00:00:04 oh, right 00:00:12 rahul: Anyway, I appreciate all your help. Thanks :) 00:00:12 -!- fawxtin`` [n=user@150.162.165.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:00:22 fawxtin`` [n=user@150.162.165.254] has joined #lisp 00:00:41 Retardedpope: until you stop trial and error learning, it will be the last help I give 00:01:58 can you do research without trial and error? 00:02:12 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 00:02:41 stassats`, well he does it at somebody else's expense 00:03:00 I thought trial and error was a good and proven method... 00:03:26 well, educated trial, not just blind poking 00:04:03 IMO whether trying-stuff is a good way to learn something depends on whether, for the given something, you're able to do it without generating lots of questions yoiu can't answer yourself with further experiment or reference material 00:04:18 i.e. poking around is fine and good insofar as one can do it by oneself 00:04:34 clim presentation-type-of 00:04:34 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-3.html#_1183 00:04:38 lots of the great discoveries were made by trial and error 00:04:45 but if it just results in '...er, how do I make this work' then you're not making good progress and would be better off with more documentation 00:04:48 stassats`: he's not doing research 00:04:59 stassats`: he's trying to learn something that's man-made... 00:05:18 i think it was faraday who stuck pins in the sides of eyes during his study of optics, just to see what it did 00:05:28 Retardedpope: trial and error is the source of the joke behind gigamonkeys' name 00:05:33 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:05:34 eyes/ his eyes 00:07:39 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:08:11 you could even argue its quite close to traditional empirical experimentation 00:08:51 LiamH: It's weird, when I look at the diff, I don't see where the error comes from; everything should remain the same if (= stride 1) 00:09:13 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:09:33 LiamH: You should roll back (or whatever it's called) to a25477a545 until I have fixed this. 00:09:44 LiamH: sorry about this.... :( 00:10:09 *Sikander* reminds himself to always test for sizes LARGER than 5... 00:10:14 rahul: Anyway, I've been learning a lot from this. I mean I'm not just learning lisp, I'm learning about social interaction too. 00:10:22 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10:41 Sikander: Ok, if I make any commits I will branch off of HEAD^ 00:10:43 Retardedpope: I hope you've learned not to try the patience of others again 00:10:45 retardedpope, social interaction?, on irc? 00:11:03 now you are just being silly, hehe 00:11:40 LiamH: Yeah, I'm _really_ sorry about this... 00:12:11 Guthur: :) 00:12:13 Sikander: No worries, it's not technically a regression since we don't have any tests for FFT yet. 00:12:37 LiamH: The weird thing is that DFT's work fine, it's only the normal FFTs that don't work any more. 00:12:38 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:39 Sikander: I looked at your code, and as you say, it looks innocent enough. 00:12:43 :( 00:13:03 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 00:13:34 rahul: I'm sorry if I've offended you or anything. I had no bad intensions. 00:13:39 Sikander: That's true, so at least stride is correct there. 00:14:04 LiamH: I _really_ don't get it. For stride=1 it should be identical to a25477a545 00:14:37 Did you clear fasls and try? I didn't. Maybe we missed a dependency? 00:16:06 Retardedpope: you didn't offend me, you've just spent all your "credits" with me. 00:16:31 Hmmm... 00:17:28 Interestingly git checkout a25477a545 forward.lisp also gives crap results. It might be the example that I changed in a wrong way. One sec 00:18:56 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:21 rahul: How do I reverse that? 00:19:49 rahul: I didn't mean to get bad credit.... 00:19:50 write many useful programs and libraries in CL 00:21:08 -!- flatline [n=flatline@z166195.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:09 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-228-61.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 00:21:37 Retardedpope: no bad credit. you just need to earn credit back by not asking questions that indicate that you are not learning anything. 00:22:04 bonus credit for writing useful programs and libs in CL :) 00:22:36 rahul: got it :) 00:22:47 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 00:24:17 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:04 LiamH: Are you sure a25477a545 was still ok? I checked out forward.lisp, discrete.lisp, example.lisp and unpack.lisp from that one, and still get crappy answers. 00:25:16 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:46 Sikander: Yes, it worked for me. You didn't change example.lisp in 3c6a2d2ea3 you know. 00:25:59 LiamH: Oh, right. 00:26:09 LiamH: But I did in a local commit :) 00:26:31 LiamH: In any case, those four files are the only ones that matter for the fft example. 00:26:55 LiamH: And still crap results 00:27:13 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 00:28:07 Tordek [n=tordek@host81.190-226-114.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:28:55 I did a clean fasl checkout of 3c6a and I got the error. 00:29:44 And I just did a clean-fasl checkout of a254 an I also get the same error! 00:29:52 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:02 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:20 Sikander: apparently, we've built a time machine that can change the past! 00:31:41 LiamH: I get the same. There's a problem somewhere. I'm interested to know how you got the correct results. 00:31:56 I ran before I pulled your latest commit. 00:32:15 -!- ergodicsum [n=ergudics@70.158.116.43] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:23 try a fresh checkout 00:32:27 in a new directory 00:32:36 rahul: Good idea 00:32:46 your clean may not be cleaning up _everything_ 00:32:47 If that works, it would be both great and crazy! 00:33:00 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:33:10 rm -rf ~/.fasls isn't cleaning everything? 00:33:19 weird 00:33:48 or do you mean git checkout a254? 00:33:49 Sikander: I didn't do that, I did rm -rf * (I use asdf-binary-locations and put my fasls elsewhere). 00:34:25 Well we had a254 working, so yes, that one. 00:35:47 LiamH: sorry, I was asking if rahul meant that git checkout a254 doesn't "clean up _everything_" 00:36:21 I don't mean anything specific 00:36:51 I mean that DWIM is not a reality 00:38:46 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:46 Well guess what, fresh dir, checkout a254, still crap. So it must be the error is earlier, and my previous success was riding on an old fasl somewhere. 00:39:14 ergodicsum [n=ergudics@cpe-075-182-116-231.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:32 LiamH: Yeah, weird. 00:40:01 LiamH: Hmm... I really hate to do this... But it's already past 1.30am and I have a long day tomorrow... 00:40:17 carbocalm [n=user@69-165-153-239.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:39 -!- carbocalm [n=user@69-165-153-239.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:40:45 Sikander: Yeah, I got to go home now. I'll look at it tonight. 00:41:03 LiamH: Let me know. I'll have a look again tomorrow evening. 00:41:16 If I come up with anything, I'll leave a memo with minion. 00:41:21 Thanks 00:41:28 Good night. 00:41:36 And I'm glad that I stumbled upon it, AND didn't (directly) cause it! 00:41:40 Goodnight! 00:41:45 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:47 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to sleep..."] 00:43:44 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:45:00 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:45:32 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 00:46:02 -!- skeptomai [n=nnnnnnnn@71.227.156.96] has quit ["Getting off stoned server - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 00:46:23 skeptomai [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:05 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:50:32 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.200.207] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:50:50 why does mcclim not present the parts of a complex number sensitively? 00:51:04 eh, I can see how it will make clicking a bit difficult 00:54:11 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:55:32 Shamwow pasted "Deep length of lists" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90145 00:56:07 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BB9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:56:09 *Shamwow* thought that maybe someone looking for that algorithm earlier would see it... 00:56:21 reprore_ [n=reprore@mail.trn.dis.titech.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 00:56:22 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:14 *Shamwow* meant it for Retardedpope 00:59:23 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:59:28 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 00:59:51 you do realize that you're just doing his homework for him 01:00:02 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-124.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00:20 rahul: oh :) 01:00:24 so i was reading an article that said using conditions instead of return values for errors was a good idea 01:01:02 rahul: well, no, that didn't cross my mind. I had the same question a few weeks ago and wrote it down. 01:01:04 ...you need an article to tell you that? >_> 01:01:06 Demosthenes: yes, because a "bad" return value needs to be checked for EVERY time you call ANY function 01:01:23 rahul: i got how awkward it is to always check return codes. i agree! 01:01:33 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:01:36 Demosthenes: related symptom "error: Success" coming out of unix programs 01:01:44 rahul: so i'm looking for well written examples 01:01:46 Shamwow: heh 01:01:50 Demosthenes: of what? 01:02:00 i have some code i think would benefit from using conditions 01:02:06 Demosthenes: so signal conditions 01:02:43 Demosthenes: and handle them at a level that's broad enough that you don't need to define the behavior 10000 times throuhout your application 01:02:51 i could jump in with two feet, or step back and look at how others have done it properly... 01:02:59 Demosthenes: look at how the REPL works 01:03:12 which is why i asked if anyone knew an example or existing open codebase that was a good example to emulate 01:03:19 Demosthenes: the Lisp language itself has it done properly :) 01:03:45 pitman also has a good paper on the topic 01:04:04 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 01:04:10 i think thats the one i'm reading in a bad purple text color ;] 01:04:17 purple and green. ;] 01:04:58 Shamwow: Thank you. I already wrote one myself, but this looks funkyer. 01:05:33 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@mail.trn.dis.titech.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:05:39 heh 01:06:07 Retardedpope: it's the recursion version 01:06:20 I still like the sublis-if version 01:06:39 all of 2 lines 01:06:54 with liberal line breaking 01:06:56 -!- GiancarloBatista [n=nobody@Wabc8.w.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:07:07 rahul: I haven't seen it 01:07:30 rahul: is sublis-if a macro of the same size ;-) ? 01:07:36 heh 01:07:46 Shamwow: it's a standard CL function of the same size :) 01:08:01 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:08:18 clhs sublis-if 01:08:19 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for sublis-if. 01:08:34 (let ((count 0)) (sublis-if nil (lambda (x) (unless x (incf count)) tree)) 01:08:39 clhs sublis 01:08:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sublis.htm 01:08:58 erm 01:09:09 subst-if, rather 01:10:02 (let ((count 0)) (subst-if nil (lambda (x) (unless x (incf count)) tree) count) 01:10:13 when/unless? 01:10:24 put whatever condition in there to count whatever it is you want to count 01:11:29 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-92937.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:29:38 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:38 01:29:38 -!- names: ccl-logbot beach` Adamant ace4016 skeptomai konr sykopomp Vonunov ergodicsum Raptelan Tordek eldragon rstandy crink fawxtin`` plutonas thermal_ slackjaw dreish seangrove nvoorhies rajesh dralston TR2N attila_lendvai quidnunc kpreid z0d koollman ia salva ruediger_ ltriant bgs100 dalkvist_ dmiles kejsaren_ hypno redline6561 colin__ s0ber gz` marioxcc postamar gz lisppaste Shamwow ntd Krystof fihi09 eno__ rread legumbre mattrepl pfeyz REPLeffect_ 01:29:38 -!- names: mrsolo saikatc Edward__ fe[nl]ix Guest28110 Guest2832 ironChicken hdurer__ hdurer_ wgl_ slather _3b ASau dcrawford overdrive srcerer Fufie rahul antoszka spec[away] GrayGnome ikki kefka` abeaumont metasyntax weirdo rrice benny ignas kuwabara hugod CrazyEddy daniel Adlai stepnem ryepup1 H4ns sellout luis` hoeq nipra poet Hun cmm rlarson82 Ralith majhool madnificent Retardedpope harag stoop lpolzer rullie Modius wlr koning_robot WhiteFlam yacin 01:29:38 -!- names: housel Taggnostr Bucciarati highb thijso mornfall pok EinarDogfin jyujin arbscht aking p8m qsun fatalnix1995_ schme tsuru` tessier joga ve stassats` Xach jsnell holycow Elench Spaghettini tmh Computer drewc nowhereman mgr rares yahooooo moesenle xinming_ Dodek Lycurgus nasloc__ KatrinaTheLamia billstclair billitch spacebat ecraven ianmcorvidae dek5 lnostdal huangjs Khisanth robewald bfein sjbach fnordus metasyntax` nimred |coyoes| Summermute66 01:29:38 -!- names: Aisling Buganini bakkdoor BrianRice rootzlevel araujo whoppix mtd erg boyscared cataska r0bby j0ni ``Erik l_a_m myrkraverk mncaudill Orest^bnc xristos pkhuong gonzojive deepfire sytse p_l nullman wgl manituuuu hohum Borbus Xof Draggor StanleyD nyef maskd lharc rey_ tvaalen Zhivago tarbo_ minion ski phadthai Fade mogunus blitz_ smithzv aja Axioplase_ erk guaqua qebab anekos pragma_ ineiros trittweiler Pepe_ johs luis tltstc mle dfox joast zeroish 01:29:38 -!- names: lukjad007 spiaggia rtoym Demosthenes alexbobp djinni` Patzy nareshov michaelw zbigniew vcgomes jrockway metric retupmoca Adrinael mfo fgtech emma blast_hardcheese dostoyev1ky kleppari C-o-r-E Madsy hicx174 mathrick kloeri chii egn rotty scode nicktastique AntiSpamMeta lichtblau frontiers codemonkeyx antifuchs eihrul cods piso rapacity rbancroft eibmozoib rlonstein froydnj acieroid clog_ mikezor qidush_ bohanlon setheus_ prip _3b` vsync frodef 01:29:38 -!- names: pixel5 felipe specbot rsynnott bdowning krappie tic PissedNumlock ramus` herbieB Guest67387 guenthr DrForr foom esden cpt_nemo 01:29:58 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:29:58 interesting... I'm moving around parentheses and I'm still getting 0 01:30:36 oh god, that's really "blind poking" 01:30:39 Knight walked into a computer lab 01:30:49 An AI student was writing a program 01:30:53 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:30:56 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 01:30:57 Knight asked him what the program was 01:31:27 The student said, "I'm randomizing the connections in a neural network for a tic-tac-toe program." 01:31:38 oh wait wrong one 01:31:40 stassats`: I guess it is... 01:31:47 um, the student was turning the computer on and off 01:31:58 Knight asked the student what he was doing... 01:31:59 well, giving a link to the koan would be better than typing it line by line 01:32:17 stassats`: hey, that's how I gave Retardedpope the broken code he's trying to fix :P 01:32:37 The student said he was rebooting the computer to fix it 01:33:15 Knight said "Rebooting the computer without understanding will not fix the problem" Knight rebooted the computer, and it was fixed. 01:33:34 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:06 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:29 benny` [n=benny@i577A85C1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 01:36:07 I just moved ccl-logbot to a new machine. If problems with the logs on ccl.clozure.com arise, please let me (rme@clozure.com) know. 01:36:15 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 01:36:40 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A089E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:52 rahul: subst-if seams to take three arguments and your giving it three arguments... 01:37:08 and what are the 3 args supposed to be? 01:37:28 new predicate tree 01:37:46 and what are the 3 args you're passing? 01:37:49 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:50 &key means it's optional, right? 01:38:16 right 01:38:39 and you're incorrect that I was passing 3 args. you are, but I wasn't 01:38:55 rme: and if the problems are serious, now we know where you live! 01:39:28 (let ((count 0)) (subst-if nil (lambda (x) (unless x (incf count))) tree) count) gave me 4 01:40:18 I guess you can assume it works in all situations 01:40:50 I was expecting 9 01:40:53 or are you going to try to understand the code and see if it actually works like what _you_ want? 01:40:59 heh 01:41:05 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:07 *stassats`* put his label on the map on the former tsars' residence, for security reasons 01:43:14 rahul: I already have a function that does what I want and I wrote it myself, so I understand it... 01:43:43 Retardedpope: well, the problem is pretty simple 01:44:04 but you'd have to understand what you want to count to get it to work :) 01:44:17 rahul: The only function I've used of the above is let... 01:44:44 ... LET is not a function, by the way... 01:44:46 So I'd have to read the documentation for all the rest of them in order to understand it 01:44:57 teh horrorz. 01:45:07 rahul: Oh, what is it then? 01:45:18 special operator 01:45:19 Retardedpope: it's a special form 01:45:23 well yeah 01:45:40 rahul: How do I tell the difference? 01:45:46 bonus points: guess why? 01:45:49 Retardedpope: you can look at the documentation, for one 01:46:21 Retardedpope: you can also think about the evaluation rules of functions and see if it fits into those or not 01:46:21 rahul: Is there any practical difference between operators and functions? 01:46:55 *Shamwow* has a code snippet he'd love for other's to look at to find the problem. test-file is a file with hundreds of numbers each separated with whitespace. 01:47:00 Retardedpope: similar to the difference between space shuttles and humans 01:47:00 Shamwow pasted "Problem with stream parsing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90150 01:47:51 recursive functions, yuck 01:47:53 Shamwow: (loop repeat n collect (read ...))? 01:48:04 rahul: hmm, so your saying that I wouldn't know if I was talking to a space shuttle or a human... :P 01:48:37 rahul: that would work, sure, but the problem is that the reader is complaining that my stream is "not of type STRING" 01:48:42 Retardedpope: on the internet no one knows you are a space shuttle 01:48:59 stassats`: unless they notice latency distribution 01:49:00 stassats`: true 01:49:08 in space nobody can hear you shuttle on the internet 01:49:18 Shamwow: uh, do you mean your string is not of type stream? 01:49:23 or that you are using IP/Space gateway 01:49:50 stassats`: isn't recursive functions what lisp is all about? 01:49:53 rahul: I'm feeding foo into the first function - foo is a stream, the error is that it's "not of type STRING" 01:49:55 using quantum entanglement to reduce latency, no less 01:49:56 (yes, there's a protocol for internet in space, I found it few days ago) 01:50:00 Retardedpope: NO NO NO NO NO 01:50:01 Retardedpope: absolutely not 01:50:11 Retardedpope: lisp was just the first language that ALLOWED recursive functions 01:50:30 Shamwow: check your source of grab-n-from-stream 01:50:30 rahul: so that's why it's so common? 01:50:34 that doesn't mean you use them to spite your space shuttle 01:50:36 I'm just used to thinking about things in recursion when doing lists... 01:50:41 Retardedpope: what is so common? 01:50:41 that, and scheme made TCO popular in mind of people 01:50:49 Shamwow: it has a call to GRAB-N-FROM-STRING, not a recursive call to GRAB-N-FROM-STREAM. 01:50:55 rahul: recursive functions... 01:50:56 Shamwow: you should think in terms of list transformation operations 01:51:02 Retardedpope: they're common where? 01:51:20 rahul: in lisp... or that's my impression 01:51:31 Retardedpope: very little lisp code uses recursion 01:51:42 Xach: hah! I knew someone would spot my error, thanks 01:51:43 Retardedpope: and lisp compilers are not friendly to recursive code 01:52:11 Shamwow: I don't think that's a very good approach, though. 01:52:14 Shamwow: if you didn't write it recursively, the signal to noise ratio in the code would be better and it would be easier to spot the error :) 01:52:16 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:28 rahul: I thought recursion wsa the prefered way of doing things in lisp... 01:52:37 Xach: what would the better way be? 01:52:39 Shamwow: also, don't use eq to compare something to 0. In that specific case, you can use ZEROP, and for numbers in general you can use eql or =. 01:52:44 Retardedpope: you thought wrong 01:52:48 Shamwow: (loop repeat ... collect ...) 01:52:53 rahul: got the impression that loop was like a hack.... 01:52:56 rahul, really? I get the impression that "serious" Lisp compilers do TCO, although serious CL hackers use high-order functions or iteration constructs 01:52:59 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:52:59 Retardedpope: I thought Obama was a Socialist Fascist 01:53:00 rahul: probably true, but the recursive one is easier for me to think of... 01:53:12 Retardedpope: it's part of the language... 01:53:19 Xach: danke 01:53:21 rahul: he isn't? ;) 01:53:32 Shamwow: start thinking of lists as lists, and not as cons cells, then 01:53:55 sadly, cl doesn't help here 01:53:59 rahul: too abstract :) 01:54:07 Shamwow: only when the built-in sequence operations don't cut it do you need to lower yourself down to the level of cons cells 01:54:22 Obama is Right Winger with left cover 01:54:38 rahul: I'm not sure americans would notice socialistic fascism if it bit them in their ass... lets put politics out :P 01:55:00 rahul: So if I would loop in C I should loop in lisp and not try to go for the recursive solution? 01:55:13 Adlai: serious compilers CAN do TCO, but it's avoided, due to how it messes up debugging 01:55:14 Retardedpope: actually, it's more like "your choice" 01:55:29 Retardedpope: even better would be to sequence transform 01:55:34 proof of OIARWLC: the anti-war movement is completely neutralized 01:55:43 rahul: sbcl avoids it only with debug 3 01:55:51 Retardedpope: do stuff like subst or mapcar or remove 01:56:01 stassats`: my point exactly 01:56:10 well, but default is 1 01:56:17 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 01:56:19 stassats`: defaults are for losers 01:56:34 ok 01:56:39 (well, and newbies, but newbies are losers who haven't figured out how to be winners just yet) 01:57:02 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-181-184.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:58:20 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:27 Shamwow pasted "Updated lists-from-streams" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90151 01:58:41 I suppose it is a bit cleaner... and idiomatic 01:58:51 alright, gotta run. Thanks for the help again, all! 01:59:00 Shamwow: STR is an awful name. 01:59:18 maybe when (read ...) collect it ? 01:59:20 Shamwow: call it STREAM or STRING or STRIPE or whatever the actual word is. 01:59:44 straße 01:59:46 `maybe' isn't part of the loop 02:00:22 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 02:00:29 stassats`: yeah, lisp is not quantum-aware 02:01:18 although there is a package called screamer that does that... 02:01:19 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 02:02:09 rahul: I was just thinking. Isn't TDD trial and error programming? 02:03:08 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:03:28 Retardedpope: not at all 02:03:36 Retardedpope: it's error-detecting programming 02:03:46 rahul: Ok, I see. 02:03:55 rahul: sounds like trial-and-error to me. 02:03:55 rahul: do you use TDD? 02:03:57 you don't randomly type shit until it happens to pass the 3 tests you thought of 02:04:07 Retardedpope: if it makes sense 02:04:18 *sykopomp* prefers TATFT 02:04:21 and most of the time, it does 02:04:29 rahul: Are there any TDD tools for lisp? 02:04:42 Retardedpope: there's the REPL for one 02:04:49 and there are dozens of test frameworks 02:04:59 RT being an early one, from the 80s or so 02:05:54 the key to TDD is being able to identify all of the corner cases that exist 02:06:16 also, sbcl and ccl have code coverage modules 02:07:52 Why aren't the major IDEs supporting lisp? 02:07:55 -!- benny` is now known as benny 02:08:22 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-126-240.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:36 I mean lisp has been around for a long time 02:08:51 slime supports lisp 02:09:06 why doesn't x86 support ppc? 02:09:10 ppc's been around a long time. 02:09:31 Ralith: your question doesn't not compute 02:09:38 not to mention that x86 is older 02:09:39 p_l: that's the point :P 02:09:49 Retardedpope, there's an Eclipse plugin for lisp 02:09:58 ah, now I see the question that started it :) 02:10:38 but srsly, I think there's only one architecture still in use that is older than x86... 02:10:47 s390? 02:11:04 stassats: I think so 02:11:05 MIX 02:11:21 Adlai: nope, MIX was in 70's, right? 02:11:21 or 360, rather 02:11:22 x86 does support ppc 02:11:34 well, ppc supports x86 better 02:11:39 ... wat 02:11:45 Btw, what applications am I using that are written in lisp? 02:11:52 someone explain that logic 02:11:52 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-35.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 02:11:52 Retardedpope: orbitz 02:12:00 Univese 02:12:04 Universe 02:12:16 Retardedpope: and any other airfare search 02:12:20 stassats: xkcd says it was actually done in perl. 02:12:30 antoszka: it was glued together in perl 02:12:37 Whatever. 