00:00:06 p_l: define "runtime" then. 00:00:19 which are used for subroutine linkage, even 00:00:22 (they also double as stack) 00:00:22 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-141-205.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:00:35 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-80-10.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:00:58 Don't variable-sized windows refer to the ability to rotate by an arbitrary number of registers? 00:01:34 pkhuong: the size of the window changes as well (there are two registers that inform you of the beginning of the current register-space and end) 00:01:59 What? And that changes arbitrarily during runtime? 00:02:24 yes 00:02:38 That's terminally stupid. 00:03:11 Unless... The size of the window depends on the caller, right (i.e., it can be part of the calling convention).? 00:03:44 basically, CALL shifts the window through the register file 00:04:02 -!- sebyte [n=sebyte@vps203.linuxvps.org] has left #lisp 00:04:46 yes. But it's up to the user of CALL to specify the size of the current (caller's) window. 00:05:07 -!- davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:31 or I might be reading something incorrectly. I need to better understand how register stack is partitioned 00:05:50 (seriously, 1024 local registers o_O) 00:06:24 Instruction encoding for that must be a pain. 00:07:08 p_l: simultaneously addressable? 00:07:19 pkhuong: up to 256 addressable at the same time 00:07:36 p_l what cpu is that 00:07:38 the 256 available registers are divided into local and global 00:07:44 _deepfire pasted "core restart/slime-reconnect breakage" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90874 00:07:46 Guthur: Knuth's replacement for MIX 00:07:57 MMIX. And for some reason I took upon myself to implement it 00:08:07 Hrm. 32-bit instruction words, three-address code, up to 256 opcodes? 00:08:08 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-97-246.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:08:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:54 256 opcodes (all filled), three formats: OP X Y Z, OP X YZ, OP XYZ 00:08:57 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:57 _deepfire annotated #90874 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90874#1 00:09:01 Very similar to Itanium then. It makes for neat asm tricks, but ISTR a comparative study that concludes that current compiler technology is better suited to a flat register file. 00:11:00 *p_l* decides to read the cpu simulator source for that 00:12:23 ... I'm not sure who was the insane person, but someone wrote MMIX simulator in MMIX assembler 00:13:33 <_deepfire> Turing machine's equivalent for lisp implementation of itself.. 00:14:47 <_deepfire> tcr, I pasted the wrap-up 00:15:47 ... C code generated by CWEB is hard to read 00:16:06 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:17:21 p_l: I'm given to understand that you're not supposed to have to read it. 00:18:13 -!- brita_ [n=stitch@213.63.200.11] has quit ["leaving"] 00:18:24 nyef: definitely 00:20:03 p_l have your read knuths books 00:20:17 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-67-188-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:20:30 your/you 00:20:54 Paraselene__ [n=None@79-67-188-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:43 nope, only fragments 00:27:10 CLWEB supposedly pretty-prints very nicely ... basically trying to maintain the code structure from the mixed document. 00:28:41 sellout: it uses READ for source code... 00:28:45 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FD96.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:29:41 ... Something seems -wrong- with the CLIM specification. Something around the notion of grafts/mirrors, frame managers and ports. 00:29:42 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 00:31:11 pkhuong: Not sure what you mean. 00:31:28 nyef: ? 00:32:01 I get the feeling that chapter 9 giveth and chapter 28 taketh away. 00:32:37 -!- sooth [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:32:46 sellout: CLWEB uses CL:READ to slurp source code in. While it attempts to reconstruct indentation, it can't preserve everything. 00:34:05 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 00:34:18 pkhuong: but he's overridden like every reader macro, so he can maintain character positions as he reads in forms. 00:34:33 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:36:28 nan8 [n=user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 00:38:14 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:31 Hrm... There's an obvious test-case for that indentation handling. Do an m-v-b, put the variables and the multiple-value-form on separate lines, follow up with a body, and indent per what emacs usually does. You have three separate levels of indent over the first three lines. 00:39:32 ... Yeah, that's wrong. 00:39:42 In the clweb beta. 00:40:24 Indented the variables and the m-v form the same amount, which is wrong, then correctly outdented for the body. 00:41:30 ju_an [n=juan@ool-4576d73e.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:16 hello everybody, what are some good beginner tutorials for lisp? thank you! 00:44:43 minion: tell ju_an about PCL 00:44:44 ju_an: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:45:05 thank you very much! 00:45:27 -!- ju_an [n=juan@ool-4576d73e.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 00:45:56 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:21 ericjames [n=ericjeld@dynamic-acs-24-144-138-134.zoominternet.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:58 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["."] 00:52:21 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:55:46 -!- yahooooo0 [n=yahooooo@67.170.39.104] has quit [Killed by Md (broken bot, please contact staff)] 00:56:18 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-39-104.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:02 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-80-10.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:01:32 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:27 Is anyone using cl-darcs successfully? It compiles fine, but it doesn't work, complains about incompatible types (flexi-io-stream and fd-stream). 01:02:40 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f755494.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:50 This happens when I use darcs:get-repo 01:03:11 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:03:19 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:04:38 Sikander: I tried using cl-darcs some time ago and eventually gave up. 01:04:47 These days I just use git anyway. 01:05:07 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:05:16 nyef: yeah, but clbuild is in darcs... Why darcs for god's sake... 01:05:48 has anyone been able to build sbcl 1.0.32.33 or later on Windows? 01:05:52 May I point out that clbuild is a shell script and needs access to every version control system under the sun anyway, and thus you may as well use the normal darcs client? 01:06:25 piso: I haven't tried, but should still have a build environment set up if necessary, why? 01:06:47 Yeah, that's true... But cl-darcs claims to have a command-line tool that does a darcs get (or pull or whatever they call it). So I wouldn't need to get $#!% Haskell just to build darcs! 01:06:54 (and yes, I'm on gentoo) 01:07:06 I get error: conflicting types for 'boolean' at runtime.h:230 01:07:26 when building grovel-headers.c 01:08:02 Hrm. runtime.h has specific magic for win32. 01:08:50 there's an interesting comment just above line 230 01:09:13 What is it, "there be dragons here"? 01:09:20 runtime.h was last changed at 1.0.30.11. 01:09:35 Sikander: More or less, yes. 01:09:36 starting with the 1.0.32.33 commit, grovel-headers.c #includes gc.h 01:09:39 heheh 01:09:43 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:53 Hrm. And the change in 1.0.30.11 shouldn't break win32 from what I see. 01:11:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:29 no, I've built 1.0.32.32 (I think) 01:12:10 I've -definitely- built 1.0.32.30 01:12:29 maybe not .32, though 01:12:42 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.232] has joined #lisp 01:14:04 How odd. 01:14:35 LISP_FEATURE_WIN32 should definately be defined by that point. 01:14:35 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@dynamic-acs-24-144-138-134.zoominternet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:15:03 Where's the definition of the boolean type it's conflicting with? 01:15:16 piso pasted "sbcl windows build error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90878 01:15:29 Ahh. 01:15:42 Okay, clearly something -else- is including rpcndr.h before runtime.h does. 01:15:51 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-88-232.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:16:08 Heh. And it's because it's coming from grovel-headers.c. 01:16:14 Sikander: you could wget from darcs repos. 01:16:25 Which includes a bunch of win32 stuff before it starts pulling in from the sbcl headers. 01:17:05 pkhuong: Ah, that's a good idea. 01:17:23 jawhite [n=jolyonw@124-171-50-213.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:17:52 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:59 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:18:05 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 01:19:52 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 01:20:13 nyef: I've been looking at fonts in clx, but it appears that if you use a graphics context without explicitly naming a font, you get a pseudo-font, which doesn't have a name 01:20:27 nyef: So I can't do the transform matrix trick. 01:20:50 A CLX GContext? 01:20:53 yes 01:20:59 There's a default font or something. 01:21:02 I forget the details. 01:21:33 But, honestly, there's little excuse for not setting a font explicitly. 01:21:41 I tried just making a context without explicitly setting the font, and then doing a (gcontext-font gc), returning null 01:22:00 Hmmm, it appears that mcclim doesn't set a font explicitly. 01:22:04 Or does it? 01:22:24 And if it should, which one should it be? 01:22:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:23:23 sorry to keep bothering you with this, but you seem to know a lot about this... 01:23:41 Legacy of a mis-spent youth. 01:23:49 heheh 01:25:46 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:27:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:30:13 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:09 "fixed" is the default X font 01:31:10 usually 01:33:21 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:49 rahul: gcontext-font returns nil when I create a context in clx without explicitly setting a font. This means it's a pseudo-font, right? 01:40:05 rahul: so is "fixed" a pseudo-font? 01:40:07 Sikander: Actually, it might mean that there's a bug in CLX. 01:40:20 NNNNOOOOOOOooooooooooo......................... 01:40:29 Where will this end?! 01:42:12 Okay, default font on a GC is server dependent, per the protocol spec. 01:42:35 This also means that a GC -must- have a font. 01:42:39 so this means that the server in my case makes a pseudo-font? 01:43:13 ... No. 01:43:21 Where do you get this idea of a "pseudo-font"? 01:43:40 when doing a (xlib:gcontext-font gc) on a gcontext gc, does it query the server for the font, or does it return what the client thinks is the font? 01:43:46 pseudo-font from the clx manual 01:43:54 Hrm. 01:43:58 Don't know. 01:44:09 the clx manual says that gcontext-font returns nil if the current font is a pseudo-font. 01:44:10 How about passing the gcontext directly to query-font? 01:44:21 Hmm... 01:44:27 Does the clx manual also define pseudo-font? 01:44:38 -!- nan8 [n=user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has left #lisp 01:45:17 not in a way that I can immediately understand. 01:45:49 what is this query-font? 01:46:22 QueryFont is request opcode 47. 01:46:28 I see 01:46:37 it's apparently not exported? 01:47:02 I'm working from the protocol docs here, not from CLX, so there's bound to be some amount of mismatch. 01:48:38 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:48 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:31 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp137.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:49:32 I understand 01:50:15 Suddenly, the task of getting rotated text is becoming orders of magnitude more difficult... 01:50:36 For a newbie like me at least... 01:53:43 Ah, okay, CLX manual, chapter 9, paragraph three: "In some cases, CLX may create a -pseudo-font- object solely for the purpose of accessing font attributes." 01:55:20 Okay, so if CLX doesn't know what font is associated with a GContext, you need to pass an optional second argument that is a true generalized boolean (that is, non-nil) in order to get a pseudo-font. 01:55:26 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:55:26 -!- majhool_ [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:55:26 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:55:26 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:55:26 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-197-189.net.novis.pt] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:55:26 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:55:33 -!- jawhite [n=jolyonw@124-171-50-213.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:55:42 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has joined #lisp 01:55:59 From there, you might be able to call font-properties and find something useful there. 01:56:08 But that's a bit of guesswork, really. 01:56:55 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:55 majhool_ [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:55 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:56:55 TR2N [i=email@89-180-197-189.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 01:56:55 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:57:12 nyef: Yes, but it also explicitly says that when you pass t, it will return a pseudo font that has no name 01:57:26 Right, so you need to try and recover the name by other means. 01:57:31 And the name is where the interesting bit is I guess 01:57:42 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:57:45 -!- rahul [rjain@clozure-6C5C827B.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 01:57:53 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-197-189.net.novis.pt] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:58:15 So as I understand, I need to get the name of the current font, replace the pixelsize with a transform matrix, and use that name (which is a stringable) to set the new font. 01:58:30 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:58:50 Actually, you can probably re-create the name from the properties. 01:58:55 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:56 Do you know if the name works like a bitfield? 01:59:04 Since most of the properties correspond to fields in the XLFDC. 01:59:16 In other words, can I just set -*-*-*...-pixelsize-*-*... 01:59:25 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest90690 01:59:31 and keep the rest of the fields untouched? 01:59:36 that would be the most ideal thing 01:59:45 I don't think it works that way. 01:59:51 d'oh! 02:00:01 But, as I said, I think you can reconstruct the name from the properties. 02:00:05 yeah 02:00:23 I'll get the properties list and see what happens. 02:00:26 ragnul [n=rjain@66.234.32.150] has joined #lisp 02:01:23 Nope. It has none 02:01:24 jaws [n=jolyonw@124-171-50-213.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:01:30 None? 02:01:32 WTF? 02:01:52 No name, no plist, no font-info-internal, no char-info-internal 02:01:58 char-infos-internal 02:02:13 I use (describe (xlib:gcontext-font gc t)) 02:02:15 Okay, does it at least have a font-id? 02:02:19 yes 02:02:24 nyef: I sent mail to sbcl-devel about the Windows build problem 02:02:35 But if I remember correctly from the clx manual, it's not a valid id 02:02:37 And calling font-properties on the font doesn't return anything useful? 02:02:43 Not valid how? 02:02:44 TR2N` [i=email@89.180.197.189] has joined #lisp 02:04:06 Wait, it has an ID-INTERNAL 02:04:24 Lemme try what happens with that 02:05:43 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 02:06:31 Strange, the CLX manual (5-61) says that a pseudo-font has no name and no resource id. but xlib:font-id returns a fixnum 02:06:47 *_deepfire* wonders what "Changing the class of an instance does not change its identity as defined by the eq function." means. 02:06:55 No resource ID? WTF? 02:07:36 Wait, I DO get a resource id, but the manual says I shouldn't 02:08:23 How can I use the id to get a valid font? 02:08:24 Yeah, the manual is obviously wrong there: The entire point is that you got the resource ID from the server and thus don't know the name unless you opened the font via CLX in the first place. 02:10:06 I guess you're right. The docs for font-id don't mention that it should return nil for a pseudo-font, whereas font-name does. 02:10:10 piso: Yeah, calling attention to it on sbcl-devel is probably right, as it's clearly related to the kludge in runtime.h not being properly propagated. 02:10:21 So yes, I should, and do, get a resource id. 02:10:31 How can I obtain info with this ID? 02:11:34 Or is it possible to just fiddle with one field of the xlfdc when you have this ID? 02:11:41 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:52 Hang on, trying something. 02:12:46 *Sikander* waits patiently. 02:14:06 No, I get something useful from calling fontname-properties. 02:14:10 Well, sortof. 02:14:34 ? 02:14:37 What do you do? 02:15:09 *nyef* frowns. 02:15:28 Okay, I get a list of properties, but they're not what I was hoping for. 02:15:55 Does gcontext-font give you something of which the plist field is non-nil? 02:16:21 No, but if I call font-properties on it anyway I get a plist which is non-nil. 02:16:29 ?! 02:16:38 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:16:49 Ah, font-plist and font-properties are disjoint. 02:16:59 font-plist is for the local CLX junk and font-properties is from the server. 02:17:13 Ah, I get numbers 02:17:21 Yeah, so do I, which worries me. 02:17:29 Yes... 02:17:50 but font-name returns the local name, which is nil 02:17:58 And font-property claims that it's supposed to be an "uninterpreted 32-bit integer", which is... unhelpful. 02:18:08 yes 02:18:11 woohoo! 02:18:30 So, back to the protocol docs... 02:18:35 if there only was an xlib:interpret-uniterpreted-32-bit-integer function 02:19:22 Ahh, and the protocol spec refers me back to the XLFDC spec. 02:19:44 Does this mean that what I want to do, fiddling around with only one field as defined in the xlfdc, I need to also fiddle around in clx itself? 02:19:54 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:30 I'm sure that it should be possible via the protocol, but if it's not possible via clx, then this means there's something missing... 02:21:33 Ah! Some of the numeric codes can be looked up as atoms via atom-name. 02:21:45 aha 02:21:55 And that gives the field components for reconstructing the font name by LFD rules. 02:21:59 *p_l* probably will finally fix his OpenGenera problems 02:22:25 Is atom-name in clx? 02:22:32 Yes. 02:22:38 I'll try that then. 02:23:12 Is it possible to create a new gcontext from another one (i.e. copy it)? 02:23:23 gcontext-copy requires both a source and dest 02:23:39 Yeah, you create the new one and then copy the old one over it. 02:23:50 elegant... 02:23:56 (not really) 02:24:17 Ok, thanks very much for your help, nyef 02:24:22 Well, there might be some crazy default scheme that I'm not aware of... 02:24:24 No problem. 02:24:27 Good luck. 02:24:30 Thanks 02:24:44 But since it's almost 3.30am now, I really should get some sleep 02:24:57 Goodnight, and thanks a lot 02:25:07 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to sleep"] 02:31:06 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:31:44 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:43 -!- majhool_ [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:32:43 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:32:43 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:33:28 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:28 majhool_ [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:28 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 02:33:51 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-93-116.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:52 G'night all. 02:40:08 it is almost 4 in the morning 02:41:09 it is indeed a good night .. soon it is 2010 .. that means we'll all be flying around in flying cars and using lisp OS's 02:41:55 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:43:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:46:24 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-124-22.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:46:51 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-169-202.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:57 TR2N` [i=email@89.180.197.189] has joined #lisp 02:47:43 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-169-202.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:19 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.197.189] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- ragnul [n=rjain@66.234.32.150] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-76-180-175-226.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- joga [i=joga@83.150.90.112] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@64.71.152.39] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91.66.191.155] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- BrianRice [n=water@76.115.44.87] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.226.79] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@173.176.100.238] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- mgr [n=mgr@213.239.218.99] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- Computer [n=Computer@unaffiliated/computer] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- Drakeson [n=user@69-196-172-71.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-124-22.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:19 -!- trittweiler [n=tcr@131.159.18.243] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:48:48 TR2N [i=email@89.180.197.189] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 ragnul [n=rjain@66.234.32.150] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 joga [i=joga@83.150.90.112] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 djinni` [n=djinni`@64.71.152.39] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91.66.191.155] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 BrianRice [n=water@76.115.44.87] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.226.79] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@173.176.100.238] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 mgr [n=mgr@213.239.218.99] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 Computer [n=Computer@unaffiliated/computer] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 Drakeson [n=user@69-196-172-71.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 trittweiler [n=tcr@131.159.18.243] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:27 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.197.189] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:50:32 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 02:52:11 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:53:02 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:54:15 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 02:54:49 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:07 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@173.176.100.238] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:08 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:55:13 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:55:13 -!- ragnul [n=rjain@66.234.32.150] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:21 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:25 rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:28 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:08 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:56:47 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:56:48 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:58 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:41 -!- GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:57:53 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:28 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:58:42 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:52 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:05 WhiteFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:45 -!- mgr [n=mgr@213.239.218.99] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91.66.191.155] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- Drakeson [n=user@69-196-172-71.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- joga [i=joga@83.150.90.112] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- trittweiler [n=tcr@131.159.18.243] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.226.79] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@64.71.152.39] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- BrianRice [n=water@76.115.44.87] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- Computer [n=Computer@unaffiliated/computer] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:01:45 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:03:32 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:32 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:03:43 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 joga [i=joga@83.150.90.112] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 djinni` [n=djinni`@64.71.152.39] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91.66.191.155] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 BrianRice [n=water@76.115.44.87] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.226.79] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 mgr [n=mgr@213.239.218.99] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 Computer [n=Computer@unaffiliated/computer] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 trittweiler [n=tcr@131.159.18.243] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:57 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:57 -!- mgr [n=mgr@213.239.218.99] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:02 mgr [n=mgr@213.239.218.99] has joined #lisp 03:04:14 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:20 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:20 -!- joga [i=joga@83.150.90.112] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:21 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-158-9.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:34 -!- Computer [n=Computer@unaffiliated/computer] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:43 Computer_ [n=Computer@209-16-114-100.net.bhntampa.com] has joined #lisp 03:04:49 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:04:54 voidpointe_ [n=Void@200.100.182.242] has joined #lisp 03:05:22 -!- cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:05:23 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:05:41 johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-76-180-175-226.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:44 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:44 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 03:06:17 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 03:06:24 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@64.71.152.39] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:06:56 luis`` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 03:07:14 -!- timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:08:00 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 03:08:05 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:08:05 -!- johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-76-180-175-226.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:08:05 -!- voidpointe_ [n=Void@200.100.182.242] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:08:05 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-169-202.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:08:05 -!- majhool_ [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:08:05 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:08:27 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 03:08:33 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:08:44 lazz0 [n=blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #lisp 03:08:51 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 03:08:51 voidpointe_ [n=Void@200.100.182.242] has joined #lisp 03:08:51 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-169-202.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:51 majhool_ [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:08:51 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 03:08:55 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:00 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:09:24 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@78.47.2.107] has joined #lisp 03:09:37 drewc` [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 03:09:37 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:09:46 borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 03:09:47 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91.66.191.155] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:53 johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-76-180-175-226.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:54 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:58 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 03:10:05 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 03:10:06 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.197.189] has quit ["Time left until the Epochalypse: 28yrs 8wks 2days 3mins 43secs"] 03:10:41 TR2N [i=email@89.180.197.189] has joined #lisp 03:11:02 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:36 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-178-135-94.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:55 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has joined #lisp 03:12:58 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:19 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 03:17:58 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:18:54 davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:35 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 03:21:05 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has quit [] 03:21:34 -!- voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit [Success] 03:23:12 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has quit [Success] 03:26:40 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.30] has joined #lisp 03:30:26 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-178-135-94.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:33:55 -!- melba [n=blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:35:23 -!- luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:38:45 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:41 so can anyone explain to me how the optimized accessor functions are triggered? I want to trigger it for my own overridden s-v-u-c methods 03:45:47 with my own code 03:46:02 I see get-accessor-method-function 03:46:38 -!- voidpointe_ [n=Void@200.100.182.242] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:48:16 -!- dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:49:55 ooo compute-slot-accessor-info 03:50:01 this could be easier than I ever imagined 03:50:16 (incf gerd) 03:52:40 -!- jaws [n=jolyonw@124-171-50-213.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 04:00:03 jaws [n=jolyonw@124-171-50-213.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:01:21 grr. get-optimized-accessor-function will not let me install my own method and still have it get called 04:09:37 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-201-145.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:42 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:34 beach`` [n=user@90.60.123.22] has joined #lisp 04:10:56 mogunus`` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:57 ASau`` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 04:11:30 porcelina_ [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:36 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Getting off stoned server - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 04:11:43 hmm wait. I wonder if the code later in that ends up grabbing my s-v-u-c override and bypassing the s-v lookup 04:11:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:47 -!- Pavitra [n=pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:47 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-124-22.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:47 -!- porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:54 -!- mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Dead socket] 04:11:54 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Broken pipe] 04:12:00 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 04:12:03 Pavitra [n=pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:36 -!- skeptomai|awa- is now known as skeptomai|away 04:15:30 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:17:37 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.226.79] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:52 -!- davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:40 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.232] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:29:22 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:32:28 -!- WhiteFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 04:34:05 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 04:34:53 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 04:35:32 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:48 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.30] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:42:30 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:47:14 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:47:56 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179160079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:52:10 redblue [i=star@207.253.108.38] has joined #lisp 04:53:30 -!- mogunus`` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:08:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:19 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has joined #lisp 05:17:44 binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has joined #lisp 05:18:09 What's the most popular flavour of Lisp and what is the most popular cross-platform compiler for it? 05:18:19 Is it Common Lisp? 05:20:04 binrapt: CL is the most popular one in this channel atleast. 05:20:20 Which compiler should I be using as a newbie? 05:20:27 Need it to work on both Windows and Linux 05:20:51 SBCL will be the one that is easiest to get support for here. But CCL or clisp will work just fine I guess :) 05:21:02 Ok thanks 05:21:19 I'm not sure how well SBCL actually runs on windows. 05:23:33 binrapt: I swear I know you from somewhere. 05:23:44 Ralith I have never seen you bfore 05:23:46 *before even 05:24:24 I'm just kidding, bhdev, no? 05:24:58 ah yeah 05:24:59 sup 05:25:15 what brings you to CL? 05:29:41 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:02 Ralith oh, I don't know, it's difficult to see 05:30:07 Err, s/see/say/ 05:30:33 On the one hand I'd like to expand my horizons in programming so I looked into Haskell and Lisp at times 05:31:04 But then I was always scared away by how difficult seemingly simple tasks seem in predominantly functional programming 05:31:13 But actually I haven't touched Lisp so far, only Haskell 05:32:00 One of my mates is a huge fan of CL and he hates Haskell with a passion because of its "inconsiderate introduction of new syntax and other features with little regard to the problems they introduce" 05:32:04 Or something along those lines 05:32:35 binrapt: well, welcome to the winning team ^^ 05:32:50 CL is not a "functional" programming language in the sense that haskell is. 05:33:00 you *can* program functionally, but it's optional. 05:33:07 you can use whatever paradigm you like, or all of them at once, even. 05:33:21 Hardly, I am totally imperative at heart and whenever I encounter some syntax which annoys me I dislike a language instantly 05:33:25 this is one (of many) reasons why "seemingly simple tasks" are very easy in CL. 05:33:39 Lisp has generally more typing overhead than what I'm used to, I believe 05:33:47 you can use whatever technique is most natural for the problem or the programmer. 05:33:51 binrapt: depends. 05:33:55 Yeah that might be true 05:34:01 CL style favors descriptive naming 05:34:33 otoh, there is good support in emacs+SLIME for tab completion and optional automatic parenthesis management 05:34:35 The only programming languages I've been using constantly in the past 7 years have been C++ and Python really 05:34:59 (emacs+SLIME is, afaik, the de-facto standard CL IDE) 05:35:10 Haha my CL mate is a huge fan of emacs, too 05:35:13 He even uses ERC 05:35:17 most lispers are. 05:35:20 I don't go that far myself 05:35:29 but I use it for all serious text-editing tasks. 05:35:40 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:36:08 anyway, want some pointers for getting started? 05:36:10 I mostly use Geany on both Windows and Linux 05:36:29 But I do all my C++ development in Visual Studio on Windows 05:36:33 Even cross-platform stuff 05:36:44 emacs+SLIME is sorta the visual studio of CL 05:36:53 except with less bloat 05:37:23 I wish there was a graphical debugger as good as Visual Studio's for Linux 05:37:38 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:38:23 Somebody showed me some gdb extensions which allow you to step and browse local variables with special extensions for C++ STL stuff 05:38:40 But it's all clumsy CLI stuff still :( very slow to go through a lot of information 05:38:41 you'll love the slime debugger. 05:38:53 it's very powerful. 05:39:01 But I don't know what debugging Lisp or even Haskell code is even like really 05:39:14 Haskell's no fun at all 05:39:23 Side effects are no fun in Haskell 05:39:25 but CL benefits a lot from its dynamic nature here 05:39:31 nothing's much fun in Haskell >_> 05:39:35 Monads greatly annoy me 05:40:14 the conventional style of short, line-noise-y symbols annoyed me more 05:40:37 but anyway! 05:40:44 What symbols do you mean? 05:40:49 Like mMap2FR? 05:41:01 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.62.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:41:16 the ones I had in mind were more the seemingly-random combinations of shift+number row 05:41:32 but even the pronouncable ones tended to be pretty bad, yeah 05:41:47 but enough of that 05:42:00 binrapt: I'd be happy to give you a hand bootstrapping into CL, if you like. 05:42:21 I don't know if it's worth it, I'll probably lose interest soon 05:42:37 I'm currently looking into web development again, not sure what language I should go for, I hate PHP so much 05:42:40 I doubt it 05:42:42 CL is a dream. 05:42:44 I need to replace like 300+ KiB of old code 05:43:00 I tried CL for basically the same reasons I tried Haskell 05:43:09 adventerousness, boredom, etc. 05:43:30 now it's been a long time since I've written code in anything else. 05:43:42 I was also working on a scripting language recently but there are some still some bugs in the parser and I haven't even started working on the interpreter yet 05:44:01 Which is another reason why I was looking into new languages I had no experience with 05:44:08 CL is actually a great web language, if you want to use it that way. 05:44:14 there are several toolkits for such use. 05:44:23 I suppose it's usually used as a persistent service? 05:44:27 you'll have to ask someone else about them as that's not my sort of thing. 05:44:34 Instead of the PHP per-request method 05:44:41 uh, there are lots of different approaches 05:44:56 the implementation will almost certainly be running continuously, I imagine 05:45:03 binrapt: yes, persistent process with multiple threads, not a CGI model. 05:45:28 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 05:45:38 Good morning! 05:46:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A7939.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:51 binrapt: so c'mon, give CL a go. We've got docs to put real world haskell to shame. 05:48:51 -!- majhool_ [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["leaving"] 05:49:01 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:33 benny [n=benny@i577A14B2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:50:43 Ralith: I found real world haskell a mess to read and understand. So yes, we have those docs. 05:50:46 and hello to beach :) 05:51:17 binrapt: I seem to recall someone in this channel is doing webstuff on windows using CL. 05:51:40 Well I run Ubuntu in VirtualBox all the time 05:52:15 It is somewhat easier to get set up on linux 05:52:18 But my main development box is also my gaming box so I can't really move away from Windows, but it works fine in a VM, I can enjoy the best of both worlds this way, it's just one window away 05:52:22 but most things work fine on both platforms. 05:52:43 I use the VM a lot right now to get all the stuff I wrote on Windows working on Ubuntu and Debian 05:52:59 Oh I see I see. 05:53:02 Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-63-81.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:53:20 binrapt: I think whoever it was was actually deving on non-windows and deploying on windows. 05:53:27 Hahaha 05:53:38 but I am under the impression that slime + sbcl works better on non-windows 05:53:51 But I dunno. never tried it on windows. 05:53:54 IS WINDOWS STILL AROUND!? 05:54:19 Yeah, still a 94%+ desktop market share apparently ;/ 05:54:47 SBCL on windows is experimental 05:54:50 schme: in my world, it looks like OS X for laptops and linux or solaris for real machines. 05:54:51 but CCL works fine there, iirc. 05:55:04 and I have no reason to believe emacs and SLIME wouldn't 05:55:11 I use Ubuntu on my desktop, Debian on my router and on my dedicated server 05:55:19 Windows 7 on the dev/gaming box 05:55:20 I know emacs does, and SLIME is just emacs extensions and lisp code. 05:55:45 pkhuong: :) 05:55:57 pkhuong: I mostly just see OS X for real work. (: 05:56:05 *schme* shrugs. 