00:02:48 I don't know. From looking at it, both parameters are supposed to be functions, but I'm completely unfamiliar with whatever software it is you're using. 00:03:04 ztzg_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-022-097.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:22 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:27 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-81.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:04:05 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 00:05:19 nevermind 00:09:07 *keiya* boggles... 00:10:00 clbuild is confusing to get setup... it seems to be going in circles trying to get sbcl set up? (it needs sbcl to set up sbcl?) 00:10:32 keiya: SBCL needs a lisp environment in order to compile itself. 00:10:37 keiya - download sbcl from www.sbcl.org 00:10:47 install that. then clbuild will bootstrap just fine 00:11:07 (Just like GCC needs a C environment in order to compile itself -- it's not an unusual sort of dependency.) 00:11:11 unless youre on windows in which case all bets are off 00:11:22 Is the one in Ubuntu 9.10's repos new enough? 00:11:37 dont use the repo stuff 00:11:40 nyef: Yeah, it's just usual for tools to hide it a bit better. ;) 00:12:00 lisp lives in its own world - usually the repo packages are too old 00:12:11 fwiw all you have to do to install sbcl is to untar it 00:12:13 Usually the repo packages do something stupid. 00:12:15 and do - sh install.sh 00:12:34 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:12:37 actually "sudo sh install.sh" 00:12:40 Such as the debian packages perverse insistence on using common-lisp-controller. 00:13:01 Ubuntu's SBCL should be good enough to compile clbuild's SBCL, though. 00:13:02 i never understood what clc was supposed to do 00:13:27 (i never tried very hard to understand either) 00:13:43 Dawgmatix: Because it solves a problem that nobody really has: It's for installing global copies of compiled lisp systems for multiple host implementations at once. 00:14:17 Possibly lazily (compile-on-demand for a given combination of host lisp and library). 00:14:24 ah 00:14:46 sounds like a neat idea :) 00:14:53 Sure, but useless. 00:14:55 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.32.149] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:14:56 (in a perfect world) 00:15:01 Exactly. 00:15:09 -!- ztzg [n=dash@dslb-084-057-018-175.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:15:24 Oh, wait, in a perfect world we'd all be running a LispOS anyway. 00:15:33 And we wouldn't have to deal with ASDF. 00:15:51 Ugh. So lisp is another one of those 'do it our way or GTFO' worlds? >_> 00:15:54 well asdf is the closest we come to having some kind of standard 00:16:06 keiya - no more than c :) 00:16:24 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483E780.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:16:27 if youre having any issues with the install just ask .... 00:16:48 fwiw - all languages have these issues, just that in most others someone else handles these for you 00:17:06 keiya: Not exactly, but there are some things that are just too much trouble to deal with, and most distro packages of lisp stuff tend to involve them for some unfathomable reason. 00:17:13 Dawgmatix: C people usually tell you to use your OS's prefered C compiler (unless you have a really compelling reason otherwise, or are a tinkerer :P) 00:17:30 keiya - because the os is built in c :) 00:17:58 in another world where the os was built in java and c was a second class citizen things would be different :) 00:18:05 Also, 'just untar it'... how is that even /possible/? 00:18:16 what? 00:18:21 Differing libcs, archetectures, etc... 00:18:49 You pick a binary tarball for your architecture, libcs tend not to change incompatibly -that- often... 00:19:01 are you on 64 bit ? 00:19:04 Yeah. 00:19:09 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 00:19:21 And x86-64 systems are usually multilib anyway. 00:19:30 http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/sbcl/1.0.29/sbcl-1.0.29-x86_64-linux-binary-r2.tar.bz2/download 00:19:36 get that file - untar it 00:19:46 ppc64? 00:19:48 Ah, so it's pick the right one, untar it, not just untar it :P 00:19:51 do sudo sh install.sh and begin enjoying lisp 00:19:59 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:00 yes keiya 00:20:11 My other box is ppc though, so I'm very pessimistic about that :P 00:20:28 cross-compilation isn't overly difficult. 00:20:31 there is sbcl for ppc :) 00:20:33 No offense meant, I've just had too many headaches to blindly trust :J 00:21:01 Okay, this hack isn't fun anymore. 00:21:02 ask in this channel before you get a headache and after youve read the manual ;) 00:22:29 I'm somewhat confident that the bogus value isn't appearing at %coerce-callable-to-fun, but I'm not sure where it -is- appearing. 00:22:47 ztzg [n=dash@dslb-084-057-006-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:54 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-12-151.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:23:22 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:24:34 *keiya* myeghs 00:24:46 And I thought smalltalk was irritating to set up the first time. :P 00:25:14 And it really doesn't help that I don't get a backtrace, can't set breakpoints, etc. 00:25:24 *keiya* is guilty of writing worse, but it's always hard to get though somethings hoops the first time, eh?) 00:26:01 well you know where the tar file is and you know what to do with it ;) 00:26:13 keiya: Ubuntu's prepackaged SBCL is good enough to compile the more recent SBCL provided by clbuild. 00:28:11 Dawgmatix: Naw, I still need to figure out how to get clbuild to see the bi... or I can just do it the way pinterface mentioned :P 00:28:30 (ESpecially since I'd have to do a build-from-source to get upgraded anyway) 00:28:32 rschilling [n=richard@173.160.132.173] has joined #lisp 00:29:29 grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-155-64.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:41 once you install the thing from the tar file 00:29:48 clbuild will pick it up 00:30:09 and compile the source sbcl using the sbcl already present 00:30:15 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:30:24 Dawgmatix: It /didn't/ pick it up 00:30:30 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-qtalxxuygkxaijtr] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:30:38 Is it not in your path? 00:30:52 is /usr/local/bin in your path? 00:31:11 Ah, you didn't say 'move it to ___' >_> 00:31:14 *keiya* shrugs 00:31:27 Alternately, there's a run-sbcl script in there somewhere... 00:31:41 My assumption to forget assumptions gives me trouble once again 00:31:45 -!- mex_ [i=c74c91db@gateway/web/freenode/x-fbdskmwrznqzinay] has quit ["Page closed"] 00:32:11 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:32:14 nothing has to be moved 00:32:31 if you ran "sudo sh install.sh" it should have installed in /usr/local/bin 00:32:34 Dawgmatix: Moved, symlinked, copied, whatever. 00:32:40 You didn't say to run that, either 00:32:50 hehe youre not paying attention are you? 00:33:08 Oh, I missed a line. 00:33:11 Happens 00:33:23 ztzg__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-006-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:33 -!- ztzg_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-022-097.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:54 Anyway. 00:34:09 I have clbuild compiling the new one now, using the one in ubuntu's repos. 00:34:13 It's working, so yay. 00:39:42 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:06 -!- ztzg [n=dash@dslb-084-057-006-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:44:51 -!- mooglenorph [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:58 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:46:17 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:38 Is this a problem?: 00:54:40 Looking for installable systems... 00:54:40 ls: cannot access /home/keiya/clbuild/systems/*.asd: No such file or directory 00:54:40 0 system definition files registered 00:55:49 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-189-93.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 00:56:28 keiya: Probably depends on when it happens. If you've not yet installed anything beyond sbcl itself, I'd be disinclined to worry. 00:56:40 Okay. 00:56:44 That's true, so :J 01:01:36 Verrazano mangles the foreign names of c functions for which is generating bindings. Any idea why this is and how to fix it? e.g. _Z20avcodec_encode_videoP14AVCodecContextPhiPK7AVFrame instead of avcodec_encode_video 01:02:19 ... Are you sure that's not a C++ name mangling? 01:03:28 nyef: it corresponds to the output of gccxml's xml file (there are mangled="_z23xxxx3kjlnlsaf" attributes everywhere). I think you're right that it's C++ name mangling 01:04:05 So your next trick is to determine what to do about a collision between demangled names. 01:04:11 it's from a C header file, but I guess I did not call gccxml with the proper flags 01:04:19 Or that. 01:05:06 Your other option is to go with the ad-hoc solution of parsing it out as _Z, where len is the length of in characters as a printed decimal number. 01:05:50 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 01:06:21 I don't know what the PhiPK is, but the numbers are clearly lengths, and the first such lenght-coded string looks like a function name. 01:06:57 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.85] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:07:05 I would also assume that the AVCodecContext is a parameter or return value type, and the same for AVFrame. 01:07:44 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 01:08:30 Looking at the XML file, there is a `name' attribute that accompanies the mangled version of the name. I believe verrazano knows about this directly because it generates a non-garbage lisp version of the name 01:11:30 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 01:12:43 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.137] has joined #lisp 01:13:02 Is it possible to make a print-object method that knows how much to indent so that it could print text over several lines, that would alling it self with the indentation when formatting output with ~a? 01:14:08 (format t "~a" (long list with an object that prints out over multiple lines)) 01:14:19 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:15:05 Perhaps you want to look over set-pprint-dispatch and the rest of the pretty-printer control? 01:16:13 nyef: ah, so Verrazano generates a .cpp file when it should be generating a .c file 01:19:05 -!- sykopomp|work [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:25:02 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 01:25:41 -!- rschilling [n=richard@173.160.132.173] has left #lisp 01:29:38 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.114] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:40 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 01:31:28 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.255.243] has joined #lisp 01:37:07 So why are the packages for lisp stuff so terrible? I mean, if you guys who know what you're doing have problems with them... shouldn't you fix that? 01:37:28 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:41 Using clbuild or such /works/, sure, but it's effectively going back to building everything manually, throwing out the reproducability and such of a packaged system. 01:38:20 keiya: what problems are you talking about? 01:38:41 i think he wants stuff to install from synaptic 01:38:43 There are a few people working on what amount to "lisp distributions". 01:38:50 or to have a one click installer. 01:38:54 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.33] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:39:06 But one of the problems is that there's a distinct lack of a release engineering culture in large parts of the lisp world. 01:39:31 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.137] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:42 the pprint-indent function.. 01:40:36 Dawgmatix: She, not he ;) 01:40:40 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:40:51 sorry :) 01:41:50 Anyway, what I mean, more, is that there's a reason we use package managers. They fall behind in versions, but it's a relatively 'stable' platform, in that you can describe a problem and the other guy can probably reproduce it (unless it's PEBKAC, of course) 01:42:02 keiya: also, there are many different solutions... we barely managed to get (somewhat) standardised on ASDF, I guess 01:42:48 p_l: I'm refering to installing the base from the system package manager (apt, yum, whatever fedora's is called...) 01:43:06 i agree with you that package managers would rock, but in a language with many implementations and with few users ... 01:43:19 its more work than anyones put in so far 01:43:27 for some time I used Gentoo's lisp packages, however I recall ending up rather disappointed... clbuild happened to be more "user friendly" 01:43:29 Dawgmatix: It's not, you know. 01:43:56 Some people have put in an impressive amount of work creating sets of systems that work together. 01:44:18 right now, Lisp packaging is, I guess, comparable to what you get programming in C/C++/etc on Windows 01:44:56 nyef - i wasnt aware of them :) 01:45:10 there's libCL for example 01:45:16 i just know about asdf-install and clbuild. and use clbuild :) 01:45:36 Hrm... are any of you familiar with Smalltalk, or Ruby? 01:46:00 keiya: I'm familiar with Ruby, Smalltalk... let's say I had problems getting a running implementation :D 01:46:06 (Specifically, Squeak smalltalk) 01:46:26 gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 01:47:13 keiya: only us in #squeak 01:47:38 p_l: Ruby works. Basically, I'm wondering why people say to avoid installing your base lisp interprepiler from system package manager and using an internal one for lisp packages, similar to installing Ruby and using rubygems. 01:47:54 (I forget what it's called, but Squeak had something similar, IIRC) 01:48:28 keiya: that's the current usual plan, actually... 01:48:36 keiya: squeakmap or package universes 01:49:02 keiya: also monticello for vcs and squeaksource and now metacello or Sake for build/management 01:50:10 p_l: Oh? /me shrugs 01:50:18 I guess I got confused at some point, then :J 01:52:39 keiya: the problematic thing tends to creating an environment that would support both clbuild-style get-from-vcs installation and released packages, plus possibly changes to used build systems to include versioned dependencies etc. 01:54:11 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:50 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:06:50 chenfengyuan| 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[n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:42 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 04:10:12 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 04:12:08 udzinari` [n=user@nat/ibm/x-ksjpzbzdrtknbvso] has joined #lisp 04:13:23 hi, why (declare (type (or simple-vector nil) foo) didn't give any warning? what does 'nil' mean here? (It's a typo made by me but I'm wondering why the compiler didn't tell me) 04:14:38 because or X nil -> X 04:14:49 i think 04:14:54 i could be wrong 04:15:26 huangjs: nil is the bottom type. 04:15:37 (or simple-vector nil) is the same as simple-vector. 04:15:49 Just like T is the top type. 04:16:25 -!- MegaTron [n=Transfor@ool-43563460.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 04:18:41 pkhuong: i see. thanks :) 04:19:51 I have another question. Is it possible to change the end-of-line behavior in SBCL? 04:24:52 Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:25:06 -!- Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 04:25:30 -!- rlarson`a [n=reid08@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:26:47 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 04:30:51 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-jihaezptnqhhpfou] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:18 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 04:33:21 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xpjdjndiklfhskpc] has joined #lisp 04:33:31 ok, I found this. https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/310185 it seems it's not supported currently. 04:33:59 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xpjdjndiklfhskpc] has left #lisp 04:34:07 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xpjdjndiklfhskpc] has joined #lisp 04:37:01 -!- thom__ [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:39:09 -!- chenfengyuan| [n=chenfeng@117.136.10.5] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 04:41:17 reid08 [n=reid08@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:02 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:42:33 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:46:25 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:48:30 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:53:27 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:53:46 here is a young man to watch http://github.com/archimag 04:53:48 lpolzer__ [n=sky@dslb-088-073-193-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:04 Good morning! 