00:00:00 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 00:02:26 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 00:02:38 it's a no-op 00:02:40 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:04:10 porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:25 fe[nl]ix: OK. I've got to think about how this will replace my SBCL-specific vector-sap and with-pinned-objects. 00:05:42 LiamH: remove with-pinned-objects and replace vector-sap with static-vector-pointer(which returns a SAP) 00:06:30 fe[nl]ix: ... and add the free-static-vector call. 00:06:35 yes 00:07:16 fe[nl]ix: What element types does this work for? 00:13:02 LiamH: on SBCL, any type for which upgraded-array-element-type returns something other than T or NIL 00:14:31 Is that true of all the implementations? 00:15:33 LiamH: base-char, character, bit, single-float, double-float, ([un]signed-byte 8|16|32|64), etc... 00:15:42 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:15:54 <_deepfire> Yay, automated remote buildbot deployment testing! 00:16:06 LiamH: as far as understand, yes 00:17:34 LiamH: if the implementation has a specialized "movable" simple-array for that type, you can make an equivalent static vector 00:18:07 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.221.84] has joined #lisp 00:18:51 LiamH: ISTR that not all have specialized complex arrays 00:18:54 fe[nl]ix: OK good. This is where the implementation complexity comes up for me. SBCL has e.g. (complex double-float) but CCL does not. As it is now, I have classified implementations as "native" or not (SBCL is native, everything else is not) for all element types. So I will have to be a little more specific, by element types. 00:19:10 fe[nl]ix: Right. 00:25:06 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FD61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:44 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:58 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:50:16 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:33 davazp [n=user@193.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:29 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 01:00:27 Traveler [n=traveler@173-130-146-0.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:55 -!- Traveler is now known as Guest12402 01:06:57 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:06:59 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:08:24 <_deepfire> Ok, I now trap asdf:missing-dependency and asdf:missing-definition. 01:09:15 <_deepfire> Which means I win: 1. I don't call ASDF:FIND-SYSTEM and 2. I can load systems with undeclared definitions! 01:09:52 <_deepfire> minion, chant 01:09:52 MORE DECLARATIVE 01:15:18 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:15:24 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:15:46 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:15:54 <_deepfire> This means desire get its third module dependency unwind mechanism, after the full-information one and the incremental one. 01:16:10 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 01:16:16 <_deepfire> Actually, this third mechanism is what ASDF-INSTALL uses. 01:17:47 caoliver1 [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:03 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:05 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:19 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-6-83.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 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[i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:43 <_deepfire> Ouch, my patch adding ASDF:MISSING-DEFINITION causes a failure in linedit due to symbol conflict with CFFI-GROVEL:MISSING-DEFINITION. 01:22:50 yay for :using packages 01:23:08 -!- lithper1 [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:23 what's the &rest in (find-if....)? it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the CLHS 01:27:10 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA2D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 01:27:14 Guest79014 [n=Fare@adsl-71-135-54-71.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:17 don't bother about it 01:29:08 (so find-if can be defined as (apply #'low-level-find predicate sequence args)) 01:29:43 ah ok, cheers 01:30:05 so that you don't need to retype all arguments 01:32:51 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:33:39 -!- Guest79014 is now known as Fare 01:35:29 -!- caoliver1 [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 01:36:09 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:56 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.45.70] has joined #lisp 01:38:13 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.45.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-67-94.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:46 -!- Guest12402 [n=traveler@173-130-146-0.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 01:40:20 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:41:31 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-82-179.w90-25.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:41:44 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.45.70] has left #lisp 01:44:15 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:22 adu [n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:32 <_deepfire> Is it just my ISP or is git://cyrusharmon.org/pub/git/ch-image.git unreachable? 01:47:13 it's not just you 01:47:14 *_deepfire* looks if slyrus announced something like a move to github.. 01:47:43 <_deepfire> Oh, looks completely down. 01:49:49 <_deepfire> Heh, what's more interesting, 'git fetch' from his remote appears to act as if it falls victim to a netfilter tarpit rule. 01:51:07 can github to automated periodic pulls? 01:51:59 <_deepfire> Don't know.. 01:52:36 <_deepfire> After all it looks like it's git fetch unilaterally acting stupid. 01:53:01 <_deepfire> Now, I can't deal with hanging executables in my buildbot. 01:53:42 <_deepfire> Maybe I should employ some kind of sbcl's timeouts. 01:53:53 <_deepfire> Async timers, or somesuch. 01:56:21 <_deepfire> Ok, sb-ext:make-timer looks like exactly what I need. 01:57:27 is there a prolog library for lisp language? 01:57:37 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:33 <_deepfire> eldragon, at least PAIP has a prolog implementation covered in details. 01:59:42 rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:48 eldragon: http://www.cliki.net/admin/search?words=prolog 02:00:07 thanks _deepfire & Guthur 02:01:01 see also kanren from the reasoning schemer 02:01:03 reasoned 02:05:25 thanks, the reason of using prolog library is that it's well integrated in lisp for interacting with lisp code 02:06:45 i think you would need a better reason than that to use prolog 02:07:31 Guthur, yes, controlled logic with lisp functions 02:09:39 JonSmith [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:34 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d90-129-209-54.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 02:11:53 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:13:57 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:06 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:14:13 jordyd 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[n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:33:59 lithper1 [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:50 sooth [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:38:09 -!- sooth [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 02:38:48 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:38:48 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:38:48 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:41:01 is there a function, kind of like mapcar, that takes a function and applies to a list of arguments, but only working with individual arguments. for example (foo #'length '(1 2) '(1 2 3)) => (2 3). 02:42:17 joubert_ [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:45 so the length function is applies to each list and their respective lengths are returned 02:42:54 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 02:42:56 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 02:43:35 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:43:35 -!- joubert_ is now known as joubert 02:44:19 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:44:27 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:50 (map #'length (list '(1 2) '(1 2 3))) 02:46:47 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:47 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 02:46:47 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:33 i'm getting too few argument to map error 02:48:15 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:48:49 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:02 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:49:26 mapcar works though 02:50:41 dammit I have no idea what I am talking about 02:51:08 been writing scheme and it's all just melted into my lisp knowledge 02:51:39 (map 'list #'length (list '(1 2) '(1 2 3))) is what I should have said 02:51:52 mapcar if you don't want to say the sequence it's working on is a list 02:52:21 i see 02:53:35 i guess it becomes a problem when you code in several lisp-like languages. 02:54:21 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 02:55:02 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 02:59:05 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:00:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 03:07:10 TR2N` [i=email@89-180-198-214.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 03:11:12 <_deepfire> Heh, hunchentoot has its quirks. 03:11:35 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.129.192] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:11:38 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 03:11:47 papermachine [n=papermac@74.83.204.11] has joined #lisp 03:11:57 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B41D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:06 <_deepfire> Just discovered how it serves static files with + in their scriptname. 03:12:44 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.90.1"] 03:13:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-13-143.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:28 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 03:17:06 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:21:14 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:23:57 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:25 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.217.38] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:33:53 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B41D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:37:07 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d818a35.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:43 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:39:55 hi 03:41:43 el_rada [n=andrea@200.29.102.5] has joined #lisp 03:41:53 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:42:12 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 03:42:24 -!- el_rada [n=andrea@200.29.102.5] has left #lisp 03:43:28 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:43:49 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:38 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:46:14 is it save to assume that (dolist) does not guarantee order? 03:48:50 "does not guarantee order" is not really an assumption because you can't draw any conclusions from it 03:48:57 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Client Quit] 03:49:13 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:50:47 given a list (1 2 3) will dolist return the value of each object in the list in the order they are in the list? 03:50:48 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-9-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:51:22 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 03:51:38 lithper1: return? It will iterate over the list in order. 03:52:08 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 03:52:13 i see 03:53:09 -!- wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d816100.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:11 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 03:56:13 in cliki's paiprolog appears http://www-jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/paiprolog-0.0.svn30.tar.gz but there's somewhere http://www-jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/paiprolog-0.0.svn34.tar.gz , is it the last version? 03:57:18 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72d397.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:54 they're still from 2005 oct, very obsolete. 03:59:30 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-46-33.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:01:00 eldragon: it will still work, I think 04:03:10 eldragon: why would it be obsolete? 04:04:38 redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-074-232-249-027.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:53 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-074-232-249-027.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:06:51 redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-074-232-249-027.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:49 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f734589.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 04:09:00 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 04:09:01 Hi, I need treat an class instance as a class instance of a superclass explicitly 04:09:11 PassingStranger_ [n=Horst@p54BF71A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:30 davazp: you'll have to provide more context. 04:09:51 what do you want to achieve? 04:11:01 I am working with gray streams, I have A, a subclass of B 04:11:21 and I want to use peek-char in the specialization on B of stream-read-char 04:11:46 but this call to stream-peek-char of A, I think 04:11:58 -!- PassingStranger [n=Horst@p54BF4B75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:12:30 and why doesn't the stream-peek-char you wrote work? 04:12:38 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:14:37 davazp` [n=user@192.Red-88-8-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:48 sorry 04:16:44 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:19 pkhuong: I couldn't read you 04:17:33 I can provide some code if you want 04:20:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/92669 04:23:22 Why would you write a method whose body only consists of call-next-method? 04:24:02 pkhuong: in order to test this 04:24:40 pkhuong: if I call it, then it will invoke stream-read-char on crlf-stream, right? 04:24:41 If you find the need to explicitly call the parent class's method, you're probably abusing inheritance for composition. 04:25:02 davazp`: yes. What's your point? 04:25:40 then, if I there call to peek-char, will this invoke to system-peek-char on icalendar-stream? 04:26:21 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-074-232-249-027.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:26:21 whatever method for peek-char is applicable on icalendar-stream. 04:27:00 but I get troubles when I write the original stream-read-char for icalendar-stream 04:27:53 did you write the crlf code? 04:28:17 yes 04:28:19 -!- davazp [n=user@193.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:39 You're abusing inheritance here. 04:28:48 You don't want to peek-char at yourself, but at the wrapped stream; 04:29:05 It just so happens that that's what the default methods for wrapped streams do. 04:30:37 hm, well 04:30:53 I will rethink the code, thanks 04:34:05 -!- ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 04:38:18 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-99-164-63-126.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-13-143.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 04:40:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-13-143.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:32 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:43:46 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:48:04 shortsightedsid [n=shortsig@122.172.56.113] has joined #lisp 04:48:04 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 04:49:08 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:50:40 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:53 anyone know where to get the lisp sources for KIMMO? 04:52:14 or any AI repos that would maybe have it? 04:56:27 http://web.mit.edu/course/6/6.863/tools/pckimmo/pckimmo-interface/sgr-log.text 04:57:24 thanks Zhivago 04:57:36 Welcome, hope it is of use. 04:57:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 05:02:57 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:16:27 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:19:43 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:21:09 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:55 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:26:33 i know that atoms and lists are part of lisp, but what about the structs? are the structs part of common lisp too? 05:26:37 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:26:39 Yes. 05:27:00 but are not the structs emulated as conses? 05:27:32 No. 05:27:40 thanks 05:28:01 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:29:06 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:40 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:32:28 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:33:04 -!- davazp` [n=user@192.Red-88-8-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:33:34 the problem that i had with pure Prolog is that it couldn't interact with lisp functions, i hope that the prolog library on lisp can do my pending task, good bye. 05:35:24 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:10 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:38:13 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:45:27 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:46:38 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:54:19 anekos [n=anekos@pl1218.nas924.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:58:44 ace4016 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-!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.209.127] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:54:45 Axius [n=ade@92.85.209.127] has joined #lisp 08:54:49 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 08:56:48 #1=(programmable . #1#) is a looping list, right? 08:57:00 A cyclic list. 08:57:06 a circular list 08:57:24 *Adlai* wishes that claar were around and could draw circular lists 08:57:57 oh, sorry for the term, anyway, is circular/cyclic lists has real life use cases? 08:58:05 Yes. 08:58:33 yeah, but you have to be careful because some of the standard CL functions will enter an infinite loop if you pass them a circular list. 08:59:14 clhs #= 08:59:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 09:00:04 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:23 actually the page for ## is more helpful 09:02:36 Adlai: I guess probably most of them will, if I don't limit the element number that the function is applied 09:06:19 you could also use mapc, dolist or loop on a circular list, as long as you have some termination condition other than the list end 09:17:37 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.45.70] has left #lisp 09:19:27 lichtblau [n=user@pD95412B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:06 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 09:20:49 plage [n=user@123.19.45.41] has joined #lisp 09:20:55 Good afternoon. 09:25:08 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.217.38] has joined #lisp 09:25:45 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:25:45 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:54 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-100.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:28:24 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:28:29 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-28-143-21.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:44 Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:08 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:32:29 holycow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 09:32:32 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 09:34:21 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:37:55 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 09:39:01 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F3DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:10 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-26-165-46.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:42:56 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.12.197] has joined #lisp 09:43:13 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:51:23 Francogrex [n=user@91.177.59.96] has joined #lisp 09:51:39 Hi anyone awake? 09:51:39 Krystof [n=csr21@cpc2-dals3-0-0-cust104.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:00 I would like to build an oracle type of database using CL alone 09:52:30 what would you advise as best approach? I was thinking of using defstract mainly 09:52:37 defstruct 09:53:24 PCl chapter 23 has something but i don't know if that's the right approach 09:53:33 ch27 09:54:34 *_3b* suspects 'defstruct' is thinking at completely the wrong level for 'oracle type' 09:54:50 if you are asking that question, you will ignore all advice we give you and learn lots in the attempt 09:54:52 just go for it 09:54:59 (also, are you gavino?) 09:55:17 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:55:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.217.38] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:56:05 I'm not gavino at all, but i will not ignore the advice 09:56:37 I see that pcl ch27 has something (using clos) but i have one problem with it 09:56:58 when I shutdown my lisp the database is destroyed! 09:57:10 <_3b> so you don't really want oracle then? 09:57:13 and this will be different with defstruct how? 09:57:44 no different, just how can I keep my database as a flat file or something? 09:58:05 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A3258.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:58:26 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.209.127] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:58:36 by writing out your data to file (and reading it back in again) 09:59:07 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.242.34] has joined #lisp 09:59:08 Francogrex: You can find an example of saving a database to disk in for instance Gsharp. 09:59:28 there are existing object stores in bknr and rucksack 09:59:56 and object-relational mappings in clsql at least, probably other sql libraries (postmodern, whatever dwim.hu has) 10:01:11 ok 10:01:14 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:01:24 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:01:30 _3b: why you say I don't want oracle? 10:01:46 plage: Gsharp? 10:02:02 minion: Tell Francogrex about Gsharp 10:02:03 Francogrex: have a look at Gsharp: Gsharp is a graphical, interactive score editing application for standard Music notation. http://www.cliki.net/Gsharp 10:02:11 Francogrex: I just program the reader and printer to print my own objects in addition to existing Lisp objects such as numbers and lists. 10:02:12 <_3b> Francogrex: because your only problem with the PCL code was lack of persistance, which implies you don't actually care about all the other features of oracle (or any real DB) it lacks 10:03:31 _3b: i'm exploring, but if you give me an example of an important feature (in you view) that PCL ch27 lacks, i'll take it seriousmly into account 10:04:09 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:37 indexing 10:05:26 ok 10:05:46 -!- papermachine [n=papermac@74.83.204.11] has left #lisp 10:06:03 well clsql, needs sql, right? I intend to use on common lisp 10:06:25 only 10:06:31 right, so as I said, you can ignore everything we say and just plough on 10:06:33 <_3b> transactions, query optimization, replication, raw disk access, stuff like that 10:06:57 you will learn stuff; you probably won't construct anything useful, but you will learn stuff 10:06:58 *_3b* doesn't use oracle, so i can't actually give a good list 10:07:18 and you will do that more efficiently _without_ asking us, because what we will say is "you need to learn stuff before you can construct something useful" 10:07:57 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.217.38] has joined #lisp 10:08:18 and "look at this not quite relevant project that incidentally happens to do something similar to what you want somewhere" :) 10:08:28 Krystof: ok sure 10:08:46 cmm: ? 10:09:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-26-165-46.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:10:21 Francogrex: well, I for one would follow the link to Gsharp and quickly lose my original focus. but that's me and my focusing problems, you may well be immune to that 10:12:38 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:12:43 cmm: I am getting more and more convinced that the relational model is suboptimal in many cases, and that it is often better to program with your data structures in "main memory" and just save the graph to disk from time to time. 10:13:01 the relational model can be used in-memory, too. 10:13:28 tic: I suppose that's true. 10:13:55 (also, not everything maps properly to objects - I'm thinking how the human mind works: associative) 10:14:02 tic: But then you lose most of your structuring primitives that one is used to. 10:14:16 plage, which are the structuring primitives you talk of? 10:15:09 tic: Like building arbitrary graphs with implicit pointers and such. 10:15:26 plage, you lose them with the relational model, you mean? 10:15:31 yes. 10:15:51 plage: ostensibly low-tech solutions rule way more than they "should", in general :) 10:16:47 LCD, and all that. 10:17:30 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:18:02 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.78.31] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:33 the example off the top of my head would be defmacros vs. "higyenic" macros 10:20:33 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:20:53 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit ["gnome -> kde .. lessee if this'll work out .. brb."] 10:20:54 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:23:30 adu [n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:35 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 10:31:42 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-100.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:34:09 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:41:32 ok about defstruct in particular. I defined a STRUCTURE-OBJECT, made several instances then I realized I needed to add one more slot to the STRUCTURE-OBJECT that I forgot at the beginning. 10:41:48 sbcl says i'm RECKLESSL 10:42:01 is this "legal" 10:43:13 Francogrex, it's undefined consequences according to the spec 10:43:23 i see 10:43:38 so it's implementation dependent 10:43:44 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 10:43:44 maybe SBCL will let you update-instance-for-redefined-class 10:44:12 yes he gives the opportunity but insults you as being "reckless" nonetheless 10:45:39 Francogrex: What is the reason for using defstruct as opposed to defclass? 10:46:28 efficiency 10:47:31 So, efficient but wrong? 10:48:50 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:49:17 Moin moin! 10:49:45 hello pbusser 10:51:45 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 10:52:13 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:14 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 10:52:16 plage: just to try because it's available and it's not clos 10:52:59 Francogrex: Don't you like CLOS? 10:53:04 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:57:03 I like clos, but I also would like to use defstruct to learn it. It's neat as well 10:57:23 well, defstruct *does* have the more convenient syntax if all you need is a bag of slots 10:58:07 ... and a *horrible* syntax if you want uninitialized typed slots 10:58:30 maybe there should be a flag in the implementation that makes defstruct define standard-classes :) 10:59:14 cmm: indeed all that is needed now is a bag of slots as you say 10:59:34 Adlai: ( (error "oy!") ) is not *that* horrible, but yeah 11:00:02 cmm, maybe you'd be interested in http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=87637yafv6.fsf%40cantab.net 11:00:03 oh wait, I misunderstood 11:00:27 ( (assert nil) :type ) requires that the slot be initialized in the constructor 11:01:01 the way to have an -uninitialized- typed slot is (:constructor make-foo (.. &aux )) 11:01:14 right, yes 11:02:10 not that I've ever had that particular problem, but then I'm not in the business of implementing prototype object systems :) 11:02:12 afaik, SBCL is the only CL that supports that 11:04:14 subclassable structs don't solve the redefine-instances problem, although they are a hell of a neat idea regardless 11:04:55 -!- Francogrex [n=user@91.177.59.96] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:05:13 really? 11:05:17 please tell me what to do with them! 11:05:41 (actually I have one planned hack, but I'd be very interested in others' ideas) 11:06:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.217.38] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:06:34 Krystof, I think your idea of subclassing random-state, package, etc is probably a good one 11:07:24 Krystof: I find them abstractly neat, is all :/ 11:08:19 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:08:21 in the "possibility to subclass things that are structs for performance reasons" vein 11:09:17 monra [n=monra@147.52.197.223] has joined #lisp 11:09:36 is it possible do subclass alien data structures too? 11:10:09 -!- monra [n=monra@147.52.197.223] has left #lisp 11:11:50 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 in CCL, you can subclass Objective-C classes 11:12:29 *Adlai* -> food 11:12:51 good idea 11:13:51 cmm: if you have enough of the alien's object/type system runhtime reimplemented/linkedin you can always write code to subclass alien types 11:14:10 Objective-C just makes it easy due to it's object model 11:14:34 afk 11:14:45 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:20:37 Phoodus [n=foo@97-124-116-170.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:44 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has joined #lisp 11:27:14 mihk [n=mihk@xdsl-78-35-154-213.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:31:33 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 11:33:10 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:33:58 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:38:43 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-111-166.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:42:34 slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0B168.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:38 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0B168.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:47:05 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.12.197] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:48:28 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:49:50 slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0B168.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:59 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.45.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:06 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:53:28 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0B168.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:58:30 martin` [n=user@pD9E684AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:03:35 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:03:47 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-043-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:34 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:11:25 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:28 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:21:10 -!- martin` [n=user@pD9E684AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:22:26 -!- lithper1 [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:38 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 12:23:26 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD95412B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:12 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:04 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:39 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:37:07 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:54 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-10-58.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:38:11 hello lispers 12:39:00 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-198-214.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:05 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-043-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 12:40:13 -!- Ferrari_308_GTS is now known as fe[nl]ix 12:43:03 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 12:43:23 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F3DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:44:34 TR2N` [i=email@89-180-156-70.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 12:45:08 hello fe[nl]ix , Merry Xmas 12:45:17 hi kiuma 12:46:00 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 12:46:01 fe[nl]ix, do you know anything about Haskell ? 12:46:33 kiuma: there's #haskell 12:46:49 I know, I'd like to know a lisper POV about haskel 12:46:57 *Haskell 12:53:00 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:54:26 kiuma: read http://book.realworldhaskell.org 13:01:28 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:53 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:28 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 13:12:59 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Success] 13:17:49 plage [n=user@123.19.45.41] has joined #lisp 13:19:31 kiuma: I wouln't recommend you base your opinion about Haskell on what Lispers think. 13:19:54 and vice versa 13:20:09 Indeed. 13:21:25 even though those haskellers truly are snooty academic wankers who no nothing about real-world programming. or something 13:21:33 benny [n=benny@i577A177C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:34 *know 13:22:00 cmm: How is that for an unbiased, objective opinion? 13:22:21 there was this funny picture that everyone has probably already seen a hundred times in the last week 13:23:22 cmm: For a more scientific opinion, I suggest you ask my colleague, Philippe Narbel, who does research in programming languages, and who had some devastating questions for Paul Hudak when he was in Bordeaux. 13:23:37 plage: any record of that? 13:24:24 cmm: Tough one. I don't know. Ask Philippe: narbel@labri.fr. He would be delighted. 13:29:24 plage: thanks! would hate to waste the chap's time, since I don't really have much use for programming language argument ammo anyway (because I avoid the arguments). but are you sure his arguments would look devastating to any knowledgeable observer? if true, they'd be all over the relevant fora by now 13:29:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:47 cmm: Again, I am sure he would be delighted to communicate with you about this. And I don't think that it would automatically make the headline news, just the way the fact that Lisp is strictly better than Java or C++ doesn't seem to excite the world. 13:32:13 plage: because it's not a fact at all 13:32:59 cmm: It depends on your point of view. Nothing is ever objective in programmin languages, and that's what the main problem is. 13:33:21 unless you strictly equate goodness with expressivity, on which reasonable people reasonably disagree 13:33:35 quite 13:34:06 People don't even agree on that. Some people think it's good to protect mediocre programmers from themselves. 13:34:43 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.90.1"] 13:35:01 "I for one care less for them" (Frank Zappa, though he might have quoted someone else). 13:35:22 if you accept both the necessity of hiring mediocre programmers and the proposition that they won't learn better without incurring catastrophic costs, then there you go 13:35:24 Any statement with the phrase "strictly better" in it is probably propaganda. 13:35:29 and some people just want a simplified perl with more c-like syntax and less sigils to generate their homepage instead of CGI in Perl... then release it as open source and fecal matter hits the overhead rotary air cooling system 13:35:52 cmm: I don't accept those propositions. 13:36:39 p_l: They usually don't realize that that is what is happening to them though. 13:36:51 true 13:36:53 Zhivago: fair enough. 13:39:23 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-99-154.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:23 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit ["so long.."] 13:39:44 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:50 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has joined #lisp 13:48:38 Joreji [n=thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:49:13 spacebat1 [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-160-211.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:52 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6F5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:24 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-7-200.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:00 joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:03 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-10-58.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:00:03 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d90-129-209-54.cust.tele2.at] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:00:57 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-10-58.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:00:57 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d90-129-209-54.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 14:01:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:03:03 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-99-154.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:03:21 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 14:03:29 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [No route to host] 14:04:08 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:08:01 -!- skeptomai|away [n=cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Getting off stoned server - 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(which is fine with me) 14:58:06 *pbusser* is still rather new to Common Lisp. 14:58:26 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:28 likvid: Check the HyperSpec. 14:59:44 yea sorry 15:00:04 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-2-78.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:00:17 There is no need to appologise. It's just that the HyperSpec is more accurate than I am. :-) 15:00:23 TR2N` [i=email@89-180-214-111.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 15:01:31 the "push" and "pop" functions are just cons and cdr 15:01:45 well, not quite for pop, I guess. 15:02:06 cons and cdr spiced up with setf I suspect. 15:05:53 francogrex [n=user@91.177.59.96] has joined #lisp 15:06:08 today I discovered that I'm a GOD 15:06:47 GOD? Goofy Old Dog, or what? :-P 15:06:56 i could connect sas to lisp fas files 15:07:31 pbusser: GOD like the one who created the universe :P 15:09:17 The one who hacked the world together in perl? 15:11:09 dandersen: hmm (grunt); anyway it was good to get sas to connect to lisp that way, now sas users can code in lisp without feeling bad 15:15:05 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 15:15:06 delYsid` [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:15:55 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:15:55 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:15:55 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:15:55 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6F5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:15:55 -!- spacebat1 [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-160-211.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] 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legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-9-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:18:17 udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:18:39 austinh [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:46 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:19:08 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:19:22 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 15:20:15 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 15:21:21 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-67-249.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:21:22 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:21:40 I'll ask my collegues to bring some incense and candles to light to me when I enter the office on Monday 15:22:35 haha 15:22:35 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:09 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.34] has joined #lisp 15:24:49 sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:49 LiamH 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as dandersen 15:36:06 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:48 is there a way to get help on a command in a repl? 15:36:52 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.198.181] has joined #lisp 15:37:00 or under slime? 15:38:11 benny [n=benny@i577A177C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:39:17 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:39:20 yates, you could try CL:DOCUMENTATION. in SLIME, there are a bunch of various keybindings for doing various kinds of introspection. 15:39:20 yates: what kind of command ? 15:39:22 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:39:32 the command "cd" 15:40:10 Adlai: can you be more specific? what do i do with "CL:DOCUMENTATION"? 15:40:11 yates: shell command or some internal command in your implementation? 15:40:18 you -call- it. 15:40:20 clhs documentation 15:40:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm 15:40:45 -!- carlocci 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-!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:40:45 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:41:20 the exact documentation varies between implementations, though 15:41:21 i'm getting it from the defun of dump-db in the pcl: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html 15:41:54 as he's defun'ed it, it doesn't work in my slime 15:42:12 and i was just trying to understand some of the commands, hence my question on cd 15:43:13 http://fpaste.org/aCqG/ 15:43:53 can someone please help? 15:44:12 meow? 15:44:16 what's your problem? 15:44:29 dump-db doesn't work 15:44:36 you're treating DUMP-DB as a variable, not a function 15:44:39 CL has two namespaces 15:44:46 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-252-204.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:44:51 doh! 15:44:59 yates: please paste the form that caused that error 15:45:11 i did ^^^^ 15:45:29 sorry, it was simplye 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[n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:45:53 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-40.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:45:53 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:53 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-232-222.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:53 akamaus [n=maus@94.231.112.177] has joined #lisp 15:45:53 shrughes [n=shrughes@pool-108-2-120-130.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:53 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:53 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 15:45:53 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:53 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:45:54 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:45:54 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:54 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 15:46:10 weirdo hit it on the head: function, not symbol 15:46:19 -!- cmm [n=cmm@109.64.113.230] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:26 thanks weirdo 15:46:27 py_rocker [i=7aa281d6@gateway/web/freenode/x-ktishvpuuvpgxoqd] has joined #lisp 15:46:31 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:46:40 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 15:46:56 what were you trying to do by evaluating that symbol ? 15:47:13 Which book is good ``Practical Common Lisp" or ``Ansi Common Lisp" 15:47:30 Both. 15:47:31 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:47:38 I am already a programmer. 15:47:44 Both. 15:47:48 fe[nl]ix: i was trying to dump the db 15:47:51 py_rocker: PCL is much better 15:47:59 dandersen: Which one should I follow to start my study of Lisp 15:48:04 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-40.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:06 yates: *db* 15:48:18 py_rocker: definitely PCL 15:48:18 no, in the 'prettified' format 15:48:20 py_rocker: ANSI Common Lisp then PCL, but the people in this channel have a soft spot for PCL. 15:48:28 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-154.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:45 PCL has better style than graham's book 15:49:11 if you want to use ANSI Common Lisp, also read http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 15:49:54 i'm really not getting the (cd *db*) form in this example 15:50:03 yates: (dump-db) 15:50:09 why doesn't that treat cd as a function with the argument *db*? 15:50:10 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:27 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:27 yates: that's not a function call, but part of the DOLIST macro 15:50:41 -!- lukjad007 is now known as Superman 15:50:43 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-160-211.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:49 (defun date () (multiple-value-bind (a b c d e f g h i) (get-decoded-time) (list f e d))) 15:51:10 -!- Superman is now known as Guest86944 15:51:13 how to het (date) to have a fixed stamp? 15:51:19 Ok guys, perhaps its a tough question and demands a tough answer, but here I put forward to you: I want the book which would be covering more of like `how to think in Lisp' and not just teach me the syntax. 15:51:34 oh, just forget what i wrote above: FORGET 15:51:42 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-57-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:51:46 yates, no problem, man 15:51:52 i thought, per lisp rules, such syntax would always result in evaluating the function cd. it's not quoted, so it's evaluated. how am i going wrong? 15:51:57 py_rocker, I highly recommend PCL in that case. especially the chapter about the unit test framework. 15:52:05 -!- Guest86944 is now known as lukjad007 15:52:13 yates, (describe 'cd) 15:52:15 fe[nl]ix: your response seems to contraduct lisp rules 15:52:16 py_rocker: then I would say SICP or PAIP 15:52:23 hmm 15:52:35 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:44 francogrex: what are those? 15:52:47 py_rocker: PAIP is good. 15:52:49 minion: tell py_rocker about PAIP 15:52:50 py_rocker: please look at PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 15:52:52 weirdo: ok, i did - now what? 15:52:53 but you need to leanr the syntax before 15:53:03 py_rocker: there are no clear-cut answer. PCL comes highly recommended. PG's books have less praise I think, but also worth reading. For CLOS you need the book from Keene and you also want AMOP. I would also recommend CLTL2 and the Hyperspec. There is no "Common Lisp Bible" that excludes all other books. 15:53:44 hypno: the hyperspecs could be thought of as a bible 15:53:46 yeah yeah I remember this book. It was on one of the Lispers highly recomended bok 15:53:52 weirdo: http://fpaste.org/Y6Xw/ 15:53:59 py_rocker, i'd go for: PCL (general Lisp), On Lisp (macros), the book by Sonya E Keene about CLOS (for, well, OOP and CLOS know-how) and The Art of the Meta-object Protocol (for more CLOS and MOP know-how) .. in that order .. there really is no _one_ book that has it all 15:54:03 thanks, But doesn't that require previous Lisp knowledge? 15:54:05 py_rocker: I bought it and learned Lisp from it. I can recommend it. 15:54:07 i see it's not a function, if that's what you mean 15:54:33 yates: each macros has its own evaluation rule. in this case it's DOLIST 15:54:35 dandersen: from ground zero of Lisp? I mean I have no previous Lisp experience 15:54:36 and i see the basic idea - cd is a temporary variable taking on each entry in *db* trhough the loop 15:54:36 py_rocker: there are the 1st few chapters that introduce lisp to novices 15:54:49 py_rocker: Having no previous programming experience. Lisp was my first language. 15:55:17 dandersen: and your first programming book was PAIP? 15:55:20 Indeed. 15:55:23 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-9-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:55:38 I'd skip on lisp. 15:55:41 dandersen: thats a remarkable sucess story. How did you like Lisp? 15:56:07 It's still my favorite language, though I don't get to use it too often. 15:56:15 Clojure might change that, however. 15:56:36 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-40.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:56:42 But Clojure looks different, and I'm too lazy to check it out yet. 15:57:02 py_rocker: but then from chapter 4 of PAIP onwords, there is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be... 15:57:11 why why? I came to know on ##programming that with Lisp, I would be able to program better in other languge but I won't be able to use Lisp that much for real. 15:57:29 yates, the CD symbol isn't defined to be a function, a macro, or anything 15:57:47 py_rocker: Because few people will hire you to write Lisp. But if you're good, you can work for yourself (start-up company). 15:58:02 yates, it doesn't have a special value either 15:58:15 people who aren't on #lisp are much less likely to use Lisp than those here, right. 15:58:22 hmm, it seems like push and pop aren't destructive on lists, is that true? 15:58:40 I am a open source enthusiast. I don't fu*kin care if i someone hire me or not with Lisp. I have C,C++,Python for that ;) 15:58:46 py_rocker, and yes, lisp helps with style in other languages, even perl 15:59:35 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:59:43 Lisp helps u become a better smarter person in general 15:59:45 AMOP is rather low-level about MOP 16:00:10 py_rocker: Just don't Greenspun in C++. 16:00:13 Will I be fast/elegent/productive programmer with Lisp 16:00:32 no 16:00:46 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FE52.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:47 weirdo: my problem is this: i thought, in lisp, ALL forms, BAR NONE, that weren't quoted were evaluated. so (cd xyz) would run the cd "command" with argument xyz. is this incorrect? 16:00:59 it is incorrect 16:01:18 have a read of 16:01:33 ok Krystof 16:01:34 py_rocker: Languages don't turn you into a good programmer. Lisp encourages you to write more elegant code, but you can still screw up and write crap. 16:01:35 particularly the "Evaluation Model" section 16:01:46 yates, there are no commands; there are functions, macros, special forms and compiler macros 16:01:57 yates, you probably meant the "change directory" foo 16:02:02 use ,cd for that 16:02:17 ok guys, so I am picking PCL or PAIP for Lisp, thank you for your time. We will meet soon. 16:02:30 py_rocker: Add Lisp In Small Pieces to your list, when you've decided you like Lisp. 16:02:30 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-252-204.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:03:05 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03:17 for MOP I recommend Iser Level Language Crafting as introductory text 16:03:22 *User 16:03:23 ok practical question, remeber this: (defun date () (multiple-value-bind (a b c d e f g h i) (get-decoded-time) (list f e d c b a))) 16:03:47 and now: (defparameter *R1* (make-DATABASE :Prod "P1" :Country "CA" :Age 23 :Status "Sold" :date (date))) 16:04:07 dandersen: one more question specifically to you, How much time it took you to learn Lisp. You may answer like this: It took me about ______ time to get profficient in Lisp so that I could develop _______program 16:04:37 py_rocker, also, read AMOP for great justice 16:04:55 minion: what is AMOP 16:04:55 maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot 16:04:56 jordy [n=jordy@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:02 minion, amop? 16:05:02 amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 16:05:23 which language is minion been programmed? 16:05:26 weirdo: aren't there also symbols? 16:05:37 *R1* gets the date as it was defined when it was entered; how to get it to dynamically change everytime? 16:05:40 yates, symbols are evaluated differently 16:05:42 -!- jordy [n=jordy@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:05:48 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:05 yates, and there's a difference between evaluation and data types 16:06:26 weirdo: so you mean "a thing inside parentheses (thing ...) isa function, macro, ..."? 16:06:32 yates, yes! 16:06:34 :-) 16:06:49 Or something else. 16:06:53 py_rocker: That's a hard question. 16:06:55 Dr! 16:06:59 symbols when put by itself (after macroexpansion) can stand for special or lexical value 16:07:18 dandersen: an aproximate answer would do 16:07:21 but other data types like vectors, numbers etc. always evaluate to itself 16:07:33 as for evaluation, it's only list or symbol 16:08:09 py_rocker: It took me three days to realize I wasn't nuts for choosing Lisp as my first language, and maybe a few weeks to know all the basics. 16:08:37 weirdo: and if list, evaluation continues recursively on the first "thing" in each list? 16:08:40 py_rocker: But writing applications means learning much more than the language. The above is a vague answer. 16:08:51 yates, it doesn't continue recursively, it's not scheme 16:08:52 TR2N` [i=email@89.180.212.99] has joined #lisp 16:09:03 huh?! 16:09:14 yates, first evaluated-list element can be (or symbol (cons (eql lambda) ...)) 16:09:32 dandersen: True, thats why I am asking you. Because you were not a programmer while learning Lisp, I am. Perhaps it serves an advantage 16:09:34 in english, please 16:09:46 aka, i lost you 16:09:56 yates: it's well described in the document I pointed you at several minutes ago 16:10:07 read that first, then come back with more questions 16:10:13 ok, good idea 16:10:15 thx 16:10:45 ! 16:10:48 py_rocker: I suppose I had an advantage, seeing as I had a strong background in logic, and knew no other programming languages (which means I wasn't the opinionated asshole I am now). 16:11:09 *weirdo* saw lisp in anime 16:11:24 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:11:28 dandersen: But then you wouldn't have been able to appretiate Lisp as such 16:11:44 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.221.84] has joined #lisp 16:12:11 py_rocker: Oh, believe me - The joy you get from using Lisp after being exposed to Java is nothing compared to the pain one feels by using Java after learning with Lisp. 16:12:13 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:12:23 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.59.96] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:39 dandersen: not much at all? 16:12:56 dandersen: fortunately or unfortunately I have never touched Java 16:12:57 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-214-111.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:12:59 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 16:13:30 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-109-64-113-230.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:33 wth.. (loop for a on #(1 2 3) do (format t "huh~%")) on sbcl doesn't error? 16:13:34 pkhuong: I'll tell you how I feel about Java when I can figure out an analogy. 16:14:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:02 dandersen: oh the pain.... 16:15:02 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["time to brush my teeth"] 16:15:05 adeht: It checks for the end of the list as if by using atom. 16:15:28 clhs 6.1.2.1.3 16:15:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abac.htm 16:15:35 pkhuong: I see, makes sense 16:15:56 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-24-145.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:17:01 weirdo: let's guess.... S.E.Lain, when Lain programs on her portable navi in CL? :D 16:17:10 p_l, yes, of course 16:17:26 :D 16:17:35 also, a person told me about lisp 16:18:24 *p_l* so far had seen CL, C, Objective-C and C++ used in anime (accordingly: Lain, Lain, Onegai Twins, Yoku Wakaru Gendai Mahou) 16:19:14 I can't recall seeing Java :D 16:19:49 p_l: is that "I don't understand these modern witches", or "Witches that don't get the times"? 16:20:16 sykopomp: Properly Understood Modern Magic 16:20:43 -!- py_rocker [i=7aa281d6@gateway/web/freenode/x-ktishvpuuvpgxoqd] has quit ["Page closed"] 16:20:45 bloody homonyms :D 16:20:53 (and context-dependant meanings) 16:21:45 right :\ 16:21:58 sykopomp: both Gendai Mahou and Onegai Twins actually contain code that is related to what is happening on screen 16:23:09 splittist [n=dmurray@ASt-Lambert-153-1-28-58.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:23:20 Merry Post-Christmas to all 16:28:14 -!- Phoodus [n=foo@97-124-116-170.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:31:13 (defmethod merry-christmas :after (...) ...) 16:31:17 ..or something.. :) 16:36:16 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:36 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 16:36:52 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 16:40:47 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6F5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:43:32 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 16:43:54 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 16:45:47 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-24-145.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:49 Reav_ [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has joined #lisp 16:47:15 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-31-48.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:52:43 nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:59:46 -!- shortsightedsid [n=shortsig@122.172.56.113] has quit [] 17:00:25 Reav_1 [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has joined #lisp 17:01:27 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:02:26 -!- esden [n=esdentem@repl.esden.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:28 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:08:08 sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:30 -!- nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 17:11:37 pr [n=pr@p579CA577.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:16 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-043-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:41 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-043-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 17:14:52 Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has joined #lisp 17:17:48 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-31-48.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:14 -!- likvid [n=david@81-224-219-56-no48.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:18:35 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-208-161.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:19:35 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-56-28.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:21:09 lispm [n=joswig@e177127184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:36 slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1DF0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:21 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1DF0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:23:21 lispm pasted "SBCL: performance problem with FORMAT and string output stream" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92687 17:24:04 the first variant runs extremely slow 17:24:24 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:36 lispm: bind *print-pretty* to nil. 17:25:02 The pretty printer is really bad at finding the length of the current line. 17:26:08 also, you probably want princ, not format in your "fast" case. 17:26:24 yes 17:26:29 -!- mihk [n=mihk@xdsl-78-35-154-213.netcologne.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:26:29 thanks 17:26:39 the code was not by me 17:27:01 princ or write-string 17:27:18 even better would be to pre-allocate a buffer of just the right size and blit the string into it ;) 17:27:20 -!- Reav_ [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:24 right 17:27:33 I recommended that already 17:28:15 but the version with "~a" was extremely slow, it was not obvious what the reason is 17:28:55 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 17:29:16 would it be possible to speed up the pretty print case? 17:29:45 rewrite the pretty printer 17:30:33 the whole one? ;-) 17:30:48 track the current column in the stream object. 17:31:34 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:09 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:21 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 17:32:22 Anyone here at the 26C3? 17:34:28 anyway, pkhuong, thanks for the help! 17:34:49 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:36:19 uranther [n=James@74-129-98-120.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:41 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.197.223] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:37:08 konichiwa [n=jdoe@180.94.203.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:39 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:42:51 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-208-161.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:52 Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has joined #lisp 17:46:48 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:12 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 17:48:39 <_deepfire> Does anybody know what's up with cyrusharmon.org ? 17:50:19 check out (defun foo (l1 l2) (reduce #'+ (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (abs (- (first x) (second x))) ) (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (list x (pop l2)) ) l1))) ) 17:50:34 calculates sum |x_k - y_k| where x_k is in l1, y_k is in l2 17:51:26 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.84.184] has joined #lisp 17:51:46 -!- partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:10 partisan [n=partisan@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 17:53:09 konichiwa: you don't need that pop gimmick, mapcar takes multiple lists 17:53:16 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:53:24 hm, didn't know that, thx 17:53:39 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:48 (reduce #'+ (mapcar #'abs (mapcar #'- l1 l2))) 17:54:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:54:23 kpreid: you don't need nested mapcar, we have :key arguments! 17:54:40 reduce doesn't take multiple lists :) 17:55:13 (reduce #'+ (mapcar #'- l1 l2) :key #'abs) 17:55:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 17:57:15 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:31 ah, duh 17:57:49 (loop for x in l1 for y in l2 sum (abs (- l1 l2))) 17:58:03 lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:49 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:02:16 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 18:05:19 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-10-58.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:05:21 LOOP is so flexible in its ways but feels wrong 18:05:30 minion: memo for nyef: would things be much simpler if we stuck conses in their own allocation pages? That way we could sever the link between lowtags and widetags. 18:05:31 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 18:06:04 pkhuong: wouldn't that be extra cost for looking in a page table? 18:06:15 kpreid: only during GC. 18:06:24 I mean to find out the type of an object 18:06:33 right, only during GC. 18:06:39 A few years ago, someone collected a table comparing the keybindings of gnu/x emacs with hemlock and zwei. Anyone still have the link to that? 18:09:13 Younder [n=jthing@233.159.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:11:04 Joreji_ [n=thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:24 redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-074-232-249-027.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:22 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:26 dazorka [n=user@p57A7CEA4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:02 caoliver [n=bogusguy@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:22 lichtblau: that was me. Let me see if I can find it. I think my ISP has rebranded a few times since then. 18:16:33 pkhuong: wouldn't it slow down e.g. consp? 18:17:29 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 18:17:44 kpreid: no. We have a lowtag for lists. A cons is a list that's not nil. 18:17:48 lichtblau: http://pagesperso-orange.fr/a.d.m/climacs-commands.html 18:18:28 -!- caoliver [n=bogusguy@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:19:00 kpreid: conses are special because they don't have any header: they're just two raw lisp objects one after the other. 18:19:09 right 18:19:21 (wow - 2005-8-19 10:23:37) 18:19:23 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:43 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:46 joswig [n=joswig@f054053192.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:10 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 18:22:09 splittist: thanks, very cool 18:23:03 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:27 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:25:20 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.197.223] has joined #lisp 18:25:45 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-28-118.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:28:57 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177127184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:15 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d90-129-209-54.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:48 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:31:06 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:34:25 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:26 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:39:35 Xach: http://i.imgur.com/CdhrQ.png <- new level.. used vecto to get vertices ;0 18:40:39 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:53 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:43:06 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-12ld81k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 18:44:11 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-28-118.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:47:40 Are people still using things like Climacs? 18:48:01 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit ["so long.."] 18:48:29 pbusser: I'd say "still" isn't the right adverb. "yet" is more appropriate. 18:48:50 pkhuong: What do you mean? 18:49:36 *dandersen* facepalms. 18:51:58 no, people are using things like Climacs 18:54:23 adeht: how long till your game is done? 18:54:29 *boyscared* loves tower defense games 18:55:34 boyscared: haha.. I don't think about that.. you can hack on it if you like: http://github.com/death/towers/ 18:59:22 BMeph [n=BMeph@65.103.151.24] has joined #lisp 19:00:13 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 19:09:25 if you're planning on adding original stuff, you might wanna check out Immortal Defense (windows only, i think). 19:09:41 best fixed-path tower game i've played 19:12:13 wasn't familiar with it.. thanks 19:17:51 TR2N` [i=email@89-180-133-254.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 19:19:39 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-23-9.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:21:03 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.212.99] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:25:21 adeht: hah 19:25:22 Xach, memo from pkhuong: there's a problem on your end with tags in your sanitiser (the closing slash is lost). that's why more than 50% of my latest entry appears as a link on planet lisp! 19:26:38 pkhuong: ah, gotcha. planet lisp doesn't support xhtml. 19:26:42 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:26:55 adeht: vecto or zpb-ttf? 19:27:03 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:26 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 19:28:21 Xach: vecto, because it was easy to use %draw-string/paths:make-discrete-path/path-iterator.. 19:28:28 -!- Reav_1 [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:28:45 (or the function called by %draw-string, actually) 19:28:48 adeht: ah. zpb-ttf has a control-point iterator construct, fwiw 19:29:06 I see.. I was already familiar with cl-vectors though 19:29:25 at one point I experimented with it for towers 19:29:28 cl-vectors uses zpb-ttf underneath :) 19:29:29 Xach: mm... is that easily fixable? 19:29:34 Reav_ [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has joined #lisp 19:29:40 pkhuong: nope 19:29:44 I'd rather not revert back to html... 19:29:55 ok, i'll unsubscribe 19:30:12 I'll see if I can special case something. 19:30:14 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d90-129-209-54.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 19:30:16 Maybe cxml has a hack. 19:30:30 Xach: ah, for cl-paths-ttf.. I see 19:30:54 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-36-223.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 19:32:54 the closure html examples have an xhtml2html function 19:32:56 (But there must be lots of command line tools which can do the same. For example any XSLT processor.) 19:35:40 lichtblau: just have to switch to another canonical form that does explicit end tags (: 19:36:56 rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:01 -!- lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:37:18 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-40.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 19:37:51 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-232-127.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:42:48 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:47:25 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-23-9.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:23 aintme [n=user@249.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:55:59 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 20:01:21 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:34 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 20:10:36 nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:45 -!- porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:22 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:24:26 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:26:14 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-207-169.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:27:15 zeroish [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:39 adu [n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:32 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-56-28.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:31:49 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:35:35 -!- nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 20:36:57 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:33 nathan7 [i=nathan@unaffiliated/nathan7] has joined #lisp 20:42:19 -!- nathan7 [i=nathan@unaffiliated/nathan7] has left #lisp 20:42:42 -!- udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:43:19 udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:45:32 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:46:57 -!- joswig [n=joswig@f054053192.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:08 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:48:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:51:00 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:46 -!- dazorka [n=user@p57A7CEA4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:53:26 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:50 dazorka [n=user@p57A7CC03.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:21 ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 20:59:01 hello, teepeedee2 uses a function "make-byte-vector" but I can't find it defined anywhere, any tips? 20:59:28 Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.222] has joined #lisp 21:02:21 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d90-129-209-54.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:38 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-207-169.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:03:39 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:03:46 ignotus: tried pressing M-. or don't you use emacs+slime? 21:04:01 -!- aintme [n=user@249.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 21:04:27 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:05:16 madnificent: I don't have the project loaded into my lisp (I don't want to go through installing the dependencies process) 21:06:18 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@ASt-Lambert-153-1-28-58.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:11:46 clbuild can't build cl-rdbms :( 21:12:00 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:12:13 as in, closer-mop is too new 21:12:45 ah, the wild west of lisp library land. 21:13:07 have any of you played with lispy? 21:14:30 Fade: have you? 21:14:37 http://blog.codeartist.org/2008/01/new-worlds-and-lispy-solutions.html 21:14:46 madnificent: I just started looking at it 21:15:50 ignotus: who wrote that again? the tpd2 guy is online from time to time... forgot his name :( 21:18:45 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:19:40 madnificent: john fremlin 21:21:00 Fade: I saw it on plo 21:32:53 maus_ [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has joined #lisp 21:33:40 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:03 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BC73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:10 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:39 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:35:02 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:36:06 topo [n=topo@201.230.202.21] has joined #lisp 21:36:06 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 21:36:11 hi 21:39:56 dazorka_ [n=user@p57A7CAAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:05 snowbeard [n=user@cpe-076-182-111-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:02 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 21:43:17 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:19 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-28-118.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:48:46 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:48:58 -!- akamaus [n=maus@94.231.112.177] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:45 francogrex [n=user@40.88-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:50:20 dumb question: I have a flat file (tab separated). 21:50:54 I want to read in the data in my lisp, change some values and save the changes in the tab-file 21:51:24 is there a way to do that using like with-open-file but WITHOUT rewriting the whole file? 21:51:41 I mean just doing the point changes here and there? 21:51:48 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:40 -!- dazorka [n=user@p57A7CC03.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:43 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:55:30 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.222] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:55:45 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:57:12 ? 21:57:24 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:58:04 weirdo: clbuild doesn't have the right repos for those libraries. 21:58:38 i see 21:58:40 (I have a special clbuild project list somewhere, and should really clean it up and publish it.) 21:59:17 The documented way of settings things up (as I understand it) is to go to http://dwim.hu, click the Documentation / Install Guide menu. 21:59:36 Then there's a section "Live" with the right forks of each project. 21:59:51 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 22:00:00 atilla's cl-syntax-sugar stuff makes the code look weird. 22:01:06 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:45 I don't think that's the only weird part. 22:01:48 The code is really very good though, various weirdness notwithstanding. 22:02:13 *Fade* nods 22:02:42 when I scanned through it, it just seemed profoundly ideomatic of a very small group of folks; it was sort of hard to read. 22:02:48 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [No route to host] 22:04:18 francogrex, files are read and written as streams if i understand correct, so no random access 22:05:13 Guthur; is that only the wat CL works or is there no random access at all in any language? 22:05:25 that's not CL specific 22:05:48 it's a pity... 22:05:50 there is some mainframe files that might allow it actually, can't remember 22:06:08 files/file types 22:06:23 i assume you aren't on a mainframe though hehe 22:06:47 since i don't understand what mainframe is, then i suppose i'm not 22:06:54 francogrex: Unless I'm wrong you can do the same thing in C 22:07:11 <_3b> you probably have random access, but that doesn't help much when you have variable record sizes 22:07:28 <_3b> so at minimum you probably need to overwrite everything after whatever changed 22:07:49 snowbeard: what do you mean? random acessin C? 22:08:12 firstly, I totally agree with what _3b said 22:08:16 clhs file-position 22:08:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_p.htm 22:08:26 _3b: i find it a "waste" to everytime, read in everything and then rewrite everything 22:08:41 <_3b> francogrex: so don't use tab delimited files 22:08:43 secondly in C you have functions like fseek or seek 22:09:03 so that you can move a specific byte position the file and write over it. 22:09:16 francogrex: you can seek using CL:FILE-POSITION 22:09:48 fe[nl]ix: beautiful 22:09:52 Guthur: you're spreading misinformation 22:09:54 <_3b> francogrex: unless your records are always the same size, or you have some 'no record' marker, seeking doesn't help 22:10:32 fe[nl]ix sorry i thought files were general read as streams 22:11:40 <_3b> francogrex: say for example you have "FOOBARBAZ", and you want to replace FOO with HOGE. there isn't enough space to write it there without moving the rest of the file, which means rewriting it 22:11:50 _3b: well the recorsd will change when you add or change stuff in the file 22:12:06 _3b: i see 22:12:19 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-043-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:27 <_3b> francogrex: same problem if you want to delete it, or write something shorter. you either add some empty records in the middle, which may or may not be a problem, or you rewrite the whole thing to move the rest up 22:12:40 francogrex: it seems like a false economy, considering all the other places overheads would be way more invasive. 22:13:12 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:13:14 :( yes it seems 22:13:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory-mapped_file 22:16:14 but good to know about CL:FILE-POSITION 22:16:19 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:17:10 so then it makes me wonder in those large databases, when they want to modify a field, they have to re-write the whole database everytime? seems odd! 22:17:16 <_3b> other options would be things like adding a 'no record' marker, so you can just delete the old value and add the new one at the end, or storing data as a full dump + a log file that can be replayed to restore the current state 22:17:28 Jabberwockey [n=jens@81.163.36.100] has joined #lisp 22:17:28 <_3b> francogrex: no, 'real' databases don't use flat files :p 22:17:51 <_3b> particularly not tab delimited 22:18:04 this is all reminding me rather uncomfortably of cobol. 22:18:06 heh 22:18:35 <_3b> for example you probably have to define a schema, with fixed record sizes, which can be overwritten in place 22:19:00 <_3b> or for blob types, write a fixed size index into some separate variable sized record store 22:19:27 _3b: fixed record sizes might be an 'easy' option 22:19:49 imo, this sort of scheme results in brittle systems. 22:20:02 do streams allow random access 22:20:04 ? 22:20:15 <_3b> Guthur: depends on the stream 22:20:20 i always thought of them as purely sequential 22:20:29 Guthur: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_file_p.htm 22:20:46 Guthur: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/files.html#random 22:21:06 short answer: yes 22:21:46 with a file it makes sense; obviously with something that's unbounded, like a network stream, the answer would be no. 22:21:47 <_3b> streams backed by some sort of random access storage (file, array, whatever) probably are, others (network,keyboard,etc) probably not 22:21:47 i seen the fileposition but that didn't really say whether its jumping to the position or incrementing to it 22:22:18 <_3b> "When position-spec is supplied, the file position in stream is set to that file position (if possible)" 22:23:42 -!- delYsid` is now known as delYsid 22:24:32 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-36-223.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:26:20 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-88-84.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:27:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:33:30 -!- Reav_ [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:34:32 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:34:53 ceineke_ [n=chris@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 22:36:59 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-133-254.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 22:37:34 ok anyway, how would I rewrite using a file-position, the example in the specs is rather vague to me 22:38:09 what's vague about it? 22:38:15 say i have this: (with-open-file (s "c:/test.txt" :direction :output :if-exists :error) (format s "this is my file")) 22:38:41 would want to change the s into Z in the file 22:39:10 (with-open-file (Z "c:/test.txt: ...) (format Z "this is my file")) 22:39:37 <_3b> call file-position before reading every part you might want to change, then call it again with the value you stored from the first time for the record you arechanging, then write the new data 22:39:45 Xach: (grunt): I meant the thiZ iZ my file! 22:40:15 (replace #\s #\Z (load-whole-file "c:/test.txt"))? 22:40:24 or is it substitute? 22:40:29 *Xach* can't remember without checking 22:40:46 <_3b> (or use a binary file, and you can calculate offsets instead of storing them all from file-position) 22:41:08 mind your line ends. :) 22:41:16 Xach: replace is like memcpy 22:41:16 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 22:41:33 substitute 22:41:41 ceineke__ [n=chris@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 22:43:20 mooglenorph [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:03 <_3b> though i guess if you are overwriting things in place, you should be using binary files anyway, so you can predict how much actually gets written to the file more reliably 22:44:12 Hi. How do I check if SBCL has threads enabeled? I thought it was (member :sb-thread *features*), but I just downloaded the binary and installed it, and that is turning up nil. 22:44:34 <_3b> mooglenorph: right, binaries probably don't have threads 22:44:52 <_3b> mooglenorph: (at least until next month or so) 22:44:55 _3b: Oh, I thought the linux binary was coming with threads enabeled these days. Sorry, my mistake. 22:45:14 _3b: ok but simply doing something like (with-open-file (s "c:/test.txt" :direction :input)(when (equal (file-position s) 3) (write-char #\Z s))) doesn't work? 22:45:30 _3b: thanks, I'll get to building then... 22:46:37 <_3b> francogrex: maybe, maybe not, no way to no without knowing implementation details 22:46:43 <_3b> *no way to know 22:47:11 <_3b> francogrex: the file could be utf16, and you might have seeked into the middle of the second character and corrupted the file 22:47:55 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-043-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 22:48:33 <_3b> also, you code makes no sense 22:48:49 i'm on winXP and using either ecl or sbcl. Why code makes no sense? 22:48:56 *_3b* hadn't actually read it, since it wouldn't have worked portably even if it were correct 22:49:05 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:25 so what the heck file-posiutioncan do? 22:49:31 <_3b> (file-position s) on a freshly opened file is probably 0, not 3 22:49:51 <_3b> i was assuming you were doing (file-position s 3) 22:50:04 _3b: but the file already has some data in it 22:50:17 3b: yes i was 22:50:18 <_3b> also, you can't write to a :input file 22:50:31 sorry thta was output, but 22:50:56 what was done the test.txt was re-written as balnk (i allowed suprsesede) 22:51:15 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:19 blank (me writes gibberish) 22:51:33 <_3b> well, first read http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#file_position and see what file-position means for text files 22:52:17 <_3b> clhs open 22:52:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 22:52:44 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:52:53 <_3b> then read what :supersede does 22:53:20 I know: here is what i had done: (with-open-file (s "c:/test.txt" :direction :output :if-exists :error) (format s "this is my file") (print (file-position s))) that gives 15 22:53:44 <_3b> why would it be an error if the file you are trying to modify exists? 22:53:49 which is where i expect the position to be at the end of afile 22:54:06 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:07 <_3b> ah, ok... that was just creating it 22:54:16 yes just creating 22:54:34 it's the second part that is annoying me 22:54:50 <_3b> well, just because it returns 15, doesn't mean you can rely on it returning 15 22:55:24 frankly the whole thing seems like a bad idea. :) 22:55:27 <_3b> unless you are willing to give up portability (and whatever implementation you use specifies that sort of thing and intends to keep it the same) 22:57:53 -!- ceineke_ [n=chris@24.235.36.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:36 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:47 Hello all. 23:00:47 nyef, memo from pkhuong: would things be much simpler if we stuck conses in their own allocation pages? That way we could sever the link between lowtags and widetags. 23:01:27 Ahh, right. Okay, now I understand. 23:01:31 pkhuong: Ping? 23:02:56 heya, nyef 23:06:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:09 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:03 pr_ [n=pr@p579CAC07.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:23 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:11:09 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 23:11:56 why does weblocks need its own webserver (huchentoot) rather than simply using something like mod_lisp? 23:12:57 fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA9D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:06 minion: memo for pkhuong: I fail to see it being "much" simpler, due to the extra complexity in having separate allocation regions for conses, stack allocation noise, still needing some of the widetags to be in lowtag space for things like characters, and so on. It also means that you effectively have two disjoint type systems for boxed words, and that may have issues as well. It would allow you to reclaim one 32-bit lowtag or thr 23:13:06 ee 64-bit lowtags, though, which isn't all bad. The 32-bit case is the possible win, for the instance-pointer lowtag in the wider-fixnum case. 23:13:07 Remembered. I'll tell pkhuong when he/she/it next speaks. 23:13:08 Oops. 23:13:16 <_3b> yates: why is that simpler? 23:13:31 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:44 minion: memo for pkhuong: 32-bit lowtag or three 64-bit lowtags, though, which isn't all bad. The 32-bit case is the possible win, for the instance-pointer lowtag in the wider-fixnum case. 23:13:44 Remembered. I'll tell pkhuong when he/she/it next speaks. 23:14:01 <_3b> yates: also, are you sure it /needs/ it as opposed to that just being the way that is currently implemented? 23:14:09 _3b: well it's more standard, isn't it, to use the apache server? 23:14:25 nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:27 <_3b> not really 23:14:28 _3b: well i dunno - i'm a total newb - hoping for some insight here 23:14:33 it's more standard to use PHP scripts to build your entire website, too 23:15:05 <_3b> lots of other languages use a native web server (possibly behind a reverse proxy) 23:15:58 yates: you can run hunchentoot with apache using mod_proxy. And the difference between mod_lisp and mod_proxy really isn't that big architecturally. 23:16:02 ... Do I remember rightly that the first things in static space are code-objects for the assembly-routines? 23:16:58 lichtblau: but isn't that essentially bypassing apache? 23:17:55 Ah, no, static symbols. Right. 23:18:13 -!- francogrex [n=user@40.88-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:20 lichtblau: for one thing, security concerns me 23:21:08 yates: can you be more specific? 23:21:19 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.213.44] has joined #lisp 23:22:29 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:22:53 adeht: if you needed an auto ride for a two-hour trip, would you rather get one long ride in a 2010 Mercedes, or a connection to a 1.75 hour ride in a 1985 VW Vanagon? 23:23:02 is there a cl implementation that i can install in iphone :) 23:23:25 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 23:23:27 -!- nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:23:51 not to be flippant, but isn't this pretty obvious? a lot of work goes into making apache secure that would very possibly be missing in a custom server like hutchentoot 23:23:57 yates: are you saying the older things are the more "secure" you feel about them? 23:24:34 <_3b> yates: so how would mod_lisp be more secure? 23:24:40 yates: you don't have anything specific then 23:24:46 kenanb: ECL 23:24:51 no, just general principles. 23:25:31 _3b: well i dunno - i need to read up. 23:26:16 _3b: but basically i thought that mod_lisp was just some sort of way to pass posts and gets and the associated responses to/from a running lisp program 23:26:39 <_3b> and mod_proxy isn't? 23:27:08 yates: maybe you should ask yourself why making apache secure is so much work 23:27:29 how should i know? 23:27:47 a web server is a big, complicated piece of software - lots of room for exploits, i would suppose 23:27:53 what would it take for ECL to support weak datastructures? 23:28:38 yates: apache is not a "web server", it's an http server.. and not all http servers have to be complicated pieces of software 23:28:48 -!- maus_ [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:52 isn't ECL fully ANSI CL compliant? 23:30:10 kenanb, I think so. Weak references aren't part of the standard, though. 23:30:11 adeht: is there really a semantic problem here? i mean, isn't "web server" == "http server"? 23:30:27 yates: if "web" means "http" to you, sure 23:30:57 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:31:04 adeht: how about to apache? see the second section here: http://httpd.apache.org/ 23:31:31 first sentence "The Apache Web Server" 23:32:03 ok.. not all web servers have to be complicated pieces of software 23:32:06 plage [n=user@123.19.45.41] has joined #lisp 23:32:33 Good morning! 23:32:36 Adlai: i see, i guess i didn't get what you mean by "weak datastructures" at first :) 23:32:38 Hello plage. 23:33:24 adeht: i agree "http server" is more precise. 23:33:49 yates: forget it, it was just a quibble 23:34:31 where does the term "steel bank" come from? 23:34:33 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152206.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:34:43 sbcl 23:35:01 Carnegie and Mellon 23:35:21 The name "Steel Bank Common Lisp" is a reference to Carnegie Mellon University Common Lisp from which SBCL forked: Andrew Carnegie made his fortune in the steel industry and Andrew Mellon was a successful banker. 23:35:26 http://www.sbcl.org/history.html 23:35:32 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 23:36:23 minion should be taught this. 23:36:57 minion si the channel bot? 23:37:14 minion, are you a bot? 23:37:15 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 23:37:37 minion, are you female? 23:37:38 yes 23:37:49 minion, are you male? 23:37:50 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 35 seconds is too many. 23:38:07 temperamental, too 23:38:16 typical female i'd say 23:39:15 pr [n=pr@p579CAC67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:51 WHAT. 23:39:54 minion is a female? 23:39:55 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:39:58 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:40:15 sure is acting like one 23:40:24 on her monthly, too 23:41:56 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442074.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:42:36 ha! 23:42:41 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:44:33 -!- ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 23:49:24 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 23:50:47 pff, bad software implicitly causes lounge cancer :\ 23:55:32 "lounge cancer"? 23:57:21 yes, shitty attitude of google sketchup makes me smoke, smoking causes lung cancer 23:57:28 ups, sorry, it was lung 23:57:32 not lounge :D 23:57:36 eheh 23:57:49 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.221.84] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:58:26 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:59:56 And here I was hoping for something clever like "cancer of the semicolon". 23:59:59 kenanb what's the problem with it?