00:04:04 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-8-105.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:05:33 i know this isn't really directly lisp, but, how can one swig more than one module in an interface file, it only seems to generate the lisp bindings for the top most module definition 00:06:29 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:06:39 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:07:56 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:08:30 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:10:40 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:48 umm suppose i just have to create separate interface files 00:13:01 -!- milanj- [n=milan@109.93.33.96] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:15:41 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:01 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:18:42 -!- whoppix_ is now known as whoppix 00:19:23 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:19:43 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:28 i see clisp is included on the swig exit list, is there a special facility with clisp for C/C++ 00:26:49 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:26:52 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 00:27:08 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225063166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:27:26 C and C++ are completely different beasts 00:27:35 might as well talk about scheme and CL :) 00:27:54 I think it just outputs the clisp FFI code 00:28:00 as opposed to cffi 00:28:00 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 00:28:06 well actually i was hoping for an answer relating to both 00:28:16 well, that's nonsense 00:28:17 i know CFFI is ok with C 00:28:32 can't see how its nonsense 00:28:39 can clisp cope with C++ 00:28:44 thats not nonsense 00:28:46 nothing can cope with C++ 00:28:52 *dandersen* nods. 00:29:04 even C++ has trouble at times :P 00:29:34 kk i was wondering, more specifically about c++ actually 00:29:41 *dandersen* sighs. 00:29:49 you are wondering nonsense 00:29:50 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:30:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:13 actually, it's kind of doable, but with lots of caveats and funkiness 00:30:16 and manual crap 00:30:20 have fun 00:30:23 And Satanic rituals. 00:30:35 just because the answer is negative does not make the question nonsense 00:31:06 there is a lot of c++ code around 00:31:09 :q! 00:31:29 it would be nice to have access to it 00:31:48 in a lisp context of course 00:31:51 it would be nice to have my computer cook me lunch 00:32:06 look at the qt "binding" 00:32:13 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:32:19 I don't think it works with general C++ code tho 00:32:34 but you'll find out when you investigate deeper 00:32:34 Guthur: C++ isn't that well adapted to truly separate compilation. 00:32:54 redblue [i=star@ppp200.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:33:29 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:35 tis a shame, its gained quite a popularity 00:34:56 hehe you could remove the comma in that sentence and it works just as well 00:35:17 Guthur: it's also widely known for only playing well with itself, and even at that, not always across compilers. 00:35:29 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:43 ya i've seen mention of compiler compatibilities 00:37:21 pkhuong: assert-type is interesting, but I don't think it's quite what I want here 00:37:44 templates were famous for being uncompilable for quite some time 00:38:02 tcr: doh, you're right =/ 00:38:20 -!- xan [n=xan@13.Red-83-36-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:38:50 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:04 ooh, tfb talked about block compilation 00:39:20 and foom is going to the dark side 00:40:41 dark side ? 00:40:50 fe[nl]ix: llvm. 00:45:45 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-49-51.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 00:48:53 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:50:30 minion: memo for Krystof I don't understand what you mean when you suggest special-casing BASE-CHAR. where? not in S-T-C-S-T, surely 00:50:31 well, i don't think memo for krystof i don t understand what you mean when me suggest special casing base char where not in s t c s t surely though 00:50:38 minion: memo for Krystof: I don't understand what you mean when you suggest special-casing BASE-CHAR. where? not in S-T-C-S-T, surely 00:50:39 Remembered. I'll tell Krystof when he/she/it next speaks. 00:50:47 minion: *thwack* 00:50:47 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``*thwack*''. 00:51:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Success] 00:52:44 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 00:53:57 froydnj: in S-T-C-S-T, I believe. If the char range is a subtype of base-char, do (and (typep x 'base-char) ...). 00:55:20 pkhuong: I don't think that's a good idea, since S-T-C-S-T is source-transforming (typep x 'base-char) 00:55:43 doh. 00:56:38 need something "atomic" like CHARACTERP is 00:57:42 quek [n=read_eva@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 01:00:56 hm, we don't need RETURN-PC-HEADER-WIDETAG on x86oids, do we? 01:01:17 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 01:04:06 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:04:29 oh, bleh, we use the single-float widetag on x86-64 for the lowtag 01:09:00 Is there an easy way in SLIME to delete a package and reevaluate a DEFPACKAGE? 01:12:38 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp200.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 01:18:31 froydnj: http://repo.or.cz/w/cl-llvm.git http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/llvm.git ; Cleanup and some documentation about what I've done coming soon. 01:25:24 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 01:27:43 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 01:28:11 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:31:11 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:35:07 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:11 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:40:42 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-87-237.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:41:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:42:04 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.69.89] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:06 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:44:54 Jigbooot [n=Jigboot@dhcp64-134-221-225.hoic.dca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:56 Tired of niggggras and their monkeyshines? Then join us at Chimpout Forum! At Chimpout Forum we are NOT WHITE SUPREMACISTS! Chimpout.com/forum values the diversity of the human races, welcoming with open arms Asians, Whites, non-negroid Hispanics, Indians, Native Americans, Jews, Mexicans, Semites, Arabs, Turks, Polynesians, etc.... basically everybody but the fecal-colored Negro Beast. Join us in the epic battle of humans 01:44:58 vs. negroes! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 01:45:11 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 01:45:30 -!- Zhivago has set mode +b Jigbooot!*@* 01:45:40 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has been kicked from #lisp 01:45:45 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 01:46:17 Why am I not even amused anymore. =[ 01:50:33 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:52:16 -!- george [n=george@189.107.196.61] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:53:22 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 01:54:34 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.69.89] has joined #lisp 02:03:06 flow98 [n=wIRCer@173-114-185-70.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:29 -!- flow98 [n=wIRCer@173-114-185-70.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 02:09:07 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 02:09:36 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-reqkgiwsayqghnqa] has left #lisp 02:11:06 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:10 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DF6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:16:42 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-199-65-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:03 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-199-65-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:36 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-199-65-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:04 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:08 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:41 foom: wow, does it go anywhere? 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03:49:16 how much of a beginner? 03:49:29 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-13-247.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:33 sykopomp: Complete beginner. 03:49:47 minion: please tell paradroid about gentle 03:49:48 paradroid: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 03:49:58 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:50:06 paradroid: I'd recommend Gentle Intro first, then PCL. 03:50:14 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:54 Is ANSI Common Lisp worse than PCL? 03:52:12 I don't know. 03:52:14 I like PCL a lot. 03:52:18 and PCL gets a lot of love. 03:52:50 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d815970.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:31 sykopomp: Would it be wiser to get ANSI Common and read PCL online? 03:53:35 -!- wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d81a9e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:53:48 paradroid: I have a dead-tree version of PCL, and am quite happy with it. 03:54:04 I also have a dead-tree version of Gentle Intro :) 03:54:38 Paul Graham has a weird style. I haven't read ANSI CL, though. 03:54:38 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:54:48 minion: graham crackers? 03:54:49 graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 03:55:37 and Graham doesn't give CLOS the love it so deserves :P 03:58:03 or conditions, IIRC. 03:58:18 I never really understood conditions/restarts until reading PCL. 04:01:12 PCL it is. 04:01:31 Good choice. ;-) 04:02:13 Can I use an sb-ext:with-timeout wrapped around an sb-thread:condition-wait? 04:02:35 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:07:00 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-8-105.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:01 sellout: You wrote bordeaux-threads? 04:12:12 gigamonkey: mostly ... 04:12:48 gigamonkey: I was going to answer your question with an "I think so ..." but figured that wasn't really so informative. 04:12:50 So a little leak in the abstraction: with-timout on, say, SBCL, signals a specific condition. 04:13:25 To be more portable should bt:with-timeout handle that condition and signal a new bt-specific condition? 04:14:28 gigamonkey: Probably, but I'd just mail the list if I were you. fe[nl]ix is really running bt these days. 04:14:52 which list? 04:15:19 Ah found it. 04:15:23 cool 04:16:19 And should I expect that a condition-wait will be able to return out of a with-timout, i.e. if the condition is notified before the timeout expires? 04:17:34 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-109-83.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:17:58 gigamonkey: Yes. 04:18:08 -!- paradroid [n=kevin@24-216-187-138.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:07 And indeed, that seems to be working. 04:28:50 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:48 cmsimon [n=cms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 04:32:16 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-lqmjtsgwpiawxiys] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:13 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-255-196-121.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:43 -!- blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:49:04 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 04:49:28 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 04:55:18 redblue [i=star@ppp126.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:57:29 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-197-249.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:37 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-213-161.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:14:36 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 05:15:00 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 05:19:13 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp126.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:03 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:24:20 redblue [i=star@ppp072.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:24:53 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:27:07 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 05:32:02 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.69.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:33:21 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633909.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:33:54 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:15 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:35:58 Demosthenes [n=demo@host162.155.212.34.conversent.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:35 galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-111.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 05:41:28 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-53-71.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:41:28 -!- galaxywatcher_ is now known as galaxywatcher 05:44:08 c|mell [n=cmell@102.22.111.218.klj02-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 05:46:34 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:34 -!- ski [n=slj@c-b213e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:03:39 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 06:04:03 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 06:08:26 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:15:09 -!- hicx174_ [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:16:41 hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 06:18:01 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 06:29:47 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 06:30:58 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 06:32:09 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:38:44 -!- rrice [n=rrice@99.164.109.247] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:40:12 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:35 minion: memo for gigamonkey: curious how your nanomo has gone. Oddly, I know three people who did that. 06:41:35 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 06:42:31 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:42:59 yay! lists as trees are cool. 06:44:24 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-231-102.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:45:40 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:14 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@102.22.111.218.klj02-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:37 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-111.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 06:57:12 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:19 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:00:02 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:53 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:03:26 slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:20 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:46 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:06:57 j0be [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 07:12:16 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:51 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:20:33 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-255-196-121.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:26:23 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:06 is there a good library for dealing with 'iterator' functions? e.g. combining two iteration functions MAP-HORSES and MAP-COWBOYS analogously to (mapcar #'f horses cowboys) 07:28:47 good morning 07:30:54 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@host162.155.212.34.conversent.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:32:12 c|mell [n=cmell@60.54.96.53] has joined #lisp 07:32:14 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 07:39:48 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:42:00 gonzojive: you can't do that 07:42:55 gonzojive: you'd need make-horse-iterator and make-cowboy-iterator; what are horse and cowboy in your case? 07:44:14 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 07:44:59 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:45:42 hello 07:47:05 ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.243] has joined #lisp 07:47:37 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has joined #lisp 07:49:04 tcr: I am writing them, so the internals are flexible. I would basically like something like Python's yield and iteration construct 07:50:05 No there isn't, you have to write by hand 07:50:46 SERIES may have some sugar for generators 07:51:04 there may be libraries that provide such sugar 07:52:25 ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:52:25 gonzojive: what are horses and iterators? 07:52:44 gonzojive: you may be able to use my sequence-iterators library 07:52:45 btree records 07:53:27 Ah well :-) you could use sbcl's extensible sequence protocol to flatten a btree, and then use my sequence-iterators to iterate such sequences 07:53:29 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:57 would make a nice show case 07:55:57 It's also a case where I'd wish that class names were lists. So you'd have btree-sequence as superclass, and then could have (btree-sequence :in-order) a subclass/subtype of it. 07:56:43 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:57:06 (map '(btree-sequence :in-order) ...) looks better then (map 'btree-in-order-sequence ...) imho :-) 07:58:58 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.234] has joined #lisp 08:01:26 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:30 aeron [n=aerrant_@129.101.136.195] has joined #lisp 08:03:49 I guess you could name the classes %btree-sequence and %btree-in-order-sequence, and then have a deftype btree-sequence which expands appropriately 08:04:22 However, I guess DEFCLASS expects class-names, and not typespecifier in the superclass list, and hence does not do type expansion :-/ 08:05:10 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:05:23 good morning 08:06:15 morning nikodemus, did you just see my mumblage? 08:06:45 any sbcl build bot admin? .. would like cat version-lisp.expr before make.sh 08:09:08 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:10 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:18 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-206-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:35 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:37 tcr: nope, i'm trying to make a case why we don't want libcl and explain what we do want 08:22:59 seamless integration? To a degree exceeding the language level 08:23:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:59 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:12 If you want to exceed only so slightly the language level and still be portable, you have to opt for least denominator 08:28:12 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fwnqmefpdifbprhw] has joined #lisp 08:28:25 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:30:44 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-206-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:31:09 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:31:14 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:31:23 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:34 good morning 08:35:06 good afternoon 08:35:09 What's the shortest way to convert a string to lower case in Common lisp, and to make the first letter uppercase? 08:35:40 clhs string-capitalize 08:35:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stg_up.htm 08:37:11 if that does too much (it actually capitalizes every word), you can do (unless (zerop (length string)) (setf (char string 0) (char-upcase (char string 0)))) 08:37:13 prxq [n=mommer@f051001040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:34 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:37:46 (be aware of string literals, though, those are "immutable") 08:38:10 (string-capitalize "foo foo" :end 1) 08:38:31 you, sir, win! (that needs the zerop test, too) 08:39:07 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:12 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:41:00 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:43:57 maus_ [n=maus@94.231.112.177] has joined #lisp 08:44:44 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:46:19 minion: memo for adeht: In your patch, do rather: (let ((arglist (find-immediately-...-arglist ...))) (when (arglist-available-p arglist) ...body...), also add a test case to the complete-symbol* test in slime-c-p-c.el 08:46:20 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:46:20 Remembered. I'll tell adeht when he/she/it next speaks. 08:47:24 huangjs` [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 08:47:43 Actually I'll reply by mail 08:52:51 tcr: i suspect the dirent-name thing is either a bug in sb-alien or a bug in sb-grovel/sb-posix 08:53:22 regarding alexandria's :static-file "tests.lisp" ? 08:53:27 can you put it on launchpad? (just mark it confirmed, give it a few tags etc) 08:53:34 tcr: oh, nope 08:53:48 then I do not know what you're talking about :-) 09:01:01 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-mfwqcegavtrcrgnd] has joined #lisp 09:02:08 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:26 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:08:20 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:09:36 xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:10:50 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nnnncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Getting off stoned server - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 09:11:14 skeptomai|away [n=nnnnncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:21 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:35 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@248.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:39 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:48 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d90-129-209-54.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:15 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d90-129-209-54.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 09:18:02 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:19:53 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:01 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-21-81.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 09:20:47 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:22:02 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:19 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:59 nikodemus: so dirent-name returns NIL when the char* ptr in a dirent structure is null? Is that possible? 09:30:19 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:57 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.234] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:11 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:33:26 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.234] has joined #lisp 09:33:54 jmbr [n=jmbr@209.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:34:12 tcr: sure it's possible. you might eg. not have initialized the dirent yet 09:34:39 -!- konr [n=user@201.82.136.87] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:36:48 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:14 -!- aeron [n=aerrant_@129.101.136.195] has quit [] 09:42:41 morning 09:44:11 morning!! 09:44:49 -!- nicklevine [n=chatzill@gannet.ravenbrook.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:45:04 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:23 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:53 nicklevine [n=chatzill@gannet.ravenbrook.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:00 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-111.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:52:14 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:45 hi Xof 09:54:58 -!- nicklevine [n=chatzill@gannet.ravenbrook.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 09:59:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:00:29 Axius [n=ade@92.82.92.181] has joined #lisp 10:02:11 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:03:53 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fwnqmefpdifbprhw] has left #lisp 10:04:25 -!- quek [n=read_eva@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has left #lisp 10:04:29 nicklevine [n=chatzill@gannet.ravenbrook.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:56 vng [n=user@123.20.57.120] has joined #lisp 10:07:05 maus [n=maus@222.253.75.214] has joined #lisp 10:07:23 Good afternoon! 10:07:47 hello maus 10:07:55 hi vng 10:07:58 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:12 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@dynamic-78-8-158-74.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:56 wow, looking at the weather reports I am glad SBCL10 wasn't a week later 10:16:10 snearch [n=olaf@g225051032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:16:24 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 10:17:04 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:31 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:36 Could be clear by next Monday. But if it had been today the room could have been empty 10:20:18 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-215-132.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:24:19 Demosthenes [n=demo@host162.155.212.34.conversent.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:43 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-16-96.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:29:33 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.92.181] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:29:39 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051001040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:30:20 lichtblau: indeed. It was nice to visit London for ~5 days and not get rain once. :) 10:32:23 why, oh why doesn't GETF have :TEST? 10:32:40 it would make such a nice builtin command line option parser 10:33:06 ditto for get-plist 10:33:15 i mean get-properties 10:33:49 we are happy with ita's command-line-arguments 10:33:58 Q: why do i get (:a :b . :a) from (append '(:a :b) :a)... I want (:a :b :a). What should I use? 10:34:32 j0be, append is for lists, use (list :a) 10:36:04 attila_lendvai: i need something for my .sbclrc, to select stuff to include in *central-registry* 10:36:05 attila_lendvai: aaaah okay (append ) check.. got it with (append '(:a :b) (list :a)) 10:36:25 b 10:36:32 *j0be* sry 10:36:42 so an external library is not quite what i'm looking for :) 10:37:05 nikodemus: bundle it! ;-) 10:40:42 prxq [n=mommer@f051001040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:47:18 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-16-96.iburst.co.za] has quit ["rebooting."] 10:49:54 what's the proper way to notify a thread about something urgent? 10:50:14 doing something like (interrupt-thread thread #'(lambda () (signal 'something-urgent))) 10:50:20 which works great, but I'm not sure it's that safe... 10:51:03 the lab is indeed fairly empty this morning 10:51:06 a couple of locals and me 10:51:17 we're expecting a guest speaker from the US this afternoon... 10:51:49 mishoo: you want the thread to check a queu at regular intervals 10:52:04 nikodemus: using condition variables? 10:52:41 it's a bit awkward because that thread waits for input on some sockets, and not sure how to use condition vars in this case.. 10:52:48 mishoo: use deadlines to periodically look for messages in a mailbox 10:53:06 rsynnott [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has joined #lisp 10:53:19 I'm not sure yet how good deadlines work with sockets, but I'm going to look at that because we need at work 10:53:30 in any case, do you think the hack with interrupt-thread and signaling a condition will bite? 10:53:37 Yes 10:53:56 at work it's what's there at the moment, and there are test cases that fail due to it 10:53:58 bah.. sorry. it was too beautiful :) 10:54:56 I'd like if sbcl came with stuff for that, a message system for threads. 10:55:12 in fact what I'm trying to do is to add a new client in that list of sockets; there's a master thread that listens, and on an incoming connection it should select a worker from a pool and tell it "dude, handle this one too" 10:56:13 nikodemus pasted "simple alerts for mishoo" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92307 10:56:39 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:44 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-120-202.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:56:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-109-83.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:56:53 Why does defun use &symbols instead of :keywords? 10:56:56 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 10:57:06 mishoo: the thing is, it is basically ALWAYS a bad idea to stop thread from the outside and force it to do something unpredictable instead of what it was doing 10:57:26 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:57:31 I see 10:57:43 deadlines work with sockets 10:57:51 thanks for the sb-queue sample 10:57:52 there is also *periodic-polling-function* 10:58:10 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:58:58 nikodemus: does it mean that I can call alert from some thread, and check-alerts from another? 10:59:08 mishoo: yes 10:59:09 (and also, no need to use locks for this?) 10:59:20 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 10:59:20 sb-queue is thread-safe 10:59:31 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FFE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:36 pretty cool then. I think it will do 10:59:36 thanks 10:59:48 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 11:00:19 It does not mean (sb-thread:interrupt-thread thread #'check-alert), though, of course :-) 11:00:51 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:01:04 :)) 11:01:06 yep, I got that 11:01:42 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 11:01:47 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:02:20 mishoo: sb-queue is in the manual -- unfortunately the manual on the website is too old, it seems 11:04:53 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:06:13 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:06:57 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:23 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 11:09:21 Xof: so did you look at patch-tracking on launchpad? 11:09:30 no 11:09:35 I just noticed that sentence in a blog 11:09:44 yesterday I got caught up in the admin backlog 11:11:48 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-120-202.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:14:57 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-47-13.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:16:08 -!- quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 11:16:58 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:17:09 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 11:17:10 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:19:04 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:21:31 aintme [n=user@13.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:21:52 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:30 hmm, looks like sb-queue is not available in this version of sbcl (running 1.0.29, from ubuntu) 11:23:56 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp072.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:24:47 it's in since 1.0.30 11:27:29 nicklevine: otoh, I once compiled sbcl but it didn't have threads at all :) 11:27:37 sufficient if I (enable :sb-thread) as described in INSTALL? 11:28:34 *attila_lendvai* was just bit again by the :sb-thread build thigy 11:28:40 Excellent 11:28:45 It's not fun if nobody suffers 11:29:15 mishoo: effectively, that's what I did (without the flet but that's a minor difference) 11:30:08 we need you guys to test all our compilation options, after all 11:30:20 better bury the ones you actually want 11:30:28 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:31:01 :) 11:32:08 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:32:34 Grayfox [n=grayfox@92.124.32.230] has joined #lisp 11:32:37 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:32:52 -!- Grayfox [n=grayfox@92.124.32.230] has quit [Client Quit] 11:34:07 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:34 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 11:38:07 did anyone here take a picture of the whiteboard at the end of Tuesday's sbcl10 session? 11:39:07 Is there a portable Lisp reader that can remember line numbers? 11:39:42 for reporting back to the user where problems exist when writing your own DSL using sexpr read-able input syntax 11:42:52 jsnell did, i think 11:44:11 Phoodus: i don't think so. you can use file-position and count newlines 11:44:33 Phoodus, Pascal Bourguignon has something 11:44:47 COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.READER 11:45:06 a portable CL:READ 11:46:09 I wonder whether the whiteboard is still down there, actually 11:46:19 one thing I don't like with a custom sbcl is that it places .fasl files all over the place 11:46:31 the one shipped by debian puts them in /var/cache/common-lisp-controller, which I like better 11:46:33 *Phoodus* reads up on those 11:46:39 is there a way to do that with a custom build? 11:46:58 debianize the build 11:47:09 mishoo, asdf-binary-locations was created for that. it was merged into asdf, but asdf needs to be updated in sbcl 11:47:19 that is, download the upstream source, apply the debian diff, update debian/changelog 11:47:41 then run dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -rfakeroot -b, and dpkg -i the resulting .deb 11:47:41 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225051032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:48:37 *luis`* hugs asdf-binary-locations 11:49:01 *attila_lendvai* even configured slime to store fasl's there 11:49:15 its own fasl's, that is 11:50:51 well done on avoiding apostrophe crime in "its". Two words later, though... :-) 11:52:29 hm, my hopes were low but the patch actually applies cleanly :) (except for version.lisp-expr, no big deal) 11:52:34 Phoodus: is the DSL compiled? 11:54:01 swank contains a readtable that you can use to get start and end positions of a sexpr 11:55:07 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-118-176-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091109125225]"] 11:55:36 *attila_lendvai* always wondered how to write plurals of abbreviations... reads up 11:56:48 Xof: I have a low quality pic. I think jsnell had a real camera. 11:57:20 attila_lendvai: I'm not really serious :) 11:58:22 Xof, but i am... :) it should be FASLs 11:58:51 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 12:01:11 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:03:37 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:07:39 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:49 http://www.angryflower.com/aposter.html 12:10:17 tcr: No, the DSL is treated as a nested list, and manually broken apart. It's not a macro-based DSL 12:10:28 it's also not through emacs 12:10:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:11:15 Phoodus: swank is in CL. 12:12:13 is swank its own separate project, or is it tightly bound with slime? 12:12:37 I've got the pics, but can't get them out from the iphone right now, since the macbook and iphone aren't acknowledging each other's existence 12:14:46 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-115-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:47 is my own iphone pic. 12:18:21 Phoodus: you can just take the file swank-source-path-parser.lisp 12:18:35 did my bundle summary seem respective of points made in the workshop? 12:19:01 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:20:49 nikodemus: seems so to me... You were the one who had the most to say on that anyway. 12:21:16 re inhibiting transforms when VOPs are applicable... Not sure about that. 12:21:21 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 12:21:55 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:58 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:06 It's a lot more subtyping tests. 12:22:16 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:22:41 froydnj did a thingy for direct-to-vop stuff 12:22:56 ah, it was him 12:24:21 Xof: right, froydnj did the combination-style stuff, which is already in. 12:24:23 pkhuong: being the vocal one makes me usure if i caught the caveats and objections being voiced 12:24:39 swank might very well work; have to get into its guts. Thanks 12:32:10 spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 12:33:03 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:33:29 davazp [n=user@128.Red-88-1-98.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:35 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@83.226.183.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:08 anybody knows what's with the :ready-only argument to usocket:wait-for-input? 12:38:57 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:39:07 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:12 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:41:04 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:44:12 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.57.120] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:28 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:25 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 12:47:26 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:57 YuleAthas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 12:48:39 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229153093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:49:52 Xof &co i think there was consensus to enable threads in linux by default, right? 12:51:01 yes. FBSD also, maybe? 12:51:33 jsnell: ourdoings makes it easy! 12:51:47 (and it's lisp-powered) 12:52:26 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@209.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:52:48 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483ED40.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:20 my votes are yes for linux and no for darwin -- i don't have an opinion on others really 12:55:34 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:13 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-115-206.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:57:47 -!- cmsimon [n=cms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit ["brb."] 12:59:09 Xach: is there a presentation on ourdoings somewhere? 13:00:34 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-115-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:35 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:00 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:58 Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:03:02 nikodemus: i don't think so. the presentation he gave at the boston lisp meeting was geared for non-programmers. 13:03:19 "here's what a lisp list looks like..." and things like that 13:04:05 nikodemus: he has a slick system for signup, so you can send your iphone pictures straight into ourdoings with a new contact 13:04:57 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-215-132.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:11 ok 13:09:46 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:55 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:46 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:13:25 retupmoca` [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-180-224.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:06 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:14:18 you email "begin@ourdoings.com" with a subjet line of "b", and it sends a reply that you add to your contacts. after that you're signed up and anything you send to that contact goes into your ourdoings timeline (or stream or whatever it's called). 13:14:29 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:15:05 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:17:44 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:21:17 *nikodemus* doesn't have an iphone 13:24:12 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has joined #lisp 13:24:46 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:04 -!- davazp [n=user@128.Red-88-1-98.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:28 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:25:41 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-14-69.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:27:20 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:34 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-15-96.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:29:09 hello all 13:29:32 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.234] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:29:47 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-169-202.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Success] 13:32:14 -!- retupmoca` [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-180-224.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:47 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:34:12 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:34:27 *luis`* waves to levente_meszaros 13:35:03 retupmoca` [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-180-224.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:03 nikodemus: i suppose a lesser phone, still capable of email, *could* work. *maybe*. 13:35:12 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:38 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:08 hmm, in 6 minutes my ubuntu will switch to carmic coala 13:36:33 jgracin [n=jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 13:36:38 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:36:57 ahoy luis` 13:40:34 levente_meszaros: here's the book I was telling you about the other day: http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9781401309213/ there's another volume as well. One of them is available on Google Books. 13:40:48 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633909.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:41:52 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 13:42:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-47-13.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:42:25 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:43 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06e8fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:44 hello 13:45:10 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:46:03 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 13:46:38 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:48:36 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:48:50 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:48:57 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:51:15 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@host162.155.212.34.conversent.net] has quit ["leaving"] 13:51:50 holy shit, upgrade aborted at 99% due to some msfontwhatnot 13:52:40 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:52:59 levente_meszaros: I didn't have luck with that upgrade either. Still in Jaunty. 13:57:45 luis, thanks for the link, I should look at it more deeply as soon as I have my coala pet running around 14:01:16 nicklevinehome [n=chatzill@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust14.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:20 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-179-191.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:08:30 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:20 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.72.63] has joined #lisp 14:11:22 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:24 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 14:13:30 I am now fairly experienced at Karmic upgrades; I've done 3 in the last two days (and another couple earlier) 14:13:31 Krystof, memo from froydnj: I don't understand what you mean when you suggest special-casing BASE-CHAR. where? not in S-T-C-S-T, surely 14:14:54 froydnj: I meant in s-t-c-s-t; what you do is something like (if (csubtypep type (specifier-type 'base-char)) `(and (base-char-p ,obj) )) 14:14:58 let's try if I can reboot 14:15:14 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-15-96.vodafone.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:16:00 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:16:01 hm 14:16:12 where base-char-p is cheap because you can implement it as a bitwise operation 14:17:03 I don't think that will work. base-char-p is source-transform'd to (typep x 'base-char) 14:17:34 (= (logand ,obj) (logior character-widetag #xffff1000)) ; on base-char=7bit builds 14:18:02 well, step (1): improve (typep x 'base-char) 14:18:48 erm, that missed a bit. (= (logand ,obj (logior character-widetag #xffff1000)) character-widetag) 14:19:37 where by ,obj I mean (bits-of ,obj) -- (failing to communicate effectively since 1999) 14:20:23 hm 14:20:28 that's still not quite right 14:21:02 *froydnj* watches his laptop upgrade to jaunty 14:21:12 I did one of those yesterday too! 14:21:36 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-15-96.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:21:49 *froydnj* hands Krystof his UCSE certificate 14:23:17 seems like I need to recompile SBCL after upgrading to carmic coala 14:23:20 ok, i'm about to enable threads by default on x86[-64] Linux. last chance to protest! 14:23:40 *guaqua* says yay! 14:23:47 go for it! 14:24:17 -!- spec[away] [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:24:32 going once... 14:25:01 going twice... 14:25:15 *froydnj* modifies c-t-f.l-e to remove :sb-thread 14:25:25 this will make my release script take way more time 14:25:49 why is your release script not in cvs by, by the way? 14:26:19 ...and sold to the american looking gentlement in the back row! 14:27:35 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:49 vng [n=user@123.20.57.120] has joined #lisp 14:30:14 nikodemus, did you finish that map-parts? 14:31:59 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-15-96.vodafone.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:33:10 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:37 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-15-96.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:34:29 minion, logs 14:34:30 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 14:35:43 levente_meszaros: not yet 14:35:49 over the weekend, i hope 14:36:39 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 14:36:53 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:37:04 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:15 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:37:37 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 14:41:49 give me your sbcl10 materials! If you would like a link to something from a lightning talk entry, say so 14:41:53 -!- legumbre__ is now known as legumbre 14:44:01 nothing from sbcl10 online yet? 14:44:18 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229183025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:44:18 poor, tired, huddled pdfs yearning to breathe free 14:47:21 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:48:31 udzinari: plenty, actually 14:50:10 clop2 [n=jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:46 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-14-69.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:47 minion doesn't even know what sbcl10 is 14:51:48 nicklevinehome_ [n=chatzill@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust14.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:49 Ferrari_308_GTS [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-52-175.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:53:53 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-9-69.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:53:58 "1.033.26" 14:54:00 poor nikodemus 14:54:25 eyeye 14:54:28 i suck 14:55:14 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 14:55:47 minion tell me about sbcl10 14:55:47 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:55:50 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 14:55:53 :D 14:56:05 minion: sbcl10 14:56:05 sbcl10: SBCL's 10th Anniversary Workshop, for more information and materials from workshow see http://sbcl10.sbcl.org/ 14:56:14 thats better 14:56:19 wtb automagic version.lisp-expr updating 14:57:57 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.195.90] has joined #lisp 14:58:44 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:58:50 -!- nicklevinehome [n=chatzill@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust14.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:52 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:59:20 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229153093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:54 benny` [n=benny@i577A193D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:38 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:01:41 -!- Ferrari_308_GTS [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-52-175.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:02:56 spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 15:05:37 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.166.163.186] has joined #lisp 15:05:43 Xof, two small bugfixes plz: Atilla is written as Attila, Mézáros is written as Mészáros 15:06:39 oops 15:07:44 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 15:11:43 Xof, could you add http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-rdbms/ and http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-perec/ for persistence 15:13:18 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1A58.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:14:29 minion: memo for 3b: your sb-cga changes are now in merged 15:14:29 Remembered. I'll tell 3b when he/she/it next speaks. 15:15:26 Xof, for partial evaluation you could add http://dwim.hu/project/partial-eval 15:15:43 not yet working but I'll put up stuff there 15:16:31 Xof, er I was wrong it is http://dwim.hu/project/hu.dwim.partial-eval 15:17:25 cl-perec is da bomb 15:17:53 *luis`* learned at SBCL10 that it's pronounced "perets" 15:18:02 dwim.hu appears to be down to me 15:18:03 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:18:26 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 15:18:33 it is 15:18:44 in Russian "perets" is for pepper 15:18:45 udzinari, hard drive failure, working on it 15:18:51 for a few more minutes... said the programmer :) 15:20:24 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:19 stassats`, heh, pepper does not sound bad to me 15:21:33 jgracin [n=jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 15:25:55 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 15:27:47 scream_ [n=scream@off.taxduty.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:33 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:41 how do you exit from slime? 15:28:42 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-82-106.w90-25.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:28:56 (quit) isn't it 15:28:56 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:22 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-15-96.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:28 ,sayonaara in the repl, for example 15:30:07 (or M-x slime-quit-lisp) 15:30:25 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-15-96.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 15:30:31 u 15:30:32 <_3b> nikodemus: cool, do the different args to make-[single|double]-float avoid the compiler problems, or have those been fixed? 15:30:33 _3b, memo from nikodemus: your sb-cga changes are now in merged 15:30:34 aha - good things - thanks nikodemus 15:31:14 ,quit does it too 15:31:36 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31:53 _3b: didn't see the compiler problem at all, so don't know. i used arguments that generate same bit patterns as zero-divided-by-zero just out of paranoia 15:32:31 <_3b> ok, i'll have to try to figure out what problem i was having, and see if it is still a problem at some point 15:32:40 *_3b* thinks it may have been fixed though 15:33:19 (but i would be moderately surprised if the arguments mattered for the compiler) 15:33:51 <_3b> well, possibly if it made a different type of NaN or something 15:34:32 i just tried, and -1 works just as well here 15:34:33 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-31-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:35:00 <_3b> ok, so either it was fixed, or it was dependent on whatever was confusing my floating point settings as well 15:35:07 :) 15:37:48 <_3b> nikodemus:does (defun foo () (sb-kernel:make-double-float -1 0)) compile for you? 15:39:16 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:39:48 <_3b> nikodemus: see https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/486812 15:42:56 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.243] has quit ["off"] 15:42:58 will be different on OS X and Linux 15:44:05 make MAKE-DOUBLE-FLOAT should not be trivially-foldable (via DEFKNOWN) and have a special DEFTRANSFORM instead 15:45:16 billitch [n=billitch@fac34-6-82-240-131-189.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:47 ah, right. i'm on darwin where traps are off by default 15:48:39 hi, has anyone heard of caml interpreter in lisp ? 15:48:42 konr [n=user@201.82.136.87] has joined #lisp 15:50:37 billitch: the first one was implemented in lisp. 15:52:23 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-6-89.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:33 tritchey [n=tritchey@74-95-9-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:54 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.166.163.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:10 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 15:56:35 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-42.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:57:49 xach: thanks, i see now (http://caml.inria.fr/about/history.html) 15:58:32 wouldnt porting the type inference system from ocaml be a good thing ? 16:00:24 i hate caml syntax but the semantics are not so bad 16:00:41 lisp is much more flexible 16:01:28 -!- scream_ [n=scream@off.taxduty.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:29 oh i dont mean to compare them, i prefer much lisp 16:01:33 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.72.63] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:34 and some compilers (such as sbcl) do perform a certain amount of type inference 16:01:51 but the ability to have strong type inference looks like a very good thing to me 16:02:28 billitch: I believe if you go root around in drew mcdermott's web page (www.cs.yale.edu/~dvm) he has a system for doing some type inference in lisp. 16:03:15 rpg: thanks 16:03:53 mvilleneuve: i heard sbcl does but never know how to use it / help it ? 16:04:01 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:04:41 (..but I never know..) 16:04:50 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has joined #lisp 16:05:20 if you say (declare (optimize speed)) in you function, sbcl will try to tell you how 16:05:48 by emitting notes about types that are too loose enable various optimizations 16:05:48 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d90-129-209-54.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:58 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:06:07 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.75.214] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:06:18 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:50 in most cases if you declare types of function arguments and return values that is enough 16:07:08 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has joined #lisp 16:07:14 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-31-192-26.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:08:28 nikodemus: ok so optimization is helped by inference, how about safety ? i'd really like to read about sbcl's type inference but never came across the good doc i guess 16:08:31 nikodemus: I'm not /entirely/ sure that this is the same thing, is it? 16:08:54 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:09:13 I.e., the ML-family type inference does a lot of very complex reasoning in order to provide safety for the benefit of the programmer; it's not /primarily/ concerned with compilation efficiency. 16:09:31 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Handling-of-Types.html#Handling-of-Types 16:09:46 rpg: sure 16:09:47 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:10:13 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:10:29 this was in reference to "i heard sbcl does but never know how to use it / help it ?" 16:11:15 nikodemus: thanks though i had already read it 16:11:40 billitch: what sort of questions do you have after reading it? 16:11:48 Krystof_ [n=csr21@158.223.161.165] has joined #lisp 16:11:49 nikodemus, while you are in the groove, you can find some sbcl patches here: http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl;a=summary 16:12:03 nikodemus: I think Drew's stuff is more about the "support the programmer" style. IIRC, it's used in the context of his NISP dialect. The problem with Drew's code is that it's full of jewels, but they are hard to prise from their settings.... 16:12:08 nikodemus: i dont know, i'd like to know how it works =) 16:12:21 attila_lendvai: my groove for today is about over :) 16:12:37 but i'll leave the page open for later :) 16:13:16 billitch: if "magic" is not a satisfactory answer, you want to dive into the source :) 16:13:51 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:13:56 short answer: standard function have some type restrictions, but they are often so loose that they don't help much 16:13:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:14:27 so we have DERIVE-TYPE optimizers for various function which know how to reason about the result type based on derived arguments 16:15:37 then there is a forward propagation pass that tells the compiler about type of X in both legs of (IF (TYPEP X 'SOMETHING) ... ...) -- it's known to be SOMETHING in first leg and (NOT SOMETHING) in the other 16:15:50 by the way: it is acceptable to retcon small slidesets for lightning talk materials 16:16:03 add some type algebra and shake 16:16:26 *Krystof_* does updates 16:16:34 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:05 *froydnj* is lacking in retconnable slides 16:17:40 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.39.90] has joined #lisp 16:17:51 heh, some thoughts about NIL (not from me) http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/nil.html 16:19:12 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:14 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:21:24 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has joined #lisp 16:21:52 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.57.120] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:22:03 vng [n=user@123.20.57.120] has joined #lisp 16:23:11 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 16:23:50 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.39.90] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:23:56 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.39.90] has joined #lisp 16:24:10 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:09 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:25:23 levente_meszaros: i had a scheme related poem about #f and nil in my old fortune file, but i can't remember it 16:25:38 slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:03 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-49-51.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:04 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-31-192-26.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:29:08 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 16:29:11 at least that would not be a rotten egg ;-) 16:29:38 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:07 http://hober.livejournal.com/29894.html has a copy of it 16:31:37 levente_meszaros: http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~wiseman/humor/large-programs.html 16:31:47 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.57.120] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:31:51 oops, too late 16:32:04 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066165.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 16:35:22 i think i reviewed one of his papers recently 16:36:19 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:39 unless it is a different Ashwin Ram of course 16:37:36 nikodemus, hehe, really funny but still untrue I think 16:38:16 code can always be simplified 16:38:36 but as soon as you loose information in your data, you can't get it back as Drew pointed out 16:38:56 very true 16:41:01 freiksenet [n=freiksen@89.223.120.1] has joined #lisp 16:41:18 nil as both false, the symbol nil, and the empty list still counts as a great pun in my book 16:41:32 freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@89.223.120.1] has joined #lisp 16:41:37 very convenient 16:42:09 if i had to give up one, i'd give up the symbol nil: let # be a special object with its own syntax 16:42:19 and empty list does not have to be nil though does it? 16:42:37 freiksenet2 [n=freiksen@89.223.120.1] has joined #lisp 16:42:45 in common lisp it is always nil 16:42:46 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:43:06 i thought it was implementation dependant 16:43:13 not at all 16:43:18 there's also "the value which is used to denote the absence of any other value" 16:43:21 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:28 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-wegwauymrwytdcfj] has joined #lisp 16:43:31 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 16:44:04 freiksenet3 [n=freiksen@89.223.120.1] has joined #lisp 16:44:06 in case anybody is interested there's an (unfinished) blog post at http://dwim.hu/project/hu.dwim.partial-eval about partial evaluation (what else?) on the adventures tab 16:44:30 any comment is appreciated, although I don't know when will I have time to work on that... 16:44:31 kpreid: that one i don't understand. it is used as such like any other value you know is not a valid value in that context -- if all values are valid, you need a second value to mark the first as provided 16:44:54 using nil there is just a cultural convention, could be equally well pi in most cases 16:44:55 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-jwcrppzoatrgfhxo] has joined #lisp 16:45:32 oh yep there is in the spec () ['nil] 16:46:00 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-115-206.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:23 and in other languages their false makes an equally convenient value for such a purpose -- i don't think that's overloading nil, just using false (whatever the flavor) in a way that makes perfect sense 16:46:36 distinguishing between nil and false leads to other subtle inconveniences. Either way you loose 16:47:43 you can always have a generalized if/cond which works equally well for #f and NIL 16:48:32 ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:49:08 there would be a single IF that expects boolean values and errors out on anything else 16:49:29 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 16:49:46 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:50:02 on top of that with some compiler optimizations you can efficiently have what CL gives 16:50:23 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:26 and still have the option to distinguish #f and NIL 16:50:49 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 16:50:59 i wonder if nil/false pun would be equally important/convenient for me if primary read syntax for parentheses constructed vectors instead of lists. that is, if lisp programs were trees of vectors instead of trees of conses 16:51:41 nikodemus, that is a *very* good question 16:52:16 but at least an empty hashtable is not false... ;-) 16:52:29 long live to Perl 16:52:32 brucio fixed that 16:52:48 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633909.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:29 -!- benny` is now known as benny 16:54:56 levente_meszaros: i don't know. if there was a separate #f and nil i would strongly prefer only strict branching constructs in the language: (if #f a b) => B (if a b) => A -- relegating NIL to the empty list 16:56:09 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.182.185] has joined #lisp 16:57:02 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-115-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:57:10 nikodemus: have you programmed in a language like that? 16:57:20 just curious. :-) 16:57:29 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@89.223.120.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:19 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:27 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.65] has joined #lisp 16:58:53 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-115-206.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:54 nikodemus, hmm I see your point, wouldn't it be weird when you actually *do* want to detect if a non boolean value is used in the condition? it seems like upside down in terms of primitives 16:59:27 but anyway, both case must have been optimized by the compiler, so there are not so many differences as soon as you have different *data* 17:00:04 -!- freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@89.223.120.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:11 prxq, what inconveniences are there which you cannot easily hide by factoring out functions/macros? 17:00:33 -!- freiksenet2 [n=freiksen@89.223.120.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:41 oh no... the sufficiently smart compiler again ;-) 17:01:13 freiksenet [n=freiksen@89.223.120.1] has joined #lisp 17:01:20 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 17:02:22 http://ajaxxx.livejournal.com/62378.html 17:04:23 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:06 milanj [n=milan@93.87.248.137] has joined #lisp 17:05:55 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:58 Krystof_: hah! 17:06:58 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 17:07:00 it seemed relevant 17:08:19 making sbcl signal usage go away would be wonderful 17:09:12 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:09:26 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 17:10:24 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:11:11 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:15 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:17 -!- freiksenet3 [n=freiksen@89.223.120.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:21 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:11:34 kjbrock [n=kevin@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 17:12:12 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:12:36 levente_meszaros: well, the need to hide it is an inconvenience. Imo. I don't think that, either way, it is a particularily important issue. 17:12:37 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 17:13:42 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:28 prxq, well, there are infinite number of things hidden from a *user* that would increase that by 1 ;-) 17:14:48 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:15:21 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:13 right, but then the question is, what's the point? I'd expect a language with that distinction to behave as nikodemus sugested. So (if '() 1 2) ==> 1. 17:17:58 scheme does it that way, right? 17:18:04 no 17:18:14 that expression produces an error in scheme 17:18:44 i see. 17:20:22 Dylan does it that way: if (#()) 1 else 2 end if => 1 17:20:52 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:52 housel: does it cause discomfort, happiness, or is it indifferent? :-) 17:20:57 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 17:21:12 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:21:24 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:57 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 17:22:24 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 17:22:55 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:56 kjbrock_ [n=kevin@93.sub-75-211-223.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:02 indifferent to mild happiness, I guess 17:24:05 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-179-191.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:05 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:25:12 prxq: I think clojure does it the way you suggest. 17:25:27 the problems usually come when you do something meta, reflection, type system, or something data driven 17:25:30 froydnj: mega and I agree on that, re signals. 17:25:44 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 17:25:49 I think the nil/false collapse is benign in CL because of multiple-values. OTOH, I know lots of lispers who just never use multiple values. 17:25:50 most users just don't care and they are right 17:26:34 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:27:02 hehe 550+ line function, i wouldn't believe it unless i seen it 17:27:16 *nikodemus* is in the signal chorus 17:27:44 at least i think i was convinced in the pub :) 17:28:22 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@89.223.120.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:51 so much controversy, and no-one has yet broached the VCS question :-) 17:30:13 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:30:45 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:30:53 git. done. 17:31:07 /msg Krystof_ i'm expecting you to silently do the switch to sourcesafe as we discussed, so no need to broach the issue publicly :) 17:31:20 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 17:31:24 oops 17:31:29 :-) 17:31:33 hahaha :) 17:32:22 VCS is terrible not sure why anyone would want to actually switch to it 17:32:31 vss 17:32:54 the sbcl cabal asserts itself 17:33:36 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has left #lisp 17:33:44 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-15-96.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:37:33 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:42 -!- kjbrock [n=kevin@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:44 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:45 -!- kjbrock_ is now known as kjbrock 17:37:56 davazp [n=user@229.Red-83-55-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:11 nikodemus: tried the fd thing... Works very well, especially given that it's not as subjet to race conditions as condition variables. 17:38:57 I think I'll have to try a CLH lock + poll(2) on an fd instead of busy waiting. 17:40:42 still in the market for some written-up workflows from anyone with experience, btw 17:41:07 Xof: I can ask a friend what the cairo workflow looks like. 17:41:21 Not sure if that qualifies. 17:42:46 not sure either, but would be interesting to read about 17:43:18 their solution to lack of awareness of WIP branches is to centralise all the public repos. 17:43:40 the branches are still conceptually owned, but at least there's only one place to look for them. 17:44:36 -!- davazp [n=user@229.Red-83-55-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:46 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:56 davazp [n=user@191.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:43 is the brucio blog archived somewhere? 17:52:54 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:11 a-s` [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:43 boyscared: maybe the onion has an archive of it 17:53:52 :P 17:54:20 boyscared: i don't think so. archive.org has some. 17:54:32 jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet213-86.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 17:55:59 -!- Krystof_ [n=csr21@158.223.161.165] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:25 -!- kjbrock [n=kevin@93.sub-75-211-223.myvzw.com] has quit [] 17:57:59 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-27-89-62.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:58:01 http://web.archive.org/web/20070712062323/http://brucio.blogspot.com/ for example 17:59:41 -!- lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-197-249.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:00:22 excellent :P 18:01:52 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:03:28 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:34 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-115-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:31 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:06:13 gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:19 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:08:57 he has a lot of good ideas 18:09:15 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:09:31 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:36 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:21 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host53.190-138-164.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:13:37 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@190.137.244.188] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:13:46 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 18:17:52 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:19:23 -!- Madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:24:24 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:24:30 konr` [n=user@201.82.136.87] has joined #lisp 18:25:21 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:21 There's lots of sbcl branches on repo.or.cz already, it seems like a fine way to collect them. 18:27:30 udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:27:42 GCC has links on its website to the "most interesting" branches in development 18:29:04 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:18 -!- foom2 [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:25 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.182.185] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:28 foom2 [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:56 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-251-248.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:21 -!- konr [n=user@201.82.136.87] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:35:07 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:36:02 -!- jewel_ 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[n=hyy@125.109.255.37] has joined #lisp 18:55:57 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:39 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:57:46 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:57:48 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:06 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:58:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:24 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:32 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:31 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066165.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:07:31 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:07:36 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-231-102.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:08:27 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:09:32 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:11:29 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:31 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066165.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 19:11:31 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 19:14:05 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:14:05 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066165.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:14:22 heh: http://code.google.com/p/googleappengine/issues/detail?id=101 19:14:37 (someone asking for Common Lisp on Google App Engine :) ) 19:16:01 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has joined #lisp 19:17:49 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066165.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 19:17:49 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 19:18:19 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:18:19 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066165.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:19:54 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-47-107.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:55 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066165.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 19:20:55 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 19:23:35 ;) 19:23:48 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:23:56 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:24:21 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-42.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:24:54 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-53-57.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:28:44 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-233-170.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:32:15 francogrex [n=user@200.32-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:32:38 this is wrong: (list "dir \\Directory\Subdirectory\") 19:32:59 rjack [n=rjack@net-93-147-28-149.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:33:24 what is the right way, the network dir 's path is \\Directory\Subdirectory\ 19:33:51 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:02 lispm [n=joswig@e177127049.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:04 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-53-57.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:34:08 -!- rjack [n=rjack@net-93-147-28-149.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:35:27 anyone has ideas? 19:35:52 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 19:37:09 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:37:32 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:38:10 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:09 -!- francogrex [n=user@200.32-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:29 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:40:39 \\\\...\\..\\ 19:42:07 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177127049.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:24 stassats`: (swank::asdf-module-files (asdf:find-system :alexandria)) 19:42:49 stassats`: I don't know who the culprit is, sbcl or asdf, but I logged it as https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/498290 19:43:51 ccl gives a similar result 19:44:12 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-179-191.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:44:34 You should add a comment. 19:47:58 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:48:21 I just committed M-x slime-query-replace-system-and-dependencies. :-) 19:48:31 nice 19:48:56 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:57 tcr: in asdf: (defmethod source-file-type ((c static-file) (s module)) nil) 19:50:47 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:49 -!- rsynnott [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has quit [] 19:51:44 stassats`: asdf should probably call parse-namestring on static-files? 19:52:54 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:53:48 stassats`: Are you going to work on slime-save-system today? If you don't do it today, I'll probably give it a shot tomorrow. 19:54:10 no, not today 19:54:22 stassats`: For the case you do: make asdf-system-files take an optional (or key parameter) so it returns also all files of dependencies 19:54:36 I'll need that for slime-rgrep-system-and-dependencies, too 19:55:11 "DEFINITION-SOURCE of generic-function COMPONENT-NAME did not contain meaningful information." is that supposed to be so loud? 19:55:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:56:47 Heh :-) 19:57:12 It says exactly what failed, even though it's probably not interesting to the user 19:57:30 The first part, that is 19:59:09 huangjs`` [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 19:59:28 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:49 -!- huangjs` [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:40 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:51 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:53 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:07 -!- davazp [n=user@191.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:46 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:04:23 -!- konr` [n=user@201.82.136.87] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:27 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:05:40 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-111.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 20:06:40 rjack [n=rjack@net-93-147-28-149.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 20:07:41 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-111.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:08:29 is there any way to treat places as first class objects? 20:08:44 timor: google for locatives. 20:08:48 In a word, sortof. 20:09:30 -!- rjack [n=rjack@net-93-147-28-149.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:38 you can use symbol-macros 20:09:48 it will look like it 20:10:43 stassats`: that doesn't make palces first-class. 20:11:03 merl15 [n=merl@80-121-14-131.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:11:58 the immediate use would be that you can setf on a value, not on an expression 20:12:10 it doesn't, but it will solve the issue with not wanting to type places each time 20:13:12 galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-47-94.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:15:25 freiksenet [n=freiksen@85.249.162.121] has joined #lisp 20:15:44 timor: what does setf[ing] on a value mean? 20:16:13 pkhuong: i need to think how to better rephrase it 20:18:56 pkhuong: setf always gets expanded on the expression immediately contained in the call, becuase its a macro 20:18:56 on values, i could do something like (let ((place (really-complex-place-determination))) (setf place new-value)) 20:19:49 if i want to do that i have to write a macro which expands my really complex place determination and expands into a dozen setf calls depending on the place i want to access 20:19:51 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:20 freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@85.249.162.121] has joined #lisp 20:20:21 which means i have to anticipate every possibility at macro expansion time 20:20:46 whereas with a first-class-place i can have a function determine the place at runtime 20:20:55 what issue do you want to solve with this? 20:21:02 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@85.249.162.121] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:21:05 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:06 -!- udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:42 morphling [n=stefan@HSI-KBW-078-042-117-144.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:24:22 stassats`: i cant remember, its probably more of a theoretical question, and just now reading the locative post made me wonder why lisp doesnt have the concept of pointers 20:24:40 concept is the wrong word 20:24:59 i meant "actual implementation", probably 20:25:30 the whole setf thing is a pretty cool concept of pointers, but its tied to lexical context 20:25:33 why, you can have a pointer easily, be it structures, or cons cells 20:25:37 ok, as Xof I will wish you all a merry Xofmas and and a happy New Year 20:25:40 timor: eh? references are everywhere. Just about everything is a reference. 20:26:09 i know that 20:26:18 -!- maus_ [n=maus@94.231.112.177] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:26:20 i cant make it clear right now 20:26:48 i need to hack away some more and wait till i get to the point where that problem strikes me again 20:26:48 in timor's defence: something like (gethash (aref *foo* i *bar*) table) is a place that is not terribly easy to write as a reference 20:26:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-233-170.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:58 and now I shall depart 20:26:59 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:12 please hack the good hack, send Krystof lots more sbcl10 materials 20:27:15 wow, Xof just read my mind 20:27:16 and see you next year 20:27:18 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:27:25 I'm not noted for my telepathic debugging for nothing 20:27:27 galaxywatcher__ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-47-94.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:27:42 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-111.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:49 -!- galaxywatcher__ is now known as galaxywatcher 20:29:21 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-26-33-218.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:30:15 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:28 i'll put it another way: setf analyzes at expansion time how to access the place, and substitutes the right code(!) to do that. the locative thingy seems to actually store the way of accessing a certain place. you can pass it around like a value, and just decide to setf the place later 20:31:08 -!- galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-47-94.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:32:38 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.252.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:49 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-139-178.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 20:34:29 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 20:35:11 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 20:36:43 which you can do for places that belong the the same "class". you can pass slot names and objects, and later use a (hard-coded) slot-value to get to that place, you can pass around a hash table and the keys, and then use a (also hard-coded) gethash to access the place 20:37:08 locatives generalize that 20:37:25 billitch [n=billitch@fac34-6-82-240-131-189.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:28 pkhuong: why did you say "sort-of" 20:38:49 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066165.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:53 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@60.54.96.53] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:46 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.36] has joined #lisp 20:40:47 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:42:16 because locatives are much more expensive (performance-wise) than one would expect from raw pointers. The upside is that they're also much more powerful. 20:42:28 ok 20:42:32 thx 20:44:22 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:58 gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:59 Guthur pasted "place object, of a sorts" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92326 20:47:25 hehe its a slow night 20:47:43 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has joined #lisp 20:48:56 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai|away|a 20:49:37 merl15_ [n=merl@80-121-36-163.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:51:38 Guthur: that's a lame implementation of locatives :) 20:52:05 rahul to be fair i had no idea what locatives were 20:52:13 sure 20:52:29 it's what I'd expect a first attempt to be :) 20:53:19 roughly it's the right idea, but you can do things to make the syntax a bit more seamless, like providing a setf function for them 20:53:21 its what a 2 minute implementation would be, to tired to do any real dev 20:54:33 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:54 i must check what locatives actually are 20:55:03 http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/fd-loc.xml 20:55:28 -!- skeptomai|away|a is now known as skeptomai|away 20:55:30 http://osdir.com/ml/lisp.sources.code/2004-06/msg00005.html 20:56:44 cheers, 20:58:32 -!- merl15 [n=merl@80-121-14-131.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:58:45 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:08 -!- merl15_ is now known as merl15 20:59:28 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-26-33-218.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:27 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:01:05 now let's talk about weak locatives :-) 21:03:24 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 21:03:39 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 21:04:08 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:58 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:06:57 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:08:51 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai|away|a 21:08:55 -!- aintme [n=user@13.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 21:09:00 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:07 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:11:18 is there a lib that provides weak referencing for lisp 21:11:32 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has quit ["so long.."] 21:11:57 i only heard about this recently, and not too familiar with actual use cases for weak references 21:14:30 gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.109.185] has joined #lisp 21:14:42 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:09 some implementations have weak tables, and some don't 21:17:45 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:18:52 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:19:10 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:18 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:20 -!- freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@85.249.162.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:30 Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has joined #lisp 21:25:47 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 21:26:52 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:24 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:53 -!- drwhat [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:58 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:29 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:44 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:45 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@74-95-9-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:45 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 21:33:36 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 21:34:54 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:35:07 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-115-206.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:35:19 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-28-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:35:39 -!- skeptomai|away|a is now known as skeptomai|away 21:36:05 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-28-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 21:36:41 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:40:51 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:42:03 freiksenet [n=freiksen@85.249.162.121] has joined #lisp 21:44:21 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-28-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:47 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279776657.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 21:48:07 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@85.249.162.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:51 Guthur: I thought trivial-garbage did something like this... 21:49:23 May just paper over interface differences across implementations that have weak tables. 21:51:54 -!- billitch [n=billitch@fac34-6-82-240-131-189.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 21:54:03 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:58:40 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:01:28 *froydnj* tries to find where he groused about iolib before 22:01:52 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:01:55 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:03:44 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:05:20 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:06:22 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-64-39.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:07:04 c|mell [n=cmell@60.54.96.53] has joined #lisp 22:07:54 rpg the test file seems to have weak-pointers, and then weak tables for sbcl corman scl 22:08:44 oh no its something else for those 22:08:54 Guthur: that sounds right. Some languages have weak pointers, and leave weak-tables as an exercise for the reader, etc. 22:09:22 ISTR that the ACL and SBCL variants are different in their details (we wrote our own compat layer that makes SBCL look like ACL). 22:09:29 i'm not quite sure how to read those implementation specific declarations 22:10:19 is it just whats in the next line after #+ 22:11:25 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 22:11:27 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet213-86.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:02 weak pointers have to be provided by the GC implementation 22:13:27 so yeah, there's no libarary to provide them but trivial-garbage has a portability layer 22:13:44 Guthur: it's the next form 22:13:50 clhs #+ 22:13:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 22:14:26 well, the immediately following form is a test describing what should or should not be in *features* and the form after that is the one that's conditionally included or not 22:14:45 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:59 cltl2 tends to have better explanations of syntactic stuff, too 22:16:31 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:16:38 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:27 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai|away|a 22:17:31 -!- skeptomai|away|a is now known as skeptomai|away 22:18:02 ya i should have looked it up, it has popped up enough times 22:18:43 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.39.90] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:19:48 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 22:22:16 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-179-191.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:23:29 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:28:49 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:53 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:31:39 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-131.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:43 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.109.185] has quit [] 22:32:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-jwcrppzoatrgfhxo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:33:16 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:17 good night 22:33:25 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06e8fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["sayoonara"] 22:33:49 *_deepfire* discovers the purely functional Nix package manager and is in love with it just from reading the description 22:33:56 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051001040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:57 jyujin_ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 22:33:58 guaq_ [i=gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:01 Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 22:34:05 Raptelan_ [n=Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has joined #lisp 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whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:35:24 anekos [n=anekos@pl1218.nas924.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:35:28 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 22:35:37 dek51 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has joined #lisp 22:36:22 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:36:43 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-3-160.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:36:55 *p_l* hates the words "left as exercise for the reader with passion" 22:37:16 tvaalen [n=tvaal@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 22:37:26 *dandersen* heartfully agrees. 22:38:39 Hello. For persistent objects, with indexes and all, I am looking at bknr and elephant. Both look like good options. Does anyone have any opinions/recommendations on this? 22:38:59 I loved how an article on trees I once read complained how 95% of textbooks left deletion from a tree as exercise for the reader to figure out 22:41:14 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:44:28 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:46:08 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 22:48:01 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:13 p_l: that quote is placed interestinly 22:51:21 for the reader with passion :P 22:51:49 rahul: I blame snow-induced lags 22:52:06 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.248.78] has joined #lisp 22:57:17 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-wegwauymrwytdcfj] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:58:56 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:00:05 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 23:00:28 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:55 madsy [n=madsy@ti0050a380-1992.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:06:32 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.248.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:32 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 23:11:26 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:41 jleija: i'm using rucksack in my current project with great results. 23:12:54 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.248.78] has joined #lisp 23:13:45 drewc: thanks. i'm checking it 23:15:36 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:14 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.248.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:18 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:18:54 binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has joined #lisp 23:18:57 00:18:18 binrapt, because in Lisp, you cannot used defun to define a thing that behaves exactly like 'if' without using 'if' in it. 23:19:09 Is that true? 23:19:53 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:10 try it. :-) 23:20:15 binrapt: well, you need a conditional primitive at some level, I guess 23:20:23 <_3b> you can't use DEFUN to define IF even if you do use IF in it :p 23:20:30 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:40 IIRC the only single instruction set I had seen to work was based on conditional jump instruction 23:21:29 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-3-160.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:19 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has joined #lisp 23:22:33 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:45 p_l: wikipedia has lots of OISCs. :) 23:22:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OISC 23:23:02 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:23:05 l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 23:26:00 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:04 you could do (funcall (getf (list t (lambda() 'true-clause) nil (lambda () 'false-clause)) (eq cond t))) to simulate if 23:26:06 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zzuchhvhjwgwegpd] has joined #lisp 23:27:21 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has joined #lisp 23:27:23 <_3b> c|mell: don't you mean (eq cond nil), possibly swapping branches, to get proper generalized booleans? 23:27:56 davazp [n=user@191.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:57 binrapt: (defmacro if (test conseq alt) `(cond (,test ,conseq) (t ,alt))) 23:28:02 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:28:24 _3b, yes sorry 23:28:24 p_l: I will attempt to leave those words out of future blog posts :) 23:28:37 rahul, cond tends to expand to if 23:28:50 c|mell: not traditionally 23:28:54 <_3b> you could also use throw/catch if you really want to be convoluted :) 23:29:06 IF was introduced later 23:29:47 good use of tradition, what do you mean by "later"? 23:30:33 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:29 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:21 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has joined #lisp 23:32:55 c|mell: as in added to the language later 23:33:02 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:33:26 Lisp 1.5 had IF, but the original did not. not sure when exactly it was added. 23:34:45 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Special-Forms.html 23:35:38 also, the paper on metacircularity by hbaker 23:36:07 -!- morphling [n=stefan@HSI-KBW-078-042-117-144.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:37:21 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has joined #lisp 23:38:02 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:38:23 it's a bit odd: I have a hard time understanding the perspective that made cond be the primitive and if be the special case on top. 23:38:36 To me, if is quite clearly more primitive. :) 23:38:52 CL agrees with you. 23:39:11 Sure, but how did someone even come to the other conclusion, at that time. 23:39:28 It's not like the people designing these things were /stupid/. 23:39:53 It's just a quite different perspective. 23:39:58 obneq [n=lukas@80-219-169-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:40:16 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.195.90] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 23:40:24 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 23:41:07 foom: they were mathematicians, and mathematicians like to consider the general case, i.e. cond 23:42:21 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has joined #lisp 23:43:02 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:44:32 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-82-106.w90-25.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:44:43 I like the cond as primitive... 23:44:46 sue me :P 23:44:54 -!- nicklevinehome_ [n=chatzill@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust14.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:02 me too 23:45:19 otoh, I started my adventure with *OLD* scheme 23:45:47 (I believe it might have been R3S or maybe earlier) 23:47:21 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has joined #lisp 23:48:02 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:48:47 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:54 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BCEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:21 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has joined #lisp 23:53:02 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:53:11 Hey fe[nl]ix. You missed a great workshop. :) 23:53:17 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:38 I'll try not to miss the next one 23:53:46 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 23:54:02 are you coming to ELS 2010? 23:54:11 yes 23:54:36 planning to submit some paper? 23:55:48 no 23:56:45 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has joined #lisp 23:57:33 -!- avalanche^ [i=Honningm@60.81-166-31.customer.lyse.net] has quit ["I wonder why I quit..."] 23:58:25 ELS2010 is when? 23:58:53 foom: cond is more general, so it makes sense to include it as the single conditional expression 23:59:10 IF is basically an abbreviation for a common case 23:59:23 p_l: May 6-7, 2010