00:00:37 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:23 has anybody thought about how to support these things in lisp? I mean, on the one hand you have the BLAS implementations etc for CUDA which should work for some value of work with things like matlisp/lisplab/etc, and on the other hand, the "C for CUDA" dialect is basically "Fortran semantics for C" 00:02:23 -!- ziga`` [n=user@BSN-176-215-6.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:35 ziga`` [n=user@BSN-176-215-6.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:41 -!- ziga`` [n=user@BSN-176-215-6.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-154.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:04:35 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 00:04:54 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-224-205.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:09:08 What's frightening is that there are chances beach will be much more successful in convincing vn software industry than fr... 00:11:01 -!- Ogedei` [n=user@e178219236.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:26 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 00:11:33 get Inria to port OpenMusic to McCLIM 00:15:10 beach: eeek, 30 weeks of crappiness doesn't sound enticing 00:16:05 is there a built in function to check wether a string consists of [0-9] (numerical) only? 00:16:19 wakeup^: EVERY 00:16:25 redblue [i=star@ppp057.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:16:30 wakeup^: (every #'digit-char-p string) for instance 00:16:46 cool 00:18:04 how do you lispers avoid (return bla)'s again? I kind of forgot that while writing in C, but I remember that (return) wasnt so popular round here :> 00:18:27 wakeup^: in many constructs, the last thing in the form is the return value 00:18:43 wakeup^: RETURN isn't bad when used appropriately. it's not a good idea to use it superfluously. 00:19:50 hmm kay 00:20:05 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 00:20:17 wakeup^: read some lisp code to get an idea of it 00:20:58 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:22:08 brentb: I had done some research into OpenCL support in CL 00:22:38 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 00:22:55 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:23:00 I periodically get irritated writing code of the form (let ((foo (create-foo))) (do-stuff-to foo) foo), though, and am almost barely tempted to use a superfluous return (except it'd be a return-from, so I'll pass on that) 00:23:47 hefner: specify that do-stuff-to returns the argument, then you can just write (do-stuff-to (create-foo)) 00:23:53 hefner: (dolist (foo (list (create-foo)) foo) do-stuff-to-foo)! 00:24:23 hohoho 00:24:27 *Xach* wonders how badly that fails 00:24:50 foodoo 00:25:01 *lispm* has a lisp 00:25:28 (let ((foo (create-foo))) (prog1 foo (do-stuff-to foo)))? 00:25:34 pjb: I could, except it isn't always clear then what the function returns, plus sometimes the code in the middle is a setf or a call to a CL function 00:26:13 (alet (create-foo) (do-stuff-to it)) 00:26:25 pjb, you mean aprog1 00:26:32 LET1 returns the value of the first form in the body 00:26:49 Adlai: No, I mean anaphoric let. 00:26:56 Which would return it automatically. 00:27:19 if you're going to use a macro, you can do better than that 00:27:20 why should alet return the bound value? I'd expect alet to behave like let 00:27:50 Adlai: why not? Notice that it can be only one variable, so there's only one thing to be returned... 00:28:06 I use prog1 all over the place, but never mentally filed it as an option in this situation 00:28:14 Or call it something else if you prefer alet to behave more like let. 00:29:35 (defmacro binding-prog1 ((var initform) &body body) `(let ((,var ,initform)) ,@body ,var)) ? 00:30:11 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:49 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:51 last time I went down that road I think I called it 'initializing', and let it return multiple values (one for each binding) 00:31:20 somewhere in the garbage heap of handy macros I can live without 00:34:31 Yes, that's a problem. Collecting them in a library might not be useful. 00:34:40 ... Joy. I'm beginning to suspect that I want a multiresolution spectral analysis. 00:34:59 what are you working on, nyef? 00:35:26 There's more frequency components to work with on the 512-sample window, but there's better temporal resolution on the 128-sample window. 00:35:36 brentb: Speech recognition. 00:36:09 hey does clbuild work in msys at all? I'm not booted into windows right now so I'm just asking idly. 00:36:41 Unfortunately, my visualization tools are so bad that I'm resorting to looking at spectrograms in the gimp so that I can pick up frame numbers and relate them back to the timing information I have for phonemes in the wave files I have. 00:36:54 nyef: what visualisation tools? 00:37:16 p_l: Right now? I dump the spectrograms to pgm and open in the gimp. 00:37:28 nyef: before that? 00:37:28 nyef: doesn't that suck? I had the same problem trying to identify musical pitches, because you need a *huge* window to get enough frequency resolution to distinguish the lower notes. 00:38:08 p_l: Well, I started with ploticus, but that doesn't seem to want to do spectrograms easily. 00:38:22 nyef: maybe OpenDX might be useful to you, although it wasn't updated too much lately... OTOH, it's a full-blown 3D visualization package 00:38:58 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177159060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:38:59 p_l: Actually, my current plan is to muddle through for a bit longer, then possibly do something about custom visualization tools for myself. 00:39:12 nyef: warning, you might want to install openmotif for OpenDX 00:40:07 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:45 also, it hasn't seen much development lately, and I'm not sure how much was done after IBM released it as OpenSource in 1998 instead of requiring several thousand $ per license 00:42:21 I'd recommend homebrewing a visualization tool based on mcclim, except I'm sure it means hearing more about how you can't stand mcclim. Plus some CLX weirdness with big images can get annoying. 00:42:49 Actually, I'm considering homebrewing my own take on CLIM. 00:43:06 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-68-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:10 mcclim, for all its faults, really excels in the quick and ugly one-off application niche, at least once you've spent six months or so hacking on the internals 00:43:25 lispm [n=joswig@e177159060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:43:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:44:59 I liked some of the stuff I did in McCLIM, but... 00:45:48 nyef: take a look at the current descendant of spectrapro---a client of mine had a copy about five or so years ago 00:46:08 warning: Lisp porn 00:46:24 on click if 18 or over 00:46:37 MCLIDE 00:46:38 http://mclide.in-progress.com/tour 00:46:48 don't miss the icon ;-) 00:46:50 ... Spectra Pro? Spy software? 00:46:52 (not lisp porn, worse, it's windows) http://www.telebyte.com/pioneer/Downloads.htm 00:47:16 oh, that sexy dock. 00:48:00 dressed in scottish clothes! 00:48:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-163.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:48:13 and badly upsampled by the browser 00:48:37 lispm: That actually looks almost sweet. 00:50:07 not sure why I would prefer that over LispWorks, though 00:51:09 hefner: and if you don't want to spend six months on the internals, there's always tk. I was just looking at ltk today, which looks like about the only non-tcl interface to tk that captures the tcl+tk spirit. 00:52:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:52:34 I fear all my principled objections to tk will ring hollow in the face of reality 00:52:42 brentb: in what does that spirit consist ? 00:53:53 hah 00:54:14 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:05 in that you should be able to type something roughly equivalent to "button .b -text "hello" -command {puts "hello"}" to define a button 00:55:09 as opposed to 00:55:46 mydumblanguage-initialize-tcl-interface(option1, option2, option3); 00:56:00 mydumblanguage-open-wish(); 00:56:34 brentb, I think you meant MyDumbLanguage#initTclInterface(option1, option2, option3){}; 00:57:30 if (mydumblanguage-send-wish-command("button .b -text "hello" -command {puts "hello"}") == WISH_ERROR) {handle-wish-error(); etc}; 00:57:31 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:20 *nyef* refrains from any "wish upon a star" jokes. 00:59:08 resemblance to any actual languages is completely coincidental, of course 01:00:14 but even python's tk interface is kind of like that, and I still think I like python 01:01:42 here's a new-to-me twist on the silly initialization macro: (defmacro create (&body body) `(let ($) (macrolet ((returning (expr) `(setf $ ,expr))) ,@body $))) 01:01:57 for instance, (create (read-sequence (returning (make-string (file-length stream))) stream)) 01:02:01 python is not awful for system integration/os sorts of tasks. 01:02:11 I couldn't think of an example using the $ variable in subsequent forms =( 01:02:13 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:04:18 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:28 anyway, of the things that Paul Graham is right about, the notion that keystrokes matter is one that is dear to my heart 01:06:23 If keystrokes matter, why not use a speech recognition system instead of a keyboard? Or a handwriting recognizer? 01:06:24 and for the things you can do in tcl+tk, tcl+tk is about the most concise way to express them and stay legible later 01:07:00 donm [n=user@ip98-169-243-89.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:38 visual cues matter too, which is why non-lispers complain about the parentheses and lack of syntax 01:07:59 That's funny. Lispers complain about the lack of parenthesis and all the damned syntax 01:08:07 rvirding [n=chatzill@h92n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:09:14 well you could have nyef's speech recognition with some form of spatial recognition, point at the code and ask to change it 01:09:15 hefner: that's a neat idea 01:09:50 no keystrokes at all 01:10:09 Guthur: Oh, no, you tie it into a dialogue system so that you don't have to point. 01:10:35 *Fade* wonders who is behind mclide 01:10:47 Clozure, presumably. 01:11:06 nyef: sometimes pointing is the most efficient 01:11:15 but it will be hard to infer the semantics of all your verbal commands, a physical modality is usually quite useful 01:12:01 indeed there is the philosophical idea that language is limited by the perception of the world, or something like that 01:12:18 little me see if i can get the guy, 01:12:34 or is it the other way around, Guthur? such is the nature of philosophical ideas. 01:12:56 brentb: Linguistic determinism? Really? 01:13:15 ya it the final assertion by this guy was that all philosophy was pointless 01:13:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein 01:14:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractatus_Logico-Philosophicus the end of proposition 6.* is great 01:14:49 rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-5-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:06 hefner: what is a principled objection to tk? 01:16:30 brentb: it smells like a wet dog 01:17:15 (sorry to disappoint!) 01:17:19 Ah, yes. Very principled. 01:18:17 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:19:08 well, I'd make the practical objection that as far as I know nobody has written a really big application that uses tk. non-trivial, sure. but not really big. maybe magic? I dunno. 01:19:18 wittgenstein was an interesting guy 01:20:00 brentb: Scopus was an old CRM system that used tcl/tk for the UI, if memory serves. 01:20:04 brentb: I've seen large bespoke apps using tk via python, once upon a time. 01:20:07 *nyef* narrowly avoided getting sucked into that. 01:20:10 let me amend that: a really big application that uses tk exclusively for its GUI 01:20:46 tk is rather like the edsel of widget libs 01:20:47 I used a VDHL EDA app with a Tk UI some years ago and didn't mind it at all, but it wasn't terribly big 01:21:31 brentb: how 'bout BRL-CAD's mged? 01:22:10 I haven't really used that, Ralith. Is it any good? 01:22:20 depends 01:22:33 if you like emacs, you'll probably be able to pick up mged 01:22:59 kpreid: inspired by my hairy partial application macro, where you could put a marker inside an expression such that there was still a variable in that position of the output lambda list, but the applied function received the result of the expression with the argument substituted for the marker (bad explanation) 01:23:06 I like emacs just fine but I don't know if I'd want to use it for solid modeling. 01:23:24 well, mged's perfectly capable 01:23:29 it's just got an arcane UI. 01:23:38 *that* I thought was cool, except for the badness of assigning magic semantics to random symbols, plus being too lazy to use a codewalker 01:23:40 which is largely keyboard-oriented. 01:23:53 I have seen some CAD/CAM/CAE and EDA systems with Tk, but I don't recall specifics 01:24:21 i.e. something you would not use as a reference/touchstone if you were going to do something similar. 01:24:48 hefner: you mean it was like (papp somefunc foo _ bar _ baz)? 01:25:58 jawhite_ [n=jawhite@110.21.212.58] has joined #lisp 01:27:13 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-28-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:27:23 kpreid: not exactly, more like (papp print (* _ 100) stream), which would give you a one argument function that multiplied its argument by 100 and printed it to the stream 01:27:46 say, Ralith, is there a reasonable path from BRL-CAD to a mesh to solving equations on that mesh with FEMLISP? Because that would be cool, and I might even have uses for it. 01:27:54 -!- Guest76009 is now known as pragma_ 01:27:59 maybe tricks like that are commonplace, I haven't seen anyone else's approach 01:28:29 hefner: isn't that the standard "parameter-list-less lambda"? 01:28:39 brentb: what kind of mesh? BRL-CAD probably has the largest suite of import/export tools available. 01:28:47 jawhite__ [n=jawhite@110.21.3.161] has joined #lisp 01:30:26 kpreid: hmm. never thought about it that way, and I'm sure there's some detail in the implementation by which I could nitpick and say no, but that example certainly is. 01:30:45 mesh generation is a different beast, ralith. If it has lots of export tools, you can probably get it into a format that a mesher can use though. And I haven't figured out how to get something besides a cube or a rectangle into FEMLISP yet myself. 01:30:49 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA3F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:28 brentb: well, there's an export to STL, which I imagine involves generating a mesh somwhere along the way :P 01:31:37 I'm at the "I got the demos to run" stage with FEMLISP, and I'm not even sure I got all of them to run. 01:31:45 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:31:47 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 01:32:03 mind, it's not the most reliable/clean mesher 01:32:13 there's some boundary-representation work that's WIP that will improve that a lot 01:33:57 jawhite___ [n=jawhite@110.20.151.208] has joined #lisp 01:34:02 do people's parameterless lambda list hacks generally have a provision for applying &rest args? 01:34:19 that could be interesting, Ralith 01:35:38 iirc BRL-CAD should have export to DXF, and you probably can't find a more easily importable format (regarding availability of tools) than DXF... well, maybe old .3ds meshes... 01:35:57 the format that the FEA jocks I know like is IGES 01:36:59 don't ask me what makes it so special for their workflow 01:38:20 that's like explaining to someone who only ever used normal raster graphic tools (Photoshop, GIMP etc.) what the hell is FITS, I guess 01:39:06 jawhite____ [n=jawhite@110.20.153.180] has joined #lisp 01:39:26 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 01:40:55 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-5-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:42:21 p_l: yeah, that's probably an apt analogy 01:43:18 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:24 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-111.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:59 -!- NNshag [i=user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-144-32.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:44:06 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-144-32.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:14 jawhite_____ [n=jawhite@110.21.16.220] has joined #lisp 01:45:29 -!- jawhite_____ [n=jawhite@110.21.16.220] has quit [Client Quit] 01:45:49 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.190.14] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:49:37 has FITS pretty much taken over scientific image data? when I last did anything with image processing, HDF4 was a serious contender and the obvious choice, because nice commercial tools actually used it. 01:52:01 -!- jawhite_ [n=jawhite@110.21.212.58] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:58 satiricon [n=david@190.51.99.134] has joined #lisp 01:54:44 -!- jawhite____ [n=jawhite@110.20.153.180] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:56:28 -!- jawhite__ [n=jawhite@110.21.3.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:00 -!- OmniMancer1 is now known as Omnimancer 01:57:07 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:57:24 -!- Omnimancer is now known as OmniMancer 01:57:51 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.220.248] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:59:36 rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-5-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:15 -!- jawhite___ [n=jawhite@110.20.151.208] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:53 jawhite_ [n=jawhite@203-158-55-225.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:07:09 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:50 -!- brentb [n=buescher@71.181.168.227] has quit ["Started wasting time elsewhere"] 02:09:04 -!- pjb [n=t@126.Red-88-30-126.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:22 -!- satiricon [n=david@190.51.99.134] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:09:51 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C859.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:10:11 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-249.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:11:20 minion: memo for brentb: HDF5 seems to be popular for scientific data, however FITS rules in Astronomy world 02:11:20 Remembered. I'll tell brentb when he/she/it next speaks. 02:11:40 minion: chant 02:11:40 MORE EASILY 02:16:09 -!- jawhite_ [n=jawhite@203-158-55-225.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi"] 02:19:27 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h92n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:19:34 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-144-32.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:10 necroforest [n=jarred@pool-173-79-12-74.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:31 -!- metawilm` [n=user@e179152212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:52 slackjaw [n=slackjaw@203-158-55-225.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:26:17 jawhite_ [n=jawhite@203-158-55-225.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:26:25 -!- donm [n=user@ip98-169-243-89.dc.dc.cox.net] has left #lisp 02:26:28 konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 02:26:29 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:37 -!- jawhite_ [n=jawhite@203-158-55-225.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 02:30:01 -!- slackjaw [n=slackjaw@203-158-55-225.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 02:31:49 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:34:16 -!- arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.42.112] has quit [] 02:35:42 slackjaw [n=slackjaw@203-158-55-225.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:41:58 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:47:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:53:21 hi how to use win32 api in ccl? 02:53:59 simple windows executable and source will gr8 02:54:11 dear god why? 02:54:30 Ralith: just self learning 02:54:32 heh 02:54:43 crink: why are you "just self learning" such a horrible thing 02:54:47 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 02:54:58 Such a horrible thing as common lisp, or as the win32 api? 02:55:06 what do you think :P 02:55:07 (Or such a horrible thing as ccl?) 02:55:22 oh comeon.. 02:55:28 really, it goes without saying 02:55:37 Well, the obvious scenario actually involves prior knowledge of the win32 api... 02:55:52 nyef: yes 02:56:05 davazp [n=user@17.Red-79-146-198.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:08 doesn't make it any less horrible 02:56:09 crink: I believe that ccl has its interface database already set up for win32, so the simple examples in their manual might be a good start. 02:56:26 Ralith: But it does invalidate your shocked and horrified question. 02:56:28 nyef: thx 02:56:30 crink: about all I can point you at is the example in ccl:examples;mswin.lisp 02:56:35 nyef: how do you invalidate "why?" 02:56:44 rme: thx 02:56:45 also, why must people write unportable code ;_; 02:57:09 Ralith: It invalidates the whole "just self learning" of the API, as the learning isn't being done on the API so much as CCLs FFI. 02:57:40 nyef: he's not learning the FFI if he's using CCL-supplied bindings :P 02:57:51 That -is- the CCL FFI. 02:58:08 Because unportable code is, quite often, easier. And that's not even covering the whole "in order to write a portability layer" angle. 02:58:08 bindings aren't an FFI 02:58:11 they *use* an FFI. 02:58:18 Oh, for the... 02:58:25 Final Fantasy 1. 02:58:33 was there such a thing? 02:58:35 -!- fatalnix1995_ is now known as fatalnix1995 02:58:39 I've never heard of any before 3. 02:58:46 yes. 02:58:48 it was for NES 02:58:50 fatalnix1995_: Beat the GBA version a couple days ago. They managed to completely screw the game balance. 02:59:07 really? so it was different from the NES version? 02:59:08 Any time I got to a boss I'd start gearing up for a real fight, and the boss would die before I was ready. 02:59:25 that's... upsetting 02:59:29 Yeah, they used general MP instead of set maximum quotas per spell level. 02:59:54 So you could just keep casting level two spells all you wanted and not have to worry about running out. 03:00:21 It was obscene, especially after I found out that the to-damage buff stacked essentially without limit. 03:00:50 I had a fighter attack, a ninja and black wizard casting temper, and the white wizard healing. 03:01:30 that's rediculous 03:01:37 Typically able to heal all damage done within a round or so, and the fighter tended to do an average of an extra 400 or so points of damage every bloody turn. 03:01:57 On top of the damage he dealt the turn before. 03:02:03 lol 03:02:23 I do have a game from squaresoft for the NES but it isnt FF 03:02:32 So it'd be 400, 800, 1200, 1600, 2000, etc. Good luck finding a boss that'd last long enough to hit 4000. 03:02:35 Kings knight 03:02:49 lol 03:03:13 I found a guide that said "stock up on remedys, potions, ether, etc. basically everything before entering the final dungeon." I think I used maybe six ethers in there. 03:04:54 *_deepfire* looks at STARTS-WITH-SUBSEQ in alexandria and can't help but wonder if MISMATCH is more appropriate there. 03:04:58 JAS415 [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:10 <_deepfire> As an implementation, that is. 03:05:59 -!- infidel2 [n=infidel2@pool-173-58-73-242.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:06:23 haha 03:08:59 *_deepfire* puts on the glasses and observes mismatch use in the said function. 03:09:08 I think I only bothered to level before going to save the princess. 03:09:30 lol 03:09:47 Oh, and a single pass through the giant corridor on the way to fight the vampire. 03:10:04 koning_r1bot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 03:11:04 kpreid____ [n=kpreid@72-255-3-76.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:31 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.135.238] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:18:26 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:00 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:22 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:29:04 TDT [n=dthole@97-125-154-44.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:34 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:30:15 hey all. I was messing with CL-SQL a bit, and wrote a tiny test library of sorts. I posted it on github; http://gist.github.com/244360 -- would anyone mind taking a look at this and seeing if there are areas of the code I can shorten things up, or write better? 03:30:48 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-48.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:02 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-8-178.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:43:45 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-48.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:45:47 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d81734c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:43 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:53:28 sacker [n=sacker@206.74.57.91] has joined #lisp 03:54:50 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:55:41 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-59-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:56:41 -!- kpreid____ is now known as kpreid_ 04:01:03 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:02 -!- wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d814f71.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:47 Eko [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:47 -!- sacker [n=sacker@206.74.57.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:09:25 -!- davazp [n=user@17.Red-79-146-198.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:09:48 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 04:10:21 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.22.70] has quit [] 04:15:57 -!- TDT [n=dthole@97-125-154-44.desm.qwest.net] has quit ["sleep"] 04:17:57 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:03 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.56.148.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:18:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:27:08 zpw [i=d8c4acd7@gateway/web/freenode/x-vmqmtpvnpdrfppfu] has joined #lisp 04:27:18 Eko_ [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:30 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-29-110.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:28:51 Hi there, I'm new to Lisp. I've been using SBCL to learn the language, but there's one thing I've been wondering about. In Python, I could call os.system("mycommand -flags") and interact with my OS using Python. I could then, for example, return the results as a string and modify them. What is the recommended way to do this in CL? Or should I check out one of the 'scripting-centric' Scheme dialects like Gauche? 04:29:31 xristos pasted "cffi foreign-alloc issues" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91187 04:29:37 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 04:30:20 zpw, strings are immutable in Python 04:30:30 how do i leave memo for luis 04:30:31 as for your question -- look in the SBCL manual 04:30:47 minion, memo for xristos: like so 04:30:47 Remembered. I'll tell xristos when he/she/it next speaks. 04:30:56 Adlai: Well, I break up the output into what I needed. Sorry for the confusion. 04:31:32 troussan` [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:32 minion, memo for luis: possible cffi bug, check http://paste.lisp.org/display/91187 04:31:32 Remembered. I'll tell luis when he/she/it next speaks. 04:31:32 xristos, memo from Adlai: like so 04:33:28 -!- zpw [i=d8c4acd7@gateway/web/freenode/x-vmqmtpvnpdrfppfu] has quit [] 04:33:45 zpw: you want RUN-PROGRAM, see http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Running-external-programs.html 04:33:53 oh rats, he left 04:34:47 -!- Eko [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:17 minion, memo for luis`: possible cffi bug, check http://paste.lisp.org/display/91187 04:35:17 Remembered. I'll tell luis` when he/she/it next speaks. 04:35:59 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:47 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:45:19 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:52:58 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-202-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:28 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.106.70] has joined #lisp 04:54:07 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:55:21 hello! 04:55:43 what might I be doing wrong in:- (substitute "def" "abc" "abcpqr" :test #'equal) it returns me "abcpqr" only 05:00:59 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.253.170] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:06 okies, I got it, I need to use:- (cl-ppcre:regex-replace "abc" "abcpqr" "def") 05:01:46 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 05:05:09 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:06:29 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 05:08:58 -!- alama [n=alama@a81-84-249-124.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [] 05:09:22 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:40 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@74.96.130.153] has quit [] 05:24:27 saikatc [n=saikatc@pool-74-96-130-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:37 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:02 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:43:13 sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:43:55 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:44:07 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 05:45:10 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:46:14 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 05:46:43 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp057.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 05:49:13 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:49:20 anyone here tried weblocks? 05:50:19 redblue [i=star@ppp042.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:54:01 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93728.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:54:08 *p_l* tried, but never got far 05:54:45 for my startup, I'm going to build halfway-new system for WWW 05:55:01 (possibly on top of UCW) 05:55:33 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:58:40 what would be cool is a RAD tool / IDE for building web apps that let you use YUI objects and customize with cl 06:01:56 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:30 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 06:06:31 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 06:07:11 yates: I'm not so sure... I have seen what it caused to happen with ASP.NET 06:07:53 you compare the syntax of that script-like language with lisp? heathen! 06:08:21 in pcl, http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html 06:08:26 I don't have anything against ASP.NET. But I RAAAAGEEE seeing JS-based links because someone mistook hyperlink and "application-level link" 06:08:31 is a "name" the same as a "symbol"? 06:08:59 yates: I'm not comparing Lisp to ASP.NET - I'm talking about visual RAD tools available in VS 06:09:08 VS? 06:09:29 Visual Studio 06:09:43 i.e., an atom is a number, string, or symbol? 06:09:47 it does include visual RAD tools for ASP.NET 06:09:55 Interdev? 06:10:07 Visual Web Dev-something 06:10:53 as for CL question - names are read by READER and transformed into apriopriate SYMBOLs 06:11:08 as for atoms... somehow, I never had to deal with those ^^; 06:11:14 p_l: what else would a name be transformed into? 06:11:30 they are isomorphic to symbols, no? 06:12:07 yates: well, you might have used reader macros to generate some weird shit 06:12:20 oh 06:13:02 i'm excited about weblocks, and combining it with clsql 06:13:40 i'm just so immature in lisp it'll take some time 06:13:43 especially CLOS 06:14:35 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:14:45 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 06:16:06 for me, the biggest obstacle was getting rid of the "typical" arrangement of methods inside classes 06:16:29 you mean like in C++? 06:16:57 yeah. At least by that time I already learned about the "original" message-passing paradigm that this is based on 06:18:06 let me get this very basic lisp notion right: a "symbol" can be either a "function" or a "variable" or both? 06:18:20 a symbol is a symbol 06:18:45 it is a full-fledged object with various accessors 06:19:10 a symbol is a symbol. It can, however, be associated (reference?) a function, variable, place, etc. 06:19:48 place? 06:19:53 e.g.? 06:20:06 This is not a word. "This" is a word. 06:20:24 This is not a symbol. 'This is a symbol. 06:20:53 Jafet: we are not Lisp evaluators 06:21:09 ha ha 06:21:23 Darn 06:21:49 i still don't get place. i'm thick. 06:22:03 yates: a "place" has nothing to do with symbols in particular 06:22:13 what is a "place"? 06:22:17 yates: it is a concept used in the SETF machinery 06:22:41 yates: well, I'm not sure if you could store places, but place basically works kinda like pointer, inside the ugly yet beautiful SETF; 06:23:04 i'm getting that linked-list kinda feeling... 06:24:37 one of these days i'm going to read the machine code for the lisp interpreter and overcome all this abstraction! 06:25:08 it all comes down to loads, stores, moves, barrel shifts, multiplies, etc... 06:25:10 Didn't you know? The universe is in lisp 06:25:27 aha. 06:25:29 yates: these are all abstractions as well 06:25:40 these, or "these"? 06:26:03 the former.. the later doesn't make grammatical sense 06:26:08 "these", but not "\"these\"" 06:26:10 latter 06:28:19 this name/symbol shit is getting to me 06:28:29 it's like saying "1" is a representation for the number 1 06:28:33 well, duh 06:28:42 yeah, "1" isn't 1, but damn close enought, isn't it? 06:29:05 "1" is a string containing the character representing the digit 1 06:29:16 i meant in a colloquial way 06:29:25 or mathematical way.. 06:29:30 '1 is a quoted representation of the value 1, which itself has the value 1 06:29:52 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:56 a name of a symbol is just a string.. a reader, when it expects a symbol designation, reads a string and interns it in a package, which provides a mapping from names to symbols 06:30:37 numbers i'm good with. why not call symbols symbols? why do you have to say "names ... are represented by objects called symbols"... 06:30:56 (some symbol designations designate uninterned symbols) 06:31:02 again, from here (about halfway) http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html 06:31:10 adeht, but those are details 06:32:00 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-175-157.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:32:25 actually, it seems more like the symbol is the more tangible thing, in which case it would make more sense to say "symbols are represented by names" 06:32:40 but then i'm new and impatient and probably confused 06:33:14 the statement made in the book speaks about names like variable names or function names, which _are_ symbols 06:33:28 maus [n=maus@222.253.72.141] has joined #lisp 06:33:39 lisp is known for having the ability to quote itself. So take each element of a lisp program and try to quote it. 06:33:46 Hello! 06:33:55 (not all function names are symbols...) 06:34:00 Numbers quote to numbers; expressions quote to lists; identifiers quote to... 06:34:57 Jafet: please give me an example of a quoted expression. 06:34:59 Jafet: how is this relevant to names, such as names of symbols or names of functions 06:35:19 Sorry, what do you mean by "name" here? 06:35:34 yates, '(+ 1 2 3) 06:36:24 of course - thx 06:36:46 so that's the list "+", "1", "2", "3"? 06:37:04 No, it's the list '+ '1 '2 '3 06:37:12 "+" is a string. 06:37:27 is + a symbol? 06:38:28 + is a symbol interpreted as a function, while '+ is a symbol interpreted as a variable? 06:38:56 i'm confused 06:38:58 + is the addition procedure. '+ is a symbol with the name "+" 06:39:06 this is all half-assed semantics rubbish 06:39:06 Assuming I'm using the terminology correctly 06:39:18 adeht: please help, then 06:39:24 If you don't care about semantics, I suggest the retail industry. 06:39:47 (NB: unless it is in an environment where + is not the addition procedure) 06:39:48 Jafet: I am not interested in half-assed semantics 06:40:13 Very well, you may present your full-assed semantics if you prefer 06:40:35 Jafet: if you wish to discuss semantics, fine.. I'll come back later on 06:40:58 adeht: how does one understand the meaning of something without proper semantics? 06:41:19 yates: ask any child 06:41:49 adeht: one can use a concept without being aware of the word that describes it, otherwise one would not be able to bootstrap language usage at all 06:42:28 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-156-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 06:42:34 S11001001: i think you're supporting adeht's point 06:42:35 S11001001: why do you address me? 06:42:42 and would thus be doomed to be a silent child, seen but never heard 06:43:09 yates: not at all. 06:44:18 Proponents of universal linguistic theory believe, on the other hand, that most people are born with a small set of primitives 06:44:50 adeht equivocates not being *aware* of semantics-as-a-concept with not being able to use same concept 06:45:25 people go through trial and error processes, which constitute learning.. there's no "proper semantics", it's all fuzzy, but some people refuse to admit it.. 06:45:44 S11001001: perhaps you misunderstood me 06:46:07 adeht, but we are not discussing natural language. 06:46:07 dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-156-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:12 (Or are we now?) 06:46:19 you guys are deep 06:46:29 Jafet: I thought you wanted a discussion about semantics 06:46:45 this is fascinating, and i really hate to break it off, but it's 1:30 am here and my warm wife is waiting in bed... 06:47:00 so, thanks to all of you. 06:47:06 be back l8r 06:47:08 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 06:47:16 So what about semantics of are you talking? 06:47:25 -!- rme [rme@clozure-2D17767F.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:47:25 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-5-9.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:48:19 Jafet: of everyday language, which you are using in this channel, which you try and fail to make more precise than needed 06:50:20 I am not currently interested in the semantics of everyday language. 06:50:20 If you think I made a statement in error, say so. 06:51:18 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-156-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 06:52:47 you have made many erroneous statements 06:53:57 -!- troussan` [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:54:00 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 06:54:09 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:54:28 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 06:54:30 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:55:53 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.114.161] has joined #lisp 06:57:20 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:39 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 06:59:01 actually, to be entirely fair, + is indeed a symbol 06:59:44 whereas '+ is actually the two-element list whose car is the symbol quote and cadr is the symbol + 06:59:56 however, '+ evaluates to + 07:00:21 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:01:18 You mean ''+ 07:01:36 And '+, anti-respectively 07:01:51 hardly 07:01:55 fuss1 [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:01:58 would you argue with the lisp printer? 07:02:03 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:03:29 B4R74zy [i=3dod@71.sub-75-210-111.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:49 plz go 2 http://sites.google.com/site/affiliateshope & click on ads 07:03:59 S11001001: it's a matter of convention.. Schemers usually have this human-as-evaluator convention, whereas Commo Lispers usually use human-as-reader.. just my observation 07:04:11 Common 07:04:38 and the latter convention would be the standard one for this channel 07:04:42 indeed 07:04:52 I see then. 07:04:53 -!- B4R74zy [i=3dod@71.sub-75-210-111.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 07:07:09 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has joined #lisp 07:12:57 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 07:13:48 and that is why Jafet said that "+ is interpreted as a function", even though in Common Lisp he would be wrong 07:17:06 Good morning! 07:17:13 morning beach 07:17:38 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-2-227.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:06 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-88-86.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:24:12 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441246.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 07:25:08 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:25:31 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:29:18 c|mell [n=cmell@79.126.200.181] has joined #lisp 07:34:12 Ogedei` [n=user@e178212225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:37:24 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:26 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.114.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:18 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:45:55 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:21 -!- pragma_ is now known as tor}[ 07:46:35 -!- tor}[ is now known as pragma_ 07:58:21 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:00:42 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-48.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:45 shoafb [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:58 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:11:31 -!- Ogedei` [n=user@e178212225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:16 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:28:42 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.134.79] has quit ["night"] 08:29:22 saikatc_ [n=saikatc@pool-96-231-14-194.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:51 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 08:34:55 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:36:48 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp042.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:37:44 -!- cmatei [n=user@95.76.26.166] has left #lisp 08:40:51 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:42:10 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-48.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:30 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@pool-74-96-130-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:30 -!- saikatc_ is now known as saikatc 08:47:01 ave lispers 08:51:34 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.77.76] has joined #lisp 08:55:49 do sbcl has a radical like function? ie (expt 2 n) vs (sqrt 2 n) 08:56:07 ht [n=ht@ip98-160-237-110.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:23 Hello guys 08:56:35 hello 08:57:01 are you decent at lisp shoaf 08:57:23 shoafb* 08:57:46 ht, what do you want to know? 08:57:52 just having learnt it recently, it would depened on the level of project you were doing.. 08:57:56 well its not complicated at all 08:57:58 tic can help you 08:58:04 whats the problem 08:58:19 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 08:58:25 I need a function to return the number of non-nil atoms within a given list I have got it to do this 08:58:41 but now i need to error check is it is an atom not as a list 08:58:56 listp? 08:59:00 and listp doesnt seem to be working 08:59:22 is that atoms who are not nil themselves, or atoms who do not evaluate to nil 08:59:24 maybee my quotes are all wrong 08:59:34 ht, http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 09:00:01 ht: What do mean by "error check"? Are you supposed to signal a condition of the list contains other lists? 09:00:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:00:09 Xach, l1sp.org is acting up 09:00:31 ht: Or do you just need to return the number of non-nil atoms without counting lists? 09:00:39 hankthornlee pasted "Count-Atoms" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91191 09:01:07 kk just sent 09:01:22 eek. not very Lispish style. :-) 09:01:22 that is really cool :) 09:01:35 lol i am so c++ brainwashed atm 09:01:41 and java 09:01:41 oh, clhs has it: (sqrt x n) = (exp (/ (log x) n)) :) 09:02:16 I need to return the number of non-nil atoms without counting the lists 09:02:23 ht, meanwhile, check out http://gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html the section of "Formatting Lisp Code" 09:02:30 i mean with counting all of them in every list 09:02:37 kk ty 09:02:42 i appreciate it :) 09:02:44 clhs count-if 09:02:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm 09:02:49 you want to recurse into sublists as well, I assume? 09:03:08 ya he wont let us use its loops 09:03:14 or an assignment statement 09:03:19 alright. 09:03:27 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:32 ht: That URL was for you 09:03:42 count-if seems like your sol'n 09:04:16 lemme chizzeck it out brb mang :) 09:04:51 ht: Please type real English. 09:05:07 well acctually the recursive part in mine already works 09:05:19 let's see... 09:05:20 i am just concerned with the error checking at this point 09:05:27 (count-if-not 'listp '(nil 1 "a" 4 nil "b")) 09:06:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:06:34 he wants us to handle embedded lists as well like (a (b) b) and so forth would that handle that 09:07:11 and btw thanks for being so helpful 09:07:12 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:07:15 why don't you try it out and see, or read the documentation for that function 09:07:47 you aren't by any chance asking for help in your homework, are you? 09:08:17 yes i have it written completly besides the error check of only an atom and not a list 09:08:52 which i am trying to catch with listp 09:08:55 shoafb pasted "count-items-not-nil?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91192 09:08:55 does it have to give an error? 09:08:59 ya 09:09:20 no assignments, shoafb ;) 09:09:24 silly anal teacher, he used to punch fortran cards 09:09:35 @.@ 09:09:45 ht, well, what's the return value of the function? should it signal an error or otherwise a number? 09:09:53 insane coder, been teaching AI for 25 years 09:09:57 so you recurse down the list in the same way you would flatten a nested list structure. 09:10:00 no assignments at all? 09:10:18 ejs [n=eugen@163-12-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:25 he wants recursion rather than iteration? 09:10:30 ya 09:10:42 he wants us to be leet 09:10:56 recursion is divine, it not leet. :) 09:11:06 heh ya you are correct 09:11:13 there should be an 'is' in there 09:11:19 the function should return the number of atoms 09:11:33 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@124.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:11:36 and disregard nil atoms 09:11:42 shoafb: what's that eval doing there 09:11:47 and then it is () 09:11:52 return 0 09:12:05 and when just 'a return error 09:12:19 jmbr [n=jmbr@124.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:12:30 ((+(cAtom (car list)) 09:12:30 (cAtom (cdr list))))) 09:12:37 that is the recursion 09:12:37 adeht: i wasn't sure whether he wanted something that checked for atoms that were nil themselves or atoms that evaluated to nil... so if he had some callback segments like ''(a b c d)... 09:13:23 ya 09:13:52 shoafb: also, try (a nil b) 09:14:15 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-3-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:14:26 like his example for the embedded lists was ((1 2 3) red (green)(nil)(a b((7)())c red)) returns 10) 09:14:39 adeht: then 'a would be not nil... but (eval 'a) might be... then again by that same token i guess that type of recursion could go on infinitely... so i suppose it doesn't really belong... as i warned.. i'm just learning this language... had to put down 1500 lines in 2 days from nothing 09:14:48 ht: one way to solve this problem is to enumerate the cases you have (X is nil, X is a non-nil atom, X is a cons, etc.) and write down what you need to do for each case 09:15:01 ht: then after you have done that, translate it to code 09:15:35 adeht: (a nil b)? 09:16:25 hmm so right now i have 09:16:38 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:16:47 fade annotated #91192 "recurse" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91192#1 09:17:05 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:17:17 (defun cAtom (list) 09:17:17 (cond 09:17:17 ((null list) 0) 09:17:17 ((atom list) 1) 09:17:17 ((+(cAtom (car list)) 09:17:18 (cAtom (cdr list)))))) 09:17:20 ;----------End of function declaration 09:17:22 (print (cAtom (read)));call to the function 09:17:26 don't do that 09:17:33 oo kk sorry 09:17:51 you're making it too complicated. 09:17:56 ht: And please type real English. 09:18:15 -!- shoafb [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 09:18:25 Sorry beach 09:18:44 tic pasted "count-atoms" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91193 09:18:57 (works for your test case at least, heh.) 09:19:04 hehe 09:19:19 thank you! 09:19:20 of course, the name of the function is misleading 09:19:34 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:57 ht, you should really read through the formatting section of PCL. each time Lisp code is written in camelCase, a kitten is killed. 09:20:15 that is how are teacher wrote it : X 09:20:18 oh god 09:20:20 shame on him. 09:20:21 ht: kill your teacher. 09:20:22 o.0 09:20:24 natural selection demands it. 09:20:31 lol ^ 09:20:50 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f757899.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:50 lol 09:21:01 ht: so where did you come up with that error message 09:21:12 hey, programming was fun! I should do that more often. 09:23:53 well, that's enough for me. nite folks 09:24:40 I don't know lol, all I know is that he explained some functions in lisp for two days and then went on to double up our homework and make us write this function 09:25:15 HET4 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:25:21 i liked fades solution 09:25:30 it seemed failry clean 09:25:42 I don't 09:25:50 there's a typo in it, but it was based on my memory of on-lisp 09:25:50 because he probably couldn't technically give it to us in study week 09:25:59 seems inefficient and unnecessary 09:26:08 yes most of college is 09:26:09 lol 09:26:13 ? isn't very Common Lispish. 09:26:41 other schools teach lisp/scheme for beginners 09:26:45 not UNLV 09:26:46 lol 09:26:51 I thought it showed (in view of the camel case in the question) a certain pedagogical flair :) 09:27:07 ht, what? you're hard to understand. 09:27:09 ahyhow, I'm out. nite folks 09:27:16 09:27:20 adeht: if you simply replace lst to (car stuff) in from fade shouldn't that give what he wants? 09:28:36 The_Doctor: I don't know what he (?) wants, but that function is gratuitously recursive 09:29:35 metawilm [n=user@e179152212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:10 adeht: do you mean it could be simplified 09:31:14 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-28-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:32:48 ht: if it's for homework, it may be sufficient (but were you taught about tail-recursion), but in ordinary code it's a no-no.. you'd use COUNT for that, and in general you're usually better off expression iteration as looping 09:33:10 or rather, LENGTH.. sigh. 09:33:24 ya, i mean you would only use recursion for a large search i would think to 09:33:35 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:36 so much overhead 09:34:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:34:28 ht, that is not a correct conclusion. 09:37:45 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:37 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:40:50 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:47 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:59 "Warning: defining :BUSINESS-OF function visible from the KEYWORD package" -- LW 09:46:26 :accessor :business-of <-- a benign typo could have become a fun fun fun adventure in debugging 09:47:11 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:52:12 SimonH [n=simonh@78.144.145.64] has joined #lisp 09:52:26 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has joined #lisp 09:52:37 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:56:19 ht: don't dcc chat 09:58:39 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 09:58:50 fuss1: I was surprised the other day when I didn't find anything in the CLHS prohibiting the definition of a function with a keyword its name.. it makes sense, but I was still surprised 09:59:55 -!- fuss1 is now known as fusss 10:00:19 jep, it's a bit counter-intuitive 10:00:38 just means you need to change your intuitions :) 10:01:09 *fusss* recommends "The Data Model Resource Book" for all budding corporate programmers (leave the commune ye hippies!) 10:02:33 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:02:54 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:03:13 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:03:42 katchaFire [n=katcha@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:51 -!- katchaFire [n=katcha@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 10:08:40 milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.36] has joined #lisp 10:09:56 katchaFire [n=katcha@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has 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quit ["Leaving..."] 11:17:42 tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:19:39 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:20:25 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06cdcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:30 hello 11:22:16 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 11:22:26 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:22:42 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 11:22:49 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:24:26 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-144-32.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:48 timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:27:06 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:24 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-053-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:57 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:31:33 that spiros guy on c.l.l is retarded 11:31:37 -!- decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:33:52 -!- konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:35:57 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 11:36:29 good morning :> 11:37:13 how do I convert #P"pathname" to a string "pathname"? 11:37:24 clhs namestring 11:37:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm 11:40:02 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:12 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:33 thx 11:41:33 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:43:36 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C962.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:31 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:50:13 p0a [n=user@athedsl-381886.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:50:31 Hello how can I compute #C((cos x) (sin x)) without getting an error about REALPART/IMAGPART not being REAL? 11:50:44 how can I turn (cos x) to a real number 11:51:09 (complex (cos x) (sin x)) 11:51:20 #C is just for constants, just like #( and ' 11:53:36 beach: thanks 11:53:41 No problem. 11:57:52 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-40-235.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:00:41 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-053-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:04:34 http://filebin.ca/dvzux/xiobreak-1.ogv <---- lisp breakout :) 12:04:54 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 12:06:29 -!- jawhite [n=jolyonwh@203-158-55-225.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 12:10:04 lol 12:10:11 progamer! 12:11:47 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:18:30 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:18:44 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.36] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:18:49 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:20:14 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:24:12 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99.58.1.192] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:25:47 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:59 is there something like basename in common lisp? 12:27:45 what is basename? 12:28:20 -!- wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:28:32 a unix command/ c function that returns "bar" if handed "/foo/lol/bar/" 12:28:49 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:31:21 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:53 ah. not that i know of no. you could of course use the C function. 12:32:41 how would I do that? 12:33:57 and and wouldnt it be easier/better to just write a minimalistic basename function in lisp? 12:34:41 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 12:36:35 wakeup: you either use the implementation FFI or CFFI. 12:36:43 Guest1810 [n=chatzill@61.154.10.210] has joined #lisp 12:36:58 merlin_ [n=merlin@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:15 wakeup: well, you could also write it from scratch in Lisp of course. your chooice. :) 12:37:23 -!- merlin_ [n=merlin@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 12:37:26 Uhm you should get that with CL's pathnames, too; it's some combination of pathname-name and pathname-type (and perhaps more), but I'm not versed in pathnamology 12:37:41 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:52 -!- Guest1810 [n=chatzill@61.154.10.210] has quit [Client Quit] 12:40:10 tcr: I don't think either of those is equivalent. 12:40:14 similar, but not equivalent. 12:40:39 e.g. the directory/file ambiguity issue. 12:41:11 tcr: I guess its just (last (pathname-directory #P"/home/wakeup/")) for me thx 12:41:26 (let ((path (pathname "somepath"))) (concat 'string (pathname-name path) (pathname-type path)))) 12:41:56 wakeup: bear in mind that last returns a cons cell, and that pathname-directory *only* returns the directories; if it's a file path, you'll still just get the directory. 12:42:08 Ralith: I wouldn't have expected `basename /foo/bar/` to return bar 12:43:05 % basename /usr/bin 12:43:05 bin 12:43:08 so :P 12:43:30 (trailing slash has no effect) 12:43:38 Ralith: I am aware of and fine with that, since I only have paths in the form /foo/bar/ 12:43:59 wakeup: okay then! But name and document it correctly. 12:44:23 =) 12:46:04 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A18FE.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:25 sometimes I really wish there was a way to refer to a function's arguments as a list, like @argv, without having to use &rest 12:47:33 do anyone remeber the paper that compares CL to Fortran for heavy numeric stuff? 12:47:44 hypno: Fateman's papers? 12:47:49 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:48:25 I have on occasion wanted to have both &rest and normal arguments at the same time 12:48:25 fusss: ah, looks like it, thanks. :) 12:48:34 basically, an implicit destructuring-bind on a &rest parameter 12:48:55 you can get, but not for functions 12:49:03 if not for functions...? 12:49:09 you have to use destructuring-bind on &rest 12:49:40 ... 12:49:50 "I'd like an implicit X." "Well, you could just do X." 12:49:58 for macros you can use &whole 12:50:03 ooh, neat 12:50:13 In destructuring-bind, too, which was my point 12:50:14 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@124.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:50:25 you can write your own defun 12:50:54 tcr: ah. That wasn't at all clear, but is good to know. 12:51:11 xristos: put more directly, I'd like that functionality in lambda lists. 12:51:34 Honestly I'd use &optional + &rest 12:51:35 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-182-83.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:51:42 and then list* the stuff together 12:51:50 clhs list* 12:51:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_.htm 12:52:11 why list*? 12:52:43 uhm I can't answer that question because it's obvious? the &optional parameters are element, and the &rest is a list 12:53:03 oh right 12:53:08 (list* :a :b :c '(1 2 3)) => (:a :b :c 1 2 3) 12:53:13 yeah 12:53:19 that use had actually never occurred to me before :P 12:53:53 glad to be of help :-) 12:54:02 *nod* 13:01:41 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90757.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:10:51 -!- SimonH [n=simonh@78.144.145.64] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:12:53 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 13:16:59 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 13:17:22 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:20:31 nyef_ [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:59 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:21:03 -!- nyef_ is now known as nyef 13:21:20 G'morning all. 13:21:24 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 13:22:23 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:26:33 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 13:28:21 Alphonse [n=sean@71.22.50.38] has joined #lisp 13:31:03 benny` [n=benny@i577A7C21.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:58 hey, nyef. 13:35:46 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-3-252.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:39:31 -!- benny` is now known as benny 13:40:19 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 13:52:59 will (setf (get-hash :foo my-hash-table) nil) effectively remove the key :foo from the hash-table, or should I use something else for that? 13:53:41 clhs remhash 13:53:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_remhas.htm 13:53:51 ah thanks 13:54:21 stassats: how should I have searched for remhash, given that I didn't know the name of it? 13:55:09 madnificent: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_hash_t.htm 13:56:24 would it be advisable to read the hyperspec completely, or is it better to use it as a reference only? 13:59:08 madnificent: As something to read cover-to-cover, you'll probably have more fun with CLtL or CLtL2. 13:59:25 The hyperspec started out as CLtL with all of the fun bits removed. 14:00:12 madnificent: Go to a hash-related function, then click on the Up-Arrow to come to the respective chapter's dictionary 14:00:35 I think I've ended up reading just about all of the hyperspec, but more by reading individual chapters every so often. 14:02:38 tcr: super, that's handy :D 14:03:01 nyef: perhaps CLtL2 is something I should read first 14:05:21 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:06:19 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:07:04 jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet223-84.mobile.CARNet.hr] has joined #lisp 14:09:54 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@85.165.69.172] has quit [Dead socket] 14:10:15 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:10:17 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@72-255-3-76.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 14:11:50 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.201.108] has joined #lisp 14:12:08 Will a finalizer associated with an object be garbage-collected itself after it has been run, and the object was gc'ed? 14:12:32 provided it's an anonymous function 14:14:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:15:15 what the hell is SET? 14:15:20 anyone use it? 14:15:40 it's the same as (setf symbol-value) 14:15:49 like SETQ without quoting? 14:16:18 Notes: The function set is deprecated. 14:16:45 it shows up most often when I forget the #\f in setf 14:16:55 weird "Cannot change NIL, it's a constant" type errors 14:17:29 for some reason drewc likes it :) -- i've only rarely used it 14:18:08 drewc must have an LRU policy for the permutad index 14:18:19 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:55 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:19:05 echo "look into KPAX's form-validation thinggie" >> ~/TODO 14:21:48 milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.36] has joined #lisp 14:23:18 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-160-243-45.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:11 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:28 -!- ejs [n=eugen@163-12-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:26:39 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:41 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:27:01 new sbcl eh 14:28:42 fusss: "weird errors"? You mean like "nihil ex nihil"? 14:31:50 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-40-235.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 14:32:21 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 14:33:37 does sbcl aim for a monthly release? 14:34:23 Yes. 14:34:36 Timeboxed releases, with an (ideally) week-long freeze before each release. 14:35:32 ok, was wondering why there seemed to be a new release so often, it never seemed to be that broken or anything hehe 14:35:58 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-053-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:22 It's not that it's broken, it's that it gets improved over time, and an explicit timeboxed release policy gets those changes to users on a timely basis. 14:36:42 It's actually one of the best open-source lisp projects in terms of release engineering. 14:36:51 ejs [n=eugen@163-12-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:25 Guthur: release early, release often. 14:38:22 nyef: i'm sure its encouraging for the devs as well to see their patches get implemented so timely 14:38:39 i may update sometime 14:38:54 i'm on .29 14:40:24 Looking over the changes for the last month, I see fixes for a couple platforms, large file support for one platform, some things to help support SLIME or other interactive environments, a pile of external-format work, some other assorted bug fixes such as timer/system-clock interaction and MOP fixes... 14:40:58 And there's already a change since the release. 14:41:04 worthwhile work by the sounds of it then 14:41:22 it was broken and we just didn't realise it, hehe 14:41:24 brentb [n=buescher@71.181.168.227] has joined #lisp 14:41:43 Oh, in some cases the bugs are more obvious, but yes. 14:41:56 And if you don't realize that it's broken, is it really broken for you? 14:42:28 if you don't realize you're in free fall, is the ground really rushing up to meet you? 14:42:29 brentb, memo from p_l: HDF5 seems to be popular for scientific data, however FITS rules in Astronomy world 14:42:37 nyef we going all philosophical again, 'if a tree falls in a empty wood does it make a sound' sort of thing 14:43:12 philosophy is good for jokes. not so good for making things work. 14:43:46 Huh? It's not philosophical at all 14:44:27 It's rather practical. If this car will shake itself apart at 120MPH, that's clearly a bug. If you never wind it up over 90MPH, does it matter? 14:44:40 tcr, i wasn't being too serious 14:45:19 that's a design limitation, not a bug 14:45:29 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:45:44 Guthur: If you're working with CLOS, 1.0.33 may be interesting to you because it provides who-specializes on functionality. To you this means, that you can use M-? on a class in Slime, and get a list of methods that specialize on that class 14:45:57 but not taken into consideration in the design if they let the car actually go over 119 14:46:29 tcr, that actually sounds quite cool 14:47:20 -!- ``Erik [i=Here@69.140.109.104] has quit ["hw mangling."] 14:47:40 guthur: true 14:48:57 alama [n=alama@a81-84-249-124.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:49:48 though it could be taken in to consideration if the bean-counters determined that the cost of adding a delimiter outweighed the likely cost of people actually making a claim because of said defect 14:50:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@163-12-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:50:43 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:57:17 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 14:59:50 ejs [n=eugen@163-12-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:11:40 Xof: Ping? 15:12:28 tic: thanks. urgh. 15:14:41 Does anyone know if there's still a CLX mailing list? 15:14:58 -!- ejs [n=eugen@163-12-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:16:36 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:16:38 nyef: that would be Xof's inbox 15:16:39 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-188-100-155-142.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:16:47 That's what I was afraid of. 15:17:03 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:18:11 ska [n=user@124.157.196.140] has joined #lisp 15:18:11 -!- ska is now known as ska80 15:18:11 -!- ska80 [n=user@124.157.196.140] has quit [Client Quit] 15:18:41 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441246.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:20:23 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@79.160.22.139] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 15:20:52 decto [n=azeaze@78-22-118-207.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 15:22:01 moah [n=gnu@dslb-188-101-027-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:47 i'm getting 1146 errors from mysql with clsql 15:23:28 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-10-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:39 (clsql:select 'mytable) says "Error 1146 / Table 'mydatabase.MYTABLE' doesn't exist" 15:24:00 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-10-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:21 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:43 ironChicken: (clsql:select '|mytable|) ? 15:25:54 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:21 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.169.131] has joined #lisp 15:27:16 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [] 15:28:33 antoszka [n=antoszka@cl-142.waw-01.pl.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:32 hmm. now it says "No source tables supplied to select statement." 15:31:38 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:52 i wonder if there's something wrong with my clsql:def-view-class 's 15:32:26 ironChicken: maybe your view-class thingie there is named MYTABLE 15:32:50 (and your table named mytable) 15:34:09 that's true. i used (clsql:def-view-class mytable ...) and the mysql table is called `mytable' 15:34:23 but i thought both lisp and mysql were case insensitive? 15:34:44 ironChicken: I do not know about mysql, but CL tends to be case SENSITIVE. 15:35:29 ironChicken: and if you (def-view-class mytable ...) my bets are on you havening done (DEF-VIEW-CLASS MYTABLE ...( 15:35:32 eh 15:35:34 )) 15:37:35 i did (def-view-class mytable () ..) in lower case 15:37:50 yeeees. 15:38:57 specbot: clhs readtable-case 15:38:57 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-8-178.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm 15:39:32 is normally :upcase 15:40:36 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-47-164.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:41:56 ironChicken: (eq '|a| '|A|) => NIL 15:42:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-40-182.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:22 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:43:45 goodness. mysql is case sensitive 15:44:38 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 15:44:43 cools. everyone is case sensitive then :D 15:45:12 You might wanna do the mysql tables in UPCASE then. Seems the easiest route (: 15:49:05 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:51:21 rvirding [n=chatzill@h92n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:41 -!- decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has quit [Client Quit] 15:57:22 Axius [n=ade@92.82.85.149] has joined #lisp 15:59:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-40-182.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 16:00:33 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:42 -!- timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:03:23 Todays happy discovery is that at least some versions of tar have an option to pass filenames through sed before adding them to the tar file. 16:03:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:54 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:06:24 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.143.15] has joined #lisp 16:07:44 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:09:14 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:11:03 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 16:13:16 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-162-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:26 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-225-189.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:27 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:51 schme: yes, except the table already exist 16:15:19 ironChicken: ok. so maybe def-view-class |MYTABLE| 16:16:10 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-053-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:16:13 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:48 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 16:16:51 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:18:12 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:24 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:30 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:20:57 -!- Alphonse [n=sean@71.22.50.38] has left #lisp 16:22:08 postamar [n=postamar@75-119-230-29.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:26 Hmm, egrep, when used on UTF8-encoded files is pretty useless, because a `.' regexp doesn't stand for a character, but a byte, so you need to know how many bytes the encoding for that character has. 16:24:55 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.85.149] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:25:02 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:07 -!- msingh [n=msingh@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:29:10 mk [n=mk@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 16:29:33 ... 500k for a 3417x64 grayscale bitmap? Eek. 16:29:39 -!- mk is now known as Guest72059 16:29:44 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:03 nyef: what bitmap? 16:30:14 spectrogram. 16:31:41 I'm seeing this weird temporal pattern in places. If it were graphics, I'd say it was dithered. 16:32:35 And I'm wondering if it's windowing, accumulated error of some sort, or the effect of frequencies outside of the range of the FFT. 16:32:57 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:05 -!- Guest72059 [n=mk@76.73.16.26] has quit [Client Quit] 16:34:57 mk [n=mk@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 16:35:00 I guess some sort of short-term averaging over time might clean it up a bit, but that would just tell me how to mask it, not what causes it. 16:35:21 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:35:24 -!- mk is now known as Guest10494 16:37:19 mk2 [n=mk2@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 16:39:16 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:39:17 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:39:49 -!- Guest10494 [n=mk@76.73.16.26] has quit [Client Quit] 16:41:06 mk4 [n=mk4@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 16:42:12 -!- mk2 [n=mk2@76.73.16.26] has quit [Client Quit] 16:42:15 ziga` [n=user@BSN-176-215-6.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:54 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:22 can i somehow determine the slots of a cffi:defcstruct, 16:45:34 Does anyone use Aquamacs / Slime to edit Common LIsp - I have issues with the tilde character "~" 16:45:48 -!- coyo[schol] [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:57 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:02 Guthur: I'm going to go with "yes", though I don't know by what process. 16:46:06 cool. so mysql has a lower_case_table_names variable which can be used to make it case insensitive about table names 16:46:11 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A401.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:37 it breaks mixed cased table names, though 16:46:47 -!- brentb [n=buescher@71.181.168.227] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:49 maacl: In FORMAT, as a random constituent character, or in filenames? 16:46:55 coyo[schol] [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:59 nyef: ok i'll go with that, i'll check cffi docs 16:47:34 maacl: the mac swedish keyboard also treats ~ funny 16:47:37 maacl: Your version is probably very old 16:47:43 nyef: everywhere but at the REPL it works 16:47:54 tcr: version of what? 16:48:01 Guthur: I imagine that if cffi doesn't provide a simple way, you can always either find the definition of the struct in source or you can poke through its internals and figure out how it knows that a given name maps to a particular slot. 16:48:03 of slime, maacl 16:48:42 oh i have the source, hehe its my defcstruct 16:49:08 maacl: M-: (slime-changelog-date) 16:49:31 but i was considering passing 'mystruct to function with some data to populate it 16:50:52 to be clearer i am creating a buffer with multiple mystructs 16:51:13 i'm think its not a very good solution though 16:51:42 So you want to be able to effectively setf (slot-value ) ? 16:52:10 lakc [n=vivid@unaffiliated/romani] has joined #lisp 16:54:22 Guthur pasted "prototype vbo creation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91203 16:55:10 thats the prototype stuff basically i am thinking of passing 'mystruct to that 16:56:21 I might go with a different approach though, i was trying to condense those 6 lines of the loop do 16:56:56 and make it more flexible so that it could be used with different vertex definitions 16:57:19 Yeah, I don't know how to help you there. 16:57:28 mk4 pasted "dotimes-macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91204 16:57:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:36 tcr: 2009-05-17 16:57:48 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:58:13 beach: egrep works here 16:58:41 rvirding: Any tips on how to fix? 17:00:13 I think I'll just explicitly pass a list of slot symbols, if I decide to follow through with the idea 17:01:05 Hi, I want to write a macro to traverse 2d images and 3d volumes. It should take the array-dimensions from a variable. I'm stuck at this point. I put the code I want to create onto paste.lisp.org. 17:01:12 mmap: Cannot allocate memory 17:01:12 fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 8337(tid 3085268672): 17:01:12 unexpected mmap(..) failure 17:01:29 dnolen [n=dnolen@12.130.116.181] has joined #lisp 17:01:34 ^____ have I just lived beyond my ram-means or does that mean something else? 17:02:09 maacl: no unfortunately not :-( I have just gotten used to always pressing SPACE after the ~ to make sure it becomes a ~ 17:02:14 fusss: it's more about address space than real memory. ulimit, perhaps. 17:02:43 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:49 sometimes in emacs it does not work, but it usually it does 17:03:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:03:05 M-n is suppose to print the tilde in with Option set to Meta+German, but SLIME appears to override it to be Next note 17:03:18 i think one possibility would be to use a slot-pointer and then increment, but each slot type would need to be the same for it to work effectively 17:03:25 rvirding: what key combo do you use to print it? 17:03:50 pkhuong: I think it's because I have 12 screen sessions 17:04:00 *fusss* one of these days, proper sbcl daemons! 17:04:02 rvirding: I can't get it to print it when Slime is active 17:04:12 or indeed use a slot offset, CFFI is quite a funky lib 17:04:47 Also it is weird that you can't see many characters on the keyboard, you have to go search for them and learn where they are, but that is a mac problem 17:04:55 has anyone tried clisp's multithreading support? 17:05:25 p_l: very briefly 17:05:30 to get a ~I have to do alt-¨and then SPACE 17:05:46 and I forget the extra SPACE 17:05:51 p_l: the day it was announced, and it didn't build bordeaux-threads so i threw it back 17:06:11 but I am not really a slime user, mostly programming erlang 17:06:31 decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has joined #lisp 17:06:32 rvirding: I get M-¨is undefined 17:06:33 fusss: What would make an sbcl daemon "proper"? 17:06:57 I use emacs not aquamacs 17:07:18 and it uses the cmd key for M- 17:07:31 nyef: ability to run daemonize itself without screen/detachtty 17:07:44 rvirding: ah, that is the explanation 17:07:44 maacl: what you can do is not use the slime that comes with aquamacs, but install it on your own 17:07:51 so the key is for gettng other chars 17:08:05 maacl: or ask the maintainer of that slime port to update it 17:08:21 tcr: ok, thanks will give that a shot 17:08:36 I tried aquamacs but found it a bit "funny" so I went back to straight emacs 17:08:47 maacl: the latter, or the former? 17:08:57 fusss: So... some magic to detach from its ctty, fork, and run everything on the child? 17:09:23 tcr: is there a way to universally bind M-¨ to ~? 17:09:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:32 tcr: the former 17:09:48 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:10:06 maacl: You're facing a bug which was fixed since 17:10:14 maacl: Make sure to get slime from cvs 17:10:27 tcr: Is MOSTLY-STABLE still the recommended thing? 17:10:45 nyef: No, since... 3years? 17:11:11 nyef: haven't really thought about going that deep into magic; i prefer to see when things fail, instead of wondering if they failed yet or still working 17:11:13 tcr: ok 17:11:42 maacl: I just checked my aquamacs and I use a finnish keyboard setup in which M-¨inserts a ~ character 17:12:02 nyef: lol do you know how easy it was.... (cffi:foreign-slot-names 'vertex) 17:12:12 doh 17:12:16 emulate-mac-finnish-keyboard-mode 17:12:39 rvirding: hey, that works - great! wonder if it srews with anything else 17:12:50 can't remember why but it worked better than the swedish keyboard 17:13:09 tcr: Does the manual still recommend MOSTLY-STABLE? 17:13:10 probably :-( 17:13:33 rvirding: well I declare it a fix for now at least 17:13:52 found emacs easier as it separates using the alt and cmd keys 17:14:03 *rvirding* must go now 17:14:19 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:29 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:14:38 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:14:53 nyef: kind of 17:15:03 ska80 [n=user@ppp-58-8-121-193.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:15:52 nyef: I guess close stdin, stdout, stderr, redirect them, fork 17:16:00 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:42 p_l, you might want to consider setsid or at least setpgrp 17:17:13 right 17:17:34 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:20:10 -!- prip [n=_prip@host163-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:29 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 17:20:59 prip [n=_prip@host62-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:21:00 ska80` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has joined #lisp 17:21:06 -!- ska80 [n=user@ppp-58-8-121-193.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:42 does anyone have a suggestion on how to browse comp.lang.lisp minus all the spam? I'm currently just using the google interface, but the spam ruins it. 17:21:46 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:49 mcspiff: I use a simple method: not bothering. It saves a lot of time that I can then spend on IRC or hacking on stuff instead. 17:22:56 mcspiff: www.eternal-september.org 17:23:09 mcspiff: eternal-september.org 17:23:49 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:59 ah perfect, thanks 17:24:15 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:25:23 nyef: Theres some interesting stuff posted there. Me (poorly) reinventing the wheel is also a waste of time. 17:25:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:49 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:29:19 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:33 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:30:40 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:03 clsql is working fine for me now: http://ironchicken.livejournal.com/15771.html 17:32:59 ironChicken: how fine? 17:33:12 fine enough to roll out a an application over it every week? 17:33:16 well, i can execute queries 17:34:01 ok all i mean is that i've overcome the problem i had a few hours ago 17:34:11 -!- ska80` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:16 ska80` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has joined #lisp 17:34:46 with schme's help 17:37:40 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h92n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715083437]"] 17:38:25 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:00 ironChicken: next time feel free to bug me if there is no clsql help in sight 17:39:12 i live and breathe (and bleed) that thing 17:39:33 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host103.190-137-185.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:34 ok thanks. what do you think about the table name case sensitivity thing 17:39:36 ? 17:39:46 should there be a way of handling it built in to clsql? 17:40:13 ironChicken: it's not the case that will kill, rather the _underscores 17:40:23 resist the urge to use _ and - 17:40:43 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:40:50 or be prepared for a lot of symbol->string conversion, sanitization and reconversion again 17:41:09 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.113] has joined #lisp 17:41:19 exu0 [n=u@188.105.48.24] has joined #lisp 17:41:37 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:52 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:42:01 fusss: my -'s seem to be working ok so far 17:43:19 try changing database backend or host OS 17:43:27 ah ok 17:43:30 some really weird phantom bugs 17:44:03 there is a def-view-class option for setting the SQL-name for the slot, but it gets tiring after, specially if you have a lot of "attribute" tables 17:44:28 well, my project just shipped; hunchentoot and clsql again 17:44:38 time to call it a night 17:44:49 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:44:51 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["mothers, don't let your children telecommute!"] 17:44:54 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:24 anyone built latest ecl with mingw? 17:45:39 So, it occurs to me that it'd be nice to be able to make a displaced array to a -slice- of another array. I know that this is possible (even straightforward!) if you write custom slice element accessors, but it'd be more convenient if you could just use AREF. 17:46:22 I agree 17:47:19 picnik330 [n=nikita@77.79.180.19.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 17:47:38 it's not just about aref, but that the slice would be a sequence 17:47:49 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:47:57 ... I think it'd double the per-dimension overhead for non-simple vectors, but otherwise be doable. 17:48:08 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:48:10 I wanted to write a sequence-slice on top of Xof's sb-sequences for some time but forgot about it again 17:48:27 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:52 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:10 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:49:35 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:49:35 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:47 Okay, it'd also increase the cost of index computation, but... 17:49:50 -!- ska80` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:50:00 ska80` [n=user@ppp-58-8-121-193.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:50:23 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:35 I wish there was some protocol to add complex types for classes, e.g. to add a type (sequence-slice element-type (start end)) 17:50:51 SimonH [n=simonh@89.241.230.83] has joined #lisp 17:51:59 together with type variables, so you can write a a function of type (sequence-slice ?type *) -> ?type 17:52:12 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:52:41 -!- ska80` [n=user@ppp-58-8-121-193.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:46 ska80` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has joined #lisp 17:53:16 Sometimes I think about ignoring CL compatability and just going in and fixing whatever I find to be broken or nonoptimal. 17:53:32 But that's the road to an MFTL environment. 17:53:49 Yeah I wish I was competent enough for that, but I'm not (yet :-)) 17:54:32 MFTL? 17:55:07 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 17:55:14 p_l: My Favorite Toy Language^WLisp. 17:55:19 hehe 17:56:11 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:56:31 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:56:45 I was wondering if it would be possible to do it from inside CL, by either having the code "compile" into ANSI CL or adding apriopriate features to implementation... (actually, doing both would be even better - generic CL-extra compiler and implementation-dependant stuff) 17:57:35 You may end up having to maintain two languages 17:58:04 I've always been a fan of haskell's very cleary defined extensions. If you want to go beyond the standard, fine. But its very obvious when that occurs. 17:58:27 mcspiff: that's what I was thinking about as well 17:58:45 From my experience with Lisp, you don't actually want a programmable programming language, but a compiler with a good MOP 17:58:48 tcr: till you get enough traction to get such stuff into CLtL3 :P 17:59:30 Hi all! I am CLISP user and I want to use readline lib in my program, but I didn't find any readline examples in net for lisp. #lisp, could you explain me how to make cool autocompletion? 18:00:56 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.143.15] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:03:20 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-10-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:32 ska80`` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has joined #lisp 18:05:32 -!- ska80` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:29 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:06:32 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:50 You know what'd be neat? If it were possible to write new GC scav, sweep, and trans methods from lisp at runtime. 18:11:36 So that one could create a new primitive-object type and tie it in properly without having to do a full rebuild. 18:15:52 interpre [i=62c281e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-hzcmecgothbeqzuo] has joined #lisp 18:16:23 what's a recommended common lisp interpretor for the windows environment? 18:16:39 interpre: open source? 18:16:56 tcr, open source is fine 18:17:16 clisp, or clozure cl; the latter if you want to use with slime 18:17:33 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-91-86.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:17:51 SBCL isn't exactly recommended, but we'd dearly love to have interested users willing to hack on it to improve things. 18:18:32 clozure does threading, and 32/64bit native code on windows well 18:18:45 So I've been looking at making deftypes properly taking an &environment parameter, and it seems to me that with that in place you cannot do the cached parsing from type -> ctype 18:19:07 thanks tcr 18:19:12 because the parsing might depend on the lexical environment? 18:19:31 ... I think I'm gonna kill whoever wrote PKGBUILDs for clisp 2.48 ... 18:19:51 "PKGBUILDs"? 18:19:52 I've got four clisp threads running at full speed *all* of the testsuite 18:19:57 How is clozure on Windows these days? 18:20:06 *rsynnott* hasn't used windows in some time 18:20:21 nyef: files containing instruction on building an Arch package 18:20:27 Ah. 18:20:47 'arch' being a linux distribution? 18:20:55 People seem to be talking about it a lot, these days 18:21:14 its great distro 18:21:37 yeah, though I'd run mad if not for AUR 18:22:15 I guess you like the sources 18:22:17 *rsynnott* is used enough to ubuntu I have no intention of changing now 18:22:45 ubuntu is ok, but arch is clean and simple 18:23:13 p_l: American United Revolutionaries ? 18:23:29 everything works there, not like on this damn win, I cannot even build ecl 18:23:55 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.0.234] has joined #lisp 18:24:22 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:24:37 -!- picnik330 [n=nikita@77.79.180.19.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit ["    (xchat 2.4.5  )"] 18:25:10 fe[nl]ix: Arch User Repository, iirc 18:25:39 Arch User-community repository, to be exact 18:26:20 it stores PKGBUILDs submitted by users - installation is then as easy as downloading a tarball, unpacking it and running makepkg. It will download all sources and build the package 18:26:36 -!- ska80`` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:44 yaourt (my fav. tool) makes it even easier, by doing online search on AUR and being capable of building dependencies from it 18:26:47 ska80`` [n=user@ppp-58-8-121-193.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:26:54 almost like in bsd ports 18:27:09 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:32 amaron: BSD port-like system is there for distro packages - you can sync the tree of distro PKGBUILDs to make your own customized ones 18:27:45 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:55 however, pacman could be made better, IMHO 18:28:01 rsynnott: Not like I'm unbiased, but CCL on Windows is pretty great. With Cocotron installed, you can even do Cocoa GUI applications (although it's not 100% yet). 18:28:06 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:28:37 frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:56 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:29:00 Oh, I hadn't seen cocotron 18:29:03 that's rather clever 18:29:08 *rsynnott* might give it a go 18:29:23 -!- frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:33 ska80``` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has joined #lisp 18:29:36 p_l, I think there are more things on ports then on packages 18:29:40 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:54 amaron: I know, I just described what is available on Arch 18:30:04 Is there an easy way to open a second repl to the same lisp connection in slime? 18:30:10 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:31 amaron: unfortunately, there were few quite important packages where I definitely didn't agree with distro (I don't want to pull GNOME just to run UIM) 18:30:58 p_l, I agree 18:31:19 for me *bsd or arch are both great 18:31:28 tic: fixed 18:31:35 with windows I have trouble 18:32:06 c|mell: i used SET? Where? 18:32:23 fe[nl]ix pasted "slime-new-repl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91206 18:32:57 I'm competing with a friend of mine to make some combinatorial optimization solvers for windows, he is doing it in haskell, I want to make it in lisp 18:33:30 It has to be a dll callable from excel, so ecl was only choice 18:33:51 amaron: Has to be a DLL, or has to be a COM component? 18:34:21 nyef, just to be able to call it from excel 18:34:23 Umm... And if you're calling from excel, shouldn't you be using mingw instead of cygwin? 18:34:40 I'm using mingw 18:34:44 Ah, okay. 18:35:05 so far I cannot even build ecl :) 18:35:08 sellout: how much is available, in practice, through Cocotron? 18:35:14 amaron: get windows SDK 18:35:23 painless ECL build 18:35:37 ah 18:35:53 there are makefiles in ECL source to be used with windows SDK 18:36:09 it definitely built 32bit ECL properly 18:36:22 *p_l* ponders when the damned testsuite will finish... 18:36:57 p_l, great, thanks 18:39:29 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:08 is there an intermediate cl tutorial? 18:40:29 besides http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 18:41:02 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:07 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:41:30 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:41:33 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:41:56 " At least with Cocotron, you end up with a beautiful Mac app, and hey, Windows apps are kind of ugly anyway so theres no loss there." - hehe 18:42:37 -!- ska80``` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:42:46 -!- Eko_ [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:43:24 i'm getting hung up with names, symbols, and objects, the way they are presented there 18:44:30 rsynnott: my few times with Macs didn't warm me to that platform... at least not GUI-wise, and everything else I've already got :) 18:45:11 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has joined #lisp 18:46:19 -!- SimonH [n=simonh@89.241.230.83] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:46:24 -!- alama [n=alama@a81-84-249-124.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #lisp 18:47:14 -!- ska80`` [n=user@ppp-58-8-121-193.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:15 p_l: I'm not sure how much is there. I haven't worked on that, and don't have a Windows box to play with. 18:47:37 ska80``` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has joined #lisp 18:47:49 Good evening! 18:48:00 Hello beach. 18:48:22 hey, how is speech recognition going? 18:48:38 yates: if PCL is too advanced for you, there is tourtezky : 18:48:45 minion: tell yates about gentle 18:48:45 yates: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 18:48:51 Been mostly thinking about other things today, but I've been seeing something that I don't understand in my spectrographs. 18:48:57 Errr. spectrograms? 18:49:55 I have a 128-sample window taken every 16 samples using the default windowing function (hann?), and for some of the lower frequencies I'm seeing what looks like a dithering effect over the time axis. 18:50:03 tp put it simply : things are named by symbols, which are lisp objects with identity, a name slot, a function slot, and a plist slot, essentially. 18:50:19 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 18:50:52 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-381886.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 18:50:55 -!- aintme [n=user@187.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:51:05 nyef: What do you mean by "dithering effect"? 18:51:27 JAS415 [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:31 It's periodic-looking, smack-dab in the middle of a high-amplitude band, and repeats about every 4-5 frames, just fades in and out while the next band up is reasonably stable and the next band down does a fade-out. 18:52:04 nyef, do you have some lib for sound sampling and pattern match? 18:52:26 aintme [n=user@194.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:52:55 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:52:58 nyef: What is your sound source? 18:53:00 I'm figuring it's either spectral leakage due to the windowing function, the effect of a frequency component lower than the FFT range, or rounding errors, but I don't know what. 18:53:11 Umm... One of the timit samples. 18:53:31 Don't know those. Could it be tremolo? 18:53:37 dr1-fvmh0/sa1.wav 18:54:37 That doesn't look like a complete URL. 18:54:45 amaron: I'm working from a wav file right now, so my sound sampling is to grab the wav data and unpack it. I have no real pattern match yet. 18:55:02 It's not, it's the filename of the sample within the timit extract I got. 18:55:54 ska80```` [n=user@ppp-58-8-121-193.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:55:56 http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/sa1.wav 18:56:01 I'll delete it in a few minutes. 18:56:25 nyef: As you said, I would attribute that to an amplitude modulation with a frequency that is lower than what is captured by the size of your window. 18:57:58 nyef: Given the sampling rate of that sound source, can you figure out the frequency of that modulation? 18:58:04 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 18:58:04 Okay, so that suggests two things to me. First is that it's reasonable to smooth that out via averaging adjacent frames. Second, that I can find that other frequency from the interference pattern. 18:58:05 -!- ska80```` [n=user@ppp-58-8-121-193.revip2.asianet.co.th] has left #lisp 18:58:05 -!- ska80``` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:13 amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:58:21 ska80```` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has joined #lisp 18:59:21 nyef: it should be something like 64 or 80 samples long. 18:59:56 so the frequency is the sampling rate divided by 70 or so. 19:00:12 -!- ska80```` [n=user@124.157.196.140] has left #lisp 19:00:33 Right, and I have a 16000 Hz sample rate, so that's... around 228? 19:00:38 -!- amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:53 Or do you mean the frame rate that I'm working from? 19:01:01 amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:01:16 No, what you said is right. 19:01:49 But the lowest frequency component in the FFT is about 33Hz and it goes up from there, I think. 19:02:18 Or did I manage to completely mess that reasoning up? 19:03:02 nyef: OK, when you have two frequencies that are close, and with similar amplitudes, you can view that as a product of the average frequency and the difference frequency. 19:03:30 nyef: 128 gives you what frequency resolution? 19:03:53 Ah, 125 Hz. 19:03:54 16k/128 which is 100 or so. 19:04:01 yeah 19:04:06 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:18 phase difference helps 19:04:19 Right, mixed that up with the 512, which is a 31.25 Hz. 19:04:44 So you can expect such a phenomenon. 19:05:21 If you increase the size of the window, you will likely avoid that. 19:05:38 So if I'm seeing this at row 57, that's (- 64 57) => bin 7, or 875Hz, and it's a set of superimposed frequencies near there? 19:05:58 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-144-32.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:22 But if I increase my window size, I lose temporal resolution, right? 19:06:28 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:06:57 nyef: Yes, that's a fundamental problem with Fourier-based analysis. 19:07:25 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-175-157.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:07:31 nyef: There are ways of fixing that problem by considering phase, derivative of the phase, etc. 19:07:54 you might use the phase difference to get more exact peak values 19:08:04 nyef: My colleague knows much better than I do about it, but he essentially proved that all methods that exist are essentially equivalent. 19:08:10 I wrote a guitar tuner based on fft once which does that to get exact values 19:08:40 Oh, right. I was going to try to write a piano tuner at some point. 19:09:11 nyef: I take it you know that pianos are not tuned exactly, right? 19:09:17 Right. 19:09:49 But I get the distinct impression that the inexaction in the tuning is fairly precise. 19:10:22 nyef: True, it is based on average data from experiments of perception. 19:10:24 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:20 anyway, with phase difference, you can increase the bin resolution if you slide your windows. 19:11:49 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-36-195.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:49 delYsid: You mean phase difference across overlapping windows? 19:11:57 yes 19:12:09 Neat. 19:12:20 the dspguide.com site used to have a very neat tutorial on the technique, but its in C. 19:12:28 Used to have? 19:12:37 nyef: So then you can increase your window size without losing temporal precision. 19:12:45 I mean, I didnt check in a long time if its still there 19:12:57 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:12:58 Okay, cool. 19:13:03 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 19:13:13 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-128-143.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:13:28 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:37 So the piece I haven't figured out yet is how I get from the spectral data to recognizable parts of speech such as phonemes. 19:14:03 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:14:22 sacker [n=sacker@206.74.57.91] has joined #lisp 19:15:21 delYsid: Thank you for that site. Just bookmarked it. 19:15:23 Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has joined #lisp 19:16:25 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-10-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:16:28 So the piece I haven't figured out yet is how I get from the spectral data to phonemes or other sub-word speech features that I can work with. 19:18:03 nyef: are you doing speech recognition? 19:18:14 Guthur: Hopefully, yeah. 19:18:30 But there's this gap in my understanding of the process. 19:18:32 what is the meaning of "steel bank" in sbcl? 19:18:43 cool, i seen you talk about this the last couple of days just didn't realise that's what you were doing 19:18:45 yates: It's a play on Carnegie Mellon. 19:19:36 grumble 19:19:49 yates: It's also in the FAQ or the manual or both. 19:19:55 nyef: not sure how helpful it will be, but i know "The Theory and Technique of Electronic Music" (book) at least mentions phonemes. the book is free at least. :) 19:19:56 nyef: Any bottom-up-only approach is essentially doomed to fail, because humans emit top-down hypotheses in order to analyse that stuff. 19:20:00 I just hit a situation in which I wish EQL method specialisers worked on strings 19:20:37 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 19:20:39 beach: Sure, but any top-down-only approach is doomed to fail if you can't get as far as the speech signal. 19:20:48 yeah. it's unfortunate specializers do not work on arbitrary types. would have been so immensly great. 19:20:54 nyef: Indeed! 19:20:56 nyef: is this more a learning exercise or is there an application? 19:21:14 hypno: it would! 19:21:37 Guthur: Right now, it's more learning exercise than anything else, but I do have application in mind. 19:21:39 although strings are not exactly "arbitrary". It's just very inconvenient right now that they aren't EQL 19:22:13 mathrick: yupp. been there, done that. :) 19:22:46 Then again, the initial exploration done prior to any large project is a learning exercise. 19:23:37 hmmmmmmmmm 19:23:45 *mathrick* abuses symbols 19:23:45 So, as I said, I'm still completely lacking in clue as to how to get from spectral data to predictions as to what is being said at a sub-word level. 19:23:48 would it be correct to say that a name is a label for a symbol? much like identifiers can be labels for variables? 19:23:58 yates: not really 19:24:14 symbols have names, but names don't need to have symbols associated 19:24:23 nor are they guaranteed to be unique 19:24:52 Immutable7 [n=U521240@92.28.37.140] has joined #lisp 19:24:56 what is an example of a name without a symbol? 19:25:08 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:19 "foo-bar-baz-I-don't-think-this-even-exists" 19:25:34 there might or might not be a symbol with this name 19:25:44 and even if there is, it doesn't have to be interned 19:25:45 that's not a lisp form, is it? 19:25:50 sure it is 19:25:54 try it in REPL 19:26:02 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:05 -!- interpre [i=62c281e1@gateway/web/freenode/x-hzcmecgothbeqzuo] has quit ["Page closed"] 19:26:14 * "foo-bar-baz-I-don't-think-this-even-exists" 19:26:14 "foo-bar-baz-I-don't-think-this-even-exists" 19:26:33 nyef: I remember a case when I listened to rock lyricks and I analyzed "investigate" as "remufficate". 19:26:35 nyef: is there any open source speech toolkit 19:26:36 that's a string, isn't it? 19:26:38 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:26:42 yes 19:26:49 and what type do you think a symbol's name is? 19:27:02 my lecturer has some links to toolkits but they all seem to have quite restrictive licenses 19:27:42 mathrick: string? 19:27:54 Guthur: The only hits I've found for actual speech recognition seem to be for a dead-looking project of dubious-at-best completion. 19:28:01 yates: (type-of (symbol-name 'foo-bar-baz)) 19:28:05 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:42 i'd hazard a guess that a lot of the effective analysis techniques are covered by patents as well, there was a lot of corporate money pumped into speech recognition research 19:28:59 yates: it would be correct to say that names *usually* function as labels for symbols and thus a subset of them is indeed used in the context in which they're uniquely and unambiguously associated with symbols. This context is called "interned symbols" and "reader". But that's very much not universally true 19:29:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.106.70] has left #lisp 19:30:27 yates: it's interesting to consider scheme, which has completely decoupled the reader and variables from symbols, and thus in scheme symbols *are* strings, simply, with the extra EQ operation defined 19:30:43 in CL variable names are still referred to with symbols though 19:31:18 how do you quit out of sbcl? 19:31:35 never mind 19:32:32 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@12.130.116.181] has quit [] 19:32:37 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:16 mathrick: i'm processing what you wrote... 19:34:15 -!- amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:34:26 yates: it's bound to be a bit confusing the first time around 19:34:36 -!- Immutable77 [n=U521240@92.28.37.140] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:34:49 since it's an odd mix of abstract concepts and concrete values which sometimes morph into each other 19:35:03 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:11 mathrick: a little... i suspect that once i get these concepts down, it'll be much easier to proceed. 19:35:38 i've dabbled in lisp for 10 years, but never really got down to understanding it well 19:35:46 mainly via xemacs/emacs 19:36:07 I'd suggest discarding *emacs completely for the purpose of understanding symbols in CL 19:36:09 dangerous that one can do so much and be so ignorant... 19:36:29 i am - using slime/sbcl 19:36:30 yates: it might, or might not, think about how symbols are used to refer to lexical variables 19:37:07 -!- syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:07 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 19:37:53 add` [n=user@78-69-84-129-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:22 Immutable77 [n=U521240@92.28.37.140] has joined #lisp 19:38:35 When not using the repl (I'm using slime), which lisp mode is recommended? 19:39:15 yates: first reader reads strings, and interns them to create symbols. Thus each occurence of any given string in the same package is converted to the same symbol. But afterwards, the symbols are used *exclusively* for their identity and not at all for names, so that each time the same symbol is used to refer to a variable, it's converted to a reference to the same location. And lastly, symbols (and names) are discarded completely and do not oc 19:39:15 cur in the compiled code at all 19:39:31 *add`* is using emacs if you couldn't get that out from my previous question 19:40:26 add`: SLIME's. 19:40:35 mathrick: well, now it seems that you're saying a name IS a string... true? 19:40:41 yates: yes 19:40:43 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:53 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@c-24-118-53-243.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:03 but symbols (in CS) aren't, since they can be compared with EQ, which strings can't 19:41:07 (not usefully at least) 19:41:21 pkhuong: I didn't know they had their own mode, I'll look in to it :-) Thanks 19:41:37 a symbol is its name, home package (might be none), and plist, more or less 19:42:40 err, s/CS/CL/ 19:42:58 the term "home package" is foreign to me 19:42:59 mathrick: Value-slot and function-slot. 19:44:04 and that too 19:44:18 yates: it's the package the symbol is interned in, if at all 19:44:37 package == object? 19:44:41 all of the names you write in the source are symbols interned in some package 19:44:49 *nyef* is tempted to write a constraint-checker for SBCL lowtags, find the full set of orderings that satisfy the known constraints, and see if they all build. 19:44:50 not really, a package is a package 19:45:00 brother 19:45:04 :) 19:45:23 sec 19:45:24 A package is two sets of symbols. 19:45:32 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:36 yates: http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 19:45:36 Well, a package is two sets of symbols and a name. 19:45:43 And one of the sets is a subset of the other. 19:46:14 And there's a constraint that no two symbols in the larger of the two sets have the same name. 19:46:43 And I'm for some reason thinking about expressing this in terms of predicate calculus. 19:46:46 -!- Immutable7 [n=U521240@92.28.37.140] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:47:42 yates: package serves roughly the same role as a module in python or a namespace in many other languages, except it's completely different in how it actually functions and thus thinking about as a namespace only will trip you up 19:47:50 yes 19:48:00 i was already thinking C++ namespaces 19:48:05 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.113] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:13 don't 19:48:16 but it's a mechanism to allow unrelated pieces of code to use the same names without conflicts 19:48:16 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.113] has joined #lisp 19:48:39 they are more like different libraries of code 19:48:51 a package is a full-blown object. it has a name, a use-list, a list of nicknames, etc. its main function is to provide a mapping from symbol names to symbols 19:49:04 yates: package is more or less a key that allows looking up textual names and tying them to concrete references to things 19:49:21 i haven't even gotten to object yet... 19:49:28 not entirely unlike a hash table, and indeed a hashtable would be a fine implementation for a package 19:49:37 i don't understand the relationships between objects, symbols, functions, and variables 19:50:07 the primary difference is that both symbols and packages are true values and can be manipulated like any other data, unlike C++ variable names or namespaces 19:50:16 yates: objects you can forget about 19:50:23 Immutable7 [n=U521240@92.28.37.140] has joined #lisp 19:50:33 Everything that you can stuff into a variable is an object. 19:50:52 since there's not much that'd be usefully called "object" that can't be called a "value" without any loss of generality 19:50:52 mathrick: then you've pretty much discredited http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html 19:51:02 he uses the term extensively 19:51:08 yates: and it's not wrong 19:51:10 nyef: would delete-package be enough to remove all code from said package after GC? 19:51:12 object == value in lisp 19:51:29 p_l: not really, classes and methods tend not to be GC'd 19:51:51 hmmm 19:51:55 p_l: Probably not. There's some function on the globaldb to clear the info associated to a symbol. 19:52:04 fmakunbound? 19:52:07 Well, to clear the info of a particular sort. 19:52:12 yates: don't think about objects in C++ term. "Object" in Lisp is completely interchangable with "value" 19:52:25 and what does value mean? 19:52:32 I was thinking of doing a global-scale who-calls in the image and manually specifying sets to be removed 19:52:36 anything your code can manipulate 19:52:40 a string is an object 19:52:41 mathrick: No! 19:52:43 an integer is 19:52:47 nyef: howso? 19:52:57 Your code can manipulate things that aren't objects. 19:53:05 places? 19:53:05 this a problem - the language seems to obfuscate itself by using words in completely different meanings than normal 19:53:07 right, that was bad phrasing 19:53:22 yates: please define "normal" :) 19:53:42 yates: That's not so much the language ofuscating itself as having defined meanings for the terms long before anybody else did. 19:53:45 ...and so we travel down the road to oblivion 19:53:47 yates: nyef's definition was good: anything that can be stuffed into a variable 19:54:21 integer, string, symbol, instance of a CLOS class, CLOS class itself, package 19:54:23 those are all values 19:54:38 packages are kinda stupid values, since they can't exist without a global name 19:54:43 but otherwise they're values 19:54:44 -!- decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:55:01 nyef: ok 19:55:06 isnt a value anything you can call eql on? or am I totally off the mark 19:55:28 mcspiff: that's equivalent to nyef's criterion 19:55:36 what domain do values take on? 19:55:46 mcspiff: why EQL and not something else? Do you mean "call EQL with" or "compare usefully with EQL"? 19:56:01 mathrick: the latter 19:56:02 yates: uhh, whatever you can imagine 19:56:05 yates: Unless otherwise constrained, "objects". 19:56:18 nyef: I was asking, because I was interested in removing parts of code that I didn't need from image - not a complete tree-shaker, more like "I know that this app will work without that, so remove it" 19:56:26 mcspiff: then no, since there are looser equality predicates that yield true when EQL doesn't 19:56:27 nyef: and we're back to that word again... 19:56:29 p_l: Nice. 19:56:40 objects are things you can stuff variables into? 19:56:45 yates: just try to take value as a primitive concept 19:56:47 like a point or line 19:57:11 yates: no, objects are things you can stuff into variables 19:57:11 nyef: Chicken Scheme uses similar method - you can remove certain parts of the runtime from the app during compilation 19:57:12 if you have a variable in your code, whatever that variable holds is an object 19:57:14 yates: Very well. An object is a number, a symbol, a cons, a structure, an instance of a class, a function, an array, or some other primitive types. 19:57:27 mathrick: huh? for any object X, I can say that EQL would be useful in comparison for identity of said X 19:57:30 nyef: Of course, if you reference them, everything breaks... 19:57:37 -!- Draggor is now known as Beeggor 19:57:54 p_l: Yeah, I'd go through and for every symbol that you wish to expunge just nuke the infodb entries for it. 19:57:54 adeht: exactly 19:58:04 adeht: that's dependent on the definition of useful. "asd" isn't EQL to "asd" for instance 19:58:16 mathrick: they are if they are the same object 19:58:28 (let ((x "asd")) (eql x x)) 19:58:30 (eql "asd" "asd") ==> NIL 19:58:37 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:39 mathrick: not necessarily 19:58:48 mathrick: those aren't the same object then. 19:58:50 mathrick: That last won't work under constant coalescing compilation. 19:58:59 I know 19:59:06 Or even a hash-consing reader. 19:59:14 nyef: few interesting tricks I had also seen in LW documentation, where it mentions removing parts of CLOS machinery 19:59:16 that's why I wouldn't say EQL is useful for comparing strings 19:59:21 point is, I can very well imagine cases when comparing a string object against something else for identity is useful 19:59:27 because its behaviour is essentially undefined 19:59:34 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-33-165.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:54 No, the behavior of EQL is very well defined. 20:00:07 The issue is that there's an explicit undefinedness about the identity of literal strings. 20:00:10 adeht: but then you can s/string// from the above sentence and it'll still be true :) 20:00:24 mathrick: indeed 20:00:40 nyef: I know, we're going into places we all understand and it's not helping anyone understand anything they haven't before 20:00:57 *nyef* writes down a book idea, "the pedant's guide to common lisp". 20:00:59 yates: okay, so can we move on, taking objects as primitives simply? 20:01:07 nyef: we have one already 20:01:15 mathrick: sure 20:01:18 it's called CLHS 20:01:42 -!- Immutable77 [n=U521240@92.28.37.140] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:01:49 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:01:53 mathrick: No, no... One that covers application. 20:01:54 yates: okay, so objects need to be referred to somehow to be useful, because otherwise you can't do anything with them 20:02:15 mathrick: while you're s//ing, s/else// :) 20:02:47 is an object the output of the reader? 20:03:08 yates: no, although the output of the reader consists of objects 20:03:11 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 20:03:28 mathrick: isn't that what i said? 20:03:40 yates: not all animals are deer, but all deer are animals 20:03:48 *p_l* sometimes wishes he could have .NET AppDomains in a CL implementation 20:04:26 if you say animals consist of deer, then they're equivalent, no? 20:04:28 yates: so "is the output of the reader objects?" would be more correct 20:04:29 no 20:04:38 mathrick: And, for that matter, CLHS is less than forthcoming about actual -meaning- and conseqences of certain things that we "all know". 20:04:42 deer  animals 20:04:48 but that doesn't mean deer = animals 20:04:54 or that animals  deer 20:05:13 Let me guess... you're using characters that don't show up in the font my IRC client is using? 20:05:19 no, i see it 20:05:32 nyef: he's using the in-the-set-of operator 20:05:33 nyef: UTF-8 for "is contained in" 20:05:34 oh, probably 20:05:54 Wait, in the set of and not is a subset of? 20:06:05 bah, yes 20:06:11 I meant "is a subset of" 20:06:21 woops, same mistake here 20:06:23 except I don't have a Compose sequence defined for the latter 20:06:23 i know 20:06:31 -!- cmm [n=cmm@79.178.135.94] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:06:39 deer subset of animals 20:06:46 yates: anyway, yes, all the reader will ever produce is objects 20:07:12 please tell me why that's not what i said? 20:07:35 because you said "objects are all the things reader will ever produce" 20:07:47 right 20:07:48 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:49 that's not true? 20:07:53 and that's not true, you can have objects that aren't produced by the reader 20:08:05 ...I think, I guess you can hack your way out with #. 20:08:09 but let's not go there 20:08:24 ok 20:08:33 yates: anyway, objects, or values, need to be referred to 20:08:39 for that you need variables in your code 20:08:42 that's not what he said mathrick 20:08:45 perhaps it would be more fruitful to not speak in absolutes, but in "normally"s at this point 20:08:57 just like you don't introduce a 1st grader to complex numbers 20:08:57 yep 20:09:00 No, no... The original query was "is an object the output of the reader?", which is badly-formed. 20:09:23 nyef: i think i agree 20:09:29 SimonH [n=simonh@89.241.230.83] has joined #lisp 20:09:37 yates: and to refer to variables, you need to establish a protocol with the reader, so that everyone knows what's being spoken of 20:09:39 i should have said, "Is the output of the reader objects?" 20:09:46 that protocol in CL consists of symbols and packages 20:09:58 At which point we have, "yes, the output of the reader consists of objects". 20:10:15 Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:10:32 Or, more accurately, "the normal output of the reader consists of objects", as there's also error handling to consider. 20:10:39 everything that can be read is an object, but not all objects can be read. 20:10:43 But we can come to that later. 20:10:50 nyef: I wanted to add that, but I decided not to 20:10:54 yates: now, all symbols you use to refer to variables, ie. all symbols that partake in this protocol, will be interned 20:11:15 mcspiff: Actually, we also have the possibility of reader-macros with side-effects. 20:11:30 and interned means "they will be assigned to a particular package, in such a way that any later occurence of the same textual name in the same package will yield the exact same symbol back" 20:11:34 no-no-no. everything that can be read is printed representations of objects, not objects themselves 20:11:48 cmm-: lies 20:11:54 you're confusing the reader with the REPL 20:12:07 nyef: I really have no business being in this conversation to be completely honest. 20:12:16 nyef: don't forget headaches 20:12:16 oh wait 20:12:19 mathrick: I don't think I am, no 20:12:32 PLEASE STOP DERAILING THIS CONVERSATION ANY FURTHER THANK YOU 20:12:34 all of you 20:12:54 yates: are you still on top of what I said? 20:12:59 no 20:12:59 Bah. You're both wrong. Everything that can be read is objects, as the reader operates in terms of either a stream or a string, and works on characters, all of which are objects, but it also works in terms of a "printed" representation of its output... 20:13:09 yates: ok, where did you get lost? 20:13:25 nyef: man, you type fast 20:13:43 ... and we're almost at the point of someone bringing up the "Kantian Metaphysics", just to make the c2-wiki smug-lisp-weenie reference complete. 20:13:45 i thought names are interned to symbols 20:14:08 -!- sacker [n=sacker@206.74.57.91] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:10 yates: yes 20:14:11 cmm-: Practice! ^_^ 20:14:13 that's what I said 20:14:17 we impose our rules on the world of CL, together with the ANSI community! 20:14:19 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-053-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:25 yates: have you been disabused of the separate notion of "name" yet? :) 20:14:35 yates: all names you put in your (textual) source go through the internal representation as symbols 20:14:48 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:15:01 CL is never directly concerned with the characters you put in a file other than when the reader sees them 20:15:17 ... I really am going to have to write the pedant's guide, aren't I? 20:15:44 mathrick: i think we're on the same page, yes 20:15:46 yates: and to ensure an orderly conduct, there's a protocol in place, which amongst other things says all symbols you talk about with the reader are interned 20:15:47 'morning 20:15:58 yates: good 20:15:59 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-128-143.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:08 mathrick: #:WTF? 20:16:20 mathrick: please stop it 20:16:24 nyef: please 20:16:27 i keep wondering what's meant by "If HASH-TABLE is not synchronized, BODY will execute with other WITH-LOCKED-HASH-TABLE bodies excluded" , for sb-ext:with-locked-hash-table .. doesn't that really mean all bodies vs. _that_ hash-table instance? or is it really as-it-says _all_ w-l-h-t (the "form itself") bodies? (and/or possibly only vs. ones that are also not synchronized) 20:16:42 francogrex [n=user@84.38-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:16:43 cmm-: should we switch to /msg? 20:16:47 cmm-: no, but i'm working on it 20:16:52 mathrick: no 20:16:58 then I don't understand you 20:17:06 lnostdal: it means that it'll grab a global hash-table lock. 20:17:15 mathrick: You keep giving unqualified statements that are trivially disproven. 20:17:16 it's like in accounting where debit/credit don't necessarily mean subtract/add... 20:17:19 yates: the deal with names is very simple.. there are a variety of entities.. some are named by symbols, others by strings, still others by other objects and designations 20:17:30 nyef: because you've seen what happens when I make them precise 20:17:35 mathrick: I just think you are being more confusing than elucidating 20:17:40 it's a simplification 20:18:16 adeht: uhh, how can you refer to a variable in the source by anything else than a symbol? 20:18:24 ok, folks, i need to go bake my wife a cake - her birthday was yesterday and she's begging me for it 20:18:31 please excuse me 20:18:33 yates: you do that 20:18:35 yates: Okay, have fun, happy baking. 20:18:46 class dismissed. 20:18:49 -!- add` [n=user@78-69-84-129-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:50 i'll save this conversation and come back to discuss it later. thank you all for your help 20:18:59 mathrick: I don't think I implied that you can with that statement 20:19:01 *nyef* tries to get back to figuring out SBCL lowtags. 20:19:07 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 20:19:18 * ddarius decides to make a top down flying shooter where enemies never get deallocated until they are killed. You lose when you run out of memory. 20:20:07 pkhuong, ok, hm, but "how global"? .. does it mean a single lock instance for that particular hash-table instance? or is it even "more global"? (maybe the question is very dumb, but just reading that doc-string sentence many times i can see it being possible to interpret like that, i think.. heh) 20:20:17 he who closeth his irc client when not actively conversing, hath some hope left for him 20:20:41 lnostdal: global global. 20:20:46 okay, I can go back to abusing symbols in a way that will probably come back to bite me 20:21:07 -!- mk4 [n=mk4@76.73.16.26] has quit ["CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)"] 20:21:12 pkhuong, ok, got it .. thanks! .. :synchronized t it is then :) 20:21:18 oh right, I remember now, I switched here to ask something stupid about packages at runtime before deciding it's probably stupid and futile 20:21:25 more global than global thats a strange one, but the last 10 mins here seem rather strange 20:21:32 -!- aintme [n=user@194.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 20:22:00 nope it went on longer than 10 mins 20:22:53 Guthur: yikes, a whole hour lost! 20:23:23 Immutable77 [n=U521240@92.28.37.140] has joined #lisp 20:23:35 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:38 add` [n=user@78-69-84-129-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:25 maacl_ [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:26:15 slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BAFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:42 -!- Immutable77 [n=U521240@92.28.37.140] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:51 -!- SimonH [n=simonh@89.241.230.83] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:26:59 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:15 -!- slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BAFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:27:22 decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has joined #lisp 20:27:59 well, the reason i asked is because i don't view synchronization as to be the same as "simple classic locking" .. but perhaps that is wrong too, or people mix the terms and stuff 20:28:03 Eko [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:31 slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BAFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:47 i mean .. in a DB i can make multiple changes, then commit .. and have that be atomic, right? .. that's "sync." for me .. not the same as "locked pr. single-operation/slot-access" stuff 20:28:58 -!- slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BAFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:04 then lock around all those changes. 20:29:50 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-91-86.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:29:59 yeah, pkhuong .. but i'd still like for the granularity (sp.?) wrt. locking to be on a "pr. database table" (to still use that analogy) .. not the _entire_ db 20:30:01 The native hash table locking is only provided to guarantee concurrent accesses won't destroy the integrity of the data structure. You're on your own when it comes to your application. 20:30:12 lnostdal: then :synchronised t! 20:30:18 mathrick: btw, it's certainly possible to refer to variables w/o use of symbols :) 20:30:20 so iiuc :synchronous t is what i wanted 20:30:21 yes :) 20:30:46 adeht: in the source? To lexical variables? I don't think so 20:30:56 The default case is only a workaround, again because we don't want a corrupt hash table (that'll confuse both the runtime and the GC). 20:31:08 (and even though i don't actually need the sync. support (in db sense), i still want the pr. table (bit higher resolution locking) part .. heh .. i rant--back to code now) 20:31:50 -!- Eko [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:32:00 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:37 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-47-164.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:46 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 20:32:48 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-47-164.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:32:48 mathrick: my first thought is if you have first-class environments.. but it's also possible to consider the user, passing a suitable value to (ecase n (0 var-a)) to be referring to var-a 20:33:46 ... 20:33:55 you're still using symbols in ecase 20:34:22 yeah, but the user doesn't, and my point is that you can consider the user referencing the variable w/o using a symbol 20:34:50 the user is not interesting, he/she/it doesn't exist as far as CL is concerned 20:35:01 anyway, that is so far away from anything remotely relevant to what I should be working on I can't continue that any further 20:35:09 -!- Immutable7 [n=U521240@92.28.37.140] has quit [Success] 20:35:32 heh, by user I also mean the code using it 20:38:31 -!- maacl_ [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 20:39:49 slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BAFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:55 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A401.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:02 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:06 -!- slash__ is now known as slash_ 20:49:05 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:31 -!- add` [n=user@78-69-84-129-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 20:50:54 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-190-31.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:51:15 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-182-83.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:51:17 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 20:51:44 slash__ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CBD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:26 -!- slash__ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CBD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:53:42 Not sure how to phrase this properly, but using Apple's Interface Builder you can easily tie the value of an object's slot to display in a widget, so that when the slot changes, the value in the widget also gets changed. Is there a similiar library for CL? 20:54:09 cells-gtk? 20:55:00 adeht: Straight forward, thanks :) 20:55:41 slash__ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CBD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:28 robyonrails [n=roby@host198-20-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:56:29 -!- slash__ is now known as slash^ 20:57:43 -!- slash^ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CBD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:56 slash__ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C712.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:24 -!- slash__ is now known as slash^ 21:00:00 hmmm clbuild claims to support it on their website, but doesn't seem to be listed as a project or wnpp 21:01:14 ah it was removed 21:02:47 how about Formulate? it's on common-lisp.net 21:02:48 try http://github.com/Ramarren/cells-gtk3 21:07:13 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BAFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:05 tic: Not seeing it 21:08:09 adeht: thanks 21:08:09 twkm: pin is this: (cffi:foreign-alloc :double :initial-contents '(4.0 3.6 57.6 8.0)) 21:08:18 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 21:09:07 davazp [n=user@207.Red-83-46-7.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:27 sorry wrong window! 21:09:48 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:59 mcspiff, http://common-lisp.net/project/rjain-utils/ 21:11:24 mcspiff: also, if cells, use cells from Ramarren's repo. The official one never worked for me 21:15:36 p_l: Ramarrens worked here, thanks for the heads up 21:16:02 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B3D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:08 timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:17:16 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host198-20-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 21:17:56 Ramarren's cells-gtk3 was the first cells-gtk copy that managed to properly compile and I think to start the demo 21:18:16 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet223-84.mobile.CARNet.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:26 cells' problems was what disappointed me with certain KT :P 21:18:28 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B3D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:18:57 p_l: i've heard about cells from reading about KT, but id always avoided it 21:20:16 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:20:19 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:02 realistically, I could probably hack something up with the MOP+LTK 21:23:03 -!- HET4 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:23:53 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:37 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:41 ok the C people were pissed because when i asked a question about cffi they said this is a CL question not a C question 21:29:35 francogrex: Dare we ask? 21:30:49 ok it's cffi again so CL people might ne pissed :) if pin is (cffi:foreign-alloc :double :initial-contents #(4.0 3.6 57.6 8.0 17.5)) is passed to a C function as function (int *pin) then accessing the size of pin in C by using sizeof(pin)/sizeof(double) doesn't work 21:31:22 I meant passed as argument to a c function 21:31:26 mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has joined #lisp 21:32:05 -!- slash^ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C712.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:39 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:41 francogrex: pin is a pointer 21:32:52 (to int!) 21:33:21 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:25 adeht: sorry i meant (double *pin) 21:33:36 i just typed it here wrong 21:33:59 francogrex: you generally need to pass the length as well, or have another way of detecting it 21:34:25 adeht: yes it works bvery well when I pass the lengty as well 21:34:33 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:45 so what's the problem? 21:34:48 i was thinking it couldn't work to detect it by some method inside the C func 21:35:31 -!- lakc [n=vivid@unaffiliated/romani] has quit [] 21:35:32 adeht: no, then if I have to, then I have to pass the length, it's not a big deal 21:36:02 francogrex: that call to foreign-alloc is incorrect 21:37:35 fe[nl]ix: hmm, probably, but it seems to work in all other respects except the size of the array 21:37:48 fe[nl]ix: why it wrong? 21:37:59 fe[nl]ix: So if you are not working on cltl3, and exams are over, what are you working on? 21:39:05 francogrex: you're using a single-float vector to initialize the allocated memory 21:39:46 fe[nl]ix: By the way, I followed the lectures of one of my colleagues this semester in the "networking" course, hoping one day not to have to ask you to fix the hotel Wifi for me. 21:41:44 fe[nl]ix: you mean i should use: 3.d00 instead of 3.0? 21:42:59 3d0 is sufficient syntax 21:44:28 ok; but doesn't really get it right. http://paste.lisp.org/display/91216 21:44:31 that depends on *read-default-float-format* :) 21:44:42 and there's no coercion? 21:45:14 adeht: *read-default-float-format* it's SINGLE-FLOAT 21:45:19 I think by default 21:46:54 arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.40.60] has joined #lisp 21:47:07 evening 21:47:14 Guthur_ [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:27 hello arabesca 21:47:36 hi beach 21:50:09 I wonder why there's no coercion, e.g. (defmethod translate-to-foreign ((x single-float) (type (eql :double))) ...) 21:50:23 -!- Ogedei` [n=user@e178193115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 21:50:50 adeht: you mean in my code specifically? 21:50:56 no, in CFFI 21:51:11 ah; you think that would have helped? 21:51:17 me here 21:51:31 it would make your foreign-alloc form ok 21:51:36 is there anything in CL specs about lazy evaluation? 21:51:41 (I'm gonna do a test and change everything to int) 21:51:57 arabesca: No. 21:52:21 beach ok 21:52:51 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-176-215-6.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:44 francogrex: yes 21:53:50 ah, ok.. it's not a silent error, so the rationale may be to encourage the user to coerce himself or fix his data 21:53:58 alama [n=alama@a81-84-249-124.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:54:03 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-160-243-45.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:08 changed all to it; checked it: int n=sizeof(pin)/sizeof(int) is taking value of 1 21:54:17 instead of the actual length of the vector 21:54:44 francogrex: I said pin was a pointer.. sizeof(pin) is just the size of the pointer 21:54:47 -!- arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.40.60] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:04 arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.39.139] has joined #lisp 21:55:15 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has quit [] 21:55:26 adeht: and that is 1 right? 21:55:30 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 21:55:31 no 21:55:56 I mean depending on the data type 21:55:59 in your case, sizeof(pin) == sizeof(int).. 21:56:15 yeah yeah; i see 21:56:29 hmm; tough one; 21:56:32 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has left #lisp 21:56:45 you don't write too much C, do you? :) 21:57:06 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 21:58:32 rarely 21:58:58 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C962.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:59:01 but I notice that all "good" lispers are almost all good C coders as well; i'd like to see an expection 21:59:23 well, if you don't know the size of the array a priori, or have a sentinel value, whatever, in general you have to pass the size along with the array 21:59:42 or more CL-like, pass a start and end indices :) 22:00:18 ok 22:04:32 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:08:18 francogrex: The exception will be hard to find because all "good" lispers are good programmers generally, and it's hard to avoid running into C at some point in your programming career. 22:08:48 nyef: my thoughts exactly. I agree 22:08:51 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 22:08:53 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:52 -!- Guthur_ is now known as Guthur 22:11:23 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.244.113] has quit [] 22:12:50 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-135-30.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:18 ok time to sleep. thanks all and see you soon 22:19:07 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:31 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:23:17 -!- francogrex [n=user@84.38-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:23:41 *nyef* realizes that the general array slicing machinery he's been thinking about actually allows for arbitrary index reordering in the slice. 22:24:13 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-135-30.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:37 dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 22:26:25 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.0.234] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:30:24 hi, do you know if there is a texinfo version of the clisp implementation notes? 22:32:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:50 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:33:43 whats an exit code of 133 indicate with sbcl? 22:34:11 mcspiff: In what context? 22:34:18 Oh, wait, it's over 128? 22:34:23 yes 22:34:37 (- 133 128) => 5. What's signal five? 22:34:40 Process inferior-lisp exited abnormally with code 133 22:35:00 Should I know? 22:35:21 nyef: sigrap 22:35:28 stassats: Varies by system. 22:35:29 trap 22:35:33 Well, by platform. 22:35:42 wait that might actually make sense 22:36:19 SBCL dying from SIGTRAP making sense? What, did you monkey with sigaction? 22:37:51 could it be due to a library exploding via cffi? 22:37:58 davazp: docbook2texi? 22:38:04 davazp: no, but the original version is in docbook 22:38:25 it even has make impnotes.texi 22:38:57 mcspiff: That might be plausible, but not many libraries monkey with default signal handling. 22:39:31 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 22:39:50 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 22:40:22 Trying to build cells-gtk, which really shouldn't be built on OS X 22:42:01 might be worth it to just setup sbcl + X on the the linux system and just remote in 22:42:28 stassats, fe[nl]ix: thanks 22:43:50 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:44:09 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:03 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:47 -!- davazp [n=user@207.Red-83-46-7.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:19 The_Doctor [n=Dalek@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:20 metawilm` [n=user@g225065218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:53:32 -!- p_l [i=plasek@89.248.166.201] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:39 -!- metawilm [n=user@e179152212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:55:10 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:00:16 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-053-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:03:35 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:04:05 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:36 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-jkdqxjvgyqpjqrht] has joined #lisp 23:09:31 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:10:04 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:25 -!- postamar [n=postamar@75-119-230-29.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 23:13:10 metawilm`: Ping? 23:15:42 pong 23:15:56 -!- decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:16:40 Just got your email. If it matters, the fix for that pathname bug is hot-patchable. 23:17:11 ah, you are Alastair 23:17:14 Yeah. 23:17:44 sounds good, i'm interested in the fix 23:17:53 The way I tested the fix in the first place was to (in-package :sb-impl) and then paste the revised function definition in. 23:18:18 btw do you prefer me to tell sbcl bugs in #lisp, or such tickets? 23:18:26 Tickets is great. 23:18:44 it creates nice history 23:19:09 Typically, if you discuss in #lisp, and it can't be fixed immediately, we'll just tell you to open a ticket or send mail to a list. 23:19:47 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-135-30.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:00 ok, next time i'll try irc first then 23:20:10 to save superfluous overhead 23:20:37 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-91-86.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:20:42 Even if it can be fixed immediately we might ask that you open a ticket. 23:21:38 And win32 as a platform is a little underrepresented for SBCL developers. 23:23:15 decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has joined #lisp 23:23:32 -!- The_Doctor [n=Dalek@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:24:26 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:46 Guthur pasted "CFFI array filling" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91221 23:26:23 i can't figure out why the float array wont work, it has random values in it 23:26:58 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:28:05 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:28:18 <_3b> Guthur: (setf pointer ...) ? 23:29:05 Guthur: _3b has the right of it. That's where your breakage is. 23:29:31 i actually had i feeling it might be 23:29:47 how to i dereference 23:30:00 Is DEREF an accessor? 23:30:19 <_3b> you are passing the actual float to copy-to-ffi in that case, so nothing to deref 23:30:23 Or... MEM-AREF? 23:30:41 Oof. 23:31:15 <_3b> you need to either pass a pointer, or arrange to pass a place somehow 23:31:25 ya i want to pass a place 23:31:30 So you need to pass a pointer (since you can't pass a PLACE because they aren't first-class), which is where your confusion lies. 23:32:05 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:33:12 And the reason the vertex case works might be that CFFI passes structs around by reference rather than value. 23:33:16 is it because it is getting passed by value then, and when its a struct it passes by reference 23:33:29 nyef ok 23:33:30 <_3b> passing the foreign-array and an index might be nicer than a pointer, and move the mem-aref into the copy-to-ffi 23:34:06 _3b ya thats the only way i believe, silly error on my part 23:34:37 <_3b> nah, there are lots of variantions, like pointer + offset, just pointer, etc 23:34:51 <_3b> possibly passing types along explicitly as well 23:35:10 prxq [n=mommer@e181181021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:35:41 -!- metawilm` [n=user@g225065218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:36:01 <_3b> or you could possibly do something with setf instead of generic functions 23:36:19 *_3b* can't think of a nice way to do that off hand though 23:36:45 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:46 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 23:37:46 ok cheers guys, i'll have a wee think, i should have realised it was a pass by value thing, doh 23:39:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-78-176.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:46 -!- decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has left #lisp 23:42:40 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:52:14 does anyone have cl-opengl running under OS X? 23:52:52 <_3b> cl-opengl should work, but cl-glut has problems on most recent osx 23:54:12 _3b i just changed it to a real pointer, which i suppose was my original intention 23:56:47 <_3b> cl-glut should work on single-threaded sbcl though (or any unthreaded lisp cl-glut runs on i guess) 23:57:06 -!- kmc [n=keegan@206-71-236-70.c3-0.nyw-ubr5.nyr-nyw.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:07 quodlibetor [n=user@pool-74-108-144-105.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:08 pfeyz [n=user@pool-74-108-144-105.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:30 or in the primordial thread elsewhere. 23:58:34 _3b i don't think any window manager works well threaded, cl-glfw needs to be all on a single thread anyway 23:58:51 <_3b> Guthur: osx adds complicated threading stuff 23:59:13 <_3b> Guthur: glut apparently can't be made to work from any thread except the original one 23:59:30 _3b same with glfw 23:59:34 <_3b> pkhuong: right, but you need a patched cl-glut for that :)