00:00:45 I don't suppose there's an even-thinner binding to bsd-sockets than sb-bsd-sockets? (like, using file descriptor ints instead of socket objects) 00:00:51 Ralith: you can probably contact them from the addresses in the contact page of the Izware site, but i am sure that the buying process will be something like buying a symbolics lisp machine :) 00:01:11 kenanb: so... the code is, in fact, closed? 00:02:25 Ralith: hmm, i'm sorry, i misunderstood. yes, the code is probably closed, i didn't have the chance to check it though 00:02:46 well, if they're dead 00:02:51 I wonder if they could be talked into opening it up 00:03:11 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:13 pull a Blender on it. 00:03:19 hehe 00:03:33 just rewrite it :) 00:03:37 ...? 00:03:45 you go do that. 00:05:16 not foolhardy enough for this venture :) 00:05:32 Ralith: i think they won't really accept this because even the free toyish subdivision modeler they provide, called nendo, is not opensource 00:06:48 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 00:07:32 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:34 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-32-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:07:44 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 00:08:21 kenanb: the business is dead, right? 00:08:32 then the only people who care will be the owners of the IP 00:08:41 Ralith: yep 00:08:45 and history has shown that that sort of person can be made cooperative. 00:09:02 though, really, I have a hard time beliving they'd think it valuable IP if it's this long dead 00:09:14 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:09:46 tell that to whoever owns Genera 00:10:26 (another rotting corpse people often suggest dragging out of the ground in the name of open source) 00:11:02 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Killed by tomaw (restart)] 00:12:05 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:12:41 hefner: do you mean making it something like opengenera, which is already done (but with a very late decision), or do you mean making it free 00:12:54 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:14:18 also, it is funny that the "symbolics.com" domain is sold at last, being first registered domain was a heavy burden i guess :) 00:14:50 in a lambda-list "&optional sockaddr &rest address &aux (filename (first address))" -- why not just "&optional filename" or "&optional filename &rest ignore", can anyone guess? 00:16:00 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:30 hefner: i wonder, would it be too hard to create an opengl pane in a mcclim window frame? 00:16:52 (oh, it's needed to match a defgeneric) 00:17:40 hefner: i don't even now where i can start to achieve that kind of a thing :) 00:18:00 I guess answering "too hard for who?" isn't productive 00:18:56 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:14 I'd often rather use raw opengl than mcclim at this point, but I'm a masochist 00:19:49 I have an opengl pane for mcclim which probably doesn't work, and uses clx's glx implementation, which isn't complete 00:20:14 to go through libGL.so instead is non-trivial 00:20:46 hefner: is the pane code included in mcclim repo? 00:21:43 kenanb: no, looks like it's rotting on my hard disk somewhere 00:21:45 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:21:45 funny i was just thinking of opengl in mclim 00:21:52 mcclim* 00:21:57 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 00:22:14 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:22:20 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:22:34 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [] 00:22:35 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:22:39 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 00:22:42 someone was working on an opengl based GUI lib though, which would serve my needs ok 00:23:10 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-51-199.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:28 using someone else's library is like admitting defeat :) 00:23:39 Guthur, Woolly by Pat Klein maybe? 00:23:53 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 00:23:54 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:06 not sure adlai, it ones one of the regulars on lispgames I was thinking of 00:24:13 ones/was 00:24:24 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:24:55 i think mcclim is a great tool and it would be nice to combine it with opengl, that's why i'm thinking on that, i am fascinated by the integration of clim and cl. 00:25:32 hefner, I'd rather look at it as appropriate effort assignment 00:25:47 i need to assign my effort to something else, hehe 00:25:57 but also need a GUI 00:27:34 I'm fascinated by refining the art of reinventing the wheel for sport. I'm pretty sure that if I hand roll UIs another dozen times, I'll start to get really good at it. 00:27:50 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:28:06 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.202.90] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:29:05 i bought a tiny 2ndhand laptop recently, which had a broken down hdd, i installed tinycore linux (a 10mb desktop linux) + sbcl + mcclim and i setup a sh to start the mcclim listener at startup automatically, and tadaa, i have a very fake lisp machine :D 00:29:47 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:30:00 the system works on a 250mb usb flash disk :D 00:30:05 nice. 00:30:43 mooglenorph [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:44 lately I've had a lukgo-esque (or maybe nyef-esque) desire to kill X11 and try to drive my graphics card directly from SBCL, but that way lies insanity. 00:31:57 delicious insanity! 00:32:13 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-52-82-65-122-116.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:18 hefner: seen directfb? 00:32:41 *hefner* googles 00:33:32 *Xach* knew some of the directfb/gimp hacker crossover people 00:33:40 that's cute, but it feels like cheating. 00:34:20 I read about "kernel bypass" optimization wrt networking applications. cool to see a name for a "why not?" idea :) the idea is to write both the network stack and ethernet driver in userspace, so that you can do networking with no copying or context switching - because you don't touch the kernel :) 00:34:29 yeah directfb is cheating 00:35:23 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:33 hefner: sadly I think there is "surprisingly" little intellectual merit in writing device drivers. at least, it seems to be al about the process and debugging and discovery, and not such a lot of opportunity to write nice code 00:35:37 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-156-106.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:04 hefner: porting a Lisp onto openfirmware could be a nice idea though :) 00:36:12 Hello. This is offtopic, but: I'm trying to figure out a sane way to implement the resolution of propositional clauses, and I can't seem to find an algorithm that isn't O(n^2), because I need to match all complement literals from both clauses. 00:36:18 but probably not such a lot of fun = 00:36:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_(logic) (is what I'm talking about) 00:37:18 I'm trying to figure out if there's a smarter way to store clauses than as lists, so that finding all complements isn't so unfortunate. 00:37:31 hefner: and in random fwiw I eventually decided that Forth is the level of abstraction that hardware deserves to be spoken to at 00:41:49 jp_larocque [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 00:41:57 lukego: I can imagine some rewarding aspects to programming a graphics accelerator, but maybe not before enough pain and voodoo that you're already sick of it 00:42:33 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 00:43:06 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:43:42 *hefner* should not mix first and second person randomly 00:45:37 hefner: yeah I'm sure there are exceptional bits of hardware that are actually nice to program 00:45:54 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-88-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:47:29 hefner: and I'm probably not accounting for an 90/10 rule i.e. 90% of time is spent on the crappiest 10% of hardware so it feels like that's all there is :) 00:47:51 (good night) 00:48:22 hefner: i setup the mcclim listener to open automatically (in the same thread) from the sbcl init file when i start sbcl, i want to set the *debug-io* to the mcclim listener stream after it is opened from the init file, but when i normally setf *debug-io* it doesn't do what i need since the setf expression waits to be evaluated until i close the listener, is there a way to do that? 00:48:23 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:23 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-82.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:52:38 kenanb: you can probably do that between make-application-frame and run-frame-top-level (use frame-standard-output to get the listener stream) 00:53:22 -!- jp_larocque [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:53:53 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:53 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:55:26 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:55:50 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 00:56:11 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-88-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:56:50 I think I used to run it that way, with a #+hef protecting the binding of *debug-io*, but the listener has since shed most of its custom toplevel code and reverted to letting mcclim's default methods set all that up 00:57:24 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-173.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:10 jp_larocque [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 01:00:17 hefner: also, i don't know if you have the pdf clim user guide of franz, but in the pixmaps example, there is an expression like that: (clim:copy-from-pixmap pixmap 0 0 (- right left) (- bottom top) medium x y function) can it be somehow correct since copy-from-pixmap seems to have exactly 8 arguments both in the other online clim specs and in the franz user guide. 01:00:21 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:01:53 the code didn't work, at first i thought it is because of some allegro specific code in there, but there isn't. i guess the code is wrong 01:02:23 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 01:02:23 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:54 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 01:03:22 kenanb pasted "allegro clim pixmap example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93318 01:03:49 due mostly I think to how much PDF readers suck, mcclim implementation tends to get done with the HTMLized spec as a reference rather than one of the vendor user guides, to the detriment of compatibility 01:06:04 i don't feel like digging up the franz or lispworks docs right now, but I assume the problem is that the vendors added a 'function' arg that CLIM 2.0 and mcclim don't support, so the right thing is for mcclim to add it as &optional 01:06:05 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-152-185-30.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 01:07:39 hefner: ok, now i see that there is really an additional argument in copy-from-pixmap definition of allegro clim guide, sorry, it was my mistake. 01:08:41 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:09:35 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 01:10:02 anyway, i should go, thanks guys, good night 01:10:04 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.45.204] has left #lisp 01:10:40 I HATE LISP =/ 01:10:40 -!- Hergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 01:17:21 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:17:23 crod [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 01:17:46 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:23:56 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:25:32 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-111-74.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:26:09 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:26:45 -!- ysph [n=user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:26:54 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:40 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:36:18 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:38:44 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:39:28 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 01:39:48 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:40:34 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.82.141] has joined #lisp 01:41:07 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:46:47 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:03 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:00:43 are there programming competitions that accept lisp? 02:02:07 gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 02:05:42 -!- jp_larocque [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 02:06:58 Gibbon [n=Gibbon@201.171.123.85] has joined #lisp 02:08:47 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:11:13 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 02:16:13 -!- Gibbon [n=Gibbon@201.171.123.85] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:47 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:18:37 konr: yes, there are. 02:19:22 -!- realbatman [n=user@59.164.187.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:19:29 konr: http://www.spoj.pl/ for example. 02:20:15 pjb: hmm, any other? Spoj was the only one I knew about :) 02:21:42 I don't know any other, but I don't know everything. 02:22:04 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 02:23:10 ICFP also accepts Lisp among other languages 02:23:35 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:04 QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 02:26:49 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:31:52 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:17 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:28 _3b`: you around? 02:32:37 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 02:32:40 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:43 <_3b> Ralith: nope 02:33:04 _3b: you will suffice. 02:33:36 _3b: Using your cl-glut, I'm getting a segfault the *second* time I open a window. 02:34:07 this is identical to a problem I'm having in glop, which doesn't touch glut. 02:34:19 or, indeed, cl-opengl at all 02:34:38 and identical to a problem that I got using cl-glut 02:34:53 and I think Ralith's friend feep also got this problem 02:34:59 Adlai: didn't you reproduce on glop as well? 02:35:05 yep, that too 02:35:13 <_3b> wfm :p 02:35:20 I would imagine so 02:35:22 wfotherpeople too 02:35:28 but do you have any idea what might be going on here? 02:35:41 in glop, I can open as many windows as I want so long as I don't close the X display connection. 02:35:45 _3b, Ralith and I are both on stock Intel graphics cards, if that has anything to do with it :\ 02:35:51 <_3b> could be 02:36:01 _3b: pure GLX in C works fine, though. 02:36:15 <_3b> in same usage pattern? 02:36:34 ? 02:36:36 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:43 launching N windows sequentially yes 02:36:48 <_3b> multiple windows from same process, etc 02:36:52 yes 02:36:55 <_3b> same thread? 02:37:46 yes 02:37:59 in glop, a new X connection is created for each window 02:38:10 <_3b> might try single threaded lisp just in case that is an issue 02:38:24 Adlai reproduces on clisp 02:38:26 is that singlethreaded? 02:38:30 <_3b> probably 02:38:33 my build is 02:38:37 well there we go 02:38:49 I also reproduced in SBCL running single-threaded 02:38:53 ie, no slme 02:39:38 <_3b> you create new X connections for each window in the C code as well? 02:39:49 in the test I did, yes. 02:39:59 I took a simple GLX demo and wrapped main in while(1) :P 02:40:40 I can't imagine why closing the X connection would have an effect on new windows. 02:40:47 oh, and in glop, the segfault is in glXMakeCurrent 02:40:52 I imagine it is the same elsewhere 02:41:14 I can verify easily enough though 02:41:32 *_3b* just wants to be sure the C code and lisp code do the dame thing 02:41:37 <_3b> *same 02:41:46 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:41:57 as far as I can tell, they do. 02:42:05 something must be different, though, or the lisp code would work >_> 02:42:12 <_3b> right 02:43:14 *_3b* doesn't have any particularly useful ideas though, i avoid messing with that low level stuff as much as i can, and avoid intel gfx cards even more :p 02:43:52 :/ 02:44:02 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 02:44:38 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 02:47:04 <_3b> heh, does glop still do version check wrong? 02:48:37 _3b: version check? 02:49:33 <_3b> (and (>= maj major) (>= min minor)) in src/x11/glx.lisp correct-context? 02:49:55 yes 02:50:04 benny [n=benny@i577A7BA4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:50:04 not that that is relevant 02:50:08 <_3b> so what happens when you ask for 3.2 and it gives you 4.0? 02:50:21 <_3b> (right, completely unrelated to current issue) 02:50:32 <_3b> just first thing i noticed looking at the code 02:50:50 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:50:53 or perhaps more importantly 02:51:07 when you ask for 1.2 and it gives you 2.0 02:51:24 <_3b> well, you don't generally need to ask if you want 1.2 02:51:58 <_3b> but same problem there too 02:53:20 *_3b* 's best guess for segfault stuff is trace a bunch of glx/xlib functions, and see if you call anything out of order 02:54:05 <_3b> ( with-foo trying to clean up after things stuff being cleaned up depends on are destroyed, that sort of thing) 02:54:30 except the segfault doesn't occur on cleanup 02:54:39 it occurs on glXMakeCurrent of a new window 02:54:41 :/ 02:55:03 <_3b> right, but who knows what sort of things might be getting confused in foreign code 02:55:38 'kay 02:55:51 <_3b> also for seeing if things actually happen when you think they do for comparing to the C code 02:56:05 also 02:56:16 if I trigger the segfault enough 02:56:18 <_3b> either that or work on a more direct test case implemented in both C and lisp to narrow it down 02:56:20 SBCL itself drops into ldb 02:56:37 _3b: I would have already, but even a trivial testcase for window creation in X is... hard :| 02:56:58 <_3b> yeah, that's why i use glfw or whatever :p 02:57:30 or, say, glop 02:57:32 ^^ 02:57:40 <_3b> (though if one of the 'whatever's isn't working too, i gues it would fall into the 'why i don't use intel gfx' instead :p ) 02:58:02 <_3b> right, once it works :) 02:58:07 it does work 02:58:11 just ... only once on an intel. 02:58:18 only once, when on an intel* 03:01:00 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["bedtime, laterz"] 03:01:19 <_3b> well, i'm afk for a while, good luck with the debugging :) 03:01:52 ty 03:02:38 -!- Ri- is now known as Ri-|away 03:07:25 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.17.223.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 03:09:36 pjb` [n=t@251.Red-88-30-127.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:59 QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 03:13:43 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:14:41 -!- pjb [n=t@103.Red-88-30-124.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:56 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 03:18:49 I put the cll archive on S3 if anyone wants it. 03:18:52 Show of hands? 03:20:35 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 03:22:59 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d819530.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:35 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:24:48 pjb [n=t@187.Red-79-149-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:47 -!- pjb` [n=t@251.Red-88-30-127.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:27:45 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:27:50 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:28:35 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:05 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 03:33:52 ysph [n=user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:35:30 -!- wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d81ab72.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:35:47 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:37:01 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:38:36 boo. 03:38:39 Xach: That'd be nice. 03:38:52 http://data.xach.com/cll.txt.gz is it 03:39:19 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:40:03 Xach, I'm reading through your save-runtime-options code for SBCL, and one thing confuses me a bit: why do you put the runtime_options in an array and then write the array to the file, rather than just writing the runtime_options struct directly? 03:40:27 Adlai: I don't think it occurred to me. 03:40:30 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.66.82.141] has quit [] 03:40:32 thanks 03:41:01 Adlai: I don't know much about C, so it's probably what I'd do in CL translated to C. 03:41:14 Adlai: writing structs? Generally not such a good idea. 03:41:21 ok, I don't either, which is why I asked. 03:41:37 pkhuong, is it a better idea to write an array? 03:41:56 I'm looking at write_runtime_options() in src/runtime/save.c 03:42:15 At least the layout is clear and easy to understand when it's an array. 03:43:16 don't C structs have a predictable layout too? 03:43:45 -!- enodran [n=enodran@208-78-98-174.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:43:51 Adlai: no. 03:43:55 Adlai: you still have to know the bytesex for numerical values, and to have structures with no pointer inside... 03:43:57 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:45:26 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-180-111.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:46:24 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:22 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 03:50:23 -!- ruediger_ 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[n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:56 pfeyz [n=user@146.95.65.217] has joined #lisp 05:47:04 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 05:48:53 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:49:02 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 05:50:02 malsyned_ [n=malsyned@24-151-81-214.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:50:12 Hello everyone! I have more silly questions! 05:50:26 go on 05:53:03 I'm wondering if there's an interface to system() in cmu and/or sbcl. Like ext:shell in clisp or ccl::os-command in ccl 05:53:15 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 05:53:17 I've been digging through manuals but I haven't found anything 05:53:22 Yes, they have something similar. 05:53:28 (apropos "RUN-PROGRAM") 05:53:31 (apropos "SHELL") 05:54:30 pjb: a ha! thanks. 05:54:41 malsyned: Also, ccl:run-program would be better than using the internal ccl::os-command. 05:56:18 -!- footeb [n=footeb@173-11-62-37-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:56:41 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:56:42 -!- bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:56:48 rme: agreed. but I'm collecting interfaces to both system() and execvp(). 05:58:38 just sortof doing a survey of what the various lisps support. 06:00:23 -!- pfeyz [n=user@146.95.65.217] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:01:28 ok, but no complaining when I delete ccl::os-command :-) 06:02:12 rme: it's a deal. If it's really in danger of that, though, you might want to consider taking it out of section 14.6 of your manual. 06:02:31 just kidding, of course. 06:02:39 likewise 06:03:46 Are there any "thin wrappers" around all the various run-program-esque facilities of the various lisps? If not, I'm making one right now, because it's silly not to have one. 06:04:33 The common lisp directory might be a good place to check quickly. 06:08:51 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:09:14 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 06:09:46 malsyned, i think that all the run-programs are slightly unfortunately specified in some way 06:10:05 The common denominator is probably useful. 06:10:10 crod: ECL's certainly is. 06:10:24 they make it difficult to capture the output and give the input streams to the program 06:10:29 -!- crod is now known as c|mell 06:10:36 Zhivago: closest I found on cld was trivial-shell, which gives basic command execution, but none of the fancy stream redirection. 06:11:02 Well, there you go, then. 06:11:14 i checked before and there is no portable one which handles the streams in a decent way, it would be grand if you would make one 06:11:14 yup. Looks like an itch I get to scratch myself! 06:11:30 c|mell: well, I'll give it my best shot. 06:11:31 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 06:12:03 malsyned, maybe you could do something with cffi instead of relying on the idiocies of each implementation 06:13:36 c|mell: I will if I have to. 06:22:04 in ACL resize-area .. its scaveging all the time.. 13642 dmiles 19 -1 6122m 2.2g 684m R 99.8 28.7 305:11.32 alisp 06:22:43 i have loaded this before it needs to reach 3.0g... is there a way to bump it up now and do less scaveging> 06:23:38 basically i been gc thrashing for 5 hours.. and its growing too slow 06:23:52 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cyiqgvuuiofgvlbt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:55 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-xhkipfbrfzqvrrrv] has joined #lisp 06:23:58 morning 06:24:03 *dmiles_afk* went gym+shopping+dinner isntead of watching it 06:24:18 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:25:22 (cl:setf (sys:gsgc-parameter :expansion-free-percent-old 06:25:22 ) 50) 06:25:26 oops 06:26:02 (sys:gsgc-parameter :expansion-free-percent-old) 35 -> 50 .. that mean give me more at a time? 06:26:21 oops also i meant :expansion-free-percent-new 06:28:52 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:29:56 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:33:55 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:34:49 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nmrjuvxkasbbsdzf] has joined #lisp 06:35:27 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:45 TR2N` [i=email@89-180-148-233.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 06:38:15 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-238-80.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:38:17 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 06:42:18 poet [n=user@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 06:44:00 heh told it that it had insane memory.. at least now it never GCs 06:44:02 16844 dmiles 20 0 17.8g 2.6g 334m R 99.8 33.8 2:49.93 alisp 06:44:30 now its at this point of a restart wehre it was five hours of runing 06:45:03 sbcl says it's using 556m 06:46:00 i am loading a bunch of semweb triple store 06:46:51 now its at 17.8g/3.8g .. only 4 gcs so far.. isnstead of 1000s 06:48:17 of course it shouldnt use 17.8 gb.. but if it thinks it can have that much then the GCing is less is my assumption 06:57:30 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:00:13 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:00:17 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 07:01:24 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 07:04:50 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:04:50 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:05:12 good morning 07:06:30 -!- poet [n=user@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:39 good moooornin vietnam 07:06:55 dmiles_afk, yes the allegro gc is shockingly badly tuned for nearly every work load -- thing we did was call sys:resize-areas with massive newspace 07:07:03 Kaonashi, good morning laos! 07:07:46 ! 07:07:57 c|mell even small workloads it seems.. just starting the app before i got a change to plug in a resize-area was nutty gcing 07:08:20 before i even got a chance to plug in new values* 07:08:42 i trying out (sys:resize-areas :verbose t :new 15000000000 :old 15000000000) 07:09:06 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["out"] 07:09:07 making a huge oldspace had some drawbacks for us i think 07:09:23 ah good to know.. yeah i was wondering which one to reduce 07:09:26 16951 dmiles 20 0 43.9g 5.3g 313m R 99.7 69.0 15:12.14 alisp 07:09:38 note that allegro actually needs 2x newspace because they copy 07:09:57 2x oldspace = newspace? 07:10:38 no i mean they copy from one version of newspace to a new one, so they need 2x the memory that you specify for newspace 07:10:47 you can have a small oldspace, no worries 07:11:03 i really do read docs ;) but you in alike 3 setences have told me mnore than the docs 07:11:42 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 07:19:08 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 07:22:59 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:24:50 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:26:54 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:50 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:30:38 emma_ [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 07:31:21 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:32:51 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 07:37:49 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-113-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:41:08 -!- Jabberwockey 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09:13:52 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:14:32 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:34 Hmm there's a comment in make-thread that says that the initial function may not cons until "we are ready to run the GC"; I wonder what point in the code that should be? 09:18:14 there's some pushing just a few lines further down the line, and I don't see the point that sets up GC in the lines between 09:19:53 Also, the EMPTY lexical variable is bound to "(vector)"; doesn't that in fact cons? 09:22:50 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 09:23:25 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 09:23:31 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 09:24:07 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:29:56 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:30:10 -!- seangrov` [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:30:46 I have no idea, but the first time a thread triggers GC is not the first time it conses, it's the first time it exhausts its initial allocation region, so an empty vector isn't enough to fill those pages. 09:33:35 j0be [n=chatzill@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 09:35:41 how do I display a list with all global variables defined in the local namespace... something like dir() in python? 09:40:13 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 09:42:26 j0be: i'd iterate over current package collecting the symbols that are boundp 09:42:34 ah, you mean local 09:42:39 then i don't know. 09:42:49 your debugger should support that 09:43:11 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-211-192.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:47:56 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 09:52:55 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-106.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 09:54:50 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:58:15 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:58:28 allegroCL is my Lisp, I will look into this debugger thing 09:58:37 Dodek: thanks 10:00:12 Wow, someone is going to take a stab at provable Lisp compilation: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mom22/jit/jit.pdf 10:02:30 "The input language of our verified JIT compiler is a simple stack-based bytecode. In the future, we plan to extend this input language to a bytecode language suitable for reimplementation of our ver ifiedx86, ARM and PowerPC implementations of a LISP interpreter" 10:03:14 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:07:18 deepfire: provable? 10:10:07 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:10:29 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 10:10:33 Ralith, well, the author constructs compiler in such a way that it's amenable to proving. 10:11:19 I just stumbled upon "What I want from my Common Lisp vendor and the Common Lisp community 10:11:28 by Eric Naggum 10:11:28 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-205-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:48 Via Xach's newfangled archive: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/b173bcef.html 10:13:32 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:13:33 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-21-216.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:58 deepfire: to proving *what*? 10:15:17 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:16:06 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:16:37 Ralith, compiler's correctness 10:16:38 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:16:43 -!- deepfire is now known as _deepfire 10:17:02 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 10:17:50 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 10:18:08 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:07 ozenati [n=ozenati@salle005.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 10:20:30 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-2-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:20:39 -!- ozenati [n=ozenati@salle005.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 10:20:58 ozenati [n=ozenati@salle005.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 10:22:31 | The resulting correctness theorem states that the JIT compiler correctly implements $exec$: given a stack, a string representing the encoding of a bytecode program, and enough space to fit the generated x86 code, the JIT compiler will always terminate in a state where the stack has been updated according to $exec$. 10:23:09 what happens if the margin is not big enough to contain the transformation? 10:23:47 -!- ozenati [n=ozenati@salle005.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:56 I don't claim to have read or understood most of the paper (much less the endless HOL4 proof files), but it looks somewhat impressive to me that x86 semantics (apparently including icache invalidation needed for the JIT) are being considered. 10:24:17 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-24-17.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:25:17 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@213.Red-83-39-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:33:44 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-212-110.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:36:41 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:38:31 at a recent Scheme workshop there was a fun pair of talks: Will Clinger describing a compiler (MACSCHEME?) he once wrote that proved correct, and was used & sold commercially for many years with never a bug found. then a talk about a testing tool that shook half a dozen bugs out of the PLT scheme compiler in a weekend or so :) 10:38:53 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 10:40:47 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:46:08 *Xof* is sad that no-one cares about his clever colour picker 10:46:56 Xof, I don't understand what it does :\ 10:46:56 lukego: how many conceptually-different object systems do you think there are? 10:47:13 Adlai: excellent, a victim. 10:47:29 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 10:48:22 Xof: I'm not really an afficionado, but, I suppose: CLOS, Smalltalk, SELF, Actors(?). Java is different for at least boring static typing / early binding reasons. 10:48:50 Xof, looks like I need to take CC227 10:49:13 bbl 10:50:02 Adlai: in the image , which colour is brightest? 10:51:09 Xof, definitely not the blue. The red seems a bit brighter than the green. 10:51:13 What's the easiest way to customize the bit in the slime-repl buffer that displays " Port: ... Pid: ..."? Any hints? 10:51:45 in the slime-repl? 10:52:07 hm what are you talking about? 10:52:09 Adlai: it's an interesting thing how our perception is skewed by expectations 10:52:24 the green is in fact many times brighter than either the red or the blue 10:52:26 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:52:28 Adlai: I find the green the brightest 10:53:23 the human eye is not as sensitive to some of the primary colors right? I forget which. 10:53:43 ref. HSV they are all equal 10:53:57 tcr: the slime repl has a top line that displays the implementation name, port and pid. Right? 10:53:58 many colour pickers offer in a two-d plane colours of the same hue, sometimes the same saturation or value 10:54:13 the point is that what lnostdal says is completely not true 10:54:48 oh 10:55:04 luis: hm not for me, but I may have done C-c M-o 10:55:45 the eye is much more sensitive to green than to red or blue 10:56:04 tcr: it's sort of the buffer title I suppose. It doesn't go away with C-c M-o. 10:56:04 anyway, what the colour picker I wrote does is offer colours of the same subjective brightness 10:56:11 really? why is that? 10:56:14 rather than colours of the same hue 10:56:32 adjusted for flaws in perception 10:56:33 Adlai: we have more receptors sensitive to green. 10:56:41 Adlai: details of the absorption characteristics of the pigments in the cone cells in the eye 10:56:50 hm, possibly also what luis says 10:56:51 Not to mention that it all also depends on adjacent colours. :) 10:56:55 but still, they "really" are equal .. right? .. i mean; if our perception was correct that is 10:57:08 Since colour has relatively little to do with light frequency. 10:57:10 lnostdal: I doubt ti 10:57:14 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:42 is it not possible to measure this accurately? .. like amplitude for sound? 10:57:43 luis, Xof, those are the physiological reasons right now; I guess I meant "what evolutionary pressures have led to this increased sensitivity?" 10:57:51 or .. wait .. color is perhaps frequency; i forget 10:57:56 Adlai: there's a lot of green around in the world 10:58:10 (still .. same applies, though) 10:58:11 lnostdal: hah, amplitude and perceived loudness are also not simply related 10:58:27 Xof: no. there's a lot of green we notice in the world ;) 10:58:38 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:39 lnostdal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour 10:58:39 but if you take a spectrometer out, you will see a lot of blue :) 10:58:42 yes, but disregarding that i mean .. one can read out accurate values even though loudness (perception) is inaccurate 10:58:44 wouldn't that mean that sensitivity to other colors is important, since they're not as common as green? 10:59:15 lnostdal: colour is even more complicated than loudness, because there are lots of ways of making the same perceptual colour 10:59:15 Adlai: hmm, why would you expect our eyes to perfectly perceive color? 10:59:26 ok 10:59:48 koollman: that may be a fair point, I don't know. Is the blue mostly from the sky, or is there really a lot of blue all around? 10:59:54 lnostdal: but to answer your question, yes, it can be measured. But knowing how it will be seen is different 10:59:56 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:59:56 (I have no idea :)) 11:00:08 Adlai: Perhaps so we have better capability to distinguish fine differences in the amount of green? 11:00:12 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 11:00:17 Xof: where does the light that permits us to see comes from ? (not recently, but during the main part of humanity?) 11:00:25 koollman, yeah 11:00:31 Xof: reddish sun, blueish sky. 11:00:31 Xof: now if some screen maker decides to adjust green pixel brightness by the necessary amount to compensate for subjective hue, your colour picker breaks? ((: 11:01:04 luis, I wouldn't expect that, but I'm wondering why this specific pattern instead of any of the other possible ones. 11:01:19 koollman: in terms of evolutionary development, I submit that it is less important to be sensitive to blue which is mostly ambient than to green which is, in practice, directional 11:01:45 antifuchs: they break really quite a lot more than just my colour picker 11:01:50 they break every single digital image out there 11:01:55 Xof: I agree 11:01:59 point (: 11:02:13 Xof: where can I play with this color picker? 11:02:25 Ralith, http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/clim-colours.lisp 11:02:25 also, remember that most vision systems around are made for humans. not to create real images :) 11:02:28 (antifuchs: that is actually not quite true; many digital images have colour space included) 11:02:59 right. also, most consumer monitors are entirely uncalibrated, so I suppose nobody would notice anyway (: 11:03:06 that is you can in principle transform the colours into whatever colour space your display device uses. In which case you'd also be transforming my colour picker colours similarly) 11:03:41 tcr: http://chkno.net/slime-doc.gif this screenshot shows that title line I'm talking about. 11:03:56 Adlai: needs clim? :/ 11:04:01 Is my impression right that when I call SLEEP, serve-event is not performed during sleepage? 11:04:21 tcr: I would have said that that was wrong, but that would be just my hazy recollection of what happened five years ago 11:04:33 Ralith, of course :P 11:04:51 clbuild install mcclim 11:04:53 Ralith: you can probably port it to just clx without very much difficulty 11:05:02 it uses almost none of clim's functionality 11:05:58 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f6610e7-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 11:06:00 luis: I've seen that, but it does not seem to be there here at my box. Do you see it? Do other see it? 11:06:46 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:07:25 Maybe Helmut removed it? 11:08:38 perhaps; perhaps the emacs version? 11:11:19 so, I take it you can't give me an hint how to customize that bit? :) 11:11:38 -!- Douglish [i=dal@horinek.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:12:00 -!- j0be [n=chatzill@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 11:12:51 "use the source"? 11:15:12 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-48.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:17:42 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:34 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:20:31 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 11:21:13 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-212-110.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:23:51 I think my problem is that I can't figure how Emacs calls that buffer title. 11:26:19 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nmrjuvxkasbbsdzf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:26:45 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zdgicmavkuihucsx] has joined #lisp 11:28:09 tcr: ah, I think I got it. It's in the slime-banner contrib. 11:28:38 header-line-format 11:29:22 ok that makes sense 11:29:52 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 11:30:20 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-212-110.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:30:49 So I think I must misunderstand serve-event. If I call (READ) in a thread, I thought serve-event would be periodically called in that thread while it's waiting for input. That's not what I'm seeing but perhaps I'm doing it wrong. 11:35:12 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:35:23 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 11:37:10 what's your test case? 11:38:16 thread-locally binding sb-sys:*periodic-polling-function* which is called in sub-serve-event 11:38:31 also; (trace sb-impl::sub-serve-event :print sb-thread:*current-thread*) 11:39:47 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:29 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 11:43:24 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 11:43:43 Xof, or other sbcl hackers, any quick idea how/why a "Memory fault at 71 (pc=0x100c22869d, sp=0x7ffff504f6d8)" can come from SB-PCL::REAL-ADD-METHOD? 11:44:24 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:25 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:45:48 beware: errors deep inside are caught and resignalled, because there's a whopping great consistency lock around most of real-add-method 11:46:12 I spent a lot of time debugging the wrong thing last time that came up 11:52:50 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:53:45 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:53:48 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 11:55:20 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:58:06 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 12:07:44 <_deepfire> I wonder if ><, >=<, >/=< and >=/< are good names for three-value range-membership predicates. 12:08:17 looks like brainfuck 12:08:22 looks like haskell 12:08:49 <_deepfire> basically, (and (> y x1) (< y x2)) etc 12:08:56 in-range-p? 12:09:05 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-49-225.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:09:14 (< x1 y x2) ? 12:09:14 <_deepfire> tcr, well, what about variations? 12:09:30 sfyz [n=user@125.34.213.20] has joined #lisp 12:09:33 hrm, i've tried to add a handler-bind inside the lock that prints a backtrace, but it seems to come from somewhere else... now trying with restrict compiler policy. thanks Xof for the heads up! 12:09:35 <_deepfire> in-range-inclusive-left-p ? 12:09:53 _deepfire: |()|, |[)| etc (; 12:10:13 <_deepfire> :-) 12:10:39 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has left #lisp 12:12:55 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:07 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-148-233.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:03 davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:12 Xof, for educational reasons, it was due to an error hidden by safety 0... :/ 12:18:23 purposes, i mean 12:18:38 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-152-185-30.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:39 *attila_lendvai* is afk 12:19:01 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-115-76.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:38 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-212-110.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:24:06 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 12:27:12 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-32-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:59 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 12:30:26 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:37:33 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 12:38:24 Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.214.182] has joined #lisp 12:39:44 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 12:40:18 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.214.182] has quit [Client Quit] 12:40:35 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:40:44 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zdgicmavkuihucsx] has left #lisp 12:44:35 Kenjin_ [n=Kenjin@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 12:45:35 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:46:52 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@83.240.225.146] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:47:03 -!- Kenjin_ is now known as Kenjin 12:48:34 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:48:52 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 12:49:21 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-106.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:49:49 Xach: nice bit-vector trick. shades of Bentley. 12:50:20 thanks. that was on my mind. 12:50:44 it's exciting when an idea works out... 12:51:06 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:51:31 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:51:40 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 12:51:47 hm. but are your search-vectors also 40MB each? or sparse bit-vectors? or? 12:52:18 oh I'm being silly, 40 K bits. 12:52:33 the bitvector for each term is about 5000 bits. 12:53:32 oh, I misread the first time around, thinking the vector was "terms in this article" 12:53:50 if i wanted to do phrase search, i'd need something like that. 12:54:01 *Xach* hasn't done the numbers on how much space that would take 12:54:24 i was hoping to let google take care of that, eventually 12:54:32 t'is a jolly nice bit of programming. this is the kind of NoSQL I like best :) 12:56:39 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:56:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-188-205.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:56:53 -!- besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:00:03 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:00:42 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:03:15 ams [n=ams@94.246.125.191] has joined #lisp 13:04:29 hmm, that might add only about 5MB to the search structure.. 13:06:07 Xach: how did you come up with the terms? 13:07:31 splittist: effectively the same as splitting on whitespace and some string-trim variations. 13:07:50 i'm not especially pleased with how that works. 13:07:53 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-2-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:09:53 anyone know of a barcode image decoding library? 13:10:05 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:10:09 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:10:48 I'm not aware of a barcode decoding library written in Lisp, although I'd love to see one... 13:11:53 run-shell-command to zbarimg is too easy to justify the effort for a pure lisp implementation here at the moment, even though it sounds like a fun project. 13:12:07 Perhaps various slyrusware could help with the image processing needed. 13:12:18 hmmm... 13:12:26 surely it's pretty trivial, as image processing goes 13:12:57 lichtblau: can one restart hemlock.tty? i get WARNING: Non fds to monitor and no timeout set ! when i try to start it again 13:13:10 any decent enough image processing ibraries then? 13:13:21 stassats`: hmm, what does "restart" mean in this context? 13:13:31 lichtblau: (hemlock) C-x C-c (hemlock) 13:13:34 ams: ch-image is meant for image processing, i think. i haven't used it. 13:13:43 *ams* looks. 13:14:11 ams: cyrus used it for some kind of fruit fly scan analysis for his thesis iirc. 13:14:15 ah, okay. Yes, you should be able to start new hemlock processes (no matter whether you exited the old ones, in fact). 13:14:23 hmm, his site is very slow or down for me. 13:14:30 Xach: link? 13:14:41 sounds interesting, just the thesis alone that is 13:15:01 lichtblau: can you reproduce? 13:15:01 (I think CMUCL hemlock had a keystroke to go back to the CMUCL repl without actually killing hemlock, and then go back again, so I wasn't certain whether you were perhaps referring to that. It's not currently bound to a key, but thecommand should still be there.) 13:15:04 found itthinkas 13:15:10 stassats`: Which OS are you on? 13:15:22 sbcl-linux-x86 13:16:54 hmm, that should work. Can you paste the output, ideally with a stacktrace? 13:18:06 lichtblau: I think that functionality (to and from repl) is from TECO Emacs, and certainly Multics Emacs. (Hmmm) 13:18:26 lichtblau: and another: when I hit C-l after resizing my terminal it says Error: The value NIL is not of type HEMLOCK-INTERNALS::WINDOW-DIS-LINE. 13:19:07 Dawgmatix_: "if youre a space buff then theres no bigger success than - http://www.franz.com/success/" :O that was true? 13:19:21 I read that in the Practical Common Lisp thing and thought it was at best an exaggeration 13:19:32 I always assumed nasa would be programming in c or lower 13:20:07 Edico_ [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:20:39 stassats`: that error is a known issue. I'm happy that tty resizing works at all now; the very first redraw after resizing still runs into that error, but at least afterwards things should be okay again. 13:21:15 :) james 13:21:27 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@79.102.10.236] has joined #lisp 13:22:07 rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:04 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 13:23:23 lichtblau: I finally tried to run hemlock.tty and I ran into (assert (eq #\O (char string 1))) 13:24:15 jamesstanley: ADA if anything. 13:24:21 lichtblau: with :kludge nil, I get "Conditional expression parser not yet written." suggestions ? 13:25:08 fe[nl]ix: i solved this with TERM=xterm ... 13:25:29 stassats`: what terminal are you using ? 13:26:02 that was in urxvt 13:26:11 lol, me too 13:26:18 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 13:26:43 and it also works in screen 13:27:03 billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:10 lichtblau: did you get that email with the pre-commit hook ? 13:27:40 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 13:27:54 fe[nl]ix: aha, that's a nikodemus first attempt at support for fancy keys. 13:28:26 You could either go the easy route and revert tty-input.lisp back to 81744ecb. Or you could try merging his second attempt (which might fix things properly), which is in branch merge-wip-tty-2. 13:28:57 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:28:58 lichtblau: TERM=xterm works, I'll leave it that way for the moment :) 13:30:51 lichtblau: now that we have the anti-TAB commit hook, I'd like to detabify the sources 13:31:28 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:32:23 I don't recall seeing a pre-commit hook mail. 13:32:34 besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:32:47 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:56 stassats pasted "hemlock backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93330 13:33:03 lichtblau: here it is 13:34:08 lichtblau: subject was "Re: [asdf-devel] tab-blocking commit hook", with you in Cc: 13:36:19 lichtblau: and output: it constantly prints this warning 13:39:19 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-42-179.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:39:30 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:42:05 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:31 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D0FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:27 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:50 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:03 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-42-179.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:51:19 jmckitrick [n=user@adsl-176-73-108.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:37 What are some practical uses for list* over list? 13:52:20 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 13:52:23 jmckitrick: you already have the tail of the list. You could (append (list ...) tail), but that's wasteful. 13:52:37 jmckitrick: (let ((*special-var* (list* 'a 'b *special-var*))) ...) 13:52:50 basically for adding stuff onto the front of a list 13:53:02 (which list doesn't do at all) 13:54:33 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has left #lisp 13:55:57 As opposed to PUSH? 13:56:14 Wait, I might have misspoke. 13:56:15 jmckitrick: as opposed to CONS. 13:56:21 Right. 13:57:19 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/a8a55041.html <-- a use of LIST* 13:57:32 jmckitrick: list* is a generalized cons, sort of 14:04:36 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:05:35 stassats`: how often do you get the warning ? 14:06:39 fe[nl]ix: often than a second, i suppose 14:08:57 f 14:09:56 stassats`: and you get that as soon as you start hemlock ? 14:10:02 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:32 fe[nl]ix: right 14:10:37 for the second time, that is 14:11:54 -!- sfyz [n=user@125.34.213.20] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:59 second time ? 14:12:10 Xach: something odd is happening for me on your archive 14:12:17 Oh? 14:12:18 this article displays fine: 14:12:31 fe[nl]ix: start hemlock, exit, start again and i get this right away 14:12:32 *Xach* is guessing: auto-detection of chinese because of format strings 14:12:41 but attempting to view the next one, either using next or from the menu gives me no content 14:13:09 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 14:13:09 Xof: does the URL change? 14:13:12 in one particular browser, mind you 14:13:20 Xach: the address bar goes blank 14:13:32 Xof: hmm, I can't reproduce. 14:13:42 stassats`: I can't reproduce that 14:14:20 lichtblau can't either 14:14:34 Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.214.182] has joined #lisp 14:14:38 Xach: it is probably a problem of some kind at my end 14:15:07 I'm probably going to bite the bullet and rename the files to their message-ids. 14:15:15 would you mind looking in error_log for failures regarding naggum/articles/0013ad68.html from 158.223.51.79? 14:16:20 Xof: no failure. It shows a 200 response and 2816 bytes in the body. 14:16:40 stassats`: that warning is more of a soft assertion, just makes the select() backend return immediately 14:16:45 well, then it's probably epiphany being lame 14:16:51 (I can retrieve it fine with w3m) 14:16:54 Xof: that's for w3m 14:17:03 Xof: no other request visible from that IP for that document 14:17:15 ok, that's a lot more interesting 14:17:53 fe[nl]ix: okay, from a cursory look the hook looks fine. I think the detabification would need to be done in three steps: 1. Add appropriate -*- lines at the top. 2. detabify the files. 3. add the hook. 14:19:11 I wonder if I have a translucent proxy somewhere in the way 14:19:18 lichtblau: you can add the hook right away: it only screams at you when you add new tabs - matches lines starting with #\+ 14:19:41 lichtblau: I'll warn you before pushing the commit 14:20:52 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.17.223.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 14:21:22 fe[nl]ix: I don't have pending changes aside from nikodemus' branches. Would you be willing to do all of the steps? 14:21:37 already started 14:22:36 would you detabify HEAD or filter-branch the entire repo? 14:23:05 I think the branch merges would be easier if all branches would be detabified retroactively. 14:23:11 what could be considered the most ubiquitous LISP web framework(s)? 14:23:54 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-196-95.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:24:36 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:24:44 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:51 lichtblau: I'll try that 14:25:50 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:07 lol, "Hemlock Word Abbreviation Mode by Jamie W. Zawinski 24 September 1985" 14:27:04 lawl what? 14:27:06 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:27:26 sounds like something jwz would do, heh 14:27:29 the author, the date 14:27:41 Yes, jwz. 14:27:43 Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 14:28:07 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-188-205.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:10 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:12 rahul: I was 4 months old when he wrote abbrev.lisp :D 14:28:38 *stassats`* wasn't born yet 14:28:52 *p_l* neither 14:29:02 kids these days 14:29:21 I was at least using a computer by that time :) 14:29:23 *p_l* watches in awe a battery that discharges without discharging 14:29:31 I think I had written a couple lines of basic around then 14:30:05 I was doing BASIC at that time. 14:30:23 rahul: have you gotten over the pain of prefix form? 14:30:34 prefix form? 14:30:42 re http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3150148973811268@naggum.no.html 14:30:58 hmmm... discharges after all ^^; 14:31:19 Xach: ahh the early days 14:31:27 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:28 Xach: I was right! 14:31:38 Xach: and tell you what, I never used any infix notation packages 14:31:53 you're the master of all notations now? 14:31:53 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-22-93.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:32:07 getting used to lisp syntax happened so fast I didn't bother with the effort of infix readers 14:32:14 heh 14:32:28 well, I know how useless infix is, in the long run 14:32:39 i think that [] infix reader is cute anyway. 14:32:47 yeah 14:32:48 it is 14:33:17 (error "infix operator is not properly redundant") 14:33:48 ah, Mr. Naggum. 14:34:16 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:34 heh 14:34:41 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:34:43 proper redundance is a must 14:36:15 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:36:24 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:00 anyway, off to my infix-soaked job 14:37:23 konr [n=user@189.96.84.121] has joined #lisp 14:37:36 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:38:10 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:58 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:39:52 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:40:00 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-120.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:40:36 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:40:50 hemlock doesn't like cyrillics much 14:41:23 Xach: I'm not able to access that link to naggum's article either. A general search turns up 6 articles with list* in them. 14:41:24 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:41:40 i broke something. 14:41:42 fixed now 14:41:53 c|mell: I missed you at ##lispweb :) 14:41:59 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 14:41:59 Bingo.. 14:42:24 -!- besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:19 Wait a sec... it gives me a different article each time I load that url 14:44:17 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:45:31 yes...i screwed up something else, fixing. 14:45:43 jmckitrick: the url i gave to rahul a moment ago is the original. 14:46:48 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.214.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:47:35 The 'trivial-infix-reader' example? 14:48:00 yes. 14:48:09 Got it, thanks. 14:48:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-22-93.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:49:47 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:50:43 off to my job as well... 14:50:45 -!- jmckitrick [n=user@adsl-176-73-108.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:55:24 Does anyone have an opinion about inter-thread messaging APIs? 14:55:46 Perhaps some pointer "I very much like it how XYZ does it" 14:56:21 honEst- [i=pScript@62.85.84.228] has joined #lisp 14:56:24 -!- honEst- [i=pScript@62.85.84.228] has left #lisp 14:56:28 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 14:56:31 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-48.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:57:43 tcr: I think chanl's approach is neat, but haven't got a chance to play with it 14:58:10 tcr: mailboxes are nice, pipes are useful if you can encode the message in just 8 bits 14:58:12 which is probably not the stellar endorsement you were looking for :/ 14:58:59 fe[nl]ix: I'm thinking of a sugar layer on top of mailboxes 15:00:04 Does Clojure have some nice abstractions in this regard? 15:00:12 tcr, Clojure has STM 15:00:19 tcr: if you're rolling something yourself, it probably depends on what kind of program you're writing 15:00:20 I don't think it does message-passing 15:00:33 Phew. Ok, now the archive uses original message IDs in the URL, and the old hex IDs are redirected to the new URLs. 15:00:34 Xach: kudos to you for the naggum archive. just great. :) 15:00:41 hypno: thaks, glad you like it. 15:00:43 lukego: Can you elaborate on that? How does it depend? 15:00:55 *Xach* waits for google to catch up 15:00:59 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:17 Xach: did you base it on the stuff from Ron, or something else? 15:01:21 Xach: Why didn't you do it this way from the beginning? 15:01:52 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 15:02:27 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-79-193.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:02:31 tcr: I was concerned about the @ and I found the regularity pleasant. I also didn't consider the problem of my archive going away, making it very difficult to find the original message based on the hex URL. 15:02:41 tcr: I'm imagining some whiteboard/notepad sketch of what all the stuff that has to happen concurrent is and how they need to communicate 15:03:21 tcr: I realized the serious problem with the latter as soon as I added a delicious bookmark to an archived article -- if my site goes away someday, it would be hard to derive the message id from the url. 15:03:36 I'm hacking network code in CL at the moment and trying very simple state machines (defstruct) with a homebrew scheduled (around epoll). my problem is fairly simple because the state machines are independent, no communication 15:03:48 Xach: How nice of you to take this into consideration! 15:03:50 hypno: It's from ron's archive file, with some fixes for damaged iso-8859-1 data. 15:03:54 antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:00 lukego: Do you see my privmsg? 15:04:11 did now :) 15:04:37 tcr: I'm sure that's what Xof had in mind when he suggested using message-ids, but I didn't understand the real benefit at first. 15:05:15 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 15:07:47 I think my reasoning was that you already had something that was guaranteed unique, so there was no need to hash it 15:11:03 alright, boinkmarks should update again 15:12:54 Another point is that 2^16 is not that big a number: the Naggum archive already has 2^12 articles, so there's a non-trivial probability of collision 15:14:13 0.2% if I've done my calculations right 15:18:15 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:18:20 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-120.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:56 cburroughs [n=christop@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:14 no word on the manual though 15:19:23 I turned it off because the upload failures annoyed me too much 15:19:57 (and I believe rudi had offered to build&upload?) 15:21:59 -!- cburroughs [n=christop@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has left #lisp 15:22:06 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:22:23 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["up up and away"] 15:23:06 lundis [n=lundis@79-133-9-108.bredband.aland.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:30 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.215.32] has joined #lisp 15:23:44 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:24:26 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-211-192.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:26:36 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:59 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-42-179.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:28:13 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:30:18 postamar [n=postamar@let10-doqu2.univ-avignon.fr] has joined #lisp 15:30:51 Greetings lispers. 15:32:39 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:35:33 When using paredit, a space is inserted between the #P and "" when typing pathnames. I thought that had been fixed, but can't find it. Does anyone have any idea what I'm talking about? 15:35:56 mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has joined #lisp 15:38:05 tmh: I saw that behavior also. i don't know about the fix though. 15:38:09 *Xach* is new at paredit 15:39:11 Xach: Are you using paredit-beta? 15:40:00 tmh: How can I tell? 15:40:02 Ah -> ""There is a directory of patches to paredit at each in the form of an elisp file that contains a blurb summarizing what changes..." 15:40:02 15:40:38 Xach: The elisp file is paredit-beta.el 15:40:52 No, i'm using a file named paredit.el 15:41:15 I'm not sure it matters. 15:42:10 The patches I just referenced should be applied to paredit.el, not paredit-beta 15:42:58 HG` [n=HG@xdslec216.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:44:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:49:40 fractali` [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:08 zoinking must be one of the weirdest concept I've ever seen 15:50:16 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:48 -!- ASau`` [n=user@77.246.231.66] has quit ["off"] 15:52:46 I'll have to look into this later, it's not obvious to me if the space after #P is intentional or not. There is a patch that seems to address this problem, but I'm not sure. 15:54:09 the patch is a good idea. I hate the space after #p 15:54:20 (at least subjectively it is a good idea) (: 15:54:46 and after #A 15:55:34 Here Here 15:56:28 "hear hear" 15:56:41 minion chant 15:56:49 minion: chant 15:56:49 MORE PEOPLE 15:57:04 that is to say, before paredit, I didn't see any source code that put a space after #p 15:57:05 Xof: Ah, thanks. 15:57:38 so it might be fair to call it at least a behavioral abnormality (: 15:58:02 it puts a space before "" everywhere 15:58:13 antifuchs: I still don't see any code that does, I've just become trained to cursor+backspace when typing a pathname. :-( 15:59:13 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 16:00:51 so you could consider it an honest-to-god bug (: 16:01:01 Should I quote my macro from the first form? Is it just a matter of style? 16:01:21 konr: your question doesn't make sense to me 16:01:25 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:01:54 I think that the function paredit-space-for-delimiter-p could be changed to return nil if (current-word) is "p" or "P", but that just seems like a hack :) 16:02:00 konr: you should quote the part that the macro returns; using (list ) to construct the code is rarely readable 16:02:51 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:03:54 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:04:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:48 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:07:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:07:58 unpleasantly enough, paredit-cl-octothorpe doesn't seem to work for me /-: 16:08:11 ln5 [n=ln5@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:28 antifuchs: Did you try it with paredit.el or paredit-beta.el? 16:08:35 I am using paredit.el 16:08:39 does it need the beta? 16:08:53 No, it is specified for paredit.el 16:09:05 I'm using paredit-beta. 16:09:24 huh. does it work for you? (: 16:09:39 Haven't tried it. 16:10:03 ah well 16:10:48 I don't understand what the relation is between paredit.el+patches and paredit-beta.el. I tried searching the paredit-beta.el file for some of the patch functions, specifically octothorpe related, but they are not in there. 16:11:11 mhm. 16:11:24 I know I chose to use paredit-beta.el for a reason, but can't remember why at this point. 16:11:30 haha 16:11:40 It's all a blur. :-) 16:12:03 I just use the released version and defadvice my fixes in (: 16:12:45 for your grepping pleasure, http://data.xach.com/naggum-articles.tgz has just the plain-text naggum articles from my archive. 16:12:57 antifuchs: "Real Programmers patch the binary code"? 16:13:14 froydnj: I don't patch elc, ever. (: 16:13:54 *tmh* has visions of Xach sitting in a dark room with a computer mumbling "Naggum, search Naggum" over and over. ;-) 16:15:45 "The Xaching" 16:18:16 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:19 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-22-205.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:20:23 antifuchs: well, for example, I have a string that I turn into a list and process it as a list in my macro - should the returned form contain the calls to the split- functions and the original string, or the list, already replaced? 16:20:25 Ia, ia, sub-naggum-aroth. 16:25:49 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:52 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:34 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 16:30:26 ELC is rather messy. 16:30:41 It reads /proc stuff to figure out how many cores a system has. 16:31:18 j0be [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 16:31:18 pbusser: do you know a better way ? 16:31:51 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslec216.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:32:09 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:32:11 fe[nl]ix: sysconf() But according to the source code, it isn't reliable. Although I tried it and at least for my system it correctly reports 4 cores. 16:32:23 According to the ECL source code. 16:33:35 what sysconf option is that ? 16:33:59 Does anyone know what packages comes with a timer.asd? 16:34:02 I don't remember. 16:34:09 It's documented in the ECL source code however. 16:34:57 fe[nl]ix: Is there a gentoo package for cl-muproc? If so, what's its dependencies? 16:35:12 It has a :depends-on (timer), and I don't seem to have that 16:36:22 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-79-193.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:14 syamajala [n=syamajal@173-14-133-149-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:03 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 16:44:31 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:45:21 tcr: no package ATM 16:45:45 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:19 tcr: timer.asd is from Xach's old package 16:46:20 minion: timer 16:46:21 timer: An event scheduling library for SBCL by Zach Beane. http://www.cliki.net/timer 16:46:31 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:51 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:30 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-161-187.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:59 galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-245.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 16:48:26 clop [n=jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:46 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:49:39 that one got merged into sbcl? 16:50:03 jtza8_ [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-114-207.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:50:15 ...and substantially fixed 16:50:20 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@173-14-133-149-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:51:02 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:18 -!- raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:53:39 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:45 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-106.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:45 -!- galaxywatcher_ is now known as galaxywatcher 16:54:49 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has quit [] 16:55:31 jtza8__ [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-55-154.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:55:59 Morning, folks. 16:57:03 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:57:21 bordeaux threads depends on alexandria? 16:57:36 hi gigamonkey 16:59:04 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:13 hello gigamonkey 16:59:16 -!- ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:59:27 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 16:59:41 ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has joined #lisp 17:00:04 kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:12 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:00:31 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.109.237] has joined #lisp 17:00:34 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.109.237] has left #lisp 17:00:38 -!- jtza8_ [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-114-207.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:03:53 tcr: I can sympathize with trying to avoid dependency Hell and didn't see the real benefit of alexandria, but had to download it for something and have actually found it useful. 17:04:00 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-196-95.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:11 tcr: At least you haven't been required to install a test framework, yet. 17:05:31 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:05:52 tmh: please, not another test framework 17:06:06 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:06:19 should I be surprised that (coerce #(1 2 3) '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8))) doesn't work? what's an easy way to write a literal simple-vector of (unsigned-byte 8)? 17:06:42 lukego: (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) 1)? 17:07:17 lukego: i sometimes (defun octet-vector (&rest octets) ...) 17:07:41 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:44 froydnj: Worse than another test framework is when a package you are trying to evaluate/use requires you to install the author's preferred test framework even if you aren't running the tests. 17:08:21 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:51 tmh: let me tell you what's even worse 17:09:00 tmh: this is one of the reasons I just include rt.lisp in my packages and use that for my tests 17:09:07 when a package requires you to install a web serwer 17:09:10 server* 17:09:14 is that actually a common problem? (Except where asdf-install or clbuild treat test system dependencies this way.) 17:09:15 Kenjin_ [n=Kenjin@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 17:09:16 froydnj: Yup. 17:09:21 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@83.240.225.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:41 froydnj: I do that too. :-) I also just copy the 3-4 utils I need from alexandria to a utils.lisp and spare that dependency 17:09:59 pkhuong: thanks! 17:10:31 I know I already asked before, but maybe if I ask three times it will come true :-). does anyone have a way to strace sbcl without crashing it? 17:10:42 what's the discussion place for bordeaux-threads? 17:10:43 or otherwise snoop on system calls e.g. sendmsg in this instance 17:10:46 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:11:02 -!- postamar [n=postamar@let10-doqu2.univ-avignon.fr] has quit [] 17:11:50 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:53 froydnj: Better yet, separate release and development. The release is tested by you and includes nothing related to testing. If someone is interested in the testing/development, they can go to the trouble of getting the development distribution and subsequent dependencies. 17:11:53 milanj [n=milan@93.87.152.62] has joined #lisp 17:12:09 assuming the syscall isn't done directly in assembly routines or anything like that, use LD_PRELOAD to wrap the C function? 17:12:29 TJohn [i=as@118-160-172-107.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:09 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:15 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D0FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:15:58 -!- Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:48 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:18:11 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 17:20:15 tcr: bordeaux-threads-devel@common-lisp.net or ask me 17:20:23 tmh: eh, I don't think that's a good idea 17:20:42 Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:22:28 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:30 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.215.32] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 17:22:35 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.84.121] has left #lisp 17:23:03 konr [n=user@189.96.84.121] has joined #lisp 17:24:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:29:07 froydnj: I think it's a good idea. It acknowledges that the user of a package has different expectations than the developer/contributor. You shouldn't burden the user of a package with having to obtain development dependencies. The user of the package expects it to work as advertised and could care less about developing/testing it. 17:30:05 -!- j0be [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 17:30:37 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-177-156.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:31:20 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:32:01 tmh: maybe. but I have received valuable feedback from people when the testsuite didn't work as advertised on their system--I wouldn't have gotten that feedback if I'd had separate user/devel distributions 17:32:38 tmh: also, it's just good practice: "make sure this thing works before you start using it". there's no reason somebody should have to get a development package to get that guarantee 17:33:47 ln5 [n=ln5@h213n6c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:16 froydnj: "there's no reason somebody should have to get a development package to get that guarantee" that it works is actually my argument. I have an expectation that if I get a release distribution, it will work, I don't need to run the test suite. So, the release is advertised to work, i.e. to have been tested, on specified implementations/platforms. If you are using it outside of the tested systems, you need to get the development 17:35:16 package and test it. 17:35:39 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 17:35:40 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@h213n6c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:36 I'd argue that if you're downloading source code in the first place, you're not a mere user. End users download core files or fasls. 17:36:36 If you want source code, you also want the tests and documentation that go with it. 17:36:38 *tmh* thinks we are in violent agreement, sort-of 17:38:59 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:43:41 lichtblau: I'm usually a mere user and would be happy if the FASLs were distributed, but that doesn't seem to be the usual practice. The usual practice is source code+ADSF. That is fine, I think you can still make the user/developer distinction even with source code+ASDF. 17:44:12 <_3b> tmh: FASLs for which implementation though? 17:44:18 distributing fasls is a ridiculous idea, i mean wtf? who ever does that 17:44:19 fe[nl]ix: Would you subscribe that to gmane? 17:44:49 how ? 17:44:50 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:45:01 _3b: FASLs for the 'supported' implementations. 17:45:20 <_3b> tmh: so you would be happy with for exa 17:45:34 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:41 <_3b> for example libs only supporting sbcl x86-64 1.0.32.37 ? 17:45:42 c|mell: almost every lisp impl does it. SBCL contribs, various Allegro stuff. 17:45:45 tmh: are you really happy with fasls? I thought the best part of Lisp is you can `M-.' any symbol to see how it works 17:45:48 c|mell: No one does it, but if you were being pedandic about your releases, you would make an FASL distribution for the 'supported' platforms. 17:45:59 fe[nl]ix: Just go to gmane.org -> Subscribe and fill out some form. I do it so often and feel bad about it :-) 17:46:22 tmh: next you'll be saying you prefer documentation to sources! 17:46:29 fe[nl]ix: takes 3min 17:46:51 lukego: Heh, in some cases I'd be happy with the FASL, in other cases, not. :-) 17:47:01 lichtblau, i take you point about some of the allegro stuff but where can you get an sbcl fasl from? 17:47:14 <_3b> tmh: that also prevents things like anyone without a mac 'supporting' running on mac 17:47:45 lichtblau: well, sbcl contributs are a special case, since they're distributed with the implementation; it's hard to do fasls in general for SBCL, since compatibility is explicitly broken every release 17:47:58 _3b: Recruit your friend with the mac. ;-) 17:48:27 tmh: or "supporting" allegro. or lispworks. or ecl. or abcl. or... 17:48:28 <_3b> tmh: or just never release anything ... 17:48:29 c|mell: .fasl files in clisp are even platform independent (and perhaps in ABCL, too) 17:48:54 c|mell: So it really depends on the implementation if it makes more or less sense (surprise!) 17:49:17 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:49:23 tcr: I'm not sure about sbcl's compatibility with fasl files, given a minor upgrade to sbcl will give fasl hell 17:49:27 I'm arguing for a certain level of rigor. "I develop and support these implementations/platforms, you can get FASL files for them and have a certain expectation of them working. If you are not on a supported system, get the source code hacker!" 17:49:47 TDT: Where did I talk about SBCL? 17:50:00 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:50:05 tcr: Thought abcl was a typo for sbcl :) 17:50:11 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:50:49 You're kidding...armed bear common lisp. Epic name, confusing as heck though...haha 17:51:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:51:14 Bears are scary enough without arming them. 17:51:32 tmh: Get something out, which is a) polished, b) comes with quality documentation, c) comes with quality test suite, d) is tested on the majority of implementations, and e) does the kind of additional support you're talking of 17:52:19 tcr: done 17:52:29 Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:58 tcr: Yeah, we're talking commercial. But I'm the type of person that sets up ideals for myself always striving for them whether I actually get there or not. I'm not criticizing whats out there, I'm just expressing my ideal. 17:53:11 tmh: The sad state of the current CL open source community is that at the moment b), c), and d) are harder than they could be, not even to talk about e) 17:54:13 tcr: Someday, when I start actually kicking some of my stuff out the door, I'm going to avoid d) for the most part. 17:54:19 fe[nl]ix: Thanks, you'll receive a confirmation mail once the request has been processed. 17:54:22 ? 17:54:43 tcr: I have a couple implementations I'm interested in and a few OS's on VirtualBox, that's what I'll develop to. 17:54:43 fe[nl]ix: The gmane group will then be created after the first mail that is sent to the list after that confirmation mail. 17:54:49 tmh: I know your feelings on that. I wish there was a build server solution that would help facilitate the testing across different implementation 17:55:24 fe[nl]ix: If you get that confirmation mail (it's a manual process, so it takes a few days usually) -- could you please also send a mail to list saying "This mailinglist is now also available via gmane.lisp.foo", so the group is created? 17:55:41 ok 17:55:47 would library files not be a possibility, .so, dll etc. 17:56:23 fe[nl]ix: I'm going to take a courtesy look over bt. Some minor nit I've found is that the -test.asd does not come with a test-op. 17:57:24 TDT: Yeah, a decent box hosting several OS's in VirtualBox could do it. To distribute the work load, we could have a different person responsible for maintaining each implementation/OS. 17:57:36 tcr: it's in b-t.asd 17:57:49 -!- Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:08 tmh: A central solution, hosting solution, for that would be pretty amazing really. If it's volunteer run with donations to keep the hardware going that'd really be kinda nice. 17:58:11 fe[nl]ix: Yes I've seen it, but I first did (load-system :bt-test), then (test-system :bt-test) and it returned NIL and I thought that was it 17:58:37 fe[nl]ix: Ideally you could say :in-order-to (test-op (load-op ...) (test-op ...))) but the last time I tried that it didn't work 17:58:37 tmh: An open source solution, such as something like chroot would also be interesting if that's possible. A lot of planning regardless of the route though 17:58:39 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:59:25 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:59:25 TDT: I don't need a central solution. I'd be plenty satisfied with a local, but off-the-shelf solution. 17:59:42 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 18:00:13 tcr: VirtualBox images that are already setup with implementation/OS combinations? 18:00:22 Those images can get large, though. 18:00:29 tcr: So what you're thinking is a central place that hosts a package of virtual machines for different distributions, and a load server that you'd pass the package to and it'd distribute to the other VMs for processing. 18:00:36 The memory footprint is the hardest part 18:00:53 Even at 256megs, you're looking at 4 stressing out most modern systems 18:01:26 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 18:01:28 You can stop/start the VMs on demand. 18:02:20 True, but then you're left with a launch time..so batching up multipel projects for that one vm would be necessary. For lots of projects that's not too bad. 18:03:39 TDT: I'd be content with something like https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/479513 18:03:47 how do I select the default repl for slime to send bits to with multiple repls up? 18:04:17 KVM VMs can be suspended. It lowers the time to boot it. 18:04:24 no idea, froydnj, you have to consult the source 18:04:30 tcr: Yeah, that would be nice 18:05:25 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 18:06:25 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:06:33 froydnj: There is a buffer that lists them. 18:06:45 fe[nl]ix: How does the fourth item in the defpackage docstring relate to condition-variables.lisp ? 18:07:00 tmh: I think froydnj is using slime-mrepl, and not multiple connections 18:07:13 froydnj: Or did I misunderstand you? 18:07:26 Oh, I misread 18:07:55 has anyone here filed a patent? 18:08:06 actually, slime-list-connections is exactly what I want 18:08:11 Dawgmatix_: yeah 18:08:19 Dwagmatix_: Why do you ask? 18:08:48 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:08:48 I'm late to this, but having to download a gazillon dependencies for a test suite is a turnoff for me when looking for a library. Of course, I am a terrible model for a developer... 18:09:12 incf splittist 18:09:23 i am thinking of filing a patent. wondering if i could do it myself or do i need an attorney. the attorney i spoke to said i would be out ~25k 18:09:32 Dawgmatix_: you need an attorney 18:09:36 no question 18:09:40 tcr: you'd have to ask sellout 18:09:59 fe[nl]ix: Is he on that list? 18:09:59 and I was looking at the actual filing fee - it was 550 for provisional, 850 for non provisional 18:10:11 froydnj: Ok, there's also M-x slime-cycle-connection 18:10:22 -!- ijk1 [n=adb@gp2c4-b96.broadinstitute.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:26 i see dlowe. any estimates on the costs ? 18:10:28 splittist: what compells you to download "a gazillon dependencies for a test suit" ? 18:10:32 tcr: yes 18:10:35 Dawgmatix_: ~25k seems steep, from the things I've read, I thought it was more around ~5-10k. 18:10:39 tcr: You don't want to test the test-system, you want to test :bt. 18:10:52 Dawgmatix_: you will almost certainly need a patent attorney. But why file a patent? In which jurisdictions? How will you defend it? How will you discover infringers? 18:10:54 fe[nl]ix: have you seen some of these test suites? 18:11:17 Dawgmatix_, are you talking about a software patent or a patent on something real? 18:11:37 patent on something real 18:11:37 froydnj: FSVO "some" 18:12:15 splittist - am thinking of pursuing companies to license the patent once i get it 18:12:32 am thinking of just filing in the US for now since thats where i am at 18:12:44 when i worked at broadcom they had a patent lawyer tell us how they wanted us to patent everything we said or did 18:12:46 sellout: I think it's wrong that bt.asd knows about the internal bits of bt-test.asd. It's bt-test.asd that knows that it internally uses lift. bt.asd should just invoke bt-test's test-op. 18:12:56 sellout: (But as said just a minor nit :-)) 18:13:19 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 18:13:26 Dawgmatix_: Why would companies licence it? They know you wouldn't have enough money to sue them. And the information is available for free. 18:13:40 tcr: Ah, that's a good point. As long as from the user's perspective they still do (oos 'test-op :bordeaux-threads) 18:13:58 Dawgmatix_, the idea seems to be to try to skim the edge between overly broad (in which case refile with narrower claims) or too specific (in which case refile with broader claims) 18:14:01 at least in the us lawyers are more than thrilled to sue for a cut of the final pie 18:14:36 tcr: When you say ".asd" that's just shorthand for "the system", you don't mean it should be in a separate file, correct? 18:14:41 sellout: as said, bt.asd should be able to say :in-order-to (test-op (load-op :bt-test) (test-op :bt-test)) but sadly for some reason that escapes that does not work. (At least when I tried it with named-readtables) 18:15:11 i see c|mell. i guess i will speak to other lawyers then to see if i get a better rate 18:15:33 sellout: somone (probably fe[nl]ix) made bt-test its own .asd file 18:15:36 does anyone have a better trick for doing privileged stuff (e.g. binding ports <1024) than my old hack http://fresh.homeunix.net/~luke/misc/repo/slitch/src/root.lisp ? 18:15:39 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:58 tcr: That's a problem with the way asdf's in-order-to works ... it's a known issue, but I don't know how to work around it in this case. 18:16:14 maybe I can legitimately assign myself CAP_NET_ADMIN somehow.. 18:16:23 sellout: well just (oos 'test-op :bt-test) in :perform? 18:16:25 tcr: you're in the bordeaux-threads group now. commit! 18:16:42 :-( I hate you 18:16:50 tcr / fe[nl]ix: Ah, that's not good  that causes asdf-install to download/load the test framework even for users who will never dev b-t. 18:16:51 lukego, you can port forward using your firewall 18:16:53 Nowhere may I play dumb user 18:17:14 I think the proper term is 'mere user'. :-P 18:17:18 c|mell: well it's a small bunch of different things that I want to do 18:17:20 lukego: if you're using a recent distro you can assign CAP_NET_ADMIN to the SBCL executable 18:17:24 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:39 felix: that would be great - how? 18:17:46 lukego: they're called file system capabilities, IIRC 18:17:51 tcr: Yeah, that is probably a good solution. 18:18:06 pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has joined #lisp 18:18:23 tcr: It never occured to me before, but that also allows both :test-op :bt and :test-op :bt-test to work. 18:18:23 lukego: http://www.olafdietsche.de/linux/capability/ 18:18:55 -!- yoonkn_ [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:56 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has quit ["leaving"] 18:19:01 sellout: I'll do it. 18:19:01 Dawgmatix_: at a pinch you could do the provisional yourself to buy some time to investigate things. But if you're just going to licence you don't need to patent (and therefore disclose) - you just have to keep it a trade secret. 18:19:14 *sellout* likes this delegation thing. 18:19:19 postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-72-219.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:19:28 Dawgmatix_: But remember, IANYL! (: 18:19:48 :) 18:20:11 i would be damned if there was a lawyer hanging around in #lisp 18:22:06 Dawgmatix_: they walk among us ! 18:22:20 *splittist* is not quite sure how to parse Dawgmatix_' last comment... 18:22:21 :) 18:22:39 No garlic, please 18:22:44 I know of instances where guys have patented things without a lawyer. The approach seems to be to make the application very detailed and confusing so the patent review doesn't really understand it. 18:22:58 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-252-200.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:12 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:23:19 splittist that was merely an exclamation about a low likelihood of having a lawyer on #lisp 18:24:16 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:24:52 Before I propose engineering work for some mechanical device, I'll read the patent if there is one. The majority of patents I read for mechanical devices describe devices that will never perform the function they are patented for. 18:25:05 fe[nl]ix: when you write "FSVO \"some\"", does it include the #\S inside "FSVO"? 18:25:19 sellout: Can you answer my other question? 18:25:33 :) @ tmh 18:25:40 sellout: "How does the fourth item in the defpackage docstring relate to condition-variables.lisp ?" 18:26:02 felix: hm I didn't find any actually working way to manipulate capabilities on files/processes on debian 18:26:14 Dawgmatix_: I'm not suggesting yours is one of those. ;-) But, you could help yourself out by looking up patents on devices similar to yours. 18:26:46 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has left #lisp 18:26:52 yeah already been doing some of that tmh 18:27:03 fe[nl]ix / sellout: Do you mind if I get rid of the -system package? 18:27:19 tcr: go ahead 18:27:28 tcr: that's fine. 18:27:29 lukego: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=libcap 18:27:35 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:27:44 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:27:47 felix: yeah it installs some userspace tools that fail with bad error messages :-\ 18:27:53 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:27:54 'morning 18:28:10 tcr: I'm not sure what you're asking ... point 4 explains why condition-variables.lisp exists. 18:28:45 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:28:48 sellout: Uh I read it totally the other way around 18:28:49 lukego: have you tried them all ? debian seems to have multiple implementations/forks: libcap-bin, libcap-ng-utils, libcap2-bin 18:29:07 sellout: Like it's saying that it's not possible to define condition variables with the rest of bt 18:29:49 tried the two (libcap{,2}-bin) that I have on lenny 18:30:04 tcr: It's saying that CLIM-SYS (which BT was originally modeled after) doesn't allow for condition-variables, so this is one way we differ from CLIM-SYS. 18:31:03 tcr: Those 4 points are meant to explain how BT is different from CLIM-SYS. At this point, there are certainly _more_ differences. That list was really just a starting point. 18:31:26 tcr: Feel free to reword for clarity. 18:31:35 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.15.200] has joined #lisp 18:31:44 sellout: Oh ok so it's "using the other operations that are specified [in CLIM-SYS]" ? 18:31:53 tcr: Correct. 18:32:05 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:34:25 Aha! I just had an epiphany about UTF-8 encoding. Very clever Mr. Thompson. 18:35:22 It's a feature that you can determine from the first byte of a character's encoding how many bytes the total encoding is going to be. Nice. 18:36:09 hey gigamonkey - any more thoughts/progress on your 'Growing Programmers' book? 18:36:16 indeed 18:37:42 splittist: I've been thinking about it and setting up some very preliminary meetings with friends of mine who know about the field or know people in the field. 18:38:05 What is the premise of the book? 18:38:10 I'm also trying to find books similar to the one I want to write in order to try and find an agent. 18:38:11 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.212.193] has joined #lisp 18:38:27 tmh: The history (and present) of computer programming for kids. 18:39:09 Look at things like Logo, Smalltalk, and BASIC, and more modern environments like Scratch, and see what if anything is good/important/interesting about them. 18:39:13 Ah, I would buy that. I'm very interested in teaching computer programming to my kids and also volunteering to teach an introductory course for middle/high school age kids. 18:39:24 gigamonkey: LOGO! \o/ :D 18:39:27 gigamonkey: the agent to to secure a distribution deal and an advance? 18:39:29 That book would be a good primer 18:39:34 *madnificent* may still have that somewhere 18:39:42 gigamonkey: I think there may be some other cute properties, such as the ability to resync with a stream if your position is unknown (maybe in the middle of a character). 18:39:44 splittist: yeah, to find, and deal with, a publisher. 18:40:23 gigamonkey: you were looking at disintermediating the publishing thing earlier - moved away from that? 18:40:27 gigamonkey: Before Scratch, was there anything for kids in squeak? 18:40:40 And more generally--if you have a good agent--to help you with our overall writing career: help with crafting your proposals, brainstorming ideas, etc. 18:41:02 *tmh* seems to recall some educational apps in squeak. 18:41:24 splittist: I was thinking about that for something about Lisp where I figure there's not much a publisher could do to promote the book to the appropriate people beyond what I could do myself. 18:41:30 tmh: well, eToys. 18:41:54 gigamonkey: well, OK. I worked some lit agents in the past and was not hugely impressed at the value added. But you need them to get into the publishers. Question is - what do the publishers bring to the table? Window display on Amazon? 18:42:15 s/worked some/worked with some/ 18:42:22 Depends on the publisher I suspect. 18:42:50 splittist: I assume you're excluding John Hodgman from the "not hugely impressed" list? ;) 18:42:53 -!- Ri-|away is now known as Ri- 18:43:07 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:43:17 splittist: Yes, publishers are supposed to market the book to sellers, such as Barnes and Noble. 18:43:20 gigamonkey: Thanks. I've been struggling with how to teach programming concepts in a language agnostic way. A book like yours would be a nice reference. 18:43:40 Some of the mainstream (i.e. not tech) publishers do actually promote books in ways that might reach people beyond I could reach with my blog and IRC presence. 18:44:06 tmh: Language-agnostic?! This is #lisp, not #everyone's-a-winner 18:44:21 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:44:29 splittist: All the books you see on front tables in bookstores have been placed there by publishers that are paying for the space. 18:44:48 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:44:57 reb: Indeed. Even Apress managed to get the book into B&N. 18:45:08 reb: yes, I know. But I ask myself - if publishers are so smart how come they ain't rich? 18:45:16 sellout: We must transcend languages. There are no languages, only ideas. 18:45:23 ?? 18:45:26 there are languages 18:45:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.152.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:44 Placement in B&N and Borders is important, given the percantage they have of the market. 18:45:44 sellout: ;-) 18:45:52 splittist: because it's a crappy business? 18:46:35 reb: there's push, and there's pull 18:47:04 splittist: The dirty truth is that there's never been much money in books. The relatively recent consolidation of book publishers into "media companies" hasn't changed matters. 18:47:37 splittist: eh? I don't think you can get your book into B&N and Borders unless you're going through a "real" publisher. No matter how well it's selling on Amazon via some P.O.D. scheme. 18:47:46 That may change. Or I could be wrong. 18:47:58 splittist: The trick is to write a book on Lisp, and then turn it into a movie. That's where the serious money is. 18:48:30 I may not be typical, but I haven't been in a chain bookstore in years. I either order from Amazon(mostly) or browse used book stores. 18:49:07 Publishers these days produce bazillions of titles in the hope that a small number will become mega-sellers. They do not market most books, choosing to spend their money on a few titles for which they have paid very large advances. 18:49:48 reb: yes. If you see your business as moving blocks of dead tree into large boxes on Main Street on a sale and return basis, a power law governs sales of these blocks, and 'nobody knows anything', then a consistent return on capital seems an impossibility. 18:50:10 reb: It depends on where you are -- if you are in a place where book-sellers have the right to return unsold copies ... 18:50:20 reb: Though I did read something about how the publishers are also constantly surprised about which books do well and which poorly. 18:50:26 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-199-92.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:50:40 Presumably a big publisher, discovering a surprise hit, would be able to spring into some kind of action to then promote it, etc. 18:50:54 'big', 'spring', ... 