00:00:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:00:06 hefner: well, you have to implement make-method-lambda somehow, and then you have to do something with those lamba expressions you get 00:00:26 make-method-lambda is MOP, not CLOS 00:00:27 *Adlai* ducks 00:00:34 wow. I just imagined being someone tasked with implementing coerce, getting almost all the way through, then realizing I had to support that. 00:00:44 quotemstr pasted "ugly" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93971 00:00:50 Man that's ugly. 00:01:32 DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:32 malsyned, it's trivial -- (ecase type ... (function (compile nil object))) 00:01:45 Adlai: the distinction is pointless, imo. 00:01:54 *Adlai* wraps that code sample with (defun coerce (object type) ...) 00:02:00 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:02:41 drewc, it's not pointless -- you can have a CLOS implementation that doesn't provide a MOP for generic functions and methods. 00:02:47 Adlai, ah. But that means any code that uses coerce forces the tree-shaker of myth and legend to keep the compiler around. 00:02:51 clhs find-method 00:03:14 malsyned, the tree shaker could redefine coerce to signal an error in that case. 00:03:28 Adlai: FIND-METHOD is in ANSI, and it return a metaobject 00:03:35 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-16-219.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:04:04 Instead of a wonky, unpredictable tree shaker, I prefer the idea of making the compiler a separate loadable component. I was tickled when I realized ECL does just that. 00:04:05 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 00:04:24 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 00:04:28 drewc, I misspoke. I mean that a CLOS implementation can provide metaobjects without allowing useful user-defined metaobjects. 00:04:34 Adlai: hell, add-method is ANSI 00:04:39 ECL strikes me as a potentially excellent lisp. 00:04:51 er, user-defined _subclasses of_ metaobjects 00:04:52 malsyned: it's how hefner is going to make his millions 00:04:58 malsyned: nah. Compiling to C sucks. 00:05:19 hefner, can't wait for SBCL to have an LLVM backend. 00:05:21 Adlai: that's true, but the implementor needs a function, call it make-something-lambda, that takes a lambda expression and turns it into a form suitable for passing to add-method... right? 00:06:02 I'd be slightly fonder of ECL if SLIME was usable with it, but if you make the effort to fix things up, something else just breaks two weeks later. 00:06:37 Adlai: the implementor HAS to use a MOP to implement CLOS in order to comply with the CLHS, so when speaking of the requirement to ship a compiler in order to have a working CLOS implementation, the distinction is pointless. 00:06:41 which is fine, it's a miracle Slime works as well as it does across so many lisps anyway. 00:07:31 regularfry [n=regularf@188-220-61-150.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:07:53 slime is a pretty impressive piece of cross-platform lisp software. I bet its got all kinds of useful lore hiding in its nooks and crannies. 00:10:00 -!- regularfry [n=regularf@188-220-61-150.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 00:10:30 -!- fda314925 [n=fda31492@121.124.124.117] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:36 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:41 -!- erg [n=erg@69.93.127.154] has quit ["Changing server"] 00:10:48 I do think MCLIDE is foolish to spend effort supporting non-CCL lisps, and absolutely insane to make it talk to Gambit. Perhaps it's more mature than I give it credit for, and they just don't have anything better do it. 00:11:08 fda314925 [n=fda31492@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 00:11:17 drewc, I think you could have the defmethod macro frob its body appropriately so that the macro expanded into some form of (ensure-method foo ... :function (lambda (args next-methods) ..)), and the body could be compiled as a lexical closure, but maybe I'm misunderstanding some aspect of CL compilation. 00:12:36 historical PCL seemed to have some support (or plans for it) for running without a full compiler, and only using an assembler. 00:14:01 Hmm. Anyone use MCLIDE? How well does it work? 00:15:06 Adlai: all you've done is inline make-method-lambda into you macro... that doesn't mean it's not still there. You still have a MOP, as evidenced by your ensure-method function 00:16:30 drewc, the difference is the same as that between (defun make-adder (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) and (defun make-adder (x) `(lambda (y) (+ ,x y))) 00:17:40 by "inlining" make-method-lambda in this way, I think it's possible to compile the method-function during file compilation rather than "runtime" 00:18:09 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.183] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:19:06 i'm sure it's possible, but i don't see how that supports your statement that you can ship without a MOP. 00:20:09 hm, we're misunderstanding eachother -- I'm talking about a defmethod strategy which doesn't require calling COMPILE 00:20:32 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:20:39 Adlai isn't arguing against a MOP, he's arguing that a MOP doesn't require COMPILE. 00:21:15 drewc, I did say that you can ship without a MOP, but then I corrected myself. 00:21:32 heyhey [i=51245020@gateway/web/freenode/x-pbiovbjhupzqoiug] has joined #lisp 00:21:53 Ok, an extremely slow implementation of CLOS doesn't require COMPILE at run time... i mean, you could have argued that EVAL was enough. 00:22:57 i'm not sure make-method-lambda is even a great idea... 00:23:00 it would be slow because method _dispatch_ wouldn't be compiled, not because of uncompiled method-lambdas 00:23:16 Why wouldn't the dispatch be compiled? 00:23:27 Adlai, I think make-method-lambda is only called in add-method. 00:23:36 nyef: what about redefinition? 00:23:49 add-method is the stinker 00:24:05 nyef, we're having a hypothetically academic discussion about post-treeshake CLOS 00:24:12 and remove-method 00:24:22 Oh, okay, if you've still got the ability to add random stuff to the system even without the compiler, then yeah... 00:24:39 But that doesn't stop you from including a minimal compiler specifically for dispatch functions. 00:24:52 Adlai: actually, the discussion was about reasons for SBCL's evaluator. SBCL uses PCL and thus a tree shaker requires that compile work in order for CLOS to work :P 00:24:52 which is what classical PCL tried to do 00:25:25 Time for me to get outta here. Always stimulating, guys. 00:25:29 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:26:10 this seems to be explained in the file lap.text in the pcl distribution. A brief snippet: The PCL abstract LAP code mechanism exists to provide PCL with a way to create high-performance method lookup functions. 00:26:14 unless we now how two different clos implementations, when it seems a lot easier to simply provide COMPILE 00:26:19 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 00:26:33 now have* 00:26:37 drewc, of course it is. This discussion is "purely academic", right? :) 00:26:48 fair enough, continue! 00:27:22 but is it not a turing tarpit? 00:27:54 PCL's abstract LAP code ? 00:28:37 no, the idea that one can implement CLOS and not need COMPILE at run-time. 00:29:25 PCL's abstract LAP code i'm quite interested in :) 00:29:54 Adlai pasted "PCL abstract LAP code sample" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93972 00:30:18 drewc, check out their example 00:31:30 I think the idea was to have various PCL ports implement an assembler for this LAP that mapped to whatever assembler their compiler used 00:31:48 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:59 *Adlai* hasn't explored the PCL source enough to tell whether this idea was ever fully carried out 00:32:52 oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:56 neat 00:35:23 but yeah, it seems impractical for anything but the simplest dispatch functions. I'd rather write method dispatch algorithms in lisp... 00:36:49 I remember Kiczales mentioning how important performance was to them, or at least the idea that it _could_ be implemented efficiently. 00:37:49 Premature optimization is the root of all AMOP? 00:38:45 hypothetical future optimisation considerations certainly had a role to play :) 00:38:47 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:39:38 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:40:53 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 00:40:54 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.69] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:41:16 the design considerations for performance play a big part in AMOP 00:42:34 immediate backwards compatibility was another big one... actually implementing CLOS is almost just side effect of the design, since you need CLOS to implement AMOP :) 00:42:49 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:15 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 00:43:37 OrgulloCachanill [n=Tijuanen@200.79.144.230.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:42 hi 00:44:04 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 00:45:48 -!- OrgulloCachanill [n=Tijuanen@200.79.144.230.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-lined] 00:45:48 -!- knobo [n=bohmersp@90.149.4.182] has quit ["zZzzzZZzzzz"] 00:46:09 drewc: chimpout people? How'd you catch it? 00:46:11 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 00:46:23 sykopomp: always telnor.net 00:46:31 ah 00:47:10 friggin looks legit. identified use, in #lisp #joomla ##mac #ubuntu-meeting 00:47:11 #winehq #ubuntu-server #gentoo-kde #amarok #ipv6 #erlang #vbox 00:47:11 #ubuntu-classroom #ubuntu-motu #ubuntu+1 #ruby #radeon #freenode 00:47:14 #ubuntu-offtopic ##linux #debian 00:47:28 gah, sorry about the floodage 00:47:30 o_0 00:47:40 yeah, they always lurk #freenode too :| 00:51:01 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:14 jsfb [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has joined #lisp 00:54:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 00:55:01 it seems C-c C-c in slime does not write to a temp file in CCL, right? 00:55:38 -!- anton_v [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:29 speaking of slime, is there any other ide for lisp besides emacs in GNU/Linux? (I'd like to use clisp) 00:57:17 jsfb: a) why clisp? b) there are some, but you really want to use emacs + slime. Even if you only use the bare minimum emacs features, slime is worth it. 00:57:30 jsfb, I think clisp aims to be its own IDE. 00:57:41 Blkt`` [n=user@host-78-13-246-202.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:57:42 jsfb: I don't think there's any non-emacs editor environment that has specific clisp support. 00:57:51 why not? clisp is only a cli afaik (I hate emacs) 00:58:11 jsfb: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52 might be helpful. 00:58:28 however I've used clisp under emacs and it does work, I just want to get away from emacs if at all possible 00:58:30 you could take after Paul Graham, edit code using vi, and paste it into the clisp repl. 00:58:47 *jsfb* follows the link 00:58:48 haha 00:59:01 *nyef* did exactly that edit-and-paste thing, but with emacs and cmucl. 00:59:04 mind you, the last time I hacked any scheme, that's what I was reduced to. 00:59:31 why don't you like emacs? 01:00:30 I'm not being combative... I'm sincerely curious 01:01:04 adlai: that's my only known alternative at the moment and of course it is a pain. I'll use slime if it's all that's available... just checking here in case there are other favs 01:01:20 jsfb: even if you don't edit your code in emacs, the slime REPL (with SBCL or CCL) is far superior to any other open source listener available. 01:01:34 drewc, not when you use clisp with it....... 01:02:47 yes, well, s/he hasn't said why s/he prefers clisp so there's probably still time to steer s/he in the right direction :) 01:04:37 it's both impolite and ungrammatical to steer subjective pronouns. they should be objectified and guided. 01:04:50 lol he wants to get away from emacs more than switch to someones fav lisp system 01:05:21 *nyef* has this sudden horrible thought of a 128-bit integer associated with each subjective pronoun in the english language. 01:05:52 nyef, I assume the gender bit is part of the "type tag"? 01:05:56 *hefner* realizes he should write an SPC player as a Mixalot example program 01:06:22 Adlai: No type tag involved in this, just a globally unique identifier. 01:07:21 nyef, I guess my terminology is bad, but you could pick the integers so that (evenp pronoun) would determine gender. 01:08:09 Typically, you pick the integers with some process based on random number generation. 01:08:35 Adlai: gender is not binary, unfortunatly. 01:08:36 As they are GUIDs. 01:09:02 drewc, this is true, although the english language doesn't do that enough justice 01:09:05 (unfortunately for his scheme.... not that there's anything wrong with that) 01:09:49 afaict, english specifies a ternary gender 01:10:21 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [] 01:10:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:54 And there are always spivak pronouns! 01:12:02 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:13 -!- heyhey [i=51245020@gateway/web/freenode/x-pbiovbjhupzqoiug] has quit ["Page closed"] 01:14:08 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 01:14:09 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:14:11 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:15:39 -!- Blkt` [n=user@host-78-13-246-202.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:42 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:30:11 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:32:55 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:39 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:33:45 Blkt``` [n=user@host-78-13-246-202.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 01:34:05 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fngtcodsrtwhhsys] has left #lisp 01:41:44 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:44:35 gwynddyllyd [n=yghorker@201.29.218.151] has joined #lisp 01:46:42 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html#removing-duplication-and-winning-big 01:46:56 I'm trying to use the backquote and comma as explained there 01:47:07 but '(1 2 ,(+ 1 2)) 01:47:17 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-107.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 01:47:19 throws an error -I'm using sbcl and emacs 01:47:25 chris____: backquote, not quote. 01:47:56 "`" not "'" :) 01:48:04 I see 01:48:35 yes that works 01:49:06 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 01:51:31 -!- Blkt`` [n=user@host-78-13-246-202.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:20 -!- paolo [n=chatzill@93-34-174-29.ip50.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 01:53:38 Wouldn't it be possible in most cases to generate machine code directly from typical bytecode, albeit not the most compact or efficient machine code? 01:54:10 sure. 01:54:15 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:19 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:42 Do you think that unoptimized machine code generally outperform a bytecode interpreter? 01:54:57 (Purely out of curiosity --- I highly doubt I'll ever be bothered to implement such a beast.) 01:55:01 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:55:32 depends on a boatload of factors. I could see it go either way. 01:56:08 probably would. 01:56:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 01:57:04 I dunno. what if you can fit the interpreter in cache? 01:57:51 bah, forgot to credit pkhuong 01:58:21 Adamant: you still spend instructions doing dispatch/decode, and the CPU's branch prediction and pipelining is largely foiled. 01:58:25 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-130.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:03 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:59:16 good point. 01:59:46 hefner: not if you inline jumping to the next instruction. 02:00:18 and not if you have complex operations (supercombinators) 02:00:55 pkhuong: It's still an indirect jump though. jmp %ecx is going to foil branch prediction no matter what, right? 02:01:40 quotemstr: wrong. 02:02:30 Well, modern CPUs do have jump target caches, but unless you execute long strings of the same bytecoded instruction, the cache will be wrong every time. 02:02:34 indirect jumps are an important part of (C++) application performance, so they are handled fairly nicely by cpus these days. Have been for more than 10 years. 02:02:36 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:10 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:03:24 quotemstr: there's this truism in software engineering about profiling and inner loops. You might have heard of it. 02:05:07 *froydnj* is done doing last-minute commits to 1.0.35 02:07:34 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:09 is it possible to get a nice REPL environment without booting emacs+slime? 02:13:35 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:50 oconnore_: that is the question of the day! The short answer is no. 02:14:24 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:15:35 ok 02:15:49 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:15:52 perhaps someone should write a nice, lightweight non-slime repl. 02:16:18 well, i started one, i was just worried about it being redundant :) 02:16:49 oconnore_: there have been a few efforts, but none have gained any traction 02:17:18 can you point me in their direction? 02:17:24 oconnore_: i suspect it is because the authors of these things used emacs and slime to develop them, and realized that they don't need them after all. 02:17:43 right 02:18:09 well, there are of course the commercial IDEs, which are excellent in their own way. 02:18:27 minion: tell oconnore_ about cusp 02:18:28 oconnore_: please look at cusp: Cusp is an Eclipse plugin available from http://bitfauna.com/projects/cusp/index.html which runs on top of SBCL. http://www.cliki.net/cusp 02:18:45 what was that Ltk one called? 02:20:52 minion, able? 02:20:53 able: Able is a basic lisp editor for Windows/Mac/Linux. http://www.cliki.net/able 02:20:59 drewc, adle? 02:20:59 Adlai: thanks 02:21:00 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:22 np 02:21:58 oconnore_: and for macs there's http://mclide.in-progress.com/ 02:22:35 right, but all these things are essentially IDEs 02:22:39 there is nothing lighter? 02:22:44 all i'm looking for is indentation 02:22:47 and form history 02:23:35 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:24:09 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:47 it gets annoying booting up slime just to evaluate some basic arithmetic, etc. 02:24:54 oconnore_: there is the mcclim listener, which is cool as hell but i wouldn't call it light 02:25:01 oconnore_: rlwap sbcl? 02:25:07 I'd just use clisp 02:25:20 oconnore_: another option is to always have emacs and slime running. 02:25:41 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:47 ok 02:25:50 yeah, it's not a problem when you never leave emacs 02:25:53 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:26:18 there is the mcclim listener, but i wouldn't call it light... 02:26:28 yeah, i will check that out 02:26:32 thanks for your help 02:26:36 oh .. i said that 02:26:45 :P 02:27:05 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:29:27 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:29:27 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:30:09 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:30:15 vng [n=user@123.20.67.66] has joined #lisp 02:30:22 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:30:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:36 Good morning #lisp 02:31:34 good morning, vng 02:31:47 hello sykopomp 02:35:27 -!- mbohun [n=mbohun@202.124.73.106] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:36:33 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:17 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:24 -!- gwynddyllyd [n=yghorker@201.29.218.151] has left #lisp 02:44:07 mbohun [n=mbohun@202.124.73.36] has joined #lisp 02:45:11 Good night #lisp 02:45:46 -!- Blkt``` [n=user@host-78-13-246-202.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit ["bed time..."] 02:49:24 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:12 can I customize fuzzy completion not to complete when inside a word? 02:54:16 -!- tensorpudding [n=user@99.148.206.229] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:56:16 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:57:31 SmatZ [n=smatz@a40-prg1-22-216.static.adsl.vol.cz] has joined #lisp 02:57:38 -!- gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-107.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:41 hello 03:00:27 Zhivago: I am not that experienced in LISP - I understand how normal tail recursion can be transformed to iteration, but tail recursion with lambda as parameter... I have to think about it 03:01:24 eg. http://paste.lisp.org/display/93978 - example from wikipedia - when I do (factorial 10 (lambda (x) (1+ x))) 03:01:56 I don't know how it will remember how many times it has to execute (lambda (f) (* n f k)) 03:02:04 before the final (lambda (x) (1+ x)) 03:02:11 without using stack 03:02:38 (for n-times, it could use some 'n', but I believe there can be more complicated examples) 03:03:12 like that "verify parity and type of parenthesis used" - ex. [({}{})()[()]] 03:03:26 tensorpudding [n=user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 03:03:57 SmatZ: the stack is represented implicitly in the chain of closures (the continuation). 03:04:35 pkhuong: so that still would be some "stack-emulation", wouldn't it? 03:07:32 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:08:05 of course. The set of regular languages isn't that large. 03:08:49 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:09:26 thank you pkhuong, I guess I misunderstood Zhivago as "*every* recursion can be changed to iteration using CPS" 03:09:33 I was hoping to learn something new :( 03:09:37 it is changed to iteration 03:09:42 well 03:09:59 but it still stores "what-to-do-next" in a stack-like structure 03:10:26 smatz: There's no need for it to use a stack-like structure. 03:10:37 smatz: Do you understand lambda-lifting? 03:10:53 billstclai [n=billstcl@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 03:11:01 Zhivago: you need some sort of unbounded temporary storage either way. 03:11:03 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:11:19 pkhuong: Sure, you need unbounded storage to store unbounded data. 03:11:41 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 03:11:48 Clearing the bounded stuff away first can make it simpler to understand. 03:12:18 It's still useful to consider the result of CPS transformation iteration because it leads to a nice compilation model, especially on architectures that don't natively support calls (e.g. most RISCs). 03:13:42 also, only handling tail-calls (or jumps) is simpler than having to handle both calls and jumps. 03:20:49 Moe111 [n=Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096727943.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:21:49 nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:49 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:15 I am running hunchentoot on sbcl 1.0.31 and it is somehow stalled. (likely a blocking issue) Any recommendations on how I should go about debugging this to figure out why this has happened? 03:22:23 maybe I should head to bed, it's getting too complicated for this late hour :) 03:22:50 thank you for help and ideas Zhivago and pkhuong, I will study lambda lifting tommorow 03:22:52 I've tried doing: (sb-thread:interrupt-thread worker-thread 'break) to see if there's anything interesting, but it's all uninteresting internals 03:23:00 -!- SmatZ [n=smatz@a40-prg1-22-216.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:23:23 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:24:05 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:27:38 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 03:30:26 ls 03:30:28 doh 03:30:55 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-9-116.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:31:01 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:32:35 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:35:53 ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-9-116.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:35:57 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096727943.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 03:36:19 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:40:05 lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:02 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:42 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:46:27 -!- oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:44 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:49:15 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:57:26 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:01:31 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:01:35 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:21 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:04:52 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit ["(* (! t) nil)"] 04:06:03 rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:30 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 04:09:11 Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:41 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:13:15 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:59 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:14:18 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:14:23 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:35 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:02 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:57 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 04:23:15 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:23:53 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:27 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 04:25:31 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["sleep"] 04:25:36 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:28:55 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:30:51 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:31:15 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:34 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:35:39 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:41:52 Good morning! 04:42:54 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:44:55 good morning beach 04:45:38 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-9-116.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:48:00 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:49:35 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:49:38 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:51:03 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-guhetkfqjxonpedh] has joined #lisp 04:51:05 morning 04:51:23 hello splittist 04:52:37 splittist: Where are you these days? 04:54:26 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:55:21 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:55:27 yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 04:56:53 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:58:55 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:00:59 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:04:47 aidalgol_ [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has joined #lisp 05:07:37 -!- chris____ [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 05:08:08 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-197-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:01 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 05:16:23 -!- aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:16:34 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.235] has joined #lisp 05:21:29 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:46 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-242-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:05 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 05:24:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:25:36 Anyone familiar with UCW able to help with an issue with the ucw-boxset? 05:33:48 fractalis: If you ask your question, you'll find out. 05:34:08 -!- rme [rme@clozure-51821EF0.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:34:09 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:36:18 Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-134-252.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:38:03 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:38:41 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:41:34 I'm getting an error regarding swank-sbcl.fasl when I run (load "start.lisp") 05:41:35 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93983 05:41:41 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-112-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:42:04 I'm using clbuild slime, ran it on two separate machines with the same error. 05:42:59 fractalis: don't use ucw-boxset 05:43:14 fractalis: get clbuild and install UCW that way. 05:43:24 minion: tell fractalis about clbuild 05:43:25 fractalis: please see clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 05:43:37 oh .. you have clbuild 05:44:05 -!- dfox_ [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:44:09 well, install ucw in clbuild. 05:44:25 drewc: I'll try that, thanks. 05:45:12 I actually tried that first, but then saw ucw-boxset/ucw_dev and though that would be the better way. Should have trusted my instincts and went with the clbuild option first. 05:45:53 i'm going to change the website right now 05:47:10 fractalis: also, see http://ifelipe.net/ 05:47:55 sounds like a good site to me 05:48:02 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 05:48:56 I think I recall looking at that site before, going to have to bookmark it =) 05:51:24 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 05:52:42 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:53:28 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.69.22] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:55:48 Thanks drewc for the tip, and felipe for posting the great articles. Got the demo up and running. 05:56:25 Just had to modify the demo to run on a different port, but otherwise no issues at all. 05:56:42 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:57:22 Is LoL and UCW synonymous then/ 05:57:31 s/\//?/ 06:00:27 no, LoL is higher level presentation framework 06:00:33 fractalis: it is a good site! 06:00:35 :) 06:01:07 felideon: i'm going to link to it from the UCW documentation page 06:01:17 heh, cool 06:05:39 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:48 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-116-3.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["zzz"] 06:12:48 anfairch [n=user@c-24-16-32-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:58 Hi, I was hoping to talk to somebody here about lisp implementation. I have some specific questions about compilers vs. evaluators and TCO 06:16:56 I have written a compiler that compiles a scheme-like language to C#. It supports TCO via trampolines. 06:17:10 TCO works great for the compiler, but... 06:17:38 ... but? 06:17:52 now I'm implementing eval (yes, it seems backwards) and I'm trying to reason about why/why not I would not need to implement trampolines in the evaluator. 06:18:52 it seems to me if the host language does a proper TCO, then writing eval in a metacircular way like in SICP, the TCO would just happen. 06:20:56 How can you implement a metacircular evaluator when the host and implementation language are so different? 06:21:18 -!- GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:21:32 they are the same. I have written a self-applicable compiler 06:21:42 Interesting. 06:21:48 I suppose I don't have that luxury in C++. 06:21:52 I'm not even trying to implement TCO. 06:22:51 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-9-43.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:01 The project is called Lunula. It is on http://lunula.codeplex.com/ 06:23:14 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:23:29 Though actually, come to think of it, my interpreter *is* metacircular. 06:23:34 so lets just ignore my language for a second and let me ask in a different way.... 06:23:38 After all, it's using a C++ stack, C++ exceptions, and so on. 06:23:54 anfairch: you know that the CLR JIT only does TCO under certain conditions? 06:24:40 If I were starting with Scheme or any Lisp with guaranteed TCO, If I were to implement an evaluator in that language, would it inherit the TCO of the host language? 06:24:51 I know that, that's why I'm using trampolines 06:25:26 It depends on if your implementation is TCO. 06:26:45 if it is, guaranteed to do TCO, then my evaluator should get TCO for free. This is what I have been trying to tell myself but I thought try get a second opinion. 06:27:26 I probably have a bug in my compiler where it is not handling TCO properly in some case. 06:31:18 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-244-53.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:11 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:34:03 quotemstr: what is your project? 06:35:33 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-254-158.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:35:39 nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:36:22 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:36:33 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:36:37 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:49 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:01 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:37:17 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:29 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:37:45 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:57 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:38:13 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:27 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:38:42 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:55 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:39:06 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 06:39:10 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:45 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:41:11 Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:43:00 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.67.66] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:51:39 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 07:00:45 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:01:23 nostoi [n=nostoi@184.Red-79-147-41.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:00 -!- Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:19 -!- anfairch [n=user@c-24-16-32-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:05:10 -!- mbohun [n=mbohun@202.124.73.36] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:07:50 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@ip-118-90-32-29.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:09:26 das64 [n=das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:11 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:11:13 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 07:13:04 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 07:15:57 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 07:24:05 I am trying to install mit-scheme with the intention of working through SICP. I compiled the portable c code. When I try to run the built-in editor, I get the following error: ;Can't find any usable display type 07:24:05 . Any ideas? 07:25:25 And on a somewhat similar note, has anyone had any success using mit-scheme with SLIME on emacs 23. I tried last night but got a bunch of errors. 07:26:58 I required slime-scheme and also edited my .emacs, as described in swank-mit-scheme.scm. 07:28:12 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:28:59 das64: You might have better luck in #scheme, since #lisp is essentially about Common Lisp. 07:29:21 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:29:41 Thanks beach. I'll give that a try. 07:31:05 das64: Though I have heard of a text that gives hints about how to work through SICP using Common Lisp, which requires changing the syntax a bit. 07:31:27 beach: that's the spirit! 07:31:44 das64: That would have the advantage of #lisp which (as I understand) is way more active than #scheme. 07:32:01 SICP doesn't use anything interesting, like continuations, so ... 07:32:14 das64: slime doesn't support scheme well 07:32:43 das64: http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2007/06/19/introducing-the-sicp-reading-notes/ 07:33:30 -!- tompa [n=tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit ["Client Quit"] 07:33:36 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:27 tompa [n=tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:40 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:37:59 lukego [n=lukegorr@119.110.101.218] has joined #lisp 07:42:02 I'm trying sb-sprof on the mac, based on the examples in the manual, but it complains that no samples are taken. tips? 07:42:40 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-112-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:42:59 lukego: there's slime mode for sprof 07:44:49 i have two sanity changes in sb-sprof because i was staring at the screen like that many times 07:44:55 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 07:45:06 like sb-sprof:reset stops profiling also 07:45:14 "WARNING: No sampling progress; possibly a profiler bug." 07:45:20 i never associated reset with stop 07:45:42 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:46:45 -!- das64 [n=das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:46:56 i never get this while using slime-sprof 07:47:23 M-x slime-sprof-start ... do something ... M-x slime-sprof-browser 07:48:14 although signal handling on mac was always fragile, so it might be because of that 07:48:17 if I copy the whole sb-sprof example from the manual (http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Statistical-Profiler.html) into a file and load it, I see the same thing - no samples are taken 07:48:28 loaded the file with `C-c C-l' 07:48:38 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:50:35 good morning 07:57:07 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:58:07 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["out"] 07:58:41 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 07:59:55 -!- jsfb [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:00:31 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:02:03 please if anybody thinks of a reason why sb-sprof isn't working for me on osx snow leopard with sbcl 1.0.34.9 do let me know, I would find it very handy right now :) 08:03:30 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-45-82-65-138-171.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:36 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75702d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:19 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:06 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-19-166.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:39 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 08:11:31 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:13:44 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@184.Red-79-147-41.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:15:36 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-yetlxzgkfcgjkitq] has joined #lisp 08:16:13 freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:17:25 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:17:25 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:19:01 TR2N [i=email@89-180-129-93.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 08:24:33 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229128032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:06 hm serve-event is clogged up with lots of file descriptors and handlers. (length sb-impl::*descriptor-handlers*) => 2295. possibly due to excessive run-program without proper cleanup? 08:25:25 seems like i have piles of pipes open 08:25:28 Are you relying on finalizers? 08:26:26 not personally. run-program might be. 08:26:40 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:26:42 Try triggering a GC and see if they go away. 08:27:38 no luck. and I've cleared the presentations out of the slime repl history 08:28:16 Reaver1 [n=Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:33:44 -!- freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:33:46 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:36:19 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:36:45 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:37:56 plutonas [n=plutonas@82-34-207-85.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #lisp 08:39:54 I have a defconstant string, but when I recompile there's a redefinition error, presumably because the new value is equal but not eq/eql the old one. what does one do? 08:40:17 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:40:58 you can do (if (boundp constant) constant "string"), or just don't use constants 08:41:45 having it as a constant seems to greatly enhance performance when it's used as the regexp argument to cl-ppcre 08:41:54 maus [n=maus@222.253.111.80] has joined #lisp 08:42:00 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-107.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:42:06 lukego: look for define-constant in the sbcl docs (and alexandria, I think) 08:42:22 Good afternoon! 08:42:47 you maus! 08:43:06 hello splittist :) 08:43:11 lukego: you can cl-ppcre:create-scanner once too 08:43:12 s/u// (ie 'yo maus') -- and I almost mistyped it that time too 08:43:18 je [n=jean@adsl-70-231-143-62.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:31 thankee splittist 08:45:34 has the package sb-ext always been locked? 08:45:46 Where should tail call optimization be implemented? in the parser, during byte code optimization, or elsewhere? 08:47:09 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:47:46 je: have you read PAIP? I recall it had some simple TCO-capable evaluator and possibly a compilator as well 08:49:38 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:49:46 I really need a profiler. wonder if I need to install linux 08:50:29 `C-c C-c' interrupt on OSX doesn't give a very good backtrace, I only see upto the signal entry. related to the lack of profiler? did someone make a recent fix? 08:51:42 lukego: do you need a statistical profile? because even if sprof is broken on OSX (which I'm not sure about, but obviously have no expertise in) there are other non-statistical profilers about. 08:52:13 that's true, I'll check them out 08:52:36 I guess Apple's profiling tools won't work? :D 08:52:49 p_l: great, I'll get Norvig's book first thing 08:53:04 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 08:53:14 i'm trying to install portable allegroserve on SBCL, and it's complaining that sb-ext is locked. i'm wondering if the locking was enabled recently, because it seems that portable allegroserve is no longer maintained. 08:53:18 je: there's few more books that contain similar examples, but I only read PAIP, so I can't guide you 08:53:22 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:45 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.111.80] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.235] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- snorble [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- Legooolas [n=Legooola@cpc2-aztw14-0-0-cust554.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl932.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- dejones [n=dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:45 cods_ [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:51 Aisling_ [i=ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 08:53:54 tankrim [n=qsvans@c-4cfee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:54:00 -!- Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:54:00 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:54:01 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:54:01 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:54:05 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 maus [n=maus@222.253.111.80] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.235] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 snorble [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 anekos [n=anekos@pl932.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 dejones [n=dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 Legooolas [n=Legooola@cpc2-aztw14-0-0-cust554.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:13 metering.lisp in slime doesn't seem to work in sbcl 08:54:19 lukego, is that x86 32? i have issued with short backtrace on linux x86 32, too (sbcl head)... 08:54:42 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:54:51 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:52 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:52 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:54 lukego: sbcl has its own deterministic profiler 08:54:56 attila_lendvai: yes it is 08:54:56 lithper2, probably out of date and something in some sb-foo package have been renamed meanwhile 08:55:18 minion: logs 08:55:18 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 08:55:40 Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has joined #lisp 08:55:41 backtrace is ok on x86 64, though on the same codebase 08:56:31 stassats`: is the interface usable though? it looks like I have to name every function that I want to profile? (ideally I would like it to be "every function in the image") 08:56:44 you can profile by package 08:56:59 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:09 M-x slime-profile-package 08:57:28 -!- nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:30 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:57:38 there's also M-x slime-profile-by-substring 08:58:13 lispm [n=joswig@dialbs-213-023-246-061.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:11 clhs room 09:01:26 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@82-34-207-85.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:02:08 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:02:36 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:02:46 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:07 lispm: you mean 'l1sp.org/cl/room' ? (; 09:03:20 Reaver2 [n=Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:03:45 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:05:38 attila_lendvai: btw do you think backtrace would be better with 64bit sbcl? 09:06:18 lukego, well, for my specific case on linux x86 64 it's definitely better 09:06:20 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:06:48 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:06:51 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:06:51 mega made sure that backtraces are not heuristic based, but seems like there's some issue in some cases on 32 bit 09:10:33 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:11:45 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-6-197.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 09:12:07 -!- tankrim [n=qsvans@c-4cfee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 09:14:04 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:16:22 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 09:16:32 fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 09:23:34 -!- Reaver1 [n=Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:24:13 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:24:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:43 Nice to see PvE doing some Lisp hacking! I feel weary about the thoughts of integrating clc and clbuild, though :-/ 09:26:53 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:27:12 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-66-210.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:19 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:31:55 -!- cods_ [n=cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:31:57 cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:44 matter and antimatter, what could go wrong? :) 09:33:54 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:32 Has anyone tried http://common-lisp.net/project/lispy/ ? 09:35:43 sounds like clbuild-but-in-CL 09:36:24 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-202-85.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:37:42 oh not quite, it's not always-get-latest-revision 09:41:07 antoine` [i=rollet@tanit.enseirb.fr] has joined #lisp 09:41:25 -!- antoine` [i=rollet@tanit.enseirb.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 09:43:48 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:45:47 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:51 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:49:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:50:54 -!- ud_ [i=ud@ud.net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:56:17 ud_ [i=ud@ud.net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:57:03 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:50 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-90-76.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 10:01:04 TJohn [i=as@114-36-233-167.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:57 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:23 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:02 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:04 mgst11 [n=mgst11@c-24-60-190-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:19 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:15:21 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:18 hello I have to parse an html page to get some information inside it. which library should I use for parsing ? 10:17:33 minion: closure-html? 10:17:34 closure-html: Closure-html is a portable HTML parsing library that understands malformed HTML. http://www.cliki.net/closure-html 10:18:30 stassats`, thank you 10:18:57 After wiping my fasls, compiling fails once then succeeds on subsequent times. It fails because sbcl tries to evaluate forms which it doesn't know are macro arguments. I am sure my asdf dependencies are correct. Is this a common problem? 10:19:01 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:19:09 -!- fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 10:19:40 I hope that the site wouldn't complain for the 8100 http requests I've to do :) 10:19:59 you are sure, but are they in fact correct? 10:20:34 what do youo mean stassats` ? 10:20:39 I don't know how more sure I can be. Is it a symptom of dependency problems? 10:20:46 kiuma: that's not for you 10:20:52 :) ok 10:20:56 If I said they are correct, would you say, "but are you sure?" 10:20:57 it's a symptom of your macros not being known to the system as macros 10:21:10 which usually means that the macro definition hasn't been evaluated yet 10:21:40 mgst11: do you load your files in the right order? 10:22:43 and if macros are in the same file, are they defined before they are used? 10:23:06 Yes I'm sure it's all correct. I don't have any more I could check. It's not very big. The problem occurs when there's a macro expansion inside defmacro. (defmacro (...) (with-gensyms ...)) 10:23:20 oh, here you go 10:23:48 with-gensyms should be defined before it's used 10:23:52 clhs eval-when 10:24:38 but I thought that was the point of asdf? 10:24:42 correct ordering 10:25:04 mgst11: having (defmacro foo (...) ...) (defmacro bar (...) (foo `(frob))) in the same file, won't work 10:25:19 asdf is concerned about files 10:25:26 well it's not the same file. 10:25:27 not what is inside them 10:25:40 but I guess the problem is that defpackage should be alone in its own file 10:26:01 then it wouldn't read that form too soon, I think 10:26:18 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:26:20 CL-USER> (use-package :closure-html) makes slime hang 10:27:06 kiuma: that's a sbcl bug, not slime 10:27:26 ah! do you experience something similar ? 10:28:46 it's https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/511072 10:29:59 oh right I experienced the same 10:30:16 let's wait the next version then :) 10:30:38 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:31:13 anyway I don't know why, but (use-package :drakma) works well 10:31:25 because drakma package exists? 10:31:36 I've only problems with closure-html 10:31:40 stassats`, yes 10:32:03 let me see for closure-html 10:32:08 rather, it exists and doesn't conflict with anything 10:32:26 waiting for the next version isn't going to help 10:32:29 fixing the bug will help 10:33:54 Xof, I have to few experience I think, anyway I would be pleasured to be of some help 10:34:12 (use-package :chtml) doesnt work too (i.e. using nickname) 10:34:31 as i said, it conflicts with cl-user 10:34:57 <_deepfire> Hmm, wouldn't it be nice to be able to bind passed values, without interferring with them? 10:35:15 ah, sorry I didn't understood stassats` 10:35:26 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:35:54 Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-173-180-175.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:35:54 <_deepfire> The current approach of having to serialise/deserialise through a list doesn't feel right. 10:36:23 _deepfire: what do you mean? 10:36:37 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:36:43 kiuma: how many symbols from closure-html are you going to have to use to do what you want to do? You may well find having your editor type chtml: a few times less than onerous. 10:36:57 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 10:37:36 it's usually good no to use every package 10:37:49 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:38:01 <_deepfire> stassats, you have a form returning an unknown number of values and you want to execute another form with a known subset of these values bound, but also you don't want to do anything else to just allow these values to pass further upwards the stack. 10:38:19 I often wish to be able to be within multiple packages at once when working at the REPL 10:38:37 _deepfire: what's wrong with multiple values? 10:38:41 splittist, yes it's not a problem, I'm only using CL to update a database retriving missing information from a ZIP site and mergin ZIP codes with cities, I'm using CL because I'm very tired of java. Prefixing with clhtml: is not a problem 10:38:49 it was just to know 10:38:58 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:39:00 <_deepfire> stassats`, do you understand what I want? 10:39:28 -!- Adlai`` is now known as Adlai 10:39:32 <_deepfire> You can either bind or pass, not both. 10:39:43 you have to repass 10:39:46 <_deepfire> Yes. 10:40:19 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:40:31 but why does M-Tab makes slime hang :( ? 10:40:48 and what is the problem? (m-v-b (a b c) (values 1 2 3) (foo a c)) ? 10:41:01 (not always) now with clhtml:pa(M-tab) 10:41:08 <_deepfire> stassats`, are you reading what I wrote? 10:41:18 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:32 <_deepfire> Because if you do I don't understand how your proposal solves anything. 10:42:22 he wants (multiple-value-bind (,@variables) ,form (multiple-value-prog1 (values ,@variables) ,@body)) 10:42:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:42:48 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:43:34 <_deepfire> Right, except I don't know 'variables' at compile time. 10:43:46 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:44:02 <_deepfire> And arguably I don't have to. 10:44:23 -!- rlonstei1 is now known as rlonstein 10:44:40 <_deepfire> Or, more specifically, I don't know the /whole/ of it. 10:44:58 Uh well seems like a rare case; Just use mv-list and values-list and don't bother wasting brain cycles ;-) 10:45:01 <_deepfire> Just the subset I'm interested to bind. 10:45:31 if you don't know them at compile-time, then you don't want lexical bindings (because those are inherently compile-time things) 10:45:40 in which case, progv is the operator you are looking for 10:46:06 _deepfire: do you want a syntactic change or are you talking efficiency? In the former case, write a macro already. In the latter case, it's an implementation-specific question. 10:46:10 <_deepfire> Xof, I know a fixed subset at the head of the values list, but I don't know the tail.. 10:46:30 <_deepfire> lichtblau, the latter, yes 10:47:13 <_deepfire> But multiple values themselves are an efficiency tweak, arent them? 10:47:21 <_deepfire> *they 10:47:28 No not only 10:47:37 but not arbitrary number of them 10:48:03 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:48:08 <_deepfire> stassats`, well, if you want to preserve orthogonality you need the arbitrarity. 10:48:16 with the semantics in CL they also allow smooth upgrading of functions without having to update callers in many cases 10:48:56 _deepfire: i mean that if you have too many multiple values then they probably wouldn't be optimized 10:49:18 <_deepfire> stassats`, yes, I understand.. 10:49:35 is there a way to tell (SB)CL to do a GC? 10:49:42 (sb-ext:gc) 10:49:46 nice 10:50:19 hmm, didn't change memory usage... I wonder what's taking up those 97MB 10:50:33 (sb-ext:gc :full t) also 10:50:51 nice :P that freed 3MB :D 10:51:19 sigh: every time I hit tab, slime? hangs :( :( 10:51:29 RaceCondition: (room) 10:51:44 luis: what? 10:51:49 kiuma: after restart, too? 10:51:57 tcr, yes 10:52:05 RaceCondition: (room) will tell you a little bit about what's taking up 97MB 10:52:16 luis: oh :P 10:52:20 (room t) might tell you more 10:52:42 _deepfire: did you consider dynamic-extent for optimization? 10:52:59 -!- mgst11 [n=mgst11@c-24-60-190-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:53:10 <_deepfire> The reason I want this is when, within function A, I want to pass/bind values from function B which has (multiple-value-call #'values x (C)) 10:53:29 tcr, the console where I started swank doesn't say anything 10:53:33 oh, well, (room t) didn't give me anything useful and after a restart the memory usage is still 80MB, I guess that's normal 10:53:41 <_deepfire> I.e. the semantics of function B is that it prepends a value to unknown input. 10:54:12 <_deepfire> And function A wants to pass all the values, but also to access X. 10:54:21 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e195-055.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:55:08 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 10:55:38 <_deepfire> stassats`, no, because I don't know lifetimes as I'm making a generic construct. 10:55:49 _deepfire: Perhaps you can reorder, to call C in A first, then pass necessary arguments to B to obtain X, then return everything 10:56:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:41 tcr: I have Error in process filter: Invalid protocol message 10:56:54 any suggestion ? 10:57:17 Yes paste *inferior-lisp* and *slime-events* 10:57:29 ok 10:59:22 tcr, where are thos buffers in emacs ? 10:59:51 ? 10:59:56 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:25 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:01:38 kiuma: buffers with *s can get shuffled to the end of the buffer list, so start spelling them out... 11:01:43 tcr, are they buffers ? I only have my lisp file, SLIME repl, *Messages*, *Slime error*, *GNU Emacs*, and messages in the menu 11:02:06 C-x b *inferior-lisp* 11:03:52 <_deepfire> tcr, there is a dependency: C depends on X.. 11:04:16 <_deepfire> tcr, which is computed in B prior to C's call 11:04:47 <_deepfire> tcr, I.e. B abstracts calling arbitrary functions in X's context. 11:05:52 tcr, I don't know why. I can't reproduce it! 11:05:53 then perhaps C can be regarded as B's continuation and should be passed X, and also return it 11:06:07 I try to kill emacs then 11:06:33 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:06:56 <_deepfire> tcr, The problem is that X is created using B's parameters 11:07:19 yeah sure 11:07:26 <_deepfire> tcr, i.e. B abstracts X's creation 11:07:35 <_deepfire> part of it 11:08:18 <_deepfire> Basically, B allocates X, and then mutates it using C. 11:08:47 <_deepfire> But C also /might/ happen to have unrelated values, which we don't want to lose. 11:09:23 If C mutates X, it sounds like it's all your code 11:10:06 <_deepfire> tcr, X is an assembly segment which C emits instructions into 11:10:11 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:48 It's amazing how much better one's Lisp runs if the arguments to subrs come in the right order. :-) 11:11:15 jsnell, antifuchs: lisp beers? feb 27? vienna? 11:11:26 stassats`, C-x b *inferior-lisp* doesnt exists 11:11:46 kiuma: remote connection? 11:11:55 <_deepfire> tcr, the function A is a layer above and uploads the segment into a device -- and is a backend function invoke-with-segment-uploaded-to-device used to implement a macro WITH-SEGMENT-UPLOADED-TO-DEVICE 11:12:38 *Xach* prepares to mark feb 27 on the calendar for the Austrian National Lisp Meeting 11:12:46 stassats`, yes 11:12:59 _deepfire: I'm too hungry to deeply think into your problem; if it's all your code it just seems like you're aiming for non-necessary generality 11:13:01 kiuma: then it shouldn't exists 11:13:15 <_deepfire> tcr, it isn't desirable for such a generic macro to lose values, for obvious orthogonality reasons 11:13:17 well then I have no messages :/ 11:14:07 _deepfire: The macro seems to depend on some part of the return values, so there's an implicit protocol in place already 11:14:09 <_deepfire> tcr, I might sound as unnecessary generality, but the system I build is a large one, with non-trivial uses 11:14:19 kiuma: you have remote lisp still 11:14:25 <_deepfire> s/I/it/ 11:14:34 _deepfire: I would suggest to make the protocol implicit, e.g. by turning the results in a structure 11:14:41 sorry I mean to make it _explicit_ 11:14:46 it's on my local console 11:15:09 stassats`, should I start slime from emacs to make a test? 11:15:13 <_deepfire> tcr, the variety of contexts in which that macro is used precludes that, unfortunately 11:15:27 kiuma: did you look at your local console? 11:16:03 _deepfire: That sounds very suspicious. Contexts vary yet are similiar enough that the macro can look at some return values? 11:16:14 It generally doesn't show anything. 11:16:32 Now yes, but I sent aprocess kill from menu 11:16:45 <_deepfire> tcr, as I said, A knows that the segment is prepended by B to an unknown number of values. 11:16:58 <_deepfire> Just that.. 11:17:21 kiuma pasted "swank problems" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93988 11:17:51 _deepfire: perhaps the current segment should rather be a special variable? 11:18:14 <_deepfire> tcr, it is, during the call to C, actually. 11:18:54 <_deepfire> tcr, but that's where the specific, fixed context ends. 11:19:25 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:04 tcr, stassats` : I've got the error now :) 11:20:17 <_deepfire> tcr, it's an upper, arch-specific, convenience layer of a generic assembly infrastructure, which has numerous wide uses 11:20:46 kiuma annotated #93988 "sbcl/slime error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93988#1 11:20:57 <_deepfire> tcr, i.e. both the segment and the generated values are plausibly useful, as the context of use is unpredictable. 11:21:22 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has joined #lisp 11:21:23 it is the *inferior-lisp* 11:21:54 that's a rather uninformative error 11:21:56 <_deepfire> I'm about to opensource that stuff, any day now, actually. 11:22:36 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:42 (:emacs-rex (swank:listener-eval " (use-package :drakma)\n") "COMMON-LISP-USER" :repl-thread 14) 11:23:01 this is *slime-events* 11:23:10 that is _all_? 11:23:59 stassats`, I can try from a clean emacs start 11:24:23 I then paste all events and info of what I'm doing 11:28:34 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:28:42 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 11:30:48 doesn't happen again :( 11:32:08 reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-161-146.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:34:43 Kaviado [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:54 lukego: hi there 11:37:12 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 11:37:30 antifuchs: so current rumour is lispmeet vienna feb 27. good for you? 11:37:39 lukego, tcr: feb 27 sounds good 11:37:42 antifuchs: I can't make it on 20th, so I propsed the week later 11:38:40 ok with me - calendar says I'm free (: 11:39:13 great, let's lock it in. I'm also going to the berlin meetup on march 2nd (Edi Weitz too). jsnell has options to choose from :) 11:39:24 -!- lispm [n=joswig@dialbs-213-023-246-061.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:39:57 cool stuff (: 11:40:20 let me know where when you arrive so I can get you from respective train stations / airports (: 11:41:03 Could you send me your mobile number via e-mail? 11:41:52 sweet! 11:41:58 sure 11:42:02 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@119.110.101.218] has quit [] 11:42:46 antifuchs: Also mention the place where we are going to meet 11:42:49 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tdtatrucuvlipfdg] has joined #lisp 11:42:55 antifuchs: what do you recommend for converting a CVS repository into git? 11:43:54 Xof: for SBCL, git-cvsimport is usually good enough. For repositories with a less disciplined history (and more merges), fromcvs/togit: http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/fromcvs 11:44:33 ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-64-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:44:50 I use fromcvs for the mcclim git gateway, and I've had successes with it on large proprietary codebases, too (: 11:45:47 tcr: sent (: 11:46:31 -!- Reaver2 [n=Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:47:24 Reaver1 [n=Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:48:58 don't we have something like get-element-by-tag-name ? 11:51:51 kiuma: cxml can do xpath expression lookups. 11:52:00 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:52:17 antifuchs, I know but dom is easier 11:53:08 *lichtblau* wasn't certain whether that XMLish sounding question was actually about XML and cxml 11:54:12 it's get-ELEMENTS-by-tag-name (note plural) 11:55:01 sorry, you are right, but where is it defined ? 11:55:38 rune-dom::get-elements-by-tag-name-internal ?? 11:55:48 no exten ? 11:55:54 *extern 11:57:08 Read the fine documentation at http://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/dom.html which tells you how the mapping is designed and that the package is called DOM. 11:57:09 Or use APROPOS. 11:57:24 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:57:43 thanks 11:58:44 -!- je [n=jean@adsl-70-231-143-62.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:59:25 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-guhetkfqjxonpedh] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 12:02:20 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [Client Quit] 12:04:04 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:05:17 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 12:12:30 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-161-146.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e195-055.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.111.80] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- snorble [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- Legooolas [n=Legooola@cpc2-aztw14-0-0-cust554.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl932.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- dejones [n=dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.235] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:30 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:12:49 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-161-146.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e195-055.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 maus [n=maus@222.253.111.80] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.235] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 snorble [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 anekos [n=anekos@pl932.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 dejones [n=dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 Legooolas [n=Legooola@cpc2-aztw14-0-0-cust554.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:23 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:13:33 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:21 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-sybgfqjullzzxvon] has joined #lisp 12:21:53 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229151224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:22:02 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.10] has joined #lisp 12:23:51 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229128032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:31:43 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:20 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:05 besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:33:23 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:34:46 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.21] has joined #lisp 12:35:19 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has left #lisp 12:45:47 lispm [n=joswig@dialbs-213-023-246-061.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:25 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@ip-118-90-32-29.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:52:52 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:54 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@softbank221066001155.bbtec.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:59:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:01:32 antifuchs: there's a mcclim git gateway? 13:01:35 shows how much I know 13:02:56 Xof: http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/mcclim.git is it (: 13:04:11 hmm.. I have to move my clbuild sources to git, then 13:05:40 hey a quesion: I think I've killed a server with my robot 13:05:50 is http://www.nonsolocap.it/ still alive ? 13:06:49 kiuma: yes 13:07:03 I think I've been banned then :( 13:07:35 benny` [n=benny@i577A794B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:39 I have a 403 :/ 13:08:18 no way to get all cities zip codes :-( 13:10:01 I knew I should place a sleep between calls :((( 13:10:28 kiuma: time for distributed web scraping, something for which cl is especially suited! 13:10:39 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:12:05 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:12:17 regarding web scraping, what lib do you recommend for parsing HTML? 13:12:53 Closure HTML seems nice to me. 13:15:16 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:19 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A19C0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:21 does anyone here use ABL? 13:18:28 Care to share your configuration with me? 13:18:35 or your experience and desiderata? 13:19:00 Boeing YAL-1 Airborne Laser? 13:19:41 -!- tomaw [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit ["Quitting"] 13:19:43 stassats`, sorry, I don't have a spare one to let you 13:20:10 so, what's ABL for you? 13:20:12 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:24 tomaw [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 13:20:25 asdf binary locations? 13:21:44 <_deepfire> Xof, there's git-cvsimport which works on scale of desire's definitions -- tens of projects 13:21:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:34 <_deepfire> Xof, works with both :pserver: and :local: 13:22:45 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:24:22 p_l, I used closure-html and cxml/dom 13:24:37 *p_l* did some experiments with closure-html and cxml/stp 13:25:36 Xach, which timing between calls would you suggest to avoid banning (I've to make 8100 calls)? 13:25:46 ck [n=ck@65.199.190.170] has joined #lisp 13:25:54 kiuma: 300 seconds 13:26:05 hug! 13:26:07 -!- ck is now known as Guest57195 13:26:11 *Xach* hugs kiuma 13:26:22 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@130.34.188.206] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:31 Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 13:26:37 with 300 seconds I get older then what I am :) 13:27:00 did you want to get younger? 13:27:08 then use -300 seconds 13:27:09 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-161-146.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:27:26 may lisp do that too ? WOOT 13:27:50 kiuma: i am sad you don't read planet lisp :( 13:28:10 I read it nearly every day, not today 13:28:27 is there something concerning this ? 13:29:20 "Stupidly simple distributed computing with CL" is the arrticle ? 13:29:37 yes 13:30:44 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 13:30:57 lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 13:32:56 xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:33:23 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:33:39 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has joined #lisp 13:34:37 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Client Quit] 13:35:42 Xach, ok with multipe workers I could go faster, but (I don't know if what I'm saying is true) I was banned because requests from the same ip was too frequent 13:35:47 I see logical pathnames there ;D 13:36:10 s/was/where/ 13:36:14 kiuma: so, make requests from different ips 13:36:26 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:26 hehe, if I could :P 13:36:31 how do you synchronize the workers? 13:36:49 talking to a web server? 13:36:54 Fare: Yes. 13:37:47 At first I thought I would use lots of failure recovery techniques (e.g. handling a worker that took a task and didn't finish it). But that turned out to be unnecessary, everything worked fine with the simple scheme. 13:37:50 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 13:38:03 I've been meaning to write a cl client library for beanstalkd 13:38:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:38:15 (which does the whole queuing/worker-health thing) 13:38:35 -!- porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- foom2 [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- borisc [n=borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- Carnegie [n=nn@studio25.org] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- egn [n=egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- jyujin_ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- hohum [i=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- housel [n=user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- nuba [n=nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- kencausey [n=ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root13@69.164.215.87] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- djm [n=djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:35 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:38:36 porcelina_ [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:37 jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:38 FullMetalHarlot [n=root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:38 egn_ [n=egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:39 dostoyev1ky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:42 foom2 [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:43 nuba [n=nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:43 ennen [n=nn@209.20.81.227] has joined #lisp 13:38:43 borisc [n=borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 13:38:44 djm [n=djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has joined #lisp 13:38:44 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 13:38:45 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 13:38:48 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 13:38:49 housel [n=nuser@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 13:38:51 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:51 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:53 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:54 hohum [i=dcorbe@206.71.169.114] has joined #lisp 13:38:56 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:39:01 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 13:39:02 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:39:11 kencausey [n=ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 13:39:11 tau [n=tau@189.127.57.72] has joined #lisp 13:39:12 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:13 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:17 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:19 where are dalton ? 13:39:20 It was hard to get away from thinking "how can this go wrong?" because there were many, many answers to that question. I figured I'd try a cheesy first version and fix the actual problems it had for version 2. 13:39:20 I wrote that farmer some time ago, that uses call/cc to implement green threads and with them all the concurrency and recovery primitives on the server side 13:39:24 I didn't need version 2. 13:39:51 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-16-219.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:39:53 thanks mostly, i think, to reb :) 13:40:19 reb? 13:40:26 Xach: the thing I would like to use this for pretty much requires some of the features that beanstalk offers (delayed jobs, job priorities), so hm. 13:40:39 -!- xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:00 -!- sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41:14 if I do get around to writing this, then it'll be in the next few weeks. if not, well (: 13:42:01 antifuchs, did I tell you that in the end, I'd rather next ADG "just" use sb-cover instead of a heuristic that ends up heavily sbcl-skewed anyway? 13:42:20 antifuchs: I've lucked out recently by getting some tasks that could be solved with a general (but possibly expensive to set up) system and finding out they can be solved with a simpler one-off system. 13:42:24 xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:42:34 Fare: heh. no, you didn't yet (: 13:43:04 Fare: i had to scrape some google groups data without getting blocked from google. reb ran one of the workers from the inside at insanely fast rates. 13:43:31 so it was an inside job! 13:43:39 yes. cheating, really. 13:43:49 i'm thankful for his generous help :) 13:43:50 hyp3rvigi1ant [n=greg@c-68-40-186-177.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:00 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-244-53.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:06 what would erik naggum say? 13:44:11 yo luis, how's life? 13:44:24 WWENS ? 13:44:35 tcr: tough question. What's up? :) 13:45:01 luis: tough question. How do you do? 13:45:18 so, no one with feedback about ABL? 13:45:34 (I'm always baffled by how quickly stupid memes come up on reddit comments) 13:45:48 Fare: I've been using ABL for ages. 13:45:53 frustrating. I don't know if I should replace it with something better, or keep it backwards compatible. 13:46:04 considering it's been merged with asdf recently 13:46:19 I don't think many people use a new-enough asdf 13:46:20 luis: can you share your configuration of it? did you do anything fancy? 13:46:23 I don't think I've used the asdf-included version yet. 13:46:46 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:53 would you want the asdf version to be backwards compatible with it, or is it enough that it should provide equivalent functionality? 13:47:34 (setq asdf:*centralize-lisp-binaries* t asdf:*default-toplevel-directory* (~ "fasls/")) 13:47:35 I'm going to have a ABL equivalent, except configured through /etc/common-lisp/asdf-binary-locations.conf or some such 13:48:24 thanks 13:48:36 I don't particularly care about backwards compatibility. But I think I'd rather set it up through my .sbclrc rather than some /etc file. 13:48:44 is it ok if I use ~/.cache/common-lisp instead of ~/.fasls ? 13:48:48 by default 13:48:56 BTW, assuming SBCL upgrades to "new ASDF", I'm thinking about enabling ABL in clbuild, with fasls going to clbuild/fasls or something. 13:49:00 (setf asdf:*centralize-lisp-binaries* t asdf:*default-toplevel-directory* (~ "lisp/fasls/")) is mine 13:49:12 would be ~/.config/common-lisp/asdf-binary-locations.conf 13:49:16 What the popular opinion on this? Should clbuild do it by default or only as an option? 13:49:25 stassats`: ah, you have a ~ function too? :) 13:49:44 lichtblau: sounds like a good default to me. 13:49:50 Yeah to me too 13:50:01 luis: yeah, though i use it only in the config 13:50:05 <_deepfire> lichtblau, Fare wants a system-wide configuration for binaries 13:50:07 luis: In your experience, how many .asds out there break with ABL? 13:50:26 <_deepfire> Oh, Fare is here.. 13:50:41 i don't remember any troubles with ABL 13:50:47 lichtblau: only early versions of cffi.asd 13:50:54 after I'm done with this ABL configuration, I think I can release asdf 2.000 13:50:55 cffi-tests.asd actually 13:51:50 tcr: btw, the other day you mentioned I hadn't credited hefner in my blog post, but I did. 13:53:03 I must have missed that 13:53:34 why can't I define a function with a name of \ in (SB)CL? 13:53:43 you can 13:54:05 (defun \\ ()) 13:54:09 oh 13:54:12 -!- ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:20 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 13:54:24 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:54:38 \ is an escaping char 13:54:42 hello 13:54:54 *Xach* wonders if there's a lookalike REVERSE_VIRGULE or something like that. 13:54:55 stassats`: oh, I didn't know it as an esc char in Lisp too 13:55:01 quick, hold on to it! 13:55:07 otherwise it will escape 13:55:17 ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:56:09 u+29F5 reverse solidus operator is what I'd try 13:56:14 mathrick [n=mathrick@dlink214.imada.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 13:56:23 fe[nl]ix: I've created a launchpad thingie for CFFI. I'll fill it in with my TODO list in the next few days. 13:56:34 (defun |\| () |/|) 13:56:34 cool 13:56:55 Fare: nice try, bat man 13:57:10 -!- xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:57:17 looks like a crab 13:57:34 luis: how is that foreign-library patch coming up ? 13:58:23 fe[nl]ix: I hope say. Do you need it for iolib or something? 13:58:24 Fare: what does that do? 13:58:31 s/say/so/ 13:58:44 RaceCondition: fails 13:58:49 Xach: cool 13:58:54 \ is a the single escape character in || too 13:59:08 RaceCondition, there's one way to know, and one actor to ask. 13:59:14 btw, how do I clear the "scrollback" on a SLIME REPL? 13:59:21 RaceCondition: C-c M-o 13:59:22 C-c M-o 13:59:22 ave fe[nl]ix :) 13:59:24 :( 13:59:32 luis: not directly, but I'd like to make a new cffi release in order to release iolib too 13:59:35 ave kiuma 13:59:43 stassats`: thanks! 13:59:55 fe[nl]ix: ok. Do you have a timeframe? 14:00:00 fe[nl]ix, what configuration would you like for ABL? Did you look at my configuration thingie for source-registry? 14:00:19 fe[nl]ix, any feedback on it? Does it satisfy you? 14:00:38 btw, is there a way to list all the "vacant" double-keybindings? 14:00:42 or single 14:00:57 luis: how about we make a release this weekend ? 14:00:59 as in boundp and fboundp ? 14:01:08 of course that's no a #lisp question... 14:01:13 RaceCondition, for emacs help, ask on #emacs 14:01:16 list all defined, then complement 14:01:32 fe[nl]ix: sounds like a nice target. 14:01:36 Fare: only superficially 14:02:11 RaceCondition: wouldn't that depend on what's on your keyboard? (but, yes, #emacs - unless you have a space cadet keyboard (: ) 14:02:38 splittist: how much do those space cadet keyboards cost? (the name definitely sounds geeky) 14:02:48 Fare: The only way to read about that source-registry stuff is to look into the git tree; I suggest to blog about it. 14:05:03 -!- hyp3rvigi1ant [n=greg@c-68-40-186-177.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:05:57 tcr: OK 14:05:59 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 14:07:51 lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 14:08:03 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has left #lisp 14:10:49 reprore [n=reprore@EM111-188-18-42.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:13:02 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:13:16 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM111-188-18-42.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:17:05 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:17:17 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:17:56 -!- besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:51 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:26:03 xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 14:27:43 joswig [n=joswig@dialbs-213-023-246-061.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:00 -!- lispm [n=joswig@dialbs-213-023-246-061.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:28:55 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:29:03 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 14:30:01 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 14:30:11 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:30:42 ...and boinkmarks was offline for the time period for major speed regressions. boo. 14:32:05 aaargh. Running tcpdump on wifi at uni without filtering is madness 14:32:31 p_l: you catch too much lisp code? 14:33:02 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:33:33 -!- Sergio`__ is now known as Sergio` 14:33:41 stassats`: no, I catch ton of macs chattering and p2p codeapps trying to do anything 14:35:39 given that the access to internet is through proxy, it's all idle chatter ;-) 14:36:37 Well, I suspect that few windows systems with iTunes or other software installed also join the mac chatter 14:38:06 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:09 btw, to anyone using UCW - have you ever tried running in <0.5G space? 14:39:38 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-64-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:40:01 p_l: breifly on my old eeepc 14:40:09 it went, but not well 14:41:07 cause I need to work with 480MB of dynamic space, on x86-64 (SBCL 1.0.12.42 with relocation patches) 14:42:43 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:39 what's the reason for the <0.5G dynspace requirement? 14:46:46 -!- joswig [n=joswig@dialbs-213-023-246-061.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:52 if you're memory bound, does it have to be sbcl 14:48:04 are trying to save memory or trying to deal with layout issues? 14:48:12 is it about live data or code? 14:48:17 -!- xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:48:50 I'm guessing it can't be layout issues, since you're on 64 bit, and for code you could count on COW for the oldest generation. 14:49:13 So it's about memory allocated for UCW run-time data? 14:49:24 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:50:29 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:09 -!- tau [n=tau@189.127.57.72] has left #lisp 14:51:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 14:52:37 whats the least painful way to parse xml with sbcl 14:52:45 minion: cxml? 14:52:46 cxml: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cxml 14:52:54 felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 14:53:38 I am a big fan of CXML 14:54:06 there's also stuff built on cxml, such as cxml-stp and cl-xmlspam 14:55:13 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:55:18 Borbus_ [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:20 -!- Guest57195 [n=ck@65.199.190.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:55:27 thanks - it sure looks a lot more maintained than what i've been looking at so far 14:55:43 -!- Borbus_ is now known as Borbus 14:56:00 sometimes things don't need active maintenance to remain really useful. 14:56:03 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 14:56:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:56:30 If I have a function that returns, say (cdr p), is it possible to do (setf (my-fun p) ... ) ? 14:57:23 defun (setf my-fun) (val p) 14:57:38 is one way 14:58:43 Oh and then do (setf (cdr (my-fun p)) ... ) ? 14:59:02 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:22 Borbus: that would be a different thing 14:59:47 Borbus: no, (defun (setf my-fun) (new-value p) (setf (cdr p) new-value)) 15:00:40 Oh, I see, so that makes it "setf'able"? 15:00:46 yes 15:00:53 Ahh.. thanks 15:02:16 this backtrace problem is starting to feel a bit chronic :) any workarounds? 15:03:23 lukego: downgrading? 15:03:32 when was it introduced? 15:04:08 downgrading to linux? 15:04:29 cadabra [n=cadabra@c-174-52-81-75.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:49 lukego: I don't know. Just get a few binaries from the website and try them 15:04:54 lukego: I have a possible workaround for you, actually. 15:05:22 ... if I can remember where I put the patch. 15:05:45 http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/commitdiff/5bb68e49754aadd2742d8a8e7f7c8ecc8c2ae785 15:06:46 It's x86oid only, but that shouldn't bother you, and you'll need to build with this patch and LDB enabled, but if you get a truncated backtrace you can alien-funcall to LDB and do a backtrace-from-context, which might be of use. 15:06:46 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:08:10 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:26 <_deepfire> Okay, I released my JTAG debugger. 15:08:30 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:09:36 _deepfire, embedded CL? 15:10:17 <_deepfire> Guthur, no, driving a JTAG target using a CL substrate. 15:11:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:11:39 I have yet to try JTAG, its on my wishlist of things to get though. 15:11:42 <_deepfire> Abstraction goes from that upwards to running sythesized function calls and target testing. 15:11:59 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.111.80] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:12:21 xan [n=xan@a91-153-250-158.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:12:36 <_deepfire> I'm very glad my bossman allowed to release it. 15:13:01 <_deepfire> It's not complete, though, as target-specific pieces need to be filled in. 15:14:27 ya more code for that sort of thing is code, it seems to have tendency to stay closed source 15:15:43 <_deepfire> I tried hard, though, to abstract stuff so the closed part is less than 30%. 15:16:55 <_deepfire> And if you add here the support libraries (register nomenclature, device model, assembler/disassembler) which are also open, it goes even further down. 15:17:12 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:17:59 <_deepfire> Oh, add here the binary format parser generator with ELF definitions. 15:18:36 _deepfire: what are you using for assembler? 15:18:53 <_deepfire> p_l, git://git.feelingofgreen.ru/assem 15:19:06 thank younyef 15:20:19 <_deepfire> I tried hard to extend it to cover our SIMD DSP ISA, but the insn format was way too complicated for me then. It's ok for MIPS, though. 15:20:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 15:21:57 unturing.lisp is some programming language I guess? 15:22:09 <_deepfire> p_l, no, it's a basic block graph reconstructor 15:22:40 ah. I just looked over the structure, no time to read over the code (unfortunately can't really use it for my project) 15:23:37 (I just love licensing issues) 15:23:45 <_deepfire> There was even a nice CLIM GUI app walking you through the BB graph :-) 15:24:49 regarding CLIM, anyone recalls what happened to framebuffer backend? 15:26:34 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 15:30:23 tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:30:31 Greetings lispers. 15:30:41 (herep drewc) 15:31:20 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 15:33:32 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:22 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:36:12 stassats`: btw, regarding lisp @ university - judging by the version of AllegroCL in Computing Science Dept., there wasn't anything serious done in Lisp for a long time... otoh, at least some linux workstations that I encountered had preinstalled CMUCL 15:36:35 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:36:43 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tdtatrucuvlipfdg] has left #lisp 15:37:27 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:35 tmh pasted "Object Constructor Aesthetics" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93997 15:37:49 (we have AllegroCL 5.0.1 on SPARCs) 15:39:05 tmh: #2 15:39:16 tmh: I like option 2 as well 15:39:22 jsfb [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has joined #lisp 15:39:46 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-112-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:40:02 I find #3 ok too, depending on the application as you said 15:41:09 #2 & #3 15:41:22 Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:41:58 Generally, I have been using option 2, but realize that I've been doing it wrong. I've been including input validation there instead of in SHARED-INITIALIZE and friends. I've also realized that there are cases where option 3 is more readable. I think the example I presented would be an option 3 case. 15:42:11 is your class part of a protocol? 15:42:24 if it is, and if the user is conceptually allowed to subclass it, the answer is "none of the above" 15:43:30 One of my applications is a hierarchy of matrix classes that the user would be allowed/encouraged to subclass. So if "none of the above", what is the correct constructor? 15:44:14 SHARED-INITIALIZE 15:44:21 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:44:24 well, you mustn't hard-code either the class name or the initargs 15:44:44 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@lynx.stud.ntnu.no] has quit ["((lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda)) `(lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda)))"] 15:45:37 so maybe (defun point (x1 x2 x3 &optional (class 'point) &rest initargs) (apply #'make-instance class :x1 x1 :x2 x2 :x3 x3 initargs)) 15:45:45 not completely tasteful 15:45:59 In the matrix class case, I don't hard-code the class name or initargs. What I did do that demonstrates my ignorance is define a generic function initialize-matrix that essentially duplicates the functionality of INITIALIZE-INSTANCE 15:46:40 Xof: That is the general direction I'm heading with some of my applications. 15:47:52 I think the person who subclasses point can provide her own make-point constructor 15:48:36 I think the style guide by Norvig and Pitman needs to be updated and expanded. 15:48:37 and if something wants to create points, possibly subclasses of those, it can take a function to do that 15:50:09 Thanks for the input, I feel better about the development of my lisp programming style. 15:50:32 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:35 adeht: if you want to systematically have your code be applicable to subclasses of your classes, you have to do that from the start 15:51:02 Xof: yep 15:51:30 that is, you can't ever use #'make-point, you have to have (defvar *point-creator-function* #'make-point) and (funcall *point-creator-function*) everywhere (or lexicals passed everywhere) 15:51:35 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:52:00 ok, so what's the advantage over a single constructor which handles variable class-name and additional initargs? 15:52:44 or is it another way of saying the same thing? 15:53:05 Xof: with that constructor you have to do that, too.. unless you make the default value of CLASS a special variable or something 15:53:53 Xof: you can also use change-class :) 15:54:10 yay for updated boinkmarks 15:55:01 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 15:55:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 15:56:47 well, maybe this is not quite right place to ask this, but did anyone here deal with mprotect() to make malloc()'d memory executable? 15:56:49 I've made a patch for clisp's ffcall that makes it use posix_memalign() instead of malloc() to allocate trampolines, as malloc()+mprotect() was failing on linux-armel, but Dr. Bruno Haible doesn't seem to believe me the problem exists... 15:57:47 Xof: even if you have a special variable *point-class* for the constructor function, you can't sanely provide additional initargs.. *point-creator-function* does that 15:57:50 -!- tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 15:58:14 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-16-219.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:59:00 mm, good point 15:59:09 Xof: also, if you want to use pools or resource or such, creator-function works better 15:59:14 resources 15:59:39 ivan4th: you can't (portably) mix malloc and mprotect. Use mmap directly. 16:00:00 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:01:45 mixing malloc & mprotect is asking for problems 16:01:51 pkhuong: any sources? Yes, I've seen POSIX says so, but some people say posix_memalign() can be used too, so there seems to be some misunderstanding... 16:03:12 ivan4th: It might be empirically true, if one is lucky and/or uses large enough allocation sizes. 16:03:17 ivan4th: just use mmap(). use of posix_memalign is unspecified as well 16:03:21 But posix is very clear on the topicc. 16:03:39 p_l, pkhuong: mprotect() manpage example uses memalign 16:03:59 (ubuntu jaunty) 16:04:01 ivan4th: then it's a bug in manpage. 16:04:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:18 when in doubt, Read The Fatter Manual 16:04:25 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.204.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:04:28 ok, thanks 16:04:29 Which is not surprising, as linux manpages don't have very good reputation (but still better than GNU manpages...) 16:04:35 it's not like linux ever pretended they obeyed posix strictly. 16:04:36 Xof: this reminded me of Siskind's paper ftp://ftp.ecn.purdue.edu/qobi/popl2007b.pdf 16:04:40 *p_l* uses manpages from POSIX standard 16:04:58 GNU manpages: use info for the readl manpage 16:05:38 konr [n=user@189.98.33.51] has joined #lisp 16:06:51 ivan4th: btw, the example in linux manpage uses parameters that kinda insure that mmap() would work correctly *on linux* 16:08:12 namely it makes sure the buffer is page aligned, so the mmap() call translates easily into change of bits in pagetable 16:09:15 p_l: as far as I understand there's more to it than page alignment. In some cases mprotect() may even silently fail 16:09:33 ivan4th: yes, it could also set your computer on fire. 16:10:01 or you might trigger the HCF instruction 16:10:18 ... BKPT? 16:10:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:10:44 in case, the memory didn't become executable despite the fact that the buffer was aligned properly 16:11:04 using posix_memalign() instead of malloc() fixed it for some reason 16:11:32 (Oh, look! ARM has this lovely BKPT instruction that has an uninterpreted data field and causes a trap to the kernel. This would be -perfect- for the internal-error trap in SBCL! Too bad it's a -memory fault-, and the system treats it as a page fault and doesn't actually report the trap to user-mode...) 16:11:50 ivan4th: how big is the buffer? 16:12:08 nyef: you expect kernel developers to provide useful information to userspace about traps? surely you jest... 16:12:11 p_l: single page IIRC 16:12:40 Turns out the actual way to get a SIGTRAP is to use SWI 0, which is an actual system call. 16:12:41 ivan4th: FYI, GNU libc's malloc() gives you 8 byte alignement, not pagesize 16:13:13 p_l: there were some tricks in place that found out in which pages did the allocated chunk lie 16:13:29 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-9-116.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:13:31 ivan4th: mprotect otoh requires the address to start exactly on page boundary (which is what mmap() gives you) 16:13:34 -!- xan [n=xan@a91-153-250-158.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:13:56 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-244-53.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 16:14:56 basically, clisp apparently uses dirty hacks instead of simply calling mmap() then mprotect() 16:15:06 http://github.com/ivan4th/ffcall-maemo/blob/master/trampoline/trampoline.c#L389 -- here's malloc, look for mprotect below 16:16:14 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:17:48 Not that SBCL -doesn't- use dirty hacks when allocating code buffers for its FFI... Just different dirty hacks. 16:18:01 BTW, if there are people who know ARM well, are there currently any systems in use that employ APCS-26? Or was it just an old RISC OS thing? 16:18:02 why don't you USE_FREELIST and EXECUABLE_VIA_MMAP_FOO? 16:19:12 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:19:15 pkhuong: it's ok for trampoline, but there's also trampoline_r which supposed to be thread safe (CLISP readies to get thread support currently AFAIK). They were willing to avoid freelist and need for locks there 16:19:33 -!- Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:19:51 because mmap or mprotect don't involve locks? 16:19:58 Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:20:06 mmap is atomic, isn't it? 16:20:17 you can't just allocate a page for each trampoline 16:20:24 the page must contain many 16:20:35 otherwise you're wasting memory 16:20:38 thus freelist etc. 16:20:54 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:54 ivan4th: "must"? You're missing my point: they are already using locks with mprotect. 16:21:31 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e195-055.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:21:48 pkhuong: they may use locks, but if ffcall has own freelist structure, it must be explicitly locked too 16:22:14 thus they will have to use pthread, etc. 16:22:44 ivan4th: pretty sure that's an old RISC OS thing; modern ARM systems use the new EABI 16:22:47 nyef: nothing for it but sbcl on bare metal ARM 16:23:10 ivan4th: that malloc should be IMHO replaced with mmap(NULL, sizeof(void*) + TRAMP_LENGTH + TRAMP_ALIGN-1, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE|PROT_EXEC, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1,0); 16:23:11 Not going there. 16:23:39 ivan4th: they only use to use pthread if they have threads. Or do they really mean *reentrant*? 16:24:28 pkhuong: reentrancy is easier. But they ARE going to add threads to CLISP, thus non-locked freelist will break 16:24:47 afaik latest clisp already has threading? 16:25:04 p_l: very experimental 16:25:08 ivan4th: easier? I doubt that. 16:25:45 But here's the thing: adding locking to the freelist stuff is easy. Making it conditional on building with threads is even easier. 16:27:07 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-107.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 16:27:20 pkhuong: perhaps this is the way to go... Not sure how well it will go though, see Bruno Haible's reply to my message here: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.clisp.devel/21214 16:27:39 (making sure it's actually reentrant though, goes much farther than just using a recursive lock) 16:27:56 froydnj: what period are you interested in? I can manually re-run benchmarks, you know (: 16:28:54 ivan4th: anyway, I greatly recommend using mmap() for allocation there. Using anything else is just asking for trouble 16:29:07 ivan4th: I don't know what part of "The behavior of this function is unspecified if the mapping was not established by a call to mmap()." Haible doesn't understand. 16:29:47 ok, I'll remove posix_memalign() too and will just make it use mmap() 16:29:56 thanks 16:30:00 pkhuong: also, the linux manpage example doesn't state stuff outright and requires the reader to *think* 16:30:01 hicx174 [n=hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 16:30:04 antifuchs: 1.0.32 to 1.0.34 would be nice to have, to see if the make-sb-thread-the-default change is causing slowdowns/core size increases, and also to see what causing things like SEARCH-SEQUENCE to regress 16:30:43 froydnj: I'm not sure you'll see any change in results from sb-thread, but search-sequence 16:31:01 ...will show up 16:31:09 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["leaving"] 16:31:25 (reason is that I'm building each revision with manual feature specs) 16:31:26 antifuchs: oh, are all those results built with sb-thread enabled already? 16:31:50 are the ones without sb-thread built with an explicit _removal_ of sb-thread? 16:31:57 ah, wait. 16:32:14 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:32:36 ooh. 16:32:37 right. 16:33:29 Xof: your prediction powers still work. the default sbcl configuration doesn't enable or disable any features. so the change will show up. 16:34:44 pkhuong: btw, 'reentrancy' in the sense of trampoline_r is not real reentrancy but rather thread safety + an ability for trampoline destination to call that trampoline recursively 16:35:39 right, they don't actually mean reentrant. 16:36:30 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 16:38:08 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:38:51 I just attended Didier Verna's talk on the clos vs c++ object instantiation performance 16:38:53 interesting stuff! 16:39:07 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [] 16:39:18 yvdriess: are there any online notes/slides/videos from that? 16:39:35 indeed 16:40:11 yvdriess: who was v-diddy presenting to? 16:40:32 http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/research/publis.php the second down the list 16:40:36 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 16:40:42 our research lab, pascal costanza invited him 16:40:43 yvdriess: who won? 16:40:53 sbcl :) 16:41:09 it was instantiation and instantiation only though 16:41:25 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.166.162.230] has joined #lisp 16:41:52 milanj [n=milan@93.87.117.122] has joined #lisp 16:41:59 I wonder if the 64-bit version does any better though in for example struct instantiation 16:42:04 with floats 16:42:17 thanks 16:42:21 classes were untouched by slot type, structs were though 16:42:33 performance-wise 16:42:38 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.166.162.230] has quit [Client Quit] 16:42:47 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:43:21 froydnj: ok, everything's set up now. I'll rebuild & re-benchmark the versions that were left out starting now; results should trickle in over the next few days. 16:43:37 antifuchs: thanks! 16:43:39 lesson learned: (make-instance 'foo) is A LOT faster than (make-instance ) :) 16:44:09 that is not necessarily true 16:44:36 if an optimized constructor exists, then the system will try to use it even when the class argument is a variable 16:44:37 yvdriess: can C++ do the latter? 16:44:40 yeah, but the latter case is rarely optimized 16:44:44 it'll be slower, but not unbelievably slower 16:44:58 stassats`, of course not :) 16:45:08 yvdriess: I'm telling you that it can be and often is optimized 16:45:33 (I'm afraid that I don't much like these Verna papers, even though they support a conclusion I'd like to draw, because the measurements are too simplistic) 16:46:24 yeah that was most of the critisism here too, although I do follow his argument 16:46:41 The Trouble With The Lisp Community Is: (Answer #42) we're too honest... 16:47:06 too busy being honest to do proper release engineering 16:47:43 being honest is usually a polite way of saying being unpleasant 16:47:58 arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 16:48:12 I thought you were going to say "brutal" 16:48:35 the problem with too-simplistic measurements is that someone else with an agenda is going to come along and say "hah, these measurements are too simplistic, therefore the conclusion is false" 16:48:45 obviously that inference doesn't follow 16:49:06 dlowe: It really depends on the context. 16:49:16 then somebody with an agenda should come along and say "hah, this conclusion is too simplistic, therefore its conclusion is false"? (-: 16:49:44 dlowe: In particular a scientific setting is obviously not a social party. 16:50:46 obviously as in everything you musn't let the perfect be the enemy of measuring something, but you need to be aware of the limitations of what you're measuring 16:50:51 while there are a lot of problems surrounding microbenchmarks, anything bigger will get torpedoed on the grounds that you can't pull any conclusions out of it 16:51:26 heh :-) I wonder if there's a good ressource about doing benchmarks right? 16:51:36 Xof, I thought verna did a good job pointing out the limitations of his approach 16:51:38 or at least not blatantly wrong 16:51:59 tcr: that reminds me a lot of http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=886 where watts argues that science works because the people doing it are jerks (-: 16:52:01 but perhaps it was because some were hitting him with the same arguments you made 16:52:20 tcr, gabriel benchmarks I think 16:52:25 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-yetlxzgkfcgjkitq] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:36 yvdriess: most of those measure gc performance (-: 16:52:51 really? 16:53:07 antifuchs: funny, I'm re-reading one of his books 16:53:32 almost none of the gabriel benchmarks in a modern lisp measures what it measured 20 years ago 16:53:45 see xof's benchmarks paper, I guess (: 16:53:51 there are various comedy cases, including ones that I didn't even believe when I did that analysis 16:54:02 see mostly jsnell's rebuttal of a parenthetical comment I made in that paper 16:54:43 dlowe: neat - which one? 16:55:00 antifuchs: last of the rifter books 16:55:12 "yes, it really does measure generic addition performance" or whatever it was 16:55:32 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:55:35 oh, here's a good quote from jsnell 16:55:38 "The 5% speedup on the COMPILER benchmark that I reported in the commit message was actually caused by some unrelated pretty-printer changes in the same tree" 16:55:51 hahaha 16:56:28 what do we learn from that? keep topic branches (: 16:56:39 git ftw? 16:56:45 isn't that the issue with pretty much any benchmark that is bigger than a microbenchmark 16:57:41 the only conclusion is that this runs p% faster than that one, you can barely say 'look my change did that' 16:57:54 no, look: the COMPILER benchmark was affected by pretty-printer changes 16:58:27 that reminds me that a language we developed here at the lab turned out to be doing regexp 80% of the time, that was a surprise 16:58:40 I'm not saying that those are completely independent subsystems, but for it to be affected that much suggests that pretty-printing was close to the COMPILER bottleneck 16:58:42 yvdriess: haha 16:58:43 Perhaps it would make more sense to classify benchmarks, then run a collection of benchmarks, and do some statistical post-processing? (says the layman) 16:58:46 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:58:49 yvdriess: so you really had two problems (: 16:58:54 oh yeah 16:59:02 tcr: see the benchmark paper that I wrote way back when 16:59:08 for the first ever European Lisp Workshop 16:59:12 It's on your website? 16:59:17 (I stole that joke, but it does crack me up every time) (: 16:59:18 it ran on top of the jvm, so I was trying to make my demo application go faster by porting more and more into java 16:59:23 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 16:59:26 which ended up making everything slower 16:59:31 tcr: not sure. It didn't really get properly published 16:59:41 Xof: On related note: Can you recommend a book about statistics for a computer-scientist? 17:00:00 tcr: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/elsw2004/benchmarks.ps 17:00:09 ah, yes, it is on my website 17:00:12 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:00:30 tcr: do you want to "do statistics" or do you really want to understand? And how fluent are you in calculus? 17:00:52 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:01:01 understanding statistics is seriously hard 17:01:01 -!- benny` is now known as benny 17:01:06 and I'm doing quantum mechanics 17:01:28 tcr: you too will be able to sneer at Frequentists if you study diligently 17:01:30 as Xof says, 'doing' statistics is completely different from 'understanding' 17:01:32 I passed classes on both actually, the problem is I only did the minimum to make me pass. :-) 17:02:01 is there a tutorial on reading sb-sprof output? 17:02:02 ah yes. From that paper, the timeless sentence "it is difficult to imagine CLOS/methodcalls being a benchmark testing boxed numbers intensively" 17:02:11 I guess I'm more interested in a practical point of view. E.g. for drawing conclusions out of available data 17:03:11 if only I had actually looked at the benchmark, I would have discovered that it did: see http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2008-05/msg01104.html 17:03:21 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:03:28 tcr: do you want those conclusions to be valid? :-) 17:03:38 splittist: heh 17:03:54 tcr: isn't there an xkcd comic about that? 17:04:06 about what? 17:04:21 poor ole lispm has his home box on the front page or reddit :-( 17:05:47 fusss: i don't see it 17:06:00 tcr: my all-time You Must Read This Book To Understand Stuff book is Edwin Jaynes, "Probability Theory" 17:06:17 I have a question about the debian language shootout though, I asked the same to Verna: 17:06:21 a close second is D. J. C. MacKay, "Information Theory, Inference and Learning Algorithms" 17:06:23 stassats`: and by reddit I mean /programming/ i forgot others existed 17:06:25 *froydnj* is amused by coding.derkeiler.com's 404 page 17:06:46 the MacKay should be accessible for a computer scientist (but both those books are written by physicists) 17:06:55 the lisp code on there is usually pretty crappy, how come smug lispies haven't sent in better code? 17:07:00 do most not really care? 17:07:13 yvdriess: there's a good rebuttal by jsnell about that, too 17:07:17 Xof: thanks 17:07:17 yvdriess: there was a good jsnell post about it 17:07:22 ah 17:08:17 usenet? 17:08:41 http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/5489247d2f56a848?hl=en 17:08:44 yay to jsnell's high times 17:08:46 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:11 hicx174_ [n=hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 17:09:18 -!- hicx174_ [n=hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:26 yes.. the reply was essentially "it's just a game".. yes, a misleading game (what benchmark isn't?) 17:10:12 so it is a form of 'don't really care' 17:11:50 "I'd rather spend my time sensibly?" 17:12:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 17:12:38 if the benchmarks were closer to project euler, maybe somebody would care (: 17:13:18 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:28 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:16:09 out of interest, is anyone here planning an els2010 submission? 17:17:41 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:54 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:22:38 I'm not sure 17:22:57 would an extra week help? 17:22:58 it's more a case of 'just using CL' 17:23:13 actually, I have what I need now 17:23:34 enough excuse to extend the deadline 17:24:01 TR2N` [i=email@89.180.129.93] has joined #lisp 17:24:09 what is the current deadline? 17:24:13 Friday 17:24:24 haha ok no way I'll make it :) 17:24:58 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-129-93.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:24:58 I'll have something more interesting for lispnics on the next els 17:24:59 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:25:00 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 17:28:09 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:28:28 -!- Xof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ELS2010 deadline extension, CLSQL 4.3.0, ABCL 0.18.1, Hunchentoot 1.1.0, cl-gtk2 0.1.1 17:28:35 tcr: http://xkcd.com/552/ 17:29:26 :-) 17:31:50 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:33:21 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:34 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:39 -!- Reaver1 [n=Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Success] 17:35:19 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-112-195.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:35:55 Reaver1 [n=Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 17:38:32 Xof: I remember fe[nl]ix describing math books written by physicists as "collections of tips and tricks" or something like that. :) 17:39:09 What's a good way to get a timestamp which includes microseconds? 17:40:15 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has left #lisp 17:40:17 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 17:40:22 I must learn not to use that keybinding 17:40:33 C-w? 17:40:34 yes 17:40:54 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 17:41:09 there are "math" calculating books by physicists which are tips and tricks, and there are "math" books by physicists which are about what the maths actually means 17:41:18 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-15-80.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:41:47 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:54 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:44:36 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-22-33.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:45:40 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:46:05 I gather the ones you suggested fall into the latter category. :) 17:46:28 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:47:09 they have some of the first too 17:48:51 tcr: gettimeofday or clock_gettime ? 17:54:30 ddp [n=ddp@207.182.40.20] has joined #lisp 17:55:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:01 -!- Reaver1 [n=Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 17:57:05 -!- ddp [n=ddp@207.182.40.20] has quit [Client Quit] 17:58:19 ddp [n=ddp@207.182.40.20] has joined #lisp 17:58:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 18:01:08 drewc: are you here? 18:01:20 stassats`: T 18:01:41 adeht: thanks, luckily there's sb-ext:get-time-of-day :-) 18:01:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-zshbwcxlyugwnqmh] has joined #lisp 18:02:28 drewc: there's some noticeably lag between anonymous cvs and committers access, more than usual 15 minutes 18:02:40 i'm talking about slime cvs in particular 18:02:44 lispm [n=joswig@88.128.42.18] has joined #lisp 18:03:37 stassats`: yes] 18:04:00 stassats`: by the looks of things, that lag has been a few days! 18:04:39 -!- lispm [n=joswig@88.128.42.18] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:05:34 stassats`: ok, i fixed 18:06:05 stassats`: should be all ready to go in 10 mins or so 18:06:24 what was it? 18:08:44 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:09:34 seems to be fixed already, thanks! 18:11:18 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:18 tcr: i'm going to assume that, when i shut down the other day, the pserver updating script was not properly terminated... it left its pid file hanging around so it wouldn't restart. rm the file, run the script. bob's your uncle. 18:12:18 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-127.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:05 *stassats`* learns about "bob's your uncle" 18:14:03 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:17:30 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-6-197.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:27 nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:18:50 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.72.165] has joined #lisp 18:19:45 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-9-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:19:47 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 18:21:19 stassats`: i usually use "robert's your father's brother" around my family, who are Irish and get the joke. I've tried throwing that one out in conversation on IRC and in real life, and it turns out that "bob's your uncle" is not as well known a saying as i assumed it was... most people just look at me quizzically and move on. 18:22:32 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 18:23:14 *stassats`* isn't even a native english speaker 18:23:14 Good evening! 18:23:49 in the programming world it sounds more like an objectmentor advertisement 18:24:51 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:30 *p_l* just found out that Prolog probably just saved his sorry ass in terms of Formal Logic exam 18:27:36 beach: hello! 18:27:38 -!- ddp [n=ddp@207.182.40.20] has left #lisp 18:27:45 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:28:55 man, multithreading by locks is so disgusting 18:30:07 mathrick: Try hw-level multithreading by interleaving code into different pipes in cpu... I found it a crazy yet strangely interesting concept :D 18:30:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:05 p_l: that doesn't really help me with the problem of offloading HTTP requests to a set of worker threads :) 18:31:07 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-134-252.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:31:07 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.21] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:31:11 hehe 18:31:32 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:31:45 mathrick: there was some nice work queue library, and I recall some future-based ones 18:31:59 oh, that might be useful 18:32:06 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 18:32:22 what I'd really like is erlisp, but I dunno if any of them is finished to an useful extent 18:32:45 mathrick: well, you can always use the lisp-on-erlang thingy (forgot the name) 18:32:56 was it erlisp actually? 18:33:00 LFE 18:33:02 LFE 18:33:04 ? 18:33:04 one of them yes 18:33:04 ah yes 18:33:11 oh, no, LFE is not interesting 18:33:12 Lisp Flavored Erlang 18:33:17 I want CL 18:33:49 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 18:34:02 I'm horribly conservative when it comes to lisp flavours, but I know CL and am comfortable with it and really don't wish to learn a new set of vocabulary and idiosyncrasies 18:37:21 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:30 'morning 18:37:36 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:51 Good morning Fade. 18:38:05 greetings, beach 18:40:15 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:46:29 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@79.102.11.154] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:46:41 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@79.102.11.154] has joined #lisp 18:47:47 afk 18:47:57 (last exam, then time for paperwork!) 18:48:44 xffff [n=fffff@i59F7AAA2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:49:02 -!- mathrick is now known as _mathrick 18:51:18 TR2N` [n=email@89-180-190-22.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 18:51:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:52:06 triyo [n=triyo@dsl-245-154-248.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:52:07 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:34 I'm learning about macros and came across with-gensyms. I'd like to write a macro that expands to another macro that implicitly applies gensym to all args in the macro args list. 18:54:04 And as you might figure, I havent got it working. 18:54:08 triyo: see the LOL book 18:54:16 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:54:27 is it the defmacro/g! :) 18:54:52 macro with g bang 18:55:23 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.129.93] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:55:24 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 18:55:25 yup http://letoverlambda.com/ 18:55:30 not something I recommend. 18:55:37 tried to write my own way but failed, so saw that few minutes ago, a lot more advanced than what I had 18:55:53 see also about macro hygiene, and pcos' paper on that 18:56:08 cool thx 18:56:13 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.33.51] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:56:30 -!- triyo [n=triyo@dsl-245-154-248.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:30 prxq [n=mommer@e176247177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:41 hi 18:59:27 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:43 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.205.150] has joined #lisp 19:01:14 mihk [n=mihk@xdsl-78-35-148-196.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:03 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:56 Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-119-197.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 19:03:04 hey all 19:03:11 got a HW question that idk how to answer 19:03:44 need to implement (neg-p num) using +, - and recursion 19:03:51 and idk where to start @_@ 19:04:13 start with thinking 19:04:35 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:04:56 heheh 19:05:37 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-15-80.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:05:46 by "neg-p" you mean a predicate which returns T if number is negative? 19:06:06 yea 19:06:43 who gave you that HW? 19:06:51 josemanuel [n=josemanu@177.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:06:59 Pilum [n=pilum@78.89-20-249.enivest.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:04 and, does it really read that way? 19:07:30 yeah, because it doesn't make much sense 19:07:39 even as a homework 19:07:59 it's for a programming languages class, and we're defining the function in our own language that only has those functions available, along with a let statement 19:08:12 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@dlink214.imada.sdu.dk] has quit [Success] 19:08:14 however, the syntax is roughly identical to lisp, and i know y'all are smart. 19:08:15 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:08:41 only plus and minus? 19:08:41 i'm trying to get a foothold in the problem so i can figure the rest out by myself. 19:08:43 yea 19:08:43 Shamiq: you need at least if (or cond) and a comparison (<, >, eql, ...) to make this work 19:09:03 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:09:05 ...unless we are missing some incredibly brilliant trick 19:09:11 i would have to make those functions using the above ones i mentioned 19:09:38 ain't possibly for if and cond. can be done for compares if you're using fixnums 19:09:39 but yea, if i can define > using +,-, and let, then i'm set as well. 19:09:45 Shamiq: I would say: incomplete context. 19:09:57 prxq: sorry 19:10:08 Shamiq: I did not mean it that way :-) 19:10:09 do we have an operator that defines functions? 19:10:26 yea, deffun 19:10:43 still, how do you concoct a T with +, -, and recursion? 19:10:58 the same way C does it => 1 or 0 19:11:01 -!- Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:06 Shamiq: does deffun close over it's lexical environment? 19:11:12 yes 19:11:12 its* 19:11:26 (deffun name (args) (fun-body)) 19:12:02 Any reccomended books for someone new to lisp? 19:12:14 minion: tell Pilum about PCL 19:12:15 Pilum: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:12:20 Much obliged. 19:12:24 minion: tell Pilum about gentle 19:12:24 Pilum: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 19:13:42 Shamiq: wait, 0 is false 1 is true? 19:13:53 true 19:13:58 hahaha 19:14:00 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:16 i mostly agree 19:14:40 So the topic of this channel talks about cl-gtk2. Anybody involved in that project around? 19:15:09 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:18:01 It doesn't seem to work at all in non-threaded lisps, despite a bunch of code that seems to be there for that purpose. 19:18:10 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:12 Gigaamd [n=Gigaamd@c-68-60-24-65.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:28 malsyned: I discovered when messing with one of the gtk bindings (clg, I think) that the gtk threading model is more than a little finicky, which may be part of the problem. It also turned out not to be well documented how to work with it in clg, and the same may be the case (I haven't checked) in cl-gtk2. 19:19:33 -!- Gigaamd [n=Gigaamd@c-68-60-24-65.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:20:24 I saw a blog post yesterday or the day before that claimed the cl-gtk bindings worked without threading. 19:20:34 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:08 I think I ran cl-gtk2 a while back without threading...but it was a while ago 19:22:14 nyef, is there a cl gtk binding that you prefer? 19:22:29 (also, why would Ubuntu be shipping a non-threaded clisp? is clisp threading support experimental?) 19:22:36 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296b28.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:23:15 malsyned: extremely so. 19:23:21 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:23:27 Shamiq: is it a lisp-1 or a lisp-2? 19:23:52 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 19:23:58 drewc: idk what that means. 19:24:57 Shamiq: do functions and variables live in the same namespace? 19:25:18 if it's a Lisp1 and you can use integers to name functions and the integers are actually fixnums, you can define a function for each fixnum that returns 0 or 1 19:25:26 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-19-166.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:36 oie, i have to think about that. 19:25:37 then your neg-p would be (deffun neg-p (x) (x)) 19:25:41 TR2N` [i=email@89.180.155.166] has joined #lisp 19:25:52 adeht: if it's a lisp-1, integers must evaluate to integers. 19:26:04 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-85-18.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:26:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:30 pkhuong: :( 19:26:47 -!- arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:27:14 Axius [n=ghi@109.97.62.50] has joined #lisp 19:27:23 Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 19:27:26 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["asdf"] 19:28:14 -!- TR2N [n=email@89-180-190-22.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:28:16 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 19:29:33 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:51 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:33:02 -!- aidalgol_ [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:56 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:35:09 unicode [n=user@95.214.88.204] has joined #lisp 19:35:44 -!- Axius [n=ghi@109.97.62.50] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:38:35 varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:38:37 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-22-82-249-67-68.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:52 aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has joined #lisp 19:39:04 -!- aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:25 HG` [n=HG@xdsler171.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:39 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 19:42:41 adeht: i had a plan involving church numerals and lambda lifting... but without knowing any more about the lisp (a lisp without lambda?) it's just wanking, and i have real work to do :) 19:42:56 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:43:08 http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/lambda-calc-div-neg.txt about negative church numerals 19:43:20 nothing wrong with wanking 19:43:22 drewc: if you have church numerals, why is it specified that you have + and -? 19:43:49 Xach: are you there? 19:43:50 + and - on church numerals? 19:43:52 hey ramus 19:44:07 yea, i think i have a solution for my question 19:44:15 stassats` was right -- i need to think 19:44:23 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-85-18.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:44:27 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:20 Shamiq: you also don't have right shift? then it's REALLY esay 19:45:22 easy 19:45:36 just do the shift 31 times and you're done. Logical and arithmetical both work 19:45:58 -!- Pilum [n=pilum@78.89-20-249.enivest.net] has left #lisp 19:45:59 hah, welcome back to C 19:46:10 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:46:14 Hun: *31* times? 19:46:26 pkhuong: i figure because they are C integers, i can use + and - and recursion to convert an integer to a church numeral and vice verso 19:46:35 is there a maximum number in the language Shamiq? 19:46:38 hrm... 19:46:41 pkhuong: on 32 bit fixnums, yes 19:46:45 no max 19:46:55 if you could access the carry flag, it would be even easier 19:46:57 i'm not sure i thought that part through. 19:47:09 add it to itself, see if carry is set 19:47:12 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-117-39.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:33 *drewc* looks at the flyspell highlighted 'verso' on his screen and turns a little red 19:48:06 Shamiq: this lisp has bignums, but 0 is the false value? 19:48:44 Hun: there is no such thing as a carry flag with arbitrary-size integers. 19:48:52 *drewc* thinks this exercise is nonsensical, Shamiq is not making sense. 19:48:57 ah...can we forget i asked this question? 19:49:09 there's way more background than i can reasonably explain. 19:49:20 "one can probably teach a bird to do that" 19:49:22 I like it 19:49:55 pkhuong: true. i assumed fixnums all the time. 19:50:49 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 19:58:50 c|mell [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:49 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D57B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:19 rpg: hi! 20:02:16 wedgeV [n=wedge@adsl-71-146-92-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:27 gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:44 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:52 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:02 gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:51 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-244-53.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:56 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:10:00 Xach: I was looking over your "Making a Small Common Lisp Project" page, in response to questions at our last meeting. 20:10:16 I see you came down on the "no package" side of the .asd file debate.... 20:11:11 Sure there's no need for it 20:11:39 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.72.165] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:55 tcr: But if you ever want to add a new component type, etc., don't you want a package so you can load and test interactively? 20:12:59 You can qualify symbols explicitly to retain loadability 20:13:18 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:18 Sure if you have a moderately complex .asd file, a -system package may make sense 20:13:27 like named-readtables.asd :) 20:13:31 But that's not the common case 20:14:17 unicode_ [n=user@95.214.78.171] has joined #lisp 20:14:21 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:14:25 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:32 OK, I can buy that. One could err on the side of "you might need it sometime, just stick it in" or "if you need to do this, you'd know enough to put one in." I will stick to the former. 20:16:05 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:31 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.81.161] has joined #lisp 20:18:38 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@177.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:21:14 just like a whale-tail on a honda. 20:21:18 you never know. 20:22:20 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:22:34 *drewc* used to agree with rpg until tcr talking him out of it 20:23:10 hello 20:24:07 mainly because i like to LOAD .asd's ... but package qualifying the DEFSYSTEM takes care of that, and i have to admit my .asd's look nicer without the boilerplate 20:24:35 Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:23 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 20:25:27 I forgot a shortcut in Emacs. When I open the buffer list with C-x C-b how do I get down to that bottom buffer window. 20:25:46 I know it's something with 'o' 20:25:56 C-x o switches throws buffers 20:26:01 though 20:26:06 through 20:26:22 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:40 Oh I thought it was C-o again 20:26:42 thanks 20:28:52 drewc: package qualifying doesn't extend to defining new classes... 20:29:28 rpg: true, but i have never done so TBH. 20:29:55 drewc: I have a few cases where I have files that are preprocessed. 20:30:20 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:30:28 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:30:32 I'm willing to have an extra few package declarations --- especially when they're generated by emacs templates --- so I don't have to think about this. And even more so that my colleagues don't have to... 20:30:34 the one advantage it had was that i used a single package for all my systems, and could reasonable store compile-time configuration values in that package. 20:30:44 -!- Kaviado [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 20:30:59 drewc: right, whereas I'm more concerned about avoiding sharing, instead of seeking it out! 20:31:16 rpg: I just define my new classes in the ASDF package 20:31:50 tcr: Isn't that a recipe for name collisions? Unlikely, perhaps, but.... 20:31:50 I avoid colleagues and extending ASDF 20:32:02 it's win-win 20:32:15 I confess that extending ASDF often has a masochistic feel to it... 20:32:28 rpg: I prepend my system's name in front of it 20:32:36 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.88.204] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:38 asdf::named-readtables-source-file 20:32:43 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-119-197.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:32:53 tcr: Ah, the emacs-lisp solution! ;-) 20:33:15 Well how else would you name that class anyway? :-) 20:33:52 I think the AT&T solution is nrtsf ! 20:35:28 Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-119-197.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 20:36:22 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-185.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:36:37 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-119-197.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has left #lisp 20:38:21 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:39 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:40:31 hey extending asdf isn't so bad. What happened that suddenly people dislike it so much? 20:41:50 It sucks :-( 20:43:03 how so? And why did it not suck three years ago? 20:44:44 tcr: C-c C-c does not write to a temp file on all cl implementations, right? 20:45:38 leo2007: Yes, on some. On some of these, that's actually a bug that it doesn't 20:45:55 prxq: I reported "my" issues at https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bugs 20:46:19 tcr: what about ccl? 20:46:32 leo2007: check swank-compile-string in swank-ccl.lisp 20:47:13 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@c-174-52-81-75.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:27 prxq: I think people want to use asdf than for the simple needs it was created for 20:47:35 +for more things 20:48:07 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:48:18 tcr: thanks. it actually does write to temp file. 20:49:51 prxq: primary authors are not on board anymore, and because of ASDF's widespread use, the requirement for "backwards-compatibility" is very big, and so the new people have, understandably, not the balls to non-trivially change asdf :-) -- my view anyway. 20:50:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:50:19 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:51:14 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:05 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:13 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-22-33.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:53:23 tcr: Part of the problem is that ASDF is not easily extensible --- we haven't yet chosen a discipline that makes it possible to use #+ to make your .asd files tolerate different asdf versions. 20:54:19 Also, current developers don't have much control over what version of ASDF is seen and how much backwards compatibility is needed: that's down to the CL implementation developers/packagers. 20:55:46 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229089066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:23 tcr: I actually disagree with your claim --- I think people want to use ASDF for needs that it claimed to be able do (e.g., define new component and operation types) that actually it does more poorly than one would hope. 20:57:56 -!- snorble [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:26 I just tried to reciprocate an argument that I myself got a few weeks ago, probably failed at doing so 20:59:57 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit ["Server buffer killed"] 21:01:58 The problem is that ASDF is so much better than what we had before that it took over the world before it had a chance to mature and get a few kinks worked out. 21:02:33 I think that's probably right 21:02:36 was there anything sensible before asdf? all the older code I see generally has its own loader files 21:02:47 in the old days we were trying to solve about 5 different problems simultaneously 21:03:20 build systems, distribution, integration of multiple libraries, bug fixes, integration with linux distributions, actually writing MORE CODE 21:03:24 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:03:50 mk:defsystem 21:04:23 I've never seen that in actual use :) 21:04:27 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 21:04:29 I think mk:defsystem didn't have the clever use of *load-truename*, leaving us relying on config files, logical pathnames, etc. 21:05:02 it also had new-append-directories 21:05:26 It was always horrible getting all configured, and cross-library dependencies just didn't work at all. 21:05:36 logical pn's were pretty much the only thing I really disliked of mk. 21:05:44 rpg: no? 21:05:58 that surprises me. Istr they worked just fine 21:06:17 Using mk-defsystem just didn't provide enough value --- everyone I worked with (since the days of the symbolicses) just used big files full of (compile-and-load "xxx") 21:06:21 asdf got a couple of things right: the symlink trick, the output-files thing /mostly/ working (user-configurable output policy) 21:06:45 Krystof: Agreed. Gary's ASDF-binary-locations is testament to getting that right. 21:06:50 prxq: I got gsll working and solved part of the problem. 21:06:57 leo2007: great 21:07:12 it piggy-backed on a couple of things that changed since mk-defsystem (mostly-working pathname handling; mostly-working method combination, though no thanks to CLISP for holding that up for years) 21:07:13 deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has joined #lisp 21:07:18 The Garnet load files are a crawling horror because of trying to manage different sites and different lisps using the same source files. 21:07:34 Krystof: you are right, and I had forgotten about that 21:08:06 snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:08:36 asdf was a great improvement 21:08:52 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 21:09:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:09:18 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 21:09:39 rpg: don't remind me 21:09:42 it got some things very wrong, too: TRAVERSE, which should be a custom method combination but couldn't be because clisp didn't support it at the time; the failure to propagate state through the operations; the lack of wrapping while performing stuff; probably other stuff 21:11:02 Krystof: Right. Every subsequence of a plan that corresponds to an operation on a module should be wrapped in an operation or at least (I think this is the compromise we'll end up with) wrapped in an "open parenthesis" as well as a "close paren". 21:11:23 quite. Obvious now, but not obvious then 21:11:27 and difficult to change now 21:13:02 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229151224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:05 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:34 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-202-85.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:14:13 Sikander [n=Sikander@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:14:19 Hi 21:14:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:24 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:33 Can anyone tell me the use of climi? 21:14:48 What is it? Why do I need it (when writing a backend)? 21:15:01 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75702d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:20 climi is just the clim internals package that more or less everything gets dumped into 21:15:26 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:15:37 Krystof: Yes, I thnk that's why we're going to have to live with an "open parenthesis" instead of full wrapping, which means we still don't get :around methods. :-( 21:16:02 Krystof: So when writing a backend, I can/must make use of climi? Is there some docs about climi somewhere? 21:16:20 Blkt [n=user@host-78-13-246-202.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:18:46 no, you need not make use of anything: you can do whatever you like 21:19:01 climi is just an internals package, containing everything that isn't exported from any other package 21:19:06 I don't know why you think you must do anything 21:19:08 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:19:34 I don't know whether to recommend starting by reading the Null backend; it's not like there's a history of successful perfect new backends based on it 21:19:36 Krystof: Hmm, I was wondering this in regard to "good style" 21:19:40 but it might be the place to start 21:20:02 oh, style can come any time after there's actual functionality 21:20:04 I've been looking at Null, gtkairo and CLX 21:20:16 heheh 21:20:18 Good point 21:21:06 Would I be considered stupid if I say I find writing a backend... non-trivial? 21:21:49 I find conceptually understanding ports, grafts, sheets, media, mirrors ... difficult. 21:21:51 :( 21:21:56 no, not stupid 21:22:05 take lots of notes 21:22:26 ... and document what I did for the next generation, right? :) 21:22:58 If you fall, then people may make soup out of your bones and, invigorated, continue crossing the desert 21:23:02 or some such metaphor 21:23:03 kt21312 [n=kt235@cust-63-209-224-58.bos-dynamic.gis.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:32 Hmmm, I don't like where that is going... for me personally anyway :) 21:23:55 meh, we only progress by stamping on the toes of giants 21:24:13 heh, ok thanks 21:24:24 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:20 my ncurses backend is so close to functional, but the layout is screwed up because I don't understand any of the previously mentioned concepts... 21:25:44 well, _apparently_ I don't understand them 21:26:44 On another note, is there someone lurking here that can help me with a stumpwm problem? Over at #stumpwm, there doesn't seem to be much response 21:27:00 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:27:05 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.137] has joined #lisp 21:27:07 Sikander: What did you need help with? 21:27:41 fractalis: I have some problems with mouse pointer visibility in stumpwm, in those rare cases where I actually need a gui.. 21:28:13 fractalis: any such experiences? E.g. xchat shows no mouse pointer, and even worse, xchat even manages to intercept C-t! 21:28:39 Sikander: Let me check my config real quick, I recall I had issues where I had no mousepointer until after I opened my first window. 21:29:23 fractalis: Thanks. Weird thing is, the mouse pointer is visible over, say, xterm or urxvt, but not in, say, xpdf, or gtk+ applications 21:29:35 -!- nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:51 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:52 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:30:53 erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:31:35 Sikander: That's interesting, I might be having the same problem just never noticed it since I have most things configured for quick access via keyboard, and rarely use many gtk+ apps. I don't see anything in my .xinitrc or .stumpwmrc that suggests setting anything for that. If you don't get the problem solved, I can take a look when I get home. 21:32:38 fractalis: I just noticed, because I switched from awesome to stumpwm a few days ago (awesome had some issues where applications stole the focus) 21:32:57 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 21:33:23 fractalis: And apparently, I used a few applications where I sometimes make use of the mouse. If you could check at a later time, I would be very grateful 21:33:51 nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:35 Will do, I apologize for not being able to do so right now since I'm at work. I have my Slime open connected to my stumpwm instance, but don't see anything in there. 21:34:41 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:44 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:34:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 21:35:09 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 21:36:06 oh, an ncurses backend? That sounds very cool 21:36:26 fractalis: Thanks! Erm, could you maybe memo it to me? I'm sort of in a different time zone, I suspect, and will be going to bed pretty soon :) 21:36:55 Buganini_ [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 21:36:57 Sikander: Sure can 21:37:13 Krystof: I _really_ want that, so I can write CLIM applications that can also work on the console (minus drawing...) 21:37:18 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:26 Is cl-ncurses stable? I was looking at messing around with it at some point in the near future. 21:37:36 let's see. I /think/ a port is a thing that says "this is the connection that you need to be able to draw stuff". A mirror is an object that reflects a GUI-side object; a sheet is a lisp-side thing that you can draw low-level stuff to; a medium is something that you can draw mid-level stuff to; a graft is a joining of a backend-side thing to a lisp object 21:38:07 -!- Blkt [n=user@host-78-13-246-202.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:13 Krystof: Yes, that's my understanding as well. But size/position-wise I'm missing something 21:38:41 fractalis: No idea, I've not used it. I think McCLIM needs an ncurses backend, so I'm ffi-ing only what I need. 21:39:16 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:42 And since everybody here knows and can use McCLIM (of course), it makes more sense to me to have a curses backend than to use a separate gui package like cl-ncurses :) 21:39:53 http://www.lichteblau.com/blubba/font-selector/mcclim/Windowing-system-drawing-functions.html#Windowing-system-drawing-functions 21:40:02 that might be helpful 21:40:20 -!- deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:29 http://www.lichteblau.com/blubba/font-selector/mcclim/Coordinate-systems.html#Coordinate-systems this also 21:41:07 the "native transformation" seems to be what you're talking about 21:41:30 Yeah, thanks. I've been working off the spec, user manual, tutorials and other backends. I'm sure I'll figure it out, since I like pretending to be a smart guy ;) 21:41:45 yes, indeed, native transformation 21:42:32 the problem I have is that code-wise, I THINK I'm properly setting the positions as clim asks them. But they sometimes all lie on top of each other. 21:43:03 Now I don't know if this means that I need to implement a layout pane myself, or that clim does that by itself 21:44:03 So I don't know if I need to implement the gui side of the layout pane, or if clim can figure it out by itself, by just writing to sheets that have the same mirror but with different transformations. 21:44:35 -!- yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:45:20 However, I have to note here that not only am I quite a McCLIM n00b, but also a CL n00b, so the whole thing may be lost on me 21:45:52 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:52 pr_ [n=pr@p579CAD19.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:54 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CAD19.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:19 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:08 Heheh, just noticed that the right-click menu in uzbl (which is a GTK+ popup menu) also has the mouse pointer disappearing in stumpwm... 21:48:43 When is a macro supposed to be visible? Is it guaranteed that in (progn (defmacro foo ...) (defun bar ...)), foo will be expanded in bar? 21:48:45 mm. I think you might want to talk to lichtblau 21:48:50 Does that only hold true at the top level? 21:49:10 Hmmm, would be cool to have xembed in mcclim as well, to embed the uzbl browser component and basically write the surroundings in cl 21:50:14 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 21:51:05 Krystof: yes, I should do that... I do have some other ideas after talking to you, though, so thanks 21:52:06 good luck 21:52:21 I should join #lisp earlier, so that I have some time to ask lichtblau or beach for some assistance. Now, I just have to go to sleep in a few minutes :( 21:52:44 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:53:10 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 21:53:31 Hmmm, yes, I think that's the problem. I'm not explicitly making a graft for the port... I'll give it a try tomorrow 21:54:32 Once the ncurses backend works, it's on to a CL implementation of vi! HAHAHAH! ;) 21:54:34 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.137] has left #lisp 21:55:08 and then, world domination, of course. 21:55:58 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:56:51 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-117-39.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:01 davazp [n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:54 -!- kt21312 [n=kt235@cust-63-209-224-58.bos-dynamic.gis.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:19 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:00:00 fractalis: gzeus over at #stumpwm just helped me regarding the invisible mouse pointer 22:00:05 Sikander: A CL implementation of VI would just be cruel. :p 22:00:08 Oh, what was the issue? 22:00:16 fractalis: xsetroot -cursor_name left_ptr -solid black 22:00:31 fractalis: apparently, stumpwm or X doesn't do that by default (?!) 22:00:41 I had a feeling it might have been an X more than a StumpWM issue, but I wasn't sure the commands off hand. 22:00:50 It has to be in your .xinitrc 22:00:56 fractalis: cruel?! I use vi, but don't have slime! How cool would it be to say that I use vi WITH slime! 22:00:58 Most start-up scripts I believe do that already. 22:01:26 Sikander: Haha, I use both emacs and vim - just seems bitterly ironic is all. 22:01:28 fractalis: weird, I've been using many wm's before, and none needed that. I just added it to my .xinitrc 22:02:39 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:03:31 fractalis: well, it would also be cool to just run climacs on the console 22:03:53 That is true 22:04:27 Hm I somehow created a thread that cannot be killed 22:05:01 tcr: Cannot be killed? Isn't there a "kill all processes" button on your computer ;) 22:05:05 tcr: You should name it Skynet 22:05:09 I guess I have a loop running in an implicit without-interrupts or something like that :-) 22:06:53 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:28 -!- erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:53 Thanks for the help! Goodnight! 22:09:05 -!- Sikander [n=Sikander@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to sleep"] 22:10:53 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e176247177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:11:33 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:12:36 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:13:25 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:13:59 Yay seems like I found another bug in condition-wait wrt. deadlines. :-) Have to think about it tomorrow, I'm way to sleepy now 22:19:33 tcr: You cannot kill that which is already dead. :-) 22:22:38 graft 22:22:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:23:41 oops, not in that window 22:23:47 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:16 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:25:49 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:26:04 Eleanore [i=Eleanore@c-fe2fe555.035-34-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:26:13 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:05 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 22:28:08 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:28:49 mihk_ [n=mihk@xdsl-78-35-150-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:28:54 -!- mihk [n=mihk@xdsl-78-35-148-196.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:41 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsler171.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:28 -!- mihk_ [n=mihk@xdsl-78-35-150-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:56 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-22-82-249-67-68.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:08 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has joined #lisp 22:34:35 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:38:07 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has left #lisp 22:39:10 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:40:31 -!- Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:10 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-170-245.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:22 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:48 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 22:43:08 unicode [n=user@95.214.19.133] has joined #lisp 22:44:23 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:46:16 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 22:47:43 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:48:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:51:00 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has joined #lisp 22:52:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.205.150] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:52:57 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:53:51 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@adsl-71-146-92-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:54:12 aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has joined #lisp 22:54:28 -!- aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:24 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:01 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 22:58:52 -!- snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:43 -!- unicode_ [n=user@95.214.78.171] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:02 -!- Edward is now known as Guest78648 23:00:52 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442389.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:01:24 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:32 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [] 23:01:55 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.19.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:38 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:02:47 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:03:14 i am getting errors while trying to load cl-glut-examples saying it cannot load libglut.so or libglut.so.3, but the files are exactly in the directory it looks. so can there be another cause of sbcl not finding the libglut? 23:03:23 -!- Eleanore [i=Eleanore@c-fe2fe555.035-34-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 23:06:07 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:06:20 gibranian: in what directory ? 23:07:21 in the directory i compiled mesa. 23:07:52 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-107.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 23:07:58 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:20 i changed the library.lisp files to look for the libs in that directory, it worked for others like libGL.so 23:12:02 i didn't install mesa, just compiled it, but the own examples of mesa seems to work, so i thought i'm having problems with cl-opengl side, but i'm not sure 23:13:23 paste the error 23:16:13 -!- felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:18:31 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:35 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:18:55 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:19:25 ok, this time i get a different error, attempt to call an undefined alien function. 23:19:36 i'll paste it 23:20:48 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229089066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:21:21 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-11-179.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:23:54 atannir [n=atannir@pool69-59-255-28.kewr1.s.vonagenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:13 Blkt [n=user@host-78-13-246-202.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 23:24:14 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:24:26 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:01 anyone have any luck using closer-mop with CCL 1.4? 23:27:09 It's failing to load for me. 23:27:18 Fade: paste.lisp.org/+20JI 23:27:22 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:00 sorry, that url may not work, http://paste.lisp.org/display/94014 23:28:01 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-9-116.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:03 fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 23:29:16 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:23 gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 23:31:45 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.76.159] has joined #lisp 23:33:11 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 23:35:04 btw i'm using an old version of mesa (7.0.4) since somehow new version didn't work on xvesa, might it be related? 23:36:21 atannir pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94015 23:36:42 gibranian: well, does it define whatever function CL-GLUT:SET-OPTION calls? 23:37:12 ente [i=bf94446e@unaffiliated/n0nsense] has joined #lisp 23:37:16 hi 23:37:41 gibranian: because, the error is pretty much self describing... something is trying to call a C function that does not exist 23:38:34 minion: tell atannir about gentle 23:38:35 atannir: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 23:39:08 thanks, drewc 23:39:31 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:39:38 *atannir* plods through more documentation 23:39:57 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-sybgfqjullzzxvon] has quit ["2late2skate"] 23:39:58 -!- atannir [n=atannir@pool69-59-255-28.kewr1.s.vonagenetworks.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:40:03 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:56 drewc: then it's probably because of the version since 7.0.4 is 3 years old. 23:40:57 how do I install common-lisp modules? 23:41:32 using clisp, I'm new to it 23:42:20 gonzojive_ [n=red@DNab4222a8.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:42:30 Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has joined #lisp 23:45:13 -!- porcelina_ [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."] 23:45:28 porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:03 ente: modules, as specified in the spec, and practically useless... you want to install systems. And you probably don't want to use clisp. 23:46:12 minion: tell ente about clbuild 23:46:13 ente: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 23:46:19 ceineke_ [n=chris@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 23:46:45 ente: what you really want to do is get binary of sbcl from sbcl.org, install clbuild, and go from there. 23:46:54 minion: tell ente about asdf 23:46:54 ente: have a look at asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 23:47:07 you're going to need to know about asdf eventually too 23:47:13 minion: tell ente about slime 23:47:14 ente: look at slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 23:47:33 slime comes with clbuild, and you're going to want to use it to interact with your lisp. 23:47:58 slime really rocks. Any idea whether slime can work with bigloo? 23:48:32 thanks a lot 23:48:40 I'll have a look at it tomorrow 23:49:40 wedgeV [n=wedge@adsl-69-232-207-244.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:52 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 23:50:04 leo2007: i'm sure it _can_ work, and i'm pretty sure it doesn't. 23:51:04 -!- xffff [n=fffff@i59F7AAA2.versanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:22 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:32 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:14 heh -> zeromq advertises common lisp support out of the box :) 23:54:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:23 anyone here responsbile for that? 23:54:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:48 rares1 [n=rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:04 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:59:28 -!- rares1 [n=rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp