00:01:59 Indeed. So a superior Lisp would be one that started Emacs. (All this terminology goes back to ITS.) 00:02:43 Is that the case with SLIME? Is Emacs being started by Lisp in this case? 00:03:36 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:04:15 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 00:04:54 -!- sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:27 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 00:10:17 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@194-144-58-124.du.xdsl.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 00:11:12 <_3b> no, emacs still starts the lisp, the mode is 'superior' not the lisp 00:14:33 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:20 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 00:21:24 -!- Osaka [n=yuki@pool-71-101-100-190.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:25:21 _8david [n=user@pD9541171.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:25:48 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:26:14 *nyef* actually has experimented with starting emacs with RUN-PROGRAM and a -eval argument that would cause slime to connect back. 00:27:28 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD9542BF7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:30:27 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90157.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:30:27 if i have a (defun foo ...) and a (defun (setf foo) ...) and some other function: (defun bar () (declare (inline foo)) ...) 00:30:44 will the (setf foo) get inlined as well? 00:30:50 No, it's a separate function. 00:31:07 Also note that you have to declaim the functions inline before you define them or the compiler won't remember how to inline them. 00:31:21 right 00:31:52 how do i inline the setf fn then? 00:32:06 <_3b> you might also need to declaim them notinline after defining them if you only want them inlined when there is a local inline declaration :) 00:32:24 Same way you inline the normal function, only with (setf foo) instead of foo. 00:32:30 oh ok 00:33:01 _3b: oh, thanks for the tip. I was unclear about that subtlety. 00:33:53 <_3b> well, i suppose if you used a local declartion around the function definition, you wouldn't need to undo it 00:34:25 That's... an interesting thought. 00:34:35 Never thought to try doing that with a LOCALLY. 00:35:06 (Used it to establish optimization policies, yes, but not to tell the compiler to remember how to inline something.) 00:35:17 <_3b> looks like LOCALLY preserves top-levelness 00:35:42 -!- aeron [n=aerrant_@129.101.136.195] has quit [] 00:36:57 <_3b> actually, i suppose using LOCALLY for that could even be useful, if you wanted a not inlined by default but inlinable function with a compiler macro used by default 00:39:49 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-193-81.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:41:26 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:34 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:43:33 davazp 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#lisp 02:42:21 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:43:26 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:21 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 02:51:20 Joreji [n=thomas@45-242.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 02:51:29 ericklc [n=ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 03:01:54 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 03:04:02 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-36-118.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 03:10:30 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:11:08 Shamiq [n=Adium@24-155-205-80.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:08 so i'm doing closures, and was wondering if someone could take a gander at my code 03:12:11 Shamiq pasted "memoize" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91623 03:12:14 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:13:28 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 03:16:25 <_3b> Shamiq: why PUSH instead of SETF? 03:16:53 <_3b> Shamiq: also, you probably want to return the actual value if it is in the hash instead of the present-p return value 03:16:55 copying graham's style 03:17:19 <_3b> without understanding it? 03:17:19 please don't copy graham's style ;_; 03:17:39 <_3b> PUSH vs SETF isn't style, they do different things 03:17:56 "Since gethash returns nil by default, and push is an abbreviation for a 03:17:56 setf, we can simply push new strings into the entry for a function." 03:18:21 _3b: could you explain why i would use SETF instead? 03:18:32 <_3b> Shamiq: right, if you have a list of things in the hash, push lets you add to that list 03:18:48 <_3b> i assume you aren't going to collect multiple copies of the presumably same return value from your function 03:18:55 that's true. 03:19:13 <_3b> so you only want 1 copy of it in the hash, so putting that 1 thing in a list is a bit odd 03:19:32 i see 03:20:09 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:16 <_3b> if you did that you would need to add code in the case where it is in the hash already to remove it fom the list 03:20:18 mutew_ [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:48 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:17 <_3b> also, seems odd to store VAL in a temp var and only use it once, but not bother to store the results of GETHASH, which you actually use more than once 03:21:51 <_3b> (storing VAL in a temp isn't bad, if you think it makes the code clearer though) 03:21:52 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-155-185.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-155-185.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:25 <_3b> ooops, i guess you do use it twice, you wouldn't need to with SETF though 03:22:47 <_3b> which reminds me, fix your indentation so that sort of thing is more obvious :p 03:26:03 i'll annotate the code. 03:26:25 Shamiq annotated #91623 "memoize #2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91623#1 03:26:59 so now it's failing to recognize when i call a list twice (ie '(a b) ) 03:27:19 <_3b> did you pass the same list, or just one that looks like it? 03:27:37 looks like it. 03:28:01 oof, an eql equal issue? 03:28:18 <_3b> yep 03:28:18 <_3b> clhs make-hash-table 03:28:19 -!- giantg2 [n=georgeya@144.80.7.90] has quit ["See ya"] 03:28:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm 03:28:25 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:29:48 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:29:57 ah, k 03:30:04 that's just about all my bugs... 03:31:18 <_3b> i'd still try to only call GETHASH once, since presumably you do this for performance 03:31:42 i was doing it to practice hash tables, but i see your point. 03:31:54 <_3b> or at least wrap the last GETHASH call in VALUES so it doesn't return an extra value when the value is cached 03:32:37 could you explain that last one? 03:32:58 <_3b> well, even for practice, make sure you aren't practicing any bad habits along with your main goal :) 03:33:05 =) 03:33:45 <_3b> when you run your memoized function on an arg that is already cached, what does it return? 03:34:04 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:44 the default case in the cond -- so (gethash n acc) ;==> VAL T 03:35:02 <_3b> right, what does it return when the value isn't cached? 03:35:10 VAL 03:35:16 <_3b> and are those the same? :) 03:35:33 nope -- so how do i only send back one? 03:35:38 <_3b> clhs VALUES 03:35:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm 03:35:40 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:09 <_3b> but you could have just saved that value from the first call to GETHASH, so that would probably be a better option 03:37:32 Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-67-12.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:49 *p_l* just noticed interesting references in hyperspec 03:38:08 should i put the whole cond in a let for the gethash? 03:38:20 clhs 2.4.5 03:38:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_de.htm 03:38:28 and look at 3rd example :D 03:38:42 <_3b> i'd probably switch it to nested IF, since you don't call gethash at all for the first branch of the COND 03:39:09 prof is adamant against that and wouldn't accept the code =( 03:39:20 <_3b> what, readable code? 03:39:51 i think he prefers COND over nested IF all the time. 03:40:01 <_3b> i guess you could use nested CONDs or something 03:40:30 <_3b> i didn't mean directly nested, (IF ... (LET ... (IF ... ...))) 03:40:41 yea, i got that part 03:41:05 <_3b> well, if your professor objects to that, you should get your money back :p 03:41:09 hehe 03:41:16 so i've got 1 bug left.... 03:41:30 <_3b> (objecting to directly nested IF is OK though) 03:41:41 if i call memoize with a different function, it's not resetting the hash table. 03:41:58 i mean 03:41:59 no 03:42:09 <_3b> oh yeah, that part looks broken too :p 03:42:26 rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:30 _3b: I use when/return-from instead of if/let/if. 03:43:15 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, that might be cleaner too 03:43:44 *_3b* isn't completely sure what that first branch is supposed to do anyway though 03:44:21 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:44:30 hm, it's a paragraph of a paste 03:44:39 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:44:42 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:47 Shamiq annotated #91623 "problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91623#2 03:45:04 -!- Cassaurus [n=cass72@79-74-32-154.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:15 <_3b> ok, looks like it does that then :) 03:45:50 hm 03:45:57 i don't think the test cases are broken. 03:46:05 <_3b> also, your indentation is still broken :p 03:46:12 haha, yea 03:46:36 -!- geekles [n=smh@65.27.73.151] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:47:05 Shamiq annotated #91623 "Better indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91623#3 03:47:37 <_3b> nope, broken differently now :p 03:47:39 eh, the branches lined up in the editor.... 03:47:42 haha 03:48:50 <_3b> also, you don't need the #' with LAMBDA (but it doesn't really hurt, and some people prefer that style) 03:49:20 so if i switch functions and start off by calling with no arguments, it should clear the table. 03:49:28 ie 03:49:43 <_3b> probably better to just not share the table between functions 03:49:49 (let ((memo-fn2 (memoize #'call-fn))) ...) 03:50:12 -!- Osaka_ [n=Alien@fl-71-3-67-12.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:29 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:38 that let statement is a call without arguments, gut it's not creating a new hash table :S 03:53:17 <_3b> ? 03:53:29 s/gut/but 03:53:36 <_3b> did you mean in the ... somewhere? 03:54:29 <_3b> (memoize #'call-fn) doesn't call the closure 03:54:38 i see 03:55:18 <_3b> even if you did call the closure with no arguments though, all closures created by memoize would still share the same hash table 03:55:45 <_3b> so all would get reset at once, and all would see eachother's stored values 03:55:49 so how should i go about making a new hash table and keeping track of it? 03:56:01 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-5-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:56:09 <_3b> well, when do you want it created? 03:56:39 hm 03:56:54 i could keep track of my functions in the LET before my DEFUN 03:57:13 and then generate my hash-tables within the defun 03:57:17 no 03:57:18 hm 03:57:24 lnostdal-lisp [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 03:57:25 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-24-135.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:58:37 <_3b> well, part of your answer is there, you want to create the hash table when you call MEMOIZE, right? 03:59:05 yea, i'm just not sure how to keep track of them once i've created them. 03:59:15 <_3b> how do you keep track of any value? 03:59:20 hehe 03:59:52 i meant keeping track of which var is which. 04:00:22 as in func1 has a hash and func 2 has a hash, so how do i make sure i'm using the right hash. 04:00:24 <_3b> why do you need to do that, instead of letting Lisp deal with it? 04:00:35 ahhh, my mind is blown. 04:00:43 okay, so 04:00:45 <_3b> so back to the original question: how do you keep track of any value? 04:00:51 variable. 04:01:21 <_3b> right, so you want a new variable each time you call MEMOIZE 04:02:05 my mind is telling me to make a hash table of hash tables 04:02:12 but my soul is telling me that's stupid. 04:02:29 <_3b> :) 04:02:34 -!- mutew_ [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:46 <_3b> well, you know how to make variables, right? 04:02:55 -!- lnostdal-lisp [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit ["whot"] 04:02:55 <_3b> (or more accurately, variable bindings) 04:03:06 as in setf? 04:03:29 <_3b> no, setf creates no bindings or variables (at least not in CL as specified) 04:03:41 <_3b> (some lisps do it anyway just for convenience, but it isn't portable) 04:04:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:04:32 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:04:33 well, i know gensym exists 04:04:37 but that's not a variable. 04:04:40 <_3b> no, that creates symbols 04:04:56 <_3b> well, look at your code so far... it has variables in it :p 04:05:11 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-74.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 04:05:14 via lets? 04:05:21 <_3b> right 04:05:37 <_3b> (you also create some with DEFUN and LAMBDA, but those aren't what you want here) 04:06:01 okay 04:07:16 i'm not grokking how to keep track of dynamically generated hash tables 04:08:29 <_3b> well, let's review then... in each call to memoize, you want to create a hash table, right? 04:08:39 <_3b> then the closure needs to be able to see it after it is created, so you need to store it in a variable binding somewhere 04:08:55 <_3b> and you want a new variable binding for each call to MEMOIZE 04:09:03 <_3b> and LET creates variable bindings 04:09:14 but why do i want a new table for each call to memoize? 04:09:43 i would only want a new table if my function has changed, right? 04:09:53 <_3b> well, if you don't want that, you might be stuck with the hash table of functions thing :/ 04:10:14 i am very sorry if i am being dense, it's been a very long day 04:10:15 *_3b* was assuming you wouldn't memoize the same function multiple times 04:10:43 <_3b> don't worry about it, i'm being intentionally indirect in hopes of making you understand things better :) 04:11:04 ht [n=ht@ip98-160-237-110.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:44 -!- ericklc [n=ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:12:11 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.30] has joined #lisp 04:12:13 <_3b> sort of depends on how you interpret the spec for your problem 04:12:46 <_3b> does it mean 'previously seen' by /that closure/ by any closure, or by any closure created with the same function 04:13:19 <_3b> i'd probably read it as one of the first 2, probably the first, since the 2nd would be silly :) 04:14:19 well 04:14:31 the test code starts with 3 new, different values 04:14:39 repeats the values 04:14:54 and checks EQAUAL on the values 04:15:04 EQUAL* 04:15:31 i'm not being clear enough 04:15:40 i'll paste the test 04:16:01 Shamiq annotated #91623 "Test Code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91623#4 04:18:21 -!- ht [n=ht@ip98-160-237-110.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:20:19 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 04:20:28 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 04:20:54 <_3b> ok, so that eliminates the 2nd option 04:21:35 <_3b> well, sort of, the tests don't look very conprehensive :p 04:21:43 no, they don't 04:22:25 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 04:22:38 *_3b* would create a new hash-table for each call to memoize though 04:23:44 i think i'm going to step away from this one till the morning 04:24:30 -!- Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-67-12.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:36:09 <_3b> is there a better way to write (pathname-match-p #p"/foo/bar.baz" (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute :wild-inferiors) :type "baz")) ? 04:42:47 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:43:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:47:08 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.56.148.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:47:16 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:31 Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-77-124.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:59 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 04:50:16 bfein_ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:25 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@45-242.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:51:36 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:38 anyone know a good guide to setting up emacs and slime for hacking on cygwin? I installed cygwin, checked out latest slime, set up my .emacs file, but when I M-x slime, I get a message that it exited abnormally with code 57. Google doesn't lead to any results when I tried to find what code 57 is... 04:55:16 *_3b* uses msys/mingw instead of cygwin 04:55:51 <_3b> i think nyef had some notes about cygwin+slime+sbcl though 04:57:21 I'm trying to use clisp, but anything would be helpful at this point 04:57:29 do you know where I'd find those notes? 04:58:14 <_3b> http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/sbcl-win32-slime-and-cygwin-emacs.txt seems to be it 04:58:50 thanks 04:58:56 <_3b> if you are using cygwin emacs and clisp, most of that probably doesn't apply though 05:01:16 yeah, doesn't look like it applies 05:01:18 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:35 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.143.24] has joined #lisp 05:02:09 quick survey: how useful would you say are anonymous genfuns? 05:02:14 <_3b> does it print anything in *inferior-lisp* when you run slime? 