00:01:12 alama_ [n=alama@81.84.249.124] has joined #lisp 00:06:57 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:52 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 00:09:38 -!- alama [n=alama@81.84.249.124] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:12 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:25 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:34 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@84.46.57.25] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:12:38 any cl-opengl users around, I get a function nil is undefined with (gl:gen-buffers 1) 00:14:53 Guthur: look at the backtrace. 00:15:08 I suspect this function is not exported by your OpenGL impl. 00:16:20 its opengl 1.5 00:17:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:37 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 00:17:48 I'm sure it is 00:18:18 saikatc [n=saikatc@pool-74-96-130-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:37 davazp [n=user@165.Red-83-55-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:20 umm strange, it should be creating a 3.2 context 00:22:27 I don;t know what the equivalent is in CL, but in the C interface glGenBuffers will generally be in the glext.h header and not in the gl.h header on a lot of platforms, so that might explain things. Or there's the chance that you'll just have to get the function's address at run time. 00:22:30 rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.130] has joined #lisp 00:22:49 nvoorhies it would appear ralith is correct 00:23:09 glfw isn't giving me a 3.2 context 00:23:26 (gl:get-string :version) => 1.4 00:23:54 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:24:40 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 00:25:04 3.2's pretty recent. Might want to see if 3.1 works unless you need geometry shaders or the other minor features 00:25:27 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@88.73.213.162] has joined #lisp 00:27:04 nvoorhies 3.0 worked, must be something about 3.2 alright 00:28:29 actually though i asked for major-version 3 minor-version 0, it gave me 3.1, maybe i don't have 3.2 00:28:52 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.4.130] has quit [] 00:29:04 -!- arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.98.112] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:32 bugger, still doesn't work 00:29:32 Guthur: it looks like you neet to specify a function for get-proc-address. 00:29:47 sykopomp you getting the same error then? 00:29:59 sounds like it 00:30:14 Guthur: put (setf cl-opengl-bindings:*gl-get-proc-address* #'glfw:get-proc-address) in your init. 00:30:26 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.237.162] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:02 nvoorhies: the error is a product of the address not being available at runtime. 00:32:04 sykopomp, awesome, cheers 00:32:10 the backtrace makes this pretty clear 00:32:15 it does. 00:32:30 looks like it's just a cl-opengl not configured issue though. 00:32:33 wonder why that is. 00:32:37 ralith sorry ralith my cffi knowledge is not great 00:32:51 Guthur: there's no CFFI calls in the backtrace. 00:33:08 just intuitively named functions. 00:33:09 Ralith: ah, the addresses are generated as needed? 00:33:50 ro resolved rather 00:33:50 nvoorhies: I'm not entirely sure why they can't be bound in the traditional CFFI way. 00:34:01 redblue [i=star@ppp108.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:34:05 ralith thought it wasn't cffi 00:34:05 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.252] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:34:09 probably has something to do with the hardware involved, and backwards-compatibility, and stuff. 00:34:29 Guthur: the backtrace contains no CFFI calls. 00:34:29 christ 00:34:31 look at it yourself 00:34:36 they're provided for a reason :P 00:35:13 Ralith: he may not have known that you have to manually provide the get-proc-address function. 00:35:19 no need to curse the problem wasn't obvious to me because i don't use foreign function calls much 00:35:22 nvoorhies: anyway, presumably there's something more complex than dlsym going on. 00:35:34 sykopomp: I didn't either. 00:35:36 'snews to me 00:35:41 anyways 00:35:43 problem solved 00:35:44 !next 00:35:47 the backtrace is *very* readable :P 00:36:40 aye but i didn't know why it couldn't get a proc-address for that function, its the same set up as every other one which work fine 00:36:45 top two functions amount to 0. (make-lispy nil) and 1. (get-address "glGenBuffers") 00:36:55 obviously it's not the same :P 00:37:12 sykopomp: do you know *why* that has to be provided? 00:37:30 Ralith: extension access, afaik. 00:37:44 that just defers the question 00:37:51 how? 00:37:58 basically 00:38:17 why does anything, extension or otherwise, have an address that can't be obtained from the OS-provided dynamic linker? 00:38:48 Ralith: dunno. 00:39:02 :P 00:39:45 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:19 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:43 does anyone know a good graphing calculator with a lisp implementation on it? 00:40:48 :D 00:41:11 oh, that's a long story, but basically it's politics that resulted in the canonical way to get addresses being through a function provided by the OS-specific GL utilities, and then there's a chance the driver might know something about the hardware's mode that the OS doesn't, and thus said function is the only robust way to get the addresses 00:42:19 I was looking for a little bit 00:42:23 For instance there's the chance that a piece of hardware might support some feature but not want to expose it due to some state the driver's set in, and such 00:42:50 fatalnix1995: I think the HP50g has something vaguely lispy 00:42:53 I love mine 00:43:16 nvoorhies: huh. 00:43:17 okay. 00:43:20 And back around 1994/1995 windows implementations of opengl chose to do it the current way and that ended up sticking, more or less 00:43:28 ahh, windows 00:43:35 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 00:43:36 fucking up dynamic linking for the rest of us, as always. 00:43:40 I see. they should have one with CL or even ECL 00:43:58 Unless a more practical solution is to get an ipod touch with it or something? 00:44:16 I bet emacs could be put on an ipod touch 00:44:44 fatalnix1995: CL's kind of bulky for that kind of hardware. 00:44:59 -!- sellout [n=greg@75.25.126.88] has quit [] 00:45:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-80.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:45:36 Well, to be fair at least they supported the thing. That was pretty progressive at that point in time. 00:45:50 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:46:18 nvoorhies: ah yes, back in the good ol' days when microsoft was progressive and open to competition. 00:46:34 I remember those days. Then google came along and ruined everything with their evil monopoly. 00:46:56 they just wanted SGI to ship NT 3.5 on some machiness 00:47:18 then they wanted to make opengl and their own stuff to merge for a bit, then that died 00:48:24 emacs is bulky for ipod touch? 00:49:08 I guess the lack of keyboard is the biggest problem 00:49:34 ability to run code that isn't included in the binary is another 00:49:53 well, ssh is possible at least (I suppose) :) 00:50:39 there's a couple free ssh things that work ok 00:51:11 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:51:20 Hello all. 00:52:14 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:52:50 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:53:11 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:53:29 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:53:53 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:03 -!- ziga``` [n=user@89.142.216.249] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:14 -!- Ogedei` [n=user@e178229188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:17 -!- pjb [n=t@88.30.105.0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:58 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:57 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.197.18] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:03:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:04:08 /wii johnw 01:04:18 heh. 01:04:23 how would one create this C nasty #define BUFFER_OFFSET(i) ((char *)NULL + (i)) 01:04:38 Its used as a buffer offset 01:05:12 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.1.1"] 01:06:27 That's utterly bizarre. 01:06:35 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:08:41 nyef i know it has me scratching my head, its only to provide an offset but it needs to be a pointer 01:08:54 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:04 Oh, it's part of an interface spec? 01:10:14 I'd either lie and say it's an integer, or pass an int-sap. 01:10:15 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host137.190-231-49.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:00 nyef: opengl, int-sap? 01:12:41 sb-sys:int-sap is a method for creating an arbitrary pointer with a given integer representation. 01:13:05 Tordek [n=tordek@host137.190-231-49.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:13:37 lol googling, lisp int-sap brings up my own paste 01:14:11 googling int-sap lisp, even 01:14:59 i'll give int-sap a whirl 01:15:16 PhysicsPhil [n=PhysicsP@ppp118-210-145-122.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:42 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-177-91.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:32 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:28:38 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-159.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:31:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-80.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:35:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:37:33 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:38:34 Guthur: At one point I was dealing with an API that had a parameter which was declared to be a pointer type, and sometimes was, but other times was an enumerated integer type. 01:40:13 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 01:40:17 nyef: I'm dealing with something exactly like that right now. >:( 01:40:28 sykopomp: Oh? 01:40:50 Exactly like that to the point of being the same API? 01:40:59 nyef: I'm taking about openAL 01:41:04 I wish some turn of events would boost the boost developers to an entirely different part of the universe. 01:41:05 Ah. So, not the same API. 01:41:33 -!- PhysicsPhil [n=PhysicsP@ppp118-210-145-122.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 01:41:55 sykopomp pasted "probably don't grok it" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91153 01:42:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:42:06 actually, I'm probably misunderstanding it. 01:42:37 I'm trying to write a lisp-side al:source-unqueue-buffers :\ 01:43:59 but I think I've got it :) 01:44:29 Sounds like it leaves buf unchanged if it didn't "work", for whatever value "work" takes on. 01:44:38 yup. 01:45:04 I'm assuming in my "solution" that buf will be zero by default anyway. 01:45:17 You... might want to make sure. 01:45:19 caoliver: I'd like that to happen to whoever overloaded ! operator in G++ 01:45:21 sykopomp annotated #91153 "what I've got" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91153#1 01:45:54 nyef: well, I'm fairly sure that 0 is an invalid buffer. I guess I shouldn't assume that pointers created like that will default to 0?... 01:46:32 nyef: how stable is SBCL on win32? Especially with regards to FFI (w/ callbacks) and possibly threading 01:46:39 Hrm... I'd probably have used SB-ALIEN, (with-alien ((buf int)) (setf buf 0) (alien-funcall source-unqueue-buffers ... (addr buf)) ...) 01:47:03 nyef: if I were trying to get something that only worked on SBCL, I would've used sb-alien, too :) 01:47:03 sykopomp: the solution is infix syntax ala dylan 01:48:23 p_l: I haven't had any real trouble with callbacks, though I haven't really tested them. They're all cdecl, though, so if you want stdcall you need to hack something up possibly based on my original version which is also in I think graphic-forms. 01:48:36 bhiggins: thank you for the advice, I'll take it into account. I'll get to work on that solution right away! 01:48:54 nyef: (setf (cffi:mem-ref buf :uint) 0) should do it, I guess. 01:49:14 nyef: heh. Well, for now, my main target will be CCL, ACL and LW, but will see :) 01:49:16 sykopomp: i'll be hiring in 6 mos 01:49:37 p_l: Threading, though, is unimplemented. If you're going to interact with a system that wants to callback on another thread, I'd suggest making sure that your primary mutator thread doesn't get to run while the callback is live, and disable the GC for that time period as well. 01:49:44 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-111.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:50:24 hmm... that might be problematic... otoh, I'm trying to pass control from thread to thread with funcalls... ^^; 01:50:41 satiricon_ [n=david@190.51.75.44] has joined #lisp 01:50:52 (because .NET would obviously run in it's own threads) 01:51:14 we need a cool Lisp for .NET 01:51:20 yes, IronScheme 01:51:24 ... 1.2246467991473532d-16 is somewhat close to zero, isn't it? 01:51:24 but... 01:51:56 .NET 4.0 and the DLR is an attractive target for a new Lisp on .NET 01:52:26 bhiggins: maybe you should head to #clojure and talk them into porting clojure to the DLR :) 01:52:29 *p_l* is bridging .NET and native Lisp 01:52:35 sykopomp: they already are 01:52:44 bhiggins: good. They can keep going with that, then. 01:52:57 sykopomp: no 01:53:17 question.... 01:53:54 can you even skin multiple-inheritance on the .NET/Java runtime? 01:54:25 ABCL does it, so I guess probably. 01:55:20 whatever...no idea why people dick around with clojure when it's a lost cause because of lots of irritating 01:55:35 it's not like you can roll it into your average corp 01:55:44 dylan-it up 01:56:04 fine, i'm a troll 01:56:20 but i will continue to be the dylan/infix troll, but i'll shut up for now 01:56:24 no kidding? Never would've guessed. 01:56:31 lol 01:56:49 as for multiple inheritance, I'm going to wing it with interfaces ;-) 01:56:58 mixins? 01:57:32 not really. But Interfaces and some low-level CLR type hackery 01:57:44 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 01:58:16 the DLR already has the machinery for easy mixins within C# 01:58:16 otoh, I'm not implementing Lisp on .NET, just making some libraries for CL that are written in .NET... CL accessing them through CFFI 01:58:53 but forget about me...i want infix lisp 01:59:10 because methods in classes are brain-dead 01:59:18 and generic functions are right 02:00:27 bhiggins: you might try haskell, then ;-) 02:00:46 CL.Net wouldn't be all that bad 02:01:04 p_1: i'm a loser, i'm a syntax boy...case classes rock and solve a lot of the expression problem, but skin it on .NET 02:01:36 i don't know...i'm a PHB..i need something i can hire 02:01:38 nyef: thanks for the int-sap help earlier, its accepting it alright, not quite working yet but i think that might be another problem 02:03:17 Guthur: can you paste what you're doing? >_> 02:04:08 -!- davazp [n=user@165.Red-83-55-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:06:51 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:56 -!- satiricon [n=david@190.173.167.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:07 JAS415 [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:50 sykopomp: i'd rather it was working first though, hehe 02:09:08 its nothing special just the simple opengl starter stuff, but i'm trying to do it the interleaved VBO way, without using glinterleave 02:09:43 hm 02:09:50 more or less this http://www.opengl.org/wiki/VBO_-_just_examples 02:10:28 Guthur: http://3bb.cc/tutorials/cl-opengl/2d-sprites-part-2.html 02:11:52 ah cool, he used make-pointer, for that problem earlier 02:12:14 i considered that, but thought it wouldn't work, umm interesting, cheers sykopomp 02:12:22 -!- fihi09`` [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:36 fihi09`` [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:16 Guthur: also, (cffi:with-foreign-object (pointer :float 2) ...) 02:13:29 well, maybe. 02:15:30 that code will serve me nicely, i should have checked that out earlier 02:16:02 -!- demmeln 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-!- Eko_ [n=eko@76.252.40.44] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:58:29 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 03:59:17 -!- guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:00:07 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:58 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 04:01:42 hello! 04:02:24 I have a question, anybody knows a web page wich can be used as a lisp function reference? 04:04:18 satiricon_: the clhs is a cl reference 04:04:21 clhs cons 04:04:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_cons.htm 04:05:08 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:05:24 clhs? I am a total newbie... 04:06:05 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:06:10 thanks specbot 04:06:16 thats a nice one 04:06:37 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 04:06:41 Eko_ [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:13 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@94.216.47.183] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:07:15 sellout [n=greg@75.25.126.88] has joined #lisp 04:08:00 totally what I needed, thanks 04:08:32 satiricon_: you can also have emacs load it, with quick symbol reference 04:09:33 I did it, it shows the paramenters but it doesnt show the return values 04:11:58 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-249.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 04:14:35 -!- coyo[schol] [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:14:40 hooo, clhs = common lisp hyper spec, didnt knew that =P 04:14:47 coyo[schol] [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:02 -!- lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:15:25 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 04:16:51 picnik330 [n=nikita@77.79.136.123] has joined #lisp 04:18:20 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:30 Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 04:20:27 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:21:03 Hi all! I create variable with (setq xxx "somevalue"). If xxx is no longer needed, should I destroy it with (makunbound xxx)? 04:21:31 -!- donm [n=user@ip98-169-243-89.dc.dc.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:21:31 (makunbound 'xxx) 04:24:23 vng [n=user@123.20.55.213] has joined #lisp 04:25:50 -!- marioxcc` [n=user@200.92.183.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:27:40 df1 [n=bird@210.47.0.229] has joined #lisp 04:28:53 -!- df1 [n=bird@210.47.0.229] has left #lisp 04:30:15 -!- picnik330 [n=nikita@77.79.136.123] has quit ["    (xchat 2.4.5  )"] 04:32:34 -!- ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:38:27 my freaking god, lisp is totally beautifull! = | 04:39:19 and I still dont know much about it, it has ben love in the second (or third) sigth = P 04:41:27 satiricon_: there's hyperspec.el, which can use emacs-w3m to browse local (or remote) copy of HyperSpec 04:41:49 SLIME will even substitute current symbol as default in minibuffer 04:42:53 mmm, do you know about a nice guide to install a proper lisp enviroment? 04:43:36 cause Im a newbie in both lisp and emacs XD 04:43:44 http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ <--- a very simplistic, but distro-agnostic one 04:44:00 emcas looks very nice bur is not like other more simple and basic text editors 04:44:10 (there are probably better ones around here, but this one I know by heart) 04:44:26 nice, thanks ;) 04:44:33 for Emacs I recommend playing around with emacs tutorial and maybe looking at some screencasts (also SLIME movie) 04:45:48 -!- Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:48 well I have learn the basics, copy, paste, etc, and for slime I learned how to conpile a file and how to compile a function 04:46:07 but e-macs looks huge and very extensible 04:46:13 even hackish =P 04:46:13 satiricon_: then you are on good way 04:46:19 emacs, just emacs 04:46:26 emacs is certainly a huge hack, yes. 04:46:26 :) 04:46:29 ho, sorry XD 04:46:48 the name comes from Editor MACroS, and in beginning it was a giant hack written in one of the few useful esoteric languages... 04:47:12 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 04:47:24 GNU Emacs is nth implementation of it :)( 04:47:26 *:-) 04:47:46 one of the few esotheric languages? that souns dark, and terrible =P 04:47:54 forgot the name.. Not ITS, that was the platform. TC.. something? 04:48:47 teco 04:49:18 TECO, started out on PDP-1, EMACS appeared on ITS 04:49:37 ITS being "Incompatible Timesharing System" 04:49:53 TECO = Tape Editor and COrrector 04:49:56 XD 04:50:09 ITS was ... interesting :) 04:50:33 I still don't know how to fit a DNS resolver into it so I could connect it to modern internet, though 04:50:38 I have a question 04:50:50 (works fine as a server) 04:50:55 satiricon_: fire away 04:51:12 if I remove slime and the lisp compiler, the emacs instaled should stay I am rigth? 04:51:34 right 04:51:43 I am askink because I had a hard time compiling emacs for it to have ttf suport 04:51:56 asking* 04:51:59 ok great 04:52:09 ill do it now then 04:52:13 thanks 04:54:24 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.253.170] has joined #lisp 05:01:28 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:38 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 05:02:21 -!- lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@88.73.213.162] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:56 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:10:17 is there an easy way to use SBCL in a unix pipeline? 05:10:50 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 05:12:21 Eko_: echo '(+ 1 1)'|sbcl --noinform works here. 05:12:59 Though turning off the error handler might help 05:13:20 k, just wondering if there was another option that I couldn't find in the manpage to supress the *-d lines. I'll just grep-v them out. Thanks =) 05:13:49 yeah, I'm using the --disable-debugger switch too. 05:15:00 Eko_: --noprint maybe? 05:15:40 Axioplase: that works, but then I have to wrap the input with (format 't) whatever to get my output 05:16:01 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:16:40 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:49 which causes a few more quoting issues than I have just with echo. 05:17:13 -!- Eko_ is now known as Eko 05:17:58 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:42 Eko: You can use printf, then 05:22:06 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 05:22:08 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 05:22:19 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 05:22:50 p_l: printf? I don't see that in hyperspec. 05:27:36 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:34 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:10 -!- alama_ [n=alama@81.84.249.124] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:30:46 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 05:33:16 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CEB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:36 Eko: in place of echo 05:35:35 or, to be exact, a combination of heredocs, echo and printf might be the best (but that's more for a script) 05:35:57 hmm. 05:36:07 I forgot bash even had a printf. 05:36:10 cool, thanks =) 05:38:23 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 05:39:38 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:39:46 khumba [n=khumba@S0106001e2ac2d18e.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:25 -!- umopepisdn` is now known as pragma_ 05:40:40 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CEB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:41:01 -!- pragma_ is now known as umopepisdn` 05:41:50 Good morning! 05:41:57 Hello, beach! 05:42:09 Eko: printf is required by either POSIX or X/Open 05:42:27 yeah, it's there, I just completely forgot about it. 05:42:33 so quite certainly UNIX98 mandates it 05:43:35 _3b [i=foobar@70.112.214.100] has joined #lisp 05:43:38 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:43:46 hi, in ASDF, I cannot use the same name for both a module and a file. It will signal duplicate-names error. Is there a particular reason to do that? 05:43:51 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 05:44:00 gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-75-7-4-247.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@75.25.126.88] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:24 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 05:53:27 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:43 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has joined #lisp 05:57:01 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441246.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:59:21 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:03:26 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-217-202.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:03:41 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:04:12 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:04:46 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:04:53 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:05:26 maus [n=maus@123.20.0.204] has joined #lisp 06:05:47 Good afternoon! 06:06:06 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:06:20 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 06:06:20 good night! 06:07:01 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-75-7-4-247.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:07:12 timchen1` [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 06:07:13 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 06:08:49 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp108.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 06:10:31 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:11:11 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:15 jawhite [n=jolyonwh@203.143.170.201] has joined #lisp 06:12:30 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:12:37 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:12:51 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 06:15:00 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:18:57 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 06:19:11 good... I guess morning 06:19:37 0613 is a little too late for "Good -WTF are you doing at this hour!?" 06:20:34 here is 3:20 am 06:21:01 and I am tryng to get slime rigth, my head is about to explode 06:21:16 i started at 8 am with the programing XD 06:21:42 then you have 30 hours of somethjing 06:21:48 something of emacs 06:21:56 in 4 hours and I ll be programming for 24 hours 06:22:03 why does any human do emacs 06:22:19 because Slime 06:22:55 No emacs and slime are for studing purpouses 06:23:12 I programm in java and php as my job 06:23:19 There are other major reasons to use emacs 06:23:35 Doing emacs seems a bit too extreme, though 06:23:50 gonzojive_ [n=red@75.7.4.247] has joined #lisp 06:24:07 ok I have been able to setup a fairly decent lisp enviroment =P 06:24:15 satiricon_: what problems with slime do you have? 06:24:18 "my first lisp enviroment" =P 06:24:25 none rigth now 06:24:33 I solved the allready =D 06:24:40 Im just learning 06:24:56 so I have newbie problems XD 06:25:15 anyways is to late for me 06:25:23 going to get some sleep 06:25:49 bye, and thanks for the help (for those who helped) 06:26:44 -!- satiricon_ [n=david@190.51.75.44] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:30:31 gigamonkey [n=user@99.50.125.18] has joined #lisp 06:31:58 milanj [n=milan@93.86.213.211] has joined #lisp 06:32:17 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.213.211] has quit [Client Quit] 06:37:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:40:09 redblue [i=star@ppp054.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:40:47 rdd`` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:41:15 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:42:15 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:42:15 -!- dmm_ [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:42:15 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:42:15 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06:58:27 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 06:58:43 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:03 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 07:03:43 -!- umopepisdn` is now known as pragma_ 07:06:26 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:06:27 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 07:12:39 that was some perseverance from a newbie 07:17:09 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:18:50 -!- drwho [n=drwho@98.225.208.183] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:21:14 what newbie? 07:21:26 dylan 07:21:40 when do we get our imperative lisp on the jvm 07:21:56 dave moon says we can have our cake and eat it too 07:25:15 the cake is a lie. Q.E.D. 07:25:43 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066867.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:45 as for imperative lisp on JVM, you have ABCL and Clojure... 07:25:46 good morning 07:25:52 then everybody except ITS dorks and does nothing 07:26:22 CL is more imperative than Clojure..bahah 07:26:44 CL is just an imperative language 07:26:51 holycow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 07:28:17 Is there a non-imperative lisp, even 07:29:11 some would say that even Haskell is impertative 07:29:25 you gotta go Prolog to go pure non-imperative 07:30:00 but clojure is non-mutable by design 07:30:16 which i guess means nothing ag 07:30:25 against impertativeness 07:30:35 -!- bhiggins [n=bmarsell@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [] 07:30:42 Silly humans and their notions of causality 07:30:45 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:32:55 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-156-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 07:33:36 minion: awake? 07:33:36 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``awake''. 07:33:37 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.50.125.18] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:33:46 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-111.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:37:22 Krystof_ [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 07:47:04 ASau [n=user@host168-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:49:48 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:50:11 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-C2F2E195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 07:54:13 PROGV: "If too few values are supplied, the remaining symbols are bound and then made to have no value." 07:54:13 tcr, memo from hefner: profiler output - http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/tmp/elp-results.txt 07:55:22 Isn't that bad choice of wording? E.g. I don't think it's supposed to say that BOUNDP will return T on those symbols. 07:57:04 minion: memo for hefner: Is that with my optimization changeset of 2009-11-22? Did that changeset make emacs less sluggish for you? 07:57:04 Remembered. I'll tell hefner when he/she/it next speaks. 07:59:31 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:03:06 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:39 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:08:19 good morning 08:08:26 hello mvilleneuve 08:10:24 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Success] 08:11:09 Ogedei` [n=user@85.178.219.236] has joined #lisp 08:11:13 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 08:11:25 -!- holycow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has quit [Success] 08:13:56 holycow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 08:20:39 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 splittist [n=dmurray@127-167.79-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.252] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 sacker [n=sacker@c-69-180-204-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@67.170.39.104] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 hdurer__ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-igtiklfrjndwutcm] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 Bucciarati [n=buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:12 anekos [n=anekos@pl1218.nas924.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:21:58 -!- holycow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:22:14 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:22:28 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 08:22:40 -!- attila_lendvai is now known as Guest34402 08:23:32 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 08:27:26 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:27:28 prxq_ [n=mommer@78.51.160.165] has joined #lisp 08:29:05 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:06 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051018218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:29:37 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 08:30:13 -!- jawhite [n=jolyonwh@203.143.170.201] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 08:30:21 When will we have the lisp imperative? 08:30:56 what's that? 08:31:25 Is that anything like a biological imperative? 08:31:29 Like humping? 08:31:34 If so, I'm hoping very soon. 08:32:43 hi frodef. 08:32:55 Is that the unpublished Robert Ludlum book? 08:32:58 Did you settle with your lispworks find-definition woes? 08:35:22 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:36:19 -!- rdd`` is now known as rdd` 08:38:18 tcr: yes, I hacked find-definitions and it works fine now. 08:40:18 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:35 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 08:41:53 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:42:30 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f755912.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:59 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:31 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:48 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.241] has joined #lisp 09:13:19 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.252] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:13:44 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.252] has joined #lisp 09:14:47 crazybyte [n=crzp@unaffiliated/crazypenguin/x-000001] has joined #lisp 09:16:22 Hello! Can I find the source code for the basic function from Lisp in the package? What I want to see is how reverse function is implemented in Lisp. Thank you! 09:17:07 crazybyte: you might find sacla interesting. 09:17:23 sacla? 09:17:28 what do you mean by that? 09:17:52 crazybyte: If you're using SBCL, and slime, and have the sbcl source available, you can simply press M-. on symbols from the CL package and have slime bring you to their definiiton 09:17:57 same for cll 09:17:59 ccl 09:18:07 i see 09:18:12 well I use clisp 09:18:20 but I will take a look 09:18:23 thank you! 09:18:56 pjb [n=t@88.30.126.126] has joined #lisp 09:18:56 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sacla+lisp 09:19:40 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:43 LOL 09:19:45 yeah 09:19:48 you're right 09:19:52 what version of lisp/scheme for ubuntu do i need to do SICP examples? 09:20:04 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.55.213] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:20:31 infidel2: Common Lisp works well too: http://eli.thegreenplace.net/category/programming/lisp/sicp/ 09:20:47 sicp is scheme 09:20:50 infidel2: also see: http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages 09:20:54 sicp is nothing about scheme. 09:21:06 guaqua: see that url you too. 09:21:12 already did 09:21:21 you _can_ do it in other languages 09:21:23 the intro said it would use a dialetic of lisp called scheme 09:21:41 Only for the examples and exercises, but the text is not about scheme. 09:21:42 i currently dont any lisp/scheme 09:21:48 It also uses English, but it's not about English! 09:22:07 splittist, I was in a hurry and forgot the usual habit of looking it up on Google. Thanks! :) 09:22:34 crazybyte: no worries. I've always wanted to use lmgtfy (: 09:22:49 infidel2: I suggest to install drscheme 09:23:12 IIRC in the latest versions of DrScheme, there's even a SICP language mode. 09:23:21 wouldnt i get more out of it if i use scheme though, it says the reason it chose it is because of the way it helps you understand concepts 09:23:30 cool 09:23:33 Indeed. 09:23:36 splittist, well yes. it's a cool anti laziness tool for lazy newbies (i fell into the same group unfortunately) 09:23:39 :) 09:24:02 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:24:26 hello lispers 09:24:48 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78.72.33.106] has joined #lisp 09:25:02 pjb: I'd suggest not to tell people to do sicp in common lisp; they'll only learn to write sicp-scheme in CL. Something they actually should relearn once they go from sicp to cl. 09:25:12 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:23 (and when in rome...) 09:25:24 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:25:25 tcr: ok. 09:25:32 infidel2: although you'll only know that you really know when you can do it all in something other than scheme. (See also LiSP) 09:25:42 tcr: or I'd advise them pseudo scheme :-) 09:25:55 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:26:14 do we have an interface on git implemented in CL ? 09:28:52 -!- Krystof_ [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:36:24 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:36:28 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:40:00 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:41:06 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@71.197.180.162] has quit [] 09:41:12 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:41:26 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:48:23 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:00:20 kiuma: I don't think so, there is some interest in it though 10:00:28 kiuma: go ahead and write it :) 10:05:10 -!- cmeow [i=cmeow@207.192.71.173] has quit 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[n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 12:19:52 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:19:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 12:20:06 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:24:10 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:24:53 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CE1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:52 So I was just bitten by a typo in an initarg passed to make-instance. Is there a recommended way how to catch those? 12:26:05 Is there an easy way to declare to slime that my macro FOO should be idented for example the same as Cl:CASE? 12:26:43 tcr: if you pass an unknown initarg don't you get an error? 12:27:18 frodef: M-x find-library RET cl-indent 12:27:18 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 12:27:22 look at the bottom of that file 12:28:06 tcr: ah, thanks. 12:28:16 tcr: don't stick &allow-other-keys into any applicable initialization methods 12:28:16 frodef: the signature for make-instance must be ... &key &allow-other-keys 12:28:32 Krystof: So I have to retype all the :initargs in the initialize-instance method? 12:28:36 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:28:45 tcr: no, only those you use 12:29:14 the keywords accepted by make-instance are the union of those accepted by all applicable initialization methods 12:29:38 but won't make-instance pass those :initargs down to i-i? 12:30:15 splittist: that doesn't imply that the whole object allocation and initializion protocol must remain silent, does it? 12:30:21 Hmm. "If any of the initialization arguments has not been declared as valid, an error of type error is signaled." 12:30:29 clhs 7.1.2 12:30:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ab.htm 12:30:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A10E7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:30:55 tcr: yes, but so what? 12:30:56 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:03 davazp [n=user@165.Red-83-55-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:32 Clearly I must be missing something 12:31:35 initialize-instance in general behaves as if it has an &allow-other-keys, basically, but make-instance does valid key checking 12:32:08 and you declare keys as having validity by defining initialize-instance methods (and :initargs in defclass, and a couple of other ways) 12:32:44 I'll study 7.1 later when I have some time, thanks. 12:32:46 what you're missing is that you called make-instance, not initialize-instance, and make-instance checks the arguments it is given 12:34:15 I don't think it's that what I'm missing; it passes all those down to i-i which does not complain even though not all of them are named as &key parameters which I did not know 12:35:23 initialize-instance the generic function has &key &allow-other-keys, so initialize-instance the generic function accepts all keywords 12:35:36 Ah 12:35:37 but MAKE-INSTANCE CHECKS FOR INITARG VALIDITY 12:36:09 right :-) works perfectly now 12:36:37 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:37:12 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:01 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:40:26 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp054.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:41:40 -!- atash [n=chatzill@aa.32.364a.static.theplanet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:43:12 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:33 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:45:58 atash [n=chatzill@155.69.168.17] has joined #lisp 12:52:05 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 12:55:05 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:02:34 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:05:35 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.220.248] has joined #lisp 13:11:32 -!- spacebat1 [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-90-226.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:12:06 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:03 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-58-84.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:52 -!- atash [n=chatzill@155.69.168.17] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.14/2009090216]"] 13:15:42 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:07 jawhite [n=jolyonwh@203-158-55-225.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:21:05 -!- huangjs [n=user@192.51.54.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:23:02 SIMONA-PC [n=SIMONA-P@92.27.0.110] has joined #lisp 13:24:06 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-249.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:27 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-249.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:27:09 -!- Guest34402 is now known as attila_lendvai 13:28:46 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.161.165] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:47 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 13:32:43 tcr: no, I did that profiling run before I got your message and updated slime. I'm sure it's better now, I'll let you know the next time I restart my emacs session. =p 13:32:43 hefner, memo from tcr: Is that with my optimization changeset of 2009-11-22? Did that changeset make emacs less sluggish for you? 13:33:15 benny [n=benny@i577A18FE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:17 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:37:28 In retrospect, I should have implement it slightly differently so it's easier cacheable. It's not hard to do it now, but it's fast enough for me so far 13:37:30 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:37:34 Good afternoon! 13:37:35 implemented 13:38:35 Hey plage. Is LaBRI bidding for ILC2011? 13:38:42 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:48 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:41:10 alama [n=alama@a81-84-249-124.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 13:42:04 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:42:49 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:42:58 splittist: I considered it. 13:44:24 ... for about 1.3 seconds. then you said no 13:45:19 katchaFire [n=katcha@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:52 plage: would it be possible to enthuse the administrators ("I hear Paris III/Sophia Antipolis/appropriate bete noir are bidding. It was at Cambridge and MIT the last two times. I understand it's used as a factor in the X rankings...") to take the actual burden of doing everything? 13:49:07 fe[nl]ix: No, I might still do it (unless it's too late). 13:49:32 splittist: Yes, that would be possibler. 13:49:50 what are the dates of ILC again? 13:53:18 I don't think that the date is fixed already, but bids for hosting it should arrive at 2010-01-04 13:53:42 http://www.international-lisp-conference.org/2011/index.html 13:53:44 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CEB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:10 "If your bid is incomplete at that time, please send what you have" 13:55:34 -!- ASau [n=user@host168-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 13:57:09 I need to know the dates because I might be away during that period. 13:57:45 Would that be a good or a bad thing? I would imagine the bid gets to suggest the dates. 13:58:11 We need to make it really more common the use of usenet to transport videos, both 1-1 and 1-* or even *-*... 13:58:42 ziga` [n=user@89.142.216.249] has joined #lisp 13:58:46 splittist: Possibly, but I will likely be away from January to June of 2011 13:59:27 then bid to do it in august or september ;) 13:59:43 Or to do it where you'll be! 13:59:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-3-76.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 14:00:01 .o(antarctica) 14:00:15 i'll go to antarctica 14:00:18 It's time tourism to Antarctica be developed... 14:00:19 that would be ... cool 14:00:28 pjb: Good plan, that would be Sài Gòn. 14:00:38 A nice place! 14:00:42 brentb [n=buescher@71.181.168.227] has joined #lisp 14:00:47 Very much so! 14:01:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-3-76.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:39 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CEB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:03:56 plage: that was my other suggestion! 14:04:29 splittist: concerning the organization, that would be, er, interesting. 14:05:22 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 14:05:48 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.106.70] has joined #lisp 14:06:39 I read something about a local company to be created to handle finances 14:06:46 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-jihaezptnqhhpfou] has joined #lisp 14:08:45 Lots of events in Vietnam. http://www.iist.unu.edu/sefm2009/ , for example. 14:08:52 rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.189.93] has joined #lisp 14:11:27 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:39 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.22.70] has joined #lisp 14:14:43 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:14:48 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:16:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-3-76.client.stsn.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:16:04 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:16:04 -!- brentb 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kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:17 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-39-104.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:29 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91.115.183.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:23:55 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:24:14 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 14:24:44 Younder [n=jthing@95.34.200.84] has joined #lisp 14:26:42 G'morning all. 14:26:55 hello nyef 14:31:07 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441246.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:33:29 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:45 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:52 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:00 colin_ [n=colin@118-169-47-198.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:16 hi nyef 14:37:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-3-76.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:10 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 14:39:05 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:42:50 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:45:25 how do I elegantly get first 3 items of a list into a list? 14:45:33 there are 4 items in that list 14:46:02 clhs butlast 14:46:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_butlas.htm 14:47:17 ignas: That was for you. 14:48:46 yes, thank you 14:48:55 Alternately, consider using SUBSEQ. 14:49:38 aaahhh the specbot is a bot!! XDDD 14:50:05 anyone can use it? 14:50:14 clhs eq 14:50:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm 14:50:23 nice.... 14:52:52 *nyef* discovers M-x set-frame-name in emacs. 14:56:54 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:32 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:00:12 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:00:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@75.25.126.88] has quit [] 15:00:57 aze [n=azeaze@78-22-118-207.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 15:01:29 -!- wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:01:31 -!- jawhite [n=jolyonwh@203-158-55-225.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 15:01:34 -!- aze [n=azeaze@78-22-118-207.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:39 aze [n=azeaze@78-22-118-207.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 15:01:48 -!- aze [n=azeaze@78-22-118-207.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:08 decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has joined #lisp 15:03:34 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.134.66.143] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:05 ejs [n=eugen@27-98-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:18 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:59 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:11 isn't there a function like read-text-file ? do I have to create an ad-hoc function ? 15:07:51 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:07:51 sorry, you're stuck writing the ad-hoc 4-liner 15:07:51 there is no such function. 15:07:56 clhs read-sequence 15:07:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm 15:11:05 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:33 thx plage , I was using a loop for with read-line 15:11:34 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:12:25 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:53 Heh. I have a function to read a file of octets. 15:12:54 hefner, I already wrote that funcion, I thought it was useless 15:13:46 rares1 [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:16 I've them both, but was only thinking that there was already something inside implementation 15:14:29 nothing particularly critical 15:14:43 kiuma: there's read-file-into-string in alexandria 15:14:57 tcr thx 15:15:01 -!- rares1 [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 15:15:29 kiuma: Do you also have the function which will create a displaced array representing a subsequence of another array based on position and length? 15:16:42 What do you need it for? 15:17:03 byef http://home.chello.no/~jthing/games/tictactoe.html has a example 15:17:08 nyef, no 15:17:10 sequence-iterators may be appropriate :-) 15:17:27 I'm developing an on line book editor 15:17:27 *online 15:17:34 tcr: It's for extracting a meaningful section of data from an in-memory image of a file. 15:18:06 Say I have an ELF file, and I want to look at the symbol table. 15:18:11 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:18:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 15:18:24 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:37 it's a one-dimensional byte blob? 15:18:42 Yeah. 15:18:55 kiuma: How does that differ from a word processor? 15:18:58 Or, really, array-element-type blob. 15:19:15 well you could use dosequence on it which takes :start and :end parameter 15:19:49 ... Do these sequence iterators support random access? 15:20:39 it depends I guess, I'm not sure what you want exactly 15:20:39 And what's the actual payoff over using this lightweight layer over standard array functionality? 15:20:42 plage, it's an html editor 15:20:46 maus [n=maus@222.253.99.233] has joined #lisp 15:21:30 nyef: I guess not much, I'm not sure how lightweight displaced arrays are :-) 15:21:31 plage, It allows to create a book with chapters and paragraphs 15:22:00 If memory serves, on SBCL they turn out to be about as heavy as any other non-simple array access. 15:22:14 sounds perfectly lightweight 15:22:31 the editor will be the dijit.Editor from dojotoolkit plus a plugin to link site images (showing them in thumbnails) 15:22:41 Oh, perfectly lightweight would involve simple arrays instead, but then you pay the price of copying the damned things. 15:22:55 and with aqnother plugin to insert CL snippets 15:22:56 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 15:22:59 no that may be where sequence iterators come in 15:23:17 milanj [n=milan@109.93.23.226] has joined #lisp 15:23:41 as editors go, the linked list gap editor in Climacs is the most inovative 15:24:03 so, not very much except that the book can be edited and published directly online 15:24:07 Younder: I copied the method Emacs uses. It is a classic. 15:24:41 Younder: But Flexichain probably has a better protocol than Emacs does (he says without having seen that of Emacs). 15:24:55 plage, it does 15:25:17 Younder: and I don't know where the "linked list" aspect comes in. 15:26:10 plage, It uses a doubly linked list of buffers, which are gap editors 15:26:41 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:26:45 That's possible. 15:27:36 plage, http://common-lisp.net/project/flexichain/ see the PDF 15:28:00 ... You know what'd be neat? If freenode adopted the old mud concept of copyover for their ircds. Bounce the server without losing any of the connections. 15:28:05 Younder: I believe you. And I wrote that. 15:28:16 what's so great about flexichain? 15:28:26 constant time random access? 15:30:07 ziga`: That would be hard in the worst case, but if you believe that a user doesn't do quite random access, then yes, constant time. 15:30:40 ziga`: In addition, very compact representation no matter what objects are stored (though currently all objects are the same size). 15:30:53 so for short stuff, doubly linked list is not much worse? 15:31:19 aha 15:31:33 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:31:35 ziga`: It's a linked list of buffers, so if you have thousands of buffers, that might be a problem. 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[n=user@165.Red-83-55-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:14 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:20 -!- Trystam is now known as Tristam 18:07:05 ejs [n=eugen@68-20-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 18:08:44 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 18:09:52 -!- ejs [n=eugen@68-20-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:14:37 grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:15:47 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:50 -!- syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:37 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:27 You know what'd be nice? If loop for-as-across bound -places- instead of values. 18:23:33 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C859.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:01 I like it. 18:24:16 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:00 loop for x being the vector-places across foo do ... is just one define-loop-path away 18:26:51 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.60.73.85] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:57 It's odd... I have absolutely no trouble relying on random SBCL behavior, but I have this marked disinclination to monkey with the standard semantics of LOOP. 18:26:59 -!- Xof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.33 18:27:29 if anyone can do the website, then please do; otherwise I'll get to it Monday or Wednesday 18:29:03 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:30:05 jmbr [n=jmbr@250.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:30:18 *nyef* waits for the git mirror to sync up. 18:31:52 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:18 Xof: i would volunteer to produce current binaries for x86_64 if there is interest 18:37:02 How odd, I seem to be completely destroying my control stack and have no idea how. 18:38:21 what is the default SBCL_ARCH for MacOS? 