00:00:09 drewc: Databases, ERP, telco-specific software 00:01:53 araujo [n=araujo@190.38.49.150] has joined #lisp 00:02:02 srsly, is there any *non* database business where you usually see *big* servers, as in lots of processing power that isn't just a giant cluster of blades/small servers? 00:02:02 tfb: i have not touched a sun box in over 10 years, but i imagine that they managed to fix solaris .. mainly i just prefered the bsd'isms 00:02:03 -!- Guest95507 [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:03 i've run into a lot of opensolaris recently. 00:02:03 people are using it just for ZFS 00:02:03 the debianised solaris distribution is actually pretty neat. 00:02:03 I think they (were) in the business of being cheaper than IBM and less screwed than HP 00:02:03 and may be a bit more solid than Linux 00:02:03 but I think they failed on the last two 00:02:20 and *everyone* is cheaper than IBM, so that wasn't hard 00:02:30 drewc: Solaris itself is quite good, nowadays. I also heard that Sun's compiler suite being quite good. OpenSolaris though... uh, no more. It might look and act like Ubuntu, but underneath everything breaks 00:02:43 drewc: we all did... 00:03:00 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 00:03:23 tfb: which is strange, as i was and am a linux user.... but something felt right about 'ps -ef' damnit! 00:03:45 Fade: does it use GNU userland or Sun's? Or did they patch GNU coretools to actually not fail on Solaris? 00:03:50 if I use ctrl+alt for M- on Mac, will it cause problems when, say, I need C-M-? 00:04:10 funny, now I live on a mac, and I find it really weird to remember ps -xauww 00:04:15 p_l: i haven't run into too many sun-isms 00:04:26 ps aux works 00:04:30 :) 00:04:30 RaceCondition: have a dime, buy yourself a real keyboard (sorry, couldn't help it) 00:04:34 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:04:45 Fade: I ran into problems regarding chmod/chown/ls etc. 00:04:46 p_l: no, I won't 00:05:00 tfb: even harder to remember that the '-' is depracated in GNU .. 'ps aux' is proper, for some reason i can't remember that surely doesn't make sense. 00:05:43 RaceCondition: why not use Ctrl for Ctrl, Alt for Alt? 00:05:43 drewc: ... kinda weird, as Linux/GNU usually followed after SystemV, while 'ps aux' etc. is BSD-style 00:05:47 drewc: whoever thought *that* was a good idea needs a good killing 00:05:53 look at the manpage 00:05:54 uouou [n=magnific@unaffiliated/uouou] has joined #lisp 00:06:02 GNU ps takes a superset of everyone's options 00:06:14 ps -ef works on gnu 00:06:18 drewc: how do I remap Alt to be meta? on the mac, Alt is used to enter weird characters, so Alt-v is not M-v 00:06:18 f'rinstance 00:06:23 without dash: BSD options 00:06:30 with dash: POSIX options 00:06:35 with two dashes: GNU options 00:06:39 foom: don't forget that GNU manpages suck ;-) 00:06:52 playing around with festival has me thinking about starting to learn lisp... anything I should know? library repository? 00:07:04 eh...my copy of the manpage says that in the first 4 paragraphs. 00:07:08 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:07:08 RaceCondition: do you have two Alt keys? 00:07:11 Completely off-topic (I've not been using IRC for an age), but is freenode having some kind of trauma 00:07:23 But then, I'm using debian, which makes sure to create a manpage for GNU software if it only came with an info page. :) 00:07:25 p_l: yes 00:07:29 there seem to be vast batches of people coming and going 00:07:42 netsplit? 00:07:44 RaceCondition: good, not just me then :-) 00:07:46 tfb: probably someone is flooding one of the freenode servers 00:07:48 RaceCondition: map one to act as meta, another as AltGr/Compose 00:07:50 tfb: indeed.. this is somewhat unusual :) 00:07:53 -!- getha is now known as thijso 00:08:12 p_l: do you happen to know how to do this? 00:08:24 it's a bit sad that IRC servers still can't do automatic failover without causing all that noise. 00:08:53 foom: heh.. so it does...GNU ps makes sense to me now, and i actually kind of like it! 00:09:04 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 00:09:12 Good morning! 00:09:29 RaceCondition: No, my only contact with Macs was trying 10.5 under VMware and occasional trolling of clueless Mac users (clued ones are alright) 00:09:31 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 wakeup [n=wakeup@93.129.190.10] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.221] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-jnrafnblykvqbtmy] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:09:32 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.254.29] has joined #lisp 00:10:08 i'm a hardcore bsd/solaris user myself, but if there is one thing the GNU stuff do nice, it's that placement of options are not fixed. it's one major inflexibility issue on BSD. 00:10:10 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:34 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:10:52 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:55 -!- lemoinem is now known as Guest25823 00:10:57 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:11:04 p_l: hmmmm the one of the good-written raytracer? 00:11:05 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:08 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has joined #lisp 00:11:13 ohh... the PS_PERSONALITY environment variable is the ultimate in 'stfu drewc!' 00:11:31 p_l: yes, I think I thank another person for that :P 00:11:31 how so? 00:11:36 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:45 plage: read PS(1) regarding linux ps 00:14:14 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:30 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 00:14:42 plage: i was complaining (more out of bordom than seriousness) about the various different ways i've learned to talk to 'ps' over the years, and how GNU seemd to make no sense at all. Then i read the manpage, and things made sense.... 00:14:57 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- Guest25823 [n=swoog@66.51.254.29] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@93.129.190.10] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.221] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-jnrafnblykvqbtmy] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:57 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:15:04 rpg: I'm afraid your reply isn't very helpful. Can you explain why you are miserable with sbcl and logical pathnames? 