04:54:25 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:55:14 morning beach 04:57:03 -!- lpolzer_ [n=sky@dslb-088-073-231-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:57:26 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-30.netcologne.de] has quit [No route to host] 05:00:28 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@65-124-255-226.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [] 05:07:36 dookey [n=bogues@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:46 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 05:13:34 dto1 [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:49 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:14:53 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 05:15:51 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:06 -!- reid08 [n=reid08@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:17:06 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:17:37 reid08 [n=reid08@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:01 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:26:34 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 05:27:23 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 05:30:29 *fatalnix1995* waves 05:32:48 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@pool-74-96-36-243.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:10 still reading that book, at defining your own macro's chapter 05:34:12 brutus [n=brutus@203.199.213.3] has joined #lisp 05:35:00 I have unzipped a lisp library tarball and got a folder with a whole bunch of source files...how do I integrate (install) it into my environment? 05:35:15 brutus: nobody knows 05:35:31 it is a mystery! 05:35:43 brutus: load the .asd. 05:35:46 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633779.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:35:53 then use ASDF to load the system. 05:36:20 why not qwerty though? 05:36:27 of dvorak 05:36:29 or* 05:36:52 Ralith, I'm a complete newbie to this :) Could you direct me to some documentation on how exactly do I "load the .asd" ? 05:37:41 brutus: Fire up your Lisp system. Type (load "mumble.asd"), then (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :name-of-system) and you should be in business. 05:38:18 is asdf:operate a macro? 05:38:34 I am guessing it is a function, why? 05:38:43 justcurious 05:39:45 beach, cool...how do I know name-of-system? 05:40:02 -!- Younder [n=jthing@95.34.200.84] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:08 brutus: Look in the .asd file. There should be a "defsystem" in there. 05:40:42 fatalnix1995: why would it be a macro? 05:41:13 I don't know, the way it handles arguments is sort of.. strange to me 05:41:40 fatalnix1995: In fact, because the load-op is quoted, it is most likely a function. 05:41:40 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 05:44:13 oh 05:44:20 Yeah I noticed that quote 05:44:27 beach, yay..it worked! But when I try the library function from either slime or sbcl it doesn't seem to recognize it...do I have to explicitely include the package in some way? 05:44:29 still a bit unsure of what they do, it sort of went over it 05:44:44 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 05:45:02 probably because the only thing I am used to seeing in front of things are reference characters and the like. 05:45:14 i.e. Perl. 05:45:40 brutus: it's almost certainly in a package. 05:45:48 brutus: try (packagename:function ...) 05:46:32 brutus: incidentally, there's a shortcut in the slime REPL to load systems: , l RET system-name RET 05:46:41 you have to have loaded the .asd first 05:49:32 Ralith, do I always have to have typed the commands (load "foo.asd") and (asdf:operate ...) whenever I start sbcl? 05:50:47 if you want to execute code the code has to have been loaded 05:54:43 brutus: When I have applications that I use a lot, I produce a .core file where they are loaded. Then, when SBCL starts, the application is already loaded. 05:55:53 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"] 05:56:16 brutus: there's asdf:*central-repository* which contains a list of directories to search for .ASD files (it will also follow links to such files, which is the standard operating procedure, usually) 05:57:08 then you don't have to manually load asd files, just use (asd:oos 'asdf:load-op :system-name) or in SLIME , l RET system-name RET 05:57:18 redblue [i=star@ppp152.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:57:22 did sbcl ever solve the symlink problem with asdf and windows? 05:57:32 as clisp did 05:57:51 p_l, how about (require 'asdf-install) and then (asdf-install:install 'cl-unification) ? Would that make the lib functions available? 05:58:26 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59:02 too bad that there's not a big time sugar daddy to pump some money into not only sbcl, but a kick-ass IDE, and another language on top of CL on top of SBCL 06:00:57 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 06:02:53 -!- ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:03:49 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 06:06:18 ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:07:35 Demosthenex [n=demo@c-76-30-124-32.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:04 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 06:08:24 antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:00 brutus: I haven't used asdf-install in a long time 06:09:29 the version that was used for packaging on Gentoo was bastardised cross between full c-l-c from Debian and just asdf-install 06:09:55 minion: tell brutus about clbuild 06:09:55 brutus: look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 06:10:28 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has joined #lisp 06:10:47 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:11:41 p_l, It looked simple enough because it just uses the 2 lines I mentioned above to get me the function 06:12:04 minion, thanks...I shall have a look 06:12:04 you're welcome 06:13:33 brutus: Minion is not human. 06:14:41 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-127-231.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:15:13 bot? 06:15:22 minion: are you a bot? 06:15:23 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 06:15:33 brutus: he prefers to be called an artificial person 06:16:03 minion needs an update ala Aliens II 06:16:06 minion, is this statement false? 06:16:06 yes 06:16:49 hey brianrice 06:18:16 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 06:18:21 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:04 minion, is darcs the only way to get clbuild? Where's the tarball? 06:20:05 no 06:20:26 minion: tell brutus abotu clbuild. 06:20:27 brutus: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 06:20:33 minion: tell brutus about clbuild. 06:20:33 brutus: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 06:21:00 minion: tell me about dylan? 06:21:00 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``dylan''. 06:21:18 minion, how did you pass beach's abotu? 06:21:18 yes, i pass beach s abotu 06:21:21 *parse 06:21:35 minion: dylan is an infix Lisp developed by Apple research 06:21:36 lisp is the glue that binds the variables together 06:22:29 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:25:25 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:27:38 minion: add "dylan" as: dylan is an infix Lisp developed by Apple research. 06:27:39 OK, done. 06:27:47 minion: tell dookey about dylan 06:27:47 dookey: dylan: dylan is an infix Lisp developed by Apple research 06:28:09 good minion 06:29:49 -!- kmc__ is now known as kmc 06:30:08 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:31:45 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@c-76-30-124-32.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:10 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06c445.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:13 good morning 06:32:13 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:38:56 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:39:36 -!- NNshag [i=user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-12-151.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 06:45:06 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 06:49:42 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:55:09 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 06:55:10 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:57:18 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:46 hello serichsen 07:05:30 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 07:12:10 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:13:34 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:14:08 I am adding cliki pages for some Lisp projects and I am not sure how if I should be adding a link to the page in the category page. 07:14:43 for example, the page as a *(Web) marker at the bottom, do also need to put a link to the page in cliki.net/Web or is that generated automatically? 07:17:58 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-137-216.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:18:21 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:19:28 What Lisp projects? If you want announcements, planet.lisp is much more popular :-) 07:19:47 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:20:08 If you send me a mail with project announcements / description I'll "forward" them to planet.lisp. 07:20:57 shouldn't it be (planet lisp) ? :) 07:22:23 snearch [n=olaf@e179136205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:23:01 guaqua: it's a symbol-macro 07:23:33 :) 07:24:37 tcr: Cliki pages and planet.lisp announcements have different, complementary purposes 07:25:01 there's planet cliki 07:25:20 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:41 My point is more who's using cliki anyway 07:26:29 tcr: cheers! 07:26:56 tcr: not only my own, I have been mining repo.or.cz and finding good stuff, undocumented anywhere else in the lispsphere 07:27:57 trivial-gtk, cl-x86-asm, cl-trane, cl-zmq, cl-elf; all stable projects that look more useful than similar crap i have written 07:28:25 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:35 cl-zmq, if it's complete, is a game changer; the fastest message queue on earth! 07:28:53 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:29:01 anyone know of John Connor hangs out here? 07:29:36 from terminator? 07:30:37 nah, dude from here http://repo.or.cz/w?a=project_list;t=lisp 07:31:05 I got an hour to kill and I hope he doesn't mind me clikifying his hacks 07:31:41 fusss: zmq... is that for ZeroMQ AMQP implementation o_O 07:31:52 yep 07:32:00 0MQP 07:32:01 .... You just made my day 07:32:05 I know :-) 07:32:10 unbelievable 07:32:29 I cut corners and implemented Beanstalkd client in CL 07:32:40 horribly slow text based crap 07:32:44 I mean, that basically fixed a certain thing I was looking for a long time 07:33:01  * November 27th, 2009: Common Lisp binding for ØMQ/2.0 was created by Vitaly Mayatskikh. Get the source code here. 07:33:05 p_l: I spent a whole week futzing with RabbitMQ and its OTP stack 07:33:23 WOW, I didn't even notice it was that fresh 07:36:11 this, plus RestMS and I've got IPC covered 07:36:42 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:37:31 now, a DSL for hi-level access to such functionality and CLOS bindings... 07:37:55 cl-wishful-thinking? 07:38:58 fusss: no, something to be included in a future project 07:39:02 (commercial) 07:40:13 aw. 07:41:24 And I can bridge 0MQ and AMQP :D 07:44:07 as well as use RestMS in braindamaged networks 07:47:37 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.114.161] has joined #lisp 07:48:08 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp152.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:23 -!- reid08 [n=reid08@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:51:57 nasty module interdependency in iolib; iolib.os depends on iolib.pathnames, and iolib.pathnames uses the package ISYS which is defined in iolib.os. 07:54:46 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:59:13 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Client Quit] 07:59:24 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 08:00:32 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:28 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:02:28 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:02:50 good morning 08:04:57 fusss: package can have cyclic dependencies :-) 08:05:12 oh! 08:09:39 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:11:38 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Client Quit] 08:12:19 -!- drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [] 08:14:17 gsll is proof that lispy api > straight cffi api. it could badly use an "integrated exploratory environment" though. gsl-lookup gets tiresome after a while. 08:14:20 drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 08:15:19 frodef [n=frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 08:15:25 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 08:16:21 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:21:48 lol. I just recommended GSLL as reason for someone to learn CL 08:28:03 saikatc [n=saikatc@pool-74-96-33-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:17 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-137-216.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:32 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 08:31:34 prxq [n=mommer@g228078113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:40 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:40:59 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:41:14 fusss: what kind of environment? 08:41:48 tcr: just a few emacs extensions, something a bit more IDE-ish than the functions 08:42:20 tcr: it has an EXAMPLE function which takes a category name as an argument and shows you example .. would look better in a drop-down menu 08:42:27 etc. 08:43:54 haven't used Maxima, but i am guessing it gsll could benefit from a maxima integration 08:50:57 and vice-versa, I guess 08:51:35 a common suggestion regarding Maxima's fall from grace was that it didn't have fast numeric routines (compared to BLAS/LAPACK etc.) 08:52:41 btw, regarding IDE... I was pondering adding some extra stuff to SLIME :) 08:54:11 like multiple windows with extra information (tags integration?) and interface to release and package tools 08:55:14 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179136205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:56:34 hm so it seems I've been tricked by allegro's behaviour that it also uses *print-case* for printing hexadecimal numbers and characters 08:57:04 and actually there is no way to get ~X to print lowercase letters? 08:57:23 ~(~X~) 08:57:39 thom__ [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:48 very nice 08:59:46 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:03:29 redblue [i=star@ppp020.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:11:12 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:13:13 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75628e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:07 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:20:14 too bad that Franz can't pull a Cincom and open it up for non-commercial use 09:20:48 snyn [n=sunayana@59.97.224.22] has joined #lisp 09:23:08 lol @ Smalltalk being used to launch a politic career 09:23:19 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:42 Axius [n=ade@92.85.210.218] has joined #lisp 09:26:44 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.255.243] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:27:04 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:28 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:31:38 p_l: you know someone i know? 09:32:44 dookey: After you mentioned Cincom, I did a quick google search, and on Visual Works page I found rather interesting case study :D 09:33:16 yeah 09:33:22 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:34:05 what do you mean by "political career"? 09:34:34 my point was that Franz could open it up to non-commercial use 09:34:51 not that it could save CL 09:35:05 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:35:21 dookey: look on Visual Works page, first thing in "Triumphs" :D 09:35:44 i'm on my netbook, and got music going on 09:35:55 my little netbook can't handle that 09:36:01 but i know what you're saying 09:36:10 hold on 09:36:16 since you made a point of it 09:36:54 there 09:36:59 what do you say? 09:37:18 cincom.com ? 09:37:28 hold on 09:37:35 sorry, i'm not listening 09:37:39 ;) 09:38:53 give me url....visual works is so buried down int he works i can't find it 09:39:02 http://www.cincom.com/us/eng/solutions/application-development/object-oriented/visualworks/visualworks.jsp 09:39:06 http://www.cincom.com/us/eng/solutions/application-development/object-oriented/visualworks/visualworks.jsp?loc=usa <--- click on triumphs 09:39:08 gotchya 09:39:25 gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-4-39-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:57 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.210.218] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:40:23 oh my 09:40:31 some random, random dude 09:40:44 uhhh... 09:41:14 random, random, random dude from germany from his basement who decided to program in smalltalk 09:41:36 i see, very funny 09:42:06 yeah, the smalltalk commercial (or otherwise) industry has been hurting life for a while... 09:43:25 ok, at least CL advoctes have the airliner 09:43:46 Franz should make some arbitrary connection to Schwarznegger. That would give CL some muscle. 09:43:49 dookey: I recall some big Smalltalk database used by some big insurance company... completely internal job 09:43:57 and crazy DOD black ops that you know use CL 09:44:33 p_l: yeah, Smalltalk was huge in Europe for a time being 09:44:51 and now it's all job ads : "convert us from this hell to Java" 09:45:07 *p_l* shudders at java 09:45:27 oh well, we've got C# 4.0 09:46:35 ....if i just had 10 million to blow for the helluva it 09:46:54 *p_l* plans to experiment with .NET 4 09:47:04 1) tighten up sbcl threads 09:47:23 2) spend a million on a killer smalltalk-like SBCL IDE 09:47:25 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-4-203.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:47:37 ....that would cost a million easy 09:48:02 3) pull a Simonyi and build languages on top of CL 09:49:08 smalltalk-like? thanks, but no thanks 09:49:16 no matter what you or me or anybody thinks....lots of parantheses suck 09:49:25 -!- drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:29 have fun with that 09:49:33 do a LISP machine 09:49:40 but on commodity hardware 09:49:43 drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 09:49:48 -!- drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:49:59 with SBCL base 09:50:04 i want Dylan 09:50:12 but more terse 09:50:17 much more terse 09:50:19 can you stop? 09:50:22 no 09:50:28 i believe 09:50:45 could be a troll 09:50:48 this has been going on for ages 09:50:57 could be an ibecile 09:51:04 thanks 09:51:06 the two sets certainly intersect 09:51:06 cmm: classic 09:51:27 bah, I could learn to type 09:51:28 so Dave Moon is an imbecile? 09:51:30 fuck you too 09:51:40 who are you clowns? 09:51:48 you are nobody 09:51:59 sufferers in wait for an op, that's who we are 09:52:15 agreed. 09:52:22 i posses the power of ignore 09:52:26 Ohh. 09:52:32 aye 09:52:43 not a bad plan 09:53:02 so i guess Dave Moon is an imbecile? 09:53:13 bahh, you're probably europeans 09:53:21 so you mean nothing 09:53:31 you don't count when it comes to Lisp 09:54:37 just let us american handle Lisp 09:54:48 you europeans don't mean anything 09:54:52 -!- dookey [n=bogues@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 09:55:22 JonL Jr or something 09:56:46 he left :D 09:57:06 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:57:19 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-23-70.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:58:36 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:58:43 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:52 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:01:59 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:02:38 hello lispers 10:12:22 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 10:14:15 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.36] has joined #lisp 10:15:28 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-4-203.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:15:29 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 10:15:40 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-1-83.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:15:59 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:34 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 10:23:42 SBCL doesn't have the option to include everything and the kitchen sink when using foreign libraries and saving an image, right? A bit like statically linking in C. 10:24:38 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-70-136.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:25:29 Sometimes, as humans, float accuracy up to 8 didgets is good enough... 10:25:33 So... 10:26:23 I created a function that obeys a global variable of n decimal accuracy. 10:26:37 and named it ALMOST-EQUAl 10:26:58 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:27:18 Was there something like this in Lisp that I just missed? 10:27:18 jtza8: or EQUAL-ENOUGH? :) 10:27:20 Heh 10:27:29 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:27:38 Sounds useful though, I'd be interested as well. 10:28:03 Ok then, I'll just put some code onto a pasteboard. 10:32:16 isn't that a trivial function? 10:34:21 (defun almost-equal (a b) (< (abs (- a b)) *margin*)) 10:34:37 davazp [n=user@226.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:43 Yep 10:34:58 Something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/91416 10:35:33 (with variable amounts of arguments) 10:36:13 why not use LOOP? 10:36:47 Stattrav_ [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 10:37:30 and apply will work as (apply #'equal-enough-upto *almost-equal-accuracy* floats) 10:38:34 *jtza8* is a noob, that also forgot the loop syntax. :) 10:42:28 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:44:35 if a is almost equal to b, and b is almost equal to c, is a almost equal to c? 10:45:14 Yep 10:45:19 if 1.0 is almost equal to 1.00000001, is -0.000000005 almost equal to 0.000000005? 10:45:31 Yep 10:45:51 kami [n=user@84.47.226.210] has joined #lisp 10:45:57 Depending on accuracy. 10:45:58 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:46:04 hello 10:46:18 are you saying "yep, for my application", or "yep, there is no conceivable way that that point is ever worth thinking about, so what were the CL designers doing not sticking ALMOST-EQUAL in the language"? 10:46:56 02:44:29 < Xof> if a is almost equal to b, and b is almost equal to c, is a almost equal to c? 10:47:04 that is not the case. 10:47:09 Ah yes. 10:47:26 snearch [n=olaf@e179136205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:47:43 Ralith: not the case where? 10:47:55 jdz: in approximate float comparison 10:48:17 Ralith: which approximate float comparison? 10:48:21 (equal-enough 2.12 2.19 2.29) => T (equal-enough 2.12 2.29) => NIL 10:48:26 with accuracy set to 1 10:48:29 jdz: any. 10:48:50 inaccuracy in general kills transitivity first 10:48:53 Ralith: jtza8 just said it is. 10:48:58 jdz: and he is wrong. 10:49:14 Ralith: so why are you talking to Xof? 10:49:26 jdz: I'm not. 10:49:40 Ralith: no you were. you even quoted him. 10:49:51 jdz: there is a difference between quoting someone and talking to them. 10:50:02 Stassats there is a bug... 10:50:13 jdz: go be contrarian somewhere else. 10:50:40 this isn't an argument! 10:51:22 Ralith: i'm not being contrarian. i'm pointing out that you are not contributing to discussion. 10:51:26 -!- brutus [n=brutus@203.199.213.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:36 jdz: okay, go be an ass somewhere else :P 10:52:11 you are the only one who's looking for asses on irc as far as i can see. and i digress. 10:52:30 ...really? 10:52:48 that is quite a digression you've got there :P 10:52:51 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:53:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:02 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 10:54:04 Xof: I'm not too sure what you mean? 10:54:54 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 10:55:17 *jtza8* is posting a bugfix to the function... 10:55:22 Perhaps it's bad practice to have an N-argument math function for a nontransitive operation? 10:55:26 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 10:55:37 jtza8 pasted "equal-enough 2.0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91419 10:55:48 jtza8: I am pointing out implicit assumptions to your function, that might make you rethink your design (and incidentally point out why it's unlikely that you are missing a standard library function for this) 10:56:03 jtza8: also, paste annotation is there for a reason: use it 10:56:20 Oops, sorry :) 10:56:31 previous paste had no channel 10:58:21 Ah... 11:00:58 Anyhow, was just a thought. 11:04:42 Ralith: If it were transitive, would that make it good practice? 11:05:57 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:05:59 -!- Stattrav_ [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:02 jtza8: you can't do approximate float comparison without it being intransitive. 11:07:17 Hm? 11:07:23 -!- davazp [n=user@226.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:07:31 I might disagree, but let me collect data first 11:08:05 Oh, transitivity. Nevermind 11:08:07 davazp [n=user@249.Red-88-6-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:29 and it's not about floats only. 11:08:53 Well, an n-arg function might do something other than an n-fold of the 2-arg operation, such as check if all the arguments are mutual pairwise equal-enough 11:09:14 That would be a useful feature 11:09:21 that'd be reasonable, insofar as it's not unintuitive. 11:09:25 in some cases. see xof's point. 11:10:08 I wouldn't be surprised by the occurrence of heisenbugs as a result of mistakenly assuming such a function to behave instead like #'= though. 11:11:05 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:12:22 You shouldn't use floats for their great presission. Rather for their performance. I'm thinking of this in terms of a game-engine I'm writing... 11:12:42 kami: BTW, my proposed usage for a Linj derivative includes a lisp-side FFI binding generator - basically, write the glue layer in DSL, let it compile into language you're linking against :-) 11:12:43 IEEE 754: they're rational, just more rational than you 11:12:59 Hehe. 11:13:16 if you want precision, use decimal? :) 11:13:44 or rationals 11:13:49 Floating point isn't imprecise, or unmathematical, or anything like that. It's just commonly misunderstood 11:14:09 (I guess if you don't understand them, you shouldn't use them though.) 11:14:34 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:27 sp0_of [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 11:18:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-50.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 11:20:47 <_deepfire> No, you still can use floating point without understanding. It's just that your right to complain is revoked :-) 11:20:50 g'day #lisp 11:22:12 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:19 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:26:50 Jafet: Sure, I'll do some reading. 11:27:19 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 11:27:58 minion: floats 11:27:59 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``floats''. 11:28:02 Goldberg tells a brilliant bedtime story 11:28:17 jtza8: http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html 11:30:46 i remember in the last place i worked, large American insurer, they never used the floating point data type on the mainframe 11:31:09 possibly because of the rounding error 11:31:36 Guthur: because you don't touch financial data with floating point unless you know explicitly that inexactness is allowed 11:31:58 p_l ya i figured as much 11:32:19 very fussy in that industry 11:32:35 Guthur: for example, you might use floating point during some kind of analysis, statistics etc., but the calculations that would change amounts of money would include only decimal arithmethic 11:32:52 plus there are special, official rounding methods 11:35:10 in a most cases they just ignored the decimal point altogether if i remember right 11:35:37 Guthur: usually decimal arithmethic is emulated with integers 11:35:39 until it came time to printing premiums etc of course 11:36:48 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:37:05 for example, with money, you often store it as the number of lowest denomination token (pennies, cents, whatever), however calculations on it require either decimal arithmethic or emulation of it 11:37:13 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:32 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:38:46 Anyone willing to try out my second attempt at distributing a saved SBCL image using foreign libs on Linux? Uses GTK and Ogre (3D engine). 11:38:52 gimme 11:39:04 tic: http://www.xs4all.nl/~euqirea/DUMP/fractal-explorer-0.1b.tar.bz2 11:39:50 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has left #lisp 11:39:56 tic: I tried contacting through irc you but failed. Should've done a shout out in this channel I guess. 11:40:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:40:53 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 11:40:57 error opeing shared object libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0, libdirectfb-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: 404 11:41:02 (why would it use directfb?) 11:41:32 this worked even less than before. 11:42:22 tic: haha 11:43:53 Error opening shared object "libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0": libselinux.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory. 11:44:03 cvandusen [n=user@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:37 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:06 stassats: yeah, this is useless. i'll have to try another approach. thanks for trying and what distribution are you on? 11:47:18 aerique: slackware 11:48:00 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 11:48:35 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:55:22 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:49 aerique: I wonder why the hell it tried to load libselinux 11:57:32 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-137-216.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:58:23 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-4-39-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:58:28 p_l: some libs i'm (indirectly) using are linked against it. beats my why. just like directfb for tic 11:59:09 it asks for directfb too, if i continue 11:59:14 hi 11:59:55 please I'm playing with slime and emacs, but I'm not able to load a .lisp file I created (load "~/Development/lisp/hello2.lisp") 12:00:10 the file is in ~/Development/lisp/hello2.lisp 12:00:18 and I've got 12:00:26 Couldn't load "~/Development/lisp/hello2.lisp": file does not 12:00:27 exist. 12:00:28 ~ doesn't work 12:00:45 try /home/Posterdati/Development/lisp/hello2.lisp 12:00:56 stassats: good it's working! Tx 12:01:10 or just open that file in emacs and then do C-c C-k 12:01:13 Posterdati: there's also M-x slime-cd 12:01:15 aerique: are you loading app-local copies of the libraries? 12:01:27 stassats: may I compile a file to execute outside repl? 12:01:49 p_l: it comes with a swathe of libs if that's what you mean 12:02:03 Posterdati: it won't be standalone 12:02:06 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:02:21 you can compile a file and then sbcl --load file.fasl 12:02:30 assuming you are using sbcl 12:02:39 aerique: that's bad idea, then. You used distro-specific runtimes 12:03:01 stassats: sbcl or clisp? 12:03:05 p_l: yeah, i'm trying to see how far going the easy road will get me 12:03:06 Posterdati: you can also dump an image, which will contain the whole SBCL, and those standalone 12:03:36 *aerique* needs to go afk for 10 minutes 12:03:51 s/those/hence/ 12:04:22 Posterdati: with clisp too 12:04:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/90903 might be of interest, Posterdati 12:05:08 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:05:32 minion: creating executeables? 12:05:32 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 12:05:43 minion: creating executables? 12:05:43 creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 12:06:30 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xpjdjndiklfhskpc] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:08:08 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jnvtwtxirwcmfmyu] has joined #lisp 12:08:25 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 12:08:36 aerique: suggestion: Use system-wide GTK2, PCRE and libstdc++, the rest can be supplied by you 12:09:07 if you want to deliver GTK with your app, compile your own copy with minimal deps 12:09:49 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-150-169.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:15:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:15:50 <_deepfire> Posterati, you can chmod +x .fasl files produced by SBCL 12:16:12 <_deepfire> On unices, anyway. 12:16:34 <_deepfire> Posterdati, sorry 12:16:50 p_l: thanks, i tried that yesterday but it didn't quite work for tic either. perhaps i should just bite the bullet and check out deb and rpm packaging 12:17:29 for the short term i'll just keep it to source only, it was just an experiment 12:19:27 <_deepfire> aerique, I think Ryan Gordon had some tips on how to make cross-distribution binaries, but I was unable to find them 12:19:58 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:01 _deepfire: well thanks for looking :) 12:21:19 <_deepfire> aerique, you know who Ryan Gordon is, right? 12:21:38 <_deepfire> The icculus.org guy the big shops contract to port games to linux. 