18:38:31 ppc 18:38:48 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 18:38:49 just kidding. I think it's x86-64 now. 18:38:56 ... We should make a 68k MacOS port! 18:39:30 i had an issue with sbcl arrays not being collected (see: http://paste.lisp.org/display/89710 18:39:36 Okay, broke it down a bit. A single call to (bordeaux-fft:windowed-fft *unpacked-wav-data* 240 480) does it. 18:39:37 but this seems to also happen with arrays /3 size 18:39:59 is there a size limit that i can keep to so i know they will be collected 18:40:38 And stack frames 3-259 (as far as I checked) are all for (LABELS BORDEAUX-FFT::AUX). 18:40:52 thanks. what is the proper name for the OS X these days? 18:40:53 ... And bordeaux-fft is only supposed to work for lengths that are powers of two, isn't it? 18:41:50 windowed-fft is smarter, although I'm ashamed to admit I don't remember what the parameters mean off the top of my head 18:41:55 nyef: have you tried matlisp? It has a binding to a fortran fft 18:42:39 prxq: That would be a violation of rule one: Reduce dependencies vigorously. 18:42:57 nyef: dosequence does that 18:43:03 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:43:05 -!- Guest50434 is now known as pkhuong 18:44:53 ..but a window size of 480 is probably wrong. 18:45:30 hefner: Yeah, 480 not being a power of two is definately wrong. 18:45:58 At the same time, I'm unimpressed by the lack of a simple logcount of the length parameter. 18:46:47 yeah, I suck. 18:47:31 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:47:55 if you really want a 480-wide window, I guess it could just round the FFT size up to the next power of two. 18:47:56 I wouldn't go that far, but I also wouldn't call bordeaux-fft particularly resistant to user error. 18:48:17 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:27 *hefner* doesn't want to think hard enough to evaluate how bad of an idea that is 18:48:36 The 480-wide window was merely convenient. 18:48:47 Rounding up is fine. 18:48:53 Rounding down might even be fine. 18:49:06 I just have to re-work-out what I'm doing. 18:49:09 manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6CE1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:36 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:55:39 oh, logcount, you clever thing. I had to think about that for a second. 18:56:08 Well, it'd be logcount or (zerop (logand x (1- x)). 18:56:23 -!- NNshag [i=user@82.65.68.127] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:28 The latter of which is more likely to be efficient, I'll admit. 18:59:46 clhs subseq 18:59:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 19:05:19 NNshag [i=user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-144-32.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:28 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:49 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-126-40.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:06:16 *hefner* still doesn't understand how anyone can stand to code CL and stick below 80 character lines 19:06:56 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:54 Why is sb-introspect a contrib? 19:08:34 Some of its functionality could be used in DESCRIBE, for instance. 19:09:31 -!- pjb [n=t@126.Red-88-30-126.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:36 I think sb-introspect started out with the source-definition for which it probably makes sense to be in a contrib 19:09:37 pjb [n=t@126.Red-88-30-126.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:32 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:22 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-65-18.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:13 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@79.126.200.181] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:04 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:19:29 does SBCL interpret the scope of an optimize declaration as applying to the whole containing function? (it seems to do so in the example in front of me anyway) 19:20:35 (or if not the containing function, at least some unspecified level of granularity that may be larger than expected) 19:23:29 *hefner* would be a happier hacker if he didn't waste time trying to quiet irrelevant optimizer notes in setup code before the part that I really want to run fast 19:23:57 hefner: do you have an example? SLIME will highlight the location of the note too. 19:24:27 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-208-149-160.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:33 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:01 hefner pasted "wah make it stop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91170 19:29:11 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:42 Umm... It occurs to me that silently upgrading the length of the FFT window is possibly the wrong thing to do. 19:30:33 hefner: fairly certain that the scope of the declare after a let* includes the bindings. 19:31:17 pkhuong: only for bound declarations 19:31:25 the optimize is a free declaration though 19:31:46 clhs 3.3.4.1 19:31:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_cda.htm 19:31:55 there's a cute example of an inline declaration in the clhs where it applies to the call inside the let body, but not calls in the bindings, and.. yes, tcr groks 19:32:21 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:24 *hefner* was always hazy on precisely how this worked, hastily started reading the hyperspec a few minutes ago 19:32:32 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-111.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:34:22 hefner: you probably want to declare fft-size fixnum, since that will affect the performance of the loop. 19:36:22 nyef: The alternative, I guess, is providing a separate keyword if you want a window size different than the fft size, and only accepting a power of two fft size. Or, my favorite, leaving it as it is except to error if it isn't a power of two. 19:36:40 Yeah, I'd go with the error. 19:37:21 tcr: so does that mean SBCL is doing the wrong thing? 19:37:21 Since you'll figure out what went wrong the first time you run your program, and you won't have to worry about the frequency of your bins silently being changed from what you originally figured it to be. 19:38:13 (When I scaled up from 480 samples to 512 samples, the frequency step changed from 33.3 Hz to 31.25 Hz.) 19:38:31 At least, I think it did. 19:38:45 I'm still not 100% certain on the math here, even the noncomplex stuff. 19:39:02 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:13 hefner: unless you have some optimize proclaimation (or policy restriction), seems so to me 19:39:19 Good evening! 19:39:24 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:32 Oh! Does it make sense to normalize the spectral energy in each bin by the number of bins? 19:39:39 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:40:16 When I ran a 64-element fft over the same data as the 512-element one, the largest maximum amplitude recorded was about 1/4 the value. 19:40:41 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:27 Yes, that's a known anomaly of the DFT. 19:41:51 nyef: If you take the DFT and then the inverse, you get all values multiplied by some factor. 19:42:40 that's one hell of an inverse 19:42:59 The idea is that absolute values are unimportant. 19:43:16 But that's only true if you maintain the size of the window. 19:43:43 Yeah, and I'm looking at comparing the results from two different window sizes over the same period. 19:44:11 -!- araujo [n=araujo@190.38.49.150] has quit [Client Quit] 19:44:11 (Which means I'll get a 4/1 ratio of frames.) 19:44:30 nyef: This is not fresh in my mind, but since S[0] is the sum of the s[i], then it seems to make sense to divide by the size. 19:44:32 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:45:09 Okay, so that's total spectral energy in S[0]? 19:46:00 Did I say 64? I meant 128. 19:46:12 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:46:26 nyef: Again, it's not energy, but amplitude. And S[0] is just the first element of the "frequency domain" vector, which is defined to be the sum of the "temporal domain" vector elements. 19:47:22 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:47:34 Okay, thanks. 19:48:01 (Clearly, I've been reading too many things that say "energy", and not enough that say "amplitude", and am thus getting them confused.) 19:48:25 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:48:51 I guess my next problem is figuring out how to display these things. 19:49:06 sometimes it doesn't matter much what you call it, but it might if you want to compute things like SNR. 19:49:32 Good point, and I might get into that at some point. 19:49:41 nyef: Traditionally, with two diagrams, one showing amplitude and another showing phase. 19:49:58 satiricon_ [n=david@190.51.99.134] has joined #lisp 19:50:07 Mmm... I sortof want amplitude over time for each bin. 19:50:31 nyef: Ah, then you want a time-frequency diagram 19:50:38 Probably. 19:50:56 *hefner* wonders if he ever released the moderately crappy code behind http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/spectro.jpg 19:50:58 Unfortunately, the output tools I have are very close to useless. 19:51:05 nyef: On the x axis, you have time, on the y axis frequency, and you use levels of gray to show amplitude. The phase is not shown then. 19:51:40 Right, and I'm minutes away from trying to figure out what the scale has to be and just dumping a bloody PNM. 19:51:44 brentb [n=buescher@71.181.168.227] has joined #lisp 19:52:40 hefner: I would, but in this "community" it is a bit risky, because people who couldn't even start to do anything similar will call your thing "shit", "flawed design", etc. 19:52:41 ... Except that since I'm working with existing samples I can scale against the maximum amplitude across the entire set of frames. 19:52:42 (probably not, because I'd have had to strip out all the bogus experimental data-fudgery out, and I'm certain I didn't do that) 19:53:05 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:17 beach: it's like that everywhere 19:53:57 brentb: I am forced to believe you because I haven't looked elsewhere. 19:53:57 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.243.157] has joined #lisp 19:54:03 of course, sometimes the nay-sayers are right 19:54:23 -!- prxq [n=mommer@78.51.160.165] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:54:59 prxq [n=mommer@f051160165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:03 beach: that's only because they don't understand that if they want a toy to do [foo], they are expected to write their own. That's my philosophy anyway, and seldom claim anything I've done is for public consumption except in moments of exceptional hubris. 19:56:01 brentb: My point is, given that someone has code written that *might* be useful to someone else. Should that person have to make a choice between releasing it and possibly helping someone else, but be faced with an avalanche of criticism, or not realase it so as to avoid such devastating criticism. 19:56:55 -!- satiricon [n=david@190.51.75.44] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:57:10 is criticism bad? 19:57:17 if it feels bad, ignore it. 19:57:34 stassats: It depends on how bad it is. Constructive criticism is good. 19:57:36 -!- arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.112.123] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:32 koollman: I agree, though some people might not be able to handle it. Worse, people (usually newbies) that see such criticism might get the wrong idea. 19:58:40 being afraid of criticism is a poor excuse 19:58:48 oh, harden up and release it 19:59:05 brentb: I recommend the same. 19:59:23 yup. Also, if you don't release it, you can get the praises. Who knows... it might actually be nice software. One should consider that ;) 20:00:25 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-126-40.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:38 I am very concerned about newbies who show up here and get treated to "Common Lisp is a piece of crap, bloated, 20th-century, ..." 20:00:44 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 20:01:15 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:10 beach: i can imagine who you have in mind 20:02:13 The "inner circle" can handle that pretty well, but I think it is an insult to the designers, who did a fine job, and it definitely sends the wrong message to newbies, because they do not get the part where "except other languages are even crappier". 20:02:43 prxq: I am no good about remembering names, so I usually don't have anybody in particular in mind. 20:02:48 things that are in tension if not contradictory like "bloated" and "lacks libraries to do useful things" 20:02:52 beach: 20th-century makes it sound newer than it is :p 20:03:17 Madsy: Are you suggesting Babbage invented Lisp? 20:03:34 lisp has always been next century 20:03:42 God invented Lisp, all else is the work of man? 20:03:52 when I complain about CL (or CL implementations, or typical CL style) being bloated, it is completely orthogonal to library availability 20:03:57 beach: Not at all. 20:04:03 I wouldn't actually call common lisp bloated by contemporary standards 20:04:39 hefner: Actually, I can't remember your saying anything like that at all, and certainly, you were not the person that I was thinking of. 20:05:17 francogrex [n=user@91.177.159.156] has joined #lisp 20:05:39 a little hairy with all the stuff that's in there to support porting stuff with lisps that were obsolete by the early eighties and so on, sure 20:05:55 erm 20:06:00 porting stuff from lisps 20:06:34 brentb: that's a tiny handful of functions and a couple unfortunate name choices, almost irrelevant 20:06:57 the person I have in mind would pick some very minor rough edge and declare it to "obviously" be the pinnacle of stupidity. 20:07:04 brentb: Exactly. And personally, I tend to try to put myself in their place, and that gives me great admiration for what was accomplished and for the people who accomplished it. 20:07:13 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:08:39 I do think the pretty printer was one bit CL could've left on the floor, though. :) 20:09:11 brentb: And, although the CLIM specification is not as high quality as the CLHS, I still admire Scott McKay for what he did, and I wouldn't dream of calling it "crap" until I could come up with something better. Same thing goes for X11. 20:09:32 hefner: Pathnames?? 20:10:32 So am I allowed to commit new stuff? 20:10:42 It is just too easy to use a couple of decades of hindsight to call things "crap" (or equivalent). The thing is that the authors at the time didn't have that luxury. 20:10:45 CLIM is a tough call: it looks amazing on paper but I haven't seen a truly amazing app written in it and the version of climacs that I was able to get running with asdf-install looks more like a technology demo than something useful. 20:11:18 genera was a pretty amazing app 20:11:37 genera used CLIM? 20:11:44 yeah 20:11:48 no, DW 20:11:52 brentb: So that proves that the CLIM spec should not have been written, or that McCLIM should have remained private, or that Climacs was a mistake? 20:12:03 heh. reference fail. :) 20:12:53 Dynamic Windows 20:13:01 by a similar notion, the most amazing applications I've seen in common lisp are axiom and macsyma both of which were mostly written in other lisps before the advent of common lisp 20:13:07 well, clim descended from dynammic windows. 20:13:12 CLIM 2.0 is tastefully designed but aging badly. 20:13:29 hefner: That I can agree with. 20:13:52 [which is why I am "working" on CLIM 3] 20:13:58 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 20:14:23 beach: is it at a point where you can release it to the playpen? 20:14:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:12 *wgl* my iron lung is working again 20:15:43 Fade: I have very little. Only some code that replaces the basics of sheets, designs, and output records, and which avoids quadratic algorithms for updating the display. 20:15:57 ah 20:16:34 *hefner* chuckles, one of his abortive dabblings in non-CLIM UI layers was dubbed "playpen" 20:16:44 :D 20:16:46 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:17:14 Fade: Given the (lack of) time I have to work on this, it probably won't ever be released, so it is going to remain a project to give me personal satisfaction that I could actually improve on such an impressive design. 20:18:22 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:18:33 ahh 20:18:47 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:52 beach: you could always release it in its current state and hope others pick up the ball and run with it 20:19:16 what I'm grumpy about today: there's enough spam in comp.lang.lisp that it's impossible to read with the google groups interface 20:19:20 How often does something like that happen? 20:19:43 (that it became the standard argumentation) 20:19:56 slyrus: I could, yes. But I tried that already with McCLIM, and given the reaction of some people, it's not worth it. 20:20:19 brentb: eternal-september.org 20:20:24 perhaps .com 20:20:57 beach: just release it under a pseudonym and ignore their reaction then :) there are those of us who would be curious to see what you've got and it would be unfortunate if it stayed on the shelf for lack of free time 20:22:24 slyrus: I know I sound like an old fart, but I am very pessimistic these days. I'll be happy to give you a copy whenever I have something that I am proud of. 20:22:29 tcr: thanks 20:22:34 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-10-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:46 time to set gnus back up I guess. 20:23:33 beach: I had the impression mcclim was/is generally considered to be a good thing. 20:23:54 prxq: Did you ask Kenny? 20:24:05 who cares about Kenny? 20:24:15 many people unfortunately do. 20:24:22 bad for them 20:24:33 That, I agree with. 20:24:37 beach: on c.l.l. or somewhere else? 20:24:39 you mean herr tilton? 20:24:49 kz, who else? 20:25:03 Fade: Ja, ich meine Herr Tilton. 20:25:14 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-208-149-160.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:25:15 danke 20:25:32 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:52 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 20:26:23 Fade: Who, when invited to ELS in Bordeaux, said something like "That's crap, ECLM is the *only real* Common Lisp event in Europe". 20:26:56 i don't follow c.l.l so I'm not that familiar with him. 20:26:57 *slyrus* is reminded about the old joke about academia (again) 20:27:04 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:27:04 beach: presumably because he did the keynote at the 2008 ECLM. 20:27:07 I read some of his rants on cells, which seemed interesting 20:27:08 Fade: Good for you! 20:27:27 c.l.l. is a waste of time and energy 20:27:52 mtd: Sure, but why is that people can't stick with pushing their own stuff rather than resorting to pissing all over other people's things? 20:28:01 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:28:15 beach: indeed. 20:28:18 beach: that, is a good question 20:28:23 but it seems to be human nature. :P 20:28:24 prxq: So I thought, too, but you know you can only change it to the positive by contributing positive stuff 20:28:48 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.159.156] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:29:11 There's seemingly a disconnect in the CL world between what people think they want or need, and what they're willing to invest effort in realizing, and maybe part of this mismatch comes out in anger and lashing out at the current state of things. A magical singing and dancing "native" CL GUI toolkit seems to fall into this category (hardly surprising, or you wouldn't have seen Garnet stagnate and more or less die before McCLIM ever exi 20:29:11 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-10-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:29:12 sted) 20:29:46 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:29:47 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:55 garnet was actually the first project I found on my road to common lisp. 20:30:06 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:30:38 the state of gui development on cl does seem a little bit retarded. it's almost like as a group everybody just decided that graphics weren't the way. :) 20:30:47 Well, there are a couple of issues. One is that there is no real "native" linux GUI interface beyond X11. 20:31:40 X is a defacto standard. 20:31:52 x + gl 20:31:54 Another is that there actually are bindings out there for things like gtk and win32, but almost nobody uses them for various reasons. 20:31:56 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-29-110.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:13 i'm quite excited by commonqt. 20:32:31 nyef: I'm not sure if it's relevant to your statement, but I mean "native" in the sense of "written mostly in CL, not wrapping something else", although a standard native toolkit like you have on Windows or OS X would change things 20:32:39 Ah. 20:32:45 *prxq* has been hearing the old gui thing for at least five years now 20:33:17 I come away from this thinking that library bindings are not a great way to do things 20:33:36 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:45 I'm coming close to the point of being able to find something like McCLIM very useful, but McCLIM itself just completely irritates me every time I try to use it. 20:33:46 for all of java's faults, the fact that one can get a decent (marginal?) GUI up and running with clojure basically out of the box is a big win, IYAM. 20:33:48 it would be nice not to have to talk to c/c++ for sure 20:33:53 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:34:00 Hi there, sorry for the intromission, I have a very simple cuestion 20:34:39 francogrex [n=user@91.177.159.156] has joined #lisp 20:34:39 how about ltk? 20:34:40 don't worry about the underuption 20:35:05 nyef: Are we allowed to commit new stuff? 20:35:36 tcr: 1.0.33 is tagged, so I would presume so. 20:35:40 gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-75-7-4-247.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:43 satiricon_: ask away! 20:35:45 Im trying to set autocompletion in emacs, I had succes I think, but I think I need a clisp standard function definition file 20:35:45 Fade: as I've been having a ball using inline C with ECL lately, I look at it differently. It's nice being able TO talk to C, and not having to write CFFI bindings for things first. 20:36:03 thats it 20:36:11 satiricon_: Slime supports various ways of completion 20:36:11 I have been lookin around 20:36:12 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:18 hefner: *nod* 20:36:31 I installed an extension called autocomplete 20:36:31 I've been wondering about glade lately 20:36:58 satiricon_: Well, for CL you usually use Slime which is more like a development environment. 20:37:07 it is working, but it just lists the words I have previously write in the file 20:37:13 minion: slime 20:37:14 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 20:37:32 I am using slime too 20:37:34 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has quit [] 20:37:44 hefner: Your analysis seems very plausible to me. 20:37:48 but i didnt saw the autocompletion in slime 20:38:06 very sorry for my bad english ^^ 20:38:16 satiricon_: Ah you want completion as you type? 20:38:18 yeah, it's terrible! :) 20:38:25 yes, exactly 20:38:37 ajajaj it is ^^ 20:38:42 satiricon_: I tried that once but it was pretty slow 20:38:53 using library bindings from lisp is somewhat painfull, but usually beats using the originals. 20:38:54 satiricon_: You can customize slime so TAB will complete 20:39:07 hoo 20:39:14 i didnt knew that 20:39:16 (plus it always bugged me that if I deploy a CL app, however hypothetical that may be, it has a big layer of FFI machinery in it which should really only need to exist at compile time, and FFI wrapper functions for an entire library of which I might be using 2%) 20:39:41 ok, thanks ill search for info to do that 20:39:53 satiricon_: it's very easy, wait 20:40:19 *hefner* is reminded, hypocrite that he is, to finish his libsndfile binding and push out a new and improved mixalot 20:40:26 ok =0 20:40:35 nyef: I am at the point where every time I need to write a GUI app, McCLIM makes it *so* easy, that if I didn't have it, I would have to write it. 20:40:35 satiricon_: Put (define-key slime-mode-map [tab] 'slime-indent-and-complete-symbol) into your ~/.emacs 20:40:55 satiricon_: Notice that will make TAB at the beginning of a line indent the line, and TAB at a symbol will complete the symbol 20:41:09 beach: I think that one of my problems is the dependencies that McCLIM has, and another is that the only real way to get McCLIM running is to use clbuild. 20:41:09 hooo 20:41:17 let me try =) 20:41:24 Essentially, the complete lack of any sort of real release engineering. 20:41:52 Well, combined with the complete lack of a usable previous release the way CLX has. 20:42:01 well, the entire ecosphere if lisp libraries is in a constant state of flux. 20:42:14 (Not that I use the previous CLX release... or the upstream CLX for that matter...) 20:42:48 I agree that some release engineering would make clx and mcclim more attractive 20:43:03 particularly in combination with a useful bug tracker 20:43:06 beach: how often do you need to write a GUI app? 20:43:07 Not that there seems to be any -activity- on CLX. 20:43:39 positive vibrations, yeeeaaa 20:43:48 nyef: When things like that come from someone like you, I agree with everything. But we do have 100kLOC in McCLIM, so it would be much easier to fix those problems than to start from scratch with mumbleTK or Cells or whatever. 20:43:52 If I trusted myself to maintain a software project properly, I might consider taking up releng for something like CLX. 20:43:52 nyef: that's not quite true; the stumpwm people keep me moderately busy 20:44:12 a couple of bug fixes and merging a couple of new features a year 20:44:16 beach: That is what attracted me to McCLIM! I don't really understand much of it, but for some reason it made it easy for me to get a GUI app up. Somthing GTK and whatnot never did for me :) 20:44:21 Hmm. 20:44:22 hefner: 4 times per year. 20:44:32 or maybe it is how my brain is not wired for gtk 20:44:49 nyef: I trust you. 20:45:01 beach: Thanks. 20:45:07 nyef: if you want, I'm willing to trial tracking clx bugs in launchpad and to bless you to do clx releases 20:45:14 schme: Then there are two of us. 20:45:28 since I have not managed an actual release at all in several years, you don't really need my blessing 20:45:35 *hefner* has a masochistic love of hand-rolling GUI widgets on top of framebuffers, OpenGL, a mcclim sheet, whatever 20:45:56 Krystof: And here I was thinking about possibly just making releases from my git repository. 20:46:10 Krystof: how about making clx part of sbcl-contrib? 20:46:24 tcr, that worked flawlesly, It is not what I was looking for at the begining but It will do, thank you very much 20:46:25 hefner: Do you think we should get together and do the framebuffer McCLIM backend? 20:46:33 what for? 20:46:38 CLX as an SBCL contrib? 20:46:44 tic: what for what? 20:46:50 beach: sorry, I'm investing my energy elsewhere. 20:46:57 beach, McCLIM fb backend. What's the purpose? 20:47:00 (what little of it there is to go around) 20:47:05 hefner: I understand. 20:47:09 satiricon_: You're probably new to slime. There are two caveats that new people often do not know: a) use slime from CVS, b) make sure to place (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) into your .emacs 20:47:15 cmatei [n=user@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 20:47:18 tic: For non-X platforms, presumably. 20:47:27 Oh. 20:47:47 tic: consistent looks through partial transparency, better exposure management, etc. 20:47:49 Wasn't aware McCLIM being so tightly bound to X with everything custom anyway. 20:47:56 beach, *nod* 20:48:02 tcr, I am a total n00b in lisp and emacs, but learning fast, thank you very much 20:48:03 SDL-CLIM. 20:48:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:33 *schme* does not think framebuffer is worth the effort.. Would framebuffer backend not mean you would have to actually kill x to use it? :) 20:48:39 Okay, I'm gone for an hour or so. 20:48:52 tic: Several backends are possible, and some have been worked on. The only one really maintained seems to be CLX though, probably because that's what most people use. 20:48:53 schme, couldn't you get a framebuffer from X to paint on? 20:49:02 beach, yeah. 20:49:03 tic: oh ok. Maybe. I do not know :) 20:49:15 *schme* only really used framebuffer on that one device to avoid not starting X. 20:49:25 tic: I came to the conclusion a while ago that if you want a shiny, next-generationish UI that Actually Works (on Linux, anyway), a framebuffer (not OpenGL, dodgy new Xorg features, etc.) is the only place to start (and doing so, stuff that's hard in X11 becomes easy) 20:49:43 schme: No, in fact I have a framebuffer backend that you can use per-sheet. But it would be nicer to have a complete backend. 20:49:49 tic: that boplatsgbg sure is different from boplastsyd. 20:49:55 beach: oh cools. 20:50:18 Well so much for my thinking it was a bad idea then :D 20:50:39 schme, yes. 20:50:41 as I understand it, Mac OS X does basically the same thing (except using the GPU to composite the final pieces together) 20:50:45 tic: Exactly. I use an X11 image client-side object that I transfer to the display server regularly (it could be improved by only transfering modified regions). 20:50:59 hefner, what's wrong with OpenGL now? 20:51:04 beach, right. 20:51:20 Hm. So much things I want to do. Like work on the ncurses backend. 20:51:35 is ncurses good for anything but roguelikes? 20:51:50 tic: Decide on one thing. Do it, release it (duck the criticism). 20:51:55 Also how would one handle sigwinch in CL ? 20:51:58 beach, I guess. 20:52:21 schme, ncurses would be good for clim apps running in screen or such. 20:52:24 I'm going to make the McCLIM killer app 20:52:29 :D 20:52:33 tic: Pffft! Don't listen to beach. Start a new project each day. Flip a dice every day to see which one to hack on. Get very confused every day :D 20:52:39 but aren't we all 20:52:39 schme: A McCLIM ncurses backend would be great, because then all text-only applications like Climacs would "just work", and then one more criticism would go down the tube. 20:52:40 ziga`: would that be the app that kills McCLIM? 20:52:48 beach: right. duck the criticism :-) 20:52:48 tic: That actually makes sense. 20:52:50 schme, ... that's very much what life looks like, yes. 20:53:03 Did not someone start making a text backend? 20:53:22 Also.. handling sigwinch? I'm curious :) 20:53:33 schme, yes, someone did. 20:53:37 schme: I am trying to tell tic "do as I say" rather than "do as I do". 20:54:04 ziga`: What app is that? 20:54:05 *tic* does whatever spiderpig do 20:54:28 the problem with McCLIM is that default looks look like 1980 (without good reason) and that CLX is the only good backend - windows app deployment is troublesome 20:54:30 tic: The problem with OpenGL on Linux? I think you *still* can't rely on the drivers being usable for a desktop app. Passable maybe for a trailing-edge game, but not for something you keep open coexisting with other programs. 20:54:33 beach: Maxima GUI 20:55:04 ziga`: I think you must have told me this before. That would *definitely* be a killer app. 20:55:22 beach, could be. not investigated OpenGL lately. hrm. 20:55:42 did anyone get to run gtkairo backend on mac os x? I have problems 20:55:45 beach: hahaha :D 20:56:23 I seem to remember slava being very upset by the state of opengl for GUI on linux. 20:56:23 hefner: I know that CAD/CAM/CAE and some other stuff is quite happy on Linux with OpenGL... at least some of that stuff is I think available nowadays only on linux 20:56:23 frankly I don't know what the problem is. A GUI app in CL isn't more difficult than in most other languages. 20:56:35 beach: I also worked on wxWidgets gui 'wxMaxima' and I stopped once I realised how much better would a Maxima gui be if it were implemented in Common Lisp 20:56:37 (with the factor UI being in opengl and being a bit.. dodgy on linux) 20:56:40 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:57:09 prxq: Problem is no one has made it yet, and everyone is all "this sucks. there is no GUI thingie. and we really need it. CL sucks." 20:57:13 prxq: sure it is, name one library that's like Qt or wxWidgets for lisp 20:57:14 p_l: yeah, and that's the kind of stuff you probably care enough about to go out of your way to make work (like buying hardware with drivers you know will work). 20:57:36 I thought there was a wxwidget lisp binding? :) 20:57:50 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:58:01 schme: any working ones :D 20:58:03 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-40-235.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:58:09 ziga`: pffft! 20:58:10 ziga`: You are on the right path. Now you just have to realize that the additonal effort to make McCLIM look more modern is *way* less than trying to write a Maxima GUI in some FFI-based connection to something else. 20:58:19 ziga`: You can't keep changing the specifications of what you want :P 20:58:28 hefner: well, some of that stuff includes software that is bound to hw signatures of hard drives used for storage... :D 20:58:38 ziga`: there you have Qt, and wxWidgets. You can at least use them like you would use them from C. Which is exactly what most people outside of the lisp world do. 20:59:11 there are functioning gtk bindings. 20:59:13 prxq: But that's so painful. 20:59:25 p_l: but to give you an example, the nvidia drivers (purportedly the gold standard on Linux, feature and performance-wise) started freezing the X server up for a second or two at a time under various circumstances, like when I resize the window. If my IRC client did that, I'd use a different one. This has gone on for something like two years, and I fear will never get fixed except by accident. 20:59:34 beach: I think McCLIM can be so configurable on so many levels it's going to be OK - problematic for me is application deployment on MS windows 20:59:36 prxq: The reason we are Lispers is that we want to avoid all that pain. 20:59:41 beach: that I agree with. 20:59:51 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:59:58 ziga`: My "when it's done it's done" windows CLIM backend will include extra themes (system-like one and I guess something that looks like Nimbus from Java) 21:00:09 hefner: the binary nvidia drivers? Who purports that those are the gold standard? 21:00:21 I thought everyone said that they were high-performance but crashy and unsupportable 21:00:23 prxq: I haven't managed to get Qt bindings running - but it perhaps is only me 21:00:28 Krystof: most people that have dealt with certain other driver... 21:00:34 beach: tight. but it sometimes leads us to whine a bit too much. 21:00:44 Krystof: Dunno about crashing. nvidia binaries work relly good for me :) 21:00:46 ziga`: Sure, and I can't help you there because I know virtually nothing about Windows. 21:00:47 Krystof: that was in the past, when Radeon 9200 was blazing new 21:00:48 ziga`: i admit I have no experience with Qt 21:00:48 Krystof: I do! Although they are a little crashy. 21:00:54 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 21:01:30 driver quality in general seems to be a little lower, IMHO 21:01:32 ziga`: nor with wxwindows :-) but with gtk I have some. 21:01:40 -!- Eko [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:01:51 Krystof: ot: still using org-mode? 21:02:44 prxq: sadly GTK isn't so great for MS windows - for other systems CLX+McCLIM is pretty OK (but I still don't know how to use clipboard and some other stuff - transparent pixmaps) 21:02:50 -!- satiricon_ [n=david@190.51.99.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:57 I keep meaning to look at graphic-forms on windows. 21:03:00 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.159.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:04 The factor UI is another example. My laptop uses the free R300 DRI driver, and every so often all the text in UI gets completely scrambled. Plus my beloved Starpixel factor game, with its strictly 1980s graphics, runs at 1 fps here for no good reason. 21:03:19 Maybe one should just get some .Net bindings and use that thing as a mcclim backend. 21:03:36 beach: You could always organize some kind fundraising, so people who want certain stuff done could simply raise money to hire someone to write it 21:03:44 bounties! 21:03:55 brentb: There was a graphic-forms backend to McCLIM at some point. Perhaps you would like to work on it? 21:04:36 schme: yea :D 21:04:55 hefner: I think perhaps opengl backend for McCLIM with smart use of display lists could run OK.. but I think slava is right - opengl is the shorthest path to crossplatform display 21:04:55 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:07 anyway, a shiny themed McCLIM cries for a framebuffer backend, so you can go all out with antialiased, alpha-blended goodness. Otherwise the upper limit is something like a decked out Gtk 2.0 21:05:31 framebuffer backend would be actually the most portable one... 21:05:32 p_l: I am working on it, but longterm. Currently 4 people in Sài Gòn work part-time paid by me. If things take off, I might ask for funding. Right now it looks like it might not be right away. 21:05:33 hefner: framebuffer backend? 21:06:23 p_l: It has the additional advantage that I am trying to get the VN software industry to be interested in productivity, and CL would be one way. 21:06:30 well, depending on how it will look like, I'd be happy to help with Windows support in McCLIM... assuming I get a place to sleep/eat/etc. 21:06:35 ziga`: OpenGL is not the shortest path to crossplatform display unless you count using GLUT, in which case you are just toying around. Regarding framebuffer backend, scroll up a bit. 21:06:53 hefner, toying around? why's that? 21:06:53 beach: VN? 21:06:59 Vietnam 21:07:22 ah 21:07:35 I thought you were in bordeaux 21:07:46 prxq: very much so 21:07:48 GLUT iirc doesn't work on Windows, right? 21:08:02 Fade: We have a branch of our masters program in Sài Gòn. 21:08:07 p_l: I'm sure it does. 21:08:12 hefner: nobody says that opengl on linux is perfect but i think the situation with nvidia at least is quite a bit better than you describe 21:08:14 glut works on windows 21:08:36 if it crashed and burned as you say nobody would use it, and there are a lot of projects using it 21:08:55 Krystof: I gather then that its text-basedness is not a source of instability. How long did it take you to master it? (looks quite daunting) 21:09:19 Fade: Essentially, I am fed up with the European (and American, and New Zealand) software industry, and it would be great to teach them a lesson by having a highly-productive industry in a country like Vietnam, using tools that they can only dream of. 21:09:22 beach: sweet 21:09:32 blender is 100% opengl, had some issues with intel drivers that i know but a lot of ppl use it 21:09:42 also maya, houdini etc 21:09:44 is McCLIM flexible enough to do something along the lines of that nifty Scheme-based interactive graphics-oriented REPL? (can't remember the name) 21:10:04 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:10:07 I am pretty favorably impressed with how well it works on my laptop, but my laptop is about the oldest one you'd be able to find with a Quadro chipset 21:10:14 tic: fluxus? 21:10:16 opengl on linux that is 21:10:17 Yeah 21:10:20 tic: The CLIM listener sounds like your description. 21:10:33 beach, seen Fluxus, though? 21:10:37 beach: CLIM listener is not quite as flashy as fluxus :) 21:10:39 so the hardware support is there and the platform is very mature: I'd be more worried about nvidia dropping support 21:10:40 fluxus updates at 60fps 21:10:49 i doubt the clim listener is in a costant redraw 21:10:50 tic: No, so I may be wrong. 21:10:58 tic: it's better to just use glut and roll your own editor 21:11:08 prxq: "master"? I don't know. But I got it to tell me what I should be doing over the period of a week 21:11:12 Fluxus tutorial one -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O5DJTOy6EA 21:11:26 basically by copying my todo list into org-mode format 21:11:32 McCLIM is for widgeted apps, not real time animation 21:11:34 fluxus is pretty neat 21:11:40 and you can incrementally change stuff 21:11:42 fluxus is basically an immediate mode editor 21:11:47 xristos: and there are a lot of people who can't or won't run them. My point is that using plain X11 is 100% reliable on any Linux dekstop, adding in OpenGL instills enough fear and uncertainty in me to not want to bet the farm on it. 21:11:49 Krystof: ...and using the agenda mode, etc? 21:12:03 I find the listener great though, because you can fire up a window, and use all CLIM drawing primitives in real time. 21:12:18 prxq: the agenda mode just happens automatically 21:12:20 hefner: Also opengl .. on openbsd? :) 21:12:23 mostly automatically 21:12:27 ok 21:12:31 *schme* hugs X11 21:13:03 hefner: there are drawbacks with every approach on this, you just need to select what you're comfortable with 21:13:11 there are plenty of features I don't use (tagging, drawers, priorities) 21:13:20 *hefner* thinks openbsd users are just going out of their way to be a pain in the ass, and half of them would switch to a more obscure unixoid the moment it ran enough of their "stuff" 21:14:02 but I needed something that I could write things into like "need to have exam paper written by this date" and be confident that it would remind me 21:14:10 but sure, if it supports my argument, hooray you crazy OpenBSD and NetBSD users. 21:14:26 not to mention "there's a workshop that I'm organizing on this date; all of these things are preconditions" 21:14:33 Krystof: I see. 21:14:46 hefner: what does this 'framebuffer' mean? I think McCLIM should use OS dependant cffis for opening windows, handling events and clipboard support - for rendering OpenGL or any other method should do fine... the OS dependant stuff could even be a custom clim C library based perhaps on GLFW where most work is done (events, windows...) already 21:15:06 something like factor UI basically 21:15:09 i think it means using a generic framebuffer and doing all drawing themselves 21:15:18 Krystof: from the manual it looked kinda... baroque to me. 21:15:22 which i like 21:15:28 xristos: and than blitting it onto a window? 21:15:31 prxq: the "Getting Things Done" org-mode tutorials are useful for getting a feeling; the whole thing is overkill, but it gives a flavour of workflow 21:15:33 yeha 21:15:49 prxq: it's like emacs. Don't start by trying to do all the things in the manual at once :) 21:15:57 xristos: the downside of this is that unless you concede all the drawing code to C, SBCL will be the only lisp fast enough to run it :) 21:16:04 Krystof: I'll check them out. Right :-) 21:16:11 xristos: but such things as 'records' lend themselves very nicely to be implemented with OpenGL display lists 21:16:25 ziga`: i am not the one to talk about opengl ;p 21:16:40 stump sits on clx by itself, no? 21:16:52 hefner explained what problems he has with that approach 21:16:54 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:16:58 prxq: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~charles57/GTD/gtd_workflow.html is probably the better one, I think 21:17:14 and he is right, given what he wants to support 21:17:15 ziga`: Even for a particular OS, you can choose the border between McCLIM and the display server. You can use native gadgets (widgets) or you can use the CLIM implementation of them and just use the windowing substrate. 21:17:39 Krystof: thanks 21:17:46 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-68-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:08 -!- decto [n=azeaze@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:18:15 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-68-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:18:30 ziga`: So one option is to use only the "display a rectangle of pixels" facility of the OS, and that's what a "framebuffer backend" means. 21:18:47 tic: regardling mcclim versus fluxus, I'm not sure how to respond, since McCLIM has no OpenGL support to speak of. If you replace OpenGL with the existing crude X11ish drawing functions then yes, I think you could do that without much ugliness. 21:18:47 beach: native widgets are a lot of work - I don't like native widgets if it's not a very native app - the only native stuff I like is save/load dialogs which would be wierd otherwise 21:19:03 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:19:42 hefner: the factor ide started out on a generic framebuffer (sdl) 21:19:53 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 21:19:57 beach: sure - but would that be fast enough when perhaps dragging some graphic? With opengl you can just translate and call that display list(s) and it works 21:20:03 then they added opengl which is quite easy to do if you have the fb port done 21:20:08 hefner, OpenGL isn't a requirement, was more thinking of the support in general for doing "free-form" stuff, be it in 2D or 3D. 21:20:20 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:27 ziga`: I am probably too tired, but I don't understand what your argument is, if you have one. I was just trying to explain what a "frame-buffer backend" means. 21:20:31 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-68-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:39 beach: ok 21:20:39 :D 21:20:53 beach: I'm saying it would be slow for non-static apps 21:21:04 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-68-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:21:08 especialy on CCL which is a requirement on windows 21:21:13 for threading 21:21:43 ziga`: I tried it on my office computer, and I get dozens of frames per second, even if I assume that the entire display will be updated each time. 21:22:03 ziga`: and that was a few years ago with now-outdated hardware. 21:22:11 ziga`: I assure you, computers are fast enough today to scribble around in memory and copy it to the screen, animated in real time, just like games did 15 years ago before we had 3D accelerators :) 21:22:25 beach: what do you use to access the screen? 21:22:32 there were computers 15 year ago? 21:22:44 before electricity even!? 21:22:47 ziga`: client-side X11 image object. 21:22:52 hefner: true, but producing that array in lisp might be slow in CCL.. 21:22:57 -!- dv___ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:59 su 21:23:06 beach: cool 21:23:10 yeah, well, that's CCL's problem for not being SBCL. 21:23:18 bet it isn't slow in CCL 21:23:26 it might be slow in lisp500, but even then 21:23:57 and honestly I'd write all that in C (portable assembly!) anyway to avoid the whole issue 21:24:15 basically I want my McCLIM Maxima GUI to spend CPU on Maxima calculations - not on updating display while I'm playing around with mouse 21:24:29 mmm mode13h 21:25:01 mov eax,0x13 \n int 0x10 :P 21:25:33 Yeah. 21:25:34 ziga`: So stop waving the mouse around like a chimpanzee =p 21:25:49 mov edi, 0a0000h, etc. 21:26:06 hefner: tell that to the user while he's deleting your McCLIM app and installing wxMaxima .. :P 21:26:27 tic: :)) good old demo scene memories. :) 21:26:39 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-10-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:26:55 hypno, oh yeah! 21:27:04 anyway is there any way to display transparent pixmaps on McCLIM - I'd like to render mathematical expressions with TeX fonts? 21:27:08 pmode/w and so on. Are there any Lisp demos around? 21:27:11 sorry. demo scene died with the amiga. 21:27:39 tic: heh, not that i know of. never heard of CL beeing used for something like that. 21:27:47 ziga`: Let me assure you that a Maxima GUI would entirely possible, and highly desirebly in CLIM/McCLIM. 21:28:09 hypno, as long as you can ffi in mikmod or fmod, you have everything you need. 21:28:18 beach: it actually seems more and more possible the more I learn about CLIM 21:28:19 tic: my idea for the ultimate Lisp demo would be to make a recreation of the "Stanley and Stella" animation programmed in CL, except all rendered in realtime 21:28:35 hefner, haven't seen it! think it's on youtube? 21:28:38 and as compute graphics goes, that isn't particularly ambitious 21:29:25 Eko [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:27 ziga`: The "presentation type" facility of CLIM would make such an interface dynamite. 21:30:01 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A64F83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:32 tic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w51JqHTdasY - the titles seem to be stripped off this version, but it was produced by Symbolics Graphics Division in the 80s, rendered on a bunch of 3600 lispms. Also, the origin of the Boids algorithm. 21:31:12 beach: true - I want to do stuff like dragging math expressions onto a plot to display them and so on... but I'm still trying to wrap my mind about all these abstractions in CLIM 21:31:22 hefner, cool. (certainly doable in realtime) 21:31:36 even on contemporary hardware, no? 21:32:05 ziga`: are you sure that that is a good idea or even feasible 21:32:20 prxq: why not? 21:32:20 tic: probably doable on a Voodoo2 =p 21:32:24 2nd reality in Lisp. 21:32:28 hefner, yeah, heh. 21:32:53 Voodoo 2... ah fond memories.. 21:32:59 ziga`: CLIM, like Lisp, doesn't cater to newbies or occasional users. But, as in the case of Lisp, it is well worth the investment. 21:33:45 ziga`: sort of a gut feeling that it wont. How would it know the bounds, for instance? 21:33:49 beach: true.. and Lisp is easy compared to CLIM :D CLIM is a forest of abstractions 21:34:04 my first *useful* 3D card was Voodoo2 with 12MB of RAM :) (In theory, my main card had 3D capability... but I'm not sure if it had anything more than line drawings, Z-Buffer and filling polygons with single color...) 21:34:10 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:34:26 marioxcc [n=user@200.56.148.180] has joined #lisp 21:34:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88.149.209.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:47 *prxq* .oO("forest of abstractions"? and "dragging math expressions around"?) 21:34:58 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 21:35:03 prxq: it doesn't have to right away, you could modify them interactively - of course you can always 'plot(sin(x),[x,0,10]) if you want to be specific, programatic 21:35:08 there were a few "3d" cards from that era where the 3d silicon was so bug-ridden that it was unusable 21:36:56 the noninteractive part of Maxima GUI is already done with wxMaxima pretty well - CLIM gui needs to do something remarkable - like perhaps making 'mini-apps' in maxima language that can be deployed 21:37:21 alama [n=alama@a81-84-249-124.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:37:39 ziga`: if you're more interested in getting an application into people's hands than advancing the state of the art in free CL GUIs (which will end up siphoning a huge amount of time), I suggest ignoring libraries and bindings (except to fork/steal from) and going the full custom route (hand rolled C glue, minimalist FFI bindings on an as-needed basis, etc.) 21:37:50 I guess that sounds like some duct-tape programming. 21:38:01 hmm... add tablet/touch support to CLIM and you've got an interesting platform 21:39:10 add handwritten expression recognition and you've got a market secured :D 21:39:33 katchaFire [n=katcha@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:39 then add telepathy and you've advanced the state of human knowledge 21:39:46 hefner: why not use the existing ones? bloat? why should one care in this day and age? 21:39:56 hefner: interesting - I've thought about that but I concluded I might duplicate half of McCLIM in a bad way (like gui elements positioning, panes transformations and so on) - kinda greenspuns tenth rule .. perhaps I'm wrong and I'll bump into some barrier 21:40:00 prxq: mostly because they don't actually work 21:40:52 hefner: some of the new GTK2 attempts seemed to have bright future (I guess at least partly because they could autogenerate bindings to GObject) 21:40:58 ziga`: The analysis of hefner is fine, though I usually encourage people to think a step further so that their actions might benefit other projects. 21:41:17 -!- hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:24 p_l: which new gtk2 bindings? 21:41:54 *p_l* is actually interested in both getting the app to clients and advancing CL, so he is "on a mission from God" in his company :P 21:42:00 ziga`: I guess in that kind of app there is a serious risk of reinventing CLIM streams and output recording. On the other hand, if you approach it sanely and stick to what you need, maybe you don't need most of it and can simplify. Or you could advance into the new millennium and embed an HTML control. 21:42:09 prxq: I don't remember the names, but they were "newer" compared to some other bindings 21:42:25 :-) newer than lambda-gtk 21:42:26 ? 21:42:44 yea 21:43:02 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2/ is quite new and active 21:43:06 oh wow! 21:43:17 great - sometimes it's 'use McCLIM it's great', sometimes the other way around.. 21:43:35 exactly why CL lacks nice gui popular apps :D 21:43:41 no definite way to do it 21:43:50 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:43:52 must be why Linux lacks them, too. 21:44:06 -!- katchaFire [n=katcha@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 21:44:17 with linux it's GTK or Qt, both very developed and tested 21:44:17 I heard something about another binding, started in similar timeframe to cl-gtk2 21:44:19 hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 21:44:46 ziga`: So.. there is no definite way to do it on linux either then? 21:45:07 ziga`: there's always Motif, FLTK, Xaw3d, Xt, wxWindows,... 21:45:09 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f755912.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:09 my point is if you want to write an app, write an app. Even starting completely from scratch, unless you do something fantastically stupid, you can't possibly make your life harder than if you'd written in C, and that's the open source status quo. 21:45:25 ziga`: What is popular is not necessarily good, and vice versa. 21:45:57 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:46:05 hefner: Words from the wise. 21:46:21 true true 21:47:16 hefner: right indeed :-) 21:47:34 I've written a simple Maxima help browser in McCLIM and it's really elegant and small - I got some faith in McCLIM that way :D 21:47:34 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:47:36 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.243.157] has quit [] 21:47:55 prxq: also, another GUI toolkit in Linux that might be getting some extra traction - Windows.Forms 21:47:58 ziga`: You seem to share my experience then. 21:48:26 zwiro4 [n=GR@bsb94-1-82-232-16-80.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:34 I just fear the day I have a half usable GUI running here on Mac OS X SBCL with CLX backend and I try to get to run it / deploy on MS Windows (which is a priority) and everything dies.. :( 21:50:04 ("fantastically stupid" isn't fair, there are countless decisions which might end up screwing you over down the line, but that's what makes things interesting) 21:50:27 ziga`: I can't help you there because I know nothing about Windows. 21:50:35 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@121.45.58.84] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:50:44 ziga`: maybe work on a windows box in the fist place 21:50:46 nobody does :D 21:50:50 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:50:55 ziga`: i wouldn't expect many to install xserver just to run your app ;p 21:51:02 judging by the work that nyef has been doing lately, the sbcl+windows situation is far from optimal atm. 21:51:13 xristos: that's the first problem, yes 21:51:20 I spent about a year programming MFC in Visual C++ :-) like ten years ago 21:51:33 CCL/win64 works fine... 21:51:53 i also use ccl on ppc/osx 21:52:15 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-88-86.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:18 with ccl you even have the problem that 32 bit doesn't run on 64 bit windows somehow afaik 21:52:27 beach: oh, incidentally, I after a day or two or of flailing around I utterly failed to understand the Gtkairo repaint bug, or even succeed in disabling the errant double buffering that seemed to be responsible. 21:52:59 hefner: what do I need for Gtkairo on Mac OS X? 21:53:01 ...then I left on "vacation" (if I'm not already on vacation) for a couple weeks and forgot all about it. 21:53:21 is gtkairo usable? 21:53:42 I haven't broken sbcl on windows yet but I haven't tried much. 21:54:05 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:54:16 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:54:16 hefner: You don't make sense. Did you find the bug or did you not? 21:54:34 ziga`: which is a problem fixed very easily... 21:55:05 (the CCL's 32-on-64 problem) 21:55:18 beach: no, I just managed to completely confuse myself. 21:55:23 p_l: what do you mean? 21:55:29 francogrex [n=user@84.38-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:56:04 ziga`: just ship a combined 32 and 64bit binary installer package, with a launcher choosing the correct one 21:56:08 pjb: how would you suggest fixing my code on cll? 21:56:18 maybe that's to be expected and I ought to try it again 21:56:20 ziga`: It's one of those decisions you have to make: do you roll your own (which will benefit only you) or do you contribute to making a backend useful for everyone else. 21:56:23 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A64F83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:48 I can't seem to get it to work properly no matter what i do; 21:56:55 p_l: an easy solution 21:57:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-154.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:57:48 beach: a crossplatform gui toolkit would benefit everyone.. but making McCLIM better would also.. 21:58:03 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-48.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:11 beach: it's a win-win scenario as long as you do something nice in Lisp 21:58:12 :D 21:58:23 ziga`: The two sound like the same thing to me. 21:58:29 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-217-202.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 21:58:50 ziga`: Yes, I agree with the win-win analysis. 21:59:09 sellout: herep 21:59:15 Hey beach. 21:59:38 hello gigamonkey. How are things? 21:59:41 well the problems I see with McCLIM now are - clipboard support and rendering custom fonts (I could perhaps make a CLX specific solution here) 22:00:02 beach: good. 22:00:06 I see there is a new SBCL? 22:00:26 Not much Lisping for me lately, though, other than elisp. 22:00:27 practically every day. :) 22:00:42 How's with you? 22:00:50 ziga`: I don't have a solution for the clipboard, but I don't see the problem with custom fonts either. 22:01:08 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@124.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:01:51 gigamonkey: Is your long-term plan to retire and live off of royalties? 22:01:54 francogrex: if you want to return a pointer to a structure, it must have a dynamic scope. If it has a lexical scope, it cease to exist as soon as you exit. That's why you get errors, because you are addressing the stack, where data from other functions now resides. 22:02:06 beach: I wish. 22:02:19 francogrex: so the question is what you want to archive with that C function? What shall it do? 22:02:20 I have been doing some consulting for a Lisp related project. 22:02:21 ziga`: clipboard support (for simple selecting and pasting, but not drag and drop) is there, although the UI is counterintuitive. Not sure what you need for custom fonts if the truetype backends aren't sufficient, but you could hack a different source of glyphs into there if you really wanted TeX fonts. 22:02:48 beach: I want to render math expressions with some ttf fonts but I don't want to hack into McCLIM too much so I thought I could just use Pixmaps - but while browsing Gsharp code I found out that CLIM doesn't supprt alpha channel pixmaps? 22:02:50 Though the actual work has been pure consulting--they hired me back to solve a problem I really was responsible for creating in the first place. 22:02:52 gigamonkey: Pretty crappy here, but a large part of the problem has to do with admin charges which will end in some 30 weeks. 22:03:21 Translating some code writtin in my halfbaked Lispscript (Javascript in Lisp clothes) language back into Javascript so human beings can work on it. 22:03:26 beach: Bummer. 22:03:35 hefner: for clipboard - how does it work? 22:03:53 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has joined #lisp 22:03:56 francogrex: also, note that a C int may not hold a C pointer, you'd better use void* or whatever* rather than int. 22:04:37 ziga`: you can (or rather *I* can) draw images with alpha channels via xrender, but it isn't integrated into McCLIM in any useful way. Right now McCLIM just gives you plain color-key transparency (that's all you can do 100% reliably with X11 anyway, given what a piece of crap xrender turned out to be) 22:04:43 ziga`: CLIM has no problems with alpha channels. The X11 backend does. But for what you want, use mcclim-truetype and things will probably be acceptable. 22:05:02 30 weeks is a while, though. 3/4 of the time it takes to make a new human being. 22:05:14 ok 22:05:38 gigamonkey: you think so small 22:05:39 xrender could also do antialiased drawing right (like gtkairo)? problematic? 22:05:40 pjb: what i wanted was just a sample of a C function in a dll that return multiple int values when called using cffis 22:05:47 fortunately the alpha blending that text rendering needs is the one things that pretty much works everywhere 22:05:48 leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:05:49 I make lots of new human beings in 20 weeks 22:05:55 that's why i thought of pointers at first 22:05:56 my teaching skills reshape their minds 22:06:00 gigamonkey: Don't worry about me. I'll find ways to survive, including going to Vietname for a month in three weeks. 22:06:34 hefner: if xrender does alpha channel, why not put it into McCLIM? 22:06:42 and like someone suggested yesterday i used cffi:mem-aref 22:06:56 Krystof: Don't worry, I'm sure their minds snap back into the usual rut soon enough. :-P 22:07:05 gigamonkey: I've considered trying to get something like chicken to work with embedded micros but I then could never hand off any work ever again, so I stick to straight C. 22:07:57 brentb: I hear you. I may actually have to hack some PHP, for this co-op I belong to just because that's what they use. 22:08:00 -!- francogrex [n=user@84.38-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:08:01 ziga`: My analysis is that the xrender extension in CLX is somewhat buggy. 22:08:04 -!- zwiro4 [n=GR@bsb94-1-82-232-16-80.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:08:28 I'm going to try to at least use Python. But I think leaving them with a pile of CL might be a bit rude. 22:08:29 if only there were a bug tracker or mailing list, where your analysis could be recorded for posterity 22:08:51 nyef: still awake? 22:08:56 francogrex [n=user@84.38-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:09:04 i was cut from irc 22:09:08 ziga`: 1) I don't need it. 2) I dislike the state of image handling enough in McCLIM that I don't want to touch it, lest I swept up in rewriting things that mostly work already. 3) A surprising number of drivers don't accelerate any of the compositing ops, and the software fallback is completely, comically unusably slow. 22:09:25 Krystof: getting more positive towards bug trackers? 22:09:31 (oh dear, 5 AM, my grammar is slipping away) 22:09:43 I've always been positive towards bug trackers, apart from all those that make my life harder 22:10:06 no, but why is this the first I've heard of xrender being buggy? 22:10:09 Krystof: which is pretty much all of them? 22:10:36 correct, yes 22:10:43 ziga`: further, there's no good way to detect whether the performance xrender will give you will be blazing fast or unbearably slow except to try it and see, and, as I've stated, I'm conservative and like to stick to things that Actually Work (tm) 22:10:47 -!- Eko [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:10:58 I see 22:11:41 this topic needs a FAQ. 22:11:52 brentb: What are you doing on embedded micros? 22:12:14 but I can see the value of having one there that people can easily record issues in 22:12:35 ziga`: although the other way you can do it, which isn't as slow as you'd imagine, is to fetch pixels off the screen, alpha blend in software, then put the blended result back. Or, if you were working in a framebuffer to start with, you'd already have them, and could skip the "fetch the pixels" step. 22:12:49 Fade: Aww! You want to deprive us of repeating the arguments every day? 22:13:07 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.23.226] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:13:15 paying the bills, schme. everything from board layout to firmware to sheet metal. 22:13:22 hefner: that seems slower to me than anything X server might be doing! 22:13:44 brentb: Now thatsounds like a fun way to pay bills. 'cept the C part :D 22:13:46 ziga`: yet somehow you'd be wrong by several orders of magnitude :) 22:13:48 ziga`: Slow, but still very fast according to my experiments. 22:14:04 fascinating :D 22:15:02 probably the xrender software fallbacks hit video memory directly, over the PCI-whatever bus, maybe with no caching, write-combining, or any such fanciness going on to make the speed bearable 22:15:04 from a software standpoint it's pretty dull stuff. state machines and ISRs. one of these years I need to start using an RTOS. 22:15:24 brentb: How come you're not going with forth? 22:15:42 because then I'd never be able to hand software off to anyone else. 22:15:42 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@250.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:48 haha :) 22:15:55 on the bright side, in a few years, we'll have a choice of a half dozen different Xorg acceleration frameworks, at least one of which might solve these problems 22:16:23 brentb: make your embedded chicken. introduce subtle bugs. get hired as consultant 5 years later. PROFT 22:16:26 profit too 22:16:29 lispm [n=joswig@e177159060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:16:52 *gigamonkey* wonders if there's a stock ticker PRFT 22:17:10 Indeed there is. 22:18:05 ziga`: don't let me get you down, this can all be sorted out with some hacking and a bit of duct-tape (obviously, because other software manages it) 22:18:23 I even have bits of test code around somewhere that demonstrate the different techniques 22:18:32 :D 22:19:12 'demos' being mentioned earlier, I've put some links to graphics stuff 22:19:17 on the wikipedia page 22:19:23 I found all McCLIM code very helpful.. so any code should be put somewhere 22:19:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolics 22:20:36 there are youtube videos for 'little death' and 'virtually yours' 22:20:51 wow I'm inspecting McCLIM display records tree with SLIME - this is a lot of objects.. 22:21:37 you could use the mcclim listener and format-graph-from-roots 22:21:45 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6CE1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:22:16 *ziga`* wonders about performance 22:22:26 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.114.161] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:51 it's a very nice idea otherwise 22:23:27 but perhaps redrawing your own specific stuff can be faster (if you know what needs update) than these display records 22:24:19 ziga`: do you mean `output records'? 22:24:27 beach: yes :) 22:25:27 ziga`: The subclass `presentation' of output records is a fantastic and unique feature of CLIM. 22:25:40 I see - the idea is to grup stuff into rectangles as to quickly find out what needs redraw 22:26:06 subclass of output records? 22:26:17 certainly, but know where your bottleneck is. It probably isn't painting an existing output record tree. It probably isn't constructing the output record tree, for normal uses (unless you're dumping in thousands of lines at a time, or trying to do complex animation in a CLIM stream). 22:26:21 Okay, I'm back. 22:26:55 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:57 lispm: are there any documents describing CLOE as implementation in terms of features and choices? 22:26:58 No, no, that's not the main idea. The main idea is to make the code more modular by avoiding decisions about use when you display the state of your application. 22:27:07 (Symbolics CLOE that is) 22:27:10 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051160165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["good night"] 22:27:11 It very possibly could be the lame incremental redisplay machinery that tries to help automate things, but if so.. just don't use it, and manipulate the tree directly. 22:27:42 mathrick, very likely, but I don't know one 22:27:58 fair enough 22:28:08 beach: damn you, stop making things look interesting, now I have to scroll back and read it 22:28:14 I can see how hacking into McCLIM can basicly get you whatever you need (or would write yourself) 22:28:15 By just tagging what you display with a presentation type, you allow for other modules (written separately and independantly) to make use of those presentation types in ways that could not have been predicted. 22:28:38 mathrick: Sorry! :) 22:28:45 francogrex: IIRC, latest C standard allow to return structures. But I don't know if CFFI can handle that. 22:29:03 by gods! it's so long :( 22:29:16 francogrex: the safest API would be to give to the dll function a structure where to store the result integers. 22:29:22 mathrick, it is mentioned in the Lisp FAQ 22:29:28 mathrick: Your state of mind suggests to me that you need to spend another few days with my niece! 22:29:31 ... Maxima GUI? Didn't we already see some effort in that direction? 22:29:51 (Search for "climaxima", and ignore the hits for personal lubricant.) 22:29:54 francogrex: typedef struct { int a,b,c; } results; void doSomething(results* results); 22:29:59 francogrex: then you can easily allocate a temp results structure with cffi macros. 22:30:09 beach: with my poor understanding of clim, presentation types are there just to draw objects and to allow appropriate commands on them 22:30:12 beach: that's a very good option. but my state of minds also suggests I really need to work on my thesis code, and haven't done so in the past few days, which is immensely frustrating 22:30:13 pjb: yes structs are also an option. i was hoping to use pointers because I already had used pointers in my C to VBA 22:30:14 it would be interesting to see some screenshot from Macsyma on the Symbolics 22:30:16 so you lost me there :D 22:30:20 lispm: ah, lemme try that 22:30:30 pjb: I thought structures were allowed before too? 22:30:41 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-186-44.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:30:52 nyef: there is some code from raymond tom? nothing very GUI like 22:31:18 francogrex: well, you can do it if you use as I said a dynamically allocated memory block for your result, or a statically allocated one, but in the later case, that means you cannot call this function from several threads at once. 22:31:20 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-186-44.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 22:31:52 lispm: uhh, which of the lisp faqs would it be? 22:31:55 francogrex: and of course, in the former case you need to free that structure some time. 22:32:02 lispm: probably a CLI application 22:32:15 lispm: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/faqs/lang/lisp/part4/faq-doc-2.html this one? 22:32:16 mathrick: I understand, though my suggestion is not mutually exclusive. Imagine working on your stuff next to the lake, being fed excellent food from Skåne, and great Whiskey at the same time! 22:32:24 francogrex: that's why it's better to let the caller allocate it, and free it as it wants. 22:32:30 mathrick, yes 22:32:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-3-76.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:47 ziga`: I don't think so 22:32:48 jawhite [n=jolyonwh@203-158-55-225.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:33:00 I've been tempted to just shell out for the last version of macsyma for windows if Symbolics really does actually sell it like they say they do. 22:33:02 ok, that's a bit shorter than I hoped. I was particularly thinking of MOP, as the recent Symbolics Optimisations writeup suggested there was none 22:33:06 francogrex: notice that when you write results doSomething(); in general C compilers do just that: it generates code in the callers to allocate the results structure. 22:33:24 mathrick: symbolics CLOS has almost no MOP 22:33:27 anybody know what it's built on top of? 22:33:28 beach: I'm sure especially the wine and whiskey would make my productivity soar :) 22:33:39 but I can't deny the appeal of what you describe 22:33:44 mathrick: :) 22:33:46 ziga`: if you imagine a output record tree as something like the DOM, presentations let you take subtrees of that and link application objects directly into the tree along with a presentation type which can determine how you can interact with that output (are there commands triggered by clicking it, can you drag something onto it in the current context, etc.) 22:33:48 arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.77.2] has joined #lisp 22:33:50 brentb: it is a copy of old software 22:34:06 night 22:34:16 lispm: ah, that'd be consistent with what I guessed then. Thanks 22:34:25 arabesca: Sleep well. 22:34:52 mathrick: some people used PCL on the Symbolics for stuff that needed a MOP 22:35:07 do you know it if was descended into any currently alive implementation? Or failing that, any later implementation? 22:35:12 -!- alama [n=alama@a81-84-249-124.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [] 22:35:24 hefner: sounds neat 22:35:24 lispm: yes, but if it still works, the notebook interface looks nice and was well-regarded. 22:35:31 lispm: aye, though it seems fairly painful to run that alongside the native CLOS 22:35:33 mathrick: My niece no doubt has pictures of me pacing in the back yard inventing new stuff. It's a great environment for that kind of stuff. 22:35:33 pjb: yes I'll have to free but I'm not even there yet: another failed attempt: http://paste.lisp.org/display/91179 22:35:49 brentb: I think used CLOE 22:36:03 but "tempted" in this context means I am not having much trouble resisting. 22:36:13 mathrick: i'm failing miserably with the cffi and pointers thing we talked about yesterday 22:36:23 francogrex: howso? 22:36:34 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@88.174.11.170] has quit ["leaving"] 22:36:37 ziga`: it is, although I don't like turning that much control over to CLIM machinery 22:37:00 I can't seem to get it right and let the C function i wrote return multiple values 22:37:08 francogrex: it is a bit tricky, but nothing that can't be hacked out with a bit of REPL and having read the Texinfo intro document 22:37:14 sothing to do with scoping maybe what pjb says 22:37:24 francogrex: more details are needed 22:37:34 I need to catch up on what's been said 22:37:42 http://paste.lisp.org/display/91179 22:37:42 not that I wouldn't want that basic arrangement of an annotated output tree regardless, I just might prefer to mix raw event handlers into it for more flexibility 22:38:35 francogrex: that's a plain pointer, pjb was talking about structures 22:38:54 pointer return types *do* work in CFFI, most emphatically so 22:39:21 mathrick: yes he suggested structurs because mathrick: i know, i'm not doubting cffi, i'm doubting myself 22:40:18 francogrex: okay, what's ZARRAY then? 22:40:40 what you gave is not the code you run 22:41:02 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:41:22 ziga`: if you want to investigate the alpha channel stuff, there's some (fantastically messy) test code scattered around http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/mcclim/ which might serve as inspiration for something more reasonable 22:42:02 "fantastically messy", how could you resist hacking that! 22:42:09 hefner: thanks!! I see some nice screenshots :D 22:43:18 mathrick: easily. Instead of usable functions with a specific purpose, imagine a two or three page function that tries five different things, intermingled, only two of which work. 22:43:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-3-76.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 22:43:48 mathrick: just the name i attribute to the function called that is array_modify 22:44:04 even rgb subpixel font rendering 22:44:08 wow 22:44:36 oh, well, not really. I mean, I have a branch of mcclim around at home that does that, with some caveats, but that was just a test to figure out how to drive xrender in the right fashion. 22:44:48 it returning weird memory garbage like: 15992384 22:44:50 francogrex: once again, this time in English 22:45:06 francogrex: if you pass the size of the array, n, as parameter, then you should allocate that number of ints! malloc(sizeof(int)*n) 22:45:29 mathrick: easily. Instead of usable functions with a specific purpose, imagine a two or three page function that tries five different things, intermingled, only two of which work. <-- sounds like some projects I worked on 22:45:41 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:45:50 I've even hacked an app with a function 7KLOC long 22:46:16 which used GTK+ but then re-invented the entire layout algorithm of the thing inside a GtkFixed 22:46:20 it was rather hilarious 22:46:25 pjb: yes just did that but still retuens garnage 22:46:37 that was "garbage" 22:46:52 francogrex: sir, I'd like to remind you it's called array_modify 22:46:58 what array exactly is it modifying? 22:47:08 you don't understand C 22:47:14 hefner: even notes about theming - that's what I need :D you should put a link to some of this stuff on mcclim page 22:47:33 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.1.1"] 22:48:07 metawilm` [n=user@e179152212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:49:28 ziga`: there's a few good ideas in there, but I never came up with a satisfactory theme protocol. 22:50:12 francogrex: the problem is that your allocated memory that a points to is never initialized 22:51:08 francogrex: so that for loop is starting with garbage and multiplying garbage 22:51:10 mathrick: ok ok; you got me there. It's fixed. Fuhh 22:51:21 brentb: true 22:51:45 pjb: ok it works. hay. You all get a prize for being too patient 22:51:54 hefner: This has always bugged me: what's the matter with using a custom frame-manager to control theming? 22:53:13 nyef: My old standard objection to that was that frame-managers are coupled to ports in a way that shouldn't concern themes, but I think I concluded the answer was just to not do that. 22:53:22 -!- arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.77.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:13 Not to do which? 22:54:21 Couple, or use a custom frame-manager? 22:54:31 here is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/91179#1 22:54:50 (Or just use with-look-and-feel-realization somewhere devastating?) 22:54:55 I am 1% smarter today; i can sleep well 22:54:58 nyef: not to couple frame-managers to port types, or some similarly simple solution (I don't recall right now) 22:55:11 Ah, okay. 22:55:12 arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.42.112] has joined #lisp 22:55:27 -!- metawilm [n=user@e179149199.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:55:49 every time I see a screenshot of climacs, it looks much further along than what I got to install with asdf-install 22:55:52 I don't suppose McCLIM has managed to move to git, has it? 22:56:02 brentb: Rule three: Don't use asdf-install. 22:56:06 brentb: clbuild install climacs (: 22:56:15 nyef: Another objection is that you can't switch them around once the app starts, but more importantly they give you a low-level way of solving the problem (by changing which classes get used) without addressing any of the interesting problems (of how to reuse code between different themes and separate the appearance from the behavior) 22:56:45 Separate appearance from behavior? Sounds like a mixin to me. 22:57:17 Re-use code? Sounds like you could just add a parameter set by the realizer (setf (background-pixmap button) ...) 22:58:33 that's my cue I guess to gripe about configuration management and "release engineering" in the lisp community, but you guys have probably heard it all before 22:58:37 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:58:54 brentb: Heard it all before? Some of us have -said- it all before. 22:59:03 nyef: there's a bunch of aspects to it - filling background areas (in various styles), border appearances and widths, padding and alignment 23:00:47 hefner: Sure, but what I'm saying is that these things aren't insurmountable, and the hook is -right there-. 23:00:57 hefner: beirc screenshots look really amazing.. mcclim CAN look nice, too bad, browsing the mcclim site gets you the opposite impression.. 23:01:02 nyef: I'd prefer to have some 'appearance' object in a slot that can get dispatched on to control these things. If you'll argue that the frame manager can set those slots too, then sure, great, do it that way, but then you might as well just have it be an initarg to the frame manager and not have to subclass it per theme 23:01:36 francogrex: that code you posted, it throws away the memory allocated in the first malloc. it can only leak, because that pointer never goes anywhere that it could be de-allocated. 23:02:11 then it's just a matter of designing the protocol and reworking the existing gadgets to use it (at which point you can throw all the pixie code away, as it reimplements most of the gadgets from scratch, cut and paste style) 23:02:19 brentb: yes and it does leak, it works for a while then it starts giving segmentation vilation 23:02:45 what are you trying to do in the C code? 23:02:45 but just lette enjoy that it half worked today; i'll fix the rest tomorrow 23:02:47 :) 23:02:54 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:03:09 brentb: here nothing, just a toy example 23:03:09 hefner: Yes, exactly! 23:03:13 the other nice benefit of having a sane protocol for visual appearances is that it user-written gadgets can call upon it, so that the theme doesn't apply just to the built-in gadgets 23:03:44 But the hook is still the realizer. 23:03:52 nyef: if you're saying that this isn't really that hard and someone should just do it then sure, I agree, and can't explain why my couple ventures in that direction seemed to leave me puzzled 23:04:18 good night 23:04:18 you'll get a segmentation fault if you run over the 100th item in the array you're allocating. but the leak shouldn't cause a segfault. 23:04:29 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:04:49 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066867.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["this it is, and nothing more."] 23:04:58 the first malloc you can safely delete: it does nothing but throw away n*sizeof(int) bytes. 23:05:16 erm 23:05:26 over the 100th BYTE in the array you're allocating. 23:06:01 nyef: I still have delusions that apps might want to provide their own frame-managers, to implement an MDI-style interface (even though I hate those), or for embedding other CLIM apps as Climacs buffers, which is another reason I didn't want themes too tangled up with frame managers 23:06:11 Oh, right, the -other- reason that I don't like McCLIM is that it's a GPLish license. 23:06:33 Meh. It's one method. The frame managers can delegate if they want. 23:06:47 nyef: right 23:06:55 In fact, you could even have the default method delegate. 23:06:58 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-48.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:10 Well... maybe. 23:07:15 -!- francogrex [n=user@84.38-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:07:27 the McCLIM web site needs also a screenshot of the CLIM desktop ?!? 23:07:37 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:07:50 here is an old one: http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/CLIM-Desktop-20060124-1.png 23:08:31 poor man's lisp machine :) 23:08:55 probably not so poor 23:09:12 nice launcher 23:09:32 half the power, none of the stability, 100x times the hardware requirements :) 23:10:08 but runs 23:10:23 until there's an error 23:10:24 lispm: now if only that screenshort had StumpWM instead of Window Maker :D 23:11:19 p_l: if stumpwm would use McCLIM that would be even better 23:11:30 that listener with icons in the image is sexy 23:11:31 it also could have used the native font renderer 23:11:52 lispm: very nice! 23:11:57 Now there's an interesting challenge: Use McCLIM to write a frame manager that serves as an ICCCM-compliant X window manager. 23:12:07 note that the Webbrowser is also written in McCLIM 23:12:38 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:12:44 Closure, reigning king of the lisp hacks 23:12:51 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:08 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:11 can you plot things in the listener repl? 23:13:15 i mean, like mathematica does 23:13:27 arabesca: sure, if you write a function that draws plots 23:13:35 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:41 arabesca: Sure, just write a function to draw a plot as a presentation. 23:13:44 (yeah, yeah, that really should be built in. I'll get to it sometime in 2015) 23:13:54 that would be great ^^ 23:14:27 ziga`` [n=user@BSN-176-215-6.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:29 And, btw, this is -exactly- the sort of scenario that has got me thinking about GUIs again and CLIM in particular: Outputting a graph plot inline like that. 23:14:36 arabesca: like this http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/lispm-clim-scigraph-2.png 23:14:42 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-75-7-4-247.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:14:43 I plot things in the listener all the time, but always in specific, unflexible ways 23:15:28 bah, outdone by an ancient lisp machine! 23:15:29 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:15:48 lispm genera? 23:15:56 how? 23:15:58 yes, CLIM on genera 23:16:23 arabesca: There are two methods. The first is to have a real Lisp Machine. The second is emulation. 23:16:28 there is a package called Scigraph for plotting 23:16:39 Scigraph has a McCLIM version 23:16:42 but does genera run outside lisp machines? 23:16:51 needs a hacker to bring it into shapes 23:16:52 oh i didn't know there were emulators 23:17:06 arabesca: I even think you can run one on linux. 23:17:07 arabesca : that's not an emulator 23:17:21 but you can use that plotting code with McCLIM 23:17:34 Emulators are no fun. I own the real thing, know how to use it, and still couldn't get around the damn emulator. 23:17:49 (or didn't care enough, I'm not sure) 23:18:11 I got the emulator to work, but it is buggy, so useless 23:18:12 Yeah, emulation was fun for me right up until just before I got nevermore working. 23:18:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:20 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:22 scigraph is more than just plotting, isn't it? 23:18:45 scigraph has various plots and the infrastructure for it 23:19:06 from the screenshots I've seen it looked like (now I'm dating myself) Fortner Transform 23:19:06 or am I thinking of a different lisp machine app? 23:19:20 http://openmap.bbn.com/~kanderso/lisp/scigraph/ 23:19:50 i would buy one, although the last time i saw one it was like 10 or 15 years ago 23:19:52 unfortunately Ken Anderson died a few years ago 23:20:07 does it have facilities, for example, for reading data of a line plotted on an image? 23:20:09 erm 23:20:12 data off a line 23:20:16 lispm: Scigraph copy is icluded with McCLIM 23:20:30 yes, there were some reports of bit rot 23:20:31 couldn't get it to work, yet 23:20:54 I removed some of the old stuff from my copy of Scigraph 23:21:12 I gave a copy of that code to 'Sikander' (?) 23:21:36 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.216.249] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:42 maybe somebody is interested to hack that version for McCLIM - it gets rid of the compatibility to DW and CLIM 1 23:21:51 unfortunately ;-) 23:22:18 but that might be more useful to McCLIM hackers 23:24:46 losing DW compatibility is unfortunate, I was betting on an ExpressWindows revival, shortly after cltl1 character attributes are reinstated in all the major CLs by popular demand 23:25:13 ah, I was thinking of imgcalc I think: just found the screenshot of that. 23:26:38 http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/imagcalc.html 23:27:40 that's the page 23:29:28 imagcalc is pre-clim 23:29:47 image calc appears to be pre-juraisic 23:30:08 it is now 'Freedius' 23:30:44 http://www.ai.sri.com/pubs/files/1543.pdf 23:32:16 interesting 23:32:27 what happened to scope? 23:32:44 nothing, AFAIK 23:33:16 Fade: sure, it predated the movie "Jurassic Park", but I'm not sure how that's relevant 23:33:44 given the right equipment, Imagcalc was not that bad 23:34:00 just a few hundred times slower than what we have now 23:34:28 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:34:56 it looks comparable in capability to what I used in the mid-to-late-nineties for that kind of thing, and I assume it would be scriptable in a language I don't loathe 23:35:06 one thing I do like about old DW interfaces is their lack of whatever you call the drop-down buttons. just print all the options and highlight the selected one. strangely elegant. 23:35:58 hefner: that's a nice design yeah - too bad it's gone from modern UIs 23:36:18 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:49 ziga``: you saw my screenshot page, probably 23:37:07 hefner: I know that CAD/CAM/CAE and some other stuff is quite happy on Linux with OpenGL... at least some of that stuff is I think available nowadays only on linux <-- really? 23:37:19 lispm: the genera screenshot 23:37:34 last time I had anything approaching a remote need for a CAD, I ended up with the conclusion it's absolutely impossible on Linux 23:37:41 it was several years ago, tho 23:38:05 ziga`` : http://lispm.dyndns.org/symbolics-ui-examples/symbolics-ui-examples.html 23:38:17 screenshots of typical DW and CLIM apps 23:38:37 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:48 lispm: thanks for handing out porn 23:39:00 mathrick: I can't imagine. though I've heard some chip design stuff went from unix workstations to linux, almost everything in the CAD and CAE world went from unix to windows NT in the late nineties 23:39:04 mathrick: if I had to guess (and I do), it would be high end and obscure stuff that used to run on Suns, SGIs, HPs, Alphas, whatever, and never got ported to PCs, but where the users were desperate enough to put up with Linux (and the market small enough not to present a replacement?) 23:39:17 mathrick: some hi-end packages are supported on Linux (but I mean *high* end). There's also some stuff that was previously SGI-exclusive that is now available only on linux x86-64 23:39:21 ziga``: one of my hobbies, vintage Lisp porn 23:39:27 :) 23:39:32 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:40:16 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:40:17 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:23 greetings 23:40:58 brentb: CATIA, ProEngineer, these two afaik work on Linux (and still have versions for other unices). Also, a lot of CAE stuff is available on both *nix and windows (though some new GUIs tend to be unavailable, like ANSYS DesignSpace) 23:41:32 some hi-end video stuff is linux-only (or SGI, if you go with older versions) 23:41:37 and then in my world, there's crap like EAGLE (ugh) that is "cross-platform" 23:42:25 schme: I got clbuild and clozure working acceptably now ^_^ 23:42:43 I didn't know ProE is available on Linux or that they still supported any other Unix but I haven't been anywhere that ran ProE at all since 2002 or so. 23:43:32 Sweet! Nouveau supports KMS on basically everything, with suspend/resume, and the 3d stuff is apparently coming together as well. 23:44:43 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:44:54 p_l: It has the additional advantage that I am trying to get the VN software industry to be interested in productivity, and CL would be one way. <-- VN? Visual Novels? :) 23:45:08 I look at the feature sets of modern graphic hardware and fear free drivers are basically screwed and will never catch up until the hardware has plateaued for ten years and no one cares anymore =/ 23:45:33 well, yeah 23:45:50 p_l: oh, so it's all the incredibly-expensive things you don't know if you haven't worked with it for 15 years 23:45:54 that's less interesting 23:46:36 mathrick: that VN was Vietnam 23:46:58 mathrick: well, you might see them if you go into movie industry 23:47:10 also, the vector processing capabilities of the last generation or two of video cards are one of the first big commodity hardware evolutions to come down the pike in quite a while 23:47:32 hefner: drivers for which platform?, the vendors seem to be getting slightly better at supporting 'the other OS' 23:48:20 or is it some specialist graphic hardware 23:48:55 Heh! The last row on the nouveau feature matrix is "OpenCL", listed as "TODO". 23:50:34 nyef: heh, there you go. 23:51:22 Honestly, though, as soon as they say "DONE" on the 3d features and power management for the nv4x series, I'll try to switch. 23:51:35 -!- davazp` [n=user@103.Red-88-25-187.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 23:52:00 Maybe even just the power management (as unlikely as that is). 23:52:03 OpenCL already is available for nVidia (with developer drivers, it's in beta) and in ATi's Stream SDK (it also includes x86/x86-64 backend, like OSX and unlike nVidia). IBM supports OpenCL on AIX with Cell 23:52:38 how do I check wether path is a directory? 23:52:58 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:01 wakeup^: "path" in what sense? 23:53:15 Do you have a string, a CL pathname object, or something else? 23:53:25 alama [n=alama@a81-84-249-124.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 23:54:04 a string 23:54:23 Guthur: Linux, but I don't mean the vendor proprietary drivers. I'll admit I'm not following the situation closely, as I pretty much settled on using Nvidia hardware and their explodadrivers six or seven years ago and haven't seen reason to deviate. 23:54:37 Okay, so you have this string, and it's presumed to name some object in the filesystem? 23:56:09 On SBCL, it looks like I can call PROBE-FILE with the string and get a pathname back. If the pathname object has no name component then it's a directory. 23:56:19 ... maybe. 23:56:42 *fusss* is doing his best to get native Genhash support in Redis (http://cdr.eurolisp.org/document/2/genhash.html) 23:56:59 Hm. Works even for "/home/nyef/.emacs". Looks good at least for SBCL. 23:57:04 lobbying for Lisp friendly backend in one of the hottest databases out there 23:57:11 you can spare yourself a lot of future pain by never using pathnames for anything, and running as fast as possible toward the nearest posix library 23:57:15 hefner: i tend to go with which ever is most cost effective at the time. OpenCL might be interesting, haven't looked at it in detail though, 23:58:09 Stick to cl-fad and you wont lose too much 23:58:40 sure, if you live in a lisp-friendly sandbox 23:58:50 Oh! I know how to get some useful information out of this bloody spectrogram. Load it into the GIMP and use -that- to find the frame numbers! 23:59:14 hefner: since when is sbcl lisp-hostile? 23:59:23 *fusss* stay in the sandbox ye quiters! 23:59:32 that does not compute