05:02:23 hmm, I think I see the problem 05:02:28 yes 05:02:52 <_3b> Adlai: depends on how easy they are to use 05:03:13 (progn (load "/home/Ben/hacking/slime/swank-loader.lisp" (funcall (read-from-string "swank:start-server") "/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Ben/LOCALS~1/Temp/slime.480" 05:03:31 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@24-155-205-80.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has left #lisp 05:03:42 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@231.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:03:42 I'd love it if slime didn't try to use my windows temp directory, and instead used cygwins local /tmp 05:03:51 I bet the ~1 is what is screwing it up 05:04:16 <_3b> you are using cygwin clisp? 05:04:23 yup 05:04:28 everything within cygwin 05:05:16 my .emacs has its inferior-lisp-program set to cygwins "/bin/clisp.exe -K full" 05:06:19 -!- lpolzer__ [n=sky@dslb-088-073-239-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:29 lpolzer__ [n=sky@dslb-088-073-210-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:40 -!- reid08 [n=reid08@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:07:10 in slime.el, I wonder if (memq system-type '(ms-dos windows-nt)) is returning t 05:07:56 <_3b> try evaluating it and see? 05:08:39 whats the key for that again, without a slime? its been a while since I did any emacs lisp stuff 05:08:56 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:08:58 wedgeV [n=wedge@74.73.37.210] has joined #lisp 05:09:11 *_3b* uses C-x C-e which works same as in slime, or you could use M-: 05:09:19 <_3b> don't remember what other options there are 05:10:44 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:46 just getting errors 05:10:53 saying the expression ends prematurely 05:10:57 I guess I could just hack it to /tmp 05:11:03 <_3b> looks like slime just asks emacs for the temp dir though, and it checks TEMP, TMPDIR, and TMP env vars if it isn't customized 05:11:38 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@74.73.37.210] has quit [Client Quit] 05:12:30 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:12:41 <_3b> hmm, or slime might do that itself 05:13:38 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 05:13:40 hah, cygwin sets TMP to that string I pasted above 05:13:46 *_3b* wouldn't really expect that to be a problem though 05:13:57 <_3b> assuming emacs and clisp both agree on what that path is 05:14:13 <_3b> which if they are both cygwin versions, they should 05:14:56 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:08 <_3b> might try running that clisp from a shell and see if it can open files in that directory, and try opening a file in that dir from emacs 05:18:03 I changed it to /tmp, same error as before 05:18:27 <_3b> and it shows as /tmp in *inferior-lisp* ? 05:18:45 yeah 05:19:12 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@196.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:25 and no, DOCUME~1 isn't openable from emacs, as the folder is actually "Documents and Settings"... don't know why it got upcased, but can't access it the way it was 05:19:38 I can access /tmp though 05:20:41 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.143.24] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:08 <_3b> it is probably also DOCUME~1 unless they dropped that in win7 or something 05:21:20 I'm running XP 05:21:41 ah, yeah, I couldn't tab complete it, but if I type it out I can get in 05:21:51 <_3b> ah, should work then, make sure you aren't using ido-find-file or something though, since that would get confused 05:22:19 hmm... any idea where I could find documentation on what erryr code 57 is? 05:22:21 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 05:22:23 <_3b> so it works with the /cygdrive/c/ at the beginning? 05:22:41 yes (well, I can access files from emacs, can't start slime) 05:23:09 <_3b> can you open /bin/clisp.exe from emacs? 05:23:27 yes 05:23:47 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:49 ah, and in the middle of it, invalid command line option 05:24:02 maybe the -K isn't good... I read that it is needed for something or other, but I'll try without 05:24:41 ah, there we go 05:24:45 <_3b> hmm, maybe it didn't build or install everything for some reason 05:24:51 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 05:24:57 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:02 <_3b> i think i use -K full when i use clisp, don't remember what it does though :p 05:25:09 well, without the -K full, I read that it wouldn't play nice with slime 05:25:16 due to some change in clisp 2.44 05:25:36 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:36 <_3b> well, i've heard clisp doesn't play as well as it could with slime in general :p 05:26:19 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.146.36] has joined #lisp 05:26:32 well, I hope it plays well enough 05:26:34 thanks for the help 05:27:22 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@ip-118-90-114-151.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:27:43 wow, it doesn't make a *slime* buffer for me? Stays in inferior-lisp... is that normal for clisp? (I'm used to SBCL and CCL) 05:28:23 <_3b> the repl is a contrib since a while back, so load the slime-repl or slime-fancy contrib in the slime-setup call in .emacs 05:28:40 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:28:44 <_3b> something like (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-tramp slime-asdf)) 05:29:30 ah 05:30:54 -!- bfein_ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:31:18 bfein_ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:06 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:32:41 hey, would anyone on 32-bit GNU/Linux like to test the breakout game that was on lisp.reddit.com? it's almost ready 05:33:14 http://github.com/dto/xe2/downloads <---- XIOBREAK download, see also the included file BINARY-README. SDL, SDL-IMAGE, SDL-MIXER, and SDL-GFX are required. 05:38:12 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:48 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-C2F2E195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 05:40:42 baddog [n=liam@110.32.148.182] has joined #lisp 05:55:51 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:59:38 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 06:01:28 now I'm having trouble getting a persistent color theme... I got color-themes, its in the load path, its loaded (I can M-x color-theme-select just fine), but adding a color theme call such as (color-theme-blue-mood) to my .emacs results in "Symbol's function definition is void: color-theme-blue-mood" 06:02:05 anyone know what may be causing that? (on cygwin) 06:04:17 is there a portable way to make undefined function warnings go away for a specific function without actually defining it at compile-time? Something like a portable register-function-info? 06:04:34 hi, is this bad intentation practice? http://paste.lisp.org/display/91625 06:06:48 Shamiq [n=Adium@24-155-205-80.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:19 i have 1. string and 1. pathname to a file 06:07:53 does (write-string my-string (open path-name)) basically do the trick? 06:08:15 <_3b> you should close the stream properly 06:08:35 hi again =) 06:09:57 egn, i guess it is bad in that slime won't indent new lines for you automatically .. (hm, well, at least not by default..) .. i think i'd go for a newline after 'foo .. or no newlines at all, in this case 06:12:29 lnostdal: ok, thanks 06:14:46 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-45.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:15:05 (let ((myfile (open local-file :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create))) 06:15:05 ....) 06:15:36 then write-string to that, then close it, then ?? then $$$ 06:16:52 use a with-open-file (or similar; point is protection via unwind-protect), Shamiq :) 06:17:47 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-118.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:17:50 Good morning! 06:17:52 Inostdal: In the let? 06:18:00 hi prof 06:18:11 no let needed, it replaces the let 06:18:31 Shamiq, (with-open-file (my-file "/home/shamiq/file.txt")) ...do stuff here...) 06:18:33 e.g., (with-open-file (myfile local-file :direction :output ...) (stuff)) 06:18:45 err .. parenfail, heh 06:19:45 can i retain the keywords? 06:20:01 yup 06:20:03 if you mean the things like :direction :output, then yes 06:20:17 milanj [n=milan@93.87.152.212] has joined #lisp 06:20:23 awesome 06:20:23 one warning: If stuff includes any non-local exits past the with-open-file, it will undo any changes. (E.g., any return-from which blows past it.) So if you are going to do anything like, you'll need to keep using open-file, and make your own unwind protect 06:20:24 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.39] has joined #lisp 06:20:35 *like that 06:20:38 no worries there 06:22:36 so then, do i need to (close myfile) afterward? 06:22:59 or i could read the spec. 06:23:02 =D 06:23:15 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 06:23:45 no need to close, with-open-file takes care of it 06:25:08 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:56 -!- Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-77-124.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:29:02 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.146.36] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:31:21 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-237-98.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:32:45 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@24-155-205-80.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has left #lisp 06:32:51 -!- MoALTz [n=no@92.23.144.26] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:44:35 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:45:30 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 06:47:22 trying to figure out how I can set up Lice on Movitz 06:48:39 MoALTz [n=heh@92.23.144.26] has joined #lisp 06:49:01 I cant even find lice for that matter 06:49:39 found a git repo 06:52:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 06:52:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:52 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 06:55:13 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:56:20 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:56:53 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 06:58:40 hard when everythings 404 07:00:32 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:02:49 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:32 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.152.212] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:15:55 hm, is it really impossible for a "Lisp OS" to co-exist nicely with a C kernel (e.g., Linux)? .. i mean; still have some nice Lispy features like real-time feedback from the kernel and introspection and, stuff? .. just linux + a lisp impl. doesn't _have_ to be UNIXy, or? .. heh 07:18:13 ECL and GCL compiles native object code that I know of which can be linked with C code, I heard to work on metal though it takes some extra tweaks 07:18:33 curiously, I am trying to figure out how to compile Movitz 07:19:45 most CL implementations are compiled to native code ("metal"), but yeah, not all produce object code that can be linked in a "C fashion", though 07:22:44 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:23:01 -!- bpr [n=user@cpe-72-231-172-136.nycap.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 07:24:05 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:24:45 "..implementations compile to native code.." 07:26:43 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["Asta-la byebye"] 07:27:55 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:16 You could just as well hack a CL environment into linux 07:30:58 -!- nachity [n=nachity@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [] 07:32:46 depends why you want a lisp os. i'm guessing it's because you want to be able to modify even the kernel in real time... 07:33:26 ...then you'd write the kernel in some sort of lisp 07:33:36 Maybe a HAL and interrupt handler in C 07:34:06 Then it'd probably be horribly slow, because you're not running it on a lisp machine 07:34:46 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 07:35:20 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp056.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:34 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Client Quit] 07:36:54 bogues [n=bogues@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:37 rmmod + modprobe, MoALTz ? 07:37:41 what are .asd's for? 07:38:02 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 07:38:10 fast..: the CL community is still trying to figure that out:) 07:38:40 fatalnix1995, .asd-files are like Makefile (the C thing for building stuff; handled by the `make' tool there) 07:38:43 fatalnix1995: that's their apt-get systems 07:38:53 that too 07:39:11 i think that'd be more similar to asdf-install actually, bogues 07:39:13 but it sucks and there's folks that are working on a xvc systme 07:39:14 ah, I hate apt-get :) but yeah I see. 07:39:36 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:39:48 the bottom line is that the typical ruby or python "apt-get" systems kindof suck 07:39:48 hmm 07:39:57 for CL 07:40:36 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@231.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:40:45 the plus is that it's not Python or Ruby....it's CL:) 07:41:59 fatalnix1995: dude, i'm kindof in the same boat as you 07:42:05 fatalnix1995: but i know a bit more 07:42:16 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:42:39 here's the deal about Common Lisp 07:42:45 bpr [n=user@cpe-72-231-172-136.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:49 you roll your own 07:43:00 please, don't :) 07:43:07 hm, your own what? 07:43:09 but yeah, that's what many people do... 07:43:27 ASDF is pretty simple and does the job .. i don't get why people give it so much heat 07:43:32 hmm. binary-types.lisp doesnt load. 07:43:38 dude, i need XML-RPC or/and a great SOAP client bad 07:44:00 (..but perhaps you meant ASDF-INSTALL .. i've never bothered with that so can't say anything there..) 07:44:50 CL is different in many, many ways...first off. CL has high-quality, very expensive commercial offerings that still make money 07:44:54 dude, at least xml-rpc should be easy to satisfy 07:45:10 xml-rpc would be nice 07:45:14 soap, well, I've not yet found two soap implementations that interoperate 07:45:21 screw SOAP 07:45:37 but a google for "common lisp xml-rpc" should provide code to satisfy you 07:45:46 of course, you might have to use asdf to compile and load it; bad luck 07:46:06 Krystof: no, i just googled SOAP last night 07:46:20 i play around with CL every 3 months 07:46:23 for scripting 07:46:26 that's what i need 07:46:34 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-115-213.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:46:41 like what Tom Pappas was on c.l.l 07:46:44 in org-mode, i've made an remember task, how do I move that task to an other org file? 07:47:06 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-115-213.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 07:47:27 i think CL should be the ultimate scripting language once we get all are "read-lines" together 07:47:34 but like we say....we roll our own 07:47:45 totally cool ECL 07:47:56 thanks Papas 07:48:14 all Unix anyway 07:48:28 well....on the server 07:49:08 lhx: do you consider yourself a CL expert? 07:49:22 or anybody that considers themselves a CL expert 07:49:39 shouldn't we have that piping macros --> like clojure 07:49:54 uhhmm..reading inside out sucks 07:50:05 when we do have to 07:50:15 It hath begun. 07:50:17 The troll hath mentioned clojure. 07:50:23 sorry Adlai 07:50:42 no, troll should've brought up F# 07:50:49 > 07:51:17 i'm not a troll 07:51:21 i'll stick with CL 07:51:32 ...on the server 07:51:43 so a like like 07:51:43 no need for my windows on the desktop 07:51:47 oops 07:52:06 i've got 8 servers i manage 07:52:15 i run windows on my desktop 07:52:23 all servers are linux except 1 2003 07:52:46 yes, i will always run windows or OSX 07:52:49 on the desktop 07:53:10 i will never allow a X-server for my servers 07:53:37 bogues: ok, please stop being uninteresting 07:53:40 more horizontal typing, less vertical typing 07:53:43 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:53:55 I have 2 rack mounted servers I manage, all the rest are busted from years back we had. the current ones are an 8U and a 4U, one with hardware raid 5 over LVM and 8 disks, one with software raid 5 under LVM and 6 disks. 07:54:02 Krystof: trust me i can be much more boring 07:54:06 one running BSD and another running Slackware 07:54:06 horizontal typing forces you to form correct sentences and think about what you are saying 07:54:13 "AJAX is the new X anyway" .. Web2.0, and stuff .. but yeah, not very lisp related this :} 07:54:14 server configuration is off topic; please stop it 07:54:27 Because, Slackware is my distro of choice :) 07:54:47 true because you always build your own SBCL from scratch on Linux anyway 07:55:20 Slack...still? 07:55:22 damn bro 07:55:26 i thought Slack died 07:55:37 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 07:55:47 Krystos: fine, kick me 07:56:27 fatalnix1995: you still rolling slack? 07:57:45 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*n=qqqq@*.hsd1.ma.comcast.net 07:57:54 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*@203.97.217.154 07:57:56 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*@67.159.35.76 07:58:00 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*n=mail@156.12.68.* 07:58:26 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*thing@*.customer.cdi.no 07:59:36 Does that mean these people are now banned or that they are now no longer banned? 07:59:51 they are no longer banned 08:00:14 that means i'm banned 08:00:15 the perils of a fixed-length channel ban list 08:00:43 those comcast ips be funky 08:00:53 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!*@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com 08:00:59 Slackware is nice Bogus. 08:01:06 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!*@spirit.ggxmain.com 08:01:17 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:02:37 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:03:10 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has left #lisp 08:03:35 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-99-164-45-53.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:04:15 Immutable7 [n=U521240@78.144.99.158] has joined #lisp 08:07:49 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*@spirit.ggxmain.com 08:08:07 are there any lisps on which lambda-parameters-limit or call-arguments-limit are not fixnums? 08:10:16 fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:58 Adlai, it's a "global constant" anyway .. so your code can check at compile time or even read time then generate decls. that assumes it is a fixnum based on this 08:14:58 lnostdal, true, thanks for reminding me of that. 08:14:58 ..assumes in that no run-time type checking is done .. no or less safety and whatnot 08:15:55 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-1-250.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:16:15 perhaps some compilers already know this :) 08:16:18 morning lispers 08:16:32 is asdf like CPAN for Lisp? 08:17:00 no, it's like make, fatalnix1995 08:17:19 like mvn for java I'd say 08:17:39 oo. PCL hasnt gone over any of this yet. I wonder why.. 08:18:32 lnostdal, I guess I could just declare it as (integer 0 #.lambda-parameters-limit) 08:18:43 fatalnix1995, PCL describes ASDF a bit in the last chapter. 08:18:45 nearly all project around uses asdf, the only thing to keep an eye on is the asdf:test-op 08:19:18 *projects *use 08:19:47 only because it's not used by everyone 08:19:56 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:19:58 Ah, Okay 08:20:09 but I find it very usefull 08:20:13 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:20:50 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 08:26:10 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:36 redblue [i=star@ppp037.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:32:34 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:35:51 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 08:41:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 08:43:11 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:43:37 I wonder what ever happened to the Lice project 08:45:30 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-C2F2E195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 08:54:29 hm, i'm guessing a method with an EQL specializer means no GC --> finalization for the object in question 08:54:31 ? 08:55:26 ..looking at pcos's new filtered method stuff, maybe it is possible to do something similar to solve this 08:59:02 lnostdal, correct, objects that have been eql-specialized won't be GCed 08:59:20 if you combine filtered dispatch with weak references, you could work around this 08:59:54 hmm maybe you'd need a weak hashtable of objects specialized upon, rather than just keeping weak pointers. 09:00:05 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7565e6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:34 yeah, not sure .. *coffee* .... :) 09:01:43 It's not a great solution, though -- even if you could get the objects GCable, the methods wouldn't get GCed. 09:02:42 perhaps the finalization closure could do a remove-method .. but then again that might create a circle --> no GC again 09:02:49 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.18] has joined #lisp 09:04:00 or perhaps we could run our own little GC thread which checks if these methods have any further possible value 09:04:02 oh, that might actually work. 09:04:15 ..dunno.. 09:04:31 the former suggestion -- ie, using finalizers. 09:05:15 be careful though, because finalizers might run in another thread 09:05:28 yeah, fun 09:06:40 you could make a subclass of filtered-function -- locked-filtered-function -- where each function would have a lock, and you'd acquire it around dispatch and in the finalizers for that function. 09:09:44 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:11:56 i think the GC will resolve most of those problems before they even happen .. just making the call (extracting the object out of something, first) in the first place implies that the object is alive and will now stay so until the end of the full method call/combination thing 09:12:07 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:30 AFAICT 09:12:36 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:13:07 be careful, one method might run while a different one gets removed in another thread, if they're "weakly specialized" on different objects 09:14:17 won't the object in question be lexically bound in the running method? .. ok, no, i don't want to think about this now :P 09:14:30 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:14:31 yes, but that's not the problem 09:15:06 you have function FOO, objects A and B 09:15:22 oh yeah mean two specializers? 09:15:29 method mA is specialized on A and a finalizer on A removes it when A is collected, and same for mB and B 09:15:47 s/yeah/you 09:15:49 theoretically, A could get collected while mB was running, causing mA to get removed while mB is running 09:16:32 at which point you'd have to pray that your MOP is thread safe... which it probably isn't :| 09:16:48 actually, when you're running the effective method, you should be alright 09:17:27 I'd be more worried about threadsafety while computing the effective method, but fortunately that's a relatively rare event 09:17:41 oh true 09:17:52 and there's potential to do atomic effective-method computation; see a cll post from Bruno Haible about 7 years ago 09:17:55 could you hold a lock around the computation? 09:18:06 that would be painful 09:18:46 that potentially means a taking a lock on all generic function calls, because you don't know when you start whether you or someone else'll be needing to compute the emf 09:19:22 nunb_ [n=nundan@94.160.187.87] has joined #lisp 09:19:28 (I think) 09:19:28 -!- nunb_ [n=nundan@94.160.187.87] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:19:33 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 09:19:50 nunb [n=nundan@94.160.187.87] has joined #lisp 09:19:55 in an implementation that caches the EMFs, wouldn't the locking be infrequent? 09:20:25 -!- bogues [n=bogues@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 09:20:34 hmm, I think I found Bruno Haible's post 09:20:54 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:24:53 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:24:56 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-118-177-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:25:36 http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2005-06/msg01120.html 09:26:04 -!- MoALTz [n=heh@92.23.144.26] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:27:54 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:59 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-235-152-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:39:05 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:41:02 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:42:03 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:40 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:54 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 09:42:59 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:44:01 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:44:53 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-77-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:45:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/91628 .. some sort of motivation, but perhaps it's not worth it and some other way of doing stuff like this is better/easier 09:45:38 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:04 <_3b> if you don't need interesting dispatch, seems like just dumping lambdas in a hash table would be easier 09:49:43 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 09:52:07 Weak references might make that less insane. 09:57:38 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:01:36 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:08:48 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:13:31 yeah, with a background thread iterating over the pointers once in a while doing remove-method, perhaps ..or something 10:17:51 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-229-37-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 10:24:49 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-229-37-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:11 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-229-37-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 10:26:39 meh .. a viewport should govern lifetime for these anyway 10:27:38 ..or be involved in cleanup; when the viewport is gone, it'll handle the widgets + connected methods it has seen 10:28:53 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:29:27 is it possible to tell sbcl when compiling a function to not use any registers for the arguments? 10:30:27 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:30:44 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 10:31:19 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:33:37 _8david` [n=user@pD9541FC5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:35:24 -!- _8david [n=user@pD9541171.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:35:24 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:38:03 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169480.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:21 Adlai: that's right; the really painful bit is that it's not enough to lock the generic function in the miss case; you also have to lock the class hierarchy and all the applicable mop generic function 10:39:16 YuleAthas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 10:39:50 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-192.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 10:41:30 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:41:45 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:42:24 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 10:43:56 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:48:05 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:48:43 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:49:41 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:50:09 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 10:50:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:52:02 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:53:07 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:53:25 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:54:48 cow-orker [n=user@c541745C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 10:55:25 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-115-213.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:55:55 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:56:18 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:57:03 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:59:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/91628#1 *shrug* .. then an add-method :after to register the widgets and their associated methods, or so .. heh, gc, finalization, weakness etc. is really quite cool .. well, i think so anyway :P 11:01:05 that looks like a solution in search of a problem 11:01:58 ups, missed some details while pasting .. yeah, you might be right, tcr 11:02:31 and I think finalizers are brittle regarding future maintainability 11:03:40 oh i'm all ok with "experimental" 11:03:47 ..if that was what you meant 11:03:52 for example, if you ever extend viewports such that they contain either direct or indirect links to your button class -- the viewport won't ever be collected 11:04:15 nipra [n=nipra@123.238.241.4] has joined #lisp 11:04:29 because the viewport's finalizer references the viewport 11:05:28 And now you have a ressource leak after all you did was extending some class (which may not even have anything directly to do with viewports or buttons) 11:06:21 I hope it makes sense what I'm saying -- that's the conclusion I came to after I pondered using finalizers at work last week 11:06:47 yeah, i understand the problems .. i use weak hash tables to avoid things like these 11:07:54 (..each viewport has only a single hard link to the widget tree it presents; the root node..) 11:08:58 (..and there are some other issues wrt. events, also..) 11:09:01 my point is that it may be ok NOW but it's a question whether it'll stay that way 11:09:12 yeah 11:13:27 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-114-32.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:14:28 it pretty much applies to GC and resource handling in general though, i think .. i mean; it's pretty much impossible to guarantee against an user extending things in a "wrong way" in that he chooses to _store_ direct references to widget instances, instead of their ids (id-string --weak-hash-table --> widget) and further does nothing to remove references later ..can't really do anything about that .. it applies to FDs, sockets and pointers and stuff 11:14:28 too i guess 11:18:05 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:18:06 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 11:19:07 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 11:28:10 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6BF9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:15 but this might just be me getting all excited by seeing some cool pcos CLOS code and getting weird/dumb ideas, yeah .. x) 11:29:34 it leads to interesting bugs for Krystof to play with though ... :) 11:30:23 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 11:30:53 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229177076.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:34:06 lnostdal: you can type-check at storage-time 11:40:01 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:12 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:05 Plamen [n=pkfrey@62-167-243-187.static.adslpremium.ch] has joined #lisp 11:41:57 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:43:56 hm, you mean the data later to be iterated through? .. yeah, don't want trouble in a finalization function 11:44:20 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:44:22 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:45:10 envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:47:47 hi all. any elephant/cffi/uffi/bdb-guru online? :) 11:50:41 moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-189-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:09 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:53:24 aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:23 -!- ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@fritz.lysator.liu.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:00:25 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-192.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:00:26 geekles [n=smh@CPE-65-27-73-151.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:48 Joreji [n=thomas@45-242.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:04:55 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-145.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 12:05:23 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest75832 12:06:33 -!- envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:08:15 -!- Guest75832 is now known as Kenjin 12:12:32 ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@fritz.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 12:12:34 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:16:52 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 12:19:26 G'morning all. 12:26:26 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:59 technically 12:29:53 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:30:25 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:30:28 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:30:46 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:31:23 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:31:37 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:40:25 borism [n=boris@213-35-235-152-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:46:30 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 12:48:16 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A3BAE.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:13 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:53:54 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:54:47 msingh [n=msingh@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:56:54 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:58:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:00:32 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:44 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:05:16 -!- sp0_of [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06:32 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-225.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:06:50 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 13:07:14 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:02 hello nyef 13:16:25 Plamen: You might have better luck if you just ask your question. 13:17:25 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-79-113.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:25:04 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:25:22 benny [n=benny@i577A19A2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:29:09 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-113-4.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:29:40 davazp [n=user@254.Red-83-52-41.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:45 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-216-235.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:14 Okay, I'm definately generating my data correctly, I can dump a PGM of it. But if I try to throw it straight into an X window, it comes up white. :-/ 13:32:18 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:52 through clx? how big is the image? IIRC clx crapping out on really large images, at least through whichever path I go through 13:33:22 (where "really large" is, unfortunately, less than a typical modern display resolution) 13:33:26 I've tried it with a 1706x32 and a 3415x16 image. 13:33:56 Sounds like I should start smaller, and possibly from first principles. 13:34:17 I'd try something smaller than that as a sanity check 13:36:28 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-145.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:40:06 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-229-37-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:40:10 ty beach - saw your answer a bit late - already posted at the elephant-ng.. ty anyway! 13:40:21 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:40:59 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@246-70.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 13:41:07 just - hoped - here i could get lucky and receive some more realtime support :) 13:41:08 davazp` [n=user@131.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:25 -!- davazp [n=user@254.Red-83-52-41.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:41:33 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest14414 13:42:41 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:43:29 ok, here it is : 13:43:34 Hello, 13:43:35 I need to use BDB for my current application and from what I see on 13:43:35 the net, elephant seems to be the most mature and functional solution. 13:43:35 After following the installation instructions (I use LispWorks 5.1.2 13:43:35 for Windows - yes - I need that configuration at the moment, with 13:43:35 Berkeley DB 4.5.20, with prebuild DLLs (libberkeley-db.dll and 13:43:35 -!- Plamen [n=pkfrey@62-167-243-187.static.adslpremium.ch] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:43:43 Plamen [n=pkfrey@62-167-243-187.static.adslpremium.ch] has joined #lisp 13:43:44 nice. 13:44:06 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:45:29 P.S. the elephant version I use is the newest from the repository - I already tried with older or stable ones - but - with the same effect. 13:45:33 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6BF9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 13:49:37 -!- davazp` [n=user@131.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:53:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/91636 .. afaict it looks like remove-method does not free references in eql-specialized methods 13:53:18 Ahh... A match-error. 13:54:23 demmeln1 [n=Adium@129.187.176.158] has joined #lisp 14:02:31 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:06:38 And there we go, actual output. Corrupted output, but that's due to how I'm prepping the pixarray. 14:06:46 is there a way to make the minibuffer at the bottom of emacs where the function/struct description appears, bigger, or indeed is there a way to just expand when the function/struct description is too large 14:07:05 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:09:05 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-113-4.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:09:08 -!- geekles [n=smh@CPE-65-27-73-151.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:06 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp037.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:13:30 Guthur: It's clearly -possible-, as if you do a M-! echo -e "\n" the minibuffer grows by a line until you hit a key. 14:14:05 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 14:14:47 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:46 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:16:10 nyef never, well you never know there may be something that emacs doesn't do, hehe 14:18:03 never/cheers 14:20:58 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:21:04 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:12 Guthur: Perhaps you're looking for (setq slime-autodoc-use-multiline-p t) ? 14:21:23 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06fe9f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:24 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-73-147.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:21:25 hello 14:21:59 tcr that sound very promising, thanks 14:26:02 i suppose (defvar *eql-specializer-table* (make-hash-table :test 'eql)) @ line 578 in src/pcl/defs.lisp is the culprit; it is a strongly linked hash-table 14:26:48 prxq [n=mommer@e176244210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:57 hi 14:27:03 <_deepfire> Ooh, (cond ((values 1 2))) => 1 14:27:18 <_deepfire> This is catastrophe. 14:27:30 _deepfire: Catastrophe? Really? 14:27:32 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.18] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:53 That if you use a short COND clause like that it only returns the primary value? 14:28:52 <_deepfire> nyef, this was to illustrate that you cannot propagate multiple values from computation of condition to return values. 14:29:47 Note that (cond (3 (values 1 2))) => 1, 2 14:29:55 <_deepfire> Absolutely, yes. 14:30:27 <_deepfire> But I don't want to repeat computation of the condition.. 14:30:38 Well, it wouldn't be hard to define a custom COND which tested its forms via multiple-value-list and then checked the primary value for truth. 14:31:02 Or use a block + return-from. 14:33:19 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:35:33 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:37:03 Guthur pasted "did miss something.." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91640 14:37:19 surely is that not what you wanted ? 14:37:44 _deepfire ^ 14:38:53 oops no never mind 14:39:16 should have tested that more 14:39:36 Yeah, something seemed more than a little off about it. 14:39:55 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:00 It's probably safe to assume that the cond is the result form for a function whose caller will be m-v-b'ing. 14:41:19 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-185-187.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:16 TR2N [n=email@89-180-213-219.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 14:43:37 jmbr [n=jmbr@19.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:44:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:45:59 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:17 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:47:07 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 14:48:44 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:50:28 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-73-147.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:51:09 <_deepfire> nyef, almost -- not a function, but a highly separate part of the same function. 14:51:48 Yeah, but it's still the same sort of idea. It's in a context where you're m-v-b'ing the result. 14:52:13 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:18 <_deepfire> Right.. 14:52:30 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:54:00 <_deepfire> As you suggested, I just return from the condition form. The block is already there even, implicitly established by ITER. 14:54:36 Ah, good. So I don't need to hack up an mv-cond macro? 14:58:54 -!- demmeln1 [n=Adium@129.187.176.158] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:59:22 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:00:09 <_deepfire> nyef, no, no! Thanks :-) 15:00:28 <_deepfire> I can post the thing if anyone feels like criticizing :-) 15:00:49 _deepfire pasted "if anyone feels like criticising.." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91642 15:01:46 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:13 <_deepfire> It's really a part of an UI-ish heuristics component. 15:02:39 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:03:13 I'd question your use of COND in that context, except that it makes some amount of rhetorical/expositional sense. 15:04:25 ... Why are you doing (compute-umbrellised-remove-path r) twice? 15:06:00 rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:12 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 15:06:46 <_deepfire> nyef, cut and paste error :-) 15:06:49 _deepfire: as there does not come a cond clause after, you can just test on domain-name-takeover, and move the let in the clause's body? 15:08:09 ... Are you sure that's returning where you said it was returning? 15:08:14 <_deepfire> tcr, bingo! 15:08:19 <_deepfire> Thanks folks! 15:08:50 Those RETURNs return from the DOLIST, not the ITER. 15:09:23 _deepfire: instead of dolist + when + return, I'd rather use SOME 15:09:41 and I don't see the need for ITER, as you're just traversing the list? 15:09:44 We seem to be working this from the inside out. 15:10:15 HG` [n=HG@xdslec090.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:17 nyef: sure because initially it was about cond :-) 15:11:15 <_deepfire> Ouch, DOLIST really caught me. 15:12:20 -!- Guest14414 [n=Kenjin@246-70.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:12:56 <_deepfire> tcr, the ITER was for the implicit block, /and/ I evidently didn't know that DOLIST establishes one :-) 15:14:03 you shouldn't need one 15:14:21 (loop for remote-variant in variants thereis (some ....)) 15:15:17 geekles [n=smh@CPE-65-27-73-151.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:12 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:44 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-45.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:17:05 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@246-206.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 15:17:34 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest68499 15:17:37 _deepfire: Perhaps the "parsed components of the url" should come in a structure? 15:19:30 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:27 <_deepfire> tcr, the flow of parsed components is non-trivial here, things join and part ways.. a structure probably would invite some false assumptions and would maybe more stand in the way than help 15:20:42 <_deepfire> tcr, but I definitely see your point 15:20:54 <_deepfire> It's just that this code hasn't entirely settled yet 15:21:05 <_deepfire> It's ugly heuristics, as you might see.. 15:21:17 no idea what the code does :-) 15:21:36 I actually like structures to write assumptions down explicitly 15:21:46 by :type'ing the slots 15:22:10 <_deepfire> Basically, the user enters an URL and I need to figure out what terms in my domain space this URL refers to. 15:22:47 the code looks quite complex comparing to how easy that task sounds :-) 15:24:30 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:25:12 also remember that structures support single-inheritance; perhaps that can be made use of to reflect different parsing states 15:26:36 _deepfire annotated #91642 "distributor with remotes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91642#1 15:27:16 <_deepfire> tcr, the problem is, I match against highly-structured data, and I accept as arbitrary input as I can, to provide maximum automagic experience to the end-user. 15:28:51 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:58 oh I forgot to remove the hyperspec-lookup dependencies from hyperdoc 15:30:38 *_deepfire* does automatic dependency resolution, no need for maintenance 15:33:12 <_deepfire> Having said that, this code could have been better, indeed. 15:34:03 <_deepfire> The dolist really caught me, would have been a PITA do debug, thank you! 15:35:50 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32E98C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:23 <_deepfire> At some point I looked at PURI, to see if I could use that to parse and represent URLs, but it proved to be quite lacking (easy to confuse, not supporting URI credentials), and I didn't feel like I could motivate myself to fix it. 15:37:31 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:37:47 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 15:38:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:38:52 <_deepfire> s/fix it/fit to my needs/, as it probably works just fine for some constrained set of inputs. 15:39:23 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:40:17 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-125-176.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:40:30 <_deepfire> By the way, (loop :for x :in '(1 2 3) :thereis (values x x)) => 1 15:42:38 -!- geekles [n=smh@CPE-65-27-73-151.new.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:43:07 <_deepfire> My god, (some (lambda (x) (values x x)) '(1 2 3)) => 1 15:43:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:42 <_deepfire> Multiple values in CL are.. ahem.. not as pervasive as the intuition might suggest. 15:44:30 _deepfire: Is that what the spec says it should return? 15:44:58 <_deepfire> beach, not sure, I just followed an advice. 15:45:15 <_deepfire> Let me look it up, though. 15:46:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:05 <_deepfire> Yes, "some returns the first non-nil value which is returned by an invocation of predicate" 15:49:23 can i specialise a method from one package in another package? 15:49:44 Guthur: Of course. Packages are orthogonal to methods. 15:49:48 <_deepfire> Guthur, methods don't reside in packages, their names do. 15:50:09 _deepfire: er, the names of the corresponding generic function. 15:50:13 do i have to specify the package in the defmethod declaration? 15:50:21 <_deepfire> beach, yes 15:50:24 Guthur: you have to specify the right symbol. 15:50:31 Guthur: Not if you imported the symbol from that other package. 15:50:44 mine reads "as soon as any invocation of *predicate* returns a non-nil value: some returns that value" 15:50:55 beach: ya thats what i'll do 15:50:57 cheers guys 15:51:11 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:16 btw, I was surprised to find Börje Langefors is still alive. 15:51:55 <_deepfire> Lycurgus, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm#some is where I looked 15:52:05 c|mell [n=cmell@dialbs-092-079-133-213.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:24 triyo [n=triyo@dsl-245-149-201.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:52:27 prolly more up to date, used my ancient CLTL 15:53:04 <_deepfire> I guessed that :-) 15:53:10 Is there a way to configure slime to enable me to run multiple lisp implementations? 15:53:18 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:33 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:35 ah i can do (defmethod package:method ...) sorry I should have checked 15:53:50 <_deepfire> triyo, yes, but you would probably need the right people to pop up to explain how. 15:54:00 Guthur: Of course you can. 15:54:48 _deepfire: exactly what I thought.. I came across something like: (add-to-list 'slime-lisp-implementations '(sbcl ("sbcl"))) 15:54:51 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.30] has joined #lisp 15:54:57 but that doesn't seem to be enough 15:55:05 _deepfire: It is unclear what the "first" refers to. I don't read that as "the first in a sequence of multiple values". 15:55:51 Guthur: I thought that's what you meant when you said "do i have to specify the package in the defmethod declaration?". 15:55:55 triyo: I'll paste in a query 15:56:09 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 15:56:35 beach, indeed i should have just tried it instead of making noise, hehe 15:57:12 tcr: thx. Is that all I have to do or are there additional steps? 15:57:20 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-24-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:58:05 <_deepfire> beach, to me that phrase sounds unsatisfactorily clear, indeed. 15:58:16 triyo, look at http://bc.tech.coop/blog/081209.html - there are also some example emacs configuration files for different lisp implementations. 15:59:09 triyo: if you directly borrow from me you should also (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) 15:59:24 and also select a default implementation: (setf slime-default-lisp 'sbcl-cvs) 15:59:25 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:58 That's the implementation used when you M-x slime; when you want to use another implementation, you'd use M-- M-x slime 16:00:25 -!- Plamen [n=pkfrey@62-167-243-187.static.adslpremium.ch] has quit [] 16:00:27 tcr: great I'll give that a try 16:00:35 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:37 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:44 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:00:59 at this point, why doesn't it default to utf-8? 16:01:17 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:35 <_deepfire> beach, I didn't expect it to read the way which looked implausible to you, by the way. 16:01:40 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-5-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:02:19 _deepfire: Under normal circumstances I would not have read it that way, but since we were talking multiple values it occurred to me. 16:03:21 Has anyone ever taken a look at rahul's defprotocol? 16:06:15 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:27 davazp [n=user@51.Red-79-154-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:26 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.180.137] has joined #lisp 16:13:29 demmeln [n=Adium@e135.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:16:34 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:17:45 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 16:18:48 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:21:06 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslec090.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:21:51 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 16:22:52 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #lisp 16:23:54 tcr: sounds interesting; got a link? 16:24:12 it's probably in his rjutils repo 16:24:51 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 16:25:08 on github? 16:25:59 no sourceforge or c-l.net in some cvs repo 16:27:50 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 16:29:24 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:30:10 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:30:21 raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 16:31:56 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:32:21 -!- nipra [n=nipra@123.238.241.4] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:32:45 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@dialbs-092-079-133-213.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:03 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:33:23 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:14 from one package i am trying to run a function and pass an instance to it, both from another package, it complains that one of the make functions is undefined 16:35:13 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-125-176.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:15 its hard to paste code because there is alot but this is the call -> (wumpus-world::run-environment (wumpus-world::make-wumpus-world)) 16:35:28 tcr: any links? 16:36:17 i gives the error The function MAKE-AIMLESS-WUMPUS-AGENT is undefined. 16:36:32 of course it works fine when i am in package wumpus-world 16:39:25 Guthur: did you call my-package::make-aimless-wumpus-agent, or wumpus-world::make-aimless-wumpus-agent? 16:39:41 I think it's an internal error, pkhuong 16:40:26 tcr: I think Guthur defined his own method on another package's gf. 16:41:15 Ok that makes sense because the symbol is not qualified in the error message 16:42:40 pkhuong, i doesn't even get to my method 16:43:00 according to the trace back 16:43:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:43:19 i/it 16:43:58 make-aimless-wumpus-agent should get create during make-wumpus-world 16:45:24 i'll paste the trace back, its strange make-aimless-wumpus-agent is qualified in one portion but not another 16:45:37 jedbrown [n=jed@vawpc43.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 16:46:45 ... "wumpus-world" and agents? 16:46:57 Guthur pasted "trace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91651 16:47:18 nyef its from AIMA 16:47:24 Ahh. 16:47:33 *nyef* still hasn't gotten a copy of AIMA. 16:47:56 Clearly, though, I do need to give it a read, especially now that I've garnered some more mathematical sophistication. 16:48:41 What's this AIMA? 16:48:52 i've only skimmed it tbh, i got this code from the web, trying to integrate it into a uni project 16:49:02 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@e135.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:10 looks like there's a call to INTERN/FIND-SYMBOL somewhere. 16:49:32 Artificial Intelligence A Modern Approach, by Peter Norvig 16:49:36 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:39 oh! thanks, Guthur 16:50:16 You need to be in the WUMPUS-WORLD package around the call to RUN-ENVIRONMENT. 16:50:17 pkhuong, k i'll grep 16:50:34 ah i was thinking of doing that 16:51:05 so just go in, call, and then go back to my other package 16:53:02 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:09 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:58 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:55:44 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:56:40 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:58:09 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-118.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 16:58:22 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 16:58:36 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest32897 17:00:16 -!- bgs100 is now known as everything 17:00:35 -!- davazp [n=user@51.Red-79-154-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:57 davazp [n=user@156.Red-83-52-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:25 -!- triyo [n=triyo@dsl-245-149-201.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [] 17:01:28 Guthur: bind *package*. 17:01:40 -!- everything is now known as notanything 17:04:14 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:04:24 -!- Guest68499 [n=Kenjin@246-206.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:04:39 -!- notanything is now known as every-thing 17:05:00 Plamen [n=pkfrey@194-158-251-71.static.adslpremium.ch] has joined #lisp 17:05:06 pkhuong: bind? 17:05:37 Guthur: (let ((*package* )) ...) 17:06:02 Guthur: That is called binding a variable. 17:06:19 ah ok, thanks 17:06:45 Guthur: I suggest you look in the CLHS glossary. 17:07:15 i know about bind variable, but i didn't realise thats what he meant 17:07:24 i was looking at package specific stuff 17:10:16 ah *package* is a special variable, i did not know that 17:15:51 bye 17:16:02 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06fe9f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["feiern"] 17:16:44 Guthur: Actually it's a special special variable [sic] 17:17:05 as it's a file-local special variable :-) 17:17:49 file-local is putting it a bit strongly... 17:18:20 ya it has me thinking that it only applies to code within the file i make the binding 17:18:21 uh, yeah. 17:18:31 *package* is not magic 17:18:50 It's just bound around the actual action of LOAD or COMPILE-FILE. 17:19:06 c|mell [n=cmell@p5099b4c2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:50 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32E98C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:59 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:11 -!- every-thing is now known as bgs100 17:22:23 makes it pretty file-local 17:22:24 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:00 I've wondered what to call these if an implementation wants to allow users to define more like them 17:24:28 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:47 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24:47 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:56 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:55 hehe whatever it is called it worked very well, thanks pkhuong, and beach for the clarification 17:28:24 oh intel cancelled a consumer launch of larrabee if anyone cares 17:33:58 -!- envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:34:21 *Lycurgus* finds that he did care but only insofar as he was appraised of industry activity in that area from the wiki article on "Larrabee". 17:36:33 p0a [n=user@athedsl-386896.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:36:44 Hello I'm looking at http://www.cliki.net/Music 17:37:03 sounds a little like a way to give themselves a lot more time, their initial estimates were way off with regard to getting a consumer GFX solution released from larrabee tech, from the news that's what it seems like anyway 17:37:04 I want a package that allows me to play music (not music files). 17:37:17 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 17:37:36 Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:43 without volume, the hardware likely won't be cost effective. 17:41:22 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:34 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-102.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:43:11 cl-fmod? I'm not looking to make my own project so I don't care about the licence 17:43:26 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-68-181.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:43:26 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:43:32 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:37 bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:35 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-386896.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["leaving"] 17:54:11 hmph. 17:54:24 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-68-181.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:00 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-225.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:08 Guthur: you didn't realize that *foo* was special? 17:59:10 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-77-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:05 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:10 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:27 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:02:43 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:04:05 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:08:25 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.10] has joined #lisp 18:08:29 -!- bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:02 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 18:10:22 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 18:12:00 Guthur: to me, larrabee fate reminds me a little of IA-64, with less screwups 18:15:34 I was looking forward to having a new contender in the GPU market 18:16:01 one not tied at the hardware level to a specific two graphics APIs, too 18:16:17 Tied at the hardware level? 18:17:04 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:09 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 18:17:23 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-1-250.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:19:08 Ralith: afaik none of the new chips are tied at hw level to any API, especially not since introduction of vertex and pixel shaders on bigger scale 18:19:41 I see its cores can be used for parallelization 18:19:45 p_l: are they sufficiently open that I can install my own graphics API in place of them? 18:19:56 p_l: if not, then they might as well be tied to the hardware. 18:20:23 Osaka [n=yuki@pool-71-101-98-15.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:30 any good lisp solutions for parallel programming (except thread libs)? 18:21:30 amaron: what would such a solution provide? 18:21:52 Ralith: the hw primitives would have to stay the same (textures, triangles & derived geometry objects) and some extra stuff (especially regarding display control etc.), the rest you can implement in shaders (there are even benchmarks that do the whole rendering with shaders) 18:22:11 pkhuong: MPI/PVM? 18:22:12 Ralith: with AMD, probably. If you have the resources to develop your own drivers, getting the spec to open up shouldn't be an issue. 18:22:18 pkhuong, something similar to haskell's data parallelization 18:22:22 p_l: there are bindings to MPI. 18:23:04 p_l: that sounds an awful lot like an ugly contortion to fit through a technicality. 18:23:06 amaron: I can't think of an all-encompassing library. Several people have written the parallel map, or futures they needed. 18:23:24 pkhuong: interesting; I hear that they're dragging their feet on spec releases, though. 18:23:45 Ralith: it's a moot point anyway. 18:23:52 hefner pasted "code for tic" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91656 18:24:15 pkhuong: hm? 18:24:17 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-237-98.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:24:26 -!- Guest32897 [n=Kenjin@242-118.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:24:33 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:24:45 Ralith: Big parts of OpenGL and DirectX are implemented through shaders 18:25:07 Even GeForce 3 no longer had Transform & Lightning in hw 18:25:20 p_l: okay. 18:26:02 Ralith: moot, since neither you nor anyone here is ever going to develop another stack on their own. 18:26:43 pkhuong: :P 18:26:53 a third party might, and that could well be fun software to play with. 18:27:38 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p5099b4c2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:28:11 Thanks, hefner! 18:28:11 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e176244210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:12 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:42 davazp` [n=user@146.Red-83-57-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:00 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:29:12 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-122.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 18:29:35 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:29:40 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest65315 18:29:41 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:13 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:31 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:30:55 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 18:33:58 -!- Osaka [n=yuki@pool-71-101-98-15.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:34:46 -!- koning_r1bot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:34 Ralith: it's bad enough situation with ~5 stacks in use already :P 18:35:55 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.215.246] has joined #lisp 18:36:46 (even if most of them are related) 18:37:40 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 18:38:04 p_l: 5? wat? 18:38:40 unless you're counting Mesa and a few similar pieces of software as "not OpenGL" 18:39:05 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-118-177-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:41 -!- Immutable7 [n=U521240@78.144.99.158] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:16 Ralith: mainline OpenGL, OpenGL ES, mainline DirectX and it's mobile variant (not sure how different XBox is), OpenCL counts as it can generate images (you just don't have output control, but you migh always blit them to framebuffer), dunno about CTM, 18:41:03 I just hope that somewhere, out there, there isn't a PHIGS app still in production -_-; 18:41:30 woah, I was trying to figure out a way yesterday to cleanly displatch methods based on integer range of one its slot values, (i.e call method1 if slot-a has a value of 1-15, call method2 if slot-a has a value of 10-15) and today i wake up to discover filtered-functions. Works out awfully well for me. 18:41:48 i believe xbox has directx 9 with a few added niceties 18:41:49 p_l: that's a lot of hairsplitting :P 18:42:24 mcspiff: that's trivial without filtered-functions, it just requires a layer of indirection. It's something of a CLOS design pattern. 18:42:36 hefner: o really? 18:42:43 yah rly 18:42:57 hefner: I can haz example? 18:43:20 Ralith: OpenGL ES looks similar to OpenGL, but I heard it's quite different in actual implementation... pity that the plans for OpenGL 3 were scrapped 18:43:22 actually, an integer range is a bad example, because there's no way to do that with a vanilla CLOS specializer 18:43:49 p_l: haven't they been largely restored now in 3.2? 18:44:00 Ralith: oh, and don't forget Java3D, which doesn't necessarily run on top of GL/DirectX 18:44:10 nobody does any serious 3D on java >_> 18:44:25 -!- davazp [n=user@156.Red-83-52-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:30 hefner: well, I wouldn't mind seeing one even for a simplier case, dispatching on the value of a slot value 18:44:56 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:45:47 mcspiff: (defun foo (x y) (foo-dispatch x (slot-value 'bar x) y)) where foo-dispatch is the actual gf 18:46:03 wmannis [n=wmannis@76.201.154.141] has joined #lisp 18:46:03 mcspiff: redefining the problem as "specializing on a slot of an argument" as filtered-functions advertises, you just need to make the slot value an argument you can specialize on. So you have a regular defun with the arglist you want which extracts the slot value and passes it as an additional argument to the generic function, so the methods can specialize on it 18:46:27 I don't think there's a general naming convention; is there one in mcclim? 18:46:37 I must learn tcr's concise ways. 18:46:40 foo-using-var perhaps 18:46:48 foo-using-bar, I mean 18:47:53 tcr: ah ok, that's essentially what I came up with, using a defun to extract the values and then dispatch with a gf from there. Still, filtered functions capture that pattern in a nicer way, from my reading of the paper 18:48:03 out of curiosity 18:48:13 nicer, in a hoop-jumping sort of way 18:48:17 is there a clean way to add a new type of specializer? 18:48:59 Ralith: not sure about 3.2 api... 3.0 was at one point promised to use functional-style interface, so you could use it safely in multithreading for most operations 18:49:02 ask Xof. 18:49:02 Ralith: Not portably :-) 18:49:14 Ralith: I have often desired such a thing myself! As it is, I use EQL specializers a lot in my code. 18:49:15 hefner: well, I just like the fact that I can use normal dispatch for classes foo and bar, and predicate displatch for baz, all from the same generic function. 18:49:22 tcr: portably with standard wrappers? 18:49:31 clim queue 18:49:32 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for queue. 18:49:35 Ah, damn. 18:49:47 I only know of Xof's work, Ralith. I actually have no idea how much unportability it involes 18:49:49 involes* 18:49:52 wmannis: it indeed seems like a handy thing to have. 18:49:54 tcr: okay. 18:50:49 mcspiff: I'm not sure it's a good thing to pack everything into one named entity 18:50:55 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:55 Ralith: also, have another: M3G (Mobile 3D Graphics) api used from java on mobile devices 18:51:17 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:51:31 if swank is telling me that it has some unimplemented Swank interfaces, how can I go about getting them? (E.g., I just installed slime, I'm using cygwin, and when I start slime, I'm told that find-source-location isn't implemented. I really would like to be able to use that interface...) 18:51:32 p_l you have too many toys, hehe 18:51:33 I note that you're not covering Mesa and Gallium3d or whatever they're called. 18:51:52 Mesa is an implementation of the opengl spec 18:51:56 nyef: mesa is OpenGL-minus-trademark :P 18:52:26 Fair enough. 18:52:38 nyef: Mesa is OpenGL implementation 18:53:29 nyef: I didn't include individual implementations :) 18:54:11 bfein: It means that the swank backend of your implementation does not define it 18:54:15 tcr: I'm not aware of a naming convention 18:54:19 tcr: I like it for my use case. Its a simple game, where I have a user class. User "levels" up based on experience. At certain level ranges, they have access to different behaviors. Being able to dispatch on that level range removes a bunch of book keeping code for me 18:55:10 mcspiff: Sounds more like you want layers and contextl 18:55:19 mcspiff: change-class. 18:55:24 sounds like he wants COND 18:56:39 hefner: Actually I think layers may come handy there because then you can group together all stuff pertaining to a level 18:56:58 Ralith: you could also add RenderMan to the "3D graphic API" list :P 18:57:09 p_l: now that's def. cheating :P 18:58:04 Ralith: not really, nothing stops you from implementing it in hardware 18:58:14 actually, I think there was one card that would fit 18:58:16 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:49 geekles [n=smh@65.27.73.151] has joined #lisp 19:00:07 -!- Guest65315 is now known as Kenjin 19:00:10 -!- jimi_hendrix [n=jimi_hen@unaffiliated/jimihendrix] has quit ["bbl"] 19:00:26 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:00:55 Okay, so you can obtain the event queue for a sheet with sheet-event-queue, but it's spectacularly useless to do so because there are no defined operations on the queue. 19:01:05 All of the operations are defined on the sheet instead. 19:03:42 the event queue functions probably are not exported 19:04:01 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:24 clim event-queue-peek 19:04:27 clim event-queue-peek 19:04:27 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for event-queue-peek. 19:04:54 clim event-peek 19:04:54 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/8-1.html#_312 19:05:03 Defined in terms of client &optional event-type. 19:05:17 And client is defined elsewhere to be a sheet. 19:05:26 I imagine the reason for defining them on the sheets is that the event queue isn't necessarily per-sheet 19:05:56 There's no setter for the queue, though. 19:06:06 why would you want to do that? 19:06:25 So that multiple sheets can share a queue? 19:07:00 They already do, a whole application-frame and its sheets share one queue. 19:07:34 In McCLIM, at least. 19:08:40 Yeah, I was wondering where in the standard I missed that. 19:08:45 -!- geekles [n=smh@65.27.73.151] has quit ["leaving"] 19:09:20 I think the standard leaves it up to the implementation, but I haven't lawyered my way through that section. 19:09:50 But... which -section-? 19:10:33 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@45-242.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:10:55 clim 8.1 19:10:55 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 8.1. 19:11:12 Ah, input protocol again. 19:11:18 geekles [n=smh@65.27.73.151] has joined #lisp 19:13:33 It says nothing about the possibility of a shared queue. 19:13:47 It says nothing about the impossibility of a shared queue. What's the problem? 19:15:06 That there's no real point to the existence of sheet-event-queue as a function. 19:15:32 anyone know why an idle lisp might beep at me and emit "Arithmetic error: Floor 0.5" or something like that? (Its gone now) 19:15:42 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:46 (emit in the slime message area) 19:15:52 bfein_: Background task stuff? 19:16:14 I just started slime, and the only thing I had done was compile asdf 19:16:23 that had finished 30 seconds or so before I got the error 19:16:26 -!- bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:04 nyef: sure, but by that logic there's no point in sheet-mirror or sheet-direct-mirror, yet I've used them. 19:18:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:34 ah, 'timer-relative-time: Arithmetic error: "floor", 0.5' is sitting in *Messages*... anything I should be concerned about? (E.g., is there something I should look into, as this may indicate my setup has issues?) 19:19:55 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:08 No, there's an explicit point to those, they're "a reference to a window system object", and they're specifically for escaping to direct manipulation via the underlying toolkit for a port. 19:20:24 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:20:38 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:21:09 They're essentially saying "you are expected to want to use this at times, here you go". 19:22:03 Okay, you win. There's no point to sheet-event-queue except as an internal function. I shall request it be expunged from the next revision of the CLIM 2 specification. 19:22:16 Oh well, I'll just chalk it up to an implementation escape with insufficient justification. 19:22:32 Heh. 19:23:42 bfein: What emacs version, and you should post to the slime mailing list with a backtrace 19:23:53 bfein: To obtain a backtrace, M-x toggle-debug-on-error 19:25:49 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-227-23.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:26:38 tcr: 21.2.1 running under Cygwin 19:26:42 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:48 it hasn't happened again, but I'll toggle debugging 19:27:41 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-24-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:51 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-24-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:29:03 well you should do whatever you did 19:29:09 possibly in a new emacs instance 19:29:11 Hunh. An awful lot of stuff is supposed to be happening in the context of the per-port message-handling thread. 19:29:34 bfein: 21.2.1 is pretty old; it's probably some code which makes assumption which only valid for later versions 19:30:10 ah 19:31:48 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:33:15 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:34:46 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:50 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:36:53 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:56 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:02 nyef: I think the idea is that native gadgets might be coupled to the window system in unholy ways (as they seem to be, everywhere that isn't X11) and need to do their processing in that thread 19:39:15 I'm actually thinking that the idea might be that basic redraw and such should be fairly responsive, and saving the overhead of queueing, dequeueing, etc., not to mention having to have a thread monitoring the queue, is a win. 19:39:57 Basically, if your application is defined entirely in terms of sheets, and not a frame with a toplevel, it doesn't need its own thread. 19:41:40 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:42:02 Is anyone able to explain to me what this does, just knowing that simplify/varsort are functions previously defined?: (simplify (mapcan #'(lambda (x) (list (varsort x))) l)) 19:42:39 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:57 I'm... actually not sure what the utility of sheet event queues are, given how much is done in the port thread and the existence of this separate input buffer thing for the extended input streams. 19:44:12 Oh well, I'll find it... or I won't. 19:44:17 -!- Plamen [n=pkfrey@194-158-251-71.static.adslpremium.ch] has quit [] 19:44:32 Dunno. In McCLIM, the input buffer is also the frame event queue. 19:44:37 nixeagle [n=user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 19:44:54 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:48 ah TCR was right, layers is exactly what I wanted. 19:46:14 well, contextL 19:47:20 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:33 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:50:12 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:18 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:51:46 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:52:00 i want to do a case on a type, but it doesn't seem to be possible to do 'my-type 19:52:32 Plamen [n=pkfrey@62-167-243-187.static.adslpremium.ch] has joined #lisp 19:52:55 oh wait they are just style warnings 19:54:48 but they don't work, is it not possible to do (case (type-of object) ('my-type (do-stuff)) 19:56:36 ... Okay, first, get one of your objects and see what (type-of object) actually returns. 19:56:55 Second, why do you have a case clause of (quote my-type)? 19:57:08 and finally, typecase. 19:57:16 Hey, there you go. 19:57:36 And etypecase, always fun. 19:57:48 ah i did not now of typecase 19:57:52 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@19.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:53 know* 19:58:06 And this is one of the main reasons for SATISFIES types. 19:58:42 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 19:58:50 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-45.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:59:18 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 20:00:13 jmbr [n=jmbr@19.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:00:24 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-122.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:01:25 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:01:36 oh sorry it was a package issue again 20:01:54 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-227-23.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:02:11 though i did find out about typecase and satisfies which is of some merit 20:04:02 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 20:05:10 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-251.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 20:05:16 is there a way to interactively jump to all the successive locations of compiler notes in sbcl/slime? 20:05:31 M-n/M-p in the source buffer. 20:05:38 pkhuong: cool, will try 20:05:39 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest45373 20:05:55 pkhuong: it says no next/previous note 20:06:02 i had just compiled in the *inferior-lisp* buffer 20:06:11 shoudl i be using slime-fancy? 20:06:42 you have to C-c C-k in the source buffer; how else could SWANK intercept the notes? 20:06:48 ah. 20:07:03 *dto* needs to learn to use slime. 20:07:10 what is C-c C-k for the whole package? 20:07:20 well, a file at a time is fine 20:07:37 wow, it highlights. this is a nice feature. 20:07:47 it works for compiling single definitions, too 20:11:17 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:27 dto pasted "optimization noobie" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91661 20:11:59 ok, apparently i want to use fixnum to make this fast, but i get warnings about coercion when i change (declare (integer to (declare fixnum 20:12:22 dto: Right, because there's no guarantee that the -result- is still a fixnum. 20:12:38 adu [n=ajr@pool-71-241-254-143.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:40 Thus it does the math all fast-like, but still has to be prepared to box the end result. 20:13:03 so am i still getting some optimization if i declare them integers? 20:13:07 logand #xFFFF and damn the consequences 20:13:25 You're passing it to SQRT in the end. It might be faster to do everything in single or double floats. 20:13:27 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169480.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:13:28 (okay, really bad idea here) 20:14:05 hefner: Bad idea? And here I thought you were running on Win9x with its 16-bit point coordinates. 20:14:20 (and you get to abuse complexes for SIMD) 20:14:32 bad idea when you are subtracting and wanting to compute a distance :) 20:14:37 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:58 Oh, the perils of optimization! I recently spent some time trying to optimize cl-gambol before the most recent release, and that was maddening. How did people so obsessed with performance that they turned many functions into macros also somehow not try to get consing under control? 20:15:11 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:17 dto annotated #91661 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91661#1 20:15:23 maybe they had a decent garbage collector 20:15:24 pkhuong: Heh. You mean (abs (complex (- x2 x1) (- y2 y1)))? 20:15:26 ok, now this one is for arrays. 20:15:26 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-173-200.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:15:27 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:41 i'm hoping the array stuff is where i can speed up my program. 20:16:00 It might well be. 20:16:01 it's a game with a big 2d grid, so it's constantly areffing 20:16:07 hefner: it was originally written for Utah's "Portable Standard Lisp." I cleaned out several incantations that were designed to protect data from that garbage collector. 20:16:14 Is the type of GRID known better than just "array"? 20:16:26 (Well, "simple-array"...) 20:16:28 it's a two-dimensional array 20:16:36 Two dimensional array of...? 20:16:38 (simple-array vector (* *) 20:16:50 Array of vectors? 20:16:51 each array element is an adjustable vector with fill pointer. 20:17:03 dto: depending on the circumstance, you might skip the square root. I find myself doing a lot of distance comparisons where you don't need it and can square what you're comparing against instead. 20:17:04 Okay, so start by fixing your type declaration for GRID. 20:17:18 nyef: unfortunately, abs uses hypot, which is much more precise than dto's code. 20:17:23 <_3b> vector-push-extend without the optional arg is suspicious 20:17:36 _3b: Is it? I usually leave it off. 20:17:43 (declare (optimize (speed 3)) (type (simple-array vector (* *) grid)) 20:17:45 konr [n=konrad@201.82.138.201] has joined #lisp 20:18:04 Paren balance is wrong there. 20:18:17 dto: your parens are off, and 2d matrices are fairly slow in SBCL. 20:18:19 <_3b> nyef: doesn't it default to linear growth? (doesn't matter if you preallocate enough space though) 20:18:33 _3b: no, why would it? 20:18:34 Is anyone able to explain to me what this does, just knowing that simplify/varsort are functions previously defined?: (simplify (mapcan #'(lambda (x) (list (varsort x))) l)) 20:18:46 pkhuong: fixed the parens. what do I do about the 2d matrices being slow? 20:18:50 _3b: implementation-dependent. 20:18:56 convert it to an array of arrays? 20:19:05 <_3b> hmm, so it is... wonder where i got that idea 20:19:16 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-102.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 20:19:21 dto: fix SBCL (; 20:19:29 btw everyone thanks for all your help :) 20:19:40 dto: first profile, and get an idea of the scale of speed-up you're looking for. 20:19:47 dto: The reason they're "slow" is that there's an extra indirection and there's the index calculation. It's not horrible, and you can always do the index calculation yourself and use row-major-aref or hit up the underlying vector. 20:20:17 *nyef* remembers when he first showed up in #lisp. 20:20:22 i often process the whole grid left to right top to bottom. 20:20:37 I had a program that took about eight hours to run through to where it crashed. 20:20:42 pkhuong: i profiled yesterday, i'll show you, perhaps you can help me interpret the results a bit better 20:21:09 dto: then get the underlying vector (or displace a 2d matrix on top of a vector yourself). 20:21:34 By the time all was said and done, it ran through to the same point in seconds at worst. 20:21:36 pkhuong: what do you mean by the underlying vector? 20:21:47 nyef that sort of thing would really ruin your day 20:22:04 pkhuong: Arrays hairier than simple-vectors have a wrapper in front that adds all that extra information. 20:22:19 the 8 hours to boom that is 20:22:41 dto annotated #91661 "sbprof results " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91661#2 20:22:47 It did. And it was so bad that if it couldn't be made fast in Lisp then I was going to rewrite in C, and that would have been a huge mistake. 20:22:58 nyef: yes, but you can't to the vector portably. If you displace, you get the same effect, and are still able to go underneath the matrix. 20:23:41 Oh, right, displacement is in terms of the row-major order. 20:23:57 We -so- need array slicing. 20:24:31 pkhuong: should I just rewrite it as a big array and do the index calculation myself? 20:24:54 buescher [n=buescher@71.181.162.240] has joined #lisp 20:24:59 -!- buescher is now known as brentb 20:25:09 dto: It kindof depends on how bad the slowdown is and what other optimization you can get for the access. 20:25:17 <_deepfire> nyef, are you also sympathetic to the idea of setf-able array-displacement? 20:25:20 dto: a priori, you can have the best of both world. 20:25:39 _deepfire: I've -used- setf-able array-displacement. 20:25:56 At least, I think I have. 20:25:59 pkhuong: i'll try optimizing the existing implementation first with declarations. 20:26:01 <_3b> dto: is that function you are optimizing the one showing up as 0.05% towards the end of the profile? 20:26:12 I don't understand the profile you pasted. 20:26:47 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-45.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:21 <_3b> dto: for pasting it might be better to run sb-sprof directly, or at least expand more of the entries 20:27:36 _3b yeah, good idea 20:27:44 <_deepfire> nyef, there was a guy the other day who wanted to flatten arrays of arbitrary arity, and the provided solution ended up doing APPLY on ELT (or AREF, I don't remember). 20:27:59 francogrex [n=user@44.121-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:27:59 _deepfire: Eek! 20:28:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:32 <_deepfire> nyef, how much nicer it would've been to collect (coerce # 'list).. 20:28:32 All arrays are already flat: We have row-major-aref. 20:28:50 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:56 I want to be able to take a row or a column of my array and map-into it or pass it around to some other function. If I have a cubic array, I want to be able to take an arbitrary slice to work with. 20:30:09 how do i declare the result type to be fixnum? 20:30:53 pkhuong: i see now it is useless to optimize this one function. 20:30:58 <_deepfire> nyef, sounds fun 20:31:08 dto: have you tried using the statistical profiler? 20:31:19 hefner: no, what's the difference? 20:31:26 <_3b> that is the statistical profiler 20:32:02 <_3b> (filtered through slime for those not familiar with slime-sprof output) 20:32:28 it spends a lot of time drawing. LISPBUILDER-SDL:DRAW-SURFACE takes up a lot of time 20:32:31 dto: Yeah, my optimization problem was fairly pervasive. Turned out that bignums are expensive to box and expensive to unbox and everything I was doing was 32 or 33 bits wide on a host with 29-bit fixnums. 20:32:43 oh, right. the annotation says "sbprof" results, which I interpreted as "not sb-sprof" 20:33:45 That seems sorted in a stupid order. When I've used sb-sprof directly, I recall the report being more useful. 20:33:51 *nyef* ponders execute-frame-command. 20:33:54 <_3b> it is more useful interactively 20:34:02 <_3b> (that output i mean) 20:34:02 (Off with its head!) 20:34:09 pkhuong: RUN-CPU-PHASE is the one i need to optimize. i'll try that. 20:34:36 is there any way to speed up my hash tables? i use a lot of 'eq hash tables 20:34:50 SB-IMPL::GETHASH3 is what it says i'm using 20:35:35 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:36:13 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:28 <_3b> hmm, lisppaste needs an option to set colorization mode per annotation, that profile just about kills firefox when colorized as CL :p 20:36:45 dto annotated #91661 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91661#3 20:37:11 pkhuong: not sure how to get it to be confident in the vector part 20:37:14 a simple cache based on an array will run circles around SBCL's eql hash tables, at least. Not sure about EQ hash tables. 20:37:26 <_3b> dto: why do you put the declare optimize in the middle of the functions? 20:37:45 doesn't the declaration have to be within the scope of the variable? 20:37:56 (that is, I stuck a custom cache in front of an eql hash table, but as my keys were characters, it was easy and logical to map them to an integer) 20:38:05 <_3b> type declaretions do, i mean optimize though 20:38:17 _3b oh, they should be separate? ok. 20:38:41 <_3b> as it is, all your aren't getting optimized, or whatever with-message-queue does 20:39:10 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-173-200.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:15 <_3b> (might not matter, but you might as well try unless you have reason not to) 20:39:21 _3b can you explain that in more detail? 20:39:24 field accesses? 20:39:34 that expands to (field-value :foo self) 20:39:59 <_3b> ok, probably doesn't matter too much unless that gets inlined 20:40:04 I updated my version and I need to place an init .rc file in my HOME dir in win XP, for a previous version it was the C:/ now it doesn't work anymore! 20:40:56 dto annotated #91661 "field-value, can it be optimized? " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91661#4 20:41:15 here's field-value, this is called a LOT so it would be good to speed up. 20:41:25 francogrex: USER-HOMEDIR-PATHNAME ? 20:41:31 <_3b> well, start with declaring optimize speed :p 20:41:57 i use a simple cache for methods that keeps the last few methods called in a cache, so that many method invocations avoid the hash lookup 20:42:35 schme: what is this? USER-HOMEDIR-PATHNAME 20:42:56 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:01 -!- wmannis [n=wmannis@76.201.154.141] has quit [] 20:43:10 slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1CABD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:29 francogrex: It's a function that tells you where SBCL looks for its initfile. 20:43:34 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1CABD.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:44:14 schme, nyef: ok it's #P"C:/" 20:44:27 Well there you go. 20:44:29 slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1CABD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:38 Must be some other reason why it doesn't work then. 20:44:54 but version 9.12.2 doesn't do anything; yes must be another reason. damn it 20:45:19 Version 9.12.2 of what? 20:45:34 ECL 20:45:34 dto: what sort of object model does CLON implement? 20:45:35 schme: I think he isn't using SBCL, you know :) 20:45:43 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1CABD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:45:43 oh 20:45:48 francogrex: never used no ECL. no idea. 20:45:52 prototypes? 20:45:58 slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1CABD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:02 schme: i use both ecl and sbcl 20:46:13 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:46:21 I guess read the ECL documentation or somesuch. 20:46:22 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:46:45 pkhuong: prototype-based. 20:46:53 pkhuong: want to see the source? it's short 20:47:03 dto annotated #91661 "clon source" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91661#5 20:47:17 schme: I asked juango (the maintainer) and he said should work the same as previous version so it was in C:/ anyway, my joy couldn't be complete 20:48:18 dto: sykopomp also has a prototype based object system. 20:48:20 I'll try and blog about an interesting approach sometime. Probably around mid-february. 20:48:25 I love windows. Making software harder to install and use since.. well I dunno really. forever :D 20:48:30 Fade: oh i know :) sheeple 20:48:38 Fade: clon predates sheeple. 20:48:49 ahh. okay :) 20:49:00 schme, what's the problem? just put all your dlls in %WINDIR% and hope for the best. 20:49:15 nostoi [n=nostoi@129.Red-81-44-158.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:23 tic: Hey tic man. I have just switched from firefox to opera! It's so much faster, and it solved my sound problem! 20:49:30 which is faster, clon or sheeple? 20:49:36 i don't know. 20:49:37 schme, oh? excellent, nice to hear! what version of Firefox, and what version of Opera? 20:49:58 maybe clon and sheeple should get together. 20:50:07 tic: uhm.. the opera-snapshot in arch.. and eeeh.. 3.5.5 20:50:20 Fade: it should be called DOLLY 20:50:29 excellent suggestion. ;) 20:50:39 hefner: my (biased) guess would be sheeple; it's got a lot of work put in for optimization lately. 20:50:40 tic: when I hit up flash sites with the firefox it fires up some npviewer-bin and that locks up my soundcard until I kill firefox. For opera I atleast get it back when I close the flash site \o/ 20:51:04 Xach: the base object in sheeple used to be called =dolly= (it's now =standard-object=) 20:51:04 schme: your sound system doesn't have software multiplexing? O.o 20:51:11 schme, hehe, yay. also, you do know you can customize key bindings? calmar.ws is the site. 20:51:13 sykopomp: ah 20:51:20 tic: I'm just puzzled.. I try to hit middle mouse button to paste stuff and it seems to skip backwards in my history. 20:51:30 Ralith: sure it does. it all works 'cept with stupid npviewer. 20:51:36 schme, mouse gestures or something? customizable. (but might not be very easy to spot.) 20:51:45 schme: let me guess; alsa? 20:51:55 hefner annotated #91661 "maybe faster, maybe works, definitely shorter" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91661#6 20:52:00 schme: install the 64bit flash player. npviewer is awful. 20:52:02 schme i like opera, but i found i couldn't click so links and button on webpages for some reason, problem only manifested on ubuntu though 20:52:04 tic: dunno. maybe I just need to be 100% careful not to push the button to the sides. it's one of these logitech 500010234 number of buttons. 20:52:06 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:52:09 pkhuong: i have (declare (type (simple-array vector (* *)) grid))) etc but it says it can't rely on the type of the elements 20:52:12 schme, oh. 20:52:33 Ralith: yup alsa. But I tell you it all works for any amount of sources.. unless either npviewer or jackd locks it all up. 20:52:39 Fade: I'll look into that :) 20:52:45 schme: well, there's your problem ^^ 20:52:47 <3 OSSv4 20:52:56 so much nicer. 20:53:01 Ralith: What is much nicer about it? 20:53:09 you can usually get away with killing npviewer; i seem to recall that unfreezing my ff instance. 20:53:10 reliable multiplexing, for one :P 20:53:10 <_3b> dto: if you know what types are in the array, specify that too 20:53:18 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:53:20 it's also got latency-free per-app volume 20:53:22 dto annotated #91661 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91661#7 20:53:29 Ralith: Well that's not really much of an issue the multiplexing. 20:53:34 and a mixer that gives you full access to your sound card 20:53:40 hocwp [n=user@AAmiens-154-1-42-239.w83-198.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:53:41 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:42 _3b: isn't that given by the vector part of (type (simple-array vector (* *) foo) ? 20:53:43 Ralith: hmm.. seems not worth the switch :P 20:53:44 good support from all OSS apps 20:53:53 (i.e. all of them) 20:53:58 Ralith: if it gives me better latency in jackd then sure :D 20:54:06 tends to Just Work. 20:54:06 Ralith: yeah, imagine how irritated I was when, after "upgrading" to ALSA, I found I could hear the latency when I dragged the volume slider around in xmms 20:54:20 schme: uh, jackd isn't standalone 20:54:23 hi 20:54:29 Ralith: ? 20:54:35 schme: I'm sure that OSS is much faster than jack+alsa :P 20:54:40 <_3b> dto: ah, guess so 20:54:42 Ralith: I doubt it. 20:54:45 hefner: ouch, don't think it used to be that way. 20:54:48 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:54:50 schme: whyzat? 20:54:58 Ralith: Also does OSS even provide the niceties that jack *does* provide? 20:54:59 hefner: all the more vindicating, though. 20:55:04 Ralith: jack is pretty latency free. 20:55:26 I'd still need it even if I was using OSS, no? 20:55:26 schme: jack is certainly nice and fast, but it still needs a backend, and thus it is still extra latency on top of said backend. 20:55:32 _3b: if i declare also that the variable the arefs get assigned to is a VECTOR, the warning about not being able to optimize goes away, but i get Asserted type VECTOR conflicts with derived type (VALUES NULL &OPTIONAL). 20:55:42 Ralith: But does it even work with OSS? 20:55:43 schme: unless you're doing very complex pro audio work I doubt you need jack :P 20:55:48 of course it works with OSS 20:55:50 everything works with OSS. 20:55:53 -!- francogrex [n=user@44.121-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:55:56 bah. offtopic. 20:55:57 dto: well, then, you're lying. 20:55:58 great. 20:55:59 OSS is very, very good at Just Working 20:56:04 unlike alsa >_> 20:56:16 Ralith: I'm not doing very complex audio work. Just normal audio work with routing shit around using jack. 20:56:29 schme: I can't imagine normal audio work needing routing. 20:56:31 hmm. but ALSA just works for me :P 20:56:40 pkhuong: the variable in question doesn't get a value until after the declaration, so it is initially nil 20:56:41 Ralith: huh? But how do you get the audio from one app to another without it? 20:56:43 dto: you should really take a step back and figure out where you could use static information to speed things up (e.g. slot name, message name and arity). In OO, inline caches are also very useful in practice, so that's another win for inlining, at least the fast paths. 20:56:44 is that the problem? 20:56:50 schme: however I like? 20:56:59 it's a real shame that there's so much political crap between the kernel maintainers and the OSS guys. 20:57:01 dto: can't you initialise it to a vector? 20:57:05 it belongs back in mainline 20:57:12 Or avoid assignment 20:57:15 Ralith: I have not found a nice way to do it without jack. I'm confused here. 20:57:26 schme: file -> open is usually pretty nice 20:57:31 >_> 20:57:32 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:47 pkhuong: this is happening inside a loop. is it safe to do a let inside the inner loop, instead of declaring the var outside? 20:57:56 Ralith: right. but then you fire up say I dunno.. some softsynth and you want to route the audio into I dunno some other app that filters the shit. and maybe route that over to your mixer app. 20:58:03 schme: to clarify, I would classify needing realtime low-latency streaming between multiple different apps to be advanced audio work. 20:58:05 Ralith: in real time. that's the point of jack. 20:58:15 hmm. 20:58:15 ok. 20:58:19 schme: the quantity of "I dunno"s in there suggests that you don't need to >_> 20:58:23 it's a valid need, sure 20:58:23 Seems like normal audio work to me :P 20:58:31 and jack is indeed awesome 20:58:33 hehehe 20:58:38 dto: why would it be unsafe? 20:58:39 but it's not something your average user depends on. 20:58:40 I'll have a look at this OSS 20:58:40 <_3b> sounds like off-topic to me :p 20:58:51 and it won't be becoming so until it gets easier to use >_> 20:58:57 Ralith: Well obviously yeah. average user depends on IE6, that's all ;) 20:59:04 :P 20:59:32 pkhuong: wouldn't it be slow to keep doing the (let inside the loop? or does it optimize it? 20:59:42 I'm not sure OSS has as many drivers as alsa due to its marginalization 20:59:43 however 20:59:52 i can certainly put the (let ((foo (aref ...))) (declare (vector foo)) 20:59:52 it has *very* good creative drivers 20:59:56 (unlike alsa) 20:59:58 there has to be some database for the drivers. 21:00:04 creative 21:00:05 and I have yet to find a normal system that it doesn't run great on 21:00:05 BOOOOH 21:00:25 in addition, what drivers it does have tend to be very good. 21:00:41 aforementioned full access to the hw, etc 21:00:43 Ralith: is it compatible with ALSA? :) 21:00:56 audio is always broken. can't use spotify and firefox at the same time on my work computer, spotify thinks ffx has an exclusive lock. even though I've modified all settings accordingly. 21:00:58 hefner: I have yet to see a linux sound app that depends on ALSA :P 21:01:04 dto: LET doesn't really map to code. 21:01:33 tic: Exactly. audio and firefox is fucking nuts. :D 21:01:53 pkhuong: ok, cool. 21:01:56 Ralith: Though I guess even with OSS4 there I'd want jackd to have exclusive lock on the hardware. 21:02:02 dumb question, I setup my first asd file. But when I try to load it, its looking in the systems directory for my code. Seems like its not following the symlink 21:02:06 pkhuong, _3b, thanks so much for educating a noob 21:02:14 :) 21:02:14 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:02:20 Ralith: I'm interested because I have an app that desperately needs weening of SDL's crappy sound layer so I can synchronize with the audio properly, and I'd rather not have to write versions for both ALSA and OSS 21:02:32 hefner: ALSA offers OSS emulation. 21:02:34 has since forever. 21:02:42 (I hate ALSA just enough that I'd consider it even though I don't use OSS anymore, just out of consideration for people who are fighting the good fight) 21:02:59 also, OSS is ported much more widely 21:03:01 solaris, BSDs, etc 21:03:07 Why is everyone hating ALSA? I don't get it. 21:03:09 so OSS is undoubtedly the best option 21:03:13 *schme* is trying to find driver list for OSS :( 21:03:37 clim throw-highlighted-presentation 21:03:37 schme: ALSA was created as a solution for a problem that doesn't exist any more, and has been plagued by annoyances for most of its life :P 21:03:38 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-7.html#_1246 21:03:51 Ralith: but it is ADVANCED :D 21:03:56 lul 21:04:24 schme: because it's a piece of crap that causes my laptop's CPU use to hover around 30-50% constantly for no reason, and my audio to glitch out if I leave an app run for more than 4-8 hours 21:04:25 I think even jack offers OSS emulation 21:04:45 hefner: ouch. 21:04:45 pkhuong: i did (let ((cell (aref... ))) (declare (vector cell)) .... but it still won't optimize, says "upgraded" array element type not known at compile time 21:04:58 schme: also, it has really shitty creative drivers. 21:05:06 it seems to be that when OSS went proprietary it did fit the linux ethos 21:05:10 I first moved to OSS on a machine with an Audigy 21:05:10 but creative is really really shitty to start off with. 21:05:27 because ALSA Just Didn't Work 21:05:40 <_3b> dto: is that when accessing the elements of that vector, or getting the vector out of the countaining array? 21:05:58 Guthur: OSS hasn't been "proprietary" for years :P 21:06:01 Ralith: Do you have any idea where one finds supported cards? I have been banging my head against opensound.com with no godoresults. 21:06:18 and there was never any reason to start over from scratch instead of forking, anyway 21:07:03 dto: is vector defined anywhere? 21:07:54 pkhuong: you mean, show where i actually create the object? 21:08:01 Ugh. There's a wdaemon process soaking up a constant 1-2 %CPU on my system. I know what it's for and why it's running, but don't understand why the heck it needs to -poll- instead of just using select(). 21:08:18 schme: looks like they've got a server down 21:08:25 ehehe 21:08:31 pkhuong: it shows (SB-KERNEL:HAIRY-DATA-VECTOR-REF/CHECK-BOUNDS ARRAY SB-INT:INDEX) <--- one index, so maybe it's not the 2d, maybe it's on the type of THAT vector's elements 21:08:36 schme: what do you have? 21:08:40 pkhuong: i think you are right. 21:08:48 Ralith: is a normal delta 1010 21:08:51 nyef: I wondered something similar about code in SLIME that was waking my machine's CPU up every second or so 21:10:03 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:10:38 hefner: heh; apparently even ALSA devs advise against direct use of the ALSA API, as it's badly (if at all) documented 21:10:48 Ralith: google suggests me to go to manuals.opensound.com seems broken 21:11:34 schme: who manufactures those? 21:11:39 oh this seems to say it works. 21:11:43 Ralith: m-audio 21:12:13 thank you google cache 21:13:11 yay! 21:13:25 I'll see if I can figure out how to install it tomorrie :D 21:14:42 The problem with not using the ALSA API directly is that you're adding an abstraction layer and thus latency and an extra thing to debug if it goes wrong. 21:14:47 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 21:15:34 lispm [n=joswig@g224121048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:16:31 -!- nixeagle [n=user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:38 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:16:52 tic: Is there anything like the adblock and no-script addons for firefox.. for opera? 21:16:55 eh 21:17:39 we invented it! 21:17:52 right click on the page, select block. 21:18:08 right.. but noscript ? 21:18:09 there might exist premade lists, dunno about that. 21:18:21 I can't very well click the scripts :P 21:18:22 Noscript per-page? Edit site preferences -> disable javascript. 21:18:41 hmm.. noscript pretty much turns of all javascript on all pages, cept the scripts I mark as ok. 21:18:45 ... So, the second example for with-output-as-gadget refers to *input-context*, which has earmuffs and is something to do with accept, but executes within an activate-callback which are defined to execute in the context of the port event-handling loop on threaded systems. 21:18:52 schme, http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/replacing-noscript-with-accessible-un/ maybe 21:19:00 *schme* looks 21:19:01 -!- lpolzer__ [n=sky@dslb-088-073-210-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:19:18 schme, google for it, I think you should be able to find something: I just had a quick look now. 21:19:29 tic: ya this one seems to be for some html tag :) 21:20:03 anyone who runs a gadget activate callback in a different thread than the app is a godless communist 21:20:14 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@129.Red-81-44-158.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:20:31 hefner, makes sense. Jean-Louis Gassée is a european, and we europeans are commies. 21:20:41 (in reference to BeAPI) 21:20:54 well atleast we're godless. 21:21:01 \o/ 21:21:05 tic: that's not so bad, they don't have special variables in C++ 21:21:16 -!- davazp` [n=user@146.Red-83-57-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:22 hefner: No, no. Gadget activate callbacks are -defined- to execute in the same thread that calls process-next-event, which is a separate thread on multi-processing systems. 21:21:37 hefner, not quite sure what that means in practice, by I'm guessing "major *ouch*"? 21:22:39 nyef: I really only care about what McCLIM does on CLX, or failing that, what I'd prefer it do. 21:22:43 loxs [n=loxs@78.90.124.182] has joined #lisp 21:22:50 tic: ok one thing is annoying me now about this opera. I just got a popup saying "blocked something or other from popping up from somewhere. click me to see it!" but it's down in the right hand corner of my screen. Not even close to my opera window. 21:23:26 schme, should be configurable. mine pops up in the upper right-hand corner of the browser window triggering the popup. 21:23:35 hmmm 21:23:41 tic: I find no noscript :( 21:24:04 *tic* points at /query 21:24:07 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has left #lisp 21:24:25 -!- hocwp [n=user@AAmiens-154-1-42-239.w83-198.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:24:49 -!- Guest45373 is now known as Kenjin 21:24:49 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224121048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:54 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 21:30:09 hocwp [n=user@AAmiens-154-1-42-239.w83-198.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:30:10 tic: you may have invented it, but firefox has auto-updating blocklist feeds >_> 21:30:30 Ralith, *nod* we invent stuff, and other browsers make it better. *sniff* 21:30:50 need moar desktop haxx0rs. 21:30:58 maybe next time you learn to patent stuff ;) 21:31:01 Actually, I think the Right Thing for that second example is to use execute-frame-command. 21:31:16 -!- Plamen [n=pkfrey@62-167-243-187.static.adslpremium.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:17 schme, I big your pardon, miss! 21:31:19 beg. 21:31:40 come up with adblocking idea. Patent idea. troll the world forever. 21:31:47 It's how one makes money, no? 21:32:41 in east texas, for sure. 21:32:52 yeehaw. 21:33:05 Only two things come from Texas... 21:33:13 woah. I like the snapshot when I hold the mouse over tha tab. 21:35:18 rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:35 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 21:35:46 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-189-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:39:32 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:41:17 Kenjin_ [n=Kenjin@246-116.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 21:41:52 -!- Kenjin_ is now known as Guest68567 21:45:03 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 21:48:05 pkhuong pasted "Bit vectors are hard, let's go on c.l.l" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91663 21:50:00 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-251.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:50:04 -!- Guest68567 is now known as Kenjin 21:50:59 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:08 drownfish [n=drownfis@adsl-99-48-255-188.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:18 Plamen [n=pkfrey@62-167-243-187.static.adslpremium.ch] has joined #lisp 21:53:30 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [] 21:58:35 rvirding [n=chatzill@h69n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:41 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-71-241-254-143.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:02:33 adu [n=ajr@pool-71-241-254-143.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:33 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:16 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-24-7-88-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:38 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-189-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:11 <_3b> pkhuong: but then you miss out on all the fun of having your huge bitvectors ignore *print-length* :) 22:12:15 ugh. I'm defining a class instead of a struct just so I can use with-slots. this can't possibly be worth it. 22:12:57 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 22:12:58 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-189-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:13:34 hefner: Use a symbol-macrolet instead? 22:14:30 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633626.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:15:08 I think I'm going to use a struct of type vector instead. I'm sure I've written a struct-compatible version of with-slots that generates the prefixed names, but I don't feel like searching for it. 22:16:29 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:48 -!- loxs [n=loxs@78.90.124.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:24:19 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:26:19 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1CABD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:27:18 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93655.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:31 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:31:23 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:53 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:26 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 22:33:30 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 22:35:09 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7565e6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:14 It looks like the defined inter-thread interfaces for CLIM as specified are EXECUTE-FRAME-COMMAND, QUEUE-EVENT, and the buffer for extended input streams. 22:35:23 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:38:07 -!- hocwp [n=user@AAmiens-154-1-42-239.w83-198.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:51 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:39:04 note that execute-frame-command is not, to my knowledge, useful for inter-thread communication, but certainly ought to be 22:39:19 I have used execute-frame-command with a certain amount of success for inter-application communication 22:39:43 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:39:47 I have in the past rambled about defining some kind of command event (or thrown presentation event?) that you could put on the queue 22:40:02 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:40:11 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [] 22:40:40 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:40:40 Yeah, I'd worry about using execute-frame-command that way, except that there's a specific mention of mechanism in the spec, and there's really no other way to pass input from a gadget to a frame that is reading a command. 22:41:02 Well, I guess you could stuff a keystroke or two into the stream buffer. 22:41:29 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:27 you can throw presentations from gadgets, at least. maybe not under your literal reading of the spec, but in practice with mcclim. the list gadget does it (I still don't understand why, but it does) 22:44:41 I'm just going to say this: With this reading of the spec, you can populate out a frame without a defined application frame or dedicated thread and still have it be a perfectly functioning window. 22:44:51 And use arbitrary panes and gadgets inside. 22:46:57 sure, you could make that work 22:47:00 Good evening! 22:48:30 evening. 22:50:21 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 22:50:31 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-114-32.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["(good night, too)"] 22:50:38 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@19.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:51:40 Speaking of which, (setf frame-current-layout) doesn't work in McCLIM. 22:51:59 jmbr [n=jmbr@33.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:54:11 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 22:55:20 -!- Plamen [n=pkfrey@62-167-243-187.static.adslpremium.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:25 hey, on a lark, I just tried to get this win32 "hello, world" for sbcl (http://www.lisphacker.com/blog/display/some-sbclwin32-hacking) working on linux by changing the load-shared-objects to the winelib equivalents 22:55:34 brentb: Cool! 22:55:40 and it throws me into an unhandled memory fault 22:55:45 Ah, not so cool. 22:56:11 ... You on 32-bit or 64-bit linux? 22:56:20 anybody have any idea why that might have happened? I am pretty much a rank beginner at this lisp stuff. 22:56:23 32-bit 22:56:26 Hrm. 22:56:46 Unhandled memory fault from where? 22:57:18 (Hey, did we ever sort out that whole x86-calling-convention D-flag thing across the board, or only on win32 and solaris?) 22:57:47 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-128-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:55 I know there was a kernel bug a while back about the signal handling path not correcting for it. 22:58:07 well, the backtrace has a bunch of ugly foreign function addresses after "register-window-class" so it could be a winelib thing 22:58:34 I doubt a hex name for the foreign function will help much 22:58:45 Which version of SBCL? 22:59:02 whatever ubuntu 9.10 ships with, hang on 22:59:05 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-128-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:59:12 Oh god. 22:59:19 This isn't going to be pretty. 22:59:47 1.0.29.11 23:00:32 So... A random unreleased version from four months ago? 23:00:48 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-128-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:00:56 is that so wrong? 23:01:43 Well, the .11 is worrying, but we can argue that it's not our job to support unreleased versions. 23:01:49 Give me a sec here. 23:02:22 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-128-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:43 Okay, under some optimization policies the D flag could be set wrongly on call-out. 23:03:20 I can install the latest, no biggie. and frankly, I have no idea if what I'm trying *should* work. 23:03:27 (Specifically, (> space speed), where it goes through the trampoline in x86-assem.) 23:03:33 I don't know if it should work either. 23:04:09 -!- geekles [n=smh@65.27.73.151] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:12 I know that the win32 SBCL -shouldn't- work under wine, but that's a combination of SBCL's memory map fixation and wine's known-to-be-broken SIGTRAP handling. 23:05:51 The thing is, there's still a hole in this code path on the latest release. 23:06:03 So it may not be an improvement for you. 23:06:30 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:33 the only changes I've made were "/usr/lib/wine/user32.dll.so" for "USER32" and "/usr/lib/wine/gdi32.dll.so" for "GDI32" and I also loaded libwine.so at the repl when I was figuring out how to load shared libraries 23:07:10 I'm not using the win32 sbcl 23:07:19 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-128-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:07:26 I could be so wrong-headed here my head should be spinning. 23:07:49 Actually, I'm kindof impressed, and would never have thought to try this. 23:08:06 But at the same time I also have little idea as to how to debug this. 23:08:40 There's one thing that might be worth a shot. 23:08:56 Let me see if I have a copy of that code unpacked somewhere obvious. 23:10:43 Okay, if you (disassemble #'hello-win32::register-window-class), is there a reference near the bottom to a foreign function "call_into_c"? 23:11:07 Or is there a bunch of FLDZ instructions instead? 23:11:54 And while we're on the topic, dare I ask why you thought to try this? 23:12:12 hrm, it tells me that function isn't external to the package 23:12:37 I am still trying to wrap my head around lisp package handling and build systems and so on 23:12:40 You... used only a single colon, didn't you? 23:13:00 yup 23:13:01 fixed 23:13:10 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:21 The build systems tend towards junk anyway, honestly. 23:13:50 I'm at the point of just having a file that I can load to compile everything and another file that I can load to load everything. 23:15:05 there are a bunch of FLDZ instructions starting around line 922 23:15:31 And there's a CLD instruction about two instructions before that? 23:15:38 yes 23:15:44 Okay, so it's not the D flag. 23:15:52 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-128-207.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:15:57 CLD, then CALL EBX, then eight FLDZ instructions 23:17:11 I'm... rather at a loss. 23:17:23 Kenjin_ [n=Kenjin@242-103.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 23:17:28 Unless the struct definitions changed between win32 proper and winelib. 23:17:35 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:17:51 -!- Kenjin_ is now known as Guest4599 23:20:08 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-128-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:20:31 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:22:39 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-45.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:24:10 Wow. 2006? It's been a while since I wrote that. 23:24:22 and as for why, eventually I'd like to be able to write GUI apps for Windows in lisp, and I didn't feel like rebooting to get started, and that example seemed small enough. 23:24:28 oh wow, you wrote that? 23:24:35 Yeah. 23:24:56 Just sortof as a "See? Even the FFI works!" thing. 23:25:32 These days I do my windows development (when I do any windows development at all) in a virtual machine. 23:26:37 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:07 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@246-116.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Success] 23:29:19 ziga` [n=user@BSN-176-216-63.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:57 Heh. Nikodemus is the one who put the CLD in the VOP definition. 2007-04-11 for the instruction, 2007-05-06 for the comment. 23:30:49 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:49 You know what you might try? Starting sbcl with --dynamic-space-size 300 or so. 23:33:22 If there's a virtual memory allocation going on, and there's not enough to satisfy the request, and somewhere in the wine code isn't checking a return value, that might do the trick in a pinch. 23:35:46 -!- Guest4599 [n=Kenjin@242-103.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 23:36:15 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [] 23:37:30 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:38:26 how do I pass options to sbcl when starting slime? 23:38:36 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:38:40 C-u M-x slime 23:39:28 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42:15 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:38 nope, didn't help, same error 23:43:56 konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.138.201] has joined #lisp 23:44:00 I really don't know, then. 23:44:35 I'm compiling the latest SBCL now just to see, I probably should have everything I'm noodling with as up-to-date as reasonably possible 23:44:55 francogrex [n=user@44.121-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 23:45:20 Hi, can anyone suggest a simple example to demonstrate inline'd functions? 23:45:33 francogrex: Demonstrate in what sense? 23:45:55 nyef: something to test, like disassemble the func 23:46:07 and compare when it is inlined versus not inlines 23:46:23 Okay, how about... (declaim (inline foo)) (defun foo () 'bar) (defun baz () (foo)) 23:47:03 pr [n=pr@p579CAE32.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:03 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-24-7-88-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:47:40 nyef: ok and how to test it? disassemble? 23:48:08 francogrex: That might work, or follow it up with (defun foo () 'quux), then see what happens when you run (baz). 23:49:59 nyef: cool; exactly what i wanted 23:52:38 baddog [n=baddog@110.32.134.244] has joined #lisp 23:54:24 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 23:54:31 brentb: Oh, while I think of it, I should probably warn you, SBCL/Win32 gets little love and has some known issues; you may want to find a different implementation for your windows stuff (I hear ccl works to some degree). 23:54:45 heh 23:55:48 brentb: I haven't tested it extensively, but CCL (minus the infamous 32/64 bug) works fine on windows, including threading 23:56:19 and the 32/64 can be fixed under <100 lines of C-written launcher 23:56:29 (for the final application, I mean) 23:57:30 I tried getting matlisp to work with sbcl/win32 and failed though I think other people have been able to get that working 23:58:13 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.138.201] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:58:13 ... there's an actual sbcl/win32 user community? 23:58:21 -!- francogrex [n=user@44.121-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:43 I can't run CCL until I loosen my iron grip on my wallet and upgrade from the old PIII-mobile so I can use those juicy SSE2 instructions.