00:00:06 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:00:50 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:53 Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has joined #lisp 00:04:13 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:04:17 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:45 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:41 i love this statement in the pcl intro: 00:05:42 If, after reading this book, you still think Common Lisp is no better than your current favorite languages, you'll be in an excellent position to explain exactly why. 00:08:02 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["bed time"] 00:08:57 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 00:09:45 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:58 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 00:13:30 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:06 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:14:45 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-155-138.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 00:17:45 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 00:18:29 -!- Eko [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:20:56 "During this meeting more than half of our codebase got changed and multiple outstanding and intrusive patches got merged." <-- yeah, that sounds just like a mail I'd like to get from the project maintainers coming back from a conf 00:21:00 ahaas [n=ahaas@71.59.145.125] has joined #lisp 00:22:03 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:23:08 mathrick: heh. Depends what kind of project and what kind of release/coding they do 00:23:58 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 00:24:56 p_l: http://pvaneynd.livejournal.com/132182.html 00:25:35 still, it says "Provisions have been made in dak for things such as bootstrapping a new architecture where binary uploads from porters may be necessary in order to get going." 00:25:39 can't that be used? 00:26:39 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 00:27:00 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has quit [Client Quit] 00:27:21 wjat 00:27:41 what's a good, play-around cl omplement i can use for farting around on emacs/linux? 00:28:00 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:29:07 s/omplement/implementation/ 00:29:45 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:07 yates: depends, SBCL is fun because it's well-supported and targetted by pretty much everyone 00:30:17 dto [n=dto@24-241-21-157.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:23 There's also CCL as well. It now runs on 32 bit linux as well. 00:32:26 mathrick: thanks 00:32:41 Both are supported by Slime. 00:32:54 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C898.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:32:57 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C898.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:30 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:49 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-5-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:36:13 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:12 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.85.130] has joined #lisp 00:38:40 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:43:15 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@70.249.156.223] has joined #lisp 00:43:19 caoliver: i don't see an rpm package for ccl under fedora 11 - is it simply called ccl or something else? 00:45:57 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:54 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-182-236.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 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[n=david@190.173.167.228] has joined #lisp 02:16:00 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@ip-118-90-93-195.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:16:06 -!- dto [n=dto@24-241-21-157.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:16:27 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:06 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.85.130] has left #lisp 02:22:57 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:25:24 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@ip-118-90-93-195.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:26:09 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 02:28:16 egoz [i=Egoz@114.125.140.117] has joined #lisp 02:29:19 can anyone give a brief description of bordeaux-threads:with-timeout 02:30:48 never mind 02:34:16 hello, I have a question, anybody knows why when I start the lisp interpreter, the processor starts working and heating a lot? 02:34:56 dto [n=dto@24.241.21.157] has joined #lisp 02:35:53 satiricon: what Lisp? how do you start it? 02:36:49 the interpreter 02:37:06 sorry I am not a english speaker 02:37:11 let me see 02:37:22 satiricon: Ok, what do you type to cause this to happen? 02:37:26 Guthur: A brief description? "Extremely dangerous -- don't use." 02:38:14 nothing in special, it happens sometimes and sometimes it doesnt 02:38:22 nyef seriously? how bad could it be? hehe 02:38:29 yates: Sorry. Was on another screen. I don't know if any distro bundles Clozure CL. I downloaded it via SVN. 02:38:35 satiricon: what do you type to start your interpreter? 02:38:54 im ussing the interpreter that came by default with ubuntu 02:38:58 How bad? Arbitrary invariant violation, for starters. 02:39:11 satiricon: can you tell us what it's called? 02:39:16 mtd_ [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 02:39:16 (Massive file-descriptor leakage in some cases, for example.) 02:39:20 im ussing it with emacs 02:39:26 yates: look at http://trac.clozure.com/ccl 02:39:35 lisp slime 02:39:38 ? 02:40:07 satiricon: SLIME is an emacs mode that works as an "IDE" for Common Lisp - the implementation itself is probably clisp, though 02:40:29 oh yes it is common lisp 02:40:35 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:40:44 im very sorry im a total newie with lisp 02:40:56 is a whole new world 02:41:22 clisp is a name of an implementation, just like Steel Bank Common Lisp (SBCL), ClozureCL (CCL), LispWorks (LW), Allegro Common Lisp (ACL) etc. 02:41:24 Does ubuntu have SBCL in their repos? 02:41:25 nyef: they all sound scary 02:41:50 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:51 Guthur: Hence "extremely dangerous -- don't use." 02:41:59 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:12 -!- egoz [i=Egoz@114.125.140.117] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:42:14 I dont know I dont think so 02:42:15 satiricon: what does (lisp-implementation-type) return? 02:42:22 let me see 02:42:35 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:42:35 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:42:35 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:42:35 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:42:35 -!- tvaalen [n=tvaal@209.9.227.203] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:42:35 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216.80.120.145] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:42:58 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:43:47 Just "CMU Common Lisp" 02:44:08 I'm very surprised 02:44:27 which version of ubuntu are you using? 02:44:38 and when I start the interpreter ir says " Python version 1.1, VM version Intel x86" 02:44:53 I dont know what python have to do with lisp =P 02:45:09 python is the name of the compiler that underlies cmu common lisp and sbcl 02:45:10 ubuntu 9.04 02:45:21 it was here first, so I'm told 02:45:34 ho, I see =0 02:45:47 I didn't even know that cmu was packaged for ubuntu 02:45:51 live and learn 02:45:59 ajajaj yes it is 02:46:12 i just typed apt-get install lisp 02:46:30 or something like that, dont remeber 02:46:48 well I vas just curious, It stops heating when I kill lisp 02:47:16 and when I restart it, it goes along fairly well for a while 02:47:39 I'm afraid I don't know anything about the cmu environment. 02:47:45 others may 02:48:04 Not merely CMUCL, but whatever damage has been done in packaging. 02:48:04 how does one do a return-from an anonymous function 02:48:07 (Maybe it's doing something stupid with C-L-C?) 02:48:17 satiricon: check your cpu usage when you run CMUCL 02:48:25 (for example with top) 02:48:25 Guthur: Use a BLOCK and RETURN-FROM that. 02:48:39 p_l, ok I will 02:48:56 p_l: it's been a while since I used CMUCL. What's up with the system load? 02:49:26 nyef: cheers 02:50:07 now the interpreter is waiting and the system is just ok, i ll start messing with the code to see if a can reproduce de problem 02:50:50 caoliver: I dunno, just doing Standard Operating Procedure :) 02:50:53 if it was the first time you ran it, and/or you interrupted the system, it may have been compiling various components. 02:51:19 satiricon: btw, CMUCL isn't an interpreter, but a compiler (it actually compiles to native code) 02:51:27 indeed 02:51:49 although I was under the impression that the cmu cl implementation was mostly dead 02:51:56 in that monty pythonesque sense. 02:52:08 p_l: it still includes an interpreter (or two?). 02:52:11 I see, but if it was like that it was taking to much Im just a newie so I dont write big programs 02:52:30 Fade: And here I was thinking "mostly dead" in the "princess bride" sense. 02:52:47 ("Go through his pockets and search for loose change.") 02:52:50 I think SBCL it today's CMUCL. 02:52:55 wich implemetation you recomend to use to learn the language? 02:53:09 wich implemetation do you recomend to use to learn the language? 02:53:11 that also works 02:53:14 SBCL or CCL. Free + source code. 02:53:25 and prolly better at that 02:53:25 :) 02:53:49 mmmm and how can I know wich I am using right now? 02:53:52 most of the people here run sbcl 02:54:15 HO, im running CMUCL, sorry =P 02:54:21 you already used the (lisp-implementation-type) function to tell us cmu 02:54:27 which is, frankly, a surprising answer.. 02:54:43 didnt know, is old? bad? 02:55:01 it's a conformant common lisp 02:55:26 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@ip-118-90-93-195.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:55:26 but one that isn't as active as others these days. sbcl started from the cmu sources. 02:55:32 Surprising in that SBCL is more strongly maintained and easier to bring up on Linux. 02:55:40 Yup. 02:55:48 mmm I see 02:56:03 if you already have it running, then I guess you're done. 02:56:17 have at it. :) 02:56:27 but SBCL is a common lisp standard compliant implemetation? 02:56:31 but sbcl is the most common implementation around here. 02:56:35 yes 02:56:44 just askin cause all the docs I got are about clisp 02:56:45 What do you get from (lisp-implementation-version)? 02:56:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:57:05 "CMU Common Lisp" 02:57:41 lisp-implementation-version 02:57:44 not -type 02:57:56 Clisp is a somewhat unfortunate moniker as it can refer to CMUCL and a slower quirkier byte code interpreted lisp. 02:58:07 ho, sorry 02:58:46 "CVS release-19a 19a-release-20040728 + minimal debian patches" 02:59:41 i don't know man. 02:59:53 i'm frankly astounded you have a running CMU system. lol 03:00:03 ajajajaja 03:00:11 thank you anyways =) 03:00:34 Im still not a pro so I can stay with this by now 03:01:04 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@ip-118-90-93-195.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:01:24 i'll get back to the reading, thanks!! 03:01:26 well, cmu is fine for learning I guess 03:01:33 have fun 03:01:34 I remember building CMUCL from source back in the late '90s, and it was very painful. That's why I'm surprised that Canonical hasn't moved to SBCL. 03:02:09 there are sbcl packages in ubuntu 03:02:12 i know that for sure. 03:02:23 i'm pretty sure I've never seen any cmu packages, though 03:02:45 Hmm... My only ubuntu box is on loan. 03:02:45 and I can use emacs+slime with sbcl? 03:02:56 Yes! Most of us do! 03:03:04 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:20 but you see that this implemetation have the debian signature 03:03:41 and Im pretty sure I didnt compiled it from source XD 03:04:02 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:11 maybe I have stumbled with a old, hidden package =P 03:04:27 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 03:04:37 That is one thing I tend to dislike about tightly packaged distros. They tend to dissuade people from building stuff out of tree. 03:04:48 satiricon: it's definitely an old package (from july 2004). 03:05:53 =P ajajaja 03:06:08 satiricon: are you running this on your own box? Do you have admin access? 03:06:26 yes, I do 03:07:39 Ok. You can sudo -s and install SBCL into /usr/local from the root shell if you're comfy with that, and then you can have a fairly up-to-date version. 03:08:28 Or you can go with a local install. 03:08:52 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:09:12 Ok. Yes. I tend to have compiled in paths rather than use SBCL_HOME, hence I forgot that. 03:09:21 yes Ill do that if the problem happens again, thanks for the advice =) 03:09:43 it is very likely to happen again anyways XD 03:09:50 vng [n=user@123.20.87.189] has joined #lisp 03:09:53 thank you very much 03:10:04 I ll get back to the clisp books 03:10:12 satiricon: just in case: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/ 03:10:28 hello 03:10:28 thanks ;) 03:10:40 Greets! 03:10:45 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:10:56 thanks, bye! 03:12:44 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:12:49 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:45 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 03:15:45 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 03:15:45 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 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[n=jcw@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 03:55:33 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:55:37 i'm interested in trying out plsql for some database applications 03:55:43 -!- jcw [n=jcw@75.131.194.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:53 _Pb [n=jcw@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 03:56:20 i'm a little unclear - does plsql include a gui? i.e., does it include the ability to display datasheets, buttons, and other widgets? 03:57:00 Good morning! 03:57:12 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-79-213.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Success] 03:57:16 beach: good morning - where are you? 03:57:35 yates: Where I always am at this time of day; at home. 03:58:05 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:24 reminds me of the one about the blond with her house on fire who answers the emergency operator's question "How do we get there" with "Duh! Big red truck?" 03:59:30 Oh, you want to know, like, where I am? Well /whois beach says "...Bordeaux...fr". 04:00:10 irc doesn't require greetings, either. 04:00:31 real life doesn't require greetings either, for that matter. 04:00:38 yates: I say good morning so that minion will give me memos if I have any. 04:01:02 and here I thought you were just a friendly, sociable guy :( 04:01:03 -!- _Pb [n=jcw@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:01:11 Ralith: Nah! :) 04:01:41 beach: there was someone looking for vietnamese lispers earlier 04:01:52 Fare: vng is here. 04:02:17 Anyone know a nice algorithm for splitting a list into equal sublists? 04:02:32 equal sized, I mean. 04:02:46 Fare, oh, right, that was tessier. He speaks (or at least writes) vietnamese. 04:03:01 sorry! I mean clsql! 04:03:08 ahaas: that's seriously underspecified 04:03:20 _Pb [n=jcw@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 04:03:38 ahaas: put every other element in one list and the others in another. 04:03:50 beach: yeah, i'm here! 04:04:14 vng? 04:04:56 ahaas, you mean (subseq x 0 (/ (length x) 2) ? 04:05:12 pkhuong: I'd like to write a function that takes a list and a number-of-partitions, and the result is a list of sublists, where the inner elements are in the same order as the original list. 04:05:13 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.237.162] has joined #lisp 04:05:19 Fare: ??? 04:05:34 -!- necroforest [n=jarred@pool-96-255-62-122.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:05:34 ahaas: what's the difficulty? 04:05:46 ahaas: it's a trivial exercise in recursion. 04:05:51 ahaas: sounds like a trivial recursive function. 04:05:54 vng: tessier was looking for Vietnamese Lispers before. 04:05:55 Fare: can't tell the length of the sublists ahead of time. 04:06:06 Fare: I've just been considering different ways to do it and none seemed very elegant. 04:06:06 does anyone know of a fusion of a gui, clsql (or something similar) and lisp to do database applications? 04:06:09 ahaas: maybe you need to learn about higher-order functions and passing around continuation functions, though. 04:06:15 beach: oh, :) 04:07:10 vng: anh là ngi Vit Nam phi không? 04:07:14 beach: Is there any shortcut to highlight parentheses in emacs? 04:07:37 -!- _Pb [n=jcw@75.131.194.186] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:50 Fare: yes, co j k Fare? 04:08:13 vng: I don't know, but highlighting parentheses is usually not the right thing to do. You want to forget about them as soon as possible and rely on indentation instead. 04:08:22 anh  au ? 04:08:52 (that's as much .vi as I can speak) 04:08:55 Fare: Tp HCM 04:09:11 Fare: AKA Sài Gòn. 04:09:14 Sài Gòn. 04:09:42 Fare: con anh? 04:10:11 I was born in Napoleonville. Uh, I mean Paris. 04:10:37 heh 04:10:43 :) 04:12:08 Paris has been ruled by three Empires: Napoleon Ier's, Napoleon III's, and Hitler's. Maybe we should rename it Hitlerville in honor of our last imperial ruler. 04:12:20 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:54 vng: tôi sng  Boston. 04:13:00 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.194.59] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:13:15 Fare: Wow! You even get the accents right! 04:14:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:23 -!- dto [n=dto@24.241.21.157] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:14:35 Fare: forgive me, because i can type the accents in emacs 04:14:51 vng: you can or you cannot? 04:14:54 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-71-134-227-115.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:00 Fare: *can not 04:15:03 :) 04:15:06 vng: M-x set-input-methodvietnamese-viqr 04:15:26 vng: There is also another vietnamese input method, but I haven't used it. It could be the one that you usually use. 04:16:31 vng: yes you can. Use Mule. C-u C-\ vietnamese-viqr 04:16:55 cm n beach, Fare 04:17:03 Then C-\ to toggle MULE w/o choosing the input method 04:17:28 vng: Congratulations! 04:17:31 beach: I got them right? Thanks! 04:22:52 mutew [n=mutew@69.251.40.32] has joined #lisp 04:27:52 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:31:57 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@75.52.254.21] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:34:04 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:35 -!- hugod [n=hugod@76.66.185.94] has quit [] 04:46:15 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.86.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:47:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:48:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has joined #lisp 04:51:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has quit [Client Quit] 04:51:29 huangjs [n=user@192.51.54.129] has joined #lisp 04:52:44 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:52 sellout: herep 04:54:06 gigamonkey: t 04:55:05 dto [n=dto@96.252.62.25] has joined #lisp 04:55:36 Hope you're not too busy with family this weekend. 04:55:47 3000 wpd doable? 04:56:01 gigamonkey: Totally doable! 04:56:12 Future in-laws totally onboard :) 04:56:21 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:57:16 Whoa, this seems bad from Emacs: "let*: Invalid byte code in /usr/share/emacs/23.1/lisp/emacs-lisp/cl.elc" 04:58:53 Time to reboot emacs and see if life gets better. Back in a bit. 04:58:56 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:59:26 gigamonkey: I still have more to get in tonight, too. So wpd will be a bit lower going forward, and I think I finally hit that point where the story starts rolling out. 04:59:33 bah. 04:59:44 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:00:57 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 05:01:36 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:45 sellout: I'm back. Saw your comment in the logs. 05:02:26 Heh. My story is doing the opposite of rolling. 05:02:33 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@173.67.109.95] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:03:22 But I suspect I'll be able to drag myself across the finish line. 05:03:27 btw, who needed that trick with sending mail against SAS? :D 05:05:29 Fare: i've decided to wait until January to do my demo. 05:05:42 Fare: do you think you could bump it to 15 minutes? it's something of a drive... 05:07:48 Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has joined #lisp 05:08:08 gigamonkey: Last night I thought I should do some sort of prologue to give a bit of background. I wrote it this morning, and it opened up a new plotline that really ties things together. So now it's just getting all those pieces into words. 05:08:22 dto: ok 05:08:29 dto: send me your blurb 05:08:49 can even do 25 minutes + Q&A. But you'll be timed, and not more. 05:08:58 i can fill that. 05:09:13 we should talk about what you would like me to focus on . private message? 05:09:16 advice: rehearse your speech once. If you want I can be your audience for rehearsal. 05:09:57 -!- satiricon [n=david@190.173.167.228] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:10:28 what i generally do is make an orgmode outline of what i'm going to cove3r 05:10:37 crink [n=crink@210.110.159.200] has joined #lisp 05:10:40 plus, i have an HD cam I can record my event with 05:11:32 do you want me to focus on the library, or just demonstrate gameplay and show corresponding code examples? 05:11:49 can i talk a little bit about the lisp games community 05:12:31 sellout: I had a similar thought and wrote a prolog which was pretty cool but which fits hardly at all with the other 40k words I have. 05:13:04 prologue even. 05:13:30 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has joined #lisp 05:13:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has joined #lisp 05:20:04 -!- trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-058-210-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:24 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp140.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 05:20:28 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:22:41 gigamonkey: I was wondering what that thought could be. 05:30:29 pkhuong: what sellout was talking about, writing a prologue for our in-progress NaNoWriMo novels. 05:32:11 gigamonkey: in another context, "a prolog in 40k words" would probably be an interesting challenge. 05:32:50 Heh. 05:33:06 How big is Norvig's prolog in PAIP? 05:33:29 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:34:06 gigamonkey: counting in kilowords suggests a rather more primitive runtime than CL (: 05:34:17 dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-156-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:34 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.134.79] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 05:36:42 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 05:42:10 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-10-107.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:50:23 -!- mutew [n=mutew@69.251.40.32] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:59 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 05:51:27 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-71-134-227-115.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [] 05:53:06 -!- sctb [n=sctb@68.144.69.5] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.1.1"] 05:56:39 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 05:56:49 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@71.197.180.162] has joined #lisp 06:03:12 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95.24.126.105] has joined #lisp 06:06:45 hefner_ [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-132.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 06:07:06 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-132.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:07:10 -!- hefner_ is now known as hefner 06:08:29 jleija [n=jleija@74.243.224.205] has joined #lisp 06:08:41 saikatc [n=saikatc@98.210.192.23] has joined #lisp 06:09:09 -!- jleija [n=jleija@74.243.224.205] has quit [Client Quit] 06:16:49 myrkraverk`` [n=johann@85-220-127-231.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 06:18:06 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:19:21 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:32 -!- Fare [n=Fare@74.76.189.128] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:20:46 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 06:22:25 happy turkey day #lisp 06:25:11 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-124-172.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:26:48 More likely cheese soufle day. Have no particular plans. 06:26:58 'nite all 06:27:04 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 06:31:30 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has quit ["leaving"] 06:31:55 splittist [n=David@188.62.245.30] has joined #lisp 06:31:58 morning 06:32:42 redblue [i=star@207.253.108.37] has joined #lisp 06:39:00 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:41:14 hello splittist 06:41:35 What do I do after I edited a file containing GIT conflicts? 06:42:21 I mean, I fixed the conflict, and GIT told me to commit, but that gives the error: cannot do a partial commit during a merge. 06:42:43 Ah, commit -a works. 06:43:54 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-224.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:43:59 Thanks guys! :) 06:44:47 maus [n=maus@222.253.90.42] has joined #lisp 06:45:22 Good afternoon! 06:45:26 hello maus 06:45:30 hello maus 06:45:43 hello spiaggia 06:45:48 hello vng 06:45:58 good morning 06:47:38 spiaggia: how are you doing? You have classes today? 06:54:05 hey frodef 06:54:33 maus: I am *taking* a class in networking this morning from 8 to 10. During that time, I'll be on my laptop as `plage'. 06:54:46 hi spiaggia 06:54:57 back to school? :) 06:55:00 maus: And in 9 hours or so, I have my weekly class in Vietnamese. 06:55:12 frodef: I would be student forever if I could afford it. 06:55:17 good morning 06:55:25 Anyway, off to class... 06:55:34 spiaggia: I tried too, but I couldn't :) 06:56:11 ASau [n=user@77.246.231.88] has joined #lisp 06:56:27 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:41 spiaggia: you are so busy today :). How about your Vietnamese? Is it interested?! :) The Teacher off the class is a Vietnamese? 07:02:36 teur1 [n=Golovnev@212.98.161.178] has joined #lisp 07:05:02 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:05:06 Good morning! 07:07:29 maus: Yes, she is from Hanoi. 07:09:03 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:10:37 kirkegaardvark [n=user@ip98-169-28-227.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:38 plage: wow.. people say that the pronunciation of Hanoi people is the most exact. 07:13:20 Fare [n=Fare@cpe-74-76-189-128.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:18 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 07:15:29 maus: That's what I hear. 07:18:24 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.134.66.143] has joined #lisp 07:18:29 -!- kirkegaardvark [n=user@ip98-169-28-227.dc.dc.cox.net] has left #lisp 07:18:41 attila_lendvai, hi 07:19:04 hello 07:19:23 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:57 Fare, you remember the last obstacle?... can xcvb now build using a different sbcl than it itself was built with? 07:20:02 I haven't advanced xcvb at all in over a week 07:20:05 well, not obstacle 07:20:09 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@75.85.132.170] has quit [] 07:20:16 attila: I believe xcvb can build using a different sbcl 07:20:37 though you may have to make sure you do the right thing with SBCL_HOME 07:20:47 i'm also busy with other stuff... and we need to please the customer, too... :/ 07:20:57 perhaps define it in the executable script that's on top of your PATH 07:21:05 i'll play around a little bit again keeping an eye on this 07:21:37 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:21:41 Fufie [n=poff@80.203.160.34] has joined #lisp 07:22:33 yeah, my problem was that my sbcl inside slime starts from ~/workspace/sbcl/ and it's not in my path. so, loading xcvb master inside breaks when it tries to load the fasl's the slave built (which invokes sbcl from $PATH) 07:23:19 i mean, not loading breaks, but when master wants to load slave's (different version) emitted fasl's 07:24:19 Fare, so, xcvb master should make sure that it instructs the slave properly to which path sbcl start from... 07:26:32 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@190.230.89.185] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:33:07 drwhat [n=d@98.225.208.183] has joined #lisp 07:34:45 mrSpec [n=Spec@89.74.179.78] has joined #lisp 07:35:28 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has joined #lisp 07:36:55 maus: How is work with the GUI going? 07:37:29 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-156-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 07:38:05 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:31 -!- Fare [n=Fare@cpe-74-76-189-128.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:39:33 plage: we are trying to understand parameters in your example and applying it to our case 07:40:38 -!- drwhat [n=d@98.225.208.183] has quit [Client Quit] 07:40:52 drwhat [n=d@98.225.208.183] has joined #lisp 07:42:08 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:42:26 -!- drwhat is now known as drwho 07:42:37 maus: I guess you are not used to functions as parameters to other functions? 07:44:37 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.252] has joined #lisp 07:47:50 plage: yes, they are a little bit strange and hard, we keep studying about it. 07:51:53 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d2de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:58 good morning 07:53:54 hello serichsen 07:56:31 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:56:54 good morning 07:58:40 is there a form of read-line that reads a line into a vector? 07:59:12 hello mvilleneuve 07:59:43 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:00:21 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:28 sebyte [n=sebyte@vps203.linuxvps.org] has joined #lisp 08:01:45 madnificent: a vector of characters? 08:02:14 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:29 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 08:03:29 dysinger [n=dysinger@75.85.132.170] has joined #lisp 08:04:26 splittist: basically, I want to reduce the amount of strings which are created in the algorithm. I'd like to reuse the string-objects (or put the characters in another reusable format which I can print and compare) 08:05:04 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.111.252] has joined #lisp 08:05:14 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.111.252] has quit [Client Quit] 08:05:40 if you're microoptimizing string reading code, you shouldn't be using read-line (and you shouldn't be using characters, if you're really serious) 08:05:48 morning all, if anyone has a moment to glance at this: 08:05:52 sebyte pasted "Two macros and a wrapper function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91129 08:06:09 i'd be really grateful 08:06:20 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@75.85.132.170] has quit [Client Quit] 08:06:36 hefner: it's for fun, mostly. But the input format is in ascii characters 08:06:58 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:07:59 Eko [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:19 I mean to say that you shouldn't be using CL characters (and various conversions, character encodings, and other modern bloated idiocy), versus treating characters as binary data 08:09:58 hefner: I could actually use it as binary data, but I'd still need to print out part of them... (which I could do in binary format too, I guess) 08:10:16 hefner: any pointers on how to read and split the records then? 08:10:33 no, I'm probably giving you bad advice. 08:10:48 hefner: :P 08:11:01 it is still fair though, I'm spending 20% of my time in garbage collection right now 08:11:11 how big is the file? 08:12:18 in total, I have about 2G of data, I think 08:12:51 sebyte annotated #91129 "correction" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91129#1 08:12:53 so my bottleneck currently is probably the disk anyways... I would've liked to be able to do it without much GC though :) 08:14:02 madnificent: are you processing these 'strings' absolutely serially (ie. once you have dealt with string x, and are dealing with string x+1, string x is never needed again? 08:14:15 s/?/)?/ 08:14:21 splittist: yes, for this subtask it is 08:14:23 madnificent: anyway, the idea is to create an array as a buffer and use read-sequence to slurp in big chunks of data. either as (unsigned-byte 8) or (I think) base-char 08:14:37 splittist: I use objects, which I reuse too, so that's been nice :) 08:15:18 hefner: and then delimit them, and write the delimited data to another sequence so it's easier to handle? 08:16:13 (note: this is a school-project, but the task is not explicitly about optimization (nor is it about lisp)) 08:17:01 I guess versus disk IO, a little extra copying doesn't matter if it makes the code warmer and fuzzier 08:18:26 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.252] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:18:57 Or memmap the file and use an index to refer to the string... 08:19:20 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:19:44 the idea was, to create big-enough vectors with a fill-pointer in the reused objects, and write the contents of the split data-line in those vectors. Thus transparently removing the overhead of the GC 08:19:44 -!- ErikaHayley [n=ErikaHay@adsl-1-7-246.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:19:48 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 08:20:00 splittist: can you do that in a portable way? 08:20:16 of course, SBCL sabotaged its character support by wasting the high bit of its base-chars and making codes over 127 extended-chars, making it particularly painful to munge text robustly and space efficiently 08:20:32 hefner: no, it isn't really economically feasible =P 08:20:54 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.250.87] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:13 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-132.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:25 madnificent: not as far as I know 08:22:43 are there any books available on topics like this one? 08:24:39 *Krystof* bows, saboteur extraordinaire. 08:25:03 o7 08:25:12 I didn't understand the argument, probably because I don't know the details of the representation 08:25:15 Krystof: what have you done? 08:26:16 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:26:17 plage: if it was to me: tab separated values, newline-separated records. It's the AOL search query log 08:26:22 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:26:56 I thought text processing in general had given up on robustness and space efficiency in favour of comprehensiveness. 08:27:07 Now I'm just waiting for Jorj X. McKie^W^W^Whefner to come and give me alien hair 08:27:34 madnificent: No it was for hefner and Krystof. Sorry. 08:27:42 plage: np 08:28:31 splittist: again, what I'm doing is not economically feasible. I'm trying to learn about optimization a bit 08:28:41 (defining types could possible result in a speed-up too) 08:28:53 I can see that base-char = iso-8859-1 repertoire allows for a set of convenient puns. base-char = ascii allows a different set of convenient puns 08:29:15 sbcl actually supports both puns, though not at the same time; you can choose your build options 08:29:16 -!- Eko [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:31:01 it is true that we "waste" the high bit of base-chars; that allows fast utf-8 output of base-strings. 08:32:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has quit [] 08:33:02 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:33:22 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:23 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-249.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:36:05 oh, hefner wasn't even here to hear my brilliant retort 08:36:06 bah 08:36:37 likewise, you missed me whining about having to use (unsigned-byte 8) arrays 08:37:26 worst wireless ever. 08:37:51 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.90.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:37:57 funny how I always hear the comic store guy's voice whenever someone says "worst ever2 08:38:07 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:33 fast utf-8 output of base strings is something interesting I hadn't considered, although I don't expect anything associated with utf-8 to be truly fast. 08:39:00 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:39:38 I'm not saying I designed for that; it's more an unintended consequence 08:40:03 I also don't particularly care about fast utf-8 output, so I haven't even measured it to see if it's actually fast 08:40:37 Eko [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:05 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:41:51 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:43:40 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:45:56 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:48:45 Ah, high bit as in bit 7. Now I understand. 08:49:21 Intertricity [i=Raz@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:45 -!- Intertricity [i=Raz@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:54:42 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:55:21 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 08:57:31 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.87.189] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:57 Basic pathname question: how does one indicate a file in the home directory? 09:06:57 spiaggia: (merge-pathnames ... (user-homedir-pathname)) 09:08:03 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:08:05 Unless the lisp tries to be useful and supports ~ like allegro does. 09:08:09 See also tilde.lisp by Xach. 09:08:13 lichtblau: Thanks. I never looked into pathnames at all. 09:08:35 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:08:36 prxq [n=mommer@f051018218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:08:41 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:16 ejs1 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has joined #lisp 09:10:06 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:10:19 moin 09:11:36 lichtblau, is there a strong reason that :cxml :depends-on :cxml-test? the tests have some non-standard #/n in them, which fails to load... 09:15:46 kiuma [i=5d3efe6b@gateway/web/freenode/x-zfpeuzrtyvdmwwkx] has joined #lisp 09:15:54 I don't think there is a good reason for that, no. 09:16:08 hello lispers 09:16:21 The reader macro stuff, of course, should be solved using named-readtables, so it's a different question. 09:16:48 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:18:32 lichtblau, in that case in a free minute, please remove the dependency... it's a good idea anyway, because the tests are not needed for the users... 09:18:37 Eko_ [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:46 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@pool-71-126-42-170.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:20:43 lichtblau, and while we are at it, iirc split-qname and decode-qname choke when called on simple-base-string's (which might be intentional, though) 09:21:42 demmeln [n=Adium@94.216.64.40] has joined #lisp 09:22:26 -!- kiuma [i=5d3efe6b@gateway/web/freenode/x-zfpeuzrtyvdmwwkx] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 09:23:25 -!- Eko [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:12 Spaija [n=markko@64.103.36.133] has joined #lisp 09:26:43 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 09:27:26 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 09:27:55 ok. if I haven't done it before sbcl10, grab me there and keep me hostage until it's fixed. 09:30:54 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 09:31:14 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:31:36 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:33:05 Ogedei [n=user@e178219064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:58 pjb [n=t@79.149.144.1] has joined #lisp 09:36:37 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7574f9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:54 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:38:14 heh, ok :) 09:39:46 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:43:28 -!- teur1 [n=Golovnev@212.98.161.178] has left #lisp 09:49:57 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:50:50 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:27 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@80.14.131.214] has joined #lisp 09:58:17 Sarf Lunin Hostage Drama - Foreign Bank Theives [what else could 'steal bank' be about?] in Goldsmiths Shootout - 'They seemed such quiet boys' says neighbour 09:58:37 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:00:14 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:02:38 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:03:08 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-249.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit ["blub"] 10:04:36 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 10:04:40 -!- Eko_ [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:05:39 -!- Spaija [n=markko@64.103.36.133] has left #lisp 10:06:37 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:55 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:07:11 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 10:07:52 -!- Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:08:21 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:10:43 Eko_ [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:41 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:13:20 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@94.216.64.40] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:13:35 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-108-92.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:14:48 robyonrails [n=roby@82.59.213.50] has joined #lisp 10:15:01 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:15:09 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:15:46 leo2007 [n=leo@193.60.95.74] has joined #lisp 10:17:45 Hi, I'm talking with a friend about lisp who has been programming in C++ for 16 years. Now he asked me about an example how lisp treats code as data. Could anybody give me an example? 10:18:00 defmacro 10:19:49 Is the 'hooks' as in Emacs also an example in case? 10:20:08 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:20:23 That is more of a callback mechanism which is common in C++ 10:20:29 Not really. I suggest not to try to do language advocacy unless you know your stuff 10:20:59 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:21:06 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:21:42 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 10:21:55 -!- pragma_ is now known as umopepisdn` 10:22:44 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:25:00 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-80.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:25:33 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@80.14.131.214] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:28:32 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:30:52 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 10:30:55 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:20 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-8-239.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:45 just a general discussion between friends. No harm in doing so, I guess. 10:35:18 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:41:35 infidel2 [n=infidel2@pool-173-58-73-242.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:37 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:43:52 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:58 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-wbifbjbnrhitrurs] has joined #lisp 10:44:20 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78.72.33.106] has joined #lisp 10:44:33 Geralt [n=Geralt@91.50.239.90] has joined #lisp 10:45:21 leo2007: yes, harm, because people then get completely wrong ideas and spread them further 10:45:39 why do you think everyone still thinks Lisp is interpreted and slow? 10:51:08 But it is an interesting question. I imagine a good example of code-is-data for an experienced C++ programmer could well be different from a good example for a casual PHP programmer, for example. (And we could get into the whole C@W 'which C++ subset' question...) 10:52:03 "like templates, but over program code rather than types"? 10:52:19 *Jafet* blubs 10:52:41 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:54:05 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-gclkdsxqkzylemuy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:54:05 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 10:54:37 Can one define an around method for a slot-accessor? 10:55:30 and inside said method, does (slot-value self 'slotname) expand to the slot-accessor fn itself? 10:56:42 demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.175] has joined #lisp 10:57:15 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:59:58 nunb: yes, and no 11:02:26 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:02:42 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-111.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:03:16 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:03:16 nunb: amongst other ways to test re: your first question would be to define a class with an accessor, and inspect the accessor. If it says something like METHOD-COMBINATION: STANDARD-METHOD-COMBINATION then around methods should work. 11:04:40 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:06:05 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:06:16 mathrick: ok. I will stick with defmacro 11:11:04 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@82.59.213.50] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 11:12:49 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-178-135-94.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:08 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-224.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:27 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:20:49 mathrick: As someone who is beginning with common lisp, I think the problem with lisp is that there are so many unusual concepts one must overcome before one can use lisp more or less freely; while in a language like python, you can almost pick up the language by following a book and start being productive. Unfortunately that kind of instant gratification is key to many people in using a language. 11:24:30 ymacs. spooky. 11:26:06 A bit of ymacs, a bit of jsmacs (elisp interpreter) and we might get Xof on ChromeOS yet... 11:26:33 I'm sorry, Google owns all my children already 11:26:46 no, wait, Canonical does 11:26:52 in any case, they're all spoken for 11:27:04 heh 11:28:09 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 11:29:42 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:30:37 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-178-135-94.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:17 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@193.60.95.74] has left #lisp 11:34:42 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:40 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 11:40:55 -!- redblue [i=star@207.253.108.37] has quit [Success] 11:43:40 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-186-44.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 11:45:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:47:35 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:14 brita_ [n=stitch@193.136.166.125] has joined #lisp 11:54:10 hey, are there trees already implemented in lisp? 11:54:34 minion: trees? 11:54:34 trees: TREES is a Library which provides binary trees of several flavors, all exposed through a uniform CLOS interface. http://www.cliki.net/trees 11:54:51 non binary trees? 11:56:00 you could browse http://www.cl-user.net/asp/AxDP/sdataQI5x9qrVWRb1DQjr-br2CqZk8yBX8yBX8oQ5/sdataQu3F$sSHnB== 11:58:18 -!- myrkraverk`` [n=johann@85-220-127-231.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:34 well, i guess i'll implement my own, thnks 11:59:59 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:02:20 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:06 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:03:23 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:03:35 HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 12:05:32 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:05:53 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:06:00 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 12:06:25 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:15 satiricon [n=david@190.173.167.228] has joined #lisp 12:10:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mixoasuiwrncxfxj] has left #lisp 12:10:38 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-133-122.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:11 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:13:41 cvandusen [n=irchon@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:57 snearch [n=olaf@e179133069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:57 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-10-107.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:12 -!- cvandusen [n=irchon@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:55 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:40 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.22.70] has joined #lisp 12:23:25 arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.94.98] has joined #lisp 12:23:35 morning 12:25:22 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:28:40 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.197.18] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 brita_: I'd expect them to be in a lib called (iirc something like) common containers 12:29:59 check on cliki 12:30:23 Guthur [n=Michael@81.131.243.232] has joined #lisp 12:34:27 danlei [n=user@vpn038.uni-trier.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:35 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:42:04 -!- arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.94.98] has quit [] 12:43:28 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:05 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.34.92] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:23 dysinger [n=dysinger@75.85.132.170] has joined #lisp 12:47:49 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.175] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:50:44 zarkone [n=zarkone@95.190.159.146] has joined #lisp 12:51:14 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 12:52:23 hi all! i'm newbye in lisp and have an question.. 12:53:55 i have to write function that do smth like that: 12:53:55 (a b) (d e f) => ((a d) (a e) (a f) (b d) (b e) (b f)) 12:54:14 and i must use loop cycle to do that 12:54:21 cross product 12:54:30 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has joined #lisp 12:54:53 i write this 12:54:53 http://pastebin.ca/1688047 12:55:01 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:57 but when i use "collect" i get: 12:55:57 (((A D) (A E) (A F)) ((B D) (B E) (B F))) 12:56:19 zarkone, Why do you intend your code like that? 12:56:31 zarkone, Is the code in your lecture also indented like that? 12:56:46 zarkone, so join those lists together 12:57:22 Jafet: but what i have to use against "collect" to join them? 12:57:54 i'm trying to append it to some variable but i've got nothing =( 12:58:56 trittweiler: in what lecture? im sorry for my english.. 12:58:59 So... append those lists together. 13:01:10 i thought it must work, but not 13:01:10 http://pastebin.ca/1688052 13:01:10 i don't know how to append it together 13:01:28 it's becouse r is not visible in loop? 13:02:18 Why are you using loop, anyway? I'd use map 13:03:00 Jafet: it's for my lessons. I have to write it in two variants: 13:03:00 1) using recursion 13:03:00 2) using loop 13:03:10 so first have been done 13:03:35 I think your instructor missed 3) correctly and easily using standard libraries 13:03:45 Oh well. 13:03:59 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-255-193.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:01 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 13:04:56 Hint: a loop expression has a value. 13:05:16 Jafet: to say truth, all the students write it in dialect muLisp. But it is different to cLisp and i don't want to learn different dialect 13:05:33 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:06:59 Jafet: you mean loop returns smth? I know, i assign it to variable a in my example 13:07:35 but it true that other variables are not visible in loop? 13:07:41 *is it true 13:08:15 LiamH [n=nobody@72.75.73.155] has joined #lisp 13:08:33 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14560.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:17 Jabberwock [n=jens@84.46.57.25] has joined #lisp 13:09:31 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179133069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:09:32 zarkone, say CL or Lisp when you mean Common Lisp. clisp is a Common Lisp compiler. 13:09:54 tic: ok, i will 13:10:30 so i meant Common Lisp 13:10:34 (just to make things easier for everyone) 13:11:47 zarkone: you can construct a list via pushing on to a list and then 'nreverse'ing it 13:12:41 ziga``: thnx, i'll try it 13:12:42 or do you already have a solution 13:14:50 (defun f (l1 l2) (let (a) (loop for i in l1 do (loop for j in l2 do (push (list i j) a))) (nreverse a))) 13:14:53 this works 13:15:38 you can also do without 'nreverse' if you append at the end of the list (but it's less efficient than pushing at front) 13:16:08 -!- danlei [n=user@vpn038.uni-trier.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:16:15 'nreverse' reverses the elements of the list and returns it 13:16:29 sorry all, i'm just stupid newbye. I could use just "append" against "collect" 13:16:29 but i thought that i can't use it in that situation 13:17:04 fusss [n=fusss@60.241.1.206] has joined #lisp 13:17:41 yes you could append instead of collect.. but append will require (list (list i j)) if I'm not mistaken 13:18:40 ziga``: http://pastebin.ca/1688069 13:18:43 this works properly 13:18:50 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:50 zarkone: mulisp? On a DOS box? 13:18:50 so thnx all! 13:19:22 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:19:24 zarkone: you should use (let (r) ...code...) instead setq 13:19:35 -!- dto [n=dto@96.252.62.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:38 or rather, what kind of hardware are you running the lisp on? 13:19:41 otherwise OK 13:19:52 dto [n=dto@96.252.62.25] has joined #lisp 13:19:55 ziga``: setq isn't need already 13:20:07 i forget to erase it 13:20:19 zarkone: true.. the loop already returns the whole thing 13:21:06 prxq: i'm on linux and haven't dosbox this one of the reasons i don't want use muLisp 13:21:25 Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.211.124] has joined #lisp 13:21:54 zarkone: so the instructor asks you to program in the old DOS mulisp? 13:22:29 wow 13:22:43 prxq: he gave us MULISP.COM file - there is no need in dosbox to run it. But i also haven't wine, so.. 13:23:05 and also he gave COMTOEXE.EXE =) 13:23:22 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14560.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 13:23:31 wow wow wow 13:23:38 prxq: ? =) 13:24:41 i live in Siberia, we have very old things in university 13:25:11 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:25:17 and get new soft only from Microsoft for free 13:25:46 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Success] 13:27:19 zarkone: are there any bigger cities in Siberia? 13:27:31 or is it more or less empty? 13:28:12 I see.. novosibirsk 13:28:28 i live in Barnaul, ~700 000. There are few rather bigger cities. but North is mostly empty 13:28:50 You can look at map and you'll see if you're interesting 13:29:36 ajazz [n=ajazz@91.144.178.36] has joined #lisp 13:29:46 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:29:47 zarkone: that's really ancient stuff :-) 13:29:56 mulisp, I mean. 13:30:11 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-wbifbjbnrhitrurs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:11 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 13:30:26 -!- ajazz [n=ajazz@91.144.178.36] has left #lisp 13:30:30 I've always had this romantic image of going across russia via trans-siberia railway, traveling for days in uninhabited landscape 13:30:36 prxq: yes i know =) seems it's only for learning and nobody using it? 13:30:44 Yes. 13:31:44 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:00 ziga``: you have to know where to find interesting nature otherwise this travel could be very boring 13:33:15 whoppix [n=whoppix@85.165.69.172] has joined #lisp 13:33:15 ziga``: in some regions there is only steppe around 13:35:36 and i can't say that it is safe espesially if you couldn't speak and understand Russian =) 13:35:40 -!- drwho [n=d@98.225.208.183] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:35:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:36:09 drwho [n=drwho@98.225.208.183] has joined #lisp 13:38:51 -!- Jabberwock is now known as Jabberwockey 13:38:51 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:45:27 ziga``: that sounds remarkably boring :) 13:45:42 zarkone: having old computers and little money is no reason to use old software. 13:46:00 zarkone: linux and most linux programs work very well with little resources, on old computers. 13:46:34 zarkone: as soon as you have an internet connection for a flat price, you can download it along with all the good modern software you want. 13:47:00 zarkone: so you could easily get clisp or sbcl and work with a modern lisp implementation, and lear modern programming techniques. 13:47:19 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:47:32 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:48:19 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-29-110.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:51:19 is there a way to create a cl-glfw window in one thread and do the update loop in another 13:52:19 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [] 13:52:21 Ogedei` [n=user@e178229188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:34 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:46 pjb: i couldn't say that university has very old computers.. But new soft only from microsoft. I'm using linux and home.Internet in Barnaul(the town where i live) is the worst in Siberia, lately appeared tarif with 1024 kb/sec for 50$/month. But i think that's enogh to get modern soft. Seems like nobody cares about functional and logic programming there. We learn a lot of theory, but write on usuall languagies like c++ c# 13:53:15 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:53:54 we don't learn functional programming as deep as data structures for example 13:54:27 pjb: > so you could easily get clisp 13:54:27 that's what i've done =) 13:54:50 i didn't say that i'm using muLisp 13:56:29 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:31 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 13:57:09 i just said that teacher gave us it, but i don't want to learn so different from Common Lisp dialect 13:57:41 there is no use from it, i think, just wasting time. 14:06:32 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 14:07:25 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:08:21 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178219064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:23 syamajala [n=syamajal@98.217.241.153] has joined #lisp 14:10:00 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:10:00 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:14 varjag [n=eugene@62.97.226.122] has joined #lisp 14:17:10 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:17:49 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:20:39 Jafet [n=Jafet@115.134.60.102] has joined #lisp 14:22:45 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:45 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:22:58 billitch [n=billitch@82.67.155.88] has joined #lisp 14:27:37 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:08 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:54 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@98.217.241.153] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:24 syamajala [n=syamajal@98.217.241.153] has joined #lisp 14:34:26 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:36:07 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@98.210.192.23] has quit [] 14:37:37 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.67.155.88] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:50 billitch [n=billitch@82.67.155.88] has joined #lisp 14:38:18 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:40:21 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46:46 zarkone: I'd guess it's not a private university you're at? Then why should they use only Microsoft product? They could easily go the free software route... Or perhaps Bill Gates bribed the heads of universities last time he visited Russia? ;-) 14:47:01 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.67.155.88] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:13 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:26 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:17 perhaps? 14:50:14 pjb: you know, i think that most people in university have not good opinion about linux, secondly microsoft often take stutedns on work in their corporation 14:51:27 1) it's a huge business for someone; 2) gov's spend someone else's money; 3) probability of getting to jail for it approaches zero... => it happens 14:51:54 our faculty and microsoft have very good relations i think 14:51:54 so we have a lot microsoft products and it's good to both sides. 14:51:54 We almost never learned linux =( 14:52:30 zarkone, you're learning the past... the takeover of opensource is just a question of time... 14:52:46 attila_lendvai: i quite agree 14:52:57 i like open source 14:53:07 this is why i'm using linux 14:53:16 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:54:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:54:40 proprietary soft is like closed science, i think. There is almost no progress and it's restrcted to use and improve 14:54:52 actually, learning CS at universities is also of questionable use... your brain just gets infected by the wrong ideas (except a few universities, but that's < 1%) 14:54:58 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 14:56:18 when u say "your brain" you mean in general?(i speak english no good, sorry) 14:56:45 *attila_lendvai* recalls the first time he met lisp at university and sighs... 14:58:32 zarkone, if you hear ideas, thoughts regarding something... then it limits your view on that something thing and makes it harder to come up with other thoughts. just think of single dispatch, and how silly it is to treat one arg so very much different then the others... and how natural it is for most programmers with a degree 14:58:50 and actually, how hard it is to point it out for them that single dispatch is just a big anomaly... 14:59:18 s/then/than/ 14:59:19 single-dispatch is like real numbers? 14:59:33 heh 14:59:48 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@81.131.243.232] has quit ["Computer says no"] 15:00:26 What's your typical exemplary use case for multiple-dispatch (mixin-style programming doesn't count.) 15:00:37 visitor pattern! 15:00:45 attila_lendvai: i don't know why we don't learn lisp and linux properly.It's very good for learning programmists i thing. it tought how to think different 15:00:57 nyef, visitor pattern is map? 15:01:17 i would say that we don't learn at almost at all 15:01:18 Visitor pattern is double-dispatch. 15:01:30 I slept through my pattern classes :-) 15:02:13 I think Norvig's design patterns presentation gives some info. 15:02:31 http://norvig.com/design-patterns/ 15:03:16 redline6561 [n=redline@74.232.249.27] has joined #lisp 15:04:04 attila_lendvai: we have only 3 small works on muLisp, 2 on Autocad and 3 on prolog in this subject 15:04:56 nad i don't know what for - i think we will know nothing about it after this course 15:05:02 s/nad/and 15:05:13 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-163-118.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:34 but i want to learn it myself, i think Common lisp is interesting 15:06:30 zarkone, i suggest to focus on your own education and spend only as much energy on the university as you need to pass the exams. if you are courageous and motivated enough, then you could just quit university and spend the time working/learning on your own, but i don't advise that just now... a degree can still be useful, although i'm 32 and i've never used mine (i'm an electrical engineer anyway) 15:07:45 and you would miss a few nice people that you will get to know at university, too 15:08:23 ejs [n=eugen@91.90.15.36] has joined #lisp 15:10:15 timor [n=martin@141.76.186.196] has joined #lisp 15:11:40 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:12:04 hmm... (function foo) => # how to generate foo dynamically and pass it to function? 15:12:27 clhs fdefinition 15:12:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm 15:12:50 i have a timer running, via #'run-with-timer, which calls a function, which in turn outputs something via 'message. Seems to work as expected, but i think there are differences in how long the message window stays open, sometimes i have to closeit wtih C-t g. Is there any way to control how long the message window stays up? 15:12:52 really? i've been messing with that 15:12:58 whhhhhhhhhhhhe wrong channel 15:13:08 The best things I learnt at university were when I wasn't in lectures but browsing the library looking for the books no-one had taken out for ages. I guess that's a bit like learning lisp... 15:13:26 attila_lendvai: ofcourse degree is useful especialy demanded degree like mine now. Even if i wouldn't have need in some knowleges which i'd got in university i'd have what to write in resume first time 15:13:37 -!- hjpark [n=user@119.207.211.20] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:17 attila_lendvai: firts time when i'd have no portfolio 15:14:21 zarkone, when applying programming job? 15:14:42 attila_lendvai, There's not question that if you spent the time you go to university yourself, you'd probably end up with much more specialized knowledge. However, a degree hopefully introduced you to broad spectrum of subjects. 15:14:52 It's not hard to make your own portfolio 15:15:12 dlowe [n=dlowe@24.91.154.83] has joined #lisp 15:15:20 zarkone, i was contacted by google's HR guys, most probably because of my opensource stuff available online. they never heard about my degree... 15:15:48 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:55 trittweiler, well, as i applied to EE at the end, it's true. if i had applied to CS, i may have quit before the end... 15:16:41 ruepel0r [n=rue@p4FCE20DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:17:47 but on my uni, EE and CS was almost the same, maybe the last 2-3 years were a bit different... and looking back, what i would miss is math/physics/etc, not the EE stuff, and especially not the CS stuff 15:20:36 trittweiler: got it now. ta 15:20:40 attila_lendvai: true but degree is also not bad, i think. I spend time for my lessons only how much it required and not more. Other time i learn that useful for job that im interested 15:20:42 and while we are at it, http://tunes.org was a rich source of mind opening thoughts when i was at the uni. much richer than classes... 15:23:12 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:31 im 19 and after year i'll finish university and i don't want to be without job 15:24:11 this is why i learn another things, not only from uni subjects 15:25:25 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has joined #lisp 15:28:02 zarkone: you won't believe this (and why should you?), but your time at university will be the last time you have (the opportunity to have) enough carefree sleep in your life. Enjoy it! 15:28:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@91.90.15.36] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:28:25 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@24.91.154.83] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:33 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:47 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has joined #lisp 15:31:29 vng [n=user@123.20.95.16] has joined #lisp 15:33:32 splittist: i know that, but now i sleep 4-5/day and hope that i will not sleep less.. But it is only hope =) 15:34:43 Fare [n=Fare@cpe-74-76-189-128.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:13 milanj [n=milan@212.200.217.7] has joined #lisp 15:35:33 Bloody slime manual. 15:36:17 -!- pjb [n=t@79.149.144.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:27 First, it says that (load "swank-loader") is sufficient preliminary to (swank:create-server), which is wrong. 15:36:48 Then it doesn't contain any instructions on how to compile the contrib lisp files. 15:36:50 a bit OT, but does anyone knows who sells nice logo turtle these days 15:37:29 varjag: Just repurpose a lego mindstorms kit or something. 15:37:35 legumbre_ [n=leo@190.135.79.79] has joined #lisp 15:38:08 preferably with keypad input and some display 15:38:11 mm lego 15:40:36 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:41:30 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:54 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-111.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:43:35 nyef, contribs are effectively deleted from... heller just doesn't want to face the response of actually deleting them from the repo... :) 15:43:56 Wait, what? 15:44:10 ejs [n=eugen@91.90.15.36] has joined #lisp 15:44:12 and yes, detailed docs go out of sync, that's why they are pretty useless when compared to test suites 15:44:38 nyef, just pointing out that heller put everything in contribs that he doesn't use 15:44:44 including the repl 15:44:50 I'm a -user-. I should have to read test suites or source code to figure out how to make things work. 15:45:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@91.90.15.36] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:16 nyef: are you reading the online manual or the copy that comes with your source code? 15:45:20 nyef, wrong! you are a programmer... ;) 15:45:35 Xof: The copy in the source code. 15:45:48 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:06 attila_lendvai: But not a SLIME programmer. 15:46:39 nyef, look into swank-loader.lisp; you have call swank-loader:setup :contribs t or something like that 15:46:51 alternatively use swank.asd 15:46:54 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-133-122.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:58 -!- mtd_ [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit ["leaving"] 15:47:15 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229114212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:31 trittweiler: Thanks. Missed that when I found swank-loader:init. 15:47:56 perhaps it's also swank-loader:init 15:47:56 one calls the other 15:48:33 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 15:50:05 Joy. (swank-loader::compile-contribs). 15:50:22 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:52:22 At least that's one thing fixed, though. Thanks again. 15:53:35 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:55:41 I don't think you're supposed to call that directly :-) 15:55:45 -!- zarkone [n=zarkone@95.190.159.146] has quit ["zzz"] 15:56:35 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-21-130.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:48 rares1 [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:02 -!- rares1 [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 15:58:49 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:01 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:36 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03:41 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-224-205.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:11 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-sslsucjhcufbnemk] has joined #lisp 16:05:45 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:45 Geralt [n=Geralt@vpn-cl-165-40.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 16:05:53 -!- brita_ [n=stitch@193.136.166.125] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:06:46 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 16:06:58 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 16:09:26 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:09:44 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:12:10 danlei [n=user@82.113.106.159] has joined #lisp 16:13:12 rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:13:39 rbanffy [i=c8e27bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-dqsqxgcxigitdklo] has joined #lisp 16:14:13 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:09 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:15:10 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@vpn-cl-165-123.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:24 -!- Geralt1 is now known as Geralt 16:15:41 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:06 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:07 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:01 sacker [n=sacker@c-69-180-204-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:57 rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:06 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:44 rares [n=rares@174.22.225.229] has joined #lisp 16:18:51 hello. i thought i read sth about openCL (not only gl) bindings for sbcl. but i do not find it via google. does anyone have an idea where to look (what keywords to search for?)? 16:19:00 -!- rares [n=rares@174.22.225.229] has left #lisp 16:20:54 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@98.217.241.153] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:46 -!- Fufie [n=poff@80.203.160.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:00 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:24:16 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@p4FCE20DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:25:00 Good evening! 16:25:20 [At least it *feels* like evening] 16:25:20 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:25:24 -!- eno__ [n=eno@70.137.166.236] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:57 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-sslsucjhcufbnemk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:26:15 -!- Fare [n=Fare@cpe-74-76-189-128.nycap.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 16:27:23 Hello beach. 16:27:26 and it looks like night ;) 16:27:36 My clock says it's not even noon yet. 16:28:26 trebor_dki: Right, it's dusk here, but we are 1h west of the middle of our time zone. You are somewhat east of it, I suppose? 16:28:45 nyef: What are you working on these days? 16:29:12 I've been looking at natural language processing, starting with speech recognition. 16:29:12 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:36 beach: you are right, its just dark outside. 16:30:06 (Hence all of my recent questions about FFTs.) 16:30:48 nyef: Ah, that explains it. 16:30:49 arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.98.112] has joined #lisp 16:30:58 ejs [n=eugen@91.90.15.36] has joined #lisp 16:31:02 that sounds like hard stuff though. 16:31:30 evening 16:31:38 hello arabesca 16:31:48 Yeah, I've been figuring this as a long-term project. 16:32:10 hi beach 16:32:27 arabesca: You are pretty new here aren't you? 16:33:00 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:33:06 not really 16:33:16 new nick then? 16:33:18 but i usually connect as 'beauty' 16:33:28 ah, OK. 16:33:34 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:17 someone stole it so i used this 16:35:03 ... "stole" it? That's a neat trick given nick registration. 16:35:58 beach: At the same time, I've got enough figured out now that I can hope to build a simple speech recognizer by the new year. 16:36:13 well, for some definitions of "stole" 16:36:14 anyway registering a nick doesn't seem to prevent someone using it 16:36:14 nyef: Nice! 16:36:47 arabesca: No, but then you can kick them. 16:37:19 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:37:40 The critical bit that I'm still at a substantial loss on is the phoneme recognizer, but I'm starting to get an idea of how that should work. 16:38:16 beach i'm not (yet) that violent 16:39:15 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:40:47 arabesca: It's just a violent name for something like forcing someone to use a different nick if he/she wants to stay connected. 16:40:58 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60.241.1.206] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:41:08 (The classical architecture seems to be to to turn the audio signal into a set of 13-dimensional frames over time, then classify each frame to obtain phonemes. Or classify to obtain some other feature set and then use an HMM to match to phonemes.) 16:41:47 nyef: What are some of the 13 dimensions? 16:41:51 mfccs 16:41:55 Typically MFCCs. 16:42:02 Yeah, Xof would know this. 16:42:31 (approximately: the dct of a nonlinearly-banded spectrogram) 16:42:36 oh, right cepstrums 16:42:39 Seems like every paper I come across reduces to 13 MFCCs using DSP techniques and then classifies from there. 16:44:15 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:30 nyef: oh, NLP is a fun thing to work on, but of all the things in it, speech recognition happens to be the part I have almost absolutely no interest in :) 16:47:28 rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:31 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d2de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:47:39 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d2de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:46 jewel [n=jewel@41.29.217.1] has joined #lisp 16:47:48 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.231.88] has quit ["bye"] 16:47:49 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 16:47:50 mathrick: What parts of NLP are you interested in? 16:48:44 semantic analysis and machine understanding. The parts that deal with the language as an abstract encoding, not vibrations in the air 16:49:09 how about grammar checking? 16:49:13 not that I have any real knowledge of it, but I'm slowly (to slowly) working my way up to actually getting hooked in an NLP lab 16:49:17 beach: yeah, that too 16:49:28 I'd classify that as a subset of machine understanding 16:49:37 mathrick: I think that's an error. 16:49:43 s/(to/(too/ 16:49:46 beach: where? 16:49:50 or rather "mistake". 16:49:57 Tordek [n=tordek@host137.190-231-49.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:49:59 to classify it as such? 16:50:27 mathrick: I think grammar checking is much simpler than understanding, but people tend to consider it as a side-effect of understanding, thus making it much harder. 16:50:32 mathrick: yeah. 16:51:07 that depends on how you understand "machine understanding", and how you see grammar checking fitting in the big picture 16:51:16 it's sort of like syntax highlighting with regexes 16:51:37 you can do it, and it'll mostly work. But there's an absolute limit of where you can get with it 16:51:43 only in written text, if you consider spoken language, it won't be that easy anymore 16:51:43 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-178-135-94.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:52 mathrick: Certainly, if you have understanding, you can probably do grammar checking pretty easily. 16:51:53 cmm [n=cmm@79.178.135.94] has joined #lisp 16:51:56 danlei: and that too 16:51:59 you'll have to consider heuristics of some sort 16:52:00 I'd think that a basic grammar-checking system would operate on a statistical model of language, such as n-grams, but also allow for feedback from a higher-level semantic analysis phase. 16:52:37 mathrick: But I consider it overkill, so people consider grammar checking to be difficult because understanding is difficult. 16:52:54 I've always seen statistical models as a cheap cop-out, never mind their vast practical superiority :) 16:52:59 I'll have a quantitative linguistics course next year ... 16:53:10 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-238-94.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:13 danlei: nice, what are you studying? 16:53:34 mathrick: "sprach- & texttechnologie", it's mostly computational linguistics 16:53:42 beach: but on many levels grammar is impossible to get right without actual comprehension 16:53:42 with prof. dr. köhler 16:54:04 statistical models as cop-out? Huh? That is sufficiently weird that it distracts me from what I should be doing (which is writing an exam paper) 16:54:27 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit ["leaving"] 16:54:51 maybe you mean something different from what I understand by "statistical model" 16:54:56 danlei: nifty, would you happen to have any good low-level and introductory texts to recommend (in English if possible, my German is still non-existent)? My purely-CS background leaves me feeling hopelessly incompetent 16:55:41 mathrick: not at the moment, I'm just starting, too. (I use "linguistik in kürze" for the basics ... a little german textbook) 16:56:08 mathrick: There is no point in checking for errors that the user never makes. 16:56:48 mathrick: Plus, there can be multiple interpretations of a phrase, but both could be correct according to the grammer, so why bother to understand it then? 16:56:51 mathrick: If you want to build general linguistic understanding, you should probably start with de Saussure 16:56:52 At the same time, one can assume that the set of errors that the user makes might vary. 16:57:06 beach: that's exactly the point, if you don't get it, you can't judge it 16:57:19 danlei: tell me more? 16:57:20 dnolen [n=dnolen@70.249.156.223] has joined #lisp 16:57:28 nyef: I am perfectly willing to write grammar productions for the errors I most frequently make. 16:57:43 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:30 -!- Borbus_ is now known as Borbus 16:58:33 Fair enough. 16:58:36 mathrick: well, check out structuralism, learn the basics (like: words are NOT the basic units of speech, learn, what a "phonem", "lexem" etc is ... build an understanding of linguistics in general, before you start doing anythin with your computer :) 16:58:52 Xof: that might be, but I meant models which obtain their knowledge from just running over a corpus of text without actually looking much into the underlying meaning. Which is hopelessly layman a description, I'm aware of that 16:59:05 And there's a certain sense of "annoyance threshhold" wherein after the system misses a given error often enough you'll write a production for it. 16:59:17 mathrick: That's not true for French, at least. Take "école de conduite Girondine", where Girondine can be an adjective related either to école or conduite. But to understand the phrase, you would need to know whether the text has to do with driving lessons, or table manners. 16:59:21 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:59:37 beach: Ahh, discourse models already? 16:59:37 danlei: yes, that's what I meant, I read a lot of wikipedia on linguistics, but that leaves me convinced I lack the fundamentals to grasp it properly 17:00:23 beach: yes, and? How is that an example arguing *against* understanding for proper grammar checking? 17:00:51 mathrick: so I'm not about to have this discussion now, but: isn't what you describe really quite close to human acquisition of knowledge (for example language acquisition, but also e.g. learning about music) 17:00:51 you don't have to look at French, English is much better, with its "everything is an adjective. Oh, and also a noun and a verb" 17:01:06 mathrick: Oh, I am just arguing that understanding might be overkill, because both interpretations give the same result: "correct". 17:01:16 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 17:01:27 mathrick: Because "Girondine" is an adjective either way? 17:01:28 Happy Thanksgiving lispers. 17:01:33 tmh: Happy Thanksgiving. 17:01:41 Xof: perhaps, but I'm not convinced, or at least don't feel it's necessarily the right way to build our machines 17:01:49 nyef: and both école and conduite are feminine nouns. 17:01:54 mathrick: I just wrote a homework about signs (signifiant, signifiee), how to recognize them, etc. but it's all in german 17:02:00 tmh: Thanks! 17:02:16 mathrick: (and just my feeble beginning of working on the topic) 17:02:23 beach: Ah, right. I had somehow forgotten that french uses gendered nouns. 17:02:29 it's the same way I feel about neural networks. I like how someone I forgot put it once, it's like trying to build the next CPU by reverse-engineering a physical copy of Pentium 4 17:02:31 -e 17:02:59 mathrick: The situation reminds me of medical practice in France. They no longer care to figure out what you are suffering from, as long as they have a plausible set of drugs that cover the vast majority of the problems your symptoms suggest. 17:03:16 mathrick: This is scientifically unappealing, but much more economical. 17:03:24 exactly! 17:03:48 I don't care if the effective solutions are effective if they're not appealing. I might use them, but you can't make me like them 17:03:50 More economical, but likely drives the concerned patient to attempting to do their own diagnosis... 17:04:43 beach: but anyway, that example works because both happen to be feminine. And what if they didn't? 17:04:46 nyef: Let's not go too far that direction. I was just making an analogy. 17:04:51 mathrick: I don't know, I think that the basic idea of an artificial neural network is interesting for certain applications; however, one should not focus on how it works in a brain but on how it should work for the task at hand. 17:04:57 Fair enough. 17:04:57 you have a 0.001% change, yet your entire solution falls apart 17:05:17 mathrick: Then you accept both anyway because it might not be an error. 17:05:27 I would tend to argue that the best solutions for modelling are simultaneously scientifically unappealing and economical, and are likely to be statistical in nature 17:05:43 (I would also agree that a neural-network is not that solution) 17:06:05 neural networks worry me. 17:06:11 at least not the single-layer perceptron type of thing 17:06:25 dynamic bayesian networks, markov random fields, that kind of things: statistical and plausible 17:06:28 They seem too low-level for some reason. 17:06:44 serichsen: neural networks might be interesting as solutions to problems right now, but are not interesting as models of understanding, so long as their understanding derives from a large set of trial-and-error runs 17:07:07 ah, that's a fundamental point of disagreement, then 17:07:31 the reason I think trained neural networks are uninteresting is not because they have learnt from data, but because we can't interpret what they have learnt from data 17:07:44 demmeln1 [n=Adium@138.246.18.124] has joined #lisp 17:07:55 yeah, I'm not claiming mine is the best point of view. I just have that elegance capacitor built in somewhere deeply in my wiring and I can't get rid of it 17:08:08 if there were a similar kind of thing as a NN, but where you could point at a bit of the network and say "that thing there, that represents high-level thing ", would you be happier? 17:08:10 Xof: that's another way of saying it 17:08:15 yes 17:08:16 I refuse to use spam filters based on statistics, because I am sure they would just learn the difference between French and English (nearly all spams I get are in English, and nearly all non-spams are in French). 17:08:35 Wait, isn't that a matter of running a classifier of some sort over the NN outputs? 17:08:38 if someone uses opencl/cuda (maybe via swig) please drop me a note (need it for speeding up some parts in 3d-image-analysis app). thanks. 17:08:46 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:10 beach: Run it behind a language-disambiguator, so it only gets the english mails? 17:09:39 nyef: That might work. 17:10:13 Now you just need a statistical classifier for picking the language that email is written in... 17:10:43 That sounds relatively easy. 17:10:48 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:10:55 I don't see why you even need that; the relevant distinction is not english spam vs french; it's spam vocabulary vs non-spam vocabulary. As long as there is a distinctive vocabulary in spam, you win 17:11:12 Xof: if you could build a NN that somehow reliably transformed input data into concepts you could then transpose, and did it in a well-understood way, then it'd be perfectly fine and an excellent tool. But I refuse to acknowledge black boxes with large amounts of garbage thrown at them as the correct model just because they happen to work 17:11:29 s/transpose/extract/ or something 17:11:31 mathrick: sure, but "statistical models" is a wildly huger superclass of NN 17:11:31 Xof: Provided the filter picks that up rather the difference in vocabulary between languages. 17:11:34 -!- timor [n=martin@141.76.186.196] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:12:04 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-15-50.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:12:06 beach: if you get no English ham, then it won't, but on the other hand if you get no English ham then whatever it does will be right 17:13:09 Xof: That's the problem. Few, but precious emails are in English (the spam language), and few (but some) spam emails are in French. 17:13:24 mathrick: I found something, which might be interesting: http://www.archive.org/stream/courseingenerall00saus#page/228/mode/2up but I just skimmed it. In general, I think one should learn this stuff. As my prof puts it: We could be further advanced in this stuff, if more linguists worked ad it, not cs people. 17:13:39 *at 17:13:49 (or: not mere cs people) 17:13:49 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:14:02 Xof: no doubt, but NN here might be taken as a shorthand for "statistical model that doesn't advance the understanding from first principles" without the loss of generality 17:14:13 -!- danlei [n=user@82.113.106.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:14 s/the loss/loss/ 17:15:14 daniel: I'm writing my thesis right now, and have been going through a bit of an identity crisis recently, namely if I shouldn't have studied linguistics as my major instead 17:15:38 mathrick: what *is* your major? 17:15:43 CS 17:15:48 mathrick: Then that's the right choice. 17:16:03 I had way better understanding of CS before I started, so I could've replaced that more readily 17:16:10 danlei [n=user@82.113.106.159] has joined #lisp 17:16:17 whereas I'm not in a position to self-study linguistics to become competent 17:16:26 not yet anyway 17:16:33 mathrick: I see CS colleagues pick up other disciplines very easily. I have no explanation why, but it seems much harder for people from other disciplines to pick up CS. 17:16:47 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:50 well, we work closely with the cs department 17:16:51 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.134.79] has joined #lisp 17:17:03 beach: but that wouldn't have changed if I had gone to linguistics. I was CS people before I went to the Uni :) 17:17:03 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:17:20 mathrick: Sure, yes. 17:17:48 danlei: lemme take a look 17:17:58 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:18:03 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:18:04 and you're right, the're good ad getting things, complex systems. still, you can't compare that to one who was properly educated in linguistics, and especially focused in practical aplication of linguistics. 17:18:21 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:45 in general, the're more focused on technical suff, whereas inour department, the students are more ... hm ... of broader education 17:20:42 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-238-94.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:44 Xof: oh, and btw, re: music knowledge, I can't comment on that one since music remains a complete mystery to me. And I mean complete. It's one of those very few things I absolutely fail to get and don't have even a faint idea where to start 17:20:56 danlei` [n=user@82.113.106.154] has joined #lisp 17:20:56 -!- danlei [n=user@82.113.106.159] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:21:00 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 17:21:12 *danlei* has a lousy connection atm 17:21:19 danlei: your connection seems to be opposed to technical discussion :) 17:21:26 yes, seems so :) 17:21:44 mathrick: so you don't like neural networks because you don't understand them ? ;p 17:21:54 I'm sitting in a train right now, in about 5 minutes, there'll be no more connection at all :) 17:22:11 *beach* would like to see synthesized singin. It wouldn't replace stars like Xof, but could do a good job with mediocre rock singers. 17:22:27 that basically already happens, with autotuners 17:22:36 beach: like Vocaloid? 17:22:46 or do you mean different kind of synthesised? 17:22:53 Hmm, I haven't heard anything remotely credible yet. 17:23:01 danlei: oh, that was a good time to catch you then :) 17:23:04 mathrick: don't know that technology. 17:23:25 -!- ejs [n=eugen@91.90.15.36] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:23:31 basically a speech synthesiser created for singing 17:23:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocaloid 17:23:39 mathrick: did you take a look at the link i posted? 17:24:02 danlei: yes, I'll have the time to digest it properly later though 17:24:05 but thanks 17:24:09 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:17 mathrick: Looks like what I want, but I have never heard it in action. 17:24:24 *mathrick* needs to show some results at the next meeting with the supervisor first 17:24:27 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:31 beach: oh, there's tonnes of it 17:24:41 mathrick: welcome 17:24:45 trebor_dki [n=user@130.83.156.186] has joined #lisp 17:25:02 *beach* listens to the examples. 17:25:41 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.29.217.1] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:26:48 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-083-015.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:26:52 mathrick: It's not too bad actually. 17:26:53 Wasn't there a singing-voice synthesizer based on Festival? 17:27:07 http://cslu.cse.ogi.edu/tts/flinger/ 17:27:10 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:19 ignas [n=ignas@193.219.43.4] has joined #lisp 17:27:46 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.252] has joined #lisp 17:27:57 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:28:35 mathrick: I mean, it's not great, but I am surprised about the quality they are able to obtain. 17:29:23 spilman [n=spilman@92.135.207.235] has joined #lisp 17:31:06 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:31:22 ... Going back a few topics, do MFCCs discard the phase information from the FFT, or is that incorporated into the cepstrum somehow? 17:31:23 beach: aye, there are some brilliant examples, sec 17:31:35 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-151-167.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:32:45 -!- demmeln1 [n=Adium@138.246.18.124] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:49 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:12 (I think, after the past half-hour, that I'm a little happier with neural network approaches, though I'll need to look into them a bit more before I actually do anything with them.) 17:33:33 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:29 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@130.83.156.186] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:35:30 if i remember correctly, neural networks as classifiers are well understood. What comes out is, unfortunately, that there is no high-level anything coded in the weights after learning. 17:36:07 beach: it took a while to find a good version, but this is particularly good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0-2lzA7_Cg 17:36:23 ... Why do you need anything from the weights? 17:36:45 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-162-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:59 you don't 17:37:06 they are just parameters for a surface in a very high dimensional space. The neuron metaphor is just a distraction 17:37:12 I guess you get something meaningful from the weights on an HMM... 17:37:21 mathrick: I am having problems with youtube stuff on my 64-bit Ubuntu. I guess I'll check it out when I am on my laptop at work. 17:37:36 Yeah, I think the fact of the distraction thing is what I just picked up on. 17:37:44 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:37:53 beach: all that is Vocaloid², FYI, the first version was, as far as I know, more flexible wrt. vocal ranges, but more mechanical-sounding. For v2, they reverted to sampled real-life singers as the base material 17:38:14 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:38:38 mathrick: sampling sounds like the good thing to do. Then you can "easily" get the singer you want. 17:38:40 -!- varjag [n=eugene@62.97.226.122] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:38:59 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:59 beach: if you want to research it further, Miku, Rin & Len, Luka are all Vocaloid². Meiko and Kaito are Vocaloid¹ 17:39:21 -!- danlei [n=user@82.113.106.154] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:30 mathrick: I'll keep that in mind until the next time I am at work with the laptop with free time. 17:39:36 sure 17:39:40 beach: And, leaving Vocaloid aside, there's also Flinger. 17:40:22 just remember they were created primarily as products to be sold, so you'll get much more info from searching for their personas than the versions of technology, at least as far as hearing them in action goes 17:40:31 nyef: Yes, thanks. I'll probably check that out as well. 17:41:11 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 17:41:17 mathrick: With a bit of luck, the research was published somewhere. 17:41:39 a big glob of luck rather 17:41:51 granted 17:42:01 beach: http://www.ivona.com/ is another very impressive TTS, with sadly no data on its working published 17:42:13 closed source and such 17:42:21 Okay, I'm gone for the rest of the day. 17:42:45 nyef: see you. 17:43:19 mathrick: Yeah, there was an impressive system more than 15 years ago from Sun. Can't remember the name now, though. 17:43:20 I need to do some shopping too, this time hopefully with my CC in the wallet so I can actually pay for what I intend to buy 17:43:35 didn't know Sun dabbled in TTS 17:44:13 Not anymore I think. 17:45:04 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.29.110] has joined #lisp 17:45:05 *beach* vanishes to have dinner. 17:45:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72.255.37.99] has quit [] 17:46:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:46:52 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.95.16] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:52:30 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:53:09 -!- ignas [n=ignas@193.219.43.4] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:54:34 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:54:51 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has joined #lisp 17:55:11 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-81-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:55:59 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95.24.126.105] has quit [] 17:56:27 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:00:25 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-31-109-110.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:00:59 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-151-167.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:43 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:02:05 ErikaHayley [n=ErikaHay@adsl-1-7-246.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:22 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:17 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:06:03 -!- rahul [rjain@clozure-6C5C827B.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: happy thanksgiving!] 18:06:03 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit ["happy thanksgiving!"] 18:07:34 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-177-91.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:10:18 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:12:00 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-94.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:13:08 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:13:41 Ralith_ [n=ralith@142.58.90.101] has joined #lisp 18:14:12 moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-205-041.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:31 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:17:34 ericklc [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 18:18:51 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:19:05 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:45 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-94.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 18:21:48 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:22:00 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:23:50 gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-75-7-16-133.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:54 danlei [n=user@82.113.106.144] has joined #lisp 18:26:23 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:26:24 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:02 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-083-015.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:14 mathrick: still there? 18:28:34 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 18:32:17 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-75-7-16-133.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:35:04 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@74.232.249.27] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:35:16 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [No route to host] 18:37:30 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.204.97] has joined #lisp 18:38:06 Davidbrcz [i=david@212.198.78.230] has joined #lisp 18:38:29 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:10 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-31-109-110.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:13 -!- Eko_ [n=eko@adsl-76-252-40-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:42:35 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:42:47 -!- rbanffy [i=c8e27bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-dqsqxgcxigitdklo] has quit ["Page closed"] 18:43:16 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-159.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:43:59 gruseom [n=daniel@h-64-105-143-250.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:37 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.217.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:37 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:49:05 NNshag [i=user@82.65.68.127] has joined #lisp 18:49:28 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-10-107.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:50:14 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 18:50:57 Eko_ [n=eko@76.252.40.44] has joined #lisp 18:51:51 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:52:32 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:56:35 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:54 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-15-50.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:03:39 _YKY_ [i=YKY@n11649127169.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-80.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:06:39 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441246.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:07:53 -!- johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@74.71.8.202] has quit [] 19:08:37 hello 19:10:04 Jello! 19:12:41 ahaas pasted "my partition-list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91144 19:13:14 This is what I came up with for the simple problem that I posted last night. If anyone has any feedback, I'd appreciate it. 19:14:16 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:14:43 Hmm... Evenly distributed is a bit funky concept. Why do I think Bresenham here? 19:15:10 ahaas: nthcdr/ldiff is awful. 19:15:14 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@142.58.90.101] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:48 pkhuong: What would be preferable? 19:17:15 I thought it was better than using subseq, since I don't have to make a copy of the longer chunk of the list on each iteration. 19:17:48 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:18:09 <_YKY_> How do I put #Escape in a format string (without using ~a)? 19:18:29 what's #Escape? 19:18:33 <_YKY_> i mean #\Escape 19:19:07 <_YKY_> like "hello #\Escape world" 19:19:33 C-q C-[ 19:19:34 in emacs 19:19:36 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 19:19:50 ahaas: you 19:20:00 <_YKY_> I'm using CLISP 19:20:17 ll have to write a function yourself to get both the first n elements and the rest of the list (unless you can do it destructively). 19:20:23 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:36 _YKY_: use ~C? 19:20:40 _YKY_: does Clisp have a text editor? 19:21:12 well, whathever you are using for editing text, just put your escape character literally 19:22:26 <_YKY_> I thought there's a way to put it directly in the string 19:22:32 <_YKY_> Using an escape sequence 19:22:41 just put it there 19:22:51 (format t "Hello World") 19:22:58 <_YKY_> I see... let me try that 19:23:09 pkhuong: Sorry, I don't understand. Are you saying that my solution is flawed, or just that the nthcdr/ldiff stuff is ugly? 19:23:27 ahaas: the latter. 19:23:35 <_YKY_> But I don't know how to type 'escape' in my editor 19:23:50 what's your editor? 19:23:55 _YKY_: then ask # :) 19:24:09 or change your editor to Emacs 19:24:11 <_YKY_> Crimson 19:24:20 stassats: that's an even better idea! 19:24:47 come on the dark side, we have Slime 19:25:10 *cue Ghostbusters music* 19:25:51 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:09 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:26:09 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 19:26:29 But Crimson fits on a single floppy, and makes a great Notepad replacement... 19:26:41 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:37 slash_ [n=Unknown@132.199.228.129] has joined #lisp 19:28:28 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Client Quit] 19:29:02 _YKY_: if you're stuck on windows and ignorant of emacs, can i suggest using lispworks? It, at least, has a decent editor that understands (and talks to) Lisp 19:29:47 and it can do C-q C-[ 19:29:47 _YKY_: even better, emacs + slime, of course. 19:29:48 <_YKY_> I seem to be fine with crimson... 19:29:54 _YKY_: no, you're not 19:30:01 _YKY_: you just don't know any better 19:30:03 <_YKY_> What am I missing? 19:30:18 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:28 minion: slime.mov? 19:30:28 slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 19:30:38 see what you're missing 19:31:10 _YKY_: 50% of the reasons why developing in lisp is so great... interactive development and debugging, cross-reference, autodoc, symbol completion, etc etc etc 19:31:27 pah, spoiled brats. 19:31:29 and a free pony 19:31:31 _YKY_: copy and pasting to a repl is so very, quaint. 19:31:38 drewc, not at all! ;-) 19:31:54 tic: are you a copypasta? 19:32:07 danlei: back 19:32:11 drewc, well, I use Limp (vim), so... 19:32:32 tic: so, you are missing 40% of what makes developing lisp so great. you're getting there. 19:32:46 :P 19:33:31 drewc, yeah! I also have some kind of argument list going in my ecl-enabled Vim. Just need to, uhm, make Vim non-broken (@£$@! blocking main thread!) and I can copycat all the other features Slime has. 19:33:55 Should probably just improve on Emacs' modal mode and vimpulse. 19:33:58 tic: so, if you re-write Vim, you can then re-write slime.el 19:34:10 drewc, something like that, yeah. 19:34:14 SMOP 19:34:26 Exactly. 19:34:28 or in my case, time. 19:34:29 tic: fwiw, i was a vim user, then switched to emacs + viper mode, and slowly weaned myself of viper mode. 19:34:48 i still use vim for vim-like tasks, but you want vim to be emacs, and that's wrong. 19:35:19 drewc, two things I absolutely loathe about Emacs: lack of motions for commands, and the way buffers/frames(?) are handled. 19:35:36 _YKY_: The moral of the story is: if you know what you are missing, you can use whatever you like. But until you know what emacs+slime gives you (and how it fits into the lisp way of life/development), you shouldn't settle for Crimson (for lisp development). 19:35:37 drewc, once they're gone, well, I guess I could live with it. Anyway, that's off-topic. 19:35:40 tic: both of which are easily fixed. 19:36:05 wait... what are motions for commans? 19:36:07 commands 19:36:10 drewc, "easily" -- last time I checked, vimpulse didn't do the right thing with buffers nor motion. 19:36:13 drewc, stuff like ci" 19:36:49 tic: what is 'the right thing'? vim is like open one file at a time.. non? :) 19:36:54 or gq3p instead of, hmm, C-u 3 M-q is it? 19:37:10 drewc, no, heh. I have a 1920x1200 monitor w/ four-five splits open at once, plus tabs. 19:37:15 M-3 M-q 19:38:11 tic: the investment in learning a few new things paid off in an increase in productivity and the ability to use either set of bkeybindings (there are only two!) easily. I can't recommend it enough. 19:38:16 drewc, right thing is mostly really about how frames are placed and how I switch between them. Emacs' programmable, so I should be able to tweak Vimpulse. Just haven't had the time, really. 19:38:21 mathrick: one problem I see is this (just my humble thoughts): a signifiant is just part of the stream of speech, and in order to distinguish these, de saussure uses a model of two chains: one is the chain of signifiants, the other the chain of signifies. a sign is something, where both chains are congruent. you can check for such an entity by testing it with several sentences: if the meaning of a signifiant stays the same, you have the 19:38:22 same entity, if it changes, it's something else. (he uses "force" as an example ... to be forced, the force) the problem is: in order to distinguish the signs, one has to know what they refer to, and vice versa. and this would be a very hard program to write. if you just take the signifiant by itself, it's a mere abstraction, something phonetic, the thing it refers to by itself is philosophical/psycological, but only /both/ are a matter 19:38:22 of language, are objects. 19:38:28 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:38:44 tic: must be easier than re-writing emacs and slime.el in vim and c 19:38:45 drewc, what's "bkeybinding"? (typo?) 19:38:57 typo.. still have not had coffee 19:39:00 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:00 drewc, well, I can write things in Lisp in my Vim, as it has ECL. 19:39:10 need it to type properly! 19:39:16 *tic* felt like he just wrote a "yo dawg" joke. 19:39:39 danlei: that's re: what exactly? 19:39:41 tic: fair enough. 19:40:41 drewc, although, heh, I can't use regular Lisp functions where Vim expects VimScript functions. Bleh. I think I can work around that by mangling names and automagically producing a VimScript function calling the Lisp function. But it all becomes very convoluted quick, and you still have the ugly C core. So yeah, I agree with you. 19:41:01 mathrick: it's something i wanted to explain earlier, when my connection broke up. because, if I understood you right, you wanted to check grammar by "understanding". but before you can take a look at grammar, you'll have to distinguish the signs of the language you want to reason about (if you want to process them with a program) 19:41:14 mathrick: so not a re per se, just my thoughts 19:41:40 tic: seems like it's easier to learn emacs than to make vim usable.... that was the conclusion i came to oh-so-many years ago :). I don't regret it, as emacs is a lot more then vim in so many ways :) 19:41:53 tic: there's no org-mode for vim! 19:42:08 drewc, I know, I know! But you have to consider all the prestige! :-) 19:42:32 tic: fortune and glory, again fair enough :) 19:42:36 mathrick: grammar in natural language can't really be described by a fixed formal grammar. this would only work for a few examples. linguists tried hard and long to do that, but the success came with quantitative linguistics, which is -- still today -- frowned upon. 19:42:44 (not really, at this point it's a few useful plugins, plus the most-commonly used commands from Vim that I really need to port to Emacs.) 19:43:08 oh well, guess I have my weekend planned! 19:43:13 :) 19:43:22 danlei: ah, so if I read it correctly, you're basically saying that meaning and grammar are codependent; if so, we're very wordily agreeing with each other :) 19:45:12 mathrick: maybe. the problem is, that thinking/understanding is a cognitive process. these can't be a matter of empirical science, because they're philosophical things. one postulates, what thinking and knowing is. we will never understand thinking/understanding by looking at the brain, I guess. cognitive things can't be researched empirically, I think. 19:45:30 Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has joined #lisp 19:45:39 daniel: and If we can't really learn what they are (empirically), how do you want to model these things by programs? 19:45:59 did you mean to say daniel there? 19:46:05 no, mathrick :) 19:46:09 Hi people! Is there a queue data-type in lisp? 19:46:15 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 19:46:23 Pete_R, sure, the list. 19:46:24 mathrick: that's where quantitative linguistics come into play 19:46:25 push and pop from the right locations. 19:46:27 or the vector 19:46:41 mathrick: the combination of heuristics, and formal means seems to produce the best results 19:46:41 tic: list as a queue = slow 19:46:44 Thanks! :) 19:46:52 Pete_R: don't listen to them! 19:46:55 there's even no list data-type 19:47:14 drewc: so what do i use then? 19:47:16 drewc, if you append to it and remove from the end? 19:47:32 tic: slow! 19:47:39 -!- splittist [n=David@188.62.245.30] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 19:47:39 tic: you at least need to keep a pointer to the tail 19:48:07 Pete_R: there is a decent queue implementation in PAIP, otherwise use a library, or the code from paip. 19:48:08 drewc, well, yeah. that was implicit, heh. 19:48:09 danlei: the entire cognitive process thing is icky and fraught with metaphysics of the bad kind 19:48:25 *tic* shuts up and goes back to tea. 19:48:40 mathrick: well, so you can examine "thinking" by empirically examining .. what? the brain? how humans behave? 19:48:51 mathrick: what /is/ thinking? 19:49:08 danlei: I'm not saying that, I'm just saying it's a very icky topic with a lot of questionable research 19:49:27 mathrick: yes, that's my point 19:49:34 *mathrick* points at the Chinese Room Experiment and goes into rage 19:49:41 :) 19:49:52 minion: tell Pete_R about PAIP 19:49:53 Pete_R: direct your attention towards PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 19:50:36 daniel: one could try to examine "thinking" by "semantische begriffsanalyse", or by social analysis ... and so on 19:51:07 did I mention that you people are the best? :D 19:51:09 s/daniel/mathrick/ again :) 19:51:13 in (but I'm, as I said, just starting out, everything I say here is to be taken cum grano salis) 19:51:46 Pete_R: we aim to please! 19:52:01 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h-64-105-143-250.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:16 mathrick: ah, completion gone wild :) 19:52:41 Pete_R: searching for 'queue' on cliki should get you a few results as well. 19:52:43 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-177-91.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:55 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:55 danlei: of course, at some point cognition is as much data as it's the code (har har #lisp), but the point is not to let ourselves get boggled by black boxes relying purely on throwing enough crap at the wall that something sticks and seems to hold mostly 19:53:04 ruediger [n=quassel@188.23.177.91] has joined #lisp 19:55:29 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:55:29 danlei: I'm not claiming you can build a system that's conscious just by itself without any body of "knowledge" imparted, just like you can't build a useful dictionary app without a corpus. But I still believe deeply it's possible to build a system that will lend itself to analysis even after it has the proper ontology or however you call it loaded 19:55:52 just because *we* have been designed messily and by chance and are damn impossible to understand doesn't mean everything has to be 19:55:56 mathrick: the whole topic is very interesting, I wish I was more advanced. I'm studying philosophy, too, and I'm very interested in epistemology and try to take as many courses about it, as I can. (while I spend the most time with linguistics) 19:56:11 mathrick: well 19:56:17 mathrick: a dictionary lists words 19:56:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:56:31 mathrick: but I already told you: words are /not/ the fundamental units of text 19:56:40 mathrick: that's a problem I see there 19:56:43 that doesn't matter, it was just a model 19:57:04 ok 19:57:19 you can write code all you want, it won't be a dictionary before you give it the corpus to work with 19:57:26 but the code itself isn't random 19:58:04 aintme [n=Miranda@77.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:58:10 and the same way you can't have proper understanding without a corpus of knowledge of some kind, but it doesn't mean the whole machinery has to be random 19:59:37 one problem is: are we going to be capable of emulating human "sprachvermögen" by a combination of heuristics, a "knowledge base", and formal means. I'm not advanced enough to tell ... 19:59:38 but that's how our best systems work today: get a bunch of chaos theory, add some law of large numbers and watch it grow 19:59:41 s/one/the/ 20:00:03 danlei: vermögen is "capability"? 20:00:19 mathrick: yes, thanks 20:00:27 danlei: yes, that combination is what I'm referring to 20:00:48 but NNs for instance have not a lot of formal means going 20:01:11 all the actual workings are inside the heuristics, and that's just not appealing to the mathematician in me 20:01:16 mathrick: I'm still in the very beginnings of my education, so I'm maybe not the right one to talk to. :) nevertheless, I'm already very interested :) 20:01:22 is this dialogue on-topic? 20:01:31 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:32 hm 20:01:44 stassats: that's a very good question, why don't you build a cognitive bot to evaluate it and tell us :) 20:02:03 i agree with stassats guys, lisp or shut it :) 20:02:11 it certainly began on-topic, but I can't tell if it still is 20:02:18 (shut myself :when 'now) 20:02:28 drewc: but my lisp joke, how could you miss it! 20:02:57 mathrick: you said "th" instead of "s"? 20:03:00 mathrick: I got it :) 20:03:16 stassats: better, I referred to code as data 20:03:23 anyway, point taken 20:06:53 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:07:28 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:08:14 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@70.249.156.223] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:26 dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-156-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:26 -!- luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:10:30 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit ["the old ways are lost"] 20:11:16 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-156-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:31 luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 20:11:36 dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-156-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:49 sellout- [n=greg@75.25.126.88] has joined #lisp 20:12:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:12:57 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 20:14:38 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 20:16:47 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:17 -!- arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.98.112] has quit [] 20:21:03 danlei: btw, this is a pretty interesting problem related to building systems with "understanding" in them: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/01/pinocchio-problem.html 20:22:50 -!- sellout [n=greg@75.25.126.88] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:12 francogrex [n=user@91.177.159.156] has joined #lisp 20:24:09 puchacz [n=puchacz@87.194.5.99] has joined #lisp 20:24:14 benny` [n=benny@i577A10E7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:46 -!- benny` is now known as benny 20:27:28 milan [n=milan@93.86.213.211] has joined #lisp 20:28:03 -!- ericklc [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:10 ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 20:31:06 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@71.197.180.162] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:34 I have a question for tough people; i mean real tough people 20:32:00 mathrick: I love this quote: "Java programmers prefer to write dead systems, and any hint of a breath of life in the system bothers them greatly." 20:35:27 it requires knowledge of CL, C and cffi (some vba is also good) 20:35:59 you better just ask your question 20:36:10 haha 20:36:21 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@71.197.180.162] has joined #lisp 20:36:27 ok here is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/91146 20:36:29 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.204.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:37:03 -!- aintme [n=Miranda@77.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [";;"] 20:42:26 note that i can easily return multiple values from a C function into lisp by using ecl (and storing within the C function the values into a C-ECL list or vector, but in this case i don't want to use ecl. 20:44:33 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.183.244] has joined #lisp 20:46:36 *mathrick* notes that people who name arguments "sz" deserve to be taken behind the barn and shot 20:47:44 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:48:25 XDDD 20:48:47 how else can you know it's a zero-terminated string? 20:48:48 that's a nickname for size; size is just too brutal 20:48:48 sheesh. 20:49:36 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:45 more brutal than being shot? 20:49:49 tic, are you talking to me? 20:49:59 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:32 francogrex, does it look like I'm talking to you? (no, it was about mathrick's statement on sz hungarian notation) 20:51:17 tic, sz comes from my code FYI 20:51:38 francogrex, oh. my bad then. Well, I'd still name it size, unless there was a clash. 20:52:13 francogrex: depends on how much wrapping you want to do 20:52:19 the simplest case is pretty simple 20:52:52 no, I mean the CL CFFI code 20:53:24 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:53:43 you declare the argument type as just :pointer, and then access the individual elements by MEM-AREF 20:53:47 that's the low level 20:53:50 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-205-041.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:54:10 hmm seems pretty straightforward 20:54:34 MEM-AREF is cffi specific? 20:54:40 yes 20:55:13 you can build wrappers on top of it, although there's no easy way to do it automatically with TRANSLATE-*-FOREIGN at the moment, due to the lack of a way to declare type which means "ARG1 is a pointer to an array of ARG2 elements" 20:56:18 mathrick: true, I realize that you have to send argument one as a pointer as well to the dll 20:57:22 well, that at least is easy, LISP-ARRAY-TO-FOREIGN and or the whole WITH-FOREIGN-* family 20:57:24 say it's a CL list that you want to send to the dll to get back the output 20:57:31 ok 20:57:50 if it's a list, you'd best coerce it to an array first 20:58:00 yes ok 20:58:20 (WITH-FOREIGN-ARRAY (...) ...) does all the work for you 20:58:22 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:31 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188.23.177.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:22 and FOREIGN-ARRAY-TO-LISP takes care of translating things back if you're going to use it more 20:59:31 if not, just MEM-AREF seems like the easiest option 21:02:50 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:04:03 ok great. thanks. probably i'll start with MEM-AREF 21:04:45 -!- sebyte [n=sebyte@vps203.linuxvps.org] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 21:04:51 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:51 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78.72.33.106] has quit [Client Quit] 21:07:25 mathrick: thanks for the link! bookmarked, will take a look tomorrow (almost at sleep atm) 21:07:36 good night then 21:07:49 thanks 21:08:05 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212.198.78.230] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:12:46 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 21:13:23 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:15:09 francogrex: btw, you were the one who looked for ideas on controlling lotus notes? 21:16:29 p_l: yes 21:16:38 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit ["the old ways are lost"] 21:16:48 that's because it could be done in SAS 21:16:59 using VIM or MIPS I think 21:17:10 zbeasnyy [n=mornfall@147.251.45.128] has joined #lisp 21:17:13 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:23 -!- zbeasnyy [n=mornfall@147.251.45.128] has quit [Client Quit] 21:17:45 -!- spilman [n=spilman@92.135.207.235] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:17:46 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 21:20:07 danlei: http://www.glottopedia.de/index.php/Main_Page <-- just discovered that 21:20:08 VIM for Lotus Notes and MAPI for Exchange 21:20:09 davazp [n=user@165.Red-83-55-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:17 p_l: do you have other ideas? (I think you or someone else suggested rdnzl) 21:20:32 I was the one who suggested RDNZL 21:21:29 Anyway, I looked into it and I'm thinking of rewriting RDNZL into a proper, fully functional .NET hosting module 21:21:30 p_l: yes it's ok, I have started to look at it. it needed the .NET thingie 21:22:06 p_l: you wrore rdnzl? pretty cool 21:22:18 no, I'm not the original author 21:22:33 that honour goes to Edi Weitz 21:22:38 well, but you seem to be one of the developers 21:22:58 ok, does he also hang out here? 21:23:02 p_l: what's a .NET hosting module? 21:24:19 mathrick: .NET (both Microsoft's and Mono) supports the so called hosted mode 21:24:39 ah, like embedded JVM? 21:24:45 or embedded python for that matter? 21:25:03 yes - it basically embeds the runtime inside your application (full runtime - the "normal" apps are actually started the same way) 21:25:11 p_l: you might want to look into FOIL 21:25:16 it went the opposite route 21:25:24 for some well-justified reasons 21:25:41 mathrick: yes, FOIL used sockets, iirc 21:25:45 http://foil.sourceforge.net/ 21:25:47 yes 21:25:53 it started out as JFLI 21:25:57 which used hosted JVM 21:26:12 then morphed into Foil, which used sockets 21:26:19 then into Clojure, but that's a different story :) 21:26:51 my plan is nevertheless to embed .NET, with a rather "involved" implementation on .NET side (or to be exact, with extra stuff available to write .NET code happy to talk with Lisp) 21:26:58 a friend has written a thesis with it, controlling a JVM app from CL 21:27:04 it's usable, although not entirely without issues 21:27:42 p_l: so .NET APIs to create Lisp-friendly code? 21:27:59 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-177-91.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:28:16 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:20 mathrick: more like a set of attribute classes as well as interfaces that would allow easy switching between 21:28:44 that's still APIs in my book 21:29:48 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7574f9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:55 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:26 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 21:34:56 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:02 mathrick: well, count them as APIs - I've got a big prospective project that would depend on those (including fast switching) 21:35:47 I'm even considering runtime code generation, kinda like parenscript, except directly into .NET assembly 21:36:57 p_l: fast switching in the programmer time or execution time sense? 21:37:42 mathrick: execution time 21:39:31 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:42 -!- milan [n=milan@93.86.213.211] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:40:24 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EF5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:24 implementation of CL's "protocols" in form of interfaces that can be then implemented by classes, attributes to easily find apriopriate routines without too much search etc. 21:41:08 pjb [n=t@88.30.105.0] has joined #lisp 21:41:25 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-111.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:41:46 sounds interesting 21:41:50 -!- r0bby_ is now known as r0bby 21:42:36 p_l: so I take it you'd make it fully bidirectional, as opposed to today's RDNZL which mostly supports Lisp calling .NET only? 21:42:39 mathrick: well, I already have a project for it 21:42:56 what project? 21:43:15 my idealistic McCLIM WPF backend :) 21:43:33 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229164112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:27 also, I was thinking of preparing a whole suite of portable win32/win64 Lisp interfaces 21:47:19 that one could be considered "Common Lisp Windows Platform SDK" 21:48:15 similar to the LispWorks XP GUI toolkit? 21:49:32 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:50:32 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:50:56 tic: more - LispWorks, ACL & Corman already contain stuff like COM/DCOM etc. 21:51:29 I want to make a set of libraries where you could just drop them in, and access all windows apis you need 21:52:31 (clbuild-like thing included to get your usual libs) 21:54:41 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229114212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:45 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:01 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:57:01 -!- danlei [n=user@82.113.106.144] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:58:26 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:38 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:59:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:59:45 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:04:47 I'm happy to see more CL work oriented towards windows. 22:04:55 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.245] has joined #lisp 22:05:10 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:05:32 francogrex: I lost night trying to get all necessary tools prepared, and I still haven't finished :/ 22:05:35 oh, the fools 22:05:40 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:02 p_l: was that planned or was anything prompted by my request? 22:06:37 francogrex: I was planning to do that sometime anyway, but it backfired on me - I still need to get back my secondary laptop and set it up properly... 22:06:49 then I'd have a stable dev environment for windows 22:06:52 no 22:06:59 sry 22:07:20 I hate to have people losing sleep and health over a programming tasks, as it is programming is addictive (esecially CL coding) 22:08:12 decto [n=9@78-22-118-207.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:09:15 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:12:05 why doesn't McCLIM support transparent pixmaps? how can I implement 'TeX like' display of mathematical expressions if all the antialiased fonts are specified by CLIM spec and pixmaps don't have alpha (I would use manual cl-vectors approach)? 22:13:05 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:48 arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.98.112] has joined #lisp 22:15:21 night 22:16:13 CL programming is very addictive 22:16:17 it's true 22:16:35 programming is very addictive 22:16:42 it's like solving a puzzle 22:16:59 it is solving a puzzle/problem 22:17:03 true true, but lisp perhaps even more since there is less boilerplate 22:18:36 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-224-205.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:19:20 milanj [n=milan@93.86.213.211] has joined #lisp 22:20:51 Krystof_ [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:21:50 good night arabesca 22:21:56 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@n11649127169.netvigator.com] has left #lisp 22:22:11 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:00 madnificent hi ^^ 22:28:21 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:30:46 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:52 -!- decto [n=9@78-22-118-207.access.telenet.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:34:43 decto [n=azepajep@78-22-118-207.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:35:35 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.251] has quit [Success] 22:38:30 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:53 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:20 -!- decto [n=azepajep@78-22-118-207.access.telenet.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:41:45 good night 22:42:19 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d2de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["'t is some visitor, I muttered, rapping at my chamber door"] 22:42:21 francogrex: btw, I lost all that time trying first to run windows under qemu, then installing Visual Studio 2010 :) 22:43:03 uh 22:43:11 vs 10 is already out? 22:43:43 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:44:47 bhiggins [n=bmarsell@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:06 is ``Erik a tribute to a Naggum? 22:45:13 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-81-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:44 arabesca: beta 2 22:47:13 ah ok 22:49:20 bhiggins: I'm sure there is more than one person on this planet with that name right now (: 22:49:54 I've seen photos. They exist. 22:55:55 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:56:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:17 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87.194.5.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:09 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99.138.48.236] has joined #lisp 23:01:44 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:55 -!- ErikaHayley [n=ErikaHay@adsl-1-7-246.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:02:36 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-058-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:58 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:46 -!- Krystof_ [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:04:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:22 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.213.211] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:04:35 -!- davazp [n=user@165.Red-83-55-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:55 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:06:59 sellout- [n=greg@75.25.126.88] has joined #lisp 23:07:04 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.159.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:27 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 23:08:41 oh this is great 23:08:43 http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/infocom/interpreters/emacs/malyon.el 23:11:18 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.134.66.143] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:27 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@132.199.228.129] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:07 sweet 23:15:30 ziga``` [n=user@89.142.216.249] has joined #lisp 23:18:58 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.211.124] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:22:49 dysinger_ [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:11 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["good night!"] 23:23:49 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:12 -!- dysinger_ [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:25:38 rvirding [n=chatzill@h92n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:30 antifuchs: no, the whole `` 23:26:44 damnit, i feel a Naggum coming on 23:27:02 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229164112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:27:37 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 23:30:03 -!- ziga`` [n=user@BSN-176-196-19.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:30:04 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:19 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@75.85.132.170] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 23:34:40 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:22 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:47:09 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:51:05 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:54:43 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["bedtime"] 23:56:01 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:49 alama [n=alama@81.84.249.124] has joined #lisp