00:00:03 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:00:08 can i then define another method that takes say.. an string with the same name? 00:00:14 yep 00:00:19 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:21 it's just polymorphic dispatch 00:00:29 but it should be congruent 00:00:32 then it's perfect 00:00:44 yeah, the arglists need to be pretty close to the same 00:00:56 since they should be callable without knowing which method specifically gets executed 00:01:01 basically, the same number of required arguments 00:01:20 clhs 7.6.4 00:01:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm 00:01:39 segoe, the gory details of "the arglists need to be pretty close to the same" are seen at that CLHS page. 00:01:46 thanks Adlai 00:02:21 have fun, I guess? :\ 00:02:29 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-30-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:02:39 mmmm, so i can have a method that takes an integer and another one that takes an string with the same name 00:02:53 that's right 00:02:54 but not a method that takes two integers and one that takes only one string 00:03:10 that's right 00:03:20 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:03:21 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:17 well fair enough, it will work ok for what i need :) 00:05:57 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-89-114.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:00 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-173-7.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:06:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:07:13 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.140.235] has joined #lisp 00:07:27 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:02 Hello everybody, I am trying to decide between uffi and cffi for my foreign function interface... any help would be great... 00:08:08 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:08:56 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:09:00 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 00:09:02 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 00:09:15 Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-173-7.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:17 cffi 00:09:55 If it's a choice between uffi and cffi, always go with cffi. 00:10:07 notsonerdysunny: cffi, i highly doubt anybody would say otherwise 00:10:38 oh thanks .. it seems like cffi has 100% support :) 00:10:49 drewc: "Oh, UFFI, definately!" :-P 00:10:54 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-147-120.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:11:01 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-25-128.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:11:08 even if you want uffi, there cffi-uffi-compat 00:11:37 I am noob to lisp ffi .. it is primarily a learning exercise right now 00:12:32 *nyef* still primarily uses SB-ALIEN for FFI. 00:12:36 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:09 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:13:24 'twould be nice if sbcl's native interface was the same as cffi's (and anything therefore missing in CFFI vs what SBCL can do natively was remedied) 00:13:35 Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.68.11] has joined #lisp 00:13:48 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:14:09 *stassats* has used only sbcl's and ccl's ffis 00:14:56 would it be easier to just use the implementation-specific ffi ? it would be sbcl in my case 00:15:19 It depends quite a bit on the context of what you're doing. 00:15:22 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:15:36 without worrying about cross-lisp portability ofcourse 00:15:58 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:16:05 I cheerfully stick to SB-ALIEN for a couple of reasons, and one of them is that there are people out there who will do the porting to CFFI themselves if they want to use my software elsewhere. 00:16:57 my question would be .. would it be easier for a noob to learn sb-alien interface vs. cffi? 00:17:03 Another is that SB-ALIEN is what I know. A third is that I do SBCL hacking, and it saves me from having to know more than one FFI... 00:17:06 outsourcing to open-source fairies 00:17:23 stassats: In this case, it works. Case in point: lh-usb. 00:18:09 notsonerdysunny: I expect that the CFFI manuals would be easier to learn from and that CFFI would have more tutorials. 00:19:45 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-070-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:20:19 redblue [i=star@ppp022.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:20:24 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:20:59 benny` [n=benny@i577A832C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:23:11 is there a /EQ like /= ? 00:23:31 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:06 other than (not (eq 00:24:40 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 00:24:57 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A832C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:25:18 -!- flatline [n=flatline@z166195.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:19 egn: no, but it's commonly called neq. 00:25:36 pkhuong: thanks 00:25:46 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:18 benny` [n=benny@i577A832C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:26:24 egn: CL has UNLESS, which probably removes the need for a lot of complementing of operators 00:27:58 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:13 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.140.235] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:36 rahul: true, thanks 00:34:25 -!- Moop_ [n=Moop@c-98-244-54-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:34:49 setheus [n=setheus@70.116.140.134] has joined #lisp 00:36:35 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A7C6B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:54 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-147-120.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:59 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:38:05 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.133.225] has joined #lisp 00:40:19 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 00:40:26 cvandusen [n=cvanduse@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:00 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:57 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 00:48:13 Moop [n=Moop@c-98-244-54-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:25 _8david [n=user@pD95425DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:49:37 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.133.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:26 baack 00:52:59 ziga`: I take it you replace ..bindings.. with the bindings? 00:53:25 -!- clapautius [n=me@188.26.53.228] has left #lisp 00:54:16 rares1 [n=rares@174-22-228-8.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:16 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.191.189] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:54:53 -!- ska` [n=user@124.157.215.114] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:23 -!- Computer [n=Computer@unaffiliated/computer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:56:12 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-mqnobqzopoytkzih] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:57:05 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-117-66.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:57:25 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-28-233.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:57:26 -!- benny` is now known as benny 00:58:45 -!- rares1 is now known as rares 00:59:14 Computer [n=Computer@unaffiliated/computer] has joined #lisp 01:00:09 -!- rares is now known as antivigilante 01:00:22 -!- antivigilante is now known as rares 01:00:31 -!- michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has quit [] 01:02:22 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.90] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:03:01 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.133.225] has joined #lisp 01:03:25 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:09 clog_ [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 01:06:07 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD9542E2B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:25 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has left #lisp 01:09:44 michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 01:15:15 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:15:41 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 01:20:13 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:13 -!- clog_ is now known as clog 01:22:38 saikatc [n=saikatc@67.180.9.222] has joined #lisp 01:22:59 hzzhang [n=hzzhang@218.22.21.2] has joined #lisp 01:24:16 -!- hzzhang [n=hzzhang@218.22.21.2] has left #lisp 01:28:34 hm. why is my hunchentoot server forcing cache expiry in 1970? 01:30:49 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:06 Is there a way in lisp to find the host processor type? 01:36:23 that sounds like a unix time_t with a value of 0 01:36:50 I've never used hunchentoot, but if I had to wildly speculate then I'd say you're using a 0 where you want nil 01:38:12 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:17 redline6561: are you looking for a string or a keyword in *features* that you can use #+ and #- with? 01:38:43 joshe: A string would be preferable. Mostly, I just don't want to scrape the output of `uname -m`. Anything portable? 01:38:53 clhs machine-type 01:38:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mach_t.htm 01:39:15 joshe: Haha. I searched clhs but must've used the wrong keywords. Thanks! 01:39:36 different lisps will often return different values, but it's suitable for printing at least 01:40:40 It'll certainly do. 01:46:02 borism [n=boris@213.35.232.215] has joined #lisp 01:51:00 HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 01:51:30 what reason is there for this (setf foo (func foo x)) to perform a lot worse than (setf bar (func foo x)) 01:51:31 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:51:53 and is there any ways to improve 01:52:09 nyquist [n=user@85.71.221.19] has joined #lisp 01:52:20 what? 01:53:30 umm actually it may be a compiler thing the calls are within a loop 01:54:31 i don't understand you at all 01:54:50 stassats i'm not sure how to say it clearer, the code is pretty much it 01:55:04 the first is terrible the second isn't 01:55:26 oh, you mean the first is slower than the latter? 01:55:34 indeed 01:55:43 -!- michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has quit [] 01:55:55 are your measurements correct? 01:56:20 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:56:37 ya i'm i'm very sure they are, i have tested and retested 01:56:55 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:59 sorry for the typos, it's late 01:56:59 post your code 01:58:00 Guthur: Which compiler. 01:58:02 ? 01:58:18 sbcl 01:59:04 compiler can discard a function call if it knows it's not being used and has no side effects 01:59:38 umm that may be the case 02:11:38 yep i think that was the source of the issue, doh 02:15:02 tymekpawel [n=tymekpaw@c-98-208-58-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:35 hello 02:15:45 Sometimes that can work out for you. CCL got bad-ass hash-tables when a client saw how much faster SBCL's hash-tables were. Turns out the SBCL discarded the hash-table calls in the client's benchmark. 02:16:22 i'm having some trouble writing a recursive max-min function in lisp 02:16:40 But as a result, CCL has mutex-free thread-safe hash-tables. 02:16:52 given input like (max-min '(4 2 0 (a 1 c d) (2) (nil 3 a) (4) 0 1 a z d)), it should give 4 and 0 02:16:59 and it needs to support nested lists too 02:17:02 so my approach 02:17:06 was to combine all nested lists into one 02:17:10 and then find the max and min 02:17:14 but that didn't work out too well 02:17:20 (defun max-min (l) 02:17:20 (block maxmin-block 02:17:20 (cond 02:17:21 ((not l) (return-from maxmin-block nil)) 02:17:21 ((not (listp l)) (return-from maxmin-block nil)) 02:17:21 ((listp (car l)) (return-from maxmin-block (append (car l) (max-min (cdr l))))) 02:17:23 ((listp l) (return-from maxmin-block (append (list (car l)) (max-min (cdr l))))) 02:17:25 ) 02:17:27 oh god 02:17:27 ) 02:17:28 lisppaste: url 02:17:28 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 02:17:29 ) 02:17:31 any advice? 02:17:33 sorry 02:17:35 my bad 02:18:50 not related, but there's already a block named max-min, and you don't to use it here 02:19:02 don't need to 02:19:38 tymekpawel pasted "max-min fn" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90360 02:20:15 sellout, the way it ended up was that the code i was benching against discard every so did indeed look stellar fast 02:20:20 stassats could you explain? 02:20:26 every/everything 02:20:55 but it still beats mine of self assignment for some reason 02:21:11 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:21:32 but mine beats it when it assigns to another variable 02:21:59 tymekpawel: the last value in the function's body is returned 02:22:17 ah okay 02:22:20 understood 02:22:49 and defun establishes a block with the same name around the body 02:23:06 Guthur: SBCL's dataflow analyses aren't somewhat naive. Even (setf x x) is enough to confuse it into marking X as used. 02:24:26 tymekpawel: When you have a tree, the solution usually involves a tree traversal. Since the operations we're interested in (max and min) are commutative and associative, the traversal order doesn't matter. 02:24:54 sellout annotated #90360 "just cleaning up" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90360#1 02:25:32 thank you sellout 02:25:45 cmsimon [n=cms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 02:25:46 im VERY new to lisp, so i'm constantly learning the shortcuts and coding convention 02:26:19 lol i just realised i had debug set on my code 02:26:23 tymekpawel: You rarely see return in lisp ... everything is an expression. 02:29:17 sellout: thanks i'm looking over the clean code to see how to tackle this 02:30:05 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-7-223.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:18 is there a more effective lisp function for removing everything but integers from a list other than remove? 02:32:34 delete, but it's destructive 02:33:24 probably a better idea to use mapcar and integerp to clean the list then 02:33:52 Guthur pasted "vec tests" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90362 02:34:14 remove-if-not #'integerp ..) 02:34:15 tymekpawel: At this point, your problem is one of algorithms, not programming in any concrete language there may be. 02:34:16 man 02:34:17 there is no declare on the squirl tests because it actually made it perform worse 02:34:21 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:34:23 i never solved simplify totally :( 02:35:00 ups .. my message got messed up .. 02:35:23 tymekpawel: mapcan, but it'll be the same as remove 02:35:49 pkhuong: lisp is confusing for me. i'm going to write the function in python and then see if i can parallel that in lisp. 02:36:59 tymekpawel: lisp is irrelevant here. The very approach is brain damaged. 02:38:59 pkhuong: apologies for the damage to my brain. if you'd be willing to help that would be much appreciated. 02:39:33 I have, 15 minutes ago. 02:41:01 i understand that traversal order is irrelevant, but at this point i don't really know how to even go about properly traversing the trees in lisp 02:41:05 so you're advice isn't of much help 02:41:31 read a book, like SICP 02:41:52 inger [n=quassel@89.100.248.66] has joined #lisp 02:45:43 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-157.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:55 whoppix [n=whoppix@85.165.69.172] has joined #lisp 02:49:57 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:53 diegoviola [n=diego@201.217.43.148] has joined #lisp 02:54:04 -!- diegoviola [n=diego@201.217.43.148] has left #lisp 02:56:32 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp022.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:07:09 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:07:42 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:05 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:21:44 diegoviola [n=diego@201.217.43.148] has joined #lisp 03:21:52 hi, are you guys english professors? 03:22:17 no. 03:22:38 what a strange question 03:23:03 someone told me you guys are 03:23:53 23:40 < bougyman> go to a forum that's very english centric. 03:24:02 23:41 < bougyman> if you feel really geeky, hang out in #lisp on freenode, everyone in there is a professor. 03:26:57 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:30:41 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBAF4B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:30:56 -!- cmsimon [n=cms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 03:33:03 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:33:38 diegoviola: I don't think bougyman is implying that we are english professors 03:33:38 S11001001, memo from lpolzer: can we have a chat sometime about weblocks-ncos? thanks! 03:33:45 hmm we did that already :) 03:34:29 S11001001: what do you think he's implying? 03:35:05 michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 03:35:47 that, separately, we are less tolerant of poor english usage here, and that such is perhaps because we behave and speak in a rather academic manner 03:36:10 some of us anyway, which is probably what bougyman means by "everyone" 03:37:44 my english isn't very good 03:37:52 -!- Moop [n=Moop@c-98-244-54-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:38:10 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has joined #lisp 03:38:29 -!- michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 03:39:17 is your Lisp good? 03:39:18 michaeljaaka [n=michael@212.76.58.167] has joined #lisp 03:39:26 I don't know Lisp 03:40:08 I know it's a language, but how can it help? 03:40:30 then this channel isn't for you, unless you want to learn it 03:40:33 you came in a channel dedicated to that language. 03:40:59 stassats: how does it compare to ruby? 03:41:06 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:41:09 diegoviola: maybe he ment "lisp professors" as good programmers 03:41:14 I already learned Ruby, why I would like to learn Lisp? 03:41:21 i don't know ruby 03:41:29 diegoviola: you tell me. Again, you're the one who came here. 03:41:44 diegoviola: which is your first language ? 03:41:59 I come here because I been told that you were English professors 03:42:09 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 03:42:18 george__: Spanish 03:42:19 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:42:25 That's most certainly not the case, at least for the vast majority of people. 03:42:28 and instead we will convert you from ruby to lisp 03:42:48 Ok, what is the difference with Ruby and Lisp? 03:42:55 I heard Lisp is integrated on Emacs right? 03:43:01 english isn't native language for many people here, including myself 03:43:13 minion: features of common lisp? 03:43:13 features of common lisp: Features of Common Lisp, a one-page summary of what makes Common Lisp unique: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 03:43:22 *diegoviola* reading about lisp 03:43:39 diegoviola: yo hablo un poco de espanhol ... pero yo compreendo mejor 03:43:42 diegoviola: emacs has emacs lisp, but we're talking about common lisp 03:43:46 stassats: I speak two languages, english and bad english 03:43:47 george__: excelente 03:44:01 diegoviola: escriba en espanol ... 03:44:13 george__: claro, cuando quieras... 03:44:19 george__: de donde eres? 03:44:22 english, bitte! 03:44:31 diegoviola: brasil.... 03:44:41 stassats: german ? 03:44:50 george__: eu falo um pouco de portugues tb 03:44:54 george__: sou de Paraguay, Asuncion 03:45:03 English or elsewhere. 03:45:06 bitte is german, but i ask you to speak english 03:45:23 stassats: we geths enen ? 03:45:32 ok ... in english 03:45:41 your german is bad 03:45:49 stassats: i only speak =/ 03:46:04 the Geth is an android race in the fictional Mass Effect universe 03:46:05 stassats: will learn how to write someday 03:46:15 ehehe 03:46:56 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:47:11 george__: it should've been spelled "wie geht es Ihnen" 03:47:17 diegoviola: if you like ruby try clojure 03:47:36 stassats: ehehe i only speak ... and understand . Don't know how to write 03:48:04 stassats: same in spanish 03:48:33 stassats: just read the "sound" in it 03:49:07 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBACD9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:50:08 stassats: do you want to be my german professor ? 03:50:38 i forgot german a long time ago 03:51:03 redblue [i=star@ppp187.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:51:50 is lisp a general purpose language? 03:52:13 is it good for telephony? 03:52:34 telecommunications 03:52:38 diegoviola: yes as peter norvig said "lisp is general purporse and c is object oriented" 03:52:53 diegoviola: people says the opposite =/ 03:53:00 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:53:05 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has joined #lisp 03:53:23 c is oriented for "von newman machine" 03:53:24 I thought C was procedural 03:53:31 yes it is 03:53:39 c++ 03:53:41 i ment 03:54:03 minion: tell diegoviola about pcl 03:54:04 diegoviola: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:54:16 thanks 03:54:31 diegoviola: what is good for telecom in your concept ? 03:54:32 lisp is general purpose, and object oriented, and you-name-it oriented 03:54:54 I see 03:54:57 *gigamonkey* wonders if minion keeps any stats about how often it is asked about which things. 03:55:18 i bet pcl is in the tops 03:55:32 I been listening to people say "Erlang is good for telecom" but I don't know why, so I just want to know how they both compare in that field 03:55:57 gigamonkey: and then you can calculate how much did you earn thanks to minion 03:56:10 diegoviola: If erlang is good for telecom, it might be because it was designed that way. 03:56:20 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-216-76.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 03:56:30 diegoviola: erlang was built by ericssom 03:56:36 interesting 03:56:37 yeah 03:56:42 diegoviola: Lisp is -especialy- good at hard problems 03:57:19 nyquist: what kind of hard problems, like math? 03:57:24 diegoviola: erlang is fail tolerant , supports multithreading in an outstanding level 03:57:27 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 03:57:42 george__: nice 03:58:14 multi-threading? ITYM concurrency 03:58:48 stassats: what is the difference by the way ? 03:59:24 george__: Threading is an approach that doesn't allow for much (or safe) concurrency. 03:59:32 diegoviola: you really should check the link, you will find answers to most of your questions in introduction 03:59:56 thanks 04:00:54 sellout: "actors" in erlang for me is a multi threading organizer 04:01:11 thanks to gigamonkey! I wonder what was the top link minion suggested before pcl :) 04:01:23 I currently use the FreeSWITCH software which is written in C but has a Erlang module 04:01:53 I do telephony but I will look into Lisp also 04:02:01 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.148.71] has joined #lisp 04:02:04 and it's also interesting what is the top clhs query 04:02:18 concurrency is the paradigm , multi threading is the technique 04:02:30 well, that can be arranged through logs 04:02:34 george__: Erlang was single-threaded for a long time. If you wanted to run on a multi-core system, you had to run multiple instances. 04:02:53 stassats: guess so.. but really interesting 04:03:08 george__: threading is not the technique Erlang uses for its concurrency. 04:03:18 sellout: it uses actors as i said 04:03:20 george__: threads imply shared (mutable) memory. That's definitely not the model for erlang. Multiprocessing doesn't need multithreading. 04:03:22 stassats: in case people dont /msg them.. 04:03:59 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-216-76.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:04:15 you guys are saying opposite things ... 04:04:37 george__: No, pkhuong and I are in agreement. 04:05:51 concurrency as i said is the paradigm ... if you approach programming in that way , you got multiple threads in a invisible way ... but they exist in binary level 04:06:19 gigamonkey: in c@w. 04:06:49 concurrency is simillar to multi threading ... but means you don't have to deal with threads 04:07:02 the programmer * 04:07:13 but the compilers designers yes 04:07:16 that's wrong, you can concurrency without threading 04:07:20 can have 04:07:39 yes , because it is invisible 04:07:40 Threads are an implementation of concurrency. 04:07:52 pkhuong: yes 04:08:04 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:09 and erlang doesn't use this implementation 04:08:26 stassats: the programmer no , the compiler designers yes 04:08:46 well, the compiler designers doesn't use it as well 04:08:48 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 04:08:51 george__: As I said, Erlang didn't have any threading for a long time, but it was still Erlang (it still had its concurrency). 04:10:02 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.118.137] has joined #lisp 04:10:21 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:11:15 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 04:11:21 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.133.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:14:13 in wikipedia ... " while threads are considerable complicated in other languages ... bla bla bla ... in erlang it is quite simple ...bla bla bla ..." 04:14:29 tufflax [n=tufflax@1-1-8-11a.ang.sth.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 04:15:38 erlang uses green thread" 04:15:39 your replacement of words with bla bla bla are changing the meaning 04:15:57 "green threads" 04:16:10 for multi threading 04:17:07 george__, it's not the underlying implementation -- it's the provided API 04:17:28 (besides, HiPE also uses SMP threads) 04:17:35 george__: green processes 04:19:26 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.148.71] has quit [Client Quit] 04:19:56 but lightweight processes somewhat similar to Java's original green threads 04:20:06 notice "somewhat similar" 04:20:14 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:17 in erlang the processes can acess the same memory using locks 04:20:33 when you can acess the same memory , you have threading 04:20:40 not a process ... 04:21:08 it is something between a process and a multi-threading 04:21:09 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:21:50 anyway ... let's talk about lisp 04:22:08 no. In fact the main implementation copies messages between processes, which lets each process perform independent GCs. EtoS showed that sometimes has a significant (negative) impact on performance. 04:22:30 i agree 04:22:48 haskell concurrency model is the best YMO 04:23:00 wgl: I'm in #c@w now if you're still around. 04:23:06 which was absorverd by clojure ... 04:28:57 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:30:47 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:35 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.118.137] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:35 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-npckqokjvbuyclua] has joined #lisp 04:34:47 -!- michaeljaaka [n=michael@212.76.58.167] has quit [] 04:35:35 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-172-227.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:37:00 -!- nyquist [n=user@85.71.221.19] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:35 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:42:11 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-30-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:42:41 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 04:45:08 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 04:47:55 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 04:49:55 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-npckqokjvbuyclua] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:51:03 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-216-76.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 04:51:19 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-157.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:52:12 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:53:07 fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has joined #lisp 04:54:17 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:09 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.206.53] has joined #lisp 04:59:39 ska` [n=user@58.11.74.211] has joined #lisp 05:01:40 cs140a anyone? 05:03:55 hmm, slime isn't giving me a repl buffer 05:03:56 any idea? 05:05:08 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.245.16] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:05:46 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 05:06:02 put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your .emacs 05:07:51 cool, that seems to do the trick :) thanks 05:09:56 -!- tymekpawel [n=tymekpaw@c-98-208-58-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:11:32 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@67.180.9.222] has quit [] 05:12:35 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:14:09 Hate it when SBCL tells me it's deleting unreachable code, but everything seems to be correct >:( 05:15:08 sykopomp, first it's generating the code, then deleting it 05:15:23 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:15:30 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:51 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@32.177.18.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:25 *tic* is pleased to find out #'reload (using asdf) works in stumpwm. excellent for us swank-deprived individuals. 05:20:29 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:38 Fare, how is xcvb coming along? 05:21:30 it is getting better almost everyday 05:22:41 nice. what are the major parts missing? 05:22:57 see TODO 05:23:05 basically, 05:23:20 1- a standalone backend 05:24:02 2- "exploded dependencies" so we can centralize dep declarations like many maintainers want 05:24:36 3- a brute force dependency optimizer 05:25:37 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp187.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:26:42 but I think it can already replace asdf for a lot of things 05:29:28 the majorer part missing is users and other contributors 05:33:41 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:37:02 -!- segoe [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-lxuwkspxqeyldtwx] has quit ["Page closed"] 05:38:50 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:38:58 tic: interested in using xcvb? 05:39:54 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-243-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:40:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:41:45 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442618.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:43:38 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 05:44:27 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.19.193] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:46:32 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host183.190-137-182.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:47:06 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-216-76.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:48:57 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 05:49:08 Jora [i=Jora@unaffiliated/jora] has joined #lisp 05:51:59 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:24 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:55:43 Is there a sequence function for destructive insertion? 06:00:57 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:01:27 there's push, but only for lists 06:02:02 and vector-push 06:02:20 vng [n=user@123.20.92.25] has joined #lisp 06:02:36 hello 06:04:12 *fusss* is too tired to find a lisp translation of this function signature http://code.google.com/p/redis/wiki/SortCommand 06:04:41 -!- inger [n=quassel@89.100.248.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:05:24 sykopomp: are you ready to port Sheeple to the fastest database on earth? 06:05:49 I am putting the final touches on cl-redis, 11k read queries per second and such 06:06:06 fusss: not ready, no. Probably won't be for quite a while :P 06:06:21 make that 110k q/s 06:07:10 redis has strings, sequences lists, sets and ordered sets; every operation is atomic at insane speeds 06:07:54 hm 06:09:04 runs as a daemon without root priviledges,requires less than 10MB, and does live replication and slave-master modes 06:09:53 syncs to disk at the interval of your choice; ~1/s has a negligble ~0.005 overhad :-) 06:11:30 even has timed keys; TTL of your choice, or unix-time. easy expiration. log rotation is pretty much arming a call back to flush a key to disk at T-N, and setting a TTL on the key until time T 06:14:07 gonzojive, if you want B-trees, use B-trees. 06:14:12 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has joined #lisp 06:15:10 Fare: what? 06:16:19 c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has joined #lisp 06:18:15 maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has joined #lisp 06:18:21 if you want a datastructure with random insertion, use a tree, not a sequence 06:19:29 Fare, using xcvb: I don't think I have much use for it, right now at least. Possibly later. I'm mostly curious on the development. 06:20:10 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.92.25] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:20:16 Fare: I am using sequences to implement a B-Tree, in fact 06:20:26 Good afternoon! 06:21:30 good morning, maus. 06:21:55 fusss: what exactly can you do atomically in redis compared to a transactional store like BDB or Tokyo Cabinet where you can wrap all db operations in a transaction? 06:22:38 vng [n=user@123.20.92.25] has joined #lisp 06:22:48 hello, tic 06:24:34 gonzojive: BDB is a much richer object store; redis is just insanely fast at strings, sets and lists. nearly every operation is O(1) since the author is a performance freak. it's excellent for gulping bulk incoming data; say, as a log server, chat server, counter, etc. for sequences, for 1+ operations no tcx is needed. 06:24:46 leo` [n=user@222.253.73.102] has joined #lisp 06:25:30 for n+=X type operations, n is not guaranteed to be the same between the time you read it and the time you write to it, though. 06:26:46 -!- leo` [n=user@222.253.73.102] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:28:04 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has left #lisp 06:28:17 -!- ska` [n=user@58.11.74.211] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:25 maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has joined #lisp 06:30:15 hm, the recent changes in closer-mop seems to break a lot of stuff .. i.e., cl:defmethod vs. closer-mop:defmethod package conflicts and similar 06:30:23 indeed 06:30:41 I've shadowed closer-mop:defmethod and closer-mop:defgeneric 06:31:05 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:21 fusss: since databases are a topic, I'm working on a distributed b-tree db in lisp based on this idea: http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2007/HPL-2007-193.html 06:32:49 gonzojive: nice. 06:32:58 gonzojive: have you seen manardb? 06:34:24 fusss: I saw it a while ago, but I don't remember much about it 06:38:11 fusss: ah, yes. manardb uses memory mapping to work its magic. I have not played around with it, though. I use elephant for the persistent MOP stuff, and elephant has been looking for an all-lisp backend for a while so I thought I would try to write one 06:38:29 gonzojive, ok, nice. 06:38:32 -!- Jora [i=Jora@unaffiliated/jora] has left #lisp 06:38:45 gonzojive: i was bitten badly by rucksack, it's all lisp 06:39:27 cl-store is just a serializer, but does a phenomenal job. you can deserialize across implementation, OS and process architectures :-) 06:39:57 fusss: and languages. 06:39:59 :D 06:40:02 fusss, bitten? how so? 06:40:31 Fare: rucksack is a fickle moody beast. you never know what could go wrong until something goes wrong. 06:40:49 ouch 06:40:54 fusss: examples of failures? 06:42:29 i had objects being persisted in a tight loop, reading records from an xml stream, doing something to them, and storing the computation for easier lisp access. tested tested test. it worked. deployed. it worked. but it became nigh near impossible to read the data back after it was done. 3 days writing the code to process it, and a week learning its quirks. 06:44:14 for big things i used clsql, for small one off things cl-store; now i have Redis to bridge the gap. high performance big jobs, but sacrificing richness of data structures. no more CLOS, at least until i figure out a way to shoe-horn clos serialization into redis. 06:44:51 tymekpawel [n=tymekpaw@c-98-208-58-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:04 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:04 so you use cl-store to make a simple-byte-vector that you store in redis? 06:45:17 currently i can store clos object on disk as cl-store, but all the keys i use for identity and computation, along with the path to the cl-store file on disk, can be kept in Redis. 06:45:30 you described redis so good, but what's the catch? 06:45:39 Fare: cl-redis existed in <24 hours only 06:46:00 stassats: wait til we go live with it, and i might just come back wailing ;-) 06:46:21 how does redis compare to Tokyo* 06:47:22 -!- tymekpawel [n=tymekpaw@c-98-208-58-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:47:31 Fare: Scroll down to the big header a bit down http://code.google.com/p/redis/wiki/README 06:48:04 redis is a bit lispier than TC 06:48:12 it supports lists, sets, sequences, and strings 06:49:00 redis 100% network enabled; tokyo cabinet has tyrant to expose the db over the network 06:49:29 redis doesn't have a C library that you can use in lieu of the socket interface. even the C++ lib uses the socket interface. 06:51:02 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:51:27 and finally, Redis is a REPL, and has small subset of regular expressions; so you can do things like KEYS * to return all keys. very interaction oriented, that's why you can get away without a query language; it's operators can be combined to generate and filter results. 06:51:32 good morning! 06:51:56 nikodemus, hi! 06:52:12 nikodemus, did you see my make-random-state patch? 06:55:22 beauty [n=beauty@83.231.11.63] has joined #lisp 06:59:02 milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.233] has joined #lisp 06:59:14 not sure. let me check 06:59:31 morning 07:00:01 oh, it's a new thing. /me reads 07:00:49 Fare: I believe using /dev/urandom is bad, because it may block 07:01:26 isn't /dev/random blocking? 07:01:31 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has left #lisp 07:01:53 hm. i thought /dev/random was nonblocking -- need to check 07:02:20 wikipedia says /dev/urandom is "unlocked"/nonblocking 07:02:22 "A read from the /dev/urandom device will not block waiting for more entropy." from man urandom 07:02:31 maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has joined #lisp 07:02:43 stassats: my source is clearly more reliable! 07:02:44 i see. i got them reversed -- nevermind me 07:03:07 i'm still working through my first cup of coffee :) 07:03:44 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-0-141.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:04:30 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:04:42 maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has joined #lisp 07:04:47 nikodemus, I thikn you've got random and urandom reversed 07:05:14 nikodemus, I'm more worried about whether urandom is present on other unices, and what to do w/ windows 07:05:50 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has left #lisp 07:06:22 -!- diegoviola [n=diego@201.217.43.148] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:44 maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has joined #lisp 07:09:11 man urandom says it's bad taste to read more than 32 bytes at once from it 07:10:32 Fare: i wonder if it would be better to have users needing truly random seeds read from /dev/urandom manually: document the size and type of the seed array 07:10:54 /dev/urandom exists on darwin, but is a PRNG 07:11:11 it's a PRNG everywhere 07:11:34 it's just that the kernel "mixes in" a few bits of noise here and there 07:12:20 how can they possibly read manually? 07:12:31 in any case, I offer a way for them to read manually 07:14:15 fare: i ment something like (make-random-state (snarf-array +random-state-seed-length+ +random-state-seed-element-type+ "/dev/urandom")) 07:14:19 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 07:15:04 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:15:26 snarf-array? 07:15:41 imaginary utility to read a specialized array from a file 07:15:46 anyways: i like the array seeds 07:15:58 what's wrong with my interface? 07:16:03 doesn't it do just that? 07:16:22 it allows that, which i like, as i said 07:16:31 ok 07:16:37 also works from a bignum 07:17:11 oh, i didn't notice that -- nifty 07:17:44 make-random-seed needs be renamed. Intermediate variables, too. 07:17:52 aside from the question of "is reading all this stuff out of /dev/random ok", there are some other things: 07:17:54 only lightly tested 07:18:43 I could read "just" 32 bytes from /dev/urandom then let the "usual" algorithm go. 07:18:45 1. comments: the array mangling code needs to be commented, in particular 07:18:54 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-48-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:11 2. documentation re. the extensions 07:19:22 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:19:27 where should the documentation go? 07:19:42 if I make a patch, does it have a chance of getting in? 07:20:11 3. init-random-state call for (unsigned-btyte 32) needs to guard against zero, or init-random-state needs to be made to work with zero 07:20:17 i think it does 07:20:40 documentation should go in the docstring of MAKE-RANDOM-STATE, unless there is a new public interface 07:22:59 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.92.25] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:23:02 4. sbcl-standard indentation ;) 07:23:36 i think it has the right idea 07:23:38 ahem, is there a sbcl-mode? 07:23:41 ok 07:24:12 (your IF's are intended by two spaces instead of aligning with TEST) 07:24:20 IFs, even 07:24:27 ok 07:24:35 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:55 commenting the array-mangling and documenting the intended interface are the biggest things 07:25:23 ok 07:25:34 will do. 07:25:39 have a nice day! 07:25:45 you too! 07:26:21 hey, what are you doing @ #lisp this time of the night? or are you in europe now? 07:26:22 Good morning. 07:26:36 hi beach 07:27:01 Hello beach! 07:27:49 procrastinating 07:27:50 ttyl 07:27:53 bed awaits 07:28:00 (digesting my pho+?) 07:28:15 maus: Did you see my mail with the comments on your code? 07:28:59 maus: yes, sir. Thank you so much.. we will adjust it 07:29:04 beach: :) 07:29:18 Fare: I like my ph in the morning. 07:29:56 beach: yes, sir. Thank you so much.. we will adjust it 07:30:17 maus: I saw it. No need to repeat. 07:30:30 fusss pasted "better way for lazy connection opening?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90373 07:30:54 beach: you might be interested in http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/clim-colours.lisp 07:30:56 beach: okie.. i had a mistake in typing 07:31:17 Krystof: What does it d 07:31:24 er, do? 07:31:32 I like the smell of pho+? in the morning... 07:31:33 fusss: socket-close isn't in the clean-up form of unwind-protect 07:31:38 *beach* turns off viqr input method. 07:32:12 *tic* rewrites history. 07:32:26 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Success] 07:32:35 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:33:13 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 07:33:16 can somebody take a look at the paste and suggest better ways to pool connections? the WITH-REDIS macro has two uses: within REDIS-* functions, so they can be called from the repl without cruft. But sometimes users should be able to use with-redis with multiple redis-* functions in is body, with no penalty. 07:33:27 stassats: good catch! :-) thank you. 07:35:52 beach: it's a colour picker, but displays the colours you can actually show on a typical scren in CIE chromaticity coordinates 07:36:09 use #\+ and #\- to adjust the luminance, and mouse over colours 07:36:24 so all colours displayed at a given time should have the same perceptual brightness 07:36:45 Krystof: Nice! This could become part of McCLIM, I guess. 07:38:34 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:39:00 redblue [i=star@ppp035.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:39:01 ah, but it's flickery and probably an order of magnitude too slow :-) 07:40:13 if we do produce a colour picker widget this should probably be one of the forms 07:40:28 if only because no-one will understand it. Consistency! 07:43:19 Xof: nifty! (i would appreciate display of the rgb numbers along with the color itself) 07:44:56 after going dark with -, + seems to jump straight to a certain point 07:45:54 *fusss* is suspicious about depending a package on babel for just STRING-TO-OCTETS 07:46:07 vng [n=user@123.20.92.25] has joined #lisp 07:46:20 fusss: are you implementation specific? 07:46:28 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:30 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:35 if you're using sbcl, there's SB-EXT:STRING-TO-OCTETS 07:47:02 Krystof: definitely a bit flickery. Double buffering might help. 07:47:10 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:47:34 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:47:45 hello beach 07:47:47 beach: about our code's comments.. we just would like to explains our steps.. so now we should comment it again so that people can read it clearly, right? 07:47:50 Krystof: and I got a divison-by-zeo error in the conversion. 07:47:55 hello vng 07:48:10 we've read your email 07:48:45 beach: huh. I thought I'd prevented those 07:49:13 maus: Comments should contain information that is complementary to the information already in the code. Normally, your code should not need such additional information because it should be clear as it is. Occasionally, though, it could be useful. 07:49:25 oh, no, look, a typo in the handle-event method 07:49:34 (and (<= 0 x 1) (< 0 x 1) 07:49:38 the second x should be a y 07:49:49 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:51 Krystof: :) 07:50:40 nikodemus: as portable as I can get it; building on linux sbcl, testing on cmucl, ccl, clisp on linux, lw, clisp and ccl on win32 07:50:56 i know sb-impl has octets-to-string 07:51:32 maus: The danger with too many comments is that they can easily get "out of sync" with if the code is modified and the comment is not. 07:52:33 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:40 Krystof: i gor rid of the flicker :P 07:52:55 by cheating (paste coming up) 07:53:23 beach: Ah, it's the reason you told us: don't use the *name of code* in the comments 07:53:39 vng: That's correct. 07:53:50 beach: ya 07:54:33 nikodemus pasted "look, no flicker" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90375 07:55:39 nikodemus: double buffering in the form of an X11 image? 07:55:53 nope, using andy's medium-draw-pixels* 07:57:02 (which is to say, i don't understand X11 enough to say if what you say describes his use of CREATE-IMAGE + PUT-IMAGE) 07:57:51 fusss: have you ever been tempted to use stored procedures in SQL-based databases? 07:57:58 nikodemus: I think it does :) 07:58:12 p_l: no idea. i suck at SQL. 07:58:25 *p_l* is getting fed up with ORMs 08:00:22 what i'm wondering at, are clim designs too heavyweight for "put these pixels up now, please", or does the mcclim implementation just need some love? 08:01:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:42 beach: we used coerce-array-to-list to convert the array to list then we can put it to the slot of %cells in presentation.. please explain us more 08:02:43 nikodemus: My guess would be the latter. 08:03:09 maus: Why do you need it to be alist? 08:03:17 *a list? 08:03:34 mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 08:03:53 smaxarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has joined #lisp 08:04:07 beach: we remmebered that when we put that array in the slot %cell.. it had error 08:04:45 maus: When you have an error like that, you don't just try arbitrary fixes that work, you find out what the problem is. There is no problem having in array as the value of that slot. 08:05:35 maus: and if you can't figure it out, you ask. 08:10:15 beach: yes.. we will check it again.. sometimes, our Lisp Environment need to be reload again if we compile the same code again and again.. because some time our code has no problem but it compile with an error.. so we have to quit Emacs and re-run it.. is the reason that there are the same variables from the previous compilation? 08:10:54 if you use defvar 08:11:29 stassats: ah, okie 08:11:37 maus: Things similar to that could happen. There are ways to prevent most of such problems, like what stassats says to use defparameter instead of defvar or defconstant. 08:11:54 C-M-x in slime to redefine a defvar 08:13:01 I got it. Thank you. 08:13:34 dysinger [n=dysinger@32.177.197.94] has joined #lisp 08:16:19 -!- mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [] 08:18:51 beach: rgb-image-designs are mcclim specific, right? and not even exported yet 08:19:56 nikodemus: I think that might be true. We don't want to export them from the CLIM package, but they could be put in clim-extensions. 08:20:08 unless i'm mistaken, the slowness is due to an API-design issue 08:20:51 a) backends need to do transformations along the lines of mage-to-ximage 08:21:51 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:52 b) imo one of the points of having an rgb-design-style thing is to be able to reuse your own massive image array -- but the transformation means it will need to be copied -> lost performance 08:22:57 c) solution: expose a "raster" object or similar, which does the backend specific directions up-front, so that they don't need to be redone every time you want to put the design up 08:23:30 nikodemus: possibly. Though I don't see why essentially copying an array would take any significant time, at least not if the size is modest. 08:24:35 nikodemus: With c, you will have to make a backend-specific pixel-drawing function, which I would think would be even slower. 08:25:48 well, not so much the copying, as the transformation 08:26:11 nikodemus: I did some experiments a few years ago with the thought of writing a frame-buffer backend, and using just X11 images of fairly large size, I could get tens of frames per second. 08:26:22 nikodemus, nice raytracer. 08:26:41 lpolzer_: thanks. did you actually run it? 08:27:07 no, I just read your blog post 08:27:18 might check the code out today 08:27:36 nikodemus: I would think the transformation would be even faster because those are operations executed at processor speed, as opposed to memory speed. 08:28:01 what about an API to expose a memory-mapped raster specific to backend, for those who need performance? :) 08:28:18 nikodemus: Perhaps this is a simple matter of optimizing the few instructions that are used for the transformation? 08:30:58 p_l: It wouldn't hurt to have a reasonably fast backend-neutral method as well. 08:32:08 nikodemus pasted "image-to-ximage -- less flicker" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90377 08:34:00 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has joined #lisp 08:34:08 beach: possibly that too -- but it seems pretty clear to me that doing the pixel translation at display time is going to mean extra work in many cases anyways 08:34:26 hey, wait a second 08:34:53 this doesn't make sense: why would eliding a lisp-side operation remove _white_ flicker? 08:35:07 from drawing black-on-black 08:35:20 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has quit [Client Quit] 08:35:32 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:35:45 -!- manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:36:32 aha! the pane is _cleared_ before the new almost-identical image is drawn 08:37:25 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@32.177.197.94] has quit [] 08:38:33 nikodemus: If you don't clear the pane (and if the pane is recording output), then you will accumulate output records. 08:38:51 image-to-ximage takes about 20% of the time in my colour picker 08:39:04 michaeljaaka [n=michael@212.76.58.167] has joined #lisp 08:39:18 Krystof: and how much is that in absolute time? 08:39:48 enough to impair the 1/20 second response time on my laptop 08:40:42 the issue of effectively clearing the output history (drawing white) and then the pixmap is the major cause of flicker, yes 08:41:38 I noticed something else which probably people generally don't care about: I think the event processing on non-threaded lisps prevents compression of e.g. multiple repaint events 08:41:40 isn't there a way to tell clim to clear history, but leave the display intact? (since we know we're going to overpaint immediately anyways?) 08:43:10 nikodemus: Nothing prevents it, but I don't think it was implemented that way. 08:43:44 nikodemus: The easiest way to avoid flicker now is to use a sever-side pixmap. Using :double-buffering t in the pane is sometimes enough. 08:44:16 nikodemus: But that is likely to slow things down even more. 08:45:11 clim: clear-output-record 08:45:12 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/16-2.html#_862 08:45:27 -!- borism [n=boris@213.35.232.215] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:28 Krystof: I wonder if that has to do with laptop graphics cards or something because the experiment that I mentioned above did not go so well on my laptop. 08:47:52 nunb [n=nundan@94.160.235.91] has joined #lisp 08:48:01 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:27 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:49:29 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2bc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:42 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:44 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has left #lisp 08:58:15 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:58:40 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:59:50 trivial-time? a portable way to benchmark execution time and print similar results? 09:00:00 maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has joined #lisp 09:01:01 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:01:25 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:02:24 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:12 -!- michaeljaaka [n=michael@212.76.58.167] has quit [] 09:05:07 it's too trivial 09:08:37 if you're inspecting by eye it's probably too trivial, but if you want to collect profiling info? 09:11:19 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:11:20 Xof: why the DRAW-RECTANGLE* in HANDLE-REPAINT? 09:11:36 or rather: Krystof 09:12:43 -!- xxoxx [n=ooxoo@tor/regular/xxoxx] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:13:05 Krystof: it's that that does the clearing to white -- which you then repaint over -> flicker. why not just repaint the design, since it seems to cover the whole area anyways? 09:13:12 xxoxx [n=ooxoo@tor/regular/xxoxx] has joined #lisp 09:17:47 mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 09:17:47 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:18:15 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:18:49 leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:19:52 -!- nunb [n=nundan@94.160.235.91] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:20:06 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-214-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:11 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-173-7.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:21:51 billitch_ [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has joined #lisp 09:22:12 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-214-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:22:31 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:25:06 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:29 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:29:20 nikodemus pasted "no flicker in the upper pane" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90378 09:29:36 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:37 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has joined #lisp 09:31:31 dysinger [n=dysinger@166.129.64.251] has joined #lisp 09:35:40 -!- billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:35:40 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 09:40:21 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:40:45 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:44:08 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:44:27 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 09:44:27 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 09:44:33 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:45:18 borism [n=boris@213.35.232.215] has joined #lisp 09:46:41 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-35-10.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 09:48:01 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has quit [Client Quit] 09:48:33 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 09:48:46 flatline [n=flatline@z166195.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 09:49:36 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 09:53:26 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:48 hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.21] has joined #lisp 09:54:10 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 09:55:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:09 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:57:08 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:15 any information for lisp compiler? 10:01:24 hjpark: what's the question? 10:01:51 I mean lisp compiler implementation. 10:01:56 there are several lisp compilers available 10:02:02 yeah. 10:02:04 minion: tell hjpart about sbcl 10:02:06 hjpart: look at sbcl: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/sbcl 10:02:09 -!- mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [] 10:02:26 I know there's a number of compiler, But I need some information about lisp compiler implementation. 10:02:35 ask a question, then 10:02:59 lisp is compiled pretty much like any other dynamic language 10:03:06 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:10 Now, I'm Translate lisp to imperative style intermediate langauge. 10:03:25 ok 10:03:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:27 but you know, there's only expression in lisp. translating some expression like (+ (if (= 1 1) 1 1) (if (= 1 0) 2 3)) to imperative style is quite difficult.. 10:04:39 um, it's really not 10:04:56 um.. 10:05:02 it works just like traslating the equivalent expression using the teriary operand in C 10:05:15 :? ? 10:05:34 umm... 10:05:40 mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 10:05:46 do you have a book on compiler implementation? 10:05:51 yeah, sure. 10:05:59 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:06:02 which one? 10:06:07 appel? 10:06:09 Engineering a compiler. 10:06:36 There's a number of translation information such as C to intermediate language(assembly like). 10:06:47 But, No information for functional language to IL.. 10:07:15 if that's the book i think it is, it is not very good 10:07:54 I think so. 10:07:56 minion: tell hjpark about LiSP 10:07:56 hjpark: please look at LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 10:07:58 appel's modern compiler implementation in (java|ml) is imo better 10:09:09 I heard about all that books :) 10:09:32 but seriously: that expression translates just like (x == y ? 1 : 2) + (y == z ? 3: 4) in C 10:10:06 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-27-109.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:10:16 you need to generate temporaries to hold return values, etc just the same when compiling C as in Lisp 10:10:37 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-27-109.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:10:37 yeah. 10:10:43 -!- nowherman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:10:48 nikodemus, what about muchnick's advanced compiler implementation and design? 10:10:57 i like it 10:11:03 nowherman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:14 -!- beauty [n=beauty@83.231.11.63] has quit [Client Quit] 10:11:19 fatalnix1995_ [n=Fatalnix@spirit.georgix.info] has joined #lisp 10:11:36 but not a good first book 10:11:52 so Appel, then Muchnick? 10:11:53 grml, I was just about to pitch in on the error handling discussion on the ht development list, but decided to write some code instead. 10:11:59 i think appel gives a pretty nice grounding, though as usual you can ignore the chapters on parsing :) 10:12:01 -!- mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [] 10:12:03 minion: tell hjpark about LiSP 10:12:04 hjpark: have a look at LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 10:12:37 i didn't like Lisp in Small Pieces, but i'm in a minority there, i guess 10:13:05 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@spirit.georgix.info] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:15 nikodemus: I won't tell my wife. 10:13:35 :) 10:13:47 i blame denotational semantics 10:16:31 actually, I'm implementing simple lisp compiler with Ocaml. 10:16:59 At first, It's really easy to parsing Lisp and evaluating.. haha.. 10:17:23 whoa. 10:17:53 I upgraded to an SSD in my laptop a few days ago and sbcl compilation time feels /fast/ now. 10:17:56 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:18:06 But it's big hurdle translating to intermediate language.. phew.. 10:18:09 antifuchs: hey! 10:18:16 hi nikodemus (: 10:18:16 how're you doing? 10:18:36 caught a cold, so now I'm sitting aroudn at home and hacking on free software (: 10:18:51 I believe I still owe you a t-shirt 10:19:25 if you're coming to sbcl10, I could try and deliver it by hand (: 10:19:58 i *hope* i'm coming 10:20:25 hjpark, you can go through multiple intermediate languages if you like 10:20:40 Turtles. 10:20:50 Jafet: yeah.. 10:21:12 Jafet: Turtles? 10:22:54 all the way down 10:22:56 cool 10:23:25 ziga` [n=user@89.142.60.237] has joined #lisp 10:23:48 Someone make a compiler to LOGO already! 10:24:16 Jafet: oh, tell me about it please. 10:25:51 It? 10:26:20 ? 10:28:34 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:29:21 hjpark: That phrase usually expresses a wish for someone to write such a compiler. 10:30:22 It probably hasn't been made yet. I imagine it would use postscript as an IL 10:30:23 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.104.113] has joined #lisp 10:30:37 milaz [n=milaz@85.174.229.88] has joined #lisp 10:31:07 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:31:27 I got it :) thanks. 10:33:01 -!- borism [n=boris@213.35.232.215] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:46 -!- fawxtin`` [n=user@150.162.165.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:36:20 -!- milaz [n=milaz@85.174.229.88] has left #lisp 10:37:01 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:38:00 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@166.129.64.251] has quit [] 10:39:13 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 10:42:06 -!- billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:42:11 billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has joined #lisp 10:42:11 Jafet: .... scary thought 10:42:31 otoh, I can see LOGO->CL compiler 10:48:26 guess I have refactored hunchentoot request processing enough to let it handle errors in a user-overridable way. 10:49:55 borism [n=boris@213.35.232.215] has joined #lisp 10:50:13 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:55:33 nikodemus: hm, maybe I don't need that any more 10:58:34 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:56 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C7CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:04 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32E9F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:58 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-216-76.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 11:22:14 -!- nowherman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:22 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:23:13 nowherman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:39 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:26:47 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:27:00 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:30:47 kami [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 11:30:59 hello 11:31:42 Axius [n=ade@92.85.219.31] has joined #lisp 11:36:23 -!- wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077072191.netvigator.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:36:44 wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077072191.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:58 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:11 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:39 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15252.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:33 borism_ [n=boris@213.35.232.215] has joined #lisp 11:41:34 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.219.31] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:42:34 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 11:43:17 carlocci [n=carlocci@93.37.197.41] has joined #lisp 11:46:45 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-89.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:49:55 -!- carlocci [n=carlocci@93.37.197.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:52:13 -!- borism_ [n=boris@213.35.232.215] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:54:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:46 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 12:05:25 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:11:10 nikodemus: just looking at your raytracer - nice 12:11:24 thanks for sharing the code 12:11:59 you wait years for a clim app, and then two come along at once 12:12:58 *Krystof* is glad that nikodemus is one step ahead of him 12:13:14 Krystof: which is your clim app? 12:14:13 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:16:04 stephenry [n=user@cpc2-grnk1-0-0-cust818.renf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:32 nikodemus: you're SB-CGA looks very interesting. Thank you for the code archive! 12:19:15 minion: Thwap for mgr! 12:19:15 mgr: please see Thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 12:19:28 lol 12:19:40 By the way, here is a current windows-binary msi file for sbcl: http://matroid.org/flux/sbcl-1.0.32.msi 12:19:53 what's the procedure again to make it available at sbcl.sf.net? 12:20:38 hello robert 12:20:57 uh, am I blind? why? 12:21:49 mgr: "you're" SB-CGA? 12:22:16 hah, oh well.. 12:22:55 you're vs your is like :sym vs 'sym, once you convert it to string there's no difference :P 12:22:55 *mgr* hides. 12:23:40 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-89.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 12:24:34 *mgr* laughs. That mp3 is hilarious 12:25:33 michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 12:28:32 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d41a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:45 hello 12:29:33 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 12:30:39 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 12:31:14 hi 12:31:51 nunb [n=nundan@94.160.235.91] has joined #lisp 12:35:40 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-67-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:35:53 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:07 -!- stephenry [n=user@cpc2-grnk1-0-0-cust818.renf.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:14 -!- michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has quit [] 12:38:05 why is it when I define a package and I tell it to :use common-lisp and :export some symbols from it, that I get name-conflicts? I can fix them with the debugger asking me which package should use that symbol 12:38:07 michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 12:38:22 InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 12:38:30 and I'm not exporting common names, they're quite unlikely to exist in common-lisp. like x-and-0-board. 12:40:26 here is the file that is doing this: http://gitorious.org/ai-fun/ai-fun/blobs/master/x-and-0.lisp 12:40:34 when you are defining you symbols have you specified (in-package ...) at the top 12:40:44 you/your 12:40:54 yes, right after (defpackage) comes (in-package) 12:41:32 and you haven't previously created them in the cl package during the same session i assumed 12:41:58 no, I always test with a clean session. no .fas, no .lib, a fresh slime session and everything 12:42:33 (I still have to figure out a way to do the equivelent of make clean from slime) 12:43:23 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 12:43:46 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:44:12 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:44:46 -!- michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:47:27 mgr: you're welcome 12:48:45 ziga`: did you run it? 12:49:08 nikodemus: just browsing the code 12:49:10 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-84.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:50:32 bulibuta: I have seen people export uninterned symbol names, as in (:export #:foo #:bar) 12:51:40 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:51:56 what's the difference between #:foo and :foo when defining packages? 12:52:20 or in general 12:52:20 :D 12:52:28 the former doesn't get "FOO" interned into the keyword package 12:52:54 stassats`: is this beneficial in any way? 12:53:05 bulibuta: by the way, your parse-move has misleading indentation in the IF clause 12:53:20 any ideas on fine-grained timing approaches? 12:53:23 -!- billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has quit [] 12:53:26 as a matter of fact, it doesn't it interned anywhere, that's why it's called an uninterned symbol 12:53:33 ziga`: your keyword package has less symbols 12:53:41 minion, tell ziga` about pcl 12:53:43 ziga`: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 12:54:01 serichsen: I'll look, so I should put an # in front of the exports? 12:55:27 This saves a tiny bit of memory by not interning any symbols in the keyword package--the symbol can become garbage after DEFPACKAGE (or the code it expands into) is done with it. However, the difference is so slight that it really boils down to a matter of aesthetics. 12:55:54 unless you have thousands of them 12:55:59 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:56:02 aha I see 12:56:23 so generally just use #: ? 12:56:24 bulibuta: actually, I don't think that it should make a difference. 12:56:28 any gotchas? 12:56:48 no gotchas 12:57:01 bulibuta: you do have defined your package only once in your files, right? 12:57:24 ok great .. I've been wondering about : vs #: because people use both in defpackage like it's the same 12:58:41 serichsen: yes 12:58:45 only once 12:58:54 and I fixed the IF indention, thanks for spotting that 13:00:04 bulibuta: I just found it strange to find the defpackage form at the top of such a file. Usually, the defpackage is put in a separate file (like "package.lisp") that is loaded first. 13:00:34 hmm. I read otherwise, that's why I used it like that. 13:00:45 bulibuta: unless the whole program is in one file, of course 13:00:48 I thought in package.lisp should be put only the interface 13:00:59 to the entire package 13:01:10 I can try that, but I don't think that's the cause 13:01:10 bulibuta: the defpackage is the interface, no? 13:01:18 it is, but an internal one 13:01:31 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 13:01:56 bulibuta: you have multiple packages for your system? 13:02:02 yes 13:02:08 is that wrong? 13:02:12 bulibuta: no 13:02:16 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:34 bulibuta: I'm just trying to understand your file organization :) 13:03:29 well, its all here: http://gitorious.org/ai-fun/ai-fun/trees/master 13:03:45 basicly I have board-games and x-and-0 13:04:02 the latter is a package that needs some parts of board-games 13:04:15 others will come, like go, 5-in-a-row etc. 13:04:26 so I figured I'd put them in =/ packages 13:05:12 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.233] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:05:25 how can i get a funcallable setf equivalent 13:06:12 x2cast [n=alvaro@245.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:06:37 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:06:47 Guthur: that do you want to do? 13:06:55 s/that/what/ 13:07:07 (funcall #'(setf foo) value a b c) ? 13:07:14 but only for setf-functions 13:07:42 bulibuta: and your errors come when you load the test file? 13:08:48 bulibuta: I would either put a (in-package #:cl-user) at the top of the test file, or define a test package 13:08:49 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:10:56 serichsen: I will try that, thank yoou 13:10:57 you 13:14:40 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:14:49 sorry had to go afk there 13:16:20 polluting packages is also a headache if you use fuzzy completion, because it brings up the noise if they match 13:16:55 actually as it ends up i don't think i need it now, i wanted to be able to replace a setf with some functions, but i forgot i will probably always want to setf so replacement was pointless 13:18:04 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-25-128.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:20:40 -!- x2cast [n=alvaro@245.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 13:27:54 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:15 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.104.113] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:30:39 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:33:57 is this possible on 64bit linux?: cmucl -dynamic-space-size 5000M 13:34:09 wow, a Lisp compiler vendor that uses CSS in their website http://www.webweasel.com/lisp/index.htm 13:34:20 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.101.69] has joined #lisp 13:34:30 dmiles_afk: cmucl is 32-bit 13:34:49 32bit is probly enough then.. but can i build 64it? 13:35:09 -dynamic-space-size 2000M (should be enough) 13:35:13 sure, port it first 13:35:24 clapautius [n=me@188.26.53.228] has joined #lisp 13:35:33 ah i plan on giving it love.. but maybe not that much 13:36:49 the app is known to run on cmucl.. so gues it must run in 32bit env 13:38:02 CMUCL has run out of dynamic heap space (904 MB). 13:38:02 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-216-76.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:23 is that it's real limit? 13:39:03 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:22 oh i found it: -dynamic-space-size must be no greater than 1632 MBytes 13:39:31 dmiles_afk: increase it a cli 13:40:00 Star Saphire Common Lisp manual says it can use up to 8MB :-D 13:40:42 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:40:53 :) 13:40:55 they packed a Lisp implementation + an OK emacs clone into 2MB. not bad. 13:41:21 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109.184.200.13] has joined #lisp 13:43:14 LISP: (list-all-packages) 13:43:15 ("SYSTEM" "LISP" "USER" "KEYWORD") 13:43:17 LISP: *features* 13:43:19 (SAPIENS STAR SAPPHIRE) 13:43:29 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp035.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:49 does it work on wine? 13:44:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:44:50 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:44:53 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 13:45:54 and was 2mb impressive by the time? 13:46:41 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:46:53 1993, yes 13:47:19 it actually has some primitive CLOS, defmethod and defclass work ok 13:47:38 this is my third ancient common lisp that I unearthed by accident 13:48:27 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109.184.200.13] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:37 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-33-195.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 13:50:01 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:28 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@75.36.215.18] has joined #lisp 13:53:06 slyrus___ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:01 Axius [n=ade@92.85.219.31] has joined #lisp 13:54:02 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:54:02 -!- slyrus___ is now known as slyrus 13:56:25 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.101.69] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:01 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.103.103] has joined #lisp 13:58:18 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:58:24 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:39 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 13:58:56 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-33-195.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:59:47 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:42 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-33-195.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 14:03:04 yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-146-38.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 14:04:32 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:07:29 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest4148 14:07:59 ztzg_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-004-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:02 -!- yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-146-38.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:47 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 14:12:55 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:14:35 yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-146-38.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 14:17:50 segv [n=mb@p4FC1C7B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.219.31] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:23:20 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-33-195.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:54 billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has joined #lisp 14:25:18 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:29:51 -!- yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-146-38.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:30:08 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-173-209.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 14:33:37 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:35:36 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442618.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:36:01 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:41:15 davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has joined #lisp 14:48:20 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:49:42 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:51:26 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.84.250] has joined #lisp 14:53:09 Is there a way to test whether a symbol is exported? 14:53:40 LiamH: exported from where ? 14:53:43 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:53:47 clhs find-symbol 14:53:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_s.htm 14:53:56 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["Restarting Emacs"] 14:53:59 -!- Guest4148 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:54:54 fjsldk [i=c3353eed@gateway/web/freenode/x-uxrhionxiypisepx] has joined #lisp 14:54:54 That should be your basic building block. You may-or-may-not want to check all of the packages in the system (I don't know what your actual use-case is). 14:54:56 hi! 14:55:17 has anyone used ECL here? 14:55:19 nyef: That's what I'm looking for. 14:55:21 Thanks 14:55:51 is it complete and nice for learning? 14:55:51 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:56:41 fjsldk: no 14:57:03 My application is to cull dead code: if a symbol is (a) fboundp, (b) not exported from the package, and (c) not called, it's a good bet I can eliminate the function definition. 14:57:05 fjsldk: CCL or SBCL are much nicer 14:57:21 I like that is small and embbedable 14:57:44 yeah but I can read in some benchmarks that is not very fast 14:57:56 fjsldk: unless you really want to embed it in a C/C++ app, that's irrelevant 14:57:58 fjsldk: I used it before, when I wanted Lisp, but needed to fit within a C++ app framework. In general, I use CCL. 14:58:24 yes I want to use it for embeding plugins in a D app 14:58:30 SBCL not fast? That's a frightening thought, unless you're thinking about compile-time. 14:58:46 LiamH: Mind you don't kill debugging code. 14:59:21 nyef: Oh, I thought he was saying ECL was not fast. 14:59:29 nyef: I'm not going to blindly delete code, I just am looking for a candidate list. 14:59:34 Ah, I see. 14:59:38 Misparse on my part. 14:59:44 not sure, though. 14:59:48 sorry, I mean that *ECL* is not fast 14:59:54 LiamH: Ah, that makes sense, then. 15:00:02 *sellout* pumps his fist victoriously. 15:00:43 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:09 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:03:37 LiamH: http://paste.lisp.org/display/62226/ 15:04:03 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:04:30 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:04:50 fe[nl]ix: Hmm, nice. Why function-boundp instead of fboundp? 15:06:49 LiamH: to exclude macros 15:06:49 -!- fjsldk [i=c3353eed@gateway/web/freenode/x-uxrhionxiypisepx] has quit ["Page closed"] 15:07:14 fe[nl]ix: I'd also like to find out about unused macros. 15:07:32 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has joined #lisp 15:09:59 LiamH: in that case, modify that code to use FBOUNDP, and in unused-function-p add (endp (swank-backend:who-macroexpands sym)) 15:11:53 LiamH: and check only after compiling all thine code with (debug 3), otherwise you'll get false negatives 15:13:01 Well I'm noticing a flaw in my thinking. If a function is called only by e.g. funcall, apply, then it doesn't get registered in the who-calls list. 15:13:16 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:13:24 fe[nl]ix: Thanks, will do. 15:13:35 pjb [n=user@96.Red-79-149-1.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:58 -!- cvandusen [n=cvanduse@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:23:37 -!- nowherman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:37 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 15:23:50 nowherman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:59 manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has joined #lisp 15:25:05 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:33:38 LiamH: So you also need to watch for uses of #' ? 15:34:12 nyef: Worse; ' happens too 15:34:46 I'm combining with an rgrep (manually) 15:35:33 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:36:39 It seems that who-calls doesn't register a usage in a defparameter. 15:40:53 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:42:05 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:42:47 [Jackal] [n=[Jackal]@118.94.84.201] has joined #lisp 15:45:03 Quick Q as a new CCL user - is CCL the best CL for *embedding* in another app, vs. something like the aforementioned ECL or some of the other Lisp-2-C's more or less designed for this purpose? 15:45:37 Summermute: ECL was designed rather explicitly with purpose of embedding 15:45:44 I think ECL is your best bet there. 15:45:44 CCL is a standalone lisp 15:46:07 Yes, that's what I thought re: ECL. Hence my surprise reading the comparison with SBCL and CCL. 15:46:22 ECL afaik is easy to embed, for the simple reason of being inside a shared lib 15:46:39 -!- deepfire is now known as Ashpool 15:49:08 Summermute: the comparison with SBCL and CCL was only until he mentioned he wanted to embed. 15:50:39 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.217.217] has joined #lisp 15:50:52 Summermute: ECL is probably also the second most portable, I thinl 15:50:54 *think 15:51:53 -!- pjb [n=user@96.Red-79-149-1.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:53:30 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-35-10.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:57:58 vbmaster [n=vbmaster@213.13.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:58:16 p_l, after what? 15:58:30 Ashpool: I guess after clisp, which is like weed ;-) 15:59:16 ECL in theory gets similar level of portability if you're compiling a whole image without various options 15:59:32 p_l: I think you mean _a_ weed ... clisp is not particularly intoxicating. 15:59:32 *p_l* goes to check if there's some more free conference food 15:59:49 are there any built-in stack/queues in lisp? 16:00:05 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:19 vbmaster: There's PUSH and POP on lists. 16:00:34 oh, allright, that will do 16:01:34 or extendable vectors. 16:02:11 pkhuong, are they more efficient? 16:02:58 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-72-66-64-165.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:25 vbmaster: depends on your usage. There are scarce few situations in which cons lists aren't dominated by another data structure though. 16:03:34 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:04:52 pkhuong, I'm gonna use the stack to process a depth first search (the thing can get big) 16:05:42 I guess for a pure stack, CONS list should work okay 16:06:04 p_l: but why use that instead of an adjustable vector and vector-push-extend? 16:06:21 *Ashpool* finds commands like "checkout" and "reset" too confusing and decides use names like git-set-head-index-tree and git-set-branch-index-tree 16:06:57 dysinger [n=dysinger@32.177.241.14] has joined #lisp 16:09:17 nikodemus: ping? Now that we have dedicated code pages on gencgc, how about rounding up sizes so that constants and code are aligned on 64 bytes? 16:10:13 pkhuong: i'm not opposed 16:11:25 *pkhuong* grabs pen & paper to reverse engineer that maze of offsets 16:11:49 this seems stupid: (push 2 '(1 2 3)) doesn't work but (setf list '(1 2 3)) (push 2 list) does... 16:11:57 *nikodemus* has learned that raylisp blows stack on x86 -- teaches me to "not release" things... 16:12:26 minion: tell vbmaster about pcl-book 16:12:27 vbmaster: look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:13:40 yes, i know that book... thank you 16:14:54 have you read the first three chapters or thereabout? 16:15:47 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:55 nikodemus, I know the book, I haven't read it though. I only know scheme but now I have to do a college project in lisp and I don't have that a lot of time to read... 16:19:35 vbmaster: Then instead of saying "this seems stupid" I suggest you use something closer to "I am ignorant". 16:19:47 yes, you're right 16:20:06 vbmaster: What did you expect the result of (push 2 '(1 2 3)) to be? 16:20:10 yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-124-116.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:20:24 vbmaster: do you have slime? 16:20:31 in my ignorance I would expect it to be (2 1 2 3) 16:20:35 nikodemus, yes 16:20:38 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-173-209.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:21:04 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:05 hit C-Enter with the caret on top of the open paren in (push 1 '(2 3 4)) 16:21:15 vbmaster: push modifies its arguments (it's a macro), so did you seriously expect the constant list '(1 2 3) to be modified? Or did you just expect (2 1 2 3) as a return value? Because in the latter case you use cons, even in Scheme. 16:22:00 then do the same for (push 1 x) 16:22:05 beach, yes, the latter one.. omg, that was stupid of me... 16:22:23 vbmaster: Furthermore, the documentation says that the second argument of push must be a "place", and a constant value like the result of evaluating '(1 2 3) is not a place. 16:23:01 vbmaster: Not stupid. Just ignorant. 16:23:24 beach, yep 16:24:13 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-2-49.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:25:07 paw` [n=user@78.69.84.129] has joined #lisp 16:25:56 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 16:27:59 vbmaster: remember to check CLHS when the function is working different than expected :-) 16:28:26 sbcl heap limit is 64bit right? 16:28:31 p_l, yep, thanks 16:29:25 fusss: i found out to run the c-tranlator for my app it will use cmucl.. just cant run ;) 16:30:02 i guess it needs 4gb .. whatever that actually means 16:30:25 but minimum req is allegro 64 16:30:35 or thats suggested to run it 16:31:06 so.. i wondering if it can use sbcl instead if i smooth out the little bits of the lisp 16:32:26 SBCL on x86-64 seems to use full 64bit address space 16:33:50 ok .. i guess one verion 1.0.29 does 64 according to http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/platform-table.html 16:34:28 p_l: ok good.. then its worth seeing if i can get the app to run on it 16:34:32 billitch_ [n=billitch@113.25.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:14 some old ports to 64bit platforms didn't do any actual 64bit work, like the Alpha one 16:35:27 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:37 just didnt crash burn on 64bi linux eh 16:36:11 hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774745.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:36:40 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:46 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:39:39 -!- yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-124-116.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:49 p_l: only Alpha had mixed 32/64. 16:40:05 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442618.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:05 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 16:40:15 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-124-116.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:41:03 pkhuong: wasn't it something related to it being the first port to a pure 64bit system? (the 32bit mode is just a compiler/api portability trick) 16:41:28 (sb-unix::unix-maybe-prepend-current-directory "") ? is this gone now? 16:41:34 question... in sb-sprof's call graph, is there a significance to the ordering of the calling functions? 16:42:29 -!- billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 16:42:46 SB-UNIX has never been a public or supported package 16:43:07 looks like all the codes going for is the (current-dirrectory) 16:43:10 Adlai: the outdented function is the one that's being described. Above are callers, below callees. 16:43:22 Same as gprof's cycle output. 16:43:28 pkhuong, right, but is there any significance to the ordering of the callers? 16:43:45 #+Allegro (excl:current-directory) #+CMU (unix:unix-current-directory) etc 16:44:38 I don't think so. The numbers would be more interesting anyway. 16:45:01 is the TIME's cons counter "exact" on sbcl? 16:45:10 lhz: no. 16:45:59 dmiles_afk: (truename (sb-posix:getcwd)) 16:46:08 pkhuong, ok, thank you 16:46:14 nikodemus: thankyou 16:46:14 dmiles_afk: or (cffi:foreign-funcall "getcwd" :string) 16:46:17 pkhuong, thanks! 16:49:54 yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-228-35.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:50:34 -!- billitch_ [n=billitch@113.25.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:11 nyquist` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:51:17 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:51:47 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:49 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-72-66-64-165.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:54:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:55:13 cyberhuman [n=xvro@inet20909nc-3s.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:56:30 neato This is SBCL 1.0.30-2.fc12 16:56:49 Pavitra [n=pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:53 i was about to try to build it 16:57:26 noticing i cant (USE-PACKAGE "SB-POSIX") .. maybe i messed up my sbcl in the past 16:57:53 not that my code wound (use-package..) but seeing why package was misisng 16:58:11 not that my code would (use-package..) but seeing the package was missing 17:00:30 building from CVS now.. it did say something about 64.. thats good sing 17:00:34 sign 17:00:46 pipa_ [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-248.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 17:01:01 i just dont know how it will live to happy side-by-side the Fedora version 17:01:33 well i guess sitting on top of the Fedora version 17:03:16 -!- Ashpool is now known as _deepfire 17:04:48 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 17:06:01 oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.150.87] has joined #lisp 17:06:07 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:28 Given a list foo of unknown length ('contents 'of 'foo), is there an easy way to call (do-something-with 'random 'junk 'and 'contents 'of 'foo)? 17:06:47 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-124-116.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:37 Pavitra: I think you want apply, but first I'd brush up on how quoting works. 17:07:47 ok 17:13:20 Adrinael_ [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 17:14:55 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:25 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:16:43 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.73.102] has left #lisp 17:17:35 Axius [n=ade@92.84.26.236] has joined #lisp 17:18:21 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.118.137] has joined #lisp 17:18:26 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.118.137] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:07 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.26.236] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:19:57 nikodemus: man... That code doesn't make any sense, unless the trace-table is empty (which it always is :) 17:20:20 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:20:40 -!- billstclair [wws@clozure-5A39CB22.taconic.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 17:20:50 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:09 tritchey [n=tritchey@74-95-9-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 17:24:04 pkhuong: Heh. I remember trying to use the trace-table machinery for something at one point. Never got too far with it, though. 17:24:22 -!- yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-228-35.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:24 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-172-227.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:59 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-102.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:25:13 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-228-35.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 17:25:18 I'm fairly certain there's an off by one in the padding too. 17:26:48 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@inet20909nc-3s.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:27:12 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 17:27:13 pkhuong: where in the source are you? 17:27:28 Yeah, there was something wierd in the way the data I tried stuffing into the table was laid out, but I didn't try very hard at figuring it out. 17:27:34 (i don't claim to understand trace-table stuff at all) 17:27:37 okflo [n=okflo@91-115-88-153.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:28:22 nikodemus: code component assembly. 17:28:50 Or at least the names don't correspond to the real layout anymore. 17:29:41 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:30:52 -!- pipa_ [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-248.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:28 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-230-194.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:35:01 -!- okflo [n=okflo@91-115-88-153.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 17:35:14 pkhuong: src/compiler/? 17:35:39 yup 17:35:44 pkhuong: I blame bit-rot, since the trace-table stuff has clearly been unused in ages. 17:35:59 (It's for gengc anyways, isn't it?) 17:36:35 dump-code-object? 17:36:55 make-core-component, actually. 17:36:58 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:37:06 i thought it was used? 17:37:27 but maybe there is just a bizarro dependency on something that made it look like that 17:37:32 nikodemus: The compiler never generates anything to be put into the trace-tables. 17:37:41 oh 17:38:11 Most of the machinery is still there, but the critical bit is packing the collected entries into a binary form for attaching to the component, and that's a documented no-op. 17:39:40 do you understand what it is supposed to be used for? 17:40:23 Originally? Something to do with telling the GC and possibly debugger about where the procedure call and function prologue/epilogue boundaries are. 17:40:50 At least, that's what all of the trace-table junk in the x86oid backends is about. 17:41:30 Massive bit-rot, though, considering that at least some of the maintainers knew that the trace-table stuff was being ignored. 17:41:32 Axius [n=ade@92.84.26.236] has joined #lisp 17:41:55 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@74-95-9-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 17:42:21 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:43:20 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 17:43:22 did you have a future use in mind for it? 17:43:44 Table-driven unwind. 17:44:04 It'd be a useful place to stuff the required tables. 17:44:07 right -- and would indeed be nice... 17:44:32 Were it not for that, you might have seen a patch-set from me for getting rid of it a long time ago. 17:44:58 i wonder if it would not be easier to add them back when needed 17:45:10 Might be. 17:45:32 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-25-128.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:46:32 Hrm. Looks like all of my audio-processing stuff in SBCL involves either spitting out files of raw samples or FFI to a library that does synthesis and output in C. 17:46:43 redblue [i=star@ppp014.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:47:52 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:49:50 Heh. "/* All the docs say EPIPE, so of course it's ESTRPIPE. */" 17:52:08 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-2-49.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:18 nyquist`` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:53:30 -!- nyquist` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:54:57 nyef: but then couldn't you use the unboxed constant segment instead of the trace table hackery? 17:55:40 I have no idea, really. The trace-table just looked convenient. 17:56:13 i'm in favor of nuking unused cruft, even if it looks like it *might* come useful in the next 3 years... 17:56:42 we can always add it back later, and will probably understand the system as a whole better after the exercise 17:56:51 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:57:14 Krystof: hi! would you cry if pkhuong gave trace-tables the axe? 17:58:27 pkhuong / Krystof: do either of you know why MAKE-SINGLE-FLOAT and SINGLE-FLOAT-BITS (and DOUBLE-*) use (SIGNED-BYTE 32) instead of unsigned? 17:58:28 Given that argument, I'm not going to oppose removing them. 17:58:56 nyef: you could promise to repurpose them *real*soon*now* :) 17:59:05 That's not happening. 17:59:28 nikodemus: Well... For bit hackery, having the sign bit be a sign bit (even if the rest of the representation is sign/magnitude) does make a bit of sense. 18:00:05 pkhuong: hum. i've mostly used them for serialization, and i always want unsigned stuff 18:00:28 so for packing i need to use logand, and for unpacking i need a branch :/ 18:00:44 (or at least i can't see how to do it without a branch) 18:01:10 same here (but you don't need a branch, I don't think, it's just ugly). 18:01:15 dmiles pasted "i just rebuildt sbcl/ran test/built docs/installed and I get.." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90392 18:01:33 Does any backend do sign tests on floats with FOO-FLOAT-BITS? 18:01:41 (require :sb-posix) 18:01:55 dmiles_afk: (require :sb-posix) first, as it's a contrib and not part of the base system. 18:01:59 thanx.. i will not try to tortue too much 18:02:12 reading the docs might help too... :) 18:02:30 pkhuong: dunno 18:02:33 yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 18:03:00 nikodemus pasted "unpacking -- how to remove the branch?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90393 18:03:22 nikodemus: I have absolutely no idea what a trace table is for 18:03:42 I would quite like make-single-float to accept either signed or unsigned (and similarly double) 18:03:49 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:04:09 All of the supporting documentation I've seen says that trace-tables are for gc, specifically gengc, support. 18:04:11 would you be opposed to exporting it and foo-float-bits? 18:04:36 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:49 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:07:01 Whuh? cl-alsa includes a general-problem-solver implementation?!? 18:07:07 pkhuong annotated #90393 "no branch!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90393#1 18:07:20 nyef: for configuration? 18:07:24 Yeah. 18:07:44 *nikodemus* is awed 18:07:47 As a whole, cl-alsa appears to be junk. 18:07:50 bit-fu! 18:07:52 -!- yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-228-35.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:08:05 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@85.165.69.172] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:08:58 apropos, we should tell disassembler about inline constants 18:09:00 nikodemus: there's something that tickles my memory about floating point on alpha being slightly weird (or non-IEEE) 18:09:02 It only appears to support 16-bit integer samples for playback. The code style is a disaster and clearly hails from scheme naming conventions, etc. 18:09:14 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.26.236] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:09:29 so the question is whether foo-float-bits and make-foo-float take an ieee representation or a machine representation 18:09:51 Good evening! 18:09:53 document then as ieee on x86 and x86-64, and machine elsewhere? 18:09:59 Hello beach. 18:10:22 oh, ah. i misunderstoof 18:10:33 If memory serves, the alpha architecture has both VAX and IEEE float instructions and formats, and if a chip only supports one it runs the other under emulation. 18:10:36 IEEE doesn't specify the representation, I don't think. 18:10:52 I think it does. 18:10:57 I used to teach that stuff. 18:11:12 I think 754 specifies single and double and says that there may be other float types 18:11:13 It specifies that there's a sign bit, n bits of significand and m of exponent 18:11:50 pkhuong: You are saying, the order is not specified? 18:11:55 Damn. sb-simple-audio is based on OSS, so that's out... 18:11:57 beach: right. 18:12:07 interesting 18:12:20 re inline constants, we'd need some debug info for that, and a lot for solid support. 18:14:02 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:14:28 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:14:30 section 5.4 of the draft of 754-200x that I can see specifies a binary interchange format 18:14:38 we could write the offsets into trace-table :P 18:14:42 pipa [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-89.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 18:15:30 we could implement that, and I think that probably on all platforms that's the obvious thing 18:15:46 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-84.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:16:01 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:16:55 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:57 -!- pipa [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-89.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:17:10 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.84.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:22 Krystof: and is the format parameterised on endianness? 18:17:47 yes 18:17:54 the sign bit is the MSB 18:18:21 this is http://www.validlab.com/754R/nonabelian.com/754/comments/Q754.129.pdf 18:18:26 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:18:58 nikodemus: I don't think I've said this in your presence yet -- I find using launchpad tolerable, so thank you for taking that initiative 18:21:08 nikodemus: I'm in favour of nuking, if only to reimplement in due time. 18:24:47 FINISH THEM 18:25:33 I wonder if I should specify a timezone for sbcl10 registration deadlines 18:26:27 nah, just use the western-most timezone (Hawaii?) 18:26:39 -!- paw` [n=user@78.69.84.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:29 or admit that because there's no payment, and no real arrangements to be made, the deadline is purely cosmetic? 18:27:45 Same thing. 18:27:46 (actually, I do have to think about booking a meal somewhere, so firm numbers would be useful, ditherers) 18:28:15 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.92.25] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:30:25 beach: american samoas? 18:30:45 *Krystof* contemplates american samosas 18:30:47 bleah 18:31:18 I would bet Vietnamese samosas to be better. Just guessing, though. 18:33:38 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:35:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:43 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.176.74] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:03 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:38:27 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:39:38 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:40:28 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-214-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:58 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:49 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:44:20 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:47 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:46:37 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:46:53 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:31 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-243-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:57:30 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:10 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:59:01 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:12 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:59:18 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:59:57 -!- [Jackal] [n=[Jackal]@118.94.84.201] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:00:31 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:47 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:00:53 george [n=george@189.107.176.74] has joined #lisp 19:01:20 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.217.217] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 19:02:57 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:16 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:03:27 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:03:38 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:04:58 Axius [n=ade@92.84.26.236] has joined #lisp 19:05:50 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:19 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:07:00 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:08:15 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:44 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.26.236] has quit [Client Quit] 19:10:51 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 19:11:20 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest97826 19:11:20 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:44 Axius [n=ade@92.84.26.236] has joined #lisp 19:15:03 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.26.236] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:04 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:20:27 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-0-141.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:41 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:05 -!- yaroslav_h1 [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:23:49 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:25:02 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:03 -!- leadnose [i=leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 19:25:27 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:28:53 _rash7 [n=rash@117.196.160.67] has joined #lisp 19:31:02 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:31:40 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:40 clhs assoc 19:31:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_assocc.htm 19:32:15 yaroslav_h [n=Yaroslav@109-184-181-15.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 19:32:37 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:37:01 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:38:48 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:39:55 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:42:33 -!- _rash7 [n=rash@117.196.160.67] has left #lisp 19:42:49 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:45:43 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:12 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:28 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has joined #lisp 19:49:03 -!- vbmaster [n=vbmaster@213.13.234.156] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:50:47 do we use %simple-fun-self for anything but debugging/introspection purposes? 19:52:15 I thought we did for something. 19:52:39 Closures or redefinition, maybe? 19:52:47 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:52:57 -!- Guest97826 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:53:00 Closures, yes... But for simple funs? 19:53:41 Yes, so that the same operation provides a useful answer for both. 19:53:52 right, but that's still debugging/introspection. 19:54:08 Dunno then. 19:54:15 Either way, doesn't really matter for me. 19:54:43 Oh, I know why this build is failing now! I'm patching the x86 version and building on x86-64. 19:56:57 (fop-normal-load / fop-maybe-cold-load must die!) 19:57:43 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.150.87] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:45 Right.. Fasls are *not* going to load when you add a slot to siple funs (: 19:58:22 Heh. Not even looking at that bit. I'm changing the representation of fixups in fasls. 19:58:31 043FA1C0: .ENTRY (LAMBDA NIL)() / 200: 8F4508 POP QWORD PTR [RBP+8] 19:58:45 Is that a fully aligned prologue? (: 19:59:05 it's not over until the boinkmarks prove that it's worth it 19:59:16 also, until you run several gcs 20:00:42 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:04:34 There's an off by one in the way the constants are padded, so core bloatage isn't as bad as it could be ;) 20:05:04 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp014.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:18 I always wondered why the first constant slot was sometimes a 0 and sometimes an unbound marker. 20:09:13 nostoi [n=nostoi@80.31.168.76] has joined #lisp 20:12:36 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-25-128.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:14:48 pixpop [n=pixpop@lgb-static-208.57.134.214.mpowercom.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:58 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:15:28 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@lgb-static-208.57.134.214.mpowercom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:18:40 wow, this thread is eternal http://lemonodor.com/archives/2002/02/common_lisp_the.html 20:18:48 unbelievable 20:19:26 Believable. 20:19:37 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 20:20:22 francogrex [n=user@91.180.220.32] has joined #lisp 20:21:37 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:22:34 don't people lurk around a site a bit before they start contributing or confession to ailments? 20:22:56 No, that'd make too much sense. 20:23:01 okflo [n=okflo@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 20:23:16 Ah, finally! A build that survives genesis. 20:23:22 oh well. gtg 20:23:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.4/20091016092926]"] 20:23:57 -!- george [n=george@189.107.176.74] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:32 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has quit [Client Quit] 20:28:49 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-214-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:29:13 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 20:29:16 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:13 -!- okflo [n=okflo@194.48.133.8] has quit [] 20:31:42 optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279398185.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:33:53 pipa [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-101.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 20:35:00 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-3-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:35:02 francogr` [n=user@51.108-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:35:26 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.180.220.32] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:36:05 -!- francogr` is now known as francogrex 20:36:41 I got disconnected 20:37:27 I didn't see if anypone replied to my query 20:37:30 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 20:37:36 francogrex: what was your query? 20:37:37 no query was issued 20:37:40 my connection is very poor these days 20:37:57 ah ok; it's something silly really 20:38:34 in (make-array) one can declare the element-type but how can one declare that the array need to be a simple-array? does it have to be from outside with a "let" or can it be inside the (make-array) function? 20:39:39 my connection seems to be dropping again; 20:39:41 coerce 20:39:44 maybe? :S 20:39:51 it will be simple if you don't specify fill-pointer and adjustability 20:39:56 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 20:40:04 ah ok 20:40:24 or displacement 20:40:47 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has joined #lisp 20:41:15 I don't sepcify anything but initial element and element type 20:41:34 but the assembly seems quite poor 20:41:36 then it's type will be T 20:42:21 oh, i missed "but" 20:42:30 francogrex: lispaste? (assuming this is on sbcl) 20:42:32 read it as "about" 20:42:52 francogrex: what's upgraded-array-element-type of your type? 20:44:16 ok lisppaste I will do it now 20:45:00 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:45:45 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Success] 20:48:13 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:49:06 simply: http://paste.lisp.org/display/90400 20:49:39 rares1 [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:47 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-67-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:11 stassats: it will always be fixnum 20:51:22 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-8.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:51:56 what's poor about its assembly? 20:52:06 -!- rares1 is now known as rares 20:52:12 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:53:01 the boxed_regions; Didier Vierna has in its paper assembly code from make-array that is much less cluttered 20:54:29 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.146.200] has quit [Client Quit] 20:55:21 francogrex: you didn't paste the assembly you get -- but what you get there is what you get 20:55:31 Would any SBCL hacker care to comment on http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/commitdiff/db884563f2a0c6b0f017318a242623ebccbc8f85 ? 20:55:35 if you want faster, don't use a multidimensional array 20:55:36 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 20:55:55 multidimensional arrays in sbcl always have an extra indirection 20:56:21 nyef: what does "slightly more complexity" mean? 20:56:22 but a CSE pass would be greatly appreciated! 20:57:08 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:57:20 optikalmouse: Instead of (kind (pop-stack) in a LET clause in about four places, it's (kind (car (rassoc (pop-stack) sb-vm:fixup-kind-alist))). 20:57:26 ncognito [n=richard@75-151-75-13-Lakecounty.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:37 -!- Retardedpope [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:58:12 Most of that additional complexity could be eliminated by means of a helper function to do the lookup. 20:58:13 nikodemus: ok 20:58:21 nyef: right, so (defun pop-kind () ...) (: 20:58:56 pkhuong: No, I'd rather have something in sb!vm that did the lookup from an integer, so I could then use it in genesis as well. 20:59:24 nyef: is (the fixnum (pop-stack)) should allow the compiler to use %RASSOC-EQ :) 21:00:08 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:17 nikodemus: Would an explicit :test #'eq suffice for that as well? 21:00:26 rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:35 sure, just uglier 21:01:00 (assuming you hide the declaration in some abstraction) 21:01:12 :test #'eq would be less code. 21:01:16 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 21:01:44 If you're going to have that helper function then it doesn't quite matter which you use, does it? 21:01:50 true 21:02:04 (And it almost makes sense to have said helper in parms.lisp.) 21:02:40 leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:02:56 nyef: also, this seems like a good place to use DEFGLOBAL 21:03:18 *nikodemus* is a dogfood pusher 21:03:20 *nyef* notes that nobody has yet said "no, don't do this". 21:03:37 nyef: the downside seems negligible. 21:04:48 This is, of course, part of a plot to destroy fop-normal-load and fop-maybe-cold-load by redesigning the set of FOPs to make them unnecessary. 21:05:27 i quite like it 21:05:36 -!- ncognito [n=richard@75-151-75-13-Lakecounty.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 21:05:43 your patch, that is -- not fop-stuff :) 21:06:54 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 21:07:09 oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.121.220] has joined #lisp 21:07:10 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [Client Quit] 21:08:21 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-83-56.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:22 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 21:08:42 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [Client Quit] 21:09:03 nyef: how large do the integers get? 21:09:31 dagnachew [n=dagnache@173.179.220.230] has joined #lisp 21:10:07 ncognito [n=richard@75-151-75-13-Lakecounty.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:34 erm, that was a stupid question, nevermind ;p 21:10:44 I think they get as large as five. 21:10:57 ... Four. 21:11:19 sounds like the opposite of large then 21:12:16 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:13:09 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-4-89.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:16:06 rares [n=rares@174-22-225-229.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:19 -!- francogrex [n=user@51.108-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:17:45 carlocci [n=carlocci@93.37.217.217] has joined #lisp 21:18:05 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@95.35.240.87] has joined #lisp 21:19:32 Okay, so the general impression I'm getting is that I should add in the two functions to do the actual fixum-name <-> numeric code lookups and then commit to CVS. 21:20:23 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:40 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 21:21:16 I just spent 20 minutes trying to debug a build failure. Turns out I was asserting something patently false. 21:22:03 only 20 minutes? 21:22:24 That's almost 3 builds. 21:22:44 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@80.31.168.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:22:59 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-214-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:02 Heh. A couple of my build failures were because I was expecting that code/target-vm was built for the host as well as the target (oops). 21:24:07 pkhuong: wow 21:24:31 optikalmouse: Not necessarily that impressive: If it's a build failure then it could have failed very early. 21:25:04 *nikodemus* joins the broken build club 21:25:21 pkhuong: that's only 20 minutes being confused about something 21:25:48 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 21:25:50 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:27:58 Krystof: this is pkhuong we're talking about! for him being confused about something for 20min is like santa being a week late :) 21:28:54 he must be young, still 21:30:23 Krystof: working on that too. 21:30:32 multitasking 21:30:58 (the `humourist' in me wants to say "a young woman, then") 21:31:02 -!- pipa [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-101.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:32 *nikodemus* admires your restraint 21:32:08 ... I think that most of the fop-normal-load / fop-maybe-cold-load stuff actually just falls out if genesis commits certain things to core "lazily". 21:32:18 Most notably, strings. 21:34:14 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.121.220] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:30 oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.40.111] has joined #lisp 21:42:35 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-214-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:44:49 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:45:08 segoe [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-anfqbtixnxmqajuk] has joined #lisp 21:45:18 pipa [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-201.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 21:45:21 hi 21:47:34 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:48:36 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:48:59 -!- joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [] 21:53:39 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:54:13 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["Asta-la byebye"] 21:54:24 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:54:39 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@173.179.220.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:54:54 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@95.35.240.87] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:30 -!- clapautius [n=me@188.26.53.228] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:01:36 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.40.111] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:05:27 thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:12 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 22:06:39 whoppix_ [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:06:51 borism_ [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 22:08:35 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:35 clapautius [i=me@188.26.53.187] has joined #lisp 22:09:33 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:41 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:41 -!- whoppix_ [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:21 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.103.103] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 22:11:13 -!- ncognito [n=richard@75-151-75-13-Lakecounty.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 22:13:20 -!- borism [n=boris@213.35.232.215] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:52 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.60.237] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:15:41 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-126-110.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:15:42 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@75.36.215.18] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:16:45 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:18:56 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-4-89.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:00 -!- clapautius [i=me@188.26.53.187] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:26 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1B17D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:46 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1B17D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:20 -!- segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1B17D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:02 qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-nagdtsntgrfdiifl] has joined #lisp 22:32:11 which lisp for a beginner? 22:32:22 sbcl? gcl? 22:33:07 not gcl. 22:33:09 qed: I started with sbcl, but you'd be probably better off with scheme ;) 22:33:24 weirdo [i=weirdo4@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:33:34 since it seems like a simpler dialect 22:34:00 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:31 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1B17D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:39 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C7B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:57 dmiitri [n=dmitri@227.165.8.67.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:09 scheme on osx? 22:36:40 fuck shit cock. 22:36:41 common lisp is just as simple 22:36:44 qed: decide which you want to learn first. They're not exactly like coke and pepsi. 22:36:52 *weirdo* pissed with everything getting dumbed down for the proles 22:37:13 i think ill go with scheme 22:37:25 for the simple fact id like to work on the SICP 22:38:16 sicp is overrated 22:38:34 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:38:55 I've had good experience with gambit for scheme, but that experience was surely biased. There's a SWANK backend too, if you want to use SLIME. 22:39:55 i bet half the contribs don't work 22:40:06 no presentations, no inspector. shit sucks. 22:40:18 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-71-111.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:40:31 qed: have you programmed before? 22:41:09 redblue [i=star@ppp073.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:41:13 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( that's a good question ) 22:42:03 weirdo: so why don't you stop whining and go make them work? 22:42:23 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:42:31 stassats`, now why would i? 22:42:34 stassats`: 'cause he doesn't actually care. don't feed the troll ;p 22:43:59 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:45:28 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:45:44 zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:48:44 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 22:48:46 -!- carlocci [n=carlocci@93.37.217.217] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:54 qed: to begin with programming, or to begin with Lisp? 22:56:47 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:25 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.235] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:02:38 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-25-128.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:02:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A832C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:02:45 -!- pipa [n=pipa@ip-213-49-126-201.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:20 serichsen: Sometimes they don't know themselves. Recently, someone submitted a pretty bad CL program to me, and when I gave my remarks he submitted his C++ version, presumably to show me that he knew *some* programming language, but the C++ was just as bad as the CL version. 23:07:52 heh 23:08:35 well, I give anyone the benefit of the doubt at first :) 23:09:26 i have macros passed as the body of a macro call, it complains about quote appearing more than once, how to avoid? 23:09:44 serichsen: Sure, me too, but it must be hard for someone to submit code to me, thinking he is an expert, only to have it totally crushed by someone like me. 23:10:04 Guthur: show code, I don't know what you mean by "passed" 23:10:25 beach: you can be merciless and smile at the same time :) 23:10:26 Guthur: You need to lisppaste your code for anyone to understand. 23:10:28 Guthur: There are two methods. One is to not do that. The other is to study the problem until you truly understand what's going on, and then you'll be able to make it work properly. 23:11:23 nyef you know you really shouldn't bother, your comments are never helpful 23:12:02 serichsen: I am known to send "dry" comments, like "do this" "don't do that". To the vietnamese students, that can be hard to take as I understand it. 23:12:09 Guthur: how is anyone supposed to be helpful with such a confusing question? 23:12:14 serichsen: to begin with lisp 23:12:21 dang` [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:28 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:12:28 beach ya once in awhile its ok 23:12:43 but frankly it's got old in that case 23:12:44 Perhaps it's that there is a class of problems for which I supply helpful comments and a class of problems for which I don't, and you tend to come up with the latter class of problems. 23:12:56 s/and you/and that you/. 23:13:07 Raptelan_ [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:08 Guthur: That's a pretty bad insult to nyef, that he might not deserve. 23:13:11 -!- Raptelan_ [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:44 beach probably it did feel a little sharp, i admit 23:14:07 beach, my favorite English teacher in highschool had a reputation for scathing comments... apparently once a student got an essay back with red Xs spanning each page, and the first word ("the") circled in green -> "Good start." 23:14:11 Guthur: instead of bickering, why don't you explain what you are actually trying to do and what you are doing that's not working? 23:14:15 Guthur: It is safe to err on the polite side on IRC. 23:14:39 i read the bipolar lisp programmer -- ive been messing with clojure a lot lately and read the bipolar lisp programmer, and umm, that's me, so i thought i should get back to my bipolar roots bey learning some lisp 23:14:59 holy shell lag 23:15:05 Adlai: Interesting, I probably would be a little harsher than that. 23:15:18 holy escaped backspace character 23:15:20 i have nested macros 23:15:31 Guthur: macros are expanded one at a time 23:15:36 Guthur: What is a nested macro? 23:15:40 where is this nesting? 23:15:53 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:15:56 "Nested" as in macro-defining macros, as in macros that are intended to be used in combination, or something else? 23:16:17 or a macro that expands into another macro? 23:16:38 or a recursive macro that expands into an invocation of the same macro? 23:16:41 Ah, right, that's the something else I was trying to remember. 23:16:51 ah sorry my bad 23:16:55 what is scheme48? 23:16:55 (whose expansion includes an invocation, more accurately) 23:17:04 george [n=george@189.107.186.70] has joined #lisp 23:17:15 I've definately done the latter with a tale of two once-onlys (once-onlies?). 23:17:30 nyef: "definitely" 23:17:30 it was a strange typo, i didn't notice 23:17:32 qed: you'll probably get better advice about scheme implementations from people who actually use scheme... 23:17:37 beach, he had worse -- he once gave another student back their final paper once with only one comment: "I've stepped in puddles deeper than this shit" 23:17:38 qed: what's google? 23:17:51 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2bc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:10 serichsen: Thanks. That's a rather persistent bug in my thought-to-text system. 23:18:19 Guthur, can you paste the macro(s)? 23:18:26 qed: Something that would be more appropriate to ask about in #scheme. 23:18:27 qed: pick any old scheme implementation 23:18:30 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:41 qed: or just pick SBCL and start using the language 23:18:56 Guthur: you really should explain what you are trying to do at some point 23:19:06 you won't learn much by stalling on the choice 23:19:08 Adlai: Sounds like a bad teacher. 23:19:08 the problem was this (defmacro mymacro (parm ( &body).... 23:19:11 minion, please tell qed about that-dead-seqy-boox 23:19:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``that-dead-seqy-boox''. 23:19:16 blarghl 23:19:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:21 minion, please tell qed about that-dead-sexy-book 23:19:22 qed: direct your attention towards that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:19:39 minion: please tell Guthur about lisppaste. 23:19:39 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 23:19:42 that parenthesise in the middle of the argument list wasn't suppose to be there 23:20:03 thats all it was, it cause it to complain about the quote for some reason 23:20:09 Guthur: then why don't you remove it? 23:20:13 i did 23:20:29 thats why i said ah sorry my bad 23:20:54 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp073.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 23:20:56 i am sorry it just was a strange error 23:21:05 it/ it was 23:21:22 meh my typing 23:21:24 *sigh* 23:21:26 beach, he was good with students who made an effort, but he did have a habit of making up his mind early on about who would and wouldn't. 23:22:42 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.84.250] has joined #lisp 23:24:04 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:24:16 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.84.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:18 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:24:30 beach, an on-topic question: How do you recommend I run McCLIM apps? Specifically the IRC client... I tried running it with `clbuild run beirc' earlier, but it kept crashing. 23:24:48 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.84.250] has joined #lisp 23:25:14 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774745.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 23:25:58 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:15 just run it? 23:26:29 (beirc:beirc) 23:27:48 ok 23:28:39 lisp software never crashes. it just signals a condition. 23:28:52 suppose one had a list like say (nil 'a 'b) 23:29:06 well, I think `clbuild run foo' disables the toplevel debugger 23:30:02 passed was the correct term for macros according to PCL 23:30:10 'passed' 23:30:14 suppose i wanted it to do something as soon as the first of the list is changed to a function name 23:30:19 rares, you mean the list actually has (quote a) in it? 23:30:26 yes 23:30:55 actually more like (list 'a 'b) 23:31:01 er 23:31:04 dammit 23:31:09 can't type today 23:31:18 (list nil 'a 'b) 23:31:35 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:31:48 rares: define "as soon as" and "change". How do you want to change it? How is the resulting form then to be called? 23:32:02 so? (when (fboundp (car list)) (apply #'funcall list)) 23:32:58 now if i (setf (first that-list) some-function-name) 23:33:24 in other words as soon as it's set it should trigger 23:33:56 so, trigger it when it's set 23:34:04 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:08 (lambda (x) (setf (prince-of-bel-air-p x) t)) 23:34:34 rares, maybe write a setf function that'll set the CAR and then do the check. 23:34:38 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-134.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:24 ok that's pretty straight forward 23:35:43 what isn't so straight forward though... 23:36:01 suppose i have [ and ] set to 2 read macros 23:37:10 and it's [nil 'a 'b] 23:37:46 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:37:54 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 23:38:04 i still want the first part of that to be changed and trigger when it does 23:38:26 that's making my head hurt right now 23:38:52 i feel sorry for your head 23:39:15 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-102.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:39:28 like let's say [x y z] turns into (do-something x y z) do-something being a macro or function 23:39:28 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 23:39:52 let's 23:40:03 rares, it still represents some Lisp datum once it's past the reader 23:40:28 but i want it to be stored as [x y z] and then when x is not nil to trigger the reader macro 23:40:43 rares: and do what instead? 23:40:49 so you want to store it as a string? 23:41:13 i guess that will work 23:41:55 so i'll have to do a (read-from-string ...) or something like that? 23:42:12 right, but you can't set the car of a string. What are you trying to do that requires this? 23:42:14 storing stuff as strings is good for code = data 23:42:21 i, for one, welcome our newLISP overlords 23:43:14 i'm creating a little toy language (scout's honor) 23:43:15 rares: you will have to find some way to program a trigger yourself. 23:44:58 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:44:59 rares: e.g. a function or macro setf-then-eval-if-fbound 23:45:03 rares, so what is this string/list/readmacro thing supposed to represent? 23:45:26 Adlai, dunno, but it's good for code = data 23:46:15 clhs in-package 23:46:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_in_pkg.htm 23:46:27 Ah, damn. Not evaluated. :-/ 23:46:58 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:47:04 *_deepfire* finds that running ssh from a slime REPL, in order to run desire tests on a remote machine, is more convenient than doing Alt+TAB to run the same tests, even when "remote machine" is localhost.. 23:47:05 nyef, can't you just (setf *package* somepackage) ? 23:47:11 Sure, I could. 23:47:17 And I might. 23:47:48 I'd be more likely to write a custom in-package macro, though. 23:48:09 what for? 23:48:15 which is unlikely to affect the compile-time reader, though 23:49:08 stassats`: I was kindof thinking of packages named by symbols, so I could say my-metapackage:some-package, and then the actual name of some-package wouldn't really matter. 23:49:21 -!- weirdo [i=weirdo4@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has left #lisp 23:49:57 good night 23:50:03 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["zzz"] 23:50:05 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d41a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["strange days"] 23:50:26 the idea is you take a list called a context which is [nil func nil] and 23:50:26 you do a union with a list called a request which is [value nil storage] which 23:50:26 returns back to you a list called an image which is [value func storage] - now say func is setf then the reader macro would return (setf storage value) 23:51:24 that's twisted all right 23:51:40 just playing with something 23:52:46 rares, wouldn't it be easier to process this if you stored things internally as lists or CLOS objects or anything but strings? 23:53:12 well i didn't want to go lists unless i had to 23:53:19 have "[foo bar baz]" get transformed into an object representing your program data 23:53:21 er go to striung 23:53:25 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-83-56.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:53:39 i cannot chew and tewpe today 23:53:42 dammit 23:55:11 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-214-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:07 well I don't see how you can activate readmacros at runtime without storing these as strings, but I also don't see why you want to use readmacros at runtime. 23:56:35 benny [n=benny@i577A832C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:56:36 saikatc [n=saikatc@67.180.9.222] has joined #lisp 23:58:31 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 23:58:42 Mmm... It seems more reasonable to have a mix between readmacros, "normal" macros and closures.