00:03:12 soupdragon: it starts to halt while the polygon number increases, it is usually what happens to every 3d modeling tool after all, but not with this number of polygons. 00:04:05 are you saying that it doesn't scale? 00:04:34 -!- dazorka_ [n=user@p57A7CAAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:04:55 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:35 nyef: i've been modeling for 14 hours now, i think i am not going to be clever enough to make this joke for this week :) 00:05:41 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:53 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:06:48 adeht: scaling is not the most heavyweight job for a modeler, but if you really wonder, it doesn't even move the drawing :) 00:08:37 I think by "it doesn't scale", adeht meant that it doesn't work well as the number of objects increases. 00:08:56 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:07 yep.. it is a Google product, after all.. 00:09:21 Just like the map of Lispers? 00:09:51 plage: uh, sorry then, yes, we can say that 00:10:09 plage: problems there too? (I am not on that map) 00:12:05 and it is not really a google product, it was a product of @last software, then google bought it for google earth project, nearly changed nothing :) 00:13:00 attempting to add to that map introduced me to the kind of fail characterised by falling down the stairs in slow motion. 00:13:01 <_3b> adeht: half the people on the map aren't on the map either :p 00:13:02 adeht: It worked OK for a dozen or so, then it started losing people, not displaying some others, etc. 00:13:23 I see 00:13:46 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-38-17.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:13:58 <_3b> (also, it is too easy to modify, so just trying to navigate it tends to corrupt the data if you aren't careful) 00:14:07 norvig should do something about it :) 00:14:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-108-155.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:14:39 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 00:14:59 3b: yeah.. lots of software got that view/edit non-distinction :/ 00:15:27 and if you want to complain about google UI.. two words: google groups 00:16:36 *_3b* doesn't mind UI there so much as lack of spam filtering :p 00:16:40 i guess google groups is nice, except the spam issue that kills my gmail inbox 00:17:18 _3b: yes, that's what i was thinking :) 00:17:22 kenanb: Discount prices for Pascal's macros and Italian shoes! 00:18:12 <_3b> google groups UI is for example nicer than most of the horrible mailing-list -> ad page gateways that get always seem to clutter up google searches :/ 00:18:14 enlarge your bignum 00:20:01 Haha. 00:20:12 *_3b* thought enlarging fixnums was the current trend 00:20:51 Indeed, though I don't know what's up with the GC invariant lossage when running tests on the wider-fixnum tree. 00:22:48 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.221.84] has joined #lisp 00:23:25 welp. as luck would have it, can't reproduce a bug that occurs fairly often with google groups UI to show you how horrible it is 00:26:03 maybe they changed something.. now there are all kinds of other bugs.. looking for "group:comp.lang.lisp author:naggum", for example, gives me all kinds of groups, and only 6,380 results 00:26:29 i only wish for a spam filter that filters gavino's messages, that would be brilliant, they are worse than real spam 00:26:45 konr [n=user@187.88.238.8] has joined #lisp 00:26:58 group:comp.lang.lisp in fact, gives me a alt.religion.emacs first entry 00:27:37 adeht: May he rest in peace. 00:29:26 btw, has anyone tried Core Server? 00:30:59 <_3b> adeht: xposted to and followup-to c.l.l though 00:31:04 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:57 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.238.8] has left #lisp 00:33:47 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:34:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:35:27 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A177C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:40:49 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:29 TR2N [i=email@89-180-183-110.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 00:44:32 benny [n=benny@i577A7393.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:45:48 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:48:04 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:48:06 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6F5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:46 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:54:29 konr` [n=user@187.88.238.8] has joined #lisp 00:55:15 -!- konr` [n=user@187.88.238.8] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:50 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:58:50 quek [n=read_eva@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:58:51 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 01:00:03 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.213.44] has left #lisp 01:04:09 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.221.84] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:09:30 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 01:12:32 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:51 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 01:13:34 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:33 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:38 Lufter [n=lufter@187.88.238.8] has joined #lisp 01:23:08 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["leaving"] 01:23:54 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 01:28:11 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:58 Hey guys, I've installed slime, and I'm trying to get it running with CL (it works with Clojure). When I start it, I get into a REPL with an error message, saying it didn't find swank-loader.lisp, but it is looking at slime-path, not at /usr/share/. Have you got any idea on how to fix it? I was considering moving the files to the slime directory, but there is certainly a smoother solution 01:29:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:55 <_3b> Lufter: how did you install slime? (usually it comes with swank as well) 01:31:31 _3b`: with emacs' package installer (m-x package-list-packages) 01:32:14 ELPA, it seems 01:32:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-33-135.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:41 <_3b> ah, not sure how that is intended to work 01:34:44 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-154.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:36:27 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.132.216] has joined #lisp 01:36:40 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.34] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:40 Lufter: I've found that error goes away if you (require 'swank) from a lisp external to emacs. 01:37:45 idk why. 01:42:10 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:46 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-043-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:03 if you're using a system packaged lisp /w common-lisp-controller, I have no idea what the potential interactions are; i've seen that error on a fresh clbuild sbcl+slime checkout when I try to start slime from an emacs external to clbuild. 01:44:35 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:35 Fade: actually adding the (require) form to .sbclrc did work! Thanks! 01:46:49 n'p 01:52:07 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 01:52:41 -!- topo [n=topo@201.230.202.21] has quit [] 01:57:02 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 01:57:36 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:57:43 hi 01:57:50 hello Sikander 01:58:23 Hi Sikander... late for you, isn't it? 01:58:27 I'm having some problems implementing a backend for mcclim. 01:58:33 LiamH: Yeah... 01:58:46 Sikander: What seems to be the problem? 01:58:50 LiamH: That's what happens during holidays... 01:59:12 Sikander: I know, it's a good time to code. 01:59:19 I understood a mirror to be a "physical" thing on the screen. a window or such. 01:59:39 I implemented realize-mirror and mirrors get created... 02:00:03 -!- ceineke__ [n=chris@24.235.36.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:03 Sikander: It's the device in your underlying windowing server that will be drawn upon. 02:00:12 but for some reason, transforms don't work properly. Should I also write methods that handle the transforms? 02:00:27 plage: exactly, I think I understand that part. 02:00:33 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@pool-108-2-120-130.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:56 Sikander: What part of transformations doesn't work? 02:01:41 plage: Erm, maybe it's not transforms... basically, layout doesn't work 02:01:50 plage: all mirrors are created on top of each other 02:01:57 (as far as I can see now) 02:01:59 Sikander: What is your backend? 02:02:05 plage: ncurses 02:02:30 plage: I can make windows in ncurses, move them around etc. 02:02:38 Sikander: I didn't realize ncurses could handle windows. 02:02:48 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:50 plage: but when I do it through mcclim, all sucks 02:02:56 -!- Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-txujikdfubmbideo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:03:00 Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ltjzmvuxdspytmfe] has joined #lisp 02:03:03 plage: well, mostly sucks. Some things work well 02:03:16 plage: Well, windows are basically parts of the screen 02:03:16 Sikander: Does ncurses really have windows with their own coordinate systems? 02:03:23 plage: yes 02:03:53 plage: it has a screen, which is basically the whole screen. Screen size is what I use for the graft size 02:03:59 I learn something every day. Well then, as long as you create them in the right place, that should just work. 02:04:14 plage: you can define parts of the screen (size and position) to write in. those are "windows" 02:04:30 Sikander: But do those things have their own coordinate systems? 02:04:34 plage: think of split-screen in mutt, vi or whatever 02:04:37 plage: yes 02:04:48 top left is 0,0 02:05:00 Sikander: Then I am guessing your problem is that you are not creating those windows in the right place. 02:05:03 which in the "graft" coordinate system is the position of the window 02:05:27 plage: See, that's where I'm probably screwing up. 02:05:31 Sikander: Does ncurses have nested windows? 02:05:40 plage: is there a _simple_ demo that I can try it out with? 02:05:45 plage: ah, no,,, 02:05:48 eh ... 02:05:58 Sikander: I am unaware of any demo. 02:06:46 plage: So does this mean I have to define a "container" mirror, that handles the coordinate system transformations for nested windows? 02:07:27 plage: ncurses can have windows, and windows in windows (in appearance only, though) 02:07:38 Sikander: You might be better off not using mirrors. CLIM/McCLIM should be able to handle that situation, where it just finds the root window and draws on it with the right transformation. McCLIM might not be tested in those situations though. 02:07:52 plage: so you cannot place a window inside a window using the latter window's coordinate system 02:08:12 plage: hmmm 02:08:24 Sikander: I think the CLIM idea of a mirror is that it is nested. 02:08:33 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA9D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 02:08:36 konr [n=user@187.88.89.186] has joined #lisp 02:08:49 plage: that means I can wrap a ncurses window in such a way that it behaves like a mirror, no? 02:08:56 aputtu [n=aputsiaq@88.83.11.59] has joined #lisp 02:09:06 Sikander: You should be able to do that. 02:09:44 plage: But should any of the transformation stuff be defined per backend, once you have a mirror? 02:10:26 plage: Wait... Isn't the point that you can have SHEETS which can be nested, but that a sheet can have a mirror? Mirrors don't need to be nested, right? only sheets do 02:10:40 Sikander: For drawing, things should just work. CLIM applies transformations until it finds a mirror. If the sheet has a direct mirror, then no transformation is applied (other than the user transformation). 02:11:05 plage: Exactly, so a mirror doesn't need to be able to "nest" 02:11:19 Sikander: The CLIM makes it possible to mirror or not mirror, and that should be independent of the nesting. 02:11:22 plage: that's the whole sheet business, right? 02:11:31 plage: sure 02:11:52 plage: but what I mean is, a mirror needs no knowledge of any parent 02:12:20 plage: you draw on sheets, and the sheet draws on its direct mirror or finds one with the proper transformation applied 02:12:37 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:12:37 Sikander: right, a mirror is where the buck stops. 02:12:44 plage: so mirrors don't need any knowledge of hierarchy, nesting and such 02:12:58 Sikander: But you have to take into account the sheet region to know where a sheet is positioned compared to its parent. 02:13:11 plage: the only thing is that in realize-mirror, it needs to be realized with the correct size and position 02:13:38 Sikander: Yes, and that's where you need the sheet region and sheet transformation. 02:14:01 plage: hmmm... In a test, I found that mcclim tries to create mirrors that are larger than the graft size. Is this... normal? 02:14:30 Sikander: Nothing prevents that. Sheets are clipped by their parents. 02:14:36 plage: ok 02:15:08 plage: So wait, what did you mean by "take into account the sheet region to know where a sheet is positioned compared to its parent"? Why does a mirror need such information? 02:15:10 Sikander: It would typically be the case for scrolled panes for instance. 02:15:18 plage: right 02:16:11 Sikander: The underlying display server needs to know where to create the new window (mirror) and how large to make it. That is what the sheet region and sheet transformation tell you. 02:16:28 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6F5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:17:22 plage: right. This is done in realize-mirror. My guess was that I implemented it correctly. While writing that I cheated and copy/pasted from the CLX and gtkairo backends 02:18:25 plage: The things like space-requirement, I don't have to do anything with that, right? That's calculated from the sheet? 02:18:43 Sikander: I think you are right. 02:19:15 plage: I mean, I use compose-space etc on the sheet to find out what it wants, and then apply that to the mirror (pos, size) 02:19:47 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 02:19:57 plage: Ok, well, then I think I'm doing something else wrong. I'll dig a bit more and see what's going on. Thanks very much for the help 02:20:10 Sikander: Pleasure. Good luck! 02:20:48 LiamH: Hey, haven't been doing much on either documentation or tests lately :( I've put all my coding time into the ncurses backend... 02:21:10 LiamH: ... which isn't of direct use to gsll :( 02:21:12 Sikander: NP. 02:21:24 Sikander: It would be great to run a text-only version of Climacs using such a backend. 02:21:43 Sikander: I'm ready to roll out GSD; the "grid" branch of GSLL uses it and all works as before. 02:22:14 I would really like to get all the mcclim demos in clim-examples working properly with the backend (without drawing...), that would be awesome! 02:22:28 Indeed! 02:22:32 Sikander: I did the documentation in texinfo, such as it is. I'm working on an announcement, which is a form of documentation, and not coming too easily. 02:22:34 LiamH: Cool! will GSLL change a lot? 02:22:53 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.89.186] has left #lisp 02:23:02 LiamH: What do you mean exactly? 02:23:05 Sikander: Not a bit on the surface, internally I moved foreign-array and friends over to the c-array system in GSD. 02:23:32 Sikander: What do I mean about what? 02:23:46 LiamH: So, this would make slicing easy, right? I saw tamas' post on related matters 02:24:03 LiamH: I meant what do you mean with the announcement/documentation stuff? 02:24:23 Sikander: Yes, it does. I saw his post too, and I've looked at his system, but it came out very near the end of my this phase of GSD. 02:24:57 Sikander: Oh, I'm trying to write up an announcement that adequately captures what GSD is for and how to use it, without being too long-winded. 02:25:09 LiamH: ah 02:25:19 LiamH: so you find texinfo to suck? 02:25:34 Sikander: No, on the contrary I think texinfo is excellent. 02:25:45 LiamH: but difficult? 02:26:11 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 02:26:14 LiamH: What was not coming too easily? The writing part, or the working with texinfo part? 02:26:18 Sikander: No, there's a learning curve of course, but there isn't that much too it. I started with one of their sample files and built up from there. 02:26:21 -!- Lufter [n=lufter@187.88.238.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:45 LiamH: yeah, when you know (la)tex, it's not that difficult to make the step. 02:26:48 Sikander: The writing part. Which is a problem because my other "holiday task" is writing a paper for a conference. 02:26:57 LiamH: aha... 02:27:22 Sikander: Some reason, I'm not in too much of a writing mood, but those are the tasks before me. 02:27:35 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442074.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 02:27:42 Oh, and recommendations for students... 02:28:17 LiamH: For me, watching cartoons always helps me get inspiration :D 02:28:32 LiamH: I don't know why, though 02:28:35 Yeah, I shut off the Simpsons though, rerun. 02:29:09 so does gsd use xarray, or is it a reimplementation of xarray, or...? 02:29:10 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:44 No, it uses Tamas's affi though. Xarray came out when I was about done with gsd. 02:30:02 D'oh! 02:30:27 If you want to get a sneak peak, look at http://repo.or.cz/w/gsd.git, and then grab the "grid" branch of GSLL. It should all work. 02:31:04 Great 02:31:43 My next programming (i.e. non-documentation) task is to try to fold in fe[nl]ix's static vectors, to replace the SBCL-only vector-sap. 02:31:55 nyef: the point is that we never have to determine whether we're looking at a header or a cons except during GC. It's not hard to add another allocation region for conses, and the runtime would never be affected. 02:31:55 pkhuong, memo from nyef: I fail to see it being "much" simpler, due to the extra complexity in having separate allocation regions for conses, stack allocation noise, still needing some of the widetags to be in lowtag space for things like characters, and so on. It also means that you effectively have two disjoint type systems for boxed words, and that may have issues as well. It would allow you to reclaim one 32-bit lowtag or thr 02:31:55 pkhuong, memo from nyef: 32-bit lowtag or three 64-bit lowtags, though, which isn't all bad. The 32-bit case is the possible win, for the instance-pointer lowtag in the wider-fixnum case. 02:32:01 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-53-23.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:32:24 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:33:19 LiamH: Ah, right. Once I get this ncurses backend in a state where I can temporarily leave it, I'm interested in helping on some documentation a la gsl. 02:33:31 Sikander: He's got support for five implementations. 02:33:44 LiamH: Oh, that's excellent! 02:33:48 LiamH: without copying? 02:34:18 Sikander: Good question... I assume no copying. 02:34:49 LiamH: Because as I understand, at this moment in GSLL, SBCL is the only one that doesn't copy, right? 02:34:56 Sikander: Yes 02:35:49 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 02:36:02 Sikander: There's a catch with static vectors though. In CCL for example, complex vectors aren't included. The #+native mechanism currently in GSLL (for SBCL only) doesn't make that fine a distinction -- either all vectors are native, or none are. 02:36:04 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.198.181] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:36:54 Sikander: So the work is going to be implementing native (static) vectors selectively by element type depending on the implementation. 02:37:09 LiamH: ugh... 02:37:22 minion: memo for nyef: the only part of the code that'd be affected are: 1. allocation (we need an additional region type for conses and a corresponding region) 2. GC: we don't have to look at the first word to determine whether we're looking at a cons or a header anymore. 02:37:22 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 02:37:24 LiamH: calls for a wrapper :D 02:37:56 Sikander: Anyway, all of this is going in the new system c-array, part of GSD, which lies "under" GSLL. So other foreign (C) libraries should be able to take advantage of it. 02:38:14 Sikander: This was the part that was mostly pulled out of GSLL. 02:38:21 LiamH: So GSD will be separate from GSLL then 02:38:26 aha 02:38:30 Sikander: Is now, yes. 02:38:57 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.45.41] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:39:21 LiamH: Ah, yes, I see, the repo url you gave me before is for GSD! I misread what you wrote earlier. 02:39:23 Sikander: I have a colleague who's written an interface to Orocos, a robotics library in C++, and I'm going to help him rewrite it using c-array. 02:39:48 LiamH: ah, a field test of gsd, eh? 02:40:08 Sikander: yes, to see if I made the separation in a smart way. 02:40:20 LiamH: nice 02:41:06 Sikander: go ahead and pull it, and read the gsd/documentation/grid/index.html and tell me what you think (it's incomplete, but the basics are there) 02:41:30 pkhuong: Again, how does this affect stack allocation, particularly with respect to the GC scavenging the stacks? 02:41:30 nyef, memo from pkhuong: the only part of the code that'd be affected are: 1. allocation (we need an additional region type for conses and a corresponding region) 2. GC: we don't have to look at the first word to determine whether we're looking at a cons or a header anymore. 02:41:37 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:08 nyef: not at all, for now. 02:42:23 The other question is, can we make the widetags wider? 02:42:44 At least, the widetags for heap object headers? 02:43:06 16 bits? On x86-64, for sure. On x86, it might be a bit tight. 02:43:25 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-88-84.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:43:46 64k words isn't a very bignum. 02:43:56 Not even that, just an extra bit or two. 02:44:39 how badly would that affect the size of the type checking code? 02:44:59 At the same time, what's our gain from this, just being able to retain instance-pointer-lowtags when we widen fixnums on 32-bit systems? 02:46:44 LiamH: So the grid can be an array of lists of objects (say, floats), but also an array of arrays of objects? Are these two only different in representation? 02:47:05 Sikander: Yes. 02:47:24 LiamH: Wait, I suddenly realise that that was a silly question... 02:47:30 nyef: I guess. 02:47:43 I'm sure no one would complain about extra lowtags. 02:48:12 LiamH: seems nice. I'll have to play a bit with it. But I'll do that tomorrow, or so. First... sleep! 02:48:27 Sikander: I understand, good night. 02:48:46 LiamH: Documentation, though not much, seems adequate to explain the principles, though :) 02:49:02 Ok, thanks for the help and such. Goodnight! 02:49:07 Sikander: That documentation is mostly there. 02:49:28 Well, it seems fine :) 02:49:31 bye 02:49:34 bye 02:49:35 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to sleep"] 02:51:35 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:59:18 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:00:04 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-154.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:12 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:04:24 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.221.84] has joined #lisp 03:06:38 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:08:00 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 03:10:52 -!- udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:11 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:15:55 CopropHAGE [n=cOPROpha@209.125.38.182] has joined #lisp 03:15:59 Tired of those feral negroid beasts and their monkeyshines? Are you uncomfortable with those Nazi-like groups? We have the forum for you! Chimpout Forum! At Chimpout we are not White Supremacists! We welcome anybody who isn't a nigger and who hates niggers! Thats right! At Chimpout we welcome the diversity of the human species by welcoming Asians, Jews, non-negroid Hispanics, Arabs, Semites, Whi 03:16:04 tes, Native Americans, Indians, etc. Basically we accept all races except for those fecal-colored Negros! Join us today in the epic battle of human vs. NIGGER! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 03:16:05 -!- CopropHAGE [n=cOPROpha@209.125.38.182] has quit [K-lined] 03:18:18 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:18:59 mooglenorph [n=marco@ip68-110-202-191.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:22 well 03:19:25 that was unexpected 03:20:16 lol 03:20:41 .clear 03:24:35 -!- snowbeard [n=user@cpe-076-182-111-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:26:54 minion: memo for Xach: the feed should work with your sanitiser, now. Can you try and see what happens when you put my blog back on the list? 03:26:54 Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks. 03:28:46 konr [n=user@187.88.89.186] has joined #lisp 03:30:13 oukkei 03:30:14 Xach, memo from pkhuong: the feed should work with your sanitiser, now. Can you try and see what happens when you put my blog back on the list? 03:30:21 maus_ [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has joined #lisp 03:31:25 pkhuong: looks better to me 03:31:38 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:39 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:41 that's much more sane, thanks! 03:34:55 I finally copied one method from the default sax unparser, but without the bit that only outputs a "/>". 03:36:14 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d816608.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:35 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d818a35.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:42:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 03:43:56 plage [n=user@123.19.45.41] has joined #lisp 03:44:10 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:46:12 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:46:25 Xach: how do i get the vecto examples to work via emacs/slime? i have all the modules installed from previous attempts but the instructions don't seem to indicate how I need to tell the slime session to be aware of them? 03:47:52 holycow: you have to load them in. 03:48:29 at the slime REPL, ",load-system" 03:48:46 huh, let me try that ... googling 03:49:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:52:18 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-28-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:52:22 dys`` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72e4f3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:31 -!- Hun [n=hun@80.153.55.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:46 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-57-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:03:22 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-154-149.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:59 is there anything I can read to see the pros/cons of using clx vs binding to xlib? 04:04:35 clx doesn't use ffi 04:04:42 right 04:04:43 i don't need any other pros 04:04:59 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:14 I think I remember hearing that clx doesn't support some things that could be considered important for some kinds of apps. 04:05:21 specifically, graphics/opengl apps. 04:05:49 It looks like the X11 protocol was written with Lisp in mind, and Xlib is not a great match to the protocol. It therefore seems strange to go over Xlib. 04:06:06 it was? :-o 04:06:47 *hmmm* okay so i have sbcl installed on this ubuntu environment, i'm trying to run through the vecto examples that xach setup. i tried ",load-system" in the slime window and then c-c c-c to compile but it is looking for zpb-ttf package which (first one in the list) which is installed. what am i not understanding about asdf and sbcl environment here? do i need to define the central-registry for the environment? i would of thought it would of been aware of it 04:07:39 -!- dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72d397.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 04:08:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 04:08:44 you are repeatedly mentioning some environment, what environment? 04:09:52 terminology crossbleed from other areas. sorry. not complaining, just used to simple scripting and not a real programming environment 04:10:09 holycow: so, what system did you load? 04:11:57 well, 'what system' i find confusing. i am assuming that having used asdf to install a dozen or so packages over the last few weeks, that sbcl (and slime as well) would be aware of the packages in the .sbcl directory. likewise, i am assuming that running ",load-system" would load the "system as defined locally by whatever is on .sbcl" 04:12:33 holycow: ,load-system lets you load a system. You still have to specify which one. 04:12:57 oh 04:13:22 loading vecto is probably a good first step. 04:13:52 should i stop using the term modules? 04:14:04 when i install something via asdf, what is that considered? 04:14:08 if you're not talking about modules 04:14:34 holycow: http://weitz.de/packages.html 04:14:42 danke, reading 04:14:57 oh perfect. thx. 04:16:09 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:16:14 note: please bear with us noobs that don't have the context understood for a lot of what you guys talk about. you give the technically correct answers and should not have to give the context to each answer. just understand a few of us have a longer road to travel before the context is understood. 04:16:17 and thanks for your help 04:16:19 :) 04:17:28 everyone was a novice at some point 04:17:36 -!- quek [n=read_eva@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:17:56 minion: tell holycow about clbuild 04:17:57 holycow: look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 04:18:17 aha. added to reading. danke 04:19:01 jso [n=user@host-66-45-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:42 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.101] has joined #lisp 04:19:51 moogleno1ph [n=marco@ip68-110-202-191.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:14 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:20:20 um. Does CLX have gl extension support? <_< 04:21:09 It has been 2 years since I used it, but I believe it does. I did have some pretty things back then. 04:21:15 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:16 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:24 sykopomp: I think it does, but it might not be very well documented. 04:21:44 <_3b> does it implement the client side of any interesting extensions though? 04:23:01 _3b: I think it implements the render extensions for one thing. 04:23:02 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@ip68-110-202-191.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:23:21 But again, the documentation is skimpy. 04:23:43 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["sleep"] 04:25:49 Balllech. Trying to do a reader macro + compiling, and getting the error: don't know how to dump 04:25:51 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:25:54 <_3b> plage: i mean GL extensions 04:26:04 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.132.216] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:26:12 Does the usage of a reader macro also have to be in an eval-when :execute? 04:26:25 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:26:36 <_3b> plage: like if you want to map a VBO into writable memory, or upload into a compressed texture 04:26:52 *_3b* isn't sure which things are actually handled by client and which by server though 04:26:58 herbieB: for one thing, it should be defined before you are trying to use it 04:27:37 stassats: It's been defined earlier in the file in an eval-when block. 04:28:13 stassats: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)) ... 04:28:37 _3b: I'm afraid I don't know. 04:28:58 herbieB: paste your code? 04:29:17 mooglenorph [n=marco@ip68-110-202-191.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:35 herbieB pasted "Confused By Reader Macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92707 04:31:07 If you compile that file and load it into an interpreter, you'll get my error 04:35:16 -!- aputtu [n=aputsiaq@88.83.11.59] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:36:03 Ahhhh, that's why. 04:36:22 clhs 3.2.4.1 04:36:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bda.htm 04:36:22 It should be backquoted, whoops. Having a reader macro return an actual object is bad. 04:37:32 -!- jso [n=user@host-66-45-2-96.midco.net] has quit ["beer!"] 04:39:00 But I have no idea how that clhs entry answers my question one way or the other :P 04:39:02 oh now i see what i was doing to get lispbuilder to work 04:39:04 well well 04:39:08 thank you everyone 04:40:36 -!- moogleno1ph [n=marco@ip68-110-202-191.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:40 moogleno1ph [n=marco@ip68-110-202-191.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:38 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.45.41] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:41:40 clhs make-load-form 04:41:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm 04:41:56 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 04:42:02 herbieB: that's how you can solve your problem 04:43:43 Ah, thanks :) 04:45:05 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-109-64-113-230.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:52:53 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@ip68-110-202-191.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:22 demmeln1 [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-122-243.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:17 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:55 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-043-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:57:14 Fare [n=Fare@adsl-71-135-54-93.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:23 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 05:02:48 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:03:19 shortsightedsid [i=c0a314e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-fudimorifdupapck] has joined #lisp 05:06:35 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:07:11 -!- PuffTheMagic [n=quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:15:02 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:15:47 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:48 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 05:21:46 bbe_ [n=bbe@117.87.56.219] has joined #lisp 05:21:53 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:23:22 c|mell [n=cmell@115.132.26.195] has joined #lisp 05:25:27 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 05:28:06 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.84.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:16 Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@109.58.31.82.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 05:30:17 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:31:13 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 05:32:23 -!- shortsightedsid [i=c0a314e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-fudimorifdupapck] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 05:32:36 so, been poking around vecto to see how stuff is pulled together. i can't find where it saves the output (i think its /tmp but not sure where this is set). the examples file has functions similar to this: (defun feedlike-icon (file) ... based on examples online i should be able to call the function with (feedlike-icon (test.png)) or similar. anyone familiar with vecto enough to clue me in where the files are stored and how to run the functions without error? 05:32:46 the examples.lisp compiles with 0 errors 05:33:40 well, it's saved in the file you specify 05:34:28 what don't you understand about feedlike-icon example? 05:35:13 well i've tried permutations of syntax to have the function to execute. so for example: (feedlike-icon (/tmp/test)) and (feedlike-icon '(/tmp/test.png)) 05:35:38 all attempts to run the function generate errors in slime 05:35:44 well, obviously it should be (feedlike-icon "/tmp/test.png") 05:36:10 minion: please tell holycow about PCL 05:36:10 holycow: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:36:52 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:22 yeah, i've gone through the firs number of chapters in tehre and the casting spels tutorials. (feedlike-icon "/tmp/test.png") generates errors too. 05:37:34 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 05:37:45 what errors? 05:38:18 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:38:29 holycow: i suggest you to read at least first 20 chapters of PCL before asking questions here 05:39:07 maybe i should just move over to cl-gardeners 05:39:50 maybe, but it's really much easier just to read it 05:40:03 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:28 http://pastebin.ca/1729155 i got that error .. posting before i drop off the radar i guess 05:42:04 that's the error i was expecting 05:42:40 (vecto::feedlike-icon "/tmp/test.png") if feedlike-icon is defined inside vecto package 05:43:19 allright, i'll stop buggin you. i totally don't have a clue and this handholding isn't appropriate here 05:43:22 thx for the help 05:49:58 Adamant 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joined #lisp 08:55:14 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-175-91.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:38 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-175-91.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:56:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:43 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:06:03 mjsor [n=mjsor@70-56-255-61.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:46 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:15:05 |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:06 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@70-56-255-61.eugn.qwest.net] has quit [] 09:19:46 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 09:20:04 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:22:12 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.89.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:22:59 -!- ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:27:51 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28:17 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 09:30:51 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.3.186] has joined #lisp 09:32:03 ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:35:24 hi Inostdal 09:36:54 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:39:34 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA8CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 09:42:05 ey Younder 09:44:23 Axius [n=ade@92.82.69.13] has joined #lisp 09:45:25 just studied kill, killall, pkill and xkill 09:45:34 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:45:39 must be the hangover.. 09:45:54 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:19 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:47:49 anyhow not having to look up the PID is nice. pkill xterm to kill all gnome-terminals or xkill and click on the window you want to go away 09:49:19 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:20 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:50:22 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-195-206.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:50:25 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:26 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:50:45 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:45 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:50:45 no serious programming this Xmas, so basically maintenance, like iptables and psad configuration 09:51:45 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:52:19 come january things change, when the cray ps1 arrives.. 09:53:57 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:11 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 09:55:20 cray ps1? 09:56:52 i guess something unrelated to lisp... 09:57:06 cx1 09:58:24 attila_lendvai, at least until you have good multiprocession and acceleration support. 09:59:56 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:59:57 supporting CUDA and SSE4 is importand 10:00:45 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:02:09 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:02:13 new data mining initiative, it's a approx 150 000 000 $ market and us norskies want a slice 10:02:35 rares1 [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:05 -!- rares1 is now known as rares 10:03:26 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.45.41] has left #lisp 10:03:34 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-175-71.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:32 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 10:06:14 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.69.13] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:06:25 bbe__ [n=bbe@117.87.56.219] has joined #lisp 10:07:36 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B27C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:01 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BC73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:14 Fun 'toy' and I will try to purswade them to use the pepido enginge from franz. (REALLY coluld use multiprocessig) 10:10:31 http://www.franz.com/products/pepito/ 10:12:48 seems like that's more of being drunk early than a hangover... :) 10:16:02 attila_lendvai, well some repair beers helped. 10:19:42 meh .. go for SSE1 from 1999 (that's 11 years ago now ..hmmmh..); just throw more machines at it like google does -- or something :) 10:20:26 *lnostdal* doesn't know whether SBCL can generate SSE1 type code, though .. 10:20:42 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@cpc2-dals3-0-0-cust104.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:30 not sure it is terribly important -- well, at least not for me :P 10:22:00 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@i59F78573.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:22:23 ..and i guess a .so written in C and compiled used GCC (which does support SSE4 IIRC) and added via CFFI would be fine.. 10:22:27 Doesn't seem so very important to put time and effort into. If one wanted all that then it seems wiser to dedicate the time to get good CUDA interaction.. no? 10:22:31 using GCC* 10:23:04 fiveop [n=fiveop@81.163.115.212] has joined #lisp 10:24:10 *lnostdal* doesn't know 10:24:28 Seems to be much the same thing, just lots faster and/or better :) 10:24:44 are custom drivers and stuff needed to get it to work? .. closed compilers? .. i'm sort of tired of crashing video driver stuff :P 10:24:49 -!- bbe_ [n=bbe@117.87.56.219] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:16 lnostdal, well gcc is devoloped mostly by google these days (which ises it in it kerberos clusters) so it gets rapid assimulation of the laes hardware 10:25:32 Hmm.. I'm not 100% sure. I've only done C work with it, and I just use the nvidia sdk and it kinda works out. But someone told me that you can just get hold of the "asm" specs and hardcode whatever. 10:26:25 i saw some talk about a LLVM backend for SBCL recently btw., Younder .. i have no idea if that "automatically" would mean "more SSE support", though :P 10:27:22 (..and in any case it was experimental; a test to see whether the author could get it to even work .. i think..) 10:27:26 Seems to me that maybe ICC is a better choice to keep up with all the new fancy extensions Intel spits out. (: 10:27:57 hey! i run AMD here :) .. first upgrade since 2005/6 .. Phenom 2 .. SSE4a or something :P 10:28:15 oh my. 10:28:21 The last AMD owner in the world (: 10:28:43 :< .. well, people do use AMD on servers, no? heh 10:28:47 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:29:17 (.. as in not 0.001% market share or so ..) 10:29:27 Ya I guess :) for now. 10:30:37 AMD has a large share of the server and super computer market. They are not going away for a while. 10:31:08 there are a few laptops w/ amd, but probably not for long. 10:31:32 well, maybe intel will keep getting fined... 10:31:40 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:16 yeah, i've been very happy with AMD on my desktop here too .. better value for money is my impression -- and i don't need the "100% absolute best there possible is at the moment" type hardware anyway 10:32:27 Like the roadrunner, a IBM SP running at a pentaflop al AMD and S3. That alone coud supply a company. 10:33:13 Los alamos national lab 10:33:20 lnostdal: It does seem one needs the CUDA driver. But it is available on linux. and it works just fine (: 10:33:32 ok, schme 10:33:39 my argument for intel is power consumption. 10:33:46 madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has joined #lisp 10:35:30 cuda gives supercomputer performance to the humble desktop. Linear algebra, thermo and hudodynamics, meteronlogy, physics simulations and grahics benefit greatly (several hundreds of time speedup) from SIMD vector tecknology 10:36:20 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:36:40 Like a GpGPU like Quatro or better still Tesla. Or for us morals A GForce. 10:37:45 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.221.84] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:38:13 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-195-206.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:38:34 i'd wait for GeForce 300 i think .. "The chip features ECC protection on the memory, and is believed to be 400% faster than previous Nvidia chips in double-precision floating point operations; with these features, combined with support for Visual Studio and C++, Nvidia hopes to appeal to the High-Performance Computer users who might presently be using Tesla systems." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_300_Series ) 10:40:29 -!- Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:42:53 lnostdal, tesla has just increased it double floating performance 8 times release first semester of 2010 10:44:34 mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 10:44:41 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-195-206.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:44:53 anyhow tesla is unique in being a graphics card with NO graphics output. (a gpGPU) ie, it needs a seperate greaphics card.. 10:45:18 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:57 tesla 2 10:47:13 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 10:47:15 just salivating like a RoboDog.. 10:52:06 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-195-206.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Down periscopes...."] 11:01:28 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #lisp 11:01:58 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:17 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 11:09:54 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:11:49 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:20:15 -!- konichiwa [n=jdoe@180.94.203.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:22:31 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:25 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:23:41 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@81.163.115.212] has quit ["humhum"] 11:30:10 (defun rebuild-top-menu () 11:30:10 (eval (read-from-string 11:30:10 "(progn 11:30:10 (maps::reset.stored.top.menus) 11:30:13 (maps::update.background.menu.bar 11:30:16 (maps::find.background) 11:30:24 crap 11:30:37 sorry about that. 11:30:40 minion: tell luis about lisppaste 11:30:40 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 11:30:48 jdz: very funny 11:31:06 hmmm, secret company code snippet... :) 11:31:16 luis: you now owe us your code! 11:31:38 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:40 attila_lendvai: *sssshh* 11:32:19 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BC73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:59 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:37:45 Younder: ATi/AMD has FireStream cards - they also plan on putting a FireStream core or rather a mix between FireStream and Radeon on CPU 11:37:56 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B27C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:47:11 p_l: You mean a combined CPU/GPU on one chip? 11:50:43 pbusser: yes, with possible server models with compute-only FireStream chips either in HT sockets or embedded as extra core 11:54:32 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:55:16 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 12:02:37 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:13:14 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:15:22 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:21:40 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:46 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d90-129-209-54.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 12:23:16 p_l: Sounds interesting. 12:25:54 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:27:38 Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has joined #lisp 12:28:39 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-80.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:28:48 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #lisp 12:39:20 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-216-227-122-213.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:28 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 12:45:45 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:47 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 13:02:08 -!- plediii [n=user@casentino.rice.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:05:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-33-135.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 13:06:20 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["leaving"] 13:07:49 Terminus [n=justin@124.6.152.90] has joined #lisp 13:08:36 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:49 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:09:04 konr [n=user@187.88.72.23] has joined #lisp 13:14:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:14:51 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B27C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:40 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host203-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:18:49 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:19:50 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:20:24 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.13] has joined #lisp 13:24:50 ciao a tutti carlocci 13:25:23 Axius [n=ade@92.82.75.228] has joined #lisp 13:26:05 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.75.228] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:26:45 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.221.84] has joined #lisp 13:29:50 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:30:08 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 13:31:46 Axius [n=ade@92.82.75.228] has joined #lisp 13:32:15 mikezor [n=mikael@c-24ed70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:32:59 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.75.228] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 13:33:13 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 13:33:43 Axius [n=ade@92.82.75.228] has joined #lisp 13:34:34 prip_ [n=_prip@host203-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:36:23 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-122-243.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:23 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:36:59 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-122-243.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 13:37:01 In Let Over Lambda, it is said that when using a Lisp-1, we need to double check for functions and macros colliding with other things and therefore it is inferior to Lisp-2. Isn't this just a matter of always using gensym, making the Lisp-1 or -2 issue simply not a big deal? 13:38:14 well, it is up to you to decide i guess. 13:38:28 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 13:38:47 i guess most Scheme people can not simply fathom why you would like a variable and function name to be the same. afaik, it's basically the same as in C. 13:39:57 nil 13:40:01 oops 13:40:59 hefner_ [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-109-144.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:42:06 not an issue to worry about tho if you want to learn Common Lisp. do not let Scheme influence you, or you'll just write as uggly code as the Schemers do. :) 13:42:41 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B27C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:43:42 hypno: haha, people make it such a big deal that I get the impression that I'm missing the point 13:47:29 most newbies that come to CL start out with a critique of it. they contrast stuff in CL with Scheme or something else and extrapolate conclusions in all possible directions. this is part of the "make your mind up about which lisp to use"-process, and to be comfortable with your chooice, you need something to debate. 13:47:34 hence, 13:47:38 all that stuff doesn't mean much really. 13:50:50 -!- bbe__ [n=bbe@117.87.56.219] has quit [""] 13:52:03 konr: Lisp-2 is a compromise which trades simplicity for better optimised code generation. 13:53:26 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 13:53:37 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:55:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-38-17.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:57:04 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-80.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:35 -!- hefner_ is now known as hefner 14:02:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-38-17.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:03:18 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 14:05:18 -!- Terminus [n=justin@124.6.152.90] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:07:55 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.248.82] has joined #lisp 14:08:23 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host203-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:07 prip_ [n=_prip@host148-120-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:09:15 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d90-129-209-54.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:04 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213142124035.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 14:11:10 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:13:10 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.75.228] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:13:11 umm, is there a pathnames operation to move files? 14:13:19 (as opposed to copy & delete) 14:13:34 fe[nl]ix: shall I merge the hemlock commits from your repo? 14:14:03 yes 14:14:11 mathrick: do you really think it's a good idea involving loopy CL pathname objects with destructive filesystem operations? 14:14:42 pbusser: what? It has nothing to do with optimised code and all with whether you think they're separate namespaces or not and what that entails 14:14:43 lichtblau: I think I'm going to take care of the I/O stuff in hemlock 14:14:47 hefner: come again? 14:15:11 nevermind. 14:15:27 mathrick: rename-file 14:15:29 mathrick: actually there's _only_ rename-file (not copy-file) in CL, unless you count alexandria. 14:15:43 fe[nl]ix: that sounds nice. How much is there to take care of? 14:16:09 Krystof: ah, that'd be it, thanks 14:16:52 I assume it does what I expect it to on posix systems? 14:17:23 lichtblau: yeah, I got that mixed up with CL-FAD stuff 14:17:37 I basically never touch pathnames, hence my lack of familiarity 14:17:40 I don't know what you expect 14:18:03 it's not exactly the same as rename(2), if that's what you mean 14:18:25 fe[nl]ix: Things that I'm aware of are: Bad (i.e., non-existent) error handling when something is wrong with an fd. Need to clear out closed connections, at least on user request. And I just discovered some slowness -- but I haven't retested that after nikodemus fixes, perhaps that problem is gone now. 14:18:26 lichtblau: rewrite Dired, finish implementing mmap'd file streams in iolib and use them in hemlock, etc... 14:19:41 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 lichtblau: btw, I can't compile hemlock.base because «Symbol "*COMMAND-PARSER-HOOKS*" not found in the PREPL package» - in rompsite.lisp 14:22:18 fe[nl]ix: oops, sorry. Try pulling prepl again. 14:22:49 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:22:52 What that does is that the repl can invoke hemlock commands (only if running in hemlock, obviously). 14:23:11 works 14:23:54 And perhaps more interestingly, it allows hemlock to specifically override prepl commands with buffer versions, e.g. ,apropos foo gets turned into "Slave Apropos". 14:25:39 shrughes [n=shrughes@pool-108-2-120-130.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:41 lichtblau: there's a typo in lispeval.lisp line 251 14:25:43 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:12 fe[nl]ix: yeah, and something in grep.lisp and I need to sort out when merging nikodemus' better version of the same commit. Sorry about that. 14:28:06 -!- maus_ [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:28:15 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 14:29:05 fe[nl]ix: btw, I never sent you my iolib commit's because I haven't written tests for them. Since you can run hemlock, does that mean you found my tarball? 14:29:23 mathrick: Common Lisp makes many trade-offs in favour of performance. A number of them are described in the book Lisp in Small Pieces. Lisp-2 is one of them. 14:29:48 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:01 lichtblau: I haven't started hemlock yet, just peeking at the code :) 14:31:03 sounds a bit clear cut. what about symbolic processing? (Schemers rarely do this, from what I understand) 14:31:11 lichtblau: and I haven't found your tarball 14:31:30 hypno: What do you mean with 'symoblic processing'? 14:32:42 pbusser: uhh, not really. There are many reasons to have lisp-2 other than performance. In fact, I'd never list performance as a reason to be lisp-2 14:32:46 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:33:07 shortsightedsid [n=shortsig@122.172.147.124] has joined #lisp 14:33:50 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:34:26 mathrick: So which other reasons are you talking about? 14:36:38 Common Lisp standardized stuff that the vendors involved with it already had implemented or were able to adopt reasonably easily. 14:36:49 Even if it were technically accurate to say that Lisp-2 has performance advantages (a bold claim that you'd have to back up with more than a vague LiSP reference), there's no way that particular committee would even have been in a position to choose Lisp-1 over Lisp-2. 14:37:27 lichtblau: I didn't say that they were in the position to choose, nor that they should. 14:37:33 pbusser: for instance semantic clarity, the ability to use meaningful names instead of ones that don't clash 14:37:48 lichtblau: If someone is offended by Lisp-2, then there is Scheme. 14:38:44 thoolihan [n=thooliha@66.181.74.184] has joined #lisp 14:38:48 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:39:11 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 14:39:58 ... performance advantage to a Lisp-2? Not at runtime, clearly, given that they're semantically equivalent. 14:40:14 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.160.162.2] has joined #lisp 14:40:41 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.160.162.2] has left #lisp 14:43:16 fe[nl]ix: http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/iolib-for-hemlock.git 14:46:26 lichtblau: have you used hemlock when editing iolib ? 14:47:03 not certain, I've been switching back and forth. (Is something off with the indentation or spaces?) 14:47:34 you've insterted tabs all over the place 14:48:46 oh dear. time to implement indent-tabs-mode: nil in hemlock then. 14:49:30 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:49:39 I was thinking of sending you an grand untabifying patch, but it seems that I'll have to wait :) 14:50:12 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B27C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:53 heh, crazy programmers .. the minute one try to touch some non-lisp code (damn javascript ..) it is sprinkled with tab characters everywhere :P 14:51:44 So, it occurred to me that it might be possible to have git fix up whitespace damage prior to all commits in SBCL. 14:52:40 pre-commit-hook? 14:53:21 yeah, it would be quite foolish to detabify without having a pre-commit-hook to ensure future conformance to that policy 14:55:14 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:55:53 lichtblau: 2.4 is the section that i remember on the topic 14:56:03 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213142124035.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:15 slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1CE49.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:13 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 15:00:20 CL-USER> (let ((*random-state* (make-instance '/dev/urandom-state))) 15:00:20 (random most-positive-fixnum)) 15:00:20 128129668 15:00:28 still not convinced that this is _useful_, but... 15:00:59 seeding from urandom or actually using urandom every time? 15:01:17 that one is actually using urandom every time 15:01:22 seeding from urandom is clearly useful 15:01:29 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:00 (the snippet is more to illustrate that I have some kind of protocol for random states, and can instantiate wacky ones using make-instance) 15:02:08 Cool! 15:02:14 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:19 cool, but what about useful? 15:02:24 every time is certainly useful, although a OS-neutral name may be better, so that all the SBCL/win32 hackers can add the CryptGenRandom version. 15:02:27 (make-instance 'constantly-4-random-state)...? 15:02:46 nyef: sure :-) 15:02:58 ("Chosen by fair die roll, guaranteed to be correct.") 15:03:19 Krystof: having a more convenient way of getting a repeatble random sequence seems useful. 15:04:00 luis: (make-instance 'generated-sequence-random-state :generator (lambda (x) ...)) ? 15:04:56 right now I save the random-state array (or is it a struct), but it's a bit inconvenient. 15:06:06 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-168-52.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:57 Krystof: I can't say that I'd switch to that at work, because of the unfortunate requirement of supporting impls other than SBCL, but we're using (u)random and CryptGenRandom, and it would have helped at the time if someone else had been there already. 15:07:27 (make-instance 'some-random-state :seed some-integer) would be convenient 15:07:58 lichtblau: bah 15:11:39 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:13 Having been bitten by accidental re-use of random-states and poor seeding before, I'd love to be able to set the *random-state* at server startup time to something that can't be affected by that sort of issue though, not even considering the situations where actual cryptographic strength is wanted. 15:14:14 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:15:28 -!- madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has quit ["leaving"] 15:16:42 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:17:57 I'm unable to setup asdf-install on CCL Win32. 15:18:03 Following steps from http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf-install/tutorial/setup.html 15:18:16 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 15:18:28 Have anyone tried setting up asdf-install on windows and ccl? 15:19:17 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:22 It says OpenMCL has asdf-install by default. I can see it present in my installation. 15:20:34 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-109-144.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:20:40 The loading of asdf-install doesn't seem to work. 15:22:19 Any thoughts? 15:25:59 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-168-52.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:12 why (eq 'foo 'foo) is true and (eq '#:foo '#:foo) is false? Aren't 'foo and '#:foo both constants? 15:27:48 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-168-52.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:27:53 when the reader reads #:foo, it creates a new symbol 15:28:30 if it reads it twice, two different symbols are created 15:28:50 okay, ;; -*- indent-tabs-mode: t -*- 15:29:18 argh, mispaste. Anyway, what I wanted to say was that it's a ten-liner in hemlock. Problem solved. 15:30:16 clhs #: 15:30:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm 15:30:26 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BC73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:08 adeht: thanks! 15:32:23 lichtblau: I've committed your changes 15:32:29 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:32:40 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 15:34:42 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1CE49.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:38:17 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:47:12 francogrex [n=user@40.88-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 15:47:38 how do you rate the "The Common Lisp Cookbook" as a good strating book for beginners? 15:47:41 nyef pasted "wider fixnum test suite results" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92720 15:47:49 starting. 15:48:58 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:11 francogrex: Practical Common Lisp is probably a better way to start learning Lisp. It's available on-line and in the form of dead trees. 15:49:23 rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:58 pbusser ok I have that, read it some time ago 15:50:00 *nyef* starts a clean build of upstream HEAD in order to get a baseline for test comparison. 15:50:21 so you think The Common Lisp Cookbook is incomplete? 15:50:29 pkhuong: Ping? 15:50:29 francogrex: BTW, CLiki has a list of on-line books. 15:50:40 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:51:18 francogrex: The CL Cookbook is good if you've forgotten something in particular. 15:51:19 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-28-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:51:20 francogrex: I haven't looked at it closely. I think all Lisp books are incomplete, because there is simply too much to describe when it comes to Common Lisp. :-) 15:53:26 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-35-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:53:26 pbusser: how about, hm, CLtL2? 15:54:11 I don't know, I haven't read it. But from what I read on the Internet it describes CL before it was standardised and is not entirely accurate. 15:54:27 nyef? 15:54:31 Ah. 15:54:35 Was just about to memo. 15:54:49 I've just pushed another rewrite of the lowtag branch history. 15:55:04 oh that looks good 15:55:05 I've included all but two of the change hunks from that last patch you gave me. 15:55:11 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-28-118.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:55:41 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.221.84] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:56:58 the last one would fix arith.pure.lisp 15:57:01 If the test suite starts coming up clean, or at least no dirtier, do you think it'd be time to start discussing how we want to merge everything to CVS? 15:57:12 Yeah, I figured as much, but didn't want to apply it sight-unseen. 15:57:28 what was wrong with foreign calls, btw? 15:57:37 foreign calls? 15:57:39 I'd be interested to hear a writeup about your workflow 15:58:06 mornfall_ [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 15:58:06 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:58:10 mm.. I have some issues about stack alignment on darwin. 15:58:33 let me pull and see if it still happens 15:58:39 ... I think that darwin is the only platform with the extra-nasty alignment requirement. 15:59:19 it's 16 byte + 12 byte misalignment? 16:00:29 Not sure. There's nothing darwin-specific about the alignment. 16:00:41 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:50 blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:17 Turns out I messed up the fix for allocate-static-vector, there was a scale by word-shift where it should have been a fixnumize. 16:03:11 Krystof: What would you be interested in seeing in such a writeup? 16:05:22 the basic commands and repository setup you used; the things you or git did that made collaborating possible/easy/straightforward; the things that weren't easy or straightforward and thoughts about why 16:06:21 this is regarding the eventual switch; so that (a) we can recommend a way of working with git to newcomers for sbcl and (b) set up our repository in a maximally useful way for committers 16:06:49 multiple remotes on a single repo makes collaboration simple. 16:06:59 ... I think a lot of what wasn't easy or straightforward were actually problems with SBCL and not git. 16:07:09 we stuck to a centralised model where I pushed to nyef and pulled from his repo. 16:07:39 see, you're at the absolute limits of my experience there 16:07:52 Mmm... And we either talked about what the changes that I needed to make were, or pkhuong put a patch file in his webspace somewhere. 16:07:54 I don't know how many sbcl contributors don't have much git experience 16:08:02 but it's probably more than just me 16:09:00 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:09:04 There's been a number of things that I ran into in terms of SBCL itself on this project that are already in CVS. 16:09:41 I'm not worried about what's in sbcl itself 16:10:03 -!- mornfall_ is now known as mornfall 16:10:03 well, not in this respect anyway 16:10:20 Yeah, but the process of extracting stuff from one tree and pushing it to origin/master would probably be important. 16:10:41 nyef: that's actually really nicely handled 16:10:46 nyef annotated #92720 "baseline test results" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92720#1 16:10:48 cherrypick and rebase -i. 16:11:06 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:39 Didn't even use cherrypick. rebase -i and then the fact that cvs-export takes an arbitrary commit id or the ability to pipe the output of git diff through patch has been very helpful. 16:12:00 The stash has also been helpful. 16:12:22 dys``` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7340c4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:50 pkhuong: These arith.pure.lisp changes are all s/n-lowtag-bits/n-fixnum-tag-bits/, aren't they? 16:14:00 yes. 16:14:17 Okay, that should be easy enough. 16:15:02 I'll commit that as soon as I've tested it (rebuilding the current tree now). 16:17:17 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:17:52 -!- francogrex [n=user@40.88-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:26 pkhuong: What is it that helps you master the complexity of multiple remotes? I.e., why doesn't this turn an O(1) operation (dealing with rel to central repo) into an O(n^2) operation (mastering all the pairwise interactions)? 16:21:40 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.255.254] has joined #lisp 16:21:49 rpg: what pairwise interaction? 16:21:59 pkhuong: pairwise across all pairs of repos. 16:22:12 I got that. It's the interaction I don't see. 16:22:15 rpg: Because you only deal with the relationship between two trees at once. 16:22:26 And that's the worst-case scenario. 16:22:27 nyef: why is that sufficient? 16:22:48 E.g., let's say I have my github repo, my laptop and my desktop.... How does pairwise work here? 16:22:51 It's just like branches in a centralised repo, except that they're not on a centralised repo. 16:23:01 splittist [n=dmurray@AMontsouris-553-1-54-117.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:23:03 morning 16:23:21 pkhuong: But why would I want my laptop and my desktop to be on different branches? 16:23:37 rpg: I have dozens of branches on my computers. 16:23:48 And pairwise isn't really the whole story. 16:23:51 And work on them concurrently. I don't understand the question. 16:23:58 hi splittist 16:24:02 -!- dys`` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72e4f3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 16:24:09 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:24:12 rpg: because there's "that stuff I worked on during vacation", and "this neat thing I was coding at night at home". two branches :) 16:24:15 The only operations that even need more than one tree are merges and rebases. 16:24:16 E.g., when I rebase, I /must/ take into account the interaction with my github repo, or I can end up confusing the world. 16:24:45 rpg: either don't rewrite history, or put a warning to the effect that you could rewrite history at any time. 16:24:46 nyef: Do you see the example there? That was in response to your "pairwise is sufficient" claim. 16:24:55 I think the answer there is "never rebase anything public" 16:25:00 rpg: in this case you can simplify as a tree. github being the root and your laptop and desktop being two branches 16:25:06 for a suitable definition of "public" 16:25:18 Krystof: Right, but if you rebase your private copy, you can mess up its interaction with the public one. 16:25:18 Right, if you rebase something public then you have to tell the public to do a full re-fetch. 16:25:29 The safe operations for a public branch is simple to define. 16:25:33 That's what push -f is for. 16:26:02 rpg: ok, I've never encountered that, maybe because my experience is too limited 16:26:12 rpg: you rebase whatever you want, except the public part (and even then, you can work around that) 16:26:19 I'm ok with paying complexity for greater capabilities, but I think it's OK to concede that the peer-to-peer scheme /is/ more complex than centralized. 16:26:28 if course it is 16:26:35 s/if/of/ 16:26:48 but it's not *that* more complex 16:26:54 and it simplifies other cases, too 16:27:15 rpg: the model I see is a central repo for large public consumption and peer to peer for small-scale development. 16:28:02 Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@109.58.31.82.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 16:28:21 Krystof: WRT that example --- I once tried to rebase my asdf working repo to make a clean patch for gwking, and then found that the rebase to be clean in that way had caused my working repo to have drifted from my public github repo. 16:28:50 -!- Cinnober [i=HydraIRC@109.58.31.82.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:51 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as Cinnober 16:29:04 rpg: why did you rebase? You could have created a new branch from gwking's and brought your patches on top of (a branch of) that. 16:29:08 This seems like a good example of additional complexity of using git. I'm not saying that's bad --- just that it would be nice to have recipes for handling that kind of case. 16:29:29 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl826.nas981.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 16:29:36 pkhuong: I think you are implicitly answering my request for recipe.... 16:30:49 The recipe wrt your public branch (on github) is: don't rebase (or rewrite history any other way, except at the tip). 16:31:42 pkhuong: and the recipe wrt working against a remote repo is that it's ok to spawn a new branch to mirror the remote, and rebase happily on top of that to make clean patches? 16:32:40 Right. When you clone a remote repo to initialise yours, you get a master branch that tracks the remote, and you just branch off of that + rebase for development. 16:32:53 You can do the same with any number of remotes. 16:33:13 pkhuong: I think I need to more deeply grok how to copy patches off one branch and onto another.... 16:33:16 it is an expanded version of this kind of stuff that I am after 16:33:31 I know some of this, but only from a one-person project context 16:34:14 ... I really dislike the test suite sometimes. 16:34:35 "The assertion (EQ (EVAL `(LOGBITP ,INDEX ,INT)) RESULT) failed." isn't exactly helpful. 16:34:44 Krystof: Me, too. I'm starting to wonder if git isn't so flexible that different projects need fairly explicit guidelines over and above just "we use git." 16:34:52 nyef: yeah... The fact that it's a toplevel assert doesn't help either 16:35:04 On two counts: First, it doesn't give nearly enough information to be able to debug things. And second, it prevents the entire rest of the file from running. 16:35:49 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-183-110.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 16:35:56 rpg: definitely. It's meant as piping on top of which one can build a more easily manageable system. We're probably too lazy to try and build that system with a program though. 16:36:21 woah, this is good. Everything passes as expected! 16:36:21 this is why I have been asking for people with experience to write things down 16:36:38 I'm still worried about the two failures in float.pure.lisp. 16:37:10 pkhuong: I find it somewhat helpful to think about git as a distributed file system, insetad of a VCS. 16:37:39 A versioned distributed file system? 16:37:42 I wonder what the problem w/ alignment and call-out was. 16:37:47 nyef: no, just write-once. 16:38:03 *nyef* shakes his head. 16:38:06 and content-addressed (: 16:38:10 But you can call up specific older versions. 16:38:33 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@66.181.74.184] has quit ["http://twitter.com/thoolihan"] 16:39:20 Okay, the two bug-372 failues are worrisome, but clearly not critical as they also fail on darwin and ppc, and one fails on x86-netbsd as well. 16:39:36 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-11-178.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 16:40:11 ahoy 16:40:13 I'll commit the arith.pure.lisp changes and then we need to figure out where to go from here. 16:40:16 I'm trying to understand what we do there actually. 16:40:23 nyef: 62 bit fixnums ;) 16:40:27 Oh, right. 16:40:29 and the modwd stuff while we're at it? 16:40:30 *nyef* forgot. 16:40:46 when *print-right-margin* is bound to NIL, how do I specify CLHS: "the maximum line length such that output can be displayed without wraparound or truncation"? 16:40:47 Possibly. The modwd stuff affects other platforms, though, so it'd need more testing. 16:41:08 Hrm... Does the modfx stuff affect other platforms, or just the x86oids? 16:41:23 other platforms too, I think. 16:41:53 levente_meszaros: Is binding it to NIL not indicating that you have an infinite-width output surface? 16:42:22 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 16:42:51 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@AMontsouris-553-1-54-117.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:05 I think we're being too smart on scale-float. 16:43:10 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:17 Just the modfx stuff alone reduced conditional compilation a bit. 16:43:18 "scale-float returns (* float (expt (float b float) integer)), where b is the radix of the floating-point representation." 16:43:40 Krystof, the tricky thing I encountered a while back while trying to write that guide is that there's no one "best practice" workflow when you use git; there are a bunch of powerful tools and some situations that they can't cope with so it's best to avoid. 16:43:48 Terminus [n=justin@112.200.177.148] has joined #lisp 16:43:53 nyef, well I thought it does... but in SLIME ASDF breaks its output at around 80 16:44:06 I don't understand floating-point math... 16:44:11 Adlai: we don't want a best practice workflow. We want a good workflow for *us*. 16:44:14 levente_meszaros: Oh. Perhaps it's an operation on the stream, somehow? 16:44:53 We're currently doing some really interesting gymnastics to handle scaling large exponents down, but especially denorms up. 16:44:59 Adlai: "Best practice" in industry tends to be pretty dismal. 16:45:49 *Adlai* is referring to Krystof's requests for a single best practice workflow 16:46:07 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.82] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:46:39 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:51 Adlai: that's in the context of SBCL switching to git. It's not a request for an all-encompassing bible. 16:46:55 you could look into how other projects do it (e.g., git itself) 16:47:08 re scale-float: from the spec, that's not needed. We could, and maybe *should* just barf on the "(expt (float b float) integer)" step. 16:47:27 Adlai: I think it's OK to "break ties" arbitrarily when providing a recommended workflow. 16:47:30 whatever. Maybe I should just stay out of this. 16:47:35 any ideas on why lisp scores particularly bad on pidigits? http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=sbcl&lang2=javasteady 16:48:03 This should "just" be a matter of changing n-fixnum-tag-bits and stripping out pad[0235]-lowtag from the fixnum-lowtags list, I think... 16:48:09 madnificent: I'd blame startup delay. 16:48:15 The very flexibility of git means that we are almost sure to need arbitrary choices. Knowing where there are choices to make, and making them, even arbitrarily, will be helpful. 16:48:17 Adlai: we're looking for a guide to suggest a good workflow. 16:49:06 I think one arbitrary choice is between people submitting patches or people pushing to github repos for pull by the maintainer(s). 16:49:15 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-78.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:23 nyef: I doubt that, it took 33 seconds vs 5 for java... that doesn't sound like startup delay to me 16:49:28 I toyed with the latter for asdf, but for that community, I think it was inappropriate. 16:50:07 madnificent: Perhaps startup delay in a UML situation, coupled with not-entirely-optimized code? Or, hey, I/O slowness? 16:50:37 nyef, (format t "~@<~A~@:>" (loop repeat 100 collect "foo ")) for me wraps around 70 even though *print-right-margin* is NIL 16:50:41 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:42 nyef: not-entirely-optimized code could be it... have you looked at the link, actually? 16:52:06 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 16:52:29 in short: sbcl doesn't perform bad vs java, but the pidigits is the only one that runs a lot slower 16:53:06 CLHS says there is some limit when *print-right-margin* is bound to NIL. I would like to know how is that limit determined in SBCL? 16:53:27 or should I ask rather SLIME? 16:54:11 levente_meszaros: check your *print-length* 16:54:29 nyef: you may be right on the optimization, as http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=pidigits&lang=sbcl&id=2 shows, the types could be specified by some bounds 16:54:36 fe[nl]ix, hi! *print-length* is also bound to NIL 16:55:20 maybe I'm wrong 16:55:48 levente_meszaros: what about *print-pretty* ? 16:56:11 hmm, I just realized that *print-pretty* is bound to T 16:56:33 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B27C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:57:08 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:57:45 setting *print-pretty* to NIL disables wrapping, but I'm not sure if that is the right answer 16:57:56 levente_meszaros: I always keep it NIL, mainly for perfomance reasons 16:58:46 fe[nl]ix, actually I don't know who sets it to T, whether if it's SLIME or somebody else? 16:59:44 Adlai: I'm not asking for an exhaustive enumeration of all possible options; I'm asking for someone to step up and say "this worked for ; we used this, this and that, and never ever the other" 17:00:12 anything with choice will paralyze with indecision those who are newcomers to git who don't have time to evaluate the choices 17:01:43 levente_meszaros: $ LC_ALL=C egrep -Rn 'set(q|f).+\*print-pretty\*' . 17:01:43 ./code/pprint.lisp:1585: (setf *print-pretty* t)) 17:03:27 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-168-52.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 17:03:36 Krystof, Adlai: I read over the Apress book on git and I can attest to Krystof's paralysis. It describes (as it should) several workflows. But when I was working on ASDF, I just waffled around between them, and ended up with a mess. 17:03:54 fe[nl]ix, ok, so it's T by default in SBCL, but still I don't know where the *print-right-margin* comes from when it's bound to NIL 17:06:19 levente_meszaros: I put my  cents on with-standard-io-syntax 17:06:52 levente_meszaros: src/code/target-format.lisp; grep for 72 if I remember rightly 17:07:19 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:07:49 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 17:08:55 Krystof, do I have any chance to override that? 17:09:12 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-35-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:25 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-35-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:09:46 you get 72 if stream-line-length returns NIL, I think. If you've got your own kind of stream, you can define a method on stream-line-length 17:10:08 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:39 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.185.240] has joined #lisp 17:11:49 -!- shortsightedsid [n=shortsig@122.172.147.124] has quit [] 17:12:30 mind you, it might also be sb-pretty::default-line-length 17:12:38 which is a constant of 80 17:12:55 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:06 there's already a method form stream-line-length on slime-output-stream 17:13:36 So, I'm getting some sort of weird assembly failure in arith.lisp for generic-+ if I try to use 2 fixnum tag bits. 17:13:57 But I also remebered that we still haven't done anything about -thread- support. 17:14:07 -!- dys``` is now known as dys 17:14:40 Krystof, hmm, unfortunately none of them seems to have effect on the output 17:14:51 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:51 nyef: I'm hoping 2 fixnum tag bits will be easier than threads. 17:15:04 Actually, I'm expecting threads to be easier. 17:15:14 Krystof, ah, C-c-ing default-line-length and pretty-stream did the trick 17:15:29 A weird failure to assembly means nasty debugging. Threads I should see a handful of places that weren't converted and that should be about it. 17:16:55 ... Looks like the PPC backend only has -mod32 arithmetic, not -smod30. 17:17:16 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-147-159.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:17:19 .. I think I can make scale-float simpler and still make it handle as large an exponent range as we want. 17:20:01 Krystof, there is (or *print-right-margin* (sb!impl::line-length target) default-line-length) in pprint.lisp 17:20:47 (sb-impl::line-length *standard-output*) for me returns 160 17:21:12 but the target there seems to be some *intermediate* string-output-stream even though I issue (format *standard-output* "~<~A~>" (loop repeat 100 collect "foo ")) 17:21:42 so the stream-line-length custmization does not kick in 17:22:05 isn't that a bug? 17:22:20 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:23:04 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:23:38 so because of print-pretty it wraps the output stream into a string stream and misses the line-length customization on the original stream 17:24:07 dunno 17:24:27 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has left #lisp 17:25:38 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 17:26:41 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:26:41 milanj [n=milan@109.93.33.205] has joined #lisp 17:27:24 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:27 Guthur_ [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:30 -!- BMeph [n=BMeph@65.103.151.24] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:28:57 -!- Guthur_ is now known as Guthur 17:29:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:22 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-78.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:38 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 17:30:34 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has joined #lisp 17:30:51 -!- chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:56 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-78.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:40 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:53 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:08 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:10 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:47 rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:43 -!- Terminus [n=justin@112.200.177.148] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:17 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:42 ... I think I might have broken something. :-/ 17:41:27 Oh. Maybe not, this is faulting in an assembly-routine. 17:41:36 (We really should do something about debug info for those.) 17:43:54 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:46:35 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-154.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:04 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-154.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:54 So, first stab at making threading work: total change, two lines of code in one file. 17:51:12 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:51:28 fiveop [n=fiveop@81.163.107.169] has joined #lisp 17:53:52 CopropHAGE [n=Poobama@201.170.30.71.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:58 Tired of Niggers? 17:54:03 Sick of their monkeyshines? 17:54:10 Join us at Chimpout Forum! 17:54:12 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@81.163.107.169] has quit [Client Quit] 17:54:18 http://www.chimpout.com/forum 17:54:18 we are already sick of you. 17:54:26 At Chimpout we are not White Supremacists. 17:54:37 We welcome anybody who hates niggers and isn't a nigger. 17:54:41 So, who wants to give the bot an op and a mandate to deal with such trash? 17:54:43 I myself am a Mexican! 17:54:59 Join us in the epic battle of human vs fecal-colored beast! 17:55:01 Chimpout FTW 17:55:10 http://www.chimpout.com/forum! 17:55:31 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 17:55:37 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*n=Poobama@*.170.30.71.dsl.dyn.telnor.net 17:55:40 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has been kicked from #lisp 17:56:14 howdy folks 17:56:44 was that 2 secs? 17:56:54 er 2 minutes 17:57:47 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.90.1"] 17:57:48 lichtblau: thanks for the work on hemlock, I'll try it out when I find some time 17:59:37 uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:55 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:45 Hm, CCL's multiple-values convention seems pretty neat: calls that require multiple values always go through a trampoline function, whose address is known. Then, when something is going to do a m-v return, it checks if the return address is that trampoline: if it isn't, it does a normal single-valued return. 18:02:19 tcr: good luck! dependencies for hemlock.tty should be all in clbuild now. 18:02:49 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 18:03:16 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-11-178.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:04:15 joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:06 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-78.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:05:25 that way, single valued calls and returns have no overhead at all. 18:07:43 on x86, we could use the low bit of the return address. 18:07:48 a single nop isn't expensive (: 18:07:52 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:08:02 postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-150-142.w86-216.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:08:47 so even return addresses mean you want a single value and odd return addresses mean you want multiple, for instance? 18:09:10 yup. 18:09:11 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:09:19 that's tricky. :) 18:09:32 Doable, though. 18:10:12 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 18:10:58 Okay, threaded build, take three. 18:11:06 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-154.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11:10 Maybe this time it'll work. 18:11:24 is this on windows? 18:11:47 Fade: no, but with wide fixnums. 18:12:17 ahh 18:12:47 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 18:12:53 Hrm. TLS exhausted. That's at least a little better... 18:13:27 Is it a good practice to avoid destructive operations, or it's just nonsense? 18:13:48 It depends on what you're doing. 18:14:04 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-86-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:14:10 why does pseudo-atomic macro move rbp to the p-a-bits variable? is that just a convenient non-zero value? 18:14:11 But, generally, it's easier to reason about things when they aren't destructive. 18:14:18 in general it's a good thing; although pathological avoidance has performance impact. 18:14:37 foom: It's a convenient non-zero value that won't change over the course of the p-a block. 18:14:57 foom: Note that the end test is an xor back to p-a-bits and a jz or jnz. 18:15:46 couldn't that just as easily be a constant 1, with interrupt setting it to 2? 18:16:13 Shorter code sequence if it's a register. 18:16:44 At least, that's the theory. 18:17:48 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:18:31 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-147-159.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:42 foom: it's a convenient value with zeros at the bottom. 18:19:55 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-26-207-98.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:19:56 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:20:14 right, it needs to be a tagged integer, check. 18:20:26 8, then. :) 18:20:33 What's a Czech integer? 18:23:03 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:10 dandersen: where did you hear of such a thing ? 18:25:13 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:25:33 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-074-232-249-027.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:59 I have a lot of functions in a .lisp file that depend on others specified below them - is there a way to compile and load the entire file without reordering the functions? 18:26:53 konr: Yes. The normal way. But you -will- lose if you use a macro before it is defined, or if the macro calls a function that is defined within the same file. 18:27:19 fe[nl]ix: [ foom ] right, it needs to be a tagged integer, check. 18:27:26 fe[nl]ix: Sorry, bad joke. 18:27:40 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:27:58 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 18:28:41 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:29:11 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:25 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 18:29:46 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.13] has joined #lisp 18:31:14 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:31:28 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:33:52 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:08 redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-074-232-249-027.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:06 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:47 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:48 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B27C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:51 nyef: how does scale-float fail in your tree? 18:42:11 How do you mean? 18:42:24 Oh, and threadyness appears to be working now. 18:42:39 :scale-float-overflow :bug-372 18:43:14 Yeah. You want me to run just that test file and paste the results? 18:43:21 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-26-207-98.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:43:24 Or, rather, just the results for that case? 18:43:30 Just the result would be nice. 18:43:53 It'll be a little bit, I'm in the middle of a threaded build now. 18:44:03 k. 18:44:31 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 18:45:05 -!- uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:45:50 :addition-overflow :bug-372 would be nice too. 18:47:20 martin` [n=user@pD9E680C9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:31 hi, i have a x86-64 linux and try to recompile sbcl 18:53:37 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:17 the process aborts with "//entering make-target-2.sh 18:54:17 //doing warm init - compilation phase 18:54:17 mmap: Cannot allocate memory 18:54:17 ensure_space: failed to validate 8589869056 bytes at 0x1000000000 18:54:20 (hint: Try "ulimit -a"; maybe you should increase memory limits.) 18:54:24 " 18:54:44 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2F2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:40 well, what is the output of 'ulimit -a'? 18:55:40 does anyone know with what I have to replace the constant dynamic-space-start in src/compiler/x86-64/parms.lisp, so that sbcl will run on my machine? 18:56:12 it's probably dynamic-space-size you want to modify... and it's a command line argument. 18:56:15 you need to change the user limits for the shell you're using to build sbcl. 18:56:43 the output of ulimit -a is: 18:56:50 core file size (blocks, -c) 0 18:56:50 data seg size (kbytes, -d) unlimited 18:56:50 scheduling priority (-e) 1 18:56:50 file size (blocks, -f) unlimited 18:56:54 pending signals (-i) 63887 18:56:57 max locked memory (kbytes, -l) unlimited 18:57:00 max memory size (kbytes, -m) 6957928 18:57:03 open files (-n) 1024 18:57:07 pipe size (512 bytes, -p) 8 18:57:10 POSIX message queues (bytes, -q) 819200 18:57:13 real-time priority (-r) 100 18:57:13 stack size (kbytes, -s) 8192 18:57:16 cpu time (seconds, -t) unlimited 18:57:19 max user processes (-u) 63887 18:57:24 virtual memory (kbytes, -v) 8223520 18:57:27 file locks (-x) unlimited 18:57:28 next time, please use the pastebin. 18:57:30 18:57:38 -!- holycow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:57:40 sorry 18:58:12 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.3.186] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:58:42 cahnge the max memory size to unlimited 18:59:02 virtual memory, actually, probably. 18:59:29 Or you can use --dynamic-space-size to make it smaller (you'll have to modify make-target-2.sh to use that flag too). 19:00:14 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B27C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:00:19 Oh, lovely. 19:00:32 pkhuong: I just ran float.pure.lisp, and it didn't fail. 19:00:56 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 19:01:16 nyef: by itself... mm.. 19:01:30 This is a threaded build, though, so that might affect it. 19:06:13 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:06:38 I'm going to run the full test suite if this build works out, so we might see something then. 19:07:24 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2F2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:11:32 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:12 tigerjh [n=stan@220.93.68.74] has joined #lisp 19:14:13 -!- rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:19 -!- tigerjh [n=stan@220.93.68.74] has quit [Client Quit] 19:15:44 tigerjh [n=stan@220.93.68.74] has joined #lisp 19:16:12 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:54 Fade and pkhuong: The compilation worked in a root shell with 'ulimit -v unlimited'. I can now run the executable with 'sbcl --dynamic-space-size 50'. Thanks. 19:17:05 Axius [n=ade@92.84.18.7] has joined #lisp 19:17:30 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:32 martin`: you can reset these values permanently by changing the login profile for your shell. 19:17:50 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:38 Edi is releasing a new hunchentoot tarball 19:18:39 then you would be able to build sbcl as your $USER, but it isn't like that will happen too often. 19:19:45 given that the last realese was a rotten egg seeing Edi taking the reigns again is a good sign 19:20:08 He is stil very busy though so don't expect miracles 19:20:13 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 61 (Connection refused)] 19:20:32 For now only tested under LispWorks 19:21:04 does edi work for lispworks? 19:21:22 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 19:21:22 no, but he's a user 19:21:32 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:21:33 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:21:44 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 19:22:23 ijk1 [n=adb@gp2c4-b96.broadinstitute.org] has joined #lisp 19:23:12 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:16 Fade: don't think so. He does use it a lot for real work. 19:23:50 there's a lot to like about the commercial lisps, but hell's bells... they're expensive. 19:24:10 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-242-135.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 19:25:14 SCL is quite affordable, but it doesn't quite come with all the bells and whistles that ACL/LW do. still good tho. 19:25:39 didn't scieneer come from cmucl? 19:25:44 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:45 Fade: yes. 19:25:59 LW seems fairly reasonable, especially if you want GUIs on win32. 19:26:02 Fade: "Hell's bells.." is sort of some "old" notion of "cussing nicely"? 19:26:18 -!- postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-150-142.w86-216.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 19:26:38 hypno: ideomatic of an older time, I guess. 19:26:57 like "heavens to betsy" ... sort of ironic in its out of placeness. 19:27:13 ok. thanks. goes into the english org file. :) 19:27:45 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:27:54 Fade: I bought lispworks last year when they had it at 50% off. 19:28:16 if I had to work in windows that's likely tthe way I'd go. 19:28:49 If I had to work in windows, I'd re-prioritize SBCL/Win32 hacking -way- up. 19:29:09 balooga: was it worth it? i love the interpreter and the apis and the documentation, but CAPI sort of felt.. um.. not enough? 19:29:27 i'm still at the point where I'm trying to win projects delivered in lisp; I'm not an implementation hacker. :) 19:29:53 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:29:57 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:30:13 hypno: I don't use CAPI at all. I bought it because I wanted the .exe delivery, and I was tired of having it exit after 5 hours. 19:30:23 Terminus [n=justin@112.200.177.148] has joined #lisp 19:30:41 balooga: heh, ok. 19:30:58 does the lw editor work /w emacs command keys? 19:31:16 hypno: ccl/win32 wasn't out then. If it was then I would probably have thought a lot harder about purchasing LW. 19:31:36 it's similiar to emacs, yes. some things are different. you can hack the editor tho. 19:32:06 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 19:32:12 whenever i have been shoe-horned into one of these visual editing environments, the differences from emacs make me feel like i'm suffocating. 19:32:31 Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:51 vim has some inproved Lisp support these days, if you are one of those Emacs haters. 19:32:54 fade: The first thing you need to do is download Edi Weitz's Lispworks addons. http://weitz.de/lw-add-ons/ Makes the editor sane/similar to emacs. 19:33:44 thanks. i'll file that tip for future reference. 19:34:53 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:35:16 basically send a function to the REPL and switch back and orth 19:35:39 not too many vi[m] afficionados around here. 19:36:02 since 'emacs --daemon' i don't even use vi for config file changes any more. 19:36:09 Fade, I am a hrdcore Emacs buff myself, but I just read up on vim 19:36:28 ran some tests 19:37:10 *herbieB* is a vim afficionado, and yes vimperator is the best thing ever. 19:37:39 But that's in browser land, so probably not pertinentt ot his. 19:40:51 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:28 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:17 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.18.7] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:46:06 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 19:49:49 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:53:44 -!- |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 20:06:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:30 Guthur_ [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:44 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:44 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:17:55 -!- Terminus [n=justin@112.200.177.148] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:04 mjsor [n=mjsor@70-56-255-61.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:02 antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:21 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:23:08 -!- Guthur_ is now known as Guthur 20:24:11 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 20:25:24 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 20:26:22 Axius [n=ade@92.84.23.118] has joined #lisp 20:29:28 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 20:30:43 Overdrive [n=user@81.202.74.13.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:06 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCB539.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:39 -!- udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:40:26 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:41:00 francogrex [n=user@40.88-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:43:58 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-73.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:44:10 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.23.118] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:44:30 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-074-232-249-027.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:44:56 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:05 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-73.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:45:07 Is CLIMACS likely to be comparable to emacs in 5 years? 20:45:20 -!- tigerjh [n=stan@220.93.68.74] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:28 konr: if someone will work on it 20:45:36 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:48 _deepfire: I'm reading the overview document of desire, and I think it'd help readability if you spelled it Desire 20:48:25 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has left #lisp 20:50:57 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 20:51:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:51:33 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:38 Yay, a sample of 57M conset operations (sbcl build). 20:53:00 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:04 avalanche^ [n=dunno@60.81-166-31.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:25 |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:32 is that a good thing? :-) 20:55:51 I have a problem that I was hoping someone could assist me in? --> it is subtracting a polynomial from another; I can not figure out how I can change the polynomial I am subtracting from the first in a decent way :-| 20:57:09 Krystof: more numbers is always good ;) 20:57:35 avalanche^: how's that a lisp question? 20:57:46 I need to do it in CL 20:57:54 I can't figure out how :-| 20:58:44 I have successfully made all the simplfying/sorting stuff of the poly itself, but subtracting --> just dunno how to write it :( 20:59:50 do you know how do it mathematically? 21:00:06 SICP contains code for it in Scheme 21:00:26 stassats; yes, of course 21:00:45 avalanche^: so, what's the problem? 21:01:08 actually writing the code in CL to make it happen how I want to happen :-P I've tried a couple of ways but failed miserably 21:01:25 for instance, trying to take the poly I'm subtracting from 0 21:01:38 avalanche^: first, how do you represent your polynomial? 21:02:09 ((a (x e)(y f)(z g))(b (l h)(m i)(n j))) = a*(x^e)*(y^f)*(z^g) + b*(l^h)*(m^i)*(n^j) 21:02:10 ;e.g. 2*(x^2)*y = ((2 (x 2)(y 1))) 21:02:24 that looks likea multinomial, not a polynomial 21:02:50 that's just how one polynomial looks like; let's call it p1 21:02:57 then I want, say, p1 minus p2 21:03:05 avalanche^, isn't that really a multinomial? 21:03:13 not that I am aware of, no 21:03:48 disumu_ [n=disumu@p54BCD6D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:25 ah okay 21:04:53 I was mushing together multivariate and polynomial for some reason, thanks 21:05:00 hehe, no problem 21:05:49 for example, for my addition function I have: 21:05:50 (defun p+ (p1 p2) 21:05:50 (simplify (varmap (append (simplify (varmap p1)) (simplify (varmap p2))))) 21:05:50 ) 21:06:03 where simplify/varmap just makes the poly look "nice" :P 21:06:10 aren't polynomials s/*/+/ 21:06:49 you know, it occurs to me that maybe you can drop the a* bit from a*(x^e)*(y^f)*(z^g), and just go with (a^1)*(x^e)*(y^f)*(z^g)? 21:07:38 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:08:01 yeah, could do 21:09:06 avalanche^: how do you handle negative coefficients? 21:09:33 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 21:11:39 I don't really them in any specific way, I just work with them as positive ones 21:12:11 so you can't simplify away (+ a -a)/ 21:12:38 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:59 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:27 yes I can, I have a function that checks coefficients 21:13:50 for it being 0 also 21:13:58 How do you represent -a then? 21:14:23 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:15:18 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:16:25 I don't represent it in any special way 21:16:37 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCB539.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:19:24 well, anyway, once you figure out how to represented negated polys and operate on them usefully, subtraction will be trivial. 21:19:56 -3 is just a number 21:20:23 soupdragon: it's also the opposite of 3. It's pretty important that the sum of x and -x is 0, in algebra. 21:20:27 are the exponents numbers or symbolic expressions? 21:20:56 *tcr* wishes for tracability of local functions 21:20:57 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:04 symbolic 21:21:06 tcr: you can on sbcl/x86/!darwin. 21:21:21 joy! how? 21:21:31 tcr: (trace #'foo). 21:21:54 huh? 21:22:17 how does it resolve that to a local function? 21:22:26 tcr: (flet ((foo ...)) (trace #'foo) ...) 21:22:47 bah what a hack 21:22:50 (thanks) 21:22:52 :function #'foo, actually, maybe. 21:23:18 I guess you could get the function from the code component ;) 21:24:33 in that case, maybe "polynomial" doesn't matter at all 21:25:01 can't use encapsulation to trace anonymous function # 21:25:13 symbolic exponents in polynomials, eh? 21:25:37 pr [n=pr@p579CAC67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:40 tcr: :encapsulate nil. 21:26:21 joy! 21:26:36 Is there a canonical form for symbolic expressions with + * and ^? 21:27:44 horner schema? 21:27:57 <_deepfire> We need a READTABLE-EQUAL-P 21:27:58 pkhuong: I read it wrong, ofc the exponents are numbers 21:28:20 _deepfire: I have one in the testing infrastructure of named-readtables 21:28:22 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:58 <_deepfire> tcr, it seems that something pollutes the readtable during the buildbot run, with the reault being a failure to READ xuriella/instructions.lisp 21:29:25 <_deepfire> tcr, so I need a way to check readtable-related side effects after each module. 21:29:40 _deepfire: look at readtable-contents and readtable= in named-readtables/tests/tests.lisp 21:29:47 <_deepfire> tcr, thanks! 21:30:10 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:11 _deepfire: The latter involved the former, and tree-equal -- i.e. it has not been written with performance in mind. A direct readtable= would be more efficient. 21:30:32 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:31:01 <_deepfire> tcr, sounds like it's time it life outside of tests.lisp :-) 21:31:12 <_deepfire> tcr, sounds like it's time to give it life outside of tests.lisp :-) 21:31:29 Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has joined #lisp 21:31:35 _deepfire: it's based on readtable iterators, and readtable iterators are, so far, just an implementation detail of named readtables 21:31:53 soupdragon: set (sum) of monomials. monomials are a constant coefficient and a set of pairs of variable x power (in |N); typically, you'd have the pairs as the key and the coefficient as the value in a map. 21:33:27 I'm not sure if that tracing was a good idea: fixup vector 0xbb43000 has a bad widetag: 38 21:34:00 <_deepfire> tcr, for the time being I guess I'll just copy it over to desire/dependencies.lisp (like split-sequence) 21:34:28 _deepfire: You probably want to write your own, non-consing version of readtable= 21:34:36 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:34:54 _deepfire: using named-readtables::with-readtable-iterator 21:36:56 pkhuong: Threading changes committed, though they're not entirely complete. 21:37:32 sb-introspect doesn't survive its tests, and the test suite doesn't complete either. 21:40:19 Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:18 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-28-118.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 21:41:35 http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/subclassable-structures 21:41:46 comments on the latest commit in particular solicited 21:44:16 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-52-30.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:18 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 21:50:14 joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:07 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:13 Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has joined #lisp 21:53:28 Krystof: I think the interface should have random-integer, random-fixnum, random-word, random-double-float and random-single-float. 21:53:43 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:53:44 + default implementations that only depend on random-word. 21:54:14 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 21:54:20 _deepfire pasted "readtable-equal" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92743 21:56:24 <_deepfire> tcr, there 21:57:04 _deepfire: there are some subtle points 21:57:06 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:44 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:09 _deepfire: 1) the iterators do not currently return the flag of non-terminating-ness, you have to run (nth-value 1 (get-macro-character char rt)) explicitly for now 21:58:32 slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1CB66.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:04 <_deepfire> tcr, IIRC you cannot change character such character traits portably, no? 21:59:16 <_deepfire> er 21:59:21 <_deepfire> tcr, IIRC you cannot change such character traits portably, no? 22:00:05 <_deepfire> I think I needed this once, but my reading of CLHS concluded that it's impossible. 22:00:12 character traits is something differently 22:00:18 different 22:00:30 <_deepfire> Oh, non-terminating-ness isn't a character trait? 22:00:34 you can change terminating-ness in set-macro-char 22:00:40 it's a property of a macro char 22:00:43 <_deepfire> I see, sorry.. 22:00:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:00:52 character traits are properties of constituent characters 22:01:12 _deepfire: 2) you can not protably use EQ on the reader macro function 22:01:33 *_deepfire* clickety-click.. 22:01:35 clisp, for some reason, returns a new closure for builtin reader functions 22:01:48 <_deepfire> EQUAL? 22:01:50 you can use named-readtables::function= 22:01:56 <_deepfire> Ugh. 22:01:59 see readtable= in tests.lisp 22:02:11 <_deepfire> Are we /that/ unportable? 22:02:38 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:02:42 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:02:46 "we"? 22:02:54 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:58 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:03:39 <_deepfire> Well, I'm drunk and overreacting, forgive me :-) 22:04:04 <_deepfire> I mean the lack of standartisation for such little details. 22:04:40 <_deepfire> Or, rather, specification, because "standard" has a uselessly vague meaning. 22:04:49 actually how would you specify it? 22:04:50 -!- Cinnober is now known as CinnoberMat 22:05:03 <_deepfire> EQ 22:05:11 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-52-30.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:05:16 EQ works perfectly fine on function objects 22:05:35 the point is that get-macro-char may return different closures 22:06:38 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06:49 <_deepfire> Ok, I guess without further reading of CLHS I cannot contribute usefully to this question :-) 22:07:24 <_deepfire> For once, I have no idea why G-M-C would return different closures (I assume you meant each time).. 22:07:24 clhs does not specify what actually is in the standard readtable; why should it? 22:07:28 jpbarrette [n=jpbarret@modemcable098.216-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:08:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:08 <_deepfire> I know, there wasn't enough time/resources to standartise upon that. 22:08:11 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:08:15 I do not why clisp does it, but it puts new closures into the created readtable in copy-readtable. Perhaps some state thing. 22:08:27 I'd argue there's no point in specifying it 22:08:34 unless you want a straight-jacket 22:08:48 <_deepfire> Well, you can specify it so that it's amenable to extension. 22:09:08 <_deepfire> If they did that, you could write readtable= portably. 22:09:57 <_deepfire> Like employ CLOS, or something. 22:10:28 Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:48 <_deepfire> BTW, #lispgames is a rather live channel these days. 22:10:50 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:02 Uhm, the issues are much more subtle in this particular case. 22:11:44 Is there a (quick) fix for getting rid of the empty space (thus making 2 lists --> 1)? For instance (- 3) --> (-3) ? 22:11:52 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 22:12:01 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:12:21 <_deepfire> avalanche, (- 3) is not 2 lists 22:12:28 <_deepfire> avalanche, (- 3) is 1 list 22:12:35 It's a nice example of subtle points that probably no one would think of, unless digged up by actual implementation 22:13:02 and it's what makes good new "de facto" standards very hard to achieve 22:13:23 <_deepfire> tcr, ok ok, I'm shutting up, I'm far away from my competence grounds.. 22:13:38 I moved on to more general topic anyway :-) 22:13:59 jpbarrette pasted "defun marco" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92746 22:14:24 I'm working on some lisp to python bridge library. I do have a variable with a string and I want to define a function. However, it seems I don't understand macros enough since the only thing I can do is define a function with the variable name instead of the variable value. 22:14:24 jpbarrette: you're hacking on clpython? 22:14:44 Well, more on pythononlisp 22:15:00 oh yeah, hehe, lol :-P My head is starting to get heavy :-P 22:15:25 (cons '- '(1)) --> (- 1), however I wish for (-1); any ideas? 22:15:57 (list (- 1)) --> (-1) 22:16:05 jpbarrette: That won't work because test2 is not going to be evaluated. 22:16:29 (and you don't want to defun a string, either). 22:16:34 Yeah I know, but I can't figure out how to solve this issue. 22:16:42 jpbarrette: what are you trying to do? 22:17:05 without saying what you want, it's hard to reason back to an answer. 22:17:46 Dodek_ [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:59 Why are you using a macro, for example, instead of a function? 22:18:01 well, from python c-api, I can get all function names from a module. Then I would like to define functions (in lisp) that would call those functions. 22:18:06 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:19 my first guess (which I knew wouldn't work), was to do something like (defun (intern (string-upcase the-python-name)) (args) (some-python-commands)) 22:19:35 rpg annotated #92746 "possible change...." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92746#1 22:19:46 jpbarrette: This may be of interest to you: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/talks/python-and-lisp-2009.pdf 22:20:23 soupdragon, nope! ---> (list (cons '- '(1))) gives ((- 1)) 22:20:41 ? 22:20:54 look what I wrote: (list (- 1)) 22:21:00 yeah, but I can't do that 22:21:07 why not 22:21:13 I have a minus sign and want to add it to another list 22:21:13 (list (- 1)) => ((-1)) 22:21:27 note that - is a function call 22:21:30 Ralith: oh yeah? 22:21:52 in the list form, anyway 22:22:05 wait wat 22:22:08 Ralith: that evaluation isn't correct... 22:22:10 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:22:11 (list (- 1)) should return (-1) 22:22:15 why O.o 22:22:19 I see that that's correct but idgi 22:22:21 it does, stassats 22:22:31 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:22:34 oh right. 22:22:38 because - is a function call. 22:22:39 silly me. 22:22:40 but with the cons' bit it doesn't really work how I hoped 22:22:59 -!- Dodek_ is now known as Dodek 22:23:21 yes, lisp doesn't work how you hope 22:23:34 ah crap :( 22:23:37 rpg annotated #92746 "Maybe you want something like..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92746#2 22:23:42 <_deepfire> avalanche^, what about (- (1)) ? 22:24:01 <_deepfire> avalanche^, what should it result in? 22:24:01 (list - 1) is nicer to look at :) 22:24:17 avalanche^: what is it that you hope CL will do? 22:24:28 well I have a list full of stuff, then I want to make it negative, thus just adding a minus sign in front 22:24:53 (push '- list)? 22:25:07 never heard/read of push before, hm 22:25:11 <_deepfire> avalanche^, (defun intern-list (x) (intern (concatenate 'string (mapcar #'write-to-string x)))) 22:25:30 madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has joined #lisp 22:25:40 <_deepfire> avalanche^, sorry, (defun intern-list (x) (intern (apply #'concatenate 'string (mapcar #'write-to-string x)))) 22:25:46 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:25:59 yeah, hehe, that made more sense :P 22:26:31 <_deepfire> avalanche^, are you sure you need a symbol? 22:26:44 for what? 22:27:00 <_deepfire> avalanche^, as the final output 22:27:15 nope 22:27:18 -1 doesn't look like a symbol 22:27:32 <_deepfire> Oh, really, yes :-) 22:27:33 avalanche^: No, you don't just add a minus sign in front, any more than you can do that in another programming language. You are confusing the program text with the underlying data structures. 22:28:14 Pushing a minus onto a list containing a number doesn't somehow negate the number. It just gives you a list with a '- at its head... 22:28:44 rpg: good point and I totally agree, but I just find CL a tiny bit too challenging thus trying to find an OK way out :-| 22:28:50 <_deepfire> avalanche^, you probably should tell us about your larger problem 22:28:57 <_deepfire> avalanche^, what are you trying to do? 22:28:59 yeah, I have a polynomial 22:29:11 <_deepfire> I suspected you play with symbolic math. 22:29:12 well, two actually; and I wish to subtract one of them from the other. 22:29:26 avalanche^: This javascript : "-" + 1 doesn't give me -1, either --- it gives me "-1". 22:29:55 another way I've thought of would be to subtract the second polynomial (the one that subtracts the first) by 0 first to make it negative then append as I did with addition of two polynomials 22:29:56 <_deepfire> avalanche, how are your polynomials represented? 22:30:02 That's a string that happens to be parseable to -1, it's not a negative 1.... 22:30:21 ((a (x e)(y f)(z g))(b (l h)(m i)(n j))) = a*(x^e)*(y^f)*(z^g) + b*(l^h)*(m^i)*(n^j) 22:30:26 avalanche^: are you working through the sicp exercises or something? 22:30:27 e.g. 2*(x^2)*y = ((2 (x 2)(y 1))) 22:30:36 no 22:31:24 trying to write a polynomial manipulation program, but the subtraction is more difficult then what it intially looked 22:31:36 Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@95.209.1.186.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 22:31:38 <_deepfire> Ok so leaf lists are always two-element of form (symbol power) and leaf atoms are always integers. 22:32:05 yeah 22:32:28 avalanche you don't like my idea then :p 22:32:32 rpg, thanks for the solution! The first annotations works perfectly for me. I had forgot the symbol-function solution. 22:33:00 jpbarrette: the second one should also work, depending on what you are using this form... 22:33:00 hehe, I guess not ;p 22:33:08 s/form/for/ 22:33:11 <_deepfire> avalanche, I suggest that you normalise your polynomials. 22:33:32 <_deepfire> avalanche, and represent all your elements as triplets -- (coeff symbol power), or somesuch 22:33:34 I have a couple of function which simplify and all that; which I pass the poly to first 22:33:34 or get a copy of mathematica ;-) 22:34:04 also have a look at maxima. it can do a lot of this stuff for you, and you can call it as a library 22:34:06 <_deepfire> Oh, sorry, polynomials != monomials, ignore me. 22:34:40 Hehe, no worries 22:35:11 <_deepfire> In any case, you want a simpler representation than what you have now. 22:35:39 It works perfectly fine for addition 22:35:52 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:09 (defun p+ (p1 p2) (simplify (varmap (append (simplify (varmap p1)) (simplify (varmap p2))))) ) 22:36:29 <_deepfire> Again ignore me, I just looked at your longer example and you had just exactly what I was about to propose :-) 22:36:47 Hehe, no worries, again ;) 22:37:05 any idea of how I can use something similar to the p+ function to subtract instead? 22:37:19 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-tkjzwakhdxvceylv] has joined #lisp 22:37:23 piso: herep? 22:37:24 also look at SICP, it does stuff like this. Though i guess that has already been suggested :) 22:38:31 or PAIP 22:40:23 *Ralith* got a hardcopy pf PAIP recently <3 22:40:31 jpbarrette annotated #92746 "defun macro " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92746#3 22:40:37 Ralith: I know the feeling! 22:41:33 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:54 rpg, I tried your example (which was really similar to what I tried before), but it doesn't seem to work the way I would want it to. I suppose it requires to use it with direct string arguments (not variables holding strings). 22:41:56 someone here using rucksack for serious work ? 22:43:26 jpbarrette: The macro version? Yes, if you want to use it with variables holding strings, and you want a macro, then you need to call eval. This will almost certainly be a mess. 22:43:39 jpbarrette: try the functional equivalent, if you want to do something like that. 22:43:53 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:57 dandersen: it is surprisingly awesome just to see CL code written in a book ^^ 22:44:19 rpg: that's what I though, thank you very much 22:45:01 nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:03 jpbarrette: After all, I can't do (defun foo (x y) (bletch x y)) and hope that CL will know that I want it actually to dereference foo to its value bar.... 22:45:44 rpg: absolutely, I understand. 22:45:46 (let ((foo 'bar)) (defun foo (x y) (bletch x y))) will not define a function for bar; it will define a function for foo. 22:47:10 -!- avalanche^ [n=dunno@60.81-166-31.customer.lyse.net] has quit ["I wonder why I quit..."] 22:47:20 adfsljk [n=user5442@187.70.2.133] has joined #lisp 22:47:23 -!- CinnoberMat [i=HydraIRC@109.58.31.82.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:23 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as CinnoberMat 22:47:45 -!- adfsljk is now known as dalton 22:49:37 hfoo [n=h@p5B17D0B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:37 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:55:11 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:30 antoni` [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:37 pkhuong: hm, ok. not impossible 23:01:16 I also wondered about random-byte as a useful interface 23:01:58 fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA8CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:09 possibly the worst literate programming system in the world has managed to produce http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/random.pdf 23:03:31 Not all prngs work in terms of bits. mrg32k3a natively produces doubles in [0, 1), and multiplies+truncate to get random integers. That's why I feel random-integer should be exposed. 23:05:38 -!- francogrex [n=user@40.88-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:47 Krystof pasted "/dev/urandom-state" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92750 23:06:30 Krystof annotated #92750 "literate programming" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92750#1 23:06:39 Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:41 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:07:53 pkhuong: so (random-foo ) for suitable foo 23:08:36 yeah. 23:09:27 is the cost of gf call anywhere near the cost of generating a sample? 23:09:41 also, why no cries of horror at my latex? 23:09:52 Krystof: i think it's brilliant 23:10:01 but then you've never seen my elisp-generated latex ;) 23:10:12 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:10:29 adfsljk [n=user5442@189-92-42-195.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:11:02 I actually want cl-generated latex, so that I can also include indexes based on introspection (who-calls, who-binds, &c) 23:11:37 but if I can't have that I want to write CL and have latex format it nicely on its own, with as little markup as possible 23:11:50 that's fairly well described by font lock, actually. 23:12:08 I think we've got mrg32k3a down to a bit less than 20 cycle/sample once, and much less than that for MT/sfMT. 23:13:01 or we could expose buffers of random bytes and random double/single floats 23:13:16 and do everything but filling the buffers up ourselves. 23:13:17 -!- dalton [n=user5442@187.70.2.133] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:13:56 -!- adfsljk is now known as dalton 23:15:12 there are some sources that don't want to draw any more samples than are strictly needed 23:15:16 /dev/random for example 23:15:17 -!- antoni [n=user@170.Red-79-158-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:17 pkhuong: Speaking of LaTeX, have you checked to see if what planet lisp does to your markup is correct? 23:16:18 short buffer ;) 23:16:45 man. what the hell did I do before there was a slime inspector? 23:16:53 nyef: seems ok to me, why? 23:17:04 Fade: used (inspect obj)? 23:17:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-242-135.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:17:25 Fade: yeah, it's great, i use it instead of writing a GUI 23:18:25 -!- |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 23:18:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:32 -!- htunk [n=htunk@ppp-71-139-36-121.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:41 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:19:11 slime-done-right-in-my-eyes would mean to define a buffer-markup protocol, similiar to the current inspector markup 23:19:40 pkhuong: Some parts of it weren't making much sense, but on review, it looks like I wasn't parsing it properly. Nevermind. 23:19:41 -!- nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:20:24 nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:06 htunk [n=htunk@ppp-71-139-36-121.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:08 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA7B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:52 Would "\cdot | -8" instead of "| -8" have been clearer? 23:23:53 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-tkjzwakhdxvceylv] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 23:23:54 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:20 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:24:40 -!- jpbarrette [n=jpbarret@modemcable098.216-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 23:24:41 Actually, the bit that confused me was attempting to parse "... involving | - 8 also do! x | -8 computes (x & 7) - 8:" as a sentence fragment. 23:25:02 Is a defun inside a form acceptable, such as `(if (= 0 (random 2)) (defun foo () 'bar) (defun foo () 'baz)`, acceptable? 23:25:06 adfsljk [n=user5442@187-27-210-105.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:25:31 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:25:35 -!- dalton [n=user5442@189-92-42-195.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:25:42 <_3b> konr: it isn't an error if that is what you mean, behaves slightly differently though 23:26:01 -!- adfsljk is now known as dalton 23:27:32 Hrm... The lack of emphasis on text (variables) in math-mode when exported to HTML doesn't help, though. 23:28:08 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:32 (compile 'foo `(lambda () ,(if (zerop (random 2)) ''bar ''baz))) 23:28:46 I think they're in italics. 23:28:55 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 23:29:30 not on the planet though; the italics are specified via css. Ah, content and presentation... 23:29:55 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-35-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:30:08 Okay, confusion at least explained. 23:30:08 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-35-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:31:39 brandelune [n=suzume@pl826.nas981.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:32:32 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:33:10 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:51 -!- nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:34:37 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:37:22 ... So, the float.pure.lisp tests succeed if you just run the one file, but fail if you run the entire suite. 23:37:54 and the same 2 tests fail? 23:38:14 Yeah, both bug-372s. 23:38:58 Actually, let me paste the output from the single file. 23:39:22 might want to print the result of (get-floating-point-modes) before these tests are run. 23:39:32 nyef pasted "Test output for float.pure.lisp." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92753 23:40:15 Some leakage from an earlier "pure" test, maybe. 23:40:19 jmbr [n=jmbr@69.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:40:31 *nyef* does an "sh ./run-tests.sh > ../output/test-suite-output 2>&1". 23:41:39 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:52 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 61 (Connection refused)] 23:42:12 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:43:00 -!- dalton [n=user5442@187-27-210-105.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:45:15 -!- martin` [n=user@pD9E680C9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:27 nyef: screen (: 23:46:55 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:47:08 Yeah, looks like it'd work better than just seeing "Help! 11 nested errors. SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded." on the tty. 23:47:25 that's ok 23:47:29 that's actually normal 23:47:37 it's one of the panic tests that writes to the tty 23:47:38 But, even with that, I got what looks like a usable file. 23:47:46 Fair enough. 23:48:14 dalton [n=user5442@187-27-229-181.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:48:40 nyef annotated #92753 "And from the full suite..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92753#1 23:48:48 -!- CinnoberMat [i=HydraIRC@95.209.1.186.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:20 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:52:44 I think I'm interested in both the FP modes -and- the current compiler policy. 23:53:24 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BD9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:49 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:54:53 are there any interesting platforms that don't support native TLS these days (e.g. __thread in GCC)? 23:55:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:17 Bare-metal x86? 23:55:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:55:46 psh. Bare-metal x86 supports it just fine, you just have to define the ABI first. :) 23:56:20 (or, rather, supports it just as well as it supports pthread_getspecific, which is the alternative) 23:56:24 -!- Overdrive [n=user@81.202.74.13.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:56:45 Win32? 23:57:37 Nope, supports it: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/2s9wt68x.aspx 23:59:58 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."]