00:01:04 fe[nl]ix, my father is French. 00:02:01 lai = half-blood (itself an insult) 00:02:11 tây = west 00:02:12 yeah, I think I've personally met the entire established vietnamese lisping community, actually :P 00:02:33 the French were initially the only westerners in VN, so they got the name. 00:02:33 (Fare and pkhuong) 00:02:40 Fare: I was a vietnam expat for 3 months :-) 00:02:55 rahul: beach is an honorary cl-viet 00:03:22 an adoptive father, almost, it seems 00:03:50 nurturing them on lisp the way a mother nurtures a child with milk 00:03:51 -!- acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has quit ["leaving"] 00:03:54 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:04:11 Fare: bas inta arabi kaman :-) or at least you know a word of it ;-) 00:04:42 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@88.174.11.170] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:04:42 as a bonus, vietnam is dirt cheap 00:04:43 focusing intelligent people on programming might save their lives, too -- when they debug a program, they don't think impure thoughts that will lead them to concentration camp. 00:04:55 heh 00:04:57 ... 00:05:19 kidd [n=kidd@171.Red-88-16-67.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:37 i do most of my good thinking in concentration-room; if I had a whole camp to myself who knows what i would achieve 00:05:49 !! 00:06:43 fusss: you might have to share the camp with a few thousand other prisoners. 00:09:16 -!- kidd [n=kidd@171.Red-88-16-67.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10:40 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.154] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:11:38 ok, I'm out to get some food and drink 00:13:10 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:16:28 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:18:04 rahul: Yeah, it's dirt cheap. I never encountered much for computer talent there though. No "hacker culture". I'm sure it exists but it seems far more rare than in the US. 00:19:06 well, it's hard for them to afford much in the way of computers 00:19:24 I'm sure there's plenty of a motorbike/scooter hacker culture, tho :) 00:19:57 anyawy, my stomach is starting to feel like a california earthquake... I'm out 00:20:24 redblue [i=star@ppp211.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:21:10 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:10 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:23:51 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:26:04 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:32 rahul: computers are everywhere in Vietnam, at least in Saigon 00:27:09 The Linux User Group there is in sad shape. I attended the founding meeting. It's hard to find anyone who gives a care. 00:27:42 And be careful talking about "free as in freedom". And with the adoration of money and Bill Gates there it's hard for anyone to understand why they should take a look at it. Especially since piracy is rampant. 00:28:56 tessier, grab those who care and hire them! 00:31:06 -!- shoafb [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:11 Fare: I'm sino-cambodian, actually (: 00:31:45 computers are getting cheaper, and old computers are good enough to develop software -- the hard limit being human creativity. 00:32:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:26 pkhuong, ah, my mother would have had words against this horrible invading race. 00:32:44 the chinese are the jews of asia! 00:33:03 but you have a VN name. 00:33:32 so canada from china by way of cambodia and vietnam... 00:34:23 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 00:34:37 do you know if you're a han or some other kind of chinese? 00:34:41 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 00:34:50 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:35:18 Fare: northerner, on my mother's side. 00:35:36 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:13 shoafb [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:22 -!- jawhite [n=jolyonw@124-168-182-74.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 00:36:28 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 00:37:32 north of china? 00:38:15 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:02 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:32 Right. 00:42:50 viets don't like chinese, for sure. the small chinese community in saigon became the boat-people. 00:43:26 feud between viets & chinese goes a long way. 00:43:41 non-racism is a very recent, westerner-only, concept. 00:44:27 Fare: you sure about the westerner-only part? 00:44:36 mostly so. 00:44:51 and even then. 00:45:36            00:46:34 Tordek [n=tordek@host141.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:46:55 "there is no preference for an arab over a non-arab, and a non-arab over an arab, except in their devotion to God" -- circa 590AD 00:47:19 fusss: from the pov of Far East, we probably count as westerners... 00:47:32 gonzojive_ [n=red@24.4.39.224] has joined #lisp 00:47:40 *araujo* bets that if we finally remove God and religions we would remove racism pretty much too 00:47:58 araujo: not racism, just fanaticism 00:48:01 fusss, a few writings like that don't change the tribal attitude of people. 00:48:17 fusss, not really, fanaticism might happen in many fields 00:48:26 but racism goes very well close to religions 00:48:36 araujo: racism is rather in-built part of our psychology (at much lower level than you think, it's linked with basic social mechanism and fear of unknown) 00:48:50 p_l, what is God? 00:48:55 araujo, lispers are not fanatics. Non-lispers, those subhumans, are fanatics. 00:48:57 p_l, precisely my point 00:49:11 p_l, God is just a concept coming out of that fear too, and at some degree, feeding that fear 00:50:08 araujo: partially, yes 00:50:30 lispers are rational people, who understand the beauty of the lambda 00:50:50 hehe 00:50:51 non-lispers are stupid beasts and/or should be converted 00:51:23 -!- shoafb [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:51:33 all lisper are great, and few are greater than the rest 00:51:48 (last time I trolled on the family mailing list, my grand father replied, not getting the irony) 00:52:25 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 00:52:52 *fusss* can't stomach vi using lispers 00:53:05 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 00:54:36 back to business 00:55:51 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:27 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:40 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp211.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 01:02:14 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:05:01 Boston Lisp Meeting: Thursday 2009-12-14 Sam Tobin-Hochstadt http://fare.livejournal.com/149685.html 01:07:14 ... Do I remember rightly that we had a typed scheme presentation at northeaster once already? 01:07:49 In, if memory serves, a room in the student center? 01:09:39 -!- Mathieu [n=mlegrand@222.164.164.144] has quit [] 01:09:56 Ah, maybe you're thinking of the structure editor or whatever? 01:10:08 Not unrelated areas. 01:10:29 there were two talks that day in that room, 01:10:36 one about the structured editor 01:10:40 Oh, right ... yeah, you're right. 01:10:46 Krishnamurthi gave it. 01:11:00 Yeah, the same day as the structure editor talk. 01:11:17 the other about parametrically polymorphic contracts 01:11:26 Related, but slightly different from Felleisen's stuff. But I always forget where the line is drawn. 01:11:30 Ahh, -that's- the one I was thinking of. 01:11:41 definitely related 01:11:45 but still different 01:11:48 Yeah 01:12:30 *Fare* fires away the spam machine 01:12:55 You're thinking of that: http://fare.livejournal.com/126150.html 01:14:10 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:14:47 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:12 are there lispers around Albany, NY, or Troy, NY? 01:17:48 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-224-205.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:19:30 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@168.105.232.71] has joined #lisp 01:19:55 gah, I managed to mess up the day-of-week again! 01:20:05 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@168.105.232.71] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:10 lol i'm been following the strangest thread on a forum, it start of with does the indirection in C++ bring to high a cost, and now has turned to a defence of C++ against Java, with them having to argue that you can right allocators in C++ to compete against, it all seems a little mixed up 01:20:19 i'm/i've 01:20:41 right/write 01:21:02 damn i should have read over that 01:22:00 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-48-83.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:26:57 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host141.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:30:02 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:30:06 -!- beach [n=user@90.60.123.22] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:26 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:27 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-28-95.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:11 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@188.104.85.104] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:38:58 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:39:30 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:39 Alphonse [n=sean@dhcp-128-171-180-232.peac.hawaii.edu] has joined #lisp 01:44:28 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-77-125.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 01:45:09 Guthur: and the connection to lisp is? 01:47:26 drewc: probably the same people would have troubles understanding lisp (just a hunk) 01:47:33 *hunch 01:48:11 drewc well i did mention lisp in the thread 01:48:25 p_l: if this were #most-people-are-idiots, it would be on topic ;) 01:49:32 ;-) 01:51:03 and java portion was in regards to managed memory model, so you could maybe replace java with lisp, but java's GC et al is probably slightly beter 01:51:06 Wow, that sucked. Tried using scilab, and it pegged my CPU and completely locked my X server. I could wave the cursor, and caps lock still worked, but no interaction. :-/ 01:51:06 better* 01:51:24 Guthur: why would you think that? 01:51:35 drewc which part 01:52:07 that java could be replaced with lisp or the java probably being slightly more efficient 01:52:16 "but java's GC et al is probably slightly beter" (btw, get a fscking spell checker or slow down) 01:52:18 in the latter, budget mainly 01:52:21 well, both really. 01:52:45 drewc fscking? 01:52:46 what does 'better' mean in this context? 01:53:14 Guthur: a polite way to say "you look like an idiot when you mispell so frequently" 01:53:32 drewc: faster, less overhead, higher performing. 01:55:01 I actually going by what has been mentioned here, that java's GC is better performing due to budget 01:55:31 how objectively true is that? It would seem to me that there is neither one 'Java' GC, nor one 'Lisp' GC, and furthermore the possiblity that the languages differ enough that the GC's might have wildy differing performance characteristics... 01:55:36 never benched it myself, doesn't sound improbable though 01:56:04 And, assuming ABCL is using native GC... the point is, well, pointless :D 01:56:04 drewc: there are language-independent GC microbenchmarks. 01:56:25 umm I thought there really is only one Java, and that is from Sun 01:56:55 No, Sun is merely in charge of the language spec. There are several different JVMs out there. 01:57:04 Guthur: is that java5? java6? j2me? 01:57:07 At least one of which is written in Lisp. 01:57:11 Guthur: nope, there are a couple third-party JVMs that are used in industry, and even Sun's JVM offers multiple GCs. 01:57:34 ya see that now, there you go learn something new 01:57:51 pkhuong: are those microbenchmarks actually useful for more than microbenchmarking? 01:58:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.157.222.92] has joined #lisp 01:58:17 never really looked at Java much 01:58:18 drewc: microbenchmarks are always useful to gain a better understanding of how the system behaves. 01:58:41 there are two different JVMs from Sun, with the mainline one having two separate modes till iirc 1.5 or 1.6, then there's IBM's JVM (which is afaik still 1.4), Compaq/HP one (few different VMs, I think the HP one for HP/UX and Compaq/DEC-derived one for VMS) 01:58:52 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 01:58:54 and that's the beginning of the list... 01:59:32 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:59:34 pkhuong: fair enough. 01:59:44 -!- Alphonse [n=sean@dhcp-128-171-180-232.peac.hawaii.edu] has left #lisp 02:00:56 or azu systems's JVM (: 02:02:04 pkhuong: well, the one's I mentioned are the ones I had some kind of direct or indirect contact (knowing about it) 02:02:40 there is also the jvm for Android, which is the only one i have any reason to touch :) 02:03:06 i think Lisp on Java is a little faster at time due to the lazy descrutors 02:03:27 the lazy desructors 02:03:30 drewc: it's not a JVM 02:03:46 but there is no reason it should be slow when not on java! :) 02:04:31 gruseom [n=daniel@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:07 where java might do dumb slow things it makes up for it in lazy GC 02:05:20 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:31 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-225.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:05:55 but loses when it comes to its lack of valuetypes .. amking it consume alot more ram at times 02:07:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.157.222.92] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 02:07:34 example: lisp in C . has a string.. it is merly a pointer to an address with a null terminated string.. java lisp can never get that simple 02:08:26 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:09:06 or in C a string is a pointer to a address with teh first few bytes the specifying length of the mutable string 02:10:37 java at best lets say passes around a "char[]" array of maybe for more complex types of lisp chars a "int[]" 02:10:42 nyef which JVM is in lisp 02:11:08 Guthur: "CLOAK". 02:11:14 rrice [n=rrice@76.253.142.92] has joined #lisp 02:11:35 CLOAK even can run eclipse! 02:12:41 Ooh! And can the host lisp run eclipse at the same time? 02:13:41 i believe so.. though i dont remmber how all the SWT worked out 02:14:02 but from wha i understnad is it did work 02:14:20 And what about involving ABCL? 02:14:31 its not being developed though, is it? 02:14:38 run ABCL on cloak? 02:14:47 hehe 02:15:02 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:14 lichtblau is the cloak author 02:15:58 ya from his blog he says he stopped working on it, and just released as is 02:16:21 unless that has changed, old blog post 02:16:32 i work on a separate java lisp from abcl.. but i am always trying to merge the two codebases 02:17:15 since they both do things dumb the other one doesnt 02:17:17 p_l: oh? i thought it was... is it just a JRE and a compiler of some sort? 02:17:18 you can ash lichtblau. 02:17:35 ask, even (too much bit frobbing in CL?) 02:17:43 (abcl v larkc) 02:18:28 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-225.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:18:33 pkhuong: bit frobbing? 02:18:43 "ash". 02:19:13 its ok, i don't think anyone noticed, hehe 02:19:31 drewc: it's a completely different, incompatible VM 02:19:33 actually i read it as 'ask' 02:19:44 i believe cloak a jvm.. not a jre .. it interprets java .class files 02:20:01 drewc: it just includes a compiler that takes JVM bytecode and generates Dalvik bytecode 02:20:11 -java 02:20:25 (compiler is part of the SDK - you can't do it on-the-fly) 02:20:31 ah thanks p_l 02:21:36 it gives extra trouble to certain languages implemented on JVM, because they can't do run-time code generation 02:21:52 for example, clojure 02:22:08 pkhuong i'm only getting that now, hehe 02:22:35 your lispy joke was lost on me 02:23:40 drewc: Google apparently found their custom design to work better than trying to support a complete JVM 02:24:10 (and the VMs differ a lot) 02:24:34 jawhite [n=jolyonwh@203.143.170.201] has joined #lisp 02:24:46 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:21 -!- Sukoshi`` is now known as GrayGnome 02:29:39 fusss: herep 02:29:39 the whole Dalvik VM vs. JVM reminds me of a quote from some USENIX conference I had seen once 02:29:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:30:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-225.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:31:37 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051075174.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:31:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-4.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:32:11 -!- durbin [n=durbin@adsl-99-181-3-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:19 prxq [n=mommer@f051006192.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:34:42 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:37:01 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:47:59 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@168.105.232.71] has joined #lisp 02:48:21 hello 02:48:23 I have a question for someone with more knowledge than I 02:49:03 If I have a list of instances of objects, is there an easy way to remove one from the list? not just set it to nill, but actually remove it? 02:49:16 clhs remove 02:49:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 02:49:23 Maybe that? 02:49:48 mutew [n=mutew@128.220.251.38] has joined #lisp 02:49:56 The_Doctor: You mean like deallocate? 02:50:00 Though you have a terminology problem surrounding "instances", "objects", and possibly "classes" and "types". 02:50:18 maybe i'm just using it wrong.. i'll go check the components 02:50:32 (not to mention 'nill' :)) 02:50:48 slip of the finger sorry 02:52:25 hmm.. well, i have an object instance set to a variable k 02:52:42 The_Doctor: what is an 'object instance 02:52:45 '? 02:53:30 (setq objectinstance (make-instance 'classname)) 02:54:02 yes the terminalogy is sloppy.. sorry... 02:54:05 but basically i have this 02:54:14 i hear you should always use setf 02:54:22 instance = # 02:54:22 and 02:54:29 list = (#) 02:54:45 but i cant (remove item list) 02:54:55 very odd... seems contradictory to the spec 02:55:07 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.29.110] has joined #lisp 02:55:22 The_Doctor: are you expecting the list itself to be modified? 02:55:35 yes 02:55:38 hopefully 02:55:52 The_Doctor: that would contradict the spec for remove... try reading it again. 02:56:16 well do you know of a function that can modify the list? or... oh.. i get it... 02:56:23 nvm i'll just remove and reassign 02:56:27 thanks 02:56:52 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:08 The_Doctor: DELETE will modify the list, but if you are expecting it to work in all cases, then you need to learn how lists are constructed to figure out why it won't work. 02:57:39 I am looking for a good text for someone starting to learn Lisp. 02:57:48 for now, use REMOVE and re-assign the variable holding LIST to the new list... or use REMOVEF 02:57:56 minion: tell mutew about pcl 02:57:57 GigiaM's book or ACL. 02:57:58 mutew: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:58:21 aha, I just started reading that. 02:58:22 Also Graham's ACL. 02:58:25 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:58:26 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:58:34 mutew: stay away from graham IMO.. it's crap. 02:58:37 Would that suffice for an introduction or should I look at something else too? 02:58:43 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 02:58:50 drewc: defend that! 02:58:52 mutew: are you an experienced programmer? 02:59:03 Depends on your definition of experienced 02:59:30 caoliver: sure : graham is not a terribly great lisper, his code is non-ideomatic and often incorrect, he uses terrible naming conventions and wants CL to be scheme. 02:59:45 To be blunt: I repect Paul's disdain for loop, and find deplorable Sieble's embrace of it. 03:00:20 Peter's code though seems to have a substantial Java accept to it. 03:00:22 caoliver: and nonsense like that is the reason i tell newbs to avoid graham. 03:00:37 s/accept/accent/ 03:00:39 milanj [n=milan@93.87.166.147] has joined #lisp 03:00:58 minion: tell mutew about gentle 03:01:05 mutew: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 03:01:11 *p_l* started by reading PGs essays... then he read Kenny's blog and converted to CLOS & MOP then read PCL and started his own path 03:01:27 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:01:27 Not nonsense. I detest how loop breaks the car = operator / cdr = operand list paradigm. 03:01:37 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:01:43 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@66.192.188.156] has joined #lisp 03:02:05 caoliver: so, don't use it. It's still nonsense to prefer recursion, which is what graham advocates. 03:02:25 caoliver: do you discount CLOS too? 03:02:26 Also read Gabriel's and Steele's comments in the HOPL Evolution of Lisp. 03:02:34 No. I LIKE CLOS. 03:02:43 but only because the CL designers screwed up and didn't make TCO mandatory. 03:02:49 caoliver: well, you're not a total write-off then :) 03:03:11 Adamant: how was that a mistake? 03:03:13 drewc: thanks. 03:03:25 drewc: That seems to be enough material to last me a week. 03:03:30 i personally _like_ debugging recursive functions via a stack trace ;) 03:03:48 drewc: stack traces are for girly men 03:03:49 Adamant: "screwed up"? Please, provide me with a definition of tail call position as solid as that found in r5rs. 03:03:49 :P 03:03:58 mutew: gentle is very basic, but recommended. 03:04:13 drewc: Got it, you're really Guido! 03:04:24 pkhuong: que? 03:04:45 caoliver: whatever that means... i'm not some PG fanboi, if that's the issue. 03:05:13 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:05:17 -!- voidpointer [n=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit ["bzz"] 03:05:22 drewc: I'll start with pcl and keep referring to gentle if I get stuck 03:05:36 I'm not a fanboi either, but I think Giga writes lisp with a Java accent. 03:06:13 I actually think you should read BOTH books. 03:06:14 caoliver: can you give an example? 03:06:27 Adamant: Clearly, before requiring tail call elimination, one should define when a call is in tail position. So, please, provide me with such a definition for common lisp. 03:06:37 Well... the overall flavor of his OO section. 03:06:44 drewc: (defpackage "COM.GIGAMONKEY..." ;) 03:07:04 pkhuong: heh, fair enough :) 03:07:09 caoliver: the OO section is meant to introduce CLOS to people more used to single dispatch, like in Java. 03:08:36 pkhuong: that would require me to actually look at CL again after transitioning to Scheme and Haskell 03:08:41 pkhuong: and boy, was it hard to get used to generic functions... 03:08:53 p_l: qua? 03:09:00 Adamant: So really, you haven't got a clue whether the designers "screwed up". 03:09:08 caoliver: that's a vague and useless criticism... if you don't have a specific example then i'm back to writing you off :P 03:09:18 Too bad. 03:09:33 pkhuong: they screwed up from the perspective of someone who likes TCO 03:09:36 Why is it HARD to get used to generic functions? 03:09:48 Adamant: no... they didn't disallow it did they? 03:09:48 persi [n=user@h-68-164-110-152.dnvtco56.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:56 drewc: but they didn't require it 03:10:05 SO you can't rely on it. 03:10:05 So? 03:10:24 so you can't depend on it unless you want to stay compiler specific 03:10:33 would you rather they have standardised a half-assed broken requirement with unclear semantics? 03:10:52 I would rather they gave us working TCO 03:11:13 Does SBCL and CCL reliably do the right (scheme) thing with tail calls? 03:11:20 Adamant: you do understand the point pkhuong was trying to make, don't you? 03:11:28 caoliver: the first one or two times I tried to get CLOS I was stupefied... then I had a bout with Haskell and I got it 03:11:50 caoliver: what is the right thing in the context of CL? 03:12:02 Quick question: Is there a way to set up a dynamic binding that the variable is decided at runtime? like (let ((#.*mysym*)) ...) but at run time, not read time? 03:12:10 drewc: my point is that CL does not have TCO, which IIRC is because it's predecessors did not do TCO 03:12:29 Adamant: Scheme is a predecessor of CL 03:12:30 p_l: what materials did you use to study CLOS? I started with Keene, and am in the process of bashing AMOP into my head, but that's slow going. 03:13:03 drewc: I believe the right thing is to borrow a page from Scheme. 03:13:16 caoliver: Oh, I know just enough to get by, so it's just a bit from what was in PCL and PAIP 03:13:26 drewc: I mean the Lisps that were drawn on for CL, which IIRC was MacLisp and Interlisp and ones along that line 03:13:27 caoliver: i beleive that the earth lives on the back of a giant turtle. 03:13:29 caoliver: I was tainted by PG's dislike for CLOS :P 03:13:38 Agree there. 03:13:49 Adamant: and scheme? 03:13:59 Adamant: (yes, scheme). 03:14:02 I mean my not being a PG fanboi was a result of his disdain for CLOS. 03:14:03 drewc: I thought Scheme was not drawn on very heavily 03:14:19 Adamant: lexical scope? 03:14:19 -!- GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@vpn3-145196.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:36 drewc: Scheme is lexical only 03:14:54 caoliver: funny thing, the one who turned me around was Kenny with his Cells... by the time I got what kind of jerk he is, I was too deep in CL to stop :P 03:15:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:38 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-115-69.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:52 bueller? 03:15:52 You must have missed the Naggum era. 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(Connection reset by peer)] 03:19:30 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 03:19:30 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest60646 03:20:22 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@66.192.188.156] has joined #lisp 03:20:25 Adamant: let me try another tack here... you say you want TCO in CL... can you define what that means? 03:21:36 drewc: I want my recursive calls in the tail position to be optimized at the stack frame level by default 03:22:09 Adamant: define 'tail position' in terms of CL semantics in all cases. 03:22:09 but I assume the argument is 03:22:28 so, that is the problem. 03:22:35 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:22:59 Does CL have a denotational semantics? 03:23:45 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:24:50 caoliver: no 03:25:58 That was my feeling, but it seems that stack frame replacement + goto would give Adamant what he wants. 03:26:07 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@168.105.232.71] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:26:30 It's more or less what I want too. 03:27:29 How would that sort of approach break CL? 03:27:49 why use a recursive function at all then? implement a DSL on top of TAGBODY , maybe like clojure's iteration constructs 03:28:27 (or like, say, CL's iteration constructs...) 03:28:37 It makes life a H--- of a lot less painful for people who routinely write both CL and Scheme to have TCO in both. 03:29:19 are you now arguing for LOOP in scheme? 03:29:26 NO! 03:29:41 so you see the problem with that line of reasoning? 03:29:43 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I shall have nightmares now! I hope you're happy. 03:29:52 loop in Scheme would be fine in my book, there are already similar to CL looping constructs written. 03:30:36 Adamant: oh, me too. then again, i like LOOP in general (though some of the specifics piss me right off). 03:31:35 Loop feels very COBOL to me. 03:31:41 I like to have the option for either. 03:32:37 caoliver: i haven 03:32:57 't done enough cobol to notice, but so what? 03:33:34 (does COBOL _really_ have an iteration construct as succinct and powerful as LOOP?) 03:34:05 Grammar. 03:35:02 I'd rather write (do (bind-incr-forms) (test) ... stuff). 03:35:13 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:23 ]actually, it apparently is closer to Algol, not cobol, even in syntax 03:35:24 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@dhcp-168-105-232-71.wireless.manoa.hawaii.edu] has joined #lisp 03:35:43 i though you rather write (LABELS ((LOOP (...)...)) (LOOP ....)) ;) 03:36:55 Actually, do my shame/horror, I found a (do ...) in some scheme hacking I did was easier to understand than the named let form it replaced. 03:37:04 s/do my/to my/ 03:37:45 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.166.147] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:37:47 note of course that emulating TCO within a single function is a simple macro, so what's really missing is mutually recursive functions having TCO... hoew often does this really come up? 03:38:07 i suppose a lot more for a schemer then for me... 03:38:18 Actually, I think SBCL and CCL does TCO for those. 03:38:44 i mean, i have parsers that mutually recurse a lot, but unbounded stack use it not really an issue there. 03:38:45 I've written more scheme than lisp I'll admit. 03:39:02 ah, the truth comes out! 03:39:31 If CL was more like scheme, what would we need scheme for? :P 03:39:34 But I miss little things. Actually I'm fond of that ever-so-fugly format. 03:39:38 -!- Guest60646 [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:39:52 Shamiq [n=Adium@165.124.97.61] has joined #lisp 03:39:52 Being smaller than CL. :P 03:40:20 caoliver: 03:40:40 insert? Gross! 03:40:55 ewww 03:41:04 Sorry. I'll try to avoid bargain basement humor in the future. 03:41:12 my fault, i started it 03:41:28 *caoliver* needs to brew some caffeine. 03:42:12 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:42:30 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:44:26 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:54:35 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-45-82-65-152-63.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 03:55:08 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 03:55:36 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@165.124.97.61] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:01:24 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@75.52.254.21] has joined #lisp 04:01:32 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:40 -!- ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:05:33 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.135.238] has joined #lisp 04:06:16 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@88.73.194.59] has joined #lisp 04:09:57 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:12 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.115] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:11:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/session] has joined #lisp 04:14:14 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.210.208] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:47 Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has joined #lisp 04:20:32 dnolen [n=dnolen@70.249.156.223] has joined #lisp 04:22:49 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:24:52 Grumble grumble erlang mumble wxwidgets pout moan grumble spit.... 04:25:02 ... ROTFL 04:26:08 I gather you've had to deal with that build oddity as well. 04:27:05 I suppose it's just as well I'm having late coffee, as I think I'm going to need that kick. 04:31:52 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.45.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 04:33:13 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:33:18 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@66.192.188.156] has quit [] 04:45:15 johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@74.71.8.202] has joined #lisp 04:45:37 hahaha guthur thinks java's GCs are better than lisp's 04:45:41 *rahul* falls over laughing 04:45:45 if only he knew 04:46:10 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:39 oof, enough reading scrollback 04:47:41 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:52:13 right! so i split my source file a bit to make it easier to read. i intended to use (load ...) to open each piece, where does SBCL get the relative path from? 04:54:05 Demosthenes: You want asdf. See . 04:54:12 i've made modules into asdf in the past. 04:54:21 rahul: well, I heard that G1GC is the first really new thing to happen since long time in GC world ;-) 04:54:31 i didn't want to go that route. this isn't a library, just a local split for legibility. 04:54:42 and asdf is such a pain... 04:54:48 -!- GrayGnome` is now known as GrayGonme 04:55:15 the only reason i ask here is google's search isn't being fruitful for "sbcl load path" and other variants 04:55:41 Demosthenes: just get a quick asdf system with serial dependencies, will work just like a bunch of load statements 04:56:26 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 04:56:36 lets focus on the question. if you use a relative path with (load), sbcl stores the current path where? 04:57:08 asdf means i have to go through naming hell, and make package headers, etc. real pita 04:57:49 Demosthenes: what? asdf and packages are orthogonal. 04:59:15 by current path you mean 04:59:39 he means *default-pathname-defaults*. 04:59:44 ohh 04:59:50 p_l: G1GC? 05:00:06 p_l: all I know is that the hotspot GC is one of the slowest I've ever seen 05:00:36 tada! that was it 05:00:51 Demosthenes: how can asdf be difficult 05:01:02 what do you do to add difficulty to something that is simple? 05:01:07 needs an extra file and typing 05:01:18 he just wanted to split the file 05:01:47 JAS415: he'll need an extra file to handle the split. 05:01:47 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 05:02:07 multiple extra files, definitions, package naming, emuerate export lists, spam on import at start time 05:02:13 what? 05:02:15 sykopomp pasted "correct cstruct declaration?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91076 05:02:18 Demosthenes: are you smoking crack? 05:02:25 Demosthenes: again, asdf and packages are orthogonal. 05:02:25 ^ ? 05:02:32 thats for an asdf package... 05:02:34 Demosthenes: or are you on acid? 05:02:40 worse, perl. 05:02:42 you're definitely seeing things that aren't there 05:02:45 yeah 05:02:51 you're confusing cpan with asdf 05:03:02 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:04 just write and asdf. it's simple and makes things simpler 05:03:30 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:31 idk when i do something small i just write a load file 05:03:41 *rahul* facepalm 05:03:57 I should go back to the bar. the people weren't acting as dumb there 05:04:22 then again i'm not sure i could install asdf on the lisp i have as its from 1985 05:04:45 can anyone yes/no on that paste? I'm getting memory faults and I'm trying to track down my crime :\ 05:05:41 *rahul* facepalms JAS415 05:05:54 JAS415: actually, asdf probably works fine on a lisp from 1985 05:05:58 lets see, for a simple asdf package i had to add a 15 line header, fix my naming, create a 17 line asd file, and symlink around stuff to ~/.sbcl... 05:06:07 eh, actually, they're probably not well-developed enough 05:06:12 what the hell? 05:06:18 sykopomp: shouldn't there be a :count 4 for data as well? 05:06:18 Demosthenes: you really are taking some crazy drugs 05:06:38 rahul: i followed the docs.. 05:06:39 I thought the musicians at the bar were on something, but you're more creative than they were, that's for sure 05:06:39 adeht: should there be? It's just a pointer, right? 05:06:41 Demosthenes: a header? All you have to do is execute a defsystem form to specify what files to load in what order. 05:06:45 and they say perl is ill documented 05:06:48 sykopomp: it's an array of 4 pointers 05:06:56 Demosthenes: perl documentation is ill 05:07:20 thats using defpackage. 05:07:20 adeht: ...well I'll be damned. 05:07:21 Demosthenes: you seem to be reading a book on how to make a C project or something 05:07:28 adeht: thank you. :) 05:07:30 Demosthenes: what does defpackage have to do with asdf? 05:07:51 Demosthenes: you might as well say you need to write python code in order to load your perl 05:08:19 rahul: do you have a better example? 05:08:26 Demosthenes: what example do you need? 05:08:26 if there's a simpler way, i'm all ears 05:08:32 just create a .asd file 05:08:45 that is it. put the files in there and declare a dependency if necessary. 05:09:22 you can look at any .asd file for a simple project as an example 05:09:35 formulate's .asd is simple enough. 05:09:42 my package looks like i used the nomenclature for naming from the PCL 05:09:54 huh? 05:09:59 -!- rme [rme@clozure-9D931A0E.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:09:59 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-115-69.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:10:05 Demosthenes: where is this random comment from? 05:10:16 and what does it refer to? 05:10:18 JAS415 pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91078 05:10:59 the whole defpacakge thing. 05:10:59 i get defsystem, if an asd can operate with that only its news to me 05:10:59 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:11:03 thats an asdf example i just pulled from alexandria 05:11:14 it appears i modelled my package after one in PCL 05:11:17 you can just describe it by filename 05:11:37 all it does is determine load order 05:11:45 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-C2F2E195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 05:11:57 Demosthenes: what does package have to do with this? 05:12:06 we are talking about _ASDF_. NOT systems 05:12:08 rahul: my impression that asdf required packaging. 05:12:11 er not packages 05:12:15 Demosthenes: packagING 05:12:23 ASDF _is_ packagING 05:12:32 but it's not packages FOR SYMBOLS 05:12:32 i dont get it 05:12:38 i'm gonna go back to my crack 05:12:50 thats ok, i fixed the load issue. ;] 05:12:53 JAS415: you better catch up to Demosthenes. at least then someone might understand him 05:13:03 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 05:13:08 ;) 05:13:23 glad its fixed anyhow 05:13:37 rahul: in which version of Java? Anyway, there is some substantial work on new GC done, G1GC, which is a copying generational GC with very short first generation 05:14:03 rahul: also, it allocates memory differently from previous GC 05:14:59 p_l: the whole train wreck 05:15:20 where they basically had a really complex emulation of mark and sweep with a really small first generation 05:15:35 I guess it was kind of a 2.5 generational collector 05:15:36 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:15:48 where you want AT LEAST 4 generations to get decent performance on long-lived applications 05:15:51 rahul: no, not the Concurrent Mark-Sweep from Hotspot 05:16:01 right 05:16:06 that's what is a disaster 05:16:32 they might as well have used a two-space copying GC. 05:17:21 the new one allocates data in small "boxes", currently around 1~4MB in size, iirc 05:18:51 per-thread nurseries? 05:19:10 included 05:19:36 right, are those boxes per-thread nurseries? 05:19:51 because those boxes sound a lot like train cars if they're not 05:20:09 rahul: I don't know in detail, I'm sure searching for Java G1 GC should give you more details 05:22:28 it sounds like my GC idea on the surface 05:22:40 I wonder if it goes as deep as what I envisioned 05:23:50 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:24:36 Good morning! 05:25:26 -!- rrice [n=rrice@76.253.142.92] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:31:54 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@dhcp-168-105-232-71.wireless.manoa.hawaii.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:32:23 beach: morning! 05:34:12 morning beach 05:36:47 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122.57.23.209] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:36:59 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 05:37:12 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:30 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@24.4.39.224] has quit [] 05:42:01 The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@168.105.232.71] has joined #lisp 05:43:49 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:49:53 gigamonkey [n=user@99.39.4.196] has joined #lisp 05:50:17 sellout: how's it going? 05:50:58 ksp11 [n=ksp11@g225082078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:53:26 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.29.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:54:09 thom_logn [n=thom@173.67.109.95] has joined #lisp 05:55:15 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:57:12 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95.24.119.224] has joined #lisp 05:59:03 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.51.222] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:01:23 gonzojive_ [n=red@128.12.249.103] has joined #lisp 06:03:51 redblue [i=star@207.253.108.124] has joined #lisp 06:08:33 Vonunov [n=jack@99.58.1.192] has joined #lisp 06:09:37 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 06:11:52 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:12:23 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:12:43 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@70.249.156.223] has quit [] 06:13:12 JAS415: so i'm trying your asdf method 06:13:17 rather, defsystem 06:13:26 that needs to go in an asd file, no problem 06:13:38 can it reside in my project directory instead of ~/.sbcl/* 06:15:33 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:38 good evening 06:18:33 hello ahaas 06:18:43 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has joined #lisp 06:19:47 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:20:05 splittist [n=David@156-220.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:20:07 morning 06:20:13 hello splittist 06:21:40 Hi beach. I was wondering if anyone could suggest a good sorting algorithm that would be amenable to parallel sorting of lists? 06:22:16 I was researching Quicksort and I came across a post that suggested that it's undesirable to use Quicksort on lists. 06:23:02 parallel? 06:23:05 you mean concurrent? 06:23:30 ahaas: It works OK. Just split the list into < = and > elements, then sort the < and > separately, finally merge. 06:23:35 anything that's divide and conquer should be able to be distributable 06:23:41 I don't know what I mean. I just got my first multicore system and I wanted to revise a genetic algorithm to take advantage of it. 06:23:58 ahaas: how many elements are you sorting? 06:24:05 500 - 1000 06:24:09 heh 06:24:18 how long do you think it takes to sort that? 06:24:24 ahaas: probably not worth it. 06:24:27 and how much time does everything else take? 06:24:43 ahaas: just use the built in sort. 06:25:15 Well, while sorting, it also has to run the fitness function, which is the biggest draw, so I thought that would be the best time to go ahead and split things up. 06:25:33 That might've been a poor assumption. 06:26:32 But, ok, now I think I can forget about rewriting sort and just run the fitness function over the items concurrently. 06:26:46 (which should be much simpler) 06:26:59 Perhaps a time to use the Schwartzian Transform. 06:27:22 I hope that has something to do with Spaceballs. 06:27:25 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:27:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwartzian_transform 06:27:44 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 prxq [n=mommer@f051006192.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 Guest94084 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 stattrav [n=stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 lupine_85 [n=quassel@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-8-239.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-236-91.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 esden [n=esdentem@repl.esden.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 lispnik [n=user@adsl-75-34-100-254.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 Orest^bnc [n=Orest@81.169.174.192] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 koning_r1bot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 tufflax [n=tufflax@1-1-8-11a.ang.sth.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 06:28:18 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 06:28:18 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 06:28:18 Draggor [n=Draggor@216.80.120.145] has joined #lisp 06:28:18 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:28:18 tvaalen [n=tvaal@209.9.227.203] has joined #lisp 06:28:38 gigamonkey: I went to get your new book at Powell's books a few weeks ago, but I was too early. I hope to return in the next week. 06:31:49 gigamonkey: I use memoization. It just happens that the first call to the fitness function usually occurs within a call to sort. 06:32:43 But, I'm definitely seeing now that writing a sort routine for this purpose is a waste of energy. 06:32:58 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:33:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:41 ahaas: Cool. Some day I'll have to make a trip up and check out Powell's. 06:38:05 yeah, just spawn 5 threads and split up the population into 5 groups 06:42:12 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:45:35 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:52:52 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:59 Thanks, guys. I'm looking forward to having more Lisp time over the next couple months. 06:53:21 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.39.4.196] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:56:22 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@75.52.254.21] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:44 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:59:29 *laugh* ok, i got an asd to work after a half hour of fighting and opening the asdf source. :P really fast. 07:02:25 Demosthenes: sounds like a personal problem to me 07:02:47 everyone else does it in about 15 minutes the first time, and about 1 minute after getting used to it 07:03:23 and that 15 minutes is mostly spent figuring out the syntax for defsystem 07:03:46 and NOT in wasting time arging about defpackage and if it's necessary for defsystem 07:05:14 the BP's for asdf even recommend defpackage :P 07:07:43 Demosthenes: really, you're not helping your own cause by attempting to conflate ASDF and DEFPACKAGE.. not matter what you say you're still not going to be right about them being anything but coincidentally related. 07:08:08 oh i can't dispute that 07:08:16 just never simple 07:08:23 brb, laptop batt dying 07:08:26 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.45.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 07:08:49 sigh 07:09:12 make is SO much better. 07:09:22 (good morning) 07:09:26 heh 07:10:01 if he read the docs for make, he'd probably start whinging about how it's telling him how he should or should not organize his header files 07:10:17 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 07:10:24 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:10:28 this whole calling ASDF "make for lisp" doesn't make sense to me... i use both ASDF and make for my systems.... 07:10:36 tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.146] has joined #lisp 07:10:38 :D 07:11:00 not even xcvb will be a asdf/make replacement. 07:11:01 oh , the problem was a generic "cannot find package" error, caused by case sensitivity. 07:11:28 Demosthenes: STOP SCREWING AROUND WITH PACKAGES 07:11:39 Demosthenes: if you want to make a system MAKE JUST A SYSTEM 07:11:52 yes, it's NICE to have a package, but that's ORTHOGONAL to DEFSYSTEMS 07:12:03 ANY documentation will suggest having BOTH 07:12:14 case sensitivity? 07:12:28 rahul: we're mincing terms. the name given to asdf:load-op... 07:12:33 system/package, wtf ever :P 07:12:36 prxq: I don't think I even want to know what kind of crackheadedness he's gotten into now 07:12:42 you need less caffienne in your diet 07:12:53 Demosthenes: for years :-) 07:12:53 -!- ksp11 [n=ksp11@g225082078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:12:56 Demosthenes: you're the one who is ingesting crack in epic proportions... 07:12:56 you're right, i didn't make a package (ala defpackage) 07:13:00 Demosthenes, here you go, http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 07:13:07 oh my 07:13:08 Demosthenes: if you don't know the difference between a system and a package, please RTFM and stop the noise! 07:13:12 Demosthenes, "system/package, wtf ever :P" shows you need to read that. 07:13:14 please don't take erann's advice on packages 07:13:34 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:13:35 rahul, I found it very enlightening for understing what a package /is/, though. 07:14:11 tic: I guess, yeah 07:14:17 I wrote a poem about it 07:14:28 actually, it was a translation of a Fight Club scene 07:14:34 I can't remember any advice in the text, really. So I guess that was secondary to me. Anyway. 07:14:37 Demosthenes: to put it simply, if you don't start a new project with a DEFPACKAGE, you're probably doing it wrong. DEFSYSTEM can wait until you need more than one file, then it's a must. 07:15:08 drewc: in this case, i do get system/package, but obviously i'm not clear about it in describing it. 07:15:33 if you can't tell which is which when you talk about it, how the HELL do you think you understand either one? 07:15:33 Demosthenes, system and package are /not/ interchangeable. stop writing "system/package" 07:15:36 and i got chewed on because the examples i used to build prior asdf loadable items used both defpackage and defsystem 07:15:48 Demosthenes: you wanted JUST a defsystem 07:15:54 so JUST create a defsystem 07:16:02 i consider myself enlightened that i can use defsystem by itself for splits, and use dependencies. 07:16:06 i did. 07:16:09 and stop BICHING and MOANING about how you need a package to make a system 07:16:22 that's not enlightenment. that's rtfm 07:16:47 understanding the difference and why there's a difference is a slight form of enlightenment 07:16:55 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:17:22 Demosthenes: the ability to use the correct terminology is usually a sign of 'getting it'... you don't, so i have to assume you don't. You've been given some links, you should follow them! 07:17:49 you would probably have less trouble with dealing with variables if you understood packages... not directly because of packages, but because of what you learn about symbols in the process 07:18:01 (and regardless about what rahul says about not needing defpackage, it would be pretty odd to have a toplevel asdf system that does not contain at last one package definition) 07:18:30 drewc: yes, it is strange, but it's not needed immediately for him 07:18:46 this is his first attempt at writing lisp after all 07:18:50 one piece at a time. 07:18:55 rahul: organising code into packages is, imo, a far more important practice than creating an ASDF system. 07:19:05 drewc: yes, I agree. 07:19:16 but he's trying to do both at once, and getting confused as to which is which 07:19:25 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:19:51 and his immediate goal is to have two separate files of source code 07:19:57 funny. lisp makes creating code for difficult things easy, but anything regarding trivial items is difficult. i feel like i'm back in DCL. 07:19:57 i have files that start with a #.(map nil 'require '(:foo :bar :baz)) and go right into defpackage :) 07:20:10 Demosthenes: adsf and packages are TRIVIAL 07:20:15 Demosthenes: you are making trivial things difficult by being obtuse 07:20:34 Demosthenes: the fact that you have no clue what is going on indicates that you are UNWILLING to learn what the two things ARE 07:20:53 given that i had a correct asd def and files configured and it took that extra time to isolate a file case issue, i'd say that was stumlbing over something trivial 07:20:55 Actually I think he's kind of right 07:21:13 i reused the definition from JAS415 and jumped right in. 07:21:24 tcr: asdf is more difficult than autoconf? 07:21:32 *shiver* 07:21:36 Uhm they're different things? 07:21:36 autoconf. :-( 07:21:38 Demosthenes: you don't understand case sensitivity? 07:21:45 Also I don't think he's comparing to C. :-) 07:21:51 the error messages from asdf weren't helpful, and i had to open teh contrib code in sbcl to find sysdef-search-registry and repl it until i found the case problem. 07:22:01 he's comparing to his crack pipe 07:22:08 drewc: i get bitten by it on occasion obviously 07:22:10 his crack pipe is simpler to use 07:22:17 i hadn't expected it to be an issue with an import. 07:22:39 huh? 07:22:43 what do you mean import? 07:22:50 There's no concept of "import" in CL, Demosthenes 07:22:51 and what does that have to do with asdf? 07:22:56 the case issues in lisp definately feel like a step backward to me, but i'm a native perlite :P 07:22:59 tcr: there is, for symbols into packages 07:23:03 Well there's require. :-) 07:23:07 yes, i'm guilty of perl. there you have it. 07:23:10 tcr: what rahul said! 07:23:13 tcr: which is confusing me even more 07:23:24 tcr: but that may be a sign of his confusion... 07:23:32 Demosthenes: what case issues? 07:23:35 Demosthenes: Oh... you poor thing. 07:23:50 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:50 Demosthenes: all symbols are upcased. there are no issues. 07:24:00 rahul: the asd file and sources are in CamelCase. 07:24:04 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:08 any issues are created because you're going around creating problems 07:24:09 "import" in other languages usually conflate module and file dependencies because they're so similiar 07:24:14 -!- jawhite [n=jolyonwh@203.143.170.201] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 07:24:16 Demosthenes: wrong 07:24:16 symbols are upcased, i had to quote the load-op and the defsystem *shrug* 07:24:33 Demosthenes: what system are you using? 07:24:42 prxq: sbcl on linux 07:24:51 w/ emacs & slime 07:25:03 Demosthenes: the file names in your .asd file should be the same ones as you have on disk 07:25:05 Demosthenes: no idea how you manage to get into problems with that setup. 07:25:07 I mean DUH 07:25:17 Demosthenes: don't use CamelCase, for one. 07:25:21 rahul: they are. 07:25:24 filenames should be quoted 07:25:26 Demosthenes: if you open a file called "foo" in perl, and there's a file called "Foo" on the disk, what happens? 07:25:29 drewc: well, in every other language thats a perk., 07:25:36 Demosthenes: just read http://weitz.de/packages.html .. no one mentioned that link before? 07:25:45 Demosthenes, but not in Lisp. In Lisp, you write Lisp, unlike other languages where you write Fortran. 07:25:47 Demosthenes: smoking crack is a perk 07:26:01 Demosthenes: If you want to use another language, use it... otherwise shut up about what you expect lisp to do because perl does it. 07:26:05 Demosthenes, stick to the conventions used in Lisp and your life will be much easier. One of them is variable naming. 07:26:18 Meh. Troll? 07:26:23 Demosthenes: tell me what happens when you try to open a file called "foo" by doing open("Foo") in perl 07:26:37 Demosthenes: does perl make that "easy"? 07:26:37 adeht: good link, thanks. 07:27:21 Every morning I come here I realize how crazy #lisp actually is :-) later in the day, I'm grumpy enough myself 07:28:07 Demosthenes: you still haven't answered my question. how does perl not have case problems when you specify a filename with the wrong case? 07:28:09 tcr: heh, it's funny, i have recently made that same observation myself :) 07:28:43 rahul: here it was simply that i had to quote it differently in the loadop and defsystem. 07:29:04 Demosthenes: that makes no sense at all 07:29:10 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:29:20 :MyLib and "MyLib" resolve differently 07:29:35 Demosthenes: are you saying your file name does not correspond to your system name? 07:29:41 Demosthenes: right. They are different. 07:29:44 Demosthenes: Yeah, and the interesting tidbit is that it resolves to "mylib" and not "MYLIB"! 07:29:45 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:47 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :MyLib) for a MyLib.asd w/ (defsystem :MyLib...) failed. 07:29:52 Demosthenes: have you ever put a perl module called MyLib into a file called mylib.perl? 07:30:12 it was looking for mylib.asd 07:30:22 rahul: C'm on, shut up. He was bitten by some normalization that ASDF does. 07:30:26 being unaware of the best practice to not use camel case, i got bit. 07:30:39 Demosthenes: well, where in the standard do you see camel case? 07:30:47 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:30:54 so i swapped quotes. big deal. you didn't have to hold hand through reverse engineering asdf's load-op to find it. 07:30:57 rahul: That's extremely thing ice. 07:30:58 in java, you see camel case in the standard library, so you use that in your code 07:31:00 thin 07:31:24 rahul: ASDF normalizes symbols to their lowercase symbol-name which is not what the standard reader does to symbols. 07:31:42 Demosthenes: you are aware that :mylib, :Mylib, :MYLIB, :MYlib etc are all read as the same symbol under normal reader settings... right? 07:31:42 tcr: well, that's because that's what the on-disk convention is 07:31:43 i asked here because i needed to split code, and my prior attempts at asdf had been time consuming, i took everyone's word that asd should be simpler. it turned out to be eventually. 07:32:00 rahul: It makes trying to arguing by the authory of the standard pretty weak 07:32:03 which means you're right, it was a good way to go. i had difficulty because i got bit by a case issue, my own stupidity to be sure. 07:32:13 tcr: who said authority? 07:32:19 tcr: this is about conventions. 07:32:27 Demosthenes: maybe you had bad luck. Or maybe one shouldn't start with the assumption that something got royally screwed in the internals. 07:32:53 prxq: his assumption was that everything that should be simple in lisp must be messed up, actually 07:32:53 Demosthenes: normally, in CL, stuff just works. When it does not, it has an easy solution :-) 07:33:05 Demosthenes: have you seen http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html ? 