00:00:18 *_3b* wants graph based + tagged storage for code, instead of filesystems :p 00:00:32 _3b`, instead of files even, maybe? 00:00:43 <_3b> implementation detail :p 00:00:51 "tag this chunk of code as foo. it's related to bar as baz" 00:02:37 anyhoo, a query like "perl larry wall xml -braindead" takes around 0.001 seconds 00:02:39 then you can piece code together into apps, Minority Report-style. 00:03:03 that's certainly quick. how does it scale upwards? what's the complexity? 00:05:18 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:05:25 tic: blergh, "Minority Report-style"... you mean that after seeing it I'll scream "I want my DOS 1.0 and 64kB of RAM"? 00:05:49 p_l, dunno, I 00:05:54 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-12-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:05:58 I'm just thinking of the swooshiness. web-4.0, you know. 00:06:21 *p_l* considers Minority Report to showcase one of the worst UIs since Star Trek {TNG,DS9,Voyager} 00:07:14 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:07:17 at least ST finally hung a lampshade on how awful LCARS is 00:07:43 jsoft_ [n=user@ip-118-90-5-246.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:08:47 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:08:52 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:01 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:09:29 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@ip-118-90-5-246.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:34 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:15 kernoops [n=kernoops@unaffiliated/kernoops] has joined #lisp 00:14:11 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:14:56 (doesn't stop people from trying to make it into an interface for PCs...) 00:15:10 tic: it's about 700 bytes per unique term. and it doesn't support things like phrases, where terms have to be consecutive for a document to match. but i'm willing to do without that for now. 00:15:52 p_l: hehe! 00:15:56 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B74B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:16:11 indeedy 00:16:37 Xach, sure, sure. 00:17:26 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 00:22:35 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:04 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:23:18 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-53-170.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:46 <_3b> nah, LCARS is a great interface... you can finish any task, no matter how complex, in less than the length of the shot you are in 00:24:28 -!- kernoops [n=kernoops@unaffiliated/kernoops] has left #lisp 00:26:30 _3b: haha 00:26:32 thats true 00:27:11 all you have to do is invert or rotate the polarity of the shield and the problem is solved 00:27:19 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:32 also known as "Bullshitting universe so it does your work" 00:27:37 *the universe 00:28:17 Why wouldn't looping through packages and setf-ing all docstrings to nil change the size of a dumped core at all? 00:28:21 (in sbcl) 00:28:29 _3b: anyway, LCARS' designers never worked with touch panels when they thought that piece of shit up ;-) 00:29:28 <_3b> malsyned: possibly they are stored somewhere that doesn't get GC'd? 00:29:37 <_3b> malsyned: isn't there a build options for that though? 00:29:57 _3b I believe there is, yeah. I was just trying different things. 00:30:26 _3b, plus, that doesn't strip docstrings from code that I write. 00:31:41 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:14 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:35:27 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:08 -!- Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:15 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:56 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:49:03 hi, in wath library is the with-timeout macro? 00:49:29 marioxcc: where did you see that ? 00:50:18 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 00:50:59 fe[nl]ix: I don't remember, that is why i'm asking 00:51:59 good night 00:52:29 bye 00:52:36 -!- serichsen [n=user@g227194027.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Oo."] 00:52:48 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:53:06 marioxcc: trivial-timeout and bordeaux-threads contain such a macro 00:53:46 thanks 00:55:09 is it just me 00:55:24 or are 2/3 of CL libraries pretty much designed to have bits ripped out and incorporated directly 00:55:32 rather than actually being used via asdf and etc 00:56:56 *_3b* uses libs as packaged 00:57:41 Ralith: you're wrong 00:58:00 fe[nl]ix: okay 01:02:43 konr [n=user@187.88.58.4] has joined #lisp 01:04:44 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 01:09:30 QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 01:12:42 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:13:16 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:32 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by 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dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:19 too late, i'm giving up for now. 03:22:34 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:29:03 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:29:40 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:29:56 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 03:33:35 plage [n=user@113.161.70.110] has joined #lisp 03:33:42 Good morning! 03:34:11 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:35:04 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d817765.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:35:10 hello plage 03:35:38 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has joined #lisp 03:35:56 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:18 plage: Bonjour! 03:39:44 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:01 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:40:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:40:43 billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-14.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:18 hi plage 03:41:53 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:41:57 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 03:42:34 -!- billstclair is now known as wws 03:44:10 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-191-238.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:45:09 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:46:27 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-88-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:46:30 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 03:47:47 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:49:16 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:56:41 peterwang [n=user@122.227.189.156] has joined #lisp 03:59:58 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:18 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0"] 04:02:34 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 04:02:40 does sbcl-win32 still lack thread support? 04:04:44 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 04:05:11 bdowning [n=bdowning@2001:470:1f11:72a:230:65ff:fe8c:423a] has joined #lisp 04:07:26 oh wait 04:07:26 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:28 I'm on win64 04:08:27 hm 04:08:32 no binary for sbcl-win64 04:09:37 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:09:41 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-uvvopmeqfbayiqyz] has joined #lisp 04:10:15 -!- skeptical_p [n=rondev@bzq-82-81-175-125.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:28 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:59 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:11:05 oconnore_ [n=eric@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:07 Ralith: try CCL 04:15:54 it lacks some stuff that nyef works on for SBCL, but gives you threading and (rather) stable win32 and win64 binaries 04:16:28 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:36 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-230.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:20:03 p_l: what's nyef do for SBCL? 04:20:25 Ralith: iirc he was working on SEH integration 04:21:08 (Structured Exception Handling, apparently quite arcane part of win32 ABI that seems to be an important part of its VMS inheritance, except with worse docs.) 04:21:54 any reason this might concern me? 04:22:11 -!- oconnore_ is now known as oconnore_away 04:22:31 -!- oconnore_away is now known as oconnore_ 04:22:37 Ralith: dunno, I don't do enough win32 work at low enough level to notice :P 04:22:48 ^^ 04:22:55 _3b`: is sb-cga/ccl stable? 04:24:11 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 04:24:23 Ralith: it's a problem for SBCL or CCL because they actually emit code etc., while rest of the world tends to have the whole runtime written in C or using a VM that already implements necessary stuff (.NET) or something that doesn't care in principle (Java?) 04:25:51 so long as lisp is lispy and not painfully slow I am probably going to be okay 04:28:58 -!- paulscott [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2009122116]"] 04:33:11 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 04:34:44 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:17 So the official word is in. In the first two weeks it was out, Coders at Work sold more copies than PCL has in the 4+ years it's been out. 04:36:00 gigamonkey: bigger target market. nuff said 04:36:04 Yeah. Clearly. 04:36:20 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 04:36:48 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:37:01 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-230.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:37:11 gigamonkey: however, I wonder how it would look if you tried to include online viewers for PCL ;-) 04:38:42 p_l: yeah. 04:38:59 I've been pretty lame about paying any attention at all to my server logs so I have no real idea. 04:39:55 heh 04:40:29 I think that some not-annoying ads could probably bring some revenue there as well, possibly making you a little more at ease regarding your success as a writer ;-) 04:41:00 Possibly so. 04:43:48 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-197-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:05 just odn't use some flashy stuff... 04:48:42 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:49:50 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:57 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 04:50:12 koning_r1bot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 04:51:41 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:05 phax_ [n=phax@216-80-84-193.mart-ubr1.chi-mart.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:53:44 qbg [n=quassel@74.33.104.154] has joined #lisp 04:53:59 -!- phax_ [n=phax@216-80-84-193.mart-ubr1.chi-mart.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:54:40 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:58 -!- qbg [n=quassel@74.33.104.154] has quit [Client Quit] 04:54:59 phax_ [n=phax@216-80-84-193.mart-ubr1.chi-mart.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:55:59 -!- phax_ is now known as phax 04:59:50 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-220-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:17 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:05:40 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:46 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-tynweitsboseudbv] has joined #lisp 05:06:38 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:12:28 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.231.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:12:39 ASau [n=user@77.246.231.66] has joined #lisp 05:14:07 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:51 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 05:15:03 -!- sadiquea is now known as sdqali 05:17:09 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:52 balooga1 [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:10 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:21:38 balooga2 [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:44 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 05:28:46 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:29:43 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 05:32:42 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:36:19 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:37 fractalis [n=fractali@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:37:57 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:45:21 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-191-238.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:25 -!- balooga2 [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:10 -!- pjb [n=t@103.Red-88-30-105.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:46 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:48 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:00 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:01:19 felideon pasted "default-initargs indent" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93269 06:02:29 micware [n=michels@alf94-11-82-247-5-85.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:44 Is there any reason why the second slot in :default-initargs is not indented at the same level as the first? (using Emacs+SLIME) 06:03:17 -!- micware [n=michels@alf94-11-82-247-5-85.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 06:04:38 -!- vasuvi [n=vasuvi@pool-71-112-197-172.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:10:43 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 06:11:36 has anyone had good results with PIAP's DCG? 06:12:51 or anyone know a better impl of a DGC based rules system 06:13:00 in lisp though 06:13:49 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:13:58 i have an impl i wrote http://opensim4opencog.googlecode.com/files/E2C.html 06:14:07 but wrote that in prolog 06:14:32 pjb [n=t@103.Red-88-30-124.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:45 maybe pjb ;) 06:15:10 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:17:23 -!- oconnore_ [n=eric@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:17:49 i need to port to cyc's lisp.. so i was considering starting from PAIP's DCG impl.. but wondering if there was one already that outputs that HTML already better than paip would 06:18:35 pre-pjb: i have an impl i wrote http://opensim4opencog.googlecode.com/files/E2C.html but wrote that in prolog 06:19:10 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 06:19:28 oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:30 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 06:24:27 Scriptor [n=Scriptor@pool-98-117-17-204.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:50 -!- Scriptor [n=Scriptor@pool-98-117-17-204.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 06:25:18 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.218.57] has left #lisp 06:26:14 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:26:20 -!- sdqali [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:26:24 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 06:26:30 plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has joined #lisp 06:26:39 Good afternoon! 06:27:02 Almost time for my second and last Lisp seminar here. 06:27:10 [at least this time around] 06:29:45 bonjour plage 06:30:25 -!- ysph [n=user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:30:52 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:30:53 -!- oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:32:40 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:33:11 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 06:33:39 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau`` 06:34:03 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:34:47 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:49 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["taking a break from coding"] 06:35:27 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 06:38:25 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:41:15 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-47-197.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 06:43:37 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:26 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-117-148.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:44:47 nostoi [n=nostoi@222.Red-79-157-235.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:40 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:47:58 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-207.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:50:43 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:50:44 plage: btw, been in Paris yesterday - Charles de Gaulle Airport is really impressive piece of work (possibly looks more impressive than Schiphol, though Schiphol has IMHO better facilities, at least the one I had seen) :) 06:51:18 (if you can call stay at airport + hotel as "visiting Paris". Still better than "driving through Lyon" ^_- ) 06:51:35 ysph [n=user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:56 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:00:31 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:01:08 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 07:04:27 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 07:12:32 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 07:16:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:17:46 -!- Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:18:32 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:05 -!- Orest^bnc [n=Orest@81.169.174.192] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:20:27 Orest^bnc [n=Orest@81.169.174.192] has joined #lisp 07:20:43 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Success] 07:24:16 p_l: most French people do anything they possibly can to avoid CdG airport in Paris. It is a total zool. 07:24:18 *zoo 07:24:28 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:24:57 p_l: How is work with libraries going? 07:25:29 nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 07:27:20 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:53 What Lisp system would you use for Windows? 07:29:43 without doing any research, I'd probably from-the-gut say CCL 07:30:06 ianmcorvidae: Thanks! 07:30:12 Does SBCL work on windows these days? 07:30:18 I'm... not sure 07:30:26 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.58.4] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:30:33 which is why I said CCL; I think SBCL has windows builds but they're out of date, or somesuch 07:30:48 sbcl kinda works on windoze, but it's far from being stable 07:30:58 attila_lendvai: And does it have threads? 07:31:58 xpololz [n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:18 minion: Tell me about CCL. 07:32:18 plage: look at CCL: CCL is Clozure Common Lisp, or Clozure CL for short. http://www.cliki.net/CCL 07:32:35 i think it does, but that doesn't help with stability... :) 07:32:48 attila_lendvai: Indeed. Is anyone working on that problem? 07:33:01 advokate [n=advokate@c-71-202-159-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:08 but i've not started anything besides games on windoze in the last 5-10 years 07:33:08 -!- advokate [n=advokate@c-71-202-159-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:34:39 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-aicwrrtfpczbzbzq] has joined #lisp 07:34:50 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:34:52 morning 07:39:57 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:42:46 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 07:43:17 -!- ASau`` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:43:54 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:44:52 simplechat_ [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:48:37 Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:50:02 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:53:43 plage: sorry for late response - For Windows, I'm going with CCL cause I've already tested it on both windows and linux, libraries were delayed due to a lot of "stuff" happening as well as return to temporary homelessnes and having my travel delayed by 24h... 07:54:08 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:54:17 also, CCL has threading and seems to be rather stable on both win32 and win64 07:55:20 mishoo__ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 07:55:23 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:17 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-74-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:02:57 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:05:24 hello splittist 08:05:33 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-115-76.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:17 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed 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[n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:55:42 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.76.63] has quit ["leaving"] 09:00:19 tcr, around? could you commit (format s "~A => ~A" sym (to-string (symbol-value sym))) in variable-desc-for-echo-area? it catches possible print errors... (use ~A and add a to-string) 09:00:20 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-74-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:00:56 billstclai [n=billstcl@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 09:01:47 hrm, or maybe it's not even needed with your special controlling whether to debug swank or not? 09:02:23 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:02:28 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 09:03:07 -!- billstclair is now known as wws 09:03:35 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-74-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:15 -!- ysph [n=user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:09:36 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:27 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-32-233.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:19:58 Is anyone familiar with the cl-glut bug in which two or three sequential (not parallel) calls to display-window produce a memory fault? 09:26:28 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e195-193.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:35:47 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:40:12 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:58 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 09:43:10 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.115.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:43:25 konr [n=user@187.88.115.130] has joined #lisp 09:48:27 -!- besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:57 postamar [n=postamar@let10-doqu2.univ-avignon.fr] has joined #lisp 09:50:27 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:58:15 weirdo [i=w@rodney.ltd.pl] has joined #lisp 09:58:25 what's the deal with dwim.hu? 10:00:52 weirdo, i'm setting up the new VPS 10:01:10 i'm fixing our codebase now, should be back sometime soonish 10:02:36 -!- mishoo__ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:03:13 weirdo, what are you missing from there btw? 10:04:05 so, why does usocket depend on cl-utilities instead of alexandria? 10:04:10 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 10:04:23 attila_lendvai, i can't build cl-rdbms due to symbol conflics with new closer-mop 10:04:58 weirdo, ah, right, that's a headache... hu.dwim.rdbms should work fine 10:06:13 attila_lendvai, http://rdbms.dwim.hu doesn't work 10:06:20 or should i try some other protocol? 10:06:56 weirdo, http is served by our lisp server, i'm compiling it now, but the build was broken, needs a bit of fixing 10:07:18 ok :) gotta get back on it some other time 10:07:23 bbiab 10:07:56 mishoo__ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 10:12:01 -!- mishoo__ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Client Quit] 10:12:07 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 10:13:05 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-185-3.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:15:05 -!- postamar [n=postamar@let10-doqu2.univ-avignon.fr] has quit [] 10:16:11 this usocket/cl-utilities is annoying with its split-sequence... 10:18:12 it has a split-sequence but not a .asd, so it's kinda a replacement but it doesn't work and it's in the way 10:22:03 postamar [n=postamar@let10-doqu2.univ-avignon.fr] has joined #lisp 10:23:36 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 10:26:38 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 10:33:30 Ralith: no, but if you have a reproducible test case please send it to the mailing list. 10:33:55 *attila_lendvai* rolled back his usocket 10:34:06 god bless version control systems! :) 10:34:07 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:35:24 if you didn't have version control systems, you wouldn't be using an unreleased version of usocket 10:35:30 luis: I've heard others mention the issue, but I'll wait to verify with them; it might be my hardware or system. 10:35:32 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-188-228.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:36:17 Xof, integrating these 100+ libs would be hopeless not using the head of them all (or a close enough state) 10:40:40 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:45:18 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-49-22.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:45:36 -!- sadiquea is now known as sdqali 10:45:38 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:09 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:51:17 Xof: have you heard of 'Software Carpentry' (a method/curriculum for teaching relevant(?) software development-related stuff to scientists)? 10:52:34 no 10:53:29 Intensity [i=[3HRxiKb@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 10:56:41 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:54 Xof: somewhat dated version at http://software-carpentry.org/. It sounded better when it was explained as 'you scientists are going to be hacking on matlab scripts/whatever for the next N years, so we might as well tell you about version control, debugging, testing, processing data with regexps, processing xml data (smuggling in recursion) and processing data from databases. 10:57:16 not very relatedly, I might have to do MORE TEACHING next year, and I was trying to think of a course that was simultaneously not dull as dishwater and possible for our 3rd-year undergrads 10:57:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:45 and although I hate what you might call "comparative linguistics", I wondered whether something like "Object-Oriented Programming" might be doable 10:58:14 Looking at that site there seems too much python and not enough github/launchpad/what you'll really use... 10:58:19 where you cover message-passing (Squeak), prototype (Javascript) and generic function (CL) systems 10:59:03 Xof: ooh. And implementing them all in scheme for (not very much) extra credit? 10:59:16 splittist: looks like the lecturer on software carpentry is one of the scipy people 10:59:37 "If you have a large group, or a budget, [Perforce] is excellent" 11:00:11 also, most scientists would run screaming from something like git that makes them make choices about how to start things 11:00:13 I think he now regrets too much emphasis on programming in the (organised) large 11:00:57 sometimes versatility causes -- what is it -- the paralysis of choice? 11:00:58 anyway 11:01:34 thoughts on a course on Object-Oriented Programming appreciated 11:01:46 particularly answers to "what's the point?" and "how do you assess it?" 11:02:17 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-32-233.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:22 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e195-193.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:05:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-94-89.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:06:20 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-47-197.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:08:45 -!- Intensity [i=[3HRxiKb@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:09:52 Xof: is the idea that 'you will hear the term OOP used from time to time; it is likely that the person using the term will not be aware that it describes a broad family of more-or-less related concepts. This course will give you an appreciation of some of the better known members of this family and the means to understand how they are related so that you can follow the discussions of less educated mortals'. 11:10:33 22687 dmiles 20 0 1772m 1.6g 21m R 74.7 21.0 9:41.31 alisp 11:10:45 how do i increase the headroom? 11:10:53 it keeps GCing 11:11:06 Upon completion of the course students will be able to participate in Reddit flamefests with an unshakeable sense of their own superiority. 11:11:14 well asking if someone knows if there was a startup option 11:11:42 splittist: that's not a bad rationale 11:13:09 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.194] has joined #lisp 11:14:49 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:16:47 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f665223-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 11:19:08 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7550ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:19:21 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 11:21:04 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:21:16 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-230.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:38 -!- Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:23:35 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:24:47 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:26:53 finally after about 3000 GCs it seems to have grown to 2.1gb 11:29:05 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 11:31:56 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:02 -!- prip [n=_prip@host226-128-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:35:56 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:29 This is spooky. I've upgraded my ubuntu installation, and now all my mails seem get tagged by "{Spam?}" 11:39:59 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-uvvopmeqfbayiqyz] has left #lisp 11:40:54 -!- sdqali [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:42:28 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 11:45:43 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 11:47:20 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:31 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 11:50:29 prip [n=_prip@host226-128-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:53:19 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:53:31 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 11:56:27 anyone know cl-gd? 11:58:34 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:05:04 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e195-193.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has 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[n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 12:28:37 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-111-57-60.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:58 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:33:22 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-33-162.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 12:36:14 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:39 -!- Zergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:38:11 Zergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:07 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:43:13 WhiteFlame [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:22 -!- WhiteFlame [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:53:19 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 12:56:38 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:29 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:11 htdang [n=huynhthe@115.75.86.142] has joined #lisp 13:03:40 -!- htdang [n=huynhthe@115.75.86.142] has quit [Client Quit] 13:05:32 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:11 HG` [n=HG@85.8.75.154] has joined #lisp 13:13:45 -!- Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:13:54 Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:14:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:19 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:18:01 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f6610e7-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 13:21:14 -!- k1 is now known as newfurniturey 13:29:38 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.75.154] has quit [Client Quit] 13:31:09 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:31:59 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:33:04 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:44 peterwan` [n=user@123.118.116.177] has joined #lisp 13:38:18 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:00 Guthur_ [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:36 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:04 -!- ASau is now known as IPav 13:44:57 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:26 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has left #lisp 13:49:03 QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 13:50:03 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:51:58 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:39 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:53:55 this seems to predate CFFI http://autocad.xarch.at/lisp/ffis.html#pmeurer_ffi 13:54:04 circa Feb 2000 13:54:23 -!- peterwan` [n=user@123.118.116.177] has left #lisp 13:55:58 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/e7f8be41239abd7e/647e8cf1e6015a39 13:56:48 -!- IPav is now known as ASau` 13:56:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:57:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:57 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:04 -!- sdqali [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:05:20 -!- [df] [n=df@aldur.bowerham.net] has left #lisp 14:07:01 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:10 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:10:45 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 14:10:57 besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 14:15:26 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-94-89.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:16:18 fusss: It also seems to predate UFFI. 14:16:32 yes 14:18:34 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.89.100] has joined #lisp 14:24:39 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:27:01 abugosh [n=Adium@c-69-140-128-88.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:27 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:30:02 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:30:08 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 14:30:25 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 14:31:47 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.115.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:21 konr [n=user@187.88.115.130] has joined #lisp 14:32:27 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 14:33:30 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@e195-193.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:33:30 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:34:13 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:34:27 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 14:35:28 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:37:38 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:43:48 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:16 -!- koning_r1bot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46:24 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-111-57-60.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:46:36 Hmm..thinking conceptually here a bit. For TDD and CL - is that done very often by anyone here? I'm curious, specifically, how stuff with CLSQL can be done through TDD. 14:49:00 TDT: TDD & SQL is a problem with any language  you should google around for "mock objects". 14:49:14 -!- besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:49:48 Best way to test stuff with clsql is to use perec instead of clsql. 14:50:00 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:02 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:17 Then revert each test's transaction when the test has passed, just before it would have been committed. 14:50:33 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:00 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:52:09 lichtblau: I think that's how rails does some of their testing, and I haven't used perec really before, so I'll look into that. 14:52:18 sellout: yeah, mocks I know very littel about, but will read more - thanks. 14:52:39 I think that to really test SQL, you just need to load the damned SQL database on a testing instance 14:53:16 (the key point about perec here is just that it doesn't cache stuff on the lisp side across transactions, any other library implementing the same approach is also fine) 14:54:00 p_l: That's kinda what I've been doing, but that usually means doing sqlite and having to load fixtures for testing stuff. It's not terrible, but not that great either. 14:55:29 TDT: well, what I'm thinking of won't work with mocks anyway :P 14:56:20 Mocks in general may be worth me learning about since it's soemthign we're working on here a bit 14:57:48 mocks work well for ORMs, not so well for direct queries 14:58:13 I'd say it depends on where you store application logic :) 14:58:49 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 14:59:48 yeah. There's a lot I really should read about when it comes to testing. I know very little, overall...usually just write the code, if it works when I run it I claim it as being done. Kinda brittle 15:00:53 besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:01:15 mocks that I had seen so far fail when the you keep real logic etc. inside database 15:02:13 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:02:13 How can you store logic inside the database? 15:03:31 tcr: stored procedures and usually "putting more info into database than Rails & weekend PHP programmers tend to do" 15:04:01 weekend php programmers? lol kinda reminds me of "weekend warriors" 15:04:03 What are stored procedures usually used for? 15:04:22 tcr: putting logic inside database ;-) 15:04:39 Now that makes sense :-) 15:04:39 Well, kinda yes...sometimes it's helpful if you're calling a central operation on multiple platforms. 15:04:40 e.g. making a user 15:04:57 instead of putting queries inside your app, you call procedures through the same interfaces as queries 15:04:57 I use them for backwards compatibility between sql server 2008 and 2005 too 15:05:42 p_l: So it can be shared between applications? 15:06:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:06:24 tcr: yes. They can also keep a constant interface despite internal changes, are optimized better and have more sophisticated security system 15:06:46 Ok 15:06:55 for example you can define a stored procedure that is setuid, allowing actions for other users 15:07:58 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:16 I wonder why they're called procedures; don't they return data? 15:09:26 tcr: they aren't really functional ... :P 15:09:33 and they don't have to return data 15:10:20 now, to get a library that would support SPs directly in CL, so I could define the whole schema with SPs in Lisp and have autogenerated wrappers 15:11:01 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:14:57 oudeis [n=oudeis@IGLD-84-229-161-28.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:15:47 Pascal has a lot to answer for. 15:16:00 heh 15:16:03 Being a function has nothing to do with returning a value, per se. 15:16:09 I'm not sure if not COBOL as well 15:16:17 A procedure is a sequence of operations over time. 15:16:38 A function is an invariant mapping. 15:16:55 So all CL 'functions' are procedures, likewise with C 'functions'. 15:18:22 I suspect that only pure functional langs got it right ;-) 15:18:35 Scheme got it right. 15:20:24 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.202.90] has joined #lisp 15:20:44 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:27:38 rails is seriously making me cry today 15:28:02 TDT: ? 15:29:10 p_l: it's what I use at work, but it randomly breaking right now is annoying is all. 15:31:38 oh, so you are breaking the magic? :) 15:31:43 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:33:19 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:34:31 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:34:46 -!- Guthur_ is now known as Guthur 15:36:52 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:07 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7550ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:35 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:22 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:41:06 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:41:08 ln5 [n=ln5@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:59 dwim.hu is back more or less 15:44:26 paulscott [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:05 -!- paulscott is now known as Lithos 15:49:16 -!- postamar [n=postamar@let10-doqu2.univ-avignon.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:49:56 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@c-69-140-128-88.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:51:58 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:53:47 attila_lendvai, where's the repo located? 15:53:54 clicking repo->darcs/git shows an empty page 15:53:58 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:30 *splittist* fires up gawk, crosses fingers 15:54:51 dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 15:55:13 Jabberwockey [n=jens@p54A11865.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:55:18 i played with Caml Light yesterday, after 10 years 15:55:26 kinda cheesy 15:55:41 weirdo, that's why it's more or less 15:55:58 oh :) 15:56:00 the server has been migrated to a new machine which has higher internet connection speeds 15:56:04 but not yet finished 15:56:14 e.g. darcs and git are not yet configured 15:56:45 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has left #lisp 15:56:56 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:57:06 -!- Zergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:59:32 Zergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:02 milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.106] has joined #lisp 16:02:05 spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 16:02:27 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:04:41 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:06:21 p_l: More like Rails has been little magic for me so far :) 16:06:57 -!- knobo`` [n=user@ti100710a080-0827.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:52 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 16:11:56 Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.23.52] has joined #lisp 16:12:14 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:13:29 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 16:19:05 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:18 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:29 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:22:39 Who wants to try out my search thingy? 16:24:57 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-190-181.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:26:32 bah. 16:26:32 *splittist* uncrosses fingers as gawk segfaults 16:26:45 Xach: I will, I will! Pick me! 16:27:11 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=defclass <-- not quite a public url yet 16:28:18 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=seibel is another example... 16:32:11 Xach: nice. Once you've got some search results, though, the 'next' and 'prev' links in an article kind of have another meaning. You could say 'earlier' and 'later', I guess. 16:32:36 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 16:32:52 splittist: yeah. 16:32:53 abugosh [n=Adium@c-69-140-128-88.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:12 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:06 the search adds another axis of navigation that isn't integrated like the date navigation is 16:34:37 *Xach* thinks 16:35:02 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-139-117-185.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:35:16 Xach: have a sidebar with the search results? 16:35:26 *splittist* is on his wide screen this evening... 16:37:22 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:31 -foo will search for all articles not containing "foo" 16:38:19 thanks (: 16:38:23 (it does a bit-andc2 on that term's bit-vector) 16:38:38 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 16:38:50 Xach, awesome! 16:39:05 (funny idea, too) 16:39:58 at SBCL10 I did an experiment with a special CLOS metaclass called compact-class 16:40:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@IGLD-84-229-161-28.inter.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:40:23 which allows :allocation :compact meaning that the slot value will be represented as part of a fixnum 16:40:48 with special allocation, namely having extra words at the end of the slot vector 16:40:55 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:23 I could store booleans and other integer like types with much less memory still keeping the semantics of CLOS 16:41:37 if you want to take a look, try http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.util/source/compact-class.lisp 16:42:54 current limitations are: no support for unbound slots (would need an extra bit per slot), the type must be representable within a fixnum 16:43:14 obviously multiple slots are mapped to a single fixnum in the instance slot vector 16:43:23 standard and compact slots can be mixed in the same class 16:43:29 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229250252.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:41 subclasses may override the allocation back and forth 16:43:55 levente_meszaros: do you do member types too? 16:44:16 pkhuong, yes, in fact I rather do finite types 16:44:40 not perfect though, there's a hu.dwim.util::type-instance-count-upper-bound 16:45:12 so (or null (member :a :b :c) (integer 0 23)) is possible 16:45:23 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:45:29 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-33-87.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:45:53 note that the code is not yet used in any production system, and the test suite is practically non existent 16:45:55 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.23.52] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:46:24 but at least it makes me feel safe by adding new boolean slots to my GUI components 16:47:05 creating a different memory layout is as simple as subclassing and overriding :allocation 16:48:14 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229118176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:48:49 for example, on a 64 bits machine a boolean, an (unsigned-byte 8), a base-char and a single-float fits into one word!!! 16:49:54 levente_meszaros: yeah, but not a fixnum. 16:50:19 a fixnum takes a word no matter what 16:50:27 prxq [n=mommer@f051047213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:50:33 levente_meszaros: a 64 bit word takes a slot and 2 words. 16:50:37 Hi 16:50:38 Hurrah for bitfields in CL. :) 16:50:59 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:51:02 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:09 pkhuong, if you take into account the header too 16:51:19 but I have classes with 10-20 or even 30 slots 16:51:30 that's a very cool hack 16:51:34 and I also need class-slots and friends to work as expected 16:51:42 there was a nice little framework for parallelism (smp) in CL. Things like a parallel let were part of it. What was its name again? 16:52:13 levente_meszaros: it's just that it takes less space to use 2 fixnums instead of 1 machine word. 16:52:44 krl [n=user@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:52:51 Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 16:53:49 hohum [i=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:01 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 16:54:06 pkhuong, sorry, I'm not sure I understand correctly what you are saying 16:54:12 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:54:43 prxq: chanl does that <_< 16:54:46 Xach: the search works nicely. 16:54:57 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:02 well, rather, the futures built on it do that. 16:56:00 loosing 3 bits out of 64 is not much compared to how much I loose for a slot with boolean type by default 16:56:37 the coolest solution would be to use Xof's mop extension, and if we could add typed slots to the instance struct of the clos instance (assuming i fully understand how that works) 16:56:42 *attila_lendvai* is afk 16:58:38 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-52-82-65-108-190.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:42 sykopomp: looks interesting 16:58:53 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Client Quit] 16:59:14 levente_meszaros: stuffing your 4 slots in a single (unsigned-byte 64) takes 3 words. Stuffing them in 2 fixnums only takes 2. 17:02:02 -!- simplechat_ [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:02 My point is simply that you should stop at fixnums instead of machine words: not only does it probably use less space, but it also avoids one layer of indirection and some consing (unless you store the words in a mutable specialised vector). 17:02:32 pkhuong, I do use fixnums in the instance vector 17:02:57 no extra allocation there, except that allocate-instance is customized to increase the length of the vector 17:04:08 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 Sorry *base*-char. That'd fit in a word. 17:04:43 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229250252.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:50 (well fixnum) 17:06:10 e.g. a class with 5 slots: t, boolean, (integer 0 255), base-char, single-float would result in an instance vector of length 2 17:06:22 the first element points to the slot with type t 17:06:40 the second element is a fixnum containing the bits of all the other slots 17:06:44 this is on a 64 bits machine 17:07:50 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit ["leaving"] 17:08:06 more slots might require more fixnums in the instance vector 17:08:10 hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:08:10 Guthur_ [n=Michael@host86-141-209-156.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:26 storing a single slot value in two fixnums (partly in each) is not supported 17:08:54 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:00 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:32 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:09:50 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:11:33 I wonder how much memory a Java VM uses to store a boolean typed member variable 17:12:05 and whether if you can affect some way 17:14:21 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [] 17:14:36 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-tynweitsboseudbv] has quit [] 17:16:37 prxq pasted "parallel mapcar: why do all the threads run on the same core?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93284 17:16:53 any ideas? 17:17:19 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-52-82-65-122-116.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:17 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:55 prxq: you have only one core? 17:20:02 prxq, function is too fast, probably 17:20:06 add some busy-looping 17:20:54 weirdo: any idea on what the threshold is? There is an expensive numerical thing running in it. Takes less than 0.1sec though. 17:21:35 the expensiveness comes from having to call it many, many times/ 17:21:43 prxq: possibly the latency of threading is big enough to outweigh splitting threads on different cores 17:22:23 prxq: i think it's better to run not much more threads than cores and divide work between them 17:23:12 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:02 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:24:43 stassats`: you mean by passing messages? 17:25:20 i don't mean that 17:26:18 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 17:26:45 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:08 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:28:06 in the use case I have here, the number of arguments is smaller than the number of cores. so I am doing exactly what you mean, then. 17:28:21 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:34 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 17:28:40 levente_meszaros, jvm's are generally terrible at this sort of stuff 17:29:01 the function I am calling closes over one common datum which only ever gets read. Might that be a problem? 17:30:01 sykopomp: do you think chanl would not have such a problem? 17:30:18 skeptical_p [n=rondev@bzq-82-81-175-125.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:24 Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:40 -!- skeptical_p [n=rondev@bzq-82-81-175-125.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:30:40 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Client Quit] 17:30:54 prxq, that should be fine on any threading system 17:31:07 ie, sb-thread, bordeaux-threads, chanl, eager-future, etc. 17:31:11 skeptical_p [n=rondev@bzq-82-81-175-125.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:36 -!- krl [n=user@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has left #lisp 17:32:17 Adlai: but not on sb-thread? 17:32:37 top shows sbcl at ~~130% :-) 17:32:43 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:32:48 It could be more 17:33:02 well, any thread library running on SBCL has to use sb-thread 17:33:20 my point is that read-only access to a closed-over variable shouldn't be a problem 17:33:26 ah ok 17:33:57 maybe sending data down some mailboxes works better than creating new threads... 17:36:24 prxq, if you need a worker implementation, you might look at this: http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.util/source/worker-group.lisp 17:36:48 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:38:39 levente_meszaros: you sure customized your CL 17:39:10 UnwashedMeme1 [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 17:39:29 levente_meszaros: I think that has a little more functionality than what I might need. 17:39:39 prxq, well, lisp is a programmable programming language, no? 17:39:59 prxq, copy-paste, or use in any way you like 17:41:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:57 Intensity [i=[4twWOV+@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 17:42:17 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 17:43:07 what is (def (function e) foo ..)? 17:44:08 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:44:21 prxq, defines a function foo and exports its name 17:44:35 ah ok. thanks 17:46:27 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:47:21 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:16 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:48:26 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:50:28 jamesstanley [n=james@82-33-61-156.cable.ubr06.stav.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:50:37 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:52:31 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:54:06 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@c-69-140-128-88.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:54:36 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-117-148.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:54:47 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-47-187.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:58:16 levente_meszaros, you have link to 'def' thing ? 17:58:24 looks interesting 17:58:48 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:18 milanj, darcs get http://dwim.hu/darcs/hu.dwim.def 18:00:27 or http://dwim.hu/project/hu.dwim.def 18:01:31 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:01:36 thanks 18:03:48 will need a few more repos... go to documentation / install on dwim.hu 18:03:58 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Operation timed out] 18:04:04 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:05:07 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 18:09:15 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 18:09:38 dnolen [n=dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 18:10:16 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:21 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:12:35 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:14:19 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:59 *p_l* ponders when exactly will he clock 48hrs 18:16:24 -!- r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:27 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:16:28 attila_lendvai, is it me or dwim.hu is much faster then before 18:17:19 milanj: heard something about VPS change 18:18:14 prxq annotated #93284 "different approach, same problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93284#1 18:18:49 -!- besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:19:05 this time I really don't know what the reason might be. 18:19:24 there really are eight cores on this machine 18:19:59 dont know, but last time i checked there it was like 5+ sec of loading (safari) 18:20:36 milanj, it has a faster internet connection 18:20:40 milanj: only 5s? nice :P 18:21:01 but the client side is still slow 18:21:08 lots of js building up context menus 18:21:12 should be lazy soon 18:21:33 prxq: I think you might need to talk with your OS, not SBCL 18:22:15 *p_l* ran prxq's example code with 4 threads and observed visible periods of running only on 1 cpu 18:22:23 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:22:29 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:23:39 prxq, side note: (loop repeat 8 ..) 18:24:11 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7550ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:14 this is a plain jaunty on an intel i7 18:24:24 Adlai: thx :-) 18:24:50 also, lambda is a macro for (function (lambda ..)), so you don't need to write #'(lambda ..), but that is a style issue and some people prefer the latter. 18:24:56 realbatman [n=user@59.164.187.150] has joined #lisp 18:24:57 p_l: what can I tell my OS? 18:25:00 wow, according to the user agent breakdown there are 16 users on dwim.hu 18:25:02 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:25:07 Adlai: oh I know that 18:25:28 prxq, another way to save a few characters -- 2.0d0 === 2d0 18:25:32 the number of bots is 3-4 18:25:50 oh and also (loop while t do ...) === (loop ..) 18:26:13 Adlai: it still runs like crap :-) 18:26:16 prxq: I suspect that the scheduler causes such distribution 18:26:28 I get better utilization with 3 processes on a 4-core machine 18:26:46 prxq, it runs beautifully on my dual core. 18:27:03 prxq: you can try manually setting affinity or try to play around with fine-tuning of scheduler parameters 18:27:05 Xof: how much? 18:27:12 load of 220% or so 18:27:29 -!- realbatman [n=user@59.164.187.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:02 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:07 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:28:12 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:28:19 realbatman [n=user@59.164.187.150] has joined #lisp 18:29:23 i get a load of 140% 18:30:16 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-139-117-185.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:31:23 Xof: any ideas why you do not get 400%? 18:32:47 300%? No 18:33:22 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:23 prxq, unless you adjust the priority of the threads, I think the OS will schedule other threads too. 18:33:30 -!- skeptical_p [n=rondev@bzq-82-81-175-125.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:54 oh, well, hang on: that computation conses 18:34:01 there'll be gcs happening 18:34:06 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:06 ah... 18:34:10 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:34:31 and then there's a "stop the world" moment, right? 18:34:48 yes 18:35:04 hmm, i wish SB-IMPL::TOPLEVEL-INIT (or something similar) was exported & supported so I could save executables that have a toplevel that does a little tiny bit then just calls the normal toplevel. 18:35:23 Xof yes that was it. 18:35:32 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:37:26 if I add (declare (double-float x)) then I get 798% 18:37:47 that is pretty disappointing, however. 18:38:02 prxq, declaring the type makes X become unboxed 18:38:17 declaring the type probably makes the compiler optimize out the loop entirely 18:38:27 gibsonf1 [n=user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:42 Xof, what do you mean by "the loop"? 18:38:46 prxq: if you have a computation with a small amount of consing, then you can increase the nursery generation size 18:38:48 Xof: seems to run though. 18:39:09 maybe because I have high debug settings 18:39:18 and low speed opt settings 18:39:26 high debug low speed will cons stuff per function-call 18:39:27 I think you mean just produce optimized code that doesn't cons new double-floats, although it sounds like you mean optimize it so that the loop never happens. 18:39:30 Does anyone have code for an Allegro style read-sequence which includes the :partial-fill key? 18:39:58 Adlai: no, I was expecting it to optimize away the body of the loop completely 18:40:02 in fact it doesn't 18:40:09 can I have a multithreaded GC? :-) 18:40:10 ok 18:40:20 also, the way you're patronizing prxq is very impressive 18:40:29 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:35 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:40:40 prxq: sure, put in a funding proposal with that included as a work package; I'm sure we can find someone to do it 18:41:24 Xof: thought so. I'll see what I can do :-) 18:41:25 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 18:41:46 prxq, I'm sorry; Xof, thank you for calling me out on that. 18:41:47 prxq: I propose finding good money for that ;-) 18:42:03 Adlai: no problem 18:44:05 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:44:22 (also, a multithreaded gc will tend to make your program slower) 18:44:25 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:01 multithreaded gcs decrease throughput but decrease latency. That said, our gc is probably not optimal, so a good multithreaded gc might make your program faster than one running with our gc 18:46:13 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 18:46:22 skeptical_p [n=rondev@bzq-82-81-175-125.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:22 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:46:29 -!- r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:46:33 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:46:37 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:46:57 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 18:47:00 ahh, found read-sequence with partial-fill: http://stuff.mit.edu/afs/athena.mit.edu/software/maxima/current/sbcl-0.9.11-sparc-sunos/contrib/sb-simple-streams/impl.lisp 18:47:07 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:20 Xof: I see. ...and thanks for the help. 18:51:16 TR2N [i=email@89.180.134.146] has joined #lisp 18:51:39 For any clsql experts here, I am running into an odd error I'm not sure what it's talking about The code is here: https://gist.github.com/f65ae96e6821120bd99f -- The slot of base, what is that in reference to? 18:51:51 Holcxjo [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:04 hmm, maybe nm on this, I found some documentation that may at least shove me in the right direction 18:53:08 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:53:25 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:53:25 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:40 TDT: I don't know, but ":set ni" looks like a typo. 18:54:24 -!- nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:55 Xach: you're right, I must have erased the last character in testing. still same issue 18:56:04 Interesting 18:56:17 Apparently you need at least one variable that has :db-kind = :base 18:56:45 Since I was using two joins originally, there was no :base. I changed term_order to :base for kicks and giggles and got a different error this time. 18:57:56 knobo [n=user@s0023-0003.dsl.start.no] has joined #lisp 18:59:56 -!- r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:03 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:00:57 Xach: I updated the gist with the fix at the bottom...very odd 19:01:15 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 19:01:16 I"m getting an error about OBJECT_ID not being there, but at least this is a start. 19:02:25 TDT: I just instantiated that class both in LW and SBCL with no issues 19:02:38 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:03:18 TDT: what version of clsql are you running? 19:03:38 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:05:59 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:04 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:07:29 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:07:42 -!- h_durer [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:01 afk - going to check accommodation (aka "lose my ``homeless'' status") 19:12:25 -!- r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:12:30 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:15:06 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-173.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:10 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 19:16:13 gibsonf1: The class itself isn't bad, it's when I do a select that it fails on me 19:16:23 and using the lastest version as of a month or so ago. 19:17:37 ahh...swank doesn't like to start before the toplevel, maybe. 19:18:30 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:18:36 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:18:38 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-82.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:20:13 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has joined #lisp 19:20:17 TDT: ok. Good luck with it. (hard to help without loading your whole system and playing with it in the repl, and no time for that) 19:20:53 gibsonf1: Yeah, I understan that. I think it comes down to not having a key setup as well.which this table doesn't 19:22:46 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:01 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:23:01 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has quit [Client Quit] 19:23:06 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has joined #lisp 19:23:30 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 19:24:12 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has quit [Client Quit] 19:24:58 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:25:02 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:25:27 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has joined #lisp 19:25:34 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32DB73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:52 Has anyone ported Allegro's imap library to LW or SBCL? 19:29:12 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.218.77] has joined #lisp 19:29:12 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-47-187.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:30:59 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:04 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:32:12 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:58 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 19:33:33 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-aicwrrtfpczbzbzq] has quit [] 19:35:01 Or, is anyone having success with a different imap library like mel-base? 19:35:11 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-33-87.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:12 i've been experimenting on mcclim for three days now, i have to say that i am fascinated by the clever ui approach and capabilities of clim, and mcclim is a very nice free implementation of it. 19:35:21 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-189-216.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:36:37 prx, about 400% load... things like gc stop all threads, so if you spend much time in such, then your load will suffer 19:37:09 *attila_lendvai* should finish his reading before answering 19:37:18 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:22 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:37:59 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:41:49 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:23 QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 19:42:52 the thing is mcclim manual is not really complete and has few examples in it, so the best guide to learn it seems to be the clim user guides of franz and lw, but there are a few problems with running the examples because of the issues mostly external to clim, like threading, examples in franz clim user guide which include threading uses allegro specific expressions for threading, it was pretty easy to run the code with little changes, but i think the mcclim sp 19:43:05 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 19:43:14 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:43:19 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:43:21 kenanb: cut off at "...think the mcclim sp" 19:43:56 Xach: oh sorry 19:43:57 but i think the mcclim specific versions of the user guide examples should be added to the libraries' examples part. 19:44:19 is there someone here from the developers of mcclim 19:44:48 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:58 repeteke [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #lisp 19:45:15 may i help with this issue if they like that since i'm already working on the guide and have to chance the code 19:45:25 change* 19:45:58 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:48:22 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@83.240.225.146] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 19:48:24 also, some of the user guide examples are buggy but i've not been able to correct them because i myself am much of a newbie 19:49:06 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:11 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:49:16 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:51:51 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-47-197.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 19:51:57 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=562026 19:52:03 oops, wrong channel 19:52:14 FareWell [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:45 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 19:53:55 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:08 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:18 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:55:23 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:55:35 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:56:23 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:54 ok, I think http://xach.com/naggum/articles/ is very near its final form. 19:58:04 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:58:10 i'd appreciate feedback. 19:58:17 -!- FareWell [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:58:40 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 19:58:41 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:58:53 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 19:59:37 Xach, pressing 'u' on that page goes up one directory to a 403 error. 19:59:45 Adlai: Ok, thanks. 20:00:01 oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:36 Adlai: really? I can't reproduce. 20:00:52 ahh it's my browser, then. 20:00:55 *Adlai* uses Conkeror 20:01:12 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:13 vimperator does not like those shortcuts either 20:01:16 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:01:16 *Adlai* is on a roll with the constructive criticism today >_> 20:01:20 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:01:35 Xach: this is nice work. thank you. 20:02:12 No problem. I hope it's easier to find things with than google groups. 20:02:14 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:02:46 tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 20:02:49 Greetings lispers. 20:04:05 Xach, this is MUCH nicer than google groups, although that says very little 20:04:45 i have a deadlock in an app. it's on sbcl x86, and i'm trying to get a backtrace from the threads, but they are all cut short at the usual "foreign function..." is this something new? it seems to be rare or gone on x86 64... 20:05:45 -!- Zergonan is now known as Hergonan 20:07:06 -!- oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:06 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:10 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:07:37 Xach: the search stuff works impressively quickly. 20:08:14 oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:43 -!- oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:56 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:09:23 thanks. i will write about how it works. it's not novel, but it was fun to write and lisp made it easier than i expected. 20:09:37 cool 20:09:41 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:10:59 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/f072730a.html 20:11:07 beautiful. lol 20:13:19 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:24 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:13:42 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:42 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.218.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:08 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.45.204] has joined #lisp 20:17:25 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.89.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:54 xach is the comp.lang.lisp archive freely available ? 20:18:01 -!- knobo [n=user@s0023-0003.dsl.start.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:10 Dawgmatix_: sort of. 20:18:25 any pointers on where i can fetch it ? 20:18:53 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:53 a google search turns fails to turn anything up 20:19:11 Dawgmatix_: I have it and I can put it up somewhere. 20:19:14 stassats`: here? 20:19:43 Xach: Very nice work! (thanks again for ZS3 btw! - have it working great with my webapp now) 20:20:06 xach that would be wonderful :) 20:20:20 Dawgmatix_: It's really big, though - 700-ish megabytes. That'll cost me a dime every time someone pulls it down... 20:20:22 if you want i can create an account for you on my webserver and you can upload it 20:20:35 in that case let me make you an account, you can scp it up 20:20:45 ok 20:20:56 tcr: yep 20:20:59 gibsonf1: glad to hear it! 20:21:55 stassats`: Did you manage emacs-from-bzr? 20:22:46 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 20:23:35 tcr: yeah, i left it overnight 20:23:39 Xach: if you want to put it somewhere I can grab it, I can provide a download location. 20:23:57 Fade: I'll put something somewhere. 20:24:01 but then i accidentally deleted it instead of a git repository 20:24:10 haha 20:24:47 I also did a stupid thing during upgrading ubuntu, and now had to fix it with some live cd 20:25:03 (Does anyone know about this UUID business to name partitions?) 20:25:24 tcr: what do you want to know? 20:25:31 What's it for? 20:25:47 -!- repeteke [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:25:48 it's the way the hardware identifies the partition, as opposed to the way your OS does. 20:25:49 it's a unique identifier used to assemble LVM groups. 20:26:03 gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:08 Not just LVM as it seems 20:26:33 UUID has nothing to do with hardware 20:26:35 at some point in the near-recent past debian derivatives started using them i the fstab for all locally connected disk. 20:26:38 so that it can mount the right partition even if it has different mapping in /dev/ 20:26:48 like sda/hda 20:26:50 UUID is a number written to the partition 20:26:54 right 20:27:00 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1528.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:43 it's generated at filesystem creation time. It's used because device names aren't stable these days, what with USB drives and such things. 20:27:52 Well I was stupid enough to change the filesystem of /boot, and seemingly changing the filesystem changes that UUID 20:28:14 foom: Ah ok that makes sense 20:28:23 it's a good feature, but it's a bit of a pain to manually administer. :) 20:29:07 there's a utility to list the UUID's of the various partitions on a disk 20:29:14 but atm, I can't remember what it's called. 20:29:19 blkid 20:30:06 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:27 Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.18.168] has joined #lisp 20:32:39 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:33:00 Xach: is there a "random article" feature? 20:33:12 stassats`: Hah. No. I can add that though. 20:33:21 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-173.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:33:42 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.45.204] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:34:35 *stassats`* is now killing his precious time by reading it 20:35:26 hmm 20:35:58 searching for 'perl' nets much funny. 20:36:21 http://xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=perl+whore turned up an article i hadn't seen before 20:36:43 ditto 20:40:55 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 20:41:20 Xach: Did you publish your code for the search? 20:41:28 TDT: no. 20:41:53 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 20:41:57 Are you planning on it? hehe. Interested to see if you implemented any text mining concepts with the search. 20:42:05 felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 20:42:15 (spent the last 2.5ish years in data/text mining stuff) 20:42:16 TDT: no. i can describe in a couple sentences what i did. 20:42:22 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:43:00 TDT: i split the articles up into words and called those "terms". each term had an associated bit-vector with the same number of bits as there were articles. so if bit N is set in the vector of term "FOOBAR", then article N has that term in it. 20:43:02 _mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 20:43:25 nice trick 20:43:32 TDT: then for a serch for "FOOBAR BAZ", i BIT-AND the vectors for "FOOBAR" and "BAZ" together to produce a bitmap of documents with both terms. 20:43:32 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["http://b.lowh.net/billitch"] 20:43:58 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:44:10 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:10 after ANDing all term vectors, sweep through to get the set bits, and use that to lookup document info. 20:44:19 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 20:44:27 negation is a matter of using BIT-ANDC2 instead of BIT-AND. 20:44:44 Interesting, so you're dealing with the vector space of your terms, so you are using various text mining concepts. 20:44:52 Good way for finding similar terms as well 20:44:55 this only works because i have a small number of documents, and i don't mind giving up some features. 20:45:31 i'm also not extremely pleased with breaking documents into terms, but at least a search for IF* works... 20:45:57 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:19 -!- Hergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:33 Xach: how many terms did you end up having? 20:47:39 Hergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:41 ryepup1: about 40,000 or so 20:48:11 i'd guess 10% or more is junk that a smarter parser would fix 20:48:25 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:49:07 stassats`: bookmark http://xach.com/naggum/articles/random 20:49:09 -!- Guthur_ is now known as Guthur 20:49:16 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 20:49:29 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-22-246.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:36 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:50:36 when I first started sniffing around lisp Erik's c.l.l posts were the milepost that indicated I was on the right path. 20:50:56 i'm happy they're condensed in this way. 20:51:49 nwbie_ [i=512bea19@gateway/web/freenode/x-fkqfzemosyluuzat] has joined #lisp 20:51:50 Xach: thanks, and it'd be nice to have title="subject" on next/prev links 20:52:01 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:46 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 oh, and grouping by threads in the index 20:56:03 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:09 grouping by threads isn't likely in the short term 20:56:18 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:57:04 so Naggum stopped posting in 2004? 20:57:16 felideon: Yes. 20:57:31 felideon: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/04a410ab.html 20:57:44 Stopped posting to comp.lang.lisp. He posted a lot to Norwegian-language groups after that. 20:57:56 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:58:18 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:32 that's a particularly tragic development. 20:58:34 wow, just like that 20:58:37 francogrex [n=user@111.122-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:59:01 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:06 he was an acerbic poster, but he was usually right. it was never clear to me why people hated him. 20:59:10 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:59:14 hi, I've been told that the best language is the one that fits best for the problem at hand... But how do you get to know which language it is? Does it assume that one knows any existing language? 20:59:24 Fade: After all, who is loved more than someone who is usually right? :) 20:59:31 :) 20:59:41 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:54 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:00:09 -!- r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:12 Ri- [n=ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:16 anyhow, the group definitely suffered for his absence, imo 21:00:19 nwbie_: Learning about a lot of different tools can help. 21:00:28 Do you want to crash your system? try this: (trace list) 21:00:42 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:01:03 Xach: can't it become an obsession? 21:02:13 can any of you recommend a public news server accessible by nntp? 21:02:13 nwbie_: i think most people just bend whatever they know best to the problem at hand, and usually the problems they're solving aren't so hard that they can't get away with it 21:02:31 nwbie_: Yes, lots of people waste time learning about new tools and not actually using any of them. 21:03:50 nwbie_: That isn't a good reason for someone who wants to be good at problem-solving to not learn new tools. 21:04:49 is it possible to get a notification of any file system modification under a directory in linux? 21:04:56 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.18.168] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:58 do languages actually solve problems or just facilitate the expression of its solutions? 21:05:00 yes levente - inotify 21:05:00 or shall I regularly scan the directory recursively? 21:05:00 levente_meszaros: yes 21:05:09 nwbie_: people solve problems using languages. 21:05:13 does iolib support that? 21:05:16 inotify will save a lot of work. 21:05:22 (for the machine) 21:05:26 Isn't there a successor (already) to inotify? 21:05:40 maybe, but inotify is probably already there. 21:05:43 Dawgmatix_, Fade any CL lib to do that? 21:05:58 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:27 levente - am sorry - dont know if any cl library exposes that - what are you trying to do ? 21:06:31 I _think_ iolib has inotify support. 21:06:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:07:09 Dawgmatix_, run the test suite of all systems depending on a certain library whenever I push a patch upstream on dwim.hu 21:07:43 for that I would like to be notified if the darcs repo changes 21:07:43 push is done through ssh 21:07:47 majhool: but then there's always the thought of wether that bending effort was really necessary and if there wouldn't have been an straighter way to do it... 21:07:54 maybe not 21:08:32 nwbie_: That reminds me of a story I heard repeated by Robert Rodriguez on a DVD commentary track. 21:08:38 fe[nl]ix, any chance to support on inotify in iolib? 21:08:54 Xach: explain :) 21:08:54 nwbie_: yep, but hopefully by the time that sets in you've written so much code that it's too late to change the language :) 21:09:30 majhool: the point of no return :) 21:09:43 nwbie_: He talked about an art class where the whole class was graded on their final project, but half the students had to submit a project once a week and half could wait until the end of the semester to submit their work. 21:10:14 the once-a-week projects started out terrible but got better rapidly, while the people who could take a few months to "perfect" their projects did much worse in the end. 21:10:32 so, dicking around without any pressure to produce something can be a waste of time. 21:11:13 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:21 Xach: or, the power of incremental refinement 21:11:51 Ed Catmull said something similar in a talk I saw recently. Everyone has to show something frequently (it might have been once a day or once a week), and get over the embarrassment of showing an imperfect product. 21:12:03 Adamant: the people who had all semester didn't take advantage of that power. 21:12:06 nwbie the more you program the easier it will be to pick up new languages anyway, as long as your always willing to put in that initial effort 21:12:21 Xach: which is the point 21:12:26 levente_meszaros: there's some C code here: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-inotify.html 21:12:38 that you may be able to use to provide the required facility. 21:12:42 they weren't doing real incremental refinement because they got no feedback 21:12:57 Guthur: but what prompts one to pick up a new language? the trend? 21:12:58 the problem that 'long in the tooth' programmers might face is that they could initially write it in their old language quicker until they get up to speed with the new 21:13:22 nwbie: possibly, I picked up CL out of interest 21:13:47 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:54 I was experimenting with some new languages and happened upon CL, and kind of got hooked hehe 21:14:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:14:15 Fade, thanks, but I guess I will burn some CPU instead, polling every hour is not that bad 21:14:26 true, Adamant. Unfortunately that's only applicable to intelectual works as opposed to material works... I.e. you can't build a bridge by refinements :) 21:14:36 levente_meszaros: *nod* 21:14:50 levente_meszaros: how do you plan to use it ? 21:15:07 nwbie_: if you learn about 5 paradigms of programming and then maybe 3-6 subparadigms that are common among all the major paradigms, you can literally learn any programming language in a very short period 21:15:29 of course, becoming a expert in any language takes lots of use 21:15:53 fe[nl]ix, setup a callback on a list of directories that would be called whenever some file changes underneath (recursively) 21:16:04 I actually don't need the details 21:16:12 so a simple callback would do 21:16:25 Adamant: and what would be those paradigms? 21:16:44 nwbie_: the main ones would be logic, functional, OO, imperative, and dataflow 21:16:57 for the other 3-6, you will get endless arguments 21:17:10 fe[nl]ix, automated testing based on darcs pushes 21:17:21 test the library and all dependent libraries 21:17:35 suffice it to say understanding concurrency and parallelism is really important and will probably only get more important 21:18:06 understanding the typing spectrum is also important 21:18:29 beyond that, it's basically a bunch of arguments :P 21:18:56 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-24-17.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:19:47 pr [n=pr@p579CAF5E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:05 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:57 Adamant: whhich would be a language that embeds the dataflow paradigm? 21:22:16 nwbie_: SISAL is commonly held up as one 21:22:19 there are others 21:22:38 for logic, Prolog and Mercury are generally the standard-bearers 21:22:38 anynore one can give me some little bit of Allego techsupport? 21:23:01 anyone* 21:23:21 i run from the repl and things work but running from an immage i get: read bytes 9 resulted in error (code 11): Resource temporarily unavailable. 21:23:41 for some things.. ewxpecially file access 21:24:16 spn [n=spn@adsl-68-122-28-85.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:07 i found googling someone compaining on the swank list of the same issue http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2007-May/014012.html 21:25:22 erm slime list 21:25:47 but it is an allegro issue.. looks to be image vs repl as well 21:26:05 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:27:04 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:27:14 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-111-74.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 21:28:35 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:48 Wraithan [n=wraithan@li76-252.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:54 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:29:14 stassats`: i added the titles on the links. 21:30:05 Adamant: what's the typing spectrum? 21:30:11 trittweiler [n=rittweil@atradig114.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 21:30:38 dmiles_afk: if you have allegro, ask Franz for support. That's what you pay for :) 21:30:55 they dont pay someone to sit in here 21:30:58 :( 21:31:13 dmiles_afk: You're not paying someone to sit in here either. 21:31:20 maybe he should. 21:31:27 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 21:31:33 I think I would be perfectly happy to be paid to sit in here. 21:32:26 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:32:40 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:32:55 sykopomp: if i could, i would pay you ;) 21:33:22 i found a workarround at least now 21:34:09 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:21 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.45.204] has joined #lisp 21:36:48 what i'd like to know is ho much it cost someone to port PAIP to SubLisp (the one that cyc uses) 21:37:32 in PAIP, ch4 there is a function definition called achieve that uses another function called apply-op and the function apply-op uses in its body the function achieve! if any cunt tells me PAIP is not difficult he's getting a smack in the face. 21:37:48 actually just the DCG requirements so i can yeild http://opensim4opencog.googlecode.com/files/E2C.html 21:37:50 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:37:50 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:06 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 21:38:12 francogrex: That is an advanced idea known as recursion. 21:38:33 xach; that's not how i learned recursion 21:38:39 francogrex: I guess you were educated stupid. 21:38:49 well you asked for it 21:38:59 *froydnj* files away "educated stupid" for later use 21:39:07 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:39:08 *francogrex* smacks xach in the face and shutters his teeth 21:39:10 *hefner* associates that phrase with the "time cube" guy 21:39:15 nwbie_: look at dynamic vs. static typing, strong vs. weak typing, and a bunch of other stuff 21:39:24 hefner: because that is where it is from 21:39:35 levente - sorry got distracted somewhere else but you could use incrond - http://inotify.aiken.cz/?section=incron&page=why&lang=en 21:39:38 *Adamant* is also a fan of the term 21:39:39 oh ok, Adamant 21:40:24 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:40:29 i'd pay 100$ for someone to do it 21:41:13 nwbie_: look at the whole spectrum of typing from barely any types at all to the really fancy type systems, and understand there are a lot of axes to it, it's not just 'strong vs. weak' or 'static vs. dynamic' 21:42:00 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:18 Adamant: Which is the de facto language for "really fancy type system"? 21:42:20 ok, the timecube.com site is a little weird 21:42:29 felideon: ML? 21:42:59 DrForr: Ah 21:43:03 felideon: ML, Haskell, and stuff with even fancier systems built from those two 21:43:11 Dawgmatix_, thx, but I prefer a lisp solution, having more control on what is watched and what is not, etc. maybe I'm too addicted to the REPL... 21:43:37 e.g. Epigram, Agda, and others for Haskell, and Coq for ML 21:43:56 levente - you can make incrond send your app a signal :) 21:44:05 She 21:44:07 really fancy type systems start becoming equivalent to proof systems 21:44:37 I see 21:45:08 Adamant: and each typing system still has its place in the world? 21:45:21 antoni [n=user@32.pool85-53-24.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:45:26 nwbie_: there are a lot of blades out there in the world 21:45:39 you don't use a machete to butter your toast 21:45:53 or a butter knife to hack through jungle 21:45:59 if you have the option 21:46:06 depends on what you are doing at the time 21:46:16 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 21:46:46 yes, but I doubt there are really as many kinds of blades as there are programming languages... :/ 21:47:05 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:47:07 nwbie_: well, there are a lot. check wiki if you doubt :P 21:47:16 Adamant: You use a light saber to slice your bagels though. Toasts simultaneously 21:47:27 and the knives and etc. behind them are meant for different things 21:47:35 http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/lightsaber-5.jpg 21:47:51 felideon: I don't have a lightsaber so I will take your word for it :P 21:48:26 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:49:26 -!- antoni [n=user@32.pool85-53-24.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:33 Adamant do you make any use of such? :) 21:49:49 soupdragon: lightsabers? 21:50:02 supertyped languages 21:50:02 sorry man, no access to them :P 21:50:14 soupdragon: Haskell and ML is about as high as I go yet 21:50:20 ok 21:50:46 I'd like to play with Agda and the rest, but that probably won't happen until later 21:50:50 lol, Adamant 21:51:00 also, anytime stuff starts getting like a proof system 21:51:13 it starts to take a LOT of time and thought to get stuff done 21:51:27 more than it does in the Lisps, ML, or Haskell even 21:52:04 curious, I had always thought the higher the level of the language, the more productive you were... 21:52:27 there is a #agda 21:52:30 on this server 21:53:11 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:53:31 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 21:53:38 what is a way to "step" inside a function while it is executing and perform the execution line by line (not trace)? 21:53:49 clhs step 21:53:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_step.htm 21:53:57 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:02 postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-72-219.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:54:05 i'll be damned; there is a "step" 21:54:29 >:-} You'll be, miscreant! 21:54:50 ysph [n=user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:51 pr_ [n=pr@p579CABAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:47 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-189-216.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:59 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051047213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:57:29 prxq [n=mommer@f051047213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:58:06 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:00:04 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 22:00:10 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-115-76.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:31 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.49.84] has joined #lisp 22:04:04 well the hyperspecs don't give examples of "stepping" 22:04:19 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:04:21 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 22:04:39 francogrex: And you cannot try it yourself? 22:04:57 (+ 1 2 (step (* 3 (+ 4 5)))) 22:05:43 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06:18 ASau`` [n=user@77.246.231.66] has joined #lisp 22:06:47 can one (step a-function) or just a "form" , 22:07:00 What does clhs say? 22:07:44 When you read a page, you should try to find what it says, not what it doesn't say! 22:07:48 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.66.49.84] has quit [] 22:08:00 well then that's not what i want 22:08:08 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:08:11 I wanted something like gdb's step 22:08:11 What does clsh step say? 22:08:23 davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:25 step doesn't step a function. 22:08:30 in gdb. 22:08:49 it enters a function yes 22:08:53 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.134.146] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:59 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:09:07 francogrex: CL:STEP will enter in function calls too. 22:09:11 Guthur_ [n=Michael@host86-152-185-30.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:11 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 22:10:15 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 22:10:31 ok 22:13:13 then I have to wrap (step) around all functions in the program 22:13:15 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:24 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-167-16.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:25 helps me understand them better 22:13:35 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-167-16.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:02 francogrex: have you read the clhs step page? 22:14:23 yes 22:14:30 What is there in the see also section? 22:14:47 trace is no good 22:15:04 Xach: Love the random feature! 22:15:08 Have you tried (+ 1 2 (step (* 3 (+ 4 5)))) ? 22:15:08 not as good as step I mean 22:15:14 yes 22:15:27 Did you have to wrap the call to + in a step call? 22:15:33 (the second +) 22:16:29 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:47 it bugged a little at (* 3 (+ 4 5)) is not of type NUMBER. 22:16:53 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:17:19 looks like a list 22:17:33 Xach: I'm not sure about it but have you considered to let the reader score postings? 22:17:53 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-141-209-156.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:03 francogrex: you did something wrong. 22:18:27 pjb pasted "stepping in clisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93299 22:19:09 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.115.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:39 konr [n=user@187.88.115.130] has joined #lisp 22:20:10 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-22-246.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:20:37 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.231.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:08 francogrex annotated #93299 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93299#1 22:21:19 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93299#1 22:21:58 Either these implementations are broken, or you haven't proclaimed the right debugging level. 22:22:21 i doubt they are broken 22:22:23 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:22:24 You should put: (declaim (OPTIMIZE (SAFETY 3) (SPACE 0) (SPEED 0) (DEBUG 3))) ; in your init file. 22:22:30 works in ECL 22:23:09 in *your* ECL 22:24:13 and you need a higher debug level in sbcl, but this won't retroactively apply to the already compiled functions 22:24:35 Yes, that's why you should put that declaim in the init file. 22:24:46 So that all your functions are always compiled with debug 3... 22:25:02 well, SBCL will unlikely recompile + 22:25:43 stassats`: we expected it to step over * and +, but to do it. 22:26:16 above i .eclrc doesnt' seem to have an effect 22:26:27 let's try sbcl 22:26:41 what's your ecl version? 22:26:43 or just clisp which works well, as demonstrated... 22:26:49 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:27:04 and declaim optimize won't help you with _this_ example 22:27:06 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:27:06 ecl-8.12.0 22:27:10 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:27:16 sbcl-1.29 something 22:27:24 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 22:27:30 1.0.29 22:27:31 i've ecl 9.12.1, and it works alright 22:27:42 probaly that's why 22:28:36 try (defun foo (x) (declare (optimize debug)) (print 10) (print x)) (step (foo 10)) in SBCL 22:29:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:29:29 that works ok 22:30:22 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-188-228.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:31:15 not in ecl though, it crashes it 22:31:43 You definitely need to upgrade ecl. 22:32:06 and SBCL also has interpreter mode, it might be better for stepping 22:32:55 pjb; sure, but i kinda got familiar to that good old version, feels cozy 22:33:15 i'm not really sure, i haven't used neither sbcl's interpreter, nor single stepping seriously 22:33:41 i guess step is more used in gdb 22:33:56 It's all there is in gdb... In CL TRACE is more useful. 22:34:02 i use "think hard" debugging 22:34:13 and PRINT. 22:34:22 gdb has trace too. :) 22:34:40 does it? if so, it's obscure 22:34:43 Which, perhaps not too surprizingly, is also what is used by most of the hackers interviewed in "Coders at Work"... 22:34:59 I think you spell it: break foo / commands / continue / end 22:35:13 pjb: what "thinking", 22:35:14 It doesn't print the arguments and results... 22:35:15 ? 22:35:29 francogrex: PRINT. 22:35:47 ah, I wuld have thought thinking hard 22:35:54 Well, that too :-) 22:36:02 I think it does display the args, but maybe I'm misremembering. I'm not at a gdb prompt right now. 22:36:32 ISTR having used specific print commands to print the arguments in the break... 22:36:36 If not, add "info locals" before continue. And use "finish" instead of "continue" to finish the stackframe. 22:36:43 (and print the result value) 22:37:01 foom; ok 22:37:06 -!- trittweiler [n=rittweil@atradig114.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:38:36 now how to i get y head around this program that uses every defined function in every defined function, in every defined function etc etc?? 22:38:46 *felideon* is getting used to the "think hard" debugging in Lisp, since I don't know how to debug/step/trace yet :) 22:39:09 or haven't tried to at least 22:39:29 francogrex: what are you talking about? 22:39:41 -!- drwhat [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:48 -!- nwbie_ [i=512bea19@gateway/web/freenode/x-fkqfzemosyluuzat] has quit ["Page closed"] 22:39:53 A function that uses every defined function is probably good to be erased. 22:40:08 necroforest pasted "euclidean" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93304 22:40:19 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 22:40:29 can someone look at this compiler error that lisppaste just pasted? 22:40:35 I can't figure out what's wrong with the code 22:40:50 mapcar returns a list, you can't add numbers with lists 22:40:53 pjb: not if every function is like that then all the program is good to be erased and you have NULL at the end 22:41:26 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:28 necroforest: mapcar takes a list, not a vector too. 22:41:33 -!- postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-72-219.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 22:41:37 pjb, the input is a list 22:41:38 necroforest: if you want to add up all numbers in a list, use REDUCE 22:41:43 hmm 22:41:47 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:51 necroforest: then don't call the parameter VEC! 22:41:55 :( 22:42:07 e.g. (reduce #'+ list-of-numbers) 22:42:15 it's a "vector" in the sense of a "vector in R^n" 22:42:29 reduce works on sequences, so you could write (reduce (function +) sequence-of-numbers) 22:42:35 ok 22:42:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:55 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:43:19 (reduce #'+ list-of-numbers :key (lambda (x) (* x x))) 22:43:23 since i want to sum their squares, would something like (reduce (lambda (x y) (+ x (* y y))) my-list) work 22:43:43 (reduce #'+ ... 22:44:16 necroforest: what i've pasted would work 22:46:05 francogrex annotated #93304 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93304#1 22:46:24 what stassats suggested 22:46:39 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:46:53 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 22:46:59 I installed the debian package cl-irc, but in clisp when I "(require :cl-irc)" I get "*** - LOAD: A file with name CL-IRC does not exist" 22:47:20 i suggest not to use mapcar, since you'll unnecessarily cons a new list 22:47:47 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:48:38 jamesstanley: (require :cl-irc "/path/to/cl-irc.lisp") 22:48:56 ok 22:49:03 i guess you should use ASDF 22:49:09 jamesstanley: but it is possible that debian uses asdf, so you'd use (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :cl-irc) 22:49:26 Or course, you'd have first to load asdf... 22:49:33 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 22:49:39 [1]> (require :asdf) 22:49:39 NIL 22:49:42 is that what should happen? 22:49:49 sounds OK 22:49:52 ok 22:50:02 I never use require with only one argument, since it is implementation dependant... 22:50:06 *** - component "cl-irc" not found 22:50:07 I expect more: ("ASDF") 22:50:09 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:13 When i do the asdf:oos thing I get that 22:50:25 francogrex: that's if it wasn't already loaded 22:50:28 You will have to configure asdf:*central-registry*. 22:50:29 -!- Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:50:44 ight 22:50:48 if that's a clisp from debian, it should use CLC 22:50:56 ok 22:51:05 Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:51:08 and everything should be configured, i'm guessing, since i've never used CLC 22:51:11 Didn't they drop clc yet? 22:51:35 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:42 the cl-irc page said it would be as simple as (require :cl-irc) 22:52:06 jamesstanley, on SBCL, REQUIRE uses ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM 22:52:14 pjb: doesn't look like, clisp still depends on it 22:52:14 ok 22:52:22 Adlai: it didn't work in sbcl either when i tried 22:52:48 ASDF needs the *central-registry* set up before it'll work 22:53:04 why can't apt do that for me? 22:53:06 maybe it's to time to try clbuild? 22:53:12 minion: clbuild? 22:53:14 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 22:56:13 I downloaded clbuild off darcs 22:56:31 there is no README 22:56:58 -!- Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:31 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 22:57:47 OK it seems the "clbuild" file is a shell script 22:57:52 (why isn't it +x in darcs?) 22:58:38 jamesstanley: can you read doc/ instead? 22:58:43 well it was html 22:58:53 But anyway it seems to be working now 22:58:53 is that a problem? 22:58:59 I prefer plaintext 22:59:36 I use links when I want to read HTML documentation without leaving the terminal 22:59:56 w3m index.html -dump > README 23:00:30 jamesstanley: will you keep complaining :D 23:00:38 i've stopped, haven't i? :P 23:01:02 look at this: (defvar *state* nil)... then within a function (defun etc etc (setf *state* something)), when evaluted, *state* remains nil! 23:01:31 did the world go insane today? 23:01:41 maybe it's only you? 23:01:59 is something NIL? did you rebind *state*? 23:02:24 jamesstanley: ok, clbuild is a nice tool and i don't know about the docs among the downloaded files but there are some online tutorials that i know of, i can link them if the docs aren't enough 23:02:25 I mean within the function all works, just at the end when one types *state* result: nil 23:02:28 Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:02:34 rebind I don't think so 23:02:37 kenanb: it's ok 23:02:41 something is not nil 23:02:47 francogrex: then it has been rebound. 23:02:48 francogrex: you didn't provide the whole function 23:03:42 http://norvig.com/paip/gps1.lisp 23:03:51 minion: advice on compiler? 23:03:52 #11907: Looking for a compiler bug is the strategy of LAST resort. LAST resort. 23:04:10 listen to minion 23:04:14 why compiler? 23:04:16 Xach, http://l1sp.org/pcl/loop gives me a "502 Bad Gateway" 23:04:30 http://l1sp.org works. 23:04:51 TR2N [i=email@89-180-238-80.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 23:05:23 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 23:05:42 francogrex: *state* is being rebound in GPS 23:05:44 Good morning! 23:05:53 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:06:00 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 23:06:06 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-14.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:26 Good morning Vietnam! 23:06:28 ;-) 23:06:35 jamesstanley: btw, cl programmers usually don't rely on apt for cl downloads because everyone prefers the latest sources from repos, clbuild is nice because it is very good at keeping the libs up to date 23:06:48 stassats`: i did te tracings, nothing shows 'nil though 23:06:49 i'm not a lisp programmer ;) 23:06:55 i'm a c programmer trying to learn lisp 23:07:09 anyway gtg now in 50 seconds 23:07:13 jamesstanley: you'll be, hopefully ;) 23:07:24 30 sec 23:07:28 28 23:07:34 21 23:07:52 7 4 3 23:07:54 -!- francogrex [n=user@111.122-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:02 francogrex: nil is the value of the previous binding... to late 23:08:05 kenanb: out of interest, what other than emacs is written in lisp? 23:08:29 -!- Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:08:29 -!- sytse [i=sytse@2001:610:1908:8000:21e:8cff:fe1e:77af] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:08:29 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:08:29 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.45.204] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:08:29 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:08:29 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has 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irc.freenode.net] 23:08:34 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:08:34 (and even emacs is written in c at the bottom) 23:08:34 (afaik... :O) 23:10:06 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 ASau`` [n=user@77.246.231.66] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 prxq [n=mommer@f051047213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-111-74.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 Ri- 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[n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 nuba [n=nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 re-l [n=re-l@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 Vonunov [n=jack@99.58.1.192] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@99.54.133.197] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 sytse [i=sytse@2001:610:1908:8000:21e:8cff:fe1e:77af] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:24 jamesstanley: ok, you probably couldn't get pjb's answer: "have a look at http://www.franz.com/success/" 23:12:34 ok 23:13:23 maxima, a computer algebra system, is written in Common Lisp 23:13:30 ooh i was using that this morning 23:13:39 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 23:13:56 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:57 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051047213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["good night"] 23:15:46 jamesstanley: i think the best success stories in the list are the Naughty Dog, which is a legendary company among the play-station fanatics, and the software that is linked as Izware (the name of the software is mirai and works on allegro) 23:18:30 if youre a space buff then theres no bigger success than - http://www.franz.com/success/customer_apps/scheduling/nasa.lhtml 23:18:49 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 23:19:27 I think another great success story is http://piano.aero/ 23:19:29 jamesstanley: mirai is the 3d modeling tool that kicked ass for a long time in the cg societies and still in use in some huge projects, gollum character in lotr series is modeled in mirai by Bay Raitt. despide the fact that the software seems to be dead for a long time now, it still is a great competitor to the other modeling tools. 23:19:56 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [] 23:20:31 "it's not dead, it just smells funny" 23:20:37 kenanb - that statement is a bit dated now. ive used mirai in the past and sadly the other tools have caught up - most notably ZBrush. 23:22:32 Dawgmatix_: zbrush is not a subdivision modeling tool, it's a sculpting tool, and it is a great sculpting tool, yes 23:22:53 kenanb :) zbrush has subdivision and armatures 23:23:18 and it allows you the same flexibility of toggling between subdivision levels 23:24:42 Dawgmatix_: but i don't think they are in the same class, every modeling tool has subdivision modeling option nowadays, but i don't think they mostly are the perfect solution to subdivision modeling, but i didn't very much work on zbrush, so you could be right, i don't know. 23:25:05 http://www.pixologic.com/zclassroom/homeroom/ - check the videos out .. 23:25:29 and decide for yourself :) 23:25:58 Dawgmatix_: anyway, the fact is there are still so many cg artists out there who repeatedly talk about the good old mirai ;) 23:26:08 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:26:22 nostalgia will do that to you ;) 23:26:37 Dawgmatix_: probably ;) 23:26:56 dont mean to belittle mirai or how much ahead of its time it was 23:27:17 well if gollum was done with it it can't be half bad 23:27:30 merely mean to point out that the competition has caught up and in in some cases exceeded the past achievements. 23:28:48 guthur - lord of the rings 1 came out in 2001. and if we factor in production time lets say initial gollum was done in ~1999. I fully concede there was nothing as flexible and fluid back then 23:29:49 Guthur_: it is still a great design solution for subdivision modeling i think, the thing is nowadays every modeling tool comes with multiple modeling options + sculpting + bla bla 23:29:50 -!- Guthur_ is now known as Guthur 23:30:08 ya, I use blender personally 23:30:17 I only dabble mind 23:30:33 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229118176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:30:38 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:30:54 Guthur: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubgvomRTW80 23:32:22 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:32:50 Guthur: this is a nice video on features of mirai, but as i said before, this is done in subdivision modeling style and by bay raitt, bay raitt is a man who is capable of doing the same model in ms paint :D 23:34:55 Dawgmatix_: you are probably right that it is not a very good idea to compare mirai and maya now :) 23:35:15 the trouble with language-surfing is having to rewrite the library you rewrote the month before :) 23:36:05 -!- felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has left #lisp 23:36:07 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:29 maya hasnt changed much in the meanwhile actually ) 23:36:30 :) 23:36:56 if youre looking for state of the art its been zbrush for mesh creation and softimage otherwise :) 23:37:32 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 23:37:46 that vid was pretty sweet 23:38:16 and there is the GOAL by Naughty Dog, http://ynniv.com/blog/2005/12/lisp-in-games-naughty-dogs-jax-and.html 23:39:14 Best to consider how effective CL can be for you in your software projects 23:39:38 the legendary company is known by the gameplay areas of unlimited space and great interaction in their playstation games, which is done by a custom lisp written by the boss of the company whom is a lisp hacker. 23:40:22 I think CL needs some new success stories. 23:40:22 hefner, memo from fe[nl]ix: ping 23:40:44 minion, memo for fe[nl]ix: png. 23:40:45 Remembered. I'll tell fe[nl]ix when he/she/it next speaks. 23:40:55 www.xach.com/naggum/ is written in CL! 23:41:02 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:13 stassats`: and I'm using it right now! ..instead of doing something productive. 23:41:15 -!- davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42:31 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-205-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:42:48 speaking of naggum heres a quote from him - "The past is not more important than the future, despite what your culture has taught you. Your future observations, conclusions, and beliefs are more important to you than those in your past ever will be. The world is changing so fast the balance between the past and the future has shifted" - thanks xach :) 23:43:33 hehe I wanted to say something like that about looking at past projects 23:43:45 would not have been nearly as elegantly put though 23:46:05 brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:46:16 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:01 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.106] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:50:02 Adlai: thanks, fixed 23:51:04 kenanb: is mirai closed? 23:51:17 Xach, you're welcome, thank you for l1sp.org :) 23:51:47 as I get older my code to interact with external systems starts to look more and more like replay attacks :) 23:52:16 kenanb: where did you get to work with mirai? 23:52:19 lukego: isn't that how the pop load balancer worked? 23:54:12 Xach: I meant these days I'd write an SMTP client like (format t "HELO luke~%MAIL FROM:~A~%RCPT TO:~A~%DATA~%~A~%.~%"). program design becomes "how many format strings do I need to tell the other systems what they need to hear" :) 23:54:46 heh 23:55:58 case in point: to tell an NF_NETLINK socket that I want it to bind to the IP protocol, I could (a) port my Erlang bit-syntax code or (b) write a binding to the standard klunky C library or (c) send exactly these bytes: #(28 0 0 0 2 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 8 0 1 0 3 0 0 2) 23:56:21 Ralith: it is not closed, i think it is lost attention because of the high prices, i guess the cause of high prices is that it comes on top of the whole allegro cl environment and that means people who pay for mirai also paying for the allegro cl somehow, it was not a fact when the other modelers had high prices as well, but when the other competitors prices dropped to 2k, mirai was a bit too pricy to work on. izware bought the company nichimen, which develops 23:57:22 kenanb: ...if it's not closed, how are they charging money? 23:57:31 I'm also glad that I wrote literal test-vectors in my Erlang code for the correct encoded representations. now I can lift the bytes out of the sources without even running it :) 23:58:06 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:58:15 new defnition of portability lukego ;) 23:58:47 tsuru: i don't have mirai myself, i had the chance to see the environment and play with it a bit on a friend of mine long time ago. 23:58:57 Dawg: good point - means I also don't have to revive ext:htonl from cmucl :)