18:50:56 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-pwlfwjvymjuramte] has joined #lisp 18:51:09 splittist: well, there's that. 18:51:55 But they would have the resources to spend money to make money. As opposed to a smaller outfit which would just enjoy the success but not necessarily be able to take any advantage of it. 18:52:50 Yes, they seem unable to predict which books will do well. The internet and media generally has also increased the variance of sales. A mention on Oprah completely changes the sales profile of a book. 18:52:54 chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has joined #lisp 18:53:49 if I have a series of classes separate in files, the proper way to use one of those classes is to do (load "class.lisp"), right? 18:54:10 chiiph: No. 18:54:25 chiiph: I'm at a loss as to how you would use anything without loading it. 18:54:29 chiiph: well, you probably want to look at something like ASDF. And ask yourself why you have them in separate files to begin with. 18:54:59 Oh, and you'll also probably want to compile your files before you load them (though that's not required). 18:55:11 gigamonkey: well, just because it's cleaner, and more organized... 18:55:25 I guess you could open the file in an editor and transcribe them to the REPL. That's slightly inefficient and error-prone, though. 18:55:28 chiiph: I wrote a little bit about how I organize my projects, let me get the link... 18:55:32 I just wanted to know how's the lisp way to organize the code... 18:55:35 minion, tell chiiph about xach-asdf 18:55:36 chiiph: please look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 18:55:38 sellout: Bah, why does it seem that an :perform (test-op :after ...) is actually run at the very first in the plan 18:56:11 Xach: thanks 18:56:28 tcr: Good question. ASDF can be weird with that stuff. I'd have to look at it to figure it out. 18:56:46 using (load "...") obviosly works... but, well... I want to do it right :) 18:57:32 The Right Way, these days, is to use ASDF. 18:57:49 oks... I'll look into that... 18:58:18 And you'll have to find your own happy medium between too many little files and too few monolithic files. 18:58:46 But I find that putting a bunch of related classes and generic functions in one file tends to work well. 18:58:55 gigamonkey: I'm confortable with the "one class per file" strategy... 18:59:08 gigamonkey: oh yes... related classes yes, but this isn't the case... 18:59:14 chiiph: That sounds like a relic from some other system. 18:59:33 Xach: well... what's wrong with that approach? 18:59:37 Fair enough. But where do you put generic functions? And methods that specialize on more than one class (or on none, using EQL specializers)? 18:59:55 chiiph: I don't find my CL tends to be class-centric, so focusing on classes as an organizing axis isn't something I'd use. 19:01:07 gigamonkey: well, that happened... and I didn't know what to do really... I was hoping there was a way to "include" files into other files... 19:01:07 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:01:58 gigamonkey: I slap all me generic functions in a generic.lisp file. Otherwise I send hours trying to determine the best place for them. 19:02:19 -!- ams is now known as foo`` 19:02:36 -!- foo`` is now known as ams-foo 19:02:45 balooga: interface.lisp and implementation.lisp makes sense sometimes 19:02:54 balooga: and how do you say "include generic.lisp because I'm going to implement some of them"? 19:03:13 lichtblau: ping 19:03:59 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-77.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:42 chiiph: ASDF 19:05:13 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.45.204] has joined #lisp 19:05:13 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:05:44 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:04 minion: logs 19:06:05 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 19:06:13 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 19:06:44 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:06:46 balooga: ok... 19:06:49 tcr: I like that. interface/implementation. 19:06:49 -!- gigamonkey` is now known as gigamonkey 19:07:03 thanks everyone... I'll have a look at ASDF... 19:07:11 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:08:00 sellout: I'm too stupid for this asdf hackery 19:08:29 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:45 *splittist* is secretly hoping Xach's next full-text-search project will be the #lisp logs... 19:08:59 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:09:22 Lispworks 6.0 now supports asdf within the IDE. 19:09:56 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-199-92.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:03 balooga: CCL kind of does, too. 19:11:13 slime does too 19:14:20 how fucking embarrasing... I wrote (op (eql 'asdf:test-op)) 19:16:59 heh 19:18:21 unicode [n=user@95.214.53.120] has joined #lisp 19:18:36 Turning FlySpell mode on for the ERC buffer is mildly entertaining. 19:19:47 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:24:35 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:39 dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 19:26:51 Now I have to figure how to checkout bt so to push to it 19:29:23 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:29:56 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has quit ["Client Quit"] 19:29:56 -!- gibsonf1 [n=user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:29:59 gibsonf1 [n=user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:26 minion: Chant 19:30:27 MORE INDEED 19:31:17 how can i arrange mcclim listener and climacs to show info about the function arguments in status bar, right now, it seems like it gets that the function is defined, highlights it, but for the foo function it shows something like "(FOO)" instead of "foo &key arg1 (arg2 arg2-val) arg3". 19:33:16 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.160] has joined #lisp 19:33:18 -!- alxconn [n=alxconn@c-24-15-46-226.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:34:43 i like the listener, but i can't find any tutorial or documentation aiming to set it up for better programmer use, i can't even find a right click menu for climacs despite the fact that there is a screensaver showing the right click menu 19:34:49 Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:35:00 kenanb: make sure Swank is ASDF-loadable when you load Climacs. 19:35:18 ups, i haven't even install swank :) 19:35:28 -!- Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:59 ok, is it for providing the argument lists? 19:36:14 Alternatively, go into mcclim/Drei/lisp-syntax-swank.lisp and change the few (simple) definitions to not call Swank functions. 19:37:07 ok, also, is it possible to use the listener or open even a simple repl window in a buffer in climacs 19:37:35 No, but using a scratch buffer has some benefits. 19:37:53 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-152-185-30.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:55 Climacs buffers can contain arbitrary objects, not just characters, so it's somewhat more capable than a standard REPL. 19:38:22 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-139-221-245.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:01 but i couldn't even find a way to change the scratch buffer mode to lisp mode, probably that is because of swank 19:39:28 The command is M-x Set Syntax Lisp. 19:39:57 Climacs uses "syntax" where Emacs uses "mode" and "mode" where Emacs uses "minor mode". 19:41:21 so then can i eval commands in a scratch buffer ca? 19:41:30 ca/calling c-c c-c 19:41:55 Yeah, but use the prefix command to insert the result (IIRC), so it would be C-u C-c C-c. 19:42:07 Maybe it's C-u C-x C-e. 19:42:56 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.15.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:23 Athas: ok, i may solve some of my other questions after these settings, so it would be better first trying them before asking everything, thanks so much:) 19:45:51 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-9-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:45:52 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:45:54 Note that the literal object you get can be used in expressions too. 19:46:33 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:55:24 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-drkdozxcqhtkheex] has joined #lisp 19:55:28 tcr: here 19:56:39 tcr: rather: here? 19:59:04 -!- newfurniturey [n=darkcida@74.93.195.210] has quit [] 20:03:36 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.215.32] has joined #lisp 20:03:51 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-177-156.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:04:15 -!- Krystof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ABCL 0.18.0, Hunchentoot 1.1.0, cl-gtk2 0.1.1 20:07:28 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.53.120] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:08:09 unicode [n=user@95.214.53.120] has joined #lisp 20:08:34 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-245.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 20:10:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A7BA4.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:11:33 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-drkdozxcqhtkheex] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 20:16:19 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 20:16:19 -!- Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:45 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-sbcvxzpmkfsgyldp] has joined #lisp 20:19:28 -!- jtza8__ [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-55-154.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Sleeping"] 20:21:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:50 ok, now i see that climacs can't see my meta key, the strange thing is it seems to work normally except climacs 20:22:04 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-22-205.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 20:25:23 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225053063.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:48 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 20:29:18 marioxcc` [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 20:29:29 wow slime's arglist handling on APPLY is a nice touch :) 20:29:44 *froydnj* chokes on seeing ccl's init-nclosure 20:30:17 froydnj: yeah, nice huh? 20:30:34 I love the magic numbers 20:31:51 *froydnj* returns to being blissfully ignorant of ccl internals 20:33:08 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:21 newfurniturey [n=darkcida@74.93.195.210] has joined #lisp 20:33:26 billitch_ [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:28 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:33:28 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 20:33:59 gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:40 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:49 wait, is that actually hand-assembling a sequence of instructions? 20:39:08 Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:39:51 *Xach* figures he can get phrase search working with less than 10MB of extra memory 20:39:52 -!- marioxcc` [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:39:52 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:19 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 20:40:22 Krystof: yes, that's right. 20:40:42 -!- Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:11 it's writing the closure function, which calls a runtime routine (.SPcall_closure) 20:42:18 postamar_ [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-72-219.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:42:27 -!- postamar_ [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-72-219.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:42:58 closed-over ("inherited") variables appear as extra arguments to the function. 20:43:37 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@pool-71-247-105-237.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:14 what's the best way to handle assigning two variables in a let* from a function that returns (values var1 var2)? 20:44:39 chiiph: multiple-value-bind or (setf (values x y) ...) 20:44:54 chiiph: there are a few different options. you can use (multiple-value-bind (var1 var2) (function-returning-2-values ...) ...something that uses var1 var2...) 20:45:09 chiiph: or what pkhuong said, after introducing x and y as variables somehow. 20:45:43 pkhuong: hmmm so can I put multiple-value-bind in the place where the var name should be in a let*? 20:45:54 chiiph: no. 20:46:02 chiiph: LET and LET* don't support binding multiple values. 20:46:20 Xach: oh... I see... 20:46:29 so I guess I should do the binding before the let... 20:48:01 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d8140ff.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:47 hmmm why multiple-value-bind instead of multiple-value-setq? 20:49:07 One binds, the other sets. 20:49:51 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-2-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:50:00 if I'm dealing with objects, I should bind instead of set... right? 20:50:49 chiiph: that doesn't make much sense. 20:50:54 ups... nvm... I understand now 20:50:56 :D 20:51:10 yeah, I know now... hehe 20:52:59 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:16 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.160] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:55:09 tcr: ping 20:59:10 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.160] has joined #lisp 20:59:46 pr [n=pr@p579CABAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:58 -!- postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-72-219.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:07 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:30 any idea why alt key of my keyboard doesn't work in climacs? 21:00:37 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:37 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 21:01:23 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-248-116.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 21:01:42 fe[nl]ix, are you there? 21:02:01 yes 21:02:35 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d819530.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:38 in IOLIB.OS:DELETE-FILES the call IOLIB.OS:WALK-DIRECTORY gets a 3 parameter lambda 21:02:45 doesn't it need a 4 parameter one? 21:03:22 the keyboard is a turkish q layout keyboard and the keymap is set properly so it works in the system in general without a problem but in climacs (maybe in all clim apps, i don't know how can i test it in other apps) it does nothing, and alt-gr doesn't work as an alternative, so i'm stuck 21:04:15 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:07:55 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:09:19 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:40 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:09:46 levente_meszaros: thanks, committed :) 21:09:51 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 21:10:29 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:10:35 fe[nl]ix, thanks, huh lots of stuff has been committed... 21:11:40 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:12:14 levente_meszaros: btw, the main repo is now at http://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib 21:14:47 anybody knows why is C-c C-u getting shadowed in slime-repl-mode ? 21:15:53 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:23 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@79.102.10.236] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:26 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f6642ee-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 21:18:48 ehu: I'm here now 21:19:07 fe[nl]ix: due to slime-editing 21:19:08 hi. 21:19:30 tcr: I'm hoping to have fixed the gray stream issues on abcl trunk. 21:19:48 tcr: any idea how to fix this ? almost the entire slime-repl-mode-map is shadowed 21:19:53 could you have another go one of these days or tell me how to test it myself? 21:20:49 ehu: I don't have time; you get rid of the make-slime-output-stream in swank-abcl.lisp, and adapt swank-loader.lisp to make it also compile&load swank-gray.lisp on ABCL. 21:21:10 while i load clouseau, it gives an error: these swank interfaces are unimplemented : (command-line-args disassemble-frame dup exec-image make-fd-stream sldb-break-at-start sldb-break-on-return socket-fd) should i use accept and not annoy about it or does it mean it will be a headache using it if i compile ins of this error 21:21:20 ins/inspite of 21:21:30 tcr: ok. 21:21:39 fe[nl]ix: Not out of my head; There's was some changeset related to the general keybinding setup in the last two months, perhaps that introduced this behaviour 21:21:59 that's where you got the errors already? or did you have to do something extra? 21:22:03 (like run it)? 21:22:06 francogrex [n=user@183.140-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:22:24 ehu: Just try to use Slime, iirc, it resulted in errors during loading 21:22:34 ok. thanks 21:22:56 ehu: If there are more questions, consult swank-sbcl.lisp; or prod easyE to do it 21:23:00 i have nothing extra, it occured while asdf loading 21:23:16 tcr: will do. 21:23:52 ehu: there's some further clos/mop related mess in swank-abcl.lisp that would be nice to get rid of 21:24:18 -!- xpololz [n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:24:32 -!- tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:33 tcr: that's all part of the plan, but alas it'll have to be all in due time. 21:24:41 I too am a bit short on it. 21:24:44 ehu: Also, personally, I don't think it's too bad if swank-abcl.lisp is updated to only support the latest release -- reducing reader conditionalization crap 21:24:48 -!- Kenjin_ [n=Kenjin@83.240.225.146] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 21:25:04 ok. that's probably the best, yes. 21:25:16 we have too much progress to support all old junk 21:25:21 ABCL is so young that it doesn't hurt imho 21:26:02 ehu: send patches to easyE, he's got the commits bit 21:26:50 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:26:55 tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 21:27:03 kenanb: You can acccept that 21:27:48 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f757c4a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:08 -!- lundis [n=lundis@79-133-9-108.bredband.aland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:41 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.53.120] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:48 fe[nl]ix: There's also the thread about slime-repl-kill-input; you can reply there and say that more keybindings are affected 21:29:02 -!- chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:25 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.123] has joined #lisp 21:33:12 unicode [n=user@95.214.90.82] has joined #lisp 21:35:15 -!- ams-foo [n=ams@94.246.125.191] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:36:42 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.155] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:37:27 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:38:19 tcr: there's only likely: the initial one 21:38:45 "New minor mode for use in the REPL.", on 2009-11-30 21:39:12 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:28 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:41:42 -!- Ri- is now known as Ri-|away 21:42:57 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:08 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 21:45:18 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has joined #lisp 21:45:58 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.160] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:42 fe[nl]ix: I think BT should try to use WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX rather than trying to replicate its behaviour 21:47:25 fe[nl]ix: At the moment, each MAKE-THREAD in BT will accompany the additional consing of a new readtable and pprint-dispatch-table object 21:49:33 Oh it's optional behaviour, ok I feel better :-) 21:50:10 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA997.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:43 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 21:50:45 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:00 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-nqkvqqokcscwbyku] has quit ["heuristics ftw"] 21:51:45 saikatc [n=saikatc@208.90.214.117] has joined #lisp 21:51:59 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:54:09 -!- francogrex [n=user@183.140-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:54:41 rpg [n=rpg@fw.bryant.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:56 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:55:56 If I trace a function foo in SBCL, should I expect trace output from (apply 'foo args) ? 21:56:43 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-108-186.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:57:34 oh, never mind --- I see --- someone's caching the function definition.... 21:58:27 saikatc_ [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:06 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:18 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:46 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 22:07:12 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 22:07:21 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 22:07:45 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.90.82] has quit ["leaving"] 22:07:46 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:08:50 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:09:24 When you find yourself repeatedly typing in little 1 line utility functions at the REPL, it's time to put them in a file. 22:10:37 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:42 Every time I start a new slime session, I'll gradually type each in as I need them, telling myself that next time I'll put them in a file. Then, I leave the lisp image open for days so I don't have to type them or put them in a file. Then, I have to close the image and when I open it again, I'm like, crap. 22:11:16 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:49 tmh: M-x (slime-scratch) 22:13:57 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.bryant.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:15:34 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:55 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:18:20 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:52 francogrex [n=user@183.140-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:20:06 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-248-116.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:20:50 how do you see the future of common lisp in 10 years from now? 22:21:23 I expect it'll be just about the same as it is now. :) 22:21:42 why? 22:21:49 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@208.90.214.117] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:49 -!- saikatc_ is now known as saikatc 22:21:53 Because it works 22:22:08 Look 10 years ago at other programming languages 22:22:17 DocView is nice. 22:22:18 it works with the infrastructure we have now, but in 10 years? 22:22:32 And compare to 20 years ago 22:22:46 For those that existed 20 years ago, many did not change much to 10 years ago 22:22:57 unicode [n=user@95.214.90.82] has joined #lisp 22:23:02 change in what way? syntax? 22:23:18 Take C: it has a new standard, C99. It's hardly different from C89. 22:23:21 What is different in the infrastructure now from 10 years ago that changes how we use lisp? 22:23:48 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.90.82] has left #lisp 22:24:28 ssh tunnels, commonplace remote file editing, reliable debuggers and object inspection in emacs. 22:24:36 so if you cannot preduct change over a period of 10 years (debatable) how about 50 yrs from now? 22:24:50 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 22:25:43 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:26:02 it will have several more web frameworks with extreme weather event-inspired names 22:26:02 -!- Edico_ [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:26:14 magic parallelizm 22:26:18 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-sbcvxzpmkfsgyldp] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 22:26:28 francogrex: in 50 years we will be running lisp on our flying cars and jet boots 22:26:38 quantum lisp 22:26:46 (which will all work underground, as the surface of the planet will be uninhabitable) 22:26:48 "what do you think you're doing, dave?" 22:27:15 that was 9 years ago 22:27:18 keep up 22:27:37 Krystof: Have you seen THX 1138? 22:27:40 no 22:27:58 I'd just like to say that modern telecoms has _just about_ caught up with Inspector Gadget 22:28:27 What seems a bit odd to me is that it seems like we've just about run out of Futuristic Sci-Fi predictions 22:28:43 really? 22:28:51 Maybe I just haven't been reading the right books 22:28:58 did you read about singularity 22:29:10 What's been newly predicted in the last few years? 22:29:29 I think we've run out of good ones... seems that most are about our self inflicted doom. 22:29:30 It's dystopian movie set in an underground city. First full length film by George Lucas. It's actually pretty good. 22:29:35 We've been busy making a lot of the old scifi tech come true (for good and bad) 22:30:02 like cheap, unlimited energy? Let me know when we're there on that one 22:30:15 a space elevator? Looking forward to it 22:30:20 you're all assuming that computers and computer/architectures are gonna be the same/similar in 50 years as to what they are now 22:30:27 Mr. Fusion! 22:30:28 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:30:36 Krystof: Well, that second one is being worked on seriously. 22:31:01 so is the first! 22:31:15 it's just as science fictional as it was 20 years ago, unfortunately 22:31:16 francogrex: Here's the problem -> Intellectual and Infrastructural Inertia. 22:31:23 ams [n=ams@94.246.125.191] has joined #lisp 22:31:23 We haven't *achieved* all the scifi tech from the 70s, but where's the new "out there" predictions that weren't even conceivable back then? 22:31:43 (An acceptable answer is: "you idiot look over there") 22:31:50 Swarm robot armers. 22:31:53 *armies* 22:32:08 how can i get the current clients ip address in hunchentoot? 22:32:28 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 22:32:30 foom: I don't think there was much that wasn't conceivable back then 22:32:49 that is, I think the science fiction golden age made plenty of near, medium and long-term future 22:33:09 I guess what you're saying is that we haven't had a scientific revolution since 1938 or thereabouts 22:33:09 ams: what version ? 22:33:13 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-141-202.adslplus.ch] has left #lisp 22:33:18 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-141-202.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 22:33:18 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-141-202.adslplus.ch] has left #lisp 22:33:21 maybe 196x (whenever the transistor was) 22:33:38 I think those only seem like revolutions in hindsight. 22:33:46 fe[nl]ix: svn 22:33:48 Some would say we had one in the 90's 22:33:49 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-141-202.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 22:34:02 We're on the cusp of the *nano* revolution. 22:34:11 What about genetics? 22:34:11 Or maybe the *bio* revolution. 22:34:14 tmh: I'm fairly sure that you didn't need much hindsight to see splitting the atom as a scientific/technological revolution 22:34:21 at most 7 years 22:35:01 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:35:01 I find it believable that e.g. google engineers are living the future of programming. thousands of machines, petabytes of data, machine learning, etc. 22:35:12 Krystof: you just gave an example that contradicts what you said earlier 22:35:33 excellent! How so? 22:35:42 Krystof: How did splitting the atom change the average joe's life, other than worrying about the apocalypse? Technological revolutions are things like the Model T. 22:35:54 splitting the attom was not conceiavable 10-20 years before it happened 22:36:01 Sure it was 22:36:03 yes it was 22:36:03 lukego: and c++ / java. that's pretty dystopian 22:36:19 The cotton gin. 22:36:22 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 22:37:09 tmh: immediately, mostly by reading science fiction stories including inventive use of the new technology as part of the plot 22:37:24 The computer, ubiquitous communication (aka cellphone and internet) certainly has had huge cultural effects. 22:37:59 doesn't really pertain to programming so much, but seriously I am living in the sci-fi future just lately (iphone, 24/7 internet and gps, google maps to navigate around the street, etc) 22:38:03 I'm saying that we don't have qualitatively different future tech ideas in science fiction because we don't have a qualitatively different scientific and technological environment 22:38:04 But it was basically a foregone conclusion that that'd happen from a looong time ago 22:38:07 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 22:38:21 foom: right, as in Inspector Gadget 22:39:38 fe[nl]ix: HUNCHENTOOT:REMOTE-ADDR* does what i want 22:39:45 ams: remote-addr* 22:39:56 what the cute one said. 22:40:01 and I will have to own up and say that I'm not really up to date with the latest genetics / biotech (though my outsider's impression is that it's not really operating at a difference in kind: mostly at a difference in efficiency -- which can be cool too; like the Model T) 22:40:27 anyway, clearly the future is uploading copies of ourselves into the cloud and playing corewars against each other 22:40:38 btw in random weirdo language news, a small Erlang ads-in-flash-games startup called Mochi Media in san francisco just got bought up for $80M 22:41:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:43:59 does thsi make sense: (and (+ 2 3) (+ 7 3) (+ 11 12)) versus (or (+ 2 3) (+ 7 3) (+ 11 12)) 22:44:38 Neither 22:44:39 lukego: bah, that's like 50 22:44:58 francogrex why are you using AND and OR like this? 22:45:01 and you'd have had to live in San Francisco 22:45:01 not saying it's wrong just very odd 22:45:05 Krystof: yeah and frankly only 10% of a respectable pricetag judging by google/apple's latest buys 22:45:05 that would be good news for _3b 22:45:29 the needs to get his CL ads-in-flash-games going quick# 22:45:33 the/he 22:45:38 lukego: clearly they should have used Objective C 22:45:45 I had lunch with those guys on a visit to SF once, they were cool, hope they are happy about the result :) 22:45:55 soupdragon: i was just randmly typing and i happned to type that, weird behavior though? 22:46:12 what's weird about it 22:46:33 and evaluates the last, or evaluetes the first 22:46:41 lukego: your history of talking to people whose startups get acquired is good. 22:46:53 you should talk to yourself more often 22:47:04 hehe we will all be wanting to talk to lukego 22:47:16 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["server reboot"] 22:47:17 wait I need a startup first 22:47:43 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:55 Krystof: glad to provide that service. it was a nice place, and they paid - probably a factor. :) 22:48:08 soupdragon: it's supposed to do just that, but I find the idea weird 22:48:14 ok 22:48:38 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:49 so my list of "software that I like" is getting quite short now that I crossed iptables / netfilter off it 22:49:14 are you finally coming to the realization that the sysadmin mantra is correct? (: 22:49:32 sysadmin mantra? 22:49:48 hate everything you didn't write? 22:49:51 all software sucks, all hardware sucks 22:50:09 ah that makes sense D: 22:50:17 ams: s/ everything you didn't write// 22:50:36 i liked my lusers. 22:51:13 night (: 22:52:54 getting bored here 22:53:13 Krystof: btw sbcl warnings aren't bothering me at all, I'm just writing warning-free code. it may have always been the "this wasn't warning 5 minutes ago in CMUCL" factor that bugged me. 22:53:58 \o/ 22:54:27 the sweet, sweet smell of VICTORY 22:54:45 what victory? 22:55:42 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:56:19 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:01 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225053063.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:59:56 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11525.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 23:03:38 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 23:04:08 Good morning! 23:04:32 http://code.google.com/codejam/ you probbaly know this 23:04:39 morning 23:04:54 hi plage 23:08:27 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:08:36 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:12 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-141-202.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:10:47 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:15:50 -!- francogrex [n=user@183.140-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:57 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-152-108.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 23:17:22 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:55 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 23:20:01 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 23:22:34 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.212.193] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:26:29 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:27:37 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11525.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:47 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 23:27:54 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 23:31:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:35:26 *Xach* has victory over phrase searches 23:37:13 francogrex: And he beat the nearest competitor by a factor of two. Nobody was even close. 23:40:12 -!- Ri-|away is now known as Ri- 23:42:30 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:42:35 -!- marioxcc is now known as mairoxcc-AFK 23:42:56 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-247-105-237.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:45:31 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f6642ee-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 23:47:38 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:35 -!- davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:05 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:54:53 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 23:54:53 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229081206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:56:20 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:54 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-77.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:09 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-77.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp