00:00:25 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:11 Hi, I have a problem with ucw under mac 10.6 and ccl 1.4. Starting the demo works, but then requesting the page gives an error about types of streams not being right: http://paste.lisp.org/+1XLK 00:02:28 I'd be thankfull for any help with this 00:02:37 that's strange. :allocation :class seems not to work properly in instances of persistent metaclasses in rucksack 00:03:11 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:03:15 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-11-46.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:04:10 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-96-97.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:04:56 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.243.11] has joined #lisp 00:05:28 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:14 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 00:07:29 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 00:09:14 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:02 serichsen: instance allocated slots are the same as global variables, really 00:10:24 er 00:10:26 class allocated. 00:11:27 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:11:52 -!- fatalnix1995_ is now known as fatalnix1995 00:12:11 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-225.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 00:12:25 rahul: how would you make a unique id? 00:12:44 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest4318 00:12:59 serichsen: huh? 00:13:07 how unique? 00:13:12 and of what? 00:13:24 unique for my class in my rucksack 00:13:27 -!- Guest4318 [n=Kenjin@242-225.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 00:13:38 serichsen: um, the class name 00:13:48 package:name 00:13:51 no 00:14:00 . . . 00:14:05 minion: memo for Sikander: Fix is in repository now. 00:14:05 Remembered. I'll tell Sikander when he/she/it next speaks. 00:14:10 I mean, unique for the instances 00:14:35 each instance should have a unique id 00:14:35 serichsen: why do you need a key for the instances? 00:14:37 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:54 serichsen: an object's identity is its unique id 00:15:00 rahul: for indexing in the rucksack database 00:15:25 serichsen: the database should provide a sequence or whatever 00:16:10 different ones implement it different ways, but it's the same idea 00:16:21 send the object to the database, and it comes back with an ID 00:16:42 only the database can assign these 00:16:46 rahul: well, it seems that rucksack is a bit rudimentary in that regard 00:17:03 serichsen: why does clsql not work for you? 00:17:55 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:18 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:18:19 mostly because the reader syntax tends not to work with my slime 00:19:00 does trittweiler have a library for you! 00:19:04 also, it requires setting up the database for deployment 00:19:08 Xach: yeah, I know 00:19:42 serichsen: does rucksack provide a relational language? 00:19:57 rahul: no. just persistence 00:20:02 as far as I have see 00:20:03 seen 00:20:18 but it fits my application 00:20:25 serichsen: I don't see why you'd stop using a library because it has a feature you can't use 00:20:32 that another library doesn't have 00:20:38 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-123.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:00 serichsen: can't clsql set up the database for you? 00:21:08 rahul: basically, I have reworked the entire backend as in-memory store 00:21:37 rahul: now, I'd like just to add (:metaclass persistent-class) to my defclasses 00:21:46 -!- egn_ is now known as egn 00:22:43 I had thought about writing something like rucksack myself, but my lisp-fu is not strong enough yet 00:22:53 well, you can either declare slot types or create a database sequence table 00:23:27 how does rucksack deal with dynamically typed slots? 00:23:34 yeah, my approach was that class slot that would be incremented by each call to make-instance 00:23:47 how would you initialize that slot? 00:23:48 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:21 Retardedpope [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:23 rahul: I am only exploring it myself, I can't give you definitive answers yet 00:24:48 serichsen: it seems like clsql and rucksack are the same amount of effort, to me 00:25:14 except that clsql probably scales better to distributed and concurrent systems 00:25:39 rahul: I like that I don't have to administrate a separate database, but can do everything in lisp 00:27:41 serichsen: don't OIDs need to be unique to the whole database in rucksack? 00:28:36 no, only for each class separately 00:30:34 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B860.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:32:19 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:33:10 serichsen: are you sure you need unique ids? 00:34:00 rahul: the tutorial says so 00:34:24 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:35:10 -!- dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:35:10 serichsen: where? 00:35:25 a unique number for internal use 00:35:31 that doesn't mean it's required 00:35:36 -!- flatline [n=flatline@z166195.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:30 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:36:53 -!- roneau2005 [n=roneau20@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:37:54 ok, the code looks like it's required 00:38:45 serichsen: I'm pretty sure that you need them to be globally unique 00:39:28 the PROXY class only has an object id and no class 00:39:40 oh 00:39:44 hm 00:40:11 (cache-get-object (object-id proxy) (cache proxy)) 00:42:46 -!- Retardedpope1 [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:44:25 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:44:34 serichsen: the object-id slot is in the persistent-object class already 00:45:15 and it set in the initialize-instance :around method for that class 00:45:55 (let ((id (new-object-id (object-table (heap cache))))) 00:46:06 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-11-46.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:47:41 hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:32 Jacolyte [n=blaine@unaffiliated/jacolyte] has joined #lisp 00:51:09 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 00:51:39 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d067dcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:03 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066b60.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:52:03 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:52:08 -!- serichse` is now known as serichsen 00:52:08 -!- faux` [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 00:52:24 re 00:52:57 did you see my resolution of the whole object id thing? 00:53:16 serichsen: the object-id slot is in the persistent-object class already and it's set in the initialize-instance :around method for that class 00:53:22 yes 00:53:34 didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 00:53:38 so, rucksack doesn't need additional unique ids 00:53:47 but I need them for my own use :) 00:53:54 serichsen: why? 00:54:03 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:54:06 you rarely need more than a few roots, which can be named 00:54:11 passing them as HTTP parameters 00:54:25 hmm 00:54:49 well, you could just ues rucksack's own ID as the one you pass around 00:55:23 So, how do you teach a computer how to program? 00:55:36 nyef: you give it macros 00:55:53 and macro-defining-macros. and macro-defining-macro-defining-macros.... etc 00:56:05 Okay, and less flippantly? 00:56:15 heh 00:56:25 <_3b> seems like the question is more how do you tell it what to program 00:56:29 lots of restarts, too 00:56:30 genetic programming? 00:56:36 serichsen: bleh 00:56:45 _3b: There's a certain amount of that, too. 00:56:53 serichsen: works in limited situations, but who chooses what the genes mean? 00:57:01 <_3b> without that part, just grab a grammar and start generatying code :p 00:57:22 And a certain amount of how do you get it to debug programs, either its own or someone else's? 00:57:32 yeah 00:57:42 that's where the liberal placement of restarts comes in 00:58:26 but the problem is not debugging the program 00:58:32 the problem is debugging the specification 00:58:34 rahul: I have done that once. I defined a simple stack language of about 20 operations. Each program was a chain of such operations. 00:58:58 serichsen: yeah, and I'm pretty sure a lisp compiler didn't pop out the other end :) 00:59:12 rahul: heh 00:59:45 I can only imagine that nyef is trying to write a program-writing-program to port sbcl to windows for him 00:59:47 rahul: no, it was aimed to play go, but it didn't get very good at it (not at all). 00:59:52 heh 01:00:16 serichsen: yeah, I'd be surprised if it got very good at othello 01:00:47 Unless it was a total rat-dance, then I'd imagine it wouldn't be good at othello, no. 01:00:47 perhaps I should have sticked to tic-tac-toe at first 01:01:02 serichsen: indeed 01:01:09 The problem that I have with tic-tac-toe is that the winning strategy is so brainless. 01:01:17 MAKE-ARRAY: dimension (LENGTH VALUES) is not of type `(INTEGER 0 01:01:17 (,ARRAY-DIMENSION-LIMIT)) 01:01:36 doesn't length return an integer? 01:01:37 Retardedpope: Sounds like you have a quote somewhere that you shouldn't. 01:01:38 Retardedpope: you need a ,(length values) 01:01:47 Retardedpope: you're not returning it, you're passing the code 01:01:52 nyef: yes, but it is a good first test of your algorithm 01:01:57 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:02:00 serichsen: I suppose I could see that. 01:02:18 Might be amusing if you go that route. 01:02:20 nyef: if your technique can't figure out something brainless, then it's most definitely brainless :) 01:02:30 <_3b> yeah, not much point at setting it on go if it can't figure out brainless stuff :) 01:03:00 *_3b* wants to work on a go ai one of these days, it probably won't get much beyond brainless either though 01:03:21 Yeah, a go AI would be cool. 01:03:29 So would just getting back to playing the game myself. 01:03:34 _3b: what kind of AI? 01:03:47 <_3b> serichsen: you mean how would i implement it? 01:04:10 yeah. Monte Carlo and such seem to be the rage right now. 01:04:22 -!- Guest67387 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:04:33 *_3b* would probably go some combination of statistical and/or neural net stuff 01:04:40 rahul: I don't get it... 01:04:47 <_3b> most of the interesting part would be decomposing the problem though 01:04:48 rahul: what do I need to do? 01:05:10 Retardedpope: unquote the stuff you want to be executed 01:06:07 -!- rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:16 rahul: If I take away the ' I get: 01:06:16 *** - SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: (LENGTH VALUES) should be a lambda expression 01:06:32 _3b: I have thought about neural nets. The problem is entering a position. The ko rule means that you need to provide the whole development of the game. 01:07:24 Retardedpope: I can't fathom what kind of contortions you're doing in order to do (make-array (list (length values) :initial-contents values) 01:07:30 <_3b> so add a 4th state for ko captures? 01:07:39 but I assume that's what you're trying to do 01:08:21 <_3b> (assuming i'm thinking of the right thing) 01:08:23 rahul: don't you need to use apply there? 01:08:30 where? 01:08:40 oh, missing a paren 01:08:44 rahul: thank you :) 01:09:09 Retardedpope: how did you manage to not figure that out? 01:09:09 ah 01:09:24 <_3b> i probably wouldn't be trying to put the entire game into the neural net anyway though, more just weighting options or whatever 01:09:43 Retardedpope: and what on earth were you doing that required a lambda expression in a specific location? 01:12:14 rahul: I thought I could use '(x y) to make the list, but apparently I had to use (list x y) 01:12:19 clhs '( 01:12:20 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for '(. 01:12:47 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 01:12:47 clhs ' 01:12:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dc.htm 01:12:59 Retardedpope: you still haven't figured out what quoting does? 01:13:01 does quote just mean don't execute? 01:13:05 exactly 01:13:15 so it's not executig (x y) but leaving it as is 01:13:48 you need to evaluate the value of x and y if you want to get the values of those variables 01:14:09 rahul: thank you, about time I figured that out. 01:14:43 I thought '( was similar to #( but for lists.... 01:14:56 but that's not the case I guess 01:14:58 ... It is, in a way. 01:15:30 nyef: does #( stop things from executing? 01:16:10 #( returns a literal array, which is self-evaluating. '( returns a literal list, which is a normal list prevented from being evaluated as lisp code by the quote. 01:16:33 So stuff in a #( won't evaluate either. 01:17:19 _3b: talks about AI made me think about possible usage of AI techniques to optimize code in SBCL :-D 01:17:36 And, now that I've stirred the pot a bit, I'm off to bed. 01:17:38 G'night all. 01:17:42 nyef: G'night 01:17:44 good night nyef 01:17:51 <_3b> i'm sure it uses lots of them already, just mostly ones that aren't called 'AI' anymore :) 01:17:53 p_l: so its compiler will be even slower? 01:18:01 Retardedpope: try #(a) 01:18:21 night nyef 01:18:28 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 01:18:35 stassats: no, make it an optional pass, done only for example for dumping image 01:18:44 nothing like some simulated annealing to drive up compilation times 01:18:54 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:18:59 nyef: thanks 01:19:22 serichsen: I was thinking of speculating execution to better bundle instructions (for possible IA-64 port ;-)) 01:23:21 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:24:35 benny` [n=benny@i577A86F8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 01:25:55 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A85C1.versanet.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:25:58 -!- benny` is now known as benny 01:26:01 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 01:26:06 -!- WhiteFlam [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:55 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:28:15 I'm doing (loop for v in values do .... can I also get the loop to tell me what iteration I'm on? 01:28:47 Retardedpope: (loop for i from 0 for v in values do ...) 01:28:47 for i from 0 01:28:58 multiple 'for' clauses permit parallel iteration. 01:29:55 -!- overdrive [n=user@81.202.77.182.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:29:57 parallell iteration? 01:30:35 isn't it sequential? as opposed to for ... and for ... 01:31:19 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:31:20 well, you're iterating in parallel paths 01:31:34 however, it's not concurrent or being bound in parallel 01:31:53 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h92n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:32:00 however, since the binding is independent, parallel or sequential binding is irrelevant 01:33:34 compare (let ((i 10)) (loop for i to 10 and x from i collect (list i x))) and (let ((i 10)) (loop for i to 10 for x from i collect (list i x))) 01:34:29 does the order of the fors matter? 01:34:36 and compare (loop for i from 1 to to do (loop for x from i to 10 ... 01:34:46 Retardedpope: if it matters, then it matters :) 01:34:54 depends if they use the values in the other for 01:36:08 rahul: ok, so if I have "for i from 0 for v in values" it doesn't matter.... 01:36:22 I could as well put it the other way around 01:36:23 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:36:57 right 01:37:32 <_3b> also matters if stepping has side effects 01:43:51 Guest67387 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 01:44:44 What does the A in #2A((5 0 1) (0 5 0) (1 1 1) (4 1 1)) mean? 01:44:47 array? 01:44:56 <_3b> clhs #a 01:44:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhl.htm 01:47:11 #0A = zero-dimensional array... I didn't know such a thing was possible.... 01:47:57 *Retardedpope* is having a hard time trying to think in 0 dimensions. 01:48:25 Retardedpope: what is a zero-dimensional spatial object? 01:48:43 rahul: I have no idea? 01:48:47 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:48:48 a point 01:48:49 a point 01:49:01 so a zero-d array has just one value 01:49:24 rahul: Why do you want an array for that then? 01:50:14 Retardedpope: because you want somewhere to put the value 01:50:16 to me zero-dimensional arrays seems pointless... 01:50:21 hehe pointless 01:50:36 good night 01:50:47 i am read sicp 2/e, what is the best scheme for it? 01:50:50 rahul: can't I just put it in a variable? 01:50:58 /s/read/reading/ 01:50:59 crink: plt? 01:51:07 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d067dcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["stop it already"] 01:51:08 crink: though, that's a #scheme question 01:51:08 stassats: thx 01:51:10 <_3b> 1x1x1x1 arrays are equally pointless, still no reason to not have them 01:51:12 Retardedpope: you might not want to 01:51:31 Retardedpope: you might be dealing with something that only wants arrays 01:51:47 Retardedpope: you can't pass a variable to another function, either 01:51:58 and variable doesn't really behave like an array 01:51:59 a zero-d array is like a "box" 01:52:11 -!- Guest67387 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:52:27 Guest67387 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 01:52:41 rahul: yes, but why would I prefer a 0d array over a 1d array with one element? 01:52:59 <_3b> so you do'nt have to pass 1 every time you index it? 01:53:07 <_3b> 0 rather 01:53:29 Retardedpope: a lot of lisp is about mathematical completeness 01:53:30 a better question will be: why not make a structure or a class 01:53:35 <_3b> same reason you would prefer a 1d array with 1 element over a 2sd array with 1 element 01:53:48 Retardedpope: lisp has rational numbers to get exact math for fractional values 01:53:49 _3b: you're saying that I don't need to index a 0d array? makes sense.... 01:54:01 Retardedpope: lisp has bignums to get exact math for large numbers 01:54:15 lisp has no quaternions 01:54:21 Retardedpope: lisp has complex numbers to get results for square roots of negative numbers 01:54:42 stassats: you can't create quaternions from complex numbers, can you? 01:55:16 stassats: complex numbers are closed under pretty much any operation except division by zero 01:55:42 what is difference between scheme and lisp? 01:55:49 rahul: is this unique to lisp or are there other languages with these features? 01:55:54 that is why complex analysis as an easier subject than real analysis 01:56:00 Retardedpope: scheme :) 01:56:02 crink: it's not a one sentence difference 01:56:04 both are looks like same 01:56:14 crink: it's like the difference between C++ and Java 01:56:29 oh 01:56:35 they're just different. defined differently, structured differently, have different semantics 01:56:45 <_3b> except lisp and scheme compete to be best, while c++ and java compete to be worst :p 01:56:51 some stuff translates, some stuff is just totally different. 01:57:05 _3b: well, they're completing for the same thing either way :) 01:57:12 competing, even 01:57:24 rahul: wikipedia says that scheme is lisp.... 01:57:27 Retardedpope: actually, it's optional in scheme 01:57:40 Retardedpope: the internets say the darndest things 01:57:40 arbscht [n=arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 01:57:47 Retardedpope: haskell is also lisp 01:58:03 Retardedpope: Java is also C 01:58:15 rahul: java is not c 01:58:24 rahul: they are very different 01:58:28 <_3b> we usually mean common lisp when we say lisp here 01:58:47 Retardedpope: lisp and scheme are very different 01:58:56 and yet wikipedia says they're te same 01:59:05 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:59:22 well, Retardedpope says that wikipedia says so 01:59:23 <_3b> there is a more general meaning, which includes more languages, with that definition, you could say scheme is /a/ lisp 01:59:25 rahul: common lisp and scheme are very different.... 01:59:39 Retardedpope: scheme is very different from every single other lisp 01:59:42 rahul: common lisp and scheme are lisp... 01:59:55 Retardedpope: haskell is also lisp, then 01:59:57 That's my understanding 02:00:18 <_3b> Retardedpope: where does it say that? i see 'scheme is ... dialect of ... lisp', not 'is lisp' 02:00:19 for me wikipedia says that scheme is a dialect lisp 02:00:23 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:42 yes, just like C is a dialect of Algol 02:00:52 _3b: a dialect of english is english 02:01:23 Retardedpope: so all animals are horses? 02:01:27 good to know. 02:01:28 c is typed b 02:01:41 crink: both of which are algols 02:01:45 rahul: an animal is not a dialect of a horse 02:01:48 yeah 02:01:54 or the other way around 02:01:57 sellout- [n=greg@24.61.12.76] has joined #lisp 02:02:01 sigh 02:02:13 Retardedpope: do you even know what the differences between lisp and scheme are? 02:02:23 Retardedpope: scheme doesn't have #' or anything similar to it 02:02:28 <_3b> 'is a dialect of' is meaningful here.. 'is' isn't 02:02:47 rahul: certainly not... 02:03:08 Retardedpope: scheme's syntax is not defined in terms of data structures 02:03:34 Retardedpope: scheme doesn't have dynamic scope available 02:03:41 Retardedpope: scheme doesn't have unwind-protect 02:04:19 Are you saying that scheme isn't as good as lisp? 02:04:33 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:04:39 Retardedpope: it approaches all of those things in a totally different way 02:04:42 algol are lisp 02:04:52 scheme is actally algol + lisp 02:04:55 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:05:10 <_3b> Retardedpope: he is saying equating 'scheme' and 'lisp' will reduce your understanding, so don't do that 02:05:11 algol is lisp 02:05:34 crink: as much as lisp is fortran 02:05:43 no 02:05:45 horses are lisp 02:05:45 yes 02:05:51 no 02:05:58 who is this troll 02:06:06 stassats: I'm allergic to horses... 02:06:18 <_3b> and ponies are scheme? (at least before the recent big scheme stuff) 02:06:23 heh 02:06:43 the scheme pony took a bunch of growth horomones 02:07:39 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-160-244-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:07:50 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:52 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 02:09:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@24.61.12.76] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:09:01 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 02:10:40 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:10:41 lisp and fortran both are math 02:10:47 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:11:44 they are simply independent 02:11:49 -!- asdfasd [n=email@89.180.172.244] has left #lisp 02:12:56 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:41 -!- manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:15:04 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:20:53 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:23:36 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 02:23:39 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-sfliuhrchnhydqbp] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:23:42 *deepfire* introduces hidden and unpublished modules for local consumption of desire users 02:24:42 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:24:47 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:25:10 manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has joined #lisp 02:31:35 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:38:30 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:56 -!- sg [n=sg@83.231.11.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:45:11 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-224.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:50:37 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:37 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 02:55:58 -!- wgl_ [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit ["Disconn@#$%"] 02:56:16 -!- sellout [n=greg@24.61.12.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:58:50 *wgl* moving the office downstairs, next to the cluster. 02:58:59 what cluster? :) 02:59:33 p_l: my 8-node compute cluster. 03:00:37 nice 03:00:51 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:01:10 At my university, we had apparently spearheaded testing of multi-node kerrighed cluster (not so long ago, it could only do two nodes) 03:01:28 p_l:what is kerrighed cluster? 03:02:30 wgl: it's a Single System Image clustering patch for Linux 03:02:48 since Mosix and OpenMosix went under 03:03:11 p_l: i use caos linux with perceus. works like a champ. stays up for months. 03:04:09 p_l: all running list application, of course. 03:05:45 p_l: s/list/lisp/ 03:06:18 who cares? 03:06:23 what matters is your end-application 03:07:03 you can run it on a super-secure, distributed operating system -- if the middle layer is crap (or non-existing!) then your end-application will be crap or non-existing. 03:07:16 chain as good as weakest link, etc. 03:08:38 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:44 Demosthenes [n=demo@host-66-235-80-184.warpspeed1.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:47 middleware being .... ? 03:11:02 in the middle? 03:11:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-249.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 03:11:39 Then how would the middleware be crap? 03:12:02 no, "if" middleware is crap, then the whole thing is crap, following "weakest link" 03:12:27 Does anybody know when the signal 'floating-point-underflow' will be triggered? I couldn't find it in the spec. 03:13:02 oh, i found it 03:13:10 Fare: well, you lost me there. 03:14:02 sellout [n=greg@c-76-24-17-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:11 wgl: the point being, what matters is your end application. 03:15:18 Right. But if your application is good, and the clustering middleware has some goofy restriction, then the whole thing suffers. 03:16:01 well, as some people in integration business say, their "end product" is the complete working thing, from hw to clients 03:16:38 *p_l* decided to include integration services for his startup 03:17:30 And there are those who think that middleware is the be-all and end-all, such as CORBA or ICE and everything else exists to support it. And there are those who think the kernel is the main thing, and that userland programs are but a silly annoyance and probably not written in C anyway. 03:17:55 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.68.11] has quit ["Switching to single-player mode."] 03:18:31 wgl: well, there's also this thing that apparently linux userspace is long behind the kernel and getting a system that actually used the capabilities would result in something weird... :D 03:20:41 p_l, where is your startup located? 03:21:18 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-224.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 03:21:38 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:38 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:42 p_l: yes, the end product is not the end of the product that consumers see, but all of the product that you offer in the end. 03:21:58 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:22:26 Fare: right now doing initial work, like market research, checking up on funding etc. Will be stationed in Aberdeen 03:22:26 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dbmsqxozkichztux] has joined #lisp 03:22:39 (Aberdeen, Scotland, UK) 03:22:49 I was there once, when a kid. 03:23:01 have the casinos been closed by the government? 03:23:30 hmm... haven't seen any, but I have yet to see all parts of the city - I mostly hang around Old Aberdeen on university campus 03:23:31 I didn't like the weather. And it was summer. Oh, and the midges... 03:23:42 and yes, the weather can be vicious 03:23:51 *p_l* recalls three days of non-stop rain 03:26:11 doesn't help that I'm homeless at the moment 03:26:37 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:28:56 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dbmsqxozkichztux] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:06 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bunshdktuxpwpjbf] has joined #lisp 03:29:15 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bunshdktuxpwpjbf] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:26 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:29:42 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:59 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-isnnlmlecildhyfm] has joined #lisp 03:30:06 still, I've got one prospective coworker that is skilled at HTML/JS (will be important for UI), another one that is willing to learn necessary skills and I think he would be useful addition to server coding + me 03:30:47 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:31:15 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has left #lisp 03:31:21 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 03:31:53 still, from what I talked around, seems like there's a nice big market of clients with fat wallets 03:32:13 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 03:32:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-249.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:33:40 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-isnnlmlecildhyfm] has left #lisp 03:34:39 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/session] has joined #lisp 03:34:48 is there a way to tell what you have installed via asdf-install when in sbcl shell? 03:36:18 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-offeyqlenxkaefru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:19 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-072-215.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:36:24 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nkvmhkglxnbjghle] has joined #lisp 03:37:37 holycow, (run-program "ls" ...) 03:38:27 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 03:38:31 danke 03:38:55 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 03:39:15 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:40:33 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442618.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 03:44:42 Yey, I wrote a useful piece of code. :) 03:48:50 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:52:22 warinthepocket [n=wipt@74-32-234-120.dr01.jrdn.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:06 how do I define a gesture for a partial command in clim? 03:53:28 if I define a gesture on one arg, it just assumes the other arg is NIL even though there's no :default for it 03:54:36 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:45 WhiteFlam [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:55 anyone aroud that knows the ins and outs of cliki.net? 03:55:31 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:55:35 i'm trying to use asdf-install to setup lispbuilder and one of the packages available theoretically is lispubilder-sdl-examples but cliki returns a 404 03:55:51 via this page: http://lispbuilder.sourceforge.net/#releases 03:56:05 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:56:19 any tips or suggestions on how to rectify this? 03:56:30 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.50.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56:43 <_3b> don't use lispbuilder-sdl stuff from sourceforge 03:57:19 oh. there are newer sources? i thought cliki would have them regardless 03:57:36 mtd_ [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 03:57:42 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:58:09 <_3b> i can't find the page you are talking about, link? 03:58:20 <``Erik> googlecode? 03:58:21 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 03:58:37 <_3b> lispbuilder-sdl page seems to have reasonable looking links on it 03:58:50 Server responded 404 for GET http://www.cliki.net/LISPBUILDER-SDL-EXAMPLES?download 03:59:01 i get that error when i run: (asdf-install:install :lispbuilder-sdl-examples) 03:59:37 <_3b> i'd expect exampled to be included with the main page 03:59:45 <_3b> *with the main lib i mean 04:00:14 oh jeebus, i skipped the main line up top and jumped to the code 04:00:20 right, google code. danke *face palm* 04:00:49 -!- hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:01:09 <_3b> i think asdf-install is expected to work for the main package and libs, haven't tried in a while though 04:01:16 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:01:27 <_3b> (at least as much as asdf-install ever does :) 04:02:06 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:02:41 hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 04:03:40 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:03:52 thx for the info, appreciate it 04:06:12 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A86F8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:06:57 benny [n=benny@i577A86F8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:11:20 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 04:12:09 -!- mtd_ [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:13:18 *ooooo* 04:13:20 fun 04:13:25 thanks again, quite cool 04:13:56 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:14:52 -!- somnium [n=user@adsl-152-4-182.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:35 !sbcl 04:19:57 *hmm* i'm not googling up typical sbcl command line interace options 04:20:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:20:29 does sbcl implement simmilar shell interace shortcuts like ctrl-p, ctrl-n to browse command history perhaps? 04:20:51 try using rlwrap, holycow 04:21:06 aptitude install rlwrap .. then rlwrap sbcl 04:21:11 oh! 04:21:13 danke 04:21:57 sweeet ... 04:22:10 emacs does run in CLI mode anyway though .. emacs -nw .. so, you have slime in CLI too 04:22:37 huh, nice. 04:23:11 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:28:12 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:29:36 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:30:09 -!- didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:34:46 Good morning. 04:35:00 -!- guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:35:01 guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 04:40:01 sg [n=sg@83.231.11.70] has joined #lisp 04:42:25 how do i optimize variables in a loop ? 04:42:32 (declaim ...) ? 04:43:09 billitch: Do you mean declare the type? (loop for i of-type ... ...) 04:43:32 yes ! 04:43:38 frigging mcclim bugs 04:44:48 drei barfs on a noise-string in the buffer 04:46:31 *_3b* always loves the part after adding a test and it finds a bug, trying to figure out if the bug is in the test or the code being tested :p 04:47:03 rahul: Perhaps you can try to convince Athas to have a look at it. 04:48:33 it's probably something rather knotty because it gets past the other noise-string in that buffer 04:49:59 Hmm. I am guessing the display code, right? 04:52:47 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-173-70.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:27 yeah 04:53:30 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 04:53:47 in-place-buffer-substring is the specific function that breaks 04:53:50 -!- Jacolyte [n=blaine@unaffiliated/jacolyte] has quit ["leaving"] 04:54:07 it's called by stroke-drawing-fn 04:54:28 I think Athas did a great job making the display code faster, but it is also buggier than what we had before. 04:54:40 *hmm* rlwrap works great. when in sbcl and say running a lisbuilder demo, occaionsally one will take cursor focus and i won't be able to escape out of the app to close it. what is the proper way to close an app run via sbcl shell? 04:54:58 with draw nil 04:55:22 danke, googling. 04:55:30 it's just computing the stroke dimensions 04:55:52 oh hehe you werent talking to me :) 04:55:54 k 04:56:06 rahul: I unfortunately never took the time to understand the stroke code. 04:56:28 <_3b> holycow: ctrl-c should interrupt it, then kill from debugger 04:56:47 oh kill ... right 04:56:50 <_3b> (assuming not running on windows, but then asdf-install probably wouldn't have worked anyway) 04:57:26 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-224-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:34 <_3b> that was just being descriptive, not sure exactly what you would want to do in the debugger 04:58:00 running debian/ubuntu here *nod* 04:58:29 asdf-install works on win for me :\ 04:58:40 <_3b> looks like you want to type the number of the 'Exit debugger ...' option in sbcl debugger 04:58:44 in bash ctrl-c kills the process started from the shell so that is an easy one. escape does in these demos but some of them steal focus ... so yeah i guess that is the only way 04:58:46 thx 04:59:01 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:59:38 <_3b> well, the part stealing focus should be the part listening for ESC :) 04:59:59 well i could be doing something dumb, but its possible bug fixes are in order :) 05:02:25 <_3b> yeah, some might be out of date, or just missing it, dunno 05:03:37 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:04:32 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-193-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:05:18 -!- WhiteFlam [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 05:06:37 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-173-70.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:42 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:09:58 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 05:15:34 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 05:15:45 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 05:15:46 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 05:16:04 <_3b> ok, fixed the bug unrelated code, now test doesn't find anything, and i still don't know if that means the test works or not :p 05:16:16 <_3b> (at least in this case i can just break it to test though) 05:19:16 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:20:47 cadabra [n=cadabra@c-76-23-34-5.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:24 rares1 [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 05:28:43 -!- rares1 [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 05:30:56 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.97] has joined #lisp 05:31:11 rares1 [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 05:31:53 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:32:27 -!- rares1 is now known as rares 05:34:30 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-224.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:37:54 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:44:58 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:46:31 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:47:17 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-224.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:47:33 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@c-24-118-53-243.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:02 clhs cond 05:48:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm 05:49:33 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-224.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:55:05 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 05:55:24 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:59:48 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:54 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:00:53 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:01:49 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:02:49 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:03:16 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 06:04:41 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:14 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:26 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:54 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 06:08:05 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93.81.158.182] has joined #lisp 06:09:27 beach: updated to latest cvs and it's working fine now. shrug 06:11:06 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229082101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:14:11 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93.81.158.182] has quit [] 06:14:31 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:14:45 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 06:18:44 http://common-lisp.net/project/rjain-utils/formulate.png 06:19:01 cells is dead. long live formulate. 06:20:35 I'm a bit disappointed that clicking on a slot inserts '(slot-value ...) into the expression 06:24:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:28:25 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:28:50 Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-17-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:31:41 rahul: Glad the problem is fixed! 06:32:39 I 06:32:53 I'm currently working on decent handling of errors while computing formulae 06:33:42 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:34:20 ideally, I'd have a popup or something that showed a "backtrace" of the stack of formulae that were being computed 06:34:48 woah 6 lisp users in belgium already 06:35:05 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-6-141.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 06:37:29 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.97] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:42:56 maus [n=maus@222.253.108.58] has joined #lisp 06:43:39 hello 06:44:16 hello maus 06:44:19 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:44:21 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 06:44:26 Good morning! 06:44:46 Hello spiaggia :) 06:46:02 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:33 vng [n=demen@123.20.127.40] has joined #lisp 06:50:14 hello 06:50:19 -!- vng [n=demen@123.20.127.40] has left #lisp 06:50:32 vng [n=demen@123.20.127.40] has joined #lisp 06:50:37 hello vng 06:50:58 hello plage 06:51:26 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-221-199.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:26 plage: we are almost done, and adjusting it.. we will send it to you.. we feel happy now :) 06:52:41 plage: morning 06:53:52 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:13 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:36 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:56:04 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-17-35.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:59:30 maus: Great! Don't worry if I give you a "dry" answer with some comments on your code! 06:59:37 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-1-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:00:56 plage: yes, sir.. that will make us to try harder :).. please don't mind! 07:01:46 -!- rme [rme@clozure-BB28D3A0.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 07:01:46 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:02:53 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-76-24-17-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:07:08 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:09:19 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:19:20 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-35-118.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:45 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:24:21 ASau [n=user@host183-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:28:03 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:14 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:34:08 Damn, #\Return characters are annoying... Especially when *inferior-lisp* and *slime-repl* differ in how they print them... 07:46:19 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [] 07:46:50 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 07:50:13 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:54:09 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 07:55:38 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:50 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Success] 07:58:59 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has joined #lisp 07:59:07 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 08:00:12 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:00:30 good morning 08:00:39 hello mvilleneuve 08:00:46 mvilleneuve: right on time as usual, I see. 08:02:35 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:03:14 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Client Quit] 08:03:19 plage: it looks like I have been lucky with trams these last few days :) 08:03:38 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:04:25 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 08:07:48 hello I'm havin a problem with hunechentoot: 08:08:06 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.42] has joined #lisp 08:09:10 in the action attribute of a
I write "http://localhost:4443/claw/site/index.html" the hunchentoot is under apache mor_proxy defined as: 08:10:01 ProxyPass /claw/ http://localhost:4443/claw/ in the ssl configuration 08:10:37 why the attribute isn't rendered as https://localhost/... ? 08:10:46 *mod_proxy 08:13:12 how to define variables which are used within a function? 08:13:56 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2129.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:25 maus: Use let to define local variables and defparameter for global ones. 08:14:50 clhs let 08:14:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 08:15:10 plage: okie, I got it. 08:16:03 sam__ [n=sam_5365@ip68-109-124-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:47 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 08:20:17 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:21:52 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:24:52 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:28:10 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:28:11 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:45 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:31:01 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has left #lisp 08:34:19 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:34:52 -!- sg [n=sg@83.231.11.70] has quit [] 08:37:31 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:37:55 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has joined #lisp 08:45:09 swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 08:46:57 -!- sam__ [n=sam_5365@ip68-109-124-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 08:47:25 sam__ [n=sam_5365@ip68-109-124-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:21 varjag [n=eugene@62.97.226.122] has joined #lisp 09:04:27 -!- sam__ [n=sam_5365@ip68-109-124-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:05:05 Moop [n=Moop@c-98-244-54-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:59 hey guys I just started learning lisp today and I'm doing decent.. 09:06:10 but whats the difference between null and nil again? nil is () 09:06:12 null is false? 09:06:29 Moop, in Common Lisp, NULL is a function which tests whether something is NIL 09:06:41 ohhhh >.> thanks 09:06:56 god I feel, justifiably, like a total noob 09:07:42 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:08:47 Adlai: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/sequence-iterators-2009.pdf 09:09:23 I'll put that link into my blog (so it appears on planet.lisp) sometime I cared to have some content on the c-l.net project 09:09:52 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:10:52 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:11:21 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:11:29 hey guys, i'm getting a weird clbuild error. i was trying to install fare-matcher which failed with a gzip error. searching the net told me that fare-matcher had moved from tarball to git, and i put the new sources in wnpp-projects 09:11:52 but now when i try to do a clbuild install fare-matcher, i get an error saying that clbuild was interrupted and i should do a resume 09:12:14 on resuming, i'm getting the same error (clbuild was interrupted, plz do a resume) 09:12:17 any hints? 09:14:53 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-17-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:00 i could use some help with writing a recursive function 09:18:18 basically, I have a function max-mix(l) that returns the max and min integer of a list 09:18:26 this is pretty easy save for one thing 09:18:33 i'm not sure how to deal with recursive lists 09:18:57 ie, max-mix((a 1 c d) (2 4 3)) 09:19:16 oh yeah, max-min(nil)=(-9999 9999) 09:19:27 huh? 09:19:27 Moop, that doesn't look like lisp :| 09:19:36 *rahul* 's head spins 09:19:38 clisp? 09:19:49 Lisp looks like (foo bar baz) 09:19:49 clisp is a compiler for common lisp 09:19:49 jsnell: are you here? 09:20:01 or more precisely (op arg1 arg2) 09:20:02 im pseudocoding here 09:20:14 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-170-163.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:19 (defun max-min(arg) 09:20:27 better? 09:20:29 well, we're pseudodebugging 09:20:57 Krystof: did you CC sbcl-devel explicitly, or do launchpad comments in general go to it? 09:21:07 basically my thought process is process the cdr of the list, then compare the car to what it returns to find if it is a new max or min 09:21:16 but if your car is a list too... ruh roh 09:21:21 (loop for x in list maximize x into max minimize x into min finally (return (values max min))) 09:21:27 tcr: I cced sbcl-devel explicitly 09:21:28 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-160-244-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:34 because it was no longer really about that bug 09:21:56 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:59 rahul: our approach must be recursive :S 09:22:00 I have this crazy idea to compile sbcl itself with (optimize sb-cover:store-coverage-data) and I wonder where to put that 09:22:12 Moop: maybe you should go to #recursion then 09:22:24 tcr: I would love that, but unfortunately it breaks the pcl bootstrap 09:22:26 Moop: this is #lisp, where we write our code in lisp style 09:22:33 so MORE WORK NEEDED first 09:22:46 i will check it out rahul. Once I solve this I will show you guys my solution :> 09:22:47 speaking of which 09:22:50 *Krystof* heads to work 09:22:52 rahul you have a strange aversion to recursion 09:23:10 Guthur: I have an aversion to crashing my lisp and to obfuscating my code 09:23:28 again it's not obfuscation 09:23:39 it is, if your goal is to iterate 09:23:40 its a well known approach 09:23:56 coding with S and K combinators is also a well known approach 09:24:19 it makes sense when it makes sense and doesn't when it doesn't 09:26:43 it could be argued that the loop macro is more obfuscating, as it is decidedly on lispy 09:26:51 on lisp/ unlispy 09:26:59 heh 09:27:11 yes, it's definitely NOT PG's style. 09:27:31 but then again, PG's style is to go for whatever the lisp community doesn't do 09:27:56 i'm actually more taking Peter Norvigs view, which is the same 09:28:00 Guthur: using recursion where you want iteration is what's really unlispy 09:28:05 Guthur: How could you argue that the loop macro is obfuscating iteration? 09:28:08 *Adlai* (pop corn) 09:28:35 tcr i use the loop, i said it wasn't lispy, its more english 09:28:37 Guthur: writing macros to create little languages is decidedly lispy, which means loop is lispy 09:29:12 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 09:29:26 Guthur: do you think that mapcar is unlispy because it doesn't look recursive? 09:29:38 Guthur: Then that statement was a red herring 09:29:55 lisp is based on english 09:30:03 (imperative objects ...) 09:30:45 you are telling the computer to do specific things. with loop, you are using lots of prepositional phrases and gerunds instead of objects 09:31:00 kk, i use it alot so i can't really bash it too much, it was more a quote from PAIP 09:31:06 erm not gerunds, that's #' 09:31:19 Guthur: CLOS is also unlispy 09:31:30 lolo 09:31:31 *lol 09:31:45 if you consider things unlispy because PG and Norvig don't use them in their books 09:31:49 but how then is recursion unlisp? 09:31:59 Guthur: because it's not supported well in lisp 09:32:09 rahul explain 09:32:18 recursion is as lispy as it is C-ish 09:32:21 its seems to work well enough for me 09:32:24 heh 09:32:32 well, have fun "seeming" :) 09:32:56 when your lisp environment blows up, don't come crying to us :) 09:33:53 never had my lisp environment blow up on me with recursion 09:34:14 granted i never tried to compute billionth prime number with it 09:35:25 konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 09:35:27 varjag: you can easily run out of stack space with the straight-forward recursive factorial 09:35:29 is the value of cdr always a list even if it is only 1 item? 09:35:50 Moop: yes, if the list is a proper list. 09:36:53 proper list? 09:37:01 clhs porper list 09:37:06 the, ahem, recursive definition of proper list is a cons cell whose cdr is a proper list 09:37:42 there goes my attempt at ironic response ;) 09:39:01 (van dvd-r) 09:39:05 Moop: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#proper_list 09:39:10 *Phoodus* has modern cons cells 09:39:22 i was just there like 10 seconds ago, thanks jdz :) 09:39:34 Phoodus, your second car is a DVD-R ? 09:39:43 lol 09:39:57 jdz: yes you can, with anything really if you ask for recursion deep enough 09:40:02 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:40:15 rahul: norvig used CLOS in PAIP, iirc 09:40:21 just saying it was never a practical problem for me, but again i don't use recursion that frequently 09:40:45 varjag: my point was that you do not really need anything involving billions 09:40:51 ok 09:40:51 of anything 09:41:25 it was figurative, you won't get anywhere close to billions :) 09:41:32 p_l: just to show that it exists, really 09:41:44 p_l he has a chapter on it but doesn't seem to use it much 09:42:00 Guthur: maybe because he introduces it rather late? 09:42:16 about half way i think 09:42:22 let me check hehe 09:42:56 ya about mid point in the book 09:43:35 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:44:10 he doesn't like generic functions much though 09:45:00 heh, in Norvig's view the biggest flaw with CLOS is the lack of encapsulation 09:45:05 it was 1991 though, so implementations may not have been great, and there is still a performance cost when using them ofc 09:45:06 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:45:39 and he could've started writing the book much earlier :) 09:45:50 plage: I have to go now, my friends are waiting for me! See you later! :) 09:45:57 plage: bye bye! 09:46:12 maus: oh how nice of you to let us know that valuable piece of information 09:46:27 maus: greet your friends from us. 09:46:27 jdz: :) 09:46:47 jdz: thank you so much, I will! 09:46:55 jdz: see you later! 09:47:37 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.108.58] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:50:58 salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:22 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:13 which irc client do you use? 09:54:19 i use xChat 09:54:21 :) 09:54:35 vng: see topic 09:54:53 jdz: what topic? 09:54:58 vng: channel topic 09:55:40 Can you show me where it is? 09:56:11 where can I find common lisp API, etc 09:56:30 vng, try typing /topic 09:56:33 minion: pcl 09:56:34 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:56:41 Moop: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/common-lisp.html 09:57:11 Adlai, jdz : thanks 09:58:08 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:18 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:02:24 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:39 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:31 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:05:49 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:06:00 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 10:06:40 xxoxx [n=ooxoo@tor/regular/xxoxx] has joined #lisp 10:08:18 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-179-172.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:08:19 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:11:34 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:13:13 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:18:51 Xach: Boy, the interface to the map is very strange. 10:19:59 Xach: Sometimes moving a pin seems to copy it, but then deleting the copy also deletes the original. And I was able to make such a modification without having clicked on Edit. And I found that even if I didn't save the modification, it seemed to be permanent. 10:20:11 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-6-141.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:20:29 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2129.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:20:39 Xach: And now, the pin form mvilleneuve is displayed as an icon of a person rather than a pin. Just very strange. 10:22:28 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 10:23:44 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 10:23:55 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 10:24:05 hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 10:24:54 is there any Intermediate Language Definition for Lisp? 10:25:30 leadnose [i=leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 10:26:26 hjpark: what is "intermediate language definition"? 10:27:02 jdz_: one step higher than novice language definiton 10:27:03 Now, I'm implementing lisp compiler. So I need to implement intermediate language before machine language. 10:27:21 hjpark: why would there be a specific one? 10:27:31 hjpark: there are dozens of possible ones. 10:27:46 spiaggia: Indeed, my positive experience with google maps with just a few pins has not scaled to the google map with almost 300 pins. 10:28:02 rahul: yeah, I need any possible one. but, cannot find proper one. 10:28:02 hjpark: it all depends on what you want your compiler to be able to achieve, and why would you bother if you're just going to copy an existing compiler? 10:28:22 jdz_: I'm guessing "[Common] Intermediate Language" in the .NET sense 10:28:27 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:28:43 so perhaps he's asking for a Lisp implementation on top of Microsoft's CLR 10:28:59 rahul: I need some information about IL for lisp.. 10:29:03 lichtblau: that's clearly a lot of guesswork there 10:29:04 I don't have many idea for that. 10:29:36 hjpark: each one of the existing compilers has one... 10:29:37 But, I don't implementing CLS for lisp :) 10:29:50 jdz_: the "I'm feeling lucky" google result is always the right answer and must not be questioned! 10:29:54 *Maddas* smells markov chains ;-) 10:30:17 rahul: for example SBCL compiler? 10:31:38 hjpark: yes 10:38:26 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:40:46 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:40:46 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 10:40:55 Xach: the gmaps v3 api page has examples on scaling map decorations, iirc 10:43:44 -!- hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:53 hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 10:44:28 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:45:04 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 10:47:47 udzinari` [n=user@nat/ibm/x-jtsdaqaxzfobfyyj] has joined #lisp 10:50:24 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:15 -!- Moop [n=Moop@c-98-244-54-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:51:49 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:36 Does anyone know in how far keywords are relevant for ctors? 10:55:51 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:56:25 I don't understand the question 10:56:43 there must be some connection because of the comment above internal-name-p in xref.lisp 10:57:32 that sounds like a dubious piece of reasoning 10:58:09 a ctor is named approximately (sb-pcl::ctor initarg initarg initarg) 10:58:17 very commonly the initargs are keywords 10:58:50 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:58:51 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 10:58:54 but since the class name isn't 10:58:57 ... dunno 11:01:00 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:01:40 Axius [n=ade@92.84.21.160] has joined #lisp 11:02:12 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:03:50 how do I get the first element of an array ? 11:04:00 (aref array 0) 11:04:34 thx 11:04:42 manuel__ [n=manuel@217.230.209.9] has joined #lisp 11:05:56 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-cexixmimxduicedl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:43 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:12 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06da6b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:14 hello 11:22:01 spiaggia, it appears there was a terrible misunderstanding between us the other day. We have been substituting different values into the word "it" in our individual threads of conversation, which were more separate than it might have appeared. 11:23:28 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AE04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:34 deepfire: I think you said a few days ago that you subscribed launchpad to a mailing list? 11:23:44 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:25:50 tcr, I have made a launchpad team with a mailing list for desire some time ago. 11:25:52 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:27:07 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 11:27:39 tcr, why? 11:29:01 -!- hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:32:50 Is that mailing list maintained by launchpad, or did you connect the bug tracker to an existing list? 11:35:56 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.21.160] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:37:58 tcr, the list is maintained by launchpad. 11:38:15 ziga` [n=user@89.142.60.237] has joined #lisp 11:38:40 ah ok 11:39:00 tcr, it might be that it was a wrong choice, as requiring to register on launchpad in order to participate might be a barrier too high. 11:39:43 Might be I should have applied for a list on clnet. 11:40:22 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:41:21 -!- rahul [rjain@clozure-6C5C827B.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 11:43:51 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 11:43:53 Xof: When I presented two days ago, most people were not aware of that sbcl does have an extensible sequence protocol. In that regard your last paper really addresses a necessity. You should probably blog about it once it's out. 11:43:59 ragnul [n=rjain@66.234.32.150] has joined #lisp 11:44:36 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:45:13 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 11:45:50 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nkvmhkglxnbjghle] has left #lisp 11:46:19 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:39 tcr: heh. Part of my schtick at ILC when I presented was "it's been in the sbcl releases for 6 months and no-one has noticed, so it can't be inefficient" 11:51:58 let's hope this one doesn't get reviewed by JonL 11:52:55 "all very nice, but what about in a real implementation?" 11:53:09 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:27 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:26 deepfire, in my experience launchpad has this cultural tendency to discourage actual bug fixing 12:00:03 leo2007` [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:00:43 Xof: oh, right. I remember a remark from him similar to that. 12:01:26 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:40 Xof: Something about "personal toy" or "personal implementation". 12:02:29 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:44 yeah 12:05:02 _3b`: you around? 12:05:13 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 12:06:19 I probably ranted about it here at the time 12:06:23 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:17 sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:11:39 _3b, maybe you're around? 12:14:42 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:15:05 Xof: In that case, it must be in the logs. 12:18:09 -!- ASau [n=user@host183-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:21:17 tcr: but you're right, it would be nice to tell more people that they can do cool stuff with sbcl 12:21:40 tcr: one of the things that I find hard in my academic career as well as in software development is believing that anyone else will find what I do interesting 12:23:23 sbt [n=sbt@234.80-203-17.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:20 are there any lisps where all values are functions? 12:24:47 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:25:07 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:25:19 e.g. if I have (define x 5), then x => #'proc and (x) => 5 12:26:31 embeddings of lisps within the lambda calculus have will effectively have that property, though you might distinguish between functions in the substrate (the lambda calculus itself) and functions in the implementation 12:26:42 otherwise: no, why? 12:27:06 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:28:43 ASau [n=user@host183-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 12:29:20 I'm writing a toy lisp and I thought it would simplify the syntax to consider everything a function 12:29:54 but I suppose having to say (x) to get the value of x everytime would be frustrating 12:30:02 sbt: Your question can only be answered if you tell us what you consider by "any lisps". 12:30:14 plage: code as data 12:30:41 sbt: So Haskell is a lisp? 12:30:56 perl, too? 12:30:59 I don't know Haskell, so I don't know 12:31:07 sbt: why would it be necessary? if all variables would essentialy be functions, you could just compile (+ a b) as (+ (a) (b)) 12:31:11 last I checked, strings were the main data type in perl... 12:32:08 Dodek: but then what if I wanted to refer to the variable (which could be a parametric function) without applying it? 12:32:50 to the variable or to the value of the variable? 12:33:20 value of the variable 12:34:10 I suppose I would need to introduce some kind of (value-of foo) 12:35:18 (symbol-function foo) would seem nicer 12:35:38 :) 12:35:47 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:35:52 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.183] has joined #lisp 12:36:00 and you could just have a reader macro which simplifies it 12:36:03 as CL has. 12:36:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:36:38 I suppose that would be an option, something like #'foo referring to the value 12:37:01 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.79.253] has joined #lisp 12:37:04 i think i need some clarification on what you mean by 'value' 12:37:13 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 12:37:14 let's say i do (define foo 42) 12:37:25 what is the value of foo? 42 or (lambda () 42) ? 12:37:32 (lambda () 42) 12:37:52 ah, ok. so far, i've considered the former 12:37:59 sbt, why not use church numerals? that simplifies things... 12:38:15 13:53:21 < sbt> but I suppose having to say (x) to get the value of x everytime would be frustrating 12:38:27 this statement suggests you meant the former. 12:38:37 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-160-244-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 12:38:54 sorry for the confusion 12:39:02 Adlai: for some values of 'simplifies' :) 12:39:09 Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 12:39:12 Adlai: I wasn't aware of the concept, thanks for the tip 12:39:21 Dodek, well it might not simplify time complexity... 12:39:37 but it does mean that everything is a function -- even IF. 12:40:11 i once implemented full untyped lambda calculus for fun - not that it was difficult 12:40:25 computing factorial was fun 12:41:02 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:41:15 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:41:53 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@host-66-235-80-184.warpspeed1.net] has quit ["leaving"] 12:43:51 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 12:44:56 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:51 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 12:49:48 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:51:31 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-54-251.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:52:48 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:53:22 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:44 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:55:53 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:25 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:57:48 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:00:31 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:23 flatline [n=flatline@110.4.166.195] has joined #lisp 13:01:36 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:01:44 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 13:03:28 yay got ecl running on my arm phone 13:04:52 varjag: nice! 13:05:04 varjag: what kind of phone? how's the speed? 13:06:09 ok forget it, it actually crashes :) 13:06:26 madnificent, it's an industrial voip phone 13:07:56 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:08:10 cvandusen [n=user@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:52 varjag: check out why it crashes and report it :) 13:09:35 ok! 13:10:04 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:10:29 I'm using simple-date to get the UTC time (universal-time-to-timestamp) but I would like to get the local time of the server. Is there some way in which I can do that? 13:11:08 simple-date is something from postmodern 13:12:16 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@c-76-23-34-5.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:42 the postmodern site talks about this. It says to either think very hard (I'm trying to see if that is the way I should go) or try to use local-time... but local-time isn't TOO sure to work with postmodern (which somewhat scares me) 13:14:19 -!- leo2007` [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 13:24:54 G'morning all. 13:25:35 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:28:04 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-170-163.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:28:12 nyef: morning... 13:28:23 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:30:19 hello nyef 13:34:37 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 13:36:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:36:02 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 13:36:04 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:29 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:36:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:42 hello, are there any makefile equivelence in the lisp world? can somebody point me at the fine manual? 13:36:50 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 13:37:14 bulibuta: asdf is often used for that purpose 13:37:18 minion, xach-asdf 13:37:19 xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 13:37:26 bulibuta: i hope that article helps 13:37:37 thank you very much 13:38:00 I think it will sure be better then my (load (compile-file "...") ...) scripts :-) 13:38:07 s/then/than/ 13:38:18 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:51 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:53 heh, even the defpackage bits are useful. I use it much the same way but w/o the # in front of :package 13:40:21 that doesn't have a big impact in practice, but it's my preference 13:44:40 jsnell: Why does internal-name-p in xref.lisp remove the keyword package? 13:46:24 I have no recollection of that, Senator 13:48:52 What's an "internal name"? 13:49:05 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:20 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442618.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:52:36 nyef: That prevents collection of xref information for sbcl-internal stuff 13:53:03 I'm about to add a build flag to build sbcl with that information 13:53:04 tcr: It removes keywords because you have functions generated by PCL involving a name such as (some-package:slot-name :reader). 13:53:56 I know people who use MACROLET on keywords for their dsl 13:54:18 That's a... frightening concept. 13:54:20 Is it even legal? 13:54:44 I wouldn't know why not 13:54:55 nyef: sure it's legal 13:55:21 Next thing I know, someone will tell me that using DEFUN on a keyword is legal. 13:55:30 um... it is 13:55:30 sure 13:55:40 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:56 Keywords? What keywords? 13:56:05 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:56:05 :this :or :that 13:56:15 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:56:31 not sane for code other people are supposed to use, but nice to do in your .sbclrc, so you don't have to worry about current package when calling your debugging utilities 13:56:45 I guess that's fair enough. 13:58:52 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:59:20 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:59:22 #tum.ros 13:59:29 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:59:52 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:59:55 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:59:58 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 14:00:03 M-? on cons shows pretty much exactly 3600 uses 14:00:26 pretty much exactly? 14:00:46 has anyone worked with localtime? 14:00:48 local-time 14:01:01 madnificent: dlowe has 14:01:07 dlowe: ping 14:01:11 *dlowe* cringes. 14:01:12 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@93-141-93-119.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:01:16 madnificent: how can I help you? 14:01:36 jdz: 3601 (but that includes swank of course) 14:01:46 attila lendvai has done a lot with local-time, as well 14:01:48 core size increases by 5-6mb 14:01:55 simple-date allowed me to substract two timestamps, does local-time have something similar? 14:02:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:02:08 madnificent: timestamp-difference 14:02:15 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-54-251.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:02:21 *madnificent* checks to see if he really missed that 14:02:28 Does it report a difference in business-days? 14:02:44 *dlowe* makes sure he's remembering correctly 14:02:49 dlowe: you're right 14:03:07 -!- Foofie is now known as Fufie 14:03:08 but that doesn't return an object of any kind, so it isn't really the same as simple-date does... 14:03:29 thanks, I'm going to hack around it a bit 14:03:30 hm. well, sorry :/ 14:04:03 no sorry! a big thanks! I wouldn't have seen -difference in a week if you didn't tell me it was there :D 14:04:21 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:44 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:10 leo2007 [n=leo@193.60.95.74] has joined #lisp 14:08:24 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:08:34 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:55 dlowe: actually, it seems to be a good thing. I'm filling in some abstractions which I've left open over time. This is a good excuse :) 14:11:57 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 14:13:38 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442618.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 14:14:25 does sbcl have some sort of list optimization where (length list) is O(1) instead of O(n)? 14:15:09 bobbysmith007: no. 14:15:28 bobbysmith007: what do you need? 14:15:38 bobbysmith007: No but you could define your sequence which stores the length along the list. 14:15:44 You don't really understand what a list is. 14:15:44 your own 14:15:48 Im just seeing that length of array and length of list take the same amount of time 14:15:53 and that seemed odd 14:16:05 bobbysmith007: how long is your list? 14:16:07 bobbysmith007: perhaps the list is not long enough? 14:16:22 My simple test case is ~1300 long 14:16:45 are you using the return value for something? 14:17:48 alright nm, I had confounded my test by iterating the test many times, sorry 14:17:48 bobbysmith007: and how are you measuring? i think taking length of such a list might be well below the granularity of your timing method. 14:18:00 jdz: exactly 14:18:09 mstevens [n=mstevens@193.227.111.165] has joined #lisp 14:18:27 for example, (dotimes (i #xffff) (length seq)) is probably not a good idea, you want (dotimes ... (setf *foo* (length seq))) 14:18:32 bobbysmith007: that in no way means that they take the same amount of time... 14:18:42 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:22 jdz: interesting... why is the setf necessary? 14:19:25 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 14:19:34 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:19:49 "are you using the return value for something?" 14:20:09 I had seen that summing a bunch of list lengths didnt really seem to be costing much more than summing 0 and that was confusing, so I was trying to determine why it was so cheap to sum the lengths of lists, but then I got caught in my own bad test case 14:20:18 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:40 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 14:20:41 jsnell: I found a minion who offered to do a slime contrib for sb-cover. 14:21:08 nice 14:21:22 p0a [n=user@athedsl-383698.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:21:26 minion: chant 14:21:27 MORE MINIONS 14:21:35 minion: replicate 14:21:36 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``replicate''. 14:21:57 ASau` [n=user@host183-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 14:22:07 (but yes, that sounds very cool) 14:23:12 It seems there really are lots of people who would like to do something, but don't know what, and who would appreciate guidance. 14:23:57 Hello how can I return a particular value when some array index is out of bounds? eg (aref (make-array '(1 1)) 1 1 :default-value 1) ==> 1 14:24:00 Another one offered to write a cl-ebnf on top of cl-yacc :) 14:24:04 tcr: the cl-gardeners idea really exploded quickly 14:24:07 Should I just write my own function that does it? 14:24:23 -!- frodef [n=frode@80.91.225.95] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:24:42 and Adlai is working with me on sequence-iterators! 14:24:47 tcr: would "like" to do, or actually end up doing it? 14:24:58 clhs: array-in-bounds-p 14:24:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ar_in_.htm 14:25:17 ^- the right way to write such a function 14:25:37 lichtblau: He definitively looked at cl-yacc and summarized his implementational ideas 14:25:47 tcr, what would a slime contrib for sb-cover entail? 14:25:56 *Adlai* isn't entirely sure what sb-cover does, either 14:25:57 Xach: http://wiki.alu.org/Gardeners_Projects gives a 'page not found' error. where is more information about cl-gardeners? 14:26:05 jsnell: thanks 14:26:09 Adlai: Fonfitication according to the coverage data 14:26:23 p0a: I'm not sure. It was started a few years ago, got hundreds of interested members, and then did not go anywhere. 14:26:23 erm fontification 14:26:35 Xach: oh 14:26:54 p0a: there is channel here, i think, and a mailing list. the mailing list gets some traffic. 14:26:55 oh, I see. Sounds cute :p 14:26:56 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442618.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:27:49 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:28:01 p0a, I think the Google Code page for lispbuilder has some information 14:28:30 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:28:39 nyef: you broke my .sbclrc, i think :/ 14:28:55 nikodemus: Really? How? 14:29:03 nikodemus pasted "regression" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90234 14:29:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:29:47 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:29:51 Ah. 14:31:58 (LOAD is similarly affected, of course) 14:32:06 Yeah, and a defun at the REPL is as well. 14:32:15 -!- sbt [n=sbt@234.80-203-17.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:33:26 i think you just need to protect it with (when (fasl-output-p ...) ...) in the entry-info stuff 14:33:51 Yeah, something like that. 14:33:53 How irritating. 14:34:20 demmeln [n=Adium@131.159.19.90] has joined #lisp 14:35:16 there's nothing like a well-maintained test suite for catching that kind of thing :-/ 14:35:27 hum, or maybe you should be going through find-constant, actually 14:35:36 Yeah, that was the next possibility. 14:35:45 But I'm not even sure what find-constant -returns-. 14:36:22 a constant leaf 14:37:14 (the comment above it is pretty good, i think) 14:37:37 Yeah, but I'm missing most of the background for the front end in the first place. 14:37:47 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 14:38:10 -!- ASau [n=user@host183-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:21 So instead of the make-load-form junk, "just" use (constant-value (find-constant arglist))? 14:39:16 yeah, i think so 14:40:00 but arguably functional-arg-documentation should already have the canonicalized value there 14:40:15 not sure 14:40:25 I think I'm lost already. 14:41:09 ok. find-constant is called to convert a constant into its ir1 representation 14:41:16 there's nothing like a well-documented compiler for catching that kind of thing :-/ 14:41:37 we suck! 14:42:00 it is also responsible for arranging fasl-dumping of the said constant, and constant coalescing 14:42:51 -!- dostoyev1ky is now known as dostoyevsky 14:43:20 So, in compute-entry-info, instead of the explicit call to maybe-make-load-forms, change the call to (setf entry-info-arguments) to take (constant-value (find-constant args)) instead of args? 14:44:22 *nyef* builds that change. 14:44:24 actually, i was thinking of doing that in ir1-convert-lambda when it sets the functional-arg-documentation 14:45:15 on the plus side, it's now not just me who has broken this series for everyone 14:45:24 Heh. 14:46:05 nikodemus: I'll certainly defer to your judgement on this, given how unfamiliar I am with this part of the compiler. 14:46:26 but since functional-arg-documentaion doesn't seem to have any other users, i don't see that it makes any difference -- well, actually, your way is probably better: less work to do if we don't end up needing the arglist 14:46:53 ...i know constants, but not arglists :) 14:47:49 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@93-141-93-119.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:11 nyef: I added a test case (which can trivially extended to also test for pathnames), so you can run sh tests/compiler.test.sh 14:49:25 tcr: I saw, thanks. 14:49:36 But the current case is actually in-core compilation, not pathnames. 14:50:45 I'm not entirely sure how to build a test case for this beyond just trying it. :-/ 14:51:32 that sounds like a good test to me 14:51:52 Yeah, but I meant for the test suite. 14:52:04 Though there will probably be an example in there already for this sort of thing. 14:52:23 (assert (functionp (eval '(lambda (&optional (x #p"foo.txt")) (open x)))) 14:52:26 compiler.pure.lisp has a whole bunch of "this compilation should succeed" 14:53:38 so, random libraries question; I have a bit of code for doing things like base64 and similar encodings; should that be stuck in ironclad or is it sufficiently useful in non-crypto contexts to merit its own library? 14:53:40 nikodemus: Doesn't that pop a debugger on the AVER? 14:54:12 froydnj: Own library. I've needed base64-decode and such on random database junk. 14:54:45 nyef: the tests are run with --disable-debugger 14:54:48 Admittedly, it's fantastically unlikely that I'd have written a lisp program to get at it, but... 14:54:51 Xof: Ah. 14:55:19 nyef: databases? really? 14:55:28 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:53 froydnj: Yeah, it was some maniac system where they had this wierd flowcharty process language, encoded it as XML, encoded the XML in base64, then split the base64 at something like 160 character boundaries and stuffed it in a limited-width text field in a database table with another field serving as a sequence number and a third as a document id. 14:57:25 And all the while I was thinking "why the hell didn't they stick with what they had two major versions ago instead of this crap?!?" 14:57:29 nyef: *boggle* 14:57:37 s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-230-194.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:46 Hello if I have the array #(1 2 3) how can I "crop" it to #(1 2) in a functional manner? 14:57:54 p0a: subseq 14:57:59 thanks 14:58:31 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.79.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:00 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has joined #lisp 14:59:51 Okay, looks like the fix-fix works, more or less... Next is the test case. 15:01:31 how can I find out the subscripts of an array? 15:01:43 For example (foo (make-array '(2 2))) => (2 2) 15:01:56 ... You mean the dimensions? 15:02:00 right 15:02:04 ... 15:02:08 (Subscripts always seemed to me to be for access only.) 15:02:22 That "dimensions" thing was a hint, btw. 15:02:24 p0a: suprisingly enough, array-dimensions 15:02:24 alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has joined #lisp 15:02:28 Me too, I couldn't remember the right word 15:02:34 thanks again 15:02:41 rajesh [n=rajesh@cpe-68-173-54-94.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:44 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:52 p0a: there's this nice function called APROPOS in Common Lisp 15:05:11 Actually, DESCRIBE on MAKE-ARRAY would likely have been more help. 15:05:16 Just to pop the arglist. 15:06:29 eek 15:06:48 clisp DESCRIBE will cheerfully kick off a http request to the ai repo's hyperspec index. 15:08:21 milanj [n=milan@109.93.33.54] has joined #lisp 15:09:57 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2129.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:19 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [No route to host] 15:10:42 you can customize the url to point to your local copy 15:11:09 tcr: I'm not surprised at the URL, but I generally don't expect a fetch of an external resource like that in general. 15:12:30 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 15:12:39 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:13:29 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["bye"] 15:13:35 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 15:14:28 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 15:14:59 Does anyone have a cl-ppcre regexp for urls at hand? 15:16:13 minion: tell tcr about puri 15:16:14 tcr: look at puri: puri, Portable Universal Resource Identifier, is a networking library for parsing and representing URIs. http://www.cliki.net/puri 15:16:26 ;) 15:16:54 are uris a regular language? 15:17:09 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:17:11 nikodemus: I could believe that. 15:17:19 tcr: what do you need from an the url? 15:17:34 froydnj: I don't want to parse them, just recognize them 15:18:10 (since all my domains have slash in them, i run afoul of broken email and uri-validators regularly) 15:18:28 a slash? 15:18:34 random-state.net 15:18:35 s/slash/dash/? 15:18:38 a virgule? a hyphen? 15:18:40 oh, right 15:18:47 the horizontal thingy 15:19:09 morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d2129.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:22:33 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@217.230.209.9] has quit [] 15:23:22 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:24:38 _stack_ [n=vincent@laptop-147-210-129-163.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 15:24:57 <_stack_> hello 15:25:19 tcr: ".*:.*" 15:26:22 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-383698.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["leaving"] 15:26:34 oh, no, that doesn't catch relative URIs 15:26:53 You suck indeed. :-) 15:26:59 ".*", then 15:27:05 Xof: i'd think URI cannot be relative 15:27:12 you would be wrong 15:27:18 URI-reference = [ absoluteURI | relativeURI ] [ "#" fragment ] 15:27:49 (rfc 2396) 15:27:59 <_stack_> Xof: I'd like to submit a proper patch for the NetBSD/amd64 port of sbcl, what is the most convenient way for you? The sourceforge bugtracker, sbcl-devel, private mail? 15:28:16 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2129.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:28:24 _stack_: sbcl-devel, with a patch against HEAD. 15:28:32 defeats the "universal" part of the acronym 15:28:35 <_stack_> pkhuong: thanks! 15:28:50 _stack_: as pkhuong says! Thanks 15:29:10 <_stack_> Xof: thank you 15:29:14 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.79.253] has joined #lisp 15:29:22 macrolet on keywords...? 15:29:22 we haven't had a new platform in ages 15:29:29 MORE PLATFORMS 15:30:13 froydnj: sure... 15:30:17 Xof: anyways, i'd call the relative URI a location (or path), not a URI. but whatever. 15:30:57 froydnj: but wait, it can get better! automatically generated fdefinitions based on a store-value restart for undefined functions on keywords 15:31:04 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-224.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:31:15 i wonder whether it is at all possible write a recogniser for relative URIs 15:31:29 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-200-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:04 Xof: ... Why would we need a store-value restart? A use-value or retry restart should be sufficient. 15:32:10 ok, fess up: who gave xof coffee? 15:32:12 /home/foo - perfect URI right there 15:32:22 http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/64f047bb9678b9da?hl=en&dmode=source 15:32:24 nikodemus: not me! 15:32:29 I am just remembering past glories 15:33:03 Xof: ... Are you sure that that #\l is supposed to be in that last word? 15:33:09 :-) 15:33:21 you young whippersnappers 15:33:57 tcr: I can live with an increase in core size of 5-6 millibytes 15:34:12 *froydnj* sobs quietly 15:34:18 how did matthieu villeneuve get himself a person on the cl-users map? 15:34:54 madnificent: maybe he has a picture associated with his google account? 15:34:55 Besides, do we even -have- any restarts for undefined-functions in SBCL? I know I've written a proof-of-concept a couple times, but I don't know that anything was ever committed. 15:35:14 jdz: dunno, it looks like an image that belongs to google maps 15:35:17 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 15:35:29 nyef: it hasn't been. I'd quite like them, but not enough to do the work to finish your patches 15:35:39 Fair enough. 15:36:00 Most of what they needed was backend support, though, I think. 15:36:12 how often is the sharing of mmaped cores useful? 15:36:23 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [] 15:36:33 pkhuong: theoretically, very. in practice...? 15:36:50 Right, *useful* (: 15:37:02 boo for practicality concerns 15:37:12 we should talk to users 15:37:17 Umm... I did think about making it switch on trap_Error v. trap_Cerror, but the backends aren't consistent about using error instead of cerror. 15:37:18 they might have an opinion 15:37:32 #lisp-ers of the world! 15:37:37 -!- mfo [i=mfo@orm.abc.se] has left #lisp 15:38:34 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:38:50 ./make.sh --with-bzip2 (: 15:39:38 pkhuong: i believe our friends in cambridge ma like sharing cores quite a lot 15:40:40 and presumably so would anyone running multiple instances of large cores with embedded datasets on servers 15:40:47 madnificent: it is possible to change the icon when clicking the edit button 15:41:25 ....but :compress would make a nice save-lisp-and-die option 15:41:30 jdz: I especially wondered as it felt like we all used the wrong one :) 15:42:00 pkhuong: do you have something ready, or are you thinking out loud? 15:43:00 nikodemus: I had half a hack at some point. But if I ever get SBCL time, I should focus on correctness issues in FP (: 15:43:20 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 15:43:56 I'd also like your opinion on how derived optimization qualities are derived. Currently, we assume that 1, being the "default value", means that we should compute the actual value. 15:44:26 yes 15:45:20 I'd rather have the derivation happen only when no value is specified... But it would then be good to undeclare qualities. 15:48:25 FP? 15:49:20 floating point. Some from my SSE work this summer, and others long-standing. 15:49:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 15:50:21 ah, yes, indeed 15:54:26 -!- gz` [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:32 lichtblau: do you happen to know whether cl+ssl still broken in Allegro? 15:57:11 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:48 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:01:37 luis`: I do not know (and in fact wasn't aware of it being broken in the first place). 16:02:10 pkhuong: iirc james had some arguments about the derived policy handling, but i can't remember offhand what 16:02:32 luis`: oh, wait. never mind. I was confusing things. 16:03:13 It was still broken the last time I checked, and I didn't see any patch or report on the mailing list that would indicate that things have changed. 16:03:21 lichtblau: I'm asking because it says so in that table in the webpage. Thanks. 16:03:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:10 Well, I don't know whether avodonosov takes cares of the web page or only the code. 16:05:04 G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.99.63] has joined #lisp 16:06:47 Heh, ok. Thanks. 16:08:02 -!- ASau` [n=user@host183-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 16:08:32 Okay, hopefully that finally puts bug 310132 to bed. 16:10:58 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229082101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 16:11:31 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:14:44 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:19 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@193.227.111.165] has quit ["leaving"] 16:16:51 What is the opinion of SBCL maintainers about making "&OPTIONAL and &KEY found in the same lambda list" muffleable separately from other STYLE-WARNINGS? 16:17:10 rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:20 patch that makes it a distinct condition class is welcome 16:17:43 Good! 16:18:06 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:18:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:18:42 One of the random projects that I've thought about off-and-on for a bit is going through SBCL and making the condition class hierarchy far more specific, but it sounds like a bit of work and would probably adversely affect the core size. 16:19:21 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229082101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:23 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:37 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@117.195.97.235] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:20:44 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:20:45 patch that detects things like (foo x :bar t) when the lambda-list is (x &optional y &key bar) -- and warns would be even more welcome :) 16:21:16 shomer [n=shomer@cpc2-stkn8-0-0-cust464.midd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:22 that one is probably already caught, from odd number of keywords, isn't it? 16:21:24 acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has joined #lisp 16:21:26 nipra_ [n=nipra@117.195.99.63] has joined #lisp 16:21:28 Warns that you're passing an odd number of args to a keyword list? 16:21:37 it's (x &optional y z &key bar) that's the problem 16:22:53 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 16:23:08 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:23:33 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 16:23:40 point 16:24:10 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:24:14 And for that, there's not really much you can do if :bar is a legal value for y. 16:24:29 nyef: have you done (sb-vm::instance-usage :dynamic) recently? 16:24:40 Nope. 16:24:56 I think that this problem is mostly obsoleted by slime's arglist. 16:25:12 deepfire: For those who run SLIME, maybe. 16:25:12 Er, slime's arglist hinting. 16:25:41 SB-C::COMPILED-DEBUG-FUN: 3,113,488 bytes, 27,799 objects. 16:26:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:26:26 nikodemus: So, what do you think about the possibility of having GENESIS dump out a proper gencgc page table structure and separate out unboxed arrays and code components properly? 16:26:31 ...classoids don't even figure 16:26:47 nyef: why would genesis have to do it? 16:26:57 oh, wait 16:27:01 hm 16:27:14 Also allows for ditching the gencgc_partial_pickup hack. 16:27:27 not really, since we want it for saved cores anywyas 16:27:42 No, because saved cores already have a valid page table. 16:28:00 oh, _that_ part 16:28:04 :) 16:28:27 iirc our cores don't have much in the way of unboxed arrays 16:28:33 deepfire: no, it's still a fantastically bad idea to design APIs with &optional and &key 16:29:04 The cold cores don't, but that's at least partly because we have no guarantees from the host system about array type upgrading. 16:29:32 exhibit A is read-from-string, but exhibits B C D E and F are note-output-record-child-changed 16:29:39 nyef: so aside from the partial pickup hack, what's the advantage? 16:29:49 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:30:40 Not leaving it up to the first GC to sort out? I don't know, I just think that it would be possible to do. 16:31:21 *Xach* wonders if avoiding opening files multiple times is worth the trouble of open-stream lifetime management 16:32:07 Xach: I'm going to go with "not until profiling suggests that it is". 16:32:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:27 if you can do it without adding number of magical dependencies between gc and genesis, i don't have a problem 16:32:37 ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has joined #lisp 16:32:50 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 16:33:00 (eg, if page-table layout moves to genesis and goes to a generated header, that sounds nice to me) 16:33:06 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:33:22 So dependencies are okay, so long as genesis holds the canonical form? 16:33:24 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:33:30 -!- ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has left #lisp 16:33:46 as long as there is no more OnceAndOnlyOnceMore :) 16:34:11 (I'd also like to move the thread state constants over to the lisp side, after having done the SPORK hack of bug 451111.) 16:34:30 then ROOM & SB-INTROSPECT could use the same page-table information 16:34:41 There you go. 16:35:47 gz [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:51 -!- alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:56 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:37:47 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:38 -!- _stack_ [n=vincent@laptop-147-210-129-163.labri.fr] has quit ["bye"] 16:40:14 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:02 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:42:15 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:43:41 *luis`* finds about the slime class browser, heh. 16:43:56 felideon [n=felideon@74.186.235.232] has joined #lisp 16:46:06 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:46:22 -!- shomer [n=shomer@cpc2-stkn8-0-0-cust464.midd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 16:47:48 -!- nareshov [n=nareshov@unaffiliated/nareshov] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:14 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:34 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:53:42 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:54:54 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:55:07 -!- gz [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:12 gz [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:47 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:40 c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has joined #lisp 16:59:59 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:00:38 -!- cvandusen [n=user@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:00:50 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 17:02:42 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:59 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 17:03:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:04:24 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.79.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:26 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:06:04 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ybcqeevvuryuzcky] has joined #lisp 17:06:43 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.183] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 17:06:53 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:07:25 -!- hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:00 ejs [n=eugen@135-212-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:00 ve [n=a@cpat002.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:16:12 how much does it suck? 17:16:14 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:19:28 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 17:21:39 -!- varjag [n=eugene@62.97.226.122] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:23:01 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:25:19 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:57 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-71-211.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:27:56 chicagogrooves [n=deanmisc@chi-pat.cashnetusa.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:19 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:26 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:44 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:30:58 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 17:31:13 -!- chicagogrooves [n=deanmisc@chi-pat.cashnetusa.com] has left #lisp 17:31:22 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:34:14 -!- ejs [n=eugen@135-212-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:36:41 gz` [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:43 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-149.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:40:06 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:22 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:01 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:42:14 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:42:33 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:42:35 -!- acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:46:12 Has anyone thought about ways to reverse-map expanded type-specifiers? E.g. to get FIXNUM from `(MOD ,most-positive-fixnum) 17:47:51 um, what? 17:48:09 (mod #.most-positive-fixnum) is not the same as fixnum 17:48:31 jmbr [n=jmbr@189.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:49:49 billitch_ [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has joined #lisp 17:49:55 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:55:12 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:56:09 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ybcqeevvuryuzcky] has left #lisp 17:57:09 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 17:57:28 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:00:07 ejs [n=eugen@118-21-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:59 acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has joined #lisp 18:06:26 -!- billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:06:27 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 18:06:30 At the same time, isn't it a matter of just mapping to primitive types and back? 18:06:53 Or maybe some union of primitive types and specialized array element types? 18:09:02 emacsed [n=church@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 18:10:28 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:11:08 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 18:12:03 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@193.60.95.74] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 18:13:42 Or if you're looking for some notion of "more convenient type" for some purpose, then you might get away with some set of transform rules, such as (mod x) where (= (logcount x) 1) => `(unsigned-byte ,(floor (log x 2))). 18:14:36 Err... Did I really do that? Too much math on the brain. (1- (integer-length x)), not (floor (log x 2)). 18:17:41 if I want to have a class in one package inherit a class from another package, is it enough to do something like (defpackage bar_pkg (:use :mother_package)) (defclass bar (foo) (...)), where foo is a class :export-ed by the mother_package? 18:18:23 bulibuta: yes, but. 18:18:26 I cannot get the newest SBCL to compile (using 1.0.31.32), http://common-lisp.net/~lhealy/compile-sbcl.out. Is there a simple solution to this (using clbuild if that matters). 18:18:32 Yes. It is also sufficient to (defclass bar (mother_package:foo) (...)) in the absence of the :use. 18:18:39 just do (defclass subclass (other-package:superclass) ...) 18:18:39 bulibuta: packages deal solely with *symbols*, so you're not exporting a class, you're exporting its name. 18:18:50 okay 18:18:59 LiamH: run ./clean.sh 18:19:06 bulibuta: and that means other things with that name are accessible too, so consider that too. 18:19:12 I tried both, with the :use and with the pkg:superclass 18:19:17 stassats: OK, will try. 18:21:08 Xach: okay, so going further. the superclass has a size attribute that I want to set implicitly in the subclass. and I do it like this (size :initform 3). but then if I do (make-instance 'subclass) I get an error from the superclass that :size wasn't set 18:21:52 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:02 all the code is here if this is to vague or stupidly explained: http://gitorious.org/ai-fun/ai-fun/trees/master 18:22:53 it might look a bit poorly indented in some places because I use a tab of 4 spaces and gitorious assumes 8 all the time 18:23:26 bulibuta: no need to mangle names of instances in defmethod argument lists. 18:23:43 ... You know, tabs are globally assumed to be 8 spaces. This is not a matter of user preference, it is a matter of community consensus. 18:24:20 nyef: I agree, I use 8 as well. the colleague I'm working on this with does not 18:24:40 So replace the tabs with spaces and give the code back. >:-) 18:24:48 M-x untabify 18:25:00 nostoi [n=nostoi@42.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:01 Ooh. New command! 18:25:13 I'm new to emacs as well :-) so thank you for that 18:25:26 stassats: That worked, thanks for the tip. 18:25:41 Xach: you mean this: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((brd board) &key) 18:25:47 bulibuta: yes. 18:25:58 bulibuta: I can't reproduce your make-instance problem. 18:26:31 if you run (x-and-0-run (make-instance 'x-and-0-board)) you get to play? :-) 18:26:38 Xof: Yeah sorry about that 18:26:39 or (test-manual-game) for that matter 18:26:53 nyef: Well it gets more interesting with derived types 18:27:03 where a set of transform won't work anymore 18:27:08 tcr: Yeah, it would, but it's a start, right? 18:27:29 bulibuta: No, I tried a simpler example of a superclass with an initform of (error ...) and a subclass with an initform value. 18:27:44 ah 18:27:53 nyef: Yeah that's true. It'll get rid of that magic number at least 18:27:53 must be something really stupid on my end then... 18:28:15 TR2N [i=email@89.180.140.144] has joined #lisp 18:28:22 *nyef* remembers figuring out how type unparsing works for alien types. 18:28:35 Well, at least part of how it works. 18:28:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@118-21-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:28:56 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:00 damn it, I have to go. I'll be back later. thanks guys. 18:29:46 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 18:30:37 nyef: In principle, there could be a weak hash-table mapping back from deftype expansion to original expression. I wonder how much memory that would suck up 18:30:50 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:30:54 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:31:05 tcr: hah. (unpublished)? 18:31:20 hi guys, how does one cycle quickly back to the previous command on the repl in slime? I've been using slime-repl-backward-input, which is listed as , but hitting Ctrl and the up-arrow doesn't do the trick... 18:31:24 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest44752 18:31:28 Xach: I mean it's not released 18:31:30 -!- gz [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:31:37 Shamwow: M-p 18:32:08 tcr: The issue there becomes that it's trying to reverse a lossy process and might go too far. Sometimes you actually meant (unsigned-byte 29) and not positive-fixnum. 18:32:18 M-p is more powerful than C-up and may not do what you expect if you have unfinished input 18:32:20 C-up and M-p are slightly different 18:32:36 *nikodemus* agrees with nyef 18:32:37 in case of unfinished input, M-p will search backward for similiar looking inputs in the history 18:32:39 Xach: that works like regex search for commands beginning with what is typed... what about just going up one command? 18:32:50 on the other hand, what M-p does with unfinished input is often annoying 18:32:51 Shamwow: C-a C-k M-p :) 18:32:59 tcr: what's the user-interface you have in mind? 18:33:13 nikodemus: http://common-lisp.net/project/sequence-iterators/ 18:33:22 Xach: hah 18:33:27 nikodemus: I added an sb-introspect:function-type which returns the ftype of a function 18:33:30 Xach: okay, fair enough... 18:33:32 Xach: except when you have unfinished multi-line input... 18:33:36 nikodemus: and I use that information for my documentation as you can see 18:33:45 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@131.159.19.90] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:16 oh, right -- so you'd like nicer types for your things 18:34:17 Shamwow: C-up is what you need then, or rebind it 18:34:18 nikodemus: I wondered to offer a :prettify parameter for that function. 18:34:46 nikodemus: (Possibly the user has to provide some kind of prettifier function which does controls the unparsing) 18:34:50 how about just providing a list of preferred types? 18:35:01 yeah a map, hmm 18:35:52 :pretty-types '((and unsigned-byte fixnum) array-index octet) 18:36:12 stassats: C-up puts out "5A"... 18:36:23 doesn't even need to be a map -- just a list of type-designators you prefer to use when they are type= to the canonical type 18:37:21 nikodemus: Well, I thought if SBCL maintained a map from expansion -> several original expressions, I could loop over the original expressions and look for a symbol from my package, and if it's there I'd use it 18:37:22 Shamwow: terminal fun 18:37:24 Shamwow: blame your terminal 18:37:48 Xach: stassats: oh... right... my bad 18:38:59 *Xach* has the same problem with screen+org-mode right now 18:39:34 Xach: I've managed to rebind screen commands alright, but yes, the term settings are frustrating 18:39:34 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-5-59.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:40:30 tcr: i noticed a few typos in your presentation. do you care about them? 18:40:49 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 18:40:54 antgreen [n=green@CPE00222d6f7049-CM00222d6f7045.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:58 not in the presentation, but in the documentation I do care 18:41:05 ok 18:41:13 *Xach* will note any documentation bugs he finds 18:41:24 tcr: i'm not sure that sounds reasonable -- not when you could equally well loop over type-symbols in your package to replace arbitrary expansions 18:42:08 tcr: the presentation is nice and i'm glad you are working on the project! 18:43:08 Thanks I only started it with being annoyed by nikodemus' carelessness about alexandria :-) 18:43:29 and then the endeavors grew 18:43:43 *nikodemus* hides 18:44:07 what's the set function for finding elements that are in both sets? (set-exclusive-and)? 18:44:09 nikodemus: I'm not saying it's reasonable :-) but I fail to see how the looping should work? 18:44:23 Shamwow: set-intersection 18:44:36 tcr: beautiful! thanks 18:44:46 nikodemus: the looping would only work for cases where deftypes do not take an argument 18:44:46 just intersection, IIRC 18:45:03 clhs intersection 18:45:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_isec_.htm 18:45:12 nikodemus: so you can decide on (equal (typexpand 'foo) expansion) 18:45:24 true -- or the prettifier would need to know more about them 18:45:28 *luis`* pokes nikodemus and/or tcr 18:45:36 ouch 18:45:40 I've got some alexandria patches on the mailing list. :) 18:45:57 I'm not involved in alexandria 18:45:59 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@42.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:46:09 (as someone who has anything to say) 18:46:13 *luis`* unpokes tcr 18:46:17 i have unread alexandria mails, so i can easily believe that 18:46:22 :-) 18:46:56 i'll try to get to them during this week 18:47:00 nikodemus: The initial set of people behind alexandria seem not to be there anymore (segv), have no real interest (beach), or lack of time (you) 18:47:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:47:56 time comes and goes :) 18:48:30 tcr: yeah 18:48:56 luis: i see a faster whichever, 18:48:59 what else? 18:49:15 nikodemus: hmm, I think that's it actually. 18:49:25 ok, cool 18:50:17 nikodemus: there's also john fremlin's get-alist 18:50:25 (though to be honest with alexandria & me it has been more of a case of energy than time -- i had time to roll up a 1.0 during summer, but i just didn't have the energy) 18:50:25 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D109.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:32 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.183] has joined #lisp 18:51:11 -!- ragnul is now known as rahul 18:52:03 -!- Guest44752 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 18:54:34 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:56:56 *luis`* found some funny utilities at his new company 18:57:09 RAC and SNOC in particular 18:57:30 snoc is xcons? 18:57:41 What's xcons? 18:57:55 (flip #'cons) 18:58:08 What's flip? :) 18:58:19 I'm sorry, you're not hip enough. 18:58:24 tcr: in SEQUENCE-INDEX, i think you mean non-negative instead of positive? 18:58:35 andy_chicago [n=andy@onshore-gw.logika.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:58 nikodemus: yes indeed 18:59:06 It's really array-index 18:59:13 (snoc x y) => (append y (list x)) 18:59:21 bah 18:59:22 *cmm* is at a loss as to what RAC could ever mean 18:59:33 cmm: (car (last l)) 18:59:54 cmm: RAC and SNOC are CAR and CONS reversed. 19:00:12 question: how can I get the arg-list passed to an encapsulated function in sbcl? 19:00:16 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-4-208.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:00:21 yes, it's the domain of the reversal I was confused about 19:00:35 makes sense now that it's been explained 19:00:53 andy_chicago: I think that you are looking for "apply", but I am not sure what you mean with encapsulated 19:01:04 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:01:04 gigamonkey [n=user@user-64-9-233-244.googlewifi.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:10 Word. 19:01:17 a function that has been encapsulated using sb-int:encapsulate 19:01:40 gigamonkey: Sentence. 19:01:43 Yo. 19:02:03 I'm just chilling in the McDonalds near the Google campus, getting ready to go give a talk about C@W. 19:02:13 I'm trying to write some tests and I don't want to change the function just for testing purposes, so I'd rather encapsulate it, capture the return value, and move on 19:02:29 gigamonkey: Coders at Work as so awesome the typos didn't even bother me much. :) 19:02:58 luis`: Yeah. Sigh. 19:03:02 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-1-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:03:15 andy_chicago: sb-int is not supported stuff 19:03:16 You didn't run it through a spell checker? 19:03:18 Good news is a 3rd printing is in the works so we'll have a chance to fix them. So email me any you find. 19:03:33 well crud 19:03:43 tcr: Spelling should be good, modulo the ever-present possibility of homonyms. 19:03:44 it's grotty internals -- so you're best off reading the source if you want to use it 19:04:06 ok 19:04:11 andy_chicago: this might help: http://blog.viridian-project.de/2008/05/04/function-encapsulation-in-sbcl/ 19:04:17 gigamonkey: I'm pretty sure I found a an it's instead of its, somewhere. ;-) 19:04:26 luis`: No doubt. 19:04:44 gigamonkey: anyway, I loved the segways in the first chapters. Very well laid out. 19:04:51 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:04:55 segues? 19:05:02 yeah, I saw that 19:05:04 Segways are those funny scooters. ;-) 19:05:32 (let ((orig (fdefinition name))) (setf (fdefinition name) (lambda (&rest args) ... (apply orig args))) ; is what i would do, most likely -- plus a bit to remove the wrapper once you don't need it anymore 19:06:04 ok 19:06:19 gigamonkey: if a certain bespectacled person asks you why you didn't interview Wall and Straustrup, tell him you've been warned :) 19:06:20 that could work better for my purposes 19:06:32 gigamonkey: oh yeah, ups. 19:06:39 i would like to officially point out that SB-INT:ENCAPSULATE sucks donkey anatomy, and is pretty slow to boot 19:06:56 cmm: okay. 19:07:23 well, speed isn't an issue of concern for tests 19:07:25 not that you don't expect such questions, I guess 19:07:48 but thanks 19:08:06 gigamonkey: What will your talk be about? 19:08:11 Highlights of the book? 19:08:15 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:21 *nikodemus* goes home 19:09:36 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-blbhqdwycpcofiez] has joined #lisp 19:09:58 tcr: basically. Trying to draw some lessons from the book. 19:10:19 It'll be up on Google Video in a week or so. 19:10:26 lesson like: make another one! :} 19:10:40 sentence! 19:10:57 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:11:08 -!- vng [n=demen@123.20.127.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:12:03 I like how in this McDonalds, which is quite a ways down the road from Google, there are two accessible wireless networks, GoogleWiFi and GoogleWiFiSecure. 19:12:50 :) 19:12:50 I wonder if they convinced the McDonalds to install an access point or do they just have some really powerful access points/antennas back on the campus? 19:13:16 gigamonkey: is the talk about C@W? 19:13:27 guaqua: yup. 19:13:37 nothing a good tin foil cap wouldn't, uh, foil 19:13:48 interesting. pcl talk would have been interesting as well, though :) 19:14:10 guaqua: gigamonkey has done a tech talk about CL before 19:14:13 guaqua: it was, in fact 19:14:14 guaqua: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=448441135356213813# 19:14:22 darned 19:14:43 oh well, there goes 'going to bed early' 19:15:11 Okay, folks. See you later. 19:15:15 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE00222d6f7049-CM00222d6f7045.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:33 gigamonkey: good luck. 19:15:41 Thanks. Bye. 19:17:14 -!- billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:17:38 cvanduse` [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 19:17:39 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:47 billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has joined #lisp 19:19:42 -!- cvanduse` [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:10 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 19:22:50 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@189.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:13 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@user-64-9-233-244.googlewifi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:23:16 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:24:07 ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:24:14 hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.21] has joined #lisp 19:25:25 -!- ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:37 de_fault [n=de_fault@88.238.177.42] has joined #lisp 19:26:42 i bought an old imac g3 (probably original one, not a revision model, i don't exactly now since the owner haven't delivered it to me yet) and i want to use it as my common lisp environment, but i don't know which combination to use, i guess it may not be able to run mac os x, and as far as i know recently maintained common lisp implementations doesn't support versions of mac os before os x, so i guess i'll install a ppc linux version and use one of these i 19:28:33 and i couldn't find information on if movitz work on ppc or not, can anyone guide me on this? 19:29:02 mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 19:29:05 it doesn't 19:29:07 de_fault: movitz does not work on ppc 19:29:12 Apple has basically abandoned all PPC systems, absolutely you're better off running linux on it. 19:29:27 but i doubt you would want to use it as your cl environment 19:29:38 stassats: why? 19:30:28 obviously, because it's unusable, unless you are willing to put some time on it 19:30:30 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:30:53 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:31:32 Don't most lisp impls work reasonably okay on PPC linux? 19:32:00 SBCL lacks threads, but should be otherwise okay I think. What about clozure? 19:33:01 _deepfire pasted "misdeduction of type in SBCL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90247 19:33:03 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:34:44 deepfire: something seems to have gone wrong with that paste 19:34:51 stassats: btw, i'm just a hobbyist, so i'm probably not going to write something to distribute, considering this, being able to write common lisp and run it even when it is really slow is enough for me, i just need it to run a nice lisp implementation like sbcl or ccl 19:35:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:15 _deepfire: (cdr (assoc ...)) ? 19:35:17 mstevens_ [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:35:34 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:36:14 nostoi [n=nostoi@42.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:28 de_fault: Clozure CL should be great on PPC Linux. 19:36:44 froydnj, but I can have improper lists in the alist, no? 19:36:59 Oh, sorry. 19:37:28 -!- andy_chicago [n=andy@onshore-gw.logika.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:45:35 sellout: that's it then, ccl on debian ppc, wish me luck :) 19:47:26 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D109.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:47:36 -!- frontier1 [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:49:00 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.60.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:11 ziga` [n=user@89.142.60.237] has joined #lisp 19:49:37 ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-239-96.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 19:51:44 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 19:52:39 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 19:53:32 In Lisps with locatives (not CL or RnRS Scheme), does anyone know whether GCs were able to reclaim parts of an otherwise-garbage object pointed to by the locative? 19:53:36 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:55:05 jcowan, I assume it makes sense to provide both behaviors -- strong and weak locatives. But I'm theorising. 19:55:33 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:00 Is there a function to (remove '(0 1 2 3 4 5) 3) => (0 1 2 4 5) ? 19:56:12 -!- emacsed [n=church@72.8.31.2] has quit [Client Quit] 19:56:31 remove ? 19:56:44 that's a lousy example. is that 3 the index or the item? 19:56:46 I actually wasn't referring to weak or strong locatives, rather to this case; I have a vector of size 10^7, a (strong) locative to 12345th location, and no links to the vector as a whole. In principle the GC could replace the vector with a magic object that occupies only 1 word of storage. Did anyone ever do that? 19:57:02 jsnell: preferably item 19:57:02 s/;/: 19:57:16 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 19:57:24 clhs remove 19:57:24 -!- de_fault [n=de_fault@88.238.177.42] has left #lisp 19:57:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 19:57:25 Retardedpope: have you been introduced to CLHS? 19:58:16 sykopomp: kind of... 19:58:23 jsnell: is a locative like a pointer?... 19:58:36 sykopomp: having trouble navigating it though 19:58:49 Retardedpope: you'll learn. Then you'll love it. 20:00:52 jsnell: I've never heard of them. googling yields the lisp machine manual. Says a locative is "used as a /pointer/ to a /cell/", so I guess it probably is... 20:00:59 sykopomp: I don't care 20:01:16 gz_ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:26 Locatives are more or less first-class setf-targets. 20:01:58 jsnell: oh, sorry, I meant to highlight jcowan. :) 20:02:07 Pointers into the internals of things. 20:02:12 ah 20:02:26 jcowan: what was the use case in lisp machines? 20:02:28 -!- gz_ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:02:56 I'll go out and check on the Lisp Machine in the corridor. 20:03:02 Oh, $*@#, it's broken today. 20:03:18 :P 20:03:44 well, there's always the vic20 frogger instead 20:03:47 (I'm at Google NYC, so there really *is* a Symbolics Lisp machine in the corridor, along with various other old boxen.) 20:04:00 hey, awesome :P 20:04:28 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has joined #lisp 20:04:41 jcowan: do you have a VMS, a PDP-11, and a Alpha to complete the collection? :P 20:04:49 at teh Googies 20:05:34 a VMS? 20:05:36 No, only desktop machines here. There may be some somewhere, but they aren't as interesting to look at and play with. 20:05:39 hello all, what's the most idiomatic way of writing byte vector to file? 20:05:41 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-151-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:57 akamaus: write-sequence of a vector with element-type (unsigned-byte 8) 20:05:58 schme: a VAX running VMS, my mistake :P 20:06:07 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has left #lisp 20:06:20 SETF more or less provides what locatives do, except for not being first-class: you can't pass the first argument of SETF to a function and let it use SET to change it (okay, you can fake it with EVAL). 20:06:25 Adamant: I'd rather run it on the alpha there. But oh well. 20:06:28 Xach, thanks! 20:06:56 jcowan: you can use closures to implement locatives 20:07:02 there is a locf macro out there somewhere 20:07:27 michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 20:07:44 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:07:57 When I get "*** - /: division by zero" How do I know where it's deviding by zero? 20:08:17 you should be able to examine the stack trace 20:08:28 probably by typing :bt at the debugger prompt 20:08:37 Retardedpope: if that happened to me, i would compile with high debug, go to frame in slime, hit "v" 20:09:55 I'm not using slime... can I do it gnu clisp somehow? 20:10:27 well, you can do it somehow, by running the functions that slime runs :) 20:10:36 ericklc [n=ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 20:10:39 Retardedpope: if I was in clisp, I would read the clisp manual regarding its debugger. 20:10:44 or look at the help that their own debugger provides 20:10:52 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:11:03 that makes sense 20:11:30 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 20:12:40 -!- mstevens_ [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 20:15:02 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 20:15:29 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:01 jcowan: http://www.hexapodia.net/pipermail/small-cl-src/2004-June/000016.html 20:16:28 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 20:16:34 ok, here's another slime question 20:16:35 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:52 which bit of this stack of software is responsible for mis-indenting my do* forms 20:16:55 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest22043 20:17:30 <_3b> indenting is probably emacs unless you load the slime indentation contrib 20:17:49 *Xach* has had serious problems with indentation lately 20:18:01 -!- michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has quit [] 20:18:11 <_3b> yeah, it has been annoying lately :( 20:19:22 -!- Guest22043 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 20:20:21 michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 20:21:36 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:51 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:22:04 <_3b> Krystof: , and ,@ are a common source of broken indentation, putting a space after them helps a bit 20:22:22 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:27 -!- michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:24:13 i had trouble with simple loop initially, but it's other stuff too. i should take notes and file a report. 20:24:27 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:38 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:08 MrSmiley909 [n=Mr@r37h66.res.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 20:25:36 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 20:26:30 My nested length fails to return the right length of this list ((NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL) (NIL NIL NIL)) 20:26:37 Hello. What does a hash key in lisp represent? Like #(1 0 1 0). An array? 20:27:05 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 20:27:05 MrSmiley909: you can use many things as a hash key. that #(...) syntax is for an array. 20:27:29 <_3b> by 'hash key' do you mean the character # ? 20:27:41 oh, good call. 20:27:59 MrSmiley909: in the lisp standard, that is called "sharpsign". 20:28:04 my flatten function flattens ((NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL) (NIL NIL NIL)) to NIL... 20:28:05 clhs #( 20:28:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm 20:28:34 _3b: I have no punctuation to mess things up 20:28:45 this is just ordinary do*, and it's misindenting the termination test 20:28:50 Ah thanks guys 20:28:51 fe[nl]ix: 404 on that link. But I'm glad to see that hexapodia is the key insight. 20:28:55 <_3b> Retardedpope: sounds reasonable, you have a list of lists of empty lists :p 20:29:40 it's more obvious if you write it as ((() () () () () () ()) (() () ())) 20:29:40 _3b: Yes, but how do I fix it? 20:29:42 <_3b> Krystof: other guess would be that it somehow isn't figuring out that you mean cl:do* 20:29:51 <_3b> Retardedpope: define your problem better 20:30:14 -!- morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-590d2129.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:26 jcowan: yay for gmane, which saved that post: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.sources.code/17 20:30:32 _3b: I want to count the NILs 20:30:32 francogrex [n=user@91.177.147.12] has joined #lisp 20:30:34 Retardedpope: If you want to handle nil specially, as an atom rather than a list, then change your code to do that. 20:30:47 If you want to discriminate between empty lists and NIL, you are SOL. 20:31:48 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:32:00 _3b: no, sadly, I think it thinks it's indenting cl:do 20:32:17 ok, I will give up and try to fix my code instead 20:32:31 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 20:33:40 <_3b> Krystof: yeah, emacs seems to use the same code for both, how should they differ? 20:33:40 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:27 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:34:55 michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 20:35:08 (do ((foo)) 20:35:12 ((bar)) 20:35:15 vs 20:35:20 (do* ((foo)) 20:35:24 ((bar)) 20:36:44 (for me, the second line of the do* is indented one character too few) 20:37:22 yes, it is 20:37:44 -!- rahul [rjain@clozure-6C5C827B.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 20:39:21 -!- MrSmiley909 [n=Mr@r37h66.res.gatech.edu] has quit ["Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now"] 20:39:33 minion: memo for tcr: broken link to presentation PDF on http://common-lisp.net/project/sequence-iterators/ 20:39:33 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 20:39:33 <_3b> hmm, looks correct here 20:40:10 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:43 fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:56 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:00 <_3b> M-: (get 'do* 'common-lisp-indent-function) in emacs will tell you what it is using to indent it if you want to investigate further, it is set to lisp-indent-do here 20:41:07 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 20:41:49 <_3b> i think the slime indent contrib would set it to cl-indent-do 20:41:57 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.147.12] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:43:22 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:43:25 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D109.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:13 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@42.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:44:25 _3b: that could well be the culprit 20:45:12 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has quit ["sleep"] 20:45:59 ejs [n=eugen@59-17-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:18 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 20:46:23 -!- udzinari` [n=user@nat/ibm/x-jtsdaqaxzfobfyyj] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:46 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:48 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12141.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:47:58 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:49:23 jmbr [n=jmbr@189.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:52:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:49 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-160-244-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:04 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit ["leaving"] 20:58:09 tessier [n=treed@216.105.40.113] has joined #lisp 20:59:12 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-179-172.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 21:03:57 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-75-201.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:03:57 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:04:47 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-160-244-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:08:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@59-17-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:08:57 *nyef* tries the incredibly dangerous command "emerge --sync", and hopes his system survives. 21:09:41 *rahul* can't get this presentation-to-command-translator stuff to work 21:09:55 (define-presentation-to-command-translator set-slot-value (formulated-slot com-set-slot-value formulate :gesture :select) (slot) 21:10:07 SLOT is NIL whever that gets invoked 21:10:13 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:10:24 *rahul* wonders if there's definitons floating around intercepting his code 21:12:40 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:56 if it's any consolation, rahul, you've spurred me into trying to write a clim application 21:13:05 and I discover that I can't remember how to do anything 21:14:02 Pretty soon you won't remember anything about anything. 21:14:25 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:20 Oh, sweet. 640GB notebook drives exist. 21:17:21 heh 21:17:35 it's all about the SSDs 21:17:53 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 21:17:55 prices have just gone through another round of cuts, too 21:18:02 Sure, so long as I can have a 1TB SSD for my system for less than $200. 21:18:04 in case anybody interested I've put up a new version of the partial evaluator at dwim.hu 21:18:20 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-69-19.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:18:25 now it has lots of tests, some slot-value-using-class and make-instance too 21:19:11 the internals are much better factored, but there are still many limitations 21:19:50 still, make-instance for a class with two slots and svuc is partial evaled to a form that is as fast as SBCL's own optimizations 21:20:41 well, SBCL's optimizations are just a hard-coded partial evaluation, basically :) 21:20:52 I'm going to write a blog post about my adventures in this land before the end of the year 21:20:58 you should 21:21:25 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.49.150] has joined #lisp 21:21:38 actually, it might be useful for defeditor, I think 21:21:55 because I need to do lots of re-indentation of the documents 21:22:24 I could partially evaluate some of the indentation code at run time for the document being edited 21:22:39 rahul, hmm, interesting idea 21:22:57 basically, knuth's algorithm applied to lisp and xml code 21:23:17 stick break penalties in forms where breaks would be good or bad 21:23:24 clhs typeof 21:23:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for typeof. 21:23:41 how do I find out if tree is a tree-node? 21:23:47 like a really bad penalty after the function, but a small penalty right after that 21:24:08 Retardedpope: typecase, maybe? 21:24:12 rahul, are you indenting CL code? 21:24:24 levente_meszaros: yes. a structure editor 21:24:41 you resize the window or edit code and it reflows dynamically. 21:25:13 levente_meszaros: it's just as applicable to editing XML and other languages, too 21:25:14 does the indenter understand the code? 21:25:23 it has to parse it, yes 21:25:33 clhs typecase 21:25:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tpcase.htm 21:25:38 has to understand the code at least as well as slime does 21:25:51 but does it know if foo is a function call? 21:26:05 levente_meszaros: the same way slime does. introspection of the symbol 21:26:10 say (lambda (list) (list list list))? 21:26:23 levente_meszaros: that's just basic lisp evaluation rules 21:26:29 slime doesn't know 21:26:31 so there's no code walker involved? 21:26:34 stassats: sure it does 21:26:50 levente_meszaros: code walking in the sense of expanding macros recrusively is not needed 21:27:08 however, it's a structure editor, not a text editor. it parses the code and keeps a parsed structure in memory 21:27:15 rahul: well, try it 21:27:17 rahul, if you don't walk the code you never know what is what 21:27:24 stassats: works for me 21:27:36 stassats: you can defmacro and it will indent the macro according to the arglist 21:27:45 stassats: everything else is assumed to be a function 21:27:54 levente_meszaros: you don't need to macroexpand 21:28:16 levente_meszaros: you just need to parse to get a tree of atoms 21:28:31 rahul: it only knows about &body 21:28:32 atoms being identifiers or atomic literals 21:28:42 stassats: that's mostly what matters 21:28:53 rahul, (lambda (list) (list list)) which list is a variable declaration, which one is a variable reference and which one is a function invocation? 21:28:55 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:29:03 you need to walk the code for know that 21:29:05 stassats: anything else can't be guessed at 21:29:06 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:16 there's cl-walker or the more recent hu.dwim.walker for that 21:29:43 levente_meszaros: lambda's syntax is (lambda (&rest args) &body body) 21:29:55 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:56 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:29:56 levente_meszaros: the first list is part of the args 21:30:06 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:09 syntax is not semantics, and if you indent based on that, you indentation will be pretty much limited 21:30:14 rahul: and how you you handle let lists or other specially-interpreted nesting? 21:30:26 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:30:41 levente_meszaros: you can't indent based on operational semantics 21:30:57 you can't even tell very often where the code came from 21:31:17 pkhuong: the same way any editor does... by having indentation rules 21:31:44 rahul, you can macroexpand and walk the code while keeping the original text positions 21:31:53 if it's not obvious from the arglist of the function, you need to add an indentation rule... 21:32:12 so if the user moves the mouse above a list symbol you know whether it names a function or a variable 21:32:16 levente_meszaros: I don't see how seeing loop organized as tagbody will help me indent it 21:32:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 21:32:36 even if it is defined by (def function (list) (list list)) where def is a really non trivial macro 21:33:02 I have a working example which has both 21:33:04 levente_meszaros: no, you won't be able to know that this is this list and that is that list 21:33:19 loop and tagbody crosslinked while having the original text positions 21:33:42 I used pjb's generic CL source reader and a walker hand in hand 21:33:55 rahul, that's what I saying that you can know 21:34:14 levente_meszaros: do you code walk the code of the macros as well? 21:34:23 to track how the inputs become outputs? 21:34:49 rahul, rather expand, yes some macros might make this fail 21:35:07 e.g. macros which don't reuse the identities of input cons cells 21:35:10 right 21:35:24 for example, a macro defined like my lambda above 21:35:28 and you might have problems with atoms 21:35:50 but some macros can simply called with the parsed source tree instead of atoms, so now you get back the info you need 21:35:56 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:36:13 (defmacro lambda ((&rest args) &body body) will not preserve identity unless the compiler knows that it can optimize (&rest away 21:36:15 by parsed source tree I mean CLOS objects 21:36:24 yes 21:36:27 that's my idea, too 21:36:45 I'll have clos objects for all the reader macros, basically 21:36:58 did you look at pjb's reader? 21:36:59 and all the terminals 21:37:04 no, I haven't 21:37:05 that's a CLOS based standard CL reader 21:37:06 ... syntax objects. 21:37:09 highly customizable 21:37:18 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:37:19 pkhuong: at the microsyntax level 21:37:24 did you see the syntax coloring at dwim.hu? 21:37:42 levente_meszaros: do you think it can be adapted for reading XML too? 21:37:49 that's my goal with my generic-reader 21:37:55 rahul: you can match up to a millionth of a character! 21:37:58 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-200-168.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:37:59 it's done by using that reader, so it can print back the source with the original indentation with a nice syntax highlight 21:38:02 heh 21:38:16 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-145.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:38:23 *rahul* throws a fuchs at antifuchs and forms fuchsonium 21:38:28 rahul, it has all the CL read machinery 21:38:33 I have recently worked with CNC machines. this makes more sense to me than it should 21:38:40 I managed to set up our own reader macros in that reader to 21:38:40 heh 21:38:46 to return syntax objects 21:38:50 for #t and #f 21:38:54 I know you hate it :) 21:39:33 I don't want the original indentaiton, but the CLOS tree sounds cool 21:39:51 rahul, check this http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.partial-eval/test/slot-value.lisp 21:40:47 here is the XHTML unparser: http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.wui/source/component/source/form.lisp 21:40:59 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:09 currently it's 300 LOC 21:41:30 this does not use the walker hand in hand, but I did experiment with that too and had success 21:42:08 so the tooltips are pretty lamely looked up by the symbol without known what it really is in that context 21:42:27 pkhuong, will you take time and comment my blog post about my partial evaluator if I get there? 21:42:43 pkhuong, that would be great 21:42:46 sure, for what that'll be worth. 21:42:51 not to write something really stupid :) 21:43:09 francogrex [n=user@91.177.147.12] has joined #lisp 21:44:02 this sbcl fuckup in win32 file-ending is getting on my nerves. Do you think it can be fixed? 21:44:07 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:41 -!- hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.21] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:44:53 francogrex: It could. It may even be easier now that some other external-format stuff has been committed. 21:45:05 all my "clients" at work have win32 files that I need to process and now I have to manually convert them 21:45:25 levente_meszaros: wow, this is a different coding style 21:45:30 As a stopgap, have you considered using flexi-streams? 21:45:38 nyef: i hope; in the 1.32 release I didn't see any change yet 21:45:45 levente_meszaros: I kind of like it, tho 21:45:46 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:51 rahul, that's the dwim way ;-) 21:46:15 nyef: I think one you or someone else suggested it but it sort bugged or something 21:46:23 right now I am using read-char 21:46:29 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-71-211.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:46:39 but it sucks; i'd like to be able to use read-line 21:46:45 crazy hungarians is all I can say :P 21:46:49 So... read-line and subseq? 21:47:09 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:47:12 I guess if your natural language is going to be totally different from everyone else's, why not make your lisp style different, too :) 21:47:23 rahul, hehe, good point 21:48:18 nyef: yes 21:48:20 sweet, I like your { reader macro 21:48:24 but at least it's not hungarian 21:49:26 I never quite understood Charles'es hungarian notation no matter how hard he tried to explain it 21:49:45 is the change going to be in the underlying assembly of sbcl? 21:49:52 rahul, most of the time XML syntax is turn on for whole files or projects but there the whitespace is also important 21:50:14 so most of the time we don't need the { 21:50:14 levente_meszaros: what would be cool would be a {let-syntax (([ ... define local behavior for [] reading as (:method ...) ...)) (def layered-function ... [...] [...] 21:50:46 yeah 21:51:02 and it allows other usages of < in other code 21:51:35 and those < literals are compiled down to literal utf-8 encoded byte arrays waiting to be sent to the network 21:51:47 yeah 21:51:48 interleaved with runtime calculated parts 21:52:05 yep, I do that, but with macros, not read macros, in defdoc 21:52:30 well, I don't go all the way to actually making sure everything is utf-8 encoded 21:53:08 levente_meszaros, dwim.hu stuff definitely makes an impression 21:53:12 quasi quote can do this even when mixing < and `js 21:53:12 I just build strings at macroexpand time 21:53:19 yeah 21:53:21 cool 21:53:35 actually you can even mix in `str or `binary 21:53:38 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:39 not sure why you would do that 21:54:17 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:54:19 deepfire, thanks, we hope it helps spreading lisp more, that's why it's all BSD 21:54:48 you can earn money with it, we don't care :-) because we already earn 21:55:39 -!- ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-239-96.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:41 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:55:41 RenJuan [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:45 Anyone knows of a graphic where one can see all the hirarchy of types from t down to the lowest? the hypersecs don't seem to offer this 21:55:53 -!- RenJuan [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:13 btw, did anybody see the newest find definition on dwim.hu? 21:57:14 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:26 francogrex: (remove #\return (read-line ...)) 21:57:45 (defun add1 (x) (1+ x)) 21:57:45 21:57:54 it still has some problems when expanding within the table... 21:57:57 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:58:03 ehh wrong window sorry 21:58:05 (not that i'm saying it's good -- but less pain than read-char...) 21:58:14 off to bed --> 21:58:15 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:58:18 nikodemus: hey cool 21:59:14 francogrex: if you want to remove trailing newlines, try string-trim (or string-right-trim) 22:00:24 sp0_of [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 22:00:40 antifuchs: maybe I can place a code in the sbcl init that when I use read-line it is replaced by its temporary "adjusted version" 22:01:05 I don't think that's a good idea. 22:01:09 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:01:26 you probably could do it, but it would blow up in places you don't expect 22:01:32 why not; it's temporary until they fix tghe bug in sbcl 22:01:40 ah ok 22:04:02 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:15 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:05:26 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:08:39 rahul, where's that structured editor? 22:09:12 francogrex, what's your problem -- just define a portability layer over read-line. 22:09:12 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:09:43 -!- mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [] 22:11:58 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-249.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:12:17 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:12:33 deepfire: hmm; I never did that 22:12:49 I thought we'd need to go fix the asm code in sbcl 22:13:33 sbcl 22:14:33 francogrex, just pretend cl:read-line is non-portable and (defun real-read-line (stream &optional eof-errorp eof-value) #-sbcl (read-line stream eof-errorp eof-value) #+sbcl (remove #\Newline (read-line stream eof-errorp eof-value))) 22:14:43 leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:15:17 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:21 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-243-232.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:22 *Shamwow* would be thankful to learn how to unbind a generic function and its methods in slime 22:15:32 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:37 Shamwow, fmakunbound 22:15:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-249.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:15:58 deepfire: but then what about (read-line) as such 22:16:04 francogrex, if you have an endless source of free time, sure go fix the asm code in sbcl, otoh 22:16:07 deepfire: thank you 22:16:21 usually no arguments are needed all in &optional all 4 22:16:50 I have no time to fix the asm and no energy either :( 22:18:34 clhs lambda 22:18:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 22:19:59 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:21:17 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:39 deepfire: but it works like you suggested 22:23:08 just it's remove #\Return instead of newline 22:24:51 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:25:09 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:25:32 francogrx, nikodemus suggested it, btw 22:25:47 sorry, francogrex 22:25:56 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:09 yes i kbnow; he's takuing care of sbcl now right? 22:26:59 elopezc [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 22:27:12 20:23 < Xach> bulibuta: no need to mangle names of instances in defmethod argument lists. 22:27:19 could you explain that a bit more please 22:27:36 how would you replace: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((brd board) &key) 22:28:25 -!- ericklc [n=ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:42 (board board) 22:29:37 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:12 stassats: so something like (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((board board) &key) should be okay 22:30:29 right 22:30:44 I have a lot to learn, this is great 22:30:58 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:32:13 deepfire: but I would like to shadow read-line itself with an automatic package unlock 22:32:25 stassats: if I do that I get: FIND-CLASS: BOARD does not name a class 22:32:42 but the file begins with (defclass board...) 22:32:52 you didn't evaluate it 22:32:55 because I might use code with read-line from stream already in it and forget replaceing wit with real-read-line 22:33:01 (in the right package, and all) 22:35:14 peddie [n=peddie@TEP.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:37:59 I'm sorry but I don't understand, I think I still have a lot to read-up on 22:38:27 I just want a superclass and a subclass that sets a member of the superclass upon init 22:39:10 ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has joined #lisp 22:39:15 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 22:39:47 -!- ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has left #lisp 22:39:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:52 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:40:02 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:40:36 change from brd to board didn't cause that error 22:40:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:08 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@189.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:41:09 you either haven't loaded that file, or you have symbols from different packages 22:41:50 I compiled the whole file and now I get compiler notes 22:41:59 I'll just restart everything 22:42:15 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-200-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:42:50 -!- acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has quit ["leaving"] 22:42:53 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 22:42:54 yeap... now I get no compiler notes 22:43:05 but restarting everytime I change something seems retarded to me. 22:43:22 sg [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-rraiygftgvazmeaj] has joined #lisp 22:43:24 right, don't restart 22:43:37 hi 22:44:45 stassats: perhaps slime-restart-inferior-lisp :-) 22:45:13 no, you don't need to restart it 22:45:23 if you understand what's going on 22:46:25 what is the note yo're seeing? 22:46:41 redefinition? if you load from a file, it won't say that 22:46:42 I closed emacs and restarted 22:46:50 so I lost the notes 22:47:33 damn you, define-presentation-to-command-translator! 22:47:53 but that :size member is still not set from the subclass 22:47:58 I'm so lost 22:48:26 and this only started happening since I added those package support 22:48:38 maybe you have two different sizes 22:48:46 import the symbol from one into the other 22:49:09 how do I export something defined in a class? 22:49:16 for the other package to import 22:49:19 you don't export definitions 22:49:20 hmm.. 22:49:21 you export names 22:49:31 the definitoins all come with the name itself 22:49:35 yes, but the name only makes sense inside the class 22:49:49 (:export :size) seems wrong to me 22:49:53 it's one name whether you're using it in referene to the class or not 22:50:00 okay 22:50:03 it's probably the size that names the slot 22:50:18 (size :initarg :size) 22:50:22 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:24 the FIRST size there is what names the slot 22:50:51 you need to be using the same symbol in the subclass to be overriding the superclass's options for that slot 22:51:27 you can also use :default-initargs 22:51:34 sure 22:51:48 and that will use the initarg, which you have as a keyword 22:51:59 if you only want to override an initform 22:52:02 so you'll always be referring to the symbol in the keyword package in that case 22:52:58 stassats: I only want to override an initform, yes 22:53:10 and I do use (size :initarg :size) in the superclass 22:53:17 and (size :initform 3) in the subclass 22:53:21 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 22:53:27 Greetings. 22:53:29 and adding size to export worked 22:53:35 but that looks very ugly to me 22:53:43 is that the proper way? 22:54:41 what ugly about it? 22:54:54 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has quit [] 22:55:05 exporting a class member 22:55:16 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:16 what if I want another class that has a size member in that package? 22:55:18 a class member? 22:55:22 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:37 I don't know how you call them in lisp, sorry. 22:55:48 well, you are exporting a symbol 22:56:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 22:56:21 to me something in (defclass foo (size :initarg :size :initform (error "must supply size"))) means a member 22:56:21 it doesn't care about being a name of a slot, or whatever 22:56:24 okay 22:56:29 slot, yes 22:56:53 :TRANSLATOR-FUNCTION #'(LAMBDA (#:OBJECT-ARG2220 &KEY SLOT &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS) 22:56:56 W T F 22:57:06 so if I want another slot in another class in the same package with the same name, what do I do? 22:57:11 I want to access the object arg! 22:57:18 I never noticed, until today, that 234. is an integer in common lisp. It is a float in C and Fortran. 22:57:26 why is it putting my parameter as an &key?!? 22:57:51 bulibuta: just refer to the same symbol 22:58:02 bulibuta: then they are the same slot, conceptually 22:58:03 tmh: . means base 10 22:58:28 rahul: I think I understand, guess I'll see when I hit that point in time :-) 22:58:41 tmh: that's a throwback to when default base was 8 22:58:53 you did 234. to indicate you wanted base 10 and not base 8 22:58:57 bulibuta: sure 22:59:16 stassats, rahul: Are there any other suffix base indicators? 22:59:26 only prefix 22:59:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:59 bulibuta: you might want to look at some of my code. a good place to start would be the rjain-utils project in cvs on common-lisp.net and currently I'm working on formulate. src/formulator.lisp is written in pretty good OO style, I think 23:00:23 rahul: but you are biased 23:00:37 Hmm, I'm trying to improve my parse-float function and have sunk into the tar-pit of "what is a floating point literal?" 23:01:01 1.25 23:01:37 rahul: thanks 23:01:40 Heh, that is *one* acceptable format. 23:01:45 tmh ieee-floats does a pretty good job with floats, though not sure what you mean by parse-float 23:01:45 stassats: it worked with exporting. thanks a lot 23:02:04 Guthur: Accurately read from text. 23:02:05 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-151-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:29 ah, ok 23:02:42 Guthur: Equivalent to the LispWorks parse-float 23:02:45 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:03:03 bulibuta: as i said before, you could have (defclass foo () ((foo :initarg :size :initform 10))) (defclass bar (foo) (:default-initargs :size 42)) 23:03:13 I've spent the past half hour reading various EBNF-like definitions of floating point literals. 23:03:27 clhs parse-number? 23:03:28 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for parse-number?. 23:03:31 oh 23:03:35 minion: parse-number 23:03:36 parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 23:04:05 parse-number does not meet my requirements. 23:04:26 you can convince it to meet them 23:05:41 when sbcl reports "N lambdas Converted" on a time call, what does that mean, what were the lambdas converted from/to? 23:05:51 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-210-109.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:03 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-210-109.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:06:27 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-210-109.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:08 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:32 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:49 (time (coerce '(lambda (f) (+ f f)) 'function)) says about 3 lambdas 23:09:32 (time (compile nil '(lambda (f) (+ f f)))) only about 1 23:09:40 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:09:50 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:10:02 well that clears things right up ;) 23:10:06 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 23:11:03 i wonder why there's a difference 23:11:15 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 23:11:23 stassats: I'll try that later, thanks. 23:11:24 Does it have something to do with the interpreter? 23:11:27 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:11:44 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:11:44 nyef: oh, it says also 1 form interpreted 23:11:49 in case of coerce 23:11:58 is it converting uncompiled functions to compiled? is that what that metric is reporting? 23:12:09 Bah, I'm going to implement the common lisp rules for a floating point literal and if I need something else to read to a float, I'll write a specific rule for it. I'm thinking about this too much. 23:12:37 My requirements are to use meta-sexp from now on for reading text files. 23:12:46 minion: meta-sexp 23:12:47 meta-sexp: meta-sexp is a META parser generator using LL(1) grammars with s-expressions. http://www.cliki.net/meta-sexp 23:14:51 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A86F8.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:16:55 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:17:51 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-5-59.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 23:18:22 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:06 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:21:17 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:21:54 ziga`` [n=user@89.142.96.116] has joined #lisp 23:23:06 debugger invoked on a SYMBOL-PACKAGE-LOCKED-ERROR. How to stop those? 23:23:12 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:23:18 tmh: especially since the primary example of META is a CL FP literal reader :) 23:23:24 Is there like a muffle? 23:23:26 francogrex: Either don't violate package locks or disable the package locks. 23:23:32 francogrex: don't stomp on predefined symbols 23:23:40 you're asking for trouble 23:23:40 shadow 'em 23:23:45 Perhaps have a look for something like without-package-locks or with-package-locks-disabled, etc. 23:23:47 or choose a different name 23:24:13 But, really, you should have a very good reason to want to redefine a symbol in a locked package. 23:24:17 rahul: I only saw and integer literal reader. 23:24:23 *an* 23:24:24 (sb-ext:disable-package-locks symbol*) and this? 23:24:57 nyef: I'm not stomping really, just tweaking 23:25:12 (sb-ext:without-package-locks code) 23:25:25 its the function that deepfire defined to me 23:25:47 your tweaking may end with daemons flying through your nose 23:25:49 $[@(digit fd) 23:25:49 !(setq x nil nf (1+ nf) f (+ (* f 10) (ctoi fd)))]] ; fract. digits. 23:26:13 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D109.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:26:27 francogrex: the compiler is allowed to randomly choose to respect your modifications or not 23:26:56 rahul: Oh, you mean the META page. 23:27:01 yeah 23:27:25 -!- elopezc [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:40 ok, I'm out 23:28:52 ok 23:29:34 paw` [n=user@78-69-84-129-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:46 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 23:32:25 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-4-155.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:33:27 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:48 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.147.12] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:40 minion: memo for gigamonkey: #c@w when you are back? 23:35:41 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 23:36:15 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:57 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:38:02 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.60.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:08 asdf doesn't come bundled with clisp? 23:38:40 didn't seem to 23:38:47 or is it that I'm just using it wrong, am I supposed to load it? 23:38:48 okay 23:38:53 I'll just get the file then 23:39:10 is clisp not recommanded among the common lisp community? 23:39:28 sbcl seems to get most of the references 23:39:29 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 23:40:39 i don't like clisp, personally 23:40:49 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:41:40 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:43 I have no idea how to evaluate something like that at this point 23:42:04 its the only common lisp implementation I have available on my OS. I could import another if it really mattered 23:42:19 and if it wasn't linux-centric 23:42:29 sbcl and ccl are better supported by slime, for example 23:43:42 I read that, its a good argument 23:43:47 I guess.. 23:43:58 if you use slime 23:44:09 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.33.54] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:44:58 bulibuta: what OS? 23:44:58 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 23:45:29 because the only ones I know that only have clisp ported to them are either uber-expensive or old 23:45:40 sctb [n=sctb@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:42 p_l: OpenBSD 23:46:17 bulibuta: hmmm... I know that you could try ECL, but it has its own share of problems 23:46:24 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.140.144] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:30 sbcl works on openbsd 23:46:39 *p_l* wonders how much is needed to get SBCL working on OpenBSD (assuming no insane settings on memory scrambling) 23:46:43 TR2N [i=email@89-180-204-132.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 23:46:52 p_l, stassats: it works on i386 only 23:47:04 bulibuta: and you have? 23:48:01 amd64, sgi 23:48:23 my gf's laptop and my router is an i386. but I can't use those for obvious reasons 23:48:28 bulibuta: you should be still able to run 32bit SBCL, though you'll need 32bit libraries 23:48:45 maybe I'll try to port it to amd64 as well 23:48:47 dunno why amd64 SBCL doesn't work on OpenBSD, haven't tested 23:49:15 from the makefile it looks linux-centric indeed, needing /proc and stuff 23:49:25 it shouldn't take much to port, since compiler etc. is rather well maintained on amd64... so it's just patching parts to fit 23:49:50 it will be an adventure I guess. but I'm already learning emacs for lisp, don't know if I'll have time for that as well. 23:50:13 bulibuta: I'm still wondering why not *BSDs adopted /proc (and I mean only for processes, not for the unholy mess of driver-controlled files) 23:50:47 *not all 23:50:50 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 23:51:04 <_3b> check sbcl-devel mailing list, seem to remember patches or something for that (assuming it doesn't build from source already) 23:51:28 p_l: I don't see the use of /proc 23:52:01 if you take out the drivers and sysctl magic out of it, it just remains a couple of PIDs 23:52:12 I have pgrep and pkill for that 23:52:32 but I don't work on that part of the OS so I might be wrong 23:53:04 you can still mount procfs and emulate something similar for situations like sbcl 23:53:51 just do # mkdir /proc && mount -t procfs proc /proc 23:54:32 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 23:55:00 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.183] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 23:56:29 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:56:36 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-210-109.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:56:38 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:56:46 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 23:57:12 kidd [n=kidd@216.Red-88-16-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:31 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:59:32 bulibuta: the original /proc was just that - information about processes. The only thing that was process-related and wasn't put there was process creation