00:00:16 -!- xffff [n=fffff@88.130.214.250] has quit [Client Quit] 00:03:12 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-053-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:02 gonzojive_ [n=red@DNab4222a6.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:06:13 -!- Xach has set mode -bb *!*n=bew@*.hari.cable.virginmedia.com *!*ranguta@*.telnor.net 00:06:32 TR2N` [i=email@89.180.238.94] has joined #lisp 00:07:09 do you not want to leave the telnor ban in place? 00:07:14 -!- snorble_ [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:19 clim make-space-requirement 00:07:20 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/29-3.html#_1649 00:07:43 Guthur: why'd we? 00:07:44 *hefner* realizes his clim-fu is fading 00:08:02 Its where the chimpout brigade come from 00:08:16 *mathrick* realises he got his thinking backwards wrt DYNAMIC-WIND and transparent marshalling 00:18:24 how do I stop Recursive lock attempt happening :/ I just tried to set a pathname so that hunchentoot logs 00:19:37 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:53 Do the (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) 00:25:53 -contents get evaluated in advance of any reader macros in the file? 00:26:25 clhs simple-type-errpr 00:26:25 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for simple-type-errpr. 00:26:36 clhs simple-type-error 00:26:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_smp_tp.htm 00:26:42 thanks specbot 00:30:32 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:58 -!- rickmode [n=rick@dhcp64-134-224-92.fpscc.den.wayport.net] has quit [] 00:33:37 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [] 00:34:28 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.216.204] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:34:58 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-053-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:35:58 DeusExPikachu_ [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-13-15.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:55 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 00:40:24 rickmode [n=rick@dhcp64-134-224-92.fpscc.den.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:55 Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:48 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:50:06 mathrick pasted "Kosher use of CAPTURE-DYNAMIC-ENVIRONMENT?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94120 00:50:13 drewc: hmm, as much as I can see, rewinding the environment doesn't really re-establish the handlers in the other thread. Or am I doing it wrong? 00:50:24 (see above) 00:51:08 mathrick: i don't see a dynamic-wind anywhere 00:51:40 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 00:52:05 -!- oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:52:08 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-123-169.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:09 drewc: right, because I'd like to capture all handlers, not just the ones I specially marked 00:53:04 mathrick: how do you plan to capture a dynamic environment without first creating one? 00:53:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:53:46 mathrick: (defmacro dynamic-handler-bind ....) ? 00:54:00 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:05 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:55:07 drewc: hmm, that's not as nice as I naïvely hoped 00:56:25 mathrick: i don't know how you thought it could work that way, really... i gave you and example and pointed you at dynamic-wind! 00:57:08 mathrick: take a look at how pcos implements his dynamic-foo functions. 00:57:31 s/functions/macros 00:58:31 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:59:33 Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-12-62.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:02:16 davazp [n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:29 drewc: hmm, right, I guess I was expecting magic (sadly) 01:03:17 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:03:45 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest75341 01:04:15 -!- Guest75341 is now known as pkhuong 01:05:09 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:05:25 rdd [n=user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:05:38 mathrick: basically, it comes down to collecting a bunch of (lambda (thunk) (handler-bind (..) (funcall thunk))) forms, sticking them together and passing your lambda as the last thunk. 01:06:01 why do macros like with-lock require you to put the lock inside an extra set of parens? 01:06:03 mathrick:all dynamic-wind does is automate that 01:06:24 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:03 Adlai: for clarity presumably 01:07:08 Adlai: tradition i think more than anything... i've tried leaving off the parens and i always find myself adding them at the call site anyway. 01:07:11 Adlai: Ultimately the macro author's choice. Can be cosmetic. But it is very useful if the "with-blahblah" has or may end up having further config parameters. 01:07:13 also because most WITH-SOMETHING have parens 01:07:20 Adlai: forward compatibility, when you add more arguments. 01:07:26 and that 01:07:31 (with-lock (lock) or (with-lock (lock :some-param 7) . . .) 01:08:09 interesting. I guess "forward compatibility" is a good idea in such a case 01:08:39 abugosh [n=Adium@75.97.206.170.res-cmts.sth.ptd.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:44 Adlai: it always is 01:08:51 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-44-193.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:09:05 it's a matter of how costly making it forward-compatible is 01:09:06 Adlai: Not sure how long you've been lisping (no offense if it's a long time) but (with-lock lock form-a form-b form-c) and (with-lock (lock) form-a form-b form-c) really stand out as different/the "lock" stands out as distinct from the rest of the forms. 01:09:26 Modius, since april/may 01:09:58 I think those examples are bad, though, because in "real" code the forms would be indented like a &body, while the lock would be on the same line as with-lock 01:10:35 Adlai: Not necessarily. 01:10:50 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:22 you don't have to indent your code readably, but it helps. 01:11:48 Adlai: Nothing to do with indentation - the visual cues I mentioned hold up when with-lock is on the same line as the rest of the form. 01:12:18 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@DNab4222a6.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 01:14:39 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:15:32 tankrim [n=qsvans@c-84fae255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:16:34 -!- morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-5f757c6d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:39 drewc, how is the :proceed option in contextl:dynamic-wind used? 01:19:28 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:19:31 Adlai: to avoid name clashes, mostly for macros that expand to dynamic-wind 01:19:55 right, but what does the macrolet do? 01:20:30 lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:21:05 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:21:07 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 01:21:15 nothing, it separates the code you want to capture from the code you want to run in that environment. 01:22:34 is there documentation for contextl somewhere? my confusion is at a conceptual level 01:23:09 (dynamic-wind (let ((*foo* 1)) (proceed ))) 01:23:51 if you capture the environment in , it will include the binding of foo, but not any of the code in 01:24:05 yeah, but it won't help you with dynamic-wind much :) 01:24:11 minion: contexl? 01:24:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``contexl''. 01:24:18 minion: contextl? 01:24:19 contextl: ContextL is a CLOS extension for Context-oriented Programming. http://www.cliki.net/contextl 01:25:01 ok, and if you changed the value of *foo* before the (proceed ..), that would also be captured. 01:25:36 right, anything before the proceed is captured 01:25:47 (avoid side effects! :)) 01:25:50 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 01:26:16 but they're fun! 01:26:44 yeah, and actually you can do so cool tricks with them and dynamic-wind and unwind-protect.. 01:26:53 one question - would a system which included closer-mop (and similar "fittings") included by default, shadowing original symbols where needed, be a good Lisp image for *teaching*? 01:27:03 like dynamic scoping :) 01:27:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-llnsytchjlxxpjps] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:12 is there a neat way to make '((1 ('x 'y)) (1 ('a 'b)) (2 'd 'e)) => '((1 ('x 'y) ('a 'b)) (2 'd 'e))? 01:27:19 p_l: for teaching what? 01:28:10 HET2: do you really want all those quotes in there? i don't think that's doing what you think it's doing 01:28:15 that's a lot of (quote foo) 01:28:22 drewc, nono i was just illustrating 01:28:34 HET2 you could go via a hash table 01:28:44 drewc: as a generic "newbie going through PCL/Gentle/some-CLOS-guide" thing 01:28:48 soupdragon, i know dude but i have too much data for a hash table :/ 01:28:59 lithper2_ [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:01 drewc: just wondering 01:29:41 HET2 really?? 01:30:07 soupdragon, yeah really, i tried that already - gave up after a few hours of exhausted heaps 01:30:09 n00b question: in SLIME at the CL-USER> prompt is there the equivalent of a history like a bash prompt? if so how do i get to prior expressions? 01:30:17 wow I have no idea then 01:30:26 rickmode, M-p 01:30:28 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:30:32 rickmode there's some variables too like * ** and *** 01:30:37 HET2: excuse me for I didn't read the whole conversation, but what about partitioned hash-table with external storage? 01:30:58 rickmode: i use CTRL-uparrow 01:31:06 Adlal: sweetness.. ty 01:31:14 p_l, somehow that seams a lot more effort than a nifty assoc list... 01:31:18 err seems 01:31:23 rickmode: see also C-h m 01:31:32 HET2, lol 01:31:39 HET2: depends on how big a speed difference would be, I guess 01:31:48 *Adlai* wonders why people use IRC clients without tab completion... 01:32:02 we're talking about 250k lists of about 10 elements 01:32:02 but a weak hashtable pulling data from bdb or tc would work nicely, I think 01:32:15 I'm sorry... A hash table exhausts the heap, but you think an alist will work?! 01:32:17 oh - database is too slow 01:32:22 i'll be doing a LOT of lookups 01:32:32 you need a better database! 01:32:36 HET2: is the amount of data constant? 01:32:42 p_l, yeah 01:32:42 -!- davazp [n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:52 pkhuong, why not 01:32:55 drewc: that's coolio too ... if it wasn't for Aquamacs i'd be lost in space.. this lisp/emacs is a of a learning wall... :P 01:33:12 er.. is a bit of a learning wall 01:33:47 HET2: TokyoCabinet has a "fixed" database mode, where it's basically a giant sorted assoc list with very fast lookup (the size of each entry is set to maximum possible size allowed) 01:33:59 HET2: An alist uses 4 pointers/key-value entry. A hash table can be expected to do at least as bad. 01:34:00 interesting 01:34:19 HET2: another method (used iirc by ITA) is to mmap() the data 01:34:22 pkhuong, isn't it the space between elements in a hash table thats evil 01:34:41 rickmode C-up and C-down will scroll through the history as well 01:34:54 oh drewc mentioned that 01:35:00 nvm 01:35:00 HET2: 50% utilisation isn't anything hot for a hash table. If you observed sensibly less than that, I'd file a performance bug report. 01:35:03 HET2: only 250000 10 element lists? 01:35:20 HET2: what's in the lists... mpegs? 01:35:31 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:38 drewc, lol no, a few integers and a few strings <= 20chars 01:35:40 you guys rock... totally debunks the alleged hazing of new lispers 01:35:48 how in emacs can I auto load an inferior-lisp file right after the inferior repl is running? (trying to set *central-registry* for asdf 01:35:53 pkhuong, hmm you may have a point there 01:35:57 rickmode: this is #lisp, not c.l.l 01:36:05 HET2: i don't thing your problem is your datastructure 01:36:10 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-179.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:36:20 rickmode, don't listen to p_l, we're just taking some downtime here. Come back later when the hazing is hot. 01:36:24 well the code works when i use a smaller dataset 01:36:27 ya in #lisp they lull you into a false sense of security first 01:36:32 Or, if it is, alists instead of hash-tables likely isn't part of the solution. 01:36:33 ... 01:36:36 but it crashes my lisp when i run it on all the data 01:36:40 jsfb, your CL comes with a config files in which you can set *central-registry* 01:36:43 *Adlai* is joking :) 01:36:59 pkhuong, thanks 01:37:00 I tried that but asdf isn't load at that point, it fails (.sbclrc) 01:37:04 HET2: I'd consider thinking, maybe some algorithmic analysis. That tends to be useful. 01:37:06 *loaded 01:37:15 p_l: ah... Adlia... I'll be sure to ask flame-bait question later about about scheme vs. lisp vs. clojure vs. scala vs. .... ada...... etc. 01:37:18 rickmode: anyway, I find #lisp a nice channel towards newbies, though maybe not in the same style as Haskell :) 01:37:33 pkhuong, there's not a lot of algorithm involved there :/ i just dumb a database table into a hash table 01:37:44 rickmode: .... Ada you say... An interesting one did you pick, young padawan 01:37:45 in a (loop ...) 01:37:54 err dumb = dump 01:37:58 HET2: it's your algorithm.. the data structure you described is only 40mb or so on my system 01:38:18 drewc, that's what i would expect as well... that's why i even tried :/ 01:38:18 jsfb: SBCL should have ASDF loaded at startup. 01:38:19 p_l: i'm new to lisp ... not new to programming... I cut my teeth on ada back in college - a gloriously bad teaching language 01:38:19 *if* you had an awful lot of tail-sharing, alists might be useful, assuming the usage doesn't fit well with another way to achieve persistence. 01:38:20 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:38:43 HET2: profile? 01:39:11 drewc, hard to profile a code that crashes the sbcl me thinks... 01:39:40 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:41 HET2: are you daft? you said it works on a smaller dataset.. non? 01:39:51 drewc, smaller as in hand written :) 01:39:59 So profile it, find out where you're leaking 01:40:01 in the .emacs I have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) which loads asdf, but when SBCL starts running the init script it fails on 01:40:01 (setf asdf:*central-registry* 01:40:01 '(*default-pathname-defaults* ... 01:40:07 HET2, load 1/10th of your full dataset, then. 01:40:08 drewc, sry, i'll try that 01:40:11 davazp [n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:15 use half your data .. if that doesn't work.. try half again 01:40:16 rickmode: I dare to say Ada is better than Java 01:40:20 -!- cmm [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:40:21 (for teachin) 01:40:27 it's called problem solving.. it's what programmers do 01:40:32 cmm [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has joined #lisp 01:40:42 by saying asdf package isn't loaded. But from the repl after M-x slime asdf IS loaded. 01:40:49 *p_l* has a Deja Vu regarding HET2's problems 01:40:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:41:17 p_l: why would you shadow symbols for a newbie? 01:41:17 jsfb, i don't add anything to my .emacs to load asdf. 01:41:41 p_l: (sorry, catching up with scrollback) 01:41:42 p_l: probably - java didn't exist when I was in college ... 01:41:43 :) 01:41:44 so it seems that SBCL is running it's init script before slime-asdf running in emacs can run (i.e. inferior lisp runs *first*) I presume this is something to do with swank 01:41:45 Actually, if it's in a loop, it might be some GC issue. Some forgotten reference, conservativeness or maybe weird interactions with the GC. CLRHASH and reusing the hash-table might help (assuming it's correct to reuse the hash table). 01:41:55 minion: thwap to jsfb 01:41:55 jsfb: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 01:42:41 whoever is in charge of thwap might want to note that the MP3 is unavailable 01:43:02 jsfb: yes. The lisp must be running to load SWANK into it. ~/.swank.lisp is the dot-file for swank. 01:43:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:43:19 drewc: I was only considering shadowing various possible deviations (ones that might not cause a conflict with ANSI, but which might bite when you try to teach/demonstrate some extra stuff like MOP.) OTOH, I don't know when someone should get to see MOP. My Lisp learning experience was rather weird :D 01:43:49 yes, i know the difference between its and it's as a contraction... geeze 01:43:58 -!- astalla [n=astalla@93-36-229-87.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 01:44:16 p_l: i don't think newbies need to worry about MOP.. if they need the mop, they'll know about shadow and closer 01:44:18 jsfb: at least the bot doesn't kick you... (Like in another channel I frequent) 01:44:35 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@75.97.206.170.res-cmts.sth.ptd.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:44:43 drewc: righto. But preloading some useful (portable) stuff into image is ok? :D 01:44:43 that was a bot sending that? oh brother 01:44:52 p_l, does the bot analyze your grammar to figure out whether you used "its" correctly? 01:44:56 that would be cool 01:45:02 kylemcg [n=user@c-76-19-221-246.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:41 Adlai: no, it's in polish-speaking channel, it had a list of "instant kick" errors and checked against online dictionary 01:45:48 p_l: yeah, why not 01:45:52 heh 01:46:22 Adlai: mind you, it's and its are nothing compared to polish rules on posessive etc. 01:46:35 man, polish is really hard indeed 01:46:43 *drewc* tried and failed to learn the rules 01:46:45 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:47:08 well, we don't have positional grammar like germanic (or latin) languages 01:47:23 pkhuong: I don't have a ~/.swank.lisp, should I put the *central-registry* form in there? (too many init files LOL) 01:48:15 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:34 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:50:58 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:51:10 nevermind I did and it works 01:52:54 Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-97-156.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 01:53:23 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-16-219.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:53:38 -!- tankrim [n=qsvans@c-84fae255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 01:56:09 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:11 Is there a specification of what a fasl file is exactly 01:56:12 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:56:13 ? 01:56:22 Quadrescence: implementation-specific 01:56:22 fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 01:56:40 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-97-156.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has left #lisp 01:57:03 afaik only ECL (and maybe GCL) adhere to any formal specification and it's more of a side-effect 01:57:19 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:58:42 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-142-155.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:43 drewc: learning just the rules without the language itself sounds like a thankless and rather pointless task 02:00:23 -!- rickmode [n=rick@dhcp64-134-224-92.fpscc.den.wayport.net] has quit [] 02:00:33 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 02:01:00 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:01:48 mathrick: not if you're interested in language and grammar, and have a lot polish friends... it's not at all. 02:01:59 gonzojive_ [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:07 quite enjoyable, especially if you like vodka ;) 02:02:13 drewc: I mean I can't learn just the rules without actually learning the language 02:02:29 and I don't really see the point in doing so 02:02:57 I'm very much interested in languages and grammar, but just a bunch of rules without any context to set them in is not very interesting 02:03:04 so far, the easiest grammar I had to deal with in a natural language was japanese 02:03:15 humm, there isn't any functional interface for establishing restarts, is there? 02:03:43 then I guess english. Polish, if I wasn't a native speaker, I'd never get right :D 02:04:15 saying that English has a grammar is a stretch 02:04:19 haha 02:05:07 it has a mostly positional (nowadays) grammar - you can always try to use it in older style, but even then it had minor positional characteristics 02:05:27 compared to a free-flow languages like slavic ones, it's hardly a grammar :D 02:05:35 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:06:21 someone needs to explain why *-CASE and *-BIND do things in the opposite order 02:06:45 mathrick: one is a binding form, the other is a conditional 02:06:56 it would by hard to use bindings before you establish them 02:07:01 p_l: I meant more the fact it doesn't have rules, it just has sets of more or less popular exceptions 02:07:24 mathrick: oh, it does have rules, it's just that you are rarely ever taught them... 02:07:26 and equally difficult to dispatch on a value you have not yet created 02:07:26 drewc: but HANDLER-CASE also establishes binding 02:07:40 p_l: please show me one rule to which there are no exceptions 02:07:44 mathrick: does it now? 02:08:13 mathrick: tenses also count as rules 02:08:14 drewc: yes, how else would it be able to establish handlers? 02:08:36 mathrick: and some of those "exceptions" are just one rules superseding another 02:08:57 mathrick: mind you, english had its rules rather chopped 02:09:01 mathrick: it doesn't. 02:09:03 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 02:09:08 -!- kylemcg [n=user@c-76-19-221-246.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:14 well, ok it does 02:09:21 drewc: how come it's defined in terms of HANDLER-BIND then? 02:09:21 mathrick: and formal english is, in a sense, english vocabulary with french grammar 02:09:34 but that's not the point... it's in the name 02:09:39 clhs case 02:09:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_case_.htm 02:09:55 specbot: work with me! 02:10:06 problem was in postmodern 02:10:20 fixed it by doing the select in batches with limit/offset 02:10:23 p_l: not really, at this point it doesn't have rules. It's useless to talk about rules if you have to learn a separate set of rules to tell you when the first set of rules applies... 02:10:31 thx for the help 02:10:40 drewc: I still think it's terribly confusing 02:11:05 anyway, if I wanted to establish restarts at runtime, I'm fighting a losing battle, right? 02:11:24 mathrick, no, just an implementation-dependant one 02:11:44 not even... just COMPILE a lambda 02:11:58 wouldn't that be horribly slow? 02:12:11 compared to what? 02:12:35 tapping into the implementation-dependant condition system machinery 02:12:37 to doing it via implementation-specific poking 02:15:32 well, in my tests it take 1/1000th of a second to compile a lambda that will establish a given restart at run time... that is not horribly slow at all, and portable! 02:15:38 :) 02:17:31 can that restart close over a lexical environment? 02:19:12 of course `(lambda (thunk) (restart-bind ((,name ,restart)) (funcall thunk))) 02:19:32 the restart is just a function, after all 02:19:44 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:07 (flet ((my-restart (...)...)) (call-with-restart 'my-restart-name #'my-restart (lambda () ...))) 02:22:43 holy crap, its' friday? 02:22:58 all day, i've though it was thursday.. 02:23:00 this is not good 02:23:12 drewc: in my tests it takes 10µs to do it with SBCL-specific machinery 02:23:19 clearly 1ms is way, way slower 02:23:37 especially for my purposes, which is multithreading 02:23:43 indeed 02:24:20 my math was wrong, 4.5µs 02:24:24 yeah... a quick M-. and it looks like it's pretty simple innit 02:24:39 yup 02:25:25 it's saturday already. Worst thing? I noticed it through the earlier closing time of library -_- 02:26:31 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:37 I guess I can add SBCL-specific glue, and fallback to COMPILE/EVAL for everything else 02:26:56 and if anybody wants it fast on their implementation, they can contribute 02:27:03 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:41 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:28:32 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 02:29:25 p_l, here it's half past 2am - but i am l33t enough to have my own desk at uni ;) 02:29:27 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:29:55 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:30 HET2: I have my desk too, but really staying there all night is something I do only when in a pinch 02:31:02 mathrick, well - paper is due in 2 weeks and i am planning to spend one of them skiing 02:31:06 so you could call it a pinch 02:31:14 yeah 02:32:24 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:33:34 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:34:44 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 02:35:07 lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 02:36:35 HET2: heh. I don't have a desk at uni, though I have taken the habit of walking around without shoes inside certain university buildings 02:41:36 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:38 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:14 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:43:31 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:49 egoz [n=Egoz@118.96.226.201] has joined #lisp 02:46:28 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-B39B2CCB.midmaine.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 02:46:59 brennanc [n=brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:48:29 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:14 TDT [n=user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:29 g'evening all. 02:49:33 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:50:32 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-185-193.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-155-36.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-117-39.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A3451.versanet.de] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- austinh [n=austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- fmu [i=root@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- kencausey [n=ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- hohum [i=dcorbe@206.71.169.114] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- borisc [n=borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- cupe [n=cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:32 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:50:33 cupe [n=cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has joined #lisp 02:50:33 jyujin_ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 02:50:39 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-185-193.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 02:50:40 fmu [i=root@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 02:50:40 borisc [n=borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 02:50:41 austinh [n=austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:42 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 02:50:44 spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 02:50:44 bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:44 hohum_ [i=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:47 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-1441.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 02:50:47 ramus [n=ramus@99.23.155.36] has joined #lisp 02:50:50 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:55 skeptomai|away [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:56 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:05 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 02:51:07 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:08 kencausey [n=ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 02:51:20 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-117-39.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:24 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 02:52:45 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:53:13 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:10 javascript:repeatidiot(); <--- now, that's a great link to open an instructional video 02:54:21 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:58:53 oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:25 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:25 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:02:04 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-237-2.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["good night everyone"] 03:03:10 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:22 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:03:29 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:04:08 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 03:04:20 uranther [n=James@c-98-226-156-13.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:25 benny [n=benny@i577A3451.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:08:33 -!- soupdragon [n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *"] 03:09:39 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 03:12:30 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:12:38 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Success] 03:15:51 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:18:32 urnthr [n=James@c-98-222-201-170.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:04 kmaal [n=xthw@CPE0018f859bef9-CM001225d746ca.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:19:04 -!- kmaal [n=xthw@CPE0018f859bef9-CM001225d746ca.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Broken pipe] 03:20:57 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:26:30 -!- TDT [n=user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:02 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:21 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:53 -!- uranther [n=James@c-98-226-156-13.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:40:40 gtab2 [n=gtab@h-149-70.A256.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 03:41:09 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:27 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:37 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 03:42:50 bgiwcflb [n=ianexnys@adsl-99-189-198-154.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:05 -!- bgiwcflb [n=ianexnys@adsl-99-189-198-154.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [K-lined] 03:45:50 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:33 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.238.94] has quit [Success] 03:49:37 -!- Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-12-62.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 03:51:35 I clicked on the theregister link and it opened in firefox 03:51:35 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.202.210] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:51:53 does this mean my user will auto-spam and be k-lined? 03:52:09 Dorian [n=Dorian@129.10.231.169] has joined #lisp 03:57:58 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-171-8.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:58:02 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:44 not that particular link, unless they have managed to hijack theregister's server(s) 03:59:32 Darxus [n=darxus@panic.chaosreigns.com] has joined #lisp 03:59:39 Yay. 04:02:33 urantherz [n=James@c-98-227-36-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:47 whew! 04:04:01 Ohh, CL-PPCRE. 04:04:15 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-185-193.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:04:34 <- Lisp fanboy. 04:04:39 What do you guys think of Arc? 04:05:38 Darxus, http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/lisp-programmers.jpg 04:05:50 basically sums it up 04:07:14 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:07:37 gmwy [n=pigkglqt@79.103.147.246.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:07:37 ashm [n=kqpz@79.103.147.246.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:07:37 yzhoizl [n=gggbbroh@79.103.147.246.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:07:37 yfznwt [n=yoheplz@79.103.147.246.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:07:37 xkyqqcha [n=wznsg@79.103.147.246.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:07:37 zvnfean [n=hkxnucrp@79.103.147.246.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:07:37 tgo [n=rgmybyv@79.103.147.246.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:07:37 sot [n=pctmb@79.103.147.246.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:59:00 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 04:59:00 04:59:00 -!- names: ccl-logbot RaceCondition benny urnthr alexsuraci billstclair _3b` ironChicken joast oconnore_ holycow rares moocow dto1 OmniMancer saikatc LoRez ryepup dto pinterface ivan_chernetsky antifuchs skeptomai|away Draggor kencausey redline6561 raison stepnem cmeow clog housel bpalmer Darxus Dorian SandGorgon gtab2 araujo Adlai Beetny dmiles_afk G0SUB tltstc sjbach ramus madsy hohum_ bipt` spoofy sledge borisc fmu jyujin_ cupe fe[nl]ix stassats` Demosthenes 04:59:00 -!- names: fatblueduck cmm lithper2_ pkhuong Phoodus DeusExPikachu_ snorble__ drwho Krystof Ralith abeaumont Jasko antoszka sepult mathrick Fufie konr legumbre pizzledizzle ace4016 proq Modius sykopomp NNshag jsfb cools @drewc myrkraverk koning_robot wlr fihi09 bulibuta ianmcorvidae madnificent spiaggia adeht hypno daniel ASau` Spaghettini Soulmann rullie stoop pjb yahooooo Tordek Buganini nitor prip joga egn felipe Yamazaki1kun Sergio` tychoish phadthai 04:59:00 -!- names: beach tobetchi ClaudiaS Quadrescence qebab jsnell Helheim nalioth werdan7 rahul mtd cmatei xristos Pepe_ boyscared Xof rootzlevel hicx174 Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr dcrawford foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm nuba ennen foom2 dostoyev1ky Axioplase_ tomaw Khisanth dejones johs anekos lichtblau l_a_m dfox ud_ cods Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus 04:59:00 -!- names: wasabi mgr_ dmm_ cpt_nemo Xantoz eldragon arbscht herbieB jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist slyrus_ alec trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ gz ve PuffTheMagic dsop [df] pr Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott rlonstein setheus luis kom_ aking pok_ guaqua mornfall Tristam kloeri reb` djinni` addled frodef qed ASau p_l eno mikezor_ chillywi1ly tvaalen disturbance PissedNumlock @Xach Fade Raptelan AntiSpamMeta easyE pragma_ erk tic scode krappie 04:59:00 -!- names: lharc rotty ineiros schme zbigniew _deepfire weirdo danderson rapacity peddie guaq lukjad007 alexbobp bobrown` chii Tabmow hoeq z0d koollman retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop jrockway ``Erik sytse 04:59:32 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229113239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:00:00 If you're sitting 8 hours a day coding in Java vs C# and you did it because you grew a long beard and stopped bathing you're really cutting off your nose to spite your face. 05:00:09 (vs = instead of) 05:00:13 C# seems to associated with Microsoft. 05:01:22 maybe because Microsoft invented C#? :-P 05:01:23 too 05:01:44 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-2.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:03:03 Dorian: this is very challenging for me :) 05:03:29 fatblueduck: this is very challenging for everyone I have asked. 05:03:39 fatblueduck: I do appreciate the help tho haha. 05:03:44 One of the things that concerns me in programming languages is the tendancy for perl programs to be written in a way that they are later difficult to understand, even by their creator, let alone other people who might want to maintain them. I get the impression python is much better about that. How is lisp? 05:03:58 because I am totally out of ideas. 05:04:00 rgz [n=rgz@unaffiliated/rgz] has joined #lisp 05:04:54 So I guess I will try posting it again to see if anyone else wants to challenge. I am trying to make a reverse function that takes a True List as the input and outputs a true list. without the use of helper functions 05:04:57 http://paste.lisp.org/display/94131 05:05:16 -!- rgz [n=rgz@unaffiliated/rgz] has left #lisp 05:05:16 Dorian: I will work on this until I solve it 05:05:40 fatblueduck: hopefully it is interesting to u. I wouldn't want u to be bored. 05:05:54 s/u/you/ >:-P 05:06:05 fatblueduck: my code may also be going the wrong way to do this. 05:06:19 rgz [n=rgz@unaffiliated/rgz] has joined #lisp 05:07:09 Dorian: You're getting other people to do your homework for you? 05:07:34 Dorian: My code is significantly more cropped than yours 05:08:00 sometimes collaborative efforts are good 05:08:17 Darxus: It isny homework 05:08:30 I have typed the code, and I am stuck 05:08:39 So i am trying to get someone elses opinion 05:09:08 kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 05:09:46 Dorian: You didn't say this was for some kind of math class? 05:10:17 Darxus: Logic and Comp. Teacher is trying to challenge us and show us how lisp breaks down functions 05:10:34 Dorian: make a function of 3 parameters: input list, output head, and the last cons of the output 05:10:37 and he has stumped me, so I thought I would reach out to the community 05:10:46 Has to be one paramater Phoodus 05:10:52 or I would just make an accumulator 05:10:59 for each term in the input list, set the cdr of the last cons of the output 05:11:20 use &optional 05:11:29 can't use &optional 05:11:33 why not? 05:11:52 only can use if, car, cdr, rev (function i am making), nil, cons 05:11:57 why? 05:12:02 that is the challenge? 05:12:02 lol 05:12:25 Dorian: Sounds like homework to me. 05:12:35 it does 05:12:49 No, the homework was write a research paper on Np-complete 05:12:52 however, you can stuff your accumulator inside the single parameter 05:12:52 that wasn't fun 05:13:01 so your 1 parameter is really a list of things to work on 05:13:21 but that's just stupid :) 05:14:04 how can i stick an accumulator in a recursive function that doesnt take it as an input 05:14:07 calling it the first time would be a pain 05:14:18 because the single parameter would be a list of 3 items 05:14:40 instead of a function of 3 parameters 05:14:44 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-98-116-202-61.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:15:11 like I said, it's stupid and a pain to work with, but meets your weird limitations 05:16:17 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:16:18 well the weird limitation is only to show us, as i said, how lisp is really breaking down functions to basic if, cons, car, cdr etc 05:16:27 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:33 but i will play around with that thought thanks 05:16:48 "us" of course not meaning the students in a homework environment :-P 05:17:07 us is the students of the class yes. 05:17:18 im not denying that it is a class? 05:17:23 brennanc [n=brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:19:17 Hah, On Lisp is in the ubuntu package archives. 05:21:02 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:22:15 Dorian: so the challenge is something that's generally impossible, but wants you to bang around with to see why 05:23:22 Phoodus: Yeh, but it is not impossible, jsut hard. He will eventually go over it, i presume 05:24:25 Phoodus: yes this example is probably very tedious and boring due to the append function, but its just one of the many challenge problems he gives out in the year 05:26:08 Dorian: that seems like a kind of silly thing to try to show 05:26:40 Ralith: It is a logic and computation class, therefore it boils down to boolean logic. im assuming that is what he is trying to show 05:26:54 Ralith: I mean it is not a "Learn Lisp class" 05:27:09 how can I ignore GPG signatures when install with asfd-install 05:27:31 -!- kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:38 I tried defparameter ASDF-INSTALL-CUSTOMIZE::*VERIFY-GPG-SIGNATURES* nil but it had no effect 05:27:53 -!- bpalmer [n=user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has left #lisp 05:28:05 drwho_ [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:41 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:29:13 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:29:17 -!- drwho_ [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:29:27 lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 05:29:44 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:22 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 05:30:57 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-179.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:31:42 -!- rgz [n=rgz@unaffiliated/rgz] has left #lisp 05:32:09 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:35 Dorian: doesn't strike me as relevant. *shrug* 05:36:13 Ralith: Yes, it took me a couple hours to even develop that code and it probably is completely irrelevant to any normal lisp person 05:36:29 no, it doesn't strike me as relevant to boolean logic. 05:37:02 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["sleep"] 05:37:10 well all linear programming is boolean logic ? lol.. including lisp? 05:37:16 how would it not be relevant to lisp? 05:37:47 I def agree it is a stretch tho 05:37:52 the work you are trying to do does not strike me as relevant to boolean logic. 05:37:56 brennanc, have you considered using clbuild? 05:38:27 http://common-lisp.net/projects/clbuild/ 05:38:42 *Adlai* laments the absence of bots 05:38:56 clbuild doesn't have many packages on it. 05:39:14 im not going to try to convince u ralith because I am not fully convinced myself haha 05:39:26 i had to manually add uffi? 05:39:28 As i said earlier it was a assumption. 05:39:34 but other than that it is nice 05:39:50 oconnore_, uffi is superseded by cffi... 05:39:55 Dorian: you seem to be misunderstanding me; the language is irrelevant. 05:40:40 Adlai, what do you mean superseded? is it compatible with uffi? 05:40:50 I think it has a compatibility package 05:42:22 Ralith: I am trying to understand you. 05:42:24 Ralith: Ralith: Okay. ITE = Complete Boolean Base. Therefore expressing a function solely into ITE, shows that it can be expressed by a simple boolean logic formula. 05:42:27 gah 05:42:32 copy paste ftl 05:42:42 I'll look into clbuild, thanks for the FYI 05:44:41 Dorian: sill working on it! :) 05:45:10 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 05:45:20 fatblueduck: haha. dude im about to give up anyways haha. Opportunity cost almost > self-interest 05:45:33 Dorian, what's this issue again? 05:45:50 Adlai: http://paste.lisp.org/display/94131 05:46:04 it is a reverse function that takes in a list and returns a list 05:46:08 Proxy Error 05:46:20 the code works for every list other then a single element list 05:46:25 you're writing CL:REVERSE in terms of primitive functions, right? 05:46:26 returns a list reversed* ofcourse* 05:46:29 yes 05:46:33 no... not yet... I'm getting closer... 05:46:40 I'm certain 05:46:56 lemme get u a paste of what i have adlai 05:47:21 hmm paste.lisp.org down? lol 05:47:25 yeah 05:47:32 gives me a proxy error 05:47:38 hmm 05:48:00 i opened a chat. did u get it? 05:48:22 sure, /msg it to me 05:48:39 Dorian: does it have to be O(n)? 05:48:52 Ralith: No. 05:49:02 Ralith: it can be as inefficent as you like. 05:49:21 Ralith: we haven't hit the making algorithms more efficent part yet. 05:50:13 Ralith: isn't recursion almost never 0(n)? lol 05:50:43 recursion can be as efficient as an iterative algorithm if you can write in a tail-recursive manner 05:50:57 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:13 Dorian: why wouldn't it be? 05:52:31 Ralith: Sorry, I was thinking of a mathematical problem that didn't use 0(n) but then i realized it recursed twice. 05:52:32 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:38 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:13 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229113239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 05:58:58 I don't know if it helps, but I hear (rumour) that it can be done in about 6 lines of code 05:59:14 lines in lisp are entirely a stylistic choice. 05:59:59 well most of the time we use easy notation to make it readable 06:02:15 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-2.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:25 and most of the time the number of newlines involved in that is a stylistic choice 06:03:23 Heh, forgetting any lisp I attempted to grasp for a few years, then reading the Arc tutorial, then reading about lisp more... made lambda a lot easier to digest. In Arc, lambda is called fn. And that helped. 06:03:44 gtev [n=kgw@74.196.235.73] has joined #lisp 06:03:46 -!- gtev [n=kgw@74.196.235.73] has quit [K-lined] 06:03:56 emma_ [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 06:03:56 Also the way fn was explained in Arc. 06:04:23 As just a way to define a function directly as a list instead of using a function to generate it. 06:04:43 -!- jsfb [n=jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:06:13 minion: are you back? 06:06:14 yes 06:06:17 sweet 06:07:11 Darxus: huh? 06:07:56 drewc: Pulling up the Arc faq to get a useful quote. 06:08:37 this i have to see :) 06:10:11 "As the literal representation of a string is a series of characters 06:10:11 surrounded by double quotes, the literal representation of a function 06:10:11 is a list consisting of the symbol fn, followed by its parameters, 06:10:11 followed by its body. So you could represent a function to return 06:10:11 the average of two numbers as: 06:10:13 arc> (fn (x y) (/ (+ x y) 2)) 06:10:16 " 06:10:18 Ack, sorry about the wrapping. 06:10:25 ok, lets not do that again 06:11:16 Darxus, what about this prose illuminates "fn" anymore than any other explanation of anonymous functions? 06:11:22 and he's talking about notation, not about any property of functions themselves 06:11:32 Anyway, saying that that was just the literal way to define a function, and using "fn" which is clearly an abbreviation for "function" is less scary than "lambda". So it sunk in easier. 06:12:32 i've never understood this 'fear' people talk about associated with things like lambda... 06:12:43 it's all greek to me 06:12:48 :D 06:12:54 lol 06:13:00 it's the fear of all things which sound, fittingly, "scary" 06:13:06 drewc: I dropped out of college after my third semester, community college, having failed yoga once, and precalc 1 twice. 06:13:09 Adlai: you won the internet tonight for sure. 06:13:12 you could call a chair a latin name and it would scare people off. 06:13:18 \o/ 06:13:28 they'd be frightened and unable to work out how to sit down on it. 06:13:34 I even had a year of Latin in Jr. High though :P 06:13:40 Darxus: i dropped out of high school, what's your point? 06:13:44 and go use other, less intimidating seats, even if they're moldy. 06:13:49 ramus_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-144-19.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:53 drewc: Yeah but you never failed precalc 1 twice. 06:13:56 Darxus, you failed _yoga_ ? 06:14:04 Ralith: what really scares people is when you show them that their supposed "nice and non-sciency" subject suddenly requires Advanced Statistics :D 06:14:05 Adlai: Yeah. There was a required paper. I didn't do it. 06:14:10 having never taken it, no :) 06:14:16 Dropping out was the good choice. 06:14:22 p_l: hee 06:14:25 Failing yoga was a sign. 06:14:27 drewc, really? this is interesting! 06:14:31 isnt lambda just a basic helper function what is scary? 06:15:05 Ralith: I heard of a girl that *fainted* when the lecturer suddenly wrote some complex equation in economy class, expecting them to be capable of understanding it 06:15:55 Dorian: Maybe.. somebody gave me the impression that "lambda" in lisp is this amaizing all powerful complicated thing. So I figured it was more complicated and scary than "this here is a function". Even though it is, in implimentation, this allpowerful amaizing thing. 06:16:03 mind you, that was in poland, where there's this large gap between math knowledge HS gives you and math knowledge expected from freshmen at the beginning of the year 06:16:58 Darxus: In most cases I just use a local definition because i like the nice easy reading code :) 06:17:06 or let in our case 06:17:20 if you're using let to define a function locally, you'll still need lambda... 06:17:49 I can handle that now that I know that lambda just means "this list is a function". 06:18:12 Darxus: I do the same thing 06:18:25 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 06:19:36 yeh but atleast the naming would be easier to understand for someone else trying to read it 06:20:19 Yeah, like I never use the default variables in perl. 06:20:23 i can handle functions now that i know that they are just all lambda', FWIW 06:20:40 Heh. 06:21:14 in fact, learning that everything was lambda was one of the most important things i ever grokked 06:22:19 The definition of "grok" is neat. I'm actually in the middle of reading the book for the first time. 06:22:59 been a long time since i read that one 06:23:35 Time to try some sleep again. I expect you will be seeing more of me. 06:23:51 Draxus: later bro 06:24:25 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-8-26.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:24:34 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:57 Adlai: I do appreciate the help, but I will just see what my teacher says about it in a couple days 06:25:24 fatblueduck: probably going to call it a night, but i do appreciate the help too 06:25:35 Ralith: same to u too 06:27:25 -!- ramus [n=ramus@99.23.155.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:52 fda314925 [n=fda31492@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 06:36:48 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-28-240.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:36:53 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 06:43:11 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-89-27.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:45:32 yxrtswrlyvm [n=fsnqaiay@c-24-125-77-62.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:33 -!- yxrtswrlyvm [n=fsnqaiay@c-24-125-77-62.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [K-lined] 06:45:36 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 06:51:17 Kenjin [n=josesant@242-71.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 06:53:37 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:04 popn [n=god@24-159-108-50.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:05 -!- popn [n=god@24-159-108-50.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [K-lined] 06:56:44 km<6l------------00 06:56:47 bew [n=bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:57:00 DeusExPikachu__ [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-21-157.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:12 sorry, ferret on keyboard 06:57:14 drewc, joining the spammers, I see? 06:57:59 Spam Spam awesome 06:59:24 -!- bew [n=bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:00:07 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:02:55 slyrus [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 07:06:28 -!- ramus_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-144-19.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:39 ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-144-19.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:54 lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 07:07:05 -!- Kenjin [n=josesant@242-71.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 07:08:42 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:10:45 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:37 -!- DeusExPikachu_ [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-13-15.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:16:12 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:18:56 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.69.37] has quit [Success] 07:20:02 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 07:24:09 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.172] has joined #lisp 07:27:33 milanj- [n=milan@109.93.76.169] has joined #lisp 07:27:59 -!- Dorian [n=Dorian@129.10.231.169] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:29:27 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-njktbozihxetcwam] has joined #lisp 07:29:29 morning 07:30:38 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:43 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 07:36:00 rickmode [n=rick@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:20 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:08 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:05 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:48:28 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:49:03 nus [n=nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 07:50:16 -!- DeusExPikachu__ [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-21-157.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:50:22 is there an easy way to have asdf compile a C file for me? 07:50:35 into a .so 07:54:32 lukego, I think you'd need to define a new class of component and a method on (asdf:provide asdf:load-op ) 07:55:22 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-206.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:59:40 -!- LoRez [i=lorez@freenode/staff/lorez] has quit ["leaving"] 08:04:56 spiaggia` [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:05:22 lukego: http://pinterface.livejournal.com/23416.html might provide some inspiration 08:07:29 TR2N` [i=email@89-180-236-85.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 08:07:48 hey now I see why every time I've set out to write a small osx tun/tap binding I haven't succeeded. it's because the interface is slightly different to linux such that it doesn't actually need any binding - just open/close/read/write on e.g. /dev/tun0 08:08:42 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 08:10:08 [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-32-142.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:00 Vinnipeg [n=innocent@95.84.9.167] has joined #lisp 08:13:48 Reaver1 [n=Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:15:37 lukego: is that Vienna lisp meetup really /Saturday/ 27 Feb? 08:15:48 yep! 08:16:41 there's no formal agenda but I suppose antifuchs shows us around the metalab, we talk shit, and have dinner 08:17:06 and I'll keep sunday free for seeing vienna too 08:17:25 works for you? 08:17:46 that's pretty much the plan, yeah (: 08:18:07 I'll invite a few of my clojure/lisp-using viennese friends to come in later, too (: 08:18:37 (heh. I suppose clojure/lisp is another one of those python/makefile-isms dan wrote about a long time ago) 08:20:01 usc [n=teozn@CPE002129dc2139-CM00195ed9e70c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:08 -!- usc [n=teozn@CPE002129dc2139-CM00195ed9e70c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [K-lined] 08:20:37 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:44 kami` [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:24:54 good morning 08:25:29 lukego/antifuchs: I'm contemplating combining it with wedding anniversary (how romantic am I!). So is Opernring or Schottenring a better base from which to venture out with baby buggy? 08:25:54 both are fine, have low-barrier trams going by 08:26:34 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-117-39.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:27:27 opernring is somewhat better, public-transport-wise (three subway lines have an interchange there), but schottenring isn't bad either plus it has the university and other nice things nearby 08:30:31 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit ["leaving"] 08:30:51 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:32:17 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:32:44 -!- [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-32-142.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- Reaver1 [n=Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.172] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-144-19.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- urnthr [n=James@c-98-227-36-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- nus [n=nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- cmm [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8db4e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- Ri- [n=ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- dsop [i=dsp@ns.experimentalworks.net] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- werdan7 [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- tvaalen [n=r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-61.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- clop [n=jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@99.54.133.197] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- chillywi1ly [n=danielb@cpe-65-28-61-156.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:32:44 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:41:58 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:58 16:41:58 -!- names: ccl-logbot myrkraverk c|mell austinh tarbo fe[nl]ix mejja schoppenhauer ikki Geralt sepult gemelen ignas prxq demmeln leo2007 antifuchs joast tsuru ruediger_ Xantoz LiamH hugod ASau marioxcc tankrim Adlai gz_ varjag jleija bgs100 specbot minion lisppaste redline6561 konr kenjin2201 benny madsy gabnet rsynnott Zephyrus Guthur Alabaman dlowe carlocci Odin- blackened` dto1 DrunkTomato somecodehere rdd` timor Adamant morphling daniel tcr Stattrav lispm 16:41:58 -!- names: Yamazaki-kun Jabberwockey bdowning weirdo zbigniew SandGorgon plutonas xenosoz2 frontiers madnificent freiksenet bulibuta dalkvist whoppix Spaghettini tensorpudding S11001001 p8m ski ramus sykopomp PissedNumlock djinni` koollman ace4016 Patzy jrockway cupe tvaal Hali_303 Edico Hun kiuma Ralith potatishandlarn hicx174 prip Fufie TR2N felipe Khisanth srcerer blast_hardcheese Ginei_Morioka lemoinem Dodek ironChicken splittist raison saikatc G0SUB rahul guaq 16:41:58 -!- names: CrazyEddy jyujin yacin mikezor nicktastic vsync pr p_l mgr ``Erik Fade emma nareshov tychoish rapacity PuffTheMagic nuba spiaggia` ceineke_ ClaudiaS tobetchi Guest428 phadthai egn alexbobp Xach sytse Buganini Darxus Axioplase_ qed ud disturbance bobrown` Pepe_ easyE ve araujo ivan_chernetsky rlonstein borisc herbieB yahooooo Tordek cmm eno chillywilly pragma_ codemonkeyx _3b__ _3b` kuwabara Helheim ineiros rotty schme _deepfire abeaumont alec lharc 16:41:58 -!- names: nowhereman wlr thijso spacebat rootzlevel ennen ASau` trittweiler krappie jroes danderson peddie scode erk slather fnordus mathrick Krystof DrForr anekos Soulmann dejones dcrawford foom fgtech bfein pjb boyscared Sergio` rullie billstclair lichtblau l_a_m kami` Xof johs Kolyan ianmcorvidae|alt koning_robot kencausey tomaw wasabi stepnem Draggor guaqua pok Jasko Taggnostr djm joga Orest^bnc fihi09 setheus Modius oconnore_ snorble__ drewc rares ttt-- 16:41:58 -!- names: rbancroft arbscht gz Demosthenes aking luis kom_ mornfall Quadrescence NNshag cmatei fmu fda314925 lnostdal pavelludiq clog cmeow dto qebab dmiles_afk ryepup moocow lukjad007 mrSpec Tristam eldragon mtd beach addled stoop dfox sjbach hohum legumbre retupmoca skeptomai|away stassats` Holcxjo cods Aisling tltstc clop RaceCondition holycow Borbus hypno slyrus Ri- Phoodus dostoyevsky bipt` bakkdoor hoeq_ [df] z0d dsop pkhuong guenthr cpt_nemo Raptelan tic nha 16:41:58 -!- names: lpolzer Tabmow 16:41:58 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:21 emma [~em@cpe-72-225-241-65.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:21 -!- emma [~em@cpe-72-225-241-65.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:43:21 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:43:35 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:44:16 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-6.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:44:53 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:52:33 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066169.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 16:54:50 ejs [~eugen@94-248-109-113.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 16:56:16 fe[nl]ix: Can foreign functions allocate vectors that can become static vectors without copying? 16:57:43 soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 16:59:03 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 17:01:32 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066169.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:02:23 xffff [~fffff@i59F79E7E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:02:29 HET2 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:02:42 I am not too sure what lisp is trying to tell me there :/ -> Result is a (VALUES (INTEGER -2 -1) &OPTIONAL), not a (MOD 536870909). 17:03:25 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:04:00 alexsuraci [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:15 -!- alexsuraci [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:04:17 the compiler believes it knows that the inferred/declared return type differs from what is actually returned 17:04:20 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:04:40 nowhereman [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 one is either -1 or -2, and the other is some value below 536870909 17:04:58 LiamH: I'm not sure I understand the question. static vectors must be created on the lisp side 17:05:36 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:06:00 hi antifuchs :) 17:06:01 ltns 17:06:10 hey het (-: 17:06:12 indeed! 17:06:16 antifuchs, and yes but what can i do about that 17:06:44 this is what i am trying to do -> (min 0 (- (position (ontoro-word row) paragraph) 2)) 17:06:49 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:58 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:34 fe[nl]ix: That's the answer I was looking for. Not exactly the one I'd like, but that's the way it is. We have some foreign libraries that malloc their own vectors and I was hoping there was a way to get lisp to use them directly. 17:07:59 ok; the POSITION will return NIL if (ontoro-word row) isn't found in paragraph 17:08:19 that doesn't work with MIN, which expects something numeric 17:08:20 but i am quite certain that it will be found there... 17:08:30 I'm not sure if the compiler believes you (-: 17:08:38 HET2: are you using the result as an index into an array? 17:08:55 but that might not be the root cause of the problem... 17:09:00 Xach, no as an arg to subseq 17:09:05 HET2: because (min 0 -1) is -1, and that's not a valid index. 17:09:13 oh hrm 17:09:16 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 17:09:19 stupid me 17:09:22 thx 17:09:37 voila it compiles 17:09:37 neat 17:09:47 HET2: btw, there's a lispmeeting in vienna on the 27th of feb 17:10:00 antifuchs, unfortunately i am lisping from the uk these days 17:10:18 ooh, I see it has been a very long time (: 17:10:35 well i haven't been here for too long 17:10:37 about a year 17:11:31 antifuchs, what are you up to these days 17:11:41 antifuchs, i stumbled about a blog entry of yours about marriage not too long ago 17:11:47 does that have any context? *wink*wink* 17:12:50 hah - yeah, it does. I'm going to get married in may (: 17:12:55 congrats 17:13:02 cheers (: 17:13:14 indeed, congrats 17:13:57 LiamH: you'd need a vector whose header is allocated in lisp space, pointing to the foreign memory. AFAIK only Allegro can do that, but it's not exported 17:14:58 fe[nl]ix: OK, good to know. 17:15:12 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-109-113.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:15:55 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:17 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066156.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 17:18:18 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:22:20 What do you guys think of Arc, *other* than it being incomplete? 17:22:52 i think it's a joke 17:23:09 "meh" 17:23:09 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 17:23:14 what is the meaning of 'making a language' 17:23:34 @Darxus 17:23:58 Guest33783 [~me@pool-173-75-5-88.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:09 antifuchs, I cannot think of a more appropriate comment on Arc either :/ 17:24:38 "What is a language? A miserable little pile of semantics!" 17:25:39 hah 17:25:50 :) 17:26:46 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-053-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 17:27:39 stassats`: Literally? You think its intended to be funny, not used? 17:27:54 soupdragon: I do not understand your question. 17:28:26 Darxus: not literally 17:28:39 Darxus, I am thinking more generally than just about Arc -- because there are a lot of similar projects right now (mostly by less famous people though) 17:28:50 i think pg is sincere 17:29:22 Darxus, since I don't think there is any value the actual results they produce, hopefully there is something to learn from the general phenomenon 17:30:50 kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:31:13 -!- Guest33783 [~me@pool-173-75-5-88.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:31:23 soupdragon: I think your question was poorly worded. 17:31:33 okay 17:32:17 soupdragon: You think there are no useful results from trying to create an ideal language? 17:32:31 no I didn't mean that 17:32:41 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:32:48 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066156.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:32:48 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:33:05 soupdragon: I'm having difficulty coming up with a different interpretation of what you said. 17:33:38 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:16 Darxus, well I checked out arc and he uses CCC instead call-with-current-continuation and some things like that -- It's not really anything fundamental or insightful that I can take from that 17:34:32 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066156.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 17:34:54 Darxus, so maybe there is something to be learned not from the actual language these folks have made but the process they went through and why 17:34:58 Arc is a crappy scheme mixes with a crappy lisp 17:35:04 it's a perlified scheme 17:35:10 slyrus_ [~slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 17:35:13 xinming [~hyy@122.238.64.70] has joined #lisp 17:35:22 -!- joga [joga@83.150.90.112] has quit [Changing host] 17:35:22 joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 17:35:46 a nefarious plan with a funny speech impediment 17:35:57 the only thing to be learned from it is that PG doesn't know quite what he's doing. 17:36:15 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:28 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 17:36:33 soupdragon: What about the language itself? Do you think its creation and development are useful? It seems to me like it's a great idea and that I will one day want to do all my programming in Arc. So I'm... looking for guidance on where I should direct my energy. 17:36:46 Darxus, no, I don't think there is any value in the language itsself 17:36:52 soupdragon: Why not? 17:37:26 Darxus, I think it's a bag of rubbish but I am trying to be positive about this because there are hundreds of people making new languages just as uninteresting and unoriginal 17:37:36 Heh. 17:37:39 some of these people don't even know who Guy Steele is 17:38:02 I don't know who Guy Steele is :P But I'm not trying to make a language. And I'll go look him up. 17:38:51 Darxus: what makes you think Arc is a great idea? because PG told you so? 17:39:16 so it is a worthwhile and educational pursuit to implement a simple lisp (or whatever other language) yourself -- but the phenomena where thousands flock toward these folks... it's something interesting 17:39:33 "we are the language makers" 17:39:39 stassats`: :D 17:39:55 drewc: I think attempting to make an ideal really high level language is a nice idea. And I do not yet understand where Arc fails at this, so it seems like Arc is a nice idea. 17:40:24 Darxus: ok, so you're completely new to programming? 17:40:49 drewc: I have years of experience with perl, but that's about it. You can call that "completely new to programming" if you like :) 17:41:42 That's where I was when I got started with Lisp. 17:41:47 Darxus: ok, i will :). Point i'm trying to make is that an experience developer would know that there is no such things as an 'ideal really high level language'.. it's an impossible goal :) 17:41:49 sellout too, I think! 17:41:53 Xach: me too! 17:42:01 God you all suck :-) 17:42:24 Darxus: and, FWIW, i bought into pg's particular brand of bullshite too :) 17:42:26 drewc: Ah but the impossibility of a goal often doesn't make it unworthy of pursuing :) 17:42:37 drewc: It is easy to buy into :) 17:42:38 Darxus: I've heard a couple relevant quips on the topic. 17:42:41 Very sexy. 17:42:52 Darxus: no, not for the pursuer... but he's convinced you that his shit smells like roses 17:43:05 drewc: Yes. How does it not? 17:43:14 if it's not impossible it's not worth doing? 17:43:24 Darxus: it is unworthy of you to pursue someone's toy lisp as if it is a real relevant research project into the future of programming langauges 17:43:37 drewc: Why? 17:43:50 Darxus: I suggest to go and grab a copy of SICP, read through it. You'll probably learn a lot more than trying to learn Arc. 17:43:56 *Xach* has lost the quips 17:43:57 Darxus: because you are wasting your time following around an ego, rather than learning anything useful 17:44:10 *Xach* goes on a quiphunt 17:44:10 drewc: But how do I identify Arc as something not useful? 17:44:11 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:44:16 drewc, I feel like this too but it's hard to get people to realize this... 17:44:27 drewc, I would have said the same about python and ruby and stuff like that 17:44:40 soupdragon: what, that they are crap? 17:44:42 ah yes, http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3114703986711421@naggum.no.html has one of the quips. 17:44:49 but there's so many people into these that they cannot possibly be wrong (and it must be me) 17:44:53 tarbo_ [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 17:44:54 -!- stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:45:00 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-248-95.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:11 drewc, well I wouldn't say crap.. if no lisp existed except arc -- it would be pretty cool and we could learn a lot from it 17:45:15 soupdragon: billions of flies love to eat shit... i prefer fruit 17:45:17 drewc, more like redundant 17:45:25 soupdragon: yeah, like what not to do 17:45:32 soupdragon: lisp 1.5 is crap too ;) 17:45:36 -!- benny [~benny@i577A33C1.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:45:51 (CL is less crap then many other languages) 17:45:53 drewc: compared to FORTRAN and IPL? 17:46:02 Xach: Did you want me to read that whole page? 17:46:08 pjb: no, compared to CL and scheme 17:46:18 pjb: hindsight is 20/20 17:46:25 -!- NNshag [~shag@lns-bzn-54-82-251-121-229.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46:40 Sure. So let's compare arc vs. CL. 17:47:25 Darxus: It won't hurt. 17:48:29 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:48:34 pjb: right, that's what we were doing.... soupdragon was making the point that if no lisp existed Arc would be cool and we could learn from it... i was saying that regardless, it's still crap. 17:49:31 drewc, I saw it as basically a clone with different names (and a few tacky features like implicit lambda and : for composition) -- fundamentally it's the same as scheme i.e. it's nothing new 17:50:07 drewc: Do you feel that a better language could be created? Do you think a collective attempt is worthwhile for the resulting product? 17:50:14 and in general, you get the perl clones, C clones... etc 17:50:21 Darxus: define 'better'? 17:50:41 Darxus: better at what? 17:50:44 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@119.224.32.224] has joined #lisp 17:50:49 drewc: Something that you would like to use instead of existing languages. 17:50:53 Better at everything. 17:51:16 Darxus: What's the best car? 17:51:28 Or the best notebook? 17:51:30 I'm quite familiar with the problem with such questions. 17:51:31 because these people don't know who Guy Steele is, I mean they don't have roots, there's a lot if inbreeding in this arena -- (or everyones valuing something quality that I can't perceive) 17:51:33 The best operating system? 17:51:43 It doesn't invalidate the question. 17:52:08 Darxus: you seem quite naïve about engineering ... it's all trade offs, including programming language design. 17:52:13 -!- tarbo_ [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:52:21 I'm aware. 17:52:48 drewc: Do you think a language could be created that would make lisp not worth using? 17:53:27 only lisp can replace lisp 17:53:36 Do i think a musician could release a record that would make Django obsolete? 17:54:24 drewc: That seems like an absurd comparison. 17:54:39 Darxus: how so? 17:54:57 Darxus: does lisp make ksh not worth using? 17:55:06 drewc: Are there any programming languages that were once very useful, but are now completely obsolete? 17:55:09 Darxus: i guess most of us rather just answer productive questions, rather than trying the philosophical ones without real answers. :) 17:55:10 do i scoff C now that i know forth? 17:55:12 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066156.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:56:05 Darxus: i have not heard of anyone writing anything in BLISS in quite a while after ITS shutdown... 17:56:06 hypno: I think the question of whether or not a better language than lisp could be created is productive. 17:56:46 *stassats`* forgot all he knew about C, python, and perl after learning CL 17:57:11 Darxus: i see. well, good luck with that then. 17:57:16 Darxus: it's not... is a pointless and masterbatory question ;) 17:57:41 Darxus: In what respects will the answer help you? 17:58:01 Ah, yes, that answer... answers my questions on that subject. 17:58:24 tcr: That answer will help me decide if I should put my energy into the developement of attempts at better languages. 17:58:45 Darxus: You should put your energy into getting the fundamentals right. 17:58:49 Darxus: The only people who ask that question here are the ones who haven't yet learned Lisp. 17:58:56 Hah. 17:59:00 That makes sense. 17:59:05 I am working on learning lisp. 17:59:12 Darxus: if you don't know enough about languages to answer your question, what makes you think you can better them? 17:59:37 At the moment I'm reading a book of Graham's, because it's free. I'm open to other suggestions, but unlikely to actually buy anything at the moment. 17:59:46 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:51 minion: pcl? 17:59:52 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:59:54 Darxus: once you can answer your questions by yourself with your own knowledge, then you might be in a position to improve things 17:59:55 Darxus: I recommend sicp, it's available online, too. 17:59:55 -!- fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 18:00:01 it is free 18:00:02 minion: gentle? 18:00:02 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 18:00:07 minion: sicp? 18:00:07 sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 18:00:10 Darxus: And it comes with video lectures of the original authors. 18:00:25 drewc: I think it's obvious that they could be improved. That anything could be improved. And that I could invest the time and energy to learn enough to be able to improve them. 18:00:27 Darxus: I'm not saying that "once you learn Lisp, your eyes will be open" or anything like that, but I think there is a common pattern with newcomers which you also seem to be following. 18:00:37 -!- lispm [~joswig@g224126203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:01:06 drewc: I realize I am not currently in a position to create a better language. But I am in a position to begin research on what would be a better language, or help with someone else's. 18:01:18 Help in what way? 18:01:19 Darxus: how can something you know nothing about be obvious to you? I detect a hint of arrogance in your thought process ;) 18:01:29 Darxus: And I think most people here would agree that the best course of action would be to stop worrying for a moment about investing your energy into the theoretical best language and just learn Lisp (or scheme or some other decent language) well. 18:01:32 Darxus: why do you think you are in such a position? 18:02:21 Darxus: no you're not.. you're in a position to begin learning about language design... you have no idea what better or worse is, so should not be attempting to focus on it! 18:03:09 Darxus: do not underestimate the man-decades that have gone into PL research. 18:03:18 I agree that my energy would currently be best focused on learning lisp. 18:03:33 I'm just very curious what comes after that. 18:03:33 You won't regret it! 18:03:43 You will be older and wiser then. 18:03:43 Desperation 18:03:51 Darxus: in 10 years, you'll know. 18:03:57 a job, other priorities, etc. 18:03:57 Hah. 18:04:12 (thinks i'm kidding) 18:04:13 and 10 yers. Gah. People keep pretending CL is dificult 18:04:23 cue link to norvig's "teach yourself programming in 10 years" 18:04:27 http://norvig.com/21-days.html 18:04:30 drewc: I don't think you're kidding. I think it's funny. 18:04:55 benny [~benny@i577A3DA1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:04:57 prxq: i'm 6 years in, full time, and still learning something new every day. 18:05:11 prxq: i suspect that even after 10 there is lots to do 18:05:11 drewc: that was fast 18:05:25 stassats`: where does the time go? 18:05:27 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:05:31 nowhereman [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:34 lispm [~joswig@g224123109.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:40 oh... he means the link 18:05:44 drewc: ok, black belt 13 dan status - ok! 18:05:46 *drewc* gets his coffee 18:05:54 yes, link 18:05:55 lol @ 13 dan 18:06:04 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 18:06:06 prxq: only a black belt would be considering making a better martial art 18:06:11 s/would/should 18:06:41 of the highest dan... hopefully in multiple martial arts 18:06:48 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:07:22 Darxus: is Karate better than Taekwon do? 18:08:12 heh 18:08:25 only if your kung fu is weak 18:08:30 this ^ 18:08:31 drewc: Depends on how you train and what you intend to use it for 18:08:34 (: 18:08:45 schme: yes, my point exactly :) 18:08:49 oh 18:08:57 *schme* maybe should read further back than just two lines. 18:09:14 *prxq* is searching for the minsky quote on learning lisp, and faling 18:09:40 something like "everyone can learn lisp in a day, except if they knew fortran, then it takes three days" 18:09:44 drewc: one can argue that every real practitioner of martial arts creates his/her/its own, by adapting what he/she/it knows to new experience 18:09:46 -!- tankrim [~qsvans@c-eefce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 18:09:49 Darxus: lets just say that PG is not the Bruce Lee of lisp 18:10:04 Yup, Guy Steele sounds pretty impressive. 18:10:09 p_l: one could argue the same thing about a practicioner of programming.. which again was my point 18:10:20 Nor is PG lisp's Jackie Chan ;-) 18:10:42 Chuck Norris? 18:10:49 I don't know if you have to be expert user to do language design. I suppose PL research happens at its own level of discourse. 18:11:05 drewc: Yes, Karate is better than Taekwon do :P Because Tae Kwon Do is purely for sport. I realize my preferences are different from other people's and there must be people who think Tae Kwon Do has a reason to exist. 18:11:21 Darxus, I think he's an important person if you are interested in language design -- but of course there's more than one guy in this game :p 18:11:49 cools [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:52 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:11:58 Darxus: there's a big difference between someone learning martial arts for sports, for "self defence", or for "old style application" ;-) 18:12:04 lispm: yeah. graham can be chuck norris... all norris ever came up with was those jeans that you could kick people and still look like a cowboy in. 18:12:20 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:12:45 haha 18:12:48 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:13:21 maybe he is Steven Seagal? 18:13:34 ;-) 18:14:33 does he have a ponytail? 18:14:46 -!- nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 18:15:29 prxq: i don't know if you have to be an expert level user to design languages, but i know that you should be. 18:16:18 but from the little I've seen of Arc, it's just fiddling with some syntactic layers, and not really changing any programming paradigms at all. Fiddling for the sake of fiddling. 18:16:49 arc competes with PHP, not CL 18:17:10 so yeah, does that really count as anything "new" or actual "language design"? rather than just some utility sugar for one person's definition of sugar? 18:17:14 nowhere_man pasted "Error while loading ZeroMQ" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94156 18:17:16 Phoodus: IIRC, PG's main design criterion is to make a language that's popular somehow. 18:17:41 has anybody tried cl-zmq? it's the cffi binding for ZeroMQ, a fast messaging system 18:17:47 -!- kami`` is now known as kami 18:17:48 Arc :the Menuedo of lisp 18:17:49 he wants to have a 'hacker language', writing web stuff as short as possible 18:18:10 menudo* 18:18:20 mdo 18:18:40 too many chars 18:18:48 drewc: I can come up with arguments against that. You do not have to be a top race car driver to design race cars. 18:18:54 So what do you thik of ruby? 18:19:04 and there we go with a car analogy :O) 18:19:10 I try not to think of ruby 18:20:03 prxq: no, but i'm willing to bet that all race car design teams have an experienced driver consulting... you don't use a race car to build another race car... the same is not true of programming languages ;) 18:20:56 Homer Simpson consulted on a car. 18:20:57 oh, and then there is actual measurements and fluid dynamics and hardcore engineering... 18:20:59 I wouldn't say you need a programming language to design a programming language. 18:21:00 prxq: and i'm willing to also bet the all the engineers at, say, porshe are avid drivers... pro-am even. 18:21:15 oh I'm not so sure 18:21:33 many current discussions about programming language designs is free from being related to any actually programming problems 18:22:02 especially in FP 18:22:04 Darxus: I think you'll find that most people here hold CL as a better language than others, thus when asking about any other language the typical response will be "it sucks" 18:22:27 that's not what we are saying 18:23:12 we are saying that there are totally normal cars that help you do your business and support your transportation needs 18:23:12 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-8-26.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:16 but still, "what do you think about X" is pretty subjective 18:23:18 without warp engines 18:23:23 without wings 18:23:30 without all that fancy stuff 18:23:38 like advanced type systems 18:23:39 (without a wing and warp-engine factory in the trunk) 18:23:39 lispm: i don't know. There's discussion on programming languages for concurrency, for instance. 18:23:59 and? 18:24:13 well, they are being ignored by HPC people. Rather badly, btw 18:24:28 Darxus, you do need a programming language to design a programming language, unless you don't indent to interpret/compile your language on/for a computer, or you're willing to write your entire interpreter/compiler in machine code 18:24:28 prxq: probably because HPC people are interested in parallelism. 18:24:30 what are your 'concurrency' problems? 18:24:52 intend* 18:24:53 well, ok, wrong word 18:24:54 and not just parallelism, but balancing pipelines 18:24:54 Adlai: machine code is a programming language ;) 18:25:01 problems people have is calculating simulation models 18:25:04 Adlai: No, you need a programming language to *create* a programming language. You don't need a programing language to do the design. Like Lisp. 18:25:13 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-71-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:25:17 fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:25:36 Darxus, LISP was designed in LISP. Other dialects of lisp were successively designed on top of it, or in reference to it. 18:25:41 lispm: I've heard talks from HPC people on how they need new programming languages. 18:25:41 drewc, ok, ok... :P 18:25:55 I need new shoes 18:26:01 Darxus: yes you do.... you need at least one programming language to properly design another.... you have to compile to _something_ .. that's the whole point :) 18:26:10 Adlai: A language can't be created in itself. First the building blocks were created out of nothing. 18:26:11 Darxus: lisp is not esperanto ;) 18:26:11 * Arc programmers may disagree 18:26:23 *Adlai* is quoting some fine graham parody 18:26:36 Adlai: Lisp was discovered... not created ;) 18:26:42 sorry, that was for Darxus 18:26:44 Heh. 18:27:16 Darxus, have you looked at the original LISP memo? 18:27:22 Adlai: No. 18:27:33 you mean the one where he designs lisp in lisp? 18:27:35 :D 18:28:05 Darxus, there's an HTMLized version on pjb's website: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html 18:28:06 M-Expressions were funny 18:28:15 drewc: he expresses lisp in lisp. The design was probably done in math natural language. 18:28:23 *p_l* once read a LISP manual that used M-Expressions 18:28:41 pkhuong: yeah, that's probably true. 18:28:47 you may want to read the "lite" version on pg's site -- http://paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html 18:29:04 Guest57010 [~me@pool-173-75-5-88.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:06 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-68-55-225-191.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:26 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-68-55-225-191.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:54 I love that PG's paper. 18:29:57 is lisp not the outcome of propositional calculus ? 18:30:01 yes that's a great paper 18:30:24 can't say that I liked anything else he wrote 18:30:39 I'm surprised, pg hasn't ranted yet about the iPad 18:30:56 *Adlai* was expecting something like "Apple's Latest Mistake"... 18:31:09 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-89-27.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:31:37 does ipad use {} too? 18:31:42 Darxus, are you reading PCL or Gentle Intro? 18:31:46 Adlai: some variation on "hackers won't like it" :-) 18:31:58 haha 18:32:05 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 18:32:29 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 18:32:48 I think hackers will like it. They can read Hacker News from it, and isn't that all that hackers do nowadays anyway? 18:33:24 the iPad is the perfect complement to Arc -- one is the castrated server, the other is the powerless client. 18:33:36 heh 18:34:18 the iPad would be wondeful to run something like Squeak 18:34:38 castrated? i think PG prefers the word 'unix' 18:34:51 "only fools and geniuses insist on implementing their own languages, and you can never tell which is which until afterwards." 18:34:52 it'll run X/vns and SSH fine. 18:35:29 It would run LispWorks and its GUI with touch screen keyboards fine 18:35:35 parentheses to the front 18:35:37 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:01 prxq: and even then... took me a few years to figure out which camp Larry Wall was in ;) 18:36:05 -!- Guest57010 [~me@pool-173-75-5-88.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:36:15 drewc: heh 18:36:23 Larry Wall? isn't he the guy who wrote patch(1) ? 18:36:25 I like that program. 18:36:39 he did rn too ... i used to use that! 18:36:46 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:36:49 lispm: bluetooth keyboard ;) 18:37:06 drewc, I wonder what became of him. I guess it's good he stopped writing software at that point, before he made any big mistakes. 18:37:07 pkhuong: or the keyboard dock! good idea! 18:37:17 Adlai: 18:37:18 :D 18:37:27 pkhuong: no mouse 18:37:55 lispm: seriously, if its screen somehow works well in the sun, I'm sold. 18:38:02 apple has been trying for years to get rid of that last button and the pointer... well done lads! 18:38:22 pkhuong: that part actually I am not so sure of 18:38:49 pkhuong: but it would also be important for me that it works in brighter surroundings 18:38:53 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:39:04 -!- marioxcc-AFK [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:10 dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:39 are all ARM processors non-64bit ? 18:41:35 lispm: there's no 64bit ARM variant 18:41:37 AFAIK. 18:41:58 aha 18:42:01 ARM specified 32bit registers and *at least* 24(?)bit addressing 18:42:03 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:43:07 dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:09 there's also Thumb, which uses 16bit addressing iirc 18:44:48 I believe Thumb is purely an instruction coding 18:44:56 Phoodus: Correct. 18:44:57 the register & addressing widths are all still the same 18:45:05 lispm: when you want embedded 64bit (or other designs that require higher numerical performance, usually POWER/PPC or MIPS are used) 18:45:33 or now 64bit Atom CPUs, probably? 18:45:35 speaking of which, did anything happen to the SiCortex IP yet? :( 18:45:37 NEON if you need to work with 64bit integers. 18:46:00 lispm: an ULV Core would be better than Atom. 18:46:19 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:46:23 lispm: Atom afaik doesn't really excel in performance/power compared to some embedded hw 18:46:38 Much better perf/W ratio, go in powersaving mode more often. 18:46:39 marioxcc [~user@201.132.137.230] has joined #lisp 18:46:39 heh ... for the first time ever, i just wished that CL required explicit RETURNs from functions... thank foo we have catch/throw! 18:48:01 Adlai: Gentle Intro was sounding good. 18:48:08 doesn't defun automatically create a block you can return from? 18:48:48 Darxus, it's a great book that covers both the basics of high-level programming and the basics of common lisp 18:48:50 Phoodus: it does, named after the function 18:48:54 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:12 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-248-95.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 18:50:34 Phoodus: in my case, returning is actually the problem... i don't want the function to return... i want it to call its continuation.. if we used explicit RETURN's everywhere, i could just renmane it/shadow it/whatever.. it's explicit. Since it's not, i have to use block and catch/throw 18:51:39 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-248-95.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:45 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 18:54:21 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:30 It's funny... since i've been reading/writing a lot of haskell, it has changed my lisp style a little.... i find myself writing more _imperative_ style code since my exposure to Haskell! 18:54:51 drewc: that's interesting. Any explanation for that? 18:55:03 prxq: yeah, monads 18:55:07 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:55:09 Haskell-style imperative? 18:55:17 lispm: LET* 18:55:31 drewc: you lost me 18:55:32 Dorian [~Dorian@129.10.231.169] has joined #lisp 18:55:52 Erlang taught me why monads would be beneficial :) 18:56:16 prxq, "let* him explain" = imperative 18:56:23 (after the failure for getting an explanation from myriad monad writeups) 18:56:26 as long as you don't do (let (a b c d) (setq a bla) (setq b (+ a foo) ...)) 18:56:34 prxq: Monads, especially using the do notation, are for writing imperative code in functional languages :) 18:56:36 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-13460.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:57:04 So if you're still learning stuff about lisp every day after 6 years, wouldn't that make it a terrible language for a large company where code is going to be maintained by people who didn't write it? 18:57:06 lispm: nah, no setq... i mean haskell style imperative... Administrative Normal Form :) 18:57:24 Darxus: people still learn things about Java after 6 years 18:57:31 Darxus: that doesn't follow 18:57:45 If you're not continually learning, it's a programmer problem, not a language problem 18:57:47 since I'm ready old Lisp code, I'm always tempted to use TAGBODY 18:57:51 rading 18:57:54 reading 18:57:57 lispm: PROG ftw! 18:58:02 right! 18:58:10 drewc, LET* + TAGBODY = PROG* 18:58:13 knobo [~user@ti0073a340-0010.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:58:16 *prxq* uses prog/tagbody every now and then 18:58:22 Adlai: + block IIRC 18:58:30 I always think that I need a problem that allows me to use PROGV 18:58:37 well right. I'm just saying, PROG* > PROG 18:58:39 lispm: i use progv all the time actually 18:58:47 Adlai: fair 'nuff :) 18:58:55 there is this stuff in ANSI CL and I don't use it, damn! 18:59:01 drewc: can you paste an example of that let* monad business? 18:59:02 it's the "star program feature" 18:59:02 drewc: great 18:59:14 er s/star/stellar/ 18:59:37 lispm, do you use ed? 18:59:43 yes 18:59:44 clhs ed 18:59:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ed.htm 18:59:51 hehe 19:00:12 actually quite often 19:00:13 How is lisp for maintainability then? I get the impression that perl is bad, and python is better than perl. 19:00:51 prxq: LET* is just the identity monad .... (let* ((a b) (b c)) (+ a b)) is do {a <- b; b <- c; a + b} 19:01:08 Darxus, it's rather straightforward to get "out of date" lisp code to run in a modern CL system 19:01:09 Darxus: actually quite good. I can't really explain why. 19:01:32 Lisp lends itself to short, clear functions that are easily organized 19:01:35 one nice feature is the package system, which lets you create your own namespaces if, for example, the code you wish to load uses wonky versions of builtins 19:01:37 I read a question from a guy recently 19:01:48 he maintains an old Lisp software thing 19:01:53 Darxus: what's nice about lisp is that there is not as much code to maintain ;) 19:02:00 that too 19:02:00 that too! 19:02:05 he was asking for a tool to take a function apart, into two smaller functions 19:02:13 with an editor command 19:02:16 drewc: Thanks. I don't get that. 19:02:21 I've got a prolog-in-lisp that's getting close to SWI-prolog's speed, in less than 4kloc of heavily commented & test-cased code 19:02:35 problem: is source code lines are 15kloc in single files 19:02:46 drewc: you missed a return. 19:02:46 and the functions are 2kloc long 19:02:54 Adlai: I don't mean out of date code. I mean if I put code down for 6 months, will I then be able to read it, unlike perl? 19:02:59 and he got lots of Lisp code 19:03:05 pkhuong: i did too 19:03:08 I guess he has a maintenance problem 19:03:34 drewc: that's what sucks about generic code without static checking (: 19:03:51 pkhuong: funny cause it's true :) 19:03:54 Darxus: the language itself will only go as far as the user knows how to lay out good API boundaries, well-named functions, and good comments 19:04:03 regardless of which one you're talkinga bout 19:04:11 drewc: but I'm starting to suspect that after digging through all the type/monad forest, one ends up programming in Haskell like everybody else everywehere. Is that true? 19:04:13 Darxus: well, of course. however, there are many aspects to this, but you need to have stared learning before they make sense. 19:04:35 prxq: for the most part, yeah... just with different building blocks. 19:04:51 prxq: i don't claim to be a haskell expert though... i could be doing it wrong. 19:05:08 prxq: i just needed to learn about monads, because they are useful to me in my work :) 19:05:25 i only learned haskell so i could learn to read the notation in the papers i read :) 19:05:40 Darxus: I've written code in a hurry, and been able to successfully read and modify it years afterwards. I had a different experience with C for instance. 19:05:43 Darxus: from my own, extremly painful experience, all i can say is that you should investigate the existing systems in Common Lisp and try to make full use of them. do /not/ start inventing shit for the sake of inventing (it will look like Scheme). learn and use CLOS and all the other cool stuff in the language. 19:06:12 drewc: ok! 19:06:16 yes, always try to use a language as it itself is intended to be used. Don't try to take your old idioms and force the language to work that way 19:06:41 if something is clunky, look for better examples or library functions to utilize 19:06:49 prxq: basically the entire point of monads is to allow you to write code like in an imperative, stateful language, but still reason about it. 19:07:00 prxq: monads in haskell* 19:07:02 that's moderately true. I think CL is rather forgiving on that front compared to other languages. 19:07:43 drewc: I am rather curious about monads, but I haven't found an explanation that did not require learning Haskell first. 19:07:55 here, let me explain from Erlang 19:08:06 the mathematical definition of monad seems rather unrelated 19:08:06 {Item, Rest} = parseItem(Input) 19:08:11 prxq: monads are just a protocol 19:08:13 {Item2, Rest2} = parseItem(Rest) 19:08:17 {Item3, Rest3} = parseItem(Rest2) 19:08:18 etc 19:08:29 Phoodus: please, that's not helping 19:08:30 Phoodus: so far, so good :-) 19:08:35 paste it! 19:08:40 prxq, what is the mathematical definition for? 19:08:41 lisppaste: url? 19:08:41 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:08:59 -!- lispm [~joswig@g224123109.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:00 with monads, you just do Item = parseItem(), Item2 = parseItem(), etc. The actual state change that the Rest* variables hold are held in "side-band" data, which is the monad 19:09:17 that's just ONE monad Phoodus 19:09:24 there are different ones 19:09:25 that's enough 19:09:31 kwinz3 [kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 19:09:32 monads are syntactic sugar that actually expand your code to passing that state around 19:09:37 no they don't :P 19:09:41 yes, this is the simple version 19:09:52 all monads are the same in the end.... they all follow the laws :) 19:09:53 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 19:10:00 well be careful that you don't simplify to the point of saying something incorrect 19:10:10 people fear that way too much 19:10:20 soupdragon: I see in wikipedia that there is more than one. i thought of the category-theoretic one. 19:10:20 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-10201.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:22 the point is to teach enough to be a springboard to deal with details later 19:10:22 soupdragon: all monads are monads... is that too simple? 19:10:25 ones that you dont' hit up front 19:10:28 Phoodus: hmm, so Rest is locally bound in parseItem() and all state is maintained within that function/environment? 19:10:46 parseItem() knows that it uses the "Input" monad 19:10:57 and has 2 return values, your visible return, and the new monad state 19:10:58 hypno: no, the state is maintained in the monadic container itself 19:11:09 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:46 monads are two functions ... UNIT (or return, or result) which wraps a value in a container, and BIND, which takes a value wrapped in a container, unwraps it, and passed it to a function. 19:11:59 but the thing is, afaik you cannot hold on to prior states of a monad (am I right?) 19:12:08 so there's no difference between that and pure imperative 19:12:14 Phoodus: you could. 19:12:18 Phoodus: sure you could. 19:12:24 I mean in Haskell? 19:12:32 can you get a prior IO monad state and work on it? 19:12:38 Phoodus: not the IO monad. 19:12:43 heh 19:12:49 That's what makes it work (modulo fork magic). 19:13:02 keep in mind that the IO monad is very special... 19:13:03 ejs [~eugen@94-248-11-170.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 19:13:04 You have to be careful not to confuse an instance of monads with monads. 19:13:13 you can't write it in haskell, for one. 19:13:20 so basically, things like the IO monad is just Haskell stroking its functional ego, even though its final exposed semantics are purely imperative >:-) 19:13:29 Phoodus: absolutely not. 19:13:31 Phoodus: no 19:13:53 It's about expressing steps in a computation as generic function calls. 19:14:36 Once that's done, you get to do anything a shitload of different things between steps; the List monad for non-determinism is a rather elegant example to me. 19:14:38 as _ordered_ function calls 19:14:46 Phoodus: yes, "steps". 19:14:47 drewc: hmm, "ok". so in the erlang example (well or any) is the monad /itself/ expressed in code, or is it to be understood as a more abstract thing? 19:15:27 The Erlang code with the {Input, Rest} is the real case that is annoying, and would be solved well by monadic style 19:15:34 hypno: the monad is a protocol, an abstract thing... two functions... BIND and UNIT 19:15:42 Item = parseItem() is non-existent in Erlang; that was purely pseudocode 19:15:48 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:16:07 a parser for things is a function from strings to lists of pairs of things and strings 19:16:08 *prxq* finds the wikipedia page on monads confusing 19:16:17 _everything_ written on monads is confusing 19:16:23 prxq: are you familiar with continuations? 19:16:24 Again, the concept isn't an instance of that concept. Just like thinking integers when you hear group isn't going to end well. 19:16:42 i see. my brief encounter with haskell didnt end very well, but i think i'll have to look into this properly if i should understand. thanks. 19:16:42 drewc: i know what they are, yes. Never used them for real, though. 19:16:42 liek I said, it wasn't until I hit the functional syntactical explosion in Erlang that it finally clicked in what they solved 19:16:43 Yeah, it takes a while to get a handle on abstract concepts. 19:16:52 prxq: ok, i have a link that might help 19:17:03 prxq: http://intensivesystems.net/tutorials/cont_m.html 19:17:19 drewc: thanks 19:17:28 lisppaste: url? 19:17:30 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:17:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.73.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:18:06 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:48 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-78-150.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:19:28 drewc pasted "my monadic library" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94160 19:20:05 prxq: that's my monads in CL library that uses contextl to emulate/fake/pretend type-classes 19:20:20 drewc: if you want to support multiple values, why do you require there to be at least one? 19:21:03 also, what's with the funky m-v-c/apply/values in CALL? 19:21:56 pkhuong: how would BIND work when the value is (values)? 19:22:03 drewc: you tell me. 19:22:19 Propagate (values), most of the time, I guess. 19:22:33 re monad-progn, wouldn't you expect (monad-progn foo) to be equivalent to foo? 19:23:06 is it not? i just wrote this code last night.... i have not actually used it yet :) 19:23:39 -!- Dorian [~Dorian@129.10.231.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:49 oh, its not at all 19:23:53 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:24:15 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:24:35 The loss tail-position was suspicious. 19:24:39 *of tail-position 19:24:54 drewc: thanks. but I'm embarrassed to admit that I still don't get it. 19:25:02 prxq: there's nothing to get 19:25:10 that's it, that's all.. bind and return 19:25:11 that would explain it 19:25:37 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-252-126.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 19:25:52 prxq: the power lies in it's ability to hide the 'plumbing' 19:25:56 its 19:26:31 and in the plumbing being somewhere on the pareto front of "as simple as possible, but no simpler" 19:26:33 prxq: so, for example, the continuation monad lets me write code using continuations without having to transform all my code to CPS. 19:27:00 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:27:02 monadic style IS cps 19:27:16 kind of like a pipe, then 19:27:19 soupdragon: not quite, but they are closely related. 19:27:39 echo 1 | f1 | f2 | f3 | cat 19:27:59 if you get the mental picture 19:28:01 prxq: yes, exactly 19:28:16 in fact, BIND is also known as PIPE 19:28:20 think of my erlang example; you're piping in state, not data; data is sent & returned at each pipe between state transitions of the monad 19:28:31 soupdragon: more like ANF (which was, for some time, also known as monadic-normal form). They both sahre the same goal of making evaluation order explicit and independent of the host language. 19:28:31 if you see that you can use delimited continuations to convert programs into CPS style 19:28:32 Isn't the "| cat" bit reduntant? :) 19:28:50 it may become reasonable to think that one can write direct style monadic programs using delimited continuations 19:29:15 soupdragon: and vice versa 19:29:27 useless use of cat :p 19:29:53 *prxq* .oO ( NIL ) 19:29:54 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 19:29:57 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:29:59 antoszka: cat is return and | bind, and indeed, one of the monad laws is that (bind o return) is the identity (: 19:30:08 Hm... 19:30:22 Will think it over, thx :) 19:30:43 pkhuong: aha... 19:31:18 prxq: somewhere if you google enough there is a 'the shell is a monad!' post 19:31:32 *drewc* notes that he has started seeing monads _everywhere_ 19:31:47 drewc: the trick is in recognizing useful ones. 19:31:49 apparently jquery is a monad 19:32:54 why is it possible to yse a GENSYM'ed symbol as a variable name but not say, #:ASDASDASD without getting an error? 19:32:55 soupdragon: afaik not really, but resembles one 19:32:59 yeah, just about everything is a monad, since there are so few constraints. Same with semigroups. Most of the time, you can't exploit that "insight" to do anything. 19:33:10 pkhuong: well, Parser and Continuation are the only ones i've had a practical use for, but recognising the LET* was Identity was an impotant cognitive leap for me. 19:33:22 hehehe 19:33:24 RaceCondition: it is possible. The problem is that you get a fresh (different) symbol each time #:foo is READ. 19:33:27 so if you get really hygienic functional and pure, you end up with - bash??? 19:33:30 _important_ 19:33:31 what do you use Continuation for? :) 19:33:48 soupdragon: my web framework is based around it 19:33:51 ahh 19:33:53 *prxq* scratches head 19:33:55 that's cool 19:34:15 -!- skeptomai|away [~nnnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0] 19:34:18 pkhuong: oh, so in macros it is possible because you actually return the same symbol each time and not a different one with the same name 19:34:29 prxq: it's the ecosystem around these simple laws that are so simple that it's easy to obey them that is useful, especially the static checking. 19:34:29 my request handler dispatch is a loop build on continuations, and the user can use continuations ala SEND/SUSPEND 19:34:46 RaceCondition: you could write (let ((#1=#:foo ...)) #1#) and it'd work. 19:35:02 right, symbol _instances_. It's the interning step that makes all reads hit the same instance from a package holder. #:sym isn't in a package, so no interning 19:35:09 drewc: and would python-style generators be good enough? 19:35:24 pkhuong: i don't think so.. can you reify the continuation? 19:35:26 Phoodus: the package bit is irrelevant. 19:35:30 drewc: let's say you could. 19:35:32 pkhuong: what does that mean exactly? the #1=#:foo syntax? 19:35:35 well, the package is where the single instance is held 19:35:38 pkhuong: is it re-entrant? 19:35:49 (held as in well-known reference to it) 19:36:02 clhs #= 19:36:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 19:36:16 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:36:22 stassats`: thanks 19:36:26 pkhuong: i am ignorant of python, so i'm not sure... 19:37:03 drewc: don't think so. The important restriction I have in mind is that you can only capture a single activation record. 19:37:13 pkhuong: so that's pretty useless for me. 19:37:37 pkhuong: web browsers have 'back' and 'reload' and 'clone' 19:37:49 drewc, pkhuong, Phoodus. Thanks for the help. I think I'm a little closer to getting it. 19:37:51 sure, but let's say you did have cloning. 19:38:02 Would the single activation record restriction be a problem? 19:38:42 pkhuong: is that #n= syntax useful for anything real too? 19:39:02 RaceCondition: yes. Anytime you want sharing or circularity in literal data. 19:39:10 initially, i'll say yes.... but maybe not... it could be that i'm not smart enough or familiar enough with generators to figure it out :D 19:39:22 RaceCondition: just look at the topic ;) 19:39:33 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:39:36 RaceCondition: it's very useful if you want PRINT and READ forms 19:39:49 OK, will keep that in mind :P 19:40:33 OK, so I can do #123=(lambda (x) ... (#123# ...)) 19:40:48 pkhuong: what would the semantics of CLONE-CONTINUATION be? do they share a lexical enironment? are closed over values mutable? 19:41:04 so #n= is basically like a very lightweight inline LET :P 19:41:07 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 19:41:15 hjpark [~user@116.40.135.21] has joined #lisp 19:41:16 RaceCondition: no, not quite. 19:41:34 how does it differ? 19:41:36 RaceCondition: LET creates bindings, #n= is reader syntax 19:42:04 hmm... well yes, but what does it change in reality? 19:42:20 like when you really want to avoid creating a binding? 19:42:23 it means it will try to eval (lambda (x) ... ((lambda (x) ... ((lambda (x)... 19:42:41 Phoodus: OK, so it will error out? 19:42:46 I believe it will 19:42:58 it works purely on the lists that the reader generates 19:43:00 hmm, but how do you achieve recursion with it then? 19:43:10 drewc: depends on the sort of serialisation you want. It's all technical details compared to the main issue re capture depth. 19:43:14 Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-6-24.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:43:14 like when the depth of the recursion is known compile-time? 19:43:15 RaceCondition: (let ((a 2)) (setf a 1)) ... vs #1=2 (setf #1# s) ;) 19:43:54 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-78-150.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:44:00 pkhuong: but i can fake capture depth bu piping them through some sort of transformer that maintains state :P 19:44:14 huh, (setf a '#1=(a . #1#)) makes the repl unhappy 19:44:35 I thought it might capture quoted literals fine 19:44:39 drewc: but what does it give me? your example? why should I want to avoid creating a binding? 19:44:58 drewc: might as well use your current solution if you're going to sprinkle mark up around calls anyway. 19:45:00 RaceCondition: you shouldn't... that why you will always use LET 19:45:16 pkhuong: exactly.. i have not found a cleaner solution then the continuation monad 19:45:42 OK... I was just trying to grasp the usefulness of that read macro 19:46:19 pkhuong: as you well know, when you add block and catch/throw, you can end up with a mLET* that is almost invisible to the user. 19:46:24 prxq pasted "dadaistic monad" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94162 19:46:58 did i get it? 19:47:08 prxq: looks like continations to me 19:47:20 I was thinking it might be good enough for mostly-CRUD style apps, with fairly clear interaction patterns. 19:47:34 drewc: so 'no', I gather 19:47:59 *prxq* tries harder 19:49:23 pkhuong: what is the advantage over, say, CPS or the monad? 19:49:45 pkhuong: you are always a few years ahead of me at this game! :) 19:49:49 I can imagine modifying Python to support that natively. 19:50:00 Python the compiler? 19:50:02 yes. 19:50:05 argh, sorry (: 19:51:07 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:51:28 so, does that get us co-routines or green threads too, or is it a limited thing... 19:51:45 Or, more cleanly, a DSL. The main point is that everything is local, since it only captures the current activation record. 19:51:46 ./me is thinking of CMUCL's mp package 19:52:05 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 19:52:13 yeah, i can see that advantages to that indeed. 19:52:30 no co-routine nor green thread... But I've been told that, e.g., most erlang processes sit around receiving messages only in a small loop. 19:52:32 -!- splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-bzdyrwobeclpgtzw] has quit [Quit: This is over my pay grade. Back to NLP...] 19:54:01 i'd really need a concrete implementation to play with.. unfortunately my mental gymnast seems to be taking a smoke break at the moment 19:54:13 *drewc* pours another cuppa 19:54:36 -!- hjpark [~user@116.40.135.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:57:31 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:00:32 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:05:54 ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 20:11:40 -!- Hali_303 [~Hali_303@5400CCFC.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:13:45 orgullocachanill [~ChorizoGr@201.170.169.40.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:48 It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. What have the niggers in New Orlean 20:13:48 s done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 20:14:16 Sikander [~Sikander@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:14:48 Hi Sikander 20:14:58 LiamH: Hi 20:15:24 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 20:15:25 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*ChorizoGr@*.170.169.40.dsl.dyn.telnor.net 20:15:28 LiamH: I saw quite some activity on the mailing list! 20:15:30 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has been kicked from #lisp 20:15:46 Which I've not had time to attend to, unfortunately. 20:16:04 does anybody who is not a racist use telnor.net? 20:16:06 Ah, time... Why isn't anyone working on a flux capacitor, dammit 20:16:20 Sikander: because no one has the time? 20:16:24 :( 20:16:45 Sikander: Do I remember correctly that you are a TikZ user? 20:16:52 LiamH: Yes 20:17:02 LiamH: Your memory is correct 20:17:33 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 20:18:14 LiamH: Why? 20:20:06 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp121-45-32-142.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:00 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:32 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:22:11 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:07 drewc: in http://www.haskell.org/all_about_monads/html/laws.html, law 3. Where do the parentheses go on the right? I can't discern. 20:23:38 wgl [~wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 20:23:40 is it ((\x -> f x) >>= g) or is it (\x -> (f x >>= g)) 20:23:48 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:24:53 you can view that law in a different way: (f <=< g) <=< h = f <=< (g <=< h) 20:25:05 what is <= prxq: that's associativity. I don't know why they wrote it that way. 20:25:36 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: schoppenhauer] 20:26:48 prxq: it's the latter. 20:27:12 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-11-170.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:27:23 pkhuong: ok, thanks 20:27:35 davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:40 prxq: it's (lambda (x) (call g (funcall f x))) damnit! :) 20:28:10 *drewc* likes bind as CALL, especially for the mutiple values argument 20:28:30 pkhuong: oh, you were asking what was up with the m-v-call wierdnedd 20:28:31 mle [~emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:35 weirdness 20:28:40 *prxq* feels as dense as a neutron star 20:30:02 pkhuong: it's just APPLY obviously, and i would hope the compiler knows that, but i wanted to express in code that it's multiple values we are passing around, not a list of values.. 20:30:56 in these examples, the "f x" has monadic type. I.e, "f 5" would not in any case be a number, but an object of monadic type, right? 20:30:58 pkhuong: don't know if i succeded in that :) 20:31:05 leoncamel [~leoncamel@203-114-213-193.ppp.bbiq.jp] has joined #lisp 20:31:17 drewc: it feels weird to see return in the definition of bind. 20:31:51 prxq: you'd have to define an instance of the monad typeclass for numbers. 20:32:39 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:32:52 pkhuong: I mean if f can be 'sqrt', so that f 4 in fact is 2. 20:33:26 pkhuong: yeah, that is a bit odd.. but i've seen join and return be identical, and join is just a part of bind... right? 20:33:30 it has to type, if that's what you're asking. 20:33:43 pkhuong: i'll change it, it just confuses things 20:33:50 digijohn [~digi@cpe-72-230-244-190.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:12 drewc: bind is a part of join. 20:34:49 gah? I though bind was (join (fmap ...)) .. 20:34:51 pkhuong: I don't know what "to type" means. 20:34:58 digijohn pasted "stream reading weirdness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94163 20:35:07 maybe i'm confused too :) 20:35:10 drewc: they're equivalent, so you can go either way (: 20:35:22 Having a little trouble with reading from a socket 20:35:29 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:41 prxq: it must be possible to assign a type to the expression (and each subexpression). 20:35:50 Looks like I'm reading a character that Lisp is choking on... I'm running SLIME + SBCL on Linux 20:35:52 but I'm going with the clojure example, which says that the function has to be monadic, taking a non-monadic value, and return a monadic value 20:35:57 pkhuong: ok good... i know what i think i know 20:36:05 Anybody know what's up? http://paste.lisp.org/display/94163 20:37:03 digijohn: yes, you are trying to read something as a character that, according to your locale settings, is not a character 20:37:20 minion: tell digijohn about babel 20:37:21 digijohn: have a look at babel: Babel is a charset encoding/decoding library, not unlike GNU libiconv, but completely written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/babel 20:37:28 minion: tell digijohn about flexi-streams 20:37:29 digijohn: direct your attention towards flexi-streams: FLEXI-STREAMS is a library which implements "virtual" bivalent streams that can be layered atop real binary/bivalent streams. http://www.cliki.net/flexi-streams 20:37:39 prxq: not necessarily. The type of >>= says that it takes a value in the monad M, passes that value to the function and returns whatever the function returns. 20:37:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 20:37:51 Usually, everything stays in the same monad, but that's not required at all. 20:37:58 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:38:23 drewc: thanks 20:39:02 pkhuong: uhuh 20:39:04 digijohn: also note that it's a restartable error 20:39:19 clhs find-restart 20:39:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_r.htm 20:39:47 Foofie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:02 ejs [~eugen@94-248-11-170.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 20:41:53 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:42 -!- Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:42:59 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:21 pkhuong: is it ok if I continue asking you about this? 20:44:03 If I'm around... 20:44:04 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:45:23 prxq: "Monads for functional programming", esp section 2, is a paper that i found especially helpful, fwiw 20:45:30 ok :-). In http://www.haskell.org/all_about_monads/html/laws.html, from law 1 I infer that (return 5) creates a monad with the value '5' embedded in it. (return 4) >>= sqrt would be '2' 20:45:39 drewc: flexi-streams look like they'll be solving my problem, thanks 1000 times 20:45:50 is that correct so far? 20:45:59 francogrex [~user@91.180.83.192] has joined #lisp 20:46:05 -!- digijohn [~digi@cpe-72-230-244-190.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:46:18 digijohn: we aim to please! (brought to you by tech.coop) :D 20:46:34 haha 20:46:48 they pay me every time i say it :P 20:46:56 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:47:36 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-10201.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:47:41 prxq: yes. (return o >>=) is the identity. 20:47:43 prxq: you got it yeah 20:47:54 billstclai [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 20:48:15 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by billstclai!~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org))] 20:48:18 -!- Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:20 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 20:48:25 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 20:48:25 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:48:53 so by axiom 3, i could write ((return 16) >>= sqrt) >>= sqrt and get '2' again, right? 20:49:13 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:42 You have to put the value returned by the first sqrt back into a monad. 20:49:59 aaaaahhh ok 20:50:18 *prxq* .oO ( ~light~) 20:50:24 you'd need msqrt 20:50:52 or lift it... or just shove a return in there. 20:51:24 yeah true enough 20:51:34 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:46 anyone ever used autocad? 20:52:06 pkhuong: how would you lift it? 20:52:08 my favorite paper right now is "Function Inheritance: Monadic Memoization Mixins" 20:52:48 francogrex: only a little, so I can't really answer questions about it 20:53:20 pkhuong: like, (return (return 16 >> sqrt)) >> sqrt? 20:53:30 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 20:53:42 prxq: http://www.haskell.org/hoogle/?hoogle=Monad+m+%3D%3E+%28a+-%3E+r%29+-%3E+%28%28m+a%29+-%3E+%28m+r%29%29 20:53:47 an antispambot? 20:54:12 prxq: look at the types, using >> doesn't make any sense. 20:55:07 p_l ok just curiosity tha's all 20:55:43 pkhuong: so, like ((return 16) >>= (lift sqrt)) >> sqrt 20:56:03 ((return 16) >>= (lift sqrt)) >>= sqrt, rather 20:56:10 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:56:19 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 20:56:25 liftM, sure. Or, more explicitly (\x . return $ sqrt x). 20:56:55 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@203-114-213-193.ppp.bbiq.jp] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:57:41 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:49 oh a dollar sign. How cute :-) 20:57:55 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 20:58:48 i still have to mentally translate haskell to a lisp-like before i can start reasoning about the code. it really slows me down :( 20:59:08 I have a theory. Monads would be really easy to understand if (a) a less obscure notation was used and (b) the texts bothered to define things plainly and simply, instead of going from anecdote to anecdote. 20:59:24 prxq: i agree 100% 20:59:26 drewc, doesn't that break it? oh maybe you aren't reading enough programs where that translation would break the program 20:59:44 soupdragon: syntax does not a program make 21:00:03 must have misunderstood you then 21:00:33 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-053-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:49 *drewc* hands soupdragon a http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/syntax/haskell/ 21:01:22 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:02:48 shemale-magic [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:52 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:03:54 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:23 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:04:29 -!- HET2 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:04:30 prxq: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.functional/msg/2fde5545c6657c81 is a good read for a lisper 21:05:03 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:05:40 drewc: is restructuredtext enabled for common-lisp.net trac? 21:05:44 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:20 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:06:39 V-ille: no idea. how would i check? 21:06:54 I suppose it boils down to if python-docutils is installed 21:07:23 see for example http://trac.common-lisp.net/armedbear/wiki/WikiRestructuredText for more information 21:08:04 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-11-170.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:11:06 V-ille: ok, i installed docutils 21:11:12 i'll restart tracd 21:11:18 cool, thanks! 21:11:32 -!- xffff [~fffff@i59F79E7E.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: xffff] 21:12:19 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 21:12:20 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:13:27 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-111-45.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 21:14:32 so, basically, a monad is a type together with a 'return' function, a 'bind' function, and a 'lift' function that satisfy the axioms. as to "the point" of it all, it can be found in the definition of the bind part. 21:14:42 is that correct? 21:14:52 Hi Xach, are you around? 21:15:08 faux` [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:15:47 prxq: you only need return and bind. Everything else follows. 21:16:20 francogrex: I am 21:16:36 pkhuong: that's not really a helpful answer 21:17:05 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:17:29 Lift is (can be) defined with return and bind. 21:18:24 The point of it all is to express combinator patterns in a single shared language, and offer a nice syntax for that language. 21:19:10 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 21:21:36 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-144-225.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:23:11 this is just bastardized maths 21:23:12 TR2N [email@89-180-224-77.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 21:23:50 no, it's algebra. 21:24:15 maths? in my porgamming language 21:24:52 But, like neelk's post points out, the hacking aspect is mostly independent of the CT stuff, once the pattern has been expressed in code. 21:25:20 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:25:54 pkhuong: algerbra is maths, in my book 21:26:05 not bastardised math, though. 21:26:07 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:15 ok, so, bastardized algebra. A clean, simple concept, encrypted by unhelpful terminology and notation 21:27:38 but hey, so be it. 21:27:44 thanks for the help! 21:28:01 gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 21:28:10 prxq: if you can come up with a better inverse-pyramid style summary for the wikipedia article, I am sure cs students all around the world will love you (-: 21:28:35 antifuchs: I fear I could be lynched by giving the plot away :-) 21:29:15 Not any more "unhelpful" than most definitions in algebra. More helpful texts tend to obscure the real meaning with accidents. I'd rather have a correct, if abstruse and abstract, definition, followed by concrete examples and explanations. 21:29:52 pkhuong: me too, but it's not done this way in the texts i've found on the subject. 21:30:38 i just skipped the wikipedia and read the papers... once i got past the notation, i found it easier to understand the references then the 'explanations' and 'tutorials' that reference them :) 21:30:39 *soupdragon* is confused, what is the problem?? 21:30:40 Keep in mind that the two visions of monads (CT and all that versus the down to earth coder's view) conflict a bit too. 21:30:50 they either engage in a labyrinth of anecdotes, or throw a few axioms without bothering to define what things mean. 21:31:03 The CT stuff would be your "labyrinth of anecdotes". 21:31:09 axioms like return is identity? 21:31:21 and not defining what 'return' means? 21:31:21 prxq: but that's the thing, there is no intrinsic meaning to the operators! 21:31:26 Alabaman_ [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:25 the identity monad does absolutely nothing :) 21:33:04 hi, I have two questions on styling conventions, thought I'd paste it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/94165 21:33:52 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:34:19 egn: either of 1 or 2, and 3, not 4. 21:34:29 pkhuong: that is not what you were saying a few lines ago. ((return 16) >>= sqrt ) >>= sqrt was supposed to be wrong. 21:34:36 antifuchs: thanks 21:34:46 egn: #2 and #3 21:34:49 -!- Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:34:50 egn: basically, do whatever emacs tells you (-: 21:34:54 heh, k 21:34:57 err, wait. 21:35:06 antifuchs: emacs is not going to do #1 :) 21:35:07 sorry, yeah. what drewc says. I misread 1. 21:35:10 prxq: it's not wrong, just probably not what you wanted. Read up. 21:35:12 alright, cool 21:35:37 pkhuong: aha, and what did I probably want? 21:35:42 Read what I wrote at 58 minutes ago. 21:35:48 prxq: which monad is that 21:35:49 ? 21:35:57 prxq: to stick to the same monad through out the computation. 21:37:39 drewc: that would be the identity monad 21:38:02 Xach; you mentioned in my cll post in a reply that you use to write bytes to an output stream to make gif pictures; are those references to your libraries (cl-vecto etc) or do you have like short sample codes lying around? 21:38:32 drewc: any monad, actually. 21:38:48 (if a return is inserted) 21:38:56 pkhuong: that's the point i was trying to make :) 21:39:00 francogrex: it is a reference to zpng and skippy 21:39:10 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 21:39:29 prxq: if you insert the return, it could be any monad... monads are generic 21:40:12 ok 21:40:22 so 16 >>= sqrt woud be ok in Haskell? 21:40:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 21:40:41 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:08 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:17 well, whatever. I think there is a mixture between what the concept is and how it is implemented in haskell. 21:41:53 in this discussion, at least :-) 21:42:09 drewc: even without, it could still work. The value could be monadic itself. 21:42:18 pkhuong: _could_ be, yes 21:42:20 I think I got it, and I see the relation between the CT thing and the haskell thing. 21:42:42 (that'd require an overloaded sqrt, though (: 21:44:59 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:32 oh... i thought you were getting at the number of monads we can come up with where a bare number is a monadic value :) 21:45:33 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:46:44 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:48:23 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:49:35 (with-monad (decimal-math) (mlet* ((a (value '(1.50))) (b (value '(150.25)))) (mdiv b a))) 21:50:37 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 21:53:36 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-252.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: have a good weekend everyone] 21:53:40 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:49 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:58:37 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:58:43 drewc: in that code, how is decimal math a monad? 21:58:55 or in what way, rather 21:59:37 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 22:03:16 prxq: i was thinking of financial systems where i work with dollar amounts... value (return, unit) would be (+ (cdr x) (* 10 (car x)))... it was a silly example where the monadic value was a number 22:03:20 Gentle Lisp starts out a bit slow. 22:03:38 i mean "value (AKA return, unit) ..." 22:03:48 Darxus: it's worth every second. 22:03:53 Darxus: get a pencil and paper! 22:03:59 ? 22:04:20 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@119.224.32.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:04:38 Darxus: the first few chapters hae exercises that should be done without a computer, with a pencil and paper. 22:04:55 Darxus: If you have already seen computers at some point in your life, feel free to skim the first parts of the book, until you start to not understand things. :-) 22:04:57 drewc: why would you encode ccy amounts that way? I'd use scaled integers 22:05:03 Fare [~Fare@c-76-24-31-46.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:04 rahul: i wouldn't 22:05:06 and each ccy would have its own scale factor 22:05:20 hum. 22:05:22 there's always some minimum unit of each ccy 22:05:35 JPY is 1, USD is 0.01 22:05:38 Anyone using ABL or CLC? Where is PvE when I need to discuss with him? :-/ 22:05:40 does the 'it was a silly example where the monadic value was a bare number' not stick out? 22:06:06 drewc: yeah, I'm talking about your idea for a better representation of the number 22:06:11 prxq: Yeah, I read that I might want to skim. But don't want to miss stuff. 22:06:21 Fare: I use CLC 22:06:40 but I don't have any problems with it, so I'm not sure how to fix problems with it :P 22:06:46 drewc: :-). But what does value (return, unit) mean? is that the same return and unit from the monad thing? 22:06:53 I have design questions on what API to offer for configuring ABL 22:06:58 something that CLC could use 22:07:05 i mean that in my example return is called VALUE 22:07:09 yeah 22:07:10 what's ABL? 22:07:17 so presumably similar to the source-registry.conf and source-registry.conf.d/ 22:07:19 Darxus: don't worry too much. Just dig ahead. Nothing bad will happen. 22:07:22 asdf-binary-locations 22:07:25 oh 22:07:27 ok 22:07:30 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:08:04 prxq: because CL already has RETURN, and it means something completely different, and i like the name VALUE as a symetry to CALL, which my name for bind. 22:08:09 Fare: well, clc just puts the binaries under /var somewhere... 22:08:13 per-user 22:08:20 that's not the point 22:08:40 the point is an API by which the user/system can configure where ASDF puts its stuff 22:08:52 hmm 22:08:59 Darxus: it is more important to get up and running, than to get *everything* right. A lot of things only make full sense after you know the rest. 22:09:08 so that the pre-compiled magic SBCL things are where they are, the CLC system-global things are where they are, etc. 22:09:22 Fare: I see 22:09:42 prxq: the way i think if it, return is just WRAP-VALUE-IN-CONTAINER and bind is just FUNCALL-WITH-UNWRAPPED-VALUE 22:10:24 "Common Lisp contains built-in functions 1+ and 1- that add 1 to or subtract 1 from their input, respectively. But since these unusual names are almost certain to confuse beginning programmers, I will not refer to them in this book." Scary that those are considered too advanced for this entire 500+ page book :/ 22:10:47 drewc: right. Ok now I see how to parse your sentence and example. 22:10:48 drewc: it's not just *funcall*, that's the key. 22:11:23 Darxus: it aims to teach programming *and* CL. 22:12:02 pkhuong: how about MAP/REDUCE-AND-FUNCALL-WITH-UNWRAPPED-VALUE :) 22:12:16 err, MAP/JOIN .. same thing 22:12:28 Darxus: have you ever teached programming to total newbies? 22:12:40 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-111-45.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: error, too many simultaneous distractions] 22:13:13 Darxus: if you stop looking down your nose at the text long enough to read it, you might learn something! 22:13:19 (1+ x) ? 22:13:25 pkhuong: Yes, I realize that. 22:13:43 prxq: Heh, yes, I started trying to teach perl to my girlfriend a couple weeks ago. Poor thing. 22:14:27 Darxus: my wife was able to learn a good deal of lisp from gentle, with only minimal input from me. 22:14:28 drewc: I'm not saying I think the text is bad, just that it's starting off below where I need it to. And I'm a little concerned it will stay frustratingly slow. 22:14:40 "below"? 22:14:44 I have, afterall, had the title of "software engineer" for 7 years. 22:14:45 because it doesn't use 1_? 22:14:51 er 1+ 22:14:57 Darxus: maybe PCL is better for you, then. 22:15:05 minion: tell Darxus about PCL 22:15:06 Darxus: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:15:08 Darxus: I have the title of Vice President 22:15:14 it doesn't mean I know anything about anything 22:15:35 Darxus: I'm considering leaving my 4 years as programmer/manager in enterprise software off my resume :( 22:15:43 rahul: that's unfair. Gentle really starts very, very low. 22:15:53 Modius: Why? 22:15:54 Darxus: and it will probably be harder for you to learn lisp by virtue of your experience 22:16:00 *drewc* is Director of Research and Development , and went through gentle with pencil and paper 22:16:18 minion: gentle 22:16:18 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 22:16:28 Darxus: you are a full glass ;) 22:16:54 getting tea all over our rug! 22:17:04 so he can skip to section 1.5 22:17:06 Darxus: An exaggeration; but I'm aware of at least one workplace where little to nothing is gained from the experience - the "that doesn't mean anything" means that, to many, skill is more than just years. 22:17:10 drewc: Heh, when I was 20 a 40 year old coworker told me he didn't think a person's brain could be full before he met me. Fortunately, I overflow instead of explode so far :) 22:17:17 since he will have no idea what that section is teaching beforehand 22:17:30 Darxus: that's not a good thing ;) 22:17:58 Darxus: you're not going to have much luck learning lisp, then 22:18:10 you NEED to unlearn most of what you think you know about programming 22:18:13 Heh. You folks sure do have opinions. 22:18:21 it's going to be very difficult for him, that's for sure. 22:18:23 it's not opinion. it's experience. 22:18:23 I'm comfortable unlearning. 22:18:41 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip72-204-42-139.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:54 when I got to lisp, I knew enough about enough languages that I realized that there's a LOT out there 22:18:55 So people, please all get SBCL HEAD, compile & run tests 22:19:02 Darxus: I have a joke - a quote: " I know C#1, Java, Visual Basic and Delphi - I know 4 languages" 22:19:06 but if I learned lisp a few years earlier, I would have never understood it 22:19:09 tcr: how so? 22:19:18 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:21 in fact, I _did_ look earlier and completely brushed it off 22:19:25 why isn't this working in sbcl: (in-package :cm) 22:19:42 bjorkintosh: because you haven't defined the CM package? 22:19:47 bjorkintosh: because the cm packages doesn't exist? 22:19:53 bjorkintosh: because you're using an old version of slime? 22:19:55 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 22:19:58 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:04 bjorkintosh: is it plugged in? 22:20:11 sbcl seems to be in need of more committers 22:20:11 bjorkintosh: or because you have confused slime, and it doesn't find "IN-PACKAGE". try cl:in-package 22:20:14 i hope so. it is in the /shared folder. 22:20:24 bjorkintosh: what is a /shared folder? 22:20:35 and what does that have to do with defpackage? 22:20:42 bjorkintosh: Have you loaded the code in? 22:20:43 http://bc.tech.coop/blog/050501.html 22:20:45 Fare: "How"? 22:20:49 i'm trying to follow that ^ 22:21:02 i want lisp to sing for me. 22:21:05 tcr: is there a good reason to test sbcl now more than at any other time? 22:21:10 Fare: I think you kind of need some meta info about specific systems 22:21:26 rahul: systems, or directories? 22:21:40 bah. 22:21:44 Fare: Current HEAD is going to be the next release, so why not give it some sanity check 22:21:46 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:49 Fare: systems. different system classes that indicate that their binaries are in different locations 22:21:56 I'm gonna just throw this out there: (mostly from looking at hunchentoot) : G** **** does Edi Weitz put detail into his libraries and documentation. 22:22:00 Fare: i like that you asked that, cause i just blindly went ahead and started compiling sbcl :) 22:22:09 the original example used cmucl, but ubuntu doesn't seem to know what that is. 22:22:10 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:22:24 Fare: one for the sbcl precompiled stuff, one for the system compiled stuff, one for the user-local stuff 22:22:27 Modius: we like ediware, quality stuff 22:22:52 Fare: although I guess you could do this based on which directory in the registry the .asd was found in 22:23:15 Fare: yeah, I guess associating a binary pathname mapping to the .asd's directory is better 22:24:50 bjorkintosh: I assume the course used a custom image with slime and CM already loaded in. 22:25:14 aah. 22:25:49 so there's nothing i can do about it? 22:25:54 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:26:03 yes. Load common music in. 22:28:00 You mentioned ubuntu. Did you use aptitude to install SBCL and common music? 22:29:16 Fare: Also please notice that there's usually as much if not more efforts involved when applying non-trivial patches compared to if you had done it all yourself. 22:29:38 (And it's not nearly as fun) 22:29:48 tcr: sorry i lost context 22:29:57 pkhuong, i don't think there's a .deb for common music. 22:29:58 Fare: You said sbcl needs more comitters 22:29:59 efforts to test sbcl? 22:30:06 oh yes. 22:30:19 i did use apt-get to install sbcl. 22:30:26 and for common music? 22:30:43 You untarred it in /? 22:31:02 yeah i followed all the instructions on the page. 22:31:06 Untar it some place you have write access. 22:31:09 my november patch still isn't in. Not rejected either. In limbo with no one with time to review. I understand that any given committer lacks time. But it may be also a sign that more committers are needed. 22:32:05 Modius: Was the joke that those don't qualify as 4 distinct languages? 22:32:07 so it's under /usr/share/common-lisp/source/clm/ 22:32:54 Darxus: Kind of. Basically, if you could lay out languages based on characteristics on some sort of scatter plot, they would lie very close together due to the extreme similarities between them, and the how and what of what you program in them. 22:33:20 bjorkintosh: you put non-packaged stuff under /usr? 22:33:28 sigh 22:33:39 Darxus: Also, the joke reflects the ease at which people can kind-of go and learn more languages that were written to acommodate an existing market of wanting their code to look like C++ 22:33:40 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:33:41 well, anyway, symlink the .asd to /u/s/c-l/systems/ 22:33:43 that's what the link said to do, so i did it. 22:33:52 Fare: I've become a committer since, but It's outside my realm 22:33:55 and then (clc:clc-require :cm) 22:33:58 sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:34:25 ecl 22:34:32 rahul: is there an .asd, for CM? 22:34:38 hmm 22:34:38 sorry wrong window again 22:34:48 pkhuong: right, there might not be 22:34:54 I recall some scary insanity there 22:35:03 It's probably an old school project for which you want to LOAD some file... all.lisp, maybe? 22:35:12 sounds about right 22:35:33 maybe load.lisp or whatever, but yeah 22:35:35 phkuong, yeah. the docs are not exactly revealing, so i'm feeling my way blindly. 22:35:41 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:04 Fare: Periodically I wonder if a git-repo where everyone (with c-l.net account, say) can commit to, but which is not the officially sanctioned source, would lead to more progress over time 22:36:06 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:36:17 -!- sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:36:32 adeht [death@bzq-84-110-117-95.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:52 It's kind of a scary thought though :-) 22:37:52 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-176-179.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:39:44 -!- francogrex [~user@91.180.83.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:55 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 22:42:14 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:42:34 tcr: or a repo where everyone would commit, but into their own branches, and you could pick what you want ;-) 22:42:46 tcr: the linux kernel does a good job of having a few different trees around, i think sbcl would as well 22:43:37 afaik the linux kernel uses the model of "lieutnants" (as it was called in Pro Git book) 22:44:57 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:46:13 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:46:30 *p_l* has the feeling that clbuild needs a lot of changes in project definitions 22:47:38 redline6561 [~redline@c-69-180-25-216.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:13 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:15 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:43 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:45 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:50:54 it might certainly give a few patches that otherwise would bitrot a chance at survival in a non-mainline tree. 22:51:15 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:51:21 -!- bipt` [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:51:31 hmm... lichtblau's memory changes? 22:54:01 is it very difficult to become a committer to sbcl? 22:54:12 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:55 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 22:54:55 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:55:08 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:15 prxq: I don't think SBCL has a lot of bureaucracy like Debian... I guess it would depend on having useful contributions and knowing how to submit good patches :D 22:55:18 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3DA1.versanet.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-8db4e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-224-77.net.novis.pt] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- cools [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.64.70] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:18 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- ironChicken [~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- Dodek [dodek@sh.8px.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.210] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.114.188.207] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-69-180-25-216.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-76-24-31-46.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- mle [~emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- wgl [~wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- knobo [~user@ti0073a340-0010.bb.online.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- prxq [~mommer@f051068080.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- ruediger_ [~quassel@188-23-177-109.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-171-8.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- marioxcc [~user@201.132.137.230] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- nicktastic [~nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-igwzuylvcefojbgi] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- spiaggia` [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- ceineke_ [~chris@24.235.36.231] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- ClaudiaS [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- Darxus [~darxus@panic.chaosreigns.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- bobrown` [~user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- disturbance [ac@c-68-34-160-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- rlonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- borisc [~borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.24.30] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- codemonkeyx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- _3b__ [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- ennen [~nn@studio25.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-9-43.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- danderson [~dave@atlas.natulte.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- peddie [~peddie@TEP.MIT.EDU] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- _3b` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- pjb [~t@90.Red-88-30-103.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- bfein [~bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- rullie [~rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152733.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- luis [~user@r42.eu] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- fmu [root@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- addled [~adl@21.Red-81-38-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:19 -!- holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- [df] [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- hoeq_ [~hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- guenthr [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- Tabmow [~terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-176-179.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- p8m [~dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.144.19] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- cupe [~cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- faux` [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp121-45-32-142.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-248-95.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082B427.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-167-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- tensorpudding [~user@99.148.206.229] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- nareshov [~nareshov@unaffiliated/nareshov] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- tobetchi [~tobetchi@p923e60.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- sytse [sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- alexbobp [~alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- Guest428 [~x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- ivan_chernetsky [~ivan@195.222.66.172] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ojspshiaoviptpsm] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@84.249.39.103] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- rotty [~rotty@78.41.115.190] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- _deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.183] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- krappie [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- jroes [~jroes@rube.serapio.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- dejones [~dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:20 -!- fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- wasabi [~wasabi@nttkyo212187.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- guaqua [gua@217.30.184.184] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- pok [~pok@80.91.231.253] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- moocow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- mtd [~martin@82.68.80.108] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- beach [~user@86.201.115.84] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- dfox [~dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- Ri- [~ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- bakkdoor [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-194-61.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip72-204-42-139.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- Alabaman_ [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- Foofie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- Sikander [~Sikander@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-71-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e64.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- whoppix [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66120c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:21 -!- raison [~raison@70.90.182.149] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- lpolzer [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-232-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- gz_ [~gz@216-220-228-58.midmaine.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.88] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- blast_hardcheese [~blast_har@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- guaq [gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- ``Erik [~erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- ud [ud@ud.net.ru] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- qed [code@powerprecision.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- easyE [X4qN5vyCQr@panix3.panix.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- chillywilly [~danielb@cpe-65-28-61-156.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- alec [~aberryman@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- Helheim [~helheim@93.186.169.24] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- trittweiler [~tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- weirdo [w@rodney.ltd.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- slather [~slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- anekos [~anekos@pl932.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- Soulmann [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- Orest^bnc [~Orest@81.169.174.192] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- snorble__ [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- rbancroft [~rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- kom_ [~el@brain.cx] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- aking [~aking@67.23.13.119] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:22 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- qebab [finnrobi@heidi.itea.ntnu.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- ryepup [~ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- sjbach [~sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- retupmoca [~retupmoca@99.54.133.197] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- dsop [dsp@ns.experimentalworks.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- Raptelan [~Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:27 cupe [~cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has joined #lisp 22:55:30 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 22:55:32 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:55:33 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 22:55:37 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:40 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:55:40 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:40 pjb [~t@90.Red-88-30-103.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:40 borisc [~borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 22:55:45 spiaggia` [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 22:55:46 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 22:55:47 prxq [~mommer@f051068080.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:55:48 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 22:55:49 Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-171-8.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:50 G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 22:55:50 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/session] has joined #lisp 22:55:51 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:52 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:55 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:56:01 araujo [~araujo@190.38.49.150] has joined #lisp 22:56:04 foo 22:56:05 kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 22:56:22 yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:27 _3b` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 ennen [~nn@209.20.81.227] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-8db4e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 benny [~benny@i577A3DA1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 luis [~user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 fmu [root@an9iex1i.u10r.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 22:57:02 -!- tvaal is now known as tvaalen 22:57:04 hmm... back (some connectivity problems). prxq did you get my reply? 22:57:08 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:09 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 ClaudiaS [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 xinming [~hyy@122.238.64.70] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 soupdragon [~quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-24-118-53-243.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 Fare [~Fare@c-76-24-31-46.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-236-120-158.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 cools [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 antifuchs [~foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 gz_ [~gz@216-220-228-58.midmaine.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.88] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 blast_hardcheese [~blast_har@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 weirdo [w@rodney.ltd.pl] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 guaq [gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 ``Erik [~erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 qed [code@powerprecision.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 ud [ud@ud.net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 easyE [X4qN5vyCQr@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 chillywilly [~danielb@cpe-65-28-61-156.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Helheim [~helheim@93.186.169.24] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 alec [~aberryman@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 trittweiler [~tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 slather [~slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 anekos [~anekos@pl932.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Soulmann [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Orest^bnc [~Orest@81.169.174.192] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 snorble__ [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 rbancroft [~rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 aking [~aking@67.23.13.119] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 kom_ [~el@brain.cx] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 qebab [finnrobi@heidi.itea.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 ryepup [~ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 sjbach [~sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 retupmoca [~retupmoca@99.54.133.197] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 dsop [dsp@ns.experimentalworks.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 Raptelan [~Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has joined #lisp 22:57:13 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 cmm [~cmm@109.64.24.30] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 rullie [~rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152733.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 knobo [~user@ti0073a340-0010.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 bobrown` [~user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-164-161.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 addled [~adl@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 peddie [~peddie@TEP.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 [df] [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 p8m [~dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip72-204-42-139.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 Alabaman_ [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 Foofie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 Sikander [~Sikander@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-71-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e64.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 bulibuta [~bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 whoppix [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66120c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 raison [~raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 lpolzer [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-232-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 holycow [~new@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 bfein [~bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 faux` [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp121-45-32-142.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-248-95.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 austinh [~austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 daniel [~daniel@p5082B427.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-167-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 tensorpudding [~user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 22:57:30 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:34 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-144-19.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:57 p_l: yes. about 0.01 secs before the crash :-) 22:58:39 danderson [~dave@atlas.natulte.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:45 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:51 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:59:52 nareshov [~nareshov@unaffiliated/nareshov] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 tobetchi [~tobetchi@p923e60.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 Guest428 [~x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 alexbobp [~alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 sytse [sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 ivan_chernetsky [~ivan@195.222.66.172] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ojspshiaoviptpsm] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 ineiros [~itniemin@84.249.39.103] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 rotty [~rotty@78.41.115.190] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 _deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.183] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 krappie [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 jroes [~jroes@rube.serapio.org] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 dejones [~dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 fgtech [~fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 wasabi [~wasabi@nttkyo212187.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 guaqua [gua@217.30.184.184] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 pok [~pok@80.91.231.253] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 rares [~rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 lnostdal [~lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 moocow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 mtd [~martin@82.68.80.108] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 -!- bartol.freenode.net has set mode +o Xach 22:59:52 beach [~user@86.201.115.84] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 dfox [~dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 Ri- [~ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 bakkdoor [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:59:52 tic [~tic@c83-249-194-61.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:00:10 tarbo [~me@pool-173-75-5-88.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:21 Pepe_ [~ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:22 jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 23:00:22 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 23:00:22 rlonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:23 Dodek [dodek@sh.8px.pl] has joined #lisp 23:00:23 Darxus [~darxus@panic.chaosreigns.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:25 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 23:00:32 disturbance [~ac@c-68-34-160-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:35 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 23:00:35 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-9-43.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:35 hoeq_ [~hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 23:00:36 thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 23:00:36 I think nearly all committed entered the game as grad students. The problem with the copious free time one gets as a grad student is that it's only a temporary affair. 23:00:37 ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:00:37 Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:37 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-176-179.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:00:37 LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:37 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:00:37 nicktastic [~nick@fuga.servo.cc] has joined #lisp 23:00:43 Tabmow [~terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 23:00:43 40FAAAAA4 [~chris@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 23:00:43 _3b__ [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:00 *committers. 23:01:44 leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:37 marioxcc [~user@201.132.137.230] has joined #lisp 23:03:41 ironChicken [~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 23:04:36 dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:43 lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.210] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.114.188.207] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 codemonkeyx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 guenthr [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 TR2N [email@89-180-224-77.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 ruediger [~quassel@188-23-177-109.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 madsy [~madsy@ti0207a340-0495.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:51 -!- Tabmow [~terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:04:55 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:04:58 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/session] has quit [Changing host] 23:04:58 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-blhjecqxmcilxswt] has joined #lisp 23:05:20 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:05:29 Tabmow [~terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 23:05:30 S11001001 [~sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:31 erk [~MrEd@BZ.BZFLAG.BZ] has joined #lisp 23:05:32 -!- soupdragon [~quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Changing host] 23:05:32 soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 23:05:32 -!- erk [~MrEd@BZ.BZFLAG.BZ] has quit [Changing host] 23:05:32 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 23:05:55 -!- tarbo [~me@pool-173-75-5-88.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:05:59 -!- drwho is now known as Guest68881 23:05:59 -!- cmm is now known as Guest40418 23:05:59 -!- Fare is now known as Guest67513 23:05:59 -!- Tabmow is now known as Guest58096 23:05:59 -!- marioxcc is now known as Guest13773 23:06:00 -!- danderson is now known as Guest2764 23:06:40 -!- Guest13773 is now known as marioxcc` 23:06:45 -!- Guest67513 is now known as FareWell 23:06:45 test 23:06:55 tcr: didn't work :-) 23:07:00 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-9-43.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:07:01 -!- marioxcc` is now known as marioxcc 23:07:05 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 23:07:18 So I wonder how long this situation of instability will hold on 23:07:21 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 23:07:25 ..Guest? 23:07:40 What's up with all the name changes to Guest? 23:08:30 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-91-83.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:36 madsy: the network is a little unstable, fallout from the migration to a new IRC server codebase 23:09:00 when the services rejoin the network, nickserv force-renames all people using registered nicks to GuestXXXX 23:09:06 -!- disturbance [~ac@c-68-34-160-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:09:10 tankrim [~qsvans@c-eefce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:09:37 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e64.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:58 -!- prxq [~mommer@f051068080.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: /me >>= zzzz] 23:10:05 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-224-77.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:10:27 -!- 40FAAAAA4 [~chris@24.235.36.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:10:41 *p_l* notes that he can't recall a time he got renamed.... 23:10:42 aha 23:10:55 TR2N` [email@89-180-224-77.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 23:10:58 -!- Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo3.132.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:11:13 -!- Guest2764 is now known as danderson 23:11:17 but I guess it's because I reconnected manually and I have ident service running... 23:12:21 -!- madsy [~madsy@ti0207a340-0495.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 23:12:22 madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 23:12:54 though it's funny how three different servers all report different data for /whois p_l xD 23:13:59 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:14:33 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:15:18 is there any variable as `*interactivep*' in clisp, to I can know if this was loaded with `load' 23:15:39 or launch with clisp as script? 23:16:02 davazp: the clisp implmentation notes would say for sure 23:16:23 davazp: i wonder if the value of *load-pathname* changes based on script vs load 23:16:24 bipt [~bpt@cl-509.qas-01.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:39 *load-pathname* maybe? 23:17:55 -!- Guest68881 [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Gauss Eleminated] 23:19:38 *load-pathmae* seems to work equal in both cases 23:19:40 I didn't find anything in the impnotes 23:20:04 ceineke_ [~chris@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 23:20:30 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:47 *leo2007* 23:20:50 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.92.1] 23:20:51 I can do a (defvar *interactivep* t) in .clisprc 23:20:59 because as script this is not loaded 23:21:01 :-) 23:21:11 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 23:21:13 and (defvar *interactivep* nil) in the code, of course 23:22:35 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:22:50 thanks anyway 23:23:20 ejs [~eugen@94-248-11-170.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 23:23:44 *tcr* wonders whether sb-queue's queue-head, and queue-tail are likely to get into the same cache line, and whether that could result in cache trashing 23:23:54 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:38 plan9 [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:39 -!- nicktastic [~nick@fuga.servo.cc] has quit [Changing host] 23:26:39 nicktastic [~nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 23:26:56 probably, to both 23:27:10 ruediger_ [~quassel@188-23-180-3.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:27:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:27:28 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 23:27:44 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip72-204-42-139.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:47 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 23:27:58 -!- ruediger [~quassel@188-23-177-109.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:28:06 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 23:29:00 tcr: maybe it's beneficial on a monoprocessor, and detrimental on a multiprocessor? 23:30:39 How are stuff like that quantified? I heard about some amazing threads-profiling application by Intel 23:30:46 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:49 s/are/is/ 23:31:14 tcr: you'd need to look at hardware performance counters. 23:31:46 -!- davazp [~user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:31:56 yeah that's what that software was supposed to be doing; because it's from Intel they probably know how to do it rather well :-) 23:32:33 slyrus_ [~slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 23:33:22 The problem is that you need a kernel module on linux < 2.6.31, and I'm not sure how well intel's tools will cope with SBCL's runtime-generated and GCed code. 23:34:01 PAPI supports 2.6.31's new interface, and is lower level, so you should be able to make it work with SBCL more easily. 23:34:38 is there a fast way to recompile all asdf systems? Like when you upgrade your lisp implementation? 23:35:13 cools: there is, I believe, when you use clbuild 23:35:13 Install a handler for the version mismatch condition. I think there's a recipe on cliki. 23:35:14 i guess i could create a custom system with all the systems in it as "depends-on" and use slime's force recomiple? 23:35:22 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-236-120-158.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:35:22 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 23:36:29 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:36:38 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:54 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 23:37:17 afternoon 23:38:10 pr [~pr@109.74.204.63] has joined #lisp 23:38:10 -!- pr [~pr@109.74.204.63] has quit [Changing host] 23:38:10 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 23:38:32 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:51 Xof: For the record, current HEAD builds and tests fine on linux-x86-32. 23:40:28 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:12 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 23:41:21 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:42 should I "just" expose a directory to directory mapping, as with cl-launch? 23:43:49 should I automatically match most specific mapping first? 23:45:33 I think so 23:45:55 but right now, I am going to focus on going out into the non-digital world 23:46:10 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-11-170.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:46:45 hi, any way to get "the function name that I'm in"? ie. (defun foo () (print (the-current-function-name))) => FOO 23:47:21 egn: in the standard, I think the function itself has no name 23:47:39 egn: and many names could designate the same function 23:47:44 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:47:54 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:47:55 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 23:47:58 egn: why do you need that? 23:48:07 egn: (setf (symbol-function 'bar) #'foo) 23:48:30 egn: functions don't have names... (defmacro named-defun (name ...) `(defun .... (let ((*function-name* ',name)) ...))) 23:49:30 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-76-24-31-46.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:23 nowhere_man: drewc: thanks 23:51:42 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-6.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 23:51:53 stassats`: adding some verbosity to some functions, want to make it somewhat standard 23:52:33 (the-current-function-name) would return THE-CURRENT-FUNCTION-NAME ;) 23:52:41 (if implemented as a function) 23:53:44 (just food for thought... might help you rethink your strategy to be clearer and simpler than trying to hack some concept of toplevel defintion that most compiler writers can't figure out, either) 23:54:06 anyway, the universe is waiting. 23:54:21 hey [~501eb801@gateway/web/freenode/x-eeuilvvaatagjkdi] has joined #lisp 23:54:27 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 23:54:57 drewc: for some reason, restructuredtext formatting still doesn't work for me 23:55:28 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip72-204-42-139.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:45 rahul: ah, true. thanks 23:56:00 how do i create a package in cmucl? 23:56:07 i've gone through the compilation process. 23:56:22 minion: tell bjorkintosh about gentle 23:56:29 or perhaps, i'm supposed to register it. 23:56:43 gentle, drewc? 23:56:59 -!- ruediger_ [~quassel@188-23-180-3.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:09 you need to be gentle with cmucl 23:57:13 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" 23:57:13 is a smoother introduction to lisp 23:57:13 programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 23:58:31 drewc, there's nothing in the index of my copy, about packages.