07:33:24 rahul: that might come from years using other languages where that assumption holds 07:33:50 -!- Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:33:58 drewc: yep, and http://common-lisp.net/~mmommer/asdf-howto.shtml, the PCL, http://www.cliki.net/ASDF%20System. all seemed to intertwince defpackage and defsystem. 07:34:22 prxq: i agree that my expectations can munge between languages. 07:34:24 If Lisp symbols were case-sensitive (and arguably that it isn't is mostly an artifact of historical baggage) he would not have had any problem 07:34:38 ASau [n=user@host31-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:34:43 prxq: no, he said that those things are simple in other languages 07:34:57 So he was bitten by a common newby caveat. I suggest to move on. 07:34:58 which means that he thinks that make is somehow simple, I guess 07:35:00 Demosthenes: your reading comprehesion probably needs a little work... s-l-o-w--d-o-w-n :D 07:35:13 incf tcr 07:35:38 tcr: i think thats the first reasonable response i heard. 07:35:41 Demosthenes: also, the ASDF manual is a good place to look : http://constantly.at/lisp/asdf 07:35:44 Demosthenes: when on earth do any of those references do that? 07:35:55 i only put up with the flames because rahul's right, defsystem was the way to go 07:36:10 Demosthenes: No you heard a lot of reasonable responsen though the reason was sucked up by noise :-) 07:36:18 tcr: likely 07:36:19 heh "responsen" 07:36:24 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051006192.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:36:33 nice little germanism 07:36:36 Demosthenes: "This document describes the standard used by cirCLe which asdf systems should comply with for a more consistent end-user experience" 07:36:42 good god 07:36:46 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:36:49 this is a convention for a long-defunct project 07:37:15 prxq [n=mommer@f051006192.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:37:41 Demosthenes: There's another #lisp caveat: rahul is a machine that transliterates coffee into arguments :-) 07:37:50 "translates" probably 07:37:52 tcr: I don't drink coffee 07:38:06 I haven't had a cup of coffee in a few weeks now 07:38:07 rahul: what a rebuke :-) 07:38:21 Demosthenes: both of those web pages are at least a few years out of date 07:38:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:25 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:40 Demosthenes: you assumed that those two random pages were the official ASDF documentation? 07:38:40 Demosthenes: I think i see the source of your confusions... it's common practice to put your asdf DEFSYSTEM forms in a private package so as to avoid polluting whatever package ASDF happens to load the DEFSYSTEM form into. 07:39:10 drewc: which stopped being needed after about a year into ASDF's existence 07:40:10 which would be roughly around 2001 or 2002, IIRC 07:40:13 rahul: define 'needed'... i still do so, most of the tutorials recommend it, and it's good practice IMO, especially if you're like me and often LOAD .asd's 07:41:04 drewc: hmm. I don't have any symbols that get interned into the current package in my .asds 07:41:22 drewc: which is why creating a "full" system w/ package was a pita i sought to avoid. i was encouraged to use defsystem independently, which worked. 07:41:27 everything is either a keyword or uninterned 07:41:34 unless it's a symbol from asdf itself 07:41:48 rahul: it's also good practice whenever you extend asdf with new source types etc. 07:42:16 Demosthenes: still sounds like you're confused... and really, in the time you've been here i could have written a couple hundred DEFPACKAGE's... so i don't see the issue. 07:43:15 Demosthenes: and, as i've mentioned... if you're at the point where you need a .asd and you don't yet have a package defined, you're doing something wrong (or writing functions for use in format strings) 07:43:33 prxq: I usually define those as separate libraries in the first place 07:44:00 heh it's all about ~/ 07:44:14 drewc: Personally, I don't like having foo-system show up in completion, so I write my .asd files relatively to :cl-user and explicitly qualify symbols from ASDF. (Even if I have to define new source types) 07:44:24 drewc: my program reached a point where i wanted to split it for clarity, i'm certain eventually i'd make one or more packages for what it contains, but for now i didn't want the additional baggage. 07:44:44 i'm well aware i'm polluting the :cl-user package 07:44:50 "In the simplest case you have a directory with a few files. And the absolutely simplest case is when the dependency of your files is linear. That is, you can make a list of the files such that the first one should be loaded first, the second second, etc." 07:44:55 NO NO NO 07:45:01 blank is not :serial t 07:45:16 mmommer's tutorial is not very good at all... 07:45:52 tcr: I have only one package for systems (coop.tech.systems) in which they all live... i conditionalize the defpackage in the .asds like. 07:45:58 Demosthenes: The first thing that you do when you write new code, is to write (defpackage :my-frob (:use :cl)) (in-package :my-frob) 07:46:22 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-39-232.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:46:35 rahul: there is :serial t in the example where that quote is from 07:46:50 tcr: which i've done in other programs (or what i consider libraries). 07:46:56 drewc: Guess that makes sense, too 07:47:09 Demosthenes: In Lisp, you have to do it all the time :-) 07:47:11 tcr: this is something thats growing fast while i prototype... i hadnt' considered it yet, though i'm sure i ought to eventually 07:47:12 tcr: i would also suggest using CL:DEFPACKAGE and CL:IN-PACKAGE (that is, package qualify them)... only because i often forget to :use :cl :) 07:47:17 prxq: ah, the : looked like a ; to me so I ignored that line... 07:47:40 Demosthenes: a single lisp environment can contain more than one application, too 07:47:53 rahul: i'm well aware. 07:48:03 drewc: have you seen the new slime-query-replace-system yet? (I should really blog about it!) 07:48:10 so you can't assume that all applications can live in cl-user 07:48:18 right now i'm single threaded, and see the "pollutting" comment. i know i'm not playing well with others atm 07:48:36 yep, thats right. 07:49:00 tcr: no.. my sbcl and slime are so old i still don't have the cool new edit uses stuff... i heard you mention it here though, but didn't catch what it does.... so what does it do? 07:49:12 rahul: any criticisms are wellcome, though. The package/system issue requires clarification, it seems. 07:49:15 drewc: run query-replace on all files belonging to a system 07:49:16 i'm assuming i'm prototyping in a dedicated interpreter currently. when i share, i'll have to define a package and play nice 07:49:27 drewc: poor man's refactoring tool 07:49:28 tcr: oooh! i need that! 07:50:19 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@128.12.249.103] has quit [] 07:50:20 Demosthenes: it has not so much to do with playing nice as it does writing nice code... anything more than a single function, and i make a package for it. 07:50:47 drewc: I suggest also to build an sbcl cvs checkout because it's in freeze and Testing Is Needed 07:50:55 drewc: i agree. i'm not sure where to draw those lines yet as this develops, its premature from my viewpoint to do that now 07:51:22 Demosthenes: is it in a file? use a package. <---- new rule of thumb 07:51:57 prxq: well, somehow Demosthenes inferred that he needed to put his application in a package to create a system 07:52:07 although I see nothing that tells him that 07:52:09 tcr: ok, i'll update my world now, as i want that feature and also like helping SBCL :) 07:52:12 I think it was just his crack speaking 07:52:22 drewc: dutifully appended to my LispNotes.org 07:52:29 good morning 07:52:35 drewc: (the new sbcl also comes with who-specializes) 07:52:57 drewc: Make sure to also try M-? (slime-edit-uses) 07:53:15 is it in more than one file? use a system. 07:53:24 Demosthenes: another good reason for putting stuff in your own package is that cl-user by default can use implementation-defined packages, so it's a bit more risky, you can accidentally redefine functions/variables that you weren't aware were already defined 07:53:24 drewc: ah and you'll love the improved autodoc code 07:53:39 tcr: yeah, i've been exited about slime-edit-uses. who-specializes is also exiting! 07:53:55 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-72-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Success] 07:53:55 drewc: slime-edit-uses nicely subsumes who-specializes :) 07:53:58 adeht: you're preaching to the choir ;] 07:54:31 tcr: slime-edit-uses sounds like it subsumes almost everything :) 07:54:47 all who-foo functions 07:55:41 drewc: there's also slime-rgrep-system, and slime-isearch-system (the latter requires Emacs >23.1) 07:56:12 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:57:18 "GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1" w00t! 07:57:48 wow... 52 patches to clbuild... i'm like 6 months behind here! 07:58:39 heh ... closer to nine months... i wonder what's going to break in some time consuming manner. 07:58:51 Are bets accepted? 07:59:14 Do you use swank.asd? 07:59:28 yup, a whole bunch. 07:59:44 and a core with slime? You may be bitten then. 08:00:07 Though I have no idea why :-) I suggest to restart emacs after update, and to remove ~/.slime/ 08:00:24 i usually have to do that anyway :) 08:00:33 or wherever you put your swank fasls 08:01:57 every one in a while i miss darcs, until i actually have to use it again, and then it's like 'oh yeah, 99% CPU and hanging' 08:02:21 08:02:42 ska` [n=user@203.146.146.169] has joined #lisp 08:03:27 HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 08:03:53 drewc, tcr: this is one thing that breaks swank: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/444427 (read comments reverse) 08:05:11 drewc, do you get that with hashed repos? i've heard they fixed it in the new repo format, but i seem to see this with heavy amounts of conflicts... 08:05:58 drewc, a hint: try to pull patches in small chunks, because if there's a conflict and you pull loads of patches over it, then darcs tries hard looking for a resolution in one of the later patches 08:06:42 attila_lendvai: i have no idea if i get this in newer repos, or even how to tell... i've moved mostly to git :) 08:06:56 attila_lendvai: that's a good idea that... i'll keep it in mind 08:08:24 i regularly use the unordered nature of darcs patches, i miss it a lot in git (i know it's doable, just a headache) 08:08:37 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:09:21 hi again. Yesterday I complained about a bug in zip library. I updated to last cvs version since then, but the problem still there. I've made a bit of testing and found that some zip-entries have equal :SIZE and :COMPRESSED-SIZE. And zipfile-entry-contents fails processing them. Can someone please advise me what to do further? 08:09:22 attila_lendvai: Isn't log-output only used if you use *log-events*? 08:09:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/91080 08:10:24 akamaus: Perhaps it's time to take the issues to the author of that library? Best with easily reproducible test cases, of course. 08:10:37 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:11:17 tcr, i have no idea. i don't (deliberately) use *log-events*... 08:11:48 ok, while we're discussing packages, i've gone and added one to throw all my functions and object definitions into and integrated it into the system definition. 08:11:53 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:13:08 i guess while i'm prototyping i can leave the repl in-package on my package instead of maintaining the export list to prevent warnings? 08:13:16 Demosthenes: you put the defpackage form in a file called "package.lisp", and make that the first file in your dependency graph, and make all others files depend on it 08:13:27 Demosthenes: of course! 08:13:35 Demosthenes: exporting symbols comes very last 08:13:47 automation'd be nice there ;] 08:13:59 but i'll settle for last. 08:14:00 what would it automate? 08:14:08 Demosthenes: You can use C-c x to export a symbol in Slime, and have the symbol automatically be inserted in your defpackage form 08:14:15 Demosthenes: (if you use the "package.lisp" convention) 08:14:18 checking i wasn't breaking another convention running in-package for the duration 08:14:23 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:14:38 tcr: really? i wasn't aware of that one. 08:14:55 Demosthenes: You have to use the slime-package-fu contrib (which is included by the slime-fancy meta contrib) 08:15:04 Demosthenes: You can use C-u C-c x to unexport it again 08:15:05 Demosthenes: anything that you want to be automated can be automated 08:15:12 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.113.32] has joined #lisp 08:15:14 Demosthenes: that's what computers are HERE FOR 08:15:30 Anything, eh? 08:16:22 *attila_lendvai* prefers other kind of automation: (def (function e) foo ...), and inspects loaded packages if needs to see their detailed state 08:16:23 we spend our lives automating other peoples' lives for them, and yet the average programmer never automates his own job 08:16:53 attila_lendvai: I dunno... making it too easy to dynamically change your API isn't that good of a thing, to me 08:17:08 rahul: i'll all for automation. 08:17:28 thats why lisp was appealing, you can automate further 08:17:31 attila_lendvai: and asking to export the function is misleading to someone who is not well-versed in lisp 08:17:32 rahul, dynamically? it just makes it easy... exactly what you said above 08:17:45 so then, is there an "automated" with-slots ? ;] 08:17:46 attila_lendvai: no, it makes it dynamic 08:17:53 rahul, everything in CL is misleading to someone who has no clue... 08:17:54 tcr: i wrote down that shortcut, thanks ;] 08:17:56 Demosthenes: what would one automate? 08:18:06 attila_lendvai: well, sure... 08:18:19 rahul: oh, instead of manually maintaining a list of slots from the object, just grab'em all 08:18:36 ie: with-all-slots self body 08:18:43 attila_lendvai: but the structure of your export is associated with the definitions, not the symbols, and things that happen during loading could change the exported interface 08:18:45 the whole business with packages is a lame solution to an accidental problem caused by storing a graph in flat text 08:18:51 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75576d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:56 attila_lendvai: e.g. if there's a #+ before some form 08:19:04 um 08:19:15 attila_lendvai: not at all. it's a feature of how language works. 08:19:23 Demosthenes: "all"? 08:19:33 rahul, ...from your point of view. not from mine. 08:19:47 Demosthenes: how many functions do you write that use EVERYTHING that is inside of an object? 08:19:54 rahul: you define an object with 5 slots. in a method you then often use (with-slots (slot1 slot2 ... slot5) object body) 08:19:59 Demosthenes: a lot of the slots are things you've never heard of 08:20:10 Demosthenes: there are at least 5 more slots in that object 08:20:11 ok, so class-direct-slots 08:20:14 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:20:16 if there was a sufficiently smart graph editor, i'd be happy living without packages... 08:20:32 rahul: automation! why should i have to specify if i just want all the slots i added? 08:20:35 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:35 Demosthenes: well, that doesn't make too much sense... what class? 08:20:47 Patzy [n=somethin@88.174.11.170] has joined #lisp 08:20:58 Demosthenes: how does the computer know what code you wrote and what code someone else wrote? 08:21:05 (sb-mop:class-direct-slots (find-class (type-of self))) 08:21:41 prxq_ [n=mommer@92.227.85.248] has joined #lisp 08:21:43 attila_lendvai: you're saying you'd rather have a language that was .... "pictographic" in a way? 08:22:00 i'm all for reducing redundant code and automation, thats a pet peeve of mine, specifying all the slots in an obj. 08:22:02 attila_lendvai: in that things don't have symbolic names, but just point to other things without names? 08:22:05 Demosthenes: Because the reader of your code may not be as intimately familiar with your class as you are 08:22:09 -!- stattrav [n=stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:22:16 Demosthenes: that's insane 08:22:32 rahul: so there's a threshold to how much automation you should have? 08:22:47 Demosthenes: why should the specific way you split up mixins affect the variables visible in your methods? 08:23:02 Demosthenes: no, that's not automation, that's just smashing things randomly 08:23:09 rahul, i say that it's silly storing a graph in flat text and most problems packages solve simply don't exist with a graph representation. i was working for intentsoft, iirc they have some demo material on this online... 08:23:25 rahul: why should i maintain a list of slots in multiple locations instead of just maintaining the object definition once? 08:23:51 attila_lendvai: From the solutions I have seen, graph editors don't scale well 08:24:42 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06fdad.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:46 good morning 08:25:58 Demosthenes: why are you manipuilating slots everywhere? 08:26:08 Demosthenes: ever heard of inheritence? 08:26:09 Demosthenes: slots are an implementation detail. 08:26:12 Also graph representation take up more space I'd guess, and you need a holistic view on it, while with text you can scan through linearly in most cases 08:26:25 inheritance even! 08:26:37 *drewc* is getting tired 08:27:00 Demosthenes: your automation would do nothing for half of the classes in defdoc 08:27:01 -!- mutew [n=mutew@128.220.251.38] has left #lisp 08:27:01 Demosthenes: and there is no such thing as a class of a variable. 08:27:06 rahul,drewc: of course i'm using inheritance. but each method starts with the same refrain, with-slots (all slots) object 08:27:16 Demosthenes: so basically, your macro would never do anything 08:27:22 Demosthenes: then you're doing it wrong! 08:27:25 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051006192.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:28:01 init/parse/print all have to have access to all slots... 08:28:03 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 08:28:11 4 times i have to maintain a list of slots 08:28:13 Demosthenes: you should be abstracting away details like 'slots' behind functional interfaces and protocols. 08:28:22 Demosthenes: ever heard of defmacro? 08:28:22 unless i want to move to hash based storage instead of slots 08:28:22 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 08:28:53 drewc: yep. thats why i was asking rahul about automating the with-slots... 08:28:58 my initial macro bombed. 08:28:58 now you're not making any sense at all.. how are you planning on accessing the hash table? 08:29:09 i figured i was reinventing the wheel and someone else had done it before 08:29:13 Demosthenes: automating with-slots is the wrong thing to do. 08:29:48 drewc: so you'd rather automate the defmethod via defmacro to only manage 1 set of slots... 08:29:52 that works. 08:30:05 Demosthenes: no ... i'd rather use accessors... 08:30:06 but i'm still of the opinion i should be able to just use them all ;] 08:30:30 i think thats another debate, with-slots vs accessors 08:30:43 Demosthenes: you understand how lexical scope and compilation work, right? 08:30:48 (defclass horizontal-rule (horizontal-element rule-mixin) ((height))) 08:30:55 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:30:56 your macro would be crap with that class 08:31:21 and you have completely misunderstood lisp if you think that the class has ANY relationship to with-slots 08:31:36 you cannot determine what class you're dealing with 08:31:45 Demosthenes: you can write with-slots-for-object-of-class, use it for a while, and then decide that it's a bad idea 08:32:24 drewc: the compilation phase was the issue with making a macro there, it was outside my current experience. 08:32:39 adeht: yep 08:32:41 introducing all kinds of names isn't the only problem.. classes get redefined 08:32:57 Demosthenes: what adeht said... it's trivial to define a macro that does defclass + with-slots-for- ... do that for a while and you'll realize that you're doing it wrong. 08:32:57 Demosthenes: I'm sorry, but I seem to have stumbled in in the middle of the discussion. How do you want to write your code? 08:33:44 serichsen: like it was perl ;) 08:33:59 no, not even people who use perl would do that 08:34:00 $1 refers to the first slot? 08:34:05 heh 08:34:13 ok maybe :P 08:34:39 pavellidiq [i=c28d2f82@gateway/web/freenode/session] has joined #lisp 08:34:41 tcr: it's been long enough since i've touched perl that i don't even know if you're kidding! 08:34:49 rahul says automation is good, i pull up an example where redundancy is an issue but methods are a problem due to compile vs runtime. 08:35:06 Demosthenes: automation is good 08:35:15 throwing crap all over your code is not 08:35:33 Demosthenes: you are sucumbing to the DWIM fallacy that lispers suffered from in the 70s 08:35:45 so i asked about a use case. its the group opinion that isn't a good thing to do. great! 08:35:49 Demosthenes: automation is good, but you are (talking about) automating the wrong things at the wrong level. 08:36:03 Demosthenes: you have a serious problem with logic, too 08:36:06 Demosthenes: I don't see the problem. Perhaps you can paste an example? 08:36:21 Demosthenes: It'll eventually bite you, and it's a heck to read for other people 08:36:50 Demosthenes: Mind you, it's just another typical newbie pitfall. :-) 08:36:54 yeah, there is no lexically apparent indication of where the variables came from 08:36:56 serichsen: just defclass something with 15 slots. make an initialize-instance, the first line (in mine anyway) is with-slots (15 slots) ... and i have to manually keep them in sync. 08:37:06 wtf? 08:37:20 Demosthenes: most classes never need an i-i method 08:37:24 like a common block or something? 08:37:33 Demosthenes: and usually they only need it for a couple slots at most 08:37:48 its maintaining the list of slots in the obj vs the with-slots idea. if you just use accessors i suppose its not an issue 08:37:51 I think the largest number of slots I've messed with in an i-i method is 2 08:38:06 Demosthenes: you should use accessors in most cases 08:38:09 but i didn't like pollutting the namespace with a ton of accessors given with-slots and slot-value 08:38:15 slots are internal implementation details 08:38:16 Demosthenes: you want it to be like in C++? 08:38:27 *rahul* facepalm 08:38:34 prxq: don't do c++ enough to know 08:38:40 Demosthenes: you seem to come to every incorrect conclusion that you possibly could 08:38:58 i modelled a data structure as an object. it has slots because the data has information. 08:39:08 thats a problem? 08:39:26 Demosthenes: (defmacro my-defclass (name ...) `(progn (defclass ,name...) (defmacro ,(intern (format nil "~A-~A-~A" 'with name 'class-slots)) () ...))) 08:39:29 *rahul* facepalm 08:39:31 if the object has 15 things to track, i shouldn't have 15 slots? this is why i mentioned a hash earlier :P 08:39:42 Demosthenes: slots are an implementation detail -- you should be able to remove/rename slots without breaking backwards-compatibility of your API. If you use accessors you can achieve that. 08:39:44 Demosthenes: and AGAIN, you come to the most incorrect conclusion you possibly could 08:39:59 Demosthenes: Also, accessors are generic function, so you can write :after, :before, :around methods on them 08:40:04 Demosthenes: slots or not have nothing to do with the interaction with your class 08:40:09 Demosthenes: the problem is trivial to solve using defmacro... it's just a bad idea... you are thinking on the wrong level of abstraction 08:40:15 slots are a detail of HOW things are stored and WHERE 08:40:24 drewc: i agree. 08:40:35 accessors are the interface to the conceptual properties of the object 08:41:12 Demosthenes: I have many classes with more accessors than slots 08:41:16 Demosthenes: How do these 15 items relative to each other? 08:41:20 relate 08:41:38 rahul: yes, you're right. what we're missing here is that i agree that the way to acccess an objects data externally is ONLY via accessor 08:41:40 technically, you don't even need slots if you have defmethod 08:41:57 i'm referring to inside the methods of the object, i was using with-slots instead of accessors 08:42:11 Demosthenes: objects do not have methods 08:42:13 drewc: well, there needs to be something under all the turtles 08:42:21 rahul: no, there doesn't 08:42:29 drewc: oh, I guess all the properties could be stored in a hash table per property 08:42:31 Demosthenes: maybe you should take serichsen's suggestion, and show an example of what is there and what you want there to be instead 08:42:45 rahul: not even that 08:42:46 Demosthenes: objects do not have methods 08:42:47 rahul: no ... they can be stored in the method body itself 08:42:57 drewc: if they're constants, sure 08:43:02 rahul: no ... 08:43:02 and that is something I do commonly, too 08:43:12 adeht: the conversation's wandered again... i got my answer about not automating with-slots 08:43:22 rahul: a SETF simply redefines the method... 08:43:27 no slots needed 08:43:30 heh 08:43:39 yeah, I see 08:43:43 *drewc* has done this 08:43:53 well, that's a variant on my "in a hashtable" solution 08:44:05 if a generic function is a hashtable.. sure. 08:44:09 it's just that the hashtable happens to be the dispatch of CLOS 08:44:11 yeah 08:44:18 tcr: i've used objects in many langs, so i was following the common pattern here. i have a data structure with specific interfaces to the content. the slots are all pieces of data 08:44:27 any association is then a variant of your "in a hash-table" solution 08:44:38 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:44:53 Demosthenes: ok, when you're learning lisp, a common question is, what other languages do you know? 08:45:09 Demosthenes: if the person answers, none. then you say, ok, learning lisp will be easy. 08:45:14 'save for the lack of hashing. and the lack of a table, the solution is identical to a hash-table!' :) 08:45:14 start with perl, or Moose for perl objects. 08:45:33 Demosthenes: if the person answers a couple languages, then you say, ok, learing lisp will be a challenge. 08:45:36 Demosthenes: Unless confidental, it's a good time to become specific 08:45:40 drewc: :) 08:45:43 snearch [n=olaf@g225055205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:44 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-033-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:56 drewc: well, it's the whole implementation vs interface thing again 08:46:16 Demosthenes: What are you trying to compute? What data? 08:46:19 tcr: i don't see the value, again, the topic has wandered. 08:46:37 automating with-slots is a bad idea. yep. done. 08:46:39 People can describe how they'd implement what you're trying to do 08:46:52 Demosthenes: the topic has wandered to the fact that you have no clue how OO works in CL 08:47:01 Demosthenes: you don't see the value in getting help with your design which is obviously broken and possibly learning how to program in lisp along the way? 08:47:09 tcr: no we can't, because he wants to implement something that doesn't make sense :) 08:47:12 Demosthenes: then what are you doing here? :) 08:47:16 Demosthenes: Learning idomacy most often means asking other people how they'd do it 08:47:26 tcr: at compile time, he wants to see the slots of the OBJECT that is passed in to the method 08:47:28 drewc: sure i do or i wouldn't be here. why bother when antagonized though? 08:47:44 the model i have is working great, i had an annoyance relevent to the automation topic. 08:47:49 rahul: That topic is so 10minutes ago. We moved on. 08:47:54 Demosthenes: fair enough, a thick skin and a desire to learn don't always go together. 08:48:12 tcr: no, the problem is that he doesn't understand the difference between a function and a class 08:48:20 and an object and an invocation of a method 08:48:58 Demosthenes: If you are not ridiculed every once and again it means you're not learning anymore :-) 08:49:14 tcr: i'm thick skinned enough, thats not the issue 08:49:25 i'm happy to explain, just let me finish it before tirading 08:49:59 another problem is that such a macro becomes less useful when you have several objects to deal with.. then you come up with hacks like say :prefix that will prefix the name for each slot with one given in the place of use 08:50:07 Demosthenes: having all your ideas torn apart and finding out you've been an idiot all these years is a right of passage 'round these parts... the sooner you get it over with, the sooner you'll be able to move on. 08:50:15 adeht: 08:50:16 Demosthenes: you always start off by confusing the issue and conflating concepts that are totally different 08:50:21 Sure, I just wanted to say that there comes time where you have to put cards on the table and be specific, so people can provide specific help rather than general ridiculing. 08:51:06 -!- infidel2 [n=infidel2@pool-173-58-73-242.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 08:51:08 In fact it's a good way to avoid evasive ridiculing :-) 08:51:20 Demosthenes: maybe you're trying to hit the ground running, and realizing that you are wearing snowshoes in a jungle 08:51:21 tcr: each object contains the information that was in a text packet from a vendor. its encapuslated because each generation of packet requires slightly different parsing, but object accessors let me give a consistent frontend. in the current invocation, i don't pass slot values, i pass the packet, and the initialize-isntance :After method parses it and populates my slots... 08:52:00 Demosthenes: let's hope your classes don't inherit from each other 08:52:19 i have to generalize, i had 20 different versions of 20+ packet types to parse and normalize! 08:52:22 Demosthenes: i-i is NOT a constructor 08:52:27 Demosthenes: that sounds back-asswards... why would you do that in an initialize-instance rather than in a make-foo-from-bar type function? 08:52:31 it's a way to extend the built-in constructor 08:52:44 drewc: exactly 08:54:20 Demosthenes: you call make-instance only after you've figured out the class to create and the initargs to pass 08:54:26 rahul: using i-i may be a throwback to other languages. PCL sold i-i as the preferred method. 08:54:39 Demosthenes: ummmm no 08:54:52 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:54:53 don't blame your bad judgement on other people again 08:54:55 Demosthenes: i highly doubt PCL recommends parsing in i-i methods! 08:55:09 rahul: in this case, i do have a switch function that says "hey, thats version X, make an object of type X and pass it the packet to digest" 08:55:18 drewc: maybe not parsing, but initialization 08:55:33 i see that as the same here. the values of the slots are contained in the packet which must be parsed. 08:55:53 Demosthenes: suppose you got a bad packet, why should you allocate an instance before you notice it? 08:56:18 adeht: there switch function has to detect packet version and validity 08:56:35 Demosthenes: so, parse the packet, using a function, and create a list of initargs and values. only then (if you actually need it... is the plist not enough?) should you call make-instance. 08:56:38 If you know it's valid you must already have destructured the packet, right? 08:56:53 Demosthenes: if you're initializing slots, you don't need an i-i method 08:56:57 So you know its structural elements, and can pass those to make-instance of the appropriate class 08:57:20 tcr: no, looking for specific keys... you're right you could get a corrupt packet, but not a zero length one 08:57:39 rahul: nope. all my slots are nil and have no initform 08:57:56 Demosthenes: Decouple parsing from object creation 08:58:03 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:58:10 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:58:15 You don't win anything by doing it the other way, I think 08:58:19 what the hell? 08:58:20 Demosthenes: count how often you say 'no' vs 'yes'... you're very quick to discount the right solutions. 08:58:33 you know, this likely sounds bizarre in any OO language. the point was given the diversity of packet types, was to encapsulate all the logic in and object and ideally never look at it again 08:58:37 Demosthenes: "all my slots are nil"? 08:58:46 what does that even mean? why have slots if they're all nil? 08:58:55 -!- ska` [n=user@203.146.146.169] has quit [No route to host] 08:59:02 rahul: the initform is nil. they are set in i-i during parse 08:59:09 Demosthenes: logic is not encapsulated in objects 08:59:09 Demosthenes: logic is encapsulated in functions, data in objects. 08:59:50 Demosthenes: If you decouple as outlined enough, you won't have the big-list-of-slots problem 08:59:57 in your i-i method 09:00:00 Demosthenes: so the defclass form defines the default as a bogus object? 09:00:06 because you won't need an i-i method anymore :-) 09:00:13 heh 09:00:16 ok, if all the data for the object is in the packet, why wouldn't i parse in i-i ? 09:00:17 I was gonna say :) 09:00:27 Demosthenes: because that's ridiculous! 09:00:31 tcr: yeah, then i push the slot xref maintenance out elsewhere 09:00:40 rahul: Uhm why is it ridiculous? 09:00:42 Demosthenes: the data is IN there. 09:00:46 Demosthenes: what is i-i called? do either of those i's stand for 'parse' or 'packet' ? 09:00:54 Demosthenes: you first figure out the data, THEN create the data structure 09:01:10 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:01:20 Demosthenes: no, you don't deal with slots.. you just parse the data and pass the parsed objects via initargs 09:01:30 initialize-instance exists to "initialize" the slots if a basic initform isn't sufficient, correct? 09:01:49 He just tried to stay within the framework, I don't think it's ridiculous. 09:01:55 Demosthenes: if you want to do it your way, you'd create something abstract that takes a packet as a slot, and in i-i parses it and changes its class to the appropriate packet type 09:02:23 Demosthenes: yes, _initialize_, not parse some external data 09:02:49 you're asking for trouble if you try to do all this work in the i-i 09:02:53 *drewc* gives up. 09:02:55 Demosthenes: Well, no you don't push the maintaince elsewhere. Once you have objects, you create a lowlevel function layer that operates on these objects. Only that layer has to deal with the concrete contents of the objects. 09:03:03 you've made your code untestable, for one 09:03:08 well, not unit testable 09:03:25 if Demosthenes doesn't care to become a better programmer, i don't care to discuss how that could be possible :) 09:03:29 *drewc* sleeps 09:03:40 How did you come to that conclusion? 09:03:46 Like, honestly! 09:04:00 tcr: because he's never come to a correct conclusion in a week 09:04:07 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-23-209.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:04:11 i'm listening, but the point is all the information needed to create the fullobject is passed as a packet, why shouldn't the i-i use that to set the slots? 09:04:18 even though he claims to know the things needed to come to that conclusion 09:04:29 There's no "kill-definition" in slime? I.e. something that automagically funbounds a defun, (more usefully) remove-methods a defmethod? 09:04:39 Demosthenes: It's not what initialize-instance is supposed to be for 09:04:50 frodef: You can remove methods via the inspector 09:04:55 frodef: no, you're supposed to inspect the g-f and remove from here 09:04:58 there 09:05:01 (and also fmakunbound) 09:05:03 frodef: but that would be a cool command 09:05:17 ok, thanks. 09:05:18 Demosthenes: i have a screw and a hammer... why shouldn't i bang it until my wood is fastened? 09:05:21 tcr: so i make it a separate function? this seems to be about intent 09:05:27 teur [n=Golovnev@212.98.161.178] has joined #lisp 09:05:33 the CLOS designers didn't intend i-i to become a constructor? 09:05:35 Demosthenes: initialize-instance is supposed to get the slot values 09:05:38 rahul: yes, I find it's quite useful in ELI. 09:05:44 Demosthenes: no, make-instance is a constructor 09:05:58 Demosthenes: but constructors do not parse. they construct. 09:06:09 they take the values and create an object using them. that's ALL. 09:06:17 Demosthenes: Yeah what rahul said, i-i is a method to customize some very specific part of your object creation. 09:06:22 do not mash together everything you see into one function 09:06:25 (one could argue that allocate-instance is what does the constructing) 09:06:26 Demosthenes: Usually you don't need i-i at all 09:06:57 drewc: constructing /= allocation? 09:07:03 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95.24.119.224] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:07:05 drewc: well... no.. that allocates the space, but it's not officially an object until i-i is done 09:07:29 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:07:36 drewc: once i-i is done, the object should be usable according to its contract 09:07:36 hm.. how exactly would I remove a method using the inspector? 09:07:41 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html, search forward to /instance :after/ 09:07:50 frodef: there's a remove button next to the method 09:07:55 frodef: in the g-f 09:08:20 mstevens [n=mstevens@193.227.111.165] has joined #lisp 09:08:32 "based on the account's initial balance" 09:08:38 see... i spend too much time in the mop 09:08:49 where does it say you are parsing a sstatement from your bank in i-i? 09:08:58 i have objects that are never make-instance'd 09:09:11 you cruel 09:09:16 there is a dependency between the values of two slots, and i-i sets that up 09:09:16 heh 09:09:50 drewc: I would always make sure make-instance was called to create the object 09:10:03 rahul: sorry.. with the gf in *Slime Inspector*, I see a line "METHODS: (# but who knows, maybe your case makes sense :P 09:10:25 rahul: then you'd be invoking the entire protocol for object initialisation... 09:10:26 frodef: you have to use the slime-fancy-inspector contrib 09:10:35 tcr ah! :) thanks. 09:10:39 ok, so one of the goals was to use inheritance across multiple generations that handle different versions of the same packet type 09:10:45 frodef: You can simply use the slime-fancy metacontrib for all the fancy bits 09:10:58 given only minor changes occur in the input between generations, but the output data is typically constant 09:10:58 rahul: it makes sense to me :) 09:11:17 heh 09:11:20 Demosthenes: inheritance seems weird in that case 09:11:37 Demosthenes: you do NOT want to use inheritance if your i-i is like that 09:11:45 Demosthenes: it will make a total mess of your object 09:11:47 Demosthenes: Yeah, I think you want delegation rather than inheritance 09:11:48 adeht: 20 objects to match 20 generations of the same data which only have minor differences in formatting but the same data? 09:12:19 tcr: he'll need to mangle the packet to transform it into the old version's format, too 09:12:35 Demosthenes: what does inheritance have to do with that? 09:12:38 Demosthenes: I'm not sure about what changes if not the data.. "formatting"? 09:12:42 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:12:54 *tcr* pulls out, has actually to go to work and is way too late. See you later. 09:12:57 Demosthenes: why should the objects have different behaviors or storage? 09:13:01 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.146] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:13:01 Demosthenes: you seem to be confusing objects and classes... they are not the same thing. 09:13:48 (all classes are objects, and some objects are classes, but that's not the point) 09:14:25 rahul: mangling a packet so the parent object's contstructor can read it isntead of writing the parser *again* each time is bad?1 09:14:33 Demosthenes: this is not even a sensible thing in ANY OO language 09:14:47 -!- redblue [i=star@207.253.108.124] has quit [Success] 09:14:51 this runs contrary to what is taught to Java programmers, for sure 09:14:56 i think that was part of this, i was hoping to use genrations across objects to only model the changes from the base. 09:15:08 Demosthenes: no, it's STUPID 09:15:19 *drewc* really gives up.... plonk 09:15:21 <_deepfire> Demosthenes, were you suggested to make-instance a generic packet type, then change-class in initialise-instance :after, once you've parsed it? 09:15:32 Demosthenes: you should deal with these "formatting" issues outside object creation.. when you get the canonical representation for data, then you create the object.. no need for inheritance 09:15:36 _deepfire: I did suggest that 09:15:38 _deepfire: nope, thats never come up 09:15:44 *rahul* facepalm 09:15:53 <_deepfire> rahul, cut the drama already 09:15:56 Demosthenes: I suggested that just in this discussion 09:16:05 _deepfire: or pardons to rahul, perhaps i didn't realize it did 09:16:34 I didn't mention it before because I didn't realize you wanted to figure out what the data was after you created the place to store it 09:17:15 <_deepfire> rahul, also, the appeal to Java authority is really weak 09:17:18 Demosthenes: if you want to inherit parsing code, you call a function 09:17:33 _deepfire: um, he was appealing to how "everyone else" does OO 09:18:42 _deepfire: you fix Demosthenes if you think I'm completely off base on everything. 09:18:56 have fun. 09:19:02 <_deepfire> rahul, I didn't say you are off base on everything. 09:19:37 the reality is i get a "paragraph" (for lack of a better term) containing data points from software i don't control. parsing it sucks. now, each time they change the backend the output changes a little, but the data is the same. on occasion they introduce a new data point... this sounded ideal to have modelled in classes (drewr) and use i-i to parse the values on creation 09:20:06 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:20:07 Demosthenes: again, you are trying to use a hammer on a screw 09:20:13 no, it sounds ideal for data-driven modelling 09:20:17 <_deepfire> Demosthenes, for true perversion you can chain the specialisation: first goes :after for I-I, then a chain of :after methods on U-I-F-D-C (which is called by change-class) 09:20:25 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-176-28.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:20:52 adeht: maintainability against the back end was a concern. data driven modelling sounds about right 09:21:19 classes and methods sound right for encapsulating the complexity of each generation 09:21:30 as opposed to giant switch functions that grow in complexity foreever 09:21:44 rares [n=rares@174.22.225.229] has joined #lisp 09:21:47 and objects provided standardized accessors to the data 09:21:48 assuming that each generation needs to behave differently in the code that comes later, yeah 09:21:52 -!- rares [n=rares@174.22.225.229] has left #lisp 09:22:15 so far, this all sounds great. i think the arguemnt is why am i parsing in i-i... 09:22:16 there's no need for a giant switch function.. you just have a dispatch mechanism and a bunch of functions (or methods, if you use generic functions for dispatch).. but there's no need to bring classes until you have the data ready 09:22:28 Demosthenes: that's exactly what we objected to 09:22:35 and we told you that specifically. 09:22:35 ok, so i see two constructs 09:22:47 all this mess was because you didn't realize that? 09:23:06 <_deepfire> I.e. (m-i 'generic-packet) calls (i-i :after generic-packet) which parses and calls (change-class 'packet-a) which calls (update-i-f-d-c 'generic-packet 'packet-a) where you can parse further and call (change-class 'packet-a-b) which will call (u-i-f-d-c 'packet-a 'packet-a-b) ... ... ... 09:23:11 a dispatch table for functions to parse and then create an object, or a dispatch table for objects and fire & forget and let the object's i-i parse 09:23:44 the only reason i used i-i was because i could relate it to the class 09:23:55 instead of maintaining a bunch of functions and a dispatch table too 09:24:15 _deepfire: acutally, I'm not sure of the consequences of change-class in make-instance 09:24:20 _deepfire: that sounds intriuging 09:24:26 _deepfire: officially, it's illegal 09:24:37 even in an :After? 09:24:49 <_deepfire> rahul, can you point me at where it is so written? 09:24:50 I think make-instance MUST return an object of the class that was passed in 09:25:15 <_deepfire> Well, this is not a problem, my-make-instance is always there. 09:25:29 right 09:25:33 i already have a working object with multiple generations where the base object users i-i :after, and the later generations use i-i :around and an conditions 09:25:53 the CLHS says it returns an object of that class 09:26:12 or if the data is totally changes, i recreate the obj instead of inheriting 09:26:13 but it doesn't clarify whether that's the default method or the generic function 09:26:23 patching i-i via around only handles minor changes to the input 09:26:26 oh wait, it does 09:26:30 "The generic function make-instance creates and returns a new instance of the given class. " 09:26:30 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:26:57 <_deepfire> I think it's mostly safe to change-class in :after on I-I. 09:27:03 I wonder if compilers can use that information to infer types, and that's why it's considered illegal to change-class in i-i 09:27:07 <_deepfire> Yeah, that. 09:28:30 well if a generic object was the base, calling a separate method to initiate parse which would be the switch to change objects sounds very similar, but just extends oo to the switch function... 09:28:32 Demosthenes: you made this wild scheme of conditions to handle the control flow 09:28:50 Demosthenes: this is why you don't do things like that. it's not how OOP works 09:28:56 rahul: i made seletive conditions to handle small changes to data. 09:29:02 *rahul* facepalm 09:29:08 exactly my point 09:29:25 you have all this crazy machinery to do something simple 09:29:37 now what was that about lisp making all simple things difficult? 09:30:16 rahul: funny, i thought the conditions were easy ;] 09:30:31 they're easy, but they're complex control flow 09:30:37 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-176-28.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:30:37 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:42 rahul: with limited complexity where i choose to use it 09:30:46 because non-local control flow is always simpler than, say, defun. 09:30:46 they're an easy way to get control flow that's determined at run time 09:31:06 <_deepfire> The chain of specialising (... -> update-instance-for-different-class -> change-class -> ...) sounds fun though. 09:31:07 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229076010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:31:43 the example i have checks each data key coming in, and throws a condition if it doesn't recognize a key. the later i-i has a handler, checks to see if it knows the key was an update, and saves it, then resumes. if there's ever an unrecognized key it stops. 09:32:03 _deepfire: it's also an interesting way to do state machines 09:32:10 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-033-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:32:41 <_deepfire> rahul, the state machine spec isn't data-driven enough, in this case, IMO.. 09:32:42 Demosthenes: really? 09:32:54 _deepfire: no, in general, I'm saying 09:33:02 rahul: what i just explains works. 09:33:09 _deepfire: a class represents a state, like the state of a protocol connection 09:33:11 s/explains/explained/ 09:33:39 Demosthenes: and using the Y combinator instead of labels works, too 09:34:04 when all you have is a lambda, everything looks like a Y combinator 09:34:07 in the PCL they had an example of a log reader where perhaps it reads a log entry that it doesn't know how to parse, but higher level code might. so you pass up all the info needed to parse it in the condition, let the high level code handle it if it can, then resume 09:34:12 <_deepfire> rahul, same problem applies, as you presumably change-class to make different GF's applicable --> specification of the state machine is heavily tangled into source code 09:34:40 that sounded like a good model for managing minor changes between versions. 09:34:53 _deepfire: well, the point is that the g-fs should behave differently when the connection is in different states 09:34:56 any major changes means no inheritance and defining a fresh class with its own parser 09:35:35 <_deepfire> rahul, the question is whether using GF dispatch is the right way to model state variance 09:35:36 Demosthenes: WHEN ALL YOU HAVE IS A HAMMER, EVERYTHING LOOKS LIKE A THUMB. 09:35:42 Demosthenes: think about that 09:36:08 <_deepfire> rahul, and sure, I realise that the answer to that question varies 09:36:08 _deepfire: depends on the behaviors and the differences between behaviors in your application 09:36:11 odd, i thought that was a unique lisp-specific solution 09:36:12 <_deepfire> yeah 09:36:17 _deepfire: it's just one way 09:36:46 Demosthenes: yeah, it's a unique lisp-specific solution that EVERY SINGLE LISP PROGRAMMER SAYS IS A BAD IDEA 09:37:06 great, i get you don't like the inheritance model and parsing in i-i 09:37:21 Demosthenes: exceptional situations are NOT supposed to happen normally 09:37:37 that's why they're called EXCEPTIONAL 09:37:49 *blink* conditions don't just signal errors. 09:37:50 Demosthenes: the inheritance model may be fine 09:37:53 <_deepfire> rahul, that's not how they are called in the CL world, by the way 09:38:06 Demosthenes: errors are not the only exceptional situation 09:38:07 <_deepfire> rahul, as Demosthenes says they are called /conditions/ 09:38:10 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:38:26 _deepfire: they are called exceptional situations. some of which are errors 09:38:27 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:33 they require exceptional handling 09:38:49 it's for control flow that is not to be expected 09:39:20 so whats wrong with a newer class calling the parent contstructor and knowing howto handle one or two conditions? 09:39:20 Demosthenes: the problem with the inheritance model is that it screws up parsing in i-i 09:39:31 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:39:33 "calling the parent constructor"? 09:39:34 ok. 09:39:39 that doesn't even mean anything 09:40:00 can you point to something that you are calling that is a parent consturctor? 09:40:19 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:40:22 so the reason again why i parse in i-i was to tightly bind that parser to that generation of object, without needing further dispatch tables for functions. 09:40:23 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:34 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93.81.226.206] has joined #lisp 09:40:47 rahul: i'm using handler-(bind/case) on call-next-method in the child's i-i:around 09:41:04 ugh 09:41:08 Demosthenes: you make me sick 09:41:27 what a mess you've created 09:41:47 if i decouple the parse from the object, then i may as well just define an object for the final latest datatype, and maintain a dispatch table of parsers whose end result passes the data to make-instance for that final class 09:41:55 you took a simple problem, and now you have a mash of thumb flesh, thumb bone, and thumbnail 09:42:05 OMG 09:42:11 AND YOUR CODE WOULD BE 10 TIMES SIMPLER 09:42:12 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:32 Demosthenes: that is the first thing i've heard you say that makes any sense to me :) 09:42:38 drewc: :) 09:42:41 *laugh* 09:42:51 and yet... 09:43:11 Demosthenes: if you do not realize why that is such a wonderful solution to the problem, you should be locked up for your own safety and that of others 09:43:29 Demosthenes: Rube Goldberg was making a JOKE 09:43:34 he was not SERIOUS 09:43:36 (i'm tiring) there was something about code maintenance was good because you never changed the old object code once created... where here that big switch and dispatch table could break everyone when you make changes. 09:43:48 making each class independent meant compartmentalization 09:43:57 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:43:59 but they're NOT INDEPENDENT 09:44:08 and now you speak nonsense again. i give up. 09:44:12 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:44:13 they have this mass of conditions flowing around in their i-i 09:44:16 (again, for good this time) 09:44:43 Demosthenes: you are the anti-zen-and-the-art-of-motorcycle-maintainence 09:45:09 *laugh* there is method to my madness, but i agree its funky 09:45:23 now, the weakness is still the switch function. 09:45:28 sigh 09:45:31 no, there is no method 09:45:35 but i suppose with a dispatch thats minimized 09:45:38 there is just mess 09:45:46 what switch function? 09:45:54 forget it 09:46:06 I'm too sick and tired of this mess 09:46:16 and literally sick and tired too 09:46:28 Demosthenes: you are incorrigible. 09:46:29 well i do appreciate the input, even if i'm the antichrist 09:46:33 thank you! 09:46:46 thats the best thing you've said about me today 09:46:48 your goal is the reduction of Quality. 09:46:54 -!- moocow is now known as holycow 09:46:58 in fact, the destruction of Quality. 09:47:00 Demosthenes: how do you distinguish between "generations"? 09:47:16 <_deepfire> Demosthenes, don't let occasional communications dissuade you from coming here. 09:47:18 you find something good and you create something that is the opposite. 09:47:37 adeht: i pass in a packet, a list of strings, and there must be a switch function to detect the generation of the data in order to pass it ot the right object 09:47:39 <_deepfire> rahul, there is way too much drama, honestly 09:47:52 adeht: the poitn is i could just use a dispatch table to pass it to a function and create a final object 09:47:57 _deepfire: do you realize all the nonsense he's been spouting over the past few days? 09:48:01 adeht: which i'm open to 09:48:05 <_deepfire> Demosthenes, what "to detect the generation of the data" means? 09:48:10 Demosthenes: that's what I suggested, is it not? 09:48:12 _deepfire: he's found simple solutions to his problems and intentionally ignored them 09:48:40 adeht: its come up, and i agree. 09:48:55 but again, i thought there was a gain to be had in compartmentalizing via objects 09:49:00 specfic to long term maintenance 09:49:02 Demosthenes: you didn't answer my question, however.. this switch function, what does it switch about 09:49:08 Demosthenes: _what_ are you compartmentalizing? 09:49:21 it appears i can get the same effect with the dispatch table and separate functions 09:49:27 Demosthenes: is there any desired difference in behavior of packets of different generations when others interact with them? 09:49:50 Demosthenes: and since when did separating parsing from object behavior mandate that all objects are the same class? 09:49:52 rahul: i jsut want the data out of them and their obnoxious format 09:50:09 the parser could *gasp* create objects of different classes 09:50:34 true 09:50:38 Demosthenes: and here I thought you just wanted an excuse to define i-i methods and use conditions 09:50:55 rahul: nope. 09:51:01 *rahul* facepalm 09:51:20 rahul: but it could be fun 09:51:34 it clearly was more fun than writing code that works 09:51:44 i'd prefer something that works. 09:52:01 at one point i worked this over with a local who specializes in software maintenance 09:52:09 as I've said before. people who think coding is fun tend to not care if the solution is good, just whether it was fun to code it 09:52:18 he recommended investigating objects and polymorphism to hide away the generations 09:52:27 so i've been looking at it. it doesn't have to be the final 09:52:45 i'm building examples before i embark on taking care of my multitude of generations and packet types 09:52:47 <_deepfire> Demosthenes, ok, can you proceed with the information you gathered so far? If yes, please avoid irritating rahul. 09:53:07 Demosthenes: well, all he has is a hammer, so all he sees is your forehead to smash 09:53:19 -!- teur [n=Golovnev@212.98.161.178] has left #lisp 09:53:20 Demosthenes: he probably comes from a purely OO background 09:53:37 i'll look into switching vs i-i, i agree, i think its simpler 09:53:42 he's a java guy./ 09:53:46 it doesn't have to be switching 09:53:47 *ducks* 09:53:48 exactly 09:54:06 so he has a hammer and he smashed your head with it 09:54:31 Demosthenes: usually inheritance is not used just for aggregating chunks of code for the purpose of creating objects that have indistinguishable behavior otherwise 09:54:34 with any design idea you have to evaluate the practicality, in another language that layout would have been impossible 09:54:34 you can dispatch using tables or whatever 09:54:53 only lisps CLOS and conditions made that an option 09:54:57 not that it was the best one 09:55:00 Demosthenes: just because it's possible doesn't mean it's good 09:55:05 exactly 09:55:20 i have to write my parsers any which way 09:55:20 Spaija [n=markko@nat/cisco/x-xqewulfxixknogtd] has joined #lisp 09:55:24 CL has these features to make DIFFICULT problems easy to solve 09:55:58 so from this i'll go look at using a version dispatcher to pass the packet to a parser 09:56:13 with the final output being an object of said type with the data points i want, and no i-i 09:56:16 just initforms 09:56:21 you do not use a nuclear bomb to plow a field 09:56:31 <_deepfire> rahul, re "people who think coding is fun" -- if said people have to maintain their own code -- well, they learn.. 09:56:31 rahul: glass is crunchy 09:56:33 Demosthenes: initargs 09:56:39 adeht: yeah ] 09:56:40 ;] 09:56:42 _deepfire: hopefully, yes 09:58:06 Demosthenes: of course, I have a way of doing this with a single parser... no conditions, no switches 09:58:12 none based on "Versions" at least 09:58:14 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229076010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 09:58:28 for a single packet type across generations. 09:58:36 -!- pavellidiq [i=c28d2f82@gateway/web/freenode/x-lsdyoctraejbofjf] has quit ["Page closed"] 09:58:38 the only way i can see that is via internal switching 09:58:55 ie: make the parser react the different versions of records internally 09:59:11 -!- Spaija [n=markko@nat/cisco/x-xqewulfxixknogtd] has left #lisp 09:59:26 I would either define a different macro for defclass or I'd use MOP 09:59:36 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 09:59:49 and put all the key names in the slot defs and register them all somewhere globally 09:59:51 i did still want to avoid that to maintain the integrity of older versions, separate functions does that 10:00:03 integrity? 10:00:10 it would be the same 10:00:35 unless the old versioned packet came with a field that is defined in a later version 10:00:54 in which case, I'm not sure whose system is the one lacking integrity 10:01:07 each version has minor changes, add a key, remove a key, change the order... or spacing 10:01:17 who cares 10:01:21 stupid "human readable" output 10:01:28 don't need to change the parser based on that 10:01:29 remember, i'm mopping up from their terrible output 10:01:35 oh, I remember 10:01:44 I even told you how to deal with it generically 10:02:06 look at emacs's regex optimization that's used for font lock if you want a hint 10:02:46 THAT is a decent use of regex, even if it never uses a kleene star or anything similar 10:02:51 it's just ands and ors 10:03:14 and would be compiled to much faster code using META than using cl-ppcre, I think... 10:04:02 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:53 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-80.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 10:05:35 <_deepfire> rahul, you announced some code on the channel the other day.. care to tell about it? 10:05:58 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-4.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:37 _deepfire: formulate or prototypes? 10:10:11 prototypes was later, I guess 10:11:09 prototypes is just a way to create CLOS instances that follow the prototype OO model 10:11:39 slots are dynamic and slot lookup is delegated to other objects if not found locally 10:12:00 dynamic meaning dynmically created when you set them 10:12:41 supports multiple-delegation and creating a prototype from a CLOS class 10:12:44 -!- The_Doctor [n=The_Doct@168.105.232.71] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:10 in which case, the slots of the CLOS class are "built-in" to the object 10:13:27 bwahaha, if i'm passing parsed data to make-instance to create an object, i can use cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings with named captures to return a plist for apply! 10:13:35 thats golden. 10:17:27 pjb [n=t@79.149.131.32] has joined #lisp 10:18:17 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 10:18:49 but regardless of all that functionality, what I'm most proud of is my little control structure: 10:18:58 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 10:19:05 (dolist (... (error)) (ignore-errors (return ...))) 10:19:36 "try all possibilities until one succeeds, otherwise error myself" 10:19:56 try all possibilities ignoring errors, otherwise... 10:20:03 yep 10:20:18 but it short circuits 10:20:25 eating errors is bad 10:20:37 ehhh yeah 10:20:48 actually hmm 10:21:11 I think I only want to continue on a slot-missing error 10:21:38 <_deepfire> rahul, interesting.. 10:21:42 (find-if (lambda (possibility) (ignore-errors ...)) possibilities) 10:21:42 pjb, memo from fusss: hey, do you mind seeing invoice.lisp released as cl-money? 10:23:58 Well, the problem is that conditions are not totally specified, so it's hard to catch what you want. 10:24:07 -!- pjb [n=t@79.149.131.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:24:07 pjb: I need the block and return 10:24:35 pjb [n=t@79.149.131.32] has joined #lisp 10:24:40 pjb: I need the block and return 10:24:58 nil is a valid result 10:25:06 find-if does it for you, unless indeed you need to return nil. 10:25:12 ok. 10:25:15 yeh 10:26:51 pjb: therein lies the beauty of my control structure 10:27:06 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:27:26 it has to use mostly non-local flow control because it can't look at data 10:27:35 it's just dealing with slot accessors 10:27:42 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:30:11 hmm yeah. I was suppressing slot-unbound conditions, which is definitely the wrong thing 10:30:34 if the slot is present in one of the delegates but unbound, then the slot should be seen as being unbound 10:31:00 ouch. but I think I need to change the set-value restart 10:31:18 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:31:20 it should set at the level of the original object being accessed, not the delegate 10:31:35 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-200.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 10:32:41 ARRRG 10:32:48 The default method on slot-missing signals an error of type error. 10:32:54 damn you, clhs 10:33:03 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C898.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:13 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 10:36:42 <_deepfire> rahul, you can sort this out with fe[nl]ix, he does ClTL3 these days.. *wink* *wink* 10:36:53 heh 10:36:57 <_deepfire> Er, CLtL 10:37:42 basically, signals an error of type error should be forbidden language in the spec 10:37:43 <_deepfire> Srsly, though, do you feel like ensuring that Cliki knows about this? 10:37:59 it's just a general class of deficiency 10:38:01 <_deepfire> (I mean the specific case of slot-ounbound) 10:38:10 which page? 10:39:39 bleh 10:39:45 I Can't find this. I can hardly see 10:40:03 thank god for test cases. otherwise I'd have no idea if the code I wrote worked 10:40:08 *rahul* sleeps 10:50:15 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DC66.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:51:14 trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:08 <_deepfire> rahul, still there? 10:56:52 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-eurpwigxrnihnenx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:57:35 hjpark [n=user@119.207.211.20] has joined #lisp 10:57:42 Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:04 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dsveeunluokuppkp] has joined #lisp 10:58:22 hey, could you recommend me an efficient priority queue implementation? there are so many of them and i don't know which to choose 10:59:41 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:05:57 durbin [n=durbin@adsl-99-181-3-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:22 Dodek: efficient in what way? 11:12:06 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:12:48 am I supposed to be able to build sbcl 1.0.32.38 with clisp 2.47? 11:13:17 -!- lpolzer__ is now known as lpolzer 11:13:18 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@193.227.111.165] has quit ["leaving"] 11:13:39 lpolzer: I think that combo is meant to work, and bug reports are useful. Xof would know for sure. 11:14:55 Xach: with regard to both algorithmic complexity and implementation quality 11:15:14 no, 2.47 has a hilarious bug 11:15:22 it's documented in INSTALL as not working 11:15:42 I can't remember what the bug is, but it's something big and obvious 11:16:16 Dodek: i copied mine out of CLR (and introduced bugs). mega1 copied mine, fixed the bugs, and added it to sbcl's timer code. you could use that if you felt like it. 11:16:26 the problem I encountered was that clisp doesn't like functions being declared as ignorable 11:16:49 drwhat [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:18 *lpolzer* wanders off to try clisp 2.48. 11:17:32 lpolzer: that was it 11:18:27 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:18:40 -!- drwhat [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20:46 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:22:56 Xach: thanks, i'll look into it 11:24:33 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:29:11 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:31:31 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:50 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:34:19 demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.211] has joined #lisp 11:34:23 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:34:58 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.211] has quit [Client Quit] 11:35:33 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 11:38:28 -!- durbin [n=durbin@adsl-99-181-3-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:39:38 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 11:40:33 jsnell, I 11:40:42 Guthur [n=Michael@81.131.243.232] has joined #lisp 11:40:54 hello 11:41:03 jsnell, I'm wondering how hard it would be to make who-sets and who-reference work on clos slots 11:49:36 trittweiler: through slot-value, fairly easy. If you want to detect accessors as well, that's either straightforward or impossible 11:51:04 more generally, what do you mean by "clos slots"? A slot name? A slot definition (direct or effective)? 11:51:27 Working on accessors would be plus, but the code I'm working on uses with-slots directly 11:52:05 a slot-name, I guess 11:52:31 How is it either straightforward or impossible for accessors? 11:53:12 (Actually it does not consequently use slots, it uses both. So I'm interested in both :-)) 11:53:22 both, that's slot-value and accessors 11:53:50 You get who-references information implicitly by who-calls on accessors 11:54:38 and who-sets actually, too. 11:58:40 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:13 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:00:32 Jabberwockey [n=jens@84.46.36.19] has joined #lisp 12:02:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:03:28 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dsveeunluokuppkp] has left #lisp 12:04:41 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:05:30 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:05:35 Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has joined #lisp 12:08:32 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:09:48 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:12:14 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:19 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:08 voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #lisp 12:16:43 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:24:07 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:25:00 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-155-138.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:25:35 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.243] has joined #lisp 12:25:47 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 12:35:43 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:39:04 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:28 authentic [n=authenti@85.127.182.80] has joined #lisp 12:40:18 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:42:10 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:42:29 rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.250.87] has joined #lisp 12:42:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:44:58 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-cayaxohpoluhtqrm] has joined #lisp 12:44:59 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:45:34 davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:49 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1865.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:48:00 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:48:11 gmlk [n=gmlk@212.238.152.174] has joined #lisp 12:50:06 ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has joined #lisp 12:52:19 trittweiler: you get to know who uses an accessor name. You don't get to know if calling that accessor actually reads or sets a slot 12:53:45 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 12:57:59 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:21 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 13:00:42 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:05:08 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:06:16 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:06:55 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 13:08:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has quit [] 13:08:40 Krystof, If you define an :after method on some accessor, does this mean that method is run for both case, reading and writing? 13:09:08 Krystof, I thought what :accessor does is merely define methods on two generic function (one is the setf function) 13:10:20 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:44 minion: logs 13:10:45 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 13:14:02 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:14:06 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:17:20 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:21:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:23:12 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:27:47 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 13:31:27 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@76.104.220.73] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 13:33:06 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 13:38:07 arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.81.101] has joined #lisp 13:38:12 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.161.165] has joined #lisp 13:38:26 evening 13:39:09 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:13 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:16 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:05 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 13:41:47 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:46:59 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:47:23 bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 13:48:16 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:55 trittweiler i don't think you can define qualifiers on accessors, says here accessors readers and writers are unqualified methods http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/m_defcla.htm#defclass 13:50:18 Guthur: I would be somewhat surprised if the type of one method has no effect upon the legality of another. 13:50:21 er 13:50:24 Guthur, You're confused, I guess. That only says what DEFCLASS does not what you're allowed to 13:50:24 has any* 13:50:54 go to :accessor 13:50:56 Guthur, but anyway thanks for making me actually read the standard. 13:51:41 benny [n=benny@87.122.34.92] has joined #lisp 13:51:50 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:51:58 I don't know what Xof meant that you can't differentiate. 13:52:03 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:11 Hopefully he'll educate me later :-) 13:52:18 Guthur: isn't it saying the method unqualified, rather than that the generic function is unqualifiable? 13:52:25 consider something like (defclass foo () ((a :accessor a))) 13:52:38 Beeff [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:52:40 (defclass bar () ()) (defmethod a ((x bar)) 42) 13:52:49 -!- Beeff is now known as yvdriess 13:53:05 (defun baz (x) (a x)) ; who-references 'a, yes or no 13:53:17 i assumed that if meant you couldn't use a method that had a qualifier 13:53:53 I have a little prob setting the value of a structure slot, I passed the accessor function as an argument and call it with funcall, but: 13:53:54 (what is the current question?) 13:53:57 (setf (funcall accessor-fn new-pattern) ... 13:54:07 fails :p 13:54:27 Krystof, It does not know about the slot named A, but the accessor function is called. Ideally (perhaps mistakenly?) I'd like if who-references also includes calls to accesor functions, and who-sets also includes calls to the setf counterpart 13:54:49 yvdriess: you cannot pass the reader function and set a slot. You have to pass the setter function instead. (duh) 13:54:50 Guthur: the method on the gf generated by DEFCLASS is unqualified. I don't think that means you can't add another method on the gf that IS qualified (before/after/etc.). 13:55:26 trittweiler: this is what I'm addressing. In the three-lines above, if who-references looks for accessor methods, should BAZ be counted as referencing the slot A? 13:55:32 splittist k, that makes sense 13:55:43 Krystof, the accessor is passed and is setf-able 13:55:48 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:55:50 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225055205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:55:50 it's the funcall setf doesn't like 13:55:53 yvdriess: there is no such thing as "the accessor" 13:56:01 trittweiler: I agree that if you are using GFs that are both accessors and something else, the tool should be as confused as you possibly are (: 13:56:02 yvdriess: there is a reader, and there is a writer 13:56:04 Krystof, Though I can perfectly live with the way it's now as it's subsumed by who-calls. However, I _am_ interested in making who-references, and who-sets report on slots 13:56:23 because that functionality is just not there 13:57:09 so what does defpattern create for you then to setf slots 13:57:13 setf expanders or whatnot 13:57:27 no idea what defpattern is. Consult your documentation 13:57:48 first thing I did my good man 13:58:05 yvdriess: try passing #'(setf foo). 13:58:23 Notice that defstruct is not specified to create setf functions, iirc. 13:58:33 trittweiler: right. 13:58:56 pkhuong, I also use it both to read and write from the slot :/ so I should pass two arguments? 13:59:03 You actually have to pass (lambda (new-value struct) (setf (struct-foo struct) new-value)) 13:59:23 yvdriess: yes. Setf is a highly convenient and structured pun. 13:59:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has joined #lisp 14:00:01 There's an implementation of poor man's locatives, dunno how well it's designed. 14:00:05 trittweiler: I guess you know defpattern better than Xof or me. 14:00:14 it's probably almost as old as I am :-) 14:00:28 defpattern sounds like xref.lisp ?? 14:00:47 oh wait, can't I do (funcall (setf my-fn) ...) ? 14:00:54 You can, sometimes. 14:01:07 demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.111] has joined #lisp 14:01:21 trittweiler: I get the feeling we're talking at cross-purposes. I am saying that just because you see a call to a function which names an accessor, whether that's the reader or the writer version, you don't actually know whether that call site will actually ever read or write a slot 14:02:33 trittweiler: I have a three-quarter assed implementation of locatives (implemented as object reference + offset and SAP operations) in sb-mcas. 14:02:39 Krystof, I'm perplexed by how the function that is named like the accessor is supposed to write a slot? The setf function that is named like the accessor does the writing. 14:03:09 oh, that would be easy 14:03:32 (defmethod a ((x quux)) (setf (slot-value x 'b) 14)) ; given suitable definition of QUUX 14:03:36 but that's not at all what I am saying 14:03:39 But as said, I'm more interested in making it work for slot-value 14:04:03 that's fine, that's mostly uncontroversial, with the possible exception of dealing with variable slot-name argument 14:04:41 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:05:10 Krystof, I'm with splittist on that one. 14:05:25 what I'm saying is that trying to infer slot reading/writing from calls to :reader/:writer/:accessor names is not possible in principle (though you can do some kind of job in practice) 14:05:39 because arbitrary other methods can be defined on the same generic functions 14:05:47 Yes, sure. 14:06:32 Krystof: but practically, it's still useful, at least for interactive use. 14:06:35 sure 14:07:41 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:59 minion: chant 14:07:59 MORE INTERESTED 14:08:14 I wished for more practical :-) 14:09:48 bad luck 14:10:45 g'morning...or afternoon/evening, depending where everyone'sa t. 14:16:11 is there a way to get the setter defstruct made for you without having to resort to setf? 14:16:35 wrapping a lambda around and passing it just blows up my code 14:17:57 May I utter a collective WTF? 14:19:04 -!- GrayGonme [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:19:47 I have a transformation function, that at some point reads/sets slots without really caring what class it's getting, the slots that get transformed this way get passed along with the object/structure to the transformation function 14:20:17 this works well up to the point I do: (setf (funcall accessor-fn new-pattern) ... 14:20:53 (funcall (setf accessor-fn) ...) doesn't work, probably because it's a local var 14:21:14 another suggestion here was to wrap a lambda around it and pass this lambda around 14:21:42 now my question is, can I directly set a structure slot without having to use setf 14:21:54 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.111] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:23:05 yvdriess: no. You have to involve setf at some point. 14:23:07 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:41 ok thanks 14:26:12 *yvdriess* kicks himself 14:26:16 I can just use slot-value 14:26:20 and only pass the slot names 14:26:28 I don't think slot-value works on structs 14:26:37 it is implementation-dependent whether it works on structs 14:26:43 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:26:46 works on visualworks 14:27:08 plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:10 I don't think slot-value _reliably_ works on structs. :p 14:28:01 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:25 Ill deal with portability when I get a prototype up ;) 14:28:40 heresy! 14:29:07 using visual-works specific libraries anyway :p 14:29:31 smalltalk? 14:30:12 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:30:20 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:52 argh, lispworks 14:30:56 c|mell [n=cmell@85-130-6-120.2073243754.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:14 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 14:31:33 sharing a research lab with smalltalkers does that to you 14:32:06 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has joined #lisp 14:32:07 sounds like a good time anyway :) 14:32:35 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.161.165] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:07 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 14:35:27 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@128.237.157.138] has joined #lisp 14:37:10 billitch [n=billitch@82.67.155.88] has joined #lisp 14:38:37 borism_ [n=boris@213.35.234.234] has joined #lisp 14:39:59 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:40:48 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 14:44:51 -!- borism [n=boris@213.35.232.204] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:53:42 jleija [n=jleija@74.243.224.205] has joined #lisp 14:55:26 -!- bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit ["leaving"] 14:57:44 hugod [n=hugod@76.66.185.94] has joined #lisp 14:59:03 p0a [n=user@79.131.26.187] has joined #lisp 15:06:16 ejs [n=eugen@68-88-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:31 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:54 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 15:08:50 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-45-82-65-152-63.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:10:00 bye 15:10:29 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06fdad.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["To the Marilú, dear Watson!"] 15:13:37 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-155-138.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 15:15:17 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:55 p0a pasted "sb-ext:run-program and gnuplot" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91092 15:16:09 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:16:12 why is this happening? 15:18:56 with CFFI when i am doing a foreign-alloc of an array of cstructs can i just pass 'my-struct as the type, or do i need to do a defctype 15:19:10 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 15:20:13 Guthur: that doesn't sound right C-wise. a struct is not a pointer to a struct 15:20:59 p0a i know i'm talking about type 15:21:32 you specify the type of the element to foreign-alloc'd 15:21:54 all the examples are primitive types like :int 15:22:48 Guthur: (foreign-alloc 'your-struct :count n) should work 15:23:21 luis' thanks, thats what i was hoping for 15:24:14 How atomic is slot-value? In particular, if a thread reads, and another writes to the slot at the same time, is it guaranteed or not that the first thread does not read garbage? 15:24:24 Guthur: misunderstood you 15:24:46 p0a no probs, probably could have been a tad clearer 15:25:18 trittweiler, probably not atomic enough. Certainly not guaranteed to be in the standard. 15:25:25 trittweiler: I believe it's safe on sbcl/x86oids, and probably ppc. 15:25:35 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:25:40 trittweiler, in practice, if the class doesn't change in the middle, you should be safe. 15:26:41 mcspiff [n=user@129.173.196.55] has joined #lisp 15:26:50 Fare: what do you mean by 'class change'? 15:26:55 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:27:09 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:27:09 p0a, class redefinition, probably 15:27:25 okay 15:27:45 clhs change-class 15:27:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm 15:27:47 Most ISAs guarantee atomic aligned word-sized read/writes, so really it depends on how slot lookups are implemented. 15:28:26 Atomic within a single core, not necessarily across multiple CPUs, right? 15:28:51 pkhuong, Is it because of the unbound marker that there are no specialized clos slots? 15:28:51 Fare: if I understand correctly, this changes the class of an object, and not the class definition itself 15:28:52 nyef: no, real atomic. 15:29:00 Ah, right, missed the context. 15:29:07 is my understanding correct? 15:29:09 nyef: there may be incoherence and delay between values getting propagated, but hopefully not internal corruption of any word-sized value. 15:29:20 yeah it's about corruption 15:29:21 Yeah, that would tend towards atomic, though you're still damed for trying it. 15:29:31 s/damed/damned/ 15:30:11 nyef: lamport's bakery algorithm (: 15:30:19 p0a: change-class may involve re-allocating a new underlying instance, which may or may not cause a concurrent slot access to yield uninitialized corrupt values. 15:31:02 trittweiler: probably. I guess that in theory it's still doable. 15:31:42 pkhuong, You could maintain a boundp flag separately? 15:32:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@68-88-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:32:38 trittweiler: but that requires much more work to avoid corruption. 15:32:53 sure but specialized slots do in general 15:33:06 p0a, in general, never assume that something is thread-safe unless it has been designed specifically to be -- and PCL was designed and implemented before thread safety was on the table. 15:33:41 no. Specialised slots are still accessed with a single memory operation. With a separate flag, that's no longer the case. Making accesses lock-free (never mind wait-free) will be hard. 15:34:04 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229076010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:34:06 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219.89.104.224] has joined #lisp 15:34:32 pkhuong, But the storage space can exceed the word-size? 15:34:44 if it exceeds word-size, you lose. 15:34:57 trittweiler: not on x86-64 (: 15:35:13 well that's my point :-) 15:36:17 it can on x86? 15:36:29 Fare: complex double floats. 15:36:37 Or complexes in general, actually. 15:36:55 stored unboxed? 15:37:05 in structures. 15:37:11 Or in vectors. 15:37:39 but then, you'd have to have a specialized vector or structure with type declaration. 15:38:15 Fare: we *are* talking about specialised slots. 15:39:43 ouch. 15:40:00 on x86-64 you can atomically load such slots??? 15:40:29 SSE. 15:40:40 is it atomic at the memory level? 15:41:09 at the very least, your data may need to be aligned with the cache line. 15:41:17 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-79-213.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:42:02 I don't have the new memory model whitepaper at hand, but I'm fairly certain even unaligned accesses are atomic. 15:42:26 nice. 15:42:26 When you don't straddle cache lines, definitely. 15:44:06 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.43.44] has joined #lisp 15:47:10 -!- pjb [n=t@79.149.131.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:12 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:49:20 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.85.130] has joined #lisp 15:49:20 ... So, it turns out that there's a "personal lubricant" called "climaxima". 15:49:54 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-23-209.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:50:12 hmm... anyone here ever involved in commercial embedded project? 15:50:33 <_deepfire> p_l, /me 15:50:38 -!- voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit [Dead socket] 15:51:01 p0a pasted "sb-ext:run-program and gnuplot" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91092 15:51:01 ^ anynoe? 15:51:52 I did some embedded work back in 1998-2000, but it was on 8-bit CPUs... 15:52:10 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-39-232.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:26 heh. I'm looking for pricing help :D 15:53:09 acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has joined #lisp 15:53:30 p0a: I'm going to go with the process having completed and there being some confusion about the meaning of the :OUTPUT argument to RUN-PROGRAM, but since I don't tend to -use- R-P, I can't really help beyond that. 15:53:36 -!- kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit ["leaving"] 15:53:59 p_l: Yeah, I really can't help you there, that was my first job out of high school. 15:54:04 nyef: and :search t. 15:54:36 pkhuong: As I said, I don't use run-program. 15:54:49 nyef: I'll take a better look at the implementation 15:55:05 Sorry, documentation* 15:55:06 stipet [n=user@83.253.28.60] has joined #lisp 15:55:37 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78.72.33.106] has joined #lisp 15:55:53 Theorem 1: Open source computer math software becomes junk as implementation area approaches user interface as a limit. 15:56:02 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:57:13 nyef: The only difference with closed source is that the latter only become junkier at each release. 15:57:13 the pretty much goes for the propiertary stuff as well, albeit orders of magnitude better of course. :) 15:57:27 It's as if they never left the fixed-width terminal font era. Just lay out an approximation of the standard notation on a grid of character cells. :-/ 15:58:17 (Hence my discovery of the other meaning of the term "climaxima" while I was searching for a half-remembered interface for a certain computer algebra system.) 15:58:34 nyef: I can relate to that problem, but I can tell you that by the nature of things that won't change soon 15:58:40 I'd rather have that than Maple 11's Java-based "smart" notebook. 9 was much better. Searching in the help database got you references on the function, instead of some high school math computer-assisted tutorial. 15:59:10 nyef: there's imaxima, which renders to latex and displays the png in emacs. 15:59:26 nyef: wxmaxima can render nice equations, imaxima as well 15:59:33 Hrm... 15:59:36 and I experimented for a while with MathML generation 15:59:41 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219.89.104.224] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:00:22 Okay, those actually look decent. 16:03:32 roygbiv [n=ross@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:05:54 *nyef* looks at the output of "emerge -a maxima" and sighs. 16:06:05 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:06:27 why isn't there a function-designator type in alexandria? it could be '(and (or symbol function) (not (member null t)))... but i may miss something 16:07:06 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:15 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:07:31 nyef: are you recompiling it? 16:07:41 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 16:08:04 prxq: No, and I don't feel like trying to sort out how to make emerge work in this case. 16:08:14 <_deepfire> attila_lendvai, the problem is that you need to include (setf ...) there 16:08:20 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:08:22 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.85.130] has left #lisp 16:08:26 <_deepfire> attila_lendvai, and it suddenly becomes less practical.. 16:09:05 _deepfire, oh, right... which needs satisfies that pretty much screws up the cl typesystem 16:09:09 _deepfire, (cons (eql 'cl:setf) (cons t null)) :-) 16:09:19 minus the quote 16:09:25 nyef: maxima has some crazy build script which builds a lisp system with make 16:10:09 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-cayaxohpoluhtqrm] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:36 hrm, i'll send a mail to alexandria-devel with this eventually 16:12:02 attila_lendvai: '(and (or symbol function) (not (member null t))) is not a function designator 16:12:41 fe[nl]ix, currently i'm playing with this: '(and (or symbol function (cons (eql setf) (cons t null))) (not (member null t))) 16:12:52 extended function designators are not function designators 16:13:24 -!- trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:13:32 and to be honest, i'm ok with an approximation. what i miss is the documenting effect of a :type function-designator 16:13:55 (deftype function-designator () t) 16:14:11 and yes, i'll also read up on clhs before i send the mail... 16:14:21 also, NULL names a function, so I don't know why you're excluding it 16:14:46 I mean, other than being confused about (member nil) and null 16:15:49 oh, right, that's a confusion 16:16:04 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:16:37 it started out as (or ... (not null)) 16:16:38 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:16:40 but really, if what you want is the documentation value, go with my solution 16:16:59 if you want some minor typechecking, go with (or symbol function cons) 16:17:31 Xof, but i'd like to have it in something widely available (e.g. alexandria) and there (deftype function-designator () t) wouldn't look that good 16:22:39 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:55 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:23:00 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:23:06 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:34 trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:28 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 16:27:07 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@81.131.243.232] has quit ["Computer says no"] 16:29:07 snearch_ [n=olaf@92.229.52.227] has joined #lisp 16:29:13 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:31:00 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:31:34 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.43.44] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:04 -!- coyo is now known as coyo[schol] 16:34:15 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:27 -!- xristos [n=nx@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:34:32 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 16:37:25 -!- mcspiff [n=user@129.173.196.55] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:27 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-182-236.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:40:35 hi, i'm getting a "macro function can't be funcalled or applied" error from a function that calls one or more macros, depending on the args passed? each macro works fine when called directly, so... any ideas? 16:41:53 how do you try it? 16:42:08 (funcall (if (foop) 'macro1 'macro2) ...) ? 16:42:26 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:43:23 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:44:46 hmm, its more of a (defun foo (x) (if (> x 0) (macro1 x) (macro2 x))) => FOO followed by (foo 1) => ERROR 16:44:47 Sounds about right. I can well imagine that an implementation would complain if you attempted to use a function designator corresponding to a macro-function in funcall or apply. Not if you used the macro-function object proper, though, as that is required for macroexpansion to happen. 16:44:59 "Lisp programming is very easy once you get accustomed to it. New functions can be added "ad-hook" basis, since compilation and linking are not required. " 16:45:07 I wonder if "ad-hook" is a typo or a pun! 16:45:28 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:45:31 trittweiler: where's that from? 16:45:34 trittweiler: Go with the pun. 16:45:42 http://www.symboliccomposer.com/page_commonlisp.shtml 16:45:51 sebyte: That's... odd. Which implementation are you using? 16:45:59 linking to the big mud ball, maybe. 16:46:04 nyef: ccl 16:46:54 Sounds like a bogus transform for IF, but the CCL people might be able to give a better diagnosis. 16:47:16 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:47:57 nyef: so, in principle, there's nothing wrong with what i'm doing? 16:48:19 sebyte, if your code is accurately described by the above, it looks fine 16:50:40 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:32 trittweiler: well, the wrapper function (and the macros) are defined in a separate package but apart from that, yes, it accurately describes the code. 16:52:10 Honestly, it's more likely that you're bitten by package issues 16:52:43 check your defpackage forms, and make sure all your files have an (in-package ...) form in the beginning 16:53:48 yupp. at least my CCL IF have no problems with a macro. :) 16:53:51 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:32 trittweiler: i was doing just that and i think you may be right... thanks 16:57:12 <_3b> sebyte: make sure you define the macro before trying to use it 16:57:57 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:58:11 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:00:36 _3b: do you mean the macro definition must come before the function definition when the library is loaded into a vanilla lisp? 17:01:23 macro definitions (plural) 17:01:45 <_3b> sebyte: more about compilation than loading, but yeah 17:02:41 <_3b> if the compiler doesn't know about the macro(s) when it compiles foo, it will compile them as if they were functions, and then if you define them as macros and try to run FOO, you get an error like you described 17:03:23 _3b: very interesting... thanks 17:03:24 Doesn't SBCL give a warning about "defining FOO as a macro when it was previously assumed to be a function"? 17:04:06 <_3b> i think so, didn't actually try it on sbcl 17:04:14 ccl says "In BAR: Macro function FOO was used before it was defined." 17:04:44 That's... less explanatory. 17:05:10 -!- lispnik [n=user@adsl-75-34-100-254.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:24 less? 17:05:35 Certainly less alarming. 17:05:53 *_3b* got no complaints from ccl 17:06:07 Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-122-163.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 17:06:09 <_3b> (aside from unknown functions in the original call) 17:06:11 "assumed", to me, says "we made some decisions based on this which have just been invalidated". 17:07:18 nyef, Could also be read as "We made some decisions ... but have adapted ourselves to the new information" 17:07:27 i.e. retrospective fixup 17:07:49 Wouldn't have warned then, would have style-warned instead. 17:07:58 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:08:02 we're talking about newbies, right? 17:08:09 -!- roygbiv [n=ross@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 17:08:11 <_3b> nyef: it is a style warning already 17:08:30 Hrm. 17:08:56 <_3b> you can just redefine it as a function and the original caller works again 17:11:55 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:28 Davidbrcz [i=david@212.198.78.230] has joined #lisp 17:14:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has quit [] 17:15:42 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:16:29 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:04 ziga` [n=user@95.176.160.68] has joined #lisp 17:23:05 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:24:11 total regression time!! (defmacro foomac (arg) `(write t ,arg)) compiles fine but then (foomac "hello") borks with "incorrect keyword arguments in ("hello")"... what on earth m i am missing now? 17:25:00 <_3b> clhs write 17:25:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 17:26:44 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 17:26:48 Shamwow [n=Shamwow@128.223.20.85] has joined #lisp 17:26:58 -!- Shamwow [n=Shamwow@128.223.20.85] has left #lisp 17:29:36 clhs: ugh... ta 17:30:48 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:51 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:18 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-122-163.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:37 why does slime sometimes refuse to give you macrexpansion (C-c RET) saying simple "No expression at point."? 17:32:52 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-35-10.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:01 saying simply... 17:33:29 is there an expression at point? 17:34:05 manuel__ [n=manuel@217.230.224.144] has joined #lisp 17:34:06 then again (macroexpand-1 ...) in the repl doesn't work either.... oh what is it now.... *sigh* 17:36:51 and what are you doing? you gotta describe more if you want any help 17:38:25 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:38:47 p0a_ [n=user@athedsl-383384.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:39:41 ahaas [n=ahaas@71.59.145.125] has joined #lisp 17:42:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:42:32 mcspiff [n=user@DC437.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 17:46:27 HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 17:46:45 stassats: it's OK, i'm tired and being wound up by silly mistakes - thanks for the offer - I have to go now. 17:46:53 -!- sebyte [n=sebyte@vps203.linuxvps.org] has left #lisp 17:47:04 moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-205-041.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:45 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229076010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:48:39 -!- yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:50:00 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:50:31 -!- p0a [n=user@79.131.26.187] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:42 coyo [i=alex@144.162.133.48] has joined #lisp 17:52:42 dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 17:54:17 -!- splittist [n=David@156-220.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:16 -!- colin_ [n=colin@118-169-42-18.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:58:37 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@80.14.131.214] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:58:43 fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.76.10] has joined #lisp 17:59:26 -!- davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:53 -!- p0a_ [n=user@athedsl-383384.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 18:01:05 -!- ASau [n=user@host31-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 18:10:41 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:12:18 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:13:13 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@217.230.224.144] has quit [] 18:14:13 -!- stipet [n=user@83.253.28.60] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:14:53 Hmm...is there an advantage of using Allergro CL over SBCL for anything? 18:15:23 <_3b> access to libs that only run on allegro? 18:15:29 is it for /you/ you mean? it's not like there isn't pros and cons to both. 18:16:03 Better support for ms windows? 18:16:12 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 18:16:14 I was just randomly browsing a bit and was curious is about all. 18:16:22 more official commerical support? 18:16:54 Funny how out of 4 responses, 3 are phrased like questions to a question :) 18:16:54 Not that you can't hire some of the SBCL developers for commercial support... 18:17:28 as the commercial support for allegro is miles worse than the free support for sbcl, i don't think that's a valid reason 18:17:41 You're looking for criteria by which to make a judgement, we're suggesting possible criteria for your evaluation. 18:17:46 <_3b> TDT: that is because some might not consider those advantages 18:17:55 ErikaHayley [n=ErikaHay@adsl-1-7-246.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:04 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@128.237.157.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:11 i guess the main reason to use it is for allegrograph, allegrostore, and the cross platform graphics 18:18:33 <_3b> yeah, things like that were what i was thinking of 18:18:52 *_3b* doesn't need those, so can't definitively say that is an advantage though :) 18:19:01 clearly we should be charging for free support 18:19:07 um, I know what I mean 18:19:11 But all lisps have cross-platform graphics, provided that your target platform has an X server. 18:19:36 -!- liron` [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:46 liron` [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:54 so cross-platform graphics, but not crossplatform graphics that anyone would necessarily want to use, then :) 18:20:08 gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.81.137] has joined #lisp 18:21:26 indeed X is a lot of broken design 18:21:35 *_3b* wishes flash VM had better error messages :/ 18:21:45 billitch: In what way? 18:21:49 [and good evening everyone] 18:22:05 I think I'll stick to using SBCL, heh. not that I was really contemplating using anything else anyways. 18:22:32 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:23:40 in the way that it is only really well designed for the mainframe era of computing systems 18:23:51 beach: slow? inconsistent interactivity? obscure and generally 1980ish? :) 18:24:17 what are you talking about? emacs works well on it 18:24:22 beach: ever tried issuing commands to an X11 server ? 18:24:48 *Xof* forsees a bad end to this "conversation" 18:24:50 [and good evening too =] 18:24:52 billitch: You're complaining about the wire protocol? 18:25:05 hypno: Er, it's 1980ish because that's when it was designed. That doesn't make the design broken. 18:25:35 billitch: I believe they are called "requests", no? 18:25:36 (we're so lucky that there are all these highly-informed people to tell us about X11. Next there'll be people telling us that lisp is so 1970s and besides is clearly broken because it only uses one kind of grouping punctuation) 18:26:04 whatever their name they are only a bad substitute for html ;) 18:26:13 (Hrm... network-transparent application front-ends? Hey, isn't this AJAX with less smarts on the user-interface side?) 18:26:33 The main complaint I hear about X11 is just that there's too many round trips 18:26:54 dlowe: And that's part of the design? 18:27:20 beach: uh, yeah. The X11 specification is intentionally only a protocol. 18:27:36 Round trips? What? 18:27:59 operations that require a client wait for a server response and vice-versa 18:28:41 But... there -aren't- that many of those. 18:29:02 It was precisely designed to allow the opposite as I recall. 18:29:03 shrug. The nx protocol is subjectively much zippier. 18:29:20 Hard to tell whether that's the implementation or the design, of course 18:30:20 well wouldnt any modern windowing system focus on getting closer graphical applications and hardware together ? 18:30:46 hard to tell what "design" is supposed to mean in this context. how do the windows gui substrate differs in design? the OS X? are we talking about programming APIs, protocols or user design? i suspect nobody knows. :) 18:31:02 I'm talking about wire protocols 18:31:04 billitch: You complained about the *design* of X11. How could they possibly have foreseen what modern hardware would look like. 18:31:23 how i said their design was only good for back in these times 18:31:39 i'm not complaining =) 18:31:40 time for X12, perhaps? :) 18:31:45 hehe 18:31:49 ... wait, did you just say that you're from the future? 18:31:54 billitch: First you said "a lot of broken design". I would have agreed with "not quite modern". 18:32:14 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:32:17 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:19 ok i was a bit complaining that no better free alternative has come up 18:32:42 billitch: Wow! Broken design with nothing better available! 18:32:53 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:55 *dlowe* has heard that one a few times before. 18:32:58 billitch: well, we had BeOS for a while. that had a slick UI design. :) 18:33:18 billitch: Since you seem to know a lot about the design of such systems, go right ahead and design something better. 18:33:19 hypno: You misspelled "sick". 18:33:25 hmm notice the word free in my argument ? 18:33:32 *nyef* shudders at the memory of BeOS UI programming. 18:33:40 i believe there are much better designs but they are not free 18:33:41 yay, BeOs! 18:33:42 billitch: the world is waiting for your ultra-cool contribution 18:33:48 hehe =) 18:33:49 s/BeOs/BeOS/. That was a lot of fun. 18:34:02 billitch: that wasn't meant to be funny. put up or... 18:34:06 The UI of BeOS was/is extremely snappy, at least. 18:34:18 i know =P 18:34:23 nearly survived to the present day, too! 18:34:32 but you take X11 a bit too much at heart, no ? 18:34:34 I wonder why. app_server had magic powers? 18:34:41 (Apple looked at buying it as a last-ditch alternative to inviting Jobs back into the fold) 18:34:55 yup, Fearless Leader (aka JLG) asked for too much. 18:35:00 tic: Each window had its own independently-schedulable message-handling thread. 18:35:14 nyef, but is that really all that takes to make things responsible? 18:35:27 billitch: I'm just not interested in a bunch of bitching with no will to improve the situation 18:35:42 The world's got plenty of bitching, but it needs more code 18:35:49 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 18:35:51 well i still can say i would be encline to contribute if something good was forming 18:36:02 tic: Thus, if one window was off handling some message for a while, no other window would be affected, in theory. 18:36:05 billitch: I have great admiration for people capable of coming up with such a design. I don't think I would be able to do that myself. 18:36:07 billitch: contribute by designing something better. 18:36:25 billitch: something without X11's obvious deficiencies 18:36:34 but as my trolling seems to bring no defender of a better alternative i have to abort my criticism 18:36:42 nyef, yeah, I know. I was thinking about the OS responsiveness in general, but maybe that was a large part of it. 18:37:04 i never said i could do better, but i whish i could get something no so distributed for my poor single desktop computer 18:37:26 nyef, unless you did stupid things like redirecting everything passed in to BHandler::MessageReceived(BMessage*) to the app's MessageReceived, i.e. making it single-threaded. *cough* Opera 3.62. :-) 18:37:26 You said it was a broken design, implying that you knew what a non-broken design looked like 18:37:45 s/BHandler/BWindow. 18:37:49 to balance further i can say i appreciate a lot having it and using instead of ... getty ^^ 18:38:13 *tic* was once working on an improved version of Bethon, as a school project, even. 18:38:40 yes considering we're almost all using it on modern computers its quite broken design... 18:38:50 billitch, what is broken about it? 18:38:58 can you point to specific items? 18:39:01 billitch, i think this is what Gnome is doing with Clutter .. (i.e., direct access to hardware (opengl) wrt. rendering of widgets, and stuff) .. i'm not sure if that's what you mean, though 18:39:03 *dlowe* gives up. 18:39:14 *dlowe* goes back to coding. 18:39:24 lnostdal: sounds interesting 18:39:27 dlowe, don't do it .. it'll be a mistake or "not good enough" anyway 18:39:38 lnostdal: I know, but I can't help myself :D 18:39:42 heh :) 18:40:35 -!- jleija [n=jleija@74.243.224.205] has quit ["leaving"] 18:40:44 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC437.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:36 <_3b> hmm, wonder if i should try to cut down the amount of debugging junk i print, or try to fix slime so printing too much doesn't break it :/ 18:42:13 voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #lisp 18:42:15 -!- Guest94084 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:42:38 dlowe: X11 was designed around client server with a lot of possibilities but maybe too much for a simple desktop platform ? 18:42:51 billitch, again, what parts of the design are you talking about? 18:43:04 billitch, and in what way do they make X not usable as a desktop platform? 18:43:33 yes it is but does every ubuntu user need to run windowed remote apps ? 18:43:43 they don't. they are run locally. 18:43:54 communication is handled through shared memory. 18:43:57 <_3b> ah, maybe it printed enough before it broke, and i can continue ignoring the problem :p 18:43:57 the code is there, and vulnerable 18:44:12 and run as root 18:44:16 what is vulnerable? 18:44:49 Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:51 hiho 18:45:02 well i dont care for remote windowing on my computer, and i cant take it away.. 18:45:32 but that's plain non-lisp ranting, sorry ^^; 18:45:38 if this is the problem i don't see why you say "html is better" (not directly quote, but i guess this is what you meant, sort of; or where you joking? :P) .. if anything, web stuff is even more focused on accessing stuff remotely 18:45:55 i am looking for an advanced lisp book and found "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Guide to Clos" and "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol", which should i take? 18:46:01 or are there any other suggestions? 18:46:11 Russel-Athletic, i'd go for "Practical Common Lisp" 18:46:12 yes modern computing leaves windowing to simgle computer, the rest has specific, higher level protocols for it 18:46:15 Russel-Athletic, the first one is good to learn CLOS, the second is very advanced on MOP. Do you know CLOS well? 18:46:17 Russel-Athletic: do you already know clos well? 18:46:33 well i read the section in practical common lisp 18:46:37 wait, no .. ignore me .. sorry .. i missed the "advanced" part :P 18:46:38 but not much after this 18:46:59 Russel-Athletic: i'd read Keene first 18:47:15 well, that's what i actually did, haven't read AMOP yet 18:47:16 ok thanks 18:48:23 brown [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 18:48:41 security issues aside, i think my main issues with X11 has been as a user. depending on how you look at it, perhaps most of that isn't to blame X11 for, but i found dealing with other UIes a lot easier both in setup and in making use of the hardware. there is also the many copy/paste buffers in X11 (which can be a source of frustration), obscure or "odd" configuration management, shitty fonts (or you need to put in a lot of work to get good fonts), slowe 18:48:51 -!- brown is now known as Guest48442 18:48:53 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:56 dlowe: i'm not bitching but if you came up with this design right now for a modern, non-distributed os platform i would say it's broken 18:49:20 with /that/ said, X11 and a good window manager, is just fine for unix/linux sysadminning or pumping out code in Emacs. it's probably even preferable for those tasks. 18:50:57 -!- acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has quit ["leaving"] 18:51:13 jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has joined #lisp 18:52:16 CL-Python is pretty cool 18:53:26 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93.81.226.206] has quit [] 18:54:04 hypno: that's more integration than design but let's hope ubuntu will do something about it 18:55:44 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:56:50 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:57:38 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:58:07 billitch: integration? i consider a product in its complete to be its design. arguing about some peculiar detail is loosing the overall picture. 18:58:32 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:59 yeah well it looks like they spent it all on network interaction 18:59:12 something like http://www.directfb.org/ looks quite minimalistic 19:00:00 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:01:30 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:03:02 billitch: ah, heh. cool. 19:03:36 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 19:04:14 hypno: arguable but they probably never specified which font each vendor would include 19:04:53 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-45-82-65-152-63.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:04 then we could say they underdesigned integration 19:06:23 and (in my view) overdesigned protocol 19:06:38 directfb is horible. 19:07:18 tic: in which specific point(s) ? ;) 19:07:43 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:07:44 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:07:45 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:07:47 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 19:07:50 Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:06 billitch, the API in general. 19:08:09 well, arguably, they open the doors for integration as much as possible: the UI part is up to the window manager and has nothing to do with X11 as such, afaik. 19:08:09 but who cares? to each his own. 19:08:18 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.67.155.88] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:25 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:57 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 19:11:25 tic: worse than x11 ? 19:12:48 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:14:09 -!- Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit ["leaving"] 19:14:44 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-10-107.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:28 tic: what's so wrong with directfb's api ? it looks only as bad as a regular objects-and-interfaces-in-C api... 19:15:37 gruseom [n=daniel@h-64-105-143-250.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:36 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:36 19:28:36 -!- names: ccl-logbot alinp lisppaste mcspiff spilman HET2 acieroid luis foom schme peddie_ qebab gruseom Nshag antoszka billitch Dodek rsynnott drewc puchacz syamajala ASau jleija |Soulman| Guest48442 voidpointer Jasko2 gonzojive_ liron` ErikaHayley lhz fiveop dnolen coyo moah ahaas loxs dysinger ziga` kejsaren Davidbrcz Lycurgus xristos sayyestolife ruediger slyrus_ grouzen snearch_ pr trittweiler ikki Sumpen legumbre bobbysmith007 ryepup drwho Athas 19:28:36 -!- names: hugod kuwabara borism_ pavelludiq c|mell plan9 blackened` TDT LiamH dmiles_afk ignas 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19:32:21 mutew [n=mutew@128.220.251.38] has joined #lisp 19:33:37 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-76.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:35:05 -!- skeptomai [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Getting off stoned server - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 19:35:10 skeptomai [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:48 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Broken pipe] 19:38:23 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:38:31 milanj [n=milan@109.93.9.251] has joined #lisp 19:39:34 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@92.229.52.227] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:39:49 <_3b> hmm, (loop with nil = 0 ...) => caught STYLE-WARNING: The variable #:LOOP-IGNORE-39208 is defined but never used 19:42:13 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:47:09 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:13 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 19:49:46 _Pb [n=jcw@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 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20:04:55 m4dnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 20:05:19 Can someone figure out why one would get this indentation with Emacs: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/check-sudoku-emacs.jpg ? 20:05:42 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:26 <_3b> which part? 20:06:41 cmeow_ [i=cmeow@207.192.71.173] has joined #lisp 20:07:20 _3b: In loop, where loop keywords are not aligned, and the second expression after do is indented 2 positions. 20:07:22 Borbus_ [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:23 qeb`away [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 20:07:27 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:07:29 I really need to find a good way to recompile every fasl file once I upgrae sbcl...or maybe just remove and recompile on demand. Little version updates from ubuntu really are annoying to hit "retry recompile" 50 billion times to load larger libraries. 20:07:30 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:07:41 beach: probably these variables: lisp-loop-keyword-indentation, 20:07:42 lisp-loop-forms-indentation 20:07:47 -!- hjpark [n=user@119.207.211.20] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:50 -!- Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:50 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:51 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 20:07:54 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:54 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:56 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 20:07:56 -!- cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Dead socket] 20:07:56 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:07:56 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Dead socket] 20:08:02 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:08:09 hjpark [n=user@119.207.211.20] has joined #lisp 20:08:14 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Broken pipe] 20:08:14 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 20:08:19 TDT: delete all of your stale fasls when you upgrade 20:08:41 prxq [n=mommer@g227085248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:45 beach: (setq lisp-simple-loop-indentation 2 lisp-loop-keyword-indentation 6 lisp-loop-forms-indentation 6) 20:08:49 sctb: Yeah, woudln't mind having a script that automatically recompiles everything too eventually. 20:08:50 <_3b> TDT`: check cliki asdf page, i think it has something for recompiling them auytomatically 20:09:00 beach: Put that into your ~/.emacs, or tell the one you're concerned about to put it 20:09:13 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:41 I didn't express myself very well. I don't want that indentation. And someone seems to have gotten it without doing anything particular. I am wondering how that could happen. 20:10:08 beach: He's using the default emacs configuration. 20:10:13 beach: I told you a better configuration. 20:10:14 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:10:50 tcr: Ah, so I need to figure out what's in my .emacs and not in his? 20:11:13 You probably have exactly these bits in your .emacs because I told you so in past :-) 20:11:22 or someone else for that matter 20:11:24 I have (setq lisp-indent-function 'common-lisp-indent-function) in mine. 20:11:38 tcr: I only wish that indentation would work for actual keyword keywords... 20:11:40 That's for IF 20:12:04 tcr: No, I don't have those lines in my .emacs. 20:12:25 <_3b> beach: do you load the slime indentation contrib? 20:12:42 Nope, but maybe I should. 20:12:46 sctb: Huh I didn't know it doesn't work for those :-) 20:14:02 I'll ask him to send me his .emacs file. 20:14:16 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:49 beach: Perhaps you're using the slime-indentation contrib, as _3b said -- or perhaps some very old version of Emacs 20:15:48 22.2.1 20:15:49 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@75.52.254.21] has joined #lisp 20:16:21 Ah, but I am loading a file that might be old: cl-indent.el 20:16:26 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus 20:16:58 This is probably a leftover from many years ago. 20:17:54 no actually you're probably loading an improved cl-indent.el that is also the core of the slime-indentation contrib 20:18:12 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EE1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:17 OK, that might be it. Thanks! 20:19:32 beach: But really, you should tell your someone to either use the slime-indentation contrib, or put this setq into his .emacs 20:19:48 tcr: OK. 20:20:55 did you resolve whether X11 was Good, Bad or Ugly? 20:21:34 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:58 Krystof: I dropped it myself. 20:22:15 Krystof, all at once, really. 20:22:34 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:22:41 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:22:43 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 20:23:09 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:30 beach: you dropped X11? Moved to windows? 20:23:46 heh! No, not yet. 20:23:56 ... yet? 20:24:05 tcr: slime-indentation seems to indent keyword loop keywords properly, neat! 20:24:42 sctb: Unfortunately I don't like its indentation style for CASE etc 20:25:55 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:25:55 tcr: hmm. what does your slime-indentation-fu do? 20:26:35 now i'm curious; there are two indentation contribs .. which one should i go for if i want to try this out? (uh, perhaps the `fancy' contrib already includes it.. *checking*) 20:28:21 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:29:31 -!- mutew [n=mutew@128.220.251.38] has quit ["leaving"] 20:33:32 dto1 [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:36 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:35:54 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:16 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-132.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:38:59 lispnik [n=user@adsl-75-34-100-254.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:38 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 20:41:49 francogrex [n=user@205.87-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:42:35 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:42:45 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.67.155.88] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:59 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:04 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:44:32 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:46:36 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-205-041.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:50:13 minion, memo for tcr: profiler output - http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/tmp/elp-results.txt 20:50:13 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 20:50:13 hefner, memo from tcr: Try CVS HEAD; Slime should be considerably less sluggish. 20:50:21 heh, nice. 20:51:47 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 20:52:45 hrm.... i wanted to try the new slime, so i decided to darcs pull the clbuild archive as a start.. it said 56 patches. 13 hours later, it's 1/2 way done. I think giving up and darcs getting it from scratch is probably a better idea at this point. 20:53:23 *cough* git migration 20:54:07 ya, my personal stuff is in git now, for just that reason. 20:54:32 yup. instant commits/merges/(updates) is nice. 20:54:41 dunno, that sounds about the same as trying to git pull over HTTP 20:55:18 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 20:55:24 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h-64-105-143-250.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:55:35 Greetings Lispers. 20:55:35 tmh, memo from froydnj: what's the bug in single-float reading in SBCL? 20:55:38 isn't the speed issues w/ darcs about actually applying the patches once they've retrieved, rather than pulling them over the 'net? 20:55:59 -!- _Pb [n=jcw@75.131.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:02 boscop [n=unknown@g230109070.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:03 froydnj: herep 20:56:30 tic: yeah, exactly... the patches got here in ~20 seconds. 20:56:50 what makes a language a lisp dialect? is a language that has lispy syntax automatically a lisp dialect? 20:57:01 13 hours of 100% CPU use later, and i'm pulling clbuild from lnostdal's git 20:57:19 even if it has objects and is not only functional 20:57:23 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 20:57:27 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:39 boscop, Common Lisp has objects and is not only functional. 20:57:41 boscop: do you think CL is a lisp dialect? 20:57:42 hmm, what makes lisp lisp? 20:57:59 homoiconicity(sp?) 20:58:09 francogrex: i'm always careful to craft the answer to that in such a way the scheme is not included :P 20:58:22 tic, drewc: yea, but when is a given language a lisp dialect? 20:58:25 breeding 20:58:25 francogrex: The lambda-nature, of course! 20:58:53 boscop: when is a song a jazz song? 20:59:03 boscop: I don't think there is wide agreement on that. 20:59:11 boscop, I tend to think of it as when data is code is data, but that's likely not to be the correct definition. 20:59:12 ok 20:59:27 minion: memo for froydnj : My mistake, LispWorks will read 1.2345677 and print 1.2345677 while SBCL prints 1.2345676. But, INTEGER-DECODE-FLOAT for 1.2345677 returns the same values as 1.2345676, so LispWorks is doing something extra. 20:59:27 Remembered. I'll tell froydnj when he/she/it next speaks. 20:59:29 mutew [n=mutew@128.220.251.38] has joined #lisp 20:59:32 tic: code is data is lists? 20:59:46 drewc, I guess, if you go by the actual /definition/ of LISP. 21:00:00 Eko [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:26 boscop: This is why it is strange when someone comes here and asks if there is any statically-typed Lisp dialect, or something similar. 21:00:40 typed scheme! 21:00:46 drewc, but you could maybe envision another way of representing data, without lists. although, that representation would probably end up being a subset of lists in some way or the other. Maybe when there exists a function that lets you transforms your code into lists? Dunno. 21:01:00 You could say the AST of a C program is Lisp, then. 21:01:23 tic: could you? Is AST a native datatype of C? 21:01:41 yay. the nice man from UPS just dropped off 5 2 TB drives. 21:01:44 nyef: so that's the distinctive feature of lisp that is found nowhere else in any other language? 21:01:53 Does anyone know of some time tracking software in lisp? Generating a client invoice today and again was disappointed with my billable hours. (Too much time in#lisp? :-) I couldn't find any and have not been super enthused about web based options. 21:01:54 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:57 timetrap [n=jkern@pool-108-2-110-22.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:08 slyrus: Should last you several weeks! 21:02:08 francogrex: i might argue that it's QUOTE 21:02:12 francogrex: The lambda-nature is everywhere, merely expressed to a greater or lesser degree. 21:02:15 I need some SBCL help. I think my install is broken. 21:02:17 tmh: org-mode 21:02:19 heh 21:02:23 drewc, you could dump gcc's output! 21:02:32 But I'm too newb to know why. 21:02:36 drewc: does org-mode have a timer also? 21:02:56 drewc: I think it's LIST 21:03:07 sctb: yes, I use it for both time tracking and then publishing the a report of where that time went. 21:03:10 timetrap: Which leads to the inevitable questions of "how did you install it" and "what are the symptoms"? 21:03:19 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:32 drewc, Ruby has :, which is sort-of a quote. 21:03:33 francogrex: LIST is pretty damn easy to write in 99% of programming languages... QUOTE, OTOH, not so much. 21:03:34 francogrex, Python has [ ] 21:03:39 drewc: very cool, and not surprising :) 21:03:48 drewc: Alright, you've convinced me to actually spend some time looking at org-mode, I've been avoiding it. 21:03:51 drewc, so, symbols then? 21:04:08 drewc, because quote is just an arbitrary decision for a hash. 21:04:08 tmh: it's worth it. 21:04:19 tmh: now you can waste all of next months billable hours messing with org-mode ;) 21:04:21 tic: yeah, i suppose symbols are a big part of it. 21:04:21 I can't even do asdf-install:install 21:04:24 http://pastebin.com/m4c1fce2c 21:04:31 ^ Can someone take a look? 21:04:49 nyef: via a package (archlinux) 21:05:00 I think LET is rather Lisp-ish too. I miss it in Python and C. 21:05:20 timetrap: select the 'continue' restart? 21:05:29 timetrap: That... doesn't look like a problem with your SBCL install. 21:05:38 sctb: Hah, catch 22. 21:05:39 drewc: It just crashes on me. 21:05:49 tic: LET is just LAMBDA , and LAMBDA is certainly needed in a lisp 21:05:55 I suck can someone tell me wtf is going on? 21:06:08 (require 'asdf-install) 21:06:13 timetrap: crashes? that's very odd, i've rarely seen sbcl crash. 21:06:30 unhandled condition in --disable-debugger mode, quitting 21:06:32 tic: C has let. 21:06:32 sellout [n=greg@75.25.126.88] has joined #lisp 21:06:41 ^ That's the last line. 21:06:43 timetrap: why are you running with the debugger disabled? 21:06:47 timetrap: Why are you running in --disable-debugger, then? 21:06:53 it's a package. Dunno 21:07:03 timetrap: are you running gobolinux or some other weird source-based distro? 21:07:03 i just type sbcl 21:07:06 In all the time I've used SBCL, I've only seen the ldb prompt once, when I exhausted all memory on my machine. 21:07:12 timetrap: rule number 1: don't use distro packages 21:07:13 ... Once again, we fall back on the "vendor packages tend to do stupid things". 21:07:14 archlinux. no it's a binary. 21:07:23 drewc: o_0 21:07:27 Oh right, arch is the distro that builds that way. 21:07:28 drewc: kay. 21:07:36 timetrap: install a binary from sbcl.org, use that and clbuild rather than asdf-isntall, and you won't have to come back for a while :) 21:07:36 pkhuong: huh? 21:07:48 timetrap: file a bug report with your distribution. SBCL doesn't work that way by default. 21:07:56 minion: tell timetrap about clbuild 21:07:56 timetrap: look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 21:07:58 pkhuong: That's what I was thinking. 21:08:17 pkhuong, int x=0; {int x=42; /* do something with x */ } blocks? 21:08:21 *timetrap* Deep sigh. 21:08:29 Not crazy after all. 21:08:46 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-35-10.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:08:50 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-80-10.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:08:59 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A632F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:13 tmh: i get to ldb all the time actually... i'm that bad a programmer perhaps :) 21:09:42 drewc: Generating that much data? 21:09:44 anyone here uses antiweb? 21:10:08 tmh: yeah, among other things. Web applications that don't prune sessions in time is another one that bites me. 21:10:16 tmh: you can land in ldb quite a lot with ffi stuff 21:10:30 *nyef* gets to LDB more often than he'd like, but uses compiler hacking as an excuse. 21:10:55 tmh: i actually deliver with ldb disabled so a crash is a crash and my service monitor can restart the lisp. 21:11:37 prxq: When you get into ldb using ffi, is it usually something you can fix on the lisp side or something on the foreign side that you have no control over? 21:12:07 -!- Eko [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:12:51 Eko [n=eko@c-98-242-74-171.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:00 Note that disabling LDB from within a running SBCL is quite possible. 21:13:16 <_3b> timetrap: http://bugs.archlinux.org/task/16761?string=sbcl 21:13:18 tmh: well, both. And sometimes I have some control on the foreign side. 21:13:38 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.86.186] has joined #lisp 21:13:49 nyef: indeed, i do it at start-up... i think it was Xach who showed me how 21:13:55 <_3b> timetrap: also, use slime instead of running sbcl directly :) 21:14:05 So, the package I'm using was compiled wrong? 21:14:13 Mmm... I added it to lisppaste at one point. 21:14:16 *timetrap* has a good sbcl binary running now 21:14:39 the --disable-debugger flag? 21:15:06 No, disabling the low-level debugger. 21:15:09 hi 21:15:31 Gah, I just read the link thanks _3b 21:15:38 Cool. 21:15:43 Essentially, having the lisp-level debugger pop up is not undesirably, but having the low-level debugger pop up sucked horribly. 21:15:43 Thanks everyone! 21:15:53 is it documented how to disable ldb? 21:15:58 s/undesireably/undesireable/ 21:16:10 nyef: having exit on every mistake sucks horribly. 21:16:11 adeht: Possibly not. It involves alien-funcall of a runtime function. 21:16:25 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 21:16:29 voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #lisp 21:16:55 timetrap: Indeed. 21:17:36 adeht: (sb-alien:alien-funcall (sb-alien:extern-alien "disable_lossage_handler" (function sb-alien:void))) 21:17:53 I see, thanks 21:17:57 is anyone interested in a lisp-to-javascript-compiler? 21:18:06 Ragnaroek: you mean like parenscript? 21:18:07 Ragnaroek: Like parenscript? 21:18:08 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:18:13 Hi 21:18:21 Hello Sikander. 21:18:31 minion: tell Ragnaroek about parenscript 21:18:32 Ragnaroek: please look at parenscript: Parenscript is a translator from a small Lispy language to JavaScript. http://www.cliki.net/parenscript 21:18:44 note that that's not longer an accurate discription... 21:19:20 drewc: small? lispy? 21:19:26 the maintainers decided to make it a full blown cl->js compiler, even though their users pleaded otherwise 21:19:29 Is fare-csv a good csv library? 21:19:34 or is there "better" 21:19:38 LiamH: Is there already a project for gsll-related utils somewhere? Like slicing and such? 21:19:39 drewc: I don't think that's quite correct 21:19:45 timetrap: i've been using fare-csv for 6 years or so. 21:19:52 drewc: Is it fare? 21:19:59 Sikander: yes, but it's not public yet. 21:20:04 no, it's Fare 21:20:18 drewc: Ah. but not FARE? 21:20:32 no, i mean a real compiler 21:20:36 LiamH: Ah. I had some contributions for the fft's, similar to fftshift and fftfreq in numpy. 21:20:39 not something like parenscript 21:21:02 timetrap: actually, it's Faré 21:21:15 sctb: how is that not correct? 21:21:21 Ragnaroek: Parenscript is a compiler, so what do you mean? 21:21:38 Ragnaroek: how is ps not a 'real compiler'? do you know what a compiler _is_? 21:21:59 Okay, next stupid FFT question: is the imaginary part of a coefficient the phase, or is the phase obtained by converting the complex number to polar coordinates and grabbing the angle? 21:22:03 drewc: touché 21:22:04 Sikander: OK. I think that would be in a different category. For the time being at least I'm OK with checking that in to GSLL proper. 21:22:21 nyef: The latter. 21:22:25 drewc: it's certainly not a full-blown CL->JS compiler, though more recent features like lexical scoping make the translation less straight-forward 21:22:39 sctb: it's aiming towards being such. 21:22:46 LiamH: Ok, will do, thanks. 21:22:53 (and you mean dynamic scoping, it has always had lexical scopeing) 21:23:13 And then the amount of "energy" for a given coefficient is also obtained from the polar coordinate version? 21:23:13 <_3b> drewc: probably lisp style lexical instead of JS style 21:23:30 nyef: The absolute value of it. 21:23:37 sctb: they added FUNCALL FFS... turned it into a lisp-2, and have stated they are aiming for a full cl->js compiler... i don't see how it doesn't fit the bill 21:23:48 nyef: er, `energy' might not be right. 21:23:57 Yeah, might not. 21:23:59 drewc: FUNCALL does nothing 21:24:07 (also note that we'll be releasing a fork that goes back to being a simple sexp syntax for JS soon enough) 21:24:12 Sikander: I'm uncertain of what to do in the long run, but we'll figure it out as the software accumulates. The utilities I'm thinking of will go "under" GSLL, i.e. will need to be loaded before GSLL. What you're talking about goes "over" it. 21:24:12 I'm operating so far out of my depth here it's not funny. 21:24:13 drewc: and it's certainly not a JS-2... 21:24:28 my lisp has dynamic scope 21:24:37 <_3b> full cl->js and simple sexp wrapper both sound like good things to have 21:24:42 nyef: The absolute value is the amplitude of the spectrum. 21:24:45 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:24:49 *_3b* doesn't like the current parenscript middle ground though 21:24:58 nyef: `amplitude' is better. 21:25:01 _3b: agreed, and agreed 21:25:02 (technically, the energy is most likely to be the square of the magnitude of the complex number) 21:25:11 yeah 21:25:15 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 21:25:19 -!- voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:25:20 LiamH: Ah, yes. What I'm thinking about are not gsll utilities in the sense of utilities _for_ gsll, but utilities to make use of gsll. 21:25:24 Okay, so the pretty pictures are based on the polar coordinates rather than the real+imaginary version? 21:25:38 demmeln [n=Adium@94.216.64.40] has joined #lisp 21:25:38 nyef: Sounds right. 21:25:39 -!- mutew [n=mutew@128.220.251.38] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:25:45 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 21:25:53 here is a demo program written with it: http://www.defmacro.de/acheron/demos/tm/TM.html 21:26:02 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:26:16 and here is the source: http://www.defmacro.de/acheron/demos/tm/TM.lisp 21:26:38 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:26:49 Okay, I guess the next step is to try it on a few samples and see what I get... 21:27:20 Sikander: Right, I think what you're talking about is very interesting, just a different category. Ultimately I think it might go into another system, but for now just put it in GSLL. You should also mention it in the index.html documentation because those functions (which I presume won't be defmfuns) will not show up in gsl-lookup, the only detailed documentation I have at this point. 21:27:23 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:27:36 _3b: I certainly get your point. I think the middle-ground is caused by still wanting to generate readable JS (gensyms aside, and generated loop code isn't too readable), but still be functional enough to be able to write JS in a subset of CL rather than a small lispy wrapper. The small lispy wrapper is still valuable, so it's good that drewc will release that 21:28:00 Ragnaroek: yet another Toy Lisp? :). They are fun to do, i suppose. 21:28:33 so ./clbuild install fare-csv won't work 21:28:35 warning: no dependencies for fare-csv found 21:28:35 Error: cannot download unknown project fare-csv 21:29:10 And there are no url options that I can see when I run clbuild fare-csv 21:29:17 it wasn't fun to do, it was my master-thesis 21:29:24 And there are no url options that I can see when I run clbuild help (I mean) 21:29:35 LiamH: Ok. I think you should know that I'm more or less trying to create an environment, built around gsll, to read, process, plot and write data (specifically, data from my experiment). I was wondering if there were plans for a more structured environment like that. 21:29:47 timetrap: that's not how clbuild works... rtfm maybe? 21:29:54 <_3b> timetrap: you can add a url to my-projects in clbuild dir (see projects file for format) 21:30:10 drewc: ./clbuild install , no? 21:30:13 Ragnaroek: you didn't have fun building a toy lisp? 21:30:22 drewc: If that's not how it works then I am confused. 21:30:31 Sikander: Absolutely, I'm working on that very actively these days (hence the reason for no progress on FFT tests). 21:30:32 drewc: It says projects on cliki. 21:30:39 timetrap: yes, if [part you don't understand because you didn't RTFM] 21:30:45 drewc: and fare-csv is on cliki 21:30:55 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:31:01 drewc: what did I miss when I read tfm ? 21:31:42 LiamH: Heh... Yeah, I didn't progress on that either. I have been putting some time into the font issue (vertical y-labels, dammit!) but haven't gotten very far. This thing called "work" keeps interfering 21:31:43 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:46 it's not a toy lisp 21:31:59 frontiers [n=frontier@79.160.22.139] has joined #lisp 21:32:10 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@85-130-6-120.2073243754.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:32:19 timetrap: clbuild/doc/index.html <---- TFM, R it. 21:32:36 Sikander: yeah, me too. But tomorrow's a holiday, so I expect to do some GSLL work then. 21:32:40 Ragnaroek: oh? what is it then? 21:33:03 drewc: meh. (asdf:install 'fare-csv) worked just fine. 21:33:07 tell me 21:33:14 LiamH: Ah, you lucky Americans, get to over-eat... 21:33:28 drewc: and all clbuild does (right now) is make me more confused. 21:33:29 Sikander: Or over-code 21:33:36 *timetrap* is off to the races. 21:33:39 THANKS! 21:33:48 <_3b> Ragnaroek: is there any information about your compiler available? 21:34:15 LiamH: Hmmm... yes... 21:34:40 not yet, before I will do that I wanted to know if anybody is interested in it 21:34:48 -!- timetrap [n=jkern@pool-108-2-110-22.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:35:16 Ragnaroek: how are we to know if you don't release any information about it? 21:35:34 <_3b> Ragnaroek: yeah, hard to say, but sounds interesting 21:35:39 Ragnaroek: what makes it different from the other lisp->js compilers out there? 21:36:15 drewc: Presumably, the masters thesis. 21:36:55 I tried to make it close to Common Lisp 21:37:07 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:08 most of the other compilers are compiling scheme 21:37:35 Ragnaroek: i thought you said it was dynamically scoped? (And parenscript is very much CL, moreso lately then ever) 21:38:07 it has dynamic scope, but also lexical 21:38:08 like cl 21:39:01 Ragnaroek: what kind of variable does a toplevel setq create? 21:39:30 oh, i made some extensions there... 21:40:01 (setq *x* ...) is dynamic 21:40:38 (setq x ...) is lexical 21:40:53 the * is mandatory for special vars 21:40:53 global lexical? 21:41:07 Ragnaroek anything about it online? 21:41:53 no, not yet 21:41:58 Ragnaroek: does it have the condition system? 21:42:06 no 21:42:11 CLOS? 21:42:16 no 21:43:17 catch/throw? 21:43:18 <_3b> well, it at least has packages :) 21:43:21 it has native functions, which can be defined for every supported webbrowser type 21:43:39 drewc to be fair if it had CLOS it would be CL 21:43:41 no catch/throw 21:44:03 packages are not implemented yet :) 21:44:04 ... This is sounding more and more toy-like. 21:44:05 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.76.10] has quit ["humhum"] 21:44:05 Guthur: does that make Scheme a CL? 21:44:19 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:44:21 the CL in CLOS stands for common lisp i thought 21:44:26 Ragnaroek: so, what's the difference between a toy lisp and a masters thesis beyond naming? 21:44:29 <_3b> Ragnaroek: ah, looked like it did package stuff from the js source 21:44:30 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75.149.208.121] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 21:44:34 Guthur: and Tiny-CLOS? 21:44:56 define toy lisp 21:45:01 pls 21:45:04 Guthur: somewhere i have an implementation of CLOS for javascript :) 21:45:06 mutew [n=mutew@128.220.251.38] has joined #lisp 21:45:33 <_3b> drewc: other than psos ? 21:45:34 oh so it reuses the letters, doesn't mean Common Lisp Object System, a bit confusing 21:46:01 Ragnaroek: how about 'a simple lisp that, while fun to play with, is missing a significant number of features lisp users have come to expect' 21:46:03 ok, i had only 6 month time where I couldn't implement the whole CL alone 21:46:42 is scheme a toy lisp? 21:46:47 _3b: yeah.. it's made to be used from JS rather than translated from PS. 21:46:57 <_3b> drewc: cool 21:47:19 Ragnaroek: it was, before 20 years of hard work went into making PLT actually useful ;) 21:47:32 *drewc* is biased of course. 21:47:43 drewc: The only way I see to use org-mode across computers is with a VCS, do you know of another? 21:48:06 <_3b> not that toy lisps can't be useful, if there isn't a better one available :) 21:48:39 tmh: unfortunately not... and i use git for that. However, i am working on a proper distributed file merger for org-mode things. 21:48:53 tmh: it's not usable yet, but it will at least get clock lines correct 21:48:58 *_3b* 's toy lisp is close to being useful, and it is missing huge chunks of CL 21:49:46 drewc PLT is great 21:49:47 q: is arc a toy lisp? a: no, toys are supposed to be fun. 21:49:49 drewc: There's some mobile org app for the iphone, but it doesn't look general. Might be a start, though, though I don't have an iphone. 21:50:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:27 tmh: i actually have a web-based thing that i can use to update my org-mode files... it does't do it well, but gets the data recorded until i hit an emacs 21:50:28 I don't wan't my lisp to be a toy lisp :) 21:50:54 Ragnaroek: i don't want to pay rent :) 21:51:00 toys can be both useful and fun 21:51:06 <_3b> Ragnaroek: mine isn't intended to be, but that is a long term goal... useful comes first 21:51:29 arabesca: PLT is very nice indeed. 21:51:36 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-163-118.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:43 drewc: Public? 21:51:43 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 21:51:47 *drewc* has many toy lisps hanging around... none of which were ever meant to be anything more. 21:51:56 tmh: nah, dirty hack. 21:52:20 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.81.137] has quit [] 21:52:27 tmh: however, i can make my cl-org-mode stuff public if you'd like to play 21:52:31 i think i have about five or six different lisps just for toying around with ideas 21:53:20 TC Lispers meeting next week... 21:53:48 _somewhere_ i have an implemention of Arc i wrote in CL the week arc was anounced. 21:53:50 also trying to implement some of the features of the lisp we use at work in libraries for CL 21:53:59 arabesca: what lisp is that? 21:54:06 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:07 drewc that would be nice to take a look at 21:54:10 year, you both are really great 21:54:17 (the arc one, i still think there are some good ideas in it) 21:54:18 drewc: Hmm, I'll bug you about it later if I get into org-mode. What I want is something that has a timer client app on my laptop, workstation and phone and syncs the data with some central source. Need to do some research. 21:54:39 cl-sql is really strange in some ways. 21:54:47 pjb [n=t@26.Red-79-149-145.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:48 arabesca: if i can find it i'll put it somewhere. 21:54:59 drewc it's similar to CL, but smaller, no loop or CLOS, other things like threading builtin, it's developed in house for HP-UX 21:55:12 tmh: that's the dream, 21:55:34 drewc: I was looking at a couple web-based time trackers that had published API's, but the data structures were pretty minimal and both were XML based. 21:55:40 (dolist (obj (clsql:select ...)) (format t ... (slot-value (first obj) 'slot-name))) -- this is weird that clsql:select will return a list, inside a list, for this query. 21:55:41 arabesca: cool.. are you in research? (or: how does one end up working in a custom in-house lisp!) 21:56:27 not research (unfortunately) 21:56:55 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 21:57:05 TDT`: uh why? how else should a sequence of tuples be represented? 21:57:10 working in (a subsidiary of) HP 21:57:38 TDT`: you might be selecting multiple things... you happen to be only selecting a single object, I guess 21:57:44 we get some data in "this" format and make programs to output "that" format, things like that 21:58:03 arabesca: ooo sounds fun :P 21:58:04 heh 21:58:16 drewc: I'm presuming that cl-org-mode is a parser of the org-mode files? 21:58:21 arabesca: why the custom lisp rather than a CL? (and it does sound fun) 21:58:41 rahul: So...if I modified this select to tie in multiple tables - as in foreign key type stuff, that it'll return a list of objects that match the query as a whole. 21:58:44 tmh: yeah, + a literate programming system (-ish) for CL in emacs + org-mode + slime 21:58:52 well, dealing with braindead formats is usually not that entertaining 21:59:08 drewc it was here before i joined, works well and it's mantained, also it has a pretty good interface to the HP-UX system 21:59:12 (it's self-hosting as well, written in lisp in org-mode) 21:59:15 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A632F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:16 TDT`: if you select multiple things, it should probably give you multiple things :) 21:59:41 arabesca: makes sense. kinda. :) 21:59:47 there are also a lot of scripts in it that get things done and you can reuse, so it's nice to use 22:00:46 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@94.216.64.40] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:00:53 rahul well, sometimes it's pretty boring but it puts food on the table ^^ 22:00:55 rahul: yeah, I suppose - quite honestly I'd like to see associations referenced from the object....for example (slot-value foo 'bar) and the value bar links to another class, that it would just return an instance of that class with the correct information in it. 22:01:14 and you get to learn about hp-ux, ibm as/400 and other systems 22:01:19 strange. A maintained in house lisp dialect. 22:01:27 rahul: Having the option of doing something like: (slot-value (slot-value foo 'bar) 'zar) -- for example. 22:01:38 drewc: Now I'm intrigued because I'm using noweb for one of my projects as an exercise in literate programming. The most painful thing is that the code chunks in my document are not automagically synchronized with the code. If this feature was available, it would make literate programming usable for all of my projects. 22:01:53 TDT`: ummm... pretty damn sure clsql can do that. 22:02:28 drewc: if it can, then the list of lists no longer makes sense :) I just started messing with this today, so I'll take it as something maybe I'll encounter the reason for later. 22:02:39 up until last year there were some people at our institute using an ancient lisp dialect. I think standard lisp. They didn't like it, but the app had capabilities that were unmatched for a long time 22:03:00 the app writen in the dialect, I mean. 22:03:28 tmh: what do you mean by automatically syncronized? 22:03:38 TDT`: it makes sense if you SELECT multiple things 22:03:40 prxq there were people here that wanted to start ports to c or java 22:03:48 portable standard lisp it was 22:03:50 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:22 but there so much code already working well that it would probably be stupid 22:04:31 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-236-91.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:46 probably much, much easier to move to common lisp 22:04:52 arabesca: that would be stupid indeed. A port to CL though, OTOH :) 22:05:18 i would miss LOOP and CLOS immensely if forced to work without them. 22:05:18 drewc: If I edit the code in the document chunk, the edits should show up in the lisp code and vice-versa 22:05:56 a port to CL would be feasible, but the CL system would need to work well with hp-ux 22:06:08 tmh: right.. i'm working on that bit now. FWIW, the leo editor can do this already with it's newer @shadow nodes, which is where i stole the method. 22:06:11 otherwise no problem, the dialect we use is mostly a subset 22:06:13 arabesca: what was their rationale for C or Java? 22:06:29 adeht easier to find people that knows them 22:07:01 arabesca: do you have a problem finding people? 22:07:19 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:21 -!- mutew [n=mutew@128.220.251.38] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 22:07:42 arabesca: Scieneer supports hp-ux, fwiw 22:07:49 arabesca: well, CMUCL used to work on HP-UX 22:08:02 adeht if it was my choice, it would be good for me that they don't find peopple :P 22:08:07 right, and scieneer is a commercial fork of cmucl 22:08:32 arabesca: job security! :) 22:08:39 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:08:57 ITA has 200+ lispers on staff 22:09:25 well, maybe more like 150 that are actually lispers... GUI stuff is a lot of Java and C++ there 22:10:20 rahul: and a kick-ass snack bar. 22:10:22 drewc: is your literate org-mode CL thing public? 22:10:27 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:28 drewc: very kick-ass 22:10:28 the rest of the coding here is "cl" (control language, ibm as/400), C and Java 22:11:03 tell me more about your health insurance, itadroids! 22:11:31 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:55 Krystof: it should be... i'll make a cl-net project. 22:13:07 drewc: I recall you mentioning leo before, but the last thing I have time for at the moment is learning another editor. I just want emacs to handle my noweb documents. There is a CL version of noweb, AXWEB, that I thought might form the basis for what I want. 22:13:09 ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has joined #lisp 22:14:07 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-155-138.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:14:14 drewc: when you say "I'll make a cl-net project." do you mean right this moment or some indeterminate time in the future? 22:14:18 tmh: leo can integrate with emacs pretty well, fwiw. I don't use it anymore either. 22:14:37 drewc: Stop shooting down my excuses. :-) 22:14:52 tmh: doing so right now 22:15:29 maybe I don't want a complete literate programming thing in this case; what I want is a documentation system that's optimized for short, single-file things, where the file is simply CL with comments, but those comments are interpreted along with the code to produce nice-looking docs 22:15:45 like pbook.el by reputation, but lukego has disappeared from the internet 22:15:51 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:15:52 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78.72.33.106] has quit [Client Quit] 22:16:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:12 I haven't figured out how to get a reader macro to know that it's in the docstring position 22:16:13 the motivation here is to be able to do a one-keystroke blog illustrating some marvellous didactic point 22:16:30 oh, you _want_ the code with it? 22:16:48 yes. Think a bit like the "implementation" bit of documented tex files 22:17:07 well, this is true literate programming, afaict 22:17:16 code and documentation interleaved and output nicely 22:17:27 documented tex _almost_ works, in fact, but it falls apart when you want to do class files 22:17:36 I can't just use a .dtx source file as my class file 22:19:06 really something that understood ";;;;" as a sectioning command a la org-mode, and some cleverness with respect to comments => text and code => verbatim, might be enough for what I want 22:19:18 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:19:51 Krystof: I would prefer something like #| TAG ... |# 22:20:08 Nobody mentioned Alex Plotnick's CLWEB yet? 22:20:23 nyef: Haven't really looked over it. 22:21:23 I want my source file to be legal CL 22:21:29 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:34 nyef: Oh, I remember why, it is CWEB and I use noweb, so if I want the CL route, I'll use AXWEB. 22:21:44 (ideally, with no readtable hackery) 22:21:56 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:21:58 Krystof: Why is #| TAG ... |# not legal CL? 22:22:06 tmh: it is 22:22:15 I was ignoring your preference, because it is completely irrelevant 22:22:29 (to me, obviously YMV :-) 22:22:39 Krystof: Wow, have you been talking to my wife? :-) 22:23:26 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-76.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:24:03 tmh: well, the point is that if my desire can be accommodated yours probably can too with a minor regexp tweak or something 22:24:16 Krystof: yeah, that's along the lines of what I was doing, too 22:24:35 maybe I'll work on that next week 22:24:45 whereas if these AXWEB or CLWEB fools have their way, we'll be doomed to editing weird and wacky formats that seem to have missed my desires completely 22:24:52 need to flesh out generic-reader fully. 22:25:24 Krystof: have you looked at the defdoc syntax doc before? 22:25:31 haha, no, does it actually exist? 22:25:40 Krystof: Bah, no one is imposing using those tools. 22:25:42 it's existed for years... 22:25:52 I've only mentioned it a few dozen times... 22:26:20 Krystof: anyway, I'm not sure it's appropriate to have such heavyweight syntax in code 22:26:49 so throw some ideas at me as to what kind of markup syntax you'd like 22:26:56 rahul: oh I know the idea has existed in your head for years 22:27:00 . . . 22:27:12 Krystof: I guess you ignored all the code and docs I put out 22:27:24 good times, good times 22:27:27 the project websites are all generated in defdoc 22:27:43 you're right, for me that is indeed too heavyweight 22:27:50 yeah 22:28:13 look, let me see if I can motivate this 22:28:16 trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-058-210-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:25 most of the formatting should be implicit from the number of semicolons that precede the comment 22:28:55 and then there needs to maybe be some inidcation of what is a symbol in a comment and what is not 22:29:25 even spit out hyperlinks to the anchors where those symbols are defined or to the clhs 22:30:31 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75576d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:43 Krystof: have you seen qbook? http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/repos/qbook/ 22:31:45 it's basically pbook for cl 22:32:06 -!- TDT` [n=user@206.196.111.202] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:43 Aside from the lack of editor support, I actually like the noweb style of literate programming. It imposes a certain discipline that can seem burdensome, but when you have the documentation at the end, it's worth it. 22:33:01 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:33:06 *tmh* should be more specific 22:33:31 Aside from the emacs support, but apparently there's even a work around there. 22:33:45 Aside from the native emacs support, there. 22:33:45 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:34:22 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@71.59.145.125] has quit ["leaving"] 22:34:52 nyef: Just to keep you informed, the atom-name thing works great, but font-properties isn't complete for the "default" font... But I'm not giving up yet! 22:35:25 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-085-103.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:35:26 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 22:35:26 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.113.32] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:35:45 LispWorks 5.1 (32-bit) for Windows costs 1200 euros 22:35:46 22:35:52 is it worthwhile? 22:36:10 if you want a full commercial development environment 22:36:33 MS Visual Studio costs around 1000 euros, by comparison 22:36:55 if emacs+slime is fine for you, keep using it 22:36:59 yes it's the professional edition I'm talking about 22:37:21 francogrex: the debugger seems to be quite good 22:37:22 francogrex: if you'd by MS Visual Studio, then LW would be a worthwhile investment 22:37:23 francogrex: "Is it worthwhile?" is user specific. 22:37:24 are there many people who use commercial lisp and sell their code? what type of projects are those typically? 22:37:42 Sikander: many. they are typically very varied. 22:38:04 Sikander: stock trading guis. web applications. CAD programs. 22:38:08 just download the trial edition and give it a spin for a week or two, stress various parts of the system, read the documentation, etc. my own experience with LW has been that it is one of the most solid and reliable lisps there are. 22:38:13 I ask, because it's all Java, C/C#/C++ what I hear 22:38:22 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C898.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:38:28 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C898.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:29 Sikander: I have a copy of LispWorks that I intend to use for delivering my code with simple GUIs. It won't be software that is sold, it will simply be a deliverable for the client. 22:38:30 Sikander: lispers tend to write code 22:38:31 rahul: I downloaded MS visual C++ the free version and i hated it. i much prefer gcc 22:38:46 Sikander: other people tend to make noise and post to forums instead of writing working code 22:38:46 but LW pro might have advantages 22:38:54 rahul: heheh 22:39:01 francogrex: well, LW has a free trial, so see if you like it 22:39:14 francogrex: it has a nice debugger, class browser, etc 22:39:31 So outside of open source, there is quite some "real" work done with lisp? 22:39:36 rahul: free trial was ok, but as tmh was saying the pro edition allows delivering standalone apps 22:39:37 Sikander: a lot 22:39:40 (and outside of academia) 22:39:45 francogrex: it does 22:39:51 Good to know 22:39:52 Sikander: very little in academia 22:39:57 Sikander: it's mostly commercial 22:40:01 rahul: really?! 22:40:03 really. 22:40:18 what there is in academia is mostly research for commercial products 22:40:25 stuff like ACL2 22:40:26 I always thought that lisps (ok, mostly scheme) were very much tools used in academia 22:40:36 Sikander: yes, scheme, but not CL 22:40:53 rahul: Ah, ok. So of all the lisps, CL is used a lot commercially? 22:41:01 Sikander: yes 22:41:20 it used in police forensic investigations, too! 22:41:26 ?! 22:41:45 http://www.franz.com/success/customer_apps/knowledge_mgmt/genworks.lhtml 22:41:50 CAD ^ 22:41:51 Sikander: CL is the "industrial lisp". Scheme is the "academic lisp". (not exclusively though, of course) 22:42:23 http://www.lispworks.com/success-stories/netfonds-primetrader.html 22:42:25 So it's really used in, say, "large" and specific projects, not mass-produced commercial stuff 22:42:37 rahul: thanks for the links 22:42:43 http://www.lispworks.com/success-stories/xanalys-link-explorer.html 22:43:14 Sikander: it can be used for building applications which mass produce other applications :) 22:43:28 Sikander: although every airline ticket you book is probably using Lisp 22:43:29 *trebor_home* needs to say: oh what a joy it is to WORK in lisp ;)) 22:43:30 rahul: aha :) 22:43:43 rahul: Yes, I knew about that one, and about AutoCAD 22:44:31 http://www.lispworks.com/success-stories/noteheads-igor-engraver.html 22:44:32 I mostly ask because when people laugh in my face when I say I'm using lisp, they tell me it's a dead scripting language that has no real-world use 22:44:40 A music composition app made by someone named Cons 22:44:49 So I have to google for "success stories" :) 22:44:52 it's anything but a scripting language 22:44:55 Sikander: Are these older people? 22:45:29 tmh: Well, say, 30. Is that old by your standards? 22:45:48 Sikander: Not really, that's younger than me. :-( 22:45:59 rahul: Yes, I know, and I tell them, but that's what they believe... 22:46:15 tmh: heheh... Well, there you have it! 22:47:17 Sikander: ask them how games like Crash Bandicoot and Jak and Dexter were written in a dead scripting language 22:47:40 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:47:42 rahul: ... really? I have to get me a playstation... 22:48:06 Sikander: and how the graphics for final fantasy were created in a lisp 3d modelling application 22:48:22 not autocad, but an application written totally in common lisp 22:48:34 Sikander: The impression I get is that the older guys who were around for the 80s lisp usage still think of it as interpreted. When you explain to them that it is compiled, then they are mildly intrigued. 22:48:38 eno__ [n=eno@70.137.166.236] has joined #lisp 22:49:02 iirc, the Igor hacker actually changed his name to Cons. now, /that/ is making a language statement, heh. 22:49:40 Sikander: and how it runs phone call router 22:49:42 Well, for people around the 30, when I even say "lisp" they start laughing! 22:49:59 dysinger [n=dysinger@75.85.132.170] has joined #lisp 22:50:00 Sikander: and the C++ rewrite of the phone router never made it to production because it was too slow and was missing features 22:50:11 tmh: And when I tell them it's compiled, they laugh even harder (for some reason) 22:50:18 rahul: Hahah! 22:50:21 tmh: in the 80s, it wasn't interpreted 22:50:34 in fact, lisp was NEVER interpreted. it was compiled from the start. 22:50:49 McCarthy actually couldn't figure out how to write a lisp interpreter 22:50:57 Sikander: because they don't understand what compiled is 22:51:06 Sikander: Then don't tell them, they're obviously ignorant. That is generally a reaction used by someone that doesn't want to listen to what you are saying and simply want's to dismiss it so they don't have to engage any gray matter. 22:51:29 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:34 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:50 Yeah... 22:52:16 Just to clarify, I would drop using lisp in a minute if I found something better. 22:52:28 I find it funny that they laugh at lisp because it's interpreted and slow (according to them) but praise python for its speed and clarity. 22:52:34 tmh: I would add it to lisp if I found something better :) 22:52:35 ... I find lisp pretty clear 22:52:43 heh 22:52:44 rahul: haha! 22:52:50 I still look at alternatives, occasionally. 22:52:58 cl-python compiles python to machine code 22:53:04 using CL 22:53:09 heheh 22:53:13 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:53:19 so lisp makes python faster! 22:53:20 it's a python->cl converter, eh 22:54:05 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@84.46.36.19] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:38 Another thing they tell me is that lisp is large and overly complicated, whereas python (with it's large batteries included libraries) is small. 22:54:47 Alright, need to do something useful. Are you done posting cl-org-mode on cl-net drewc? 22:55:02 Sikander: heh, well, they seem to be pretty ignorant people 22:55:09 Sikander: and they WANT to remain ignorant 22:55:15 their loss 22:55:42 Sikander: some people believe in jesus. some people believe in python :) 22:55:45 I read all the faq's etc opposing these views, and it's funny that those are EXACTLY the things they say! 22:56:02 What I'm mostly wondering is why this image exists... 22:56:09 all we can do is pray for them :P 22:56:12 heheh 22:56:27 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212.198.78.230] has quit [Success] 22:56:34 Sikander: it exists because people took a class that taught them how to write a scheme interpreter in scheme 22:56:47 Sikander: It's a defense mechanism to protect the person from having to critically think. 22:57:17 Sikander: and because they assume that their life is a superset of the entire universe, that lisp is interpreted and slow and confusing. 22:57:20 tmh: I don't believe that. I know a lot of people that switched from perl to python in an instant, as an example. But when they hear "lisp"... 22:57:47 Sikander: but all the cool kids are doing python, so it has to be fast and clear! 22:57:52 heheh! 22:57:59 this is how they think 22:58:02 *rahul* shrugs 22:58:05 bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:08 don't waste your time on them 22:58:13 Ok, well, I'm off to read some of the success stories :) 22:58:18 Thanks 22:58:19 Sikander: It's intellectually expensive to switch. They've already made an investment in python, now they want some return. 22:58:24 do something useful and maybe they'll reconsider their opinions 22:58:42 tmh: ok, good point 22:58:51 they'll be like, how did oyu manage to make such a fast application so quickly? I used lisp! Oh... maybe I should learn lisp... 22:59:33 Well, I'll just keep with the cl philosophy and write, instead of making noise :) 22:59:34 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:38 or they'll just laugh and not believe you. and then you know that they're not worth talking to 22:59:43 :) 22:59:45 :D 22:59:47 Sikander: It's like buying a car -> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/ca76129a3df0d563/a5d5c10f811b81e8?lnk=gst&q=buying+a+car#a5d5c10f811b81e8 22:59:58 rahul: or equally likely, "let's rewrite it in python now!" 23:01:24 varjag: heheh 23:01:52 tmh: right... thanks for the link 23:02:20 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:13 sikander i got the old lisp is an interpreted language recently 23:03:14 Sikander: My favorite argument for using lisp is "It sucks less" 23:03:32 scary thing was it was a computers lecturer at the university 23:04:05 tmh: ah, the same as mutt! I agree! 23:04:21 Guthur: Then it IS scary... 23:04:28 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@96.52.239.77] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:43 he's not involved in my course thankfully 23:04:59 Ok, really, this time I'm out. No response from drewc. 23:05:00 I'm not a CS guy... But a language is not by its nature interpreted, right? I mean, theoretically, you can write a compiler for every language...? 23:05:30 minion: memo for drewc : I'm watching cl-net for cl-org-mode, let me know if it is under another name. 23:05:30 Remembered. I'll tell drewc when he/she/it next speaks. 23:05:34 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 23:05:52 Sikander: right 23:05:57 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:06:01 Ok then 23:06:47 Anyway, thanks for all the links and pointers to the success stories. It's past my bedtime now... 23:06:50 Goodnight 23:06:56 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:07:02 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to sleep"] 23:08:32 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219.89.104.224] has joined #lisp 23:11:35 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:13:17 ziga`` [n=user@BSN-176-196-19.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:10 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:19:31 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:45 mutew [n=mutew@128.220.251.38] has joined #lisp 23:19:49 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:00 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:13 billitch [n=billitch@82.67.155.88] has joined #lisp 23:22:15 -!- ziga` [n=user@95.176.160.68] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:26:24 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:27:25 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:31:41 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-80.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:32:35 necroforest [n=jarred@pool-96-255-62-122.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:15 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:35:51 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219.89.104.224] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:36:42 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g227085248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:37:03 -!- jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has quit ["leaving"] 23:40:04 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-085-103.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:04 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 23:42:41 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.9.251] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:43:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-80.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:43:46 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-200.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 23:44:10 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.67.155.88] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:23 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:29 -!- sellout [n=greg@75.25.126.88] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:48:51 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:43 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:50:20 Tordek [n=tordek@190.230.89.185] has joined #lisp 23:53:00 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:13 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:55:25 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:56:32 -!- francogrex [n=user@205.87-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:04 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:06 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 23:59:29 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit []