00:00:00 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 00:01:08 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 00:01:59 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-29-175.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:02:37 Is there much benefit to (defgeneric...) opposed to implicitly created ones? 00:02:44 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:02:49 p_l: Cool. 00:03:28 (:documentation "Yes") 00:04:17 and a few more goodies such as :method-combination and the horrible :default-method-class. 00:04:18 Adlai: Thanks, had a suspicion it might be that 00:05:35 Guthur: it gives you a place to put a docstring. Some people feel that explicit defgeneric forms are a good way of documenting a protocol. Some people (and some lisp implementations) think it's good style. 00:05:46 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-035-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:13 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:06:23 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-035-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 00:06:30 ya SBCL gives warnings, I probably shouldn't be so lazy with regard to them 00:06:44 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:00 joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:16 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.81.42] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:28 There's nothing wrong with defmethods without a defgeneric. Personally, I think that warning is a bit much, but that's just sbcl's style. 00:12:20 konr [n=user@187.88.208.68] has joined #lisp 00:12:36 -!- kjbrock [n=kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 00:15:03 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.208.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:15:31 ironically, a lot of PCL's source is orphaned defmethods 00:16:17 Adlai: maybe because the gfs are defined outside of the loop. 00:17:03 pkhuong, yeah, I realize that it's done that way for bootstrapping reasons 00:17:51 rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:58 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-29-175.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:11 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [] 00:26:15 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-035-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:18 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:28 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-035-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:27:37 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:01 BCM43 [n=user@dyn-209-2-225-129.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 00:30:14 how would one check if a numeber is a whole number? 00:30:32 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.46.6] has left #lisp 00:30:56 clhs integer 00:30:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_intege.htm 00:31:12 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:31:16 BCM43, do you know how to use CL type specifiers? 00:33:57 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:00 Adlai: no, but I can learn. 00:36:46 -!- jamesstanley [n=james@82-33-61-156.cable.ubr06.stav.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:42:12 BCM43, I'm not sure if there's a good guide to type specifiers other than just reading through chapter 4 of the spec. Long story short: (integer 1) 00:42:21 ok, thanks 00:42:52 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:43:11 Adlai: when I run that in clisp, it gives me an error. Am I missing something? 00:43:27 jamesstanley [n=james@82-33-61-156.cable.ubr06.stav.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:43:49 heh, yes. (deftype whole-number () "A positive integer" '(integer 1)) 00:44:01 then try (typep 3 'whole-number) 00:44:09 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46:24 BCM43, does that help? 00:47:29 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 00:47:36 -!- BCM43 [n=user@dyn-209-2-225-129.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:06 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 00:51:07 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:08 simonft [n=user@dyn-209-2-225-129.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 00:52:16 #debconf-nyc 00:53:19 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:53:21 -!- simonft [n=user@dyn-209-2-225-129.dyn.columbia.edu] has left #lisp 00:55:31 konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has joined #lisp 00:57:45 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.33.229] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:58:50 -!- serfurj 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Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 01:26:43 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:56 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-qzgejxtdsfqjhlcg] has joined #lisp 01:30:02 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0"] 01:30:27 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 01:32:17 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:58 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 01:34:38 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:37:53 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:35 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.70] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:53 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:40:25 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-qzgejxtdsfqjhlcg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:15 postmodern needs SEQUENCE-LAST, not just SEQUENCE-NEXT 01:45:07 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:42 select currval('sequence'); is a valid SQL statement, but postgres is slightly quirky in that it attaches a sequence's value to a database session! you can read currval unless you have already called nextval within this session!!1 01:49:13 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@99.54.133.197] has joined #lisp 01:50:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:50:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:03 -!- Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:52:44 Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:11 *fusss* decides not to trust Postmodern's manual anymore and just try things .. since they already work, or at least 99% likely to work 01:57:54 Cunbuntu [n=Ucuntu@200.79.151.34.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:59 Tired of niggers? 01:58:05 the manual says sequences are unimplemented and it's best to call SQL directly. Which is a lie 01:58:11 Are you god damn sick of their monkeyshines and ape antics? 01:58:14 You are not alone! 01:58:18 Join us at CHimpout Forum 01:58:20 Cunbuntu: triggers are the only reason I moved to a decent db actually 01:58:26 http://www.chimpout.com/forum 01:58:34 oh 01:58:38 At Chimpout we are not White Supremacists! 01:58:48 We welcome nigger haters of all races who aren't niggers! 01:59:00 Check us out today! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 01:59:12 /msg chanserv op #lisp 01:59:12 01:59:15 err 01:59:16 arg 01:59:22 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 01:59:24 drewc: thanks 01:59:34 huzzah 01:59:35 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 01:59:40 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-altpqreswzmysvua] has joined #lisp 02:00:09 Cunbuntu [n=Ucuntu@200.79.151.34.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:43 -!- Cunbuntu [n=Ucuntu@200.79.151.34.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-lined] 02:00:54 heh 02:00:57 so fwiw people, dont trust the datatypes table in the s-sql manual; you can use *any* Postgres type in your code. (defclass foo () ((id :col-type serial))) gives you a sequence for free 02:00:58 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-29-175.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:01:40 has anyone gotten trac to work with git, btw? 02:01:41 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 02:01:44 *drewc* prefers to define his tables and his classes individually 02:01:47 I'm having trouble getting the plugin working :\ 02:02:02 drewc: by the way, do you use sqlite for trac?... :| 02:02:21 sykopomp: we have trac installed! <--- sum of my knowledge 02:02:30 heh 02:02:46 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:03:53 I took a small freelancing gig to install RT for a client, estimated 8 hours tops and went to work 02:04:18 let's just say the fucker took 8 hours, my whole weekened, and most of monday morning :-( 02:09:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-lqbhqewjbxuwnwyf] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:10:51 fusss: RT is considered harmful. 02:11:50 drewc: would you happen to have pointers on designing a credit/debit system where people can charge their accounts with $ and deduct points for site services? 02:11:53 lusory [n=bart@bb219-74-100-179.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:12:19 I have created an internal conversion, fixing N points to the dollar 02:12:22 -!- lusory_ [n=bart@bb220-255-247-51.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:12:37 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:13:10 -!- Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:13:14 but i have absolutely no clue on implementing credit/debit securely and properly 02:13:35 Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:48 *fusss* hasn't thought it out properly actually 02:15:40 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 02:15:43 fusss: you want to interface with a proper accounting package IMO. I've used ledger-smb for this. 02:16:15 oh 02:16:45 then i just trace the postgresql when it does somthing i want to do, and do that from my program. 02:16:58 i have been messing with jblling, even recreated the schema in Postmodern and wanted clone it just to "understand" how stuff like this is done, but it got too complex 02:17:02 ledgersmb also has a command line API of sorts, but i don't do that. 02:17:11 NICE! 02:17:22 anything that isn't Java would be sweet, actually 02:17:33 check it out, look at the manauls (which have links to general accounting info as well) 02:17:52 it's Perl .. i don't know if that's any better, but it works. 02:17:57 Perfect! :-) this is really a good late christmas gift 02:18:11 Perl is perfect 02:20:47 fusss: wgl is currently doing some work with sql-ledger, which is the predecessor of ledgersmb.. you might want to co-ordinate something with him to avoid duplicating effort 02:20:48 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-118-134.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:21:06 right-io 02:21:49 -!- Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:22:11 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:23:19 konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has joined #lisp 02:24:13 danderson [n=dave@atlas.natulte.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:52 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:11 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:30:35 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 02:34:54 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B328F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:35:56 -!- ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["g'night"] 02:38:33 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-118-134.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 02:42:30 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:42:38 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:43 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.195.127] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:51:05 potatishandlarn [i=potatish@c-f98572d5.07-57-73746f42.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:51:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:54:44 Joreji [n=thomas@40-233.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 02:55:56 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:00:02 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:05:05 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-233.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 03:05:18 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:05:59 JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:08 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@40-233.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:14:08 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:14:19 Joreji [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 03:16:05 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 03:16:06 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:19:51 froydnj: just curious - any plans to put your diff code up in a git repo? 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Which is insane, because if I knew category ID 1 was "Auto", and the "Auto" category has ID 1, I wouldn't need to deserialize the category object from database :-/ 05:05:03 (defclass category () ((id :col-type serial) (name :col-type string))(:keys (:or id name))) or similiar ORing should be preferred, imo 05:05:03 fusss: then why do you have multiple keys? 05:05:29 drewc: so I can lookup the category by either name or ID 05:05:43 fusss: i think you are confusing keys and, well, indexes? 05:06:17 (i'm not sure how pm implements it's ORM, but it does have SELECT.. doesn't it?) 05:06:19 ts* 05:06:20 its* 05:06:43 not sure. I want something like (get-dao 'category :id 1) OR (get-dao 'category :name "Auto") where the :keys class option was a hint to optimize the lookup. 05:06:49 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-51-122.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 05:07:27 i think you are confused about the role of table keys in SQL databases 05:07:28 yep, (select-dao 'category (:= 'id 1)) 05:07:37 I probably am 05:08:04 indexes are to optimize lookups, unique constraints are to make sure a value is unique 05:08:19 primary keys, OTOH, are like hash table keys. 05:08:24 if you will 05:08:34 (that's nonsense actually) 05:08:39 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:09:11 if I want to lookup a category by name, FAST, what do I do? 05:09:43 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-160-2.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:10:00 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-233.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:10:28 well, in ROFL it would be (select-only 1 'category '(:where (:= name "foo")))... sql is a declarative language... postgresl handles the 'fast' part for you. 05:10:36 I want to keep the ID as primary key, to keep things in order, but I don't want to be punished for looking up by name. SELECT * from category where name = "Auto" should be fast 05:10:47 however, if you know some property about your NAME, like it's unique, then add those contraints. 05:11:02 riight 05:11:08 forgot to make names unique 05:11:37 if there's still speed issues (on unique names there probably should _not_ be), then you add more specific indexes 05:11:46 noting that indexes can actually make things slow. 05:12:01 alright 05:12:32 postresql has a good EXPLAIN facility to actually profile queries when and if you find a bottleneck 05:12:36 there is no performance issue here, the problem is still between chair and computer, probably due to low patience due to recent, 12-day long cold-turkey quiting of nicotine 05:13:00 yeah, i know about explain 05:13:07 fusss: congrads, i've just recently quit again myself... just over two weeks now 05:13:18 wow! 05:13:48 ok, mythbusters time! 05:13:52 small world; that was her christmas present. mine was permission to eat like a pig if i have to, and a free 30 kilo threshold should i need to go there. 05:14:08 cheers! 05:18:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:33 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:29:04 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:30:38 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.50.59] has joined #lisp 05:33:10 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.137.49] has joined #lisp 05:35:45 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-29-175.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:40:30 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:41:34 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:42:00 skeptomai|away [n=nnncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:43 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:46:24 -!- necroforest [n=jarred@pool-173-79-12-74.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:53:42 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:54:12 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:55:34 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:07 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 06:02:15 30 Kg.. keep smoking :) 06:06:13 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439888.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 06:10:03 -!- cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:10:54 cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 06:12:31 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 06:19:46 lots and lots and lots of coffee also helps :) 06:22:53 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:24:26 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 06:28:57 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:29:10 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-15-164.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:30:57 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.50.59] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:33:15 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-172.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:34:04 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:35:01 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-16-16.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:38:53 apart from speed, why is Lisp better than Python for web programming? 06:42:01 minion: features? 06:42:02 features: Common lisp allows implementations to have extensions, and has an official way of testing for them, via membership of the *features* list. http://www.cliki.net/features 06:42:22 JohnnyL: try http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 06:42:37 JohnnyL: that's partly why lisp is good for programming in general. whether it is better than some other thing for a given project or domain may depend on other circumstances 06:44:17 JohnnyL: the ability to represent structured data natively 06:44:42 err? 06:44:44 structured heterogenous data 06:45:10 html is basically a bad lisp 06:45:20 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:56 rahul django has models in a MVC representation with script building on any particular update of the model schema. 06:46:08 rahul yeah i know that about html. 06:46:21 JohnnyL: MVC has nothing to do with the structured data of a page 06:46:35 but lisp is good at building compilers too 06:46:49 rahul uh , hello the v in MVC is the view, which *is* the page. 06:46:53 and converting an MVC description to an html page is basically compilation 06:48:28 JohnnyL: why not just read up on how it works and decide for yourself if you like it? 06:48:40 usually MVC code is more abstract than that, but I'm not familiar with the perversions that web app programmers create to deal with their perverse UI toolkit 06:49:33 mle i like it, but most providers/jobs/fellow programmers don't know lisp. 06:49:43 rahul yes i can see that. 06:50:25 why does a provider need to know lisp? 06:51:12 a job done well is a job done well. 06:51:25 do what you like. or don't. But self-learners tend to get farther. 06:51:27 and maybe you need to find a better community of programmers... 06:51:52 JohnnyL: with lisp you tend to write less code 06:52:08 rahul hm. well it needs to knows about arbitary processes or cpu utilization isn't going to DOS other payees of their services. 06:52:21 guaqua how? 06:52:21 JohnnyL: and lisp doesn't have a web 'framework' as mature _and_ documented as django is 06:52:36 JohnnyL: so tell them this is your app's process 06:52:37 guaqua doesn't it 06:52:45 soupdragon: afaik no 06:53:00 the suck thing about Django is that it's a monster. 06:53:22 so is the hunchentoot that guy has like 8 legs 06:53:49 acctually CL is about in the middle, still verbose, compared to Ocalm and Haskell say, but yes if you compare it to C++ or Java it is pretty terse as long as you don't have to optimize for speed 06:55:23 JohnnyL: also, with lisp you can write your application in lisp. your 'models', 'views' and 'templates' 06:56:41 Yes, as other lispers will undoubteli point of it is the macoes that can really savee you time and errors by reducing boilerplate code 06:56:49 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:57 guaqua i was giving that thought the other day. It makes more sense to leave the view/template as regular HTML as in HTML-TEMPLATE. 06:58:41 use with some care though. As Dough Hole in Let over lambda shows, they can also be a tool for code obfuscation if overused. 07:00:03 Younder it doesn't seem very insightful to say "____ can be obfuscatory if overused" 07:00:59 Terseness is probably something to be avoided, in general. 07:01:40 soupdragon, I think it is. The point is it is better to use the CL library well than make a lot of maros over them as a new reader unfamiliar with the macroes find it tough to read. As I said take a look at LoL for practiacal examples.. 07:03:10 macros are tough to read and understand. Documentation helps. 07:03:47 http://letoverlambda.com/lol.lisp 07:04:29 JohnnyL: i haven't used HTML-TEMPLATE and i have my doubts about it aswell 07:04:44 Zhivago: better to say a language is concise than terse. 07:04:54 though some are definitely terse. 07:05:14 i just think you might end up with less code in the end as you don't need to wrestle your way through the constraints of django's templating system 07:05:54 and you don't need to have the django templating reference in front of you, but can rely on the same lisp reference you use when writing lisp 07:07:06 plage [n=user@113.161.70.110] has joined #lisp 07:07:12 Good afternoon! 07:09:12 guaqua yeah thats a big plus indeed. 07:09:50 guaqua The docs are huge. lol 07:11:01 lisp is the tool lispers use. and it's a malleable language, so malleable that there rarely is need to describe the program in anything else but lisp 07:11:46 in contrast to python where you are more encouraged to create parsers and a separate language to do some things than to modify the language to your needs 07:12:02 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:13 this almost as much of a social issue than it is a technical one 07:12:44 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:14:55 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:15:07 why studder<\n> when you can (:i Lisp) :) 07:15:10 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:31 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 07:16:41 s/\n/\b/ 07:16:47 yeah 07:17:40 -!- marioxcc-AFK [n=user@200.92.182.147] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:28:20 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:32:12 hmmm. SBCL on Android yet? 07:32:41 Hi. 07:33:09 why would you want to program Lisp on your mobile.. under windows.. ? 07:33:28 Any mp3/ogg library in CL, that can play a file, and seek to a specific time frame/position? 07:33:36 tic: I would think you best bet would be clisp 07:33:51 Younder, what /windows/? 07:34:15 andoid is a M$ mobile OS 07:34:15 Younder, possibly. android looks quite sexy. 07:34:17 No. 07:34:21 Android is a Linux OS. 07:34:57 With a strong javaly bent. 07:35:09 and GoogŁe 07:35:12 ;) 07:35:27 Zhivago, Yeah. Ignore that part for a while and look at its technical merits -- the concept of intents is cool. 07:35:57 Oh, I think that the java orientation of it is a technical merit. 07:36:02 You do? 07:36:12 android has gotten further than maemo and has been there for a shorter while 07:36:16 it has the momentum 07:36:19 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 07:36:43 Yeah, it escapes the trap of having to recompile all of your software for crazy arm or whatever horrible archtecture they come up with next. 07:38:13 Yeah, I remeber there was a lot of Arm wresling to get Opera to work. 07:38:38 It's a form of future-proofing, imho. 07:39:01 So I expect that all of the android stuff will work under chrome-os in a straight-forward fashion. 07:39:43 Younder, I'll give my regards to my colleague across my desk. he ported Opera to Maemo. :-) 07:40:07 Zhivago, right, I forgot Dalvik compiles to byte code. 07:41:04 Axioplase_: mixalot, if you're using linux (or don't mind doing the audio output part yourself) 07:41:04 (the is a CPU arcitecture called Strong ARM...) 07:41:21 Axioplase_: does mp3 via libmpg123, not ogg at present 07:41:47 There's really quite a few appliances coming out with ARM these days. Like the Lenovo Skylight. 07:43:59 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:53:05 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:53:08 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:53:21 good morning 07:54:23 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 07:57:06 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-118-134.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:59:17 hello mvilleneuve 08:00:53 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 08:01:00 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:47 Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@sms4-pool118-0096.bmts.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:14 -!- Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@sms4-pool118-0096.bmts.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:07:00 hey guys, how are you donig? 08:10:40 fine, thanks. you? 08:11:49 howdy 08:11:49 *kingdon* waves 08:13:42 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-112-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:14:13 tic i'm good. 08:21:52 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:22:59 nicdev [n=user@st401-159.subnet-252.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 08:24:53 splittist [i=513eceaf@gateway/web/freenode/x-xbjzjolmakbmnlom] has joined #lisp 08:24:56 morning 08:26:43 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B7F1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:54 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.177.21.48] has joined #lisp 08:33:48 -!- nicdev [n=user@st401-159.subnet-252.amherst.edu] has left #lisp 08:33:59 hello splittist 08:35:54 nicdev [n=user@st401-159.subnet-252.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 08:36:16 hello plage. Snowing in Saigon? 08:36:58 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-76-131.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:37:12 -!- nicdev [n=user@st401-159.subnet-252.amherst.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:38:10 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 08:39:46 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:41 clhs readtable 08:40:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_rdtabl.htm 08:43:40 -!- blast_ha` is now known as blast_hardcheese 08:44:17 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229110201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:46:49 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:49:05 I'm doing up a lib, compiling in Lispworks, getting an error I don't understand: 08:49:05 08:49:05 Object # is of type FUNCTION which is not externalizable to #. 08:49:46 I'm not entirely sure where this is coming from or what it means. 08:50:01 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.160] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:50:42 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:51:50 nicdev [n=user@st401-159.subnet-252.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 08:52:33 -!- oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:27 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:05:06 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has left #lisp 09:05:07 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B7F1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:05:08 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 09:06:56 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-14-215.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:08:24 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-51-122.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 09:09:48 Modius: You get something that sounds kind of like that when you try to put a function value in a macro. 09:09:53 iirc. 09:10:01 (or, presumably, any unreadable data) 09:10:22 Ralith: Can you be more specific? You mean have a function value returned by a macro? Or something else? 09:10:58 Sounds like you're trying to compile to a file containing a function object rather than the instructions to create a function object. 09:11:40 Zhivago: I'm having trouble pinpointing the cause - is there something specific I should look for? 09:12:17 Well, it's trying to write a sxhash as a function object into your fasl. 09:12:24 So I'd look at where you use sxhash. 09:12:57 Zhivago is putting it better than I. 09:13:17 *Ralith* sort of wonders why lispworks treats fasls as latin-1 09:13:20 aren't they binary? 09:14:13 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:14:31 I'm not using sxhash 09:15:30 In what way do I control the emission of function-objects into the fasl? 09:15:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:18:10 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:18:26 Do you use #. ? 09:19:36 Yes 09:19:45 Look there. 09:19:52 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442074.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 09:20:23 Does it have to be #.#'sxhash or some function? 09:20:54 No, it could be more subtle than that. 09:21:30 Anything involving hash-tables? 09:25:43 Yeah - what would cause this - having a macro return a hash-table or subset thereof? 09:26:15 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 09:26:15 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 09:26:59 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:25 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 09:27:55 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:28:04 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28:09 -!- yoonkn_ [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:13 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 09:29:51 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 09:30:26 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:32:04 how do I start a swank server from a standalone program that I generated with (save-lisp-and-die :executable t)? 09:32:39 :toplevel #'(lambda() (swank:create-server)), but I don't know how to wait for its thread.. 09:33:22 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:34:43 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:35:46 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:39:23 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:42:40 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.130] has joined #lisp 09:43:04 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:44:44 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-182-4.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:44:45 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 09:45:19 i give up. what's the postmodern CLOS syntax for specifiying uniqueness constraints for a slot/row ? 09:46:13 -!- Guest52568 [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Client Quit] 09:46:27 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 09:47:36 I have tried a :unique t slot option, or a :unique key class option. (apropos found a :unique keyword, and grep shows traces of it in the postmodern/s-sql sources) but how is it applied in the Lispy syntax? 09:47:40 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:47:58 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:48:34 the tests and sources only show its application as an explicit s-sql sexp, (execute (:create-table ...)) 09:48:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 09:52:10 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:53 :constraint followed by (:check :primary-key :unique and :foreign-key) those are all undocumented. the docs say "This is just the bare simple definition, so if you need any extra indices or or constraints, you'll have to write your own queries to add them" ... 09:54:10 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:55:10 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:58:34 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:58:35 -!- bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:59:21 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 09:59:54 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:59 -!- Xof_ is now known as Xof 10:00:16 Is it possible to run several sbcl on one system? 10:00:24 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 10:01:56 yes 10:05:44 plage [n=user@118.68.196.81] has joined #lisp 10:05:49 newuser [i=5f41125c@gateway/web/freenode/x-pcwicbwufeezrkim] has joined #lisp 10:05:52 -!- newuser [i=5f41125c@gateway/web/freenode/x-pcwicbwufeezrkim] has left #lisp 10:06:35 splittist: As much as it always does. 10:06:53 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:07:02 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:38 *plage* just programmed 4 CL seminars for next week. 10:09:56 plage: for how long are you staying in Vietnam? 10:09:58 plage: what level/what audience? (If you don't mind me asking.) 10:10:33 mvilleneuve: Until the end of next week. Leaving here the 16th. 10:10:55 splittist: It's open to the public, so I am starting with an introduction, and then gradually increasing the level. 10:12:22 splittist: 1 intro, 2 basic techniques (classes, GFs, list processing, first-class functions), 3 Advanced techniques (method combinations, macros), 4 CLIM. 10:12:57 plage: nice and steep! 10:13:30 Yeah, the purpose is not that the master these techniques in the end, but that they have seen what can be done. 10:13:35 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:15:58 has anyone made McCLIM pretty yet? 10:16:11 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 10:16:13 Nope. 10:16:21 plage: how long are those seminars? 10:16:31 1 hour each. 10:16:54 I could make them longer, but then 1 I would be exhausted, and 2 fewer would come. 10:17:17 sure, 1 hour sounds ideal for a quick demonstration 10:17:29 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442074.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 10:19:00 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:15 Ralith: But kenanb made some noises the other day that he might do something about it. 10:19:27 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:19:40 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:54 plage: was that the guy who was going around denouncing everyone's logos? 10:20:23 Ralith: Could be. I don't know. 10:20:41 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:20:55 'kay 10:21:07 here's to hoping it goes somewhere. 10:21:09 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit ["leaving"] 10:22:16 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:22 Is it the case that a compiled lisp function cannot contain references to a function? 10:23:18 -!- bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:23:32 I mean, to an actual function reference 10:23:38 Modius: What makes you think that that might be the case? 10:23:57 plage: Tracing what my macros are doing 10:24:14 plage: And the error I mentioned earlier 10:24:25 *plage* checks the logs 10:25:42 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:26:14 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:26:19 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:26:53 Modius: I am guessing that a compiled function can contain a function reference, but that you can't write it to a .fasl file. 10:27:21 plage: Yeah, just getting my head around that - I guess it makes sense 10:27:32 Modius: But i admit not having checked whether it works, nor what the CLHS says. 10:27:42 I figured it out - I am using my const-hash-table that references sxhash 10:27:46 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:53 I mean, I *think* that's it 10:28:02 The const-hash-table is working; but the sxhash in it is failing 10:28:19 You helped me realize it of course, and I'm starting to lose my mind as it's 4:30 at my timezone 10:28:22 Modius: Did you try putting that in a function defined interactively, and compiling that function? 10:28:46 plage: Yeah, this function was used elsewhere (tangle of macro crazy involved though) - but it makes perfect sense. 10:31:06 plage: who is studying CL in 'nam? 10:31:15 HCMC I am guessing 10:31:37 I met a few programmers, but they were doing .NET 10:31:53 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:32:19 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 10:32:59 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 10:33:08 Holcxjo [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:14 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:33:44 -!- Holcxjo is now known as h_durer 10:35:29 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:36:39 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:37:31 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:39:46 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:39:46 fusss: Nobody really. That's why I am giving the seminars. 10:40:00 alright 10:40:10 very curious and energetic students there 10:40:12 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:40:24 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 10:40:51 yeah, especially our master students many of whom have some experience from the software industry. 10:41:01 I forgot the street names, but I used to sit at out door cafe next to the museum of american aggression, and chat with high school kids in uniform who went to a school right across the street there. 10:41:22 Nguyen Thi Minh Khai? 10:41:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:31 probably 10:41:47 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:41:49 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229110201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:42:34 I stayed at Pham Ngu Lao (sp?) and there was a massive park nearby. I use to jump on a bike with a friend and go to an outdoor beer joint ($1 bia baba hole) right in the computer market. plenty of IT people there. they used to grill me for answers, etc. 10:43:53 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:47:23 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:49:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:52:20 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:20 -!- nicdev [n=user@st401-159.subnet-252.amherst.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:54:46 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:54:47 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 10:55:12 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:39 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B7F1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:01 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 11:02:05 besiria [n=user@83.212.84.106] has joined #lisp 11:05:47 kuwabara2 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has joined #lisp 11:05:47 -!- kuwabara1 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:07:20 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:25 i can has multiple slime repls? 11:08:49 Yes 11:09:19 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-58.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:09:32 google says slime-mprepl package 11:09:41 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:16 i just need a small "terminal" to debug a multithreaded/network app; just an output window/buffer, now a full blown repl 11:11:14 i don't seem to have M-x slime-open-listener 11:11:53 nm, http://bc.tech.coop/blog/070425.html 11:12:24 udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:15:49 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:16:13 joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:59 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:23 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B7F1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:18:58 Oh, thanks a lot, fusss. 11:19:18 spoofy: huh? 11:19:35 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 11:19:37 for googling for me :) 11:22:06 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.131.46] has joined #lisp 11:24:15 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.137] has joined #lisp 11:25:37 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:25:47 plage` [n=user@118.68.196.81] has joined #lisp 11:26:03 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.81] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:26:10 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.137.49] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:26:11 -!- plage` is now known as plage 11:26:53 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:24 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28:42 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 11:30:06 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-65-203.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:30:35 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:20 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31:55 I'm having trouble handeling the cl-cookbook request's due to a password Edi never gave me sorry for the inconvenience. I'll try to resolve it as soon as possible so all 13 outstanding requests can be processed. 11:36:11 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:36:52 Younder: what is the problem that the cl-cookbook intends to solve? 11:42:02 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:50 presumably to make people happy who come from Perl and expect such a thing to exist 11:43:24 (How that could possibly involve younder is a different question, I guess.) 11:45:43 I Took over the administation from Edi Weitz as he had too many balls in his court. 