00:02:45 mcspiff: Why CLOS is so not frustrating? Sounds like a complaint but doesn't parse as one :-) 00:04:46 p_l: Realizing that I needed to add functionality that would require me to rework a bunch of methods, when in reality I could use an :around specializing on 2 args. No need to break code 00:05:12 p_l: almost felt like cheating 00:05:23 pastodo [i=62c281e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-wdanlrkjoqfxqlne] has joined #lisp 00:05:51 does anyone know a recommended source on reading about writing a simple parser in Lisp? 00:06:11 minion: meta 00:06:12 meta: A recursive-descent parser as described in in a paper by Henry Baker: Pragmatic Parsing in Common Lisp; or, putting defmacro on steroids (ACM Lisp Pointers, vol. http://www.cliki.net/meta 00:07:25 wow, do a lot of people ask about making a parser in Lisp? 00:07:54 thanks 00:11:47 whats everybody's favourite test framework? 00:11:47 matze_ [n=matze_@p54BC9961.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:19:38 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-121-151.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:21:02 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:16 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-125.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:22:59 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:23:17 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 00:23:17 -!- matze_ [n=matze_@p54BC9961.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 00:28:52 -!- njsg [n=nobody@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["leaving"] 00:34:29 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:36:34 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:39:37 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:24 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.232.23] has joined #lisp 00:40:40 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-125.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:41:17 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.189.93] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:47:42 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-125.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:48:21 -!- konr1 is now known as konr 00:48:45 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:49:35 -!- faux` [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 00:54:18 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 00:54:31 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:54:39 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:55:36 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C28E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:57:40 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:53 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 01:08:25 ken [n=user@78.154.203.217] has joined #lisp 01:10:24 -!- ken [n=user@78.154.203.217] has left #lisp 01:10:53 jimi_hendrix [n=jimi_hen@unaffiliated/jimihendrix] has joined #lisp 01:11:00 -!- ziga`` [n=user@BSN-176-214-61.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:37 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 01:14:28 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:16:35 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 01:17:39 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224120062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:59 jenia_ [n=jenia@modemcable148.172-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:19:05 hey guys 01:20:24 hi 01:20:32 is it possible to overload function is lisp? 01:20:35 clos 01:20:43 jenia_: what does that mean to you? 01:20:53 you can overload a method by subclassing yes 01:21:02 give me a moment and i'll post it on lisppaste for you 01:21:13 thanks 01:22:37 well functions with the same name but different parameters 01:23:39 jenia_: methods in a generic function must take the same number of parameters. they might specialize on different criteria for the required args, though. 01:24:13 hmm... that definition.. i'm not sure about.. anyone? I'll look about for a bit.. but i'm fairly sure that by re-deun-ing a function you overwrite the value of the function pointed at in the symbol-table... 01:25:14 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D7BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:32 okay, tell me one more thing please 01:27:48 ? 01:27:58 can you define around for some other around method? 01:28:15 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:26 jenia_: if it has the same specialization, it will replace the existing one. 01:29:02 if i have you right you want to (defun somefunc(par1) body1) and then later (defun somefunc(par1 par2) body2) am i correct? 01:29:32 yup 01:29:43 shoafb: i recommend lurking a bit. 01:30:16 thanks Xach 01:30:19 Xach: I'm just trying to understand what s/he wants... 01:30:59 shoafb, you cant do it actually 01:31:04 thanks guys 01:31:28 and unfortunately its a he ;) 01:31:52 well, unfortunately for you 01:31:53 hehe 01:32:04 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:32:35 shoafb: Right, but if you are at a stage where you think the example syntax you gave is a good idea, you might want to read some more code or something. 01:32:47 shoafb: Your advice could very well do more harm than good. 01:35:11 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:35:52 dto1 [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:22 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 01:49:54 does anyone know how to use lalr? 01:50:04 rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-5-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:53 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:58:56 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:17 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:40 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-133-48.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:05:59 Eko [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:48 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:10:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:13:46 -!- jenia_ [n=jenia@modemcable148.172-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:22:11 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:22:51 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 02:23:18 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-83.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:23 porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:28 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-36-195.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:30 -!- pjb [n=t@62.Red-79-149-144.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:06 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.232.23] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:33:49 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:34:55 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 02:37:51 redblue [i=star@ppp057.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:40:25 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-225-189.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:57 -!- ht [n=ht@ip98-160-237-110.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:40:59 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:09 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:47 -!- BrianRice [n=water@76.115.44.87] has quit [] 02:49:06 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host103.190-137-185.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:33 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:29 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:51:46 -!- shoafb [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:56:08 what is a nice way to make an array of 16 elements in to a 4x4 array 02:57:00 any nice cl feature to do it easily 02:58:46 (make-array '(4 4)) 02:58:58 o sorry 02:59:00 read that wrong 02:59:06 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D7BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 02:59:07 you want to convert from one to the other? 02:59:49 Guthur: :displaced-to. 03:00:11 pkhuong i'll check that out, was about to use subseq 03:04:12 pkhuong: thats a seriously cool trick 03:04:48 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-172-232.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:52 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-172-232.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:08:44 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:11:35 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-5-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:15:30 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 03:15:56 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:22:03 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:49 -!- pastodo [i=62c281e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-wdanlrkjoqfxqlne] has quit ["Page closed"] 03:27:13 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:18 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:29:22 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-15-79.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:30:58 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:32:35 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-12-242.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:33:17 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 03:33:30 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:36:12 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-15-79.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:42:27 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-229-117.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:12 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 03:43:17 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-4-80.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:43:50 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 03:53:29 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lekvukypglbnlzdg] has joined #lisp 03:56:09 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-63.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:57:10 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:58:46 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 04:03:35 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-0-220.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:48 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:09:29 -!- marioxcc-AFK [n=user@200.92.164.107] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:11:36 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-135.netcologne.de] has quit [No route to host] 04:14:24 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:18:47 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:14 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:29:05 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:34:07 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:36:47 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 04:38:34 is there any way to turn a unicode number into a unicode character? o_O 04:38:56 <_3b> clhs code-char 04:38:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_code_c.htm 04:39:10 <_3b> ^ that might work, depending on the implementation 04:41:18 yay that worked. :D 04:41:21 thx. ;3 04:41:26 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 04:42:01 <_3b> not 100% portable though, since the spec doesn't require any particular mapping of characters to codes 04:42:13 i just need it for sbcl 04:42:33 <_3b> should work there, as long as you don't build it without unicode support 04:49:45 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:49:50 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:49:53 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 04:54:26 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:02:13 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-83.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:26 sellout: herep 05:02:51 gigamonkey: 'writing 05:03:30 Good. Get outta here. And update your word count; I keep checking. Chris Baty's a winner. You gonna take that from him? 05:04:08 Heh :) 05:04:39 I've been out most of the day, unfortunately  wedding venue searching *sigh* 05:05:26 Well, I guess there are worse excuses. However, now, back to work! You're so close. 05:06:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:23:36 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633779.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:27:52 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-39-6-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:05 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:07 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:35:04 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:37:58 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:39:05 how do you put \n into a string? #\return keeps crashing sdl. :| 05:40:14 -!- arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.47.173] has quit [] 05:41:58 porcelina: one way, just put it in. (I.e. break the string over multiple lines.) 05:42:24 Or (format nil "stuff~%stuff") 05:42:30 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 05:42:32 i'm trying to add it to a buffer when they press enter. 05:43:05 Are you talking Emacs lisp? This channel is mostly about Common Lisp. 05:43:15 i'm using sdl. :\ 05:43:19 Ah. 05:43:29 How do you put a string without newlines into a buffer in SDL? 05:43:30 so it's a c library linked through cffi 05:43:52 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-83.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:43:54 did you try #\newline instead 05:44:02 nuh-uh i'll try it 05:44:49 the function i'm using is (draw-string-solid-* textbox 20 20) to render the textbox at 20,20 in the window. 05:45:14 And textbox is a Lisp string? 05:45:19 yeah 05:45:36 So are you trying to figure out how to include a newline character in a string? 05:45:47 without breaking sdl. :\ 05:45:53 #newline seg faulted. >_< 05:45:59 #\newline even 05:46:02 Ah. Can't help you there. 05:46:06 yeah 05:46:11 i think i'll have to look at how it's done in c. 05:46:14 and figure it out from that. :/ 05:48:57 sacker [n=sacker@c-69-180-204-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:30 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:57:42 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 05:57:47 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:01:47 OH GOD! ;_; http://img49.yfrog.com/img49/8282/ezi.jpg 06:01:57 I am seeing the second one 06:05:40 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 06:07:54 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 06:09:37 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:11:08 fusss: hahaha 06:11:14 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has joined #lisp 06:11:39 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-176-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:16:33 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:16:41 yay the function i'm using doesn't have newline. :\ i get to split the string and do it myself. i am so glad i'm not in c. ^_^; 06:16:50 also i see the second one too. -_-; 06:17:35 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:53 -!- sacker [n=sacker@c-69-180-204-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:04 tim [n=tim@24.sub-97-36-201.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 06:20:30 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 06:22:14 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit ["nice .. xorg @ 25% memory use; leaky drivers ftw. .. brb."] 06:23:10 -!- gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-39-6-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:24:29 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 06:26:27 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:27:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:28:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:58 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 06:29:46 Good morning! 06:30:56 beach: your perky and happy "Good morning!" will probably freak me out till the end of time... ;-) 06:31:20 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.77.76] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:31:42 p_l: I can change it if you like! Is there anything you would rather I say? 06:32:55 For those who missed my announcement yesterday, do a `git clone http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Compta' if you want to see what I'll propose to the third-year students this year. It is a fully-functioning accounting system with a CLIM interface. The code is < 400 lines. 06:33:30 It needs more functionality, which is why I can give it to the students. 06:35:04 I am telling #lisp, because one day it might be a usable application. 06:35:07 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:36:09 beach: no, don't change it. You're kind of a stable element :D 06:36:42 p_l: OK. 06:37:42 You could say I was never a morning person :D 06:38:01 (not surprisingly, I fit rather well with astronomers...) 06:38:51 p_l: I see, yes. Non-monrning people have had problems with me in the past. When I was a teenager, I would sometimes get the answer "Shut up!" to similar greetings. 06:38:51 06:39:43 heh. I'm not that cranky, though I achieved a kind of fame in my high school by being often found sleeping near the entrance in the mornings 06:39:58 Wow! 06:41:17 it's kinda funny when you find a facebook quiz about "Who from are you?", fill it out and get yourself as the answer (thinly hidden behind a synonym used for my surname) 06:42:11 and well... I was also notorious for sleeping *during* lessons 06:42:29 though unlike a friend of mine I never brought pillow with me 06:43:03 Heh! 06:45:37 -!- tim [n=tim@24.sub-97-36-201.myvzw.com] has quit ["Bye"] 06:45:45 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:57 well known saying was that HS taught you to sleep with opened eyes 06:48:22 maus [n=maus@222.253.99.190] has joined #lisp 06:48:38 Good afternoon! 06:48:43 hello maus 06:49:04 Hello beach! 06:49:35 p_l: Never had that problem, but my labmate at the university would fall asleep every lecture and class, and occasionally wake up and tell me what the professor would say next. Turned out, he got up at 3 in the morning to prepare class, so he couldn't stay awake very late. 06:50:35 maus: I forget, is there some code you need for me to comment on? 06:51:09 beach: we had a question only. 06:51:19 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:51:36 maus: That you sent by email, or that you want to ask now? 06:52:06 i sent by email already 06:52:17 maus: OK, I'll have a look. 06:52:28 beach: thank you! 06:57:50 maus: I'll need the code. 06:58:36 aerique [n=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:00:49 beach:yes, i will send it now.. it's is just our trying.. so it's not good 07:01:12 maus: It is time you do it better then :) 07:02:13 maus: If you write your code ugly first, it is going to be much harder to get it right later. If you start by writing abstractions the way I have shown you, it gets much easier later. 07:02:55 maus: This is why I systematically answer by giving you a code review. When I do that, I want you to fix your code according to my comments, and then resubmit. 07:05:16 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 07:05:36 Eko_ [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:36 beach: we try it in the simpliest way, using draw-rectangle* and cordinates only.. we intended to rewrite these new lines to functions as you shown us if they work well.. but we have this problem.. 07:10:08 maus: Send me the code anyway. 07:10:11 beach: I've just send the email. 07:10:17 maus: OK. 07:10:35 maus: But truly, in general it is much easier to find problems in well-written code. 07:10:53 beach: yes 07:13:55 maus: To avoid warnings about unused variables, use (declare (ignore variable)), for instance (declare (ignore frame)) first in display-app. 07:14:26 maus: That's another very general thing. If you have warnings, you have to wade through them each time you compile in order to see whether there is any serious one. 07:14:39 Eko__ [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:48 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:15:48 maus: It looks fine here. Is there anything I need to do in order to make it look ugly? 07:16:14 sellout- [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:16:33 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 07:19:08 -!- Eko [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:20:40 beach: i'm sorry. I've just had a phone call from friend. 07:20:40 -!- Eko__ [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:20:54 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:21:11 beach: I'm just back. 07:21:11 maus: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/sudoku.png 07:21:17 maus: It looks fine here. 07:22:07 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-63.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:23:00 -!- Eko_ [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:47 beach: our board is not good. It becomes ugly when the mouse cursor moves over. 07:30:37 beach: we truly don't know why. 07:32:07 decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has joined #lisp 07:32:37 -!- decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:33:18 maus: I don't know either, since I can't reproduce the problem. 07:34:35 maus: What did you do to install McCLIM? 07:35:35 beach: I'm using package mcclim-0.9.6 07:35:41 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 07:35:54 maus: I suggest you reinstall all libraries using clbuild. 07:37:09 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:38:09 minion: tell maus about clbuild 07:38:10 maus: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 07:38:15 beach: ah, I'll do it right now.. 07:38:31 maus: This includes SLIME as well. 07:38:44 beach: ah 07:40:04 maus: It is often a bad idea to install distributions, because they might be old. And clbuild "knows" how to install recent and compatible versions of things. 07:42:28 beach, minion: thank you. I'm doing :).. I installed the environment with packages previously :) 07:44:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:45:17 maus: The reason I ask you all to come to #lisp is to get advice like that, which is hard to find otherwise. 07:46:06 beach: I'm sorry..! 07:46:20 maus: Don't be sorry. Improve instead! 07:47:02 beach: yes, Sir! 07:47:46 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:47:49 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:22 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:49:30 *beach* attacks the email backlog. 07:52:02 hello! 07:52:48 I'm trying to use cl-gd for one of my projects, and all cl:-gd-test:test tests are failing with the error 'Attempt to call an undefined alien function' 07:53:27 I'm on debian unstable and have libgd2-xpm and libgd2-xpm-dev installed 07:53:51 can someone kindly help me with pointers? 07:55:25 searching online gave me very old docs, that had to do with cl-gd package in debian (which is no longer in debian unstable repository) 07:55:39 also, I'm using clbuild installing cl packages 07:56:11 minion: tell madnificent about cl-gd 07:56:12 madnificent: direct your attention towards cl-gd: CL-GD is a library enabling CL implementations to use the GD graphics library via UFFI. http://www.cliki.net/cl-gd 07:56:25 ah 07:57:25 madnificent: I think that was for my benefit ;) 07:57:33 looks cool 07:57:45 spradnyesh: what? what I said to minion? 07:57:53 thanks, but I've read that 07:57:56 madnificent: yup 07:58:12 ah, no... I assumed you already knew about that page... I wanted to know for myself :P 07:58:16 spradnyesh: does it help you? 07:58:27 madnificent: nopes it doesn't 07:58:34 oh :( 07:58:47 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 07:58:55 I'm pretty sure that I've done the installation right; however there is something that I haven't installed 07:59:12 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:59:12 some library (from debian probably), but I'm not sure 07:59:20 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:59:35 you could try running an example manually (not through the testing system) and see what the error is you receive 07:59:36 or probably the 2 (cl-gd and the required library) are not talking with each other as expected 07:59:45 the debugger may tell you what library it isn't able to load 07:59:54 madnificent: I'll try that 08:00:07 *madnificent* hasn't done anything with uffi himself though 08:02:01 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:02:04 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:05:35 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has joined #lisp 08:11:54 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@177.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:15:38 -!- nekobaka [n=baka@c-67-181-80-137.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["^_^ later!"] 08:17:02 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 08:22:13 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-84-54.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:22:47 spradnyesh pasted "cl-gd" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91259 08:23:09 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06c908.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:12 good morning 08:23:15 madnificent: the debugger did not help much (see http://paste.lisp.org/+1YEZ) :( 08:23:30 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:23:54 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:26 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:26:45 interesting for Slime: http://wiki.github.com/Ignas/pycomplexity 08:27:53 Spaghettini, is the foreign library loaded? 08:28:04 spradnyesh, 08:28:28 lnostdal: _which_ foreign library do I look for? 08:28:49 and how do I know if it's loaded or not? 08:29:05 aerique: does this even make sense for Lisp code? 08:29:58 aptitude search libgd | grep dev or something, spradnyesh .. then (cffi:load-foreign-library "/usr/lib/....") tab-completion until you get to the .so 08:30:23 this is just like -l in C using GCC and stuff .. heh 08:31:11 lnostdal: thanks a lot, I'll try that 08:31:22 aerique: or for that matter, any language with higher-order functions 08:31:37 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:02 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:38 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 08:34:21 lnostdal: on doing CL-GD-TEST> (cffi:load-foreign-library "/usr/lib/libgd.so"), I get the error:- 08:34:21 STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "gdImageCreateFromJpegFile" and similar errors 08:34:52 the original (test-001) call still gives the same error:- Attempt to call an undefined alien function. 08:35:47 nm -D /usr/lib/libgd.so.2 | grep Jpeg 08:36:10 so no gdImageCreateFromJpegFile to be seen, there 08:36:30 if you don't need that particular function/feature it's probably fine though 08:36:37 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:37:06 if you need that other missing function/feature i'd try to figure out what CL-GD::GD-IMAGE-CREATE (lisp-side) calls (--> c side) 08:37:59 lnostdal: 00013ff0 T gdImageCreateFromJpeg (and so on) is the output of nm command 08:38:09 and confirm that its there/not there using nm .. if it's really there then perhaps some re-evaluation of the lisp-side wrapper function is needed after you did the load-foreign-library .. i'm not 100% sure; it sort of depends on how the binding is done 08:38:30 lnostdal: that is really helpful 08:39:04 1 more question though: is there a way to load this library when loading a package? I mean can I mark it as a dependency in the asd file? 08:40:11 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:21 hm - yeah, i recall some FFI wrapper libraries doing that .. 08:40:55 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp057.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:41:28 heh, i've forgotten which though .. i'm using vecto and all its dependencies seem to be CL only; no FFI 08:42:35 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:42:52 lnostdal: thanks for the pointers, lemme try and go ahead with the help of the information you so kindly gave :) thanks! 08:44:46 morning 08:45:15 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.99.190] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:45:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:49 cl-gtk2 loads via asdf; http://repo.or.cz/w/cl-gtk2.git/blob/HEAD:/gtk/cl-gtk2-gtk.asd ---> http://repo.or.cz/w/cl-gtk2.git/blob/HEAD:/gtk/gtk.package.lisp 08:45:58 yw, spradnyesh :) 08:46:50 not sure what that `at-init' construct is, though 08:47:07 maus [n=maus@222.253.99.190] has joined #lisp 08:48:20 morning, Krystof 08:48:33 adeht: I don't see why not? 08:49:58 adeht: altough just writing small functions that do one thing would obviate the need for the functionality :) 08:50:10 lnostdal: I think I found the issue: http://paste.lisp.org/+1YF1 : I cannot find gdImageCreateFromPngFile in the output of "nm -D /usr/lib/libgd.so.2 | grep -i png". I can find only gdImageCreateFromPng but not gdImageCreateFromPngFile 08:50:30 I think the api must've changed 08:50:52 rindolf [n=shlomi@62.219.139.216] has joined #lisp 08:50:59 yeah, probably 08:51:19 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:52:17 hello Krystof 08:53:45 lnostdal: the at-init might be the trick for loading the foreign library; I'll look into it too. thanks again! 08:54:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:55 M-.'ing around shows it's actually some special thing which is part of cl-gtk2 only, spradnyesh .. but the define-foreign-library and similar stuff is part of CFFI 09:03:23 Axius [n=ade@92.84.17.139] has joined #lisp 09:03:35 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:07:05 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:08:14 aerique: for one, in Lisp you can define your own control structures.. 09:08:31 Well, control structure syntax. 09:08:51 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:08:55 yes, and macroexpanding in the editor is not a good idea, and the usefulness of that metric is not clear then :) 09:09:11 good morning 09:09:56 (in fact, the usefulness of that metric is not clear once you can do indirect control transfer :) 09:10:13 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.17.139] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:10:24 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-043-133.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:37 <_deepfire> beach, good day 09:11:16 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-0-218.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:11:31 good morning everyone. 09:12:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-163.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:12:37 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:14:44 redwyrm [n=nil@pool-98-119-34-233.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:50 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:24 hello mvilleneuve, _deepfire, trebor_dki 09:15:42 mvilleneuve: We have a group for Stamp this year. And they are good ones too. 09:16:08 beach: great! 09:17:19 beach: have you written the project's subject? 09:17:33 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:19:05 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 09:20:50 Adlai [n=adlai@93-172-26-7.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:23:25 mvilleneuve: I recycled an old one. 09:23:45 mvilleneuve: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/stamp.html 09:24:50 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:26:04 beach: "indique ce" -> "indique que"? 09:26:18 serichsen: probably. On that html page? 09:27:04 fixed! Thanks! 09:27:52 cow-orke_ [n=foobar@pogostick.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:06 <_deepfire> beach, so have you got around to see orgmode? 09:29:19 _deepfire: Nope, not yet. 09:29:49 <_deepfire> It's a great clutch for my mind. 09:30:26 I guess my enthusiasm is not very high because I have a feeling that organization is not my problem, but time and motivation. 09:31:23 I sympathize with Krystof who said something like "now I know with great precision what I won't have time to do". 09:32:00 <_deepfire> It's not about organisation only, too. 09:32:22 I will try it eventually, if only to convince myself I need a new life instead of orgmode. 09:32:24 <_deepfire> It's great for maintaining "work contexts". 09:32:57 What are "work contexts"? 09:33:34 <_deepfire> In my case, a set of links to source files, intermingled with notes. 09:33:50 <_deepfire> And todo entries. 09:34:13 <_deepfire> The links even can remember the target location within files. 09:34:40 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:34:50 <_deepfire> Say, when you hack on a huge project, with thousands of files, and a complex directory hierarchy. 09:35:05 angerman [n=angerman@e196.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:19 <_deepfire> And when M-. doesn't cut it, because the project is in C. 09:35:30 addled_ [i=51269b15@gateway/web/freenode/x-ftyaldiufszekcra] has joined #lisp 09:35:48 _deepfire: What is your dayjob? 09:35:58 <_deepfire> beach, embedded stuff 09:36:08 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:57 <_deepfire> the linux kernel, device poking etc. 09:37:58 <_deepfire> (I need to wrap up and finally release the CL analog to OpenOCD (a JTAG TAP target debugger) I wrote) 09:38:26 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:47 -!- addled_ [i=51269b15@gateway/web/freenode/x-ftyaldiufszekcra] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 09:39:48 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 09:40:47 _deepfire: I hate to sound negative about something I haven't tried, but I don't see how it is going to help me find time to do my research, and avoid admin catastrophes that happen on a daily basis. 09:41:58 deepfire: why won't `M-.' "cut it"? 09:42:05 _deepfire: but perhaps Krystof can fill me in. 09:42:11 adeht: I had that question as well. 09:43:05 <_deepfire> adeht, because the tag scavenger doesn't have precise information about the semantics of the code it tries to index 09:44:15 <_deepfire> And when you combine that fact with a heavy use of C macros, it easily becomes irritating. 09:45:00 I guess it does.. I generally try to avoid heavy use of C macros 09:45:06 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.99.190] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:45:25 <_deepfire> adeht, not an option in my case. 09:45:49 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:46:11 <_deepfire> I'm by far on the observing side. 09:46:23 hello #lisp 09:46:51 deepfire: too hard to create a customized TAGS file? 09:47:31 beach: I don't know how organized you are and how you normally cope with context switches. I found I was very bad at making use of small moments of time (5m to 20m or so) in the cracks 09:47:58 <_deepfire> adeht, for the codebase of the size of the linux kernel the maintenance of such a file easily drowns any possible benefits you may get. 09:48:04 and that having items with clear descriptions and my notes helped with the context switch 09:48:31 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-33-165.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:49:24 deepfire: but aren't you already maintaining something like it in orgmode? 09:49:59 Krystof, I was working on that environment issue of deftypes; I don't think deftypes which take an &environment parameter should be cached as that pretty much defeats any purpose of the &environment parameter. 09:50:18 <_deepfire> adeht, C-c l, -c C-l, , , enter description, 09:50:19 Krystof: Thanks! 09:50:30 the secondary benefit is using the agenda in dealing with longer-term things 09:51:05 at least I, and I think many of my colleagues in academia, have the problem that there's no time to really think about scheduling and deadlines 09:51:06 maus [n=maus@222.253.99.190] has joined #lisp 09:51:23 that is, if something is due in 3 months time, it gets ignored until 2 months 24 days elapse 09:51:38 Dodek_ [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has joined #lisp 09:51:41 deepfire: that's pushing the button, but I am talking about the machine :) 09:51:54 org-mode and its agenda are able to give an overview, and also encourage you (or me, at least) to write down the steps 09:52:27 Krystof: What about working on multiple computers? Do you use GIT to synchronize? 09:52:33 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:52:54 What I do is log in to my "server" (home machine really) 09:53:07 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 09:53:15 <_deepfire> adeht, don't forget that Org offers you much more than just file links 09:53:18 I do all org-mode stuff there, but I have read-only mirrors of my org files on my "mobile devices" 09:53:35 (this fits in with my mail reading habits, too) 09:53:39 -!- redwyrm [n=nil@pool-98-119-34-233.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 09:53:59 deepfire: sure.. if it works, no need to fix it.. was just interested about `M-.' cuttability 09:54:06 Krystof: I see. 09:54:07 permagreen [n=alex@97-115-42-140.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:56 <_deepfire> adeht, have you tried living with M-. on the kernel sources? 09:55:02 beach: there is a newly-implemented protocol for org-mode on an iPhone, which should generalize to whatever other mobile / disconnected workflow you have 09:55:07 I haven't worked on the linux kernel 09:55:19 <_deepfire> Basically, I tried and I couldn't. 09:57:02 Krystof: what's it called? 09:57:09 <_deepfire> Maybe I didn't get to know my tools enough to help myself. 09:58:05 <_deepfire> There is that issue of asymptotically diminishing returns, though. 09:58:17 adeht: http://orgmode.org/manual/MobileOrg.html 09:58:48 deepfire: well, maybe ask other kernel devs how they do that.. tags is so useful that may be they already have a workaround/solution 09:59:02 <_deepfire> adeht, point 09:59:12 Krystof: thanks 09:59:46 <_deepfire> I just know that no matter how they try it won't be as good as Slime :-) 10:00:18 as I mentioned earlier, I guess the libgd apis have changed (eg from gdImageCreateFromGifFile to gdImageCreateFromGif) so that cl-gd ain't working anymore. I was getting 'alien function not found' errors 10:00:28 heh, work on Movitz instead 10:00:42 beach: meanwhile, nyef has implemented a clx bug tracker 10:00:58 go forth and file clx bugs at https://bugs.launchpad.net/clx 10:01:00 what I did was to rename gdImageCreateFromGifFile to gdImageCreateFromGif, and now I'm getting 'unhandled memory fault' 10:02:03 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-0-218.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:02:12 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:22 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-1-97.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:02:29 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:40 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:07:09 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.77.76] has joined #lisp 10:07:23 lnostdal: there? 10:08:56 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-043-133.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:09:49 spradnyesh, yup 10:10:49 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 10:11:08 lnostdal: what I did was to rename gdImageCreateFromGifFile to gdImageCreateFromGif, and now I'm getting 'unhandled memory fault' 10:11:21 can you please tell me how should I go about debugging it now? 10:11:58 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBADB5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:12:18 would it be that the library function is seg-faulting, or something? how can I check? 10:12:48 yeah, you're probably sending invalid data to the library now .. this is C; remember .. so you'll get no protection and you're back in good old "SIGSEGV!" land :P 10:14:11 i'm not sure why those functions have been removed from the GD library .. perhaps the authors intend for people to use libpng or libjpeg to save/load image data? .. *shrug* .... :) 10:14:56 hmmm 10:15:20 lemme check if I can find out when/why the apis changed (if at all, or whether I'm doing something wrong) 10:15:23 thanks again! 10:15:41 -!- borism_ [n=boris@213.35.234.234] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:16:08 there shouldn't be a problem using "the rest" of the bindings that still point to valid (that is; defined in the libgd.so file) functions 10:16:15 Krystof: Oh, interesting! Is he planning to work on it as well? 10:16:55 -!- drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [] 10:16:56 I'll be right back. 10:17:01 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:01 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-48-83.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 10:17:25 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-48-83.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:17:33 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.69] has joined #lisp 10:18:49 spradnyesh: you need to load cl-gd-glue.so, gdImageCreateFromGifFile is defined there. 10:18:58 drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:19:32 H4ns: thanks, I'll check which package (on debian) it is installed, and install that (if it is not already) and try to continue from there 10:19:47 spradnyesh: i do not think that the libgd api changed so drastically that cl-gd api stops working. if it did, we'll look into that. but please first make sure that you loaded cl-gd-glue.so 10:20:17 spradnyesh: don't waste your time with gd versions until you've made sure that you got cl-gd and the glue file initialized correctly 10:20:41 H4ns: I mentioned earlier that I installed cl-gd from clbuild, and not from debian 10:20:59 in this case where will I find this cl-gd-glue.so file from? debian or clbuild? 10:21:00 -!- permagreen [n=alex@97-115-42-140.ptld.qwest.net] has quit ["Welcome to the real world"] 10:21:24 spradnyesh: i don't use either of that. cl-gd-glue.so is built as part of the cl-gd build process. 10:21:45 Aviado [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:11 spradnyesh: look at the documentation: http://weitz.de/cl-gd/#install 10:22:13 ohh, I'll search for it then 10:22:14 -!- Aviado [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:27:02 demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-85-52-52.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 10:27:21 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-85-52-52.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:28:03 borism [n=boris@213-35-234-234-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 10:29:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 10:36:32 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:42:00 KatchaFire [n=bernie@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:51 can I somehow specify what type the result of a function will be? 10:43:58 ftype 10:44:13 adeht: thanks :) 10:45:36 bah.. why the hell does new Hunchentoot use return-code* for what was once return-code and return-code for a new generic function.. should be reversed 10:45:47 same applies to other such accessors 10:47:07 adeht: no. we decided to make the * indicate that something special is going on (special variable access) and use standard names for standard accessors. 10:47:28 adeht: the conversion process for software using the old api is straightforward enough. 10:48:07 H4ns: I disagree with that rationale 10:48:18 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:48:21 adeht: why? 10:50:00 I don't see that something as something so special that it needs to be indicated, and it's easier for backward compatibility 10:50:13 *indicated in the function name 10:50:38 *madnificent* didn't find it particularly fun either, but hunchentoot stays fun 10:50:52 anyways, I converted what needed conversion 10:51:04 I'm trying to get cl-webdav going 10:51:39 can you specify the type of values in a hash-table? 10:51:59 madnificent: no 10:52:29 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:52:41 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:55 arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:37 -!- arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:59:12 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:03:43 davazp [n=user@41.Red-83-52-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:51 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:11:03 -!- wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077072191.netvigator.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:14:20 seems to work. problems were use of cons for defconstant value and setting content-type to nil 11:14:59 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.99.190] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:15:21 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:18:43 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:20:25 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:22:03 Joreji [n=thomas@42-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:26:14 -!- KatchaFire [n=bernie@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 11:31:39 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.69] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:39 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 11:32:50 pjb [n=t@240.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:15 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 11:39:33 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:40:08 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 11:40:35 I'm dring to do this web component : http://imagebin.org/73481 nice great CL :) 11:40:40 *trying 11:41:05 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 11:41:18 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:41:26 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has left #lisp 11:41:52 -!- pjb [n=t@240.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:43:31 of course with more editor widgets then what showed on inmage 11:44:28 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has left #lisp 11:47:57 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D734.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:58 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:48:29 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 11:49:54 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 11:50:02 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-1-97.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 11:52:48 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:53:11 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-1-97.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:53:34 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@42-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:30 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 11:55:53 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:56:06 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:15 Posterdati [n=angel@host226-212-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:57:20 hi 11:57:32 ciao a tutti 11:58:11 hello Posterdati 11:58:14 hello nareshov 11:58:30 please I need help on clisp + slime on emacs 22. When I try to launch slime (M-x slime) I've got clc package not found (I've installed common-lisp-controller, clisp, slime and all cl-*) 11:58:41 Posterdati: debian? 11:58:51 nareshov: yes, squeeze 11:58:58 nareshov: does work on lenny 11:59:15 Posterdati: you might want to see http://nareshov.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/playing-with-lisp-on-debian-squeeze/ 11:59:27 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:28 Posterdati: It is generally recommended to avoid the common-lisp controller. 11:59:29 nareshov: tx 11:59:46 minion: Tell Posterdati about clbuild 11:59:47 Posterdati: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 12:00:22 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 12:00:22 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-15-57.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:00:46 beach: how do you avoind clbuild if debian is using it by default? 12:00:53 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229080070.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:01:32 nareshov: You mean the CLC? I don't know, but I imagine you can uninstall packages on Debian. 12:01:54 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lekvukypglbnlzdg] has left #lisp 12:02:23 hm 12:02:28 but sbcl depends on it 12:02:34 (in debian) 12:02:43 nareshov: Don't use the debian SBCL package then. 12:02:54 compile my own? 12:03:09 Use binary packages available at sbcl.sourceforge.net 12:03:21 nareshov: grab sbcl binary from sbcl.org. Install clbuild. Then maybe build a new one. 12:03:44 Sometimes I wish debian would just remove the lisp packages (: 12:03:50 hmm 12:04:39 you can use debian's sbcl to build a new sbcl with clbuild, and then apt-get remove sbcl 12:05:08 what would be the point if you already have binary packages available? 12:05:31 do things through clbuild, I guess. 12:06:28 You still can. I installed sbcl using binaries, and then used it for clbuild 12:07:10 I thought you were opposing the idea of using clbuild, not apt. 12:07:25 doesn't really matter, regardless 12:07:35 No, I am in favor of using clbuild 12:07:35 beach: That seems a bit odd if you have the debian sbcl already installed though? apt-get remove, pull binary, build.. instead of .. build, apt-get remove :) 12:07:43 1 less step! (: 12:08:00 *tic* agrees with cap'n schme 12:08:09 If you like. 12:08:19 cap'n crunch! 12:08:22 I never did say I built SBCL with clbuild. 12:08:30 oooh 12:08:34 yeah. 12:09:11 I never understood that CLC. I guess maybe it is meant for multi-user systems with everyone on their own favourite lisp, and same libraries installed using apt. 12:09:38 But it's an interesting topic. How hard would it be to supply Ubuntu packages with essentially all that clbuild has? 12:10:22 I think that ubuntu, like debian, likes "stable" and not the latest commit that happened to be around. 12:10:30 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:57 goodbye slime, then. (you're supposed to use HEAD, right?) 12:11:06 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:11:14 (not being a debian or ubuntu user.. well not caring) 12:11:34 I learnt that on debian also for ruby the best idea was to just ignore the debian packages and use that rubygem or what it was called. 12:11:53 same for libraries as well, really. 12:12:17 and your $EDITOR, obviously. 12:13:11 nareshov, where are you from ? 12:14:45 schme: Isn't there some infrastructure for that though, such as the concept of a "partner" that can be enabled in some configuration file. 12:15:04 beach: no idea there :) 12:15:58 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.167] has joined #lisp 12:16:42 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:05 minion: tx 12:19:06 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``tx''. 12:19:13 minion: tell tx 12:19:13 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 12:19:22 beach: I would enjoy something like cabal for haskell. But I realise that well.. I would have to take the time to compose it (: 12:20:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has joined #lisp 12:20:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:21:04 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:14 hello 12:22:40 ziga`` [n=user@BSN-176-214-61.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:07 j0be [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 12:23:45 ave fe[nl]ix 12:23:55 Q: how do I retrieve the directory the current source code of the object is in. (current-directory) does not work. I use AllegroCL8.1 12:23:59 ave kiuma 12:24:37 ... (current-directory) gives back the current working directory, but not the dir the source code of the object is in. 12:26:03 j0be: don't know if that is what you're looking for, but check out *load-file-pathname* and *compile-file-pathname* 12:28:32 nareshov: didn't work for me 12:28:57 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:32 H4ns: hmmm. did not produce results. let me specify more clear. 12:31:01 -!- drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [] 12:31:24 drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:34:22 teur [n=golovnev@212.98.161.178] has joined #lisp 12:35:55 lpolzer [n=sky@dslb-088-073-195-156.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:18 benny` [n=benny@i577A7D35.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:39:38 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-20-35.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:40:11 -!- drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [] 12:40:34 drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:42:43 *sigh* 12:43:04 pjb [n=t@240.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:22 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:46:39 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1C8A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:46:41 ``Erik [n=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:41 In a macro, where (foo 'hand) I know I can do the following: `(right-,foo) => (right-hand) but is there a way to do something like this: `(,foo-right) => (hand-right)? 12:48:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:01 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D734.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:01 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 12:49:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:21 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 12:49:29 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:39 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:59 jtza8: you sure your first example works? 12:50:02 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:04 jtza8: you use `(,(intern (format nil "~A-RIGHT" ,foo))) - beware of symbol casing. 12:50:31 H4ns: does (source-file) say anything to you? 12:50:38 jtza8: you'll also be aware of *package*. maybe you want to intern into a specific package. 12:51:10 Ok. Thanks H4ns 12:51:19 -!- teur [n=golovnev@212.98.161.178] has left #lisp 12:51:38 j0be: it is acl specific. 12:52:18 j0be: slime's swank has a compatibility layer that you could use if you want to portably find source code locations. 12:52:37 j0be: if you don't need to care, acl's excl:source-file is propably just fine. 12:53:13 H4ns: the latter. Will check out source-file... now want to take the 'self... let me see how to do that.. 12:56:55 jtza8: actually, you need to explicitly ask for it (with ##) to concatenate tokens. 12:59:32 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06:03 (never mind, cross-channel misconnection) 13:07:58 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 13:10:46 Eko [n=eko@lawn-143-215-102-69.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 13:17:33 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:17:35 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:17:45 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:17:45 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:17:46 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:17:50 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 13:17:52 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 13:17:55 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:18:27 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:25:38 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-14-232.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 13:26:37 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:27:01 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:30:35 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:31:21 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-229-117.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:49 lispm [n=joswig@g224120062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:37:34 *lispm* is proud 13:37:47 *lispm* is the first person who earned the 'lisp badge' 13:37:51 ;-) 13:43:02 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 13:43:16 lispm: send pix 13:45:38 naturally 13:45:40 http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/lisp-badge.png 13:45:58 ;-) 13:46:01 wow! 13:46:04 http://stackoverflow.com/badges/141/lisp 13:46:29 :) 13:47:17 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@62.219.139.216] has quit ["Yay! I'm a llama again. http://www.shlomifish.org/"] 13:51:07 s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-233-150.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:29 hey lispm 13:51:36 you were missed last week 13:51:39 hey 13:51:48 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:51:55 sorry, true I missed that 13:52:13 I was a bit tired 13:52:21 how was it? 13:52:42 four people, and edi had to go quite early 13:53:10 anything planned for december? 13:53:17 but I got to taste the nice panna cotta 13:53:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:53:32 that's good 13:53:38 no, next meeting will be in january 13:53:52 no christmas meeting :-( 13:54:11 I guess there was no horrible pun available, like at easter 13:54:36 hi lispm 13:54:42 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-143-215-102-69.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:54:43 hi dto1 13:54:52 however, I guess you can make suggestions on the mailing list :) 13:54:56 i'm working on a new game 13:54:59 want to see? 13:55:02 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:14 yes ;) 13:55:19 dto1, sure, what is it? 13:55:21 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-63.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:30 http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/2009/11/progress-on-xiobreak.html 13:55:33 serichsen: christmas chacking! 13:55:51 haacking 13:55:53 hacking 13:56:08 rumblebee [n=alex@pns-202-248.demo.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:56:34 lispm: this is for the lisp games compo 13:56:35 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:57:01 how is that games compo going? 13:57:37 so far we have about 5 or 6 people 13:57:42 who will give it a try 13:57:48 not bad 13:57:49 the videos i just linked to are my entry 13:58:02 watching, looks nice 13:58:25 do you have sound? 13:58:33 yes 13:58:38 cool :) 13:58:45 anyway yes, 100% Common Lisp :) 13:59:01 now we need asteroids, defender, super mario and boulder dash clones ;-) 14:00:14 metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:27 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:00:48 was the big ball in the original game? 14:01:29 hmm, and space invaders 14:02:52 dto1: nicely done! 14:02:54 the big ball is new 14:02:55 :) 14:03:05 i'm going to add a few more gameplay elements before release 14:03:12 right now there's not much to do but break blocks :) 14:03:20 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:04:11 make sure that you give some game writing tutorial at some of the Lisp meetings next year 14:04:45 heh 14:06:37 I can only contribute, a resurrection of the 'double tetris' on the Lisp Machine 14:06:54 which I made working on the newer OS 14:06:56 ;-) 14:10:03 cool 14:10:07 double? 14:10:52 joswig [n=joswig@f054054038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:35 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-63.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:11:38 http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/lispm-double-tetris.png 14:11:40 oh, now the double tetris can start ;) 14:11:59 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:12 joswig: what is it - the new iMac? 14:12:18 i mean the srceen 14:12:21 nice :) 14:12:47 well, it is my screen and by default the window gets full screen - I should make it smaller 14:12:52 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-63.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:03 it is a 30" Apple Cinema Screen 14:13:29 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:53 the game use BITBLT in Lisp, which I had to figure out how it works with CLX 14:13:55 ;-) 14:14:54 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:14:56 i should cover this on the lisp games blog :) 14:14:59 what does it run on ? 14:15:16 I should make a smaller screen shot then 14:15:25 http://members.chello.at/theodor.lauppert/games/trubis.htm - i bet nobody has seen this one :) 14:15:29 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:31 that's a Symbolics Lisp Machine 14:15:35 G'morning all. 14:16:32 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-C2F2E195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 14:16:38 dto1: but there are no sound effects, explosions, or so ;-) 14:17:37 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224120062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:18:55 dto1: do you plan to write a commercial game in Lisp? 14:19:17 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633779.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:19:19 eventually. 14:20:10 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:19 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:33 -!- joswig [n=joswig@f054054038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:40 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:25:51 lispm [n=joswig@f054054038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:37 Axius [n=ade@92.82.90.238] has joined #lisp 14:27:24 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 14:29:18 -!- rumblebee [n=alex@pns-202-248.demo.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["leaving"] 14:29:41 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 14:30:05 <_deepfire> I have a latent, yet burning desire to make an RPG game. 14:30:38 what kind? 14:31:15 <_deepfire> I'm not sure. I know what kind of world I'd like to represent. 14:31:49 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBADB5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:32:08 angerman_ [n=angerman@129.187.178.26] has joined #lisp 14:33:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-63.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:34:29 I have in mind the basic structure of an RPG game, but haven't sat down to actually implement it. 14:34:39 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 14:34:51 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has left #lisp 14:34:54 At the same time, I'm aware that one of my problems will be sourcing artwork. 14:35:33 don't underestimate the task of producing a good story and writing 14:35:46 nyef: There's plenty of artists out there that want to make an RPG game, but they don't know how to program. 14:35:48 i also have a game idea for like 10 years or so now... i'm pretty sure it will not see the light of day. 14:36:29 jdz: I noticed something recently. The gl.lisp and glx.lisp files in CLX don't have copyright headers on them. 14:37:10 nyef: ok, this might be appropriate then: http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/ 14:37:33 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-89-241.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:37:43 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.114.161] has joined #lisp 14:38:49 That works, more or less. 14:39:11 I was thinking a more MIT-style license so as to fit in with most of the rest of CLX. 14:39:12 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:39:20 jdz: MIT might fit, right. 14:39:36 MIT is nice 14:39:40 nyef: sure, anything that does not prohibit other people to use the code as they see fit. 14:40:06 bonus poits for fitting in with the rest of the software licensing. 14:40:47 Okay, so I can slap a license header on there in your name? 14:40:52 nyef: Congratulations to the bug tracker for CLX. Does this mean you also intend to fix some of the bugs reported? 14:41:07 -!- cow-orke_ [n=foobar@pogostick.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:41:34 nyef: sure, will save me trouble ;) 14:41:51 beach: Thus far? ... possilbly, possibly not. The only bug reported so far is that there are no unicode keysyms. 14:41:52 i don't have any commit rights, anyway 14:43:32 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-224-205.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:42 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e196.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:45:42 -!- angerman_ is now known as angerman 14:46:16 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-89.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:47:13 You could always send a patch. 14:47:21 But I'll deal with it. 14:49:39 shortsightedsid [n=shortsig@122.172.62.59] has joined #lisp 14:50:02 Oh, and have you been having trouble with various X requests locking up after you've done any GLX calls? 14:53:59 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.90.238] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:54:44 nyef: any? 14:55:24 After any Render request. 14:55:45 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7572a2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:50 If you then try to do any X request that has a reply on stock CLX, it locks up. 14:56:01 i don't think i have experienced that specific problem. but i have never expected it to be stable to begin with... 14:56:25 (Such as the request for pulling a keyboard mapping, so as to handle keyboard input.) 14:56:32 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 14:59:08 It turns out to be a lot more stable if you call (xlib::buffer-new-request-number display) when you make up the Render request. 14:59:14 addled [i=51269b15@gateway/web/freenode/x-xhquwevjzqzczcwn] has joined #lisp 14:59:30 (Maybe we need an "extension writers guide" or something?) 15:00:31 well, i'd create a smallest imaginable GLX program that is misbehaving in both GLX and xlib and use Xmon to see what's different... 15:01:10 at least that's how i got anything to work at all... 15:01:15 Ahh. 15:01:19 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-63.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:06 maybe in the 4 years or so some documentation has appeared where the numbers traveling the line are specified? 15:02:29 Oh, I found the wire protocol documentation, and it turned out to be mostly right, but... 15:02:37 It's wrong in places, and incomplete. 15:02:53 (Doesn't cover gl:enable, for example.) 15:03:08 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-63.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:41 For gl:enable and gl:disable I ended up just looking at the C XLib source because they weren't in the protocol document, and found "hey, wait... these are -rendering- commands..." 15:04:09 I think that was one of the last things for getting texture mapping to at least show up on the screen. 15:04:36 have you had any contact with Ryohei Ueda? 15:04:39 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-63.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:39 there seems to be a hunchentoot repository at http://bknr.net/trac/browser/trunk/thirdparty/hunchentoot 15:04:50 how can I get at that with svn? 15:05:28 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-40-147.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:06:08 Not that I'm aware of. 15:06:40 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 15:07:00 acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has joined #lisp 15:07:07 I was nailing this down towards the beginning of june, and moved on once I got something on the screen. 15:07:15 nyef: that guy sent me his finding that making gl:enable a rendering command makes the gears example work (at the start of october). 15:07:25 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has joined #lisp 15:07:38 he's writing an egine of some kind in CL with GLX 15:07:39 http://garaemon.net/wordpress/ 15:07:41 Yeah, I saw something about that on your glx page. 15:07:44 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:25 hmm, i think i should point him to your clx repo 15:08:46 or rather, update my glx page to point to your repo since you're now the official maintainer of it :) 15:09:05 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 15:09:10 -!- shortsightedsid [n=shortsig@122.172.62.59] has quit [] 15:09:27 Mmm... I'll probably merge my GLX fixes to the mainline soon. 15:10:27 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:17 Looks like he's done his own set of FFI bindings to xlib and friends instead of sticking with CLX. 15:14:32 I can't quite say I blame him, either, really. He'll get direct OpenGL acceleration that way. 15:16:30 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.148.140] has joined #lisp 15:16:44 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:17:38 -!- aerique [n=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:18:18 sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:18:42 nyef: what's your CLX fork github address again? 15:19:38 http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/abridgewater/clx.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/glx-fixes 15:19:44 (It's not on github so far as I know.) 15:20:00 oh, no wonder i could not find it... 15:20:10 i was pretty sure it's on github... 15:20:54 Afraid not. I have an SBCL tree on repo.or.cz and a couple things on my clnet account, and that's basically it. 15:21:34 well that's my own brain playing games with me. no worries. 15:21:51 does anyone has a good example of interactive, live CL demonstration? 15:24:28 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:51 minion: slime.mov? 15:27:51 slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 15:28:21 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:28:23 ye, was just about to mention recent-slime-related-video-which-i-don't-know-the-url-for. 15:30:27 I was certainly going to show slime.mov, but I was thinking of stuff you could do during presentation :) 15:30:28 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-48-83.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:46 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 15:31:12 -!- beach` is now known as beach 15:31:38 I'll probably need to setup a LispM-like theme for my Emacs as well... better contrast on projector 15:32:59 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 15:34:08 BTW, how many people here could do testing for Lisp environment on win32/win64? 15:34:34 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:34:38 <_deepfire> p_l, what do you mean? 15:37:01 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:32 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:18 _deepfire: A very simple to use, click-to-install environment capable of installing clbuild/asdf-install stuff 15:38:18 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 15:39:03 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:39:27 Basically, a MSI package with CLISP, CCL, Emacs, SLIME, and tools necessary to download and install code 15:40:07 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 15:40:26 clisp and ccl? 15:40:47 stassats: the idea is to make it modular from start 15:41:12 clisp isn't the best with slime 15:41:37 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:41:54 is it related to threading support? 15:42:21 No, more related to arglist support, I'd have thought. 15:42:50 <_deepfire> Also call frames.. 15:43:03 arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.47.120] has joined #lisp 15:43:16 And I distinctly remember it being far too easy to lose my connection last time I tried clisp+slime on win32. 15:43:31 not much people are using it, so it's not as featureful and tested as other backends 15:43:46 hi 15:44:22 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-25-174.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:44:59 <_deepfire> p_l, btw, apropos click-to-install, what do you think about emergent post-clbuild solutions? 15:45:24 milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.94] has joined #lisp 15:46:26 I think that two trends, if properly established, could seriously help. First, release engineering and release-early-release-often. Second, considering ASDF to be more a part of the problem than a part of the solution. 15:47:22 nyef: I still consider that making a cabal/gem like system (in usage, not in actual architecture) would help a lot with those two trends 15:47:37 with Haskell, I don't have to worry about setting up project page etc. 15:47:49 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:47:50 I can just generate a package and upload it to hackage 15:48:11 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633779.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 15:48:29 gems support something similar for rubyforge, iirc 15:49:06 (and github includes automatic builder bot that generates gems from repository every time you change version number in gemspec) 15:50:10 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-20-35.iburst.co.za] has quit ["leaving"] 15:52:55 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:05 dv___ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:54:33 -!- addled [i=51269b15@gateway/web/freenode/x-xhquwevjzqzczcwn] has quit ["Page closed"] 15:58:25 for example, with hackage, I create a user, make my package compatible with Cabal, and either manually upload it or use "cabal upload" 16:00:23 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-4-80.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:41 ThomasI [n=thomas@91-64-196-193-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:00:59 Guthur [i=c13dbf2e@gateway/web/freenode/x-chpcdiousgwkbmkk] has joined #lisp 16:02:18 -!- angerman [n=angerman@129.187.178.26] has quit [] 16:06:45 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:02 -!- drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [] 16:08:12 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf2e@gateway/web/freenode/x-chpcdiousgwkbmkk] has quit ["Page closed"] 16:08:42 addled [i=51269b15@gateway/web/freenode/x-cedcnsgnjdljyyzy] has joined #lisp 16:09:14 hi, are there any more succinct ways of defining classes? Specifing slot names, initargs, init and acceptors look rather verbose to me. 16:09:28 minion, tell akamaus about defclass-star 16:09:29 akamaus: have a look at defclass-star: The end of the page was reached before a definition was found in http://www.cliki.net/defclass-star 16:11:23 Adlai, great, thanks! 16:12:05 -!- davazp [n=user@41.Red-83-52-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["out"] 16:13:44 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-199-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:17:15 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-63.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:17:22 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 16:18:31 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:44 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:19:47 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 16:19:52 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:20:46 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:50 arwed [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:21:21 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 16:23:56 Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-120-184.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 16:24:02 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.245.101] has joined #lisp 16:25:54 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-163-24.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:27:12 -!- ziga`` [n=user@BSN-176-214-61.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has left #lisp 16:27:47 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:29:30 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:48 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:33:04 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:00 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:39:29 akamaus: please don't use defclass*... class definitions are supposed to be verbose. 16:39:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:15 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:45 akamaus: i read class definitions more than i write them, and appreciate the verbosity as a documentation tool. If you have a specific need for a specific definition that's repeated often, a define-foo macro is an idea. If you just want initargs, slot names and accessors to have the same name, you're doing it wrong! 16:41:54 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:57 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:45:17 akamaus, IMHO use defclass* or something along the lines whenever you find a pattern in your class definitions 16:49:14 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:49:45 While it looks like there might be a pattern in the slot definitions, I find there rarely is. Some slots have initforms, some do not, som have initargs, some do not, some have readers, some have accessors. 16:50:23 drewc, does it really help to have repeating patterns in code? In my opinion verbosity doesn't necessary give you new information 16:51:22 akamaus: repeating patterns in code? every function i define starts with 'defun', every macro, defmacro.. is this a repeating pattern or a declaration of intent? 16:51:50 drewc, it's the declaration here 16:53:14 drewc, but something like that http://paste.lisp.org/display/91273 is too verbose imho. 16:53:16 akamaus: so, are you writing classes where every slot must have an accessor names after the slot, and an initarg names after the slot? If you are, i'd suggest that you're doing it wrong! If not, and every slot needs an accessor and an initarg with different names, then maybe you have a DEFINE-MY-THING macro in the future. 16:53:25 akamaus: There's nothing wrong with using a macro to factor out common patterns. 16:53:45 akamaus: not verbose enough IMO.. where's the protocol definition? 16:53:58 akamaus: If you find that it saves enough effort and increases maintanability beyond what it detracts from immediate readability, that is. 16:54:43 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [] 16:54:57 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:57 drewc, not ready yet. right now I just want to parse big xml into my types 16:56:06 akamaus: If you use defclass the anyone who knows CL will know what you are doing. 16:56:32 *beach* tends to aggree with drewc. 16:56:33 akamaus: If you use buasld then they'll have to find what that means in your code first. 16:56:35 drewc, and after it I'll need to transform it a little and render it again as html 16:56:53 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-163-24.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:39 Zhivago, that's why from the first sight I liked the defclass-star approach. Seems it's quite similar to regular defclass definitions 16:57:39 I agree with drewc and beach, but I will also temper that by saying that while developing it's not obvious what the interface to classes is going to look like, so I can see why :initarg :foo :accessor foo is tempting 16:58:20 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-120-184.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:58:54 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 16:59:23 akamaus: if you're doing CLOS correctly (imnsho), you start with DEGENERICs to define the 'protocol' or 'interface'. Only then do you create classes and methods that fill in the details. some methods might be implemented as :Accessors or :readers, some as defmethods, etc... so i think a macro that defines classes like defclass* to be at the wrong level of abstraction entirely.... classes are an implementation detail. 17:00:24 Krystof: it's not obvious what the interface will be, so you start with a full interface and remove the parts you don't use, or do you fill in the details as you need them? 17:00:54 drewc, probably you are right. But what should I use when I mostly need some means to organize my data? 17:01:10 akamaus: lisp! :D 17:01:18 ;) 17:01:29 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:08 lists of all kinds look to similar to me 17:02:09 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 17:02:11 akamaus: where you actually store the data depends a lot on the problem, but i usually use instances of classes... i'm a CLOS fanatic myself. 17:02:40 I know there is a defstruct macro, but they say it's deprecated 17:03:09 akamaus: but classes don't have behavior, it's generic functions that define that... struct or class shouldn't matter much to the consumer of the protocol. 17:04:19 defstruct is not deprecated. 17:05:04 sykopomp, how does defstruct relate to clos? 17:05:41 -!- Dodek_ [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:05:47 akamaus: defstruct defines types that CLOS' generic functions can dispatch on. 17:06:02 classes, rather 17:06:20 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:06:22 drewc, looks like I used to think in terms of data types. Several years of coding in Haskell are probably the reason )) 17:06:44 yeah, classes 17:07:02 akamaus: everything is lisp has a class, including structs. 17:07:11 Indeed. Classes are a subset of types. Defstruct defines a "structure class", which is a very different animal than what you get from defclass, but it's still a class, thus can still be specialized on in methods. 17:07:37 drewc: Before I know what the protocols are going to look like, I tend to guess, and then I correct later. I already have an idea of what slots will be immutable, whether I need :initforms, etc. And then when I'm wrong, I fix. 17:07:48 Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-120-184.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 17:08:03 akamaus: CLOS classes are much heavier weight, but they can do things like multiple inheritance, and you can redefine them at runtime, and all sorts of other things. 17:08:12 nyef, what's the main difference between structure class and class from defclass? 17:08:15 akamaus: structs tend to be used for simpler, lighter-weight tasks. 17:08:25 akamaus: Redefinition semantics. 17:08:41 sykopomp|work, probably I just need structs when 17:08:47 nyef: and inheritance, and compiled accessors... 17:09:10 <_deepfire> akamaus, the structs will make you bleed when you will add/delete/change slots. 17:09:13 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.148.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:17 Compiled accessors is not a "main" difference. 17:09:24 I'll buy inheritance, though. 17:09:25 _deepfire, you mean in runtime? 17:09:26 beach: fair enough, i do that to a certain extent (often my defgenerics come long after my defclass, tbh). But i prefer to leave out an :initarg or :accessor and add it in when i need it then to just add it thinking i might need it. 17:09:35 <_deepfire> akamaus, yes 17:09:39 <_deepfire> akamaus, err 17:09:48 <_deepfire> akamaus, while developing in slime 17:09:53 anytime... you can't redefine structs. 17:09:58 oh.. 17:09:58 akamaus: classes can be easier to work with interactively. You can run into some pain where you have to force-compile a system in order to update when you change a struct layout. 17:10:08 <_deepfire> drewc, well, you can, but.. 17:10:45 _deepfire: true enough.. as long as you don't change them, you can redefine them all you want :) 17:10:47 <_deepfire> Struct redefinition is like macro redefinition: you need to be mindful of the consequences on the code which uses them. 17:11:18 <_deepfire> drewc, I think you paint it too black. 17:11:20 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-120-184.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:11:33 LiamH1 [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:11:37 _deepfire: compared to redefinition of CLOS classes, structs can be pretty painful. 17:11:40 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:53 <_deepfire> sykopomp, same as macros, really. 17:12:01 structs are nice when you just need something very lightweight, though. They definitely have their niche, and it's fantastic that you can still have single-inheritance with them. 17:12:19 <_deepfire> Slime won't recompile code using changed macros. 17:12:27 -!- LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 17:12:29 <_deepfire> Automagically, that is. 17:12:54 <_deepfire> We might actually want something like WHO-STRUCTEXPANDS. 17:13:16 structs seem to fail more spectacularly in that respect, I think. Macros can be pretty silent about it... 17:13:36 <_deepfire> sykopomp, that's only for hysterical raisins, IMO. 17:14:21 <_deepfire> Well, no. 17:14:37 _deepfire: i'm 90% sure that incompatibly redefining a struct is undefined, nasal daemons, etc. 17:15:05 a sufficiently smart compiler could automatically recompile all uses, of course. :) 17:15:05 <_deepfire> drewc, you still have lisp objects in there, if you run safe it's not so undefined. 17:15:10 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483A903.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:24 <_deepfire> foom, more like sufficiently smart slime, methinks. 17:15:50 _deepfire: I can't reproduce your ASDF bug here. The only difference, I suppose, is that I use the stock ASDF of 1.0.33 17:16:02 shrug, I'd really prefer if all that kind of magic was in the compiler itself. :) 17:16:11 by the way, what happens to live class instances when class definition changes? 17:16:21 akamaus: They get updated. 17:16:22 _deepfire: run safe? i wear proper shoes... but i still can't redefine a struct and expect it to work! 17:16:31 akamaus: there is a protocol for updating them.. 17:16:33 update-instance-for-redefined-class, wasn't it? 17:16:38 clhs update-instance-for-redefined-class 17:16:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upda_1.htm 17:16:52 clhs update-instance-for-different-class 17:17:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_update.htm 17:17:15 cmon specky... 17:17:38 *drewc* loves speckbot 17:17:48 :) 17:18:16 It's such a small thing, too. 17:18:48 _deepfire: " The consequences of redefining a defstruct structure are undefined." ... that's very much undefined.. so undefined it's stated so rather than simply not defined! 17:19:35 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:53 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:58 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-raaggqnrwvjhlnjk] has joined #lisp 17:20:31 _deepfire: i don't see how that is at all related to redefining a macro, which is very well defined to have specific behaviour. 17:21:41 <_deepfire> drewc, ok, you don't see it at all. 17:22:24 _deepfire: no, i don't... can you enlighten me? 17:22:44 <_deepfire> I have better things to do with my time. 17:22:49 I see classes in lisp are very different from classes in C++. Is there some collection of common pitfalls for C++ programmers moving to lisp? 17:23:08 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:23:17 _deepfire: So, you're wrong, and can't come up with a face-saver? or are we simply talking past eachother? 17:23:26 akamaus: That would be a huge collection. 17:23:33 akamaus: forget everything you know. 17:23:36 akamaus: forget everything 17:23:42 damn, beaten to it 17:24:01 <_deepfire> akamaus, you might want to take a look at http://mikael.jansson.be/log/newbie-guide-to-lisp-oo 17:24:38 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 17:25:18 drewc: I start with a convenient interface that minimizes general verbosity (no need for constant with-slots, slot-value, &c) 17:25:19 budda_ [n=budda@p57A6414A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:24 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:41 I have two start points - C++ and Haskell. Lisp seems to be equally far away from both 17:26:01 <_deepfire> drewc, look, we both understand that the compiler might optimize #'+ on :type integer slot operations into raw instructions. We also both know what effect higher safety settings have. 17:26:14 Krystof: i use slot-value sometimes... usually for a specific internal slot that is only accessed from inside another accessor. 17:26:21 _deepfire, thanks for a link 17:26:36 akamaus: then you'll have to start anew. 17:26:45 _deepfire: it doesn't matter how a compiler might do anything when it's defined that it can do _anything_. 17:27:26 Krystof: but besides that, yeah... i shouldn't really give the advice to start with DEFGENERIC when i don't often do so myself (initially). 17:27:29 akamaus, there's also the case when your classes are your interface 17:27:55 levente_meszaros: There is? 17:28:11 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:28:15 drewc: have a preference for SLOT-VALUE versus an accessor with a name like %attribute that clearly signals "internalness" 17:28:23 ? 17:28:30 beach, I think so 17:28:41 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, thanks for taking time to investigate! 17:29:08 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:29:11 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, I have that issue with 1.0.33's ASDF too. 17:29:15 rpg: not really.. i just prefer slot-value in that case, as i know i'm accessing a slot directly and i don't want methods on %foo to exist. 17:29:18 drewc: There are so many things undefined in the standard, and still you take it for granted that an implementation of appropriate quality DTRT 17:29:20 beach, say you have a code walker which transforms a lisp form into an AST of CLOS instances 17:29:25 levente_meszaros: That you'll have to explain, because typically your interface (or rather protocol) may have classes in it, but the generic functions are usually much more important. 17:29:34 you may want to export accessors and class names 17:29:58 tcr: what is trt? without update-instance-for-redifined-structure-class, can any compiler dtrt? 17:30:12 beach, obviously I'm not saying it is always the case 17:30:24 levente_meszaros: I can see how a classes might be *part of* the inteface, but now how they *are* the interface. 17:30:34 (and if a compiler offers such a thing, then what advantage have structs over classes?) 17:30:37 drewc: Sure, Allegro implements structure on top of CLOS so it always seems to do the right thing. On SBCL, it's ok to add slots to the end. 17:30:47 rpg: I'm gonna try and make it tonight, but it's my first day at work, so I don't know if I'll be able to. 17:30:52 thanks anyone for all the suggestions. I have to leave now 17:31:07 levente_meszaros: In fact, I can't think of a single case where the interface would consist of only classes. 17:31:34 well I wasn't clear enough then, I meant that the class names and the accessor functions are part of the interface 17:31:47 in walker you could end up with two additional methods for walking/unwalking 17:31:53 the rest is make-instance/accessors 17:32:02 levente_meszaros: That I agree with, but it is also a very different statement from the one I reacted to. 17:32:07 levente_meszaros: and by accessors you mean generic functions, right? 17:32:12 drewc: I find structures more pleasant to work with then classes in many cases. Ironically, especially for prototyping 17:32:44 drewc, are there not so generic accessors I don't know of? ;-) 17:33:01 levente_meszaros: just saying that the accessors are the interface, not the class. 17:33:14 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:26 drewc, the class too, because you want to call make-instance as a user 17:33:31 with the slot initargs, etc 17:34:03 levente_meszaros: fair enough yeah... i don't make many make-foo constructors.. none if the users is expected to subclass. 17:35:11 tcr: i have done that too.. structs for quicker accessor definition really (an argument _for_ defclass*?). I have also found myself renaming that struct a few times as i refine it and need to incompatibly change the definition. 17:35:55 but in general I agree with that any non trivial protocol will end up in generic functions which may or may not be mapped partially to accessors... 17:35:55 pfoetchen [n=jo@dslb-092-075-114-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:57 drewc: yes, the reason is that defstruct is more convenient to use (and does more like predicate / copier / and especially printer), and that its accessors are ftype'd appropriately according to :type slots 17:37:10 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:20 drewc: when prototyping I have no problem with restarting a lot, and the static type information will easily find inconsistent uses 17:37:21 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:37:37 tcr: no argument here, i've done the same thing. 17:38:02 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:38:05 (and yeah, the predicate/copier and the fact that they can be printed readably is huge) 17:38:10 I don't like defclass* but I'd be content with a define-structlike-class 17:38:29 because it lets experienced CLers know what it'll do 17:38:33 KatchaFire [n=bernie@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:36 tcr: defstruct with a metaclass perhaps? 17:38:58 Yeah indeed 17:39:05 levente_meszaros: I'm inclined to think that Keene's right and not have make-instance be part of the protocol. After a bunch of years I've come to prefer named constructurs. 17:39:07 (:type :class) 17:39:27 Wouldn't that be a valid extension? 17:39:55 rpg: what is you are defining a set of classes that are meant to be extended... what's the point of make-foo? 17:40:02 s/is/if 17:40:04 rpg, that would result in multiple make-instance generic functions pretty soon 17:40:13 drewc: MAKE-FOO can have useful arglist information. 17:40:26 make-instance is pretty much "anything goes, hope it works." 17:40:30 not at all 17:40:43 rpg, that's the stupidness of the editor... 17:40:47 you just use an inferior emacs lisp environment 17:40:56 rpg: I also agree with that, though there are very few cases when exposing make-instance is a problem. When those cases happen, though, it is very problematic if you don't have named constructors. 17:40:58 you should ask for some support from Franz 17:42:02 beach: I used to use make-instance all the time, but I've come to conclude that it is insufficient support for the people who read my code. 17:42:06 <_deepfire> Ah, the harmed industry.. 17:42:37 i use make-foo's when the user shouldn't care if there's an instance or a struct or a list behind it. When i'm making an abstract class that itself is meant to be extended before being used, there is of course no point, as making FOO's does nothing :) 17:42:47 rpg: Well, it's worse than that, because the exact class that you create might depend on some context that you can pass to the explicit constructor. 17:43:11 yeah, make-instance has to return an instance of the class passed to it, IIRC. 17:43:31 how unfortunate 17:44:14 I think also the provision of named constructors is a good crutch for me, because it makes me pause a moment and think about how I expect the caller to use my code. 17:45:00 I like explicit constructors because it can have required parameters 17:45:13 Perhaps if there was a more successful documentation program for CL it would be less necessary. For lack of a better, I often find myself reading defpackage :exports as a way to divine the API of some piece of code I'm reading. 17:45:15 Yeah rpg 17:45:47 that is an excellent point rpg. 17:45:47 People who are less slobby than me may need this discipline less than I do. 17:46:26 I also think the arglist bit is a valid point 17:47:14 rpg, I guess exported classes are meant to be instantiated with make-instance 17:47:14 And I work with too many people who always build their defclass forms with ( :accessor :initarg :) by force of habit! ;-) 17:47:17 make-instance's arglist is easily crowded, and not the most relevant keywords are on the front 17:47:20 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:47:21 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 17:47:52 rpg: such people should be brought out back the barn and shot! 17:47:58 Jabberwockey [n=jens@mue-88-130-108-170.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:32 I recently committed a patch to slime which tries to shuffle make-instance keywords according to context 17:48:37 where context is *package* 17:48:37 drewc: when you're doing work for such people it's not clear that's the way to have delighted cusomers ;-) 17:48:51 drewc: OTOH, of course, you wouldn't have displeased customers, either. 17:49:40 rpg: and your happiness depends on their life insurance and the terms of your contract... 17:50:02 Thanks for the discussion; it was thought-provoking. I have to go now; shifting hot-spots... 17:50:18 tcr: the *package* of the class being make-instanced? 17:50:48 drewc: no the value of *package* (which in Slime is actually most often the buffer package) 17:51:50 tcr: i'm confused... how does one find the "package" of a keyword argument if not via the slot-definition? 17:52:14 I do an BFS on the package inheritance graph, number the packages accordingly and sort the parameters according to these numbers 17:52:46 :keywords get number of 0 though, and everyone is using keywords anyway so that feature is usually not something you see in action 17:53:31 Though it'll ensure that AllegroCache cruft is sorted to the end of an arglist which was the actual reason I did that 17:54:07 oh ok... well, you could iterate though the slotds and order the keywords based on which package the class in which they are defined occurs.... 17:54:37 i find myself using non-keyword initargs more and more often these days actually. 17:54:37 That's true 17:55:16 drewc: but my code is generic and applies to all functions 17:55:23 not just make-instance 17:55:36 tcr: well, that's a little harder then. :) 17:56:13 it does not apply to all functions, only those where we grab keywords from different sources 17:56:39 including ERROR, and conditions are not necessarily clos classes 17:57:17 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:57:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:57:50 drewc: did you upgrade work flawlessly, btw? 17:58:09 Are you enjoying the new features? 17:59:52 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-203-51.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:16 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 18:02:35 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-77-201.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:03:09 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:03:17 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:01 heh, this case is better than Haskells type checker: (partial-eval '(intersection (list x) (list x)) :inline-function-calls '(intersection member)) -> (cons x nil) 18:05:08 which covers an infinite number of cases 18:07:21 the obvious case (partial-eval '(intersection nil x) :inline-function-calls '(intersection)) -> nil works of course 18:07:29 wondering what other interesting cases are there 18:08:45 <_deepfire> levente_meszaros, where partial-eval comes from? 18:09:02 tcr: i have not yet had occasion to restart my lisp/emacs actually... might as well do that today :) 18:09:03 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-83-208.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 18:09:08 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:08 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-89-241.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:09:08 _deepfire, from dwim.hu 18:09:18 the system is called hu.dwim.partial-eval 18:09:37 <_deepfire> levente_meszaros, thanks! 18:09:51 there are some pending patches though, but it already gives life signs 18:10:13 like partially evaluating make-instance down to the same level as SBCL's hand made optimizations 18:10:30 *_deepfire* uses a custom, underspecified, bug-ridden partial evaluator for his bit-banging purposes 18:10:49 http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.partial-eval/test/make-instance.lisp 18:10:56 see the results at the end 18:11:15 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:11:39 _deepfire, I'm not saying that this is superperfect, but it is certainly customizable and can already do a fair job on various test cases 18:11:42 see the test suite 18:13:09 <_deepfire> levente, one quick question (without glancing at docs) -- could one add a hook to evaluate, say, keywords, using context-specific dictionaries? 18:13:48 *_deepfire* uses keywords to name bitfield values 18:14:25 well, there's not too many docs :) 18:14:30 but certainly you could 18:14:42 all the partial evaluation is done using layered functions 18:14:52 so you can practically customize it to death 18:15:08 the tests will tell you how it works 18:15:15 <_deepfire> Thanks! 18:15:17 the code from the link doesn't fit on my screen horizontally 18:15:58 stassats, I have the HTML fix for that just didn't have time to put it in place 18:16:08 *levente_meszaros* leaves to do sport 18:16:28 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:34 fixing code is better 18:16:42 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:17:52 skeptomai [n=cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:07 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-48-133.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:20 <_deepfire> stassats, it can be a black hole sucking your health dry, and depriving you from ability to continue. 18:22:43 <_deepfire> stassats, sport actually keeps you productive 18:22:50 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:23:06 i meant better than fixing html 18:23:15 <_deepfire> Oh :-) 18:23:56 i was really confused by your first sentence 18:24:11 <_deepfire> I think long lines are the right thing, actually. 18:24:32 <_deepfire> MORE CODE on the screen 18:24:39 if they fit onto your screen, maybe 18:25:03 <_deepfire> Widescreen LCDs with 1680x1050 _are_ cheap. 18:25:43 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:56 i won't buy a new screen because someones code is too long 18:26:23 <_deepfire> more like "I won't help myself to become more productive" 18:26:53 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:26:55 i question that 18:26:57 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:27:10 <_deepfire> you probably didn't even try 18:28:03 you sound like you are trying to sell me something 18:28:36 he probably has a stake in samsung so wants you to buy a new monitor, hehe 18:28:51 <_deepfire> Guthur, sssh! 18:29:16 i find reading text in small columns faster 18:29:45 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-085-170.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:30:11 i have actually recently found merit in having a narrower emacs window that only takes up about half the screen width 18:30:59 handy if one is referencing from the web 18:32:20 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-36-195.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:30 Guthur: Actually, I often have an Emacs window split in two horizontally, so that I have (say) source code on the left and SLIME on the right, then on the other screen (that one also 1600x1200) I have my application running, and some documentation. 18:33:29 with that i agree more 18:33:33 beach yes that would be ideal, i was using a split in emacs as well for awhile, 18:33:38 Guthur: I now consider two screens of 1600x1200 to be minimal comfort, and I am equipping the secretaries with that as well as the student labs. 18:33:54 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:17 i'm doing some opengl stuff which requires a lot of referencing to the web as i am rather new to the api 18:34:17 *_3b* like lots of narrow emacs frames 18:34:28 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 18:34:43 <_3b> unless every single line is very long, more columns = more code :p 18:34:46 But the world seems to be going 1600x1024 which is just not enough vertical pixels to display an entire page of a document legibly. 18:35:19 it will be a while before i can afford another monitor unfortunately 18:35:53 minion: memo for porcelina: draw-string-solid-* does not support newlines. If you need to render text on more than one line, then you need several calls to draw-string-solid-* with increasing values of y. 18:35:54 Remembered. I'll tell porcelina when he/she/it next speaks. 18:36:06 *stassats* doesn't want a second monitor, because he doesn't want to move his head from one to another 18:36:41 stassats: Put them further away. 18:37:03 stassats: get another head, too. 18:37:06 then i will need bigger fonts, and i will lose all those additional pixels 18:37:14 beach: some monitors swivel 90 degrees so that the display becomes 1024x1600. I have one of those. 18:37:15 stassats: Use glasses. 18:37:22 get an automatically rotating desktop that spins the monitor into focus when required 18:37:26 *beach* finds it amazing how much people confuse monitor size and resolution. 18:37:40 you may have to design and build it though 18:37:48 Balooga: Yeah, but then I can't have 4 documents in a row. 18:37:50 beach: then monitors will be magnified and i will still need to move my head 18:37:55 beach: There's no confusion: it's 72 pixels to the inch, always. 18:38:05 stassats: Not true. 18:38:24 <_3b> beach: doesn't help that they market them that way too :( 18:38:51 nyef: I mean that people often offer me a bigger monitor rather than one with higher resolution, and they don't see the difference. 18:39:15 more resolution means either bigger screen or lesser fonts 18:39:16 I suppose that's true enough. 18:39:21 nyef: Mine has 1600/400mm. What does that give me? 18:39:36 I am guessing 100 pixels to the inch. 18:39:38 I could do with something better than 1280x800 with about a 12.1 inch diagonal. 18:40:02 *_3b* wishes they would sell high res panels outside laptops :( 18:40:08 <_deepfire> nyef, ouch! 18:40:23 Trying to concentrate after the long weeekend. 18:40:28 _deepfire: What's ouch? The low resolution or the low panel size? 18:40:35 wrong window. 18:40:51 <_deepfire> nyef, size 18:40:54 nyef: I think that has improved lately. 18:41:17 _deepfire: Nothing wrong with the size. 18:41:29 Okay, it -is- a bit large. 18:42:15 Bronsa [n=bronsa@host67-176-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:43:12 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:43:41 nareshov: your patch for squeeze lisp didn't work for me 18:44:21 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 18:47:04 *pjb* has ordered a Dell Ultrasharp 2209WA 22" TFT LCD :-) 18:47:52 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:06 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:07 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:45 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:04 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:51:08 -_-; thinking recursively is rly hard. 18:51:08 porcelina, memo from Balooga: draw-string-solid-* does not support newlines. If you need to render text on more than one line, then you need several calls to draw-string-solid-* with increasing values of y. 18:52:00 o, thx balooga. ;x i'm working on splitting the string so i can do that now. ^_^ 18:53:07 -!- arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.47.120] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 18:53:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:12 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EFCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:24 UrchinStar [n=mjankovi@193.198.193.4] has joined #lisp 18:57:27 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.137.242] has joined #lisp 19:00:46 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ewphmcohjqkrzcmd] has joined #lisp 19:00:58 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-224-205.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:01:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:34 porcelina: thinking recursively is really easy. 19:02:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:02 porcelina: you just have to deal with the base case, and then reduce the problem to something slightly simplier. 19:03:16 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:13 -!- KatchaFire [n=bernie@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 19:06:30 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:43 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:01 Anyone from cll on the channel? I'm trying to run lispbuilder-sdl in CCL/win32 from SLIME. It just hangs though. However is works fine when run from the CCL repl itself (No emacs/slime). 19:10:00 Balooga: anything interesting in *inferior-lisp* or *slime-events* buffers? 19:10:24 stassats: Nothing at all. No messages. The repl just hangs. 19:10:51 does *inferior-lisp* work? 19:11:45 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:51 rajeshsr [n=rajeshsr@59.92.79.54] has joined #lisp 19:12:21 keiya_ [n=keiya@pool-71-98-4-118.mdsnwi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:46 stassats: Slime/swank connect. I use (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :lispbuilder-sdl-examples) and files are compiled etc. Then when I run an example (sdl-examples:bezeir), for example, the repl never returns and the example is not run. 19:13:06 rpg_ [n=rpg@c-75-73-48-133.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:21 Balooga: that i understood, but does repl in *inferior-lisp* work? 19:13:32 my roommate had that problem last night on emacs 19:13:42 stassats: Oh. I'll try it. 19:13:47 *_deepfire* wonders how hard would it be to grovel kernel headers to walk kernel structures of a target 19:13:49 it just like doesn't open the window and then freezes. and occasionally memory errors. 19:14:27 porcelina: Using what lisp environment? 19:14:29 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:53 sbcl 19:14:57 on kubunut 19:15:46 kubuntu* 19:16:04 Hey, does anyone know if whoever controls the clbuild repo is ever going to fix the broken crcs in it? >_> 19:16:29 sctb [n=sctb@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:40 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:43 the broken what? 19:17:29 porcelina: Can you get him to provide more detail? sbcl & lb-sdl has been pretty well behaved for a while now. 19:17:43 darcs gzcrcs --help 19:18:04 darcs failed: No such command 'gzcrcs' 19:18:18 i can after school tonight 19:18:33 are you on the lb-sdl mailing list? 19:18:37 Update your darcs 19:18:54 stassats: Yes, *inferior-lisp* continues to function. 19:19:09 porcelina: Yes. 19:19:20 porcelina: Yes. I am on the mailing list. 19:19:22 i'll post it to that. 19:19:28 Balooga: does this happen only on windows? 19:19:43 satassats: it happens to my roommate on ubuntu 19:19:57 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:21:00 ok, i'll get lispbuilder-sdl and look if there's any slime problems 19:21:07 keiya_: at the moment, I'm still trying to understand the original query 19:21:07 stassats: I'm only running Windows, yes. It is part of my periodic cross-lisp/platform lb-sdl test. 19:21:28 _deepfire: are you the one with the ASDF problem? 19:21:35 <_deepfire> rpg_, yes 19:22:11 <_deepfire> rpg_, fe[nl]ix (Stelian) said he couldn't reproduce it using my testcase 19:22:24 stassats: The lb-sdl examples work when run from the *inferior-lisp*, I just confirmed. Just not from the slime repl. 19:22:26 _deepfire: I'm groveling over the ASDF code and I simply can't see it. dherring claims that find-system loads all the .asd files, but that simply isn't true, unless this is in some SBCL or site-specific configuration. 19:22:33 Versions of darcs >=1.0.4 and <2.2.0 had a bug that caused compressed files 19:22:35 with bad CRCs (but valid data) to be written out. CRCs were not checked on 19:22:35 reading, so this bug wasn't noticed. 19:22:45 dherring's claim seems just plain wrong, afaict. 19:23:12 <_deepfire> rpg_, I think he misworded something.. it doesn't seem right to me as well 19:23:14 porcelina: A few users of lb-sdl hang out on #lispgames as well. Just fyi. 19:23:29 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:46 _deepfire: find-system will load only /one/ .asd file. 19:24:10 unless, of course, in your .asd you tell it to load a system 19:24:58 <_deepfire> People abuse ASDF every day, and putting REQUIRE's and calls to OOS are routine. CL-UTILITIES is one of many. 19:25:20 -!- Bronsa [n=bronsa@host67-176-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["leaving"] 19:25:31 <_deepfire> Ok, the above line was not terribly english, but you get the idea. 19:25:32 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:34 _deepfire: People /must/ abuse ASDF that way, because there's no other way to say "I need this ASDF add-on in order for my defsystem to be loadable." 19:26:10 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:40 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 19:27:12 <_deepfire> rpg_, in the case of CL-UTILITIES two facts apply: 1) the require is at the end; 2) the required thing is SB-ROTATE-BYTE 19:27:39 <_deepfire> I.e. the loaded add-on is not essential for loadability of the system definition itself. 19:28:24 porcelina: Hi again :) 19:28:32 and again the wrong channel. 19:28:41 lol 19:28:51 _deepfire: OK. That seems like a cl-utilities bug, then. 19:29:18 waht's the difference between asdf:oos and asdf:operate ? 19:29:46 <_deepfire> rpg_, I wouldn't be so sure. cl-utilities certainly doesn't ask for CLIM stuff. 19:29:53 zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:29:58 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-48-133.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:11 _deepfire: But you asked for CLIM stuff on your command line. 19:30:13 <_deepfire> Also, it's not a bug, as this is heavily underspecified area. 19:30:23 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:31:11 _deepfire: s/bug/suboptimality. One would like to load the sb-rotate byte immediately before loading the system, not the system definition, but ASDF makes that well-nigh impossible. 19:31:23 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:31:33 <_deepfire> rpg_, do you understand my motivation here, btw? 19:31:59 _deepfire: That's what I don't understand about your example --- you have -e "(find-system :mcclim)" in your command line.... 19:32:10 _deepfire: not fully... 19:32:17 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 19:33:14 <_deepfire> rpg_, basically, I need a way to find out "hidden" system definitions. Hidden system definitions are those thich reside in a file whose pathname-name is different from system name. 19:34:03 _deepfire: right. and those are rife in mcclim. 19:34:30 <_deepfire> rpg_, so far, binding *defined-systems* to an empty hash-table around a call to find-system (passing it a "visible" system) worked surprisingly well 19:35:54 <_deepfire> My problem is -- the result of this procedure varies depending on what was loaded before. 19:36:17 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-085-170.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:18 _deepfire: I still don't understand why things were not as you expected in that posting. The McCLIM loading comes from your command line, right? 19:36:50 <_deepfire> rpg, right, but -- I bind *defined-system* to an empty hash-table 19:37:05 <_deepfire> and I find-system a system which has /nothing/ to do with mcclim 19:37:09 Or did the McCLIM asd file get /reloaded/ as a side effect of find-system... 19:37:14 <_deepfire> yes 19:37:34 <_deepfire> This is precisely the problem. 19:37:45 _deepfire: OK, I'll have a look at this. I have been putting it off because it's a PITA to install mcclim and cl-utilities. 19:38:07 <_deepfire> rpg, I'm not stopping looking into it, as well 19:38:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:12 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:01 _deepfire: When I get a chance, I'll run this through ACL and see if it happens there, too. If not, it's probably a problem in ASDF downstream, rather than ASDF qua asdf. 19:39:38 sctb [n=sctb@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:56 <_deepfire> rpg, note that it's extremely likely to be different on ACL 19:40:26 <_deepfire> Because the problem starts with that require of :sb-rotate-byte. 19:40:34 <_deepfire> Which is an SBCL contrib. 19:41:22 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:41:33 Axius [n=ade@92.82.91.119] has joined #lisp 19:42:05 <_deepfire> And SBCL loads its contribs through installing CONTRIB-SYSDEF-SEARCH into *system-definition-search-functions* 19:42:08 slotsirar [n=user@91.190.137.236] has joined #lisp 19:42:35 _deepfire: OK. Then maybe the problem is in CONTRIB-SYSDEF-SEARCH, which isn't a part of the ASDF code-base. 19:42:37 <_deepfire> Causing re-entry into ASDF through a customised path. 19:42:48 <_deepfire> rpg, I understand. 19:43:58 <_deepfire> You shouldn't bother with trying it on ACL, I guess. 19:44:24 <_deepfire> Probably this falls out of your interest area, I understand that. 19:44:33 _deepfire: I can think of two solutions: (1) push an "sbcl-asdf" into the asdf repo or (2) raise this error on sbcl-devel, where it's maintained. 19:45:18 _deepfire: Not outside my interest area, but probably outside my expertise area! Seriously, and more to the point, it's outside the area of asdf-devel, and falls in the purview of sbcl-devel. 19:45:30 <_deepfire> rpg, it's an arguably esoteric use, and I'm not sure the SBCL maintainers would be interested.. 19:46:02 <_deepfire> Why, oh why is ASDF so resistant to programmatic operation.. 19:46:46 <_deepfire> rpg, anyway, thanks for your attention! 19:47:18 *_deepfire* should go home 19:47:28 _deepfire: I get that, but there isn't anything the ASDF developers can do unless the "ownership" of the sbcl-specific code is transferred to asdf-devel from sbcl-devel... 19:48:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:13 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:49:36 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 19:50:46 <_deepfire> Ok, later on. 19:51:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:51:58 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:53:35 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-091-187.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:53:39 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 19:55:42 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.137.242] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:34 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 19:56:53 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:25 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:57:47 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-158-230.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:43 keiya_: okay, thanks. I'll need to upgrade without being able to reproduce, but will see what I can do. 20:00:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:42 dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:02:10 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-0-131.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:03:58 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:07 Is this chart http://www.flickr.com/photos/sellout42/3772201180/sizes/o/ right? It shows double-float, single-float etc. as classes; my understanding is they aren't classes in the standard. 20:05:18 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 20:06:54 LiamH: You dare question my accuracy?! 20:07:01 they are not necessarily classes, but they are allowed to be 20:07:56 OK, but the title just says "CL class hierarchy" 20:08:15 yeah, well, what do you expect from a sellout? 20:08:37 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:56 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:09:05 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:14 LiamH: Yeah, I think I just ran a simple hierarchy walker that output dot format, then I cleaned it up. 20:09:18 -!- arwed [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:18 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 20:09:24 So, whatever impl I used had those as classes. 20:09:36 the various array classes aren't necessarily classes, either, neither are fixnum / bignum 20:10:02 I should add more non-class types and indicate the difference, maybe using an oval instead of rectangle or something. 20:10:03 sellout: np, it's nice to have, but for portability reasons I'm trying to make a list of all numeric classes 20:10:15 sellout: that would be great 20:10:29 -!- rajeshsr [n=rajeshsr@59.92.79.54] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:01 So from Figure 4-8 and the chart, are these all the numeric classes required by the standard? (ratio integer rational float real complex number) 20:12:26 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-83-208.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:12:46 -!- UrchinStar [n=mjankovi@193.198.193.4] has quit ["[BX] We are BitchX of Borg. You will be assimilated. Using ircII is futile."] 20:13:44 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-117.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:15:15 hi 20:15:54 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-15-57.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:13 -!- housel` is now known as housel 20:16:56 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:15 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:17:47 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:30 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:18:44 nyef: ping 20:18:51 pong 20:20:47 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-48-133.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:21:07 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:21:55 nyef: yesterday I tried to compile clx and fixed a few issues 20:22:04 Oh? 20:22:12 nyef: patches are in http://repo.or.cz/w/gentoo-lisp-overlay.git/tree/HEAD:/dev-lisp/clx/files 20:22:58 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:23:04 http://repo.or.cz/w/gentoo-lisp-overlay.git/blob/HEAD:/dev-lisp/clx/files/gentoo-fix-obsolete-eval-when.patch is a bug in "trivial-features" 20:23:17 stassats: Did you just email a bug report to the slime mailing list on this issue? 20:23:58 the fix-asd patch splits demos and tests into their own systems, plus eliminates static files from the systems 20:24:23 Balooga: i emailed about an issue with similar symptoms, but i don't know anything about it 20:24:39 Krystof: a bug ? 20:24:44 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:09 and why are you eliminating static files from the systems? 20:25:27 How much of that asd patch is whitespace noise? 20:25:28 and why are you splitting tests and demos into their own systems? 20:26:04 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-176-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:26:33 yeah, a bug. "trivial-features" stuffs arbitrary keywords onto *features* 20:26:50 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [] 20:26:55 thereby breaking 20-year-old code 20:26:57 Krystof: because otherwise, either I'm forced to install useless files to /usr/share/common-lisp or have ASDF complain that they're not there 20:27:27 ... "useless"? 20:27:29 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:44 nyef: "README" is useless wrt. compilation 20:28:03 Compilation, maybe, but it serves a definite purpose. 20:28:14 Krystof: that code is broken. I'm using a little-endian CPU 20:28:26 nyef: yes. they're installed to /usr/share/doc 20:29:10 you're using a little-endian cpu, but that doesn't let you stuff :little-endian on *features* 20:29:21 go right ahead and put trivial-features:little-endian there 20:29:30 it's a reasonable thing to do 20:29:51 Honestly, if you're this upset, just bloody put an around on the compilation of depdefs to strip little-endian from the features list. 20:31:07 fe[nl]ix: on the static files case, I suggest install-and-symlink 20:31:22 Krystof: and I consider it a nuisance to always have to compile and keep in the image demos and examples that I won't ever use 20:31:31 and tests too 20:31:35 I have a teeny amount of sympathy on the features thing, but really not very much 20:32:16 yes, the clx code is lame. But it can't trivially be changed, because there's probably some platform out there that depends on it 20:32:40 how about stripping all occurrence of #+lispm, #+kcl & other obsolete systems ? 20:32:43 and it is still lame to just stomp on the global namespace with a "trivial" library. 20:32:51 not obsolete 20:32:58 And what's up with the fix-unused-vars patch? 20:33:21 Ah, gl and xrender only? 20:33:24 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:17 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 20:34:27 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:48 About the only one of these that I'm inclined to include is actually the dep-openmcl fixes. 20:34:50 nyef: I get warnings of unused variables and find them mildly annoying 20:35:10 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:27 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:35:55 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:36:16 not that I'm in charge, but I'd take a patch that split off all "modern" (say #+sbcl and #+openmcl) fragments into their own files, and conditionally compiled those instead of depfoo.lisp 20:36:23 sgray [n=user@hydra22.eecs.utk.edu] has joined #lisp 20:36:49 but arbitrarily changing code that's in bits of code that's only compiled because you've loaded some third-party library? That doesn't sound responsible to me 20:40:08 # 20:40:37 jsnell: I am close to having displacedp information propagatable through the type system 20:40:52 ooh, nice 20:41:15 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.91.119] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:41:38 Krystof: What do you think of the idea of including a notion of "stride" along with the dimensions for non-simple-vector arrays? 20:41:57 for slices? 20:42:00 Yeah. 20:42:03 dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:42:09 Or for having column-major-order arrays. 20:42:29 I've been contemplating an embedded apl, just because there are all those tasty char-codes 20:42:52 mind you, this type system code that I'm writing makes me want an embedded pattern-matcher 20:43:28 I was looking at an embedded constraint system, for the lowtag layout stuff. 20:45:17 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.54.70] has joined #lisp 20:47:34 p0a [n=user@athedsl-381886.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:47:48 Hello is there a set of functions available for table manipulation? (cell/row) 20:48:41 The thought also came for having the index calculation of a displaced array taken (mod (length underlying-vector)), so as to allow for ludicrously high strides effectively reversing the index and similar tricks. 20:48:53 p0a: How do you mean? 20:51:17 Going back to that broken eval-when, it makes some minor sense to break out the specific little-endian case and modernize that, as it's actually supposed to be a build-time customization feature. 20:51:47 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:51:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 20:52:00 Eko [n=eko@lawn-143-215-111-28.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 20:52:10 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:52:11 At the same time, it's still a WTF as far as the actual scenario described. 20:53:07 the thing that scares me is that there are still plenty of extant lisps that define :little-endian 20:53:14 just like there are some that define :lispm and :kcl 20:53:19 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:20 which is why I was too scared to touch all that code 20:53:40 I think better to make contemporary implementations bypass that historical stuff completely 20:53:49 That may be true as well. 20:54:05 wouldn't it be saner to strip it altogether and add it back only if somebody actually requests it ? 20:54:18 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:20 If we're not careful, we'll end up with an oldschool-eval-when feature. Or a no-oldschool-eval-when feature. 20:55:36 Actually, I think I'd like to make sure the non-asdf build system still works. 20:55:38 nyef: I wrote (mapcar-add (function list) (mapcar (lambda (x) (append x (funcall function x))) list)) 20:55:58 nyef: (mapcar-add #'1+ '((1) (2) (3)) => ((1 2) (2 3) (3 4)) 20:56:20 p0a: I'm frightened already. 20:56:43 why is that 20:57:15 Attempting to wrap my mind around the forces that would suggest creating such a thing. 20:59:58 Do I rightly remember hearing that there are some unspecified bugs in the xrender code? 21:00:02 nyef: I'm writing a function that collects and presents statistics. I modify a table which then is conveniently printed with FORMAT and ~{~} 21:00:28 p0a: Ah, okay. 21:00:30 FORMAT abuse. 21:01:15 that's great help 21:01:41 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:02:54 I'm really not sure how to help you with that. 21:02:56 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:05 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:05:09 p0a: So you're trying to make a bunch of rows with this mapcar-add thing? 21:06:02 p0a: With all due respect, that mapcar-add seems ferociously unreadable.... 21:07:21 what is the simplest parser generator for CL? 21:09:00 -!- dv___ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Client Quit] 21:09:45 konr: probably a toss-up between hand rolling it with cl-ppcre and META. 21:09:48 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 21:09:50 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:10:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:24 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:11:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:03 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:12:08 (sb-kernel:specifier-type '(and array (satisfies array-displacement))) 21:12:08 # 21:12:15 5. COMPLEXP: T 21:12:15 6. DISPLACEDP: T 21:12:27 "it builds, ship it" 21:12:58 jsnell: it might be money-at-mouth-putting time 21:13:12 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-6-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:04 sellout: 1.5k to go! 21:14:31 gigamonkey: And you've got hours left, right? 21:15:01 nyef: gigamonkey's done. He's just cheering me on. 21:15:09 Ah, okay. 21:15:14 Still, hours left, right? 21:15:20 it's already December here 21:15:23 Yeah, about 8. 21:15:43 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:50 you can write on a train moving to the west 21:16:24 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@mue-88-130-108-170.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:19 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:20:29 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7572a2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:57 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7572a2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:20 gigamonkey: 982 left. 21:23:03 "lorem ipsum" 21:24:31 Krystof: did you actually study Latin? 21:24:44 sellout: cool. 21:24:58 You can do that with your eyes shut! 21:25:15 gigamonkey: I can, but only on Dvorak. 21:25:26 Yay, dvorak! 21:25:27 Heh. Me too. 21:25:37 Is your main character still named Alan, too. 21:25:43 francogrex [n=user@178.116-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:25:46 Yeppers. 21:25:49 I hope we didn't write the same novel. 21:25:58 Krystof: In a non-English-speaking country like Sweden, we were too busy learning English. 21:26:18 gigamonkey: I hope, for your sake, that you didn't waste your time writing the drivel I did ;) 21:26:21 I thought I learned English by watching TV? 21:26:31 Hang on, beach, you're from Sweden? 21:26:34 (learnt? heh. obviously not.) 21:26:34 Krystof: oops. and I'm taking the rest of the year off starting a couple of weeks from now, so at least I can't even claim I'm too busy ;-) 21:26:40 gigamonkey: Yes. 21:27:27 tic: I learned spoken English and written Danish simultaneously, because Swedish and Danish TV bought American shows together, and the Danes got them first. 21:27:39 beach, TV3? 21:27:49 there are non-english speaking countries teaching latin and english in some of their schools 21:27:51 Ah, just Danish TV. 21:27:56 tic: Nope, didn't exist at the time. 21:27:58 beach: I did, for five years 21:27:59 But you're in France now? 21:28:00 beach, realized that. 21:28:14 gigamonkey: Yes, for the past 22 years in fact. 21:28:33 I remember TV3 airing programs with Danish subtitles. 21:28:36 gigamonkey: [barring 1 year in Austin and 1 year in Auckland] 21:28:47 bah, sbcl, stop telling me about fatal ERRORs and just compile what I meant 21:29:02 gigamonkey: Before that, in Baltimore for 5 years, and before that in Sweden. 21:29:13 -!- sgray [n=user@hydra22.eecs.utk.edu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:29:37 got a wife and kids there? 21:29:40 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 21:29:45 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:29:53 tic: who are you talking to? 21:30:03 beach, ./~ got a wife and kids in Baltimore Jack ./~ 21:30:03 beach: bit of a world tour :) 21:30:06 gigamonkey: Europe is a strange and wonderful place these days. 21:30:09 the fun thing about making mistakes is discovering weird things that happen while building sbcl itself 21:30:18 12: (SB!KERNEL::NEGATION-COMPLEX-INTERSECTION2-TYPE-METHOD # #) 21:30:22 Krystof, what are you hacking on? *curious* 21:30:29 Jabberwockey [n=jens@mue-88-130-116-101.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #lisp 21:30:40 why on earth are we trying to compute (and vector (not (satisfies legal-fun-name-p)))? 21:30:41 rsynnott: Part of the job. I love it. 21:30:44 Krystof: wtf? 21:31:08 Balooga: i couldn't reproduce on linux 21:31:23 I'm possibly a bit boring; I'm quite happy to stay put :) 21:31:30 there was another comedy moment earlier, when there was an # lurking around 21:31:42 rsynnott: We're all different. 21:31:45 had the opportunity to work in Vancouver for six months with my last job, but passed on it; in ways I regret this 21:32:14 rsynnott: Vancouver is the best place I've ever lived. 21:32:25 tic: extending array types so that they can track explicitly whether the array is displaced or not (or unknown) 21:32:40 jsnell said that the lack of that was the only reason that vector-push-extend sucked 21:32:40 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-091-187.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:32:43 sellout: Have you ever lived in the south-west of France? 21:33:01 beach: No, it's on the list, though ;) 21:33:24 sellout: You can have our guest room until you find a place :) 21:34:21 jsnell: to answer my own question, probably the type declaration for %debug-name in def!struct functional (src/compiler/node.lisp) 21:34:58 I am not trying to push this place; it's just been *so* amazing to me (having lived in 4 different countries), that I must share that experience. 21:35:36 *nyef* tries an x86-64 sbcl build with the lowtags arranged such that the only even lowtags are fixnums. (Hey, can we get an extra couple of fixnum bits this way?) 21:36:23 beach: I'm adding you to my Diana-finally-finished-her-PhD world tour, which should start in about a year. 21:36:54 GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-54-2-128.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:11 sellout: I'll be here (except for 6 months in T.P HCM starting December 2010). 21:37:17 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-081-072.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:37:25 sellout: But my wife will be here. 21:37:55 Tordek [n=tordek@host94.190-137-253.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:38:06 Hrmm, well our tour might start around March 2011. But I'll touch base once we're actually making plans. 21:38:32 sellout: Sure! I am sure our guest room will be available. 21:38:55 nyef: CMUCL seemingly managed to do that. I'm afraid of some implicit invariant ;) 21:38:57 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.213.43] has joined #lisp 21:39:17 pkhuong: I'm running a test now, though there are a number of rather explicit invariants listed with the lowtags. 21:39:22 (sb-kernel:specifier-type '(and array (not (satisfies array-displacement)))) 21:39:31 # 21:39:39 5. COMPLEXP: :MAYBE 21:39:39 6. DISPLACEDP: NIL 21:39:51 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 21:40:05 -!- francogrex [n=user@178.116-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:01 Am I confused or shouldn't the clocks on this page http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/dateline.htm not have "GMT" after them? 21:41:34 gigamonkey: Heh, that's awesome. 21:43:26 So, it turns out that if you all OTHER-IMMEDIATE-FOO-LOWTAGs as identical, the 64-bit lowtags can be converted to the 32-bit lowtags by removing those for which the middle two bits are different (that is, tags 2-5 and 10-13) and shifting the top bit down by one. 21:43:56 And I was hoping to be able to use that fact to make the lowtag specification a bit more concise, but it didn't really work out. 21:45:26 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 21:45:26 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:45:42 quodlibetor [n=user@146.95.21.86] has joined #lisp 21:46:24 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 21:47:11 gigamonkey: That is hilarious. And they are a little confused about UTC and GMT. 21:47:22 So the plan for next year's NaNoWriMo is start in Tonga. Write for 24 hours and then hop over to Somoa and write for 30 more days. First to start, last to finish. 21:49:25 NaNoWriMo sounds exhausting enough as it is. 21:49:48 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:51:27 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:33 nyef: what should I do instead? 21:51:53 rpg: * sorry taht message was for you 21:52:02 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229080070.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:52:50 auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable025.59-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:53:03 auclairb_ [n=auclairb@modemcable025.59-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:53:31 jsnell: http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl.git;a=summary 21:53:55 (repository is at http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/git/sbcl.git if I have done configuration right) 21:53:58 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:55:28 pkhuong gets to play along too, because iirc he said similar things 21:57:55 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-143-215-111-28.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:58:35 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 21:59:49 p0a: I would just suggest something that makes it more clear what you want this function for. 22:00:05 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:10 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:16 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 22:00:33 -!- keiya_ [n=keiya@pool-71-98-4-118.mdsnwi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:01:05 Ah, there we go! make-target-2 running with my new tag scheme. 22:01:26 p0a: you are doing two things: making an sexpression that encodes some info and then using format to present it (in some way) to a formatting tool. Right? 22:02:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:02:59 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:03:23 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633779.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:04:22 arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.75.250] has joined #lisp 22:05:08 hi 22:06:42 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:06:49 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable025.59-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:07:17 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:55 davazp [n=user@16.Red-83-37-232.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:12 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-6-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:12 rpg: right. I have to leave now though 22:09:24 I'll probably ask this question again tomorrow 22:09:26 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-381886.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 22:10:00 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:07 drdo [n=drdo@214.130.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:11:02 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 22:15:41 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [] 22:16:04 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:55 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:19:02 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 22:20:30 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:23:38 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:24:04 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.213.43] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:25:53 -!- pfoetchen [n=jo@dslb-092-075-114-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:26:33 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:36 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357050.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:27:44 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-192-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:01 Woohoo! sellout. Under 500. 22:28:08 phawk [i=81076a62@gateway/web/freenode/x-jxysrkqvatllxvym] has joined #lisp 22:28:14 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:28:58 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:29:59 good night 22:30:27 does anyone know where I can read about making a lisp program parse the following bnf grammar --> -> = -> + | - | -> / | * | -> A | B | C | D <-- it should return "Correct!" if the syntax is correct and "Incorrect" if the syntax is bad for example, (parse '(A = B + C)) should return "Correct!" 22:30:48 Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-085-233.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:31:25 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06c908.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["eagerly I wished the morrow, vainly I had sought to borrow from my books surcease of sorrow"] 22:31:59 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:32:00 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:32:06 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:22 archangelpetro [n=petro@cpc2-oxfd19-2-0-cust1010.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:27 hola 22:35:37 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-081-072.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:53 phawk: read about the Meta parser generator. 22:37:01 Hrm... Looks like adding another six fixnum lowtags would be a pain. :-/ 22:37:09 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@146.95.21.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:15 gigamonkey, how do you use the meta parser generator? 22:37:48 phawk: well, you'll need to write one. By the time you're done with that, you'll know how to use it. ;-) 22:38:05 The paper describes a technique. Actually it may have code too though it goes a bit readmacro happy for my taste. 22:38:16 gigamonkey, write a what? grammar definition? 22:38:33 No, a generator. The paper describes a technique for generating parsers. 22:38:47 There are also existing parser generators out there. 22:39:00 gigamonkey: what book/paper is the meta parser generator in? 22:39:01 voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #lisp 22:39:23 It's one of henry baker's papers. 22:39:30 this paper? http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/Prag-Parse.html 22:39:34 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-161-25.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:35 That's the one. 22:39:45 alrighty than! 22:39:57 Yeah. That one. 22:40:08 hmm..nice, I'm going to have to read this as well 22:40:34 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:42:38 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-54-2-128.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:44:10 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-035-147.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:50 ... What? Umm... Could someone check src/code/room.lisp, the next form after (defvar *meta-room-info* ...), where it seems to be assuming that there are always three lowtag bits, and confirm that that's what it's doing? 22:46:02 -!- acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has quit ["leaving"] 22:47:12 kmc_ [n=keegan@206-71-236-70.c3-0.nyw-ubr1.nyr-nyw.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:11 -!- phawk [i=81076a62@gateway/web/freenode/x-jxysrkqvatllxvym] has quit ["Page closed"] 22:48:34 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:48:52 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.54.70] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:20 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.54.70] has joined #lisp 22:50:50 -!- kmc_ [n=keegan@206-71-236-70.c3-0.nyw-ubr1.nyr-nyw.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:52:00 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:52:17 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-2-227.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:01 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:54:03 -!- budda_ [n=budda@p57A6414A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:54:11 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7572a2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:46 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 22:55:13 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:18 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:57:18 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357050.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:13 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:28 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:59:50 ericjames [n=ericjeld@24.144.136.246] has joined #lisp 22:59:55 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 23:01:16 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:02:25 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-77-201.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 23:02:46 -!- auclairb_ [n=auclairb@modemcable025.59-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:06:12 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:10 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:11:21 -!- kmc [n=keegan@206-71-236-70.c3-0.nyw-ubr1.nyr-nyw.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:11:46 kmc_ [n=keegan@206-71-236-70.c3-0.nyw-ubr1.nyr-nyw.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:42 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:13:13 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 23:15:01 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:52 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:13 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@24.144.136.246] has quit [] 23:25:59 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-77-201.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:27:05 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:28:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 23:29:20 Okay, time to see if a 63-bit fixnum build blows up the first time I try it... 23:29:53 63-bit fixnums? how? 23:30:00 Magic! 23:30:18 Seriously, we were using six tags for -padding-. 23:30:35 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.54.70] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:03 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.54.70] has joined #lisp 23:31:07 So I added pad0-lowtag through pad5-lowtag to a bunch of places, tweaked the fixnum-detection logic in the runtime, and figured there was a chance it'd work. 23:31:29 cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 23:31:40 would be really nice if it will work 23:31:50 Oops. Build just died. 23:32:34 *nyef* tries again, sans stupid mistake. 23:34:12 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 23:34:22 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:24 nyef: How many bits were fixnums before? 23:34:34 61. 23:34:41 On 64-bit platforms. 23:34:45 does that mean 31-bit fixnums on x86-32, too? 23:34:46 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 23:34:50 Come on, with these two-bit changes! 23:34:53 foom: No, not enough lowtags for that. 23:34:56 gigamonkey: Heh! 23:35:12 foom: We need four lowtags for pointers alone. 23:35:42 Two more bits ... Now I just need to convince my C++ buddies to use 63-bit hash codes, instead of 64-bit ones. 23:36:08 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:17 -!- Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-085-233.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:48 Ah, external symbols only. Damn. 23:36:53 Guest48442: you can have an array specialized to 64-bit integers 23:37:33 Yes, and declarations like (unsigned-byte 64) also work well inside functions. 23:37:41 nyef: so, now there's 4 tags other than fixnum available instead of 7? 23:37:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-117.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:38:03 nik0z [n=Nik0z@93-34-6-74.ip47.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 23:38:30 -!- nik0z [n=Nik0z@93-34-6-74.ip47.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 23:39:11 foom: We have four pointer tags, (/ n-word-bytes 2) other-immediate tags, and two fixnum tags right now. 23:39:16 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 23:39:31 On 32-bit platforms, that's 8 tags, and on 64-bit platforms that's 10 tags. 23:39:34 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:56 So, I'm trying to use the six spare tags on 64-bit systems as more fixnum tags. 23:40:50 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:42:08 ah, right: on 32-bit platforms, there's 29 bits of pointer, 3 bits of tag, and 8-byte alignment, and on 64-bit ones, 60 bits of pointer and 4 bits of tag, and 16-byte alignment. 23:42:38 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:02 The primary benefit is that integers with 62 and 63 bits will be more efficient? 23:44:13 More bits are always better. :) 23:45:10 "You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too many bits." 23:45:30 (this is gonna be a minor PITA for my app since it depends on low-level details of the implementation like there being 61 bits in a fixnum, but oh well) 23:45:44 Anything in the name of progress. :) 23:46:18 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 23:46:39 Okay, it's now blown up while compiling something that uses move-from-unsigned. 23:47:31 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:47:53 and besides, I'm accustomed to pain now, having recently tracked down an incredibly evil kernel bug. :) 23:48:44 Evil kernel bug? 23:48:59 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/920679 23:49:29 I think the last evil kernel bug I helped track down was on a MIPS interrupt handler that occasionally enabled interrupts that were supposed to be disabled. 23:49:30 I am trying to use elephant for the first time with bdb and upon creation of the database, either using my test program or the hunchentoot-blog test program, i am getting sb-sys:memory-fault-error with db-dbd::db-env-create calling foreign function. Any ideas where to look? 23:49:58 file corruption that doesn't show up until the cache is flushed to disk 23:50:18 (100% reproducible, once I figured out what was happening, at least) 23:50:40 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:50:48 foom: Ouch. 23:52:01 sellout: Woot! 23:52:15 gigamonkey: :D 23:52:16 Congratulations! 23:52:26 gigamonkey: Thanks, you were a big help. 23:52:43 Feels good when that big "YOU WON" monolith shows up, no? :-) 23:52:51 Glad I could be of assistance. 23:52:55 Yeah, seriously. 23:53:17 I actually think you did me a huge service a week or two ago when you said something about how you admired my steady progress. 23:53:38 That made me think, "I'm the kind of guy who makes steady progress." Which became self-fulfilling. 23:54:02 So, thank you. 23:54:04 Oh, cool. Self-image therapy. 23:54:39 Hey, whatever works. 23:54:50 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:54:58 Definately. 23:55:18 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:14 It was an amazing experience. Very glad November is over, though. Other bits of my life to catch up on. 23:57:30 Yeah. Though I sort of can't wait to read what I wrote and see if I can make it not suck. 23:57:48 foom: couldn't reproduce with jfs and 2.6.31.1 23:57:49 My wife read it and actually seemed to like it. 23:58:17 Going to do it again in 2010? 23:59:14 are there any languages with something similar to conditions? 23:59:23 ruediger: few, if any. 23:59:39 i always wonder that nobody seems to copy them 23:59:47 Allegedly Cedar/Mesa had something like them but I've never been able to find anything about them. 23:59:49 stassats: do you have ext3 fs on that box too, and does it reproduce on that? 23:59:52 i just heard that even clojure has nothing similar