00:01:19 -!- nyquist`` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:04 ncognito [n=richard@75-151-75-13-Lakecounty.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:45 functional programming doesn't imply lazy evaluation does it? 00:04:01 no 00:04:23 but it's useful to have lazy eval because order of execution doesn't matter 00:04:37 and then you can use infinite data structures without a problem 00:05:11 rahul: infinite data structures = using "generators" ja? 00:05:43 optikalmouse: not really. You just don't evaluate the functions need to get their contents unless you actually need that indice 00:05:47 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C7CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:05:51 ah ok 00:06:26 optikalmouse: you can do it using generators, too 00:07:43 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:09:22 Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 00:10:14 rahul: so to have non-lazy-eval for a functional language would mean that order of execution would matter and that would mainly be a surface diff (funcs have to be declared before they're used, etc.), ja? 00:11:13 no 00:11:30 it would mean that you'll do more execution that may be necessary 00:11:37 more than 00:11:56 I guess functions would have to be declared before use, too. 00:12:32 hmm 00:15:52 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:06 george_ [n=george@189.107.155.110] has joined #lisp 00:16:21 which is the best lisp GUI ? 00:17:04 george_: based on the number of shipping commercial GUI applications, i would guess CAPI. 00:17:09 george_, you mean an IDE for developing Common Lisp programs? 00:17:10 george_: but there are many other ways to measure. 00:17:26 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:17:43 Clearly, the best one is Dynamic Windows. Just because. 00:17:45 ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-96-116.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:20 -!- george [n=george@189.107.186.70] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:21:24 stephenry [n=user@cpc2-grnk1-0-0-cust818.renf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:43 -!- stephenry [n=user@cpc2-grnk1-0-0-cust818.renf.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 00:24:13 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:25:37 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-134.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:25:51 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 00:26:02 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-160.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:26:20 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:26:38 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.155.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:27:18 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A832C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:54 -!- davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:31:17 george_ [n=george@189.107.137.57] has joined #lisp 00:31:38 Adlai: no i ment GUI , like GTK and stuff 00:33:23 There's CAPI, which Xach mentioned, but it's not cheap. There are open-source ones too, such as McCLIM and LTK. 00:34:01 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-126-110.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:34:06 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Smile! "] 00:34:25 milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.93] has joined #lisp 00:34:27 i would preffer an open source one ... 00:35:05 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:39:36 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:39:52 -!- InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 00:40:01 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:40:05 Adlai: what about gtk wrap ? 00:40:15 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:40:41 minion, tell us about ltk 00:40:42 us: please look at ltk: LTK is a Common Lisp Graphics Toolkit Library for Tk, which provides a complete CLOS binding to the Tk widget set. http://www.cliki.net/ltk 00:41:04 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:20 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 00:41:39 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:53 CAPI isn't that expensive when comparing it to windows... 00:44:56 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 00:46:31 Is LTK a binding to tcl/tk ? 00:46:46 yes 00:47:44 _8david` [n=user@pD954087F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:48:07 sssort of 00:48:16 it talks over a pipe 00:49:06 -!- _8david [n=user@pD95425DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:50:36 Xach: gtk or tcl/tk ? your opinion 00:50:53 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:36 gtk is really quirky 00:51:38 george_: i don't think that's very interesting. a nice enough application will be used regardless of the toolkit. 00:51:44 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.93] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:51:48 but tk is a little lame sometimes 00:51:54 george_: and a boring application will be ignored with the finest toolkit around. 00:52:08 nice-enoughness can be limited if the toolkit is too limiting :( 00:52:24 and your application should not be tied to the toolkit 00:52:24 ltk seemed quite capable, but it depends on what you are making. 00:52:27 it's just a user interface 00:52:28 george_: what are you making? 00:52:35 i.e. if gtk limits your threading etc 00:52:46 the core application logic should be written using... well... data structures 00:53:00 guaqua: no toolkit limits threading 00:53:14 guaqua: worst case, all interaction with the toolkit ends up being in a single thread 00:53:24 Xach: at the moment nothing ... but i have to choose some gui one day 00:53:33 my experience is from doing pygtk with python, so ... 00:53:44 but you'd need to serialize user interaction anyway unless it's a multiuser applicaiton 00:54:20 guaqua: uh, gtk is not the limitation there 00:54:47 george_: oh, intellectual wankery is best done in private. 00:55:04 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:09 this is son #python 00:55:15 s/son/not 00:56:05 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:56:08 guaqua: yeah, so don't complain about limitations of python here where we do have mulltithreading :) 00:56:53 unless it's that other python (: 00:57:04 rahul: obviously you don't know what i mean 00:59:09 pkhuong, hasn't SBCL diverged a lot from CMUCL, though? Maybe SBCL's python needs a new name... 00:59:25 i.e. gtk and python's own threading don't mix very well. hopefully it isn't the case with lisp's gtk ffi implementations 00:59:49 this gui discussion is so ridiculously hypothetical 01:00:21 guaqua is hypothesizing about limitations that they may have in some hypothetical universe 01:00:22 rahul, as Xach pointed out, it's not a discussion, it's wankery. 01:00:24 i'd like to know if someone here has used lisp's gtk bindings 01:00:46 and george is asking about what gui is best for no application 01:00:50 Adlai: not that much in the compiler's internals. 01:01:18 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:23 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-96-116.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:46 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:03:58 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:03 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:07 itsy bitsy teeny weeny polka dot weenie? 01:05:17 mis 01:05:18 heh 01:05:23 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:32 i am passing some symbols into a macro, optionally i would like to prefix their name, is the only option to; get symbol-name, concatenate the prefix and create a new symbol? 01:09:02 minion, tell Guthur about Alexandria 01:09:03 Guthur: please look at Alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/Alexandria 01:10:30 Guthur: beware of the confusion that will create 01:10:51 well, it might be ok if the prefix is not passed by the user 01:11:01 rahul which alexandria or my aim? 01:11:13 still, it will not help people who are writing modular applications 01:11:18 Guthur: your aim 01:11:36 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B994.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:56 its more for internal convenience 01:13:05 the macros will produce m11 m12 m22 m22 etc for a given matrix 01:13:25 Guthur, by the way, your SquirL demo doesn't work anymore, since squirl itself has changed a lot in the past week. Do you want to update it? 01:13:39 Guthur: what happens for a 10x10 matrix? 01:13:47 Guthur: and which package will those variables be in? 01:13:53 Guthur: is that really better than (m 2 2)? 01:13:56 rahul, I assume the user passes the dimension to the macro. 01:14:13 Adlai: right, and? What's m111? 01:14:15 Adlai: that's how the problem could occur 01:14:46 Never said I liked the idea... 01:14:50 diracdelta [n=diracdel@adsl-76-247-105-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:51 if you didn't allow the user to specify dimension, you'd be ok because you'd forbid anything larger than 9x9 01:15:02 its not that general purpose 01:15:12 rahul: well, 10x10, if indices are sane. 01:15:14 -!- diracdelta [n=diracdel@adsl-76-247-105-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:15:42 you could also avoid that problem by using "normal" notation -- m[0,10] 01:15:48 its aimed towards games, which will want a max of 4x4, for most conceivable use cases 01:16:01 pkhuong: insane indicies have already been described as the state of affairs 01:16:15 why would games only have 4x4 matricies? 01:16:24 for transformations 01:16:26 rahul: projection matrices. 01:16:30 why would they have more 01:16:31 rahul: 3d engines. 01:16:36 oh, 3d graphics, not games 01:16:52 Guthur: because games tend to have more than 4 elements 01:17:01 if you want a general storage matrix there is solutions already 01:17:13 Guthur: so, what are you gaining by creating this? 01:17:21 its for performance 01:17:27 *rahul* boggles 01:17:36 Guthur: all it could do is slow things down 01:17:53 usually you will never access transformation matricies by element 01:17:54 i assume they will be based on lists or arrays, which don't cut it 01:18:02 huh? 01:18:04 Guthur, it would bind variables? 01:18:16 note that using with-accessors to create symbol macros won't bind variables 01:18:18 Guthur: you multiply the matricies 01:18:25 its for matrix arithmetic you will access the elements 01:18:45 Guthur: the end user doesn't need to write the arithmetic 01:18:50 in fact, they shouldn't 01:18:51 ya i need to 01:19:04 i said it was internal convenience 01:19:10 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 01:19:25 Guthur, what about pkhuong's suggestion of something with "Lispier" syntax? 01:19:28 wow, you're going to write a macro to implement 4x4 matrix multiplication? 01:19:50 you mean an NxN matrix? :X 01:19:52 i said arithmetic, that is more than one operation 01:20:00 (with-matrix (m (some-call returns-a-matrix)) (rob (m 1 3))) 01:20:02 -!- ncognito [n=richard@75-151-75-13-Lakecounty.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 01:20:03 * frob 01:20:10 Guthur: what do you need besides multiplication? 01:20:27 2 operations: matrix-matrix and matrix-vector 01:20:55 well its a nice exercise as well 01:21:01 no it's not 01:21:12 breaking your skull is not considered exercize 01:21:12 rahul: solving a linear system could be expressed that way 01:21:21 yes it is because i haven't wrote that many macros so need the practice 01:21:28 and i can't learn if i don't do 01:21:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 01:21:53 breaking your skull is not the way to make it stronger 01:22:04 do something properly if you want to learn how to do it 01:22:15 i actually reuse so of it for my vector access as well 01:22:25 its all the same underlying structure 01:22:30 *rahul* facepalm 01:22:31 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:22:35 so/some 01:22:45 Guthur: the most important thing about learning how to write macros is NOT writing them 01:23:04 err? 01:23:17 I mean learning how to NOT write them 01:23:21 the most important thing about macros or the most important thing about learning to write macros? 01:23:40 you have to learn it if it's the most important thing about macros 01:23:44 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:23:51 ericjames [n=ericjeld@32.135.80.154] has joined #lisp 01:24:06 the key is knowing them a macro is not appropriate 01:24:10 knowing when 01:24:18 how much is a "capi" license ? 01:24:26 george_: $1500 01:24:31 it's lispworks 01:24:33 o.O 01:24:50 george_: the closest competitor is $1200 01:25:14 at least, the non-lisp competitor 01:25:29 adlai so does the the element at 1 3 get assigned to rob in that 01:25:38 redblue [i=star@ppp185.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:25:50 Adlai pasted "WITH-MATRIX macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90407 01:27:09 adlai cheers 01:27:25 george_: a programmer's time costs more than $1500 a week anyway 01:28:11 so if you only did one project, that would mean approx 1/25 of the budget is for the IDE 01:28:11 Guthur, you're welcome. Also, as far as the technicalities of macro-writing go, you might want to look at the backquote syntax in that macro, as it's not trivial. 01:29:32 adlai i know i seen similar ones in the squirl project, i wanted that style but found it hard to work out, lack of macro knowledge and practice 01:29:35 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 01:30:00 Guthur, you should NOT try to emulate my with-place macro, it's buggy. 01:30:38 hehe probably not as hacking as my symbol prefix idea 01:31:56 it's pretty similar, but it's also a quick hack that should be taken out before a "release" of SquirL. 01:32:01 oh ya i noticed the demo doesn't work no more there 01:32:24 well, we have two working demos now using UID.base 01:32:43 ragnul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:25 symbol prefixing can work pretty well if it's a constant prefix 01:33:37 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:33:39 and that quote on matrix is unnecessary 01:35:07 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66.234.32.150] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:35:10 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:35:30 -!- ragnul is now known as rahul 01:35:50 rahul, how is it unnecessary? 01:36:17 you don't want to expand to (aref '#:matrix1234 x y) 01:36:26 rahul lol i was wondering how you knew when you were ragnul, as you had joined after the convo 01:37:37 rahul, it doesn't expand to that. 01:38:16 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:39:29 ls 01:39:48 benny [n=benny@87.122.143.4] has joined #lisp 01:42:18 in regard to symbol prefixing, do i need to get the name, concatenate and make a new symbol 01:42:48 rahul: there is a "free" version of capi at lispworks 01:43:34 Guthur: Typically, yes, but the "easy" way is (intern (format nil "PREFIX-~A" name)). 01:43:53 There may be an easier way in, say, Alexandria. 01:43:56 george_: yeah, it's a trial version basically 01:44:07 nyef ok, cheers 01:44:09 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-214-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:44:11 Guthur, try ALEXANDRIA:SYMBOLICATE 01:44:12 NO NO 01:44:34 (intern (format nil "PREFIX-~A" name) (symbol-package name)) 01:46:25 adlai i don't see that in the manual 01:46:33 ok, I guess if you're worried about package issues, ALEXANDRIA:FORMAT-SYMBOL could be better 01:46:51 Guthur, apropos + documentation + M-. > manual 01:49:12 alexandria:format-symbol looks like a nice option 01:50:59 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:00 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:39 <_deepfire> Okay, the buildbot's plumbing is mostly functional. 01:51:56 <_deepfire> Now I need to drive hunchentoot with the results. 01:52:04 There's a highly improbable bug in gencgc/x86 I'm surprised we've never hit. 01:53:34 pkhuong: Oh? 01:53:47 sniff_code_object does a byte-by-byte disassembly to look for pointers to fix up. 01:54:33 <_deepfire> Any web folk with quick pointers on how to make hunchentoot cooperate with me continuously updating (appending to the end of) page? 01:55:58 So it scans byte by byte for something that looks like the cases we're interested in and fixes the EA up. Maybe our error codes never look like these, but with unboxed constants, it could easily happen. 01:56:17 -!- dmiitri [n=dmitri@227.165.8.67.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit ["bees"] 01:57:10 pkhuong: Is that actually used? I thought that was what the fixup vector was for. 01:57:20 _deepfire out of curiosity what do you mean by that last statement, the server 'serves' the page its not the other way round, post data withstanding 01:57:45 nyef: there's no fixup vector that I can see. 01:57:53 <_deepfire> Guthur, "me" is server-side 01:58:17 <_deepfire> Guthur, basically, I have a long-running command, and I want live-update on its progress 01:58:32 Each code component is -supposed- to have a vector of offsets within it containing pointers that need fixing on relocation as its first constant or so. 01:58:55 There's a chunk in genesis that does the allocation and initialization of these vectors for x86. 01:59:05 well you would have to set the expiry and then have some polling clientside if you want the changes viewed there, i think that is the only option anyway 01:59:09 yup, but a quick inspection of code components will reveal that's not the case anymore. 01:59:23 <_deepfire> Guthur, have you seen the SBCL's waterfall? 01:59:40 oh, it's jsut left unitialised, sometimes. 01:59:44 ... It's not? In that case, I'd seriously worry about the code that sets up the relocations in genesis. 01:59:53 Probably those cases that don't need fixups. 01:59:58 Yup. 02:00:02 _deepfire sorry i think i am confused at what this is 02:00:06 -!- optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279398185.