00:00:13 Well, almost nobody really uses the full flexibility of conditions, so why keep them? 00:00:21 Beyond a comment from Stroustrup in Design and Evolution of C++ about why C++ doesn't have restartable exceptions. 00:00:30 (if you set TMPDIR=/path/to/ext3fs/location it'll use that) 00:00:35 gigamonkey: I thought that was an extremely weak argument when I read that 00:00:58 Yeah. Though you could argue that the viewpoint nyef just expressed provides support for the argument. 00:01:03 "C++ doesn't have restartable exceptions because that would actually be helpful"? 00:01:04 gigamonkey: well I guess it would be a bit hard to implement in C++ 00:01:15 -in +for 00:01:26 gigamonkey: Would it be alright to package HTML copy of PCL with Emacs+SLIME+ClozureCL kit? 00:01:29 nyef: the argument was Cedar/Mesa had them but then it turned out they were never actually used. 00:01:35 ruediger: Umm... No it wouldn't. Just bloody setjmp/longjmp would do the trick. 00:01:51 what does "restartable" mean in this case? 00:01:53 p_l: I think it'd be better to just provide a link to my website. 00:02:07 that you can continue from your original exception location? 00:02:10 -!- arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.75.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:02:18 nyef: it's hard because you don't have a gc to manage the object lifetime 00:02:21 I get why that's not quite as good. But I'm not sure I have the right to give you permission to do anything else. 00:02:24 gigamonkey: would a download script be okay, then? I want to make it possible to use it "disconnected", with hyperspec.el-like lookup on symbols 00:02:35 ruediger: Dynamic-extent? 00:03:05 -!- sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:19 nyef: ? 00:03:26 foom: i've made a file with ext3 in it and can reproduce now 00:03:27 p_l: my official position is that I can't stop people from using wget --recursive. But I can't really endorse making that *too* easy for folks. 00:03:28 (All the extra data for recovery can be stack allocated.) 00:04:12 gigamonkey: heh. I'll stick with external copy, for now then 00:04:15 stassats: huh, neat, I guess. So, somehow, it might actually be an ext3 bug. :P 00:04:17 Thanks. 00:04:18 -!- pjb [n=t@240.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:29 thisguy_ [n=thisguy_@65-103-200-121.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:57 gigamonkey: I'm thinking of making a simple "lisp kit" that I could distribute during Aberdeen University Computing Society :) 00:05:25 p_l: aren't there like a million of those already? 00:05:49 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:57 nyef: in C++ you'd have to step through all the stack frames until the condition is handled and then go back and destroy all objects in the now inaccessible stackframes 00:06:06 I'm not familiar with dynamic-extent 00:06:20 Umm... you have to do that -anyway-. 00:06:35 p_l: Perhaps you should team up with Adlai to revive Lispbox. 00:06:52 I can give you commit privlidges on the Google code repo or we can move it into hg or git or something sane. 00:07:31 foom: seems so, can't reproduce with neither ext2 and ext4 00:07:52 nyef: yeah but with the current way you can destroy the objects when you leave the frame since you can't go back 00:07:55 -!- thisguy_ [n=thisguy_@65-103-200-121.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:24 But my point is that you don't have to leave the frame until you've made the decision of which restart to pick. 00:08:29 ruediger: in Lisp, you can have condition handlers which don't unwind before they run: they run within the stack context of the error 00:08:33 ruediger: the thing is, you don't go ... what nyef said. 00:09:05 C++ only has unwinding exception handers: the unwind happens first, then the handler is called. 00:09:06 gigamonkey, I have a git repo of the changes I made 00:09:28 nyef: hmm 00:09:29 Cool. p_l meet Adlai. Adlai meet p_l. Go to it! 00:09:59 :D 00:10:09 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 00:10:22 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483A903.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:10:30 maybe I should checkout a copy of D&E :D 00:11:58 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:12:02 sellout: did you actually bring your story to a conclusion? 00:12:23 p_l, http://github.com/adlai/lispbox -- I think either the current or one of the most recent commits actually built properly on Cygwin on XP 00:13:05 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 00:13:08 haven't worked on it for a while, though... >_> 00:13:15 hmm... 00:13:38 However now there are *two* people who can roughly explain how it works (or is supposed to). 00:14:22 Also, if you're working on a ClozureCL version, Mikel Evins did some work on it a while back. I can put you in touch with him too. 00:14:34 Email me if you're interested. 00:15:01 maybe this weekend... I actually have some semblance of a job now 00:16:00 Actually that was primarily aimed at p_l, trying to rope him in too. 00:16:00 ah :) 00:16:34 gigamonkey: my idea was slightly different from how LispKit did it, but I'll look into it 00:16:48 You mean Lispbox? Or is there another one? 00:16:59 *LispBox 00:17:02 How different? 00:17:07 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-1-97.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:13 there *was* once a LispKit, but it was something completely different :) 00:17:13 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:20 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:35 gigamonkey: I wanted to make something slightly similar to clbuild mode of operation, except prepackaged for win32 00:18:24 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.114.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:41 Meaning, it can download and install stuff? 00:18:56 yeah 00:19:17 One of the obvious enhancements to Lispbox would be to provide a facility for installing libraries into it. It's sort of intentionally a sealed box at the moment but I'm not opposed to changing that. 00:19:40 From there, adding a mechanism for automating the downloading, would be an reasonable addition. 00:20:32 Okay, I've got to take some 3-year-olds to gymnastics. Talk to you folks later. 00:20:42 pfeyz [n=user@146.95.33.216] has joined #lisp 00:20:47 see you 00:22:47 bye gigamonkey 00:22:55 congratulations on the novel 00:23:11 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:25:30 Gah! Yet more places where it's assumed that n-fixnum-tag-bits is (1- n-lowtag-bits). 00:26:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:09 And more. :-/ 00:29:16 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 00:31:00 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-243.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:35:44 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:52 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:38:16 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:39:12 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:53 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:53 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.86.245.101] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:45:41 auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable025.59-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:45:45 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable025.59-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46:55 -!- davazp [n=user@16.Red-83-37-232.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:37 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@mue-88-130-116-101.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:10 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357050.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:54:34 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:57:42 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:59:59 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it."] 01:00:48 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:25 Madsy^ [n=Madsy@ti0207a340-0022.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 01:04:02 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-188-099-117-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:33 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [] 01:04:48 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-77-201.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 01:05:51 quek [n=read_eva@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 01:08:53 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 01:09:02 *nyef* screams. 01:09:26 Stupid genesis is the -worst- offender with respect to n-fixnum-tag-bits. 01:10:05 gigamonkey: I have two conclusions. 01:10:42 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-77-201.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:10:45 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:53 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-77-201.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 01:11:12 One I wrote at the very beginning, which as I started writing more made me realize I didn't have time to do with the depth I wanted. So I added on a bunch more stuff, afterward, and wrote the second conclusion about a week ago. 01:11:38 I definitely jumped around a ton writing this, and there are still gaps to fill in. 01:12:01 gigamonkey: How about you? Did you write start-to-finish? 01:19:06 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:35 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 01:19:39 Woohoo! It finally survived genesis! 01:19:56 Died instantly in target-2, of course 01:20:45 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-035-147.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:54 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.167] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:24:11 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:17 any elephant users/programmers here? 01:24:39 -!- pfeyz [n=user@146.95.33.216] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:49 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:28:30 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:44 wgl, such a language already exist actually 01:28:45 ? 01:28:47 Note to self: Add DontZap to X11 config. Attempting to kill-sexp-backwards is far too tempting. 01:29:48 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:06 *stassats* has DontZap because of emacs 01:30:11 Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-122-56.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 01:30:29 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 01:30:48 araujo: I am referring to the elephant persistant store for lisp. 01:31:11 ooh 01:31:12 hahha 01:31:14 ok 01:36:56 mutew [n=mutew@128.220.251.38] has joined #lisp 01:44:37 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-188-099-117-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:02 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:45:26 dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 01:46:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ewphmcohjqkrzcmd] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:48:36 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 01:49:15 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:26 *nyef* notes that LDB doesn't get excersized nearly enough on x86-64. 02:05:58 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:59 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 02:09:32 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:09:52 dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 02:12:46 -!- voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit ["sleep"] 02:14:49 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:16:17 C-a C-k (kill) Destroy current window. 02:16:41 oops 02:16:43 That pragmatic parsing parser paper for CL is really a complicated program in a lot of ways. I hate research papers in how long it takes for it to click. 02:17:57 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:18:40 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 02:20:26 -!- quek [n=read_eva@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:46 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:22:49 Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl09-112.gl09.cilas.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:00 auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable025.59-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:23:09 -!- Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl09-112.gl09.cilas.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:23:23 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:24:24 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:25:14 ugh, clojure and newlisp question on sbcl-help 02:27:36 What does "(- (char-code d) #.(char-code #\0))" exactlu do? I understand that it's finding the ASCII representation of d, then subtracting it from the ascii representation of 0 - but what does #. mean? 02:28:06 TDT: #.FORM provides the value of FORM at read time. 02:28:15 TDT: that code is stupid, though. where did you see it? 02:28:19 that does mean that the author doesn't know about DIGIT-CHAR-P 02:29:15 sec, let me pull up the specific page -reading this now from PDF 02:29:22 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 02:31:27 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/Prag-Parse.html -- if you search for (defun ctoi 02:32:03 ... Wow. Printing interrupt contexts on x86-64 in LDB has -always- been broken. 02:32:32 TDT: it's a broken version of digit-char-p 02:33:35 ht [n=ht@ip98-160-237-110.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:13 stassats: ah, I see..so all his intention was to determine if the char being passed in was just a digit, and to pass back the value of the integer of what that digit is? 02:35:20 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:35:55 sans determination bit 02:37:00 Oh. 02:38:32 Hello everyone 02:38:55 There's a pile of code in the calling convention that assumes that fixnum tagging is also multiplying by n-word-bytes. 02:39:05 Could someone help me please,I have looked all over the internet and toiled away at this problem for a good while now and was wondering if anyone here knows an easy way to check if a car is an atom that is not in a list? 02:39:12 No way am I sorting this out tonight. 02:40:19 ht: what part of that project is causing you trouble? 02:40:25 By definition, a CAR is a slot, thus not a first-class object. If you mean the contents of that slot, by definition it is in a list, because it's stored in the CAR of a CONS, which is at the very least an improper list. 02:43:30 sounds like a set of all sets not containing themselves 02:43:31 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:43:33 Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 02:44:12 Sounds like a set of all objects not contained in a set. 02:44:48 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:49 ... You know what might make that question make sense? If it were a -given- list. 02:44:57 At which point, MEMBER, POSITION, FIND, etc. 02:46:32 isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1177827163.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:47:14 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:33 -!- isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1177827163.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47:42 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.131.3] has joined #lisp 02:52:07 ya I just figured it out i used the not of listp, but i had to break it out into functions and it worked lol 02:53:52 so, what would you do with NIL, which is an atom and a list at the same time? 02:55:45 hmmm lemme check that lol 02:55:56 i think i covered that case but lemme reassure myself 02:56:46 hmmm ya it doesn't cover that case : o.0 02:57:03 im a failure 02:57:05 lol 02:58:03 it doesn't count it as an atom? then use ATOM instead of (not (listp x)) 02:59:57 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable025.59-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:02:24 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:36 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:05:34 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:35 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-89-241.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:11:02 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-89-241.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:12:25 Thanks guys for your help! I will see you around :) 03:12:30 -!- ht [n=ht@ip98-160-237-110.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:13:25 metasyntax` [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:04 shortsightedsid [i=c0a314e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-anqapwncsovblovs] has joined #lisp 03:15:43 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357050.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:45 qwebirc51335 [i=c0a314e8@gateway/web/freenode/x-fhtbmesrdkhfziud] has joined #lisp 03:15:56 -!- qwebirc51335 [i=c0a314e8@gateway/web/freenode/x-fhtbmesrdkhfziud] has left #lisp 03:17:04 -!- shortsightedsid [i=c0a314e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-anqapwncsovblovs] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 03:17:18 Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:22 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 03:17:24 -!- Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 03:23:39 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:25:42 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:26:07 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:26:28 -!- j0be [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:46 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit ["I plead the fifth"] 03:34:55 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-0-131.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:28 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 03:37:44 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:30 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.131.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:55 sharad [n=s@115.99.11.92] has joined #lisp 03:42:22 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:13 -!- sharad [n=s@115.99.11.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:43:36 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zcxiobyxfsxigwtx] has joined #lisp 03:45:33 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-8-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:45:54 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:44 -!- Legooolas [n=Legooola@92.236.78.43] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:43 -!- mutew [n=mutew@128.220.251.38] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:52:35 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:58:34 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:35 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 03:59:56 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:13 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:00:24 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:03:14 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-25-174.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:32 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.54.70] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:06:50 any ASDF hacker around? 04:09:42 *stassats* is M-.ing all the way but still can't find how to record a source location in SBCL 04:13:18 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 04:16:37 stassats, grep for info-db 04:17:20 i read it, found how to do it for variables, but not for functions 04:17:23 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-132.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:17:30 actually code/*source-location*p 04:17:48 make-file-source-info ? 04:18:08 make-source-info ? 04:18:33 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:18:45 well, i want to attach it to a function, not just make it 04:18:53 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["bye bye"] 04:21:26 fix-core-source-info ? 04:22:02 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:41 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:00 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 04:26:43 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:13 and how to use it? 04:29:04 in ccl i just have (ccl:record-source-file name 'function) 04:29:07 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 04:29:22 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:32:17 Fare: not quite. 04:32:42 pkhuong, enlighten us! 04:32:44 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-199-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 04:33:02 A core object only exists during compilation (when we're not producing a FASL). 04:33:10 %code-debug-info is what you want here. 04:33:12 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:33:46 that's what in my repl right now 04:34:41 And you want to stick a (compiled-)debug-info object in there, with the source location in the SOURCE slot. 04:34:59 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 04:40:29 The documentation for debug-info structs lies; I assume that the debug slot accepts atoms instead of singleton lists. 04:44:46 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 04:55:10 lpolzer_ [n=sky@dslb-088-073-231-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:33 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:58:33 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["Asta-la byebye"] 04:59:09 -!- lpolzer [n=sky@dslb-088-073-195-156.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:59:13 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:59:23 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:59:50 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:00:04 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 05:00:42 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:39 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Client Quit] 05:06:13 nickyslash [n=user@58.246.99.114] has joined #lisp 05:06:51 saikatc_ [n=saikatc@pool-74-96-36-243.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:21 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 05:10:44 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:16:55 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:17:29 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 05:21:46 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@pool-96-231-14-194.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:46 -!- saikatc_ is now known as saikatc 05:26:56 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:29:06 morning.. 05:29:06 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 05:29:31 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:36:25 Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:37:06 Good morning! 05:37:37 Hey tic; what's up? 05:37:42 -!- Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 05:39:25 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 05:40:15 morning beach 05:40:19 hey beach. not much, just got up. Work time, I think. You? 05:40:26 and happy new month 05:41:08 oh yeah, it's Dec 1st. 05:41:17 It is, yes. 05:41:19 last month of the decade... 05:41:34 Only 45 days 'til Italy! 05:41:39 slyrus: Sorry, I didn't see your /msg the other day. This new version of ERC makes it hard to spot. 05:42:03 tic: Less than 3 weeks to Vietnam! 05:42:09 yay! 05:42:28 *tic* mumbles and shakes fist at the eternal darkness that is Sweden, winter-time 05:42:54 tic: That must be pretty bad right now. Already here, it is pretty bad. 05:43:18 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:35 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has joined #lisp 05:48:31 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-173.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 05:48:51 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:31 beach, yeah, starting to notice the effects. I hope my full-spectrum day-light bulb gets delivered soon! 05:50:08 Apparently, that works. Very popular in Finland I hear. 05:50:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-243.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:50:17 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 05:50:49 Good to hear. I ordered a low-power one, think I have to make an addt'l order for 2x32W as that's what commercial thingies use. 05:51:27 *work* 05:57:04 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-axilhenypdpmnymk] has joined #lisp 05:58:00 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zcxiobyxfsxigwtx] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:58:51 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-100-119.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:00:52 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:48 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 06:08:05 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["I'm off!"] 06:10:27 tried to figure out for 5 minutes why his read hangs, turned out i forgot a stream argument for read-line 06:10:49 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:13:29 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 06:13:34 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-axilhenypdpmnymk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:14:07 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Success] 06:14:30 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 06:18:14 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:18:41 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633779.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 06:20:42 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:09 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22:58 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 06:26:24 good morning #lisp the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language 06:26:48 only now do I see that in the topic, _and_ know what the #1= construct means :) 06:29:15 That took you some time! 06:29:22 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:30:04 beach: yes! I should read topics more often :P 06:31:09 maybe madnificent tried to print #1=(programmable . #1#) without *print-circle* set T, that takes some time 06:31:55 stassats: I never tried to evaluate it actually... I just didn't get it a year ago 06:32:32 perhaps the syntax is not explained in the PCL book 06:39:33 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:05 Legooolas [n=Legooola@92-236-78-43.cable.ubr14.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:44:12 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:48:57 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:48:59 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:50:23 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jwvpxvqnnesmkyxp] has joined #lisp 06:53:30 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:58 milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.129] has joined #lisp 06:58:34 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:01:10 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06ea5c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:22 good morning 07:01:41 good morning serichsen 07:01:43 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:04:09 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-115-57.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:04:41 Hi all 07:05:12 hello jtza8 07:06:36 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:07:16 Hi beach :) 07:08:45 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.129] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:09:28 I'm just wondering if there's a generic function which I could specialise to alter the way an object is printed? 07:09:43 clhs print-object 07:09:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm 07:09:47 clhs print-unreadable-object 07:09:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm 07:09:57 the latter is a helper macro that is usually used within print-object 07:10:06 Heh thanks tcr. 07:10:17 print-object article should include an example 07:10:47 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-122-56.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:11:09 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:15:20 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:17:39 So I have this day for some lisp hacking and there are so many things I could work on 07:18:01 I guess I'll try to release hyperdoc 07:26:32 ASau [n=user@host156-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:31:34 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 07:34:21 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:36:46 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 07:42:26 rlarson`a [n=reid08@CPE00226b5e2074-CM000e5c6ebb22.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:25 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 07:48:02 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:54 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:53:32 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:38 -!- Athas is now known as YuleAthas 07:56:13 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:56:27 mooglenorph [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:27 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:47 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 07:56:51 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:56:59 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-173.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 07:57:25 good morning 07:57:34 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:17 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 07:58:43 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:59:36 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:02:57 thom__ [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:07 j0be [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 08:06:17 angerman [n=angerman@129.187.209.224] has joined #lisp 08:06:32 hello mvilleneuve 08:07:50 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 08:08:13 stassats: I think open-system etc. should also cover the .asd file 08:09:35 alright, will you do the change? or i'll do it 08:12:42 I'd like you to do it as I'm working on hyperdoc 08:12:51 ok 08:15:37 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:16:54 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:28 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 08:17:48 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756c12.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:09 quek [n=read_eva@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 08:20:52 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:17 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:29:57 -!- Madsy^ is now known as Madsy 08:32:57 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has joined #lisp 08:41:15 tcr, stassats: there are some cases, for example in web development, where not all files belonging to a project appear in the asd file, e.g. CSS files, template files, non-lisp configuration files. I wonder whether there should or could be a slime-open-project, which interacts with both open-system (asdf) and the version control system. 08:42:26 serichsen: You can add those files as (:static-files) in your system definition 08:42:41 and ask stassats to include :static-files in the slime-asdf operations 08:43:27 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:43:51 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:44:13 i can include a superclass, source-file 08:44:32 serichsen: then write a blog post about it, and ensure it's visible from planet.lisp.org :) 08:45:15 *stassats* doesn't really use swank-asdf himself 08:45:24 stassats: superclass source-file sounds fine 08:45:39 -!- lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:45:56 ok, any more requests before i commit it? 08:46:00 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 08:46:20 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:46:21 serichsen: you then have to add a custom class for your css files etc. which inherit from source-file 08:46:32 and add them to your system definition accordingly 08:46:44 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:56 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:03 -!- lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Client Quit] 08:47:06 serichsen: You can look into named-readtables.asd on how to do that 08:47:43 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 08:49:24 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:50:36 j0be_ [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 08:51:41 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229066061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:24 bongos [i=62c281e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-ayyvoamcayvguiae] has joined #lisp 08:56:10 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 08:56:34 does anyone have an old version of LEXER lying around? the geocities web page is down: http://www.cl-user.net/asp/libs/tputils-lexer 08:56:41 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:19 i will also take a recommendation for an alternative lexer generator that is known to be working (and preferably speedy) 08:59:34 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 09:00:32 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.114.161] has joined #lisp 09:01:48 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-39.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:03:41 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:08:02 -!- j0be [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:09 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-1-97.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:17:16 Axius [n=ade@92.84.12.49] has joined #lisp 09:19:52 does anyone know how to use the lalr parser generator? 09:21:21 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:25:51 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:58 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.77.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:30:10 -!- j0be_ [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"] 09:31:14 gonzojive: geocities is down as a whole, iirc 09:31:27 tons of good stuff disappeared 09:31:51 p_l, like what? 09:34:10 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.12.49] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:34:38 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.79.151] has joined #lisp 09:34:47 Good morning! 09:39:58 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:40:02 hello 09:40:42 bongos: There was a lot of old, oft-forgotten code, information etc. that was still very useful 09:42:43 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:05 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:47:31 anyone any experience with cl-png, it seems to take a considerable amount of time to load a relatively (150kb) small file 09:48:07 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:48:37 the words you're looking for are "does" and "have" 09:49:33 nothing constructive to do ralith? 09:51:04 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 09:51:27 plenty 09:51:30 but pet peeves take priority 09:51:40 aeron [n=aerrant_@129.101.136.195] has joined #lisp 09:51:41 you also should have used a ? instead of a , 09:51:54 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:51 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:00:11 pjb [n=t@18.Red-88-30-107.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:22 snearch_ [n=olaf@e179131103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:33 Dodek_ [n=dodek@sandbox.dbc.wroc.pl] has joined #lisp 10:02:47 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:03:27 -!- frodef [n=frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:54 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:09:27 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.114.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:29 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:09:42 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.114.161] has joined #lisp 10:10:04 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:34 -!- quek [n=read_eva@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:13:16 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-203-51.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:30 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-1-97.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:46 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-4-203.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:16:03 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:18:15 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D504.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:30 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:18:44 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 10:24:46 -!- ASau [n=user@host156-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["reboot"] 10:27:44 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:33:32 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:35:12 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@wavelan-208.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 10:40:54 Guthur: i don't know about cl-png, but maybe png-read by ramarren is faster. 10:42:33 tcr, stassats: source-files can also be binary, according to the asdf manual. Most likely, one wouldn't want to open those. I would propose a (defclass editable-source-file (source-file)), but this logically would belong into the inheritance chain inside asdf, so that cl-source-file etc. inherit from that instead of source-file directly. I don't know whether asdf is supposed to cater to such a requirement. 10:44:44 Xach cheers 10:44:51 Let people work on it who are bitten by this. :-) 10:45:06 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 10:45:14 Or yeah, post to the asdf list and ask for advice 10:45:48 perhaps it's saner to scratch that property of source-files, and instead introduce a new binary-file class 10:46:09 or perhaps a binary-source-file which inherits from source-file 10:48:04 z2- [n=z2@cable-202-8-242-134.d-one.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:06 tcr: (defclass binary-source-file (source-file)) would be worse for slime-open-system, because it would have to use source-file and then exclude binary-source-file afterwards 10:48:14 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:48:31 why is that worse? 10:49:01 Perhaps a editable-mixin is the way to go because it's more future proof 10:54:43 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:55:51 tcr: (regarding why worse) imagine how the typecase form in asdf-module-files (swank-asdf.lisp) would have to look like 10:56:39 (and source-file (not binary-source-file)) ? 10:56:51 ASau [n=user@host156-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 10:57:26 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:57:32 heh, I didn't know you can do that in a typecase :) 10:58:26 anyway, the mixin idea sounds right 11:00:50 s/typecase/type specifier/ -- I have so much to learn... -_- 11:07:55 -!- addled [i=51269b15@gateway/web/freenode/x-cedcnsgnjdljyyzy] has quit ["Page closed"] 11:08:35 addled [i=51269b15@gateway/web/freenode/x-wzlstckpdtlvnjvp] has joined #lisp 11:08:35 -!- ASau [n=user@host156-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:49 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 11:11:19 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@wavelan-208.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:27 -!- nickyslash [n=user@58.246.99.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:13:50 tic: Those there lisp meetings you are trying to get going up in gothenburg. Will time and date be posted on the list? 11:14:05 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:20:24 serichsen: why wouldn't one want to open binary source files? 11:21:17 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 11:23:33 Would you? 11:23:47 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-4-161.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:24:05 ASau [n=user@host156-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 11:24:18 if it's a _source file_.. sure.. I would assume that there is an appropriate view/edit mode 11:25:09 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:25:16 I haven't look at the class graph of asdf but I supposed it's source in the sense that something else depends on it 11:26:50 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 11:27:18 schme, yeah, if I manage to make a Lisp meeting. 11:28:41 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:30:03 tcr: wouldn't that be a component? 11:30:32 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 11:31:20 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-59-183.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:45 tic: do it! 11:31:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 11:33:00 Xach, suggestions for a good theme? (I'm thinking I could invite Lisp-curious people.) 11:33:36 hello 11:35:41 tic: The design and implementation of Gerd's PCL 11:36:12 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:20 can one special a method on an array containing a certain type 11:36:28 specialise* 11:36:31 no 11:36:41 unless it's, say, a string ;) 11:37:05 nope unfortunately not 11:37:18 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 11:38:23 Hm, might be interesting to build a custom specializers SUBTYPEP 11:38:38 predicate dispatch? 11:38:57 no, subtypep works on type specifiers 11:39:14 so can write his function as (foo-dispatch array (array-element-type array)) 11:39:34 isn't it equivalent to predicate dispatch? 11:39:44 and dispatch on it via (defmethod foo-dispatch ((array array) (element-type (subtypep 'unsigned-byte))) 11:39:47 (remember SATISFIES) 11:39:59 Heh 11:40:20 tic: Cools. I am hoping I will have the opportunity to head up there if/when the time comes :) 11:41:48 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-8-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:42:05 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-8-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:42:17 I think you meant typep anyway.. subtypep is a predicate for a relation between two types 11:43:10 schme, that would be great fun! 11:43:22 adeht: No look at my example 11:43:24 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:28 Xach, Gerd's PCL - is that's what SBCL's using? 11:43:42 tic: Yup. 'twould. 11:43:52 tic: It's Gregor's PCL with Gerd's optimizations 11:43:53 I might have to cover PCL first. Maybe that's a good start, actually. (unlike the other "OO" writeup I did the other year. *cough*) 11:44:02 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-161-25.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:11 tcr: I see 11:45:04 -!- Dodek_ [n=dodek@sandbox.dbc.wroc.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:45:38 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-36-195.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:46:38 another specialisation question, is there a way to specify a default method 11:47:08 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:47:27 all objects are subclasses of T 11:47:49 tcr, where is that version of PCL used? 11:47:59 will it only try to match that after exhausting all other possibilities 11:48:32 yes, it's last in the precedence list 11:48:46 great, thanks adeht 11:50:06 heh, that "all objects" statements was blatantly false :) 11:50:55 hey. who was it who had a version of Double Tetris to show me running on a mac? 11:52:28 lispm? 11:52:35 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:39 yes 11:53:07 running on a Lisp Machine, though 11:56:21 oh ok. lispm, if you'd like, i'd cover it on the blog with a screenshot... know anything about the program or when it was written? 11:57:01 aintme [n=Miranda@70.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:57:02 I would need to send you a smaller screenshot, give me some time to do that 11:57:08 -!- schme is now known as schmx 11:57:41 the original code is from here: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/fun/0.html 11:58:06 it was written for a TI Explorer Lisp Machine and then ported to the Symbolics 11:58:23 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:58:36 I made sure that it runs also with a display of X11 (not only with a native console) 12:00:14 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jwvpxvqnnesmkyxp] has left #lisp 12:01:10 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-227-204.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:45 -!- ASau [n=user@host156-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:06:42 -!- bongos [i=62c281e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-ayyvoamcayvguiae] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 12:06:52 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:07:44 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:09:31 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has joined #lisp 12:09:45 G'morning all. 12:12:54 nyef: morning 12:13:15 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:13:53 hi nyef 12:15:28 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 12:16:46 what is special about simple-arrays that they can't be used where sequence is desired eg length 12:17:13 simple-arrays can have more than one dimension 12:17:31 ah ok, cheers xof 12:17:44 lispm: wonderful :) thank you 12:20:53 the smaller screenshot 12:20:57 http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/lispm-double-tetris-smaller.png 12:21:09 -!- aintme [n=Miranda@70.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 12:22:16 written by John Nguyen, based on an early version by Joe Morrison, ported to Symbolics by Claus Riemann 12:22:22 ;-) 12:23:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:24:33 these people knew how to spend their time with a $100000 personal computer 12:24:41 Hehe 12:25:32 What else would you do with a $100000 personal computer, anyway 12:25:49 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 12:25:49 Jafet: Make "expert systems", of course. 12:26:18 Jafet: compute 'life' generations 12:26:39 ASau [n=user@host186-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 12:26:48 Ah, that weird Gosper 12:26:59 hehe 12:27:46 lispm: i'm gonna compare it to what i do with a $300 personal computer and Lisp :) 12:27:59 as a commentary on how the graphics have evolved 12:28:06 but how classic games don't die 12:28:34 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:29:03 I guess they could have done better games on the more advanced machines 12:29:18 dto: I started working on a geodefense clone thingy a few weeks ago.. got most of the basic stuff done 12:29:39 there is an expensive frame buffer, called 'FrameThrower', which could do all kinds of magic 12:29:48 including HDTV genlock 12:29:54 adeht: hi. what's geodefense? missille command 2600? 12:30:00 lispm: what is genlock 12:30:20 overlaying video with animations 12:30:32 dto: nah, famous tower defense game for iphone/ipod touch 12:30:43 it could do frame grabbing, had programmable processors for that 12:30:51 adeht: want to enter the FLGC? 12:31:31 dto: a google search suggests that I don't :) 12:31:32 dto: a description of the 'FrameThrower': http://lispm.dyndns.org/symbolics-1.html 12:31:35 "FLGC"? 12:31:45 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A7D35.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:32:02 adeht: Friendly Lisp Games Competition!!!! 12:32:10 adeht: just googled, that's hilarious :) 12:32:23 dto: output looked like this: http://lispm.dyndns.org/symbolics-2.html 12:32:26 what about Fort Lauderdale Garden Club ? :) 12:32:29 *nyef* prepares to start hacking SBCL calling convention junk. 12:32:49 hey i like how it says Symbolics Systemhaus 12:32:56 Systemhaus is a great electronic music band name 12:33:09 that was the german branch 12:33:26 dto: lemme read up on it 12:33:29 that's awesome. i always go gaga over symbolics stuff. 12:33:52 adeht: see http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/2009/11/lisp-games-compo.html 12:34:03 adeht: there's hardly any rules 12:34:41 and no judging phase, just a play/discussion/commentary/feedback period. all constructive and friendly. 12:35:30 Hrm... A week, including asset creation? 12:36:02 7 days is a pretty popular compo time limit 12:36:08 I guess you could finesse that with an asset library, though... 12:36:35 dto: it sounds cool, though I really don't have too much experience writing games (wrote a few simple ones through the years...) 12:36:36 libraries are allowed. 12:37:10 adeht: neither do i :) why not see what you can come up with? 12:37:12 The bit that frightens me, as always, is asset creation, particularly images. 12:37:31 nyef: vector graphics 12:38:00 DTO: maybe you like this video then: 12:38:01 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8612534856516244040# 12:38:09 though I guess it's still hard to do good vector graphics :) 12:38:30 demos the Symbolics graphics stuff in length, mid 80 12:38:36 I think I'd better finish playing stupid-lowtag-tricks before I start in on something like that. 12:38:57 lispm: i can't get that video to work right now, but will check it out later :) 12:39:29 lispm: anything else you want me to include in the blog post about tetris? is that 2 player or 1 player controlling both boards, or what? anything special or cool i should mention? 12:39:48 both players share a keyboard 12:39:51 -!- z2- [n=z2@cable-202-8-242-134.d-one.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:40:06 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CE20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:15 since the original keyboard has unlimited rollover, both can really play with one keyboard 12:40:17 benny [n=benny@i577A287E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:54 it is written using Flavors, a precursor of CLOS 12:41:17 that's it basically 12:41:56 wow. 12:42:07 i should look at the source. 12:42:20 i'm a lisp newbie, having only started in 2003 12:43:17 Flavors is... interesting, though I have more experience with the nature of its implementation on Explorer hardware. 12:43:36 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:43:43 What do you find interesting about it? 12:44:17 .oO( How about a port of Microsoft's "Space Cadet" pinball ) 12:44:29 There's a special kind of array, supported in microcode, called a "funcallable hash-array", which does a hash lookup of its first parameter to find the actual function to invoke. 12:44:48 hmm 12:45:11 sounds like single-dispatch, no? 12:45:11 It's single-dispatch over an EQ-specializer on the first argument, basically. 12:45:16 Jafet: haven't tried pinball yet. might be useful for testing squirl, the physics library being developed by some #lispgames folk 12:45:40 ah, yeah, eq-specializer. sounds... interesting, indeed. Any ideas what you could do with it? 12:45:46 There are so many insane things in LispM hardware and software... 12:46:17 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:46:21 It was for things like (send stream :fresh-line), or (send stream :output-string "foo") 12:46:38 Basically gave you about smalltalk-level dispatch. 12:47:47 Okay, looks like it's going to be easier to have funcalling work in terms of fixnums than in terms of (ash 1 word-shift). 12:48:44 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:26 How would you implement subtypes of lists, in particular weak lists? 12:50:56 I really must look at clisp's implementation of them. 12:51:04 They probably have their own tag bit? 12:51:07 weak -lists-? 12:51:24 You can't have any of my lowtags! 12:51:52 Well :-) 12:53:50 I wonder if I should make hyperdoc just include hyperspec-lookup or make it depend on it? 12:54:23 *nyef* sighs. 12:54:29 Okay, that won't work. 12:54:44 Just tried to replace an (inst sub rsp-tn nargs) with an LEA. 12:55:07 Since I could use :index nargs :scale (ash 1 (- word-shift n-fixnum-tag-bits)) in the EA. 12:55:17 But, of course, LEA is add-only. 12:56:22 (Yes, I know that word-shift is normally equal to n-fixnum-tag-bits, but I'm trying to vary that.) 12:58:34 nyef: cant lea add negative immedate? 12:58:44 lharc: it can 12:58:55 It can, but the problem is that the value needing negation is in a register. 13:01:00 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:02:51 YuleAthas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:03:32 oh, "grep lea *.lisp | grep index | grep -v make-ea" returns no INST usage result, why isn't lea wrapped in a macro covering make-ea? 13:04:48 Because it fits better with the mental model that developers have of how LEA works for it not to be. 13:04:52 Anyone knows how clhs-lookup (the one with the LOOP Of Doom) and hyperspec-lookup relate to each other? 13:05:03 p0a [n=user@athedsl-384738.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:05:10 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:05:11 Hello how to manipulate a table? (cell/rows)? 13:05:56 p0a pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91337 13:06:16 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:06:18 something to make for mapcar-add 13:07:09 p0a: I have a silly print-table hack I wrote the other day, if you're interested 13:07:38 sure 13:09:05 YuleAtha` [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:09:36 adeht pasted "print-table" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91338 13:09:52 also has a bonus wrap-string hack! 13:10:00 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:52 Alot of instructions seems to take make-ea results, so I guess it makes no sense setting up macros that all do the same thing but for different instructions. 13:11:19 -!- YuleAtha` is now known as YuleAthas` 13:13:32 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:17:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:17:39 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:18:40 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:19:53 YuleAtha` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 13:21:18 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:10 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@e179131103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:23:25 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.33] has joined #lisp 13:26:45 -!- YuleAthas` [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:26:56 lharc: many instructions on x86 have memory/register or register/memory variants. 13:30:34 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:31:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:36:08 -!- YuleAtha` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:38:03 Okay, time to see if I've managed to find all the places that abuse n-fixnum-tag-bits = word-shift and n-fixnum-tag-bits = (1- n-lowtag-bits). 13:39:59 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:19 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:27 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 13:47:40 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-132.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:18 ... guess not. :-/ 13:49:26 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-132.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:49:32 M-x slime-edit-who-abuses 13:50:06 Still, it's nice to have an internal error to deal with instead of somehow ending up in the infinite error protector calling %PRIMITIVE HALT. 13:51:07 nyef: push your branch somewhere when you're tired, I'm going to need some distraction soon. 13:51:25 *pkhuong* learned via easychair that his advisor was looking for results rather soonish ;) 13:51:38 Sure, though I think I'd like to clean it up some, first. 13:52:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:51 The first patch in this branch needs ammending, there are two separate sets of LDB fixes, there's the deconflation of (1- n-lowtag-bits), word-shift and n-fixnum-tag-bits, and then there's the actual allocation of additional fixnum tags. 13:54:14 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 13:55:07 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:57:45 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@122.181.150.106] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:58:04 nyef: so what immediate lowtag does that leave us? 13:58:22 How do you mean? 13:59:07 cant you (inst lea X (make-ea :dword :base X ...)? ie, src dst is same register 13:59:23 lharc: Yes, but I don't see how it helps at this point. 14:00:44 nyef: not in your case :), I'm wandering around in arith.lisp and vop fast-+/fixnum=>fixnum looks funny that location= is only used over lea path, not move+add path 14:01:03 lharc: what would the point be? 14:01:19 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:01:50 pkhuong: just learning point. If it is possible then that location= has an other purpose. 14:02:00 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:37 lharc: if x and r are actually the same location, it's simpler (and uses fewer bytes) to ADD. 14:03:04 nyef: after your wider fixnum patch, what immediate lowtags do we have? xx10, of which we use one for character and one for single floats? 14:04:06 pkhuong: yes, but I dont understand why the move is there then, why not add r y, instead of move r x + add r y? 14:04:12 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:04:33 lharc: look at the condition; we could hit the move/add sequence for a whole bunch of other reasons. 14:05:12 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:15 It's simpler to think of move/add as the default, clearly right, case. Now notice that MOVE assembles to nothing when the source and destination are the same location. 14:05:20 You still have the same number of immediate-lowtags, which is four on 64-bit architectures (two on 32-bit architectures), netting you the same number of 8-bit widetags on both platforms. 14:06:36 pkhuong: ah thats clever, I was going to suggest "why not a final cond clause that matches location=", but move fixes it as you said. 14:07:38 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:40 What I did was notice that there are four pointer lowtags and four other-immediate lowtags on 64-bit, and that the constraints were that all of the immediate lowtags had to have the same two bits on the low end and that two of the pointer tags had to differ by some fixed value due to the list/other-pointer thing. 14:08:00 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:08:09 So, why not shift things around so that all of the non-fixnum tags have the low bit set? 14:08:36 ok, so that's what the pad?-lowtag were for. 14:08:42 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:45 piso__ [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:53 Yeah, the pad lowtags were basically to keep everything aligned. 14:09:25 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633779.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:09:39 So once they were distributed on the non-fixnum-but-still-low-bit-clear space there was the opportunity to make them fixnum tags instead. 14:09:48 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:15 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:10:27 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 14:10:37 Okay, I'm fairly sure that more-kw-arg isn't wrong... 14:10:52 62-bit fixnums? 14:11:02 pkhuong: I have a branch for you to mess around with if you're bored 14:11:21 Xof: 63-bit, but I'm thinking to make it easy enough to reclaim two of those tags. 14:11:31 http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl.git;a=summary 14:11:31 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054054038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Operation timed out] 14:12:45 Ah, the (satisfies array-displacement) stuff? 14:13:33 Okay, if I didn't screw up %more-kw-arg, but it's screwing up from a bogus keyword, where else could I have gone wrong? 14:13:45 copy-more-arg? 14:13:52 nyef: 63? So we lose (logbitp 0 address) => pointerp? 14:14:12 pkhuong: We'd have to lose that anyway. 14:14:46 I have it down as (obj & 3) == 3 in runtime.h. 14:15:47 And I also took advantage of the distribution of other-immediate tags and changed other_immediate_lowtag_p to (lowtag_of(header) & 3) == OTHER_IMMEDIATE_0_LOWTAG. 14:16:07 Which saves a few lines, and doesn't involve multiple comparisons, and doesn't involve two #ifdefs. 14:16:30 lispm [n=joswig@g224120079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:50 prxq [n=mommer@g227081089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:53 Xof: I read that. I also remember saying that we want loop invariant hoisting and scalarisation for good codegen on fill-pointered vectors ;) It's probably possible to introduce more special cases, but the "right way" needs for someone to put his thinking cap on and decide exactly how things should happen with threads. 14:17:39 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:17:44 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:14 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.79.151] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:24:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:24:33 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:39 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756c12.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:42 well, slime update broke my local REPL keybindings.. any hint on how I can fix it? 14:25:45 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:05 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:26:25 rrice [n=rrice@76.211.17.68] has joined #lisp 14:26:53 isomer [n=isomer@CPE00226b8ab7f9-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:04 "This time for sure!" 14:30:06 adeht: they refactored stuff into a new keymap 14:30:58 cmm: I don't know why it makes a difference.. I do local-set-key in a repl-mode-hook 14:32:38 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 14:35:40 ziga` [n=user@BSN-176-221-153.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:02 "whatever is currently trunk" strikes again! 14:36:16 hmm... I probably won't finish my "Lisp kit" before tommorrow, but I think I've got enough components to start... 14:37:54 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:43:39 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.114] has joined #lisp 14:44:34 Anyone on Linux want to test an Ogre (3D engine) & GTK executable? (SBCL saved image) 14:44:51 aerique: i do! i do! 14:45:04 me! 14:45:33 It's a very first try so you're mainly going to find out which libraries are missing :) 14:45:40 http://www.xs4all.nl/~euqirea/DUMP/fractal-explorer-0.1a.tar.bz2 14:46:01 *Xach* snarfs 14:46:29 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:46:30 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:46:34 j0be [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 14:46:42 Hrm. Unbound symbol. At least it got through to typecheckfuns. 14:47:03 If it does startup: there's a bit of a delay before anything is displayed, the progressbar isn't working. 14:47:08 Q: i want a list of (0 1 2 3) generated by a function, any shortcut for this? can;t find it. sry 14:47:13 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:19 dang, no osicat on this computer. 14:47:25 j0be: (loop for i below 4 collect i) 14:47:29 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:47:41 tic: good point, i should skip linedit when distributing. thanks :) 14:47:48 same here: no osicat. 14:48:12 tic, Xach: don't install it, i'll make an image without it 14:48:35 Xach: perfect, thanks! 14:48:42 too late :( 14:48:44 what(): OGRE EXCEPTION(3:RenderingAPIException): Invalid parentWindowHandle (wrong server or screen) in GLXWindow::create at OgreGLXWindow.cpp (line 226) 14:48:52 does anyone know what parts of the mop are 'reflection', since the definition of reflection appears to be quite rude 14:49:03 "rude"? 14:49:10 crude then? 14:49:31 fuzzy 14:49:51 All of MOP is reflection I'd say 14:49:54 aerique, glxgears run properly (nvidia drivers), so I don't see why Ogre would barf at me like that. 14:50:11 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:26 PissedNumlock: Why do you care? 14:51:06 have to write a paper about a feature of an OO language, and decided I wanted something for Lisp 14:51:22 tic: Ogre needs hardware acceleration, what does 'glxinfo | grep "OpenGL "' say? 14:51:30 and they suggested I looked at reflection in Lisp 14:51:48 tic: oh wait, you said nvidia drivers 14:52:01 aerique, bunch of things. no extensions, vendor nvidia / renderer quadro, version 2.1.2 nvidia 180.51. 14:52:05 Yeah. :-) 14:52:32 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:52:43 tic: interesting message that i don't know how to solve right away :) thanks 14:52:50 PissedNumlock, I think you should define reflection. 14:53:20 aerique, I'm in ldb. do you want anything? 14:54:27 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:54:52 tic: just a stacktrace for now (aerique@xs4all.nl) 14:55:07 tic: i 14:55:08 aerique, how do I produce a stacktrace? 14:55:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:36 tic: sorry, i meant backtrace 14:55:39 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A287E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:55:47 well, same thing there. :-) 14:55:47 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:56:00 ah, nevermind. 14:56:08 tic: found it? :) 14:56:11 Heh. That was rather useless. 14:57:10 tic pasted "run-fractal crash" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91344 14:57:16 I pasted it instead, e-mail breaks lines 14:57:27 want me to send you the paste URL in an e-mail? 14:57:46 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 14:58:14 tic: no thanks, i got it 14:58:30 Undefined alien gdk_foo. It *should* find those, as it doesn't complain about not finding the related .sos 14:59:47 tic: what version are your GTK libs at? 15:00:15 I have a crapload of them. Hrm.. 15:00:45 qeek [n=jez@host81-156-214-134.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:03 tic annotated #91344 "glibs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91344#1 15:01:16 tic: i didn't realise i could backtrace in ldb for a long time :) 15:01:36 aerique, alas, this one didn't really give you much useful info though, did it? 15:02:42 tic: no, but thanks anyway. maybe i'll should just include gtk libs as well.. but where does one stop? 15:02:49 pkhuong: you can have your invariant hoisting when I actually get funded time on this 15:02:57 until then you have to put up with special cases in the type system 15:03:06 aerique, at a VMWare image. ;-) 15:03:43 aerique, or, produce builds for different library setups. typically, Linux distros tend to have the same system library versions. 15:03:54 -!- qeek [n=jez@host81-156-214-134.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 15:04:09 internal error #26 (An attempt was made to use an undefined SYMBOL-VALUE.) 15:04:09 SC: 21, Offset: 0 $1= 0x100273086f: other pointer 15:04:15 I think I'm a little happier now. 15:04:28 tic: yeah, i'll need to think this through. anyway, thanks for the test.. back to the drawing board for me :) 15:04:36 Xach: same story for you? 15:04:57 but it should be possible now to do at least some inference and make fill-pointered things in the same function body not suck too much 15:04:58 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:04:59 aerique, no problem! good luck. 15:05:08 aerique: havne't tried it again 15:05:19 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:25 Xach: Could you continue through the restarts like tic did in his paste please? 15:07:49 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit ["home, food, meeting, bar"] 15:09:41 no libstdc++.so.6 15:10:12 can't look further, sorry. 15:10:15 pkhuong: not actually special-cases, incidentally; they're just information that the surface of CL type specifiers make it somewhat tricky to express. I don't think there's anything special-casey about tracking the displacedness of an array type 15:10:31 Xach: no problem, it's helpful 15:13:06 sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:14:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:15:04 Heh. So, if an AVER fails before packages are set up, you end up with an access to an unbound symbol from find-package because it gets called by %failed-aver. 15:16:30 milanj [n=milan@109.93.32.149] has joined #lisp 15:18:16 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:14 -!- drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [] 15:24:20 j0be: (make-list :initial-element '(0 1 2 3)) gives you a list of (0 1 2 3) of length . 15:24:39 pjb: thanks 15:24:53 And make-list is a function ;-) 15:25:24 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:33:55 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-192-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:16 pjb: I don't think that that is what he meant ;) 15:35:00 at least it didn't delete all his files and provide an example for dorks to cite for years to come 15:37:22 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 15:38:27 however, demons flew out of his nose 15:38:29 serichsen: right, I missed his answer to Xach. 15:39:12 Sure, you have to be careful with this list... :-) 15:41:13 pjb: (make-list 4 :initial-element '(0 1 2 3)) => ((0 1 2 3) (0 1 2 3) (0 1 2 3) (0 1 2 3)) 15:42:21 Xach: isn't that what I've written (s//4)? 15:42:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:43:13 pjb: It wasn't especially clear to me that you intended :initial-element instead of :initial-contents. 15:43:31 *Xach* has swapped those accidentally in the past, and thought it was possible others did the same 15:43:32 daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 15:44:05 is there a lisp bot I can ask about learning resources? 15:44:06 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:11 !books 15:44:12 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:14 Xach: for make-array, but not for make-list. 15:44:20 minion: pcl? 15:44:21 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:44:22 daedra: http://cliki.net/ 15:44:27 ah minion 15:44:29 daedra: ti's rather a "static" bot ;-) 15:44:37 thanks 15:44:43 daedra: http://cliki.net/Education 15:44:56 :D 15:45:03 I love irc 15:45:10 well freenode 15:45:19 well, #lisp 15:45:47 the programming channels generally seem to be very useful 15:46:04 pjb: Ah, ok. 15:46:20 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:46:51 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-25-206.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:47:19 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:48:24 -!- slotsirar [n=user@91.190.137.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:31 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:55:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:22 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:57:05 nyef: Is there some preferred instruction set online reference that you use? 15:57:44 No, I usually just pull pdfs and use those, or actual books. 15:58:09 I'm contemplating adding a hyperdoc-entry for sb-vm 15:58:32 so you can get to the reference by key press from within Slime 15:58:38 *lispm* wears his badge 15:58:38 benny [n=benny@i577A287E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:10 lispm: does it have an asterisk and small print that mentions you earned it through a timezone accident? 15:59:30 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:59:33 he! 15:59:48 *lispm* gets up early 16:00:53 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:57 tcr: pdf2html might be doable. 16:01:13 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:01:28 So, it occurs to me that I could make a test suite for this calling-convention junk by taking an after-xc-core, cross-compiling a test file, and making a cold-core with -just that file-. 16:01:40 Well, just that file and the assembler-routines. 16:02:05 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:53 Does anyone know the history of why Lisp time zones are reversed from normal? 16:03:04 is it possible to use ldopen & co from within sbcl? 16:03:13 prxq: Yes. 16:03:31 pkhuong: I found this: http://siyobik.info/index.php?module=x86 16:03:42 I like the lambda at the top :-) is it any good? 16:03:50 E.g. in California the timezone is UTC-8 but in Lisp it's +8 16:03:53 (What do you think load-shared-object is based on?) 16:03:54 nyef: that's great. :-) 16:04:00 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:36 nyef: obviously, but I don't think it is obvious that using it as a user does not mess up things 16:04:37 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:42 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-8-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:56 e_0r [n=e_0r@c-98-192-38-115.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:06 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:05:58 nyef: my question was whether it messes up things and destabilizes the instance. 16:06:03 tcr: looks good, for x86 (and probably good enough for x86-64 too). 16:06:40 -!- e_0r [n=e_0r@c-98-192-38-115.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:41 pkhuong: unfortunately it's indexed by numbers not by an instruction's name 16:07:04 tcr: I'd want an offline version anyway (: 16:07:10 errkle [n=errkle@c-98-192-38-115.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:20 tcr: The real trick would be to make it work for arbitrary backends, not merely whatever you have running. 16:07:58 pkhuong: I scratched the static indexing feature of hyperdoc for the time being 16:08:05 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:08:17 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 16:08:24 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:09:16 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 16:10:10 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:11:16 Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-114-173.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 16:11:20 -!- daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #lisp 16:12:47 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:12:56 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:20:22 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:23:02 -!- koning_r1bot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:24:53 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:27 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-89-241.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 16:27:58 ... You know what'd be nice? A trace-file mode for emacs. Something that puts a bar across the top of the window saying which component the cursor is in, has commands to jump forward and backwards in components, to skip between the IR1, IR2 and VOP representations of the same place, to open up a VOP definition, etc. 16:28:00 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-89-241.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:00 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 16:31:12 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:32:44 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:33:47 M-. on vop definition is not hard, that's something define-vop just has to arrange for 16:33:47 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756c12.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:58 I think it may in fact work on vops 16:34:18 Probably does work on vops. 16:34:49 I might make a stab at an initial version in a bit. 16:34:57 it does not work in instructions though :-) 16:35:01 on 16:35:04 Once I figure out this #@$@% more-arg thing. 16:35:14 At least, I think it's a more-arg thing. 16:35:46 M-. on defknowns would be nice 16:37:26 and as long as I'm dreaming, what about M-. on ftype, type and special declamations 16:37:48 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:37:57 Okay, I have a situation where a hash table created with (make-hash-table :test 'equal) has no hash-table-index-vector. 16:38:40 If I haven't broken the calling convention, what else could I have screwed up? 16:38:44 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 16:40:06 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:41:39 nyef: GC? 16:41:58 No, this is happening during typecheckfuns initialization, which is -way- pre-gc. 16:42:49 I think I might have managed to screw allocation somehow. 16:44:17 Agh! allocate-vector-on-heap assumes that n-fixnum-tag-bits is word-shift. 16:44:27 heh 16:44:32 This is going to be -everywhere-. 16:45:54 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-132.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:46:10 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:46:47 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:47:21 -!- archangelpetro [n=petro@cpc2-oxfd19-2-0-cust1010.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:21 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-114-173.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:52:16 Good evening! 16:52:44 Hello beach. 16:53:55 hi beach 16:54:01 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:48 my goodness, nyef, what hacking are you at now? 16:55:21 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:34 froydnj: 63-bit fixnums! 16:56:18 whee! 16:56:38 *froydnj* noticed some fixnum-tag-mask badness in various backends 16:56:55 The collateral damage from this has been interesting. Fixed a couple things in LDB, for example, and I found some lossage in ROOM that I haven't bothered with yet... 16:57:16 The thing is, this only affects the x86-64 backend for now, as we don't have any other true 64-bit backends. 16:57:31 (Though converting the alpha backend to allow for both might be interesting.) 16:58:02 I got most of the way there, 6 years ago *sob* 16:58:03 fourth time's the charm 16:58:12 tcr: I know the siyobik dude, I can ask him for indexing by name and tgz of the data 16:58:46 oh, so not 31-bit fixnums on 32-bit platforms; 64-bit only? 16:59:02 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:15 froydnj: Why is that important? 16:59:37 beach: which? 64-bit only? I was just asking for clarification 17:00:06 Yeah, can't do it on 32-bit because we have four pointer lowtags. 17:00:17 If you can knock that down to two, though... 17:00:26 *nyef* sighs. 17:00:36 Okay, that didn't get any further. 17:00:53 froydnj: Oh, I see what you are asking now. Sorry, I misunderstood. 17:01:12 I suppose you could have odd/even fixnum, list, widetag escape for 32-bit 17:02:00 You basically have to collapse the instance-pointer and fun-pointer lowtags into, say, other-pointer. 17:02:11 yeah, exactly. 17:02:20 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:02:46 Actually, you could probably get away with that, GC-wise. 17:03:44 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:48 it makes various type checks rather more expensive 17:04:17 Yeah, I figured it'd be something like that. 17:05:51 The other thing you could do is double the allocation alignment on 32-bit, which would let you scare up an extra tag bit. 17:06:21 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:06:32 which might valuable for SSE arrays 17:06:38 but wastes a lot of space =/ 17:06:38 There you go! 17:06:48 How much is "a lot"? 17:06:49 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:20 two words per cons? 17:07:23 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 17:07:34 Jabberwockey [n=jens@mue-88-130-116-101.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:38 Yeah, but that then matters only in proportion to the number of conses in core. 17:07:48 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:07:54 9,222,800 bytes for 576,425 cons objects. 17:08:13 ~half the core on a newly-started slime sbcl 17:08:24 wait, sorry, a quarter of dynamic space 17:08:42 Plus, if you can collapse away either fun-pointer or instance-pointer, you can have two list tags, which will get you back to two words/cons again. 17:08:53 even a quarter sounds outrageous 17:08:53 that is a good point 17:09:22 jsnell raises a good point too 17:09:49 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:09:53 And remember that this will need to be debugged on all 32-bit targets. 17:09:59 oh but that's part of the fun 17:10:00 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:10:03 I bet. 17:10:19 I'll just point out that the only 32-bit target I have available to me right now is x86. 17:10:47 a newly started 64-bit sbcl says 17:10:51 we have a buildbot farm 17:10:51 Maybe we could have a :wider-fixnums build feature for the backends that have been fixed up for this. 17:11:05 43,096,352 bytes for dynamic space 17:11:12 9,159,152 bytes for 572,447 cons objects. 17:11:30 ok, so a fifth-ish 17:11:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:12:01 I can do ppc (quickly), sparc (fiddly), and mips (slowly) if need be 17:12:21 Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-114-173.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 17:12:44 I can do ppc as well 17:12:59 but I can see this not being an unambiguous win for all applications 17:13:09 actually I'm not sure what a 31-bit fixnum buys us over a 30-bit fixnum 17:13:29 rearranging the 64-bit widetags seems uncontroversial in comparison 17:14:15 Actually, I bet specialized array types will be interesting. 17:14:55 ... Maybe not. I'm mixing it up with unsigned-byte 31/63. 17:15:11 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:15:14 no, you shouldn't discover any new dragons 17:17:15 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:30 I'm going to get burned by TLS indexes as soon as I re-enable threading, aren't I? 17:18:37 are there issues with storing symbol-function as an actual slot in the symbol aside from the increased storage for symbols? 17:18:38 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has left #lisp 17:19:36 -!- piso__ is now known as piso 17:20:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:10 What would this do for macro-functions, and what happens with functions with more complex names? 17:20:20 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:20:24 hm. 17:21:22 well, macro-functions are separate 17:22:48 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:22:50 Oh, and is it on threaded or non-threaded builds that you have increased storage? 17:23:09 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:24:31 threaded (spare word at the end due to alignment) 17:25:28 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:26:36 <_deepfire> Xof, well, the buildslaves are AWOL, mostly 17:26:46 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 17:27:35 <_deepfire> I need to re-whip into obediences my own x86-46/sbcl ones, even. 17:27:42 <_deepfire> *obedience 17:28:57 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:22 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:31:27 Okay, that's allocation sorted out, I think... 17:32:25 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:43 (I hope...) 17:35:34 Is there a method, given an object, to give all the classes that inherit that object? 17:35:41 errr all the superclasses of that object 17:36:01 You mean something like the class-precendence-list, only not necessarily in order? 17:36:09 s/cend/ced/ 17:36:37 Yeah, pretty much. I'm not too worried about the order, just all the superclasses of something. 17:38:12 So, (sb-mop:class-precedence-list (find-class 'sb-impl::fd-stream)) returns something possibly-useful-looking. 17:38:15 how does one retrieve the inferred type of a function in SBCL? 17:38:38 levente_meszaros: For your own use, DESCRIBE probably does the trick. 17:39:16 er, I need in partial eval 17:39:26 Ah. 17:39:29 Not sure. 17:39:39 Maybe something involving sb-c:info ? 17:40:16 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-227-204.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:38 sb-impl::%fun-type maybe 17:40:55 I can't remember how clever that is 17:41:01 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:41:13 (sb-impl::%fun-type (fdefinition 'list)) ->(FUNCTION (&REST T) *) 17:41:16 not much :) 17:41:27 Maybe you need to enable function type derivation? 17:41:42 and how do I do that? 17:42:48 Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:50 -!- Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 17:43:29 Probably something to do with sb-c:*derive-function-types*. 17:43:42 I'm guessing here, based on stuff I don't pay much attention to. 17:44:26 levente_meszaros: the system doesn't need to infer list's type 17:44:48 (defun foo (x) (1+ x)) (sb-kernel:%simple-fun-type #'foo) 17:45:03 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-27-188.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:45:08 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:45:36 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 17:46:23 Xof, so there is another function somewhere which probably tells that list returns a list? 17:46:49 drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:46:59 levente_meszaros: Actually, the return type of CL:LIST is likely specified in its DEFKNOWN in the compiler. 17:47:01 list is a known function 17:47:17 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756c12.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:28 nyef: That worked, there's also direct-superclasses or something as well - I need ot read up on sb-* stuff, I haven't really used those much. 17:47:31 ok, but in a partial evaluator it would be desirable to get that info 17:47:38 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:48:02 binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has joined #lisp 17:48:08 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:48:08 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-12-151.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:11 TDT: That's actually MOP stuff, so AMOP would be a good start there. 17:48:25 tcr it appears that you were talking about the x86 dictionary on siyobik.info earlier today 17:48:26 k thanks, I'll read up on that. 17:48:48 That's my site 17:49:03 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:04 The lambda doesn't belong there, really, I don't know any functional programming at all 17:49:13 I suck at Haskell and I know no Lisp 17:49:25 I can give you the SQL file for that, the PHP code for it is UGLY 17:50:00 I am currently rewriting my entire site in Ruby and I intend to translate the new Intel x86-64 to some more generic SQL format, too, so you can browse it as a website 17:50:30 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483E780.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:49 Woops, that was pkhuong 17:50:53 Who wanted the offline version 17:55:08 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:18 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 17:56:29 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:41 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 17:56:48 Greetings lispers. 17:57:05 hello tmh 17:57:07 hello tmh 17:57:14 beach: jinx 17:57:20 Hello beach and Fare. 17:57:39 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:58:10 Fare: You're blog entry on 'Software Irresponsibility' has convinced me to invest some time using XCVB. 17:58:43 tmh: same blog led to me becoming maintainer of ASDF :-/ 17:58:52 *tmh* chuckles 17:59:05 s/you're/your/ 17:59:06 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:59:18 Ouch, need to drink some more coffee, I hate that mistake. 17:59:29 when starting to write the entry, I didn't guess I'd come up with a plan to improve ASDF. 17:59:30 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:59:44 Okay, non-constant raw-instance accessors are broken, that'd probably cover the actual error I'm seeing. 17:59:54 nyef: :-( 18:00:44 Fare: Hey, it's not yet been 24 hours since I started this hack, I've fixed a few things along the way, and 63-bit fixnums are probably worth it. 18:01:01 63-bit fixnums? 18:01:06 as opposed to 61-bit? 18:01:08 Yeah. 18:01:08 Fare: Yes, organizing ones thoughts for a journal is very useful. I've been wanting to start a daily journal, on paper, to organize my thoughts and document lessons from the day. 18:01:31 Someone complained last night that more fixnum bits would break something of his. 18:01:57 nyef: twas me. I wasn't trying to convince you to not do it! 18:02:02 I go through phases of using a daily paper journal. 18:02:10 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:19 I was just grousing-in-advance. :) 18:02:21 foom: I didn't think you were trying to convince me. 18:02:33 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 18:02:49 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CE20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:54 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:02:57 Okay, good. Just FTR: it will almost certainly break something in my software, but it's still a great idea. :) 18:03:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:11 What is the motivation for 63-bit versus 61-bit versus XX-bit? 18:03:49 minion: chant 18:03:49 MORE FIXNUM 18:03:50 Well, I'd guess the original intent behind 61-bit is "this will cause least disruption while we get 64-bit compilation working generally". 18:04:00 nyef: what next, all unboxed data as IEEE doubles? 18:04:04 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:04:27 And the motivation behind switching to 63-bit is "hey, we have spare lowtags, and this'd be a neat way to use them up!" 18:04:28 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:04:44 "nobody will need more than 61-bits" 18:05:00 Bah. They said the same thing about 640k. 18:05:34 Hrm. It's just -raw- slots that seem to be damaged, and that wouldn't cause what I'm seeing. :-/ 18:05:56 there was this AI team using their own 128-bit Lisp for distributed computing. Immediates for "long" integers and short strings were nice, they said. 18:06:14 -string- immediates? Wow. 18:06:18 as was making everything uniform in size. 18:06:19 that sounds like premature optimization 18:06:30 snearch [n=olaf@g225063148.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:06:34 prxq: on a distributed platform, it kind of makes sense 18:06:34 in particular as i'd bet it was in another age 18:06:40 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:49 they were still developing it 3 years ago, that I heard of 18:07:03 It's generally considered a useful optimization for C++'s string class to have inline storage for small strings. 18:07:15 No reason why that wouldn't translate over into lisp too. :) 18:07:15 Fare: might be :-) 18:07:24 Fare: what project was that? 18:07:31 and python has optimizations for small dictionaries. 18:07:50 foom: do they also pack characters as 6 or 7 bits? or a huffman encoding? 18:07:55 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-100-119.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:07:56 Fare: Back to system definition, so now you are inclined to build on the ASDF momentum? 18:08:06 Or rather, inertia. 18:08:13 tmh: I want XCVB to compete against the best that ASDF can be 18:08:29 tmh: also, I'm majorly procrastinating on the next set of big XCVB features. 18:09:03 *Fare* would like some pair programming on the XCVB "farmer" 18:09:17 Fare: Ok, I was hoping you were going to say "Just use ASDF", so I could avoid the effort of actually using XCVB for something. You need to support my quest for laziness. :-) 18:09:20 *Fare* imported fare-utils into XCVB so he could use heap data structures. 18:09:37 tmh: for laziness, /join #haskell 18:09:50 *rim shot* 18:09:54 tmh: Just have a file that does a compile-file on all your sources and another one that does a load on all the fasls. 18:09:57 Fare: no. generally just 16 8-bit characters. 18:10:13 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:19 *nyef* has been lazier recently, and not even bothered with writing new stuff larger than one file. 18:10:26 Does anybody know anything about this http://www.siginf.com/13023.html ? 18:10:35 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:10:38 Hello LiamH. 18:10:39 -!- sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:41 (or maybe it's 15 8-bit characters; I forget) 18:10:50 hi tmh 18:11:16 LiamH, is it the same SciCL that was presented at ILC2009? 18:11:24 Fare: yes 18:11:27 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:11:40 LiamH: I've looked over the website in the past. I think that is proprietary software. 18:12:08 tmh: I agree, but it appears to be vaporware. I can't find a link to product information, or even information about the company. 18:12:30 sykopomp|work [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:12:37 Neat-looking vaporware if it is, though. 18:12:57 NEPLS 2009 tomorrow at MIT. 18:13:03 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:13:12 LiamH, mail the author 18:13:27 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:28 Wasn't that David McClain? 18:13:38 LiamH: I don't think it's vaporware. I thought I saw a discussion somewhere related to performance improvements in the software related to properly using the foreign numerical libraries. 18:13:43 He presented: http://spectrodynamics.com/ 18:13:47 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:13:55 http://weitz.de/eclm2009/Hamburg%20Intro.pdf 18:13:56 *Fare* has been given a new desktop after the previous one died. I wonder whether or not to try NixOS on it... 18:14:03 http://weitz.de/eclm2009/GigaDSP%20presentation.pdf 18:14:11 http://weitz.de/eclm2009/Butterfly%20Presentation.pdf 18:14:12 and 18:14:18 http://weitz.de/eclm2009/Okeanos.pdf 18:15:15 looks like that is something different 18:15:20 What's NixOS? 18:15:47 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@mue-88-130-116-101.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:47 lispm: I agree, interesting, but different 18:16:02 Fare: How do you get into NEPLS? Is it a "just show up at the door" thing? 18:16:31 tic: linux distribution with purely functional packaging #nixos 18:17:16 I was going to make a project to collect numerical computing projects; I had informally chosen SciCL. I guess I'll have to pick another name. 18:17:24 nyef: send mail to Maria Rebelo (mr at csail.mit.edu), say you'd like to get lunch and a parking spot. 18:17:51 LiamH: \Phi CL? (: 18:18:08 nyef: dunno her phone number. 18:18:16 pkhuong: Ha! good. 18:18:32 NuCL 18:18:40 Nuccl 18:18:42 Though someone could read that as "fickle" 18:18:42 LiamH, we have unicode, now 18:18:53 GnewLisp 18:18:55 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-114-173.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:19:02 ha 18:19:09 "the G stands for 'GNU GCL CLISP'" 18:19:32 so make it cl 18:19:45 Clothure 18:20:04 LiamH: collect your own projects? 18:20:06 -!- xristos [n=nx@204.8.46.227] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:46 cln could work 18:20:47 prxq: At the start, mostly mine yes. The intent is it would provide a base for development of other projects though. 18:20:47 Fare, sounds quite cool. 18:21:16 cloğure ? 18:21:20 LiamH: you want to provide some sort of common platform? 18:21:22 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:21:30 prxq: yes 18:21:39 CL \int (eastwood ;) 18:22:11 LiamH: I'm looking forward to it :-) 18:22:19 Fare: Almost looks like I could just show up if I needed neither parking nor lunch. 18:22:30 prxq: you can get started now with GSLL/FSBV/lisp-unit 18:22:43 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host94.190-137-253.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:47 nyef: yes, but you should still mail her 18:23:13 LiamH: ok, so mainly it would be an ffi thing? 18:24:03 prxq: By chance it's starting that way, because what I and my colleagues need most is often sitting in foreign libraries. 18:24:13 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 18:24:19 You can add BX-FFT (: 18:24:38 prxq: but no reason it will be ffi exclusively. 18:25:16 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 18:25:17 angerman_ [n=angerman@d216.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 18:25:32 -!- angerman_ [n=angerman@d216.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:40 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-147-137.harvard.edu] has joined #lisp 18:25:45 prxq: are you working on scientific/numerical tasks these days? 18:26:41 LiamH: of course ;-) 18:26:46 pkhuong: Thanks to Sikander, we have GSL's FFT in GSLL. I'm thinking fftw would be a good thing too, so why not bx-fft? The more the better. 18:27:09 prxq: what specifically? 18:27:14 LiamH: yes, I continue to work on numerical software. Usually not very finished. 18:27:52 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:27:56 LiamH: Simulation and optimization. Parameter estimation, control, that kind of thing. 18:28:27 prxq: very close to our interests 18:29:29 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 18:30:33 I'm in the process of updating the WEYL computer algebra system. I have it compiling and loading without errors. I'm working through the examples and generating unit testing. It needs a lot of updating to remove the work arounds that were required prior to the ANSI standard. 18:30:38 LiamH: I see :-) 18:31:07 I guess CL would be infringing. 18:31:18 LiamH: I subscribed your journal 18:31:30 pkhuong were you the one who wanted that x86 dictionary as an offline version? 18:31:33 LiamH: I think it would be better somtething that's just plain ascii. 18:31:51 I can give you my crappy SQL file for it but I need to rewrite all of that soon anyways 18:31:54 at the end of the day, it will be a problem to google for it, etc. 18:32:04 prxq: OK, my journal is on planet lisp too. Also there's the gsll-devel mailing list. 18:33:01 prxq: don't worry, whatever it is will be expressible in ASCII. Not even iso-latin1 for me! 18:33:25 binrapt: ideally, yes. Just a directory of $INST.html? 18:33:59 $INST.html? :( It's written in PHP unluckily 18:34:12 LiamH: people might think it's a psych (stats?) package ;) 18:34:19 The SQL format itself is strange anyways, it contains some markup I invented 18:34:33 binrapt: bah, I can also wget and be done with it. 18:34:38 Yeah 18:34:43 Would that be all right with you? 18:34:51 Sure why not 18:34:59 Rape the site as you wish, I got terabytes to burn 18:35:04 pkhuoung: True. Wasn't there such a stats package in some early form of lisp, xlisp-stat or something like that? 18:35:06 license and what not. How about redistribution? 18:35:21 pkhuong it's not my content :X 18:35:21 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:35:26 Copyrighted by Intel 18:35:31 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:35 These are the Intel specs 18:35:56 I jsut manually converted a 1000 page PDF to SQL 18:36:11 I didn't know about pdf2txt back then haha 18:36:15 That's added value to me (: 18:36:54 I will redo it all from scratch 18:36:59 Using the new 64 bit manual 18:37:28 common-lisp.net seems to be down in some way 18:38:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-qtalxxuygkxaijtr] has joined #lisp 18:38:49 tmh: in any case, if you think xcvb has potential but is lacking features, you can vote for what I should be working on first (or even better, do it :) ) 18:38:50 prxq: wfm. 18:39:24 binrapt, to SQL? 18:39:47 Fare to some database format so you can render it programmatically, yes 18:40:08 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:40:44 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 18:40:56 -!- angerman [n=angerman@129.187.209.224] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:42:14 Fare: Ok. I have never even scanned xcvb. I'd like to try it on a project where ASDF isn't quite doing what I want so that I can get an appreciation of how the 2 differ. Most of my projects are simple with respect to compiling and loading. 18:42:36 *tmh* is going to lunch. 18:42:52 Xof: so, what area of london would be reasonably close to goldsmith? 18:42:56 -!- pjb [n=t@18.Red-88-30-107.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:19 dnolen [n=dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 18:48:26 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 18:49:09 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-115-57.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:49:20 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:52:21 -!- binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has quit ["Theism is cancer"] 18:53:11 -!- Elench is now known as JHVH 18:53:14 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:31 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:54:42 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 18:56:01 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:19 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:57:28 mutew_ [n=mutew@128.220.159.20] has joined #lisp 18:57:55 jlpeters [n=james@174-21-193-129.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:57 -!- jlpeters [n=james@174-21-193-129.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:41 Tordek [n=tordek@186.124.175.26] has joined #lisp 19:01:44 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:01:44 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:36 ... Oh. The AVER that I thought was failing looks like it's eliminated at compile-time instead. 19:03:34 -!- sykopomp|work [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:04:38 -!- errkle [n=errkle@c-98-192-38-115.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:06:01 *nyef* kludges up the hackish "too early in cold-init" %failed-aver test with an extra clause for when it's too early in cold-init to even try the test. 19:06:13 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D504.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:42 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 19:08:55 hello 19:10:32 sykopomp|work [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:11:27 p_l: ping 19:13:32 woah. 2h for 6 miles on public transit!? 19:14:08 kami: ICMP_ECHOREPLY 19:14:45 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:05 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:15:15 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:16 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:36 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-15-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:16:42 *nyef* whimpers. 19:16:45 p_l: I saw you mentioned linj some days ago. Do you use linj (or even wrote it)? 19:16:49 *standard-output* isn't even set up yet. 19:18:26 -!- mutew_ [n=mutew@128.220.159.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:01 kami: no, unfortunately not. I'm planning on building an open source equivalent of it, because I can't get a working copy of it 19:20:43 Aah. OK. 19:21:08 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:20 also, a "framework" for building such systems would be IMHO very useful 19:22:06 p_l: have you tried to contact Antonio Leitao? 19:22:07 mutew_ [n=mutew@128.220.159.20] has joined #lisp 19:22:56 kami: not yet, had (and still have) a lot on my mind 19:23:08 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-4-161.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:23:10 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 19:23:51 SBCL 10 people, where did you find a bed? 19:29:49 pkhuong: I want to know, as well. :) 19:31:51 Found a nice enough hostel... The one time I got google to find a public transit route, I got a 2h route. 19:32:16 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:33:37 moah [n=gnu@dslb-188-100-155-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:04 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:11 p_l: the author was very helpful when I contacted him once. You should definitely do that before you start to write something from scratch. 19:36:16 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-195-150.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:38:19 I wonder if they are still doing it commercially or would they be willing to release oit it oas opens-open-source... 19:40:45 *nyef* shakes his head. 19:40:47 Array references. 19:40:48 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:58 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:08 p_l: I sent him an email that I would like to make some experiments with linj and he sent me the source code. But I didn't ask him whether he would open-source it. 19:45:23 p_l: that was in 2008 19:47:54 hello, i tried to build sbcl in cmucl and the build aborted in an error ("Error in function COMPILE-STEM"). is this more of an error with the system or more of a cmucl incompatibility? 19:48:33 (its actually the first time i try that, or building a compiler in general) 19:50:35 moah: SBCL should build with any CL compiler. However, it's usually tested mostly with previous sbcl's... if you really want an sbcl, and don't feel like tracking this all down, get an sbcl binary and build with that. 19:50:41 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-147-137.harvard.edu] has quit [] 19:50:50 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:22 moah: however, it's worth filing a bug report or taking it to the mailing list, as it is supposed to work after all. 19:52:13 no, i am actually playing around with a lisp for the first time and was just curious. 19:52:40 its suposed to work with a older cmucl, according to the web siote. 19:53:45 is there a lisp-newbie way to file this as a bug instead of just writing "it didnt build under cmucl 20a"? 19:53:46 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:10 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:54:26 moah: include the error message verbatim (and a backtrace probably) 19:54:47 minion: memo for adeht: Re. syobik; that would be cool! 19:54:47 Remembered. I'll tell adeht when he/she/it next speaks. 19:57:25 -!- mutew_ [n=mutew@128.220.159.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:06 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:19 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 19:59:01 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:59:05 -!- gigamonkey` is now known as gigamonkey 19:59:27 kami: did it work, btw? 20:01:02 SimonH [n=simonh@89.240.83.219] has joined #lisp 20:01:31 p_l: I played a little with it. But the code which should have been generated needed annotations and generics. And I didn't have the time to implement Java 1.5 language features. 20:01:44 *nyef* sighs. 20:01:47 hmm 20:01:51 Okay, got quite a bit further this time. 20:02:18 (And by "quite a bit", I mean about six cold-init functions later.) 20:02:26 kami: I might ask him for the code and try to add at least generics and maybe annotations... then do evil thing and port it from Java to C# 3.0 :> 20:02:34 nyef, what are you digging in? 20:02:57 tic: I'm trying to widen fixnums. 20:02:59 drewc: Is cl-org-mode on common-lisp.net? 20:03:09 (make fixnums wider? Something like that.) 20:03:12 nyef, from 29 is it now? 20:03:17 nyef, to...? 20:03:22 minion: chant! 20:03:23 MORE BITS 20:03:23 tmh: doh! i knew i was forgetting something. 20:03:28 hehe. 20:03:29 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-195-150.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Must sleep now... bye."] 20:03:31 33! 20:03:36 From 61. 20:03:40 (randomly borrow the carry) 20:03:50 drewc: Umm, that's not very good advertising for org-mode, didn't you make it a task? :-P 20:03:53 ah, you're talking 64. no love for ia32? 20:04:07 Though we did discuss what would be required in order to get an extra fixnum bit on 32-bit arches. 20:04:17 tmh: lol, i didn't actually, and that's why it didn't get done :P 20:04:35 tic: 30 on x86. 20:05:18 pkhuong, currently? 20:05:24 tic: yes. Sign bit. 20:05:25 drewc: I've got a little down time between projects and spent this morning review time trackers again. Found this great document on using org-mode -> http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html 20:05:27 hm, I could look myself. 20:05:53 tmh: that's the one.... i basically do all that. 20:06:15 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:25 <_deepfire> Fare, there's another compile-time dependency issue in CL: classes are only required to become types at load time -- so you cannot do type relationship hackery in macros within the samefile 20:06:27 pkhuong, what's the last bit used for? (sorry for the silly question) 20:06:42 tic: There have to be 4 pointer tags, the other-immediate tags have an effective length of two bits (that is, they're stationed every 4 entries throughout the lowtag space), and that uses up six tags on 32-bit architectures and eight on 64-bit architectures. 20:06:49 _deepfire, you can, with eval-when's and eval's 20:06:52 binrapt [i=void@long.live.the.international.soviet.of.scientists.siyobik.info] has joined #lisp 20:06:53 (evil) 20:06:55 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:07:02 _deepfire, been there, done that 20:07:22 nyef, thanks for the enlightenment! appreciated. 20:07:54 tic: That basically leaves the option of having the fixnum tags be two bits wide on 32-bit systems and 1 bit wide on 64 (though they are currently 3 bits wide on 64). 20:08:03 i.e. your macro must eval to have things ready for itself, but eval-when for the effects to be ready for further macros in other files. 20:08:30 nyef: is the tag 0 or 1? 20:08:42 another option would be to steal the highest bit for tagging. 20:08:45 Fare: Fixnum tags are always 0. 20:08:58 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:18 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 20:09:32 Classically, pointer tags have been odd and immediate tags even, but that was wasteful. 20:09:33 pkhuong, you mean, all fixnums encoded with high bit 0, or with two high bits identical? 20:09:34 aintme [n=Miranda@77.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:09:56 High bit set, wouldn't it be? 20:10:07 Fare: no, 0 for fixnums, 1 for everything else, and steal the high bit for immediate non-fixnums. 20:10:20 Okay, now I'm confused. 20:11:14 Heh. I broke APPLY. 20:11:28 pkhuong: are your fixnums all positive, or do you have a convoluted plan for overflow-checking? 20:11:47 nyef: what does APPLY care about fixnum size? 20:11:53 <_deepfire> Fare, i.e. macros construct a form with defclass, then 1) directly evals the defclass part, so that further macros within the same file have the type, and 2) produce an expansion with (eval-when .. for subsequent files? 20:11:59 encoding of number of arguments? 20:11:59 Arg count is stored as a fixnum. 20:12:00 Fare: no, you only use the high bit for non-fixnums; just like we do with fixnums. 20:12:30 And there are a phenomenal number of places that assume that n-fixnum-tag-bits is word-shift or (1- n-lowtag-bits). 20:12:51 _deepfire, yes. Only works for top-level declarations of course. Otherwise your eval loses. 20:13:09 <_deepfire> Fare, sure 20:13:23 <_deepfire> This is evil.. 20:13:45 you need the eval only if you need the effects *within the same toplevel form* -- further expansions will already get the effect from eval-when. 20:13:48 nyef: right, we'd need to use the topmost bit for some addresses too. Ugly enough i wouldn't consider it. 20:14:09 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:14:12 <_deepfire> Oh, I see.. 20:14:16 Oh, right, I remember what the constraints were on wider 32-bit fixnums. Double the general allocation alignment, so we can get an extra tag bit for non-list pointers, and take the typecheck cost hit of losing either fun-pointers or instance-pointers. 20:14:31 eval, evil... yes 20:15:58 nyef: next, you'll port Lisp to a 20/21-bit computer... 20:16:11 Not likely, really. 20:16:16 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:16:47 Such a thing is more believably an embedded target, and I haven't done any embedded work in years. 20:17:26 speaking of which, there are more and more ARM-based devices coming out. How is that SBCL ARM port? 20:17:51 Haven't really touched it recently, though I could perhaps dedicate some time to it this month. 20:18:10 tic: there's a working ECL ARM port. 20:18:31 _deepfire: Where do you get that type-at-load-time bit from? 20:18:40 well, ECL in theory should compile on everything that sanely supports POSIX and ANSI C... 20:18:42 Fare, that's nice. 20:18:46 _deepfire: the clhs entry is pretty clear regarding defclass-as-toplevel-form? 20:18:48 Jabberwockey [n=jens@mue-88-130-116-101.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #lisp 20:19:44 The SmartQ7 WVGA Android/Linux thingy looks quite sexy. 20:19:46 skv [n=sasha@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 20:19:51 p_l, then there are the evil bits about handling page faults, garbage collection, threading, and various low-level optimization. 20:20:00 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:20:25 Lauren got the motorola droid and it's very nice, unlike the original G1. 20:20:36 (which was promising, but crap) 20:20:50 Fare: Garbage Collection is old fashioned Boehm-GC, page faults are handled by libc, threading by pthreads (low-level optimizations are optional) 20:22:08 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 20:24:24 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-143.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:26:23 _deepfire pasted "for tcr: subtypep of classes during compile-time" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91385 20:26:45 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:27:16 <_deepfire> Hmm, lisppaste wedged the paste. 20:27:29 nyef: or the two list-pointer-lowtag hack. 20:28:14 No, we'd actually -keep- that, so that we can have an n-list-pointer-lowtag-bits of two. 20:28:16 _deepfire: you have to pass the &environment arg to subtypep 20:28:21 _deepfire annotated #91385 "fixed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91385#1 20:28:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-143.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 20:28:48 (That is, we want to keep the two list-pointer lowtag hack so that we can still pack lists in at two words to the cons.) 20:28:58 to create a ticket in trac.common-lisp.net/project, do I need a common-lisp.net login? 20:29:17 _deepfire: Which SBCL currently ignores, that's a bug, and I've been working on it. I always wondered about a non-contrived test case 20:29:34 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-384738.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 20:31:11 This ends up making a mockery of the lowtag system, in a way, with there being three different lengths of lowtag, but that's pretty much the case we have now. 20:31:36 francogrex [n=user@178.116-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:31:39 hi 20:31:47 _deepfire: I have to check though if the subclass information is really supposed to be stored in the compilation env. Perhaps that does not even make sense with clos dynanism. 20:31:57 <_deepfire> tcr, I need it to compute the proper metaclass for the expansion 20:32:20 wait 20:33:06 <_deepfire> tcr, i.e. I have macros which expand to defclass, and expose a defclass-like syntax -- so you have a list of superclasses 20:33:09 zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:33:44 _deepfire: Post a specific test case, and what you really want to do to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/309140 20:33:47 <_deepfire> tcr, and I need to expand to a defclass form with a (:metaclass) depending on what's in the provided superclasses list 20:33:56 _deepfire: and hope that Xof's listening 20:34:06 a new ecl is out i see; hayy 20:34:36 _deepfire: cf https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/310120 20:35:18 however: The Mingw port does not work with the stable version of the Boehm-Weiser garbage collector. Users will have to download a more recent version and build and install it in an accessible location for ECL to compile 20:37:02 :( 20:37:53 it would be interesting to consider using the high bits for the tag on x86-64. They only currently have 48 bits of address, after all. :) 20:38:33 The problem with using high bits is that you can't really tell the mmu to ignore them. 20:38:37 auclairb [n=auclairb@173.176.59.25] has joined #lisp 20:38:50 you have to mask them off, just like the low bits 20:38:51 Instead, the mmu traps if they're not all the same value. 20:39:07 Yeah, but on a memory address computation? Ick. 20:39:23 kmc__ [n=keegan@64.121.133.238] has joined #lisp 20:39:26 yeah that's true, low bits are easier to mask off cause you have instructions that can do that for free 20:40:10 tmh: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/ 20:40:52 it's probably good that it doesn't ignore them; if it did, there'd be a problem like traditional MacOS had with 32-bit-cleanliness. 20:40:59 francogrex: who forces you to use Mingw? ;P 20:41:10 -!- kmc_ [n=keegan@206-71-236-70.c3-0.nyw-ubr1.nyr-nyw.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:41:12 the only time I compiled ECL on win32, I used cl.exe 20:41:37 drewc: Thanks, I'll get it in a bit, I'm working through the org-mode manual and that tutorial. 20:41:41 my only problem was that I forgot to enable threads & unicode the first time around, so I had to recompile 20:41:47 (where it used the high 8 bits for "handle" tags internally, and then even after it stopped, 3rd party code had been hardcoding those operations too) 20:42:04 p_l: was is cl.exe? 20:42:16 francogrex: filename of MSVC compiler 20:42:32 p_l: i use minGW for everythiung in my life 20:43:05 well, they suggest using a mlore recent version of gc; 20:43:20 -!- aintme [n=Miranda@77.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:43:29 I might just do that, delete the one that comes with it and stick a new one in 20:43:29 as far as I know, MSVC should correctly compile ECL for NT/i386, NT/amd64 and NT/ia64, possibly also NT/mips, NT/ppc and NT/alpha 20:43:41 foom: Heh. They had to get a third-party extension to make 32-bit mode work properly on the earlier hardware because the ROMs that shipped weren't 32-bit clean. 20:43:54 p_l: i don't have MSVC because I have SP1 20:44:12 francogrex: what has Service Pack to C Compiler? 20:44:43 p_l: to have MS studio C++ you need sp2 20:44:55 francogrex: ah, you mean XP SP1? 20:44:55 p_l: "... NT/mips, NT/ppc and NT/alpha" Are there current versions of the NT kernel for those platforms? Perhaps in some embedded/industrial capacity? 20:45:00 yes 20:45:17 but i'm really happy with mingw 20:45:37 tmh: NT/mips was dropped after NT4 sp1, the same I think with NT/ppc. NT/alpha was dropped when Compaq dropped Alpha 20:45:52 There's still CE for MIPS, SH4 and ARM 20:46:08 p_l: That's what I thought, just checking. 20:46:16 only to figure out where is the newst unstable version of gc and whichj one ecl is cuyrently using soas to avoid it 20:46:34 tmh: Also, I heard that by architecture, Windows CE is closer to NT than 9x 20:46:45 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:46:45 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:39 they don't share developement, but they both use hybrid kernels and depending on configuration options, CE can look quite close to NT 20:48:32 -!- mooglenorph [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:30 Guthur: what version of CL-PNG are you using? version .6 uses a very fast FFI interface 20:51:12 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.50.247] has joined #lisp 20:51:40 mutew_ [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:57 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@mue-88-130-116-101.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:11 drewc: cl-org-mode is my 3rd firefox tab of org-mode documents to read, need org-mode to manage my org-mode studies. :-) 20:52:28 -!- aeron [n=aerrant_@129.101.136.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:50 aeron [n=aerrant_@129.101.136.195] has joined #lisp 20:52:56 gonzojive ya its all good, it was my error 20:53:18 tmh: i actually did that at first, used org-mode to organise my org-mode learning. 20:53:19 -!- aeron [n=aerrant_@129.101.136.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:33 tmh,drewc: do you have a link for cl-org-mode? 20:53:37 aeron [n=aerrant_@129.101.136.195] has joined #lisp 20:53:37 i forgot that outputting the array would be a considerable amount of time 20:53:52 prxq: drewc just posted it above 20:54:07 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:54:09 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/ 20:54:14 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 20:54:33 ah. Thanks 20:54:50 mooglenorph [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:07 drewc,tmh: how long have you been using org-mode? 20:55:11 #xmobar 20:55:22 prxq: -1 days, I'm just learning it. 20:55:49 prxq: So, I'll probably start tomorrow after I go through the documentation and get it setup. 20:56:46 prxq: 6 months or so now. 20:57:17 tmh: when setting remember.el for org-mode, remember to create at least one template if you use org-remember-apply-template 20:57:38 p_l: Noted 20:57:58 otherwise it won't save notes properly 20:59:45 *drewc* has a lot of templates 21:00:12 (and org + remember mode rules!) 21:03:02 *francogrex* will be out struggling with gmp, gc and the new ecl 21:03:29 w00t context-sensitive documentation retrieval 21:03:54 -!- francogrex [n=user@178.116-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:04:03 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:24 like in arith.lisp, C-c C-d h on (inst NOT ...) will both open clhs entry for CL:NOT, and open documentation about X86's NOT instruction :-) 21:04:34 nice 21:05:07 it looks through the package-use-list of the buffer-package 21:06:11 I wonder if it should just browse to both ressources, or offer some menu to choose where to go 21:06:54 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@173.176.59.25] has left #lisp 21:06:54 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-27-188.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:04 Fah [i=cynic@65.23.159.66] has joined #lisp 21:09:23 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:13 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:15:10 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:15:32 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:16:23 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:30 *Krystof* cries 21:16:47 I fix a bug in my array-type-cleverness branch. What happens? Build failure 21:17:25 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-81.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:17:44 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-15-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:47 pkhuong: where is this alleged 2h journey from? 21:18:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-234.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:19:39 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 21:20:36 -!- sykopomp|work [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:22 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:04 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:28 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D504.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:28 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:48 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-188-100-155-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:31:53 *nyef* sighs. 21:32:01 Okay, something -else- must be wrong. 21:33:33 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:35:23 gigamonkey pasted "Does this strike anyone as grossly innacurate?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91392 21:35:29 *Krystof* finds his bug, prepares to rewrite history so that it looks like he never made a mistake 21:36:51 gigamonkey: About the only thing I might quibble with is the horizon expansion aspect. 21:37:13 Except that you qualified that, so... looks good to me. 21:37:47 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:12 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:38:21 I was mostly wondering if it was fair to say most CL implementations use the MOP to implement CLOS. 21:38:46 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-23-70.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:38:47 Most of the ones we commonly hear about do, right? 21:39:07 what should the type specifier of a boolean be? It may be either a 0-1 combination, or a T-nil combination (as in: I can work with both) 21:39:21 -!- mutew_ [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:44 madnificent: It depends on what contexts you plan on using it in. 21:40:01 nyef: array with 2 dimensions 21:40:07 clhs boolean 21:40:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_ban.htm 21:40:12 I wouldn't say that the MOP is used to implement CLOS, but I might be squinting like an actual implementor 21:40:22 well, most implementations use their own hacked versions of what eventually became the subject of the MOP, AIUI :) 21:40:23 SB-ALIEN's boolean type, for example, is T/NIL on the lisp side and 0/1 on the alien side. 21:40:41 Adlai: ah, so that does exist :) 21:41:14 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:19 Yeah, I'd go with "most implementations started with either PCL or closette", which is about what drewc said. 21:41:39 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-196-129.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:44 maybe "The MOP described in this book is a natural outgrowth of a proven implementation strategy for CLOS" 21:42:41 *nyef* shakes his head. 21:43:04 So, values-list goes to some trouble to compute number of arguments and such for the list it just spread. 21:43:07 I know, not enough of a marketroid 21:43:16 And call-variable immediately proceeds to ignore it and compute its own copy. 21:43:22 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:43:36 gigamonkey annotated #91392 "Maybe this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91392#1 21:44:17 better 21:44:20 Okay, doesn't look to be on the calling side. Or, at least, the calling side looks right enough. 21:47:53 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 21:48:05 noperules [n=qwe@88.228.116.171] has joined #lisp 21:48:06 -!- noperules [n=qwe@88.228.116.171] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:08 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:40 jsnell: array-type-cleverness branch updated. How is one meant to do this kind of distributed development, if we are in fact doing distributed development? 21:52:37 Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has joined #lisp 21:52:52 gigamonkey: so, why do you need blurbs about AMOP? 21:54:12 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:55:17 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-89-241.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:19 I would not say that the MOP is used to implement CLOS 21:55:20 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A287E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:55:32 it is more like the MOP is an interface to the implementation of CLOS 21:55:53 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:56:14 AMOP does mostly describe an API, and shows a simple example implementation 21:57:14 the API is a series of protocols that expose various parts of the object system 21:57:43 arabesca [n=arabesca@62.32.230.67] has joined #lisp 21:58:15 benny [n=benny@i577A287E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:58:29 evening 21:58:42 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-196-129.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:58:54 Oh, neat. Yet another case where someone used FIXNUMIZE when they meant (* n-word-bytes). :-/ 21:58:59 sunwukong [n=vukung@catv-80-98-131-133.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:59:26 There's a finite number of these, right? I'll reach the end of this at some point, right? 21:59:58 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:00:17 nyef: SBCL sources are finite 22:00:47 Well, that's reassuring, at least. 22:01:47 So, on a related topic, what does everyone think about some sort of smoke test for the calling conventions, for when you can't get through cold-init? 22:02:02 It's clearly not something that can be run as part of the test suite, for example. 22:02:53 But it's also clearly test code. 22:04:19 noperules [n=qwe@88.228.116.171] has joined #lisp 22:04:25 granto [n=grantoln@dallachy.inf.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:04:36 nyef: there are test files to be run before and after cross-compilation 22:04:44 stuff with names like foo.before-xc.lisp 22:04:57 Ooh. 22:05:04 very useful for catching type system problems before you try to debug a thoroughly miscompiled core 22:06:05 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:06:09 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:06:33 Okay, these are merely stored in the tests directory but not run by run-tests? 22:07:11 I guess that works. 22:07:25 right, they're run by make-host-1 and make-host-2 22:07:29 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224120079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:07:30 you might have to enable them explicitly 22:09:24 rrice1 [n=rrice@adsl-99-164-45-53.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:38 -!- rrice1 [n=rrice@adsl-99-164-45-53.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:07 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g227081089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["good night"] 22:10:08 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229066061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:11:08 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:12:33 davazp [n=user@243.Red-83-37-232.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:58 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:54 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:21:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 22:22:46 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:24:40 -!- rrice [n=rrice@76.211.17.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:54 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:25:02 davazp` [n=user@199.Red-83-54-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:29 sykopomp|work [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:33:37 -!- noperules [n=qwe@88.228.116.171] has quit ["leaving"] 22:34:08 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:24 -!- skv [n=sasha@67.136.131.11] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:35:10 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-051-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:50 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DB74.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:21 what's the fastest way to set all values of a simple-array to a certain value 22:38:33 (not during initialization) 22:40:27 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:48 -!- davazp [n=user@243.Red-83-37-232.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:12 can I have an empty array laying around, which memory I somehow copy into the other array? 22:41:43 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:42:18 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 22:42:26 if it's a vector, then FILL is your friend 22:42:58 It survived package initialization! ^_^ 22:43:29 'course, it's still broken, but one step closer. 22:46:12 Krystof: guess it'll be best to move to vectors then 22:47:02 do you mean "fastest" as in "fastest to execute" or "fastest to write"? 22:47:06 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:56 Krystof: what do you mean exactly? 22:48:34 I'm trying to reuse an array, so it needn't be created each time 22:49:53 well, have you checked that this reinitialization is a bottleneck? 22:50:13 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225063148.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:50:15 is the obvious loop over indices with row-major-aref too slow? 22:50:42 Krystof: the creation itself is the bottleneck, but I will need to overwrite the array with zeroes (as most of the variables aren't changed)... 22:51:00 Krystof: is it normally acceptable in speed? 22:51:20 (I haven't done it that way, I assumed arrays would've had something like #'FILL) 22:51:26 -!- SimonH [n=simonh@89.240.83.219] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:19 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:06 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:57:08 So, I'm somewhere in %coerce-callable-to-fun, which has been passed an interestingly silly "callable" that happens to be an even fixnum. And my backtrace consists of three foreign frames and no lisp frames. 22:59:53 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:58 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:00:33 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@catv-80-98-131-133.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["bye"] 23:02:25 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:02:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-234.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:02:59 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:07:17 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229066061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:07:54 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:52 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756c12.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:23 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:11:40 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 23:15:53 NNshag [i=user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-12-151.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:00 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:48 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DB74.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:21:20 Oh, neat. MOVE and MOVE-ARG VOPs that generate no code because their arguments are already in the right place completely disappear between the IR2 block output and the assembly. 23:21:58 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-051-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:22:47 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756c12.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:23:02 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756c12.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:28 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:27:07 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:27:47 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:28:34 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:28 good night 23:29:40 serichsen: Sleep well. 23:30:06 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06ea5c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["sorrow for the lost Lenore, for the rare and radiant maiden"] 23:30:08 -!- NNshag [i=user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-12-151.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:30:14 NNshag [i=user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-12-151.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:38 -!- metasyntax` [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 23:31:43 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-176-221-153.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:56 -!- NNshag [i=user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-12-151.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:06 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 23:34:15 NNshag [i=user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-12-151.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:18 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756c12.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:03 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:36:42 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:45 -!- arabesca [n=arabesca@62.32.230.67] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:03 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 23:38:37 lolr [i=d891baee@gateway/web/freenode/x-theoupildxwhbszv] has joined #lisp 23:39:18 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-121-192.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:52 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [] 23:42:54 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229066061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:43:53 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:44:22 lolr pasted "lalr-parser" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91398 23:44:58 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-4-203.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:15 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:45:41 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 23:46:34 alright, lalr-parser is the parser i made with the grammar i specified at the top of the page http://paste.lisp.org/display/91398 i was wonder how come my parser does't work when i try (lalr-parser '(A + B))? I'll get *** - EVAL/APPLY: too few arguments given to LALR-PARSER 23:46:38 -!- davazp` [n=user@199.Red-83-54-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:21 ... lalr-parser clearly takes two arguments. 23:47:53 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 23:47:56 The second one some sort of function of zero arguments to be called when a parse error occurs. 23:50:23 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.85] has joined #lisp 23:52:25 what would be an example of a correct input? 23:52:32 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:53:10 keiya [n=keiya@66-188-141-194.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:25 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-121-192.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:57:32 mex_ [i=c74c91db@gateway/web/freenode/x-fbdskmwrznqzinay] has joined #lisp 23:58:25 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.114.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:21 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-15-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp