00:00:59 JonSmith [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:00 sctb [n=sctb@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:12 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.33.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:02:04 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@69.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:02:10 plage [n=user@123.19.45.41] has joined #lisp 00:02:21 Good morning! 00:02:31 jmbr [n=jmbr@63.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 00:02:37 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:03:54 hello plage 00:05:53 iirc shouldn't anything that you can spare an address register on support TLS? 00:05:53 What's up? 00:06:23 gah, why is it the 21st century and there's /still/ no sensible cross-language remote procedure call protocol? 00:06:36 plage: for me, study... so it's a bit boring here :) 00:06:41 p_l: generally the limiting factor is making that register part of the platform ABI. 00:06:45 plage: what will your day bring? 00:07:01 madnificent: A bit of work, lots of rest. 00:07:02 rpg: corba + CL ? 00:07:04 well, that's enough of monday for me. nite folks. 00:07:10 good night Fade 00:07:16 joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:31 plage: do you have a decent databases departement in bordeaux? 00:07:37 I think there must be at least two computer programs in the world that use CORBA ;-) 00:07:38 rpg: unfortunately, the HTTP won over 00:07:52 antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:57 -!- antoni` [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:00 there's lots of cross-language RPC standards! 00:08:01 madnificent: Nope. 00:08:21 XMLRPC, SOAP, JSON, CORBA, uh...and more! 00:08:22 The fact that /both/ Gnome /and/ KDE ripped out CORBA and replaced it is not confidence-inspiring... 00:08:36 JSON seems most popular these days 00:08:40 plage: do you know any university that does have it? 00:08:42 also, if you want to look for CORBA-based apps, look for apps developed with Borland tools - Borland enterprise-grade tools were quite heavy on COBRA for multi-tier apps 00:08:54 madnificent: Auckland. 00:08:59 foom: yes --- it's just that to contol a /local/ CL application, running a web server seems like a /lot/ of bloat. 00:09:16 rpg: you can do JSON over a raw tcp socket: you don't need HTTP. 00:09:34 foom: Yeah, but I still need to write the multi-threading guck on the CL side... 00:09:49 multi-threading guck? 00:09:59 rpg: GNOME was found to be "slightly" overweight, at least compared to D-Bus, especially since a lot of advanced stuff never became reality, while KDE's D-Cop was already similar (and IMHO saner) and they jumped for interoperability 00:10:22 plage: that's far away, but thanks :) 00:10:24 foom: Read the socket, lock the data structures on the CL side, blat the stuff onto the socket, unlock the main process, ... 00:10:45 foom: not rocket science, but a lot of bloat and very tricky to boot... 00:11:02 That doesn't sound like your problem is cross-language RPC standards, but finding a good CL RPC library. 00:11:12 foom: yup. 00:11:24 I'm just grumpy because it seems like a lot of us need to write the same code over and over. 00:11:33 I think there's a CL json library 00:11:43 nyef annotated #92753 "traps and policy" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92753#2 00:11:47 if not, it'd be the only language that doesn't have one. :) 00:11:56 minion: cl-json? 00:11:57 cl-json: cl-json is a Lisp parser and generator for the JSON data-interchange format (An alternative to XML suitable for Web development with JavaScript. http://www.cliki.net/cl-json 00:11:58 foom: Yes, but that still leaves the socket management as an exercise to the reader.... 00:12:01 Guess tehre isn't. 00:12:44 there's at least one other json for CL.... 00:12:46 rpg: shrug, CL's support for socket servers is nonexistent. There's libraries for that too. :) 00:13:14 But which one should you use? ...got me. 00:13:15 foom: Yup. I just wish there was something like ACL's jlinker for this stuff.... 00:13:28 ... I'm not seeing anything useful here. 00:13:53 foom: That manages the socket for you, which is a pretty huge convenience..... 00:14:24 Okay, so it's clearly not the traps or policy. 00:14:53 The economics of my job means that I end up intermittently writing a new crap CL server, and never get to the point of writing a good one.... 00:15:17 joubert_ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:18 -!- dalton [n=user5442@187-27-229-181.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["eject"] 00:15:20 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Abort, Retry, Fail?"] 00:15:27 -!- tmitt [i=seg@wizardly.us] has left #lisp 00:15:41 oh, well. such are the hazards of contracting. Have to do another one. Sorry to bother you all.... 00:15:47 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.90.1"] 00:15:49 I've never really tried to do this in CL, but it's not very hard in a language like python, so surely it's just a matter of finding the right socket server library. 00:17:55 foom: like iolib? 00:18:11 foom: The problem is the synchronization of the "discussion" over the socket with your own code, and the translation of socket reads into procedure calls and back again. 00:18:38 foom: it's not rocket science, but it's not something I have a large appetite for doing, either. 00:18:45 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:26 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:19:27 -!- joubert_ is now known as joubert 00:19:51 foom: right now I pay the bloat penalty and use a web server, because the page-serve --> procedure call translation is something everyone does these days, and there's reasonably good support on both ends of the pipe. 00:20:53 still, web server + json or xml marshaling and demarshaling, even with web support, is a PiTA compared to the kind of abstraction something like Franz's jlinker gives you.... 00:21:16 *rpg* really needs to move from xmls to cxml, too... 00:21:51 my client is javascript-based (firefox) and if anyone wants a mistake to avoid, don't use xml; use json... 00:22:20 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7364ce.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:35 *rpg* may be sick enough to see if he can make a CL program into an XPCOM component... 00:22:46 how is json any better than xml 00:23:00 I mean compared to e.g. s-expressions 00:23:08 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:11 -!- JonSmith [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:13 soupdragon: Less redundancy, easier to parse by code (particularly javascript code), etc. 00:23:17 soupdragon: a) much simpler, b) you don't need a parser when your client is in javascript 00:23:19 soupdragon: less bloat, simplicity rather than complexity, is kind of native format for JavaScript. Doesn't beat S-Exps, though 00:23:52 lets you do hacks like JSONP for cross-site scripting. 00:23:57 foom: you'd better still use a parser.... it tends to have similar problems as #.(....) in file you (read) 00:24:11 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1CB66.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:24:18 p_l: depends on if you trust your webserver or not. 00:24:22 p_l: oftentimes you do 00:24:24 soupdragon: json gives you list/vector structures, which you have to implement yourself in XML... 00:24:30 <_3b> p_l: recent browsers have native parsers too 00:25:10 Possibly new E4X JavaScript thingie will make XML just as easy to work with on the JS side.... 00:25:32 I will go off to dinner now, rather than lead this conversation any further into off-topicness... 00:25:38 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:26:03 Too bad XML is just a pain to work with generally... 00:27:39 yeah, XML really is a terrible terrible thing. 00:28:04 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:10 That it even requires you to think "should I make this an attribute or a subelement" when you're designing an API is a real pain in the ass. 00:29:06 *madnificent* never understood how XML could've gotten big 00:29:27 -!- antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:44 open tag/close tag << that's only there to allow for errors. attribute vs element << the difference in meaning is not even defined after all these years 00:29:44 WTF? It's an -intermittent- failure of thest two bug-372 cases? 00:30:09 and if you want to see *real* pain, check out something like XMPP, which embeds client-specified XML in an XML framing protocol 00:32:18 you get fun things like if you send invalid XML through a server which isn't sufficiently validating (because it wants to be fast, it just copies input -> output), it will cause all clients to disconnect when their xml parsers can't read the stream. :) 00:32:19 There we go, just ran sh ./run-tests.sh float.pure.lisp four times in quick succession, and the fourth time I got the failure and the three times prior I got a clean result. 00:32:21 dys`` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72e2d3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:45 pkhuong: Any ideas? 00:33:08 nope. 00:33:39 Sort of thinking, but I'm on writing up some stats on consets while enjoying my tequila ;) 00:35:10 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 00:35:51 Jabberwockey [n=jens@i59F78573.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:36:21 Fair enough. And I've just finished my second glass of wine, and am wondering if I should take another stab at trying to figure out what's wrong with my thready changes. 00:36:25 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f7340c4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 00:36:46 Given that it's an intermittent test failure, though, I'm half-tempted to try and reproduce on stock SBCL. 00:37:48 (It's either that, or try to figure out why 62-bit fixnums blew up in my face.) 00:38:21 oh, what happened to 63 bit fixnums? 00:39:22 foom: they seem to work. nyef's testing with 62 bit fixnums to detect more hidden magic numbers. 00:39:45 -!- htunk [n=htunk@ppp-71-139-36-121.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:39:55 htunk [n=htunk@ppp-71-139-36-121.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:56 benny` [n=benny@i577A8982.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:41:11 foom: Basically, it's a sanity-test to see if we really fixed everything. If 62-bit fixnums don't work then we screwed up somewhere and hard-coded a 61-or-63 dependency. 00:41:20 ah. makes sense. 00:41:43 We're actually at the point where I'm thinking about cleaning things up for committing early 1.0.34. 00:42:18 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A7393.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:42:49 -!- benny` is now known as benny 00:43:40 Okay, time to do the easy thing: Build from master and see if repeating the float.pure.lisp test enough times will garner me a bug-372 failure. 00:45:07 -!- dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7364ce.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 00:49:17 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2F2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:23 well, that's interesting. We have wildly difference set size profiles depending on the operation. 00:50:26 *different. 00:55:40 So, I now have two -different- proofs of concept for minimal cold-cores, and a proof-of-concept for a no-runtime core... 00:55:43 Aha! 00:55:59 I got a set of bug-372 failures on a normal build. 00:56:02 <_3b> nyef: does the scale-float not get constant-folded when it fails? 00:56:27 But, more than that, it -paused- for a second or so when running the first one when it failed. 00:56:54 I am looking for a way to set sb-bsd-sockets to set multicast, but am having no luck. Is this currently supported in sbcl? 00:56:59 *_3b* sees a style-warning running the code outside tests, and in passing test, but not in pasted failure 00:57:05 nyef annotated #92753 "Consecutive runs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92753#3 00:57:28 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:37 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:59:06 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:53 Of course, this leads to the question of -why- it fails intermittently. 01:00:28 *_3b* can't get it to fail on 1.0.33.30 01:00:52 1.0.33.30? 01:00:58 Oh. 01:01:04 Just tried it on 1.0.33.29. 01:01:06 joubert_ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:09 Clearly, I forgot to update. 01:01:31 At the same time, however, I don't believe that the difference between 1.0.33.29 and 1.0.33.30 are significant in this case. 01:01:57 <_3b> right, whatever i had before (.33.1 maybe?) didn't fail either 01:02:12 Say, what platform/CPU are you running on? 01:02:35 <_3b> ubuntu 9.10,x86_64 (i7 920 i think) 01:03:38 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.45.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:59 And I'm running some gentoo x86_64, "AMD Turion(tm) 64 X2 Mobile Technology TL-58" 01:04:14 Running 2.6.28. 01:04:40 <_3b> looks like 2.6.31-16 here 01:04:52 *nyef* disables one of the two CPU cores. 01:05:21 Reliably fails now! 01:05:32 On 1.0.33.29. 01:06:29 And, having re-enabled the core, it takes quite a few tries for it to fail. 01:06:49 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:06:56 Ah, and I can't disable the other core. 01:07:09 (That is, I can kill cpu1 but not cpu0.) 01:09:32 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 01:10:33 nyef: you can't stop bootstrap CPU unless you want to crash your hw ... hard. Try blocking the task from accessing it 01:11:29 man taskset 01:11:29 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for taskset. 01:11:31 <_3b> hmm, should (loop repeat 10000 for i from most-positive-fixnum when (scale-float 1.0 i) count 1) return? 01:11:55 _3b: depends on the mask. I would expect so on darwin. 01:12:26 <_3b> pkhuong: should it return if COLLECT instead of WHEN .. COUNT would error? 01:13:25 <_3b> or rather, if it is undefined, is that the intended way for SBCL to handle it 01:13:35 ah, it's marked unsafely flushable. 01:13:39 joubert__ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:16 bbe [n=bbe@121.233.96.104] has joined #lisp 01:14:51 Not sure if that's right. Probably not. We want a clear FP policy, again, and to mark most of these attributes conditional on the current optimisation policy. 01:15:18 ... Is the CPU affinity inherited, or do I need to taskset the sbcl process directly? 01:15:34 joubert___ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:56 nyef: inherited at fork time, I believe. 01:16:09 So I should be able to taskset sh run-tests.sh? 01:16:16 yea 01:17:03 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:03 -!- joubert___ is now known as joubert 01:17:20 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:17:34 -!- hfoo [n=h@p5B17D0B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:17:46 ... failure mode isn't consistent with that interpretation. 01:17:47 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:18:28 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:39 should be easy to test: run that command twice (simultaneously), and make sure one CPU is idle. 01:19:03 Should be easy to test: If I don't run on cpu1, the bug-372 cases fail consistently. 01:19:22 that's if you boot with linux only having one CPU? 01:19:44 That's if I echo "0" > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu1/online 01:20:25 joubert___ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:38 that'll do a ton of other stuff than just pinning your process to cpu0. 01:22:57 quidnunc` [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:23:12 proq` [n=user@71-20-201-84.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:30 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:39 -!- joubert___ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- joubert__ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@63.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA8CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@70-56-255-61.eugn.qwest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@pool-108-2-120-130.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-175-71.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:39 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152206.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-160-211.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:23:40 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:24:47 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:45 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152206.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:26:08 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:26:15 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 01:26:17 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 01:26:39 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA7B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 01:26:58 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:28:37 NigNogXmas [n=NigNogXm@201.170.67.11.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:52 where can I athk thum help about lithp? 01:29:06 I have been lisping since I was a little kid 01:29:15 is this a support group? 01:29:23 jmbr [n=jmbr@63.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 01:30:17 -!- joubert_ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:38 i'm bad with typing but that first line beat me on a bad day 01:30:58 NigNogXmas: no, it's not 01:31:10 can you all help me out 01:31:17 or guide me to the right resources? 01:31:21 I need to get rid of this lisp. 01:31:25 no, wrong channel 01:31:35 i did a search for lisp in google 01:31:38 please, go away 01:31:39 and I got the chatroom 01:31:46 had to download some stupid software 01:31:48 to get it 01:32:05 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:58 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:32 joubert___ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 joubert__ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 mjsor [n=mjsor@70-56-255-61.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 shrughes [n=shrughes@pool-108-2-120-130.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:32 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 01:33:42 -!- joubert__ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:48 Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@89.152.187.193] has joined #lisp 01:34:31 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Operation timed out] 01:34:41 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:42 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-175-71.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:51 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-160-211.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:23 fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA8CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:34 Tired of those feral negroid beasts and their monkeyshines? Are you uncomfortable with those Nazi-like groups? We have the forum for you! Chimpout Forum! At Chimpout we are not White Supremacists! We welcome anybody who isn't a nigger and who hates niggers! Thats right! At Chimpout we welcome the diversity of the human species by welcoming Asians, Jews, non-negroid Hispanics, Arabs, Semites, Whites, Native Americans, Indians, 01:35:35 etc. Basically we accept all races except for those fecal-colored Negros! Join us today in the epic battle of human vs. NIGGER! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 01:35:35 Tired of those feral negroid beasts and their monkeyshines? Are you uncomfortable with those Nazi-like groups? We have the forum for you! Chimpout Forum! At Chimpout we are not White Supremacists! We welcome anybody who isn't a nigger and who hates niggers! Thats right! At Chimpout we welcome the diversity of the human species by welcoming Asians, Jews, non-negroid Hispanics, Arabs, Semites, Whites, Native Americans, Indians, 01:35:38 etc. Basically we accept all races except for those fecal-colored Negros! Join us today in the epic battle of human vs. NIGGER! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 01:35:41 Tired of those feral negroid beasts and their monkeyshines? Are you uncomfortable with those Nazi-like groups? We have the forum for you! Chimpout Forum! At Chimpout we are not White Supremacists! We welcome anybody who isn't a nigger and who hates niggers! Thats right! At Chimpout we welcome the diversity of the human species by welcoming Asians, Jews, non-negroid Hispanics, Arabs, Semites, Whites, Native Americans, Indians, 01:35:46 etc. Basically we accept all races except for those fecal-colored Negros! Join us today in the epic battle of human vs. NIGGER! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 01:36:09 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:09 -!- joubert___ is now known as joubert 01:36:26 -!- NigNogXmas [n=NigNogXm@201.170.67.11.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-lined] 01:37:21 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:05 *[df]* sighs 01:40:59 Is there something like IMAPfilter for lisp? 01:41:30 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 01:46:48 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA8CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:46:48 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-160-211.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:46:48 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-175-71.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:46:48 -!- rotty 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[n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:01:50 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@i59F78573.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:03:13 how can i make hunchentoot serve what is going to standard out and not the return value? 02:04:09 capture what goes to *standard-output*, e.g. with with-output-to-string. 02:04:59 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.38] has joined #lisp 02:06:04 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:39 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:08:48 pkhuong: ah, the cl-who with-html-output-to-string macro is what i was looking for. thanks 02:10:20 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.185.240] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:10:20 -!- PuffTheMagic [n=quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:10:20 -!- CrazyEddy 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02:53:30 mikezor [n=mikael@c-24ed70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:53:49 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:56 Hey all, I'm interested in outputting a sequence of arrow keys (eg. "up up down right") and requiring the user to follow them within a certain amount of time 02:55:07 Slightly bewildered at how to start this in lisp however 02:55:13 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:32 uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:36 Well, the first question is, can you even detect when the user presses an arrow key? 02:55:54 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:56:09 -!- borisc [n=borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:56:19 -!- nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 02:56:34 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:45 Which leads to the question of what sort of UI you were hoping for. A good old-fashioned terminal app? 02:56:48 From my reading it seems like input is all blocking? 02:56:55 nyef: Yup! :D 02:57:13 nus [n=nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 02:57:18 Terminal, huh? 02:57:35 Well, the stupidly-simple version would possibly involve a polled-loop looking for input. 02:57:39 clhs listen 02:57:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listen.htm 02:57:40 seangrove: you could use format and read input chars from the input stream... 02:57:48 stupidly simple sounds good to me 02:57:54 clhs sleep 02:57:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm 02:58:22 -!- wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d816608.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:58:33 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:58:37 seangrove: then you could use McCLIM as an extension and write yourself an opengl backend for it to draw fancy arrows ;) 02:58:48 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:58:48 Your next problem would be that most terminal streams are set to line-buffering at the kernel level (so-called "line discipline", see termios(3) for more details). 02:58:53 Heh, all in good time, I'm sure! 02:58:59 :P 02:59:19 -!- madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:59:20 Alternately, you could abandon the idea of using a terminal and go straight to CLX or some other GUI toolkit binding. 02:59:35 nyef: I'll check out clx then 02:59:52 Oh god, that looks terrible 02:59:58 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:00:14 Mind the GLX stuff in CLX, it's a little finicky and somewhat unfinished. 03:00:43 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:00:57 seangrove: perhaps ltk? That's straightforward, but I don't know how it inputs text 03:01:42 seangrove: also: I'd try to make it in a terminal first... in the worst case you'll need to press the keys and press return afterwards. Or maybe find some way to make it send input immediately in the terminal app 03:02:26 I'll drop the immediate portion to start then 03:02:37 Try to make it even simpler 03:03:02 sight clbuild is acting funny 03:03:11 Well, no wonder threads aren't working right for me. I got the parameters to ASH backwards in target-thread.lisp. 03:03:22 <_3b> use letters instead of arrows if you want simpler on terminals 03:04:11 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:34 -!- proq` [n=user@71-20-201-84.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:04:48 Error: cannot download unknown project shepherdb << that means that clbuild can't find shepherdb in my wnpp-projects or my-projects file, right? 03:05:33 seangrove: as what you're building classifies as a 'game', you're welcome in #lispgames 03:05:48 Oh, very nice, I had no idea about that channel 03:07:17 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:18 -!- joubert_ is now known as joubert 03:08:02 nipra_ [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 03:08:18 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:08:52 -!- proq`` [n=user@71-20-201-84.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:10:11 -!- ultraquix [n=vision@75-162-125-243.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:29 -!- nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Success] 03:10:59 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:13:43 A simple clone of Mosh Mosh Revolution, huh? 03:21:02 needs more saturn reverse engineering. 03:21:38 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:22:24 nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 03:22:40 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 03:24:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:24:46 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:24:46 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:24:46 -!- dalkvist 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joined #lisp 03:34:49 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 03:34:52 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 03:35:23 Anyway to turn a list into a string? 03:35:43 JonSmith [n=jon@71.233.58.7] has joined #lisp 03:35:43 <_3b> lots of ways, which string do you want? 03:35:53 Several. (format nil "~S" ) comes to mind. 03:36:14 As does the use of PRINT and WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING... 03:36:34 <_3b> (princ-to-string '(1 2 3)), (coerce '(#\a #\b #\c) 'string), ... 03:36:41 Format makes sense 03:37:17 I generate a list composed of letters (symbols, actually I think), and would like to turn that into a string to compare to user input 03:37:53 it makes more sense to me to turn the user input into a list. 03:38:03 Lists are much more structured than strings. 03:38:03 Heh, fair enough 03:38:55 <_3b> does cffi have any way to specify alignment of foreign types? 03:39:06 I'll give that a try...I see something on the net like that 03:40:56 -!- dys`` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72e2d3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 03:41:31 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d816608.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:41:51 _3b do unions not do that 03:42:01 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:42:05 <_3b> Guthur: not that i know of 03:43:13 pkhuong: Threads seem to be working. I got no additional failures with threading enabled over than with a single-thread build. 03:43:30 awesome. 03:46:57 _3b a union will be aligned to the largest element, but i'm not sure if that helps at all 03:47:01 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:47:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:47:01 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:47:01 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:47:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:47:01 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:47:01 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:47:01 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:47:01 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:47:01 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@70-56-255-61.eugn.qwest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:47:01 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:47:01 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:02 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:02 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:02 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:02 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:02 -!- dek51 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:02 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:02 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8982.versanet.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:02 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:02 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:02 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:45 nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 03:48:46 joubert_ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:58 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:49:58 -!- joubert_ is now known as joubert 03:52:03 <_3b> Guthur: don't think so, if i'm reading right i need to be able to align stuff to 128 bytes, 03:52:28 128 *bytes*?! 03:52:38 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 mjsor [n=mjsor@70-56-255-61.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 03:53:16 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:53:17 <_3b> pkhuong: __attribute__((aligned(128))) 03:53:21 *_3b* hasn't actually gotten to the point of figuring out where that is used, so it might not actually matter 03:53:27 sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:46 That looks lossy. 03:54:59 Don't think many toolchains and runtimes guarantee that much alignment. 03:55:27 pkhuong: looks like L1 data cache line optimized alingment 03:55:33 <_3b> right, comment a bit above that says 'Maintaining proper alignment is the user's responsibility.' 03:56:22 p_l: I don't know of many caches that have 128 byte lines. 03:56:33 _3b: oh, just add padding at the end then. 03:57:07 <_3b> well, the objects in question are the same size, so if any padding is needed, it would be at the beginning 03:57:16 pkhuong: I vaguely recall 128 bytes suggested for cache alignment some time ago. Might be incorrect, though 03:57:50 *_3b* is looking at openCL, so not just cache involved 03:57:55 p_l: I've never seen more than 64 byte. Maybe on really expensive HPC platform. 03:58:45 GPU code? 03:59:03 _3b: uh? You want padding at the end, that way you can pass index into your array of aligned_foo_t and get foo_t *. 04:00:30 michel13 [n=michel13@c-71-59-3-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:45 <_3b> pkhuong: i mean padding between the raw pointer and the aligned one, though i guess if i can't rely on a sufficiently aligned pointer, it would end up with padding on either end in the unaligned case 04:00:50 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:00:56 union with a 128byte cstruct would work 04:00:59 i think 04:01:15 <_3b> Guthur: in cffi? 04:01:22 will it would in c 04:01:26 well 04:01:44 beyond that i am not sure 04:01:51 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@70-56-255-61.eugn.qwest.net] has quit [] 04:01:57 _3b: there are three issues: 1. aligned-enough allocation; 2. arrays of your "aligned" struct; 3. actually aligning the fields that need alignment. 04:02:12 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-35-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:02:53 <_3b> pkhuong: right, i think i'm mainly thinking about 1 at this point 04:03:29 <_3b> (though if cffi would magically handle the rest too, i wouldn't object :) 04:03:30 memalign. 04:03:37 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 04:03:42 or posix_memalign. 04:04:06 Hey all, this seems to work, but wondering about general style guidelines in the lisp world: http://pastie.org/private/civktcb6m5lkwtowxnv4uq 04:04:10 3. you'll probably have to insert padding (or use the groveller), unless CFFI has special support for the gcc extension. 04:04:30 The string-to-list was listed verbatim off the web somewhere 04:04:31 * 3. pad before the aligned elements, of course. 04:04:39 2. the groveller might work, otherwise you'll have to pad at the end. 04:04:40 _3b how would you check if its aligned 04:05:34 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 04:05:34 benny [n=benny@i577A8982.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:05:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 04:05:34 spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 04:05:34 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:34 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 04:05:34 dek51 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has joined #lisp 04:05:34 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:34 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:40 <_3b> Guthur: (zerop (mod pointer alignment)) or whatever ? 04:05:42 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:05:44 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 04:05:44 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:46 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-13-77.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:05:49 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 04:05:55 ah ok 04:06:01 -!- dek51 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:06:15 -!- michel13 [n=michel13@c-71-59-3-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:06:44 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:07:25 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:07:58 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 04:09:13 _3b: logtest (: 04:10:56 <_3b> yeah, lots of options there :) 04:12:31 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:13:15 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:46 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:15:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:15:46 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-13-77.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:15:46 -!- spoofy 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(Connection timed out)] 07:30:48 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:31:16 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 07:33:38 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 07:39:20 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:17 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:47:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:47:11 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@222.123.140.61] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:48:19 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:49:06 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:49:40 good morning 07:50:28 ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.211] has joined #lisp 08:00:51 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:10:05 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:11:07 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@63.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:11:24 Jabberwockey [n=jens@i59F78573.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:55 -!- uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:13:34 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@pool-71-126-42-170.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:14:57 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:20:11 -!- madsy_ [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:20:39 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:24:11 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:24:13 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 08:24:52 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:25:05 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:29 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:38 Howdy all. 08:25:46 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:26:03 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:28:21 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 08:28:41 Anyone running OG in Linux here? I'm troubleshooting an NFS issue. 08:29:10 <_3b> OG? 08:29:11 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-15-236.ip58.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:29:56 Open Genera 08:30:04 <_3b> ah, not me then :) 08:33:05 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:16 mik8y [n=user@203.246.179.182] has joined #lisp 08:33:41 CinnoberMat [i=HydraIRC@94.191.159.86.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 08:39:47 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:03 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.30] has joined #lisp 08:42:43 Hi, I'm reading practical common lisp and I'm blocked in a simple example that doesn't work with my implementation: http://pastie.org/759785 I don't see why result shouldn't be bounded inside let/ Hope someone can help. 08:45:36 <_3b> thehcdreamer: seems to work here 08:46:02 _3b: ok, so it must be my implementation. Thanks 08:46:04 <_3b> thehcdreamer: what does your with-gensyms look like? 08:46:25 _3b: it was already built in 08:46:52 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:53 <_3b> you were probably supposed to use one from PCL then 08:47:13 _3b: you are probably right, I'll try it now 08:47:37 thehcdreamer, is it a coincidence that your name has "cdr"? 08:47:42 <_3b> yeah, fails using with-gensyms from clisp 08:47:51 Adlai: yes it is :D 08:48:38 *_3b* tried originally with the one from alexandria 08:49:46 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:50:01 _3b: it works with the version on the book. It generates a warning because it was already defined, but it's not a big deal, thanks 08:51:02 <_3b> thehcdreamer: one reason to work in a package that only :USEs :cl instead of in CL-USER, makes it more obvious when you use non-standard stuff by accident :) 08:57:03 besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 09:00:48 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:53 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2AC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:21 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:03:50 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 09:09:57 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:14:03 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has joined #lisp 09:14:54 good morning 09:15:51 -!- mik8y [n=user@203.246.179.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:55 I've made a trivial test program using glut. And it fails with Unhandled memory fault at #x0. 09:16:32 <_3b> are you using cl-glut from cl-opengl? 09:17:10 akamaus pasted "cl-glut unhandled memory error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92761 09:17:45 _3b, yes, I recently installed it with asdf-install 09:18:01 I'm on gentoo, using sbcl-1.0.31 09:18:52 <_3b> hmm, works here 09:20:19 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:46 _3b, I guess, it should ) 09:21:13 maybe there're any trivial things to check first? 09:21:23 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:21:42 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 09:21:56 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 09:21:57 <_3b> well, you could try using my version of cl-opengl 09:22:32 <_3b> looks like the asdf-install version should be OK too though 09:23:53 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:24:05 <_3b> you can get mine with either git clone git://github.com/3b/cl-opengl.git or doenload http://github.com/3b/cl-opengl/tarball/master 09:24:44 <_3b> alternately, try running the examples that came with the cl-opengl you have and see if they work better 09:26:50 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-24-149.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:27:04 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-229-189.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:30:11 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:34:50 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:56 _3b, thanks, I'll try your suggestions and report the results 09:37:15 Thinlisp looks interesting, but quite a major tool, nearly a whole CL implementation. anyone know of something more like Linj for C? i.e. C in parens that can eval in Lisp but also translate to readable .c files 09:40:19 re-l_ [n=re-l@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:22 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 09:52:16 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@i59F78573.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:52:17 -!- besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:48 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:53:54 -!- Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:54:56 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 09:55:59 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:59:13 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 09:59:23 madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has joined #lisp 10:01:58 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:52 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:53 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 10:05:14 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:05:29 akamaus annotated #92761 "cl-opengl from git://github.com/3b/cl-opengl.git" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92761#1 10:05:52 _3b, error still there 10:06:08 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 10:08:44 <_3b> akamaus: strange, what glut do you have installed? 10:09:20 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 10:10:41 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 10:11:03 <_3b> akamaus: possibly try switching to freeglut if that isn't what you have now 10:11:39 plage [n=user@123.19.54.120] has joined #lisp 10:11:44 Good afternoon! 10:13:07 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 10:14:41 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:14:54 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2AC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:26 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:50 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:24:00 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:24:12 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:35:47 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.30] has quit [] 10:38:31 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:38:49 _3b, freeglut-2.6.0. glxgears work ok 10:39:53 akamaus: glxgears does not use glut, now does it? 10:40:16 (if there is no teapot, then it does not use glut :) 10:40:41 jdz, hmm.. I guess you're right. I mean opengl works on my box 10:42:51 jdz, thanks for a tip. I see my older C++ programs using glut segfault too now.. 10:43:16 sorry for noise 10:43:37 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:43:41 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:44:49 -!- lupine_85 [n=quassel@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:44:52 lupine_85 [n=quassel@lupine.me.uk] has joined #lisp 10:44:57 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.187.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 10:47:31 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:02:49 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:10 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:06:05 I downgraded glut to 2.4 and examples work now ) 11:06:08 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 11:07:46 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:08:20 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 11:11:41 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:08 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.160.162.2] has joined #lisp 11:16:14 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.160.162.2] has left #lisp 11:22:25 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:22:40 yay for cl-glut workingness 11:22:57 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-169-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:23:26 howdy 11:26:14 Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has joined #lisp 11:30:19 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:30:24 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 11:30:48 hello tcr 11:31:01 hi plage; how were your holidays? 11:31:22 tcr: Pretty good, and they still are :) 11:31:26 pkhuong: I'd be interested in a blog posting about _how_ you collected that data in the first place 11:31:32 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:31:57 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:32:38 pkhuong: Even better would be a manual entry about slow compilation times, how to collect profiling data, and where to send it with relevant meta data (sbcl version, OS, platform, etc.) 11:34:41 *_3b* last saw slow compilation due to PCL gratuitously recompiling things 11:35:37 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:37:47 Finally. NFS issues fixed! 11:37:57 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-157.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:37:59 Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 11:38:09 _3b: I see it at work with heavy macro-fu introducing lots of branches, tagbodies, blocks etc. 11:38:44 Hmm, hyperspec.el is no longer included in slime is it? 11:38:57 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 11:38:58 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:59 dnm: I just joined, what NFS issues? at work, trying to compile sbcl on nfs results in an sb-posix test case failure, you aren't by chance talking of that? 11:39:08 <_3b> tcr: i think my problem was adding macrolets inside defmethods or something like that 11:39:40 Oh, it is. Why am I getting "Symbol's function definition is void: common-lisp-hyperspec-strip-cl-package" then? 11:39:48 tcr: Sadly, no. I was troubleshooting Open Genera NFS issues. 11:40:06 luis: some version mismatch with a globally installed version of it? 11:40:26 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:41:08 dnm: Well, if you're experienced with nfs, you may try to build sbcl on nfs and see if you get the same failure. Iirc, it's due to atime not properly setting the atime (even though the nfs volumne was mounted with atime as mount option) 11:41:50 I forgot the name of the actual syscall that's supposed to set atime 11:42:32 Hrm. That definitely sounds out of my league as far as NFS knowledge goes. 11:42:45 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:42:53 i'd like to know why sbcl's build relies on atime? 11:43:16 or is it tests? 11:43:23 I've forgotten most of what I once knew, which was out of date to start (though that was helpful in this case, oddly), and I deal with NFS so rarely that I don't really want to expose myself to more of it. 11:43:42 tcr: good call, thanks. 11:44:04 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:50 guaqua: it's a test which excels that particular syscall 11:47:25 i misread your discussion meaning the whole build broke due to not being able to use atime during build 11:47:51 no just sb-posix reports failure :-) 11:47:58 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:15 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:21 okay, that sounds more reasonable :) 11:52:51 -!- adu 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[n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit ["cleanup time .. again .. *sigh*"] 12:15:53 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:16:29 Is there a lisp function equivilant to the basename POSIX executable? 12:17:33 i.e. foo$ basename /foo/bar/ => bar 12:17:51 clhs directory 12:17:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm 12:17:56 this is the starting point 12:17:58 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:18:04 Thanks 12:18:57 try (car (last (pathname-directory #))) 12:19:28 I was using that, just thought there might be an alternative and I was doing something stupid :) 12:20:13 -!- CinnoberMat is now known as Cinnober 12:20:18 -!- Cinnober is now known as CinnoberRast 12:22:02 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.30] has joined #lisp 12:22:08 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.30] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:24:48 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:32:37 brandelune_ 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14:51:08 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:51:19 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-15-236.ip58.fastwebnet.it] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:51:55 prxq [n=mommer@g227079015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:06 hi 14:52:32 tcr: nothing fancy. Just a bunch of format t in the function definitions (: 14:52:34 is there any nice and short trick to copy a cons tree with shared structure in such a way that the shared structure is preserved? 14:52:42 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:53:45 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-15-236.ip58.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:54:53 pkhuong: 62-bit fixnums work. 14:55:08 nyef: threaded too? That's awesome. 14:55:22 Actually, I don't know that I tested that combination. 14:55:30 prxq: yes, a hash table. 14:55:34 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:55:52 Fortunately, it's easy enough. Switching the fixnum width is down to changing a single character in early-vm.lisp. 14:56:31 (I broke down and got clever with the fixnum-lowtags list.) 14:58:18 pkhuong: I see. 14:58:47 pkhuong: I have one without a hash table. 14:59:52 you'll have much worse complexity, unless you can also mutate the cons tree you're copying. 15:00:43 yes, I mutate it. I could put it back together after doing the copy, though. 15:01:51 i keep it in that mutated state, so I can do multiple copies. I guess I'm doing wierd stuff :-) 15:01:55 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 15:02:44 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:04 just thought there was some black magic kind of trick. 15:05:06 -!- postamar [n=postamar@ALyon-156-1-32-11.w86-216.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 15:05:54 you need a way to map from the old to the new object. 15:06:26 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:56 I think Fritz Henglein had a weird method based on radix sort for a similar task. 15:07:52 astalla [n=astalla@net-93-149-132-166.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:08:03 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:21 cmm [n=cmm@109.64.105.213] has joined #lisp 15:12:38 Okay, 62-bit fixnums + threads built. 15:12:54 Running the test suite, just to be sure. 15:13:35 <_3b> tried compiling the new fixnum sizes with eachother? 15:14:04 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 15:14:46 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-125-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 15:14:53 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-169-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:15:34 _3b: No, I haven't. How important do you think it is to try? 15:16:06 -!- lusory [n=bart@bb119-74-202-168.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:16:07 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-169-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:09 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-169-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:16:50 <_3b> i'd guess not very important, just curious :) 15:17:41 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-169-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:18:54 *_3b* can try it though, if you want to point me at the code and tell me which character to change 15:20:28 http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/stupid-lowtag-tricks 15:20:44 Have a look at n-fixnum-tag-bits in src/compiler/generic/early-vm.lisp. 15:20:55 lusory [n=bart@bb119-74-197-179.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:22:01 Useful values range from 1 to 3. Anything smaller, and you don't have -any- tag bits, anything larger and you run into trouble with the few places that unboxed-but-aligned pointers are exposed to Lisp code as boxed values. 15:23:31 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-169-170.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:25:30 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 15:26:06 I think the next step is to combine and re-order the commits to get them into shape for going into CVS. 15:26:29 what, you've gone and made fixnum-tag-bits an actual working _parameter_? 15:26:58 that rules, in a somewhat abstract sort of way :) 15:27:00 milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.167] has joined #lisp 15:28:01 (or not so abstract, come to think about it. must be seriously confidence-increasing for anybody playing with the runtime) 15:29:04 Well, I rather had to, in order to be sure that my changes weren't semantically broken. Or, at least, not semantically broken in the same way that the old system was. 15:32:15 cool 15:33:57 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:13 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 15:35:57 ejs [n=eugen@90-122-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:38 nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:20 sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA9043.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:57 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:20 Ironically, list munging code in Lisp tends to look awful in my experience :-) 15:44:23 That's because lists are an anti-abstraction for almost all of those cases. 15:45:08 for sexprs? well maybe :-) 15:46:22 If you're munging them with more than atom, first and rest, sure. 15:46:30 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont_ 15:47:33 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 15:47:49 <_3b> ok, building all 9 combinations... wonder how well hyperthreading stuff works on this cpu :p 15:48:39 9 sbcl builds at once? 15:49:03 <_3b> yeah 15:49:38 <_3b> 4-5 at a time doesn't slow it down much, don't think i've tried more than that though 15:49:55 won't that trash your caches all the time? 15:51:10 I wonder how one can assign a specific cpu to one particular cpu 15:51:20 to one particular process 15:52:00 taskset? 15:53:58 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:54:16 <_3b> well, system is still reasonably responsive with a load average of 23 at least :) 15:55:37 antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:18 Zhivago: The question is whether 100 lines of ugly code justifies introducing a few hundreds lines of code for the definition of a better data structure (including infrastructure for it) -- when is it over-engineering, when not? 15:56:19 _3b: maybe that top is running on another machine :-) 15:56:33 Certainly. 15:56:50 That is the question, that is. 15:57:40 <_3b> prxq: nah, mouse is a bit less smooth than usual, so it is having some effect 15:58:11 tcr: the OS should handle that for you 15:58:20 Unless you use ck's brainfuck scheduler. 15:58:41 he wrote a process scheduler in brainfuck? 15:58:44 <_3b> and that's all of them finished, times ranging from 9min to 10:45, so it is slower than 4 at a time :( 15:58:53 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:00 *should*. It's also expected to detect batch and interactive jobs; doesn't work very well on 2.6.31's default scheduler. 15:59:25 *_3b* runs all the tests at once anyway though 15:59:33 tcr: no, just wrote a very simple minded one and it seems to work fine in the real world (< 32 procs and all ;). 15:59:33 _3b: how long one at a time takes? 15:59:44 <_3b> about 5min or so 16:00:05 -!- lusory [n=bart@bb119-74-197-179.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:07 *nyef* found a spot he missed with the fixnum tags. 16:02:06 -!- nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 16:02:35 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:29 lusory [n=bart@bb121-6-175-80.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:06:36 -!- antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:40 sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:08:55 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:05 uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:55 <_3b> hmm, Failure: threads.pure.lisp / SYMBOL-VALUE-IN-THREAD.7 16:13:10 *tcr* dislikes sbcl optimizing tail calls in default policy 16:13:17 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:15:36 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:38 Oh, joy. symbol-value-in-thread is one of those things that uses unboxed word-aligned pointers/offsets and shoves them where they can get picked up as if they were boxed. 16:17:54 What combination of settings did you use to get that? 16:18:21 <_3b> ok, rest finished, and i got that error from 3 built with 1 and 3, and from 2 built with 3 (assuming i got them in the right places) 16:18:23 _3b: that test is buggy 16:18:43 ... race condition? 16:18:45 yeah 16:18:52 Joy. 16:19:04 We keep finding the -weirdest- stuff. 16:19:55 how did you modify tls indices? 16:20:11 Are they fixnum word counts or unsigned byte counts? 16:20:19 They are unboxed unsigned byte counts. 16:20:21 *unsigned-word byte count. 16:20:21 k. 16:20:32 why? 16:20:54 Didn't have to monkey with the compiler backend, just the runtime and a couple places in target-thread. 16:21:03 Oh, and the assembly-routines. 16:21:41 Essentially, it saved computing a suitable scale for all of the indexed TLS slot accesses. 16:21:54 sure. 16:22:47 Would :c-type "unsigned long" or something in objdef.lisp serve as documentation? 16:23:14 I don't know. 16:23:27 I've actually been thinking that I want to write most of this up in the internals manual. 16:24:01 Since we have essentially the same effect with some of the static-symbols, only resolved in the other direction. 16:24:17 Err... scratch that, resolved the same way. 16:24:34 But they weren't ever accessed from the compiler backend anyway. 16:25:22 I'm not convinced that the unsigned byte-count shouldn't be a fixnum word count, though. 16:25:49 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-229-189.adslplus.ch] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8982.versanet.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:49 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-198-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:56 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:56 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:56 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:56 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:56 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:56 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:56 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:25:59 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:26:04 Ugh. Bloody netsplits. 16:26:14 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 16:26:56 <_3b> running just threads.pure.lisp 1 at a time, all passed 16:27:55 _3b: Yeah, the race is that the thread is expected to have died by the time the symbol-value-in-thread has run, and it isn't reliably even scheduled over that timeframe. 16:28:03 rtra [n=rtra@a83-132-119-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:28:48 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:49 pkhuong: Okay, one reason to leave it the way I have it is that if we widen fixnums on x86 then we don't have to involve SIB bytes in the actual tls-slot ea calculation. 16:29:52 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:30:00 And I'll admit that that's a bit of a stretch. 16:30:38 nyef: but "I've a patch for that". Move the tls lookup to load/compile -time. 16:31:40 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:40 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:40 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:40 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 16:31:40 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:31:40 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:40 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 16:31:49 dalkvist_ [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 16:33:03 shortsightedsid [n=shortsig@122.172.150.1] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-229-189.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 benny [n=benny@i577A8982.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:11 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-198-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:33:11 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:35:39 Does that help much with PROGV? 16:36:26 no, but progv is a drop compared to all the other operations. 16:36:33 Yeah, I know. 16:36:46 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:37:36 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 16:38:06 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:39:12 Honestly, this version works, and until and unless your tls-lookup patch lands I don't see changing the interpretation as being worthwhile. 16:39:35 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:40:05 Bah, the patch doesn't make fixnums simpler 16:40:12 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:40:17 Hmm? 16:40:34 blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 16:40:52 It just makes it so that fixnum word count isn't more code than an unsigned byte-count. 16:42:37 so, replace that multiplication with a sb-kernel:get-lisp-object-address? 16:43:58 Ahh. 16:44:02 Yeah, that'd be good. 16:45:41 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-jvhranubwlqjjali] has joined #lisp 16:45:45 piso: herep 16:46:01 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:11 piso: would you have some time to come to #abcl, if you please? 16:46:13 nyef: I think those 2 functions are all the lisp code that touches tls indices. 16:46:22 Probably. 16:46:41 Everything else is runtime, assembly-routine, or output by the compiler backend. 16:50:13 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:41 *nyef* tries to make symbol-value-in-thread.[78] fail reliably on his system. 16:51:39 -!- fihi09``` [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:51 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:53 fihi09``` [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:49 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@64.71.152.39] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:27 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:09 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:07 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:21 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.178.5] has joined #lisp 16:58:09 -!- ejs [n=eugen@90-122-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:58:34 -!- dandersen is now known as dkcl 16:59:51 Okay, that's two thread tests fixed. 17:00:01 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.251.251] has joined #lisp 17:02:39 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:39 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:39 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:39 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:39 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:39 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:39 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-198-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-229-189.adslplus.ch] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8982.versanet.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:02:59 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:03:03 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-15-236.ip58.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:03:16 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-198-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:04:47 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.197.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:06:16 nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:43 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.45] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:07:12 -!- dkcl is now known as dandersen 17:08:01 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev9pf.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:23 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:23 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:23 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:23 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 17:08:23 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:08:23 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:23 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 17:08:36 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:09:04 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:09:17 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:11:47 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:13:13 benny [n=benny@i577A8982.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:13:43 Jabberwockey [n=jens@voyager.visitor.congress.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 17:13:52 Does anyone else sometimes want pointerful lisp objects in the foreign heap? 17:18:14 spooofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 17:18:21 only if I can't lock them on the lisp heap 17:18:28 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:28 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-229-189.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:18:28 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 17:18:28 spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 17:18:28 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:28 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:18:28 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:34 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:18:39 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:52 sounds awfully dangerous 17:22:04 ,yow 17:22:17 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:17 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:17 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:17 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:17 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:17 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:17 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:30 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-229-189.adslplus.ch] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:30 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:30 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:30 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:30 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:30 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:39 cmm: well, "want" implies some sort of runtime support here ;) 17:23:09 what sort? like pinning whatever those objects point to? 17:23:42 (and making those objects GC roots, obviously) 17:24:03 no; they're *lisp objects*, but they just happen to be in the foreign heap. Add them to the root set and scan for pointers normally. 17:24:44 ah 17:25:07 another of those abstractly extremely neat things :) 17:25:32 what's your use case? 17:25:45 cmm: I can think of two or three use-cases, actually. 17:26:03 One of them is memory-mapping heap segments from disk. 17:26:10 I'd use it for my binary serialisation system. 17:26:55 ah, so you want not individual objects but at least pagefuls then. not quite what I was thinking about 17:27:24 It'd also be useful for large vectors, when you don't want/can't have a large dynamic space. 17:27:58 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:58 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:58 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:58 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 17:27:58 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:27:58 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:58 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 17:28:00 (and arguebly the underlying pages of memory would not be quite foreign :)) 17:28:02 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:02 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-229-189.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:28:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 17:28:02 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:28:02 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:06 joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:18 Another application could be tieing into foreign object systems... 17:28:19 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:29:29 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:57 unfortunately, that'd kill generationality. 17:30:59 jmbr [n=jmbr@83.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:31:01 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:31:46 -!- lnostdal 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http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D"] 19:19:34 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:01 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:22:19 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:23:11 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:11 -!- madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:27 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:26:05 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:25 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 19:26:52 Axius [n=ade@92.82.71.158] has joined #lisp 19:28:10 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 19:28:16 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 19:28:53 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:55 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:25 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:19 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 19:31:44 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.3.186] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:31:45 -!- md` [n=user@85-135-224-2.adsl.slovanet.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:02 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-249.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:34:21 slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0B653.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:11 joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:36 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:38:19 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:41 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-210-218.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:43:10 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 19:43:32 -!- astalla [n=astalla@net-93-149-132-166.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:43:58 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 19:47:19 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:47:27 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-229-189.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:27 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 19:49:25 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0B653.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51:55 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:12 It sucks that you can't easily know whether a macro's argument is going to be evaluated, or not, in Lisp.. :-) 19:55:47 I got slime's arglist code to a point where I could use that knowledge to do the right thing (e.g. "(cond (block" etc.) 19:56:25 anders hejlsbjerjg said much the same thing at oopsla 2007 19:56:31 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:56:31 add a hook for special cases and win ;) 19:56:35 "you can't write any tools for these dynamic languages!" 19:56:54 the best I know is to reuse portable xref's caller pattern for that which would work for cl stuff 19:56:56 Xach: you'd have the same problem in a static language... 19:57:21 ab0w [n=abow@echelon.ext.c-base.org] has joined #lisp 19:57:45 pkhuong: inability to write tools? 19:57:52 there's the 90% solution of macroexpand-all, walk, and compare with EQ 19:58:08 Xach: to determine what is and isn't evaluated in a macro? yes. 19:58:09 (not suitable for slime though because it'd drag in too much code) 19:58:32 pkhuong: maybe you should have been on the panel instead of anders 19:58:34 I *do* not want my IDE to randomly trigger macroexpansions for fontification and arglist display. 19:58:51 wouldn't you want to emphasize "not"? 19:58:56 :-) 19:59:38 Xach: it's just that tcr's current problem isn't an issue with dynamicness as much as extremely powerful macros. 20:00:02 What's the matter with random macroexpansion? 20:00:03 well, it's more like defmacro to be too lowlevel 20:00:11 pkhuong: right. i think anders meant more like automatic completion, arglist hints, jumping to documentation or source, etc. 20:00:43 (and sexprs being bad at code representation) 20:00:45 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-163.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:00:45 pr [n=pr@p579CA7B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:51 Okay, it does require having the macros actually loaded... 20:01:07 Xach: dynamic language -> no tool doesn't imply that static language -> tools either. 20:01:42 pkhuong: my impression was that he was talking about intellisense 20:01:56 that's a tool 20:02:17 sure. 20:02:19 Judging by his name, I know why he wants people to have automatic completion :-) 20:03:00 three j's in a last name 20:03:22 You'd hit the same problem with a macro system like CL's. 20:03:29 tcr: Xach did add one #\j 20:03:41 fe[nl]ix: Case in point! 20:04:23 not two #\j? 20:04:40 tcr: hejlsbjerg is much simpler 20:04:43 pkhuong: Uh, if it was possible to attach meta information on sexprs, there would be no technical problem 20:05:03 Eh no sorry :-) 20:05:12 the Internet says it's "Hejlsberg" 20:05:15 *tcr* goes cooking dinner 20:05:25 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:05:43 tcr: modulo executing arbitrary code. 20:05:48 stassats`: you're right 20:06:26 and the fact remains that the issue is with the macro system, not dynamicness (unless static languages must have very restricted macro systems by definition). 20:06:27 that problem is why many people like pattern matching / splicing expanders instead of arbitrary-code-running macros. :) 20:06:40 astalla [n=astalla@net-93-149-132-166.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 20:06:45 -!- skeptomai|away [n=ncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:52 skeptomai|awa- [n=nncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:32 -!- skeptomai|awa- is now known as skeptomai|away 20:08:25 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.71.158] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:08:48 -!- borisc_ [n=borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:24 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:09:25 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:43 Elisp does it by offering an optional `debug' declaration which tells which arguments are forms and which syntactic sugar 20:11:17 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:12:22 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:48 tcr: is it possible to successfully lie to it? 20:15:40 elisp? 20:15:59 the debug declaration is interpreted by edebug how to step macros 20:16:18 if you lied to it, it'll step your macros incorrectly 20:21:15 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:59 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225049059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:23:13 ... Wait, intellisense? That useless piece of junk? I'll take SLIME arglist hinting over that almost any day. 20:23:31 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 20:24:57 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:26:17 nyef: depending on how old your checkout is, it may be worthwhile to update. Since a months, or two, parameters in nested macro arglists are highlighted. :) 20:26:33 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.187.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 20:26:36 sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:42 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:18 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 20:36:25 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:36:48 do anyone know of a "state machine planner" or a "declarative language"? (preferably in the context of server programming) 20:36:50 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:37:40 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 20:37:57 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 20:38:34 http://195.43.248.109/~hypno/dtc.txt (is where (why) i'm interrested) 20:39:03 tcr: I tend only to update SLIME when I update SBCL, and I rarely update SBCL. 20:41:14 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:43:26 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #lisp 20:48:22 hypno: there's ragel (for C et al) but i don't know of them in lisp context 20:50:51 guaqua: ah, thanks. C will do just fine. :) 20:56:42 alexi5 [n=alex@209.59.101.187] has joined #lisp 20:57:21 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:57:56 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:11 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-81.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:02:20 re-l [n=re-l@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:42 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:22 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:06:46 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.197.223] has joined #lisp 21:08:44 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-111-240.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 21:10:39 luis: ping 21:12:16 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 21:13:57 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:14:19 -!- alexi5 [n=alex@209.59.101.187] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:14:36 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:14:57 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:15:41 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 21:15:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:04 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:21:47 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:22:23 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:15 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:59 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@195-23-167-97.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 21:25:09 When I load slime, regardless of which lisp I load it for, it always warns about some unimplemented Swank interfaces. Is there a document that tells me what I lose by not having those interfaces? 21:27:02 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:30:35 Nope; what implementation do you useß 21:34:13 rpg [n=rpg@v-209-98-139-195.ip.visi.com] has joined #lisp 21:34:53 Does anyone recommend or recommend against either of the JSON approaches for CL? 21:35:41 rpg: which approaches ? 21:36:19 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:39 CL-JSON or YASON... 21:38:15 There's also a third approach: Roll your own. And quite possibly more beyond that. 21:40:01 nyef: Ah, the route of most resistance ;-) 21:40:04 tcr: sbcl at the moment 21:40:33 Looks like CL-JSON might be pretty sweet.... 21:40:41 madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has joined #lisp 21:41:27 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:41:34 Looks like CL-JSON + some sockets coding in Firefox might finally give me the CL GUI I've been looking for.... 21:41:56 a web based GUI? 21:43:19 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-24-149.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Dive! Dive! Dive!"] 21:43:47 there's also rjson iirc 21:43:56 fe[nl]ix: pong 21:44:16 malsyned: sbcl's very well integrated into slime; if you really care, you can use M-? to find the use sites in the code 21:45:36 tcr: M-? is undefined 21:46:05 malsyned: In what buffer did you try it? 21:46:08 I'm more curious than anything else. It says what interfaces aren't implemented, but doesn't really say what features that precludes. 21:46:20 luis: how about releasing babel and cffi ? 21:46:24 tcr: SLIME REPL and lisp source. 21:47:12 malsyned: try to update your slime checkout 21:47:30 tcr: not a bad idea anyway. haven't done that in a year or so. 21:48:11 fe[nl]ix: babel is missing some tests (but not a show stopper), cffi is missing some documentation (more important) 21:48:17 malsyned: you may have to tweak your .emacs afterwards 21:48:26 malsyned: I suggest to backup your current checkout 21:48:28 luis: might want to check a cl-opengl patch i sent to 3b 21:49:07 http://www.suspicious.org/~night/cl-opengl-3b-snow-leopard.diff 21:49:27 oh yes, I thought about bugging you about something like that 21:49:30 removes some of the stuff that 10.6 made obsolete (thread related) 21:49:31 cool :) 21:49:53 does that it mean it's not compatible with 10.5? 21:50:03 (it = the patch) 21:50:18 it works on all versions .4,.5,.6 21:50:46 as long as the app runs on the initial thread 21:50:54 luis: what documentation ? 21:51:08 fe[nl]ix: the library stuff you added 21:51:18 ok 21:51:32 *luis* heads off home 21:51:39 I'll fix that 21:52:17 -!- syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:38 slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0B653.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:59 uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:01 vermele [n=vermele@188.25.65.89] has joined #lisp 21:55:06 -!- xristos` is now known as xristos 21:55:33 Joreji [n=thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:35 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:57:05 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:00 Joreji [n=thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:59:16 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:01:21 arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-214-150.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:38 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-101.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:09:27 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 22:12:33 -!- vermele [n=vermele@188.25.65.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:38 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:14:21 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:15:29 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:16:41 francogrex [n=user@141.136-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:19:54 is there a way to save the definition of a function 22:19:57 so i can redefine it 22:20:04 and then undo my redefinition afterwards? 22:20:30 clhs fdefinition 22:20:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm 22:20:31 (-: 22:20:35 -!- rpg [n=rpg@v-209-98-139-195.ip.visi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:46 that's for the global function definition. 22:20:50 cool 22:20:52 yeah that's what i need 22:20:55 you may also be interested in LABELS or FLET 22:20:59 What is a good way to find out whether a frame belongs to a foreign function? 22:21:04 well, I've just spent about six hours futzing with my emacs setup. i'm continually amazed by this program. 22:21:04 if you want to affect the lexical function definition only 22:21:21 for dynamic-extent things, the fdefinition route is probably more viable 22:21:46 also, if you control both the code using the function and the code altering the definition, you are doing it wrong (-: 22:22:08 tcr: probably by checking the linkage table 22:22:15 tcr: just a wild guess 22:22:24 clop2, antifuchs: bear in mind that the effects of redefining ANSI-defined functions is undefined. 22:23:05 sure. 22:23:12 I was assuming this is not the case 22:23:20 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:23:24 otherwise, clop2 will see the error sooner rather than later (-: 22:23:45 tcr: IIRC sb-di::component-ptr-from-pc 22:24:01 anybody know why there is both symbol-function and fdefinition? Can't you setf symbol-function as well? 22:24:26 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:35 some functions have names that are not symbols 22:25:01 lispm: like setf functions, you mean? 22:25:08 yes 22:25:20 (When I say sb-di:: I actually mean the C function component_ptr_from_pc, because that is what ldb uses to distinguish lisp frames from foreign frames. I'm just guessing that the Lisp version is equally useful, but I don't really know anything about he Lisp debugger.) 22:26:21 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:26:27 -!- syamajal_ is now known as syamajala 22:28:22 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-81.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:29:33 neat, it seems to work 22:32:07 clop2: as long as the function you're overwriting isn't inlined it ought to. 22:34:53 lichtblau: well but how do I get the pc from a frame? :-) 22:34:59 (or compiled to a static call) 22:37:00 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:09 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:11 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:44:50 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:51 use etypecase on the FRAME-DEBUG-FUN to distinguish between COMPILED-DEBUG-FUN and BOGUS-DEBUG-FUN, I'd say 22:45:01 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225049059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:48:13 saikatc [n=saikatc@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 22:48:19 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-111-240.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:50:05 fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA7CA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:07 is there any reason that clisp isn't mentioned on http://www.unmutual.info/startingwithcl.html i installed it just because i saw it in the repos, but should i change to sbcl or something? (i'm very new) 22:50:18 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["leaving"] 22:52:19 franki^: clisp is portable everywhere, but sbcl is more common around here. 22:52:21 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:23 franki^: you are probably likely to have an easier ride with SBCL. 22:52:33 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:14 hmm, okay 22:53:23 franki^: if you're on windows, the recommendations at that page won't fit. see the linked blog entry. 22:53:36 franki^: if you have any problems with sbcl, you can ask chandler - it's his guide! 22:53:37 no, i'm on ubuntu at the moment 22:53:48 then sbcl is a good choice. 22:54:05 Xach: ah, i guess that counts as a good reason to change :) 22:54:56 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:56:18 -!- sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:18 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:56:27 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:56:29 franki^: 'OpenMCL' is now known as Clozure Common Lisp 22:56:38 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:39 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:57:11 hypno: therep? 22:57:20 rpg: T 22:57:42 *lispm* was dreaming of a new Scheme implementation called Ponzi Scheme 22:58:06 I'm actually not trying to make a web-based GUI. But with JSON-RPC I could use firefox as my GUI and do the communication via sockets. 22:58:22 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:51 rpg: ah, k. 22:59:27 so far I'm liking the Mozilla toolbox better than most of the alternatives... 22:59:48 mozilla toolbox? 22:59:51 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 22:59:53 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:53 Fade: good to know, but i've gone with sbcl for now, i guess that i'll do more research once i actually have the knowledge to understand the differences 23:00:01 -!- Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:34 basic differences: license, compiler technology 23:00:53 sbcl is a very good implementation for an x86oid machine running *nix 23:01:25 well that's me 23:01:31 ccl's only advantage is threads on ppc 23:01:48 Helheim_ [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has joined #lisp 23:02:01 and on OSX, it can deliver standalone execs, and it has a very nice objective-c bridge. 23:02:13 but that doesn't sound like your domain. 23:02:32 plus a nice GC 23:02:35 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #lisp 23:02:44 and iirc fast compilation? :D 23:03:00 well, it compiles faster, but the images are slower. :) 23:03:09 and an excellent FFI, great support, fast compilation, reasonable documentation, but most of all, so far stability bar none in the free lisp world. 23:03:23 what does "stability" mean? 23:03:34 closer-mop doesn't work right, though 23:03:36 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:03:40 wich is a limit for some systems. 23:03:51 I can tell you that SBCL can run our app for at least a week under heavy load...haven't tried longer. 23:04:10 foom: that the system do not go into some weird state. ie system error. 23:04:23 well, it does seem also more "stable" for usage on win64 (haven't really tried win32) 23:04:45 Maybe on platforms that aren't linux/x86-64. 23:05:08 piso: thanks for coming along 23:05:13 (which is the only one I have experience on) 23:05:15 -!- Helheim_ is now known as Helheim 23:05:26 piso: it did help 23:05:40 ehu: it was all you, man 23:05:48 really 23:05:52 :) 23:05:57 thanks :-) 23:06:15 for many tasks several of the open source Lisps are good enough or even excellent. SBCL is especially useful because of its noisy compiler 23:06:37 lispm: damning with faint praise (-; 23:06:37 the output of that compiler is generally very good. 23:06:51 it gives warnings, some type warnings, optimization hints, ... 23:07:34 antifuchs: I think that's great 23:08:16 (I just don't need to see the output every day, but when I want it, it is there) 23:08:28 (plus it can be of good help for beginners) 23:09:41 have to agree i like the SBCL 'noisy' output 23:10:30 how I use SBCL's logical pathname SYS:SRC; ? 23:11:00 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:11:17 use for what? 23:11:47 to merge with a relative pathname 23:13:23 just merge-pathnames the two? 23:13:40 (truename ...) gives you the real pathname 23:13:57 otherwise just use the usual pathname operations 23:13:59 like 23:14:23 (make-pathname :defaults some-logical-pathname :name "foo" :type "lisp") 23:15:38 http://i.imgur.com/1gF1j.jpg 23:16:18 tee hee 23:16:34 haha 23:16:36 Fare [n=Fare@adsl-71-146-76-38.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:42 that's just gold lispm 23:17:14 tcr: (truename (make-pathname :defaults "SYS:SRC;CODE;" :name "char" :type "lisp")) 23:17:55 Ok thanks lispm, fe[nl]ix 23:18:14 -!- nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:18:17 -!- re-l [n=re-l@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:00 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:06 lnostdal_ [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 23:20:06 bah this makes no sense to me 23:20:22 (truename (parse-namestring "char.lisp" nil #P"SYS:SRC;CODE;")) 23:20:41 Why doesn't that work? 23:20:42 tcr: why are you using parse-namestring? 23:21:03 namestrings are not totally useful in sbcl's interpretation of logical pathnames 23:21:14 well "char.lisp" is not actually a constant 23:21:21 nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:48 what does it return? 23:22:04 truename signals an error 23:22:13 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:22:17 no translation for #P"SYS:CHAR.LISP.NEWEST" 23:22:21 mm... looks like a working mark/sweep :| 23:22:22 -!- astalla [n=astalla@net-93-149-132-166.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 23:22:28 -!- lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 23:22:39 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA73F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:55 lispm: cool link to that picture; funny 23:23:43 plage [n=user@117.3.4.61] has joined #lisp 23:23:48 Good morning! 23:24:27 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:24:30 hi plage 23:25:28 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-jvhranubwlqjjali] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 23:25:35 tcr: merge-pathnames on (parse-namestring "char.lisp") and #P"SYS:SRC;CODE;" seems to dtrt. 23:25:58 -!- qidush [n=qidush@83.252.27.42] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:20 plage: morning! 23:27:30 I believe I ran into this behavior with SYS:-hosted LPs in the default-pathname position before 23:28:02 no idea what causes that, but I'm sure there's some implementation-defined / undefined clause somewhere in the CLHS that prohibits useful behavior for this 23:28:15 -!- martin` [n=user@pD9E68171.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:28 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:35 (merge-pathnames (parse-namestring "char.lisp") #P"SYS:SRC;CODE;") => #P"/src/code/char.lisp" 23:28:47 that's wrong, too 23:28:48 is your SYS lp translation set? 23:29:06 merge with the truename of the LP 23:29:08 sure, fe[nl]ix's example worked just fine 23:29:24 (merge-pathnames (parse-namestring "char.lisp") (truename #P"SYS:SRC;CODE;") ) 23:29:53 Is that supposed to work like that? 23:29:55 ok, the nausea is too much for me (: 23:30:05 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:30:12 -!- sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA9043.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:30:26 good luck working around LPs (-: 23:31:50 what's the point of sb-ext:parse-native-namestring? 23:33:01 -!- nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:33:06 to parse filenames in the native syntax 23:33:12 MERGE-PATHNAME takes a pathname and fills the missing part from the defaults 23:33:27 takes the host, the directory components 23:33:48 if you want to see the real directory, you need to translate the logical pathname first 23:34:04 using TRUENAME or TRANSLATE-LOGICAL-PATHNAME 23:34:32 jsnell: Well what does that mean? :) 23:34:53 or you can generate a logical pathname, by adding name and type to a logical pathname and then translate the whole thing to get the non-logical pthanme 23:34:58 well, what path does foo* denote? 23:35:50 tcr: standard unix filename syntax, instead of CL's annoying-as-hell pathname syntax. :) 23:36:02 -!- francogrex [n=user@141.136-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:09 in the lisp syntax the star is a wildcard. in the native syntax it's just a character 23:36:49 standardized globbing syntax, yay 23:36:58 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@voyager.visitor.congress.ccc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:54 lispm: the result of parse-namestring on char.lisp has an empty directory-component, doesn't it? so it should be defaulted with the stuff from the logical pathname? 23:37:57 -!- ab0w [n=abow@echelon.ext.c-base.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:38:44 well, if you look at the spec, will it default the directory? 23:39:20 no idea I never bothered to read that chapter 23:39:25 Wasn't one purpose of CLtL3 to write a better pathname standard? 23:40:06 what use is a standard, when not read? 23:40:46 lispm: you can put it in front of the door to keep out a draft. 23:40:48 the purpose of the pathname standard is to piss you off. 23:41:09 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:41:21 just read PARSE-NAMESTRING and not try to guess what it should do 23:41:25 kenanb [n=kenanb@78.180.91.5] has joined #lisp 23:41:44 Then gnash your teeth when it differs widely across implementations. 23:41:53 does it? 23:43:11 lispm: Actually, I'm not sure about parse-namestring proper, but figuring out how pathnames will behave across ACL and SBCL is the gift that keeps on giving. 23:45:13 rpg: generally, yes - in this case I'm not so sure 23:45:18 (parse-namestring "char.lisp" nil #P"SYS:SRC;CODE;") 23:45:42 LispWorks, CCL, SBCL and Genera give the same result for a defined logical pathname 23:46:14 lispm: Do they all case-flatten logical pathnames in the same funny way? 23:46:45 PCL actually has a pretty good intro to using pathnames in a portable way. 23:46:47 *rpg* always gets in trouble because ACL subverts logical pathnames to make them actually useful on a modern filesystem 23:46:58 lispm: my question refered to the merge-pathnames case 23:47:10 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-101.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:47:14 tcr: which case was that? 23:47:39 the need for truename in (merge-pathnames (parse-namestring "char.lisp") (truename #P"SYS:SRC;CODE;") ) 23:47:46 malsyned: Alas, I don't think there's any portable way to tell whether a pathname refers to a directory or not (note: not the same as being a directory pathname alone...) 23:48:48 tcr: that looks fine for me 23:48:57 rpg: there isn't, really, but PCL tells how to deal with that issue on a few popular lisps. 23:49:07 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:49:32 malsyned: Right, because there's no portable way to ask the OS whether a pathname denotes a directory... 23:49:33 lispm: but why is the truename needed on the logical pathname? 23:49:35 tcr: the definition says that it returns a non-logical pathname and takes the components from the default 23:49:45 hose who the gods wish to destroy, they first drive crazy -- hence the CL logical pathname standard. 23:50:09 tcr: the directory of sys:src;code; is src/code/ 23:50:25 tcr: no need for truename, just for resolve-logical-pathname (or whaddyamacallit) 23:50:28 lispm: does LMFS have separate namespaces for files and directories ? 23:50:29 tcr: if the logical pathname is expanded, it could be something else 23:50:43 It's an interesting case where the standardizers guessed wrong --- it turns out that modern filesystems are /less/ heterogeneous than they were at the time CL was standardized. 23:51:02 tcr: but here the pathname will not be expanded, just taken apart 23:51:14 note also how logical pathnames are case-converted to uppercase when you parse them, then maybe mapped back to lowercase by SBCL 23:51:36 rpg: were there that many FS paradigms left in 1990? 23:51:41 fe[nl]ix: what is a namespace ? 23:51:52 rpg: they also guessed wrong in that Java, not Lisp, is the language of the future :-/ 23:51:56 VMS is still here 23:52:02 FAT 23:52:03 lispm: kind of 23:52:04 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA7CA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:52:04 lispm: oh, ok then (: 23:52:10 lispm: can a file /a/b and a directory /a/b/ coexist ? 23:52:12 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-101.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:25 pkhuong: They were still maintaining portability over VAX, the lispms, and the mac fs was weird, too. 23:52:25 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:52:33 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:52:36 fe[nl]ix: I don't think so, not sure 23:52:55 optical disks have interesting file systems 23:53:05 Hence the way the standard fits so poorly on today's uniformly case-sensitive file naming conventions. 23:53:20 the mac is not case sensitive 23:53:23 Oh, yeah, and versioning seems dead. 23:53:26 just case preserving 23:53:37 optical disks have versions 23:53:48 CDROMs for example 23:53:51 lisp: in theory, but not in practice.not really 23:54:00 lispm, rather 23:54:03 fe[nl]ix: i tried it in windows and failed, if you wonder windows approach 23:54:09 rpg: uniformly case-sensitive? Not if you want regular software to work on OS X. 23:54:13 lispm: Can you really reference into CDROMs differentially using the versioning in CL? 23:54:32 pkhuong: Maybe I just never make case-clashes in OSX.... 23:54:33 on my Lisp Machine, yes ;) 23:54:43 but that does not count, I guess 23:54:48 anybody here knows of a FS of an OS where CL implementations ran back then where a file /a/b and a directory /a/b/ could coexist ? 23:55:01 kenanb: what are you referring to ? 23:55:01 on an OpenVMS machine, who knows 23:55:08 lispm: e.g. everyone uses the ISO 9660 CD filesystem...except, everyone uses the Joliet extensions on top of it, which makes it normal instead of insane. 23:55:20 rpg: you can have either in HFS+, but important stuff like Photoshop doesn't like case-sensitivity. 23:55:29 fe[nl]ix: /a/b /a/b coexisting thing :) 23:55:39 oh 23:55:45 i mean /a/b /a/b/ 23:55:50 fe[nl]ix: no such thing 23:56:00 pkhuong: I really use my mac as a linux machine where all the hardware devices work. I use hardly any true mac applications. 23:56:02 fe[nl]ix: I'll check 23:57:06 *rpg* bought his mac laptop when the last linux one went tits up and he couldn't spare the three months to get hibernation working again.... 23:57:24 lenovo works :) 23:57:35 or thinkpad, i should say 23:57:40 rpg: same here. I think office has issues with that too, though, so I'm sticking to the usual case-preserving setting. 23:57:41 rpg you bought a new laptop just for hibernation 23:57:58 Guthur: no, a mac instead of a !mac for workingness. 23:58:11 Guthur: No. I bought a Mac laptop because I knew all the hardware would have drivers and work. 23:58:32 Guthur: I am now senior enough that I am forbidden to have a laptop that is a hobby... 23:58:41 it was just you last statement that made it sound like that 23:58:42 <_3b> versioning support would be nice for accessing backups or version control repos 23:58:45 a friend of mine has a mac and the hibernate on the laptop never wakes up 23:59:10 from that i gather that macs can also !work 23:59:14 rpg: i can buy the old one if you want :) 23:59:18 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:59:26 kenanb: It's dead, Jim. 23:59:32 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:59:36 fe[nl]ix: /a/b and /a/b/ can coexist 23:59:43 guaqua: yeah but that's not because it doesn't work without 5 months of fiddling: it's because 5 months of fiddling have *broken* it. 23:59:59 guaqua: That is: if he reinstalled the OS, it'd work again.