 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:29 I was using function pointers there recently, what an awful form 01:37:24 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 01:38:08 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:38:13 kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 01:38:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:39:06 -!- mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-eygoscrquwissueg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:39:27 mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-qoxqkhcrbuwfjsmi] has joined #lisp 01:40:17 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 01:41:37 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.165.124] has joined #lisp 01:41:44 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.165.124] has left #lisp 01:42:13 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.165.124] has joined #lisp 01:43:15 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:45:29 -!- Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:45:46 nyef: is the platform constrained in any way or does it have to be very portable? 01:46:03 I'm not sure at this point. 01:46:32 I'm targetting gcc at this point, with the exepctation that someone will want to re-target to MSVC. 01:46:58 on ELF platforms, most compilers will give you *very* long identifiers, at least in C, since they usually just output the symbol literally, and C++ kinda forces the linkers to support symbol names that are way longer than 100 characters 01:48:11 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 01:48:28 djinni` [~djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:09 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 01:52:51 -!- LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 01:53:05 hm, why are symbol macros replacement templates, rather than expanders like normal macros? 01:53:25 erm... what would be involved in "expanding" them? 01:53:47 same thing that would be involved in expanding a macro, except that this expansion function would have zero arguments 01:53:59 . . . 01:54:11 -!- stazich [~stas@83-47-112.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has quit [] 01:54:36 Adlai: You're... looking to conditionalize the expansion of a symbol-macro on some piece of dynamic state? 01:56:38 nyef, no, I'm wondering whether it's possible to generate the expansion of a symbol macro, rather than have to write it all out. This is just out of curiosity though. 01:57:22 yes, it's possible 01:57:36 how would anything NOT be possible? this is lisp, man! 01:57:44 I guess you could wrap the definition of the symbol macro with a macrolet that did the code generation. 01:58:02 or maybe expand to the macrolet? dunno. I'll cross this bridge _if_ I even reach it :) 01:58:09 *ever 01:58:15 or expand to a macro 01:58:24 or expand to a macro invocation, rather 01:58:47 right, I guess (define-symbol-macro foo (macrolet ((generate-expansion () ..)) (generate-expansion))) 01:59:10 eh 01:59:12 I usually wrap them the other way around, TBH. 01:59:27 But then, I usually use -local- symbol-macros. 01:59:27 what do you mean, nyef ? 02:00:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 02:00:11 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:00:27 I have a symbol-macro that expands into an accessor form, and have the accessor defined -around- the symbol-macrolet, but it doesn't actually matter which way it happens. 02:00:33 tankrim [~qsvans@c-9afae255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:00:52 Another cute thing you can do is have a macro that expands to a define-symbol-macro. 02:02:22 formulate has a macro that expands to define-symbol-macro 02:02:28 for implementing variables that are formulas 02:02:34 -!- mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-qoxqkhcrbuwfjsmi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:02:51 Okay, time to see if this maniac idea passes its smoke test. 02:04:41 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 02:05:05 tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has joined #lisp 02:05:11 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:05:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.8.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:07:56 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:08:47 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:10 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 02:11:12 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:11:38 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 02:13:18 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 02:15:59 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 02:17:39 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:49 -!- madsy [~madsy@ti0207a340-1056.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 02:18:49 madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 02:20:05 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:22:33 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:15 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 02:26:35 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:28:04 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:29:54 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:32:11 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:32:36 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:33:49 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 02:37:33 -!- tankrim [~qsvans@c-9afae255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:40:53 smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:45:35 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:45:57 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:03 qrush [~qrush@129.21.82.176] has joined #lisp 02:53:21 hi there, trying to run something with sbcl, i've got it loaded up, and it has a defun run in it... 02:53:27 how the heck do i call that? 02:53:36 (run) doesn't work 02:54:05 i linked the .asd, ran (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :myprog) 02:54:15 and it definitely compiles 02:54:22 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 02:55:39 I would suggest that the problem is most likely something to do with the package system. Have a look for a DEFPACKAGE form in the source and try (package-name:run). 02:55:59 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:04 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:56:20 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Quit: blackened`] 02:56:20 Oh, -joy-. all_threads is hit from lisp -before- toplevel form processing. 02:56:41 How do I make this not suck? 02:56:55 nyef: yeah, it's got a cl:defpackage in it 02:57:04 exports #:run 02:57:08 How do i call that? 02:57:17 What's the package name? 02:57:26 First parameter to the defpackage. 02:57:31 (cl:defpackage :mcpixel 02:57:40 Okay, try (mcpixel:run). 02:58:05 debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR: No CLIM-SYS:MAKE-PROCESS here. 02:58:25 i've got CLIM working with asdf 02:58:58 And now you're beyond where I can really help you, I'm afraid. 02:59:15 this whole CLIM thing is really, really frustratingly complex. 02:59:43 nyef: well, i'm just trying to run the program...i definitely have it compiled 03:00:41 ... Actually, one thing comes to mind. Are you running on a threaded SBCL or one without thread support? 03:00:50 I have no idea, whatever macports installed. 03:00:51 (Look for :sb-thread in *features*.) 03:01:01 why does that even matter? 03:01:05 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:01:15 qrush: can't make a new thread if your implementation doesn't support threads. 03:01:16 Because CLIM-SYS:MAKE-PROCESS is a function to create a new thread. 03:02:06 pkhuong: Hey, any ideas on how to resolve an assembly-routine address in Lisp code prior to toplevel-form processing in cold-init? 03:02:13 Yeah, fuck this. way too complicated. 03:02:37 Thanks for the help, just not worth it though :) 03:02:38 -!- qrush [~qrush@129.21.82.176] has left #lisp 03:02:39 nyef: can't you do that while building th ecold core? 03:02:40 McCLIM loses again... and vendor packaging doesn't win either. 03:03:05 From outside the compiler? 03:03:25 I think I may need a parallel to foreign-symbol-dataref-sap or something. 03:04:01 Yeah, outside the compiler. When you build the cold core you know where the routines have wound up. 03:04:15 Sure, but how do I persuade the compiler to dump a fixup in the first place? 03:04:21 nyef: it's probably a matter of "port install sbcl+thread", actually. 03:04:23 oh. Right. 03:05:06 I have hope that this may be the last hurdle before my initial proof-of-concept for this entire demented idea works. 03:06:29 nyef: what is your demented idea; if it can be summed up quickly 03:07:00 "no-x86oid-assem.S" 03:07:23 -!- ceineke_ [~chris@24.235.36.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:07:37 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:08:32 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:08:50 nyef: you could insert another kludge like KLUDGE-NONDETERMINISTIC-CATCH-BLOCK-SIZE. 03:08:58 Umm... no. 03:09:09 I'm going with a define-vop (assembly-routine-sap). 03:09:57 is x86oid some SBCL term then, SBCL is mentioned alot after a google 03:10:38 x86oid is both x86 and x86-64. 03:10:39 lukego [~lukegorri@119.110.101.218] has joined #lisp 03:10:48 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@119.110.101.218] has quit [Client Quit] 03:10:49 I don't know who if anyone uses that outside sbcl hackers, but the meaning should be clear enough. 03:10:55 Same for fixoid ;) 03:11:40 classoid? 03:13:24 *nyef* kicks off a build, "This time for sure!" 03:13:55 there's mentions of classoid in postgre. 03:14:38 and factor, but that doesn't really count. 03:15:30 arkanoid? 03:16:21 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 03:16:59 I believe patatoid (potatoid) is a technical astronomical term in french. 03:17:56 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 03:18:16 meaning elliptical? 03:18:45 or an irregular asteroid? 03:19:25 Something between a round box and an ellipsoid, I think? 03:22:30 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:24 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:24:36 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.165.124] has left #lisp 03:25:51 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:26:53 ceineke_ [~chris@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 03:28:42 -!- HET2 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30:33 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-204-191.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:32:23 Good morning! 03:33:44 Hello beach. 03:37:01 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:37:18 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 03:38:45 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-171-8.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 03:41:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:42:00 I have a Hunchentoot handler which returns a representation of a resource, and that resource has a timestamp, but I believe I should also have a timestamp for the state of the representation for the purposes of a last-modified HTTP header. How would you handle that? 03:43:09 Currently, I have a special variable that holds the timestamp and I reset that to (get-universal-time) whenever I modify the function, but I wish that was automated. 03:43:17 what else does the state depend on? 03:43:27 so automate it! 03:43:39 write a function that updates both at once 03:43:50 or a macro might feel nicer 03:44:41 The handler function defines the representation, so that's the only other state other than the data itself. 03:44:50 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:46:01 I considered a macro that set the timestamp when the function is evaluated, but that seemed suspect. 03:46:15 austinh: why would that be suspect? 03:46:57 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:47:05 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:48:14 pkhuong: I read in On Lisp that you cannot know how many times a macro will be expanded. I might be misunderstanding that. 03:48:46 why would you set the timestamp when it's expanded? 03:48:51 What you do is expand to a progn that contains an eval-when that will set the timestamp when the function definition takes effect. 03:48:54 and you know exactly how many times it's expanded 03:49:02 if you compile it, it won't be expanded for that call ever again 03:49:10 it's the ONE thing that you DO know in CL 03:49:21 Umm... 03:49:39 That's iffy at best. 03:49:52 you have no idea what ELSE compilation does, but it is required to expand and store expansions of macros 03:49:55 nyef: minimal compilation includes macroexpansion. 03:50:32 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:50:58 Ok, thanks. That helps a lot. I'll try it out. 03:52:05 Hrm... "/leaving !FIX-EARLY-GENERIC-FUNCTIONS"... 03:52:33 Then a pile of noise, then a memory fault. 03:53:20 On the other hand, it does give me a cold repl. 03:57:35 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:04:37 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:49 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-89-130.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:04:50 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:06:35 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 04:08:24 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:53 -!- kermit [~zip55413@pdpc/supporter/bronze/kermit] has left #lisp 04:10:33 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:02 tranciful [~tranciful@pool-173-71-23-194.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:10 test 04:11:17 test failed. 04:11:23 tranciful: didn't work at all 04:11:31 -!- tranciful [~tranciful@pool-173-71-23-194.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:12:08 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:12:56 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student164-141.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:16:18 back to the drawing board for him, I guess 04:16:41 -!- qwertycute [~j@137.186.34.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:18:29 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:20:20 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/session] has joined #lisp 04:20:21 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/session] has quit [Changing host] 04:20:21 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-whblvupogopdjegs] has joined #lisp 04:20:48 qwertycute [~j@137.186.34.139] has joined #lisp 04:21:47 Because I figure someone might be interested, here's my hack-of-the-day: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/no-x86oid-assem.S 04:22:38 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:24:28 *p_l* just got a rather wicked idea for calls from C to lisp 04:24:51 I suspect it's because I haven't been sleeping well 04:25:41 that, and showing a friend of mine that dynamic linking on Linux is done by userspace program ^^; 04:25:49 benny` [~benny@i577A8953.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:26:10 -!- benny [~benny@i577A82EE.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:26:12 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:26:50 As if it's not done by userspace program anywhere else... 04:27:02 why would it be done in kernel space ever? 04:27:41 l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 04:27:57 rahul: For "speed". It might be plausibly possible to fixup direct references from a page-fault handler. 04:28:43 -!- ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:06 Anyway, it's getting lateish, so I'm going to head to bed. 04:29:08 G'night all. 04:29:26 a page-fault handler can be in userspace, tho :) 04:29:29 night 04:30:55 nyef: I think win32 did it in kernel 04:32:32 also, people tend not to believe me when I tell them about /lib/ld.so 04:32:57 reminds me kinda of the dynamic linker in ITS :) 04:33:06 win32 is screwed up in more ways than just that 04:33:14 -!- benny` is now known as benny 04:33:26 -!- davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:49 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:09 There is a good book "Linkers and Loaders" by John Levine. 04:34:11 -!- l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:34:37 still, it's funny how the oldest dynamic linker that I used, that acted like /lib/ld.so was actually from '60s~'70s 04:35:05 p_l: I find dynamic linking on Unix/Linux to be a huge kludge. 04:35:47 beach: where it isn't? 04:35:54 p_l: Multics 04:36:28 heh. I guess it fits, didn't it use memory pages as main abstraction? 04:36:58 p_l: No, "segments" which were essentially fixed-size arrays of bytes. 04:37:21 p_l: Addresses had two components 04:37:35 p_l: that's why I call that technique 60's linker technology 04:37:44 ah, this way. I just recall some info about how an equivalent of mmap() was a fundamental operation in Multics 04:37:52 p_l: The dynamic linker translated a symbolic segment name to a per-process segment number. 04:38:02 ah 04:38:19 p_l: Unix hasn't really caught up with 60s technology yet. But perhaps one day it will. 04:38:31 That's the C memory model :) 04:38:53 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:41:04 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 04:41:20 What I find interesting is that people still think that things like access to global variables and external function calls in C are as fast as they used to be. Lisp should come out looking pretty good in comparison. 04:42:10 Well. C's external linkage corresponds pretty directly with CL's packaged symbols. 04:42:44 beach: nah, the real fun IMHO comes when you look at the external linkage in C++, especially in template filled program 04:43:13 p_l: Oh, that should be fun. I haven't looked into that. 04:43:19 You'd expect the same amount of indirection in both cases, given dynamic linkage in C. 04:43:54 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:44:35 beach: let's say, the linker can seriously spend more time linking the app than the actual application will run 04:45:24 I have seen somewhere some numbers regarding example amount of string comparisons/searches performed when loading a big C++ project... it was ... astounding 04:45:33 (in order to link the symbols) 04:47:28 (with >160 char symbols being common) 04:47:40 and people say lisp has slow startup times 04:49:37 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:49:49 rahul: I heard that KDE people were overjoyed when GCC got visibility attributes on symbols 04:51:15 Why are you thinking that CL does a better job here? :) 04:51:27 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-202-230.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:38 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 04:53:47 After all CL needs to intern every symbol in every file it loads. 04:53:58 Well, apart from those without packages. 04:54:34 Zhivago: C++ templates generate symbols that must be interned 04:54:51 And CL macros don't? 04:55:09 not as often. 04:55:27 macros rarely generate symbols 04:55:32 at least good ones don't :) 04:55:33 -!- lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-229-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:55:39 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:55:45 interned ones at least 04:57:36 however, LOAD must resolve all the symbols it uses 04:57:39 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:57:51 Adlai [~adlai@89-139-47-149.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 04:57:51 -!- Adlai [~adlai@89-139-47-149.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Changing host] 04:57:51 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:58:18 rahul: but since the compilation model doesn't rely on generating interned symbols as much... 04:58:48 pkhuong: it's not about that. it's about loading. 04:58:52 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:59:18 rahul: the symbols that code refers depends on the way code gets compiled. 04:59:21 every symbol that is given a definition, every global variable that's referenced, every function that's called, needs to be looked up in the package 04:59:47 Sure. But, again, since the model doesn't depend as much on global symbols, it's not as bad of an issue. 05:00:15 well. C++ doesn't either, if anyone would write it using what's available 05:00:30 As well as every symbol that isn't a definition -- just everything that is interned. 05:00:42 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 05:00:50 Zhivago: not local variables 05:01:03 (for one, at least) 05:01:06 rahul: all the static resolution in C++ compiles down to a global name lookup. 05:01:19 That puts a lot more pressure on the symbol table. 05:01:21 pkhuong: not if it's not a global name 05:01:57 rahul: you mean local to a method or function. 05:02:07 no 05:02:14 local to a namespace 05:02:24 Don't those get flattened via mangling? 05:02:29 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-252.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:02:35 rahul: namespaces are flattened into global names via mangling. 05:02:54 good god 05:03:00 *rahul* facepalm 05:03:03 what fools 05:03:09 I can poke through namespaces pretty much arbitrarily. Classes and structs define namespaces too. 05:03:14 What error have we made? 05:03:32 assuming that the designers of C++ took advantage of the good things they did 05:03:34 heh 05:03:41 oh wait, another error 05:03:48 remove the plural on "things" 05:05:15 Weren't we talking about unix linkers here? 05:05:16 rahul: there's no way around that if you want to follow C's model of separate compilation with one compilation unit per file. 05:05:44 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:05:53 So yes, C++ puts a lot of pressure on symbol table lookups. 05:06:10 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:06:37 pkhuong: I'm not sure if that's the cause... I think it's the model of the linker that only has a single namespace 05:09:16 the names could keep their namespaces as-is in the object file 05:09:16 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:10:46 Well, you could certainly use a different linkage model, but that would be a different discussion. 05:13:05 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 05:13:06 you could keep the namespace separate, too 05:13:13 well, using a separator character 05:13:25 and the lookup could be done as a special-case optimization in the linker 05:14:18 it would recognize that the file is in such a format and lookup the namespace first 05:15:05 this resolution could even be optimized such that the namespace references are cached for the duration of the linking operation 05:15:45 austinh pasted "defun w/ timestamp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94237 05:16:07 and the lookup doesn't need to scan the whole string. it can look at the first couple chars and then restrict the search to a smaller set of namespaces 05:16:18 I'm still fumbling with evaluation order. 05:17:26 austinh: you don't want to reference the dynamic variable in the function body 05:17:44 you probably want to bind a lexically scoped variable 05:18:03 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:47 so yeah, get rid of the earmuffs 05:19:14 might want to use some other character to keep it from clashing with variables your function might want to use itself 05:19:17 I thought it would be bad form to have a variable that seems to magically appear within the function. 05:19:29 but that's the whole point of this :) 05:19:35 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:37 magically, a timestamp appears 05:20:01 of course, only when you incant the correct spell 05:20:18 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:20:26 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 05:20:30 and so it's no longer magic, just sufficiently advanced technology :) 05:20:36 I was thinking more like the *request* special variable in Hunchentoot. It obviously exists, but it's always bound to the current request. 05:21:04 austinh: which changes every time the function is called 05:21:04 I mean, this works fine for my purposes, but I felt I was getting warning signs that this may not be the best approach. 05:21:23 you want something that's NOT changed every time the funciton is called 05:21:33 Right, but in Hunchentoot, *request* is a special variable that is explicitly exported. 05:21:59 and you can explicitly export timestamp 05:22:17 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:22:19 I did not consider that. 05:23:00 So you would suggest dropping the earmuffs and exporting the symbol? 05:24:25 cadabra [~cadabra@c-174-52-81-75.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:43 pjb [~t@95.124.57.165] has joined #lisp 05:27:26 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:28:16 or maybe adding a different kind of earmuff 05:28:18 shrug 05:28:29 or making it a lambda-list keyword, like &environment 05:29:13 you could even shadow defun with that, I guess 05:29:23 but it'd be more complicated to implement 05:29:53 (defun foo (x y &key f g ×tamp time) 05:30:04 that's the approach i use 05:30:14 Ok, I'll look into that. 05:30:32 it means parsing lambda lists though, which is a bit of a pain 05:30:44 maybe you can steal drewc's code if you don't want to go through that exercise :) 05:31:35 Ok, I'll make a note to look into that someday. 05:34:03 austinh annotated #94237 "working version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94237#1 05:35:38 So far, anything dealing with eval-when is my biggest stumbling block in Lisp. 05:36:18 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 05:39:28 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 05:39:41 you can get rid of the eval-when on that 05:40:03 it's completely unnecessary 05:40:23 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:40:28 only the last evaluation of the form will be kept and run 05:40:33 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:49 it's useful for when you want to have things available while your code is being compiled 05:41:06 while following code in the file is being compiled 05:41:26 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 05:41:56 carp, ok. I'm still confused about this section in "On Lisp" 05:43:11 rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:33 I'll have to read through the hyperspec more carefully. 05:43:52 das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:04 I'm done for the night. Thanks rahul. If you have anything else to add, I'll certainly see it tomorrow. 05:47:26 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:48:29 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-14-132.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:49:24 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-89-130.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:55:44 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 05:56:50 -!- a-s [~user@93.112.117.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57:06 -!- nareshov` [~nareshov@203.92.53.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:57:13 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:04 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:00:25 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 06:04:52 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:08:24 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit 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[~nartamono@95-26-61-67.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:16:43 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 08:16:59 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:20:36 -!- nareshov [~nareshov@unaffiliated/nareshov] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:21:42 -!- Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22:08 Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:40 I wonder if reading Chapter 11 of "Common Lisp the Language, 2nd Edition" on the package system is useful 08:23:54 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23:56 it doesn't seem to cover ASDF 08:24:24 and it talks about modules which, I understand, no longer exist 08:24:42 You may be confusing a couple of things. 08:25:03 There are three concepts: packages, modules and systems. 08:25:44 Zhivago: modules do exist still? I read from that book that they were remove in 1989 08:25:52 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:25:53 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:11 A module is something that you can 'require' in a non-standard fashion. 08:26:18 They're part of CL -- see require and provide. 08:26:33 hmm, OK 08:27:23 A system is essentially a whole program or library. 08:27:38 A package is a namespace for symbols. 08:27:50 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:28:07 These don't fit too well with ideas in other languages. 08:28:08 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:41 Personally I see packages as addressing the problem of 'separate authorship'. 08:28:41 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:28:42 what's the point in differentiating systems and modules? 08:29:09 A module is a resource for loading. A system is a description of how to build resources. 08:29:20 So you might think of a system as being like a makefile. 08:29:39 oh, OK, so once a system is installed, I only have to think in terms of modules and packages 08:29:42 ? 08:30:13 Building a system will produce things you can load/require. 08:30:34 Packages are more about linkage. 08:30:46 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 08:31:05 Packages allow you to differentiate between my:foo and your:foo 08:31:06 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:31:13 splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/session] has joined #lisp 08:31:13 -!- splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/session] has quit [Changing host] 08:31:13 splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-hfstojacjslqsech] has joined #lisp 08:31:27 morning 08:31:35 And to pick which of those to use as current:foo, for example. 08:32:54 sbcl has a special variable holding SBCL_HOME... but i can't seem to find it... :/ anyone with some hints? 08:32:57 Actually, those are deprecated in ansi CL :) 08:33:05 Still, pretty much everything supports them. 08:33:12 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 08:34:18 i wish fare was not asleep... he knows it 08:34:34 ahhhh! sb-ext:*core-pathname* and sb-ext:*runtime-pathname* 08:35:17 Not sbcl-homedir-pathname? 08:35:31 Ah, no. 08:35:36 Zhivago, that's just a mere getenv 08:35:45 -!- rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:35:55 Foofie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:36:50 -!- Foofie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:37:17 rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:46 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:38:00 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-10-30.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:38:10 -!- rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 08:38:18 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:38:35 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 08:38:42 cmm [~cmm@109.64.10.30] has joined #lisp 08:38:56 -!- Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:39:59 RaceCondition, read http://weitz.de/packages.html 08:41:23 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:43:01 minion, packages? 08:43:01 packages: http://weitz.de/packages.html http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html http://flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 08:45:02 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:46:01 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:47:04 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:47:51 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 08:52:08 -!- ichernetsky [~ivan@195.222.64.166] has quit [Quit: 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[~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:57 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:06:06 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:06:18 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:06:54 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:57 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:07:43 fiveop [~fiveop@g229099056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:07:50 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:08:05 nostoi [~nostoi@89.Red-81-44-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:25 morning mvilleneuve 09:08:39 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:09:25 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:10:36 Good morning! 09:12:41 good morning spiaggia, tcr, and mvilleneuve 09:13:31 Oddity [~Oddity@66.183.67.202] has joined #lisp 09:18:50 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:27 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 09:23:30 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 09:23:53 rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:09 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 09:27:03 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:27:12 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Client Quit] 09:28:28 ebzzry [~ebzzry@124.217.95.106] has joined #lisp 09:29:56 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:30:39 -!- RaceCond1tion [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:31:01 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:31:09 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:32:31 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:10 kenjin2202 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 09:33:15 ClaudiaS [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 09:33:28 Mornin' 09:33:33 hello ClaudiaS 09:35:14 ClaudiaS: I don't recognize your nick. Are you new here? 09:38:59 Fufie [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:39:47 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 09:41:44 antoszka [~antoszka@lemongrass.antoszka.pl] has joined #lisp 09:41:45 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@lemongrass.antoszka.pl] has quit [Changing host] 09:41:45 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:42:00 Well... no. I just had to register 09:42:18 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:42:25 i usually appear as Claudia 09:42:29 Recent problems with automated attacks. 09:42:37 yeah 09:42:42 I figured 09:42:45 ... 09:43:12 <_deepfire> So, a Multics-alike implemented in CL is "our" definition of bliss? 09:43:29 :-) 09:44:33 _deepfire: I think we can do better than Multics. 09:45:19 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 09:45:19 _deepfire: Multics was essentially a PL/1 machine with many the restrictions that come with PL/1. A Lisp machine would be much better. 09:45:42 Why all of this ancestor worship? :) 09:46:07 ichernetsky [~ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:46:14 Hi! If f=append, why is (f x1 (f x2 (f x3 xn)))) faster than (f (f (f x1 x2) x3) xn)? 09:46:14 <_deepfire> spiaggia, by "machine" do you mean a hardware machine? I ask because we can't assume control over modern CPU architectures.. 09:46:23 One of the worst things that I could think of these days is a hardware lisp machine. 09:46:41 _deepfire: No, that won't be necessary anymore. Software will do just fine. 09:46:57 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 09:47:12 -!- ichernetsky [~ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Client Quit] 09:47:20 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:22 <_deepfire> spiaggia, so a JVM/CLR-alike, but especially designed for CL? 09:47:28 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:47:28 ebzzry: Homework? 09:47:40 spiaggia: Nope. 09:47:55 spiaggia: Work. 09:48:09 <_deepfire> ebzzry, the idea is that APPEND has to re-cons every list except the last 09:48:09 _deepfire: I wasn't thinking of that at all. Native code will work as well. It is more a question about an API. 09:48:30 _deepfire: OK 09:48:48 deep: Why not use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalvik_virtual_machine ? 09:49:01 Omg. Thanks! 09:49:29 antoszka [~antoszka@lemongrass.antoszka.pl] has joined #lisp 09:49:29 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@lemongrass.antoszka.pl] has quit [Changing host] 09:49:29 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:49:34 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:44 -!- Athas` [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:55 Zhivago: I could never understand why you seem to like java(script) 09:52:03 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:52:26 Quadrescence: wha't s this java(script) thing? it does not exist, you know? 09:52:29 I don't like Java. 09:52:47 I don't see what DVM has to do with it. 09:52:51 there's a difference between Java and JVM 09:53:19 jdz: The parentheses were there to indicate a pattern similar to regex's `?' 09:53:29 <_deepfire> jdz, there's that "JavaScript: The World's Most Misunderstood Programming Language"rticle 09:53:30 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@124.217.95.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:53:37 Quadrescence: i figured that much, thanks. but it makes no sense to do that. 09:53:46 Why not? 09:53:48 As to why I like javascript... It's a reasonably well designed language which is accesible to beginners with immediate feedback and essentially omnipresent these days. 09:54:01 <_deepfire> er, Quadrescence, not jdz, sorry 09:54:03 Javascript is the new basic and a much better language than basic. 09:54:05 Quadrescence: because javascript the language is cool. java the language is crap. jvm is cool. 09:54:16 jdz: I see. 09:54:33 I think that ECMAscript compares favourably to python. 09:54:56 And I expect it to start to make inroads against python on the server over the next couple of years. 09:55:10 I think I agree with that. 09:55:45 I think lua is reasonably well designed :) 09:55:56 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-85-113.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:56:20 But I am likely biased by the fact that the implementation is good and portable, etc. 09:56:30 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 09:58:23 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:58:35 antoszka [~antoszka@lemongrass.antoszka.pl] has joined #lisp 09:58:36 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@lemongrass.antoszka.pl] has quit [Changing host] 09:58:36 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 10:00:17 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 10:01:05 Quadrescence: I like Lua as well, though I've only touched it once or twice (WoW addons of all things). Is it "practical" (Are there libraries and bindings etc)? 10:01:12 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 10:01:34 qebab: Yes, very much so 10:01:46 hello 10:01:52 Quadrescence: Nice, going to have a deeper look at it then. :) 10:02:13 qebab: The VM is one of the few VMs out there that is register based. 10:02:24 Quadrescence: oooh, neat :o 10:02:26 slogg [~slogg@89.202.147.18] has joined #lisp 10:02:29 Quad: Interestingly, so is the one I mentioned earlier. 10:03:02 Zhivago: Yes, Dalvik is nice too 10:04:58 qebab: I won't say much more about lua since this isn't really the most appropriate place, but there actually is a lua-llvm implementation, and it has FFI and the implementation is very liberal 10:05:19 it = main lua implementation, not lua-llvm (though that naturally has a C FFI) 10:05:42 -!- slogg [~slogg@89.202.147.18] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Client Quit] 10:07:45 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:07:52 Quadrescence: I think I'll stick to the one I already have installed for now. Thanks though! 10:08:05 I would too, but just saying. ;) 10:08:06 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 10:09:30 beans? 10:10:24 Hun [~hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:12:00 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.169.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:12:50 <_deepfire> I just thought that Multics` address-space-per-user model might make sense. Obviously you'd need separate processes for untrusted stuff, like flash, for example. 10:13:29 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:13:30 <_deepfire> It's unsustainable in a C world, but in a safe, GCed world of CL it makes a hell lot more of a sense. 10:13:52 The real question should be "why do you want shared memory?" 10:14:27 <_deepfire> Don't make something more complex that it needs to be? 10:14:35 Shared memory makes things complex. 10:14:51 Instead of saying "shared memory" you should be saying "contended memory". 10:15:02 So, do you want memory contention? 10:15:09 Or is the aim something else? 10:15:10 <_deepfire> What do you mean by "contended memory"? 10:15:20 Memory over which several parties contend. 10:15:45 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:16:05 Where you need to explicitly cooperate in order to use it. 10:16:22 -!- Dawgmatix [~dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:16:36 <_deepfire> Er, and how is this added over the current model? 10:16:47 Your question does not make sense to me. 10:17:11 nunb [~nundan@59.178.174.24] has joined #lisp 10:17:19 <_deepfire> Currently you have to do IPC -- in a single address space you would do the same kinds -- but only when needed. 10:17:45 -!- rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:17:52 So the question is -- is the problem you're trying to solve "making IPC faster?" or is it "shared memory?" 10:17:53 <_deepfire> Syncrhonisation doesn't go away -- it just becomes non-mandatory. 10:18:06 Synchronization goes away when it turns into i/o. 10:18:26 <_deepfire> You just push it into the OS, right. 10:18:29 <_deepfire> It doesn't go away. 10:19:11 No. It goes away when you have a mechanism to atomically transfer the rights to a given parcel of memory. 10:19:23 Much like reading and writing datagrams from a socket. 10:19:33 The i/o decouples the ends. 10:19:59 <_deepfire> The same primitives can be developed in the single AS model. 10:20:26 <_deepfire> I don't know enough about Multics to say if they already did that. 10:20:38 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.102] has joined #lisp 10:20:40 -!- rbancroft [~rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:20:48 <_deepfire> But don't you think it's a possibility? 10:21:32 Well, I don't care about multics. 10:21:47 I'm just trying to understand what problem you want to solve. 10:22:17 <_deepfire> Well, finding something more natural than the status quo. 10:22:29 To solve what problem? :) 10:22:35 <_deepfire> Overhead. 10:22:43 Oh? 10:22:48 er, Of? 10:22:52 <_deepfire> TLB? 10:23:12 So your issue it context switch overhead? 10:23:15 er, is. 10:23:17 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-509.qas-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:23:50 <_deepfire> What do you think the ASID field on MIPS is for -- and what x86-oids have to do on each context switch? 10:23:51 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 10:24:03 <_deepfire> Right flush the whole TLB. 10:24:31 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:24:41 <_deepfire> This is the cost of an unnecessary division, IMO. 10:25:09 Well, getting each process to agree on which segment they use can make sense. 10:26:44 <_deepfire> Plus, add here the OS-side complexity/efficiency costs of mainaining many more address spaces. 10:27:11 <_deepfire> complexity costs as in solutions to the efficency costs 10:27:51 <_deepfire> I'm not claiming I understand them, I just suppose they exist. 10:28:31 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:28:55 <_deepfire> Another question: what does this mean for GC? 10:29:42 rbancroft [~rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:38 Well, it depends on if there is contention between the processes. 10:30:48 If there isn't, then each process runs its own GC happily. 10:31:54 bbiaw 10:32:15 <_deepfire> Another moment: currently, the shared libraries aren't quite perfectly shared. 10:32:59 <_deepfire> There's a duplication of resources which will be vastly reduced in a AS-per-trust-domain model. 10:33:09 attila_lendvai_ [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:34:55 <_deepfire> Linux still doesn't share page tables at all, IIRC. 10:35:45 <_deepfire> And there goes the TLB entry inefficiency -- even on ASID-enabled architectures, like MIPS. 10:35:59 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@89.Red-81-44-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:37:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:38:06 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:38:23 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:39:22 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:39:48 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 10:43:44 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:46:40 drewc: around? 10:47:16 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082E882.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:22 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has left #lisp 10:47:23 <_deepfire> Add here the cost of fork() and the stuff every process does at startup. 10:47:45 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 10:48:25 <_deepfire> Much, if not most of this, is directly attributable to the AS separation. 10:49:10 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082D6A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:49:40 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:49:49 <_deepfire> Just watch a strace.. 10:51:13 spiaggia: T 10:52:35 You still manage cl.net, right? 10:53:10 i do yes 10:53:13 What's the right way for vng, maus, and longkid to get accounts, and for creating a project? 10:54:28 spiaggia: email admin@common-lisp.net with their names and gpg keys, and request new project (it'll need a name too). 10:55:08 drewc: OK, thanks. I forget how to generate gpg keys. Is that documented somewhere? 10:55:40 spiaggia: http://www.gnupg.org/gph/en/manual.html 10:56:26 spiaggia: the first mail they receive from cl-net will be encrypted with their key, as it contains the login password. I think everything else is sent plain text after that. 10:56:46 right. Thanks! 10:56:50 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:56:56 no worries 10:57:19 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:00:04 DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:02:14 RaceCond1tion [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:04:54 drewc: Would it make sense to use GIT for a project on cl.net? 11:05:27 spiaggia: yes 11:05:52 spiaggia: yeah, probably the most popular choice these days 11:06:10 Make it accessible through ssh for members and http for non-members? 11:06:31 spiaggia: I'm planning to do that for gsharp :-) 11:06:39 Xof: Great! 11:07:45 spiaggia: ssh://, git:// and http:// are available 11:08:14 blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has joined #lisp 11:08:20 -!- blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has left #lisp 11:09:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 11:10:57 HG` [~HG@xdslfd032.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:11:59 fe[nl]ix: Right. I guess I just don't know how to make the same repository accessible in different ways. 11:13:16 spiaggia, the setup at c-l.net does that for you; just place the .git directory in the right place 11:13:19 spiaggia: put it in /project//public_html/git/.git 11:13:50 spiaggia: or /home//public_html/git/.git 11:14:56 Brilliant! 11:15:33 spiaggia: probably the easiest way is to use EasyGit(http://www.gnome.org/~newren/eg/) and do "eg publish" 11:16:20 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:16:34 Thanks for all the info. I am sure vng, maus, and longkid will come here and ask similar questions, hopefully soon. 11:18:55 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:21:51 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 11:23:22 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:24:27 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-224-23.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:24:37 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Am I missing an eyebrow?] 11:25:52 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 11:26:23 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:29 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 11:30:33 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-185-147.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:32:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1] 11:35:13 silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has joined #lisp 11:37:17 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:37:20 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:40:50 -!- RaceCond1tion [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:43:55 -!- fractalis [~user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:44:23 fractalis [~user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:44:40 -!- fractalis [~user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:44:56 fractalis [~user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:11 -!- fractalis [~user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:31 fractalis [~user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:56 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:50:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 11:50:25 spiaggia: I recommend listing only the git:// and SSH methods on project pages. git over http is a low-tech workaround that is slow and only invites complaints by users. 11:50:40 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 11:51:54 lichtblau: but in certain cases git over http is necessary because of firewall restrictions 11:52:22 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 11:53:12 okay, let me rephrase: I recommend listing git:// in a much more prominent place than http:// 11:53:13 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:53:14 RaceCond1tion [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:56:13 lichtblau: Thanks! 11:56:48 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 11:56:49 -!- QinGW1 [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:57:17 -!- _Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-8-183.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57:54 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:57:57 QinGW [~wangqingw@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 11:58:12 lichtblau: apart from the usual warning about undefined specials, the result of the yesterday's filter-branch compiles fine 12:05:29 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 12:07:54 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 12:09:29 l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 12:10:34 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 12:10:42 -!- fractalis [~user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:11:20 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:14:39 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:16:08 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.174.24] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:18:35 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:21:20 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:21:22 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 12:21:22 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:22:29 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 12:22:34 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:22:57 -!- RaceCond1tion [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: asdf] 12:24:31 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:31:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:34:19 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-185-147.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: I wish the toaster to be happy, too.] 12:35:24 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:08 fe[nl]ix: thanks. I'll test and push -f later. 12:38:45 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:43:05 what to do if I get an error like the following: 12:43:07 Server responded 404 for GET http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-plus-ssl/download/trivial-gray-streams.tar.gz.asc [Condition of type ASDF-INSTALL:DOWNLOAD-ERROR] 12:43:32 trying to asdf-install:install "cl-irc" 12:43:47 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44:41 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:45:00 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 12:45:38 RaceCondition, check out from cvs 12:46:29 minion: clbuild? 12:46:30 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 12:47:17 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-14-132.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:48:53 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-14-132.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:50:32 attila_lendvai_: check cl-irc out from CVS? 12:51:44 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:51:48 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:52:34 stassats`: was that meant for me? clbuild, I mean 12:52:43 yes 12:53:04 you should be able to continue with the SKIP-GPG-CHECK restarts. It's only the asc file that's missing. 12:53:31 and presumably you don't have my gpg key in your keyring anyway, so it wouldn't have made a difference 12:53:42 lichtblau: there was no SKIP-GPG-CHECK restart offered 12:54:18 only RETRY, RETRY, ABORT, ABORT-BREAK and ABORT 12:57:29 lichtblau: is there a way to disable GPG checks completely? 12:57:40 tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:4aff:fe01:c6e] has joined #lisp 12:58:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:59:10 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:4aff:fe01:c6e] has left #lisp 12:59:17 tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:4aff:fe01:c6e] has joined #lisp 12:59:24 asdf-install is wget + tar xzf 12:59:32 the easiest way to by-pass GPG checks is to run wget + tar xzf yourself 12:59:57 that's if for some weird reason you insist on not grabbing a recent version of the software from cvs instead 13:01:44 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:07 lichtblau: um, I'm not really used to using bleeding edge versions of everything -- why is that good? 13:02:44 -!- cadabra [~cadabra@c-174-52-81-75.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:02:44 because using bloody old versions isn't good 13:03:28 so in the lisp world there is no notion of a stable and development version? 13:03:49 RaceCondition: not that, there simply is no "release culture" ;-) 13:04:28 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-14-132.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:04:34 p_l: so does clbuild manage CVS/darcs checkouts for me so I wouldn't have to know where to get what and what depends on what? 13:04:44 hey, I actually make tarballs releases for most of my projects every now and then. I just don't test whether they work with asdf-install, because nobody uses that anymore. 13:04:59 nobody uses asdf-install? weird.. 13:05:07 so do people use clbuild? manual installs? 13:05:24 i use something similar to clbuild 13:05:54 stassats`: something you wrote yourself? 13:06:46 I use asdf-install all the time, and I bug people when their stuff doesn't work. 13:07:07 yes, it's very simple --- just a list of repositories, no dependencies 13:07:09 (which isn't often, for the stuff i use) 13:07:17 hmm, so what's a newbie ought to do? :P 13:07:35 RaceCondition: I missed the context. What are you trying to do? 13:07:41 clbuild does manage dependencies 13:07:53 he's trying to install cl-irc 13:07:57 Xach: I was just trying to asdf-install:install "cl-irc" 13:08:04 Problem #1. cl-irc is garbage! 13:08:09 I'm just playing though, I don't need cl-irc 13:08:09 Just kidding! 13:08:26 I'm just wondering if it happens often that asdf-install fails 13:08:36 Xach pasted "clfetch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94245 13:08:47 I think I got that from lichtblau 13:09:22 RaceCondition: the stuff i use most works pretty well with asdf-install. that's stuff like closure xml, ironclad, drakma, hunchentoot. 13:09:24 cl-irc is quite lovely. I've just been playing with it recently to see if it really needs threads the way beirc uses it, and found out that it works well using iolib muxing, too. That's the kind of flexibility I like in software. 13:09:41 cool 13:09:45 RaceCondition: cl-ppcre. 13:10:12 next weekend project: HemIRC 13:10:12 RaceCondition: if a specific thing doesn't work with asdf-install, sometimes it's because the author doesn't know it doesn't work but would be willing to make it work (it's generally pretty easy). 13:10:14 so if I use that clfetch script, what do I have to do with the tgz I get? just unpack it to a place CL knows about? 13:10:29 RaceCondition: in some cases the author has abandoned the software, or doesn't want to make it work with asdf-install. 13:10:29 Xach: OK, good to know 13:10:41 what i mostly don't like about asdf-install, i can't simply "update all projects" 13:10:59 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 13:11:02 RaceCondition: I'd recommend going with clbuild for now 13:11:05 btw does CL have anything similar to Python's virtualenv? 13:11:12 RaceCondition: what does virtualenv do? 13:11:28 RaceCondition: nope. 13:11:38 it basically creates a isolated "virtual" Python environment in which you can easy_install packages without affecting system global stuff 13:11:44 Well, the package system can help if you use it right. 13:12:10 pkhuong: how exactly? 13:12:20 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 13:12:23 Oh, by environment they don't mean in the same process. 13:12:40 lichtblau: yes! 13:12:59 Then yes, sure. Just point asdf:*central-registry* to different directories. 13:13:16 oh 13:13:36 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:14:04 *stassats`* still hasn't get rid of hemlock and iolib problems 13:15:29 RaceCondition: there are very few hardcoded paths and values in ASDF, and, if anything, the problem is that system-global installation tends to be forgotten. 13:16:14 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:29 I've noticed that when I'm looking at the docstring of a function, it may mention specific arguments but rarely shows a list of them 13:17:41 look one line up. 13:17:50 :) 13:18:01 I mean, when calling (documentation 'thefunc 'function) 13:18:08 ok, sorry. 13:18:22 yet if I type the function name as though I were about to call it, slime gives me this list 13:18:30 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@66.183.67.202] has left #lisp 13:18:42 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:18:48 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:48 is that slime specific 13:18:53 spacebat: the swank part of slime has code for every implementation to do it. 13:19:07 right 13:19:28 so the docstring is often meant to be read straight in the source 13:19:47 spacebat: I don't know about that. 13:19:48 not pulled out on its own by #'documentation 13:20:09 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:20:14 spacebat: I think maybe it's meant to be read in an environment that supports more than just the minimum functionality required by the standard. 13:20:40 :) perhaps the sort of environment I can't afford 13:20:40 does clbuild work with CCL equally well as with SBCL? 13:20:53 spacebat: slime is free! 13:21:09 that's what I'm using 13:21:10 spacebat: use C-c C-d d? 13:21:10 spacebat: also, every implementation has more than the standard requires, because they all can provide e.g. arglists. 13:21:20 ok 13:21:25 thanks stassats` 13:22:10 *spacebat* googles for a slime cheat sheet 13:22:30 hmm, sbcl doesn't seem to include a docstring in DESCRIBE 13:23:04 hmm, it would be interesting to have a slime log what keys you use most and then get some statistics for the nerdiest hackers 13:23:04 doh, silly me 13:23:09 it does 13:23:22 stassats`: really? where can i find the stats? 13:23:36 are you talking to yourself? 13:23:42 Xach: i was talking about sbcl's DESCRIBE 13:23:56 OK, does clbuild work with CCL at all? can I use clbuild if I otherwise use CCL? 13:24:19 RaceCondition: Yes. 13:24:20 so C-c C-d d will include both docstring and a arglist, at least on SBCL 13:24:33 describe seems to do what I want quite nicely 13:24:44 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:24:50 schme: great :) it just scared me that there are a lot of mentions of SBCL in clbuild's page 13:25:38 is it true that SBCL doesn't have an interpreter - everything evaluated is first compiled? 13:25:58 it does have an interpreter 13:26:09 but it's not on by default in most cases 13:26:17 ok 13:26:29 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:26:40 somehow I feel cheated without it, so I'll see how to turn it on 13:26:47 until I feel cheated by it :) 13:27:43 sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* 13:27:47 spacebat: the interpreter is for performance, not e.g. improved interactive debugging 13:27:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-15-88.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:28:10 What is this compiler fetish people have? 13:28:15 for performance? 13:28:38 is single stepping better in :interpret mode? 13:28:45 Yeah, do you really think that compiling (+ 1 2) to machine code is going to be faster than interpreting it as a call to a function? 13:28:53 um, where does clbuild install stuff? 13:29:00 I like the idea of redefining a macro I'm tinkering with interactively and not having to reevaluate defuns that use it for example 13:29:14 RaceCondition: in one of its subdirectories 13:31:40 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:41 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:31:41 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:32:19 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:32:19 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 13:34:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-15-88.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:33 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:35:47 masato [~masato@p1048-ipbf3309hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:36:22 -!- masato [~masato@p1048-ipbf3309hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 13:38:27 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:30 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:40:23 That's a great quote: "In lisp, the interpreter is for performance"! :-) 13:40:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:27 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:42:17 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:42:51 C-Keen [ckeen@pestilenz.org] has joined #lisp 13:43:21 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@d86-33-115-99.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:46:02 What a country! 13:46:05 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:03 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:48:26 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 13:48:44 pjb: well, or lack thereof :) 13:50:01 RaceCondition: There is some parameter or something you pass clbuild to tell it what implementation to use 13:50:57 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 13:53:17 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 13:53:43 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-whblvupogopdjegs] has left #lisp 13:54:48 SBCL fails to build it's documentation 13:55:14 texi2dvi [-p] -I "docstrings/" -I "../../contrib/" sbcl.texinfo is exiting with status 1 13:56:40 rsynnott: lack of what? 13:57:08 The interpreter. It's for lack of performance ;) 13:57:28 (I realise there are certain scenarioswhere it MIGHT be desirable to use the interpreter for performance) 13:57:54 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DE54.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:05 rsynnott: In the context of sbcl, it's only for performance, and doesn't provide many of the usual conveniences of a "normal" interpreter 13:58:30 ah, I see 13:58:32 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:49 rsynnott: it is faster to run code generated at run-time by the interpreter, than to spend time on compiling it, if it is run only once. 13:58:59 pjb: yep 13:59:06 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59:12 though that's probably not a terribly common scenario, at least in cases where it matters 13:59:41 rsynnott: well, it's a scenario that occurs often enough in the classical application domains of lisp. 14:00:34 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:01:07 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:54 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:01:54 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:01:54 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:02:04 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 14:04:49 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:05:15 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:08:03 Can anyone reproduce the build error on x86-64? 14:08:42 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:10:06 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:54 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:11:15 prxq [~mommer@e179062045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:38 tcr: linux? 14:11:51 hi 14:13:16 Pocket7878 [~Pocket@p1048-ipbf3309hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:14:12 Xach: i've made "keybindings statistics" 14:14:30 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 14:15:14 stassats`: sweet! how does it work? 14:15:18 -!- kenjin2202 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:15:26 (as someone interested in the statistics, not the plumbing) 14:15:35 i'll paste it 14:16:44 jdz: yes 14:18:34 stassats pasted "keys statistics" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94249 14:20:07 hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 14:20:51 stassats`: thanks. i'll try that out. 14:21:05 it also counts the usual characters, and doesn't count mouse events 14:21:22 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:23:18 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:23:32 if you're not interested in simple characters, then add (and ... (not (eql this-command 'self-insert-command))) to key-stats-record-command 14:25:24 blandest [~blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:26:08 Taggnostr3 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 14:28:26 -!- blandest [~blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has left #lisp 14:28:28 bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:52 kwinz3 [kwinz@212067232228.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 14:28:56 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:00 -!- ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:35:32 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 14:37:16 -!- Taggnostr3 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 14:37:24 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 14:40:02 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:40:28 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 14:40:41 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 14:41:42 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has left #lisp 14:42:29 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:43:40 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 14:46:24 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:58 ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:48:44 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-10.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:42 ejs [~eugen@230-120-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:13 -!- ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:53:22 ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:54:00 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:56:27 G'morning all. 14:56:42 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 14:57:28 bunz [~bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:28 -!- bunz [~bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:57:28 bunz [~bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #lisp 14:57:58 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslfd032.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 15:00:25 -!- ejs [~eugen@230-120-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:00:48 ejs [~eugen@230-120-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:29 HG` [~HG@xdslfd032.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:01:37 davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:11 G'morning nyef. What wonders will you bestow on us today? 15:03:06 I'm currently planning to continue with last night's hack. 15:03:30 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslfd032.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:44 Hopefully get it through target-2, maybe sort out the initial threading damage, etc. 15:03:45 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:05:05 lispm [~joswig@e177151060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:05:06 ... Ah. It's -freebsd- systems that I have to worry about. 15:05:28 nyef: what did you do last night? 15:05:44 http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/no-x86oid-assem.S 15:06:07 It fails while building PCL. 15:07:46 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@212067232228.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:08:47 madsy [~madsy@ti0207a340-0495.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:09:15 nyef: and what are the long term effects of these changes? 15:09:47 kwinz3 [kwinz@213142101137.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 15:09:52 Well, the theory is that, without any assembler code files in the runtime, it would be more easily portable to other C compilers. 15:09:56 stassats`: fewer toolchain dependencies. 15:10:17 i see 15:10:28 pkhuong: can you repeat the x86-64 failure? 15:10:53 just built fine on a amd64-bit duo-core 15:11:40 tcr: looks like a weid toolchain failure. 15:12:05 is there much GUI programming done in lisp these days? 15:12:15 I don't think PCL fasls are supposed to end in src/pcl/. 15:12:16 Hrm. Okay, it's dying in fixup.lisp, I see a /show after the (compute-standard-slot-locations), a bunch of string-ouch noise, some "setting fdefinition of ~A"s, and not the /show I put -after- the dolist... 15:12:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-118-224.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:12:35 And then a memory fault. 15:12:37 q 15:12:49 Grr... Stupid touchpad. 15:12:55 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.102] has quit [Quit: tfb] 15:13:05 pkhuong: Actually, they do end up there. 15:13:25 Are they moved afterwards? 15:13:48 I don't believe so, actually. 15:13:49 ah, brilliant emacs. 15:14:12 bjorkintosh: my impression is that people who want to make GUIs to sell commercially use LispWorks and its CAPI. 15:14:16 Yeah, emacs won't complete to a .fasl. 15:14:45 -!