00:02:58 so.. I read some texts about Lisp and um... I get it that Lisp is the best language 00:03:19 RaceCondition, that was quick. 00:03:47 :D 00:08:00 malsyned: actually I'm writing an application that mainly deals with generating random human language sentences based on a given set of words... so I thought it would be a lot easier to implement in Lisp... 00:08:55 that language is English as of now but it might change, so I thought Lisp could probably handle it far better in the future than Python could... or what do you think? 00:10:06 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:10:08 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:13 RaceCondition, well I'm not the man to ask, but I've heard of a lot of projects like that done in lisp. 00:10:52 hmm, yeah, but I'm a little bit afraid of converting the application to Lisp all over because of the HTTP, HTML, and DB parts... 00:11:44 Edi Weitz has cl-who, html-template, hunchentoot, and drakma which make up a swiss-army-knife for the HTTP/HTML parts. The DB stuff I don't know as much about. 00:12:44 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:09 Anybody know what "Iteration in LOOP follows body code" means in ECL? 00:13:51 <_3b> probably you put a FOR clause after something other than WITH, FOR, INITIALLY or FINALLY 00:13:52 (loop do (print "HELLO") for i to 10) is illegal 00:13:56 <_3b> (i think those are the ones) 00:14:44 <_3b> ah, missed NAMED 00:15:06 until/while? 00:15:12 _3b, ah. Well, I didn't, cl-gtk2 did. 00:15:25 ecl apparently has a problem with putting WHILE before FOR. 00:15:36 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:16:15 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:38 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.182.57.29] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:17:36 <_3b> malsyned: yeah, not an uncommon bug, since only a few implementations care, and writing it correctly can get annoying :) 00:18:18 <_3b> hmm, apparently SBCL cares now too, is that new? 00:18:51 <_3b> ah, only for DO, not WHILE 00:19:34 _3b, yeah, sbcl doesn't care about while. 00:20:10 -!- slash_ [n=drevil@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:20:56 *_3b* wonders if that is intentional or not 00:22:36 malsyned: I checked out those you mentioned, yeah... but still 00:23:47 RaceCondition, if you've never written any lisp before, porting an existing app to it when failure would be a problem is probably not a great idea. 00:23:54 that's true of any language really 00:25:06 malsyned: well it's not a realy business project (yet) so it's not that important... 00:25:29 but well, for example when it comes to writing HTML, I really prefer to do it in HTML not Lisp... :P 00:25:47 I'm referring to cl-who 00:25:49 RaceCondition, then HTML-TEMPLATE is your boy, not cl-who 00:25:59 yeah, I guess I have to check more stuff out 00:26:17 I've completed the first step (i.e. Lisp is the best language), now I need practice I guess :P 00:26:37 RaceCondition, yeah, good idea. PCL is definitely the place to start. 00:26:52 or maybe ANSI Common Lisp by Paul Graham. 00:26:59 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:27:04 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:55 Heh. ECL doesn't support weak hash tables. Shame on them. 00:28:22 RaceCondition, html-template is based on the perl module HTML::Template. You write HTML with little embedded codes for jumping out into lisp. 00:30:25 I found that the best resources for CL when starting out were PCL, CLHS, and PAIP 00:30:35 acronyms abound hehe 00:31:46 CLHS takes a little getting used to, and some of the content in PAIP is a little advance and not really necessary for learning CL 00:32:06 The chapters that are appropriate are pretty clear though 00:32:32 -!- unicode_ [n=user@95.214.27.242] has left #lisp 00:32:56 malsyned: I hate embedded code in HTML templates :P but well, I can just write my own templating system :D 00:34:26 RaceCondition, you can use html-template to just substitute variables that are passed in to the template. 00:34:54 -!- davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:14 If it's anything like the perl software it's from, anyway. 00:36:24 yes, html-template is good if you are used to something like php 00:36:39 or need to work with a designer : 00:36:43 :) 00:37:37 malsyned: yeah... actually I don't know why more people don't use it, but I find DOM (or some other) substitution/manipulation a much better approach 00:38:14 RaceCondition, you mean you do the replacement on the client-side? 00:39:17 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:24 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-52-9.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:43 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.204.61] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:41:40 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:41:43 malsyned: no, I mean, I get an HTML template that is pure HTML with example data and everything and I just modify that... do replacements, repeat certain XHTML elements in for loops, etc 00:42:11 malsyned: I wrote such a system in JS and it was maybe 70 lines of code and could do anything because all template logic was external to templates 00:42:33 RaceCondition, server-side javascript? 00:42:33 so I didnt have to worry about putting too much logic in my templates while being able to use any logic whatsoever for templates :P phenomenal! 00:42:45 malsyned: no, this particular case was on the client side, but it doesn't matter 00:42:56 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.2"] 00:43:10 So when I asked if you did replacement on the client side, and you said 'no', what you meant was, 'sometimes' 00:43:21 but isn't it irrelevant? 00:43:29 I was just curious. 00:43:52 oh, well yeah, this particular case was client side... and I've been thinking of giving server side JS a try because I could use common logic then 00:44:10 think progressive enhancement wise for example... no logic/template duplication 00:44:45 And it's not entirely irrelevant from an efficiency standpoint. You'd have to do a full parse of the HTML on the server side for every request. 00:44:51 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [] 00:45:34 malsyned: you can keep the parsed DOM in cache :) 00:46:13 Johanna_Krobitzs [n=chatzill@p57ACA9A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:46:17 ah well, I didn't say it was a perfect solution, but I liked the concept... arbitrarily complex template logic but no logic inside templates :P 00:46:29 It probably makes talking to the web designers easier. 00:46:47 yeah, I just let them design the page as it should look, with example data and everything 00:46:59 which has other advantages 00:48:26 -!- Johanna_Krobitzs [n=chatzill@p57ACA9A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:49:00 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:39 malsyned: I haven't understood yet really: does all Lisp development take place in an interactive environment? like SmallTalk? 00:50:06 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:08 RaceCondition, not exactly, but kinda. 00:50:23 so I would edit code in an interactive IDE, not a dumb text editor? 00:51:05 benny` [n=benny@i577A8222.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:51:11 RaceCondition, you can edit in a dumb text editor and then use the LOAD command to load the code into the lisp. A better idea, for larger systems, is to use ASDF which is like "make" for lisp. 00:51:34 What most people use is a combination of asdf and SLIME, which is an emacs mode for interacting with a running lisp interpreter. 00:51:37 emacs isn't your typical dumb editor though, hehe 00:52:09 learning to be proficient in emacs would probably be a bigger undertaking than Lisp... 00:52:20 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-106-236.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:32 RaceCondition, maybe. But since emacs is written mostly in a lisp dialect, a lot of the effort pays off twice. 00:53:05 RaceCondition, but like I say, you can use any text editor if you want and use asdf to compile and load the code. 00:53:49 malsyned: but that would be counter-productive because most people program in slime? :P 00:53:54 RaceCondition: the best open source lisp ide is emacs+slime. It may be difficult to use emacs at first, but it will extremely more difficult to not use it over the long run. 00:54:05 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:54:09 tmh: yeah, that's what I was afraid 00:54:25 that Lisp is more like a lifestyle, not a programming language :P 00:54:28 RaceCondition, it's true that eventually you'll probably want to pick up emacs. but, baby steps. 00:54:50 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:26 RaceCondition, it's not easy to find a good "hello world" that works in the style of other programming languages, but that's not because it's hard to write, just because most people don't do it. I'll whip one up for you (since I've been planning something like this anyway) 00:55:27 *pinterface* recalls hacking lisp in notepad, then shudders. 00:55:33 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:53 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-81.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:03 RaceCondition: As an example, I modified the argument list to a function then forgot to update the call and found myself in the debugger. I switched to the buffer with the call, updated the argument list, hit C-c C-c to compile that function, went back to the debugger and continued execution of the program. 00:56:43 That's the tip of the iceberg of the emacs+slime+lisp functionality. 00:56:58 td123 [n=tom@adsl-76-239-29-37.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:05 -!- benny` is now known as benny 00:57:24 tmh: yeah, I am aware that you can do stuff like that... and it actually feels more right than the standard edit, run, edit run loop 00:57:30 RaceCondition, just stick (format t "Hello, World!~%") in a file named hello.lisp and run it with sbcl --script hello.lisp or clisp hello.lisp 00:57:34 because it's more like real life works 00:57:53 malsyned: I think I actually knew that :) 00:58:00 but thanks :P 00:58:20 but yeah, sticking that in a function and running it in SLIME is what the cool kids do. 00:58:43 so say I want to deploy a hunchentoot app on WebFaction -- how? is it easy? 00:59:00 RaceCondition: Another nice thing about emacs+slime is that you can start your lisp image separate from emacs and leave a socket open. Then you can connect to that image from emacs, modify whatever it is doing, disconnect, close emacs and go on. 00:59:27 tmh: yeah, you can edit a live system 00:59:31 that what you mean? 00:59:51 so all my app is actually just that lisp image? no .lisp source files? 01:00:01 RaceCondition, you can go either way. 01:00:07 Yes, but also that emacs+slime gives you a powerful editor for connecting to the image for updating it. 01:00:15 so beautiful :) 01:00:30 but then how would you mostly do version management? 01:00:32 too powerful for real world 01:00:33 editing a live system remotely is why i've decided to learn lisp 01:01:06 because breaking live system is just a keystroke away 01:01:17 tmh is there info on doing that 01:01:30 RaceCondition, write all your code in files ending in .lisp. Version-control them. Write yourself a little script that loads them all into the lisp image. Or use asdf, which automates that process with bells and whistles and all the frills. 01:01:42 Guthur: Chapter 8 of the slime manual. 01:01:48 malsyned: is that what most Lisp programmers do? 01:01:57 tmh cheers 01:02:04 i really should read that 01:02:09 RaceCondition: most sane programmers 01:02:24 stassats: OK, so version management IS standard in Lisp? :P 01:02:42 RaceCondition, yeah. Most projects seem to use darcs, but mercurial or git would work just as well. 01:02:43 I mean, it's not ONLY the running image and emacs and nothing more 01:02:50 -!- bittin| [i=bittin@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-kvxqylezndmylojq] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:02:50 -!- Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-scmvxmpvntnubdkt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:03:06 darcs, nice, I've used darcs, I never thought it would be that popular amongst a community 01:03:17 RaceCondition, lispers and haskellers, mostly I think. 01:03:33 yeah, makes sense, although lately I've become more friends with git 01:03:39 *parolang* likes the emacs flow. :) 01:04:15 RaceCondition, I've been planning to write up a tutorial on the various ways a newbie can get started using and deploying lisp. But being a newbie myself, it's been a long time coming. Maybe I'll do it over vacation next week. 01:04:34 RaceCondition: one usually writes code in a file, then sends it via Slime to the Lisp, and then tests it within REPL 01:05:24 OK, that seems traditional enough 01:05:40 gonzojive [n=red@DNab42227c.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:06:00 but hmm, how does new code actually "merge" into a running environment? don't closures, for example, point to old functions? 01:06:24 or Lisp actually somehow deals with it? upgrades all existing code to use your new piece of code? 01:06:39 through indirection 01:06:41 RaceCondition, function calls happen through a level of indirection. 01:07:25 hmm, maybe I think too much in terms of puny languages 01:08:01 doing this certainly wouldn't help 01:08:30 Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-bvcexesdvsfjsvru] has joined #lisp 01:08:43 so if I have a closure that references function A, and I update function A globally, will that closure call the updated A? 01:09:02 actually, that's a bad example 01:09:40 OK what if I have a class with a method foo and I rename that method to bar... what happens to closures that are in memory that reference foo? 01:10:25 RaceCondition, in the first example, yes, your new foo will be called. 01:10:37 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-177.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:10:49 In your second example, those closures will signal a condition indicating that they tried to call a broken function. 01:10:53 er, a missing function. 01:10:57 the name's the thing, you see. 01:11:04 footeb [n=footeb@173-11-62-37-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:08 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:17 -!- td123 [n=tom@adsl-76-239-29-37.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:11:21 oh, so I'd be able to tell Lisp how to handle any errors? 01:11:41 RaceCondition, check out the chapter in PCL on the Condition system. It's like exceptions on steroids. 01:11:42 lisp has a powerful condition system 01:11:42 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-186-134.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:12:17 OK, will keep that in mind 01:12:27 is there anything in Lisp that is not powerful? 01:12:35 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 01:13:00 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229147057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:13:10 There are some deficiencies in lisp as described, but most of them can be fixed by libraries you can download. 01:13:13 <_3b> there are things that aren't powerful enough, or are powerful in the wrong direction if that counts :p 01:13:22 like what? 01:13:49 What's often not powerful enough in lisp is the programmer... 01:13:57 *_3b* would count LOOP in the 'not powerful enough' group, pathnames in the 'wrong direction' group 01:14:00 The pathname system needs something like the cl-fad library to round it out or there are some things it can't do. 01:14:31 LOOP is not extensible enough 01:14:38 The spec is silent on sockets, so you'll have to use something like usockets to wrap all of the various lisps' divergent socket systems. 01:14:52 likewise calling C functions, but CFFI purports to solve that problem. 01:15:03 <_3b> yeah, portably extensibility would probably fix LOOP for me 01:15:23 _3b, how about the ITERATE package? I haven't looked at it, but I've, you know, heard of it. 01:16:01 <_3b> malsyned: if that were in the standard instead of LOOP, that would probably fix the problem too 01:16:15 though, LOOP is quite powerful for me in the day to day life, and i miss it in other languages 01:16:33 <_3b> though having learned LOOP, i prefer reading it to ITERATE from what i've seen 01:16:35 how much more powerful do you really want it 01:16:40 _3b, well, I've come around to the acceptance phase of that problem. Lisp without some libraries on top of it is just not enough. 01:16:53 Guthur, it can't loop over custom data types. 01:16:55 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:57 frankly its the most complex single construct I have ever seen in a language 01:17:01 Guthur: by order of magnitude 01:17:10 <_3b> Guthur: lots of little edge cases 01:17:19 Guthur: you haven't tried format yet 01:17:29 lol aye i forgot format 01:17:36 I rarely use it to be honest 01:17:58 will have to face the beast some day though 01:19:05 <_3b> not handling generic sequences is another good example of a LOOP deficiency 01:19:43 you could probably just use a funky do loop, maybe 01:20:12 it's hard to handle generic sequences efficiently 01:20:33 without runtime dispatch 01:21:07 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f6677ae-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 01:21:14 <_3b> would still be nice to have when efficiency isn't needed though 01:23:09 konr [n=user@189.96.104.228] has joined #lisp 01:25:53 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-27-148.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:27:02 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:27:26 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 01:29:17 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-13-25.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 01:32:25 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:36:39 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.104.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:16 konr [n=user@189.96.104.228] has joined #lisp 01:37:30 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:28 gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 01:40:34 why were you discussing some lackings of Lisp if you can just go and change anything? 01:40:38 or you cant? I thought you could... 01:40:58 <_3b> you can, it is just extra work (or extra library dependencies) 01:41:29 <_3b> using ITERATE, or loading a separate LOOP implementation instead of using the built in one for example 01:41:39 you can't change LOOP in your own source code? 01:42:24 if other people are going to use your code it is not advisable 01:42:39 <_3b> i can use my own version of LOOP, but then there is a bunch of extra code sitting around for no good reason, confusing readers and probably having extra bugs 01:42:43 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-45-148.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:42:47 yeah 01:43:09 <_3b> to some extent that sort of thing depends on the size of the project 01:43:36 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 01:43:53 <_3b> for small libs, using stuff like that would waste space and annoy users, but for a huge project, it is more worthwhile to customize the environment more 01:44:53 <_3b> the other problem, is that if everyone sees similar problems, and fixes them independently, we end up with lots of duplicated code 01:45:25 <_3b> so it would have been better is they had been seen soon enough for the fix to be standardized 01:46:04 It's little bit of a shame the standard is completely stuck 01:46:08 <_3b> but since that is too late, we have to just hope alexandria or cltl3 or whatever gets popular and makes a defacto standard instead 01:47:12 Guthur: i like it that way, i'm lazy to learn anew each time it changes 01:48:27 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DNab42227c.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:31 spend more time trying libs though 01:49:28 i didn't, actually 01:49:45 i'm still using old hunchentoot 01:50:06 hehe well if you tried once and got it right thats different 01:50:40 Actually most are ok so... 01:51:08 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:54:31 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:31 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 01:54:51 where can I get good real life examples of Lisp code? 01:54:59 plage [n=user@113.161.70.110] has joined #lisp 01:55:02 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 01:55:03 preferrably web app 01:55:13 like Viaweb :P 01:55:22 with source code? 01:55:26 yeah 01:55:33 Lisp code with source code 01:56:08 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:56:32 I'm reading http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html and it claims that Viaweb had 25% macros and those macros were something that you couldn't implement in other languages and that gave the competitive advantage to Viaweb 01:56:46 so I'm just sincerely curious to see what they (or something equivalent) were all about 01:57:22 <_3b> you could try dwim.hu for an example of a big project that likes to heavily customize the environment (and is real life + web app + source) 01:58:24 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:24 nice, thanks 01:59:30 <_3b> maybe the rofl mao lol stack for more 'power of lisp' stuff, not sure if there are any big examples of end product with source using that though 02:00:30 <_3b> i think that leans more towards MOP power than macro power though 02:02:11 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-81.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:02:38 _3b in trying to find what your were talking about I got http://esolangs.org/wiki/Omgrofl 02:02:59 I assume that's not what you were talking about 02:03:26 qbg [n=chatzill@74.33.104.154] has joined #lisp 02:03:28 <_3b> heh, nope... lol= Lisp on Lines, rofl=relational objects for lisp, don't remember mao, wtf or ftw 02:04:15 drewc is very creative 02:08:50 <_3b> ah, apparently mao='meta attributed objects', ftw='find the world' 02:10:36 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 02:17:19 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-pmpvukuryctfemvn] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:18:15 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 02:18:56 prxq_ [n=mommer@f051172031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:20:11 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:22:11 billitch_ [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:11 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:12 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 02:23:18 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:23:43 RaceCondition: Skim through PG's "On Lisp" sometime. 02:24:11 If you want to have an idea of what PG thinks of when he talks about the power of lisp (POL?). 02:24:37 RaceCondition: It's free online, even in Debian as a package. 02:25:16 who's PG? 02:25:41 malsyned: you wanted an example of the anaphoric if in Io? 02:25:44 Paul Graham... 02:25:47 or you madnificent? 02:26:03 RaceCondition, that was me. Yeah, I'm curious. 02:26:03 parolang: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html ? 02:26:13 Yes. 02:26:21 malsyned: http://dpaste.com/145391/ works 02:26:31 It's good motivation for learning Lisp :) 02:26:40 malsyned: assuming I understood what you meant 02:28:31 RaceCondition, yeah, that looks pretty much like what I meant. 02:28:42 malsyned: of course I don't know how to NOT modify the caller context, but I assume it's possible 02:29:51 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:30:15 malsyned: I think it would probably be possible to write a Lisp style macro system as well 02:30:33 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g228001152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:34:38 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 02:38:34 RaceCondition, pretty cool 02:38:50 malsyned: yeah... I kinda like the syntax 02:39:07 like something between Lisp and Python 02:39:21 well, Lisp and any other language 02:40:37 I must have been using lisp too long, because I'm not fond of the syntax. 02:40:52 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.71.134] has joined #lisp 02:40:59 isn't the syntax similar to lisp? 02:41:12 lose the commas, and/move some parens... 02:42:21 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:42:28 That could be said about a lot of languages. 02:43:37 Yeah. Lisp's syntax is like the proto-syntax. The syntax for every other language is lisp with parens replaced with something else. 02:43:54 lisp has syntax? 02:44:11 That's just what I was thinking. 02:44:27 `#(it has ,some) 02:44:40 parens count, if nothing else. 02:44:42 stassats: I don't believe you! 02:45:02 '#:ok 02:45:06 You have syntax in LOOP and FORMAT, for example. But generally you are looking directly at the AST. Once you get accustomed to that, everything else seems verbose and cluttered. 02:45:12 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:45:20 I mean, in most languages you have to do a lot more transformation to get Lisp's syntax... 02:45:33 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 02:45:40 in Io it's just the method call syntax, the comma and slot assignments... 02:46:05 no? 02:46:06 I've wanted to dip my toe in Haskell and OCaml, but every time I look at an example I get a little nauseous. 02:46:36 tmh, Haskell's pretty nice once you get your fingers to stop reaching for the parens. OCaml's got a bit too much syntax for my taste. 02:46:53 billitch_ [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:53 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:46:53 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 02:47:07 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.71.134] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:47:53 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jxhxtxzftunhurxk] has joined #lisp 02:51:07 I keep flirting with Fortress as well. But I think it could use another 5 years of development. I don't have time to keep up with a moving target. 02:51:33 G'night everyone! 02:51:42 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:53:06 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:58:17 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:58:55 -!- Ri- is now known as Ri-|away 03:03:07 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:04:50 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:15:19 TDT [n=dthole@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:15:39 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:15:58 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-139-221-245.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:18:42 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:19:45 Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:07 For testing frameworks, what is a really good one to start with (besides lisp-unit) - I've heard a bit about asdf's test-op, but there's little I understand abotu it and google isn't really providing much. I'm right now writing an xmlrpc client that I would like to create tests for - trying TDD for a change with this application. With that in mind, I was thinking that perhaps stubbing out the xml-rpc server using the same library to accept the 03:20:08 and return what the documentation on the other server says - then test against that. Seems pretty heavyweight in a way with what perhaps I really should be doing. Are there any thoughts about a good testing strategy given this situation? 03:20:54 I'm using sbcl at the moment only, and will address multiple distributions later in the game..I just want to get the feel for doing TDD with this project a bit, so it's a bit of a "get my feet in the water" sorta thing. 03:21:06 asdf's test-op is just a command to start unit-testing 03:21:17 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-177.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:22:19 Ah ok, that helps clarify that then and explains why I didn't find much given what I was searching for. 03:24:31 XLUnit loks pretty good 03:24:39 LIFT also looks decent. 03:24:57 I haven't heard of any of these before, checking out a blog entry here: http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html 03:25:08 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:50 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:26:11 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:19 I'm pretty dopey, so good old RT is about all I can handle. 03:26:38 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:59 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:28:03 i like "plenty of angry users" unit testing 03:29:10 That is also easy to understand. 03:30:12 Out of curiosity, is anyone aware of projects similar to Movitz only a bit more bare to the bones. Trying to wrap my head around it recently but would enjoy if there was something a bit smaller to start off with. 03:30:51 stassats: Can't say I've heard of that, google isn't coming up with any hits either 03:32:01 stassats: the flaw in that system is when you don't have enough users to be angry :P 03:32:39 heh 03:32:58 fractali`: it's not lisp, but I bookmarked this a while ago: http://lukego.livejournal.com/16036.html 03:33:25 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:49 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:35:23 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 03:35:35 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:36:06 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:49 god TDD is going to be hard for me to wrap my head around...I ... gotta do it though 03:37:05 I don't test my code enough the way it is...heh 03:37:05 rme: Thanks, I'll check it out. 03:37:44 TDT: your name is pretty close to TDD 03:38:07 stassats: That's very true! hopefully my jump to TDD will not be too painful as a result :) 03:39:38 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:39:50 I wonder if this is a good time to start trying out clbuild too for projects 03:40:54 *stassats* wrote an ogg container reader, next stop, ogg vorbis reader 03:41:53 sounds more fun than what I'm doing. 03:43:36 actually playing it would be interesting, but i've no idea how to do this, yet 03:44:56 Well, depending on the systme, you could just offload that to another application. So you can read, print out information, maybe even have a server of sorts - then use something like applescript or dbus calls to whatever player software you want to support 03:45:42 that's no fun, i want everything in lisp 03:46:20 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:47 heh 03:47:58 Well, can't fault you for that 03:48:28 so in the distant future it can run on Movitz 03:54:56 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d81be0a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:01 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:59:59 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 04:01:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 04:02:51 grumps [n=grumps@adsl-99-132-137-227.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:13 perhaps a dumb question, but any help would be greatly appreciated: would like to create a sha1 hash per git's convention of null (i.e. http://progit.org/book/ch9-2.html)...what is the optimal way of constructing a string with the null char between the other two? 04:05:14 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:16 stassats: decode to raw PCM and dump to /dev/dsp? 04:05:31 Ralith: that's an easy part 04:05:38 what's the hard part? 04:05:45 the hard part is "decode to PCM" 04:05:56 that was part of what I just said 04:07:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:07:21 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:02 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:17 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:48 Hmm..this is kinda a slime related question, but say we're defining and changing thigns a lot, is there a good way to be able to reload a lisp file back into slime by first clearing out all the variables and starting as if it was fresh (with libraries loaded). I know I can restart-inferior-lisp, but the time it takes to reload everything is pretty high when I do that. 04:11:11 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d818954.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:11:22 you can create a customized image with libraries preloaded 04:11:27 TDT: make an image with the things you don't want to reinit? 04:11:30 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:31 TDT: and/or switch to CCL 04:11:50 or do push-ups while it's compiling 04:12:01 CCL compiles stuff so much faster than SBCL you'll think it broke 04:12:35 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 04:12:54 Hmm...I can't say I've used CCL before - but something I should maybe look into. The custom image, that's a curious idea, Ralith, how is that done? 04:13:01 grumps: something like (concatenate 'string "blob 17" (string #\null) "I'm 17 characters") 04:13:30 TDT: not something I've ever bothered to do; check SBCL docs 04:13:31 then you'd want to encode that string into some encoding and hash it. 04:13:42 CCL's easy to get set up, though 04:14:11 TDT: with save-lisp-and-die 04:14:27 minion: slad? 04:14:28 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``slad''. 04:14:36 aw 04:14:40 stassats: ah ok, so the same for the executable. Reloading it I'd have to look up. 04:14:43 minion: creating executables? 04:14:44 creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 04:16:15 rme: thank you for the response. ironically, it looks like simply adding \0 results in the same thing...so it looks like the copy/pasted hash-password function from the ironclad docs may be the source of my pain 04:16:17 CL-USER> (hash-password (concatenate 'string "blob 16" (string #\null) "what is up, doc?")) 04:16:18 "2da50fd801e7cbad0defc16fa2b0323fb5923ef6" 04:16:18 CL-USER> (hash-password "blob 16\0what is up, doc?") 04:16:18 "2da50fd801e7cbad0defc16fa2b0323fb5923ef6" 04:16:52 sorry - shouldve used paste.lisp.org 04:18:45 Hmm, another option too I just thought of 04:19:02 I could run an init shell script that loads the test file, runs the tests, and reports the results 04:19:17 oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:28 That way I test as I need to in slime, but run from the shell the actual tests...so reloading slime isn't neededat all 04:20:06 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:23:24 So, I've been rekindling my love for Lisp recently - kind of overwhelmed by the options of web servers available, is there a certain one that seems to be on the top of the game or anyone would be willing to recommend? 04:23:38 hunchentoot 04:24:24 stassats: Thanks, that's what I've been looking at currently, wanted to see if I was headed in the right direction. 04:28:44 -!- phadthai_ is now known as phadthai 04:30:14 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:52 -!- grumps [n=grumps@adsl-99-132-137-227.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:34:28 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:09 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:45 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:38:15 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:48 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:43:06 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jxhxtxzftunhurxk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:43:43 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-177.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:44:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:47:21 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-223-205.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:10 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:35 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-81.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:41 -!- lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-198-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:04 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rxidwtlibzysclnk] has joined #lisp 05:07:29 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.104.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:07:46 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:01 konr [n=user@189.96.104.228] has joined #lisp 05:09:32 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:10:12 When running sbcl-related scripts, is there a way to quiet the output from the headers. The documentation said the --noprint and --noinform would do it, but that doesn't appear to really be working. I'm trying to remove stuff such as the: ; loading system definition from ..., and so on. Running from a shell is very annoying to have that print all the time. 05:10:17 Any CLSQL users - how do you perform a "select" with a join in it? 05:10:30 TDT: --script? 05:12:42 stassats: no change 05:12:50 how do you run it? 05:13:04 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:13:42 Modius: you define the joins through your clsql-define-view-class or whatever it's called, and the :db-kind is :join, and you map it out there. the clsql:select 'your-class-file ..., will automatically include the join, and you can call the accessor on that joined table to get back that object. 05:13:56 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:14:31 stassats: I've tried through both cl-launch, creating the shell, as well as saying: sbcl --script run-tests.lisp, which prints out that information yet at the top 05:15:06 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:13 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rxidwtlibzysclnk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:15:18 passing --noinform and --noprint before the --script option doesn't help either 05:16:01 tomdebenning [n=tomdeben@64-71-25-34.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 05:16:25 (declaim (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note)) <-- ah hah, this may work 05:16:46 -!- tomdebenning is now known as BlueBlazer 05:16:51 oh, you're complaining about compiler notes? 05:18:22 assumping that's what they are, yes. 05:18:46 If I"m going to run this often, either through the use of inotifywait or whatever, I can just see these debug notices getting horribly annoying over time 05:19:25 just save an image 05:20:44 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-19-159.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:20:49 -!- BlueBlazer [n=tomdeben@64-71-25-34.static.wiline.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:21:04 BlueBlazer [n=BlueBlaz@64-71-25-34.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 05:21:21 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:21:34 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:21 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:01 -!- BlueBlazer [n=BlueBlaz@64-71-25-34.static.wiline.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:29:00 I may have to do that. Would like to prevent creating too many images as I want to have the freedom to change things on the fly as much as possible, especially since this is the testing framework. Ah well..it's getting late tonight. Good night stassats since you're the only one active right now :) 05:29:14 -!- TDT [n=dthole@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 05:29:32 -!- footeb [n=footeb@173-11-62-37-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:37 oh well, another night went by hacking lisp 05:30:40 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 05:32:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-irxrkplddefzrabw] has joined #lisp 05:33:10 Goodnight TDT. 05:33:43 *stassats* is now able to read Ogg vorbis metadata 05:33:56 gigamonkey: your binary-data package was very helpful 05:34:09 stassats: excellent. 05:34:59 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:02 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:43 whoah, is that really... _the_ author? Peter Seibel? 05:35:53 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-162.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:09 Yup. 05:36:34 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:36:35 It is a small world I guess... You got me started! 05:36:43 Glad to hear it! 05:37:37 oconnore_: this is a lisp channel, no wonder 05:38:11 isn't there a quote from "Xach of #lisp" on the back cover? 05:38:15 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 05:38:19 Yeah, but if you join #microsoft, I guarantee Bill Gates isn't there. 05:38:20 Front cover, even. 05:38:27 oh, front 05:38:28 I actually found a really useful web site when checking out Lisp success stories... I never new anything like that even existed: http://matrix.itasoftware.com/ 05:38:45 Similarly, you probably won't find Kent Pitmann here. 05:38:54 Matrix actually exists? 05:38:59 lol 05:39:26 i always knew it's written in Lisp 05:39:32 I mean, I used to search for flights on 3 or 4 separate sucky web sites... and now there's this incredibly fast and convenient app 05:40:13 stassats: no, there were too many bugs :P 05:40:37 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:40:54 a couple pointer errors and all of a sudden you can jump buildings 05:41:32 oconnore_: cant you just connect emacs to matrix and debug the issue? 05:42:54 well that would be nice, but in the movie they had to shut the whole thing down 05:44:49 maybe it's because they were memleaking? 05:45:03 perhaps 05:45:40 i've actually been resisting emacs for some time... 05:45:52 i think it is time to switch 05:46:13 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 05:47:14 -!- fractali` [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:23 I switched to emacs after using vi for 10 years. I was very resistant at first, but now I'm kicking myself for not having learned emacs in the first place. 05:48:12 tmh: go tell that to vim users! :-) 05:48:25 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 05:48:30 Any editor that comes with an REPL, let's you modify it on the fly and can just about act as an entire interface layer on an OS should not be ignored. 05:48:40 my biggest problem was i hated the control- keybindings 05:48:51 That was mine as well. 05:48:55 but i just remapped those today, so i think i will give it a second chance 05:49:11 oconnore_: what are you using at the moment for lisp? 05:49:14 No! Learn the standard ones. Also, get an ergonomic keyboard. 05:49:25 sbcl 05:49:32 why learn the standard? 05:49:36 they hurt! 05:50:18 Because it creates too many headaches in major and minor modes when you have too many non-standard keybindings. 05:51:16 oconnore_: the trick is in swapping CapsLock with LeftControl. 05:51:28 oconnore_: do not use a PC keyboard, use a true computer keyboard! 05:51:28 oconnore_: I mean, if you don't use emacs, what editor do you use? 05:52:07 oh, i was using vim, with some fancy vimscripts to give me indentation and repl integration 05:52:07 oconnore_: Or get something like a Kinesis where the Ctrl keys are under your thumbs 05:52:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard 05:52:49 oconnore_: I hesitate to mention this, but vim has integration with lisp. 05:53:11 minion: tell oconnore_ about limp 05:53:12 oconnore_: look at limp: Limp, a Lisp IDE for vim. http://www.cliki.net/limp 05:53:59 It doesn't come close to emacs+slime, but if you insist on vi(m)... 05:54:01 I love the thumbs up/down 05:54:09 right. slimv is actually a little bit nicer from what i've seen 05:54:13 still not as good as slime 05:54:44 pjb - right now i have caps lock swapped with escape 05:54:53 so meta- commands are easy 05:55:05 Kinesis keyboard - ctrl-alt is just a thumb drop 05:55:35 (actually, I just removed caps lock, which is useless. I've got a caps-mode in emacs when I need all upper case input). 05:56:52 plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has joined #lisp 05:56:58 oconnore_: you really probably want caps-lock (assuming it's just to the left of "a" to be a control key. 05:57:06 You use control much more in Emacs than Meta. 05:57:12 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:57:51 The space cadet has always scared me, I mean CTRL, META, SUPER, HYPER? I have enough trouble remember whether some chords are C- or M- 05:58:17 tmh: the funny thing, standard PC keyboard has all of those ... :P 05:58:56 *p_l* uses Super as general prefix for XMonad keybindings 05:59:36 p_l: I've seen SUPER masquerading as a windows key, but HYPER? 05:59:49 aka "Menu" 05:59:57 Hmm, I guess it was just a vim-bias. Thanks for the tips gigamonkey & pjb & tmh 06:00:14 and AltGr can be reconfigured as Compose 06:01:11 p_l: Oh, I was thinking that menu and windows were just left and right SUPER. 06:03:37 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:11:15 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:02 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-83.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 06:16:26 -!- bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:37 are there any prototype based OO systems for Lisp? CLOS is class based, I get 06:21:01 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-81.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22:50 RaceCondition: Sheeple, CLON 06:23:23 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 06:24:01 There are also older systems like KR available. 06:24:43 yeah, but I suspect that for someone new to CL getting KR to run would be harder than Sheeple or CLON :) 06:24:44 Actually, I'm not sure if Orbit compiles for CL, and I think Object Lisp never did... 06:24:58 actually, CLON is very similar to KR afaict 06:25:20 sykopomp: maybe (haven't checked) but iirc CLON was asdf-loadable :) 06:25:26 I'm no expert on either, but I think CLON is KR without contstraints, but with method-queueing. 06:26:00 KR is just a single file. Making it asdf-loadable is a matter of putting the file in there and loading it like your own source. 06:27:49 sykopomp: maybe I mixed up due to my recent experiments with Garnet 06:28:45 what does it take for a module to be asdf-loadable? does it have to adhere to some semantic rules? 06:29:01 it has to have an asdf system definition. 06:29:03 -!- derrida [n=derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:29:15 that's pretty much it, and I guess some semantic constraints that I'm sure faré can tell you all about. 06:29:33 so it's nothing really big? just some configuration? 06:29:44 it's like a make file of sorts. 06:30:17 it defines how to load a bunch of different files, usually lisp source files, and what their dependencies are. 06:30:30 and you can have asdf systems depend on other asdf systems, so the whole thing gets loaded. 06:30:51 ooh, that's what it means, OK 06:33:35 -!- qbg [n=chatzill@74.33.104.154] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054634]"] 06:40:35 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-irxrkplddefzrabw] has left #lisp 06:40:44 RaceCondition: before various defsystem facilities (with MK-defsystem and later ASDF becoming the popular&portable choice), for portable loading method you basically needed a manually tailored file full of (load ...) forms with conditionals 06:41:46 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:53 just like Unix programmers had to write shell scripts calling cc before someone wrote make as an experiment ;-) 06:57:39 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:00:06 p_l: yeah, I just for some reason thought that asdf meant that all of the source is aware of being loadable 07:00:20 I guess I confused it with hot swapping live code 07:00:35 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 07:00:56 OK, good night 07:01:28 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has quit [] 07:02:04 Sukoshi`` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:23 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 07:05:05 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:12:06 -!- Ober [i=ober@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:12:10 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:13:11 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:58 -!- rme [rme@clozure-51821EF0.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 07:13:59 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:15:15 Ober [i=ober@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 07:18:53 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:19:58 -!- GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@vpn3-1451.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:24 I realized the other day that lambda isn't necessarily a good primitive. 07:24:07 You can break it down into an operator which effectively drops you back to a higher environment for its body, and then do expansion in there. 07:24:11 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:26:05 Indeed, you can use S, K, and T instead... 07:26:10 s/T/I/ 07:35:04 Once you have that, the compiler can practically use beta-abstraction to compress infinitely large programs down to something finite. 07:35:45 So you can just use substitution without a function primitive. 07:40:59 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f66247f-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 07:42:51 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.152.212] has joined #lisp 07:44:26 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:45:52 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 07:46:16 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 07:46:35 morning 07:46:40 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:51:29 hello prxq 07:51:42 hi plage! 07:52:23 *mathrick* gets annoyed by RESTART-BIND and RESTART-CASE doing things in the opposite order 07:56:13 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:45 nostoi [n=nostoi@234.Red-79-150-169.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:06 -!- addled1 [n=addled@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:02:26 howdy! 08:02:57 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.152.212] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:05:23 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hydlrzaaizywinav] has joined #lisp 08:07:59 addled [n=alawson@21.Red-81-38-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:01 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:14 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:12 Adlai` [n=adlai@93-173-117-193.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 08:10:13 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:10:13 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit 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[n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 08:13:10 Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:34 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:13:36 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [K-lined] 08:13:37 -!- partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has quit [K-lined] 08:13:38 good morning 08:13:45 splittist [i=3ecb709f@gateway/web/freenode/x-ywbnfbvfblajvnqe] has joined #lisp 08:13:45 morning 08:18:26 hello mvilleneuve, hello splittist 08:19:28 plage: how was your week? 08:20:26 Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 08:25:54 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 08:26:47 This mobile office thing is nice. I could sure get used to it. 08:27:18 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:35 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:29:35 smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.236] has joined #lisp 08:30:07 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 08:33:06 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:20 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:23 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 08:35:45 ASau` [n=user@77.246.231.4] has joined #lisp 08:40:14 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:32 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@234.Red-79-150-169.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:40:32 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Broken pipe] 08:40:33 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:40:55 mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 08:41:34 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:22 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:22 16:32:22 -!- names: ccl-logbot Joreji claudia20100115 gigamonkey soupdragon alley_cat sepult l_a_m mattrepl parolang ikki retroj dlowe wgl setheus milanj jleija HET3 Soulman__ ineiros carlocci LiamH lukego TDT rrice Yuuhi fractalis rdd blackened` Athas morphling Adrinael rajesh Harag legumbre Jasko spradnyesh ignas billstclair wlr Adlai Jabberwockey silenius Alabaman fiveop Edico marcoecc kejsaren1 nowhere_man daniel_ pbusser Hun s0ber as_ saba_ bdowning pjb 16:32:22 -!- names: reb madnificent ianmcorvidae stassats` bunz spn Krystof tcr moesenle hoeq anair_84 hohum ragnul Carnegie emma_ FullMetalHarlot kingdon_ amaron levente_meszaros freiksenet Beetny stepnem mathrick Soulman Ralith Dodek splittist mvilleneuve Borbus bakkdoor codemonkeyx tarbo aking johs jsnell rapacity ``Erik rlonstein guenthr luis scode krappie pok Zhivago guaqua peddie joga pragma_ zbigniew p8m ironChicken Xof Legoolas lharc franki^ pkhuong 16:32:22 -!- names: joast wasabi___ rullie sjbach clog Tristam rotty_ PissedNumlock lupine_85 EwS z0d ecraven tic Fade mtd froydnj egn rbancroft nicktastic erg aja skeptomai|away kuwabara2 Xach manituuuu BrianRice mle PuffTheMagic tvaalen Pepe_ sykopomp mikezor ud jyujin Orest^bnc prip Intensity jamesstanley Wraithan drwho skeptical_p nasloc__ mgr hypno jsoft newfurniturey Raptelan ASau Xantoz Dra`vi dmiles_afk Axioplase_ bill` ski qeb`away lusory phadthai 16:32:22 -!- names: foom2 Aisling antoszka sleepydog Stattrav koollman benny xenosoz2 dnm_ Modius slyrus jrockway Ober potatishandlarn peterwang GrayGnome` addled Spaghettini Khisanth lpolzer_ kpreid wakeup^ araujo prxq arbscht tsuru Tordek spacebat redline6561 hicx174 p_l fe[nl]ix sellout a-s lisppaste Nshag plan9 raison svaksha saikatc xinming Adamant cmeow Helheim dcrawford clop bfein tychoish herbieB_ kefka ryepup lukjad007 CrazyEddy spoofy djinni` eno 16:32:22 -!- names: G0SUB Madsy Demosthenes sledge keltor srcerer bipt antifuchs swilde Fufie lnostdal fgtech koning_robot smithzv AntiSpamMeta thijso boyscared _3b` sytse retupmoca re-l nuba blast_hardcheese Yamazaki-kun kleppari danderson yahooooo schme rsynnott spec[away] dfox neaer dto fihi09 Ri-|away whoppix Taggnostr ivan4th Holcxjo mornfall weirdo chii lemoinem housel hdurer ve xristos Ginei_Morioka specbot Buganini nullman joshe minion yacin DrForr 16:32:22 -!- names: ramus j0ni dym guaq_ _3b cupe REPLeffect_ cataska Patzy _deepfire rootzlevel xan alexbobp fnordus borism dalkvist tltstc felipe cpt_nemo frodef foom easyE derefed anekos kencausey gz rey_ cods djm defn 16:33:58 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:05 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:35:54 -!- mvilleneuve 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has joined #lisp 17:01:32 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@94-195-207-239.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:02:46 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.152.212] has joined #lisp 17:02:51 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.152.212] has left #lisp 17:03:43 jeeez [n=jeez@117.193.165.84] has joined #lisp 17:04:20 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:04:27 hey, what lisp do i use to learn the language? :-\ 17:04:37 SBCL 17:04:38 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 17:04:42 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 17:04:50 esj [n=esj@95-177-14-146.mancomm.managedbroadband.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:04:55 jeeez: what platform? On Linux, go with SBCL, on OSX/Windows, go with CCL 17:05:06 i'm on ubuntu 17:05:21 sbcl it is! 17:06:58 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:07:02 i guess common lisp wins over scheme? 17:07:19 jeeez , no 17:07:33 they are both cool 17:07:49 i meant in this specific case! nothing general :) 17:09:20 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:24 -!- egn [n=egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:09:33 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:09:39 -!- tychoish [n=tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:09:42 jeeez: common lisp wins for learning common lisp. Scheme wins for learning scheme. 17:10:13 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:25 splittist: okay, i don't know enough to have made that comment! my apologies! :| 17:10:31 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 17:11:46 jeeez: no need to apologise. A cash gift will be sufficient (: 17:12:22 splittist: i will give you the first money i make with lisp code! :) 17:13:05 jeeez: if you agree to post a picture of your first lisp earnings, it's a deal! 17:16:18 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:33 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:31 -!- FullMetalHarlot [n=root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:35 tychoish [n=tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:57 egn [n=egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:16 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:37 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:25:05 -!- jeeez [n=jeez@117.193.165.84] has left #lisp 17:26:28 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 17:26:42 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 17:30:03 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-83.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:31:18 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:06 Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-14.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:35:45 Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.12.196] has joined #lisp 17:37:17 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:37:36 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:42:05 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 17:45:44 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:46:20 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-5-246.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:47:02 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:49:26 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 17:49:29 -!- Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-14.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:51:16 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:52 SimonH [n=simonh@92.28.43.151] has joined #lisp 17:53:10 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:27 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:51 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D7DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:42 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:09 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:10 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:42 -!- SimonH [n=simonh@92.28.43.151] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:02:46 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:14 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:39 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-70-230.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:04:15 -!- saba_ [n=saba@94.136.88.17] has quit ["leaving"] 18:06:02 cobol000 [n=r4y@p5496C71D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:06 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:26 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:26 amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:11:43 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:14:25 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:28 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:15 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:17:31 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:17:32 -!- esj [n=esj@95-177-14-146.mancomm.managedbroadband.co.uk] has quit [] 18:17:46 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:19:49 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:54 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:07 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-16-67.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:20:34 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 18:20:44 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-5-246.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:53 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:11 -!- rme [rme@clozure-51821EF0.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 18:21:11 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:24:52 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-83.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 18:27:52 what's a common package for connecting to relational databases? CLSQL? 18:31:28 cools: CLSQL if you like pain and/or databases other than postgresql... otherwise i highly recommend postmodern 18:31:32 minion: postmodern? 18:31:32 postmodern: Postmodern is a library for interacting with PostgreSQL databases through SQL. http://www.cliki.net/postmodern 18:32:00 *drewc* has a deep seated hatred for clsql's stupid reader syntax 18:33:29 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:03 anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:47 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:34:47 drewc: thanks, i was checking out CLSQL and was getting a bunch of errors getting it to compile so i wanted to know if there were other alternatives 18:38:26 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:39:47 is common-lisp-controller going to be removed from debian? anybody know why, and what effect that will have on use of common lisp in debian? 18:40:03 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:31 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:42:32 retroj: a) Lets hope so. b) because it's a horrible solution for developers and not that great for packagers c) It will hopefully make lisp developers lives easier at the expense of making it more difficult to package CL applications, for debian, that can be delivered under multiple lisps, and wants to be loaded from fasls into a lisp. 18:43:57 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 18:44:01 i am a newbie to asdf. how should i install something which is not available as a debian package? 18:44:02 Is Ironclad what the cool kids are using for crypto stuff in CL these days? 18:44:23 retroj: first, uninstall everything related to lisp that debian installed for you. 18:44:27 -!- antoszka is now known as nabuchodonozor 18:44:35 gigamonkey: i do believe so, yes. 18:44:57 -!- nabuchodonozor is now known as Guest48088 18:44:59 drewc: you're serious? 18:45:03 retroj: yes 18:45:08 -!- Guest48088 is now known as antoszka 18:45:12 retroj: yes 18:45:28 retroj: well, you can keep SBCL for one more step... 18:45:32 what is the better way to set it up? 18:45:38 minion: tell retroj about clbuild 18:45:39 retroj: i had problems getting slime working cause i used the debian packages. the solution was to get rid of lisp_controller and build from source 18:45:39 retroj: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 18:46:12 retroj: use you debian-provided binary to build sbcl from source using clbuild, and use clbuild to install libraries 18:46:22 retroj: i was using sbcl, by build from source i mean building sbcl 18:46:37 retroj: if you need to use something that is not in clbuild, then you should read the asdf manual 18:46:40 minion: ASDF? 18:46:41 ASDF: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/ASDF 18:46:59 you can get clbuild to install custom systems, though 18:47:53 i'm using clisp right now. does that change anything? 18:48:05 retroj: why are you using clisp? 18:48:22 clbuild should work fine with clisp, althuogh I'm not sure if clisp includes asdf by default. 18:48:37 (it's easy to load if it doesn't) 18:48:41 because i could not figure out how to get the debian package for net-telent-date to work with debian's sbcl 18:49:09 retroj: what platform? Debian? Don't use debian packages, grab at most SBCL and tools necessary for clbuild to work 18:49:20 retroj: unless you actually need clisp, you're probably looking at more trouble than it's worth... most of us here use SBCL especiailly on linux. 18:49:41 k 18:49:44 (you should be able to use clisp to build sbcl, but it's best to use sbcl) 18:50:27 *Adlai* uses both SBCL and CCL; the latter may be quicker to install/set up 18:50:29 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-48-129.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:42 retroj: so, you asked what dropping c-l-c from debian will do? hopefully, we'll never have to have that conversation with a debian-using n00b again. 18:51:09 :D 18:51:26 I fully support dropping c-l-c from debian. 18:51:27 retroj: some people use clisp 18:51:42 just to give a bit of objectivity 18:51:50 *p_l* was interested in less crappy equivalent to c-l-c 18:52:01 CLC doesn't actually do *anything* these days except setup ASDF sensibly by default...and now it doesn't even do that. 18:52:10 Guthur: some people use Gold Hill apparently... but if retroj want 18:52:11 (in testing/unstable) 18:52:17 so all of debian's common lisp stuff is hopelessly bad and broken? 18:52:18 's supprot from us it's a good idea to use what we use :) 18:52:23 retroj: yes 18:52:25 if you're using lenny, CLC works fine 18:52:33 It's not broken at all. 18:52:39 drewc: last i looked this was #lisp not #sbcl 18:52:47 *retroj* is running squeeze 18:53:01 'morning 18:53:05 Guthur: last i checked 80% of use here ran SBCL... have you other knowledge that i lack? 18:53:18 if you're using squeeze, CLC isn't "on" by default anymore 18:53:21 Nope, just saying 18:53:21 (it's probably closer to 70% now, with CCL taking up the slack) 18:53:28 -!- amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["leaving"] 18:53:29 which basically makes it look like it doesn't work right 18:53:29 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=560781 18:53:31 Guthur: yes, but it happens that most users here ran, in order, SBCL, CCL, {ACL,ECL,ABCL,LW} ;-) 18:54:05 Guthur: are you going to hold retroj's hand to get clisp up and running with clbuild under debian squeeze? 18:54:15 does anybody (here) regularly use SCL? 18:54:17 p_l: I know, I use SBCL 18:54:31 foom: the problem with CLC isn't that it's broken by itself per-se... 18:54:34 drewc: I'd agree with the no debian 18:54:58 Adlai: I looked into it, but it didn't have any visible advantages for me at the moment. Maybe If I got a SPARC 18:55:08 only problem with clisp that I seen was its slime integration was terrible 18:55:20 I haven't used it in ages though 18:55:47 drewc: so what's the problem then? 18:56:04 foom: the problem is in interacting with the outside world. 18:56:20 the debian supplied sbcl is useful for building sbcl /w clbuild 18:56:21 foom: and putting .fasls compiled by root in places i can't write! 18:56:37 drewc: uhhhh? 18:56:42 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:48 drewc: it puts fasls in a cache dir organized by uid 18:57:07 foom: well, it didn't do that 5 years ago! :P 18:57:12 lol 18:57:31 i think we have to admit that c-l-c could have improved in five years. :) 18:57:47 it's people like you who made Peter break CLC in squeeze. :( 18:57:58 it was never clear to me what c-l-c does; it's installed on my machine, and it doesn't interfere with my clbuild images. 18:58:32 foom: having seen many a newbie come by and get bit by some obscure clc caused error, and seeing no purpose behind c-l-c beyond causing newbies grief, I can fully say that the broken clc is no less usless to me that the non-broken one :) 18:58:57 *drewc* is not sure what he just said 18:58:57 drewc: the purpose is to allow the use of debian packaged lisp libraries 18:59:01 what is the actual function of c-l-c? 18:59:09 ah 18:59:23 so it marshals permissions and whatnot? 18:59:26 nope 18:59:31 Fade: it sets the default asdf:*central-registry* to point to the system-installed sources 18:59:36 and it sets up a binary location for fasls 18:59:45 which is in /var/lib and dependent upon your lisp implementation and uid 18:59:51 er, in /var/cache, sorry 19:00:26 that's a good idea in theory, but it doesn't hold up in practice. 19:00:32 it must be french technology. 19:01:14 when i download a new C compiler, debian does not go re-installing every application written in C in a new directory compiled with this new compiler... 19:01:28 the whole approach to 'release' in the lisp world is orthogonal to the release engineering practices in debian. :/ 19:01:35 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:01:59 we're forced to cleave to the revision control system. 19:02:03 drewc: similar process happens for GHC and Ruby 19:02:09 I guess this is why lisp works better in gentoo and arch. 19:02:15 Fade: That's not really my experience. 19:02:21 Fade: The libraries I use most actually do release. 19:02:57 Fade: I think in part I use them *because* they release, but they still cover a lot of the useful things I need to do. 19:02:59 Xach: how do you set up your development environment? 19:03:04 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 19:03:16 Fade: It's a little like a manual libcl 19:03:22 I grab release tarballs. 19:03:45 *Fade* nods 19:03:52 I don't use asdf-install directly, but I do use a program that fetches tarballs using cliki asdf-install metadata 19:04:15 are there any specific advantages to using darcs with Lisp compared to other VCS'es? 19:04:20 RaceCondition: No. 19:04:23 are you saying that c-l-c reinstalls all common lisp packages whenever you upgrade the compiler? 19:04:34 i've been using clbuild for awhile now, which is definitely the path with least impedance, but things often break. 19:04:35 Xach: what a robotically quick answer 19:05:27 Xach: so it's just an established tradition/convention of the community, nothing more? 19:05:36 darcs use? 19:05:36 RaceCondition: I haven't noticed it as an established tradition. 19:05:37 RaceCondition, I think more people are using git nowadays 19:05:58 Adlai: I remember being told here yesterday that most Lisp people use darcs 19:06:00 lisp people use git, darcs, mercurial, subversion, and cvs 19:06:15 I don't think you can generalise. git is pretty popular. 19:06:16 retroj: well, it has to... one verison of sbcl is not likely able to load compiled code from a previous version 19:06:18 RaceCondition: Some people use it, many people don't. The people who use it haven't clearly explained what specific Lisp angle it might hold, and I don't think they will. 19:06:28 ok 19:06:56 Xach: OK, got it... darcs is actually cool but I guess git and mercurial have a greater momentum these days... 19:07:28 many more used to use darcs and have switched to git than vice-versa, and those are the popular two 19:07:53 I was a darcs user for about four years, and I switched to git, because I couldn't keep a living toolchain to build darcs on all my systems architectures. 19:07:54 CVS and SVN are fairly common, but only in long-running projects that haven't bothered to switch (SBCL, CCL, Slime) 19:08:06 but what does that have to do with lisp? 19:08:12 nothing 19:08:20 ok, that's what i thought. 19:08:25 minion: cl-darcs? 19:08:26 Yes, the question is easy to answer quickly because of the Lisp connection. 19:08:26 cl-darcs: cl-darcs is a client for the darcs version control system written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-darcs 19:08:50 I just thought darcs was for Lisp like emacs or smth 19:08:51 Adlai: Actually, CCL did switch fairly recently, but from CVS -> SVN, because OS X comes with SVN. 19:08:56 RaceCondition: nope. 19:09:16 sellout, is there by any chance a dvcs mirror? 19:09:21 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 19:09:23 minion: smth? 19:09:24 Adlai: Not yet. 19:09:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``smth''. 19:09:27 RaceCondition: recently git is starting to be much more popular, possibly in big part due to github/gitorious/repo.cz 19:09:43 drewc: Do you use logical pathnames? 19:09:53 p_l: yeah... and I also think it's becoming a bit more powerful than darcs, although not nearly as convenient 19:10:00 gigamonkey: yes, ironclad is more-or-less where it's at for crypto, I think 19:10:11 ironclad releases. and it's documented! 19:10:14 thanks froydnj! 19:10:17 gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:38 Xach: sadly, no... it's an area i've always wanted to explore 19:10:39 sellout, what do you think are the chances of a dvcs mirror ? 19:10:41 RaceCondition: well, GIT is more of a content-addressed data storage... what way you use it depends on you, the default tools come with versioned filesystem ;-) 19:11:03 drewc: I'm biting the bullet today for it. 19:11:05 I tried using git-svn, but it couldn't deal with the externals feature 19:11:42 Xach: you're welcome! 19:11:49 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:53 gigamonkey: of course, some areas are woefully incomplete... 19:11:54 Xach: what's the use case, and will we get a blog post out of it? 19:12:13 lately git has a documentation advantage in the form of a free to the wire book from apress, which is ++useful. 19:12:18 Adlai: No idea. I would like one, but Apple will probably have to include a dvcs with OS X first. 19:12:42 drewc: sick of merging pathnames with a special to reference project files. my thinking is logical pathnames (with possibly locally-customized translations) I can do away with that garbage. 19:13:15 Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 19:13:17 *Adlai* hopes apple will pick git :) 19:13:20 this is just the Nth time i've needed what i now think they provide. 19:13:37 *Xach* will see 19:13:45 well, git doesn't depend on any exotic tools, so it's likely agood choice. 19:14:00 Xach: makes sense to me, that was the area i had in mind as well... let me know how it turns out! 19:14:09 hmm, glancing at cl-darcs, I see that you need to use SVN to get it... that has insufficient circularity! 19:14:22 hah 19:14:22 drewc: Will do. Someone here mentioned using them all the time, maybe they'll pipe up and explain... 19:14:36 well, it beats needing darcs2 to download darcs2 19:14:48 pjb <---- i think that's the guy you're looking for Xach 19:15:13 Xach, CCL uses a logical pathname translation for its own source 19:15:20 Xach: reminds me of my old idea to make an "application harness", which was basically an extended cl-launch with stuff like setting up all resources through logical pathnames etc. 19:15:29 obscure corner of CL that is extremely useful? pjb _must_ be using it! :) 19:15:46 =) 19:16:32 drewc: CLC doesn't do that either, at install time. 19:17:05 drewc: it compiles upon first use, just standard asdf behavior. 19:17:33 so long as it doesn't require lisp to be running as root, that seems cool. 19:18:17 that said, whenever people complain about some lisp system they've apt-get install'd, our first question is "Did you install from rcs?" 19:18:21 at least historically. 19:18:41 so maybe the actual functionality of CLC is immaterial. 19:18:55 foom: it used to be that it recompiled ASDF at least, again my experience is almost 6 years ago now, so what do i know.... 19:19:02 ah, rcs... I recall learning it back when CVS already took the stage 19:19:04 yeah, I think it's mostly because if you're using a debian package, it's gotta be at least 2 weeks old, and thus completely unsupportable now 19:19:29 There was a new commit made 5 minutes ago, you aren't using that yet?!? 19:19:46 foom: it's true. it's a drag, but that's sort of the culture. 19:20:04 laziness can be combatted. 19:21:21 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:23:12 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:16 pjb doesn't count 19:23:42 And it'd be really neat if lisp implementations had semi-stable ABIs, so that it would be more feasible to distribute pre-compiled libraries, but that's a lot of work that nobody is likely to do. 19:23:59 foom: see ECL 19:24:14 foom: cross-version fasls might be doable, really. 19:24:36 that'd be pretty sweet. 19:24:49 pkhuong: I don't see how, it's way too easy to change some compiler transform or something and break everything without realizing. 19:25:08 foom: e.g.? 19:26:01 say, forward-compatible fasls within medium versions. 19:27:08 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ffasdeoksyuijdnl] has joined #lisp 19:27:22 cue semi-annual discussion of a tree-shaker. 19:27:42 this eventually leads to lisp machines..... 19:27:49 pkhuong: well, you can't remove or change the API of any internal functions which happen to be called from inlined or transformed-into locations 19:27:55 we're a fetishistic bunch. 19:28:30 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:35 you could imagine some build-time tools that checked for things like that, though 19:28:38 yes 19:28:59 If someone built a checker tool to ensure that only a certain set of blessed stable ABIs were called when expanding CL functions 19:29:02 foom: that doesn't seem too bad... I can also imagine a version-aware fasl loader. 19:29:08 which adds to the hardness, I suppose 19:29:16 and then another tool to ensure that those don't ever change 19:29:26 then it would be doable 19:29:34 sctb [n=sctb@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:40 pkhuong: the thing that seems hard to me is in realizing when you've made a breaking change or not 19:29:46 pkhuong: you can imagine it...and then run away screaming :) 19:30:05 with all this code that's now looking at fasls... how much more work is it to just compile from source? 19:30:05 Fade: instead of tree-shaker, it could start by introducing a tool that could separate "end-user runtime" from "developer bits", for certain packages etc. (stuff that usually is implementation specific etc.) 19:30:22 p_l: *nod* 19:30:32 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:16 hey, i got a failed aver with sbcl! whee 19:31:24 (directory "sys:src;runtime;l*") is what I typed. 19:32:01 those semicolons look a bit strange. 19:32:03 anyways, once you had all these tools, you'd have to still be able to make enough changes to SBCL without breaking the ABI so that it's stable for long enough for it all to have been worth it. 19:32:28 logical pathnames, baby! 19:32:29 if you do all this and all you get is that you know for sure you broke the ABI every other month, that doesn't seem worth it. 19:32:33 Fade: you might have heard me talking about a "BASTARD" dsl... one of the ideas I wanted to research with it was using the infrastructure to deploy a small, minimalized assembler for what is needed at runtime, while still providing full developer environment when loaded from scratch (the differences making it rather hard to just split it into two packages) 19:32:52 Fade: they don't look strange if you ever used ITS 19:33:05 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:33:35 I am chronologically incompatible with ITS :) 19:34:24 Fade: Me too, at least in theory. Didn't stop me from enjoying the question of "where the hell is 'make directory' command" ;-) 19:34:35 *Fade* chuckles 19:34:57 (ITS doesn't have directory creation/deletion, directory exists if it has files inside) 19:35:05 sounds like git! 19:35:22 Hmm, is there a way to find out if a logical pathname host has been set up yet? 19:35:24 woo, git recreated ITS! 19:35:31 *Xach* reads the chapter 19:35:48 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:53 Adlai: also, the filename is composed of 144 bits 19:35:54 so I'm off to asia in the morning chasing up a lead for bootstrapping a euro-ITA company, building mobile-broadband infrastructure in Lisp. wish me luck :-) 19:36:02 Now that I've started using git, I'm growing to rather like it. :) 19:36:17 good luck, lukego 19:36:21 lukego: WOW! :) 19:36:26 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 19:36:27 lukego: Good luck! 19:36:38 Lisp and mobile broadband: sounds fun. :) 19:36:39 good luck lukego! 19:36:39 lukego: Break a Leg! 19:36:44 break a lukego! 19:36:50 thanks everybody :) 19:37:08 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 19:38:27 SIXBIT was fun... 19:38:44 as was MACLISP-equivalent of FFI :D 19:39:21 emouse [n=rpm@chat.sysert.ru] has joined #lisp 19:41:20 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-83.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 19:41:36 Xach: (directory "sys:src;runtime;l*") gives me a failed aver too, fwiw :) 19:42:01 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:51 best of luck lukego . I look forward to the trips in your private A380! 19:47:00 -!- splittist [i=3ecb709f@gateway/web/freenode/x-ywbnfbvfblajvnqe] has quit ["homeward"] 19:48:00 chrisb [n=chrisb@pool-71-175-246-168.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:15 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:17 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-16-67.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:18 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:49:03 splittist: it will have the best 'net experience in the skies :) 19:49:05 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.12.196] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:55:03 davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:08 were buying jets now ? has the lisp world domination in 50 years plan finally come to fruition ? 19:56:25 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:56:32 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:57:18 *p_l* is waiting for Aircraft Carrier being chartered for Lisp conference 19:59:56 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:28 JayK [n=jakob@dslb-094-223-171-042.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:13 -!- JayK [n=jakob@dslb-094-223-171-042.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 20:04:06 howcome nobody told me about the 50 year world domination/buy jets plan? 20:04:11 *drewc* has been doin it wrong! 20:04:23 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.1"] 20:06:29 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-clsrpiyjlpsawbkb] has joined #lisp 20:06:45 ditto. 20:06:51 drewc: you bought a boat? 20:08:06 chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has joined #lisp 20:08:20 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:06 Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.12.196] has joined #lisp 20:12:10 I've read about all the equality properties in PCL, but I can't still figure out how to compare two objects by the value of its attributs... 20:12:24 do I have to implement an equal method for each class? 20:12:39 yes 20:12:46 stassats: oks... thanks 20:14:10 So it just crossed my mind that if I was asked what the profound enlightenment of Lisp was for me, I'd answer that it teaches you that the language, and its implementation ("compiler") is not a black-box but a programming tool that is supposed to assist you where possible. 20:14:13 stassats: that's part of it yea! :) 20:14:23 tcr: AOP! (: 20:15:00 chiiph: CL:EQUAL is not a method, of course, so you probably want to call it something like my-class-equal. 20:16:31 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:31 well, you wouldn't put the class name in it! 20:16:42 chiiph: If all you are doing is iterating slots and comparing them, you can use the mop to make a generic 'compare-slots' function, but in all my years of CLOS i've never needed this... 20:17:13 drewc: paul graham brought that up instantly to show how terrible, terrible! common lisp is 20:17:16 make-comparator-using-slots 20:17:30 Xach: my bad! 20:17:56 francogrex [n=user@91.182.57.29] has joined #lisp 20:18:01 drewc: it's so hard to tell what's metasyntax and what's literal, sometimes... 20:18:17 drewc: the pg thing is regarding iterating slots 20:18:44 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 20:18:51 lemonodor gave the desired awful code to do it instead of mentioning closer-mop 20:19:21 Xach: citation? 20:19:26 *drewc* loves a good laugh 20:19:30 hey [i=51219fe4@gateway/web/freenode/x-kztlzeohhyppsjdt] has joined #lisp 20:19:41 *Xach* digs it up 20:20:16 http://arclanguage.org/item?id=1641 20:20:34 i guess the big joke about a compare-slots function is that you still have to specify the equality function, for each slot, to ensure it's correct..... 20:20:34 I had the idea of a "minion: what would paul graham say?" and it would return some random sentence from his lisp essays 20:20:56 what is really needed is a COMPARABLE metaclass 20:20:59 perhaps with some heuristics based on current discussion 20:20:59 yea, wouldn't it be neat if there was a generic equality? 20:21:16 tcr: brilliant! 20:21:21 tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 20:21:24 Greetings lispers. 20:22:04 I'm experiencing a failure to find the correct documentation, so please point me in the correct direction. 20:22:12 foom: a single one? Sure, (gequal comparator x y) (: 20:22:33 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 20:22:45 tmh, docs for what? 20:22:48 I have a loop where I want to collect unique elements, analogous to using PUSHNEW. 20:23:07 Is there some combination of loop keywords that will accomplish that? 20:23:23 tmh: can't use remove-duplicates? 20:23:26 tmh: with table = (make-hash-table) and 20:23:28 I couldn't figure it out from the documentation, CLHS, PCL and friends. 20:23:33 unless 20:23:54 froydnj: That's exactly what I'm doing, but it seems... unaesthetic. 20:23:58 tmh: sure ... (loop for x ... :unless (find x in xs) :collect x into xs) i think... 20:24:05 sorry.. 20:24:12 find does not use that syntax at all. 20:24:26 drewc, that's an interesting :mix of :loop keywords :P 20:24:34 tmh: remove-duplicates inside the loop, or instead of the loop? 20:24:37 dacoda [n=user@clientssh2.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:01 froydnj: I enclose the loop form in DELETE-DUPLICATES 20:25:11 Adlai: heh... i always use :keys but for when i'm typing fast, looks like muscle memory got a hold of a few there :) 20:25:25 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8222.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:25:30 Seems wrong 20:25:42 Wrong as in looks bad but works. 20:25:56 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:06 Put the loop in a local function 20:26:29 Ok, pastebin time, was trying to avoid that. 20:26:46 tmh: i have used a hash table for similar tasks, but here i don't see anything wrong with LOOP and REMOVE-DUPLICATES... it's analog to PUSHNEW/NREVERSE really. 20:27:08 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:27:20 cue the aphorism on knowing the value of everything. 20:27:25 -!- dacoda [n=user@clientssh2.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:27:35 tmh pasted "Collect Unique" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93459 20:27:38 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.78.64] has joined #lisp 20:27:38 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 20:27:38 cost of... something something 20:28:22 tmh: are there a really enormous number of layers? 20:28:53 Fade: btw, regarding my "deployment" options, the idea was to make a simple API (basically, a list of symbols and/or specialized function) that could be used by a function that would remove all references to given set of objects before running GC, then dumping the image 20:29:15 Fade: The maximum would on the order of hundreds. In the cases I'm using this for now, there are only a few. 20:29:30 i don't see any real problem with what you have, then. 20:29:49 p_l: have you experimented with this? 20:29:57 tmh: replace the loop with (mapcar #'station (mapcon #'cross-sections (layers coupon)))? 20:30:04 mapcan, not mapcon 20:30:25 Fade: not yet in practice, but I started on it after reading the code for the trivial tree-shaker for SBCL 20:30:34 *nod* 20:30:44 tcr: Tomatoes -vs- Tomotoes or real benefit? 20:31:15 basically, a kind of "USE flags" for dumped images. Except that they don't do complete tree-shaking, just "I know I don't need this feature set and knowingly rip it out" 20:31:24 tmh: makes it some functional list processing code 20:31:28 what do you think about arc? 20:31:49 hey: "haha" 20:31:50 hey: what? 20:32:08 hey: it's crap, but it's lisp, so better than most other crap out there. 20:32:08 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-ayghwnnbpdoqunzy] has joined #lisp 20:32:13 hey: frankly speaking? I don't consider it interesting enough to switch from CL. I'd rather go with Chicken Scheme if I had to choose a Scheme variant 20:32:17 tcr: Is there a way to work in my uniqure requirement? 20:32:35 tcr: Using the mapcar/mapcan approach? 20:32:41 *unique* 20:32:44 hey, I believe there is a library for writing Arclike code in CL, if you wish to do so 20:32:44 *drewc* also thinks that arc and trolls go together, and hopes we're not feeding the wildlife 20:32:49 minion, tell hey about snarc 20:32:50 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``snarc''. 20:32:52 i think arc fails to embody the thousand year language that PG seemed to be talking about for years while he developed arc. 20:32:53 hmm 20:33:36 Sometimes, I get hung-up on some aesthetic issue, don't know why, must be Friday afternoon. 20:33:41 Adlai: the week arc came out i wrote an ARC-on-CL.. it was sadly quite trivial and not as much fun as i'd hoped. 20:33:43 Thanks for all the feedback. 20:34:11 drewc, isn't there a library for that, somewhere? 20:34:36 does arc not lean on the inbuilt call/cc in scheme? 20:34:38 I'd rather use macro characters for more interesting stuff like currying etc. 20:34:39 Adlai: i'm not sure.. there wasn't the week arc came out, and i have ignored most things arc related since. 20:34:47 I've just read about it very superficially, but introducing syntax to the language would perhaps break its uniformity? :/ 20:34:52 Fade: pg's implementation did 20:35:28 scheme's call/cc is the only feature I admire in scheme that we don't have in CL 20:35:43 Fade: i just implemented an interpreter for arc rather than compile to scheme. 20:36:16 i really don't like the way macros work in scheme. 20:36:17 scheme's call/cc is the only feature i don't understand 20:36:18 Fade: why? I mean, what would you used them for that isn't provided by CL, and would you trade the condition system for them? 20:36:32 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:43 drewc: well, the CL condition system rocks. it'd be sad to give it away. 20:37:11 Fade: what did you want call/cc for? 20:37:37 Fade: (noting that you are talking to me, of course.... i use continuations with CL everywhere) 20:37:50 I was thinking about implementing a system similar to the twisted python framework which relies heavily on regstered callbacks. 20:37:59 drewc, what do you use for continuations? 20:38:13 and it seemed like a good match. 20:38:28 Adlai: inversion of control for web applications 20:38:35 but as you say, the continuations available to us in CL are generally good enough. 20:38:37 Fade: you can do that without call/cc 20:38:54 well, of course. twisted in python does fine w/out them. :) 20:38:56 and there are significant advantages to not using call/cc for such tasks 20:38:59 drewc, that's what you do with them. I'm wondering which call/cc-in-cl you use :) 20:39:02 I just thought it would make everything a lot shorter. 20:39:39 Adlai: right now? I use my own, not based on CALL/CC, codewalking, or any of that shite. 20:40:05 minion, paste 77636 20:40:05 Fade: SHIFT/RESET, maybe. Full call/cc is a liability IMO 20:40:06 Paste number 77636: "call/cc (or shift/reset) in 100 lines" by drewc in #tech.coop. http://paste.lisp.org/display/77636 20:40:08 drewc, that? 20:40:46 Adlai: no, but something like that based on an explicit implementation of the continuation monad... 20:41:23 minion: paste 92830 20:41:24 Paste number 92830: "Continuation Monad + ContextL = Dynamic Web" by drewc in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/92830 20:41:31 Adlai: ^^ 20:41:52 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.2"] 20:41:54 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:36 Adlai: essentually, rather than transform code to CPS, which i hate, i just pipe the frames i want to capture through the continuation monad. 20:43:00 I then use catch/throw to avoid having to explicitly call the continuation all the time. 20:43:30 *retroj* raises an eyebrow 20:43:58 drewc: is this based on marco's stuff? I've asked you this before but I can't remember the answer. 20:44:13 Fade, doesn't look that way -- that involves CPS rewriting. 20:44:19 Fade: no, not even remotely. Macro's stuff is an interpreter 20:44:24 marco's 20:44:43 well, your gear works. 20:45:11 (though one could call the continuaition mondad an interpreter of sorts i suppose, but it's a different implementation strategy entirely) 20:45:18 Am I still here? 20:45:23 tmh: T 20:45:33 (describe 'tmh) 20:45:34 drewc: what's holding back packaging and releasing this? sounds useful 20:45:48 ERC has been acting wonkie since I configured smooth scrolling. 20:46:11 Emacs will lock up when I resize a split buffer and I have to C-g to break in. 20:46:31 (append '(2) '(15 21 67)); how to stick the 2 at the end of the list? 20:46:53 (append '(15 21 67) '(2)) 20:47:02 obviously 20:47:09 jeez 20:47:10 retroj: well, it's not entirely finished yet, and i've got hundreds of hours of work to do on the project that is using this code, so it's mostly a time issue. 20:47:20 -!- hey [i=51219fe4@gateway/web/freenode/x-kztlzeohhyppsjdt] has quit ["Page closed"] 20:47:26 but this operation is costly 20:47:56 not as costly as my ignorance if (not even CL) but simple logic in humans! 20:48:39 francogrex, ideally, you'd structure your code so that you either can just cons onto the front of the list, or you use (loop ... collecting foo), which (on some lisps) will generate more efficient code than (append '(15 21 67) '(2)) 20:48:40 (reverse (append '(2) (reverse '(15 21 67)))) 20:48:44 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-16-67.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:48:45 there's also a destructive counterpart, nconc 20:49:08 francogrex: generally, appending to a list shows you're doing something wrong design wise... though there are a lot of exceptions to that rule. 20:49:14 throw caution to the wind. 20:49:47 *Adlai* signals a control-error; there is no dynamically visible catch frame for 'caution 20:50:10 Fade: was that the dynamic-wind? 20:50:25 obviously 20:50:37 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:22 smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.236] has joined #lisp 20:51:50 *wind* even 20:52:02 drewc: why? 20:52:08 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:27 drewc: say I have new data I want to add to old data? what's more logical tha eppend? 20:52:41 francogrex: cons? 20:52:44 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:57 cons is less costly? 20:53:09 *drewc* slaps his forehead 20:53:30 *Fade* mutters something about premature optimisation and wanders back to his own code 20:53:47 what ever happened to pjb's boxes and arrows bot? 20:54:22 francogrex: if you are appending a single item to a list, you must first traverse the entire list, then CONS up a pair to insert into the last CDR. 20:54:44 not to mention copying the list 20:54:44 francogrex: the other way is just "CONS up a pair" 20:54:58 oh, and that too! :) 20:55:09 but there's nconc 20:55:10 ler it be cosn then 20:55:13 cons 20:55:21 I like "push" i use it often 20:55:32 though not here 20:55:32 push is cons + setf 20:55:34 there's also nreconc 20:55:44 and nconc 20:55:46 for when nconc isn't retro enough 20:56:27 francogrex: using the right data structure for the job is important. don't use lists for things where you should be using a queue. 20:56:41 *tmh* goes to hide his example. 20:56:51 My recent paste totally violates that. 20:57:04 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:12 ok 20:57:12 I'm throwing lists around like mad because I'm in "Get-it-Done" mode. 20:57:17 nah, using lists for 3d matrices is fun 20:57:29 tmh: I do lists also all the time 20:57:34 at first it's easy 20:57:41 especially when you represent them in row-major order, rather than multidimensional 20:57:54 then when i got a working rpogram, i strat optimizing to vectors 20:58:08 *tmh* groans 20:58:22 francogrex: you either have to slow down, learn to spell, or use flyspell mode or similar... 20:58:35 francogrex, the problem is that you'll need to run the program to verify that it works, and if you used lists for everything, it won't terminate. 20:58:47 I use lists when I don't have any idea how to organize the data. After using the code for a while, data structures tend to emerge. 20:58:58 drewc: but despite spelling errors you still understand it right? 20:59:00 francogrex: the odd typo is ok, but sentances full of nonsense shows a significant lack of respect to your readers, imo. 20:59:03 Adlai: halting problem? 20:59:05 francogrex is dyslexic 20:59:29 stassats, ahh, is that why claar disappeared? 20:59:32 I actually think i am dislexic! 20:59:35 ...says drewc as he makes a typo :) 20:59:57 froydnj: i qualified that first! :) 21:00:03 francogrex: I explicitly asked you if you were one time and you responded yes, implying diagnosed. 21:00:31 dejones [n=dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:37 Oh what's the max. # of threads on SBCL? 21:00:40 tmh: but i never realized it before! at school I was never dyslexic 21:00:49 and lisp is dissyntaxic? 21:01:03 drewc: ok, but 2k words without mistakes now, you've used up your quota! 21:01:14 tcr: as much as you can take 21:01:21 francogrex: I'm don't think dyslexia is something you can contract, you either are or you aren't. 21:01:24 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:26 tcr: no hard limit (except implicit ones wrt OS resources utilisation) 21:01:29 froydnj: fair enough... M-x flyspell-mode it is :) 21:01:50 pkhuong: I just tried to create 1000 and I got a "can't create thread" error 21:01:57 *tmh* uses flyspell-mode in ERC, and is working on enabling in most other things. 21:02:24 tmh: are you using flyspell-prog-mode? 21:02:34 tcr: 32 bit build? 21:02:36 tmh: i find it gets too slow when my ERC buffer is a few months old.. but this one is fresh enough, and i am the one bitching about spelling, so i'll suffer through it :) 21:02:49 stassats: Umm, no, but I'll look into it. 21:03:02 it's for comments in programs 21:03:06 pkhuong: yes 21:03:25 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:03:36 tcr: threads have fairly large stacks (multi MB) by default. You ran out of address space. 21:04:28 drewc: My ERC connection drops daily, not sure why, so the large buffer is not a problem. 21:04:50 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:05:00 stassats: I'm obviously interested. how do I activate it in erc this spell mode? 21:05:18 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:05:27 M-x flyspell-mode 21:05:39 francogrex: load `spelling' module 21:05:46 tmh: it says enabling flyspell mode gave an error! 21:06:00 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:01 *tmh* should load the spelling module. 21:06:03 you need a working ispell/aspell 21:06:44 ok like in enable modules: spelling? 21:07:11 ispell and aspell aren't parts of emacs 21:07:43 i'll look into that. But then it corects me as i'm tyoing in here right? 21:07:57 gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:39 and it looks like ispell.el can also use hunspell 21:08:51 but there is a "spelling module" in erc; it doesn't do anything though 21:09:27 pkhuong: What's the best way to get a timestamp of the form hh:mm:ss:msmsmsms in sbcl? 21:09:28 i canstill maek errors andit xon't catche them 21:09:35 you first need a working flyspell 21:09:40 ok 21:09:41 see that northsails main with that radial cut! 21:09:46 sorry.. wrong window 21:09:50 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-233-3-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 21:09:55 tcr: no idea. local-time? 21:09:57 and then it doesn't work retroactively on erc buffers, as i can see 21:10:00 drewc; hmm kinky! 21:10:41 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 21:11:03 francogrex: not at all... full battened with a giant roach.... nice rag for sure. 21:11:13 francogrex: how is it going with ECL for you? :) 21:14:38 p_l: quite ok; though I am not using the latest versions. i'm still in 8.12.0 from 2008 21:15:07 francogrex: you're using MinGW one? 21:15:42 yes still on MinGW. The beautiful thing is now i can make whole standalone libraries that can be used in excel, sas anything... 21:16:16 hmmm 21:16:30 you're using it? 21:17:49 p_l; It's a pity though, I wanted to use the new versions; I finally got them to build ok, but there are some problems with using cffi in them; i contacted juanjo but still no fix 21:18:33 francogrex: well, I'll look into it. Especially if I manage to get Windows SDK on wine 21:18:58 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:19:37 p_l: would be good it's not that urgent though as i'm quite happy wih the older version 21:20:20 p_l: whydon't people do like me: have a dual windows/linux instead of using simulations 21:20:52 Do you mean dual boot or using a VM? 21:21:12 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-35-216-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:44 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:21:48 tmh: dual boot, no virtual machines 21:21:57 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-81.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:22:04 francogrex: because we don't want to switch contexts 21:22:22 maintaining synchronized windows/linux environment would be utter PITA 21:23:08 to tell the truth; I hardly use my linux; it's there it's got all my newest sbcl and ecl...but I don't use it 21:23:43 I think the last time i used it was when i was trying to use that LinJ software 21:23:47 Ah, I use the VM approach, can't stomach rebooting to switch OS's, plus the VM approach integrates better, share folders, easy access to data in all OS's. 21:24:25 tmh: i use puppy linux; when i'm in linux, all windows folders are accessible 21:24:37 francogrex: if you're mainly windows user, you can use a VM or CoLinux 21:24:48 But the windows apps aren't 21:27:22 I'll try that. anyone ever used LinJ? 21:28:45 francogrex: I heard something about source being available 21:29:18 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:43 p_l: ah, that's cool; because I had to download an older cmucl version to be able to use with the compiled files 21:31:07 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:13 Is the primary value of LinJ the ability to cooperate at a source level with Java coders? If not, I would think ABCL would be a better solution for interfacing with Java. For that matter, if you really like lisp and java, dare I say it? 21:33:01 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-clsrpiyjlpsawbkb] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:33:01 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-ayghwnnbpdoqunzy] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:33:06 It begins with cl 21:33:18 has and oju in the middle 21:33:22 and an re at the end 21:33:37 which of the lisp books also teach emacs on the way? 21:33:44 tmh: its primary value is bullshitting the person receiving the code that it was written in Java 21:34:05 p_l, tmh: indeed 21:34:18 p_l: it's just because of that really 21:34:30 btw; I hate java, let it be known 21:35:05 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.12.196] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:35:12 Thought so. The Achilles heel of that is incorporating feedback from the Java people. Does LinJ reverse Java patches into lisp patches? 21:35:23 tmh: I assume not 21:35:32 doesn't matter for write-once code 21:35:39 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:36:37 Hmmm it seems like sbcl's compiler-let does not preserve toplevel ness. 21:36:42 cltl2 compiler-let 21:36:42 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node83.html 21:39:01 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051172031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:06 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:40:03 bah process-toplevel-form is not extensible :-) 21:41:45 minion: more coffee 21:41:46 coffee me harder 21:43:21 -!- davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:51 p_l do you hav ethe source code? 21:45:54 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 21:47:36 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ffasdeoksyuijdnl] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:50:05 -!- smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:54 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:57:32 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.78.64] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:54 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:58:49 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:34 francogrex: for linj? No, but I heard the author might dispense it, as it seems it's no longer commercially available product 22:04:46 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-19-159.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:04:55 ok 22:05:17 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.182.57.29] has quit [""switch to another PC""] 22:06:01 davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:01 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:06:37 Common Lisp is a beautiful language :-) 22:08:04 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 22:08:51 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:46 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:57 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["shutdown -h now"] 22:11:06 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:12:59 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 22:13:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-119-35.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:15:44 -!- dejones [n=dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:19 racebondition the best place to learn emacs if youre a beginner is the inbuilt tutorial 22:17:45 invest that half an hour :) 22:19:54 why do I have "The following functions were used but not defined: ..." for methods that are defined in files that I load? 22:20:12 is it because I'm using a plain (load "...") and not the better asdf approach? 22:20:48 Can you paste? 22:21:14 My out-of-the-blue guess would be that DEFGENERIC forms are missing. 22:21:53 tcr: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/165876/ 22:22:06 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:22:11 tcr: scene-intersect is one of the methods... give me a sec I'll paste scene.lisp 22:22:57 tcr: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/165877/ 22:23:55 chiiph: You should use ASDF, why don't you use it? 22:24:26 chiiph: You have to use (WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT () (load "file1") (load "file2")) -- asdf does that for you 22:24:39 tcr: I can't still understand it :P 22:24:56 tcr: ok, so... it's because I'm not using the asdf approach... 22:25:00 tcr: I'll work with that... 22:25:04 minion: xach-asdf 22:25:04 xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 22:25:30 chiiph: I largely do not understand asdf that well either. I'm now a bit better at understanding it, but I used to copy&paste 22:26:44 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:03 tcr: I've seen that doc... but I can make the analogy in my head to a plain "include everything in file1 here" 22:27:14 chiiph: sounds like you were loading a file which has functions or whatever that in turn call a function that has yet to exist. 22:27:22 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:27:30 tcr: I'll have to give it a little more time for it to cook in my head :D 22:27:33 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:56 chiiph: ie, you can try to do something like (defun my-func (x) (my-not-so-existing-function x)) and see if you get the same warning. 22:28:35 hypno: I don't understand what you are saying... yes, scene.lisp has generics and methods... I've got the warning, but if I (load "scene.lisp") and use the methods, everything works just fine... 22:28:36 chiiph: Do you know `make'? ASDF's purpose is similar. 22:29:01 tcr: yes, I'm comming from C/C++ like languages... 22:29:44 chiiph: also, it is not particulary idiomatic in Common Lisp to use studly caps and similiar nonsense from java or c. 22:29:48 snearch [n=olaf@g229052060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:58 chiiph: definitely learn ASDF, as long as you don't touch any "advanced" stuff but simply specify dependencies between files, it will work great for you 22:30:49 hypno: this code is not intended for distribution... so, for now I'll stick with what idiomatic for me... but thanks for the suggestion... 22:31:02 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-16-67.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:08 ok... asdf it is :) ... 22:31:18 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:31:23 any other doc besides Xach's that any of you recommend? 22:31:45 chiiph: the CL-specific style is nice because various tools already support it, like SLIME 22:31:47 Anyone familiar with any attempts at integrating Lisp as a Linux kernel module? 22:32:09 so, for example, WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT can be expanded from (w-c-u ...) 22:32:25 fractalis: Some brave chap hacked scheme into the linux kernel 22:32:34 p_l: what is it exactly that I'm not doing wrong in my code (besides all the asdf stuff)? 22:33:54 fractalis: i think it was on the kernel mailing list some years back, but it i do not think it was very approciated, heh. netbsd has recently have ideas about adding Lua to the kernel.. perhaps that could be inspirational. 22:34:00 chiiph: except for naming scheme & ASDF, you could put your code into package 22:34:19 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:34:20 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:41 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-67-180-9-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:45 p_l: what about naming scheme? can you give me a concrete example? 22:34:57 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:35:36 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:43 chiiph: Does the Lisp code you have seen so far name entities as you do? 22:36:05 chiiph: wait a while, I'm preparing my response, ok 22:37:51 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229100037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:37:51 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:51 <_3b> chiiph: RayTracer -> ray-tracer, sampleEmitters -> sample-emitters, rayt -> ray-tracer, surfp -> surface-point 22:37:51 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:39:31 hypno: Thanks, I'll check it out. I vaguely remember reading on mailing lists the idea being tossed around maybe a year or so ago, but as you said, it wasn't received too highly. I mentioned in the channel the other day looking around as well as projects similar to Movitz, been toying around with the idea of doing something either with the Linux Kernel or a bare OS as a bit of a hobby/side-project. 22:39:31 -!- pjb [n=t@101.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:01 tcr: I haven't seen that much code... it'll really help me if you tell me something like: "this method in the lisp way would be named like this"... 22:40:01 Use hyphens to separate words, not camelCase 22:40:02 Predicates end in foop or foo-bar-p 22:40:02 oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:02 _3b: I see... thanks for clarifying :) 22:40:03 didn't you, like 5 minutes ago, declare that you rather stick with what is idiomatic to you and ignore the decades of prior Common Lisp experience before you? 22:40:03 pjb` [n=t@101.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:03 hypno: yes, but I want to understand what you are saying... 22:40:07 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:40:59 nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:00 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:01 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nnncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Getting off stoned server - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 22:41:01 hypno: since everyone complain about my naming... I wanted to know what all the fuzz was about :P 22:41:01 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-17.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:05 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:13 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 22:41:20 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:26 You already do seem to spell out words, and not use abbreviations 22:41:26 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:41:26 contructors are usually named make-foo 22:41:26 slot-accessors are often named either class-slot, or slot-of 22:41:32 skeptomai|away [n=nnnncb@71.227.156.96] has joined #lisp 22:41:37 chiiph: well, the standard is a very good source for general idioms. there is also a document named "Good Lisp Style" by Kent Pitman and Peter Norvig, which i would recommend. 22:41:40 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 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joined #lisp 22:41:53 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:54 hypno: Good call. 22:42:04 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:13 what just happened? 22:42:38 hypno: ok... like I said... where I come from, camelCase is what's recommended... so I kind of have it burned on my head... 22:42:40 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:42 Is it possible to turn off message "This is experimental prerelease support for the Windows platform: use at your own risk. "Your Kitten of Death awaits!"" when I compile file under windows? 22:42:44 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 22:42:46 yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 22:42:46 dym [n=dym@217.20.175.226] has joined #lisp 22:42:47 guaq [i=gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:47 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 22:42:48 hypno: I'll take a look at that doc.... thanks 22:42:50 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 22:42:50 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 22:42:51 ramus [n=ramus@99.23.128.54] has joined #lisp 22:42:54 a-s [n=user@93.112.122.84] has joined #lisp 22:42:55 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:56 nullman [n=nullman@75.73.150.26] has joined #lisp 22:43:12 tychoish [n=tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:20 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:55 chiiph: You don't need explicit RETURN-FROMs in most cases 22:47:00 bunz [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:00 chiiph: the last produced values in a function body (within an execution path) are returned from a function 22:47:00 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 22:47:00 does anyone have a recommendation for image libraries? 22:47:01 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:47:01 it seems cl-magick and cffi-cairo are the two biggest ones... 22:47:01 vecto? 22:47:01 mrSpec, it's compiled into SBCL's runtime; you'll have to recompile it. 22:47:01 (after deleting the code for printing the message) 22:47:01 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:25 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75514b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:47:29 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-19-159.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:29 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:29 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-83.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:29 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:29 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.20.200] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:29 -!- cobol000 [n=r4y@p5496C71D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.221] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- hohum [i=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- herbieB_ [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- cupe [n=cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- weirdo [i=w@rodney.ltd.pl] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- housel [n=nnuser@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-jnrafnblykvqbtmy] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.254.29] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:47:30 chiiph: Make the then, and else branch of an IF be intended at the same column as the condition 22:47:30 chiiph: In general, read some introductionary book like Practical Common Lisp, and try to mimick its style 22:48:04 -!- manituuuu [n=plokmijn@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 22:48:29 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 22:48:38 chiiph: well, take it from another newbie, you will save yourself /a lot/ of time by not beeing clever and start /inventing/ stuff on your own. read Practical Common Lisp, read the CLOS book by Keene, read the AMOP the CLTL2 and the spec of course, and try your hardest to ignore and Java/C++/whatever impulses you might have. Common Lisp is a very different animal. 22:48:38 tcr: I know... but sometimes, untill I get more into lisp, I like to see those return-from, it's clearer for me... :) 22:48:42 cobol000 [n=r4y@p5496C71D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:55 stassats, that looks pretty slick, but i need raster ability 22:48:56 "you can write fortran in any language" 22:48:56 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:57 (I seem to be on a funky server, can you read my messages?) 22:49:00 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:49:00 weirdo_ [i=w@rodney.ltd.pl] has joined #lisp 22:49:03 hypno: I'm not trying to be clever or nothing... sorry if I made that impression... I'm just learning 22:49:03 tcr: hmmm ok, vim's indenting like that... 22:52:13 <_3b`> chiiph: is that code from minilight? 22:52:26 -!- sepult`` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-17.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:28 p_l pasted "for chiiph" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93469 22:52:29 herbieB [n=herbie@74.208.106.158] has joined #lisp 22:52:40 Adlai: Ihave to recompile SBCL? 22:53:27 tcr: at least I can seem them :) 22:53:27 i can, i had a huge lag too 22:53:29 fractalis: yeah, well, go for it, i guess. i've been there, done that, and it's extremly educational, yet perhaps not all that rewarding in the sense that the result is likely to be very useful. :) 22:53:30 chiiph: So learn it properly right from the beginning. 22:53:30 oconnore_: what kind of raster stuff? 22:53:31 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-42-13.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:53:31 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:32 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:32 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 22:53:33 tcr: yes, that's what I'm trying to do... but it's like walking in some way, and then suddenly have to change it entirely... it's not that easy... and I'm not being clever or inventing anything.... 22:53:33 chiiph: It's a bit overwhelming at the beginning, so slow down a bit. 22:53:35 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:39 hohum [i=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:40 -!- xristos is now known as Guest44084 22:53:40 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:53:40 there's plenty of time 22:53:41 sepult``` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:53:41 tcr: I'll get it right at the end... I can't seem to learn anything just for fun, I have to have some kind of project that forces me to it... that's why I've started with this GI renderer 22:53:41 cupe [n=cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has joined #lisp 22:53:41 Common Lisp is very very slowly moving. If you don't look sharply you'd think it's dead. 22:53:41 tfb_ [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:48 But it just smells funny. 22:54:17 tcr: anyway... thanks... I'll be bothering you all a lot :P 22:54:20 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-70-230.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:54:37 chiiph: it's ok. it's common for newbies to want to stick with old secure routes of thought before you explore the rest of the forrest, so to speak, but i would still recommend you to listen to the people here and try to conform to community standards. anything else will just make people less inclined to help you. besides, the whole point of learning CL, /is/ CL, so why care /at all/ about other languages ways? it's not like it's anymore fun to program C 22:54:37 _3b`: good eye :) 22:55:10 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-53-82-65-38-59.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:11 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 22:55:42 housel [n=nnnuser@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 22:55:51 mrSpec, as I said, that message is compiled into the SBCL kernel. If you want to get rid of it, you have to recompile the kernel. Not the entire SBCL. 22:56:29 hypno: yes, you are right... 22:56:29 chiiph: Nobody stops you from that. Still you should try to be thorough. Otherwise you end up with pseudo-knowledge. 22:56:42 tcr: great man!! thanks for this example :) 22:56:53 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229100037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:56:59 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:57:16 what implications has OPEN with :element-type 'unsigned-byte? could byte be something other than 8-bits somewhere? 22:57:20 I guess I should take a look at what's vim doing with the indentation, and see if I can fix it... 22:57:31 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 22:57:54 Adlai: ok, thanks 22:58:03 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229100037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:58:18 <_3b`> stassats: that doesn't sound like a 'finite recognizable subtype' 22:58:43 <_3b`> stassats: nevrmind, i can't read 23:00:22 chiiph: there's an easy way to fix that : use emacs. 23:00:22 chiiph: Also try Emacs+Slime. Invest a week. You'll be immensely more productive after that week. 23:00:23 p_l [i=plasek@89.248.166.201] has joined #lisp 23:00:31 or I guess I could try emacs+slime like a good lisper'll do... right? 23:00:57 <_3b`> stassats: does it say somewhere that it means 8 bits? 23:01:12 stassats: i don't think unsigned-byte makes any statement about how many bits are in that byte when you don't qualify it. 23:01:27 it would be a better start at least. 23:01:55 "The atomic type specifier unsigned-byte denotes the same type as is denoted by the type specifier (integer 0 *)" 23:02:09 -!- sepult``` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-17.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:20 chiiph: http://home.in.tum.de/~lehmanna/lisp-tutorial.html 23:02:44 which leaves me to think that unsigned-byte can have infinite bits 23:02:45 kk :) I'll get rid of vim :) 23:02:45 can't find 23:02:45 i'm using it alright on sbcl and ccl, because i'm lazy to type '(unsigned-byte 8) 23:02:45 chiiph: Awww 23:02:45 chiiph: Vim will always love you. 23:02:45 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:15 chiiph, vim has problems with lisp strings. emacs handles them much better 23:03:15 drewc: open specifically says "or one of the symbols signed-byte, unsigned-byte, or :default." 23:07:34 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:07:34 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:07:47 <_3b`> drewc: but unsigned-byte is specifically allowed for :element-type, while (integer *) wouldn't be, so presumably it has some other meaning there 23:07:47 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has left #lisp 23:09:05 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:09:11 clhs open 23:09:13 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:15 minion: where did the bots go? 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It also shows Slime, and ASDF in practise. 23:15:20 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:40 chiiph: and if you liked it, make sure to send feedback to the author 23:15:41 Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.203.234] has joined #lisp 23:15:41 hicx174_ [n=hicx174@211.44.210.50] has joined #lisp 23:15:43 dfox_ [n=dfox@94.113.17.246] has joined #lisp 23:15:43 dmm_ [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:43 ceineke_ [n=chris@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 23:15:43 djinni`` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:43 <_3b`> minion is on the other side of the split i think 23:15:44 for example, in Python, I can get a list of methods of an object by doing either dir(obj) or obj.+tab... how to do the same in, for exampl, clisp? 23:15:44 stassats: yeah, it mentions them specifically because unsigned-byte and signed-byte are not "finite recognizable subtype[s] of integer".. non? 23:15:44 RaceCondition: that depends what you mean by 'list of 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abugosh [n=Adium@216.164.114.53] has joined #lisp 23:17:23 RaceCondition: by using the inbuilt tools lisp offers.. APROPOS comes to mind. The SLIME inspector is quite useful as well, INSPECT and DESCRIBE only slightly less so. 23:17:24 drewc: OK, I will try them 23:17:25 hoeq__ [n=hoeq@94.254.66.64] has joined #lisp 23:17:25 drewc: so how do I use DESCRIBE? (describe format) does not work 23:17:25 RaceCondition: you probably want to learn about CLOS before you go looking for methods that apply to an object... we have EQL specializers, but i don't think you mean what you think you mean. 23:18:35 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:35 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:18:35 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152206.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:18:35 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:18:35 -!- bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:18:35 -!- mtd [n=martin@82.68.80.108] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:18:36 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:37 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-67-180-9-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:37 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:18:37 rrice 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[n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:43 spn [n=spn@adsl-68-122-28-85.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:43 Ri-|away [n=ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:43 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 23:19:45 -!- djinni`` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 23:19:48 crypto [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 23:19:48 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 23:19:49 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-170-196.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:49 PissedNu1lock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 23:19:49 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:27 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@ip216-239-70-96.vif.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:03 I'm just trying to find an easy way to learn Lisp 23:21:05 _3b`: i'm assuming it can be used to open a stream where stream-element-type is 'unsigned-byte 23:21:42 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:22:56 -!- Adamant_ is now known as Adamant 23:22:58 bdowning [n=bdowning@2001:470:1f11:72a:230:65ff:fe8c:423a] has joined #lisp 23:23:01 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.203.234] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:23:01 RaceCondition: the easy way is to get a book (PCL) and start coding. 23:23:05 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152206.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:23:05 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-83.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 23:23:05 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 23:23:05 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:05 cupe [n=cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has joined #lisp 23:23:05 herbieB [n=herbie@74.208.106.158] has joined #lisp 23:23:05 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:05 skeptomai|away [n=nnnncb@71.227.156.96] has joined #lisp 23:23:05 pjb` [n=t@101.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:05 oconnore_ 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23:24:25 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:25 -!- kingdon_ [i=yebyen@irie-arch.rit.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:25 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:25 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-58-174.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:25 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:24:25 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:25 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Dead socket] 23:24:25 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Dead socket] 23:24:25 legumbre_ [n=leo@190.135.58.174] has joined #lisp 23:24:25 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 23:24:25 RaceCondition: are you a relatively experienced programmer in other languages? 23:24:26 _3b`: which is circular, i know... but what i mean is that i should not need to know the size of an unsigned byte to open a binary stream... right? 23:24:26 drewc: yes 23:24:26 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g229052060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:24:27 RaceCondition: stumbling around in a lisp repl is a good way to explore, but likely a terrible way to learn... your teacher is ignorant of the subject matter! 23:24:27 faux` [n=user@82.182.78.98] has joined #lisp 23:24:27 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@216.239.70.96] has joined #lisp 23:24:27 RaceCondition: have you read Practical Common Lisp? 23:24:28 lacedaemon [n=algidus@93-41-198-254.ip83.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 23:24:28 ajklfjadsf [i=ddd@119.198.74.70] has joined #lisp 23:24:29 danderso1 [n=dave@91.121.172.158] has joined #lisp 23:24:29 fractali` [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:30 drwho [n=d@98.225.208.183] has joined #lisp 23:24:32 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 23:24:32 getha [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 23:24:32 drewc: I'm on it now actually 23:24:32 -!- ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@216.239.70.96] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:24:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 23:24:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:33 hohum [i=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:33 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:24:35 cobol000 [n=r4y@p5496C71D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:37 chiiph: got my pastie? 23:24:37 RaceCondition: well, read that, with your REPL open, read it again, and then again... when you have a specific question that is not trivially answered by reading the appropriate text or hyperspec page, #lisp is here to help. 23:24:37 had a connection error here 23:24:38 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 23:24:49 s0ber [n=s0ber@118.160.170.196] has joined #lisp 23:24:50 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483CBEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:53 tarbo [n=me@pool-173-75-5-88.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:54 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f66247f-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:24:54 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:24:55 jsoft_ [n=user@ip-118-90-5-246.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:24:55 -!- whoppix_ is now known as whoppix 23:24:56 tcr: oh! 23:24:56 well that's neat 23:24:58 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (sagan.freenode.net (jsoft_[n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] Ghosted douglas.freenode.net))] 23:25:09 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 23:25:10 foom2 [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:14 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 23:25:14 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 23:25:24 -!- drwho [n=d@98.225.208.183] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:25:27 drwho [n=d@98.225.208.183] has joined #lisp 23:25:38 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 23:26:11 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:26:24 derrida [n=derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 23:28:54 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:07 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-170-196.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:29:16 emouse [n=rpm@chat.sysert.ru] has joined #lisp 23:29:51 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:29:52 drewc: OK, I will remember that 23:29:52 I'm just being impatient a bit... 23:29:52 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 23:29:52 btw, clisp is OK for learning? or maybe sbcl? abcl? gcl? 23:29:52 mrSpec [n=Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 23:29:54 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 23:29:59 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:16 RaceCondition: on Linux, go with SBCL. On OSX/Win32|64 go with CCL 23:30:51 <_3b`> drewc: what does that mean though? arbitrary bignums, or some unspecified finite subset? 23:31:20 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnc@71.227.156.96] has joined #lisp 23:31:20 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:20 rares [n=rares@174-26-125-138.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:21 don't go with GCL unless you know what the differences mean, clisp if you don't have anything better or you understand what you are doing, abcl... I dunno, I'd leave it for more experienced person 23:31:21 definitely don't go with GCL if you want to learn CL 23:31:21 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:31:22 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:23 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 23:31:23 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-125-138.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:31:25 drwhat [n=d@98.225.208.183] has joined #lisp 23:31:25 You'd have better chances with ECL 23:31:26 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:27 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:19 brb 23:32:31 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:32:31 If you are just trying to work through the early examples in a CL book, use whatever CL you happen to have installed. 23:32:31 The nice thing about having a standard is that, if you're coding standard ANSI CL, the implementation is a detail. 23:32:31 that said, you're eventually going to want to do real work, so want SBCL or CCL + Slime 23:32:32 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [] 23:32:49 oh 23:32:49 embeddable common lisp? 23:32:58 why is it good for learning, if I may ask? 23:32:58 PCL recommends Lisp in a box... how about that? it seems to be available only for Linux and windows... nothing for macs? 23:33:02 <_3b> is this server still here? 23:34:28 which one? 23:35:00 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:35:02 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:03 schme [n=marcus@83.249.82.26] has joined #lisp 23:35:03 RaceCondition: lisp in an a box is emacs + a lisp implementation... it's also old and unsupported AFAIK. 23:35:03 -!- fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:03 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:35:03 RaceCondition: i don't recall anybody mentioning that ECL was specifically good for learning.... as i've mentioned, with where you seem to be at it doesn't matter. 23:35:04 OK 23:35:27 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:17 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:36:18 behind you! 23:36:24 _3b: you are with me anyway 23:36:24 _3b: i don't know if we're with the rest of the network though :) 23:36:25 -!- fractali` [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:26 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:48 fractali` [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:49 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 23:37:00 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.67.160] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:07 minion: i asked you that 20 minutes ago! 23:37:22 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:38 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 23:37:41 drewc: maybe minion is on Mars 23:38:20 RaceCondition: I recommend not abcl or gcl for learning. 23:38:40 _3b: i think it means just that yeah, that READ-BYTE can return an arbirary, though finite, integer 23:38:54 -!- tsuru is now known as Guest95507 23:38:54 konr [n=user@189.98.67.160] has joined #lisp 23:39:05 does PCL also cover using slime and emac sto at least a basic extent? 23:39:05 Trystam [n=Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:45 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@ip216-239-70-96.vif.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:46 rsynnott_ [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 23:39:57 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:39:58 -!- Ri-|away [n=ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:39:58 -!- PissedNu1lock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:39:58 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:39:58 RaceCondition: emacs has a build-in tutorial. As for slime, you're going to want to read the manual. 23:39:59 it does 23:40:00 OK 23:40:00 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit ["Changing server"] 23:40:09 Ri-|away [n=ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:16 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 23:40:19 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 23:40:19 TR2N [i=email@89-180-191-29.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 23:40:29 or watch slime.mov, minion knows where it is 23:41:04 _3b: i'd also assume that to mean that WRITE-BYTE can write an arbitrary INTEGER to an 'unsigned-byte stream 23:41:25 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 23:41:45 <_3b`> ouch, 8 minutes lag... 23:41:56 Someone made a Mac bundle like Lisp in a Box 23:41:56 I think it was called ReadyLisp or something like that. 23:41:56 *Xach* is lagged, sorry 23:41:56 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216.164.114.53] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:41:59 the CLHS basically says that all numbers are bytes 23:42:27 (sorry... all integers are bytes .. sloppy me) 23:42:55 -!- Guest95507 [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:43:06 <_3b`> drewc: minion answered 6 minutes ago on the others erver :p 23:43:37 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:10 _3b`: :D... that's good.. i was just about to go kick-start it thinking it was gone :) 23:44:22 -!- faux` [n=user@82.182.78.98] has left #lisp 23:45:20 lisp-book.org has a sample chapter that covers debugging /w slime a bit, which is actually a decent overview. 23:45:20 Guest95507 [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:25 -!- crypto [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:39 Xach: johnw i think made that 23:46:34 or maybe the guy at telent.net 23:48:03 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:48:37 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- spn [n=spn@adsl-68-122-28-85.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- rrice [n=rrice@76.244.145.54] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:48:37 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-67-180-9-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:49:16 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 23:49:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:49:52 drewc: things get iffy with CLOS 23:49:53 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-19-159.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:50:22 (regarding implementations) 23:50:36 p_l: sorry... i must missing some context there.. what are we talking about? 23:50:36 not sure about GCL, but at least when I was starting for the first time, trying to follow contents of, let's say, PCL, would be perilous road 23:50:59 00:32 < drewc> If you are just trying to work through the early examples in a CL book, use whatever CL you happen to have installed. 23:50:59 chrisb: johnw did make it, yes. 23:51:14 some time before he gave up on lisp 23:51:22 oh yes... i should always qualify that with "GCL has always sucked though" 23:53:12 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 23:53:56 funny that GCL, on the first look, seems (seemed?) to have more people working on it, yet is less feature complete than ECL, while both come from the same codebase 23:54:03 p_l: by the same codebase, you mean kcl? 23:54:03 yeah 23:54:03 are there any people working on gcl? 23:54:05 i mean, that's like saying netbsd and SunOS come from the same codebase.... 23:54:05 of course, there was a long road from KCL to current ECL ;-) 23:54:05 sure, maybe, sorta.... but! 23:54:06 -!- chrisb [n=chrisb@pool-71-175-246-168.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:16 drewc: SunOS 4.x, sure, close enough to work without too many difficulties, iirc. 5.x? shared less than 10 files ;-) 23:54:21 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:26 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:54:31 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 23:54:36 from my recent readings of the c.l.l archives (thanks to Xach for the entry points!), gcl has always been a horrible undermaintained mess of an implementation 23:58:15 Jabberwockey [n=jens@84.46.71.9] has joined #lisp 23:58:18 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@84.46.71.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:23 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 spn [n=spn@adsl-68-122-28-85.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-67-180-9-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 rrice [n=rrice@76.244.145.54] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 Holcxjo [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:26 from my pov, GCL's level of feature-completeness is "whatever was needed to run Maxima without big changes" ;-) 23:58:26 p_l: SunOS 5 was an abomination! 23:58:35 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.29] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:58:36 drewc: 5.x itself isn't that bad... but 5.11 OpenSolaris? Ewwwww 23:58:36 i liked SunOS... i didn't like slowaris.... you can put lipstick on a pig.... 23:58:36 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 23:58:37 I lost few days writing a script that according to everything should work, but didn't, because *Open* Solaris got a mixed Sun/GNU userland 23:58:37 *drewc* still has a sparcstation somewhere.... 23:58:37 *p_l* wants to grab Tru64 one of these days 23:58:38 of course, SunOS 5 hasn't been slower than 4 for like 10 years, but never let that spoil the mythology 23:58:38 king of like "Lisp is slow" 23:58:38 s/king/kind/ 23:59:01 i have not tried opensolaris actually, but i can imagine it being a worst of both worlds. 23:59:01 i mean, what business is sun even in anymore? 23:59:01 well, databases i guess. :( 23:59:05 anton [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 23:59:10 *tfb* has no real time for opensolaris 23:59:18 i have a pair of supersparc20's that are still in use as nameservers. 23:59:33 that hardware was solid. 23:59:34 it's built like a tank. 23:59:44 Guest955` [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:53 I have tru64 media 23:59:57 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has joined #lisp