05:56:13 minion: tell binrapt about pcl 05:56:15 binrapt: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:56:19 Err s/desktop/notebook/ 05:56:33 Oh yeah my CL mate recommended that one to me too 05:56:39 oh :) 05:57:27 good, sounds like has a reasonable idea what he's about. 05:58:58 Oh yeah he's quite a hacker, he wrote a BitTorrent + eDonkey + DirectConnect + something else cross protocol warez leeching client in Common Lisp 05:59:02 I was quite impressed with that 05:59:13 Since I even failed at implementing a Direct Connect client properly 05:59:23 CL is *very* good at rapid development. 05:59:32 see Graham's Beating the Averages essay. 05:59:48 Haha Cthulhon linked that just yesterday 05:59:50 (if I remember its name correctly) 05:59:53 Cthulhon? 05:59:56 him, of all people? 05:59:57 Actually it is one of the reasons I had to think of CL again 06:00:12 binrapt: don't take anything graham says seriously 06:00:21 he's a blowhard who doesn't know how to code 06:00:29 :P 06:00:33 as opposed to knuth who is a genius who doesn't know how to code :) 06:00:34 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@92.229.173.23] has joined #lisp 06:00:39 binrapt: in a similar vein is http://www.lissys.demon.co.uk/secrets.html 06:01:07 well, I guess pg is good at writing motivational marketing kinda crap 06:01:12 binrapt: which refers to http://piano.aero/ which is big-deal aerospace software. 06:01:42 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179160079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:01:46 so... it turns out that my formulate stuff may get optimized quite well by SBCL 06:01:49 thanks to Gerd 06:02:11 *rahul* better disassemble some code to see 06:10:46 wtf. the method defined on the damn thing has no code in its function object 06:11:10 but it does have the wrapper for my class in the permutation vector... 06:21:41 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:28:40 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 06:31:30 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.74.18] has quit ["leaving"] 06:33:51 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:34:32 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:39:31 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 06:42:41 ASau``` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 06:43:43 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@92.229.173.23] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- ASau`` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- beach [n=user@90.60.123.22] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@78.47.2.107] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- drewc` [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- trittweiler [n=tcr@131.159.18.243] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:43:43 -!- BrianRice [n=water@76.115.44.87] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:44:03 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:44:54 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@92.229.173.23] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 beach [n=user@90.60.123.22] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 drewc` [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@78.47.2.107] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 BrianRice [n=water@76.115.44.87] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 trittweiler [n=tcr@131.159.18.243] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:50:08 -!- jaws [n=jolyonw@124-171-50-213.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 06:54:03 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-88-232.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:59:48 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:01:45 cmsimon [n=cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 07:06:35 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:49 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:10:08 -!- cmsimon [n=cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:12:37 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit ["leaving"] 07:13:16 jrockway [n=jrockway@67.207.145.149] has joined #lisp 07:18:38 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.84.137] has joined #lisp 07:19:42 snearch [n=olaf@e179142029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:34:35 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:35:37 fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has joined #lisp 07:39:40 *beach* thinks the "Lisp community" has a bad case of "Jantelagen". 07:40:13 How so? 07:41:17 They think they're superior to the Java monkeys! How dare they! 07:42:50 schme: I think people like Paul Graham deserve recognition and respect, especially from people who neither got rich from Lisp, nor wrote books about it. But that's not how it works here. If you dare stick your head out by writing some code or some books, you get burned on the stake in public. 07:43:41 schme: And the message this sends to outsiders who might want to try Lisp is, in my opinion, devastating. 07:43:48 Yes, that is a bit sad. 07:44:11 How does Graham "get burnt at the stake in public" 07:44:30 Jafet: read the scrollbacks or the logs. 07:44:35 I'm a bit puzzled by the PG case. People here seem to moan about how his lisp style is not lispy enough. Yet next day you can read people going on about how lisp lacks syntax and lets you do whatever. 07:44:46 I don't see how one really can do anything wrong then. 07:44:53 Maybe they're not the same people. 07:45:04 Or maybe they are ;) 07:45:05 binrapt: don't take anything graham says seriously; he's a blowhard who doesn't know how to code 07:45:37 He seems to have made a good deal of money from his lack of coding knowhow then. 07:46:07 I think OnLisp is a great book. The code is much better than that of most other people who attempt to program. 07:46:13 Well, Graham is a celebrity. Celebrities get made fun of. It goes with the territory. 07:46:14 I was under the impression that he saved me from spam mail, and wrote some webstore before everyone else made webstores. He must know something. 07:46:42 *schme* curses arch linux 07:46:53 If everyone had the same opinion about Graham either way, then you have your jantelagen. 07:47:04 How is that jantelag? 07:47:09 Jafet: Indeed. But I think in the case of our tiny "Lisp community", if we piss all over anyone who tries to make a difference, we deserve what we get as a consequence. 07:47:25 schme: "Don't think you are special" 07:47:33 I don't piss over Graham. I just take everything he says with some NaCl 07:47:43 I think you're overgeneralizing. 07:47:46 beach: Yes, but how does everyone having a good opinion of someone make that don't think yer special? 07:48:08 oh, please. do you see people complaining about gigamonkey or norvig not knowing how to code, or having bad style because they wrote lisp books? 07:48:10 no 07:48:11 schme: Er, I must have missed one step. 07:48:12 Jafet: I take everything everyone says with a grain of salt. 07:48:31 What's this about bad style anyway? 07:48:41 Isn't CL the thing that lets you define your own syntax and code anyway you want? 07:48:57 The difference is, I *know* norvig doesn't know how to code!!1 07:49:16 That sounds more like the cottage industries of scheme, schme 07:49:25 jsnell: True, for some mysterious reason, some people make it, and then the become unanimous heroes. 07:49:42 Jafet: I'm not sure about the expression cottage industries :) 07:50:02 beach: I suggest a simpler solution. pg's published code is actually crap 07:50:18 With the new PLT industrial complex looming over the landscape 07:50:21 *beach* keeps quiet. 07:50:23 this solution has the advantage that it doesn't require a global conspiracy 07:50:33 Only a local one? 07:51:03 jsnell: Oh, it's not a conspiracy at all. It is just a state of mind. 07:52:25 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:52:44 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.124] has joined #lisp 07:52:53 tbh I find grahams books a nicer read than PCL. I found PCL totally boring and confusing :P 07:53:32 schme: Sshh! You can't say that. Gigamonkey is an agreed-upon hero. 07:53:39 yeah I know 07:53:52 OH I SAID IT OUT LOUD 07:53:53 :( 07:54:17 We can burn you at the stake later. 07:54:20 (: 07:54:23 and you ought to bash pg 07:54:43 *schme* fires up slime again after the latest segfaulting sbcl 07:54:49 beach: right, right. we're all envious and resentful towards all those people who manage to get a book published 07:56:03 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:56:13 jsnell: No, not everyone. The vast majority just finds it great to echo such statement, whether they themselves can code or write books, or not. 07:57:31 jsnell: And that's the problem. If serious, well-informed people have some well-founded criticism of a book or some code, that's fine. But then there are the others... 07:58:54 That's a good point there. All I ever hear is "his lisp is not very lispy!" 07:59:42 beach: that seems a very different point from your original "If you dare stick your head out by writing some code or some books, you get burned on the stake in public." 08:00:14 jsnell: You think so? 08:00:17 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:00:53 yes. I think that most people who publish code or books etc don't get vilified 08:01:53 While it might be true that PG's code is "not very Lispy", that's not the most important quality of what he did, in my opinion. The most important quality is that he actually wrote those books, got them published, and by doing so, got people interested in Lisp. 08:02:17 Axius [n=ade@92.82.79.120] has joined #lisp 08:03:28 yes, and other people who wrote books, got them published, and got people interested in lisp are nowhere near as controversial 08:03:48 It is just too easy for people who never try to do anything like that themselves, to piss all over what others actually did. It would be much more productive if those people tried to do something better instead. Of course, most of then would be totally incapable of producing anything near the quality of what PG produced. 08:04:19 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.79.120] has quit [Client Quit] 08:07:11 That makes sense though. 08:07:34 I'm not planning to write a book, but if I did I wouldn't write anything lisp related because my code would get mocked :) 08:08:25 the right thing to do there is to write code that won't be mocked, not to not write code at all 08:09:44 and it's provably possible to do that, despite what beach says about the "state of mind" of the "community" 08:11:28 jsnell: You know, the only efficient way I know of learning is to expose the results of your knowledge so far, and to have others give you feedback. But I know how devastating it could be to the learning process if that feedback is in the form of ridicule. 08:11:59 jsnell: That's a bit odd. One should just magically be able to write code that is Great Quality? 08:12:08 and up until that point not share it with anyone? 08:12:17 umm.. if you're publishing the results of your learning process as a book, ridicule seems quite justified 08:12:33 *beach* is with schme here. 08:12:48 Right. And this is why I'm not writing a book on lisp. 08:12:49 Axius [n=ade@92.82.79.120] has joined #lisp 08:13:06 And this is also why newbies should stay away from Lisp. 08:13:22 I'd rather see more books, regardless of quality. 08:13:48 Because if they ever tried to expose the result of their learning process before becoming experts and/or heroes, they will be ridiculed in public. 08:13:58 HET3 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 08:14:00 the fuck they would 08:14:02 Back when I was actually researching stuff I read a lot of shit quality books. No one in the pol sci field is worried overly worried about publishing books. 08:14:24 maybe this is why there are more people doing pol sci than doing lisp ;) 08:14:25 I was replying specifically to the concept of writing a book containing code that would be mocked 08:14:36 *_3b* doesn't even see 'code that isn't mocked' as a worthy goal, as long as you understand the tradeoffs that cause it to be mocked :) 08:14:57 *schme* finally got gnubg running. 08:14:58 woha 08:15:08 twisting that into a suggestion that a newbie asking for feedback on his code would be savaged is ridiculous 08:15:34 tbh I have seen that happen. But that is not unique to #lisp :) 08:15:36 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.79.120] has quit [Client Quit] 08:15:41 *stassats`* can mock his own code after some time passes 08:15:45 and far more common over in #asm ;) 08:15:48 I wrote the LOOP of DOOM 08:16:13 uh oh 08:17:33 which is a lot less impressive than the square root of DOOM, let me tell you 08:18:17 (sqrt 666) 08:19:58 DOOM only has one loop? 08:20:08 That sounds like it would be very impressive 08:20:38 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:40 -!- Pavitra [n=pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:11 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:19 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:22:37 -!- ASau``` is now known as ASau 08:26:34 kiuma pasted "what does it mean (let ((,db-var ,db-var)) ...) ?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90888 08:27:17 kiuma: so it's shadowed and the original binding don't get modified 08:28:02 stassats`, but what about gensys ? 08:28:30 what's gensys? 08:28:44 gruseom [n=daniel@h-64-105-143-250.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:10 stassats`, my rusty with macro 08:29:23 :) 08:29:49 you've meant gensym? 08:30:39 <_3b> the caller provides the name, so no gensym needed 08:30:56 <_3b> it binds it twice so it won't leak if BODY modifies teh binding 08:32:20 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:32:30 stassats`, (let ((db-var (gensym))) 08:32:34 <_3b> though i suppose it would be safest to use a fgensym for the outer binding, since if the var is special, there is a period where other threads could modify it and leak the value 08:33:06 What is this fgensym? 08:33:13 <_3b> a typo 08:33:19 <_3b> s/fgensym/gensym/ 08:33:20 OH 08:33:54 _3b, sould I tell it to clsql author ? 08:35:46 <_3b> actually, i guess specials are probably thread local once bound anyway, so probably not a problem 08:36:07 anyway in that macro I could write (with-database (clsql:*default-database* connection-list) ...) modifying the global variable only in my closure, right ? 08:36:50 <_3b> kiuma: i'd say don't worry about it unless someone more awake than i am thinks it is a problem :) 08:37:14 ok 08:38:50 and is it correct the assumption I've done for usage ? 08:42:03 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:42:15 heya fuss 08:42:23 *fusss 08:43:37 anyway to send thread output to the slime repl? *standard-output* is bound to an object of type swank-backend::slime-output-stream. but there is no accessor to get it 08:43:42 hey kiuma 08:44:23 *fusss* just getting acquinted with a new IRC client, trying to give up firefox + chatzilla and their associated 800MBs of bloat 08:45:03 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:16 fwiw, I have tried to send output to *debug-io* and *terminal-io* 08:45:36 fusss: use emacs and ERC, it's just eight megabytes 08:45:49 (and constant swapping) 08:46:04 stassats`: pidgin is OK; I already have it running 08:46:46 tough, this days it's more like eighty megabytes 08:48:09 brb 08:49:41 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.124] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:00 ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-144.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:20 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.84.137] has left #lisp 08:50:36 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.124] has joined #lisp 08:50:37 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-76-93.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:57:32 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:52 fusss, is a hunchentoot problem ? 08:58:44 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:04:26 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:59 -!- redblue [i=star@207.253.108.38] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:09:47 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 09:15:04 -!- qsun [n=qsun@67.223.233.193] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:15:06 qsun [n=qsun@67.223.233.193] has joined #lisp 09:17:10 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:18:48 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:02 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:23:43 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7571ae.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:58 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-144.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:05 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:25:08 ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-144.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:58 -!- Guest90690 is now known as pragma_ 09:32:47 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 09:33:10 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.29.23] has joined #lisp 09:33:16 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Success] 09:33:42 <_deepfire> fusss, I find finch indispensable: it's a console counterpart to pidgin (uses the same libraries, roughly follows UI-wise, etc) -- you can run it inside a screen session 09:34:24 I'd never use pidgin or something pidgin-like for IRC, though 09:34:56 <_deepfire> Ralith, I agree, I use ircII myself. Probably should go for ERC, though. 09:35:03 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Success] 09:35:25 *Ralith* likes irssi 09:35:29 ERC is too much of a hack 09:36:04 "look what we can do in emacs" is not a good basis for program choice, imo 09:37:06 I make life decisions based on coolness factor 09:37:19 -!- pragma_ is now known as _pragma 09:39:18 Ralith: emacs is not a good basis to reject it as well 09:39:44 stassats`: yeah, but ERC's numerous annoyances are :P 09:39:57 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-44-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 09:40:01 it's elisp, you know 09:40:07 I do know 09:40:14 emacs extensions tend to be 09:41:57 so all annoyances can go away on a whim 09:43:56 <_3b> if i have 2 lisps+repls open in slime, how do i tell it which to use for C-c C-k in a lisp buffer? 09:44:19 _3b: M-x slime-list-connections 09:44:25 d on the desired connection 09:44:32 _3b: the current one is displayed in the modeline 09:45:00 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169759.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:04 <_3b> tcr: not much of it, in an 80 column frame :p 09:45:08 also bound to C-c C-x c 09:45:29 <_3b> cool, thanks 09:45:45 and also M-x slime-cycle-connections 09:46:27 _3b: That information is displayed <80 columns here 09:46:56 <_3b> tcr: in a file in git, with paredit on, with a moderately long package name? 09:47:09 <_3b> (and that is after switching the paredit indicator to () ) 09:47:18 it's probably git 09:48:22 <_3b> also line/column #s, don't remember if those are on by default either 09:48:53 stassats`: might as well observe that my kernel is written in C :P 09:49:30 Ralith: that's a wrong observation, elisp and emacs are particularly suited for quick modifications 09:49:45 <_3b> stassats`: if you know emacs and elisp :p 09:50:41 _3b: that's a minor problem 09:51:27 <_3b> stassats`: depends on the annoyance you are trying to fix 09:51:30 _3b: and ERC. 09:51:52 it would probably take me less time to write a more amenable client in CL. 09:51:56 (which I may yet do.) 09:52:18 <_3b> yeah, that is probably what i would have to do to get one i liked at this point 09:53:34 i actually learned elisp while trying to modify programs to my liking 09:54:35 <_3b> yeah, i would do that if i could justify that much time on getting an irc client running :) 09:54:38 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:56:02 Patzy [n=somethin@88.174.11.170] has joined #lisp 09:56:35 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-76-93.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:57:13 notme [n=notme@p5DDD2BEF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:47 <_3b> ah, guess it doesn't switch connections while a command is running, that's no fun :p 09:59:27 -!- notme [n=notme@p5DDD2BEF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:59:41 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:00:27 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179142029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:01:46 rdd` [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:02:00 -!- _pragma is now known as pragma_ 10:04:00 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-88-232.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:04:38 beirc? 10:05:10 cl-irc based 10:05:13 and cl-irc is a bit meh 10:05:16 Ok. 10:05:44 I have been thinking of writing something. I've only ever used one good IRC client, but I can't be bothered to start emacs up all the time so maybe something like riece but in CL 10:06:08 What is the problem with cl-irc? 10:09:43 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:09:45 -!- _8david [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:11:35 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:12:12 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:12:21 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [No route to host] 10:12:38 minion: memo for hefner: Try CVS HEAD; Slime should be considerably less sluggish. 10:12:38 Remembered. I'll tell hefner when he/she/it next speaks. 10:12:52 fuss1 [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:13:06 minion: memo for nikodemus: Try CVS HEAD; scrolling through package-data-list should be tolerable again. 10:13:06 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 10:14:26 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:14:44 amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:15:13 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 10:15:56 -!- amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Client Quit] 10:16:10 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:16:30 Modius [n=Modius@70.123.130.159] has joined #lisp 10:18:47 snearch [n=olaf@e179142029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:17 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:24 Ralith: there are 3-4 other clients for emacs too, although i agree with stassats` 10:23:42 -!- rahul [rjain@clozure-6C5C827B.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 10:25:06 sg2002 [n=kvirc@d24-150-222-71.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:47 *_3b* might argue that '3-4 other clients' is a sign of ERC not being as easily modified as suggested :) 10:26:24 well it depends on what you want to do i guess, but i've made extensive modifications to erc 10:26:25 ^^ 10:26:52 schme: it's ungainly, hardcodes things which aren't consistent, forces a certain design on you, etc. 10:33:17 I see 10:33:38 Ralith: I don't know shit about IRC really. I wrote a bot sometime ago. That's about it. Seemed too much protocol to learn :D 10:34:36 pjb [n=t@59.Red-88-30-121.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:27 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:19 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:44:17 Sukoshi`` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 10:45:48 schme: the protocol is very simple 10:47:18 I guess 10:47:39 irssi has the "good enough" status for me. So not gonna bother looking at it :D 10:47:46 is like linux (: 10:50:21 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:50:52 -!- GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:02:53 milanj [n=milan@79.101.76.26] has joined #lisp 11:04:01 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-63-81.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 11:05:41 -!- esden [n=esdentem@repl.esden.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:05:46 esden [n=esdentem@repl.esden.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:04 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:06:09 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 11:16:20 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-25-181-19.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:16:34 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:37 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:45 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:19:32 aack [n=user@83.161.214.179] has joined #lisp 11:20:56 -!- fuss1 [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:25:29 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 11:25:37 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:38 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:51 -!- drewc` [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:47 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.197.189] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:32:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:32:48 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.124] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:50 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:42:20 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169759.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:48:43 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.218.241] has joined #lisp 11:53:29 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:55:45 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:56:58 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-67-188-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:57:25 Paraselene__ [n=None@79-67-188-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 11:57:44 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179142029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:06:13 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:07:33 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:08:25 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:07 trebor_home [n=user@84.58.210.197] has joined #lisp 12:11:52 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:16 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-27-140.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:21:52 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-80-10.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:24:24 francogrex [n=user@91.180.93.85] has joined #lisp 12:24:48 I'm reading chapter 23 of paip and tears are running down my cheeks. 12:24:52 schme: that's what's got me inactive for now. 12:24:59 that, and lots of other stuff to do. 12:25:02 francogrex: that good or that bad? 12:25:21 I'm bad because I understand nothing! 12:26:07 although I get nothing, I have a question about ch23 (if anyone reached there): 12:26:19 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 12:26:48 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:07 *Ralith* should work through PAIP someday 12:28:27 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-25-181-19.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:29:03 Ralith: paip makes me feel very inferior and useless; better not read it 12:29:26 splittist [n=David@156-220.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:29:28 morning 12:29:55 what is paip? 12:29:57 hi 12:30:00 minion: paip 12:30:01 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 12:30:32 everything brilliant enough will make you feel inferior. and brilliant enough things are probably worth your while 12:30:32 danke 12:31:27 so in ch23 compiling lisp, of which i understand he writes a compiler that generates some stack machine code 12:32:21 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A14B2.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:32:45 benny [n=benny@i577A79C3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:27 then he says to execute the code there are 4 options: 1) hardware, 2) macro-assembler, 3) microcode and 4) software 12:33:53 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:35:19 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:35:22 TR2N [n=email@89-180-145-184.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 12:36:06 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:30 -!- BrianRice [n=water@76.115.44.87] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:34 hardware is like scheme-81 chips, macro-asm is stack to asm of each machine, microtube: god knows wat it is and software is so-called "bytecode" 12:36:57 microtube? 12:37:00 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:37:03 question: where do current compilers of lisp implementations stand? 12:37:17 sorry: it was microcode 12:37:20 microcode is programming the CPU. 12:37:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcode 12:37:29 <_3b> francogrex: most generate hardware instructions directly instead of some abstract asm 12:37:46 <_3b> some use bytecode (clisp, abcl, etc) 12:38:00 _3b: so like the scheme-81 Chips? 12:38:17 <_3b> francogrex: sort of, but the other way around 12:38:32 <_3b> francogrex: instead of making hardware to run your code, make code for existing hardware 12:38:37 sbcl and ccl generate code through assembly code 12:38:45 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:51 voidpointe_ [i=Void@200-100-182-2.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 12:39:15 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:48 hmm stassats:... so then it's option 2 and not option 1? is that not contrary to what _3b saying? 12:39:52 francogrex: What is the problem with ch23? 12:39:58 oh there was more 12:39:59 ehehe 12:40:05 voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #lisp 12:40:06 <_3b> francogrex: those 4 options assume you generated code that can't be executed directly by any existing hardware 12:40:08 francogrex: no, it outputs machine code, but uses assembly internally 12:40:16 I see 12:40:21 <_3b> francogrex: so there is a 5th option, which doesn't assume that 12:40:58 <_3b> (though arguably, you could say they are using something like option 2, if you move back a step and look at some IR in the compiler) 12:40:59 _3b: ok the book was old, maybe 5th option was not yet possible then 12:41:11 sure it was 12:41:27 it was since 1960s 12:41:36 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-16097.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:47 Perhaps it was not a very fast route to take back in the days. 12:41:55 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.76.26] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:41:56 ok so paip is shit, that explains why I don't get one word 12:42:04 no, it's not shit 12:42:09 (: 12:42:10 <_3b> francogrex: actually, i guess calling it the macro-assembler option would be equally accurate, so ignore my '5th option' :) 12:42:12 now I feel better about myself 12:42:24 francogrex: don't 12:42:25 damn :( 12:42:27 <_3b> francogrex: you are still not understanding the topic 12:42:48 francogrex: You have worked your way up to chap23. That is more than most people. Good work. 12:42:51 ok 12:42:52 <_3b> (partially our fault probably though :) 12:43:00 _3b: mostly YOUR fault :) 12:43:07 -!- voidpointe_ [i=Void@200-100-182-2.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 12:43:08 ehehe 12:43:08 <_3b> yeah, probably 12:43:10 sorry :( 12:43:17 francogrex: You might like lisp in small pieces :) 12:45:02 <_3b> francogrex: ignore what i said to start with, and call sbcl (and probably ccl) option 2 12:45:05 francogrex: Given that you have something that produces bytecode, how do you run the bytecode? 1. Build a chip to run it directly. 2. write some macros in an existing assembler to transform the bytecode to machine code. 3. write some microcode for an existing CPU to interpret the bytecodes on the chip. 4. write a software system to run the bytecodes. 12:45:21 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:46:16 <_3b> francogrex: is it more clear that way? 12:46:26 listen to the old _3b, not the new one (: sbcl/ccl/cmucl don't produce bytecode in the first place. They produce machine code instructions directly. 12:46:52 <_3b> splittist: VOPs sounds like an 'abstract machine' to me 12:47:12 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:48:02 BrianRice [n=water@76.115.44.87] has joined #lisp 12:48:07 <_3b> splittist: in the book, it includes generating machine code directly in that category, not just sending asm to an external assembler 12:48:08 _3b: you have a point 12:48:35 francogrex: ignore the old splittist, not the new one that is telling you to ignore the old one... (: 12:48:55 <_3b> francogrex: see, it is easy to get confused over terminology like this :) 12:50:08 minion: memo for pjb: hey, do you mind seeing invoice.lisp released as cl-money? 12:50:08 Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks. 12:51:50 francogrex: but it covers such cool topics! 12:52:09 ANN: ClozureOfficial: http://www.clozureofficial.com/ 12:52:23 :-D 12:53:07 Those guys are so multitalented! 12:53:38 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:56:31 who of them is Gary Byers? 12:56:50 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:56 Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has joined #lisp 13:02:36 ok 13:03:41 i have a copy of lisp in small pieces, but somehow paip seemed more glamorous 13:03:56 danlei [n=user@82.113.121.86] has joined #lisp 13:03:57 they are different in scope 13:04:31 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:04:47 and also, one book at a time, if i start reading LISP and also don't get it, then you'll lose me to the java and c++ people 13:05:00 not that my loss is so important 13:05:34 if you've read 23 chapters of paip, then you're not lost already 13:06:18 stassats: I'm going to give it another try: thing is Norvig doesn't write dydactically also 13:09:03 the examples are not exmaples explained, but he just lays out his code, doesn't explain step by step why he's using this here and that there... reader is supposed to get it by trying 13:09:17 that makes it difficult for someone like me 13:09:56 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:23 "lol programming is hard" 13:15:26 -!- TR2N [n=email@89-180-145-184.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:15:46 LiamH [n=nobody@72.75.73.155] has joined #lisp 13:19:06 Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.211.75] has joined #lisp 13:21:36 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.180.93.85] has left #lisp 13:21:54 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:21:59 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:30:57 TR2N [i=email@89-180-159-21.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 13:31:06 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:28 beach: hi. how hard is it to design a bitmap pixely ttf font? what program do you recommend? 13:32:31 fusss: that is awesome 13:32:47 dto: i don't know what beach would use, but i think i would start with fontforge. 13:32:57 yeah i'm installing it now 13:33:03 i need a better font for xong's in-game text 13:34:11 oooo this looks hardcore :) 13:34:22 dto: hmm, i'd be tempted to look at the license for various free bitmap-style fonts 13:34:40 dto: making my own font is up there with lists of things that seem way to hard to try unless it's an emergency 13:34:58 i used to do it on graph paper :) 13:35:02 maybe i'll try at some point. 13:35:19 i need something commercially redistributable for my game, that's better than the built-in X11 fonts LISPBUIDLER-SDL provides. 13:35:33 pr [n=pr@p579CAA57.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:38 Why not plug freetype into SDL 13:35:59 thats fine i just need a font 13:36:31 Why not just plug freetype into SDL 13:36:42 what's freetype? 13:37:01 Renders any truetype font you like 13:37:09 (With caveats) 13:37:16 i know how to get ttf fonts into SDL. i just need a font. 13:37:34 Oh, then go around and look for one 13:40:35 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93.81.159.45] has joined #lisp 13:40:47 oh, i can just design my own pixel font by creating a png image in gimp with all the letters and loading it into lispbuilder. cool! 13:41:07 i want to design a 7x14 pixel font 13:41:07 That's a Very Bad Idea. 13:41:24 Eine sehr schlecht Idee. 13:41:41 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 13:42:14 schlechte? 13:42:23 dto: sounds like an idea totally in keeping with the Xong aesthetic 13:42:47 Oh, ja 13:42:47 folks, it's happening :) 13:43:04 What is? 13:43:24  13:43:28 hi schme. i'm making a bittmap pixely gamey font in gimp. 13:43:35 for xog. 13:43:37 xog. 13:44:00 dto: xong? 13:44:11 dto: or is xog another thing 13:44:46 dto: ok... 13:44:46 I hate it when no one understands my jokes 13:46:01 Jafet: What joke? 13:46:13 See. 13:46:54 There is a german FPS which does exactly what dto said for its text rendering. Everyone speaks english in it, because it can't do umlauts. 13:47:02 dto1 [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:18 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:47:40 It's also not particularly readable 13:48:07 dto could make sure his ONLY does umlauts - at least for the xtreme metal Xong edition 13:48:09 i missed that 13:48:21 what's Not readable? 13:48:45 dto, hardcoded pixel fonts often aren't 13:48:54 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 13:48:56 And it's annoying when they should 13:48:59 german engineering, eh? 13:49:16 maybe i could just do a good job. 13:49:29 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:49:34 And don't get me started on dwarf fortress 2. Their entire fake terminal is a horrible mess. 13:50:02 dto, for the entire BMP? Good luck 13:50:42 http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/UsingLispbuilderSDL#Font_Initialization 13:50:44 dto: don't get back until you draw all unicode glyphs, or you'll get Jafet angry 13:50:46 look at the pic below that 13:51:10 I tried that dwarf fortress game. Was a bit boring 13:51:13 of the small pixel font 13:51:46 dto, oh lord 13:51:49 dto: I see no pic there? 13:52:13 i'm sorry, http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/UsingLispbuilderSDL#Bitmapped_Fonts 13:52:23 Ehw_ [n=chatzill@103-113-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:46 i'm not saying it's a good font. i'm saying i want to design one. 13:53:02 well, it's certainly readable 13:53:28 the convenience factor of just being able to use the gimp is a huge selling point here. 13:53:31 4x5 probably isn't enough entropy for latin-1, heh 13:54:34 yeah 13:55:03 dto, I'm saying it's far too much work to want to do as a side quest 13:55:09 Er, side project 13:55:18 Mr Braille called 13:55:29 i think it would take a day or less and then all us #lispgames people can use it in our projects 13:55:56 he says that clearly he has improved on the second law of thermodynamics 13:56:34 Tell him he's blind to the modern consensus on physics 13:56:57 leo2007 [n=leo@86.26.14.183] has joined #lisp 13:58:44 dto, go ahead and try then 13:59:18 dto: check out dafont.com 13:59:27 they have plenty of public domain/royalty free 14:00:01 dreish [n=dreish@207.138.47.173] has joined #lisp 14:08:31 schoppen2auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:16:26 Lycurgus [n=Ren@72.228.150.44] has joined #lisp 14:18:10 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:27 RenJuan [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:35 -!- RenJuan [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 14:18:55 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 14:22:43 karme [n=user@188.40.75.179] has joined #lisp 14:24:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 14:27:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:28:06 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:28 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:33:44 -!- schoppen2auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:33:45 ejs [n=eugen@31-8-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:25 snearch [n=olaf@e179142029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:40 guaqua_ [i=gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:55 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:35:57 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 14:36:16 -!- guaqua_ is now known as guaqua 14:37:19 prxq [n=mommer@nick.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:40:28 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 14:42:08 rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:06 davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:25 Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has joined #lisp 14:50:25 ramus`_ [n=ramus@99.23.154.16] has joined #lisp 14:52:12 rindolf [n=shlomi@62.219.139.216] has joined #lisp 14:52:52 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 14:54:12 -!- Ehw_ [n=chatzill@103-113-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:02 dto: I'm one of the #lispgames people. I will not use your font. There are so many ready made good ttf ones for me to pick from. 14:55:19 Marcus Eskilsson: well just be that way. 14:55:23 :P)( 14:55:40 dto: Yeah man. I am that way. 14:55:57 Drakeson [n=user@69-196-172-71.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:59 schme: what kind of game do you want to make 14:56:09 dto: Not suggesting you don't do it. I just don't understand why you'd want to. And a bitmap one of all things. 14:56:15 dto: Right now I'm making a space game. 14:56:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has quit [] 14:57:29 Ehw_ [n=Ehw_@228-126-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:30 schme: what kind? in lisp? 14:57:45 dto: last one was a roguelike with a fantasy touch. with monsters and all. Yes I'm using UID for this space game. 14:57:55 schme: cool. 14:57:58 dto: I'd like to make one with rabbits. So that is the next project. 14:58:09 schme: i'd eventually like to connect UID and RLX so they can be used together 14:58:19 hokay 14:58:25 Seems good. Then there is no need for lispbuilder :) 14:58:41 hmm. i don't know about that. 14:58:50 i like lispbuilder 14:58:54 I see. 14:59:05 I prefer opengl. Not that I know much off it. But hardware accel is nice, yes. 14:59:07 ya i don't get the anti lispbuilder sentiment 14:59:10 but UID may be better long term... opengl 14:59:12 schme: If you're going to make a game with rabbits, you should do it in scheme instead of common lisp. :-P 14:59:18 Guthur: Well it doesn't really work on netbsd, now does it? 14:59:34 schme i didn't know that 14:59:36 nyef: Hmm.. I'm not very well versed in scheme. Or scheme culture. Is rabbits some scheme joke? 14:59:40 Guthur: Now you do :) 14:59:59 works fine on a lot of other OS's though 15:00:06 three? 15:00:18 well I count four actually. 15:00:20 One of the original scheme compilers, the subject of one of the original lambda-the-ultimate papers, was called "Rabbit". 15:00:29 Cools. 15:00:36 I guess I have to learn me some scheme. 15:00:40 schme well only one is really significant in terms of market share 15:00:58 Guthur: Right. Well maybe not. I dunno. I don't care much about market share. 15:01:09 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.141.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:13 Guthur: I figured for that one would just go with xbox, playstation and windows :) 15:01:32 lemme rephrase that. I don't care one bit about market share. 15:01:54 *schme* hugs mcclim :P 15:01:59 Market share means libraries! 15:02:05 PC is a viable game platform, the other sentiment is just propaganda 15:02:20 oh you said windows 15:02:20 Guthur: What other sentiment? 15:02:21 sorry 15:02:31 i missed windows at the end 15:02:37 It seems to me linux is plenty viable game platform. 15:02:49 the PC gaming is dead sentiment 15:02:50 cl-directx 15:03:08 Guthur: I thought windows was the biggest game platform of all? 15:03:19 *schme* does not keep track of these things. 15:03:47 If I was worried about market penetration I guess I'd do it all in a webbrowser or maybe in F#. 15:03:56 schme: for me being able to release on windows/mac/and linux is crucial because i want the widest pc audience 15:04:04 the indie game world is largely windows-dominated 15:04:05 ya i think so to, vast majority of MMO's are PC, if not all, haven't checked 15:04:12 dto: That's cool. I have no such aims at all. 15:04:32 I couldn't care less about windows and mac. 15:04:49 well if lack of netbsd is the only failing of lispbuilder i think its not a big issue 15:04:57 Be badass, write it for genera 15:05:07 Guthur: It isn't a big issue. 15:05:18 Jafet: I don't have genera running so that is not a very attractive option either :) 15:05:22 <_3b> there are a few console MMOs, ff11 for one 15:05:45 _3b forgot about that 15:06:14 <_3b> not enough lisp MMOs though :p 15:06:22 Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-204-114.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:23 *schme* is in the happy position of not trying to make money off of software, or building a nice resume. I can just do whatever and not care. It's great fun. 15:06:27 schme your game is obvious just a personal project, which is fine 15:06:39 Guthur: Of course. All my projects are. 15:07:17 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [No route to host] 15:07:39 _3b lisp MMO, need a lisp engine first 15:07:53 oh RLX i suppose 15:08:01 make a MUD 15:08:10 dto you got network support 15:08:15 or any plans 15:08:25 not at the moment, but it's a natural growth area 15:08:35 indeed 15:08:35 schme: not really for games but probably you would like fluxus 15:08:54 karme: I looked at fluxus just some weeks ago. It seems quite nice. Not had any time to play with it though. 15:08:59 and it has jack integration \o/ 15:09:21 wha'ts fluxus. 15:09:46 yaourt fluxus-git enjoy :) 15:10:02 dto: http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/ 15:10:11 very cool repl :) 15:10:37 *karme* notices that the description now includes games 15:10:52 dto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O5DJTOy6EA 15:10:53 gz [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:55 ok, we need to morph UID/squirl/rlx into that type of system. Processing, Fluxus, .... we need a CL one that composes all our #lispgames stuff 15:11:22 Why? 15:11:29 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:44 Meh, linux platform still has fifty different audio frameworks trying to work around each other 15:11:49 cool vid. 15:11:57 dto: live fluxus, yes 15:12:18 Jafet: Ya. it would be better if everyone settled on jack 15:12:40 jack doesn't ever start properly for me... 15:12:46 Too bad. 15:12:48 Jafet: what happens? 15:13:00 dto heterogeneous game platforms has benefits, options 15:13:01 Jafet: do you have /etc/security/limits.conf set up? 15:13:17 Guthur: what is that in response to? 15:13:21 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@62.219.139.216] has left #lisp 15:13:22 Guthur: i lost context 15:13:30 the morphing of UID RLX and squirl into one 15:13:36 Apparently my alsa configuration is totally borked 15:13:50 not sure how squirl and RLX would go together actually 15:14:01 Guthur: i'm not saying they become one, i'm saying we have a unified family of tools. 15:14:08 ah ok 15:14:12 i could get into a transparent repl like that :) 15:14:27 i have a repl and text editor widgets now, but it's not transparent. 15:14:29 :) 15:14:30 i thought that was what lispbuilder was suppose to be 15:14:33 dto: fluxus seemed pretty much aimed at live coding. So it's all about nice repl. 15:14:52 Guthur: not much of a game engine in lispbuilder though? 15:14:56 Guthur: i mean a 2nd level up from lispbuilder, with tools that some use lispbuilder, some use uid/opengl, etc 15:15:08 Guthur: exactly... engines, tools 15:15:09 nah schme, RLX is the only game engine 15:15:14 Right. 15:15:22 no, there are other lisp game engines, see luke's community page 15:15:38 http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/Community 15:15:44 not sure how active/progressed tho 15:15:46 i am hacking on something similar, though using gauche scheme, in fact it is a limited terminal "emulator" in which emacs is started up with a repl connecting back to the terminal (using opengl) 15:15:55 cool :) 15:15:57 to McCLIM wizards: in my app I write a few pages of text and some representations (links) into an application pane - while writing stuff to stream, the application pane is updated inbetween, so it looks like the output is being 'printed' out - is there a macro I could use, to write all my stuff into the stream and when I'm finished, display it (so it wouldn't update visually while I'm writing pieces to stream) ? 15:15:57 (: 15:16:00 karme: what are you plans for it 15:16:09 dto: it is just for fun 15:16:18 karme: That's the spirit. 15:16:20 dto: and the code is just to ugly for release 15:16:41 *karme* likes gauche c-wrapper 15:16:42 karme: I found Linus' idea of "just for fun" very inspirational. Best reason to do things. 15:16:57 i have a free copy of that book somewhere 15:17:12 I just listened to the audiobook 15:17:17 schme doesn't mean work in a box though 15:17:20 NNshag [i=user@82.253.5.201] has joined #lisp 15:17:27 Guthur: Work in a box? wha? 15:17:32 i'd like to work in the games industry again, so i'm trying to put as much polish on this project as i can 15:17:37 come on schme 15:17:43 maybe interesting for someone: http://egachine.berlios.de/sgachine/ 15:17:48 What means "work in a box"? 15:17:53 linus' creations still have public exposure even if they are in a box 15:17:53 think outside the swedish box of cookies 15:17:57 box/for fun 15:18:08 you said you only create for yourself 15:18:12 uh 15:18:21 ziga`: The first thing I might try is with-output-bufferred. 15:18:26 Guthur: I said I make my projects for myself. They're freely available for anyone 15:18:35 I'd even put them in public domain if that was possible. 15:18:47 now it seems it is time to feed :) 15:18:48 tata 15:19:00 bye :) 15:19:27 nyef: thanks, I'll try that 15:20:35 old (somewhat broken) screencast (without the terminal emulation part): http://karme.de/delme/out.ogv 15:21:37 wow cool 15:21:51 rpg_ [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:53 that's it i need to dust off my editor widget / repl code for RLX :) 15:21:56 i think there a quite a lot of people working in a similar direction - whats the lisp thingy you are talking about? 15:21:58 so i can do rlx livecoding 15:22:09 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.185] has joined #lisp 15:22:16 karme: can you be more specific? 15:22:21 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:22:23 dto: rlx? 15:23:05 karme: RLX is my CL game engine. currently it supports 2.5D "roguelike-ish" worlds 15:23:09 karme: i'm adding more stuff over time though 15:23:15 nyef: excuse my lame question - what should I pass as the 'medium' - it doesn't like application-pane instance? 15:23:16 karme: it's used to make XONG 15:23:42 dto: http://dto.github.com/notebook/rlx.html ? 15:24:02 tha'ts a really old page 15:24:17 dto: newer one? 15:24:19 i would see http://dto.github.com/notebook/developers-guide.html or http://github.com/dto/rlx 15:24:33 i just haven't updated the RLX page itself in a long time. should do that now. 15:24:37 dto: thanks 15:25:04 karme: i see #lispgames as a way to get everyone's heads together , and share projects/ideas 15:25:31 *fusss* is supposed to be writing a lisp game for work in a few weeks (not kidding!) 15:25:41 fusss: what kind? how? 15:25:56 I just did the prelimiary research today and tested lispbuilder-sdl with clozure just to be sure 15:26:15 dto: a weird karaoke game for the entertainment industry 15:26:37 i have kara.lisp in another buffer, parsing .kar file formats 15:26:42 hmm. 15:27:55 fusss sounds great, will it be publicly available in some way? 15:27:59 all the midi-based file formats include lyrics and track; i am contracting with a company that wants video and commentary as well 15:28:13 Guthur: it will be sold in Singapore at least 15:28:55 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:29:29 -!- Ehw_ [n=Ehw_@228-126-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.17/0000000000]"] 15:30:24 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:30:27 -!- Nshag [i=user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-204-114.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:22 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:32:31 anyone else getting irritating CTCP VERSION messages from the creep "freenode-connect"? 15:32:51 milanj [n=milan@79.101.76.26] has joined #lisp 15:33:01 fusss: I thought that was normal freenodeism? 15:33:33 i used chatzilla until today and i haven't seen it. just switched to pigin so i am seeing more raw stuff than normal. 15:33:41 probably false alarm, nyef 15:36:57 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:47:42 -!- rpg_ [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:48:59 timetrap [n=jkern@108.2.110.22] has joined #lisp 15:49:14 super newb question. 15:49:32 What's the diff between sbcl and clisp? 15:49:45 timetrap: different implementation strategies, development histories 15:49:53 I am super confused about all the different dialects and their differences. 15:50:06 clisp and sbcl both implement the standardized language common lisp 15:50:19 -!- ejs [n=eugen@31-8-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:50:19 Okay, the ANSI standard right? 15:50:29 yes. 15:50:36 does that mean they run the same code? 15:50:42 (in lisp) 15:50:46 beauty [n=beauty@62.32.133.149] has joined #lisp 15:50:55 evening 15:50:56 timetrap: code that uses standardized functionality will probably work on either one in the same way 15:51:04 okay. 15:51:15 timetrap: i have a handful of libraries that are written in common lisp that do useful stuff that work the same on clisp and sbcl. 15:51:16 xach hehe like the 'probably' 15:51:17 Now, I know that "which is better" is not a good question. 15:51:25 timetrap: correct 15:51:31 but. 15:51:41 I have no idea what I'm doing yet. 15:51:55 I prefer sbcl because it compiles to native code and it's very stable and well-supported on x86 and x86-64. it integrates well with slime. 15:52:01 I found the book "practical common lisp" 15:52:21 sometimes i use clisp because it can be built pretty easily in environments that don't have CL compilers handy. 15:52:30 and would like something that has acess to a few libraries etc. 15:52:46 I noticed that sbcl has asdf ... 15:52:51 timetrap: clisp and sbcl will be about the same in that regard 15:52:57 hmmm. 15:53:12 http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ has some really good stuff. i recommend it. 15:53:17 Is common lisp, that common? 15:53:45 Great link! 15:53:55 I'm off to RTFM. 15:53:58 RTFA. 15:54:19 (defun increase-knowledge google) 15:55:15 -!- timetrap [n=jkern@108.2.110.22] has quit ["leaving"] 15:56:09 oops, i meant "stable and well-supported on linux x86 and x86-64" 15:56:17 *Xach* uses linux and emacs and sbcl for CL work 15:57:28 ejs [n=eugen@31-8-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:05 -!- karme [n=user@188.40.75.179] has quit ["testing slime"] 15:59:32 karme [n=user@kallisto.karme.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:12 if google IS nil, then (defun increase-knowledge google) might just work... 16:07:01 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:47 -!- davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:17:11 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:20:54 -!- guaqua [i=gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:23:56 guaqua [i=gua@82.128.221.166] has joined #lisp 16:34:59 Xach: I agree, XONG is a nice example of delivering a lisp application. do the lispbuilder-sdl folks hang out here? 16:38:23 slyrus: balooga drops in here and #lispgames every now and then. 16:38:34 thanks sykopomp 16:39:24 iirc, it was sabetts that helped dto get a proper image-dumping setup for rlx, but you should ask dto about that. 16:40:21 timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:47:10 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-44-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:21 legumbre_ [n=leo@190.135.44.207] has joined #lisp 16:47:29 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 16:50:38 Dodek_ [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has joined #lisp 16:50:47 slyrus: #lispgames > #lisp 16:50:49 (: 16:50:51 thijso pasted "simple FFI gives unhandled memory error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90900 16:51:49 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:11 thijso annotated #90900 "the c wrapper" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90900#1 16:52:48 anyone able to shed some light on that paste? 16:53:50 I get: Unhandled memory fault at #x0. from SBCL when I try to call (document_load *testfile*) (and *testfile* is a foreign-string-alloc with the path and filename) 16:54:08 am I missing something obvious? 16:54:17 slyrus: hi 16:54:20 slyrus: what's up 16:54:42 -!- prxq [n=mommer@nick.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:55:25 thijso: Well, the first thing is that the error is from attempting to dereference a NULL pointer. 16:56:16 nyef: yeah, thought so... 16:56:28 but I can't see where 16:56:47 What's your minimum failing test-case? 16:56:55 slyrus: indeed shawn betts helped me get the app delivered on win/mac. we are trying to build a knowledge base so that people can replicate this 16:57:04 hey dto 16:57:49 does lispbuilder work on darwin/x86-64/sbcl? 16:58:21 nyef: what I pastied, and then I just do in the REPL: (defparameter *test* (foreign-string-alloc "/home/thijs/.NoGit/code/cl-poppler-ffi/test.pdf")) and then (document_load *testfile*) 16:58:34 -!- lazz0 [n=blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:58:36 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-252-74.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:39 slyrus: check their page, there's a compatibility matrix 16:58:58 uhm, and then with *test* in both cases of course... 16:59:48 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:59:50 slyrus: you could try building the game from scratch and see if it works. instructions are at http://github.com/dto/rlx/blob/master/INSTALL 16:59:59 And foreign-string-alloc returns a pointer to something that can be used as a QString? 17:00:14 dto: that's what I was doing. I don't get past building attempting to load cocoahelper on x86-64... 17:00:34 i would want to put you in touch with shawn betts. 17:00:44 slyrus: you need to use sdl 1.2.14 17:00:44 ok, thanks 17:00:44 slyrus: start auto-joining #lispgames, and look for sabetts 17:00:49 rdad [n=rdad@cpe-24-193-123-112.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:57 1.2.13 does not work 64bit 17:01:04 since they use carbon 17:01:11 slyrus: and Balooga <----- luke crook, lispbuilder sdl dev guy 17:01:13 nyef: hhmmm... it returns a standard string point... not sure if QString is same... 17:01:22 thanks xristos and dto 17:01:31 I'm guessing not, now that I think about it 17:01:33 slyrus: let me know if you get the game running. i'll be around. 17:01:59 I should confess that my intentions aren't really building games, but the game-like gfx infrastructure might be kinda nice for 3-d structure visualization... 17:02:24 slyrus: same here 17:02:35 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:03:42 Can someone tell me the lisp equivalent to this scheme function (define (foo a b) ((if (> b 0) + -) a b)) ? 17:03:56 CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-1596e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:04:13 I'm trying to learn functional programming from a scheme book but I'd like to do the examples in lisp 17:04:26 rdad: (defun foo (a b) (funcall (if (> b 0) #'+ #'-) a b)) might do the trick. 17:04:36 Ok, thanks 17:04:43 hi guys I am just looking into whether I should learn Common Lisp as a language and was wondering if you have libraries for say parsing XML documents, or web services etc similar to what Java provides? 17:04:58 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:04:59 or is this something that can easily be written yourself? 17:05:17 there are plenty of libraries 17:05:27 i'd start by checking out weitz.de, cliki.net && cl-user.net 17:05:48 CBro2007: there are many web util related libraries 17:05:53 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179142029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:54 CBro2007: CXML is a nice XML library 17:05:59 k 17:06:19 coz I hear Common Lisp is da bomb! :) 17:06:26 CBro2007: there are fewer frameworks and things like that where you are given a skeleton and you fill in some missing pieces to get what you want. 17:06:31 just want to dabble with it in my spare time to get a feel for it 17:06:45 yeah I am not a fan of FWs anyway 17:06:58 FWs are like learning a whole bunch of shit again 17:06:59 :) 17:07:08 also theres much lesser documentation for the libraries :) 17:07:21 for Common Lisp? 17:07:34 but whatever documentation there is... is it any good? 17:07:42 or are you left begging for more? 17:07:52 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCEAC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:55 learn the language first 17:08:48 yeah thanks xristos 17:09:04 but it helps to have good web resources and tutorials too 17:09:15 is there like a good book I can get for Common Lisp? 17:09:25 also what editors etc do you suggest for Mac Osx? 17:09:25 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-27-140.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:35 someone needs to paste the obligatory pcl link 17:09:37 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is great. 17:09:38 just guide me on how I can get started 17:09:47 CBro2007: : I'm reading Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 17:09:48 Emacs is a great editor for CL on any platform. 17:09:48 Ah cool 17:09:57 but it is scheme 17:10:09 or examples are in scheme, rather 17:10:11 is that book an excerpt or the whole thing for free? 17:10:22 the examples in the book are in scheme? 17:10:25 The whole thing plus videos 17:10:32 pcl is a CL book, the whole thing 17:10:33 CBro2007: the whole of Practical Common Lisp is online. there is also a hardcopy you can buy. 17:10:33 ah awesome 17:10:53 sicp is not about lisp per se, more about abstractions & programming in general 17:11:05 certainly not introductory material 17:11:13 I have never used Emacs before 17:11:18 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:26 but you think it makes life easier when you code in Common Lisp? 17:11:34 the http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book is great if youre new to lisp 17:11:43 xristos: SICP is not introductory? 17:11:45 I had done some real basic Scheme in an AI course ages ago... and I remember it was like a lot of bracket matching etc 17:11:47 its recent and very well written and a good introductory text 17:12:03 thanks Dawgmatix others suggested the same book to me 17:12:11 rdad: i don't think it is a good introduction for someone looking to learn common lisp 17:12:14 i was just seconding those wise souls 17:12:20 I see 17:12:31 xristos: so what do you suggest? 17:12:39 If you're doing paren-balancing by hand then you need to get a better editor. 17:12:39 PCL 17:12:40 I mean is that book not for Common Lisp? 17:12:52 start with PCL 17:12:59 PCL is for common lisp 17:12:59 whats PCL? 17:13:08 ah ok 17:13:12 sicp is for scheme. practical common lisp ie the gigamonkeys book 17:13:12 Practical Common Lisp 17:13:27 SICP isn't especially for scheme 17:13:30 and what editor should I use.. Emacs? 17:13:31 it uses Scheme in the examples. 17:13:34 what is SLIME? 17:13:45 and also whats good on a Mac? 17:13:46 I'm redoing all the examples in common lisp 17:13:48 CBro2007: it's an extra challenge to learn emacs while learning Common Lisp, but I think it's worth the trouble. 17:13:51 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-144.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:02 CBro2007: you should use emacs + slime cvs + sbcl on osx 17:14:06 CBro2007: slime is a program for emacs that makes for tight Common Lisp development integration. 17:14:10 rdad - are you already a master of scheme ? 17:14:16 Xach: yeah there a few people at uni who use Xemacs and think its the shit 17:14:23 or you could try clozure cl, http://trac.clozure.com/ccl 17:14:26 dacoda [n=user@clientssh2.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:29 they have their own ide just for osx 17:14:32 *rdad* using slime and emacs + sbcl on mac OS X 17:14:43 *Xach* uses slime + emacs + sbcl on Mac OS X also 17:15:01 sbcl? 17:15:04 Dawgmatix: Nope, I'm just now learning functional programming 17:15:08 what weas that again? 17:15:23 and hows that stack different from clozure? 17:15:25 it is the lisp compiler/environment 17:15:27 rdad - then stick to scheme while reading the book :) 17:15:32 you can learn lisp later 17:15:39 I think I can juggle both really 17:15:42 common lisp is an ansi standard, there are many implementations like sbcl or ccl 17:15:44 (and most of your knowledge will carry forward) 17:15:58 are these implementations very different from each other? 17:16:00 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.29.23] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:02 CBro2007: not a big difference. i deploy all my programs on Linux, and I'm more familiar with SBCL there, so that's what I use. 17:16:04 hehe could you do examples in c++ while reading kernighan and ritchie ? 17:16:10 or can you transfer knowledge from one to the other? 17:16:18 Hmm.. good point 17:16:26 CBro2007: they have some implementation specific things for stuff not in the standard, but they all strive to be ansi compliant 17:16:27 CBro2007: there's a standard that describes Common Lisp, so that helps for a huge chunk of capability. 17:16:30 -!- HET3 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:16:36 but scheme and lisp are not so different, yet.. 17:16:46 ah I see 17:16:49 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:53 its more efficient to learn whats being taught 17:16:57 and then later innovate 17:17:11 If i remember right for scheme you had to have a good understanding of how stacks worked 17:17:13 (ie if the book is in scheme, do things in scheme) 17:17:25 coz you would always keep pushing and popping stuff of it for the brackets 17:17:37 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.29.23] has joined #lisp 17:17:43 if you hate brackets lisp isnt for you :) 17:17:44 like a function within a function within a function etc 17:17:56 I hated doing it manually 17:18:09 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.29.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:21 that is why you use an appropriate editor/environment 17:18:21 I mean if there is a cool editor that does bracket matching and if you lay it out cleanly I don't think it should be that bad 17:18:25 or is it? 17:18:32 yeah true that 17:18:34 after a while the parens are simply not there 17:18:52 I mean some IDE should even auto fill them out for you I would think? 17:18:53 you learn to look at the structure they represent 17:19:04 You know, I keep hearing about the parens disappearing, but I don't think they do. 17:19:04 a good editor will indent things so the structure is fairly obvious. 17:19:14 nyef: it's a sailboat! 17:19:26 Exactly! 17:20:23 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.109.234] has joined #lisp 17:21:25 so you guys think Clozure is better for a beginner or the other stack you guys mentioned? 17:21:37 what would be easier for me to code in and just try examples? 17:21:48 what os are you using? 17:21:48 ccl is easier, download and go 17:22:01 coz it looks like there are a few implementations around 17:22:03 ok 17:22:04 but it doesn't have the power/flexibility of emacs/slime yet 17:22:06 Mac Osx 17:22:12 Hooke [n=Hooke@116.Red-81-37-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:15 so if you are up for it you should learn emacs 17:22:25 yeah I wanna learn emacs 17:22:31 can I do emacs on the mac/ 17:22:31 CBro2007: on osx go with CCL, but still get to learn emacs 17:22:32 ? 17:22:35 yes 17:22:59 I might look into the stack then 17:23:07 coz that way it forces you to understand emacs better 17:23:15 you guys use Xemacs? or GNU Emacs? 17:23:42 xemacs is pretty much dead 17:23:42 I know there is a huge war between those users ... but it helps to know which one is easier to use 17:23:50 aha 17:24:15 gnu emacs has native port to osx 17:24:22 23.x 17:24:30 or you can use the old carbon 22.x versions 17:25:03 guys if its not too much of a big deal can you list me the correct sites I can get the stack from - Slime, Emacs, Sbcl for Mac osx? 17:25:16 just don't want to get the wrong one and waste time installing the wrong thing 17:25:18 why don't you start with ccl and PCL 17:25:18 :) 17:25:24 get a feel for the language 17:25:34 coz you said CCL doesn't need emacs 17:25:48 you can get up and running in minutes though 17:25:50 and everyone seems to agree that emacs is the way to go 17:25:57 ehmm thats fine 17:26:07 I will learn some emacs basics first then 17:26:26 pretty sure if I do more coding in Common lisp it will be a life saver then 17:26:26 is there a lisp faq ? 17:26:51 so can I please get the sites xristos ? if you don't mind helping a newbie out :) 17:27:09 google should help you out 17:27:22 http://emacsformacosx.com/ 17:27:32 for emacs on Macosx... is that good? 17:27:47 i use the old carbon version myself 17:28:03 http://homepage.mac.com/zenitani/emacs-e.html 17:28:05 ok but this should be ok too yeah? 17:28:42 try it then let us know :) 17:28:45 its taking forever to load the page 17:28:50 CBro2007: if you're going to learn emacs, you should hang out on #emacs too. friendly place 17:28:55 ! 17:29:06 k done 17:29:20 yeah thanks dto 17:29:20 will do 17:29:26 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:29:40 I really need a vacation and some time on the comp to myself 17:29:40 :) 17:31:35 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:33:10 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:01 for sbcl on Mac osx I got to use ports? 17:34:37 I need Darwin ports to install this on Mac? 17:34:51 you can download the binary from sbcl.org 17:34:55 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 17:35:04 if you want latest version + threads, get the binary and the source 17:35:16 and compile latest source yourself 17:35:39 Hmm 17:35:48 is that a pain in the arse? :) 17:36:03 not if you're used to it 17:36:14 I will just get the binary 17:37:44 or use clbuild. 17:38:04 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:10 clbuild? 17:38:13 whats that? 17:40:48 pkhuong: does this work on Mac? 17:41:22 CBro2007: yes. 17:41:29 minion: clbuild 17:41:30 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 17:42:02 -!- johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-76-180-175-226.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:42:11 I don't have darcs installed pkhuong 17:42:26 so I tried doing the very first line and it failed 17:42:40 will google darcs hang on 17:45:36 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:46:15 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:25 johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-76-180-175-226.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:25 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 17:47:52 CBro2007: you probably don't want to install darcs via port. GHC takes hours to build (one point for SBCL ;) 17:48:25 -!- johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-76-180-175-226.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:32 so what do you suggest pkhuong ? 17:49:06 whats GHC? 17:49:39 CBro2007: Glasgow|Glorious? Haskell Compiler 17:50:10 install a binary build of darcs from http://wiki.darcs.net/Binaries#intel-os-x . Unless you want/already have GHC. 17:50:30 ok so how do I install SBCL on the mac? 17:50:42 I just installed MacPorts 17:51:03 CBro2007: you can use macports, but clbuild gives you a single place to manage all your cl dependencies. 17:51:14 http://darcs.darwinports.com/ 17:51:24 those are the instructions I was going to follow pkhuong 17:51:38 so you saying that is not needed? 17:51:38 CBro2007: that depends on GHC which literally takes hours to build. 17:51:42 but doesn't clbuild need darcs? 17:52:15 you can get darcs binary 17:52:15 http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ 17:52:19 the link you sent me... the very first line asks me to use darcs 17:52:33 I'd install (locally, in /Users/username) SBCL from the tarball on www.sbcl.org, then install everything I need, including SBCL from clbuild. 17:52:49 thomastim [n=n@116.231.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:53:15 CBro2007: get a precompiled binary 17:53:16 -!- thomastim [n=n@116.231.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:31 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:53:41 ok lets see if I am getting this right... I get the darcs pre compiled binary ? 17:53:58 and then use that to get clbuild? 17:54:18 which will then automatically help me install SBCL? 17:54:18 is that right? 17:54:46 if you go that route you'll need git and svn too 17:54:58 CBro2007: yes. You need also a tarball from www.sbcl.org (for initial compilation of SBCL) 17:55:27 xristos: but those aren't too bad to get via port 17:55:39 p_l: he could also install it from port. 17:55:46 wow so much shit to do :) 17:55:49 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:56:00 so can you lay out the steps pkhuong 17:56:03 CBro2007: easier than dealing with some stuff on win32 17:56:10 1. install binary from darcs.net 17:56:19 let me do that first 17:56:23 CBro2007: you don't have to, but clbuild is a nice utility. You set it up once and then install and updating packages is a simple process. 17:56:31 I am not a win32 person anyway 17:56:44 yeah pkhuong it looks like CPAN for Perl 17:56:53 similar concept 17:57:00 much less comprehensive. 17:57:55 <_3b> easy to tell clbuild about new projects though 17:57:58 so I downloaded the binary.. where do you suggest I place it? 17:58:17 /usr/local/bin 17:58:56 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:59:23 pkhuong: ? 17:59:43 sure. 18:01:07 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:01:58 -!- ejs [n=eugen@31-8-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:04:08 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:21 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:07:35 ok so I installed darcs now 18:07:43 1. Done! :) 18:07:51 2. get clbuild? 18:07:55 is that ok? 18:08:21 http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ 18:08:30 will follow that link to install... is that ok? 18:09:30 yea 18:09:36 -!- stattrav is now known as Ankit_fadia 18:09:50 brita_ [n=stitch@gw-ext.tagus.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 18:09:50 -!- Ankit_fadia is now known as Ankit_fart-ia 18:09:52 k 18:09:56 doing that now 18:10:04 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit ["Backups are usually a good thing unless it's a sewer."] 18:10:08 hey, does 'intersection' works with pairs? 18:10:21 brita_: no, it works with lists. 18:10:32 lists of pairs 18:10:35 :-P 18:11:02 -!- Ankit_fart-ia is now known as stattrav 18:12:49 Warning: CRC errors found. These are probably harmless but should be repaired. 18:12:52 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 18:13:05 and then I don't find clbuild anywhere in my user fir 18:13:05 brita_: As a rule, standard function that rely on equality let you specify the equality predicate. intersection obeys that rule. 18:13:05 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 18:13:06 dir 18:13:39 I just have an _darcs directory under clbuild 18:13:45 does this mean installation failed? 18:15:06 -!- splittist [n=David@156-220.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 18:15:11 ty 18:15:28 ah whats going on here... 18:15:32 this is weird 18:17:51 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93.81.159.45] has quit [] 18:18:09 ejs [n=eugen@31-8-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:57 -!- dacoda [n=user@clientssh2.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:21:16 http://www.pastie.org/710143 18:21:28 this is the error I am getting now when I do a check 18:21:33 can someone help? 18:21:55 -!- timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:15 i can suggest you to read the error 18:22:23 but above that, i really can't do anything 18:22:41 great! 18:23:15 i thought clbuild was the one that downloads and installs sbcl? 18:23:17 To a first approximation, you need a binary release of SBCL and to install wget in order to get started. 18:24:17 hmm maybe I didn't get this right 18:24:34 so now when I get the binary of SBCL and install it locally? 18:24:35 CBro2007: it centralises your installation of SBCL and of libraries. You still need to install the tools needed to get the libraries, and then SBCL to bootstrap the installation of SBCL. 18:24:53 pkhuong: ah there you are :) 18:25:10 pkhuong: so you suggested I download the tarball into my user dir 18:25:15 and then do a clbuild? 18:26:23 -!- sg2002 [n=kvirc@d24-150-222-71.home.cgocable.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 18:26:43 not just download, install it too. After that, you'll have to ask others. I only use clbuild for libraries. 18:27:07 k 18:35:10 -!- CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-1596e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 18:36:56 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:38:18 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has joined #lisp 18:38:58 'morning 18:39:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:41:25 -!- beauty [n=beauty@62.32.133.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:42:21 c|mell [n=cmell@81.214.72.185] has joined #lisp 18:42:21 I thought clbuild would get a binary of sbcl to bootstrap itself 18:42:51 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-27-140.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:43:15 -!- voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit ["futebol"] 18:43:52 Maybe it needs wget in order to do so? 18:44:05 it uses curl instead of wget 18:44:53 -!- rdad [n=rdad@cpe-24-193-123-112.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:47:01 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:47:42 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-159-21.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 18:49:17 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@92.229.173.23] has quit ["humhum"] 18:50:01 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:19 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:52:55 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 18:55:06 minion, what does 7drl stand for? 18:55:07 a man, a plan, a canal - panama 18:55:28 ... seven-dimensional roguelike? 18:55:43 nyef, close, seven-day roguelike 18:55:54 I guess minion can't deal with letters in acronyms 18:56:00 i like seven-dimensional better 18:56:04 ... do you mean "numbers"? 18:56:22 do you mean "digits"? 18:56:37 Yeah! 18:57:03 *Adlai* pacefalm 18:57:17 moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-207-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:24 minion, I'm sorry for my mistake. 18:57:24 you should be sorry 18:57:41 Wow, that was... mean. 18:57:43 7drl is a a piece of lisp software that only takes 7 days to figure out how to install and get up and running. 18:58:05 schme: But it would take a week to rewrite from scratch? 18:58:12 hehehe 18:58:13 exactly 18:58:58 *_3b* wonders why sbcl only objects to (/ 0.0 0.0) sometimes 18:59:26 _3b: float trap mask. 18:59:40 <_3b> pkhuong: right, but who is setting it? 19:00:11 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@81.214.72.185] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:00:11 -!- joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:00:11 _3b: Is that on the same platform? 19:00:20 <_3b> yeah 19:00:23 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 19:00:40 <_3b> linux x8664 19:01:14 jedbrown [n=jed@vawpc43.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 19:01:25 Is there a combinator to turn (func first '(other args) last) into (func first other args last) ? Similar to apply. 19:01:36 ... maybe this is a better place to ask than #emacs 19:02:03 jedbrown: not unless you write it. 19:02:15 _3b: test case? What sort of application is that in? 19:03:24 <_3b> pkhuong: (/ 0.0 0.0) is the test case... 19:03:44 _3b: at the REPL? 19:03:51 <_3b> yeah 19:03:57 <_3b> in a fresh sbcl even 19:04:11 And you only get a condition *sometimes*? 19:04:27 pkhuong: Right, thanks. 19:04:28 -!- Drakeson [n=user@69-196-172-71.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:05:00 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.15.105] has joined #lisp 19:05:52 <_3b> pkhuong: not sure exactly what the behavior is... 19:06:17 <_3b> right now, i have 2 emacs open with a slime in each... 1 returns NaN, other errors 19:06:45 -!- joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:45 <_3b> starting a fresh repl from shell, it errors 19:07:11 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 19:08:40 _3b: (sb-int:get-floating-point-modes) in each instance? 19:09:40 <_3b> :TRAPS (:OVERFLOW :INVALID :DIVIDE-BY-ZERO) in the one that complains, NIL in the other 19:10:12 is :invalid that is doing it for me :) 19:10:36 <_3b> :ROUNDING-MODE :NEAREST :CURRENT-EXCEPTIONS (:INEXACT) :ACCRUED-EXCEPTIONS (:INEXACT) :FAST-MODE NIL) same in both 19:10:37 _3b: at least that still makes sense. Sure you haven't changed the mode, e.g. for interaction with openGL? 19:11:00 <_3b> pkhuong: outside of sbcl somewhere? 19:11:09 no, in SBCL. 19:12:01 <_3b> .sbclrc just does asdf stuff, so don't think so 19:12:38 -!- ejs [n=eugen@31-8-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:12:54 _3b: I mean the one in which you don't get a condition. 19:12:56 Does the alien-funcall stuff only change the precision, or does it also monkey with the traps? 19:13:15 -!- joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:13:25 <_3b> ah, i've loaded stuff there, so no idea what might have happened, i thought returning NaN was the default though? 19:13:29 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 19:13:31 _3b: nope. 19:14:10 <_3b> ah, guess that would make sense then 19:14:18 nyef: doesn't change traps automagically, and evne if it did, it'd be for the dynamic contour of the call. 19:14:53 snearch [n=olaf@e179134086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:07 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179134086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Killed by ballard.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 19:15:07 Right, so if it doesn't change traps automatically then alien code could change the traps for its own purposes and that would be reflected in the lisp environment. 19:15:33 snearch_ [n=olaf@e179134086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:15 -!- danlei [n=user@82.113.121.86] has quit ["Ein guter Abgang ziert die Übung."] 19:17:47 hat's interesting. 19:18:37 nyef: could be, but that doesn't happen very often, especially to set the traps to their default value. 19:21:38 evening 19:21:43 Hello Krystof. 19:21:53 anyone apart from piso found any hideous sbcl freeze bugs yet? 19:22:08 *nyef* isn't aware of any. 19:23:58 good good 19:24:16 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:24:38 *_3b* starts a build to test, remembers it works better to actually pull the changes first, starts it again... 19:25:24 -!- joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:35 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 19:31:04 have any of you guys actually ever used ken tilton's cells stuff? 19:31:36 johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-76-180-175-226.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:08 heh 19:33:20 I've implemented a fully CLOS-based replacement :) 19:33:40 can I look at the code? what was wrong with the original? :) 19:33:49 in that it uses CLOS to manage the computation and it uses MOP to integrate with CLOS slots 19:34:02 Fade: he has an operator named c8 19:34:11 *Fade* laughs 19:34:12 Fade: and the 8 stands for infinity 19:34:35 that, and it doesn't integrate with the MOP and it's not that extensible 19:34:38 fusss: ping 19:35:02 rahul: is your work available? 19:35:15 Fade: it's called formulate. common-lisp.net/project/rjain-utils/cvsroot/formulate 19:35:34 I think I'm ready to release 0.2 19:35:52 it has a GUI, too 19:36:19 not like cells has a gui, but like excel has a gui 19:36:27 interesting 19:36:33 that cvsroot appears dead 19:37:00 i see a tarball at http://common-lisp.net/project/rjain-utils/formulate-0.1.1.tar.gz 19:37:01 Fade: cvsroot/ is the cvsroot 19:37:09 formulate is the module 19:37:22 rdad [n=rdad@cpe-24-193-123-112.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:39 there have been a few improvements since 0.1.1, especially to the gui 19:37:50 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:39:10 the webserver thinkgs /project/rjain-utils/cvs-root/ doesn't exist 19:39:16 cvsroot 19:39:33 and it's a cvsroot, not an http url 19:39:56 ah 19:40:39 Fade: and it's not 1.0 yet because it's definitely not complete 19:41:14 there are almost a dozen more formulator classes I want to make to deal with various behaviors like throttling and updating values based on differentials 19:41:31 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@109-184-211-243.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 19:41:49 davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:50 but since it's CLOS-based, it's not hard for you to add your own and contribute them back :) 19:43:06 prxq [n=mommer@e176250048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:43:13 hi 19:44:18 minion: message for fusss: I see you put some stubs up a while ago for cffi ffmpeg bindings. Have you many any progress on those? I was about to start writing my own. 19:44:19 why do you tell me you were about to start writing your own now? 19:44:27 errgh 19:44:40 rahul: sweet. I'll check it out 19:44:51 Fade: share and enjoy 19:45:23 common-lisp.net doesn't have a formulate project listed on it's project page. 19:45:39 it's in the rjain-utils project for now 19:45:53 when I get to version 1.0, I'll probably split it into a separate project 19:46:04 and maybe even switch it over to svn :P 19:46:24 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:26 (git!) 19:46:28 ;) 19:46:31 heh 19:46:46 (he says, looking at the cvs manpage) 19:46:56 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:49:10 haha 19:49:34 Raptelan_ [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:45 I think cvs -d :pserver:cvs@common-lisp.net:/project/rjain-utils/cvsroot co formulate will get you the source 19:50:14 or, if you have ssh access use -d :ext:fade@common-lisp.net:/proj.../cvsroot 19:51:07 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h-64-105-143-250.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:53:21 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 19:53:45 man. 19:53:51 refuses anonymous access. 19:54:21 antifuchs: what's up with boinkgit? 19:55:04 ah, 'anonymous@' not cvs 19:55:38 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-75.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:55:44 Xach: oops. apache seems dead 19:55:47 Fade: oh. I never use anon cvs to cl.net since I have an account on there, so I never remember exactly how to do it :) 19:56:40 *Fade* nods 19:56:49 Xach: check again - should be up now 19:56:54 thanks for the alert 19:57:08 antifuchs: thought you knew...it's been down for 24-ish hours 19:57:56 yeah - I noticed the machine went down briefly, but didn't check if web service was really up... it normally restarts automatically. 19:58:06 maybe I really do need something to monitor it (: 19:58:26 wait a second 19:58:40 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:58:43 *rahul* realizes that his prototype object system may not need a metaclass 19:59:12 rahul: have you looked at drewc's implementation? 19:59:16 thanks & good night now (: 19:59:16 antifuchs: while on the subject, is the new boinkmarks page 'official' now? 19:59:19 oh 19:59:25 sykopomp: yes 19:59:30 tsuru: yes, it is 19:59:42 sykopomp: you mean lol? 19:59:54 the database schema is incompatible to the old interface, so the new one is authoritative 19:59:56 it seems every time I add a piece of functionality, I find the same amount of extraneous functionality 20:00:03 incidentally I wached your tclispers presentation on sheeple yesterday. 20:00:05 Fade: no 20:00:06 (and I really really do need to get the redirect up) 20:00:11 Fade: oh? 20:00:46 antifuchs: ah if there's going to be a redirect I won't request the plant.sbcl update its link 20:01:02 I saw you talking about sheeple here before, and I didn't really see the win over CLOS, but it looks interesting. 20:01:15 oh 20:01:19 Fade: it's a win for what I do. It may not necessarily be a win in general :) 20:01:31 there is one reason... to make sure that validate-superclass is called 20:01:34 meh 20:01:38 I like its dynamic aspects. 20:02:07 Fade: my prototypes can be subclasses of CLOS classes :) 20:02:15 Yeah, I saw that 20:02:38 my only beef with the presentation was that you were too often interrupted before you had stated your case. 20:02:42 well, they can be, but the way to do that right now is bad 20:02:54 Fade: yeah, the tclisper meetings are pretty casual like that. 20:03:29 their video presentation format is quite good. I just wished they'd shut up and let you talk. lol 20:03:41 *rahul* is listening to a song by a band called DeCells 20:03:51 and I like it! :) 20:03:59 so is ken tilton's cells stuff in the wild, or does he keep it close to his chest? 20:04:07 it's wild for sure 20:04:12 it compiles. 20:04:17 Fade: I uploaded the WIP manual for sheeple today, sinec a couple of people are using it: http://sykosomatic.org/lisp/sheeple.pdf 20:04:24 and you can download it from cl-net 20:04:43 sykopomp: get back to #lispgames! :P 20:04:44 at least it compiled a while back. 20:05:08 madnificent: just use the link :) 20:05:44 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:57 sykopomp: excellent. I love docs. :) 20:06:01 -!- brita_ [n=stitch@gw-ext.tagus.ist.utl.pt] has quit ["leaving"] 20:06:05 i know this isn't a lisp question, but... 20:06:17 the answer is 42 20:06:23 Fade: CREATE isn't documented there, and message/reply documentation is a stub right now. 20:06:27 it's a comp-sci question and i think there are a lot of smart comp-sci people here... 20:06:29 but the rest is pretty well-covered. 20:06:48 <_3b> is (defun foo () (sb-kernel:make-double-float -1 0)) failing to compile when fp traps are on expected? 20:06:59 i want to think about how to "encapsulate" a database table into an object 20:07:14 yates: look at cl-sql 20:07:21 it does that 20:07:44 relational-objects-for-lisp 20:07:49 ideally, i want something that i can reference a field by, e.g., myClients.ClientID 20:08:19 that is, i'd want a "class" that could *dynamically* ... 20:08:41 rofl does a fair bit of that. 20:08:52 parse a database table and come up with an object with properties that are the fields 20:09:01 with the added benefit of a lot of special sauce from pascal costanza 20:09:02 _3b: no, can you paste a bug report and point to make-numeric-type as the culprit? 20:09:10 <_3b> yates: maybe ask google about ORM or OODB ? 20:09:12 sykopomp: "POOP Framework"? -> rofl 20:09:29 <_3b> pkhuong: on launchpad you mean? 20:09:34 is there a lisp library to do this? 20:09:34 for instance (: 20:09:47 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-80-10.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:09:48 specifically, do this with a postgresql database? 20:09:55 or maybe generally odbc 20:10:08 yates: look at relational-objects-for-lisp it might do what you need. 20:10:15 Fade: ok thanks 20:10:16 it is postgres focused 20:10:24 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-099-124-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:25 yates: cl-sql is for sql in general 20:10:33 yates: postgres is probably the db it's used with most 20:10:40 rahul: what is "cl"? 20:10:55 [c]ommon [l]isp 20:11:00 doh! 20:11:03 right. 20:11:07 yates: the thing we talk about here... 20:11:11 yeah 20:11:21 *yates* puts tail between legs 20:11:31 yates: but it doesn't translate a schema automatically into objects, because that's wrong 20:11:59 yates: joins need to be processed specially, depending on what kind of join it is. that is usually evident from an E-R diagram 20:12:03 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:08 there's a rofl tutorial here: darcs get http://www.deepsky.com/~fade/roflcopter 20:12:33 rahul: no, that's right - otherwise you have the dual schema problem 20:13:58 don't you? :) 20:14:05 you may be able to guess based on inspecting what FKs are in the database and what the PKs of tables are 20:14:29 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:14:57 rahul: all i'm saying is that if you embed knowledge of the schema in the code, you've duplicated something so that it exists in two places and have the corresponding maintenance issue 20:15:13 yates: so you generate the schema from the code. 20:15:25 yeah, you can do it that way too 20:15:39 and you moodify your object system so that it contains ALL the informaiton about the schema 20:15:55 but usually databases outlive the code/applicatiosn that use them, so it makes more sense to me to do it the other way 20:15:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:15:57 information about how things are denormalized, all that 20:16:16 I think we really want to track special values in float types: can there be SNaN, QNaN, inf, denorms or (signed) zeros. Ranges can't fully capture floats. 20:16:16 yates: the schema will still be there when the application is turned off 20:16:39 aren't there something like 15 SNaNs and 16 QNaNs, too? 20:16:45 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:16:57 rahul: many more than that. But that's ok. 20:17:00 heh 20:17:01 ruediger_ [n=quassel@91-115-31-184.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:17:07 maybe that many for single floats :) 20:18:18 rahul: yes, that's true. i guess it's a matter of who "owns" the schema - the coder, or the database maintainer. 20:18:36 or rather, who _should_ own the schema... 20:18:40 yes 20:18:47 don't get Fare started on that :) 20:18:50 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-236-91.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:02 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:10 (fwiw, I was as passionate as him on the issue, but I don't work with him any more, so I've been able to distance myself...) 20:19:11 :) 20:19:29 (he supports the application owning the schema) 20:19:35 (and so do I) 20:19:39 well, i've just begun to look at this stuff, so i'm more dangerous than knowledgable 20:19:52 it took us 2 weeks to add a single slot to a class 20:20:09 *rahul* notices face turning red 20:20:19 rahul: would you agree clsql is what i should study? 20:20:33 yates: it's pretty fully featured 20:20:43 do you an alternate suggestion? 20:20:58 anything else will be targeted to something more specific, I think 20:21:08 so it's definitely the place to start 20:21:14 postmodern is interesting, too 20:21:25 it even has an embedded query language (DSL) 20:21:38 what i actually came here for is to ask a question that seems pretty obvious to me, but i'm not sure: 20:22:24 -!- Hooke [n=Hooke@116.Red-81-37-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 20:22:43 if you scroll up to my goal (creating an object interface to a table (or query) that itself is created dynamically (has to be for a query)), is it even possible using C++? i say no. 20:22:53 pkhuong pasted "Sorry miscompilation..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90916 20:23:21 at not by using the syntax "class.fieldname" 20:23:32 simply because that MUST be defined at compile-time. am i right? 20:23:57 s/at not/at least not/ 20:24:11 am i making sense? 20:24:16 How can I have an SBCL core dumped via SLAD use the notion of SBCL_HOME that it was dumped under instead of pulling it from the environment on startup? 20:24:29 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:41 Fade: thanks 20:25:11 and the related question is, lisp can do this, right? 20:25:24 C++: no. LISP: yes. 20:25:26 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has left #lisp 20:25:53 perhaps i'm being an iditio 20:26:20 first i should ask, does cl have objects? is it an OO language? 20:26:42 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@89.152.184.128] has joined #lisp 20:26:47 hello? 20:26:48 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 20:27:36 what, is it supper-time? 20:27:50 yates: Yes, CL has objects. 20:28:16 minion: tell yates about PCL 20:28:17 yates: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:28:23 nyef: thx. where's a good reference? 20:28:35 ok 20:28:39 Fade: thanks 20:28:46 minion: clhs? 20:28:46 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 20:29:25 The hyperspec is -the- reference, but it's not exactly for learning the language from; for that you'll probably do well with something like PCL. 20:30:04 well, i'm not a beginner, but i lack a lot too. 20:30:20 seems like everytime i come back to lisp, i have to re-learn everything... 20:30:31 don't do it often enough 20:30:38 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:30:40 yates: CL is one of the most powerful OO languages out there 20:30:55 yates: Java, C++, C#, all are weak compared to CL 20:30:56 *nyef* was deliberately leaving the boosterism alone. 20:31:12 rahul: isn't the old Winston text "LISP" about CL? 20:31:18 heh 20:31:20 kind of 20:31:20 No immediate hints on fixing my SBCL_HOME problem? 20:31:26 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-224-13.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:37 nyef: that rings a bell; search on sbcl-devel? 20:31:38 yates: it doesn't cover much of Lisp technology since 1975 20:31:41 i don't recall seeing anything particularly oo in that book 20:31:58 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:59 yates: not many texts cover Lisp OOP 20:32:04 nyef: setting SBCL_HOME to mirror the dumped value before startup doesn't work? 20:32:06 rahul: so CL2009 has extensions that CL1975? 20:32:17 yates: no, OO was in 1984 20:32:20 pcl is good for this, thought, right? 20:32:24 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:32:24 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [No route to host] 20:32:30 well, it was integrated into CL from InterLisp in 1984 20:32:31 s/thought/though/ 20:32:32 Fade: That would be a nuisance which I hope to avoid. 20:32:46 1984 is when CL was created 20:33:01 yates: PCL will give you a good intro to CLOS 20:33:02 ok, so pcl, then clsql, then postmodern. thanks people 20:33:30 yates: if you look at code I write, it goes pretty in-depth into CLOS insanity 20:33:32 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-27-140.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:38 clos? 20:33:43 santa ? 20:33:43 common lisp object system 20:33:45 Common Lisp Object System 20:33:48 ah. 20:34:04 i'm not really this stupid. really. 20:34:06 santa clos gives you the gift of awesome code :) 20:34:17 clos is a very different object system than you're likely used to; the danger is, once you get used to it, everything else starts to feel terrible. 20:34:31 Fade: no, everything else IS terrible 20:34:41 you just discover that it's terrible at that point 20:34:44 well, it's a boil the frog effect. 20:35:10 so would clos/pcl/clsql/whatever be a good choice to write some basic time-keeping (charges, expenses, etc.) software in where the data is stored back-end in postgresql? 20:35:21 yates: definitely 20:35:22 yes 20:35:25 cool 20:35:43 and there are many frameworks for webapps you can use 20:35:56 you mean server-side stuff? 20:35:57 almost as many frameworks as there are experienced webapp developers :P 20:36:09 Ugh. And the answer is "either use a wrapper or load all of the contribs before you dump the core." :-/ 20:36:17 Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-65-34.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:54 rahul: got an example site? or pointer? 20:37:08 http://www.common-lisp.net 20:37:10 Adw-charting is quite cool. Thanks to all involved! 20:37:40 and finally, why should i be investing in cl and not scheme? 20:37:45 heh 20:37:54 was that funny? 20:37:57 yates: because CL has all this stuff already 20:38:08 scheme is more like a family of incompatible implementations 20:38:28 scheme is just a foundation... there's lots that's added outside the spec 20:38:37 yates: Because our propaganda is more compelling, of course! 20:38:38 it's good for experimentation 20:38:48 but isn't there something basic like "first class functions" or somesuch that scheme has and cl doesn't? 20:38:50 yates: scrollback says it's time to shut up and go read this book you've been recommended 20:38:54 yates: no 20:39:04 yates: CL has first class syntax, scheme tries to 20:39:12 That basic something is first-class continuations, isn't it? 20:39:14 yates: scheme ha first class continuations 20:39:16 yeah 20:39:24 rahul: CL has FEXPRs? 20:39:43 yates: in scheme a function can return more than once 20:39:48 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@86.26.14.183] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:39:51 yates: the call chain is a tree, not a stack 20:39:54 *nyef* suddenly remembers "E, and shudders. 20:39:57 heh 20:40:13 pkhuong: no, the code is defined in terms of data 20:40:15 *yates* looks dazed and confused... 20:40:33 &thunk may make more sense 20:40:37 pcl is the place to start? 20:40:38 yates: doesn't really matter. With Scheme, you'll most probably end up targetting a specific implementation with SRFIs. With CL, you're more easily able to target a set of portable libraries. 20:40:44 in scheme, the code is defined in terms of character syntax, except that macros use data that's not exactly like the syntax 20:40:47 yates: yes 20:41:03 yates: the important thing is to stick to one thing and build real things with it. 20:41:16 rahul: Sure because it's the right thing 20:41:20 pkhuong: sounds wise 20:41:30 ok, going to go read. 20:41:44 any more input before i disconnect? 20:41:48 mind you, the right thing is not always the best thing, for all metrics of best anyway :) 20:41:56 thanks very much, people. 20:42:11 tcr: shrug. if I want syntax I want syntax. if I want compiler internals, I want something totally different, like a data flow graph 20:42:14 have a great Sunday! 20:42:20 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bye!"] 20:42:25 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:42:33 -!- davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:43:00 tcr: there's a research language on explicit evaluation (instead of explicit quoting, a la FEXPRs). The author thinks he can avoid some well-known problems with FEXPRs, both practical and theoretical, that way. 20:43:05 well, he was a refreshingly non-combative newbie. 20:43:21 pkhuong: was that tbf's ilc presentation? 20:43:25 tfb 20:43:27 nope. 20:43:38 Right Things are not always digestable in pure form, anyway. sometimes it's a good idea to accept substitutes 20:43:52 pkhuong: well, defmacro is basically explicit evaluation 20:43:58 cmm is obviously not a marketing person 20:44:03 (this was Worse Is Better in two sentences, btw) 20:44:09 rahul: defmacro isn't first class. 20:44:22 pkhuong: first class only means you funcall at run time 20:44:25 I last week read the paper about Dylan's D-expressions, and yeah I nodded by head all the time reading through the paper 20:44:30 I don't want my syntax to be determined at run time 20:44:51 or whatever, macro-funcall 20:45:02 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 20:45:06 rahul: why not? If we can get it to work and be just as easy to understand, or at least have the complexity be pay-as-you-go. 20:45:22 if... 20:45:35 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@e179134086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:45:41 making syntax late-binding is just too much 20:45:54 you don't even know if your program is structurally valid until you exercise your test cases 20:46:18 -!- Raptelan_ [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:46:23 although maybe it will be easier to find the offending code... 20:46:23 types! 20:47:56 aren't grammars a sort of type systems, anyway? 20:48:19 , look for comments by John Shutt (regarding ). Interesting discussion, as can be expected from Tom Lord. 20:48:51 rahul: what's the difference between that and adding a cons and a function? 20:49:20 cmm-: or type systems are a sort of grammar? (: 20:50:17 rahul: The TR above argues that it can be made to work. 20:50:57 pkhuong: if your macro language is reasonably declarative, I guess you can detect a lot at compile time 20:51:49 pkhuong: CL has the same problem at run time with keyword args and stuff like (defun foo (&rest args) (apply blah :foo bar args)) 20:52:32 you may be able to detect errors in that at compile time, but if there's a loop that munges args, you can't really know what keywords are being passed along 20:53:18 rahul: I don't see you arguing against optional or keyword arguments or apply. 20:53:25 pkhuong: right 20:53:57 *nyef* sighs. 20:54:01 pkhuong: I'm not necessarily arguing against first-class macros either... as long as there's a decent declarative system that allows the compiler to detect and even compile away much of it 20:54:25 Now I get the choice of upgrading SLIME across the board, possibly including upgrading SBCL as well, or doing without on my current project. :-/ 20:54:43 nyef: sigh-ful indeed. 20:55:00 that doesn't sound like much of a choice. 20:55:14 nyef: you can always use vi to code C 20:55:53 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 20:55:59 ok, my metaclassless formulate passes unit tests 20:56:16 now to test subclassing of CLOS classes 20:56:44 or should I bother? 20:56:59 *nyef* takes the bits for loading SLIME out of his build script. 20:57:37 ooo I know a cool test case 20:57:47 class allocated slot that's also found in a delegate 20:59:11 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:42 nyef: how hard would it be for structs to be compatible with C, if boxed and unboxed slots could be mixed arbitrarily? 21:00:04 pkhuong: Compatible in what sense? 21:00:10 identical layout 21:00:33 a boxed slot would be something opaque to C? 21:00:47 You mean, being able to export a C struct definition for a lisp struct? 21:01:23 Or something else? 21:01:46 the other way would be cool... a metaclass with a custom layout that can just have its "data vector" passed to C for FFI 21:02:06 -!- karme [n=user@kallisto.karme.de] has left #lisp 21:02:38 Well, that if you stuck to T slots, native (or narrower) integers, SAPs and floats/complex floats (what else do we support as unboxed slots), you'd get the same layout as if you'd written the same slots in C, with T slots represented as void*. 21:02:44 might even be able to use the :type option for defstruct 21:02:59 pkhuong: exactly 21:03:26 I'm still not seeing what you hope to accomplish here. 21:03:48 nyef: you can defstruct something and instances of it have the same memory layout as C structs 21:04:15 so you can use normal lisp access methods instead of needing ot use alien functions to manipulate a C struct 21:04:55 rahul: well, not quite. The struct could be passed to C, but not vice versa. The situation would be similar to specialised simple-arrays. 21:05:05 pkhuong: that's an interesting discussion of fexprs; thanks for the link. 21:05:58 pkhuong: yes 21:06:08 pkhuong: it would be useful for structs created in lisp 21:06:31 they would be normal lisp objects, just with a special layout 21:07:08 you could even add some options for slots to indicate exact bit widths 21:07:49 eh, actually, you don't need to... just use (un)signed-byte as the type, and it will use exactly that many bits 21:08:07 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:21 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:08:31 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:08:45 nyef: unboxed slots only at the end are a pet peeve of mine. I want unboxed slots to be stuck alongsize regular slots; that'd simplify access up, especially with inheritance. I'm not sure how hard it would be to set the layout exactly like C, or what the consequences would be. 21:09:19 it would probably be extra work for the GC 21:09:36 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 21:09:58 but only in the case that it detects one of these layouts... it needs to find the class def or something equivalent to figure out where boxed values reside 21:10:17 rahul: that's not the part I'm worried about, except if there's some issue I don't see with unaligned lisp pointers. 21:10:33 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:04 hmm yeah, type tags might not work right 21:13:02 car and cdr usually depend on the lowtag being what it is and using a constant offset, right? 21:14:04 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:06 quodlibetor [n=user@cpe-69-203-201-201.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:09 ziga` [n=user@89.142.60.68] has joined #lisp 21:15:20 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:16:18 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:24 davazp [n=user@218.Red-83-37-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:29 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-199-180.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:19:18 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:24 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:48 -!- cipher [i=weinsd0@monica.cs.rpi.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:08 voidpointer [i=Void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #lisp 21:23:21 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 21:24:56 rahul: huh? no, that's no the issue. The problem is with an unaligned lispobj*. But I think most ABIs specify natural alignment for pointers anyway. 21:27:38 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@109-184-211-243.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:04 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:28:35 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:28:48 oh ok 21:28:55 was thinking about something else there :P 21:29:31 yeah, mostly they're going to want that stuff aligned because that's all the CPU will accept 21:30:09 and it's not worth the performance hit of loading two words and bitshifting 21:30:53 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 21:30:59 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 21:33:23 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:33:25 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCEAC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 21:34:21 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:21 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-207-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 21:43:52 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:45 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:47:52 rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:00 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@190.135.44.207] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:13 i am ready to dump apache and go hunchentoot 21:48:22 how do i proceed? 21:49:08 <_3b> clbuild install hunchentoot, then read the intro in the hunchentoot docs? 21:49:19 but usually you use a reverse proxy in front of hunchentoot 21:49:33 uh that sounds a little too gentooese 21:49:34 -!- rdad [n=rdad@cpe-24-193-123-112.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:50:12 reverse proxy? to proxy the incoming traffic? 21:51:07 but i don't want anything but hunchentoot 21:53:45 why? 21:54:23 remote [n=remote@unaffiliated/remote] has joined #lisp 21:57:55 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@72.228.150.44] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 21:58:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:28 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Success] 21:59:03 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:17 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:01:19 colin_ [n=colin@118-169-42-18.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:34 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-199-180.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Zzz"] 22:02:44 rdad [n=rdad@cpe-24-193-123-112.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:51 francogrex [n=user@91.180.93.85] has joined #lisp 22:05:27 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:31 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:51 pkhuong: On the structs thing, I'd pass a tagged pointer and use a packed C struct with padding at the beginning to accommodate the header. 22:07:11 That said, it's a hack no matter how I look at it. 22:07:26 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:13 Osaka_ [n=Alien@fl-71-3-65-34.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:15 rares: you don't want any static content at all... or caching, or url rewriting, etc? 22:10:35 p0a [n=user@athedsl-393554.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:10:37 hello 22:10:43 -!- Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-65-34.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:10:44 how to print a character with format n times? 22:11:04 ~n~ will print ~ n times, same for ~%, but not for ~C! 22:11:55 I ended up doing (substitute #\c #\~ (format nil "~n~" k)) 22:11:58 -!- Osaka_ is now known as Osaka 22:13:31 -!- colin__ [n=colin@118-169-41-203.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:46 p0a: are you embedding this in some larger format string? 22:15:58 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 22:16:10 es 22:16:13 yes 22:16:40 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:17:57 I don't know of an efficient way to do this 22:17:58 <_3b> you could abuse mincol and padchar if you don't mind an extra arg and write-only code 22:18:11 heh, I guess, yeah :) 22:18:19 lisp video: http://filebin.ca/aphvnn/xong-promo.mpg 22:18:59 dto: what kind of video is that? 22:19:03 _3b: mincol? 22:19:08 <_3b> (format t "~3,,,va" #\a "") => aaa 22:19:16 right 22:19:34 thanks! 22:19:35 or you can do ~v,,,va" 3 #\a "" 22:19:44 <_3b> p0a: one of the common format args, minimum columns 22:19:52 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:56 if you want the number of repetitions to be a parameter, too 22:20:16 <_3b> yeah, i couldn't tell which was intended from the example 22:20:52 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:20:56 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:21:14 p0a: trailer promo for a game written in lisp 22:21:19 free, of course 22:21:42 it'll be up on youtube momentarily as well, if that's more convenient 22:21:49 great 22:22:21 if there's letter bits you should enable high quality mode (I've never uploaded a video on youtube so I don't know the specifics) 22:26:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9mi08KQDWw 22:26:33 the high res won't be available for probably 15 to 20 minutes 22:26:47 it processes it in the background. so if you want quality, watch the mpg i linked. 22:28:02 i'd like to try it 22:28:08 does it have a project page? 22:28:32 it's in the video description 22:28:50 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-393554.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 22:29:00 this is a trippy game 22:29:23 http://dto.github.com/notebook/xong.html 22:29:34 Osaka_ [n=Alien@fl-71-3-65-34.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:38 -!- Osaka_ [n=Alien@fl-71-3-65-34.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:41 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.60.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:51 ziga` [n=user@89.142.60.68] has joined #lisp 22:32:31 I would love to figure out how to use the debugger or trace functionality for sbcl and slime 22:32:36 -!- NNshag [i=user@82.253.5.201] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:42 any good info on this anywhere? 22:33:32 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:34:02 Or I may need to resort to print statements 22:34:39 that would be kennyesque! 22:34:54 you can just do (trace function-name) to trace a functoin 22:34:56 clhs trace 22:34:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm 22:35:14 also, the docstring for trace is helpful 22:35:23 banisterfiend_ [n=little_b@203-211-70-95.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:35:32 you can trace with a break to get into the debugger 22:35:37 -!- banisterfiend_ [n=little_b@203-211-70-95.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:59 if you copmiled your code with debug 3, you can step in the debugger, C-h m to get a list of keybindings 22:36:00 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.211.75] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:36:02 I wil read up on trace 22:36:34 the higher the debug level, the more parameters and local variables you can see 22:36:56 also, if it's high enough, you can reload the definition dynamically 22:37:00 I'm typing in emacs and ctrl-c ctrl-c to compile into sbcl 22:37:05 well, you can do that all the time 22:37:06 right 22:37:17 in the debugger, c-c c-c works, too 22:37:26 I need to turn on debug compile I guess 22:37:37 then you can go to a frame and hit "r" to restart the execution of that function with the updated definition 22:37:52 clhs declaim 22:37:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_declai.htm 22:39:11 demmeln [n=Adium@188.104.85.104] has joined #lisp 22:39:58 -!- jedbrown [n=jed@vawpc43.ethz.ch] has quit ["leaving"] 22:40:01 <_3b> compile with C-u C-c C-c instead of just C-c C-c to get full debug 22:40:01 sdfsdf_ [n=little_b@203-211-70-95.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:40:22 -!- sdfsdf_ [n=little_b@203-211-70-95.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:40:52 Ok 22:41:30 oh, right 22:41:35 forgot about that way of doing it 22:42:06 does that also work for C-u C-c C-k? 22:43:52 gruseom [n=daniel@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:13 <_3b> don't know about that, doesn't look like it though 22:44:36 -!- Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:52 grr. 22:45:00 oh well 22:45:32 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:25 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@188.104.85.104] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:46:25 -!- Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-65-34.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:31 How do I set a debug point. The docs and the examples are lacking big time 22:47:58 Does anyone know of a more detailed website or youtbe video... or something along those lines 22:48:24 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 22:49:06 Error. Make that break point. 22:50:25 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:50:27 I am able to trace. But it runs to completion and the relevant info is lost in a sea of output. Would I be able to step through program run like with gdb 22:50:28 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:50:29 ? 22:50:46 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:52:04 -!- Dodek_ [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:43 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:54:33 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:14 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7571ae.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:27 clhs step 22:56:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_step.htm 22:57:02 You may have to recompile with higher debug setting, or to make sure you use the interpreter. 22:57:41 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:14 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:37 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:59:47 Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-65-34.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:51 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:06:34 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:08:39 clhs unwind-protect 23:08:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_unwind.htm 23:08:41 -!- icarus [n=tits@unaffiliated/icarus-/x-7520418] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:09:40 SCORE! 23:09:52 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-27-121.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:10:01 prototypes now allows subclassing of any standard-class into a prototype 23:10:17 my test case uses class-allocated slots :P 23:12:41 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@cpe-69-203-201-201.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:55 and I removed the metaclass 23:13:16 and I speed up subclass searching 23:16:01 how do i get sbcl to print out a floating point number instead of fractional numbers 23:16:13 decimal point instead of ratio 23:17:04 rdad: If you're using FORMAT, then ~F might help. Otherwise, calling FLOAT on the number to convert it from a ratio to a floating point number might do the trick. 23:17:14 -!- aack [n=user@83.161.214.179] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:17:38 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.76.26] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:18:18 Ok. I just have a simple function finding cube roots 23:18:27 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:42 so do: (float (mycr 8)) ? 23:19:46 (float ...) did the trick. Before it was retuning values like:553512181559331878657626239587324645011466316388488176884281054887866102/276755411113279254574102308733449275255347294994435514907785022993758075 23:20:26 Note that until you call FLOAT that the value is being stored internally as a ratio, which may not be what you want. 23:20:44 (For performance reasons if nothing else.) 23:20:45 yeah, it's doing rational bignum math, so it will be very slow 23:20:47 but exact 23:20:58 rdad: yes, you could also start with floats. 23:21:26 rdad: but if you want to find cube roots, why not just ask for the cube root? 23:21:45 (expt 8 1/3) 23:21:46 nyef: I see 23:22:03 rahul: I'm just learning the paradigms of functional programming 23:22:14 or (expt 8.0d0 (/ 1.0d0 3.0d0)) 23:22:18 eh? 23:22:40 just building random functions from scratch 23:22:59 rdad: was the goal to implement newton's method as an exercise or something? 23:23:05 exactly 23:23:07 :) 23:23:08 ok 23:23:26 well, you learned something important about math in CL, too :) 23:23:55 rdad: try (mycr 8.0) and (mycr 8.0d0) as well 23:23:57 <_3b> watch out for (expt -8 1/3) though, might not be what you expect :) 23:23:57 redblue [i=star@ppp085.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:24:10 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-099-124-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:24:23 _3b: but it's better :D 23:24:24 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-16097.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:38 <_3b> rahul: only if it is what you want :) 23:25:05 _3b: if it's not, just rotate it! 23:25:06 prxq: good point. Doing (mycr 8.0) as oppose to (mycr 8) kept everything in floats and it actually made my trace output extremely more readable 23:25:35 <_3b> rahul: and if you want it quickly? 23:27:59 _3b: what do you mean quickly? 23:28:07 rdad: if you are after the pure functional thrill, be sure to check out scheme &/| haskell. 23:28:09 _3b: you hand roll a polynomial. 23:29:09 prxq: I'm learning scheme by default :) I'm actually following the excercises in SICP but I'm doing the examples in lisp 23:29:41 ok :) 23:29:53 rdad: be careful not to overflow the stack :) 23:30:02 :D 23:30:04 rdad: at debug 3, tail calls will not be optimized 23:30:41 I have figured out how to trace, but the dbugger is a jungle to me 23:30:50 *prxq* got 'learning haskell' and 'learning scheme' on his to do list for some time now 23:31:27 why scheme if you already know lisp? 23:31:41 rdad: why C++ if you already know Java? 23:31:48 they're different languages with different features 23:31:52 Haskell is on my list too 23:32:14 scheme has some similarities, but the fundamental definitions of most of the basics are completely opposed 23:32:24 C++ and Java are used in multiple industries, Scheme is mostly used in school 23:32:25 they're almost like perfect complements to each other 23:32:46 motorola uses scheme to track the status of their factories 23:32:55 Really? 23:32:58 yeah 23:33:02 Interesting 23:33:03 rdad: I've received more job offers for CL and scheme than in Java, C or C++. 23:33:24 Java programmers are a dime a dozen 23:33:25 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-75.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Success] 23:33:43 Lisp is used in multiple industries. But I thought scheme was mostly academia 23:33:57 rdad: mostly, yes, but there are commercial usages 23:34:23 scheme's strength is having a small core and the ability to experiment more easily 23:34:42 although in CL, you can do similar experimentation in your own package 23:34:59 rdad: my motivation is that these languages have interesting concepts, not because of their industrial applicability. 23:35:02 which is more marketable, lisp or scheme knowledge ? 23:35:17 rdad: depends on what market you want to hit 23:35:30 the market that pays ig $$$ 23:35:35 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-31-184.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:36 big** 23:35:39 rdad: neither 23:35:44 :) 23:35:52 if you want big money, you go into business 23:36:15 if you want to earn real money, learn cobol. 23:36:25 or something like that. 23:36:26 you can make six figures with any language, as long as you're good 23:36:36 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 23:36:37 mainframe assembler 23:36:47 cobol?!?! 23:36:54 yeah, cobol. 23:36:58 COBOL afaik starts with big figures and job insurance ;-) 23:37:06 then it gets higher ;-) 23:37:10 job insurance maybe 23:37:22 rdad: which leads to higher salaries 23:37:30 point taken 23:37:38 *p_l* is still considering getting that structured cobol programming book... 23:37:41 <_3b> hmm, i guess actually checking for negative numbers if you want real cube root doesn't slow it down much 23:39:02 btw, regarding scheme, I think various small interpreters are used as embedded languages in multiple places 23:39:04 OT: brush like a spartan: http://i.imgur.com/HiYrh.jpg 23:39:07 hillarious 23:39:36 clhs signum 23:39:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_signum.htm 23:39:47 _3b: you can even use signum 23:39:47 rahul: lol 23:40:18 <_3b> rahul: yeah, that was my first try 23:40:22 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e176250048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["good night"] 23:40:25 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.154.16] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:40:33 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-147-238.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:26 <_3b> was the first thing i tried rather 23:49:55 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:50:20 Why does ~g format give trailing blanks? (format t "~18g|" pi) -> "3.141592653589793 |" but (format t "~18f|" pi) -> " 3.141592653589793|"? 23:52:33 LiamH: space for the e123 part 23:53:13 er 23:53:16 rahul: but it's not used here 23:53:23 LiamH: yeah, in case it is 23:53:36 that seems... odd 23:53:44 <_3b> 'because the spec says so'? :) 23:54:40 <_3b> you could use "~18,,-2g|" 23:54:40 _3b: I'll take your word for it, because every time I've tried to read the spec on floating point format, I get more confused. 23:55:40 *_3b* doesn't know what other side effects that would hav ethough 23:55:50 _3b: That does seem to work. 23:57:04 LiamH: the important thing is ~ee@T 23:57:14 <_3b> yeah, looks like it should ignore th -2 if it needs to print an exponent 23:57:32 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.15.105] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:51 right 23:58:13 e is the size of the exponent basically 23:58:32 + 2 is for the separator and sign characters 23:59:57 Hmm, I always thought ~g would shift to exponent notation if the exponent got too large, but it seems to just add zeros.