00:00:00 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:06 Sure, it goes to zero. :) 00:01:07 hefner: Is that your way of saying you don't play well with others? 00:01:50 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:07 sellout: only if you assume I'm being 100% serious. 00:03:23 hefner: You didn't use a SarcMark, so what else could I assume? 00:03:41 Sorry. I thought my nick was enough at this point. 00:03:55 heyhey: See "The Mythical Man Month" by Brooks .. required reading IMO 00:04:05 BrianB04_ [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:43 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:05:05 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.192] has joined #lisp 00:06:42 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:43 drewc: I had read somewhere that the critical number was 10... 00:08:20 je [n=jean@adsl-70-231-143-62.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:22 heyhey: well, i'd probably look very critically at anything else your source says ;) 00:08:23 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:08:40 also interesting would be a measure of productivity as a function of the intended number of users of the software. 00:09:31 personal hacks are quick and to the point, local tools can be rough and the users trained and hand held, consumer stuff needs pretty UIs and everything plus the kitchen sink 00:09:32 drewc: I faintly remember that he was a lisper... :) 00:09:59 heyhey: that does not make one credible... c.f. pg 00:10:24 hefner: Brooks covers that as well 00:10:49 ah. I've been meaning to read that book for a decade or so. :) 00:10:50 drewc: yes, but it may hurt the credibility of others >:) 00:11:16 he distinguishes between 'programs' 'programming systems' and 'programming products' 00:11:52 and the multiplier is 3 .. 3x the work from program to system, and 3x that to a product 00:12:32 (according to Brook's experience ... really i'm convinced it's always PI) 00:12:57 isn't the intended number of users of software directly related to the size of the project in terms of lines of code? 00:13:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 00:13:31 no, see /bin/true 00:13:56 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:14:47 oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:10 (and i might argue that usefulness of a product generally inversely relates to the length in terms LOC) 00:15:28 but then i'd have to argue against emacs.... 00:15:39 *drewc* goes back to hacking to avoid an argument he can't win 00:15:40 I don't think /bin/true is intended for a big audience 00:15:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:29 I'm trying to understand tail recursion optimization. I found this paper "Efficient Stack Allocation for Tail-Recursive Languages" by Chris Hanson. Is this a reasonable approach? 00:16:32 well, it sure got one. 00:17:10 je: approach to implementing tail recursive languages, or approach to trying to understand TCO ? 00:17:28 je: The most intuitive explanation I have seen is in the first, or second video lecture of SICP 00:17:29 heyhey: intention or not, it's install base is in the millions 00:17:41 :) 00:17:53 je: LAMBDA: The Ultimate GOTO is the one that clicked for me 00:18:17 -!- timor1 [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:18:22 rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:31 It's the where the authors show the difference between iterative and rekursive processes 00:18:32 which is of course the original source of the material presented in the SICP lecture, which is probably more accessible. 00:19:13 tcr: you mean rekursiv ? 00:19:16 :P 00:20:13 kool aid 00:20:30 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA938.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:32 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA938.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:21:27 -!- BrianB04 [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:21:46 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-153.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:21:54 if you're going to use German, at least throw an umlaut in there once in a while... it's my favourite accent! :) 00:22:08 drewc: the arguments against emacs would be equally valid for vi? 00:22:32 *austinh* thinks heyhey is a question-bot 00:22:57 drewc: I guess you mean that those are programs that intend to do too many things 00:23:40 drewc: Icelandic got the koolest characters kind of rune-like 00:37:35 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:35 00:37:35 -!- names: ccl-logbot thijso ski antoszka dalkvist abugosh xenosoz2 lithper2 tltstc slyrus_ abeaumont alec trittweiler carlocci bdowning DrForr emma Xof _3b__ Xantoz_ gz ve PuffTheMagic nullman j0ni_ [df]_ dsop_ joga_ rvirding kpreid oconnore_ blackened` Ralith je ivan_chernetsky bgs100 BrianB04_ heyhey sepult Blkt gonzojive Adamant quotemstr rajesh fe[nl]ix Jasko pr rdd proq nyef Guthur jleija nitor ramus legumbre myrkraverk seangrove kejsaren marioxcc 00:37:35 -!- names: bipt` jsfb Dodek Beetny koning_r1bot rares anton_v leo2007 slyrus gigamonkey snorble gmdjm1959 mrsolo xan Legooolas Khisanth dejones blast_hardcheese johs stepnem fihi09 potatishandlarn dnm_ anekos Hun benny lichtblau gruseom alexsuraci Orest^bnc rbancroft Wraithan rsynnott cmatei rlonstei1 Yamazaki-kun setheus erg dto Pepe_ luis dym Adrinael kom_ kuwabara2 aking mrSpec pok_ spacebat_ austinh guaqua mornfall yahooooo fmu tensorpudding Phoodus 00:37:35 -!- names: kiuma coyo Tristam cools amnesiac Adlai TR2N bobbysmith007 Modius Fufie grouzen drewc kloeri blandest ikki sykopomp DeusExPikachu blitz_` marcoecc cupe claudia20100125 ryepup1 froydnj wlr reb` djinni` hefner prip G0SUB Sergio` boyscared knobo` Soulman__ Demosthenes delYsid daniel_ addled Madsy saikatc qebab l_a_m NNshag frodef varjagg timchen119 qed ASau ud_ fractalis lpolzer__ cmeow dys araujo lnostdal sellout p8m aidalgol knobo porcelina 00:37:35 -!- names: rahul p_l wgl slather eno Spaghettini nuba Aisling borisc madnificent KatrinaTheLamia jyujin_ Taggnostr foom dostoyev1ky nicktastic Carnegie Helheim dcrawford bfein srcerer rootzlevel kencausey cods djm egn antifuchs felipe cpt_nemo housel foom2 hohum herbieB hoeq z0d koollman whoppix mtd Buganini vsync retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop fgtech CrazyEddy joast sjbach sytse ``Erik spoofy jrockway Intensity Tabmow chii Patzy Terminus 00:37:35 -!- names: bobrown` alexbobp lukjad007 dmiles_afk guaq Axioplase_ peddie Zhivago rapacity rullie danderson weirdo _deepfire pkhuong jsnell zbigniew schme ineiros phadthai rotty lharc krappie scode tic skeptomai|away erk lisppaste c|mell raison pragma_ mle tarbo easyE tomaw AntiSpamMeta Raptelan minion Ri- clog svaksha arbscht Krystof Fade cmm Xach UnwashedMeme Tordek GrayGnome Draggor nowhere_man PissedNumlock tychoish disturbance tvaalen Guest48615 00:37:35 -!- names: REPLeffect mgr wasabi specbot Holcxjo dfox_ ironChicken fnordus hdurer adeht _3b` ianmcorvidae lemoinem beach chillywi1ly mikezor_ Stattrav borism_ mathrick ecraven 00:40:03 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:11 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has quit [Client Quit] 00:45:18 -!- heyhey [i=581a689f@gateway/web/freenode/x-wvyvgzgumzjsthwf] has left #lisp 00:46:43 -!- je [n=jean@adsl-70-231-143-62.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:47:22 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:48:06 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:49:37 Krystof: so do you want to back out that darwin/sb-posix change or just instruct folks to use clean.sh more often? 00:49:47 s/want/want me/ 00:50:02 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:51:04 "Database error: This connection is still processing another query." 00:51:21 anyway to snap postmodern out of this hellen keller mode? 00:51:54 i have cold restarted it several times 00:52:35 fusss: Can you close the connection and open a new one? I had to do that yesterday. 00:53:13 the connections where being consumed via a WITH-CONNECTION wrappage, using pooled-p t 00:53:34 slyrus: clean.sh seems like TRT to me. 00:53:49 i am terminating queries via pgAdmin GUI 00:54:22 pkhuong: i was (mistakenly) under the impression clean.sh was build.sh 00:54:22 fusss: Oh, ok. I just had the single toplevel connection, in my case. 00:54:47 austinh: that's a recipe for deployment errors, IME 00:55:11 specially if you have a knack for wrapping the API as you go 00:56:10 fusss: This is just something that's still very exploratory, at the moment. 00:56:40 np, postmodern is good stuff 00:58:42 fusss: it must be keeping a list of open connections somewhere. If that's not exposed by the API, it should be. 00:59:02 drewc: indeed 00:59:30 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [] 00:59:33 so iterate and give em a nudge... will that work? 01:00:18 oh.. you want to re-use the connection, but it's busy 01:00:20 nm me 01:05:47 -!- Ri- [n=ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 01:09:15 *froydnj* does not understand how nikodemus's truncate changes could have botched truncate 01:14:22 ugh, my holiday awareness suffers from an off by one error 01:15:08 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:46 *fusss* loading postgres with 245.5k records over variable size, via postmodern 01:19:33 s/over/of/ 01:21:44 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:27 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.91] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:32:38 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:35:24 -!- Blkt [n=user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-225-179.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:39:01 -!- jsfb [n=jsfb@96.241.6.67] has left #lisp 01:40:29 jsfb_ [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has joined #lisp 01:44:12 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:47:15 Ri- [n=ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:31 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:47:52 konr [n=user@189.98.71.143] has joined #lisp 01:48:33 partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 01:48:35 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:43 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-60-47.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:50:02 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:50:02 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:30 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:55 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53:26 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-gpzdklnakgdeycea] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:53:57 -!- jsfb_ [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has quit [Client Quit] 01:54:05 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 01:58:10 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:00:12 So, I got around to writing what I could see as being my first useful macro, was wondering if anyone would be willing to critique it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/93914 02:02:17 I'm sure its probably ugly and I'm doing tons of things wrong, but still trying to wrap my head around everything. 02:02:34 <_3b__> what is that unintern for? 02:03:08 fractalis: 2.5 problems: MY-KEYWORD can be interned at macro-expansion time, the UNINTERN is unnecessary 02:03:22 *_3b__* thinks it is worse than unnecessary 02:03:22 To avoid putting tons of garbage in the KEYWORD package, I unintern it so it doesn't stay around. 02:03:40 <_3b__> fractalis: what happens if you use a keyword that something else already uses? 02:04:01 _3b__: I have fun trying to debug why my program isn't working. 02:04:08 That's a good point though 02:05:05 fractalis: you also have already interned the necessary keyword in the list you're trying to search through... 02:05:20 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:05:37 so you could use find-symbol 02:05:39 I figured I was doing a number of things wrong, I was just glad to get it to that point where I can start improving on it to make it correct/clean. 02:06:04 *froydnj* tries to keep intel's opcodes straight 02:08:07 Thanks for the input everyone, its been interesting grasping Lisp after having done most of my development in other languages. 02:09:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:09 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:34 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-16-219.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:13:38 <_3b__> fractalis: actually, looking at it again, does that ecen expand to what you intended it to? 02:15:19 lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:20 <_3b__> if so, it seems you are confused about symbol identity... try running one of those functions it defines twice 02:15:45 Wow, you're quite right. 02:16:06 Thanks, I'm surprised I didn't catch that before posting - that's pretty bad, I apologize. 02:16:25 <_3b__> i could dso_p of se einterning and uninterning at macroexpansion time as just being misguidede... doing that at runtime like that is just broken :) 02:16:51 *_3b__* wonders if i'm missing a few fingers or something today... 02:17:01 hehe was wondering that too 02:17:19 <_3b__> * i could sort of see interning... 02:17:36 ah 02:17:55 lol and underscore and everything 02:18:07 at least you typo with style 02:18:35 <_3b__> i suspect the _ came from nick completion, not sure how it got transposed though 02:18:47 Looks like its back to the drawing board, I think I have 2 or 3 other variations of that macro that I could probably go back to to start over. 02:19:01 Hopefully the intention of the macro makes sense though? 02:19:26 <_3b__> fractalis: to avoid writing a proper struct or class? 02:20:01 Yes, perhaps it is better accomplished via doing that. 02:20:04 Experience in knowing how to make a macro and their role as a tool in solving problems are probably separate things. 02:20:17 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:43 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:46 <_3b__> fractalis: also, the (concatenate ...) part should probably be done at macroexpansion time too, or just build it into the format string since you run format anyway 02:21:00 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:21:02 Well, I suppose a bit of context is in order: I've been using sexp to keep track of my daily tasks as opposed to doing it in XML, which was what I was doing so before. I wanted to find a means of parsing the list that I end up having by the end of the day. 02:21:51 Hence why I just didn't make a class or a struct. 02:22:36 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:36 -!- anton_v [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:29 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:26:14 The opportunities for macros or other tools begin to present themselves when you see some repeated pattern. It may be possible to only have to type id, start and end from a single source. . . . (i.e. define all the "get" functions in bulk) 02:28:19 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-60-47.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:28:23 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:52 -!- fmu [i=root@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 02:30:10 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:41 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 02:37:43 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:42:57 mgst11 [n=mgst11@c-24-60-190-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:49 (eq :a (intern "a" :keyword)) 02:45:09 what sort of expression on the right can make that true? 02:45:13 besides :a, of course 02:45:37 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-33.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:45:39 <_3b__> "A" instead of "a", depending on reader configuration 02:45:44 just looking to convert my 'a symbol into a keyword :a 02:46:04 oh wow, that does it. thanks a ton. 02:46:11 <_3b__> or use SYMBOL-NAME if you have a symbol already 02:46:12 man worked on that for 0.5 hours 02:50:15 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:51:31 So to convert a symbol to a keyword, (intern (symbol-name s) :keyword). The intermediate string seems a waste, is there a better way? 02:51:54 Not that it ultimately matters, though. 02:52:18 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 02:53:14 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:30 mgst11: ¿keyword? 02:53:35 there is no keywords is CL man 02:53:43 where did you readed such thing? 02:54:12 I'm calling symbols in the keyword package keywords. Bad terminology? 02:54:25 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.71.143] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:54:34 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 02:54:36 Siebel seems to use it. 02:54:55 you mean symbols in a package? 02:55:12 for put a symbol in a package, you can ethier write that symbol 02:55:16 or use (intern "NAME") 02:55:17 mgst11: it's likely that the symbol's pname is stored as part of the symbol, so it's not like you're consing up a new string every time. in other words, (eq (symbol-name 'car) (symbol-name 'car)) will probably be true. 02:55:32 there's a package called keywords. Anything that looks like :foo goes into it. 02:55:43 oh, that, that 02:56:57 you can 02:57:05 (in-package "keywords") 02:57:13 (intern "SYMBOL") 02:57:17 no 02:57:21 will be 02:57:24 (cl:intern "SYMBOL") 02:57:29 then back to your original package 02:57:40 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:57:40 (in-package "CL-USER") (example) 02:58:18 isn't (intern "SYMBOL" :keyword) equivalent? (and shorter) 02:59:12 rme: yep, that evaluates to t. thanks. 03:01:42 i don't know if it is equivalent 03:01:47 read the cltl or hyperspec 03:02:01 sorry, i haven't too much experience (3 months maybe) 03:03:15 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:45 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-71-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:56 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-71-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:05:46 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:06:50 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@79.102.7.234] has quit [Client Quit] 03:12:03 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:03 mgst11: "keyword" is the correct term; I have no idea what marioxcc is talking about. 03:14:11 marioxcc: what you are suggesting is ugly; if you wanted to do it that way, you should do (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) (intern "SYMBOL")) 03:14:33 but there's no reason to do that when intern has that optional second argument. 03:14:59 I ignored that second argument 03:14:59 sorry 03:16:09 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:17:26 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:14 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Client Quit] 03:18:42 (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "myapp-executable" :executable t :purify t) 03:18:46 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 03:19:00 is this the right way to "compile" something to an executable under sbcl/slime? 03:19:11 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 03:21:02 yates: IDK, use slime 03:21:26 http://www.cliki.net/SLIME 03:22:39 ok, thanks marioxcc 03:22:40 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 03:22:58 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 03:23:15 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/25046/lisp-executable 03:23:38 hicx174_ [n=hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 03:23:56 -!- oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:12 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:31:19 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-rxudqunctylnvqgx] has joined #lisp 03:31:23 morning 03:31:32 morning 03:31:53 morning, splittist 03:32:35 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:33:07 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72e9d2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:35 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 03:35:50 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:36:01 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:33 jroes [n=jroes@74.207.225.154] has joined #lisp 03:37:45 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-rxudqunctylnvqgx] has quit ["Page closed"] 03:37:45 anyone know where I can find a copy of PCL in pdf format? 03:38:00 (I want to read on my iphone through a pdf reader) 03:38:46 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:40:08 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 03:40:27 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-osbnpzbueosrbqwl] has joined #lisp 03:45:05 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:20 (mapcar #l(* 2 !1) '(3 4 5)) => (6 8 10) 03:45:31 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:45:37 I wonder how many "special surprise" reader macros are in sbcl 03:46:29 I happened to stumble on it while implementing the same thing, for practice. 03:46:39 ericklc [n=ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 03:47:00 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:47:15 Seems that stuff like this shouldn't be on by default. 03:48:43 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f736bbc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 03:50:09 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:50:24 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:53:32 No dispatch function for #L in my vanilla sbcl 03:56:57 Hm, t only happens inside SLIME. 03:57:00 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:06 I wonder who the culprit is. 03:58:37 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:00:26 Not slime, anyway. 04:05:06 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:06:02 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has left #lisp 04:06:06 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:06:07 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 04:06:09 DWarrior [n=axfv@c-71-63-157-143.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:17 yo 04:06:21 who the fuck is this guy: http://mnvl.org/quad/pix/ 04:07:57 hollywood look-alike 04:08:58 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:39 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@79.102.11.154] has joined #lisp 04:11:53 -!- DWarrior [n=axfv@c-71-63-157-143.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:15:11 DWarrior: looks like McCarthy 04:15:31 jroes: You can get it (free) from Apress. 04:15:48 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:16:07 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:17:34 gigamonkey: the "Free eBook Download" link is blank here http://www.apress.com/book/view/9781590592397 04:18:37 Good morning! 04:19:11 mgst11: google will (probably) find what it used to link to (which is [probably] still on the site) 04:19:17 morning beach! 04:30:25 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:33:25 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:37:50 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-242-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:25 Argh 04:52:36 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 04:53:22 mgst11: Hmmm. Weird. Well, you could email them and ask, if Google doesn't turn it up. 04:53:57 -!- lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-193-255.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:00 I'm not actually crazy about them giving away the PDF but if it helps jroes read PCL on his iPhone, that seems like a good use for it. 05:01:51 larry65 [n=larry@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:07:47 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:08:46 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 05:10:58 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-244-53.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 05:15:07 TR2N` [i=email@89.180.233.165] has joined #lisp 05:16:24 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:16:45 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:05 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-208-232.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:18:19 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 05:21:35 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has joined #lisp 05:21:43 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-71-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:02 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-71-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:22:22 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]"] 05:28:29 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:29:28 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:31:10 vng [n=user@123.20.67.6] has joined #lisp 05:31:43 Good afternoon #lisp 05:31:59 good morning 05:32:21 hello stassats 05:33:15 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:41:21 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 05:42:18 evening 05:54:26 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:55:15 -!- joga_ is now known as joga 05:55:18 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:07:26 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-47-210.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:14 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.192] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:14:54 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:25 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:18:22 maus [n=maus@222.253.96.120] has joined #lisp 06:18:50 Good afternoon! 06:33:09 BrianB04__ [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:15 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:36:48 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:36:51 luanma [n=user@220.172.222.29] has joined #lisp 06:41:54 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:17 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has quit ["so long.."] 06:51:51 -!- BrianB04_ [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:37 -!- luanma [n=user@220.172.222.29] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:52:48 luanma [n=user@220.172.222.29] has joined #lisp 06:55:37 Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:32 -!- larry65 [n=larry@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:12:47 -!- rme [rme@clozure-51821EF0.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 07:12:47 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:14:33 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:14:59 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 07:20:10 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:21:24 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 07:24:16 -!- dsop_ is now known as dsop 07:24:49 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:27:24 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:30:22 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:32:03 nostoi [n=nostoi@87.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:46 ASau` [n=user@77.246.231.142] has joined #lisp 07:39:35 Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:40:54 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:41:02 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:45:35 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@87.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:50:02 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 07:53:28 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 07:54:48 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.15.175] has joined #lisp 07:56:16 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:56:57 c|mell [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:04 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:00:16 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:26 -!- Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:50 good morning 08:03:14 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75463e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:27 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-27-82-248-17-174.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:51 crod [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:04:01 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-45-82-65-138-171.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:22 -!- dys` is now known as dys 08:05:21 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [No route to host] 08:07:06 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:11:02 plage [n=user@laptop-147-210-129-138.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:11:13 Good morning! 08:13:25 Is there any way to find out *what* foreign function a foreign backtrace entry is on SBCL? 08:13:30 these pointers are not very helpful. 08:17:28 -!- BrianB04__ [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:17:37 hello plage 08:17:49 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:18:00 Ralith: I've used atos on OSX for that sort of thing; don't remember the linux counterpart. 08:19:20 Is there a canonical way to define a function dynamically, or am I stuck with eval? (eval `(defun ,f (x y) (+ x y))) 08:19:34 suppose that appears inside a loop 08:20:18 mgst11: what are you talking about? 08:20:45 also, defun can be run at any time, but if you're defun'ing at runtime you should reexamine your design. 08:21:52 Ralith: the atos command-line tool will translate addresses to symbols, given a binary 08:21:56 mgst: There's also (compile `(defun ...)) and (compile `(lambda ...)) which might be more intent-appropriate 08:22:31 actually, I've only used compile lambda; no clue if it would work for defun 08:22:42 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:22:49 mgst11: handy. Doesn't appear to exist on linux, though. 08:22:53 at least, not obviously. 08:22:58 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 08:23:02 Well just take the example I gave -- I want two functions with exactly the same definition but with different names. (compile `(defun...)) is appropriate? 08:23:20 mgst11: are you sure you don't want a macro? 08:23:42 (let ((lambda ...)) (setf (symbol-function 'a) lambda) (setf (symbol-function 'b) lambda)) 08:23:43 macro won't work -- it appears inside a loop 08:23:56 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:24:46 Phoodus: aah yes, much more reasonable. thanks. 08:24:56 Phoodus: there's no (compile `(defun )) 08:25:06 stassats: yeah, I realized that 08:26:05 Ralith: attach gdb, use line *0xaddress 08:27:01 tcr: sweet, thanks 08:27:16 Phoodus: redefinition wouldn't work on this 08:27:22 Ralith: I'm not sure what address is printed in the printed representation of foreign frames, I think you need the address of the intruction pointer 08:27:40 Ralith: Study swank-cmucl.lisp; foreign-frame-source-location 08:30:44 I don't suppose there's any hope of SLIME someday automating this? 08:31:46 it's an sbcl thing; last I asked what would be needed, jsnell said a dwarf2 parser 08:32:04 so write a dwarf2 parser and we can talk :-) 08:32:05 tcr: er, do what with the address? I'm afraid I've only minimal gdb experience. 08:32:09 heh, 'kay 08:34:38 so... what do I do with gdb? 08:34:58 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:59 mgst11: why are you defining new functions at runtime? 08:35:51 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:37:48 Ralith info line *0xaddress 08:39:13 ah 08:39:17 ty 08:40:06 "No line number information available ..." 08:40:07 oh well. 08:40:19 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e194-120.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:42:16 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 08:43:52 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:27 what foreign library is it? 08:44:47 perhaps you should recompile it with debug information, or install its -dev/-debug package 08:44:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:17 opengl 08:47:23 so, not likely, I don't think. 08:47:30 that'd be the driver's .so, right? 08:47:46 it seems like SBCL is skipping backtrace levels 08:48:05 I call a function that calls cl-opengl functions that call foreign functions 08:48:12 (with one or two additional levels of indirection) 08:48:22 and SBCL goes straight from the first call to the foreign functions. 08:48:27 can't even find out what cl-opengl call it was. 08:50:43 is that just tail calling? 08:53:30 debug 3? 08:53:32 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:53:48 stassats: yep 08:53:51 Phoodus: no. 08:54:01 inlining? 08:54:04 stassats: nope. 08:54:12 I haven't touched cl-opengl 08:54:16 I guess it might be inlining 08:54:24 but SBCL should still be able to give me the location of the call :/ 08:54:33 (declare (optimize (eat-stack 0))) 08:54:53 Phoodus: no. 08:55:15 the last call in the function isn't even foreign. 08:57:21 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:57:59 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 08:58:47 -!- daniel_ is now known as danie 08:58:48 -!- danie is now known as daniel 09:08:48 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-33-139.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 09:10:51 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:11:16 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 09:13:56 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:14:21 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229080164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:15:47 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:17:14 -!- luanma [n=user@220.172.222.29] has left #lisp 09:26:55 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-71-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:49 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:15 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:32:24 -!- mgst11 [n=mgst11@c-24-60-190-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:33:21 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:33:31 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:33:49 -!- plage [n=user@laptop-147-210-129-138.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:34:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:35:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:35:42 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 09:40:15 nyef_ [n=nyef@pool-64-222-146-224.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:21 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-255-135-245.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:39 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.34] has joined #lisp 09:43:53 xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 09:50:34 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 09:51:03 longkid [n=lisp@118.68.240.244] has joined #lisp 09:51:50 beach: are you there? 09:54:02 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:54:17 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.34] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:56:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@ag-d77.rhi.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:59:54 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 10:08:18 tcr, scrolling in a slime buffer with slime head became very slow and emacs is blinking as if it was busy refreshing the screen... any ideas what that might be? (there's no inferior lisp connected) 10:09:38 attila_lendvai: M-x elp-instrument-package RET slime RET 10:09:38 hrm, weird... now it's fast again 10:10:06 and elp-results after some actions 10:10:56 *attila_lendvai* makes notes, thanks! 10:14:57 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:18:30 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:38 what is the difference between (loop for x in array...) and (loop for x across array...)? 10:20:38 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-119-168.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:21:59 in the first case it's "array" is a list, while in the second it's a vector 10:23:40 somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 10:25:15 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:27:37 stassats: what is the difference between a list and a vector? 10:27:55 stassats: I think that they are the same 10:28:03 you're thinking wrong 10:28:19 longkid: then why do we need two names ? :) 10:28:25 list is a linked list, vector is a one-dimensional array 10:28:31 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:28:51 stassats: I see 10:29:39 so, we use 'in' for accessing a list, and 'across' for a vector 10:29:48 that's right 10:31:14 Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-138-238.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:33:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:56 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.22] has joined #lisp 10:39:49 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-119-168.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:41:16 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:41:32 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:43:37 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:44:44 -!- hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-jnrafnblykvqbtmy] has quit [Client Quit] 10:49:47 austinh_ [n=austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:28 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:50:32 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 10:50:39 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 10:54:35 -!- ericklc [n=ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:22 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:56:07 ericklc [n=ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 10:56:49 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 10:57:22 -!- austinh [n=austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:00:21 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:24 -!- longkid [n=lisp@118.68.240.244] has left #lisp 11:00:29 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:01 lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 11:04:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:12:01 epiko [n=epiko@softbank219174119031.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:22 -!- epiko [n=epiko@softbank219174119031.bbtec.net] has left #lisp 11:14:26 -!- xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:21:53 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.67.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:23:23 Ferrari_308_GTS [n=algidus@88-149-209-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 11:24:54 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:25:51 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.15.175] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:26:18 lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 11:27:12 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-225-87.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:27:55 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@ag-d77.rhi.hi.is] has quit [] 11:28:05 I'm looking for a good downloadable database of IP address information. one just to tell me that e.g. 209.107.213.48 belongs to Akamai in the USA 11:29:46 this looks ideal http://www.ip2location.com/ip-country-isp.aspx but just asking before I pony up $199. twitter is probably the best place 11:30:55 lukego: I wouldn't pay for that kind of database 11:31:00 http://remote.12dt.com/ ? 11:31:06 on the other hand I will only do a few hundred lookups so an online interface would be fine too 11:31:28 if you just want provider information, whois interface should be enough 11:32:06 If you can do online lookup, look at the geoip interface. 11:32:07 try the GeoLite Country database to see if the free one is good enough for you, and most importantly write a pure lisp parser for their database, and pushlish that code! 11:32:12 well e.g. the example IP address I gave, which is probably one of the highest trafficed ones on the planet, has no reverse dns entry 11:32:21 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:32:52 Odin- [n=sbkhh@logd136.rhi.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:32:53 lukego: no dns involved with whois. http://pastebin.com/m10b44339 11:32:57 http://www.maxmind.com/download/geoip/database/ 11:33:05 lichtblau: I don't want to be too Geo though. I'm more intersted in akamai/limelight/google/etc (i.e. name of provider) than geolocation 11:33:36 hm oh unix 'whois' actually worked for 209.107.213.33 11:33:42 sure. 11:33:54 looks like I am in error :) 11:34:38 informations like those are in the various ip registry (arin, ripe, apnic... ). And they all have a whois interface to query the info. (not always up to date, but the DB you could get aren't either, usually) 11:34:50 geoip organization then, altough that says bandcon rather than akamai 11:35:24 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:24 the only problem with whois info will be lack of structure 11:36:30 -!- crod [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:36:44 but for a few hundred lookups, you should get away with a simple parser 11:37:13 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 11:37:15 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 11:39:18 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@logd136.rhi.hi.is] has quit [] 11:39:36 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-109-60.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:41:01 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Client Quit] 11:41:27 -!- borism_ [n=boris@213-35-234-36-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:42:41 lukego: #lisp now expects trivial-cl-whoare from you... 11:43:19 lukego is a language whoare, he doesn't limit himself to cl 11:43:20 just don't read that name out loud 11:43:48 (1- tone) 11:44:22 -!- Ferrari_308_GTS [n=algidus@88-149-209-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:46:33 rpg: So glad to hear it wasn't an empty meeting 11:46:38 Ferrari_308_GTS [n=algidus@88-149-209-132.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 11:49:32 lisp is actually quite a good language 11:49:45 xan [n=xan@95.175.116.61] has joined #lisp 11:49:58 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:53:17 -!- Ferrari_308_GTS [n=algidus@88-149-209-132.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:53:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 11:54:17 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:54:21 hello 11:56:50 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [Client Quit] 11:58:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:58:50 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e194-120.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:59:34 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 12:00:12 *Xach* is fond of it 12:02:29 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:04:02 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 12:05:47 Risky_ [n=Risky@p4016-ipad24osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:07:55 -!- Risky_ [n=Risky@p4016-ipad24osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 12:09:17 crod [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:40 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 12:12:16 howdy felix :) 12:12:18 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit ["Quitting"] 12:12:35 cadabra [n=cadabra@c-174-52-81-75.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:38 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:15:24 -!- 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jwr7 [n=jwr@bk-gw.rychter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:37:14 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:44:45 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-244-53.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:17 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 12:46:09 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:53:04 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:53:25 attila_lendvai: Since I updated to Ubuntu 9.10 Emacs redisplay is very very slow 12:54:28 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:36 tcr, oh... on that road we can quickly get to graphics driver bugs, not unlike on windows... :) thanks, i'll keep that in mind when it happens next time 12:55:38 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:56:00 attila_lendvai: If you have stuff with large output, look at *dedicated-output-socket* 12:57:56 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:57:58 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:58:31 thanks! for the record, it's swank:*use-dedicated-output-stream* 12:59:41 *lukego* searches for whois parser, ponders average code quality of perl v python v ruby 13:01:57 *lukego* tries Python first. strike #1 :) 13:02:09 paolo [n=chatzill@93-34-174-29.ip50.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:02:38 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 13:04:26 benny` [n=benny@i577A19C0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:34 hi, can i have a little help with an ooa project? thx 13:08:55 you're welcome 13:09:31 hi, thanks, can i ask here or in private? 13:09:45 you already asked twice 13:09:55 lisppaste, url? 13:09:55 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 13:10:58 wait i need to paste, just a minute 13:12:24 paolo, paste on lisppaste, that way there'll be syntax highlighting and the paste will be announced automatically 13:12:29 paolo pasted "ooa project" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93924 13:12:59 slime is unhappy when I accidentally try to return an object whose printed representation is 54MB to the repl :) 13:13:24 emacs doesn't scale well 13:13:33 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:13:44 done 13:14:01 and what's your question? 13:14:03 but miraculously `M-x slime-disconnect' and `M-x slime-connect' gets me all hooked up to the same lisp again 13:14:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:14:42 tis a miracle, one must feel, that such heavenly software is real. 13:14:47 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8A86.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:58 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-119-168.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:15:04 lukego, then take a look at your thread list... :) 13:15:34 attila_lendvai: actually looks okay. my lucky day? :) 13:15:39 sometimes i have 3 set of slime threads, 2 of them dead 13:15:51 seems so 13:16:24 on this subject, why is it that sometimes when sbcl crashes or is killed, starting up slime again creates a new repl window and sometimes reuses the old one? 13:16:26 Odin- [n=sbkhh@ag-d77.rhi.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:16:28 i have a problem with subclasses, they don't inherit the attributes of the upper class 13:17:33 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:17:47 paolo, that code is very convoluted and odd style. you'll need to find someone also still learning lisp and interested enough to look into it for the sake of learning 13:17:58 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-44-98.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:18:42 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:18 paolo: is there a reason you're making your own OO system and not using CLOS? just for practice/exploration? 13:19:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:19:43 what's the simplest persistence method? like, load/save value of *foo* without too much fuss over filenames or figuring out how to print hashtables 13:19:49 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:56 uhm ok, thx but i wanted only know where it's better to act for my problem: in defun-class or in new 13:20:22 maybe if you explained your invented architecture 13:20:37 lukego: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-store/ ? 13:20:54 i don't use clos cause it's a project for my studies 13:20:57 lukego: alist+structures? 13:21:48 bookmarking cl-store 13:22:12 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:23 lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:23:29 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:24:49 lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:24:56 -!- benny` is now known as benny 13:25:30 lukego, hu.dwim.serializer is more serious on customizability and speed, but don't use it yet for things you want to migrate through different revisions 13:25:48 Phoodus: i know why that happens, do you need to know the details? 13:26:12 attila_lendvai: basically I just have some ad-hoc data (hash tables, lists, etc) stored in specials and I'm thinking "wouldn't it be a bummer if sbcl quit and lost those values" 13:26:12 sure 13:26:43 My random guess is that it has something to do with queued requests to a lisp instance that's already dead 13:26:55 lukego: Prin1 the variable (see alexandria:hash-table-alist) into a file 13:26:57 ok bugger perl/python/ruby, cl-ppcre it is 13:27:02 ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-9-126.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:27:32 tcr: yep that's what I've done :) I was just imagining a hyper-simple interface like (save *foo) (load *foo*) so that I would use it more often 13:27:35 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:02 it's a lot of characters for (with-open-file (s "/Users/lukegorrie/mybackup" :direction :output) (prin1 ... s)) 13:28:19 but okay I am being incredibly lazy not just writing that function myself :) 13:28:38 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-33.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:44 well, it's not as easy as you'd have to support hashtables 13:28:51 and then structures compatibly etc etc 13:29:29 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.69] has joined #lisp 13:29:31 structures print readably. 13:29:59 except when they have a hash table as one of their slot values 13:30:04 lukego: clbuild install cl-store; then (require :cl-store); then C-c I (find-package :cl-store) (the inspector has a nice show-me-content-of-package feature) 13:30:33 lukego: load/save? how about file/(setf file)? 13:30:41 lukego: on the inspector page, click on "exported symbols", then click on "group by classification" 13:30:57 Phoodus: one scenario: your current connection is named "sbcl<2>" and there is no "sbcl", you kill <2> and the newly created is "sbcl" 13:31:49 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:32:10 hmm, I just had that happen when I was working with <3>, killed everything, then the new one came up as <3> again 13:32:37 (killed everything = slime-quit-lisp, C-x C-b, killed all buffers slime-related) 13:32:43 oh cool to see inspector for packages :) I'm always using `C-c C-d p' 13:34:05 Phoodus: there's ,sayoonara 13:34:43 C-x C-b lists not all buffers 13:34:45 lukego: Yeah that's nice too 13:35:06 true, but it listed all the repl buffers, inferior-lisps, etc 13:35:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:35:56 lukego: There seem to be a bug though, RET does not work correctly on macros 13:40:14 Xach: Thanks! It was a big relief -- I was over-discouraged by the people I talked to, who all bailed. Turned out to be a sampling problem! 13:40:29 rpg: What are the prospects for a February meeting? 13:40:58 Xach: Very good --- Mikel Evins will talk to us remotely (iChat) about CCL and Cocoa. 13:41:03 nice! 13:41:08 is there a date picked yet? 13:41:19 *Xach* is eager to fill February's calendar with meetings 13:41:52 Xach: That's a bit of a challenge! February is short and two of the Mondays are knocked out by three day weekends. 13:42:43 p0a [n=user@athedsl-376918.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:42:50 Wait.... We don't really get Washington's birthday, do we? It got eaten by Presidents' Day, I think.... 13:43:40 *tcr* is positively surprised seeing sb-ext:call-with-timer; thanks whoever did that! 13:44:13 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:46:52 tfb_ [n=tfb@212.183.140.39] has joined #lisp 13:47:19 tcr: Is that very new? I have call-with-timing but not call-with-timer. 13:47:38 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.22] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:47:39 sorry I meant call-with-timing 13:47:43 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 13:50:57 Xach, http://www.meetup.com/parentheses/calendar/12366383/ 13:51:03 hungary, budapest 13:51:36 attila_lendvai: Cool! I will subscribe to the calendar feed 13:53:19 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:55:07 Seven scheduled meetings in February, with at least two more pretty likely. 13:56:38 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-44-98.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:26 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-16-219.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 13:58:35 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:58:47 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-9-126.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:59:37 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@c-174-52-81-75.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:00:06 Blkt [n=user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-225-179.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:00:23 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.96.120] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:01:17 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:32 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:24 fmu [i=root@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 14:06:48 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:05 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.58.226] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:07:11 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:29 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:11:18 plage [n=user@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has joined #lisp 14:11:23 Good afternoon! 14:11:38 SBCL runs on a Mac these days right? 14:11:50 right 14:11:54 plage: afaik yes, but I think CCL still fares better 14:12:06 p_l: In what way. 14:12:25 threading 14:12:31 I see. 14:13:25 and integration (CCL has many special features to interface with OSX things, like frameworks and stuff) 14:14:38 or bundling core+runtime+necessary resources into application 14:15:13 SBCL seems to run on the mac basically the same as it runs on linux 14:17:00 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:17:02 lukego: did you get the backtraces working? 14:17:26 Xach: no. it's only rare that I get that non-backtrace (twice a week, say), so it's not a biggie. 14:17:35 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 14:19:44 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:22:13 Hmm, I get it a lot. 14:22:29 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 14:23:20 damnit I knew that sooner or later I would be tempted to use threads for something :) 14:24:53 don't give in 14:24:58 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.58.226] has joined #lisp 14:25:09 you'll suffer :-) 14:25:33 Yeah, just switch to a language with decent concurrency. 14:27:41 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-187-146.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 14:28:42 as far as I know, that's erlang and anic 14:29:02 I have high hopes for anic 14:30:35 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.58.226] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:57 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:22 ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-9-126.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:33:43 dlowe: do you think a CL implementation could embrace that ANIC philosophy? 14:34:02 sellout: ha ha ha :) 14:34:16 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:19 sellout: how is life? 14:34:30 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 14:34:48 anic even, I see it is uncapitalised 14:35:42 lukego: Life is good. Not much Lisping, but been making up for it by adding more skiing. 14:36:00 When you turn hard, your skis look like parens. 14:36:34 lukego: How are you dealing with having a residence? 14:37:03 sellout: characteristically - by being on the other side of the world from it. (malaysia. it's cold in switzerland :) 14:38:03 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 14:38:10 Guthur: you meant ANI. anic is compiler ;-) 14:38:32 p_l then I did mean ANIC 14:38:45 the compiler is where the magic is 14:39:02 Guthur: the magic can't work without language support, as far as I can see 14:39:05 if I am reading it correct 14:39:11 Guthur: no, the language design is where it's at. 14:39:15 -!- plage [n=user@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:46 Guthur: as for your question... I think it's possible to get similar results, however the code wouldn't be exactly portable CL 14:40:30 (i.e. you might do it through extending the language with libraries + possibly special impl. support) 14:40:34 lukego: Hah! Eat some mee goreng for me. Love that stuff. 14:40:40 But I'm just starting reading about ANI 14:40:52 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 14:40:52 I'll try to pry myself away from the Nasi Lemak for long enough to do so :) 14:41:35 you guys definitely know how to motivate others to work 14:41:48 well, think about work at least 14:42:57 p_l, ya I suppose so 14:42:58 look what you made me do: i'm now wave my work goodbye and go eat something tasty ang go home. 14:43:07 Guthur: I guess some parallelism could be applied to pure CL but it might be ineffective without extra declarations (i.e. a case of "sufficiently smart compiler needed") 14:43:12 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 14:43:13 ANI, just looks awful 14:43:13 hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-sqxbmkztftpzibzg] has joined #lisp 14:43:32 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:25 I was looking at low-level variant of that for CL, where the compiler, basing on hi-level information about source, generated multiple parallel streams, but thats for EPIC architectures, not for separate threads 14:44:26 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Success] 14:44:50 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 14:45:19 TDT [n=user@dhcpw80ff96dc.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:45:50 p_l: ya thats the sort of thing I was thinking of 14:46:33 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@ag-d77.rhi.hi.is] has quit [] 14:46:54 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:05 rrice1 [n=rrice@76.244.145.54] has joined #lisp 14:47:08 Morning everyone 14:47:20 g'morning :) 14:47:32 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:47:39 good morning 14:47:49 -!- partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:58 -!- rrice1 [n=rrice@76.244.145.54] has quit [Client Quit] 14:48:05 'afternoon 14:48:07 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:56 What's the future like p_l? Its still only going on 10 here. :p 14:50:09 the future is european 14:50:37 if you have to write your program with explicit pipes/lattices/etc, it seems like you may as well just go with an explicit approach like erlang or Go's. 14:51:42 fractalis: the future is a formal logic exam in 28 hours 14:52:18 sykopomp I was though p_l meant more like hints for the compiler 14:52:21 possibly coupled with getting some sharp tools and using them on my feet 14:52:31 but I see he never said that so I must be imagining things 14:52:43 Guthur: ENOPARSE 14:53:05 though/thinking 14:53:13 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.26.41] has joined #lisp 14:53:21 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:41 Guthur: I did meant a certain style of writing code (which is already represented in Lisp, though I think more so in Scheme than in CL), coupled with extra logic in implementation and hints for compiler 14:55:22 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:55:32 thats what I thought you meant, hehe 14:55:40 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:56:13 Guthur: read on xappings, streams etc. 14:56:18 hey i want to print an alist, each element essentially like "~a: ~:d", but I want column-wise alignment (i.e. the ~a is variable length but I want the ~:d to line up). help a guy out? 14:57:11 actually, I had forgotten how readable the hyperspec is 14:57:23 maybe I don't have to curse when I've forgotten something that isn't covered in PCL :) 14:58:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:59:53 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:22 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:01:40 fda314925 [n=fda31492@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 15:07:14 Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8db4e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:08:44 -!- hicx174_ [n=hicx174@211.214.227.235] has left #lisp 15:09:13 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:44 DeusExPikachu_ [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-46-147.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:01 does "producing a tree of closures that implement the semantics of the expression" apply to clojure as well? (ref http://xach.livejournal.com/131456.html) 15:13:14 wrong forum, sorry 15:13:25 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:13:40 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:03 DeusExPikachu_: sure. 15:14:55 DeusExPikachu_: sure. or perl. 15:14:56 -!- DeusExPikachu_ [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-46-147.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:15:17 heh. I just recently wrote a "closure tree" compiler myself 15:16:41 I wished for standard named lambdas while I was trying to debug it, but otherwise it was a pleasant solution 15:16:50 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:17:03 Guthur: btw, have a list of libs to look for inspiration regarding parallelism: series, xappings (Connection Machine Lisp), PCall, Eager Future, ChanL/CSP/Calispel and way more :D 15:17:53 dlowe: (defmacro named-lambda (name args &body body) `(flet ((,name ,args ,@body)) #',name))? 15:18:28 btw. I'd have thought that sb-int:named-lambda establishes an implicit block, but it doesn't :-/ 15:18:41 pkhuong: hm. that's an idea. does it show up properly in backtraces on sbcl? 15:18:46 dlowe: yes. 15:18:49 I use that technique and can recommend it without reservation, though of course it gets you names (FLET FOO) in sbcl 15:19:00 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:10 that's hawt. I'll have to do that. 15:19:36 it's in alexandria, too, though I guess that one actually uses labels, so you can use it for "anonymous" recursive functions 15:20:10 p_l: cheers, I will but on that mountain of stuff I should read, hehe 15:20:14 but/put 15:20:16 seems like it could have been in the standard as an optional symbol after LAMBDA 15:20:22 lukego: as for printing in columns, I "cheated" simply by iterating twice. First, to (format nil ...) of terms and finding the max length; the second pass actually printed it out with those field lengths 15:20:37 I'm using ~16t 15:20:40 it actually wasn't much code, but obviously not hyper-fast :) 15:20:59 The ARM is proofing to be a major distraction, hehe 15:21:04 I want CL though 15:21:07 944846 lines in *slime-repl*. who said Emacs doesn't scale? :) 15:21:31 hover with your mouse over a big presentation 15:21:49 Guthur: at least you got your ARM. I ended up not getting mine -_-; 15:22:02 and inserting new output takes longer too the bigger the buffer iirc 15:22:58 tcr: re slow redisplay, check whether your X is accelerated, some *drm* kernel module may be missing and that makes X very-very unhappy. X server output should tell you what is missing 15:23:24 p_l: should pick one up, my board was £17, included a serial link cable as well 15:23:35 cmm: in the log files you mean? 15:23:36 if you up you budget you can get a nice USB dev board 15:24:05 cmm: that said, yes, I remember that I refused drm kernel modules for my nvidia 15:24:18 Guthur: yeah, but I wanted something I could put to practical usage right away, like a phone ;-) 15:24:34 tcr: nvidia's official drivers don't use DRM, or at least didn't use it 15:25:03 p_l: hehe, I thought you might have meant your phone 15:25:36 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:25:44 Guthur: I was refused on basis of credit check - by the time they might get around to reassesing it positively, I might as well save enough money to buy myself an unlocked Nexus One ;-) 15:25:51 p_l: well whatever the details, I selected open source drivers 15:26:14 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:26:15 DRM as in digital rights management? 15:26:24 tcr: well, then you selected slowness unless you used noveau 15:26:32 Guthur: Direct Rendering Manager 15:26:37 ah ok 15:27:01 that makes a whole lot more sense 15:27:21 knobo [n=bohmersp@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 15:27:22 tcr: cause the "open" driver is kinda donated by nvidia, iirc, and its whole purpose is "make it somehow work, but don't expect anything more than 2D framebuffer" 15:27:39 Can I use change-class inn :around methods? 15:27:39 (unaccelerated framebuffer, even) 15:27:55 Guthur: which kit? (at the risk of being off-topic) 15:28:31 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:28:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:28:52 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-4-185.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:28:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 15:29:11 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:29:11 NXP LPC2103, just a simple one to wet my feet, it is a little OT, but I would love CL for the embedded stuff, would need a lot more memory though 15:29:19 knobo: "programmer must not use change-class inside a method if any methods for that generic function access any slots, or the results are undefined." 15:30:02 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:30:04 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:30:07 Guthur: I might try getting ECL onto S60, though 15:30:39 p_l: ECL can output C for cross compiling, correct? 15:30:55 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:59 like (defmethod foo :around ((o c)) (change-class o 'new-c) (call-next-method) (change-class o 'c)) 15:31:00 Guthur: yep 15:31:23 having CL interactively on the device is not even a top priority for me, I just would rather code in CL than C 15:31:26 stassats: it does not access any slots 15:32:26 Guthur: well, after exams I'm planning to get some work on both lisp packaging for beach, and on a certain weird project of mine called "BASTARD", which addresses generation of code, including something around C-level that doesn't need runtime 15:32:29 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:34:03 p_l: sounds interesting. I would love to implement CL in ARM assembler or Thumb, but it would be too time consuming and a little beyond me. 15:34:31 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:36 ejs [n=eugen@6-83-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:09 Guthur: well, my project simply is about having an assembler+simple language embedded inside CL, to generate executable code. It might be used to implement CL, but the language itself is not CL 15:35:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:35:53 p_l: after summer exams? 15:36:01 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:03 Guthur: no, after the *now* exams ;-) 15:36:13 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 15:36:26 ah ok, our new semester start yesterday 15:37:04 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:04 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:06 mine starts 1st Feb. 15:37:07 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-9-126.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:10 lukego: even simpler persistence is to just compile the data to a fasl 15:37:11 I think I am going to work the ARM into my Uni work, hehe 15:37:16 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:28 jsnell: cheatsheet? remember I'm from the internet generation :) 15:37:30 so I now have CL and ARM as uni projects, which is great 15:38:08 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:38:15 if your data is in *data*, compile a file containing (defparameter *data* '#.*data*) 15:38:36 jsnell: haha 15:39:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 15:40:45 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:17 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:35 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:29 hah! 23:45 and now that backtrace issue starts to get between me and being done for the day :) 15:45:46 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:26 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:52:23 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 15:52:29 how would I go about doing something like (push obj place), where place was determined at run-time (for example via a typecase). I could probably write a push-like macro to do this, but is there a better way(which does not involve having to write (push obj ...) for each typecase clause)? 15:52:38 Hmm, for slime - is there a good way of resetting all variables defined, such as those with (defvar) without restarting inferior lisp? 15:52:57 ljames, maybe you want locatives? 15:53:03 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:53:31 there's a portable version at http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.sources.code/17 15:53:46 thanks, I'll go read that 15:54:26 you could then encapsulate the various places you might want to push to in a locative, and just (push object (contents place-locative)) 15:55:53 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 15:56:17 xb 15:56:20 oops 15:56:20 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:44 cools, need an extra hand there? C-x b isn't that hard... 15:57:37 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:58:00 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:21 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:50 (who said Emacs scales? it's actually pegging the CPU just printing in the repl :) time to cleanup.. 15:59:47 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:05 milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.183] has joined #lisp 16:00:27 tfb_ [n=tfb@212.183.140.39] has joined #lisp 16:00:31 wishlist item: could C-c M-o (slime clear repl output) also clear any output buffers that we've not yet managed to print yet? 16:00:43 its scaling oscillates 16:00:50 so the REPL is printing uncontrollably and not responding to C-c C-c. what happens if I kill -INT sbcl? 16:01:14 lukego: see for yourself! 16:01:46 the wrong thread gotit :) 16:01:51 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.39] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:02:00 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 16:02:32 this is what I get for not using the out-of-band swank dedicated output stream 16:04:55 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-4-185.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:05:15 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:05:18 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:06:38 locatives seem to have been what I wanted, just tried them out and they did the trick! cool use of setf machinery ;) 16:06:50 slime-disconnect / slime-connect to the rescue 16:09:14 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:09 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.26.41] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:11:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:14:30 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-376918.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 16:14:56 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:13 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-244-53.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 16:16:45 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:16:57 kiuma_ [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:18:27 pkhuong: I was considering putting in the %UNARY-{TRUNCATE,ROUND} stack bogosity fix for 1.0.35. wdyt? 16:18:52 vng [n=user@123.20.97.178] has joined #lisp 16:19:02 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 16:21:15 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:22:43 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:22:53 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:23:08 emma_ [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:23:09 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 16:23:55 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.233.165] has left #lisp 16:24:00 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:53 Is merge-pathnames allowed to be destructive? 16:26:04 easyE: The first sentence suggests it isn't. 16:26:23 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:26:33 Ok. Thanks for the confirmation. 16:28:08 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:37 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:34 froydnj: definitely. 16:29:48 wanna do %unary-round too? 16:30:59 -!- kiuma_ [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:31:21 it's all in one macrolet, so I think %unary-round comes for free. unless you were talking about your derive-type fix? 16:32:09 also, the %{single,double}-float/signed vops just above those have the same problem =/ 16:32:10 right, the latter. 16:32:15 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:32:21 really? Blargh. 16:32:35 simple fix, at least 16:32:38 hello 16:32:59 sure, I can do the %unary-round fix too 16:33:37 is there a way to map values in alist to local variables ? 16:33:45 *a list 16:33:50 clhs progv 16:33:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 16:33:52 kiuma: progv 16:33:56 thanks 16:34:00 not quite local variables then. 16:34:21 local special variables 16:34:35 I'm parsing a csv file and I want do generate an sql version 16:35:47 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:36:32 kiuma: I'm fairly certain you're going to have to use a macro to create a let body 16:36:55 I think too 16:37:09 i think you are doing it wrong 16:37:11 or have a rigid list of values that get extracted 16:37:26 -!- Madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:37:40 Is there some way to tell whether a string corresponds to a logical pathname host? 16:37:58 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:38:02 Iwanted something like a let for this assignment (var1 var2 var2) ("1" "2" "3") 16:38:38 rpg: ssssssort of 16:38:39 you don't need this to "generate an sql version" 16:38:43 kiuma: are var1/var2/var3 always going to be those exact 3 variables? 16:38:45 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-1163.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:38:58 (variable names, that is) 16:39:02 Xach: (ignore-errors (logical-pathname-translations "putative-host")) ? 16:39:24 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-4-185.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:39:31 rpg: Yeah. or (make-pathname :host host) 16:40:04 kiuma: I'm wondering what your body that uses those variables is like. is it static? 16:40:12 Phoodus, the second list is extraced fro a csv and for each line contains the same number of elements 16:40:15 if so, then you really do have a fixed list of variables 16:40:36 Phoodus, yes fixed in size 16:40:50 pkhuong: why do we need EA-FOR-{DF,SF}-STACK? what's wrong with just using the TN? 16:40:55 I didn't want do call (nth) each time 16:40:59 Xach: my way seems slightly less awful... 16:41:04 (destructuring-bind (var1 var2 var3) list (body that uses var1/var2/var3....)) 16:41:17 Xach: But I really dislike IGNORE-ERRORS and try to avoid it. Oh, well. 16:41:21 Phoodus, ahhh yes I remember now thank you 16:41:25 where list evaluates to ("1" "2" "3") or whatever, order-dependent 16:41:45 yes yes I remember 16:41:47 rpg: hmm, how do you measure the relative awfulness? 16:41:50 thank you 16:42:40 Xach: How do I unpack the #P"" I get back from your solution to know that it's a bad host name? I wonder if this is another area where the ANSI spec is too loose? 16:42:47 froydnj: looks like copy-paste damage. 16:43:04 rpg: Oh, looks like a bad assumption on my part. sbcl complains about the host not being a defined logical pathname host. 16:43:05 Xach: On ACL your snippet returns a pathname, but it's not a good one. 16:43:21 Xach: Does SBCL return nil from my snippet? 16:43:33 hm, I think nyef did this to insulate things from possible frame layout changes? 16:43:51 rpg: Yes. 16:44:22 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:44:25 I just checked myself, which I should have done instead of asking you.... 16:45:13 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fngtcodsrtwhhsys] has joined #lisp 16:45:22 any gsll users here? 16:45:29 Thanks, though. Sounds like I've got my logical-host-p... 16:45:39 Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:45:41 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:30 rpg: I've been a bit disappointed by how hostile Allegro CL is to portable logical pathnames. 16:46:51 rpg: It goes beyond "this will make life easy for our customers" to "Standards? I spit on your standards." 16:46:55 or something close to that. 16:48:25 Xach: I guess I feel that the ANSI version which I get from SBCL is useless enough that I welcome their spitting on the standards. 16:48:39 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 16:48:56 Xach: I just avoid them altogether in code that I want to be portable. 16:48:58 I don't think they're useless at all, but their behavior doesn't accomodate both views very easily. 16:49:07 sorry, second "their" is Franz. 16:49:22 or first "their" 16:49:43 I know what you mean. I guess I just drank the Franz kool-aid too deeply. 16:50:19 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:32 I wish there was some "Gray pathnames" protocol that would allow people to provide alternatives... 16:50:39 Aha 16:50:47 allegro has a #L read macro. 16:51:13 Xach: Must dash out for an hour or so.... 16:57:36 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:47 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 17:03:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:03:40 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:04:07 antifuchs: here? 17:04:44 cmm: thanks for that pointer; I'm using the proprietary nvidia stuff now and I don't see glitches anymore 17:04:45 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:06:54 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:07:52 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:19 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:08:26 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:08:30 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [] 17:08:36 nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:09:49 -!- emma_ [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:54 lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 17:11:58 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:22 -!- Reaver1 [n=Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:29 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 17:16:29 tfb_ [n=tfb@212.183.140.18] has joined #lisp 17:16:51 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.39] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:17:08 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.192] has joined #lisp 17:17:22 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 17:18:59 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:19:19 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:16 Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-8-114.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:23:04 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:55 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:26:03 borism [n=boris@237.80.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:26:16 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:24 felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 17:27:24 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:44 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:34 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:30:26 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.18] has quit [] 17:34:02 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:25 -!- TDT [n=user@dhcpw80ff96dc.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:05 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:21 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-187-146.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Client Quit] 17:44:50 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 17:45:12 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 17:45:18 Kruppe [n=user@134.117.254.249] has joined #lisp 17:45:45 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-47-210.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:07 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-37-100.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:46:48 jsfb_ [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has joined #lisp 17:48:02 -!- jsfb_ [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:10 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a95-95-190-253.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:48:43 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:48:44 aputtu [n=aputsiaq@88.83.2.114] has joined #lisp 17:48:50 -!- aputtu [n=aputsiaq@88.83.2.114] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:03 aputtu [n=aputsiaq@88.83.2.114] has joined #lisp 17:49:53 -!- borism [n=boris@237.80.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:50:06 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:56 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 17:52:29 jsfb [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has joined #lisp 17:54:04 using sbcl when I compile a file with the following: (require 'cl-utilities) (in-package #:cl-utilities) I get an error saying cl-utilities does not exist, but when I run each line individually I get no errors. Can anyone tell me what's going on there or point metowards documentation? 17:54:47 Kruppe: wrap your require in an EVAL-WHEN 17:54:49 Kruppe: require does not have a compile-time side effect. 17:55:04 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:07 but in-package does 17:55:14 luis: ah ok, ill take a look at that 17:55:25 Kruppe: or use ASDF 17:55:29 Xach: so its never evaluated during compile time? 17:56:07 Kruppe: right. 17:56:11 luis: oh, i was under the impression that require did something with asdf 17:56:31 prxq [n=mommer@f051106009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:56:49 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:56:52 Kruppe: right, but you could load your own project using ASDF and make it depend on cl-utilities 17:56:58 hi 17:58:32 luis: oh i see, what your talking about there is making my project into a package with an .asd file? is that it? 17:59:01 Cheery [n=cheery@a91-156-181-154.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 17:59:22 Kruppe: it's pretty easy! 18:00:23 Xach: probably, I haven't found real clear documentation on how it all fits together though 18:00:27 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.97.178] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:00:36 minion, tell kruppe about xach-asdf 18:00:36 kruppe: direct your attention towards xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 18:00:42 i hope that helps 18:01:28 Xach: thanks! 18:02:10 does some common lisp implementations translate into closures and continuations on machine code level? 18:02:35 -!- Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-8-114.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:47 Cheery: yes 18:03:47 -!- snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 18:03:56 Xach: it works :O, finally! 18:04:41 -!- ejs [n=eugen@6-83-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:04:44 minion: memo for rpg: Ideally, an introduction section in ASDF's manual (or the FAQ section?) would explain what currently http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html serves for 18:04:44 Remembered. I'll tell rpg when he/she/it next speaks. 18:05:46 I still don't know how to use other packages or if you even can using sbcl --script though. Is there a way? 18:06:34 Kruppe: could you rephrase your question? What do you mean with "packages"? Real CL packages? (do you know the difference b/w CL packages, and systems?) 18:06:37 I'm in middle of writing a compiler for a lisp-dialect, but I have some trouble with what do I translate lisp into. 18:06:45 Kruppe: And how do packages relate to sbcl --script? 18:07:29 tcr: hmm, i could be meaning systems. I'm still trying to figure out how cl handles libraries and everything. 18:08:00 tcr: I'm thinking something like import "whatever" in python 18:08:21 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:09:10 snorble [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:09:15 Kruppe: I suggest to read Xach's article first, then ask specific question that remain open 18:09:28 tcr: alright 18:10:29 Cheery: You know "The Essence of Compiling with Continuations", and ANF? 18:10:31 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:11:37 tcr: ANF not heard about. 18:12:06 and I'm not sure about that paper, I've read lots of summaries but not sure whether I've found the actual paper. 18:12:27 -!- felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:12:57 http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/flanagan-essence.html 18:14:04 a nice little paper. 18:14:38 Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a95-95-190-253.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:14:38 I've read a retrospective about this paper, but didn't found the actual paper ever. :) 18:15:11 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72e9d2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:15 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.192] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:09 xffff [n=mike@88.130.220.118] has joined #lisp 18:16:21 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:16:56 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:58 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:17:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:17 tcr: okay. why you tell me about ANF? why is it important for me? 18:21:50 it's an excellent intermediate form for compiling lisp-family languages 18:22:21 it's very widespread todays? 18:22:39 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75463e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:23:34 Probably not "very widespread" 18:23:42 But a good choice nonetheless 18:24:47 fairly, in FPL compilers. ANF, CPS and SSA are "equivalent" (in that there are formalised ways to transform between passes in SSA/CPS/ANF), and some people are arguing that CPS leads to more efficient algorithms than ANF because normalisation is simpler. 18:25:44 well, I read the paper and try out how fast it can be implemented and applied. 18:25:50 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a95-95-190-253.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:35 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:32:41 Is there a good package (purely CL based) for solving system of nonlinear equations? 18:33:02 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:33:09 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-225-87.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:34:36 *splittist* learns a new swear-word: Frequentist 18:36:03 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:36:41 PatXi-2 seems to be one. 18:37:37 -!- Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a95-95-190-253.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:56 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:29 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:35 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:47:13 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:21 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:49:53 tcr pasted "SBCL bug test case; please run and report back" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93945 18:49:58 TDT [n=user@dhcpw80ff96dc.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 18:50:19 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:26 Could you please run that and report whether you get T or NIL? 18:50:41 tcr: T 18:51:01 T here also 18:51:18 Are you on a multicore? 18:51:25 HT 18:51:53 NIL on 1.0.23.12 18:52:03 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:34 dto1 [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:51 I am on multicore 18:52:58 Core 2 duo 18:53:21 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-138-238.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:53:28 T on multicore, SBCL/amd64 1.0.34 from Arch64 repo, C2D T5550 18:53:49 gah. That ANF form -text pretty much doesn't tell me anything about things I really wonder about. 18:53:57 -!- quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:54:38 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:38 -!- quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:47 stassats: Thanks for that historical bit; the code in question was introduced with 1.0.26.5 18:55:10 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:27 *stassats* keeps old sbcl to build new sbcls 18:56:40 Thanks, seems like I did manage to get a test case :-) 18:57:23 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:44 I wonder about the execution strategy the compiled code uses. 18:57:59 Say I have a machine code produced from function call. 18:58:37 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:59:04 Obvious is that if the produced code isn't using the stack, the function call includes an activation frame with program pointer to recover into. 18:59:21 but how do I pass the function arguments? 18:59:54 Cheery: stick them into registers? 19:00:53 that way I could pass only argc + 5 arguments 19:01:09 well.. it's a choice. 19:02:22 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 19:02:29 *Phoodus* 's latest code change conses 10x as much memory (according to #'time), but runs about 20% faster 19:02:56 weird, because all that memory allocation is not memoization or precalc tables 19:03:38 Cheery: use an architecture with more than a few variables :p Or pass an argc and argv in registers 19:04:17 Phoodus: that shows how difficult it is to understand performance 19:04:18 -!- crod [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:04:23 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:04:28 well it's quite obvious to throw argc and argv in registers. but there is yet this question. 19:04:39 prxq: yep. It wasn't a performance update, but a feature refactoring. Still an interesting fallout 19:04:53 i remember from somewhere that most functions have no more than 3 parameters 19:05:02 or somewhat near that number 19:05:10 Phoodus: what implementation is your code running on? 19:05:19 sbcl 32bit windows 19:05:47 (fn (b (c d))) say I compile this.. (I write a paste.) 19:05:54 Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:06:04 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:06:07 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:08:09 -!- nyef_ is now known as nyef 19:08:17 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 19:08:18 Hello all. 19:08:39 hi nyef 19:08:48 how was boston? 19:09:07 Fun. 19:09:09 tcr: T on a dualcore amd processor. 19:09:19 hi nyef 19:09:22 -!- jsfb [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:09:28 err. well, that compilation doesn't bring up the trouble I have. 19:09:46 gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:46 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:50 tompa_ [n=thomas@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:03 jsfb [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has joined #lisp 19:10:42 So, what's this about calling conventions? 19:10:56 And what's this about SBCL on win32? 19:11:27 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:11:38 -!- jsfb [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has quit [Client Quit] 19:11:57 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-14-179.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 19:12:15 tcr: NIL, SBCL-1.0.11 amd64 on an athlon64 dual-core of some stripe, using the SBCL binary from sourceforge. 19:12:21 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:12:41 nyef: yes the offending code was introduced in 1.0.26.5 19:12:42 nyef: that binary would be single-threaded... 19:13:17 Cheery pasted "function call compilation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93946 19:13:27 jsfb [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has joined #lisp 19:14:30 Fade annotated #93945 "tcr test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93945#1 19:14:32 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:03 pkhuong: Oddly enough, though, it apparently isn't. 19:15:49 There has been a couple accidents in the past, true. 19:16:54 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:16:56 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:12 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.192] has joined #lisp 19:17:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.192] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:24 c|mell [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:02 any idea why the func in http://www.phys.uu.nl/DU/num_recipes/lisp.1ed/senac/nr04.l is defined using defvar? 19:18:15 -!- tompa_ is now known as tompa 19:18:29 the 'trapzd' function 19:18:36 leo2007: someone not very good at CL wrote it 19:18:54 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:18:57 Either that, or someone really likes funcall and/or lisp-1-ness. 19:19:04 hmm 1.0.26.5 subtly changed semantics of condition-wait 19:19:18 -!- tompa [n=thomas@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:19:23 leo2007: it looks like a straightforward fortran translation. There's too many pointless side-effects for it to be native lisip 19:19:25 tompa [n=tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:25 leo2007: if it were passed around, and never called by name, I could understand it. But it's just odd usage 19:19:37 before 1.0.26.5, the deadline handler was called without the mutex being locked, after 1.0.26.5 it's called with the mutex locked again 19:19:37 Eek. It uses the "program feature". 19:19:48 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:20:22 Cheery annotated #93946 "If I'd pass through registers.." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93946#1 19:20:56 doesn't look too bad actually. 19:21:22 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:21:26 but it is visible that the mid-results easily end up into the memory (closure's frame) 19:22:56 -!- jsfb [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:22:58 Cheery: What are you working on? 19:23:03 a compiler 19:23:05 dlowe and Phoodus: thanks. I am struggling with finding a good cl lib for numerical computing :( 19:23:42 leo2007, I believe it's called "python" 19:23:49 leo2007: what are you looking for? 19:24:21 I need to solve a system of nonlinear differential equations only 3 dimensional. 19:24:47 leo2007: why does it have to be written in CL? 19:24:50 leo2007: so you want a newton type of thing 19:24:58 Adlai: I think so too. 19:25:10 Hrm... Not quite the silent freeze period that we like, but with only two commits thus far (and only one touching code) it's been fairly quiet... 19:25:42 prxq: something like that. 19:25:44 tcr: ok after reading that guide and fiddling around I made this (with an associated .asd file) http://paste.lisp.org/display/93947 which works when I use a require in the repl. When I run it with sbcl --script I just get package cl-utilities does not exist I kind of expected that I guess. How can I use the functions provided in cl-utilities with just sbcl --script? 19:26:07 leo2007: maxima doesn't suit your needs? 19:26:15 nyef: thing is, I'd like to figure out what structures I could use on machine code to provide efficient function calls. 19:26:20 Kruppe: you'll have to (require 'asdf) and (require 'cl-utilities). 19:26:32 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-4-185.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:33 Cheery: In what context? 19:26:41 pkhuong: I don't know which is the best solution. GSL provides example c code and it is quite trivial to adapt to my problem. I like to program it in cl if possible. 19:26:41 C uses stack, but that isn't fitting for continuation based implementation. 19:26:45 Xach: I'll give it a shot 19:26:56 leo2007: for solving linear systems there are some very simple packages (cf sapaclisp) that work out of the box. Not very fast, though. 19:27:27 nyef: lisp-dialect  x86 native code 19:27:50 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:17 continuations and closures being most important details that affect how function calls look like. 19:28:28 stassats: it probably will but I am not familiar with maxima. 19:28:59 and you dismissed it on these grounds? 19:29:29 stassats: not really. I have 5.19.2 and 5.20.1 installed actually. I have studied how to do numerical computing on it yet. 19:29:38 have not* 19:29:54 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:30:40 -!- Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:47 prxq: It seems sapaclisp does not have much for nonlinear systems. 19:31:18 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:49 leo2007: what is your use case? Solve once, happy ever after? Solve a 1000 times a second? 19:31:55 Is there a way to make nongiant executables with sbcl? 19:32:04 Kruppe: compress it. 19:32:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:31 Why is there nothing like LAMBDA for a macro? 19:32:53 quotemstr: How do you mean? 19:32:53 because it doesn't make sense? 19:33:02 I don't understand the question. 19:33:03 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:33:23 because macros don't happen at runtime 19:33:37 A macro can be seen as a function that doesn't evaluate its argument directly, but that instead returns a form which is then evaluated. 19:33:45 So why cant' we create an anonymous non-evaluating function? 19:33:47 Pitman defines a META macro 19:34:10 using eval or macroexpand lets you have macros at runtime 19:34:18 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 19:34:55 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:00 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:35:22 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-osbnpzbueosrbqwl] has quit ["bye bye"] 19:35:29 plus, think about it. What would a non-evaluating function get for its parameters at runtime that it wouldn't get at compile time? 19:35:30 quotemstr, (defmacro anonymous-macro (arglist &body body) `(lambda (form env) (destructuring-bind ,arglist (cdr form) ,@body))) is a very rough approximation of what that would literally be, but I think you didn't phrase your question right. 19:35:35 since it's just the literals from the call syntax 19:35:38 gwynddyllyd [n=yghorker@201.29.218.151] has joined #lisp 19:35:42 there's also macrolet -- maybe you want that? 19:35:44 quotemstr: http://groups.google.co.il/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4da9387c1b81573e?hl=en 19:36:02 Si there a good book anyone recommends for learning various search algorithms, in CL if possible, or just a really good algorithm book? 19:36:07 prxq: I am building a model that relies on about 5 coupled equations. 19:36:09 macrolet is close, but thanks. 19:36:14 *is there, I mean. 19:36:34 TDT, I hear that Knuth is good 19:36:53 TDT: You mean like AI search or "Sorting and Searching" like in Knuth? 19:36:54 rpg, memo from tcr: Ideally, an introduction section in ASDF's manual (or the FAQ section?) would explain what currently http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html serves for 19:37:19 I consider for fexprs instead of macros, but it may turn out they will be harder to implement on a compiling language. 19:37:25 rpg: Well, the searching we're going over is in AI - but anything that includes both if possible. 19:37:53 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:38:02 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:23 TDT: Norvig's book has a pretty good treatment of AI search --- you'd need to read journals for more exotic variants, but he hits the basics. 19:38:25 Can anyone help me with this http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/gsll-devel/2010q1/000407.html? 19:38:29 I found "Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach" to have a good treatment of the various AI searches 19:38:32 heh 19:38:38 By the knuth books, are you talking about "The Art of Computer Programming? 19:38:46 is there a structure that'd conveniently simulate stack? I figure I could use cons list but that's not necessarily all good or is it? 19:38:51 TDT, yeah 19:39:02 Cheery: a stack? 19:39:08 rpg: Yeah, going through that book now..although fairly early in the book at the moment. I hope to jump into something good with algorithms right after PAIP 19:39:14 A vector with a fill-pointer? 19:39:18 Note that the treatment in Norvig's book is not always the most efficient.... Typically you need to manage your stack more carefully than he does. 19:39:23 What's wrong with using a stack to implement a stack? 19:39:25 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:39:33 -!- gwynddyllyd [n=yghorker@201.29.218.151] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:50 leo2007: have you tried the grid-restrained nelder mead? 19:40:11 TDT: You caught me on the way out the door --- off to the cafe to meet a colleague. Back on in a while and will try to give more info if it's helpful. 19:40:26 rpg: k thanks. 19:40:43 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 19:42:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 19:45:36 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:06 felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 19:48:02 javuoi [i=javuoi@83.243.117.150.dynamic.cablesurf.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:59 anyone knows how to use the program to change the language in windows? www.vistalizator.de 19:49:09 almostsix [n=fiveandt@adsl-99-39-2-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:17 -!- almostsix [n=fiveandt@adsl-99-39-2-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 19:49:35 tcr: your target-thread patch looks like it's just formatting diffs...? 19:50:52 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:51:39 javuoi: Is that program related to lisp, or a library related to lisp. 19:52:06 froydnj: Sorry I tried to cancel that posting but that didn't seem to work 19:52:16 froydnj: there's a another one comming with a proper patch 19:52:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:50 tcr: ah! yes, that one looks more useful :) 19:53:07 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:54:17 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:54:47 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:54:59 Launchpad entries are good because when adding the test case I can just point to the LP number and do not have to copy the wordy explanation 19:58:34 rpg [n=rpg@fw.bryant.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:34 drewc: here? 19:59:44 lucindo [n=user@200-221-128-56.corp.uolinc.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:26 *lucindo* 20:00:59 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-14-179.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:02:15 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:02:31 tcr: is that you pinging me i see in my logs, or are my logs all messed up again? 20:02:58 (or both, but you wouldn't know if there were the case, so i won't ask you) 20:03:04 *leo2007* 20:03:46 drewc: I did ping you 20:04:00 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-16-219.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:04:10 -!- lucindo [n=user@200-221-128-56.corp.uolinc.com] has left #lisp 20:04:53 drewc: Could you create project/named-readtables/ ? I'd then like to symlink /project/named-readtables/public_html/index.html to /project/editor-hints/darcs/named-readtables/doc/named-readtables.html 20:05:25 drewc: The latter url is really awkwardly long 20:06:28 lucindo [n=user@200-221-128-56.corp.uolinc.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:59 -!- lucindo [n=user@200-221-128-56.corp.uolinc.com] has left #lisp 20:08:54 -!- Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:08:57 tcr: coming right up 20:09:20 -!- Kruppe [n=user@134.117.254.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:39 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:10:16 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:41 drewc, looks like it's request time. Can we have an israel-lisp mailing list? 20:11:26 Adlai: just the one list? 20:12:28 drewc, I think so... is there any other "package" offered by c-l.net that'd make more sense for a lisp user group? 20:12:52 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.69.22] has joined #lisp 20:13:46 Adlai: well, if you want a web page, say, you might as well just take a whole project. that way you get the announce and dev lists too, which might be nice for a user group... low traffic on announce and discussion/blather on the main list. 20:13:54 free lunch? 20:14:05 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:37 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:15:54 ok! I give in! we'll take a full project. 20:16:23 Adlai: what's your cl-net user name? 20:16:30 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-109-60.wbs.co.za] has quit ["leaving"] 20:16:35 achandrasekhar 20:17:14 i knew that.. silly me. 20:17:41 *Adlai* gets the long end of usernames that use the full last name... 20:18:26 Adlai: i can fit my first and last into your last! 20:19:49 hehe 20:20:16 *Adlai* gets a lot of "Are you related to that physicist/author/cricket player?" 20:20:31 (well, not so much of the last one) 20:20:46 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:21:18 chris____ [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 20:21:21 Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.85.35] has joined #lisp 20:22:12 i was trying to figure out where i new the name from! 20:22:27 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:22:43 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:23:10 though, as i understand indian names, chandrasekhar was his given name.... 20:23:20 Adlai: Well, are you? :-) 20:23:37 tcr, no/yes/yes 20:24:12 my grandfather took chandrasekhar as his family name when he got US citizenship 20:24:49 Adlai: ahh, makes sense. 20:25:01 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:30 (he's the author of http://www.amazon.com/Why-Things-Are-Way-They/dp/0521456606, and one of his cousins is the cricket player) 20:25:39 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:43 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 20:25:55 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 20:26:01 *stassats`* knows it because of a space observatory 20:26:16 named after the physicist, I think 20:26:32 right 20:26:47 Anyway, the reason I ask is that I'm writing a small interpreter, and the most obvious implementation of defun is (defmacro defun (name &rest args) (list 'setq name (cons 'lambda args)) 20:26:56 (It's a Lisp-1) 20:27:19 So wouldn't the most obvious implementation of defmacro be the same, except replacing the lambda with a hypothetical 'meta? 20:27:55 quotemstr, not necessarily -- it might "protect people from themselves" if you store macro expanders in a separate place 20:28:28 quotemstr: believe it or not, the Arc source might be a good place to look for inspiration 20:28:30 that way people won't get weird results by calling the expander for push when they wanted to cons 20:28:30 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:38 if anything, his macro system is nice and simple. 20:29:24 I'll read about Arc. I haven't heard of it before -- the dialects I've looked at are CL, Elisp, Scheme, and Clojure. 20:30:06 -!- TDT [n=user@dhcpw80ff96dc.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:25 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:30:25 arc doesn't add anything interesting and is basically a syntax for scheme, 20:30:40 aform [w/link (pr "you said: " (arg _ "foo")) (pr "click here")] 20:30:40 (input "foo") (submit))) 20:30:42 Yuck. 20:30:43 but he does implement defmacro for a simple lisp-1 20:30:57 the famous arc challenge 20:30:59 drewc: kind of like snarc for CL :) 20:31:39 snarc? 20:31:55 http://bitmuse.com/code/snarc.lisp 20:31:56 "The real test of Arcand any other general-purpose high level languageis not whether it contains feature x or solves problem y, but how long programs are in it." That, I vehemently disagree with. 20:31:58 (google leads me to Minsky's neural net) 20:32:10 drewc: I'm still meddling with it 20:32:37 there should be HQ9-AC, dialect of HQ9 with Arc Challenge 20:32:48 quotemstr: I guess we should all write APL and nothing else from now on. 20:32:57 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 20:33:04 dlowe: looks like you're having fun :) 20:33:05 sykopomp: Size of one of many criteria. 20:33:14 Brevity is nice. What it takes to turn app X into X-Prime is relevant too. 20:33:15 just give APL a nice standard library for web shit, and you're set :) 20:33:35 readability is better than 'brevity' 20:33:35 quotemstr: you and i are going to get along just fine :) 20:33:37 APL is fun 20:33:44 'brevity' turns into Perl and APL. 20:33:54 and I'd rather not maintain that kind of software. 20:34:07 i disagree with pretty much everything pg says after "lisp is good" 20:34:36 snarc.lisp reminds me of the famous ALGOL macros for Bourne shell. 20:35:02 http://www.bsdlover.cn/study/UnixTree/V7/usr/src/cmd/sh/fault.c.html 20:35:14 i had a syntax for lisp called PSIL that looked like a mix of APL and PERL 20:35:34 drewc: you're breaking my heart here. 20:35:39 drewc: Since that phrase is usually followed by "common lisp sucks" :) 20:35:41 good lord. 20:35:44 drewc: it would hurt less if you made fun of sheeple more. Let's go back to that. 20:36:13 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-4-185.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:36:21 Common lisp rocks. I just happen to like ? better than -p 20:36:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/29960 20:36:26 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 20:36:27 i pasted it! 20:36:41 Also, another quandry: should I make my function objects (not subrs) a separate kind of object, or just a funky cons lisp with 'lambda stuck on the front? 20:36:48 cons list, that i. 20:37:46 is this for fun, or are you greenspunning? 20:37:48 quotemstr: using a cons keeps it super simple 20:37:58 Fade: I'm Greenspunning. 20:38:11 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:12 that's unfortunate :) 20:38:13 Fade: It's for a C++ application. condition-case becomes try {...} catch... :-) 20:38:28 Fade: If I can keep it under 2,000 lines of code, GC included, I think it's worthwhile. 20:38:34 guile or tinyscheme have been ruled out? 20:38:37 what's condition-case? 20:38:41 minion, tell quotemstr about lisp500 20:38:42 quotemstr: direct your attention towards lisp500: A 500-line-or-less implementation of a basic Lisp, available at http://www.modeemi.fi/~chery/lisp500/ 20:38:51 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:39:05 Err, looking at lisp500's source, I think mine is about as complex, if a little more verbose. 20:39:15 i should try to build lisp500 on my mp3-player 20:39:22 Plus, I have FORMAT. 20:39:33 (If an Elispy variety.) 20:39:37 FORTRAN had FORMAT ;) 20:39:43 -!- nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:03 Fade: Guile's license isn't suitable, and while tinyscheme is neat, I can do better. Plus, I'm more used to CL syntax than Scheme. 20:40:17 FOR MAThematicians? 20:40:19 *drewc* thinks format is dirty, but has not seen a suitable replacement. 20:40:26 Fade: The idea is that I can use the same GC scheme for Lisp objects that I use for program objects, saving a whole bunch of code. 20:40:29 quotemstr: and Lua? 20:40:44 or ecl for that matter. 20:40:44 drewc: FORMAT is maybe the thing I most dislike about CL 20:40:47 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:40:57 you're describing a signifigant portion of ECL's raison d'etre. 20:40:57 Well, ELisp's format (and mine) is just a funky printf. 20:41:20 ECL looks neat, but it's too big. 20:42:10 drewc: I have this silly OUT hack (inspired by another Drew's YTOOLS:OUT) but it's really just a hack.. 20:42:14 adeht: unfortunately, i didn't really like OUT either.... when i looked at it years ago anyway... i should look again 20:42:36 drewc: I suppose you're talking about McDermott's? 20:42:40 Plus, it still doesn't integrate as well as I'd like. My Lisp's objects and exceptions just mix transparently with those of the surrounding program. 20:42:41 ya 20:43:10 quotemstr: the inevitable question : why can't you just use lisp in the first place? :) 20:43:13 drewc: check this OUT (pun-points): http://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/out.lisp 20:43:20 lithper2 [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 20:43:52 drewc: Because I don't know how to ship a 500kb binary written in Lisp that includes a Lisp interpreter. :-) 20:44:07 quotemstr: well, you may actually have a project on your hands, by the sounds of it. will you release it when done? 20:44:25 Why would you need to ship an interpreter? 20:44:26 The issue with OUT (and C++ extraction operators) is that when I'm doing complicated output, I want a _template_ 20:44:31 ah .. delivering on wristwatches are you? :P 20:44:32 quotemstr: lisp500 20:44:43 YAGL -- Yet Another Greenspunned Lisp 20:44:44 oh, you started there 20:44:50 Fade: Sure, though parts of it are pretty incestuously related to other parts of the program. GC is integrated into our userspace cooperative thread library, for example. 20:44:54 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:06 dlowe: Right. I can't stand iostreams. One word: internationalization. 20:45:07 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:19 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:45:31 OUT is to FORMAT what ITERATE is to LOOP 20:45:49 How expensive is (coerce foo '(simple-array single-float (16))) where foo is a (simple-vector 16)? 20:45:51 just putting a bunch of parentheses around the problem instead of solving it :) 20:45:58 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:46:05 *sykopomp* ducks. 20:46:16 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Success] 20:46:21 sykopomp: In all fairness, ITERATE isn't purely sugar. Its extensibility, and its generator support, are both very nice. 20:46:27 Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:46:32 Ralith: why do you need that? 20:46:32 quotemstr: MIT LOOP is extensible. 20:46:44 sykopomp: heh, i agree for the most part. 20:46:46 *quotemstr* wonders whether LOOP would work in a Lisp-1... 20:47:00 quotemstr, it should 20:47:01 quotemstr: of course, why not? 20:47:02 pkhuong: cl-opengl's get-float returns a simple-vectors, and I need to use sb-cga's matrix math on it. 20:47:03 quotemstr: why wouldn't it? 20:47:08 By LOOP I mean lightly modifier MIT LOOP, not LOOP in general. 20:47:14 pkhuong: alternatively, cl-opengl could be patched 20:47:20 modified, dammit. Damn cold weather. I can't type. 20:47:21 Ralith: I'd go with the latter. 20:47:22 dlowe: why's that? (if that's the usual "i18n argument".. it seems to be a problem specific to static languages.. what's wrong with just storing the forms?) 20:47:36 pkhuong: okay; who should I talk to to get it upstreamed? 20:47:44 adeht: You expect translators to write Lisp? 20:47:48 _3b`, I guess. 20:47:50 adeht: Teaching them about format strings is hard enough. 20:47:52 quotemstr: yes 20:47:54 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:47:59 adeht: i like your define-out-op 20:48:03 pkhuong: _3b is upstream? I thought he just had his own fork. 20:48:30 but given that his is one of the few actually working forks. 20:48:45 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:49:00 what about mainline? :P 20:49:29 I also have a novel precise GC mechanism that uses C++ smart pointers, but no reference counting. :-) 20:49:41 adeht: i want local operators (outlet ((:d (stream &rest ....))) (out ...)) 20:49:42 I wonder if just dumping stuff into a stream manually would be horrible compared to a complex format stream. 20:49:48 obviously nowhere as concise... 20:50:00 string* 20:50:05 adeht: and outlet is a brilliant name! :) 20:50:38 slap a couple of functions in there to tabulate crap or something. 20:50:39 i have way to much real work to do today, must avoid getting sidetracked by interesting hacks! 20:50:53 drewc: you're telling me. I shouldn't be IRCing at work :| 20:51:02 drewc: use case for local ops?.. 20:51:18 sykopomp, part of the power of FORMAT, as was mentioned earlier, is that it gives you a template for the output 20:51:32 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:51:53 adeht: Use case for local functions? 20:52:28 I'm not sure I like outlet; i'd rather have a saner ~// 20:52:48 is it possible to call symbols with #\/ in their name using ~// ? 20:53:12 Adlai: and one of the problems with FORMAT is having to figure out where the hell things actually go in that damn template. 20:53:24 and of course, memorizing all the mega-magic operators inside the template. 20:53:38 you don't need to memorize them -- C-c C-d ~ 20:53:43 ...huh. 20:53:49 or look them up each time :| 20:54:02 adeht: file:///home/drewc/src/cl-org-mode/cl-org-mode.html#sec-6.2 <---- see the %t operator there, and a few other things that are needlessly complex. WARNING: HACK ALERT! 20:54:04 how do I create a simple-array, for that matter? 20:54:04 tcr: they are generally convenient in that you don't need to pass all parameters again 20:54:04 20:54:13 Ralith, make-array 20:54:18 Adlai: that keeps giving me vectors 20:54:27 :element-type 'single-float 20:54:28 sykopomp: I'm amused that you're so bothered by the tradeoff 20:54:28 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.85.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:31 adeht: Talking about flet? 20:54:36 oh, nevermind 20:54:38 had the typespec wrong 20:54:50 adeht: Actually I try not to create closures with flet 20:54:51 tcr: this all started with my assertion that FORMAT was insane to begin with :) 20:54:52 dlowe: as opposed to having something readable instead of cryptic symbols? 20:54:56 I'm using lisp, not Perl. 20:55:18 Is there a way to get the lisp type corresponding to a CFFI type? 20:55:30 tcr: you said "local functions", I assumed usual use of flet/labels/lambda 20:55:35 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-244-53.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:06 Ralith: you could get the CFFI type to correspond to the lisp type :) 20:56:25 sykopomp: don't think that's an option 20:56:28 it is 20:56:30 adeht: I mean that you may have a print operation that you want to use multiple times, but only within one function 20:56:40 sykopomp: it's not 1:1 20:56:49 drewc: you need to give me access to your machine first :) 20:56:58 adeht: damnit , 20:56:59 adeht: but really, rather add a (:call #'foo ...) operator 20:57:09 Ralith: you can define how to make it so. 20:57:18 wat 20:57:19 adeht: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/#sec-6.2 20:57:26 http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/define_002dforeign_002dtype.html#define_002dforeign_002dtype 20:57:28 is there a way to get the corresponding lisp type or not 20:57:35 tcr: there's :U 20:57:39 Oh! 20:58:03 Another nice thing about Greenspunning is that you can implement generic functions (like LENGTH, PRINT, etc.) simply by using C++ virtual member functions on lisp_object. 20:58:11 sykopomp: that doesn't have any way to make it 1:1 20:58:17 And it Just Works for extension types. 20:58:28 quotemstr, I wouldn't call those "generic", since that has a different meaning in CL 20:58:53 drewc: did you notice :U ? would that not be a good solution? 20:59:00 Adlai: Polymorphic, then? 20:59:01 -!- javuoi [i=javuoi@83.243.117.150.dynamic.cablesurf.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:59:17 adeht: i didn't, and it probably is. 20:59:19 Adlai: (And #'+ really should have been a CLOS-style generic function, dammit, and CL really should have been able to dispatch based on non-class types.) 20:59:25 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:59:29 no, no, no 20:59:34 #'+ is variadic 20:59:41 dispatch on non-class types, eh? 20:59:41 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:59:44 quotemstr, sure. about dispatch on non-class types -- 20:59:50 minion, filtered functions? 20:59:51 filtered functions: Filtered functions provide an extension of generic function invocation that add a simple preprocessing step before the actual method dispatch is performed and thus enable the use of arbitrary predicates for selecting and applying methods. http://www.cliki.net/filtered%20functions 20:59:58 bah, Costanza gets all the good press 21:00:14 my specializers are more general! And much less convenient! You'll learn much more by using them! 21:00:14 Please solve the halting problem first. 21:00:45 Krystof, he only gets it because he's able to write MOP hacks on an implementation that supports them as-is :) 21:02:02 Krystof pasted "generic +" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93958 21:02:11 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051106009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:02:21 please do not use that paste as evidence of my lack of knowledge of discrete mathematics 21:02:24 highly work in progress 21:03:33 ooo, unicode characters and everything 21:04:28 heh 21:04:32 next step, elliptic curves! 21:05:09 when I played with "generic ops" I had a macro defining unaryX, binaryX and optionally nullaryX for X op 21:07:54 -!- Cheery [n=cheery@a91-156-181-154.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has left #lisp 21:09:46 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-66-210.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:10:05 -!- dostoyev1ky is now known as dostoyevsky 21:16:56 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:39 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:17:48 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:31 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 21:20:41 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:33 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:39 jucs [n=jucs@2001:470:1f0a:1591:0:0:0:3] has joined #lisp 21:24:46 :-D 21:24:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:25:14 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-33-139.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:23 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 21:30:28 nicdev [n=nicdev@st401-104.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 21:32:59 nicdev pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93963 21:33:24 -!- cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 21:33:26 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 21:33:37 -!- cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:33:43 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 21:33:43 how can i return a list from the function 21:34:21 the same way you return any other object 21:35:47 adeht: am new to the language...can you elaborate a little bit. i want a list of all values of n generated 21:35:48 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-106-80.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 21:36:08 it looks like you just typed that straight into the lisppaste input box 21:36:32 nicdev: did Prof. Rager not give you an introductory text? 21:38:13 minion: tell nicdev about gentle 21:38:14 nicdev: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 21:38:51 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA9EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:53 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA9EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:40:30 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:32 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:43:24 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:55 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.78.77] has joined #lisp 21:45:45 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 21:49:03 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:53 Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-77-172.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:52:04 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:48 -!- nicdev [n=nicdev@st401-104.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has left #lisp 21:55:34 Blkt` [n=user@host-78-13-246-202.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:57:10 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:22 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:58:41 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:34 Sergio`__ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:00:04 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-47-210.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:05 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:01:49 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:12 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-116-3.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 22:02:36 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:04:10 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:06:48 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 22:08:45 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-37-100.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:00 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:30 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:10:08 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:10:19 -!- austinh_ is now known as austinh 22:12:40 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:07 -!- Blkt [n=user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-225-179.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:11 -!- felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:15:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:15 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:17:56 tankrim [n=qsvans@c-14f9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:18:24 for some funny reason, if I stress my machine by having sbcl create hundreds of threads, afterwards my lastfm client will hog up all cpu 22:18:31 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:56 tcr: Either trying to catch up its backlog, or because it got so far behind in interacting with the soundcard or something that it managed to get wedged somehow? 22:21:13 -!- aputtu [n=aputsiaq@88.83.2.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:59 prxq [n=mommer@f051106009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:24:28 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:51 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 22:28:22 Of course. 22:28:27 Why don't I just expand macros *lazily*? 22:28:45 *nyef* winces at the thought of trying to compile that. 22:28:46 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:06 nyef: It's for an interpreter. Where does it say that eval can't destructively modify the form being evaluated anyway? :-) 22:29:10 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 22:29:54 In CL, I could probably dig up chapter and verse. In an MFTL, it doesn't. 22:30:04 MFTL? 22:30:09 My F Toy Lisp 22:30:14 nyef: isn't that what a fexpr is ? 22:30:20 Ah. 22:30:25 nyef: It's only prohibited by users, not by the implementator 22:30:32 s/by/for/g 22:31:20 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.bryant.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:31:55 fe[nl]ix: With destructive update of the source form? I somehow find that less than convincing, but I also have very little clue as to how a fexpr actually works. 22:32:20 On the other hand, destructively and magically modifying the source form is a really bad idea. 22:32:37 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 22:32:44 Especially since to do it right, you'd have to destructively modify the caller's value! That's really magical. 22:32:49 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:04 no it's not, if you have a proper Lisp 22:33:43 It is not always true that for a function F, it holds that (let* ((a foo) (b a)) (F a) (eq a b)) ? 22:33:46 nyef: I meant that lazy macro := fexpr 22:34:07 "It's too bad that the word 'stutter' doesn't have an L in it." 22:34:38 quotemstr: I would bet the answer is T 22:35:25 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:57 *Adlai* (define-modify-macro F () not) 22:35:59 -!- Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:00 Xach: therep? 22:36:28 I'm assuming you mean that F is a function, though 22:36:37 Adlai: That's what I said. :-) 22:36:49 it is not always true 22:37:04 *Adlai* blinks repeatedly and headdesks. 22:37:07 quotemstr: even without the F call it's not necessarily the case that it's true 22:37:10 abugosh [n=Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 22:37:11 if foo is a number or a character 22:37:35 "An implementation is permitted to make ``copies'' of characters and numbers at any time. The effect is that Common Lisp makes no guarantee that eq is true even when both its arguments are ``the same thing'' if that thing is a character or number." 22:37:40 Krystof: s/eq/eql ? 22:37:52 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 22:37:57 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.78.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:58 quotemstr: (defvar a) 22:38:12 Krystof: so if it would not be eq, it would not depend on whatever f does 22:38:19 Also might not hold for SAPs. The compiler is awful cons-happy with them for some reason. 22:38:29 SAP? 22:38:29 no, it might depend on what F does 22:38:44 I'm allowed to write a non-deterministic number copier if I feel like it 22:39:09 if foo is an array... 22:39:32 #3a(((#:FOO))) 22:39:34 drewc's point is also good 22:40:03 (defun f (x) (setf a 'haha) (1+ x)) 22:40:13 if a has been previously declaimed special 22:40:24 oh, right 22:40:25 Or B, for that matter. 22:40:49 what an exciting language! 22:41:04 Dammit. 22:41:16 anything could happen! :-) 22:41:24 macro-defining macros don't work correctly with over-eager expansion. 22:41:49 prxq: With symbol-macrolet, literally anything. :-) 22:42:59 -!- xffff [n=mike@88.130.220.118] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:12 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:43:57 That's interesting. 22:44:02 eval doesn't inherit the local lexical environment. 22:44:29 quotemstr: I think the point is that you can break it. Depending on what you do, these things can be pretty stable 22:44:44 Stable in what respect? 22:45:38 that it works as you expect 22:46:40 well, I just bumped in the conversation. I don't really know what you are trying to do. 22:46:50 s/in/into/ 22:46:57 I'm writing an interpreter and bugging everyone here about implementation choices. 22:46:57 :-) 22:47:36 in what language are you writing the interpreter? 22:47:41 C++. 22:49:10 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:08 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:04 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051106009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["zZZzzZzzz.."] 22:52:10 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229080164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:52:24 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- dfox_ [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- Guest48615 [i=irssi_lo@78.114.188.207] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.248.210] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:24 -!- wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo212187.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [jordan.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:52:25 dmm_ [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:27 mgr_ [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:27 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:52:29 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@pool-96-236-121-212.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:30 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-109-64-24-30.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:35 dfox_ [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:52:40 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo212187.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:52:43 cmm [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has joined #lisp 22:52:43 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 22:52:48 Holcxjo [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:53 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-106-80.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:52:56 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 22:57:51 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [] 23:00:45 ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 23:02:32 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.188.207] has joined #lisp 23:02:46 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.248.210] has joined #lisp 23:04:32 -!- jucs [n=jucs@2001:470:1f0a:1591:0:0:0:3] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:05:44 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:08:40 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.51.122] has joined #lisp 23:09:45 konr [n=user@189.96.198.133] has joined #lisp 23:09:54 -!- tankrim [n=qsvans@c-14f9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 23:12:31 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.198.133] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:13:41 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-130.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 23:14:00 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.66.51.122] has quit [] 23:14:41 konr [n=user@187.88.204.2] has joined #lisp 23:16:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 23:18:45 hacking on a script = 3 hours, seeing the result that you expected = priceless 23:20:40 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-9-116.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:24:14 Other than macro hygiene, is there any reason to complain about CL's code being specified as being conses? 23:24:45 Moon complains about annotation 23:24:56 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 23:25:12 adeht: explain? 23:26:37 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dave+moon+conses+annotation :) 23:26:44 hefner: :| 23:26:51 thank you >_> 23:26:59 http://www.archub.org/arcsug.txt 23:28:03 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:23 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 23:28:40 not just moon 23:28:42 I was surprised to discover that cl-gtk2 doesn't work with ecl because ecl doesn't have any support for weak hash tables. 23:29:22 sykopomp: I don't think conses play a role in hygiene 23:32:21 mbohun [n=mbohun@202.124.73.106] has joined #lisp 23:36:56 If a LET binding can only have one value-form, why is each binding a list and not a cons? 23:37:28 quotemstr: because (let (foo bar baz) ...) is equivalent to (let ((foo nil) (bar nil) (baz nil)) ...) 23:37:58 That would still work. 23:38:00 quotemstr: because it's annoying to type (a . 1) rather than (a 1) 23:38:10 quotemstr: because i don't want to type . every time i need a binding 23:38:23 Fair enough. :-) 23:39:04 it's supposed to be _less_ ugly than ((lambda (a) ...) 1) ;) 23:39:12 tcr: I mean, defining code to just be conses, as opposed to 'syntax objects' (which, in the case of scheme, definitely play a role in hygiene) 23:39:23 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:39:46 -!- Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-77-172.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:40:27 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:41:36 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42:12 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-4-185.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:51 So SBCL *does* have an interpreter? 23:45:35 (documentation (find-package "SB-EVAL") 't) 23:45:53 quotemstr: yes. It's a somewhat recent addition, so older documents might assume SBCL is still a compile-only implementation 23:46:12 drewc: Yeah, the last time I used SBCL, it had no interpreter. 23:46:28 There were really situations where the compile-everything approach was too expensive? 23:47:36 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:47:38 anton_v [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 23:48:11 well, it means the mythical tree shaker can remove the compiler and leave you with a working CLOS implementation, for one. 23:48:15 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:16 sykopomp: No I don't think so. I think syntax object are not even standard. Perhaps you're confusing syntax objects with syntactic closures? 23:48:30 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:48:42 sykopomp: (That said, I'm not sure myself and I haven't checked because I'll leave now.) 23:48:57 drewc, is a tree shaker in the works for sbcl? 23:49:06 drewc: Can't you do enough static analysis to determine that? :-P 23:49:29 malsyned: not afaik. 23:50:17 drewc, how is the compiler(/interpreter) used at run time in CLOS? 23:50:55 malsyned: for computing the discriminating function, for one thing 23:51:16 quotemstr: I found it useful. I used to dump and eval large (hundreds of kilobytes) s-exps of code as a way of exporting data from an application into lisp. Having to compile it first (just to evaluate it once), in SBCL circa 2007, took about ten minutes. With the SBCL's interpreter enabled, it took 30 seconds maybe. 23:52:10 hefner: Ah, I see how that can make sense. At that point, though, wouldn't just using the reader (without the evaluator) make more sense? 23:52:22 arguably what I was doing was just braindead and not a justification for the interpreter, but, hey, it was the path of least resistance, and worked fine in CMUCL which I was using first 23:53:08 malsyned: what tcr said. defmethod essentially stores method bodies as lambda-expressions and mucks about with them in various ways 23:53:10 quotemstr: if I use the reader, I have to write an interpreter. to turn the s-exp into a real data structure. I might as well save myself the trouble and call eval. 23:53:41 Presumably your stuff is a tad more regular than general Lisp code though. :-) 23:54:02 malsyned: Just trace a function internally used in the compiler, and you'll see spooky diagnostics printed at seemingly random points. 23:54:18 quotemstr: yeah, I don't think I was even using any special forms. I probably could've just recursed the tree and called APPLY. 23:54:34 malsyned: (for example, slime's autodoc is run automatically in the background and uses clos/mop) 23:56:20 malsyned: so, for CLOS/MOP, you need at least the 'minimal compilation' features provided by the spec at run time in various instances. An intepreter has to be a compiler too, really. :) 23:56:23 hmm, not exactly true, I used some macros. 23:57:28 That is pretty crazy. 23:58:09 malsyned: Implementors basically just give up and cache method calls. 23:58:35 drewc: isn't that more a property of how PCL implements CLOS rather than CLOS itself? 23:58:43 malsyned: i suppose all the interpreter really needs is (coerce (cons 'lambda ....) 'function).