02:12:59 ok, i've missed something. log5 uses alot of macros to establish categories, i wanted to wrap those calls in a macro to facilitate defining some standard ones. 02:13:07 Retardedpope: many of the chips in your computer were tested using lisp 02:13:39 Retardedpope: look at the success stories on the Franz site for more 02:13:48 rahul: any desktop apps? 02:14:01 Retardedpope: sure 02:14:02 -!- kefka` [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:14:09 Retardedpope: but they're usually not mass-market apps 02:14:32 maxima is popular 02:14:41 they're for specific industries, like stock trading apps or project planning apps 02:14:57 or educational apps 02:15:08 except for MS Bob :P 02:16:17 It seems to me like lisp is only used by the most initiated hackers... 02:16:26 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:16:36 like regular programmers use java or something 02:17:21 mostly right, you forgot the secret handshakes 02:17:39 i don't consider myself initiated or non-regular 02:17:47 Retardedpope: geneticists use lisp 02:17:54 reminds me of the Knights of the Lambda Calculus... 02:18:01 at least the ones at NYU 02:18:17 oh, and wherever that biolingua guy works 02:18:17 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:18:40 renamed biobike 02:18:43 ; note: doing float to pointer coercion (cost 13) to "" 02:18:43 Retardedpope: engineering has a lot of lisp going on, although not CL nor Scheme, but AutoLISP 02:18:43 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:18:51 What can I do to avoid that SBCL note? 02:18:57 inlining 02:19:56 Adlai: don't return floating point numbers 02:20:09 stassats: that will still show that when compiling the function that is inlinable 02:20:32 Adlai: floating point numbers can't be returned from functions efficiently 02:20:34 right, but will not take effect on the caller site 02:20:38 rahul: only if you ask for speed optimisation in the out of line definition. 02:20:47 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ohmntqyldjtzcuuu] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:21:09 pkhuong: hmm true... the declamations in effect at that point don't apply to the call site 02:22:03 the major software companies like Microsoft, Apple, Google, Adobe etc. doesn't seem to use a lot of lisp... Am I wrong or why is that? 02:22:18 you should ask them 02:22:58 i am sure there is an appropriate nietzsche quote for that question 02:23:15 eihrul: "Because God is dead"? 02:23:24 ... and no one cares 02:23:48 ragnul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:06 stassats, so there's no way to avoid the warning? 02:24:14 Apple bought the company that made the lisp compiler for the Mac 02:24:17 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:24:24 MS uses lisp for internal stuff 02:24:25 Adlai: decrease speed settings 02:24:29 -!- ragnul is now known as rahul 02:24:43 and google is severely opposed to lisp because it's "the same as python" 02:24:46 hehe we're going for fast code here... :| 02:24:56 Adlai: declare speed locally 02:25:02 and inlining 02:25:10 hmm 02:25:11 Adlai: do you know that this function is a bottleneck? 02:25:27 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:25:29 rahul: AFAIK it's more like they have list of accepted implementation languages and they are not taking anything outside 02:25:36 Adlai: returning a float (from a toplevel callable function anyway) will cause consing for the foreseeable future in SBCL. You can avoid that issue with inlining, or by not returning float values. 02:25:44 p_l: except for half-assed crap that they make in-house of course 02:25:58 rahul, the function itself isn't a bottleneck, but it's in a file with a (declaim (optimize speed)) 02:26:05 Adlai: so what? 02:26:08 srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:15 I'll use a locally form to "muffle" the warning 02:26:19 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 02:26:23 *rahul* boggles 02:26:35 Adlai: why are you optimizing stuff that's not a bottleneck, then? 02:26:54 most of the stuff in that file is a bottleneck 02:26:56 you've just pessimized debugging and dynamism, then 02:27:16 hmm 02:27:29 "optimization" is not a "win" 02:27:32 it is a tradeoff. 02:27:44 -!- metasyntax` [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 02:27:52 rahul: most of the stuff in this application is a bottleneck :\ 02:27:53 that's why you don't (declare optimize) in lisp. you say what you want to optimize 02:27:59 sg [n=sg@83.231.40.241] has joined #lisp 02:28:01 hi 02:28:06 sykopomp: that's not mathematically possible... 02:28:08 one question... 02:28:10 Adlai: even in extremely performance-oriented and static code, I usually only ask for speed optimisation in a couple key places, and (safety 0) or (sb-c::insert-array-bound-check 0) in even fewer locations. 02:28:18 sykopomp: unless you've written spaghetti code 02:28:23 rahul: any internal project also has to conform to that list 02:28:34 p_l: yeah 02:28:37 what's the CL policy on redefining primitives? 02:28:47 i mean internal ones, like car, cdr and so on 02:28:47 sg: in a word "no" 02:28:48 sg: "don't' 02:28:49 pkhuong, thank you for the advice 02:28:58 sg: you can shadow them, but you're on your own if you break something :P 02:29:02 *Adlai* emphasizes "advice" as opposed to "lecture" 02:29:06 rahul: hopefully, the code has improved from the C a bit wrt that. 02:29:14 but... i mean, it's it enforced by CL specs? 02:29:18 p_l: shadowing doesn't break anything. 02:29:21 sg: yes 02:29:22 p_l: There are some non-google-language approved things running internally. I know they're using puppet for multiple-host config management, and that stuf is written in Ruby. 02:29:32 i know it isn't in Scheme 02:29:35 pkhuong: what would you do in order to optimize 2d vector math? 02:29:38 sg: it's enforced by some implementations. The spec only talks about undefined consequences. 02:29:39 a lot of Scheme interpreters let you redefine them 02:29:41 clhs 11.2.1.2.1 02:29:42 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 11.2.1.2.1. 02:29:47 sykopomp: more details. 02:29:50 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 02:29:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 02:30:07 <_3b> sykopomp: is the math a bottleneck again? 02:30:15 Retardedpope1 [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:18 sykopomp: I would get an FPGA :) 02:30:24 pkhuong: we're working on a 2d physics lib, and there's lots of vector math going on. Many functions allocate and return vec objects (atm, 2-slot SVs) 02:30:43 sg: you can redefine, but consequences are undefined 02:30:43 _3b: vec* is definitely one of the major bottlenecks, sayeth sb-sprof. 02:30:44 sykopomp, they're simple-arrays, not SVs 02:30:47 sykopomp thanks 02:30:47 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 02:30:51 <_3b> sykopomp: no they aren't, unless you broke them 02:30:57 <_3b> ^what adlai said 02:31:03 sykopomp: eek, you don't want to allocate vectors on the heap in a physics library, that is bad :P 02:31:06 sg: and you shouldn't want to do this 02:31:09 simple-vectors are not optimized for type 02:31:16 you want 1-d simple-arrays 02:31:24 <_3b> right, you fix that by inlining it, and making sure the type of the arg is known in calling functions 02:31:31 stassats it's just to check what languages do with this 02:31:31 (simple-array (2) 'double-float) probably 02:31:37 eihrul, yeah, we're -just- starting to optimize the code (beyond one round of optimization that _3b did earlier) 02:31:49 rahul, yes, that's what they are. they're not SVs. 02:31:51 eihrul: yes. I've noticed that. First things first, though (get it working) 02:31:53 if i don't allow it i can do some optimizations that i can't if i allow on my language 02:31:55 Adlai: ok 02:32:00 <_3b> sykopomp: i didn't do that since it would mean touching all the places where the 2nd arg is stored, which is everywhere, and ratios half the time :p 02:32:14 sg: that's exactly why CL forbids it 02:32:37 it's a pretty strong reason 02:32:41 sg: then the compiler can inline, for example, + or CDR, as an assembly instruction instead of a function call 02:32:46 for me it means about a 20% performance difference 02:32:52 because it also uses it not only for optimizations, but internally too 02:33:23 i can just replace the symbols that are primitives by their values if i don't allow redefinition 02:33:32 otherwise i can't, but anyway redefining them will break something 02:33:45 clhs shadow 02:33:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_shadow.htm 02:33:49 pkhuong: I meant it as "I shadowed car and then some code later on in that package broke" :D 02:33:50 sykopomp: that sort of functionality is pretty much lossy to start with. You could try and represent them as complex double floats, which would give you a neat unboxed representation internally, etc. Ideally, you'd never work on individual points, and only on aggregates (which you could then represent and process smartly) 02:33:51 because for example cadddr is implemented in terms of others 02:33:55 sg: that explains why your performance improvement is so low :) 02:34:34 <_3b> yeah, i was expecting batching the vector math stuff would be the best way to speed it up 02:34:38 pkhuong, that's a good idea. I think we should try complex floats. 02:34:53 if you operate on aggregates, you might be able to code the functions using SSE, as well 02:35:56 <_3b> batching would require a bit more understanding of the code than i've managed so far :p 02:35:57 rahul well, this is an interpreter, but i do inline them 02:36:06 (granted they can't be redefined) 02:36:51 _3b: one of the best ways to work around random per-call overhead. 02:37:12 sg: if you wrote your language in lisp, you'd get the compiler for free :) 02:37:12 rgbgr [n=chatzill@wotan.janville.org] has joined #lisp 02:37:20 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, first we would need to work around random control/data flow though, to get the data in one place :) 02:37:43 _3b: got a link? 02:37:52 _3b: well, that may be the primary source of the slowness 02:38:02 rahul i can't, there are some semantics that are hard to translate to lisp 02:38:02 -!- rgbgr [n=chatzill@wotan.janville.org] has left #lisp 02:38:02 <_3b> http://github.com/sykopomp/squirl 02:38:13 otherwise i would do it, i hate java 02:38:15 _3b: it could be that given the flow in your application, you can't improve performance other than by optimizing that flow 02:38:27 sg: that makes no sense whatsoever 02:38:47 why? 02:38:49 sg: java semantics are _tested_ in lisp 02:38:59 <_3b> rahul: no, there is room for speedup with current code, but larger speedup will require better understanding of the code (it is a port of a C library) 02:39:19 _3b: the speedup is probably insignificant 02:39:34 <_3b> rahul: i'd expect ~2x or so 02:39:37 if you optimize the flow, you could probably get much better optimizaiton 02:39:40 <_3b> (on sbcl at least) 02:39:52 _3b: there's even a reimplementation of CIS in there (: 02:40:00 _3b: 2x the performance of those functions, but the overhead is still likely to dominate that time 02:40:05 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:40:12 <_3b> rahul: overall i mean 02:40:23 <_3b> rahul: but agreed, real speed will need real work :) 02:40:43 <_3b> pkhuong: CIS? 02:40:49 clhs cis 02:40:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cis.htm 02:40:50 clhs cis 02:40:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cis.htm 02:41:12 <_3b> ah, sounds useful :) 02:41:15 ffffu- 02:41:34 _3b, it'd be an advantage of using complex numbers for vectors 02:41:49 although I don't think we call that function much 02:42:01 <_3b> yeah, worth trying once the rest is fixed 02:42:16 vec* is murder ;_; 02:42:26 depending on how cute you want to be, I'd represent points either as complex floats directly, or wrap them in something else and add a compiler macro for (point-to-complex (complex to point ...)) 02:43:30 cadabra [n=cadabra@c-76-23-34-5.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:32 <_3b> sykopomp: too bad it uses that evil macro so you can't inline it as easily :p 02:43:52 :\ 02:44:02 pkhuong: that seems like a real hack to me. 02:44:14 using a complex, that is 02:44:18 <_3b> with-random-symbols-interned-in-the-wrong-place :p 02:44:28 pkhuong, is there a reason to prefer the latter, other than "semantic" benefit? 02:45:55 Adlai: not that I can see. 02:48:15 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:49:04 -!- Retardedpope [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:49:28 Ralith: it's also a hack using a cons cell to represent a sequence 02:49:44 Ralith: in fact, it's also a hack using bits to represent a symbol 02:49:47 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:50:21 rahul: the former is a standard linked list, and the latter is implementation-defined :P 02:50:27 Ralith: the key is using ADTs. Defining good accessors to the type, and making it LOOK like you're dealing with something that's not a hack. What is actually stored is rather irrelevant. 02:50:43 that doesn't make it less a hack 02:50:59 Ralith: (1 . 2) isn't too great of a linked list 02:51:01 You can also avoid returning floats by passing a vector or struct in which to store the return value. 02:51:06 surely it's possible to get maximal performance out of a lisp without resorting to pretending you're working with a different kind of data. 02:51:22 Ralith: that's how you get performance out of anything at all 02:51:36 rahul: you're being obtsue. 02:51:37 Ralith: floating point itself is resorting to pretending you're working with a different kind of data 02:51:45 implementation-defined 02:51:48 Ralith: floating point does not represent real numbers 02:51:53 Ralith: not implementation defined 02:51:54 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:04 *Ralith* facepalms 02:52:05 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:52:13 you're not helping at all 02:52:13 Ralith: it's defined to be floating point, which means specific things 02:52:20 pkhuong, if the function is inlined, that's not a problem, right? 02:52:31 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:32 Adlai: nope. 02:52:46 Adlai: but inlining everything isn't a good idea. 02:52:51 Adlai: not all systems do anything with inline declarations. 02:53:06 <_3b> is expanding macros at inlining time specified in the spec somewhere? 02:53:07 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 02:53:08 Ralith: representing 2d points with complexes is a classic pun. 02:53:14 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:53:14 file boundaries also make a difference to inlining 02:53:36 -!- overdrive [n=user@81.202.77.182.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:53:46 _3b: "inlining time"? the ONLY thing that's specified about compilation is that macros must all be expanded. 02:53:49 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 02:53:50 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 02:53:55 srcerer__ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:09 pkhuong: I dunno, it smells of "lisps can't handle doing this the logical way so we're faking it with a datatype likely to be usefully specialcased" 02:54:11 <_3b> rahul: during compilation of a function that calls a function declared inline 02:54:24 pkhuong, we don't have that many functions returning floats, most return vectors (soon to be complexes, after some other issues are sorted) 02:54:26 Ralith: it *is* logical to represent points in the 2d plane as complex values. 02:54:35 conceptually perhaps 02:54:37 *_3b* would have assumed minimal compilation during compilation of the function to be inlined, but apparently not 02:54:37 Adlai: same problem with returning complexes. 02:54:50 GAAAAAHHHH 02:54:52 but I mean in the sense of using a data type meant for one thing as another simply because the impl's likely to treat it specially 02:55:06 command input has degenerated to insanity in mcclim 02:55:08 Ralith: that's what complex values are. Would you also object to using floats to represent points on a line? 02:55:28 _3b: the semantics of inline functions are the same as normal functions 02:55:36 pkhuong: complex values represent points on the *imaginary* plane, which we're not dealing with :P 02:55:54 pkhuong: I mean, why shouldn't a simple-array specified with a constant dimension and data type be just as fast? 02:55:55 _3b: the compiler is just free to make extra optimizations that will break dynamic redefinition 02:56:15 pkhuong, how would returning floats or complexes in a dummy struct be better? (assuming I understand SBCL's "making a pointer" warning) 02:56:21 sileni [n=durka101@cpe-075-182-055-116.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:24 hello everyone 02:56:33 Adlai: you receive a struct in which to shove the return value as an argument. 02:56:36 <_3b> rahul: sbcl and ccl both expand macros used in an inlined function while compiling calls to that function from what i could tell 02:56:47 does anyone in here have expereince with backus's FP language 02:57:09 Ralith: because the operaitons on simple-arrays need to be able to deal with arbitrarily sizes 02:57:09 im trying to define a function in FP but i don't understand how to pass in 2 arguments :( 02:57:12 Ralith: imaginary *plane*? 02:57:40 sileni: that's off-topic 02:57:53 stassats, hmm what channel would i go to ? 02:57:57 pkhuong: well, quaterions have an imaginary 3-space 02:58:12 so maybe he's thinking of triernions by mistake? 02:58:17 rahul: in my world, imaginary numbers form a line. 02:58:26 sileni: no idea, i doubt there is such 02:58:34 pkhuong: what a limited world... without quaternions or octonions 02:58:36 triernions don't result in any sort of useful algebra. 02:58:45 pkhuong: I never said they would :) 02:58:51 pkhuong, I think I understand the idea. Thank you for your suggestions :) 02:58:55 but apparently Ralith uses them 02:59:56 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has left #lisp 03:00:32 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:36 rahul: not when the type is a simple-array of a constant size. 03:00:39 which I stated. 03:01:15 Ralith: that gets into sufficiently-smart-compiler-land, the dual of the turing tarpit, but just as dangerously useless. 03:02:16 If the question is whether complexes are appropriate to represent the semantics of points on the plane, I don't see why not (you get to add, subtract, scale and rotate points naturally, that's pretty good). 03:02:20 Ralith, I think it's more likely for a compiler to have a good representation of complex floats, than to have a type system extensible enough to compile custom types as efficiently as complex floats. 03:02:54 pkhuong: pkhuong fair enough. 03:02:56 I think Ralith is the space shuttle here 03:03:13 Adlai: lisp HAS a type system good enough to do that 03:03:27 Adlai: also fair enough, I suppose 03:03:50 rahul, indeed, which is why some CL compilers are so great :) 03:03:53 Adlai: it's just that SBCL doesn't open-code array operations for the declared length 03:04:15 it would be an interesting optimization, tho 03:04:24 anyways 03:04:32 rahul: heh? what array operations are you talking about? 03:04:49 *Adlai* gets back to trying to put these suggestions to practice 03:04:51 pkhuong: MAP-INTO would probably be a good one 03:05:19 it would turn into N direct array accesses instead of an iteration 03:05:24 rahul: surprise surprise... Or maybe you mean unroll? 03:05:33 pkhuong: not quite 03:05:56 oh, I guess the unroll could fully unroll into a not-a-loop 03:06:08 map-into will be open coded if it's known to work on (simple-array double-float (2))s. 03:06:14 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 03:06:16 as long as the array length was allowed to propagate into the iteration variable 03:06:31 pkhuong: oh cool 03:06:44 so they could use map-into instead of complexes 03:07:21 -!- Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has left #lisp 03:07:39 rahul: on x86-64, complexes would likely be faster. 03:07:49 ... Especially with inlining. 03:07:54 true 03:08:04 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442850.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 03:08:05 <_3b> does sbcl do SSE for complexes? 03:08:16 it does SSE for any floating point math 03:08:17 _3b: on x86-64, since this summer. 03:08:39 <_3b> cool 03:08:47 (that doesn't mean that it uses SSE in parallel across a data structure always) 03:08:55 -!- ergodicsum [n=ergudics@cpe-075-182-116-231.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:09:45 how do I get the command loop to refresh the history displayed? 03:09:47 Is there a reason why (my-generic-function foo) would work but (map 'list #'my-generic-function '(foo)) would result in "no method is applicable"? 03:10:02 <_3b> quidnunc: foo != 'foo ? 03:10:06 quidnunc: the first element in the list (foo) is the symbol foo. 03:10:13 objects have been modified by following commands and I want the presentation of those objects to reflect that new value 03:10:14 -!- srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:10:20 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:10:25 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:11:04 -!- sileni [n=durka101@cpe-075-182-055-116.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:11:23 quidnunc, rather than '(foo), try (list foo) or if you like lots of syntax, `(,foo) 03:12:25 _3b, pkhuong, Adlai: Thanks 03:12:33 `',! 03:14:07 #1=(:D . #1#) 03:14:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 03:15:32 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:15:45 (format t . #1=("~@{~:D~}" . #1#)) 03:16:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-102.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:18:59 I'm disappointed that that doesn't start producing output immediately 03:19:28 rahul, maybe it would if you defined a ~//-compatible wrapper around finish-output 03:19:39 hmmmmm 03:19:41 (and stuck it in the format string) 03:20:35 yeah 03:20:45 ~% doesn't do the trick either 03:21:08 finish-output /= terpri 03:21:27 but buffering is usually by line 03:21:40 stassats: yeah that was my reasoning... 03:21:42 oh, there's also a problem because I don't think that form will finish compiling :) 03:21:47 but apparently sbcl does some more stuff 03:21:58 oh I didn't look at the stack 03:22:32 grr, it sends me into ldb 03:24:32 ah, ok. missed the . when I added the ~%... now it gets stuck on calling LENGTH on the form 03:25:01 SB-INT:SIMPLE-EVAL-IN-LEXENV calls LENGTH on the passed-in form 03:25:26 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 03:25:50 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:26:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:49 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:28:21 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 03:31:48 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 03:32:54 redblue [i=star@ppp070.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:33:08 Hey, I'm trying to handle an keyboard interrupt. Does anyone know what type it is? I have tried handler-case with just error but no luck there :( 03:33:39 deylen: it's not standardized 03:33:49 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBAE98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:34:02 rahul: Ah I see, does that mean no way to ignore them either? 03:34:10 deylen: what do you want to do in the case of a keyboard interrupt that's different from what you'd do in the case of any other random error? 03:34:14 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:34:19 deylen: why would you ignore them? 03:34:30 to annoy users 03:34:32 if the user wants to interrupt your application, you should let them 03:35:01 rahul: I'm in the process of making a game creation library. It might be nice for developers to be able to ignore keyboard interrupts to avoid giving everyone access to their code. 03:35:18 -!- sg [n=sg@83.231.40.241] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:35:21 they'd have access either way 03:35:27 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-10-212.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 03:35:35 how so? 03:35:37 an interrupt isn't going to stop them from accessing what's in the saved image 03:35:40 *_3b* hopes it isn't for action games 03:36:09 Ah of course, I forgot you could load the executable images. Hmm. 03:36:36 <_3b> deylen: some people disassemble things for fun too :) 03:36:58 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:12 _3b: its not got enough built on it to know what type of games people will make with it, but I am going to be using it for 2d games mostly :) 03:37:21 yeah, once the game stops being fun, they'll start disassembling it 03:37:32 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:37:38 deylen: sounds like UID 03:37:45 Whats UID? 03:38:01 the sound someone makes when punched in the gut 03:38:02 ask sykopomp :D 03:38:16 rahul: you know, that's exactly what I was thinking :) 03:38:33 <_3b> sounds like you should be handling input differently then, if you still see ctrl-c as an interrupt 03:39:31 <_3b> as far as 'disabling' it, you might look for implementation specific ways of disabling the debugger, killing the app is probably closer to what you and users would want anyway 03:39:33 Well, I allow the developers to handle input through SDL, but I've not found a way yet to open the OpenGL window withought the console window in the background. 03:40:32 <_3b> or implementation specific ways of handling the interrupt, but as mentioned earlier, disabling it completely would be annoying :) 03:41:04 I can see what you mean. Maybe a function that allows devs to disable it if they really want code obfustication. 03:41:21 Hmm thats probably a decent Idea of implementation specific methods, and just use #+Openmcl etc. 03:41:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has quit [] 03:41:45 Any way you guys know of, to obfusticate lisp code and have it remain operational? 03:42:07 <_3b> compiling it is probably a reasonable way 03:42:09 compile it 03:42:14 (labels(({(] &rest [)(apply([ ])[))([(>)(elt(]())>))(](<)(do-external-symbols(] :cl)(push ] <))(sort <`string<`:key`string))(}({ + ^)({`816`1/5)({`688({`875({`398()"~{~A~^ ~}"(]())){(+ { +)))({`381)^))(do*(({`47986({`584 }`36063))([`7997({`395 {`6))(]`4({`584 {`6))(}` 4923298736072320744248333452836752 ({`395 }`36063)))((} [ ] ({`977 ]))({`902)({`381)))) 03:42:19 Ah, I thought that was just a speed increase. 03:42:24 in other words: yes. 03:42:25 <_3b> maybe remove docstrings for a bit extra 03:42:36 debug 0? 03:43:43 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:43:44 <_3b> anyone motivated will get whatever they want out of the code, anyone else probably won't care either way though 03:44:43 _3b: its very true, I guess compiling it into the executable should be enough. 03:44:54 <_3b> also, feel free to join us in #lispgames 03:45:06 deylen: as long as they do a compile-file and load, source shouldn't be in the image 03:45:15 Probably slightly more secure than loading an external compiled file as it could be swapped with injection code. 03:45:24 that is, as long as the load is in a separate session 03:45:37 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:45:48 deylen: their OS could have injection code 03:45:49 deylen: fun fact: if licensing terms don't stop people from reversing your code, technical measures won't either. 03:45:59 their OS might even know what's in the memory, too 03:46:11 and they might be able to get the OS to tell them! 03:46:15 rahul: that depends on introspection settings, i believe 03:46:23 heh I'm not worried about my code, I've always released my games open source, others might though. 03:46:34 that's their problem. 03:46:39 deylen: most of the IP in a game is in the artwork 03:46:52 deylen: and that can be stolen pretty trivially 03:47:01 Its true what you are saying though, if people really want to get at the code, I'm not going to be able to stop them. 03:47:03 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:48:06 Ok, thanks very much for all your answers :) I'll post a link here when I get to the next release if you are all interested. 03:48:13 you can sue them 03:48:25 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:48:53 *_3b* should just give up on getting exceptions right, finding bugs faster than i fix them :p 03:50:33 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBABEA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:44 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 03:53:01 DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:46 rahul: can you explain the code that Adlai posted? I'm not following.... 03:57:09 Retardedpope1: run the code. 03:57:26 Retardedpope1: you can also macroexpand it. It's actually based on very simple rule 03:58:03 sykopomp: rahul just told me to not run code I don't understand.... 03:58:22 namely, the symbols in COMMON-LISP package are ordered and numbered, with numbers being portable between ANSI CL implementations 03:58:29 Retardedpope1: pfff, ignore that fool. 03:58:31 ;D 03:58:51 you can pprint it 03:58:55 ceineke_ [n=chris@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 03:59:40 Retardedpope1, I pasted an explanation of it on lisppaste a while back, if you're interested 04:00:08 Adlai: sure 04:00:15 *Adlai* digs 04:00:35 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 04:01:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:01:29 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88765 04:02:11 Retardedpope1, the actual code described there was written by Fare, who comes here pretty often. The code I pasted earlier is almost the same except for one number. 04:03:09 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:03:13 Yeah, it didn't give the same output 04:03:20 ok, it doesn't delete any files 04:03:22 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:03:42 *stassats* got it after pprinting it 04:04:59 Hehe, I love the spoiler warning :P 04:06:17 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:06:59 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:09:48 heh 04:09:57 the key is that []{} are not special characters in lisp 04:10:08 they're just parts of symbol names by default 04:10:10 -!- ceineke_ [n=chris@24.235.36.231] has quit [Client Quit] 04:11:24 Why don't I have colored parentheses? They made reading the code a lot easier... 04:11:34 Where can I get those? 04:11:47 nah, forget about them 04:12:41 indentation makes it readable 04:12:44 your code should be indented so that you don't need to look at the parens 04:12:58 just re-indent it if it's looking off 04:13:21 and if it's looking off after that, then you better fix the parens :) 04:15:22 I'm doing my best with the indentation, but colored parantheses would still be nice 04:15:31 not really 04:15:43 seriously, if you need that, then you're in trouble 04:15:59 anyway, any editor should highlight the specific matching paren to the one you're on 04:16:18 rahul: it does... 04:16:18 all that multicolor stuff will just get distracting as you're editing the code 04:16:24 there you go 04:16:29 that + indentation is plenty 04:16:44 I want plentier 04:16:50 and prettier 04:17:19 I'll be fine though 04:17:20 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:18:08 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-98-116-202-61.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:24 Retardedpope1, search for paren face on emacswiki 04:18:32 slime+color-theme is not enough? 04:18:39 parenface.el 04:18:56 I'm emacs... can't use it 04:19:07 I gave up pretty quickely 04:20:04 well, here is your problem 04:20:50 you are not using the right tools, like beach teaches us 04:21:15 stassats: because I don't know how to use them.... 04:21:25 nothing works like I'm used to 04:21:41 that's why you need to learn 04:22:00 It took me quite a while to figure out how to exit emacs.... 04:22:19 then I didn't feel like getting stuck in there again 04:22:26 see, your trial and error method isn't effective 04:22:38 most of people here actualy connect to irc from emacs.. 04:22:47 stassats: touché 04:23:03 Retardedpope1: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html nice essay on that topic 04:23:04 you're not supposed to exit emacs 04:23:11 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bfwyrpbpxydywcjd] has joined #lisp 04:23:16 why would you do such a thing?!? 04:23:45 can you really pull the trigger when that cute little gnu is looking at you with those big eyes? 04:23:48 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-98-116-202-61.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:24:01 ilttle? 04:24:06 I just went from gnu to gnu 04:24:12 little^ 04:24:32 *stassats* exits emacs to start a newer emacs compiled from sources 04:24:41 rahul: cute little gnu? I'd pull the trigger happily :D 04:24:45 heh 04:24:51 or when i break it 04:25:23 yes, putting an injured emacs down is the only humane way sometimes 04:25:33 Retardedpope1: some tools are really worth the time you need to invest in them to learn.. 04:25:39 *p_l* removed that splash screen 04:26:41 ceineke_ [n=chris@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 04:26:58 nyquist: does it not take more than a week to learn emacs? 04:27:11 ha-ha 04:27:30 Retardedpope1: it takes decades to learn emacs 04:27:35 as it does with lisp 04:27:47 the editor of the CL spec is still learning lisp 04:27:47 rahul: then I'll miss my deadline 04:28:06 Retardedpope1: but you will be just fine orienting yourself in there if you invest some 20 mins to get the basics 04:28:09 emacs and lisp are infinite 04:28:28 learn what you need to do what you want 04:28:34 build what you need if it's not there 04:28:50 learn that it's already part of the standard 04:29:02 heh 04:29:14 C-x something M-x something is not rocket science 04:29:31 except the version in the standard works with more different kinds of data and is faster :) 04:29:49 and has more options 04:29:51 nyquist: I hope not, I don't wanna end up on the moon 04:30:12 me too, i want Mars 04:30:39 so what's the emacs command for that? 04:30:59 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has joined #lisp 04:31:08 well, there's M-x butterfly which edits the files using really funky chaos physics 04:31:08 There are emacs commands for everything right? 04:31:14 Retardedpope1, M-x butterfly 04:31:31 Retardedpope1: yes, since any command can be defined 04:31:42 Retardedpope1: even for exiting Emacs 04:31:42 -!- marioxcc-AFK [n=user@201.132.49.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:31:44 your ideal command is just a defun away 04:32:31 stassats: so I can make all commands exit emacs and then I will not have the same horrible experience ever again? 04:33:00 (defun go-to-mars () (interactive) (wire-money 1e10 my-account nasa-account)) 04:33:02 jenia [n=jenia@modemcable148.172-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:33:08 hello 04:33:09 Retardedpope1: you will end up on some strange alien territory, that is for sure.. but you will find out that you like it.. 04:33:43 can someone tell me if a define an "after" method, how can I invoke the output from the "original" method inside the "after" method to use it? 04:33:44 rahul: you forgot (sleep 20-years) 04:33:52 heh 04:33:52 nyquist: I hope they have good music and beer 04:34:08 jenia: it's automatically run after your primary method 04:34:09 jenia: you can't. 04:34:20 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:22 oh 04:34:31 you can in around method 04:34:45 jenia: use an around method (let ((result (call-next-method))) (mangle result) result) 04:34:50 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:35:10 thanks rahul and pkhuong 04:35:19 I Can't get my output to frigging go to my application pane 04:35:36 (let ((monitor (get-frame-pane *application-frame* 'monitor))) 04:35:36 (updating-output (monitor) 04:35:57 the output in there, which I direct to the stream monitor, doesn't show up 04:36:11 monitor is defined as (monitor :application :scroll-bars t) 04:36:14 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:37:26 fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:29 you need to redisplay it, afair 04:37:37 or use incremental-redisplay 04:37:43 isn't an application pane updated every command? 04:37:50 I'm doing updating-output there 04:38:47 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:47 04:38:47 -!- names: ccl-logbot fihi09 saikatc jenia mishoo ceineke_ spradnyesh simplechat envi^office DrForr_ QinGW1 OmniMancer H4ns1 redblue nyquist kpreid srcerer__ RustyWheeler mtd cadabra Retardedpope1 rahul stassats baddog ace4016 benny rme Adlai beach` Adamant skeptomai|away konr sykopomp Vonunov Tordek eldragon rstandy crink fawxtin`` plutonas thermal_ slackjaw TR2N z0d koollman ia salva ltriant dalkvist_ kejsaren_ hypno redline6561 colin__ s0ber gz` gz 04:38:47 -!- names: lisppaste ntd Krystof eno__ rread legumbre REPLeffect_ fe[nl]ix Guest28110 Guest2832 ironChicken hdurer__ hdurer_ wgl_ slather _3b ASau dcrawford antoszka spec[away] GrayGnome abeaumont metasyntax weirdo rrice ignas kuwabara CrazyEddy daniel stepnem ryepup1 sellout luis` hoeq nipra poet cmm rlarson82 Ralith majhool madnificent harag stoop lpolzer rullie Modius wlr koning_robot WhiteFlam yacin housel Taggnostr Bucciarati highb thijso mornfall 04:38:47 -!- names: EinarDogfin pok jyujin arbscht aking p8m qsun fatalnix1995_ schme tsuru` tessier joga ve Xach jsnell holycow Elench Spaghettini Computer drewc nowhereman mgr rares yahooooo moesenle xinming_ Dodek Lycurgus nasloc__ KatrinaTheLamia billitch spacebat ecraven ianmcorvidae dek5 lnostdal huangjs Khisanth robewald bfein sjbach fnordus nimred |coyoes| Summermute66 Aisling Buganini bakkdoor BrianRice rootzlevel araujo whoppix kloeri chii prip _3b` 04:38:47 -!- names: vsync frodef pixel5 felipe specbot rsynnott bdowning krappie tic PissedNumlock ramus` herbieB Guest67387 guenthr foom esden cpt_nemo setheus_ bohanlon qidush_ mikezor clog_ acieroid froydnj rlonstein eibmozoib rbancroft rapacity piso cods eihrul antifuchs codemonkeyx frontiers lichtblau AntiSpamMeta nicktastique scode rotty egn mathrick hicx174 Madsy C-o-r-E kleppari dostoyev1ky blast_hardcheese emma fgtech mfo Adrinael retupmoca metric jrockway 04:38:47 -!- names: vcgomes zbigniew michaelw nareshov Patzy djinni` alexbobp Demosthenes rtoym spiaggia lukjad007 zeroish joast dfox mle tltstc luis johs Pepe_ erg boyscared cataska r0bby j0ni ``Erik l_a_m myrkraverk mncaudill Orest^bnc xristos pkhuong gonzojive deepfire sytse p_l nullman wgl manituuuu hohum Borbus Xof Draggor StanleyD nyef maskd lharc rey_ tvaalen Zhivago tarbo_ minion ski phadthai Fade mogunus blitz_ smithzv aja Axioplase_ erk guaqua qebab 04:38:47 -!- names: anekos pragma_ ineiros trittweiler 04:38:56 no dice 04:39:22 stassats: er, where? 04:39:30 it's not an option to updating-output 04:39:42 (monitor :application :scroll-bars t :incremental-redisplay t) 04:41:36 oh 04:42:39 yippiiiiiee. thanks stassats :) 04:43:07 ooo and the presentations light up when they're acceptable args to the command being input 04:43:25 hmm, didn't automatically update 04:43:58 -!- ceineke_ [n=chris@24.235.36.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:45:46 stassats: Who wrote "The psychology of learning"? 04:46:04 Retardedpope1: beach` 04:46:42 ok 04:48:14 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:48:25 The people in the category perfection-oriented have a natural intellectual curiosity. They are constantly searching for better ways of doing things, new methods, new tools. They search for perfection, but they take pleasure in the search itself, knowing perfectly well that perfection can not be accomplished. To the people in this category, failure is a normal part of the strive for perfection. In fact, failure gives a deeper un 04:48:25 Isn't this speaking in favour for trial and error? 04:48:29 :display-time :command-loop doesn't seem to work... 04:48:43 Retardedpope1: no 04:48:51 I fail all the time, so I must surely be striving for perfection :P 04:48:56 Retardedpope1: remember the story I told you about Knight 04:48:57 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:49:04 rahul: updating-output is for incremental-redisplay 04:49:06 clim updating-output 04:49:07 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 04:49:07 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/21-2.html#_1019 04:49:14 <_3b> directed trying things is good, human monte-carlo is less good 04:49:20 Retardedpope1: for a deeper analysis, read zen and the art of motorcycle maintainence 04:49:29 stassats: yeah, I am 04:50:19 "In fact, failure gives a deeper understanding of why a particular path was unsuccessful, making it possible to avoid similar paths in the future." 04:50:21 See 04:50:34 I must be doing the right thing 04:50:44 <_3b> Retardedpope1: only if you have a deeper understanding now 04:51:14 _3b: I do, I know what ' does 04:51:28 _3b: I can use aref 04:51:40 I know what #( does 04:51:52 it's not really deep 04:51:54 <_3b> so what is #987654321() ? 04:52:03 stassats: deeper 04:52:08 than before 04:52:22 i'd say broader 04:52:55 "They search for perfection, but they take pleasure in the search itself, knowing perfectly well that perfection can not be accomplished." 04:53:10 <_3b> Retardedpope1: also, how much of your understanding is from people here, and how much from the trial and error? 04:53:12 I'm surely enjoying this 04:54:14 _3b: I try something and it goes wrong and then I ask what I did wrong... 04:54:32 <_3b> and then you waste our time, instead of using your time to look up the answer 04:54:53 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:06 <_3b> (and speaking of wasting time, i'm supposed to be fixing code :p ) 04:55:38 Retardedpope1: you have as deep of an understanding as you could have gotten WITHOUT failing 04:55:40 _3b: Well, there's no one forcing you to ask questions on irc.... 04:56:09 <_3b> there are people forcing me to filter out noise in order to find the interesting content though 04:56:12 rahul: i guess you need to provide a :display-function and print your presentations from it 04:56:14 and yes, you are not getting an understanding from failing 04:56:19 stassats: hmm 04:56:28 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.3] has joined #lisp 04:56:31 and incremental-redisplay will take care of updating everything 04:56:38 stassats: I'm using it as a stream, tho 04:56:42 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 04:56:48 O 04:56:53 rahul: but I wouldn't be striving for that understanding if I didn't fail first... 04:57:03 I'm just printing stuff inside of an updating-output 04:57:12 Retardedpope1: you're not striving 04:57:21 Retardedpope1: you're finally deciding to learn once you fail 04:57:29 rahul: If I can be successful and not understand anything it would be perfect. 04:57:57 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-193-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:08 rahul: I am at least accomplishing learning 04:58:12 Retardedpope1: if you say that, you truely understand nothing 04:58:20 and I'm fun while I'm doing it 04:58:36 Retardedpope1: you're accomplishing learning in the same way someone who is not curious learns 04:58:52 you ask someone else and they explain it to you 04:59:11 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-17-20.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:19 rahul: If I ask it means that I want to know.... now... 04:59:20 to learn that way, you need to have an idea of the structure of the system you are dealing with 04:59:26 I'm eager to know 04:59:36 Retardedpope1: so read a book 04:59:48 rahul: something like (dolist (i list) (updating-output (stream :uniq-id nth-i) (present ...))) 04:59:50 rahul: that will take forever 04:59:52 asking about why something failed and figuring it out yourself is very different stuff 05:00:07 Retardedpope1: must faster than the dumb way you're doing it 05:00:43 Retardedpope1: it will take about 5 years to get an idea of what you're dealing with the way you're doing it 05:00:52 and then you'll actually start learning 05:01:11 (about how long it takes for an infant to grasp language) 05:01:42 stassats: yes, that's kind of what I'm doing 05:01:48 minion: tell Retardedpope1 about pcl 05:01:49 Retardedpope1: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:02:31 stassats: at least, I'm doing that present inside updating output that way. the output gets to the application pane, but never gets updated when I run another command even though I have :display-time :command-loop 05:03:11 "Introduction: Why Lisp?" Maybe that's what I should understand first... 05:03:34 you need to run function which presents it each time, through :display-function 05:05:27 and updating-output with the right :uniq-id and :cache-value for caching 05:05:33 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.226.98] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:56 Examples/address-book.lisp is a useful example 05:08:02 Why is AI the only field where I've encountered lisp? 05:08:40 The people that use it seems to love it... 05:09:06 <_3b> that applies to lots of things, doesn't mean anyone else does :p 05:09:18 jason` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:47 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:09 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@research-remote.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Quitting!"] 05:10:39 true 05:10:57 hmm 05:11:01 stassats: good idea 05:11:19 <_3b> also, you are approaching troll territory, might want to be careful... 05:11:32 stassats: wait, shouldn't the output stream keep track of all the outputs that have been printed to it? 05:12:09 jason`` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:22 stassats: or maybe I should keep a list independently and display all of those things myself... I think that's how I'm going to want it in the future so that I can remove stuff from the display 05:13:57 rahul: can you write a majority function in one line? 05:14:11 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.49] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:14:47 rahul: With the sequence transform magic you used earlier, maybe? 05:14:57 <_3b> Retardedpope1: newlines are optional 05:15:20 _3b: I'm aware of that.... 05:15:28 jason``` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:31 Retardedpope1: a majority function? 05:15:54 lisp is used a lot in AI because AI is difficult 05:15:59 rahul: takes a list as an argument and returns the most common object 05:15:59 <_3b> reduce #'max is my guess 05:16:05 <_3b> ah, guess not 05:16:20 Lisp allows exploratory programming and the creation of mini-languages to express the new ideas you're coming up with 05:16:55 '(2 3 3 1 1 1 3 3) =>3 05:17:38 Retardedpope1: you can write anything in one line by deleting the newlines :P 05:18:05 Ralith: I know.... 05:18:24 let's say less than 80 characters then... 05:18:36 that's a reasonable metric. 05:18:56 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:56 Ralith: thank you, I think so to... 05:19:06 <_3b> you should try J if you like minimizing character count, CL isn't optimized for that 05:19:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:57 Retardedpope1: (let ((frequencies (make-hash-table))) (map 'nil (lambda (value) (incf (gethash frequencies value 0))) list) (loop for k being the keys of frequencies and v being the values of frequencies with freq = 0 with result = nil when (> v freq) do (setf freq v result k) finally (return result)) 05:20:06 not quite 80 chars. 05:20:13 _3b: SERIES is 05:20:17 why do people use map 'nil instead of mapc? 05:20:28 Ralith: because it's one less thing to remember 05:20:39 Ralith: map nil works on vectors, too 05:20:41 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has joined #lisp 05:20:42 <_3b> rahul: i'd assume even SERIES has nice readable names 05:20:52 _3b: more or less 05:20:56 rahul: ah, neat. 05:21:35 rahul: Wow, that code looks very much like the code I wrote :D I guess I'm not that retarded :) 05:22:04 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 05:22:27 although there's an EXTREMUM function floating aroun 05:22:28 d 05:22:29 rahul: "being the"  =? 05:22:34 being the 05:22:40 oh, wait 05:22:42 clhs loop 05:22:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 05:22:43 that wouldn't work 05:22:50 that's remarkably human-readable. 05:22:56 that's loop 05:23:16 the two WITH clauses are more ideally at the start of the loop 05:23:32 semantically it makes no difference but the organization is more clear that way 05:24:11 (most-frequent-item '(2 3 3 1 1 1 3 3)) => 3 :P .. (i find the methods available to make code shorter more interesting than the short-by-default/base-language type thing) 05:24:22 (..and lisp has a lot of that available..) 05:24:55 <_3b> right, lisp is better at making large programs shorter than at 1line golf :) 05:25:58 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:26:08 indeed 05:26:27 but sometimes concision and clarity go hand in hand 05:27:06 actually, no, they never need to, at least not in lisp, because you can write your code however you like and then write macros to make it execute correctly 05:27:26 cl-python, for example 05:27:29 <_3b> i'd say that if you start losing clarity, you are being too concise 05:27:39 yes, even pathological cases like that 05:27:50 _3b: or you're being too verbose... 05:28:12 _3b: in terms of not distilling and abstracting enough 05:28:15 <_3b> right, but then they are still correlated :) 05:28:51 true... you're probably trying to be concise on the small scale but having so many small cases that the large scale is a mess 05:29:48 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:29:59 "here's 5 examples of what your program should do" ... code up those 5 cases ... "oh no, in this case it should do this" ... write an exception for that case ... repeat 05:30:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:36 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:17 clhs incf 05:32:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_incf_.htm 05:32:26 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 05:32:43 -!- jason` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:24 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:30 -!- jason`` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:34 (defun most-frequent-item (list) (car (sort (copy-seq list) #'>= :key #'(lambda (elem) (count elem list :test #'equal))))) 05:37:31 functional programming: the art of making awful solutions "elegant". 05:37:36 heh 05:37:39 *rahul* facepalm 05:38:06 is that an O(n^3) solution to an O(n) problem? 05:38:07 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:12 oh no 05:38:19 it's O(n^5), I think 05:38:26 no 4th 05:38:36 -!- jason``` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:52 more like O(face^palm) 05:39:01 Adlai: yeah heh 05:39:47 n^2 log n seems right, actually. doing an O(n) operation for every comparison, of which there are O(n log n) 05:39:52 i'd expect it to be n^2 lg n... 05:40:46 I don't understand what it's doing, but it works.... and it's the shortest solution.... 05:41:17 Retardedpope1: it's like my solution with sublis-if for counting leaves 05:41:28 except that it scans the list in a sort 05:41:47 timor [n=martin@87.234.97.27] has joined #lisp 05:42:22 -!- timor [n=martin@87.234.97.27] has left #lisp 05:42:36 I have an other challenge if you're interested.... '((0 0 0 0 0 2) (1 1 1 1 1) (0 1 2) (0 0 1 2 0 0)) '(0 1 2) => '((5 0 1) (0 1 0) (1 1 1) (4 1 1)) 05:42:44 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 05:42:45 Retardedpope1: best is not always shortest and vise versa :p 05:43:07 nyquist: I know, but I'm impressed anyway 05:43:29 Retardedpope1: (defun f (x) '((5 0 1) (0 1 0) (1 1 1) (4 1 1))) 05:44:02 rahul: I was waiting for such a solution... 05:44:22 Retardedpope1: look at my ridicule of such specifications to problems above 05:44:38 specification by example is no specification at all. 05:44:52 Anyway, it should be: '((0 0 0 0 0 2) (1 1 1 1 1) (0 1 2) (0 0 1 2 0 0)) '(0 1 2) => '((5 0 1) (0 5 0) (1 1 1) (4 1 1)) 05:45:16 rahul: there's a pattern and I want you to find it 05:45:36 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:45:44 hmm, I want a vector-pushnew-extend 05:45:49 Retardedpope1: it's good to want 05:46:09 Retardedpope1: there is no such thing as a pattern without 3 values 05:46:10 i want a pony 05:46:20 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:46:20 *madnificent* gives stassats a pony 05:46:23 rahul: not because it really matters, but I want to know if my data structure makes sense 05:46:30 now feed it, it's hungry 05:46:32 Retardedpope1: and that's just when you're limiting yourself to arithmetic and geometric sequences 05:46:49 *rahul* feeds Retardedpope1 to the pony 05:47:18 Retardedpope1: the only thing that makes a data structure make sense is good abstract accessors to the data in it 05:47:24 at least the pony is happy 05:47:37 the pony is convicted for murder and is sentenced to death by hanging 05:47:54 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:47:58 now we can have pony burgers 05:48:07 yay 05:48:17 MORE BURGERS 05:48:21 minion: chant! 05:48:21 MORE BURGERS 05:48:26 I guess I'm not digested then 05:48:40 that's why we have MORE BURGERS 05:49:06 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:50:16 Could someone please tell me if it is better to use #' or ' with :test as in (find "aoeu" (list "aoeu" "htns") :test 'string=) vs #'string= 05:50:24 *nyquist* is so hungry.. pony burger :/ 05:51:01 emacspha`: 'foo passes the symbol foo; #'foo passes the function referred to by the symbol foo. 05:51:18 matter of taste, some compilers might optimize #' better 05:51:53 <_3b> emacspha`: depends on which function you want to call 05:51:55 the difference gets more important for local functions. 05:53:35 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:53:43 *rahul* dances 05:53:49 I've created my excel-killer 05:54:13 except that it can't save, and it can't do the thing that really is what will kill excel 05:54:23 (objects) 05:54:35 well, it can't display the objects. it can create them :P 05:54:48 I notice in Pracial CL that Mr. S. uses #' and then just today I caught myself using ' and was a little surprised that it worked 05:55:10 emacspha`: look up "function designator" in the glossary for a little more info about that. 05:55:14 emacspha`: #' finds the function in the local lexical environment 05:55:35 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:55:38 ok, thanks everyone! 05:55:39 emacspha`: ' passes the symbol along and the function being called finds the definition in the global environment 05:56:11 right 05:56:25 emacspha`: also remember that #'foo expands to (function foo) and 'foo expands to (quote foo) 05:56:43 so you can look up those names to get a more detailed description of their behaviors 05:57:34 rahul: thanks again 05:59:34 I've been enjoying learning CL a lot so far... been taking a break from the Practical Common Lisp book and have been customizing the hell out of Emacs, which, of course, is not CL, but it is still Lisp and I think it's helping me get a feel 05:59:55 elisp is a "gateway lisp" 06:00:03 once you get hooked... 06:00:13 *madnificent* should learn elisp some time 06:00:32 madnificent: you will be horrified 06:00:40 I am completely hooked both on Lisp and emacs 06:00:40 madnificent: it only has dynamic scope 06:00:56 madnificent: and it has no packages or anything resembling them 06:00:59 elisp is easy, but all those markers, frames, and overlays, etc. 06:01:06 it remains the best language with which to customize emacs. 06:01:20 Xach: which is why I want to know it 06:01:26 and with (require 'cl) it's quite bearable 06:01:37 I don't think it's good for much more than customizing emacs, and to that purpose, it seems to work well 06:01:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:53 it's good for slime 06:02:04 it's really fascinating, the extent to which you can "hack into" Emacs 06:03:16 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:47 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:08:34 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:09:16 emacspha`: that's pretty typical for lisp applications 06:09:21 emacspha`: autocad is like that, too 06:09:52 *Xach* "hacks into" qres 06:09:54 well, it's typical as long as they expose EVAL 06:09:57 heh 06:10:19 I guess hack into is not the best wording, maybe hack up would be better 06:10:34 no, it's definitely going into the application 06:10:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:12:12 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:13:43 hmm 06:13:44 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:14:07 how are you supposed to structure your ACCEPT method if it in turn has multiple items to be ACCEPTed? 06:14:17 specifically, I'm doing a DEFCLASS as a CLIM command 06:14:41 so I am ACCEPTing a list of slot-specifications, each of which has a name, initform, etc 06:15:07 McCLIM seems to go apeshit when trying to enter those slot specifications 06:16:37 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:00 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 06:21:23 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:29:28 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has joined #lisp 06:30:20 c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has joined #lisp 06:31:13 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-69-221-161-162.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:33:40 -!- harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-70-8.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 06:35:39 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:39:06 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.97] has joined #lisp 06:40:31 Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-4-145.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:44:04 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:49:34 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:56:16 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:56:24 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:58:18 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-19-133.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:58:34 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has joined #lisp 07:00:45 c|mell: hello 07:01:20 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:02:26 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:04:18 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-35-12.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:05:14 -!- beach` is now known as beach 07:05:34 Good morning! 07:05:42 good morning beach 07:05:55 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:05 rahul: You could try accepting-values 07:08:11 clim accepting-values 07:08:12 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/26.html#_1364 07:09:19 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:29 maus [n=maus@222.253.95.14] has joined #lisp 07:10:46 hello 07:10:50 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 07:10:51 Hey maus 07:11:06 Hi beach :) 07:11:44 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:12:18 m4dnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 07:12:59 beach: how are you doing today? 07:13:02 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnim4dnificent 07:13:10 -!- madnim4dnificent is now known as m4dnificent 07:13:20 maus: Fine. This is a holiday in France, so I am not going to work today. 07:13:34 beach: you don't work on holidays? 07:13:48 maus: It's the armistice day in memory of the end of the first world war. 07:14:06 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBAE98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- highb [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- aking [n=aking@67.23.13.119] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-171-232.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:06 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl1218.nas924.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:14:10 m4dnificent: I didn't say that. I only said that I am not going to the university. 07:14:33 ah right :) 07:14:41 beach: ah.. 07:14:50 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:15:08 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:24 m4dnificent: But it's true that today I am going to spend more time learning Vietnamese than with my dayjob. 07:15:35 hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:43 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:15:43 qebab [i=finnrobi@129.241.56.185] has joined #lisp 07:15:43 highb [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #lisp 07:15:44 ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 07:15:45 pragma_ [n=pragma@66.179.240.113] has joined #lisp 07:15:49 aking [n=aking@67.23.13.119] has joined #lisp 07:15:52 beach: that's still productive 07:15:52 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 07:16:07 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has left #lisp 07:16:08 m4dnificent: True. 07:16:13 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest57529 07:16:18 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:16:34 morning lispers 07:16:40 hello kiuma 07:16:42 good morning kiuma 07:17:19 I have a class tomorrow and the teacher has my number, in that she goes much faster than she normally would. I am always totally wiped out at the end of each class, but I imagine I learn much faster that way. 07:17:45 m4dnificent, I added the syntax coloring to the email message editor of my claw site :) 07:17:59 beach: it is always good to push your limits 07:18:01 beach: how about your Vietnamese? It is good now? I can help you if you need :) 07:18:36 !!!!!!!!! 07:18:44 I got objects to display correctly 07:19:28 maus: Thanks. I can read pretty well. Listening is still very basic ("hello, how are you", "this is my friend Khanh", etc). Speaking is even worse. 07:19:30 kiuma: heh? I don't see any highlighting of code happening... 07:19:40 rahul: Congratulations! 07:20:25 beach: it's so amazing :) 07:20:29 ASau [n=user@host116-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:20:34 m4dnificent, are you still struggling with manardb? 07:20:44 m4dnificent: Yeah, I believe in the "diffusion" principle of learning: The learning speed is proportional to the difference in knowledge between the teacher and the student! :) 07:20:52 c|mell: yes 07:21:02 c|mell: I must say, I haven't spent that much time on it 07:21:30 c|mell: could you provide me with a complete example (create directory, create class, create object from class, close store, open and read from store ) ? 07:21:50 beach: nice one, never thought of that... 07:24:27 m4dnificent, (use-mmap-dir "/tmp/manardb/" :if-does-not-exist :create) (defdbclass one () (slot)) (open-all-mmaps) (make-instance 'one) (retrieve-all-instances 'one) 07:24:39 c|mell: will try, thanks :) 07:25:10 c|mell: I think use-mmap-dir gave me an error 07:25:55 -!- Guest57529 is now known as pragma_ 07:26:28 oof writing set slot value is getting tricky 07:26:35 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:26:40 c|mell: The value -134270976 is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 64) :( 07:26:52 ACCEPT is being messy, I think 07:27:17 c|mell: but that error originates from a call to osicat-posix:mmap, so the error is probably in there 07:27:38 m4dnificent, are you on 32-bit? 07:27:48 c|mell: no (problem?) 07:28:13 can you post a stack trace? 07:28:26 how do I see if my sbcl is 64 bit? or doesn't that matter? 07:29:13 <_3b> (integer-length most-positive-fixnum) ? 07:29:27 i think manardb is only tested on 64-bit 07:29:58 madnificent pasted "manardb" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90159 07:30:09 beach: different ways of learning help aswell. only doing one kind of exercises might slow down the learning. doing everything at the same time seems to be the most common way of solving this problem 07:30:09 I definitely can't get recursive accept to behave well, tho 07:30:32 _3b: 60 -> 64 bit? 07:30:39 <_3b> yeah 07:30:48 4 bits for the type? 07:31:07 guaqua: Do you mean specifically for learning a foreign language or just in general? 07:31:32 <_3b> m4dnificent: something like that 07:31:53 in general, i guess. my most 'graphic' learning experiences were from learning to send and receive morse code 07:31:59 <_3b> m4dnificent: possibly 1 of those is sign 07:31:59 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.95.14] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:32:07 ah right 07:32:18 egad that attempt was better, but still didn't work 07:32:38 the amount of practice it took, the methods to improve receiving speeds by listening to way too fast trasmissions etc 07:32:39 guaqua: Ah, yes, did that once as well. Very similar to learning a foreign language, but much easier of course. 07:32:42 <_3b> or possibly both sign and type in the case of fixnums 07:32:53 m4dnificent, sorry for being useless but it looks like there is something wrong with your osicat-posix -- is everything up to date? 07:33:28 beach: army or ham radio? 07:33:32 maus [n=maus@222.253.104.245] has joined #lisp 07:33:46 guaqua: But it's a great feeling when you start picking things up. Right now, when I listen to Vietnamese speech, from time to time I pick up a phrase, and the feeling is overwhelming. 07:33:50 c|mell: osicat-posix is not in my clbuild (contrary to my belief), so it might not be. Give me some time :) 07:33:57 guaqua: Army 07:34:11 beach: i'm actually learning portuguese from scratch right now :) 07:34:14 army for me too 07:34:31 *_3b* needs to start up language practice again :( 07:34:42 c|mell: it was named osicat in my clbuild and it seems to be up to date 07:35:52 guaqua: Good luck with the Portuguese. 07:36:40 beach: muito obrigado 07:37:00 c|mell: should it run only on sbcl? 07:37:08 m4dnificent, i guess your cffi etc. is very up to date as well -- and you are using the new sbcl that checks integer types more accurately 07:37:32 c|mell: 1.0.32 07:37:56 m4dnificent, it worked on sbcl, allegro 8.1, ccl with a patch to fix mop, and lispworks 5.1 iirc 07:40:01 m4dnificent, just to be clear you do have mremap (the syscall i added for manardb) in your osicat-posix? 07:40:02 what's McCLIM's nested accept separator? 07:40:11 there's comma and what else? 07:40:40 I thought it was semicolon, but that's not acting in any special way 07:40:52 c|mell: I have mremap in there, yes 07:41:14 c|mell: as well as mremap-fixed and mremap-maymove 07:42:11 m4dnificent, fair enough; i am trying it out 07:42:25 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:42:33 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 07:42:56 c|mell: ccl seems to crash on cffi-sys:make-pointer 07:44:11 m4dnificent, i have reproduced the issue with the wrong type on sbcl -- regarding ccl, which version? 07:44:23 reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has joined #lisp 07:44:58 c|mell: Version 1.3 (LinuxX8664) is what it tells me 07:46:04 m4dnificent, yes the osicat-posix is borked as it assumes that the return value from mmap is an :int when it is definitely a pointer 07:46:27 eno__ [n=eno@70.137.144.173] has joined #lisp 07:46:34 c|mell: can I quickly hack around it, or is it safe to assume that a bit of waiting will fix it too? 07:46:56 c|mell: btw thanks for sorting it out 07:47:24 clim define-presentation-translator 07:47:24 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-7.html#_1230 07:48:20 m4dnificent, in osicat-posix evaluate (DEFCFUN ("mmap_cffi_wrap" MMAP :CONVENTION :CDECL :LIBRARY :DEFAULT) (ERRNO-WRAPPER :UNSIGNED-LONG :ERROR-PREDICATE (LAMBDA (P) (= P MAP-FAILED)) :RETURN-FILTER MAKE-POINTER) (START :POINTER) (LENGTH SIZE) (PROT :INT) (FLAGS :INT) (FD FILE-DESCRIPTOR-DESIGNATOR) (OFFSET OFF)) 07:48:28 this should fix both bugs 07:50:26 c|mell pasted "manardb example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90161 07:51:23 c|mell:that seems to do the trick 07:51:25 thanks! 07:51:58 c|mell: I guess that will be incorporated in the osicat-posix library somewhere in the future? 07:52:05 m4dnificent, can you report this issue (mmap returns a pointer) to the osicat list? 07:52:25 they must have borked it in a new version 07:52:33 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:52:40 I don't really know what to tell about it, but I'll subscribe and send a message 07:53:13 thanks, if you just give the stack trace luis should see the obvious problem -- note than mremap is broken too 07:53:38 *c|mell* is travelling back to europe now and the internet here in the developing world is a pita 07:55:43 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:56:21 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:56:55 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:23 <_3b> hmm, prog1 doesn't quite do the job of multiple-value-prog1 07:58:36 hence the existence of the latter 07:58:47 <_3b> and hence the last few hours of debugging :( 07:58:58 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-102.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:59:39 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:14 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:02:55 c|mell: have a good trip 08:03:12 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:05:09 natto [n=natto@207-180-136-35.c3-0.sbo-ubr2.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:10 jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 08:06:10 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBAE98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:06:10 Bucciarati [n=buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:10 billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has joined #lisp 08:06:10 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:06:10 |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:10 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 08:06:10 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-171-232.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:10 trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 08:06:10 anekos [n=anekos@pl1218.nas924.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:08:39 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:09:26 morning... 08:10:35 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.102.121] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:12:13 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:12:17 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:15:15 -!- natto [n=natto@207-180-136-35.c3-0.sbo-ubr2.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 08:16:32 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:17:22 so close but yet so far 08:17:38 I can display an instance with all slots and values 08:17:54 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:18:11 but for some reason, when I want to set a slot value, the slot that's clicked on comes back with a quote in front 08:18:17 dastardly bastards. 08:18:41 and, my code gets ('(slot spec...)) 08:19:44 nunb [n=nundan@217.133.104.225] has joined #lisp 08:19:59 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:44 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has quit [] 08:23:04 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-102.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read 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["Leaving."] 09:10:27 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:10:55 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:11:10 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@67.170.34.23] has joined #lisp 09:11:44 -!- rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:12:25 rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:47 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:16:38 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 09:17:29 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:26:04 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 09:26:14 join #emacs 09:26:47 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has left #lisp 09:33:08 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 09:33:15 cyberhuman 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[n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:01:23 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:02:33 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:11 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-40-130.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:03:38 thatdavidmiller [n=thatdavi@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:07:59 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:08:25 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:08:53 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest96626 10:13:42 mstevens [n=mstevens@193.227.111.165] has joined #lisp 10:16:40 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.45] has joined #lisp 10:19:17 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.148] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:21:14 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@193.227.111.165] has quit ["leaving"] 10:25:34 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.99.140] has joined #lisp 10:27:01 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-160-244-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:30 is there a swap function 10:27:36 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:27:45 <_3b> clhs rotatef 10:27:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rotate.htm 10:28:56 sadly, rotatef is a macro 10:29:12 -!- Guest96626 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 10:29:40 _3b cheers 10:29:43 <_3b> (lambda (a b) (values b a)) ? 10:29:46 a macro will be fine 10:33:52 Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 10:35:44 russell_ [n=russell_@bonneville.tdb.com] has joined #lisp 10:36:40 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:40:19 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@216.239.82.171] has joined #lisp 10:40:21 -!- lukjad007 is now known as Guest96639 10:41:08 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 10:41:22 i have a function numerate-string that takes a string as an argument, and if it reads as a number, returns the number, otherwise it returns the string again. unfortunately, it is excessively fragile, and breaks. 10:41:26 -!- Guest96639 [n=lukjadOO@216.239.82.171] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41:59 Guest79300 [n=lukjadOO@ip216-239-82-171.vif.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:49 <_3b> minion: tell russell_ about parse-number 10:42:51 russell_: please see parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 10:43:21 -!- Guest79300 [n=lukjadOO@ip216-239-82-171.vif.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:33 that sounds promising 10:43:33 or parse-integer for only integer case 10:43:37 clhs parse-integer 10:43:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm 10:43:43 thx 10:44:03 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:46:16 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:49:00 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:50:04 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 10:50:38 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:53:26 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 10:54:19 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:54:32 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 10:58:10 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B860.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:22 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:59:00 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:01:18 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:03:18 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 11:03:18 -!- eihrul [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:03:49 i have (setf (funcall element normal) s), it complains that i am trying to setf funcall, is that really what i am doing here? 11:04:05 element is an accessor function 11:04:25 eihrul [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:39 Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.68.11] has joined #lisp 11:06:47 you can't do that 11:07:32 you can do (funcall (setf element) new-value object), but you need to know the accessor's name 11:07:51 Xof i have a list of the accessor names 11:08:01 you need to put the accessor's name in your source code 11:08:02 thats where element comes from, its in a dolist 11:08:34 ok, then you can (funcall (fdefinition `(setf ,element)) new-value object), but frankly this sounds like you're doing something wrong 11:09:08 if your accessors have the same names as your slots, maybe you should be doing (setf (slot-value object element) new-value) 11:10:53 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066b60.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:55 hello 11:11:53 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:16 i have structs for 2D vectors, and i need to do similar operations on each element of the vector, there for i decided to use a list of the vector accessors and iterate over that 11:13:07 i doing it on multiple vectors as well, doing operations on x of a b & c then of y on a b & c 11:13:33 *on y of 11:14:17 well, you can either pass the accessor functions to your function rather than just the names of slots 11:14:25 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 11:14:43 or else you can write a macro to write the unrolled code for you at macroexpand time 11:17:42 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:18:18 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:19:04 Xof cheers 11:19:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 11:19:58 hello 11:21:48 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["restarting emacs"] 11:22:02 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:22:19 nipra_ [n=nipra@117.195.101.49] has joined #lisp 11:23:51 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:25:21 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25:50 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.222.245] has joined #lisp 11:30:20 Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:34:14 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-19-133.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:34:33 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-19-133.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:37:58 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.99.140] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:38:10 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:40:20 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:41:44 hey guys 11:41:58 wait 11:42:41 yeah 11:42:44 >_> 11:42:54 how do I get format to left-pad a float with spaces to a specified width? 11:43:06 clhs ~D 11:43:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbb.htm 11:43:38 ehh wrong numerical format control 11:43:43 clhs ~F 11:43:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cca.htm 11:44:09 clhs ~R 11:44:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cba.htm 11:46:14 Adlai: that's what I was doing and it wasn't working 11:46:23 oh, float, yeah 11:46:38 what format string were you using? 11:46:40 serichsen: ~r isn't useful at all >_> 11:46:44 Adlai: ~4,2f 11:46:56 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.4.102] has joined #lisp 11:48:49 oh, I see why 11:48:58 the decimal point is taking a space 11:49:10 that wasn't it :P 11:49:11 it's solved 11:49:23 ok 11:50:07 width is the entire width 11:50:28 serichsen: yes, that was the issue. 11:52:42 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:53:21 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@81.84.206.229] has joined #lisp 11:57:06 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:40 manuel_ 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Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:22:10 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:22:39 -!- GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:39 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@c-76-23-34-5.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:54 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:27:17 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-74-209-25-128.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:50 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 12:32:05 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBAE98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:32:22 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAE98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:32:33 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAE98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:34:07 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:34:55 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:35:14 Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has joined #lisp 12:36:23 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:37:24 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:38:17 -!- trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:38:43 trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:39:43 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:20 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-135-43.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:42:12 I'd like to play with GECO, for genetic algorithms, but the Postscript documentation, which was stored elsewhere than the source code, is not reachable anymore... 12:43:09 sellout [n=greg@24.61.12.76] has joined #lisp 12:43:52 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-17-35.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:14 madnificent: BTW, CCL 1.4 is out now, not a bad idea to upgrade :) 12:45:20 flatline [n=flatline@z166195.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:45:58 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:46:46 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-180-165.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:47:31 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.104.245] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:49:44 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:51:14 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:52:42 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:53:18 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:53:36 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 12:53:39 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:54:31 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:48 gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 12:55:19 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442618.dsl.bell.ca] 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#lisp 13:44:43 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:44:56 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:45:39 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:19 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-71-211.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:50:11 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:54:29 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-cexixmimxduicedl] has joined #lisp 13:56:04 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:56:04 What's the best way to implement a function analogous to package-used-by-list but for systems? 13:56:07 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:56:23 i.e. I want to find out all the systems depending on a particular system 13:56:36 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:56:54 hello 13:57:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has joined #lisp 13:58:46 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:13 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:59:40 trittweiler: you so want to write "asdf-who-depends-on", right? 13:59:41 Do you already have an implementation of the reverse operation, "asdf-dependencies-of"? 14:00:24 Personally, I'm not even certain how to implement "asdf-dependencies-of" correctly. clbuild does it, but it's a mess. I don't get all the IN-ORDER-TO stuff. There must be an easier way. 14:00:46 joswig [n=joswig@g224121124.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:59 Actually I didn't want to do that but it's a fine idea 14:01:05 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:02:01 hi all 14:02:07 hi nikodemus! 14:02:07 hi nikodemus 14:04:06 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-69-221-161-162.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:03 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:38 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:16 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:10:45 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177144247.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:11 -!- Guest28110 is now known as lemoinem 14:11:41 -!- lemoinem is now known as Guest40892 14:12:13 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:13:00 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 14:13:02 -!- Guest40892 is now known as lemoinem 14:13:53 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:14:24 -!- Guest2832 is now known as Ginei_Morioka 14:14:44 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:45 -!- rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:19:10 rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:33 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:26:04 -!- joswig [n=joswig@g224121124.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:28 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:26 whee github 14:30:29 c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has joined #lisp 14:31:08 -!- luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:48 luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 14:32:50 c|mell: arrived? 14:33:15 -!- ve [n=a@cpat002.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:17 froydnj: github is handy 14:33:53 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 14:34:31 -!- sellout [n=greg@24.61.12.76] has quit [] 14:35:29 longkid [n=longkid@58.186.227.155] has joined #lisp 14:37:07 -!- longkid [n=longkid@58.186.227.155] has quit [Client Quit] 14:37:38 madnificent, certainly not, another month or so to go i think -- now about halfway: in yerevan, armenia 14:37:55 oh, nice trip :D 14:39:42 longkid [n=longkid@58.186.227.155] has joined #lisp 14:40:22 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 14:41:15 hello 14:41:42 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 14:42:21 Is there anyone used to program Sudoku game? 14:42:53 longkid: Do you want the same answer as last time or a new answer? 14:43:18 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:43:50 longkid: http://skas-blog.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-06%3A00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-06%3A00&max-results=13 14:44:09 G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.101.49] has joined #lisp 14:44:20 Xach: you already introduce peter to me, but i don't see him in the list 14:44:38 -!- G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.101.49] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:44:42 longkid: http://www.google.com/search?q=peter+norvig+sudoku 14:45:25 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.17.20] has joined #lisp 14:45:31 Xach: thanks a lot 14:45:38 but hey, try the same thing again and the result will surely be all different! 14:45:55 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 14:46:10 -!- nipra_ [n=nipra@117.195.101.49] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:17 gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 14:46:28 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:47:55 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:06 *c|mell* made a sudoku solver in python once 14:48:11 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-71-211.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 14:48:31 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Success] 14:48:36 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:50:06 i wanted to try to find rules that would eliminate trial and error, but the problem is np complete (in the size of the board), and there were always some harder problems that needed the guess mode 14:50:24 ve [n=a@cpat002.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:52:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:02 Xach: do you know how to create environment for developing lisp program in Ubuntu? 14:54:27 Xof: What is your opinion on making (declare (values ...)) in defgeneric forms insert return-value checks? 14:55:00 longkid: Install clisp? 14:55:42 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:57:31 Vonunov: I know how to use slime, but i don't know how to install it. 14:57:56 longkid: yes, I do. 14:58:15 longkid: I get "upstream" from http://random-state.net/files/upstream-1.1.tar.gz 14:58:38 longkid: then i use "clnet slime" to check out slime, and add it to my emacs setup. then i get a sbcl binary from www.sbcl.org and install it. 14:58:56 i usually add "sfnet sbcl" and recompile sbcl with thread support. 14:59:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:59:12 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:59 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442618.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:01:00 gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:01:10 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442618.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:01:47 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.222.245] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:02:53 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:02:53 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:04:02 nipra_ [n=nipra@117.195.97.235] has joined #lisp 15:04:19 gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:04:56 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:05:06 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:08:05 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:08:21 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:08:29 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@81.84.206.229] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 15:09:12 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:15 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:11:31 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:13:51 ryepup: someone dragged you into the indian ocean :( 15:13:51 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:14:02 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:14:40 overdrive [n=user@81.202.77.182.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:40 Xach: I think it happens by accident because of the extremely bad client 15:15:03 one belgian user keeps disappearing (don't know where he goes to though) 15:15:21 Didier went to Brazil 15:15:21 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:15:37 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:16:30 hmm 15:17:13 minion: memo for stassats: If you have some time, I'd be rather grateful for an M-x slime-isearch-system 15:17:13 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:13 Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 15:17:18 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:17:35 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@81.84.206.229] has joined #lisp 15:17:45 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@81.84.206.229] has quit [Client Quit] 15:20:17 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:28 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:20:54 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:16 gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:22:25 gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:22:33 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:56 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:11 Guthur [i=c13dbf02@gateway/web/freenode/x-iptzkxwskfslykpq] has joined #lisp 15:23:21 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 15:24:10 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:24:20 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:51 gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:26:28 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:31 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:32 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:27:45 gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 15:27:51 longkid: have you been able to setup your environment? 15:30:49 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:02 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:33:55 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:36:41 Xach: how unfortunate. 15:36:43 the happy lisper is back :) 15:37:52 madnificent: b/c i'm not familiar with Linux, so i'll investigate to setup Emacs 15:38:33 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:39:00 longkid: a possible alternative is to setup clbuild and run clbuild slime to give you an emacs with slime in it 15:39:48 -!- Kolyan[away] is now known as Kolyan 15:41:59 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:39 madnificent: i'll try to setup clbuild 15:44:09 longkid: If you are using Ubuntu, installing Emacs is just a matter of doing "sudo apt-get install emacs" or something like that. 15:44:53 beach: hi prof. 15:45:04 longkid: Hello! 15:45:16 beach: i'll try to setup Emacs 15:45:46 will ever be thread support for sbcl on windows ? 15:46:45 *multitreading 15:46:51 +h 15:48:45 are make-load-form and make-load-form-saving-slots something people generally use? 15:48:46 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:49:04 longkid: What is it that you want to know about Sudoku that I haven't already told you? 15:49:17 I like the idea of an easy clone function, but it looks like I need to (eval (make-load-form ...)) and I don't think I should eval 15:50:32 It's used for its purpose -- which cloning is not 15:51:09 beach: i've already know how to create initial board (solution) 15:51:12 longkid: The Norvig site is about solving any sodoku puzzle, but what you want to do is to generate games that can be solved by humans using no backtracking and a fixed number of strategies. 15:51:28 longkid: How do you do it? 15:51:53 longkid: Oh, the solution. Sure, that's not too hard. 15:51:55 beach: however, i'm having trouble with creating a partial board 15:52:11 beach: the problem is that 15:52:28 is today a holiday or something in states? 15:52:55 it's a holiday in much of Yerp 15:52:57 (hi) 15:53:14 Xof: Hello! 15:53:22 oh, i'm just clueless as usual :) 15:53:28 (hi!) 15:53:40 what is "Yerp"? 15:53:47 Europe 15:53:53 ugh -_- 15:53:54 sorry I think I already asked monthes ago, but is there a library to generate html colorized and indented lisp code as paste.lisp.org does ? 15:54:07 serichsen: as in Yerpeans and Murkins. 15:54:12 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:54:29 beach: check if there is a unit that some strategy can be applied to 15:54:33 more ugh 15:54:48 longkid: What is the problem with that? 15:55:06 kiuma: lisp library? 15:55:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has quit [] 15:55:28 asdf system or code :) 15:55:43 beach: Wait a minute, i'll explain my problem 15:56:10 kiuma: I mean, does it have to be lisp? 15:56:43 no even javascript 15:57:02 kiuma: there is e.g. prettify.js (by Google, I think), which has a Lisp mode (if you can enable it, unlike stupid stackoverflow.com) 15:57:25 kiuma: you could try to find out what paste.lisp.org uses. 15:57:31 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:55 gah, whitespace damage 15:57:57 Hello all. 15:58:04 hello nyef 15:58:09 hello, nyef 15:59:11 kiuma: The source for what's actually running on paste.lisp.org is (or was) available for browsing via the system-server on paste.lisp.org, and might be in the lisppaste source control. 15:59:55 found :) http://www.cliki.net/colorize 15:59:58 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:25 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf02@gateway/web/freenode/x-iptzkxwskfslykpq] has quit ["Page closed"] 16:01:00 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:26 longkid: So what's the problem? 16:05:42 beach: in previous email, you said the rules 16:05:54 Yes. 16:06:04 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 16:06:11 beach: There are 5 rules 16:06:24 longkid: Are you talking about the "strategies"? 16:06:52 beach: First rule:" If there is only one empty slot in a unit (row, column or square), then the symbol that goes there is the only one that does not already appear in that unit." 16:07:00 -!- ASau [n=user@host116-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 16:07:12 longkid: sounds plausible, yes. 16:07:29 Sudoku? 16:07:36 nyef: Yes. 16:07:36 Maddas [n=mz@74.125.121.33] has joined #lisp 16:08:23 beach: so, those rules are also the strategies 16:08:30 beach: right? 16:08:42 I suppose so, yes. 16:08:49 ok 16:09:05 nyef: longkid, vng, maus and some others are working on learning Common Lisp, and for practice they are programming a Sudoku game. 16:09:23 Ahh. Cool. 16:09:51 beach: are you teaching them, or helping them? 16:10:08 madnificent: Both. 16:10:24 so, with a partial board, i'll use these rules to find out solution for a hole. Right? 16:10:24 ah, so we shouldn't help them solving it too much? 16:11:06 longkid: No, not for a particular empty slot. You need to see whether you can solve the entire board using repeated applications of the strategies. 16:11:47 longkid: So a strategy applies to a "unit", i.e, a row, a column, or a small square. 16:12:00 yes 16:13:03 beach: u mean that 5 rules apply to a "unit", i.e, a row, a column, or a small square 16:13:14 Ugh. I'm reading up on "speaker recognition", and I found a page which says "there are about three areas where speaker recognition techniques can be of use. These are authentication, surveillance and forensic speaker recognition." and it's so obviously easy to come up with more applications but the page seems to imply that there aren't more. 16:13:14 -!- blandest [n=blandest@85.204.33.242] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:13:35 longkid: Each of the five strategies is to be applied to such a unit, yes. 16:13:41 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:53 longkid: It may or may not be applicable to certain units of course. 16:13:55 (An obvious case: automatic closed-captioning.) 16:14:35 sellout [n=greg@64.243.27.4] has joined #lisp 16:14:47 beach: so, the 1st thing we have to do is creating a solution 16:15:06 longkid: Yes, and I told you how to do that too, right? 16:15:29 beach: yes 16:15:48 beach: next we'll erase some symbols 16:16:18 longkid: One at a time. 16:16:26 longkid: And try to solve the remaining board. 16:16:54 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:03 beach: what will we use to solve the remaining board? 16:17:16 longkid: Repeated application of the strategies. 16:17:48 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:18:10 beach: 1. If we have a solution, stop with success. 16:18:10  2. If not, check if there is a unit that some strategy can be 16:18:10     applied to. 16:18:10  3. If no such unit can be found, then the partial board we have is 16:18:10     not a game, so stop with failure. 16:18:11  4. If such a unit and such a strategy can be found, apply the 16:18:12 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-225.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 16:18:13     strategy to the unit, and repeat from 1. 16:18:30 beach: is that repeated application? 16:18:37 longkid: Yes. 16:19:04 beach: let me see 16:19:41 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 16:19:59 Any interesting lisp blogs that is not on planet.lisp.org? 16:20:42 beach: OK. So, there are 5 strategies to check if there is a unit that some strategy can be applied to 16:20:51 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:20:52 longkid: Yes. 16:22:22 osaunders [n=osaunder@78.147.143.143] has joined #lisp 16:22:31 -!- osaunders [n=osaunder@78.147.143.143] has left #lisp 16:22:40 osaunders [n=osaunder@78.147.143.143] has joined #lisp 16:22:45 beach: whenever I erase a symbol, I have to solve the remaining board. Right? 16:23:07 Has anyone heard of a lisp that uses trees instead of lists to represent code? 16:23:23 longkid: Yes, or at least attempt to. If you can solve it, that symbol is fine to erase. If you can't then you must try erasing a different symbol. 16:23:41 osaunders: Then it wouldn't be Lisp would it? 16:24:04 beach: Perhaps not. 16:24:13 osaunders: If you don't agree, you have to define what you mean with "a lisp". 16:24:40 gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 16:24:50 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:24:54 osaunders: it is pretty much a tree, isn't it 16:24:55 I'd want to know what osaunders is defining as "trees." I usually think of lisp code as being trees 16:24:55 beach: OK, let me rephrase: Has anyone heard of a programming language that uses trees instead of lists to represent code? 16:25:17 osaunders: Most programming languages don't specify how code is represented. 16:25:29 pretty much all languages get converted to AST at some point 16:25:35 beach: Yes, this would be a homoiconic language. 16:25:40 Even those that do specify a code representation might use different terminology for the same things. 16:25:50 osaunders: A lot of implementation of such languages would use different structures, probably most of them in fact. 16:25:52 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.154.119] has left #lisp 16:26:04 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:26:08 dlowe: There are some important differences. First one that comes to mind is that a tree is a traversable graph and lists are not. 16:26:18 ? 16:26:35 I traverse lists all the time (or my code does). 16:26:44 OK that was badly phrased. 16:26:49 acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has joined #lisp 16:26:50 osaunders: (a b c d e f) is a list, (a (b c) (d (e f))) is a tree 16:27:26 If I get a reference to a member of a list 16:27:29 rullie: The latter is also a (nested) list. The former is also (a very flat) tree. 16:27:31 osaunders: I still have no clue what you're thinking 16:27:42 I cannot call some function that returns the next or previous member. 16:27:57 osaunders: You can't with some trees either. 16:28:09 Oh well those trees are lame then :-) 16:28:09 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-102.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 16:28:19 osaunders: If I have a cons, I can call CDR on the cons to get the next cons in the list 16:28:40 osaunders: Lame? Say better, optimized for random lookup instead of sequential lookup. 16:28:48 dlowe: But you have to have a reference to the whole list in order to do that. 16:29:09 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:29:13 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 16:29:21 osaunders: that's sensible if I don't want to embed my list data into my member data. 16:29:21 nyef: Yes. You guys say things better than I do. 16:29:22 osaunders: Perhaps it is time for you to tell us what your *real* question is! 16:29:57 -!- ve [n=a@cpat002.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:30:08 beach: No real question. I'm creating a new language I'm just curious as to whether its an original idea or not. 16:30:22 ve [n=a@cpat002.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:30:27 Seems like it might be. 16:30:43 To use trees for representing the code? No, I don't think so. 16:30:44 beach: Suppose that we erase n symbols. So after finding out n slots that we can erase, we finish creating a game. Right? 16:30:49 The answer to that question is often enough no that it's safe to assume it 16:31:23 but hey, why not try it. I don't see the advantage, but that doesn't mean there isn't one 16:31:28 Alright well, thank you for your time. 16:31:37 longkid: Nope, you erase symbols until no symbol can be erased and the remaining board can still be solved. 16:31:39 If I'm on to something you might hear from me again. 16:31:57 osaunders: Check out the book by Muchnick. 16:32:08 osaunders: i think a language we desperately need is one that can nicely map requirements to code 16:33:03 Pointed noted. 16:33:07 *points 16:33:11 -!- osaunders [n=osaunder@78.147.143.143] has left #lisp 16:33:20 beach: but that's so difficult. B/c we don't know when we will erase the last symbol 16:33:58 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-74-209-25-128.taconic.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:59 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:34:17 longkid: It is not difficult. Try to apply every strategy to the board. If none applies, then you have erased one symbol too many. Put back the last one you erased and you have an initial board. 16:34:24 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 16:36:28 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["brb"] 16:36:33 beach: But u told me that If I can't erase a symbol, I must try erasing a different symbol. 16:36:56 beach: Not putting back the last one I erased 16:37:12 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 16:38:44 longkid: repeat for each nonempty slot: try to erase the symbol in it and solve the board. If you find a slot that you can erase and still solve the board, stop the loop and start it over. If you cannot find such a symbol, you have erased one too many. 16:41:16 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:45 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:42:45 gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 16:44:21 beach: So we have try to erase symbols as much as possible 16:44:30 longkid: Yes. 16:45:49 beach: I don't understand the algorithm written by Bien, although I've read it many times. 16:45:59 mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:45:59 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:18 nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:21 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:32 beach: so i'll do according to your instruction 16:48:22 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.17.20] has quit [] 16:48:42 longkid: This algorithm was in my mail of October 17. 16:49:24 beach: yes, I've already read it 16:49:42 longkid: But there was something in it that you didn't understand? 16:49:52 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-74-209-25-128.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:14 *rahul* ponders releasing formulate 0.2 16:50:42 beach: now, i understood almost all 16:51:00 -!- srcerer__ is now known as srcerer 16:51:16 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:25 longkid: Hmm, so where did you get the idea of erasing n symbols? That is not in my algorithm. 16:51:31 gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 16:52:22 beach: ideas are funny things, they can appear out of nowhere ;) 16:52:45 serichsen: I'd disagree, but only half for the sake of disagreeing. 16:53:07 -!- colin__ [n=colin@118-169-36-66.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [""] 16:53:10 they certainly SEEM to 16:53:17 beach: the idea of erasing n symbols is in Bien's algorithm 16:53:18 nyef: okok, "nowhere" may be an exaggeration 16:53:33 longkid: Have I seen that? 16:53:39 see also: Emperor's New Mind and Zen and the art of MM 16:53:52 Zen and the art of Memory Management? 16:53:59 nyef: you wish 16:54:02 beach: let me check code again 16:54:07 longkid: Oh, yes I did. And I said it was not right. 16:54:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:54:22 rahul: I dunno, Zen and the art of Garbage Collection might be amusing as well. 16:54:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@64.243.27.4] has quit [] 16:54:37 nyef: well, hurry up and write them! 16:55:05 not sure there are many people more qualified than you for either one :) 16:55:58 Bah. I actually have very little experience with the GC side of things. 16:57:02 So, horrible thought: If GENESIS is the creation of a new cold-core image, is EXODUS the bootstrapping from there to a REPL? 16:57:16 hmm 16:57:30 that would be Moses and the art... but it's an interesting idea 16:57:37 longkid: Right, he submitted his code on October 12, and I told him to resubmit after fixing superficial problems. I don't think he ever did. And then I wrote the algorithm above, because his was not right. 16:58:30 nyef: Numbers could be the GC 16:59:16 beach: his code on Oct 29, there was a line: defun init-board (a level b) 16:59:39 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:59:47 I guess Leviticus is the REPL itself 17:00:02 and Deuteronomy is LDB? 17:00:04 beach: 'level' describes the blank square for player play 17:00:53 nah, Deuteronomy would be the normal debugger, since they recover 17:01:06 beach: he mean that 'level' determines the difficulty level of game 17:01:10 LDB would be more like Revelations :P 17:01:12 longkid: I see. 17:01:48 beach: however I think that is not right 17:01:48 longkid: But as I have written as well, the difficulty should determine what strategies are to be used. 17:02:13 ok colorize does the html colorizing dirty work, but how can I format/indent a string representing a CL form ? 17:02:28 kiuma: uh, emacs? 17:02:34 kiuma: emacs can export to html 17:02:37 beach: OK. And one more thing 17:02:42 no via CL code 17:03:05 kiuma: what do you mean? 17:03:14 I need to create CLAW online manual 17:03:14 you want CL code that indents CL code? 17:03:36 rahul, yes passed as a string 17:03:43 well, you can use emacs to format the code 17:03:59 rahul, I don't want to use emacs!!! 17:04:00 you might be able to use slime to send the html to CL 17:04:09 look www.wingstech.it 17:04:15 this is made in claw 17:04:28 pprint? 17:04:32 I understand you don't WANT to use emacs for it, but I don't know of any highlighting code in CL 17:04:40 pprint gets pathological 17:04:52 defdoc will have a _good_ pprinter based on knuth's algo 17:04:53 nikodemus, yea pprint :) 17:05:01 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:07 defdoc ? 17:05:09 yeah, but if it's broken you can just blame it being pprint :) 17:05:13 defdoc has been vapourware for the best part of a decade 17:05:15 beach: about creating a solution, if we use the method u say, maybe it's hard to avoid creating a new board like some previous board 17:05:24 it's worth not taking rahul's suggestions too seriously 17:05:34 so pprinit ? 17:06:25 longkid: No, you can do that many different ways. You can start with different solved boards (obtained by the transformations I wrote about), and when you loop over all nonempty slots, randomize the order first. 17:06:34 oh, bah, nikodemus has inserted a commit in my beautifully arranged sequence 17:07:19 rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-151-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:03 -!- rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has left #lisp 17:08:05 Xof: must commit faster 17:08:07 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:42 Oh, right, that reminds me... The fix for fasdumping functions with literal structs in the arglist. 17:09:00 pprint gets into horrid situations with pretty much any code I've tried 17:09:02 but pprint works with forms I need to work with strings (at least not evaluate the string since it will be passed from a http parameter) 17:09:12 (except for cases that carefully avoid its problems) 17:09:32 coyo [i=alex@144.162.134.38] has joined #lisp 17:09:36 gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 17:09:42 beach: firstly, i have to start with a solution. After that, i apply the transformations to that solution. However, I afraid that creating a same board with the same steps of transformations 17:09:50 kiuma: you need to parse the string before you can figure out how to wrap and indent it, anyway 17:10:00 ericjames [n=ericjeld@205.149.71.84] has joined #lisp 17:10:01 longkid: No, you randomize the transformations too. 17:10:05 but that's why I'm writing generic-reader... 17:10:05 froydnj: I got hit by whitespace dammage 17:10:07 "damage", even 17:10:26 beach: i've already think of that 17:10:34 longkid: Take for instance the transformation that creates a permutation of all the symbols. 17:10:44 timor [n=martin@drsd-4dbd865c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:24 longkid: By randomizing that permutation you get 9! = 362880 different boards. 17:12:02 beach: i can't get the previous message 17:12:28 beach: take for... :??? 17:12:38 longkid: One of the transformations that take a valid solution and creates another valid solution is to create a permutation of the symbols. 17:12:59 longkid: OK so far? 17:13:10 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E2E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:46 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:52 beach: OK. Go ahead 17:14:03 actually, getting defdoc to format code isn't too hard 17:14:18 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:36 longkid: How many permutations are there of 9 symbols? Answer 9! (nine factorial) which is 362880. 17:14:55 longkid: This was in my mail of October 25. 17:14:56 you just need to make the page width 80 +/- 20 characters and drop in a bunch of penalties for breaking at the various spots in the forms 17:15:10 peri4n [n=peri4n@77-64-173-45.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:30 Xof: did you mean to deliberately change the type of {octets,string}-to-{string,octets}-fun in the external-format structure definition? 17:15:41 you'd still need to parse the code... 17:15:55 froydnj: yes 17:16:02 *froydnj* reads a little further, sees Xof's cleverness 17:16:11 you still get your nice "I can redefine the octets function symbol" behaviour 17:16:19 but I need to wrap and store functions not symbols 17:16:23 how can I make load from string to write symbols lowercase ? 17:16:34 oh wait, it looks like generic-reader has most of the code 17:16:43 Xof: I approve 17:17:01 kiuma: read doesn't write. use *print-case* around your pprint call 17:17:27 froydnj: lucky I got all that careful review from my various requests :-) 17:17:30 beach: OK. I know how to do now. 17:17:40 Xof: /hides in shame 17:17:40 rahul, thx again 17:17:52 longkid: Excellent! 17:18:04 *froydnj* watches babel-folk complain more about how sbcl's octet functions are slow 17:18:07 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:18:22 gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 17:18:38 beach: of course i'll have trouble with erasing symbols. At that time, i'll discuss more 17:19:00 great I've all the elements now :) 17:19:17 beach: thanks for your thorough explanation 17:19:22 longkid: OK, but erasing a symbol just means replacing a set of possibilities containing a single symbol by a set containing all symbols. 17:19:29 longkid: No problem. Good luck. 17:19:31 kiuma: you want to bind *read-eval* to nil, and *print-circle* to t 17:20:00 ahh great! 17:20:01 kiuma: I thought you wanted to colorize the code, tho... 17:20:22 froydnj: yep; I think the docs for flexi-streams also sneers at sbcl's octet functions 17:20:32 also, but colorize tool does it pretty well 17:20:52 oh, you can feed it to that once you've indented it nicely 17:20:58 (which pprint rarely does) 17:21:17 yes it what I want to do 17:22:05 then I'll use a running instance of CLAW to write manual with CL samples directly from the site 17:22:20 /j go-nuts 17:22:25 or you can use whatever lisppaste uses and get something even more awesome 17:23:10 rahul, take a look at http://www.wingstech.it/claw/site/writeus.html 17:23:13 beach: u mean that when erasing a symbol, we can find out many solution for the remaining board. Right? 17:23:18 sellout [n=greg@64.243.27.4] has joined #lisp 17:23:24 it will have a similar L&F 17:23:58 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:24:16 I will be able to dinamically create pages, chapters and code snippets 17:24:32 in a CRUD way 17:24:34 kiuma: sure but the lisppaste code will do a better job of colorizing, I mean 17:24:36 of course 17:24:48 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-75-2.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 17:24:50 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-71-211.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:24:56 I assume it's written in CL, too 17:25:00 lisppast uses colirize 17:25:06 oh, it's called tat 17:25:09 colorize 17:25:12 yeah 17:25:16 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:25:17 longkid: Not quite. What I mean is that if you use the representation that I wrote to you about, i.e. where each slot contains a set of possible symbols, then a nonblank slot is just a slot where that set has a single element in it. And "erasing a symbol" just means making that set contain all possible symbols. 17:25:25 there's also a C program called that 17:25:34 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:25:34 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:25:46 no it's the one from cliki 17:25:49 :) 17:26:08 longkid: If there are several possible solutions, then no strategy applies. 17:26:46 longkid: Er, that's not true. Rather: if there are several possible solutions, then the board cannot be solved by repeated applications of the strategies. 17:26:54 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:26:59 rsynnott: I don't see any sneering. 17:27:08 gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 17:27:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:27:30 edi is a scholar and a gentleman 17:27:42 only people young enough to do IRC sneer 17:27:52 (go 31-year-olds) 17:28:33 ah, it may not have been in the actual docs. I certainly remember someone-or-other being very smug about how much faster their octet functions were than sbcl's 17:28:54 may not have been flexi-streams, actually; there are other such libs 17:28:54 well, now we have functionality that explains the slowness! 17:29:07 trivial-utf8 had some complaints about sbcl, iirc. 17:29:17 i don't remember if it was sneerish or just exasperated 17:29:25 admittedly not the functionality that people actually ask for (line-ending...) but even so 17:30:25 Xach: the octets utf-8 stuff in sbcl is simultaneously unreadable and (I think) overly general 17:30:32 I can also believe that it is slow, though I've never measured it 17:30:33 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-19-133.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:50 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-19-133.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:31:27 can pprint outputs to a string ? 17:31:49 beach: OK. I see. By using repeated applications, i'll find out a unique solution for a partial board. 17:31:58 *output 17:32:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@64.243.27.4] has quit [] 17:32:03 clhs w-o-t-s 17:32:03 kiuma: with-string-as-output :) 17:32:03 WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm 17:32:03 stassats, memo from trittweiler: If you have some time, I'd be rather grateful for an M-x slime-isearch-system 17:32:08 or that :p 17:32:17 longkid: Yes, unless such a solution cannot be obtained because you erased too many symbols. 17:32:18 dlowe, ok 17:32:32 *dlowe* guess wrong on that about 50% of the time 17:32:40 beach: Of course 17:33:17 -!- timor [n=martin@drsd-4dbd865c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:33:24 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314032.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:33:24 beach: It's over midnight. I sleep now. :) 17:33:35 longkid: Yes, good night! 17:33:49 -!- silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:15 beach: thanks. bye bye 17:34:41 -!- longkid [n=longkid@58.186.227.155] has left #lisp 17:34:59 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:49 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:35:54 gz__ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 17:36:27 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:37:33 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:40:04 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:04 -!- salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:25 salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:53 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:29 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:44:26 -!- gz__ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:44:40 gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 17:44:46 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E2E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 17:45:15 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:07 redblue [i=star@ppp184.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:48:27 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:54 Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 17:53:11 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:53:13 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@205.149.71.84] has quit [] 17:53:26 gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 17:53:41 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:49 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:03 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:56:07 -!- gz_ is now known as gz 17:56:14 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:56:15 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:56:31 seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-126-240.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:50 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-165-139.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:06 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 17:57:39 sellout [n=greg@24.61.12.76] has joined #lisp 18:00:28 midnight? you have students in asia? 18:01:20 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:01:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:29 vietnam 18:02:57 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 18:03:36 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-234-193.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:03:57 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-71-211.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:04:13 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:06:08 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314032.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 18:06:48 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:09:50 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:35 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:19 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 18:12:56 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:13:51 psc_bw [n=psc_bw@vpn.breakwater.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:11 serichsen: We have a branch of our masters program in Ho Chi Minh City. 18:17:12 francogrex [n=user@41.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:18:54 -!- pickles [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:11 that city is crazy 18:20:50 ok, sbcl folks, that's your lot for now 18:20:59 Xof: hooray, els! is there a website? 18:21:04 no 18:21:12 I am one web coder short of a conference website 18:21:18 *Xach* will link to one when it is ready 18:21:21 thanks 18:21:27 Hi all, I am assigned at work to write a validation precedure 18:21:42 I hope you appreciate that I have returned from my self-imposed exile from comp.lang.lisp 18:21:49 who will validate the validator 18:22:01 where are all the red carpet posts like when Kent comes back, eh? eh? Instead I get patronized by Kaz 18:22:03 Xof: that's a brave step 18:22:13 heh 18:22:13 I am taking as an example of general programming reccommendations, something written by Norvig 18:22:31 -!- salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:35 francogrex: his recommendations are great 18:23:02 rahul: yes I know but I am having troouble with this one (my collegues didn't like it): 18:23:10 stupid linux won't re-read my partition table, and I've umounted and swapoffed all the partitoins on that disk! 18:23:21 Specificity: If the same result can be obtained using different methods use the most specific (for example, use if for a two branch statement even though the conditional when may return a correct result; use and / or for Boolean values only) 18:23:47 do you think it's a good one that is applicacble to all programming not just CL? 18:23:49 francogrex: they disagree with using IF vs WHEN? 18:23:59 beach: I thought that it was called "Saigon" again. 18:24:14 francogrex: what other language has an IF/WHEN that returns values? 18:24:20 rahul: well, some are SAS programmers, and they are not familiar with the specificitry concept 18:24:26 francogrex: most of them only have the ?: equivalent to IF 18:24:36 Xof: welcome back to c.l.l :-) 18:24:36 SAS has if else and when-otherwise 18:24:55 francogrex: what's the difference? they both seem like 2-branch conditionals 18:25:03 SAS people say it doesn't matter which one u use 18:25:15 francogrex: it doesn't look like it matters to me 18:25:19 luis`: I'm not sure I accept welcomes from complainy babel folk (thanks :-) 18:25:33 francogrex: until someone tells me what the difference is, I see no obvious difference 18:25:53 rahul: yes indeed. maybe I will remove specificity from the section: "general programming standards" of the SOP 18:26:01 Xof: I hope to see the els announcement in at least 10 different mailing lists 18:26:07 Xof: what did I complain about? :) 18:26:35 francogrex: specificity is a good concept, but to make a choice, you need things that are different :) 18:27:01 Xach: I will drip-feed them to you 18:27:20 for example: now that I have you on tenterhooks, I will go home 18:27:29 *rahul* subscribes Xach to defdoc-devel and sends the ELS announcement to that list 18:28:01 rahul: true; it seems though in other languages used at work, this concept of specificity is the weakest. They are ok with concise, conventional, explicit, and consistent 18:28:13 also, what with sbcl10 and els2010 my conference-organizing self is likely to get confused. I don't want to screw up my announcements and have people point and laugh 18:28:53 francogrex: specificity is more about making sure that the next person understands your _intent_ and doesn't need to look far and wide to figure out what is going on in a specific part of the code 18:30:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:40 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-102.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:32:08 rahul: ok , I like your definition, do you think there is a better general example that can go along beside the IF-WHEN? 18:32:34 heh, Dylan is the first reference in the java language spec, and CLOS is the second 18:33:23 francogrex: IF-WHEN is a good example, just beware that it's not the names that you're choosing between but the structure of the constructs 18:34:08 francogrex: in situations where you're choosing between two values, use IF 18:34:17 because it has two branches 18:34:54 in situations where you want to optionally execute a bit of code or else not execute anything, use WHEN because it has only one branch 18:36:09 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:51 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-225.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 18:37:40 zlb [i=blizzard@freebsd-help.org] has joined #lisp 18:38:20 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:27 rahul: yes right, but that is not the case in all languages; I'm wondering if we can have an example that applies to almost all languages 18:38:55 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:28 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:40:54 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest87387 18:41:51 francogrex: I don't think so. Languages are too diverse for that. 18:42:08 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:42:34 Yeah, what's the equivalent in SK or INTERCAL? 18:42:39 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-126-240.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:33 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:46 Or prolog or "function machines"? 18:43:58 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:45 prolog probably has something to do with usage of the cut operator 18:46:19 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-225.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 18:46:34 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:46:47 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest4133 18:49:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 18:50:16 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:50:24 -!- eno__ is now 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-!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-19-133.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:05:13 rpg: are you here? 19:05:18 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-68.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:26 tcr: yes. 19:05:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:06:24 Axius [n=ade@92.82.68.235] has joined #lisp 19:07:43 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:05 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:08:05 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:08:05 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:08:05 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:08:05 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit 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[n=tvaal@209.9.227.203] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:08:07 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:08:07 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:08:07 -!- tarbo_ [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:08:07 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-eeb89d9f9042735c] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:08:07 -!- lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:08:07 -!- russell_ [n=russell_@bonneville.tdb.com] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:08:11 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 19:09:25 rpg: I'd like to write a function (asdf:who-depends-on system &key all deep) which returns a list of all the systems depending on `system' (if `all' is true, all systems and not only those currently loaded, if `deep' is nil. only systems directly depending on `system' are returned) 19:09:36 and I'd appreciate some guidance 19:09:39 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-232-207.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 19:14:00 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-235-47.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:29 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-sfliuhrchnhydqbp] has joined #lisp 19:16:13 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:14 tcr: So you would do an exhaustive search of the central registry to find all systems that /might/ be loaded in the case of :all? 19:19:01 I guess that would mean that I had to statically analyze the .asd files, eew, let's scratch :all 19:21:53 -!- Guest4133 [n=Kenjin@242-225.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 19:22:02 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:27 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:58 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 19:27:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:06 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:42 -!- coyo [i=alex@144.162.134.38] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:12 tcr: Yeah. This was done by Gary once in one of his documentation generating libraries --- he had to do a separate ASD-understander to do the doc generation. It was scary. 19:33:28 [I'm in a telecon and multitasking, so my response time is odd...] 19:35:58 -!- Guest87387 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:36:08 gz` [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:54 milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.148] has joined #lisp 19:40:18 nenorbot [n=Menas@87.69.67.58] has joined #lisp 19:40:28 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:43 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 19:43:00 coyo [i=alex@144.162.134.38] has joined #lisp 19:43:02 *dralston* inquires if queries on Lisp implementation are permitted here. 19:44:14 dralston: i don't find toy lisp implementation questions as interesting as big lisp implementation questions. 19:44:45 manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has joined #lisp 19:45:18 Understandably. 19:45:20 :) 19:46:26 especially since big implementation developers are in this channel 19:47:37 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 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A 40-minute netsplit. What happened? 19:49:58 -!- zlb [i=blizzard@freebsd-help.org] has left #lisp 19:51:09 Well, at the risk of posing an uninteresting question: how to the "big" Lisps deal with object types? Is there an internal list/hash-table of all defined types, so as to be extensible? 19:52:01 No, no... Type handling in lisp implementations is very interesting. 19:52:15 nyef: one thrill per minute 19:52:43 Especially when you've got three or more different views into the type system the way SBCL does. 19:53:07 dralston: classes has superclass and subclass slots 19:53:30 dralston: are you asking about types or classes? classes are easy 19:53:44 classes are a straight DAG 19:53:51 DAG? 19:53:52 types are very conditional 19:53:57 directed acyclic graph 19:53:59 directed acyclic graph 19:54:06 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- rlonstein [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@87.230.79.34] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- eibmozoib [i=cope@freeshell.org] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@79.160.22.139] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- nicktastique [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:06 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:07 codemonk1yx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:07 rapacity_ [n=prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:07 frontier1 [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:08 scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 19:54:08 rotty_ [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:09 beibmozoi [i=cope@freeshell.org] has joined #lisp 19:54:10 egn_ [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 19:54:10 rlonstei1 [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:13 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:16 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 19:54:18 snafuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:20 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:22 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:32 -!- snafuchs is now known as antifuchs 19:54:35 cods [n=cods@82.241.80.108] has joined #lisp 19:54:36 THANK YOU FREENODE 19:54:38 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:55 should minion chant that? 19:54:55 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 19:55:10 If you're looking more at types than just classes, you end up with the notion of a "type kind". 19:55:44 Which is, in a way, the class of the type. 19:56:05 dralston: for example, (type-+ (integer 1 10) (rational 0 7)) is (rational 1 17) 19:56:39 So you have (unsigned-byte 32) is an integer type with a range, which would have very different behavior than, say, an array type. 19:56:42 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 19:56:45 dralston: and then (floor (rational 1 17)) is (integer 1 17). oh look, it fits in a fixnum, so we can skip the bignum check 19:57:11 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-232-97.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:33 Yeah, so you get the abstract types that you can express in Lisp, the types that the compiler can reason about, and the types as expressed in the machine. 19:58:19 And then as soon as you add an FFI system it gets -real- fun. 19:58:27 heh 19:58:36 real as in float or real as in complex? 19:58:48 Real as in "not fake". 19:58:53 :) 19:59:16 Either that, or as in "royal". 19:59:32 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:59:35 heh, I was just thinking about the spanish meaning ;) 20:00:30 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:50 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 20:00:51 Hm. So, I assume that each object in memory has a pointer to some class in the "DAG", so the system knows how to treat it. 20:01:38 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:01:41 Not necessarily. 20:02:19 it is a bit more complicated, due to moppery 20:02:26 In Lisp terms, a CONS cell is an "object", and most systems these days use the low bits of the address of the cell to hold a tag that says "this is a cons cell". 20:02:38 And then, yes, you get other effects with instances. 20:02:46 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:03 Each instance has a class, which may or may not be an instance of standard-class. 20:03:34 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-4-145.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:03:37 well, today was an exciting day in sbcl commits 20:03:54 there is also a layer of indirection to allow live redefinition of classes 20:04:22 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-235-47.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:04:25 Krystof: Should I wait on committing the bug 310132 (fasdumping of literal structs in arglists) fix until tomorrow, then? 20:06:13 -!- ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:06:34 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:06:40 no, the day is yet young! 20:06:50 hello 20:07:16 francogrex [n=user@41.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:07:25 dralston: no, you're partly right in your "pointer to an element in the DAG" assessment 20:07:29 Ooh. .25 is nice, I noticed that it was missing when I looked over the partial_pickup junk. 20:07:36 Krystof: I like the new :external-format documentation 20:07:36 dralston: for structure and standard classes that's pretty much true 20:07:56 Xach: thank you 20:08:11 dralston: for arrays, there's a little header block that indicates what the features and specialized element types and dimensions of the array are, usually 20:08:18 I feel bad because the job (code and documentation) is only 3/4 done 20:08:32 Krystof: it's always made me a little queasy to draw a fully formed checkbox in the language comparison grid intersection of "sbcl" and "unicode" and any improvement makes me feel better 20:08:43 dralston: cons cells and fixnums are usually distinguished based on the lower order bits of the pointer (lowtag) 20:08:47 but time is precious these days 20:09:21 dralston: so basically, there's a hierarchy of tests to determine the class of an object, and given that, you can run tests to determine what types it happens to be a part of as well 20:10:50 Interesting. I'd read several times about types in the old Lisp machines being stored in the actual pointer. I guess I was always skeptical. 20:11:03 that is, even the work that I wanted to do is only 3/4 done; I'm not even talking about line-end conventions :-/ 20:11:29 dralston: read up on lowtags... I think Krystof or nyef can point you to the sbcl documentation on that... maybe there's some on the sbcl-internals wiki 20:11:53 dralston: also, c.l.l posts by Duane Rettig are always a good read 20:11:54 There's also the bit about the memory model in the encyCMUCLopedia. 20:12:13 nyef: jeez, that's something I had totally forogtten about 20:12:39 It's something that I find obnoxious enough to find that I have a local copy or two... somewhere. 20:13:16 Hahaha :P Well, that site sit certainly getting bookmarked. 20:13:45 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:44 dralston: the most interesting thing you'll find in discussions about this is how NIL is structured 20:14:58 dralston: NIL has to behave like a cons cell with car and cdr of NIL 20:15:09 dralston: it also has to behave like a symbol with symbol-value of NIL 20:15:52 And CMUCL and SBCL made an... interesting design decision with regards to the structure of NIL and the layout of lowtags. 20:16:26 if the implementation structures the memory layout of conses and symbols right, you'll get this behavior without any special casing 20:16:47 In the name of saving an instruction or two on one type test and slightly simpler CAR and CDR operations. 20:17:22 macro processing does a lot of CAR and CDRing :) 20:17:28 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-160-244-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:58 True, but that's more a compile-time thing than anything else. 20:17:59 so list operations are often optimized insanely on lisps... it's the one thing you KNOW every application is going to need 20:18:01 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.50.13] has joined #lisp 20:18:04 yeah 20:18:15 And not every application needs it. 20:18:30 at compile-time they all do... run time is a different issue 20:18:54 and being able to compile quickly when you have an interactive language is a valuable goal 20:19:03 Sure, nevermore uses some list ops at runtime, but I think they're all in the disassembler, which isn't used much of the time. 20:19:09 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 20:19:13 True, even if the layout is insane. 20:19:40 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:19:47 as long as the layout doesn't hinder performance in other situations, the only loss is cleanliness in a specific area of code 20:20:33 More-or-less true. 20:20:42 I'll concede it for the sake of argument. 20:20:51 Or for the sake of no argument. 20:20:55 heh 20:20:56 Whichever way that works. 20:21:06 we can argue about that, if you like 20:21:11 :P 20:21:29 -!- francogrex [n=user@41.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:21:38 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:21:42 ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:43 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp184.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 20:22:06 Not when I'm trying to find some notion of what sensory imagination is and how to simulate it. 20:22:15 Visual imagination to start with. 20:22:22 -!- ve [n=a@cpat002.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:24 -!- ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:53 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-133-105.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:54 its a matter of perception, its quite meaningless to a blind man after all 20:23:24 ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:33 or a less extreme version, colour has less or differing meaning to someone with colour blindness 20:23:34 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:23:43 I'd expect a blind man to have a more highly developed kinesthetic imagination, honestly. 20:24:18 nyef i'm not sure if that has ever actually been backed up by evidence 20:24:30 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 20:24:54 I'm not sure that I care if it has. 20:25:26 no said you had to 20:25:31 no one* 20:25:39 they definitely _concentrate_ more on it 20:26:11 Okay, that I can believe more than what I said before. 20:26:18 rahul hehe ya, 20:26:55 but the way that the brain works is that, as far as we know, the things we use more become more refined and use more neurological resources 20:27:10 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:18 so, it would be reasonable to assume that what nyef said in the first place is correct 20:27:24 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-180-165.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:18 but maybe they go out less, and stay in the same place more than even computer geeks, hehe 20:28:53 maybe... maybe not 20:28:59 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-232-97.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:29:04 knobo` [n=user@s0023-0003.dsl.start.no] has joined #lisp 20:29:28 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:37 indeed its all a little maybe... maybe not, anyway time to lisp 20:29:49 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:30:48 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:56 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:25 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 20:31:52 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:32:31 *rahul* cvs add formulate/clim-ui 20:32:41 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:27 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:33 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:58 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 20:35:29 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229115232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:36:31 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 20:36:47 Hmm, who was it that worked on metacvs? 20:37:10 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:37:21 ah, kaz 20:38:57 hee hee, a 2004 update: All Lisp symbols are in a package. 20:39:41 DREI barfs when I click on a presentation of (slot-value # 'slot-name) :( 20:40:03 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:40:12 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:18 I guess it should be '#, but it seems to barf on #\( 20:40:21 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 20:41:11 rahul: Why should it be '#? #s are self-evaluating. 20:41:16 where in clhs is the description of defun/defmacro/defmethod of a setf form? 20:41:42 LiamH: You can't defmacro it, but it's a function name. 20:41:58 Or can you defmacro it? I forget. 20:42:00 #s are self-evaluating but not readable 20:42:11 rahul is probably implicitly calling a presentation method which calls READ 20:42:32 The actual place the arglist and such would be described would be in the section on generalized reference. 20:42:33 Krystof: I'm not trying to read it, tho. I'm trying to click on it to put it into an expression 20:42:39 nyef: I thought you could, but anyway I'm interested in defun. There's a description in clhs, but not in a place I've looked. 20:42:49 Krystof: Did you reply to my question regarding defgeneric and (declare (values ..))? 20:42:54 tcr: no 20:43:07 clhs 5.1.2.9 20:43:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abi.htm 20:43:30 Ah, and 5.1.2.7 describes the use of macros. 20:43:32 nice section abbreviation 20:43:49 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:43:52 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-249.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:44:02 tcr: How so? 20:44:04 nyef: I think that's it. 20:44:20 -!- peri4n [n=peri4n@77-64-173-45.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:44:25 -!- coyo [i=alex@144.162.134.38] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 20:44:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 20:44:51 *deepfire* tries to figure out what MetaCVS solves that any modern DVCS doesn't 20:45:06 deepfire: metacvs predates modern dvcs 20:45:15 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6E2E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:45:17 -!- knobo [n=user@s0023-0003.dsl.start.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:45:25 tcr: abitur 2005? 20:45:43 06, along with the WM in germany 20:45:59 damn, I'm old 20:46:01 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Off to lunch."] 20:46:16 tcr: I meant your abbreviation comment 20:46:35 Oh I thought you googled my name or something 20:47:10 tcr: sorry, no. Please do not take that personally ;). 20:47:37 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:55 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:55 21:30:55 -!- names: ccl-logbot dysinger ntd nvoorhies Shamwow erk kpreid roygbiv ace4016 Moop demmeln fe[nl]ix pavelludiq knobo` ``Erik eno__ dreish_ marioxcc Guthur varjag froydnj Athas Krystof AntiSpamMeta cods piso rbancroft antifuchs nicktastic lichtblau egn_ rlonstei1 beibmozoi rotty_ scode_ frontier1 rapacity codemonk1yx StanleyD Xof Borbus hohum wgl sytse deepfire xristos Orest^bnc minion phadthai smithzv aja guaqua Pepe_ tltstc spiaggia nareshov Adrinael 21:30:55 -!- names: mfo C-o-r-E hicx174 araujo lnostdal ianmcorvidae Elench jsnell majhool cmm abeaumont hdurer__ rread z0d fawxtin`` Retardedpope1 fihi09 xinming Spaghettini Yuuhi spec[away] ignas davazp LiamH rlarson82 hugod overdrive Maddas sellout kejsaren_ Guest69173 mattrepl tvaalen Zhivago tarbo_ rey_ lharc maskd nyef Draggor nullman p_l mncaudill mogunus blitz_ kleppari bdowning russell_ kiuma manituuuu nenorbot milanj gz` Adamant slyrus_ saikatc mrsolo 21:30:55 -!- names: zbigniew sepult legumbre_ psc_bw dstatyvka gz Jasko myrkraverk` stassats billstclair nowhereman mikezor proq acrid faux grouzen wlr ikki Sumpen nipra_ pem luis` c|mell Fufie cvandusen bobbysmith007 rrice udzinari pkhuong Hun mishoo bgs100 ia Adlai daniel flatline spacebat trittweiler Summermute madnificent Edico serichsen Taggnostr eihrul mejja carlocci thatdavidmiller dmiles_afk yahooooo somnium rdd authentic morphling anekos retupmoca Madsy 21:30:55 -!- names: |coyoes| ecraven billitch Bucciarati jyujin johs aking pragma_ ineiros highb qebab rootzlevel hoeq p8m joga lpolzer_ DrForr_ srcerer mtd rahul benny beach skeptomai sykopomp Vonunov Tordek rstandy plutonas thermal_ TR2N koollman dalkvist_ hypno lisppaste REPLeffect_ lemoinem Ginei_Morioka ironChicken hdurer_ wgl_ slather _3b dcrawford antoszka metasyntax weirdo kuwabara CrazyEddy stepnem Ralith stoop rullie koning_robot WhiteFlam yacin housel 21:30:55 -!- names: thijso mornfall pok EinarDogfin arbscht qsun fatalnix1995_ schme tsuru` tessier Xach holycow Computer mgr rares Dodek Lycurgus nasloc__ KatrinaTheLamia dek5 huangjs Khisanth robewald bfein sjbach fnordus nimred Aisling Buganini bakkdoor BrianRice kloeri chii prip _3b` vsync frodef pixel5 felipe specbot rsynnott krappie tic PissedNumlock ramus` herbieB Guest67387 guenthr foom esden cpt_nemo setheus_ bohanlon qidush_ clog_ acieroid mathrick 21:30:55 -!- names: dostoyev1ky blast_hardcheese emma fgtech metric jrockway vcgomes michaelw Patzy djinni` alexbobp rtoym zeroish joast dfox mle luis erg boyscared cataska r0bby j0ni l_a_m ski Fade Axioplase_ 21:30:58 rahul: The positions are not independent... they're calculated based on various inputs to the particle models (electro-statics, external fields, polarizabilities, etc.) and the velocity-verlet algorithm pushes one set of positions to the next 'time' step 21:31:44 rahul: my data sets are the final results of the molecular dynamics... I'm not trying to program a new engine to do the calculations, just analyses of the data that was already generated 21:32:37 Shamwow: ok, using an R-tree to will help you ignore particles that are far away from the current particle 21:33:24 an R-tree is probably inappropriate for elecrostatics 21:33:45 yeah... probably 21:34:10 rahul: Generally people use different structures than R-trees. Also, dynamics are taking place within periodic boundaries... 21:35:00 in any case, once you get the computations into lisp, then optimizations of that type will be more relevant 21:35:07 faux` [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:35:12 absolutely 21:35:38 -!- nenorbot [n=Menas@87.69.67.58] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:38:10 Right now I'm generating a graph of the connectivity to designate "molecules" and to watch bonding/dissociation, etc.. Not exactly an R-tree, but useful 21:38:32 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8368.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:13 segoe [n=sg@83.231.51.87] has joined #lisp 21:39:36 Quad/Oct trees seem quite good for field based simulations. 21:39:41 hi 21:48:14 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:14 21:48:14 -!- names: ccl-logbot slash_ segoe rme faux` dysinger ntd nvoorhies Shamwow erk kpreid roygbiv ace4016 Moop demmeln fe[nl]ix pavelludiq ``Erik eno__ dreish_ marioxcc Guthur varjag froydnj Athas Krystof AntiSpamMeta cods piso rbancroft antifuchs nicktastic lichtblau egn_ rlonstei1 beibmozoi rotty_ scode_ rapacity codemonk1yx frontier1 StanleyD Xof Borbus hohum wgl sytse deepfire xristos Orest^bnc minion phadthai smithzv aja guaqua Pepe_ tltstc spiaggia 21:48:14 -!- names: nareshov Adrinael mfo C-o-r-E hicx174 araujo lnostdal ianmcorvidae Elench jsnell majhool cmm abeaumont hdurer__ rread z0d fawxtin`` Retardedpope1 fihi09 xinming Spaghettini Yuuhi spec[away] ignas davazp LiamH rlarson82 hugod overdrive Maddas sellout kejsaren_ Guest69173 mattrepl tvaalen Zhivago tarbo_ rey_ lharc maskd nyef Draggor nullman p_l mncaudill mogunus blitz_ kleppari bdowning russell_ kiuma manituuuu milanj gz` Adamant slyrus_ saikatc 21:48:14 -!- names: mrsolo zbigniew sepult legumbre_ psc_bw dstatyvka gz Jasko myrkraverk` stassats billstclair nowhereman mikezor proq acrid faux grouzen wlr ikki Sumpen nipra_ pem luis` c|mell Fufie cvandusen bobbysmith007 rrice udzinari pkhuong Hun mishoo bgs100 ia Adlai daniel flatline spacebat trittweiler Summermute madnificent Edico serichsen Taggnostr eihrul mejja carlocci thatdavidmiller dmiles_afk yahooooo somnium rdd authentic anekos retupmoca Madsy 21:48:14 -!- names: |coyoes| ecraven billitch Bucciarati jyujin johs aking pragma_ ineiros highb qebab rootzlevel hoeq p8m joga lpolzer_ DrForr_ srcerer mtd rahul benny beach skeptomai sykopomp Vonunov Tordek rstandy plutonas thermal_ TR2N koollman dalkvist_ hypno lisppaste REPLeffect_ lemoinem Ginei_Morioka ironChicken hdurer_ wgl_ slather _3b dcrawford antoszka metasyntax weirdo kuwabara CrazyEddy stepnem Ralith stoop rullie koning_robot WhiteFlam yacin housel 21:48:14 -!- names: thijso mornfall pok EinarDogfin arbscht qsun fatalnix1995_ schme tsuru` tessier Xach holycow Computer mgr rares Dodek Lycurgus nasloc__ KatrinaTheLamia dek5 huangjs Khisanth robewald bfein sjbach fnordus nimred Aisling Buganini bakkdoor BrianRice erg boyscared cataska r0bby j0ni l_a_m ski Fade Axioplase_ luis mle dfox joast zeroish rtoym alexbobp djinni` Patzy michaelw vcgomes jrockway metric fgtech emma blast_hardcheese dostoyev1ky mathrick 21:48:14 -!- names: kloeri chii cpt_nemo esden foom prip _3b` vsync frodef pixel5 felipe specbot rsynnott krappie tic PissedNumlock ramus` herbieB Guest67387 guenthr setheus_ bohanlon qidush_ clog_ acieroid 21:48:46 Ok, apparently I'm an idiot. 21:49:00 GRRR why does my presentation get an extra QUOTE wrapped around it?!? 21:49:02 To my excuse I feel really numb today. 21:49:28 well, then listen to some pink floyd 21:50:16 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:50:20 Or a cover. Wasn't there a Joni Mitchell cover of that song? 21:50:32 heh 21:50:39 there's lots 21:50:48 *deepfire* grabs a pencil and some paper, as there appears to be little hope of unarmed-brain solution 21:50:50 there's a trance cover too, I think 21:51:06 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:48 -!- gz` [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:03 gz` [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:14 asdfasd [n=email@89.180.172.244] has joined #lisp 21:55:43 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:58:30 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:08 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:10 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.172.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:03:28 HAHA!!!!!!! 22:03:37 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:03:37 Formulate.CLIM-UI is alive!! 22:04:34 congratulations 22:04:34 (png, png) 22:04:34 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:04:35 well, it's more about interaction 22:04:35 rahul: going to fight in kennyspace? ;-) 22:04:35 ok, avi, avi 22:04:35 it's the fact that I can set a slot value and the displayed formula for something else that depends on it updates 22:04:35 heh 22:04:38 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:04:45 p_l: oh, he's doing his comedy show at the bar tonight 22:04:47 hmmmmm 22:05:13 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:07:03 p_l: and it's at least a once-a-month thing for me to fight in kennyspace, regardless of what's going on :) 22:07:13 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:35 although there is still the problem with presentations getting wrapped with QUOTE 22:10:33 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:33 22:10:33 -!- names: ccl-logbot ltriant b4|hraban Jasko2 ASau asdfasd gz` dlowe slash_ segoe faux` dysinger ntd nvoorhies Shamwow erk kpreid roygbiv ace4016 Moop fe[nl]ix pavelludiq ``Erik eno__ dreish_ marioxcc Guthur varjag froydnj Krystof AntiSpamMeta cods piso rbancroft antifuchs nicktastic lichtblau egn_ rlonstei1 beibmozoi rotty_ frontier1 scode_ codemonk1yx rapacity StanleyD Xof Borbus hohum wgl sytse deepfire xristos Orest^bnc minion phadthai smithzv aja 22:10:33 -!- names: guaqua Pepe_ tltstc spiaggia nareshov Adrinael mfo C-o-r-E hicx174 araujo lnostdal ianmcorvidae Elench jsnell majhool cmm abeaumont hdurer__ rread z0d fawxtin`` Retardedpope1 fihi09 xinming Spaghettini Yuuhi spec[away] ignas davazp LiamH rlarson82 hugod overdrive Maddas sellout kejsaren_ Guest69173 mattrepl tvaalen Zhivago tarbo_ rey_ lharc maskd nyef Draggor nullman p_l mncaudill mogunus blitz_ kleppari bdowning russell_ kiuma manituuuu milanj 22:10:33 -!- names: Adamant slyrus_ saikatc mrsolo zbigniew sepult legumbre psc_bw dstatyvka gz myrkraverk` stassats billstclair nowhereman mikezor proq acrid grouzen wlr ikki Sumpen nipra_ pem luis` c|mell Fufie cvandusen bobbysmith007 rrice udzinari pkhuong Hun mishoo bgs100 ia Adlai daniel flatline spacebat trittweiler Summermute madnificent Edico serichsen Taggnostr eihrul mejja carlocci thatdavidmiller dmiles_afk yahooooo somnium rdd authentic anekos retupmoca 22:10:33 -!- names: Madsy |coyoes| ecraven billitch Bucciarati jyujin johs aking pragma_ ineiros highb qebab rootzlevel hoeq p8m joga lpolzer_ DrForr_ srcerer mtd rahul benny beach skeptomai sykopomp Vonunov Tordek rstandy plutonas thermal_ koollman dalkvist_ hypno lisppaste REPLeffect_ lemoinem Ginei_Morioka ironChicken hdurer_ wgl_ slather _3b dcrawford antoszka metasyntax weirdo kuwabara CrazyEddy stepnem Ralith stoop rullie koning_robot WhiteFlam yacin housel 22:10:33 -!- names: thijso mornfall pok EinarDogfin arbscht qsun fatalnix1995_ schme tsuru` tessier Xach holycow Computer mgr rares Dodek Lycurgus nasloc__ KatrinaTheLamia dek5 huangjs Khisanth robewald bfein sjbach fnordus nimred Aisling Buganini bakkdoor BrianRice kloeri chii prip _3b` vsync frodef pixel5 felipe specbot rsynnott krappie tic PissedNumlock ramus` herbieB Guest67387 guenthr foom esden cpt_nemo setheus_ bohanlon qidush_ clog_ acieroid mathrick dostoyev1ky 22:10:33 -!- names: blast_hardcheese emma fgtech metric jrockway vcgomes michaelw Patzy djinni` alexbobp rtoym zeroish joast dfox mle luis Axioplase_ Fade ski l_a_m j0ni r0bby cataska boyscared erg 22:10:57 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:59 although the presentation type in question inherits from SEQUENCE 22:11:11 which may be what's making this mess... 22:11:23 converting a sequence to an expression probably would quote it... 22:12:05 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:49 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:13:04 hmm, maybe not... or maybe I need to restart the app to get the change in the type definition to have effect 22:15:56 m7d [n=lriley@pool-71-102-232-43.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:28 hello, i want to add some days to a universal time instance, anyone know how to do that? 22:17:54 rahul: anyway, any screenshots/movies? :-) 22:18:09 m7d: decode its time, add to the days, re-encode the time 22:19:02 m7d: Universal-times are integers measured in some unit (seconds?), you should be able to work it out from there with a knowledge of how time measurement is structured. 22:19:15 Krystof: will that handle month boundaries, e.g., add 30 days to today for instance 22:19:25 Krystof: Would that work for the ... yeah, what m7d asked. 22:19:41 Of course, neither method would work if you were adding business days. 22:20:13 it will not. You can always add 86400 seconds, but that will be wrong twice a year 22:20:36 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 22:20:42 More often when they start dealing with leap-seconds. 22:21:11 leap seconds don't change the progression of UTC, do they? 22:21:20 is there a decent library for dealing with date arithmetic that i could use? 22:21:21 they actually correct UTC, I thought 22:21:27 clhs local-time 22:21:28 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for local-time. 22:21:29 i saw local-time 22:21:30 doh 22:21:35 minion: local-time 22:21:36 local-time: local-time is a development library for manipulating date and time information in a semi-standard manner. http://www.cliki.net/local-time 22:21:41 I guess we need to work out what you mean by "days" 22:21:46 http://cr.yp.to/proto/utctai.html has some context 22:21:46 m7d: there isn't a single one in the world for any language that's publically available, IMO 22:21:49 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:51 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:55 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:22:17 m7d: most decent libraries are made in-house for the organization's specific needs 22:22:25 just want to solve a simple problem of adding 30 days to an invoice date to get the due date 22:22:30 because otherwise, you get into way too many possibilities 22:22:41 m7d: 30 of which kinds of days? 22:22:50 24 hr days 22:22:53 rahul: Typically, calendar days, if it's for invoicing. 22:23:05 I'd just go with the adding however many seconds it was. 22:23:08 m7d, you could add (* 30 24 60 60) :) 22:23:16 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has quit ["sleep"] 22:23:17 my planet lisp hosting provider does 30-day billing. it is awful. 22:23:20 could call c|mell 22:23:26 thanks 22:23:39 nyef, it was a DAG, the local inheritance order was messed up. 22:23:43 s/could/good 22:23:47 m7d: including if it falls on a weekend? 22:23:54 The granularity required is such that unless you're generating your invoices too close to midnight that there shouldn't be a problem. 22:23:55 deepfire: I was expecting that to be the case :) 22:23:56 rahul: yes 22:24:08 m7d: ok, then it's easy 22:24:40 rahul: Yeah, invoices can come due on a weekend. It's probably a matter of local policy if there's an implicit grace period or if they must be paid by the last business day before the weekend/holiday. 22:25:05 nyef: yeah, that's what I was thinking... do you go before or after the target date for the real date 22:25:29 and then, do you go from the target date or the real date to determine the next date 22:25:31 But even there, the rough calculation should be sufficient to get you going. 22:25:47 yeah, that's business-specific logic 22:26:23 *nyef* shudders in memory of ill-specified business-specific logic for variable warranty periods. 22:26:59 Ended up with a basic rule and then five exceptions that had to be checked for. Bloody nightmare. 22:27:15 that's nothing 22:27:20 try bank loans 22:27:28 or airline reservation rules... 22:27:36 Yeah, but doing it when the project is already in time crunch and they can't actually tell you what the real rules are. 22:27:38 one question... 22:27:45 Xach: fare rules, more specifically 22:27:56 fortunately, we get to blame all that on Fare 22:28:07 he does indeed 22:28:08 nyef: btw, did you get my message about a new alpha emulator on linux? 22:28:08 Heh. I was trying to figure out how to make that joke. 22:28:14 p_l: Umm... No? 22:28:17 i'm finding EOPL great, as well as lisp in small pieces, ¿other books that deal with lisp implementation strategies? 22:28:21 nyef: that's what the situation was with the bank loans too 22:28:47 orbit, rabbit? 22:28:48 nyef: there's a non-commercial/educational evaluation beta of CHARON-AXP for linux 22:28:49 rahul: Including the "the system is going live in two weeks and we haven't even written this part yet" bit? 22:28:54 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 22:29:03 segoe: mostly it's in c.l.l and the implemnetation notes for the open source compilers 22:29:07 p_l: Ah, cool. 22:29:21 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:26 nyef: yes. so they made us manually reconcile it all 22:29:28 nyef: "in two weeks" is better than "system was supposed to be live last weekend but we still haven't got crucial parts written"? :) 22:29:29 rahul, sorry... what's c.l.l? 22:29:35 until the rules were figured out 22:29:40 segoe: comp.lang.lisp 22:29:43 segoe: comp.lang.lisp newsgroup. Avoid 22:29:52 p_l: True. Still, nightmare. 22:29:54 ah, ok thanks 22:30:08 segoe: Duane Rettig makes great posts about implementation decisions made for ACL 22:30:32 That was also the project where they wouldn't tell us the input validation rules for one of the integrations but filed bugs on our project whenever we missed one.. 22:30:55 especially on comp.arch. 22:31:08 rahul nice, i'll look for them 22:31:16 Abusing alignment checking for lowtag checks is awesome. 22:31:30 hehe 22:31:34 nyef: as for emulator - it's very resource intensive (recommended config: 5 cpu cores + 4G ram and good I/O, doesn't start on single core cpus) and doesn't have all the accelerations of CHARON-AXP, but version number suggests that they released it to get bug reports for porting efforts to Linux 22:31:54 pkhuong: but that makes fixnum arithmetic not so fast 22:32:00 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:32:00 but i'm mostly interested in books like eopl that deal with a lot of details from start to end and different possibilities (like what kind of object system to build and so on) 22:32:11 rahul: how? 22:32:12 nyef: I have succesfully installed VMS 8.3 on it, though 22:32:24 segoe: build an object system with a metaobject protocol 22:32:30 hm how do i get a lisppaste ? 22:32:32 segoe: then the user gets to decide on the behaviors 22:32:36 lisppaste: url 22:32:37 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 22:32:39 rahul: How so? The alignment-based checks are only done when accessing heap object slots. 22:32:41 minion: amop? 22:32:41 amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 22:32:42 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:05 rahul yes, that's the point, i like experimenting and i'm the only user :P 22:33:11 pkhuong: if the lowtag for fixnum ends in 00, + is just hardware add 22:33:25 rahul: with you so far. 22:33:28 pkhuong: multiply is hardware mult with a shift 22:33:37 rahul: And abusing the alignment-check hardware doesn't require that fixnum lowtags not be 00. 22:34:01 We could possibly even do it in SBCL. 22:34:21 -!- Moop [n=Moop@c-98-244-54-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:34:39 ... Hell, I even know how to go about doing it in SBCL. 22:34:46 nyef: oh, you could use the alignment check as a negative check? 22:34:56 oh, or you could have an immediate offset 22:35:04 You always have an immediate offset anyway. 22:35:09 yes 22:35:14 so that is free 22:35:16 nyef: how would that work for a RISC architecture? 22:35:22 p_l: Might not. 22:35:35 why not? 22:35:38 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 22:35:45 RISC archs usually have immediate offsets, too 22:35:58 p_l: Then again, you're only trapping on memory access, so it might. Depends if you have a trap for misaligned access or not. 22:36:03 you need it so often for local variable manipulation anyway 22:36:23 nyef: I think most archs CAN enable that 22:36:31 Yeah, yeah. 22:36:37 might need some support from the OS 22:36:53 billitch pasted "make-array does not initialize properly with element-type boolean" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90197 22:37:04 is this normal ? 22:37:05 So what you do is you tell the compiler that if you're going to check the header of an other-pointer then you don't bother with checking the lowtag for other-pointerness. 22:37:18 -!- Guest69173 [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:29 And you either pull a memory fault or an alignment fault, and you go from there. 22:37:45 billitch: yes 22:37:46 billitch: boolean upgrades to type T 22:37:51 rahul: some RISC arches will give you the whole "bail out you're doing illegal stuff" exception 22:38:05 billitch: you could use element type of bit instead 22:38:06 billitch: yes, this is expected. You must specify an initial element. 22:38:10 billitch: Yeah, that's normal. make-array isn't required to initialize the array unless you supply initial-element or initial-contents. 22:38:25 I recall that NetBSD/alpha? your application won't notice alignement faults, but OS would 22:38:30 yes, and you'll need to specify that you want it initialized anyway 22:38:31 ok, i got all zeros though 22:38:39 thanks 22:38:47 hi, can you ever have a variable named "t"? 22:39:00 egn_: Sure, just not CL:T. 22:39:07 nyef: ah, k 22:39:15 nyef: yeah, makes sense 22:39:22 So shadow T or don't use CL in your package. 22:39:36 <_3b> clog_:T is named "T" anyway, |t| is fine 22:39:38 billitch: and if you want compact and fast boolean array, you might use bit-arrays 22:39:49 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:39:52 billitch: boolean is upgraded to type T 22:40:00 billitch: so anything at all can go in that array 22:40:05 stassats: yeh but i think it will be slower on x86 at least 22:40:14 *_3b* should figure out how to turn of that broken nick completion 22:40:14 you think? 22:40:21 all i want is 4 bytes of true or false 22:40:36 4 bytes or 4 values? 22:40:50 sure, these stupid procs are optimized for C and int access 22:40:52 either way, the performance difference in that case will be negligible 22:41:09 billitch: then don't build your data structure the same way 22:41:18 use whatever is sensible 22:41:19 u know in the libc strcpy is optimized by using ints instead of chars 22:41:34 this is freakishingly stupid 22:41:35 billitch: i7 even includes hw string functions... 22:41:39 billitch: actually, it uses MTRR 22:41:50 (if the array is large enough) 22:42:19 billitch: in any case, the difference when you're dealing with 4 values is nothing 22:42:24 yeah depends on the libc right 22:42:42 You want fast strcpy() on old PC hardware? Use DMA. >:-) 22:43:11 lol 22:43:50 Is there such a thing as a memory-to-memory dma on x86? 22:45:06 (And if it does, doesn't it impose a kind of alignment making it highly impractical for str*()?) 22:45:17 deepfire: isn't it the only one in PC? AFAIK physical addressing spans both memory and IO space 22:45:24 deepfire: I don't know, but I've heard that there's some way to do it. Possibly involving multiple DMA channels at once. 22:45:39 but why would boolean be upgraded to T ? the compiler could be able to optimize this convenient type, no ? 22:46:23 Ok I guess unwarranted seriousness can ruin any good joke :-) 22:46:25 <_3b> billitch: T and NIL are symbols, so it would have to do extra work to limit it to just those symbols 22:46:35 deepfire: as for alignement, you can copy manually the dangling bits 22:46:46 billitch: booleans are just symbols 22:46:48 billitch: It is plausibe that a specialized array type for booleans could exist... But it involves a space/time tradeoff. 22:47:20 symbols are usually only represented as full object pointers 22:47:42 If, in a class declaration, I have one slot with :allocation :class, can I access this slot from the :initform of a different slot (with :allocation :instance)? 22:47:58 serichsen: via the class-prototype, yes 22:48:00 trittweiler: are you still awake? 22:48:16 serichsen: not from initform 22:48:21 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-072-215.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:33 serichsen: otherwise, you'd want to use an initialize-instance :after method 22:48:37 oh, misread 22:48:54 or other slime hackers who can suggest how to debug a slime crash 22:49:17 Krystof: look at *slime-events* and *inferior-lisp* buffers 22:49:37 rahul: I'd like to keep that slot with a :reader only, that's why I left i-i :a for now 22:49:52 stassats: there is nothing exciting in them 22:49:54 rahul: how can I access the class prototype? 22:50:13 also, I must be doing something fundamentally wrong somewhere because this is so utterly repeatable surely everyone would be complaining 22:50:31 Krystof: Stale fasls? 22:50:33 and how does it crash? 22:50:39 serichsen: it's a MOP function 22:50:54 serichsen: you can setf slot-value in the initialize-instance method 22:50:54 (start slime with a non-threaded sbcl with :fd-handler communication style. Type (error "foo") at the slime repl. Select either restart. Marvel as the slime repl becomes non-responsive) 22:51:13 Ohh... I remember that one. 22:51:15 serichsen: in fact, I wouldn't use anything but s-v in i-i 22:51:26 any further input gets "pipelined"; I don't get my CL-USER> prompt back 22:51:35 Used to get that on win32 until something nasty came down involving read-char-no-hang. 22:52:01 ok, i'll build non-threaded sbcl 22:52:10 rahul: ah 22:52:16 the status in *inferior-lisp* is Comint:run even after the restart is selected 22:52:24 Does it have to be non-threaded SBCL or can you just override the communication style? 22:52:28 rahul: why not? 22:52:50 Yeah, it's waiting for something, I think. 22:53:05 (of course we're going to find that it's because of all my shiny new external format work, and irony will be multiplied hundredfold) 22:53:13 And it's on the lisp side it's waiting. 22:53:21 serichsen: because accessors are part of the object interaction protocol, not the object initialization protocol 22:53:31 this is with 1.0.32.24; please tell me that I haven't just broken everything with my fd-streams work :-/ 22:53:50 rahul: OK, that makes sense (I think). 22:53:58 serichsen: and object interaction may assume that the object is initialized (so subclasses may want to do things that break before initialization) 22:55:09 Krystof: Easy test: Back out to 1.0.32.something-earlier and try again, then do before-and-after tests around the other commits. 22:55:17 I bet I have 22:55:20 rahul: thanks a lot! 22:55:43 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:56:08 It's probably something to do with read-char-no-hang or similar, though. 22:56:29 rvirding [n=chatzill@h92n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:58:10 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:52 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:25 Krystof: i cannot reproduce on 1.0.32 23:01:46 O joy 23:01:49 thanks 23:02:16 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:40 kidd [n=kidd@216.Red-88-16-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:05 indeed read-char-no-hang appears to be hanging 23:04:12 I seem to remember having _caused_ this once before 23:04:14 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:08:03 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-123.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:09:39 michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 23:10:55 roneau2005 [n=roneau20@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:12:09 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h92n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:21 *Krystof* sees at least one possible cause 23:14:08 sg [n=sg@83.231.11.211] has joined #lisp 23:16:13 schaf [n=6adameit@rzdspc10.informatik.uni-hamburg.de] has joined #lisp 23:37:50 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:50 23:37:50 -!- names: ccl-logbot konr ASau hugod rme quek schaf sg roneau2005 Nshag OmniMancer dralston demmeln redline6561 lukjad007 Odin- dlowe m7d Soulman ltriant b4|hraban Jasko2 asdfasd gz` slash_ faux` dysinger ntd nvoorhies Shamwow erk kpreid roygbiv ace4016 fe[nl]ix pavelludiq ``Erik eno dreish_ marioxcc-AFK Guthur froydnj Krystof AntiSpamMeta cods piso rbancroft antifuchs nicktastic lichtblau egn_ rlonstei1 beibmozoi rotty_ scode_ rapacity codemonk1yx 23:37:50 -!- names: frontier1 StanleyD Xof Borbus hohum wgl sytse deepfire xristos Orest^bnc minion phadthai smithzv aja guaqua Pepe_ tltstc spiaggia nareshov Adrinael mfo C-o-r-E hicx174 araujo lnostdal ianmcorvidae Elench jsnell majhool cmm abeaumont hdurer__ rread z0d fawxtin`` Retardedpope1 fihi09 xinming Spaghettini Yuuhi mrSpec davazp LiamH rlarson82 overdrive Maddas sellout kejsaren_ mattrepl tvaalen Zhivago tarbo_ rey_ lharc maskd nyef Draggor nullman 23:37:50 -!- names: p_l mncaudill mogunus blitz_ kleppari bdowning russell_ kiuma manituuuu Adamant slyrus_ saikatc mrsolo zbigniew sepult legumbre psc_bw dstatyvka gz myrkraverk` stassats billstclair nowhereman mikezor proq acrid grouzen wlr ikki Sumpen nipra_ pem luis` Fufie bobbysmith007 rrice udzinari pkhuong Hun bgs100 ia Adlai daniel flatline spacebat trittweiler Summermute madnificent serichsen Taggnostr eihrul mejja thatdavidmiller dmiles_afk yahooooo 23:37:50 -!- names: somnium rdd authentic anekos retupmoca Madsy |coyoes| ecraven billitch Bucciarati jyujin johs aking pragma_ ineiros highb qebab hoeq p8m joga lpolzer_ DrForr_ srcerer mtd rahul benny beach skeptomai sykopomp Vonunov Tordek rstandy plutonas thermal_ koollman dalkvist_ hypno lisppaste REPLeffect_ lemoinem Ginei_Morioka ironChicken hdurer_ wgl_ slather _3b dcrawford antoszka metasyntax weirdo kuwabara CrazyEddy stepnem Ralith stoop rullie koning_robot 23:37:50 -!- names: WhiteFlam yacin housel thijso mornfall pok EinarDogfin arbscht qsun fatalnix1995_ schme tsuru` tessier Xach holycow Computer mgr rares Dodek Lycurgus nasloc__ KatrinaTheLamia dek5 huangjs Khisanth robewald bfein sjbach fnordus nimred Aisling Buganini bakkdoor BrianRice erg boyscared cataska r0bby j0ni l_a_m ski Fade Axioplase_ luis mle dfox joast zeroish rtoym alexbobp djinni` Patzy michaelw vcgomes jrockway metric fgtech emma blast_hardcheese 23:37:50 -!- names: dostoyev1ky mathrick kloeri chii acieroid clog_ qidush_ bohanlon setheus_ cpt_nemo esden foom guenthr Guest67387 herbieB ramus` PissedNumlock tic krappie rsynnott specbot felipe prip _3b` vsync frodef pixel5 23:40:07 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:43:23 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:43:25 hi 23:43:37 Hi Sikander, I just solved our FFT problem 23:43:58 Wow! What? Where? How? What was the problem?! 23:44:04 stassats: ok, it was entirely my fault; fix committage (to sbcl) tomorrow. Thanks for looking (and thanks to nyef for jogging my memory) 23:53:44 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:44 23:53:44 -!- names: ccl-logbot whoppix rvirding Sikander konr ASau hugod quek schaf sg roneau2005 Nshag OmniMancer dralston demmeln redline6561 lukjad007 Odin- dlowe m7d ltriant b4|hraban Jasko2 asdfasd gz` slash_ faux` dysinger ntd nvoorhies Shamwow erk kpreid roygbiv ace4016 fe[nl]ix pavelludiq ``Erik eno dreish_ marioxcc-AFK Guthur froydnj AntiSpamMeta cods piso rbancroft antifuchs nicktastic lichtblau egn_ rlonstei1 beibmozoi rotty_ scode_ rapacity codemonk1yx 23:53:44 -!- names: frontier1 StanleyD Xof Borbus hohum wgl sytse deepfire xristos Orest^bnc minion phadthai smithzv aja guaqua Pepe_ tltstc spiaggia nareshov Adrinael mfo C-o-r-E hicx174 araujo lnostdal ianmcorvidae Elench jsnell majhool cmm abeaumont hdurer__ rread z0d fawxtin`` Retardedpope1 fihi09 xinming Spaghettini Yuuhi mrSpec LiamH rlarson82 overdrive Maddas sellout kejsaren_ mattrepl tvaalen Zhivago tarbo_ rey_ lharc maskd nyef Draggor nullman p_l mncaudill 23:53:44 -!- names: mogunus blitz_ kleppari bdowning russell_ kiuma manituuuu Adamant slyrus_ saikatc mrsolo zbigniew sepult legumbre psc_bw dstatyvka gz myrkraverk` stassats billstclair nowhereman mikezor proq grouzen wlr ikki Sumpen nipra_ pem luis` Fufie bobbysmith007 rrice udzinari pkhuong Hun bgs100 ia Adlai daniel flatline spacebat trittweiler Summermute madnificent serichsen Taggnostr eihrul mejja thatdavidmiller dmiles_afk yahooooo somnium rdd authentic 23:53:44 -!- names: anekos retupmoca Madsy |coyoes| ecraven billitch Bucciarati jyujin johs aking pragma_ ineiros highb qebab hoeq p8m joga lpolzer_ DrForr_ srcerer mtd rahul benny beach skeptomai sykopomp Vonunov Tordek rstandy plutonas thermal_ koollman dalkvist_ hypno lisppaste REPLeffect_ lemoinem Ginei_Morioka ironChicken hdurer_ wgl_ slather _3b dcrawford antoszka metasyntax weirdo kuwabara CrazyEddy stepnem Ralith stoop rullie koning_robot WhiteFlam yacin 23:53:44 -!- names: housel thijso mornfall pok EinarDogfin arbscht qsun fatalnix1995_ schme tsuru` tessier Xach holycow Computer mgr rares Dodek Lycurgus nasloc__ KatrinaTheLamia dek5 huangjs Khisanth robewald bfein sjbach fnordus nimred Aisling Buganini bakkdoor BrianRice erg boyscared cataska r0bby j0ni l_a_m ski Fade Axioplase_ luis mle dfox joast zeroish rtoym alexbobp djinni` Patzy michaelw vcgomes jrockway metric fgtech emma blast_hardcheese dostoyev1ky 23:53:44 -!- names: mathrick kloeri chii acieroid clog_ qidush_ bohanlon setheus_ cpt_nemo esden foom guenthr Guest67387 herbieB ramus` PissedNumlock tic krappie rsynnott specbot felipe prip _3b` vsync frodef pixel5 23:54:18 Sikander: No, it looks like I didn't have HEAD checked out when I made the changes. 23:54:28 D'oh! 23:54:30 Nuts... 23:54:33 Hmmm, donuts... 23:55:44 I'm not sufficiently a git wizard to know what to do here. 23:55:56 *LiamH* mosies on over to #git 23:57:24 LiamH: Move the local changes to a separate branch, re-pull master, rebase your branch, push your branch's changes as master to the remote, then re-pull master? 23:57:35 LiamH: Ok. I just came home after a _looong_ day working hard in the lab, and it's 1am again. Time for me to turn in. 23:57:41 nyef: Nice :) 23:57:44 nyef: Yeah, I was going to try something like that. 23:57:54 I'm just guessing here myself, really. 23:58:14 LiamH: So I'll look this stuff over tomorrow, ok? 23:58:20 nyef: only it's easier, since the patch is literally one emacs keystroke, I don't need to save it, I can redo it. 23:58:24 But after one disaster involving making changes on master and syncing up I've always done my stuff on a local branch. 23:58:25 LiamH: Then add the test forms _with_ strides. 23:58:46 Goodnight 23:58:50 Sikander: goodnight 23:58:56 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to sleep"] 23:58:58 -!- m7d [n=lriley@pool-71-102-232-43.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:59:28 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-69-221-161-162.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]