00:02:38 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:02:54 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 00:03:34 porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:35 zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:37 mrSpec: on my websites the name of the login and password parameters, and the the URL it posts to, change on every request. In those cases you have no choice but to parse the html from the first request 00:04:55 drewc: Why change the parameters each request of the page? 00:05:12 drewc: ok, but when I send this parsed data... I have to send it with new request? 00:05:25 then new cookie is set, and login fail :/ 00:05:46 TDT: to make login using scripts harder ;) 00:06:31 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:05 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:06 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 00:10:10 mrSpec: yeah, just not sure the point of that so much. I guss for making comments on a site, ok..maybe..but capcha seems to work fairly well under most circumstances already. Personally I like to make scripts that automate at least in a small way some stuff I gotta deal with online. 00:10:45 e.g. I made a script to pull stuff from a ticket tracking system we use, Redmine, and push it into org-mode files. Was extremely helpful in avoiding logging into redmine for stuff unless I had to close a ticket ;) 00:11:14 TDT: because in UCW you're abstracted away from the idea of passing things in GET and POST parameters, so the names are generated by the compiler.. you write code like (let ((user (show-login-page))) (if user (show-user-page) (show-signup-page))) 00:12:15 TDT: my apps all use well formed xhtml, so it doesn't hurt the scriptability 00:12:34 it just means you have to write a function to automate what you are doing manually... 00:12:47 which is a good idea anyway, imo. 00:13:14 most of the time, yes..unless things change drastically on the page, then there's a good chance pregs will break 00:13:49 Sadly really logging in via any script is really broken...at least when there is rest/xmlrpc available under many systems now which are better to use. 00:14:13 Redmine, sadly, sucks at having any API to work with which was kinda annoying :) 00:14:58 TDT: if things change a lot, either method is broken :) 00:15:04 very true 00:15:09 and yes, API's are the right way to do it. 00:15:56 i seriously need to move my projects to common-lisp.net sometime 00:16:07 looking at your ucw project right now drewc 00:16:44 TDT: http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw-core/doc/getting-started.txt 00:17:46 jlpeters [n=james@64.122.102.122] has joined #lisp 00:19:12 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:23 yeah, seems pretty straightforward on what it's used for. I recall another project that does something simimar, but i forget the name. 00:20:14 TDT: UCW was based on Seaside, Avi Bryant's smalltalk framework. 00:20:21 That's one area of lisp I haven't don emuch of, and that's web stuff. Moving my blog from a virtual dedicated server to shared hosting, hence the cl-wordpress library I'm making - sadly not sure dreamhost will actually have the ability to load the cgi required for getting a webapp going. 00:20:44 -!- jlpeters [n=james@64.122.102.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:45 TDT: or you might be thinking of weblocks, which was created because the author didn't understand UCW, so wanted to re-implement it to learn. 00:20:54 jlpeters [n=james@64.122.102.122] has joined #lisp 00:21:06 TDT: tech.coop offers web hosting for lisp based apps. 00:21:42 on a shared hosting platform if you so desire 00:22:24 however, we also have virtual dedicated as well, which is really the better way to go. 00:22:56 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [] 00:26:30 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 00:26:37 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 00:26:58 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 00:28:10 yeah, I like virtual dedicated a lot - it's just pretty expensive 00:28:26 and yes, 20 a month is expensive over a year when I don't put ads on my wbe site or anything :) 00:32:28 -!- `26 [n=kvirc@216.252.89.228] has left #lisp 00:33:53 TDT: indeed it can be. We can do better than $20/mo if you want a VPS... otherwise we're better than dreamhost anyway! email me drewc@tech.coop if you need excellent webhosting :) 00:34:00 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:35:05 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:56 drewc: do you do non-lisp vps hosting? 00:38:47 kpreid: you bet... if it wants to be on a server, we want to host it. 00:38:49 They have ruby/python cgi from what I read too 00:38:53 kpreid: who would ever want that? 00:38:54 ^^ 00:39:07 (and our website is about 3 years out of date) 00:39:17 ignore the website, email me directly :) 00:39:20 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051132051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:39:29 james_ [n=james@64.122.102.122] has joined #lisp 00:39:45 drewc: are the prices accurate? 00:40:02 TDT: no, everything is significantly cheaper. 00:40:44 we're not in 'growth mode' right now, so the website is not a top priority. We'll be overhauling it this summer when we introduce some new services. 00:40:49 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 00:42:01 For service, on planned outages how are those communicated? That's one big issue I ahve with the current company I'm with (not dreamhost, but RoseHosting - my vps service) in that sometimes stuff randomly goes down here and there because of changes they're making. 00:42:54 definitely off topic now..sorry, I will just email questions I have and all. 00:43:40 TDT: we never really plan for outages... we try to avoid them at all costs. In the event that there is something wrong, we try to give at least a week's notice. 00:44:00 TDT: we have a 'premium' platform available as well that costs a little more, but never goes down. 00:44:08 (or at least, has never gone done) 00:46:12 16:45:56 up 852 days, 4:27, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.02 00:46:13 00:46:16 *Fade* watches drewc bait the gods 00:47:52 Fade: heh ... the non-premium servers seem to go done once a year at least... it's like a sacrifice to them. 00:48:18 entropy catches up 00:48:23 just as the dude abides. 00:48:44 god I hate wordpress so much right now 00:49:09 Their xmlrpc has support for 3-4 separate APIs, all doing slightly different things with different needs. This library is a PITA at the moment 00:49:30 ahhh. web. how I loathe you. 00:52:53 -!- james_ [n=james@64.122.102.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:52:58 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:01 -!- jlpeters [n=james@64.122.102.122] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:55:45 an enemy of the future! burn him! 00:59:15 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:25 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00:28 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 01:00:35 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:04:57 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:04 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-104.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:12:46 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-116-227.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["zz"] 01:16:12 pjb [n=t@228.Red-79-149-145.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:21 -!- pjb [n=t@228.Red-79-149-145.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 01:16:28 pjb [n=t@228.Red-79-149-145.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:32 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:35 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 01:24:58 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:03 csmerlin [n=cbuschar@c-24-6-216-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:57 is there a function like file-position that does the _other_ thing with regards to character streams? 01:26:17 that is, return sequential integers as characters are written. 01:26:30 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:40 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 01:29:16 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:31:53 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:31:55 drewc: file-position does it too. 01:32:58 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.173] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:18 pjb: file position is allowed to return any number > 1 after writing a single character to a freshly created stream. I need it to return 1 01:33:43 I think the answer is going to be "not portably". 01:34:00 Largely on the strength of line-ending conversions, multi-byte character encodings, etc. 01:34:16 zeev [i=cf6664aa@gateway/web/freenode/x-cisvsdozfhtenttf] has joined #lisp 01:34:23 drewc: indeed. When you write a #\newline, usually it returns 2. 01:34:47 i just want to know how many characters i've written to the stream... i suppose i can count them myself. 01:34:56 drewc: and when you write to punch card, usually it returns (* 80 (1+ n)), after a #\newline... 01:35:12 -!- zeev [i=cf6664aa@gateway/web/freenode/x-cisvsdozfhtenttf] has quit [Client Quit] 01:35:21 damnit... i always forget about punch cards :) 01:35:34 drewc: do you realize that file positions and character count are two totally unrelated notions? 01:36:05 pjb: yes, hence my reason for asking about a function that counts characters and not bytes 01:36:10 drewc: actually, we say punch cards, but it could be any blocked file format. 01:36:12 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.247] has joined #lisp 01:36:26 for a character stream, i thought such a thing might exist. 01:36:29 drewc: ok. So indeed, you have to count your own characters. 01:37:00 ok, nothing a gray stream won't solve if it bugs me. 01:37:40 Well, or writting a lightweight wrapper. 01:38:02 yeah, that comes first, and if that bugs me, then i hide it 01:38:04 drewc: Hi drewc. Was wondering if you had a first draft of that CPS/continuations article you were writing. 01:38:13 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-177-93.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:29 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 01:38:31 felideon: ah right... i ended up having to upgrade emacs. 01:38:38 *drewc* gets it 01:38:56 drewc: np 01:40:26 file:///home/drewc/src/PWAP/continuations.html 01:40:27 wait... 01:40:33 that's not going to work 01:40:36 lol 01:42:04 felideon: unfortunately, i stopped writing just before i answer the question you had, and right before i get into the interesting bits. 01:42:05 http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/continuations.html 01:42:07 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:23 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.205] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:43:23 felideon: but it's my introduction, so let me know if it makes sense and you follow, and then we can talk about how UCW implements call/cc 01:43:31 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:43:44 drewc: sure, sounds good. 01:44:08 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-53-126.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:47:38 is PWAP anything specific? 01:47:58 felideon: yeah, a book i like to pretend i'm writing. 01:48:22 drewc: awesome :) 01:48:26 this is the start of the chapter on continuations :) 01:48:37 and the outline of the rest of the chapter 01:49:39 lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.169] has joined #lisp 01:50:33 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:53:00 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:56:35 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:05 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.64.25] has joined #lisp 01:57:27 -!- Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:51 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:00:03 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-36-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:29 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 02:01:41 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 02:01:48 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:02:12 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 02:02:39 ericjames [n=ericjeld@dynamic-acs-24-144-129-154.zoominternet.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:44 -!- Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-gqzlxpdlxfxqltel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:02:51 Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ppjzqkyesghabgxb] has joined #lisp 02:03:12 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:05:06 Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:40 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:49 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:08:36 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:39 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 02:10:17 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@dynamic-acs-24-144-129-154.zoominternet.net] has left #lisp 02:13:09 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-152-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:44 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 02:16:55 ok well one question so far is why can't I call CONTINUATION-FOR-NUMBER-1 straight from GUESSING-GAME-C1, like http://paste.lisp.org/+20E0 02:18:49 milanj [n=milan@93.87.166.102] has joined #lisp 02:21:43 davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-152-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:05 -!- davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-152-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:43 lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:54 GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 02:25:12 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:51 Ok, I guess it sets us up for reifying the continuation but I was unsure why we needed that in-between function 02:26:27 -!- n1t0r [n=nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:26:27 felideon: it was just to set us up for reifying the continuation... is it confusing? 02:26:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:38 drewc: only until I got to the reification part, at which point I understood the why 02:27:45 felideon: ah good 02:28:02 and yeah, you can call the continuation from within the main function 02:28:28 but i wanted to show that you can move what used to be in that main function into a continuation that is known inside get-input 02:28:39 nitor [n=nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:46 felideon: perhaps i'll add in intermediate transformation where i keep it in the main function at first, and then show that it can be moved into get-input? 02:30:57 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 02:31:11 -!- nitor is now known as n1t0r 02:31:23 i was trying to setup (defun get-input-k (prompt k) (funcall k (get-input prompt))) , but i might have jumped ahead a little there. 02:31:23 02:31:23 02:32:02 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:34 right. I'm not sure if the extra intermediate transformation is necessary, but maybe just a note explaining it 02:33:01 necessary to understand I mean 02:34:05 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:21 wxlu_ [n=wxlu@60.163.133.7] has joined #lisp 02:34:34 -!- wxlu_ [n=wxlu@60.163.133.7] has left #lisp 02:35:02 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:35:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:35:11 felideon: ok thanks, i'll keep it in mind next revision 02:36:04 drewc: cool 02:36:42 *Ralith* has occasion to use ,@`(...) 02:36:46 yay syntax! 02:36:57 wot? 02:37:06 how is ,@`(...) superior to ...? 02:37:14 felideon: besides the obvious grammar and formatting fixups, was it any good as an introduction, and did it make sense? 02:37:22 s/superior to/different from/ 02:37:28 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.169] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:39 kpreid: some of the ... is unquoted. 02:37:48 so what? 02:38:06 For ,@ to be valid in the first place, you're already in a backquote. 02:38:11 if you're using , then the ...what nyef said. 02:38:20 ...hm 02:38:28 ..wow, you're right 02:38:32 I am surprised that did not occur to me. 02:38:57 it was a replacement for an append operation which was itself redundant to just working in the top level backquote. 02:39:39 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:23 Aww. We're in freeze. So much for checking my stuff in tonight. 02:42:09 drewc: yes, it was, and it did. :) 02:43:00 felideon: excellent. So, UCW does not use CPS at all, but rather implements an interpreter for CL, and interprets it at run time. 02:43:22 drewc: i've read the Wikipedia entries on continuations and CPS style but never really understood them, I guess practically speaking, until now 02:43:37 felideon: brilliant, that's what i was aiming for! 02:44:38 i plan to finish it with an explanation of the UCW interpreter, as well as a CPS transformer, before moving on the the continuation monad. 02:45:24 is the continuation monad already implemented in UCW, or is that what you're working on with dweeb? 02:45:47 that's what i'm doing with dweeb, which has been renamed FTW! 02:45:51 For The Web! 02:46:01 ohh nice 02:46:02 A tasteful renaming? 02:46:05 because that fits my naming scheme :) 02:46:09 i thought you meant you actually renamed it to dweeb 02:46:14 very nice 02:46:37 it was dweeb ya, but since i haven't released... i'm still allowed to change it. 02:46:55 and FTW! fits better with lol, rofl and wtf 02:47:22 yes indeed 02:47:23 wtf? 02:47:33 Working Test Framework 02:47:36 ah 02:47:48 it's my repl test framework 02:48:10 basically, you type a form at the repl.. if it was correct you type wtf:ok 02:48:21 that records the form and it's output 02:48:46 wtf:compile returns a form that when executed will run the recorded tests. 02:48:47 *nyef* notes that the perfect name for a lisp speech recognizer would be "Talk To Your Lisp". 02:49:03 this form does not require wtf, it's complied down to portable CL 02:49:25 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:42 it's an effort to encourage myself to have more tests without having to change my workflow too much. 02:51:57 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:52:19 felideon: the essence of the continuation monad is simple... instead of requiring all our functions to also take their continuation, we instead have all our functions return a lambda that itself takes the continuation. 02:52:44 kylemcg`` [n=user@c-76-19-221-246.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:01 those lambda's are equivalent to stack frames, and the continuation monad is just a way to automate that transformation and the wrapping/unwrapping of functions 02:55:14 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.166.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:56:54 drewc: does wtf:bbq do anything? :) 02:58:25 drewc: interesting. 02:58:27 felideon: heh .. that's what i'm going to rename wtf:compile 02:58:31 i like it! 02:58:37 haha 02:59:38 felideon: with the continuation monad, you still have to manually call the continuation every time, just like in CPS. But, in CL, we can use the condition system to cheat. 02:59:51 felideon: which is what i do in FTW! 03:00:17 http://paste.lisp.org/display/92830 <-- which you can see here 03:00:47 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:01:11 -!- leo2007` [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:12 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:14 the DWEB-VALUE macro is where all the magic takes place. 03:01:32 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 03:06:38 lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.80.45] has joined #lisp 03:10:27 -!- kylemcg` [n=user@c-76-19-221-246.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:48 well it was certainly interesting to read that code, which I of course don't understand. but it gives me a lot to read more of :) 03:13:17 s/that/some of that 03:15:53 -!- kylemcg`` [n=user@c-76-19-221-246.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has 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FOO in DEFUN" 03:27:03 fmu [i=root@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 03:27:07 but if I (load "file") that has such a redefinition, i do not get the redefinition warning. 03:27:11 djinni` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-234-156.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:16 is that by design? 03:27:40 just to avoid the torrent of warnings you'd get if they weren't suppressed? 03:28:15 ISTR that SLIME has something to suppress those warnings for that reason, yes. 03:28:16 this is slime/sbcl, if it makes any difference 03:28:24 ah 03:28:32 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon 03:28:38 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:02 csmerlin [n=cbuschar@c-24-6-216-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:14 tvaalen [n=r@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 03:36:14 what is a "dynamic" variable? what is a variable if other than dynamic? 03:36:39 Variables come in three flavors: Lexical, dynamic, and constant. 03:36:48 yates: it's a special variable. 03:37:11 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-152-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:37:39 ok, thanks nyef 03:37:49 i see it's chap 6 in pcl 03:37:50 Constant variables aren't the latter. Lexical variables can only be seen within the lexical scope of their bindings. Dynamic variables can be seen within the dynamic contour of their bindings. 03:37:51 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72622d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:04 yates: do you know the difference between lexical binding and dynamic binding? 03:38:07 pjb: not yet 03:38:35 yates: http://www.flownet.com/ron/specials.pdf 03:38:57 felideon: just what i needed! 03:40:08 nyef: thx - i need to read some since there are several terms you used that i don't yet grok 03:41:35 heh .. i have yates /ignored and it looked like nyef was talking to himself :) 03:41:57 i was so confused until someone prefixed the yates: :) 03:42:09 *drewc* un-/ignores 03:42:31 thank you :) 03:42:59 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.248.210] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.188.207] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo212187.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 Holcxjo [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 addled [n=adl@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 slather_ [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 dfox_ [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-jnrafnblykvqbtmy] has joined #lisp 03:43:37 -!- lemoinem is now known as Guest81951 03:43:37 -!- Ginei_Morioka is now known as Guest48615 03:44:15 drewc: so, TAL? is this something you use when writing web apps these days? 03:44:32 pjb: i thought you were diss'ing me when you said it's a "special" variable! :) 03:46:53 -!- anton_v [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:48:09 guys(/gals), btw, thx for all your help (so far). if you give a rat's whiskers, here's the knowledge domain i'm coming from (notice it doesn't include lisp): http://www.digitalsignallabs.com - i know some of my questions seem very stupid/basic, but i ask without pretending knowledge i don't have and starting with (i hope) the basics (where else do you start?) 03:48:29 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:50:46 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 03:52:07 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:53:26 is the Erann Get on this channel? 03:53:34 s/Get/Gat/ 03:53:40 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 03:53:46 felideon: I have used TAL before when working with designers who provided me with xhtml, but unless that's the case templates are crap :O) 03:54:05 yates: no, Ron Garret, as how is now know, is not here AFAIK. 03:54:09 now known* 03:54:39 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-177-93.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:55:09 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:55:32 yates: you should start like the rest of us did .. read, code and read and code. Asking every random question that comes into your mind without first making every effort to research the answer shows a profound lack of respect for our time. 03:56:31 drewc: understood 03:57:14 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:57:21 but also, i don't think it's reasonable to expect taht everyone learns the same way. but i get your point nonetheless. 03:57:55 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:58:13 and you are right, mostly... 03:59:46 yates: if you need to be taught to learn, find a teacher. I'd be happy to do it, i'll even discount my usual rates for you. 04:00:19 drewc: do i owe you anything? :P 04:01:06 felideon: you've paid it forward :) 04:01:55 felideon: anything i've taught you has not been well documented and the lack of documentation has been my fault :) 04:03:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 04:03:29 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:44 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:03:52 hehe 04:05:18 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:38 drewc: there is always room for improvement 04:15:55 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:17:55 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:18:34 'clbuild compile-implementation' on osx is giving me an sbcl without :sb-thread and with failing sb-posix selftest. any idea why? 04:20:23 i love it (re: PhD): "...and you're willing to put up with the bullshit it takes to slog your way through a Ph.D. program somewhere." 04:22:16 Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:47 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-255-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:17 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 04:26:48 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:28:28 -!- csmerlin [n=cbuschar@c-24-6-216-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:28:35 csmerlin [n=cbuschar@c-24-6-216-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:44 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:29:15 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:29:50 so if you're doing basically stream-like stuff - records from a database, lines from a file, etc - is there a stream protocol that's worth conforming to, or may one just aswell define new open/close/read/write methods? 04:32:55 lukego: there are gray streams, but i suggest writing your own protocol first, and only then deciding if it makes sense to make your-streams into cl:stream s 04:33:27 and did I already tip my hat to the alexandria hackers? that is just such a hindsightedly obviously good thing to have! 04:33:44 lukego: lines from a file... well that's covered by the standard. 04:34:45 records from a DB, well most of the CL stream functions don't make much sense in that context, so i'd say it's a database-cursor object rather than an stream (in the CL sense of the word) 04:34:54 if you mean 'streams' as in generators, 04:35:07 or lazy sequences of some sort, 04:35:22 then you can look at SERIES or possibly CLAZY. 04:36:54 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 04:37:34 CLAZY? First time I've heard of it. 04:37:38 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:37:42 thanks 04:38:11 I'll start with my own simple protocol and see what options there be 04:38:30 this is read/write streams for pcap (tcpdump) files and related formats 04:39:38 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:56 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-33.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:27 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 04:41:25 -!- lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-216-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:43:56 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:46:58 lukego: i find it's always best to start with a simple ad-hoc protocol. If you find it a fit for another protocol, you already have the implementation! 04:47:09 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.103] has joined #lisp 04:50:18 quotemstr: if lukego meant 'streams' in the SICP/functional programming sense, then CLAZY is what he wants. CLAZY is actually quite cool... take CLAZY and add to it Pascal Costanza's stm implementation, and you've got all the interesting parts of clojure. 04:52:25 drewc: plus fset? :) 04:52:42 sykopomp: right :) 04:52:56 and some reader macros ... 04:53:11 and metabang-bind 04:53:13 and speaking of ... a non-interning reader would be nice too 04:53:19 *shudder* 04:53:36 drewc: why do you want a non-interning reader? 04:55:11 sykopomp: there are loads of good reasons, not the least of which being sandboxing. It's easy to write an interpreter for a CL in CL given a safe READ. 04:55:40 drewc: that won't sandbox CL :\ 04:56:29 sykopomp: huh? my interpreter is not a sandbox? that's news... how do i break out? 04:56:46 I dunno, can you use LOOP in it? 04:56:55 does it detect out-of-memory errors? 04:57:43 have you stripped out stuff like package access and provided an extremely limited environment? 04:57:49 yes, of course.. that would be the whole point of writing an interpreter, and why you need a safe reader. I control the allocator. 04:58:08 ah ok 04:58:18 no, packages are not limited in any way 04:58:44 I don't understand. How would limiting interning help? When does interning actually hurt? 04:58:45 it's a full CL save for filesystem access and the compiler, say. 04:58:45 so you can still have filesystem/socket/SBCL assembler access? :\ 04:58:51 huh? 04:59:05 sykopomp: do you know what an interpreter is? 04:59:14 oh nevermind, I misunderstood this whole thing :P 05:00:04 drewc: the interpreter's in the UCW sources? :) 05:00:50 quotemstr: i'd like to be able to use the reader to implement an interpreter... i don't want my interpreted symbols interned in the host lisp... because it's supposed to be sandbox. 05:01:10 sykopomp: that 05:01:12 drewc: But why is that interning actually a problem? 05:02:03 quotemstr: ok, let me put it this way.... i'd like the user to be able to define packages in my new lisp, and import/export from them. 05:02:50 quotemstr: when the reader encounters "(foo:bar 'baz:bat)", what happens? 05:05:03 lukego__ [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.110] has joined #lisp 05:08:13 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:42 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 05:08:59 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:09:02 drewc: thanks for CLAZY link, reading 05:11:12 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Client Quit] 05:11:19 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 05:13:33 so what might I need to install to get :sb-thread on osx? 05:13:35 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 05:15:35 lukego__: you'll have to tweak the 'customize-target-features.lisp' in your sbcl source directory. 05:15:42 OH. or do I have threads, but just not in *features*? 05:16:04 it must be in features if it's there, AFAIK 05:16:28 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.80.45] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:31 -!- lukego__ is now known as lukego 05:16:52 if it's not in features, but the package exists,something must be wrong. 05:17:22 I'm letting clbuild do the build for me 05:17:53 hrm ... i'm willing to bet it generates it for you then... 05:18:03 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.198] has joined #lisp 05:19:13 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:19:55 lukego: yeah, if you look in the clbuild script, it's already doing what needs to be done... you should have a threaded build 05:20:14 are you sure the build was successful and you're not running the old sbcl? 05:20:46 ! 05:20:57 sbcl now has threads by default on on x86s linuxes 05:21:02 I am running /opt/local/bin/sbcl 05:21:25 lukego: you should be using ./clbuild lisp 05:21:28 so perhaps sb-posix's unhappiness (couldn't grovel some symbols?) made clbuild declare the sbcl as not fit to use 05:21:53 drewc: I am 05:22:02 hrm 05:22:25 yeah, that could well be. 05:22:39 so now how to make sb-posix happy :) 05:23:10 that's the question innit. 05:23:44 i usually kill the sbcl source directory and have clbuild get the source fresh, and try again. 05:24:08 if that doesn't work, i grab a more recent SBCL binary to try and build with. 05:25:39 if that doesn't work, i checkout a release version of SBCL and attempt to compile it with itself. somewhere in there i can usually either track down the problem, or find a combination that works and forget out the entire issue. 05:26:07 somewhere out on the net there is a brilliant article on how to use git to triage sbcl bugs 05:26:12 nearly outta battery, will try from my bungalow in a few minutes :) bbiab 05:26:53 git bisect, that was the trick... 05:27:03 triage... that's not the right word at all... 05:27:19 *drewc* is doing too many things at once. 05:27:32 multicore machines help with git-bisect on sbcl 05:33:10 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.103] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:54 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-177-93.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:53 *holycow* thinks drewc is multthreaded 05:41:20 multiheaded? 05:41:33 hehehe 05:41:36 quite possible :) 05:44:35 -!- Guest81951 [n=swoog@66.51.248.210] has quit [Client Quit] 05:44:55 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.248.210] has joined #lisp 05:46:03 Ah, bisection 05:46:18 At least you guys have git. bzr bisection for Emacs is painful. 05:48:06 -!- csmerlin [n=cbuschar@c-24-6-216-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:48:22 csmerlin [n=cbuschar@c-24-6-216-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:15 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:56:15 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:01:14 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-31-206.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:06:20 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 06:17:07 -!- csmerlin [n=cbuschar@c-24-6-216-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:17:13 -!- fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:17:19 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-19-253.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:17:44 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-19-253.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:17:48 Good morning! 06:18:20 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-106.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:13 csmerlin [n=cbuschar@c-24-6-216-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:42 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:24:21 fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 06:24:45 rares [n=rares@174-26-90-76.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:01 -!- fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 06:30:15 drwhat [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:31 anair_84 [n=anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:46 chillywi1ly [n=danielb@cpe-65-28-61-156.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:27 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:33:36 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-90-76.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 06:33:39 -!- drwhat [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:34:12 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:46 lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.168] has joined #lisp 07:02:22 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.64.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:02:33 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-31-206.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:07:10 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.168] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:08:04 lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 07:08:08 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-31-206.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:08:56 -!- csmerlin [n=cbuschar@c-24-6-216-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:13:10 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:13:32 jmbr [n=jmbr@219.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:14:40 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:20:55 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.64.164] has joined #lisp 07:24:04 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.46.201] has joined #lisp 07:25:58 ; compiling file "/Users/lukegorrie/hacking/clbuild/source/slime/swank-source-file-cache.lisp" (written 10 MAY 2009 03:26:00 AM): 07:25:59 CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 9381(tid 140735080433408): 07:26:24 with fresh sbcl/slime from cvs via clbuild. any ideas? 07:26:46 I'm starting 'sbcl preloaded' which includes a bunch of stuff (alexandria, cl-ppcre, etc) but not swank. 07:26:55 'clbuild preloaded', rather 07:27:25 hm it works fine if I use 'clbuild lisp' instead 07:27:28 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.226] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:28:30 *lukego* tries a fresh rebuild w/ 'clbuild clean ; clbuild dumpcore ...' 07:28:37 lisppaste: url? 07:28:56 oh .. lisppaste is not working either with the +R? 07:29:00 minion: are you here? 07:29:01 maybe 07:29:10 minion: lisppaste? 07:29:37 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.226] has joined #lisp 07:29:45 scanning space for lutexes... 07:29:45 fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 9815(tid 140735080433408): 07:29:46 no size function for object at 0x003ef700 (widetag 0x0) 07:30:18 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@140.232.180.226] has joined #lisp 07:30:18 -!- syamajal_ [n=syamajal@140.232.180.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:30:21 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:31:51 I cut out hunchentoot usocket bordeaux-threads trivial-backtrace named-readtables, and now it seems okay 07:32:15 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:33:20 Hack of the day: destructuring-diff - http://paste.lisp.org/display/93823 07:36:48 why the (write-sequence (subseq ...) ...) ? 07:37:30 adeht: what do you mean? 07:37:36 is there a not-too-cheesy way to abbreviate defclass slot descriptions? 07:37:47 drewc: you can pass :start/:end instead 07:38:42 well, that makes it a lot harder to throw a PRINT around the subseq when you were debugging this, doesn't it! 07:38:51 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:39:37 lukego: "abbreviate"? 07:39:49 (didn't know you could pass :start/:end) 07:39:55 beach: like, fit in 80 columns even when defining accessors and initargs and stuff 07:39:58 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 07:40:07 beach: like with defstruct 07:40:13 lukego: 07:40:24 drewc: when you see `subseq' being used, there's a good chance you're doing it wrong :) 07:40:46 adeht: is there any real difference? 07:41:29 lukego: What drewc said. Put :initarg :bla on a separate line from :accessor bla. 07:41:42 beach: okay but that's a description of what I want to avoid, i.e. verbosity :) 07:41:52 drewc: subseq has to create a whole new sequence and copy the contents.. sometimes you can use nsubseq (not standard, but common), sometimes :start/:end.. 07:41:53 adeht: AFAICT, using subseq saves me two characters ! :P 07:42:04 lukego: It is hard to avoid that verbosity if you want all of those components. 07:42:16 adeht: ah, of course. 07:42:20 ok 07:42:25 *drewc* smacks forehead 07:42:48 lukego: avoid defining accessors, initforms and initargs for every slot... that helps. 07:42:59 lukego: Now, there are some people who want to use the same name for the slot and the accessor, and who want to derive the :initarg from that name. They sometimes use defclass*. 07:43:01 avoiding slots goes even further ;) 07:43:32 lukego: but we don't like those people beach is talking about.. you don't want to be one of them! 07:43:46 lukego: check out the various defclass* macros :) 07:43:56 lukego: But that's probably a bad idea in general, because for some slots you want initargs, for others initforms but no initargs, for some you want an accessor and for some others a reader, and you certainly don't want to export the slot name. 07:44:19 drewc: I'm currently a "yuck, I'll just use defstruct" guy, so defclass* is perhaps a step in the right direction :) 07:44:34 lukego: i'd prefer you used defstruct over defclass* 07:44:41 if all you need is defstruct 07:45:24 right now I'm tempted by defclass for the notion of inheritance i.e. methods that work on several kinds of structure types 07:45:44 that is a good reason to use defclass. 07:45:50 maybe deftype is the answer.. 07:46:02 no, methods do not dispatch on type 07:46:35 lukego: personally I just use defclass and get over it 07:46:55 lukego: defclass is not all that verbose compared to all the defgenerics it takes to do it properly. 07:46:55 adeht: I'll probably end up doing that too, but there will be some kicking and screaming 07:47:57 lukego: when doing a proper CLOS protocol, you should defgeneric all your accessors before even touching defclass.. 07:47:58 lukego: you may want check out michaelw's redshank in http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/ 07:48:03 now that's verbose! 07:48:32 adeht: skeletons? no thanks, I'm not a java programmer :) 07:48:40 lukego: this is a good thing, defclass is verbose because it's documentation about the implementation of the protocol. 07:49:08 lukego: I don't use it either.. I like to write my own code myself 07:49:10 I will write the code and come back to discuss experience :) 07:51:01 minion: tell lukego about defclass-star 07:51:01 lukego: please look at defclass-star: The end of the page was reached before a definition was found in http://www.cliki.net/defclass-star 07:51:23 lukego: even more important is come back after you've forgotten what it was like to have written the code, but are overjoyed while reading it that your DEFCLASS form so accurately depicts how your class is used :) 07:51:49 drewc: I try to keep my code short enough that I can just reread the program to see what it does :) 07:52:14 lukego: fair enough :) 07:53:04 lukego: FWIW, i never thing defclass* is a good idea. However, a define-my-class, whatever else that does, can define accessors and initargs all it wants... that's the right level of abstraction imo. 07:53:10 vng [n=user@123.20.82.5] has joined #lisp 07:53:10 think* 07:53:22 there's the "a" word again:) 07:53:33 I'm a forth programmer, remember :) 07:53:34 drewc: defclass* is just part of Hungarian Common Lisp :P 07:53:45 so of course it seems bizarre <_< 07:53:57 sykopomp: yeah, and that particular dialect makes me throw up in my mouth a little. 07:54:08 hehe 07:54:21 '(format nil "~:@c" (code-char 1234))' crashes the interpreter when entered on the slime repl 07:54:24 weird 07:55:44 i'll bet you your interpreter is fine, but something is not set up for utf-8 07:55:47 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:56 (i'm also willing to be you're not using an interpreter) 07:56:05 Good afternoon #lisp 07:56:13 Hello vng! 07:56:22 Hello beach 07:56:33 beach: how are you? 07:56:35 drewc: not using an interpreter? what do you mean? 07:56:42 RaceCondition: put (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) in your .emacs 07:56:46 and reload 07:56:52 cool 07:56:53 vng: Fine, thank you... after a long and complicated week. 07:57:01 vng: What about yourself? 07:57:20 RaceCondition: it's more likely that you are using a compiler, as you're probably using sbcl. 07:57:26 i'm fine too, thank you 07:57:31 drewc: yes, right 07:57:49 RaceCondition: and while sbcl includes and interpreter, you don't know how to turn it on ;) 07:57:54 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:55 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:58:09 drewc: how then? and does it have any advantages? like better debugging or smth? 07:58:33 sykopomp: thanks, now it works :) 07:58:33 vng: I hope the message to Bien was loud and clear! 07:59:15 but I wonder why PCL says that ~:@C shows you the kb combination.. maybe it's just in Allegro 07:59:28 RaceCondition: SBCL is a 'compile-only' implementation. 07:59:30 RaceCondition: i believe it's mentioned in the manual, and the advantages are that it's not a compiler. I've never used it, so i wouldn't know what debugging is like. 07:59:35 it compiles what you give it with great vengeance. 08:00:06 beach: I don't know why they send you the code that can't compile 08:00:07 OK, well, I guess I shouldn't be worried about it now/yet? 08:00:27 RaceCondition: you shouldn't worry about it at all, no. 08:00:28 vng: Yeah, very strange. 08:00:31 let SBCL do its thing. 08:00:37 RaceCondition: no, it doesn't matter to you.. just wanted to make sure you are using the correct terminology. 08:00:40 the interpreter save your some compilation time when you eval simple forms, methinks 08:00:56 beach: maybe they have some problems... 08:00:56 RaceCondition: that "interpreter" that you're referring to is usually called a REPL 08:00:57 drewc: well, I actually almost knew that :P 08:01:06 heh, that was some mutilated english 08:01:12 vng: If so, they should say so, and not pretend they don't. 08:01:31 i mean, technically, an interpreter is a compiler is an interpreter, so we could play with semantics all night ;) 08:01:55 beach: yes, they should 08:02:00 ephcon_ [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:09 although I guess the REPL is more something like read-eval-multiple-value-list-print-mapcar-loop 08:02:12 or something like that 08:02:13 btw I achived sbcl bliss by: 'clbuild compile-implementation sbcl' (bootstrap from installed binary, generates sbcl w/o working sb-posix) and then 'clbuild compile-implementation `pwd`/target/bin/sbcl `pwd`/target/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core' to rebootstrap from the result of the previous step. final binary seems to work fine 08:02:23 this is on snowleopard 08:02:54 vng: Actually, I say "they", but I think it is only Bien. 08:02:58 lukego: creative! :) 08:03:09 vng: I think longkid is doing fine now. 08:03:10 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-220-198.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:35 sykopomp: don't forget the part where it sets + ++ +++ * ** *** and / // /// 08:03:42 and - 08:03:45 beach: I agree with you 08:04:21 drewc: is there anything else? :P 08:04:53 sykopomp: i'm reading the clhs now, tell you in a minute :) 08:05:08 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-234-12.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:27 nah, i think that's it 08:11:58 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:13:42 quant [n=user@24.143.239.195] has joined #lisp 08:13:54 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:20:02 "signal proper error here" is very helpful error message 08:21:08 stassats: if you're the programmer who just caught that in your test suite before committing the code... indeed it is. 08:21:46 that was in babel 08:25:00 perhaps someone knows, but does common-lisp provide hosting for CL related site, and not necessarily code projects? 08:25:11 common-lisp.net 08:25:21 oh, i misread 08:25:25 ah ye. 08:25:37 common-list.net 08:25:37 but close, tech.coop 08:25:55 i tried to e-mail them, but it bounced back. 08:26:34 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@203.82.80.34] has joined #lisp 08:26:50 Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-141-243.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:27:06 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-48.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:27:34 did i misread twice? 08:27:36 doh 08:27:47 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:28:15 lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 08:28:17 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 08:29:52 the format of the FORMAT's format string looks a bit like a stack programming language 08:30:07 or am I fantasising? 08:30:36 i see no stack in there 08:31:17 stassats: maybe it's because directives can push stuff back 08:32:05 but it's not a stack, a fifo, maybe 08:32:37 the arguments are sort of like a stack I suppose. 08:32:48 foroh, well, it's a fifo stack then :P 08:32:54 I mean, fifo+stack 08:33:03 not that it matters really... 08:33:18 pretty cool though what you can do with FORMAT 08:33:32 arguably its readability is zero, but who cares :P 08:35:21 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-mmtwhydjidbjjzor] has joined #lisp 08:35:24 morning 08:36:17 hi beach, splittist 08:36:22 positional unnamed arguments are what i find mostly unreadable in format 08:38:14 stassats: seems like tech.coop is a paid hosting site. 08:38:38 -!- quant [n=user@24.143.239.195] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:39:44 lithper2: it is, it's for your personal projects, perhaps written in CL. while cl.net is for public projects 08:40:03 i see. 08:40:06 quant [n=user@24.143.239.195] has joined #lisp 08:43:57 someone should tell common-lisp.net people their e-mail is not working, perhaps it's temporary. :) 08:44:11 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:44:29 you can tell that drewc 08:53:38 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@203.82.80.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:49 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:00:02 -!- naten [n=naten@24-117-139-61.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:03:01 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:03:32 which email is that lithper2 ? 09:04:31 admin@common-lisp.net 09:05:27 prxq [n=mommer@f051160045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:05:38 hi 09:06:14 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-33-165.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 09:11:28 lithper2: i think that fixed it... mail is getting queued at least. 09:12:25 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:12:50 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:13:28 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:14:03 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051160045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:15:33 drewc: i don't need to resend it then? 09:16:25 lithper2: did you get a bounce message? 09:16:26 -!- quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 09:16:42 yes. 09:17:06 then you'll have to re-send it 09:17:45 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-31-206.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:18:17 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f757087.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:04 ok, thanks. 09:19:05 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:17 -!- quant [n=user@24.143.239.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:21:23 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 09:22:42 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-53-126.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:24:39 milanj [n=milan@109.93.24.34] has joined #lisp 09:25:47 nice to see that format understands :P, :D and :* 09:30:19 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 09:37:14 -!- ephcon_ [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:41:08 Norrit [n=Norrit@p4FED6CC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:19 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 09:45:19 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:45:21 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 09:46:03 -!- Norrit [n=Norrit@p4FED6CC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 09:47:34 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.198] has left #lisp 09:47:44 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.46.201] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:47:49 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 09:47:59 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.46.201] has joined #lisp 09:54:17 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:56:04 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:56:15 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:09 ttt--_ [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:00:14 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:00:25 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:29 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:07:42 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:16:00 -!- drwho is now known as linear 10:16:05 -!- linear is now known as drwho 10:22:00 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:40 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:58 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 10:24:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:08 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 10:32:14 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:32:54 lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 10:34:05 benny [n=benny@i577A110D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:50 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:37:10 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:37:41 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:23 adeht: hey I really like pack.lisp! 10:38:36 adeht: it would have saved me plenty of time before, but I was in too much of a hurry to really look :) 10:38:52 (it will save me a lot of time now though :) 10:40:56 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-48.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:41:12 cool :) 10:41:36 creating N threads which are run for, say, 1 second, doing nothing else than (loop (with-lock-held (lock) (incf count)) returning count, then taking the mean of all threads' count; is that a reasonable way to benchmark the performance of locking overhead? 10:43:24 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:43:40 -!- quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 10:48:01 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-48.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:48:12 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-48.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:53:47 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.46.201] has quit [Client Quit] 10:53:49 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.46.201] has joined #lisp 10:55:31 is there an easy way (in slime) to macroexpand a compiler-macro? 10:55:54 M-x slime-compiler-macroexpand-1 I think 10:56:41 lukego: (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "C-c M-") 'slime-compiler-macroexpand-1) 10:56:55 how embarrassing, I didn't think to M-x apropos 10:57:11 thanks guys 10:58:12 milanj- [n=milan@109.93.202.65] has joined #lisp 10:58:13 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.24.34] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:59:07 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:59:11 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 10:59:57 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@122.172.46.201] has joined #lisp 10:59:57 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.46.201] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:00:42 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 11:01:21 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:01:22 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 11:01:25 Alexandr [n=Alexandr@unaffiliated/alexandr] has joined #lisp 11:01:55 does lisppaste have a view-pastes-by feature? 11:02:50 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 11:03:10 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 11:03:49 <_3b> google for site:paste.lisp.org "pasted by * " ? 11:05:08 heh, guess that'll do, thanks :) 11:06:36 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:55 lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 11:10:59 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.55.199] has joined #lisp 11:12:58 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:10 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 11:17:44 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:04 lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:41 dline [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:41 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f757087.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:26:57 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f757087.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:51 gemelen__ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-48.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:28:04 -!- ttt--_ [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:28:36 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:31:01 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.82.5] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33:58 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-31-206.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:34:20 -!- milanj- [n=milan@109.93.202.65] has quit [Client Quit] 11:34:39 -!- [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-11-16.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:30 -!- dline is now known as drwho 11:36:40 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-141-243.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 11:37:39 canonical shorthand for (concatenace 'string "x" foo) ? 11:38:31 (format nil "x~a" foo) 11:38:55 (outs "x' foo) :) 11:39:09 erm, (outs "x" foo) 11:39:15 stassats: not quite, format won't signal an error if foo isn't a string 11:40:18 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:40:24 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-48.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:40:25 <_3b> neither will concatenate, if foo is a list of characters (different results there too though) 11:40:40 -!- gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-48.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:40:41 concatenate won't necessarily signal an error either.. e.g., foo = '(#\y #\z) 11:42:54 ok, a sequence of characters :) 11:43:36 will work with empty sequence too 11:43:39 adeht: where's #'outs found? 11:44:13 Phoodus: http://github.com/death/constantia but it's a hack 11:44:24 ah, k. I checked clhs, didn't see it 11:45:18 yeah, build up a format string with as many "~a"'s as there are parameters 11:46:20 <_3b> ~@{~a~} you mean? 11:56:44 Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:57:34 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:59:41 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!"] 12:01:49 ttt--_ [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 -!- gemelen__ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-48.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:09 x${foo} 12:07:29 cl-interpol? 12:07:43 or your favourite alternative 12:14:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:16:42 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12661.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 12:17:36 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:21:29 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 12:22:32 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit ["leaving"] 12:22:35 perhaps a stupid question, but what is the best way to validate the values you are storing in a class? 12:22:48 image I have a method add-foo ((instance class) foo) 12:23:02 do I validate the correctness of foo in the normal method 12:23:07 or do I use an around wrapper? 12:23:17 it depends. 12:23:40 where i can download pcl on pdf? 12:24:01 PissedNumlock: a before method 12:25:04 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:25:10 a before method cant prevent the normal method being called? 12:25:26 if the data is invalid 12:25:33 stream.lisp has some nice examples of before/after/around methods used for such things 12:25:40 (in flexi-streams) 12:25:55 PissedNumlock: it can signal an error 12:27:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 12:30:07 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:31:44 nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:32:09 -!- sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@122.172.46.201] has quit [Client Quit] 12:34:16 could a system equivalent to CL's conditions be implemented in a language with exceptions and continuations? 12:34:22 such as Ruby 12:35:29 RaceCondition: what you need is handler-bind, that is, the ability to run error handlers in the dynamic environment where the error occured. 12:36:07 oh, hmm, I don't think Ruby can do that, but well, at least you could restarT :) 12:37:12 RaceCondition: otherwise, notice that even handler-bind is not a special operator. Since there's the equivalent of unwind-protect in Ruby, I guess you could implement it, with enough wrappers... 12:37:27 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:29 PassingStranger [n=Horst@p54BF7268.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:48 pjb: great :P because I might get a Ruby job offering :P 12:38:10 so I have to know all the tricks to overheat all the other programmers brains in the team if I get the job 12:38:19 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:38:26 RaceCondition: notice that since ruby only has expressions, you can use parentheses! 12:38:50 pjb: what do you mean use parentheses? :P 12:39:04 RaceCondition: in my experience, you don't even need to use tricks to fry Ruby programmers' brains. 12:39:07 oh, I can surround everything with parens? 12:39:18 yeah, I'll do that 12:39:51 and I'll also use macros (I think there was an implementation for those in Ruby) 12:39:58 for even the most basic things 12:40:46 have a look at: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/browse_frm/thread/1dac84654bb962e8/40ef140362b2b8ba?hl=en&q=group:comp.lang.ruby+author:Pascal+author:Bourguignon+cons#40ef140362b2b8ba 12:41:37 RaceCondition: While not homoiconic, there's a way to encode Ruby code to Ruby arrays and symbols, and vice-versa. Just using that will fry them out. 12:42:20 pjb: I'm gonna have to figure out a way though to explain the usefulness of all that to them 12:42:33 (without getting f(ir|ri)ed) 12:42:41 The parentheses are great to edit ruby code structurally in emacs... 12:42:55 lol :P 12:44:02 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:46:33 lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 12:47:30 varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:48:47 pjb: what a nice thread 12:51:16 RaceCondition, the condition system can be implemented in any language which has closures and dynamic variables 12:52:04 And dynamic variables can be simulated with lexical variables and closures/objects. 12:52:15 what about globals? 12:52:48 Adlai: you also need tagbody/go, I think 12:53:51 tcr, true, handler-case and restart-case need to make nonlocal exits. 12:54:19 continuations? 12:54:20 tagbody may be implementable via labels, I forgot 12:55:46 hm no that should not be enough because a go unwinds the stack 12:56:01 I think you need one of the nonlocal exit constructs; labels alone isn't enough 12:56:25 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:58:11 benny` [n=benny@i577A28CF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:58:19 adeht: hm "error: Objects of type FUNCTION can't be dumped into fasl files." when I try to use UNPACK in a source file and `C-c C-k' in SLIME. should the compiler-macro be returning code instead of a # ? 12:58:26 adeht: which lisp are you using? 12:58:39 plutonas [n=plutonas@82-34-207-85.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #lisp 12:58:59 -!- Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:59 lukego: did you get the paste.lisp.org version or the gist.github.com version? 12:59:34 lukego, yes, compiler-macros need to return code 12:59:47 gist 13:00:51 lukego: it's supposed to have a load-time-value around the compile-struct-string then 13:01:05 -!- ttt--_ [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Success] 13:01:08 adeht: can you paste the latest version? 13:01:20 lukego: http://gist.github.com/266945 13:04:01 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:30 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:07:58 lukego: Ha, was there myself a couple weeks back 13:08:14 adeht: thanks :) 13:08:47 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:08:59 np 13:09:47 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:10:55 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:08 idiom for case/ecase with eql or equal? 13:11:35 case is with eql already 13:11:48 my case is trying to match on 32-bit integers. good thing I'm on a 32-bit sbcl or else I'd have my first lisp word-size portability bug :) 13:12:38 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 13:12:40 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A110D.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:44 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.242.174] has joined #lisp 13:12:55 criterion for identity in common lisp is EQL.. EQ is just an abstraction-leaking optimization hack :) 13:13:21 lukego: (alexandria:switch (foo :test #'=) ...) 13:13:38 alexandria++ :) 13:13:44 eq is used only in property lists operations and catch/trow 13:14:50 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A28CF.versanet.de] has left #lisp 13:15:06 benny [n=benny@i577A28CF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:56 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 13:17:08 hmm, actually looks like identical is "the same under eq", while same's unqualified criterion is eql :( 13:18:37 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:18:53 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.255.85] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:18:58 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:07 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:19:45 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:52 lukego: but `case' should do just fine, as stassats noted 13:20:28 oh! my bad. I asked case to match on (N) rather than N 13:21:34 you fool! 13:21:37 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:22:44 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:23 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:23:42 larry65 [n=larry65@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:25:17 :D 13:25:32 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:01 ttt--_ [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:29:03 :) 13:29:16 borism [n=boris@213-35-235-233-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:31:20 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:31:26 -!- borism_ [n=boris@213-35-233-194-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:32:02 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.55.199] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:33:07 knobo [n=bohmersp@noosbohknu.freecode.no] has joined #lisp 13:33:27 The question is fiveam or lift? 13:36:56 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:58 looks like the dokumentation for lift is better. 13:37:24 -!- larry65 [n=larry65@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 13:38:29 -!- dys` is now known as dys 13:41:08 rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@g225104011.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:45:29 varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:45:46 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:46:40 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:46:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:30 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:25 lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:48 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:03:57 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@82-34-207-85.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:14 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:09 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:11:15 nyef: Have you ever implemented your array-slice thoughts? 14:11:41 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:24 tcr: No, I haven't. 14:26:29 (G'morning all.) 14:26:52 -!- rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@g225104011.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 14:29:10 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:31 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:32:21 gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:47 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-31-206.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:34:50 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 14:39:51 ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-0-61.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:42:26 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:48 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:49 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:28 varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:49:10 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 14:52:03 If by 1% chance anyone here has lispworks 6 for Win32, I'd be interested to know if you can deliver an EXE, no matter how stripped, that will run on Server 2003 14:52:29 arwed [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 14:52:35 I have a minimal (do-nothing) program case, LW51 works, LW6 doesn't. 14:53:00 Have you asked LW support yet? 14:53:22 nyef: Yeah (weekend) - guess I'm eager to see it working. 14:53:27 Ah. 14:53:56 hi nyef 14:54:01 Hello fe[nl]ix. 14:54:41 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 14:55:07 So, looks like there's a week or so to go before I can check in what I've been working on for the past couple days. 14:55:12 Which means I can up the scope a bit. 14:55:27 What else should go into the sbcl internals manual? 14:56:00 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:57:02 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Client Quit] 14:57:52 beautiful diagrams? 14:59:40 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-110-49.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:59:51 I'm sufficiently lacking in clue as to how to make those that I'm leaving them out. Someone else can do them if they want. 15:01:17 include complete beginners :) 15:02:02 Complete beginners hardly belong anywhere near the internals manual. 15:03:15 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has joined #lisp 15:04:25 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 15:07:51 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 15:08:52 tensorpudding [n=user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 15:09:06 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:42 nyef: I'll read on the road and send any feedback in ~7h. 15:09:57 pkhuong: Cool, thanks. 15:10:35 I may not actually be here at that point, but there's no real rush since we're in freeze. 15:10:52 varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:11:17 (Actually, I expect to be gone from mid-afternoon today until tuesday morning, but at boston-lisp-meeting tomorrow evening.) 15:13:06 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:13 I don't have any particular objections to changes (additions, in particular) to the internals manual 15:15:54 Even during freeze? 15:16:50 varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:18:31 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:19:09 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:19:28 Given how scheduling is working out right now, it seems like tuesday or wednesday would be the earliest I could check this chapter in. 15:20:13 borism_ [n=boris@213-35-234-36-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:20:22 dl [n=user@c-76-113-113-75.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:10 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 15:24:23 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-235-233-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:26:21 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:37 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-94-108.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:26:39 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 15:26:47 sure, the freeze is for Do Not Break Things That Someone Else Depends On 15:26:53 it's not "don't change anything at all" 15:27:00 Okay, cool. 15:27:21 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C294.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:24 for example, if someone wants to fix and test that permissions problem in install.sh, that would definitely qualify for going in during freeze 15:30:09 akar [n=ghi@92.82.89.169] has joined #lisp 15:30:29 -!- akar [n=ghi@92.82.89.169] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:31:25 *Xach* fixes the printability of naggum articles 15:32:02 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:21 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:33:27 how do you check for eof on a (file) stream? 15:33:59 clhs listen 15:34:41 We're still +R, and specbot isn't registered. 15:35:15 who owns specbot ? 15:35:41 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-0-61.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:52 thankee xof 15:36:11 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_listen.htm 15:37:11 fe[nl]ix: specbot is part of lisppaste et al. 15:37:52 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:22 varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:38:31 Is CL's condition system really as fast compared to other languages as the chart midway down http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html suggests? 15:39:08 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:40:43 Adlai: It rather depends on what you're trying to do. 15:41:27 -!- dl [n=user@c-76-113-113-75.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:32 alley_cat__ [n=AlleyCat@p5084DE23.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:40 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.11.237] has joined #lisp 15:43:19 tensorpu` [n=user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 15:43:25 -!- tensorpu` [n=user@99.148.206.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:43 tensorpu` [n=user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 15:43:45 -!- tensorpu` [n=user@99.148.206.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:46 madsy_ [n=madsy@ti0207a340-1163.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:43:58 tensorpu` [n=user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 15:44:09 -!- tensorpudding [n=user@99.148.206.229] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:16 nyef, I guess that's always true, but I'd (naively?) expect an exception system which unwinds the stack right away to be faster than one that doesn't. 15:46:51 There's also the cost of -how- you unwind the stack to consider. 15:47:08 -!- madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-0477.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:47:22 what do you mean? 15:47:40 -!- tensorpu` [n=user@99.148.206.229] has quit [Client Quit] 15:47:41 CMUCL and SBCL both have cheaper unwinds than many C++ systems, at the cost of more expensive handler-bind and unwind-protect setup. 15:48:11 Basically, most systems these days walk the stack and check each frame to see if they need to do anything on unwind. 15:48:24 tensorpudding [n=user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 15:48:26 -!- arwed [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:43 CMUCL and SBCL instead have a list of things they need to do on unwind that is maintained as the program goes. 15:49:16 Thus, if there are a lot of frames that don't have anything important to do on unwind, they don't even need to be looked at. 15:49:20 I wouldn't trust a random shootout benchmark at all. 15:49:26 There's that. 15:49:38 Especially when the shootout link is dead. 15:49:49 But I can believe that Java's approach might have performance implications: They actually record the _entire_ stack trace in the exception for later printing. 15:50:29 Don't know whether Python does that, but if it does, forget about finding the handler frame, that's going to be noise in comparison. 15:51:07 For SBCL, there's been repeated investigation as to how to change to a mode "modern" unwind implementation, as it would make handler-bind and unwind-protect setup cheaper in the non-unwind (considered to be common) case, and would have benefits for debuggability (unwind-to-frame-and-call for -any- stack frame). 15:51:52 lichtblau, I think python puts the stack trace in exception. I know that Ruby does. 15:52:04 Another advantage to a "modern" unwind implementation is better interoperation with platform unwind libraries, which is important for good C++ and Winapi support. 15:52:46 nyef, would this "modern" unwind implementation make unwinds slower? 15:52:54 Yes. 15:53:05 Adlai: aha. Sounds likely anyway. Only if you run the handler on the stack (like Lisp does) can you get away with not recording it. 15:53:24 But it would make non-unwind code operations that interact with unwinds faster. 15:54:33 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 15:54:39 this SBCL backtrace has me very confused: http://paste.lisp.org/display/93830 15:55:07 No seventh frame? 15:55:15 (Well, eighth frame?) 15:55:21 lukego: i've also been afflicted with useless darwin backtraces 15:55:23 no, them's all 15:56:21 Nice :-) 15:56:23 Hrm... and no backtrace-from-context, which doesn't help. 15:56:34 nyef, would that change be a good idea? isn't it good to have fast unwinds? 15:57:23 ah. carpool out. thanks for the explanations, nyef and lichtblau 15:57:25 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["out"] 15:58:12 Adlai: If you don't unwind often but do handler-bind or unwind-protect often, then cheaper handler-bind and unwind-protect at the cost of more expensive unwinds might be a very good choice. 15:58:16 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:09 and what happens more often usually? 15:59:30 So, backtraces broken on darwin, huh? The sort of thing I might be able to fix, if it weren't for not having a darwin system... 15:59:53 lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 15:59:54 stassats: The general assumption is that unwinds are comparatively rare. 16:00:12 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:00:26 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:29 lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 16:01:17 That said, it's also the sort of thing that rather depends on your application. 16:02:01 And the cost ends up being proportional to the stack depth of your unwind, plus overhead. 16:02:56 Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:03:08 fwiw I get that backtrace when entering this at the slime prompt: (defvar *a* :foo) (loop for x in *a*) 16:03:14 So, how long has backtrace on darwin been broken, and is it in the bug database? 16:03:26 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:32 (usually I get a perfectly nice backtrace) 16:03:45 Usually being when you call ERROR directly? 16:03:52 Or BREAK? 16:04:17 Does this also apply when you (+ 2 nil) ? 16:04:38 erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:04:57 stassats: I suppose that in most cases actual unwinds are rare, except when using conditions for flow control 16:05:14 stassats: such as cl-cont, etc... 16:05:29 fe[nl]ix: Or a non-local exit such as RETURN-FROM within a closure. 16:05:37 Or catch/throw, or... 16:08:38 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.194.236] has joined #lisp 16:12:01 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 16:12:10 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:53 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:18:00 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:19:05 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 16:19:21 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:20:13 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:31 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229191058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:21:51 lukego: not here on linux-32 16:23:56 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:41 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has quit [No route to host] 16:28:01 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:08 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has joined #lisp 16:30:50 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:31:30 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:05 -!- erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 16:35:25 stassats: I'd like to see the images-in-slime-repl become a contrib. Does it fall into your interests as well? 16:38:35 tcr: The backtrace problem that lukego is seeing is specific to internal-error handling on darwin, due to the damage from unhelpful darwin signal-handling emulation. 16:39:50 how does clozure do it ? 16:43:06 I forgot the reason why the compiled file of swank-loader.lisp must be written to the same dir. 16:44:14 I install slime system wide and sometimes I forget to compile swank-loader.lisp. And thus normal users cannot use it. 16:46:35 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:08 tcr: not much 16:47:20 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:43 lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 16:48:27 ok 16:58:14 naten [n=naten@24-117-139-61.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:38 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:06:20 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:13:05 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-94-108.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:19:23 lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 17:19:31 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:19:32 fe[nl]ix: Clozure has a dedicated lisp control stack for each thread, and does an awful lot of its error processing in C. 17:19:34 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 17:20:58 (And clozure's platform unwind integration is scary at best. Not that SBCL's isn't also scary at best.) 17:21:04 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:40 Can you perform computed gotos in ANSI C? 17:24:55 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-94-108.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:25:45 akar [n=ghi@92.85.212.33] has joined #lisp 17:27:04 I think it depends on the computation. 17:27:12 Oh. Maybe not. 17:27:28 What damage are you trying to do? 17:28:02 jump table 17:28:28 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:48 There's some maniac option for jump tables in GCC, or you could use separate functions, or there's the "huge switch/case" option... 17:29:16 If you have separate functions, you just make an array of function pointers and call through it. 17:29:20 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:29:46 tcr: not in ANSI C, but gcc can do it 17:36:27 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:36:37 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:30 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 17:38:31 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:32 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 17:39:31 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:40:10 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:40:41 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:18 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.2"] 17:43:12 what, there are other compilers that matter? 17:43:26 -!- akar [n=ghi@92.85.212.33] has quit [Client Quit] 17:43:27 (and don't implement gcc extensions) 17:44:11 cmm, yeah, the other guys at work use this strange clicky gui thingy they call MSVC 17:44:20 cmm: Intel's, Sun's, pcc 17:45:12 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:45:15 fe[nl]ix: icc implements gcc extensions, the others I hereby declare as unimportant :) 17:45:16 cmm: the OpenBSD people are transitioning to pcc 17:45:36 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 17:45:51 felipe: OpenBSD I hereby declare likewise. :) 17:45:58 if they do it, I bet that netbsd and freebsd will follow 17:46:04 bah, bad tab completion, no cookie 17:46:09 Yeah, OpenBSD is irrelevant. 17:46:25 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:46:45 cmm: Apple is trying to switch to clang, but that probably implements all gcc extensions 17:47:37 Does icc support lexical closures? 17:47:46 does gcc? 17:47:51 Yes. 17:48:26 no idea then 17:48:42 Zhivago: by using nested functions ? 17:48:48 gcc's only has downwards funargs, though 17:48:53 you can't return a lexical closure 17:48:54 I think they just support whatever the linux crowd uses 17:49:02 They have dynamic extent. 17:49:06 fe: Yes. 17:49:08 Zhivago, right 17:49:40 Fortunately dynamic extent doesn't stop them from being lexical closures. 17:51:25 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.11.237] has quit [Client Quit] 17:51:50 tcr: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.1.2/gcc/Labels-as-Values.html 17:52:49 mwahahaha 17:52:50 http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.1.2/gcc/Constructing-Calls.html 17:52:59 __builtin_apply :D 17:53:06 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:53:10 hi, I'm using read-line to wait for a client to pass write to it's connected tcp socket stream. I can wait/receive the data fine, but I don't know how to catch if the so 17:53:19 cket becomes closed; it seems read-line does not throw that sort of error for the socket stream. 17:53:33 what's a nice way to do this? 17:54:36 egn: by default read-line signals a cl:end-of-file 17:54:42 or so it should 17:55:16 fe[nl]ix: hm, I'm handing end-of-file and it doesn't seem to catch it when I socket-close client side 17:55:42 egn: paste the relevant code 17:57:52 fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/93838 17:59:46 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:11 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:35 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 18:00:41 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:02:39 egn: are you sure there isn't more data in the socket ? even if the client closes the connection, the server won't get an end-of-file until it reads all data 18:03:06 fe[nl]ix: ah, possibly 18:06:44 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-164-161.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:23 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:59 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:28 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 18:14:29 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:59 Infamous_Cow [n=Chris@c-71-234-3-143.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:49 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f663cbe-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:02 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f665a40-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 18:44:20 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-158.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:48:03 -!- jamesstanley [n=james@82.33.61.156] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:53:56 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:54:51 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:36 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:07:32 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 19:08:31 Jabberwock [n=jens@port-93867.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:45 c.l.l amazes me sometimes... how does an idiot like that budden character spend as long as he has using lisp yet still have absolutely no clue what he's doing? It's not even entertaining... just sad. 19:09:36 Kill files grow sadly big... 19:09:45 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12661.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:24 drewc: [without having read the posts you are referring to] I am afraid this is commonplace in industry. We typically say that in the software industry people don't have 10 years of experience, but one year of experience ten times. 19:10:52 [and good evening everyone] 19:10:52 pjb: i like to avoid killfiles, as often the best responses are to idiotic questions... but in the case of budden here all he does is make me sad and angry, so into the bin with him! 19:10:56 beach: yes, but how could they do otherwise, always having to change languages and environments? 19:11:37 pjb: They could do what I have always done, i.e. taking one day a week for personal projects, including learning new languages and environments. 19:11:45 Lispers have some advantage: they don't didn't have to switch from one language to another for 30 years... 19:11:52 beach: I think i've been lucky in my career in that i've only had to replace the incompetents... never had to work with them 19:12:06 drewc: Congratulations! 19:12:42 well, preferring not working with idiots to eating went a long way in the early days ;) 19:12:51 pjb: Thay can do that because industry doesn't recognize a factor 20 productivity difference, so if you take 20% of your time for things like that, it will drown in the noise. 19:13:08 drewc: I admire that kind of courage. 19:13:21 drewc: Though, I don't know what you are referring to precisely. 19:14:18 beach: i wouldn't call it courage.. it's pure stubbornness... i'd simply rather starve then do something i don't want to do. 19:14:35 Which is why i'm a lisp consultant rather than a java employee, i suppose. 19:14:42 fe[nl]ix: there was data in there, that fixed it, thanks. although, what happens in the scenario where my client has written to the socket, but loses all internet connectivity? I would probably want to handle that case as well 19:15:45 drewc: I suppose. Personally, I have always made the cowardly choice, but then used subversive activities to undermine it. 19:17:07 drewc: Which means I work with a lot of idiots, incompetent and discouraged people. But that's a different challenge. 19:17:28 beach: i'm not sure i'd call that the cowardly choice. 19:17:45 drewc: You are very kind. 19:17:46 beach: if anything, it takes more courage and strength than what i did. 19:18:08 -!- Summermute [n=Summermu@c-68-55-123-182.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]"] 19:18:11 drewc: Well, I have always been very attached to my monthly pay. 19:18:17 :D 19:19:13 snearch_ [n=olaf@g224251114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:26 drewc: In my case, I think I am more effective in a position where I essentially can't be fired, so I challenge the system as much as I have the energy to. 19:19:46 beach: fair enough :)... it just wouldn't work for me... i'd flip out and pull a naggum on somebody quickly.... then when my 'supervisor' tried to 'discipline me' for it, id have his/her head too. So, regardless, i'm not going to get that monthly pay cheque :) 19:21:25 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:21:30 drewc: I see, yes. I admire people like you, but was brought up in a context where being a good student was important, so I try to satisfy that requirement while still not really being that "good student". 19:23:11 drewc: By "good student", I mean doing what is expected from me. But in fact, I am a rebel, and I often create lots of trouble in the organizations where I work. Though lately, I am more discouraged than before. 19:23:14 beach: well, fwiw i admire people like you. I'm sure i've closed a lot of doors and made some enemies i didn't have too, and i definitely did things 'the hard way'. Sometimes i wish i had of chosen my battles with a little more wisdom ;) 19:23:42 drewc: The world needs both kinds. 19:23:47 indeed. 19:24:46 drewc: FWIW, I admire RMS for his choices. I am not a radical as he is, but I think few people have his integrity and courage. 19:25:58 beach: What kind of trouble do you have to create in the university? I mean, wouldn't your action have to be directed rather to the external world, "teaching" it how to do things "right"? 19:26:04 drewc: I can admire people even though I don't agree with their particular position. But I think the world needs more people that act according to their convictions, rather than more complainers who don't do anything productive. 19:26:48 I have to say i admire RMS as well, even though i don't agree with a lot of his ideas.. and yeah, what you said. 19:26:50 pjb: I create troube in the administration, accusing them of not knowing elementary accounting principles, etc. 19:26:57 sepult [n=root@xdsl-87-78-102-131.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:27:09 -!- sepult [n=root@xdsl-87-78-102-131.netcologne.de] has left #lisp 19:27:50 beach: right. "administration"+"accounting" in the same sentence, you're really asking for trouble :-) 19:28:40 Well, as a tax payer, it looks like administrations shouldn't have any need for accounting, and have essentially infinite resources... 19:28:46 pjb: French universities (since 1968 as I have been told) are run by scientifically trained colleagues with no idea about economics, law, social interactions etc., and they have been acting very naïvely for at least the past 22 years I have been here, just giggling when I suggest some measure inspired by one of the three other countries I have lived in. 19:28:48 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:29:01 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 19:29:25 beach: the fact is that that wouldn't do them any good. 19:29:34 beach: they would have to be accountable first. 19:29:58 pjb: The individuals? Right! But collectively, we would gain a lot. 19:30:40 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:31:23 pjb: Things are complicated by the fact that CS is a new discipline, and I want the scientists (physics, chemistry) to show me their accounts, so that I can have a slice of what they thought was eternally theirs. 19:32:01 beach: well, CS has existed now for more than 50 years... 19:32:09 not here 19:32:46 pjb: And since I was trained as an engineer (and I know about accounting), I know I am right, and they are just wrong and thus defensive, things sometimes go south. 19:33:30 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-141-157-42-193.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:33:45 Seminar title: "Accounting for the experimental physicist -- how to get more physics from your budget" ? 19:34:27 Anyway, all this is boring, especially on a Sunday when I am trying to avoid thinking of my daily problems during the week. 19:34:27 I admire both of you 19:34:45 Ok. Have a good evening! 19:34:59 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:04 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 19:35:07 redline6561 [n=AndChat@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:19 pjb: Being on #lisp is already very positive. 19:35:23 -!- redline6561 [n=AndChat@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:46 pjb: Having done a significant part of my Vietnamese homework for next Wednesday is helping as well. 19:35:51 redline6561 [n=AndChat@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:06 pjb: And having had dinner with moore33 last night was pretty good too :) 19:36:41 Krystof: Thanks! 19:38:32 So one good thing I did lately was paying some Vietnamese students part time to work on Lisp projects. I am now happy to say that after a year of work, I have three reasonably good Lisp programmers who come here regularly and who like it enough that they would like to continue. 19:38:32 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@port-93867.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:24 That's great! 19:39:45 Yeah, I am pretty pleased. 19:40:37 beach: yeah, that is a very cool thing to have done. 19:40:49 They almost completed a Sudoku game (they chose it), and after that, we'll move on to something a little more sophisticated. I think it would be great if they could take on some existing project and help improve it. 19:42:05 beach: It looks like they can be convinced more easily to use lisp than French students. Or do I misinterpret? 19:42:49 drewc: I was inspired by the difference in salary. For 300 EUR per month, I get 3-4 half-time students to work for me. Now granted it is not really half time, and they do not have the background that I would get from someone on #lisp, but it is good that they get this opportunity to become part of the "Lisp community". 19:43:01 pjb: I think you are right. 19:43:11 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-131.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:43:23 beach: reminds me -- we at work have quite a mutant gsharp, but someone is effectively being paid to work on it at the moment 19:43:24 That's sad... 19:43:35 "effectively" because it's not completely explicit, but there's a project being done with it 19:44:11 Krystof: I can't tell whether you think that's good or bad, or whether you have any suggestions to make. 19:44:20 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C66E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:22 pjb: Which part? 19:44:39 That French students being somewhat reticent to lisp. 19:44:50 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 19:45:06 it's good. The suggestion is this, that I'd like to change the "official" gsharp repository to git 19:45:11 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-mmtwhydjidbjjzor] has quit ["Page closed"] 19:45:43 beach: That is excellent! It's truly a win/win situation for all parties involved, and could lead to significantly bigger opportunities for those students. 19:45:49 pjb: They are turning into engineering students who just want a job, but don't worry, there are enough students every year that become interested. I have a very nice group of 4 students working on Stamp this year, and they are convinced. 19:45:51 because for long-term mutant trees (like this is) which might eventually end up having useful work that's at least cherry-pickable and maybe mergeable, I think it makes it easier to publish 19:46:47 drewc: and I hope, for their country. If I truly believe that Lisp is better technology and if some people in Vietnam would agree, they could make a big difference. 19:47:36 Krystof: "publish" as in research articles? 19:47:52 no, publishing modified branches 19:47:53 beach: are the Vietnamese planing some kind of AI, Robotics, or Software national developments? 19:48:08 the issue is visibility of development, really 19:48:32 Krystof: Then why don't you just take over the project? 19:48:52 me? Complete lack of time :-/ 19:49:33 Krystof: No, I didn't mean you, but generally speaking the people with so much additional code. 19:50:10 ah. Lack of software engineering chops, lack of long-term commitment 19:50:20 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:50:30 they are hired to do a medium-sized project. There's no guarantee that they'll be around after that project ends 19:51:02 pjb: No plans that I can see, but Vietnam needs better productivity, more local projects, etc. and CL could be the key to beating the competition from even-more-low-cost places, while still being much cheaper than the US or EU. 19:51:31 I'm suggesting that the smallish technical change of "officially" moving to git will make it easier for me/you/us to integrate their changes, if there are any worth taking, at whatever later time we have time for it 19:51:50 Krystof: Sounds good to me. 19:52:02 ok, will announce a flag day on the mailing list 19:52:07 beach: if developers that are 1/10 the cost can be 10x as productive, there is certainly a huge opportunity there! 19:52:26 lisp + low cost of living is a winning situation :) 19:52:34 beach: is there any study of current software productivy in Vietnam (with numbers), that could be replicated in a few years when they've switched to Lisp? 19:52:40 drewc: while you're here: is there anything specific for git support on common-lisp.net that I can read? 19:52:46 *drewc* is considering a move to SE Asia 19:53:21 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-110-49.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:53:25 drewc: I am betting this yes, and I think I am doing them a favor by at least introducing this weird technology that *might* just make them original rather than bad copies of existing western technology. 19:53:33 Krystof: we don't have gitd installed AFAIK, so it's just basic git... nothing out of the ordinary. 19:53:35 ISTR there being something that needs doing to repositories on clnet to make them work "right" for http access. 19:53:53 nyef: that's true for all git repositories... 19:54:04 Fair enough. 19:54:15 this has helped me : http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2007/09/how-to-publish-git-repository.html 19:54:16 pjb: As usual, no. But it is quite low at the moment, due to lack of good training, and some cultural differences as well. 19:56:57 Krystof: i think we have gitweb installed, but i'm not sure how to add repos to it. However, i should probably learn, so if you need that please ask me. 19:56:59 twillis [n=willistg@cpe-65-27-233-147.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:20 Krystof: if you put a repository into ~user/public_html/git/ or /project/foo/public_html/git/ it will be picked up by gitweb and be available for download by http:// and git:// 19:57:43 drewc: ISTR that the git setup has a cron job for automatically scouring a couple places for new repositories. 19:58:10 and if people are interested, I was thinking of adding support for mirroring of external repositories 19:58:44 thanks 19:59:39 Right, I'm gone for a few hours. 20:02:54 -!- porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:03:46 pjb: I was thinking of officially announcing some FSF-lookalike in Vietnam, but I think I'll wait until we have something steady and reasonable going, and perhaps just wait for people to ask to contribute. 20:04:36 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:56 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:43 ramus_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-159-87.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:49 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 20:10:06 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:39 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-158.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:10:45 fe[nl]ix: oh.. we do have gitd? see, shows what i know. 20:10:53 ramus__ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-154-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:35 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 20:11:54 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 20:12:45 drewc: more likely you weren't paying attention when I announced it on #tech.coop, many moons ago :D 20:13:10 but I should prepare a message for users@common-lisp.net 20:13:19 with all details 20:13:58 -!- ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-157-47.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:14:08 -!- ramus__ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-154-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 20:14:25 ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-154-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:35 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f665a40-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:37 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 20:16:22 -!- ramus_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-159-87.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:16:52 -!- quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:17:17 francogrex [n=user@91.177.151.159] has joined #lisp 20:17:21 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:39 beach: there you go -- a request for maintenance on mcclim-devel; perfect for your Vietnamese students to learn about larger projects 20:17:56 -!- nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:11 Krystof: Thanks. 20:20:41 Speaking of which, the three that are coming here regularly, namely vng, maus, and longkid, could probably be challenged a bit at this point, i.e., asked if they would like to maintain this or that project. I think SBCL internals would still be a bit too hard, but something smaller, not requiring specific competence such as compiler theory, would be acceptable. 20:23:10 well, one thing for them to consider might be picking up open bugs in software they use 20:23:18 that's how I got started :-) 20:23:19 -!- redline6561 [n=AndChat@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:54 Krystof: Indeed, but they don't have the cultural experience to do that spontaneously, so they need to be guided a bit. 20:24:06 kclifton [n=kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:34 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:28 Krystof: it's a bit of a pain in the neck in the beginning, but I am hoping it will pay off ultimately for all parties involved to get them implicated in what we do. 20:26:46 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:28:27 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:00 -!- eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-164-161.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:13 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:30:52 andyl [n=andy@204.188.174.204] has joined #lisp 20:31:15 -!- kclifton [n=kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has left #lisp 20:31:35 kclifton [n=kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:55 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 20:33:52 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:52 -!- naten [n=naten@24-117-139-61.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:36 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:44:08 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:35 Krystof: I have no objections to going GIT. 20:53:35 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:54:47 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:29 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229191058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:57:22 I think it would be great to move McCLIM maintenance to Vietnam. 21:02:44 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 21:06:11 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:48 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.34.225] has joined #lisp 21:09:05 outsourcing the free volunteer labour to paid students! 21:09:08 the world is upside down :-) 21:10:42 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:10:46 where where ? 21:10:59 Summermute [n=Summermu@c-68-55-123-182.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:12 Axius [n=ghi@109.97.41.107] has joined #lisp 21:11:29 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:34 beach's plan for taking over the world one country at a time 21:15:00 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-16-44.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:15:39 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:15:43 Krystof: The world is strange indeed, but I am willing to defend my plan whenever you like. Right now, I am off to watch CSI with my wife. 21:16:23 -!- Axius [n=ghi@109.97.41.107] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:20:13 say "hi" from me 21:20:27 frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:10 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.34.225] has left #lisp 21:23:05 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-33-165.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:23 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.151.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:13 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f6622f8-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 21:29:17 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f757087.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:24 -!- PassingStranger [n=Horst@p54BF7268.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:09 -!- andyl [n=andy@204.188.174.204] has left #lisp 21:37:33 varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:37:50 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 21:44:27 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:46:27 -!- alley_cat__ [n=AlleyCat@p5084DE23.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:49:23 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:57 * (setf *read-default-float-format* 'rational) 21:49:57 RATIONAL 21:49:57 * 1.5 21:49:57 3/2 21:50:00 well, that was easy 21:51:54 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:55:12 drewc: what's common-lisp-beginner ? 21:55:34 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 21:58:29 why is SBCL's GC written in C? 21:58:56 sykopomp: there's a blog entry by jsnell from about 5 years ago that answers that question fully 21:58:58 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:37 http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2005-12-21.html 21:59:46 Krystof: thanks 22:01:36 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-46-95.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:57 * (loop for x from 0 by 0.1 to 1.0 collect x) 22:01:57 (0 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6 0.70000005 0.8000001 0.9000001) 22:01:57 * (loop for x from 0 by 1r-1 to 1r0 collect x) 22:01:57 (0 1/10 1/5 3/10 2/5 1/2 3/5 7/10 4/5 9/10 1) 22:02:19 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:45 porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:15 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:10:57 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:48 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:10 -!- frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:41 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-131.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:17:09 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 22:18:36 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:38 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C294.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:20:21 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:21:47 What's the best way to implement TAGBODY in an interpreter? 22:26:56 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:38 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-48.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:32:19 quotemstr: perhaps look at Lisp In Small Pieces. 22:35:05 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:39:57 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:40:23 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:42:54 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 22:42:54 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:42:57 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 22:43:02 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has joined #lisp 22:43:29 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-21-146.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:44:38 any recommendations which JSON library to pick? 22:44:47 they all suck 22:44:53 heh 22:45:42 they're both slow and bloated 22:45:49 well, yason isn't bloated, but it's slow. 22:46:01 if you just need a simple, dumb, slow json library, yason is pretty nice. 22:46:10 jason also returns adjustable strings 22:46:16 this is a gotcha which gotme 22:46:21 yason, you mean? 22:46:25 yeah 22:46:33 ugh :| 22:46:48 *Adlai* tried using the string-case macro by pkhuong, and it barfed on the adjustable arrays 22:47:02 (that is a complaint about yason, not string-case) 22:48:15 sykopomp: it's not a critical perf path for me, I need something that's maximally simple and easy to use for use with a trivial REST API 22:48:31 mathrick: are you trying to use couchdb? 22:48:34 nah 22:48:41 mathrick, I think yason has a nicer API 22:48:44 mirroring one site I use heavily 22:48:55 Adlai: aha, that's a valuable data point 22:49:10 Adlai: have you used all of yason/cl-json/st-json? 22:49:34 just the first two, and not that much, but enough to prefer yason 22:50:12 it's also trivial to get rid of the adjustable arrays, once you know they're coming 22:50:12 cl-json kind of assumes that you've started off just using cl-json imo. 22:50:24 because of the way it handles keys. 22:50:35 -!- slather_ [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has left #lisp 22:50:39 sykopomp: I'm not sure I understand what you mean 22:51:11 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 22:51:11 Adlai: does that actually influence anything I might want to do with strings? Which is, well, read them? 22:52:23 mathrick: it affects you if you want to use string-case :) 22:52:28 mathrick, not unless you really care about performance (or are desperately searching for a chance to play with string-case) 22:52:32 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:41 bah, sykopomp beat me to it >:( 22:54:06 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-31-206.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:54:38 what exactly is STRING-CASE? :) 22:54:50 like CASE, but for strings. 22:54:50 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:54 :) 22:55:44 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:56:09 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:57:10 oh 22:57:22 I have my own CASE* for that 22:57:34 I wonder if it also can get bitten by it then 22:57:43 mathrick: string-case is very fast. 22:57:45 -!- Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:47 Adlai: what exactly is the problem with adjustable strings? 22:58:02 mathrick: string-case makes assumptions about the string, I believe. 22:58:30 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 22:58:36 sykopomp: aha, CASE* probably isn't, it just expands to a COND with a bunch of (TEST VAL KEYFORM) conditions 22:58:47 yeah, no. string-case is fast :) 22:58:53 :) 22:59:13 -!- porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:08 *quotemstr* wonders what CALLF is good for. 23:03:44 mathrick, string-case is a case with #'string= as the test and literal strings as keys; it generates an optimized decision tree. The macroexpansion uses #'schar, which is the string equivalent of #'svref -- it only works on simple strings. This is good for optimization, but precludes the use of displaced, adjustable, or fill-pointered strings. 23:05:41 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g224251114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:09:19 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:58 -!- ttt--_ [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:01 tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 23:10:10 -!- Infamous_Cow [n=Chris@c-71-234-3-143.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:10:11 Greetings lispers. 23:11:48 SBCL devs, there is a question on cll about the memory limit in SBCL -> 'sbcl memory limit'. The author is experiencing a fatal error and the instructions for the remedy appear to be obsolete. 23:12:14 hey tmh 23:12:37 The author is using SBCL 1.0.23, so that is a pretty old version. Perhaps simply building a new one would solve the problem. 23:12:59 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-48.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 23:13:22 Hmm, maybe not *that* old. 23:16:30 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:18:16 quotemstr: anonymous modify macros 23:19:33 karlbennett [n=karl@mx3.youthnet.org] has joined #lisp 23:21:44 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-176-195.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:28:12 Fade: here? 23:29:52 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 23:30:09 test 23:30:21 Hello I'm very fresh to Lisp and I was wondering if I could please get a little help? I've just started to get into the condition handling and was wondering how you would handle an sb-sys:interactive-interrupt? 23:30:38 CTRL-C 23:31:31 karlbennett: _how_ do you want to handle it? 23:31:42 karlbennett: have you read the chapter on conditions in PCL? 23:31:46 Blkt [n=user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-225-179.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 23:32:46 karlbennett: you should probably not try to handle this condition. 23:33:00 drewc: Yeah I have read them, I would like to just have my app shutdown quietly. 23:33:10 karlbennett: in general do not handle CONDITION or T; just handle ERROR or your own subclasses of CONDITION. 23:33:50 karlbennett: other conditions, such as SB-SYS:INTERACTIVE-INTERRUPT may be used by the implemenation to manage the system, and interfering with them could break it. 23:33:58 I was using (handler-case ...) I'm guessing that is just for error types? 23:34:16 karlbennett: yes, ERROR and subclasses, and your own subclasses of CONDITION. 23:34:24 handler case will work here, but you should be listening to pjb 23:34:25 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:28 oh I see 23:35:27 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-94-108.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:43 Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:14 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 23:37:19 so what your saying is I should find a much more elegant way of shutting down my app ;) 23:37:55 karlbennett: yes. Like calling (sb-ext:quit) 23:38:44 -!- krumholt_ is now known as krumholt 23:38:53 well it's very early days and I was just hoping to have it handle CTRL-C nicely like day 'tail -f' 23:39:28 Couldn't you have a command? 23:40:15 well it's server so I really don't intend on providing any real user input :) 23:40:22 Fade: I left you a few privmsgs. 23:40:28 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-21-146.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:40:34 Fade: (I'll go to bed now.) 23:41:24 karlbennett: lisp servers usually run from within a screen or with detachtty so that you can connect back to their REPL and update or correct them live. 23:41:25 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-46-95.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 23:41:33 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:41:43 karlbennett: then you can easily call (sb-ext:quit) from that REPL. 23:41:48 I am also yet to look at how a deamon should properly run so really this was just a bit of a shortcut qustion. But the answers I got were very helpful. now I know not to play with that interupt. So thanks again for your help :) 23:42:07 karlbennett: have a look at http://www.cliki.net/detachtty 23:42:28 hmmmm I will thank you. 23:42:40 karlbennett: also see Steve Yeggues's features for a great system: http://paste.lisp.org/display/93855 23:43:04 karlbennett: of course, if you inherit the lisp REPL, you're all set ;-) 23:44:39 yegge? 23:44:43 or yeggue? 23:45:04 Yes, Yegge. Sorry. 23:45:05 fantastic thank you for the great info :D 23:45:46 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:46:37 I'm really enjoying learning Lisp because it provides you with a whole differeent way of thinking about how you would solve a problem. 23:47:22 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-150.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:48:47 A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing. 23:51:00 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-wquewvrpikizztaj] has joined #lisp 23:51:03 karlbennett: that said, it won't hurt trying to handle SB-SYS:INTERACTIVE-INTERRUPT 23:51:08 Adlai: string-case doesn't use SCHAR. It only uses AREF. The problem is a type declaration. 23:51:38 karlbennett: it seems that it's not being used by SBCL itself 23:52:21 pkhuong, ok, I misremembered it. 23:54:22 ooow ok then 23:54:34 so I've tried handling it like so: 23:55:15 minion, tell karlbennett about lisppaste 23:55:38 (handler-case (some code) (sd-sys:interactive-interrupt () (format t "CTRL-C~%~%")) 23:55:47 and that doesn't seem to catch it 23:55:54 finish-output 23:55:58 you need to flush the buffers! 23:57:28 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:58:37 lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:50 pjb: no, the debugger pops up 23:59:06 gn all