- bunz is now known as bunzz 15:14:50 see http://www.lissys.demon.co.uk/ for an example 15:14:57 there was a neat GUI program done with (iirc) ClozureCL too, InspireData. 15:15:18 bjorkintosh: if you were just targetting MacOS, CCL is very nice for GUI programming 15:15:34 nice. 15:15:40 i don't have osx anywhere though. 15:15:44 i have ubuntu. 15:15:54 -!- bunzz [~bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit [Quit: bye] 15:16:07 if you're just targetting linux, there are some okay gtk things 15:16:16 if you want cross-platform, things get trickier :) 15:16:18 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@213142101137.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:16:58 bunz [~bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #lisp 15:17:02 Xach: InspireData was done _by_ Clozure, but it used LispWorks, because of the need for a cross-platform GUI. 15:17:13 sellout: ok, thanks for the info. 15:17:15 trickier, being a euphemism for hair loss, sleepless nights, and raving madness within 3 hrs right? 15:17:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 15:17:54 ... Does FORMAT work properly during PCL compilation? 15:18:00 My impression is that the necessary prettiness of your gui is inversely proportional to the usefulness of the rest of your application. See piano.aero, for example. 15:18:15 nyef: I think so. 15:18:34 Okay, so if these /shows don't help then I can try formatting something more useful. 15:19:05 i have no means of judging piano, but it has a pretty looking gui. 15:19:19 blackened`_ [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:19:24 or, if you wanted to take a slightly perverse approach, you could potentially use that java bridge thingy and make a SWING UI :) 15:19:52 with abcl? 15:19:54 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:20:22 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 15:20:35 also http://xach.livejournal.com/199225.html 15:20:51 when in doubt, stick a pretty map in your GUI 15:21:51 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:21:55 InspireData is LispWorks 15:22:15 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:22:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:22:48 what the... there IS a map in there! 15:22:55 Hrm... It's choking on a find-class FILL-POINTER-OUTPUT-STREAM. 15:23:11 but CCL is supposed to be able to be used for GUI programs on Windows, too 15:23:36 lispm: well, just about anything could be used for gui programs anywhere, using an appropriate library 15:23:41 with the help of 'Cocotron' 15:23:51 oh, have people actually done that? 15:23:57 yes 15:24:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:24:19 I still worry about CCL and windows stack unwind, TBH. 15:24:32 a CCL user paid for the port of the GUI stuff to Windows, so that he can deliver his app on both platforms 15:24:48 probably 'AgentSheets' 15:24:50 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:25:07 http://www.agentsheets.com/ 15:25:11 oh, nice 15:25:43 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 15:25:53 lispm: Yes, but InspireData far predates Cocotron, and Cocotron is not yet complete  but it's definitely getting there. 15:25:53 does cocotron require Cygwin? 15:26:03 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-252.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:10 sellout, right 15:26:50 http://www.cocotron.org/Info/System_Requirements 15:26:51 Adlai: I doubt it. 15:27:25 so, concievably in a few years, you might be able to build cross-platform GUI apps using a scary stack of cocoa, cocoatron and openstep, plus ccl :) 15:27:29 kind of strange using Cocoa-compatible libraries on windows, though 15:27:44 sellout: probably requires some GCC port 15:27:51 (for the Objective C) 15:28:16 probrably there is a binary for the cocotron libraries? 15:29:53 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 15:30:45 Q: I get an error at position # in a certain lisp file. How can I use emacs 'magic' key combos to forward to that position? 15:31:09 ok, this is a emacs related question more than a lispy one. 15:31:15 c-u linenumber c-n 15:31:23 M-< C-u NNNN C-f 15:31:28 right. 15:31:36 lispm: that will go to line N, not position N 15:31:50 Will it? I thought that's what M-x goto-line was for? 15:31:50 M-g g 15:32:02 er, that's goto-line. bleh. 15:32:04 it's a CL question in the sense that only CL compilers are silly enough to report the beginning of a function as a character offset 15:32:08 Or that. (Neat! I did't know there was a binding for it.) 15:32:19 nyef: it's "new" 15:32:22 lichtblau: At least they don't report it as a TLF-number. 15:32:46 of course, if this sort of thing catches on, eventually Windows will just be an uglier way to run MacOS stuff ) 15:32:50 M-g g is go to line, now go to position :) 15:33:02 Okay, how about M-x goto-char ? 15:33:08 rsynnott, basically that's it 15:33:15 lichtblau: indeed a CL question. strange position indication for bug hunting 15:33:27 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:30 nyef: true! 15:33:31 c-u position c-f 15:33:32 j0be: what lichtblau said earlier will go to position N 15:34:33 Xach lichtblau: so "M-< C-u NNNN C-f" - how do I interprete this then? 15:34:41 -!- C-Keen [ckeen@pestilenz.org] has left #lisp 15:34:50 carlocci [~nes@93.37.203.138] has joined #lisp 15:34:57 j0be: M-x goto-char is probably easier :) 15:35:04 (worse; if they port it to Windows Mobile, then WM will just be a super-ugly iPhone app running thing :) ) 15:35:19 sellout, any documentation somewhere about how to set up CCL with cocotron (and deliver an app) on windows? 15:35:25 j0be: it's helpful to learn how to interpret emacs key suggestions in their native format. 15:35:40 Adlai: there seem to be a few posts on the ccl mailing list on the subject 15:35:44 Xach: indeed M-x goto-char will do 15:35:53 *Xach* shudders as he thinks of the awful ESR/O'Reilly emacs book that replaced all M- with ESC- 15:36:17 rsynnott, probably. I generally skip the Cocoa-related stuff because I never thought I'd be able to use it. 15:36:21 maybe his Meta key was broken 15:36:40 Ugh. Key-repeat alone hurts on ESC-, and it's too far out of the way for use as any sort of common prefix. 15:36:41 my meta key doesn't always work in terminals 15:36:52 I learned emacs before Meta keys were common, and still habitually use ESC for a few things 15:37:10 Adlai: Want a worse situation? A window that re-maps C-c to C-g ! 15:37:17 Why first meta-< ? == "mark set" 15:37:31 j0be: Moves to the start of the buffer. 15:38:42 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 15:38:50 nyef, what does that? 15:38:53 housel: same here. but i'd rather learn the right terminology. 15:38:55 nyef Xach lichtblau: ah!! got it, thanks! 15:39:09 *sellout* uses C-[ for Meta, but it's still M-, not C-[- or ESC-. 15:39:38 the damage 15:39:42 Adlai: M-< sets the mark and then moves to the start of the buffer. 15:39:56 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066167.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 15:39:57 thousands of readers will type escape x ... 15:40:01 -!- Pocket7878 [~Pocket@p1048-ipbf3309hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:40:03 nyef, I was asking about remapping C-c to C-g, not M-< 15:40:20 Oh. 15:40:31 Windows console with cygwin. 15:41:00 (You want to quit emacs? Too bad!) 15:41:03 hehe, anticipation of that kind of stuff is what has made me put off installing Cygwin on my windows VirtualBox... 15:41:40 Who uses the windows console? 15:41:46 mintty is much nicer 15:43:12 Just use X cygwin! 15:43:29 can CCL + Cocotron produce standalone apps that don't scream "secret alien technology" the moment my windows-happy coworkers try to run them? 15:43:43 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:56 Adlai: I think you can leave the "CCL +" out of there. 15:44:09 what do you mean? 15:44:29 ephcon [~ephcon@student164-64.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 15:44:38 *Adlai* knows very little about cocoa, or development on windows, for that matter. 15:44:57 Adlai: That the appearance/interaction is determined entirely by Cocotron. A CCL + Cocotron app is no different than a Obj-C + Cocotron app. 15:45:54 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:46:52 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:47:04 Adlai: So, any screenshots of Cocotron stuff should give you an idea of how it blends with Windows. Here is one: http://www.cocotron.org/blog/2008/02/nsopenglview-example.html 15:48:14 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:48:58 wow 15:49:05 cocotron++ 15:49:08 sellout, looks good. The CCL IDE runs on windows with this stuff too, right? 15:49:41 My first reaction when seeing that screenshot was "weird, the menu bar is attached to the window," so that might give you some idea of how familiar I am with the look-and-feel of Windows ;) 15:49:49 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:50:27 malcolm_reynolds [~malc@mreynolds.cs.ucl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:50:35 Adlai: Well, getting the IDE working hasn't been an explicit goal so far, but I think it does work (at least to some extent) under Cocotron. No promises, though. 15:51:25 http://www.flickr.com/photos/linmagazine/2983974364/ 15:51:42 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 15:51:50 left Cocoa, right Cocotron 15:51:51 hi, quick question about FFI. i'm planning to write bindings to matlab (laugh all you want, I have my reasons) and I have the student version, which is 32 bit only. Will I be able to write FFI bindings from a 64 bit lisp (I'm running SBCL x86_64 on OS X 10.6.2)? and if so is CFFI the preferred way to do this? 15:51:52 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:04 milanj [~milan@93.87.248.32] has joined #lisp 15:52:40 malcolm_reynolds: no. 15:52:42 are there reasons for using 64-bit lisp too? 15:52:47 malcolm_reynolds: you can't load a 32-bit library into a 64-bit executable no. 15:52:48 sellout, it sounds worth checking out. carpool is heading out now, so I guess I'll look at it in depth later tonight. 15:52:51 And CFFI is the preferred way. 15:53:14 Well, some people prefer CFFI, at least. 15:53:17 luis: wouldn't it be possible with some glue assembler code? 15:53:29 stassats`: no not really, that's just how I'm setup now. I can switch back to 32 bit lisp, I just wondered if I needed to 15:53:36 pjb: Typically, only on windows. 15:53:48 pjb: no. They're different ABIs and ISAs. 15:54:02 In any case, it would be hard to pass data to the 32-bit library, since we'd have to map the pointers to low 32-bit memory range... 15:54:23 wow so many lisps 15:54:33 so little time. 15:54:35 okay. but recompiled sbcl to 32 bit, and I should be golden? 15:54:39 Clozure != Clojure 15:54:40 Clearly, we need a 32-bit x86-64 target. 15:54:42 so confusing 15:54:53 malcolm_reynolds: yes. 15:54:58 adu: unfortunately 15:55:01 malcolm_reynolds: if you really wanted to, you could possibly have a 32bit wrapper around matlab which communicated with your 64bit lisp via some RPC thing 15:55:06 though that is slightly mad :) 15:55:26 nyef: there are some legal x86-32 instructions that are reinterpreted in x86-64 too. 15:55:29 so many Lisps 15:55:36 so little time 15:55:58 fortunately, most of them can be ignored, depending on what you want to do :) 15:56:00 pkhuong: Fair point. But we could probably do with such a port anyway for other reasons. 15:56:01 haha yeah my supervisor is already going to consider doing anything not in C++ on windows a waste of my time. so I think I better take whatever the obvious option is. 15:56:14 Anything that tries to work around 64/32 bit mismatches will end up being a huge hack... except maybe with separate processes IPC and shmem. 15:56:19 nyef: true. 15:56:34 rsynnott, they have the tendency to come back 15:57:15 *nyef* notes that windows has said huge hack, and has since the days of win95 when it was for 32/16 bit mismatches. 15:57:29 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: ---> home] 15:57:44 nyef: you get to communicate between 32 and 64 bit dlls? 15:57:53 I forget, actually. 15:57:54 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:03 You certainly could between 32 and 16. 15:59:52 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 16:00:12 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 16:01:39 <_deepfire> Why doesn't CL have a most-specific-last method combination included? 16:01:50 pkhuong: that's the only way I've ever heard of anyone doing 32bit/64bit work 16:01:55 (IPC of some sort) 16:02:05 lispm: well, ccl did :) 16:02:35 rsynnott: right 16:02:39 Meh. What you do is dedicate the low 2 gigs of address space to the 32-bit stuff and have a system-call to change the CPU mode. 16:02:57 rsynnott, even worse, since friday I have Open Genera on my Mac 16:03:19 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:03:31 -!- hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:04:19 sometimes I hope there are more Lisp users than implementations 16:04:26 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:04:43 lispm: using VMWare Fusion? I tried setting that up, had no joy. when I ran genera it just chewed up all the CPU time and gave a variety of not too helpful error messages 16:04:50 no native 16:04:50 heheh, and just as I talk about weird lisps that no-one uses, someone mails the clsql list asking about problems using it with cmucl 16:04:58 no VMWare anymore 16:05:26 much faster, too 16:05:44 holy moley, dropped into LDB while doing warm init of sbcl. this is a huge par. 16:05:56 *rsynnott* remembers cmucl not so fondly; at one stage I had a linux 2.4.x VPS, so SBCL wouldn't work and I was stuck with cmucl :) 16:06:12 hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 16:06:24 rsynnott: you poor, poor thing. 16:06:36 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:06:39 sayyestolife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:06:47 rsynnott: I remember it worked, and was fast. What was your problem with it? 16:06:54 its default multi-processing setup didn't get along with hunchentoot 16:06:58 (or tbnl, then) 16:06:59 and it still works, and is likely faster 16:07:13 easy to fix, but it was my first experience with lisp at the time, so I was a bit confused 16:07:16 rsynnott: right, because it doesn't have native threads 16:07:19 nope 16:07:41 MissPiggy [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 16:07:54 (I assume what it does have is cooperative) 16:08:06 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:08:21 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:08:52 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:49 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:31 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:12:33 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:00 -!- stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:15:31 'morning 16:17:15 morning, Fade 16:18:17 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:21:02 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 16:25:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-118-224.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:26:48 smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:46 so what would a multi-touch paredit look like, since we'll all soon be doing everything on our iPads/GPads? *has visions of 'air-quotes' to toggle paren-matching in Minority Report CLIM 4...* 16:28:11 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:28:32 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:46 splittist: that's nothing. Plan for the mind reading device. 16:31:00 splittist: so far, no-one has done anything very interesting with multitouch and editors 16:31:14 though now that devices with bigger screns are turning up, there could be interesting things 16:31:53 Breech_1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 16:32:17 <_3b__> seems like you would need a big font to edit usefully with fingers 16:33:09 _3b__: unless operating by sexps allows for a better granularity - you don't have all that tricky 'have I included the opening paren or not' that makes fine control so annoying 16:33:23 *_3b__* 's finger pretty easily covers 10 characters of 5 lines 16:34:13 *splittist* tends to use the back of his finger-nail 16:34:31 admittedly not for multi-touch. Hmmm 16:35:37 _3b__: you could use pinch-zooming, though :) 16:35:48 *stassats`* has long nails for playing guitar, so it's easy to use touch screens too 16:36:20 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:21 Really, to make touch screen worth for fine editing, you would need tactile feedback. So that you could detect the separation between two character cells. 16:37:23 stassats`: well, easy to use resistive ones 16:37:31 do capacitive ones work with fingernails? 16:37:45 i don't know the difference 16:37:57 I wonder how well touch-typing works for on-screen keywords where you can't feel the keys physically. 16:38:04 The thing is that if it works at all with some training, then you can stop painting the virtual keyboard, overlay it with the text being edited, and use the entire screen as the keyboard. 16:38:09 (back before the iphone came out when everyone was going on about how exactly it was going to fail, one pundit said that women would be unable to use it, because of their long fingernails) 16:38:16 (which apparently all women have) 16:38:41 well, with virtual keyboards, you can have the parentheses upfront 16:38:43 the main advantage of multi-touch would then be that it's required for modifier keys to work 16:38:56 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:09 (--> (woman ?x) (and (has ?x (fingernail ?y)) (long ?y))) 16:39:27 none of this matters for the ipad anyway, since we're not allowed to do anything with it except buy crappy apps. 16:39:34 :) 16:39:45 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:56 sykopomp: when the Mac started there was nothing 16:40:13 I guess an emacs would be one of those evil interpreter things 16:40:33 it's the same with the iPad, I'm pretty sure that development tools will come 16:40:40 sykopomp: lots of people seem to be looking at writing apps to use it as a sort of add-on control system for a computer 16:40:45 lispm: not if they don't _allow_ them. 16:40:49 (mixer apps and the like) 16:40:53 -!- ejs [~eugen@230-120-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:41:00 sykopomp: that will change 16:41:07 think Mathematica on the iPad 16:41:36 lispm: I'm thinking "screw the iPad, give me a piece of hardware I don't have to rent from a turtleneck-toting megalomaniac douchebag" 16:41:36 -!- Fufie [~poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:42:02 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:10 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:28 I think it is a start 16:42:34 sykopomp: well, you could get a Windows Tablet :) You have to buy that from a shouty chair-throwing loon, though ;) 16:42:36 like the Mac was a start in 1984 16:42:36 there's plenty of other, better starts. 16:42:37 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 16:42:43 without normal floppies 16:42:47 no printer port 16:42:52 no serial interface 16:42:57 tiny memory 16:43:06 and somehow good? Come on. Seriously. 16:43:08 a few years later all that was fixed 16:43:10 well, it can bring copies that will be better than the original ? :) 16:43:15 lispm: there were fewer standards back then 16:43:25 serial lines were pretty standard 16:43:26 sykopomp: you don't rent anything on the ipad. 16:43:30 but in any case it doesn't look like the ipad will be aimed as a general purpose computer replacement 16:43:41 it's a web browser and computer for people who hate computers 16:43:51 I'm pretty sure we will see multitasking, more app types, and so on 16:43:59 pkhuong: I'm commenting on how the hardware isn't really yours to do whatever you please. 16:44:16 neither is the software, for that matter 16:44:36 sykopomp: I guess that model will change over time 16:44:40 when we're talking about a computer that is perfectly capable of more than that, I find the restrictions annoyin.g 16:44:54 lispm: not if you keep throwing money at them as if everything's fine and dandy :P 16:44:59 lispm: I doubt it. it's more and more proprietary, if anything 16:45:02 alternately, you could look for alternatives and throw money at _those_ 16:45:09 sykopomp: if you have the development environment, you can install other stuff 16:45:30 lispm: I'm not going to support Apple and their bullshit :P 16:45:41 if you paid for it, you mean. And you still can't make everything the hardware could do. just what the api permits you 16:45:41 sykopomp: sure, whatever 16:46:10 and I'm surprised people are willing to bend over for something that can't even run an application in the background without risking bricking. 16:46:30 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:33 sykopomp: that's now, the machine is not even out 16:46:34 sykopomp: use an iphone. Use a windows mobile phone. There's why 16:46:42 -!- Breech_1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:46:47 (I suspect iphone 4.0 will have some sort of multitasking 16:47:05 lispm: that's how it is on the iphone since some years. same business model 16:47:13 s/since/for/ 16:47:15 no it wasn't 16:47:27 the iPhone is limited by the whole carrier stuff 16:47:32 being a phone 16:47:36 rsynnott: the n900 looks promising. Why do I have to bother with a windows phone? 16:47:40 lispm: not really. 16:47:44 sure 16:47:47 the positive of the iPad is that (a) developers will be used to building for new platforms (b) users will be used to starting from ground zero so (c) when the next LispMachine comes it will RULE THE WORLD! 16:47:50 there are phones that are much, much more open than the iphone 16:48:05 that's new, try to go back a few years 16:48:18 even then 16:48:18 the whole thing will open up over time 16:48:26 sykopomp: think about what was happening three years ago, though 16:48:34 rsynnott: OpenMoko? 16:48:41 which was basically unusable 16:48:45 koollman: I could not even install an update on my Sony Erricsson 16:49:00 lispm: same problem. thinks nokia on higher end phones. 16:49:02 I'm not saying that the iPhone is perfect, just why it was a success :) 16:49:04 and the iPhone was? I remember lots of complaints about how slow and impossible-to-use the old iphones were. 16:49:23 but the thing is moot: with some chance there will be open tablets with similar hardware specs 16:49:24 afaict, it was a success because it was 'hip' and the hipsters were all over that. 16:49:40 sykopomp: 70 million hipsters? :) 16:49:43 *rsynnott* is dubious 16:49:44 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:50:09 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:50:14 by the end of 2010, there should be similar alternatives to the iPad 16:50:20 Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 16:50:27 there were alternatives to the ipad before it was even announced. 16:50:32 hell. Better ones. 16:50:37 sykopomp: really? What? 16:50:44 Worse is Better. Nobody Knows Anything. People don't buy consumer items for technical reasons. (Typing on an iPad without emacs keybindings would be annoying.) 16:50:48 there are Windows Tablets, of course, but they're not at all the same sort of thing 16:50:50 there was that $200 tablet that got announced weeks beforehand 16:50:53 I doubt that. sadly. it's harder to sell something at that price, when there's no shiny apple logo on it. even with close enough specs (which will be hard, it's really good hardware) 16:51:02 sykopomp: that was just a not-very-good browser 16:51:06 and was $500 16:51:09 and there's been tablet PCs for quite a while. 16:51:13 (if you're talking about crunchpad/joojoo) 16:51:21 rsynnott: nah, there was a lot of buzz about a $200 tablet that ran linux 16:51:37 yeah; windows for pen devices are nothing like the same sort of thing as an ipad/possible chromeos/android tablet 16:51:44 sykopomp: no, the ral competitors should appear this summer 16:51:48 real 16:51:52 if you take just the hardware spec, it's pretty amazing. but can't be tinkered with without breaking the apple license 16:52:09 *stassats`* is happy with his n810, at least i can put in a pocket and run lisp on it 16:52:11 sykopomp, tablets are old, should I mention my Newton? 16:52:43 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 16:52:48 quack [~quack@81.193.82.10] has joined #lisp 16:53:57 I think the Nvidia/Tegra-based tablets can be interesting 16:54:14 *Phoodus* has a Pandora on order 16:54:15 run Linux on them, get an ARM-based Lisp (sigh) 16:55:12 and I have enjoyed my N800 16:55:17 a LispOS on one of these devices could actually be a success.. there's not so much hardware variety 16:55:20 really nails down the fact that these things need to be pocketable 16:55:48 n900 should be even better, though with a smaller screen 16:56:01 adeht: I wonder if someone already tried it (on recent hardware, I mean, not lispM) 16:56:04 I don't care about size at all, just resolution 16:56:17 the smaller size with the same (or greater) the resolution, the better 16:56:24 and there are efforts on running Clisp properly on it 16:56:41 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student164-64.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:57:17 PCMag mentions five tablets based on the Nvidia Tegra 2 16:57:18 http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2357877,00.asp 16:57:20 -!- silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has quit [Quit: silenius] 16:59:06 adeht: not much hardware variety? surely you jest! 16:59:23 10" display for just 1024x600? 16:59:35 p_l: oh? 16:59:35 ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:59:46 come on, 800x480 at 4" is pretty standard, surely they can fit 1024xsomething in 5" or less 17:00:01 or get real resolutions at 10" 17:00:55 these things are all GPU-laden; running higher resolutions shouldn't tax it much 17:01:53 adeht: let's say - the fact that any two devices are based on the same SoC don't mean that you can easily port between them - it just means that you might have drivers for the stuff embedded into chip, assuming you find the board config data. Then you have to deal with various extra data (of critical importance - power management, communication, etc) 17:02:01 charlie [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:12 -!- charlie is now known as tsuru 17:02:14 s/data/drivers/ 17:03:29 adeht: sometimes, the hw parts might be similar enough, but the memory layout would be completely different. other times, you might have a completely different set of features enabled on the SoC, with external chips doing various extra stuff (like a GPU?) 17:04:09 Don't bother with a full LispOS for these things, let the Linux people get them running on their kernel, then run on top of that. 17:04:19 I have a problem with SBCL startup time. I have >30s from start to GUI (cl-gtk2), which is too much for my application. Besides dumping an image, is there any way to speed up the startup? 17:04:21 adeht: oh, and sometimes you *can't* get the source to some drivers unless under very specific licenses due to regulatory prohibitions 17:04:26 compare this to the situation for PCs 17:04:45 quack: where is the time spent? 17:04:48 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 17:04:57 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:05:14 adeht: PCs, at the very least, have MPS/ACPI and PCI, which have standardised interfaces and can supply config data to OS to setup the drivers 17:05:18 p_l: I don't talk about _any_ device.. pick a winner 17:05:28 adeht: also all PCs implement IBM XT API :) 17:05:34 quack: does that happen only the first time you loaded (and thus compiled) the library? 17:05:58 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:13 nyef: even better, use OKL4 and L4Linux to deal with hw differences, and have a lispOS run in parallel :) 17:06:29 Where's the gain? 17:07:14 p_l: Just limit yourself to what chromeos supports :) 17:07:26 nyef: you get the experience of full bottom-up lispOS, with a clearcut interface to hw provided by linux 17:07:27 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:07:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-118-224.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:07:50 Xach: firing up the libraries. I have done a fat sbcl.core, but even then the startup time seems excessive (> 20s). 17:08:34 how large is that core? 17:08:40 The fat sbcl code has cl-gtk2, clsql, cl-pdf and others compiled in (blessed clbuild!) 17:08:54 quack: have you done any profiling? 17:09:08 quack: hmm, i'm curious what "firing up the libraries" means. what tsuru said. 17:09:25 quack: in my experience, fasl loading can be very slow on sbcl, but putting things in an image is very fast. 17:09:29 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 17:09:34 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:52 Woohoo! Let's hear it for remembering to use the profiler. 17:10:07 *That* was not the place I would have first looked for huge time savings. 17:10:11 paolo [~chatzilla@93-34-184-178.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:11:13 gigamonkey: we're on the edge of our seats! (or armchairs, for those on the iPad) 17:11:30 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11:30 ejs [~eugen@94-127-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:33 starting from the core file can be pretty slow if the OS doesn't have it buffered already 17:11:42 Xach: yes, I have profiled. The time is spent on cl-gtk2 and associated libraries mainly. When it gets to my section of the code (using those libraries), most time has spent. 17:11:59 on startup? 17:12:00 Still much faster than fasl loading though. 17:12:46 splittist: Hard to explain without a bunch of context. But it turned out a function that didn't even need to be called was eating up a huge percentage of time in my code. 17:12:46 The application is a schematic editor, which I want to translate to CL and open source. So, it has to be fast. 17:13:05 I'm writing an implemementation of AIML (sort of) 17:13:24 gigamonkey: hey, I did that too :D 17:13:36 lichtblau: with a core, I have a huge problem: all libraries are compiled in (hence the size), so they are no more dynamic. 17:13:40 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066167.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13:56 paolo_ [~chatzilla@93-34-184-178.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:13:59 AI ML? 17:14:01 quack: what do you mean by "no more dynamic"? 17:14:26 pkhuong: I suspect "not dynamic anymore" 17:14:40 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:41 tsuru: same question. 17:14:46 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:00 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:15:07 pkhuong: I mean libraries like gtk.so.* seem to be (correct me if I am wrong) linked in the code and not called at runtime. 17:15:14 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:15:14 (or recalled). 17:15:19 quack: maybe it is possible to start basic functionality, and load the rest in the background. 17:15:23 quack: absolutely not. 17:15:25 just an idea. 17:16:02 quack: cores only save lisp code and data. so files are reloaded when SBCL loads the core in. 17:16:03 prxq: that is what I tried to do. 17:16:09 I imagine gigamonkey will set up a farm of A.L.I.C.E.s to ask questions of well known people in a range of areas, thereby parallelizing his next 100 'X at Work' books... 17:16:29 -!- paolo [~chatzilla@93-34-184-178.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:16:39 -!- paolo_ is now known as paolo 17:16:57 pkhuong: even gtk.so.*? I believe to have read that the whole process memory is munched in. 17:16:59 quack: also, it is possible that cl-gtk has some init code that makes it take so long. Also a shot in the dark. 30s is an awful lot of time. 17:17:50 quack: .so files are reloaded. 17:18:29 prxq: I find 30s awful and uncalled for. I get a 2-3s delay in python, running cold (unbuffered and uncompiled to *pyc). Now, I like list and feel confortable with it. 17:18:39 unicode [~user@95.214.94.186] has joined #lisp 17:19:03 quack: and what does the profiler tell you? 17:19:06 sellout- [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:07 pkhuong: thanks, I did not know that. 17:19:51 How do you measure that 20 second delay? 17:20:07 quack: what machine are you on? 17:20:15 pkhuong: less than 1s is my code until repl. Bringing up the dialig box accounts for the rest. Mostly functions in cl-gtk2-gtk package. 17:20:17 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2-dev] 17:20:26 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 17:20:46 prxq: linux 64bit clbuild sbcl 1.0.35 17:21:06 quack: ok, so this is really about executing cl-gtk2 code. Have you tried profiling your GUI's startup? 17:21:08 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.94.186] has quit [Client Quit] 17:21:19 I antecipate 30s for a long running process is OK. but for a desktop application... 17:21:26 quack: loading matlisp takes 0.5 seconds. 17:21:41 here at least 17:21:45 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:46 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:50 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:21:50 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 17:21:58 prxq: I do not know matlisp. Is that a gui application? 17:22:05 quack: I don't think anyone disagrees with you 17:22:13 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:19 quack: no, numerical stuff. But it is somewhat largish. 17:22:48 prxq: we've established this isn't about SBCL's start up time. 17:22:55 prxq: I ask because I find it weird. Curses come up in less than 2s. 17:23:13 The REPL pops up in less than a second. 17:23:20 oh ok 17:23:47 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:23:57 I do not have the code in this machine. I can reprofile it later. 17:24:34 I'll try to isolate cl-gtk2 and see if that particular library has some time-spending startup. 17:24:35 quack: I would bet cl-gtk2 does something weird. 17:24:44 right 17:25:32 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 17:26:38 prxq: in this machine, I tried (require :cl-gtk2-gtk) on a virgin sbcl repl. Now, the library was already compiled. It took 22s. 17:26:45 Problem solved. 17:26:57 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:27:02 wow 17:27:22 what does it do all that time? does it run at 100% cpu? 17:28:15 prxq: one core (50%) was occupied at around 100%. 17:28:22 if you're calling REQUIRE or ASDF:OPERATE again while the core file starts up, a certain slow-down is inevitable, because ASDF needs to check for updated fasls. 17:28:23 didn't one of the lisp gtk2 bindings have these ridiculous 20 meg fasls? 17:28:30 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:38 In addition, cl-gtk2 might have something in it making this process particularly slow. 17:28:51 Wait a minute, please, the sun has set here, I have to get back inside. 17:29:06 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:15 Try not doing ASDF stuff during core file startup at all and measure startup time then. 17:29:45 blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has joined #lisp 17:31:02 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:32:27 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:32:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 17:32:41 -!- hugod [~hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:32:57 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:33:18 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:35 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 17:34:46 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:34:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/94254 how bad is this test error / should I be worried enough not to use that build? it appears in (IIRC) 1.0.33, 1.0.34 and 1.0.35 on x86 darwin. compiling using x86_64 darwin 1.0.35. 17:34:58 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:19 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 17:35:25 -!- quack [~quack@81.193.82.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:36:29 finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has joined #lisp 17:37:47 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:37:49 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-127-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:38:42 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:48 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:39:04 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:24 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:40:36 finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has joined #lisp 17:41:15 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:41:26 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:24 malcolm_reynolds: I have no idea how bad it is. I get the same though (IIRC), and more if threads are enabled. 17:43:09 it's kind of annoying.. x86_64 without threads passes all tests, but I now need x86 for matlab linkage. I assume you've been using a lisp with these errors and haven't experienced any catastrophes? 17:44:22 I wouldn't worry about the float.pure.lisp or debug.impure.lisp tests, at least. 17:44:58 is the book 'the little lisper' to be found anywhere online? 17:45:13 Unhandled error means that a test failed but that it was a bare ASSERT, and thus doesn't provide useful summary information. 17:45:15 i've looked, but i can't seem to find it. 17:45:38 I'm not sure about the foreign.test.sh thing, or the packages.impure.lisp thing. 17:46:01 Actually, for the foreign.test.sh thing, it might be that the test suite doesn't know how to run the C compiler in 32-bit mode. 17:46:10 malcolm_reynolds: Is this with threads? I get a lot more failiures then... 17:46:37 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-31-165.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:47:11 ephcon [~ephcon@student164-64.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 17:48:22 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:48:29 malcolm_reynolds: I think threads are buggy on OS X. Had some strange effects, but not narrowed it down. Note also: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/310208 17:48:59 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:39 Yeah, OS X has some truly inspired damage with respect to threading, fork, and signal handling. 17:49:59 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:14 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:51:10 demmeln: I've turned off threads as I don't use them (not for this project at least) 17:51:35 nyef: didn't it use plain Mach for that? Or did their XNU introduced some "interesting" stuff 17:51:47 if the foreign.test.sh is caused by the compiler expecting 32 bit (where snow leopard defaults to 64) I should probably try and fix that] 17:52:01 p_l: It's typically trouble with the posix layer. 17:52:04 demmeln pasted "tests-1_0_34_10-x86-64-threads" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94256 17:52:35 heh scary 17:52:37 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:53:00 nyef: what makes me interested is that I heard that a big reason behind DEC's switch to OSF/1 from Ultrix was due to Mach having a working threading system 17:53:29 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:36 p_l: Yeah, as I said, it's holes in the posix layer that Apple is using, and possibly holes in the workarounds that SBCL is using. 17:54:19 ... so they took the POSIX and Mach parts into blender after removing randomly stuff and mixed? :D 17:54:31 I have no idea. 17:54:49 *nyef* is not an OS X person, even after having helped with some of the SBCL hacking for OS X. 17:54:57 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.203.138] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 17:55:15 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:55:16 demmeln pasted "tests-1_0_34_10-x86-64-no-threads" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94257 17:55:32 What happened to annotation? 17:55:34 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:39 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 17:55:55 sorry 17:56:13 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 17:56:26 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:56:36 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:26 -!- sayyestolife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:58:02 carlocci [~nes@93.37.203.138] has joined #lisp 17:58:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:58:59 demmeln annotated #94256 "test results for 32 bit" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94256#1 17:59:00 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-35-82-250-247-83.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:22 I think my favorite threads-and-fork bug is https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/451111 if only for the opportunity to do something stupid and hackish (spork). 18:00:06 hugod [~hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:01:03 Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-145.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:05:18 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:33 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 18:05:35 ejs [~eugen@94-127-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:42 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-127-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:13 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Client Quit] 18:07:17 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:08:44 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:08:52 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:08:56 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:09:11 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:02 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:12:12 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:13:01 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student164-64.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:13:09 sayyestolife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:13:20 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:14:24 -!- blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:17:54 -!- Breech_ [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:18:15 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 18:18:24 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:42 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:38 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:08 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:21:06 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:59 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:07 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 18:23:08 -!- hugod [~hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 18:25:32 mrsolo [~mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-wthhnqmczdrkseqv] has joined #lisp 18:26:50 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:28:33 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 18:28:51 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-252-151.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:29:15 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-2-153.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:29:21 okay adding -m32 to CFLAGS means I don't get a fialure on foreign.test.sh, so thanks whoever suggested that 18:30:58 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-19-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:31:13 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:32:03 how does one reverse the effect of (declaim (optimize sb-cover:store-coverage-data))? 18:32:37 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:32:56 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:03 I assume (optimize (store-coverage-data 0)) ? 18:33:56 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:34:11 hmm, I must have been doing something wrong then 18:34:52 levente_meszaros: have you recompiled everything? 18:35:35 pkhuong, yes, it's automated testing from a clean system 18:35:45 is there a functional, portable sockets library? usockets seems to have stagnated in 2008 before it was finished. 18:36:05 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:36:18 oconnore_: Some systems provide something that claims to be sb-bsd-sockets, making it a semi-portable interface. 18:36:38 ok, that sounds good 18:36:43 thanks nyef 18:36:47 oconnore_: stagnated in what way? 18:36:55 minion: please tell oconnore_ about iolib 18:36:55 the last update was in 2008 18:36:56 oconnore_: have a look at iolib: I/O(mainly networking) library containing: a BSD sockets library, a DNS resolver and an I/O multiplexer that supports select(2), epoll(4) and kqueue(2). http://www.cliki.net/iolib 18:37:07 that's not true 18:37:09 oconnore_: what update do want it to have? 18:38:54 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-57-194.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:39:02 Xach: I was basing my judgements on this table: http://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/#development 18:39:10 it doesn't appear completed 18:39:18 and development appears to have stopped in 2008 18:39:21 perhaps you should base them on your actual requirements 18:39:54 oconnore_: that's not true, development is still going today 18:41:16 oh, ok 18:41:46 the only reason i asked, is because I thought something similar to the uffi -> cffi switch occurred 18:41:58 for example, uffi appears to be a nice library, but everyone is using cffi now 18:42:31 ephcon [~ephcon@umass-948-209.wireless.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 18:42:44 if you're concerned about joining the herd, you should use sbcl on linux/amd64 with clbuild 18:45:27 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:45:58 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-61-164.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:46:17 Xach: so you look down on people who want to use popular (and therefore actively developed, bug free) libraries? 18:46:28 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:47:11 i don't understand that. 18:47:20 oconnore_: Not at all. 18:49:52 oconnore_: I don't think popular implies either of "active development" or "bug free", though. 18:50:15 in lisp-land at least :) 18:50:29 bipt [~bpt@cl-509.qas-01.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:58 Xach: ah, so then how should I find libraries that are actively developed and bug free without using popularity as a metric? 18:51:24 ... You can't: "There's always one more bug." 18:51:25 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has joined #lisp 18:51:32 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:52:28 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 18:53:01 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-61-67.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:53:02 oconnore_: I think a better activity would be finding a librarie that fits your needs, and if more than one fits, those are decent secondary characteristics. 18:53:08 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:33 also keep in mind that if you stumble upon bugs you can keep the library bug free by actively developing it 18:53:50 true 18:53:59 oconnore_: if something is mostly done, and no bugs appear, then development stagnates. This does not mean it is abandoned or broken 18:54:22 and also, you asked here. that's one heuristic :) 18:54:40 i see 18:54:41 there is lisp code from the early 90's with very minimal bitrot. Try that in C 18:55:32 also true 18:55:35 well, thank you all for the advice 18:55:44 prxq: hah. one of the first C programs I wrote, in 1995 or so, is still included in debian with only minor changes :) 18:56:27 ok! :-) 18:56:35 One of the largest C programs I wrote is only broken because they changed the semantics of arrays in the new standard, a two character change is sufficient to make it work again. 18:56:54 maybe I should have said, try that in C++ or one of the scripting langs. 18:57:41 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@umass-948-209.wireless.umass.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:16 prxq: scheme? 18:58:37 php 18:58:42 Does INTERCAL count as a scripting language? 18:58:55 ok you won 18:58:57 :-) 18:59:09 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:59:10 if PHP counts as a language, then INTERCAL should sit on a pedestal as an example of great language design. 18:59:11 adeht, usually I look for a library because I don't want to write a piece of code. having to bugfix the library kind of makes this pointless 18:59:28 I think I may prefer a young-and-hence-may-contain-a-few-bugs-but-actively-maintained over a supposedly-bug-free-but-abandoned library 18:59:31 -!- konr`` [~user@201.82.133.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:19 Okay, I'm moderately convinced that the bug I've been trying to track down today has to do with what I did to all_threads... But I'm not sure -what-. 19:00:19 sykopomp: fact is, there are large codebases in php 19:00:23 Knowledge is not well transferable in code 19:00:35 prxq: I know. I work on one of them. 19:00:56 sykopomp: uff 19:01:09 it's not all _that_ bad, since some of the testing I do on it, I've written in Lisp :) 19:01:50 Last time I had to do any major PHP work, I ended up writing extensions to the system in Perl instead. 19:01:50 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:51 sounds perverse. but that's what big systems often are ;) 19:02:07 sykopomp: just because you pin wings to a rat doesn't mean you've made a pigeon. :) 19:02:12 or should i say, sufficiently big systems 19:02:21 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-224-23.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: asd] 19:02:25 Fade: :D 19:02:38 Fade: no, but at least it flies sufficiently far if you throw it as hard as you can. 19:02:46 ephcon [~ephcon@umass-948-209.wireless.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 19:02:47 *Fade* chuckles 19:03:17 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-224-23.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:03:26 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:04:28 HET4: I don't see how it makes it pointless, but I do see how your approach can leave one frequently disappointed 19:04:30 -!- davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:16 fractalis [~user@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:21 kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:46 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 19:07:53 Heh. Logo is a Lisp-2 but instead of having to use FUNCTION to evaluate a symbol in the function namespace, you have to use THING to evaluate it in the variable namespace. 19:08:11 -!- l_n [~foo@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:08:36 finalprefix [~finalpref@115.240.13.159] has joined #lisp 19:08:37 And as in Common Lisp with #' there's some syntactic sugar for THING 19:08:44 gigamonkey: interesting! 19:09:21 This, of course, leads to the possibility of THING ONE and THING TWO and other cat-in-the-hat jokes. 19:09:37 gigamonkey: what effects did that have on writing stuff? 19:09:38 nyef: indeed! 19:09:47 I never did Logo... 19:10:04 Well, it's probably partly due to the absence of mandatory parens. 19:10:35 And the optional parens are actually square brackets half the time, leading Clojure by a good few decades. 19:10:38 So you can say `foo bar baz 1 2' and it knows how many arguments foo, bar, and baz require. 19:10:51 leo2007 [~leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:11:08 Thus they can't just use the "car-of-a-cons is evaluated in function namespace" rule of CL. 19:11:14 Oh wow, first sputter of life from lisp-matlab interface. maybe not all is lost for my ability to get stuff done on a computer. 19:11:21 i wonder if i could do shell-scripting in logo 19:11:31 But if you mean BAZ as a variable name you have to say `foo bar :baz 1 2' 19:11:47 Which is equivalent to `foo bar thing "baz 1 2' 19:11:55 davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:02 -!- kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 19:12:17 -!- fractalis [~user@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 19:12:19 gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:06 I think Logo's []'s are basically sugar for (quote ...) 19:13:12 Arglists. 19:13:13 fractalis [~user@cpe-98-27-162-52.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:23 At least, ISTR they were used for arglists. 19:13:35 sounds like M-expressions! 19:13:55 nyef: not in the book I'm reading. At least not yet. 19:13:58 Ah, okay. 19:14:00 I wonder if there's any non-trivial code out there that uses the m-exp library for CL. 19:14:19 I'd probably need to grab some books off the shelf to refresh my memory if I were to take this any further. 19:14:41 *adeht* pulls out an old 1988 Logo book 19:14:47 sykopomp: would an implementation of lisp in m-exp be sufficiently non-trivial? 19:15:01 I would think so, yes. 19:15:42 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:44 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:55 myst [~myst@178.120.0.17] has joined #lisp 19:16:02 Then I guess you could use JMC's original paper with http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/ 19:16:07 pjb: define Lisp ... 19:16:13 yeah, I thought that was where you were going with that. 19:16:26 hah 19:16:35 AIM-8 lisp :-) 19:17:22 Does minion use trivial-irc? 19:17:32 malcolm_reynolds: sbcl/matlab? 19:17:33 gigamonkey: cl-irc, I think. 19:17:40 prxq: yep 19:17:46 or a modified version of it. 19:17:57 malcolm_reynolds: cool! how does it work? 19:18:10 sykopomp: Yup, looks like. 19:18:10 FIRST/BF heh 19:18:15 well matlab has a C interface where you can send strings to be evaluated 19:18:40 and copy variables from matlab side into C side, and then you can use the MEX functionality to get to (eg) the array of doubles at the heart of a matrix 19:19:08 I kind of hate matlab but at what it's good at it's undeniably great 19:19:18 so far, so good. But sbcl has a garbage collector and isn't exactly lightweight 19:19:28 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@umass-948-209.wireless.umass.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:19:47 malcolm_reynolds: most people I know think matlab is great. I don't like it either 19:20:13 I do machine learning / computer vision and people give me a funny look when I say I don't like it. it's completely standard here 19:20:18 but I need to do some renderings in opengl 19:20:29 prxq: not as a programming language. 19:20:43 obvious way would be a C/C++ program communicating with matlab (need to render stuff to a texture and pass it back to matlab for analysis, basically) 19:20:45 malcolm_reynolds: how do you address the GC issue? 19:21:10 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:21:10 leo2007: you mean, you don't like it as a PL? 19:21:22 haha well I don't address anything yet, I've just started. but everything talks to each other because I can call (eng-open "") and the matlab splash screen pops up 19:21:43 most of the memory I deal with will be opengl textures 19:22:01 so I'm also using FFI there, and will be destroying those objects manually 19:22:09 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:22:30 I'm not sure where GC will be an issue. but, uh, I have come to realise I don't really know shit about lisp so it could all fall down at any point. 19:22:38 ow ow :-) well here is me wishing you luck 19:22:50 cool. it'll be on github when it's in any way usable 19:23:13 great 19:24:02 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:25:57 prxq: no, I don't like it. 19:26:31 it is terrible as a programming language, but I realised if you stop thinking of it as a programming language it is just about tolerable 19:26:45 consider it a matrix manipulation environment 19:26:52 jsfb_ [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:12 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@115.240.13.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:27:22 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:52 -!- jsfb_ [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:28:15 jsfb 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quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:23:28 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:33 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:24:45 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 20:24:53 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:25:03 hi 20:25:18 clbuild is pretty cool 20:25:24 prip [~foo@host175-122-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:25:38 herbieB: fe[nl]ix 20:25:40 errr 20:25:45 hey fe[nl]ix 20:25:47 hi drewc 20:25:48 clhs #+ 20:25:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 20:26:08 Ah, good. Negation is allowed. 20:26:17 herbieB: sorry 'bout that... i tab completed 'hey' instead of fe[nl]ix :) 20:28:24 drewc: I find I do that a lot with IRC clients. For some reason my fingers think it should know what I'm thinking... 20:28:43 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:00 Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 20:29:31 splittist: what's funny is that flyspell will actually complete a lot of words for me, and i use flyspell in erc... it just prefers to expand nicks over dictionary words :) 20:30:07 'hey is for horses, Henry, not people' 20:30:14 MissPiggy [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 20:31:24 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 20:31:25 :D 20:32:13 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-210-38-17.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:34 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:35 Okay, trying a threaded build now... 20:33:48 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-8-183.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:34:11 is reading from multiple threads in general ok (without locking) ? 20:34:22 freiksenet1 [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:34:30 arrays or hashes for example ? 20:34:55 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:04 Reading is typically okay unless you're also expecting to write. 20:35:14 noup 20:35:18 just read 20:35:24 ... Cannot call a fixup? Damn. :-/ 20:35:44 -!- freiksenet1 [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:56 *nyef* tries again. 20:36:05 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:37:47 malcolm_reynolds [~malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:39:37 RaceCondition pasted "slime load warning" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94263 20:39:53 But surely reading from an instance isn't very safe, one thread could be changing two or more slots but only be partially completed while a read occurs, which would not pass the ACID test 20:39:55 should I pay attention to that warning at all? 20:40:17 RaceCondition: no 20:40:28 Guthur: Is it really that risky for two threads to refer to the same -constant- data? 20:40:36 unless you are going to implement them 20:40:50 nyef what is constant there 20:40:51 stassats: great, thanks 20:40:52 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-32.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:41:06 value in the slots 20:41:07 stassats: I don't think I will :P 20:41:20 Unchanging, perhaps, rather than constant. 20:41:39 If it's not being written to, then there should be no problems with multiple access. 20:41:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:42:11 oh I was making an assumption that a write maybe happening somewhere 20:42:14 oh, and, what does cbuild dumpcore slime mean and what is monster.core useful for? 20:42:30 but if the data never changes thats different 20:42:52 RaceCondition: isn't it more fun to find out the answers your self? 20:43:26 drewc: um, like where? :P 20:43:37 RaceCondition: if you don't know what something is, you probably don't need it yet. When you find out what it is, you know where to find it 20:43:38 internet! 20:43:46 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-224-23.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:43:57 google gives doesn't give me anything understandable for "monster.core" 20:44:03 I mean, "lisp monster.core" 20:44:05 RaceCondition: in the 1000's of papers, documents, articles, manuals etc that we have all ready 20:44:07 read* 20:44:39 RaceCondition: so, maybe google is not the best source of information? Have you read, say, TFM ? 20:44:40 rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:46 saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:24 drewc: OK, which FM talks about monster.core or clbuild? 20:45:47 RaceCondition: read them all and find out 20:45:47 The clbuild manual? 20:45:53 http://www.lichteblau.com/blubba/clbuild-orig/doc/ that? 20:45:58 manuel isn't here, man. 20:45:58 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 20:46:01 -!- davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:46:21 RaceCondition: also clbuild --long-help 20:46:54 RaceCondition: also reading the clbuild source is pretty instructive 20:46:55 -!- mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Client Quit] 20:46:57 so I understand it's... um, an image of a whole running Lisp instance? 20:47:47 RaceCondition: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sbcl core 20:47:56 damn url formatting 20:48:05 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sbcl%20core 20:48:08 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:48:29 ryepup: so where should I have even realized it is SBCL related? 20:48:38 RaceCondition: in the fuckign SBCL manual 20:48:55 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 20:48:58 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lisp%20core 20:49:10 *drewc* has his S/N fixin hat on 20:49:36 what's S/N? 20:49:38 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:49:55 signal divided by noise 20:50:47 It's a ratio! 20:52:12 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:44 RaceCondition: http://lmgtfy?q=s%2Fn 20:53:21 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 20:53:28 :D 20:53:43 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 20:53:49 what?? 20:54:25 RaceCondition: the last three questions you spammed the channel with were answerable by typing them directly into google. #lisp is not your google, google is your google. 20:55:17 RaceCondition: we've put up with you thus-far, but it's time you know the rules... high signal, low noise. 20:55:58 speaking of cores, any decent tree shaker recently? 20:56:04 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:19 nus: i've heard the one in lispworks does a great job. 20:56:23 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:50 -!- prxq [~mommer@e179062045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:56:52 nus: http://jsnell.iki.fi/tmp/shake.lisp 20:56:55 *nyef* sighs. 20:57:02 Clearly, I've managed to miss a trick. 20:57:02 Xach, looking 20:57:46 Oh! I need to add pthread_getspecific to ldso_stubs, don't I? 20:58:55 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e35.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:14 Xach, nah. 21:00:34 So, if tree-shaking is removing unnecessary stuff from a core, is not putting unnecessary stuff into the core in the first place "bonsai"? 21:00:44 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:07 no, it's directed growing. 21:01:12 :-) 21:01:21 nyef: I still think your idea of 'tell the compiler what i want to include' is much better than 'walk the heap and nuke what i don't use' 21:02:12 drewc, what about combining them? 21:02:23 both methods 21:02:56 nus: how would that work exactly? 21:02:57 you tell compiler what to include by calling it in your code 21:03:04 drewc: that said, having a (require :compiler) is not very easy with SBCL 21:03:09 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has left #lisp 21:03:25 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 21:04:12 stassats: yeah, that could be... or you could tell it manually. Regardless, the idea is the opposite of the 'include everything and attempt to remove what i'm not using' 21:04:24 fe[nl]ix: we have the evaluator now, it's a start 21:04:53 stassats: the problem with a tree shaker is that, well, lisp is dynamic innit :) 21:05:17 just because the code i compiled doesn't use *foo* ... that does't mean the code i run won't. 21:05:57 so, you could include some dummy calls 21:06:16 stassats: how is this now any easier than specifing what to include? 21:06:16 -!- splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-hfstojacjslqsech] has quit [Quit: shake and bake] 21:06:29 nyef: there's random constraints on fixups in the assembler. 21:06:41 stassats: you're now specifying that it shouldn't be removed... which is pretty damn close to saying it should be included :P 21:06:46 drewc: which seems to me a little neglected. I tried the evaluator a few weeks ago and it blew up on me 21:06:47 drewc: and that would be specifying 21:07:05 DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-141-157-41-127.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:23 fe[nl]ix: that's likely... i'm not sure that anyone actually uses it :) 21:07:50 i'm just saying that you don't additional facility, because you already can do that 21:08:06 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:08:16 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-171-8.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:08:43 Guthur [~Michael@host81-159-209-176.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:54 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:59 On the upside, it survived genesis. On the downside, not by much. 21:11:30 stassats: and i'm saying i'd prefer the other approach... to me it's cleaner to have a build file that specifically includes my dependencies rather than creating a bunch of 'dummy' code to satisfy a tree shaker. 21:12:33 stassats: there is manual intervention there anyway... i prefer the explicit approach. 21:12:39 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:12:59 prxq [~mommer@e179062045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:55 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:14:13 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 21:14:33 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 21:16:37 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-74-106-69-17.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:37 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-74-106-69-17.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:16:37 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 21:19:00 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:21:24 trpr01 [~Forrest@24.121.172.254] has joined #lisp 21:21:30 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 21:23:51 has anyone seen the screencasts on http://home.in.tum.de/~lehmanna/lisp-tutorial.html? 21:24:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:26:00 etate [~cmalune@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:53 clhs boundp 21:26:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm 21:27:05 leo2007: i remember when they came out but i never watched them. 21:27:16 evening all 21:27:30 hey etate 21:27:49 @drewc: hey drew, got myself a new connection :) 21:27:58 etate: sweet! 21:28:23 @drewc: can finally procrastinate on IRC :) 21:28:37 etate: heh, welcome to the club! 21:28:48 clhs symbol-value 21:28:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm 21:29:56 Xach: thanks for that info. I am watching it at the moment. 21:30:24 ... I'm about to be annoyed by how SBCL deals with fixups on x86-64, aren't I? 21:30:48 *drewc* still needs a language lawyer 21:31:04 drewc: What are you having trouble interpreting? 21:31:29 does anyone know much about the serve-event function in SBCL ? 21:31:35 nyef: the consequences of (setf symbol-value) 21:31:39 etate: nyef would. 21:31:49 etate: enough to give you this advice : RUN! 21:31:56 minion: tell etate about iolib 21:31:57 etate: have a look at iolib: I/O(mainly networking) library containing: a BSD sockets library, a DNS resolver and an I/O multiplexer that supports select(2), epoll(4) and kqueue(2). http://www.cliki.net/iolib 21:32:12 etate: Don't go there, it'll cost 3D6 SAN points if you manage to figure it out. 21:32:18 Stick with iolib or similar. 21:32:28 drewc: What consequences? 21:33:05 nyef: whether, strictly speaking, that creates a (global) variable. 21:33:10 nyef: does it create a variable? 21:33:12 No. 21:33:16 Absolutely not. 21:33:37 nyef: why's that? I saw that it uses select, or fast-select (not sure the difference between the two?) 21:34:09 etate: The difference is that select takes bitvectors and fast-select takes integers. But it's still mind-bending and dangerous to use. 21:34:10 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-32.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:26 nyef: whys that ? 21:34:35 nyef: ok, then can you explain to me what it means for a symbol to have a binding in the global environment? 21:34:51 -!- trpr01 [~Forrest@24.121.172.254] has left #lisp 21:34:52 drewc: The only ways to create variables are defvar, defparameter, defconstant, proclaim special, lexical binding, and dynamic binding with a declare special. 21:35:38 nyef: i had previously believed that, until my recent readings 21:35:42 Some of the glossary entries around this lead to the conclusion that a symbol is a binding is required to have itself as its value at all times, etc. 21:35:58 clhs boundp 21:35:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm 21:36:10 "The function bound determines only whether a symbol has a value in the global environment; any lexical bindings are ignored." 21:36:36 this would appear to me to be contrasting the global (dynamic?) environment with the lexical one... 21:36:43 Right. 21:36:56 But it's a symbol with a binding, not necessarily a variable. 21:37:05 ok, that was my thought was well... 21:37:16 but the glossary is pretty clear on what a binding is 21:37:28 Yeah, an association between a name and a value. 21:37:49 But you only ever get a -variable- in the context of interpretation. 21:38:06 Hence 3.1.2.1.1. 21:38:10 clhs 3.1.2.1.1 21:38:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abaa.htm 21:38:34 ok, so.. 21:38:50 There's a special correspondance between a symbol value slot and the value of the symbol as a dynamic variable, but setting the value doesn't create the symbol as a variable. 21:39:17 is that a guarantee? 21:39:21 no 21:40:17 or, what does it mean to take the value of an bound non-variable.... i thought it was an error 21:40:17 nyef: is there a reason the serve-event code hasn't been replaced by something less 'mind bending and dangerous' ? 21:40:19 By a strict interpretation, a free reference to a symbol in a variable context that has not been globally proclaimed or locally declared to be special is a program error on the order of a broken lambda list declaration, invalid whatever as the CAR of a CONS to be interpreted, etc. 21:40:44 nyef: that's what i thought, is SBCL non-conformant in this regard? 21:40:47 drewc: It's not an error if you go through SYMBOL-VALUE. 21:40:56 nyef: it's not an error either way in SBCL 21:41:16 Right, I don't know that -any- lisp system throws an error for it. 21:41:20 i get an indeclared variable warning, then it happily spits out the value. 21:41:23 i want the error! 21:41:33 And this goes back to the whole "I get an error when I setq stuff at toplevel" mess. 21:42:05 etate: The reason is partly that people actually do use it, and partly a disinclination to mess with something so entrenched in the stream implementation. 21:42:20 drewc: Well, file a bug, make a patch, etc.! 21:42:28 all i want to be able to do is this : (setf (symbol-value 'foo) t) (defun foo () (symbol-value 'foo)) 21:42:47 You can do that now. 21:42:49 what i don't want is for free references to FOO to now resolve to t 21:42:51 Ahh. 21:42:56 That's a little trickier. 21:43:11 Am i correct in that most lisps are non-conformant here? 21:43:18 That is my belief, yes. 21:43:37 drewc: they're still conformant, since you're in undefined land, no? 21:43:42 it's either that, or SETQ creates variables... yes? 21:43:50 pkhuong: no, it's defined as an error 21:44:04 taking the value of an undeclared variable is a program error 21:44:23 i'm not using SETQ here, where the argument could be made 21:44:25 Well, technically, you're attempting to evaluate something which is not a form. 21:45:04 ok, now for the question that matters... 21:45:13 EVAL is required to take a form as argument. 21:45:37 ... Of course, EVAL is also not permitted to error. 21:46:03 kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:21 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:46:26 would anybody think me wrong if i used the symbol-value slot to store a value which is retrieved by a function that lives in the symbol-function slot of the same symbol, as i did above? 21:47:05 ... Not entirely, though I'd wonder why you didn't just use a closure. 21:47:28 i need DEFVAR-like behavior.. if the symbol is bound don't rebind it 21:48:05 How about if the symbol is bound, rebind it to the present value? 21:48:16 A quick load-time-value should cover that. 21:48:51 that will work too.. how do i make that work? l-t-v is still a dark spot to me :) 21:48:54 Hrm... Unless compilation-unit semantics get in the way... 21:49:14 see... i really liked using the symbol-value! 21:49:21 it just seems like the right thing to do. 21:49:27 (let ((foo (load-time-value (if (fboundp 'foo) foo 0)))) (defun foo () foo)) ? 21:49:33 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:41 Or something in that direction, at least. 21:49:41 nyef: the only reference i can find for streams in the serve-event code seems to be to print-object a 'handler' (file-descriptor structure), and in stream.lisp there doesnt seem to be a reference to it. Do you mean by 'is intrenched in the stream implementation', that it deals with fd-streams? 21:49:43 of course! 21:49:58 etate: Yes. 21:50:00 nyef: i was all caught up on checking if the value is bound, i never thought about the function. 21:50:06 etate: And there's wait-until-fd-usable. 21:50:10 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:27 -!- dr_df0 [~maja@host-108-51.derby.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:50:30 nyef: yeah i thought that looked kinda scary 21:50:30 drewc: Well, if your function is the only way to read the value...? 21:50:39 nyef: it is 21:51:04 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:51:06 the function is really just a variable, but CL doesn't offer the kind of variable i want. 21:51:29 ... "kind" of variable? 21:51:29 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177151060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:52 nyef: yes, global lexical constant-ish 21:52:09 while watching those videos, I noticed that the compiler notes can be in a pop-up buffer. any idea how to configure slime to do that? 21:52:23 -!- prxq [~mommer@e179062045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:52:34 leo2007: i don't know how to configure slime _not_ to do that! :P 21:52:46 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:52:57 (wait.. what does pop-up buffer mean?) 21:53:44 at the comment the compiler notes messages are printed on the repl buffer. 21:54:02 it's in the *SLIME Compilation* buffer 21:54:06 but on that video, it is placed in a buffer called *slime notes* 21:54:20 Bah, the web sucks so much. 21:54:40 Whoo! It lives! MOV, LEA, bah. 21:55:12 If this survives its full build, would someone mind checking to see if it can build on OSX/x86-64? 21:55:34 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has joined #lisp 21:55:34 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.69.61] has quit [Changing host] 21:55:34 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 21:55:55 Is there any reason to prefer cl-irc over trivial-irc or vice versa? 21:55:57 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:56:21 For, say, writing a bot that is going to communicate via IRC? 21:56:34 stassats: that too. 21:57:16 gigamonkey: there's a trivial-irc? 21:57:23 is that meme ever going to go away? 21:58:02 Heh. Based on this http://code.google.com/p/trivial-irc/, it's probably pretty unfinished. I think cl-irc is the way to go. 21:58:08 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:58:09 gigamonkey: yeah. 21:58:33 it says that trivial-irc doesn't do CTCP, for one, which isn't hyper-ideal 21:58:41 Okay, would someone with an x86-64 OS X system mind building from http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/no-x86oid-assem.S with threading support and letting me know how it goes? 21:58:45 might wanna use ctcp action and stuff 21:58:56 (which is really easy to emulate. and still) (: 21:59:36 nyef: do you have the clone url handy? 21:59:49 nyef: Might that fix affect linux-x86-64 too? I've been having some weird lost gc invariant crashes in standalone executables. 22:00:00 nyef: Tricky to reproduce though. :( 22:00:04 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:00:08 ah, got it. git://repo.or.cz/sbcl/nyef.git 22:00:23 redline6561: It's not a fix, it's an attempt to reduce the build dependencies. 22:00:39 nyef: Noted. Thanks. 22:00:57 *nyef* is going to have to set up a FreeBSD VM soon. 22:01:11 (Well, maybe not -have to-, but...) 22:01:46 antifuchs: what's CTCP? 22:02:07 gigamonkey: client to client protocol IIRC 22:02:13 minion: what does CTCP stand for? 22:02:14 Catalogue Thieveless Croquette Putresce 22:02:22 oh, well i was close 22:02:24 *antifuchs* is make.sh'ing 22:02:25 Is that for private messages? 22:02:30 gigamonkey: nope 22:02:31 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:34 Oh well. 22:02:39 antifuchs: Did you enable threading? 22:02:42 it's just a regular private message with ^A pre- and appended 22:02:54 nyef: good call. not yet. 22:02:59 Hmmm. cl-irc would be cooler if it compiled. 22:03:00 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-173-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:11 Admittedly, building without threading would also be a good smoke test. 22:03:19 gigamonkey: it can be used for private messages 22:03:22 I've been pretty happy with cl-irc 22:03:33 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:03:44 gigamonkey: you use it for things like CTCP ACTION (/me) 22:04:38 if you want the full story, what amounts to the ctcp spec was written by the guy who did (what I believe is) the first emacs irc client (: 22:04:57 Or "CTCP VERSION hey, look at this URL which will exploit your computer to spam people on IRC!" 22:04:59 gigamonkey: try /dcc chat : that's a direct private conversation 22:05:03 Hmmm. cl-irc refers to flexi-streams:flexi-stream-encoding-error which doesn't exist in my flexi-streams library. Is my FS too old or too new? 22:05:10 "HipHop for PHP isn't technically a compiler itself. Rather it is a source code transformer. HipHop programmatically transforms your PHP source code into highly optimized C++" 22:05:15 gigamonkey: too new, I think 22:05:21 Bah. 22:05:22 ummm.... can you define compiler for me facebook? 22:05:35 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:51 gigamonkey: that's fixed in the SVN trunk 22:05:56 drewc: hah, isn't it great that they reduce php to the level of cpp in their description? (: 22:06:01 -!- sayyestolife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 22:06:01 fe[nl]ix: of cl-irc? 22:06:09 yes 22:06:13 nyef: I get a lot of deprecation warnings on 10.6 22:06:25 it's a compfuscator! 22:06:57 antifuchs: Deprecation warnings? To do with the ASMRTN_ constants or something else? 22:07:01 ah, that's for grovel-headers 22:07:14 I can paste my terminal scrollback when it's done 22:07:44 Not worried about grovel-headers or runtime damage, so long as it compiles. 22:09:20 happily working on the compiler now. 22:09:38 If it's going to choke, it'll be at or just after second genesis. 22:09:51 fe[nl]ix: that fixed it; thanks. 22:10:01 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:10:02 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 22:11:03 hahah... definition of compiler from wikipedia : :A compiler is a computer program (or set of programs) that transforms source code written in a computer language (the source language) into another computer language" 22:11:11 *nyef* ponders GNAME(current_thread)@TPOFF(%rax), and how it might be possible to convert it to something representable in an assembler-routine. 22:11:25 ok facebook.... feel my nerd wrath.. i'm posting a comment to reddit! 22:11:38 drewc: that's going to show them 22:12:04 take that! http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ax7k4/facebooks_hiphop_for_php_programmatically/c0jvgz1 22:12:05 contrib tests now 22:12:27 it fails on sb-posix, just like the current mainline does. 22:12:30 Ooh! Extra bonus: Less darwin-specific conditionalization. 22:12:34 it finished building, though. 22:12:37 Thank you. 22:12:45 drewc: the definition sounds alright to me 22:12:49 oh 22:12:54 i see what you have done there :) 22:12:55 Oh, is that threaded or non-threaded? 22:13:09 nyef: that was threaded. I'm building unthreaded now. 22:13:19 unthreaded won't break if threaded didn't break. 22:13:20 it's only 10min 22:13:31 let's test that hypothesis, then (-: 22:13:44 I really need to fix sb-posix on 64bit darwin one of these days 22:13:47 Since the difference is about four assembly instructions in assembly/x86-64/assem-rtns.lisp. 22:13:55 varjag: tell that to facebook.. they seem to think that a) php is a decent language and b) source transformation and compliation are different things. 22:14:03 mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:05 Hey, there was something recently about backtrace on internal errors on darwin. 22:14:07 I talked to an ex-facebooker 22:14:16 gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:21 Woohoo! 22:14:23 they have all kinds of weird performance rites that they (heh) perform. 22:15:02 for example, he was telling me that ++i is much faster than i++. 22:15:13 -!- gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 22:15:25 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikatc] 22:15:30 antifuchs: that depends on what "i" is 22:15:55 (and SSCness..) 22:15:58 gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:59 I don't really care (: 22:16:05 just thought it's funny (: 22:16:21 o hai, gigabot! 22:16:26 antifuchs: _much_ faster? as in noticably? that's is funny 22:16:34 gigamonkey: the mind upload went well, I see. 22:16:40 it's so fast it actually completes an infinite loop! 22:16:42 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:50 antifuchs: gigabot isn't hooked up to anything yet. But soon. 22:16:54 drewc: according to his claims, measurably. 22:17:02 gigamonkey: what would it do? 22:17:06 hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:18 stassats: hang on. Let's see if I can get it working and then I'll show you. 22:17:19 antifuchs: i'll keep that in mind next time i'm telling a php kid why php is for kids 22:17:29 gigamonkey: last time I wrote some bot thingy I experimented with pattern matching 22:17:49 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 22:17:49 gigamonkey: one million _robotic_ primates! 22:17:57 drewc: yeah. I get /why/ this is (one fewer state to keep around), but still. if this matters, you're still using php. there is an elephant in the room. 22:17:58 gigamonkey: you wrote an AIML implementation, so I suppose you're doing that as well :) 22:18:32 I suppose facebook managed to address the elephant issue without having to cope with all the free space (: 22:18:55 antifuchs: yeah, i can concieve of an implementation swhere it makes sense that way... especially in a pure interpreter 22:19:01 -!- etate [~cmalune@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:19:24 antifuchs: they've just changed what they feed the elephant, so he doesn't smell as bad. 22:19:27 stuff like (defmethod bot-command-table append ((bot googlebot)) '(((google :term) google-link))) 22:19:27 22:19:35 drewc: a performance difference is unforgivable in a compiler 22:19:41 is it twitter that's migrating their stuff to scala? 22:19:57 antifuchs: agreed, of course. 22:20:05 Fade: their stuff has been on scala for a long time now 22:20:05 Fade: yeah that dude writing a Scala book is their lead programmer or somethign 22:20:14 beginning of 2009 at least. 22:20:19 ah 22:20:26 twitter still can't do email 22:20:51 as opposed to various moms. 22:20:52 i don't think the languages these shops use are particularly to blame. 22:20:55 I must have gone through the 'please reset my password!' rigmarole twenty times. 22:21:06 -!- ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:19 engineers that would _choose_ to use php.. that' 22:21:23 s the real problem 22:21:28 Fade: check your spamassassin setup (: 22:21:44 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-4831.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 22:21:45 oh, dspam, but yeah. I sifted through the transport logs. :) 22:21:47 no connection. 22:21:48 even if you switch languages, you're still stuck with the engineers who made the shoddy decisions in the first place. 22:22:03 nyef: hypothesis confirmed. unthreaded build built fine. 22:22:07 drewc: that's depressing ;_; 22:22:10 antifuchs: Thank you. 22:22:31 you're welcome 22:22:35 sykopomp: good developers can write good code in bad languages.... the converse is true as well 22:22:41 managing the code base as facebook must be a very daunting task. 22:22:50 Hello, world! 22:22:51 I can't really think of a good way to do it. 22:23:20 gigabot: tell me about that-deady-sexy-book :P 22:23:34 gigamonkey: gotta train it better! :) 22:23:40 drewc: sorry, gigabot's still a baby. 22:24:35 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:24:39 deady-sexy, hm? 22:24:54 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-4831.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:25:40 man... sometimes you'd think i'm an ESL student. coffee usually fixes that... 22:25:47 ... Ugh. No fnsave or frstor instructions? 22:25:58 drewc: we recently had a major heisenbug at work. The problem turned out to be that PHP's ints overflow instead of bignumming. 22:26:02 *sykopomp* cries. 22:26:55 sykopomp: there are people who wouldn't call this a bug (: 22:26:55 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:27:11 antifuchs: the problems it caused certainly were :\ 22:27:22 hee hee 22:27:35 -!- gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:27:37 sykopomp: i noticed that recently, php added closures... so i looked up the syntax and cried ... you have to specify which variables it's going to capture..... 22:27:53 haha 22:27:53 drewc: that's not very odd for PHP, though. 22:28:01 you have to specify which globals you want access to, inside your function, as well. 22:28:02 drewc: That actually makes a certain amount of sense in the context of having no compiler worth mentioning. 22:28:06 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.178.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:28:07 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-97.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 22:28:11 or you can do $GLOBALS['name_of_global']; 22:28:26 Heh. "Oh, look, it's SYMBOL-VALUE by any other name." 22:28:49 it treats strings as symbols :P 22:28:51 sykopomp: in python too 22:28:52 so yes 22:29:10 stassats: I thought you could access global variables in python by simply accessing them. 22:29:12 -!- hf67 [~user@talula.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:29:15 nyef: indeed.. it's the laziest possible way to tack on another poorly thought-out feature 22:29:26 (by name) 22:29:36 sykopomp: but you need to do "global var" if you are assigning them 22:29:42 oh 22:29:43 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:29:50 that's kinda ucky. 22:29:55 anecdote: the most common error in my lab this afternoon was expecting Java's m/n to return some close approximation to the mathematical value of m/n 22:29:55 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:30:03 i've stumped on this couple of days ago 22:30:06 oh oh, I have one pretty retarded one 22:30:10 where to find help on those #+ #-? 22:30:17 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 22:30:18 in CL, dynamic variables and lexical variables are accessed the same way 22:30:18 clhs #+ 22:30:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 22:30:19 >:D 22:30:22 *sykopomp* 22:30:32 sykopomp: i agree, that is a horrible design mistake 22:30:41 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:30:50 but we have earmuffs! 22:30:50 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-14-161.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Classes have started again.] 22:30:52 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:01 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:31:20 the earmuffs do deal with the problem, so long as the convention os obeyed. 22:31:21 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:31:26 are complex lambda lists a design mistake too? 22:31:32 -!- MissPiggy [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:31:39 MissPiggy [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 22:31:43 drewc: I'm reading LiSP right now. I should probably reread that bit, but it seemed to hint that separating dynamic variables into a separate namespace might make things slower because of an extra indirection (then again, we have compilers...) 22:31:48 stassats: that does not show up in hyperspec (slime-documentation-lookup). 22:31:53 I mean, dear god, you practically have to *parse* the things. So complex! 22:32:04 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:32:04 hefner: i like complex lambda lists 22:32:11 hefner: i hate parsing them though 22:32:16 sykopomp: extra indirection compared to what, and how? 22:32:24 leo2007: that would be hyperspec-lookup-reader-macro 22:32:31 or C-c C-d # 22:33:02 stassats: earmuffs are a hack... i would much prefer dynamic variables live in their own namespace 22:33:10 pkhuong: from what I understood, I think it was trying to say that doing (dynamic 'foo) versus just evaluating foo (if it's been (declare (special foo))) was a significant overhead. 22:33:19 sykopomp: no 22:33:34 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:33:43 yeah, I don't see it either ;\ 22:33:43 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:53 stassats: indeed, thanks. 22:34:01 sykopomp: you still have to access the dynamic environement somehow in both cases... 22:34:10 yeah 22:35:22 drewc: dynamic variables already do live in their own namespace 22:35:25 nobody is goign to argue that special variables are a good design, are they? they are a backwards compatability hack... CL would never have made it out the door if older dynamically scoped lisp code didn't run 22:35:46 tcr: not an explicit one 22:35:52 drewc: specials are useful. It's the lack of lexical globals that's more painful. 22:36:09 gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:11 pkhuong: is it specials that are useful, or dynamically scoped values? 22:36:17 Oh. Here's a nice quote from LiSP, when it's discussing 'problems' with lisp-2: "Other more pragmatic considerations comparing Lisp1 and Lisp2 are connected to readability, according to [GP88]. Surely experienced Lisp programmers avoid writing this kind of code: (defun foo (list) (list list) )" 22:36:21 pkhuong: You mean, the lack of the ability to lexically shadow a named constant? 22:36:30 *hefner* wants guaranteed thread-local variables. you can fake it with specials, but it's a problem for libraries that can't control the environment they're called in. 22:36:46 pkhuong: what is a use case for special variables that is not covered by the design of dynamic vars in ISLISP? 22:37:03 drewc: what's are the differences? 22:37:08 (besides running LISP 1.5 code unchanged) 22:37:08 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:12 pkhuong: 'cause that should be possible, "just" (setf symbol-value), then (define-symbol-macro ... (symbol-value ...)), which will then be shadowed by any lexical binding. 22:37:17 hefner: I suggested a thread-local-value special form in an sbcl LP entry :-) 22:37:38 hefner: how would you expect them to work? 22:37:40 hefner: no open source fairy seems to take care of it though :-/ 22:37:52 -!- mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:37:58 like defglobal (no lexical shadowing), or more like global lexical variables? 22:37:59 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:37:59 pkhuong: ISLISP does not conflate lexical and dynamic variables... there is dynamic-let and (DYNAMIC foo) vs LET and FOO 22:38:00 (Global lexicals. Hmph!) 22:38:23 drewc: yeah, sure. Or earmuffs. I don't really care. 22:38:27 drewc: I agree that that is more elegant. Though I'd probably make *foo* a reader macro :-) 22:38:28 drewc, does (dynamic foo) evaluate 'foo ? 22:38:34 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:34 tcr: exactly 22:38:40 saikatc [~saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:49 Adlai: no 22:38:54 Explicit dynamic lookups and bindings aren't hard to work with either. 22:39:04 Adlai: it's a namespace, like FUNCTION 22:39:22 *drewc* uses DEFDYNAMIC from Contextl for most uses of dynamic scope 22:39:24 ok. very different from symbol-value. 22:39:30 *nyef* attempts to figure out how to abuse the genesis code-object fixup machinery to patch fdefinition objects. 22:39:33 pkhuong: and a symbol-macro can probable make life easier if you start using them a lot. 22:39:42 Adlai: you also have DYNAMIC-SYMBOL-VALUE 22:39:50 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:01 ... Damn, more complicated than I thought. :-/ 22:40:11 drewc, ok, so they're still a bit "dynamic" :) 22:40:43 sykopomp: symbol-macros are not lexical variables 22:40:53 *Xach* wants SYMBOL-VALUE-IN-CANADA 22:41:04 tcr: But they can be shadowed by lexical variables, can they not? 22:41:08 *Adlai* wants compiler-macrolet 22:41:09 or maybe SYMBOL-VALUES-SLIGHTLY-LOWER-IN-CANADA 22:41:25 nyef: sure, still they're different things 22:41:52 sykopomp: I don't care specifically how it would work. One way would be a special variable that automatically gets a fresh binding in new threads. 22:42:08 or just a thread-local global lexical 22:42:16 (okay, not global) 22:42:42 tcr: i do actually have code that does (defdynamic foo) (define-symbol-macro *foo* (dynamic foo)) .. but only because the code used to use a normal spacial and i have not changed all the call sites 22:43:15 special* 22:43:26 what does defdynamic do? 22:43:49 defines a contextl dynamic variable 22:44:09 -!- milanj [~milan@93.87.248.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44:14 what's the difference between a contextl dynamic var and a regular one? separate namespaces? 22:44:19 tcr: defines a dynamic variable :) 22:44:29 how? 22:44:50 I guess it uses a gensym as backing store? 22:44:50 (tcr it creates a struct that itself has a symbol in one of it's slots. 22:44:53 http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=closer-contextl;a=headblob;f=/cx-dynamic-variables.lisp 22:44:53 more likely to explode due to weird MOP bugs and misunderstandings of how dynamic-extent works? 22:45:06 hefner: :-D 22:45:15 hefner, this part of contextl actually doesn't use the MOP, and can be loaded independantly of the rest of contextl 22:45:19 I love your sarcasm 22:45:20 tcr: yeah, and them progv's it in dynamic-let basically 22:45:44 tcr: and dynamic-let is of course DYNAMIC-WIND'ed 22:45:49 hefner: Btw. I really think you should have used an animated png in your mcpixel blog posting :-) 22:45:59 so you can capture the dynamic environment 22:46:01 what are the near standard tools for CL? 22:46:19 leo2007: emacs and slime 22:46:22 tcr: I did sneak an animated GIF in there, as an update. Path of least resistance, thanks to Skippy. 22:46:37 leo2007: brain 22:47:03 -!- gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:47:04 hefner: Oh then I'm probably betrayed by browser cache? 22:47:42 Adlai: the rest of Contextl doesn't actually require the mop either... it's just an implementation detail really. See ContextScheme for a mop and clos-free version 22:47:43 -!- gibsonf1` [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:46 tcr: maybe the image is just so tiny you don't even see it. http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/turtle.gif 22:47:54 gibsonf1` [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:21 hefner: Well I'd have love to see it showing "Realtime animated preview plays while you work." 22:48:22 hefner: i dug the animated .gif, thanks for the smile :) 22:48:30 drewc, maybe later, I'm dead tired now (didn't even get to looking at CCL windows options) 22:48:38 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:48:41 hefner: but I just realized that small preview icon on the right bottom corner 22:48:59 tcr: oh. great idea. I was concerned about the screenshot not conveying that, but an animated one didn't occur to me. 22:49:03 clhs select-if 22:49:04 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for select-if. 22:49:04 drewc: that's definitely recommended in norvig's good style lisp programming. What about cl packages? 22:49:06 Hrm... 22:49:24 leo2007: what about them... always use packages. 22:49:30 nyef: remove-if-not? 22:49:36 Ah! Thank you. 22:50:00 drewc: I mean, are there any near standard packages? 22:50:24 minion, packages for leo2007 22:50:24 leo2007: look at packages: http://weitz.de/packages.html http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html http://flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 22:50:31 primarily the first link 22:50:34 leo2007: no, the ANSI commitee is no longer working on a standard, so the only standard packages are CL-USER and CL 22:50:46 drewc: KEYWORD. 22:50:50 oh, 22:50:53 and KEYWORD 22:51:03 i knew there was another! 22:51:25 leo2007: stuff like gray streams and mop.. further away there's alexandria 22:51:29 Some lisp systems have the amusing feature that the KEYWORD package has the empty string as an alias. 22:51:38 smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:54 nyef: well, technically .. :) 22:52:28 somewhat surprisingly, there are irregularities lurking 22:52:30 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:31 ||:foo <--- doesn't work in SBCL :( 22:52:44 for example :foo valid keyword syntax, but ::foo is not 22:53:15 drewc: after (defpackage ""), '||::foo works fine 22:53:16 Krystof: in a lambda-list you mean? 22:53:16 -!- Hun [~hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:21 drewc: no, in general 22:53:28 ::foo is not valid CL syntax 22:53:32 drewc: heh.. I tried '||::foo (after defining a package with name "") and it worked 22:53:39 *_deepfire* is works on a portable RUN-PROGRAM 22:53:50 then tried (export '||::foo) .. seems stuck on an infinite loop 22:53:51 (defpackage ":" (:export woot)) ::woot 22:53:51 <_deepfire> er, s/is // 22:53:56 Krystof: i didn't know that.. is there a reason or is it just one of those things? 22:53:59 *nyef* tries to move undefined_tramp from x86-64-assem.S to assem-rtns.lisp. 22:54:17 adeht: there's a current bug lurking in packages, to do with locks 22:54:24 oh, well hefner just gave a reasonable reason :) 22:54:29 drewc: can't remember. It's about token syntax 22:54:35 <_deepfire> Currently I'm #+-ing my way through sbcl's run-program.lisp to make it work on ECL 22:54:42 hefner's is something that I haven't even thought about. Does it actually work? 22:54:56 clhs 2.3.5 22:54:56 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:54:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm 22:54:57 no, returns a keyword 22:55:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 22:55:04 _deepfire: why are you not using the existing portable run-program? 22:55:26 <_deepfire> drewc, can you point me to one? 22:55:28 hefner's example would presumably work if you escaped the first colon. 22:55:30 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:55:35 it does 22:55:39 minion: tell _deepfire about trivial-shell 22:55:40 _deepfire: please look at trivial-shell: Trivial shell is a simple platform independent interface to the underlying Operating System. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-shell 22:55:53 oh, neat. 22:56:16 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-74-106-123-68.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:16 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-74-106-123-68.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:56:16 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 22:56:26 adeht: thanks 22:56:50 ... Bwah? The terminal tab that I was building SBCL in just up and vanished. 22:57:06 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:57:09 ahh, so :: is explicitly undefined 22:57:29 nyef: som nam na! use xterm next time. 22:57:36 davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:38 hrm, so is 'foo:' ... 22:57:43 <_deepfire> drewc, it's a portability layer 22:58:11 _deepfire: sorry? 22:58:14 <_deepfire> drewc, I want to make a portable implementation of RUN-PROGRAM, not a strap-on 22:58:27 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-252-151.vodafone.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 22:58:30 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:58:31 _deepfire: well, that's impossible! 22:58:36 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-74-106-123-68.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:36 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-74-106-123-68.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:58:36 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 22:58:45 _deepfire: a lisp-powered strap-on is intriguing, though. 22:59:04 well, depends what you mean by 'portable', but you can't do it in ANSI. 22:59:18 a portable solution would look a lot like the code in TRIVIAL-SHELL 22:59:19 drewc: "fits in your purse" 22:59:25 btw Gray streams.. a year ago or so I wondered why it doesn't provide a stream-file-length generic function (I couldn't use an in-memory flexi-stream as a file stream or something.. ended up adding it to SBCL) 22:59:42 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:59:42 I don't think I found any explanation for the omission 22:59:43 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 23:00:28 <_deepfire> drewc, first, trivial shell's API is incomplete -- it doesn't expose asynchronous execution, nor it does expose processes 23:00:44 _deepfire: note "trivial" 23:00:50 minion: tell _deepfire about iolib 23:00:51 _deepfire: have a look at iolib: I/O(mainly networking) library containing: a BSD sockets library, a DNS resolver and an I/O multiplexer that supports select(2), epoll(4) and kqueue(2). http://www.cliki.net/iolib 23:01:15 <_deepfire> drewc, do you mean that iolib has an implementation of a more complete run-program? 23:01:16 minion: tell _deepfire about osicate 23:01:17 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``osicate''. 23:01:26 minion: tell _deepfire about osicat 23:01:27 _deepfire: look at osicat: Operating system interface library mainly for Unix. http://www.cliki.net/osicat 23:01:36 <_deepfire> Wtf is with you throwing various unrelated stuff at me? 23:01:49 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: schoppenhauer] 23:01:58 _deepfire: ok, fuck you then.. re-invent the wheel all you want! 23:03:07 I'd settle for a good implementation of run-program that worked on *one* lisp 23:03:29 <_deepfire> hefner, SBCL's and CCL's are most complete and /almost/ API-compatible 23:03:54 minion: external-program 23:03:55 external-program: Another one of the Compatibility Layers for executing other OS processes. http://www.cliki.net/external-program 23:04:06 <_deepfire> sellout, I saw that one too 23:04:11 minion: trivial-shell 23:04:11 trivial-shell: Trivial shell is a simple platform independent interface to the underlying Operating System. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-shell 23:04:25 *sellout* wrote that one, but don't remember how complete it is or anything. 23:04:42 _deepfire: do they actually work 100%? I've never tried CCL's. I (probably) unfairly distrust SBCL's due to its presumed ancestor in CMUCL being a piece of crap, and having some stability problems (since fixed) with it a year or so ago. 23:05:03 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-32.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 23:05:41 <_deepfire> hefner, it's heavily used in desire and I don't remember having problems with it 23:06:27 *hefner* lowered expectations are further by encountering deadlock problems with ECL's run-program, which thankfully can be worked around 23:06:50 heyhey [~4f91f0b6@gateway/web/freenode/x-svkjtqvsrkphrhkd] has joined #lisp 23:06:54 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-087-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:21 *nyef* would like to see a run-program interface that interacts well with ptrace. 23:07:52 <_deepfire> My more crazier idea is to get people to drop their implementations of run-program and comaintain the portable version. 23:08:16 you keep using that word 23:08:37 <_deepfire> drewc, whatever, you understand what I mean 23:09:19 <_deepfire> drewc, the idea is to reduce code duplication and increase the eyeball/line-of-code ratio 23:10:21 -!- gigamonkey is now known as gigabot` 23:10:26 -!- gigabot` is now known as gigamonkey 23:10:29 <_deepfire> Currently, the most controversial issue, AIUI, is the SIGCHLD-based passing of stream output to the :output stream provided by the user. 23:10:33 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:10:50 <_deepfire> juanjo, for example, doesn't like it 23:10:57 Hmmm. I've quit my bot yet IRC still thinks I'm connected. Or the nick is in use. Is there a timeout? 23:11:08 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 23:11:32 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:11:51 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-14-132.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:12:18 gigamonkey: Did quitting your bot close the socket? 23:12:47 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:13:43 gigabot [~gigabot@adsl-99-184-207-14.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:26 nyef: Dunno. Maybe I called the wrong cl-irc function. 23:14:38 Well, an lsof would tell you. 23:14:58 I quit Lisp and by the time I got restarted I could get back in. Either because the socket was closed or because whatever timeout/information propogation delay had passed. 23:15:09 Anyway, gigabot is here and is mildly functional. 23:15:17 gigabot: Hello. 23:15:17 Hello. 23:15:21 Well, quitting the lisp would close the socket, yes. 23:15:31 And it's not a host socket, so SO_REUSEADDR doesn't come into play. 23:15:33 drewc: ask him what you asked before. 23:15:47 gigabot: tell me about that-dead-sexy-book? 23:15:47 Practical Common Lisp is the sexiest book I know of. 23:15:53 gigamonkey: sweet! 23:15:55 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DE54.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:16:23 gigabot: Tell me about SBCL? 23:16:23 Sorry , I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:16:39 ... Either too much space, or too little name. 23:16:50 gigamonkey: Cool, though. 23:17:31 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:07 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:18:14 gigabot: tell me about sbcl 23:18:15 SBCL is a fantastic Common Lisp implementation 23:18:57 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:19:18 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:19:34 nyef: yeah, an extra space. 23:19:39 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:19:50 gigabot: Tell me about extra whitespace? 23:19:51 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:19:59 Heh. 23:20:05 So, what are you planning for gigabot? 23:20:10 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:20:24 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 23:20:24 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 23:21:08 nyef: Well, for the biobike project they want some kind of crazy AI help system but they don't have a budget for any real AI reseachers. 23:21:22 So they've got me hacking around with this. 23:21:38 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:40 And I may try to make a Lisp FAQ bot. 23:21:42 gigamonkey: cool, are you playing with AIML at all? 23:21:48 That's what this is. 23:21:54 Oh. And here I was thinking that you were going to put together a bot to pester #lisp for programming help in making an AI system... 23:21:54 brilliant 23:22:01 Modulo, I don't use that grotty XML except to import the ALICE files. 23:22:10 of course 23:22:14 stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 23:22:29 -!- kgn [~kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:22:47 I may ask the denizens of #lisp to help me fill out his knowledgebase by asking him questions. 23:23:05 But first I need to implement something to log the questions he doesn't understand. 23:23:13 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:23:30 Okay, getting closer with this undefined-tramp stuff. Maybe this build will survive genesis. 23:24:13 How much computational linguistics stuff will be going into this? 23:25:43 Not much at all. AIML is a very simple pattern matching system. 23:25:53 What year did SBCL fork from CMUCL? 23:26:03 '99, wasn't it? 23:26:17 Or maybe '98, but the first release would have been late '99. 23:26:22 didn't the tenth anniversary just pass? 23:26:50 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:43 gigabot: when did SBCL fork from CMUCL 23:27:43 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:27:46 Doh! 23:28:27 gigabot: when did SBCL fork from CMUCL 23:28:27 1999 23:28:47 gigamonkey: i would be overjoyed to help fill gigabot's brain, as long as we get to keep it here too :) 23:29:12 gigamonkey pasted "gigabot's brain at the moment" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94272 23:29:26 drewc: where else would he live? 23:29:50 Though I could also make a web version. 23:29:59 here goes our SNR 23:30:11 gigamonkey: i don't know, i figure you may have had grander plans :) 23:30:21 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 23:30:26 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:30:32 gigamonkey: right, make sure it can talk over /msg 23:30:39 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:40 Step 1. #lisp Step 2. The World !!!! 23:30:45 drewc: of course. 23:30:52 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:31:21 so someone can teach him profanities 23:32:04 heh... it should probably only learn from a list of authorized teachers :P 23:32:16 drewc: yes. 23:33:06 that would be gavino, younder, ... 23:33:33 xah, don't forget xah 23:33:39 -!- paolo [~chatzilla@93-34-184-178.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 23:34:09 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:22 gigamonkey: will you be making the source available? I've always wanted to play with an AIML bot. 23:35:04 *stassats* thinks how one can make it to output code as answers 23:36:03 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 23:36:13 here's a pattern to match - Question: "What's the function to a ?", Answer: "" 23:36:28 sounds like a job for regex. 23:36:30 drewc: Yeah, probably. 23:36:36 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:45 sykopomp: now you have two problems 23:36:58 stassats: one of them is clearly that I'm not using regex! 23:37:26 gigabot: what's the function to frob a fribitz? 23:37:27 frob 23:37:46 should be frob-fribitz non? 23:37:49 gigabot: what's the function to reverse a list? 23:37:49 REVERSE 23:38:10 Could also be -. 23:38:19 gigabot: what's the function to upcase a string? 23:38:19 UPCASE 23:38:22 gigabot: what's the function to copy a list? 23:38:23 COPY 23:39:03 gigabot: what's the function to upcase a string? 23:39:04 Quite probably UPCASE or maybe STRING-UPCASE 23:39:08 Here's another: "How do I get the of a ?" ---> "-" :) 23:39:23 gigabot: how do I get the name of a package? 23:39:23 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:39:51 these would even be reasonable replies, if it checks to make sure the symbol actually exists and is fbound in CL 23:39:56 gigabot: how do I get the name of a symbol? 23:39:56 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:40:09 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 23:40:27 gigabot: what is the best programming language? 23:40:27 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:40:34 Now, the bets are open. When will gigabot be smarter than minion? 23:40:37 gigabot: how do I get the name of a package? 23:40:38 Quite likely PACKAGE-NAME 23:40:54 nice :) 23:40:55 gigabot: how do I get the name of a symbol? 23:40:56 Quite likely SYMBOL-NAME 23:41:10 gigabot: How do I find the name of a symbol? 23:41:10 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:41:14 gigabot: How do I obtain the name of a symbol? 23:41:14 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:41:17 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:41:22 gigabot: How do I grab the name of a symbol? 23:41:22 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:41:24 gigabot: how do I get the sine of a number? 23:41:25 Quite likely NUMBER-SINE 23:41:31 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:17 gigabot: how do i get the first item in a list? 23:42:17 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:42:27 how do I get the sine of a number? 23:42:31 gigabot: how do I get the sine of a number? 23:42:31 Quite likely NUMBER-SINE or maybe just sine 23:43:06 gigabot: how do I define a function? 23:43:06 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:43:36 gigabot: How do I grab the name of a symbol? 23:43:37 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:43:39 Bah. 23:43:47 gigabot: How do I grab the name of a symbol? 23:43:47 Quite likely SYMBOL-NAME or maybe just NAME 23:43:59 (Forgot to recompile his brain.) 23:44:06 gigabot: How do I discover the name of a symbol? 23:44:06 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:44:12 gigabot: How do I grab the char-p of a digit? 23:44:12 Quite likely DIGIT-CHAR P or maybe just CHAR P 23:44:32 gigabot: How do I find the magnitude of a character as a digit? 23:44:32 Quite likely CHARACTER AS A DIGIT-MAGNITUDE or maybe just MAGNITUDE 23:44:52 gigabot: How do I convert a character into a number? 23:44:52 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:45:15 gigabot: how do I get the number of a sine? 23:45:15 Quite likely SINE-NUMBER or maybe just NUMBER 23:46:14 *drewc* pictures gigamonkey frantically mechanical turk-ing! 23:47:06 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:47:11 gigabot: How do I grab the #.(time) of a foobar? 23:47:11 he has a billion of monkeys for that 23:47:11 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:47:11 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:47:30 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:47:41 Well, this is what AIML is pretty good at. You either add new answers or you add patterns to translate questions you don't understand into ones you do. 23:47:45 MissPiggy: nice try. 23:48:15 Though I don't know why he answered twice. 23:48:16 <_deepfire> MissPiggy, interesting questions you make :-) 23:48:38 MissPiggy: you can't fool gigamonkey, he quite literally wrote the book on this stuff! :P 23:48:50 ehehe 23:48:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:49:16 did answer twice though... 23:49:30 Ah. Two sentences. 23:49:42 gigabot: Hello. Hello. 23:49:43 Hello. 23:49:43 Hello. 23:49:50 Maybe he shouldn't do that. 23:49:56 <_deepfire> gigabot: ... 23:49:56 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:49:56 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:50:05 Or that. 23:50:33 (with-output-to-paragraph ...) 23:51:31 (remove-duplicates paragraph :test #'sentence=) 23:51:36 gigabot: Hello. Hello. 23:51:37 Hello. Hello. 23:51:37 gigamonkey: how do I get the property list of a symbol 23:51:38 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:51:40 Slightly better. 23:51:43 gigabot: how do I get the property list of a symbol 23:51:43 Quite likely SYMBOL-PROPERTY LIST or maybe just PROPERTY LIST 23:51:44 :( 23:51:47 adeht: heck if I know. 23:52:17 gigabot: how do i get the plist of a symbol 23:52:17 Quite likely SYMBOL-PLIST or maybe just PLIST 23:52:19 gigabot: Hi #.(+ 1 2) 23:52:20 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:52:27 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.143] has joined #lisp 23:52:29 gigabot: Hi #.42 23:52:30 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:52:40 gigabot: Hi #+(and) there! 23:52:40 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:52:59 pjb: don't you mean #.(run-shell-command "rm -rf ~") ? 23:53:04 everybody seems to have assumed that gigabot READ's somewhere 23:53:09 gigabot: How do I get the lambda-expression of a #'x? 23:53:10 Quite likely X-LAMBDA EXPRESSION or maybe just LAMBDA EXPRESSION 23:53:13 gigabot: Hello. Hello. 23:53:13 Hello. 23:53:17 drewc: there 23:53:20 gigabot: How do I get the lambda-expression of a #'? 23:53:20 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:53:27 gigabot: cool! 23:53:27 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:53:43 pjb: sorry, he strips punctuation. Which maybe isn't the best for a bot in a programming channel. 23:53:48 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 23:54:07 Still strange why it duplicates some answers. 23:54:13 pjb: try now 23:54:13 Oh, because of the dot then. 23:54:20 gigabot: how do i install libraries in clisp? 23:54:20 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:54:27 gigabot: hi . hi . 23:54:27 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:54:45 gigabot: Hi #.42 23:54:46 Sorry, I don't understand. I'm a very simple bot at the moment. 23:55:54 fisxoj [~fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:09 gigabot: boo 23:56:10 Pardon? 23:57:13 minion: tell gigabot about that-dead-sexy-book 23:57:14 gigabot: please see that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:57:14 Practical Common Lisp is the sexiest book I know of. 23:57:24 :-) 23:57:42 lol 23:58:53 Hope they don't loop. 23:58:58 gigabot: tell drewc about that dead sexy book 23:58:58 Practical Common Lisp is the sexiest book I know of. 23:59:02 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:03 gigabot: tell minion about that dead sexy book 23:59:04 Practical Common Lisp is the sexiest book I know of. 23:59:08 Whoops! 23:59:30 That wasn't supposed to happen.