00:00:05 Fare, yes. It's not stored that way, but in -this- specific case, that doesn't matter. 00:00:17 what I've wanted in CLOS is something like inheritance between generic functions (but not at the metaobject level), where methods can be shared between them 00:00:22 I'm failing to produce a concrete example 00:00:51 Adlai, my overall impression is that you need to come up with a simple, straightforward way to explain this difference and its implications. 00:01:03 but if replies are also sheeple objects themselves, maybe some prototype magic can mean one roles can be applicable to a family of replies 00:02:24 deepfire, this isn't very specific, but: Object X is applicable to method M. You can then make an object which is not a descendand of X also be applicable to the same method M without redefining X or M. 00:02:52 Adlai, i.e. CLONE? 00:03:10 something like if you have a family of drawing operations on a medium as generic functions, with some bookkeeping common to each of them which individually might make sense to implement as an :around method, except you need it in 20 different GFs 00:03:11 hefner: right now, they're just conses -- that's an implementation and MOP issue. 00:03:27 hefner, Sheeple doesn't have any semblance of a "Message MOP" yet, but that is the general direction I'd like to follow at some point. 00:03:41 But this is a mere obvious consequence of requirement that the interface you provide in Sheeple is consistent, no? 00:04:22 deepfire, CLONE is currently the only exported function which lets you do that. You could also (push (find-if #'the-role-i-want (sheeple::%object-roles X)) (sheeple::%object-roles other-object)) 00:04:39 sierinjs [n=sierinjs@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has joined #lisp 00:04:44 *sykopomp|work* doesn't recommend manipulating roles as first-class objects quite yet. 00:04:47 *hefner* imagines a CLOS design pattern to apply here, at the cost of efficiency 00:05:29 To clarify, the difference you spoke about is a required modification to the implementation of CLOS GF dispatch -- required for proper CLONE-aware dispatch? 00:06:00 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:18 I realise the desire to generalise it -- but honestly that'd be an awfully simpler approach to explain it. 00:06:44 that's an interesting question. I think it is required. 00:07:04 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:07:30 I guess you could just modify the method's specializers, though. 00:08:21 it'd be much messier without roles, though. 00:09:02 Adlai: my guess is also that you would need to insert weak pointers into CLOS's internal dispatch mechanism. 00:09:10 or something like that. 00:09:34 Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:37 You need something tangible and persistent to dispatch upon -- but it cannot be types, for the obvious reason, and it cannot be tied to object identity due to CLONE 00:09:41 hmm, my example still wasn't very good. that's why I don't trust ambitious frameworks. :) 00:10:02 hefner: well, Sheeple works pretty well so far :) 00:12:08 I guess my real question regarding Sheeple is why one should use it instead of rolling their own. 00:12:37 Adlai pasted "Rough description of Sheeple's applicable methods computation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93124 00:12:43 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Adios"] 00:12:56 hefner: why would you write your own if sheeple already does what you need? 00:13:00 hefner, well, I guess because it's an efficient, tested implementation of a recurring approach.. 00:13:05 why would I use Sheeple if I can write my own? 00:13:23 because you'd need to spend time writing your own. 00:13:42 why did you write Sheeple instead of using dto's object system? (why did dto write dto's object system instead of using Sheeple?) 00:14:00 hefner, dto's object system doesn't have multiple dispatch of methods 00:14:04 because dto's system did not do what I needed it to do. I originally considered using it. 00:14:31 Adlai: I believe it also does not do multiple inheritance. 00:14:57 nor does it support calling methods as if they were functions. 00:15:18 oh right, it's got Flavors-style SEND 00:15:22 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:27 more KR, I think 00:16:01 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 00:16:20 deepfire, hefner, does my "pseudocode" help explain the algorithm? 00:16:30 /quit/quit 00:16:32 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229111065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 00:17:22 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:00 yeah, it's kinda like normal CLOS, with the roles providing a layer of indirection 00:19:33 hi 00:20:00 what's up lisp peeps ? 00:20:04 hey dto, we're discussing prototype object systems :) 00:20:09 yes my computer honked 00:20:24 hanging out, tilting at windmills 00:20:38 svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 00:20:52 clon seems to work really well for what i'm doing with it, but yeah it's not really as general purpose as i'd like 00:21:01 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:28 dto: did you ever make your slot lookup faster? 00:21:29 i'd change several things if i did it over again, but i've already written so much clon stuff (several little games now) that it's too late. we'll all have to wait for CLON 2.0 00:21:40 -!- svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Client Quit] 00:21:45 hefner: i changed it to hash tables, and also did some caching of methods 00:21:54 and it did speed up 00:22:03 and i've been profiling and trying to optimize XE2 00:22:39 svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 00:22:40 but really i'm playing too much ps3 and ps2 to get much done 00:22:43 it's holiday vacation 00:23:11 -!- ViciousB [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:41 ViciousB [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:59 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-71-139-210-181.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:31 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10093.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:24:34 Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:41 ... I just found a share/common-lisp directory on my router... I wonder which packet added it ^^; 00:24:54 Adlai, yes it explains it very well and fits with my understanding of what you said. 00:26:22 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:26:26 vasuvi [n=vasuvi@pool-71-112-197-172.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:04 Is there any way to delete variables in LISP? As in "del foo" in Python or "undef bar" in Perl 00:27:18 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-103-62.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit ["nexus 6"] 00:27:20 makunbound 00:27:27 thanks! 00:27:50 clhs makunbound 00:27:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_makunb.htm 00:28:04 makunbound doesn't undo the special-ness of the variable, though. 00:28:13 for that you'll want to unintern the symbol. 00:28:43 deepfire, thank you. I guess the next step is to decompile that pseudocode into English, for the next time I have this discussion :) 00:29:12 hmm; guess I'll have to read up on what interning is... 00:29:14 Fare, any further thoughts about Sheeple? 00:29:22 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:25 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:33 vasuvi, uninterning is like deleting the actual symbol itself 00:29:46 Adlai: not right now, except that I've got to get a closer look at it. 00:29:48 -!- Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:49 makunbound just makes it have no value. 00:30:36 Adlai: so (if you're familiar with Perl), unbinding a variable would be the equivilent of setting its value to undef, where as uninterning would actually complete remove it from the symbol table? 00:31:03 vasuvi: that's about right. 00:31:23 yep. In CL, you have multiple symbol tables, called "packages", and you can unintern symbols from specific packages. 00:31:24 In fact Perl and Common Lisp are pretty similar is this regard. 00:31:32 ah, neat! 00:31:33 clhs unintern 00:31:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_uninte.htm 00:31:57 -!- svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:32:05 gigamonkey: it's eerie how similar perl and lisp are, sometimes. 00:32:06 Except that Common Lisp packages are a bit more declarative about what symbols inherit and import from other packages. 00:32:26 sykopomp|work: indeed. That's why I continue to have a soft spot in my heart for Perl. 00:32:31 svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 00:32:47 if you unintern an inherited/imported symbol, welcome to package hell! 00:32:58 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:15 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 00:33:19 (if you use CL, welcome to package hell) 00:34:05 Packages should have been more declarative. 00:34:22 packages should have been replaced long ago. 00:34:46 blah blah 00:35:54 packages should be more hierarchical 00:36:02 has anyone tried lexicons? 00:36:08 I bet Ron Garret has! 00:36:11 :P 00:36:20 and "Matt-with-a-surname" 00:36:38 who we are led to believe is Ron Garret's sith apprentice or something 00:36:52 *Adlai* stops referring to c.l.l 00:38:36 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:39:27 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has joined #lisp 00:39:52 anyone else got a solution to http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2010/01/maxwells-equations-of-software.html ? 00:42:20 -!- sierinjs [n=sierinjs@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:35 raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 00:44:29 -!- Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:44 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:31 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:57:08 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 01:01:47 gigamonkey: did you see your old, old getenv question? 01:01:58 poseidon [n=joe@ip70-161-210-129.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:16 -!- poseidon [n=joe@ip70-161-210-129.hr.hr.cox.net] has left #lisp 01:02:42 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 01:04:33 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 01:04:40 -!- jsoft 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joined #lisp 01:50:16 The good news, though, is that I have a total of 4 hours of CL seminars next week. 01:50:31 -!- pjb [n=t@118.Red-79-149-159.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:52:59 -!- amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:56:26 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-74-135.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:57:19 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:00:06 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-3-130.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:00:31 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-3-130.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:36 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:29 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:09:23 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:10:20 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] 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[n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:54 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:00 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:09 i asked this at #emacs and I am still waiting for answers so i 03:36:09 thought i should try it here as probably most of you use emacs. I want 03:36:09 to set up Flashcard for general use 03:36:09 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FlashCard other than default Japanese 03:36:12 setup and i was wondering if any of you might have usef it 03:36:38 used it* 03:39:06 nicdev: Ask a specific question, that's more likely to get a useful response. 03:39:35 For some reason slime-init-keymaps is being run at Emacs start and infecting every mode. Has anyone experienced this problem? 03:40:00 ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-10-203.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:40:13 how do i change the default configuration so that i can input 03:40:13 plain english text for the front and the back of the cards 03:41:51 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 03:42:22 chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has joined #lisp 03:43:05 is there any way to determinate the precision of an operation between vars that I know are going to be floats? 03:46:05 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:47:41 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:19 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:33 or may be a way to append "D0" to the value when it's assigned to the var... hehe... 03:54:31 what is it that you're trying to do 03:55:26 if you want to coerce a real to a double-float, you can do (float ze-real 0.0d0) 03:55:41 adeht: well... I have a couple of multiplications and substractions that need to have more precision, but they get rounded... 03:55:54 -!- TDT [n=dthole@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:19 hmmm... maybe that would work... I'll try that... 04:00:05 _3b`: you about? 04:04:25 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 04:04:47 adeht: great! it worked! thanks... :) 04:05:45 np 04:10:37 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-10-203.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:11:29 -!- jleija_ [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:15:31 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:09 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:19:21 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:24:02 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:33 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-200-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:42 ker2x [n=chatzill@AToulouse-753-1-8-209.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:27:51 Friendly greetings ! :) 04:29:21 i see a lot of list related projects that are not updated sinces years ... do that mean that they are stable ? or are they dead ? 04:29:43 s/list/lisp/ 04:29:46 Where are you seeing these? 04:29:50 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-227-178-89.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 04:30:39 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:15 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:19 here and there, from link found on cliki.net 04:31:45 is there any way to set every float to double precision? so I can avoid writing (float var 0.0d0) eeeeeverytime? 04:32:10 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:22 clhs *read-default-float-format* 04:32:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_def.htm 04:32:23 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8EF3.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:33 but even without this, it shouldn't usually be a big deal to make sure that the toplevel inputs are double-floats 04:34:16 but it seems to not respect the format with some operations... 04:34:45 ker2x: software is not an organism 04:35:18 chiiph: example? 04:35:20 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:28 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:41 adeht: (incf sum (* (getv vec1 i) (getv vec2 i))) 04:35:52 adeht: vec1 has an array 04:35:55 I don't know what getv is 04:36:39 why doesn't CL have support for a "computed" GO operator? because it would require keeping track of tags->addresses associations and efficiency concerns? or maybe because it would be trivial to emulate it with just LAMBDA? 04:36:42 getv is (elt (verts vec) i), and verts is an array of double-floats 04:37:37 chiiph: afaik, sum should be double-float after the operation, then 04:37:49 adeht: well... that didn't seem to happend... 04:38:01 chiiph: what implementation? 04:38:06 clhs throw 04:38:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_throw.htm 04:38:08 benny [n=benny@i577A8EF3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:38:15 ljames, catch/throw is a computed goto 04:38:25 ah 04:38:26 adeht: clisp 2.48 04:38:42 and what is sum before the operation? 04:39:50 ljames, note that your tags aren't protected by lexical scope anymore, although you can create unique objects (for example with (list nil)) and use those. 04:40:18 -!- lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-210-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:28 hmmm wait... I've assign 0.0 to sum, instead of 0.0d0 04:40:52 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-178-116.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:53 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 04:41:19 yep... that was it... 04:41:54 chiiph: interesting. clisp does lose precision in that case.. I didn't expect that (and sbcl doesn't disappoint).. should check the clhs 04:41:56 to get lexical scope one can use block/return-from? 04:42:09 yeah, but they're not computed 04:43:11 12.1.4.4 sez "The result of a numerical function is a float of the largest format among all the floating-point arguments to the function." 04:43:11 04:43:42 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:43:51 ah.. chiiph, try running clisp with -ansi 04:43:53 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-142-250.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:44:03 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-142-250.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:07 they should rename that option to -sane 04:44:47 adeht: and what would change that -ansi opt? 04:45:01 you would 04:45:13 uh.. kind of ;) 04:45:19 I don't understand your question 04:45:47 adeht: what effect does that option have? 04:46:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:46:21 clisp has its own lisp dialect which is similar to common lisp but not exactly 04:46:33 if you pass -ansi , it's even more similar to common lisp 04:47:10 oh... I see... 04:50:39 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:55 The reason I asked about this was because I noticed *CASE implementations in SBCL and CCL are lacking. For example, most C compilers when faced with someone switching on a value from n to m(n>m) range, they would implement it with a simple jump table, which means accessing the address from one array and jumping to it, which is quite fast. 04:51:56 SBCL and CCL both expand *CASE as a COND form, with each COND clause being an EQL test on the CASE clauses. For n clauses, this means at most n comparisons, which could be quite slow if someone had a 1 to 100 case, however, it seems it's possible to just make an array or hashtable whose values would be lambda expressions of those case forms, which would be a much more efficient implementation of such CASE-like constructs. 04:53:01 I suspect that's wrong 04:54:34 I would be surprised if the compiler didn't have knowledge of case to transform it to the expected efficient code 04:54:59 adeht, i checked the disassembly for both CCL and SBCL, it did match the macro expansion 04:55:03 it's just that the implementation has to provide macroexpansion 04:55:06 which means for 100 cases, 100 tests 04:55:07 JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:21 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439907.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:56:34 hmm, looks like it :/ 04:56:57 also checking SBCL's source code, it clearly generates cond's : (cond ,@(case-aux forms key-var nil nil))))) 04:57:27 oh well, it's not important as it's trivial for an user to just use his own implementation, not only that, it's very easy to do ;) 04:58:10 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:58:11 yeah, even in a more general case, could use a perfect hash table 04:58:12 I was going to write my own, but found someone else's implementation, so I didn't: http://paste.lisp.org/display/83487 04:58:48 I actually looked at that yesterday ;) 04:59:03 (not the paste, the perfect hash-table idea for case) 04:59:46 ah. There was a thread the other day on c.l.l about someone using a hashtable to implement a CASE-like macro which tested using EQUAL instead of EQL 04:59:56 read a bit of gperf, translated a bit to lisp (interesting that Bruno Haible co-wrote it..) from relatively verbose C++ 04:59:57 however the code expanded into a CASE from 0+ 05:00:15 which means it wasn't as efficient as it could be in some implementations 05:00:19 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:26 ljames: yes, TKP.. it reminded me (and Madhu apparently) of Naggum's with-hashed-identity 05:03:00 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:04:34 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:04:59 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:05:08 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:35 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 05:05:49 -!- nicdev [n=user@st401-104.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:07:48 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 05:08:05 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:18 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:10:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:12:43 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 05:13:10 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:03 -!- ker2x [n=chatzill@AToulouse-753-1-8-209.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 05:18:52 oh irony of c.l.l.. mdj lectures Madhu about denying the antecedent and in his next post he writes: "Had I said "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously" your statement would be correct. I did not however make any such category error." 05:18:52 05:22:15 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 05:24:58 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-250-148.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:28:30 pjb [n=t@103.Red-88-30-105.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:32 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:33:13 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 05:44:28 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:44 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:08 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:47:48 ysph [n=user@adsl-221-200-86.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:25 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.183] has joined #lisp 05:49:29 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Success] 05:57:18 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:58:38 Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@pool122-0100.bmts.com] has joined #lisp 05:59:58 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:04:20 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:07:29 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:13:29 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-241-176.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:23:53 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:25:32 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:30:08 bytecolor [n=user@32.156.83.238] has joined #lisp 06:30:50 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.156.83.238] has left #lisp 06:31:26 -!- macdice [n=user@222-152-88-82.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:54 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-29-170.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:35:06 this is probably known, but i'm seeing contribs failing to build 1.0.34.6 on x86-64 06:36:26 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.141.170] has quit ["leaving"] 06:37:13 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:11 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:40:04 aidalgol [n=user@114-134-7-63.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:40:04 ramus [n=ramus@99.23.128.54] has joined #lisp 06:40:16 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-22-246.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:40:28 -!- aidalgol [n=user@114-134-7-63.rurallink.co.nz] has left #lisp 06:40:28 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-223.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 06:40:53 -!- ramus is now known as ramus` 06:41:06 build using* 06:47:30 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:51:36 -!- amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:53:25 svn is so horrible :P .. i can't figure out who to bug, msg or mail or whatever .. http://paste.lisp.org/display/93135 06:53:46 (..they seem to have dropped split-sequence in place for cl-utilities..) 06:54:52 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-20-181.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:39 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:48 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:51 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 07:09:37 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 07:16:27 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:19:38 somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 07:22:31 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.207] has joined #lisp 07:24:08 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:24:12 does anyone know if CFFI has a "function pointer" type? 07:24:25 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:24:32 I'd like to avoid saying :pointer and counting on never running on an arch where they're not the same 07:28:46 luis: ^ 07:28:54 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 07:28:56 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.183] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:29:00 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.192] has joined #lisp 07:35:50 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:38:57 prxq [n=mommer@f052184154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:40:10 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:45:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:19 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.207] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:51:09 splittist [i=3ecba549@gateway/web/freenode/x-akuthkfwmwhjlluj] has joined #lisp 07:51:13 morning 07:56:49 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:56:56 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-68-191.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:07 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:52 good morning 08:01:42 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-173.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:02:13 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:32 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FD8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:41 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:03:34 dkcl [i=96d65e65@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 08:07:24 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:11 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:14:31 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:14:51 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:16:56 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:31 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:44 *splittist* is bitten once again by lack of focus-follows-intent in his window manager... 08:19:09 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 08:20:02 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:32 -!- iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 08:26:35 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:26:49 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:27:17 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:28:41 plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has joined #lisp 08:29:40 Good afternoon! 08:31:40 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:32:10 Hey plage. How is the seminar series prep going? And the fun stuff, of course (: 08:32:27 (you're missing some special weather) 08:33:29 hello plage 08:34:24 accessors tend to get broken when you need two of them, one for the verb version of a word, and one for the noun 08:34:40 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:35:18 DEBIT-CLIENT; 1) "deduct amount from client", or 2) "the client of this debit record" :-) 08:35:45 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FD8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 08:36:23 (defclass debit () ((client :accessor debit-client))) vs (defmethod debit-client (client amount) (decf (client-balance client) amount)) 08:36:38 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 08:37:30 also, what does WHEN do in the following: 08:37:53 splittist: I don't prepare seminars anymore :) 08:37:56 (defun debit-client (id amount &optional (when (now))) ..) ;-) 08:38:21 splittist: I have heard about the weather. 08:38:24 hey mvilleneuve 08:39:41 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:42:00 -!- dkcl [i=96d65e65@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["Page closed"] 08:42:17 partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 08:44:56 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 08:45:05 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:49:46 *p_l* is trapped in the twisted maze of Windows networking 08:50:20 j0be [n=chatzill@218-106-dsl.ipact.nl] has joined #lisp 08:50:53 Roonin [n=david@rounin.409.no] has joined #lisp 08:51:16 -!- Roonin [n=david@rounin.409.no] has left #lisp 08:51:26 I still had a question on generating technical documents from LISP, see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2026340/generation-pdf-documents-from-lisp as well. 08:51:31 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:51:40 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:55:09 -!- ysph [n=user@adsl-221-200-86.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:55:21 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f052184154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:56:56 derrida [n=derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 08:57:27 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:43 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:58:01 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:01:23 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:02:46 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:03:31 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:04:12 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:05:26 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:08:17 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:25 -!- Xantoz [n=user@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:09:00 Xantoz [n=user@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:10:44 j0be, i've posted an answer 09:15:59 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.207] has joined #lisp 09:17:03 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f754afe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:28 attila_lendvai: did you consider rtf? Or was the locking important for you? 09:21:03 imho, rtf is dumb and it's the past... and yes, locking was important for certain documents that our users need to print, sign, and send back by snail mail 09:25:41 attila_lendvai: I agree it's dumb. But it will open in anyone's MSWord, no matter how old or locked down. But it's great to hear about people with real users that need to sign things! 09:28:49 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-117-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:09 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:30:13 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:31:22 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.207] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:33:08 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:34:04 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:41 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:39:45 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:40:37 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:40:54 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:44:11 timor [n=martin@w4895.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:38 splittist, also we have a very comfortable xml generation tool which is another reason... ( http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-quasi-quote/index-old.shtml ) 09:45:49 or rather http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-quasi-quote/present-class.html 09:48:10 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:50:11 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.108.63] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:04 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:53:18 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:54:02 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:56:42 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-223.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:56:45 drewc: are you here? 09:57:25 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:57:46 attila_lendvai: interesting! Indeed I need to make a 'non editable document' as a result from my application. Indeed I experience the same probs you described in the answer. I look into what you propose. 09:59:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:33 we managed to emit pdf documents containing hungarian accents, but the time wasted on that was 2+ times more than the time of an entire fodt exporter... unfortunately 3 years ago it wasn't really an option yet 10:00:14 and if i count the numerous hours of wasted debugging of cl-pdf/typesetting then it was clearly not worth it 10:00:47 it's one of those silently failing codebases 10:01:02 -!- timor [n=martin@w4895.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:02:26 dynamic typing sucks 10:03:46 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 10:04:17 -!- sadiquea is now known as sdqali 10:04:25 hi i have one question about this project 10:04:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_VFZ_ON0A8 10:04:48 can anybody explian me which is the way of evaluate if the polygons fits in the image? 10:04:51 programming sucks and it's in the stone age... but static typing doesn't help much with that 10:07:06 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-27-24.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:08:29 attila_lendvai: I would generate TeX source and feed pdftex with it ;) 10:11:46 is there a way to find out what locks does a thread hold? 10:12:00 stassats: here? 10:12:07 tcr: yep 10:12:31 stassats: what is it that ,open-system takes so long? and where is it cached that it's only slow the first time? 10:12:54 tcr: file system 10:13:55 and not open-system itself, but slime-read-system-name 10:13:58 stassats: I think a better solution is a) to initializes a connection variable *systems* after connection in the background; then add :new-systems events 10:14:12 like it's done for packages, and features 10:14:21 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 10:15:34 what will generate these events? 10:16:53 repl-eval 10:17:43 *pre-reply-hook* is perhaps a better place 10:17:49 in the background? what if i've just added a new system and want to load it right away? 10:18:20 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:26 It's initialized in the background, after that it's updated with each rpc 10:18:43 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 10:18:47 if you put it onto *pre-reply-hook*, though for that the operation must be fast 10:19:22 just doing ls on systems with caches dropped takes 4 seconds for me 10:20:06 but emacs blocks for that time 10:20:23 because it's done by slime-eval; I'm not sure how to fudge slime-eval-async in there though 10:23:04 using inotify might be an overkill 10:23:48 stassats: the kludge would be to perform list-asdf-systems in the background at startup in some background thread, ignore its value 10:23:53 just to initialize FS caches 10:24:14 that sounds ok 10:24:18 :P 10:24:26 make sure to parametrize it on :spawn though 10:24:33 and comment it appropriately 10:25:38 and do (cl:ignore-errors (swank:list-asdf-systems)) 10:25:55 jsnell: are you here? 10:28:25 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:29:10 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 10:29:22 Good evening! 10:30:39 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit ["leaving"] 10:34:34 mathrick: yes, there's a point type 10:34:41 *pointer 10:35:33 mathrick: http://l1sp.org/cffi/foreign-pointer 10:37:25 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:38:15 mathrick: oh, I misread that. no, there's no function pointer type. 10:38:44 mathrick: do you know any platforms where they're different from any other pointer? 10:39:36 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 10:41:06 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:51:31 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:33 Why sbcl cannot dump function objects? I have a macro and when expanded will have a function object in the form, but SBCL complains that "Objects of type FUNCTION can't be dumped into fasl files." 10:53:39 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 10:56:32 huangjs: that's simple, just don't this 10:56:39 don't do 10:57:02 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:59:12 plage: sorry for not sendiung yet the files, but I've got a stubborn network here (getting windows browsing to work on heterogenous network is a *PITA*. and that was the easy thing...) 10:59:17 huangjs: i think the situation is the same for most implementations 11:02:40 stassats: Xach: is there any techinal reason not to do that? 11:03:48 there is not technical reason to have function objects in your fasls, most likely for your application 11:04:13 stassats: my application? 11:04:51 huangjs: unless you are doing something unusual 11:05:30 stassats: actually, it happened when I was compiling lisp-unit. 11:05:42 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179127232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:06:32 then that's a bug in lisp-unit 11:06:42 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:28 *attila_lendvai* notices the sidestepping defensive behavior of stassats 11:07:54 huangjs: i can compile lisp-unit without any trouble, are you using some modified version? 11:08:20 stassats: No, I don't think so. what's the md5sum of your lisp-unit.lisp? 11:08:33 2a6ddd5738694b323398438284f232bf 11:08:46 2a6ddd5738694b323398438284f232bf lisp-unit.lisp 11:09:15 looks similar 11:09:39 stassats: er... sorry, not compiling lisp-unit.lisp but using it. I'll paste the file to compile. 11:10:14 most likely you have not enough quoting 11:11:16 huangjs, just port the tests to stefil... :) 11:11:18 huangjs pasted "assert-eql compilation error " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93140 11:11:38 attila_lendvai: it's my boss who's using lisp-unit. I've told him to switch. :) 11:11:42 I like stefil. 11:12:10 attila_lendvai: I'm his SBCL consultant. 11:12:24 hehe :) 11:12:43 Jabberwock [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 11:14:22 stassats: I know how to modify lisp-unit to behave correctly, but I'd like to know if there's any techincal reason that prevent the implementation. 11:15:24 huangjs: implementations don't have to, and most code doesn't need it 11:16:09 *attila_lendvai* still sees the unnecessary defensive answers 11:17:37 attila_lendvai: i haven't got better reasons 11:19:56 I think I'll just tell my boss to fit himself outside the world of Allegro. :) Thanks for the answers anyway. 11:21:26 luis: almost all embedded ones 11:21:43 I'm unsure if ARM in thumb mode doesn't have that 11:21:45 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 11:24:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:25:34 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 11:25:44 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:28:19 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:31:20 huangjs: It's just hard to serialize closures, I guess. Perhaps there are even semantic problems, I forgot. I guess if you search comp.lang.lisp, or just google for serialization + closures, you'll find answers 11:37:41 pkhuong has written one system to serialise closures 11:37:46 google for common-cold 11:38:24 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:39:38 google says it's a virus, looks more like DNA serialization 11:42:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:58 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:44:00 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:44:37 tcr, huangjs: http://www.discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/common-cold/ 11:50:48 timor [n=martin@g224193135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:52:11 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:53:07 stassats: DNA is already a serialisation format :) 11:55:37 anair_84 [n=anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:54 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:39 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:04:31 fasls already have closures inside, don't they? i think it's just the wrong phase when it appears in a macro expansion... 12:05:18 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 12:05:19 they don't 12:05:31 they can have instructions for recreating closures 12:05:42 but you can't serialize a closure 12:05:50 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 12:06:37 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:04 ah, i think i see... is it the problem that to serialize a closure (to emit the instructions how to recreate it) you need more information than just the closure itself which is available for the compiler, but it's not available when a closure is thrown at it from a macro. 12:10:29 yeah. For instance, you need to know all the other closures which share an environment 12:11:23 hunchentoot 1.1.0 is out, but i'm too timid to update the topic 12:11:24 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-28-147.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 hrm... but then function objects (without closed over values) could be saved, they would only lose their identities when reloaded. but i guess it's simpler the disallow it than to list all the possible surprises that may happen 12:14:23 nostoi [n=nostoi@80.31.173.239] has joined #lisp 12:17:32 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:42 -!- timor [n=martin@g224193135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:18:15 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit ["brb. .. trying to get rid of pulseaudio ..... x)"] 12:18:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:50 -!- lachlanc [n=chatzill@239.79.70.115.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:19:39 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-68-191.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:20:31 lachlanc [n=chatzill@239.79.70.115.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:21:50 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.4.23] has joined #lisp 12:24:36 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:25:22 Is (defun () *foo*), where *FOO* was not yet declaimed special, conforming code? 12:26:16 tcr: do you mean exactly what you typed? 12:26:31 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:26:34 (name missing?) 12:26:52 or, actually, is it conforming with respect to more than "undefined" or "unspecified" consequences? 12:26:56 Yeah I meant what I typed 12:27:20 I'm wondering why sbcl does not seem to defer those warnings to the end of a compilation unit, and possibly muffle the warnings if a variable was defined later 12:28:15 <_3b> does it even get to variable issues? 12:28:19 what you typed is missing a function name, tcr 12:28:32 <_3b> it could be missing an arglist :p 12:28:32 -!- j0be [n=chatzill@218-106-dsl.ipact.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221151141]"] 12:28:44 <_3b> sbcl even thinks so :) 12:28:52 oh :-) indeed, apologies splittist 12:31:50 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:28 Actually it may in fact be deferring them, but not muffling them which is just confusing. 12:34:03 huangjs: your boss ? Kuroda Hisao ? 12:38:57 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:39:05 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:41:17 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 12:41:29 bah - 'learning' css by cutting, pasting and reloading is no fun. Where is my royal road! 12:42:10 <_3b> use a bookmarklet thing to edit it interactively? 12:43:56 <_3b> https://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/webdevel.html#edit_styles for example 12:44:24 splittist, or use firebug 12:44:40 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:20 -!- johnzorn [n=jz@206-248-152-106.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:46:22 _3b, attila_lendvai: thanks. I'm doing all that. I was really commenting on my foolishness in jumping in and fiddling rather than actually doing my homework first. 12:46:38 <_3b> ah, why would you want to do that? :p 12:47:20 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:47:29 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:47:51 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 12:47:53 -!- sdqali [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:48:36 unreachable code deletion notes are starting to annoy me 12:52:12 Needs an unreachable declare :) 13:03:28 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:06:21 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:06:59 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:07:06 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 13:07:40 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:07 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:12:30 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has joined #lisp 13:14:11 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:47 unicode [n=user@95.214.22.101] has joined #lisp 13:17:58 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 13:20:02 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:21:46 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439907.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:24:02 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:25:11 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.206.86] has joined #lisp 13:26:01 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439907.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 13:26:38 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-80.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:28:22 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@80.31.173.239] has quit ["Verlassend"] 13:31:30 -!- JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 13:32:13 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:32:15 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 13:33:30 *Xach* gives montezuma a whirl 13:33:47 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:35:30 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 13:37:27 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-51-1.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:39:28 longkid [n=lisp@118.68.222.91] has joined #lisp 13:39:44 hi all 13:40:48 Xach: they make good chocolate 13:42:08 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:42:40 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has joined #lisp 13:42:56 I have a class, if I want to create a function whose parameter is an instance of that class. Which keyword do I have to use? 13:43:08 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 13:44:52 longkid: you don't have to use any keyword 13:45:02 longkid: That's a hard question to answer  what other language are you coming from? 13:45:08 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 13:46:08 mstevens: It also seems like a good indexer, maybe. 13:46:36 Xach: I hadn't considered that part. 13:48:00 Heh, a straight HTML index page of all 5,121 articles is about 400KB. 13:48:07 *Xach* will split into years or something similar 13:50:37 -!- lachlanc [n=chatzill@239.79.70.115.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 13:51:38 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.22.101] has quit ["leaving"] 13:52:31 -!- longkid [n=lisp@118.68.222.91] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:54:52 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-28-147.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:30 manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6FD8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:05 I always loved to use montezuma to index cll 13:59:30 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 14:02:08 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 14:03:38 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:05:59 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-249-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:10 pr [n=pr@p579CA771.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:14 longkid [n=lisp@118.68.222.91] has joined #lisp 14:07:15 i'm finding some delightful articles with this archive 14:08:08 http://xach.com/tmp/unm/8ef572ac.html hooray for ascii art 14:09:14 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 14:11:49 -!- Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:11:58 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has joined #lisp 14:14:55 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 14:17:24 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.4.23] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:19:58 TDT 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15:16:04 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Client Quit] 15:17:32 local-time is a nice library 15:19:39 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:21:52 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 15:22:04 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-112-114.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:23:11 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:23:29 unicode [n=user@95.214.94.193] has joined #lisp 15:23:31 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.87.25] has joined #lisp 15:25:18 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 15:26:12 I take it back. local-time thinks (+ 11/1/2009 1 :month) => 11/30/2009 15:26:45 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:19 HG` [n=HG@xdslgn211.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:27:38 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:29:01 *froydnj* still uses net-telent-date =/ 15:29:16 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:33 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:32:29 froydnj: I use net-telent-date's parser and local-time's data structures :| 15:32:56 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:32:56 *ryepup* checks out local-time from darcs 15:33:01 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.94.24] has joined #lisp 15:36:36 huh, it looks fairly sane 15:38:38 ryepup: does it actually allow that syntax? 15:38:41 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:39:25 milanj [n=milan@93.87.117.192] has joined #lisp 15:39:50 tcr: no, but you can get close 15:40:10 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:40:22 tcr: (local-time:timestamp+ timestamp-obj 1 :month) 15:40:37 and there are some reader macros for making timestamp objects 15:41:12 wlr 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[n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:28 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:04:26 sigh. local-time is right, somehow I'm getting screwed up by timezones. Again. 16:05:00 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:05:14 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 16:07:16 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:23 I've created a new revision of the cll archive - http://xach.com/tmp/unm/index.html is nearing its final appearance (though that URL is temporary) 16:08:35 Xof: I added a few keyboard shortcuts 16:09:11 I didn't switch to using message-ids as filenames, though. 16:09:16 (still might do that) 16:09:16 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:11:12 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:55 did you do a full-text index? 16:14:04 Not yet. 16:14:08 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.94.193] has quit ["leaving"] 16:14:12 I think Garret has only one t 16:15:26 You're right, thanks. 16:16:03 twillis [n=twillis@cpe-65-27-233-147.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:30 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:17:44 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:45 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:44 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:19:59 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:59 -!- splittist [i=3ecba549@gateway/web/freenode/x-akuthkfwmwhjlluj] has quit ["yay for Xach"] 16:25:34 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-250-148.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:33 Xach: oh, and thanks for your intervention in the megathread du jour 16:26:50 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:03 *tmh* fights the tempation to go read it. 16:27:07 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-29-30-117.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:27:10 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 16:27:14 I have been avoiding cll for the past couple months. 16:27:26 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-119-126.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:59 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:49 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:22 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 16:31:03 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:16 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-20-175.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:36:27 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:37:01 wow, that filtered functions thread is just noise. 16:37:11 hah, not that megathread 16:37:22 Garret putting filtered functions together with if*.. awesome. 16:37:36 I wondered what pascal's "one noisy commenter" was...oh my 16:38:25 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:33 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 16:46:35 *Xach* wonders how long montezuma should take for 25MB of text in 5,000 articles 16:47:24 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:47:55 the answer is: 176 seocnds 16:48:12 That's Numberwang! 16:49:23 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-117-112.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:50:44 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-51-1.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:57 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:02 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:58 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-bisvkkbgirriurqj] has joined #lisp 16:53:53 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:56:17 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:11 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:59:00 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:59:18 Xach: nice work. 16:59:45 176 seconds, shameful 17:00:32 jewel__ [n=jewel@vc-41-28-103-86.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:00:50 hefner: is that slow? 17:01:35 hah. only one article contains "hefner", but it is a reference to Hugh Hefner. sorry. 17:02:27 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 17:02:30 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-29-30-117.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:47 sykopomp|work: that's almost three minutes. to do something with 25 MB of data? 17:06:58 Xach: http://xach.com/tmp/unm/index.html misspells "Garret" 17:07:27 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:28 hefner: factoring this 1024-bit number shouldn't take long.. after all, it's only 1024-bit 17:07:43 no shit. 17:08:07 Just get an array of 512 hackers, 512 hookers, and 512 hitmen and you can do it in real time. Just scaling up the Swordfish solution. 17:08:27 Could probably get by with 128 of each, even. 17:09:06 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:32 adeht: Thanks. 17:09:42 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:07 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:10:24 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:10:56 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:18 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:19:01 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 17:19:23 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-27-24.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 17:20:15 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-27-24.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:20:31 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:21:01 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 17:21:37 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.94.24] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:24:33 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:25:15 tcr pasted "Q regarding externalization of uninterned symbols" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93153 17:25:34 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:02 -!- ramus` is now known as ramus 17:27:58 tcr: Does the definition of 'apparently uninterned' answer your question? 17:28:07 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:28:24 No 17:28:27 ck [n=ck@24.144.224.87] has joined #lisp 17:28:27 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 17:28:48 -!- ck is now known as Guest32327 17:29:13 I don't understand why you think it should evaluate to T 17:29:30 -!- Guest32327 [n=ck@24.144.224.87] has left #lisp 17:29:35 EQ for symbols compares for identity, not similarity 17:29:36 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@78.180.69.214] has joined #lisp 17:29:50 tcr: I don't think your example is applicable because 'S' is supposed to be in source code and 'C' is in compiled code. 17:29:53 because the uninterned symbol may be coalesced to the same thing in the fasl file 17:30:07 is hefner here? 17:30:26 hefner is here. 17:30:59 oh nice :D 17:31:17 i've seen your 3d logic cube example in mcclim examples 17:31:26 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:41 hefner is a clim stud. 17:31:44 ABCL actually does make it T, all other implementations I tried make it NIL. 17:31:47 tcr: if it _may_ be coalesced, then how does this _require_ them to evaluate to T? 17:32:02 hefner: but i coul 17:32:18 adeht: actually it must, that's my thinking. But I assume I must be missing something so I said "may" 17:32:23 but i couldn't understand how you did manage to create 3d output :) 17:33:10 hefner: is it some primitive math functions that handle 3d projection of the cube? 17:34:40 jahmarley: yeah, I make a rotation matrix based on the pointer position, multiply each vertex by that, do the perspective divide, then just draw it as a regular filled polygon. 17:35:35 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:37:13 hefner: would it be hard to arrange that to handle more advanced 3d objects 17:38:20 or would it be too slow to handle more advenced objects with these functions? 17:38:22 tcr: I don't see where similarity may turn into sameness 17:38:34 <_3b> tcr: first paragraph of 3.2.4.4 ? 17:38:56 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-27-24.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:24 jahmarley: There's no z-buffering, so you have the old problem of having to sort the polygons by order of depth and subdivide complex polygons that cause problems with the painter's algorithm. For half a cube, it isn't necessary. 17:40:38 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DC26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:40:40 3b: yes, should've qualified that statement for symbols 17:41:48 jahmarley: the routines I wrote there are very inefficient (they represent matrices and vectors as lists..) but if you rewrote them in a sane fashion, and maybe used some slightly lower level drawing functions in CLIM or CLX, you could draw reasonably complex objects 17:42:30 I have no idea what "reasonably complex" is, though. Thousands of polygons? Tens of thousands? 17:42:45 You'd have to try it and measure. 17:44:41 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:49 hefner: i think also there should be something to shade the polygons better because with this simple approach more complex objects would not be recognizable without proper shading 17:45:44 _3b: Thanks! But what's the point of that paragraph in 3.2.4.2.2 then? 17:46:16 _3b: ah ok I get it 17:46:20 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-27-24.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:46:22 jmbr [n=jmbr@92.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:46:50 cool so it's a bug in ABCL :-) will report later 17:47:26 jahmarley: I think I'd use OpenGL instead if I were doing serious 3D work. You could maybe coax Gouraud-shaded polygons out of Xrender, but that's about the limit. 17:47:28 <_3b> hmm, does that mean it could coalesce an aggregate object containing non-identical symbols? 17:48:19 i see, thanks :) 17:48:29 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@78.180.69.214] has left #lisp 17:48:42 _3b: how would the objects be identical if parts of it are pointing to different things? 17:49:14 <_3b> tcr: the aggregate needs to be similar, not identical 17:49:46 <_3b> and since the contents are similar, the aggregates are similar 17:49:55 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:16 hum 17:50:41 *_3b* isn't suggesting it would be a sane thing to do, just possibly permitted by the spec 17:50:48 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 17:52:41 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.179] has joined #lisp 17:55:29 adeht: the whole point of similarity is to turn onto sameness, at load time 17:56:07 konr [n=user@189.96.204.201] has joined #lisp 17:56:23 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:38 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:39 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:21 tcr: but 3b referenced a section saying that symbols and packages may be both similar and not permitted to be coalesced 18:06:30 -!- jewel__ [n=jewel@vc-41-28-103-86.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:48 ysph [n=user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:57 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:10:21 so a similarity relation between two objects does not imply sameness of corresponding objects (but may imply, together with other facts, sameness of objects of which they are constituents) 18:10:29 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.192] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:58 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-91-205.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:17:14 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:19:36 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 18:20:16 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:55 Does anyone have any good ideas on how to debug why valgrind doesn't work on SBCL? 18:24:18 From what I can tell, it seems to have ended up trying to execute in the middle of an instruction 18:24:47 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:22 foom: eh... Is that before you get to the REPL? 18:25:24 (You can reproduce with "setarch x86_64 -R valgrind sbcl" (the setarch is needed because otherwise sbcl re-exec's itself to do the same) 18:25:27 yea 18:25:49 it prints the banner and then fails before the repl 18:27:16 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 18:28:38 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-090-011.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:29:08 It gives me an address in the core, which looks like it'd be a valid instruction if it ended in 17 or 19 instead of 18. 18:29:47 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:31:55 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:34:03 there's some method which'll tell me what function that's in, right? 18:35:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:21 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:35:45 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 18:36:08 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:36:10 Argh, no, I screwed up, I was inspecting a different sbcl core than the one it failed on. this is a trivial bug of not handling a valid instruction. Nevermind. :) 18:36:30 sb-di::component-ptr-from-pc, otherwise (actually a C function). 18:36:51 ; 18: 63448301 MOVSXD EAX, DWORD PTR [RBX+RAX*4+1] 18:36:52 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-16-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:37:11 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:37:25 I wonder: is that a strange encoding of the instruction or something? 18:38:31 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-31-170-193.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:38:43 Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-090-011.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:38:55 -!- Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:38:55 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-090-011.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:15 Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:22 -!- Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:39:43 Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:54 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.106.20] has joined #lisp 18:40:20 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-27-24.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:41 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:42 -!- Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:41:02 Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-91-205.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:01 gdb decodes it as: movslq 0x1(%rbx,%rax,4),%eax 18:42:31 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 18:43:40 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:44:29 but I can't figure out what format to put that in to get gcc's assembler to parse it to see what bytes that generates. 18:44:31 foom: is there a 0x48 right before that instruction? 18:45:35 ; 11: 488BC2 MOV RAX, RDX 18:45:35 ; 14: 48C1F803 SAR RAX, 3 18:45:35 ; 18: 63448301 MOVSXD EAX, DWORD PTR [RBX+RAX*4+1] 18:45:35 ; 1C: EBCE JMP #x1001B3C3EC 18:45:54 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:38 So, I wonder if the EAX should be RAX? 18:46:48 foom: don't think it *should*. 18:47:14 movslq is movsxd. 18:47:33 movslq (%rbx,%rax,4),%eax says "Error: suffix or operands invalid for `movslq'" 18:47:46 (that's missing the 1 offset, I dunno how to type that so it's accepted) 18:48:02 switching %eax to %rax makes it accept it 18:50:40 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:17 well, that's interesting. "The use of MOVSXD without REX.W in 64-bit mode is discouraged. Regular MOV should be used instead of using MOVSXD without REX.W" 18:52:08 yeah. It's discouraged, but *not* illegal. 18:52:15 I'd file a bug with all of 'em ;) 18:52:25 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-29-170.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:35 I guess the question is whether there's another way to write the same instruction that's not discouraged? 18:52:46 yeah. the rex.w version. 18:53:19 Won't that output a 64-bit result instead of a 32-bit result...or something? 18:53:36 gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:43 foom: it's a read. 18:54:28 right, but surely "EAX" there means "the lower 32-bits of RAX"? 18:54:33 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 18:55:43 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-44-201.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:55:52 -!- postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-21-26.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 18:55:55 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-44-201.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:37 foom: you're loading from a (signed-byte 32) vector, right? 18:57:21 Hmm, having a really weird clsql issue that may be a simple fix - hopefully, I'm not seeing the issue. The code is here: https://gist.github.com/dba92821f9f93e3d3a10 -- in short, the last method, process-and-write-org I would like to make a new post object (defined by clsql:def-view-class), and assign values that come from the org object (definition is just above being 'blog-org'), then call clsql:update-records-from-instance to save this value. 18:57:53 no. That movsxd is weird. 18:58:03 Sign extending a 32 bit value to 32 bit is a noop. 18:58:12 Would anyone have an idea about what "no settable slots" actually means in this case? 19:01:20 TDT: Hmm, why didn't you use keywords for the initargs? 19:01:36 that's interesting. MOVZX can get assembled as movsxd. 19:03:16 TDT: with your view class definition, you'd need (make-instance 'post 'title (title org) 'content (content org) ...) 19:03:57 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:04:07 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-241-176.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:07:16 foom: insts.lisp:1883, replace that line with (emit-byte segment (if signed-p #x63 #x8b)) ;movsxd or straight mov 19:08:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-16-102.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:10:20 pkhuong: Okay, I'll try rebuilding sbcl with that change and see what happens. thanks 19:11:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-16-102.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:11:40 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-31-170-193.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:09 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 19:14:39 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-27-177-182.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:14:55 Xach: That worked thanks. I was reading from the documentation and they used : for setting the variables. 19:15:39 TDT: Did the documentation also use non-keywords when defining the view class? 19:16:04 TDT: see also: why didn't you use keywords for the initargs? 19:18:06 Xach: oh wow, I should have noticed that..you're right. Thought mine were exacty the same but I was incorrect. I'm surprised on the outcome of using symbols in the definition 19:19:16 Didn't make the mistake on the user class, but did here. Thanks for catching that xach 19:20:24 hah this wordpress push actually works. 19:20:33 first time I actually was able to test the entire thing 19:21:07 I changed it to using keywords, and fixed the make-instance again and it worked just fine. 19:21:33 TDT: Being able to use arbitrary non-keyword symbols for initargs is pretty useful, but you do have to make sure you're consistent with what you specify in the defclass and what you use for make-instance. 19:21:54 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:10 yeah, the lack of keywords was totally unintentional. I didn't really know you could use non-keywords for class definitions. 19:22:17 *didn't even know 19:22:18 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.106.20] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-16-102.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:23:49 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-71-139.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-16-102.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:27:33 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FA37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:41 Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.24.104] has joined #lisp 19:27:43 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-116-139.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:30 hello all, if a newb was trying to get up to speed on lisp, would the wizards recommend "Practical Common Lisp"? or "OnLisp"? both? neither? others? 19:34:07 twillis: Practical Common Lisp is better than On Lisp for learning Common Lisp. 19:34:20 I found PCL nice, but haven't read OnLisp, so... 19:34:28 twillis: Paradigms of AI Programming is also a good book about Common Lisp. 19:34:41 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:34:46 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 19:34:52 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-57-237.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:06 Xach: is Paradigms of Ai in electronic form anywhere or just dead tree? 19:35:20 The only warning about PAIP is....that it's very very advanced, I feel. 19:35:21 twillis: Dead tree 19:35:36 In relation to PCL and OnLisp anyways 19:35:37 PAIP certainly rewards careful study, but I don't think it's super-advanced. 19:35:44 -!- Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:36:04 Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:18 So far I've found PAIP kicking my tail so far, heh. I hope it gets better over time 19:36:33 there is a pdf version of paip around but it's missing pages and is a scan 19:36:50 Xach: cool thanks, I'll keep slogging through PCL then and see how it goes 19:38:01 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-27-177-182.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:38:45 TDT: PCL assumes you have knowledge of and interest in programming; PAIP assumes you have at least an interest in (classic?) AI. I seem to remember. 19:39:04 on PCL chapters 4-13 though I know they are critical could have benefited from some more code examples imo. 19:39:30 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.109.194] has joined #lisp 19:39:37 splittist: Yeah, which I do - it's an interesting book and I find the concepts interesting. There are a few things being done that I found very hard to get at first...it's a very much 'careful study' book as Xach said. 19:40:12 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:19 -!- Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-090-011.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:56 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-3-130.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:22 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:41:26 Hmm, when I use (setq slime-auto-connect 'ask) (which i like for slime-selector and the repl), visiting a new lisp file triggers what seems to be an endless loop of prompting. 19:41:35 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has joined #lisp 19:41:46 If I say no, it just prompts again. If I say yes, it seems to hang my emacs. 19:42:05 C-g, C-x C-c don't work, etc 19:43:34 that's right, i had to switch it off 19:43:48 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-3-148.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:43:51 if something's wrong it just keeps trying 19:44:05 ok. pity. 19:44:28 With asdf, what's the canonical way to guarantee that package.lisp, which contains my projects package definitions, is loaded before any other lisp files are compiled? 19:44:57 *Fade* wonders why split-squence has been subsumed by cl-utilities? 19:45:10 reb: either :serial t, or :depends-on 19:45:12 reb: there are a few ways. one is to use :serial t and list package.lisp first. 19:45:25 reb: the other way is to make package.lisp a dependency of the other files 19:45:53 Xach: I don't want to use :serial t, so that leaves getting the dependencies right. 19:46:05 i use :serial t and do not bother 19:46:11 *Xach* used to use dependencies carefully, but now just uses :serial t 19:47:08 Xach: I have a file optimize.lisp that will not compile without package.lisp having been loaded first. My asd system definition includes (:cl-source-file "optimize" :depends-on ("package")) 19:47:18 usocket now depends on cl-utilities:split-sequence, but just about everything else wants split-sequence:split-sequence, and their names clash. :P 19:48:00 they have same nicknames? 19:48:30 However, it I look at asdf's dependencies, compiling optimize.lisp only depends on *compiling* package.lisp. 19:48:43 yeah 19:48:49 which isn't right .... 19:49:22 the split-sequence in cl-utilities is identical to the split-sequence in split-sequence. 19:49:29 reb: I don't think I've used :cl-source-file before. i usually use :file. maybe it means the same thing, though. 19:49:45 apparently the only reason for this fork was to change the package prefix, which is very annoying. 19:50:59 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:06 -!- Intensity [i=[lRD75M9@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:04 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-29-128-202.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:53:25 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:59 Does anyone know who's maintaining asdf these days? 19:57:07 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:48 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-64-126.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:45 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:58:53 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has joined #lisp 20:00:10 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 20:00:33 reb: asdf-devel@common-lisp.net 20:03:15 Krystof: Thanks! 20:06:14 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:08:09 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 20:08:47 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:09:12 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 20:09:37 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:09:53 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 20:11:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-xrkbebrgbingffek] has joined #lisp 20:12:33 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 20:13:00 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:13:48 gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:33 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-29-128-202.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:56 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:17:05 Fade: There's something you can shove on features, and that will cause cl-utilities to create a split-sequence package. Then you just change the ASDF dependencies for things that depend on split-sequence to depend on cl-utilities instead. Not ideal, but at least you don't have to change all the _uses_ of split-sequence. 20:17:10 Hmm, I wonder why I haven't heard of SLIK before. 20:18:16 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:56 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:19:13 sellout: ah, well, that's less annoying than what I was contemplating. 20:19:23 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:26 do you have a link to explanation of this? 20:22:26 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8EF3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:44 Fade: Not really ... but you can see it here: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/cl-utilities/package.lisp?root=cl-utilities&view=markup 20:22:55 point #2 in the commit message, and at the bottom of the file. 20:24:52 heh, setting pprint dispatch entry in the default table for strings so that they'll be printed with « and » instead of double-quotes has some funny consequences for slime's symbol completion 20:26:52 arrrrrrrrgh. paredit + screen is going to kill me, because C- and M- don't work properly. Argh. 20:27:46 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:28:09 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:28:11 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 20:28:17 francogrex [n=user@172.38-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:28:30 sellout: thanks. I found the switch in the asd file. 20:28:41 akar [n=oijhif@92.82.68.99] has joined #lisp 20:28:58 oops, didn't consider *print-escape* 20:30:57 ah 20:31:08 *Xach* changes TERM from "screen" to "xterm", temporarily "wins" 20:31:21 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6BE17.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:32:25 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:32:46 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-160-63.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:02 So I've been playing with different lisps, trying to get them to load a lisp program (specified on the command line) and run it without outputting anything on stdout or stderr except for what my program prints explicitly. With at least two lisps (allegro and ecl) I've been completely unsuccessful, and it looks like cl-launch's devs have too. 20:36:41 How is this not a use-case that those old and venerable lisps are able to handle with ease? 20:38:02 malsyned: When I want to do that with sbcl, I build an executable with everything already loaded, and I'm careful about handling the debugger so it only prints what I want. 20:38:40 pkhuong: (finally got a chance to try that), now it gets farther, and fails on LODSQ. :) That *must* be a real bug in valgrind, because 48ad is the only way to spell lodsq, and that's how gcc assembles "loadsq" 20:38:45 malsyned: there's hackery you can invoke to make a "shebang" line work 20:39:19 : disable a few things: use handler case for example 20:39:23 that is pretty new and not heavily tested. 20:39:26 at least in sbcl. 20:39:31 s/loadsq/lodsq/ 20:39:32 works for me! 20:39:44 oh, sorry. i misread ecl as sbcl. 20:40:33 ECL is ridiculously chatty, but if you build an executable with it, it can be better behaved. 20:40:42 Xach, yeah SBCL wasn't too difficult. --script does most of it. 20:40:47 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:41:58 The problem with ecl is that it loads a couple of things verbosely before getting to my code which tells it to shut up. Allegro seems to install patches chatilly when their features are first used, and none of the *...-print* or *...-verbose* variables affect it. 20:42:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-80.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:42:31 I feel sorry for anyone who pays thousands of dollars for allegro just to build unix pipelines with it 20:43:18 heh 20:43:49 <_3b> well, at least that would be better than spending thousands and failing to build pipelines with it 20:44:30 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:52 : no ecl can load you file without printing anything; read what i wrote above 20:44:53 hefner, yeah I was just playing with the free version. 20:45:09 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.24.104] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:19 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-235-190.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:27 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:45:34 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has joined #lisp 20:46:31 francogrex, I do use handler-case and the print and verbose variables to quash everything, but before my code even loads, ecl loads "cmp.fas" and "sysfun.lsp" as part of start-up before touching any of my code. 20:46:56 I have to run out for a bit, but when I come back I'll do a paste. 20:49:24 : ok an example would be good 20:50:31 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:54:19 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.204.201] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:54:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:14 drwhat [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:30 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:05 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:05 benny [n=benny@i577A3255.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:15 -!- akar [n=oijhif@92.82.68.99] has quit [Client Quit] 21:02:23 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:03:40 pkhuong: however, LODSQ seems like an unfortunate instruction to use, since it's apparenly pretty slow. 21:04:25 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:06:15 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:11:40 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 21:11:52 segyr [n=user@199.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 21:16:19 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:17:22 -!- segyr [n=user@199.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:17:33 billc [n=billc@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:03 -!- billc [n=billc@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 21:20:04 -!- francogrex [n=user@172.38-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20:19 billc [n=billc@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:45 francogrex [n=user@91.177.55.169] has joined #lisp 21:20:59 -!- billc [n=billc@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 21:21:55 hmm, is there a way I make a defconstant of a structure instance that wont' complain when I reload the file? 21:22:34 ...a way I _can_ make a... 21:22:37 malsyned pasted "attempting to get ecl to quietly load and run a script" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93158 21:22:45 francogrex, that was for you 21:23:56 malsyned: we ended up printing a magic string that the stdio reader on the other side looks for, ignoring everything before it 21:24:03 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:04 (defconstant +foo+ (if (boundp '+foo+) +foo+ #S(foo :a 1))) 21:24:13 thanks! 21:24:40 Phoodus, huh? 21:25:39 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.87.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:25:57 malsyned: you're using stdio to talk to another program? 21:26:11 Phoodus, to talk to the user. 21:26:40 ah, ok. We had the same sorts of problems, but with a program on the other side we could eventually filter things 21:27:34 malsyned: it shouldn't be hard to patch ECL 21:29:04 loxs [n=loxs@78.90.124.182] has joined #lisp 21:29:21 adeht, I'm sure it's not. But it's a question of the scale of the project. I'm trying to make it easy to write small utilities for myself in lisp, and maybe share them with friends. So that answer is basically the same as "ECL is the wrong tool for the job." 21:29:36 bah 21:29:59 billc [n=billc@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:08 you know, if you patch it in a sane way, you can send the patch to the mailing list and a maintainer may incorporate it 21:30:23 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.146] has joined #lisp 21:31:09 that's the way things work in the open source model 21:31:14 : ok testing now 21:31:42 adeht, that's not a bad idea. thanks. 21:32:06 -!- billc [n=billc@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 21:35:32 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 21:39:36 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:46 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:40:00 francogrex, that's not runnable unless you've got an "example" system in the same directory that defines ex:main. 21:40:37 billc [n=billc@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:46 -!- billc [n=billc@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 21:41:15 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:00 billc [n=billc@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:09 -!- billc [n=billc@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 21:43:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:44:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:02 unicode [n=user@95.214.8.33] has joined #lisp 21:47:19 : i know 21:47:34 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:36 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.179] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:58 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:51:31 foom: lodsq? 21:52:35 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179127232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:52:59 pkhuong: lodsq. 21:54:36 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 21:55:17 lodsq 21:55:25 (I just felt like saying it) 21:56:39 : but this is strctly related to your example 21:56:59 foom: legacy code copy pasted from the x86 backend. 21:57:35 src/compiler/x86-64/call.lisp:L1191. Make that (inst mov rax (make-ea :qword :base src)) (inst sub src 8), I guess? 21:57:45 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:57:49 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 21:57:59 It should be equivalent to movq (%rsi), %rax; addq $8, %rsi 21:58:25 er, wait, I guess the direction flag is negative here 22:00:33 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 22:01:43 I've got a condition of type SB-KERNEL:LAYOUT-INVALID thrown at me; is there a way to look at its type heirarchy to see what sort of lisp-standard condition it derives from (if any)? 22:02:18 Phoodus: you could M-. on sb-kernel:layout-invalid. 22:02:42 hmm, doesn't seem to do anything on the error display itself.. 22:03:04 nor from the repl, though it did tab-complete 22:03:13 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:03:20 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:03:21 :using for example something else like loading a a file and then ecl -shell run.lisp will produce no outout if verbise is nil 22:03:32 ohh, I thought you meant "meta dash", not "meta period" 22:03:48 You can also inspect (find-class 'sb-kernel:layout-invalid) and look at the class precedence list 22:04:07 # 22:05:16 "inspect". 22:05:19 I'm just seeing if I can wrap the defstruct redefinition errors when I edit things 22:05:28 but in a way that won't rely on internals 22:05:29 Zergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:38 then no. 22:05:44 it's just to get around having to respond to errors when doing slime recompiles 22:05:49 ok 22:09:19 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f754afe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:30 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 22:11:20 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit ["be back later"] 22:12:08 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:12:39 -!- newfurniturey [n=darkcida@74.93.195.210] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:52 newfurniturey [n=darkcida@74.93.195.210] has joined #lisp 22:12:54 -!- Hergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:00 : if you're still around, how are you loading your asdf? 22:16:00 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:29 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:17:05 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:17:27 pkhuong: and, hooray the repl comes up. It doesn't look like it's working so well though. :) 22:18:23 malsyned if you''re still awake, add this to you file and tell me what happens: (setf *load-verbose* nil) 22:19:00 (defun foo (a b) (+ a b)) causes "The value 0 is not of type SYMBOL." d'oh. 22:20:15 remove the 'quitely' macro 22:21:34 shell 22:21:37 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:23:08 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.55.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:39 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 22:26:46 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-bisvkkbgirriurqj] has quit ["Memo to self: point pkhuong to the latest ee380.stanford.edu presentation"] 22:31:18 francogrex: I have and it doesn't help. Those two lines are printed before my code even begins executing. 22:31:25 oh crap he left. 22:33:55 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:37:10 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:30 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:39:32 malsyned: if I guess your goal right, most impls have a command line option to silence startup messages 22:40:02 -!- loxs [n=loxs@78.90.124.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:10 Ralith, they do, but in a couple of cases those options aren't enough. They don't come from "banners", they come from some side-effects of start-up, or in Allegro's case from side-effects of evaluating certain forms. 22:42:42 try using -eval instead of -load, then maybe you can sneak in the code to silence things before it prints anything 22:42:48 what forms are these O.o 22:43:24 (maybe.) 22:43:44 Saturday: picked up at 8 at hotel, driven to pool for a check-out 22:43:44 At instructor's discression, either: 1 dive immediately after, or return to hotel until 1, then picked up for dive. 22:43:44 Sunday, pickup at 1pm, dive at 3:30. 22:43:44 Monday, 2-tank in the morning, pick-up at 8:00. 22:43:51 aah! wrong paste! sorry everyone. 22:44:02 malsyned@malsyned:~/projects/systemtut.asdf$ ecl -eval '(progn (write-line "hi") (quit))' 22:44:02 ;;; Loading #P"/usr/lib/ecl-9.6.1/cmp.fas" 22:44:02 ;;; Loading #P"/usr/lib/ecl-9.6.1/sysfun.lsp" 22:44:02 hi 22:44:25 bah. well, ECL is dumb. compile an executable and stop fighting with it. 22:44:46 don't forgot to do -norc 22:44:58 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 22:45:26 I don't think it will avoid those two files loading, but for instance I load ASDF in my .eclrc, so mine also prints a message related to that 22:45:48 hefner, -norc doesn't help. But I agree. I'm just going to write off ECL as "wrong tool for the job" 22:46:34 hefner, yeah, but it's possible with #'muffle-warnings and *load-verbose*/*load-print* to disable the messages that come out once your code is in control. 22:47:14 yeah, I was playing with that earlier. instead of using muffle-warnings, I just started commenting them out of ECL's compiler, though. :) 22:47:23 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:48:28 Some of them are really absurd. I can't imagine anyone except ECL's developer cares about "Scanning tags.." "Found tag @eclBLAH123123", etc., nor do I usually care about seeing the command line it passes to GCC. 22:50:13 the command-line it passes to GCC is conceivably interesting, at least. :) 22:52:05 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:23 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has joined #lisp 22:52:53 -!- sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:59 occasionally, when you're first getting your build configured, but otherwise there's just one thing in a torrent of spurious output that drowns out any useful information 22:53:08 (they're) 22:53:13 It strikes me that this might be a deficiency of getting new people into Lisp. And I know that there's controversy about whether that's even a worthwhile goal. But most programmers are used to "write console IO program, execute it with interpreter" and some lisps don't make that very easy. 22:54:01 I think simultaneously it isn't that important but should be easier anyway 22:54:18 slime is emphasised a lot and it doesn't fit people's mindsets about programming 22:54:42 I think it's incredibly important for it to be easy to write trivial shell programs in lisp. 22:54:44 well, that's the whole point 22:54:46 making it easier for people to program lisp in the wrong way is not beneficial to them or lisp 22:54:48 Right. I love slime, I use it all the time, but at the end of the day, it's a development environment, not a deployment tool. 22:54:49 it's a different, better way. 22:54:53 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 22:55:06 foom: well, there's a long way to go before that. 22:55:35 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.8.33] has quit ["leaving"] 22:56:26 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 22:56:27 I've been exploring what it takes to write small shell scripts in lisp. I'm finding that it's not terribly difficult in some lisps, but that there's not a lot of guidance out there. I might make a HOWTO from what I learn, if I learn anything worth sharing. 22:56:52 I mean, I work on this giant system in lisp all day, but if I want to do anything small, I do it in python. (I used to do it in tcl or sh before that :) Part of it is just me and my habits, but part of it is that it's "traditionally" not been trivial to do so. 22:57:14 foom: exactly my point/concern 22:57:39 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-xyozqhunrzgatkbt] has joined #lisp 22:57:40 i write shell scripts in ksh93, it's very good at it. Lisp i use for larger applications and programs.. it's overkill for scripting tasks imo. 22:57:42 CL needs non-broken filesystem access before you can think about using it for scripting 22:57:47 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:57:51 drewc: nothing wrong with overkill so long as it's not in the way. 22:57:52 If I want to get good enough at lisp to use it for big things, I need to be able to use it for day-to-day programming tasks. 22:58:07 hefner, how much of that does CL-FAD take care of for you? 22:58:10 hefner: hasn't someone written an I/O lib that just CFFI's to libc calls? 22:58:11 hefner: IOlib has some decent filesystem stuff 22:58:15 hefner: yes. I hear IOLib 22:58:21 heh. 22:58:26 *hefner* basks in the attention 22:58:26 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has joined #lisp 22:58:29 (I haven't tried to use it for such yet, though) 22:58:32 cl-fad uses pathnames, so it's completely useless 22:58:50 Yamazaki-kun pasted "First macro... run for cover" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93161 22:58:52 piso: you said something about optimizing normalize-type by caching its results. the effect should be noticeable, but I don't remember what it will impact noticeably: compiler-only? 22:59:10 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [] 22:59:13 Am I doing this okay, or is it ridiculous abuse of macros and CLOS? 22:59:45 Ralith: I use osicat's posix layer. Maybe iolib works too, but I assume it still weighs a ton. 22:59:49 Ralith: well, i prefer to use the correct tool for the job. For scripting the unix shell, i use a unix shell scripting language. Lisp doesn't bring much to the table , imo, for the tasks i call 'scripts' 23:00:16 hefner: iolib is more modular now, IIRC.. and people complain about that now :) 23:00:47 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:00:59 I only make heavy use of sh because it's so damned convenient to oneliner into a term 23:01:00 drewc: right. either too much code, or too many .asd files :D 23:01:02 I find python is a lot better at most small programs things than shell. The only thing I like using shell for is running a bunch of programs in a row, or in a pipeline, without much logic. 23:01:25 if I need to write something that can be legitimately termed a program, I'll do it in CL. 23:01:29 foom: yep 23:01:50 and python sucks with pipelines :( 23:02:02 Ralith: everything starts out as a single line 23:02:24 ehu: some things stay that way. 23:02:24 -!- prip [n=_prip@host58-82-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:26 guaqua: not really, it's pretty easy to set them up. 23:02:55 easy to set up, but once you need to actually see what's going on in there while it's running, it's not possible 23:03:21 prip [n=_prip@host58-82-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:03:34 foom: i don't like python much, or perl, but ksh93 is one of my favorite little languages, and even /bin/sh is sually good enough for anything i need to 'script'. If it's anything more than a simple scripting task, then usually it ends up in CL. 23:03:50 fe[nl]ix: can't win with this crowd :) 23:04:45 Yamazaki-kun, it looks like your macro is throwing out configuration forms other than make, model, and memory. 23:04:53 It seems to me that lisp, in theory, could be a fine language for "little things", but since most of the people using it are using it for big things, it doesn't get that kind of love. 23:05:02 drewc: sure you can, but only with small, monolithic systems 23:05:30 malsyned: sounds about right 23:06:02 Adlai: Haven't implemented yet. 23:06:04 Yamazaki-kun: also, i'm not sure why you turn all your forms into an alist before destructuring them again in your flets. 23:06:07 There's nobody to take it personally and get fired up to do something about it when someone says they like lisp but use Python for every-day programming. 23:06:09 I often use CL for "little things", but I do them from SLIME rather than make my life more difficult by pretending it's a scripting language 23:06:19 hefner: I still fail to understand what the problem is 23:06:40 do you have nifty tools for the "little things", hefner? (what type of tasks are they?) 23:06:42 hefner: yea, true enough... one-offs get done in slime 23:06:48 and indeed maybe some things are so small that I can do them in a one-off fashion at the slime repl instead of writing a script 23:07:00 maybe it's just because I'm a shell-prompt kinda guy (I know, I know...) 23:07:09 hefner: you might be a good person to ask, then. What's the equivalent of "cd" in lisp? 23:07:20 ,cd 23:07:26 (at the slime-repl) 23:07:28 Adlai: that's "in slime" 23:07:32 malsyned: it depends what you mean by 'cd' really 23:07:44 change current working directory 23:07:47 Adlai, thanks! 23:07:47 malsyned, ANSI CL doesn't have the concept of a current working directory 23:07:52 drewc: Seemed like a good idea at the time. Guess I could use find to pull out the appropriate form to do stuff to without all the restructuring. 23:08:03 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:04 SLIME has a portability layer for whatever each implementation uses for that 23:08:21 Adlai, it may not, but most lisps, when you say (load "file.lisp") manage to load $CWD/file.lisp 23:08:49 ,cd, osicat-posix:chdir, or (setf *default-pathname-defaults*) =/ 23:08:58 There's a lot of code in SLIME that would probably be really useful to pull out into general-purpose libraries. 23:09:18 malsyned, right, because most lisps put the $CWD into *default-pathname-defaults* 23:09:45 or maybe the other way around -- swank could use code from existing libraries 23:09:47 fe[nl]ix: Me neither. I haven't seriously looked at iolib a couple years ago on account of having no documentation and depending on too many libraries I didn't like. Sorry. 23:10:00 ..(since) a couple years ago, that is. 23:10:03 Adlai, I did a little survey of lisps a while back for that, and actually they usually don't. They put something like #P"" in that variable. 23:10:23 hefner: what libraries ? 23:10:48 malsyned, in that case, I'm out of my depth. Have fun exploring the wonderful world of CL filesystem access :\ 23:11:13 hefner: other than Series, which I no longer use 23:11:15 Adlai, I take it back. Many of them do what you say, but some do something else. clisp does #P"" 23:11:50 fe[nl]ix: I was about to mention that one. I'm also irrationally unfond of most gwking-ware, in case there's any of that in there. :) 23:11:59 hefner: none 23:12:43 joy, (find 'foo bar :key #'first) is win 23:13:50 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [] 23:13:59 hmm, iolib's dependencies are actually pretty disciplined. some silly trivial-foo libraries, but otherwise it's all stuff I've given up fighting. 23:14:34 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15:08 Yamazaki-kun: isn't that assoc? 23:16:16 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.117.192] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:16:45 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:03 Yamazaki-kun: you already have an alist called CONFIGURATION-FORMS .. there is no need to use anything more than assoc really. 23:17:53 I wonder where people who know a lot about shell scripting hang out. 23:18:04 (in b4 old folks home) 23:18:42 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-xyozqhunrzgatkbt] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 23:19:19 fe[nl]ix: don't underestimate the power of NIH syndrome 23:20:17 hefner: could you be more specific ? 23:20:48 The configuration-forms paramater is a list of proper lists. 23:21:01 hefner: did you write code to render freetype glyphs with gl or was it someone else 23:21:20 xristos: wasn't that *you*? 23:21:34 xristos: I maybe did, depending on your definitions, but you're probably thinking of someone else 23:21:41 Ralith: i did too 23:21:57 but i remember seeing a master of orion-like game 23:22:03 in a blog 23:22:07 oh, yeah, that's me. 23:22:17 why's ftgl not sufficient? 23:22:32 it's too slow for my needs 23:22:38 interesting 23:22:44 so yours is much faster, then 23:22:54 hefner: is that a warning that I might easily be drawn to the dark side of the force ? 23:23:35 pr_ [n=pr@p579CAF42.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:48 drewc annotated #93161 "simpler version (untested)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93161#1 23:26:22 Yamazaki-kun: the above is how i would do it, if i were doing such a thing. 23:27:28 fe[nl]ix: no, just that disliking other people's code is a natural and healthy defensive posture (otherwise why don't we all go use C# and Silverlight, I hear they do everything), and the countless failed attempts at universal socket, file, and IO libraries detract from the legitimacy of new attempts 23:28:29 Yamazaki-kun: but i should have tested it first ! 23:28:30 :) 23:28:40 *drewc* sees at least one major error.. 23:29:37 Hm. Didn't know you could use assoc on non-dotted lists... except it's pretty obvious if I think about it. 23:29:41 see, this ftgl discussion is another example. my glue to interface with freetype is less than 200 lines of code. hardly worth pulling in some silly library from the internet to save myself that amount of effort. 23:29:44 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:13 *Yamazaki-kun* bonks self with the Wizard Book. Repeatedly. 23:31:39 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:42 and for all I know, silly libraries from the internet might have bugs or portability/deployment issues that will bite me down the road. 23:33:04 hefner: oh, the irony. I just switched back to a bitmap font in Emacs :D 23:33:07 Yamazaki-kun: a list of lists is isomorphic to an alist with list values. 23:34:30 Yamazaki-kun: a cons is a cons is a cons 23:35:06 hefner: anyway, just because the other attempts failed doesn't mean that this will fail too 23:35:28 Yamazaki-kun: the 'dot' is _always_ there, but the notation omits it when the CDR is itself a cons. 23:35:55 (or rather when the cdr is a list) 23:36:24 or nil 23:36:31 but i suppose thats special 23:36:36 Guthur: no.. NIL is a list 23:36:42 that's why i corrected myself 23:37:16 but (type-of nil) => NULL 23:37:45 Guthur: and what does (type-of (list)) give you? 23:38:23 NULL i assume, because it goes to NIL 23:38:46 Guthur: and (type-of (list 1 2 3)) ? 23:38:52 cons 23:39:09 ok its a list 23:39:34 clhs list 23:39:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm 23:39:54 "The types cons and null form an exhaustive partition of the type list." 23:40:08 but also The empty list has no elements and is not a cons. 23:40:26 right 23:40:42 but it's still a list. 23:40:53 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 23:40:55 ah o see 23:40:58 o/i 23:41:27 A proper list is a chain of conses terminated by the empty list 23:42:29 yes... but a list need not be proper to be a list : (listp '(1 . 2)) => t 23:42:37 Yamazaki-kun annotated #93161 "Yeah, definitely some improvement" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93161#2 23:43:06 nil is fun. 23:43:36 Yamazaki-kun: i think at this point it's worthwhile to ask yourself if you even need the macro 23:43:41 nil is so fun it's an atom and a list. It's like electrons being both particles and waves. 23:45:02 As opposed to a defun? Seemed like reading the CLHS the class would be defined in the function's scope if I did it that way. Am I misunderstanding the CLOS scoping? 23:45:13 yeah, except you've only got one electron in your entire heap 23:45:39 Yamazaki-kun: no, as opposed to just inlining the definitions... what does your macro gain over just using defclass directly? 23:46:25 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:30 is (defclass name (radio) () (:default-initargs ...)) really that much worse than (define-radio name (...)) 23:46:35 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:49 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:33 hm. at this point, better ot inline. 23:47:33 Yamazaki-kun: given the strange little init-memory bit, i might say maybe... but that's trivially achieved by using a constructor function (defun make-radio (name) ..) 23:48:15 Yamazaki-kun: so i'm not sure you need the macro at all really, IMHO :) 23:48:20 Of course, since nothing much has been implemented yet, we'll see what sort of WTF I can come up with later. 23:48:55 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 23:49:00 Yamazaki-kun: indeed.. you might end up with a macro at some point... it happens... 23:49:25 Yamazaki-kun: you are misunderstanding function scoping BTW... 23:51:41 Yamazaki-kun: but you really can't use DEFCLASS in a function without EVAL or COMPILE, as it's a macro and does not evaluate some things. 23:57:54 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:58:42 anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:07 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:59:13 anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:53 hehe I just did that very thing