00:15:07 GNU ps is like the CL of ps's 00:16:00 Xach: ACL allows logical pathnames to be case-varying, but SBCL enforces the case-flattening behavior in the spec. 00:16:03 drewc: no feature left behind, eh? 00:16:05 rpg: So? 00:16:09 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:18 Your ACL stuff fails excitingly when you use SBCL. 00:16:20 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 00:16:28 rpg: I guess that still isn't helpful. How? 00:16:33 rpg: Can you give an example? 00:17:13 Xach: I wish I could, but I have garbage-collected a lot of this --- I have pretty much stopped using logical pathnames after dropping too much time figuring out when they fail. 00:17:20 Xach: you can't access files with uppercase letters. 00:17:22 Hang on, maybe I can reconstruct a little... 00:17:41 ISeemToRecallThatWorkingWithJavaBoysWasPainful 00:18:01 Ok, that's a helpful data point. Thanks. 00:18:41 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:19:18 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 Guest25823 [n=swoog@66.51.254.29] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 wakeup [n=wakeup@93.129.190.10] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.221] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-jnrafnblykvqbtmy] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:20:19 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.221] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 00:22:09 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.221] has joined #lisp 00:26:33 -!- anton [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has quit ["bye"] 00:26:54 Before I go checking indexes from my bookshelf, do you know of a Lisp book that covers logical pathnames? 00:27:50 cltl2? 00:28:19 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:54 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 00:29:09 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 00:29:43 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:30:14 jsnell_ [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:14 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:24 davazp` [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:25 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:46 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:50 cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:50 -!- davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:31:27 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:33:46 yes indeedy 00:34:05 *Xach* forgot he sold Successful Lisp and W&H 3rd Ed :( 00:34:24 Does anyone have winston and horn who can tell me if it discusses logical pathnames? 00:35:14 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:19 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:21 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 00:35:47 Fare tried to use logical pathnames for something once, and quickly learned his mistake and switched to a custom "relocatable path string" instead. 00:36:49 something like "SYSTEM/path/etc" where SYSTEM is a separately defined path defined elsewhere 00:37:25 -!- cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:37:27 Not helpful. 00:38:24 Seriously, Xach, have a look at the spec, that's where I realized that these would not work for me. 00:38:45 Yes, I've reviewed the spec, and it seems perfect for my use case. 00:38:49 hmmm I can't seem to get clisp to recognize asdf package... 00:38:55 can anyone give me a hand? 00:38:57 I'm eager to write some code and see how it goes. 00:39:22 I'm also eager for non-useless information about others' experiences. 00:39:36 chiiph: Did you load asdf.lisp? 00:39:39 I think it probably works fine as long as you can live with its filename restricitons. 00:40:01 Hang on and I'll have a peek. 00:40:03 I think I can. The JavaMixedCase thing is great to know, but not an issue for me. 00:40:11 Xach: "LOAD: A file with name asdf.lisp does not exist" 00:40:21 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 00:40:26 chiiph: Did you download asdf.lisp? 00:40:35 Or is it somewhere on your filesystem already? 00:40:43 Ah, here, Xach, in the spec for logical pathnames, in the Syntax for Logical Pathname Namestrings: "word---one or more uppercase letters, digits, and hyphens." 00:40:52 SBCL enforces this, ACL does not. 00:40:58 rpg: Yes, not a problem for me. 00:41:01 Xach: I've installed (I'm using Gentoo)... should I load "/usr/share/common-lisp/source/asdf/asdf.lisp"? 00:41:21 chiiph: That's one thing you can do. there might be a more concise way to do it. 00:41:28 Xach: OK, it was enough of a problem for me that I stopped using logical pathnames, except when I knew I was going to be writing ACL-only code.. 00:41:41 Xach: yes, I was hoping for a more portable way of doing it... 00:41:58 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483CBEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:42:06 chiiph: (load "/usr/.../asdf.lisp") will be pretty portable. some lisps make (require 'asdf) do the right thing. 00:42:42 rpg: I'm primarily thinking about data files for my application. fonts, html templates, things like that. i have full control over how they're named and where they live. 00:42:52 Xach: (require 'asdf) returns NIL... 00:42:57 Xach: in that case, you should be fine. 00:42:58 chiiph: excellent, then it worked 00:43:07 rpg: in the past, i've defined something like *base-directory* and done merge-pathnames with it. that sucks. 00:43:09 Xach: oh... great... thanks 00:43:32 Xach: I still do that in my ASDF files because they don't handle data files well. 00:43:42 Cf my remarks on asdf-binary-pathnames 00:44:00 rpg: have you used (asdf:system-relative-pathname ...) at all? i only recently became aware of it. 00:44:17 (i rewrote it myself shortly before finding it...) 00:44:21 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:40 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:44:46 Xach: No, I didn't know about that. I have had mixed feelings about forcing systems to "know" that they are being loaded by ASDF.... 00:44:54 i hear you. 00:45:07 Sorry, I must dash or my family will murder me.... 00:45:11 Xach: for some reason if I put that require in my lisp file, and then run clisp -c raytracer.lisp, it tries to open ASDF.lisp from that path, where it doesn't exists... 00:45:13 Xach: hey, neat, thanks for that hint 00:45:20 Xach: I needed that. :) 00:45:28 no problem! 00:45:32 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:58 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:02 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46:10 chiiph: well, you wouldn't put that into a lisp source file. 00:46:16 chiiph: it would go in your startup file or similar. 00:47:07 Xach: start up file? :) this is so embarrassing :P 00:47:25 ~/.clisprc 00:47:55 or ~/.clisprc.lisp 00:48:10 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:27 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:48:51 stassats: "LOAD: A file with name ASDF does not exist" 00:49:03 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:49:46 chiiph: you get that from (require 'asdf)? 00:50:03 Xach: yep, in ~/.clisprc 00:50:13 then perhaps custom:*load-paths* should be adjusted 00:50:16 where were you when it worked before? 00:50:52 Xach: I've run clisp, and then write that require... 00:51:11 what's the value of custom:*load-paths* there? 00:51:12 in what directory? 00:51:17 chiiph: put (load "/etc/gentoo-init.lisp") in your .clisprc.lisp 00:51:28 -!- fihi09` [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:51:58 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:09 fe[nl]ix: nice... thanks :) 00:53:20 Xach: evidently it needed some gentoo magic :P 00:53:56 ruediger [n=quassel@213-33-31-235.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:54:18 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.221] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:55:39 ah ok 00:56:39 -!- Guest25823 [n=swoog@66.51.254.29] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:57:01 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.248.210] has joined #lisp 00:59:23 drewc: I see. 01:00:31 *Xach* wonders how much work excerpts in the search results will be 01:01:00 -!- kuwabara2 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:01:21 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f666872-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 01:01:22 kuwabara2 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 01:02:49 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:03:48 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:37 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 01:07:10 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:11:30 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Killed by mquin ()] 01:12:38 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:13:24 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 01:15:12 rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:41 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:24 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-42-13.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:21:58 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:22:13 Xach: oh... can i make a request? I'd love to have the forward and back links available at the bottom of the post as well 01:22:50 Xach: I was reading the naggum saga in order, and found i was scrolling up a lot to go to the next one.. 01:23:09 i greasemonkey'd up a hack, but i bet i'm not the only one. 01:23:39 there're n and p keys 01:24:03 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.152.212] has joined #lisp 01:24:29 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 01:24:40 drewc: n/p and j/k go back/forward 01:25:36 gah! 01:26:00 *drewc* is impressed 01:26:32 that's even documented! i suck, xach rules, nothing to see here. 01:28:17 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-23-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:29:21 Xach: i second drewc suggestion, the shortcuts don't work on any browser i've tried. 01:29:53 (since every browser i use uses those shortcuts) 01:30:53 i initially had a fixed-position div at the top, but it screwed up searching and didn't work across browsers 01:31:58 it's hard to please everyone though, i'm just a small fish who likes offbeat browsers ;). 01:32:42 derrida: yeah, but chances to find Vimperator users among #lisp denizens are definitely higher ;-) 01:32:48 :) 01:33:19 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:33:59 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-64-113.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:34:39 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-67-180-9-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:36:58 poet [n=poet@ppp-70-225-160-21.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:13 Vimperator? ITYM Conkeror! 01:38:27 uzbl! 01:38:36 uzbl is pretty unusable, ironically. 01:38:42 truth 01:41:04 i have started a lisp browser actually.. webkit for GTK + sbcl ... it was fun to play with, but no decent DOM access from C/lisp. I'm planning to try again with qt4.6 01:41:11 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715083437]"] 01:42:28 ltyphair [n=ltyphair@ppp-70-244-203-179.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:38 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:52 poet [n=poet@ppp-70-225-160-21.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:02 -!- ltyphair [n=ltyphair@ppp-70-244-203-179.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has left #lisp 01:43:35 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:18 sykopomp: ironically? It's trying to be like unix... of course it's stupid and broken and hard to use... i fail to see the irony :P 01:44:26 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:55 -!- legumbre [n=leo@190.135.58.174] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:22 and sometimes it just segfaults 01:45:43 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 01:47:23 drewc: yeah, uzbl kinda missed the point... now, if it sported a proper filesystem interface... :> 01:47:52 Does it have javascript support? 01:48:00 parolang: yes, it uses webkit 01:48:08 hmm 01:50:28 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:50:40 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f666872-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 01:50:54 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:51:06 *_3b* votes for FUSE based web browser 01:52:47 I think the problem is that FireFox/IceWeasel are 90% good enough. 01:52:49 drewc: you have probably already tried to say the name out loud -- and that's all I was referring to :) 01:52:53 I agree on your points. 01:53:18 90% good enough even for the geeks who want extend and hack their browser. 01:53:38 not for lisp geeks, i want to hack it in lisp 01:53:51 parolang: it would be good enough if not for performance 01:54:05 otoh, I no longer have proper comparison ^^; 01:54:17 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 01:54:21 p_l: That too. But, if you include web kit into it, is uzbl really that much more efficient? 01:54:23 cause I wouldn't try navigating the amount of tabs I have in any other browser 01:54:30 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:54:48 p_l: Which browser do you use? 01:54:59 and my Firefox 3.6 is possibly few times more memory-efficient than standard binaries 01:55:43 if lambda is set to return the function ... what would #'(lambda ()) return? 01:56:07 clhs function 01:56:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 01:56:12 i have some src that sorta mixed the two up som 01:56:14 parolang: firefox 3.6b1 x86-64 w/ profile-guided optimization and things like xulrunner ripped out 01:56:21 it says => function 01:56:27 p_l: ah 01:57:00 p_l: There's another guy who is trying to deal with the prospect of operating with an insane number of tabs at once. 01:57:12 stassats: ah ok so if i pass (function #'sym) i should make it return #'sym ? 01:57:37 *dmiles* sorta implementing parts 01:57:39 (function #'sym) is wrong 01:57:43 p_l: I think he found Opera was better than Firefox, and last I heard he's looking at uzbl. 01:57:49 parolang: My record was somewhere around ~150 tabs 01:57:53 <_3b> dmiles: FUNCTION doesn't evaluate its argument 01:57:56 (function sym) is right, on the other hand 01:58:17 parolang: right now, I've got 102 tabs in two windows, with quite a lot of extensions 01:58:32 p_l: http://heybryan.org/bookmarking.html 01:58:44 *stassats* has only 36 emacs buffers 01:58:45 <_3b> dmiles: so #'(lambda ...) reads as (function (lambda ...)), while (lambda ...) is a macro that expands to (funtion (lambda ...)) when evaluated 01:58:50 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:52 true i mean more the situation of #'(lambda ()) where (lambda ()) 01:59:06 _3b: ah 01:59:11 p_l: I think my problem with that many tabs is using the stupid tab bar. I'd rather a C-x b emacs-like interface. 01:59:23 <_3b> dmiles: the difference is whether it happens at read or macroexpansion time 01:59:24 parolang: then try Vimperator 01:59:42 *p_l* has 102 tabs, 24 *active* extensions and external flash plugin 01:59:56 p_l: how many things do you have on your table? 01:59:58 p_l: Hmm. I should give it a look. 01:59:59 effectin;lty right now i got (function (function ...)) going 02:00:03 jeeez [n=jeez@117.193.165.84] has joined #lisp 02:00:18 hey, what lisp do i use to learn in Windows? 02:00:32 stassats: on the table? Right now nothing, cause I don't have a desk/table :) 02:00:38 JeebusChrist [n=Oranguta@201.170.3.206.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:48 Billy Mayes here with an amazing new website! 02:00:48 _3b: i think i see now 02:00:49 jeeez earlier somesone said CCL 02:01:02 jeeez: I recommend CCL 02:01:11 Are you tired of Niggers and their monkeyshines, but can't join the KKK because you are Asian, Mexican, Jewish, Indian, or Native American? 02:01:17 Then check out Chimpout Forum! 02:01:34 thanks! 02:01:37 Chimpout is an amazing new nigger-hating organization that welcomes anybody who hates niggers and isn't black! 02:01:44 Asian? No problem! 02:01:47 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:01:55 Mexican? Bienvenido amigo! 02:02:03 Jewish!? We have Jewish moderators! 02:02:06 Join today! 02:02:11 http://www.chimpout.com/forum 02:02:15 ... I need an auto ignore script 02:02:23 ummm isn't that spamming? :-\ no mods? 02:02:47 Join in the epic battle of human vs nigger! 02:02:56 http://www.chimpout.com/forum 02:03:27 konr` [n=user@189.96.192.134] has joined #lisp 02:03:56 jeeez: usually it takes too long to get weaponry online and get targeting solution to respond to such spam 02:04:03 -!- JeebusChrist [n=Oranguta@201.170.3.206.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-lined] 02:06:10 hey, suggest some good tuts too? i have a few of them in front of me, but i want the best option! 02:06:45 <_3b> minion: tell jeeez about pcl 02:06:47 jeeez: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:06:56 jeeez well my approach was to get all the lisp books out the library I could find but the good book is online too 02:08:05 minion is a bot? :-\ 02:08:15 minion: are you a bot? 02:08:15 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 02:08:34 let me try! 02:08:37 minion: you a bot? 02:08:38 what's up? 02:08:44 :) 02:11:00 -!- davazp` [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:12:18 -!- chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:14:47 chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has joined #lisp 02:20:42 Hexstream [n=hexstrea@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:22:47 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:24:46 -!- Hexstream [n=hexstrea@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:24:59 Hexstream [n=hexstrea@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:25:46 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o slyrus 02:25:59 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.67.160] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:26:17 -!- Hexstream [n=hexstrea@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:26:27 slyrus! 02:26:56 hey xach 02:27:14 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-179-237.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:36 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:11 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 02:29:16 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Exit Coyo Stage Right"] 02:31:22 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:32:40 so I'm playing with OpenGL 02:32:49 specifically, trying to write an obj viewer 02:33:09 and I've gotten something to work reasonably well, except it runs INCREDIBLY slow on SBCL. 02:33:24 i.e. <1fps on good hardware with a simple model 02:33:35 profiling shows that most of the time is spent in this function: 02:33:59 Ralith pasted "slow function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93474 02:34:22 what am I doing wrong? 02:34:34 <_3b> Ralith: using immediate mode 02:34:47 _3b: well, yes, but that doesn't excuse <1fps. 02:34:58 <_3b> the vec-apply things might be bad too 02:35:10 <_3b> if they break cffi compiler macros 02:35:14 (funcall function (aref vec 0) (aref vec 1) (aref vec 2)) 02:35:18 hm? 02:35:24 okay, how would you do it 02:35:26 macro? 02:35:55 Sluggo [n=user@75.64.59.44] has joined #lisp 02:36:10 <_3b> use the gl functions that take arrays? 02:36:20 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-179-237.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:36:21 ..oh, I wasn't aware of those. 02:36:42 uhh 02:36:50 what are they, in cl-opengl? 02:37:00 <_3b> doesn't look like there are nice versions, so might need to use ffi :/ 02:37:04 there's no variations on gl:tex-coord 02:37:05 :| 02:37:16 <_3b> probably easier to just write the apply things as a macro 02:37:20 for now yeah 02:37:33 I will fork cl-opengl and find some good way to do this Right later 02:38:14 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 02:39:07 <_3b> also, specifying a type for the arrays might help 02:40:00 okay, it's still at about 1fps with the apply stuff macroified 02:40:15 is typing really that massive a slowdown, especially on sbcl? 02:40:53 again, this is a pretty small model. 02:42:19 _3b: come to think mof it, the array types *are* specified... 02:42:22 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:43:23 the full thing is available at http://isitloadedyet.com/~ralith/gltest.tar.gz if you can spare the time to take a close look. 02:44:55 -!- jeeez [n=jeez@117.193.165.84] has left #lisp 02:45:06 it really worries me that such a seemingly simple demo runs so slow, even on SBCL. 02:46:13 Not really because there is demo's that run fine 02:46:40 no, actually, it does worry me. 02:46:55 I know this on account of being me. 02:47:38 <_3b> mow are you measuring render speed? 02:47:45 <_3b> *how 02:48:01 _3b: I am looking at the display and going "huh, that's only updating once every second or so." 02:48:29 <_3b> out of curiosity, wrap the (render obj) call in main with (time ...) ? 02:48:33 'kay 02:48:59 woah. 02:49:00 good call. 02:49:02 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:23 _3b: "Evaluation took: 0.000 seconds of real time" 02:49:51 just to be sure, imma wrap time around the entire renderloop 02:49:56 <_3b> clhs get-universal-time 02:49:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_un.htm 02:50:03 hm? 02:50:18 <_3b> clhs universal time 02:50:25 what about it 02:50:49 <_3b> universal time n. time, represented as a non-negative integer number of seconds. 02:50:59 ...what about it? 02:51:08 <_3b> you only rotate when the universal time changes 02:51:08 okay, entire renderloop takes 0.001 seconds realtime. 02:51:13 ........... 02:51:15 *Ralith* facepalm 02:51:22 <_3b> so you could be rendering thousands of frames that all loo the same per second :) 02:51:32 thank you 02:51:48 <_3b> clhs get-internal-real-time 02:51:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_in.htm 02:51:49 I am simultaneously embarassed and relieved that it was that simple 02:52:04 <_3b> (note that that is probably too low resolution too on many platforms) 02:52:28 *Ralith* is on linux and doesn't care all that much 02:52:29 ^^ 02:52:50 <_3b> still could be too low, but probably good enough for a quick test app 02:53:08 <_3b> probably 100hz or so if i remember right 02:53:21 if it's >60hz that's plenty 02:53:24 for any app, really 02:53:58 <_3b> it probably isn't >60 hz on for example windows 02:55:10 The max fps I could ever seem to measure on linux was 100 02:55:40 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:55:48 _3b: nowaday's the standard method for synchronisation in games is TSC register... 02:56:02 I wasn't doing any averaging or anything though 02:56:03 <_3b> p_l: yeah, that isn't in CLHS though :) 02:56:29 p_l: wassat? 02:56:34 *_3b* suspects GLOP doesn't have any high res time/timer support either 02:56:53 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:33 Guthur_ [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:58 umm i can't connect to google.co.uk 02:59:28 someone killed google 03:00:19 at last 03:00:20 ah there, probably just me 03:00:41 sorry for getting your hopes up stassats 03:00:49 Ralith: Time Step Counter or something like that 03:01:06 increases with every tick of cpu clock, iirc 03:01:14 time stamp counter 03:01:28 p_l: handy 03:01:37 _3b: is it a GL platform lib's job to do that sort of thing? 03:02:01 <_3b> it would be nice to have... depends on how narrow focus you want to be 03:02:26 I think its somewhat out of cl-opengl remit though 03:02:41 <_3b> yeah, wouldn't put it in cl-opengl 03:02:42 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 03:04:40 benny [n=benny@i577A7C1A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:05:05 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:36 I dunno for sure about Patzy, but I see glop as an accessory to crossplatform cl-opengl use. 03:06:16 POSIX clock_gettime will get it under linux 03:06:27 and then queryperformancecounter under windows 03:08:41 Guthur_: I think most use it through assembly ;-) 03:08:50 zephyrfalcon [n=hans@adsl-074-229-200-227.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:32 -!- pjb` [n=t@101.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:35 p_l most times I seen QueryPerformanceCounter with QueryPerformanceFrequency, but that was never production code 03:10:03 I think it gives as much resolution as you are going to get 03:11:05 that was windows of course, most D3D tutorial/demo stuff would use that 03:11:06 pjb [n=t@101.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:07 -!- Guthur 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has joined #lisp 03:54:00 ltyphair [n=ltyphair@ppp-70-244-203-179.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:16 kroger [n=user@adsl-76-204-16-60.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:13 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A7C1A.versanet.de] has left #lisp 03:58:51 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d8154ee.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:51 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:02:15 -!- kroger [n=user@adsl-76-204-16-60.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:06:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:06:28 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:08:40 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:09:44 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:09:48 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 04:10:21 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:11:37 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@93.129.190.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:12:19 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 04:14:34 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-17.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:15:42 benny [n=benny@i577A7C1A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:22:59 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:23:59 I'm guessing the answer is "no"; but does the standard dictate the order of macroexpansion for macros A and B in the following code : (progn (a) (b)) ? 04:25:00 clhs 3.1.2 04:25:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ab.htm 04:27:35 TJohn [i=as@118-160-172-107.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:03 -!- Sluggo [n=user@75.64.59.44] has quit ["zzzz"] 04:37:23 Has anyone here ever implemented a btree with variable length keys? 04:43:35 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:44:28 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 04:45:58 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-196-235.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:30 In any language. 04:47:04 -!- as_ [i=as@118-160-172-107.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:21 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:55:15 I'm using SLIME now and doing a fn+Backspace on my mac which equals a delete does a regular backward-delete instead of a forward-delete 04:55:18 how to change that? 04:55:52 use C-d instead 04:55:53 C-h k show sthat fn-backspace is indeed caught as DEL 04:56:01 Ralith: yes, but how do I fix my issue :) 04:56:36 this solution involves less finger contortions 04:57:13 Ralith: wait, wasn't that the point of emacs? 04:57:24 >_> 04:57:41 caps lock -> control has pretty solidly solved that for me, actually 04:57:53 it's this nice big conveniently placed easily pressed key 04:57:56 ok, I'll just ask later... 04:58:47 RaceCondition: that's offtopic here, try #emacs 05:00:14 stassats: OK, I thought it was SLIME related and SLIME is more lisp than emacs 05:02:12 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-223-205.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:11 right, this is the place for slime related questions, which that question isn't 05:07:40 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:40 rares [n=rares@174-26-125-138.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:17 RaceCondition: are you running a GUI emacs or in an xterm? 05:10:37 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-125-138.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 05:10:56 gigamonkey: Emacs.app 05:11:16 but it's the same issue on Terminal as well 05:15:36 Yeah, you'll need to check over in #emacs. 05:17:48 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 05:18:24 Hmmm. On my old Powerbook fn+Backspace gets seen by Emacs as C-d 05:22:50 weird 05:23:23 I got the fn+Backspace issue fixed but now I'm wondering why I don't get Lisp autocompletion and -indenting... 05:24:56 Tab autocompletes, now? 05:24:58 no* 05:25:14 in the REPL, yes, M-TAB in lisp buffers 05:27:56 oh, with meta, OK 05:29:37 btw, is auto-completion in Lisp anywhere as complete as in most static language IDEs? 05:29:56 what does that mean? 05:30:36 ok, nevermind 05:32:36 how does auto-completion work anyway? does it do runtime analysis? 05:33:06 for example it offers me to complete "prompt", but it's neither a function nor a variable, but I have used it as a local variable inside one of my functions 05:33:20 so is that why it's in the auto-completion list? 05:35:26 because it's an interned symbol 05:40:23 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 05:46:36 -!- ltyphair [n=ltyphair@ppp-70-244-203-179.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has left #lisp 05:48:14 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:50:14 _3b: how, if at all, does cl-opengl handle OpenGL errors? 05:50:22 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 05:51:17 <_3b> Ralith: if you use my tree, and don't tell it not to when you compile cl-opengl, it will throw an error 05:51:32 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:51:56 <_3b> (note that the error handling code is a bit broken, so doesn't handle multiple contexts properly) 05:52:26 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has quit [] 05:52:49 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:55:47 <_3b> (well, signal an error, not literally THROW) 06:00:16 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:01:28 _3b: great. How would I tell it not to? 06:03:53 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 06:04:56 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 06:14:07 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:14:37 -!- rrice [n=rrice@76.244.145.54] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:15:09 <_3b> Ralith: put :cl-opengl-no-check-error on *features* and recompile cl-opengl and anything that calls it 06:16:18 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 06:16:20 'kay 06:17:18 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:17:28 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-82-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:33 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Operation timed out] 06:21:36 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 06:38:12 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:38:36 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 06:39:06 Anyone know how the CWD ties into CFFI? 06:39:22 I'm trying to load an image with cl-devil, and I can't work out a valid absolute path. 06:46:36 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:49:12 -!- oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:46 -!- Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-15-129.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 06:54:38 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-226-236.adslplus.ch] has quit [] 06:54:57 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:23 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066163.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 06:59:20 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:00:14 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 07:01:47 are string, vector, and array lengths typically constant time accessors? 07:02:42 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-232-178.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:02:59 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:03 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 07:03:10 Phoodus, yes i think so 07:03:38 in sane implementations 07:03:45 sbcl 07:04:04 sbcl is sane 07:04:05 cool, thanks 07:05:30 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.152.212] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:06:42 stassats, just for the trivia do you have an example of an insane implementation? 07:11:08 c|mell: strlen(s) 07:14:51 zbigniew, now what's that got to do with lisp 07:21:14 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.171.16.242] has joined #lisp 07:25:20 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229175223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:27:50 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:17 rdad [n=rdad@cpe-24-193-112-99.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:54 clmell: ACL2 would be an insane implementation. Theorically, it uses only lists, even to implement vectors. 07:31:12 anair_84 [n=anair_84@adsl-69-234-103-161.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:51 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 07:40:18 pjb, thanks, i hoped an interesting example might come up :) but acl2 is not exactly a lisp impl, rather something on top of a lisp impl (afaics) 07:40:30 Larry1965 [n=Larry196@d122-105-194-42.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:40:55 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-83.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:41:15 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-53-16.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 07:41:53 -!- Larry1965 [n=Larry196@d122-105-194-42.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 07:42:16 Yes. The other intersting examples are rather theorical. You could have a CL implementation over a simple VM having only CONS cells. Such an implementation over a very simple VM could be ported to various languages such as shell, perl, ruby, etc, to embed CL. Of course it would also be rather a slow implementation. 07:44:46 if you had an implementation storing an array in cons cells, you could make the length the car of the second cell (the first cell would contain the type tag), so it would still be efficient to access 07:45:25 Indeed. And you could implement the array as a tree, so that you get at least log(n) accesses. 07:46:15 So the conclusion is that insane implementations are hard to find. :-) 07:50:40 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-djllgazdfkcrlsqq] has joined #lisp 07:53:39 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-djllgazdfkcrlsqq] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 07:55:46 koning_r1bot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 07:56:06 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:59:48 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:59:53 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-53-16.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:18 snauts [n=snauts@mpe-43-133.mpe.lv] has joined #lisp 08:02:06 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066163.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:11 -!- snauts [n=snauts@mpe-43-133.mpe.lv] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:08:03 -!- a-s [n=user@93.112.122.84] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:10:33 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-20-189.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:13:51 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:55 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.171.16.242] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:14 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:19:07 tolstoy [n=tolstoy@c-98-246-158-241.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:39 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 08:21:33 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:36 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:16 -!- tolstoy [n=tolstoy@c-98-246-158-241.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi"] 08:27:23 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066156.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 08:38:04 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:05 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:40:31 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.142.34] has joined #lisp 08:40:34 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.84] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:33 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:07 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-117-62.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:55:22 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-20-189.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:58:41 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.88.124] has joined #lisp 09:05:21 milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.172] has joined #lisp 09:05:56 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:51 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f757659.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:51 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:19:38 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@adsl-69-234-103-161.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:20:06 prxq [n=mommer@g226134045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:25 hi 09:26:12 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:27:32 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 09:33:02 -!- fractali` [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:35:05 <_deepfire> Ok, the lisp-software-distribution rallying mail I had in mind never materialised beyond a draft. 09:35:21 <_deepfire> Maybe I'm a wrong person for such stuff. 09:36:19 -!- rdad [n=rdad@cpe-24-193-112-99.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 09:40:51 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:13 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:30 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:35 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066156.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:48:33 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118.160.170.196] has quit [Client Quit] 09:50:55 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-170-196.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:48 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:57:04 Larry65 [n=larry@d122-105-194-42.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:59:50 was there any recent "feature bounty" kind of thing in the CL world? 10:03:35 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f757659.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:05:41 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:06:17 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 10:11:07 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-28-75.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:11:08 <_deepfire> There doesn't seem to be a debian package for clozure cl, right? 10:12:21 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:12:27 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.142.34] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:12:54 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:13:23 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 10:13:41 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:14:28 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.76.217] has joined #lisp 10:15:57 dr_maligno [n=dr_malig@95.214.39.35] has joined #lisp 10:20:41 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:30:47 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:33:10 _deepfire, correct. It's pretty easy to set up, though, using the official tarball/SVN repo. I think any attempt to package it is almost bound to "do too much". 10:39:01 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 10:41:21 -!- dr_maligno [n=dr_malig@95.214.39.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:42:38 <_deepfire> Adlai, well, there's that (I hope undeniable) luxury of using uniform package management interfaces.. 10:43:23 <_deepfire> er, s/undeniable/uncontroversial/ 10:44:20 true, although debian CL packages don't seem to be a luxury 10:44:44 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:45:42 <_deepfire> Well, there's a difference between implementation packages and library packages. 10:46:22 <_deepfire> My take is that it is the latter which are causing the grief. 10:47:15 <_deepfire> Okay, I'm taking a stab at porting desire to CCL. 10:48:25 right now, my object of desire from *practical* pov is the feature level of RubyGems... cause they work on several different implementations, including one that is seriously different from the normal 10:49:10 emma_ [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 10:50:12 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 10:50:23 <_deepfire> p_l, what would you consider the minimum satisfactory set of implementations? 10:51:35 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 10:51:47 Good evening! 10:51:57 <_deepfire> Good evening Robert! 10:53:36 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:54:03 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 10:56:21 <_deepfire> Okay, "This implementation is modeled on - and uses some code from - similar facilities in CMUCL" sounds good. 10:56:36 <_deepfire> That is, about CCL's external executable invocation. 10:58:27 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-28-75.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 10:58:32 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:59:15 _deepfire: you know, I was actually thinking of implementing something like that in ECL and make it into standalone executable ;-) 10:59:30 but unfortunately, it's exam session right now 11:00:13 borisc [n=borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 11:02:12 <_deepfire> p_l, what were you thinking of implementing? 11:02:46 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:04:01 _deepfire: regarding package management 11:04:30 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:28 <_deepfire> p_l, have you written somewhere what you want to implement? 11:06:49 <_deepfire> I was actually pondering stealing whatever lispy has done and integrating it into desire, so that it begets an actual packaging system. 11:06:54 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:07:33 <_deepfire> Given that lispy is not that large at all, this seemed like a manageable task, but then I realised that the SBCL/linux only-ness is a bigger issue at this point. 11:07:48 lypanov [n=lypanov@s5591e4de.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 11:07:56 _deepfire: nothing I can put online at the moment - right now, getting my studies on track is primary goal 11:08:42 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:09:25 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!"] 11:09:57 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:11:33 addled [n=adl@77.208.113.137] has joined #lisp 11:15:05 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-232-178.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:17:08 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 11:17:20 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:25 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 11:23:09 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:26:57 -!- Larry65 [n=larry@d122-105-194-42.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:29:13 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f6629d4-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 11:29:13 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has joined #lisp 11:29:13 SBCL compiles (eq x :bar) to ; 0B2BBDA1: 3B0570BD2B0B CMP EAX, [#xB2BBD70] ; :BAR 11:29:13 that address changes with each compilation