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:06 That's... less worrisome. 02:00:13 i thought this was just normal web dev 02:00:24 _deepfire: what's the problem? 02:00:33 _deepfire: are you doing finish-output? 02:00:48 nyef: I wonder why we kept the extra slot on x86-64, though. 02:01:01 It's easier to not mess with it? 02:01:33 And, actually, there might have been code on x86-64 until not too long ago to actually -create- the useless fixup table. 02:01:33 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:10 I distinctly remember cleaning up some amount of waste around the fixup-vector stuff at one point. 02:02:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:04 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@67.180.9.222] has quit [] 02:04:38 so, that only leaves the sanity check code. 02:05:31 I guess I can live with bogus code fixup errors until we have better debug info for constants 02:06:05 Seems to me the fixup vector is exactly what the trace table could be used for though. 02:06:40 Yes, but it's easier to discard the fixup vectors than the trace tables. 02:06:52 And, amazingly enough, that is an actual use-case. 02:07:02 how? 02:07:07 Smaller cores. 02:07:17 Yeah, but :purify is a no-op. 02:07:30 This was back when. 02:10:49 Random genesis change: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/commitdiff/157d5773cc849fe20635b6e1f5099164cd11bacb 02:14:36 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:17:40 <_deepfire> rahul, have you seen hunchentoot:process-request? The output is started after the request handler has returned. 02:18:45 <_deepfire> Apparently I need to specialise it. 02:19:07 oh, right 02:19:19 yeah, CLOS to the rescue 02:23:12 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15252.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:36 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:18 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 02:40:20 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-3-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:42:03 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:46:36 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:24 <_deepfire> Hunh, process-request dispatches upon requests, but the request class is a property of the current acceptor == property of port. 02:49:38 <_deepfire> Sigh. 02:53:09 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:42 I was going to worry about aligning assembler routines, but they don't *particularly* need alignment anyway. 02:57:26 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:59:31 Actually, I could make a case that aligning the assembler routines would be bad. 02:59:57 bgs100 [n=ian@h90.24.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:29 (Under the current scheme, the assembler routines are all concatenated without padding, allowing for control flow to fall off the bottom of one and onto the next.) 03:00:46 where do we use that? 03:00:56 Are you sure we don't? 03:01:15 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:02:48 not on x86-64, that's for sure. 03:02:50 Hrm... One assembly-routine for the win32 support ends in a CALL instruction, but it's calling RtlUnwind@16. 03:03:21 And any argument involving SBCL-os is laughable, really. 03:03:50 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:31 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:07:31 deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.166.144.233] has joined #lisp 03:09:50 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:11:34 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:15:38 excuse me if I get my terminology wrong here; I am generating a list of symbols (the prefixed thing from earlier) during macro expansion time, I then want to use that list in the expanded code, but it evaluates it as a function call, what's the solution? 03:16:57 ',list 03:17:25 i tried that, thought it would be the solution, let me do it again to see what problem was 03:18:23 oh yep it sees it as '(symbol1 symbol2) and not a list of symbols 03:18:46 What do you think '(symbol1 symbol2) evaluates into? 03:18:53 i know 03:18:57 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:19:00 but thats not what it says 03:19:05 Quoting will prevent evaluation, that's for sure. The real solution is simply to make sure you generate what you mean. Once you can tell us what it is you mean, we'll be able to help. 03:19:39 You said you didn't want the list to evaluate as a function call. We can't exactly guess what it is you want the list to evaluate as. 03:19:51 as a list of symbols 03:20:11 And by symbol, you mean the value of the variable named by that symbol, I suppose? 03:20:19 ragnul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:21 `(list ,@symbols). 03:20:31 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:20:39 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:17 no not the values the symbols themselves, i am passing it to a multiple-value-bind 03:21:17 Arelius [n=Indy@208.87.217.194] has joined #lisp 03:21:36 And what's the problem with (multiple-value-bind ,symbols ...)? 03:21:54 Can anyone recommend any good introductory material for a scheme programmer? 03:22:05 Arelius, you should go to #scheme 03:22:06 Arelius: introduction to what? 03:22:13 that said, SICP is highly recommended 03:22:21 Sorry, introduction to CL 03:22:25 oh 03:22:28 minion, tell Arelius about PCL 03:22:29 Arelius: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:22:38 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:22:53 phkunong i am generating the symbols at expansion time, and ,symbols gets evaluated as a function 03:23:17 Guthur, it shouldn't, if you do (m-v-b ,symbols ...) 03:24:03 Guthur: I'm sorry, my telepathic hat seems to be malfunctioning. Again, the depth of your misunderstanding seems to be in the way of attaining understanding. 03:24:05 umm maybe i'm not collecting the symbols right 03:24:38 Adlai: So is there not a good text that just covers the *common* lisp specifics? 03:24:46 -!- ragnul is now known as rahul 03:25:26 Arelius, maybe the hyperspec? PCL is pretty good though, maybe skip the first *few* chapters if you feel they're just a general Lisp intro. 03:25:51 Ok, thanks 03:25:51 Arelius: most of the basic stuff in CL is different from scheme 03:25:51 but as for CL, if you're wondering about any standard function or syntax... 03:25:54 clhs #( 03:25:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm 03:26:07 clhs defclass 03:26:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm 03:26:27 Arelius: the evaluation rules are different, booleans are different, the defining forms work differently 03:26:35 Arelius: PCL's TOC dedicates at least half the chapters to CL-specific topics. 03:27:11 Arelius: the similarities are basically only the use of parens and linked lists 03:27:20 even symbols work a little differently 03:27:27 Hmm 03:27:36 and I'm not sure you can take the CAR and CDR of NIL in scheme 03:27:38 adlai when i try the ',symbols i get -> Vars is not a list of symbols: '(|test-COL-1| |test-COL-2|) 03:27:57 Guthur: it's quoted 03:27:58 Guthur: why don't you paste what you have? 03:28:10 Guthur, my last message was " Guthur, it shouldn't, if you do (m-v-b ,symbols ...)" 03:28:19 without the quote 03:28:35 what is without the quote? 03:28:36 I suggested ',list before I realized you were using them for multiple-value-bind 03:28:54 rahul: nah, you can't that raises an exception 03:29:09 Arelius, right, you can do that in CL 03:29:41 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBB202.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:29:42 also I think the condition system is different. CL's condition system relies heavily on dynamic bindings. 03:29:49 you know, I'm starting to think that CL and scheme are more different than Java and C++ 03:29:54 Which is nice, but specifically not something I exactly have to worry about too much, given that CL is more lax in that regard 03:29:58 rahul without the quote it gets evaluated as a function 03:29:58 Adlai: scheme doesn't have a condition system 03:30:05 Guthur: huh? 03:30:10 Adlai: how do you mean? 03:30:16 Guthur: m-v-b doesn't evaluate the list of bindings 03:30:26 Arelius, well, what do you mean by "raises an exception"? 03:30:35 Adlai: it's undefined behaviour. 03:30:44 i'll have to paste 03:30:53 Adlai: Throws an error generally. 03:31:03 Arelius, right, but what does "throws an error" mean? 03:31:15 ie, can you handle that, or does your program dump core? 03:31:36 diracdelta [n=diracdel@adsl-76-247-105-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:42 Adlai: I think it generally depends on the implementation, but all systems I've seen allow that to be handled 03:31:52 but without explicit handling it dumps core. 03:32:03 Adlai: What did you mean by condition system? 03:32:11 CL is very different in this regard, then. 03:32:17 heh 03:32:20 Arelius: just read PCL 03:32:23 Arelius, check out http://l1sp.org/pcl/handler-bind 03:32:33 rahul: doing that 03:32:50 Arelius: you should probably read the whole thing because CL is so different from scheme 03:32:57 Ohh I see 03:33:07 rahul: Yeah, I probally will 03:33:38 Guthur pasted "Symbol list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90410 03:33:49 numbers are mostly similar between CL and many scheme implementations 03:34:06 but there are plenty of scheme implmenetations that would not be able to do math in a CL compliant way 03:35:19 Wait, 'nil won't give me the symbol? 03:35:55 <_3b> Guthur: ",(append" suggests you don't understand ` very well 03:35:56 (symbolp 'nil) => T, surely? 03:35:58 Guthur, do you know about ,@ ? 03:36:01 clhs ,@ 03:36:01 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ,@. 03:36:07 !!! 03:36:33 clhs 2.4.5 03:36:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_de.htm 03:36:35 gah 03:36:36 _3b indeed very new to lisp in general, and macros especially 03:36:38 clhs 2.4.6 03:36:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 03:37:00 <_3b> ` isn't macro specific (probably one of the more common uses for it though) 03:37:06 Guthur, read the latter five times before each meal every day for a month if you want to write macros. 03:37:59 nyef: Dunno, was just reading PCL. 03:38:28 and don't use ,. unless you REALLY understand it 03:38:38 there may be nicer ways to do the append but that works its the other part that doesn't 03:38:42 <_3b> ,(append '(ignorable) type-list) -> (ignorable ,@type-list) 03:39:45 is there any reason to use ,. ? 03:39:48 the default for prefix is NIL? 03:39:54 Adlai: yes, rarely 03:39:59 I generally think that macro-expansion time is the time to go cons-happy. 03:40:01 Adlai: well, no reason to NEED it 03:40:02 rahul i know that is to change 03:40:24 <_3b> don't forget to mix in some ., just to make things more confusing :) 03:40:34 Guthur: and you're interning into a random package 03:40:41 _3b: :D 03:41:02 of course ., is the same as ,@ 03:41:14 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 03:41:24 <_3b> is it? i thought it would work like ,. except only on last entry in a list 03:41:27 (,@ is not the same as ., however) 03:41:37 _3b: right, it's a subset, not equality relationship 03:41:54 <_3b> i meant i thought it would share structure 03:42:05 _3b: both will do the same thing 03:42:16 or at least, both are allowed to do the same thing 03:42:20 <_3b> ,@ ? 03:42:27 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-74-209-25-128.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:01 yes 03:43:10 `(a b .,c) === `(a b ,@c) 03:43:11 it's allowed to work the same way as ,. 03:43:19 er ., 03:43:20 grr 03:43:24 but `(a b ,@c d) =/= `(a b .,c d) 03:43:28 rahul it says default is the current package 03:43:29 *rahul* watches as his had spins 03:43:37 Guthur: whatever "current" means 03:44:03 Guthur: consider if someone calls your macro with a qualified symbol name 03:44:03 well its in a file that has (in-package ...) at the top, is that meaningless in this context? 03:44:22 Guthur: it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the symbols you are munging 03:45:00 Guthur: and why on earth do you have a values-closure instead of a values-form? 03:45:12 rahul: that's how he represents vectors... 03:45:24 uh ok 03:45:40 indeed 03:46:07 ok, I'm really confused by everything you try to do 03:46:12 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBAF4B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:17 Guthur, have you put your code up anywhere? I'd be interested to see if I can get squirl to work with it. 03:46:18 it's probably a waste of my time to try to help you 03:46:22 <_3b> ah, right... i was misremembering what ,. does, that's what i get for not using it :p 03:46:37 (since you say that it's faster than squirl's vec.lisp) 03:46:41 adlai not yet i'm still experimenting 03:47:04 it's just very cheap to create vectors 03:47:18 Doubt it's any cheaper than a real vector. 03:47:50 a specialized 4-element vector is very small 03:48:03 closures are not necessarily small 03:48:15 this one is 03:48:20 really? 03:48:21 what does that even mean? 03:48:29 what is "this one"? 03:48:36 Guthur, are you still using single-floats? 03:48:48 adlai nah changed to doubles 03:49:00 do you create it like (defun make-vec (a b c d) (lambda () (values a b c d))? 03:49:03 it was no difference in performance actually 03:49:06 I'm assuming SBCL, you have: Closure header, function pointer, 4 values. Since you're using doubles, each value is a boxed double. 03:49:50 i tried a lisp vector its not quick 03:49:59 yeah, you're probably using 2x as much space as a specialized simple-array of 4 doubles 03:50:02 On x86-64, that's 6+8= 14 words, instead of 6. 03:50:30 its access and creation thats important, size has no real relevance here 03:50:46 Sorry to be asking this before I've gone through PCL, but if functions and variables have different namespaces how do I call a variable that contains a function? 03:50:54 Guthur: you have failed test #1 of performance 03:50:56 I'm no compiler hacker but I think it's faster to allocate 6 words than 14 03:51:05 rahul in what sense? 03:51:13 Guthur: the speed of a function must be worse than the space of a function 03:51:23 Arelius, you use the special form FUNCTION, or the readmacro #' 03:51:26 clhs function 03:51:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 03:51:33 thx 03:51:35 Adlai: it's not allocating, it's the actual _writing_ 03:52:00 rahul, true, allocating is probably just adjusting the free pointer 03:52:02 Guthur: If really your benchmarks tell you that the closure representation is faster for creation and access than a vector, you're not measuring what you think you are. 03:52:07 (at least it is on CCL, I think) 03:52:17 Guthur: access is probably something like 20% slower because you're slightly more likely to span more than one cache line 03:52:20 Adlai: allocating once is still faster than allocating 5 times. 03:52:26 Adlai: exactly 03:52:35 yes, and that 03:52:54 but it's lost in the noise compared to the initialization of the data structure 03:53:03 rahul: depends. 03:53:03 pkhuong, oh right, this representation would have to allocate the closure structure, 4 double-floats, and then write a bit of assembly 03:53:11 the free pointer will probably be in L1 cache most of the time 03:53:29 or actually, I hope it's in a register on x86-64 03:53:39 does SBCL also compact the heap? 03:53:58 Adlai: yes, unfortunately. 03:54:22 right, so it's 4 extra pointer chasings when you GC 03:54:53 pkhuong, I'd have thought it's a good thing. What GC/allocation strategy would you prefer? 03:54:57 Adlai: write assembly? I'd hope not. 03:55:04 Guthur: I haven't managed to figure out a single case where your solution is faster 03:55:11 Adlai: copying for the nursery, mark/sweep later. 03:55:21 s/assembly/"code"/ 03:55:26 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:55:44 rahul will i'm just going to check 03:55:48 well* 03:56:13 Guthur: have fun wasting your time 03:56:55 rahul i enjoy programming so its not a waste of time for me 03:57:26 people who "enjoy programming" tend to write the worst code 03:57:42 becuase they're writing code for the sake of code, not for whether it's useful or efficient 03:58:36 but I guess telling you that won't stop you from doing it, purely because you're enjoying writing more code 04:02:07 well with a simple element multiple by scalar, create a new vector, and assign it is twice as slow 04:02:39 Guthur: and how do you measure that? 04:02:42 that is the use case for games you create lots of small vectors and do simple mathematical operations on them 04:03:04 its quite a naive test admittedly 04:03:09 i'll post 04:03:16 Guthur: dude, I can guarantee that these simple cases are exactly where the overhead of boxing, closures and other high level concepts are worst. 04:03:26 seriously 04:03:35 *pkhuong* bets on unintended lazy evaluation. 04:03:39 Guthur, make sure that you're creating the vectors properly 04:03:46 rahul: one pint next time we meet? ;) 04:03:49 adlai how so 04:04:11 pkhuong: I'm not taking that side of the bet haha 04:04:53 Guthur, just as an example, don't allocate garbage initial-elements to pass to make-array 04:05:17 although I guess using dynamic-extent might alleviate that 04:06:11 i was doing (vector (* (elt vec 0) scalar) (* (elt vec 1) scalar)), bad? 04:06:25 Guthur: yes. You're not using specialised vectors. 04:06:49 oh good god 04:06:50 make-array? 04:07:14 map-into 04:07:28 that's probably fastest, right? 04:08:09 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:08:12 jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:08:17 (map-into '(simple-vector (4) double-float) (lambda (x) (* x scalar)) vec)) 04:08:23 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:37 <_3b> rahul: 2d vectors, not 4 04:08:52 *_3b* isn't sure if that would matter here for which function to pick though 04:08:57 blarghl 04:09:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:09:08 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 04:09:55 yeah, so change the 4 to 2, but then the performance difference will be less 04:10:05 we were talking about 4 before 04:10:41 <_3b> does sbcl optimize :initial-contents (list ...) in make-array ? 04:10:48 rahul: map or map-into. 04:10:56 _3b: since 1-2 months, yes. 04:11:03 nikodemus wouldn't use it in SB-CGA otherwise (: 04:11:20 rahul no i only said 4x4 matrix are the max a game will want for transformation 04:11:20 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@32.135.80.154] has quit [] 04:11:24 <_3b> cool, i remembered it being discussed, just wasn't sure it got implemented :) 04:12:45 And I'll release a quick example of how to abuse capture in compiler-macros for specialised calling conventions. 04:12:46 _3b: does nikodemus have a sb-cga.git you cloned from or did you just make your own from the tarball? 04:13:00 <_3b> tsuru: both :p 04:13:17 <_3b> tsuru: i cloned from tarball, he posted a repo within last few days 04:13:24 *_3b* will rebase soon 04:13:45 _3b, if they're released, a merge is a better idea 04:13:47 <_3b> well, maybe not rebase 04:13:50 <_3b> right 04:14:00 i see. I haven't seen the url in yet... care to enlighten? 04:14:00 <_3b> i'll try to figure out if i can combine them cleanly 04:14:18 <_3b> http://github.com/nikodemus/sb-cga 04:14:56 <_3b> initial commit in my tree seems to match the hash of one of his commits, so hopefully should combine OK 04:16:04 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:11 _3b, better pick your favorite mergetool :P 04:17:01 <_3b> Adlai: i might just kill the repo and start over, even if it means hassle for users, just to have a clean fork 04:17:44 merges aren't that bad... 04:18:02 _3b: are the differences mostly lisp-implementation checking? 04:18:34 <_3b> yeah, mostly 04:18:45 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 04:19:55 <_3b> Adlai: not too worried about the merging part, since i don't think there should be much conflicts 04:20:05 with map-into how does one specify the output best, that code above wont work with the double-float type specified 04:20:19 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:20:20 it tries to do the multiple on it, strangely 04:20:22 (map-into (make-array 4 :element-type 'double-float) ...) 04:20:28 ah 04:20:51 yeah, mine should have been map, not map-into 04:20:59 <_3b> pkhuong: does that make-array do any initialization of the array? 04:21:02 rahul: less likely to get open coded as you want. 04:21:12 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:25 _3b: on the heap? no. On the stack, you always get a rep sto loop to clear the contents for now. 04:21:42 pkhuong: hmm. why not have vector and array map operations convert to map-into and compile that way? 04:21:57 rahul: the transform isn't that smart... 04:22:17 but my first method performs better by doing (vector (* (elt vec 0) scalar) (* (elt vec 1) scalar)) 04:22:32 pkhuong: is it a mtter of hasn't been done yet or is there something more fundamental? 04:22:45 rahul: not done yet, also not sure it's such a good idea. 04:22:51 Guthur: then unroll the loop. That's orthogonal to the representation. 04:23:42 pkhuong: what would make it a bad idea? 04:23:57 pkhuong: map still needs to do a make-array... 04:24:38 rahul: space, not encouraging trust in a magical compiler. 04:25:26 well, that transform can be conditionalized on space 04:25:44 but I don't think optimizing the array creation is a magical thing 04:26:57 pkhuong, magical compilers are pretty neat :D 04:27:13 Adlai: no, they make it extremely hard to write efficient code. 04:28:29 pkhuong how should i unroll the loop, macro? 04:28:34 its pretty huge 04:28:57 huge? You have 2 elements. 04:29:01 pkhuong, in what way? If you write efficient code, would the compiler actually make things worse? 04:29:32 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:22 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 04:30:31 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:30:55 Adlai: there's a bit of that, but mostly that magic compilers have complex performance models. You easily end up expecting more magic than there actually is. 04:31:38 So yes, you can make sure to write explicitly efficient code and not depend on the magic, but then you might as well use a simpler compiler. 04:32:12 which loop are you talking about, i carry out the operation with a different scalar 10,000,000 times to get a time 04:32:16 its that loop i thought you meant 04:32:47 heh 04:32:56 no, you don't want to unroll that one 04:33:04 the iteration across the vector 04:33:53 (make-array '(2) :element-type 'double-float :initial-contents (list (* (elt vec 0) scalar) (* (elt vec 1) scalar)) 04:34:15 pkhuong, true. I guess that's why we have optimization qualities, to at least give a bit of control over the magic. 04:34:27 and declare the type of the input vector as a (simple-array double-float (2)). 04:34:43 rahul ya tried that 04:35:04 and (optimize speed), of course. 04:36:38 Until we see the benchmark code, this is probably all moot though. 04:37:23 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:27 *Adlai* saw some benchmark code a few days ago that was getting lazy-evaled. 04:37:55 Adlai: I wouldn't be surprised if that was still the case. 04:38:07 Retardedpope [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:28 what is the difference between setf and setq? 04:38:38 pkhuong, it -sounds- like something else if the performance gap is a factor of two 04:38:47 Retardedpope: setq is a subset of setf 04:38:47 Retardedpope, let's see what specbot has to say 04:38:47 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B994.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:38:50 clhs setf 04:38:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 04:38:59 clhs setq 04:39:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm 04:39:05 looks like one letter! 04:39:06 rahul: so I can always use setf? 04:39:07 Adlai: why? The actual operation is fairly simple. 04:39:10 Retardedpope: yes 04:39:14 adlai ya i hope i have got rid of that 04:39:24 rahul: ok, thank you 04:39:41 Guthur: include reading the elements in the benchmark 04:39:43 You *hope*? You don't know whether your code does lazy evaluation or not?! 04:39:52 well, that too 04:40:01 Guthur, what's the performance difference now? Can you paste your benchmark code? 04:40:31 i'm adding a declaim to the array function to give it a fair go, 04:40:43 inlining, type info 04:40:46 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-72-146.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:08 wgl: herep 04:41:17 sellout: herep 04:41:33 And hello everyone else. 04:41:53 ugh 04:42:01 hi Peter 04:42:21 rahul: why "ugh"? 04:42:23 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 04:42:28 hey gigamonkey 04:42:32 I can't make my Set Slot Value command act nicely when it gets called via a presentation-to-command translator 04:42:42 Yo Adlai 04:43:00 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has quit [Client Quit] 04:43:02 ah thats better 04:43:04 I want a nice prompt like the one you get if you run set slot value and then click on a slot 04:43:10 it wasn't the type 04:43:12 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 04:43:13 gigamonkey, you gave another talk at Google recently, right? 04:43:30 Adlai: Yup on Thursday. 04:43:45 I'll accept a lack of text formatting for now, but there's this black box at the front of my output 04:43:52 well actually it was, but it was the initial variable i created, it hadn't all the element type information specified 04:43:58 it seems it matters alot 04:44:16 Guthur: yes... it's constantly accessing that vector 04:44:38 Guthur: it accesses that vector as often as it writes to the new vector, in fact :) 04:44:45 gigamonkey, is there a video? I searched yesterday, but just found a talk from a few years ago about PCL (which was interesting, too) 04:44:53 but it is righting to that variable 04:45:00 writing* 04:45:15 its the equivalent of *= 04:45:32 Adlai: I think it takes them a week or two to put the video online. They're supposed to tell me when it's ready and I'll tweet about it when I know. (peterseibel on Twitter; some jerk who's only ever tweeted three times took 'gigamonkey') 04:45:41 oh, you expect type informaiton to be inferred across side effects? 04:45:48 SBCL punts if there's a side-effect 04:46:49 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:46:51 oh! that black box is the cursor not being erased hrm 04:47:00 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-27-109.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:47:03 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-27-109.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:47:20 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:47:20 gigamonkey: perhaps catch you tomorrow? 04:47:37 hmm, I wish McCLIM respected the :prompt arg to ACCEPT 04:47:50 wgl: Perhaps. Dunno how much time I'll be herding the tyke. 04:47:50 Adlai: an instance of misunderstood magic in a compiler. 04:47:52 wgl: what TZ are you? 04:47:59 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:48:51 *gigamonkey* wishes Common Lisp hadn't done timezones backwards making him permantly confused 04:48:52 gigamonkey: central; (when doing radio i am UTC); typically in saddle 0800-2200. 04:49:11 Guthur: but I guess you're ignoring all the compiler notes and expecting to get optimal performance 04:49:20 So it's coming up on 2400 for you? 04:49:26 gigamonkey: my ham radio buddies simply quote all times zulu; no zones, no daylight. 04:49:27 Guthur: I don't see how you're acting sensibly. 04:49:31 No, 22:49 now. 04:49:33 rahul i forgot to change it is all 04:50:01 i was surprised at the massive jump though 04:50:08 pkhuong, yep... SBCL still does a lot of good magic, though :) 04:50:09 change what? 04:50:20 Yeah. I wish I could figure out how to put two clocks with different timezones in the toolbar thingy at the top of my screen. 04:50:22 it's a note you read, not chang 04:50:23 e 04:50:36 gigamonkey: set the TZ env var differently for the other one 04:50:47 oh, how are you launching them? what toolbar is it? 04:51:27 gigamonkey, use stumpwm and gain The Power Of Lisp! 04:52:23 Guthur pasted "test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90411 04:52:50 i forgot to specify the type info at the make-array 04:52:51 rahul: the Ubuntu "panel" or whatever it's called. 04:53:08 gigamonkey: gnome? 04:53:30 gigamonkey: does it need to be on the panel or are you fine with clicking on the clock ? 04:53:33 I think you can run gnome panel applets from the command line 04:53:34 gigamonkey, if you right-click and navigate some menu, I think you can control the shell command that starts the app 04:53:44 yeah 04:54:02 tsuru: no, I just want to be able to glance at it. No clicking. 04:54:04 Guthur: that still won't work well. You're probably hitting performance oddities with denormals too. 04:54:13 you should be able to do that, too... not sure how to add two time applets tho 04:54:16 And that's not where the interesting code is. 04:54:34 What's your other test function? How are vector* and whatever-it-is* defined and declaimed? 04:55:21 Guthur annotated #90411 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90411#1 04:55:36 speed 1?? 04:55:37 wtf 04:55:42 *rahul* facepalm 04:55:58 Guthur: and what's the alternative you're comparing with? 04:56:00 you're ASKING for pslow code? 04:56:13 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has quit [Client Quit] 04:56:14 it in the same file so the speed is the same for both 04:56:30 the array wins out now though 04:56:32 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-233-255.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:46 <_3b> Guthur: doesn't help you compare the speed of them compiled with speed 3 though, which would be the actual useful part 04:56:46 the array one is more optimizable 04:56:53 but this explains why you weren't seeing notes 04:57:11 you asked to not optimize for speed, so it's not giving you notes where it can't optimize 04:57:12 <_3b> might also want to declare the size of the array for vector* 04:57:12 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.11] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:57:18 rahul ya i was wondering what notes you were going on about 04:57:27 lol 04:57:50 the ones you'd get if you actually tried to benchmark optimized code... 04:57:58 (simple-array double-float) doesn't do what you want. 04:58:18 Guthur, for SBCL "spew", just do (declaim (optimize speed)), clear your repl with C-c M-o, and then recompile it. 04:58:20 <_3b> also, declare the return type better 04:58:28 or simple-array, actually. You want (simple-array double-float (2)). 04:58:58 yeah, it's not using optimized array access that way 04:59:09 you need 1-d simple-array for optimized access 04:59:27 at the least (simple-array double-float (*)) 04:59:42 worse, it's using an out of line ELT. 05:00:08 well, if he declares that it's 1-d, shouldn't it inline elt? 05:00:38 But it's not, currently. 05:00:39 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 05:00:44 right 05:01:25 how do you say its 1d beyond providing a one dimensional size 05:01:42 (simple-array double-float 1), or (simple-array double-float (*)) 05:01:59 prog-butlast 05:02:12 and not (2) 05:02:13 rullie_ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405664.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:02:15 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has quit [Client Quit] 05:03:23 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:03:30 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 05:03:39 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.206.53] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:05:52 Adlai: +1 for C-c M-o, but (declaim (optimize speed)) is not recommended for casual coding 05:06:07 fusss, not casual coding -- compiler spew! 05:06:09 Okay, I may be about to make myself feel old--who here has never used a printer that fed the paper through via holes in the sides of the paper? 05:06:19 Bonus points if you have no idea what I'm talking about. 05:06:29 gigamonkey: huh? 05:06:32 Well, I have used the paper 05:06:37 gigamonkey: you don't need to be that old. 05:06:40 gigamonkey, I actually saw paper like that once 05:06:41 I probably still have some. 05:06:45 err, that young. 05:07:07 but I guess people born in the 90s probably never saw that unless in special situations? 05:07:09 Guthur annotated #90411 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90411#2 05:07:11 gigamonkey: holes for paper? are you talking about receipt printers that take rolled paper? 05:07:34 fusss: :| 05:07:37 fusss, scale that up a bit. 05:07:42 Think reams. 05:07:56 gigamonkey: like a dot matrix printer? 05:08:02 gigamonkey: People who've worked with telephony hardware. 05:08:05 sykopomp, my elementary school had that 05:08:05 I had an ImageWriter I 05:08:06 *fusss* remembers going to his dad's office and collecting Telex ribbons 05:08:18 *sykopomp* had one in his house when he was little. 05:08:23 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:08:58 good ol' 9 pin dot matrix 05:09:08 rahul: Sure. Or a daisy wheel printer. 05:09:16 aaah the old sound of the dot matrix...loudest computer part I ever heard 05:09:21 it's all about the two passes with 9 pins 05:09:35 How do I copy an array? There is no copy-array.... 05:09:46 minion, tell Retardedpope about Alexandria 05:09:47 Retardedpope: make-array with initial-contents 05:09:48 Retardedpope: direct your attention towards Alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/Alexandria 05:09:53 I'm writing a S.F. novel for NaNoWriMo that takes place in a world where computers have become very expensive. 05:09:58 Retardedpope: deja vu? 05:10:01 Retardedpope, get that, then use ALEXANDRIA:COPY-ARRAY 05:10:17 rahul: initial-contents can only be a sequence 05:10:21 It occurs to me that someone with an antique (quad-core) machine, might have a *really* old printer because they'd be easier to maintain than a laser printer. 05:10:37 stassats: hmm 05:10:46 or a squence of sequences, right? but yeah hrm 05:10:53 right 05:11:00 rahul, the trick is to make a displaced array, then "adjust" it away 05:11:00 gigamonkey: show me a mobo that supports quad cores and has a parallel port. 05:11:15 heh 05:11:18 according to CLHS, when you undisplace an adjustable displaced array, the elements get copied 05:11:40 Adlai: you're still left with a non-simple-array 05:11:54 pkhuong: well, the futuristic hackers trying to save the planet have some chops. They'll jury-rig something. 05:12:14 Adlai: then again, a 2d simple-array in sbcl won't get much optimization 05:12:27 pkhuong: mine does 05:12:29 Ralith here took a drill press to a video card! 05:12:37 pkhuong: that is, it has a header for attaching a parallel port 05:12:59 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:17 if they can find an old dot matrix surely they can find the parallel to USB adapter cords... 05:13:20 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:13:35 rahul, I guess you could put a typecase in your copy-array and preserve "simplicity" 05:13:46 -!- luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:46 tsuru: parallel <-> USB isn't reliable, especially with old devices. 05:13:54 luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 05:14:27 <_3b> well, presumably you could have some old computer running as a print spooler too 05:14:50 Adlai: I'd also add keyword args for the features, if no keyword passed, preserve the original array's property 05:14:59 <_3b> maybe another in the middle to convert from gigabit ethernet to 10base2 or something, etc :) 05:15:23 *Adlai* says to rahul, on behalf of the folks at Alexandria: "Patches welcome!" 05:15:26 gotta do the 10base2, yeah 05:15:32 _3b: ... I'm fairly certain the point where it's simpler to build a custom printer is much before that. 05:15:42 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:15:57 Adlai: when I have a need for a copy-array I'll improve it :) 05:16:31 a 100baseT to 10base2 converter is just a hub anyway 05:16:46 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405258.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:55 especially since the 100baseT port will just downgrade to 10baseT 05:17:14 I could see someone with only a teletype to a workstation from this era (with the serial port). 05:18:02 I could probably go for a nice vt220 05:18:13 I used to have a wyse 50, I think 05:18:20 -!- segoe [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-anfqbtixnxmqajuk] has quit ["Page closed"] 05:18:44 but if computers are so expensive, how much is the network? 05:18:45 took it from my high school because we only cared to have 1 there and we got 3 of them donated 05:18:55 network access 05:19:08 rahul how do i get those compiler messages you were talking about 05:19:29 tsuru: sneaker-fido-net. 05:19:50 Guthur, for the (prog1 n (incf n))th time, (declare (optimize speed)) 05:20:01 Guthur: optmimize for speed 05:20:10 (declaim (optimize speed) 05:20:11 In that (astoundingly improbable) scenario, probably computers will be sponsored by murky cyberpunk corporations 05:20:21 ya but where are the messages 05:20:22 (incf n 2) 05:20:24 i have done that 05:20:28 ages ago 05:20:29 pkhuong: ugh... that would be hellish :D 05:21:14 Guthur, it could be that SBCL can't optimize your code any further 05:21:32 Guthur: are you using slime? 05:21:40 k, ya slime 05:21:41 -!- xxoxx [n=ooxoo@tor/regular/xxoxx] has quit [] 05:21:54 tsuru: very good bandwidth, though. news and email would work just as well. 05:22:16 blogs would be just as good. 05:22:16 Or pigeons. 05:22:27 *_3b* votes for mesh networks made from telescopes pointed at the activity LEDs on old NICs 05:22:36 Guthur: it should C-c ` 05:22:48 And the awesome bandwidth would be good for file sharing. 05:23:51 *rahul* typed half of 2 sentences there 05:23:58 but it works 05:24:10 Jafet: so the basic theory is that Moore's Law has come to a crashing halt and energy prices have gone through the roof. 05:24:27 gigamonkey: futuristic hackers saving the planet? sounds like fun 05:24:40 According to a google techtalk there is an Asian group of people right now who mail hard disks of wav files to each other 05:24:42 So computers are as good as they're gonna get and now you have to convert watts to CPU cycles as efficiently as you can and it's still really expensive. 05:25:08 gigamonkey, I can imagine things other than computers being affected by energy prices... 05:25:27 Jim Gray's project to map the stars used to mail whole computers--it was easier than just shipping the disks. 05:25:30 Jafet: indeed. 05:25:41 gigamonkey: so we get EC2 and sweat shops full of people sweating on stationary bikes feeding a dynamo? (: 05:25:58 I think I'd just take up archery 05:26:16 gigamonkey, so humans blotted out the sun to destroy the sentient AI and the 1.0 Kardashev figure of energy is inaccessible? 05:26:56 Jafet: well, since computing is so hard to come by the old extractive industries are keeping everybody else down by monopolizing computing time for their own evil purposes. 05:27:14 Hard to design new wind turbines or fancy solar powered gizmos if you don't have access to computers. 05:27:18 <_3b> i guess sheeva plug formfactor didn't get popular? :) 05:28:20 Chaotic evil or corporate evil? 05:28:33 Corporate evil. 05:28:40 so Lawful evil. 05:28:42 I guess. I haven't written the whole thing yet. 05:28:52 Nah, they probably make the laws 05:28:56 Well, they sort of write the laws ... 05:29:39 *_3b* would have called 'corporate evil' neutral evil 05:29:41 so is this some existing story or are you writing fiction now? 05:29:54 Fiction. http://www.nanowrimo.org/ 05:30:09 Just for fun, probably. 05:30:35 Meh. You can't put art on a schedule. 05:30:38 does lisp make an appearance ? :D 05:31:03 I hear that lisp appears in SEL. And NeXT. 05:31:14 <_3b> Jafet: art is easier if you have a habit if productivity though, which is more the point of nanowrimo than art :) 05:31:16 Jafet: Yeah. But it's better to spend a month and have a craptastic first draft that you can then work on at your leisure than to never get around to starting your great work of art. 05:31:28 Jafet: SEL? Scheme, Pascal and C++, IIRC. 05:32:11 tsuru: hasn't yet. But I'm only 22,082 words in. ;-) 05:33:52 certainly sounds like fun 05:34:51 Yeah. I'm enjoying it. It's also really changed how I read novels now--i find them much more interesting now that I've actually tried to write one myself. 05:47:51 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-184-80.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:47:57 -!- jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:47:57 Is there a function that takes a list as an argument and returns the mean and the standard deviation? 05:48:20 Retardedpope: Not in the language standard. 05:48:31 Such a function, of course, exists in a Platonic sense. ;-) 05:48:32 or, one that returns the mean and one that returns the standard deviation.... is fine 05:49:02 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:14 minon: paste 05:49:18 minion: paste 05:49:18 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 05:49:20 -!- dang` [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 05:50:11 gigamonkey pasted "Some statistics code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90412 05:50:24 Retardedpope: that paste is for you. 05:51:41 Retardedpope: also ALEXANDRIA, which I think you were linked to earlier, has a standard deviation function 05:52:15 gigamonkey: thank you 05:56:41 reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-192-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:57:14 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-192-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:57:17 Retardedpope: welcome. No guarantees, it breaks you get to keep both bits, etc. 05:57:29 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.84.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:58:02 gigamonkey: seems to be working 05:58:13 so I have no complaints 05:59:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:59:15 stassats [n=stassats@78.37.136.242] has joined #lisp 06:00:17 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:00:35 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 06:05:33 -!- fatalnix1995_ is now known as fatalnix1995 06:08:41 gigamonkey, watching the 2nd half of your PCL talk now :) 06:08:48 *Adlai* only had time to watch ~25 minutes earlier 06:09:23 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:09:36 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:15:53 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:23:12 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 06:23:56 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 06:25:47 vng [n=user@123.20.75.42] has joined #lisp 06:32:13 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 06:35:41 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:48:41 -!- beach` is now known as beach 06:48:45 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@32.177.241.14] has quit [] 06:48:59 Good morning. 06:50:00 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has quit [Client Quit] 06:50:14 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 06:51:38 *fusss* is guessing RT runs everywhere and people should have it. seems easier than 5am 06:52:49 just basic unit-testing for a database library 06:53:23 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:28 btw, how do people hookup their unit testing tools to asdf'? a la asdf:test-op? 06:55:50 morning beach 06:56:41 morning 06:57:05 *fusss* going with lift 06:58:39 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp185.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:35 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has quit [Client Quit] 07:02:15 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:03:26 beauty [n=beauty@83.231.54.132] has joined #lisp 07:05:02 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-2-193.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:05:38 morning 07:09:37 -!- prip [n=_prip@host234-124-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:59 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:10:59 Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 07:12:06 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@67.170.34.23] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:13:15 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-34-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:29 fusss: what do you mean how 07:13:30 ? 07:13:33 just defmethod 07:13:54 rahul: lift looks ok too, don't wanna reinvent unit testing. 07:14:34 <_deepfire> fuss, grep test-op asdf:*central-registry* -rI 07:17:36 _deepfire: cheers 07:19:11 <_deepfire> You probably could just meta-point your way through asdf:perform, though. 07:19:32 <_deepfire> err, when you load *world*, indeed 07:20:04 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 07:21:16 ska` [n=user@124.157.196.17] has joined #lisp 07:21:37 -!- Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:25:44 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-2-72.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:25:44 -!- ska` [n=user@124.157.196.17] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:25:52 beauty: New here? 07:26:18 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-71-111.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:27:06 beaut [n=beauty@83.231.42.116] has joined #lisp 07:29:41 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-72-146.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:53 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-25-128.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:33:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:36:44 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:37:00 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 07:38:21 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:32 <_deepfire> Wow, while importing hyperspec-lookup I got this from CVS server: "AuthReply: I HATE YOU" 07:45:29 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:29 leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:50:50 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:51:01 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:51:45 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.103.103] has joined #lisp 07:52:05 -!- beauty [n=beauty@83.231.54.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:53:35 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has joined #lisp 07:57:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:00 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:58:51 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:59:14 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:59:21 -!- beaut is now known as beauty 07:59:36 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 07:59:47 hello 08:02:25 -!- vsync [n=vsync@69.55.236.109] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:05:15 joga [i=joga@83.150.90.112] has joined #lisp 08:09:51 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:14:40 <_deepfire> There should a way to reload slime without restarting emacs. 08:15:02 <_deepfire> *should be 08:17:15 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:17:50 jl_2 [n=jl_2@97-122-153-155.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:30 you could always write that 08:19:42 -!- diracdelta [n=diracdel@adsl-76-247-105-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:20:40 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:21:34 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:21:36 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 08:24:37 ska` [n=user@ppp-61-90-15-17.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:27:03 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.200] has joined #lisp 08:31:39 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:32:36 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has joined #lisp 08:33:05 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 08:36:52 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:37:19 redblue [i=star@ppp033.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:38:19 saruccio [n=saruccio@91.80.243.74] has joined #lisp 08:41:00 -!- _8david` [n=user@pD954087F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:27 -!- saruccio [n=saruccio@91.80.243.74] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:42:16 yahooooo0 [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-34-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:56 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:45:05 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 08:47:08 -!- scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:50:22 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:54:18 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-34-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 08:55:07 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:07 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:03:21 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:15:14 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-35-10.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:28 pipa [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-57.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 09:16:21 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:16:34 Mathieu [n=user@cm36.sigma98.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 09:17:07 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:16 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8285.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:05 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:19:46 lexa_ [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has joined #lisp 09:20:14 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest90272 09:23:14 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 09:23:44 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 09:26:49 -!- ska` [n=user@ppp-61-90-15-17.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:28 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06e51d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:32 good morning 09:31:05 who here made shuffletron? 09:31:15 its pretty cool 09:31:23 -!- Guest90272 [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has left #lisp 09:31:37 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:32:47 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has joined #lisp 09:35:36 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:41 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:27 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.75.42] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:44:19 holycow: Looks like hefner did. 09:44:35 aha 09:45:02 not here for the kudos today 09:45:23 Not right now. It's early in the morning for him. 09:49:07 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:53:30 Axius [n=ade@92.85.209.53] has joined #lisp 09:54:52 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:55:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:32 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.209.53] has quit [Client Quit] 10:02:45 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 10:02:54 plutonas [n=plutonas@92.195.152.115] has joined #lisp 10:03:11 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-233-255.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:03:11 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:05:03 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:05:43 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 10:07:21 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.189.70] has joined #lisp 10:09:50 Axius [n=ade@92.85.209.53] has joined #lisp 10:10:49 -!- smaxarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:12:31 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:42 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.209.53] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:23:13 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has quit [Client Quit] 10:29:43 zoldar [n=zoldar@95.50.59.66] has joined #lisp 10:33:24 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:34:09 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:36:17 -!- beauty [n=beauty@83.231.42.116] has quit ["YourCodeSucksException"] 10:41:35 george__ [n=george@189.107.145.150] has joined #lisp 10:42:17 -!- deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.166.144.233] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:46:42 -!- yahooooo0 [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-34-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:47:09 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-34-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:56 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:50:07 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:55 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-159.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:54:41 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-204-132.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 10:57:06 -!- pipa [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-57.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:52 -!- nunb [n=nundan@94.160.235.91] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:36 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:58:48 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.137.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:48 -!- kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:04:04 s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-234-101.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:12 So, it seems that ccl doesn't build on Snow Leopard without 10.4 SDK support, does this sound right to anyone? 11:04:18 *correct 11:06:08 Arelius, you might have more luck with this question on #ccl or in the openmcl-devel mailing list 11:06:19 thx 11:07:31 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:11:59 kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:13 -!- kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:13:47 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:10 pipa [n=pipa@213.49.126.137] has joined #lisp 11:19:00 kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:20 -!- kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Success] 11:21:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:23:28 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-178-225.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:25:27 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 11:27:58 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 11:28:42 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:14 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 11:30:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:31:02 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:31:28 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:34:27 -!- pipa [n=pipa@213.49.126.137] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:07 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:29 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:45:03 kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:03 -!- kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:46:01 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-126-110.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:48:34 -!- Mathieu [n=user@cm36.sigma98.maxonline.com.sg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:48:50 Mathieu [n=mlegrand@cm36.sigma98.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:50:22 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 11:51:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:58 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:54:53 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:58:59 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:00:35 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 12:02:55 is there something as straightforward as MacRuby + HotCocoa to do OS X Cocoa programming with an implementation of Common Lisp (besides LispWorks which is *very* expensive) 12:03:20 minion, tell Mathieu about CCL 12:03:22 Mathieu: look at CCL: OpenMCL is now called Clozure Common Lisp (CCL). http://www.cliki.net/CCL 12:04:12 -!- borism_ [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:05:14 kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:20 -!- kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:05:28 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:05:48 ok thanks, having a look (btw http://trac.clozure.com/ccl maybe a better link for the bot) 12:06:22 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93776.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 12:06:35 Mathieu, the bot fetches CLiki pages automatically, although you can override that by manually specifying terms 12:07:27 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:07:35 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:07:38 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 12:09:22 borism [n=boris@213.35.232.204] has joined #lisp 12:11:18 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@208.87.217.194] has quit [] 12:12:01 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-159.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 12:14:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:18:48 kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:50 -!- kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:58 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:58 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:23:00 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.103.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:23:04 hi. 12:24:56 would anyone like to see a visual/art/game-ish thing in lisp? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dOoP2R3Lhk 12:26:23 an explanation would be nice ;) 12:27:17 tron like game? 12:27:24 heh. looks like pacman with a bad childhood. :) 12:27:40 ah, not tron :P 12:27:45 i have some ideas written up for the game. hold on i'll paste a link. 12:28:14 i'm doing this challenge thing where you design and implement a game in seven days 12:28:53 ramus`_ [n=ramus@99.23.141.176] has joined #lisp 12:30:14 dto pasted "excerpt from recordmydesktop debian/changelog" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90424 12:30:32 oops., wrong channel. 12:32:32 http://github.com/dto/rlx/blob/master/vong/vong.org <---- joga 12:33:33 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@82.181.201.111] has joined #lisp 12:34:13 schoppenhauer [n=christop@p5B0BE708.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:39 dto: hmm, k :) 12:35:42 joga: the point is to maneuver the red-trail-leaving guys into the black holes, without losing your puck into a black hole 12:38:22 kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:34 -!- kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:39:21 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.253.83] has joined #lisp 12:39:22 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.105.147] has joined #lisp 12:39:33 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 12:41:15 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-202-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:46:24 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FE7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:53 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-147-120.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:19 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:53:38 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:55:12 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:56:00 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-160.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:56:53 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.200] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:57:48 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-212-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:52 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp033.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:02:28 mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:10 kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:40 -!- kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:06:55 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:42 kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:16 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:27 -!- kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:13:48 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-212-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:14:12 kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:17 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has joined #lisp 13:14:38 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:48 hi dto! 13:15:06 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:15:07 -!- kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:16:25 hi xach 13:16:28 what's been up? 13:16:36 what do you think of the video 13:16:46 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:50 i haven't seen it yet, glad to see some blog updates in the past week or two 13:19:23 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@82.181.201.111] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:19:35 cool :) 13:21:39 there is a LOT going on behind the scenes in other parts of the lisp games world too 13:21:48 kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:49 including physics stuff 13:23:56 dto: is it mostly bindings or is there some pure lisp stuff? 13:24:25 you'd have to talk to the devs but i think it is a lisp port of some other library, and much pure lisp 13:26:29 -!- kidd [n=kidd@159.Red-79-147-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:51 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FE7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 13:29:18 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 13:32:36 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:34:25 nice 13:35:33 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D2EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:08 nipra_ [n=nipra@117.195.100.252] has joined #lisp 13:39:24 dto, Xach, pure CL -- a port of the C library Chipmunk Physics 13:39:29 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 13:39:33 it's not -quite- done/bugfree yet, though 13:39:56 The last step is a good name. 13:41:04 http://sykosomatic.org/lisp/squirl.ogv <= the latest demo 13:42:05 Adlai: so cool!!!! 13:44:19 that is pretty neat 13:44:38 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-2-72.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:45:57 it's also much faster now than you see in that video, thanks to help from pkhuong and _3b` 13:47:00 now we can have like, pseudofluids and abstract polygons colliding in our simulationist lisp abstract platformers 13:47:21 *Adlai* is glad to see prominent CL developers running git repos! (from planet.lisp.org ) 13:47:34 Xach: now you have to watch my video!! 13:47:36 you watched his 13:48:14 :) 13:48:18 dto, that's not "my" video... sykopomp put the entire thing together 13:48:27 oh. 13:48:40 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:48:40 well whatever :) 13:49:06 *Xach* watches 13:49:11 I just helped with turning context structs into closures and things like that 13:49:17 :| 13:54:42 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:52 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.105.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:13 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:55:52 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:57:07 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 13:59:02 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 13:59:14 ejs [n=eugen@85.238.113.23] has joined #lisp 14:06:33 bgs100 [n=ian@h168.212.89.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:44 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:03 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:12:49 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:37 nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.97.2] has joined #lisp 14:21:14 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.62] has joined #lisp 14:25:00 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-116-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:05 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@117.195.100.252] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:33 mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:25:45 -!- Kolyan is now known as Kolyan[away] 14:26:06 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:26:18 -!- ejs [n=eugen@85.238.113.23] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:26:19 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:26:52 ejs [n=eugen@85-238-113-23.wifi.tenet.od.ua] has joined #lisp 14:27:40 Axius [n=ade@92.84.24.229] has joined #lisp 14:27:50 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 14:28:25 davazp [n=user@156.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:26 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:20 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.24.229] has quit [Client Quit] 14:33:21 -!- rullie_ is now known as rullie 14:34:31 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:27 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:04 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:38:05 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F344.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:20 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:38:21 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:38:55 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.68.159] has joined #lisp 14:39:40 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:43:07 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.97.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:08 nipra_ [n=nipra@117.195.97.0] has joined #lisp 14:43:13 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:43:27 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-116-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:48:16 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:49:05 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:49:08 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:49:29 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:49:34 Good afternoon! 14:49:35 cvandusen [n=cvanduse@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:52 o/ 14:55:01 hey beach 14:55:41 hi! 14:56:00 nikodemus, is my hotpatch ok? 14:56:04 (the new one) 15:01:05 vick [n=heh@ip-141-31-188-221.nat.selfnet.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:05 on a quick look, pretty good 15:03:29 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 15:04:12 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:35 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has left #lisp 15:04:54 -!- ejs [n=eugen@85-238-113-23.wifi.tenet.od.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:05:37 thanks 15:05:44 I'll make it into a patch, then 15:05:57 ejs [n=eugen@85-238-113-23.wifi.tenet.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:06:23 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:06:35 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:39 one thing: (subtypep '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 32) (*))) => NIL, T 15:07:05 either i misunderstand your comment about the order of the array cases, or the comment is bogus 15:09:36 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:08 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:10:13 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:10:51 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@117.195.97.0] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:11:02 ok, so maybe the comment is bogus 15:11:15 let me try again 15:12:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@85-238-113-23.wifi.tenet.od.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:12:31 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:39 must have done something wrong before 15:12:40 thanks 15:13:39 isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1279784755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:14:32 Hi! Is it legal to do this (defun cl-user::myfn () ... ) or should I always use in-package? 15:15:42 yes, it is legal 15:15:59 in most cases it is not good styke, however 15:16:02 thankyou! 15:16:06 style, even 15:16:12 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:16:51 Ah yes, I need a function for a format control and format looks in cl-user but I want to keep the code with all the other stuff that will use it 15:16:51 wentbackward: do you understand the difference? 15:17:21 better to use ~/youpackage:foo/ 15:17:23 nikodemus: no :( 15:17:34 (in format, that is) 15:18:14 Yes, It's actually coming in from a config file given to users, and thought that was a bit ugly for them 15:18:24 putting things in cl-user is icky. you should consider cl-user to be the private playground of each individual programmer: no-one should put anything in cl-user for anyone else 15:18:58 Right. I can probably use a nick on the package and make it more readable 15:19:47 It is legal AND good style when you're defining a function for use by FORMAT 15:20:23 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:25 (at least at ITA it is -- CL-USER is not used for anything here) 15:20:47 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 15:21:07 Fare has a point -- there are certainly exceptions. if this is a library, it is bad wrong. if this is an application where there are know unknown people putting their own stuff in cl-user, it's ok 15:21:27 It's highly unlikely to be a problem in the environment where this code will end up 15:22:04 Yes an app generating charts for an authoring system 15:22:06 Fare: ...except by people working at the repl. sooner or later someone will do (defun print-foo ...) in *slime-scratch* or repl, and breaks the application and cannot figure out why... 15:22:23 hi fare 15:22:30 nikodemus, well, at the repl, we quickly end up doing a (in-package :qres-core) anyway. 15:22:43 true 15:23:24 it's all contextual -- but i will blame you when i come across a library that puts functions for format in cl-user :P 15:23:59 So long as I don't release something undefined into production, I'll stick with corrupting cl-user on this one 15:24:10 Thankyou 15:24:41 wentbackward, note that you can use a custom toplevel which goes straight into your own FOO-USER package 15:24:54 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:30 While I'm at it, I'll use the same generator as m-mat 15:26:56 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-212-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:19 For those of you who speak japanese: http://lambda.bugyo.tk/cdr/mwl/index.html 15:28:04 Adlai: Would that work, as the format spec's say it will only look in cl-user 15:28:06 nikodemus, I take the blame (and did it myyyyyyyy way) 15:28:09 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-212-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 15:28:50 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:31:00 but actually I think I'm ok managing the env so long as I'm not actually breaking anything. (there are worse things in my code than this) 15:31:54 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:33:17 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:49 *_deepfire* hooks a web interface to the buildbot 15:36:52 wentbackward: thanks for your emails 15:36:55 <_deepfire> I still need to figure out how to lay out the page.. 15:37:18 wentbackward: i actually have a few routines that, given a rectangle, will align text to it in a variety of ways. but it's not quite ready. 15:37:47 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 15:38:00 Xach: cool ... I shall look forward to the next release! 15:38:06 <_deepfire> methinks packages go left-to-right, and test phases (pull upstream, client fetch, client load, client test) top to down, so it fills out naturally.. 15:38:09 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:38:47 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:39:57 Xach: Currently using this to generate graphics for a research authoring platform. Vecto is nice to use! 15:40:29 cool, glad to hear it 15:43:21 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:43:49 Vecto works well on CCL too, in case you've not tried it! 15:44:02 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.145.150] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:58 is there a reason why SBCL sources seem to avoid loop? 15:45:10 has anybody had a problem where SLIME dies randomly on ,restart and keeps incrementing the number in the slime-repl buffer's name? 15:45:35 even when I kill any slime-related buffers before starting a new slime 15:45:42 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.67] has joined #lisp 15:46:48 there, it just did it again 15:47:08 happens on both CCL and SBCL 15:47:12 just a silent death 15:47:54 last time I had silent death, I had a handler-bind that was exiting on error... oops. 15:48:33 *Adlai* hasn't done anything fancy with slime, though 15:48:39 (solution: have the main function setup this handlers and immediately delegate to something else, call the something else from the REPL) 15:48:42 aside from slime-fancy, of course 15:49:39 george__ [n=george@189.107.180.9] has joined #lisp 15:52:11 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["Restarting emacs to rejuvenate slime"] 15:53:28 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 15:54:33 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:56:08 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:57:06 I have compiled sbcl from clbuild. Is there a way to start lisp from clbuild and make it execute a command afterwards? 15:57:37 ah --eval seems to work :) 15:57:40 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:59:18 -!- isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1279784755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:00:40 wentbackward: I don't remember trying it, but it's pretty much 100% portable pure CL as far as I can tell. 16:02:52 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:20 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:04:20 (reading log) 16:05:07 Fare: mostly because of build-order issues, i believe 16:07:16 that might have been why, but it doesn't make sense 16:07:26 when you're compiling the host, you're using the host's LOOP 16:07:37 when you're compiling the target, you're using the cross-compiler's LOOP 16:07:43 there's no build-order dependency there 16:07:55 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 16:08:21 -!- kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has left #lisp 16:08:24 (one good reason for avoiding LOOP is that it's very easy to write a loop that is formally undefined, and so you then end up breaking the build on some platform) 16:09:49 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:10:00 hi 16:10:01 Sikander, memo from LiamH: Fix is in repository now. 16:11:49 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:17:18 Is there a standard macro that would let me write something like (doeach (x '(1 2 3)) (lambda (x) (+ x 1))) and get back (2 3 4)? 16:17:38 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.67] has quit [] 16:18:19 there is a standard function that does that 16:18:59 instead of asking "something like", why not ask a question about exactly what you want? 16:20:29 by "something like", I mean "for some value of 'doeach'". 16:21:20 nikodemus, should I avoid using loop in my sbcl patch to target-random? 16:21:39 should I avoid using (loop :for ... :do) keywords in loops? 16:21:42 ok, so what's the point of your x in the first argument list to doeach? 16:22:24 hmm, I guess it's not needed. 16:22:26 (the answer is "no", because no-one would write a macro that required a completely redundant symbol to call it) 16:25:30 What is the standard function you mentioned earlier? 16:27:26 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:28 Fare: i don't think that style is used anywhere in sbcl, so yes, using plain symbols is preferable imo 16:28:14 clhs: mapcar 16:28:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 16:28:18 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:22 Pavitra: have a look at that 16:29:07 leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:29:10 minion: tell Pavitra about pcl-book 16:29:11 Pavitra: direct your attention towards pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:29:52 I've been using that as my primary reference actually. 16:30:20 have you read it? 16:30:40 because i'm 99.99% sure it covers MAPCAR pretty early on... 16:30:45 not cover to cover, but I looked in the obvious places like chapter 7 16:30:50 I must have missed it. 16:31:01 go cover to cover. it's worth it 16:31:04 ok 16:33:17 Pavitra: In this particular case, you can do (mapcar #'1+ '(1 2 3)) to obtain what you want. 16:34:00 Thank you, mapcar is exactly what I'm looking for. 16:34:46 Pavitra: What made you want to learn Lisp? 16:36:08 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:38:52 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:02 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:42:10 guys, is there an official list of what should be considered a "keyword" in common lisp? (for syntax highlighting purposes) 16:42:27 mishoo, any symbol in the keyword package. 16:42:39 or do you mean, symbols in the common-lisp package? 16:42:52 SLIME may have stuff for you 16:42:56 Fare: yes, I mean standard stuff such as "defun" 16:43:46 mishoo: (map()(lambda(n l)(princ(subseq (format nil "(~{~A~#[~:; ~]~})~%"(let(r)(do-external-symbols(x :cl)(push x r))(sort r #'string< :key #'string))) n (+ n l)))(finish-output))'(875 949 8 6010 4863 371 11)'(4 3 5 5 3 2 2)) 16:43:54 heheh 16:44:33 Fare, oh this again? :) 16:44:57 Adlai, an older, simpler one to help Mishoo 16:45:13 *REASTAOTHER FLO DD-ER 16:45:14 ? 16:45:20 What would be the point of such an "official list"? 16:45:26 Adlai, you implementation isn't compliant. 16:45:32 aye, pretty cool, but it doesn't answer the question ;) 16:45:37 (lisp-implementation-type) => "SBCL" 16:45:41 (lisp-implementation-version) => "1.0.31.32" 16:45:44 mishoo, it does 16:45:47 Sikander: not necessary "official" but anyway, a list of stuff that I should highlight in a syntax-highlighting editor 16:46:09 any symbol that's interned or so, I guess... 16:46:18 Adlai, did you play games with the common-lisp package? 16:46:23 Fare, I get the same on CCL 16:46:24 or any symbol that's fbound? 16:46:25 I don't think so? 16:46:30 Hi everybody, I've got a problem with finding a solution. I'm suppose to write a parameter-less function which returns stream of powers of 2 and there musn't be a helper function. 16:46:31 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 16:46:41 ( http://www.ymacs.org/ that is, and I want to add a Lisp mode ) 16:47:29 Fare, I also get that same result when I run `sbcl --no-sysinit --no-userinit' 16:48:13 did you copy/paste correctly? works for me on clisp, sbcl, ccl 16:49:12 hmmm 16:49:30 ahh newlines could be an issue, since my client is splitting that in the middle of a format string 16:49:43 mishoo: typically, I think you want to highlight symbols that are interned, no? That's dynamic. 16:49:49 mishoo, are you going to handle qualified::symbols ? 16:49:52 (so to speak) 16:50:19 Fare: I don't know, but why not? 16:50:35 anyway, I can't provide a close integration with Lisp such as Emacs, since it's written in JavaScript 16:50:41 -!- vick [n=heh@ip-141-31-188-221.nat.selfnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:01 Probably you can get a good list of symbols with do-all-symbols... 16:51:02 StanleyD: sounds like you will have to keep track of the state somehow 16:51:06 but at least to make it a bearable editor for lisp.. it should have basic syntax highlighting and indentation support 16:52:06 javascript lisp editor? 16:52:16 over the web? 16:52:24 mishoo ^ 16:52:25 you got a problem with that? ;) 16:52:34 heheh 16:52:47 Guthur: yes 16:52:52 no sikander i don't really have problems with anything people want to do just surprised 16:52:54 jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet209-84.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 16:53:07 though if i hang round here to long i might develop it 16:53:09 hehe 16:53:10 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-34-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:53:14 who's to provide a javascript backend to SBCL? 16:53:18 heheh 16:53:19 StanleyD: What is a "stream" in this context? 16:53:34 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:38 And when will there be a ruby backend? 16:53:42 *Sikander* ducks 16:54:12 beach, a "stream" is a string of length 6. 16:54:18 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 16:54:23 Hmm, maybe I should've said c++.... 16:54:24 *sigh* 16:55:39 mishoo: do you just intend to highlight stuff from the clhs then? 16:55:52 to only highlight stuff from the clhs... 16:55:55 Sikander: yes, something like that 16:56:15 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:19 Then you can have a look at the clhs for a list. 16:56:25 (also, it would be nice to know what macros expect a &body and what some &rest, as indentation can be adjusted) 16:57:18 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.44.224] has joined #lisp 16:57:27 then what's wrong with going through the clhs? 16:58:15 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F344.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:36 Sikander: I looked through it, but couldn't find a list; I could manually go through all pages and collect stuff, but for some reason I'd like to avoid this. :-) 16:59:00 mishoo: (other silly question) why would you want to edit lisp without the ability to evaluate your forms? 16:59:50 Sikander: I described by reasons for starting it here: http://www.ymacs.org/#How-did-it-start- -- the idea was in fact to edit some cl-who templates ;) 16:59:53 Hmm, didn't it have some "master index"? I bet you can just grep/sed/awk your way through 17:00:05 but anyway, it could be made to evaluate forms, by sending them to the server and get back the answer 17:00:24 ok. 17:01:56 mishoo: you could follow Fare's suggestion, of taking a look at SLIME. 17:02:17 I will, thanks 17:02:18 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 17:02:30 StanleyD pasted "stream" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90433 17:02:55 beach: stream is an pair of evaluated expresion and expression to-be evaluated when needed .. 17:03:10 beach: also see ^^ 17:03:59 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:06:45 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.189.70] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:11:12 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:11:26 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 17:11:39 -!- Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has quit [] 17:11:49 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 17:12:02 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229113190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:17:05 thoolihan_ [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:00 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774745.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:22:24 Adlai: bullshit. You outcommit me in SquirL. 17:22:25 >:( 17:25:45 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:26:20 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:26:53 Fare: protip "git format-patch -1" prepends your commit message to the patch 17:27:12 need I re-send? 17:27:41 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:28:03 nono 17:28:07 this is fine 17:29:06 just for future reference -- when you submit like that, the chances are you get the bonus pleasure of seeing your prose in the cvs logs :) 17:29:56 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:31:24 (reading log) I always thought that one of the reasons SBCL avoided LOOP was that CMUCL didn't use it because it wasn't in the standard when CMUCL was first written and SBCL sortof inherited that. 17:31:28 ok 17:32:07 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 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[n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 flatline0 [n=flatline@z166195.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@spirit.georgix.info] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-152-85.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 hdurer_ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ztxalpxmngghvknv] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 benny [n=benny@i577A8F04.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 oudeis [n=oudeis@IGLD-84-229-230-111.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 18:03:07 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:03:11 nikodemus hehe i just wanted to do that 18:03:29 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:29 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 18:03:29 krappie [n=brain@67.15.74.93] has joined #lisp 18:03:29 tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-29.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:03:29 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 18:03:35 (one can always express this using satisfies, but i'd like for the compiler to be able to reason about it as well...) 18:03:57 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405664.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-27-109.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-74-209-25-128.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 tufflax [n=tufflax@1-1-8-11a.ang.sth.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 18:03:58 yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 18:03:58 EinarDogfin [n=plyryan@pool-71-113-49-75.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:58 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:58 esden [n=esdentem@repl.esden.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:07 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:28 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:57 george [n=george@189.107.188.71] has joined #lisp 18:06:54 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:09:34 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:26 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:11:24 george_ [n=george@189.107.205.194] has joined #lisp 18:12:56 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:15:49 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:11 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:17:02 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 18:18:36 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:20:28 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 18:20:29 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.180.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:09 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-34-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:11 mrSpec [n=Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 18:26:09 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:13 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:22 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:26:38 I think I'll go against the flow and *not* use ORMs in his next app... more problems caused than solved 18:27:00 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:27:38 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774745.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 18:27:38 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:41 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:51 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774745.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:28:20 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774745.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:28:24 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-46-123.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:28:51 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774745.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:29:21 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774745.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:53 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774745.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:30:07 -!- george [n=george@189.107.188.71] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:52 Axius [n=ade@92.82.83.220] has joined #lisp 18:31:56 p_l: Doubt that's much against the general flow - a lot of small apps, especially in PHP, are likely still programmed without the assistance of an ORM. 18:32:01 p_l, what will you use for data persistence? 18:32:12 Hunh. Allowing integer type specifiers as well as literal integers for dimensions in array and vector type specifiers? 18:33:35 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-2-10.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:35:55 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:38:42 Fare: I'm thinking of going the stored procedure way 18:38:55 TDT: let's say that PHP is not the best example to look for :) 18:38:58 in a sql database, still? 18:39:12 Fare: for the projects that will use SQL database 18:39:17 tau351 [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 18:39:30 Is it possible to undefine a function? 18:39:36 p_l: What type of project is this? 18:39:48 while many other stores are interesting, sometimes RDBMS fits the best 18:40:39 TDT: right now I've got real estate search engine that would be much nicer if I used sprocs from start, abstracting internal GIS capabilities 18:40:45 josemanuel [n=josemanu@148.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:41:24 p_l: ah, you must be using SQL Server 2008, am I right? As I recall they recently added the whole geo-computing thing recently. 18:41:34 TDT: PostgreSQL 8.4 18:41:50 How can I avoid "note: doing signed word to integer coercion (cost 20), for: the first argument of CHECK-FIXNUM" ? 18:41:59 though I might use an "orm" like Sequel. I didn't expect how much it matured lately 18:42:25 wow didn't know something like that existed for postgresql, interesting. 18:43:02 TDT: there's some built-in GIS indexing stuff, but the whole thing gets fun when you add PostGIS 18:43:04 You could take a look at SQLAlchemy if you're using python - it's extremely mature and one of the better ORMs available. 18:43:10 TDT: Ruby 18:44:24 ah, hm..yeah, can't say I've used ruby too much - just a bit in rails so far. My workplace is transitioning to using ruby on rails..so yeah, I gotta learn it sometime :) 18:44:46 TDT: unfortunately, ActiveRecord is probably one of the worst ruby ORMs ;-) 18:44:54 agreed 18:45:01 We've ran into so many issues with activerecord so far 18:45:02 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:24 For the heavy lifting, we use stored procedures for a lot of stuff and modified activerecord to deal with it pretty well. 18:45:26 TDT: what I'm currently using will end up being Rails 3, probably, or at least close enough to be portable 18:46:02 Are you using ruby for fun on your own, or is this part of your business? 18:46:22 TDT: for payment (which is actually several months late) 18:46:56 my *own* business will probably use CL and/or Erlang + JS 18:47:37 nice. Yeah, for web development anything I still fall back currently on Django - haven't got to the point in CL I can really do more than learning in it yet. 18:48:36 well, what I'm planning would use JS for UI, with CL mostly in form of application server 18:48:36 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:57 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:50:15 yeah. The things such as web services, and database interaction are the areas I'm having the most issue with at the moment. 18:50:35 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:50 Been looking at CL-SQL a bit, seems pretty good but I haven't made it work yet. web services..seem much harder to find. 18:53:12 I was considering declaring stored procedures inside CL (use something like parenscript but to emit PL/Scheme code) 18:54:01 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:54:02 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:55:05 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:48 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:45 hmm..dunno, the only issue I see with doing that is you can run into an issue with other systems accessing the same data - that and one could argue that too much business logic is stored in the database. 18:59:54 depending on what the stored procedures did of course. 19:03:16 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@148.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 19:04:07 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:04:37 -!- tau351 [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:04:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:40 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-72-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:05:41 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:14 I'm more thinking towards storing "business logic" inside various software modules, with a set of "standard" helper sprocs + various individual procedures designed for certain modules 19:06:18 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 19:06:28 but leaving the core logic inside CL modules 19:07:11 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:39 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@95.50.59.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:11:19 helheim [n=cra@dyn-89.136.51.50.cj.upcnet.ro] has joined #lisp 19:11:29 -!- helheim [n=cra@dyn-89.136.51.50.cj.upcnet.ro] has left #lisp 19:11:49 Yeah, that makes sense. I know the hospital on campus does that a lot - using stored procs for a lot. One big benefit of stored procs is that it's great for security and roles. 19:11:59 and good for sharing data between various systems. 19:12:06 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-2-193.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:12:28 What we've tended to do in my department is use views to tie separate systems together. Not sure how postgresql handles that. We use rails with MSSql. 19:14:39 Postgres handles Views just fine, iirc 19:14:50 btw, snippet from part of my just written code 19:14:53 /geocode=\&q=(.*)\&g=/.match(page.css("#rightcol .actions a")[1][:href])[1].subst!('+',' ') 19:15:08 it all makes sense, really 19:15:22 oh noes, regex on the weekend 19:15:57 tsuru: I was grabbing post code from this: http://local.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=CV6+5FF&g=CV6+5FF&iwloc=addr 19:17:44 s/subst/gsub/ 19:18:01 centipedefarmer [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:30 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:48 hah problem 11 of project euler done...what a pain of a problem to do 19:19:53 say i need a little help with my new slime/sbcl setup ion ubuntu. i downloaded both, installed sbcl, put slime in ~/.emacs.d/site-lisp/slime, added that directory to my load-path in my emacs init, but when i M-x slime I'm, getting an error, "package "CLC" not found" 19:20:21 my CL implementation of the problem is horribly inefficient too...*sigh* rewrite or go on. 19:20:50 centipedefarmer: you need to set your implementation as well. Like sbcl, or whatever....one sec 19:20:55 centipedefarmer: did you install through apt-get? 19:20:58 yeah, i've done that 19:21:19 tsuru, I think I may have an existing apt-get installed version of slime, perhaps I should remove it 19:21:57 TDT, I setq inferior-lisp-program sbcl in my emacs init too, sorry i didn't mention that 19:22:04 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-188-103.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:22:04 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-188-103.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:20 centipedefarmer: that or find what is depending on the common-lisp-controller 19:22:22 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:22:55 tsuru, common-lisp-controller is what CLC is I take it? 19:23:18 yeah 19:23:33 centipedefarmer: I believe so. 19:23:36 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:23:40 I'd try to install that as well, or go into sbcl manually and check to make sure you can require it 19:23:51 just before it goes into the debugger I get ; loading #P"/usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/swank-loader.lisp" 19:24:08 ugh... CLC 19:24:11 so I think that's what's trying to require CLC 19:24:46 Looks like it may be ubuntu's version of swank 19:24:47 p_l: agreed 19:24:48 http://www.cliki.net/common-lisp-controller 19:25:00 A system for installing Common Lisp libraries and source on http://www.cliki.net/Debian, Fedorahttp://www.cliki.net/edit/Fedora, http://www.cliki.net/Gentoo and Ubuntuhttp://www.cliki.net/edit/Ubuntu linux systems. 19:25:20 ah, hm. 19:25:33 maybe I don't need ubuntu's version of that 19:25:40 So you can probably just remove what you installed through apt-get, then reinstall manually 19:25:40 ericjames [n=ericjeld@pool-71-126-42-170.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:59 centipedefarmer: I like getting slime and swank from version control myself... but that's what my gentoo days did to me I probably 19:26:59 as I recall I ran into some issues through the versions distrbuted through apt-get here..for slime/sbcl/swank, but I can't recall what specifically I ran into issues with..but I also went to the source versions as a result 19:27:51 ok, i apt-get removed ubuntu's version of slime and swank, still getting the error. now the error is that the aforementioned swank-loader.lisp doesn't exist...still looking for it in /usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/ :/ 19:28:10 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.83.220] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:28:34 what is trying to load that... 19:29:16 maybe sbcl set itself up to load that when I installed it, since I had the ubuntu versions then? 19:30:23 not sure 19:30:56 centipedefarmer: ubuntu sbcl comes with clc, afaik 19:31:15 redblue [i=star@ppp060.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:31:29 also, at some point you had to uninstal debian/ubuntu slime/swank with --purge, otherwise they left bits behind 19:31:35 ok, I didn't install ubuntu sbcl, I downloaded the binary 19:31:47 ok 19:31:58 maybe I should have got the ubuntu versions of everything :D 19:32:15 then it's probably a leftover bit from debian slime. does "apt-get uninstall slime --purge" help? 19:32:35 much better to get the upstream versions of everything... 19:32:36 apt-get removing slime did leave cl-swank though, it gave me a message that apt-get autoremove would remove that, which I did 19:32:54 remove it manually with --purge, maybe? 19:33:32 this is getting to be an FAQ. "How do I get rid of all traces of CLC?" ... 19:33:32 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:36 i can't apt-get remove a package that's already been apt-get removed, even if I'm adding --purge to it this time :D 19:34:30 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:46 heh, "apt-cache search clc" shows, among other things, clc-intercal, the INTERCAL compiler :D 19:34:54 centipedefarmer: if that path that's causing and error isn't in your .emacs, check /etc/emacs configs 19:35:04 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:17 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:03 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:41 I just checked my emacs load-path, /usr/share/common-lisp/... isn't in there 19:37:53 i think it's hard-coded into something 19:38:37 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-178-225.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:46 this form get shown right away: (progn (load "/usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/swank-loader.lisp" :verbose t) (funcall (read-from-string "swank-loader:init")) (funcall (read-from-string "swank:start-server") [... and some other stuff...] 19:39:31 the top of the buffer when i M-x slime 19:39:51 prip [n=_prip@host135-123-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:40:04 /usr/share/common-lisp/source contains common-lisp-controller and cl-asdf 19:40:19 i think I'm going to have to try a whole other tactic here 19:41:24 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-2-10.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:57 maybe if i apt-get install sbcl, instead of the one I just downloaded, it will get all the other stuff I need 19:42:04 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:27 centipedefarmer: but you'll probably get an old sbcl 19:42:36 truew 19:43:19 centipedefarmer: does sbcl work if you just launch it in the terminal? 19:43:27 nikodemus, yes 19:43:49 centipedefarmer: does (require :asdf) and (require :swank) work? 19:43:59 in the terminal, that is 19:45:15 asdf does, swank doesn't 19:45:57 what does it say? 19:47:52 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.97.0] has joined #lisp 19:48:26 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=518021 # see, you're not the only one... 19:48:27 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:49:21 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:48 (that is, even if your symptoms may be different, i strongly suspect this is related to what you are seeing) 19:51:05 (i have ~10min that i can use to help you troubleshoot this, but then I'm out for the night) 19:52:34 tsuru's trying to help now 19:52:40 thanks nikodemus 19:53:37 ok, good luck :) 19:53:39 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:31 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-34-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:59:50 evening 20:00:12 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-150.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:00:24 nikodemus: by all means extend array type specifiers (and list type specifiers, why not? :-) 20:00:28 just don't break anything 20:00:42 (and add lots of test cases: e.g. in map/make-sequence/coerce :-) 20:00:59 for bonus points extend array types with fill-pointer &c information 20:03:37 pipa [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-247.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 20:03:40 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:08 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:45 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@95.35.154.158] has joined #lisp 20:13:57 Pony time? I'd like to have an extended function type specifier where you can specify a derived result type 20:14:47 I want portable access to type inference, even on implementations that don't do it! 20:15:00 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@pool-71-126-42-170.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:15:05 I want not to have to write a labsheet for my lecture on Tuesday 20:15:10 *nikodemus* has no ponies to spare 20:15:51 I also want the squirl demo to not end with an Unhandled Memory Fault at 0x2C... 20:16:38 but i was wondering if adding notion of min/max dimensions to array-type would be sane, or if should be expressed as (and (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8)) (sequence-lenth 4 12)) or something? 20:18:21 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:18:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@IGLD-84-229-230-111.inter.net.il] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:18:41 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:20 I think you'll tie yourself in knots supporting a sequence-length type specifier 20:20:12 the array-type is the natural place to put that information 20:20:13 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:25 you will need an unparsed representation 20:20:45 it might be that (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) ((integer 4 12))) is the best way to do that 20:21:28 more parentheses ftw 20:22:50 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:50 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.97.0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:50 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet209-84.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:04 <_deepfire> Hmm, I wish read-sequence moved the fill-pointer. 20:25:13 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.97.0] has joined #lisp 20:27:18 <_deepfire> Are there functions which affect fill pointer/adjust the array more than by 1 (other than (setf fill-pointer), that is)? 20:27:45 ;; number of solutios 20:27:45 ;; number of solutios 20:27:45 nothing comes to mind 20:27:48 oops 20:27:50 sorry 20:28:26 <_deepfire> mikodemus, was "nothing comes to mind" for me? :-) 20:28:33 <_deepfire> ouch, nikodemus, sorry! 20:28:33 yes :) 20:28:54 you can do (setf (fill-pointer s) (read-sequence ...)), of course 20:29:34 hmm, wait. i think FORMAT accepts strings with fill pointers as the first argument 20:29:35 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:41 never used that, don't remember the details 20:29:41 adjust-array? 20:29:45 with-output-to-string? 20:30:26 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:37 <_deepfire> nikodemus, Krystof, thanks! 20:30:48 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:31:55 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 20:32:06 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:15 benny` [n=benny@i577A8F04.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:32:20 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zvsydddreueizlri] has joined #lisp 20:32:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A8F04.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:33:35 <_deepfire> Hmm, read-sequence seems to obey fill-pointer limit, actually.. 20:34:48 I wonder if an implementation is allowed to extend type specifiers from cl at all 20:36:29 Isn't it cleaner to provide an identically named symbol with different home package like sb-ext:simple-array? 20:37:34 -!- Kolyan[away] [n=nartamon@95-24-184-80.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:38:01 francogrex [n=user@60.39-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:40:01 clhs 4.2.2 20:40:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_bb.htm 20:40:19 Has some specific permissions and limits for implementation extensions of the type system. 20:40:45 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zvsydddreueizlri] has quit [] 20:40:53 george__ [n=george@189.107.206.93] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 20:41:27 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:41:47 aack` [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:41:48 Wrt extensibility it would have made sense to define, e.g., destructuring-bind to have an implicit &optional as default, and if you want exact structure you'd have to use something like &fixed at the end 20:42:59 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:43:32 hey guys. I was reading Art of MOP, and I saw an example of metaclass that allowed yet another initialize-instance method to be called when the object was created. Why would you create metaclass like persistent-class rather than make your class inherit from persistent-class? 20:43:55 with multiple inheritance it would be easy to do 20:44:34 is the whole point of metaclasses to have yet another "dimension" of method combination? 20:46:26 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp060.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 20:46:33 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has quit [Client Quit] 20:46:35 puchacz: perhaps there are some methods for one metaclass that just shouldn't be there for the classes deriving from another 20:46:55 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [] 20:46:58 tcr: Another argument is based on 1.6 "An implementation can have extensions, provided they do not alter the behavior of conforming code and provided they are not explicitly prohibited by this standard." 20:47:10 Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has joined #lisp 20:47:12 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 20:47:33 stassats: adlai told me to thank you. So... thank you :P 20:47:35 puchacz: it's not so much about method combination 20:47:50 rahul: go on 20:47:56 -!- aack` [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:47:56 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 20:48:01 puchacz: the metaclass is more about determining slot definition metaclasses 20:48:22 that's probably the most common reason for using a metaclass 20:48:43 it's also useful for changing the superclass linearization method 20:48:53 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@95.35.154.158] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:59 rahul: what does it mean and what can it achieve? 20:49:07 there seems to be a typo in clhs 4.2.2 (defstruct on line 3) 20:49:35 puchacz: custom slot definition classes allow one to have different behaviors for slot-value-using-class, primarily 20:49:50 serichsen: there's a list of errata somewhere 20:50:46 http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications 20:51:52 danlei [n=user@82.113.106.80] has joined #lisp 20:51:55 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:52:56 nyef: It does alter the behaviour of programs parsing type specifiers 20:53:16 Ah, macros? 20:54:03 rahul: is slot-value-using-class someting like slot-value? 20:54:07 rahul: I can't find it 20:54:10 puchacz: it's the MOP version of it 20:54:17 puchacz: it's in AMOP... 20:54:22 I'll argue against that on the grounds that they type specifiers provided to such programs are logically disjoint from what the implementation might provide. 20:54:35 nyef: I do some type parsing in my testing infrastructure 20:54:50 rahul: so, if I want to do tricks rather than just store slot values in memory, a metaclass is a way to go, right? 20:55:05 luckily (coincidentally) it wouldn't be affected by the way Krystof proposed 20:55:14 puchacz: sure 20:55:19 rahul: thanks 20:55:55 Hrm... I think I'm confused. 20:56:06 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:10 And I think I'm losing interest. 20:56:27 rahul: one more thing, if I ask defclass to generate accessors for me, is every accessor using slot-value internally? 20:56:53 puchacz: yes 20:57:26 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@67.170.39.104] has joined #lisp 20:57:38 however, you have to have overrides in place before the class is finalized for them to be respected 20:57:38 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.205.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:57:44 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:57:58 otherwise, the implementation may optimize away the call to slot-value and even slot-value-using-class 20:57:58 rahul: I don't understand the latter 20:58:36 vick [n=heh@ip-141-31-188-221.nat.selfnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:47 if the class is finalized and there are no overrides in between, SBCL, for one, will do a direct access to the slot storage location in the instance 20:59:10 instead of having all those extra function calls in between just in case your intent was to override s-v or s-v-u-c 21:00:00 rahul: I see..... and, just by browsing the code, is initialize-instance :around, that is specialised on my-metaclass, called when defclass .... :metaclass my-metaclass executed? 21:00:58 Tordek [n=tordek@host15.190-137-250.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:01:13 puchacz: actually, it might not be 21:01:23 it might be only shared-initialize 21:01:54 because you may have an existing forward-referenced-class for that... and then change-class would be called, which calls shared-initialize 21:02:06 rahul: ok, thanks. I will read on AMOP (good idea?) 21:03:21 puchacz: yes, any details will be clarified there 21:06:37 very good. hopefully, if edi has time, we may soon see a hunchentoot release that invokes the debugger 21:10:13 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.68.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:01 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.68.159] has joined #lisp 21:11:47 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-126-110.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:12:58 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:30 luis`: I sent a patch to CFFI-devel today, but haven't seen it come through. Any idea? 21:15:57 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:18:25 rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.11.90] has joined #lisp 21:18:31 antifuchs: you mean, if an error occurs in the processing of a web request, it would pop up a debugger from my repl? 21:18:52 if you're running it from a debugging-acceptor, yes. 21:19:41 my change adds an error handling policy protocol (actually, a new class and two defgenerics) which provide the old default and the behavior that's preferable when developing 21:20:11 -!- Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:20 that sounds interesting 21:20:40 hmm 21:20:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:52 context oriented programming would be a much better way to achieve this 21:21:06 Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has joined #lisp 21:21:36 might be nice to offer a layer that can be activated to enable debugging globally if contextl is available 21:21:37 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:43 right 21:21:51 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-188-103.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:21:58 the way things are now, you can make your acceptor subclass that allows you to do this (-: 21:22:15 heh 21:24:18 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 21:26:00 -!- francogrex [n=user@60.39-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:24 so, I hope this will reset Xach's blog-inactivity timer somewhat (: 21:27:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:41 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-43-87.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:31:32 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 21:32:22 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8285.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:47 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8285.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:40 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:34:21 udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:34:24 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.44.224] has joined #lisp 21:34:49 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has left #lisp 21:37:42 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229113190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:39:26 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 21:40:48 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8285.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:02 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8285.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:23 adam_maj [n=chatzill@static-87-105-53-84.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #lisp 21:42:28 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-72-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:00 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:47:37 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:49:07 Arelius [n=Indy@208.87.217.194] has joined #lisp 21:49:39 -!- adam_maj [n=chatzill@static-87-105-53-84.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has left #lisp 21:55:58 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-35-10.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:56:17 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.11.90] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 21:56:32 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:58:57 -!- vick [n=heh@ip-141-31-188-221.nat.selfnet.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:59:44 win! 22:00:41 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8285.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:21 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:01:35 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:02:22 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:03:07 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:03:48 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 22:06:16 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.97.0] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:07:20 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:12 beauty [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-rghaxpboyzkkjngm] has joined #lisp 22:08:26 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:08:37 night 22:09:23 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:24 oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.140.128] has joined #lisp 22:09:52 danlei` [n=user@82.113.106.84] has joined #lisp 22:09:55 -!- danlei [n=user@82.113.106.80] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:09:56 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 22:11:10 hi, a question, the #n=() syntax is standard? 22:11:29 I cannot found it in the hyperspec 22:11:47 clhs ## 22:11:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm 22:12:04 clhs #= 22:12:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 22:12:25 davazp: the number is a prefix argument, like #2A... for rank-2 arrays. 22:13:15 oops, Adlai, when I saw sharpsign I thought in #- #+ 22:13:18 thanks :-) 22:14:18 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 22:14:27 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:30 chris2 [n=zhora@dslb-188-099-122-253.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:25 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:18:06 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-150.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-202-4.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:18:57 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:21:23 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:21:43 -!- pipa [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-247.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Success] 22:22:07 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:25 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93776.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:42 good night 22:22:52 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06e51d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["ich werde hier gepiesackt"] 22:22:53 chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 22:23:15 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:23:23 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:23:33 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 22:24:01 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@208.87.217.194] has quit [] 22:24:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:24:30 Dodek_ [n=dodek@sandbox.dbc.wroc.pl] has joined #lisp 22:25:22 -!- Dodek_ is now known as Dodek 22:26:40 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:28:42 -!- spec[afk] is now known as mrSpec 22:32:28 yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 22:34:01 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:23 milanj [n=milan@79.101.197.64] has joined #lisp 22:34:30 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:46:28 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:47:30 sellout: have you subscribed to cffi-devel ? 22:49:10 fe[nl]ix: I have. Although I did so only slightly before sending the patch, so yeah, maybe it's queued for the administrator. Good point. 22:49:20 rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:45 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-90-97.client.stsn.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:51 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-dxhvqqrwpjlqpeno] has joined #lisp 22:50:51 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:21 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:56 manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6FE7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:28 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:53:13 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 22:55:29 sellout: try resending the message. you appear to be subscribed so it should pass 22:55:32 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:56:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:36 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:56:47 re-sent. 22:57:06 -!- centipedefarmer [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:57:09 is there a way to get the length of an array disregarding the fill-pointer 22:57:54 clhs array-total-size 22:57:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ar_tot.htm 22:58:28 -!- yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:58:35 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 22:58:40 cheers fe[nl]ix 22:59:31 centipedefarmer [n=nothingH@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:25 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-243.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:02:49 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:52 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:10 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:34 -!- flatline0 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[n=ianmcorv@student167-152.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 23:23:04 -!- qidush_ [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:24:28 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.140.128] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:07 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:44 oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.140.128] has joined #lisp 23:27:18 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:11 Guthur: I thought you were trying to make code that was fast and tight heh 23:28:30 hohum_ [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:33 using fill pointers is rather inefficient if you can avoid them 23:28:49 -!- hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:29:07 -!- C-o-r-E [n=nash@modemcable194.43-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:29:20 C-o-r-E [n=nash@modemcable194.43-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:29:53 robewald [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:50 different thing now 23:30:57 why are fill-pointers bad? 23:31:13 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 23:31:39 who said they are bad? 23:31:45 rahul 23:31:49 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@67.170.39.104] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:32:05 i don't see, he said inefficient, not bad 23:32:50 ya i assumed you would use inference to workout i meant bad in relation to inefficiency 23:33:22 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-135-34.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:31 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:31 -!- mattrepl_ is now known as mattrepl 23:33:49 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:49 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:09 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-39-104.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:20 what is inefficient about fill-pointers 23:39:36 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:04 is it if you use adjust-ability 23:46:26 Guthur: in most implementations fill pointers are almost as slow as adjustable arrays 23:46:56 for sure, in SBCL, it's about 3x slower to add a fill pointer and maybe 5% worse to add adjustability after that 23:47:15 (adjustability is only slow if you use it) 23:47:33 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:41 -!- udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:24 it's basically a similar tradeoff as there is between java's primitive arrays vs. ArrayLists 23:50:36 i could probably remove it in this instance, but then it would need to be adjustable, its a stack 23:50:57 Guthur: ok. you might consider using a linked list 23:51:12 it has more consistent performance 23:51:20 and is more friendly to the garbage collector 23:52:36 either way, if you can separate the representation from the interface, you'll be able to swap out whatever you like whenever you like (as we discussed for using closures vs vectors vs simple-arrays for coordinates) 23:52:57 PAIP has excellent examples of this if you want to learn it 23:53:23 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-188-103.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:37 i have the book, its getting time to go over it 23:55:04 you should be reading it first 23:55:17 you will see programming in a new light 23:55:39 it shows how to make your programs growable and optimizable 23:56:04 it's the ONE book I think everyone should spend the money to get 23:56:08 rahul: I'd wrap the extensibility in a special purpose struct and still use a vector. 23:56:35 pkhuong: why? the array machinery already does that for you 23:57:35 i wonder how hard it would be to make arrays with a fp to be simple in sbcl 23:58:06 stassats: eh. most of the time what you really want is extensibility too 23:58:56 rahul: more efficient for me to do so. Especially if I can locally unpack the struct. 23:59:59 pkhuong: hmm yeah... but your code gets more messy at that point