00:00:00 lispm: on LMFS ? 00:00:04 yes 00:00:15 foom: that *could* be it 00:00:16 man, Slime's ability to browse into the source code of the implementation is awesome. I get lost for hours. 00:00:18 I thought so 00:00:39 in a directory listing it looks like >a>b.directory 00:00:45 btw, right now there are at least five FS path styles in use: the oldest lets.pretend.we.have.directories.by.putting-dots-in-names; the DOS-style DEVICE:\dir1\dir2\dir3\8.3 unix style /a/b/c NT's \\a\b\c and VMS' HOST:DEVICE:[DIR1.DIR2.DIR3]file.txt usually you can't put dir separators in names 00:01:02 or probably is it. still, i have to say, if you choose the correct distribution and a decent laptop, the chances are that hibernation and suspend will work out of the box 00:01:17 malsyned: i've yet to find a nicer way to look under the hood. The only thing that approaches it is a lot of paper and an index. 00:01:22 or this is my experience from a few different laptops and debian as the distribution 00:01:25 p_l: then add unicode 00:02:27 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-91.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:02:38 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:02:51 lispm: add the fact that Windows has three filename namespaces in NTFS, and then three separate pathname namespaces for opening files (and the traditional ones allow / as dir separator) 00:03:17 lispm: and I have the impression that VMS too has that: "[a.b]" and "[a]b" 00:04:21 -!- uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:04:38 on unix you can't have a directory "a" and a file named "a" in the same directory 00:05:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:39 I know 00:05:56 Jabberwockey [n=jens@i59F78573.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:06:33 probably we could have dir "a" and file "a" in a new lispmachine and this issue would probably be named as path-2 :) 00:07:46 In the Unix implementations of cl that I've encountered, they give the appearance of allowing a file and a dir with the same name, so long as they don't have both the same name and the same type field. 00:07:46 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 00:08:43 I think the list of file systems supported by FUSE looks quite long... 00:08:49 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.102] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:09:01 malsyned: eh ?? 00:09:32 -!- arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-214-150.net-htp.de] has quit [] 00:10:05 fe[nl]ix: (equalp (pathname-name #P"foo.bar") (pathname-name #P"foo")) => T 00:11:12 malsyned: but none of those is a directory 00:11:15 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:11:50 fe[nl]ix: either of them could be. 00:13:32 malsyned: not according to the CL standard: try (ensure-directories-exist #p"foo.bar") 00:14:12 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 00:14:13 malsyned: or (ensure-directories-exist #p"foo.bar/") then (truename #p"foo.bar") 00:14:53 fe[nl]ix: I don't believe that the CL spec actually /prohibits/ filenames containing "." 00:15:07 (truename #P"/bin") => #P"/bin/" but that doesn't change the fact that it's possible to talk about a directory *as if* it were a file. 00:15:18 fe[nl]ix: There was some mess about this with ASDF :static-file components.... 00:15:41 malsyned: I'n not sure that truename is guaranteed to behave that way across implementations. 00:16:03 rpg: I think clisp behaves differently. 00:16:10 PCL's pathname chapter talks about this issue. 00:16:10 rpg: there's no prohibition of that, but it's not what my discussion with malsyned is about 00:16:18 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:17:04 btw, in order to properly support windows NT (and possibly MacOS, though OSX makes it less of an issue), we'd have to actually extend logical pathnames... 00:17:34 rpg: the CL pathnames were devised based on file systems which have separate namespaces for files and directories, and that causes endless problems today 00:18:17 fe[nl]ix: Also the CL spec doesn't extend to common OS queries... 00:19:25 *rpg* must go... 00:27:14 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:28:50 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:07 docgnome [n=docgnome@174.120.42.4] has joined #lisp 00:36:43 anyone available to give me a hand building sbcl? I built it and installed it in /opt/sbcl but when i try to run it it says it can't find sbcl.core 00:37:28 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:37:34 docgnome: point $SBCL_HOME to install directory 00:37:35 docgnome: read the part in INSTALL about setting SBCL_HOME. 00:37:49 use --core parameter or expoprt SBCL_HOME 00:38:16 docgnome: install sbcl from apt then build the recent version using clbuild 00:38:17 pkhuong, how do distros manage to install the core in /usr/lib/sbcl and have the core file be located without setting SBCL_HOME? 00:38:26 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:43 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:40:12 docgnome: i find clbuild pretty well both for newbies and advanced users since it easily gets libs and sbcl update them get dependencies etc, it configures slime to work with sbcl etc. its nice :) 00:40:24 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 00:40:25 malsyned: through modification of defaults 00:41:59 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.216.190] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:43:27 both INSTALL_ROOT and SBCL_HOME are set to /opt/sbcl and it complains that they conflict when i try to run the install again 00:43:38 benny` [n=benny@i577A8A19.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:43:48 Does the bot offer a "seen" function? 00:43:53 ,seen abhishek 00:44:33 -!- plage [n=user@117.3.4.61] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:44:37 minion: seen abhishek 00:44:37 abhishek was last seen 5y6m14d32h43m10s ago, saying "minion: when are you going to support seen?" 00:45:37 docgnome: SBCL_HOME should /opt/sbcl/lib/sbcl. See section 1.2 in INSTALL. 00:45:41 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8982.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:45:46 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:45:47 AH. thanks. 00:45:51 <_3b> minion: when are you going to support seen? 00:45:51 why do you want to know? 00:46:31 minion: That's been a while, hasn't it? 00:46:32 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 44 seconds is too many. 00:46:45 stassats`: thx 00:46:50 answers a question with another, minion should have been male 00:47:50 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 00:48:58 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:50:46 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:50:52 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:52 -!- docgnome [n=docgnome@174.120.42.4] has left #lisp 00:51:09 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@i59F78573.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:51:16 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 00:51:17 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@83.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:27 bbe [n=bbe@121.233.98.123] has joined #lisp 00:54:06 -!- benny` is now known as benny 00:57:13 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:59:03 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:00:48 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0B653.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:16 I have a list with 50 items. How do I efficiently map over the items 10 at a time? My desired behavior is: (apply #'append (map-n-at-a-time 10 #'(lambda (sublist) (lookup-items-at-amazon sublist)) many-item-ids)) 01:01:48 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:02:57 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 01:03:22 gonzojive, have a look at the "group" function in On Lisp. It, combined with mapcar, should do what you want. 01:03:34 (loop for part on (make-list 50) by (lambda (x) (nthcdr 10 x)) ...) 01:03:57 gonzojive, use loop, subseq, nthcdr 01:06:08 thanks all 01:08:23 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:13:10 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:52 -!- Aisling [i=ash@24.89.251.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:21 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-19-248.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:21:40 Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@79.138.152.31.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 01:22:07 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:24:08 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-70-181.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:26:14 -!- Fare [n=Fare@adsl-71-146-76-38.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:26:16 <_3b> will any of the CL equality predicates compare sb-sys:int-sap usefully? 01:32:14 Aisling [i=ash@blk-89-251-92.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 01:36:57 Fare [n=Fare@208.90.214.102] has joined #lisp 01:37:09 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:42 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:43:13 saikatc [n=saikatc@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 01:43:30 -!- gottesmm [n=user@dhcp184-48-43-254.hissf.sjc.wayport.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:47 _3b, none of them seem to. Shouldn't be too hard to make a predicate that will, though, with sap-int and = 01:45:30 <_3b> malsyned: right, but theoretically the stuff i'm comparing is an opaque data type, so i'd rather use a generic comparison if possible :) 01:46:10 _3b, you could use sap= 01:46:19 <_3b> though possibly it will always be a foreign pointer of some sort, so using something from cffi imght be appropriate 01:46:46 _3b, sap= is totally what you want 01:46:49 _3b: I would tend to say that EQL should, even if it doesn't. 01:46:57 <_3b> malsyned: trying to avoid platform specific code though 01:47:37 <_3b> pkhuong: do they not have identity? 01:48:01 _3b: nope. 01:48:19 _3b, aren't you already in a platform-specific mode, using sb-sys:sap in the first place? 01:48:27 They're very number-like. 01:48:44 <_3b> malsyned: nope, that is just what i got from cffi 01:49:04 _3b, ah. Then yeah, you should probably see if CFFI has an equality predicate. 01:49:40 Meanwhile, we can all go on wondering why CLOS doesn't define a generic equality predicate. 01:50:11 <_3b> malsyned: it defines an arbitray number of them, it just doesn't give you any default methods for them :) 01:51:10 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:05 _3b, fair enough. But most subsequent languages have provided one by convention, and there has been much rejoicing. 01:53:26 malsyned: there *already* are at least 4. 01:53:54 pkhuong, none of them are generic functions though, so you can't implement any of them for new data types. 01:54:34 malsyned: which one would you have made generic? 01:55:29 pkhuong, sadly, I can't recommend any of the existing ones. equalp would be closest, but its case-insensitivity disqualifies it. 01:57:35 So, how could CLOS have defined one generic equality predicate, if none of the *four* existing ones would be satisfying once made generic? 01:57:40 <_3b> (defgeneric really-equal-p (a b &key case-sensitive resursive ...)) ? 01:58:00 _3b: contextl layers (: 01:58:05 <_3b> or maybe a 3rd argument to specify a comparator class with mixins for case folding, recursion, etc 01:58:10 <_3b> or that :) 01:58:51 &allow-other-keys :P 01:59:09 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:00:17 I'm actually curious what the use-case is for equalp. It offers comparison for structural equality in nearly all cases, but is slightly more permissive in the case of strings. 02:00:34 <_3b> malsyned: who needs that when you have :allow-other-keys t :p 02:00:51 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.21.202] has joined #lisp 02:03:48 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@78.180.91.5] has left #lisp 02:03:51 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:08:12 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:35 prxq_ [n=mommer@f051111201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:17:24 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.132.114] has joined #lisp 02:21:42 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.249.165] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:49 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-76-7.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:22:56 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:22:59 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23:13 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@195-23-167-97.net.novis.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 02:23:25 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:39 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-63.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:27:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-38-17.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:29:36 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.251.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:38 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:30:14 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.120] has joined #lisp 02:31:05 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g227079015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:31 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-63.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:33:53 bubo [n=bubo@212-183-56-119.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 02:37:57 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.120] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:38:19 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.249.205] has joined #lisp 02:38:19 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:45 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:41:28 -!- Fare [n=Fare@208.90.214.102] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:41:29 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:42:29 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 02:43:57 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has joined #lisp 02:45:12 JonSmith [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:59 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 02:54:37 Hey all, thought I'd take on a difficult task 02:55:01 Thought I would write a very basic http server in lisp - I know next to nothing about http servers, and am green with lisp 02:55:24 seangrove, how'd it work out for you? 02:55:36 Heh, just thought of it about an hour ago 02:55:47 So it could be a good starting point - I've been reading through the http1.1 spec, but anyone have any suggestions for where to start? 02:56:08 I know there's cl-http, but that seems very full-features to me 02:56:27 seangrove, pick a lisp implementation. Learn about its networking features. 02:57:00 If you're on Linux, SBCL is popular and its sockets API is strongly based on the BSD sockets API 02:57:02 Using SBCL for my last few mini-projects 02:57:54 pick up hunchentoot, write something else instead 02:58:11 What else would I write? 02:58:12 Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:02 I wouldn't go as far as stassats`, since your project may be a good learning experience. But I would ask that you not try to take it public when there are plenty of good alternatives already out there. 02:59:03 something that you actually need and that haven't been written before 02:59:05 It's not going to produce anything tangibly practical, but I'll likely be familiar with two new concepts 02:59:32 malsyned: Yeah, I don't mean to produce any competing implementations...probably not even finish it. Just doing it for the journey 03:00:03 writing something actually useful for you is more motivating 03:00:24 Yeah, but there's less guidance available while I'm doing it 03:02:52 kmc [n=keegan@207.237.163.75] has joined #lisp 03:03:00 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.21.202] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:03:17 -!- kmc [n=keegan@207.237.163.75] has left #lisp 03:03:38 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 03:05:31 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA73F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 03:06:56 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:07:59 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 03:17:20 dys``````` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72fe14.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:20 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 03:18:55 -!- dys``````` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72fe14.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:19:12 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72fe14.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:57 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 03:26:07 CinnoberRast [i=HydraIRC@79.138.152.31.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 03:26:38 -!- Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@79.138.152.31.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:28:09 Transformer [n=Transfor@ool-43563460.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:38 -!- Transformer [n=Transfor@ool-43563460.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 03:32:01 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:40 -!- dys`````` [n=andreas@krlh-5f737ec5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:33:39 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d815f6f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:00 -!- wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d818b48.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:35:14 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 03:47:01 -!- Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:54 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:53:40 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:01 jleija [n=jleija@c-75-66-184-43.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:23 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:57:36 -!- JonSmith [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:58:46 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:59:23 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:09 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:01:14 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:03:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:03:32 minion: memo for tcr: autodoc on HEAD doesn't work for me at all, I haven't looked closer 04:03:33 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 04:04:25 -!- jleija [n=jleija@c-75-66-184-43.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:14:06 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 04:16:22 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:16:34 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:40 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:20:40 -!- bougyman [i=bougyman@pdpc/supporter/gold/bougyman] has left #lisp 04:22:37 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.187.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 04:22:40 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-208-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:20 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@99.13.242.166] has quit [] 04:26:26 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:27:38 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:28:00 hrm. i wonder if there's a tree library that could help with what i'm doing... 04:28:23 and what you're doing? 04:29:06 i've compiled a tree where strings are leaves and branching occurs to indicate parent/chlid relationships 04:29:39 essentially i'm parsing indented text, and things at the same level of indentation are "siblings", while anything lower than you is a new branch... 04:29:45 that part's easy 04:29:56 but i'm trying to normalize data out of this structure using some arbitrary searching 04:30:03 lithper1 [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:10 basic items, ie: scan the tree to find X, and return all siblings is easy 04:30:27 basic items, ie: scan the tree to find X, and return X & all level 1 children is also easy 04:30:57 but i'm pondering where i need to search down for X, then Y, then Z, and include all siblings of Z while keeping the history... 04:31:02 Why not ask a question about the non-easy bit ... 04:31:04 essentially turning a tree into rows. 04:31:13 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-154.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:16 i figured before i reinvent the wheel, i'd ask 04:31:25 and get my ass chewed on by rahul 04:32:26 so i'm reading a file that is indented, and turning parent entries with indented children into rows of output (ie: csv) 04:32:35 (csv was quick using format...) 04:32:55 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:33:02 all the libs i have found so far are for binary trees and the like. 04:33:18 i thought data extration was different ;] 04:33:43 So you want to iterate a tree, emitting all of the paths through it? 04:34:14 to a specific child level 04:35:14 i think my use cases so far are: scan for pattern X and return rows for each X, scan for pattern X and return rows for X + all direct children of X, now i need to do X -> Y -> children of Y... 04:35:49 hrm. talkign it out helps too... perhaps i just need to change my search input to be a list of patterns and nest in a tree too... 04:36:00 its a logical progression 04:36:21 but again, figured i'd ask before i reinvent the wheel 04:36:27 The trick is working out which way standards will converge, which is difficult. 04:36:40 A place where I think they really dropped the ball was strings, though. 04:37:03 uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:18 well, the good news is that i'm making a general search, but i'm passing functions to the searcher for arbitrary leaf transformation and exception handling 04:37:23 On the other hand, they needed to support historical mistakes, so ... 04:37:40 so my queries know what they are looking for and supply things to "fix" the data in the tree. 04:37:46 demos: Why not just walk the tree using specials to accumulate path information? 04:37:50 so i just concentrate on the gernric 04:37:55 specials? 04:38:08 (i agree, string handling sucks! i'm originally a perlite) 04:38:10 Dynamic variables. 04:38:31 but no way could i do the dynamic functions and meta-code in perl... 04:38:52 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-235-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:30 i think one of the reasons this got complicated in implementation was that my leaf data type is a list of strings, where the original line was split on spaces... ;] 04:39:48 i've considered making a struct for the leaves to make it easier to identify 04:40:28 Strings aren't easy to identify? 04:40:38 Ah, lists of strings. 04:40:48 Well, a little struct can go a long way. 04:40:49 -!- bbe [n=bbe@121.233.98.123] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:40:55 yeah. 04:41:01 bbe [n=bbe@114.234.146.80] has joined #lisp 04:41:09 ok, so i just rescanned the portion of PCL on dynamic variables... 04:41:14 i don't see anything new there... 04:41:14 (defstruct leaf value) :) 04:41:25 (leaf-p node) ;] 04:41:33 yeah its updating all the other code ;] 04:41:56 you know, i don't have a single global var (defvar/defparam) in my entire program. 04:42:21 a bunch of lets of limited scope & recursive tree sscanner 04:42:53 Do you understand how to rebind dynamic variables? 04:43:11 let in a new context overrides variable value? 04:43:40 Rebinds. 04:44:00 So if you were to, for example say (let ((path (cons node path))) ...) where path is special ... 04:44:24 repointing into the tree? 04:44:45 Please stop making up gibberish and using it like jargon. 04:44:55 i'm a hodgepodge, pardon. 04:45:07 you mean dynamically binding a local pointer into the tree somewhere? 04:45:13 Um, no. 04:45:29 Imagine my example code in a recursive function. 04:45:29 oh, you want to use that to record the nodes where you came from. 04:45:34 Good. 04:45:46 you're building a list back up the tree. 04:45:50 thats a neat idea. 04:46:35 since i'm basically building key/value pairs anyway, i was thinking of just passing a list of k/v already captured in a list recursively. 04:46:56 but i could delay all that parsing until the final leaf 04:47:57 i appreciate the insight! i'm going to go diagram on the whiteboard for a few to see if i can make this generic enough! 04:49:42 bbe_ [n=bbe@114.234.191.236] has joined #lisp 04:58:07 -!- bbe_ [n=bbe@114.234.191.236] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:59:20 Zhivago: thats wild! i love the idea of recording the path back up the tree... i'm going to go code this tonight! ;] 04:59:29 Good luck. 05:00:59 -!- nus [n=nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:03:25 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 05:04:44 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:06:59 -!- bbe [n=bbe@114.234.146.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:40 i just noticed that the PCL doesn't discuss defstruct. 05:07:59 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:11:22 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["sleep"] 05:14:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:15:40 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:26:05 Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:04 Question: What's a good book to get started with in lisp with perhaps projects and such for one who is experienced in many non-functional languages? 05:27:39 The good news is that lisp is procedural. 05:27:43 <_3b> minion: tell Mezner about pcl 05:27:44 minion: tell Mezner about PCL 05:27:44 Mezner: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:27:46 Mezner: PCL's good 05:27:59 tough to swallow at first, but grows on you 05:28:13 by halfway through i was convinced i had to learn despite the pain. 05:28:27 Mezner, i think Commo Lisp by Paul Graham is a great straight to the point book. 05:28:34 I started playing via emacs and now I'm interested in the language in general 05:29:25 Common Lisp is not "the language in general", it's just one of the dialects 05:29:38 nor is it absolutely compatible with emacs lisp 05:29:42 and Emacs lisp uses a different flavoer, Emacs Lisp 05:29:43 i hear thats deficient in some ways 05:29:47 s/lisp / 05:30:31 ok so I'm best to learn sort of the common language and then delve deeper into say emacs lisp? 05:30:53 there's no common language 05:31:26 well there's a few themes which run through them all like lambda, symbols, lists 05:32:21 bbe [n=bbe@121.233.99.210] has joined #lisp 05:32:54 well thank you for the info guys. I appreciate it 05:34:21 Mezner: the "two languages for the price of one" approach won't work.. if you want to learn a language, learn it on its own terms 05:35:04 eh, there IS a common core. it's just spelled differently everywhere :) 05:35:38 but that is the sort of thing that is best learned by actually learning each language 05:36:02 actually, better to learn enough languages that you get the hang of learning languages and don't need to study each anew, but ... 05:39:08 adeht, I don't think I meant to indicate that I wanted to learn two for the price of one so to speak, but rather to start in more general terms and work into specific flavors after that. 05:40:18 Mezner: my suggestion still stands 05:40:57 that's two by the price of 1.5 05:41:51 besides, I'm not aware of a "Common subset of Common Lisp and Emacs Lisp tutorial" 05:42:44 -!- bbe [n=bbe@121.233.99.210] has left #lisp 05:42:45 Well I don't imagine I can go too terribly wrong by reading this book and then figuring out what I want to know from there 05:43:07 PCL is a good book 05:43:14 A lack of imagination is a terrible thing. 05:45:02 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.72.23] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:45:32 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 05:46:59 Mezner01 [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:39 -!- Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:47:44 -!- Mezner01 is now known as Mezner 05:49:23 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:43 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-110-190.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:56:05 konr [n=user@187.88.24.100] has joined #lisp 06:02:52 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:41 phaer [i=phaer@chello084112190080.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 06:06:13 konr` [n=user@189.96.74.227] has joined #lisp 06:06:51 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:24 -!- madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:14:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 06:15:12 madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has joined #lisp 06:15:45 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.24.100] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:16:49 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 06:17:50 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 06:19:38 slyrus [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 06:22:35 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-138-152.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:28 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 06:33:49 -!- uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:34:29 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:34:44 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:35:37 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:44:55 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 06:46:55 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:47:11 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:47:15 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:48:43 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:52:16 -!- bubo [n=bubo@212-183-56-119.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:27 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:24 Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:09 maus [n=maus@222.253.74.42] has joined #lisp 07:03:26 Good afternoon! 07:03:52 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:10:47 <_deepfire> stassats, I think gb weaseled out of answering your defstruct bug report. 07:12:11 bubo [n=bubo@93-82-85-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 07:13:57 <_deepfire> Well, not bug report. 07:16:16 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has joined #lisp 07:19:26 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:21:44 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 07:22:19 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-0-225.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:22:56 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:25:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:25:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:45 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:29:04 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.178.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:30:53 Demosthenex pasted "Trees!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92805 07:31:23 Zhivago: looks like i got it! =] 07:38:03 smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:15 Is there a portable way to 'quit' common lisp? Every implementation seems to keep it in a different package ... (e.g., (sb-ext:quit) or (ext:quit)) 07:40:03 Demosthenex annotated #92805 "Sample output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92805#1 07:40:23 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:42:04 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:43:47 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 07:45:50 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 07:52:28 minion, portable exit for smanek 07:52:29 portable exit: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/portable%20exit 07:56:54 smanek, a more adventurous alternative would be to find symbols (via APROPOS-LIST) whose names are "quit", "exit", or "bye", and hope for the best. 07:57:16 -!- phaer [i=phaer@chello084112190080.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:33 good morning 08:06:46 c|mell [n=cmell@124.157.197.86] has joined #lisp 08:15:23 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["out"] 08:16:34 Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@95.209.82.29.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 08:17:22 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 08:18:07 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:42 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-26-149.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 08:30:09 -!- CinnoberRast [i=HydraIRC@79.138.152.31.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:09 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as CinnoberRast 08:30:48 Adlai: Thanks, but I'm not quite that adventurous ;-) 08:42:10 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:42:27 mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 08:49:09 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-26-149.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:49:12 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@124.157.197.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:49:34 hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439888.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:50:42 -!- madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:08 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:10 -!- lithper1 [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 08:58:04 dr_maligno [n=dr_malig@95.214.64.120] has joined #lisp 08:59:17 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:59:18 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 09:02:19 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-94-44-10-158.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:04:16 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:05:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:55 -!- bubo [n=bubo@93-82-85-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 09:06:39 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:06:52 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:08:43 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:09:25 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:10:41 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-0-225.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:14:28 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.74.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:17:53 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 09:18:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:18:39 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 09:21:34 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 09:25:32 -!- dr_maligno [n=dr_malig@95.214.64.120] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:29:30 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:30:06 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:32:50 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:13 Axius [n=ade@92.85.209.133] has joined #lisp 09:33:20 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:39:39 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:08 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:46 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:48:01 joswig [n=joswig@e177120052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:48:37 angel [n=angel@221.223.134.174] has joined #lisp 09:49:12 how can i translate a simple-vector to a string? 09:49:23 #(97 110) 09:49:51 what do you mean? 09:49:58 you want to print it out? 09:50:14 oh you mean like interpret the thing as ascii characters 09:50:35 yes, i want print #(97 110) to a string 09:50:50 clhs coerce 09:50:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 09:50:57 have i mentioned recently i adore key'ed parameters vs perl's positional crud 09:51:09 thanks 09:51:16 perl's hash style params aren't any better, you have to manually check them 09:51:19 that's not an answer I was just checking something 09:51:36 angel: are these numbers supposed to represent characters? 09:51:37 tcr, memo from stassats: autodoc on HEAD doesn't work for me at all, I haven't looked closer 09:51:50 -!- cmeow [i=cmeow@207.192.71.173] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:51:53 stassats: oh? 09:52:13 cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 09:52:47 angel, yeah something like (map 'string #'code-char #(97 110)) 09:53:28 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:54:39 stassats: That's strange, it worked for me just fine. Must have been bitten by hidden state. 09:56:04 soupdragon: that depends on whether the numbers came from code-char initially; if not, if they're octets encoding a string, you need sb-ext:octets-to-strings (or the babel library) 09:56:31 oh hey that's a good point 09:57:13 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:57:20 Moin moin! 09:57:22 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177157147.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:10:11 angel_ [n=angel@221.223.134.174] has joined #lisp 10:11:50 hey angel did you miss what me and tcr said ? 10:12:35 send angel_ fjdl 10:13:13 soupdragon , i get it 10:13:38 thanks alot 10:14:11 but why it cant work with (mapcar #code-char #(97 110)) 10:14:48 -!- angel_ [n=angel@221.223.134.174] has quit [Client Quit] 10:16:19 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:16:56 the coercion parameter 'string 10:18:22 -!- angel [n=angel@221.223.134.174] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:25:18 stassats: fixed 10:31:59 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:32:44 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 10:32:48 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:37:34 cheap logic shortcut or dangerous? testing whether a custom function was passed using (or custom default) vs (if custom custom default) ? 10:37:41 to call with funcall 10:38:53 uh, that's the same thing 10:38:58 What you'd sometimes want to do is &key (custom nil customp) and then (if customp custom (do-something-else)) 10:40:13 i know they're close ;] 10:41:23 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:42:16 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 10:42:54 lukego, did you ever find a s-exp-based C? 10:43:36 morning 10:44:40 there's lush but I don't know how good it is 10:45:16 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.209.133] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:47:01 re. a C-Lisp? Not from what I can tell... I "just" want regular C with s-exp syntax (which gives you macros!) that flattens to readable C. 10:47:22 oh dear, was the cl-perec test suite really as slow as the hu.dwim.perec test suite seems to be today? 10:47:52 ISTR being able to run the test suite and then get results on the same working day. Not any more. 10:47:55 lichtblau, i think the new one has a whole lot more random tests 10:48:12 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-10-158.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:48:41 hmm, it's possible that it spent all night busy-looping in the same test. 10:48:52 lichtblau, also note that the random tests are at the end, so you can C-cC-c and the 'q' the debugger and get back a partial rest result 10:49:42 I'm somewhere in `dimensional' tests. 10:49:47 also, there's some annoying infinite loop somewhere currently... but the automated test runs are on the way! 10:49:49 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:50:38 dwim.hu will run the test for all our libs and the result will be inspectable from the web 10:51:48 attila_lendvai_: is there scope in your setup to do that with the frozen version of sbcl? 10:51:58 ideally every month, but specifically this month's today? 10:52:09 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 10:52:39 -!- attila_lendvai is now known as Guest31443 10:52:40 Krystof, i'll keep that in mind... :) i've just compiled an sbcl head 10:53:12 -!- Guest31443 is now known as attila_lendvai 10:55:31 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:55:33 well, I plan to release either this evening or tomorrow morning 10:55:59 it would be nice to know that it works approximately as well as whatever other version you're using 10:56:09 also, someone here recently tried to install perec using clbuild. I don't recall who it was, but if you're still here, try the clbuild fork at http://www.knowledgetools.de/open-source/clbuild-dwim-live/ for the dwim.hu live repositories. 10:56:49 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:56 *attila_lendvai* never started that .sh script... :) 10:57:25 *levente_meszaros* did 10:59:45 anyway, I'm currently going through our allegro fixes (enough to compile things and try easy examples, but not pass the test suite). 11:00:16 lichtblau, do you think the evaluation (or whatever) allegro version could be used? 11:00:39 Krystof, fyi, i'm usually at most a week or two distance from the head... but i'll give it a go in the next hours and report back with any unexpected behavior 11:00:53 because if we could set up automated daily testing with allegro too and put the results in the same database 11:01:05 that would be helpful I guess 11:01:13 lichtblau, once you have something that doesn't break it on sbcl, then just publish your repo link... 11:01:36 attila_lendvai: thanks! It would be great to have HEAD sbcl be automatedly tested, if you have the capacity for that 11:01:51 but a manual run would be much appreciated 11:01:52 noted 11:02:03 levente_meszaros: I don't know, but we could set up automated tests if you tell us how to do it. 11:02:11 has anyone heard of this specware thing before? 11:02:59 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-10-0.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:03:28 lichtblau, the hu.dwim.home project will contain all code for that, but even if you set up your own I would set up ours too to have the result available from the same db 11:03:49 not me, but i also got through the first few paragraphs of the example, which means that it's somewhat interesting, even with some intentsoft background 11:06:46 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-175-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:17:23 kenpp [n=kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:23:37 Krystof: It sounds interesting. 11:25:10 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:34:29 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:35:37 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:35:42 -!- smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:38:33 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:44 pkhuong: are you about? For random-foo-float, rngs tend to generate things in the range [0,1). I'm tempted to specify (0,1) instead -- care to comment? 11:38:53 smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:03 madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has joined #lisp 11:43:07 -!- plediii [n=user@casentino.rice.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:12 Jabberwockey [n=jens@voyager.visitor.congress.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:31 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:45:50 plage [n=user@203.113.164.206] has joined #lisp 11:45:55 Good evening! 11:47:24 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 11:47:42 hi plage 11:48:06 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:23 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:53:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:05 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:56:15 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 11:56:55 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:58:23 Krystof: What's up? 12:00:32 not much 12:00:42 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:00:42 sbcl release day, possibly 12:01:00 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:05 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:21 looking at extensible random-state protocols, and how not to sacrifice speed on the altar of extensibility 12:05:13 putting off the actual work that I'm meant to be doing (checking exams, writing articles, that kind of thing) 12:06:17 here's a question. If you do (defstruct foo (a 0)), would you expect (make-instance 'foo) to work? What about (make-instance 'foo :a 1)? 12:11:18 gut feeling: i'd be positively surprised 12:11:27 but i would not expect it. 12:11:46 Fewer differences between structures, conditions, and standard instances would be nice. 12:12:39 (But then I liked Dylan at a point, so the whole DEFSTRUCT thing only looks like a special case of sealing to me, where someone "forgot" to integrate it with the rest of CLOS.) 12:14:14 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:14:37 Eggenheimer [n=james@host86-156-246-38.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 lichtblau: well, (defclass foo () ((a :initarg :a :initform 0)) (:metaclass structure-class)) is I believe specified to work 12:15:13 how much more "integrated" do you need? 12:16:27 OTOH make-instance isn't specified to have a method on structure-class 12:16:46 bah 12:16:55 "different metaclass" says "not integrated" to me, and locations need to be fixed on a per-slot basis, plus inheritance sealing, plus method sealing, etc. 12:17:17 basically all the fancy CMUCL CLOS sealing stuff I've never tried plus much more 12:18:11 I'm trying to step through a function in the Slime debugger. I've added a call to (break) to invoke it but when I step through the frames I seem to be examining the internals of Slime/Swank rather than my function. I'm using SBCL and I called my function from the REPL. Any ideas? 12:25:32 Krystof: Sounds more exciting than the work you ought to do. 12:31:00 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:45 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:33 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 12:35:52 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #lisp 12:36:13 -!- ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:36:16 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:38:02 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 12:39:46 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:44:08 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:44:42 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:09 Krystof: i've seen all 4 possibilities and [1, 2). But if we only provide 1, why (0, 1)? 12:46:24 -!- smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:47:27 pr [n=pr@p579CA73F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:28 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Client Quit] 12:47:50 I guess [0,1] is the most useful one with multiply by scale... 12:50:50 p_l: [0, 1), since the scale is a limit in CL. 12:56:35 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:02:01 so the /persistence test suite mostly works (5 failures), but the /query test suite keeps running into the deadlock problem, to an extent that I don't see how to run it at all. (This is on SBCL.) 13:05:30 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:17 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:00 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:30 lichtblau: What are you trying to test? 13:20:43 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-56-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:23:39 lichtblau, there is a known bug (deadlock or whatever) in perec's query test suite which I guess tomi could fix in january 13:24:30 -!- Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:07 that would be nice. For now, I apparently managed to work around it by commenting out parts of the test suite, but obviously that's not ideal. 13:26:10 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:34 ISTR recall not having a good idea how to do away with the two transactions (although I don't recall the details anyway). If you have an idea how to solve it, we could try to implement it. 13:28:06 jmckitrick [n=user@adsl-176-183-44.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:52 -!- plage [n=user@203.113.164.206] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:31:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.211] has quit ["HNY"] 13:31:51 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:36:06 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:36:25 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 13:40:24 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:40:44 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-19-248.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:50 -!- b4|hraban is now known as b4 13:40:59 -!- b4 is now known as b4|hraban 13:44:07 IIRC the problem there is that we have two transactions in the same thread with the inner one waiting on the outer, ouch 13:45:39 phaer [i=phaer@chello084112190080.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:46:18 right, but what was the reason for this architecture? 13:46:27 I think our understanding was that this inner transaction was there so that transient lisp state, which is affected when schema gets committed, cannot accidentally get out of sync with the schema just because a user transaction gets rollbacked. 13:46:44 So simply leaving out the inner transaction didn't seem safe. 13:46:49 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c156-35.icpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:48:14 in test suite we could simply avoid that, the point of those tests are not testing schema changes 13:48:38 in a production environment you always want much better control on when the schema changes anyway 13:48:58 we *do* verify the schema upon start and fail on any changes later on 13:49:19 unless we are quick patching the server from the repl where you have full control 13:49:27 oh, you do? Is there a flag to enable that behaviour? 13:50:05 there's hu.dwim.rdbms::*signal-non-destructive-alter-table-commands* 13:50:37 destructive changes should always be signaled, and there's a continue like restart (not bound to C for a reason) 13:50:55 very nice, I'll try that 13:51:19 see the condition hu.dwim.rdbms::unconfirmed-schema-change and its friends 13:51:53 and also hu.dwim.rdbms::with-confirmed-destructive-schema-changes 13:53:46 pkhuong: because 0 is a bit of a special value 13:53:54 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 13:54:02 if the doubles were actually real numbers, 0 would have an infinitesimal probability 13:54:13 so taking the log of (random 1.0) would be fine 13:54:34 weirdo [n=sthalik@c156-35.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:54:44 Krystof: any number would have an infinitesimal probability,and it would be much longer to calculate a log :) 13:54:56 if we return [0,1) in floats, 0 has a one in 2^24 (or 2^53) chance of coming up 13:54:59 koollman: yes, thank you 13:55:22 pkhuong: I'm thinking for example of Box-Muller 13:55:26 Krystof: much less than that, in principle ;) 13:55:52 pkhuong: if we mandate getting denormals right, sure 13:56:08 I note that our current implementation doesn't, if I read it right 13:56:24 I wouldn't expect so, and it breaks equiprobability anyway. 13:56:33 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:04 so if we stick with our current implementation, the Box-Muller transform as a one in 2^24 chance of blowing up. My instinct says that that's not a very high number these days 13:58:20 [0, 1) + eps? 13:58:56 + least-positive-foo-float, maybe 13:59:13 maybe I should stop worrying 13:59:29 I think I can make a random-state protocol tolerably fast, incidentally 13:59:33 Let's see how SFMT does it. 13:59:39 how's it going to look? 13:59:56 as you said, but with compiler macros transforming to specialized functions, stored in the struct part of the random state 14:00:44 so e.g. (random-integer state ) => (rem (funcall random-state-ub32-fun state) ) 14:01:02 no buffer then? :) 14:01:05 no buffer 14:01:39 So we're not using CLOS. Is sealing doable? 14:01:44 no, we are using clos 14:02:10 the default implementation of those falls through to a notinline call to the protocol function 14:02:45 effective sealing is doable, though; if the random-state's type is declared, the compiler transform can pick the right specialized function directly 14:03:27 possibly 14:03:59 oh, ok. Sounds nice... Is the vtable stored inline or pointed to by the random state? How large is the vtable anyway? 14:05:36 I would imagine 6 "methods": -single, -double, -integer, -octet, -ub32, -ub64 14:06:46 That's actually reasonable compared to most prng's state. 14:07:51 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:08:38 -!- timor is now known as timor|lunch 14:08:45 mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 14:10:00 is there an easy way to get some readline features for sbcls repl? 14:10:48 minion: linedit 14:10:49 linedit: Linedit is a portable line-editing library for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/linedit 14:10:58 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 14:11:01 there's also sb-readline, iirc 14:11:07 if you want actual readline 14:11:15 rlwrap would be the easiest 14:11:47 thanks, i will take a look 14:12:05 phaer: do you really need to avoid slime, tho? 14:12:34 you can connect to a separately run lisp via slime, too 14:12:51 so you can get a repl into a process on a server or some such 14:13:55 rahul: I'd like to learn some basic lisp stuff without learning emacs before. 14:14:02 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:15:15 phaer: rob warnock wrote a bit about that, let me find you a link 14:17:18 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52 14:18:25 phaer: that's like wanting to learn surgery without knowing anatomy 14:18:40 first you need to know how to use an editor, then you can learn how to program 14:18:51 don't listen to rahul 14:18:58 phaer: and readline is kind of based on emacs anyway 14:19:10 in terms of keybindings, in particular 14:20:26 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:09 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 14:21:23 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:21:29 Xach: thank you :) 14:21:59 rahul: The thing is: i already know an editor which i like, but i think it would be blasphemic to name it in this channel ;) 14:22:14 minion: nektuth 14:22:15 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``nektuth''. 14:22:15 phaer: well, good luck trying to forge your own path 14:22:22 or however that's spelled. 14:22:29 i think it's nekthuth 14:22:32 *Xach* shudders 14:22:36 minion: nekthuth 14:22:37 nekthuth: Nekthuth: Connection with a Lisp Nekthuth is the combination of a vim plugin and a common lisp library which enables vim users to start up or connect to a CL interpreter inside vim, and do interesting things with it. http://www.cliki.net/nekthuth 14:23:04 Lispy looks interesting. 14:23:22 doesn't say that it has a REPL 14:23:22 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:28 if it does, that page should mention that 14:23:31 G'morning all. 14:23:46 nyef: Yellow. 14:23:55 ("form evaluation" doesn't necessarily mean REPL) 14:23:57 rahul: I believe slim-vim provided a REPL via screen. 14:24:10 hmm 14:24:14 well anyway. off to work. 14:25:17 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:50 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:31:50 Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@95.209.25.47.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 14:31:53 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 14:34:28 -!- CinnoberRast [i=HydraIRC@95.209.82.29.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:29 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as CinnoberRast 14:35:05 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:37:44 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.3.186] has joined #lisp 14:37:46 Limp does via screen. 14:38:02 slim-vim was more about the ECL/"slime" integration. 14:38:10 -!- timor|lunch is now known as timor 14:38:50 tic: (from scrollback) no didn't stumble on a sexp'ey C yet 14:39:49 I have never liked emacs, but i just tried slime for a few minutes and i am impressed. 14:39:52 lukego: you're not just looking for a pretty printer, like sexpc, but something that's also executable in lisp? 14:40:09 lukego, okay. lemme know when you do. :-) 14:40:15 -!- Eggenheimer [n=james@host86-156-246-38.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:40:42 sexpc is news to me 14:41:37 404s though 14:41:50 oh, just changed the name. 14:48:01 <_deepfire> Now, the question is, do you agree to the idea that there is any aggregation you could call "the guy on top of the hill". 14:48:07 <_deepfire> Oops, ww. 14:48:41 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:50:39 -!- jmckitrick [n=user@adsl-176-183-44.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:50:58 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:51:28 Eggenheimer [n=james@host86-152-216-76.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:56:26 Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has joined #lisp 15:05:42 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:07:50 heh, i just found sbcl-devel@gmane. oh lord, the time i've spent waiting on the sourceforge horseshit. :) 15:08:39 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:44 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:10:53 minion: memo for gigamonkey: Are you interested in PCL translations? (Been thinking about possibility of polish translation) 15:10:54 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 15:13:11 p_l: I'd say he's not opposed to it: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/blog/2008/08/04/japanese-pcl.html 15:13:39 wrt. "A better serve-events" (Nikodemus) on sbcl-devel: is there any particular reason why CLOS shouldnt be used for a replacement? 15:14:43 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:43 hypno: as long as SBCL uses serve-event for basic I/O, we can't use CLOS because CLOS is only bootstrapped very late. 15:16:07 -!- CinnoberRast [i=HydraIRC@95.209.25.47.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:15 pkhuong: ah, i see. but even if it didnt use serve-event, it would /still/ need basic i/o prior to CLOS, so such a thing would still need to work without CLOS, right? 15:17:47 yes. 15:17:54 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:17:57 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:18:12 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:16 ok. makes sense then. thanks. 15:23:57 I didn't see that mail, but where would the SBCL build need I/O multiplexing? 15:25:13 lichtblau: I'm still not sure what part of CL requires multiplexing... 15:25:18 Sure, serve-event hooks into the reader in an evil way, but that should be doable as a simple function redefinition. 15:25:21 ("Slime on SBCL without threads enabled" is the only "convincing" use case for serve-event that I'm aware of.) 15:25:43 nyef had something with serve-event for a win32 event pump ;) 15:25:51 lichtblau: it's on sbcl-devel, regarding a replacement for serve-event. apparently, serve-event is dangerous. 15:27:24 i think it's great tho that people are open to incorporate such a thing. i was under the impression that the sbcl developers did not want stuff included in sbcl, but in libs. 15:27:26 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #lisp 15:28:35 hypno: I'd like the core of SBCL to be as tiny as possible, with bundled libraries. 15:28:49 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-10-158.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:10 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has left #lisp 15:29:42 hypno: that "dangerous" part is the only "advantage" which distinguishes serve-event from iolib. If you drop that, you might as well not have serve-event as an SBCL-specific feature at all. 15:29:42 a popular proposals was that we'd only offer the hooks to write an event loop instead of providing one. 15:30:55 lichtblau: heh, yeah. 15:31:06 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-10-158.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 15:32:53 -!- Eggenheimer [n=james@host86-152-216-76.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["oh bai"] 15:36:40 pkhuong: sounds good 15:37:14 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 15:39:16 The essential problem with any implicit I/O multiplexer like serve-event is the process model. 15:40:00 nyef: hmm, what do you mean? 15:41:25 I mean that it's essentially a polled-interrupt-driven system, and as soon as your fd-handlers start doing anything complex you can run into trouble. 15:42:27 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-175-13.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:42:51 -!- xristos [n=nx@research.suspicious.org] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 15:44:04 redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-074-232-249-027.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:57 -!- phadthai [n=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:14 nyef: not necessarily 15:50:47 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:00 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:51:07 How do i install asdf packages in slime? I can do "(require 'asdf) (require 'asdf-install) (asdf-install:install 'pkg-name)" in sbcl (shell command) but i get an "Don't know how to REQUIRE ASDF-INSTALL" error in slime. 15:51:59 phaer: perhaps your slime runs a different sbcl 15:52:47 phaer: sbcl isn't fully installed if you can't (require 'asdf-install) after (require 'asdf) 15:53:05 phaer: how did you install it? 15:53:12 Xach: aptitude install sbcl 15:53:49 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:49 phaer: hmm, maybe the package system made a change that omits asdf-install or requires you to load it in some other way. the normal install works the way you tried. 15:53:53 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:54:13 *Xach* usually builds from source and doesn't know how the package system should work in this case 15:54:15 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:54:20 Xach: Happy belated. Hope it was good. 15:54:44 *Xach* bowled, and it was good 15:56:07 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:28 Heh, bowling  the rare kind of thing that I am horrible at, yet still enjoy. 15:56:30 JonSmith [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:16 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 15:57:16 Xach: I will build it myself too ;) 15:58:08 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:58:48 people outside new england don't believe that it's real until i show them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candlepin_bowling 16:00:08 -!- lusory [n=bart@bb121-6-175-80.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:17 Xach: I've been candlepin bowling! 16:00:25 *rpg* used to live in Providence, RI. 16:00:29 Xach: I've still never played candlepin, actually. I heard about it when I moved to Vancouver, and I didn't believe it either ;) 16:00:34 also, http://ourdoings.com/zachbeane/2009-12-29 <-- powered by scheme 16:02:26 the biggest problem in serve-event's *architecture* is IMO that serve-event can be reentered inside a fd handler; it's quite robust otherwise. And this problem can be fixed in application by temporarily deinstalling a fd handler if it gets invoked recursively (I know, I wrote the layer to do it) 16:03:23 kpreid: isn't recursive event handling one of serve-event's features? 16:03:39 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.3.186] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:03:51 see "serve-event delay exploit" 16:04:15 it is a feature to permit recursiveness, but a problem to invite its accidental use 16:04:30 serve-event works perfectly fine when all present handlers are blocked READ(-LINE)s and so on 16:04:50 it also works perfectly fine if they're all async io receiving/socket listening stuff 16:04:57 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:04 lusory [n=bart@bb119-74-197-124.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:05:05 problems can happen when the latter occurs within the former 16:05:32 what problem(s) do you want to solve with the serve-event replacement? 16:05:33 especially if the latter then does the former 16:05:50 the fix I mention above is that if any of the latter are invoked inside the former you inhibit them until you're back at the top of the event loop 16:06:39 for example, this means that if you're in a debugger break inside your network server io handler, the serve-event due to the debugger repl doesn't handle yet another network request while you're in an arbitrary part of the code for the prior request 16:10:11 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.179] has joined #lisp 16:10:16 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.172.250] has joined #lisp 16:11:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:10 astalla [n=astalla@net-93-149-132-176.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:16:56 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:18:04 -!- phaer [i=phaer@chello084112190080.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:19:07 fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA97B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:46 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-10-158.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 16:24:25 I fail to be able to reason about slime's usage of serve-event; in particular the interplay with specials 16:24:47 That's the other problem with the serve-event model. 16:25:27 I always found it a pain that SIGIO-driven SLIME interaction (a) did exactly what I wanted and (b) was fundamentally unsound :) 16:25:59 demmeln [n=Adium@p5B0C7C0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:34 lukego: what were the circumstances that you thought to move on from lisp? 16:28:57 I took a job at an erlang startup that kept me busy for a few years, and haven't found an excuse to do serious lisp hacking since (but occasionally looking for one) 16:29:24 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.3.186] has joined #lisp 16:30:02 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:30:05 xan [n=xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:16 are you rich yet, lukego? 16:30:27 no, that's the clojure guy 16:30:39 Krystof: just another few years ...... :) 16:31:17 I am hacking a network optimization box that I hope to sell for zillions but still panel-beating the linux kernel into a working prototype :) 16:31:48 network optimization box? proxy/cache or what? 16:31:58 current fantasy is to rewrite the tcp/ip stack in lisp, but at this stage the fantasy is still changing every couple of weeks :) 16:32:06 you've already done that 16:32:18 hypno: "last mile optimization" to make tcp run better over quirky networks (esp. 3G) 16:32:21 some of us have long memories 16:32:32 krystof: well I mean to do it in a way that really works :) 16:34:18 I have two programs that I'm thinking of rewriting in lisp as an experiment - a network emulator that acts like a router and simulates specific quirky network behaviour, and my tcp flow visualizer (that I've already (re)written in erlang, smalltalk, and python) 16:34:19 lukego: hmm. and sell to telecom providers or somesuch, eh? sounds like highly "niched". 16:34:56 yes to telco providers. Akamai etc are already making billions by selling this kind of thing to Disney etc. I plan to ruin the party by selling it directly to the ISPs for mere hundreds of millions :) 16:35:13 hehe 16:36:03 well, you should use Lisp, of course. we all crave for more success stories, and besides, both Linux and Erlang has already had its fair share! 16:36:49 I am currently taking the shortest path to a working prototype (linux) and once I have that I will feel more free to play around with bigger ideas in parallel 16:37:37 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit ["Caught sigterm, terminating..."] 16:40:03 I have actually hacked quite a nice development flow now: I hack the kernel, boot a new server in 2 seconds (user-mode-linux), run ten benchmarks over an emulated 3G network (on the same host), and then visualize the ten TCP flows in a little dashboard to see what behaviour my latest changes are exhibiting. 16:40:20 just-between-us tcp porn: http://fresh.homeunix.net/~luke/example1/ 16:40:55 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:56 how did you draw those lovely diagrams? 16:41:27 with an erlang^Wsmalltalk^Wpython (and maybe soon to be lisp) program that spits out graphviz files (remember I was asking about that the other week?) 16:42:05 nice 16:42:30 I was realising that ITA-style tricks could be really nice for these kind of tools. pcap file format seems highly mmap-friendly for example 16:45:25 performance of the tools is not a huge issue until I talk somebody into giving me a humongous trace from a live network :) 16:45:40 you have to do it in realtime ? 16:45:45 no 16:45:53 it's all based on post-processing tcpdump files 16:46:00 Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:46:10 ok 16:46:19 should be fine 16:47:10 are you planning on using something like binary-types for parsing data? or something like python.struct? (I wrote a lisp python.struct hack, but the idea of using strings for the description is.. not satisfactory) 16:47:16 xach: graphviz did turn out really nice. with the SVG backend I can even annotate the edges using tooltips and stuff 16:47:59 adeht: I built on Impacket which uses a python binding to libpcap 16:48:09 mishoo pasted "random-string" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92821 16:48:30 guys, do you think I should worry that the function above ^^ might return two identical strings? 16:49:14 lukego: cool, I'll look into it 16:49:21 mishoo: do you want random or unique strings? 16:49:22 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( hmm, looks like it does for two fresh started cores ) 16:49:26 mishoo: it eventually will, as PRNGs have a cycle length 16:49:30 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:49:36 pkhuong: I'd like them to be unique, but as short as possible 16:49:45 minion: uuid 16:49:46 uuid: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/uuid 16:50:23 mishoo: stupid question, but why do you use the let around the defun and not vice versa? 16:50:26 yeah, uuid would be a safe bet, but it's rather long 16:50:28 nyef: so, scavenged foreign allocation regions... and mark/swept ones. 16:51:00 hypno: hmm, I only need the "stuff" variable in that function :) yeah, I could put it inside in fact 16:51:05 mishoo: as an aside, I would write it as (map-into (make-string len) (lambda () (aref stuff (random (length stuff))))) 16:52:08 mishoo: if you want unique, you could also just increment a counter... 16:52:37 adeht: thanks! looks nice, I was actually going to ask about how to make it simpler too :) 16:52:39 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:53:11 xristos annotated #92821 "w-o-t-s" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92821#1 16:53:30 another way 16:55:03 -!- xan [n=xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:57:46 alpen_ [i=7b76c637@gateway/web/freenode/x-ngaltsxfqzbceqaf] has joined #lisp 16:58:00 mishoo: Why not just iterate through the space of strings, ordered by length? 16:58:19 -!- alpen_ [i=7b76c637@gateway/web/freenode/x-ngaltsxfqzbceqaf] has quit [Client Quit] 16:58:53 Zhivago: not sure I get it.. what do you mean? 16:59:20 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:28 xach: I was disappointed not to find any really good SVG viewer that would let me e.g. zoom in/out on the Y-axis 17:01:18 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:36 lukego: svg seems like the result of designing a data format and waiting for the products and tools to spring up around it, rather than starting from the data format of a really useful tool... 17:01:40 adeht: the last time I did tcp hacking in Lisp I did a very high-level packet parsing thing (http://fresh.homeunix.net/~luke/misc/lisp/packet.pdf). this time I will try an ITA-style trick and just treat packets as alien C structs. 17:02:38 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-10-0.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:05:42 -!- [df] is now known as arnold 17:07:45 *Krystof* starts his sbcl-release script 17:07:49 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:28 -!- arnold is now known as burt 17:08:36 -!- burt is now known as [df] 17:08:53 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:09:15 Ooh. Does this mean I should start prepping a for-early-1.0.34 commit series? 17:09:48 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:11:10 lukego: do you mean something like a (read-field 'ipv4 'source-address packet) ? 17:11:31 (with the right compiler macros...) 17:12:14 phaer [i=phaer@chello084112190080.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:12:36 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:48 not sure what you mean 17:14:07 I'm thinking of something hefner'ey: http://paste.lisp.org/display/92575 17:14:14 (I'm not familiar with ITA-style tricks..) 17:14:56 i guess that would mean you mmap() and align C structs ontop of it, bypassing the GC. 17:15:13 hypno: yeah that sort of thing 17:15:18 "ITA-style" is a reference to http://www.paulgraham.com/carl.html 17:15:59 lukego: i'm still not quite sure what your product is about. are 3G networks somehow inherently shitty and slow? 17:16:11 yes 17:16:23 well, no 17:16:30 heh 17:16:34 it's a bit complicated :) 17:16:45 they are fundamentally a bit different than the TCP's on random internet hosts expect them to be 17:17:35 in what way? (signalling, i guess), but wouldnt the interresting parts of that be at a very low-level (below tcp at least) 17:17:52 the interesting part is making TCP play nice with the lower-level parts 17:17:59 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:59 Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:18:37 but the lower-level parts are still IP/ARP/ethernet or is that something different? 17:19:17 yeah in a 3G network there is a lot of funky shit where webservers are expecting ethernet to be :) 17:19:28 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:50 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:21 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:23:28 lukego: in some sense that's kind like what I meant.. there's no parsed packet structure, just accessors for the fields 17:23:56 adeht: we'll see if I really do that or if I start to enjoy C hacking :) 17:24:05 it really gets funky when I use 3G in a train 17:24:17 with 200km/h 17:24:22 joswig: yeah :) 17:24:33 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:08 nowadays they offer 3g 'repeaters' in the train and in some newer ones also WLAN 17:25:14 generally I'm quite happy with the 3G I have here in Switzerland, but I see it starting to compete with DSL soon and for that it really has to improve 17:25:40 on the train in .ch I am frequently hopping cells and getting bumped down to EDGE etc. 17:26:16 but on a good day in the city I get 2-4Mbps through my iphone 17:26:25 (downstream) 17:27:26 you could sell it as a piece of software running on the phone (android, iphone) ? 17:28:42 I was thinking that soon many computers will be very small, like iphone size with WLAN 17:28:55 joswig: yeah, I've tested that setup, it just gets installed as a VPN connection in the iphone and works fine. I'm on a different track at the moment though 17:29:02 what would be the smallest and affordable thing to run Lisp? 17:29:33 I see that there are some small computers that you plug into a power outlet, with WLAN etc. 17:29:44 for like $100 17:29:58 gumstix and arduino both seem quite cool in different ways 17:33:18 http://www.plugcomputer.org/ 17:33:24 marvell plug computer 17:33:32 runs on ARM 17:34:15 http://www.dvhardware.net/article33584.html 17:35:21 ... I see where this is going, you're going to try and get me to continue with SBCL/ARM, aren't you? 17:36:01 nyef: hmpf, that was too obvious, wasn't it? 17:36:25 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:36:29 ;-) 17:37:12 But just think about it, a capable ARM, enough RAM and some Flash memory plus an USB port for more memory 17:37:30 if that would not be enough to run SBCL, the I don't know 17:37:46 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:52 I'm actually thinking "I just got given a USB printer and I need to share it on the local network, so my NSLU2 is going to be permanently online soon..." 17:38:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:38:27 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@voyager.visitor.congress.ccc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:45 32MB RAM? 17:38:56 There's always swap space. 17:39:53 I expect these plug computers to get tiny rechargeble batteries and a solar panel 17:40:13 linux can be persuaded to swap over ethernet virtual disk 17:40:30 over 3G ;-) 17:40:54 that, is a classic case of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should." 17:41:26 merl15 [n=merl@80-121-54-251.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:41:31 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:41:50 (I've done it on an embedded arm platform in order to compile natively using gcc) 17:42:12 -!- madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has quit ["leaving"] 17:45:07 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 17:45:22 housel: Over 3G? 17:45:32 no :-) 17:46:15 options for editing on a remote machine: (a) ssh there and run Emacs (b) nfs'alike e.g. fuse sshfs (c) emacs remote file editing support. any others? none of those make me very happy 17:46:42 (d) ssh there and run vi. 17:46:54 -!- astalla [n=astalla@net-93-149-132-176.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:46:56 emacs + tramp is pretty transparent once it is set up. 17:47:00 currently I have all my sources and compilers on a server and I'm running a local Carbon Emacs 17:47:22 lukego: I was running exactly that setup while I was out west this fall. 17:47:28 lukego: rsync/dvcs. 17:47:33 Fade: yeah but then I suppose I can't grep in emacs 17:48:01 you do end up keeping the terminal with the ssh tunnel handy for such things. 17:48:35 I'm using sshfs right now which is like nfs-over-ssh. but it hangs occasionally and seems to somehow make emacs run slow 17:48:49 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:48:53 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 17:49:22 for remote dev, tramp was the best sol'n I found. 17:49:28 if you find something better, let me know. :) 17:49:36 lukego: I find (a) tolerable if there is not too much latency. what kind of latency is your connection to the remote server? 17:49:36 -!- Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:44 Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:50:06 gonzojive: latency is fine. I just miss the cute OSX emacs frontend :) 17:50:09 Actually, for a remote server, I find ssh+screen+emacs to be the best combination. 17:50:35 gonzojive: and I don't think I've ever managed to make my keymap work exactly how I want (basically: Command is Meta) in terminal programs 17:50:51 the osx terminal progs are all shite. 17:51:00 iterm is the closest to useful. 17:51:00 this is unfortunate. 17:51:20 that is the reason why I went with emacs + tramp to a remote swank. 17:51:29 the terminals were eating my emacs key bindings. 17:51:51 which is obviously just not going to fly. 17:52:25 Oh, right, keybindings. I was going to add DontZap to my X11 config. 17:52:28 I agree with nyef. i also use start-stop-lisp-daemon for managing the server 17:52:45 Preferably before I manage to kill my X again doing a delete-sexp-backwards. 17:53:32 I particularly like how M-w had a lovely tendency to delete my frame. ;) 17:54:44 s/frame/terminal 17:55:02 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:55:12 astalla [n=astalla@net-93-149-132-134.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:55:35 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:55:38 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 17:56:12 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:57:29 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:06 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:58:52 HG` [n=HG@xdslef111.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:29 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:00:42 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:15 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:03:29 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 18:04:19 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:50 I've got clbuild installed and added /clbuild/systems to asdf:*central-registry* in my ~/.sbclrc, then i ran "./clbuild update cl-who" and i got a cl-who.asd in clbuild/systems, but i always get a "missing component" error when i try "(asdf:operate 'asdf:compile-op :cl-who)" any tipps? 18:07:03 phaer: how exactly did you add it to *central-registry*? (show the code?) 18:07:31 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:42 Xach: (require :asdf) (push "/home/phaer/sources/lisp/cbuild/systems/" asdf:*central-registry*) 18:08:11 really cbuild or clbuild? 18:08:12 "clbuild lisp" ignores ~/.sbclrc by default. 18:08:31 lichtblau: really cbuild... thanks :) 18:08:32 Fade: if he was starting through clbuild, he wouldn't need to set the c-r himself 18:08:40 ah right. 18:08:49 *Fade* shuts the pie hole until the coffee kicks in. 18:09:25 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:11:43 got it working, was just the wrong path... 18:12:00 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:12:09 uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:35 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 18:16:16 Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:18:02 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:18:19 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:20:03 any last-minute problems with sbcl-almost-1.0.34? 18:20:24 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:58 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-110-190.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:22:53 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:24:39 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:45 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:58 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:30:02 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:31:26 -!- uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:33:50 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:34:15 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 18:34:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:01 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-lqcrqfikyssxwnkd] has joined #lisp 18:37:21 *luis* kicks off a win32 build 18:38:42 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-172.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:55 slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0A403.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:24 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:33 Ah. gcc: The -mno-cygwin flag has been removed; use a mingw-targeted cross-compiler. 18:40:07 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:10 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:40:26 we're trying to decide how to handle Out-Of-Memory and Stack-Overflow conditions in ABCL. How do other implementations handle this kind of situation? do they roll back to a certain well defined point? Do they keep a memory "reserve" to make sure they have some left for OOM processing? 18:42:06 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 18:42:27 ehu: someone did a survey of that 18:42:32 Is compiling under cygwin supported? Any extra steps necessary? 18:42:45 ehu: http://blo.udoidio.info/2008/10/out-of-memory-sad-case.html 18:42:53 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-216.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:43:16 luis: I build under cygwin, but the -mno-cygwin flag being removed is new to me. 18:44:36 xach: thanks! did SBCL change since that? 18:44:48 ehu: don't know. lichtblau might. 18:44:51 Joreji [n=thomas@43-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:44:57 -!- JonSmith [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:44:58 nyef: I upgraded to cygwin 1.7.1 recently 18:46:00 gcc (GCC) 4.3.4 20090804 (release) 1 18:46:44 gcc (GCC) 3.4.4 (cygming special, gdc 0.12, using dmd 0.125) 18:47:04 gcc 3.x seems to accept the flag, yeah 18:47:37 Maybe we should just switch to MSVC? >:-) 18:47:48 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@p5B0C7C0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:48:02 Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:48:43 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:04 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:50:31 hmm, any clue how to the suggested cross-compilation? 18:51:48 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:05 I should have a mingw32-gcc executable but I can't find it. 18:58:30 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:55 lithper1 [n=chatzill@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:01 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-216.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [No route to host] 19:05:13 pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has joined #lisp 19:05:56 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:08:49 yates [n=yates@rrcs-70-62-108-202.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:21 for an out-of-memory situation it would be fine to get an error and have a REPL, sometimes it might be useful to set some variables to NIL, or similar and get some free memory during GC 19:10:39 GC can consume memory too 19:11:20 is there a cl command to "list" a function's definition? 19:11:31 one that was loaded? 19:11:46 clhs function-lambda-expression 19:11:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm 19:11:55 clhs edit 19:11:55 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for edit. 19:11:56 too 19:12:00 (or what's it called?) 19:12:04 stassats, true, use an in-place GC then 19:12:05 clhs ed 19:12:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ed.htm 19:12:07 if possible 19:14:10 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:36 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 19:15:16 sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:17:49 ehu: my comment on that blog entry is still accurate. The SBCL patch has improved a bit since then, I haven't committed it. 19:19:04 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:19:21 But to respond to your original ABCL-related question: 19:19:38 I think that ABCL is in the best position among all available CLs here, because the VM already supports a reliable OutOfMemoryError, which cannot be said about other CL runtimes AFAIK. 19:21:47 milanj [n=milan@93.86.241.124] has joined #lisp 19:21:57 I think one issue if you're trying to write test cases, or are trying to prove that OutOfMemoryError handling is actually safe, will be that Lisp errors won't help you much, considering that handler-bind can continue to allocate memory before the stack has been unwound. 19:22:04 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslef111.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:09 Where "safe" means that a process can recover from the out-of-memory situation provided that parts of the heap turn into garbage because of the unwinding of the stack. 19:22:52 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-183-167.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:23:33 Joreji [n=thomas@43-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:24:08 One reasonably lispy solution might be to say that OutOfMemoryError turns into a lisp THROW of an OUT-OF-MEMORY tag, and anyone interested in recovering from it needs to CATCH that tag in a suitable place. 19:25:20 nyef: how does look to you? Scavenged memory regions and mark/swept regions (as lisp objects or due to SAPs). 19:25:28 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:27:11 or if that isn't possible because there is no suitable place for a try { } catch (OutOfMemoryError) { throwTheTag() }, then the catch idiom itself would have to be replaced by a magic CATCHING-OUT-OF-MEMORY macro that would compile into a try{}catch 19:27:41 what do other JVM languages do with that error? 19:27:54 pkhuong: why is this a foreign heap thing? What's the use case? 19:28:40 luis: It's simpler to debug when it's a foreign heap thing ;) 19:29:08 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:29:58 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:10 For scavenged foreign regions, the use case would be stuff like a mmaped heap or a binary serialiser (I need something like that) 19:31:34 And with mark/sweep, well, it should simplify API design by allowing you to pass blocks of foreign memory around more freely, etc. 19:33:42 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Input/output error] 19:35:01 Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:26 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8A19.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:36:29 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:54 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-138-152.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:39:28 there was a mechanism for getting packages like slime (for emacs) - what was it called? 19:39:33 (under linux)? 19:41:01 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:41:27 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 19:41:42 drewc pasted "Continuation Monad + ContextL = Dynamic Web" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92830 19:44:22 mikezor: tell yates about clbuild 19:44:26 oops 19:44:32 minion: tell yates about clbuild 19:44:33 yates: please look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 19:44:45 mikezor: sorry, you look like a bot 19:45:37 benny [n=benny@i577A8A19.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:43 yeah - that was it - thanks stassats 19:45:53 lichtblau: we're currently looking at adding to handler-bind the behaviour to catch and translate to lisp conditions both OutOfMemoryError and StackOverflowError 19:46:48 but that would mean that the error would be signalled after the stack is unwound 19:47:21 to the first handler-bind block 19:47:35 (which might be ignore-errors or handler-case too) 19:48:08 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:50:04 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:51:03 that's sounds like a good compromise 19:51:10 s/'s// 19:51:47 mjsor [n=mjsor@67-42-51-15.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:28 pkhuong: but how are these regions managed on the lisp side? 19:53:31 lichtblau: do you know of any part of the hyperspec that would disallow that behaviour? 19:53:53 luis: Maybe it's a -m option? 19:54:06 lichtblau: I'm seeing only very vague definitions regarding the dynamic environment with respect to handler-bind and restart-bind 19:54:17 luis: managed how? By the GC? 19:54:43 pkhuong: I mean, can you CONS in those regions for example? 19:55:01 not directly right now. You'd have to know exactly how to lay things out. 19:55:07 Heh. WITH-THREAD-ALLOCATION-REGION ? 19:55:28 but nothing explicit about the exact call-nesting location where execution should be done 19:55:51 nyef: yeah, also something like erlang's memory management crossed my mind, 19:57:21 ehu: I'm not a language lawyer... But I think it's a good solution. 19:57:41 HANDLER-BINDs workings are specifying rather clearly, but whether the compiler takes that opportunity to insert an error-to-condition conversion point should be only the implementation's business. After all, until that conversion has happened, Common Lisp doesn't really know that the error exists in the first place. 19:57:48 demmeln [n=Adium@p5B0C7C0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:54 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-186-254.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:26 luis: there's a lot of `similar' functionality there, most of which is useful without being able to transparently cons there. 19:58:27 If SBCL can stick an x86-specific FLOAT-WAIT into HANDLER-BIND, then ABCL can wrap a try {} catch around its body forms. 19:58:44 -!- Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:58:45 ;-) 19:58:51 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:28 Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:36 ;-) 20:00:01 luis: did you manage to build in the end, or did you give up? :-) 20:00:02 astalla: looks like this is a sensible road, if not just a practical solution 20:00:02 static-vectors could use it, for instance. 20:01:31 how do i install slime for all users? 20:01:46 Guthur pasted "with-foreign-objects macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92832 20:02:06 does anything look wrong? 20:03:50 Krystof: yes, but with gcc 3.x 20:03:51 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:04:04 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-172.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:04:12 Joreji [n=thomas@43-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:05:41 aintme [n=user@72.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:07:55 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-186-254.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:08:00 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-159.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:08:38 luis: that's fine 20:08:52 and it sort of works? 20:09:17 luis` [n=user@240.56.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:09:52 actually, I don't mind 20:09:58 Krystof: I was at work so I didn't test it very much. But it started. :) 20:10:03 that's good enough 20:10:30 The sb-simple-streams contrib failed to compile. (or was it the tests?) 20:11:05 Guthur: sounds like it'd be more straightforward to implement that on top of cffi:with-foreign-objects 20:11:16 I am not surprised by that; I think they still assume that mmap() exists 20:12:46 -!- yates [n=yates@rrcs-70-62-108-202.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 20:13:32 luis` there is no with-foreign-objects 20:14:37 Guthur: yes, there is. 20:15:31 umm not in the documentation. there is with-foreign-object 20:15:59 -!- konr` is now known as konr 20:16:15 http://l1sp.org/cffi/with-foreign-objects 20:16:43 as you see that is actually with-foreign-object 20:16:59 not sure where the s in the url comes from 20:17:08 i see both 20:17:11 oh wait sorry my bad 20:17:18 cool cheers 20:18:04 Guthur: but you're quite correct that it's not very clear in the documentation. It's missing from the "dictionary" listings. 20:18:23 It's in the index though. 20:18:38 Guthur: APROPOS is your friend, btw. 20:18:39 i was wondering it seemed such an obvious use case 20:19:22 this is great though, thanks again for pointing it out 20:19:48 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:03 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 20:21:38 smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:36 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@p5B0C7C0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:25:10 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:05 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["leaving"] 20:26:19 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:19 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:29:53 -!- Krystof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.34 20:30:07 ok, please all release new stuff to knock that off the /topic this month 20:30:46 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:08 go go nyef! (: 20:31:15 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.3.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:36 Who gets to update www.sbcl.org? 20:31:40 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:56 heh. Yeah, also, you can commit stuff to CVS. I would like to see relocation, lazy allocation, the block compiler, llvm and hemlock land this month 20:32:03 Xach: I'm on it 20:32:13 it's still not quite scripted 20:33:01 Krystof: do you have an Erdös number? 20:33:20 3, I believe 20:33:23 hmm. will sbcl go with LLVM in the future or is it just a test/hack? 20:33:35 hypno: attend sbcl10 and find out 20:33:36 no, wait 20:34:04 Oh, neat. 20:34:33 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 20:34:42 ] 20:35:57 Athas: I'm afraid that doesn't mean yours is 4, really 20:36:02 only stuff that's indexed by the AMS counts 20:36:18 wait, mine might be 4; Edi's is 3 20:36:20 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9796.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:36:57 Krystof: I am aware, I was just curious about how removed I am. 20:37:10 no, even 5 20:37:22 I misremembered; I am quite far away 20:37:25 ryepup1: how big is the heatmap png you're making? 20:37:49 and enter "Rhodes, C S" for me 20:38:01 Xach: 715px by 400px right now 20:38:10 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@67-42-51-15.eugn.qwest.net] has quit [] 20:38:41 trying out a zpng version now, spending too much time remembering math 20:42:18 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:44 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:49 cffi is where the action is these days? 20:47:19 -!- aintme [n=user@72.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 20:47:48 lukego: the ffi action, fer sure 20:52:09 do we use the groveller or do stuff ourselves? 20:53:50 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-154.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:55:10 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-154.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:47 there, even the website is updated 20:56:53 <_deepfire> Ok, 220+ modules described in desire's definitions and rolling through buildbot. 20:58:11 lukego: I do stuff by hand as needed, SWIG and Verrazano seem to be popular choices for auto-generated bindings. 20:58:16 antifuchs: can we have an updated manual upload at some point? 20:58:29 lukego: cffi is portable; you don't want that 20:58:53 Krystof :-) 20:59:18 Adamant [n=Adamant@68.54.179.181] has joined #lisp 21:02:05 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:02:24 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:47 -!- phaer [i=phaer@chello084112190080.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0"] 21:07:58 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:12:03 dlowe [n=dlowe@genkt-056-048.t-mobile.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:14:41 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:16:57 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:18 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177120052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:23 -!- Younder [n=jthing@233.159.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:19:15 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-233.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:19:37 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has quit ["Client Quit"] 21:20:44 -!- smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:26:42 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:26:56 minion: memo for gigamonkey: I just read http://www.gigamonkeys.com/blog/2009/09/17/kindle-coders-at-work.html and I call bullshit - the only difference from classic Mobireader is the DRM used, and preparing a MobiReader file for publication is at most a few hours for complex structuree. I guess that either it's Amazon's marketing play or something like that. Also, Kindle sucks ;-) 21:26:56 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 21:27:36 -!- lithper1 [n=chatzill@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:50 madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has joined #lisp 21:30:01 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 21:30:34 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-lqcrqfikyssxwnkd] has left #lisp 21:30:49 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8A19.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:26 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:36 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:37:33 n2kra [n=n2kra@pool-173-63-246-135.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:43 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-074-232-249-027.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:40:11 benny [n=benny@i577A8A19.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:40:42 Krystof: does that mean llvm might get a chance in SBCL? Cause I didn't though so... 21:40:49 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:42:56 p_l: That might be up for discussion once there's something fairly useful. I guess the most probable option is an optional backend available post-bootstrap. I'm not too comfortable with having llvm as a hard dependency. 21:42:58 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:44:37 pkhuong: it could be interesting to have a way to compile current C code as small library to be linked by LLVM for GC etc. and have compiler output LLVM data while diumping an image... 21:44:41 *dumping 21:44:54 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:45:57 so that you can dump the whole image as LLVM opcodes, run the whole suite on it and get an executable 21:46:31 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-10-158.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:47:28 p_l: I would encourage you to look at foom's work in progress tree, linked from http://sbcl10.sbcl.org/ 21:47:34 and contribute and participate 21:48:03 these things do not happen on their own 21:48:08 p_l: the runtime is pretty hairy. Get the backend up to usefulness, and deal with delivery then. 21:48:22 heh. The closest I've got so far to LLVM and CL was looking over at how to integrate OpenCL into CL and thinking about compiling ECL with LLVM 21:50:35 smanek [n=smanek@71.147.48.251] has joined #lisp 21:51:06 So...I noticed that SBCL isn't using TLS primitives on linux, it's still using pthread_getspecific 21:51:36 This is fortunate for me, since LLVM's TLS support is busted in the JIT (works for ahead-of-time compilation), but seems like a bad thing generally. :) 21:51:56 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 21:55:19 pr [n=pr@p579CA73F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:13 Jabberwock [n=jens@port-9796.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 21:57:45 foom: on x86-64? Nearly everything goes through a dedicated register. 21:58:10 pkhuong: right, R12. 21:59:41 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:24 Joreji [n=thomas@43-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:01:10 I am slightly disappointed that sbcl10 isn't in the first page of google for "sbcl llvm" 22:01:27 having said that, foom's tree is, so Mission Accomplished I suppose 22:01:59 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:02:05 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:02:31 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:06:51 Joreji_ [n=thomas@43-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:09:03 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:09:53 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:22 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:45 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:09 francogrex [n=user@91.180.221.53] has joined #lisp 22:16:20 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 22:16:41 antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:14 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 22:17:38 SBCL on LLVM sounds cool. That lets you target a zillion platforms, right? 22:17:50 -!- antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:44 antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:36 -!- antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:46 tic: 5-6? 22:20:10 anyone knows of a way to change system path from within CL? 22:20:19 hmm... I guess I could cooperate a little with LLVM integration efforts for my BPL (Bastard Programming Language), since all it has as goals is a nice framework for integrated assembler with macros and some basic optimizations ... 22:20:22 francogrex: system path? 22:20:57 francogrex: for Windows? I suspect you have to talk with registry, so use CFFI and hook into registry paths to edit apriopriate keys for current user 22:21:40 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:22:01 francogrex: mind you, modifying path for user requires relogin, iirc. Of course child processes can have the path changed just like on Unix, with setenv-equivalent before running it (If I recall everything right) 22:22:30 stassats, P_l: yes for windows. ok then it's cffi; I'll ask then this question at windows programming is more appropriate i guess. 22:22:48 On CLisp, :Win32 directory functions default to registry ? 22:23:09 p_l: I intend to modify it only temporarily as long as the CL program runs 22:23:34 -!- merl15 [n=merl@80-121-54-251.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:23:48 because it need libraries to be stored in the path, so i guss modifying the path for every user permamanetly is not desitable 22:23:51 francogrex: Do you want to locally change the PATH variable for child processes? Then just straight setenv, though you'll have to check the equivalent call on windows or check if your CL implementation doesn't cover it already (or link with posix.dll, I guess) 22:23:53 desirable 22:24:16 merl15 [n=merl@80-121-4-189.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:24:28 very cool http://blog.postabon.com/a-simple-lisp-webapp-for-beginners 22:24:31 francogrex: why not specify the path to libraries in initializiation code? 22:24:39 saw it on hackernews today 22:25:21 francogrex: if it's intended to be a redistributable package for use in a company, making a MSI installer with apriopriate functions to set the path (it's included in the docs iirc) would be actually better choice 22:27:23 pkhuong, that's about a zillion. :-) 22:27:54 p_l: yes an setup is my next option (wher I would pump the libraries into their /windows/system32 flders 22:28:34 p_l: my first opyion is that I keep the libraries on a location on an accessible network drive and somehow direct the "path" of their PC to it 22:28:35 wtf is lichtblau's "avm2" tree? 22:28:53 francogrex: why can't they be in app's directory? 22:29:06 adobe virtual machine 2? 22:29:08 p_l: that way I distribute only the applications without the libraries 22:29:10 francogrex: IIRC ./ relative to application is still in default path 22:29:45 francogrex: and if you're worried about dll hell, upgrade to NT6.x and use SxS ;-) 22:29:54 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:30:04 p_l: because I want to distribute one file (excel) that links to a CL fas file (ideally stored on a network drive for all users) 22:30:12 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:36 francogrex: use a mount script? 22:31:17 mount script? that's sorta new to me. 22:31:32 Krystof: IIRC a backend for Adobe's Actionscript Virtual Machine 22:31:50 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:32:02 something like cmd: path=\\networkdrive1\ 22:33:44 Krystof: AVM2 is the virtual machine (re)written for Flash 9 22:33:48 francogrex: have alogin script mount a network drive in correct place, maybe even as a directory 22:33:53 Wow. I just ran slime-macroexpand-again in my source buffer by accident and I seem to have obliterated the last hours work. 22:34:20 austinh: undo! 22:34:27 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-118-176-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:29 francogrex: mind you, all of that relies on using NT with NTFS, cause any other windows setup is even more of a disaster waiting to happen - it's a disaster already 22:35:07 p_l: ok thanks; I'll pursue this further; 22:35:40 pkhuong: Undo wouldn't do anything. I could've saved myself a little work if I would've just killed the buffer and lost unsaved changes, but instead I got greedy and tried to recover everything and now I'm back to my last git check-in. 22:36:04 http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/dir-key.html 22:36:30 Oh, I need to do some LDAP testing 22:36:57 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.180.221.53] has left #lisp 22:42:18 Regenschein [n=ford@gssn-4d007c39.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:38 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 22:42:38 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:12 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 22:44:39 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9796.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:44:44 francogrex [n=user@91.180.221.53] has joined #lisp 22:45:10 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.46.66] has joined #lisp 22:45:36 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@port-9796.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:34 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.46.66] has left #lisp 22:49:29 antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:00 antoni` [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:43 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@genkt-056-048.t-mobile.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:51:50 -!- antoni` [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:38 phaer [i=phaer@chello084112190080.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:53:25 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.255.237] has joined #lisp 22:53:53 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:26 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 22:57:42 Okay, I think that's all the SBCL committage I'm going to do tonight. 22:58:33 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:38 -!- antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:59:25 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:00:23 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:00:54 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9796.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 23:01:05 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.180.221.53] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:12 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:34 antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:01 http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/foo.txt 23:13:14 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 23:13:18 (list of sbcl branches in repositories along with last-modified-time) 23:13:39 there are probably multiple ways of making this more useful 23:15:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:47 descriptions, most importantly. :) 23:16:28 yes 23:16:29 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:16:52 also a web coder 23:16:57 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:17:01 for now it is bedtime 23:17:13 please make it so that when I wake up we have a marvellous infrastructure 23:17:41 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:17:44 christmas is over 23:18:11 stassats: lucky me, we give presents on new year's. 23:18:22 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 23:19:30 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:32 I am slightly baffled by things like pkhuong's jump-table-bis which shows commits in the last two weeks, yet seem to be straight branches from master with no new content 23:19:49 Krystof: branch, work, and stash. 23:20:05 It was created two weeks ago. 23:20:54 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:43 pkhuong: same here, though in Russia christmass will only be at the 7th january 23:22:20 pr_ [n=pr@p579CAE4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:32 pkhuong: correct me if I'm wrong, but your stash and working tree aren't reflected on repo.or.cz, right? 23:22:41 only the commits. 23:22:43 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:23:18 right. So... why push that branch? Is it just that everything is pushed by default? 23:23:40 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:23:59 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:23:59 I push everything. 23:24:07 push --mirror. 23:24:24 right, except that that doesn't mirror your stash :-) 23:24:35 such is life (: 23:24:35 so you could still lose everything to a disk crash or something 23:24:56 time machine! 23:25:03 ha 23:25:27 ok, I'm still looking for someone to write recipes for sbcl development management 23:25:35 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:25:58 at some point I would like to finish one of my actual development lines :-) 23:26:16 Krystof, I should probably finish up my attempt at some point... >_> 23:27:04 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CAE4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:27:09 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0A403.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:27:10 pr [n=pr@p579CAE4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:13 you're still interested in a git example, right? 23:28:22 Adlai: yes, just a single way that works most of the time. People with special requirements can figure it out themselves. 23:29:03 hmm, that's true too -- a quick guide can leave out the corner cases, because you don't encounter the corner cases unless you seek them out. 23:29:34 teiresias [n=user@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 23:30:06 pkhuong, just looking at your recent blog post: "Kreuter reported that the largest universe hed seen was 8k elements in an email." <= is that "8k elements in an email", or "Kreuter reported ... in an email" ? 23:30:15 (I think the latter) 23:31:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.255.237] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:31:57 *p_l* wonders if SBCL or CCL would compile under wine 23:32:04 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:33:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:18 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:34:48 Apparently I can install mingw and even Windows 7 SDK under wine and use it to compile programs O_o 23:37:46 p_l: SBCL is unlikely to function under wine for two reasons. One is the fixed memory map. The other is that wine has long not done the right thing with breakpoints, and given how long it hasn't done the right thing (and there been an entry in their test suite to prove it), I doubt that it since has been fixed. 23:39:09 -!- antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:04 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:25 nyef: yeah, but I could probably get ECL and *maybe* CCL working 23:40:43 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.74.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:52 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42:21 corman or clozure ? 23:42:37 for delivering an app on windows (as opposed to devving), would you recommend ECL or CCL? 23:42:48 clozure. I guess I could test Corman as well 23:43:05 Adlai: Depends on the app and how well did you check it. IIRC ECL can be fussy and harder to debug 23:43:58 p_l, I'll probably stick to CCL in that case. 23:44:01 otoh, ECL, when built properly, will create easily executables that will fit nicely into win32/64 ecosystem 23:44:10 either one is preferable to Ruby 23:45:01 the only nice thing I've encountered about Ruby is that you can specify hashtable defaults on a per-hashtable basis, rather than a per-lookup basis... yet you can do much more in CL after putting in a slight amount of work, so it doesn't really count. 23:45:08 -!- merl15 [n=merl@80-121-4-189.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:45:16 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:28 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 23:45:32 Adlai: also, CCL will require an extra launcher code and delivering two images all the time 23:45:51 p_l, why two images? why extra launcher code? 23:46:06 32 / 62 23:46:10 64 23:46:11 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:21 oh, I don't think this will be running on any 64bit windows systems. 23:46:30 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:46:32 (of course I can never know in advance) 23:46:56 but yeah, maybe this is a good reason for using ECL for delivery. 23:47:05 a scary number of consumer machines are 64bit 23:47:18 n2kra, this would 23:47:41 this would (right now) just be for a few other people in my office, and right now they're just using XP. 23:48:12 <[df]> how does ECL get around that? 23:48:33 maybe the couldn't get vista running OK in 3G 23:49:15 Adlai: IActually half of the machines in my home that use windows use win64, and of the two that use 32bit one is a Pentium III machine and the other is a work-supplied laptop 23:49:16 Guest837` [n=user@72.14.228.137] has joined #lisp 23:49:28 -!- madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has quit ["leaving"] 23:49:53 n2kra: or maybe it's logical path to go not to mention the fact that MS wants to move everything to x64 23:50:21 heh, ok. We'll see, I might still choose CCL anyways just because I'm already familiar with it. (I've barely used ECL) 23:50:53 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:55 [df]: ECL generates a C/C++ source code for yourapplication and then compiles it. It also has some bytecode compiler/interpreter that you can use 23:51:33 konr [n=user@189.96.74.227] has joined #lisp 23:51:39 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:51:58 [df]: also, it's resilient towards memory management architecture of the target OS, cause no vendor wants to break Boehm GC :D 23:52:02 <[df]> p_l: but surely to deliver it you have to compile the source to a 32 or 64 bit binary? 23:52:30 p 23:52:33 [df]: the 32bit binary will happily run on win64 with WoW64 23:52:37 aaagghghhhh 23:52:39 *Adlai* curses his keyboard 23:52:49 p_l, do I need MSVC to run ECL on windows? 23:52:59 *Adlai* exposes his supreme ignorance and hides 23:53:24 -!- smanek [n=smanek@71.147.48.251] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:53:26 <[df]> I don't understand why the situation is different for CCL 23:53:29 Adlai: no, but I only used it with Windows SDK - but it should compile with mingw, that's how francogrex is using it 23:53:57 -!- sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:54:14 [df]: CCL and SBCL use custom GC with custom internal ABI etc. Basically, their internals are quite different from what a "normal" app looks like to any OS 23:54:21 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.74.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:02 [df]: the closest comparison would be Java and .NET, both having much bigger development teams with much more funding 23:55:14 <[df]> so 32 bit CCL/SBCL would have issues running under 64 bit windows (or other OS)? 23:55:25 if you push 32bit tricks hard enough wow64 will break 23:56:05 [df]: possibly. AFAIK 32bit SBCL runs on Win64, however there's no win64 support. CCL otoh actually recommends win64 as the more stable platform 23:56:05 <[df]> ok, got it 23:56:35 but because of some issues, CCL x86 breaks on wow64 23:56:59 it can be fixed with small launcher binary that checks OS architecture 23:57:08 or even with MSI installer 23:57:57 <[df]> so I guess wow64 is a hack similar to having a 32-bit libc available on a 64-bit linux system? 23:58:25 [df]: neither is actually a hack 23:58:53 though Linux distors never really got multilib/multiarch working properly 23:59:00 plage [n=user@203.113.164.206] has joined #lisp 23:59:04 Good morning! 23:59:34 (compared with Solaris, where I install once and it will boot 32bit or 64bit depending on hw, including supplying proper binaries) 23:59:40 plage: morning!