00:03:07 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:27 pabloh [n=Pablo@190.55.142.114] has joined #lisp 00:04:51 can someone recommend me an CL implementation, for learning? 00:05:15 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:42 pabloh: what operating system do you use? 00:05:50 debian or ubuntu 00:06:43 SBCL, but don't use the .deb. 00:07:15 *Xach* was thinking about setting up an alternative repo with clc not included 00:07:24 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.117.137] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:07:34 whats' clc? 00:07:41 another impl? 00:07:42 pabloh: i really like sbcl with emacs and slime 00:07:47 ... Okay, I'm clearly not thinking straight. I just tried to play an mp3 file with xpdf. 00:07:59 pabloh: clc is some lisp meta-management software 00:08:05 ok 00:10:25 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:39 -!- Elench is now known as Deus 00:12:47 -!- Deus is now known as Deus-Imperator 00:14:36 redblue [i=star@ppp040.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:15:02 pabloh: don't touch clc. Just download binary package from sbcl.org then install clbuild 00:15:19 pabloh: have a howto: http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ 00:15:57 p_l, ok thx, why slcl is "better" than other impls? 00:16:09 s/slcl/sbcl/ 00:17:18 pabloh: I don't know if "better", however it's quite feature complete with regards to standards, well supported on Linux and generates fast native code 00:17:47 you could say that it's newbie friendly ;-) 00:18:15 (compared to debugging ECL errors, for example, or dealing with whatever is broken in clisp swank support) 00:19:35 another thing is that most libraries that you will find (especially current ones) will be tested on SBCL unless they are platform-specific 00:21:20 p_l, ok, thx a lot 00:22:20 think its time to get the sbcl packages removed from ubuntu / debian 00:22:20 :) 00:24:34 Dawgmatix: shrug, they work for me. 00:25:27 even if they don't work for you to use as a primary lisp, they *at least* work for compiling your own local copy. 00:25:28 I just can't figure out how people have problems with clc... 00:26:30 rahul: you're curiously unhelpful when people come here with clc problems but curiously combative when people who try to help complain about it. 00:26:33 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:27:30 In retrospect, the last time I tangled with clc looks like it might have been fixable by enabling some startup script on boot. 00:27:38 At the same time, WTF? 00:28:24 c|mell [n=cmell@81-66-226-79.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 00:28:26 I think that must've been an old version; the current one (which is really old by now) doesn't use a daemon. 00:28:27 *_3b* mostly advises against it since nobody supports it here 00:29:16 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #lisp 00:31:56 -!- davazp` [n=user@138.Red-83-52-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:32 Xach: I haven't been asked for help with any clc problems... just people complaining that they think it's a bad thing to have lisp software distributed with linux distros 00:35:53 I just wish it would not recompile separately for every user 00:36:10 having every user separately compile their own impl and libraries doesn't help that, of course 00:36:24 foom: that would be against security policy 00:36:41 rahul: not if it happened on the builders, surely? 00:36:46 <_3b> rahul: it would be less of a problem if it didn't interfere with local installs 00:36:52 rahul: It's not a bad thing to have lisp software distributed with linux distros, it's just that we've yet to see a distro that didn't screw it up somehow. 00:37:29 It is thus far easier for us to provide support if people avoid the vendor packages. 00:37:39 <_3b> (or if it had recent enough versions to not need to suggest that, or if we knew how to debug local updates to clc stuff) 00:38:01 And WTF is up with this report that ubuntu installs some .11 SBCL version from mid-month instead of an actual release? 00:38:17 foom: then we'd need to prod the buildbot into rebuilding for every upgrade to the implementations 00:38:25 rahul: yep 00:38:33 _3b: how does it interfere? 00:38:34 rahul: I think that's doable within debian these days? 00:38:40 foom: maybe 00:39:01 rahul: /me is not an expert on debian packaging, I just wish it /could/ be like that. 00:39:05 <_3b> rahul: it installs systemwide hooks that force loading the clc slime, even after you ininstall it 00:39:06 nyef: ubuntu is a bunch of idiotsw 00:39:33 nyef: I'm pretty sure every sbcl I've deployed locally has been the latest at the time I got around to it...which is usually a mid-month version. 00:39:37 _3b: uninstall what? it forces loading of something that isn't installed? 00:39:43 <_3b> rahul: right 00:39:52 nyef: it's not like they're actually more broken than the end-of-the-month versions. :) 00:39:56 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-121-33.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:40:06 <_3b> rahul: it thinks the hook is a user config file or whatever, so leaves it there unless you purge 00:40:09 _3b: ok, that's a specific bug that it should check to see if there is a user-local version of slime. 00:40:29 foom: Sometimes they are. 00:40:30 _3b: oh, I see 00:41:02 nyef: sure. but in this case... 00:41:30 <_3b> rahul: working with local versions while it was still installed would be nice too, in case i need to talk to a remote swank of a specific version 00:41:30 sbcl (1:1.0.29.11-1) unstable; urgency=low 00:41:30 * Go to 1.0.29.11 on advice of sbcl-devel. 00:41:30 _3b: well, that's a tough call to make, as it is a config file 00:41:30 rahul: Please stay around all the time so you can help with clc problems. 00:41:35 foom: Okay... I guess. 00:41:44 _3b: sure 00:42:03 <_3b> rahul: right, not saying it is easy for a distro to get right, just that we don't support it :) 00:42:05 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:08 _3b: but eliminating the entire user base is not a way to make something get more refined 00:42:18 <_3b> people willing to ask debian for support are welcome to stay with it :) 00:42:20 wait, doesn't CLC use the version you have in ~/.sbcl/systems in preference to the system copy? 00:42:30 foom: yes 00:42:43 foom: or at least, there's some location 00:42:58 I think I've had that work before. :) 00:43:01 clc-(un)register-user-package puts a symlink in the right location 00:43:08 err. 00:43:27 IMO CLC has failed if I ever have to call a function with CLC in the name. 00:44:18 ...but I think in this case it works without, unless I mis-recollect 00:44:22 rahul: Okay, since you're ragging on ubuntu so badly... I'm planning on going out tomorrow morning to buy a new hard drive, and tomorrow afternoon I expect to reinstall my linux box. What distro would you recommend I use, keeping in mind that I will continue my current policy of managing my lisp software myself. 00:44:25 ? 00:45:19 nyef: debian 00:45:29 debian = ubuntu + QA 00:45:42 well, technically, ubuntu = debian - QA 00:46:05 Personally, I'd use debian. Despite it not having Python 2.6 yet, over a year after release... 00:46:37 nyef: are you new to linux? 00:46:41 if yes, ubuntu 00:46:43 if no, debian 00:46:45 -!- whoppix_ is now known as whoppix 00:46:45 it's that simple. 00:47:02 (well, unless you feel like being adventurous and running arch) 00:47:04 I've been using linux off-and-on since kernel 0.99pl45. 00:47:05 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:47:38 Ralith: debian is often easier for newbies, since it works more often 00:47:39 But I'm at a point in my life where I need my system to just bloody work. 00:47:47 debian has fortunately moved from a.out 00:47:48 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:48:14 <_3b> i always end up getting annoyed with the age of packages when i use debian :( 00:48:24 rahul: anything that doesn't install X by defaultor even offer it in the installeris going to be a bit of a shock to a newbie. 00:48:55 newbies are more likely to want the oooh shiny features in ubuntu. 00:49:01 foom: I dunno whose debian you're using, but mine has python 2.6 00:49:05 nyef: debian sounds like a good choice, then; I would never use ubuntu unless I needed a full system up ASAP. 00:49:18 running a mixed system works great .. `testing' has been more stable for me than any ubuntu ever was, _3b 00:49:27 Ralith: debian doesn't offer X in the installer? that's news to me 00:49:39 _3b: 2 weeks is too old? 00:49:45 ...then adding in some `unstable' for the non-critical stuff; and you have newer software 00:49:49 Ralith: Yeah, that's the other constraint. I actually need the system to be tolerably working by the following morning. 00:49:49 rahul: I wasn't being very clear; I mean an installer that runs in X. 00:50:01 <_3b> rahul: does that '2 weeks' include the 'QA' you don't get in ubuntu? 00:50:03 rahul: I'm using the one from debian.org, with stable, testing, and unstable in my packages list, what about you? :) 00:50:03 Ralith: supposedly the installer can run in X 00:50:22 _3b: no, that's if there are no serious bugs 00:50:32 _3b: otherwise, you can still ask for the buggy version 00:50:40 foom: same here 00:50:49 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:51:06 nyef: how late a night can you have? ^^ 00:51:06 rahul: supposedly? :P 00:51:06 rahul: you know what I mean, anyway. 00:51:06 if it doesn't look shiny and GUIfical it will put a real newbie off. 00:51:07 and if you drop them to shell on first boot you're going to get an "OH GOD WHAT DO I DO" situation 00:51:17 foom: oh, those are virtual packages... odd 00:51:44 Ralith: so they do a default install and get X 00:51:56 rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:57 rahul: see also: big long flamewar on debian-devel a couple days ago. :P 00:52:04 Ralith: I used the expert install, which doesn't run in X 00:52:06 "Has Debian abandoned Python?" 00:52:32 foom: shrug, I have no need for python 2.6, so I haven't looked 00:52:33 rahul: does that default install include autostarting ?dm on first boot? 00:52:33 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:52:35 and the installer' 00:52:38 Ralith: yes 00:52:39 Ralith: yes 00:52:43 oh, sweet 00:52:51 the installer's still pretty intimidating, though. 00:52:56 Ralith: has been like this for years 00:53:00 Ralith: not really 00:53:10 Ralith: the installer hardly asks much more than the essentials these days 00:53:24 Ralith: "desktop" install has had xdm since 2004, probably 00:53:25 rahul: okay. I haven't used debian for ages, and when I do I always use netinstall, so my view isn't the clearest. 00:53:40 Ralith: netinstall is the same as any other install 00:53:41 it doesn't ask you for your monitor's refresh rates since a long time ago, for example. :) 00:53:45 <_3b> does it at least have a timezone selector that doesn't expect you to know some city thousands of miles away is in the same timezone? :) 00:54:07 rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:07 _3b: it asks you to choose from the standard linux time zones 00:54:15 rahul: I don't recall ever being given the option to get a pretty GUIfical installer. 00:54:22 _3b: so, no. 00:54:24 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:54:41 Ralith: that's not on the netinst cd 00:54:42 <_3b> Ralith: ? 00:54:43 Ralith: I've avoided anything that might put me into that situation, so I don't know 00:54:54 foom: which was my point. 00:54:58 well, "netinst CD" and 00:55:04 "netinstall" are orthogonal concepts 00:55:06 _3b: was rewording rahul's response to your question. 00:55:11 you can net install from any installer 00:55:12 rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:13 rahul: well, substitute the former in y statement. 00:55:16 my* 00:55:24 <_3b> Ralith: sounded more like 'yes' to me 00:55:29 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:55:45 _3b: which time zone has such an issue? 00:55:57 <_3b> rahul: US central 00:56:14 _3b: the standard linux timezones have every conceivable city listed? 00:56:39 <_3b> Ralith: it has the actual /name of the timezone/ instead of some random city 00:56:44 oh, right 00:56:46 that does help. 00:57:05 it's pretty neat to be able to just, say, click where you are on a map, though. 00:57:07 <_3b> how should i know i should click on chicago or whatever it is, when i'm in central tx? 00:57:12 anyways, debian is good: I use it exactly because it *doesn't* change every 6 months, yet up-to-date packages can easily be installed when needed. But I don't want a fully buggy (i mean up-tp-date) desktop; if you do, you might be better with ubuntu. 00:57:22 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.209.209] has joined #lisp 00:57:27 <_3b> closest actual selectable thing was in mn or something, in wrong timezone 00:57:32 <_3b> *nm 00:57:48 *foom* is out. 00:57:49 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.209.209] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:58:04 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.209.209] has joined #lisp 00:58:07 <_3b> yeah, enough off topic for me too :) 00:58:21 _3b: so choose the central time zone :P 00:58:36 <_3b> rahul: right, if it gives me that option :) 00:58:42 <_3b> which it didn't 00:58:54 11) Central Time 00:59:12 sounds like a personal problem to me :) 00:59:16 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:59:20 <_3b> rahul: yeah, like i said, that would be fine... unlike the ubuntu installer 00:59:34 oh, ubuntu tries to be all cutesy-graphical 00:59:55 sounds like fun. 00:59:56 -!- ruediger 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145 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:21 numberGrey [n=michael@173-15-9-117-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:38 anyone here attempt to run sbcl scripts in linux? anytime I attempt to it launches the sbcl interpreter rather than execute the code after. Anyone have ideas? 02:51:26 There are several options. 02:51:40 From just dumping a core with a custom toplevel to wrapper scripts to... 02:52:08 minion: cl-launch 02:52:08 cl-launch: cl-launch is a unix utility to make your Lisp software easily invokable from the shell command-line. http://www.cliki.net/cl-launch 02:52:18 I believe that current SBCL FASLs (from compile-file) are concatenable and start with a shebang line. 02:52:33 Or there's the egregious hack I used in http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/crtc-lcd-test.lisp . 02:54:09 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-38-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:14 checking out cl-launch now 02:55:01 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:09 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:28 yeah, chmod +x foo.fasl 03:01:23 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.204.113] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:01:23 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:06:14 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:27 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.209.209] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:23:35 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:25:05 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:26:43 For a graphics library...if i was interested in doing 2d-graphics, but not really GUI apps. I mean, just visualization of sorts - what framework would one recommend? 03:26:51 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:08 depends on the level of abstraction you're looking for. 03:27:21 There are bindings around cairo, or cl-vector for a pure CL solution. 03:27:36 You can also get a straight bitmap via Xach's libraries. 03:27:53 Well, the main thing I want to try doing is a visualization of path-solving algorithms. That's kinda my goal at the moment. 03:28:37 TDT: So, piping stuff into dot or neato would work? 03:29:06 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:54 I woudln't mind seeing it in real time, more animation - but maybe at first just doing graphiz could work. 03:31:01 I'll check each of those libraries, thanks pkhuong 03:35:08 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:46 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:37:32 Hmm...the cl-vector sounds like an interesting library. Kinda looks similar to what graphiz would do. 03:38:18 not really. It doesn't do any layout. 03:38:21 not really 03:41:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:30 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBABB4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:45:17 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:47:05 nipra [n=nipra@123.238.241.4] has joined #lisp 03:47:53 Yeah, the more I'm reading about this, the more manual it really sounds. not so much of a bad thing if I want full control, but still. 03:49:15 Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has joined #lisp 03:49:36 -!- GmanZorz [n=GmanZorz@r75-110-111-152.rmntcmtc01.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:49:46 Hello everyone! :) 03:49:50 GmanZorz [n=GmanZorz@r75-110-111-152.rmntcmtc01.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:57 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:53:19 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 03:53:34 I have a list of file lines, having one or more consecutive empty lines. I need it to have just one empty line per text block. Is there a Lisp way of doing that? 03:54:01 read lines and check for emptiness. 03:54:39 k, thanks :) 03:56:02 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:15 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-126-42.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:44 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:11:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:11:47 Pete_R: omitting the end-of-list cases, you could (defun parse-non-empty (l) (cons l (if (empty? (car l)) (parse-empty (cdr l)) (parse-non-empty (cdr l))))) (defun parse-empty (l) (if (empty? (car l)) (parse-empty (cdr l)) (parse-non-empty l))) 04:12:29 mutual recursion for fun and profit 04:13:19 pfft. LOOP. 04:13:34 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:13:37 ^^ 04:13:49 -!- chops [n=nope@dyn-138.greentreefrog.net.au] has left #lisp 04:15:03 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.174.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:14 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:15 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 04:17:21 I thought of looping through the list and ignoring multiple empty lines 04:18:03 pkhuong pasted "LOOPy fun" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91749 04:18:03 but I don't know if I can increase the value of outermost loop indexer in an inner loop 04:18:18 Pete_R: index? with lists? Don't. 04:19:38 why? 04:20:27 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xcqaydznkkyzmyzi] has joined #lisp 04:22:31 <_3b> ahaas: is mochi still the way to go for flash game ads? 04:23:19 Good morning! 04:27:41 je [n=jean@129.210.153.20] has joined #lisp 04:28:38 -!- je [n=jean@129.210.153.20] has left #lisp 04:29:12 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:37 redblue [i=star@ppp213.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:34:34 Pete_R: Because accessing an element of a list by its index takes linear time. 04:35:27 oh, completeley forgot about that :) 04:36:29 I must admit I'm having trouble understanding the paste of pkhuong :| 04:37:44 Pete_R: empty-line-p is a boolean that indicates that the previous line was empty. 04:37:47 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:38:52 Pete_R: So the new line is collected only if it is not the case that both the previous line and the new line are empty. 04:40:37 -!- GmanZorz [n=GmanZorz@r75-110-111-152.rmntcmtc01.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 04:40:37 beach: yes, but I'm getting the output exactly as the input. And I don't see the problem :| 04:41:20 I mean I don't see how can I fix it 04:41:20 <_3b> are your 'empty' lines actually empty? (no extra spaces/newlines/linefeeds/tabs/whatever) 04:41:25 GmanZorz [n=GmanZorz@r75-110-111-152.rmntcmtc01.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:04 Pete_R: What _3b said. How do you test for empty lines? 04:42:37 (zerop (length string)) 04:43:37 Pete_R: And did you check that this is in fact the case when your lines are "empty"? 04:45:03 yes 04:45:17 Pete_R: Than I can't see how his loop would fail. 04:45:44 well, the (zerop (length string)) returns T 04:45:55 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:46:31 <_3b> Pete_R: what does you actual code look like? 04:47:00 _3b: the empty line test? 04:47:07 <_3b> your version of the loop 04:47:31 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:48:53 instead of for line = (read-line *standard-input nil) i've put for line in list, where list is a function parameter 04:49:13 I know this is the problem, but I don't see it :| 04:49:44 <_3b> well, we won't either if we can't see the whole code :/ 04:49:46 mm.. there's a bug with lazy evaluation. 04:49:49 <_3b> (and possibly some input) 04:50:33 Oh, right, the loop doesn't work. 04:50:36 demmeln1 [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-046-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:59 <_3b> ah, maybe we will then :p 04:52:10 (and (shiftf empty-line-p (empty-p line)) empty-line-p) (: 04:52:57 Pete_R annotated #91749 "my LOOPy fun" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91749#1 04:55:03 <_3b> you probably don't need the 'while line' bit if you are taking input from a list 04:56:50 Pete_R: that unless form will always evaluate false, non? 04:57:29 drewc: yup, forgot to take and's laziness into account. Hence the shiftf thingy above. 04:57:48 ahhh, i see. 04:57:55 *drewc* didna scroll 04:58:29 I've changed it to shiftf and the list still has blocks with more than one empty lines 05:00:32 Paste a small test case. 05:01:26 Pete_R annotated #91749 "Test case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91749#2 05:03:59 that's not a test case. 05:05:01 pkhuong: why? should i paste the print of the list? 05:05:03 <_3b> Pete_R: might also paste your new code as well 05:05:24 pkhuong annotated #91749 "Laziness and side-effects don't work well together" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91749#3 05:05:40 Pete_R: I don't see any list in your "test case". 05:06:59 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-037-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:08:35 Pete_R annotated #91749 "Latest code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91749#4 05:09:06 <_3b> Pete_R: note the order of the AND in the version with shiftf 05:10:42 *_3b* would probably break the state/emptiness out into loop variables though, seems like the code would be a bit easier to understand 05:11:22 _3b: I'm not sure about for/while/for. 05:11:42 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.241] has joined #lisp 05:11:50 <_3b> pkhuong: he doesn't need the WHILE though 05:12:04 *p_l* tests cl-smoke 05:12:53 <_3b> if it were needed, working around that limitation might make it less of an improvement 05:13:29 I works (happy)! Thanks a lot guys!!! 05:15:06 -!- msingh [n=msingh@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:15:16 -!- numberGrey [n=michael@173-15-9-117-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:01 OK, so the font-selector demo crashes because when the family changes, it tries to initialize the selected face to the previous one, but when there is no face in the new family with the old name, then it is set to NIL. 05:16:10 numberGrey [n=michael@173-15-9-117-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:13 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #lisp 05:18:28 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 05:18:39 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:53 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 05:19:02 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-126-42.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:21:46 -!- numberGrey [n=michael@173-15-9-117-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 05:26:28 hmm... seems that cl-smoke compiled nicely 05:28:53 Is there for SBCL 1/ a portable GUI (at least for unices)? 2/ an SVG library? 05:29:02 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:50 Axioplase_: what would an SVG library do? 05:30:59 Xach: parse it SVG to some reprensation I can handle easly (à la SXML?), produce SVG, and, why not, output to PS/PDF too. 05:31:38 haven't heard of anything like that 05:31:56 Axioplase_: there are non-svg vector graphics libs, though. 05:32:06 The font-selector demo no longer crashes, but still doesn't work properly. 05:32:30 Axioplase_: cxml should handle the xml part. 05:33:22 Axioplase_: For the GUI, you might want to try McCLIM. 05:33:41 Ralith: Due to the pervasiveness of svg, I thought it'd be the best candidate for not having to write a converter to ps/pdf myself. 05:34:17 Axioplase_: With McCLIM, you can output PostScript. 05:34:19 <_3b> Axioplase_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/78719 does a bit of svg parsing 05:35:36 beach: That looks great 05:36:22 Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:37:42 Axioplase_: amusingly, McCLIM is also a portable GUI, albeit a currently rather ugly one, 05:37:45 . 05:38:09 <_3b> there is also cl-svg for producing svg, haven't tried that thuogh 05:38:19 wol [n=wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 05:38:54 Ok, so I got the tools. Now, I *just* have to write the program. Piece of cake. ^^ 05:39:32 -!- demmeln1 [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-046-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 05:39:46 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 05:39:56 Axioplase_: what are you making? 05:40:25 trying to make an Opti Character Recognition system for Malayalam 05:41:58 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:00 sadiquea1: That should be fun. But it is a hard problem. 05:42:10 Xach: After wanted to commit suicide several times due to overuse of both latex/beamer and openoffice impress, I have decided that it is high times I do a decent presentation software. 05:43:06 Axioplase_: sounds like fun; you may want to look into past implementations. 05:43:15 you're not the first, iirc 05:43:26 anyone know why moptilities wants only version 0.55 of closer-mop and not the current version? 05:43:29 minion: memo for prxq: Yes, the might. If you have anything to suggest, email me. But hurry up, it is going to be too late very soon. 05:43:29 Remembered. I'll tell prxq when he/she/it next speaks. 05:44:44 Ralith: I may not. I had found one in C (or was it C++), but I do think it is ridiculous to use such languages for an app like that. Software is already hard enough for us not to have to care about about stupid memory management bugs. 05:45:13 Axioplase_: I've got a stupid memory management bug in one of my CL projects and I have no idea how to hunt it down >_> 05:46:03 Axioplase_: I fully agree with that statement. 05:46:08 Axioplase_: where does SVG come in? 05:46:09 dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has joined #lisp 05:46:34 @beach i have once done it in Matlab 05:46:44 Xach: storage format, I imagine. 05:47:03 SVG seems like a reasonable way to store most presentations I've put together, if it can include bitmaps. 05:47:11 i guess it will still be tough :) 05:47:20 Xach: I thought the presentation could be a list of SVG files (one per slide). 05:47:23 as reasonable as any XML-based format anyway >_> 05:48:00 sadiquea1: I have an idea for an OCR system that would work for any script without prior knowledge of fonts etc., but it is in a very preliminary state. Also, it assumes a different use case from what most existing systems do. 05:48:21 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-C2F2E195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 05:48:53 sadiquea1: Most existing systems seem to assume you want to feed it a page or two, get some output with 90% correct characters, and that's it. 05:49:04 beach: cool! I did the OCR for Malayalam as part of my graduate course. i want to recreate it in lisp so that in the process, i will learn lisp 05:49:18 And since there are some renderers, it means that I don't have to do it myself. And you may even modify things further using any other SVG editor (to import some polygon shapes or whatever) 05:49:23 sadiquea1: Sounds like a good plan. 05:49:50 beach: i forgot to mention that i am a novice in lisp 05:50:04 sadiquea1: The use case I am aiming for is when there is lots of pages (a book), and the operator has time to interact with the system for a few hours. 05:50:10 beach: and what is your system designed to do? 05:50:44 beach: looks like a lot of effort to me 05:50:54 sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has joined #lisp 05:51:02 what's the CL equivalent of append-map? 05:51:41 sadiquea1: It is not a system yet. Just an experiment. The user selects areas that contain "characters", and indicates different characters of different sizes and fonts. The system then finds similar ones, and translates the page into sequences of those symbols. 05:52:03 sohum: what is append-map? 05:52:13 is the numerical value of an enum defined in C++ (compiled by GCC?) 05:52:16 oh, I suppose it's (append (map 05:52:19 (CFFI problem :/) 05:52:25 *mapcar 05:52:43 clhs mapcan 05:52:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 05:52:54 sadiquea1: A lot of effort, yes, but there are situations where that is appropriate. 05:53:45 beach: yeah, sure. btw, which library are you using to get hold of images ? 05:53:45 <_3b> Axioplase_: i don't think the code i linked is very complete, so you might need to do some work if you want to support arbitrary svg 05:53:52 sadiquea1: Plus, OCR systems have a high error rate. An error rate of 10% means 200 errors per page of a book. Sometimes that is not acceptable. 05:54:15 beach: aah, thanks 05:54:16 sadiquea1: I don't understand the question. 05:55:01 beach: true. i have not yet take into consideration cases where a whole book will be processed by the system. interesting to see how my system would behave. 05:55:26 beach: i meant how do you access data from image files 05:55:48 sadiquea1: I use read-image-file from McCLIM. 05:56:08 _3b: I'm currently playing a bit with it, thanks. 05:56:09 beach: is it compatible with CLISP ? 05:56:30 sadiquea1: I would assume so. Is there a reason you are using CLISP? 05:57:02 <_3b> Axioplase_: i think i have a version of that with some more features poorly hacked in, but it doesn't work with normal vecto anymore 05:57:44 beach: not in particular. to be honest, it was the first lisp distro i came across, 05:57:46 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 05:58:32 sadiquea1: Most people here use SBCL, so if you need to ask implementation-specific questions here, you are probably better off with it. 05:59:54 beach: point taken, thank you :) 06:01:50 -!- dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:23 ... erm... is it possible to enter LDB and still have a working lisp? 06:04:53 dysinger_ [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:05:22 sadiquea1: clisp isn't really a distribution, it is an implementation. That might clear things up wrt to the implementation differences :) 06:07:19 -!- wol [n=wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:41 is there a chunks function? 06:08:09 like (chunks 3 '(a b c d e f g h)) = '((a b c) (d e f) (g h)) 06:08:33 no 06:12:05 can anybody suggest a library to read data from images, for use with CLISP ? 06:12:49 madnificent: point taken :) 06:12:53 <_3b> sadiquea1: you could try skippy, cljl, cl-png depending on what sort of images 06:13:06 <_3b> sadiquea1: maybe cl-devil 06:14:13 _3b: tank you. 06:15:12 <_3b> also png-read, ch-image 06:16:25 <_3b> Axioplase_: looks like there is also cl-rsvg, which FFIs to some C lib and claims to be able to output pdf and ps 06:17:01 dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has joined #lisp 06:18:17 *sohum* writes his own then 06:18:22 thanks stassats 06:18:40 -!- dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:18:43 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-76-229.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:19:01 dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has joined #lisp 06:21:21 -!- dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:38 dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has joined #lisp 06:21:39 _3b: thanks 06:21:44 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:21:47 -!- dysinger_ is now known as dysinger 06:21:58 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:22:50 -!- dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:23:16 dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has joined #lisp 06:23:31 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 06:25:14 hm, I can't (setf (last ...)) 06:25:24 what do we normally do when we need to do that? 06:25:49 use a real data structure 06:26:18 -!- dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:27:47 alternatively, how do you mapcar but doing something different to the last thingy? 06:28:44 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:28:55 maplist! 06:28:56 <_3b> (loop for (a . next) on list when next collect (something) else collect (something different)) 06:29:07 beach pasted "chunks" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91754 06:29:27 or that 06:29:31 fwiw, you can setf (car/cdr (last ... 06:30:43 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 06:31:19 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["Asta-la byebye"] 06:32:30 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:32:48 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 06:33:59 sohum annotated #91754 "chunks alternate" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91754#1 06:34:14 dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has joined #lisp 06:34:50 sohum: That is a quadratic algorithm. 06:35:24 oh, it's order O(ln) whereas yours is order O(l) 06:35:25 right 06:35:38 wait 06:35:46 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:35:52 sohum: Well, mine is O(1) only if there is a bound on the chunk size. 06:37:09 sohum: I meant O(l) (length of the list) 06:37:12 because I have to keep checking (length inlist) 06:37:13 right 06:37:44 nthcdr solves that 06:39:54 sohum annotated #91754 "chunks alternate nonquadratic" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91754#2 06:42:01 -!- dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:47:05 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:18 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 06:50:28 is there an nthcdr-like for sequences? 06:50:44 subseq 06:50:44 subseq? 06:51:11 aah, right 06:51:14 no 06:51:27 (subseq "abc" 5) throws an error 06:51:28 displaced arrays? 06:51:56 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:51:56 Well, I guess that would -- you could wrap it in something to produce an empty sequence if out of bounds, I guess. 06:52:10 mm, k. 06:52:38 if you want to use this for checking its length, then just use length 06:53:16 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:53:21 it's hard to make algorithms for both vectors and lists which would be efficient 06:53:23 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:20 I want to check if the lenght is greater than a bounded number in O(bounded number) 06:55:48 length on vectors is usually O(1) 06:56:16 yea, but it should work on all sequences 06:56:45 and you want a pony also? 06:56:59 if I could :P 06:57:22 maybe you want a hash? it's reasonable in a lot of places, if you don't need order. 06:57:43 I'm generalising chunks to sequences is all 06:57:46 är double hash gives you order if you don't care about size. Choose which end of the pony you want us to chop off. :-) 06:57:50 -!- bfein_ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:57:54 (typecase sequences (vector (> (length sequences) n)) (list (nthcdr sequences n))) 06:57:58 Just write a function called at-least-length 06:58:07 s/typecase/etypecase/ 06:58:18 or contains-index, or ... 06:58:25 sohum annotated #91754 "generalising chunks to sequences in a slightly ugly way" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91754#3 06:59:00 *sohum* looks up etypecase 06:59:36 handling all errors is not a good idea 06:59:44 Having generic conses would be nice, sometimes. 06:59:59 yea, but it was that or make it sbcl specific 07:00:01 Then you could make a cons view upon a sequence, and use nthcdr naturally. 07:00:11 handling any errors when you can not to is bad idea 07:00:37 the condition's SB-KERNEL:BOUNDING-INDICES-BAD-ERROR 07:00:41 CL has the problem of having extensive libraries that are not extensible. 07:00:56 ,clhs subseq 07:01:12 clhs subseq 07:01:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 07:01:14 http://l1sp.org/cl/subseq 07:01:23 clhs array-in-bounds-p 07:01:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ar_in_.htm 07:07:42 -!- sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has left #lisp 07:09:01 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 07:09:07 sohum annotated #91754 "generalising chunks to sequences in a less ugly way" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91754#4 07:09:23 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:09:40 -!- sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has left #lisp 07:09:49 according to http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss332_w.htm, the current behaviour of subseq is implementation defined and shouldn't be relied upon anyway 07:10:14 and why did you use typecase list t? 07:10:25 instead of etypecase list vector 07:10:44 because there may be other possible sequences in the future 07:11:11 oh yeah? 07:11:13 and having the default that's known to work for sequences even if it may not be the most efficient is better 07:11:37 *default be something that's 07:11:47 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 07:12:12 and check that it works on maclisp also then 07:12:13 it's just generalisation 07:13:07 *sohum* welcomes patches for maclisp :P 07:13:46 -!- Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["gone but not forgotten"] 07:15:19 prxq [n=mommer@e181182133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:15:24 just write sequence-in-bounds-p and you'll need to change it only once for that future nonsense 07:15:44 yea, I probably should 07:16:06 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit ["so long.."] 07:18:19 stassats: there are other possible sequences in the present 07:19:33 right, it's not an exhaustive partition 07:20:41 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:22:33 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:25:57 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 07:26:45 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:08 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["Asta-la byebye"] 07:32:21 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 07:36:38 good morning 07:39:22 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:40:31 ASau [n=user@host105-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:42:14 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp213.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:43:37 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 07:44:18 -!- sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has left #lisp 07:44:34 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 07:51:19 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.241] has quit [Client Quit] 07:59:10 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:04 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:02:24 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:03:23 angerman_ [n=angerman@host169.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:05:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:31 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 08:09:27 -!- Deus-Imperator [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:09:41 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:53 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:53 -!- angerman_ is now known as angerman 08:11:25 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229242066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:42 -!- GmanZorz [n=GmanZorz@r75-110-111-152.rmntcmtc01.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:00 gz [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 08:18:08 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-132-142.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:21:39 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:01 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 08:22:35 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:22:46 Good morning! 08:23:56 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:27:13 I think we need a test for list boxes. 08:31:00 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7547c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:08 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:31:59 hello spiaggia 08:32:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:32:19 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@81-66-226-79.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed 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has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:22:26 -!- teur [n=golovnev@212.98.161.178] has left #lisp 09:22:50 howdy 09:23:40 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06fbd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:43 good morning 09:32:02 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:32:34 spoofy [n=spoofy@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 09:33:44 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 09:34:05 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:36:41 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:39:01 Younder [n=jthing@88.159.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:42:10 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 09:42:27 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:36 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:51:21 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:55:23 good morning serichsen 09:55:34 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-99-19.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:19 -!- sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:57:27 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 09:57:28 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.228] has joined #lisp 10:01:26 jmbr [n=jmbr@137.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:01:33 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-72.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:02:00 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:03:35 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-229-201.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:05:40 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@137.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 10:06:43 -!- quek [n=read_eva@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has left #lisp 10:08:26 snearch [n=olaf@g225052076.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:08:45 myst` [n=myst@s1.les.gurtam.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:48 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:08:56 Why again is (subtypep '(simple-array base-char) '(simple-array character)) NIL? 10:09:43 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 10:11:28 -!- myst` [n=myst@s1.les.gurtam.net] has left #lisp 10:12:02 Oh think I see 10:12:42 -!- plutonas` [n=plutonas@port-92-195-76-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:13:17 tcr: why should it be. (subtypep base-char character) => T, but not a array of them, that s a instance not a type 10:13:41 It's not because (not (type= (upgraded-array-element-type 'base-char) (upgraded-array-element-type 'character))) 10:14:05 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:14:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:23:57 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 10:23:57 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:24:13 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 10:24:37 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:25:55 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has left #lisp 10:31:05 dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has joined #lisp 10:34:03 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:39:22 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 10:39:47 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:40:57 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host169.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 10:41:40 msingh [n=msingh@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:43:20 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-138-216.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:31 *sigh* 10:45:17 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #lisp 10:45:48 -!- dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:47:11 are there google summer of code projects in Lisp? 10:47:45 can't you look it up? 10:49:41 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:50:19 jmbr [n=jmbr@16.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:55:26 madnificent: In the past, LispNYC was able to obtain the status of mentoring organization, but that didn't work last time. Perhaps they will try again this year. Otherwise, you have to count on someone else doing that. 10:58:49 stassats`: I hoped not all projects were listed, as I couldn't find any 10:59:00 spiaggia: thanks! I'll search for it :) 11:01:20 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 11:01:31 angerman [n=angerman@e115.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:20 madnificent, I think verazzano started as a GSOC project mentored by Kenny Tilton 11:03:26 -!- pjb [n=t@53.Red-88-30-122.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:43 Adlai: who is verazzano? Can I contact either of them? 11:04:56 minion, who is verazzano? 11:04:56 me 11:05:05 minion, tell madnificent about verazzano 11:05:06 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``verazzano''. 11:05:11 minion, tell madnificent about verazanno 11:05:11 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``verazanno''. 11:05:14 hmm 11:05:33 minion, tell madnificent about fetter 11:05:34 madnificent: please see fetter: The end of the page was reached before a definition was found in http://www.cliki.net/fetter 11:06:12 minion: verrazano? 11:06:12 verrazano: You said Verrazano? Well sorry, the actual name is fetter. http://www.cliki.net/verrazano 11:10:36 thanks, I 'll try to contact Rayiner Hashem and Kenny Tilton somehow :) 11:10:49 unfortunatly abandonware.. 11:11:38 Younder: :( are the people still alive? 11:12:54 madnificent, oh, yes.. As far as I can tell. 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[n=maus@78.31.79.39] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 Intensity [i=[AQytNdW@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 dalkvist_ [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@130.34.188.206] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 nareshov [n=nareshov@unaffiliated/nareshov] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 rlonstein [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 liron` [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 Bucciarati [n=buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 anekos [n=anekos@pl1218.nas924.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:20:11 I can't seem to find any contact informatition on Kenny Tilton 11:20:36 s/informatition/information/ 11:20:54 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:21:55 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:16 hi, any idea where to get the source of minion? 11:23:02 ok, i found it. http://www.cliki.net/minion 11:23:31 there is a lot about him online, but things like facebook don't seem like a good way to contact someone for GSoC 11:26:37 Well his comp.lang.lisp return address is from gmail so it probaly ignored. 11:26:57 -!- Intensity [i=[AQytNdW@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:01 madnificent: try contacting someone at lispnyc.org ? 11:31:37 madnificent, tiltontecknologies seems dead, I thing he took other work, so things are a bit in flux I think 11:33:30 Hmm I'd like to improve the slime debugger as a GSoc 11:34:40 and you'll be mentoring yourself? 11:36:18 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:16 :-) 11:44:06 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:44:10 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:47:13 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[n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:33 Bucciarati [n=buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:33 anekos [n=anekos@pl1218.nas924.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:17:46 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:00 CL-USER> (labels ((foo () 12:18:00 (format nil "~a" what))) 12:18:00 (let ((what 1)) 12:18:00 (foo))) 12:18:20 why it is error for undefinition variable 'what' 12:19:31 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:19:39 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:19:39 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 12:19:39 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:19:39 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:39 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-28-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:19:39 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:39 benny 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[n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:01 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 12:22:01 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:22:01 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:22:01 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:45 but the function foo called in let defined the variable what 12:25:15 in the other word?? how can i use the what in foo?? 12:25:58 you can pass that value as a parameter 12:26:26 or you can do (let ((what 1)) (labels ...)) 12:27:06 thanks, 12:28:02 other one, how the macro expansion in lambda?? 12:29:31 angel_: can you elaborate please? 12:30:09 angel pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91762 12:31:24 angel_: not really about your question, but why do you SETF SYMBOL-FUNCTION? 12:31:34 angel_: there is DEFUN for that 12:32:13 -!- jp_larocque [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 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[i=Honningm@60.81-166-31.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 Aisling [i=ash@24.89.251.92] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 Beeggor [n=Draggor@216.80.120.145] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 tvaalen [n=tvaal@209.9.227.203] has joined #lisp 12:33:37 i think the macro has been expand in lambda with variable var = 1 12:34:20 -!- aintme [n=Miranda@48.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 12:34:28 angel_: in your lambda the x is the lambda parameter. 12:35:19 yes, 12:35:21 angel_: you might want to either use (x) or use MACROLET 12:35:25 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:35:54 when i change var to something, but the result of (foo) isn't change 12:36:14 angel_: of course it does not change because you don't use your macro in your lambda 12:36:44 angel_: try (foo (x)) 12:37:11 angel_: umm, i mean (foo (macro-foo 42)) 12:37:37 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:59 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:39:46 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:01 a moment 12:40:28 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:41:50 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:42:08 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:42:18 angel pasted "lamdba macro expand" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91763 12:42:57 angel_: btw, you can annotate your previous paste instead of creating a new one 12:43:36 sorry 12:44:07 how the macro-foo expand in lambda expression 12:44:07 angel_: why do you want to use a macro? 12:44:25 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441518.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:44:39 i think macro 'macro-foo expand in lamdba expression 12:45:05 angel_: macros are expanded at macro-expansion-time. which usually is once, at compile-time. 12:45:18 cause when change var , the result (fn-foo) isnt changed 12:45:47 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:45:50 angel_: so, when the compiler compiles your lambda, it expands the macro, and then compiles the expanded expression. that expression does not change later, even if you redefine your macro. 12:45:53 why the result of (fn-foo) isn't changed when change var 12:46:14 -!- nunb [n=nundan@94.160.187.87] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:47:36 if the compiler expanded the expression after expand the macro, but the x don't bound to anything 12:48:47 angel_: try (macroexpand '(macro-foo x)) 12:49:03 angel_: this is what compiler does before compiling your lambda. 12:49:23 angel_: and as you can see the "var" is not mentioned anywhere 12:50:12 you might want to remove the comma from the "var" in your macro definition, like this: `(+ ,x var) 12:50:22 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-132-142.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:52:46 i get it, thanks alot 12:53:38 overdrive [n=user@81.202.74.13.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:38 demmeln [n=Adium@92.75.46.245] has joined #lisp 12:58:46 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:59:22 -!- angel_ [n=angel@221.217.207.101] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:01:43 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Killed by tomaw (lag)] 13:02:22 are instances of STANDARD-CLASS externlizable? 13:03:35 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 13:08:35 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:27 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:50 It pretty much seems so across implementations I have tried; I wonder where it's in the standard 13:10:22 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:11:31 G'morning all. 13:12:19 "externlizable"? .. do you mean whether it is possible to subclass it? .. i don't think the CL standard talks about it, but AMOP does 13:12:43 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:27 -!- overdrive [n=user@81.202.74.13.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:13:28 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441518.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 13:14:04 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:14:14 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 13:14:23 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:15:25 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:58 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:23 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.26] has joined #lisp 13:16:54 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 13:17:07 lnostdal: "externalizable" typically means "can be put into a fasl file" (that is, can be used as a literal constant in code processed by the file compiler) or "has print-read consistency". 13:17:39 ah, ok .. heh :) 13:19:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:19:18 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:45 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:21 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.243] has joined #lisp 13:30:58 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:34:13 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.52] has joined #lisp 13:35:49 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225052076.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:36:02 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 13:37:01 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 13:40:44 -!- angerman [n=angerman@129.187.209.4] has quit [] 13:43:34 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:25 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:49:24 rudi [n=rudi@84-119-75-76.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:50:27 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.243] has left #lisp 13:50:29 tcr: see 3.2.4 (and 3.2.4.2.2) 13:53:10 piso: yeah but where's standard-class there? 13:53:23 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:55:00 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 13:55:03 -!- sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:55:08 a standard-class is an instance of standard-object 13:55:30 look at the very bottom of 3.2.4.2.2 13:55:32 If a standard-class is -not- a standard-object, it's clearly covered under the "not in this list" clause at the top. 13:55:42 moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-186-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:52 If it -is- a standard-object, it's covered by the standard-object clause at the bottom. 13:55:54 Yeah I'm looking whether make-load-form is specified to have a method for standard-class and I cannot find it 13:56:33 Well, do standard-classes have to be externalizable for standard method specializers to be compilable? 13:56:36 I was more looking for a comment that for-clos-specific reasons an implementation pretty much is required to have a make-load-form for classes 13:56:42 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.243] has joined #lisp 13:57:16 I'm not sure that's required 13:57:17 yeah, nyef, something along that line 13:57:48 Well, a method parameter can be specialized on a literal class object... 13:57:49 piso: It may not be required formally but because of implementation-issues 13:58:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:40 nyef: classes are also valid as type specifiers 13:59:06 Yeah, and classes have a -mutable- name, and mutable lookup interface in find-class. 13:59:30 so externalizability seems pretty much implied, I was looking for a some explicit note 14:00:48 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-90-233.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 14:01:00 nyef: are you on the sbcl10 list? 14:01:03 But the actual limits of externalizability are unspecified. 14:01:09 sbt [n=sbt@62.70.2.252] has joined #lisp 14:01:17 tcr: No, not in the sbcl10 list. 14:01:21 s/in/on/ 14:01:22 clhs make-load-form 14:01:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm 14:01:40 how does one specify a function parameter in CLOS? 14:01:56 sbt: Specify in what sense? 14:02:02 tcr: make-load-form is specified to have a method specialized on class 14:02:13 nyef: http://lists.b9.com/pipermail/sbcl10-participants/2009-December/000015.html 14:02:22 nyef: I want to write a method that takes a function as a parameter 14:02:32 tcr: Ah. Neat. 14:02:47 piso: But is its behaviour specified? (am I dense?) 14:02:50 yes 14:02:51 sbt: So... Method parameters are specified in the lambda list, a function is first-class... 14:03:04 tcr: Yeah, make-load-form is decently specified. 14:03:05 see just above the examples in clhs make-load-form 14:03:07 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 14:03:10 piso: ah there! 14:03:14 Geralt [n=Geralt@vpn-cl-162-106.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:16 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:17 nyef: could you give me an example of how you would write that? 14:03:47 (defmethod foo (bar) ...) (foo #'baz) 14:04:01 That's for defining the method and calling it. 14:04:03 so basically you can externalize a class by #.(find-class ) 14:04:29 nyef: no sure I understand. how does the dispatch know that bar is a function? 14:04:29 piso: yeah you've seen the mail I sent to you? 14:04:37 I've even replied to it :) 14:04:42 sbt: It doesn't? But that's not what you asked about. 14:04:52 (defmethod foo ((bar function)) ...) 14:05:17 nyef: ok now I see. but can CLOS distinguish between different types of functions? 14:05:32 piso: ok, it usually takes some time until a mail propagates to my local box 14:05:56 About the only distinction that can be made is between a function, a funcallable-instance, a generic-function, or a subclass of funcallable-instance. 14:06:08 You can't dispatch directly on a functions type signature. 14:06:24 nyef: ok, thanks! 14:06:29 Oh, you might be able to pick out macro-functions as well. 14:06:34 piso: I'd really appreciate it if you made the repository available, so I can upgrade by a few commands 14:06:57 tcr: yeah, it's on my list to do that 14:07:06 nyef: can you not do a deftype on a function and then dispatch on that type 14:07:21 Guthur: No, because dispatch is defined in terms of classes, not types. 14:07:38 k 14:07:49 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:08:01 hm not even after type expansion? 14:08:22 (deftype my-integer () 'integer) 14:09:32 tcr: Unlikely. The specializers really are defined in terms of class names. 14:09:49 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:09:51 hello 14:10:28 Heh. About halfway down the todo files is the suggestion of putting PCL into the cold load. 14:10:52 yeah :-) 14:11:55 nyef: it says in the spec on classes and identities 14:12:10 what is identities, its not linked to anything so it is hard to know 14:12:21 Identities is EQLity. 14:12:27 Hence, EQL specializers. 14:12:37 nyef: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/gwydion/hackers/clisp-hackers/ram/work/notes.txt 14:12:41 that seems to be the full version 14:12:48 Umm... It shouldn't be too hard to prep an initial core image with genesis but not postpare it or dump it, then hook up the compiler to dump components to the unfinalized cold-core instead of to core or fasl. 14:13:05 nyef: ok cheers 14:14:46 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 14:15:57 "Of course, we will have to go to deep binding when we support threads." 14:17:08 When did SBCL go to deep binding? 14:17:30 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:18:32 the source of "original" cmucl seems much cleaner :-) 14:18:54 Cleaner in what sense? 14:19:37 general appearance, no comments telling about kludges etc 14:19:42 Ah. 14:19:44 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:59 less organically grown, essentially 14:20:12 nyef: would it be possible to portably define type specializers? 14:20:38 Every so often, I take a look through part of the system to see if I can figure out how to eliminate some KLUDGEs or FIXMEs... Usually, though, they're too well-embedded or the cost of removing them would be worse. 14:21:07 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633626.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 14:21:25 p_l: I... don't know. It'd probably be -slower- than the class-specialization we have now, though. 14:21:51 For the simple reason that you can test for a type-tag, pull the class pointer if it's an instance, and look that up in a table. 14:21:55 -!- confounds [n=Ident@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 14:22:09 But with full type specializers you end up with arbitrary things like satisfies types. 14:22:24 nyef: I thought about adding such cleanup issues to launchpad; rationale is that people browsing code can add comments about related code sections, like I did at https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/383077 14:22:26 And arbitrary integer ranges and stuff like that. 14:22:56 nyef: couldn't satisfies etc. be done through filter functions? And yes, I understand it would e probably slower, but well :D 14:23:37 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.245.136] has joined #lisp 14:24:05 The next issue is that I mostly don't do CLOS. I mostly don't use it, and PCL is frightening. 14:27:25 http://productiveblog.tumblr.com/ <---- hahahahaha 14:29:18 p_l: Heh. Worth a laugh, but not quite helpful. 14:30:38 I'm afraid I just use classes as redefinable structs 14:31:30 Don't be afraid. 14:32:08 *Xach* likes lazy-loading slots 14:32:28 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:43 yeah, well. I read essays on advanced CLOSing and I get the concepts, but when I'm trying to solve a problem, those concepts never actually seem to fit anything. 14:32:44 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@92.75.46.245] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:32:55 maybe I'm just old and ossified :D 14:33:02 http://www.starling-software.com/employment/programmer-competency-matrix.html <--- this is however usable 14:34:44 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-28-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:35:35 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:30 jfm3 [n=user@216.156.98.230.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:48 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-76-221.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:39:10 i think i should make it a goal to get to n2 by the end of next year 14:39:39 angerman [n=angerman@e229.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:39:51 Guthur: Across the board, or in specific areas? 14:40:22 good point there is a lot of areas 14:40:36 I just got to "Database", and my self-evaluation is that I'm spread over n^2 to log(n) depending on sub-area. 14:40:44 (Sub-area of database, that is.) 14:41:32 Honestly, "proficient in use of ORM tools"? Probably not. "proficient in use of stored procedures"? Definately not. Understands how indexes are stored internally? Oh, yeah! 14:42:10 nyef: Stored procedures help so much in some circumstances. 14:42:22 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:35 TDT: Sure, but I so rarely need to deal with databases on that level that it Just Doesn't Matter to me. 14:42:47 nyef: Yeah, I can understand that. 14:42:56 heh, I'm all over this chart. 14:43:05 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 14:43:08 Their scale doesn't make any sense. I'm fairly close to their lg n systems level, but don't really know anything about actually taking to the OS. 14:43:08 some areas higher than others. Gives a good overview though. 14:43:38 similarly, I'm productive enough with git, but couldn't branch from CVS/SVN for my life. 14:43:46 demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-84-203-217.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:58 -!- jfm3 [n=user@216.156.98.230.ptr.us.xo.net] has left #lisp 14:44:29 yeah, that row (VCSs) is really flawed 14:44:40 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:43 Or, I've never used an IDE to build a project. 14:45:12 really? 14:45:36 or the framework row... NIH considered a proof of competency? 14:46:06 spoofy_ [n=spoofy@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 14:46:15 I thought that using IDEs is almost unavoidable nowadays, since so many places dictate the tools you should use to work on a project or take a course 14:46:26 pkhuong: I think it's not about NIH, but about being able to write and *publish* those tools (there's a mention of publishing your tools) 14:46:29 *Adlai* had to use Eclipse in a course he took on Java once 14:46:54 Adlai: emacs is strongly suggested. 14:47:10 -!- spoofy_ [n=spoofy@78.31.74.25] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:19 davazp [n=user@2.Red-79-154-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:32 pkhuong, I use emacs -now-, but back then... 14:47:35 *Adlai* shudders 14:47:53 back then I enjoyed "discovering" new excel features 14:48:59 And the knowledge being cumulative thing is a clearly broken assumtion. 14:49:50 "for e.g." (: Books is similarly broken; I haven't read any book in the < lg n column. 14:49:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:49:58 Adlai: I think it depends on what one gets into...I've been lucky enough to work in places where they don't care what I use, as long as it's free. So emacs has been my choice for the last 5 years. 14:50:12 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:31 The last job I quit was because they tried to dictate the hardware/software I could use, heh. 14:51:14 TDT: hardware as well? what did they dictate? 14:51:37 the guys at my job -all- use Microsoft Visual C++ 14:51:41 Adlai: when I TAed the second programming course, I also helped people with emacs. I suppose I could have received help from monnier in prog I. And, in research, I only use C and C++ defensively, to avoid questions on whether using them would improve my runtimes. 14:51:42 but at least I'm their git guru 14:51:50 I've got a dummies book on my shelf, I have code complete, I have four of the books at level 2, and three of the books at level 3. 14:52:12 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 14:52:16 p_l: Wanted me to use windows, and eclipse for PHP programming. I used the windows part, but not the eclipse, sshed into the server and built emacs locally. 14:52:42 heh, I love how SICP is at the log(n) level while some people here would place it at a new n! level 14:52:45 p_l: They put everyone on AD and gave a very limited repository of tools to choose from - which getting anything added to was a real pain. 14:54:03 TDT: then they broke various rules about tools availability... 14:54:03 also, metaprogramming is nowhere on the language knowledge row 14:54:14 TDT: I'd leave the job as well 14:54:21 that matrix is questionable 14:54:37 some good points, many strange choices, many glaring omissions 14:54:52 for example, he seems obsessed with DBs 14:55:10 Just some bias from his domain and experience with coworkers. 14:55:39 There isn't any [useful] "framework" in my day job. 14:56:22 p_l: Yeah, it's less about the money and more about the freedom and work area for myself. 15:02:21 demmeln1 [n=Adium@ip-109-85-25-45.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:03 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:04:22 -!- rudi [n=rudi@84-119-75-76.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 15:04:39 "Divide compiler files into subdirectories: front, back and runtime"? 15:05:13 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 15:06:47 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:44 HG` [n=HG@xdslef240.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:08:08 longkid [n=longkid@113.22.162.27] has joined #lisp 15:09:39 hello 15:10:03 hello longkid 15:10:15 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:26 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslef240.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:10:28 beach: hello 15:10:35 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:16 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:50 p0wer [n=dimitar@firewallix.jacobs-university.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:55 -!- p0wer [n=dimitar@firewallix.jacobs-university.de] has left #lisp 15:13:39 sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:16:40 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91.115.25.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:07 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:19:20 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 15:23:29 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-84-203-217.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:59 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:24:16 -!- demmeln1 [n=Adium@ip-109-85-25-45.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:51 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 15:24:52 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 15:28:35 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.151.7] has joined #lisp 15:29:30 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 15:36:18 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 15:40:44 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:41:58 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:42:08 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:04 hugod_ [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:43:05 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Success] 15:43:05 -!- longkid [n=longkid@113.22.162.27] has left #lisp 15:43:19 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 15:43:32 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:44 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:44:01 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:44:34 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:49:24 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:01 -!- sbt [n=sbt@62.70.2.252] has quit [] 15:55:12 <^boris> im reading cpl but was curious about something i see in other code, what does 'varname represent? 15:55:20 <^boris> if *varname* is typical for global 15:56:13 ^boris: 'foo is shorthand for (QUOTE FOO), which, when evaluated, results in FOO. 15:56:20 clhs quote 15:56:21 clhs quote 15:56:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm 15:56:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm 15:56:28 clhs ' 15:56:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dc.htm 15:56:40 <^boris> ah ok thanks 15:56:51 -!- ASau [n=user@host105-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:59:33 Yay for -complete- change of plans. 16:06:39 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:34 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:11 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:25 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:33 any CFFI expert around? what's the asdf extension cffi-grovel:wrapper-file used for? 16:12:53 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:05 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@16.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:23 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:16:46 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:55 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:13 Axius [n=ade@92.85.219.205] has joined #lisp 16:22:26 Fare: iolib has an example 16:22:43 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:22:53 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 16:23:00 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:30 ok, grepping... 16:24:01 Fare: cffi-grovel takes a "wrapper file" consisting of a bunch of lisp forms, generates a .c file, compiles it, loads the shared library, produces the respective cffi bindings, and.. that's pretty much it. 16:24:28 and how the application finds the .so is up to it? 16:24:28 it's for getting at macros, mostly. 16:24:32 Fare: Is the boston-lisp-meeting after the one on Monday going to be in late January? 16:24:40 nyef: yes 16:24:55 Okay, thanks. 16:24:58 luis: is there an option to make it a static .o for e.g. ECL ? 16:25:15 Fare: I'm afraid not. 16:25:38 *Fare* is trying to integrate cffi-grovel into xcvb 16:25:47 *Fare* is also thinking about porting xcvb to ECL 16:25:55 two non-trivial tasks 16:27:26 *Fare* also needs to do surgery on xcvb to allow for content-hash-based caching of object files 16:27:38 -!- nipra [n=nipra@123.238.241.4] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:28:24 nipra [n=nipra@123.238.241.4] has joined #lisp 16:28:26 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.151.7] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:57 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:46 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.151.7] has joined #lisp 16:29:57 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:31:34 tori [n=ade@92.82.73.255] has joined #lisp 16:31:40 does anyone use the cc-flags mixin? 16:31:49 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:35:53 Fare: I don't remember what that is. 16:36:14 DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:16 something to prepend per-file flags to the cc -O blah command 16:36:51 I grep in vain in my repo of CL code, but I didn't download everything in clbuild 16:37:08 (is there a flag to download everything in clbuild? could be useful) 16:37:12 *Fare* greps 16:37:21 clbuild --long-help 16:37:38 Fare: I think ./clbuild update --main-projects 16:37:51 err, what Adlai said 16:38:20 (has anyone used that? how big is the result?) 16:38:23 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-199-10.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:38:23 --all-projects = --main-projects plus --wnpp-projects plus --my-projects 16:38:30 --main-projects alone isn't that much 16:39:19 c|mell [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:47 357M source/ 16:39:57 source also includes fasls 16:40:04 after clbuild clean 16:40:48 rudi [n=rudi@84-119-75-76.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:41:24 oh 16:41:27 wait, what 16:41:30 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e229.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 16:41:42 bah, CL has too many libraries. 16:41:48 indeed 16:41:50 it also includes all the rcs metadata. 16:42:24 ah, yes 16:42:33 I think that's a pretty manageable size considering that, as pkhuong says, for most of the projects this includes _full_ history. 16:42:39 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:43:44 My thinking is also that nobody would really need --all-projects anyway, except for the guy whose job it is to run 'record-dependencies' occasionally... 16:44:42 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:45:52 looks reasonable to me. Just wanted to know if it would fit the space in this old laptop. 16:46:26 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.219.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:36 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:55 milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.178] has joined #lisp 16:48:12 -!- davazp [n=user@2.Red-79-154-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:08 TR2N` [i=email@89-180-159-159.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 16:55:22 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:55:22 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:55:22 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:55:22 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.26] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:55:22 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit 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CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:55:29 Hmm, anyone know whether Allegro's stepper is integrated with SLIME? 16:55:56 -!- tori [n=ade@92.82.73.255] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:56:41 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 16:57:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:49 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:59 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:58:13 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 16:58:50 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 16:59:28 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:47 huangjs` [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 17:00:11 guaqua [n=che@212.226.140.97] has joined #lisp 17:00:11 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:32 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:01:35 mcspiff` [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 17:02:19 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:02:23 metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:48 acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:41 ragnul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:44 _8david [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:03:49 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:51 sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@c-24-118-53-243.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:54 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:03:55 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 17:03:57 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 17:04:02 smithzv_ [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:08 btw, does anyone run sbcl on MIPS these days? 17:04:21 guaqua_ [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 17:04:28 ...or alpha? 17:04:34 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=526967 17:04:34 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=545847 17:04:53 -!- guaqua [n=che@212.226.140.97] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:04:53 -!- rudi [n=rudi@84-119-75-76.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:04:53 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:04:53 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:04:53 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:04:53 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-186-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:04:53 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 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[n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:06:16 luis: I don't think it is 17:06:49 luis: I till have some unapplied patches from when I worked for my previous employer which uses allegro, too. 17:06:54 (not that these patches contain stepping support) 17:07:29 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7547c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.26] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 TR2N [i=email@89-180-159-159.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 17:07:32 the most useful patch is one which sorts away all the crap usually shown in frame details 17:09:00 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:09:32 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:44 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:09:50 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-25-244.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:10:21 Is there a way to clone a generic function? I.e. I want a new generic function object which has the same methods, but which I can add new methods to indendently from the original gf 17:10:43 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:11:35 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-159-159.net.novis.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:12:26 Is that doable by ensure-gf new gf + introspection on the original gf (like getting all methods, and adding them to the new gf)? 17:12:28 angerman [n=angerman@host169.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:47 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:12:48 Wombatzu` [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:52 tcr, not via ANSI CL, but c2mop should do the trick. 17:13:15 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:31 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:13:31 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net 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[n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:13:31 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:13:31 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:13:31 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:13:43 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-9-244.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:13:48 yeah sure, I'd like to receive comments on best practise etc 17:14:09 actually, you might be able to get them using compute-applicable-methods 17:14:43 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-186-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:14:43 -!- rudi [n=rudi@84-119-75-76.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:14:43 -!- ramus` 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[n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 17:15:26 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:15:28 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:29 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-147-238.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 17:15:39 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-147-238.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:47 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:16:31 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 17:17:03 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:17:18 <_8david> wouldn't you need 1. the original source code of the method and 2. a portable MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA to send that source code through? 17:17:26 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.151.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:57 you can create new methods with the same method-function 17:18:30 How will that deal with recursive calls? 17:18:39 or calls to call-next-method? 17:18:44 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7547c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.26] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 17:18:56 it'll work fine with calls to call-next-method, and very badly with explicit recursive calls 17:19:08 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:13 but then, so will copying the source 17:19:24 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:36 I think best practice might be "why would you want to do this?" 17:21:45 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:22:45 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7547c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.26] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:45 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:23:59 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7547c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:04 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Offline until tomorrow evening, give or take."] 17:24:46 tcr: what "frame details"? 17:24:56 ah, in the backtrace? 17:25:18 Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:09 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:11 Well I asked mostly out of curiosity; I envisioned some datastructure which contains "function pointers" (say like pprint-dispatch-table), and the contained actually are generic functions; if you wanted to copy such a datum, I asked myself if it was possible to adequately copy the gfs as well 17:26:24 luis: yup toggling frame details in sldb 17:26:54 tcr: the extra swank frames are pretty annoying too 17:26:55 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 17:27:07 right I have a patch for that too 17:27:23 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-61-82-250-90-205.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:54 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 17:27:56 akamaus [n=maus@89.251.162.138] has joined #lisp 17:28:07 if you don't have time maybe you'd share your patches somewhere and i'll look through them? 17:28:27 Well the problem is that the frame-detail-sorting breaks other backends I supposed 17:28:35 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 17:28:42 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:45 because, although frames are numbered, the slime side does not correctly deal with the numbering or some such 17:28:47 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.26] has joined #lisp 17:28:47 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:28:50 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-118-176-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:04 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:07 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:29:07 stassats`: do you have acl? 17:29:20 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.133.163] has joined #lisp 17:29:23 personal edition 17:29:28 rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 17:29:30 I just remember that I was asked to be a beta tester for their upcoming release 17:29:49 but the deadline for feedback was dec,6th ... oops 17:29:55 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 17:30:10 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.250.254] has joined #lisp 17:30:17 stassats`: I'll send them to you 17:31:10 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:31:23 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:50 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.250.254] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:33:00 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:33:56 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:34:04 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 17:35:22 tcr: send them my way too. I have the enterprise edition at work. 17:35:43 -!- rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:43 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:43 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-61-82-250-90-205.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:43 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:43 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-186-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:43 -!- rudi [n=rudi@84-119-75-76.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:43 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:43 -!- msingh [n=msingh@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:43 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:43 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:43 -!- frontier1 [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:44 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:44 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:44 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:44 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:44 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e181182133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:44 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [barjavel.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:36:19 they're just random commits, not meaningfully grouped etc 17:36:45 rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-61-82-250-90-205.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 rudi [n=rudi@84-119-75-76.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-186-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 msingh [n=msingh@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 prxq [n=mommer@e181182133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 frontier1 [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:38:50 luis: Have you seen resurrected hyperdoc? 17:39:15 luis: At the moment, it comes with a preregistered entry for cffi, but that should really move into cffi itself 17:39:31 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-35-82-250-222-66.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:37 Jareeta [n=ahailes@LINERVA.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:39:41 Looking at it. 17:39:43 luis: (http://common-lisp.net/project/hyperdoc/) 17:40:37 stassats`: thread-description was removed, right? 17:40:47 because I actually made good use of it in allegro 17:41:42 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:05 tcr: cool, I'll put it into CFFI 17:42:18 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:21 tcr: is there a convenient way to point hyperdoc at local mirrors? 17:42:39 tcr: right 17:43:34 luis: No, not at all. Shouldn't be difficult to add, as that should only change the base-uri 17:45:38 luis: It's one of the reasons why I haven't made hyperdoc public outside of #lisp 17:46:34 (I won't have time; give it a try) 17:47:48 proq [n=user@71-20-201-84.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:23 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:23 18:52:23 -!- names: ccl-logbot jgracin Tordek GmanZorz milanj- Fare davazp Fade delYsid lisppaste mgr authentic raison rbancroft boyscared mtd myrkraverk` rey_ krappie hypno serichsen dysinger sykopomp|work DrForr schmx angerman akamaus shrughes Adamant mathrick rahul robewald_ ia puchacz jmbr slyrus dnolen amnesiac LiamH cyberhuman gruseom Wombatzus srcerer Foofie sepult tarbo Tristam ASau`` eno proq Adlai dstatyvka luis``` whoppix_ cornucopic Sumpen pkhuong 18:52:23 -!- names: lukjad007 BrianRice frontier1 prxq mrSpec lnostdal timor msingh Edico moah jleija rudi redline6561 Nshag lhz rrice lharc Stattrav araujo carlocci piso dfox cvandusen drewc Vonunov Borbus Odin- ramus` Edward__ phf CrazyEddy ruediger Khisanth guaqua_ smithzv_ r0bby_ sykopomp` djinni` _8david acieroid grouzen mcspiff` YuleAthas huangjs` Pepe_ Demosthenes koning_robot emma TR2N Dawgmatix Davidbrcz c|mell jtza8 DeusExPikachu nipra ikki blackened` 18:52:23 -!- names: kejsaren legumbre xinming_ kami dlowe rstandy rajesh AntiSpamMeta tvaalen Zhivago Beeggor Adrinael sytse foom Aisling Xach j0ni zbigniew yacin avalanche^ madnificent Posterdati p8m antifuchs moesenle jyujin scode luis nasloc__ ironChicken retupmoca billstclair fgtech rdd` jp_larocque herbieB m4thrick ecraven cmatei setheus frodef nuba erg skeptomai|away cYmen nicktastic Helheim cpt_nemo felipe tmitt manituuuu hdurer__ kmc prip dcrawford dalkvist_ 18:52:23 -!- names: egn froydnj tessier ve Axioplase_ nareshov hoeq bfein rlonstein blast_hardcheese stepnem liron` codemonkeyx Bucciarati anekos rpg Taggnostr Ralith tcr myst qebab rread OmniMancer1 Kolyan fiveop Patzy spoofy Younder xan s0ber kleppari yahooooo moocow joga konr benny JAS415 aja Madsy daniel Spaghettini saikatc stassats` cmm gz sohum coyo pem metasyntax` Dodek vcgomes PissedNumlock ineiros bakkdoor johs ianmcorvidae esden lupine_85 rotty thijso 18:52:23 -!- names: plan9 trittweiler guenthr_ _3b` fnordus phadthai _deepfire rootzlevel aking slackjaw mornfall spacebat_ albino arbscht spiaggia jrockway Xof metric qidush kuwabara kejsaren_ Buganini borisc fihi09`` bobbysmith007 wlr ryepup ^boris bdowning sjbach cataska beach sellout antoszka hicx174 bx7 abeaumont wgl rullie cods rsynnott Xantoz tic mikezor ztzg__ cupe tltstc Legooolas KatrinaTheLamia p_l Guest48442 Raptelan ahaas djm guaq jkantz isomer 18:52:23 -!- names: TDT highb dostoyevsky pok z0d jsnell housel slather hohum alexbobp _3b peddie rapacity Ginei_Morioka chii ski Soulman ``Erik dto lemoinem minion specbot pragma_ kooll clog fatalnix1995 nullman bobrown`` Orest^bnc tsuru joast 18:56:06 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@62.75.166.245] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:03 tcr: hmm, the hyperdoc dependency leaks onto the fasls. Anyway to work around that? 18:59:18 *Any way 19:01:11 tcr: also, the doc says slime-fancy would load slime-hyperdoc but it doesn't. 19:02:51 -!- rudi [n=rudi@84-119-75-76.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 19:03:05 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-145-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:27 luis: C-C C-d h 19:04:13 Younder: well, if slime-hyperdoc is loaded, that works sure. 19:04:36 bjorkintosh [n=bjork@ip72-204-40-138.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:40 luis, I have nothing but slime-fancy and asdf extensions and it works for me. (I think 'bare' slime does too) 19:06:06 Younder: are you sure it's hyperdoc, not hyperspec? 19:06:45 luis, oops, I am thinking hyperspec 19:07:02 what's a good plug-and-play-batteries included common lisp to play with? 19:07:32 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:08 minion, tell bjorkintosh about SBCL 19:08:09 bjorkintosh: have a look at SBCL: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/SBCL 19:08:27 or you could try the trial versions of one of the commercial lisps 19:08:33 bjorkintosh, see www.gigamonkeys.com/book when finished look into cliki and clbuild 19:08:59 jyujin [n=mdeining@62.75.166.245] has joined #lisp 19:09:43 i lost some old lisp manuals a while back and lost interest, but i found a bunch of them again at some used bookstores for pretty dirt cheap... winston/norvig/touretzky and steele's tome. 19:10:07 <_8david> ssh://repo.or.cz/srv/git/hyperspec-lookup.git should have the correct path name for *.txt 19:10:22 so hopefully sbcl works nicely with the examples in those books. 19:10:46 <_8david> uhm, make that http://repo.or.cz/w/hyperspec-lookup.git 19:11:07 btw, what about clojure? is it pretty decent as well? 19:11:24 grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:11:27 bjorkintosh: #clojure can give you a case for clojure 19:11:29 _8david: if I weren't myself guilty of letting webpages rot and other such sins I would now complain loudly. Instead I offer to update hyperspec-lookup's webpage. :) 19:11:41 s/offer/volunteer 19:11:57 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:12:48 <_8david> hmm, looks like I actually got commit access following the http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/hyperspec-lookup-devel/2008-December/000006.html discussion 19:14:09 luis: leaking into fasl? 19:14:28 luis: slime-hyperdoc needs some tweaking before it should be enabled for slime-fancy 19:16:48 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:03 Just set up a stumpWM. (It's written in CL) 19:18:00 luis: :base-uri should probably be renamed to :default-base-uri, and then a SET-BASE-URI function should be provided for users so they can specify mirrors 19:18:20 luis: Perhaps a ~/.hyperdoc.lisp should be loaded in for that purpose 19:18:42 tcr: also, CFFI for example could point hyperdoc at its own tree 19:19:02 How do you mean? 19:19:06 I recomend setting the default key to the 'windows' key rather that C-t though as that is used by some programs. 19:19:10 tcr: as could all of ediware which include the html file 19:20:09 Unforunatly that means recompiling the WM. 19:20:19 tcr: I'm not being terribly clear. Do you understand what I'm talking about? 19:21:43 _8david: I can also make clbuild point to that repository 19:22:13 Younder, I believe you can set the prefix key in your RC file 19:22:22 ie, in ~/.stumpwmrc 19:24:51 Adlai, I looked in the source and the C-t extension uses a macro in bindings.lisp for the buildt in settings so it is hardcoded. You can add new ones on .stumpwm sure.. 19:29:14 Younder, you can still override it in your .stumpwmrc 19:29:35 the fact that it uses a macro doesn't make any difference 19:30:15 Adlai, but you would have to add ALL the buildt in commands instead of changing ONE line in bindings.lisp 19:30:25 no 19:31:16 you'd just need to put one line in your .stumpwmrc: (define-key *top-map* (kbd ) '*root-map*) 19:32:33 you can even change it at runtime 19:32:35 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 19:33:08 luis: No I'm not sorry 19:33:18 http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/ai-overview.html 19:33:35 luis: what's your cl.net account? 19:33:52 -!- akamaus [n=maus@89.251.162.138] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:34:12 md1 [n=user@chello089173014026.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 19:35:02 Adlai, there is a macro fill-keymap and then a (fill-keymap *top-map* *escape-key* *root-map*) 19:35:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:27 Younder, that doesn't make a difference. You can evaluate forms with macros at runtime. 19:36:59 also, read the macro's source. 19:37:06 Adlai, but you are in effect recompiling that file bindings.lisp to allow fill-bindings to do ir's job 19:37:08 Younder: You can basically rewrite all of stumpwm by using .stumpwmrc 19:37:16 up. 19:37:23 *tic* has done a lot of that. 19:37:38 Younder, what!? 19:37:43 you don't need to recompile -anything- 19:38:08 just (define-key *top-map* (kbd "whateveryouwant") '*root-map*) 19:38:21 you can do that either by using 19:38:25 -!- GmanZorz [n=xolus@r75-110-111-152.rmntcmtc01.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:38:27 or by putting it in stumpwmrc and :loadrc 19:38:42 Younder, what has bindings.lisp to do with this? 19:39:02 tic, Younder seems to be confused about how macros work 19:39:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-serwvpejwvqpsefi] has joined #lisp 19:39:26 Adlai, if define-key is a macro, then I pretend not to understand /how/ it does what it does, as long as it /does/ do what it does. :-) 19:39:40 kmc__ [n=keegan@207.237.163.75] has joined #lisp 19:39:55 Adlai, Well I found it seimpler to set *escape-key* to (kbd "H") and set the hyper key to windows using xmodmap in .xstartup 19:40:13 tic, bindings.lisp uses a macro to fill the *top-map* with the escape key binding. 19:40:44 Adlai, hm... what does it do? 19:40:51 Younder, I found it simpler to not recompile stumpwm. 19:41:22 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:41:43 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:41:58 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 19:42:07 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:44:40 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@240.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:58 -!- davazp [n=user@2.Red-79-154-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:47:25 Adlai, No I'm not confused by how macroes work. The point is they work at compile time. And so bindings.lisp is committed once it is compiled. So changing *escape-key* has no effect on *top-bindings* 19:47:44 you don't need to change *escape-key* 19:48:09 you change *top-map* 19:48:29 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:48:38 Adlai, redefining the lot.. 19:48:53 *top-map* is not the same as *root-map* 19:49:30 do you understand how stumpwm's keybinding system works? 19:49:47 Adlai, roughly 19:49:55 keybindings are resolved at runtime 19:50:41 so the bindings already in *root-map* don't know or care what your escape key is 19:50:56 all you need to do is bind something in *top-map* to '*root-map* 19:51:46 luis: are you gone? 19:52:54 tcr: I'm saying that e.g. CFFI knows two good default locations: the common-lisp.net one and the local '.../cffi/doc/cffi-manual/...' 19:53:13 Adlai, still you can't just redefine C-t to the windows key and expect it to work. You need to redefine each and every key. According to you you can take the entire keymap as an argument and tus till use one line? 19:53:58 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:44 Adlai, well clearly I need to study the source more thuroughly 19:55:04 Younder, you don't need to redefine every key, just ONE binding. Just try it. 19:56:05 -!- kmc [n=keegan@64.121.133.238] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:21 keybindings are resolved key-by-key, not as a whole. There's only ONE place where (kbd "C-t") appears (that matters in this case), and that's in *top-map*. Just change that. 19:56:42 luis: ok, that makes the problem somewhat more complicated. 19:57:00 luis: Probing a local one is no problem, but probing a remote one would require drakma as dependency 19:57:04 Adlai, you're talking about the prefix-key now though.. wasn't he on about "escape key"? 19:57:17 tcr: why probe? 19:57:33 tic, the variable is called *escape-key* in the stumpwm source. 19:57:38 my .stumpwmrc says: (set-prefix-key (kbd "F20")) ; F20 = Hyper 19:57:43 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:57:50 luis: Well, I guess it'd make sense to specify several default-base-uris, probe them in order, and use the first one which exits 19:57:53 exists 19:57:55 yeah, Younder seems to be missing something... like the documentation. :-) 19:58:05 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:58:26 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 tcr: perhaps the IDE side can deal with that? 19:58:38 tic: right.. this isn't documented anywhere 19:58:41 that, or just a sense of adventure. He should have tried the one-liner when it was first pointed out. 19:59:11 Younder, wonder how I found it. 19:59:12 tcr: tagging the results as :local or :remote would probably help at some point in that process. 19:59:21 I must have looked at the sample stumpwmrc file. 19:59:24 Younder, not documented anywhere my ass. Section 2.2 of the StumpWM Manual documents set-prefix-key 19:59:48 Adlai, I stand corrected 19:59:48 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:59:55 luis: Perhaps, but that's just punting :-) 20:00:06 -!- mcspiff` [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:11 Younder, for fun and profit, read the source of that command. 20:00:21 luis: I don't know if hyperdoc should stay minimalistic or become teh kitchensink 20:01:22 tcr: I'm thinking a global variable (either on the hyperdoc's side or slime-hyperdoc's) would switch between the local and remote base documentation URIs. 20:01:52 Adlai, That souds a lot like 'smashing the stack for fun and profit' in phrack magazine.. 20:02:00 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:03 that was the point, I think. 20:02:05 a third kind of of location might be :custom or :user 20:02:09 It's a fun sentence. 20:02:25 luis: I think instead of (:FUNCTION . URI), LOOKUP should return (:FUNCTION URLI URLI) etc. and the caller should try them in order 20:02:35 and the IDE would manage the preferential order 20:02:48 e.g. (:custom :local :remote) 20:02:51 hm hm 20:02:56 tcr, are you planning on making other project be able to use your doc thingy, or is it strictly for hyperdoc? 20:03:07 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit ["so long.."] 20:03:08 s/hyperdoc/hyperspec/ 20:03:13 ? 20:03:26 Maybe I should read up some more. 20:03:43 tic: http://common-lisp.net/project/hyperdoc/#usage_(library_hacker) 20:03:47 plutonas` [n=plutonas@port-92-195-145-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:08 thanks! 20:04:12 tic: libraries are supposed to register their documentation, so (hyperdoc-aware) IDEs can automatically take advantage of them 20:04:14 tcr: anyway regarding the leaking onto to the fasl, here's what I meant: 1. load hyperdoc 2. load CFFI with included hyperdoc declaration 3. load the compiled CFFI into a fresh image without hyperdoc => error 20:04:26 tcr, cool, that's what I wondered about. 20:04:38 mcspiff` [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 20:04:44 tcr: probably not a big deal. 20:05:30 luis: Very true, I haven't even thought of that 20:06:05 luis: I'm open for suggestions. You can use the editor-hints ml for discussion. 20:06:12 ah, I can avoid this by placing the hyperdoc form in its own file and placing an #+hyperdoc entry in the .asd file. 20:06:44 or placing the hyperdoc form in the .asd file, I suppose. 20:07:03 luis: When you have the group bits, you can push a change which changes the docstring in package.lisp 20:07:21 and mention this as best practise 20:07:24 tcr: ok, but which is a better solution? 20:07:59 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-10-218.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:08:00 the .asd scenario only works with hyperdoc preloaded, doesn't it? 20:08:21 well, that's always a problem 20:08:38 well no, that's what :weakly-depends-on is supposed to do 20:08:53 <_8david> uhm, what happened to the old hyperdoc architecture that worked without a dependency? 20:08:56 ah, good point 20:09:21 _8david: the dependency of hyperdoc is temporary only, I forgot to purge it 20:09:37 sorry the dependency on hyperspec-lookup in hyperdoc 20:09:49 which is not what david is talking about, is it? 20:10:17 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.250.254] has joined #lisp 20:10:33 *luis* wishes we were discussing this in London. it'd be much more productive. :) 20:10:40 Perhaps, I have to go now , though :-) 20:10:44 I won't be there sorry 20:10:50 oh :-/ 20:10:50 <_8david> Hyperdoc used to be able to look up stuff from any package that had a HYPERDOC-LOOKUP function. No dependency from that package's system to hyperdoc was required (neither weak nor strong). 20:11:12 addled [n=adl@77.208.15.53] has joined #lisp 20:11:16 _8david: oh, indeed. 20:11:34 I can resurrect parts of it 20:11:47 <_8david> tcr: we'll just discuss it without you in London, have a vote, and then you'll implement our design choice, right? ;-) 20:11:48 it sounds like the best way to go 20:11:50 <_8david> (just kidding) 20:11:56 *luis* holds off the CFFI patch 20:12:04 uhm I don't see why honestly 20:12:08 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-145-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:36 well, the previous architecture is simpler 20:12:37 what's wrong with the way I outlined in the manual 20:12:52 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:13:15 the fasl dependency on the hyperdoc package 20:13:16 Dunno I find one toplevel registration form more aesthetic 20:13:36 send a mail to editor-hints 20:14:25 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.146] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:14:54 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-25-244.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:14:56 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 20:15:52 will write something up 20:17:25 bah, I wanted to clear out my TODO list and instead I added a bunch of new ones. 20:17:52 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:19:22 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:20:21 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-76-229.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:23:27 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-173.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:22 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:17 lispm [n=joswig@g224121160.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:47 BrianRice-work [n=briantri@70.102.219.22] has joined #lisp 20:32:45 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:34:15 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:02 rrice1 [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has joined #lisp 20:35:10 -!- rrice1 [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:55 -!- smithzv_ [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:59 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:50 roidrage_ [n=roidrage@dslb-088-068-004-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:34 -!- kpreid___ [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 20:44:19 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e181182133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:06 prxq [n=mommer@78.52.215.175] has joined #lisp 20:45:08 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:48:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:09 wow..i've been told that PAIP isn't about AI but about programming in common lisp. 20:51:36 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.132.38.178] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:52:39 TDT: and it's a good one too. 20:53:25 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:53:29 I've read a pretty decent part of PAIP, and it really doesn't seem only about CL to me. I don't know, saying that PAIP is a book on learning lisp just seems...meh 20:53:47 Well yeah. 20:53:49 I think I learned just as much about prolog 20:54:10 -!- BrianRice-work [n=briantri@70.102.219.22] has left #lisp 20:54:10 TDT: It's not a good book about AI, that's for sure :) 20:54:25 *schmx* hugs prolog 20:54:49 I'm surprised its lispy prolog didn't take off more as its own platform 20:54:56 schmx: hmm, thought PAIP was primary for learning AI, and less so on the Lisp thing..well, after the first few chapters, thatis. 20:55:10 dlowe: It could be because the lispy prolog is a bit shit :) 20:55:35 schmx: doesn't mean you couldn't polish it into a jewel 20:55:35 TDT: Maybe it was a good AI book 50000 years ago then (: 20:55:57 PAIP is just a really nice book to learn about a lot of interesting things. Like continuations, symbolic algebra, etc. And lisp, of course. 20:55:59 dlowe: I guess.. but hrmm.. one would have to speed it up a lot. and make it you know.. let one use it like a normal prolog (: 20:56:07 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:56:34 ah, hmm.... 20:56:35 dlowe: I seem to remember allegro having some lispy prolog. I suspect that is a bit faster and polished. 20:57:02 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:57:04 TDT: For AI there is the ai: a modern approach (: 20:58:01 -!- rrice [n=rrice@63.81.0.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:04 Peter Norvig and Stuart Russel 21:00:26 Though I also recommend "Learning from data" by Vladimir Cherkassky and Philip Muiler 21:00:36 -!- whoppix_ is now known as whoppix 21:00:55 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:04 Yeah, he mentioned that AI book. Expensive book, I'll have to look at it a bit. 21:01:35 And "Pattern Recognition and Machine Learning" by Christopher M. Bichop 21:01:42 Bishop 21:03:23 For a introducion into statistics and it's applications to machine learning. 21:03:32 -!- sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:04:34 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-216-183.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 21:04:41 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:06:06 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:48 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:14 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:12:20 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.39] has joined #lisp 21:13:03 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 21:13:33 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:15:36 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:18:04 hi, is there any way to literally return nothing? (ie. not nil) (apply #'+ (list 1 2 (nothing))) would call (+ 1 2) 21:18:10 egn: (values) 21:18:29 though (values) would be NIL 21:18:34 when used 21:18:41 oh, I see. no, not really. you should construct your list to be what you actually want 21:18:45 egn: no. Everything has a value, except in explicitly multiple-value contexts. 21:18:52 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:56 multiple-value-call maybe... 21:19:00 dlowe: stassats`: pkhuong: ok, thanks 21:19:14 egn, yes (values) returns nothing 21:19:16 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:20 stassats`, (values) is NOT nil 21:20:26 oh yeah? 21:20:33 (type-of (values)) => NULL 21:21:00 stassats`, but it is not evaluated or printed as nil 21:21:02 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:41 egn: (apply #'+ (nconc (list 1 2) (when some-condition (list 3))) 21:21:59 if you don't want the 3rd thing, have the condition fail 21:22:03 bfein: ah, thanks 21:22:59 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:23:03 Younder: like that helps egn 21:24:01 stassats`: it's the calling convention that makes (values) become NIL, not (values) itself 21:24:26 stassats`, ending a function in (values) is valuable idiom.Not the same as returning nil. 21:24:47 egn: the important question is, why does your list have things in it that you don't want in it? 21:25:09 Younder: that's all great, but did you see the question? 21:25:16 egn: oh, you're actually calling something in there, so yes, bfein's solution may be best 21:25:26 Younder, when does the program see a difference between (values) and NIL? 21:25:51 egn: um... but apply will allow NIL as the final arg 21:25:53 well a normal form is ideal. but nil is usefull for don't care when that ideal can't be met. 21:25:56 lispm: (multiple-value-list nil) vs (multiple-value-list (values)) 21:26:06 right 21:26:23 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:28 egn: are you actually calling apply like that, or is it a bunch of different things intermixed? 21:26:55 lispm, in funtions that strictly output (except for sbcl, which prints a annoying message) 21:27:16 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:27:21 rahul: it's arguments to sb-ext:run-program, so it's just a list 21:27:25 Younder: ??? 21:27:27 TDT` [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:29 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:48 -!- TDT` [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:49 Younder: (print nil) vs (print (values)) ? 21:27:52 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 21:27:58 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:00 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:01 egn: what's just a list? an empty list has no elements 21:28:40 lispm: No, (progn (print ...) (print ...) ... (values)) 21:28:46 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.250.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:29:41 lispm, where it does not care abouta return value. 21:29:50 this is kind of a stupid conversation, although it was interesting to see the m-v-l example. 21:30:28 -!- roidrage_ [n=roidrage@dslb-088-068-004-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:29 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 21:30:32 rahul: sorry, if this helps it's: (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/foo" '("-bar" "-baz")) and I wanted to omit one if a condition is met. bfein's solution should do the trick 21:30:40 that's what repl is doing, taking m-v-l and outputting all values and printing "No values" when it's null 21:30:53 -!- mcspiff` [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:57 sykopomp, yep, an ANSI-compliant REPL would be implemented with m-v-l 21:30:58 Younder: (defun f () (progn (print 1) (print 2) (values))) 21:31:04 egn: you might also like to use backquote syntax there 21:31:14 Younder: (defun g () (progn (print 1) (print 2) nil)) 21:31:21 now: (dotimes (i 100) (f)) 21:31:39 vs. (dotimes (i 100) (g)) 21:31:41 ?? 21:31:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:54 both print the same 21:31:55 egn: (run-prog ".." `("-x" ,@(when y `("-y" ,y)) ,#files)) 21:32:03 lispm: you don't need the progn in defun it is implicit 21:32:09 I now 21:32:15 still they print the same 21:32:43 lispm: Try them from the command line 21:32:55 REPL 21:33:07 you are not reading the discussion, are you? 21:33:23 Younder: the same 21:33:41 Younder: no difference 21:34:03 lispm no, returning (values) and nil are not the same 21:34:13 nuff said, I'm off 21:34:34 you said that function that print do something different 21:34:45 but both functions print the same 21:34:49 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:34:54 the REPL output also looks the same 21:35:15 (dotimes (i 100 (values)) ...) 21:36:08 lispm, (values) prints ;no values, nil prints nil. Hardly the same 21:36:43 -!- plutonas` is now known as plutonas 21:36:49 values prints? 21:37:02 I did not know that it is an output function 21:37:27 lispm try entering the code from the REPL. 21:37:54 lispm: that is the only place it matters 21:37:55 the functions I showed you both print NIL at the end 21:38:08 actually the REPL does 21:38:16 lism: check again 21:38:21 rahul: cool, that'll work too, thanks 21:38:25 check again your self 21:38:33 you haven't checked 21:38:36 I did 21:39:02 Uh oh, I think I'll stay out of this. 21:39:17 ;no values vs. nil 21:39:26 in sbcl 21:39:27 *beach* goes to read his email instead 21:39:31 gota go 21:39:42 in LispWorks it prints NIL 21:40:06 Younder, that's sad that you have to go 21:40:25 lispm, in LispWorks it doesn't print anything 21:40:46 that's funny how you are talking about different things 21:41:08 hence 16:35 < rahul> (dotimes (i 100 (values)) ...) 21:41:21 Younder: wrong 21:41:39 dotimes returns nil by default. that is not (values) 21:41:44 (dotimes (i 100) (f)) and (dotimes (i 100) (g)) both have a NIL at the end 21:42:27 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224121160.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-serwvpejwvqpsefi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- krappie [n=brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06fbd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- robewald_ [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-118-176-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-126-94.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host169.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:27 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:28 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:28 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:42:36 and (values) doesn't show up as ; No value in sbcl, that's what slime is doing 21:43:08 lispm [n=joswig@g224121160.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-serwvpejwvqpsefi] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 robewald_ [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-118-176-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 angerman [n=angerman@host169.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06fbd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 krappie [n=brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-126-94.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:20 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:24 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:58 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.138.201] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:44:54 konr [n=konrad@201.82.138.201] has joined #lisp 21:46:11 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.138.201] has quit [Client Quit] 21:48:15 konr [n=konrad@201.82.138.201] has joined #lisp 21:49:28 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-186-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:50:52 <_deepfire> I wonder how anti-CLOS is to call the next method more than once. 21:53:25 _deepfire: if it makes sense, it makes sense 21:53:37 _deepfire: I do that in a method combination, tho 21:54:57 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:41 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 21:55:47 Greetings lispers. 21:56:42 -!- raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:58:35 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:59:04 jmbr [n=jmbr@213.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:59:46 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:00:57 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 22:01:26 Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:52 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:07:50 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.133.163] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:38 -!- ^boris [n=st0kez@cpe-174-097-167-073.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:15 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:35 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:10:34 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:11:13 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:12:40 confounds [n=confound@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:58 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:17 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:14:47 -!- confounds [n=confound@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 22:15:02 confounds [n=confound@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:43 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #lisp 22:17:28 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 22:18:31 mcspiff` [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 22:20:50 *sigh* 22:20:55 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-107-60.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:23:04 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:23:36 beach: don't worry, everything will be okay :) 22:23:38 what would you guys recommend for interfacing with mysql? clsql or cl-rdbms? I don't want an ORM. 22:23:47 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 22:24:31 *lispm* sighs 22:24:38 serichsen: Thanks for your moral support 22:25:01 *lispm* looks at Unicode CMUCL 22:25:05 clsql gets mentioned a lot, but it seems to use UFFI, so it smells of very old and unmaintained <_< 22:26:03 sykopomp: I don't know cl-rdbms. clsql has a reader-syntax for writing sql-analogous statements 22:26:17 Heh. It also looks as if cl-rdbms can't to mysql 22:26:20 clsql it is, then. 22:26:27 'night all 22:26:38 Goodnight beach 22:26:39 sykopomp, I believe cffi has a uffi-compat mode 22:26:44 goodnight beach 22:26:56 Adlai: sure, but that's not relevant here. 22:27:16 well, you could patch clsql :P 22:27:27 Adlai: that's not the point, either :\ 22:27:45 ok :| 22:27:45 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:27:52 I only had problems with that reader-syntax when I wanted to do C-c C-c in slime, but that might be solved by named-readtables (still haven't tried that) 22:28:54 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:28:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:29:39 sykopomp: clsql also has a comprehensive online manual, so you can look whether it has what you need 22:30:23 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:26 serichsen: thanks :) 22:31:24 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.138.201] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:31:50 konr [n=konrad@201.82.138.201] has joined #lisp 22:32:15 If anyone from the Common Lisp community is interested in Scheme standardization, I urge them to apply for it. 22:32:27 (There is a call for volunteers at http://www.rhinocerus.net/forum/lang-scheme/605316-looking-volunteers-scheme-language-working-groups-1-2-a.html) 22:32:31 and jump into -that- clusterfuck? 22:32:36 :| 22:32:59 I am the chair of WG2 (large Scheme), and it's generally agreed that cross-fertilization from other communities would be helpful. 22:33:41 what is the difference between wg1 and wg2? 22:33:46 small and large? 22:34:24 I see 22:34:59 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:35:34 saikatc_ [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:05 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:57 -!- kami 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[n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:44:54 -!- md1 [n=user@chello089173014026.chello.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:48:13 -!- benny` is now known as benny 23:52:46 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:55:43 good night 23:56:18 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06fbd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["it's a dark night"] 23:57:09 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:54 -!- confounds [n=confound@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp