00:00:01 RaceCondition: european and american sleep cycles are evident. 00:00:07 *Xach* made a chart at one point 00:00:13 maybe people are busy coding 00:00:15 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:00:51 *RaceCondition* is reading PCL and trying to wrap his brain around `` and ,, 00:00:55 *Xach* is busy putting monkeys to bed 00:01:11 I'm coding, but I don't really count hehe 00:01:16 well was coding 00:01:41 that `` and ,, this seems more complex than it really is 00:02:12 Xach: instead of putting them to bed, give them keyboards 00:02:42 although they'll probably break the keyboards :P 00:03:11 why does SLIME keep the auto-completion buffer open even after me having selected a completion? 00:03:34 because you're not using the version of slime that comes with debian ;) 00:04:01 I should check out CCL and it's Cocoa IDE 00:04:16 that seems a bit more suitable for an OS X environment (at least for newbs) 00:04:23 my slime certainly does not leave that window open 00:04:50 drewc: does it make a difference whether I choose the completion using the kb or mouse? 00:04:56 RaceCondition, nested backquotes are dead simple. All you need is http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%2C%2C%27%2C%27%2C+lang%3Alisp&sbtn=Search 00:05:20 Adlai: yes, they are dead simple, I just figured it out staring at the once-only macro example in PCL 00:05:34 initially they seemed like a brain-twister, but it was just an illusion 00:05:37 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 00:05:38 RaceCondition: no. Are you using a recent slime and emacs 23? 00:05:44 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:05:56 drewc: 23, yes, and SLIME is what comes with MacPorts... let me see 00:06:05 macports? 00:06:06 how do I get SLIME version from emacs? 00:06:08 scary 00:06:23 is auto-complete different form symbol-completion 00:06:24 try the CVS slime 00:06:27 form/from 00:06:28 rahul: I believe it's a port/fork/whatever of some BSD port system 00:06:31 (or git, because CVS is horrible) 00:06:46 well, cvs is fine if you're not checking in to it 00:06:48 or just try fuzzy-completion... 00:06:52 RaceCondition, git://sbcl.boinkor.net/slime.git 00:06:58 Adlai: Yes, that really makes a huge difference in the quality of the slime checkout you get. 00:07:28 Xach, I know, it's amazing how far-reaching the effects of git are. 00:07:33 crypto [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 00:07:41 *rahul* beats Adlai with Guthur 00:07:41 Xach: if Adlai wouldn't have given me the git link, I wouldn't even have thought of installing the trunk version of SLIME :) 00:07:57 -!- crypto is now known as Guest42234 00:08:21 umm, glad to be useful 00:08:22 slime @20100113 <-- that should be pretty fresh? 00:08:56 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152206.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:07 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 00:09:21 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:09:43 well, it's 5 days old 00:10:01 so yeah, probably quite recent :) 00:10:10 OK, so I'm gonna stick with that for now 00:10:28 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:59 how does one find out the currently installed version of slime 00:12:24 oh nevermind 00:13:38 Guthur: where can you see that in Emacs? 00:14:00 i just checked the loading sequence it has the date 00:14:46 no M-x slime-get-version or smth? 00:14:55 oh nice 00:15:06 oh wait thats a question 00:15:10 yes 00:15:11 hehe I don't know 00:15:12 :P 00:15:22 RaceCondition, no, but there's M-x apropos 00:15:29 heh 00:15:53 slime-check-version 00:15:58 thanks adlai 00:16:06 RaceCondition: see, you asked for activity and look what's going on here :P 00:16:10 actually, I think you want the variable slime-protocol-version 00:16:15 rahul: yeah, that's what I thought too 00:16:18 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 00:16:21 Guest59956 [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:06 Emacs-side slime-protocol-version should match lisp-side swank::*swank-wire-protocol-version* 00:17:19 well, I'm gonna get outta here and get some food and go watch this awesome band from boston called KID:NAP:KIN 00:17:53 Adlai: I don't think that's why they're asking 00:17:57 It cannot be awesome: too many colons in token "kid:nap:kin" 00:18:03 heh 00:18:08 what is this.. #arc? 00:18:14 :) 00:18:20 lisp 2010 00:18:36 all about the namespaced package names 00:18:38 how abotu #lisp-with-hierarchical-packages-without-dots 00:18:50 -!- Guest59956 is now known as Khisanth 00:18:50 no no, hierarchy is orthogonal 00:19:39 this is the symbol KIN in the package named NAP in context of the package KID 00:19:41 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:46 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:56 package-local nicknames 00:20:26 anyway, y'all can implement that while I'm off rocking out to then. 00:20:27 them 00:20:41 why are heirarchical packages bad? 00:20:49 I probably should become a little more up to date with my slime 00:21:05 although they seem like little more than a convenient naming convention, come to think of it 00:21:22 Ralith, who says they're bad? 00:21:40 Adlai: the response seemed generally mocking. 00:21:41 potentially missing context: Arc uses the foo:bar:baz syntax for something wholly unrelated. 00:22:29 and I slightly mocked Allegro CL's hierarchical packages that use periods, so they have names.like.these 00:22:46 doesn't gigamonkeys do that too? 00:23:14 gigamonkey.was.once.JavaMonkey ; 00:23:15 remains from javamonkey 00:23:15 also I don't think it's reasonable to call them heirarchical until you have things like relative package names 00:23:19 ah. 00:23:20 drewc: :) 00:23:33 It did seem very javay. 00:23:34 adeht: i'm faster! :) 00:23:44 what with the whole org. prefix 00:23:57 Ralith, that's not a hierarchical package name, it's just a naming convention 00:24:03 is there a way to use common lisps random number facilities to build a random-sequence-generator where i can specify the seed or at least reinitialize the seed to a previously known value? i think i would need to copy the result of (make-random-state), is there a (portable) way to do this? 00:24:19 Adlai: that's my point 00:24:20 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 00:24:28 -!- davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:24:46 timor: are you sure you need to *copy* the result? 00:24:46 timor: make-load-form might be portable enough. 00:24:47 timor: make-random-state can take a state 00:26:08 (if you're only considering a single image, you can just copy states with make-random-state) 00:26:22 Ralith: if i dont, the state will be modified and i cannot restore it 00:26:48 Ralith, in my hierarchical package system pony, (find-package 'foo:bar) and (find-package 'baz:bar) would are distinct, and when *package* is (find-package 'foo), then (find-package 'bar) would return the same as (find-package 'foo:bar), or something along those lines 00:26:55 *Adlai* hasn't thought about this that much. 00:27:11 Adlai: yes, that's relative names. 00:27:39 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:42 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14212.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:28:11 adeht: that was exactly what i needed to know, thank you 00:30:09 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:43 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:26 alexbobp_ [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 00:37:18 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:06 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:47 -!- alexbobp_ [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:41:01 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.95] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:41:17 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:44:41 why does ``(1 2 ,a) evaluate to `(,1 ,2 ,A)? why do the 1 and 2 also get the comma prefix? 00:45:01 it doesn't change the results but still 00:45:09 I'd like to see the reason behind that 00:45:09 Really, it's implementation dependant. 00:45:16 ok, that's what I figured... 00:45:29 (let ((a 'x)) ``(1 2 ,a)) --> (LIST '1 '2 A) 00:45:38 #+clisp 00:47:15 pjb: The variable A is defined but never used 00:47:25 Yes. 00:47:33 so? 00:47:41 That's because the comma is taken by the closest backquote. 00:47:51 but how's that related to my question? 00:48:14 chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has joined #lisp 00:48:23 It's not. 00:48:25 or you're just explaining how the ` and , stuff works? 00:48:47 #+clisp ``(1 2 ,a) --> (LIST '1 '2 A) 00:48:57 is what I meant. 00:49:18 and it's still not related to my question? :P 00:49:20 somehow, (make-random-state t) doesnt seem to really create a fresh randomized state on my sbcl 00:49:32 But (list '1 '2 A) is equivalent to `(,1 ,2 ,A) : they give the same result when evaluated. 00:49:36 I'm loading a system in the repl, but I can't use any of the operations exported by the different packages... can someone give me a hand? 00:49:59 RaceCondition: You can find the exact 'why' by reading the source of your implementation. 00:50:12 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [] 00:50:40 chiiph: have you called use-package? 00:50:45 RaceCondition: there's probably a normalization phase, where 1 is found to evaluate to 1, so that it can be inserted as ,1. 00:50:51 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:52 pjb: so basically it might as well give me ``(1 2 ,a) -> `(1 2 a) but just for some reason it's giving the equivalent `(,1 ,2 a)? 00:51:09 chiiph: prefix the name of the page before the symbol you want to use, or use-package 00:51:12 pjb: yes, that's what I thought, but is ,1 in any way better/more optimized? 00:51:18 RaceCondition: But that doesn't _mean_ anything. The semantics is that it returns a form, which when evaluated, builds a list that is equal. 00:51:39 There's no point in searching the why of an implementation detail. 00:51:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:51:57 pjb: yeah, I figured that out, I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything because it's sure a lil' bit confusing for a newbie 00:52:01 chiiph: oops, i meant package instead of page: package:symbol 00:52:12 RaceCondition: optimization too is irrelevant. 00:52:24 cools and timor: thanks, that's what I was missing :) 00:53:00 RaceCondition: perhaps it allows to write a function with one test less, making it more beautiful. 00:53:10 dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:53:12 RaceCondition: again, if you really want to know, read the sources of your implementation! 00:53:16 pjb: OK 00:53:19 I don't 00:53:19 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:54:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:01:09 while running cl-gtk2 + ccl on xp, clozure only finds the gtk+ libraries if they are in the same directory as the clozure exe and image. but so i need to screw the whole directory hierarchy of gtk+ and copy all the files to home dir of ccl one by one. how can i make ccl search for the needed files recursively in a directory and the subdirectories 01:04:09 (directory "/some/dir/**/file") searches recursively the files named file in the subdirectories of /some/dir/. 01:04:27 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["lisp monster needs food"] 01:05:34 Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:43 -!- coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:06:02 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 01:06:22 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-47.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:06:27 pjb: but i should probably need a global variable to hold the dirs that should be searched, just like asdf:*central-registry* 01:07:00 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:07:07 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:07:22 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 01:07:27 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:07:34 kooll [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:42 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 01:07:57 gibranian: I don't know how cl-gtk2 works. Perhaps there's such a variable. Or perhaps it relies on CFFI? IIRC, there's a variable in CFFI for the paths of the directories where to find the libraries. 01:08:11 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:08:35 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:08:35 In any case, the functions using these variables don't search recursively usually, so you better put all the subdirectories in them. 01:09:48 is there a way to "serialize down" functions and other stuff defined/evaled in the REPL to a .lisp file? 01:10:03 i.e. without having to recall+copy+paste their definitions? 01:10:09 clhs dribble 01:10:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm 01:10:49 pjb: I mean, not everything but just single items 01:10:50 pjb: cffi:*foreign-library-directories* ? 01:11:05 RaceCondition: also see IBCL http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 01:11:05 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:16 gibranian: yes. 01:11:37 RaceCondition: you can copy and paste later from the dribble file. 01:12:08 RaceCondition: however, usually, you just edit a lisp file in the editor, and send the forms from the editor to the lisp image. 01:12:16 RaceCondition: See emacs, slime, etc. 01:12:18 pjb: yeah, I'll just stick to that 01:12:41 pjb: I am using emacs and SLIME if that's what you were referring to 01:12:57 pjb: ok, now i'll try to move all the gtk files in a specific directory and then add the name of the directory to this variable, then if it works, i think writing a function that adds all the subdirectory paths recursively to this variable should work 01:13:20 Yes. 01:13:28 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:13:41 RaceCondition: Good, so you should already have the source in a .lisp file ;-) 01:14:29 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 01:14:34 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 01:15:23 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 01:17:16 pjb: yeah, but I sometimes do stuff on the REPL so I thought it'd be nice to simply tell slime to take that function and write it down as the last item in a .lisp file 01:17:34 pjb: assuming the source is not discarded after compilation, of course 01:17:57 Spaghett1ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:47 RaceCondition: you could indeed write such a command in emacs. Also, IIRC, there's some "history" stuff in slime/swank. 01:19:06 But you'll have to search it yourself, I don't know slime very well. 01:19:16 pjb: you don't use SLIME? 01:20:27 IBCL looks cool though, how does it interact/integrate with version management though? it doesn't? or you just keep the image itself under version management somehow? 01:20:33 qbg [n=chatzill@x-146-57-84-115.mrs.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 01:20:56 Yes, it doesn't keep versions. But it would be easy to add it. 01:21:14 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-159.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:23 would that be comparable to anything what git offers? 01:21:34 or it would just be simple version management for a single developer 01:21:43 Well the point is to write out the sources in a file. Like an afterthought dribble if you will. 01:21:48 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:04 pjb: what do you use yourself though if not slime? 01:22:11 It would have to be improved a lot to make it a good image based developement environment. 01:22:18 emacs + inferior-lisp. 01:22:41 pjb: so you don't need the features slime offers or you use something else? 01:22:57 pjb is weird. :) 01:23:19 or if you have inferior-lisp, would slime really only give you just the over-the-wire thing mainly? 01:23:43 just trying to get a bigger picture 01:24:03 rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 01:24:25 Well, indeed, since I use clisp which has a very good debugger included, I don't need slime. sbcl users rely on slime to get a user friendly debugger... 01:25:15 Spaghett2ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:19 will keep that in mind 01:25:54 and you simply don't do live/hot deployments (or whatever the official term is for that)? 01:26:03 On the other hand, on the rare occasions I tried to use slime, it has been more often the source of problems than a solution... 01:26:21 so why did you tell me to use it? :P 01:26:37 Well, for live/hot deployments, something like screen or detachtty is more important than slime. 01:26:47 RaceCondition: are you using clisp? 01:27:08 pjb: no, sbcl, I was clisp initially, but I went with sbcl as I saw most people are using it 01:27:14 skeptical_p [n=rondev@bzq-109-67-7-24.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:16 slime is worse than useless with clisp 01:27:36 sbcl debugger is awful. You need slime to debug in sbcl... 01:27:40 it is more than a debugger as well 01:27:55 and one of the reasons people use sbcl is because of licencing? 01:28:08 I like GPL :-) 01:28:46 but surely thats not an issue unless you want to distribute your own version of clisp 01:28:53 I like gpl too, but I think sbcl is a fine compiler. 01:29:01 I can understand that academics may prefer a BSD or MIT license, since they're already paid, but I'm a free-lance, so I prefer the more capitalistic GPL. 01:29:18 *Fade* chuckles 01:29:22 GPL is more capitalistic? 01:29:22 Fade: oh, sure. When I need faster execution, I compile my programs with sbcl too. 01:29:28 RaceCondition: Yes. 01:29:40 slime + ccl is also very nice. 01:29:55 pjb, you _do_ like the GPL a lot... I noticed that even your brainfuck vm is GPLed :P 01:30:21 http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/editorials/gpl_capitalist.html 01:30:22 brainfuck vm? is that of any use to anybody besides entertainment? :P 01:31:02 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:31:09 as i understand it, brainfuck is turing complete. 01:31:12 we go BSD/public domain... if anyone wants to make money on stuff we've made, then they'll end up making us profit in one way or another anyway. and the chance of them operating on the same market we are is rather tiny... 01:31:32 RaceCondition: eventually, I'll have a CL implemented over the BF VM :-) 01:31:35 turing completeness is obsolete 01:31:44 pjb: why? as a hobby? 01:32:10 Because it's funny. 01:32:24 "My pet language is turing complete" "ok, write a function that computes the Nth fibonacci number and emails it to me" 01:32:26 pjb: what do you write the bf vm in? CL? 01:32:47 Indeed. 01:33:15 has anybody written a bf interpreter in bf yet? 01:33:21 Phoodus, of course 01:33:30 yeah, shouldn't be too hard 01:33:34 Adlai: that's lame. sending the e-mail over n hops where n is the fibonacci number you wanted would be damn cool 01:33:38 ;-) 01:33:55 heh 01:34:00 Phoodus, http://code.google.com/p/awib/ 01:34:00 why not just implement CL in assembly? wouldn't that be as fun? or would it be even more of a bf? 01:34:06 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-39-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:35:08 -!- Spaghett2ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:35:49 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-46-135.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:35:52 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:35:59 GPL is less capitalist and more "If I can't make money off this, then neither can you!" 01:36:00 pjb: the fact clisp is GPL has no direct bearing on your software though, correct? 01:36:39 Guthur: indeed. clisp is GPL because its authors decided so. My software is GPL because I decided so. I'm not an author of clisp. 01:36:59 pjb: or because of readline... 01:37:11 -!- Spaghett1ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:37:26 just wondering because the fact lisp can eval, does that mean in some way clisp is with your software? 01:37:40 never really thought about this before so I could be way off 01:37:44 Well, most of my CL code is portable and independant of other libraries, so I get to choose the license. 01:37:49 (insofar as the GPL ever stopped anyone from making money) 01:38:12 Guthur, I'm not sure if it's exactly the issue you're talking about, but you may find it interesting to read about Franz's LLGPL license. 01:38:43 I think the legal rule of thumb with the GPL is that if you can theoretically easily swap out the GPL code for some other code without modifying your code, you're in the clear. 01:38:48 what would happen if I violated the GPL? who would know? 01:38:50 as far as viralness. 01:38:56 is it just a matter of personal ethics and morale? 01:38:57 IANAL ofc. 01:39:34 RaceCondition: if you ever want users, then you'd better respect it. 01:39:43 RaceCondition: the people to which you distribute the software would know they don't have the source... 01:40:18 pjb: and if I don't distribute anything, it doesn't matter? 01:40:26 RaceCondition: if you're thinking about compilation, it's easy enough to find out whether a binary comes from a given source. 01:40:30 I mean, if I just set up my own sites and that's it 01:40:40 RaceCondition: GPL allows you to do whatever you want, as long as you don't distribute anything. 01:40:58 you mean distribute anything without source? 01:41:00 Yes, GPL was designed before the advent of the web. 01:41:43 i think the general tendency away from the gpl among cl users is due to the deployment strategy used for lisp systems. 01:41:51 running and linking etc. 01:42:03 RaceCondition: it's easy enough, there's an OR. Either you don't distribute anything and you do whatever you want in your corner, OR you distribute the the software and the sources. 01:42:22 that's a XOR, actually 01:42:27 pjb: yeah, I get it 01:42:34 pr: no, because you can do both. 01:42:54 pjb: distribute and not distribute at the same time? 01:43:03 Yes. Different copies. 01:43:12 pjb: well, my definition of xor = either or 01:43:13 ;) 01:43:25 Right. 01:43:27 so per project it's XOR, but per developer, it's OR :P 01:43:30 just trolling, nvm :) 01:48:58 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:14 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:52:13 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:36 -!- kooll [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:53:04 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:57:19 the auto-compl window only stays open when selecting with mouse 01:57:34 which is still annoying though... 01:58:13 -!- qbg [n=chatzill@x-146-57-84-115.mrs.umn.edu] has left #lisp 01:58:40 -!- dabd [n=dabd@a85-139-104-188.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:49 jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:01:45 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:02:44 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:02:51 -!- jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 02:02:58 jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:04:23 ',f is the same as ``,f? 02:04:37 ',f is invalid. 02:04:43 You cannot have a comma without a backquote. 02:05:14 weird, PCL examples have it... but that's probably because it's all inside a wrapping backquote 02:05:30 OK, then `',f = ```,f? 02:05:47 damn, no, forget it, I'm an idiot 02:05:50 No. There's one more quote on the right. 02:06:07 I failed to interpret the code correctly :P 02:06:57 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:51 -!- jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has left #lisp 02:11:21 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:15:32 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 02:19:04 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:24 Bobrobyn_ [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:11 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:09 -!- Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:23:07 -!- khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:26:38 oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:54 gbomo [n=dkd@71.108.226.38] has joined #lisp 02:35:48 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:08 emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:36 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:37:51 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:41:10 -!- jbomo [n=dkd@71.108.226.38] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:43:41 -!- qizwiz [n=user@74-95-82-238-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:45:18 oy #lisp 02:45:32 I have three packages 02:45:37 in one project 02:45:48 all of which need the same nontrivial utility code 02:45:54 what is the best place to put that utility code? 02:46:02 (this utility code being something that should not be exported) 02:46:05 -!- khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:46:34 maybe a fourth package 02:47:01 that was my instinct 02:47:05 my-system-a, my-system-b, my-system-c, and my-system-utils 02:47:11 +% 02:47:56 -!- trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:48:38 too many packages spoil the lisp soup 02:49:57 rme, I thought lisp was oatmeal, not soup 02:50:06 soup goes terribly with fingernail clippings 02:51:41 its more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okonomiyaki 02:52:06 can packages export symbols exported by :use'd other packages? 02:52:33 what? 02:52:38 Ralith: i think you don't need that 02:52:39 oh, yeah, they can. 02:52:52 clhs defpackage 02:52:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 02:53:05 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:53:06 Ralith: oh sorry, you need that, my mistake, yes they can. 02:53:20 Ralith, pay attention to the order in which the options are executed 02:53:27 'kay 02:54:00 since exporting happens at the end, you can export symbols from used packages 02:54:45 One of my favorite quotations from Coders at Work: "Well, my description of Perl is something like looks like it came out of the wrong end of a dog. I think Larry Wall has a lot of nerve talking about language design..." (L. Peter Deutsch) 02:55:38 Adlai: that has nothing to do with it 02:56:23 the order is arbitrary 02:56:48 adeht, how so? if the other packages didn't get used first, then exporting the symbols would create new symbols inside the package being defined, and you'd get a symbol conflict when the other package got used 02:56:54 ... and the order is not arbitrary. check the spec. 02:57:20 Adlai: are you saying the defpackage form gets read in the package it defines? :) 02:57:41 what makes you think I said that? 02:58:11 argh, this is not working at all 02:58:29 oh right 02:58:30 export 02:58:33 I'm looking at this CLOS tutorial , and I can't figure out how to "rewrite set-point-values using with-slots". 02:58:34 Adlai: ah, I understand what you meant.. sorry 02:59:15 aidalgol: did you understand what with-slots is doing? 02:59:25 Adlai: I thought about the order of the subforms 02:59:40 In short, how do I use with-slots within a function that has arguments with the same names as the slots? 03:00:07 do you know if closure web browser has integration with clim listener, i mean does closure add an "browse" option to the html files shown in the show directory command of mcclim listener? 03:00:08 stassats: Yes, it's variable name conflict that I'm having trouble with. 03:00:27 adeht, no harm no foul, but thank you for the apology 03:00:31 you can (with-slots ((variable-name slot-name)) object) 03:00:45 gibranian: that sounds like the sort of thing that clim-desktop does 03:00:50 (Sorry if I'm not using terms correctly.) 03:01:04 gibranian: (if closure doesn't do it already; I have no idea) 03:01:24 gibranian: even if it does, closure isn't currently in a usable form 03:01:25 stassats: Oh, OK. :) 03:01:30 aidalgol: you can just rename the arguments! 03:01:45 even better, rename the slots 03:02:09 stassats: hmm, it seems to be the whole mcclim based application set and mcclim itself is facing abandonment 03:02:45 gibranian: it's not abandoned, rather nobody has enough time to support it more 03:03:33 I was confused, because the example use of with-slots was in the form (with-slots (slot-name) ...) 03:03:46 Now I can do this. 03:03:48 clhs with-slots 03:03:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_slts.htm 03:03:52 Thanks! 03:03:55 complete description 03:04:44 Wow, that's way better than the reference I was using. 03:05:43 stassats: i mean people seem to be considering other options than mcclim as interface for their applications 03:05:56 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:06:03 -!- oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:06:41 gibranian: perhaps they're more familiar with other toolkits, or are upset about unpolishness of mcclim 03:10:25 stassats: i am sorry, my english is not enough sometimes, do you mean the look of it's graphical interface by unpolishness? i am considering to prepare some nice styles for it but i don't know if this is the real problem, do you think nice look alternatives would make mcclim more popular among the cl developers? 03:11:03 gibranian: i mean it's sometimes buggy 03:11:16 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:11:42 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 03:11:56 hmm, i see, yes, this seems to be true, it is not very stable. 03:14:30 stassats: IIRC i've seen critics about clim being hard to get used to, that's why i didn't consider learning it for a long time, but one week ago i decided to try it and i was surprised, it made me think exactly otherwise. 03:15:21 i had somewhat similar experience 03:17:35 (defun set-point-values (point x y z) 03:17:35 (with-slots ((old-x x) (old-y y) (old-z z) point) 03:17:35 ((setf old-x x old-y y old-z z)))) 03:17:43 What's wrong with that? 03:17:55 aidalgol, too many parentheses 03:17:58 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hwckjhvtjrvatfsd] has joined #lisp 03:18:03 1. you shouldn't paste here 2. what Adlai said 03:18:28 I thought three lines was OK. 03:18:32 Sorry. 03:18:46 only one line is ok 03:18:53 look at the arglist of with-slots again, you have 'point' in the wrong place. The other paren error is "left as an exercise to the reader". 03:19:32 OK, thanks. 03:19:53 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:23:44 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:30 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:27:19 Do some dialects let you define a variable with the set functions? 03:27:57 That is, not require a (defvar variable) before (setq variable ...) 03:28:36 is it that hard? 03:28:52 and you can (defvar variable value) 03:29:01 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:45 Is what that hard? 03:30:05 using defvar before setq 03:30:19 afair, clisp lets you get away with that 03:30:34 Some will make an implicit defvar. 03:30:36 I was aking because I'm looking at an example interactive session that never shows defvar used. 03:30:42 Phoodus, not quite -- it creates global lexicals 03:30:47 you could defparameter and kill two birds with one stone. 03:30:48 Others will end up producing a weird kind of global lexical. 03:31:00 *asking 03:31:13 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:31:15 So, if you care about portability you shouldn't do that. 03:31:25 but just playing around on the repl is fine 03:31:36 in fact, I'm doing that right now ;) 03:31:40 Ah. 03:31:43 (setf a (my-test-function-blah...)) 03:32:06 just so I can retain the value from the repl 03:32:13 the "setf a" never appears in my source code though 03:32:35 You could safely replace that with defparameter. 03:32:44 why bother? 03:33:06 Why bother looking before you cross the road? 03:33:13 *stassats* has no trouble using defvar in the repl 03:33:19 huh? 03:33:39 The problem with defvar is that repeating it with a different value will have no effect. 03:33:44 well, i guess I have an implicit programmer policy that no special variables in the program will be single-character names 03:33:46 and i like defparameter/defvar because it returns the name of a variable, not its value 03:33:51 and that my repl temp variables always are 03:34:10 when the value is a huge array 03:34:54 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:34:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:35:47 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 03:36:40 -!- rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:36:59 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:38:40 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:41 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:42:14 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72459b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:07 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:12 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:43:19 As a Lisp newbie, can I, safely, ignore the details about scoping for a while? 03:43:29 no! 03:43:35 Thought not. 03:43:37 only for a pretty short while 03:44:31 basically, for (defvar a), consider (let ((a 3)) ...) as (let ((old-a a)) (setf a 3) .... (setf a old-a)) 03:44:58 and if a is not a special variable, then a only exists within (let ((a 3)) ...) 03:45:03 I still haven't found a good run-down on scoping in Common Lisp specifically. 03:45:14 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:45:16 Phoodus: Oh, that I know already. 03:45:40 what other scoping details are you concerned with? 03:45:41 cltl2-section Scope and extent 03:45:41 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html 03:46:13 that's a good "run-down" 03:46:46 stassats: Lovely! Thanks! 03:47:38 There's a naming convention involving the star '*' isn't there? 03:47:46 there is 03:47:54 *global* arg* 03:47:57 Usually used for special variables. 03:48:11 Special in what way? 03:48:16 clhs special 03:48:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm 03:48:27 aidalgol: or read the previous link 03:48:28 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.235] has joined #lisp 03:48:28 Special as in non-lexical :) It's CL terminology 03:48:42 Sorry, special as in dynamically bound. 03:48:44 Isn't it called earmuff convention or something like that? 03:49:23 it's not, but some use that name 03:49:30 yeah, just a vernacular 03:49:41 cltl2 compiler-let 03:49:41 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node83.html 03:50:13 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-69-109-216-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:31 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:51:31 How are special forms speical? Are they more than functions or macros? Or implimented outside Lisp? 03:51:51 there are special operators 03:52:01 They are applications of primitives. 03:52:08 "if" is special, right? 03:52:09 special forms don't evaluate their parameters; they can do whatever and are generally low level 03:52:15 aidalgol: right 03:52:29 You can't expect to be able to decompose a special like you can a macro. 03:52:41 It is only of real interest to code-walkers. 03:52:50 Since they need to have special knowledge of specials in order to walk. 03:53:48 OK, I think I get it now. :) 03:53:58 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:06 how many people here use *earmuffs* in variable names? 03:54:13 I've gotten out of the habit 03:54:24 I'll go read "Scope and Extent". 03:54:24 everyone sane 03:54:30 heh 03:54:32 Phoodus: O.o 03:54:35 -!- konr``` is now known as konr 03:54:36 Phoodus: you are insane. 03:54:55 I basically fell out of it because of SBCL's complaints for using earmuffs for defconstants 03:55:10 ** will keep you from going insane 03:55:11 *drewc* boggles 03:55:14 phoodus: Are you babbling? 03:55:15 and having to keep track of whether a global name was constant or not, determining whether or not it gets earmuffed 03:55:58 Usually +xxx+ is used with constants. 03:56:02 ++ is a convention for constants 03:56:11 yeah, but that gets into hungarian foo 03:56:16 ...no, it doesn't 03:56:18 no it doesn't 03:56:31 ^^ 03:56:46 having a naming convention for scope, I can agree with. When changing things between being a defvar and defconstant, and having to refactor every reference to it, that sucks 03:56:57 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:57:11 so don't do this 03:57:16 so don't do what? 03:57:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:57:30 don't tag any names? solved it for me ;) 03:57:42 Phoodus: so, instead you break lexical closures, piss of any lisper who will ever read your code, and basically make yourself a pariah 'round here. 03:57:50 what you've just described, don't jump between defvar and defconstant 03:57:54 -!- X-Scale is now known as TR2N 03:58:10 stassats: so write long-lived code once and never refactor it. Sure 03:58:10 bombshelter13b_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:17 C-c C-w r is your friend. 03:58:50 Phoodus: because that follows... i can't tell if you're ignorant or just apathetic! 03:59:09 Phoodus: maybe you could get sbcl to shut up about using *foo* for a defconstant? 03:59:14 Um, do you understand the difference between defvar and defconstant? 03:59:18 it's a language semantic that spills variable usage (not scope) into its name 03:59:22 defconstant doesn't establish variables per se. 03:59:37 right, but from code that uses it, they are both globally accessable in the same way 03:59:42 I suspect that you do not understand what defconstant does. 03:59:50 No. 03:59:56 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:05 (defconstant (make-hash-table)) <- is this reasonable code? 04:00:16 oops (defconstant +foo+ (make-hash-table)) 04:00:39 I'd like a reasonable way to say that, but obviously that throws serious problems at you when you recompile 04:00:45 since it's a different instance 04:00:53 It isn't about recompilation. 04:00:58 that can be solved 04:01:02 It's about every single reference to +foo+ 04:01:31 stassats: yeah, I've worked around it 04:01:41 That can be implemented by substituting (make-hash-table) for +foo+ in every occurrence of +foo+ 04:01:55 It isn't producing a variable in the sense that defvar does. 04:02:08 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-69-109-216-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:02:28 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:32 I know. It would be nice to have a value-constant special variable 04:02:47 which is evaluated once 04:03:09 I thought that's what defconstant did at first, but further reading and debugging taught me what it does 04:03:33 but in many cases, I use it properly as a symbol or number or other atomic value 04:03:49 *Phoodus* has very parameterized code 04:03:52 why would you want a constant _special_ variable? You can't rebind a constant, they don't require dynamic scope... 04:03:52 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:03:55 Hash tables are atoms, too. 04:04:20 but (make-hash-table) isn't 04:04:37 Neither is (+ 1 2) 04:04:40 So what? 04:04:46 (atom (make-hash-table)) => T 04:05:05 okay, s/atomic/scalar value/ or whatever floats your boat 04:05:13 or immediate value 04:05:16 is #\a a scalar value? 04:05:29 I do belive you know what I mean 04:05:29 Are numbers 'immediate values'? 04:05:40 are symbols immediate? 04:05:43 You appear to be blundering about. 04:05:43 Phoodus: no, I don't. 04:05:53 I'm not sure *you* know what you mean. 04:05:53 ah, "referentially transparent". There you go 04:06:26 Phoodus: eh? that applies to expressions, not values. 04:06:44 (make-hash-table) is not referentially transparent, right? whereas :foo and (+ 1 2) are? 04:06:55 What is required is that the forms produce values that are all eql. 04:07:02 That's all there is to it. 04:07:13 You appear to be confused by 'referentially transparent'. 04:07:24 right, I was going to get into lisp's definition of eq vs eql and numeric identity 04:07:28 You may be confusing it with 'constant', I guess. 04:07:34 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:07:37 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:45 what would be neat is if there was some sort of defparamater whose value was immutable except by reevaluating the form 04:08:06 [20100118 21:02] I know. It would be nice to have a value-constant special variable 04:08:26 Ralith: that's trivially implemented with a symbol macro 04:08:26 Ralith: Use a symbol-macro. 04:08:26 Phoodus: 'special' doesn't make sense in that context. 04:08:33 drewc, Zhivago: okay. 04:08:39 Ralith: symbol-macro and an inline function would do that for you. 04:08:56 even if I just have the one object? 04:09:06 s/I just/I want to just/ 04:09:09 would an inline function allow you to specify (make-hash-table) and have all of the usages refer to the same instance though? 04:09:10 Sure. 04:09:14 i'd just use the value slot of the symbol i was naming the symbol macro with 04:09:30 Phoodus: the point of the inline function is to make setf barf. 04:09:31 Phoodus: Sure, if it gets it from the one place ... 04:09:35 is that horrible? 04:09:43 drewc: and that's not setfable because of the symbol-macro? 04:10:28 Ralith: you define a setf function that errors too i suppose, and if someone really wants to setf the symbol-value, let em. 04:10:45 sounds Good Enough. 04:10:46 will that work? 04:10:50 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has left #lisp 04:11:08 not *quite* as clean as it could be 04:11:15 but I am okay with "if you really want to break things, go ahead" 04:11:28 Consider (defvar *mutable* (make-hash-table)) (defun read-mutable () *mutable*) (define-symbol-macro foo '(read-mutable)) ; approximately 04:11:29 sounds like CL 04:11:33 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 04:11:42 indeed. 04:12:17 Now wrap that up in a macro and stick *mutable* in a separate package with an auto-generated name. 04:12:38 isn't that kind of littery? 04:13:07 you're allowed to mess up your own packages... that's the point. 04:13:09 could even insert a load-time-value to hoist the specials lookup to load-time. 04:13:27 or use an unlikely but well-publicised affix. 04:13:44 I just don't particularly like the idea of spraying gensym'd packages all over the global namespace. 04:13:57 Ralith: no, you name the pacakge 04:14:04 oh, so only one? 04:14:08 %%**foo**%% <- good enough. 04:14:09 that's reasonable I suppose. 04:14:28 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:37 pkhuong: contextl uses something =dynamic-symbol-for-foo= 04:14:48 something like* 04:14:52 but you need an immutable variable holding that package name for easy reference ... ;) 04:15:02 -!- bombshelter13b_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:14 no, you don't. 04:15:16 Why would you need that? The symbol knows which package it is in. 04:15:20 right. Unlikely to create a collision, but simple enough to explain to the users in short sentences of small words. 04:15:40 pkhuong: and has the advantage that you can inspect it and otherwise manupulate it 04:15:53 without trying to find some symbol in some package etc 04:15:57 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:15:59 right. 04:16:14 wow, remind me not to try to make a funny in here :-P 04:16:42 this is important for things like contextl's layered functions, where you do want to get at the actual generic function object to, say, remove methods. 04:27:52 Ralith: "gensym'd packages"? package names are strings 04:28:19 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 04:30:17 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-234-152.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:34 -!- derefed [n=derefed@cpe-74-65-181-129.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:35:34 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:39:15 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 04:39:34 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-99-20-129-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:24 bombshelter13b_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:26 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:42:53 -!- re-l [n=re-l@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:44:57 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2009122116]"] 04:44:58 -!- bombshelter13b_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:45:27 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:46:23 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-245-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:46:47 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:47:09 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has joined #lisp 04:48:53 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:22 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 04:57:25 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:58:02 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [No route to host] 04:59:15 emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:29 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.63.107] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:06:00 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:06:28 -!- gbomo [n=dkd@71.108.226.38] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:08:19 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:11:44 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:25 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:12:32 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 05:14:13 -!- Bobrobyn_ [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:15:09 Bobrobyn_ [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:16:02 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 05:17:21 jbomo [n=dkd@71.108.226.38] has joined #lisp 05:18:22 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:40 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 05:21:39 Demosthenes [n=demo@dhcp184-49-168-62.univ.buf.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:01 peterwang [n=user@122.227.189.156] has joined #lisp 05:32:45 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:35:12 so how do I unintern a specific specialized defmethod? 05:35:46 drewc: ie, I defined a render method for a component, and I want it to go away 05:36:28 you can easily remove a method from a generic function using the slime inspector 05:38:31 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@76-191-207-53.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [] 05:39:02 benny [n=benny@i577A34DC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:39:51 disturbance [i=ac@c-68-34-160-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:52 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hwckjhvtjrvatfsd] has left #lisp 05:45:17 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mqdvbslfklrouvuc] has joined #lisp 05:45:48 adeht: tried a few things and can't really get into the inspector. I usually get an UNBOUND-VARIABLE error. 05:46:00 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mqdvbslfklrouvuc] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:46:09 (I've never used the slime inspector before.) 05:46:25 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:14 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fescerfhyjadpsuv] has joined #lisp 05:48:28 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fescerfhyjadpsuv] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:38 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qnyncjmrsqcyxvml] has joined #lisp 05:50:42 felideon: `C-c I #'print-object' for example 05:52:35 adeht: ok I got it, I can select the region (or retype the declaration) 06:01:33 -!- dys` is now known as dys 06:02:39 had anyone tried CFFI with static linking? 06:03:25 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-165-32.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:50 adeht: I don'tknow what I did but not even slime-restart-inferior-lisp fixed it. had to quit and restart slime :) 06:04:45 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:04:48 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:05:55 I don't know what you did, either ;) 06:06:17 Unbounded too many things I guess, hehe 06:07:54 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:22 ah! found it. yes, that is pretty easy 06:08:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:08:38 adeht: I was inspecting the method, not the generic function. 06:10:11 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 06:10:52 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066170.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 06:10:58 derrida [n=phantom@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 06:11:07 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:54 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:19:29 adeht: thank you 06:21:28 np 06:22:36 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:23:10 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 06:33:18 kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 06:36:34 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:37:54 larry65 [n=larry65@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:38:53 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:39:15 I'm trying to define a macro that accepts an arg, so that it generates (defun get-arg () ....), any suggestions how I'd go about doing that? Everything I've tried seems to expand into (defun get- arg nil ....) 06:40:50 you need to do string concatenation, and call intern 06:41:06 intern makes a symbol out of a string, putting it in a package 06:41:57 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:02 clhs intern 06:42:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 06:42:35 Phoodus: Thank you 06:44:29 ah, you also need to watch out for upper/lowercase. Not sure if there's something in there to apply lisp's default case on your string 06:45:02 because (intern "foOoO") -> |foOoO| instead of FOOO 06:45:57 +O 06:46:19 (format nil "~a-~a" '#:get arg) 06:46:20 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 06:46:44 yeah, if you're working from symbol inputs 06:47:38 (intern (format ...) (symbol-package arg)) will put the symbol into the same package as your passed argument 06:48:20 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 06:48:21 again, if your input is a symbol 06:52:31 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:54:47 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:35 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:24 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 07:01:27 evening 07:01:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:22 -!- larry65 [n=larry65@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 07:05:53 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:06:49 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-muafvevolnjarnff] has joined #lisp 07:06:52 morning 07:09:51 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:10:08 -!- franki^ [n=franki@unaffiliated/franki] has left #lisp 07:10:34 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-139-100-96.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:11 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:02 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.94.255] has joined #lisp 07:13:02 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:14:48 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:16:04 dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:16:16 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:16:18 c|mell [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has joined #lisp 07:16:54 -!- Bobrobyn_ [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:18:05 Harag [n=Harag@wbs-41-208-199-84.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:21:20 does anybody know of any hierarchical database(s) written in lisp? All I can find is object databases that are hierarchical in nature. 07:25:15 uouou [n=magnific@unaffiliated/uouou] has joined #lisp 07:25:27 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@88.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:27:55 Harag: um 07:28:07 Harag: why would someone want to rewrite their filesystem in lisp? 07:29:36 because he like lisp? 07:29:40 likes 07:30:21 rahul: because a file system wont do what I want ... to many small entities 07:31:18 Harag: that's exactly what file systems are good at 07:32:06 is it the size you're concerned about or is it the branching factor? 07:32:26 just opening and closing that many files I would emagine would be prohibitive 07:32:47 branching 07:32:54 no more than reading that many blocks from a database 07:33:17 so you're worried about the time it takes to look up a specific file name in a directory? 07:33:33 for one thing, filesystems are different 07:33:59 fractalis pasted "Genesis of Lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93602 07:34:00 -!- chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6.3"] 07:34:10 but a lot more than reading many blocks from a couple of files 07:35:41 Insomnia and boredom are a dangerous combination, so I whiped that up pretty quickly. 07:37:00 Harag: no, reading many blocks from a couple files is the same as reading many blocks from many files 07:37:20 opening and closing files is extremely inexpensive 07:38:31 it just increments and decrements, respectively, an in-memory refcount on the inode 07:40:06 but at entities in the millions shurely the overhead would show? 07:41:45 no 07:41:49 espescialy if the file system has journaling? 07:41:57 definitely not 07:42:24 you haven't seen my filesystem yet! 07:42:49 rahul what is the catch? 07:42:59 Harag: how do you expect this overhead to exist? 07:43:16 I don't understand where it would come from 07:43:28 nor do I understand what journalling has to do with this 07:43:47 -!- jbomo [n=dkd@71.108.226.38] has quit [Client Quit] 07:43:55 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:44:06 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.32] has joined #lisp 07:44:52 you need to change the refcount of your objects for a database, too 07:44:56 rahul what a know about file system internals is dangerous... 07:44:58 if you want it to be correct 07:45:00 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:45:32 parse error at line 1 07:46:28 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:48:34 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-181-47.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:41 rahul but shurely the task of opening a findind a file, opening it to a establish a stream has overhead? 07:48:57 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:49:16 rahul but shurely the task of findind a file, opening it to a establish a stream has overhead? 07:49:27 not much 07:49:39 finding a file alphabetically can have a cost 07:49:56 to mitigate that, you use basically a trie 07:50:23 have an intermediate level of directories that are just the first letter of the file name 07:51:04 sorry my typing is painfull at the moment I changed keyboard layout and it is proving painfull 07:52:00 chuck_mcknight [n=chuck@c-76-104-160-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:43 Hello, looking for recommendations for cross-platform GUI library (Windows, OSX, X Windows). My gut feeling from my Googling so far is to create a server in Lisp and build clients in something else (C++ with wxWidgets or Qt seem the most likely choices). However, I'm looking for guidance from the Lisp cognoscenti. Thanks! :-) 07:53:54 I suggest dhtml. 07:54:13 ltk is pretty easy to get into 07:54:15 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 07:54:23 Hmm, not necessarily looking for a browser-based approach. What about desktop apps? 07:54:40 I'd tend to suggest dhtml there, too. :) 07:54:49 lol 07:55:08 I'm comfortable with just opening a socket. No desire to deal with the differences in browser rendering capabilities. :-) 07:55:20 chuck_mcknight: There's a gtk and qt wrapper library for Lisp 07:55:23 Well, you have a point there. 07:55:54 are cl-berkely-db or bdb any good? Does anyone of you use Berkely DB with lisp? 07:56:05 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-76-18-86-163.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:56:09 elephant uses berkely db 07:56:14 With websockets becoming standardized it should get a lot easier. 07:56:20 chuck_mcknight: That is if you want to go open source, commercial vendors tend to be better equipped in that area 07:56:23 crod [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has joined #lisp 07:56:28 knobo: elephant uses. There's also basic TokyoCabinet wrapper 07:57:05 Yeah, I'm trying to avoid having to pass on cost to my users. I'm working on some ideas for open source stuff, so I'm working in either SBCL or CLISP right now. 07:57:14 Is elephant considered a good thing? 07:57:25 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:57:48 rahul may I bother you about this subject again later? I need to do some googling on this first 07:57:48 what is TokyoCabinet? 07:57:55 I've been looking at the Qt bindings, but they seem to be somewhat out of date. I might end up going to the gtk bindings, but wanted to poll others to get their impressions. 07:57:57 chuck_mcknight: there was some binding to gtk-server, but it would be probably visibly different from rest. CLX works on all major platforms, but won't follow any platform-specific guidelines 07:58:07 chuck_mcknight: What qt binding are you looking at? 07:58:18 chuck_mcknight: Qt bindings are in good shape, look for cl-smoke and CommonQt 07:58:30 (both require Qt >=4.5) 07:58:32 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:58:46 good morning 07:58:51 CommonQt was the bindings, but I don't get a feel for how current they are. 07:59:22 you can consult lichtblau 07:59:46 How complex of a UI do you need? 07:59:52 I'm developing on OSX, but have Windows and Linux in virtual machines to check the outcomes. 08:00:27 -!- Guest42234 is now known as z0d 08:00:52 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:00:53 Phoodus: I need to be able to cover the basic controls (listbox, combobox, buttons, lables, grids, graphics, etc.). I'm not in need of an HTML canvas (at least not right now). 08:00:58 chuck_mcknight: well, CommonQt and cl-smoke are both quite recent (though it might not look like that sometimes) and they are in quite good shape 08:01:24 TokyoCabinet is faster then bdb? 08:01:27 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:01:29 I'd still say that for whipping up something fast & easy, you should look at ltk 08:01:40 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-152-235.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:10 OK, then I'm just down to tracking down CFFI, et al. 08:02:24 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:02:35 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 08:02:49 Any quick tips on creating an SBCL "package" that my users can just download and install? 08:03:15 chuck_mcknight: for OSX-specific, look at stuff included with CCL. As for "packaging", it's a complex question, but I recommend looking up cl-launch 08:03:28 also (save-lisp-and-die) 08:06:01 Thanks! 08:06:06 -!- chuck_mcknight [n=chuck@c-76-104-160-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 08:11:00 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 08:11:33 looks like Tokyocabinet is the way to go. 08:11:53 Than you for that suggestion. 08:13:09 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-15-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:47 http://github.com/unya/cl-tc <--- have minimal bindings - they don't have hi-level lisp interface, but they cover 90% of the C API (there might be some work missing for callbacks etc.) 08:13:52 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:19 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 08:14:32 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:18:34 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-113-230.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:21:46 GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 08:21:49 -!- GrayGnome is now known as GrayGonme 08:22:43 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:18 somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 08:29:24 jestocost [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has joined #lisp 08:29:35 -!- hicx174 [n=hicx174@211.44.210.50] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:32:52 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-139-100-96.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:36:05 -!- crod [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:43:22 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:01 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:53 crod [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has joined #lisp 08:58:12 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:01:47 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.94.255] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:02:56 lukego [n=lukegorr@113.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 09:03:35 lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 09:04:48 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:05:35 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:07:05 c|mell [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has joined #lisp 09:09:21 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:11:17 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.94.255] has joined #lisp 09:11:41 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 09:11:52 gko [n=gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 09:13:29 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:14:22 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:14:45 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:16:23 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:22 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:18:54 Where can I read up on the state of SBCL on win32 and/or win64? 09:20:48 dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:24:20 Kenjin [n=josesant@a85-139-168-81.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 09:24:45 I'm tempted to make a small and simple web-app ("Upload a file to have it converted to another format"). the caveman in me imagines using cgi and shell, but I wonder - what's the most caveman-friendly lisp web library/framework? 09:24:48 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest12080 09:24:55 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 09:26:56 hunchentoot is probably most used 09:27:08 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:13 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:27:23 but afaik it is more than a web server, it is an application server of sorts 09:27:27 c|mell [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has joined #lisp 09:27:30 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:39 lukego: for such a simple task tpd2 should be fine 09:28:19 well actually it's slightly more elaborate. I want to upload tcpdump files and build a little online library of graphs from the individual streams that I find in the trace files 09:28:22 Ralith: afaik SBCL/win32 lacks threads and isn't kitten-safe 09:28:32 are those being fixed? 09:28:43 Ralith: slowly 09:28:47 'kay 09:28:49 what about win64? 09:28:53 win32 is slowly becoming irrelevant 09:28:57 slowly? 09:29:20 lots of XP users out there. 09:29:32 Ralith: there's afaik no SBCL/win64 09:29:37 there isn't? O.o 09:29:44 weird. 09:29:44 Ralith: slightly different ABI 09:29:47 lispm [n=joswig@e177144099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:54 I thought it was a slightly *easier* ABI. 09:29:59 judging by CCL's happiness on it, etc 09:30:15 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit ["Changing server"] 09:30:21 Ralith: CCL is happier also because their 64bit compiler is afaik more mature than x86-32 ;-) 09:30:36 heh, okay 09:31:10 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 09:31:30 but yes, win64 abi is supposedly nicer. However, judgin by certain complaints from nyef, the parts that he was fighting with lately are the same, like exception handling 09:31:31 -!- crod [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:53 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 09:34:11 (OTOH, I *love* systemwide condition facilities!) 09:34:42 SBCL does not propagate functions return types for when a function uses &rest, or &key -- both such involves &more-processing, and the XEP consists of a MVBIND which may be the culprit but I have no idea -- does that ring a bell to anyone? 09:34:57 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.96] has joined #lisp 09:35:11 -!- sadiquea is now known as sdqali 09:35:12 In particular does anyone remember conditions when return-type propagates bails out? 09:36:04 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 09:37:43 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7565d2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:48 bah how stupid is that? (funcall (lambda ...) ...) seems not to be alpha-converted, but ((lambda ...) ...) and (funcall #'(lambda ...) ...) is 09:41:31 I finally found a reason to prefer #'(lambda ...) over (lambda ...) :-) 09:43:16 ....woah 09:43:19 SLIME is awesome. 09:43:29 I am entering a path in a string literal and it is giving me autocompletion from my filesystem. 09:44:32 yeah that's a special hack 09:45:34 gibranian1 [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has joined #lisp 09:46:57 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 09:46:57 -!- sdqali [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:47:34 somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 09:48:45 prxq [n=mommer@f050197175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:48:56 hi 09:49:13 has anyone here posted to openmcl-devel via the gmane interface? 09:49:51 I think I did 09:50:09 I would not bet that it works - does it? 09:50:15 -!- uouou [n=magnific@unaffiliated/uouou] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:50:50 sort of. it is 'held for moderation' 09:51:16 but that might as well be /dev/null :-) maybe I should have some patience. 09:51:35 probably you should use the mailing list directlty 09:51:38 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.94.255] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:46 or the #ccl irc channel 09:51:58 prxq: yes for a lot of mailing lists you have to subscribe to the mailinglist to be allowed to post 09:52:15 prxq: You subscribe, then go to the options site, and turn off delivery 09:52:25 ah ok 09:52:37 You can turn off delivery globally for all sites on c-l.net 09:52:38 I think ILISP or COMINT did the filename completion in strings even 09:52:55 then I'll do that later today and cancel the other post. 09:53:25 tcr, lispm: thanks 09:54:13 in Lispworks, filename completion in strings is m-tab, the operator has to detect that he wants to complete a filename 09:54:38 crod [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has joined #lisp 09:54:57 dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:55:44 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:55:50 hicx174 [n=hicx174@211.44.210.50] has joined #lisp 09:59:53 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:00:58 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-muafvevolnjarnff] has quit ["Page closed"] 10:00:59 -!- gibranian1 [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:01:15 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:02:00 jestocost [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has joined #lisp 10:03:25 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit ["be back later"] 10:04:47 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 10:05:40 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.94.255] has joined #lisp 10:06:47 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 10:07:02 -!- crod [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:09:02 <_deepfire> It's amazing how much better you feel after refusing shipment of a package which was stuck in customs... 10:13:08 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has joined #lisp 10:14:52 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:15:02 G'day! 10:15:11 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:15:16 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@dhcp184-49-168-62.univ.buf.wayport.net] has quit ["leaving"] 10:15:52 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:16:25 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:17:50 p_l: I read in some #lisp logs where you stated that you have swig interfaces for TokyoCabinet but it lacked a lispy api... any progress on that? 10:18:18 http://github.com/unya/cl-tc 10:18:37 Harag: knobo also asked about this 10:18:52 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:20:28 missed that.... 10:21:30 Harag: no wonder, private message it was :) 10:21:52 p_l: what is the peformance like 10:22:25 -!- cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit ["Meow, meOUT!"] 10:23:07 Harag: I don't have any good benchmark, so the only thing you can rely on is the benchmark on tokyocabinet website. However, so far, the only extra overhead would be from Lisp->C calls (I'm not sure about state of callback support) 10:23:30 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:12 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:24:40 -!- Guest12080 is now known as Kenjin 10:25:55 cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 10:26:54 p_l: have you used TokyoCabinet much? Would you have any advise regarding it? 10:29:53 t_l: have you looked at http://github.com/keithj/cl-tokyo-cabinet? 10:33:23 crod [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has joined #lisp 10:34:00 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has joined #lisp 10:34:53 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [] 10:36:40 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:38:29 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:14 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.94.255] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:40:46 where can i find information on defining macros with special syntax like #'() 10:41:29 gibranian: you are looking for reader macros 10:41:37 gibranian: you can't 10:42:05 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:42:07 That is if you want to have something like #'(foobar x y z) 10:42:22 and also have it work in the CAR of a form 10:42:54 tcr: what do you mean? 10:42:56 tcr: can't i? 10:43:18 gibranian: ask clhs: 10:43:22 clhs #' 10:43:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 10:43:37 clhs s-m-c 10:43:37 SET-MACRO-CHARACTER: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm 10:43:49 clhs #' 10:43:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 10:43:49 gibranian: well, if specbot was online. 10:43:53 gibranian: otherwise, check the hyperspec. 10:43:56 cmeow_ [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 10:43:58 gibranian: section 2.4 Standard Macro Characters. 10:45:36 i am sorry i think i couldn't succeed in asking what i need in fact, i need to define a reader macro 10:46:09 #'() was an example 10:46:25 gibranian: set-dispatch-macro-character doc has an example for that 10:47:06 kuwabara2: oh, that's it, thank you 10:47:14 thanks everyone 10:47:48 you probably don't need a dispatching macro character 10:50:41 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:54:19 stassats: in fact i don't, what i am writing is a very basic thing to waste reader macro characters, but i am doing this as an exercise and i try to use every possible feature that fits to learn something ;) 10:56:19 stassats: i probably won't really face a situation that writing a reader macro is essential for a long time 10:57:40 jestocost [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has joined #lisp 10:58:31 -!- gko [n=gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:58:36 What's a good way to make TRACE report the caller? 10:59:25 stack trace? 10:59:38 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:04 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:04:43 what's the canonical way to memset an alien to 0's? 11:05:26 -!- cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:09:30 I don't suppose memset is an option? :) 11:09:42 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 11:09:50 c|mell [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has joined #lisp 11:11:23 it is, but I ask because it's not included in the standard fii bindings 11:11:34 (ffi either) 11:15:50 -!- crod [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:24 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:16:36 dabd [n=dabd@a85-139-104-188.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 11:24:19 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-105-135.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:13 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:27:29 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@211.24.195.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:28:59 hello, it seems TAB binding has changed. Anyone uncomfortable with the new behaviour? 11:29:08 I mean in SLIME. 11:29:25 lukego: just curious: which ffi bindings _are_ standard? 11:30:10 jdz: `C-c C-d a memset' in sbcl is my check :) e.g. sb-posix matches a lot of stuff 11:30:35 oh, sb-posix. k, tnx 11:30:44 leo2007: changed how? I'm also noticing package names not completing in parallel with symbol names 11:30:45 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 11:30:55 jdz: fsvo"standard" etc disclaimer :) 11:31:05 sorry I mean TAB in sldb. 11:31:08 the debugger 11:31:13 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@c80-216-173-115.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:37:33 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:41:31 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-66.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:40 is there a way for mortals to debug sbcl "CORRUPTION WARNING" errors (segfault I think)? 11:45:02 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:45:42 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:45:43 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 11:47:24 how sensible is it to use cvs sbcl (via clbuild) for personal programming? 11:47:39 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.51.150] has joined #lisp 11:51:07 lukego: I've attached gdb to SBCL in the past to find the problem. 11:51:31 (actually I think I'm hitting the same segfault-with-swank problem as before, forgot to use the workaround on this machine0 11:55:50 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-15-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:57:44 What does #lisp think of finalizers? 12:00:26 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:02:26 what is new in hunchentoot 1.1? 12:03:37 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-66.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:03:53 nm, CHANGELOG 12:06:12 hmmm, not much has changed :-) 12:06:59 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 12:07:07 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:09:39 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:12:26 HG` [n=HG@xdslem221.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:31 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:44 lukego: Fuzzy completing does that (package+symbol) 12:16:05 only fuzzy? I thought I could say sb-al:u-int to get sb-alient:unsigned-int 12:16:42 Ralith: Finalizers are brittle, and should only be used as debugging aid if at all 12:17:40 lukego: I don't think it did that, but I don't know. I know that I added it to slime-fuzzy three years ago 12:17:46 sbcl closes socket file descriptors on finalizers 12:17:53 sb-sockets that is 12:18:09 Does it signal a warning in that case? 12:18:14 tcr: ok I'm sure I'm misremembering. thanks for the correction, I'll teach my fingers to use fuzzy completion sometimes 12:18:56 lukego: I bind [tab] to slime-indent-and-complete (which indents at the start of a line, but completes at a symbol), and set slime-symbol-completion-function appropriately 12:19:15 That said, slime's fuzzy completion can sometimes be obnoxiously annoying 12:19:23 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:20:05 it hijacks the current buffer key bindings of the current mode temporarily to control the fuzzy completion window 12:20:15 but the old key bindings are not restored on C-x 1 12:25:15 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 12:27:03 http://www.thoughtstuff.com/rme/viewing.lisp 12:27:33 lukego: sb-kernel:system-area-ub{8,16,32,64}-fill 12:27:43 thanks felix! 12:28:06 in this lisp code, there are two :constructor's of defstruct named "point", what is the second 12:28:32 it doesn't have any option 12:29:25 does it have a use or is it a mistake? 12:30:01 lukego: isn't it typically wiser to work with cffi and usocket, instead of sb-*? unless you're hacking on the system libs themselves. 12:30:29 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:30:34 possibly. for now cffi and usocket is under the heading of "more stuff to learn" rather than "stuff I know how to use" :) 12:30:43 lukego has never been accused of being wise 12:30:47 and look where that's got him 12:30:57 *lukego* is in hack-and-slash mode :) 12:31:07 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 12:31:22 lukego: i suggest diablo II then 12:31:29 jetlagged like buggery but I'd like to write a new tcpdump before bed, that will dump into neatly separated files in real time 12:32:01 libcap? 12:32:18 for some reason decided to teach sb-bsd-sockets about PF_PACKET sockets instead of porting my old from-scratch binding from cmucl 12:32:36 fusss: skipping libpcap and just using the system calls 12:32:59 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-182.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:35:08 What's a good way to distinguish in a function in the compiler between "we came here from compile-file", and "we came here due to PCL"? 12:35:55 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:37:19 a good way? I'm not sure that that's a thing that admits good ways 12:37:36 for your own purposes, maybe whether the compiler output is going to fasl or to core 12:38:20 for actual real code to be considered for sbcl, (defun compile-for-pcl (name form &aux (*compiling-for-pcl* t)) (compile name form)) 12:38:37 kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 12:38:45 but for actual real code I'd suggest fixing the real bug, whatever it is 12:39:46 I mean so I can say (unless (came-here-from-pcl-p) (break ..)) 12:41:04 check the type of *compile-object* 12:41:37 if it's from pcl (or anything calling COMPILE rather than COMPILE-FILE) it'll be a CORE-OBJECT; compile-file should use a FASL-OUTPUT 12:41:42 yup just saw that 12:41:56 as you told about core I remember I got there once 12:42:32 gibranian pasted "constructor" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93611 12:42:45 Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:18 i didn't get what the second :constructor without option is for? 12:44:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 12:44:51 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-66.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 12:47:07 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 12:47:49 gibranian: I'd guess none, but I haven't checked the clhs for hidden subtilities. (:constructor)'s point is usually to not define a constructor function 12:48:14 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qnyncjmrsqcyxvml] has left #lisp 12:50:04 tcr: i thought it maybe is to prevent the automatic definition of make-point constructor but the first constructor definition probably already prevents that one 12:50:31 yes 12:50:35 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:58 but the name of your constructor is bad 12:51:06 constructors are conventially named make-foo 12:51:28 it is not mine :) 12:51:47 it is from http://www.thoughtstuff.com/rme/viewing.lisp 12:58:27 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:47 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:02 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-66.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:00:21 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:31 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:11 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:03:05 (defun logged-in-users () 13:03:07 (loop for x in (session-db *site*) collecting (session-value 'current-user (cdr x)))) 13:03:13 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:03:14 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066170.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:15 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 13:03:17 hunchentoot bravado :-) 13:03:55 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:04:31 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:21 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:06:40 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:21 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:44 -!- sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Client Quit] 13:08:49 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:10:06 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e195-115.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:11:16 grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 13:11:39 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:12:17 Dodek [i=dodek@2001:6a0:175:fead:0:0:0:5] has joined #lisp 13:14:49 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:15:23 anyone know of macro example for rendering html tables? 13:15:53 possible sig (with-table (cols-specs) row-list) or similar 13:16:06 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:04 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:49 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:20:19 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:47 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 13:21:20 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:21:54 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.197.102] has joined #lisp 13:22:15 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.90.230] has joined #lisp 13:24:49 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:26:27 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:26:29 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:27:49 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 13:30:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:30:44 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 13:31:29 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 13:31:37 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:45 -!- emouse [n=rpm@chat.sysert.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:34:34 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:38 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-24-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:34:48 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-173-115.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 13:36:48 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [] 13:36:50 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:50 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 13:36:50 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:38:21 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229106115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:33 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.91.234] has joined #lisp 13:38:51 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-39-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:41:45 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:33 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:49:30 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:52:27 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@113.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [] 13:52:33 -!- clop [n=jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:53:53 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:54:10 linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #lisp 13:55:52 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:57:48 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-81.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:58:14 dnolen [n=dnolen@c-739ae253.024-216-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:00:56 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:00:57 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:01:32 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:01 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 14:02:09 -!- Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:02:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:03:36 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:12 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:07:20 clop [n=jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:02 -!- clop [n=jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:50 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:32 peter_pan [n=peter_pa@p5497117F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:22 clop [n=jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:02 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-182.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:04 Hi @all - i am pretty new to lisp and have a question about (don't kill me cause its not the "real" lisp) newlisp... is here anyone who has experience with that ? 14:12:24 *Guthur* loads his gun 14:12:29 peter_pan: Doubtful. Try a newlisp forum. 14:12:29 ^^ 14:12:33 peter_pan: the answer is probably: switch to CL. 14:17:24 ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:17:50 Can I reference class slots in another slot's initform? 14:18:10 ben_m 14:18:12 oops 14:18:14 no 14:18:19 doh :( 14:18:19 ben_m: nope. But all the initialisation protocol is defined with generic functions. 14:18:59 uh.. 14:19:20 ben_m: that means you add methods to initialize-instance or reinitialize-instance to do the slot initialization you need. 14:19:33 I see. 14:19:38 thanks :) 14:20:24 or even make-instance. 14:21:46 RaceCondition [n=erik@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:24:58 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:25:42 Oh that's fairly clean :) 14:27:07 lukego [n=lukegorr@113.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 14:30:49 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:08 *fusss* wants this query as SELECT-DAO (query (:select (:max 'timestamp) :from 'login :where (:= 'user user-id)) :single) 14:31:28 do it! 14:31:34 the proverbial last-login 14:31:42 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.51.150] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:31:52 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.167.251.245] has joined #lisp 14:32:14 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@113.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [] 14:32:16 Xach, do you design a new Lisp? 14:33:01 (defprepared last-login (query (:select (:max 'timestamp) :from 'login :where (:= 'user '$1)) :single)) <-- blazing fast, but crummy 14:33:29 lispm: I don't. 14:34:12 Xach: What?! I thought everyone does! 14:34:17 I thought you were unclear whether to include logical pathnames or not? 14:34:22 ;-) 14:34:29 newnewlisp 14:34:45 reallynewlisp 14:34:50 lispm: No, after reading the specification of logical pathnames, they seem to solve some problems I have and I'm eager to use them. I'd like to find out what experiences others have had with them. 14:35:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:35:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:29 I guess everybody is now interesting to find out about your experience, then. ;-) 14:35:58 interested 14:36:04 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:20 Who has that link with the defsystem/packaging tutorial, please? :) 14:38:56 minion: tell ben_m about xach-asdf 14:38:56 ben_m: have a look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 14:39:00 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:39:09 <3 14:40:11 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:37 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 14:43:49 "less than three" 14:45:12 -!- linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:45:21 you know you have been through hell with clsql when you're grateful postmodern was stubborn for *only* 4 hours 14:46:05 -!- peter_pan [n=peter_pa@p5497117F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:31 I really could use a small example of select-dao/query-dao using SQL functions 14:47:53 COUNT/MAX/MIN/AVG, etc. 14:47:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:52:00 fusss: like (:select (:max :age) :from :customers)? 14:52:04 or something different? 14:52:15 yes 14:52:25 but that's for QUERY/EXECUTE 14:52:37 try doing it with QUERY-DAO 14:52:46 I don't know what query-dao is, sorry. 14:52:57 the *-DAO functions return clos objects. the others return lists. 14:54:27 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:03 fusss: what object slot corresopnds with the aggregate function? 14:55:11 fuss i got some simple and complex ones for you 14:55:32 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["bye"] 14:55:45 Xach: i wanna take the MAX of timestamp slot 14:56:18 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:56:48 it works nicely in the listy version, and also as a prepared statement. but he closy version is broken since QUERY-DAO takes the table as a first argument and expects a different query syntax than the listy version. 14:56:53 Harag: fire away :-) 14:57:08 (defun last-login (user-id) 14:57:10 (coalesce (query (:select (:max 'timestamp) :from 'login :where (:= 'user user-id)) :single))) 14:57:12 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.102] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 14:57:13 I get an error "150 is not of type SYMBOL" in this code "(defclass guy () (x-pos :accessor guy-x :initarg x :initform 150) ...)" 14:57:17 fusss: Did you obey the constraint specified by query-dao? 14:57:18 getting link 14:57:29 -!- [x39]DrWho [n=d@98.225.208.183] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:32 the above is broken since COALSCE can be fed more arguments than the implementation limit 14:57:57 ben_m: That's bad syntax. you need to wrap (x-pos ...) in parens. 14:58:18 ben_m: e.g. (defclass guy () ((x-pos ...))) 14:58:43 ben_m: As you have it there, it's defining slots named X-POS, :ACCESSOR, GUY-X, :INITARG, X, :INITFORM, and then barfing on the non-symbol 150. 14:58:49 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:09 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:02:06 somecodehere [n=ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:02:48 oh 15:03:05 thanks! <3 15:03:07 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.90] has joined #lisp 15:04:38 fuss: some examples here http://bitbucket.org/harag/weblocks-dev/src/tip/src/store/postmodern/weblocks-postmodern.lisp 15:05:06 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e195-115.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:05:40 with the disclaimer that what i know about lisp is dangerous 15:06:12 Harag: wow! 15:06:35 that bad ... lol 15:06:43 is that your project? Harag 15:07:07 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:07:23 not bad, just elaborate 15:07:36 it's buidling query strings with format and concat 15:08:34 fusss: I'm still really curious about my question. 15:08:57 yes but only when the lisp syntax becomes to hairy 15:09:43 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:09:46 Xach: I don't think I understand it. did I satisfy the query-dao constraints? well, I have tried every possible permutation of result type and query argument .. 15:10:18 (query-dao 'return-type query-syntax-or-string) hardly any room for error 15:10:24 fusss: I mean specifically the constraint that the result column name must match the name of the slot. 15:10:50 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:10:54 Xach: ?! let me paste something 15:11:17 *Xach* lets 15:11:51 Recently I was thinking about turning postmodern around backwards, and making it a fake Postgres server to provide a way to query Lisp data from Postgres tools & clients... 15:13:30 darn and i just decided to go with redis.... 15:13:37 linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #lisp 15:14:23 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 15:16:27 fusss pasted "baseline" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93618 15:16:51 Harag: what bindings are you using for Redis? 15:16:57 cl-redis from cliki? 15:17:59 fusss: What did you expect from your first query? A fresh object with a specific timestamp slot value? 15:18:05 yes http://github.com/vseloved/cl-redis 15:18:08 Xach: sorry, make the last QUERY query-dao 15:18:15 Xach: yes 15:18:41 fusss: Well, you didn't follow the requirement in the documentation for query-dao, for starters. I don't know if that will help, though. 15:19:11 it might push you through to the next problem, though. 15:19:54 Xach: I think the spec is asking for 1:1 matching between result set and type 15:20:18 fusss: It's certainly asking for the 1:1 matching of the name of a column and its corresponding slot. 15:20:25 fusss: and you haven't done that yet. 15:20:48 (:max 'timestamp) won't have the same name as timestamp in the result. 15:20:58 this works (query-dao 'login (:select :* :from 'login)) 15:21:14 but it's not the MAX 15:21:37 How does postmodern "FOO as BAR" for result column names? 15:21:46 (:as (:max 'foo) 'bar) or something? 15:22:29 xach is right on the money 15:23:19 *Xach* doesn't actually have postmodern handy 15:23:48 Spaghett1ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:15 -!- Spaghett1ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:19 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:34 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:53 you know, the world will be better off when i learn SQL at once 15:25:10 Xach: don't worry about it, will just use strings for tonight 15:25:36 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [] 15:25:59 thanks much 15:28:49 RaceCondition [n=erik@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:29:21 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:26 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:49 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:16 brown [n=user@72.14.228.137] has joined #lisp 15:30:38 -!- brown is now known as Guest74708 15:30:44 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 15:32:47 fuss: (query-dao 'login (:select 'id 'user 'ip 'browser (:as (:max 'timestamp) 'timestamp) :from 'login :group-by 'id 'user 'ip 'browser ) 15:32:53 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 15:34:06 actually if you want only one record move the max to where 15:34:14 addled [n=alawson@21.Red-81-38-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:57 Harag: WOW! 15:35:02 I wasn't even close 15:35:26 where the hell did you get that query? is it normal SQL or did it take some source-code reading? 15:35:58 its normal sql 15:37:21 rrice [n=rrice@72-254-85-241.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:11 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 15:40:07 fuss: get Joe Celko's SQL for Smarties if you want to learn sql.... 15:40:40 lacedaemon [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 15:40:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:41:03 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c-739ae253.024-216-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 15:41:07 Harag: will do, thanks again, et Xach 15:41:54 its worth its wait in gold... 15:43:51 Harag: shipping was that slow? 15:45:22 lol 15:46:21 well close to that slow ...i live in the bunbus 15:46:40 bundus 15:46:59 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.96] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:38 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 15:50:34 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:21 lithper2_ [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 15:52:52 splittist [i=50a9827e@gateway/web/freenode/x-elgthjelwivnhaqv] has joined #lisp 15:52:54 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [] 15:56:03 Harag: Joe Celko had one good book on SQL last I remember (the purple one, around 1997) and now he has a whole series in amazon. 10 books or so :-) 16:00:00 dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-173-115.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:00:41 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-173-115.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 16:00:44 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:17 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 16:02:35 sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:02:36 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:32 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:04:58 -!- splittist [i=50a9827e@gateway/web/freenode/x-elgthjelwivnhaqv] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 16:06:17 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:20 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 16:08:13 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:26 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:31 Reaver [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 16:10:22 blue112 [n=Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has joined #lisp 16:10:23 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:28 Hi here ! 16:10:50 -!- ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 16:10:57 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:02 Hi there! 16:13:10 I'm here 16:22:02 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:27:06 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-53-213.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:27:11 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslem221.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:29 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:30:49 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:25 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:35:10 *fusss* is reading the source code for 3BSD and is frowning 16:36:09 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:36:27 milanj [n=milan@93.87.249.17] has joined #lisp 16:36:53 the source code the dc(1) and ed(1) commands are priceless 16:37:24 -!- lithper2_ [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:57 no parentheses? 16:38:29 "The C script is not complete; use at your own risk." -- they considered C "scripting" :-) 16:38:37 fusss: copyright by Mastercard ? 16:38:38 lispm: no taste 16:38:57 fe[nl]ix: huh? 16:39:20 fusss: really? Wasn't it csh? 16:39:45 pjb: pure C 16:39:55 it predates C shell 16:40:07 time stamps are 1979; older than me 16:40:31 oh, nm, there is C shell 16:40:48 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:52 but the scripting remark refers to C source 16:41:25 jyujin_ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:27 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:41:27 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:41:27 -!- foom2 [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:41:27 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:41:27 -!- kingdon [i=yebyen@irie-arch.rit.edu] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:41:27 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:41:27 -!- rlonstein [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] 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[i=lonstein@207.200.6.75] has joined #lisp 16:41:40 cupe [n=cupe@213.133.102.28] has joined #lisp 16:41:40 Well, we write scripts in lisp, so why not in C. I mean, it's more objectionnable than any other C programming... 16:41:40 peddie [n=peddie@18.224.0.58] has joined #lisp 16:41:41 Tabmow [i=terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 16:41:41 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 16:41:42 prip [n=_prip@79.36.128.226] has joined #lisp 16:41:47 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 16:41:48 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 16:41:49 Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@130.34.188.206] has joined #lisp 16:41:50 s/more/not more/ 16:41:56 Aisling_ [i=ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 16:41:57 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 16:41:59 jamesstanley [n=james@82-33-61-156.cable.ubr06.stav.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:41:59 Scripts for what? 16:42:00 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@64.254.167.152] has joined #lisp 16:42:02 mikezor [n=mikael@213.112.233.227] has joined #lisp 16:42:03 johs [n=johs@80.91.224.246] has joined #lisp 16:42:08 Welcome back everybody! 16:42:09 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 16:42:11 Wraithan [n=wraithan@74.207.234.252] has joined #lisp 16:42:17 People tend to abuse that word a lot. 16:42:54 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 16:43:01 it has a lisp implementation that seems to be sophisticated enough to use vfork 16:43:27 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.19] has joined #lisp 16:44:13 lithper2 [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 16:44:27 Opus 30 Franz Lisp 16:44:38 Q for Mac OS X 10.6 users: 16:44:52 -!- aking_ is now known as aking 16:44:58 Tried the 'Menlo' font for editing Lisp source? 16:45:16 'Menlo' is a replacement from Apple for 'Monaco' 16:45:18 kom_ [n=el@brain.cx] has joined #lisp 16:46:19 *foo* - the *s are now much lower and aligned with lowercase characters 16:46:46 -!- linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:47:52 -!- blue112 [n=Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has quit ["May the kebab be with you"] 16:48:30 the notorious bourne shell source code, the CLISP of the 70s 16:48:45 at least the code is not German 16:49:44 ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 16:50:13 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has quit ["leaving"] 16:50:42 lispm: cool, I shall. 16:51:06 Xach [n=xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:17 let me know what you think if you try it out 16:51:52 it's hard to get away from 'Monaco' after such a long time ;-) 16:53:26 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:53:37 pkhuong: I'm trying to track down why (sb-kernel:%simple-fun-type (compile nil '(lambda (x &REST r) (declare (fixnum x)) (declare (values fixnum)) (if r (1+ x) (1- x))))) does not derive the return type. If you change &REST with &OPTIONAL, it does derive. 16:53:40 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:53:41 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:54:15 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:55:40 All I know so far is that the XEP's tail-set-type becomes watered down, but I can't find where that happens. Try to trace SB-C::DEFINITION-TYPE 16:55:52 Are you familiar with that area? 16:58:43 Xach: Are you still running that years-old sbcl instance? 16:59:20 tcr: No. 16:59:36 tcr: not really. 16:59:36 1.0.6 is the oldest i have now 17:01:55 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:04:38 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 17:05:49 -!- snowbeard [n=user@cpe-065-190-191-189.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:12 -!- rrice [n=rrice@72-254-85-241.client.stsn.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:11:34 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:42 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 17:19:07 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:04 exu0 [n=u@188.105.137.18] has joined #lisp 17:21:54 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-81.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 17:23:59 -!- guenthr_ is now known as guenthr 17:24:33 Beeff [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:25:05 something weird happened in the new lispworks 17:25:47 I eval user input directly for some small math stuff, and I dynamically bind vars like pi/2 pi/4 etc for convenience 17:25:50 with progv 17:25:56 you should be used to alien technology by now ;) 17:26:03 yeah :) 17:26:33 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f664e52-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Client Quit] 17:26:34 linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #lisp 17:26:38 it suddenly stopped working in lispworks 6, but it still works in the repl 17:26:51 Beeff: In what way does it not work? 17:27:08 let me pastebin 17:27:57 yvdriess pasted "progv weirdness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93622 17:28:30 works fine in the repl 17:28:44 but tells me 'pi/2 unbound' when I run it in the 'production' code 17:28:54 so something tells me it has something to do with packages 17:29:43 I doubt that 17:29:44 as if it now looks at the package when it didn't care before in lispworks 5.0 17:30:05 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:23 -!- Reaver [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 17:30:30 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:33 well the macro progv/macro expand is in another package than the code that interns the (- pi/2) code passed to the eval 17:31:21 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.212.98] has joined #lisp 17:32:11 are you sure progv does what you think it does? 17:32:23 ok that's probably it, I remember fiddling with the parsing/read 17:32:25 yeah 17:33:09 otherwise it works for me 17:33:37 perhaps you read your input in a different package? 17:34:18 nite 17:34:27 -!- PuffTheMagic [n=quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:34:53 stassats`, indeed 17:35:46 a (let ((*package* (find-package ...))) in above the read should do it 17:35:57 makes me feel so dirty :( 17:36:25 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.249.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:52 is there a 'nice' way to pass along and work with symbols across packages? 17:37:08 keywords 17:37:09 there're keyword symbols 17:37:17 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:37:26 rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 17:37:43 clhs w-s-i-s 17:37:43 WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_std_.htm 17:38:19 though, keeping everything in cl-user might not be a good idea 17:38:37 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:38:38 is that any different from keeping everything in cl-user though 17:38:54 but I think that's a nicer solution, thanks! 17:39:29 s/cl-user/keyword package 17:39:44 keywords are constant, you can't bind them 17:40:14 ah! good point, I can't use keywords then 17:40:43 You can write a macro which expands to progv and interns the symbols in *package* 17:41:27 perhaps you can customize lispworks in a way to slurp that macro around some point in its repl 17:42:19 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7565d2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:43 making sure the parser's read is in the same package as the progv/eval should already do it I think 17:44:15 you could maybe use a closure, probably a little too awkward though 17:44:26 -!- swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:45:14 -!- madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["leaving"] 17:45:48 PuffTheMagic [n=quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 17:52:53 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:55:29 -!- ramus [n=ramus@99.23.128.54] has quit ["leaving"] 17:56:20 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:57:30 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:47 -!- kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:58:19 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:58:29 konr [n=user@187.88.249.226] has joined #lisp 17:59:02 ramus [n=ramus@99.23.136.124] has joined #lisp 17:59:23 srp [n=srp@115.118.182.91] has joined #lisp 17:59:35 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:00:07 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:02:19 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.226] has joined #lisp 18:02:59 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-33-191.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:04:15 For some reason the return type of the XEP _is_ derived, but for the entry-point lambdas of its optional-dispatch not 18:05:14 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:11 is cl-smtp the best choice for sending emails? 18:06:34 dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-173-115.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:07:46 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:08:47 BTW, nice feature of trivial-features: when it doesn't recognize your architecture, it pushes :NIL into *features*. So that all your #+nil code comes to life! 18:09:06 Madsy [n=madman@ti0207a340-1181.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:09:32 heh 18:10:08 ivan4th: That'll teach you :) 18:10:39 not to use trivial-features? :-P 18:11:02 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11:11 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-113-230.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:13:10 sellout: actually I've got greeted by ASDF after loading saved image (under CLISP/Maemo Fremantle): "The author of this file habitually uses #+nil to comment out forms. But don't worry, it was unlikely to work in the New Implementation of Lisp anyway" 18:13:37 -!- ramus [n=ramus@99.23.136.124] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:13:41 ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-154-133.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:09 ivan4th, yet another reason why #+nil is bad and CL should have a simple a proper way to uncomment sexps 18:17:35 levente_meszaros: #-(and) is technically proper :-) 18:18:16 tcr, yes, but obviously isn't simple :( 18:20:23 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:21:02 I'm curious, what do you mean by uncomment sexps? 18:21:03 I vote for #; for commenting out sexps 18:21:12 *dlowe* adds it to snarc. 18:21:37 ah like an sexps in the middle of a line 18:22:20 and on multiple lines I assume 18:22:40 why doesn't #| ... |# work for that? 18:22:47 hehe laziness 18:22:51 doesn't balance automatically 18:24:15 Beeff, it works, it's just not simple 18:24:19 symbol macro of a gensym that is set to false on the top-level? :p 18:24:35 #-my-false-macro 18:25:04 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:25:30 rrice1 [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 18:25:44 oh, what about encoding SAT problems in uncommenting sexps? 18:26:04 dlowe, I also like #; except SLIME does not understand it 18:26:19 -!- rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:28 neither does lispworks 18:26:45 levente_meszaros: that's not an unsolvable problem :) 18:27:06 dlowe, right, I just don't have enough time/knowledge to do that 18:27:46 even though I already have #; set up in my image 18:29:27 Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.209.235] has joined #lisp 18:32:13 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-24-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:33:28 -!- rrice1 [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:10 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:12 rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 18:34:53 Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-213.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:35:13 dlowe pasted "Commenting out sexp with #;" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93624 18:35:21 ramus_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-153-43.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:28 -!- srp [n=srp@115.118.182.91] has quit [] 18:35:56 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-crltwahbshmibtdo] has joined #lisp 18:36:39 well, the integer argument may not be that usable after all 18:37:11 -!- joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit ["brb"] 18:37:12 No? Why not? 18:37:16 an inline comment would be more important 18:38:04 *shrug* it's optional in any case 18:38:17 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-24-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:38:23 other the commenting out a keyword argument with its value 18:38:36 that's the only case when I put subsequent uncomments in the source 18:38:42 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:38:57 but being able to put an inline explanation would be better 18:38:59 I've seen it before in production code. It's fairly unsightly. 18:39:06 I don't have a good idea for the syntax 18:39:09 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:39:23 #;"Here is my inline comment" works 18:39:33 #;2 in your case 18:39:51 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 18:39:57 you also want to comment out something other than your comment :) 18:39:57 hm? #; defaults to 1 sexp skipped 18:40:20 use ; just to put in a comment 18:40:31 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 18:40:32 oh, I see 18:40:47 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:40:48 maybe I could live with ; the following is commented out for such and such reasons #; (foo-bar) 18:40:50 anyway, that's #2;"Commenting this out because it sucks" foo 18:41:08 #;2 you mean 18:41:12 -!- linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:21 well, not that bad after all 18:41:25 and it's optional 18:41:55 anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:05 except that SLIME will break on it 18:42:09 -!- Beeff [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:42:23 C-c C-c and coloring and who knows what else 18:42:40 doesn't matter with C-c, since it doesn't break paren balancing 18:42:50 but yeah, coloring will be screwed 18:43:07 it does 18:43:09 It's #2; btw. just looked it up 18:43:09 ; 18:43:15 oh. yeah. 18:43:16 hm 18:43:21 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 18:43:58 don't have time to figure out how to twiddle SLIME to support it today. 18:44:11 what kind of support? 18:44:19 shouldn't be hard - just follow the lead of #+nil and #+(and) 18:44:29 er, #-(and) 18:45:08 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:27 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.90.230] has left #lisp 18:45:52 tcr: making SLIME know that #; comments out the next sexp 18:46:10 well you can use named-readtables 18:46:37 for the fontification bits... getting #+/#- to be fontified correctly approximately all the time was really hard 18:46:48 -!- rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:46:54 rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 18:47:42 but as it's there now, adapting it should be possible 18:47:56 this would be a simpler case, I think 18:48:11 tcr, without putting the in-readtable forms in the source? 18:48:22 tcr, #; also breaks C-c C-c 18:48:53 *dlowe* notes that you can define #; and still be a conforming implementation. nudge nudge. 18:49:01 you can set *readtable-alist* appropriately. I have a patch where you can set *readtable-alist* to a function 18:49:41 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A6357E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:15 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 18:51:14 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:52:21 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 18:52:35 *Xach* misses prompt.franz.com 18:52:36 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:08 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:53:09 where's prompt.sbcl.org? :) 18:53:10 -!- rotty_ is now known as rotty 18:53:43 probably somewhere on tech.coop 18:54:04 Whoever sets that up would have to be pretty good at securing systems. 18:55:07 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-105-135.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:01 I keep thinking there's some royal road to doing that via reader tricks. 18:56:04 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 18:56:16 Something jsnell probably has figured out, but is keeping to himself so we can learn on our own... 18:56:51 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:22 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:00:32 an sbcl-os image running on a vm? 19:01:36 -!- ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-154-133.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:01:44 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 19:02:21 ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-146-135.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:56 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:02:59 hell no. the way you keep it secure is by sandboxing the process 19:03:05 Does anyone know of a Lisp networking guide? Sort of like Beej's guide, but with Lisp instead of C 19:03:11 Probably it's safe enough to run as an unpriv user in a VM with no network access, and with only read-only filesystems. 19:03:55 trying to keep it secure by constraining access to dangerous stuff on the language level would be basically impossible 19:04:01 -!- jsnell_ is now known as jsnell 19:04:51 and yet, google's app engine's python is heavily sandboxed in the language runtime. 19:04:56 (that always puzzled me) 19:04:58 jamesstanley: you might be able to divine from http://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/api-docs.shtml 19:05:06 ok 19:05:06 thank you 19:06:53 konr` [n=user@189.96.105.86] has joined #lisp 19:06:55 spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 19:07:14 well, I was thinking specifically of a "safe" sbcl runtime 19:08:08 an interpreted language or a vm that was designed from the start with a security model are obviously more feasible 19:08:49 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:53 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.91.234] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:08:53 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:56 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.249.226] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:10:01 gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:38 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:11:02 -!- Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:07 Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 19:13:22 both gsll and clnuplot define 'histogram, how to use the two packages in defpackage? 19:13:23 UnwashedMeme: i have installed the module but i don't know how to use it 19:13:29 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f6626db-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 19:13:36 UnwashedMeme: i mean, i don't know how to include/link it with lisp 19:13:37 I want the one from clnuplot. 19:13:53 so, google got a patent on map/reduce 19:14:42 jamesstanley: you probably want to link it in with ASDF http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/, which you most likely already have 19:14:51 ok 19:14:53 what platform are you on, sbcl? 19:14:58 clisp 19:15:38 i can use sbcl if it's better 19:15:40 i have it as well 19:15:47 in the repl, can you evaluate asdf:*central-registry* 19:16:03 i just remembered why i prefer clisp: tab completion 19:16:11 yes i can UnwashedMeme 19:16:18 shall i paste? 19:16:44 if you can understand the output itself, that is telling you where asdf will search for the libraries 19:16:54 ok 19:17:02 /usr/share/common-lisp/systems looks most likely 19:17:07 you need to make sure there is a symbolic link between one of those places and the usocket.asd file 19:17:12 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:17 wouldn't apt do that when i installed cl-usocket? 19:17:32 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:34 UnwashedMeme: there is a usocket.asd in that directory 19:17:36 hmm 19:17:36 btw, using clisp or sbcl or any of them, you really want to be using SLIME, which gives you autocomplete and more 19:17:52 i don't like having my interpreter in the same window as my text editor 19:17:56 even though i use emacs ayway 19:18:10 jamesstanley: C-x 5 2 :) 19:18:23 makes a new x window? 19:18:23 slime puts it in a separate buffer, and is so incredibly useful that you want it anyways ;-) 19:18:42 dlowe: thanks, i never knew that either 19:18:45 Snamich [n=Snamich@161.210.79.194] has joined #lisp 19:18:50 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.209.235] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:53 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:14 minion: tell jamesstanley about slime 19:19:15 jamesstanley: have a look at slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 19:19:19 i know about slime 19:19:20 i have it 19:19:21 ok 19:19:23 i just don't like it ;) 19:19:43 (i've never gotten to use the minion for that purpose and it seemed like i might finally have an opportunity ;-) 19:19:51 and before i do anything else i need to find out what is making the fonts so huge in x 19:20:09 UnwashedMeme: when i do "M-x slime" 19:20:10 anyways, if the asd file is in place 19:20:24 it says something about polling /tmp/slime. 19:20:42 Polling "/tmp/slime.15524".. (Abort with `M-x slime-abort-connection'.) [127 times] 19:20:56 sbcl comes up and seems to work 19:21:07 look in *inferior-lisp* buffer 19:21:22 yeah i know it's there and it works 19:21:32 but in *Messages* it gives the impression that it's not working 19:22:13 -!- rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:22:19 do you have the inferior-lisp-program set to sbcl or clisp? 19:22:20 rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 19:22:36 whatever the default is 19:23:02 it looks like i used to have sbcl but i commented all of the slime stuff out because it made emacs start up more slowly 19:23:39 -!- ramus_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-153-43.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:24:39 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation is the official guide, you're going to have to get help from the others here on that as I have a very strange setup and don't know much about the official one :-/ 19:24:47 ok 19:24:57 either way, once you have a REPL, and the asd file in place 19:25:04 yeah that's what i had before 19:25:07 the stuff on that page 19:25:08 you should be able to run (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :usocket) that will load the library 19:25:13 ok 19:25:15 thanks 19:29:17 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:55 anyone around that wouldn't mind making some comments on a newbie's code to see how I can make it better? 19:30:05 Intensity [i=[6XRnEbE@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 19:30:36 Snamich: paste it, maybe someone will have something to say 19:30:39 lisppaste: url? 19:30:39 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:31:26 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229106115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 19:32:39 linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #lisp 19:33:29 varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:34:01 Snamich pasted "fast input" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93627 19:34:26 Snamich: use PARSE-INTEGER 19:34:42 UnwashedMeme: another thing i don't like about slime mode: one misplaced click and you start typing in the middle of the output 19:34:43 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:34:46 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.2"] 19:34:47 that's neat, thanks 19:34:49 what's up with that? why doesn't it act like a terminal emulator? 19:34:57 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 19:35:05 jamesstanley: why should it? 19:35:08 well, I was using (parse-integer (read)) but it was slower 19:35:15 why would you possibly want to type in the middle of the output? 19:35:33 kami` [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 19:35:35 hello 19:35:38 jamesstanley: so, don't type in the middle of the output 19:35:45 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:35:51 Snamich: if you're using READ, then it converts integers already 19:35:52 so I concocted that to try to make the input faster and it was just slightly faster with less conses 19:36:03 okay 19:36:16 Snamich: it might be easier if you told us what this was supposed to do? 19:36:24 wait, yeah, the original thing I had was (parse-integer (read-line)) 19:36:35 then I was using (read) but it was still too slow 19:36:49 Snamich: don't construct a list of characters, jut construct new integer while reading from stream 19:37:02 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.82.56] has joined #lisp 19:37:45 Kludgy [n=Kludgy@S01060012174cbcf9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:52 something like (loop for char = (read-char stream) for digit = (digit-char-p char) for integer = digit then (+ digit (* 10) integer) finally return integer) 19:38:08 (* 10 integer) 19:38:18 Snamich: so this is supposed to read in a number of integers, then output the number of integers that are multiples of a divisor? 19:38:35 the code is supposed to read in two numbers, the first is the number of cases to follow after the 2nd input and the 2nd input is a divisor to be used later, then it is supposed to read input and see how many numbers are divisible by the divisor 19:38:59 sounds like a SPOJ problem 19:39:02 it's a problem off of codechef.com that I'm using just to try to get used to the language 19:39:11 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:15 and the code I posted was able to pass it, but just barely 19:39:25 Snamich: I recommend you not store all the integers. it's pointless if you just want to keep a count 19:39:40 just test them as I process them? 19:39:45 Snamich: sure 19:39:50 okay 19:40:15 Snamich: and did you see my comment? 19:40:20 reading it now 19:41:58 using binary streams might be also faster on unicoded sbcl builds 19:42:42 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:45 I tried to get into using those but it was a bit out there for me 19:42:56 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:43:04 UnwashedMeme: hmm... even when i setq inferior-lisp-program to clisp in my .emacs, slime runs sbcl 19:43:07 I'll write something up using both to get some more practice, thanks guys 19:43:34 what platform are you on james? 19:43:38 debian lenny 19:43:45 x86 19:43:48 emacs22 19:43:50 ah, okay 19:44:03 all the various values of "platform" 19:44:53 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:45:26 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:45:30 jamesstanley: when you added the setq, did you restart emacs, or evaluate that expression otherwise (alternative if you M-x describe-variable does the new value show up)? 19:45:54 i restarted emacs 19:46:02 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-182.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:46:10 yes the new value shows up 19:46:15 any errors during startup? darn 19:46:34 where would errors be? *Messages*? 19:46:35 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 19:46:38 yeah 19:46:51 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:52 only the one about polling /tmp/slime. 19:47:08 dlowe annotated #93627 "Here's my loopy solution" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93627#1 19:47:09 anything from before that during the startup? 19:47:16 before you tried running slime 19:47:17 no errors 19:47:22 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 19:47:24 wait 19:47:25 Snamich: ^^ 19:47:30 UnwashedMeme: that only comes up after i do M-x slime 19:47:41 wow, a lot cleaner 19:47:50 UnwashedMeme: there are no errors if i do not start slime 19:47:53 thanks, I'll give that a shot and see how it works out 19:48:00 Snamich: now, granted, that has just about zero error-checking 19:48:15 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.212.98] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:48:30 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-182.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:42 jamesstanley: did you get a recent slime from cvs or did you get tarball/deb package? 19:48:46 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 19:48:49 i got it out of apt 19:48:51 so a deb 19:48:55 jamesstanley: don't do that, ever! 19:49:20 ??? you'd like me to run linux from scratch? 19:49:27 jamesstanley: quickly, remove anything debian installed that relates to lisp save for sbcl, download clbuild, and do it from there. 19:49:28 or by "ever" do you mean "with lisp stuff"? 19:49:33 with lisp stuff 19:49:36 ok 19:49:48 cl-build is a good way to go 19:49:49 not just remove, purge 19:49:52 i use debian everywhere, but lisp is installed through clbuild 19:49:56 yes.. purge 19:49:58 with fire! 19:50:01 out of interest 19:50:02 why? 19:50:15 i run debian so that i don't have to worry about instability 19:50:24 i trust the debian people to get working things and put them together in to a distribution 19:50:43 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-15-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:47 well, they failed with lisp 19:50:59 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:51:02 jamesstanley: i trust debian with unix things, and lisp with lisp things. 19:51:22 jamesstanley: while debian in general does a good job on that, slime and many other lisp packages don't spend much effort getting itself packaged and included in the various distributions and instead just takes the lazier "Get it from cvs" approach 19:51:49 or if you prefer git, there is a mirror on github http://github.com/nablaone/slime/ 19:51:53 jamesstanley: basically... the problems a lisp developer has to solve, and the problems a distributor have to solve, are somewhat at odds, and in debian they oftimes conflict 19:51:54 ok how would i go about removing everything lisp related? 19:52:05 I dunno why you'd bother doing that. 19:52:11 jamesstanley: apt-get remove --purge common-lisp-controller 19:52:12 Even if you use clbuild, having the debian packages too doesn't hurt you 19:52:16 that's the big one 19:52:22 foom: that's not true with slime 19:52:29 foom: slime is the big one. 19:52:32 Oh? What happens with slime? 19:52:34 drewc: it said it set a load of stuff to manually installed when i tried to install some stuff 19:53:00 jamesstanley: well, kill it with fire! :) 19:53:50 ok it removed it all for me anyway apparently 19:54:05 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:23 foom: it's loaded from site-wide emacs configuration 19:54:40 happycube [n=cpage@208.1.239.35] has joined #lisp 19:55:49 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:53 well, it's setup so that it autoloads from the site-wide emacs config 19:55:54 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:01 ok so i installed slime with clbuild 19:56:03 grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:56:03 I'd think that it'd still work to load a different slime after that 19:56:11 Couldn't load "/usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/swank-loader.lisp": file does not exist 19:56:19 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:30 that's it... 19:56:39 jamesstanley: that's the location for the debian slime file 19:56:51 ok 19:56:59 jamesstanley: did you purge slime and cl-swank? 19:57:04 ah 19:57:09 common-lisp-controller didn't remove those 19:57:18 ah. (setq slime-backend 19:57:18 "/usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/swank-loader.lisp") 19:57:36 (in the debian slime config). I guess loading a different slime afterwards doesn't reset that 19:57:43 "E: dpkg was interrupted, you must manually run 'dpkg --configure -a' to correct the problem." how about you run it for me? lazy program 19:59:08 Now I purged slime and cl-swank, and did "clbuild install slime", and now emacs tells me that it can't load slime when it's reading my .emacs 19:59:33 cause clbuild's slime isn't in a systemwide directory 19:59:39 so if your emacs is trying to require slime, it doesn't know where to find it 19:59:40 well where is it? 19:59:54 (i was intrigued as to how it managed to do that without requiring root actually) 19:59:57 I dunno, I don't use it through clbuild. go look where it installed it. :) 20:00:28 ~/clbuild/source/slime/slime.el 20:00:28 minion: tell me about slime.mov 20:00:28 stassats`: please look at slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 20:00:30 is that what i want? 20:01:13 erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:01:50 jamesstanley: run ./clbuild slime ? 20:01:58 -!- erg_ is now known as erg 20:02:12 same error message about me loading it from .emacs, but it starts sbcl 20:02:23 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.215.171] has joined #lisp 20:02:25 what error message? 20:02:35 An error has occurred while loading `/home/james/.emacs': 20:02:35 File error: Cannot open load file, slime 20:03:14 run ./clbuild slime-configuration 20:03:24 aha 20:03:32 and put its output into .emacs instead 20:03:36 yeah 20:03:42 -!- Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-213.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:04:41 there is a /lot/ of output when i start emacs 20:04:44 and then it starts a repl 20:04:58 lots of stuff about deleting unreachable code and illegal function calls 20:05:22 don't pay attention 20:05:42 ??? 20:05:55 does it bother you? 20:05:58 yes 20:06:07 but possibly more importantly is this final message: 20:06:12 ;; Error while loading: /home/james/.slime/fasl/2010-01-14/sbcl-1.0.25.debian-linux-x86/swank-rpc.fasl 20:06:12 ;; Condition: The value SWANK-RPC::BODY is not of type LIST. 20:06:12 ;; Aborting. 20:06:17 after this the repl seems to work anyway 20:06:18 oh well 20:06:20 cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:28 that's the last commit 20:06:42 last commit to what? 20:06:43 cvs? 20:06:52 isn't this why i said i was using apt instead of cvs in the first place? 20:07:31 wait, i'll look at it 20:07:47 and it hasn't fixed the polling /tmp/slime. stuff anyway; that still happens 20:08:22 right, slime is currently broken in cvs, you're lucky 20:08:29 lucky? 20:08:41 yes, it wasn't broken yesterday 20:08:46 why would people commit a broken version btw? 20:08:54 you ask me? 20:08:57 ok 20:09:00 jamesstanley: that's slime for ya 20:09:10 i'll try to fix it ASAP 20:09:19 thank you very much 20:09:54 don't feel you have to rush or anything, i'm in no particular hurry 20:10:03 (that sounded sarcastic, it wasn't) 20:10:21 joswig [n=joswig@g224047086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:34 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:26 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 20:12:34 lizzzy [i=7aac0daa@gateway/web/freenode/x-rsywtqukwaujvmhh] has joined #lisp 20:12:39 oh yeah, not having :use :cl in a defpackage form 20:13:24 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.226] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:13:33 sbcl doesn't use any packages by default if :use is omitted 20:13:57 i see 20:14:36 jamesstanley: i've commited a fix, it'll hit anonymous cvs in 15 mintues, in the mean time you can put (:use :cl) in swank-rpc.lisp 20:14:54 thank you :) 20:15:16 stassats`: before the defpackage stuff? 20:15:33 (defpackage :swank-rpc (:use :cl) ...) 20:15:39 ok 20:15:42 that's "inside" 20:15:48 oh yes you said before 20:15:48 sorry 20:16:37 stassats`: it now works! 20:16:46 it puts me at a thing saying CL-USER instead of * 20:16:51 and the polling stuff has gone from the minibuffer 20:16:52 thank you 20:17:01 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:05 so this is why slime is nice 20:17:12 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:17:14 it looked quite ugly before and i didn't really see the appeal 20:17:19 but it looks a lot cleaner and more friendly now 20:17:27 -!- Snamich [n=Snamich@161.210.79.194] has quit [] 20:17:40 ah! and the errors appear in a /different/ buffer 20:17:40 nice 20:17:48 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177144099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:53 and you can click on the restarts! 20:17:55 awesome 20:18:01 and much much more other stuff 20:18:43 and stuff no one knows about 20:18:50 hmm 20:18:51 ? 20:18:59 Snamich [n=Snamich@161.210.79.194] has joined #lisp 20:19:09 jamesstanley: it's hard to discover new features 20:19:14 ok 20:19:24 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:29 minion: tell jamesstanley about slime.mov 20:19:30 jamesstanley: please see slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 20:19:31 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:19:39 it's slightly outdated, but still good 20:19:39 ok i'll watch it 20:19:52 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:20:03 there should be a sequel some day 20:20:59 is there a youtube version? 20:21:08 the video is buffering sloooowly 20:21:22 jamesstanley: they are not usually errors btw, probably just warnings 20:21:40 -!- rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:21:40 i meant errors with stuff i typed in 20:21:48 jamesstanley: I seem to recall a google video version 20:21:52 ok 20:22:20 rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 20:22:25 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 20:22:50 dlowe: i think i've found it 20:22:51 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:59 thanks 20:23:29 i think tcr should do the sequel as a followup to his blog post series 20:23:43 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 20:23:53 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 20:24:48 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:26:44 semyon421 [n=semyon@188.162.28.186] has joined #lisp 20:28:29 I installed usocket with clbuild, and I put "(push "/home/james/clbuild/systems" asdf:*central-registry*)" in my ~/.sbclrc, but when I do "(asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :usocket)", sbcl says "component "usocket" not found" 20:28:46 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A34DC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:23 shouldn't the path end with /? 20:29:26 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:31 i can do that if it should 20:29:38 yes 20:29:42 clhs merge-pathnames 20:29:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge_.htm 20:29:45 can't it just notice that it's a directory and append it's own /? 20:29:45 ^ that's why 20:30:16 jamesstanley: no.. what if it's also a file? 20:30:28 where i come from you can't have directories with the same names as files 20:30:31 jamesstanley: your filesystem is not the only type to have ever existed 20:30:55 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit ["sleeping"] 20:31:03 if it knows that i can only specify a directory for that 20:31:19 then it's fairly obvious that i mean the directory not the file, even if i were on some system where they can share a name 20:31:21 jamesstanley: do you know that it's a directory? why not tell lisp when you tell it where the file is? 20:31:35 gah 20:31:53 ok it works if i put the slash on the end 20:31:59 thank you all 20:32:27 -!- rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:29 rrice1 [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 20:32:29 (when /i/ write software i always allow the user to decide whether or not to add a trailing slash) 20:32:45 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-53-213.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:33:01 "to much DWIM will kill you" 20:33:39 i can not conceive of a situation where the user would want to specify a file in a directory option 20:33:53 jamesstanley: good for you! when you write an programming langauge specification, there will be people smart enough to stop you from doing that! :) 20:34:01 (hopefully) 20:34:09 jamesstanley: why are you using strings as pathnames anyways? 20:34:19 if you want to be specific, be specific! 20:34:22 *Xach* hopes to start a rad new trend of logical pathname use 20:34:23 because it's a command line option 20:34:29 (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute "home" "drewc" "clbuild" "systems")) 20:34:36 jamesstanley: it would be better in today's world if the CL specification had not been written in this way, but that's what we have to deal with -- or start using incompatible per-implementation stuff. 20:34:38 it's also a c program 20:34:54 Xach: I hope that everyone understands the need for trailing semicolons in their pathnames! 20:35:06 Xach: i'm awaiting your research with baited breath! :) 20:35:20 oh, there's one gotcha that that's just reminded me of: what's the directory component of "LPNHOST:"? 20:35:46 there are two reasonable answers, neither one ideal 20:36:04 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 20:36:12 minion: tell jamesstanley about cl-fad 20:36:13 jamesstanley: please see cl-fad: CL-FAD is a portable pathname library based on code from Peter Seibel's book Practical Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-fad 20:36:22 ok 20:36:38 drewc: I'm afraid you'll have to be patient. No need to rush, CL will be around for a while. 20:36:45 jamesstanley: (cl-fad:pathname-as-directory "/home/drewc/clbuild/systems") 20:37:01 so erm 20:37:07 ok 20:37:29 jamesstanley: if you're reading PCL as your intro to lisp, the code is in the book. 20:37:54 i was reading pcl 20:37:58 has anyone tried the corman lisp ide? it has a window called worksheet, something between a repl and a scract window, like slime-scratch but also displays the outputs in the same window starting with a newline, very simple thing but it comes very handy sometimes, do you know if there is something similar in slime 20:37:59 but i sort of stopped 20:38:27 jamesstanley: what are you using now? paip? 20:38:38 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:38:41 gibranian: this can be done easily 20:38:46 drewc: as an introduction? 20:38:50 same thing i used with c 20:38:52 trial and error ;) 20:39:10 no i'm going to continue reading pcl when i've got all the slime stuff sorted to my satisfaction 20:39:15 Krystof: I'm intrigued, can you explain the case for both answers? 20:39:27 jamesstanley: so you're teaching yourself eh? there's a problem with that... your teacher is ignorant! :) 20:39:34 heheh 20:39:44 Xach: let me see if I can remember 20:39:50 the obvious one is '(:absolute) 20:39:59 jamesstanley: PCL answers the question you asked the channel regarding pathnames, btw... perhaps it's not a bad idea to finish it? 20:40:06 mhmm 20:40:10 i intend to finish it 20:40:12 gibranian: well, it already does that, C-j after the expression in the slime-scratch 20:40:14 Krystof: yes, that seems like the obvious one to me, too, based on 19.3.1.1.3 20:40:21 but only if you're not using paredit 20:40:27 -!- Intensity [i=[6XRnEbE@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:07 jamesstanley: my piano teacher used to yell at me when i tried to teach myself.. if you're practicing the wrong thing, all you're doing is getting better at being wrong... maybe not the most productive use of time :) 20:41:18 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 20:41:22 Xach: hey, I'm not sure I read that carefully enough 20:41:34 or maybe it was that clisp or something implemented '(:relative) anyway 20:41:42 i'll type it slower: 19.3.1.1.3 20:41:45 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:52 that was very slow 20:41:58 I'm having trouble getting clisp to produce answers I expect :( 20:41:59 I could almost see each character appear in sequence 20:42:00 clhs 19.3.1.1.3 20:42:00 20:42:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_caac.htm 20:42:49 *drewc* 's eyes glaze over 20:42:51 *Xach* is still gathering info and testing things, so doesn't get *too* discouraged yet 20:43:05 jamesstanley: my piano teacher used to yell at me when i tried to teach myself.. if you're practicing the wrong thing, all you're doing is getting better at being wrong... maybe not the most productive use of time :) 20:43:07 i disagree 20:43:11 if you know what music you like, play it 20:43:14 who cares what anyone else thinks? 20:43:39 jamesstanley: if your technique is causing you to play slower, and cause injury, it's not a matter of what anybody thinks. 20:43:43 stassats`: ok, that was just what i meant, thank you:) 20:43:44 That attitude works great in an orchestra setting, too. 20:43:51 Preferably among kettledrum players. 20:43:53 jamesstanley: you are objectively doing harm. 20:44:04 yes but you will notice 20:44:06 when it starts to hurt 20:44:10 and then you can correct your technique 20:44:20 jamesstanley: how? you don't know that the correct technique is? 20:44:32 brute force! 20:44:37 sing it brother 20:44:45 in fact, you're convinced your techique is right because "who cares what anyone else thinks" 20:44:53 I got a "Playing to his own tune" "award" in high school for "playing every part but his own" for the marching band. :) 20:45:11 It's not like anyone can hear a clarinet in marching bands anyways, so it's all good. 20:45:22 drewc: just because you don't copy other people all the time doesn't mean you're not allowed to change your mind... 20:45:25 (by the way, if one of my programmers ever said to me "who cares what anyone else thinks" when talking about their code, they would not have a job after that conversation) 20:45:25 gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:54 drewc: wow it's easy to be fired by you! :) 20:45:56 ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-29-179.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:46:11 foom: that's the second person i've fired today! 20:46:15 poor Feynman 20:46:21 he would have made a terrible programmer 20:46:27 hahaha 20:46:28 lucky he was a physicist then 20:46:31 (he was a physicist, right?) 20:46:34 ... and a programmer 20:46:44 wasn't he responsible for some parts of the connection machine? 20:46:48 (it's very hard to get fired by me... only because it's hard to get hired :)) 20:46:49 and, while we're at it, a percussionist 20:46:58 antifuchs: the part that didn't work ;) 20:46:59 ticking all Xach's boxes 20:47:09 he wasn't named Erik 20:47:18 (minor box, that) 20:47:47 *Krystof* has visions of a hybrid of Feynman and Naggum. "You insufferable moron! I don't care what you think!" 20:48:02 -!- rullie_ is now known as rullie 20:48:26 (coupled with extreme technical correctness and an implementation of QCD in 50 lines of dense lisp) 20:49:04 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=feynman 20:49:45 -!- rrice1 [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:49:52 rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 20:50:03 good show Xach! :) now do pitman! 20:50:28 Does anyone know how to make slime reload sbcl? 20:50:36 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@188.162.28.186] has quit ["leaving"] 20:50:39 jamesstanley: M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp 20:50:43 thank you 20:50:49 or , res RET on the repl 20:50:58 ok 20:51:03 drewc: i'm sure you can construct the appropriate url yourself! 20:51:06 Xach: actually.. i was thinking about that. how hard to take what you have and turn it into a general c.l.l archive? google groups is teh suck after all. 20:51:22 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:51:27 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 20:51:43 billstclai [n=billstcl@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 20:52:00 the search strategy would have to change 20:52:07 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:16 drewc: I'm not sure that's something I want to take on. Part of the technical difficulty in creating it is the fact that the content is fixed and won't ever change. 20:52:16 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-115-128.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:29 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-44-191.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:52:30 the difficulty is reduced by that fact, i mean 20:52:31 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 20:53:03 Krystof: Well, I could invest $5 on a few dozen GB of memory. 20:53:10 there are some situations trying to learn by yourself really help while learning something, i. e. i don't understand why the author choose to use that approach while writing a practical example, and the guidance of her/him only helps me figure the reason of spesific choices in the code, but when i try to write my own practices, 20:53:11 after trying in various ways and fail, i search for practice which has similar problems with mine, and then i figure out the the reasons of approach as a whole. 20:53:42 But the current strategy doesn't scale all that well to 10x or 100x the articles. 20:53:47 i read most of this way. 20:53:58 i read most of PCL this way 20:54:11 *drewc* notes his new server will hold 144GB RAM bigger than the disk on his laptop 20:54:31 , bigger* 20:54:43 drewc: about my "who cares" comment, I would like to clarify that I do like to do the best thing. I don't just write something "as long as it works". I often criticize a friend because he writes code like that. 20:54:45 my new desktop can only hold 16GB. I don't know what I'll do with that little RAM. :( 20:55:15 just don't start firefox 20:55:33 my new "home server" machine has 1GB RAM. the guy at the computer place did look at me funny, though 20:55:34 ah, good call 20:55:36 foom: use the memory modules as down a payment for a fancy car? 20:55:38 that should do it. :) 20:55:46 erm "a down payment" 20:55:50 I haven't found much of a need for 16Gb of RAM.... 20:56:01 drewc: wait a minute. you are getting a machine with 144GB of RAM? 20:56:14 TDT: I only actually bought 4GB for it, that seems like enough. :) 20:56:18 I can see the use of 8, in multiple virtual machines...but, heh. 20:56:23 *stassats`* has 512MB on the desktop... 20:56:24 jamesstanley: no.. it's only got 16 in it.. but it can hold 144GB should i need it. 20:56:30 oh i see 20:56:31 pixpop [n=pixpop@166.205.137.21] has joined #lisp 20:56:33 Yeah, I use 4Gb in my laptop, and it works well...and I run virtual machines. 20:56:41 -!- rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:56 rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 20:58:44 my whole os + sbcl + others works on 256 mb usb flash disk 20:58:56 I would like 8Gb though I think sometime...been doing work with MSSQL a lot more lately, and running that, Linux on top of OSX = almost no memory left. 20:59:29 i couldn't find a way to fit gnu emacs in it but i'll eventually :) 21:00:00 I'm surprised to find I can comfortably run a recentish Firefox with multiple tabs in a VM with 256 MB ram, but then I wonder if it's really swapping frequently but the host OS has the swap space cached in RAM so you don't really notice 21:00:04 gnu emacs is uninteresting without sources 21:00:13 TDT: agree 21:00:54 stassats`: do you mean elisp files by sources? 21:01:04 yes 21:01:16 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.226] has joined #lisp 21:01:20 hefner: probably that, yes (: 21:01:53 hefner: also, if it's firefox in X11, you'll probably get two huge processes, one being firefox, the other the x server (: 21:02:16 *Krystof* remembers when firefox was the lean and mean competitor to mozilla 21:02:52 Krystof: maybe jwz was right about that much 21:02:52 oh, look, someone on "lispforum" got screwed by CCL's idiotic mangling of single quote characters in filenames too 21:02:57 that's the whole point of trying to fit gnu emacs, i'ld use microemacs instead if i didn't need elisp (which i'll need mostly for slime, and simple (?) editor features, i don't use features like gnus) 21:03:05 "your browser is big because your needs are big" 21:03:56 gibranian: well, you could include compiled elisp files 21:04:40 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:05:03 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 21:06:03 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72459b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:16 stassats`: yes, that seems logical 21:08:22 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:27 stassats`: i asked for help from emacs channel to find a way of excluding features like gnus and some other things, they didn't seem to be happy with my idea :) 21:09:22 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@166.205.137.21] has quit [Client Quit] 21:09:26 that's easy, just don't include gnus/ directory 21:10:40 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 21:10:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.91] has joined #lisp 21:10:52 wouldn't that kind of a solution cause errors in emacs, i am not sure the gnus bindings and the gnus menu buttons will disappear. 21:11:06 wait, why don't i simply try it :) 21:11:38 Does anyone know how to make the up arrow go through the history in slime instead of moving the cursor up a line? 21:11:56 jamesstanley: M-p 21:11:57 jamesstanley: use M-p. 21:12:01 ok 21:12:03 thanks 21:12:10 god dammit 21:12:12 i use xmonad 21:12:18 M-p brings up dmenu 21:12:38 also, C-up 21:12:43 cool thanks :) 21:12:43 but it's different from M-p 21:12:57 well it suits me so it's ok 21:13:02 M-p uses current input to search history 21:13:08 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:13:25 stassats`: ok i see 21:13:36 there's also C-c C-p to jump to old prompts 21:13:44 alright 21:15:05 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:19 C-c C-p seems to have recently stopped working for me... 21:15:32 oh.. it's shadowed by another binding. 21:15:41 Intensity [i=[IWxENo1@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 21:15:43 drewc: i've fixed it recently 21:15:46 C-M-a works too 21:16:03 stassats`: cool, i'll have to update slime again 21:17:25 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:30 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 21:18:08 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:10 -!- lizzzy [i=7aac0daa@gateway/web/freenode/x-rsywtqukwaujvmhh] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 21:18:50 anton [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 21:20:47 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.91] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:07 heh, really getting TDD down is so dang hard at times. 21:22:28 With the CL app I've been working on, just getting the TDD thing down has been a challenge 21:23:20 I find that pretty stupid 21:23:52 What, trying TDD, or it being a challenge? 21:24:04 writing tests before 21:24:41 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A6357E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:58 tcr: there was an intersting papaer on lisp.reddit to other day about an 'interactive' testing system for lisp. I wrote a little implementation in CL and it was a neat approach for a lot of what i do. 21:24:59 Well, over the long term it's supposed to help make sure code is tested well, but also well thought out in terms of functions only doing the bare minimum possible. 21:25:32 Trying it with one project, not sure I'll stick with it though :) 21:25:43 I also don't buy into extreme KISS 21:26:18 but "who tests the tests"? 21:26:37 tcr: basically, you type 'OK' at the repl after a successful function call... it records * and +, and turns it into a test such that (eql (eval +) *) 21:27:05 stassats`: the code tests the tests. it's a circle! 21:27:22 i got all lost trying to properly implement *, ** and *** within a test form (that is, to use the results of the last test(s)) 21:27:43 stassats`: That's the crucial thing really, and you're right...I mean if you're writing code it can be buggy all the way down the line, and there isn't much to really solve that. 21:28:21 drewc: One argument against is that you'll feel assured that you have written tests, even though your tests will suck, only cover the very basic stuff 21:28:25 I think the main concept of tests is that of once you write the tests and have something "working", you can in theory mess with the internals and as long as you get the same inputs and outputs, you most likely kept the correct implementation. 21:29:01 tcr: better some tests than none.... i mean, if you're just playing at the repl, why not record the proper results. 21:29:12 it's not a replacement for a full test suite, but augments it nicely 21:29:19 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-173-115.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 21:29:20 knobo [n=user@ti0073a340-0462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:29:45 TDT: assuming you made all the proper assumptions in your test, and are actually testing the right thing. 21:29:49 Yeah I actually like the idea; I'd probably make use of it during the development session 21:29:54 it's better to record /, not * 21:30:18 TDT: See my point I gave to drewc 21:30:30 stassats`: heh.. 6 years of lisp and i just learned about / today. 21:30:42 drewc: Yeah, that's correct - and yeah there's unfortunately not any one full proof way of doing it. 21:30:43 TDT: A good test suite is essential, hence you should spend time and thought to it 21:31:24 can i use emacs21 with slime without problems or does current slime need emacs22 or 23? 21:31:30 tcr: Yeah - it just comes down to when to write the tests. I'm finding myself thinking more of the architecture at the moment, so for that it's kinda nice at least. 21:31:54 gibranian: it's better to use emacs23 for anything 21:31:55 tcr: exactly.. it's a nice alternative to the ad-hoc repl testing that characterises most lisp development i do.. i don't change my workflow all that much, and i get some tests for free. 21:31:57 gibranian: GNU Emacs 21 should work, I think. 21:32:13 gibranian: if you can, use emacs 23 21:32:25 emacs-21 is so last decade 21:32:31 drewc: Well I do a lot M-p RET M-p M-p RET etc 21:32:41 drewc: I think it's pretty neat to overcome that! 21:32:43 tcr: yup, me too 21:32:47 and yup, me too :) 21:33:00 maybe i'll flesh it out and release it :) 21:33:12 Should be a slime contrib 21:33:41 tcr: I will say the more I've been messing with lift, the more I like it...although I ran into a really strange issue today 21:34:01 stassats`: its archive file is half the size of 23, so if it works with slime properly, it will be much more logical for me to use emacs21 instead of trying to exclude features without knowledge on configure files 21:35:09 gibranian: why do you need to economize space? (just curious) 21:35:19 It's frustrating to having spent a whole day on a bug and still not knowing what's the exact cause :-) 21:35:40 tcr: at least you are still smiling :-) 21:35:50 Learnt a lot about sbcl's inners 21:36:04 TDT: i often find myself doing 'debugger-driven development', which is like TDD without the tests. write code that is missing parts and run it, hit the debugger, add missing code, hit the correct restart, repeat. 21:36:04 I guess in a muddy point of view 21:36:18 You actually do that? 21:36:21 good to know that that is so uplifting :-) 21:37:46 prxq: i'm trying to fit tiny core linux + sbcl + emacs + slime + mcclim + documentations and manuals on a 256 mb flash disk since my harddrive is broken :) 21:37:54 dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-173-115.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:39:36 tcr: asking me? I do it all the time.. usually for web-based code. 21:40:06 gibranian: had you 16GB of RAM you could fit all in RAM 21:40:31 stassats`: nope, that wasn't me :D 21:40:38 gibranian: gzip sbcl's core! 21:41:32 pr [n=pr@p579CA73E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:20 pkhuong: does it work? 21:42:39 gibranian: it saves a lot of space, yes. 21:42:45 my current core is 61 mb's :D (including mcclim and climacs and something else) 21:42:46 gzip the whole filesystem even! 21:43:10 it's called squashfs 21:43:30 of course, with the price of flash disks these days, and harddrives for that matter... it's a lot cheaper to just go out and buy one. 21:44:40 but, you can spend the rest on booze 21:44:52 drewc: Yeah, that's how I think the normal way of development is - but without tests, I've had projects I touch break horribly because of the lack of tests though..so I've gotten into the habit of doing at least some tests. 21:45:19 looks like i can get 10-15gb of flash disks for less than i bill in an hour... 21:46:26 TDT: i always have tests, but TDD is not testing 21:46:42 -!- billstclair is now known as wws 21:46:48 TDD is about design/development more than it is about testing 21:47:23 I guess TDD makes sense in a edit-compile-run cycle 21:47:58 tcr: yea, your test suite becomes your REPL to a certain extent. 21:48:23 -!- erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:37 erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:48:39 still... i don't feel as if i have to write a failing test before i write the code that will pass it... and i don't think my systems suffer because of this oversight. 21:48:39 drewc: in a sad, painful way, perhaps :D 21:49:02 -!- Snamich [n=Snamich@161.210.79.194] has quit [] 21:49:28 Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 21:49:49 What I guess what I would like is a DEFEXAMPLE form serves as a) test case, b) inclusion into documentation generation, and actually code example, and so would put it close to the stuff it shows 21:50:09 -!- joswig [n=joswig@g224047086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:14 tcr: heh... 21:50:20 i'm actually working on something just like that 21:50:25 I sometimes use toplevel asserts for that 21:50:51 basically, i generate a test suite from the examples in my documentation 21:50:54 drewc: ... in org-mode? (: 21:50:58 pkhuong: yes 21:51:23 *hefner* watched the org-mode google tech talk the other night, came away completely bewildered 21:51:37 :-) me too, still I haven't tried it 21:51:45 org-mode is teh win 21:51:57 Now that I don't use planner-mode anymore, I should try org out. 21:52:33 i started using it as a simple TODO list and outliner... then for time tracking too, then for day-planning etc as a calendar, and finally for software development. 21:52:49 and for document publishing as well 21:52:55 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:53:19 hello. 21:54:24 I was looking for something for authoring documents (manuals and such). Texinfo and I don't get along, and raw HTML is too painful. As usual, looks like I could hack something suitable together in less time than it would take to figure out what to do with org-mode. 21:54:45 is it guaranteed in loop, that all >for< statements are evaluated in order? 21:55:15 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA4C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:22 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:55:41 varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:56:45 I'm trying to use org-mode as well. 21:57:03 Is there a link to any video from teh google tech talk? 21:57:21 it's in the u-tubes 21:58:06 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJTwQvgfgMM 21:58:44 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-173-115.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 21:59:09 gibranian1 [n=gibrania@88.238.46.60] has joined #lisp 21:59:22 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-15-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:32 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:59:44 -!- gibranian1 [n=gibrania@88.238.46.60] has left #lisp 22:00:02 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.167.251.245] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:00:57 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:54 I don't know if I've published it before; http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/sbcl.org is my sbcl org file 22:05:11 html export with 0 customization is http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/sbcl.html 22:05:42 *Krystof* leaks the admin password to a mailing list 22:05:49 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 22:05:57 Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 22:06:29 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:56 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:07:22 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 22:08:11 Krystof: i have a similar .org for every project or client i work on/for. Once of my favorite things about org is that i trivially publish my monthly status reports, including time tracking and future effort estimates. 22:08:31 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 22:09:34 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:10:53 -!- erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:55 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:10:58 org mode looks like a very deep pool, which i'm not sure I have the time to explore. 22:11:51 Fade: luckily, it's got only deep in the centre, the edges are extemelly shallow. 22:12:02 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 22:12:58 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 22:13:07 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has left #lisp 22:15:39 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:48 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:57 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-197.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:22:10 that org mode looks interesting, never knew about it till now 22:22:17 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 22:22:46 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:22:48 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 22:23:14 varjagg [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 22:23:48 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:27:09 repeteke [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #lisp 22:28:15 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:26 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:09 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:30 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:38 (let ((foo *)) (* foo foo)) => (LET ((FOO (PREVIOUS-RESULT 0))) (* FOO FOO)) <---- any way to get the generalisation of that without a code-walker? 22:31:29 huh? 22:31:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:30 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 22:33:10 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:17 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:24 -!- anton [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:34:01 drewc: * is not previous result. It's a special variable like any other. 22:34:18 (let ((* 42)) (let ((foo *)) (* foo foo))) --> 1764 22:34:18 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:39 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-151-136.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:36:35 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:38:40 pjb: you misunderstand. 22:38:49 I have the first form, i want the second form. 22:39:52 drewc: symbol-macros? 22:40:08 (shadow '*) (define-symbol-macro * (previous-value 0)) 22:40:09 tcr: package lock 22:40:49 pjb: i already have the value read in as CL:* 22:41:20 drewc: then code walk and do the symbol-macro expansion yourself. 22:41:28 drewc: You can subst first, then symbol macro 22:41:38 drewc: or try not to shoot your own foot, and read it again. 22:41:44 won't work for cyclic code, but well 22:42:12 cyclic code is not a problem, and subst will break the second cl:* 22:42:23 i guess i have to walk the code. 22:42:28 -!- linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:42:33 drewc: No, you first subst, then symbol-macro, then re-subst 22:42:37 drewc: that's why I wrote code walker, not subst. 22:42:52 francogrex [n=user@91.182.50.197] has joined #lisp 22:43:01 ah and macroexpand-all :-) 22:43:11 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 22:43:16 pjb: yeah, the original question was how to do this without a code walker, so saying 'use a code walker' is not quite was i was looking for :) 22:43:22 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 22:43:58 well the expanded form may not be what you want for your purpose 22:44:24 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:18 this is for my REPL based testing system. i have a for like (+ 1 *) living in +, and the result in *. I want the * to refer to a specific place in my test-result stack. 22:45:23 a form like* 22:47:10 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f050197175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["good night"] 22:48:36 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:22 dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-173-115.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:49:30 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:50:49 nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:10 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:52:22 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.53.236] has joined #lisp 22:53:25 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:53:58 both cnuplot and gsll define 'histogram function. In defining my own package I need to use cnuplot and gsll at the same time. How to choose the histogram from cnuplot? 22:55:32 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:56:43 leo2007: :shadowing-import-from #:cnuplot #:histogram 22:57:38 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:57:44 abugosh [n=Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 22:59:12 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:59:24 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-33-191.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:43 Tristam [n=Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:50 Xach: thanks. 23:00:41 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:01:54 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.182.50.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:00 some packages also define a PKGNAME-system package but some don't. What's the point of defining -system package? 23:02:20 that's for asdf 23:02:21 What's the point of defining any package? 23:03:26 because the -system names appear in slime's completion. It is a bit annoying, isn't it? 23:04:03 leo2007: http://kpreid.livejournal.com/19243.html 23:04:03 Yes it is, you don't need it 23:04:37 davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:41 *kpreid* waves 23:08:32 knobo` [n=user@ti0073a340-0462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:08:34 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@student167-152.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 23:08:46 m4dnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 23:08:48 trebor_d` [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 23:08:51 Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:57 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:08:58 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:09:09 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 23:09:43 -!- sytse [i=sytse@2001:610:1908:8000:21e:8cff:fe1e:77af] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-197.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- knobo [n=user@ti0073a340-0462.bb.online.no] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-29-179.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-146-135.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@213.112.233.227] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- johs [n=johs@80.91.224.246] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- Aisling_ [i=ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- ``Erik [n=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- codemonk1yx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.235] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- borisc [n=borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- dmm_ [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- dfox_ [n=dfox@94.113.17.246] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- tychoish [n=tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- nullman [n=nullman@75.73.150.26] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- guaq [i=gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- dym [n=dym@217.20.175.226] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@99.54.133.197] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:43 -!- nuba [n=nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:09:45 lupine_85 [n=quassel@lupine.me.uk] has joined #lisp 23:10:13 leo2007: i put all my systems in the same package rather than a foo-system package. I do this because i often LOAD .asd files 23:11:41 dym [n=dym@217.20.175.226] has joined #lisp 23:11:42 codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:44 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 23:11:45 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.235] has joined #lisp 23:11:49 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 23:11:49 mikezor [n=mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:11:50 tychoish [n=tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:51 ``Erik [n=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:55 ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-146-135.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:55 guaq [i=gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:59 hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 23:12:00 borisc [n=borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 23:12:07 Aisling [i=ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 23:12:08 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 23:12:14 nuba [n=nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:21 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 23:12:54 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 23:13:05 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 23:13:05 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:06 dfox_ [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:13:09 Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-197.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:13:15 ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-29-179.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:13:18 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 23:13:25 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@99.54.133.197] has joined #lisp 23:14:06 gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 23:14:21 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-11-234.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:14:51 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 23:15:19 pjb` [n=t@64.Red-79-149-158.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:21 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-44-191.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:15:30 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:15:38 tcr: thanks for the pointer. I have just removed that bit from my package. 23:16:16 -!- pjb [n=t@16.Red-79-149-142.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:16:32 drewc: the article suggested by tcr says asdf creates a temp package every time an .asd is loaded. 23:16:55 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:49 leo2007: yes, but not when it's LOADed 23:18:18 drewc: for that you put in (in-package :cl-user) and explicitly qualify symbols 23:19:39 -!- skeptical_p [n=rondev@bzq-109-67-7-24.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:19:54 tcr: or (unless (find-package :coop.tech.systems) (defpackage coop.tech.systems (:use :asdf :cl))) (in-package coop.tech.systems) ... 23:20:21 no 23:20:25 no? 23:20:30 toplevelness 23:21:09 perhaps I'm misremembering defpackage :-) 23:21:13 clhs defpackage 23:21:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 23:21:19 with an eval-when it's fine 23:21:22 is there a way to convert a string to a byte vector without using code-char? I want to treat utf-8 chars like זרו like two bytes. 23:21:27 i hope, as all my systems have that! 23:21:42 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:52 minion: babel? 23:21:53 babel: Babel is a charset encoding/decoding library, not unlike GNU libiconv, but completely written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/babel 23:22:06 drewc: That roughly as much annoyance as specifying the few asdf symbols explicitly :-) 23:23:09 where in CLHS does it talk about the behavior of using setq on an undeclared variable, and/or as a toplevel form? 23:23:31 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:21 stassats`: thanx 23:24:43 it has string-to-octets, or something similar 23:24:44 tcr: yeah, i agree actually... i've been cargo-culting that form since the beginning to be honest (note the com.javamonkey.system bit) and just like to justify it somehow :P 23:24:53 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:02 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Success] 23:25:04 sykopomp: it doesn't 23:25:26 sykopomp: it's undefined 23:25:39 drewc: Huh that way of doing it doesn't prevent the creation of a -systems package? 23:25:51 (implicitly, by virtue of not being defined) 23:25:58 drewc: undefined as in it mentions it but does not specify what it's supposed to do, or does it not even mention the concept? 23:25:59 i don't mind the extra package. 23:26:04 hm 23:26:14 Why do you do it that way then? 23:27:01 sykopomp: there's no place that says "the behaviour of setq on ... is unspecified" 23:27:13 sykopomp: setq is specified to work on variables 23:27:39 sykopomp: what a variable is is specified, but using setq on a non-variable is not 23:28:03 ah, right. 23:28:07 thanks :) 23:28:39 tcr: i have no good excuse anymore.... 23:28:51 staying out of cl-user? 23:28:55 well, the behaviour of (setf (symbol-value 'foo) 42) is more interesting 23:30:01 -!- kami` [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:30:17 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:30:18 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:47 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-29-179.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:09 Is there any appreciable difference between (defun x ...) and (setf (symbol-function 'x) my-stored-lambda)? 23:36:19 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.66.53.236] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:27 compile-time side effects 23:36:29 I'm looking at toggling a function between different definitions 23:37:29 hmm, yeah. I dont' think I'll have any of those, but good to keep in mind 23:37:43 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:50 Phoodus: one way to do that is to funcall a special instead. 23:37:56 or APPLY it. 23:38:50 Phoodus: symbol-function can't handle (setf foo) as a function name, either. 23:39:09 you can use (setf fdefinition) for that, though. 23:39:58 the usage would be similar to (let ((name 'x)) (setf (symbol-function name) fun)) 23:40:32 Xach: As this is inner loop stuff, is there noticeable speed difference between direct (name . args) calling and apply/funcall? 23:41:05 Phoodus: if you are using setf on symbol-function, I don't think it will make a big difference. You'd blow away whatever optimizations might be available. 23:41:19 right, these aren't declared inline or anything 23:41:33 Good to measure before deciding, though. 23:41:53 hmm, I wonder if I'll get a bunch of warnings about undefined function names before they're all set 23:42:04 Probably. How did this come to seem like a good idea? 23:42:22 it's a JIT compiler 23:42:30 so function definitions can change 23:42:56 wondering if I could use regular call semantics, and change the function definitions behind the symbol, instead of changing the call semantics 23:43:06 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:12 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 23:43:59 tictactorque [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #lisp 23:44:20 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:48:36 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 23:48:38 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:50:36 Blkt [n=user@host-78-13-246-134.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 23:50:44 -!- knobo` is now known as knobo 23:51:23 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-173-115.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 23:51:34 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:55:31 -!- Ober_ is now known as Ober 23:56:51 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:57:57 skeptical_p [n=rrr@109.67.7.24] has joined #lisp 23:58:37 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]