11:45:49 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 11:46:04 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-58.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:46:10 plage, just look it up 11:47:45 Younder: I did, and it says it's like the Perl Cookbook, but since I don't know what problem the Perl Cookbook solves either (I don't know Perl), I was asking instead. 11:48:12 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.137] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:48:26 plage, well like a cookbook it contains recepies for recognized problems. 11:49:32 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:49:32 Which? well see for yourself. And feel free to add to it. 11:50:24 Douglish [i=dal@horinek.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:21 I wonder how obfuscating (REMOVE list :key #'accessor :test (complement #'eql)) is 11:51:33 Hi everybody. Whould anyone know if is there any implementation of lisp for symbian? 11:52:08 the :key #'accessor looks suspcious 11:52:08 Douglish: There's a scheme-like dialect for palm, perhaps that one runs on symbian too 11:54:10 In fact it would never work. But I suspect it is a outline for a spesific accessor. Apart from that what is the complement of #'eql? Seems ill defined. 11:54:11 'morning 11:54:55 tcr: Thank you. 11:56:31 tcr: i'd prefer :test-not 11:56:32 stassats, memo from tcr: (require :named-readtables) M-x slime-open-system RET named-readtables-test RET results in an error 11:57:26 hello Fade 11:57:41 hi stassats. 11:57:43 how are you today, plage? 11:58:32 Fade: right now, very well thank you. I am having dinner at the hotel in TP HCM with a nice glass of Australian Shiraz. 11:58:54 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:58:54 not quite 7am where I am. :) 11:59:02 Fade: What about yourself? 11:59:07 Oh. :) 11:59:21 i'm caffeinating, and looking at the work I did yesterday. 11:59:28 standard startup proceedure. :) 11:59:29 stassats, test-not is deprecated. not that it will ever go away 11:59:33 That's usually a bad idea. 11:59:40 (asdf:system-definition-pathname (asdf:find-system "named-readtables-test")) for some reason returns NIL 11:59:51 Younder: i don't care about what's deprecated 12:00:00 well, the work I do today depends on it, and I didn't get time to test any of yesterday's hacks. 12:00:05 stassats: I think it may be because named-readtables-test also resides in named-readtables.asd 12:00:51 minion: thwap to me 12:00:52 Fade: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 12:01:11 stassats: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/498277 12:01:23 stassats: Bah it's even me who reported it :-) 12:02:11 Fade: Why the thwap? 12:02:45 I wanted the url 12:05:40 Has anyone a readable-syntax hack for hash-tables available, i.e. custom reader macro + print-object method 12:05:47 tcr: so, just work around it? 12:06:27 stassats: No, I'd say better not. Having Slime error in this case may move someone to fix the actual issue. 12:06:52 complement in mathematical tems refers to structural equality (equal) 12:07:07 bytbox_ [n=scott@ogodei.mbhs.edu] has joined #lisp 12:07:23 s/tems/terms/ 12:07:48 -!- bytbox [n=scott@ogodei.mbhs.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:07:54 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:07:55 tcr: then maybe include url to the ticket in an error message? 12:08:17 stassats: Heh 12:08:40 stassats, agreed, in this case. test-not is a lot better 12:09:20 Hmm I'd actually like to have some advice facility for switching-on, switching-off some design-by-contract like wrap-arounds 12:09:30 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:09:31 ejs [n=eugen@116-39-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:05 stassats, we wouldn't be in this predicament in the first place if 'not' wasn't a macro 12:10:07 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 12:10:50 stfu 12:10:51 NULL isn't a macro, so what? 12:11:02 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 12:11:40 so you can't pass not as a funtion argument. you would need (lambda (x) (not (eql x))) 12:12:12 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:12:17 Younder: ? 12:12:36 Younder: you have NULL, now show me how this would help 12:12:49 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:12:55 macroes can NOT be passed as function arguments 12:13:20 I do not have NULL 12:13:37 i have not 12:13:43 'not' 12:13:46 clhs not 12:13:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_not.htm 12:13:56 oh well, here we go again 12:14:23 clhs macro-function 12:14:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm 12:14:34 oh, looks like you can pass macros as function arguments after all! 12:14:40 and NOT is a function 12:14:49 Adlai, my bad 12:15:31 Younder: Oh, how I wish you would check a bit before uttering wrong things. 12:15:43 Adlai, so it should be 'not' and not 'complement'. But you still need a designed cruury function 12:15:56 plage, so in hinsight do I 12:16:17 Younder: you are talking nonsense 12:16:18 buh 12:16:30 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:16:33 Younder, what should be 'not' and not 'complement'? They're two completely different functions. 12:16:48 stassats, apparently. Sorry for that 12:17:40 Joreji [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:17:53 stassats, AND and OR are macros. I guess I just 'assumed' NOT was too. My bad! 12:18:15 Younder: I guess one of the differences between you and me is that I am very rarely sure of myself, so I check the facts, whereas you are sure, except that you are wrong. 12:18:21 feel free to check that 12:19:07 Younder: that doesn't make NOT a substitute of COMPLEMENT 12:19:24 confidence fail. 12:19:47 plage, yes, it will probably follow me to my dying day. Thanks to people like you I do however learn. If in a public and humilliating fashion. 12:20:26 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-29-175.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:20:36 stassats, that was my point 12:21:05 Huh I just found a huge braino in named-readtables 12:21:27 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zdapdgngrdjesmyl] has left #lisp 12:21:42 Younder: that's a rather pointless point 12:21:45 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FA8F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:35 stassats, Complement is a set operation, not is a logical operation. Not is always well defined. complement isn't. How is that? 12:22:49 and suddenly I see why packages are not anonymous in CL 12:23:37 -!- besiria [n=user@83.212.84.106] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:23:48 Younder, please /msg specbot clhs complement 12:23:52 Younder: complement is well defined in Common Lisp 12:24:14 stassats, yes. But it would be a misuse 12:24:23 If they were, and there were a function REGISTER-PACKAGE which would give name to a package object; you could associate one package object with different names 12:24:30 what should package-name return in that case? 12:24:36 plage: so is the rumour that you are beach true? is this your other-continental persona or? :) 12:24:38 Younder: no, it's used for operations on sets 12:24:53 tcr, it should behave like find-class / class-name 12:25:07 hi is it the same doing: '(4 3) and (list 4 3) ? 12:25:12 no 12:25:17 Adlai: classes are not anonymous either 12:25:22 BrettS [n=kirin@c-24-20-88-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:29 no? 12:25:31 aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:25:38 lisperati_boy: the first is a literal object 12:25:50 whats the difference between them? 12:26:02 lisperati_boy: conceptually, they're the same, but you can't modify literal objects 12:26:04 can't you (make-instance 'standard-class ...), and have an anonymous class? 12:26:05 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:08 Joreji_ [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:26:09 and not predicates. although boolean logic is defined in terms of sets the complemet set can contain many elements whereas no has a simple true/false definition 12:26:19 but they work the same? 12:26:26 s/no/not/ 12:26:27 Adlai: Well perhaps I'm not well versed in clos, at least ensure-class takes a name :-) 12:26:31 so there no difference which one i use? 12:26:48 lisperati_boy: no, there's a difference i just told you 12:27:16 what do you mean i cant modify literal objects? 12:27:32 Adlai: How does find-class/class-name behave? 12:27:37 clhs class-name 12:27:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_class_.htm 12:27:40 stassats: Please tell the nice Vietnamese people at my desk where you are located! 12:28:03 lisperati_boy: well, i mean precisely that 12:28:16 plage: i'm in Russia 12:28:33 stassats: Thanks! 12:29:26 stassats are you russian? 12:29:48 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:13 well, Russian is my mother tongue, but that's off-topic 12:30:22 you can make anonymous classes. class-name returns a name (or nil), which need not be the same as something that (find-class ) can use to look up the class 12:30:23 Adlai pasted "FIND-CLASS vs CLASS-NAME" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93012 12:30:38 tcr, see the above paste. 12:30:53 something is the proper name of a class if and only if (class-name (find-class )) == 12:31:29 ENSURE-CLASS does [much more than] (setf (find-class ) (make-instance 'standard-class :name )) 12:31:50 tcr: you can associate a package with multiple names, thanks to package nicknames 12:31:52 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:08 Well sure 12:32:22 still, anonymous packages would be nice 12:32:39 tcr, are your named-readtables like classes in this regard? 12:32:52 Xof: When is the class-name set? In ensure-class? 12:33:15 the class-name is set by the :name initarg to class initialization 12:33:23 in the shared-initialize method on standard-class 12:34:04 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:35:18 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:35:40 stassats: You made my day (or evening)! Now I have two waitors here who would like to install Ubuntu GNU/Linux to try out something other than Vista. 12:35:41 Is there a way to give an anonymous class a proper name after the class was created? 12:35:57 (setf (class 12:35:59 gah 12:36:01 (setf find-class) ? 12:36:11 (setf (class-name class) name (find-class name) class) 12:36:24 plage: i wonder how 12:36:28 (setf class-name) is not ansi at least 12:36:34 mop class-name 12:36:44 http://l1sp.org/pcl/mop/class-name 12:36:50 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:51 bleh, -pcl/ 12:36:58 stassats: You would have to be here to see how impressed they were with IRC, and then all the rest of my installation. 12:37:16 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:37:25 reinitialize-instance class :name name 12:37:30 plage: i see 12:37:44 ah 12:38:44 stassats: This is subversive activity at its best. I am afraid I just used you as a means to an end. 12:38:50 Thanks Adlai, Xof. 12:39:24 (you also need the (setf find-class)) 12:39:52 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 12:39:56 Joreji [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:39:56 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 12:41:02 I do have equivalents to class-name, find-class, (setf find-class); seems like I also have to export (setf class-name), and introduce the notion of a proper name 12:41:20 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:41:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:41:32 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 12:42:54 -!- kuwabara2 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:43:34 kuwabara2 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:34 tcr, I'm working on the first issue in your email now. 12:44:12 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:44:53 -!- BrettS [n=kirin@c-24-20-88-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:45:07 one question -- do source locations need to be unique objects? 12:45:25 "mu" 12:45:44 I'm just wondering if there's a reason why swank-sbcl uses (list :error "No error location available") instead of '(:error ..) 12:45:52 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:02 No there's no reason, in fact it should use make-error-location 12:46:19 Joreji_ [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:46:39 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:01 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:47:11 Adlai: the convert-errors-to-location in swank-sbcl.lisp should perhaps be moved into swank-backend.lisp so other backends can use it too 12:47:35 (and it probably given a better name, at very least convert-errors-to-error-locations) 12:48:28 tcr, I don't see that, but I see a macro converting-errors-to-locations, is that what you mean? 12:48:43 yes 12:50:25 actually, it looks like part of swank-sbcl's compiler-note-location doesn't do what it's supposed to: shouldn't (unless (open-stream-p stream) (bailout)) have a return-from ? 12:50:39 aeter [n=adr@host-static-87-116-84-9.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:45 -!- aeter [n=adr@host-static-87-116-84-9.mreja.net] has left #lisp 12:51:12 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:51:56 Adlai: very true 12:52:07 I fixed that locally, I'll commit it later 12:52:20 ok. 12:53:20 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-65-203.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:53:36 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-130.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:54:47 particcularly look at http://www.thegeekstuff.com/2009/01/12-amazing-and-essential-linux-books-to-enrich-your-brain-and-library 12:54:59 tcr, I think the small functions under compiler-note-location could move to swank-backend.lisp 12:55:45 sorry, wrong channel 12:56:51 Adlai: I'm not sure about that 12:57:24 hm, maybe I misunderstand them. 12:57:33 there's a certain amount of duplication across backends 13:00:47 hmm, when is (eq (pathname ) :lisp) ? 13:01:12 *Adlai* is wondering about swank-sbcl's compiling-from-buffer-p 13:03:09 I don't know but it's supposed to be triggered in case we come there from swank-compile-string rather than swank-compile-file 13:05:01 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:05:08 seems like a refactoring mistake 13:05:19 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.177.21.48] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:16 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:09:13 Adlai: that's for the use in locate-compiler-note 13:09:44 to trigger compiling-from-generated-code-p rather than compiling-from-buffer-p 13:09:49 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B7F1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:11 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Client Quit] 13:10:39 tcr, I see, and :lisp gets returned sometimes by sb-c::compiler-error-context-file-name 13:10:49 yes 13:11:10 I'll add a comment 13:13:23 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 13:15:50 [stoop] [n=stoop@188.51.98.99] has joined #lisp 13:16:14 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:17:09 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.137] has joined #lisp 13:17:12 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:51 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:04 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:39 *Younder* is reminded of the aristotele vs. plato corners in philosophy. Plato questions everything, aristotelie supplies answers, but they are often wrong. 13:21:22 tcr, how about an M-. location for swank backend implementations? Even though there's only one loaded into an image at any one time, it could be convenient to choose whether to view the definterface or the defimplementation 13:22:10 back when definterface, defimplementation where based on defgeneric/defmethod that came for free 13:23:12 why were they changed to using the symbol-plist? 13:23:27 no idea 13:23:58 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-44-119.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:26:35 Joreji [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:26:48 -!- austinh [n=austinh@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:19 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-44-119.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:31:04 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:32:54 Joreji_ [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:33:15 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:33:48 -!- [stoop] is now known as stoop 13:34:34 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-32.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:35:42 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229110201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:12 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has joined #lisp 13:36:46 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-037-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:49 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-037-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 13:37:57 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@45-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:48:01 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:22 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 13:49:25 Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@79.138.134.0] has joined #lisp 13:50:01 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as Elwaway 13:50:59 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-76-131.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Later, mini LAN party."] 13:52:25 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:53:00 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:29 User160 [n=User@p548E4A91.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:29 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:05 Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:54:43 -!- User160 [n=User@p548E4A91.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54:54 User160 [n=User@p548E4A91.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:33 -!- User160 [n=User@p548E4A91.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:55:44 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.177.21.48] has joined #lisp 13:56:57 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:21 mathrick pasted "Plexippus compile failuer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93015 14:00:37 has anyone tried compiling plexippus on clisp? 14:00:40 I get the above error 14:00:45 it compiles fine on SBCL 14:02:05 try in table using (hash-value accum) 14:02:20 newfurniturey [n=darkcida@74.93.195.210] has joined #lisp 14:03:12 Xof: yay, thanks 14:03:29 (why do people still use LOOP?) 14:04:40 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:46 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:06:59 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:30 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-247-36.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:08:58 mathrick: you prefer iterate? 14:09:07 yay LOOP! 14:09:56 LOOP - standard, reliable, easy to read, and thoroughly understood 14:10:13 it's definitely nice not to have yet another dependency. 14:10:30 Fade: definitely 14:10:48 i like it too, but I got tired of installing it everywhere. :) 14:10:54 Fade: everyone has ITERATE installed already, and it's only 1000x better than LOOP 14:10:58 so i just bit the bullet and came to terms with loop. 14:11:06 I find LOOP more readable 14:11:16 LOOP is insane 14:11:33 it's definitely awkward 14:12:27 I prefer loop. I also don't have iterate on dozens of boxes. 14:12:44 pkhuong: aye, that was what I ran into. 14:12:53 also, different lisps. 14:12:58 *Fade* shrugs 14:13:01 different lisps what? 14:13:05 *stassats* just doesn't want to learn iterate 14:13:22 *Adlai* doesn't get what the fuss is about, all you need is catch and throw. 14:13:26 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.194.235] has joined #lisp 14:13:40 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B7F1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:13:45 stassats: it's easy as pie for standard usage, just more parseable and lispy 14:14:26 I find loop much more parseable to the human eye because it's easy to see what's iteration sugar and what is code 14:14:39 i love FORMAT and LOOP 14:14:40 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:57 writing format is loveable indeed, reading less so ;-) 14:14:59 tcr: it's exactly the opposite for me 14:15:15 and writing FORMAT is fun, no doubt :) 14:15:25 stassats: I'm with you! 14:15:56 goddammit linux, stop halting for 5 minutes every time I think about saving, it stops being fun after the second time 14:16:17 mathrick: in laptop mode? 14:16:33 dlowe: I don't believe so, never put it in laptop mode myself 14:16:37 mathrick: How are you these days? 14:17:01 mathrick: usually that only happens when the drive spins down *shrug* 14:17:18 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 14:18:04 plage: unbad, currently in Poland, trying to work on my thesis 14:18:46 dlowe: it doesn't happen just once, it's a prolonged, 5-10 minutes bout of everything halting when it happens to stand near disk IO 14:19:06 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 14:19:08 with something being listed as using 100%CPU in iowait, but not traceable with iotop 14:19:19 Which kernel are you using, mathrick? Which release? 14:19:33 Linux hatsumi 2.6.28-14-generic #47-Ubuntu SMP Sat Jul 25 00:28:35 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux 14:19:49 good God, emacs just came back, after 9 minutes 14:19:54 it's insane 14:20:10 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:20:18 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:20:34 also clisp insists on hijacking my commandline options, despite me giving :executable 0 to EXT:SAVEINITMEM 14:21:09 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 14:23:09 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-0168.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:24:02 -!- aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:22 mathrick pasted "Correct use of EXT:SAVEINITMEM?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93017 14:25:56 there ain't many clisp experts in here 14:26:29 bummer 14:26:54 you're asking because it doesn't work? 14:27:06 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:28:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 14:28:50 stassats: yes 14:28:56 and it seems it's new in 2.48 14:28:59 and I have 2.44 here 14:29:01 which explains 14:29:22 I hate it when suppressing default implementation processing is made hard 14:29:32 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-037-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:38 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-037-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 14:30:54 oh well, ECL here I come 14:33:45 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:03 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:15 *Xach* needs fixes to his google calendar xml parsing 14:40:23 Axius [n=ade@92.82.89.13] has joined #lisp 14:40:39 is that an XRFI? :) 14:41:12 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212095021202.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 14:42:54 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:43:08 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 14:45:08 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:34 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 14:46:34 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:49:49 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212095021202.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:52:14 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:59 -!- Elwaway [i=HydraIRC@79.138.134.0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:53:59 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 14:53:59 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:45 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 14:57:52 mathrick: Sorry I am not very reactive right now. I have the privilege of spending the evening with the manager of this restaurant (that I happen to know from before) and that takes priority :) 14:57:59 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439888.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:58:24 plage: sure, take your time. It's good to know all's good with you then :) 14:58:49 mathrick: Thanks :) 14:59:32 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:59:38 mathrick: I keep thinking we had a pretty good time even though you spent some time getting to my niece's house. 15:00:41 mathrick: why are you using 0 as true for :executable? 15:01:14 mathrick: Why don't you use *filename* for the file name in #+clisp? 15:01:45 0 has a special meaning 15:02:50 Oh, this is something new I didn't notice. 15:03:42 -!- bytbox_ is now known as bytbox 15:04:16 0 is rather nondescriptive choice 15:05:43 -!- ejs [n=eugen@116-39-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:57 mathrick: when the init function exits, it goes to the toplevel, perhaps you want to wrap it in (lambda () (funcall *toplevel*) (ext:exit 0)) ? 15:06:18 Other than that, what doesn't work? 15:07:35 nicdev [n=user@st401-159.subnet-252.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 15:07:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:09:20 -!- nicdev [n=user@st401-159.subnet-252.amherst.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:09:44 what's the favourite sockets API for sbcl fans? sb-bsd-sockets? 15:10:05 i like usocket 15:10:39 lukego: i wrote my own because i don't like sb-bsd-sockets very much. 15:11:17 *Xach* has modest needs 15:11:27 lukego: bsd-sockets are nice enough if you're already comfortable with bsd sockets... usocket works very well though, ime. 15:11:57 I wrote my own too 15:12:27 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:12:32 "ugh" :) 15:12:32 fe[nl]ix: but you're not the only one using yours! 15:12:49 but fair enough :) 15:13:16 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:13:21 Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:13:31 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:13:48 I can't claim that I know iolib's (i.e. fe[nl]ix's) sockets very well, or what I've used them extensively, but I've built an API similar to emacs processes for Hemlock, and iolib worked very well for that. 15:15:10 lichtblau: do I need smoke HEAD for Hemlock ? 4.3.4 doesn't compile here 15:15:46 strix [n=ade@92.84.20.247] has joined #lisp 15:16:22 rlb3 [n=user@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:58 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:17:07 I kinda asked this in the past, and was on my mind a bit earlier today and alst night again. When it comes to testing Common Lisp, having tests against the various different implementations of CL (sbcl, clisp, etc) sounds like a helpful thought - has anyone investigated a way of developing something like an automated testing framework to test against all the distributions? 15:17:55 AFAIK no 15:17:57 Or is it even really wortwhile to automatically test like this? Part of me feels developing a test framework to support multiple distributions is a bit painful of a task. 15:18:09 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.137] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:27 TDT: there might be something in pfdietz's test suite. 15:18:35 TDT: gwking had something set up like that, asdf-test-status or something ... 15:18:39 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:18:47 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.89.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:19:05 fe[nl]ix: actually I recommend working with the tty backend at the moment. 15:19:14 TDT: It really only tested asdf-install, but adding a test-op after the install shouldn't be too hard if you can get it to work. 15:19:24 i'll check both of those, at the very least it should help give me some ideas about how to implement something like this 15:19:33 I've also got the CLX backend as a separate .asd ready in my disk here, but haven't pushed that change yet. I'll do so later this week. 15:19:49 Definitely something I think the community would appreciate having though. 15:20:02 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-233-111.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:10 If you'd really like to try the Qt backend, you need the commonqt from git, and you need a kdebindings from svn recent enough that the shared libraries have SO version 3. 15:20:33 danlei [n=user@pD954F1C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:34 I think I'll pass then :) 15:23:04 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 15:26:15 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:26:41 clhs 15:26:44 chls 15:26:48 chls aref 15:26:53 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:26:55 clhs aref 15:26:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm 15:27:40 lichtblau: http://gitorious.net/qthemlock/ says 404 15:27:48 whose fault is this? 15:28:39 i've found just /hemlock, is that right? 15:29:10 TDT: ansi tests does not have a good infrastructure 15:29:23 stassats: yes 15:29:28 arquebus [n=quassel@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 15:29:56 TDT: you should talk to _deepfire about desire; also the dwim.hu guys are onto automatic testing; there's also some automatic testing endeavor by juanjo (ecl maintainer) 15:30:07 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:31:24 Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:31:53 TDT: also see https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/479478 15:32:36 can someone remind me how to tell SBCL where its (lisp) sources are on disk? 15:32:40 (for M-.) 15:32:59 TDT: I do have interests in that topic as a future keen user, but I don't want to get drawn into hacking it up myself :-) 15:33:08 (setf (logical-pathname-translations "SYS") '("SRC;**;*.*.*" "/path/to/your/sources/**/*.*")) 15:33:24 thank you 15:33:32 tcr: Thanks for the information about that. I haven't used test-op a whole lot, but is something I'll look into and talk with those that you mentioned. I'm glad to see there's a bit a drive for a better test suite. 15:34:03 TDT: There are more fundamental problems 15:34:41 tcr: Like what specifically? 15:35:03 TDT: read that launchpad entry 15:35:43 and discussions on asdf-devel; at the moment there's no real way for TEST-OP to inform its caller whether it run successful, or not. 15:36:12 The real problem is that nobody has the balls to hack asdf :-) 15:36:39 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:37:17 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.75.144] has joined #lisp 15:37:23 incidentally, is asdf the right place to put a :inhibit-style-warnings t option? 15:37:35 lithper1 [n=chatzill@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:43 yeah, that part I understood - I haven't used test-op, so my lack of knowledge is probably why I'm not understanding ottally. 15:38:26 Reading through the mailing list entries a bit, making test output in standard-output is a bad idea for sure. 15:39:44 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:25 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.75.144] has left #lisp 15:41:30 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:43 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:03 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:42:07 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:18 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 15:42:26 Xof: how can I make that translation work for contrib/ (e.g. sb-bsd-sockets) too? 15:42:29 nicdev [n=user@umass-958-247.wireless.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 15:42:55 add a line with ("CONTRIB;**;*.*.*" "/path/to/your/contribs/**/*.*") 15:43:13 not very googlable, but it is in the manual: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Lisp-Pathnames.html 15:43:15 lukego: or build from source (: 15:43:49 fe[nl]ix: my expectation is that once linux distributions start shipping the next version of KDE, all kdebindings stuff will be much easier to install for users 15:43:54 this is built from clbuild 15:44:31 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:44:51 lukego: and M-. doesn't work? 15:45:25 Never mind, I have that translation in .sbclrc too. 15:46:03 stassats: I renamed back to just "hemlock" because there's no reason to stick a "q" in front of a multi-backend application. 15:46:37 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:46:52 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:53 when I `M-.' and have multiple options, SLIME pops up a buffer listing the options, but doesn't put the point in there. is the idea to `C-x o' and then RET the right one? 15:47:38 there's some binding to cycle through them 15:49:38 C-M-. 15:50:00 but i find it inconviniet, since i don't want to cycle through all of them most of the time 15:50:08 Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:51:52 ah that seems nice to me actually. how about dismissing the buffer? 15:52:14 C-x 1 15:52:20 C-M-, goes previous 15:52:35 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:52:56 lukego: Also checkout M-? 15:53:03 `C-h k C-M-.' weirdly says find-tag-regexp 15:53:18 in a .lisp buffer? 15:53:19 in slime-mode? 15:53:38 yes 15:53:47 pressing `C-M-.' in that buffer does walk definitions in slime 15:54:03 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:54:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.75.144] has joined #lisp 15:54:24 "walk definitions" is ambiguous here 15:54:45 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.194.235] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 15:55:09 I mean it's navigating the *slime-xref* buffer as advertised 15:55:29 no big deal, just weird, since it seems like emacs is mis-reporting a key binding 15:55:35 ah ok, but C-h k on it reports wrong thing? 15:55:40 right 15:55:56 dunno wfm 15:56:46 `M-?' is causing something weird / hang kind of behaviour. I don't think Emacs is getting it. I wonder if OSX / Carbon Emacs is treating it weirdly? 15:57:02 doh, i can't get emacs from git anymore, and this bizarre bazaar isn't working for me 15:57:10 You can also try M-_ which is a synonymous 15:57:23 shintaro [n=quassel@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 15:57:29 -!- arquebus [n=quassel@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:58:32 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:33 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:01:51 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:55 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 16:03:06 ;;; Error: Not a valid function name (SETF GETHASH*) in declaration (INLINE (SETF GETHASH*)) 16:03:20 that's what ECL tells me, is it actually not a valid function name? 16:03:35 seems like a bug 16:03:45 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:03:48 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:04:33 -!- shintaro [n=quassel@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:04:36 arquebus [n=quassel@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 16:07:05 -!- Ober_ is now known as Ober 16:07:16 stassats: how bizarre, how bizarre 16:07:40 danlei` [n=user@pD954F1C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:40 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F1C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:07:46 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 16:08:24 tcr: yeah, changing that to a DECLAIM helps 16:08:40 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.75.144] has left #lisp 16:09:33 In fact I remember someone (perhaps even me) having reported that 16:09:35 are you on HEAD? 16:11:00 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.75.144] has joined #lisp 16:11:36 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:11:37 -!- arquebus [n=quassel@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:25 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:33 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:18:57 Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483CC7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:20 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:29 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.13.201] has joined #lisp 16:19:53 -!- strix [n=ade@92.84.20.247] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:20:17 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 16:22:05 -!- blandest1 is now known as blandest 16:23:50 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:24:04 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:25:30 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F1C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:26:43 stassats: could you add M-x slime-save-system? 16:27:38 i can, but a little bit later 16:27:47 sure 16:27:50 after i fight with bzr 16:29:21 what's the issue? I have to get emacs from it too 16:29:27 (in future) 16:29:46 [stoop] [n=stoop@188.52.94.207] has joined #lisp 16:30:15 it's using too much memory and i ran out of patience waiting it to finish more than an hour 16:31:07 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:37 doh, and now i've accidentally deleted libc 16:32:23 tcr: people on emacs-devel have been complaining the the initial checkout can take up to 2Gb of resident memory and hours to complete 16:32:23 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 16:32:56 Yeah I'm on emacs-devel too but I only read occasional bits 16:33:19 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:19 there's no git mirror? 16:34:35 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:37 not yet, as i understood 16:34:52 sctb [n=sctb@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:18 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 16:35:28 irc2samus [n=samus@static-200-71-6-99.techtel.com.uy] has joined #lisp 16:36:34 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:36:54 -!- Yuuhi` [n=user@p5483E7F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:22 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213142126046.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 16:38:23 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.166.247] has joined #lisp 16:44:10 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:40 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.75.144] has left #lisp 16:44:42 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 16:48:32 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:50 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.75.144] has joined #lisp 16:52:04 tcr: there's an emacs git repository on repo.or.cz, but whoever pushes to it often introduces merge conflicts when you pull. 16:53:10 fe[nl]ix: What version control software does the emacs project use? 16:53:24 Oh, bzr. 16:53:32 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:53:44 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:53:52 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:55 froydnj: hmm I wanted to tell you something but now I forgot :-/ 16:58:26 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 16:59:03 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:26 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-037-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:31 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-037-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 17:00:48 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:02:30 -!- nicdev [n=user@umass-958-247.wireless.umass.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:05:04 nicdev [n=user@umass-958-247.wireless.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 17:08:07 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:08:13 gko [n=gko@114-136-100-186.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:45 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:13:10 milanj [n=milan@109.93.8.68] has joined #lisp 17:13:12 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:16:45 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-115-247.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:17:01 -!- [stoop] [n=stoop@188.52.94.207] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:17 [stoop] [n=stoop@188.54.29.209] has joined #lisp 17:17:45 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 17:19:27 -!- splittist [i=513eceaf@gateway/web/freenode/x-xbjzjolmakbmnlom] has quit [] 17:23:54 testsan [n=testsan@p3217-ipbf5304marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:25:59 clhs nth 17:25:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm 17:30:35 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:30:47 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.90.1"] 17:32:09 hi 17:32:11 one question 17:32:25 i have a list with random values and i want to change the first value to 1 17:32:27 im doing this 17:32:29 (setf j (loop repeat 3 collecting (random 1.0))) 17:32:33 and then 17:32:44 (setf (nth j 1) 3) 17:32:46 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 17:32:58 but im getting error 17:32:59 any idea? 17:33:07 lisperati_boy: i would use (setf (first j) 1) 17:33:22 lisperati_boy: you have the order of arguments to NTH wrong 17:33:28 why nth doesnt work? 17:33:40 oh ok 17:33:41 lisperati_boy: (nth 1 j) would be more likely to work. 17:33:51 lisperati_boy: but that would change the second item in the list, not the first. 17:33:54 oh its the oposite than aref? 17:34:26 haven't you read the link? 17:34:26 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 17:34:44 yes 17:35:01 yes you haven't? 17:35:37 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:41 yes, but why is the order the oposite than aref? is there a specific reason? 17:35:45 yes i have 17:36:20 clsh aref 17:36:24 clhs aref 17:36:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm 17:36:31 lisperati_boy, are you referring to aref and nth? 17:36:40 yes 17:36:54 ya that bugged me too, hehe 17:36:54 lisperati_boy: why do you care? 17:37:15 im curious why the order is the opossite 17:37:31 the order isn't opposite, just different 17:37:47 lisperati_boy: probably the reason has more to do with history than with logic.. 17:37:54 ah ok 17:37:58 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:38:52 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 17:39:09 aref can have N only at the end, homework: why? 17:39:34 ummm 17:39:51 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:58 because of the history? 17:40:07 needs to know the array to index 17:40:11 lisperati_boy: nope, because there arrays can be multidimensional ;) 17:40:25 where as nth needs to know the number to iterate across the list 17:40:25 list cant be multidimensional? 17:40:26 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( anyway... then nth should have taken the index at the end too ) 17:40:35 im creating a blog with my lisp codes 17:40:40 right, and even zero-dimensional 17:40:42 this is the cellular automata im working on 17:40:44 What does it mean for a list to be multi-dimensional? 17:40:45 check: 17:40:46 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/imagenes/automata_estructura.png 17:41:08 (aref array) works too 17:41:09 here is the code 17:41:11 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/la_bestia/ 17:41:22 here 17:41:22 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/la_bestia/?p=3 17:41:25 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-14-215.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:41:57 *stassats* is scared to go by this link 17:42:04 why? 17:42:11 good thing i don't have libc anyway 17:42:14 the code is stupid i now 17:42:24 we talked about this before 17:42:35 having nth inside a dotimes is stupid 17:42:44 *know 17:43:13 Avoid thinking of linked lists as mappings from index to value. 17:43:17 lisperati_boy: you'd better use arrays if you frequently need access to a random index 17:43:26 If you want that use a more suitable data-structure such as an array or hash-table. 17:43:35 yes mishoo im doing the second version of that code with arrays 17:43:37 Or trie, or ... 17:43:38 im finishing it 17:43:59 but speed doenst get better 17:44:15 i thought it was going to be much faster with arrays, using aref inside dotimes 17:44:19 instead of nth 17:44:28 but theres not too much different 17:44:31 its still slow 17:44:37 lisperati_boy: maybe it's just not noticeable for your test case (or maybe the bottleneck is some place else), but it *should* get better 17:44:46 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:44:49 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:59 look the automata its a bit complex 17:45:00 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/imagenes/automata_estructura.png 17:45:09 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:45:11 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:45:15 it have 45 iteration in 3 dimensions 17:46:05 mishoo how can i see if theres a bottle neck? 17:46:27 lisperati_boy: profiling is usually a good way 17:46:51 whats that? 17:46:56 clsh profiling 17:47:03 clhs profiling 17:47:04 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for profiling. 17:47:04 lisperati_boy: it is a technique for finding bottlenecks. 17:47:21 how does it work? 17:47:34 lisperati_boy: http://t-b-o-g.blogspot.com/2009/12/brians-brain-on-common-lisp-take-3.html is an article about profiling with sbcl 17:47:40 lisperati_boy: maybe it will help you understand 17:47:44 thans dude 17:48:30 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:48:41 last question 17:48:50 can lists can be multidimensional? 17:49:01 yes 17:49:09 Your question doesn't make any sense. 17:49:20 ? 17:49:21 why not 17:49:37 What does it mean 'to be multidimensional'? 17:49:48 ummm 17:49:50 Generally this means to accept a multidimensional index. 17:50:07 As for multi-dimensional arrays, maps, and so on. 17:50:17 multidimensional i think is when i have an array inside an array 17:50:29 That's not multidimensional. 17:50:45 whats multidimensioanl? 17:50:47 So your question should be "can lists be nested?" and the answer is "yes". 17:51:04 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 17:51:04 Multidimensional is where you can use a multidimensional index to find something. 17:51:08 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:18 (aref a x y) is a multidimensional lookup. 17:51:24 oh yes 17:51:37 (aref (aref a x) y) is two unidimentional lookups. 17:52:06 oh yes 17:52:23 thanks 17:52:55 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:07 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:53:20 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:54:42 lisperati_boy: dunno how to profile Lisp yet.. sorry if I made false impression, I'm still a newb ;) 17:55:07 You may need to read your implementation's documentation to find a good way to profile. 17:56:13 c|mell [n=cmell@125.24.109.33.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:58 what do you mean with profile lisp? 17:57:02 whats profile? 17:57:55 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:58 lisperati_boy: uhm, finding bottlenecks 17:58:01 for SBCL sb-sprof is good tool for code profiling 17:58:06 a ok 17:58:08 is/is a 17:58:20 thanks aill check oout 18:00:06 there is also CL time macro, though that is also tied very much to the implementation in terms of its output 18:00:18 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:27 I haven't used it to be honest, I just use sb-sprof 18:00:57 profiling is something specific to common lisp or is something that exist in other programming languages? 18:01:13 lisperati_boy: exists in all languages. 18:01:25 also in java? 18:01:29 Of course. 18:01:43 ummm 18:01:44 ok 18:02:15 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.75.144] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:02:22 lisperati_boy: you mean you never heard the word before? 18:02:47 lisperati_boy: the same tools that provide profiling data often also provide coverage data. 18:03:05 lisperati_boy: so you may google for both profiling and coverage. 18:03:07 yes i heard it 18:03:14 i have this in my note book 18:03:17 If you're on OS X, the easy way to do that is run Activity Monitor. 18:03:17 Run it, then run your sketch: it can show you the running threads, the garbage collection cycles, and even more interesting, the CPU and memory profiling 18:03:49 Well, in Activity Monitor you get a view at a coarser level. 18:03:50 :P 18:03:57 lisperati_boy: well, profiling a program that you develop should tell even more interesting data 18:04:20 Here, we want to know the time spent function by function, or even instruction by instruction, and for coverage, we want to know whether each instruction has been executed. 18:04:24 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dswqvaqoafwfzdfe] has joined #lisp 18:04:24 profiling is the same as memory profiling? 18:04:34 lisperati_boy: such as what functions were called most oftenly, and the time spent in there -- usually a small improvement in a function that is called a zillion times will lead to a significant overall improvement 18:04:34 lisperati_boy: not exactly. 18:04:44 ummmm 18:04:59 lisperati_boy: here profiling is knowing where time is spent (time can be counted as physical time, or as number of times an instruction is executed). 18:05:08 lisperati_boy: so profiling doesn't make your program better, but it helps you do so 18:05:41 lisperati_boy: it helps you know what you should optimize first, and what doesn't need to be optimized. 18:06:00 and whats memory profiling? 18:06:12 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:15 Knowing what memory areas are used. 18:06:28 and what is that useful for? 18:06:39 It serves to optimize memory accesses. 18:06:52 why do i need to know the memory areas used? 18:06:55 To choose allocation/deallocation or cache or virtual memory algorithms. 18:07:00 ummm 18:07:23 Because you can change your algorithms to use memory accesses that are more efficient in a given processor or system. 18:07:47 For example, on modern memory chips, it is often faster to access it sequentially than randomly. 18:07:47 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( does anyone actually do that? :) ) 18:08:17 mishoo: people doing some embedded stuff with real time constraints might do. 18:08:31 -!- nicdev [n=user@umass-958-247.wireless.umass.edu] has left #lisp 18:08:38 oh, does this works for shaders? or gpgpu ? 18:08:48 Yes, too. 18:09:09 :) 18:09:22 mishoo: not just for speed; power consumption too. 18:09:23 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:29 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:12:50 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:14:36 look, im trying to convert this code that is made with nth and list to the same but with aref and array 18:14:37 look 18:14:43 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-037-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:51 this is the original: 18:14:52 (gl:translate (- (patch-x (nth i (nth j (nth k l)))) 120) 0 0) 18:15:04 and i make this: 18:15:05 (gl:translate (- (patch-x (aref (aref (aref a k ) j) i)) 120) 0 0) 18:15:16 is it ok? 18:15:21 lisperati_boy: perhaps you can use a multidimentional array? (aref a i j k) 18:15:26 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:46 If all the vectors at a given depth are of the same length... 18:15:48 yes im using a multidimensional array 18:15:58 Then you need (aref a i j k). 18:16:02 (setf a (make-array (list 3 3 3))) 18:16:09 You cannot reference only a column with aref. 18:16:16 oh 18:16:19 s/column/slice/ 18:16:20 ok thanks ill fix it 18:16:35 Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:16:53 nostoi [n=nostoi@71.Red-79-157-250.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:55 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@71.Red-79-157-250.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:17:01 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:17:44 (gl:translate (- (patch-x (aref a i j k) ) 120) 0 0) 18:18:22 is it fine? 18:18:49 Perhaps. Be careful with the indices. Depend on how you translated the lists to the multidimentional array. Perhaps you need (aref a k j i)? 18:18:59 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.13.201] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:20:39 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:52 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:24 konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has joined #lisp 18:23:38 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 18:23:56 oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:16 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:25:03 ummm 18:26:32 im getting this: 18:26:32 Error in DRAW: The value (#S(PATCH :C 0.65737 :T 1 :X 0)) is not of type PATCH. 18:26:49 Looks like you have a list here. 18:28:07 Joreji_ [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:28:24 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:29:48 but i didnt define a list 18:29:56 i just have this: 18:29:56 (defstruct patch (c) (t) (x)) 18:30:20 Show us the form where DRAW is called. 18:30:47 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-20-98.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:31:22 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.177.21.48] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:28 ok 18:31:36 *_3b* guesses the problem is the initialization of the arrays, not DRAW 18:32:03 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:32:08 mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:32:34 Axius [n=ade@92.82.73.214] has joined #lisp 18:33:04 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:33:21 here it is 18:33:22 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/la_bestia/?m=201001 18:33:36 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-130.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:38 Here, we like lisppaste ;-) 18:33:42 lisppaste: url? 18:33:42 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:34:03 ok 18:34:06 See, you put a lis in the array: (setf (aref a i j k ) (list (make-patch :c (random 1.0) :t 1 :x 0))) 18:34:10 mine is like lispaste 18:34:15 did you see the link? 18:34:15 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/la_bestia/?m=201001 18:34:21 Yes. 18:34:25 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213142126046.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:25 For the next time. 18:34:29 ah ok 18:35:11 oh yes 18:35:17 how it should be? 18:35:32 We cannot know, it depends on what you want. 18:35:53 im creating an array called a 18:35:55 (setf a (make-array (list 3 3 3))) 18:36:05 Is it an array of lists or an array of patch? 18:36:09 3 dimensional , it contains the cells of the cellular automata 18:36:17 then im filling it with random values 18:36:28 an array of patch 18:36:30 Probably you want to just remove the call to LIST. 18:36:43 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-15-164.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:36:57 (setf (aref a i j k ) (make-patch :c (random 1.0) :t 1 :x 0)) 18:37:50 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-235-190.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:54 (setf (aref a i j k ) (make-patch :c (random 1.0) :t 1 :x 0))))) 18:39:05 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:14 galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-95.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:40:08 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229252028.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:53 now im getting a new error 18:40:54 Error in DRAW: invalid array index 3 for #3A(((#S(PATCH :C 0.65737 :T 1 :X 0) 18:40:55 #S(PATCH 18:41:25 (should be nonnegative and <3) 18:42:00 <_3b> lisperati_boy: what do you expect (make-array (list 3 3 3)) to do? 18:42:11 <_3b> clhs make-array 18:42:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 18:42:15 Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:42:33 lisperati_boy: indices go from 0 to N-1 18:42:40 N being the dimension. 18:43:01 3b i want to create a 3dimensional array 18:43:16 You've got it. 18:43:21 What are the dimensionS of that array? 18:43:40 If you don't know, try: (array-dimensions a) 18:43:42 the way how indices work for accessing data? 18:44:19 Assume we have a vector: (make-array 3) What are the valid indicies for this vector? 18:45:32 0 1 and 2 18:45:35 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:45:40 Right. 18:45:46 the problem is here 18:45:47 (gl:translate (- (patch-x (aref a i j k) ) 120) 0 0) 18:45:57 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:06 Why do you give it a index of 3? 18:46:17 -!- [stoop] [n=stoop@188.54.29.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:35 What is the value of *n* here? 18:46:45 because its inside 3 nested dotimes 18:46:49 [stoop] [n=stoop@188.51.59.252] has joined #lisp 18:47:07 lisperati_boy: read: clhs array-dimensions and clhs array-rank 18:47:07 the value of n is 45 18:47:09 (defvar *n* 45) 18:47:29 Therefore you should create an array with (make-array (list *n* *n* *n*)) ! 18:47:36 thats the number of the cells per dimension of the cellular automata 18:48:00 Then why did you create an array of dimensions (3 3 3) instead of (45 45 45)? 18:48:43 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-32.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:43 -!- galaxywatcher_ is now known as galaxywatcher 18:48:50 Notice that a vector is a 1-D array that means that it has only one dimension, not that its dimension is 1. Your 3D array has three dimensions. Each dimension being 45. 18:49:04 the number in 1D, 2D, 3D, etc is the RANK of the array. 18:49:11 oh yes 18:49:19 i was using 3 instead of 45 18:49:31 i changed but now im getting another problema 18:49:33 problem 18:49:34 Error in DRAW: The value 0 is not of type PATCH. 18:49:54 There's also a confusion possibly coming from the fact that (in maths) we put often the indicies in a vector, and the indicies of a 3D array are put in a 1D array (a vector) of dimension 3: (x y z). 18:50:11 bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #lisp 18:50:13 lisperati_boy: yes, it's normal to get another problem. It's what we call debugging. 18:50:16 ummmmm 18:51:04 So you are debugging. At each error, it's the same: you must identify where the problem occurs (you can do that), and then you must identify why the problem occurs, and where the source of the problem lies. 18:51:14 So you get a 0 instead of a patch. Good. Why? 18:51:24 Who put a 0 there? 18:51:40 pfeyz [n=user@146.95.65.217] has joined #lisp 18:52:12 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@125.24.109.33.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:19 <_3b> lisperati_boy: how much of that array did you initialize? 18:52:32 it works now 18:52:40 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:41 yes i just initialize 3 18:52:42 c|mell [n=cmell@118.173.102.90.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:51 but now i put 45 and it works 18:52:51 lisperati_boy: of course everywhere you hardcoded a 3, you need to use *n* instead! 18:52:57 :P 18:52:58 All these dotimes loops... 18:53:00 NO! 18:53:01 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:53:02 yes 18:53:04 Don't put 45! 18:53:10 it works with 45 18:53:17 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 18:53:23 this is painful. :) 18:53:25 No it does not work! 18:53:33 (setf *n* 100) and it will break again! 18:53:33 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:53:41 oh right 18:53:48 thanks ill fix it 18:54:03 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dswqvaqoafwfzdfe] has left #lisp 18:54:56 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:55:24 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229110201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:36 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@154.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:56 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:39 mooglenorph [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:57 is it fine if i convert this: (incf xx (patch-c (nth (+ i ii )(nth (+ j jj )(nth (+ k kk ) l))))) 19:00:11 to this: (incf xx (patch-c (aref a (+ i ii ) (+ j jj ) (+ k kk )))) 19:00:30 That seems correct, yes. 19:00:35 ok thanks 19:00:43 fine, because both are equally unreadable to me 19:01:20 where's my save-system? :-) 19:01:43 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:01:47 I also just got the idea that autodoc should be able to cope with setf forms 19:02:11 oh, i've just recovered my system from libc deletion, thanks for reminding 19:02:33 how did you do it? 19:02:44 backup? 19:03:38 from live cd 19:04:52 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-037-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:05:42 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:05:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:56 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-170-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:26 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-170-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:09:29 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 19:11:38 -!- george__ [n=george@189.13.129.181] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:11:49 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:04 stassats: I wonder how one could do a ,restart-lisp-and-restore-state 19:12:25 i wonder too 19:12:41 I'd like it to reload all loaded systems, and to set *package* to the previous value 19:12:59 wow it worked thanks guys 19:13:09 new version of the cellular automata is much faster 19:13:41 restore-state is probably bad wording for what I described. Can you think of something better? 19:14:26 <_3b> ,restart-lisp-and-reload-systems-and-reset-*package* ? :p 19:14:43 -and-make-some-tea 19:15:14 tcr after having loaded your systems the first time, save the lisp image. 19:15:48 that doesn't help with the *package* bit 19:16:15 you guys really restart your lisp often enough to care? (says I, while waiting for ECL to build an executable) 19:16:39 tcr: of course it does. Check the documentation for #+clisp ext:saveinitmem 19:16:46 i often screw something inside image 19:16:55 *_3b* usually restarts it to get rid of state 19:17:00 tcr: for sbcl it's more complex, but you can set it to reset the *package* as you want. 19:17:02 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 19:17:15 (save-lisp-and-die :executable t :toplevel (let ((pak *package*)) (lambda() (setq *package* pak)))) ? 8-) 19:17:19 hefner: I don't want to have hidden state affect the results of my test suite 19:17:43 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( sorry if that's totally stupid but I feel that something along these lines should work.. but I'm a newb :D ) 19:17:44 mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has joined #lisp 19:17:48 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:53 custom cores are just hassles 19:19:18 Basically, one per big application you're developping... 19:19:31 I'm not hence it's just a hassle 19:19:32 *hefner* never saw the point of saving cores 19:19:45 I make one with all the dependencies, so that I just have to load the changing application while developing. 19:19:49 i always just reload everything 19:19:58 That may take some time. 19:20:01 Saving cores saves a lot of time when you reload it. 19:20:12 in a world where something as big as mcclim loads from fasls in <10s, it seems like a non-issue 19:20:12 pjb: It makes sense for big applications, but not for small open source project, where one day you hack on A, and the other day on B 19:20:16 I like saving the core (executable) because I can easily take that on another machine and just run it.. 19:20:32 Of course, the alternative would be to spend 1200 EUR on a new OctoCore @ 3GHz... 19:20:36 mishoo: I think that's a different issue. 19:20:37 seems to me that Lisp beats everything else concerning "easy deployment" 19:20:38 tcr: sure. 19:21:58 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 19:22:23 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7557b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:29 jmbr [n=jmbr@154.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:23:06 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:24:00 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.73.214] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:24:20 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-170-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:28 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 19:25:11 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:25:34 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:50 Woah weird. *standard-in* and *standard-out* seem to be buffered by default in SBCL. How do I change that so that my interactive prompting code works? 19:29:34 oh I guess I could use finish-output 19:29:42 Use cl:*standard-input* and cl:*standard-output* perhaps? 19:30:12 they're buffered 19:30:37 *hefner* just sticks a (finish-output) in before he reads input from the user 19:30:38 I think I'm better off getting in the habit of using (finish-output) 19:30:46 Yes. 19:30:52 For interactive I/O, sure. 19:31:20 In C too you need a fflush after a printf if you follow it by a fread or gets... 19:31:27 yup. 19:32:45 Hmm, reading thorugh http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/cf2c45a2009ca8fa?pli=1 and having used alists earlier today - what is the difference between a hash table an an alist? They seem very much the same to me at the moment. 19:33:15 that hash table is a hash table and alist is a linked list 19:33:40 TDT: well in hash-table vs. alist (or plist), the speed advantage of (small) lists is even more pronounced than in the case of structures vs. lists. 19:34:02 But of course, for bigger containers, hash-table wins. 19:34:36 depends on the usage pattern, though 19:34:47 pjb: any rough size figure at where that swing happens 19:34:51 gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:57 Guthur: 11 19:35:00 Guthur: completely implementation dependent. 19:35:18 Guthur: 5 for sbcl, 35 for clisp. 19:35:31 -!- Draggor is now known as Dra`vi 19:36:13 <_3b> it is easier to override parts of an alist in a local binding too 19:36:14 -!- Dra`vi is now known as Draggor 19:36:19 pjb: I'd expect the threshold to be lower in an interpreted implementation... 19:36:31 stassats: Because hash tables have a hash function the key goes into finding the location of the associated value I'm assuming, where as through an alist we'd have to follow it from beginning til the element we wanted to find - am I right about that? 19:36:34 Computing hashes is slow. 19:36:44 (for anything but small integers). 19:36:45 ok cheers, I tend to just use a hashtable, its gethash is there when i profile but not too bad yet 19:36:51 here is the new version of the cellular automata 19:36:54 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/la_bestia/?m=201001 19:36:58 is much faster 19:36:58 its gethash/gethash 19:37:17 i have one question 19:37:31 Traveler1 [n=traveler@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 19:37:35 TDT: right, worst case random access for alists is O(n) 19:37:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:07 the automata generates diferent kind of architectural structures, i would like to send the structures to a 3d software, which do you think is the best way of save the structures? 19:38:33 lisperati_boy: obviously, you wil have to save them in the format accepted by the 3d software! 19:38:51 stassats: Yeah, that makes sense, was using alists a lot recently, but the number of elements is less than 30 at the moment...I don't know if it's faster or slower than a hash table though. 19:39:13 lisperati_boy: obj file format is simple enough 19:39:40 ummmm but i also gonna to construct the structures in the real world 19:40:06 lisperati_boy: then you will need a 3D printer. 19:40:16 it would be good to have a txt file with a list of cubes with its positions 19:40:19 the ultimate in low-rent data export, if your 3D package has some kind of scripting capability, is just to dump out script code that reconstructs the object when you execute it, rather than dealing with the native file formats 19:40:27 i have some 3d printers 19:40:28 Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:40:51 lisperati_boy: do you realize you are using the same word for two different things? 19:41:05 what do you mean? 19:41:28 There are structures made with defstruct, and "structures" described with a 3d model, and real concrete physical "structures". 19:41:37 So that makes three different things. 19:41:39 o yes 19:42:03 i was talking about 3d shapes, or architectura structures, not structres from defstructs 19:42:10 *architectural 19:42:29 Ok. So the first question is how you represent them. Perhaps using defstruct structures? 19:42:34 Perhaps otherwise? 19:42:56 did you see the code? 19:42:58 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/la_bestia/?m=201001 19:43:51 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:44:02 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:08 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.177.21.48] has joined #lisp 19:44:10 each cube is a object made with defstruct 19:44:21 Once you've choosen a computationnal representation (a data structure) to represent your architectural structures, you will still have to choose a file format. 19:44:44 the algorithm works in this way: 19:44:50 lisperati_boy: Is that your web site? 19:44:59 If you don't use CLOS objects, and some other opaque data type (eg random-states, etc), then you can use the lisp printer and lisp reader to save and load your lisp data structure. 19:44:59 stassats: that's assuming comparison is in constant time. 19:45:04 i create a 3d matrix of cubes, this is made with a 3 dimensional array 19:45:25 (let ((*print-circle* t) (*print-readably* t) (*print-escape* t)) (print your-architectural-structure)) 19:45:38 the initial condition are random, each cell has a random color value, at the begining of the software 19:45:47 Then you can recover it with (read). 19:46:07 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-115-247.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:46:16 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:46:17 lisperati_boy: yes, but you don't store a random-state in your data structures, so it'll be ok. 19:46:31 then each cell looks at its neighbours, if the sum of the colour of its neibougrs is more than a threshold then it moves the cell far away, if not it stays 19:46:37 that creates the ilusion of 3d structure 19:47:13 so i was thinking it would be good to create a new array just with cube that create the 3d shape and not the ones that are moved far away 19:47:25 *cubes 19:48:26 the thing is i want to evaluate each structure, i want to look in all the universe of possible 3d shapes to find a shape that can fit my desing problem 19:48:57 which would be the best way of doing this? 19:49:20 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-170-170.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:51:34 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-112-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:52:43 lisperati_boy: since there are probably a lot of different 3d shapes, a good way to find one that fit your problem is to use some kind of genetic algorithm. 19:53:25 austinh [n=austinh@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:38 ummm 19:55:04 but theres a problem with that, i want to evaluate a structure, not a code 19:55:19 genetic programming works on anything. 19:55:29 but theres a problem with that, i want to evaluate a 3d structure or shape , not a code 19:55:44 You must have a fitting function ("fit your problem"), and a population of individuals (they can be anything). 19:56:22 You select the best indidividuals with your fitting function, then you generate new individuals from the selected population in some way (using genes or otherwise) and repeat. 19:57:16 In general, an evolutionary algorithm, if you don't have a "gene". 19:57:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Evolutionary_algorithms 19:58:21 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.177.21.48] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:55 ummm 19:59:23 i thought this: 19:59:52 Have a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_VFZ_ON0A8 19:59:57 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:42 i can have a 3d shape for example an obj model, then i create my shape with my automata and see if the shape created is similar than the obj model 20:00:52 this is for the evaluation part 20:01:15 Yes, this is the application of the fitting function. 20:02:02 so the evaluation part must be something like : it iterate all over the cells, and check if it collides of superimpose to the 3d model i loaded, if the shape generated is similar (there are a lot of collisions> then the fitting is good 20:02:07 what do you think? 20:02:12 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 20:02:33 Yes. But you also need a way to combine the good shapes to make new ones. 20:02:34 cool thanks for the video 20:02:42 So that you can repeat the process. 20:02:50 yes, thats the problematic part 20:02:54 how can i do that? 20:03:20 -!- h_durer [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:03:25 Well, since you have spatial features, you could cut two shapes in two, and paste back the pieces. 20:03:26 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:37 yes, that would be nice idea 20:03:39 cool 20:03:48 Or since you have numbers in them you could do operations on them, such as average, sums, multiplications, etc. 20:03:49 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:04:07 -!- [stoop] [n=stoop@188.51.59.252] has quit [Client Quit] 20:04:24 Whatever. That's where the fun lies in evolutionary programming, you can try anything and see what results you get. 20:04:35 i was thinking a lot of ideas for making functional structures in the real world, i also thought using psychics for evaluating the structure, for example if a structure can maintain its own weight withouth collapsing 20:04:50 Physics you mean. 20:04:55 yes that 20:05:07 Sure if you have tests such as that,you can integrate them to the fitting function. 20:05:18 You can make a weighted average of different tests. 20:05:19 should clbuild configure sbcl's logical-pathname-translations? 20:05:40 prxq [n=mommer@g228074105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:46 that might be difficult, i want to make the easiest possible evaluating structure function now, then i can experiment with more complex stuff 20:05:49 hi 20:06:26 what do you mean with a weighted average of different tests? 20:07:05 hey pjb that video is cool 20:07:15 thats similar of what im trying to do 20:07:24 how does that code works? 20:07:34 lukego: it does this by building sbcl 20:07:35 (defun fit (shape problem) (/ (+ (* a1 (physically-sustainable shape)) (* a2 (match shape problem)) (* a3 (is-beautiful shape)) (* a4 (is-not-too-heavy shape)) ...) (+ a1 a2 a3 a4 ...))) 20:07:44 lisperati_boy: there are links. 20:08:00 lisperati_boy: I'd bet he provides the code. 20:08:10 -!- pfeyz [n=user@146.95.65.217] has left #lisp 20:08:10 cool!! 20:09:06 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:11:15 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:12:27 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-170-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:30 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:16:39 hm I reloaded slime.el and somehow the lisp-mode key bindings are stealing precedence. anyone know the fix off hand? 20:18:54 anyone know if the Linux socket IOCTLs SIOCINQ / SIOCOUTQ are trustworthy? looks like you can implement a large-scale proxy using only a single userspace buffer, just by peeking how much read/write space the kernel has and never having to hold anything in the application 20:19:49 shhh, not so loud 20:21:03 (would it be softer in parenthesis?) 20:21:36 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-037-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:58 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:22:03 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A3C49.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:08 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-037-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 20:22:32 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:22:55 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.8.68] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:24:03 Holcxjo [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:09 minion: memo for stassats: thanks for slime-save-system 20:24:10 Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 20:24:19 -!- Holcxjo is now known as h_durer 20:24:22 benny [n=benny@i577A2D9F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:38 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-yuwapynjompgscbp] has joined #lisp 20:27:19 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-4-171.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:27:49 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 20:28:28 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:30:13 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:57 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:31:59 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7557b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:53 Axius [n=ade@92.82.73.214] has joined #lisp 20:37:19 good nite everybody thanks for the help 20:37:20 bye 20:37:24 -!- lisperati_boy [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has quit [] 20:38:14 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7557b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:58 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7557b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:27 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442074.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:40:31 -!- gko [n=gko@114-136-100-186.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 20:42:52 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-95.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 20:43:13 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:43:18 -!- testsan [n=testsan@p3217-ipbf5304marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:43:43 lukego: TCP proxy ? 20:43:49 yeah 20:44:46 lukego: youc ould probably do more with one of the unofficial network stacks for linux, though :-) 20:44:57 the zero-copy async. one was nice :D 20:45:21 unofficial network stacks? 20:45:28 Where does SBCL cause signals to be unblocked, etc. when unwinding from within a lisp-side signal handler? interrupt.c "Leave deferrable signals blocked, the handler itself will allow signals again when it sees fit." 20:45:28 anyone here in the web 2.0ish applications business? 20:45:58 I think I'm blind cause I can't find the place where it sees fit. :) 20:48:43 hmm, I need a hashtable with "undo" functionality. This might be well-served by a pure functional hashtable implementation, so I can retain prior states. Anybody have any info on one of those for lisp? 20:49:10 Phoodus: you need persistence, not pure functionalism. 20:50:00 well, afaik pure function hashtable implementations reuse as much of the prior state's table as possible for best efficiency 20:50:17 which means they'd still be relatively cheap to create and GC 20:50:20 -!- Traveler1 [n=traveler@12.15.114.194] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 20:50:33 Phoodus: does this undo work at the level of the (setf gethash) or is it coarser? 20:50:50 bloody hell how do I shuffle keymaps in emacs? I will die of shame if I have to restart 20:50:54 coarser. I'd want to set "checkpoints" in it 20:51:13 and there'd be multiple branches off the change tree 20:51:13 Phoodus: no, you can offer very similar (if not better) performance with side effects. 20:51:38 Then you can easily implement it with a stack of hash-table. (defun checkpoint (uht) (push (uht-stack uht) (make-hash-table))) 20:51:47 You can read baker's paper on shallow binding for functional array, with an example on hash tables at . 20:51:47 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7557b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:52 pjb: that's not good if the hashtable gets big 20:52:11 pkhuong: ok, checking it out 20:52:18 Yes, because you only put the modified/new entries in the topmost hash-table. 20:52:20 just looking for an existing implementation to borrow for now 20:52:21 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7557b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:52:34 pjb: that would basically do a-list style searching then 20:52:39 Phoodus: And it is expected that you don't have too deep stacks, so that gethash is quick enough. 20:52:46 I currently have an a-list 20:53:04 I have deep stacks and potentially big tables 20:53:13 slash_ [n=unknown@79.240.167.1] has joined #lisp 20:53:15 a-list is O(number of elements in). uht is O(number of stacked checkpoints). 20:53:16 well, tables of maybe a few hundred 20:53:43 Still, O(sqrt(n)) vs O(n). 20:54:08 Phoodus: the key is that you don't actually need to copy the old version as much as preserve enough information to rebuild it. 20:54:57 Well, this would do if you haven't a lot of changes between checkpoints. That is if you're closer to undo (setf gethash) than a coarse undo. 20:55:05 I would have said that a few hundred elements in a table was peanuts 20:55:14 and right now, there's lots of reading, so being able to directly access elements would be preferable 20:55:21 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:55:40 the usual way to approach this in backtracking search is either copying or trailing (shallow binding). 20:55:46 Krystof: if you go hundreds of thousands of stack levels deep and have to copy the table every time, you get a cartesian slowdowno n the table size 20:57:40 lukego: they work. for more info you can use getsockopt(fd, IPPROTO_TCP, TCP_INFO, ...) 20:58:05 Phoodus: then indeed, if you have a lot of reading, saving the change elements and restoring could be better. 20:58:26 right, I'm mulling all these options in my semi-awake brain 20:58:46 and looking at all the common usage scenarios 20:59:46 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7557b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:49 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:59:49 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:59:58 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.142.181] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:00:06 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has joined #lisp 21:00:12 There is a lambda function appearing in a profile list I am generating with sb-sprof, is there a way to gain more detailed information of what it actually is? 21:01:04 Guthur, the call graph might have some hints 21:01:20 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 21:01:57 Guthur: you can use sb-int:named-lambda or flet to give a printable name to your lambdas. 21:02:12 lukego: different implementations 21:02:20 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-3-171.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 21:02:28 pkhuong: nice, thanks 21:02:43 felix: nice, looks handy for debugging 21:02:45 There might be some integration in slime with source locations. I don't know. 21:03:01 lukego: there was one that didn't do any copying as long as possible, intead passing a pointer to a buffer and windowing said buffer to implement various layers of network 21:03:02 slime-sprof reports the callers on key-click 21:03:09 do you know a reliable, not so expensive virtual server provider where we could run SBCL for dwim.hu? 21:03:09 Upoontu [n=Ucuntu@201.170.23.50.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:15 adlai, cheers for the suggestion as well 21:03:19 annotated disassembly may also show some hints 21:03:22 Join the premier forum for anti-negro information! 21:03:29 Chimpout.com is the best! 21:03:35 http://www.chimpout.com/forum 21:03:46 All people are welcome except for niggers and nigger-lovers! 21:04:00 actually, looking at my problem, it's really not a backtracking issue; it's a branching state issue 21:04:02 Guthur, np, although pkhuong has the better suggestion 21:04:26 Phoodus: what's the difference? 21:04:27 so what I need is the ability to rapidly take 1 hashtable and generate 100 different variations of that hashtable, each with its own changes to the prior 21:04:50 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:02 pkhuong: I never have to "pop the stack" to get the prior hashtable 21:05:05 Adlai: how far did you come with your slime hacking? 21:05:15 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-168-224.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:25 lukego: AFAIK, TCP_INFO is the only way to find out the state of the connection 21:05:28 Phoodus: if you want different variations at the same time, you will have to stack something... 21:05:31 may we have any issue running SBCL on a virtual server? 21:05:43 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8850.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:55 -!- mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:57 levente_meszaros: yes, with virtual memory 21:05:59 mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 21:06:00 tcr, I added support for ccl::simple-reader-error to swank-backend::call-with-compilation-hooks, but the test case still fails. I haven't had a chance to look further yet. Do you want me to mail you the patch? 21:06:07 pjb: what do you mean? 21:06:07 Phoodus: Branching is branching. Backtracking doesn't just pop back to the parent state either. 21:06:11 Tired of niggers? 21:06:15 Sick of their monkeyshiens? 21:06:15 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 21:06:16 -!- udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:19 levente_meszaros: depends on the provider. Xen had issues with TLS, for example, and non-complete virtualization might have more 21:06:22 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!*@*.170.23.50.dsl.dyn.telnor.net 21:06:23 Phoodus: I mean that gethash won't be O(1). 21:06:27 Adlai: the #+ stuff fails? 21:06:39 p_l: it's a bit of a mystery how not copying bytes from one array to another takes decades to implement 21:06:54 Adlai: the symbol annotation is the important one 21:07:07 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07:14 said the merrily-consing lukego 21:07:16 p_l: linux also has a new "splice" syscall that's a bit like a generalized sendfile(). can proxy between file descriptors without bringing the data into userspace. still seems lame to me. 21:07:20 *Phoodus* needs to instrument the ratio between gethash and new hashtable levels 21:07:20 also test comma not inside backquote; that test case doesn't check for that 21:07:30 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 21:07:30 Phoodus: one difference might be that you have an explicit search tree, while backtracking search explores an implicit tree. 21:07:50 Krystof: nothing wrong with consing :) if I had control of the driver I would just have it DMA the new packets into my freshly consed buffers. 21:07:56 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 21:07:59 lukego: the thing is that the whole stack had to be redone in order to make it actually work. The current one does pass the buffer where possible, but it doesn't try to make it a zero-copy one (Unix world has kind of bad experience with it - look at STREAMS history) 21:08:14 (or maybe it wouldn't work out like that. we'll see one day :) 21:08:40 p_l: sure but this just sound to me like a crappy OS rather than a great innovation 21:08:43 lukego: existing attempts tended to break and work unefficiently 21:09:18 p_l: I saw that freebsd seems to have a zerocopy feature that simply COW maps data into userspace which sounds quite nice, but it had some weird caveats (something about a page-size MTU on the network interface) 21:10:02 freeBSD can be fater than Linux some times. Mostly on networking 21:10:12 faster 21:10:41 A different TCP/IP stack implementation is indeed the reason 21:10:49 p_l: not obvious how much this stuff matters anymore anyway though, in the days when a single core can do 10Gbps, and benchmarks tend to tell you how much idle CPU you have at 1Gbps rather than how many Mbps you can sustain 21:11:00 lukego: it probably has to do with alignement of data in network and getting usable data out to application as a single stream (where it shouldn't have the network headers etc.) and MMU doesn't really help on that kind of work (Mach is a proof - they used MMU for IPC, making the slowest IPC ever) 21:11:05 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:19 tcr, ok, I'll check those when I have a chance. 21:11:50 lukego, It does if you have 10 GB ethernet or infiniband 21:11:58 -!- Upoontu [n=Ucuntu@201.170.23.50.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-lined] 21:12:07 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:12:20 a popular choice in computational clusters 21:13:06 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.73.214] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:24 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-29-175.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:13:44 p_l: true. but the Forth programmer in me would be quite happy to just share all the network buffers between kernel and userspace using some /dev entry and pass pointers. 21:14:18 or not bother with a userspace, for that matter 21:16:05 fyi I found this page pretty impressive, about doing 10Gbps tcp proxying on a regular PC: http://haproxy.1wt.eu/10g.html 21:16:09 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:17:07 but there's a shitload being offloaded onto the network cards these days. I noticed in tcpdump that you see servers sending gigantic TCP packets - like 64K - and the local NIC is actually splitting them up into multiple TCP segments. 21:17:30 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:51 Adlai: I just added two cases to that test 21:18:00 it was confusing at first to see one giant packet go out and a whole flurry of acks come back in response :) 21:18:07 lukego, that is normal 21:18:22 Adlai: That said, these two cases may be too sbcl specific and the test case might have to be adapted. 21:18:37 lukego: the STREAMS-like approaches allow you to setup any kind of chain, whether in userspace or kernel space 21:19:24 some of the performance improvements were gained when you dumped the whoile ethernet frame to userspace and do the processing there straight in server process :D 21:19:24 Adlai: Anyway the cases give you hints, when comparing how it looks like in sbcl 21:20:03 tcr, for my future reference, what do you recommend for reloading slime? 21:20:05 p_l: that is an interesting idea actually. maybe you could just write the network driver in userspace and keep all the data there, without ever having to copy it into the kernel 21:20:24 lukego, too slow 21:20:34 JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:41 p_l: but it still all feels like solving artificial, i.e. unix-invented, problems that are not very fundamental 21:20:55 Adlai: I restart emacs, or often just open another instance on another workspace 21:21:01 right now I'm using a very simple slime-reload function which just forces reloading each slime module, but it doesn't work too well (clobbers my tab completion settings) 21:21:15 ok 21:21:15 tcr: do you have any idea why reloading SLIME would somehow prioritize lisp-mode-map over slime-mode-map? 21:21:55 lukego: No I won't. If there was a well-working M-x slime-reload, I'd use it, but I have no interest in writing it 21:21:58 I just restart 21:22:06 lukego, you can't switch just anytime you like with tcp. You have to take the packets as they come. 21:22:08 s/won't/don't/ 21:22:14 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:22:52 Adlai: I know slime well enough to judge from the changes whether I really have to restart emacs 21:23:05 in most cases you don't have to do that 21:23:19 Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has joined #lisp 21:24:16 if only we all knew slime so well :) 21:24:27 Younder: _one day_ I will really manage to test all this conventional wisdom about kernels and networking. 21:25:00 lukego, set up a test network and see for yourself 21:25:51 Adlai: You can ,restart-inferior-lisp, in most cases it's enough. If it's not, you'll get some invalid-rpc-error (in emacs), or some argument-mismatch error in sldb 21:26:09 or unknown function 21:26:22 lukego, the guys to talk to are at the university of california, san diego 21:26:55 lukego, the internet engeneering task force IETF 21:27:37 Younder: thanks 21:27:49 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:48 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:30:18 wow. with-compilation-unit by itself doesn't squash warnings in CLISP when a function is defined in one file and used in another. 21:31:10 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@46.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:32:01 malsyned: w-c-u is specified pretty liberally 21:32:32 tcr, yeah, but I'm surprised that liberty is taken advantage of. 21:32:35 luis` [n=user@254.57.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:32:48 I guess that's why ASDF, by default, loads every file after compiling it. 21:33:11 uhm no that are orthogonal issues 21:33:56 tcr, why do they do that, then? 21:34:01 lukego: oh, there's some space to innovate. But the actual problems aren't invented by Unix, though a proper unix design (and not the socket() transplant) would make it impossible to avoid copying between kernel and userspace. However, it would be due to speed/extensibility tradeoffs 21:34:34 tcr, shouldn't any compiler changes required by building files be handled by eval-when :compile-toplevel ? 21:34:41 what is the proper unix design and what's wrong with socket()? 21:34:46 p_l: but if I cheat and invoke the Lisp Machine, presumably this issue had no way to exist there, due to lack of user-kernel barrier 21:35:04 linux has zero-copy network I/O, via splice, tee, and vmsplice 21:35:10 madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.68] has joined #lisp 21:35:13 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:35:45 tic: socket() was iirc based on TOPS-20 API (but I hadn't checked), while a Unix-style approach would be to use device files or something like that (look at Plan9's networking stack for example) 21:36:01 foom: the whole path isn't zero-copy tough 21:36:36 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 21:36:59 but at least zero-copy user/kernel, right? 21:37:05 that's probably the largest drawback. 21:37:14 p_l, plan9 seems to do a lot of interesting things. 21:37:16 zero-copy user/kernel is actually a pretty bad idea much of the time 21:37:21 tic: zero-copy between kernel buffers 21:37:29 foom, why? 21:37:52 because the page table tricks (TLB invalidation and page faults) cost more than the copy. 21:38:08 tic: but not zero-copy from device I/O to user API (even if there would be copying to userspace buffers) 21:38:40 foom: it is however possible and easy to simply use offsets while you are in kernel and pass the buffer around 21:39:04 p_l: Doesn't linux do that already? I thought it did 21:39:09 -!- luis` [n=user@254.57.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:39:33 malsyned: because the standard does not specify whether compile-time effects persist across invocations of compile-file 21:39:36 foom: my loose impression, yet to be confirmed, is that nowadays even a copy-happy implementation can expect to push over a gigabit using one modern CPU core. that is kind of cool all in itself, if it's true :) 21:39:52 foom: not exactly. iirc in some places yes, but the proposed design (there was a working example patch) passed internally a buffer and beginning and end pointer 21:39:55 malsyned: and mosts DEF* forms actually only have meaningful effect at load-time 21:40:31 lukego: big part of the patch I'm talking about was the way it allowed you to chain operations as kind of "filters on pipe" 21:40:49 p_l: that sounds kindof like a poor-man's userspace though 21:40:50 tcr, so you pretty much have to load every file after compiling it in order to even count on things like read macros or package definitions persisting? 21:41:26 lukego: iirc another thing missing was full async IO, which was supposedly implemented for all I/O in 2.5, but got pulled out and replaced with file-only POSIX AIO 21:41:42 actually the older haproxy benchmarks (http://haproxy.1wt.eu/10g-20080419.html) suggest that 2008-vintage AMD-based server can put 6.6Gbps without multithreading. cool. 21:42:07 malsyned: Yes. 21:42:42 lukego: multithreading usually doesn't help network performance much ;-) 21:42:52 malsyned: but there's a caveat, too: *READTABLE* and *PACKAGE* are rebound by compile-file, and load, so they have something like file-local bindings. 21:43:37 tcr, do you know if there are any good explorations of these kinds of issues outside of the standard itself? For, say, someone who wanted to get a comprehensive view of what kinds of issues are involved in system construction? 21:43:40 malsyned: so you cannot change the *package* binding of the caller of compile-file 21:43:46 p_l: the same page suggests a ~50% speedup by using both cores (two userspace processes) 21:44:26 malsyned: There are papers about system construction but I don't think they address these topics... they're language topics 21:44:59 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:45:13 lukego: well, for a proxy in such case it would probably help, but using two dispatcher threads and no threaded logic for network would probably be the best in that case... 21:46:24 -!- mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has left #lisp 21:47:44 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.68] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:47:53 madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has joined #lisp 21:48:18 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@154.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:02 anyone here going to the ICCS2010 in Amsterdam? 21:49:51 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 21:50:08 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:50:49 tcr, that's too bad. I've read both of Paul Graham's books, PCL, and Common Lispcraft, all of which claim to teach you how to become good at lisp, and none of them cover these kinds of issues. I'm thinking of creating a tutorial of my own, but I'm still just learning the ins and outs of these things. 21:51:14 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:31 I start to wonder if hypervisors will take over from kernels soon btw. I saw some studies suggesting that Xen's paravirtualized network driver has extremely good performance. makes it tempting to use Xen rather than Linux as a target platform, maybe. 21:53:02 malsyned: one could argue that these are fairly arcane things that rarely bite you. And when they do, it is usually clear what went wrong. 21:53:27 lukego: I don't really understand why you'd want to use Xen as a hypervisor instead of Linux 21:53:27 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:54:39 lukego: it would simply change to another kernel then 21:54:48 lukego: it's unstable as hell 21:55:49 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7557b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:55 prxq, maybe I've been bitten by them more often than usual because I've been poking at them. 21:56:49 foom: I'm thinking of the age-old dream of unified kernel/userspace, made easy by fake hardware. 21:57:45 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:48 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:15 lukego: you still get a kernel, just with different set of privilege separation. nothing new 21:59:18 lukego: ah. So instead of writing an app, you can write an entire OS, with its own fake kernel space. :) 21:59:22 foom: in my case I just have a bit of pent-up frustration that (a) kernel only offers me a limited programming interface and (b) I can't easily slip my code into kernel sapce to bypass that. 21:59:35 You can do (b) pretty easily 21:59:53 loadable modules hooray 22:00:04 sure, but e.g. making sbcl into a loadable module is easier said than done 22:00:44 lukego: actually, you can do b) quite easily, it's just that Unix normally doesn't have a call for that, as it's quite unsecure thing to do on a two-level privilege system 22:00:49 malsyned: maybe. What are you after? 22:00:56 what's the point of unified kernel-/userspace? 22:01:10 lukego: AmigaOS and VMS actually include support for something like that 22:01:46 tic: fewer context switches. 22:01:54 tic: not having to worry about stuff like zero-copy. 22:02:11 tic: well, a big thing these days is containment of untrusted code, by an userspce process. 22:02:14 tic: cutting out annoying layers of complexity and historical baggage. maybe a pipe dream ... 22:02:27 foom: right. but I'm thinking that Xen/kvm does a pretty good job of that too 22:02:33 tic: for example Google's "Native Client" 22:02:44 the first three answers were just about performance. :-) slap in a faster CPU. I want better arguments. 22:02:47 tic: that's a terrible terrible hack for something that should be really easy 22:03:05 lukego: add syscalls to enter/leave kernel mode and support for user process suddenly finding itself in kernel space, and you get VMS/AmigaOS model available :-) 22:03:06 foom, native client? thought that was just ActiveX 22:03:08 prxq, I'm not sure I have a clear goal yet, but I'm sortof circling an understanding of how to grow my code from a single file to a couple of files, to a system complex enough to benefit from asdf, and to understand what is actually happening at each stage. 22:03:21 tic: Native Client is running x86 code without allowing it to do anything bad 22:03:30 tic: the other way to look at it is that it's barely good enough, and that you'll have gratuitous overhead if you try to implement a more flexible system on top of it. 22:03:34 foom, ah yes, it's sandboxed. Hmm... 22:03:34 p_l: do you get the guru meditations too ? ;p 22:03:35 tic: native client is a limited subset of x86 running under a modified qemu 22:03:37 p_l: but it's not that easy. what happens when you try to invoke a system call from inside the kernel, etc. the APIs are not the same. 22:03:40 tic: ActiveX is running native code and verifying that the author told Microsoft that it doesn't do anything bad 22:03:44 pkhuong, I guess. 22:03:47 -!- irc2samus [n=samus@static-200-71-6-99.techtel.com.uy] has quit [] 22:03:47 pkhuong, right. 22:03:52 er, p_l 22:04:05 Isn't that just x86 baggage, though? 22:04:10 lukego: that's what I meant about "support for user processes in kernel space" 22:04:13 pre-VT 22:04:22 No, it's a missing feature in the kernel API 22:04:31 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:04:33 someone somewhere did basically do a port of libc into kernel space once. that's quite an amusing idea, but not that satisfying. oskit was basically that aswell - or really, liek you'd statically link a kernel into your application. 22:04:40 foom, hmm.. what's the feature? 22:04:47 tic: all VT adds is "Yet-Another-Ring-in-Privilege-Separation" 22:05:03 lukego: there's klibc, iirc 22:05:08 tic: userspace-process-specified fine-grained privileges 22:05:22 jmbr__ [n=jmbr@92.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:05:26 tic: there's SELinux, which you can use to do that sort of thing in an admin/root-specified manner 22:05:31 and the current linux bootstrap uses it during early init 22:05:58 but there's no easy way, currently, for a normal unpriv process to give a subprocess fewer privs than it has. 22:06:19 p_l: I somehow don't have a good feeling about building sbcl against klibc and sailing into the sunset though. maybe it would work :) 22:06:35 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 22:06:59 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7557b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:09 malsyned: I would guess that if you just started growing your code, it would all naturally follow. I have some larguish projects and that has never been a problem. I've never used with-compilation-unit. 22:07:22 (for example) 22:07:23 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442074.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:30 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@46.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:08:11 malsyned: part of the problem with lisp is that people actually have to stop worrying :-) 22:08:34 lukego: maybe if it didn't depend on signals. 22:08:58 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:09:02 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:09:17 pkhuong: maybe. 22:10:01 btw does anyone know of a zerocopy version of /dev/net/tun? 22:10:07 that would actually be interesting 22:10:27 prxq, here's an example of the kind of thing I don't find mentioned anywhere that would have been useful to me if I hadn't had to figure it out myself. To load a second file in the same directory as the current one, say (load (make-pathname :name "other-file" :defaults *load-pathname*)) 22:10:42 but I do want to see the data, so I suppose even a SPLICE-like approach would be no use 22:11:40 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-4-171.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:43 my current pipe-dream for end-to-end zerocopy processing of ethernet in Lisp would be to run inside Xen and write a userspace driver towards their network interface. but I haven't researched this, and probably should drop the zerocopy fantasies just because hardware is so freaking fast anyway. 22:11:50 lukego: making a kernel-mode SBCL wouldn't be as easy as that... but not impossible. Actually, you could probably even cut a little of the runtime :D 22:13:18 malsyned: I still wonder what you are trying to do. I 22:13:19 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:55 I've never had to deal with that kind of issue. In fact, I just ignore pathnames altogether. 22:14:53 I don't think many people use load frequently 22:15:02 (directly, that is) 22:15:04 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:06 -!- austinh [n=austinh@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:15:21 p_l: I've never seen any kernel-mode ports that were actually much good :-| 22:15:31 malsyned: if you have more that one file of code, use ASDF 22:15:38 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:49 prxq, if, say, ASDF isn't loaded by default in your lisp, then you have to do something to load it. When you first launch a common lisp, load may be all you have. I'm trying to bootstrap something comfortable from a bare common lisp. 22:16:08 Also, I'm just satisfying curiosities. 22:16:53 lukego: istr that there is a kernel-mode scheme somewhere 22:17:17 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:17:51 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:18:26 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-54-249.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:19:36 malsyned: well, loading one file (asdf) is easy. Isn't it? 22:19:50 prxq: I'd be surprised if it can do simple stuff like manipulate files. I think it's easy enough to link an interpreter into the kernel, but I've never seen one that really does much (probably because it was a just-for-fun project in the first place) 22:20:39 prxq, yeah, it's easy enough. 22:20:58 -!- pjb [n=t@158.Red-79-149-157.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:18 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229252028.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:21:47 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 22:22:59 googling for "kernel mode scheme" doesn't produce anything helpful 22:23:19 googling for "linux kernel scheme" does 22:23:36 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has joined #lisp 22:23:43 top hit http://abstractnonsense.com/schemix/; page contains a link to Movitz :-) 22:24:57 I may stand corrected :) 22:24:58 ...right. "kernel mode scheme interpreter" also yields schemix :-) 22:25:34 lukego: http://lwn.net/Articles/352432/ 22:27:53 pjb [n=t@118.Red-79-149-159.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:08 felix: but what can it do? linking into the kernel and invoking printk is not that cool 22:28:24 does SBCL's statistical profiler require threading and therefore not work in Windows? 22:28:56 I get 'Undefined alien: "pthread_kill"' when trying to require it 22:28:58 prxq: you were googling for wrong thing, but I don't remember the correct name 22:29:04 Schemix is pretty neat if its actually resolving kernel symbols to addresses and poking variables. I'm impressed :) 22:31:06 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-153-250.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:36 Phoodus: it actually required support for signals. But yeah, likely to be somewhat wrong on windows. 22:33:19 *requires (still does) 22:33:40 Joreji_ [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:33:41 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:34:56 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-155-175.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:18 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7557b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:07 is anyone here using lispy? 22:38:42 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:56 *prxq* cringes at pg saying that apple does not understand software 22:40:45 *p_l* might actually agree, depending on arguments. Not interested though in talking about Apple, though 22:42:31 -!- oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:42:53 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-3-171.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:43:03 Apple makes better software than anybody else. How couldn't they understand software? 22:43:28 What he means is that Apple links its software to hardware to ensure revenues. But this is something else. 22:43:52 -!- `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:44:19 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has joined #lisp 22:44:22 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:37 all's I know is that iTunes and Quicktime are in the constant running for worst legitimate software to install on a PC :) 22:50:04 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:48 Yes, but iTunes and QuickTime are wonderful on MacOSX. So perhaps the problem is not the applications but the underlying OS? 22:50:56 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 22:50:57 What OS do you use on these PC again>? 22:51:11 "PC" as in the Apply commercials, meaning Windows 22:51:16 Apple commercials 22:52:39 I can't really imagine them being wonderful on OSX if they behave anything like the PC version 22:53:37 pjb: my experiences with OSX are less than stellar, and I'm not sure if I'd switch Win7 for OSX. About the only reason why I had been thinking about making a Hackintosh out of my laptop (no wai I'm buying a Mac) was Creative Suite. I can't get by without Unix environment and my current hw doesn't have proper virtualisation nor power to run a VM with Windows all the time for work purposes... adding a cost of a Mac on top of ... 22:53:42 Phoodus: you have to have the apple implant to enjoy the software. If you are using a PC, chances are you have a different implant 22:53:43 ... CS4 would be suicide :/ 22:54:33 -!- lithper1 [n=chatzill@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:54:58 CS4 really irritates me in how they don't follow Windows UI stuff either 22:55:18 with their goofball grey roundy border stuff that messes severely with automation 22:55:24 Linux > MacOSX > Microsoft OSes. 22:55:58 But for end users, MacOSX > Linux > Microsoft OSes. 22:56:09 *p_l* actually quite enjoyed NT6.1 ... OSX less so, I guess 22:56:16 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:56:22 "1. Install version 372 of MzScheme. (Don't use the latest version. Versions after 372 made lists immutable.)" ;; *outch* 22:57:02 should affect a functional programmer ;) 22:57:07 should_n't_ 23:00:18 -!- JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:01:38 JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:41 Phoodus: not that iTunes and Quicktime don't break Windows UI conventions horribly, but they're no Adobe Acrobat 23:02:06 I haven't had much problem with acrobat lately, not even in the firefox plugin 23:02:17 though now that you mention it, it's been a serious thorn in the past 23:02:37 Phoodus: maybe they put it on a diet, but it was a horrific resource hog in the past 23:02:43 ramus`_ [n=ramus@99.23.140.86] has joined #lisp 23:02:48 and ALWAYS hung the browser 23:02:51 yes 23:03:16 I've never seen such a widespread program crash so consistently and problematically 23:03:58 also, part of the logic for Apple breaking the UI conventions is they want you on training wheels before you pay the Apple tax 23:04:15 the UI conventions are only half the problem though 23:04:17 so, it's more that they don't care, not that they don't know 23:04:27 why would you use itunes anyway? 23:04:35 instability, the way iTunes works with the library and multiple versions of your songs, etc 23:04:40 prxq: ridiculously large media library on OS X 23:04:49 or OS X 23:04:53 that's about it 23:05:19 any music program that "owns" your song files is simply doing it wrong 23:05:45 ok people, back on topic plz 23:06:08 oh right, we were talking about scheme ;) 23:08:06 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has quit [] 23:08:35 oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:24 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:32 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-155-175.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:12:56 where can I find the docs for using #:+ ? It's fairly ungooglable :-P 23:13:10 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:13 erm, #+: 23:13:37 it's what in *features* 23:13:44 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:13:47 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@46-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:14:05 can I use it for simple compile-time decision making? as in I've got 3 sets of function definitions to decide between 23:14:22 what do you want to discriminate on? 23:14:43 me fiddling the source code to flip between different versions of the functions 23:14:49 during development 23:14:55 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:15:13 uh 23:15:18 one using alists to hold data, the other to do copying of hashtables, etc 23:15:30 its a readmacro 23:15:57 chls #+ 23:16:00 clhs #+ 23:16:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 23:16:19 clhs #- 23:16:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhr.htm 23:16:21 plage [n=user@118.68.196.35] has joined #lisp 23:16:31 -!- `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:35 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node191.html 23:16:39 ok, so that's not really for user use 23:16:46 to define your own simple compile-time flags 23:16:47 huh? 23:16:55 that's exactly what it's for. 23:17:09 its for compile time flagging 23:17:32 #+feature form 23:17:36 how do I create feature tags, do I put them on the cmdline? 23:17:41 your use case sucks a little bit, though. 23:17:48 what command line? 23:17:56 *drewc* looks around 23:18:02 yeah.. still in #lisp.. ok 23:18:07 #+use-impl1 vs #+use-impl2 23:18:12 so you could have like *features* as a global then push onto it and do a contains as the test 23:18:22 seangrove [n=user@c-67-164-97-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:24 clhs *features* 23:18:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_featur.htm 23:18:49 of course, the clhs on "feature expressions" never mentions *features*... 23:18:51 yeah 23:18:59 Phoodus: you can also wirte a macro, like (defmacro foo (&rest args) `(,*impl-thing* ,@args)) or so. 23:19:17 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:19:30 I've got about 4 functions, and 3 implementations of that set of functions 23:19:30 However, I would just put the there implementations in three different files and load the one I want... 23:19:43 I'm not going to split this out just for this 23:19:44 s/there/three/ 23:19:50 bah 23:19:56 Phoodus: the CLHS section on features, however... 23:20:11 so I'm just wondering what the easiest way of flipping between them is, and saw the #+ stuff 23:20:40 what do you mean by 'easy'? 23:20:46 anyway my point is that it can actually be #+expression form 23:20:51 s/compile-time/read-time/ 23:20:51 very little to write, adjust 1 word to select between the 3 23:21:06 removing a symbol from *features*, adding another one and recompiling your code vs loading a file... 23:21:07 Switching from one to the other with #+ will be hard. 23:21:21 huh pjb? 23:21:28 its a conditional 23:21:29 You will have to remove a symbol from *features* (which one?) add a new symbol to *feature*, and load the file anyways. 23:21:34 Better just load the file you want. 23:21:44 I'm editing a large existing file 23:21:48 in a large existing package 23:21:48 i think people focus way too much on how long it takes to write things, at the expense of how long it takes to use them ;) 23:21:53 in a large existing build system 23:22:01 Phoodus: you do know how lisp works yes? 23:22:07 you can redefine functions at any time! 23:22:10 Phoodus: three good reasons why you should do it like I say. 23:22:14 just set a global and have a conditional. 23:22:17 and am looking for a very simple #define-like thing for selecting small blocks of textx 23:22:37 pjb: you mean adjusting asdf files and forcing reloads? 23:22:41 Phoodus: what large existing build system are you working with? 23:22:55 clhs load 23:22:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 23:22:56 asdf + custom loader code 23:23:02 Phoodus: why do you need compile (actually read) time conditionalisation? 23:23:09 #+(= *global* :foo) form #+ (= *global* :bar) form2 #+(= *global* :baz) form3 23:23:20 I jsut want a simple way to select between 3 different ways that stays baked in on compile 23:23:27 basic #define sort of stuff 23:23:28 there ya go. 23:23:31 not anything very complex 23:23:37 JonSmith: It's more complicated than that. 23:23:39 clhs #+ 23:23:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 23:23:47 ok, I think Phoodus has a legitimate goal. The defmacro above should fill that bill. 23:23:52 #+(cl:= cl-user:*global* :foo) at least. 23:23:53 JonSmith: there's so many things wrong with your expression. :) 23:24:06 Yes. #+(cl:eql cl-user:*global* :foo) at least. 23:24:12 whichever 23:24:19 common lisp is full of hairsplitters 23:24:44 Well when we're handed a bunch of bugs in a single pair of parentheses... 23:24:45 i haven't written code in a while 23:24:56 its the general idea 23:25:04 you do a conditional that evaluates to true or false 23:25:04 that much is obvious! 23:25:11 apparently not 23:25:11 no, not quite. 23:25:24 clhs 24.1.2.1 23:25:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/24_aba.htm 23:25:27 JonSmith: still, you will have to change the value of *global* AND re LOAD the file. 23:25:34 Simplier to just LOAD a file. 23:25:51 goal: edit 1 term in a .lisp file, hit ^x^s, ^c^k and run something 23:25:58 and it'll try a different set of functions 23:26:14 Phoodus: why do you want to edit a file? 23:26:19 not bouncing around between multiple files, not editing asdf, not relying on SLIME's view of the current dierectly to load files with (load ...) 23:26:31 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:26:32 because it's easy. It's right there in my SLIME environment 23:26:38 and it's faster than running asetf from the repl 23:26:44 (defun try-variation (variation) (load (pathname-from-variation variation))) 23:26:44 yup 23:26:49 and in all this esoterica foo, I could have jsut finished writing my case statement instead 23:27:01 or you can just load the function and have 3 different versions 23:27:04 last one wins 23:27:05 Phoodus: just put ;; (load "x-with-alists.lisp") \n ;; (load "x-with-hash-table.lisp") \n etc, and then move to the end of the line you want C-x C-e and be done. 23:27:19 what's the current directory of slime? 23:27:27 Phoodus: so why isn't the defmacro I suggested a solution 23:27:27 erm, of the sbcl? 23:27:38 *default-pathname-defaults* 23:27:39 Phoodus: what do you mean by 'current directory'? 23:27:46 clhs *default-pathname-defaults* 23:27:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_defaul.htm 23:28:13 that's not deployable, and shouldn't be part of the source code 23:28:19 why is this so difficult? 23:28:34 and reuiqres multiple files and all that just to toggle the reader or compiler including or excluding a set of defuns? 23:28:34 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 23:28:37 because its common lisp and everyone will give you an opinion about it 23:28:55 Phoodus: what exactly is difficult?? 23:29:02 Files are cheap. There are millions of files on my terabyte disks... 23:29:03 Phoodus: it's not ... you can use #+ if you can read the documentation.. you _asked_ for opinions. 23:29:10 (06:24:06 PM) pjb: Yes. #+(cl:eql cl-user:*global* :foo) 23:29:12 prxq: I just looke dback and saw your defmacro; what is the decider thing 23:29:14 is correct and should work fine 23:29:35 which also means going to the repl and calling setf's 23:29:59 I didn't think that it'd be hard to have tht decision be made in-line with the source code and configurable with a single change of term 23:30:03 as opposed to mine which was all clojurey and wrong 23:30:05 stupid ='s 23:30:06 JonSmith: well, actually no, it is wrong. 23:30:15 Phoodus: the decider is the special variable. It could have a value that can be inlined, or the macro have some logic. 23:30:23 JonSmith: i do not believe that can workl 23:30:24 work 23:30:25 Phoodus: you can have a file with a defparameter. 23:30:25 why is it wrong? 23:30:31 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@79.240.167.1] has quit [Network is unreachable] 23:30:50 JonSmith: the correct form is: #+#.(cl:if (cl:eql cl-user::*global* :foo) '(:and) '(:or)) 23:30:58 JonSmith: because the specification of #+ says so 23:31:00 It is wrong because #+ doesn't expect a lisp expression. 23:31:02 Phoodus: it isn't hard, really. 23:31:12 hmm 23:31:33 prxq: nothing is hard, it's just how much quantity and complexity of code do you want to throw at it :-P 23:31:43 I mean, it's all deterministic code ;0 23:31:54 well it works in gold hill lisp 23:31:56 so idk 23:32:10 *Phoodus* just uses a (case :alist (:alist ...) (:hashtable1 ...) etc) 23:32:24 JonSmith: crappy old CL implementation are not the authorative source on these things ;) 23:32:30 slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1C67B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:06 JonSmith: you actually use gold hill lisp? 23:33:18 yup 23:33:26 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:33:27 On what system does it run? 23:33:32 i do all sorts of neat stuff with it 23:33:34 windows... 23:33:35 Phoodus: did you _read_ the docs for #+ that were give to you? 23:33:38 http://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ 23:33:39 given* 23:34:03 JonSmith: is it faster than clisp? 23:34:08 haha 23:34:11 Phoodus: it seems to be precisly what you are complaining is impossible and difficult.. i don't see what the problem is. 23:34:13 probably not 23:34:18 its about 25 years old 23:34:25 although idk 23:34:30 it does compile to machine code 23:34:33 i'll say competetive 23:34:35 Even sbcl starts to be available on Windows. 23:34:45 although apparently its wrong! 23:34:56 fe[nl]ix: that stinks 23:35:11 indeed 23:35:26 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1C67B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:17 JonSmith: if it's 25 years old old... it's about 9 years older than ANSI.. which means its likely terribly wrong in many places! ;) 23:37:03 unless they are still in business and producing implementations that i don't know about... that'd be neat 23:37:34 they are totally out of business but we licensed it because we still sell software that runs on it 23:37:41 wow 23:38:06 and what... the move to a proper implementation is impossible? 23:38:18 JonSmith: what biz are you in? 23:38:21 or is it a 'better the devil we know' case? 23:38:44 drewc: I presume it is pretty reasonable to use if you have the right manuals 23:39:42 well you have implementation incompatibilities (as made obvious by #+), the fact that we would have to rewrite all of the GUI stuff, the fact that it was written in a way that it looks like fortran... 23:39:57 JonSmith: you mean that the release you're using is 25 years old, or that gold hill started business 25 years ago ? 23:40:04 and that a 'proper implementation' may or may not be compatible with windows 23:40:12 prxq: yeah... i have a client who is running a foxpro database in a dosbox, and the airline industry screen-scrapes from mainframes... but man.. tied to gold hill! 23:40:18 i think our release is circal CLTL 1.5 23:40:45 it doesn't have some of the new CLTL 2 stuff! 23:41:13 so i'd say 1990 or so 23:41:39 drewc: is gold hill bad? I have no idea. 23:42:38 Gold Hill has been inactive for at least 15 years 23:42:50 housel: that doesn't mean it is bad 23:43:00 which is okay because the industry i'm in is behind by about 15 years anyway :-P 23:43:04 unsupported is bad 23:43:09 is actually rock solid to be honest 23:43:12 JonSmith: what industry is that? 23:43:16 we've had occasional thingswehave to patch 23:43:20 nuke... 23:43:20 (if i may ask) 23:43:31 nuke? LOL 23:44:58 idk 23:45:00 it pays the bills 23:45:09 the software works reasonably well 23:45:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:45:33 we aren't exactly doing anything that would require real time or heavy number crunching though 23:46:24 i have to confess that I'm very curious about what you are doing 23:48:10 http://www.shuffleworks.com/ 23:49:46 ah ok. thanks :-) is that on the right a screenshot of the software you work on? 23:50:01 well of course. 23:50:08 yup 23:50:25 you can probably google a flysheet or two off of their website as well 23:51:02 neat! 23:53:10 JonSmith: cool stuff 23:53:39 yeah its a pretty fun job honestly 23:56:58 but yeah, tell your independantly wealthy friends who happen to own nuclear plants :-P 23:57:50 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:58:34 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:58:43 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp