00:00:24 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.208.170] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:01:55 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:02:59 -!- acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has quit ["leaving"] 00:05:40 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-67-188-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:06:12 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:06:40 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90558.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:08 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:10:55 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:43 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 00:14:29 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:16:06 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:19:26 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 00:20:13 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:22:44 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:58 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:24:58 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-247-183.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:40 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:26:51 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:27:32 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:55 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:49 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:34:04 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 00:37:04 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-41-16.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:57 -!- frode` [n=frode@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:40:14 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [No route to host] 00:40:14 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 00:40:45 <_deepfire> tcr, you should have told me to post on the list the bug I pestered you with :-) 00:41:22 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-8-239.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:42 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:49 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:22 -!- davazp [n=user@83.37.233.218] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:33 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:53 <_deepfire> Sometimes "telling someone to do something" is guidance and is actually welcome. 00:52:59 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:45 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-247-183.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:05 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:56:42 -!- stattrav [n=stattrav@210.212.55.3] has quit ["going baack to the hostel room to sleep"] 00:56:50 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.190] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:57:25 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@173.67.109.95] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:58:07 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:04 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-29-35.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:50 milan [n=milan@93.87.166.147] has joined #lisp 01:09:26 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-155-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:50 so i've defined a condition object, and lost the ability to message... a normal error is (error "Duh: ~s" broked-var), now (error 'condition "Duh: ~s" broked-var) does nothing but signal, i dont see the debugging message 01:11:02 What does your "condition object" inherit from? 01:11:41 Actually, there's a whole pile of possibly-missing things here. 01:11:55 i inherit frmo error 01:12:07 i jsut didn't expect the (error "msg") function to change 01:12:15 clhs error 01:12:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_error.htm 01:12:23 so, (define-condition hoopla (error) ()) 01:12:31 (error 'hoopla "whatever") and "whatever" never shows 01:13:21 Ah. Have a look at section 9.1.2.1. 01:13:25 clhs 9.1.2.1 01:13:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_aba.htm 01:14:12 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_error.htm 01:14:17 s/:report/ 01:14:22 i think that explains it 01:14:27 i have to write a reporting function :P 01:14:30 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:14:42 *sigh* thats annoying, i didn't expect the default behavior to change. 01:14:50 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.25.137] has joined #lisp 01:14:53 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 01:15:43 What I find annoying, actually, is that the default behavior is, in effect, a BOA constructor for a simple-error, but anything more complex ends up with a keyworded constructor instead. 01:16:26 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.232.125] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:54 *blink* ok 01:17:38 i think now between relatively few defined conditions and log5 i've got reporting down, 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[n=russell_@bonneville.tdb.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:08 <_3b> turn off *print-pretty* ? 01:39:08 Yeah, (let ((*print-pretty* nil)) (print '`(+ 3 ,foo 4))). 01:39:08 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.116.123] has left #lisp 01:39:08 oh i wasnt aware it was part of pretty printing 01:39:08 cool 01:39:08 the let wont do though. 01:39:08 setf works 01:39:09 snafuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:09 the print happens outside of the expression at the repl 01:39:09 yeah 01:39:09 it's a common annoyance. 01:39:09 cool. Thanks for the help guys. 01:39:09 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-115-69.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:09 wow. i couldn't define a condition where the report worked.... 01:39:10 until i killed sbcl and reran. it appears to not like redefining conditions 01:39:10 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:39:10 -!- snafuchs is now known as antifuchs 01:39:10 rahul: It took me 10 minutes to figure that out the other day staring at plain simple code woundering if I was stupid. 01:39:10 anyway. I'll call it a day. Good night. 01:39:10 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:39:11 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:11 -!- nan8 [n=user@188.40.75.180] has left #lisp 01:39:12 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@188.104.85.104] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:39:12 man thatsd annoying, each time i change my :report on the condigition i have to kill sbcl and restart slime for it to take effect 01:39:12 Demosthenex: Parameterize it, then? 01:39:12 Alternately, your more minimal solution might be to just blow out your package and recreate it instead of killing SBCL entirely. 01:39:20 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 01:40:03 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:40:26 thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:15 stat_trav [n=stat_tra@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 01:51:48 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:53:38 unthunk [n=unthunk@207-237-48-133.c3-0.80w-ubr2.nyr-80w.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:56 -!- unthunk [n=unthunk@207-237-48-133.c3-0.80w-ubr2.nyr-80w.ny.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 01:55:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-29-35.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:58:07 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-155-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:02 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:20 TDT [n=dthole@173-19-33-152.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:51 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-155-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:19 g'evening all. 02:04:08 -!- voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:08:06 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bebkdsrdmnpxiamx] has left #lisp 02:09:48 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:12:40 gonzojive_ [n=red@128.12.249.103] has joined #lisp 02:13:43 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 02:16:32 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:46 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 02:18:53 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 02:23:48 -!- jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has quit ["leaving"] 02:24:37 any recommendations for a support/ticket system that _small_ and does not suck? RT is a mess. I like to use something I can eye-ball and patch within 2-5 hours. 02:25:02 the whole ticketing thing seems to be an unsolved problem. 02:25:19 trac is the best I looked at, but trac is a serious resource monster. 02:25:42 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:25:45 it just periodically loses its shit and eats the cpu. 02:26:57 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.158] has joined #lisp 02:27:12 trac has worked ok for me when run using mod_python. (lisp angle: trac is used for ccl) 02:29:47 trac seems like geared towards programmers. i need one for end users. 02:29:59 I reckon I could roll something out with a message queue 02:31:09 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:33:18 the other thing is that i have several half-baked lisp web apps that are all tied together with hunchentoot 02:33:59 if i ever wanna release them, they would be seperate packages, each requiring a hunchentoot instance (and each a seprate user-management module, and cross-authentication, i.e. suckage) 02:34:46 I have cl-scgi implemented, but untested; is it bad to standardize on a python protocol? i mean, it exists, it's established, and it's simple. 02:35:21 all lisp web apps can implement scgi and all could be dropped behind apache/lighty/nginx or whatever. 02:35:47 is it bad? 02:36:07 since most will probably just use hunchentoot, there is a need for a PAM-like thing for hunchentoot (just thinking loud) 02:36:38 Xach: scgi is fine by me, i was wondering if mod_lisp is a better protocol (never looked at it; scgi was too tempting at 2 pages.) 02:36:43 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:16 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 02:38:49 of the crap that i have; user management, some basic supply chain management with dynamic inventory (for finite resources), a simple billing system, if I get around to it a ticket system, a simple CMS for websites, a bastardized version of pjb's invoice.lisp made into cl-money, a message-queue of sorts based on Redis, etc. etc. 02:38:59 a blog generator 02:39:26 fuss1: mod_lisp pretty simple. 02:39:52 efficientp 02:41:38 gruseom [n=daniel@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:34 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:42:40 -!- qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-nagdtsntgrfdiifl] has left #lisp 02:47:39 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:51:13 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:51:40 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 02:57:31 Hmm...fuss1 do you do web development with Lisp? Something I've been thinking of trying, but been reluctant for awhile now. 02:58:07 -!- durbin [n=durbin@adsl-99-181-3-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:05 *Xach* does web development with lisp 03:01:09 -!- qsun [n=qsun@67.223.233.193] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:13 I'll still have to give that a try sometime. I've still been stuck with Django/Rails/PHP for the most part yet for web development. 03:02:02 I think the main thing I'd do well to learn in the whole web development with lisp thing is to have web services (especially REST server) able to be built in Iisp, and called from other sources. Would make my life a lot easier in some areas. 03:02:10 -!- jawhite [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 03:04:30 TDT: I do _everything_ development with Lisp; right now i am doing accounting with it 03:06:14 heh, I wish I was proficient at Lisp well enough to be able to totally replace everything with it 03:06:17 *fuss1* is the dreading the the uncharted waters that are win32+ccl+cl-pdf 03:06:19 I haven't quite got there...by a long shot, yet. 03:06:53 lisp is the new perl 03:07:04 hmm? how so? 03:07:51 you haven't disrepesected McCarthy until you have written a small email blasting package for lawyers in CL. 03:09:22 heh 03:10:11 PAIP really makes me feel I know very little about lisp...when chapter 5 is kicking my butt. 03:10:29 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:11:05 I don't think i have ever read paip in that much depth; usually i just read whatever chapter that I suspect can help me with a problem. Out of order, on-demand paging. 03:11:16 jawhite [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:11:38 http://battlecode.mit.edu/2010/ looks interesting 03:11:49 I may do better doing something similar to that. I've read something like 3 different books on CL and am still incredibly new at this all. 03:13:38 read code, write code 03:13:45 practice, practice, practice 03:14:22 I need to do more writing :) 03:15:05 fuss1: hmm, that battlecode thing sounds interesting. Looks like one needs to use Java though 03:25:56 vieira [n=vieira@193.136.128.19] has joined #lisp 03:26:31 Hello, is there any easy way of inserting an element E into a list of lists in position X,Y? 03:27:36 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-155-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:17 Are you wanting to shift everything over from the insertion, or are you replacing a value already there? 03:29:10 eg. (insert-el '((1 0) (1 1)) '(0 1) 1) -> '((1 1) (1 1)) 03:29:24 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:42 so replacing a value i guess TDT 03:29:58 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-115-69.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:29:59 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-41.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:10 sellout: herep 03:30:16 t 03:31:05 Yo, how's it looking for getting those new skis? 03:31:16 TDT: Any idea? 03:31:26 vieira: one sec, kinda on the tip of my tongue, trying to remember this right now. 03:31:43 TDT: thank you very much. :) 03:32:05 Getting there, getting there. Still a bit behind, but just gotta keep a 2400 word count per day from here on out. And I have some x-country flights coming up that should help me with that. 03:32:17 gigamonkey: I'm impressed by your consistency. 03:33:09 Heh. All thanks to my elisp. I've souped it up quite a bit since I pasted it. It now tells me how many words I have to write to hit various targets. I put in all the people in Berkeley who are ahead of me and then try to catch them. 03:33:35 Hah, nice. 03:33:42 So it boils down to a bunch of, "Hmmm, if I can just write 238 more words I can catch the next person." 03:34:20 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-155-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:12 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.29.110] has joined #lisp 03:35:36 Yo lemonodor. 03:35:47 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:17 vieira: oh this is ugly, one sec, I'll gist it for you 03:38:01 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-aroiqdtkbdkihvel] has joined #lisp 03:38:26 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:38:45 TDT: ok, thank you very much for your help. :) 03:39:12 vieira: I'm assuming: http://gist.github.com/241604 is what you're asking for. I hope there's a better solution others have for it. 03:39:15 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@12.48.195.73] has joined #lisp 03:40:10 <_3b> TDT: don't modify literal lists 03:41:32 _3b: This may sound like a dumb question, but why not? 03:41:51 <_3b> undefined behavior according to the spec 03:42:06 <_3b> it might have reused the list from the source for example 03:42:19 TDT: I want it to work just like that but I can modify the list I receive... 03:42:24 *cannot 03:42:39 Makes sense, how would you write something equivalent to this _3b? 03:42:55 I must return the new list but cannot touch the list I receive :S 03:43:05 *_3b* woudl write it the same way, just not using it on literal lists :) 03:43:19 Yeah, I think _3b will answer both of our question vieira, hehe. 03:43:24 <_3b> copy-tree might be helopful 03:44:24 _3b: can you be more specific please. and thanks for your help. 03:44:27 I've been descending into the hole that is parsing floating point numbers. Consider the single-float number 1.2345677, entered into SBCL, the result is 1.2345676. In LispWorks, the result is 1.2345677. It is obvious from looking at the SBCL code why this is happening, but is it worth fixing? 03:44:29 _3b: the literal list thing may be catching me up a little, I'm assuming you mean by using the (list) function, thought ', and (list) are the same. 03:44:56 TDT: nope. 03:44:56 <_3b> TDT: list is OK, quote (') makes literals 03:45:10 <_3b> clhs copy-tree 03:45:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_tre.htm 03:45:10 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-155-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:17 <_3b> vieira: see that link ^ 03:45:19 ah, I see, so I had it totally backwards 03:45:40 IIRC, backquote is guaranteed to make fresh lists. Though I could envision being corrected about that. 03:46:25 Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-73-106.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:26 Ah, maybe not. 03:46:55 "The constructed copy of the template might or might not share list structure with the template itself." 03:47:21 Where are you reading this gigamonkey? 03:47:29 looking through the documentation on lispworks right now. 03:47:31 http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_2-4-6.html 03:47:46 clhs 2.4.6 03:47:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 03:47:57 _3b: are you suggesting that I copy the tree I receive, modify the copy and return it? 03:48:02 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:48:27 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.158] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:48:27 minion: logs 03:48:27 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 03:48:27 <_3b> vieira: that is one way to do that, yes 03:49:41 vieira: though one has to ask, why do you want to do this with lists? 03:49:47 _3b: Ok, thanks for your help! And thanks to TDT too. 03:49:50 dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport2.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 03:50:31 gigamonkey: I receive a list of lists (I don't have a choice here :X) and I must insert in that list of lists a value V in position x,y and return the new list (leaving the one I received intact). 03:51:47 So you have three choices: your function can destroy the list passed in (though, it sounds like that one is out). You can return a list that may share structure with the passed in list, or you can return a completely fresh list. 03:52:27 COPY-TREE is the way to do the latter but typically if you've really got to use lists (why is that?) then you probably want to try to share structure. 03:53:06 gigamonkey: Is there a reason, in his circumstance, that you'd recommend not using lists? 03:53:27 gigamonkey: how can I do that @ share structures? :S 03:54:59 gigamonkey: I don't know yet, this is the specification of the function I must write: a function that receives a list of lists, inserts a value V in position X,Y and returns a list with V in X,Y leaving the received list intact. 03:55:26 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has quit [] 03:55:42 vieira: is this homework? 03:55:58 gigamonkey: Other functions are expecting this function to act in this way so I don't have much choice here... 03:56:32 not homework, it's a project for AI, solving hidato games 03:56:39 vieira: well, maybe the larger design is flawed. Any time you're indexing into lists, it's a sign something has gone wrong. 03:56:50 Will COPY-TREE perform a deep copy of a list of lists? 03:56:55 Or rather, a sign something may have gone wrong. 03:57:17 *TDT* is still confused why why List is bad here. 03:57:25 gigamonkey: I see but the specification of project stricly says that I will receive a list of lists xD 03:57:47 tmh: the structure of conses will be copied. But it won't copy through any non-conses. 03:58:41 TDT: actually I'm not sure it is. I still don't quite understand the spec. Are we inserting an element or replacing one? 03:59:03 vieira: So, to be absolutely safe about the copy, the contents of the cons cells needs to be specified. 03:59:27 gigamonkey: I think he's replacing..at least the code I wrote only does that. But yeah - I'm not sure the specifications either at this point 04:00:11 gigamonkey: insert-el('((1 0 1) (1 1 1) (1 1 1)) '(0 1) 1) -> '((1 1 1) (1 1 1) (1 1 1)) 04:00:36 vieira: that'd be easier to grok if it wasn't all 0's and 1's. 04:00:36 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 04:01:08 But I take it, the 2nd argument '(0 1) specifies take the 0th element of the outer list and then replace the 1th element of that with the 3rd argument, (i.e. 1) 04:01:27 (insert-el list-of-lists '(x y) V) 04:01:41 Hmm...looks like it's keeping the state ofthe board. 04:01:54 assuming it's a board you're operating on...by the 1s and 0s in that format. 04:02:17 gigamonkey: insert V in position x, y in list-of-lists 04:02:24 -!- frodef [n=frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:50 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:03:07 gigamonkey: (insert-el '((1 2) (3 4)) '(0 1) 5) -> '((1 5) (3 4)) 04:03:21 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:03:35 TDT: yep keeping state of the board... 04:04:37 gigamonkey: any suggestion? 04:04:52 well, writing back to that list isn't that difficult. 04:05:44 TDT: I can not write to list I receive, I shall return the modified list 04:06:16 Well, it was recommended you use copy-tree before - you can do that, change the value, then return that tree that you copied. 04:06:23 minion: paste 04:06:24 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 04:07:13 gigamonkey pasted "One way?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90996 04:07:18 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:07:20 Good morning! 04:07:23 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.210.208] has joined #lisp 04:07:44 Morning beach. 04:07:55 Greetings beach 04:07:57 vieira: I think that function I pasted does what you want. 04:08:14 With sharing of structure. 04:10:35 If he shares the structure wouldn't it modify the original listing? 04:10:41 Another option is this: http://gist.github.com/241604 04:10:49 (just updated the original) 04:10:50 No, you only share the parts that are the same. 04:11:25 gigamonkey: it's exactly that. thank you so much! 04:11:29 You never SETF the CAR or CDR of any of the conses in the original list, but you can make new conses that point to conses that are part of teh original. 04:11:32 Hmm.. I'll have to play with this snippet of code, reading it right now I'm not fully sure how it works yet. 04:11:48 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:12:49 gigamonkey: Done for the night: 2,485. 04:12:56 vieira: Taking a Lisp course? 04:13:26 sellout: yeah, I better get back to it. I have a similar target and I'm only 718 in. 04:13:28 beach: It's AI, but yes I'm learning lisp. Knew only a bit of scheme. 04:13:58 gigamonkey: Yeah, but you've already got like 5k on me! 04:14:11 Ack, more like 8k. 04:14:14 what are you two competing in? 04:14:44 sellout: hey, at least you're ahead of Chris Baty! 04:14:54 TDT: http://nanowrimo.org 04:15:15 rares [n=rares@174.22.225.229] has joined #lisp 04:15:17 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.224.255] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:34 -!- rares [n=rares@174.22.225.229] has left #lisp 04:15:56 ah yes, read this from your twitter post at one point. 04:16:22 gigamonkey: Yeah, but I feel like he has a strategy at least (if he's not just holding back to make others feel like they're doing well). 04:17:14 Yeah. Must be an interesting month for him. He's got to finish, right. But he's got a bunch of other stuff to do, no doubt. 04:19:28 fun for the whole family http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_Event_Processing_%28CEP%29 04:20:13 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:20:32 *fuss1* needs a Design Patterns <--> Lisp cheatsheet to help him clone corporate software designs in CL 04:22:35 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 04:22:50 sellout: Did you notice the offer from CreateSpace to get a free printed, bound proof copy of your book if you win? 04:23:48 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-253-142-92.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:53 gigamonkey: Yeah, I think that's one of the things that's been keeping me going. Not so much the free copy, but the fact that if I don't get it done this month, I'll _never_ get a book done. 04:24:23 hello 04:24:40 fuss1: www.dreamsongs.com 04:25:09 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 04:25:47 hello rrice 04:26:16 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:29 does anyone know where I can find cllib? The link on cliki is broken. 04:26:36 http://paste.lisp.org/+1Y7Q 04:27:01 rahul: i just started that one; i need to add use-cases and examples, plus finish the rest 04:28:37 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:30:53 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:31:26 fuss1: singleton is symbols. you can eql dispatch on them in methods. 04:31:44 make-instance is a complete general purpose factory 04:32:35 -!- fuss1 is now known as fusss 04:32:43 observer you can implement via multimethods if there's little dynamisim in the set of observers, otherwise, just mapping functions over lists of listeners 04:32:44 good night all and thank you very much for all the help! 04:32:48 -!- vieira [n=vieira@193.136.128.19] has quit ["leaving"] 04:32:53 command pattern is funcall 04:33:08 don't remember bridge and memento 04:33:52 rahul: I have edited the document with your suggestions 04:33:53 fusss, memo from sykopomp: I see you put some stubs up a while ago for cffi ffmpeg bindings. Have you many any progress on those? I was about to start writing my own. 04:34:12 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:34:23 memento sounds like it's the one where you add stuff to a plist 04:34:35 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 04:35:26 -!- TDT [n=dthole@173-19-33-152.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["sleep"] 04:35:43 minion: memo for sykopomp: no, I just wrote the minimum FFI necessary to implement VIDEO-FORMAT-OF, and I think it's in sb-alien. email me for the stubs, if you want. 04:35:44 Remembered. I'll tell sykopomp when he/she/it next speaks. 04:36:52 fusss: ahh. Nevermind, then. 04:36:52 sykopomp, memo from fusss: no, I just wrote the minimum FFI necessary to implement VIDEO-FORMAT-OF, and I think it's in sb-alien. email me for the stubs, if you want. 04:37:15 fusss: I think I'm done setting up enough bindings to successfully decode audio/video and stream it. 04:37:24 I'm working on figuring out -how- now :P 04:37:47 the ffmpeg API is kind of terrifying and structy. 04:38:14 OK, cllib is not asdf-installable. Got the source... just need to massage it a little. 04:38:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@12.48.195.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:03 sykopomp: yeah, ffmpeg abuses the struct members of structs of struct member structs design pattern 04:39:24 it's one of those APIs you cant FFIize in a subset; you have to do it all at once 04:40:06 fusss: I'm kind of at a loss as to how to translate some of its stuff to clean bindings, too. 04:40:20 I've ended up with this monster function :\ 04:42:07 do a 1:1 implementation mimicking the C version first, then do a higher-level Lispy API later 04:43:36 sykopomp: oh fucking, open up a github repo and let me do some of the headers 04:43:44 I still need it as well 04:44:02 fusss: I have the bindings written, for the most part. 04:44:54 http://github.com/sykopomp/until-it-dies/blob/master/src/graphics/ffmpeg.lisp#L876-941 This is the blob I've been writing solely for the sake of trying to understand how this works. 04:49:22 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:50:05 sykopomp: looks more complete than what i have 04:50:29 fusss: I'm stuck with it right now :\ 04:51:12 it's at the point where all you have to do is start calling sws-scale, but I can't figure out how the function should be split up (and I'm having trouble figuring out what the call to sws-scale should look like) 04:51:13 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:51:30 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 04:51:34 so if you want to help with that bit, I'd be forever grateful. My general understanding of ffmpeg and media stuff in general is pretty meh. 04:51:48 *rahul* has been told that he's discovered a new control flow pattern for lisp 04:52:19 (dolist (... (error)) (ignore-errors (return ...)) 04:52:33 heh 04:52:48 basically, try all these things until you find one that doesn't error, otherwise error 04:53:18 take that, observable pattern! 04:53:18 that is 5/4ths more profound than dlists 04:53:26 Xach: what are these dlists you speak of? 04:53:40 l. ronn's newly discovered data structure 04:53:54 L Ronn? 04:54:00 hubbard? 04:54:01 l. ronn garret 04:54:07 L? 04:54:08 heh 04:54:11 sykopomp: just playing with it now; clozure win32 04:54:11 nice 04:54:13 lafayette, i think. 04:54:30 Xach: should I even try to find out what it is? 04:54:43 fusss: alright. I've been using sbcl to develop it, but I do a lot of devving on ccl, too. Linux64, though. 04:54:45 or should I ignore it like I ignore everything else he says? 04:55:06 rahul: he posted to cll about it. i dunno, to hear him describe it, it's the third leg of a holy alist/plist trinity. 04:55:22 fusss: I like that SBCL lets me keep working with a corrupted image, so I can keep tweaking stuff. As opposed to doing a full image restart every time I have a memory fault :\ 04:55:23 heh 04:56:12 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:56:22 sykopomp: yeah, sbcl is excellent; it just keeps running even when every assumption about the computation is violated and every design contract broken. 04:56:22 dto1 [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:23 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:55 fusss: which is what you need sometimes when you're trying to work with C :\ 04:57:00 Xach: heh 04:57:15 Xach: what a wacky data structure 04:57:23 link to dlist? 04:57:37 I just googled flownet.com dlist comp.lang.lisp 04:57:53 I'm only inferring the structure from later discussions 04:58:47 wow, he thinks they're great for modelling lexical environments 04:58:57 it's almost like he has a stack with a frame pointer 04:59:34 -!- jawhite [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 05:03:05 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has left #lisp 05:04:29 -!- jleija_ [n=jleija@adsl-243-224-205.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:05:15 fusss: what kind of a wrapper would you do for this to have sane access to it from lisp, btw? It seems all the cstruct insanity would make it pretty hard to have much of a lisp-side API :\ 05:05:49 whats a fast way to take a list of values and assign them to a list of symbols 05:06:08 Demosthenex: PROGV 05:07:06 sykopomp: I don't get why you can't just put it in a state object 05:07:06 brb 05:07:16 Demosthenex: except progv doesn't work with local variables 05:07:18 Ralith: I don't, either. :P 05:07:23 okay 05:07:24 do it 05:07:25 bbs 05:07:40 Ralith: I don't know what you mean :P 05:07:48 "be back soon" 05:08:02 (I know what bbs is) 05:08:07 (lies) 05:08:53 Ralith: The function LIES is undefined. [Condition of type UNDEFINED-FUNCTION] 05:08:56 Hey Xach, you're up late. 05:09:21 gigamonkey: hooray for midnight maintenance windows...sitting on a conference call listening to people mumble as they work on distant computers 05:09:45 You should move out here to California. It's only 9pm here. ;-) 05:10:29 Xach: Would any of your web toys be suitable for creating a book cover? 05:10:41 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [No route to host] 05:11:10 gigamonkey: hmm, none of them are especially high-resolution 05:11:19 "sitting on a conference call listening to people mumble as they work on distant computers"... having just watched fear and loathing in las vegas... that should be the opening line of fear and loathing in maine :P 05:11:25 the poster generator is, kind of. 05:12:52 url? 05:16:48 i don't think progv is suitable. i wanted to assign a series of slots the return from a list... 05:17:00 without having N lines of setf's 05:18:38 -!- dto1 [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:18:59 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:42 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:56 Demosthenex: huh? 05:24:57 return from a list? 05:24:57 Demosthenex: (setf a b) (setf c d)  (setf a b c d) 05:24:57 Demosthenex: Ralith beat me to it ;p 05:24:57 (a b c d) (1 2 3 4) equivalent to (setf a 1) ... 05:24:57 Demosthenex: (setf (values a b) (apply #'values list)) 05:24:57 where (1 2 3 4) is returned from a function 05:24:58 mrSpec [n=Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 05:24:58 Demosthenex: or you can have the function return multiple values directly and not need to apply values 05:24:58 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:58 (setf (values a b c d) (function)) 05:24:58 multiple assignment setf considered harmful 05:24:58 fusss: indeed 05:24:58 very easy to get lost when you do that 05:27:13 given i have relatively few at a time (3-5) i think it'll be ok 05:27:21 the (setf (values a b) (apply #'values list)) works 05:27:27 Demosthenex: I find that 3 gets confusing 05:27:32 2 is bad enough 05:27:39 the values way is cleaner if you can do it 05:27:52 Demosthenex: however, I'd suggest changing your function to return multiple values in the first place 05:28:49 if you're assigning them to multiple variables after getting them back, they're clearly not a sequence of things, but distinct values that have separate meanings 05:28:58 not my function.... cl-ppcre:scan returns multiple values anyway (status (list matches)) 05:29:14 oh, you're using regex 05:29:21 my condolences. 05:29:30 you're the one that doesn't like them. ;] 05:29:53 the person who wrote the library doesn't like them either :) 05:29:56 Demosthenex: ppcre provides do-register-groups and similar convenience macros 05:30:00 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 05:30:09 huge ones are a problem, but short ones can consolidate code... 05:30:11 never ever had to explicitly bind any ppcre return values 05:30:16 for instance validation and typing in one 05:30:22 Demosthenex: short ones are great for having surprising results 05:30:41 huge ones are never surprising, becuase you expect them to be a total disaster :P 05:31:01 given the relative complexity of the regexps i work with in the shell and perl routinely, these are a breeze. its getting the values that's funky 05:31:13 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:13 I would never use regex for validating input 05:31:39 either a regex is a too compilicated or too simple tool for 90% of that 05:31:40 fusss: (scan "(\\S+)\\s+(\\S+)" target-string) returns (target-string (list \1 \2)) 05:32:14 fusss: excuse me, thats (values target-string (list \1 \2)) 05:32:24 if regexp failed to match, target-string is nil 05:32:33 Demosthenex: use scant-to-registers then 05:33:07 scan-to-strings, rather 05:33:21 yeah, i'm taking about scan-to-strings :P 05:34:14 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-226-183.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:34:32 (multiple-value-bind (foo bar baz) (scan-to-strings regex ..)) == (do-register-groups (foo bar baz) regex) 05:34:43 [announce] xong 1.2 is released http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com 05:34:51 dto: \o/ 05:34:55 \o/ 05:35:06 it appears i need to look at register-groups-bind 05:35:18 :) 05:35:40 Demosthenex: also, anywhere you're using a string regex literal you can use the more flexible create-regex function 05:35:43 /^\ 05:35:51 specially if you want multiline and case sensitive matching 05:37:11 but sometimes :multi-line-mode is broken, so I end up doing (scan-to-strings regex (replace #\Space #\Newline input-buffer)) ;-( 05:37:26 s/replace/substitute/ 05:38:55 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:58 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:39:54 fusss: i've done that kind of thing in perl over the years 05:40:03 i don't like matching across linefeeds 05:40:18 in this case, i'm matching a paragraph line for line, and raising an error if it doesnt' match 05:40:29 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 05:40:34 "The problem with suckage is that it ensues often" -- Milk Man Dan 05:41:04 "The problem with regex is that suckage ensues" -- Rahul Jain 05:41:41 both logic bugs and performance embarrassments 05:42:12 woohoo. now prototypes includes documentation 05:43:39 fusss: arg, the register-groups-bind makes local vars. i'm trying to set object slots. 05:44:24 huh? typing #\w in firefox autocompletes weitz.de; what about wikipedia? wordpress? washingtonpost? what are they using, an idlea-prediction trie data structure? sites you should visit more often if you were smart, etc. 05:46:01 jawhite [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:46:05 Demosthenex: if you used META, you could embed the slot setting in your pattern :) 05:46:22 and it's not that different from regexp 05:46:28 META? 05:46:34 except that you can do some CFG kind of stuff 05:46:38 minion: meta-sexp 05:46:38 meta-sexp: meta-sexp is a META parser generator using LL(1) grammars with s-expressions. http://www.cliki.net/meta-sexp 05:46:46 minion: meta 05:46:46 meta: A recursive-descent parser as described in in a paper by Henry Baker: Pragmatic Parsing in Common Lisp; or, putting defmacro on steroids (ACM Lisp Pointers, vol. http://www.cliki.net/meta 05:46:55 oooo 05:47:05 the original META uses read-macros 05:47:10 (do-register-register-groups (login-name password email) (regex input) (make-instance 'user :login-name login-name ..)) 05:47:23 google the paper name and you'll find the paper 05:47:48 rahul: he can just call setf from within the body of do-register-groups 05:47:54 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has joined #lisp 05:47:58 regex and file processing should be trivial 05:48:43 regexp file processing is fairly trivial 05:48:57 until you're managing multiple generations of output from vendors whose output you can't control 05:49:32 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:14 or you have complex structure in the file 05:52:36 or you have simple structure in the file, and you need to specify all kinds of crap in the regex that doesn't help you parse it 05:52:57 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-146-194.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:54:21 rahul: i've got normalizign the files down fine. a prep function returns a list of packet structures 05:54:23 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-179-38.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:54:33 heh 05:54:36 *rahul* facepalm 05:54:45 i have a fast ID function to identify the generation of the packet data, and then instantiate an object which matches. 05:54:53 Demosthenex: you are a perfect example of jwz's quote on regex 05:55:02 the object is responsible for parsing its own data from the packet 05:55:21 you're adding more regexes because you're using regexes 05:55:32 i hadn't gotten into regexps yet 05:55:39 the prep function is pure lisp 05:55:54 then I don't see why you need regex to do the rest of it 05:55:55 its a typical loop macro running an event driven parser 05:56:27 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 05:56:27 part of it is my perl background, i look at extracting a series of words from a line, i'd normally use a regexp. 05:56:32 you're just splitting a whitespace separated string, right? 05:56:36 NO. 05:56:36 *rahul* facepalm 05:56:41 and thats the problem. 05:56:56 the format is inconsistent. they line up key/value pairs separated by large volumes of whitespace... 05:57:03 so? 05:57:09 in pairs. (ie "key: value key: value") 05:57:27 ah, well, when value1 is longer than the whitespace, they use a single space before key2. 05:57:32 and sometimes keys have spaces in the name 05:57:37 and sometimes the value has a space in it 05:57:43 its "human legible" 05:57:53 i'm basically screen scraping a mainframe report 05:58:23 longer than what whitespace? 05:58:25 so i'm using a regexp to ensure identifying traits are present, and to extract the pieces i need. 05:58:38 between value1 and key2 05:58:41 you're using a regexp to figure out which parser to use? 05:58:50 no, the regexp is the parser. 05:59:15 shoafb [n=The_Doct@dhcp-168-105-232-71.wireless.manoa.hawaii.edu] has joined #lisp 05:59:38 ok, here's a good one. "key1: value1 key2: value2" where multiple spaces separate everything, i can split on more than one space. 05:59:43 if value1 is longer than the space between value1 and key2, then the space between value1 and key2 is a single space? 05:59:46 Hey guys, I'm taking a course over at UH Manoa, and am really stuck with something, could any one spare a few minutes to help with a reflection problem? 05:59:46 and that preserves single spaces in keys and values 05:59:53 i've been tryint the following 06:00:05 then along comes a long value "key1: value111111111111111111111111111111111 key2: value2" 06:00:12 suddenly two spaces no longer works 06:00:13 (setq (intern (concatenate 'string "corridor-" (write-to-string x))) 5) 06:00:20 where x already has a value.. 06:00:25 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:00:32 AND if i try to split on a single space, i bork the keys/values 06:00:42 Demosthenex: you seem very confused 06:00:51 nope. the data sucks 06:00:53 Demosthenex: you will always split on a single space using that algo 06:00:54 but the listener comes back with an error that says that the intern statement is not a symbol 06:00:57 again, its supposed to be "human legible" 06:01:13 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport2.museum.moma.org] has quit [] 06:01:27 rahul: you can't split on single space because key or value could have a single space 06:01:30 shoafb: maybe you want to setf the symbol-value? 06:01:46 Demosthenex: but you will always split on a single space 06:01:55 Demosthenex: because any value is longer than a single space 06:02:03 rahul: I'd like to run a loop initiating properties for all of these similarly named variables... but i'd like to be able to not write them all out 06:02:06 unless it's a single letter 06:02:30 shoafb: but you're writing out all kinds of other crap 06:02:39 rahul: like i have corridor-1 through 13... 06:02:42 shoafb: why don't you use a data structure? 06:02:57 shoafb: yeah, that's a red flag that you're using the wrong tool for the job. 06:02:57 shoafb: (setf corridors (list 1 2 3 4 5 6... 13)) 06:03:14 Demosthenex: protip: split on : 06:03:19 "key1: value111111111111111111111111111111111 key2: value2" -> '("key1" "value1" "key2" "value2") where key or value could contain a space. 06:03:38 Ralith: for 90% it'd work. i found errors in output where : is missing 06:03:49 or i tried hinging on CAPS because most keys are caps... 06:03:52 rahul: so that is like an array of corridors subscripted by the elements in that list? 06:04:03 Demosthenex: and key1: value1 blah key2: would treat blah as part of key2 06:04:11 rahul: I come from the imperative language world, and am amazingly confused 06:04:13 shoafb: well, that's a list 06:04:18 shoafb: this is imperative... 06:04:21 *rahul* boggles 06:04:24 Demosthenex: if : is missing from some keys and values may contain spaces then it is unparsable. 06:04:33 Ralith: exactly. 06:04:34 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-98-116-202-61.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:37 which is where regexp's come in 06:04:40 no. 06:04:41 rahul: from the C world then... lol 06:04:41 shoafb: #(1 2 3 4... 13) would be an array 06:04:42 it's unparsable. 06:04:51 regexps are not magic break-the-universe wands 06:04:53 its consistent within a given version of input 06:05:04 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-226-183.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:05:07 regexps ARE magic break-the-universe wands 06:05:07 it's unparsable 06:05:14 they can take things that work fine and break them 06:05:20 :P 06:05:34 so for version X I can do "^key1:\\s+(\\S+)\\s+key2:\\s+(\\S+)\\s*$" and get my values, because i already know the keys 06:05:45 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:59 and i have to maintain the version data to remap in case the format changes. 06:06:42 Demosthenex: you're writing regexp and expecting to maintain this program in the future? 06:06:50 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:06:50 what is \s anyawy? 06:06:59 rahul: \s is whitespace, \S is not whitespace 06:07:06 ()'s capture 06:07:17 the output from that would be a vector of two strings 06:07:26 fusss [n=fusss@60.241.1.206] has joined #lisp 06:07:36 which i'll coerce to a lsit 06:07:42 Demosthenex: (loop for i = 0 then (position-if #'whitespacep string :start i) 06:08:35 wha? 06:08:46 a vector that you'll coerce into a list? 06:08:57 #( "first match" "second match") 06:08:58 *rahul* watches his head spin 06:09:01 don't think that's how coersion works. 06:09:10 not my fault cl-ppcre does vectors, i never would 06:09:11 why would you try to get a list after having a vector? 06:09:18 Demosthenex: it should do vectors 06:09:24 I'm interested to look at some (statically) typed lisp dialects, is there any #lisp would recommend looking at? 06:09:31 you shouldn't be expecting arbitrarily complex input with regex 06:09:40 whoppix: ML 06:09:47 i don't care if its a list or a vector. ;] 06:09:56 i'm going to assign it out to some slots and be done with it 06:09:59 rahul, ok, I'll have a look, thanks. 06:10:21 whoppix: the cons cell is fundamentally incompatible with static typing, by the way 06:10:24 rahul: i'm not trying to match the world. i'm using a discreet pair of keys and checking for return values, and raising an error if it fails... 06:10:35 whoppix: so any statically typed lisp does not look like a lisp 06:10:37 because i can't trust the data to let me split 06:10:44 rahul, how does ML solve that problem? 06:10:54 whoppix: it doesn't 06:11:38 whoppix: you pattern match instead of accessing cars and cdrs 06:12:33 whoppix: and you disallow programs that are "too difficult" to prove correct 06:12:40 rahul, ah, ok. I'm working on a little pet language in my spare time, and I was planned to use a very LISP-like syntax (with all the macro goodness) but mix in some features from languages like Haskell, like a static type checker, currying, pattern matching, possibly lazy evaluation. 06:12:49 if the halting problem rears its ugly head, we halt the compilation 06:13:16 whoppix: lisp syntax is pretty much fundamentally opposed to static type checking 06:13:43 whoppix: you can't just allow people to write whatever syntax they want and THEN process it 06:13:53 rahul, hm, too bad. I find it very aesthetic, because it unifies all sorts of different language constructs so nicely. 06:13:57 you need to ensure that the syntax is right before you finish reading it 06:14:32 whoppix: static typing is about distinguishing, not unifying 06:14:32 rahul, hm, yeah. But I'll look at ML, perhaps there are some things I can steal. 06:14:55 whoppix: in the dynamic state, everything is unified. everything is allowed. you figure out what to do when you get to it. 06:15:13 rahul, yeah, I can see how that doesn't work too well with static type checking. 06:15:30 whoppix: in the static state, everything is distinguished. everything must be pre-defined. you determine what is allowed from the start. 06:16:06 rahul, I only really want a syntatic unification, though, so that the user can define new constructs like "if" and "case" - I think I can combine that with static type checking. 06:16:14 whoppix: haskell might be more interesting. look at type classes. they're kinda dynamic in a static framework. 06:16:55 whoppix: the problem is that syntax can contain anything at all 06:17:07 you can have any kind of literal 06:17:31 including code you read from another file 06:17:40 or generate based on parsing some other file, like a C header 06:18:14 meltingwacks [n=45ff6a86@69.163.177.247] has joined #lisp 06:18:15 "< rahul> whoppix: you can't just allow people to write whatever syntax they want and THEN process it" why not? 06:18:25 lambda 06:18:54 crimes against taste 06:19:02 rahul, well, I didn't want to go as far as to say "everything is a list", like lisp does it, but rather use a similar syntax that still allows function to have a strictly defined arity and so on. so if I define "foo" to be of arity 2, (foo "bar" "baz") would be valid, while (foo "bar") would be a compile-time-error. 06:19:05 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:20:53 pkhuong: because the code could have anything in it... something that your parser didn't know about 06:21:06 whoppix: since when did lisp say that everything is a list? 06:21:12 whoppix: only cons cells and NIL are lists 06:21:16 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:21:22 rahul, I got that impression from a few tutorials I read through. 06:21:32 whoppix: that's only two of the dozens of data types predefined in the standard 06:21:34 But yeah, I'm not really much into LISP yet. 06:21:45 yeah, you're even calling it "LISP" 06:21:47 whoppix: not a lot of us are into LISP 06:21:50 >:3 06:21:52 which stopped happening in the 70s 06:21:56 rahul: so if you were going to beat me around the ears soundly and tell me the lisp way to handle that, do you know a shortcut to split repetitive whitespace and grab the data? 06:22:02 rahul, what is preferred, CLISP? 06:22:14 whoppix: CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp 06:22:28 Demosthenex: position-if #'whitespace 06:22:42 sykopomp, oh, ok. just "common lisp" then, I guess. 06:23:14 whoppix: well, you're talking about wanting to write something that's like a lisp, which might mean the family of languages. 06:23:22 which includes elisp and scheme. 06:23:29 and ML and Haskell 06:23:36 (if you're gonna put scheme in there) 06:23:40 -!- shoafb [n=The_Doct@dhcp-168-105-232-71.wireless.manoa.hawaii.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:44 and Dylan! 06:23:54 ah, yes, I wanted to look at dylan as well. 06:24:23 rahul: since we're limiting this to lisp syntax, we could focus on elisp/scheme/cl, I think. 06:24:59 sykopomp: well, you're talking about very different syntax even within that group 06:25:02 Actually, ML seems to have quite a lot of the things I envisioned to have in my language. 06:25:10 whoppix: right, it does 06:25:24 whoppix: that's why I'm directing you to Haskell to see even more 06:25:27 rahul: lisp1/2 semantics aside, it's not that different, unless you feel combative. 06:25:43 gruseom [n=daniel@h-64-105-143-250.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:45 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["Asta-la byebye"] 06:25:51 rahul, yeah, I know some haskell, thats where I got some of the ideas from in the first place. 06:25:56 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 06:26:20 sykopomp: shrug, it's fundamentally different. code as lists of symbols vs code as parsed data 06:26:44 rahul: lists of atoms. 06:26:59 well 06:27:03 lists of *stuff* 06:27:11 "atoms" means stuff :) 06:27:19 no, because lists aren't atoms :P 06:27:20 list of things that are not lists 06:27:27 yeah, nested 06:27:58 either way, you need to actually process the code to get scheme syntax 06:28:23 it needs to know about what variables refer to what bindings and such 06:28:48 hmm, although I suppose that could be determined lazily... 06:29:46 still, you don't know what the first syntax element of (let ...) is until you've processed the code around it 06:30:15 How good is SWIG+CFFI for C++? 06:30:31 someone could have done (let ((let ...)) around it, which changes what scheme considers the syntactic representation of the LET forms inside of it 06:30:41 Ralith: considering CFFI doesn't bind to C++? I would imagine pretty terrible. 06:30:50 sykopomp: lern2swig 06:31:28 half of the purpose of swig is to autogenerate C wrappers of C++ 06:31:39 (the other half being to generate foo wrappers of C) 06:32:09 then it's as good as the C wrappers of the C++ are... 06:32:21 that's very helpful 06:32:35 you're the one who knows the answer to that 06:32:45 oh my bad 06:32:51 that wasn't actually helpful at all 06:33:38 I'll refund your check next week 06:33:57 much appreciated 06:37:11 Ralith: btw, the SWIG docs disagree with you 06:37:18 great 06:37:25 do they give you a reasonable idea of its quality? 06:37:27 so try to get the facts before you spout shit 06:37:35 yes 06:37:42 and they can give you one, too 06:37:46 still not helpful 06:38:02 you've got a ways to go yet 06:38:19 seriously, if you don't want to, just don't respond :P 06:38:35 seriously, if you don't want answers, just don't ask 06:39:13 I will bear that in mind 06:39:18 you don't need to be a pompous ass about your own ignorance 06:40:29 yeah, you've got that covered :P 06:45:17 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 06:47:59 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.124] has joined #lisp 06:51:38 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-253-142-92.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:56:58 -!- meltingwacks [n=45ff6a86@69.163.177.247] has quit ["CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)"] 06:57:20 shouldn't a CLIM command with 2 required args prompt for the other arg when you execute the gesture for one of them? 07:02:14 Why, oh why, does elisp not have DEFPARAMETER. Grrrr. 07:02:40 heh 07:02:48 because it has setq 07:03:36 (defmacro defparameter (variable value) `(setq ,variable ,value)) 07:04:07 Yeah. But that's gross. 07:04:21 that's dynamic scoping 07:04:25 gigamonkey: gives you a dynamic variable. 07:04:39 I don't think dynamic scoping has anything to do with it. 07:04:45 sure it does 07:04:49 How so? 07:04:53 there's no confusion 07:05:08 setq always creates a dynamic variable if there is none 07:05:09 because setq in elisp has basically the same effect as defparameter in cl, no? 07:05:17 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:44 Sure. But it's spelled wrong. ;-) 07:05:45 and there are no lexical variables in elisp, so you couldn't be accidentally wanting to refer to a lexical variable :) 07:06:04 rahul: you can lexical-let, can't you?... 07:06:15 sykopomp: that doesn't create a lexical variable, tho 07:06:34 certainly fooled -me- :) 07:06:42 it creates a dynamic variable with a unique name that is substituted in lexically 07:08:31 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-98-116-202-61.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 07:08:37 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:08:52 snearch [n=olaf@e179129009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:12:25 My point was that there's nothing about dynamic scoping that precludes having a DEFPARAMETER, as your macro demonstrates. And it might have been nice, to make code a bit more clear, to have it. 07:12:59 sure, it's a good way to signal intent 07:13:05 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:13:07 and to have a place to put documentation 07:13:54 (defmacro defparameter (variable value &optional doc) `(progn (defvar ,variable nil ,doc) (setq ,variable ,value))) might be a better implementation 07:15:48 might be worth adding to cl.el 07:16:49 -!- Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-73-106.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["~"] 07:21:05 oh and it adds the bindings to something that tracks them for closing over 07:21:09 it's pretty wild 07:21:17 Hmmm. Though I wonder what the behavior should be for buffer-local variables. 07:21:24 that lexical-let macro 07:21:54 gigamonkey: hmm maybe setq-default is the right thing 07:26:48 sykopomp: fabrice bellard, the ffmpeg guy, is also the guy who calculated the 1000 billionth digit of pi :-O 07:26:49 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host72.190-230-93.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:26:58 fusss: !! :-o 07:27:11 fusss: mathematicians have no taste for APIs, amirite? 07:27:17 :P 07:27:25 urite 07:27:38 you don't interact with numbers, after all 07:27:48 sykopomp, nor do I, and I consider myself a programmer. :-) 07:27:51 they just exist. as platonic ideals. 07:27:56 (but I can usually tell a good API from a bad one, though.) 07:27:56 I mean, look at what they did to poor Haskell. 07:28:05 what's wrong with Haskell now? 07:28:08 so much potential, but the language itself is like perl with a fancy typing system :\ 07:28:22 UnrdblCmlCs 07:28:23 so grab the original Lisp sources to Miranda 07:28:34 unsafePerformIO is quite readable 07:28:54 tic: at least -one- of their identifiers is :) 07:28:58 I <3 Marlais 07:29:29 ugh, not Marlias, Merlin, miranda interpreter; marlais is a dylan 07:30:06 it's the only identifier you need :P 07:31:47 rahul: that may be. Anyway, goodnight, everyone. 07:34:06 night 07:35:10 night 07:36:18 -!- jawhite [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 07:36:50 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-41.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:37:19 hm, perhaps I'll scrap my pet language, ML pretty much seems to do most the things I want, and "curry" has the logic & constraint programming stuff. 07:37:21 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:05 (which was kinda the most interesting thing in my lang, I think - mixing of logic & functional programming styles) 07:38:28 whoppix: why ML and not haskell? 07:38:52 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:54 sykopomp, well, yeah, haskell too. 07:39:20 ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:40:11 good morning 07:40:45 whoppix: well, lisp has logic and constraint programming available as libraries, too 07:41:07 mixing them is a curious concept... 07:41:09 nekobaka [n=baka@c-67-181-80-137.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:43 they seem to me to be two subtly different ways to achieve subtly different goals 07:42:07 rahul, I guess, but after programming prolog for a bit, I thought it would be a nice thing to have. There are those parts of the program which could be perfectly expressed in a logic language, and then there are those parts which are more of a declarative nature. 07:42:31 prolog is a declarative language 07:42:40 usually the first one that comes to mind 07:42:46 I guess declarative was the wrong word, perhaps "imperative" fits better. 07:42:54 heh 07:43:00 well, those are basically opposites 07:43:16 declarative means you say what you want to achieve 07:43:29 or you describe what the parts of the system are like 07:43:44 imperative means you list the steps to take in order to achieve the goal 07:44:05 *sykopomp* doesn't think that describes two different concepts at all. 07:44:12 billitch_ [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:14 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:44:14 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 07:44:17 rahul, well, but functional languages are often said to be declarative, yet they're different from logic languages like prolog. 07:44:35 whoppix: right, it's functional declarations vs. logical declarations 07:44:39 rahul, but you know, I'm not good with terminology. 07:44:41 well both declarative and imparitive languages: have methods for doing either 07:44:57 dmiles_afk: _good_ ones do 07:45:12 like lisp is an imperative language with defmacro for building declarative languages 07:45:30 and prolog has cuts and stuff to cause imperative control flow 07:45:45 rahul, but what I was thinking about where those parts of the program that can be well expressed by logical declarations and deductions, and those that cannot be. like determining to which clients a message is to be broadcasted vs. actually taking the data and stuffing it on the socket. 07:46:07 whoppix: sure. that's what lisp is all about. mixing paradigms. 07:46:23 lisp is one big ball of mixed metaphors 07:46:27 hrm. if i have an alist, can't i step through it and assign the variable named by the key to the value, deriving the local symbol using string-upcase find-symbol? doesn't seem to like setf when i loop it 07:46:38 Demosthenex: no 07:46:49 intern vs find-symbol? 07:46:51 Demosthenex: you want a data structure, not local variables 07:47:00 Demosthenex: no. local variables don't exist at run time 07:47:05 they get compiled away 07:47:26 use hashtables 07:47:26 Demosthenex: keep a hash table of the associations or maybe a CLOS class and use slot-value 07:47:27 i have an alist, i wanted to move to object slots 07:47:42 then move it to object slots, not to variables 07:48:02 you start off with the symbols, jeez! 07:48:06 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7577f3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:10 ok, but given key has the same string name as the object slot, can i step through the alist and intern the key to set the slot? 07:48:26 you're going about this so indirectly 07:48:35 yes 07:48:42 or you can skip the generation of the alist in the first place 07:48:47 i'm trying to avoid enumerating by hand the movement of the alist into the slots. 07:49:04 and just set the slots as you get them 07:49:16 (setf (slot-value object (intern (string-upcase key))) value) 07:49:44 and you probably want to be explicit about the package for intern, too 07:49:51 i think the error i'm getting is that funcall doesnt' like setf 07:49:52 otherwise it will end up somewhere random 07:50:00 funcall?? 07:50:03 *rahul* boggles 07:50:06 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06ec2c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:09 good morning 07:50:15 eh, may be specific to the exampl ei was coding 07:50:35 how are you ending up where you need funcall? 07:50:46 you're getting slots at run time, not functions 07:51:56 (loop for item in alist 07:51:56 do (setf (intern (string-upcase (car item))) (cdr item)))) 07:52:07 i was testing in local vars before i threw it in a constructor 07:52:15 huh? 07:52:27 it's going into a constructor directly in the first place? 07:52:28 i was working in repl instead of the object code? 07:52:31 *rahul* facepalm 07:53:59 the object code can be in the repl 07:54:23 in fact, where else will you be when the object code is loaded? 07:54:42 i was experimenting on the repl with scatch code, not the object 07:54:55 well, that's one mistake 07:54:57 the error i get is that (setf inherit) isn't a function, but i'm not missing parens 07:55:13 (setf inherit) is a list 07:55:17 not a function 07:55:24 er, not inherit 07:55:33 (setf (intern (string-upcase (car it..... 07:55:40 well duh 07:55:42 that's how setf works 07:55:51 you're setting the place defined by the accessor (intern ....) 07:56:06 intern does not define a place 07:56:27 thus i considered find-symbol, and funcall of setf 07:56:35 *rahul* boggles 07:56:48 you're still in the perl mindset 07:56:53 absolutely 07:57:00 and still trying despite the odds 07:57:01 if your code doesn't work, try another layer of nonsense to translate it 07:57:28 perl is gr8 07:57:45 yeah, exactly, it's as unreadable as that 07:58:04 compressed is fine with me. 07:58:18 I use gzip when I want something compressed. 07:58:24 *crink* 's head with gzip 07:58:27 the code as it stands works, i was hoping to avoid large scale redundant code and alot of typing in tons of (setf (slot-value object slotA) (assoc "slotA" alist)) (lather rinse repeat for slotB-Z) 07:58:43 *rahul* facepalm 07:58:59 you like that word 07:59:06 Demosthenex: (apply #'make-instance 'class slots) 07:59:08 heh 07:59:12 no, I don't 07:59:15 I hate it 07:59:25 hate is like 07:59:53 Demosthenex: intern the slot names as you parse them and build a plist instead of an alist 07:59:54 intern the alist keys into class slots for make-instance. 08:00:18 yeah, that wasnt' how it was designed. i'd have to go back and redo other items. 08:00:36 yay for regex making your control flow messy :) 08:00:39 my objects only take a data packet as an initial argument, the "constructor" 08:00:47 's job is to parse out the slots from the packet 08:00:56 really has little to do with regexp 08:01:22 if i use split, i'll be looking for a way to say (multiple-assign (a nil b c nil d) (split line)) 08:01:23 if you did it with loop, you could just collect things as you get them 08:01:35 huh? 08:02:11 what is split? 08:02:22 psuedocode. 08:02:28 and I already showed you how to do multiple-assign 08:02:29 cl-ppcre provides a split funciton 08:02:32 setf values 08:02:34 i know there's another in asdf 08:03:00 if regex is causing you trouble, you look for a different regex functoin 08:03:01 yep, i've got that 08:03:02 yay 08:03:34 and yet, i'm still specifying my list in multiple places. i was tring to whittle down the number of times i enter these field names, or any problems with positional parameters 08:03:40 (loop for .... do collect (intern key :my-package) and collect value 08:06:53 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:07:07 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:16 for start = 0 then end for key-start = (position-if-not #'whitespacep string :start start) for key-end = (position #\: string :start key-start) for value-start = (position-if-not #'whitespacep string :start key-end) value-end = (position-if .... I dunno what's supposed to go here because I haven't figured out your description of the syntax) for key = (subseq string key-start key-end) and value = (subseq string value-start value-end) 08:08:13 and you think that's clearer than a regexp? 08:08:27 or more maintainable? 08:08:56 yes 08:08:59 if you put line breaks 08:09:05 and it encompasses ALL your formats 08:09:09 for one key.... 08:09:19 trebor_dki [n=user@130.83.156.186] has joined #lisp 08:09:20 for one key of what? 08:09:39 oh, for start = 0 then value-end 08:10:06 that's separating on whitespace and returing one key/value pair 08:10:11 no 08:10:14 it's a loop 08:10:17 duh 08:10:34 that's loop syntax... where else is that going to go? 08:11:01 that's one huge loop construct 08:11:03 ok, i got that, but it was looking forward for one key/value 08:11:04 infidel2 [n=infidel2@pool-173-58-73-242.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:06 it doesn't return a pair. it collects all them into one plist 08:11:15 Demosthenex: each iteration it does that, of coutse 08:11:21 should it get 2 per iteration? 08:11:43 why not split on space, and just read it? cl-ppcre:split 08:11:46 you know, you're right. for stuff thats easy to parse, that'd be a breeze 08:11:51 madnificent: because that's wrong 08:11:51 or intern it, as you whish 08:12:05 madnificent: keys and values can have spaces 08:12:15 my issue here is the data is inconsistent, and i'm having to customize parsing for most each line of input in a paragraph record. 08:12:26 rahul: when there are pipes around it? 08:12:27 as well as potential conversion to integers, type checking, etc. 08:12:28 Demosthenex: well, I found the consistency 08:12:29 madnificent: no 08:12:34 madnificent: just like that 08:12:48 Demosthenex: so do that in the loop body or whenever 08:12:53 rahul: how are they in your format? 08:13:01 madnificent: it's not my format 08:13:19 rahul: so, the spaces are escaped, right? 08:13:24 madnificent: it's just stuff like something is: a value and another thing is: a value 08:13:28 madnificent: no 08:13:29 i'd still have to ID those lines where key's have spaces in their name, or values have spaces, which trips up whitespace detection. 08:13:42 Demosthenex: no you don't 08:13:54 Demosthenex: I ignore spaces when parsing keys 08:13:55 rahul: so how thu fuck are they limited then? 08:14:02 see, this was working GREAT with cl-ppcre:split with a delimiter of 2 or more spaces " {2,}" 08:14:15 madnificent: colons after keys and multiple spaces after values, maybe 08:14:17 until i started getting records where they overran the first value into the delimiter and screw it up 08:14:29 overran? 08:14:43 into what delimiter? 08:14:48 good record, "key1: value1 key2: value2" 08:14:53 *madnificent* doesn't get what you're doing 08:14:59 Demosthenex: so it isn't just lisp syntax, right? 08:15:03 bad record "key1: value1111111111111111111111111111 key2: value2" 08:15:06 madnificent: no, it's a mess 08:15:08 no, i'm dealing with poorly organized data 08:15:18 Demosthenex: what's the definition of the input format? 08:15:22 where key/value could contain a single space 08:15:28 text, ala mainframe 08:15:39 Demosthenex: so what do you do with this is a key: this is a really really looong value and here is another key: value 08:15:40 i'm parsing a "human legible" report for data bits 08:16:12 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:16:13 mainframes usually do not do stuff like this 08:16:18 rahul: that broke my split on 2+ spaces parsing... which is why i'm looking at alternatives 08:16:27 Demosthenex: and what is the alternative there? 08:16:29 Demosthenex: is each key/value pair on a new line? 08:16:39 madnificent: no 08:16:44 madnificent: nothing sensible is done in his format 08:16:46 i said ala mainframe. its old reports. no, they scruntch u 08:16:46 p 08:17:03 Demosthenex: mainframe implies sometihng that's NOT like this 08:17:26 rahul: the way i had it, cl-ppcre:split on 2+ spaces, then looped through with cddr and matched the key in a cond table, setf and make changes (ie: parse-integer) or errored out on a key i didn't know. 08:17:29 mainframe would imply end-of-record indicators 08:17:41 i simply mean mainframe era 08:17:56 text only reports, written by a poor programmer or maybe an operator 08:18:00 Demosthenex: this is more unix era than mainframe era brain damaage 08:18:03 (cl-ppcre:split "\\w+\\s*:\\s+\\w+" foo) doesn't split into key-value pairs-strings? 08:18:24 madnificent: hell no 08:18:26 not consistently 08:18:29 madnificent: that doesn't even come close 08:18:31 where does that fail? 08:18:37 keys can have whitespace in the name 08:18:43 madnificent: everywhere where there are spaces 08:18:49 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:18:51 values can have whitespace 08:18:52 but only keys can have whitespaces in the name? 08:18:54 ah 08:19:04 but records are split with 2+ spaces then? 08:19:10 BUT the delimiter i was using was 2+ spaces, because keys & values had only singles... 08:19:12 madnificent: except when they're not 08:19:18 that worked until it failed on a recent one 08:19:22 rahul: and when are they not 08:19:33 where the value overran the area allotted and they divided it with one space 08:19:39 madnificent: then God kills a kitten 08:20:04 Demosthenex: I don't understand what you're saying 08:20:11 you know what, i'm doing this wrong. i'll just go back and preprocess the test looking for that line, and add a space for the key that's giving me trouble. 08:20:15 Demosthenex: and how do you propose to find the delimiting point between key and value in that case? 08:20:24 rahul: regexp makes that easy. 08:20:30 hahah 08:20:32 not at all 08:20:36 instead of fixing the parser, i'll fix the data. 08:20:57 Demosthenex: how will you find the delimiting point with regexp when it looks like the non-delimiting points? 08:21:13 Demosthenex: you need something that regex is WORST at doing 08:21:13 because regexp extraction doesn't use split. 08:21:24 it uses regular expressions, however 08:21:36 I find it hard to believe that God would kill a kitten, as he seems to prefer sadistic murderers that torture helpless animals to death. 08:21:39 look, your keys are fixed 08:21:45 look for the keys, not for the delimiters 08:21:52 nunb [n=nundan@217.133.104.225] has joined #lisp 08:22:10 Zhivago: ok, God tells a deranged man to torture a kitten 08:22:20 i was doing that... when i split properly with 2+ spaces, i would go down the list returned by pairs, and cond string match known keys and extract. 08:22:28 yep, i have to enumerate out everything, but that ok 08:22:38 because it was organized. 08:22:54 and the default was to signal an error for keys that it didn't know. 08:23:04 rahul: I was referring to the kittens. 08:24:26 Demosthenex: no, not at all 08:24:39 Demosthenex: you have a serious problem at reading comprehension :( 08:24:52 which is ironic because you're trying to parse a wacky format 08:25:37 i'm a perl guy writing lisp, thats the core problem 08:25:47 i'm still learning lisp's gotchas 08:25:50 perl is the problem here. 08:25:56 and some basics are confusing. *shrug* i persist 08:25:58 Demosthenex: if you use META's string parsing variant, you can just do some OR stuff for finding a key and if you don't see the a key at the current position, just append the next word to the value 08:26:06 s/learning lisp// 08:26:25 lisp's gotchas are fixing your problems before you see them 08:26:35 ejs1 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has joined #lisp 08:26:48 i was curious about what you said regarding meta... but you think regexp's are greek... 08:27:11 regexps are best thought of as being sets of strings ... 08:27:34 If your problem can't be solved with a (potentially infinite) set of strings, then regexp is probably not the answer. 08:28:31 if i wanted to take a *real* shortcut, i'd turn on named captures and do paragraph mode capture 08:28:35 but thats perl's way, not lisps 08:28:41 wha? 08:28:45 and cl-ppcre is funky in that mode, and unreliable. 08:28:54 I don't even know what that means 08:28:58 (i tried it a while back) 08:29:02 right. named capture. 08:29:06 . . . 08:29:12 and that fixes your parsing problem how? 08:29:18 It means that he is confusing regex with something else. 08:29:22 you're still obsessed with regex techniques 08:29:48 milanj [n=milan@93.87.166.147] has joined #lisp 08:30:55 given input "key1: value1 key2: value2", and regexp "\\S+\\s+(?\\S+)\\s+\\S+\\s+(?\\S+)", you'd get back approximately (("key1" . "value1)("key2" . "value2")) 08:31:17 named captures do away with positional parameters when using regexp to capture data from strings 08:31:47 Or, you could just parse it. 08:32:24 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:32:26 techincally that is parsing 08:32:39 has anyone already quoted the "new you've got two problems" quote? 08:32:40 but then i have an alist and i have to go back and set my object's properties. 08:34:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:21 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:36:12 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 08:38:39 sykopomp: I've referred to it 08:38:56 sykopomp: I think he has 4 or 5 problems by now 08:40:24 *shrug* what can i do 08:40:35 this is what happens when you can't control the input format 08:40:50 no 08:40:57 this is what happens when you use REGEX!!!! 08:41:02 *rahul* facepalms Demosthenex 08:41:16 this is SUCH an EASY format to parse 08:41:34 if you don't find a key, append this character to the value being collected 08:41:48 if you find a key, skip whitespace following the colon 08:42:18 and if you find a key, strip whitespace at the end of the value that was being collected, and assign the slot ofthe object you are initializing 08:42:37 Demosthenex: if you want me to write the code, please send me a check for $500 08:43:07 I will do it in a way that only requires you to define the key names once and allows you to add more keys 08:43:35 i'll keep that in mind ;] 08:43:52 actually, I'll make the key name a slot option in the defclass for a custom metaclass 08:44:27 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 08:45:11 shoafb [n=The_Doct@98.150.247.183] has joined #lisp 08:46:20 and make-instance will take a parameter that is either a string or a stream to take the values from 08:48:29 why is using #'eval so evil ? 08:49:36 eval tends to be expensive, and there are usually better ways to do it. 08:50:18 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:51:07 alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has joined #lisp 08:51:24 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.6] has joined #lisp 08:53:43 billitch: the same reason why a nuclear bomb is evil 08:53:44 so we have replace, and substitute, but no replace-string? (given i was looking for an alternative to cl-ppcre:regex-replace) 08:54:03 billitch: I like to think of it from the perspective of a less dynamic language: If your program has to call its own compiler during normal operation, you're probably either writing an IDE or doing something wrong. 08:54:04 Demosthenex: setf subseq? 08:54:09 Demosthenex: what are you trying to do? 08:54:30 Demosthenex: and how on earth would that help you find a key in your string? 08:54:46 totally different. 08:55:55 http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/strings.html#manip says that "replace-all" (which is substring replacement not char) didn't exist 08:56:02 rahul: thanks for helping me a bit earlier, I was wondering though, if I could trouble you for a good reference on how to use classes and objects 08:56:21 minion: amop 08:56:21 amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 08:56:46 shoafb: since AMOP shows how to implement CLOS as a CLOS program, it's a good example of a CLOS program 08:57:08 and at the same time, you learn how to extend CLOS's functionality with your own modifications 08:57:52 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:58:03 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:59:07 clhs #a 08:59:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhl.htm 08:59:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 08:59:28 rahul: is OO a recommended methodology for this language? or is sticking to the linked-list cons cell model more the desired approach? 09:00:37 shoafb: not sticking to any one method is desired 09:00:38 i know functional, imperative, oo, declarative programming paradigms. but linked-list cons cell paradigm is new to me. 09:00:43 heh 09:00:49 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@wavelan-6.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 09:01:13 shoafb: lisp is a language that allows you to add your own paradigms to the language 09:01:35 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.154] has joined #lisp 09:01:43 the best use of lisp is in extending the language with the operators that let you express your program exactly how you and your users think about it 09:02:02 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179129009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:02:53 rahul: oh god, what will I do with the freedom... so not used to that, I can see this requires far more elegant planning than the raw hacking about most C-type languages encourage 09:02:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:03:31 :) 09:03:45 shoafb: raw hacking is ALSO an acceptable paradigm 09:03:53 haha 09:04:00 in fact, PAIP feels a lot like raw hacking 09:04:15 put together some primitives and then play around until your program works right 09:04:21 s/works/feels/ even 09:04:50 since there's no compile-edit-crash cycle, nothing is there to slow you down 09:05:02 you change the program while it's running to add the functionality you want 09:05:18 the sort of "raw hacking" is also quite common, i believe...if that's what common REPL usage can be called 09:05:26 I really like the part about molding the language to fit your problem. I usually write pseudocode and start filling in the blanks as I go 09:05:34 I guess I just wish I had a clean reference on the material... my university is, well, lacking to euphamise the situation, and the only free resource I could find was "practical common lisp", which is somewhat inaccessable from someone trying to get up and running quickly 09:05:37 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-179-115.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:05:49 you don't even need to do things to get the program into the state where you were last... since you never did anything to remove that state 09:06:10 shoafb: look at the MIT videos at http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 09:06:12 shoafb: PCL is the most accessible for getting up and running quickly 09:06:15 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EFEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:18 *rahul* facepalm 09:06:31 shoafb: don't listen to Demosthenex. he is pointing you to the SLOWEST way to get up and running 09:06:44 its not common lisp specific ( i think its scheme), but its insight into the mindset. 09:06:44 Ralith: thanks. So isn't there something similarly wrong (to using #'eval with using 09:06:51 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:06:59 jawhite [n=jolyonw@124-168-182-74.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:07:14 macros invoking macros / macrolet 09:07:17 rahul: watching a few of those videos is what convinced me there was something to lisp worth learning, PCL i have too wasn't as accessible. 09:07:32 1. it teaches you a different language 2. it teaches you design of recursive functions primarily 09:07:33 PCL made sense later. 09:07:46 great. i hear "true blue lispers" hate loop anyway 09:07:49 PCL is good for getting up to speed with the language, but you still have to setup your Lisp environment. Which PCL doesn't really go through, if that is what shoafb was thinking of? 09:07:51 billitch: macros are also a big hammer 09:08:12 recursion is neat, but doestn' need to be used on every problem. 09:08:16 Demosthenex: you're just insisting on following all the wrong paths, aren't you? 09:08:25 Demosthenex: SICP _only_ uses recursion 09:08:36 Demosthenex: and "true blue" lispers LIKE loop 09:08:54 Demosthenex: and SICP will not teach you how to set up emacs+slime 09:09:28 Demosthenex: so please, quit while you're behind, and pay me $500 to solve this problem that will take you weeks to solve even after I've practically told you the code 09:09:42 This MIT link looks a lot like the class i'm currently taking, but this looks failry slow when I'm looking to write my assignment (don't mean to seem picky, I'll check it out as soon as this is done) 09:09:52 Demosthenex: and in a manner that anyone who knows regex should recognize 09:09:57 so when parsing a precise s-exp at run-time i should rather write a parser ? 09:10:17 billitch: not if lisp's parser is what you're going to write 09:10:36 shoafb, disregard the MIT link. What were the inaccessible parts of PCL, for you? 09:10:39 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:10:56 shoafb, maybe if you describe it closer, we could help you get through those passages. 09:10:58 ok that's what i thought, maybe my design is not so bad then, just checking =) 09:11:12 rahul: i'm sure you get alot of customers. 09:11:13 (i always knew eval was evil) 09:11:59 Demosthenex: shrug, I'm just offering because it's easy and I have a lot of down time between interviews right now 09:12:26 I mean, you'll probably get paid a lot more than $500 for doing this 09:12:27 i appreciate that, but what you haven't seen is this is one case in many (many!) 09:12:38 eh, not sure on the ROI yet 09:12:43 Demosthenex: that's ok. I've already solved all of the cases 09:13:07 I'm not even joking 09:13:11 i've built a layered system of objects with excellent logging/debugging and maintainability, and i had a parser fault i caught due to a bad case. 09:13:15 billitch: macros do not invoke the compiler during the normal operation of the program. 09:13:21 heh 09:13:36 Demosthenex: my solution is so simple that it doesn't need that 09:13:48 billitch: as such, that is completely unrelated, and in fact very useful. 09:13:50 so i can a) rewrite the whole parser, or b) patch the input data to fix the issue in one loop statement 09:14:01 heh 09:14:25 except you haven't figured out how to do b, and I've figured out how to do a and b in the same way you'd to b correctly 09:14:48 billitch: it's perfectly reasonable, however, to use #'read if you are in fact parsing sexps. 09:14:50 i've even got restarts in to handle keys that aren't currently known, and integrated the next generation object able to handle that case, without needing a new parser. 09:14:59 b's already done. 09:15:01 it ran 09:15:10 Ralith: so how do macros evaluate constructed forms ? 09:15:20 billitch: they don't 09:15:26 billitch: they transform them at compile time 09:15:35 billitch: just as it would be perfectly reasonable to use #'eval if you do in fact have a good reason to do so. 09:15:38 oh sure of course... 09:15:47 billitch: your code inside the macro is EXACTLY the code that gets executed 09:15:54 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-39-104.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:12 the compiler takes that result and converts it into machine code 09:16:15 minion: tell billitch about pcl 09:16:16 billitch: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:16:23 (after possibly macroexpanding further) 09:16:45 billitch: the above should help bring you up to speed on this sort of thing along with much other important stuff. 09:17:07 rahul: i only ask about specific questions because this channel has experienced folk that make you think. describing the entire problem i'm working on is just totally undoable online... 09:17:11 ok thanks for unmixing my head after too much macros with macrolet inside 09:17:12 but i appreciate the input 09:17:52 where's the video on using slime? that was a great hour long one. 09:18:00 dont worry that's just a stupid question that popped out of my tired sleepover'd brain 09:18:29 http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/reference-for-the-slimelispemacs-screencast/ 09:18:43 thats it! its a transcript with a link to the original video on using SLIME in emacs for sbcl 09:18:58 Demosthenex: that's interesting ! 09:20:18 they also have a slime cheatsheet in another post on the same site 09:20:31 (i just printed, hadn't seen before) 09:23:04 splittist [n=David@156-220.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:23:06 morning 09:23:39 rahul: this guy says i read the stuff in the right order. ;] http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/how-to-learn-lisp/ 09:25:09 i'm starting to love restarts... that is so slick 09:25:53 Demosthenex: it's nice to be able to learn the basics of the theory before getting into PCL, no doubt 09:26:07 but you'll start writing scheme in lisp instead of PHP in lisp 09:26:23 *laugh* 09:26:27 fyi you'd appreciate this. 09:26:27 rahul: so, in a list, for example '(a b c d e f) 09:26:30 PHP is probably closer to lisp in that way than scheme, because scheme code will blow up your lisp environment 09:26:55 PHP code will just be as unreadable and convoluted and inefficient as the same code in PHP :P 09:27:02 rahul: is this equivalent to (cons 'a (cons 'b (cons 'c...)))).. 09:27:22 shoafb: according to which equivalence test? 09:27:32 shoafb: it's EQUAL, but means something different 09:27:34 clhs ' 09:27:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dc.htm 09:27:36 the existing parser checks keys against a cond, and captures values to slots. if not found it raises an error... given each generation has some new keys, i don't have to rewrite. next gen uses an :around construct and handler to catch the condition and does a check / set for new slots, and then invokes a restart back into the original parser 09:28:08 why would you go back to the original? 09:28:09 rahul: oh dear... i don't know? I'm trying merely to understand the implications of this language in memory on these Von Neumann machines we all use 09:28:15 I would just add another key to the definition and keep going 09:28:17 rahul: to continue to loop through keys 09:28:43 what if the key list changed order? i'm not sensitive to that now, given i return to continue on next key 09:28:46 Demosthenex: I thought you had already constructed all the key/val pairs at that point 09:28:50 order? 09:29:01 whaa? 09:29:06 the cond statment isn't sentitive to key order (from the split) 09:29:11 rahul: if i have it right, it seems that the basic building block are these cons cells which seem to be a tuplet of pointers... 09:29:17 Demosthenex: your point being? 09:29:28 shoafb: a pair, to be exact 09:29:47 now, yes... i could go add another key, but the goal is to never change the object corresponding to a generation once complete. the next generation needs its own object and can "patch" the prior or start anew 09:29:59 shoafb: your cons chain is equivalent to (list 'a 'b' c'...) 09:30:23 shoafb: '(...) is a literal constant which could be shared across invocations, so side effects will make a mess 09:30:39 Demosthenex: which is what the restart should do 09:30:50 yep, and thats working great. 09:31:02 (disable-memoization () 09:31:02 :report "Disable memoization and continue." 09:31:03 (setf (symbol-function 'memoize-method-result) (constantly nil))))) 09:31:14 Demosthenex: no it should create a new generation 09:31:19 and start using that 09:31:47 http://chaitanyagupta.com/lisp/restarts.html was a great restarts reference 09:31:49 tutorial 09:31:57 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 09:32:26 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:52 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:34:14 huh what is terpri 09:35:12 terminate print 09:35:14 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:35:14 clhs terpri 09:35:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_terpri.htm 09:36:01 wow, is that a doc bot? 09:36:07 clhs documentation 09:36:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm 09:36:10 no, a spec bot 09:36:11 awesome 09:36:42 private messages are probably the recommended usage :) 09:36:54 apologies 09:37:02 although if something relates closely to the discussion on the channel, it is also customary to use it on the channel 09:37:11 frodef [n=frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 09:37:26 crazybyte [i=c1e7120e@gateway/web/freenode/x-yqdboclzzlfellpo] has joined #lisp 09:37:43 I'd like to thank you all though for allowing me to intrude on your channel like this, you're all very helpful 09:38:26 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 09:38:33 shoafb, there's also http://l1sp.org/cl/terpri 09:39:39 lupine_85 [n=quassel@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has joined #lisp 09:40:09 hello! I have a small issue perhaps somebody could advise me what to do to solve it. I'm trying to install clisp on windows. Everything works fine until I start the cli interface and try to load a custom lisp file. It says that it cannot find the file. Any thoughts on what could be the issue? I tried to google it but I couldn't find any usable advice or pointer? Thanks! 09:40:24 varjag [n=eugene@62.97.226.122] has joined #lisp 09:41:10 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:32 crazybyte: use http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and paste your interaction 09:41:57 shoafb: xach has a URL that lets you use a browser keyword for that same search 09:42:00 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@wavelan-6.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:12 I just type clhs find-symbol and get the clhs page for it 09:42:20 boom right in the browser. 09:42:35 nice 09:42:50 crazybyte: are you in the same directory as the file? 09:43:14 crazybyte: are you using forward slashes insteaad of backslashes? 09:43:32 rahul: I\m in the same directory 09:43:40 and because of that i don\t use slashes 09:44:06 but in any case I use either double backslashes or slashes 09:44:09 crazybyte: (load "file") doesn't work? 09:44:12 no 09:44:16 it doesn't 09:44:19 what extension are you using? 09:44:23 it says that it cannot find the file 09:44:23 (load "file.lisp") ? 09:44:27 file.lisp 09:44:29 (what extension does clisp expect these days?) 09:44:33 try file.lisp 09:44:33 (load "test.lisp") 09:44:40 ok 09:44:54 I think clisp uses .lsp by default X| 09:44:56 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:45:08 what's the value of *default-pathname-defaults* ? 09:46:22 custom:*source-file-types* => ("lisp" "lsp" "cl") 09:48:17 spaceodyssey [n=algol@unaffiliated/fdd] has joined #lisp 09:48:28 rahul it seems that it`s a nasty matter. i solved it. it was the os`s fault. thanks for your help 09:48:42 spaceodyssey: what are your doing here? 09:48:48 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.124] has quit ["be back later"] 09:48:58 lookin around, crazybyte. 09:48:59 spaceodyssey: following me? :P 09:49:01 yeah 09:49:02 i do 09:49:04 eh. 09:49:11 bye all. have a nice day and thanks again 09:49:19 -!- crazybyte [i=c1e7120e@gateway/web/freenode/x-yqdboclzzlfellpo] has quit [] 09:49:21 bye, crazybyte. 09:49:37 -!- alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:50:13 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@190.135.21.37] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:34 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:51:58 HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has joined #lisp 09:54:02 Hm I should really push hyperdoc 09:54:30 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:55:45 right, so this object creation is really confusing me... lets say, for example, I was trying to create an object for a circle with a method to print out its area, how owuld i go about this 09:56:32 stassats: In your last commit, you really should put an explaining comment there 09:56:42 nevermind... i just needed to read another twenty lines.. 09:56:46 oi 09:57:57 shoafb: Methods are not part of objects in CLOS. Are you reading Practical Common Lisp? It contains a good explanation of the fundamentals of CLOS. 09:58:42 I am... I'm just.. either incredibly dense... or very inexperienced.. or both 09:59:27 shoafb: you'd only be experienced with this way of doing things if you already used CLOS before :) 09:59:32 it's probably the latter :) 10:00:10 not many languages decouple class definition from function polymorphism 10:00:18 (from scoping 10:01:06 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-89-75.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:01:16 anyway, I shuold get to sleep so I can do laundry before I try to get into the pixies show for free 10:01:35 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:01:46 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:53 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h-64-105-143-250.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:02:55 alvinator [n=alvinato@195.10.10.180] has joined #lisp 10:03:18 It seems that in xlunit both assert-equal and assert-eql don't have a :test key. 10:03:24 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 10:03:33 Is there a standard alternative that I'm not seeing? 10:03:33 well duh 10:03:49 assert? 10:04:03 Hmmm... duh indeed :P 10:04:06 (assert ( x y)) 10:04:08 :) 10:10:43 rahul: I see the (op ..) truncation in sldb now too 10:11:18 I think that's unwarranted and due to some unwanted dynamic scope overlap 10:11:51 "Dynamic Scope considered harmful." 10:11:57 girzel [n=user@123.121.238.159] has joined #lisp 10:12:27 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 10:12:45 hello 10:13:46 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-115-35.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [No route to host] 10:14:08 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:21:35 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.124] has joined #lisp 10:26:35 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:29:49 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:31:47 -!- shoafb [n=The_Doct@98.150.247.183] has quit ["Leaving..."] 10:33:13 is it possible to declare variables (eg from a string) at run-time without eval ? 10:33:34 i'm wondering if it even makes sense.. 10:34:14 billitch: why would you want to name a variable at runtime? 10:34:20 a variables no use if you can't refer to it later. 10:34:24 a variable's* 10:34:45 i'm implementing uri-templates 10:35:15 and destructuring uri's mean getting variables named from the template string 10:35:22 means* 10:35:47 how do you envision your code being used? 10:35:50 come up with a specific use case for this specific functionality 10:37:14 users or admins declare uri-templates (at run-time) which are used later by existing code 10:37:46 02:35:59 < Ralith> come up with a specific use case for this specific functionality 10:37:50 as in, write the code. 10:37:57 lol 10:38:25 I'm quite serious. 10:38:46 ok here is a possible use case 10:40:39 (with-destructured-uri "/{service}/{-list|/|params}" hunchentoot:*request-uri* (apply service params)) 10:41:06 binding two variables : service and params 10:41:21 that is a broken design 10:41:25 simplest example: 10:41:48 wait, misread. 10:41:52 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 10:42:04 yeh this is a dumb example not caring about security 10:42:16 but this is handled elsewhere 10:42:16 billitch: you could write a macro to parse the string at runtime 10:42:24 er 10:42:25 compiletime 10:42:31 and build a let block based on that 10:42:36 yes but the string is actually in a database 10:42:44 so very runtime 10:42:51 that wasn't the use case you gave 10:43:00 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:43:06 ok sorry just wanted to explicit the contents of the string 10:43:34 but "/{service}/{-list|/|params}" is actually out of a var 10:43:46 what you mean to say is "determined at runtime" 10:44:09 http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/prototypes/prototypes.lisp?rev=1.5&root=rjain-utils&view=auto 10:44:10 I don't believe there's a very clean way to do that; in your place, I would use an alist. 10:44:25 it's alive! share and enjoy 10:44:30 *rahul* passes out 10:45:05 *rahul* ponders... an ode to the growth of object systems 10:46:39 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 10:46:45 you see why i thought of eval ? 10:47:02 but i dont like it.. 10:47:24 i dont like the alist approach either 10:49:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:42 isnt there something relating variables and environments ? 10:50:13 its just like if i had a function not yet closed actually 10:50:20 and which would be closed at run-time 10:52:23 or i could handle the undefined-variable conditions 10:52:30 (yuck) 10:52:52 clhs prog 10:52:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog_.htm 10:52:56 billitch, take a look at progv 10:53:41 yes, progv it is. 10:54:36 i used it in similar situation, the only problem is what you get a bunch of warnings about undeclared variables 10:55:01 akamaus: can't you declare them to be special? 10:55:23 jdz, yeah, i did so after all 10:55:47 thanks ! 10:56:02 just the right thing =) 10:56:50 billitch: another approach might be to refer to them all as (param foo) and have the with form wrap a (macrolet ((param (name) `(cdr (assoc ,name param-alist)))) ...) 10:57:04 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.166.147] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:57:25 billitch: this has the advantage of preventing confusion with real variables. 10:57:41 Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:57:45 yes but id really appreciate using them as 1st class variables in the rest of my code 10:58:22 billitch: also: if you're pulling your specstrings from the database, how do you expect your fixed-definition code within the with clause to be able to handle it correctly? 10:58:26 your design is broken. 10:58:34 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-250-87.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:58:46 and you're right about the macrolet construct, i'm using something like that, very useful 10:59:10 -!- frodef [n=frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:59:22 because the templates are checked on submition 10:59:50 billitch: checked how? 10:59:59 billitch: if you know the parameters will have certain names, you can just use a plain old let block. 11:00:12 if you don't know that, your design is broken and your system will fault. 11:00:21 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-250-87.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 11:01:03 right but in any case that's the template that is broken, not the lisp code 11:01:18 so it wont work checked or not actually... 11:01:19 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 11:01:28 billitch: no, it's your design that's broken. 11:01:41 the template is merely the input that makes it obvious. 11:01:47 You should be using a simple let clause. 11:01:53 you have no need for any of these advanced approaches. 11:02:11 I can't fathom why you thought they were necessary when your code is unchanging. 11:02:33 actually i'm unclear because confusing two things : 11:02:42 you asked for a use case which was mine 11:02:53 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-250-87.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:02:55 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-250-87.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:03:04 but the code i write is a separate package with broader audience i guess 11:03:21 billitch: will the code within the with clause change at runtime? 11:03:39 if yes, your design is almost certainly broken for the same reasons using #'eval is usually bad. 11:03:53 uh no but it wont be written by me 11:03:57 so? 11:04:53 you make a point, a simple let might be enough..! 11:05:01 indeed. 11:05:12 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.134.79] has joined #lisp 11:05:13 (defmacro with-destructured-uri ((uri &rest symbols) &body body) ; for example. 11:05:56 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.124] has quit ["be back later"] 11:05:57 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:08:44 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:08:58 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 11:10:14 <_deepfire> rahul, what did you announce? 11:11:57 thanks for being so critical =) 11:12:14 hm i meant 11:12:26 I know what you meant :P 11:12:29 'snp 11:12:58 the route you were taking smelled funny and it takes effort *not* to chase funny codesmell. 11:14:01 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 11:14:34 building simple is not simple, the paradox of design 11:16:15 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:23 I'm wondering if it is a bad idea to extend a vector with methods specific for coordinates. Any thoughts on the matter? 11:16:33 pjb [n=t@79.149.153.62] has joined #lisp 11:16:59 jtza8: extend a vector with methods? 11:17:25 Yep... i.e. (defmethod foo ((v vector)) ...) 11:19:14 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:19:24 jtza8: that's extending the generic function FOO with a method for vectors. 11:19:25 jtza8: not a bad idea 11:19:25 Ah yes, sorry about my noob terminology. Thanks :) 11:20:27 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:20:27 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-169-202.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:20:35 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:20:35 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:20:35 -!- krappie [n=brain@67.15.74.93] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:20:35 -!- ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@fritz.lysator.liu.se] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:20:35 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:20:35 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-29.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:21:42 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 11:21:42 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-169-202.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:40 *fusss* christens a VPS with more ram than his laptops 11:24:21 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@128.12.249.103] has quit [] 11:24:26 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:24:26 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:26 ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@fritz.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 11:24:26 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 11:24:26 krappie [n=brain@67.15.74.93] has joined #lisp 11:24:26 tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-29.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:24:48 jtza8: bear in mind that the CL vector type is a one-dimensional array, not a point in any space. 11:25:09 Yep 11:25:43 demmeln [n=Adium@188.104.85.104] has joined #lisp 11:25:54 <_3b> watch out for protocols that can be expected to have more than 1 meaning for 'vector' though 11:26:26 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-73-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:26:29 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:37 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 11:27:39 <_3b> like rotating points,lines,quaternions,matrices, some of which might even be the same size vectors :/ 11:27:47 Ok, AFAIK, if I define a specialiser in a package, it is only defined within that package? 11:28:08 <_3b> no, packages only affect symbols 11:28:31 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.124] has joined #lisp 11:28:47 Hmm... so I'll be defining global methods then? 11:28:52 <_3b> so the names are in the package, but the generic function named by that symbol is just an object 11:29:05 Ah ok. 11:29:20 <_3b> methods are just objects too, which get added to the generic function object 11:29:38 <_3b> they only look at the type of the args (except EQL and other unusual specializers) 11:30:28 snearch_ [n=olaf@85.179.129.9] has joined #lisp 11:30:42 <_3b> and can't distinguish between multiple names for a given type, so you can't limit those by package either 11:30:58 Ok, I guess it might be a better idea to sub-class vector then. 11:31:37 <_3b> or just wrap it in a class if you want a nice CLOS api 11:31:37 Or make a totally new class all togeather. 11:32:44 Thanks, it makes sense now. 11:34:02 <_3b> though if you need to do a /lot/ of operations on these, you might be better off staying with typed vectors and normal functions with long names 11:35:51 <_3b> (long names as in specifying what types they operate on in the name, rotate-point-3d or whatever) 11:36:31 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-139-201.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:36:56 -!- nunb [n=nundan@217.133.104.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:09 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:48:15 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483DC66.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:39 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:51 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@85.179.129.9] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:53:42 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-C2F2E195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 11:53:46 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:58:51 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:55 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 12:03:01 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:29 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:03:49 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:04:15 voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #lisp 12:05:57 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:05:59 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 12:06:02 c|mell [n=cmell@93.152.189.202] has joined #lisp 12:09:23 sbcl warning: Starting a select without a timeout while interrupts are disabled. 12:10:12 is there an explanation for why this occurs (manual page etc) 12:10:30 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:12:44 snearch [n=olaf@e179129009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:12:55 -!- alvinator [n=alvinato@195.10.10.180] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:13:13 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:14:04 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:14:27 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:14:37 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:16:24 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.6] has quit ["Damn cable pluggers"] 12:19:00 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@93.152.189.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:19:14 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:15 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 12:22:29 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:54 -!- stat_trav [n=stat_tra@202.3.77.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:25:02 pkhuong, you have some optimized string dispatch code/blog post somewhere, right? if so, could you please give me a hint how to find it? 12:26:27 beauty [n=beauty@83.231.90.74] has joined #lisp 12:26:33 morning 12:27:55 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.6] has joined #lisp 12:27:59 <_3b> fo/~pkhuong/string-case.lisp ? 12:28:11 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:12 -!- Adrinael_ is now known as Adrinael 12:28:13 <_3b> attila_lendvai: http://discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/string-case.lisp ? 12:28:22 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@a109-50-46-245.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 12:29:18 http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/Lisp/string_case_bis.html 12:29:22 ? 12:29:54 great, thanks to all of you! i was googling for string dispatch instead of string-case 12:31:23 benny` [n=benny@i577A1865.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:11 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 12:35:30 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-aroiqdtkbdkihvel] has left #lisp 12:35:41 rajesh [n=rajesh@cpe-72-229-29-231.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:14 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:44:20 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A31CD.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:44:52 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 12:47:43 mar2 [n=mar2@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 12:50:02 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.29.110] has quit [] 12:55:18 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60.241.1.206] has left #lisp 12:55:51 c|mell [n=cmell@93.152.189.202] has joined #lisp 12:57:01 silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has joined #lisp 12:59:17 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:59:51 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 12:59:51 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:01:11 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has joined #lisp 13:03:35 -!- benny` is now known as benny 13:05:22 moesenle_ [n=moesenle@131.159.19.80] has joined #lisp 13:08:52 -!- moesenle_ [n=moesenle@131.159.19.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:09:14 teur [n=Golovnev@212.98.161.178] has joined #lisp 13:12:56 sebyte [n=sebyte@vps203.linuxvps.org] has joined #lisp 13:15:12 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:15:50 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-41-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:16:21 *Xach* doesn't think Portland stands much of a chance for hosting ILC2010 13:16:30 2011, rather 13:17:25 ? 13:18:11 although i guess pfdietz and/or chandler came here for some kind of testing conference 13:18:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has joined #lisp 13:18:55 splittist: alu are asking people to do some homework and submit their favorite city for ilc2011 13:19:14 portland is my favorite city. also it has the world's only municipal pipe organ. 13:20:58 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:21:05 http://www.foko.org/about_the_organ.htm 13:21:13 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-139-201.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:21:24 -!- gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-139-201.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 13:21:37 surely they can stop the search right there! 13:21:47 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 13:24:05 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:24:21 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:24:56 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:14 frode` [n=frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:29:23 -!- frode` is now known as frodef 13:29:51 *Xach* wonders if portland's proximity to the last venue in boston would count as a strike against it 13:30:01 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:47 "By tradition, consecutive ILCs are not held in the same region" 13:32:31 ah, i missed that bit. 13:32:43 my second favorite city is also portland :( 13:32:49 heh 13:33:11 actually, i had quite a lovely time in Ottawa for Linux conferences. i think that would be a fine city. 13:33:32 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:33:35 *Xach* doesn't know any ottawan lispers though 13:35:12 Geneva (the one in Europe) is a lovely city. But expensive. I hope the Turkish contigent steps up. Or the Japanese folks can find cheap accomodation... 13:36:13 Or perhaps someone can convince a sheikh that ILC2011 is just the ornament a city-state needs to show the world it has made it... 13:37:34 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 13:38:03 And Capetown - full of FIFA World Cup 2010-tested infrastructure by then (: 13:38:17 s/town/ Town/ 13:39:08 "through a slight booking snafu, ilc2011 will be held in trenchtown rather than cape town" 13:39:45 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:39:50 kiuma [i=5d3efe6b@gateway/web/freenode/x-mceswxsginmjkfci] has joined #lisp 13:40:11 hello 13:40:26 does anybody of you use lift test suite ? 13:40:52 is there any possibility to make a test dependent from another ? 13:42:21 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:19 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:01 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has joined #lisp 13:49:30 antoszka [n=antoszka@lemongrass.antoszka.pl] has joined #lisp 13:52:38 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:53:14 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Work Time!"] 13:57:10 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.6] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 13:58:58 gz_ [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:00 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:59:30 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:59:43 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:45 -!- HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:58 TDT [n=user@206.196.111.202] has joined #lisp 14:06:45 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:11:46 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 14:14:41 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 14:15:45 Hmmm...CLPython looks pretty cool, considering I do Python development yet quite a bit. 14:18:25 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:22:33 i never got it to work on win32 14:22:50 how does it compare performance wise with CPython, TDT? 14:23:31 Not sure really yet. I will likely mess with it considerably tonight, as I think I can use some of the linguistics tools from python with what I'm doing in Lisp. 14:23:32 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:32 what lisp are you running it on? 14:24:34 sbcl? 14:24:43 minion: memo for tmh: what's the bug in single-float reading in SBCL? 14:24:44 Remembered. I'll tell tmh when he/she/it next speaks. 14:25:54 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:25:58 beauty: Yeah, using sbcl on linux 14:26:15 and froydnj, it was a rounding issue after something like 6 digits...was discussed last night. 14:26:17 minion: logs 14:26:18 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 14:26:54 TDT i tried with Clozure 14:27:06 can't get ASDF to work in Win32 with SBCL 14:27:24 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:27 TDT: well, yeah, but I was particularly wondering where tmh saw the bug in the code 14:28:52 froydnj: ah ok. 14:29:04 TDT: thing is, the sixth decimal is close to the limit for single float precision; two printed representations differing only there could very well map to the same float. 14:29:13 beauty: Yeah, I haven't tried anything for win32 yet with Lisp. Most of the time I just run things in virtual machines. 14:29:40 beauty: ASDF seems to work with the latest SBCL build found here: http://ntemacs.sourceforge.net/ 14:29:48 pkhuong: Yeah, that makes sense 14:30:47 hah, the first time i pulled up the logs..I love the fact it's in 3 totally different formats, depending on what one is comfortable reading. 14:31:01 blandest good! but anyway i would prefer CCL i find it more stable 14:31:16 I also use ccl (mostly because of threads on win32) 14:31:19 sbcl also segfaults from time to time 14:31:29 beauty: What problem are you having with CCL and CLPython? 14:31:56 sellout: just my own ignorance trying to get them to work together on win32 14:32:15 beauty: But any particular error? 14:33:01 yep, errors about asdf:operate (i don't remember the exact names) not existing 14:33:27 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@188.104.85.104] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:33:31 but it's probably my own fault, or ASDF not working on Win32 14:34:01 G'morning all. 14:34:03 i remember it trying to create a temp folder in a drive that doesn't even exist and things like that 14:34:03 beauty: Are you sure you did (require :asdf)? 14:34:06 hi nyef 14:34:12 i probably should run it in a VM with linux anyway 14:34:27 sellout not sure, it was a month ago! 14:34:35 beauty: Ah, well, let me know if you try again and hit something specific. #ccl is also a good place to ask. 14:34:43 but i'll try tonight again and ask here if a get problems ^^ 14:34:58 sellout nice thanks :)) 14:35:04 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@93.152.189.202] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:35:18 c|mell [n=cmell@93.152.189.202] has joined #lisp 14:35:52 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-29-35.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:44 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1865.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:10 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.116.123] has joined #lisp 14:41:05 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:41:19 p0a [n=user@athedsl-377533.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:41:32 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.116.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:41:34 Hello how can I change the way a class is printed? 14:41:40 a class I defined 14:41:59 print-object? 14:45:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has quit [] 14:46:07 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.116.123] has joined #lisp 14:46:13 what's preferred to just show the contents of the object in text? Should I use a single line or tabbed list or something? 14:46:34 also, how can I include the standard-object print representation in my (defclass print-object ...)? 14:46:46 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html 14:47:38 print-object is only mentioned twice 14:47:48 (defmethod print-object ((object my-class) stream) ...) 14:48:02 Sorry, see http://l1sp.org/cl/print-object 14:48:08 hah 14:48:29 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:48:49 lithper [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 14:50:07 I don't see a way for print-object to do what I've asked 14:50:16 I don't think the clhs print-object page is of help 14:50:43 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179129009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:51:18 p0a, call-next-method and / or some use of the :around method-combination might be what you're looking for 14:52:37 method-qualifier* 14:53:46 thanks for the ideas I'll look into that 14:54:46 I've adopted this print method for now: 14:56:17 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.238.159] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:56:33 is lisp used anywhere as a server-side code, like php or perl? 14:56:53 lithper: i use it for http://wigflip.com/ 14:57:33 i've only found mod_lisp. is that what you use Xach? 14:57:42 p0a, perhaps you just need print-unreadable-object? (defclass test () ((x :initform 42))) (defmethod print-object ((test test) stream) (print-unreadable-object (test stream :type t :identity t) (format stream ":X ~A" (slot-value test 'x)))) > (make-instance 'test) # 14:57:46 dysinger [n=dysinger@75.85.132.170] has joined #lisp 14:57:49 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:02 lithper: i wrote something for you! 14:58:19 lithper: http://xach.livejournal.com/144475.html explains about mod_lisp 14:59:16 thank you 15:00:43 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:00:49 Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:01:18 i don't keep track or count or anything, but i think many lispers just use a reverse proxy now .. apache/lighttpd/nginx --> mod_proxy (for the http server in question) --> lisp (hunchentoot, or whatever) so the front-end handles most of the static stuff (static image files etc.), while the back end (via the reverse mod_proxy thingy) handles the more dynamic stuff 15:01:35 *Xach* uses nginx 15:01:45 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:01:56 lighttpd here 15:02:18 i think fuss uses nginx also 15:02:22 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:34 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:03:20 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@a109-50-46-245.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 15:03:30 stattrav [n=stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 15:04:23 benny [n=benny@i577A1865.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:05:23 froydnj: ping 15:05:41 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:11:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:11:22 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:25 -!- jawhite [n=jolyonw@124-168-182-74.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 15:13:29 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@128.237.157.123] has joined #lisp 15:14:08 Hi all, I have a weird problem. I defined a class with some readers. After a while i decided to change names of readers. I recompiled code, but somehow old and new names got mixed. I get messages about no-applicable methods when I evaluate my functions. I don't know what to do now. What else besides restarting the lisp could help me? 15:17:47 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:17:50 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:18:52 akamaus: rebuild the whole system 15:19:03 lighterthanair [n=lightert@38.105.245.18] has joined #lisp 15:19:18 And only use the new names (and fresh instances of the class) 15:19:28 dlowe, will it purge stale definitions? 15:19:47 akamaus: no, it'll just be garbage sitting in your image 15:20:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:28 afaik, you need to DELETE-PACKAGE for that. 15:20:45 well, deleting the package isn't a guarantee either. 15:20:54 You can still have references to the function 15:21:26 the gengc may also have decided that the functions were long-lasting enough to keep indefinitely 15:21:41 pkhuong, I guess it's part of my problem, I probably forgot to fix old names somewhere, but the compiler doesn't show warnings, cause old symbols present. 15:22:04 lnostdal: cool! that does the job 15:22:45 dlowe, so, what should I do in the future to avoid such situations? 15:23:11 akamaus: I suggest you be tolerant of a little garbage. :) memory is cheap. 15:23:23 you can use unintern or (f)makunbound. 15:23:39 p0a, ok, cool .. :) 15:24:05 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:24:22 hm. if I unintern a symbol, then intern another symbol with the same name, is it the same symbol? 15:24:30 dlowe: no. 15:24:33 of course not 15:25:00 (eq (make-symbol "foo") (make-symbol "foo")) => NIL 15:26:13 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-377533.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 15:26:32 akamaus: I can recommend slime-query-replace-system for such renaming purposes 15:27:40 Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has joined #lisp 15:27:44 dlowe, It's not the memory that bothers me. I really like repl style of development, but sometimes I run into the difficulties like this one. 15:28:47 akamaus: Usually, what I do is: refactor in the working image until my test suite succeeds; restart my list, force-reload the system, and see if my test suite still succeeds 15:28:57 my lisp 15:29:09 I just don't have any qualms about restarting my lisp image and reloading everything 15:29:20 tcr, Is slime-query-replace-system contained in one of slime modules? I cant find it 15:29:29 akamaus: Yes, in slime-asdf 15:29:37 You need a very recent version 15:29:47 best is if you cvs up -dP in your checkout directory 15:30:26 what does s-q-r-s do? .. maybe i should just try .. heh 15:30:39 Have any recent changes made Slime's "function argument info in the mode line" feature more expensive or slower? 15:30:39 Run query-replace through all files belonging to a system 15:30:49 dlowe, I'll miss numerous definitions I made in repl for testing purposes if I restart lisp.. 15:30:57 Guest39654: Update your checkout 15:30:58 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:31:10 ok, i guess i'm not familiar with query-replace 15:31:13 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:18 lnostdal: it's search&replace 15:31:26 akamaus: ah, well. I typically put all my definitions in a scratch file and load them via slime shortcuts just because of that 15:31:39 I have a lisp source file where recently I've noticed Emacs can't keep up with my typing .... and the function info is flashing in the mode line ... 15:31:47 tcr: OK, I'll grab the latest. 15:31:59 ah, right, tcr .. hm, nice :) 15:32:08 akamaus: on a more general note, perhaps not all common, but i prefer to by default always run interpreted. code that has been compiled i consider stable and rarely touch, while interpreted code is a free for all. i think this helps. it also adds dynamic macro redefinition. 15:32:25 Also, I notice that starting Slime often fails for me. 15:32:27 Guest39654: Autodoc is more elaborate since a week week. Two, or three days ago I did some optimization. I think it should be better now. 15:32:36 a few weeks 15:32:40 OK, I'll test it .... 15:32:54 week week => two weeks? 15:33:01 wiki wiki 15:33:26 week week, a week full of weeks, i.e. seven weeks :) 15:33:38 ah, ok. 15:34:09 Does anyone else have trouble starting Slime inside Emacs? 15:34:20 About half the time I get: swank:close-connection: end of file on # 15:34:35 Emacs mode line says: Lisp connection closed unexpectedly: connection broken by remote peer 15:34:49 fe[nl]ix: pong? 15:34:51 Guest39654: Paste content of *inferior-lisp-buffer*, and *slime-events* 15:35:07 at paste.lisp.org 15:35:07 Guest39654: make sure to rm -rf ~/.slime/ 15:36:05 tcr: Startup never seems to fail when recompilation of swank is required. 15:36:20 ... only on later invocations. 15:37:24 fe[nl]ix pasted "ironclad fixes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91018 15:37:28 Do you think (find-class #() nil) should signal an error as it's a violation of the Argument and Values section? 15:37:45 It currently returns nil on SBCL 15:38:15 daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 15:38:33 Can I get slime-edit-definition to ignore the # xrefs? 15:38:38 -!- lighterthanair [n=lightert@38.105.245.18] has left #lisp 15:39:01 is there a channel website where I can find out about recommended books? 15:39:10 (or resources) 15:39:16 tcr: I pasted the buffer contents: http://paste.lisp.org/+1Y8B 15:39:18 minion, tell daedra about pcl 15:39:18 frodef: Not by flipping some bit; why do you want to? 15:39:19 daedra: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:39:19 konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 15:39:25 minion, tell daedra about paip 15:39:26 daedra: direct your attention towards paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 15:39:29 daedra: i like http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ but it's not about books 15:39:40 tcr: that's for starting without an empty .slime directory 15:39:52 tcr: not be bothered by the useless # links when I want to jump to the source of something? 15:39:53 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:39:55 Xach, Adlai Thanks! 15:39:55 Guest39654: put (setq swank:*log-events* t) into your ~/.swank.lisp, and try again 15:40:05 daedra, those are two good solid CL books. If you want something more theoretical 15:40:18 (and focused on Scheme), ask minion about sicp or htdp 15:40:36 acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has joined #lisp 15:40:36 yeah I found out about those from #scheme 15:41:00 frodef: IIRC # are just section headers, the appropriate definition come after 15:41:02 ok. What has you interested in CL? 15:42:22 tcr: well.. it's annoying to have to skip them and press space rather than have emacs just jump to the definition. 15:43:09 frodef: If you update to HEAD, M-. on multiple definitions will not select the xref buffer anymore. Instead you can use C-M-. to go to next location from within your source buffer (and C-M-, to go to the previous location) 15:43:20 frodef: (automatically jumping over section headers) 15:43:37 tcr: I just cvsupped a couple of hours ago.. let's see :) 15:44:05 tcr: I'm not getting any more extensive logging. 15:44:11 frodef: There's M-? now which is slime-edit-uses the logical counterpart of slime-edit-definition 15:44:21 btw. 15:44:36 tcr: I do notice the following in my *Messages* buffer: Connecting to Swank on port 37296.. [2 times] 15:45:22 on a related note, what's the recommended way to load updates to SLIME into a running Emacs after pulling the latest? Right now I'm using a modified version of stassats's slime-reload function. 15:45:42 Guest39654: Well that's a pity because that means you have to dig this up yourself. 15:45:54 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:46:05 Guest39654: If you have *log-events* enabled, you can use swank::log-event in the swank sources 15:46:07 tcr: the xref buffer pops up with C-M-. also.. 15:46:13 frodef, it's supposed to 15:46:16 *p_l* ponders if he can make a sort of tree-shaker by generating a who-calls tree... 15:46:24 you can make it go away with C-x o q 15:46:32 ..and M-? says that my function (the symbol at point) isn't a class. 15:46:37 ("C-x o" to switch to that buffer) 15:46:46 frodef: Yeah you're on a very recent sbcl 15:47:01 frodef: I was about to commit a fix for that, but you distracted me :) 15:47:07 tcr: OK, thanks, .... I'll investigate and let you know what I find. 15:47:16 Adlai: sure.. but it's 90% of the point of M-. is to effortlessly go to the current definition. 15:47:32 frodef: If there are no multiple definition it just does that 15:47:33 Adlai: C-x o etcetc makes it 300% more bothersome. 15:48:04 tcr: sorry :) 15:48:18 tcr, I actually agree with frodef that this could be smoother 15:48:31 maybe the other buffer could be closed when you do M-, ? 15:49:07 why are those # kept in xref anyhow? 15:49:17 Mathieu [n=mlegrand@222.164.164.144] has joined #lisp 15:49:19 frodef: It means that the definition came from C-c C-cing 15:49:23 i.e. from a buffer 15:49:46 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:49:52 tcr: So I gather, but that was clearly in the context of (a buffer connected to) a file. 15:49:54 This is how I use: M-. (or M-,) then C-M-. then if it's the location I want to be at I press C-x 1 15:50:17 frodef: But you used C-c C-c and not C-c C-k so the definition came from a buffer 15:50:43 tcr: I can tolerate that for defmethods etc. where there are in fact many definitions, but not for regular defuns. 15:51:03 tcr: I understand, but conceptually I think the difference should not be there. 15:51:08 Perhaps you can paste an examplary buffer content 15:52:11 any file with a defun in it, do M-x slime-compile-or-eval-defun with point inside the defun. 15:52:16 frodef, for just one defun, it does go straight to the source 15:52:45 tcr: First problem is better with HEAD Slime. Emacs is mostly able to keep up with my typing now. There are still pauses, but not nearly so bad as before. 15:52:53 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-139-201.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 15:52:56 frodef: I do not have slime-compile-or-eval-defun 15:53:08 I'm using a netbook, so not a super fast CPU. 15:53:44 Guest39654: Ok. You could do M-x elp-instrument-package RET slime- RET, do some work, and later paste the output of M-x elp-results 15:53:47 tcr: oh, right.. it effectively does slime-compile-defun. 15:54:14 tcr: (or slime-eval-defun if there's a prefix argument) 15:54:20 -!- mar2 [n=mar2@76.73.16.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:38 -!- ASau [n=user@host212-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:54:46 frodef: If I C-c C-c a single defun, a later M-. just brings me to that definition 15:55:26 tcr: ok, so there's something not quite right with my setup.. it's lispworks, btw. 15:55:39 The number of definitions comes from the backend 15:56:02 try (swank-backend:find-definitions 'foo) 15:56:48 nurv101 [n=nurv101@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 15:56:51 tcr: that does indeed list all the #. 15:57:03 tcr: so that's from lw's xref system..? 15:58:18 frodef: Perhaps; perhaps swank-lispworks.lisp is to blamed for using it wrong 15:58:39 daedra_ [n=simon@81.97.130.40] has joined #lisp 15:58:42 tcr: should be easy for me to tweak, anyways.. thanks for the help. 15:58:49 relevant pieces are find-definitions, and swank-compile-string 15:59:03 the latter is what C-c C-c boils down to 15:59:05 -!- daedra_ is now known as Guest45099 15:59:41 -!- daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:59:48 -!- Guest45099 is now known as daedra 16:00:31 tcr: elp info is here: http://paste.lisp.org/+1Y8B/1 16:00:54 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:01:09 I moved around a bit in the buffer and typed maybe 40 characters. 16:01:44 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:57 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:07 -!- daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #lisp 16:03:28 ejs [n=eugen@10-99-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:28 -!- ejs [n=eugen@10-99-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:04:43 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:05:07 Guest39654: in contrib/slime-autodoc.el, in slime-make-autodoc-rpc-form change the 10 in the call to slime-parse-form-upto-point into a 5 16:05:09 tcr: I added a second annotation with elp-result output. I started slime, loaded my Lisp file, positioned the cursor in the middle of the file, did elp-instrument-package, typed about 40 characters, then executed elp-results. 16:05:34 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229080131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:05:52 Guest39654: Or perhaps even just 3 16:05:56 that should do some less work 16:08:48 -!- voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:49 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 16:09:43 tcr: setting to 5 seems to make things worse ... see annotation 3. 16:09:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has quit [] 16:11:47 I suggest to place (setq slime-use-autodoc-mode nil) into your ~/.emacs for the time being 16:11:48 tcr: maybe the code change was not activated ... not sure if the file was recompiled .... 16:14:00 tcr: Yes, I set value to 3, removed .slime, redid experiment, performance still bad, Emacs has trouble keeping up with my typing. 16:14:42 tcr: I will set autodoc to nil for now. Thanks! Is there hope it can be made faster? 16:15:15 Well, set it to 1 16:15:32 ok 16:15:49 and perhaps set slime-autodoc-delay to 0.5 16:16:20 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:50 There's also a way to turn off automatic arglist display, and only have it be displayed each time your press SPC 16:17:37 When I try to extract binary files out of zip archive using the zip library, the debugger fires. For text files (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) is returned as expected. 16:17:42 http://paste.lisp.org/display/91021 16:17:57 what might the reason for this? 16:18:10 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:20 <_3b> akamaus: it looks like you pass it an open file wher it expects a filename 16:21:30 -!- GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:21:50 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:50 _3b, what function you're talking about? 16:22:11 <_3b> with-zipfile 16:22:26 <_3b> (unless there is a more specific function on the backtrace) 16:22:34 akamaus: have a look at the backtrace, use the debugger, work out the problem, fix it, restart the frame, send a patch 16:23:34 _3b, debugger stops inside zipfile-entry-contents 16:23:39 tcr: thanks for your assistance! 16:24:38 Guest39654: It probably can be made faster, but I have no incentive and no reference system. I myself use a not-antique-yet-not-modern laptop myself, and the performance is sufficient. 16:24:44 akamaus: the debugger should be able to show you the exact form causing the error 16:24:49 ejs [n=eugen@193-62-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:42 Xof, I have this trace: http://paste.lisp.org/display/91021#1 16:25:56 but I don't feel I understand what's going on ) 16:26:26 tcr: I am editing data, a big list, that's the value of a defparameter. I don't have performance problems with normal, small functions. 16:26:34 clhs read-sequence 16:26:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm 16:26:55 if you read that page, you will discover that the arguments to read-sequence are sequence, then stream 16:27:05 in your backtrace, the arguments given are a stream then a sequence 16:27:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@193-62-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:28:33 ejs [n=eugen@193-62-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:25 Guest39654: Err, yes, that's a very pathological edge case 16:29:47 akamaus: have you looked at the definition of with-zipfile? Your emacs-lisp interface should give you a keystroke to jump you into it. 16:31:42 um, isn't the bug fairly clearly in the stream-read-sequence method? 16:31:56 <_3b> akamaus: where did you get the zip lib? 16:32:02 rpg, the only strange thing i see there is :external format set to :utf-8 by default 16:32:18 the outer read-sequence call is fine, the stream-read-sequence call is whatever, and the inner read-sequence has the arguments the wrong way round 16:32:36 _3b, I downloaded it this summer from http://common-lisp.net/project/zip/ 16:32:45 Xof: Yes, but he says he's able to get the same macro to work for text files. So is there a branch with only one section broken or....? 16:32:56 Ah, there, no idea 16:33:39 frodef: For the M-? bit, update your sbcl checkout 16:33:44 *rpg* is unable to give useful emacs suggestions because his keybindings are all deviant... 16:33:53 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:06 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:34:17 <_3b> akamaus: try checking it out from cvs 16:34:45 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-224-205.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:42 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483DC66.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:35:44 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DC66.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:58 indeed the tarball has a bug and the cvs doesn't 16:36:01 tsk, lichtblau 16:36:53 To be fair, akamaus said he pulled it this summer... 16:37:05 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:37:05 <_3b> rpg: it was fixed in cvs 3 years ago :p 16:37:09 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:33 I'm no-one to talk; anyone still using a clx release is in for a world of pain 16:37:35 _3b, I dont remember exactly, maybe I used asdf-install 16:37:35 ok, tsk indeed! ;-) 16:38:30 Xof: A world of pain? ISTR that there's one ignorable deprecation warning when trying to install the released CLX on modern SBCL and that's it. 16:38:55 really? Ok, cool 16:38:56 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:39:02 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@75.85.132.170] has quit [] 16:39:11 (That said, I have a private git repository of CLX + local changes, so I'm not really in any better shape.) 16:39:26 (Private? Okay, public, but my point still stands.) 16:39:36 are any of your changes things I should be distributing to the wide world? 16:39:54 Possibly. They're all GLX-related changes. 16:40:11 http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/abridgewater/clx.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/glx-fixes 16:40:58 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-174-79-187-228.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:11 At the very least, the first three and possibly the fifth patches after master should probably go in. 16:41:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@193-62-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:43:25 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:45:00 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:15 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.116.123] has left #lisp 16:45:24 The tex-coord-*, gen-textures and glTexImage2D patches are less critical, as you can still get usable wireframes without them, but the type declarations cause useful bitching by SBCL, the request number desynch causes nasty stability problems, and gl:enable and gl:disable were just wrong. 16:46:34 But this is all GLX work, which nobody uses as there are more-complete and more-stable OpenGL solutions out there. 16:46:39 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 16:49:38 nicdev [n=nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 16:50:02 -!- nicdev [n=nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 16:50:12 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:50:16 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:51:18 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:14 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:54:13 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.134.79] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:54:38 Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-118-236.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 *p_l* wonders how hard it would be to add userspace swapping to SBCL... 16:55:46 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:55:55 "userspace swapping"? 16:56:23 heh, yeah, what would that be? swap out objects to disk to reclaim GC area, eh? 16:57:00 hypno: swap to disk implemented in GC 16:57:14 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:57:17 Pointer swizzling at page-fault time? 16:57:44 I just got some hosts where virtual memory is limited ;-) 16:58:48 _3b, Xof,I replaced zip system with new from cvs, restarted emacs, installed salza, but still have the same error 16:58:53 I've been thinking about wanting a disk-backed garbage-collected frame system that supports concurrent access from multiple lisp instances. 16:59:21 akamaus: I blame stale fasls. 16:59:27 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-118-236.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 16:59:34 (May as well get that out of the way first.) 16:59:47 "waiting for somebody to fix Unicode handling on SBCL"...lovely 16:59:53 nyef, there are they stored? 17:00:55 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:01:12 nyef, I use sbcl 17:01:14 Unicode in .ZIP files is pretty irrelevant because hardly any of the major ZIP implementations does it. 17:01:23 nyef: heh, cool idea. i bet it's a nightmare to implement tho. :/ 17:01:24 akamaus: It rather depends on your local configuration. 17:01:57 hypno: It might be a nightmare, but I suspect it might come in handy sooner rather than later. 17:02:10 What this library really needs to use is CP 437. 17:02:23 nyef, I use gentoo, I installed it from portage and didn't configure manually 17:02:24 (I'm not certain whether there is someone taking patches for it.) 17:02:32 I'm already wishing for easy access to wordnet from emacs just for when I'm composing english text. 17:03:10 akamaus: I can't help you there. 17:03:44 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:03:47 As for the directory walking in zip, the solution is to switch to iolib. 17:05:17 Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-118-236.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 17:05:37 nicktastic [n=nick@209.123.234.150] has joined #lisp 17:05:40 Art [n=user@84.23.51.8] has joined #lisp 17:06:04 nyef: indeed. it sort of sounds like the "emacs paradox" tho. it's hard to muster up the energy to do something like that, when using cheap replicating SQL-databases are available (while a shitty solution perhaps, not shitty enough). just like with emacs: it's good /enough/, in the sense that writing something better from scratch will take years before you get reward on the investment. 17:07:01 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 17:07:47 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:18 Madsy [n=Madsy@88.90.30.138] has joined #lisp 17:15:32 -!- splittist [n=David@156-220.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 17:16:04 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:49 -!- beauty [n=beauty@83.231.90.74] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:17:08 nyef: Ironic you're mentioning wordnet, I'm also messing with that a lot lately 17:17:42 Good evening! 17:17:47 nyef: For a linguistics project - there's a library in CL to query wordnet - but not sure how it's doing the querying. I found wordnet for sql server, which I'm tossing it in that. 17:18:01 morning here beach, but good evening/morning/etc :) 17:18:02 _deepfire: I just checked in my my prototypes lib to CVS 17:18:44 nyef, thats odd.. I tried with another archive, all seems to work ok 17:19:18 lispm [n=joswig@g224120118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:05 -!- kiuma [i=5d3efe6b@gateway/web/freenode/x-mceswxsginmjkfci] has quit ["Page closed"] 17:21:15 hello folkth! 17:21:38 *Xach* glares 17:23:51 -!- mgr [n=mgr@213.239.218.99] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:26 "userspace swapping" is one of the reason why we need fast userspace traps 17:25:38 -!- varjag [n=eugene@62.97.226.122] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:26:22 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:48 actually, I guess at that point you're already in the kernel, so it wouldn't fit that situation 17:27:30 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:00 froydnj: does that patch look ok ? 17:31:46 -!- silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has quit [] 17:31:47 gruseom [n=daniel@h-64-105-143-250.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:00 fe[nl]ix: looks reasonable to me 17:32:47 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:34:02 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:37:45 evening all, what's the trick for defining a function with a dynamically generated name? 17:37:53 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:38:00 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:38:24 sebyte: Generate the name, and then use setf on fdefinition. 17:38:38 beach: thanks 17:38:58 No problem. 17:40:21 fe[nl]ix: will apply to github repo tonight, thanks 17:40:46 froydnj, what app are you working on? 17:42:43 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:19 hypno: Yeah, there are things that I'm starting to want to do, that I can do in an ad-hoc fashion, but the investment in making the tools to do them -well- sucks. 17:44:06 ErikaHayley [n=ErikaHay@adsl-226-236-167.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:10 tic: what do you mean? 17:45:48 froydnj, "will apply to github repo tonight" - what's in the repo? 17:46:23 tic: ironclad http://github.com/froydnj/ironclad 17:46:32 thanks. 17:46:48 tic: (not an app, a library) 17:47:00 right. 17:47:10 "piece of mud"? :-) 17:47:56 small puddle of mud, yes 17:50:06 *rahul* stuck two new pieces of mud to the lisp ball recently :) 17:50:19 which are those? 17:50:35 nvntung [n=user@147.210.129.12] has joined #lisp 17:50:57 Good evening 17:51:13 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-9.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:51:27 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@130.83.156.186] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:51:59 nyef: yupp. i want to write a complete CFD/PDE-package in OpenGL with editor and network support and everything, but just contemplating writing the GUI of such a thing is reason to blush and kill any ambition i once had. :D 17:52:17 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-179-38.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:52:24 Is there anybody that met issues in OpenGL with selection buffer? 17:53:11 My program run well in Ubuntu 9.10 (32 bits), but it can't work well on Ubuntu 9.10 (64 bits) 17:54:51 The problem is that I select object using mouse, name on stack is very huge. In practical, that values ranges from 1 to n (n is the number of objects in the scene) 17:56:46 you're probably declaring the wrong foreign type... 17:56:56 which lisp implememntation? 17:57:45 common lisp 17:57:53 er 17:57:55 which one? 17:58:01 which package did you install? 17:58:39 hypno: For the system I'm looking at, I can probably cadge existing implementations for most of the bits, provided that they offer a suitable control interface, but it'd still be a bit of work. 17:58:43 yes, I use cl-sdl, common lisp runs sbcl, slime 17:59:31 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:38 When I hit on the screen, the value of hits is greater than 0. But the name of object in the stack is very big 17:59:51 the name? 18:00:08 the one that comes back from sdl? 18:00:24 which sdl function is this? 18:02:47 nvntung: I think maybe lispbuilder-sdl is a better pick than cl-sdl 18:03:07 To implement selection and pick objects up, we set up selection buffer and turn gl:render-mode gl:+select+ 18:03:33 Then we get hits of objects that be under the mouse and do them on 18:04:12 the name is an integer in the selected buffer which is its index. 18:04:21 Art` [n=user@84.23.51.8] has joined #lisp 18:04:42 -!- pjb [n=t@79.149.153.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:01 -!- Art [n=user@84.23.51.8] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:04 I had installed lispbuilder-sdl, but it has some bugs and i was not successed in installation. choosing cl-sdl is the last one. 18:05:36 nvntung a lot of people who do games / graphics things hang out in #lispgames 18:05:47 Hmm.. never encountered any bugs in lispbuilder 18:06:23 HET4 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:06:56 *_3b* wonders if the behavior of glSelectBuffer is defined well enough to actually be usable 18:07:08 -!- johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-76-180-175-226.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:07:33 <_3b> 'pointer to an array of uint', where uint is at least 32 bits 18:07:45 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:52 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:08:54 it's suspicious that this breaks on 64 bit only 18:09:03 I will try lispbuilder later, I have finished my prj at least . 18:09:23 <_3b> is ":unsigned-int" in cffi the same size as 'unsigned int' in c? 18:10:05 <_3b> rahul: not suspicious, cl-sdl specified 32 bits for GLuint, while GL specifies 'at least 32 bits' 18:10:14 select buffer initializes as array of gl:uint 18:10:29 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-29-35.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:53 unsigned-int vs. int 18:10:55 well, right 18:11:08 _3b: that "at least" is suspicious :) 18:11:55 <_3b> rahul: yeah, not sure exactly how you are supposed to use that function portably (without relying on the .h files at least) 18:13:04 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:07 johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-76-180-175-226.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:07 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 18:20:19 <_3b> nvntung: you probably need to modify cl-sdl to use 64bits for uint on platform with 64bit ints, (assuming you can't just ask UFFI for a native uint) 18:21:17 <_3b> (or i suppose try to reassemble the 64 bit data back from 32bit chunks) 18:22:11 _3b: you mean that i should modify sdl.lisp? 18:22:30 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 18:22:35 <_3b> nvntung: gl.lisp more likely 18:22:58 Indeed, sdl declares 32 bits data types 18:23:43 durbin [n=durbin@adsl-99-181-3-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:58 The maximum value is 32 bits in gl.lisp 18:24:26 it's probably 64 bits on a 64 bit platform 18:24:27 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-118-236.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:25:04 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:12 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:17 most of OpenGL's applications run on opengl32, uffi just binds with opengl32. 18:26:45 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:26:50 this is why you should really just use the .h files. :) 18:26:56 well, it seems like this is 64 bit 18:26:58 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 18:27:10 so try changing it and see if that fixes it 18:27:15 opengl64? 18:27:42 or maybe there's a bug in your gl implementation and it uses 64 bit only for this in the 32 bit library 18:27:48 unsigned int is 32 bits on linux amd64 18:27:50 so try it and see 18:28:31 -!- teur [n=Golovnev@212.98.161.178] has left #lisp 18:28:36 (unsigned long/long long is 64) 18:28:51 <_3b> conveniently, the linux abi on GL site only says what it is for ia32 :/ 18:29:48 cmatei: unsigned int is 32 bits on Linux (32 or 64 bits). That's true. 18:30:41 Where do usigned long/long long for 64 bits declare in .h files? 18:31:24 OpenGL 64 bits is developing now. 18:33:01 I have an idea that we use double-float and cast to another compatible type. i don't know 18:33:13 <_3b> hmm, if unsigned int is 32 bits, it should work then :/ 18:33:43 uint is 32 bits, long is 32bit on 32bit, 64bit on 64bit and long long is 64bit always, iirc 18:33:44 <_3b> nvntung: how do you call the function? 18:33:47 -!- lithper [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:22 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 18:35:46 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:24 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:38:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 18:40:15 Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-118-236.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 18:43:22 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:43:28 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 18:43:43 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:06 for instance, I want to get the ith object, the command should be (sgum:deref-array buffer gl:uint (+ (* i 4) 3)) *selected-object*) 18:44:27 In fact, this value is not so huge 18:44:56 because its range runs 1 to sizeof(buffer) 18:45:22 The program runs on Ubuntu 32 bits well. 18:45:55 ska` [n=user@58.11.75.105] has joined #lisp 18:45:58 I get a big value when the program runs on Ubuntu 64 bits 18:46:10 good night 18:46:15 <_3b> are you sure that shouldn't be (:array gl:uint) ? 18:46:33 All computers with 32 bits work properly with the programs. 18:47:14 <_3b> alternately, does it work any better if you just mask off the low 32 bits and ignore the rest? 18:48:03 ska pasted "define-state-machine macro implementation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91034 18:48:16 I'd like to implement define-state-machine macro to generate FSM at compile time using ideas from Paul Khuong 18:48:32 but i get an error 18:48:52 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 18:49:06 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 18:49:22 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:49:26 It seems like sb-posix:access returns on success, but signals a syscall-error if it fails 18:49:37 Nshag [i=user@82.249.230.249] has joined #lisp 18:50:10 Is there some convenient way to check that the syscall error is in fact of a specific errno, and if not propagates the error? 18:50:10 persi [n=user@h-68-164-110-152.dnvtco56.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:24 I read OpenGL SuperBible 4 edition 18:50:35 snearch_ [n=olaf@92.225.60.63] has joined #lisp 18:50:50 tcr: wel, does the syscall-error object contain the error code? 18:51:05 I am sure that the selection buffer is integer array 18:51:10 rahul: It does, but writing it manually is bloody mundane 18:52:09 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:10 tcr: eh, why? 18:52:26 oh, you want subclasses 18:52:34 yeah 18:52:39 kind of, or some macro sugar 18:52:53 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:52:53 <_3b> nvntung: why do you add 3 to the array offset in deref-array call? 18:52:55 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@131.159.19.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:00 -!- konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:53:01 when sbcl hands you lemons, make macro lemonade! 18:53:18 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:25 The selection buffer is a stack which element is a record. 18:53:28 tcr: I would macroize it 18:53:44 sbcl does not only not come with batteries included but you have to assemble anything yourself 18:53:45 tcr: the most common errnos probably should have specific subclasses, tho 18:53:48 The first field of the record contains number of hits 18:54:06 tcr: this is probably not something people have used before much 18:54:27 The two next values are nearest and farest values of Z that we could use for other purpose 18:54:34 tcr: you'll notice parts of it are really well fleshed out, those are the parts that someone wanted to use, and fleshed out themselves 18:54:41 rahul: Yeah because people use the private sb-unix rather than sb-posix :) 18:54:45 The last one is name of the selected object 18:54:48 heh 18:54:59 tcr: probably that too :) 18:55:05 Name is really a integer 18:55:05 tcr: I wound up defining a zillion conditions to match each errno.h code 18:55:06 I'm really interested in the parts that you considered to be well fleshed out 18:55:15 tcr: And I would catch & resignal that way. 18:55:23 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@79.136.60.147] has quit [] 18:55:34 *Xach* used a lame .h groveller to do it 18:55:37 -!- Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:55:45 something like (with-sane-unix-errors ...) 18:55:58 the irony, ooho! 18:56:11 Geralt [n=Geralt@HSI-KBW-085-216-121-021.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:20 haha 18:56:31 You can read the chapter 12 of OpenGL superbible 4 edition book 18:56:49 (defmacro with-sane-unix-errors () (format t "~&The only way to win is to not play the game.~%")) 18:57:21 tcr: not of the sb-posix, but stuff like optimization of CLOS 18:57:27 rahul: Oh, wait, that loses too... 18:57:33 and optimization of bignum multiplication 18:57:51 nyef: the irony multiplies! 18:58:36 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:47 At least I know now why people use sb-unix. :) 19:00:01 _3b: Add 3 to get the last one of each record in selection stack 19:00:11 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@67.170.39.104] has joined #lisp 19:01:06 <_3b> nvntung: maybe try initializing the array you pass to select-buffer to some known value, so you can see if it is actually being filled by GL? 19:01:57 Xach: Perhaps you can adapt your code to use sb-grovel, and add it to sb-posix? 19:02:00 I intialized that array before pushing objects. 19:03:33 -!- persi [n=user@h-68-164-110-152.dnvtco56.dynamic.covad.net] has left #lisp 19:03:49 tcr: hmm, i don't find that very appealing. 19:03:54 This line is done (buffer (sgum:allocate-foreign-object gl:uint +selection-buffer-len+) beforing pushing objects 19:04:11 ska`: there should be return-from 'block in there, I think 19:04:17 We should probably all just use iolib. 19:04:24 I see return-from block in the expansion 19:04:37 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:04:54 In general speaking, my program allow user to interact with mouse and keyboard. 19:04:55 rahul: the tag to return-from must not be quoted 19:05:24 right 19:05:29 We can rotate, zoom, select, highlight and move objects on the graph in 3D. 19:05:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:05:58 hmm 19:06:08 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06ec2c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:10 The things I want is that it should be run on Ubuntu 64 bits 19:06:23 oh, that's in the macrolet, ok 19:06:40 Another idea I think that is graphic card 19:06:56 ska`: I don't see how this can work correctly... 19:07:17 ska`: return-from will break out of the whole block and not do anything 19:07:31 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-174-79-187-228.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:08:00 thanks 19:08:07 What if there are some differences among graphic card drivers of Ubuntu 32 and 64 bits, although two computers have the same kind of graphic card 19:08:11 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 19:08:36 ska`: Paul should be online some time today. he usually is here quite a bit 19:08:54 nvntung: openGL is supposed to be a generic API... 19:09:01 that's the point... the card itself doesn't matter 19:09:18 you just might get better or faster rendering 19:10:28 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@93.152.189.202] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:11:19 emacspha` [n=user@134.215.217.86] has joined #lisp 19:12:09 -!- Art` [n=user@84.23.51.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:17 -!- HET4 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:13:42 I just need to return a closure that will be called with the next funcall 19:14:17 -!- emacspha` [n=user@134.215.217.86] has left #lisp 19:15:21 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-174-79-187-228.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:23 quodlibetor [n=user@146.95.21.248] has joined #lisp 19:18:55 shoafb [n=The_Doct@cpe-98-150-247-183.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:48 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DC66.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:49 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DC66.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:53 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06ec2c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:27 ruediger_ [n=quassel@91-115-28-95.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:23:31 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:23:40 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-73-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:24:29 (list 'return-from 'block (list 'function next-body)))))) 19:24:41 change that to just (list 'fuction next-body) 19:24:45 see if that works 19:24:49 -!- durbin [n=durbin@adsl-99-181-3-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:24:51 function, even 19:24:59 nvntung: there's API to check for differences between cards, and in theory implementations should include emulation of missing features (though I suspect they only included emulation for core API, not extensions...) 19:25:36 though there are some implementations that do emulation in quite good way (OS X, apparently) 19:27:21 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-174-79-187-228.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 19:28:14 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:14 durbin [n=durbin@adsl-99-181-3-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:00 Thanks rahul, I fixed my problem removing the outer block and changed it to 'return-from closure-name ...'. It works fine now 19:30:01 ska annotated #91034 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91034#1 19:30:30 ska`: oh, right. it's not always going to be the last form of the body 19:32:19 Is that possible to use a backquote in macro that is generated by another macro? I had to use (list (list... 19:32:47 ska`: it's possible, just unintuitive at first. 19:32:57 ATI graphics cards uneffect with OpenGL 19:33:23 thanks Paul, I used your idea to impement FSM macro 19:33:35 I must install open-source drivers instead of closed-source drivers (fglrx) 19:34:46 ska`: you can do stuff like `(foo bar `(x y ,blah ,,blerg))) 19:35:12 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:35:15 ska`: people even do triply-nested backquotes sometimes :) 19:35:35 ;) 19:36:31 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:52 Some people have a general rule that if you're using more than one level of backquotes then you should separate out the levels into different functions. 19:36:56 Hello Fare. 19:37:02 hi 19:37:24 more than one, maybe not. More than two, my head hurts. 19:37:48 any snide remark about "four backquote programmers"? 19:38:07 I'd rather be a four star programmer than a four backquote programmer. 19:39:04 actually, I'm more scared by the four comma programmer than the mere four backquote programmer. 19:39:10 heh 19:39:30 I think I've only done 3 once 19:39:36 nyef: "yes I would, if I could, if I only cououould" 19:39:59 rahul, I did, my head hurt, undid it. 19:40:17 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 19:40:42 heh 19:41:37 these days, I try to always (1) separate the code that macros expand to into higher-order functions, so the macro only does the strictly syntactic part 19:42:07 and (2) introduce intermediate macros to minimize levels of backquoting. 19:42:34 when you're creating a macro-defining-macro, you sometimes need to unbackquote multiple levels 19:43:01 won't that break the reader if you separate that into another macro? 19:43:24 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:43:30 it'll be anaphoric, too 19:43:42 aintme [n=Miranda@247.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:43:50 I suppose you'd have to pass in that thing you would refer to in the inner macro 19:44:14 Does 'let over lambda' or 'on lisp' cover all this? 19:44:31 i mean macro-magic 19:44:46 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:45:50 ska`, I recommend "on lisp" for beginners 19:46:01 ska`, LoL is, uh... nice hacks, very bad engineering. 19:47:00 the LoL author is definitely a four-comma programmer. 19:47:09 :) 19:47:19 What is a four-comma programmer? 19:47:49 schme: ````( ... ,,,,foo ...) 19:47:57 aha :) 19:48:29 hm, i didn't know let over lambda 19:48:39 *rahul* facepalm 19:48:49 you don't want to know let over lambda 19:48:55 Jedi Knight 19:49:16 <_3b> google code search finds a ,,',', that macro looks fun :) 19:49:28 cmatei: your mind has just been polluted by toxic knowledge 19:49:33 he'd use 4 commas, but you'd never be able to figure out what the purpose of the application is 19:49:42 :) the table of contents looks nice :) 19:50:33 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:50:49 _3b: it's all python code, afaict 19:50:58 <_3b> (also ,.,@', but that doesn't count, since it appears to be for testing parsing of that sort of thing) 19:51:02 <_3b> rahul: lang:lisp 19:51:04 cmatei: please do not read that abomination 19:51:16 bye all! 19:51:26 _3b, how do you search for that? 19:51:50 holy deep nesting 19:51:52 <_3b> http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%2C%2C%27%2C%27%2C+lang%3Alisp&sbtn=Search 19:51:53 Fare: just type it 19:52:05 I don't think there's any special processing of the quotes 19:52:11 <_3b> unfortunately format strings make it hard to find them :/ 19:52:17 <_3b> code search uses regex 19:52:21 Ah, _3b: I will try what you suggest. thanks! 19:52:30 rahul: certainly not now. I read PCL, bits of on lisp, bits of LiSP, am now firmly in SICP land 19:52:57 that deep backquoting is only needed on clisp. go figutre :P 19:53:22 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 19:53:35 cmatei: well, maybe you'll have the judgement now to laugh at that book rather than actually think it has any good ideas 19:53:58 the best thing is that it's repeated twice, in a pattern, so obviously the pattern should be factored into a macrolet. 19:54:18 rahul: Looks like it might be some specific optimization for working in terms of clisp's FFI so that it doesn't waste heap space. 19:54:37 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h-64-105-143-250.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:55:02 -!- Nshag [i=user@82.249.230.249] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:18 nyef: yeah 19:55:32 Adlai: heh 19:56:56 -!- nvntung [n=user@147.210.129.12] has quit [""Come back home""] 19:57:16 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:52 davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:39 Legooolas [n=Legooola@92-236-78-43.cable.ubr14.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:01:25 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-118-236.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:03:20 Am I doing something wrong, or does threading not work on powerpc SBCL 1.0.32? (building from source or with the supplied binaries) 20:03:22 *Fare* greps his own code and is pleased to only see two commas at once, in definer-defining macros. 20:03:32 gruseom [n=daniel@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:39 Legooolas, linux? 20:03:45 moah [n=gnu@dslb-188-100-145-215.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:51 ... lol @ " undefined command Super-Meta-Hyper-Tab 20:05:01 threads on PPC are pretty unstable, that's for sure. 20:05:14 Yeah, PPC Linux 20:05:48 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-80-10.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:05:50 Hmm, perhaps I should just use it as a dumb terminal and run x86 sbcl, editing files over ssh (well, emacs + tramp) 20:06:13 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:07:18 yay, ASDF under LW. Somehow I expected such a thing to be included... 20:09:39 Legooolas: x86/linux is the best chooice for sbcl, yes. especially if you need multiprocessing, etc. 20:10:07 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-115-69.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:44 I got annoyed with the rubbish cheapo laptop I bought a year or so ago and sold it 20:10:58 since all that my laptop really does it light browsing and lisping duties 20:11:08 ... sadly, the file that breaks loading of McCLIM on LW is fix-lispworks.lisp ... 20:11:13 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-4.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:11:29 I had assumed that PPC threading would work as well as x86 :/ (remaining laptop is an old G4 mac) 20:11:46 Nshag [i=user@82.249.229.128] has joined #lisp 20:12:02 dto1 [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:04 Legooolas: Clozure CL works on Linux PPC. 20:12:40 rme: Cheers, I'll give that a go. 20:12:51 I'm sure I'm making things more complicated for myself on purpose, somehow :P 20:13:48 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:14:58 well yeah, you can get rid of the need for threading :) 20:15:33 but ccl should do the job fine for you, most likely 20:15:55 I want to play around with Weblocks 20:16:22 so threading is pretty necessary, unfortunately. 20:16:39 Legooolas: go with CCL, weblocks compiles there (I think... I'm not sure if I hadn't have to use UCW) 20:16:52 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:17:12 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@89.152.184.128] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:26 Weblocks has definitely worked on CCL in the past, so I'd guess it still does. 20:17:53 Ok, cool. 20:18:03 yea 20:18:06 What's the currently recommended way to handle packages and stuff? 20:18:16 eh? 20:18:20 I mean, I've been trying to use clbuild rather than the Debian-supplied ones 20:18:25 but it seems a bit messy 20:18:36 and there are other "lisp in a box" style things 20:18:55 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:18:57 Should I just write things with fewer dependencies? :) 20:19:19 lamsight.org is weblocks on ccl 20:19:31 Legooolas: CCL works fine with clbuild 20:19:35 shrug, I just use common-lisp-controller 20:19:37 I've had good experience with clbuild... Some non-lispers have managed to use it well. Careful though, it's not a build system, but only handles getting and installing libraries. 20:19:56 and whatever version control to get the latest code of the libraires that are not in debian 20:20:11 or libraries I want to be on the bleeding edge of 20:20:17 p0a [n=user@athedsl-377533.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:20:21 rahul: I think I just had some pain when hunchentoot was in the middle of changing and everything broke for a while 20:20:43 pkhuong: *nod* 20:20:53 shrug, I wouldn't know the problems. I've never used asdf-install or clbuild 20:20:57 Legooolas: What is messy about clbuild? 20:21:03 Hello I want to write a program that spawns a program and sends input to it. I'm aware this is non-portable, I'm looking for a unix solution 20:21:09 I'm using sbcl 20:21:19 p0a: sb-ext:run-program 20:21:34 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 20:21:44 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-89-75.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:21:52 p0a, or extend IOLib to become a true CLSH... 20:22:14 schme: I was trying to check my local clbuild repo into git, so that it would be the same on any machines I'm using 20:22:16 Fare: IOlib? 20:22:40 schme: And I've had to put some hacks in to get it to use a different .git dir (as some of the libs use git, of course) 20:22:44 looks specific to networking 20:23:12 schme: and now I've complicated things for myself further by having different architectures on different machines 20:23:19 p0a: it's about event loop 20:23:26 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:23:29 greetings lisp pros, is ther an easy way to initialize a whole mess of symbols to a single value simultaneously? 20:23:57 shoafb: write a macro about it 20:24:28 right oh, will do, so no built in operator then 20:25:47 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:25:49 shoafb: sounds like an odd desire, but yes, a macro will even let you shoot yourself in both hands with only one gun 20:27:46 pr [n=pr@87.156.171.153] has joined #lisp 20:27:53 It's this game we have for class... each room I've set up as an object with local cardinal directions (think zork) linked to other rooms, but the player starts out in the infirmary, and so calling any of that rooms directions should not allow him to move saying you're too weak to move etc 20:28:16 so i was hoping to easily initialize the room... since its a small condition, its not a big deal, but yeah... 20:28:17 Legooolas: Hmm.. I just clbuild make-project and add remote repos in the created dir. tends to work just fine 20:28:51 Legooolas: diff architectures shouldn't matter to clbuild though 20:28:59 voidpointer [n=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #lisp 20:29:09 Why not add a "too weak" condition to the move function rather than monkey with the exits? 20:29:10 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:22 shoafb: add conditions to movement commands 20:29:33 shoafb: (defvar *rooms* (make-array '(15 15) :initial-element ,,,)) maybe? 20:29:35 shoafb: (defmacro doit (value &rest places) `(setf ,@(mapcan #'list places (make-list (length places) :initial-element value))) 20:29:36 actually, make a common condition system to be available for all commands, then you can do more 20:29:50 schme: Once I have ccl working I'll prod it a bit more and hopefully be fine this time. 20:29:53 schme: cheers :) 20:30:03 Fare: what do you mean? which event loop? 20:30:26 heh.. lol good call... i'm adapting my partners code so I keep trying to port rather than rewrite which is what i should be doing 20:30:42 p0a: that's what IOlib is. an stream multiplexer via an event loop 20:31:29 and how would one extend it to cover my problem? 20:31:39 where to? include functionality like popen()? 20:31:45 Legooolas: best of luck there 20:31:53 p0a, yes 20:33:22 wow.. yeah, that took 2 lines rather than 12.. thanks nyef / p_l 20:33:34 p0a: a stream is a stream, just add whatever you need to open the streams, yeah 20:33:59 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@146.95.21.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:28 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-C2F2E195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 20:34:38 shoafb: defmud has a custom method combination that allows you to have preconditions on actions defined as separate methods 20:34:51 also, upkeep, etc 20:35:33 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.51.222] has joined #lisp 20:35:55 rahul: hmmm.. i think that would take more restructuring than I have time at the moment, too far along the way I'm at... but I will keep that in mind for next time 20:36:35 what's wrong with this? (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/ls" '() :pty *standard-output*) 20:36:50 nvm. I just noticed :input and :output 20:37:37 -!- ErikaHayley [n=ErikaHay@adsl-226-236-167.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:38:51 heh 20:39:01 ptys are not simply streams :) 20:39:18 rahul: Are they complexly streams? 20:39:36 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7577f3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:37 -!- aintme [n=Miranda@247.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 20:40:05 nyef: yes, with the plural applying to a single pty :) 20:40:24 there's some problem with the swank listener I think 20:40:52 (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/ls" '() :output *standard-output*) is fine when I run it from sbcl, not within slime(emacs) 20:40:53 I would not try to redirect swank to a subprocess 20:41:21 actually I'm doing something simpler I'm writing a thin wrapper over gnuplot 20:41:22 although I would expect that to work.. simple enough 20:41:32 another one? 20:41:51 I'll calculate some things with common lisp 20:41:53 CL-USER> (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/ls" '() :output *standard-output*) 20:41:53 contrib 20:41:54 and I want them plotted 20:41:55 p0a: is output in *inferior-lisp*? 20:41:57 hyperspec.el 20:41:57 etc 20:42:12 p0a: why don't you use the existing one? 20:43:02 stassats: nope 20:44:31 *nyef* can't even install gnuplot on his system. Bloody gentoo. :-/ 20:44:35 I get output in my slime REPL buffer 20:44:39 Sukoshi`` [n=MuneNoKa@vpn3-145196.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:44:47 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:45:08 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:01 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:10 rahul: which one would you suggest? 20:46:22 p0a: I dunno, try them both 20:46:45 I can't figure out which is the older one that I used before 20:46:58 there's 6 mentioned in a page I'm reading. http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20and%20gnuplot 20:47:24 borism [n=boris@213.35.232.204] has joined #lisp 20:47:38 you're talking about CLNUPlot and cl-gnuplot? 20:49:29 -!- GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:49:43 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.12.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:49 or forget about gnuplot and write a wrapper for ploticus (: 20:50:14 great, cl-gnuplot contains code with external:run-program 20:50:41 schme: why ploticus and not gnuplot? 20:51:03 p0a: I just find it simpler. :) 20:51:12 I'll look at it now 20:51:26 I guess it depends on what one is actually doing. I was just creating pngs for using with mcclim. 20:51:45 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:51:54 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 20:52:19 that's what I want to do too. 20:52:33 (up until "creating pngs") 20:53:06 "I was just" ;) 20:53:06 Tordek [n=tordek@host141.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:53:25 and why should I write an interface to ploticus and not libploticus? 20:53:34 p0a: What I did was generate a data file and RUN-PROGRAM on ploticus 20:53:41 dunno. I had no idea there even was a libploticus 20:54:17 now this is really attractive. thanks p0a :) 20:55:07 heh 20:55:19 the blind lead the blind and somehow you're getting somewhere 20:55:31 ehhhe 20:55:56 the plotting package for CLIM is interesting, though (I hope to get it running someday...) 20:56:01 I had great success with my opening a file, dumping shit, RUN-PROGRAMing to create the png actually. 20:56:19 I have not find any CL plotting that does what I want. what is this CLIM plotting package? 20:56:30 running software is a useful concept 20:56:34 But with this libploticus I could skip the opening of a file and all. 20:56:56 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:05 wasn't someone working on graphing with vecto? 21:00:11 dlowe: http://common-lisp.net/project/adw-charting/ ? 21:00:56 problem with that one, for me, is that it really doesn't do what I want. I do want graphs though. I just can't be bothered to do it when ploticus does it for me (: 21:01:26 sure, but it might be effort better spent than mucking with FFI to interface with libploticus 21:01:41 It's like 4 functions. 21:01:50 not very much mucking. 21:01:54 bah. 21:02:13 Ooh. ploticus looks useful. 21:02:30 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:03:32 yeah the api is so small 21:03:36 I'll write the cffi now 21:03:43 -!- johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-76-180-175-226.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:03:43 gruseom [n=daniel@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:45 (: 21:05:23 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:29 -!- borism [n=boris@213.35.232.204] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:05:34 p0a, api for what? 21:05:52 oh, that's quite nice 21:05:55 icky GPL, tho 21:06:33 Fare: libploticus 21:07:30 FFI and GPL gets me confused. 21:07:31 schme: it's included in McCLIM, BBN Scigraph iirc 21:07:47 ouch, FFI and GPL 21:07:47 p_l: Hey you might be right. I think I saw something like that. 21:07:56 I have no idea how GPL mixes with FFI. 21:08:06 I gather that it INFECTS 21:08:19 though, it's dynamically linked, so you might get away with LGPL... 21:08:29 yep; it's not lgpl, though 21:08:43 but it's not really linked until you actually run the shit. 21:08:58 schme: headers infect, iiuc. 21:09:02 schme: doesn't matter, apparently 21:09:06 pkhuong: What header? 21:09:11 reasonably certain it doesn't matter 21:09:23 pkhuong: in this case you can avoid infection from headers, but you are still "linking" 21:09:37 as I understand it, even writing something which is designed to talk to a dl GPL thing results in infection 21:09:43 I seem to remember rms having a discussion with the sxemacs people about this. There was much disagreement about if FFI was ok or not and the infection and what not. 21:09:50 (it wouldn't if it was LGPL, as long as you dynamically link it) 21:10:04 *schme* shrugs... who says it is made for the GPL library libploticus? maybe it is for some other libploticus 21:10:05 schme: the information you transliterated to be able to perform foreign calls 21:10:07 with the same API 21:10:12 rsynnott: as long as you don't include the code, it doesn't infect unless you actually link it... 21:10:19 pkhuong: there is no header for libploticus 21:10:36 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-108-92.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:10:37 The GPL is really quite vague as to what it affects. 21:10:39 rsynnott: also, it depends on how do you release it... messy stuff 21:10:44 Your best bet is probably to take a restrictive view 21:10:57 also, GPLv3 did another mess on libraries 21:10:57 I think the best bet is to no one will care. 21:11:19 Sure, you can also just violate all the licenses and probably nobody will notice. 21:11:25 for example, under v3 you don't need to be on GPL if you "link" with a clisp core 21:11:31 I have code that loads up a library called libploticus.. is it not the actual user that should be worried? 21:11:56 schme: Why don't you just make your library GPL-compatible too, then you're all set regardless 21:12:19 foom: And how would that mix with all the other libraries that are not GPL? 21:12:28 schme: are they GPL-compatible? 21:12:40 I dunno. They're all BSD if they're something I've written. 21:12:43 then yes 21:12:48 schme: GPL, LGPL, MIT, BSD are all fine GPL-compatible licenses. 21:12:54 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:13:04 great. 21:13:12 schme: the clisp people tried that defence (maybe it's for some other libwhatever) with readline 21:13:18 it only enraged RMS :) 21:13:30 rsynnott: And they chickened out. 21:13:34 yep 21:13:40 I don't know what the heck happened with clisp, there was clearly some miscommunication 21:13:57 isn't clisp GPL anyway??? 21:13:58 there is absolutely nothing in the GPL that requires you to distribute your source code under the GPL, only under a GPL-compatible license. 21:14:02 Fare: it didn't used to be 21:14:07 oh 21:14:23 Fare: it was changed because of some misunderstanding (hopefully not on RMS's part...) of linking against libreadline requires. 21:14:30 of WHAT linking, rather. 21:14:46 http://195.43.248.109/~hypno/wcgpl.txt there the is. :) 21:15:17 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 21:15:18 right, so, the executable form of the program-linked-to-readline needed to be under the GPL 21:15:23 the source code doid not. 21:15:35 I say RMS deserves a good kick in the nuts 21:16:16 I'm just gonna keep plotting then. 21:16:55 "I hate to have to play this role with a fellow hacker, but..." - I'm tempted to submit the whole thing to that passive-agressive notes blog 21:17:11 -!- Nshag [i=user@82.249.229.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:49 If you distribute a compiled form of your program which uses GPL'd lib, the whole program needs to be distributed under the GPL. That is why the source code of each piece needs to be under a GPL-compatible license: so that it doesn't prevent the whole work from being distributed under the GPL. 21:18:10 I just distribute source which means.. ? 21:18:22 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-45-82-65-152-63.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:23 you distribute it under BSD and you're all set 21:18:24 you should probably be fine then 21:18:31 horra 21:18:41 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-C2F2E195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 21:19:31 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@92.225.60.63] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:19:41 I'lll note that to my understanding, the source code to clisp wasn't available at that time 21:19:50 which is what RMS was really objecting to 21:19:51 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@128.237.157.123] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:23:21 -!- rlb3 [n=robert@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [] 21:23:22 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-9.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 21:23:48 that's as far as I wrote http://paste.lisp.org/display/91045 21:23:58 I can't get libploticus to compile so I'm not bothering further 21:24:15 p0a: I'm thinking some WITH-style macro for init + end 21:24:25 eheh 21:24:34 Well I'll do it meself then :) 21:25:06 listening to RMS made me think that he's pretty much nuts... or at least lost, deep in the forest of his own... 21:25:33 ah, he's always been slightly nuts, but in a relatively harmless way 21:25:37 ESR, on the other hand... 21:25:50 I'm confuzzled about what is so evil and slaveryish about closed source. But oh well :) 21:27:11 schme: you can't fix bugs in it 21:27:31 and you can't port it to new platforms 21:27:50 however, symbolics wasn't "open source", but it came with source code 21:28:01 oh, hey, another question... 21:28:05 you just couldn't distribute it to anyone who didn't have a lisp machine from symbolics 21:28:17 I don't see the story with GPL. If you want to use the library so much why don't you rewrite it, just copy the gpl libraries design 21:28:33 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-115-69.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 21:28:40 p0a: because the copyright also covers the API to the library 21:28:49 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122.57.23.209] has joined #lisp 21:28:52 rahul: I am aware of these things. I still don't get the evil an slavery part. 21:29:01 rahul: but anything remotely complicated has multiple ways to be implemented 21:29:04 rahul: that one's particularly controversial 21:29:09 schme: you're stuck to a single platform 21:29:09 So I have a list of properties that an object has, some of those are a list of functions... i suppose i could wrap them up in methods... but if i ''((func1)(func2)(func3)) I can store the list as a scalar 21:29:11 rsynnott: yes, true 21:29:11 (the covering of the API by copyright) 21:29:14 [announce] lisp games competition http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/ 21:29:18 p0a: implementation doesn't matter 21:29:22 rahul: what does? 21:29:25 rahul: But you're free to pick another piece of software. 21:29:30 p0a: interface _may_ be covered by copyright 21:29:32 I'm reasonably certain some FSF software flouts it 21:29:33 only problem is when I go to retrieve and eval the functions with 21:29:36 schme: not if it's say, a driver 21:29:37 rahul: design a different interface 21:29:40 (defun evalproperty(x) 21:29:40 (let ((func (eval x))) 21:29:40 (loop 21:29:40 (cond 21:29:40 ((not (null (car func))) (eval (car (func))) (setq func (cdr func))) 21:29:40 ((null (car func)) return))))) 21:29:45 rahul: a driver? 21:29:54 p0a: then it's not a replacement for the thing that's GPL 21:29:55 rahul: buy other hardware! 21:30:00 p0a: it's a _competitor_ 21:30:04 rahul: so? 21:30:11 schme: but you already bought the hardware, and now you can't use it! 21:30:20 rahul: Sucks! 21:30:22 the compiler / interpreter balks at claiming i'm calling func as a function not variable assignment 21:30:26 p0a: so that's what it is 21:30:38 shoafb: you should use lisppaste for that many lines of code 21:30:49 rahul: This is where you learn to do your homework before buying your next piece of gear then. 21:30:50 shoafb: it would also be easier for us to read via lisppaste 21:30:51 rahul: and why don't people write competitors to GPL code? 21:31:00 rahul: just by copying the design? that's my point. that's how teh discussion spawned 21:31:04 rahul: or paying for the software. 21:31:05 dto: hmm.. I'd join, but I wouldn't have enough time to generate assets :/ 21:31:17 p_l: think smaller 21:31:20 shoafb: you're doing (func) when func is a variable, not a function 21:31:23 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-188-100-145-215.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:31:26 p0a: they do 21:31:26 you only have seven days 21:31:32 my 7DRL is just colored squares and simple bitmaps 21:31:36 you can upgrade those later 21:31:42 p0a: what design? you can't copy the implementation or the interface 21:31:49 schme: sure 21:32:09 dto: well, if I get access to usable photo camera then maybe I'll manage 21:32:11 rahul: if there's enough demand for a libploticus, schme will just copy it 21:32:24 and write his own open source version that is not gpl'ed, and use that 21:32:30 dto: I've even got a plot (just now) :D 21:32:32 p0a: of course. that's regardless of the GPL vs non-GPL debate 21:32:37 rahul: yes you can. and noone will be able to tell. 21:32:40 p0a: that applies to any market 21:32:47 p0a: I already stole your code. 21:32:54 p_l: cool. what libs would you plan on using 21:33:02 schme: I only publish source code anonymously, I don't care what you do with it 21:33:06 p0a: people will be able to tell, especially if your code is open source 21:33:09 syamajala [n=syamajal@173-14-133-149-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:21 rahul: they won't have a valid case against you in court 21:33:24 p0a: Me neither with my code. Sadly one can't really put shit in the public domain here :) 21:33:29 p0a: that's actually illegal in Germany :) 21:33:29 dto: SDL 21:33:42 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:33:45 cl-sdl, or lispbuilder-sdl? 21:33:47 rahul: which law covers it? 21:34:00 p0a: they will have a case if they're allowed to subpoena your computer, which can be done pretty easily if there's good circumstantial evidence 21:34:06 p0a: copyright law 21:34:17 that's what covers copyright... 21:34:25 dto: lispbuilder stuff 21:34:27 rahul: that is impossible 21:34:40 because then competitors would be able to sue each other every time one of them releases software 21:34:41 p_l: cool. well if you're gonna be on the compo you should join #lispgames 21:34:43 but that is not true 21:35:16 dto: I'm in #lispgames already :) 21:35:16 once again, if you open up some GPL source code, as a human, understand the purpose of the source code, then code a different program that does the same, which copyright are you violating? 21:35:49 a number of people have been prosecuted successfully for GPL violations 21:35:55 p0a: probably none 21:36:03 p0a: actually, this is reasonably common 21:36:07 depends on how you write the new stuff 21:36:07 if you copy the interface they might or might not be able to claim something 21:36:18 p0a: the copyright on what is "the same" 21:36:22 and what if it's one of those things that there is only one sane way of doing. and you're sitting in a forest and a tree falls and you write the code. and some GPL code looks the same. and because it is C all variables are even named the same. 21:36:26 does it then make a sound? 21:36:29 p0a: the .h files are covered by their copyright 21:36:29 also, MPlayer guys were pretty frequent on going after GPL violators 21:36:57 therefore, any sufficiently interesting GPL program is like an "antidote" to the GPL poison that infects; if there's demand, a non-GPL program will be written, and its writing process will be faster since there's an example to look at 21:37:02 AIUI, copyright is not a protection against "indepdendent reinvention", while patent protection is. 21:37:27 schme: so you have to prove black box development 21:37:39 nyef: correct 21:37:59 I've gotta go. thanks for the discussion 21:38:00 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-377533.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 21:38:07 but you have to prove that it was done in a black box or one of the other two allowed mechanisms of independent reinvention 21:38:15 rahul: That's so sick. I wonder when the world turned into one having to prove innocence instead of someone else having to prove guilt. 21:38:37 schme: um, you've been proven guilty according to the letter of the law 21:38:48 What law? 21:38:49 schme: since your code LOOKS like a derivative 21:38:55 schme: copyright law 21:39:08 schme: that's how libel works in some places 21:39:14 and you can't just block an investigation because you think the law is wrong 21:39:16 I'm pretty sure it's not covered by swedish 'copyright' law. 21:39:32 but oh well. 21:39:32 schme: copyright isn't covered by sweedish copyright law? 21:39:36 sure it is. 21:39:47 But they have to prove I'm guilty, not the other way around. 21:39:48 well, then? 21:39:49 schme: many legal systems are founded on guilt before innocence 21:39:57 mle: I bet. 21:40:06 e.g. napoleonic code versus magna carta 21:40:19 right 21:40:39 the magna carta was one of the inventors of innocent before proven guilty 21:40:48 So let's say someone writes a forth. obviously they will implement DROP as just pop 21:40:54 keep notes, use version control. Then you can show the development process over time and clear differences between products. 21:41:07 however, that doesn't mean you can't be subpoenaed until you're proven guilty 21:41:11 schme: you can plausibly believe that's just convergent design. 21:41:14 but I guess gforth also does it this way (just guessing). So my stupidforth is now violating? 21:41:15 mle: exactly 21:41:33 schme: forth actually has a lot of interesting design choices. See Brad Rodriguez's articles 21:41:48 ITC/DTC etc 21:41:50 pkhuong: That was the case I brought up in the first place and rahul says I would have to jump around proving black holes development. 21:41:57 huh? 21:42:05 mle: You can't really make DROP very interesting. 21:42:08 -!- Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:17 schme: no, you weren't talking about a single function 21:42:20 mle: no matter what threading model you have. 21:42:24 a single line of code, even 21:42:33 rahul: I was talking about a thing where there was only one obvious and good way of doing it. 21:42:40 schme: sure, you can make it a no-op. 21:42:56 nop ? 21:43:05 schme: if you can prove that that is the only obvious and good way, and you developed it without copying the other person's work, then you're fine 21:43:22 schme: well, there's the question of which parts of the stack are in registers versus memory; whether or not to use the hardware stack; which hardware stack, if so; differences between value and return stack implementations; whether they grow up or down, if they use memory at all; how to handle end-of-stack, etc 21:43:29 -!- Guest39654 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:43:33 schme: sure, the stack is just a model. Nothing prevents you from putting it in registers most of the time, and to perform the shuffling at compile time. 21:43:37 so no, drop isn't obvious, necessarily, unless your assumptions are fixed 21:43:54 mle: well yes, you're quite right. 21:43:57 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-4.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:43:59 now you can just use a drop, but you should document the other things you considered, why you're discarding them, etc. 21:43:59 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229080131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:44:04 but most sane people would just pop on x86 :P 21:44:07 And then just use the pop and be happily justified 21:44:13 uh. 21:44:18 not necessarily; consider cache-timing issues 21:44:21 document the other things.. why? 21:44:31 on x86-64, they probably wouldn't use pop. they'd use registers 21:44:33 schme: actually, I bet most interesting implementations will manage to not shuffle the concrete stack most of the time. 21:44:35 the design process should be documented 21:44:52 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-72-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:44:57 mle: I'm not so versed in x86 cache-timing tbh. i'm more of a risc person. :) 21:45:00 look at factor's output, for instance. 21:45:02 that way you can more easily point to your notes and defend yourself against patent claims, or even just know why you chose to do X 21:45:02 schme: if it's something that's hardly worth any money, no one will pay lawyers to come after you 21:45:13 rahul: use registers for stack.. How does that even work? 21:45:18 rahul: there aren't very many registers. 21:45:19 schme: how not? 21:45:23 um 21:45:26 schme: read what I said again 21:45:35 yeah hang on 21:45:37 schme: well, you can trivially fit the TOS into a register 21:45:45 there ARE very many registers where I said it's a good choice 21:45:59 rahul: the stack usually isn't very deep. Moore's hardware designs often have a very small hardware stack (8 to 16-32ish entries). 21:46:00 also amd64 has a lot more native registers 21:46:08 schme: even. 21:46:18 Well it should be 100 or so deep atleast. 21:46:40 schme: that's not what chuck moore believes. 21:46:44 Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-113-130.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 21:46:45 well... 21:46:47 also, forths can do a lot better by inlining and optimizing at a higher level, producing cleaner machine code. If you're doing a long series of pushpops you're horribly slow 21:46:53 chuck also does not believe in daylight time saving 21:46:58 -!- ska` [n=user@58.11.75.105] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:08 schme: I think he has a pretty good grasp of how forth should work. 21:47:14 schme: most sensible people don't believe in that 21:47:26 so on an side note, anyone playing with intellasys chips? 21:47:30 pkhuong: I'm pretty sure he has a good graps of how he wants his forths to work. 21:47:31 mle: I am. 21:47:45 coool 21:47:55 It seems they stopped with those if I am to understand things correctly. 21:48:04 schme: most people manage fine with a 4 element stack on HP 41s. 21:48:15 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:16 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-10-199.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:48:18 ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 21:48:18 pkhuong: yeees. I mostly manage just fine with 3 21:48:23 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:48:27 dto1 [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:46 borism [n=boris@213.35.232.204] has joined #lisp 21:48:48 mle: They're pretty crazy to wrap ones head around. 21:48:56 but I have it producing noise, so I'm happy. 21:48:58 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:49:35 But again, especially if the stack is represented as registers, you don't want to implement stack shuffling as a concrete shuffling of the values. 21:49:43 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@173-14-133-149-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:50:34 they have circular stacks. a bit amusing. 21:50:50 you can push forever and ever. 21:52:07 there being a simple mapping between the surface language and the hardware target doesn't mean you should use that mapping. We don't map each variable to a location in memory either, in statically scoped languages. 21:53:19 well no. depends on your use case yes. 21:53:39 mle: My only problem with these suckers is that I'd like more than 18bits. :) 21:53:41 not even use case 21:53:51 it depends on what the hardware does well 21:54:05 I guess that's the use case for "compilation" 21:54:12 huh. 21:54:17 heh, yay 18bit. 21:54:18 depends on how you want to use your hardware. 21:54:21 beauty [n=beauty@83.231.63.243] has joined #lisp 21:54:40 it might be better to do it one way than another way, no matter whta your hardware does well. 21:54:50 mle: ya it's shit for audio :( 21:54:50 not likely 21:55:00 night 21:56:02 you can use pwm to get decent resolution for analog control voltage signals for controlling analog audio hardware though. 21:56:08 rahul: What you say is not so likely seems to happen quite a bit for various projects here. 21:56:41 mle: That's a very interesting idea. 21:56:43 *schme* makes a note. 21:56:54 plus, native support for fixed point arithmetic. 21:57:30 schme: keep in mind analog oscillators are very heat-dependent for calibration 21:57:40 ya. 21:57:47 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:58:07 analog audio sure is sweet. 21:58:19 soo much IRC time I could be spending with my soldering iron. hrrrm. 21:58:19 and you're probably better off with a normal computer doing all of the calculations and just emitting a digital signal 21:58:50 What is the fun in that though? 21:59:12 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:15 Might just as well use a D/A hooked up to the linux machine then :) 21:59:45 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-41-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:01:51 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:03:02 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:03:19 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:03:55 schme: when you're dealing with hardware that's orders of magnitude faster at manipulating registers vs accessing memory, you can't just say I wanna access memory so I'm gonna 22:04:02 that worked in 1990. not today. 22:04:20 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:04:32 rahul: sure, it still works today 22:04:49 rahul: Uhmm.. right. 22:04:54 rahul: because you don't have the choice about whether you access memory or not, the hardware does magic behind your back. :) 22:05:07 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:05:34 heh 22:05:56 foom: well, even then, it's often 2-5x slower to access memory even when the hardware does something behind your back 22:06:04 rahul: and I still say it all depends very much on what you're wanting to do there. 22:06:47 you want fast stackery. do your stackery in registers. you want something else fast. do somethnig else. great. 22:06:51 I guess if you want to thrash your cache, have fun :) 22:07:00 it doesn't matter what your hardware does well. 22:07:15 and I dunno. my 6502 here does not seem to be THAT much faster either way. 22:07:22 um you put it in registers because that's what's fast 22:07:29 right. 22:07:35 schme: as I said, 1990 is a different story 22:07:39 ... 22:09:46 You make it sound like the 6502 and z80 and other friends died back in 1990 and are still not quite popular. 22:10:14 brown [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 22:10:42 -!- brown is now known as Guest94084 22:10:59 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 22:11:31 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:05 well sleeptime. time to go to prague (: 22:15:58 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-9.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:17:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-225.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:20:33 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-eeb89d9f9042735c] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:35 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 22:21:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:15 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:25:07 gruseom [n=daniel@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:19 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-209-153.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:38 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host141.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:32 Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has joined #lisp 22:27:42 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@vpn3-145196.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 22:29:11 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29:37 good night 22:30:06 -!- serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06ec2c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["as of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door"] 22:31:18 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-80-10.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:31:49 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 22:32:49 -!- Sukoshi`` [n=MuneNoKa@vpn3-145196.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:34:21 Sukoshi`` [n=MuneNoKa@vpn3-145196.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 22:34:47 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 22:36:55 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:40:06 p_l|webchat [i=8b850725@gateway/web/freenode/x-ikrqguxkqhbiwdbv] has joined #lisp 22:41:29 -!- GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@vpn3-145196.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:42:42 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:09 prxq [n=mommer@f051075174.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:14 hi 22:44:17 lo 22:44:54 -!- Eko [n=eko@lawn-128-61-113-130.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:49:13 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:09 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:30 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:50:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:47 good morning 22:51:23 good morning fuss :-) 22:52:22 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 22:53:36 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:36 *prxq* is saddened by the cmucl/debian incident 22:53:40 jawhite [n=jolyonw@124-168-182-74.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:53:42 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:53:45 although I wonder if the obvious loophole has been seen already 22:53:57 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EFEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:16 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:16 "cmucl/debian incident"? 22:54:26 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 22:54:54 nyef: look on planet lisp. tl;dr: CMUCL is too much of a pain to build. 22:55:01 Ah. 22:55:33 -!- TDT [n=user@206.196.111.202] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:38 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224120118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:47 It would certainly possible for the maintainer to make it automatically buildable from various different previous versions of CMUCL. 22:56:00 There's manual work now, but that could be made into a script instead 22:56:15 a script? god forbids 22:56:18 Ah. 22:56:31 a lot is possible. But another posibility is shiping source which just "prints" the binary to a file. 22:56:31 automation is for girly men 22:56:37 and voila. 22:56:52 The FTP-team wants to make all packages built automatically and in a reproducible environment, which is a quite worthy goal. 22:57:06 it should have been automated in the first place. 22:57:06 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:07 rpg: there's this program for doing some plane-related stuff. I forget its name, but it has a windows gui. Not sure what it uses, though. 22:57:20 and indeed, it was, quite successfully. The result was sbcl. 22:57:23 yup 22:57:40 I'm not really quite sure why CMUCL is developed anymore. 22:57:45 sykopomp: wxCL seems dead... 22:58:09 It's so close to SBCL, it seems like it'd be easy for the remaining developers to just switch over and not have to deal with a crazy build process either. :) 22:58:33 rpg: I've had my eye on http://www.mike-austin.com/inertia/ as a potential project for some time, but I keep getting into other things :) 22:58:48 I'm consistently surprised whenever someone tells me that CMUCL is still maintained. 22:59:20 maintained and developed are different levels of activity 22:59:30 it's still developed 22:59:32 well, a source base that's been around since the pdp-10 and pdp-8 era is not something you just bin. 22:59:35 that is: new features are added 22:59:45 prxq: by moving to SBCL you have not binned it 22:59:50 prxq: you have renamed it and improved it 23:00:10 foom: true. 23:00:57 sykopomp: the plane related program was presented at ECLM. Forgot its name (read about it in blog post). Windows GUI could be either LispWorks or ACL proprietary, I suppose... 23:03:35 while I am not against cmucl being maintained, I have to admit that I don't know a good reason for it. 23:03:54 -!- jawhite [n=jolyonw@124-168-182-74.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 23:05:43 rpg: Lispworks CAPI, "Piano" iirc 23:05:51 jawhite [n=jolyonw@124-168-182-74.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:06:06 rpg: will you plug Minneapolis for ILC 2011? 23:07:14 still, I don't understand why one couldn't ship cmucl uuencoded and have a dependency on sharutils. That should work. You'd have one clean makefile. :-) 23:07:15 does anyone know of a good example of CFFI usage (besides the CFFI/libcurl tutorial)? 23:07:20 Xach: I am deeply tempted. I don't know if there's enough critical mas. 23:07:25 s/mas/mass/ 23:07:31 california has critical maas 23:08:02 I'm trying to do CFFI with opencv, and it has a bunch of funky function signatures, so I'm looking for more examples 23:08:22 Xach: Primary issue would be having someone else willing to work with me to do local arrangements. In the summer, the U of M might be a reasonably nice venue. 23:08:44 Possibly hotel + dorm as inexepensive alternative.... 23:09:16 ryepup1: what kind of signatures? 23:10:14 ryepup1: i used pipes for that 23:10:20 prxq: "void doStuff( &something )" -- not sure how to defctype for "&something" and the guess/check approach with :pointer and (pointer-address) was failing me 23:10:41 rpg: We stayed in dorms for '05. 23:10:49 At least I did ... 23:11:17 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Getting off stoned server - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 23:11:36 skeptomai|away [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:40 ryepup1: that's c++, i gather. Normally you'd need a C wrapper for that. 23:11:40 sorry --- must go and fetch son from day care.... back in a while. I'll see if anyone at the meeting on monday is motivated to submit an ILC 2011 bid. 23:12:00 *sellout* doesn't know who to back for ILC '11. I expect to be touring the world at that point. 23:12:02 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:12:19 prxq: I thought I was looking at the C opencv API, but maybe it's not accurate 23:12:32 Fare [n=Fare@155.41.162.158] has joined #lisp 23:13:16 thanks for help, all, gotta run 23:13:18 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 23:13:44 I hope someone from a nice exotic country and/or nice weathered resort bids and wins 23:13:56 easter island! 23:14:14 today I spent the whole evening debugging something just to realize that I had an FFI linkage problem. 23:14:37 matlisp and another lib that used a different lapack. 23:15:12 actually, there seem to be plenty of lispers with a vietnamese background 23:15:29 and I wouldn't mind visiting vietnam again :) 23:15:39 -!- beauty is now known as arabesca 23:16:48 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:20:51 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-10-199.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:21:00 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-77-125.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:22:20 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:22:58 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.124] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:24:05 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 23:25:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:27:11 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:31 demmeln [n=Adium@188.104.85.104] has joined #lisp 23:29:39 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:13 -!- spaceodyssey [n=algol@unaffiliated/fdd] has quit ["101001110110^|^<#4][.0.2.6."] 23:33:39 ... Clearly, I'm missing something. I have, as input, an array of (signed-byte 16) values that are time-domain samples at some sampling frequency. I wish to transform them to the frequency domain, which calls for an FFT. The two FFT libraries I've looked at so far (bordeaux-fft and cl-fft) both appear to take arrays of complex-floats as input. From what I've read elsewhere, it is both possible and reasonable to do an FFT on real ( 23:33:39 as opposed to complex) input. What am I missing? 23:35:27 -!- Fare [n=Fare@155.41.162.158] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:36:07 Maybe those libraries are designed for two-dimensional FFTs??? 23:36:09 nyef: Have you looked at GSLL? It will take real. 23:36:19 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:07 Guest94084: Bordeaux-FFT is apparently one-dimensional only, CL-FFT is n-dimensional. 23:37:46 LiamH: That may be my next stop, then, but something still feels missing. 23:38:09 the venerable sapac-lisp does real input as well as complex. 23:38:19 its fft, i mean. 23:38:40 nyef: what exactly do you mean by 'missing'? 23:38:52 nyef: I think we did a complete port, but we haven't finished the tests. But it should work. And I'm interested in a real-life user, so if you give it a try I'd like to know how it works out. 23:40:02 prxq: I think it's that I'm sufficiently unfamiliar with the entire problem/solution space as to not understand why complex-only FFT implementations seem to be preferred. 23:40:17 nyef: there's my fftw-ffi stuff which I think does fft on reals 23:40:26 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 23:40:29 but it's been a while since I've looked at it... 23:41:10 nyef: I'm no FFT expert, but I think Fourier transforms are inherently complex (due to the exponent). There are tricks for simplifying when the input is real, and GSL has this "half complex" notion for keeping the result real but unpacking it correctly as a complex. 23:42:47 fuss1 [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:42:47 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:50 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 23:45:20 LiamH: yes, I think your description is accurate 23:45:31 nyef: complex numbers are a closed system 23:45:37 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:45:38 real numbers aren't 23:46:18 in general, complex math is easier to analyze than real math 23:46:28 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.157.222.92] has joined #lisp 23:46:33 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:46:58 -!- fuss1 [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:47:12 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:32 I think the formulae for computing FFTs involve (expt (* i ...)) 23:47:36 er exp 23:47:58 p_l [i=plasek@89.248.166.201] has joined #lisp 23:49:43 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:49:48 -!- arabesca [n=beauty@83.231.63.243] has quit [] 23:50:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.157.222.92] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:47 -!- davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:02 -!- p_l|webchat [i=8b850725@gateway/web/freenode/x-ikrqguxkqhbiwdbv] has quit [] 23:53:52 rahul: I would like to meet a Lisper with a Vietnamese background. 23:53:54 ... The GSL documentation would probably be easier to read if the math weren't in TeX and possibly stripped. 23:55:18 tessier: well, there's Fare, most famously 23:55:35 hmm I guess the rest might be beach's students 23:56:05 rahul: Fare is Vietnamese? 23:56:11 pkhuong is more directly vietnamese 23:56:23 Fare: You are ethnic Vietnamese but live in the US? 23:56:25 beach is making a lot of vietnamese lispers 23:56:43 Wish I had known about the Vietnamese Lispers while I lived in Sai Gon. 23:56:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 23:56:57 tessier, my mom is vietnamese. I'm a tây lai. 23:57:08 Fare: I see. 23:57:45 note: not a m lai, though I currently live in the US 23:58:57 Fare: what's a "tây lai" ?