12:22:20 _deepfire: no i didn't know that :) 12:23:40 <_deepfire> aerique, he was on the record saying that supporting linux-distroworld-wide binaries is easier than most people think 12:24:27 <_deepfire> He said that as a counterpoint to the common perception that big shops don't do linux games because of the distrohell. 12:25:00 Big shops don't do linux games because there is no market 12:25:10 all because they want to place an icon on the desktop that no gamer wants (especiall those who have linux)? 12:25:14 _deepfire: that does sound good, i'll go try and find his notes 12:25:32 Except for free game shops like popcap, but then linux users don't have flash 12:26:07 <_deepfire> aerique, I spent good 15 minutes trying to dredge something up, but couldn't 12:26:24 <_deepfire> Just saying that it won't necessarily be easy.. 12:27:14 _deepfire: we'll see, thanks anyway :) 12:27:17 bpr [n=user@cpe-72-231-172-136.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:26 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:27:53 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-137-216.vologda.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:28:18 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 12:28:27 hey, is there a way to specify the type of value that will be stored in a object's slot? 12:28:30 for example: 12:28:52 i'm writing a neural network, and my nn class has a slot called neurons of course 12:29:05 bpr: :type arg 12:29:21 i would like to specify that (neurons nn) will be returning a (simple-array double-float) 12:29:23 ah! ok ty 12:29:35 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179136205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:30:16 bpr: just keep in mind that class slot types are pretty much only useful as documentation 12:30:20 bpr: Consider using structs instead of classes 12:30:35 oh, that won't help for optimization purposes? 12:30:47 bpr: not for classes. subclasses could change the type, for example. 12:30:58 not in classes, yes in structs 12:31:10 okie doke 12:31:21 that shouldn't be a prob. 12:31:23 bpr: In case of defclass, they're ignored unless the defclass form is compiled under (safety 3) 12:31:31 -!- snyn [n=sunayana@59.97.224.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:31:45 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:31:54 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 12:32:02 Related: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/485718 12:32:16 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:33:48 maus [n=maus@222.253.62.182] has joined #lisp 12:34:20 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:34:42 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.62.182] has quit [Client Quit] 12:34:59 maus [n=maus@222.253.62.182] has joined #lisp 12:35:36 Good evening! 12:40:04 Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:40:34 benny` [n=benny@i577A1A03.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:48 Tordek_ [n=tordek@186.124.241.135] has joined #lisp 12:42:37 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 12:43:52 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@186.124.175.26] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:44:40 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:33 why-oh-why did they make equalp case-insensitive 12:47:38 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 12:47:54 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:48:00 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 12:48:11 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A287E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:49 tcr: why not use string= then? 12:49:21 because I don't operate singly on strings? 12:49:28 i first thought this was a symbol issue. 12:49:52 ie, (equalp 'HELLO hello) => nil in the world of tcr? 12:50:27 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:08 tcr: what else are you comparing? 12:51:21 hypno: no, it's one of recursing into data structures. 12:51:51 ah, duh, ok. 12:51:55 symbols are upcased by default, after all 12:53:05 yupp, which is why i thought it was an odd remark, starting from the wrong premise. :) 12:53:44 (equalp 'HELLO '|hello|) => NIL 12:54:20 I wonder what the history behind string= vs string-equal is. 12:54:32 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:55:06 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 12:55:34 -!- necroforest [n=jarred@pool-173-79-12-74.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:11 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:13 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:08:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:09:12 lharc: both were needed, and the rule of thumb in CL is that the longer the name of the comparison operator, the less stringent the test. 13:10:05 minion, logs 13:10:05 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 13:10:17 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:18 How can I format a large number with delimiter commas? Like 90,0000 -- I dont' wat it to show as 9.e1 13:11:57 nunb: ~:D 13:12:05 Where is Rhode's CLX repository converted into git by nyef setup? 13:12:30 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 13:12:34 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:12:43 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 13:13:22 tic: common-lisp.net 13:13:50 tic: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/abridgewater/clx.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/glx-fixes 13:14:13 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:26 thanks! 13:16:20 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:16:52 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 13:19:22 Does Rhode's CLX work with clisp? 13:20:30 tic: who is Rhode? 13:20:42 Rhodes', my bad. 13:20:45 Frhode Fjeld? 13:20:50 -!- benny` is now known as benny 13:20:53 Yes, my Norwegian friend. 13:21:09 Pig-norse 13:21:53 i smell a bit of a confusion here 13:22:48 Yeah, I need a shower. 13:24:25 jdz: i eagerly await new blogposts 13:24:51 my latest post is sitting there almost finished for like 2 weeks now 13:24:54 lazy me 13:25:08 i actually have it open now, trying to finish 13:25:20 jdz: *eagerly* awaiting 13:25:33 actually, i think it can be previewed... 13:25:47 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has joined #lisp 13:25:59 http://www.ltn.lv/~jonis/blog/4-bb-cl-2/brians-brain-on-cl-take-3.html 13:26:03 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has quit [Client Quit] 13:26:10 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp020.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 13:26:16 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has joined #lisp 13:26:28 the problem is that i really don't have any point to make here, just a bit of random low-level optimization 13:26:50 oh, have to change optimisation to optimization while i'm at it 13:27:27 jdz: "For these declarations to be of any use Common Lisp compiler must first be instructed to optimise for speed." -- that's not true in my experience 13:27:29 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:27:48 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jnvtwtxirwcmfmyu] has left #lisp 13:27:51 Xach: ok, will clarify that 13:28:08 optimizing for speed has other great benefits, like bucketloads of warnings 13:28:11 Xach: you mean that some implementations have "optimizing defaults"? 13:29:27 jdz: let me verify that my memory is correct, just a moment... 13:30:10 -!- cvandusen [n=user@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:33:51 jdz: hmm, for now i don't have time to come up with a test case. sorry for mentioning it without evidence. 13:34:23 my recollection is that the disassembly changes visibly with type declarations even without speed declarations, but i could be wrong. 13:34:24 Xach: well, no problem. i think i should clarify anyway. 13:40:26 jdz: why do you funcall rules? 13:41:06 lharc: no particular reason i guess, an artifact of code evolution. 13:41:08 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:41:12 a remnant even. 13:41:40 lharc: thanks for spotting. 13:41:50 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:56 jdz: declarations can also serve as documentation and typechecking hints. 13:45:20 pkhuong: that's what i'm writing in my new paraphrase :) 13:45:28 jdz: and yes, type declarations can greatly affect the performance of code at the default optimisation settings. 13:45:31 rlb3 [n=robert@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:22 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-70-136.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:47:13 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:50:44 pkhuong pasted "Declarations at the default optimisation level" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91432 13:51:11 jdz: no problem, thanks for a nice article! 13:51:35 wow 13:51:43 i love sbcl's ; look ma, no bound check output! 13:52:19 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 13:52:49 hmm, i get a different output. with no "look ma..." comments... 13:52:52 :) 13:53:27 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:50 pkhuong is one with the disassembler 13:53:55 jdz annotated #91432 "what I get" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91432#1 13:54:21 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:38 but the code in question is the same it looks 13:54:42 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:55:30 yes, sorry, i was making a bad joke. 13:56:02 pkhuong: why so many nops? 13:56:10 lharc: to align the loop. 13:57:41 jdz: the difference should stem from SLIME and threads on my side. 13:58:26 pkhuong: well, i have those boxed_region comments (which i don't think you were removing?) 13:58:56 anyway, i'm on sbcl 1.0.31.32 13:59:30 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:59:44 myrkraverk`` [n=johann@157-157-186-208.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 14:00:03 jdz: boxed_region is because you use an unthreaded build. 14:00:40 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 14:02:22 cYmen [n=cymen@78.46.36.170] has joined #lisp 14:02:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-50.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:02:40 btw, what's the state of threading on osx? 14:03:03 Afaik there is a function like map that can take several arguments at once (as many as the mapped function needs). Does anybody remember what it's called? 14:03:11 cYmen: map. 14:03:39 jdz: works, but I wouldn't use it for production, except maybe for interactive use. 14:03:48 oh...somehow the clhs description reads like it would have to get separate sequences 14:04:03 cYmen: it does... as many as the mapped function needs. 14:04:18 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 14:04:19 pkhuong: but I want to use only :) 14:04:20 pkhuong: oh, might be good enough for me 14:04:42 like [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6] -> (+) -> [3, 7, 11] 14:05:14 cYmen: that doesn't make sense; + takes an arbitrary number of arguments. 14:05:30 pkhuong: I think cYmen wants something like `group' 14:05:30 pkhuong: yeah that was a symbolic + 14:05:30 adeht, memo from tcr: Re. syobik; that would be cool! 14:05:37 whatever function that takes two arguments... 14:06:11 sounds like reduce 14:06:37 delYsid: wouldn't that reduce the above to 21? 14:06:59 yeah, nm, I wasn't thinking 14:08:35 adeht: Where can I find this 'group'? 14:08:36 You could just write your own helper method to do that - takes a list, reads the first two elements, passes rest recursively - append it to a list and return. 14:08:53 adeht: thanks I talked to him already 14:09:01 tcr: k 14:09:41 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633626.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:09:45 cYmen: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/onlisp.lisp 14:09:51 (loop for (x y) on list by #'cddr collect (+ x y)) 14:10:10 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:10:14 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:49 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:52 pkhuong pasted "How I'd interpret SB-SPROF's output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91435 14:11:12 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has joined #lisp 14:11:26 adeht: thanks 14:11:37 tcr: also thanks 14:11:51 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:53 Krystof [n=csr21@host81-137-200-162.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:38 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:14:49 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-186-44.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:13 pkhuong: ye, i'm pretty inexperienced with the low-level optimization stuff and this is actually my first time doing it with profiling 14:16:44 pkhuong: is it ok to quote you (the text in paste) in the text? 14:16:55 sure, you want to wait 30 seconds though 14:17:10 oh, more stuff incoming :) 14:18:05 InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 14:19:13 pkhuong: I'm not sure we inline count, except perhaps on bitvectors 14:19:28 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-99-164-45-53.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:53 pkhuong annotated #91435 "What the numbers mean" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91435#1 14:20:12 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:15 froydnj: well, that should be fixed ;) 14:21:41 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:22:43 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:46 I do like showing off the lack of bounds check on MAP, though :) 14:25:18 *Xach* tries to figure out if the live-updating timestamps on planet lisp are cool or distracting 14:26:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:57 Xach: the ISO timestamps could be a nicer format (maybe hide the ISO values in an abbr title attribute) (: 14:27:18 I find the live-updating feature neat 14:27:24 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:44 antifuchs: "nicer" meaning "my national custom"? 14:28:05 Xach: if "something with spaces in" is a national custom (*-: 14:28:10 *Xach* thinks about language headers, i18n... 14:28:30 the date format is great, just... drop the T and the Z (-: 14:28:38 -!- rares1 [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 14:28:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:10 or you could drop the absolute timestamp entirely from the main display and use just the relative one, with the absolute ts in an abbr title 14:29:38 hmm, that's true 14:30:53 I like the convention of generating "today" instead of the current date, "yesterday" similarly, and the full date for anything older. 14:31:19 that's nice, too 14:31:26 lichtblau: i don't like it. especially if i find a page in google. 14:31:41 lichtblau: but it depends on the use of course. 14:36:21 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:58 Is it just me or did someone steal those horizontal header lines separating the articles? 14:38:01 postgres has a funky development system; they have "stable" systems with 6 different major numbers, all supported and under active maintenance. 14:38:32 i am not used to that kind of respect 14:39:12 lichtblau: stolen 14:39:22 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:41:21 fusss: I don't think you'd find many Open Source apps with that kind of release quality... otoh, Postgres forms the base of some commercial products (fuck yeah BSD license) and it apparently works for them 14:41:43 EnterpriseDB, for example, takes normal Postgres and turns it into Oracle ;-) 14:43:11 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.62.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:43:39 lichtblau: there were a number of changes -- http://web.archive.org/web/20070202023111/http://planet.lisp.org/ has an old version for comparison 14:43:45 the enterprisedb folks really spam you if you try their product though :) 14:44:02 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:47:51 rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:58 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:48:26 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:48:38 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:49:14 -!- manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:49:34 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:34 jsnell: having done that work on array-types, I am now a bit worried. adjust-array on a complex array could potentially change its displacedness, right? 14:50:15 Krystof: yes. 14:51:06 btw, anyone here know of any open-source license manager solution? (While my code might be mostly opensource, I was interested in introducting visible differences between "free" and "paid" installations...) 14:51:36 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:44 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 14:52:09 pkhuong: well, in that case I'm glad that jsnell said that he thought the compiler modifications would be easy 14:53:26 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:53:48 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:23 a) if that's a problem, we can just defined our adjust-array to return a fresh array rather than mutate the existing one if :displaced-to is true 14:56:31 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:56:36 cods: are you around? I have another cl-vectors question (: 14:56:36 b) why is it a problem? we should still be able to trust a (not (satisfies array-displacement)) declaration 14:56:47 antifuchs: yes 14:56:52 great! (: 14:57:09 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:57:14 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has quit ["leaving"] 14:58:10 jsnell: we can trust the declaration, but derivation is hard 14:58:16 I'm using paths::svg-arc-parameters/reverse to come up with a start and end point for a circle or circle segment, and the circle segment case works, but for a full circle with radius of 50 pixels, it fails with a type error 14:58:20 saying nil is not of type number 14:58:57 I have traced it to calculation of the interpolation normal for the bit of epsilon straight line between the start and end points 14:59:54 should I use make-circle-path instead? Or use two arcs for half the circle? 15:00:00 antifuchs: SVG arc are not designed to handle full circle 15:00:04 ah, heh 15:00:16 this explains that, then (: 15:00:24 Krystof: fair enough, but we can still just not make adjust-array mutate displacedness 15:00:28 (well, that's what I remember, I do not guarantee it. I tend to forget everything.) 15:00:29 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:00:49 jsnell: that would be an interesting hack if we can get away with it 15:01:29 we'd need to change our view of actually-adjustable-ness 15:01:38 antifuchs: as you can see in make-circle-path, the circle is made of 2 arcs 15:01:51 cods: that makes sense 15:02:10 am rewriting the code to use make-circle-path in the full-circle case now. 15:02:54 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 15:02:59 and it might come as a surprise to the user to find that a displaced array can't be adjusted to a different displacement 15:03:19 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 15:04:15 antifuchs: you're using cl-vectors for which kind of project? (if you can tell) Just curious :) 15:04:39 cods: I'm making an anti-aliased bitmap graphics backend for classic clim (: 15:05:50 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 15:05:50 cods: maybe you recall reading http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T39-3VYTY5J-1B&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1119093967&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=81ba8fb26458b196dc2d82cbb1c68ee9 - this is related work (: 15:06:07 well, this is annoying. apparently it's not ok to have variable actual adjustabity 15:06:15 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:06:40 manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has joined #lisp 15:06:48 so scratch that idea 15:06:50 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:07:01 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.93.54] has joined #lisp 15:08:03 cods: you can check some demo graphics of that at http://ecocyc.com/ECOLI/new-image?type=OPERON&object=TU00087 by the way (: 15:09:27 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:10:19 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-23-70.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:12:43 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:19 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:13:51 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:14:23 davazp` [n=user@249.Red-88-1-99.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:22 thanks, cods! this is working now (: 15:18:22 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 15:21:40 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-150-169.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:59 What's better, checking that result of w-out-to-string is zerop o length, or checking for zerop o file-position of the character output stream? 15:24:42 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:25:10 Is length on unicode string still O(1) in sbcl? 15:25:11 tcr: better for what? 15:25:21 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:25:38 arbitrary metric for better, I really just want to gather informational bits 15:25:39 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:40 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:49 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:51 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:55 tcr: the answer to your first question clearly depends on what exactly the code is doing 15:26:22 tcr: there is no answer for arbitrarily measured goodness. 15:26:29 Obviously, I want to see if the body of w-o-t-s did something or not 15:26:45 tcr: it is not that obvious 15:26:54 we don't see your code, really 15:27:08 I expect the people who have the knowledge to actually answer my question to be able to read between the lines 15:27:15 thank you though 15:27:29 tcr: you are welcome, then. have fun. 15:29:05 -!- davazp [n=user@249.Red-88-6-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:14 tcr: length is O(1) in terms of codepoints, not in terms of characters (FSVO"characters") 15:29:31 antifuchs: ah ok, great :) About Ecocyc, I was not aware of this project. 15:29:40 it's pretty awesome 15:29:46 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:46 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:51 jsnell: could we propagate displacedp as a constraint? 15:30:00 gotta love software that lets you download anthrax genome data (: 15:31:48 Krystof: I don't know how much it'd help in practice. the annoying bit is going to be that if we pass an actually adjustable array to any non-known function, it'll have to be considered :maybe displaced 15:32:37 Good afternoon! 15:32:42 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:33:19 have a nice afternoon guys! 15:33:22 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 15:33:36 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.156] has joined #lisp 15:34:11 Krystof: What value would that be? 15:34:51 jsnell: yeah. Highly unpleasant 15:35:04 *Krystof* weeps for his type system hackery 15:35:37 cvandusen [n=irchon@166.205.9.27] has joined #lisp 15:35:48 Perhaps introduce some extendable-array type? 15:36:32 *pkhuong* tries to see how to make Python split structs into their components. 15:36:38 well, it'll still be useful with explicit declarations. and in all the cases where I've been annoyed by adjustable array slowness, the types wouldn't have been inferrable anyway. (usually the array would be stored in e.g. a struct slot) 15:37:15 ok, good 15:37:48 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:20 -!- cvandusen [n=irchon@166.205.9.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:38:32 Isn't that similar to the problem with CONS types? 15:39:02 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:39:38 yes 15:39:44 and no-one uses cons types 15:40:25 potentially because they're useless... 15:40:30 reid09 [n=reid09@68.232.83.45] has joined #lisp 15:41:09 *tcr* would use cons types, cf https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/327537 15:41:28 -!- reid09 [n=reid09@68.232.83.45] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:43 reid09 [n=reid09@68.232.83.45] has joined #lisp 15:42:40 johnthesavage [n=stoic@dhcp197-227.wireless.buffalo.edu] has joined #lisp 15:44:22 G'morning all. 15:44:33 hello nyef 15:44:41 -!- reid09 [n=reid09@68.232.83.45] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:01 nyef: How is your speech recognition thing going? 15:46:05 beach: I'm taking a break to work on improving my environment. Trying to find times and frequencies in the spectrograph output using the gimp was a bit much. 15:46:59 And I accidentally killed my X server and thus all of my state yesterday trying to kill-sexp-backwards in emacs. 15:47:17 why did that kill the X server? 15:47:25 accidental ctrl-alt-backspace I imagine 15:47:27 .oO( It killed P, then X? ) 15:47:33 Because it's M-C-backspace, and I don't have DontZap set in my X config. 15:47:35 I see, yes. 15:47:35 -!- rlb3 [n=robert@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [] 15:47:45 *Ralith* has unbound that after it happened several times to him 15:48:08 nyef: if you upgrade to latest xorg, DontZap is on by default 15:48:25 Heh. And here I was thinking about -downgrading-. 15:48:56 I'm probably not going to do anything until I buy a larger hard drive, and then do a full reinstall with a different linux distro. 15:48:56 -!- johnthesavage [n=stoic@dhcp197-227.wireless.buffalo.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:50:24 pkhuong: cons types useless? 15:50:39 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-77-238.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:50:55 adeht: (cons foo bar) is usually upgraded to (cons t t). 15:51:03 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 15:51:44 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:52:22 I have used (typecase (cons arg arg) ((cons (eql :foo) (eql :bar)) ...) ...) for an extremely lame pattern matcher 15:52:24 Krystof: Adapting to SBCL would be very neat (: 15:52:35 ah, I had satisfies-p in mind 15:52:51 but for use of (cons foo bar) to infer the type of (car x) -- as pkhuong says 15:53:01 Krystof: yes, that's what I had in mind :) 15:53:05 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:54:05 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:53 Do most sbcl developers build with sb-after-xc-core as a matter of course? 15:59:08 lispm [n=joswig@e177147067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:26 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-21-209.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:00:01 I do since I did some hack to the runtime 16:00:59 I haven't been recently, because the times when I need a great number of builds to fix something it's rarely a slammable change. 16:01:05 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:07 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:01:15 Greetings lispers. 16:01:24 But I just enabled it because I thought of a way to make it useful even for when you're making non-slammable changes. 16:02:24 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 16:03:10 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:03:37 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:05:00 milanj [n=milan@109.93.17.23] has joined #lisp 16:05:47 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:09 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:18 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:39 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:51 What kind of changes then? 16:07:21 Well, my current hack is wider fixnums on 64-bit systems. 16:09:24 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:13:44 dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:15:35 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:16:23 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:29 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 16:17:35 -!- schaf [n=6adameit@rzdspc10.informatik.uni-hamburg.de] has left #lisp 16:21:31 -!- addled [i=51269b15@gateway/web/freenode/x-wzlstckpdtlvnjvp] has quit ["Page closed"] 16:22:40 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 16:24:28 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:26:58 addled [i=51269b15@gateway/web/freenode/x-fnxkwhmrzpuftizu] has joined #lisp 16:27:17 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 16:28:37 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:29:18 -!- granto [n=grantoln@dallachy.inf.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:57 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 16:31:22 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-180-0.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:32:37 davazp`` [n=user@29.Red-88-1-101.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:44 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit ["Quitting"] 16:35:31 HG` [n=HG@xdslfa080.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:08 konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 16:36:38 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 16:37:37 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:37:59 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D0AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:10 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:27 -!- binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has quit ["Theism is cancer"] 16:39:48 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:40:22 binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has joined #lisp 16:42:25 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:43:36 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:13 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [] 16:44:23 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 16:44:38 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:44:50 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:45:24 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:28 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:45:30 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:08 -!- Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:48:29 -!- davazp` [n=user@249.Red-88-1-99.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:06 jsnell: What is your own opinion about your package-environment stuff? 16:49:26 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 16:51:03 *nyef* thinks that jsnell's package-environment stuff is frightening in its implementation, but could plausibly be useful. 16:52:59 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:55:35 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:56:21 there's two separate bits there: having an extendable package system for general use, and the particular example there to allow multiple packages of the same name to coexist 16:57:08 for the first bit the solution there is pretty horrible, though I'm not sure that a good one exists 16:57:49 ideally you'd be able to compose multiple package extensions (e.g. per-package nicknames, package environments, and hierarchical packagenames) 16:57:52 jsnell: What other functionalities would an extendable package system allow (other than multiple packages of the same name)? 16:58:06 Hmm, yes I see. 16:58:57 ericjames [n=ericjeld@205.149.71.84] has joined #lisp 17:00:03 I'm not sure how useful the package environment stuff is in itself, it was more of an solution in the search of a problem (IIRC there already existed separate hacks for per-package nicknames and hierarchical package names). it was more of an attempt to explore the problem space, to figure out the answer to what you just asked about 17:00:17 (though concrete use cases for this particular hack have appared a couple of times) 17:00:52 *nyef* modifies genesis to be able to -not- dump c header information. 17:01:03 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@205.149.71.84] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:03 Most people seem to think hierarchical packages are not a good solution, but I am not sure what the objections are now. 17:01:19 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [] 17:01:29 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslfa080.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:32 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:28 I think I could live with package aliases, i.e., package nicknames assigned by the using package. That way, package names could be long and unique (like Internet domains) and the using package could choose a short prefix. This would also avoid having to :use packages in order to get the length of the package prefix down. 17:04:30 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:04:36 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Success] 17:06:43 They don't solve the problem of multiple packages with the same name, but in the worst case, you can include version information in the package name then. 17:06:58 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 17:07:22 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@host81-137-200-162.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:25 I think I like package environments because they allow you to establish an environment and then do random things in it as you load someone else's system. 17:07:29 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 17:08:28 Hrm. A 581632-byte cold-core. I think I like. 17:08:40 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:08:46 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-201-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:09:02 moah [n=gnu@dslb-188-101-031-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:22 "duplicate COLD-FSET for ..."? guess it's not going to be that easy... 17:11:06 clhs clrhash 17:11:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_clrhas.htm 17:11:23 -!- davazp`` [n=user@29.Red-88-1-101.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 17:11:26 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:11:40 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 17:12:10 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 mutew [n=mutew@128.220.159.20] has joined #lisp 17:15:42 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-174-51.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:16:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:17:02 bah, there are so many occasions where I'd like to say "initially collect :foo", or "finally collect :foo" 17:17:37 Mmm... I hear that. 17:19:31 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.93.54] has left #lisp 17:19:39 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-24-223-193.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:39 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:20:47 interesting that ITER doesn't allow that either, afaik 17:21:02 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 17:22:13 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-24-223-193.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:56 Bah, POSITION does not take a :COUNT parameter :-( 17:22:57 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-24-223-193.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:18 md` [n=user@chello089173014026.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 17:24:07 what would it do? 17:24:39 I don't know if :count's a good name, but I think like the second element testing true, or such 17:24:43 well for example return the position of the second occurence 17:24:45 Hi guys, anybody knows why this does not work? (declaim (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:implicit-generic-function-warning)) 17:24:52 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:58 Ugh. I have something like eight distinct sets of changes in one working tree, and will need to separate them at some point into individual patches/commits. 17:25:09 I want to muffle just this style warning, but can't make it working 17:25:15 nyef: Try git gui 17:25:51 nyef: You can choose at individual line(!) granularity what to stage 17:26:07 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 17:26:32 Yeah, I think I might be able to just add subsets of what I have to the index and go from there. 17:28:57 git-add --interactive might work, I think... 17:29:50 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:29:52 git gui is really pleasing to use from my experience 17:30:18 there's probably some emacs mode which has similiar functionality but I haven't found it yet 17:30:30 Yeah, but I don't seem to have it installed, am low on disk space, and have managed to get so far behind portage that it's going to be easier to reinstall. 17:30:54 Ah ok, yeah you need an up-to-date version of git for it 17:31:13 nyef: interesting.. I casually compile git and it includes git gui 17:31:54 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:32:59 tcr: magit, maybe. 17:33:12 zhrek [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:34:11 -!- binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has left #lisp 17:34:48 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:35:56 davazp [n=user@220.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:34 Bronsa [n=bronsa@host143-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:36:53 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:37:32 Hmm, how do I muffle sb-ext:implicit-generic-function-warning? 17:37:45 hey man 17:37:51 i'm using clisp 17:37:55 Rock on. 17:37:56 I did try (declaim (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:implicit-generic-function-warning) 17:38:09 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:38:17 but the warning are still there 17:38:26 if i try to use xlib: it fails and tells me 17:38:27 there is no package with name "XLIB" 17:39:08 did you load clx? 17:39:14 md`: Where did you put it? 17:39:18 stassats: yeah 17:39:33 Bronsa: which clx? 17:39:43 new-clx 17:40:00 tcr: right after "in-package" 17:40:10 perhaps it doesn't have xlib nickname 17:41:16 it does, actually 17:43:47 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:44:04 Bronsa: well, are you sure you have loaded it? 17:44:12 stassats: wait 17:44:17 i got this source 17:44:21 http://codesnippet.altervista.org/finestre-in-common-lisp/ 17:44:42 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 17:45:02 md`: Yeah there's something weird going on 17:45:12 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-45-228.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:45:41 tcr: ok, so I am not alone 17:49:01 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:49:30 -!- bpr [n=user@cpe-72-231-172-136.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:23 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 17:52:00 Bronsa: try to start clisp with -K full parameter 17:52:06 ok 17:52:16 ideally you'd be able to compose multiple package extensions (e.g. per-package nicknames, package environments, and hierarchical packagenames) 17:52:31 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 17:52:58 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:52:58 jsnell: I have a branch whose completeness I honestly can't recall which allows making a standard-object subclass of a structure-class 17:53:15 the motivation was for allowing experimentation with random-state and package protocols 17:58:28 Is there a better idiom for (loop for item in list when (some-condition item) collect item) ? 17:58:45 (remove-if-not #'some-condition list) 17:59:01 Ah, thanks. 17:59:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:39 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:09 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-iatwvjwsvcqudtfo] has joined #lisp 18:01:11 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:01:15 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:57 snearch [n=olaf@g225059123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:06 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:17 joga [n=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 18:04:50 are there any interfaces to an mapping apis for lisp (ie something like google maps, yahoo maps ?) 18:07:06 nuba [n=nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:14 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:01 Dawgmatix: I'd google for that, I did and came up with results - probably a good idea to repeat the search and read up on what franz has done. 18:09:09 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:14 okay - i did see that page 18:09:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:09:53 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:13:12 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:13:45 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:15:49 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 18:17:18 -!- zhrek [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:28 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [] 18:17:58 *tcr* writes an evil boa constructor... :-) 18:18:39 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:18:47 Summermute [n=Summermu@c-98-204-67-114.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:59 *hefner* loves boa constructors 18:22:24 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-1-83.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:22:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"] 18:23:41 for a struct foo, I wrote a constructor which takes a structure of type %foo (a subtype of foo) and which uses that to initializes the slots it inherites from %foo 18:24:19 (new-slot1 %foo &aux (old-old1 (%foo-old-slot1 %foo)) ...) 18:24:46 why the two structs, though? 18:24:59 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:25:28 the code that processes %foo has not all information necessary for foo 18:25:30 hi 18:25:37 and in foo I can make additional slots required slots 18:25:37 hefner: because otherwise the punchline to the joke would be terrible! 18:25:57 what is the best common lisp distribution? (clisp or sbcl or gcl) 18:26:03 to ensure that in the end foo has all it needs 18:26:07 sounds very.. rigorous. 18:26:31 Yeah I hate those Lisp hippies 18:26:52 I'm an absolute beginner 18:27:02 Posterdati: SBCL. 18:27:33 hefner: tx 18:27:40 or CLISP, if you're the sort of unrepentant newbie who insists on doing things the wrong way 18:27:48 pjb [n=t@18.Red-88-30-107.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:57 from this list, sbcl, but i like ccl too 18:28:06 ..and here's our CLISP advocate now. =p 18:28:07 hefner: lol 18:28:10 * tcr writes an evil boa constructor... :-) <-- boa? Not BOA as in the CORBA idiocy now? 18:28:24 Posterdati: from those 3? there are different advantages to sbcl and clisp, none for gcl... use sbcl if those are your options, unless you want clisp for another reason. 18:28:32 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 18:28:55 oh, that BOA 18:28:55 hefner: what's gcl purpose? 18:29:04 hefner: a compiler? 18:30:09 gcl purpose is to run maxima 18:30:11 GCL was maintained as the basis for one of the algebra systems 18:30:22 ok 18:30:35 no one other than maxima uses GCL except people with a letter G fetish who get tricked into using it instead of any of half a dozen superior alternatives 18:30:46 have they reached CL compliance yet? 18:30:52 Posterdati: why not consider ecl, too? (finds things sbcl does not (loop....)) 18:30:54 [1]> (require "clx") 18:30:54 ;; Loading file /usr/lib64/clisp-2.48/dynmod/clx.lisp ... 18:30:54 *** - LOAD: A file with name /usr/lib64/clisp-2.48/clx/new-clx/clx-preload.lisp does not exist 18:31:00 watta fuck? 18:31:13 Bronsa: wrong forum 18:31:21 try the clisp users' mailing list 18:31:49 ..which makes me wonder why the Maxima folks like it so much. I'm sure they have a good reason. 18:32:06 probably because they've always used it? 18:32:20 and their main bonzo was the maintainer of GCL for years 18:32:33 AFAIK it's the only reason GCL still exists at all 18:32:34 well, he forked it for maxima 18:33:15 still, wouldn't it be better to run maxima on something that can compile code? 18:33:20 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 18:33:36 I'm no expert, but I'd expect algebra systems folks to care a bit about performance 18:33:42 gcl can 18:33:47 Failed contribs:" sb-cltl2 . oh-oh 18:33:47 18:34:24 oh, right, it's to C, I thought it was intepreted only 18:34:29 *mathrick* confused 18:36:10 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:36:12 hefner: I thought Maxima worked on non-GCL these days, and GCL was losing favor. But I haven't used it in a few years. 18:37:33 I think gcl has some interesting design decisions 18:37:40 it also runs axiom and acl2 rather well 18:37:44 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.188.183] has joined #lisp 18:38:03 Posterdati: so, it all depends on what you mean by 'best'. 18:39:15 *hefner* is using ECL because it appears "best" for his application, but wishes he were using SBCL 18:40:38 i cannot use SBCL 18:40:44 gentoo's ebuld fails 18:40:48 >:( 18:40:50 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 18:42:10 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:34 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 18:45:16 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.17.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:17 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-128-210.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:22 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 18:47:14 Bronsa: I'm sure gentoo's bugtracker would be interested to learn that 18:47:50 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:45 plus, Bronsa, can't you just install by source if the ebuild fails? 18:49:11 Krystof: there is already a topic 18:49:16 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:16 TDT: i'm thinking on it 18:54:02 Krystof: step one: get binary from sbcl.org. Step 2: get clbuild. Step 3: build sbcl using clbuild and sbcl binary. 18:54:10 sorry, that was for Bronsa 18:54:45 (why my fingers would think Krystof needs advice like that is beyond me. lack of coffee perhaps) 18:54:49 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@pool-74-96-33-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:55:20 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 18:56:37 -!- Bronsa [n=bronsa@host143-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:57:05 Okay, this is utterly stupid, but... I'm writing a shell script. I have set -e at the top. I need to run -one command- that is going to return a nonzero exit status. How do I run it without my script dying then and there or removing the set -e at the top? 18:57:55 command || true 18:57:59 foo || : 18:58:10 Thank you. 18:58:11 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12985.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:43 mine's probably bashism :-) 18:59:04 I don't care about bashism so much right now, I just care about getting something that doesn't obviously fail. 18:59:43 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:00:02 I -almost- have a framework for a set of xc tests. 19:00:29 -!- JHVH is now known as Deus-Imperator 19:02:53 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-180-0.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:51 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-249-4-85.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:21 -!- Deus-Imperator is now known as Elench 19:06:51 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-raaggqnrwvjhlnjk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:07:27 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:31 stassats: You know what would be nice, if you have a bunch of compilation-notes about undefined functions, and then compile in one function, to not clear all notes but only the one of the function you loaded 19:09:02 You know what would be never nicer? A restart when sldb pops up deep inside the swank backend that says "Fail silently and never show me another swank error again, kthx" ;) 19:09:04 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [No route to host] 19:09:28 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:09:42 hefner: *even? 19:09:48 terminate-thread? :-) 19:09:56 huh. my fingers have faulty auto-complete. 19:10:01 tcr: would be nice, yeah 19:10:36 but is it forth the trouble? 19:10:41 worth 19:10:42 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:40 Perhaps, I have further plans for which notes have to stick around 19:12:11 It's all small steps as you've seen with slime-asdf :-) 19:13:24 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:53 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:07 saikatc [n=saikatc@pool-72-83-200-212.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:57 Virnotz [n=Pm@202.93.37.93] has joined #lisp 19:18:12 -!- Virnotz [n=Pm@202.93.37.93] has left #lisp 19:20:20 -!- skeptomai|away [n=cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 19:22:10 skeptomai [n=cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:28 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-37.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:31:35 aintme [n=Miranda@77.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:31:36 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CF07.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:38 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:35:07 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-23-70.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:35:22 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-30-244.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:18 sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:43:42 smaxarang [n=user@91.190.137.236] has joined #lisp 19:45:25 nyef pasted "The start of a cross-compiler test suite for SBCL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91453 19:46:06 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:46:21 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-240-26.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:48:30 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CF07.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:37 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CF07.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:11 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:16 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-feervngbqsqaawul] has joined #lisp 19:50:53 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-1-83.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:51:57 -!- mutew [n=mutew@128.220.159.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:24 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 19:56:11 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-249-4-85.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:56:21 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 19:56:34 dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 20:05:43 kami [n=user@95.82.51.156] has joined #lisp 20:11:22 mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.23] has joined #lisp 20:13:37 HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:56 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-174-51.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:17:07 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-45-228.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:19:46 -!- aintme [n=Miranda@77.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 20:19:56 reid08 [n=reid08@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:01 francogrex [n=user@232.90-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:20:44 Hey all (:->) 20:20:52 Hello francogrex. 20:21:20 nyef, everything's cool? 20:23:27 More or less. I ran out of disk space earlier today, I built the basic framework for a new test suite for SBCL, I started sorting out the eight or so concurrent hacks in my current working tree, I still haven't made any progress on the actual hack I started with two nights ago and got stuck on yesterday... 20:23:38 Still, on the whole, things could be a lot worse. 20:24:56 Shamiq [n=Adium@24-155-205-80.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:03 hi all 20:25:11 is there a non-destructive version of sort? 20:25:35 nyef; some days are just not optimal. Tomorrow it'll be better. 20:25:35 The first thing that comes to mind is to use copy-list and sort the copy. 20:26:06 Shamiq: no. the usual thing is to copy-seq the input. 20:26:07 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@24-155-205-80.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:07 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:15 Shamiq [n=Adium@24-155-205-80.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:16 francogrex: Today is better. Yesterday was irritating. 20:26:16 nyef: that's what Graham seems to indicate in ansi common lisp. 20:26:20 or maybe he can write his own sort using some published algorithm 20:26:55 nyef: when you work on sbcl, do you report to anyone. i mean who is the leader of the project? 20:27:52 thanks 20:27:57 I don't exactly report to anyone in the sense that there's someone handing out tasks, if that's what you're asking. 20:28:46 But there's a few people who have some level of what might be "seniority" in the community who I ask for feedback from. 20:29:54 I also have a sense of what sort of changes I can just commit whenever and what sort I should ask a second opinion on before I check in. 20:29:59 nyef; ok. i wasn't thinking about handing out tasks only, but more along the lines of pressure for deadlines etc... 20:32:16 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:32:41 The only real deadline is the monthly freeze-for-release. 20:32:50 skv [n=sasha@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 20:33:05 That sortof rotates amongst a few people. 20:33:25 monthly freezes are a great thing 20:33:28 (Actually, the monthly release cycle is so formalized that it could almost be entirely automated.) 20:33:37 jleija_ [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:55 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:34:36 i see, so you'll have still some time i guess until end of this year 20:34:52 Sure. About three weeks. 20:36:25 And if I don't make it, the following release is a month later, so no big deal. 20:36:42 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.134.187] has joined #lisp 20:37:51 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 20:37:51 nyef: and then there are changes you'd like second opinions on, and then realise the best test case is the real world. 20:38:00 Sure. 20:38:09 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-C2F2E195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 20:38:13 May be nice to make a major version bump each year 20:38:44 tcr: I expect we'll discuss the milestones in a few weeks. 20:39:06 So, are wider fixnums a generally-desired feature? 20:39:37 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:39:49 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-181-131-48.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:57 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:41:00 pkhuong: I won't be there unfortunately; a point for major bumps is that you can more easily introduce backward-incompatible changes with the start of a new major version. 20:41:01 nyef: definitely (: 20:41:33 how wide? 20:41:45 63bit! 20:41:46 lispm: 63-bit fixnums on 64-bit arches. 20:42:00 63 is cool 20:42:10 Up from 61. 20:42:19 Wider is better. 63-bit fixnums means that in many cases hashes become fisnums. 20:42:31 s/fisnums/fixnums 20:43:28 ... How do I amend the patch before the most recent one? I found another bit I missed. 20:44:10 would that be possible to get 63 bit fixnums? 20:44:25 Why wouldn't it be? 20:44:33 hey where's my 127 bit fixnums! 20:44:38 nyef: git rebase -i HEAD~2 20:44:44 just asking, with gc bits, etc? 20:44:58 http://www.sbcl.org/news.html # comments pls 20:45:15 foom: Where's your 128-bit CPU architecture, and why are we not doing a hybrid-width architecture on it like we did with the alpha? 20:45:42 Krystof: What are we looking for? 20:46:00 links! links, at the slight cost of uglifying the NEWS file 20:46:12 Ah. Sweet. 20:46:44 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-24-2.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:41 I suppose I could deuglify the html, but the NEWS format itself would have to be fixedish 20:48:22 Shamiq1 [n=Adium@24-155-205-80.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:22 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@24-155-205-80.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:48:40 and you'd be surprised how much isn't 100% automatable in an sbcl release 20:48:47 though I should blog about how much better this month was than last month 20:48:53 nyef: xmm registers on x64 are 128 bits wide! :) 20:49:05 nyef: if you can automate it, I might borrow the release manager hat in the future. 20:49:06 No, I wouldn't be surprised: There's the sourcefarce web interface of doom, for starters. 20:49:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 20:49:36 foom: and it's about as slow to move between GPRs and XMM as between L1 and GPRs :| Maybe with AVX. 20:50:29 my release script now gets to the point of building, testing, rebuilding, packaging, hashing, and generating a mail for closing launchpad bugs 20:50:48 Nice. 20:51:06 I'd imagine that if we weren't using sourceforge for file releases you could even push the packages. 20:51:24 that leaves commit, tag, upload, Sourceforge File Manager Of Doom, mail sbcl-announce, mail edit@bugs.lp.net, update website 20:51:48 Most of that should be scriptable as well. 20:51:49 everything in there is theoretically scriptable apart from the Sourceforge File Manager Of Doom (which isn't strictly necessary) 20:51:51 rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-5-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:10 -!- skv [n=sasha@67.136.131.11] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:52:21 foom: naggum had a similar idea with MMX a couple years back. 20:52:26 I was thinking about doing something similar for CLX releases if we start getting any serious activity there. 20:52:30 but I feel uncomfortable with scripting it to that extent (and I'm not feeding my script my gpg key) 20:56:52 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:58:08 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D2F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:56 nyef pasted "This is a bit of a hack, but it's a nice result; should it go into mainline SBCL as-is?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91465 20:59:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:47 question for any allegro users in here - is there some way to get the listener to go to previously entered things at the repl (like Alt-P in sline) 21:00:40 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:33 levy pasted "BUG?: generic method dispatch on function type" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91466 21:01:43 could someone verify this? 21:02:34 levente_meszaros: class-prototype isn't defined on built-in classes. 21:02:44 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-181-131-48.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:03:10 in this case, since function isn't an abstract class, we could do better with our prototype 21:03:22 what you see there is a weird half-function half-not-function object 21:03:39 pkhuong, (typep (sb-pcl::class-prototype (class-of (lambda ()))) 'function) -> t 21:03:45 as I say 21:03:54 what you see there is a weird half-function half-not-function object 21:04:15 and you still can't reliably use class-prototype on most built-in-classes, because they can be abstract classes 21:04:57 SharkBrain [n=gerard@210.48.104.34] has joined #lisp 21:05:14 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-188-101-031-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:06:14 (I think eventually I will use the "it's an error" rather than "it's impossible, here's 42" for class prototype) 21:06:33 nyef: Seems sensible to me. Might want to do bounds checking on that array access, just in case. It might also be nice to fix the FIXME there next to the code you modified too. :) 21:06:58 foom: Okay, so there's still a couple things to clean up, then. 21:08:29 hm, though interestingly, FUNCTION is meant to have a prototype form already 21:08:39 :prototype-form (function (lambda () 42)) 21:08:43 I wonder what's going wrong there 21:08:48 Krystof, that is certainly better than The value # is not of type FUNCTION. 21:09:20 Krystof, also why the behavior changes for the second call 21:09:21 Krystof: not the same layout? 21:09:26 there must be some cache involved 21:09:47 No layout, never mind. 21:10:30 -!- reid08 [n=reid08@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:10:55 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:11:59 Xach: is Shaneal Manek's blog going to be added to planet.lisp.org? 21:12:48 pkhuong: it's a standard-instance whose class is FUNCTION, basically 21:13:01 levente_meszaros: there is a cache involved 21:13:38 madnificent: It might. 21:13:38 the first call is effectively a full call to the generic function, which actually gets as far as the method before the compiled-in type check complains that this pseudofunction isn't a function 21:14:01 the second time, a different discriminating function (set up by the first call) gets called, which performs the type check earlier 21:14:30 (the answer is that function, along with stream, file-stream and string-stream are treated specially in setting up the built-in classes. I wonder why 21:15:52 Tordek [n=tordek@host73.190-138-172.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:17:03 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:17:13 suspicion: it's because those classes had a PCL depth different from their classoid depth, because of weird classes (for function, funcallable-instance, which I deleted years ago; for stream and friends, because of their subclassability) 21:17:55 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CF07.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:18:08 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:20 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:00 hehe, inspecting the session-id->session hash-table of a web application using wui shows the test-fun and hash-fun function sources from the underlying structure 21:19:17 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g228078113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:28 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:57 unfortunately the reader breaks on them 21:20:51 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:21:22 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 21:21:43 KatchaFire [n=bernie@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:02 -!- KatchaFire [n=bernie@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 21:22:33 -!- francogrex [n=user@232.90-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:52 Hmm, someone recently discussed a library for command-line processing. Do you remember what that was? 21:26:12 aha 21:29:16 SimonH [n=simonh@89.240.75.21] has joined #lisp 21:29:34 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-080-216.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:30:16 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:14 Anyone recall where the solving-all-your-GPG-and-asdf-install-woes blog post is? 21:31:17 triyo [n=triyo@dsl-245-149-201.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:32:25 I have asdf-install setup. I get an error when downloading a package: "No key found for key id 0x112ECDF2C4A3823E". How do I fetch the key from keyserver? 21:32:58 Xach, command-line-arguments? 21:33:01 gpg --recv-keys 112ECDF2C4A3823E 21:33:20 just updated to sbcl 1.0.33, building a core, and trying to launch that: "GC invariant lost" 21:33:27 anyone know anything obvious? 21:35:29 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@186.124.241.135] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:47 HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:35:50 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:36:01 -!- Shamiq1 [n=Adium@24-155-205-80.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has left #lisp 21:38:16 levente_meszaros: Part of qitab. http://www.cliki.net/qitab Unix-options might be worth looking at also, it's on github somewhere I think and was posted to the lisp reddit recently. 21:41:59 Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:11 -!- Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 21:44:47 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:00 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:18 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:22 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:49 saikatc_ [n=saikatc@pool-72-83-212-158.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:06 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-240-26.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 21:50:34 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-127-231.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 21:50:42 -!- triyo [n=triyo@dsl-245-149-201.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:12 triyo [n=triyo@dsl-245-149-201.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:51:35 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:52:27 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:17 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:53:20 Hey 21:53:30 Hello. 21:53:37 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:54:05 *nyef* has almost finished untangling his working tree... which doesn't mean that said tree actually works yet. 21:54:20 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-234-234-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@62.75.166.245] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- Fade [i=fade@66.207.216.43] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- scode_ [n=scode@85.17.42.115] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@71.59.145.125] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- Fah [i=cynic@65.23.159.66] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- luis [n=user@64.71.152.157] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- guaqua [i=gua@82.128.221.166] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- djm [n=djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@78.46.36.170] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@67.207.145.149] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:20 -!- cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@78.47.2.107] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:54:24 Faed [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:24 jyujin [n=mdeining@62.75.166.245] has joined #lisp 21:54:24 scode [n=scode@85.17.42.115] has joined #lisp 21:54:24 luis [n=user@64.71.152.157] has joined #lisp 21:54:24 timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 21:54:28 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 21:54:28 guaqua_ [i=gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 jrockway [n=jrockway@67.207.145.149] has joined #lisp 21:54:33 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 21:54:34 djm [n=djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has joined #lisp 21:54:35 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 21:54:36 ahaas [n=ahaas@71.59.145.125] has joined #lisp 21:54:36 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 21:54:52 Fah [i=cynic@paranoia.neverlight.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:52 Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has joined #lisp 21:54:53 LiamH: I looked a bit into documentation... 21:55:10 Sikander: OK 21:55:16 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.23] has quit [] 21:55:27 Sikander: BTW I noticed your latest commit. 21:55:36 *Sikander* feels shame. 21:55:45 Did I screw things up? 21:55:54 (ugly code, I know...) 21:56:12 ? no, good (as far as I can tell) 21:56:36 Oh, ok. The way you said it felt... ominous (or something) 21:56:46 I'm not knowledgeable enough about FFTs to pass judgment, but thank you for the contribution 21:57:08 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@76.90.95.39] has quit [No route to host] 21:57:15 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:24 I've not fully tested everything, but for the few cases I ran it for, it worked. I'll have to make some tests for them as well, I guess? 21:57:53 Sikander: Oh, it would be nice, sure, but you don't *have* to. 21:58:04 Ok, I'll see 21:58:26 Sikander: I still haven't done any more toward getting the GSL FFT tests ported over, as you may have noticed. 21:59:14 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:20 LiamH: Well... focus on the awesome grid stuff, I would suggest :) 21:59:36 Sikander: I am, in my CFT 21:59:55 LiamH: In the few hours I found that I was not distracted from my actual work, I couldn't find a really good solution to the documentation problem... 22:00:23 LiamH: ... but saw that the sbcl source has a nice docstring extracter 22:00:36 LiamH: docstring -> texinfo includes 22:00:51 Might be interesting? 22:00:58 Sikander: Really? beyond #'documentation? 22:01:01 -!- triyo [n=triyo@dsl-245-149-201.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:01:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has joined #lisp 22:01:09 Yes 22:01:16 interesting 22:01:40 I generate all my documentation from doc strings. 22:01:41 Well, I haven't looked into detail, so I can't promise anything. There is probably someone else here who can comment on it... 22:01:50 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@pool-72-83-200-212.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:50 -!- saikatc_ is now known as saikatc 22:02:02 tcr: Yeah, that makes sense. To texinfo? 22:02:31 ironChicken [n=nnnricha@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 22:02:34 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:02:49 E.g. http://common-lisp.net/project/sequence-iterators/ and http://common-lisp.net/project/editor-hints/darcs/named-readtables/doc/named-readtables.html 22:02:50 LiamH: From docstrings.lisp from the SBCL source: 22:02:57 A docstring extractor for the sbcl manual. 22:02:57 Sikander: Actually, I'm more interested in the higher-level documentation which is hand-written and not extracted from docstrings. 22:03:12 LiamH: I'm using a package's docstring for that purpose 22:03:25 LiamH: Sure, but now we know that we can write it in texinfo, and add the extracted doc strings 22:03:27 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Success] 22:03:28 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:03:29 tcr: Interesting 22:03:46 Sikander: Do we know how to do this? 22:04:01 LiamH: I know a little texinfo. 22:04:19 Sikander: No, the extraction to texinfo includes 22:04:26 LiamH: Most of it will be writing by hand, extracting from the GSL manual and using the extractor 22:04:46 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:04:47 LiamH: Well, I found out about it, but it doesn't seem _too_ difficult to use 22:04:49 Sikander: From GSL manual? 22:05:11 LiamH: Sorry, writing by hand and copying some stuff from the GSL manual 22:05:16 KatchaFire [n=bernie@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:18 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:05:20 OK 22:05:27 LiamH: and maybe using the sbcl doc extractor for the docstrings 22:05:52 link on that? 22:06:02 LiamH: the comments in docstrings.lisp (from sbcl source) says that it creates include-ready docs from docstrings of exproted symbols of specified packages. 22:06:04 Erm... 22:06:18 LiamH: Link? I just untarred the sbcl code... 22:06:22 LiamH: source 22:06:32 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 22:06:43 Oh, I was hoping it was described in the SBCL manual. 22:06:50 LiamH: The file docstrings.lisp is in doc/manual/ in the sbcl sourcetree 22:07:28 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.241] has joined #lisp 22:07:37 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:07:50 LiamH: I'm sure it's possible to figure it out how it works from the sbcl doc sources themselves. But I couldn't find it in the manual. 22:07:50 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.241] has joined #lisp 22:08:00 OK 22:08:02 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:25 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:29 good night 22:08:43 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 22:09:28 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06c445.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["for the rare and radiant maiden, whom the angels name Lenore, nameless here for ever more"] 22:09:39 LiamH: The down-side is, of course, that we're using a lisp file from a specific sbcl release. We can copy the file into the gsll tree, but it just seems... less nice 22:09:55 rvirding [n=chatzill@h69n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:06 tcr: i've started doing similar actually, inspired by your documentation. 22:11:09 drewc: I'd like to make my stuff public but it's just hacks 22:11:12 tcr: Do you have a docstring extractor to make the docs for those packages? 22:11:13 eg: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/#sec-3.3.2 22:11:30 Sikander: We can do the extraction ourselves, and commit the extracted doc code. 22:11:53 tcr: my hacks are public at the bottom of that page... but yes, are hacks for sure. 22:12:12 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:12:17 LiamH: So before every commit, run the extractor and check that the docs still look sane? 22:12:20 tcr: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/#sec-6 22:12:42 Sikander: Well every commit that changed the docs. 22:12:59 LiamH: Sure. Should be doable anyhow. 22:13:16 Just like we always run the tests before committing ;-) 22:13:29 Exactly... 22:13:40 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633626.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 22:13:45 Never had any problems with regressions here *cough* 22:14:09 drewc: It's psychologically very rewarding to write a few docstrings, run it through your program and have nice-looking documentation. Instantly, you have incentive to fill the docstrings with details. 22:14:51 LiamH: So I guess I'll figure out how the sbcl docstring extractor works? 22:14:54 tcr: indeed, and encouraging documentation is never a bad thing, especially for me :) 22:15:13 Sikander: Unless tcr will reveal his secrets. 22:15:17 It also gives a different feeling, from having some source repository, to a well-maintained library 22:15:28 Hmm... 22:15:42 LiamH: I'm using some hacked-to-oblivion version of documentation-template 22:15:55 evil regexps all around :-) 22:16:01 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:08 There are packaged extractors, the names Albert and TINAA come to mind, I might be wrong though. Does anybody use them? 22:16:25 drewc: sec-5 looks screwed 22:16:33 tcr: But your extractor doesn't extract to texinfo, does it? 22:16:37 http://common-lisp.net/project/tinaa/ 22:16:38 lichtblau uses albert. Its intended markup is too heavy-weight for my taste 22:16:47 Sikander: No it directly produces html 22:16:57 adeht: screwed how? 22:17:07 What I saw from TINAA and Albert is that they _don't_ produce texinfo 22:17:07 drewc: look at the code 22:17:30 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:42 Sikander: So is texinfo output a must? 22:17:46 adeht: well, the code is horrible, that's for sure.. but what's wrong with sec 5 ? 22:17:50 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 22:18:03 LiamH: Since we need to write a lot by hand anyway, and texinfo is nice because of the backends, I vote for texinfo. But you're the boss :) 22:18:10 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:18:36 drewc: loop is on the same line as tangle, the first case line in typecase is misindented.. 22:18:45 LiamH: I'd hate to write a lot by hand in html; I'm not a "web coder" ;) 22:18:58 adeht: oh, so it is 22:19:04 Sikander: I'm sold. 22:19:22 adeht: that's my latest hack screwing up the source code... no good. 22:19:37 What I'm currently working on: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/hyperdoc.html 22:19:49 LiamH: But there is one thing: the docstring extractor I'm looking at is part of SBCL -> BSD-style license. I'm not a license expert... 22:20:00 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-5-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:20:19 LiamH: texinfo -> LaTeX output -> hmmm... nice math... 22:20:23 :D 22:20:57 Sikander: indeed 22:20:59 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-2-150.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:21:33 Sikander: well tcr has something there, might require some work. 22:22:52 There's also gigamonkeys foo stuff which is common lisp all the way down using cl-pdf / cl-typesetting 22:23:49 tcr: then we wouldn't be able to use TeX to typeset the math 22:23:51 why are lispers (generally) not using texinfo? 22:24:19 Many do, including myself 22:24:21 HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:24:21 With the HTML, PDF and info backends, it's great! 22:24:33 tcr: But your extractor extracts straight to HTML? 22:24:44 http://common-lisp.net/project/parse-declarations/manual/html_node/index.html 22:24:55 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-080-216.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:54 That's fully hand-written, looks beautiful but was a chore to write, and will be a chore to update 22:25:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.85] has joined #lisp 22:26:34 tcr: Wouldn't it be awesome to just write, by hand, a bunch of docs in texinfo, and @include the docstrings where appropriate? This is what the SBCL manual does... 22:27:03 It seems quite nice, because it uses @var and @code etc 22:27:28 I use `foo' for @var and SHOUTING for @code with automatic crosslinking 22:27:41 To me, it's strange that such a package doesn't exist (separate from sbcl code I mean) 22:27:41 -!- InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:28:00 Yeah to me too that's why I produced this home-brewn hack that I'm to ashamed of to share :-) 22:28:09 heheh 22:29:40 LiamH: Well, ok, I'll have a closer look. with the defmfun etc, chances are that we would need a custom extractor anyway :( 22:30:13 Sikander: I don't think so. I tried to be pretty careful to attach the :documentation to the right thing. 22:30:21 Ah, ok 22:30:53 LiamH: So in the coming days, I will be quite busy with other stuff (work...) but I'll give the docstring extractor a try and see what happens. 22:31:27 LiamH: If it works out, I _might_ start with writing some documentation, ok? 22:31:30 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 22:31:31 Sikander: great. There's a real need for something here, clearly. 22:31:48 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225059123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:32:30 ntd [n=user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has joined #lisp 22:32:43 Sikander: There's also http://www.jarw.org.uk/lisp/cl-docutils.html which I wanted to take a look at if that wouldn't be a good base for my stuff 22:32:45 Sikander: Absolutely. If you make something maintainable/releasable out of the SBCL and/or tcr's extractor, that in itself would be a fantastic contribution, well beyond GSLL. 22:33:00 I wonder if the sbcl guys would mind someone trying to make a generic documenting package out of their docstring extractor... 22:33:21 tcr: thanks for the link 22:33:26 davazp` [n=user@76.Red-88-25-187.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:37 Sikander: I'm hard pressed to think of a reason they'd mind, but many of them are here, so I'll let them speak. 22:34:25 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:43 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:35:05 Well, I see such names as Rudi Schlatte and Nikodemus Siivola in the comments of docstrings.lisp. I'm such a noob that I don't know what their nicks are. 22:35:23 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-085-075.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:35:28 Nikodemus Siivola is nikodemus when he's on IRC. 22:35:29 rudi and nikodemus 22:35:35 Hmmm 22:35:48 Well, that was easy :) 22:36:00 Xof would be a major SBCL person as well 22:36:13 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:31 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:37:27 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.85] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:37:55 borism [n=boris@213-35-234-234-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 22:38:05 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:07 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-23-70.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:38:12 -!- SimonH [n=simonh@89.240.75.21] has left #lisp 22:38:13 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:38:25 Ok, I'll have a look at some of the things tcr suggested first, and if I still lean towards the docstrings extractor, I'll bother the SBCL developers 22:38:44 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:13 mutew [n=mutew@128.220.159.20] has joined #lisp 22:39:21 Anyway, it's getting close to bedtime. 22:39:47 Goodnight 22:40:02 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to sleep"] 22:40:23 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:41:51 -!- jleija_ [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:42:03 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:03 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-30.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:45:15 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:45:21 -!- KatchaFire [n=bernie@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 22:45:24 segoe [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-oobishxzhsphfjyp] has joined #lisp 22:47:10 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:11 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:47:47 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:48:27 -!- davazp [n=user@220.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:37 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75628e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:48 demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-85-121-197.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 22:54:21 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-85-121-197.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:56:15 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:02:29 pkhuong: I'm tired. Some of this needs reordering, some of this needs finishing, but it's all up at . 23:02:54 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-42-180.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:03:02 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:03:58 jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 23:04:40 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:52 For that matter, if anyone else wants to take a stab at this, feel free. 23:05:09 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D0AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:06:48 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:08:44 -!- Faed is now known as Fade 23:11:49 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-1-83.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:49 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:12:48 -!- mutew [n=mutew@128.220.159.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:14 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.36] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 23:17:14 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:17:31 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:18:25 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:18:42 -!- sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:49 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:10 -!- davazp` [n=user@76.Red-88-25-187.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:20:26 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:26 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:51 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.134.187] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:57 just saw this - http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/aa9zf/why_i_chose_common_lisp_over_python_ruby_and/ :) 23:24:19 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-37.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:27 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:49 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@pool-72-83-212-158.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:33:39 mutew [n=mutew@128.220.159.20] has joined #lisp 23:37:07 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.134.187] has joined #lisp 23:37:37 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12985.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:22 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-085-075.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:39 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 23:45:09 saikatc [n=saikatc@pool-74-96-33-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:12 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:47 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslak138.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:51 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:53:09 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:29 -!- spec[away] [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:04 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:54:10 -!- md` [n=user@chello089173014026.chello.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:56:40 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:11 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:51 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away]