00:00:04 does wow64 mandate NoExecute? 00:02:15 n2kra: no, but AMD64 includes it by default, and All available win64 versions for amd64 use DEP with bit-61 00:03:16 You know, win64 sbcl would probably be fairly straightforward, provided that you do it the ccl way instead of the sbcl/win32 way. Drawback, though, is that you lose unwind interop at the very least. 00:03:53 -!- Guest83773 [n=user@72.14.228.137] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:27 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:40 konr [n=user@189.96.74.227] has joined #lisp 00:06:00 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 00:07:20 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.74.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:20 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 00:09:21 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.46.66] has joined #lisp 00:11:52 nyef: is the unwind interop the main difference? 00:12:01 (between CCL and SBCL) 00:12:23 Adlai: right, that's "kreuter reported, in an email, ... ". 00:13:10 nyef: speaking as someone who doesn't use windows at all but would like it if people stopped complaining about how SBCL doesn't work right on it...it seems like unwind interop is something that could be dispensed with. :) 00:14:31 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:14:38 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:15:29 *p_l* personally just wants to know how much it changes things and how much SEH differs from VMS exception system 00:16:42 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:52 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:19:07 isomer`` [n=isomer@72-254-147-39.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:09 are there any other huge applications which have an embedded lisp derivative except autocad?, 00:21:17 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:20 minion, tell kenanb about emacs 00:21:21 kenanb: have a look at emacs: Emacs is the One True Editor. http://www.cliki.net/emacs 00:21:26 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA97B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 00:21:56 :) yes, except that, too. i mean except the ones probably every lisper knows 00:22:23 -!- astalla [n=astalla@net-93-149-132-134.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 00:22:52 minion, tell kenanb about nyquist 00:22:54 kenanb: please look at nyquist: Nyquist is a sound synthesis and Music composition language, based on XLisp. http://www.cliki.net/nyquist 00:23:33 in audacity 00:23:37 right 00:23:45 kenanb: there was also some big typesetting app that used Lisp, but I don't recall the name. Mirai *might* add Lisp-based extensions, I think (iirc it was developed with lisp), there are also many small, internal Lisp-like/lisp-inspired/internal Scheme languagesin various apps, not necessarily available for users 00:23:54 jgriffin [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-hacnuwluxpgabjko] has joined #lisp 00:24:08 autodesk tried so hard to remove lisp and spread the use of vb as the autocad developer language, but it didn't work, seems like people who use any lisp stick to it somehow :) 00:24:35 many GNU apps allow extension through Guile, which is "a portable, embeddable Scheme implementation written in C" 00:25:10 kenanb: there's also a lisp-like replacement for AppleScript, called afaik Nu 00:25:35 they tried to replace lisp with vb? 00:25:37 why? 00:25:50 ah, it's not replacement for applescript, it's a full-featured language - I messed this one :-) 00:25:52 aren't there also Firefox extensions built with ECL? 00:26:35 moocow: AutoLISP is arcane and archaic lisp dialect. Howevfer, People apparently preferred to use it and the vast amount of code written in it, than switch to VB 00:26:37 p_l: yes, mirai directly uses allegro cl, and it seems to be among the best 3d subdivision modeling tools back then, i guess the licence policy of franz was the cause behind mirai's death :\ 00:26:38 an X WM ? sawfish ? 00:26:56 huh, interesting 00:27:02 thx for the info 00:27:24 kenanb: i used mirai infact 00:27:28 is that really true? 00:28:09 does any implementation come to mind for which (constantp '(let ((a '(a b c))) (length a))) returns T ? 00:28:09 i always wondered why they folded, they had a rather large fanboy group that could of resulted in sales and i never understood why they never made it 00:28:09 moocow: i know it seems strange, probably because they thought lisp is dead :) 00:28:12 konr [n=user@189.96.124.30] has joined #lisp 00:28:14 actually, AutoCAD tried to move to Windows' Scripting Framework (not actual name - I can't recall the proper one), so you can program it with any language that can access it 00:28:36 kenanb: what were the issues around franz licencing? 00:30:12 length is hard to constify because it doesn't necessarily terminate. 00:30:29 -!- Buccia`26C3 is now known as Bucciarati 00:30:31 p_l: why can't you recall it? 00:30:58 kenanb: it folded long ago, and I read about it long ago ;-) 00:31:40 (the typesetting program - the scripting framework was WSH or something different, depending on version of it as well as version of OS, classic corporate name changing) 00:32:10 -!- luis` [n=user@240.56.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:32:22 is digitool dead? MCL was sourced, but what about its CLIM? 00:33:00 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:33:23 moocow: i am not sure that i can tell their licence policy very well since i don't have the required terminology :D but i think you can easily find it in franz site, but as a summary, afaik allegro cl needs an additional licence fee per costumer licence sold, or something like that 00:33:58 kenanb: aha, thats all i was curious about 00:33:59 damn 00:34:10 that was a sweet piece of software 00:34:16 if only izware were to open source it 00:34:18 :) 00:34:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 00:36:26 they have an official website, however, i wonder if they still develop anything at all 00:37:09 not really. what happened, from what i understand was, the japanese company went under, everyone got fired and the original coder bought the rights to the code back 00:37:19 he started up izware but has done jack with it and the code 00:37:44 moocow: nichimen, yes. 00:38:30 oh right 00:39:47 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:59 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 00:41:03 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:47 kroger [n=user@64.134.226.33] has joined #lisp 00:41:58 i dont think license issues with franz were the problem, i seem to recall they had problems updating it for winxp 00:42:00 lisp has a strange effect on both software and its users i think, people who once used genera and lispmachines always talk about its advanced features and how proper and beautiful it was, that's somehow understandable since they are lisp hackers and their love for lisp may make them say that, but also cg proffessionals who once used mirai are talking about how beatiful it was and how the recent most advanced modeling tools can't catch up with some of its featur 00:42:29 if the license was an issue i doubt they would use allegro in the first place 00:42:50 -!- kroger [n=user@64.134.226.33] has left #lisp 00:42:52 they released on nt4 00:42:57 the died before 2000 was released 00:42:57 xristos: some people don't realize it's an issue until too late. 00:43:47 (and some don't realize it's an issue until after deployment, but port their software to run on a different impl instead) 00:44:14 xristos: licence is not an issue for them, it was an issue for costumers, since it doubled the price of application 00:45:07 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@43-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:46:31 it was an expensive app if i remember 00:46:36 7.5 k or something at the time 00:46:39 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442074.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:46:46 moocow: that's true 00:47:05 i don't remember if maya and si were dropping to 3k yet at that time or if they were still in the 12k to 18k price range 00:47:51 yeah, we were trying to get a franz license for cloud computing, but they wouldn't budge on their fixed per-machine fee 00:48:10 kroger [n=user@64.134.226.33] has joined #lisp 00:48:11 so, we're using sbcl :-P 00:48:51 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:31 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:52:17 *p_l* decided to use SBCL/CCL/ECL combination because of that (might add clisp if I get a platform where ECL won't work... I doubt it) 00:53:33 -!- Regenschein [n=ford@gssn-4d007c39.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:53:48 Regenschein [n=ford@gssn-4d007ece.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:36 the other big guys of cad like intellicad do have lisp derivative scripting languages, too, probably because most of their potential customers are natural lisp developers thanks to autocad :D 00:56:01 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:56:31 -!- n2kra [n=n2kra@pool-173-63-246-135.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:56:42 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:58:02 -!- Regenschein [n=ford@gssn-4d007ece.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:01:49 that is really one of the most powerful ways of keeping a language in widespread use, making it the developer tool of big applications, but especially architectural designers are moving to BIM applications from CAD, like revit, archicad etc. and the engineers seem to move to software like solidworks, so the era of autolisp may be ending soon, the old lisp routines will probably start breaking in newer versions of autocad, and that may let autodesk burn the brid 01:03:18 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:03:21 by the sounds of it they have been trying to for along time 01:04:19 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:05:07 in the engineering field i've yet to encounter any lisp at all, actually. especially with complete sellable applications. but who cares? as long as there are implementations and the shit works, at least we can use it. :) 01:08:23 moocow: i don't know if they care about it anymore, in fact i wouldn't even use autocad if it didn't have autolisp, the whole application is like a lisp implementation ide, you close all the toolbars, and there you have some kind of an emacs+slime with a autolisp repl, a menu and a 3d drawing buffer instead of a slime mode editor buffer :) 01:08:55 oh really? 01:09:03 i used autocad in a course in the mid 90's 01:09:11 i thought they rewrote it all in c++? 01:09:15 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:09:18 moocow: not "really" really, but nearly :) 01:09:36 huh 01:09:37 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 01:09:59 so there is a bunch of lisp there still? not just for scripting via some lisp script interface to host app? 01:10:17 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:10:26 i think some things were rewritten in C++, but they still use some lisp within the app. (that is the rumour at least, afaik) 01:10:40 moocow: you can use the regular command window at the bottom of autocad screen as a repl for autolisp, it allows giving autolisp commands with the whole paranthesised syntax from command window 01:11:07 never learned about that 01:11:07 neat! 01:11:38 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:13:11 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@72-254-147-39.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:13:38 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:41 there was also an arx library backend for corman lisp but it is old enough to not rely on and i don't really know its situation for the time it was written (i guess it dates back to 2001 or 2002) 01:14:52 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 01:14:56 -!- plage [n=user@203.113.164.206] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:15:27 Lucent wrote a PBX in Common Lisp 01:15:46 and Motorola monitors the status of their Fab with Scheme 01:16:17 and isn't that one electrical design app written in lisp? 01:16:21 starting with a C... 01:17:38 lucent wrote a pbx in cl? 01:17:46 thats cool! 01:18:26 it's the prototype story, right? it wasnt put into production as i understood it. :( 01:18:40 moocow: iirc there was more Inferno than Lisp used by Lucent 01:18:54 dave bakhash worked on a voice system in CL 01:18:58 *Xach* tries to remember the name of it 01:19:11 joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 01:19:38 Xach: the Portius group or something like that i think. 01:20:20 hypno: ah yes 01:20:48 hypno: it was put into production 01:20:59 LMI was sort-of involved in a canadian translation scandal! 01:21:01 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-48-114.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:21:04 hypno: the C++ version never got the features or the speed of the lisp version 01:21:05 i wrote an tail recursive factorial application in common lisp, works on sbcl 1.0.29, new versions aren't tested, but hopefully there will be no errors compiling, also i have an "Hello world!" application which i an thinking to open source, but not sure, except that, i am a newbie 01:21:43 rahul: ah, very cool. :) 01:21:59 hypno: it's end-of-lifed by now, tho 01:22:27 so it's almost been in production for some 10 years or thereabouts? 01:23:59 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:24:02 so wait, this lisp system was developed within the last decade? 01:24:09 that would still be cool regardless 01:25:23 hypno: I think it only lasted 3 or 4 years 01:25:48 it was in use around 2000 01:25:55 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:26:24 i see. that is certainly better than a prototype only at least. good (old) news. 01:26:47 and then there's space ship one 01:27:50 well its so hard to get anyone to use different technology when the old standby is there 01:28:07 its just cool to hear something like this winning as a platform 01:28:44 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:30:14 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 01:30:29 not counting ITA, i would guess Intel and Amd is still heavy Lisp users through ACL2. 01:31:57 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:32:35 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:35:26 hypno: yep 01:36:24 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-56-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:47 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-48-114.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:09 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:38 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:35 btw, who was the genius who put BMP slides on sbcl10 website?? 01:42:32 p_l: they seem to be png's 01:42:43 :) 01:42:56 some of them are bmps with png extension 01:43:04 I noticed it too 01:44:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has quit [] 01:46:51 i wonder, every language's interface to the potential users has an aim to be somehow fancy, aesthetic, but this is not the fact about common lisp, is this because our developers don't care about being used or they don't think aesthetics doesn't have effect on being used. in fact i don't care about it, i just know the language is well, but a better interface would be nice 01:47:17 kenanb what about SLIME? 01:47:33 first two are bmp with png extension. Noticed it because of characteristic peculiarity of BMP, which is upside-down coordinates 01:47:41 it's even got slime-fancy 01:48:09 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-172.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:13 kenanb: wth is a language's "interface?" 01:48:26 soupdragon: ups, i wasn't trying to talk about the ide, sorry, i was talking about web interfaces of cl projects 01:48:35 kenanb: you mean webpages? 01:48:36 slime is great but slime logo sucks 01:48:39 okay, I don't know about web interfaces 01:48:41 ask the maintainers of the webpages. 01:48:43 Ralith: yes 01:48:46 p_l: I noticed it because it's a 2mb for few lines of bitmapped text 01:48:49 is that some new thing 01:48:57 $YOUR_WEBPAGE is not representative of CL. 01:49:38 adeht: that too, but in the beginning I thought it might be just my connection being under heavy load (which it is) 01:50:56 kenanb what is it? to someone who doesn't know 01:51:21 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8A19.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:51:42 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:51:44 -!- kroger [n=user@64.134.226.33] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:11 borism [n=boris@213-35-234-124-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 01:52:25 http://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/images2/slime-small.png 01:53:51 kenanb: i think the connection between CL and graphical aesthetic is loose and vague: an interface designer should take care of these things, not a programmer, regardless of language. if the current stuff (be it web or standalone) look barebone and boring to some, it's because it's by and for programmers, not general consumption. 01:54:46 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.52] has joined #lisp 01:55:20 hypno: there are no interface designers any more 01:55:24 just graphic artists 01:55:38 they make a graphic and pretend like it's a user interface 01:56:03 benny [n=benny@i577A87C6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 01:56:07 and then they write a flash app to call a web app server to display this graphic to the user 01:56:23 heh. 01:57:07 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.241.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:58:10 i don't want to critisize developers and web masters about the whole design since it is good to have simple webpages that just do what it should do, but there are so many basic problems that even a person who never designed anything visual can realize, take a look at http://common-lisp.net/ , i guess anyone can tell that it would be better to have the "made with lisp" logo and the upper frame's colors were match with each other. and slime logo, it is both very 01:58:56 kenanb: huh? 01:59:05 what's not matching about the colors? 01:59:34 do you have a defective browser...? 02:01:05 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9796.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:49 rahul: does it match on yours? 02:02:10 rahul: then yes, maybe it's the browser 02:03:03 well, sure, and the ALU home page isn't exactly an aesthetics master peace either. i guess the reason is simply that very few of us approciate the interface design part of it all. we are classical people as Pirsig would say - we see the lines and schematics and the code and that kind of beauty. the rest is just boring. 02:03:40 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:04:49 *p_l* would like a fancy-looking GUI package. If only to get people salivating at the app ;-) 02:06:30 hypno: but i think a fractal graphic has the whole beauty that you consider as beauty, it is for example the visual representation of that kind of beaty, so some other things except the code itself can be beautiful 02:08:38 an l-system is an l-system, you can write it as a grammar of axioms and productions, or you can see it on a plant, or you can draw it on a paper, it is what it is, beauty is not stuck to some kind of interpretation 02:10:00 kenanb: oh, sure. i agree with your observation in general. most lisp apps looks old and slightly weird. they may be powerful and great, but that is of little concern to some. it's a big difference compared to the ruby folks, say. 02:11:44 so stick a picture of a fractal on the side of the page and you're all set 02:12:14 or if you want to do something useful, write a nice look and feel for mcclim 02:12:35 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 02:12:38 plage [n=user@117.3.4.60] has joined #lisp 02:13:10 rahul: :D i know that any lisper including you is clever enough to know that was not the point :) 02:13:13 duncant [n=duncant@c-71-206-170-158.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:27 rahul: in fact i may do that, who is the developer of mcclim 02:16:16 rahul: also i may design a new logo for slime if they would like to have one. i love lisp but i am not in a position to write libs that people can avail since i am a newbie, but i can design logos and toolbar items etc. that is my job :) 02:17:07 prxq_ [n=mommer@e179221173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:17:12 kenanb: There is not a single developer of McCLIM, but I am willing to answer any questions you might have. 02:18:29 here's a question: does mcclim have a dvcs repo mirror? 02:19:33 Not that I'm aware of. 02:19:36 -!- duncant [n=duncant@c-71-206-170-158.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:20:07 <_deepfire> How do you deal with occasional "Argh! error within --disable-debugger error handling 02:20:14 <_deepfire> " ? 02:20:48 plage: and my question is, what would mcclim developers expect from a designer who wants to help with the interface? 02:21:40 plage: ah, here: http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/mcclim.git 02:21:46 kenanb: That he or she would come here regularly and bounced ideas and code on #lisp members. 02:22:00 adeht: Ah, nice~! 02:23:43 kenanb: if you have an itch about the slime logo, you can design one yourself and propose it on the slime-devel list.. 02:23:48 kenanb: For instance, there is a "pixie" look, but the design could be better, like having the pane-realization functions call a more general instantiation function that can specialize on a look-and-feel object. 02:23:59 and also, since mcclim uses some gui widget backends, may i design the graphical interface items considering some widget toolkits interface objects requirements or am i able to design things independently (btw, sorry for the terminology and language mistakes) 02:25:03 kenanb: I would prefer a McCLIM-specific set of gadgets and panes (there is such a set) but with semantics and look-and-feel separated. 02:25:16 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.172.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:25:27 kenanb: Then you would be free to have your own graphics design. 02:26:26 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.172.250] has joined #lisp 02:27:39 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:43 c|mell [n=cmell@113.53.56.49] has joined #lisp 02:27:58 -!- jgriffin [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-hacnuwluxpgabjko] has quit ["Page closed"] 02:30:19 joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:30 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051111201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:33:18 i think i should search the x window, window managers, and gui toolkit behavior more deeply to understand a bit more about it, like which parts of the interface gui, themes and window manager effects seperately and how they effect it etc. but i will gladly do that 02:36:25 perilous undertaking 02:37:36 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:40:18 -!- plage [n=user@117.3.4.60] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:42:30 plage [n=user@117.3.4.60] has joined #lisp 02:42:52 kenanb: Great! But like I said, it is probably best to start with a McCLIM specific set of gadgets, rather than reusing one from the underlying toolkit. Then you can design your own gadgets just by using basic drawing primitives. As I said, we already have such a portable set of gadgets, but it is not parameterized by any look-and-feel object. 02:42:53 02:44:38 kenanb: you don't use any specific GUI library to draw in McCLIM 02:44:43 well in CLIM in general 02:44:49 the point is that EVERYTHING is abstracted over 02:44:59 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:45:07 and as for the slime logo, i would say it is a very common trap for a person who doesn't interested in design to think that the combination of ComicSans-like font and some image manipulation program filters is the key to a nice logo, but it is not, comic sans is considered boring, doesn't tell much about the subject of logo and has very bad proportions (we may ask it to steve jobs ;) ) and filters are meaningless in many cases, in fact a logo consisting of an o 02:47:04 rahul: it's perfect it that is so.i didn't know the level of abstraction so i thought that i will eventually have to rely on the backend dependencies. 02:47:22 I think anyone would have a hard time convincing someone that the slime logo is good 02:47:35 mjsor [n=mjsor@67-42-51-15.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:44 but slime itself is pretty awesome 02:47:46 kenanb: if you don't like it, make an alternative :P 02:47:57 Guthur: i agree 02:48:47 Ralith: if you mean the slime logo, i will do that, if you mean the java logo, i am too young to die 02:48:57 kenanb: if you need something specific to a backend, then you're not implementing the widget set yourself :) 02:49:34 kenanb: okay, so stop criticising and do it :P 02:49:49 oh 02:50:05 kenanb: If you have more questions later, I come here regularly, but right now I am going out for a walk. 02:50:10 -!- plage [n=user@117.3.4.60] has left #lisp 02:50:28 plage: I'm trying to decide whether it's better to stick push-buttons in the middle of my presentations for manipiulating them or to present commands 02:50:32 damn 02:50:33 heh 02:51:03 Ralith: criticising is the most creative process of design :) doing it is half hour of work if you know what to do 02:52:23 kenanb: I look forward to seeing your completed logo when I get back from dinner, then. 02:52:50 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:53:00 Ralith: where are you guys living, it is 5 in the morning here:D 02:53:27 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:53:47 kenanb don't worry my timezone isn't too far behind yours hehe 02:54:16 Ralith: and also, i haven't stopped criticizing yet, so you shouldn't start the timer :) 02:54:37 don't worry he never stops criticising either 02:56:05 i live in Istanbul, everyone who like kebab and more kebab are welcomed to my timezone :D 02:56:27 And turkish coffee. 02:56:30 Oh, Constantinople. 02:57:17 dandersen: nope, Istanbul, since 1453 ;) 02:57:26 Byzantium maybe 02:57:45 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:04 kenanb: Call it what you want =D 02:58:39 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:59:09 Zhivago: it is good to know that people appreciate our coffee, may i write a lisp dialect working on jvm called "turkish coffee" :p 02:59:31 there already is a Lisp on Java 02:59:49 Guthur: yes, more than one 02:59:56 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:00:05 hehe suppose another wont hurt 03:00:24 what is the appeal of using the jvm? 03:00:35 being able to blame someone else for the slowness? 03:01:12 in my country there are not too many lispers, one i know of is a clever academic in Bilgi University, and there is the guys who develop Core Server, and i guess that's all ;\ 03:01:13 being able to outsource coding 03:02:37 good and bad coders exist for every language. also JVM-based languages need not be in java or really have much of anything to do with java. 03:02:44 What do you think of Visual Programming Languages? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language) Do you think that they may be used to increase productivity? 03:03:15 or better yet - are they currently being used for that? 03:03:18 mle: there should be some pros since these dialects are popular, and there should be cons since there are more which don't use jvm 03:04:44 I have... a longer rant about various things, but yeah, that won't help discuss lisp, so I relent. Sorry. 03:05:00 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:39 I think that linear text is pretty visual. 03:06:37 I'm inclined to think that html is pretty much the right way to do almost all UI these days. 03:07:18 for casual usage, maybe 03:08:22 html+css, perhaps. Though that doesn't address specification of more complex widgets 03:08:41 html+css+javascript 03:09:00 I'm not saying that trio is ideal, but the approach is pretty good. 03:09:05 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:22 The dom tree, plus styling, plus procedures. 03:09:23 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:56 i initial thought you said visual programming is the way to do all UI these days 03:10:32 No. I think it is seductive and corrupting. 03:10:47 really why is it corrupting? 03:10:55 but you are probably a programmer not a UI designer 03:11:11 what about things like interface builder where you drag the parts onto the window and connect them up 03:11:13 visual programming is confusing as hell 03:11:20 soupdragon: it's a lie 03:11:22 In that it conflates the stylistic elements with the structural elements. 03:11:23 for GUI? 03:11:29 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@67-42-51-15.eugn.qwest.net] has quit [] 03:11:41 either a UI is correct or it looks a specific way 03:11:43 visual programming works fine for a lot of stuff, but it is useful for it to have a 1:1 correspondence with a textual representation. 03:11:50 UIs should not be painted 03:11:51 Or, at least, I haven't seen a visual system which helps to keep those separate. 03:11:54 they should be designed 03:12:09 painting is design. 03:12:15 rahul: Well, in flash, painting isn't a sin. 03:12:17 mle: not at all 03:12:28 Zhivago: except that user interface is not paint 03:12:33 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-172.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:12:38 In flash, it pretty much is. 03:12:41 visual design is not done with numbers and letters 03:12:43 real UIs _move_ and _react_ 03:12:52 Yeah, and flash paint reacts and moves. 03:12:54 Guthur: are you talking about programming or design? 03:13:09 more design 03:13:12 Zhivago: someone who paints won't think about it 03:13:15 sounds like we're mostly just disagreeing about artistic use of verbs. 03:13:26 they will just paint something and expect that to show up and somehow do something 03:13:37 the GUI portion of an application 03:13:44 rahul: you can find bad programmers and designers with any abstraction system. 03:13:45 rahul: Well, in my experience arty types seem to do nicely with flash. 03:13:50 don't blame the abstraction. 03:13:57 Zhivago: and they seem to make bad user interfaces 03:14:01 rahul: Even with horrible scripting underneath. 03:14:05 mle: the abstraction is the wrong thing 03:14:09 Well, that's another issue. 03:14:21 mle: it's like using procedural programming to create an expert system 03:14:28 good developers can make a very fluidly interactive interface with any abstraction. 03:14:36 i wonder, wouldn't it be nice to have a small extension to slime, which can hide and show the contents between parenthesis, especially for functional programming style it would be an efficient way to work on lisp code. for example minimizing a defun expression by clicking on it causing it to look like (defun foo (a b) ...) and clicking it again to show the contents of it again, that would be a more suitable way to walk through the code especially while making c 03:14:38 mle: exactly 03:14:40 bad developers can't. It's a basic design rule; you can't fix Stupid. 03:14:58 mle: rendering the crutch of graphically desiging GUIs useless 03:15:04 kenanb sounds fun, why not just code it up 03:15:21 kenanb: that's outline-mode 03:15:24 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:29 kenanb: and why do you think you need it? 03:15:32 rahul: I won't begrudge some hypothetical designer their choice of tools, but yeah, I don't generally like that approach either. 03:15:47 user interface is not about graphics 03:15:51 it's about behaviors 03:15:58 behaviors can be expressed graphically 03:16:11 every good UI specification is a list of things that they want to allow the user to do 03:16:13 but you have to express semantics, not just final static visual appearance 03:16:23 workflows, not graphical "mockups" 03:16:27 even an outline is a graphical expression 03:16:43 mle: then even lisp code is a graphical expression 03:16:51 sure is. 03:17:02 War and Peace is graphical because it is text represented graphically... 03:17:03 so we're agreeing by arguing in different directions, it sounds like. 03:17:06 btw, regarding styling - WPF allows you to style everything CSS-sway, with external file defining look&feel (and possibly layout, depending on how you wrote your app) 03:17:22 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f722b70.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:07 rahul: so there is a mode like that :) great. i just for examples sometimes want to skim over some code, probably someone elses code and i need to see the structure of it in a more indexed way to understand the whole thing, i sometimes even try to draw it on a paper, that helps me 03:18:24 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.179] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:19:25 kenanb: that's what SLIME is for 03:19:40 kenanb (package-name: will give you a list of available functions 03:19:42 and looking at code won't give you what you really want 03:19:56 there is other things as well i'm not that knowledgeable about slime though 03:20:02 only proper documentation will give you a good overview of the way an API behaves 03:20:11 you can inspect classes 03:20:15 use who-calls 03:20:52 rahul: to be fair there is many CL libs that have next to no documentation 03:20:55 but scrolling through code will never get you a good idea 03:21:04 Guthur: stop using kennyware :P 03:21:24 although examples are sometimes the best documentation 03:22:08 poor kenny 03:22:44 rahul: ahhah, somehow when something like "no documentation" is spelled kenny's face shows up in everyminds mind :D 03:24:01 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@113.53.56.49] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:24:21 oh which reminds me is there any autodoc tool for lisp 03:24:28 of some form or other 03:25:04 Guthur: i remember reading about one somewhere, i'll take a look 03:25:33 Guthur: what do you mean "autodoc"? 03:25:34 Guthur: what's autodoc for you? 03:25:46 in CL, "autodoc" is the double quote char 03:25:48 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/slime_002dautodoc_002dmode.html 03:26:38 i suppose one that would extract the function name and parameter list and any document string 03:26:43 Guthur: slime seems to have one, but probably different from what you had in mind 03:26:43 it's for displaying arglists in the minibuffer 03:27:10 can classes/structs as well 03:27:12 and* 03:27:23 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 03:27:26 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442074.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 03:27:58 a bit like doxygen 03:28:00 Guthur: if you mean something to extract a reference doc from source, there are several projects 03:28:14 Guthur: e.g., atdoc 03:28:42 thanks adeht 03:30:41 and defdoc.umentation 03:30:42 :P 03:31:28 I still need to figure out how to determine what is being documented when I come across an invocation of defdoc.umentation 03:31:32 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72fe14.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:31:53 otherwise I'll have to rely on grovelling the code :\ 03:32:16 maybe we should just take the examples route hehe 03:32:41 It means one can just code instead of writing up functions 03:34:37 btw, anyone take a look at the draft chapters of Nick Levine's lisp book from O'Reilly? 03:35:07 i checked out the threading chapter 03:35:29 that was about it, but it was pretty good 03:36:41 oh wait that might be a different thing 03:37:38 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d81890f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:52 i hope they ship it with a live cd linux distro that has the implementations already installed, because he uses a different cl implementation on each chapter :) 03:46:39 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:16 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:48:15 any particular reason he does that? 03:48:54 also it includes clojure, so it is generally a lisp book, not a common lisp book, that is also interesting, maybe O'Reilly requested the clojure part, i don't know. 03:49:13 Does he use implementation specific features in each chapter? 03:49:47 Zhivago, yep. 03:49:52 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d815f6f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:49:56 or at least, he does in the chapters on Allegro CL. 03:50:54 Zhivago: he uses more than implementation specific features, he also uses clojure :D 03:51:43 I'm glad he does -- clojure seems one of the best things to happen to the lisp family these days. 03:51:50 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:52:14 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:55 umm so thats why changing a structure always means a headache 03:53:10 http://lisp-book.org/contents/ch20.html#data 03:53:26 Structures lack a redefinition protocol. :) 03:53:36 their accessors are inline 03:53:59 I think you mean "may be inlined". 03:54:12 ya there was meant to be a d 03:54:29 The "may be" is the important part. 03:54:30 well he says are inlined 03:54:31 CLOS slot-value access can be inlined in SBCL 03:54:33 no maybe 03:54:40 yes maybe 03:54:45 nothing has to be inlined 03:54:46 fair enough 03:54:58 i didn't even know about the maybe 03:55:12 the only way to force any kind of inlinesque behavior is to write a macro and compile a funciton that uses it 03:56:26 rahul: so if the behavior on structure accessors is implementation spesific, the statement in the book is false, right? 03:56:44 Perhaps he is talking about a particular implementation ... 03:57:11 the tip at the top probably excuses any implementation differences 03:57:37 Zhivago: if so, i think he should mention that spesifically. 03:58:00 kenanb he says read the implementations own documentation first 03:58:04 Well, there was something about each chapter being about a different implementations ... 03:58:51 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:58:59 is there any way to get weak hashtables on ECL? 03:59:34 a bit of googling shows that it is possible to get weak references in a C program using the Boehm GC, so it seems theoretically possible to have weak datastructures in ECL. 04:00:13 Guthur: that's why i like PCL, Seibel is very clear on the implementation spesific behavior. 04:00:23 ECL has weak reference support. 04:00:46 Zhivago, is it documented anywhere? I couldn't find it in the manual when I checked about a week ago. 04:00:59 well I only looked for about a minute an learnt something, though it is a 'maybe' 04:01:20 an/and 04:01:21 I think he's mostly trying to warn you about things implementations may do to make your life difficult 04:01:30 You probably need to look in the latest CVS source. 04:01:58 yech, is there a git/darcs mirror? 04:02:07 ah, yes, there is. 04:02:13 s/is/are/ 04:10:58 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:19:40 -!- teiresias [n=user@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:21:25 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-229-231.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:27 verdammelt [n=user@c-24-61-10-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:41 -!- verdammelt [n=user@c-24-61-10-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:23:45 *_deepfire* ponders module set bisection in the buildbot 04:23:57 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 04:24:51 gah, ECL only has weak pointers. oh well. 04:25:08 <_deepfire> I have weird iolib build failures within the complete buildbot runs, but separate clean-image builds are fine. 04:25:08 Zhivago, thanks for pointing it out. 04:25:38 um 04:25:44 Adlai: weak pointers are all you need 04:25:50 no they're not. 04:25:55 . . . 04:26:18 you can't implement a weak mapping using only weak pointers 04:26:41 as long as the equality predicates pass through the weak pointer structure 04:26:45 <_deepfire> I also have apparent side-effects making other modules fail as well, so I guess it's good time for bisection. 04:26:48 or rather, I don't know of any way that it's possible. if it is, please let me know... 04:26:57 Adlai: um. just. do. it. 04:27:02 does "slime" has any other language meaning except the sticky matter that is used in tires? and i hope the name slime is not also a referance to that matter :p 04:27:11 Adlai: make the thing you want weak weak 04:27:31 Adlai: although weak keys may make a mess of the hashtable 04:27:41 <_deepfire> rahul, there's a catch: not all lisps allow for custom hash-table tests 04:27:50 _deepfire: that doesn't matter 04:27:55 rahul, I think you're simplifying things a bit... imagine a key-weak hashtable where the values reference the keys 04:28:05 _deepfire: the implementation's test should recurse into the weak pointer 04:28:15 the keys will never get GCed, because there will always be a reference to them through the value 04:28:24 you need the GC to be aware of weak mappings 04:28:55 Adlai: so weak pointers don't make that any worse 04:28:56 <_deepfire> rahul, well, that'd force an additional indirection, but I see, yes 04:29:17 _deepfire: in the equality predicate yeah 04:29:26 _deepfire: but there are already a dozen indirections... 04:29:32 rahul, they don't help you implement weak mappings. 04:29:47 Adlai: they don't make weak mappings any worse either 04:30:28 they make weak mappings behave the same as normal "strong" mappings in certain circumstances, making them unusable as weak datastructures. 04:30:28 if it wouldn't work with weak hash tables it won't work with weak pointers either 04:31:19 what do you mean? 04:31:40 <_deepfire> rahul, well, to be fair, "weak pointers are all you need" is not quite true 04:31:43 I'm saying that weak pointers aren't sufficient to implement usable weak mappings. 04:31:50 you're talking about a situation where weak key hash tables don't work 04:32:08 for your situation, you need doubly weak hash tables 04:32:11 no, weak-key hashtables still work, but not when they're implemented incorrectly. 04:33:00 no, I want a weak hashtable. 04:33:04 a key-weak hashtable. 04:33:24 <_deepfire> ...but not value-weak, right? 04:33:27 right. 04:34:05 <_deepfire> Well, I don't at all see how weak pointer help here, then. 04:34:16 <_deepfire> *pointers 04:34:21 thank you 04:34:22 I don't see how weak values will harm you 04:34:46 <_deepfire> rahul, well, again "weak pointers are all you need" is quite obviously false 04:34:55 <_deepfire> face it 04:35:16 <_deepfire> it's okay to be wrong 04:35:17 _deepfire: you can make a weak hash table using weak pointers... 04:35:35 otherwise it's impossible to ever have a weak hash table 04:35:41 <_deepfire> rahul, you mean "value-weak" here 04:36:19 weak entries should make the keys weak 04:36:23 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:36:33 but I'm trying to figure out why doubly-weak won't work for this case 04:36:51 you always want to keep the value around but allow the key to get GC'd if the key is referenced from the value? 04:37:19 if the key is referenced within the value, you need to allow the value to be weak to allow the key to be weak 04:37:29 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-208-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:37:29 or rather to allow the key to be GC'd 04:38:37 <_deepfire> Yeah, the value reference will leak then, I guess, only wipeable through clrhash. 04:38:51 as I said originally 04:39:29 <_deepfire> This might be what he wants, anyway. I'm not sure I'd want it, generally. 04:39:45 so you can implement that using weak pointers 04:40:08 the value will not leak, I mean 04:40:09 <_deepfire> How? 04:40:35 either the whole entry has to be removed because of weakness or not 04:40:40 <_deepfire> Maybe he exactly wants it to be pinned. 04:40:55 if the value is strong and contains a reference to the key, the entry can never be removed by GC 04:40:58 <_deepfire> We'll never know since he walked away :-) 04:41:06 *Adlai* is still around... 04:41:36 so a weak-key hash table will never do anything different from a hash-table with weak pointers as keys 04:41:43 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 04:41:46 no, it will do something different 04:41:49 <_deepfire> rahul, well, this is to be expected by anyone who uses anything weak knowingly 04:41:53 that is, in that case 04:42:09 Adlai: it will collect just the key and leave the value with an invalid pointer in it? 04:42:23 <_deepfire> Unless you understand exactly your reference picture you don't have a license to use anything weak. 04:42:42 <_deepfire> rahul, that'd strongly imply a GC malfunction. 04:42:46 no, if the key is unreachable, and the value can't be reached except through (gethash ), then the value is unreachable too. 04:42:48 _deepfire: exactly 04:43:12 Adlai: then what do you lose if the value is weak, as well? 04:43:56 you lose references other than the key which are available through the value 04:44:10 huh? 04:44:20 <_deepfire> Adlai, could you rephrase? 04:44:45 I am feeling a little sleepy, but that sentence makes no sense to me at all 04:45:20 there could be objects which can only be reached through the value. 04:45:27 <_deepfire> right 04:45:40 if the key is reachable, then the value, and these other objects, should also be reachable. 04:45:41 and who cares if they're collected at the same time as the key is removed? 04:45:56 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 04:46:04 hmm 04:46:05 I think I see 04:46:16 a reference to the key should keep the value around 04:46:22 if the key and the value are weak, then the value, and the objects, could get collected while the key remains. 04:46:24 right 04:48:13 theoretically I see how that's bad, but I've never thought of a case where I had that kind of situation and ever cared _when_ the objects were removed from the hash table 04:48:17 or if 04:48:39 it's not a matter of when 04:48:44 it's the kind of thing that would happen in a cache, and if the entry got removed, I'd just reload it 04:49:07 when meaning under what conditions, not what time 04:49:07 if both the key and the value were weak, then you could have a situation where the key remains, but the value got lost. 04:49:24 yeah, I'd just go to the database and re-read the object, then :) 04:49:47 yeah, that's always an option. I'd rather have a reliable datastructure. 04:49:59 then I wouldn't use weakness :) 04:50:32 weakness can be reliable if it's implemented correctly (just like GCs) 04:50:37 I don't see a use case for a weak key hash table that is basically an index 04:50:59 in a situation where I _need_ the index to be perfectly reliable 04:52:32 reliably weak and reliably strong in those situations 04:55:37 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-255-196-121.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:48 <_deepfire> Well, I guess the implicit key->value reference not being accounted for really does sound a little crippled. 04:59:17 <_deepfire> Extensible GCs? 05:00:19 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:00:47 <_deepfire> Defining methods on datastructures and participating values for specifying implicit references. 05:01:01 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 05:03:08 I think you can get this behavior by having weak keys and entries in a custom-made hash table 05:03:43 basically, if it's weak at all, have the reference to the entry be weak 05:06:56 As long as you can identify a broken weak reference unambiguously that sounds fine. 05:12:51 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:35:16 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 05:36:44 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 05:36:49 i must go, happy new year to everyone 05:37:01 -!- phaer [i=phaer@chello084112190080.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:15 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.46.66] has left #lisp 05:42:10 -!- cmm [n=cmm@109.64.105.213] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:42:51 cmm [n=cmm@109.64.105.213] has joined #lisp 05:43:38 can you portably define print-object methods on built-in lisp classes? 05:45:02 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 05:45:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 05:45:21 yes, but 19 is confusing :( 05:45:56 you can't, because those methods would be applicable when the arguments are instances of built-in classes. 05:46:14 right, that's how I was interpreting it. 05:48:25 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:49:17 -!- Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:51:33 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:51:49 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:51 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:53:42 sykopomp: basically, for you to define a method in your system, there must be something in your method's identifying characteristics that associates it with a package you define 05:54:23 sykopomp: either the method's name, a class it specializes on, or the qualifier must be a symbol defined in your package 05:54:33 a symbol created by your package 05:55:10 that's a general rule that goes beyond what ANSI requires (which is that you have to have something that's outside of the CL package) 05:55:28 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439888.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:55:42 -!- joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:55:52 you could always use an anonymous class, or even better, name it with a gensym... 05:55:59 *Adlai* ducks 05:56:01 joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 05:56:39 Adlai: yes, that's a second allowable case :) 05:56:47 it's perfectly reasonable in some cases 06:05:08 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:05:19 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 06:05:56 jgriffin [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-mzyxbooavpuaksvu] has joined #lisp 06:06:17 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 06:07:31 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 06:07:32 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:10:18 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 06:18:56 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:21:37 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:22:15 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 06:27:25 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 06:37:35 plage [n=user@117.3.4.61] has joined #lisp 06:37:37 hejdu 06:37:57 or in english: hello all of you 06:38:54 hejdu 06:39:44 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["out"] 06:42:01 What did I miss? 06:43:41 rahul: I tend to go for presentations with presentation-to-command translators. 06:44:46 plage: yeah 06:44:55 kenanb: Istanbul? You must mean Miklagård! 06:44:55 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 06:45:02 but here I want things that are basically like buttons 06:45:24 there's no generic location where there's a reasonable gesture to invoke this command 06:45:53 it's a command to add an item to a list, like you have in emacs customize 06:47:33 I already have :gesture :select on the edit command and :gesture :describe on the remove command 06:47:58 adu [n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:51 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:55:04 mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 07:12:58 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:06 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:27:41 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 07:28:02 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.172.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:28:24 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Client Quit] 07:32:26 slyrus [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 07:34:33 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 07:35:45 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:36 -!- jgriffin [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-mzyxbooavpuaksvu] has quit ["Page closed"] 07:47:50 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:52:59 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:55:37 <_deepfire> Ok, feeding the unhandled-error-within-disable-debugger-processing during iolib build to the buildbot's module set bisector. 07:55:48 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:55 -!- FullMetalHarlot is now known as KatrinaTheLamia 07:59:19 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:23 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:01:10 can individual files not depend on systems in asdf? 08:02:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:04:18 ramus`: no 08:04:27 _deepfire: could you show me the error ? 08:04:48 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:04:52 Moin moin! 08:07:12 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, it's a special one -- it's undisplayable 08:07:32 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, I don't have no stack trace, no nothing 08:07:48 show me what you've got 08:07:51 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, unhandled error with --disable-debugger 08:08:56 <_deepfire> http://wiki.feelingofgreen.ru/desire-waterfall/out/3/1043 08:09:36 <_deepfire> There you get the desire's internal output intermingled with build-generated output. 08:10:28 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, note that it doesn't happen with iolib alone 08:10:44 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, which is why I started this whole module set bisection thing 08:11:30 try setting *compile-verbose* and *compile-print* to T 08:12:47 <_deepfire> Good idea! 08:14:35 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:09 merl15 [n=merl@80-121-7-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:19:18 EwS [n=ews@c-76-102-249-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:07 QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 08:21:19 -!- plage [n=user@117.3.4.61] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:27 <_deepfire> Ok, a couple of reboots underway.. 08:28:58 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 08:30:04 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:37:46 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:40:16 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-113-168.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:41:36 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:42:35 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 08:45:06 good morning 08:56:12 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 09:06:43 hi mvilleneuve 09:07:26 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-040-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:48 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-040-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:11:08 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 09:13:47 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:15:12 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:15:15 -!- hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:40 hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 09:28:45 Axius [n=ade@92.85.218.24] has joined #lisp 09:30:28 smanek [n=smanek@38.106.200.130] has joined #lisp 09:32:54 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 09:33:52 -!- smanek [n=smanek@38.106.200.130] has quit [Client Quit] 09:37:09 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:37:33 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 09:47:13 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:13 morning 09:59:17 hi Krystof 10:00:01 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:06:42 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:08:31 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:10:26 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:39 plage [n=user@117.3.4.61] has joined #lisp 10:11:43 Good evening! 10:11:47 -!- dys` is now known as dys 10:15:14 nacerix [n=nacerix@195.24.199.34] has joined #lisp 10:15:30 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:16:44 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:17:29 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:20:05 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.218.24] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:21:36 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 10:23:58 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:26:07 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 10:30:31 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:48 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-121-192.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:29 Joreji [n=thomas@40-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:41:09 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-103-68.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:41:41 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:51 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:47:50 [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-21-168.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:29 teiresias [n=user@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 10:48:31 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:49:27 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:50:14 [2]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:38 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:00:39 -!- merl15 [n=merl@80-121-7-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:19 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 11:02:42 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 11:04:42 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:13 -!- nacerix [n=nacerix@195.24.199.34] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:38 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:51 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:09:30 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:13:01 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:23 -!- kenpp [n=kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:15:04 -!- [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-21-168.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:15:28 Joreji_ [n=thomas@40-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:18:25 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:25:18 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:27:49 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f725eeb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:51 gz [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:26 zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:30:48 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@40-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:34:51 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:38:49 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:39:13 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:28 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 11:41:44 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f722b70.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:53:27 -!- hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:55:39 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:56:16 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:00:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:04:11 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 12:04:18 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-121-192.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:05:35 Krystof: is there a particular reason why SBCL's asdf is lagging a bit behind the git version? 12:07:27 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:31 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-040-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:38 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-040-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:09:43 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-040-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:57 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-040-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10:48 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:51 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 12:10:56 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- [2]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A87C6.versanet.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- spooofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- guaq_ [i=gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- dym [n=dym@217.20.175.226] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- tvaalen [n=tvaal@terminal.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- jyujin_ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- teiresias [n=user@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- plage [n=user@117.3.4.61] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e179221173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c156-35.icpnet.pl] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.249.205] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.197.223] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.182.14] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:56 -!- chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:46 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 [2]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 teiresias [n=user@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 plage [n=user@117.3.4.61] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 prxq [n=mommer@e179221173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 benny [n=benny@i577A87C6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 weirdo [n=sthalik@c156-35.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.249.205] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.197.223] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 spooofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.182.14] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 dym [n=dym@217.20.175.226] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 tvaalen [n=tvaal@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 guaq_ [i=gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 jyujin_ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 12:11:48 stattrav_lab [n=stattrav@210.212.55.3] has joined #lisp 12:11:59 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:06 -!- plage [n=user@117.3.4.61] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:12 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:12:18 plage [n=user@117.3.4.61] has joined #lisp 12:13:28 is there a particular reason why it should not? :-) 12:13:44 asdf-binary-locations probably 12:16:36 hohum [i=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:47 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:22:29 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 12:22:46 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit ["be back later"] 12:24:33 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:25:43 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 12:27:47 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:23 that's exactly why I'm asking 12:28:33 *luis* hugs his copy of asdf-binary-locations 12:32:31 is there a standard function which does, hmm, the opposite of what #P does? Ie. given a pathname, returns a string that would result in the same pathname when fed to #P? 12:34:35 mathrick: NAMESTRING 12:34:58 ooh, that's inconsistent 12:35:08 I was looking for PATHNAME-* 12:35:08 how so? 12:35:14 Ah, right. 12:35:21 but thanks 12:35:57 (FWIW, I think the CLASS-SLOT style of accessor naming is harmful, but when you apply it, you should at least do it consistently) 12:36:19 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@40-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:37:00 Well, I suppose PATHNAMEs and NAMESTRINGs are two different things. 12:37:33 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 12:37:43 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:01 how is it "harmful"? 12:40:45 tcr: it pollutes the names with unnecessary at best, and misleading at worst details 12:41:26 You actually just wanted to take advantage of these "unnecessary" details 12:41:46 tcr: that's the "at least do it consistently" part 12:41:52 The only problem I see with it is that it breaks down somewhat for complex hierarchies. 12:41:58 everything else is called CLASS-SLOT 12:42:04 luis: not just somewhat 12:42:11 I've seen it break very badly 12:42:17 I like it how with defstruct, inherited structures get their own structure2-slot accessors 12:42:32 which only work on structure2 instances, whereas the base-structure accessors will work for both 12:42:53 That sounds like a good solution. 12:42:57 so you can be very precise on what you want 12:43:03 it's still pollution, IMHO 12:43:20 tcr: got any defclass macro to do that? :) 12:43:24 the worst case of breakdown I've seen was when I was binding GooCanvas (a GObject/GTK+ library) with CL-GTK2 12:43:34 luis, defclass 12:43:56 because it has things like GooCanvasItem, and then every subclass for whatever reason defines its own properties like x, y 12:44:08 so you have ellipse-x, rectangle-x, etc. 12:44:08 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:44:17 and you just can't use generic accessors 12:44:38 luis: No, I just use structures :-) 12:44:56 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:32 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:46:22 mathrick: re. consistent naming; I always wanted to write an apropos-on-type for sbcl, but haven't come around 12:46:44 mathrick: the problem there is that you're dealing with C. :-) 12:46:50 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:47:34 Adlai: heh, nice. (I had to grab the logs to see that char, stupid Windows font handling.) 12:48:49 luis, ouch... I have to work with Windows now, but I just run it in vbox and still have linux and emacs and everything running beneath it :) 12:48:57 luis: not really, GObject is real OO and has nothing to do with being in C 12:49:26 it's just an example of a type hierarchy where CLASS-SLOT naming breaks down completely 12:49:29 I think symbols should be allowed as package names, and defclass should introduce a new package named like the class, and the slots are interned in that package. (superclass slots are imported etc.) I'd hope that to lead to an improvement. I always wanted to experiment with that to see to what results it leads in practise. 12:49:59 Adlai: well, life's tough, with enough tweaking it's bearable. Anyway, I spend most of my time in Emacs anyway. 12:50:11 tcr: oh, you mean symbols as symbols, and not package designators? 12:50:16 yeah 12:50:23 that'd conflict with (find-package 'foo) though 12:50:34 I wish there was a full, cleanly written CL-in-CL interpreter 12:50:41 hm? 12:51:04 mathrick, how would it conflict? 12:51:04 right now symbols-as-package-names are interpreted as string designators naming the package 12:51:17 if you wanted to interpret them as symbols, you have a semantic conflict 12:51:26 you'd just specify that find-package pays attention to the symbol, not just the symbol-name 12:51:47 Adlai: but that's a conflicting change 12:52:00 Sure, it wouldn't be ANSI CL anymore. 12:52:03 well yeah, that's the whole idea... making CL a bit better. 12:52:08 CLtL4 ! 12:52:22 and you'd also have to introduce a syntax for accessing sub-symbols, though I guess just allowing multiple : in symbols would be enough 12:52:25 mathrick: See that I said "experiment" 12:52:27 so foo:class:slot 12:52:30 tcr: sure 12:52:51 but anything you do in CL needs to pay attention to compatibility, IMHO 12:53:14 mathrick: I don't think many use (find-package 'foo), most use (find-package :foo) anyway, so it wouldn't probably break much 12:53:28 QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 12:53:28 famous last words :) 12:53:50 Compatibility is just one factor you have to pay attention to 12:53:52 mathrick, the whole point here is to experiment with something new 12:53:54 Decisions are trade offs. 12:54:05 the current package system is flawed because packages themselves are a flat namespace 12:54:24 this is a possible approach to fixing that flaw. 12:54:37 But yeah sure it's important. But there are two kinds of compatibility: code compatibility, and mindshare compatibility. 12:55:46 yeah, still being almost the oldest still-used language means you have to be extra careful about code compatibility 12:55:56 mathrick: For example, the change would be more compatible than allegro's modern mode :-) 12:56:02 youngsters like ruby can just redefine their world when they release 1.9 12:56:15 please don't mention Ruby 1.9 12:56:23 tcr: allegro's modern mode was a big fat lie in its original form 12:56:40 good thing they stopped lying about readtable case at least 12:56:53 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:57:06 Adlai: why not? 12:57:56 I think it's a really good example of "you can afford to be irresposible when you're young and don't have anyone to support" 12:58:09 mathrick, because I have five other buffers full of ruby code, and that's six buffers too many. 12:58:18 heh 12:58:29 I feel your pain, ruby is annoying 12:58:30 this is supposed to be a refuge from that world! 12:58:39 though honestly, so is python, just in other ways 12:59:05 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 12:59:09 Python: "There's only one way to do it" 12:59:15 Perl: "There's more than one way to do it" 12:59:16 ...as is C, but has really started to get on my nerves. It was semi-acceptable before when there weren't many sane alternatives (and I didn't know CL) 12:59:22 Ruby: "Here's a new way to do it!" 12:59:40 Adlai: "and another one, though we're not exactly sure how they're different" 12:59:47 I suppose this is one of the few corners of the internet where I can get away with saying something as snarky as this: Ruby programmers don't, on average, seem to be very smart. 13:00:02 lukego: nope, they don't 13:00:11 they seem to be, on average, very sloppy 13:00:19 lukego: I'm sure Haskell says the same about Lispers. :-) 13:00:25 IMHO ruby is a *slightl* smarter kind of PHP 13:00:40 but it invites the same culture of sloppiness 13:00:47 tcr: yeah :) 13:01:50 I was using a gem which broke with Ruby 1.9 (because Object#type_of got renamed to Object#class), so I actually had to read the gem's code... 13:01:53 *Adlai* shudders 13:01:54 One advantage of using packages as class-containers is that you get encapsulation in form of exported/unexported symbols 13:02:34 getting rid of the :accessor etc. cruft :-) 13:03:02 tcr, how does that get rid of :accessor etc? 13:04:43 I would just always generate both #'class:slot and #'(setf class:slot) (or #'class::slot) 13:05:17 what would really help here is symbol aliasing 13:05:30 hm where? 13:06:03 well, you could have the class:slot symbols be named very simply, and then alias them to whatever accessor name you wanted to use. 13:06:10 but yeah that might open even more venues :-) 13:06:32 and you'd have to completely rethink the concept of symbols and packages (: 13:06:52 for alias symbols? 13:07:02 antifuchs, we've already accepted that... 13:07:23 I predict extremely unpleasant consequences if a symbol can have more than one name 13:07:34 well, symbols will still have one name 13:07:39 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:49 antifuchs: forwarding ptrs ;) 13:07:49 antifuchs: no-one proposed that I think 13:07:54 however, (symbol-name 'package:aliased-symbol) => "REAL-NAME" 13:08:03 jamesstanley [n=james@82-33-61-156.cable.ubr06.stav.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:08:10 maybe. 13:08:51 what would (intern (symbol-name some-symbol) (symbol-package some-symbol)) return? how would some-symbol print if it's an alias symbol? 13:09:12 NDBurns [n=Nick@82-45-40-4.cable.ubr16.stav.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:09:14 I am writing a differentiating program. Can anybody explain why the d's in dy/dx do not cancel? 13:09:43 tcr: you'd still need :ACCESSOR, since it's something to tell CLOS to generate one in the first place, and it's shorter and more localised than mucking around with exports anyway 13:09:47 jamesstanley: the "d" are syntactic sugar 13:09:56 like the parentheses? 13:10:19 jamesstanley: that's horribly off-topic, but if tcr feels like helping with that... 13:10:21 mathrick: you'd have :exported t 13:10:43 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:11:20 Anyway, I'll go on doing something else now. You'd have to implement all this to dig up the problems. 13:11:29 tcr: but then you'd generate accessors for everything. Which'd drop the distinction between :accessor and :reader for instance, even assuming "all slots ever have accessors generated" is true 13:11:58 *mathrick* pokes Drakma some more 13:11:58 Chuckles [n=Chuckles@outpost.incoherency.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:13:39 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:47 mathrick: :read-only t, and the setf function and (setf slot-value) would signal an error :-) 13:14:32 (I see that the latter bit might have problems because you couldn't set the slot in initialize-instance.) 13:14:34 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-159.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:14:40 then you make yourself unable actually to set your own slots 13:15:10 which is not what :reader means 13:15:29 yeah, that would make them be more like :read-only struct slots 13:15:52 sure, but it's more what I personally would like; read-only slots after initialization 13:15:57 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:16:18 what about reinitialization? 13:16:29 ie, shared-initialize 13:16:54 sure hence my comment in parenthesis 13:18:04 tcr: that's a very big change in semantics, one that pretty much turns everything on its head. Universally, no-exceptions read-only slots aren't very useful unless you make a lot of other changes to cope with that 13:18:32 like declaring yourself purely functional and copy-on-write 13:18:37 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:38 niko22 [n=fr33fall@246-193-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:39 theoretically you could MOP up something where methods on shared-initialize could read and write all slots 13:18:58 -!- niko22 [n=fr33fall@246-193-dsl.kielnet.net] has left #lisp 13:19:22 something with make-method-lambda, or if you consider that harmful, pass in the slot setting functions as a &key arg to the method-function. 13:20:02 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:20:10 norayr [n=noch@81.16.7.146] has joined #lisp 13:25:00 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:33 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-181-117.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:26:04 the real problem is that each time you export a symbol, you also export setf function possibly named by that symbol 13:26:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:27:12 A consequence of not actually having multiple namespaces for functions and values. 13:27:16 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10552.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:27:43 -!- Chuckles [n=Chuckles@outpost.incoherency.co.uk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:28:17 um, no, isn't it exactly a consequence of having multiple namespaces? That is, that a name refers to multiple things 13:28:25 -!- NDBurns [n=Nick@82-45-40-4.cable.ubr16.stav.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:29:18 when you export a symbol, you also export access to any classes, restart names, catch tags, block names, method combinations and so on that that symbol names 13:29:46 or a single namespace for the names of functions and other values (: 13:30:03 that's a consequence of having multiple namespace and no notation to denote them precisely 13:30:04 if you're saying that it's a consequence of not separating symbol and identifier, or the consequence of not having a module system which allows those distinctions, then sure 13:31:24 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:32:40 pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has joined #lisp 13:34:21 It's a consequence of having one name and multiple values. 13:34:54 If they were in different namespaces such that those namespaces were distinguishable, then it wouldn't be an issue. 13:35:37 So you might as well say that it has one namespace and multiple value spaces. 13:36:06 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-040-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:07 Packages provide multiple namespaces, though. 13:37:52 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:38:17 But then, if you pretend that values and functions live in the same namespace and frob your names accordingly, lisp-2ness doesn't make things any worse. 13:38:42 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 13:39:35 Certainly. 13:42:38 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:44:36 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-040-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 13:47:14 dys`` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72d59a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:01 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 13:51:55 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:52:51 pr [n=pr@p579CAE4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:26 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 13:58:30 -!- dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f725eeb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:59:01 -!- [2]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:57 arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:34 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066168.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 14:15:13 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066168.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:16:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:21 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066168.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 14:16:32 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:10 mihk [n=mihk@xdsl-78-35-150-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:48 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:18:23 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 14:20:06 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10552.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 14:20:50 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10552.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 14:21:48 is it possible to declare type is a cffi pointer 14:21:57 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439888.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:22:14 type-of says system-area-pointer but that doesn't seem to be recognised as a type 14:22:37 Guthur: what do you mean by that? 14:23:26 i want (declaim (ftype (function (string) :pointer) some-func)) 14:23:47 (declaim (ftype (function (string) cffi:foreign-pointer) some-func)) 14:24:21 ah 14:24:50 that did the trick, thanks fe[nl]ix 14:25:28 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:26:13 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:26:54 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-186-254.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:25 joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:17 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 14:44:22 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:46:59 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 14:47:39 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 14:47:43 pr [n=pr@p579CAE4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:41 Axius [n=ade@92.84.13.222] has joined #lisp 14:54:31 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:54:33 Joreji [n=thomas@40-233.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:56:01 -!- mihk [n=mihk@xdsl-78-35-150-211.netcologne.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:56:42 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:18 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:59:33 schme, therep 14:59:48 tic: hey tic man. I just woke up. Wha gwan? 15:00:31 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:35 schme, you should look out for a UN*X release of 10.50 soon. It's smooth as butter! 15:00:43 (pre-alpha, but wow.) 15:00:45 Wait what? 15:00:46 has anybody used WebKit as the GUI for their desktop app? 15:00:51 tic: oh of opera. 15:01:04 tic: I was like "what. a new release of unix?" 15:01:07 schme, did I forget to add "opera" I did. Heh. 15:01:18 New Opera release on UNIX <3 15:01:24 New release of UNIX no qt. super-snappy ui. speedy browsing. oh yum. but, I'll let you see for yourselves when it's out. 15:01:51 Cools. I will keep the eye out. 15:01:54 joubert: I thought I saw mention of that on the ccl list, but I don't remember the details. 15:02:47 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.13.222] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:03:25 Xach: OK, yeah I use CCL, which includes an example to launch a WebKit window (which crashes on Snow Leopard) - but I'm curious to figure out how to bridge the CL code with JavaScript (plus make it work on Mac and Win) 15:04:46 <_deepfire> Yay, the bisector has a lock-on wrt. the iolib-related unhandled-error-withing-disable-debugger-mode failure! 15:05:06 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066168.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:05:17 stay on target! 15:05:48 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:38 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 15:10:06 Joreji_ [n=thomas@40-233.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:11:27 -!- dys`` is now known as dys 15:11:30 -!- ztzg [n=dash@dslb-084-057-006-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:12:04 joubert: Are there Common Lisp bindings for WebKit? 15:12:22 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit ["Quitting"] 15:14:11 pbusser: don't know yet, but I'm investigating perhaps using the CCL bindings to Cocoa (and hopefully Cocotron) to get to WebKit 15:15:09 joubert: What is CCL? 15:15:23 pbusser: Clozure Common Lisp 15:15:34 joubert: Ah I see. 15:15:36 tic: Also happy new year to you! 15:16:22 schme, you too! 15:16:44 pbusser: I can already manipulate Cocoa UI stuff from CCL. Busy compiling Cocotron now to test how it works under Windows. But wondering if anybody has experience integrating with WebKit :-) 15:18:24 joubert: The window opens, and then you end up in the kernel debugger? 15:18:45 sellout: for the CCL WebKit example? yes 15:19:04 joubert: Yeah, that's what I'm seeing, too. Looking into it. 15:20:56 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:35 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@40-233.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:25:21 Cocoa is OS/X specific, isn't it? 15:25:49 pbusser: Cocotron is a (in progress) implementation of the API on Windows. 15:26:15 sellout: I'm building Cocotron now to try it out - have you used it? 15:26:22 Ok. 15:26:31 *pbusser* is on Linux though. 15:26:38 joubert: Nope, but various people at Clozure have been playing with it. 15:26:52 I intend to look at the GTK bindings for WebKit. 15:27:20 sellout: I'm trying to see if I can rely mostly on WebKit for the app's GUI (with the Cocoa/Cocotron stuff just to bind to WebKit, and then all app logic is in CCL) 15:31:26 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:32:48 merl15 [n=merl@80-121-7-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:32:51 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:07 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 15:39:43 -!- prip_ is now known as prip 15:40:59 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.20] has joined #lisp 15:42:30 dl [n=user@c-76-113-113-75.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:51 -!- dl [n=user@c-76-113-113-75.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:32 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:43:50 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:16 phaer [i=phaer@chello084112190080.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:57:35 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:58:21 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:09 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:03:45 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143174.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:04:19 -!- teiresias [n=user@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:05:40 aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:06:35 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:13:15 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-28-118.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:13:16 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:29 merl15_ [n=merl@80-121-28-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:16:59 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:17:36 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:18:10 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:27 -!- merl15 [n=merl@80-121-7-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:22:24 george [n=george@20158189110.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:22:51 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:23 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:24:55 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:29:16 -!- prip [n=_prip@host148-120-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:30:35 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:31:13 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.174.231] has joined #lisp 16:31:45 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:33:06 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-255-196-121.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:15 -!- norayr is now known as jeremy_berta_mar 16:38:35 -!- jeremy_berta_mar is now known as jeremybertamaria 16:38:40 lispm [n=joswig@f054053143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:40:01 -!- merl15_ is now known as merl15 16:42:32 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 16:42:33 joubert are you just using CCL for accessing cocoa, do you know of a way to use it across implementations 16:42:37 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:42:56 I see there is cl-objc, but I've heard it does not work 16:42:59 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:43:20 Guthur: just CCL (which I'm really happy with) 16:44:13 oh ya I'm sure its a decent implementation but, I was hoping for something that is portable 16:44:42 prip [n=_prip@host76-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:44:50 Guthur: you using SBCL? Perhaps one can look at the CCL source for Cocoa and port? 16:44:50 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:04 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:45:54 might be hard to do a direct port. different licenses... 16:45:57 I had a wee look, there is a lot of it. I'm really just doing some fact finding, I don't currently have access to a mac so it would be difficult 16:49:43 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-154.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:52:29 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:10 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-040-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:20 isomer`` [n=isomer@72-254-134-11.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:13 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 16:57:50 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-040-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:00:33 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10552.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:25 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@72-254-134-11.client.stsn.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:02:59 isomer`` [n=isomer@72-254-134-11.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:33 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-28-118.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:53 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 17:04:59 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:24 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:25 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:09:19 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:12:08 Happy new year Lispers! 17:13:26 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@72-254-134-11.client.stsn.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:14:13 hi plage 17:14:33 Happy new year plage! 17:14:46 Still 6 hours to go here. :-) 17:14:56 pbusser: bummer! :) 17:16:06 We just had Champagne with the general manager of the hotel, to the tunes of a great Philipino band. If I remember, I'll put up some pictures. 17:16:25 -!- aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 17:16:58 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 17:21:34 whee. 17:21:40 happy new year, plage! 17:22:28 -!- phaer [i=phaer@chello084112190080.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:54 You too tic! 17:23:09 happy new year everybody! 17:23:28 Adlai: Thanks! To you too! 17:23:33 *Adlai* wishes pbusser, fe[nl]ix, plage, and tic a happy new year 17:23:35 May your Y2K+10 bugs be few. 17:23:42 and Xach too! 17:23:43 *Xach* has run into only a couple 17:23:45 Yes, 18 years left. 17:23:48 may your roflbots sell far and wide 17:23:51 (until the next bug hits us) 17:24:54 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@40-233.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:25:33 *plage* vanishes 17:28:52 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:34 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:11 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:32:27 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:30 tic: which? 17:32:37 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:06 the 10-years-before-2038 bug 17:33:08 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:49 Yeah. :-) 17:33:57 *tic* can't count. dinner time, obviously. 17:34:01 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:27 tic: or maybe it already struck! 17:34:49 Xach, omg! it brought us, hm, forward in time by ten years? 17:35:30 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:05 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:36:58 (1+ 2009) 17:37:22 in 5:25, at least. or did you change timezone, lispm? 17:37:41 just preparing 17:37:49 checking the numbers 17:37:53 better save that s-exp as a thunk, then. 17:38:05 don't want it executed prematurely! 17:38:12 the Ivory processor supports futures 17:38:16 no problem 17:39:07 funky 17:39:13 the year is ending 17:39:17 last day 17:39:25 and two new Lisp versions 17:40:00 two? 17:40:03 Lisp maintainers work to the last day, to get something out of this failed decade 17:40:07 two 17:40:17 sbcl-llvm? 17:40:24 sbcl-arm? 17:40:41 unfortunately not 17:41:40 2038 bug ??? 17:41:53 Axius [n=ade@92.84.15.184] has joined #lisp 17:42:16 george: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem 17:42:39 first the Maya, now the Unix designers - will we never learn? 17:43:16 bleh, I wasted 2,5h of my life watching 2012 yesterday. 17:43:39 I didn't, so far 17:44:42 I want to see the movie 2038, though 17:44:47 Xach: don't worry . I heard that the world will end in 2012 ;-) 17:44:55 "It's a UNIX system. I know this!" 17:45:02 where Unix freaks will run in panic, in 2038 17:45:09 there be raptors? 17:45:34 every 12-18 years will have something to destroy the universe 17:47:20 I think the next decade is getting great, it is getting warmer in Germany, I will have new exotic plants in the garden 17:48:19 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:49:40 ...and lots of exotic plagues, too :-) 17:51:31 -!- plage [n=user@117.3.4.61] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:33 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:52:34 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.15.184] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:53:00 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:13 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8248.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:55:34 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:56 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:57:37 awesome my dad just found my old spectrum ZX 17:57:47 Guthur: I will pay you for it. 17:57:50 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7200c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:51 hehe 17:58:25 funny i was just saying to him people would pay for it 17:58:40 Sadly I sold mine some years ago. 17:59:39 i thought mine had been given away, this is great, i will definitely checking if it still works, and if i can do a little hacking on it 18:05:55 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:19 http://ideone.com/S1luptuy 18:07:19 dys`` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72d25b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:33 a paste service that runs code snippets 18:08:46 supports CLISP 18:08:55 woah. 18:08:56 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:35 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-55-161.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:09:40 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:10:46 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 18:11:14 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72d59a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:12:55 bah humbug, I had ambitious / energetic newyears plans but it turns out I'm staying home feeling ill. I blame C programming 18:14:31 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:50 you are C sick! 18:14:56 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:23 *wince* :) 18:15:23 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 18:18:46 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:36 -!- arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [] 18:19:39 Win CE? 18:20:04 lispm: where did you find it ? 18:20:22 loonychune [n=d@cpc3-wiga12-0-0-cust416.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:37 -!- loonychune [n=d@cpc3-wiga12-0-0-cust416.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 18:20:37 what? 18:20:41 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:46 -!- dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7200c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Success] 18:21:29 ideone.com 18:22:28 hm so an option (d) for editing sources when building/running on a remote server comes to mind: have the remote server sshfs-mount the files from my laptop. maybe good in some cases 18:23:29 i usually do it like that, considering tramp and emacs is so.... slow and irritating. :) 18:25:02 yeah I hate tramp, perhaps partly because of reflexive C-c C-s habbits 18:25:26 I saw that advertized here http://delicious.com/tag/lisp 18:25:29 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:26:30 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:42 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-135-33.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:33:56 dandersen [n=dkcl@159.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:34:37 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:50 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 18:35:32 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-76-7.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:35:44 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 18:37:18 dys``` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7205ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:04 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:40:30 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:43:55 lukego: C proramming becomes pretty enjoyable once the Stockholm syndrome kicks in. just give it time 18:45:44 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:03 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:49:23 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-186-254.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:50:52 -!- dys`` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72d25b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Success] 18:54:08 QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 18:54:22 *lispm* the year be better over soon, I'm already typing (quit) to the FTP client... 18:54:58 instead of quit 18:54:59 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:55:06 will 2010 change that? 18:55:24 I hope to be less confused then 18:55:28 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A87C6.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:55:46 Good plan. 18:56:56 plan b: use FTP from Lisp 18:57:13 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:27 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-246-15.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:29 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-247-164.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:03 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:59:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 18:59:28 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:00:21 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-75-250.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:00:41 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-135-33.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:00:43 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 19:01:11 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:06:03 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:12 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:06:14 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:06:19 re 19:07:33 dys```` [n=andreas@krlh-5f734750.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:13 aintme [n=user@89.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:12:18 dys````` [n=andreas@krlh-5f720a18.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:24 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:13:32 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:13:42 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 <_deepfire> lukego, have you seen NX? 19:14:06 no? 19:14:16 <_deepfire> nomachine.com 19:14:53 I used freenx to access another compute; not very impresive. 19:14:55 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:15:41 <_deepfire> Well, I mostly work over NX these days. Can't imagine life without it.. 19:16:11 doesn't work very well w/ stumpwm and my custom keymap, IIRC. 19:16:28 <_deepfire> I use the nomachine's client/server, not freenx, though. 19:16:44 okay. might be different. 19:19:10 <_deepfire> Turned out it was wipe-everything-generated that made difference in the iolib-related unhandled-error-withing-disable-debugger-mode failure case. 19:20:19 <_deepfire> So the prior-loaded module set wasn't the issue and the bisector only helped to make that sure. 19:20:42 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 19:20:50 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:20:53 <_deepfire> I guess newer SBCL is what I'll try next. 19:20:57 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 19:21:12 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:24 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:22:46 -!- dys``` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7205ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:24:43 -!- george [n=george@20158189110.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:55 -!- dys```` [n=andreas@krlh-5f734750.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 19:26:33 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:26:43 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:26:51 <_deepfire> Ok, the issue apparently went away with sbcl 1.0.34.1 19:27:36 <_deepfire> Whereas prior it was 1.0.32.14 or somesuch. 19:28:26 *_deepfire* fires a rebuild across 220+-wide module set. 19:28:47 ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:29:14 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:33:11 _deepfire: have you found the problem ? 19:34:39 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, updating SBCL made the whole and only difference. 19:35:13 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, the reproducibility issues were tied to existence of generated files, not to the pre-loaded module set. 19:36:29 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, no further insights, unfortunately. 19:37:37 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.3.186] has joined #lisp 19:37:51 <_deepfire> Ok, gotta go. 19:38:02 <_deepfire> Happy new year, everyone! 19:38:24 Happy new year _deepfire! 19:38:28 :) 19:38:31 -!- jeremybertamaria is now known as norayr 19:38:33 :) 19:38:35 *pbusser* is still counting down. 19:38:38 <_deepfire> :-) 19:39:25 12 hours, 20 minutes, 31 seconds 19:40:03 PST always has to wait until everyone else has tried the new year. 19:40:05 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 19:40:23 Heh! 19:40:37 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-132-233.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:40:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-75-250.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:40:52 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 19:47:35 td123 [n=tom@adsl-70-131-148-164.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:20 what's a good book that teaches cl? 19:48:39 PCL 19:48:43 minion, tell td123 about pcl 19:48:44 td123: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:48:47 *td123* used to play around with common lisp but hasn't really done much more 19:49:17 k, will take a look at it 19:49:30 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:33 -!- hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:40 are there any other ones, or is PCL THE choice? 19:49:49 it is THE choice 19:49:55 k ty all 19:56:34 Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:50 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:59:07 when i try to load slime with sbcl 1.0.29, i get the error "Don't know how to REQUIRE SB-BSD-SOCKETS." any idea why? 20:01:24 serfurj, it means that your SBCL was built without that contrib 20:03:11 and that means your sbcl is incompletely installed 20:05:32 ah, thanks 20:07:27 [stoop] [n=stoop@188.52.15.93] has joined #lisp 20:10:28 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:10:44 -!- [stoop] is now known as stoop 20:10:45 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:33 whenever i try to asdf-install a package, it hangs at "downloading 46387 bytes from..." for 2-3 minutes. it does this with sbcl 1.0.18, 1.0.29, and 1.0.31. any idea why? 20:13:04 jgriffin [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-asiovylnfqmyakjy] has joined #lisp 20:13:12 serfurj: Which package? 20:13:54 -!- jgriffin [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-asiovylnfqmyakjy] has left #lisp 20:14:15 currently drakma, but it happens with every package i try 20:14:30 Hmm. 20:14:46 cephalopod [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-asiovylnfqmyakjy] has joined #lisp 20:15:51 -!- merl15 [n=merl@80-121-28-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:03 drwhat [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:07 serfurj: what platform? 20:17:19 -!- td123 [n=tom@adsl-70-131-148-164.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:17:20 x86_64 20:17:22 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 20:17:29 and operating system? 20:17:34 linux 20:17:42 from where did you get sbcl? 20:17:47 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:10 1.0.29 from sourceforge, 1.0.18 from debian lenny, 1.0.31 from debian stable 20:18:19 *unstable 20:18:39 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-242.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:18:58 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:52 hurray for my-slime-{to,from}-lisp-filename-function 20:19:57 serfurj: i usually use sbcl and asdf-install from sbcl cvs and it works pretty well. hard to say if it will work ok for you, though. 20:20:32 I have a drakma package for Debian. 20:21:28 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-175-71.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:23:36 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-242.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:06 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-238-240.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:55 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-242.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:26:46 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:29:51 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:38:13 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 20:38:59 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:02 -!- dys````` is now known as dys 20:42:18 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-242.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-246-15.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143174.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- guaq_ [i=gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- dym [n=dym@217.20.175.226] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- tvaalen [n=tvaal@terminal.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- jyujin_ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- spooofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-238-240.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-132-233.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-55-161.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.182.14] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.249.205] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c156-35.icpnet.pl] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.197.223] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e179221173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:42:18 -!- chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:44:02 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-113-168.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:44:26 george [n=george@20158189110.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:45:42 I find this code very ugly: http://fresh.homeunix.net/~luke/misc/repo/slitch/src/tuntap.lisp what are the obvious cleanups? 20:46:54 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212095021167.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 20:47:16 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 20:47:35 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.3.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:29 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-238-240.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-132-233.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 prxq [n=mommer@e179221173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 weirdo [n=sthalik@c156-35.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.249.205] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.197.223] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.182.14] has joined #lisp 20:53:34 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-235.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-246-15.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143174.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 spooofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 dym [n=dym@217.20.175.226] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 tvaalen [n=tvaal@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 guaq_ [i=gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 jyujin_ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:18 lukego: FFI code is usually ugly :/ 20:55:41 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:56:50 lukego: yeah, if you get rid of the need to talk to C and unix, that code doesn't look bad at all ;) 20:57:22 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 20:58:37 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-235.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:59 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-235.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:59:14 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has left #lisp 21:06:21 morally that looks like a dozen lines to me 21:06:33 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 21:06:53 INIT-TUNNEL looks particularly dodgy 21:07:56 that's because you fold in strncpy (alike) 21:09:07 dalton [n=user5442@187-27-251-56.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:10:03 better way? 21:10:28 if it were Erlang I wouldn't even bother with a record definition, I'd use the bit syntax to construct an anonymous structure in-place as a byte array 21:11:06 could help to have a substantial bit of alien example code to read 21:12:09 I suppose sbcl itself is the place to look for that 21:12:52 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:13:39 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:14:25 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:14:30 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-182-119.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:16:49 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:17:11 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212095021167.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:28 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 21:18:03 lukego: hmm, but it looks like you have an off-by-one problem there? 21:19:37 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-182-119.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:08 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:20:21 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:21 (unless the name is not a ntcs and you're aware of abusing ifru space) 21:20:28 raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 21:21:47 lukego: if you don't care for string descriptions, I suppose with my py.struct hack you can do (pack "16sH14x" "ze-name" (logior 1 2 #x1000)) 21:23:38 adeht pasted "python.struct hack" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92871 21:23:58 sbcl-dependent code 21:24:39 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:24:47 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 21:26:18 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212095021167.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 21:27:33 benny [n=benny@i577A7DE6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:29:39 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [No route to host] 21:33:47 that's quite fun :) 21:34:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 21:35:07 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-103-68.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Gone to sleep"] 21:37:15 p0a [n=user@athedsl-380820.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:38:12 Intensity [i=[9wZk4yy@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 21:39:27 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 21:41:08 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-180-205.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:41:15 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 21:42:46 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:51 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:50 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f0e4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:32 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f720a18.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:47:35 -!- dys` is now known as dys 21:49:22 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f722165.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:24 dys`` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7221cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:27 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-172.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:56 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f0e4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:51:58 -!- dys`` is now known as dys 21:54:55 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212095021167.public.telering.at] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 21:55:30 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:46 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212095021167.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 21:57:53 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:58:50 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212095021167.public.telering.at] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:01:03 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:24 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:05:34 QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 22:06:31 -!- dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f722165.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:06:41 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:27 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212095021167.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 22:07:46 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f737a54.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:51 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:08:58 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:09:40 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-180-205.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [No route to host] 22:09:50 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:10:31 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:12:33 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f7221cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:12:36 -!- dys` is now known as dys 22:12:49 ejs [n=eugen@109-167-3-27.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 22:15:58 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:16:52 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 22:17:04 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 22:17:36 is anyone here in any way related to http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/ ? 22:18:45 it looks like it hasn't been updated in a couple of years, and some of the links don't work, but it seems pretty cool to me.. 22:20:11 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Client Quit] 22:20:44 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 22:21:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@109-167-3-27.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:21:51 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:23:27 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.3.186] has joined #lisp 22:27:16 -!- Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ltjzmvuxdspytmfe] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:27:20 Tordek_ [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-lwzuuybxqcrascme] has joined #lisp 22:32:31 lukego: http://gist.github.com/266945 <- fixed it a bit 22:35:21 mjsor [n=mjsor@168-103-49-137.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:23 it would be nice to somehow construct the struct inline with just WITH-ALIEN 22:37:30 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:51 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:38:03 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:38:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 22:38:24 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@168-103-49-137.eugn.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:29 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 22:39:41 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 22:41:48 something like (with-packed-alien (req "16sH14x" name (logior type-code +IFF-NO-PI+ +IFF-ONE-QUEUE+)) ...) ? 22:43:04 rather (or name "") 22:44:48 should be easy to add a struct-stream-protocol method for alien octet vectors.. with-packed-alien would then calc-size, allocate and pack into the vector, run forms, free.. 22:47:22 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:49:23 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:53:24 hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 22:53:56 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.3.186] has quit [Success] 22:54:10 I dig the pack.lisp hack but would quite like to find a pure alien solution 22:54:18 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:05 I'm not aware of one 22:55:12 lukego: why didn't you write a bit syntax macro in CL? (: 22:55:52 I also thought erlang's syntax was nice 22:56:14 but the Lisper in me says: strings are bad for structured stuff 22:56:57 (which is one reason why FORMAT is evil ;) 22:57:11 adeht: erlang doesn't use strings for its bit syntax either. 22:57:33 pkhuong: huh? that's not what I remember.. /me checks Programming Erlang 22:58:50 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439888.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 22:59:19 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 23:00:01 (incf *year*) 23:01:28 ah right. <<>> and using macros for "abstraction" 23:03:45 Happy UTC+2 New Year. 23:05:04 ah, yeah. happy new years. a new year, a new beginning. 23:06:15 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 23:09:00 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212095021167.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:04 -!- ausente [n=user5442@187-27-251-56.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:50 antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:28 lukego: is the restriction that bit patterns must make a whole number of bytes ever a problem? 23:13:05 never did for me, but I don't think that restriction exists anymore 23:13:33 it was only that the sum of all bits used in the pattern must be 8-aligned 23:13:55 lukego: right, whole bytes. 23:13:56 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 23:15:08 in modern erlang it doesn't have to be whole bytes. but even before the restriction was only that you have to (de)construct whole-byte-arrays (binaries), not that there were any byte-boundaries visible within the pattern 23:16:14 -!- fihi09``` [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:36 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:16:42 and now? you can match a random number of bits? 23:18:15 "A segment of type binary must have a size evenly divisible by 8.", now that's not true, but even the pattern itself can represent an arbitrary number of bits? 23:20:41 2> <<0:7>>. 23:20:41 <<0:7>> 23:21:26 -!- antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:57 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA9C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:00 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:41 Cool. Is there special support to match on the tail of a pattern? 23:23:56 example? 23:24:14 NB: I'm not especially up-to-date on erlang 23:24:52 davazp` [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:57 1> <> = <<1,2,4,5,6>>, {First, Last}. 23:24:58 * 1: a binary field without size is only allowed at the end of a binary pattern 23:25:12 joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:12 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:25:20 so perhaps not 23:26:07 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:34 And if I want to perform further matches on Last, is there some support to do that without copying to a temporary buffer? 23:26:47 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 23:27:14 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 23:28:25 in Erlang you just split the big binary up into lots of little binaries, and the runtime system tries to do this efficiently behind your back (imagine the binary is a bit more like a tree or iovec than a byte array) 23:28:33 k. 23:28:51 pkhuong: How do you mean match tail of a pattern? <> = <<1,2,3>>. Tail => <<2,3>> ? 23:28:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:56 when it goes horribly wrong you google for "erlang binary efficiency guide" or trawl the mailing list archives to understand how it does that :) 23:29:09 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 23:29:15 MaTThewP [n=Rachu@cpe-24-95-54-134.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:40 lukego: still, it's hard to see how to efficiently match on a value that doesn't begin on a byte boundary (: 23:29:57 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:30:51 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:32:02 meh. Still much better than rolling it by hand. 23:32:54 starseeker_ [n=CY@96.234.232.166] has joined #lisp 23:33:49 so the Forth programmer in me would like to construct these alien structs just with a read syntax that looks like a hex dump 23:34:57 paste an example? 23:36:13 hmmm... Happy new year, I guess 23:36:26 happy new year, p_l ! 23:36:48 (let ((struct #x"00f1e3bba3.....")) ..) 23:37:50 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 23:37:58 Happy new year! 23:38:22 lukego: so you'd override #x at that too :p 23:39:29 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 23:39:36 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 23:39:41 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:39:51 lukego: why alien ? 23:40:06 sadly the simplest solution is probably to write 10 lines of C and call that from alien 23:41:11 cffi already has most of what's needed for this 23:41:45 lukego: copy*-to-system-area? 23:41:59 except the reader syntax and the pattern matching 23:43:07 fenix: could you point out a relevant cffi example? 23:44:32 fe[nl]ix: no need for reader syntax. Just parse a string; a compiler macro can take care of parsing it at compile time. 23:46:35 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 23:51:20 lukego: it's possible to reuse the internals of cffi:defcstruct to create an anonymous struct at compile-time and do the bitwise destructuring that erlang does 23:52:15 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has left #lisp 23:52:18 nobody bothered to do that just yet 23:52:40 jpbarrette [n=jpbarret@modemcable098.216-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:54:27 I've got a problem with macros: I want to "unpack" some parameters which are variables that contains a list. Paste to follow... 23:54:33 jpbarrette pasted "bad macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92880 23:54:48 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:35 Is there anyone to help me? I'm pretty sure it's quite simple... 23:55:43 jpbarrette: did you expand it? 23:55:55 <_3b> 'don't do that' is the obvious solution 23:56:12 What would be the other solution then? 23:56:22 args is bound to the symbol *test-args* 23:56:29 <_3b> either pass it an actual list, or expand it at runtime 23:56:36 You try to splice a symbol into a list 23:56:51 In fact, originally the function called is a macro, not a function 23:57:31 lispm: yeah absolutely, but I don't know how to solve that kind of issue (by changing idom or not) 23:57:44 <_3b> what would you expect (let ((*test-args* '(4 5 6))) (addition-macro 1 2 *test-args*)) to return? 23:58:00 jpbarrette: &rest args 23:58:07 use something like `(apply #'+ ,arg1 ,arg2 ,args) 23:58:22 can you think of some magic data structure to perform lookups in a sorted list/vector subject to deletions... with the added advantage that the lookups are batched? 23:58:30 yeah... but the real example is a macro, not a function.... 23:59:14 jpbarrette: I'm confused to what this "real example" is. Can you maybe explain how it is different from this not so real example? 23:59:15 then use &rest args as mentioned 23:59:37 okay wait... I'll send the complete example 23:59:55 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp