00:00:37 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:00:58 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:48 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.146.13] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:03 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:16 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:05:23 usesec [n=usesec@80-254-73-139.dynamic.swissvpn.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:25 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 00:05:27 LISP FUCKING SUCKS 00:05:27 as 00:05:28 s 00:05:28 df 00:05:29 f 00:05:31 ds 00:05:33 d 00:05:37 sa 00:05:39 as 00:05:41 as 00:05:43 s 00:05:45 s 00:06:26 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 00:06:33 usesec: I suggest you get a new Backspace key. 00:06:41 why 00:06:42 WHY 00:06:45 WHYYYYYY!Y!?????1111111 00:08:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 00:08:17 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:22 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:14 ... 00:09:46 *p_l* sends the Sussman snake after usesec, watching it slither while screaming Have you read your SICP today? 00:09:48 anyway 00:09:53 no 00:09:54 NO 00:09:55 LIAR 00:09:57 LAIOIISAIIAS 00:10:03 anyway 00:10:07 is lisp good? 00:10:28 usesec: common lisp? I'd say very good. Takes some time to get used to, but less than Haskell 00:10:51 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has quit ["brb"] 00:11:04 minion: tell usesec about pcl 00:11:05 usesec: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:11:11 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:17 hmm 00:11:18 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 00:11:19 is it quick? 00:11:21 that's the book that I used to finally "get through" 00:11:25 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*n=usesec@*.dynamic.swissvpn.net 00:11:28 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has been kicked from #lisp 00:11:39 :-o 00:11:44 *p_l* notices that he is waaay too lenient on trolls 00:12:27 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 00:12:39 compared to Xach, even bilbo baggins is lenient on trolls 00:13:04 ... oh 00:13:12 -!- jenia [n=jenia@modemcable148.172-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:13:59 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 00:14:28 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:31 what did i miss? 00:15:32 Adlai: xach is much more permissive that I would be. 00:15:42 I just got back from something or other 00:15:56 *Xach* is sad nikodemus's blog is still super-broken 00:17:44 Ok, I did my part of findings. WITH-POINTER-TO-VECTOR data returns a pointer that the kernel -EFAULTs on. 00:18:29 That, within SB-SYS:WITHOUT-GCING and the W-P-T-V-D itself does a weaker SB-SYS:WITH-PINNED-OBJECTS. 00:20:32 And I look at /proc/$pid/maps and the -EFAULT-ed upon address is covered. 00:20:48 ..and I just looked a bit more, and the region is marked read-only. 00:20:52 Aha. 00:21:00 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:11 <``Erik> ²/cl -a 00:21:59 Now, wtf SBCL allocates my array in a read-only area? 00:22:24 so that GC faults on writes and the refs are updated? 00:22:29 deepfire: write barriers for the generational gc. 00:22:39 Aha, so I guessed it right. 00:23:03 Now, how do I have the thing writable? 00:23:31 let the runtime handle the falt 00:23:36 *fault. It should only happen once. 00:23:57 pkhuong, but I give the kernel the ref, and it misinterprets the read-only-ness 00:24:25 A workaround would be to set any one element to something before passing it to the kernel. 00:24:43 I'm passing the cffi:with-pointer-to-vector-data'd array to ioctl. 00:24:45 You could write to the vector (every 4KB) while in w/o-gcing, from lisp. The other option is to make sure you allocate a large enough (> 16KB) unboxed vector. 00:25:12 Finally, you could file a bug report with the kernel. We have defined a handler for memory faults, why doesn't it get called? 00:26:25 pkhuong, do you think it's ok to interrupt a syscall to handle a fault? 00:27:04 Is the actual internal representation (as bits) of integers specified in the spec? More specifically, I noticed that doing (ldb (byte x 0) -1) results in 2**x - 1. Can I rely on this behaviour, or is this undefined behaviour? 00:27:04 at least trigger the handler and return from the syscall with an error value. 00:27:14 deepfire: Well, the basic option is to, within your without-gcing, stomp array elements at a machine page size stride, forcing the entire array to be in read/write space. 00:27:15 userspace -> (kernel -> userspace -> kernel) ->userspace, sounds a bit "uhh" 00:27:20 -!- Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:27:39 ljames: 2's complement is specified by the spec (at least in as much as you can see via bitwise operations). 00:27:40 Yeah, that sequence is a bit "uhh", but proper PCLSRing might help. :-/ 00:27:45 ljames, I think the spec requires that those functions behave as though integers are in a Two's Complement representation 00:27:51 Maybe we need an "ensure array contents writable" API? 00:27:51 ah, good 00:28:03 nyef, pkhuong, don't we need a sorta generic workaround for that in CFFI? 00:28:36 deepfire: I blame a sucky abstraction that's not on my side here. 00:28:57 pkhuong, I see two solutions here 00:29:14 1. we write a coprehensive summary and mail it to lkml 00:29:22 2. we suck it up and write a workaround in CFFI 00:29:48 <_3b> probably both, since most people will have old kernels anwyay 00:29:56 Right. 00:30:18 For 1 we need an eloquent, motivated person. 00:30:50 I rather expect that the kernel people would just point and laugh. I know I would. 00:30:51 I'm motivated, but I'm unsure of my capacity to word it properly. I can try though. 00:31:14 nyef, whaa, what side of barricades are you on, again?! 00:32:12 Ok, that wasn't serious. 00:32:43 it's approaching 4AM here, i wanna go home :-) 00:34:08 People, say something. Should I write a summary for sbcl-devel, or is what I said here enough? 00:36:17 EDONTCARE, frankly. At this point, maybe you should consider using the C heap. 00:36:20 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:36:28 IMHO you will not get the kernel changed. 99% of the time, an attempt to write to r/o memory is simply an error. 00:36:29 No, no... There's a good reason not to use the C heap. 00:37:06 So the question is, does SBCL provide an API for forcing a pinned heap object to be in r/w memory and, if not, should it? 00:37:26 And then you run into the case of, for large arrays, -which bits- do you need to have writable? 00:37:30 -!- poon [i=poon__@12.14.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:37:42 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:01 *Fare* tries the XCVB automatically tested release and hopes it works... 00:38:11 sorry, it's not a kernel bug 00:38:18 There is 0% chance you'll get the kernel changed 00:38:27 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:38:30 And it's essential in two places. One of them is talking to something like the linux kernel which will simply pitch a fit. And the other is on systems with windows/vms style exception handling, where any alien code can also pitch a fit. 00:38:35 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:52 it returns -EFAULT: if you want it to retry, check the error code and retry the syscall. 00:39:06 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:39:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:24 foom: sure, but does it trigger the handler before returning? 00:39:28 Sure, but does... yeah. 00:39:29 of course not. 00:39:35 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 00:39:46 the handler isn't a "memory isn't readable" handler, it's a SIGSEGV handler 00:39:47 So you still need a mechanism by which to force the memory writable. 00:40:02 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:40:02 you can call the handler yourself if you like. :) 00:40:49 Sure. Or you could trigger it by generating write accesses on the underlying memory. My point is that it's a well-enough-defined operation with a clear-cut need that should be provided by the base system. 00:41:03 -!- ntd [n=user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:41 that syscalls don't trigger SIGSEGV is a well-known attribute of unix systems by now. It's probably even in the POSIX standards. So, it's not gonna change, even if you might think it nice. :) 00:42:02 I'm not arguing that. I meant the base lisp system, not the base host system. 00:42:12 ah, yes. 00:42:21 Since it's the lisp heap that needs to be consistent with respect to this invariant. 00:43:07 deepfire: I'd go home, and send a summary to sbcl-devel tomorrow. 00:43:17 nyef, :-) 00:43:22 nyef: I smell concurrency issues, if you can't flag the region 00:43:53 "start working on your writable object, another thread triggers GC, you lose" 00:44:01 Fare: w/o-gcing 00:44:06 I would perform idempotent atomic writes to the vector with a large stride, and call it a day. 00:44:37 <_3b> don't you still have a race between when you mark it and when it is used? 00:44:40 pkhuong, oh, right. So first w/o-gcing, and inside, touch the region, then call the kernel. 00:45:00 _3b, enter w/o-gcing, mark, use 00:45:32 Right, I'd perform idempotent atomic writes as well, but I'd do so as an API somewhere in SB-ALIEN or SB-KERNEL. 00:45:34 <_3b> so it assumes use is cheap? 00:46:30 <_3b> why not just have marking writable as an option when pinning?' 00:46:30 Alternately, I'd provide an entry into the GC to mark a given page range as dirty and writable and use that instead of the series of writes. 00:46:38 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:20 Sure, that'd work, but it'd still need to be part of the implementation. 00:47:22 eric` [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 00:47:36 -!- eric` [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has left #lisp 00:47:36 nyef: the writes are a tiny hack that gets things working. For official inclusion, hooking directly in the GC would likely be neater. 00:48:18 And we have to decide how to handle > 1 page objects. Or do we only offer that on vectors? 00:48:27 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:48:44 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-93.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:49:15 Your only use-case is on vectors. 00:49:41 Yeah, it seems like the with-pinned-objects needs a :writable t option 00:49:47 If you want more complex arrays, you still pass a pointer to the underlying vector around. 00:50:07 it shouldn't need to disable GC entirely, just ensure that that object doesn't get marked read-only. 00:50:11 And passing any data structure other than an array of unboxed values is gagging for trouble. 00:50:11 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:50:57 nyef: but then, why not a souped-up make-array that guarantees the unboxed vector doesn't ever get write protected? 00:51:35 Shamwow [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 00:51:44 Less local a change, sure. 00:52:33 Far less a local change, and one that affects allocation, which in turn can affect your API if you're writing a library. 00:52:57 Xach: assuming the simplest asd system (:serial t), should I go through and (in-package 'shamwow) at the start of each of the files? Is there something in particular that needs to be done? 00:53:35 There's a big difference between saying "make sure your UAET is ub-8" and saying "make sure your UAET is ub-8 and you used this particular system-specific array creation function instead of the standard one". 00:54:23 So you wrap your array creation, but it's still an extra system dependency beyond merely wrapping with-pinned-objects or whatever. 00:55:04 <_3b> Shamwow: you should have that anyway,asdf and packages are completely unrelated 00:55:10 less overhead in the common case than w/-p-o :writable t. 00:55:28 Shamwow, you should 00:55:46 _3b: is that to say that each file I want in my package should begin with (in-package...) or is it enough to do so at the top of the first file? 00:55:47 especially in the case of incremental compilation 00:56:04 Shamwow: each file should have its in-package 00:56:10 Btw, http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/darcs/cffi/doc/shareable-vectors.txt 00:56:13 <_3b> Shamwow: "package" refers to the object created with DEFPACKAGE, which is a mapping of names to symbols 00:56:16 or else SBCL and SLIME will both cry. 00:56:29 <_3b> Shamwow: ASDF manages 'systems' which are groupings of files and dependencies 00:56:56 nyef, it doesn't have to be a system dependency -- can be hidden behind CFFI. 00:57:18 Sure, but... It's still extra user overhead. 00:57:34 _3b: I'm still confused, as I thought that (in-package...) changes the *package* such that all further definitions are loaded into the package I chose... but if I have to do so at the top of each file, then the (in-package...) is not persistent 00:57:40 Anyway, I'm sortof done for the night. 00:57:46 *deepfire* too 00:58:47 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:59:59 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8272.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:22 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:00:57 <_3b> Shamwow: right, it only lasts for one file (probably, don't remember if that is required or not, and might depend on how you load it) 01:01:22 <_3b> Shamwow: you want it there anyway though, so C-c C-c works on functions in that file from slime, or for incremental compilation, or whatever 01:01:29 Shamwow, mind that *package* is locally bound around a compilation, and that in the case of incremental loads, the load/compile order is not constant. 01:02:02 Shamwow, plus SBCL may have to generate extra code in its FASLs if there is no in-package 01:02:10 and SLIME will be confused. 01:02:38 <_3b> human readers will probably be confused too :) 01:03:11 _3b: As I understand it, the (defpackage...) is at the top of some one-off file i.e. shamwow.lisp to define dependencies: (defpackage #:shamwow (:use #:cl #:cl-graph)), then the shamwow.asd file contains the (defsystem...) to define the components, and to once-again define the dependencies? 01:03:37 <_3b> no, defpackage doesn't define dependencies 01:03:51 <_3b> it includes exported symbols from another package into the package being defined 01:03:53 Fare: that works for me, I'm still having trouble identifying the places to put file and package dependencies 01:04:29 <_3b> Shamwow: you could just as (well, almost as) easily use those symbols with a package prefix, for example cl-graph:foo 01:04:46 _3b: I know the two are different, but I'm not sure how. If a package requires symbols exported from another, is that not another way of saying it "depends" on it? 01:04:57 <_3b> Shamwow: in that case, it wouldn't be listed in the DEFPACKAGE, but you would still need it loaded before you ran that code, which is what the dependency in the .asd handles 01:05:47 _3b: the defpackage only loads symbols, the .asd compiles the code of the required packages? 01:06:06 <_3b> Shamwow: importing symbols creates a dependency, it doesn't specify one (if that makes any sense) 01:06:25 <_3b> the .asd loads systems, which probably define packages 01:07:02 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-180.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 01:07:17 Shamwow, see xcvb/hello 01:08:12 Fare: not sure where that means 01:08:24 common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/hello? 01:12:44 (herep LiamH) 01:12:53 t 01:13:43 I updated my GSLL repository to the lastest and ran it with my local copy of lisp-unit that is the expanded-interface branch. It reported 12 failed tests, is that about right? 01:14:27 -!- Shamwow [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has left #lisp 01:14:33 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:15:06 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:15:08 tmh: It depends. I'm getting 6 for debian stable, sbcl 1.0.18.debian, and 10 for debian testing, sbcl 1.0.31.32. And the intersection is the null set, or close to it. 01:15:42 asteaf [n=raekle@unaffiliated/romani] has joined #lisp 01:15:45 tmh: So 12 seems a little high but in the right neighborhood. 01:16:39 LiamH: Ok, I would like to merge the expanded-interface branch back into master. It shouldn't effect you, the interface to numerical-equal hasn't changed, but didn't want to create problems. 01:16:57 tmh: Sounds good. 01:17:02 Shamwow: in the xcvb checkout, xcvb/test/hello 01:17:57 once you bootstrapped xcvb, you can create the asd file with "make xcvb-hello.asd" 01:18:58 LiamH: I'll get that done tonight and then try to get the documentation updated. As far as approximating compare_complex_complex, wrap the assert-float-equal form with a (let ((*measure* :infinity)) ...) and then the differences should be minimal. 01:19:12 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-xzbiabhmfbxjuggm] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:39 I should clarify that I probably won't get to the documentation update until the end of this week. 01:19:40 tmh: You mean to emulate GSL's compare_complex_results? 01:20:12 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has left #lisp 01:20:14 while testing xcvb-master, I have "interesting" issues with incompatibilities between versions of ASDF :-( 01:20:29 LiamH: Yes, that will make the norm on the sequence the same and then the only difference will be in the element-wise error calculation, but that difference is minimal. 01:20:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:20:35 (that I work around by avoiding ASDF wholesale, and hence avoiding cl-launch) 01:20:51 Shamwow [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 01:21:00 tmh: OK 01:21:22 LiamH: I'm sorry, not float-equal, norm-equal. 01:21:43 There's assert-norm-equal. 01:21:59 Desperately need to update the documentaion. 01:22:38 _3b: I've gotten as far as (require 'asdf) followed by (require 'project) loading successfully... however, after that nothing is loaded from the 'project package. I have to go through and manually C-c C-c every function I want to use. The *package* is set correctly, but for some reason the loading of the files never happens... any ideas? 01:23:13 tmh: I think I'm just using assert-numerical-equal for my other vector tests. Is that wrong? 01:23:31 <_3b> lisppaste: url 01:23:31 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 01:23:39 <_3b> Shamwow: paste some code there ^ 01:24:00 <_3b> Shamwow: the .asd in particular 01:24:32 <_3b> Shamwow: or try printing stuff from your .lisp files, to see if they get loaded 01:24:41 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:49 *Fare* finds more subtle option combinations that break cl-launch (when both resuming from an image then dumping another) but is too lazy to add a test and fix it. 01:25:02 Shamwow: remember that symbols are in whatever package you setup and (in-package ...)'d. They probably aren't exported, so you'll have to use :: instead of :. 01:25:45 LiamH: Hmm, reviewing numerical-equal, and actually it does the correct thing. I was getting it confused with number-equal. 01:25:50 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:26:02 Shamwow pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90075 01:26:51 LiamH: The expanded interface has float-equal and norm-equal. float-equal is for float and complex float, norm equal is for sequences and arrays. 01:26:54 <_3b> Shamwow: you might also try moving the DEFPACKAGE form into a package.lisp and putting that first in the .asd components list 01:26:59 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:27:22 tmh: sequences and arrays of what? 01:27:25 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 01:27:48 _3b: md.lisp is what I've used isntead of package.lisp. Is there a specific reason to use package.lisp? 01:28:04 <_3b> does md.lisp only have the defpackage form? 01:28:20 _3b: yes, followed by an in-package (which doesn't seem to do much) 01:28:41 LiamH: sequences and arrays of floats and '(complex floats). The assert-norm-equal enables you to specify the type of norm to use, all element-wise norms. I've implemented the 1-norm, 2-norm, p-norm and infinity-norm. 01:28:43 <_3b> well, in-package only affects the rest of the file, so doesn't matter ifthere is nothing else in the file 01:28:49 right 01:28:54 <_3b> the name of the file doesn't matter thuogh 01:29:08 LiamH: Need to get the kids to bed, I'll be back in about 1 hour, if you're still up. 01:29:22 tmh: I should be. 01:29:32 Shamwow, using a package.lisp is cleaner, especially is plenty of files will depend on it 01:29:43 <_3b> Shamwow: all the other files sart with (in-package ... ? 01:29:59 _3b: I'm running sbcl, and so with the (require 'asdf) in the .asd, I assumed that all I'd have to do is (require 'md), and then switch to (in-package 'md) to get access to the other stuff... 01:30:06 _3b: yes, they all have the in-package 01:30:47 <_3b> (require 'asdf) in the .asd doesn't help, since you need asdf to find the .asd and load it :p 01:30:58 _3b: right ;^) 01:31:10 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:35 -!- coyo [i=alex@70.254.188.61] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 01:33:35 _3b: I'm not sure of the order, but if I type out (require 'asdf) and (require 'md) enough times at the repl I get to the point where I want to be... 01:34:27 -!- Shamwow [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has left #lisp 01:34:56 Shamwow [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 01:37:02 Yay! xcvb .435 is the first release that passed automatic regression-testing validation (after debugging the automatic validation). 01:37:05 -!- garslo [n=user@99.54.133.82] has left #lisp 01:37:42 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:37:43 Shamwow: Usually something like (require :asdf) goes in your lisp's init file. 01:38:50 sellout: I've got it in there... what's the basic command to get asdf to load up a system? 01:41:14 Shamwow: Using slime? 01:41:43 ,l system-name 01:42:29 deepfire: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/iolib/static-vectors.git may be useful to you 01:42:59 (that's "l" for "load-system", you can write the whole thing or tab-complete it, but it'll work as long as it's a unique prefix) 01:43:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:43:20 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:43:31 sellout: still for some reason it won't load any of the symbols 01:43:53 Shamwow: How are you testing if the symbols are loaded? 01:44:15 sellout: switching to the right *package* and then trying one of the functions 01:44:54 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-114-8.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 01:45:17 Shamwow: sounds right. I'm happy to take a look at your code. 01:45:36 sellout: let me try to post it... in a minute 01:49:03 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:44 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 01:52:12 sellout: see http://github.com/eshamay/lisp-md 01:52:36 the package.asd is where it begins (md.asd is a symlink) 01:52:55 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-103-143.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:54:40 redblue [i=star@ppp138.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:55:57 you don't describe package.lisp in your .asd 01:56:36 oh, it's in md.lisp 01:56:42 that's confusing 01:57:14 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:18 stassats: I suppose that could easily switch... 01:58:08 and why do you think it's a good idea for .asd file having name package.asd, but not md.asd? 01:58:39 stassats: there's a symlink from md.asd -> package.asd 01:58:54 i know, but what for? 01:59:18 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:23 I saw a setup using a single package.asd, and then defining multiple systems within it, and multiple symlinks to it for each project/system 01:59:43 Shamwow: but you're doing the reverse. 01:59:51 so, define (defsystem #:md...) and (defsystem #:foo) and have foo.asd and md.asd point to package.asd 02:00:18 pkhuong: not sure how you mean 02:00:26 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:01:19 Shamwow: oh right, never mind, I misread the arrow. 02:02:00 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:02:05 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:03:29 i don't know whether this setup confuses asdf, but it confuses me 02:03:50 stassats`: I've renamed things and pushed the updated one to github... 02:04:26 and does it work now? 02:04:41 hmmm... 02:04:44 let's see 02:04:48 -!- Shamwow [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has left #lisp 02:05:43 Shamwow [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 02:05:59 rstandy`` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-121-201.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 02:06:05 nope... 02:06:17 package.lisp seems to never get read 02:06:19 Shamwow: there seems to be a ')' missing at the end of package.asd 02:06:51 Wait. 02:06:53 sellout: doh! 02:07:01 it's closed by )) in depends-on 02:07:03 You have it after (#:cl-graph) instead 02:07:04 . 02:07:05 yeah 02:07:30 damn... I should have caught that 02:07:32 thanks 02:07:43 In CCL, I get an error when I try to load that .asd file. 02:08:29 Shamwow: paredit is awesome, you should try it. 02:08:31 I get errors, but nothing about the asd file 02:08:35 you should have used emacs and paredit 02:08:52 hmmm... is that another emacs module? 02:09:18 the only think I dislike about paredit is that it tends to lock itself if it happens upon unbalanced parens... 02:09:23 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-15-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 02:09:29 Shamwow: structured editing mode for S-expressions 02:10:01 p_l: I thought it just refused to turn on paredit mode if you open a file with unbalanced parens. 02:10:20 what if you paste unbalanced code? 02:10:28 fe[nl]ix, how does the make-obj of your static-vector play with the GC? 02:10:48 you seem to be faking GCable objects in the C heap -- does that even work? 02:10:52 stassats: Then you have C-q ) a few times to fix it :) 02:10:58 Or something. 02:11:13 -!- Shamwow [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:17 and C-u C-d 02:11:26 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:31 Anyway, disaster averted, back to noveling. Can't let gigamonkey keep mocking me. 02:11:33 attila_lendvai, I kind of volunteered you to try ECL's patched asdf.lisp if juanjo merges it with the latest. 02:11:43 Pity my skills in elisp are so abysmal, I'd add to highlighting of broken parens :) 02:11:53 sellout, mocking you? 02:12:23 Fare: Well, not really, but he's blown past my word count, so it feels that way. 02:12:41 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:00 Fare, work a bit on your management skills, i've never seen anything ecl related... :) 02:13:16 shamwow [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 02:13:25 okay, that seems to have cleaned it up. 02:13:27 ! 02:13:35 Thanks for all the eyes and insight 02:13:43 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CC20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 02:14:54 attila_lendvai, it's more about having a sane nested asdf::traverse that allows for nicer testing. 02:15:06 Fare: what parts from ECL came in? 02:15:29 p_l, the ECL maintainer needed a saner asdf to support his linking model 02:15:49 *attila_lendvai* realizes he misparsed that sentence... 02:15:53 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-114-8.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:16:39 anyway the idea is that 1- making asdf saner requires backwards incompatibility at some level, but 02:16:57 2- in practice no one will see the difference (unless they insist on insanity) 02:17:33 so if we can prove 2 within reasonable bounds, we open the road to a saner ASDF. 02:18:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:18:12 Fare: And then we can replace it altogether. :) The asdf:traverse patch in ECL actually came about because I tried to port a project called paktahn to it and it wouldn't build. 02:18:16 attila_lendvai, btw, your issues with the xcvb master should now be solved thanks to the regression test suite that located it for me. 02:18:40 great 02:18:47 *attila_lendvai* goes and pulls 02:19:16 if you experience trouble, I'll add a case to the regression test suite :) 02:21:04 note however that there WILL be trouble if e.g. you use incompatible versions of asdf to setup an image (with e.g. cl-launch) and later to be loaded by the xcvb-master (e.g. some build depending on cl-launch). 02:21:06 argh... you didn't merge in my changes, which are not rebase-able anymore 02:21:12 gah! 02:21:19 where were those changes? 02:21:32 sorry, I mightn't have seen them. 02:21:39 in your mailing list, a git pull away... :) 02:21:44 :-( 02:22:01 actually, i'm not sure about a mail, but i did advertise them in some form 02:23:06 I can't find it easily in my mail archive. 02:23:35 -!- asteaf [n=raekle@unaffiliated/romani] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:23:42 if you send me a diff, I can try to merge it manually 02:24:16 then you can "just" drop your branch/checkout and restart from my master. 02:24:17 hrm, actually git managed to merge using some 3-way whatever 02:24:31 let me try to bootstrap it 02:24:40 what changes were there? 02:25:34 just a sec, if the bootstrap works, i'll push them to dwim.hu 02:26:36 you try to "make test" and it might work... 02:29:55 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:30:59 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:31:38 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 02:32:17 *attila_lendvai* fetches a release 02:33:14 yeah, you need the new ADG and maybe the new cl-launch to go with it. 02:34:21 LiamH: The lisp-unit support desk is open. 02:34:37 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:54 tmh: OK! Kids in bed? 02:35:28 LiamH: Um, in bed, but not asleep. :-) They may require a couple reminders, but shouldn't be a problem. 02:35:53 tmh: Read them a bedtime story, something from PCL. 02:36:43 LiamH: We read *2* books. I literally just found the book Pro Git, available online. I think I'm going to dig into it. 02:37:05 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-220-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:37:16 *attila_lendvai* installs zsh 02:37:25 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Operation timed out] 02:37:40 sorry about that. But zsh is good. 02:37:47 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:38:11 tmh: Actually, I don't think I have lisp-unit questions. I need to write some tests, but I think it should be OK to just use assert-numerical-equal. 02:39:22 LiamH: Ah, good. When the documentation is updated, it should be more clear what is available. I also think a tutorial would be very helpful. Give a better overview of how to use, best practices, that kind of thing. 02:39:30 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp138.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:39:56 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-15-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:13 -!- rstandy`` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-121-201.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:41:52 tessier [n=treed@216.105.40.113] has joined #lisp 02:41:58 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:43:00 Grrr. Complex math was not introduced until 1.12 (at my request), and I only have 1.11 on this computer. 02:43:37 Fare, "A good starting project would be to build a test suite for XCVB itself." -- i'm looking for docs on how to run the tests and what to expect... make test errors, seemingly not building my xcvb checkout, while 'make' also installs it (still?) 02:43:55 :( 02:44:20 the tests have no docs beyond the source right now :( 02:44:29 LiamH: Really? I find that a little surprising. How long did it take them to implement? 02:44:34 can you mail or lisp-paste the full error log? 02:45:06 tmh: After I requested it? Not long. It seemed to be something of an oversight; once it was pointed out, they put it in. 02:45:12 it relies on a bunch of environment variables, which is probably wrong. Do you have a XCVB_PATH? 02:45:25 Fare, i think the issue is that the tests assume a different setup and don't use XCVB_PATH? bootstrap seems to have worked, make test fails with "component :CLOSER-MOP not found" 02:45:31 yes 02:45:49 what does xcvb ssp say about closer-mop ? 02:45:54 LiamH: Everyone was probably doing the standard work-around when there aren't complex data types and it was just a matter of collecting the pieces. 02:46:00 tmh: So now I'm thinking I'll generate the DFT vector once at the beginning, and write it out to the test file. Then the regression test can be on the FFT, which after all what we want to check. 02:46:30 although component :CLOSER-MOP sounds more like your ASDF is not setup properly, using ASDF or POIU as backend. 02:47:05 Fare, yes, my asdf is bare when doing that... i wasn't aware of that prerequisite 02:47:11 LiamH: I noticed the discussion in the logs. I think that is the correct decision. For some of my stuff, I'll perform a solution in Maxima and then store the literal results. 02:47:24 should be documented better. 02:47:35 -!- tessier [n=treed@216.105.40.113] has quit ["leaving"] 02:47:37 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 02:47:44 tessier [n=treed@216.105.40.113] has joined #lisp 02:47:56 I blame the package author! 02:47:57 tmh: The trouble is, the GSL tests generate both results together, so I can't mimic them completely. 02:48:16 LiamH: The reason I implemented the assert-sigfig-equal was to support unit testing against solutions in books. 02:48:28 *tmh* has to go remind some monkeys that its bedtime. 02:48:35 attila_lendvai, you might have to edit configure.mk to make asdf happy. 02:48:46 Fare, i value guessable behavior much more than docs 02:49:00 no idea how to change it though 02:49:18 how to change what? configure.mk ? 02:49:41 probably need to add --path FOO options to your CL_LAUNCH_FLAGS 02:50:04 until it finds closer-mop and all other dependencies 02:50:11 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:50:18 note that the release-tarball should come preconfigured 02:50:23 with working values 02:50:56 Fare, change the behavior so that i would have expected that tests need a working asdf setup 02:50:58 I value guessable behavior, too -- but mind you, I somehow guessed all that XCVB should have been doing. 02:51:50 attila_lendvai, I'm unsure what change in what behavior would make you happy. 02:52:07 Detecting that ASDF is misconfigured, and aborting with a special message if it isn't? 02:52:44 Fare, ...that, or a fat message at the beginning like "Starting asdf based tests..." 02:53:04 not that you have much chance for a reasonable output with make, but... :) 02:54:40 And... back 02:55:50 tmh: sound asleep? 02:56:23 Fare, xvcb-devel mail sent with the repo url 02:56:27 Can anyone recommend a Git book? Pro Git is available online, so that's probably a good choice, but there's also 'Pragmatic Version Control Using Git'. 02:56:30 redblue [i=star@ppp016.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:56:32 LiamH: Hah, right. 02:57:04 tmh: Join #git & ask 02:57:10 Fare, although i still can not load rfc2388-binary (my xcvb test), so please test those changes before including in a release 02:57:36 ...but it's 4am here 8/ 02:57:48 LiamH: Yeah, ok. 02:58:11 tmh: Wait, there is a book I've seen that's pretty good. 02:58:16 attila_lendvai, what's failing with the loading of rfc2388-binary ? 02:59:01 tmh: I guess you know about http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/user-manual.html 02:59:02 I didn't get the mail. The mailing-list must be slow. 02:59:29 Fare, "User requested build "/RFC2388-BINARY" but it can't be found.", although it used to start loading it. i have *xcvb-path* set in my master 02:59:44 Fare, http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=xcvb;a=summary 02:59:52 LiamH: Yes, there's probably no reason to buy a book. But, sometimes a good book can make things clear. 03:00:34 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:00:44 tmh: I don't think there is a paper book on git. I'd like "Git, the definitive guide" but it doesn't exist. I think because git is still changing. 03:01:23 man, did ths just crib from cmucl's backend, or did he write all these bits himself? 03:02:29 LiamH, "Git, the definitive guide" will never be printed, the greens will veto that... :) 03:02:44 attila_lendvai, how come it's uppercase? 03:02:53 LiamH: I'm still struggling to buy into Git, darcs is just so simple. I've realized that what I need to do is learn the subset of Git commands (using the vcs rosetta page) that correspond to darcs and go from there. The big thing with Git is branching, which I don't seem to be able to do reliably. 03:02:57 attila_lendvai, did you use a keyword instead of a string? 03:03:06 *attila_lendvai* checks 03:03:11 attila_lendvai: fine, all they need to do is check the text into a git repo, I can clone it. 03:03:39 oh, hm, maybe he wanted to keep the backend working on a 32-bit FPR chip. argh. 03:04:20 tmh: Yes, I think the complexity of git stems from its flexibility in odd situations; if you don't have those, you should be able to get by with a small subset of commands. 03:04:34 Fare, yes, that was the issue, i used (xcvbm:build-and-load :rfc2388-binary) 03:05:57 attila_lendvai, also, do you use the branch master or something else? 03:06:08 tmh: re branching, if your problem is with syncing local and remote branches, you absolutely need grb http://github.com/webmat/git_remote_branch 03:06:11 tmh, don't worry, git branching is a headache for others too, especially if they use tools that rely on the file write date... 03:06:19 Fare, hu.dwim 03:06:52 should I pull hu.dwim:master ? 03:07:29 Fare, master is clean, my changes are in the hu.dwim branch (that's a namespace prefix we tend to use nowadays everywhere) 03:08:46 LiamH: Thanks, I look over it. My biggest problem, though, is having the correct concept of how to work with multiple branches. How to switch between them, make sure I'm using the correct one, understand what happens to the repository when I switch branches. 03:09:08 What happens to the files in my directory when I switch. 03:09:18 attila_lendvai, any reason to use 'foo instead of #'foo ? 03:09:32 Fare, helps debugging 03:10:01 tmh: yeah, that can be tricky. Basically, when you do git checkout on a local branch, it instantly switches all your files. If you doubt where you are, do git branch -a and it will list all branches with a star by the current one. 03:10:17 although i'm not sure sbcl really resolves #' at compile time. last time i seem to have experienced something else... 03:11:54 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:11:57 Fare, is it normal: my xcvb exe is mush-much bigger when installing from my bootstrap than installing from a release tarball 03:12:20 getting bad ping response from dwim.hu :( 03:12:27 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:12:53 Fare, i know, the network still sucks, it's a lousy ADSL 03:13:03 -!- asdfasd is now known as TR2N 03:13:39 -!- TR2N is now known as X-Scale 03:14:03 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-82.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:14:48 Fare, make sure you use the git:// protocol, that's better with bad network 03:14:59 attila_lendvai, pushed. 03:15:30 attila_lendvai, how much bigger? 03:15:47 is one case using a script wrapper with the actual image in .../image/xcvb.image ? 03:16:08 Fare, 11739 / 52822064 03:16:16 probably 03:16:33 ok, i'm getting actually useful error backtraces 03:16:37 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:17:37 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:17:56 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 03:18:55 hehe, i see xcvb in action: pulled command-line-arguments and bootstrapping it only compiled one fasl... :) 03:18:59 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:20:32 :) 03:20:45 tsuru` [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:57 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:02 marioxcc` [n=user@201.132.49.12] has joined #lisp 03:22:50 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.49.12] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-172.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- qsun [n=qsun@67.223.233.193] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- hdurer_ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-feijqnuhqxaelknv] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- hdurer__ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ygucrkchjdgaftbl] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- _3b [i=foobar@70.112.214.100] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- wgl_ [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- aking [n=aking@67.23.13.119] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- EinarDogfin [n=plyryan@pool-71-113-49-75.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- highb_ [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@60.234.133.173] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- housel [n=user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@173.45.238.209] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:50 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:22:58 stepnem_ [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 03:23:06 -!- marioxcc` is now known as marioxcc 03:23:14 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:23:14 fatalnix1995_ [n=Fatalnix@spirit.georgix.info] has joined #lisp 03:23:23 attila pasted "xcvb failure for Fare" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90079 03:23:36 Fare, does it ring any bells? 03:23:43 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:23:54 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 03:23:59 qsun [n=qsun@67.223.233.193] has joined #lisp 03:24:04 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:06 aking [n=aking@67.23.13.119] has joined #lisp 03:24:10 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 03:24:21 jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 03:24:25 jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:01 didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 03:25:35 no, but I can kind of guess the kind of horror involved. 03:25:40 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:25:57 something where a variable is exported to an empty string instead of being unset 03:26:01 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 03:26:06 cl-launch should be testing for that. 03:26:50 in the meantime, can you export LISP_FASL_CACHE=NIL instead of LISP_FASL_CACHE= ? 03:26:56 Fare, is cl-launch crucial, even on sbcl that can save executables? 03:27:26 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:28:07 well, cl-launch is how I currently abstract away those details. 03:28:22 EinarDogfin [n=plyryan@pool-71-113-49-75.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:22 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 03:28:25 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 03:28:29 metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:30 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 03:28:31 highb [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #lisp 03:28:38 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:28:41 it could be done away with, given proper coding, but not the lowest hanging fruit. 03:28:44 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:28:48 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:29:16 Fare, just mildly pointing out that cl-launch was quite often part of headaches... :) 03:29:31 -!- salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:45 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:29:47 fyi, as far as i can see LISP_FASL_CACHE is not set in my env 03:30:20 what about LISP_FASL_ROOT ? SBCL_HOME ? 03:30:40 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:31:09 attila_lendvai, cl-launch is part of a lot of headaches for me, too :) 03:31:22 but not using it is often worse. 03:31:37 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 03:32:04 probably you have 80% of cl-launch incompatibly reimplemented in your own ad-hoc scripts. 03:32:24 (and it took you 1% of the effort) 03:33:08 i had a stale cl-launch, i'm trying with head 03:33:13 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:31 Bucciarati [n=buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:19 Fare, i meant, why do you need shell scripts when you can save executables? but this won't make xcvb better as i have no actual suggestion, i'm just lost on this issue... 03:35:15 attila_lendvai, you can pull, I just committed the nil case to cl-launch 03:35:32 attila_lendvai, 1- you can't save executables on all implementations 03:35:37 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:35:57 and/or you can't do it in a way that you fully control the command-line. 03:36:18 clisp gives you "almost" command-line control (with a backdoor) 03:36:25 ccl doesn't give it to you 03:36:46 gcl, allegro, lispworks... maybe maybe not, I haven't tried too hard. 03:37:13 and isn't there a way to easily shortcut and skip cl-launch on platforms where you have full control (sbcl?) 03:37:24 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:34 there could be, but then I'd need special logic. 03:37:36 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:37:40 once again, SMOP 03:38:37 eventually, I'd like to get rid of cl-launch altogether, and have XCVB do the same thing, only better. 03:38:42 Fare, fyi, i don't have SBCL_HOME set in my global env. is the slave inheriting what master returns from (sb-ext:posix-environ)? 03:38:44 but I'm not there yet. 03:38:55 yes the slave is. 03:39:02 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:39:25 oh my, maybe the putenv I have there is breaking things. 03:39:33 but why only for you and not for me??? 03:40:27 Fare, partial success: it built me a fasl with /usr/local/bin/sbcl that my master can not load, because it runs from ~/workspace/sbcl -- i'll try to come up with some logic to inherit the sbcl installation from the master to the slave somehow... 03:40:46 i think my previous message describes 03:41:18 attila_lendvai, usually I wrap my sbcl in a script that exports the correct SBCL_HOME 03:41:31 to avoid becoming crazy 03:41:55 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:42:20 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 03:43:02 oh yes, from master to slave... I think that sbcl has sb-ext:*core-pathname* and sb-ext:*runtime-pathname* that may help, to a point. 03:43:41 Fare, there's run-sbcl.sh in sbcl/ nowadays 03:44:49 I suppose xcvb-master could play tricks with these two variables. 03:45:10 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@96-26-39-1.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:13 Fare, but it's almost 5, so.... thanks for the assistance, i'm quite a few steps closer. i'll look into these sometimes later with my unusual setup... 03:45:31 good night, or day, or... 03:45:40 thanks a lot! 03:45:49 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:45:59 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:07 housel [n=nuser@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 03:47:43 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:47:56 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-172.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 03:47:56 ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 03:47:56 wgl_ [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 03:47:56 _3b [i=foobar@70.112.214.100] has joined #lisp 03:47:56 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 03:47:56 hdurer__ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ygucrkchjdgaftbl] has joined #lisp 03:47:56 hdurer_ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-feijqnuhqxaelknv] has joined #lisp 03:48:27 lemoinem [n=swoog@24.201.189.65] has joined #lisp 03:48:37 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:24 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 03:49:35 Fare, bah, i have a typo: rever-to-repl, missing t 03:50:11 doh 03:51:20 Fixing it in master... 03:52:29 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@203.110.238.16] has joined #lisp 03:52:32 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has joined #lisp 03:53:21 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:53:44 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 03:53:49 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:54:02 OT: anyone know of a citeseer clone that doesn't suck? 03:54:32 citeseer has been down for the last 24 hours for me :-/ 03:55:05 fusss: google scholar and a shell at a .edu. 03:55:20 no .edu connection here 03:57:00 -!- yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:57:44 yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 03:58:00 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:58:36 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 03:58:45 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:59:50 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@203.110.238.16] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:02 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dqnxdoqddfbzmcnt] has joined #lisp 04:01:12 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:01:52 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dqnxdoqddfbzmcnt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:01 pushed 04:02:22 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-usnisultzrwnscmm] has joined #lisp 04:02:34 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:55 WhiteFlam [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:06 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:26 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:13:05 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:13:17 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:13:27 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:13:53 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:14:58 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:15:19 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:39 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:17:52 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 04:18:09 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 04:18:44 good morning 04:19:13 Hmm... Ordinarily that's beach's line. 04:20:05 caoliver: beach's line _and_ beach's time. But I'm not another nick of strandh. :) 04:20:35 how do you know the latter? 04:23:00 stassats`: one day I noticed some different nicks with the meaning 'beach' in some different languages and asked him. 04:23:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:23:14 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@96-26-39-1.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [] 04:23:18 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-235.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:23:22 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:23:26 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:23:38 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:55 sam_ [n=sam_5365@ip68-109-124-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:58 kami-: that i know, but what if you are not just a nick, but a split personality? 04:25:45 Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-173-74-131.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 04:26:22 kami-` [n=user@p5B20E2ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:33 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:28:46 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 04:29:57 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:01 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:27 Good morning! 04:32:01 Good morning, beach! 04:32:08 I'm so happy to see you, here. 04:32:33 There are people on this channel who believe that I'm you! 04:32:46 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:33:12 Interesting! Does your name mean "beach"? 04:33:18 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:33:21 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 04:33:26 -!- Fare is now known as beach_ 04:33:29 Good morning! 04:33:31 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:33:47 Fare: very funny! 04:33:48 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:33:54 -!- beach_ is now known as Fare 04:33:57 They even consider the case that I (we) might suffer from Dissociative Identity Disorder! 04:34:21 I still don't know why they call it a disorder. :-P 04:34:52 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:34:53 beach: no, my name doesn't mean 'beach'. I only made the mistake of appearing here early and saying 'good morning' 04:35:00 "they"? why plural? i don't suffer from DID 04:35:28 kami-`: Ah, yes, I see that in the scrollbacks now. And it was the right time as well. 04:35:35 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:51 stassats`: but we do 04:35:53 :) 04:36:20 -!- sam_ [n=sam_5365@ip68-109-124-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:36:28 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:29 OTOH stassats`, why is your name in plural, then? 04:36:33 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-172.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 04:37:04 kami-`: is it? 04:37:53 oh, if you mean that it's composed of two me 04:38:18 *Fare* invents a new language where kami-` means "beach" -- and another one for "Fare"... 04:38:44 stassats`: sorry. That was a lame joke. I meant stassat*S* 04:39:32 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:40:25 -!- kami-` is now known as kami- 04:40:38 guys, why are you post-backquoted? 04:41:25 so you can distinguish multiple personalities after disconnects 04:41:26 Fare: that's what erc (the emacs irc client) does with me 04:44:12 when your nickname is still logged on freenode or something 04:44:43 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:45:13 QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:45:15 hello 04:45:33 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:46:13 Strange: last time I opened the irc logs in Firefox 3, the .txt page was shown immediately in the browser tab. Now, I'm asked with a dialog to select the corresponding app: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2009-11/lisp-2009.11.10.txt 04:48:42 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:49:16 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:51:53 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405258.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:07 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405258.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:55:44 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:57:21 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.49.12] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:02 quodlibe` [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:51 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.226.98] has joined #lisp 04:59:15 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:38 comunista [n=comunisc@187.7.51.91] has joined #lisp 05:01:22 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:05:03 Adlai``` [n=adlai@85-250-196-245.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 05:05:47 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has left #lisp 05:06:12 -!- quodlibe` [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:09:25 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 05:12:20 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:12:40 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-151-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:58 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:14:10 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-242-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:11 -!- QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:18:52 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 05:19:16 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:20:19 -!- comunista [n=comunisc@187.7.51.91] has quit [] 05:23:09 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:24:24 -!- Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-173-74-131.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:28 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:24:54 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:25:32 harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-70-8.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:26:19 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:26:49 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-174-198.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:21 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:29 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:31:50 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has left #lisp 05:35:50 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:38:36 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-224-84.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:41 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:38:42 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:39:52 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-208-136.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:41:14 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442850.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:43:09 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-165-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:21 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-174-198.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:45:29 Retardedpope [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:02 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 05:46:05 *** - CAR: #(0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0) is not a list 05:46:10 What is it then? 05:46:13 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 05:46:26 <_3b> clhs #( 05:46:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm 05:47:25 good morning #lisp 05:47:52 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:47:58 clhs type-of 05:47:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tp_of.htm 05:49:14 thank you 05:50:04 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:50:34 SimonAda1eit [n=simon@d131138.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 05:50:58 i'm getting "compilation failed" from sbcl/slime due to warnings only 05:51:18 i seem to recall some sort of *FAIL-ON-WARN* setting but i can't find it 05:51:38 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:48 there is no in slime, and that's a known issue 05:54:47 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:55:12 stassats`: if i compile a defun from the editor, and get that "compilation failed" message, but it's just warnings, did the compile take effect at least? 05:56:44 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:58:11 it seems not, slime CATCHes the warning 05:58:13 le sigh 05:58:17 compile-time side effects take place, but not load 05:58:31 So it's a vector, but how do I use it? 05:58:31 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#simple_vector tells me nothing. 05:58:51 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp016.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:58:52 stassats`: indeed 05:59:03 vsync: it doesn't catch warnings in that sense, it just doesn't load fasl if compile-file says failure 06:00:02 if you are too annoyed, i can give you a quick patch 06:01:25 clhs 9.1.1 06:01:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_aa.htm 06:01:26 stassats`: hmm i'm encountering this even from (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op ...) in the repl 06:01:36 vsync: that's not slime 06:02:04 here you can set (setf asdf:*compile-file-failure-behaviour* :warn) 06:02:52 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:03:09 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@d187125.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:03:48 stassats`: shouldn't i set rather -warning-behaviour? (which is currently :warn) 06:03:56 Clicking on an object in the java api will tell me how to use that object, but clicking on an object in the hyper spec doesn't really tell me anything. Why is that? 06:04:03 is this sbcl that is calling it a failure? or asdf? 06:04:11 How do I navigate the hyper spec? 06:04:12 vsync: no 06:04:24 vsync: that's per standard 06:04:36 of course this asdf comes as part of sbcl 06:04:47 stassats`: to fail compile-file on a warning, in the standard? 06:04:54 yes 06:04:56 Retardedpope: because functions in lisp are polymorphic 06:05:01 clhs compile-file 06:05:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm 06:05:28 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:05:40 Retardedpope: functions are more important than classes in lisp 06:06:05 The tertiary value, failure-p, is false if no conditions of type error or warning (other than style-warning) were detected by the compiler, and true otherwise. 06:06:23 Retardedpope: for vectors, you would look at the array and sequence chapters of the spec, as vectors are subclasses of both of those 06:06:29 right, but you can ignore that value, and load it nevertheless 06:06:36 redblue [i=star@ppp106.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:06:49 stassats`: yes everything is making sense now 06:06:58 subclass of both? 06:07:00 except why the standard would want warnings to count as failures 06:07:25 the behavior i would like is for errors to count as failures but not warnings 06:07:26 there should be similar configuration in slime, but i'm not in the mood right now 06:07:37 Retardedpope: yes. look at the class precendence list of the vector class 06:08:03 class precedence list? 06:08:22 stassats`: that's fine since it is all the way to the compiler that this is happening 06:08:41 ohhh 06:08:51 compile time warnings are a different beast than run time warnings 06:09:12 this is from a library (ltk) which is giving a warning inside a macro for an ok but possibly typoed situation 06:09:14 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:09:17 i believe i'll change that to a style-warning 06:09:31 Retardedpope: `the list of things after Class Precedence List: in the hyperspec page for vector 06:10:06 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.97] has joined #lisp 06:10:13 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-228-61.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 06:12:12 I'm completely lost in the hyperspec haven't even figured out how to do: array[index] 06:13:01 (aref array index) 06:13:08 Retardedpope: look under the arrays chapter... 06:13:19 or let Fare spoil you :) 06:13:21 see also char, svref 06:13:28 and elt 06:13:46 and apply aref 06:13:59 although optimizing compilers will do the most optimal thing given a type declaration 06:15:00 not the mostestest optimalest? 06:15:40 depends how good your declaration is 06:15:46 Thank you Fare :) 06:16:10 oh, you forgot schar, no? 06:17:17 but in general, use aref unless you really know that you'll be better off with something else 06:18:21 -!- didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:18:37 hmm, so how do i signal a STYLE-WARNING? 06:18:42 *stassats`* uses CHAR for descriptive purposes 06:18:59 (warn 'style-warning) 06:19:02 vsync: on sbcl, (apropos "style-warn") 06:19:06 (warn 'style-warning "message") just gives me "a style-warning was signaled" 06:19:26 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:19:47 and what do you want it to do? 06:19:52 (signal (make-condition 'my-style-warning :bloh blih)) 06:20:04 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:20:14 stassats`: include my message 06:21:13 there's no way to use just STYLE-WARNING with a message? 06:21:32 how does #'WARN know to dump my message into the condition when it is the DATUM? 06:22:46 vsync: because that's the default 06:22:49 clhs warn 06:22:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_warn.htm 06:23:53 clhs make-condition 06:23:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_cnd.htm 06:24:30 i see that rahul ... just wondering what slot it sets with the message 06:24:43 i tried (make-condition 'style-warning :format-control "foo") with no luck 06:25:27 ohhhhh style-warning doesn't subclass simple-warning 06:25:54 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:25:58 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-208-136.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:15 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 06:28:25 the spec says "it must be possible to reference the condition type as the parent-type of another condition type in a subsequent define-condition form in the file being compiled. " 06:28:45 but if i am going to signal the condition at compile-time, do i need to wrap my define-condition in an eval-when? 06:29:12 (signal it in a macro within the same file, but the macro will be called from other files) 06:29:53 if it's expanded in other files, then no eval-when needed 06:32:44 macros are evaluated at compile time 06:32:55 thanks, got this working 06:37:04 being able to separate out compile-time effects is useful but continues to surprise 06:37:09 http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html, heh 06:39:54 vsync: that's a bit ranty... 06:41:37 sykopomp: enough to keep my interest and amusement late at night at least 06:41:47 I guess :) 06:41:52 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:42:05 reminds me a bit of one (forget which) of paul graham's books, teaching common lisp but wishing for scheme all along the way 06:42:10 as one of the comments points out 06:42:16 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 06:42:39 it's unfortunate, yes :) 06:42:42 XCVB seems intriguing... i wish for a practical example of the problem they are trying to solve 06:42:51 almost a year old 06:43:07 i was so disconnected from the community (lisp and otherwise) for some months 06:43:07 vsync: my impression is that xcvb mainly shines when it comes to very large, complex projects. 06:43:33 didn't even realize that ILC'09 came and went :( in my country and a significant anniversary and location 06:43:39 the advantages are probably less obvious (to the point that they might be disadvantages), when it comes to small projects. 06:43:50 but that's my impression, and xcvb is starting to look very nice :) 06:43:59 sykopomp: it seems to me their argument would be that small projects should use it so that people can successfully make large projects out of them 06:44:19 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 06:44:36 vsync: but xcvb has a fancy asdf->xcvb conversion tool, too :P 06:44:44 i just wonder what other situations could arise besides people binding to the same things in the readtable 06:44:45 -!- jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:45:29 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp106.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:08 maus [n=maus@222.253.75.149] has joined #lisp 06:47:20 -!- Adlai``` [n=adlai@85-250-196-245.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:58 Adlai``` [n=adlai@85-250-196-245.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 06:48:35 S1100100` [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 06:49:06 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:49:24 hello 06:49:29 some propaganda about xcvb wouldn't hurt 06:49:32 hello kiuma 06:49:49 i've just started to get ASDF really figured out!! 06:49:57 vsync: and? 06:50:14 I need to create an image with "12 + 3 =" for generating a captcha, what should I use ? 06:50:29 kiuma: cl-recaptcha instead? 06:50:35 madnificent: just would like to be ahead of the curve once in a while :) 06:50:36 ah! 06:50:42 can you use another object type when defining a slot :type? 06:50:46 madnificent, let me check 06:51:14 kiuma: also: bots don't normally check that stuff when it is plaintext. Also: I'd use Vecto, if I'd stiff have to build the image, I think 06:51:35 vsync: so, promote xcvb! no one knows it (neither do I) :P 06:52:09 vsync: what I really meant with the propaganda was, that it would be nice to have some more nice information about it somewhere close. Why it is good, why it is the next best thing etc etc 06:52:54 madnificent, do you mean I could use the 'text' "1+ 15 =" to have a verivication code 06:53:02 *verification 06:53:18 you could have the text in there as raw text and still get away with people just entering the form 06:53:39 but imho, cl-recaptcha has an extremely trivial interface and looks better 06:54:46 and no problem with bots? that's awesome! (I don't like captcha very much, thay are usually difficult to read for humans too 06:54:57 ) 06:55:07 kiuma: but it does a good thing, it helps classify books :) 06:55:19 it is owned by google now though (I think) :( 06:55:30 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-usnisultzrwnscmm] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:56:08 "it helps classify books" ? how ? 06:56:28 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-29-169.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:57:18 either read their page or: It asks you for two words: one word is known, the other is an unknown word. One word is used for the verification of the user and the second one is used to classify a word in a book. When enough words have been recognized, it is counted as being that word 06:57:29 madnificent: i would like to see such propaganda 06:57:46 in the meantime, i'm writing applications not libraries, so i'll look at it again when i next write a lib and see where it's at 06:57:48 also: recaptcha allows for some errors. You may mistype one (or even two, I think) characters in a word and still be accepted 06:58:06 vsync: yeah, asdf is still the way to go for now 07:00:42 redblue [i=star@ppp016.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:01:23 ASau [n=user@host27-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:01:28 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:00 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:03:49 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:04:34 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:39 madnificent, http://imagebin.org/71167 07:05:17 kiuma: you are the claw guy! 07:05:21 I was wondering a bit earlier :D 07:05:22 yep 07:05:24 long time no see 07:05:26 how have you been? 07:05:33 lol 07:05:51 there is an update of claw in git now 07:05:56 the style of the site is good 07:06:06 I've since started on my own framework :) 07:07:01 meanwhile I've made practice with netbeans application platform, and I'm learning grails for a new job 07:07:27 *madnificent* is forced to use netbeans for JEE server blah blah 07:07:28 and I really don't like grails 07:08:48 I don't mean I'm using nb to develop (even if I do) I'm using it as a rich application gui , for a C/S application. 07:09:01 comunication is done via soap-ws 07:09:38 oh like that 07:09:46 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:09:47 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp016.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:10:02 for claw-html.dojo I've simplified things a lot! see this: 07:11:50 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-151-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:11:53 kiuma pasted "claw sample code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90089 07:12:54 it looks better like that 07:13:10 your html-expansion looks like mine now 07:13:18 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-27-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:13:24 I still prefer my routing table though 07:13:30 page slots are automatically filled during request cycle 07:13:54 html-expansion isn't changed :) 07:13:55 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:14:27 I don't require the creation of classes nor object in my system 07:14:31 now I have autodeploy of lisplets during claw-as startup :) 07:14:51 I do hint extremely much to an mvc-style development process 07:14:53 I need objects to handle the request cycle 07:14:58 I don't :P 07:15:09 why would you possibly _need_ objects? 07:15:25 -!- S1100100` [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 07:15:35 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:16:03 to define a function to which you can dispatch on? Might as well just create a function (possibly a lambda-function). To receive your variables from? Might as well be a function which you call te receive your variables from... 07:16:13 at least, that was my reasoning a while ago 07:16:24 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:16:30 ooh kiuma, join ##lispweb! 07:16:44 because they can handle: prerender (auto id generation and checking) -> form-rewinding -> render 07:16:49 ok 07:18:28 vng [n=vng@123.20.88.217] has joined #lisp 07:19:41 hello 07:20:39 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21:34 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:22:15 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:23:07 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:25:39 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:28:18 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 07:32:00 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:39:42 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:47:43 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:49:26 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066411.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 good morning 07:49:51 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.105.163] has joined #lisp 07:50:49 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229242065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:53:52 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 07:53:53 tau [n=tau@189.127.59.158] has joined #lisp 07:53:53 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:50 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:55:02 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 07:55:04 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has joined #lisp 07:57:45 c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has joined #lisp 07:58:33 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["Asta-la byebye"] 07:58:47 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 08:01:30 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:03 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.2.124] has joined #lisp 08:08:13 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:08:48 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:06 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.2.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:11:46 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:24 -!- Adlai``` [n=adlai@85-250-196-245.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:14 Adlai``` [n=adlai@93-173-40-35.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 08:21:35 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CC20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:41 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:23:15 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host35.190-228-243.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:27:31 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:28:32 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:28:34 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 08:31:38 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 08:34:48 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 08:38:02 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.106] has joined #lisp 08:38:03 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:38:34 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:59 nostoi [n=nostoi@174.Red-79-150-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:24 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 08:43:41 -!- manuel_ is now known as manuel__ 08:44:05 -!- manuel__ is now known as manuel_ 08:48:51 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:48:55 Hello, i have a list of 9 objects and I use CLIM presentation to draw them. How to draw it into 3x3 rows? Is there any command to make them into 3 lines? or i have to use coordinates only? 08:48:59 can I ask sbcl how much memory it has in objects somehow? 08:49:02 in the repl 08:49:43 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:50:02 madnificent: "in objects?" 08:50:06 there's #'room 08:50:11 room will do :D 08:50:12 thanks 08:50:18 forgot the name 08:55:14 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.2.124] has joined #lisp 08:59:08 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:51 maus: there was some kind of tabular layout thingie 09:01:01 maus: can't remember any details 09:01:58 jdz: thank you for give me info, i will find for more. 09:02:32 maus: i'll check the program i wrout many years ago, i think i used that thing 09:02:49 jdz: tabular layout? where can i find it? 09:02:56 jdz: thank you! 09:04:19 clim formatting-table 09:04:20 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/17-2.html#_922 09:04:44 jdz: thank you 09:04:53 you're welcome. 09:05:28 the program i was referring is a game i wrote: http://www.ltn.lv/~jonis/clones.html 09:06:00 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 09:06:00 might not be the best example of clim application 09:06:04 Good morning! 09:06:06 i wrote it to learn clim 09:06:23 *plage* checks the logs 09:06:29 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 09:06:42 i wonder if it still runs... 09:06:56 jdz: i am learning mcclim too 09:07:15 right, it's been almost 6 years now.. 09:07:26 :) 09:07:29 maus: It is probably easiest to just make a nested loop and use coordinates. 09:07:34 even if i learned something i have forgotten most of it... 09:07:35 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:08:59 plage: we'll try.. we remains only this difficulty 09:09:20 maus: I think tabular layout in combination with presentations might complicate things (there was an order between formating-cell and with-output-as-presentation that had to be respected in order for things to work, but I can't remember which one. 09:09:35 jdz: 6 years is not a short time.. you are so good now! i think :) 09:09:43 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:09:48 And now, I am in a budget meeting, so I am not very available for discussions here. 09:10:39 plage: have a good day! 09:10:41 plage: see you 09:12:04 -!- tau [n=tau@189.127.59.158] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:12:05 -!- Adlai``` [n=adlai@93-173-40-35.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:12:42 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:44 -!- rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Success] 09:12:44 Adlai``` [n=adlai@93-173-40-35.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:12:56 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:13:08 rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:39 vng: I'll still be around, but I might have to participate in the meeting a bit (I am using the Wifi network while in the meeting). 09:15:24 plage: okie 09:17:42 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:12 varjag [n=eugene@62.97.226.122] has joined #lisp 09:18:47 ISTR seeing a certain book about concurrency/threading stuff (my terminology is probably wrong) being mentioned here occasionally, but The Google is failing me. Any recommendations? 09:26:35 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:10 http://wiki.github.com/diiq/eight 09:28:20 gr8 09:29:06 *crink* just talked to myself 09:29:18 /s/myself/himself/ 09:29:51 crink: If you want people to follow the link, I suggest you explain what it is about first. 09:30:34 plage: no i can't explain it well, just share, because it is beautiful 09:30:36 heh 09:30:50 *_3b* thinks cola sounds like more fun 09:32:48 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95.24.218.96] has joined #lisp 09:36:14 arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:58 -!- arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:37:43 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:41 *plage* is lucky to have Wifi during the meeting, without which he would run screaming out of the room right away. 09:40:23 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:40:28 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:41:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:01 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@174.Red-79-150-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:43:10 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has left #lisp 09:43:34 crink's link is a new lisp 09:43:36 *newlisp 09:46:38 nyef: I found a working, nearly-full featured Alpha ES40 emulator for linux/amd64 09:48:46 plage, :-) 09:49:06 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:19 tic: It is truly horrible. 09:50:18 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:50:48 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-76-24-17-8.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:50:58 plage, what kind of meeting is it? 09:51:31 budget 2010 09:52:13 -!- Adlai``` [n=adlai@93-173-40-35.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:52:46 Adlai``` [n=adlai@93-173-40-35.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:52:56 Mostly it's a dialogue between the head of the (super-) department of CS and math, and head of the CS lab. I am not sure why I was told to be here, at least not at the moment. And the meeting has already lasted almost an hour. 09:52:57 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:53:14 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.105.163] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:56:06 poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 09:56:55 plage, tell them to increase the budget for lisp programming next year 09:57:26 araujo: Yes, of course. Thanks for reminding me! 09:57:37 :] 09:59:20 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 09:59:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:59:37 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 10:00:42 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-089-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:23 plage, oh yay. 10:05:15 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:42 manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6C8FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:10 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:06:22 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.102.121] has joined #lisp 10:06:26 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:09 plage: you'll know they need you when they shut the wifi off 10:07:14 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:08:40 Yeah, but the guy who manages the Wifi is my friend. 10:08:46 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 10:12:32 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:13:39 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-089-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:14:08 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:33 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:14:46 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CC20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:44 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 10:22:01 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 10:22:53 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 10:26:51 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:28:05 pavelludiq_ [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 10:28:06 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:28:36 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:28:43 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:48 plage: there are fewer lisp map pins in bordeaux than i expected 10:29:10 how do you add a pin to the map? contact the administrator? 10:29:23 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:29:44 tic: no, anyone with a google account can do it. 10:29:47 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:30:13 I didn't manage to. Couldn't find anything to drag, and clicking only zoomed. 10:30:35 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:30:39 hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:45 click "edit" 10:30:58 and then on mine a palette appears on the map where you can drag and drop a pin 10:31:06 Aha. 10:31:33 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:31:43 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 10:32:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:24 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:34:07 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 10:34:25 luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 10:35:59 lusory [n=bart@bb116-15-91-239.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:38:33 Xach: Another thing to do and not enough time to do it. 10:40:20 it's like 30 seconds time... 10:40:26 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:41:55 jdz: It is not. It will take many minutes to figure out what it is about and how to do it. 10:41:59 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-165-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:42:25 jdz: If someone gives me exact instructions, I'll do it. 10:43:01 hmm, like, click the link to google maps, locate your place, click "edit" button, place a marker, enter your name and description, done 10:43:24 plage: I don't expect you to do it, but I'm surprised that there are no students, colleagues, or other neighbors in bordeaux who added themselves. 10:43:32 except the one 10:43:48 and who is that? 10:44:09 *Xach* must check the spelling; approximately "nicolas lamirault" 10:44:17 *Xach* is sorry, nicolas (sp) 10:44:18 rings a bell. 10:44:48 Xach: There's not many people in the Netherlands either. Plaent Lisp doesn' 10:45:10 aerique: Planet Lisp doesn't reach a lot of CL'ers here apparently 10:45:24 *aerique* sighs.. one of those days again 10:45:43 Xach: I think it has to do with the fact that most people, like me, have never heard about this thing, have no idea how to influence it, and most of them not having a google account. 10:46:22 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.2.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:46:36 plage: Right...it's an example of the many separate communities of Common Lisp 10:46:38 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 10:46:57 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 10:47:10 Xach: add the map to channel topic! :) 10:47:14 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-226-217.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:15 Xach: and the several incomprehensible "power-user" UIs of google (: 10:50:22 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:50:56 cods: is there an example for the path painting functions in cl-vectors? 10:51:11 antifuchs: hi. What do you mean? 10:51:27 hi all :) 10:52:06 ah, I meant an example of how to output to a bitmap file (: 10:52:18 I suspect I am doing something wrong 10:52:27 and would like to see how to do it right (: 10:53:16 the example pictures in the manual were generated somehow, right? (: 10:53:47 antifuchs: hmm yeah, but I don't think I've included everything in the distribution. However there is save-image in aa-misc.lisp 10:53:54 ah 10:54:00 ok, I'll take a look at that 10:54:02 thanks (: 10:54:18 but it outputs dump PPM only 10:54:37 I guess Xach has better examples :) 10:56:05 err, s/dump/dumb/ 10:59:12 -!- luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:00:30 -!- pavelludiq_ [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:44 luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 11:01:19 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 11:01:37 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 11:01:55 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBABEA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:04 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BB9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:14 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:04:44 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:04:50 howdy 11:04:54 deepfire: Are you here? 11:10:54 Xach: So can you at least tell me where to start, i.e. what you typed in order to get "Lisp map pins in Bordeaux"? 11:14:13 jdz: What was the method for obtaining "Lisp map pins". I typed "Lisp Bordeaux" to google maps, did not get Nicolas Lamirault, but got a dozen or so pins with hotels that had partnership with ELS2008 and a company that does Lisp development. 11:15:03 With a bit of luck, I can get this done before my next meeting in 45 minutes. 11:15:09 spiaggia: i don't really know anything about Bordeaux (somebody else was talking about that) 11:15:25 Yes, Xach was. Sorry. 11:15:58 <_3b> spiaggia: right side of planet lisp 11:16:00 jdz: But in order for my edit to be effective, I need to know what to put in there so that next time Xach searches for "Lisp map pins in Bordeaux" it will appear. 11:16:49 cods: ppm is fine. it's just that all my png output seems blurry 11:16:51 very blurry 11:17:47 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:18:47 spiaggia: Planet Lisp has the context. 11:18:59 Xach: Yes, _3b told me. 11:19:16 spiaggia: I'm a little surprised you don't read Planet Lisp. 11:19:29 antifuchs: blurry? 11:19:32 *nareshov* subscribes 11:20:18 Xach: That's just one more thing to do and not enough time. Then there is facebook, plaxo, yahoo, and whatnot. 11:20:37 antifuchs: do you have an example? 11:20:45 -!- Adlai``` is now known as Adlai 11:20:49 sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-40-130.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:59 spiaggia: I think Planet Lisp is in a different category than Facebook for someone interested in Common Lisp. 11:21:05 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:21:12 jdz: When you say "click on the link to google maps", from what location is that? 11:21:24 Xach: Yeah, I used to read it, but I keep forgetting. 11:21:30 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:46 spiaggia: i was talking about the one in Xach's blog entry 11:22:00 Xach: yeah, the outlines of horizontally orientated rectangles are very very blurry. 11:22:08 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:38 spiaggia: and that's the one on the right hand side of planet lisp (CL-USER Google map) 11:22:47 Xach: on both even and odd coordinates, and on .5 ones (tested just in case they end up between pixels somehow) 11:22:55 antifuchs: weird. 11:23:03 -!- Kolyan is now known as Kolyan[away] 11:23:28 Xach: well, I imitated vecto's method, but vecto's graphics are way sharper 11:23:30 jdz: Got that far. Don't see an edit button. 11:23:49 But I imagine in the 35minutes that remain before my meeting, I'll find it. 11:23:50 but then, you don't use the path manipulation stuff in cl-vectors 11:23:56 spiaggia: it's on the left hand side at the top 11:24:06 antifuchs: not extensively, no 11:24:08 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 11:24:21 spiaggia: maybe it only appears if you are signed in with your google account or something 11:24:23 sg [n=sg@83.231.106.55] has joined #lisp 11:24:32 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:35 jdz: I was definitely not signed in. 11:24:57 spiaggia: then the mystery is solved :) 11:25:15 cods: http://boinkor.net/lisp/cl-vectors-blur.png 11:25:31 never mind the inverted round box (: 11:26:27 antifuchs: might it be because of error in the pixel plotting stuff? (the callback function) 11:26:31 I'm worried about the outline of the purple boxes. 11:26:37 yeah, that's my suspicion too 11:26:51 it seems like the purple box and the outline are detached 11:27:19 I have my git repo on ssh://common-lisp.net/project/claw/git/claw.git , how can I make it visible on html ? 11:27:31 that happens on vertical and on horizontal lines, but the callback operates only horizontally... so hm. 11:27:55 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 11:28:51 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 11:28:53 antifuchs: it looks like if you tried to stroke the contour of contour (or something like that) 11:29:10 (if that make sense) 11:29:10 jdz: Do I put my name in "title" and my address in "description"? 11:29:22 spiaggia: that's what i did at least 11:29:59 cods: yeah, I understand what you mean. 11:30:10 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:31:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:31:08 saikatc [n=saikatc@98.210.192.23] has joined #lisp 11:31:19 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@98.210.192.23] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:31:30 antifuchs: that is a very unusual artifact 11:31:47 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBABEA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 11:32:00 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:04 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBABEA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:10 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBABEA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 11:32:16 antifuchs: you are a brave man to use raw cl-vectors :) 11:32:23 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBABEA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:40 Well, that was easy, only about 20 minutes of work. 11:34:26 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:34:59 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:35:33 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@220-136-229-143.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:04 jdz: Thanks for guiding me through that! 11:36:25 spiaggia: my pleasure! 11:36:34 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:37:47 cods: I use stroke-path exactly once for closed polygons, with :polygon if it should be filled, and :closed-polyline if it's just the outline 11:38:21 ah, seems if I use :closed-polyline, the outline is painted blurry, too. 11:38:38 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-226-217.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:39:08 antifuchs: can you test with a simple rectangle (without any further transformation), then a single stroke? 11:39:38 antifuchs: or try to stroke with bigger thickness to emphasize any probleme maybe 11:39:52 yeah, hang on. 11:40:04 spiaggia: it's easier for younger people who are more used to technology in daily life 11:41:31 Xach: And who have more time on their hands. 11:46:12 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:40 ... leading to the situation mentioned in Coders at Work, where the internet-addicted programmer keeps trying to reload lwn in the browser every few minutes, despite sitting on a plane without internet 11:46:50 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:48:36 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 11:49:11 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:49:25 lichtblau: Hmm! 11:49:44 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 11:49:59 (I think it was Brendan Eich who admitted to that, but I'm not certain.) 11:50:18 (could have been Fitzpatrick) 11:50:38 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-vewleslxdogechfa] has joined #lisp 11:52:18 cods: ooooh. 11:52:51 *cods* wonders what to expect :) 11:53:02 it seems to happen only if I use :polygon 11:53:04 AND 11:53:16 it looks like :polygon doesn't draw the outline. 11:53:19 Xach: There is also a difference in attention span. People my age have a harder time switching between activities fast and frequently. 11:53:27 at least it disregards the stroke width 11:53:43 *spiaggia* vanishes to his next meeting. 11:53:56 spiaggia: what's your age? 11:54:05 54 or so 11:54:12 antifuchs: it might be related to the path orientation. And I guess you're talking about :assume-type? (not the implicit type) 11:54:21 yea, :assume-type 11:55:02 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:55:05 the implicit type is the same as the :assume-type 11:55:08 (I made sure of that) 11:55:09 if it disregards the stroke width, what the transformation do? 11:55:29 silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has joined #lisp 11:55:52 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 11:57:31 it seems to draw only the filled insides 11:58:05 antifuchs: ok, then it looks like a miss orientation I think 11:58:36 if I draw the outline only, it gives me a much bigger outlined box 11:59:20 that's weird 12:00:45 wait, hm. 12:00:51 I may have been misdiagnosing this. 12:02:17 ah, hm. an odd line-width causes a line to get blurry. an even one doesn't. sounds like misalignment, no? 12:03:11 looks right: if I use a thickness of 1 with coords at .5, I get sharp lines. 12:04:56 ok about that, but on your screenshot, it seems that there is 2 lines around the boxes 12:05:07 true 12:05:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:06:39 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-235.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:07:07 antifuchs: an idea: try to stroke with a very different color to check if the space between the apparent two lines is stroked too 12:07:18 s/stroked/filled/ 12:07:20 good idea 12:07:24 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:13:23 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6C8FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:14:10 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C8FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:34 cods: it's weird. I just tried a simple polygon. if I draw it filled on .5 coords, I get nice edges but even worse corners. http://boinkor.net/lisp/weird-poly.png 12:15:09 it I can give you the path structure and my invocation of the stroke function. update-state 12:15:14 antifuchs: try to reverse the path (path-reverse) prior to stroking it 12:16:14 huh, that gives me no output at all. 12:16:31 this is a destructive function 12:16:49 see path-reversed for a non-destructive one 12:16:55 oh wow 12:16:56 pretty! 12:17:03 see also path-orient to detect it automatically 12:17:56 that's much better! 12:18:26 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:18:37 this should probably be documented anyway 12:18:44 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 12:19:09 yeah, it should (: 12:19:13 I didn't even know this exists (: 12:19:25 this looks far, far better now 12:21:56 hm, I see only a path-reverse/path-reversed, no path-orient 12:22:12 do you have this in a non-released version, by chance? (: 12:23:38 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:39 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:24:18 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 12:24:40 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:30:36 My Lisp foo is out of date, so I have a few really quick questions. 12:32:03 First, have the sequence functions, say "remove-if-not," been largely (or in part) superceded by the (loop) macro of some other looping/comprehension macro devised in the last ~20 years since I last frobbbed Lisp. I do acknowledge this can be a matter of style. 12:32:38 attila_lendvai: re your sbcl10 mail. Perhaps we could organize a quick cell phone number exchange on #sbcl10 or something like that? I know I have antifuchs' number, but I think that's about it. Might be helpful to be able to meet up on Sunday. 12:32:49 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 12:33:00 right! more cell phone number exchanging 12:33:30 btw, sorry to interupt an ongoing irc exchange 12:34:00 Summermute66: I'd say it's mostly a matter of style, yeah. 12:34:33 Is (loop) still the macro of choice (for non-sequence folks) or are there newer alternatives? 12:36:17 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:36:24 would be the other way around wouldn't it Summermute66? 12:36:45 I'm sure it's my mistake, but clarify? 12:36:48 <_3b> minion: tell Summermute66 about iterate 12:36:49 Summermute66: please look at iterate: iterate is a lispy and extensible replacement for the :(CLHS "LOOP") macro. http://www.cliki.net/iterate 12:37:07 Aha, will examine. 12:37:46 While loop is no mean feat to implement properly, I do imagine there would be some alternative designs by now :-) 12:38:27 cods: it still looks like some polygon lines land between pixels. can I align them to a raster somehow? 12:38:45 I meant that sequence processing would have superceded the older macro construct 12:38:54 not the reverse 12:39:02 if in fact it had 12:39:36 Ah! I could see this alternative history (look at ML, Haskell and friends, just for example) 12:39:41 pfoetchen [n=pfoetche@92.117.41.107] has joined #lisp 12:40:34 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:41:07 2nd question is an implementation question. The sequence (and other) function have TONS of optional positional and keyword predicate arguments start,end,key,test,if-not is not an untypical collection of "extra" arguments. 12:42:08 I'm wondering if these are typically handled by a few "compiler-macros" in most implementations, left performance challenged, hand coded one by one, or some other implementation alternative I haven't thought of yet. 12:42:23 <_3b> probably all of the above 12:43:21 Let's say we limit our speculations to LispWorks, SBCL and other implementations considered "high performance." ??? 12:43:26 <_3b> M-. in slime will help figure out specifics if you really need to know 12:43:37 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:43:49 <_3b> for SBCL i'd say assume things are fast enough until you have reason to suspect otherwise 12:43:51 Good point. I have CCL/slime setup and it shouldn't be any slouch 12:44:22 <_3b> and then there is probably some way to convince it to go faster with proper declarations or whateve 12:44:32 <_3b> and after that, well, you have the source :) 12:44:49 *_3b* hasn't tried lispworks 12:45:12 3rd unanticipated stupid question - I know macroexpand, but is there a standard way to explore compiler-macros ???? 12:46:00 <_3b> funcall (compiler-macro-function ...) ? 12:46:35 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:46:36 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 12:46:56 My buddy spends the $$$$ for a LispWorks license, with the CLIM and so on (he's an ex symbolics machine hacker) and it TOTALLY ROCKS. Quite a "solid, complete and comprehensive system" feel. 12:47:10 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C8FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:47:30 <_3b> note that in sbcl at least, if i understand correctly, most of that sort of thing is done at a lower level where it can see types and such 12:47:58 <_3b> right, if i had $$$$ to spend, i'd probably evaluate it :) 12:47:58 sorry, not enough coffee - clarify? 12:48:50 sbcl has a non-standard "deftransform" mechanism 12:48:59 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:49:18 Ah, you mean in lieu of or in addition to compiler-macros, etc.? 12:49:22 I understand that conceptually it operates "after" (compiler-)macro expansion 12:49:25 <_3b> right 12:49:51 Hmmm, in my day, we called that "a compiler" - just joking :-) 12:49:54 <_3b> so for example a sequence function could determine that an argument was known to be a list, and skip the array part 12:50:21 well, that's how most of the actual compiler is in fact implemented, if I'm not mistaken, yes 12:50:25 <_3b> right, sbcl has a very nice compiler :) 12:50:45 Gotcha - this is a huge issue for something like iteration or comparison over elements - abstraction vs. performance. 12:50:54 (or at least the transformation from lisp source to one of the intermediate forms) 12:52:34 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:35 I'm working on a compiler (rather Lisp like in parts, ssshhhh but typed) and wrestling with this very issue - abstraction vs. performance. 12:53:34 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:54:02 Unlike what it sounds like SBCL is doing on a finite set of sequence types, I'm seeking a user extensible language level mechanism. Easier said than done. 12:54:19 -!- SimonAda1eit [n=simon@d131138.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:54:41 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:55:00 Summermute66: take a look at Dylan, it has an extensible sequence protocol 12:55:18 <_3b> sbcl does too :p 12:55:20 Summermute66: Xof did that already: sb-sequence 12:55:32 Will do, haven't peeked at Dylan in too many years. I hear it still has a pretty nice open source implementation. 12:55:33 *_3b* has no idea if it is as well optimized as the standard CL sequence types though 12:55:36 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has joined #lisp 12:55:37 antifuchs: indeed, it was not released, sorry. You can find the latest (but two year old!) stuff here: http://projects.tuxee.net/cl-vectors/files/cl-vectors-0.1.4a.tar.gz 12:55:47 Sorry - Xof? 12:56:13 antifuchs: about alignement to raster, unfortunately this is a detail that the user must handle itself. 12:56:24 alignment* 12:56:25 Summermute66: and on SBCL, Slime can compiler-macroexpand forms 12:56:57 fe[nl]ix: Cool. 12:57:07 Sorry, what's Xof again? 12:57:19 a lisper 12:57:22 and sb-sequence? 12:57:45 Ok, got the first part - person :-) 12:57:58 sb-X is the sbcl variant 12:58:10 Summermute66: Christophe Rhodes a.k.a. Xof, Krystof, et cætera... 12:58:27 and sb-X was cool because.... 12:59:07 <- doesn't know the cool 12:59:34 or "the cool sb-X feature was...." 12:59:56 Summermute66: sb-sequence is Xof's implementation of extensible(CLOS) sequences for SBCL 13:00:07 <_3b> Summermute66: he meant "sb-" is a prefix for names of sbcl specific libs 13:00:16 i can't edit myself on cl-user.net? 13:00:24 Ok. I think I got it now. Thanks. 13:00:59 <- possible enemy of the cool 13:01:01 Kind of like my compiler-design-implementation dilemma. But different :-) 13:01:20 Right now, basically, judicious inlining is my very good friend. 13:01:55 argh, i have two logins... 13:02:57 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:04:19 5th stupid modern CL question - how to handle mutually exclusive keyword arguments, for example :start-at 4 vs. :start-after #'(lambda (x) (> x 7)) Is there a mechanism I don't know, a convention to follow or just function-by-function error reporting (which is alot harder with higher order functions). 13:05:15 Summermute66: you could document the behavior: :start-after supersedes :start-at for example 13:05:26 Summermute66: you need to implement the check manually 13:05:58 That's a shame. Maybe a little macro could speed up these checks and error reports. 13:06:28 cods: hmm, so what do I need to do to draw a sharp 1 pixel thick line? 13:06:52 CL is so very giant with some of the functions with SO many arguments, you'd think that they would have put in some kind of mutually-exclusive option feature. 13:07:32 antifuchs: you need to have a path that goes through the middle of the pixels, then stroke this path with a thickness of 1. No other choices with cl-vectors. 13:08:02 Summermute66: its hard to refrain from sloping from that to constraint solving, in a slippery fashion 13:08:15 Summermute66: in this case, just :start + typecase is enough 13:08:44 cods: huh, that doesn't give me a black line. 13:09:04 antifuchs: could you show the output you get? (and maybe the code if possible) 13:09:07 I can see the mechanisms, but I can also see nice auto-error-reporting for :find x find-not: y kind of mistakes 13:09:08 Summermute66: btw, (lambda () ...) now expands to (function (lambda () ...)) so you don't have to write #'(lambda ...) 13:09:22 wait, something seems to be coercing to integer coords here. 13:09:23 wtf 13:09:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:10:14 Like I mentioned, I have nearly 20 years of CL practice to catch up. But (lambda (x) x) is DEFINITELY an syntactic improvement. 13:10:23 oh yes. 13:10:35 cods: my bad. I had a (ceiling x) (ceiling y) in there. sorry (: 13:10:56 looks very nice now. 13:11:00 antifuchs: heh, no problem :) 13:11:00 Summermute66: some people still prepend #' nevertheless. 13:11:31 luis`: did you take a look at static-vectors ? 13:11:40 fe[nl]ix: no, what's that? 13:11:41 and type in all upper case too :-) 13:11:47 fe[nl]ix: oh your CFFI patch? 13:12:04 luis`: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/iolib/static-vectors.git 13:12:44 fe[nl]ix: I'll take a look. Are you coming to the SBCL workshop? 13:13:34 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:14:17 Re SBCL10, I only have to find a bed (youth hostel, most probably). I'll be bringing another grad student along (: 13:14:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-4-72.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:16:01 luis`: no, I've allocated most of my current budget for a month in Bordeaux 13:16:20 allocate some more, the GC will take care of it 13:16:33 hehe :) 13:16:46 Stupid question #7. I'm using mostly PLT scheme because their lex/yacc is really convenient for interactive use and 2) of course, it's really portable and 3) it is stupidly rich with libraries and features. CCL seems to have the portability covered very nicely. Anyone here bang hard on any CL parser tools and can report favorably - lex/yacc, a parser combinator implementation, packrat parser etc. 13:18:03 minion: tell Summermute66 about meta 13:18:04 Summermute66: direct your attention towards meta: A recursive-descent parser as described in in a paper by Henry Baker: Pragmatic Parsing in Common Lisp; or, putting defmacro on steroids (ACM Lisp Pointers, vol. http://www.cliki.net/meta 13:18:09 minion: tell Summermute66 about cl-yacc 13:18:10 Summermute66: please look at cl-yacc: CL-Yacc is a LALR(1) parser generator library for Common Lisp, somewhat like Zebu or LALR.cl. http://www.cliki.net/cl-yacc 13:18:28 I think I have a printout of that paper somewhere - a real classic. 13:18:28 cods: adjusting the coordinates by 1/2 does the trick - thanks a lot (: 13:18:32 nikodemus also has some packrat parser code 13:19:42 Has anyone here banged hard on CL-YACC, dealt with producing decent error messaging to users, etc. Or any other time of day some cl-yacc mavens hang around? 13:20:18 manuel_ [n=manuel@p57AB49B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:22 whoop, missed the commend on packrat parser. I'll check it out. 13:20:43 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:30 Thanks. Ciao for now from Wash, DC. 13:21:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:22:08 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:15 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 13:25:43 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:24 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:57 smaxarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has joined #lisp 13:28:51 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-92937.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:29:18 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:30:29 -!- smaxarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has quit [Client Quit] 13:33:28 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:33:50 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:34:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:54 ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:40:06 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:40:56 Summermute66: i used cl-yacc for a while, but fucc looks more promising 13:41:20 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 13:43:48 Dodek: which aspect of it is more promising? I can't tell from its homepage. 13:43:49 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:03 fucc looks dead 13:44:34 and stuff 13:46:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 13:47:34 pjb [n=t@85.169.61.208] has joined #lisp 13:49:04 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:50:39 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:52:03 but appears to be a decent lisp cc 13:53:39 my standard for this is Alan Holubs occs and llama, never seen anything as complete although fucc covers a larger grammar space 13:53:42 btw, peeked at this other "irc monitor" and had the thought that I really want a Lex that compiles the lex spec to a full (wicked fast) DFA. It's just something I did back 13:54:11 in the early 90's, so I figure anyone's else's Lex tool I use should do the same :-) 13:56:09 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:57:42 *potentially larger 13:58:27 That is certainly true 13:59:07 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BB9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:59:33 But for a guy who got 2 meg (Meg) or RAM for Xmas one year to run Smalltalk/V 286, I feel like I can spare the extra space on today's honking "mainframe-on-a-desk" class machines :-) 13:59:54 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:00:51 occs and llama cover the same ones it (fucc) actually covers but they are limited to LR and LL, respectively and aren't a potential generic cc in the way the fucc pkg could be 14:01:38 also its lack of lexer is part of its lispy goodness 14:02:32 I'm not all that old, and i still shake my head in disbelief with 24" monitors with 32 bit color (alpha channel), 1.5 TB consumer hard disks, dual and quad core CPU's with huge caches, 6 GB 64 bit consumer machines at best buy, Gigabit ethernet on phone cables (i'm an old thick wire guy). The tech we have at our fingertips today is TRULY AMAZING! 14:02:50 *p_l* tends to prefer making software as lean as possible, seeing how "there will be more RAM soon" killed his work several times 14:03:20 Sure, I don't think i'll ever shed my overall bit counting ways :-) 14:03:24 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-186-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:03:29 Lycurgus: not more dead than cl-yacc 14:03:40 all technology upgrades tend to be swallowed by bad coding and unnecessary bloat 14:03:40 no doubt 14:03:47 Minus a lexer is it all just one LL(K) or whatever parser from character tokens on up? 14:04:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:24 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:42 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:04:58 *p_l* currently is in need of twice more computer power than he has available, and he isn't even touching database or GIMP (that are still loaded into memory) 14:05:00 -!- sg [n=sg@83.231.106.55] has quit [] 14:05:00 i also have a feeling that most of the libraries are dead 14:05:21 and that they are upgraded by a person who needs it at the time 14:06:19 It makes me feel way old, but my zeos 486 33Mhz running DOS 3.3 and whatever the somewhat pared down emacs clone and Turbo Pascal had to be THE MOST RESPONSIVE computer system I've ever used. Everything happened instantaneously (excepting starting up the mini-emacs, iirc). 14:06:49 Dodek: what libs are dead? 14:06:55 Dodek: do you call "dead" being complete to the point that it seldom needs changes ? 14:07:14 fe[nl]ix: no, of course not 14:07:23 i meant stuff that can be found on cliki 14:07:33 but anyway, i need to go now 14:07:37 fe[nl]ix, yes that's one of the entailed conditions 14:07:57 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-4-72.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:10 "dead" should be "not actively maintained/developed" 14:08:29 Lycurgus: that's not death, but Godhood 14:08:34 Dodek, i interpret your statement that it's not being "actively banged on and maintained by a dedicated and responsive individual or team"??? Something like that? 14:09:15 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:17 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:09:55 dead and works is not a problem generally for me 14:10:11 I have to admit, I prefer have a "the oracle" (developer) around to ask questions, look for examples of corner cases, make up for documentation that should be there in the first place :-) (I'm kind of a doc hound) 14:10:51 in fact, dead, works, and is unencumbered is ideal 14:11:21 Then again, quite frequently a group picks up a code base (if it's any good to start with) and breathes new life into it. 14:12:07 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:12:51 Lycurgus: My favorite example I can think of of your "dead = good" code is Henry Spencer's classic argc/argv handling code. a .h/.c, both very tight iirc. 14:13:47 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442850.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:14:30 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-146-13.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:15:23 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:15:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:15:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:10 I'm an idiot. Henry Spencer's is the classic 2 page regex library (also a tight tour de force). The getopt code I'm thinking of is AT&T code released from the original Unix sometime in the late 80's or early 90's. Also a total 1 page wonder or so. 14:16:33 anyway, now two good examples of "dead + works = good" ;-) 14:16:51 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:18:58 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:22 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C07.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:19:34 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:20:09 Summermute66, acknowledged. 14:20:36 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:46 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has joined #lisp 14:20:54 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:22:00 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:22:57 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 14:23:21 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:24:46 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:53 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@p57AB49B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:32 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-74.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:30:11 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:31:32 minion: chant! 14:31:32 MORE DEAD 14:31:42 :-o 14:33:34 ahaha 14:33:42 minion: chant! 14:33:42 MORE DEAD 14:35:51 MORE LISPERS 14:35:56 minion: chant! 14:35:56 MORE LISPERS 14:36:05 raising the working and finished? 14:37:03 cmm: tomorrow I'll be introducing Lisp to few people :D 14:37:59 "a limited circle of limited people" 14:38:11 cmm: I hope to make it less limited :) 14:38:33 not dead people, i hope? 14:38:43 nope 14:38:51 although I look half-dead (Lich?) 14:38:52 stassats`: whatever it takes to widen the circle! 14:49:00 *vsync* rises 14:49:02 far far too early 14:50:15 segoe [n=segoe@83.231.96.184] has joined #lisp 14:50:20 hi 14:51:02 may i ask, is there any simpler object oriented system than CLOS? preferably prototype-based like Javascript? 14:51:06 benny [n=benny@i577A089E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:51:11 segoe: sheeple? 14:51:17 minion: tell segoe about sheeple 14:51:18 segoe: please look at sheeple: Sheeple is a Dynamic, CLOS-like, Delegative Prototype-based Object-Oriented Programming Framework (or "POOP Framework") that strives to optimize application flexibility, minimize cost while increasing value, maximize programmer resources, and empower application implementers to better assist them in leveraging modern paradigms in order to proactively achieve next-generation synergy in tomorrow's web 3.0 world. http://www.cliki. 14:51:43 wow he is good with the buzzwords 14:51:46 madnificent thanks :) 14:51:51 -!- pjb [n=t@85.169.61.208] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:07 segoe: it's nice, but it isn't completely finished yet. I think both sykopomp as Adlai like to have more people use it 14:52:25 it's not really my intent to use it 14:52:27 segoe: to my own limited experience: it is fun to work in :) 14:52:34 segoe: ? 14:52:50 i'm writing my own lisp-based language and would like a simple object system 14:53:03 i would like to look at other systems to learn from them 14:53:12 Ohyou're writing one from scratch? 14:53:14 it's always nice to learn how they do things 14:53:15 did you read AMOP? 14:53:15 segoe: then inform sykopomp, he might be able to give you some good pointers 14:53:37 schme: yup but it's neither CL nor scheme 14:53:44 segoe: good luck there :) 14:53:49 thanks :) 14:53:54 manuel_ [n=manuel@ping01.stura.uni-weimar.de] has joined #lisp 14:54:17 minion: tell segoe about AMOP 14:54:17 segoe: have a look at AMOP: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 14:54:45 the problem is i don't really like CLOS, is too complex for me 14:54:59 but i like some of the features 14:55:25 the object system i mostly like is Javascript's one, objects and cloning them around 14:56:30 segoe: Have you read Steve Yegge's blog post about prototype-based OO? 14:57:00 well, I can imagine the talk that might go around for whatever segoe is building. Yet another "It takes the best parts of lisp, because he looked at it"-language, without the needed features 14:57:24 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-69-221-161-162.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:34 cvandusen nope, do you have the link around? 14:57:50 madnificent i suposse sooner or later we all reinvent lisp or that or this wheel 14:58:05 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:58:08 it's not that i'm trying to build anything better or even suitable 14:58:29 segoe: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/10/universal-design-pattern.html 14:58:42 but it's nice to learn and to design a system for your own using or toying 14:59:01 cvandusen thanks i usually like reading Yegge 14:59:03 segoe: you may reinvent the wheel (as in lisp), but if you're doing... please don't claim you took the best of lisp if you don't know what it is all about 14:59:14 segoe: I do like it that you're building new stuff btw :P 14:59:53 I want to invent a language whose only practical purpose is to implement programming languages 14:59:59 :) 15:00:02 i didn't took the best of it 15:00:08 Just another slightly more recent idea to explore is complete separation of interface, implementation and data representation. Ends up solving quite a few problems in day-to-day use/combination/design of oop libraries. Googling or Citeseerx should turn up some interesting papers/examples. 15:00:18 cvandusen: you mean like lex/yacc? 15:00:23 in fact i probably didn't add a lot of features that were hard to implement 15:00:37 or that hurt performance too much 15:01:10 dlowe: Not sure. Are those useful outside of implementing languages? 15:02:00 now i'm looking to implement pattern matching and the OO :) 15:02:12 cvandusen: you and i could have a long talk.... 15:02:56 cvandusen nice article 15:03:20 segoe: I'm not arguing about it, I just got fed-up with looking at languages that claim to do it :D I whish you the best of luck and hope it'll be a nice language (and that you'll learn a lot from it) 15:04:13 ^^ 15:04:46 i don't know if it will be nice, but i'll sure be learning in the proccess 15:05:00 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.106] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 15:05:05 i made one big mistake though 15:05:27 there aren't any special forms in it 15:05:56 which i now regret, because there is no way to know when something is a definition for example at compile time 15:06:05 One feature of my current language is a special "syntax module" type that has access to a complete lex/yacc at compile time and like a macro system spits out native code at the end ("tnl" is the working title). Then inclusion of the module and start/end keywords trigger the "new" language in the source code. My goal is to get away from non-type checked strings as the "glue" that, say, ties together Java and SQL at the current tie. 15:06:19 According to Wikipedia, lex & yacc are programs. Without abstracting that ("program") too far, what I'm thinking of is a language who has no practical purpose except to design languages. 15:06:34 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:53 Summermute66 so you can modify the language syntax at runtime? 15:07:07 Much like HTML is only practical for creating web pages. 15:07:25 So imagine a language of user definable syntax modules and then a "high level" target language for these very extended "modules." 15:07:34 cvandusen: lex and yacc are implementations of languages that are only used to create parsers (and syntax-directed language processors). 15:07:39 i think there was a language like that 15:07:57 and you could write BNF in it and would be added as production rules in the syntax 15:07:57 Syntax modules must be compiled completely prior to use. So there are no "phase problems" 15:08:00 -!- pfoetchen [n=pfoetche@92.117.41.107] has quit ["leaving"] 15:08:23 Even if it's been done before, the idea is still intriguing 15:08:44 it's a great idea to explore 15:08:59 It's an old fashioned Edit/Compile Obj and Libs/Import Modules/Compile to .obj, link and deliver executable program style language. 15:09:06 i'm trying to explore on another idea too 15:09:13 the concept of first-class environments 15:09:32 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-35.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:09:36 which you can store in arrays, pass around or serialize to files and such 15:09:39 "Eventually, programmers are just frustrated language designers." 15:09:59 or even add privileges to them 15:10:21 (so you could have a networked repl and N users sharing their environment definitions or some subset of them) 15:10:38 cvandusen: agree 15:11:18 segoe: Exactly. "syntax modules" expect a lex and yacc specification. Only fun part is making an OO lex and OO yacc so that little bits and pieces can be changed conveniently without rewriting the BNF for the entire target language. 15:12:09 Luckily, I went through the process of implementing lex and yacc ~20 years ago, so I have some idea about how to begin on my easily modifiable ones. 15:13:00 segoe: ??? on the repl? 15:13:09 i may confess i never used yacc/lex or bison/flex for anything other than toys 15:13:36 No, curious your idea on networked repl / first class environments 15:13:43 I am not curious. 15:13:57 Summermute66 i thought it would be fun to try 15:14:21 and having them as first-class environments would also allow to save them to files and restart later 15:14:31 something like smalltalk image-based development 15:14:37 milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.194] has joined #lisp 15:15:11 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:16:06 Stranger things have been tried. About 8 years ago or so there was a very cool java based networked shell (repl) and iirc, it featured a shared environment (PATH="" style) to facilitate distributed execution of java programs. It was all open source and seemed well supported. Might still be an active project. 15:16:07 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:16:18 segoe: just food for thought: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 15:17:22 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:42 I spent just a few hours exploring first class env's, and everything (papers) were in the context of untyped (latently typed) languages. While I'm currently banging on Scheme, I'm building a typed language. Any work on 1st class env.s in a typed context? 15:18:10 H4ns it seems i'm not specially original :) 15:18:37 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:19:02 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:13 segoe: It's very hard to be original. First, you have to have performed an extensive literature search and then you have to actually assimilate and comprehend the state of the art. 15:19:30 segoe: Nothing original since 1958... 15:19:45 mmm, btw not really related... 15:20:06 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:20:08 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has joined #lisp 15:20:15 but a language i liked when collecting information was Tim Budd's Leda 15:20:25 great mix of paradigms in a single language 15:20:34 -!- weirdo is now known as Guest84718 15:21:12 metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:23 One of the things that *really* bothers me is that there are so many darn name spaces in programming language: classes, modules, structures, args and locals, Scala's objects, fancy ML style modules/functors and on and on and on. After, yes, 50+ years, you think we'd have some unifying concepts regardign namespace environments, but instead we have MORE. 15:23:37 mmm, but it's hard to unify them 15:24:13 it would be nice though to have some construct to search in installed libraries for example 15:24:55 Summermute66: Given the relative youth of programming, it's not surprising. Designers are exploring the phase space. I would think that eventually there will be a collapse (similar to biology, the Internet bubble, etc) 15:25:01 like you could get a list of all functions defined in the math:* namespace 15:25:16 Sure, I've tried :-) It's all the darn different public/private/export/rename (in some langs) and of course defaults on same for some name constructs. 15:25:18 but only the ones that take "floats" as parameters, reflective things like that 15:25:21 Summermute66, apropos user-definable syntax, have you seen Dave Moon's PLOT? 15:26:00 deepfire: Has anyone seen PLOT? I didn't think is was ever released. 15:26:07 jdz [n=jdz@84.237.142.223] has joined #lisp 15:26:09 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:26:14 "The Implementation So Bad It Doesn't Even Suck" 15:26:30 tmh: He gave a talk at ILC09 15:26:55 tmh, I might have been more accurate with my choice of words, sure. There is an informal specification, though. 15:27:10 s/might/could/ 15:27:30 I have looked at PLOT, but I think we have different goals. Again, i'm starting with a base language that is basically ML + OO + structural subtyping + CL complex lambda lists. So "very typed." 15:27:36 cvandusen: Listening to a talk and reading the spec is not remotely equivalent to wading in up to your neck. :-) 15:28:36 Maybe he pulled a Knuth and designed the entire thing in his head, wrote down the spec and is just sitting back grinning while some unsuspecting sap implements it for him. 15:28:46 tmh: true. To me it was yet another example of "This time I'm going to get it right" 15:29:07 cvandusen: Maybe he did, who can tell? 15:29:18 Not that there's anything wrong with that. 15:30:04 My syntax extension goals aren't to put together something in 2 days but in 2 weeks or 2 months - like a really high quality Oracle syntax embedded in the language; or a high quality Web3d (or whatever is cool these days) parser integrated with the base language. 15:30:17 So you see, different goals. 15:30:31 metalua may be of interest about the extensible syntax thing too 15:30:33 http://metalua.luaforge.net/ 15:30:43 Summermute66, are you sure you have looked at what Dave has done thoroughly enough? 15:31:00 Summermute66, I'm pretty sure it wasn't a work of two days. 15:31:07 segoe: There is no syntax. 15:32:00 tmh ? 15:32:25 Summermute66, these look like true extensible syntax, the way lisp macros are true macros. 15:33:07 No, not that Moon's work was 2 days; just that a "lispish" (yes, infix syntax, i know) macro system vs. a full blown lex/yacc + typed target language based system are going to be "good for different things" roughly stated. 15:34:36 segoe: Aside from FORMAT and LOOP, there really is no syntax in lisp, so there is no syntax extensibility problem. 15:35:26 aside from ' and # and : and ...... :) 15:35:27 ah, well i like lisp "syntax" or lack thereof 15:35:31 In other words, it might be accurate to say that my tNL language really doesn't feature "macros" per se - but a much different, heavy weight and relatively cumbersome syntax extension feature focused on "embedding" foreign languages into tNL rather than "extending" tNL. 15:35:36 How's that? 15:36:12 vsync: Bah, convenience features for wimps! ;-) 15:36:26 Write a Lisp reader and then a nice interpreter or better yeta compiler - plenty of 'syntax' in Lisp :-) 15:36:34 Summermute66: about "Oracle syntax embedded", you know about CLSQL and its sequence extensions right? 15:37:23 deepfire: based on comments and code in gencgc, I'm surprised to hear that pinned pages could ever be write protected. 15:37:41 Summermute66: mmm, i think my language parser is about 200 lines 15:37:46 deepfire: which code path in gencgc exhibits the behaviour you are describing on sbcl-devel? 15:37:52 Any idea what would cause an "Unhandled memory fault at #x2C" on SBCL? 15:37:59 (it doesn't parse full CL though) 15:38:10 lichtblau, like if I have an even remote chance of knowing that :-) 15:38:12 lichtblau: huh? Why wouldn't pinned pages be write protected? 15:38:18 Adlai: I've gotten that when using foreign code 15:38:24 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.200.207] has joined #lisp 15:38:33 or unsafe code 15:38:36 Xach, yes, this is using CFFI bindings to libglfw 15:38:46 Adlai: I don't really know much more than that, sorry. 15:39:05 Adlai: it happened to me a lot of times when using it on windows 15:39:19 No I don't, but with all of us today swimming in source code..... i'm not really working on the syntax extension "module" type yet. Lots of work to do getting a few intermediate representations put together (intricate stuff), a CPS style back end, the mechanics of compilation target directories, a library mechanism.... 15:39:19 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-209-197.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:30 stassats`, I'm pretty sure it has to do with the foreign code, because I was still getting this error when all my code had (declaim (optimize safety debug)) 15:40:00 A runtime system that supports BOTH gc and thread safe points, "idiomatic" concurrency syntax supported features (a design goal)...... 15:40:01 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 15:40:25 i have a lot or work to do before I really start to worry about SQL integration :-) 15:40:39 SQL integration? 15:40:47 like the C# LINQ thing? 15:41:53 Summermute66: what's the Lisp angle? 15:42:45 Adlai: through the magic of the map, i can see that you and cmm are practically neighbors! 15:43:08 Xach, indeed, we discovered this yesterday :) 15:43:26 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.111] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:43:31 Time for a lisp meeting. 15:44:04 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:44:06 I don't think we have enough here yet... I did start showing CL to a friend of mine though, and I think he's interested. 15:44:19 Oh, a couple of things. Alot of the runtime system is very much like what you might find inside of SBCL or LispWorks. 2nd I'm writing the compiler itself in Lisp - right now mostly PLT Scheme, but also CCL. Last, one of the generative concepts is to take CL2 ideals (my well thumbed copy) and adapting them to a typed language environmnet. OK? 15:46:42 BTW - General SBCL on Windoze question. What's the status? Are folks banging on it trying to keep it up to date? Working on native thread support? You know, that kind of thing. 15:46:50 Summermute66: Sounds really vague and not really of interest to a discussion forum for common lisp. 15:46:55 Summermute66 about typed lisps... 15:47:01 you may like Typed Scheme on PLT 15:47:02 Summermute66: nobody is working on Windows SBCL. 15:47:18 "typed" as in "statically typed"? 15:47:42 i'm using typed-scheme on PLT enough to find bug regularly :-) 15:47:58 Xach: That's a pity. 15:48:27 and that explains why it segfaults constantly to me on win32 15:48:38 Summermute66: Or an opportunity, I suppose. 15:48:45 -!- Guest84718 is now known as weirdo 15:48:46 Xach: earlierin the day I asked a very specific question about docs on ASDF, so tick off. 15:48:57 CCL works beautifully though 15:49:05 Summermute66: Hey, you get a free pass to talk with other people who have no interest in talking about Common Lisp. You win! 15:49:27 Xach: :p 15:49:29 Summermute66: If you want to talk about implementing your language with like-minded folks, try private discussion or your own channel. 15:49:33 I'm happily using CCL, but I like the larger community surrounding SBCL. Oh well. 15:49:41 pkhuong: well, ICBW about this. But my understanding of SBCL 0.8.3.23 is that this was explicitly done to avoid introducing what deepfire now describes as a bug. 15:50:02 lichtblau: a page could be write protected before it's ever pinned. 15:51:15 0.8.3.23. Roll back the years 15:51:15 In my case, restoring a core with the array dumped. 15:51:34 pkhuong: okay, makes sense 15:51:48 Xach:I'm just asking for a break. If you look above, i started out just casually answering some comments from another poster. I have no interest in "hijacking" #lisp.I'm way too busy. Okay? 15:51:53 -!- segoe [n=segoe@83.231.96.184] has quit [] 15:52:09 Summermute66: Then your interests and mine appear to be alignd. I would also like you to align your actions. 15:52:13 I'm still confused, is it really possible for us to write protect a page containing a unboxed array? 15:52:37 deepfire: did you take a look at static-vectors ? 15:52:53 I.e. everything appears to works fine (disclaimer: I'm not really vouching for this) while the array is created in live core, but breaks when the array comes from a dumped core. 15:53:27 ah, that could explain it 15:53:33 fe[nl]ix, I didn't really have had a motivation, I just touch the first by withing SB-SYS:W-P-O, for the time being. 15:54:03 Xach: Not sure on "alignment" - I'm a 43 former CEO and tend to do whatever the hell I like to do. But I *DO* believe that our interests are *VERY* aligned, and no problems should be forthcoming. 15:54:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:54:38 Ah, the plight of our society. 15:55:10 How about those Mets? 15:55:51 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@ping01.stura.uni-weimar.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:56:11 fe[nl]ix, I didn't really have had a motivation, I just touch the first byte of the vector within SB-SYS:W-P-O, for the time being. 15:58:00 kefka` [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:50 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:30 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:00:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:51 -!- GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:03 bah. I missed everything. 16:03:32 GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:05:22 lusory_ [n=bart@bb121-7-7-8.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:05:30 sykopomp: ? 16:05:52 no one linked him to my talk! :P 16:05:57 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:06:06 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:06:28 sykopomp: oh, the sheeple-kid 16:06:47 that's a horrible pun 16:06:48 sykopomp: I linked him to the cliki-page, isn't it linked from there (two links away or something like that?) 16:07:00 madnificent: probably 16:07:00 sykopomp: forgot his name 16:07:13 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:17 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:08:45 -!- lusory [n=bart@bb116-15-91-239.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:08:53 I'm probably overdoing the Cc thing. 16:11:16 -!- jdz [n=jdz@84.237.142.223] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 16:14:41 pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:17:00 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 16:17:38 -!- vng [n=vng@123.20.88.217] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:48 vng [n=vng@123.20.82.39] has joined #lisp 16:20:21 acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has joined #lisp 16:22:41 is there somewhere more documentation about rucksack than the eclm talk and the tutorial? 16:22:54 source code? 16:27:03 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:27:18 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:27:41 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest7818 16:28:32 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:16 does anyone remember the video visualization of cvs commits to sbcl? I think it had one dot per file or something, arranged in a circle, and commits were represented as distortions of that circle? 16:35:16 -!- Guest7818 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 16:35:41 Xof: I do remember something like that, but too vaguely to help, sorry. 16:35:48 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Bye!"] 16:37:16 yes. it didn't work very well for sbcl since all commits touched version.lisp-expr 16:37:32 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 16:38:51 I need some visuals for sbcl10 -- I'm open to other ideas, but I'll also steal anything that other people have produced 16:39:02 "need" is a bit strong, obviously 16:39:40 No bootstrap requirement. 16:39:42 http://www.vimeo.com/4074512 16:39:44 64-bit time_t. 16:40:18 If you mean future plans for SBCL. 16:41:00 -!- ASau [n=user@host27-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 16:41:20 um what? Oh well 16:41:54 -!- vng [n=vng@123.20.82.39] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:42:06 vng [n=vng@123.20.82.39] has joined #lisp 16:43:26 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [] 16:44:16 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:51 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:45:06 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:45:50 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:16 I don't think I knew that this thing came with a soundtrack 16:47:33 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:31 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BB9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:18 subhadeep [n=chatzill@64.86.141.133] has joined #lisp 16:49:50 prex [n=marco@host131-69-dynamic.58-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:51:59 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:27 -!- subhadeep [n=chatzill@64.86.141.133] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"] 16:53:51 SimonAdameit [n=simon@d131138.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:16 version.lisp-expr should be automated... the darcs guys just get the latest tag, and append the number of patches after it, something like "2.2.0 (+ 29 patches)" 16:54:29 something like that could work for sbcl i think 16:54:51 there's also git describe 16:55:54 hrm, it gives me "sbcl.1.0.14-846-g03d618c" on a repo that has 1.0.30+ stuff 16:56:42 stephen:~/sbcl % git describe --tags HEAD 16:56:42 sbcl.1.0.32-14-g3eae72c 16:57:00 that's sbcl 1.0.32.14 here 16:57:06 yep, that works here, too 16:58:51 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 16:59:07 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:59:22 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 16:59:36 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 17:01:36 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:00 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:04:28 ragnul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:05:49 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:08:37 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:09:24 -!- ragnul is now known as rahul 17:12:13 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:12:27 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 17:15:26 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:10 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:07 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-237-108.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:18 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 17:18:29 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:18:47 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:18:49 -!- silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has quit [] 17:18:53 Xof, I have an encoding-related problem, should I describe it here, or should I mail the list? 17:19:21 (Or should I use launchpad?) 17:19:44 if you can describe it in about 3 lines and a paste; here is fine; if you are certain that it's a bug, launchpad is fine; if neither of those, then the list 17:19:49 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:11 if it's related to restarts, then try my external-formats branch 17:21:37 Basically, there is a cyrillic Unicode string, which I convert by various means to cp866 and store the result as a string constant in a .lisp file. Then SBCL refuses to write that string to an :cp866 externally-formatted stream. 17:21:58 well, s/constant/defvar/ 17:22:58 The variety of means I employ to convert the string to cp866 gives me some level of confidence that the conversion was valid. 17:23:25 paste the error, please 17:23:41 sepi [n=sepi@82.113.121.7] has joined #lisp 17:23:55 -!- sepi [n=sepi@82.113.121.7] has left #lisp 17:24:03 -!- prex [n=marco@host131-69-dynamic.58-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 17:24:11 I can't do that now, but I will, as soon as I hit a win32 environment. 17:24:11 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:26 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:24:33 sepi [n=sepi@82.113.121.7] has joined #lisp 17:24:35 -!- sepi [n=sepi@82.113.121.7] has left #lisp 17:25:34 Joreji [n=thomas@40-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:25:37 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:37 dcrawford_ [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:38 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:25:41 My guess is that SBCL doesn't (and cannot) guess the encoding of the sources being compiled, and uses some default, likely Unicode. 17:25:51 -!- dcrawford_ is now known as dcrawford 17:26:47 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:11 The problem is, the win32 cyrillic console uses the archaic cp866 encoding, for some mysterious reason. And that cannot really be changed, despite there is an API for doing precisely this. 17:28:13 Basically, SetConsoleOutputCP doesn't work when the console font is a raster one. 17:28:37 um, that's what the external-format argument is for 17:28:48 (compile-file "your-file" :external-format :cp866) 17:28:57 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:29:14 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-35.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:29:14 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:29:14 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@24.201.189.65] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:29:14 -!- _3b [i=foobar@70.112.214.100] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:29:14 -!- wgl_ [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:29:14 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:29:14 -!- ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:29:14 -!- hdurer_ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-feijqnuhqxaelknv] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:29:14 -!- hdurer__ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ygucrkchjdgaftbl] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:29:41 Xof, thanks, looks like an opportunity to escape this deadlock for me! 17:29:43 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@220-136-229-143.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:29:48 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:07 (it uses the default based on your language settings: on windows that's from GetACP@0 17:30:45 I was getting desperate, prepared to employ babel to generate CP866 on the fly during compilation.. 17:31:06 it sounds like you are confused, but if this solves your problem, good 17:31:14 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-35.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:31:14 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has joined #lisp 17:31:14 lemoinem [n=swoog@24.201.189.65] has joined #lisp 17:31:14 ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 17:31:14 wgl_ [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 17:31:14 _3b [i=foobar@70.112.214.100] has joined #lisp 17:31:14 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 17:31:14 hdurer__ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ygucrkchjdgaftbl] has joined #lisp 17:31:14 hdurer_ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-feijqnuhqxaelknv] has joined #lisp 17:31:27 it makes no sense to talk about storing a string constant as cp866 in a file 17:31:54 jsnell: is a codeswarm without the version.lisp-expr/NEWS effect 17:32:03 I realised this while typing that line. Thanks! 17:32:18 also at 1 frame per day, so less of the boring bits 17:32:26 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-74.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 17:32:51 and with no soundtrack 17:32:55 Xof: Error 404. 17:33:00 what's the external url for that again? 17:33:22 whoops 17:33:27 http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/movie.avi 17:33:32 thx 17:33:55 sometimes I forget that the departmental server isn't just for my own purposes 17:34:01 overdrive [n=user@81.202.77.182.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:51 segoe [n=segoe@83.231.96.184] has joined #lisp 17:34:57 hi 17:36:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:39:02 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:02 dcrawford_ [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:07 -!- dcrawford_ [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 17:39:12 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:39:16 dcrawford_ [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:19 -!- dcrawford_ is now known as dcrawford 17:39:35 -!- _3b [i=foobar@70.112.214.100] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:39:35 -!- wgl_ [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:39:35 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-35.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:39:35 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:39:35 -!- ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:39:35 -!- hdurer_ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-feijqnuhqxaelknv] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:39:35 -!- hdurer__ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ygucrkchjdgaftbl] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:39:35 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@24.201.189.65] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:39:35 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:40:14 hey, in this one you can see that dan_b basically owned the runtime when it was just the three of us 17:40:57 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:41:40 gz [n=gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:47 demmeln1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:41:51 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 17:42:02 jsnell, your blog was removed from planet lisp. scandalous! we'll start protests at google HQ to demand you back... :) 17:42:04 -!- segoe [n=segoe@83.231.96.184] has quit [] 17:42:05 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 17:43:39 what is that peak in 2005-07? 17:44:02 whitespace 17:44:23 I think. if it's the bit where wnewman ends up owning everything, it's the whitespace normalization commit 17:44:50 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-228-61.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:11 clearly I am going to have to annotate this video with significant events 17:45:18 removing tabulators? 17:45:56 yes, and trailing whitespace 17:47:37 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:07 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:40 jenia [n=jenia@modemcable148.172-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:48:42 hello 17:49:36 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:59 -!- demmeln1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:49:59 tell me please, if you create a "container" class and then I define some methods 17:50:09 to manipulate the container class 17:50:12 like insider item 17:50:15 insert 17:50:41 if i want to invoke a method on the container class I have to pass the container object to the function 17:50:44 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:15 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:15 there is no sort of java equivalent to containerObject.insert(key, element) 17:51:32 antifuchs, hi! do you have an init.d script for sbcl on gentoo ? 17:51:32 ? 17:51:33 thanks 17:51:37 jenia: a container class? 17:51:44 jenia: do you want to use a hash, maybe? 17:51:56 yea, exactly 17:52:02 kiuma: I don't run gentoo (: 17:52:03 but i want to define it myself 17:52:08 clhs hashmap 17:52:08 so, sorry, probably not 17:52:09 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for hashmap. 17:52:14 oh 17:52:24 clhs maphash 17:52:25 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_maphas.htm 17:52:25 object.insert(args) is syntactic sugar for (insert object args) 17:52:27 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 17:52:27 I have been using Xach's screen scripts on debian recently, and they work pretty well. 17:52:30 jenia: you can create a list containing everything 17:52:39 wgl_ [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 17:52:41 so can i call function on an object like in java or do i have to pass the object to the function manipulating it 17:52:41 ? 17:52:44 hdurer__ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-byxigzjlqbktzjel] has joined #lisp 17:52:44 hdurer_ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ltcljfgfgheerqgg] has joined #lisp 17:52:49 ok 17:52:52 or syntactic salt, however you want to put that 17:52:58 This is what I love about ill-specified questions, shotgun responses. 17:53:51 jenia: how is foo.(bar, baz); different from (foo bar baz) 17:54:26 one is illegal syntax in java, and the other is on-topic in #lisp 17:54:31 ok, thanks. no i;m just wondering if maybe i missed something. 17:54:36 thanks 17:55:00 madnificent, maybe you meant foo.bar(baz) and (bar foo baz) ? 17:55:13 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 17:55:21 -!- Kolyan[away] is now known as Kolyan 17:55:50 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:56:50 Adlai: yeah 17:56:57 Adlai: I think it served its purpose though 17:58:56 segoe [n=segoe@62.32.229.196] has joined #lisp 18:00:43 ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 18:03:19 jenia, there's no 'this' in CLOS. java's 'this' and the difference between the handling the first and the other arguments is just a confusion inherited from C++... 18:03:53 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:53 does anyone know why when I (cons 'a 'b) i get (A . B)? 18:04:13 because that's what is supossed you should get 18:04:16 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has joined #lisp 18:04:16 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:04:45 jenia: what do you want to do ? 18:04:47 -!- Ginei_Morioka is now known as Guest2832 18:04:47 -!- lemoinem is now known as Guest28110 18:05:32 i want to insert two strings into a list 18:05:57 the strings are passed as arguments to a function 18:06:14 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:06:17 insert where? do you want to make a fresh list? 18:06:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:06:36 yup 18:06:44 (list string1 string2) 18:06:47 jenia: (list string1 string2) 18:06:51 jinx 18:06:53 thanks 18:07:03 jenia: where are you learning lisp from? 18:07:14 jenia: and what kind of application are you building? 18:07:27 or... 18:07:31 (cons "hello" (cons "world" nil)) 18:08:21 -!- Guest28110 [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:08:21 -!- Guest2832 [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:08:21 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-vewleslxdogechfa] has quit [Success] 18:08:36 i learning lisp from the net and im building a hash table 18:08:47 Guest2832 [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has joined #lisp 18:08:47 Guest28110 [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:08:48 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:09:25 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:09:36 *tmh* envisions some AI guru on the net teaching lisp. 18:09:53 The net personified. 18:10:11 hmm... I just got told several times that threading on IA-64 will make my head explode :3 18:10:45 18:55 < Hoff> Threading. On OpenVMS I64. Will. Make. Your. Head. Explode. :-) 18:11:05 makes me want to get I64 machine even more just to try gettign SBCL running on it ;P 18:11:42 Xof: fun little movie. the whitespace explosion was amusing 18:14:26 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:14:37 p_l: getting sbcl to just run on ia64 would be an achievement 18:15:05 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-10-212.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:15:32 froydnj: doing that with your own threading implementation would be sufficient to get wizard rating ;-) 18:18:32 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:19:07 *shamwow* would like to know if (intern ...) only creates symbols in the lexical environment in which it was used, or if they become interned in the greater package 18:20:15 shamwow: INTERN interns symbols in the package given as the second argument or in *PACKAGE* if not specified 18:21:20 froydnj: also, interesting would be to have the compiler interleave instructions in different slots instead of using static vops 18:21:40 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:50 p_l: there's a working instruction scheduler 18:21:58 Xof: yay 18:22:04 does that count? It's turned on on the ppc and sparc backends, I think 18:22:30 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:22:35 Xach: thank you. I've got a 2nd-ary question to that - I'd like to create a hash or alist where the keys are all accessible via something like (assoc 'key-name alist), however all the keys I'm parsing are coming in as strings. Is it bad form to (intern) all the strings to make them keys in a hash instead of living with string-keys? 18:22:46 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 18:23:12 In other words - instead of (assoc 'key...) I'd have to use (assoc "key"...), which is going to be cumbersome 18:23:16 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@d131138.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:23 And I'd like a way around that 18:23:41 shamwow: it's not especially bad form 18:24:14 Xof: pretty sure it's on for mips 18:24:15 shamwow: on the other hand, if the string is "key", you will have to type something like '|key| 18:24:39 I doubt the existing instruction scheduler would be up for bundling IA64 instructions, though. 18:24:42 Xach: so you see where it becomes cumbersome? 18:24:49 shamwow: so you'd have to upcase it (which is also not uncommon). you might consider interning in the keyword package so you can use (assoc :key ...) 18:25:21 Xach: could you explain that a bit more? 18:25:25 shamwow: I don't know, if you're getting strings as keys from some source, I don't think the physical data entry of strings for interactive lookup is that cumbersome. 18:25:47 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:26:45 Xach: typing the key names as strings (i.e. '|key|) is not terribly tedious, but I'd like to make the whole thing easier for others by using 'key. 18:27:19 shamwow: '|key| is a symbol, not a string. "key" would be a string. 18:28:58 Xach: what does | do? Is it for upcasing? 18:29:18 GiancarloBatista [n=nobody@Wabc8.w.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:33 Xach: And is that a way around (intern...)'ing strings - to (add-key-to-hash '|string|)? 18:30:01 Xach: or (add-key-to-hash '|"string"|)? 18:30:51 shamwow: a symbol that prints as |foo| has the exact symbol-name "foo". you can use pipes to put characters in that might otherwise get converted to upcase by the reader or that might need escaping. 18:31:15 Xach: I see 18:31:25 shamwow: |fribble dibble (dop)!| is how a symbol with a symbol-name of "fribble dibble (dop)!" might print, for example. 18:31:37 shamwow: Before you were talking about alists. Are you using a hash table? 18:31:38 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:03 shamwow: if you're using a hash table, you can use a :test argument that does the right thing for strings. 18:32:17 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-2-111.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:32:17 shamwow: if you're using an alist, you can use a :test at lookup time that does the right thing for strings. 18:32:19 Xach: I'm assuming that keys for both work similarly, aside from the :test 18:32:51 Xach: I was originally going with a hash, but then decided alist as my set is not huge 18:34:25 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ohmntqyldjtzcuuu] has joined #lisp 18:36:30 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:37:03 *Xach* has a personal utility called (defun make-string-table (&key case-sensitive) ...) because he needs string-useful hash tables frequently on some projects. 18:37:35 Xach: is it somewhere I could peek at? 18:38:16 the ... is (make-hash-table :test (if case-sensitive 'equalp 'equal)) 18:38:25 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:38:54 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:34 antifuchs, but do you have an initscript for sbcl ? 18:40:47 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:41:22 I'm trying to make http://www.wingstech.it/claw/site/index.html start as a service 18:43:44 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 18:45:20 fjji [n=ojof@92.82.77.29] has joined #lisp 18:45:21 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:25 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 18:45:38 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:46:00 Good evening! 18:46:25 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 18:47:42 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:48:01 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:48:51 Good evening Robert! 18:49:20 Hey beach 18:49:23 deepfire: So when are you come for a visit to my low-energy house with solar panels. 18:49:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:31 -!- gz [n=gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:51:16 beach, not sooner than when child grows up enough to make us mobile.. 18:51:32 I can wait. 18:52:05 I mean, that's just a matter of a few decades, right :) 18:52:43 beach, more like a few years, hopefully :-) 18:52:58 *beach* shows his ignorance about children. 18:53:54 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:54:47 Good evening beach! 18:54:55 My wife is actually desperate enough to consider taking him with us for weeks-long mountain trips. 18:54:57 hello maus 18:55:11 deepfire: Sure, why not! 18:55:32 mountain air is bad for children. 18:55:51 Anyway, I moved out when I was 14, but I hear that some kids stay until they are almost 30 these days. 18:56:11 beach, I'd agree, but she wants it to happen next year :-) 18:56:25 What's the age of the kid again? 18:56:30 5 months.. 18:56:40 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:41 deepfire: That's a bit young to manage your own household. 18:57:26 I would like to say "bye bye", i'm going to sleep now. It's bed time :) 18:57:36 See you tomorrow beach ! 18:57:49 maus: Sure, it's late for you. 'night! 18:58:25 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-29-169.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:58:29 beach: Thank you! 18:58:30 beach: good night! 18:58:52 'night vng 18:59:04 -!- vng [n=vng@123.20.82.39] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:59:21 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:59:23 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:56 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.75.149] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:59:58 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-35-12.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:00:22 vng and maus are my are students of mine in Ho Chi Minh city, in case someone didn't know. 19:02:58 p0a [n=user@athedsl-380387.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:03:10 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:03:15 Hello how do I tell DEFMETHOD something like (defmethod foo ((x something) (k positive)) ...) 19:03:23 I want k to be a natural number 19:03:37 p0a: You can't. 19:03:48 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:02 methods specialize on classes (as opposed to types) and natural number is not a class. 19:04:16 Xach: I've got some code where I'm trying to do something with the alist up, would you mind taking a look at it? I feel like it's going wrong somewhere and going slowly 19:04:29 beach: I thought types are classes 19:04:31 anyway, thanks 19:04:36 I'll just have a run-time check 19:04:41 shamwow: sure, http://paste.lisp.org/ is a fine place to put it, or you can send it to xach@xach.com 19:04:42 p0a: No, but classes are types. 19:04:57 p0a, have a look at filtered dispatch by Pascal Costanza 19:05:02 p0a: Otherwise you would have an infinite number of classes. 19:05:23 beach: can you explain? 19:05:28 deepfire: found it, thanks 19:05:33 (found the paper) 19:05:55 p0a: well, you can define a type which is any range of integers, and there is an infinite number of such ranges. 19:05:58 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-4-9.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:06:03 p0a, the implementation is page-long, I think it's in the end of the paper. 19:06:55 you can also define types using SATISFIES 19:07:20 thanks 19:07:21 ... and that's even more devastating. 19:07:55 p0a: classes are an attribute of an object 19:08:03 they're intrinsic to the object itself 19:08:16 types are categories that an object could fit into 19:08:32 (defclass dictionnary() 19:08:32 ((elements :accessor dictionnary-elements 19:08:32 :initform '()))) 19:08:32 (defmethod insertItem ( k e (d dictionnary) ) 19:08:32 (setf (dictionnary-elements d) (cons (combine k e) (dictionnary-elements d)))) 19:08:33 (defmethod combine (k e) 19:08:33 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 19:08:35 (list k e )) 19:08:37 ;; why doesnt this insertitem method work? 19:08:39 ;;it gives me: Lambda list (K E D) is not congruent with the lambda list (K E D ;;QUOTE) 19:08:41 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has joined #lisp 19:08:41 ;;of #. 19:08:42 I've sent it to http://github.com/eshamay/lisp-md and the file of interest is prmtop-file.lisp, which parses the prmtop I have in there 19:08:44 jenia: use paste.lisp.org/new/lisp/ next 19:08:50 minion: tell jenia about lisppaste 19:08:51 -!- varjag [n=eugene@62.97.226.122] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:08:51 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:09:03 ok tanx 19:09:22 jenia: it is "dictionary" 19:09:37 jenia: you can use PUSH instead of SETF and CONS 19:09:47 jenia: And don't use CamelCase. 19:10:12 jenia: what implementation are you using? 19:10:21 jenia: and don't precede the first ')' in a group by space, and don't put a space after the last '(' of a group. 19:10:34 shamwow: acons is a non-destructive function. it doesn't work like push. 19:10:40 jenia: also, it is customary to put the most important argument of a function first. put the dictionary first 19:10:52 Xach: so I need to (setf alist...) 19:10:56 shamwow: right. 19:11:10 jenia: but... why don't you use a hash table? 19:11:18 ok, thanks i will use push 19:11:27 but does anyone know whats the problem with this definition? 19:11:33 shamwow: and the same with nconc 19:11:34 rahul, it appears she/he wants to implement one 19:11:35 i want to define it myself 19:11:50 coderdad [n=coderdad@adsl-64-218-219-214.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:54 jenia: Impossible to tell unless you use lisppaste, indent correctly, and fix your spacing. 19:11:54 Xach: hmmm... I tested it out and nconc seems to be working the way I have it in there 19:12:22 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-48-71.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:39 quodlibetor [n=user@146.95.21.236] has joined #lisp 19:12:40 tanx 19:12:46 shamwow: CLers also use (if foo ...) instead of (if (not (null foo)) ...) 19:12:53 rahul: I understand. You mean an object has a unique class but may fit several types 19:12:56 rahul: correct? 19:13:12 jenia: Things like indentation in spacing is not just tight-ass rules on our part; we are trying to tell you that if you don't respect them, we won't understand your code (unless we spend an unreasonable amount of effort), so asking us to figure it out anyway is a bit rude on your part. 19:13:50 Xach: I was ... not sure why I did that... 19:14:07 i'm not trying to be rude. i'm new to mirc and i dont know the usual rules 19:14:27 jenia: Right, that's why I am letting you know. 19:14:33 i'm only trying to learn lisp and i really cant find the error in this function insertitem, so i asked for help 19:14:34 Xach: so (while line ...) as opposed to (while (not (null line)) ...) 19:14:42 but thank you for letting me know 19:14:57 p0a: True, each (?) object in CL has a class, but some of them have several (sometimes an infinite number of) types. 19:15:04 shamwow: right. 19:15:15 shamwow: and same for format-p, flag-p 19:15:22 shamwow: (and i'd name those formatp and flagp) 19:15:24 jenia: Start by putting your code into lisppaste. 19:15:28 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-vlrdhsoonkceovwo] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:15:29 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 19:15:36 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:16:12 Xach: aside from the naming and convention, you don't spot anything odd with the business logic in the file loading function? 19:16:40 i already did, but unfortunately its in this format 19:16:59 jenia: Nothing showed up here. 19:17:10 ok two minutes 19:17:18 jenia: When you put your code into lisppaste, usually we get a URL here that we can click on. 19:17:36 shamwow: I haven't looked that hard. I'm not sure what the file format looks like; it might be easier to see an example input/output than to try to deduce the format from the code. 19:17:37 jenia, make sure the form says it's sending to #lisp 19:17:58 Xach: if you check out 'prmtop' in the github repo it's an example file 19:18:03 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:09 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:14 Hey slyrus_! 19:18:16 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-kqwmwuazsychjeqo] has joined #lisp 19:18:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 19:19:05 gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 19:20:23 jenia pasted "strange error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90115 19:20:47 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-154-252.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:44 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@40-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:22:11 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:46 jenia: Works for me. 19:23:00 jenia: How did you compile this? 19:23:08 really, u can compile this? 19:23:21 using lispworks 19:23:36 jenia: I am sure this is possible. 19:23:47 jenia: use the function browser to see if there is something strange about insert-item already 19:23:55 actually, no 19:24:04 I think you might just be invoking it wrong 19:24:05 serichsen annotated #90115 "refactoring" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90115#1 19:24:06 jenia: You should also know that this channel frowns upon the use of silly SMS-type abbreviations like `u'. 19:24:37 if you're going to abbreviate something, it should be saving more than 2 letters, as a general rule :) 19:24:38 ok, thanks beach 19:24:48 jenia, do you want a Lisp style guide? 19:24:53 thank you rahul 19:24:59 jenia, I suggest you read one 19:25:01 yes please 19:25:13 rahul: rahul Even then, there is no excuse. Because it shows you are not mastering your tools. 19:25:44 beach: well, for long words like abbreviate, sometimes it's worth abbreviating :) 19:25:46 Joreji [n=thomas@40-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:25:57 jenia: lisp already has hashtables, too 19:26:19 jenia, start with mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt 19:26:22 jenia: so if you want something that wraps up the associations into a clean object, that's all you need 19:26:35 ok thanks 19:26:49 rahul: I know how this discussion is going: Use Emacs abbrevs. I am not using Emacs. But perhaps you should. But I don't like it. Why not, it saves you time by letting you use abbrevs. etc. etc. etc. 19:27:15 minion, style 19:27:15 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``style''. 19:27:17 the problem was that i aslready compiled some code, and something was interfering with the new methods that i defined 19:27:19 rahul: I take it you don't use Emacs abbrevs. 19:27:29 beach: heh... well, I'm talking about conversation, not coding 19:27:36 That crime is almost worse than not reading Planet Lisp. 19:27:36 beach: M-tab works for me :) 19:27:36 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:51 gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 19:27:51 rahul: Apparently not, since you think some abbreviations are justified. 19:27:53 jenia: yeah, it could be that 19:28:03 beach: in conversation, not in code 19:28:10 damn, i lost about one hour on this 19:28:17 rahul: I used to be surprised, but when I found out that not even antifuchs is using Emacs abbrevs, I was shocked, but then realized I am one of the few. 19:28:32 okay thanks for your help 19:28:32 beach: I find that M-tab does most of what I need 19:28:44 ~^ stops processing 19:28:51 but how can I offer an alternative instead? 19:28:51 especially with slime's crazy completion 19:29:00 rahul: I am asking why, if that makes you justify letting your conversation partner see that you are abbreviating things instead of being polite and having Emacs expand them for you. 19:29:20 rahul: Apparently not, since you think that it is OK to leave some abbreviations in there. 19:29:59 beach: for long words that are being used frequently in the conversation, I think it's fine 19:30:03 For example, (format t "~{~A~^,.~}" '(1 2 3)) prints "1, 2, 3." 19:30:05 Something like that. 19:30:14 but stuff like "u" is just unnecessary 19:30:35 rahul: But I must say Xach is OK. Only very old people like me cannot afford to waste any time, but young people not only do that, but let their conversation partners suffer as well. Long live the young. 19:30:40 p0a: ~{~A~^,~}. 19:30:43 I actually type everything. Sometimes, using w-h-o in a conversation about with-html-output is OK. 19:30:45 When it comes to Lisp coding style, I found http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps quite helpful. 19:31:04 rahul: thanks :D 19:31:11 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:31:19 beach: well, there's no fuzzy-complete for IRC 19:31:22 -!- jenia [n=jenia@modemcable148.172-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:39 rahul: You don't need it if you use Emacs abbrevs. 19:31:44 and I'm not sure how abbrevs will help... they're even more rigid 19:31:59 ljames, I almost suggested that to jenia, but I felt it'd be a little too involving for hew level of problems 19:32:04 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:32:11 *her 19:32:17 beach: how would I get "conv" to complete to either conversation or conversion based on the context with abbrevs? 19:32:26 rahul: I am afraid you are wrong. I have used them for a long time, and I have hard figures that show how much typing they save me. 19:32:35 well, she didn't mention what Lisp book she was studying from 19:32:51 beach: which IRC client do you use? 19:32:59 I wonder how much time was wasted with abbrev advocacy that didn't have any effect. 19:33:01 fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:08 hehe 19:33:11 rahul: You don't. You make two different abbrevs, neither of one might be a prefix. This is a known technique, and was called "shorthand" when done on paper. 19:33:19 rahul: ERC 19:33:57 *tmh* is in "Get It Working"(tm) mode and the ugliness of the code is nearly unbearable. 19:34:09 How can I print "X" for T and "Y" for nil with a single ~? 19:34:11 rahul: But according to Xach, knowing that just makes me old. Long live the young people who waste their lives and put burdens on their conversation partners. 19:34:19 Xach, cultural advancements are not free.. 19:34:25 p0a: ~[ or ~:[ or whatever 19:34:38 forget which one was boolean vs. numerical vs. case dispatch 19:34:52 heh 19:34:58 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:35:12 beach: I think context is important in converstation anyway, so using context-based abbreviation isn't a big deal 19:35:27 clhs ~[ 19:35:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm 19:35:35 rahul, wait, I think ~:[Y~;X~] is precisely that he needs 19:35:36 *beach* will stop there, because he can see that rahul must be young. 19:36:03 rahul, wait, I think ~:[~:*Y~;~:*X~] is precisely that he needs 19:36:19 Aww, screw the second one. 19:36:31 I think you had it right the first time :) 19:36:37 gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 19:36:46 rahul: ~[ is for numerical dispact, ~:[ boolean 19:37:00 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:37:01 beach: 2000 is the decade of the dynamic. lisp and abbreviations 19:37:19 p0a: I guess you're all set then :) 19:37:24 yep, thanks 19:39:09 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:39:37 rahul: For some reasons, over time, your arguments sound exaclty like the ones I hear against Lisp. Time to convert to Ruby? 19:40:45 ntd [n=user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has joined #lisp 19:40:54 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:41:17 They laughed at Einstein, you know. 19:42:30 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:42:38 Xach: That was because of his hair, no one laughed at his ideas. 19:42:56 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:20 Then he and Bozo the Clown have *two* things in common. 19:43:33 he didn't shower much, either 19:43:42 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:43:56 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:44:26 beach: well, lisp is also context-sensitive :) 19:44:30 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:33 beach: local macros ftw! 19:44:42 oh, there's another abbrev :P 19:44:43 itym"For The Win" 19:45:06 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@adsl-64-218-219-214.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:45:12 *rahul* imagines beach clawing his eyes out 19:45:23 gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 19:46:15 -!- shamwow [n=user@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has left #lisp 19:48:16 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:23 "fail the writing" 19:48:32 sigh. html2text doesn't cope with hevea's output of $# entities 19:48:34 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 19:48:42 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:53 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 19:49:44 Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 19:50:09 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:50:44 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:41 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 19:51:44 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:56 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:02 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:12 rahul: you can get tex4ht to output unicode characters directly (as utf-8, maybe other encodings also). 19:52:35 How should I split a format string? 19:52:42 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 19:52:44 It's pretty big and it's over the 80 characters limit 19:52:49 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:58 clhs #\Newline 19:52:58 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for #\Newline. 19:53:02 hmm 19:53:08 posix crypt 19:53:08 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xsh/crypt.html 19:53:08 pkhuong: well, I don't want the unicode in my text file, either... I want plain 7 bit ASCII 19:53:22 clhs 22.3.9.3 19:53:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cic.htm 19:53:37 p0a, ^^ 19:53:40 p0a: um, a format control that's over 80 chars? 19:53:41 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 19:53:54 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:09 and I think newlines in format control strings are ignored 19:54:09 gz [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 19:54:10 rahul, let's hope it's mostly text, not format controls... 19:54:17 Adlai: yes, indeed 19:54:19 Could I possibly write a read macro for this job? 19:54:23 *Adlai* thinks rahul didn't read 22.3.9.3 19:54:23 p0a: yes 19:54:30 Any ideas how it should look like? 19:54:35 I like the way C concatenates strings in source 19:54:45 *Adlai* wonders whether p0a read it either 19:54:49 right, if you prefix it with a ~ 19:54:50 "foo" "bar" is "foobar". In lisp that doesn't work but I can add a readmacro 19:55:12 p0a: Adlai already gave you the solution that is specifically made for format strings 19:55:20 I am about to look to it 19:55:40 lispm [n=joswig@e177144247.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:42 in lisp why don't you just type "foobar"? 19:56:02 you need it in C because of preprocessor macros and the like 19:56:03 Krystof: Decorative reasons 19:56:06 apparently p0a's "foobar" string has 78 #\os 19:56:16 In C you /need/ it, but it can also be used for decorative purposes 19:56:25 in common lisp, you don't need it, but it can be used for those purposes. 19:57:38 Adlai: less, if you add the indentation level... 19:57:45 but it looks much better now! 19:58:08 ok, rather than trying to write a readmacro for "foo" "bar", I'd suggest writing a readmacro that understands newline escapes. Except if you're using format strings, where ~ already works :-) 20:00:24 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:02 all this headache with converting formats just shows how much I need to make defdoc fully-featured 20:02:37 in other news, how do I get a presentation in a CLIM app to dynamically update? 20:03:19 I guess what I need is for objects that were presented before to get refreshed every command... is that automatic? 20:04:22 francogrex [n=user@41.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:05:49 Hi, what is a good web browser written in common lisp (I'm trying to get w3m working with emacs but would like to know if anyone uses a cl browser) 20:05:56 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@40-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:06:15 francogrex: CL with emacs? 20:06:26 francogrex: no such thing 20:06:28 the simple answer is that there isn't a good CL browser 20:06:33 _good_ 20:06:41 but I don't know how a good CL browser would help you in emacs 20:06:48 rahul, ok even a bad one is ok for me 20:07:11 it's very bad, but it should be fixable 20:07:13 rahul, i don't nned emacs necessarilyu, just a text browser 20:07:14 minion: closure? 20:07:15 closure: Closure is a free web browser written completely in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/closure 20:07:28 I want to be discreete in browsing 20:07:49 another option: commonqt + qtwebkit 20:08:32 stassats: ok 20:08:40 closure isn't text based 20:08:45 stassats`, is that a browser? 20:08:49 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-35.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 20:08:57 deepfire: what? 20:09:04 although, I guess it theoretically could be :) 20:09:05 no it seems it's a GUI 20:09:08 stassats`, your another option 20:09:47 deepfire: well, given qtwebkit you can easily write one 20:10:02 So, SMOP. 20:10:04 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:13 and i missed "text" requirement 20:10:32 deepfire: well, comparing with w3m, it's really a simple matter 20:10:50 one could write a text backend for McCLIM 20:11:28 the reason I want text based is for discreetness 20:15:11 -!- fjji [n=ojof@92.82.77.29] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:17:19 how is text more "discreet"? 20:17:26 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@79.136.60.147] has quit [] 20:17:59 it doesn't shout at you from a flash video 20:18:26 say if it is within emacs, one would think that's it's just a text document 20:18:57 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 20:19:03 ah, something like an inherent boss screen 20:19:19 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95.24.218.96] has quit [] 20:19:52 but, it's not very suitable for porn 20:20:04 well, no porn 20:20:43 it's just a simple google, or google scholar brwser 20:23:20 oh dear 20:23:27 the cl-user map seems to have hit a simultaneous marker limit 20:24:14 what is this limit? 20:24:35 Xach, what, we need ALU buy us a corporate account! 20:24:51 stassats`: I'm not sure, but now the map has multiple pages, and four of the users show up on the second page. so if you are browsing the main map, you don't see the markers for those four users. 20:25:11 Ah, UI bug. 20:25:30 deepfire: It doesn't seem like an accidental feature, just an unpleasant one. 20:25:48 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.49.80] has joined #lisp 20:28:16 i want to store three functions in a list and then run the functions based on input 20:28:36 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@146.95.21.236] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:28:43 rares: so, what's the problem? 20:28:55 rares, are function names known during compile-time? 20:29:34 nope they're all anonymous they just have a particular position in the list 20:30:52 rares, so, (funcall-or-apply (nth list i) ...)? 20:31:01 -!- cow-orker [n=user@c541745C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:05 rares, so, (funcall-or-apply (nth i list) ...)? 20:31:37 Xach: "unfeature" 20:31:53 i assume flet will involved? 20:32:03 rares: why flet? 20:32:05 rahul: no need. 20:32:08 sorry, rares. 20:32:19 rares: you store the functions in the list, no? 20:32:24 yes 20:32:37 rares: then flet has nothing to do with executing the function 20:32:47 you might put a function that's defined in an flet into the list 20:33:17 how do i define a function inline and store it in the list? 20:33:30 clhs lambda 20:33:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 20:33:53 so lambda actually returns a function? 20:33:59 that's exactly what it does 20:34:01 correct 20:34:12 i thought it just creates it for use 20:34:23 yes 20:34:24 it does... 20:34:27 rares, you appear to need some lisp book reading, like PCL 20:34:27 right, you can use it 20:34:34 but how do you use it if you don't have it 20:34:35 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:34:52 minion, tell rares about PCL 20:34:53 rares: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:35:02 I am disappointed that Lisp does not allow me to create enough objects that I can simply decorate my (room) with. 20:35:20 sometimes, you don't -need- something to be 'useful'. 20:35:31 sykopomp: (defclass table ...) (defclass chair ...) 20:35:47 if it's not useful, it's garbage 20:35:48 (defproto table ..) maybe ;) 20:35:50 and will be collected :) 20:36:10 i've read onLisp 20:36:20 just confused on the semantics 20:36:21 rares: well, that's your first mistake 20:36:26 ^ 20:36:34 rares: On Lisp is an intermediate lisp book 20:36:58 rares: and teaches quite a bit of bad style in the name of teaching obscure techniques 20:37:47 and pushing PG's agenda of "want scheme, do lisp" 20:37:49 :P 20:37:53 if On Lisp is intermediate, what counts an advanced? 20:37:56 Let Over Lambda? 20:38:01 *sykopomp* giggles. 20:38:10 haha 20:38:14 Adlai: AMOP? 20:38:22 -!- thermal_ [n=thermal@c-24-18-249-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:24 the spec itself? 20:38:30 I don't think there are any advanced lisp books, actually 20:38:32 M-. 20:38:41 heh sure, spec and M-. work 20:38:45 Advanced Lisp: Code. 20:38:46 thermal_ [n=thermal@c-24-18-249-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:10 I'd consider AMOP low-advanced... 20:39:22 but it's not really Common Lisp :P 20:39:24 ok so (setf varname (lambda (argmint) (do stuff) inputz)) 20:39:27 ? 20:39:35 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 20:39:54 rares: what are you trying to do? 20:39:55 sykopomp, AMOP not really CL!? 20:40:02 sg [n=gika@83.231.77.136] has joined #lisp 20:40:11 Adlai, no, it wasn't ready in time. 20:40:31 you can use FLET/LABELS, which are more convenient in certain situations. 20:40:32 rares: (setf foo (lambda (x) (do stuff))) 20:40:42 Adlai: nope. It's not part of the standard. 20:40:43 deepfire, oh right, Closette has those funny not-quite-CL-isms 20:40:45 well, AMOP is not teaching CL, but it's teaching how to write CL code 20:41:06 rares: But with you wanting lotsa anon functions in a list maybe you should look into PUSHing dem LAMBDAs 20:41:08 and Closette doesn't actually use CL, either. At least not the version presented in the main body of the book. 20:41:32 sykopomp: how is it non-compliant code? 20:41:40 rahul, it's sub-compliant 20:42:12 I mean, it works except for the hook into the type system which is clearly indicated as being impl-dependent 20:42:13 rahul: I seem to remember the version presented in the body of the book expecting an EVAL that can evaluate in a particular lexical environment. 20:42:23 sykopomp: oh, maybe 20:42:40 it also has that "portability" layer though for printing objects 20:42:54 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 20:43:02 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:10 with things like #+genera and #-lucid 20:43:14 oof 20:43:26 too much habanero in the mexican food last night... 20:43:35 see i didn't know the "inputz" was optional 20:43:50 rares: (setf foo (lambda (x) (1+ x))) (funcall foo 5) 20:44:02 rares: does On Lisp actually never use lambda? 20:44:09 oh maybe it doesn't use funcall 20:44:46 it uses lambda it didn't explain that if you leave out the arguments it just return the function 20:44:47 no, I'm still confused as to what your confusion is... you really should read an intro lisp book 20:45:03 rares: lambda doesn't have anywhere to put the arguments 20:45:42 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 20:45:57 (lambda (arg1 arg2) (do stuff) argmint1 argmint2) 20:46:01 rares: (setf foo (list (lambda (x) (1+ x)) (lambda (x) (* 2 x)))) (funcall (first foo) 1) ... and there you have your list of functions. 20:46:08 rares: that is not the syntax at all 20:46:10 ((lambda (x) (list x)) 5) => (5) 20:46:31 oh 20:46:37 where could he have learned that syntax? 20:46:47 does PG honestly use that ugly syntax? 20:47:00 *Adlai* shrugs 20:47:04 long time no On Lisp 20:47:13 not quite like that, just didn't explain the semantics right 20:47:13 -!- gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:23 gz` [n=gz@209.6.40.245] has joined #lisp 20:47:49 -!- francogrex [n=user@41.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:51 rares: because your intro book was supposed to have taught that already 20:47:53 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 20:48:02 rares: ((lambda (arg1 arg2) (do stuff)) argmint1 argmint2) maybe? 20:48:11 also what on earth is argmint ? :) 20:48:16 heh 20:48:53 -!- rlb3 [n=robert@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [] 20:48:53 -!- sg [n=gika@83.231.77.136] has quit [] 20:48:58 the foot beach has in the grave is rolling at "argmint" 20:48:58 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 20:49:25 schme, the place where they make arguments :-) 20:49:41 s/make/issue/ 20:50:07 hahaha 20:50:09 Xach: nice one 20:50:10 ok i GETS it 20:50:22 deepfire: I laughed. 20:50:25 (: 20:50:39 yes 20:50:43 nice one to deepfire too :) 20:50:45 rares: there is a book common lisp: gentle introduction to symbolic computation. It might be good for you. 20:50:59 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-237-108.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:51:09 so the argmints aren't even part of the lambda definition 20:51:10 minion, tell rares about gentle 20:51:10 rares: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 20:51:20 sweet 20:51:26 rares, repeart after me: argument. 20:51:30 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:35 s/rt/t/ 20:51:59 argmints: yokelism 20:51:59 yikes 20:52:00 Adlai: you're hurting your case there :) 20:52:06 OH 20:52:08 the salad I'm eating now has lots of heat, too 20:52:22 Adlai: I really had no idea it was some odd way to pronounce/spell arguments. 20:52:29 my digestive tract will have permanent scars after today, I think :P 20:52:45 rahul: Are you going to lispnyc tonight? 20:52:49 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:52:49 rares: But yes. dem argmints don't be no part of dat dere lambda 20:52:58 tasty argmints for a happy breath evaluation 20:52:59 Xach: I dunno 20:53:15 rahul: I think you should go, if only to hassle them to join the CL-USER map. 20:53:26 "We have way more pins than the Clojure map!" 20:53:28 is there a lisp confab for the southwest 20:53:36 rares: The lambda creates you a function object. and you apply it to stuff. It's good fun. 20:53:43 rares: yes. 20:53:49 rares: Albuquerque 20:54:00 hmm cool 20:54:02 Xach, don't you mean albqurq ? 20:54:15 alberke 20:54:58 ok then i have a problem 20:55:06 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-230-208.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:55:17 rares: You know functions in math? f(x)=1+x ? lambda is the same. 20:55:31 evening! 20:55:35 (just better, because we have side effects) 20:55:39 schme: well, that's more like a defun 20:55:39 rares, you could write a lambda that passed another lambda it's arguments 20:55:51 rahul: yeee I can't type a lambda thingie :) 20:56:05 something like (lambda () ((lambda (bar) (baz bar)) quux)) 20:56:06 schme: .\ 20:56:10 :) 20:56:16 good one 20:56:26 i can't close over the arguments unless they're within the lambda - did Adlai just ream my mind 20:56:27 ascii art at its finest. 20:56:45 -!- segoe [n=segoe@62.32.229.196] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:56:54 er i mean read 20:58:06 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-234-193.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:43 ok i'mma lambda outta here until later 20:59:13 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-2-111.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:59:26 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 20:59:30 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:57 rares: good luck (: 21:00:11 i'm working on something to mediate the fact that symbol-glut and short term memory are not my friends 21:00:46 rares: if lambdas and what heck are new to ya, then just let it sink in. :) 21:01:52 they're not new 21:02:07 it's easier because i think like that naturally 21:03:28 the problem is i work best with visual context and notation than i do with symbol names 21:03:50 ahaaa 21:03:59 that's why i like lisp it's low on syntax 21:04:00 maybe you need something to graphically display the lisp objects 21:04:18 like CLIM ;) 21:04:25 more like visual code layout than say a UML system 21:04:28 *schme* attempts to get more people hacking on mcclim. 21:04:51 rares: Yees... lisp's lack of syntax is nice :) 21:05:18 rares: lisp in general is more visually laid out than most languages 21:05:30 rares: especially if you use expression editing commands 21:05:53 like my first attempt at it i achieved horizontal = and, vertical = or and feeding a (nil nil nil) = break; 21:06:26 structured conditioning 21:07:00 i felt my few grey hairs (33) growing black again 21:07:21 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has left #lisp 21:07:42 phew! 208 users on the map. 21:07:44 (: 21:07:48 what is this map? 21:08:24 schme: http://planet.lisp.org/ has a link to it. i invited people to put themselves on a nice cl-user google map that mirko vukovic created. 21:08:48 in the past day or so, more than 100 did that 21:09:23 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-230-208.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:24 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:59 well one more on there 21:14:07 hooray! 21:15:04 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:15:16 Xach: I didn't know my country had 4 CL users 21:15:27 madnificent: probably has more 21:15:45 they hide in caves, trying to protect themselves from the java attacks 21:15:49 all we need now is antarctica, then we have all of the continents. 21:15:54 having the map on planet.lisp slows it down in my browser 21:17:08 schme: it'll melt away 21:17:16 Fare [n=Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:36 madnificent: there's land under it :) 21:17:45 so who is up for the travelling salesman lisp map problem? 21:17:46 schme: we'll bomb it 21:17:58 yeah we need the land so we can grow lisp bananas 21:18:12 bananas with the perfect ( shape 21:18:42 attila: I think your fancy restart-case ruined the default non-interactive behavior of XCVB. 21:19:04 scheme: you want to visit ALL lisp hackers? 21:19:24 Fare, if you can give me a test case i can play with i can look at it 21:19:26 schme: I suppose you should be using QPX to compute the best solution... 21:19:29 -!- r0bby_ is now known as r0bby|android 21:19:36 ergodicsum [n=ergudics@70.158.116.43] has joined #lisp 21:19:47 the travelling franz salesman 21:19:48 attila_lendvai, xcvb slave-builder --build /non/existing 21:19:49 Fare, the restart-case changes should do pretty much the same as the catch/throw 21:20:09 colin__ [n=colin@118-169-36-66.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:13 4 oregon lispers! 21:20:25 -!- r0bby|android is now known as r0bby 21:21:47 attila_lendvai, grrr, can't reproduce. But I had a bug that introduced an error early in arg parsing, and it borked and landed me in the debugger instead of dumping a backtrace and dying as it should. 21:21:49 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:08 -!- colin_ [n=colin@118-169-43-103.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:22:18 I don't want a debugger prompt ever unless explicitly enabled by the user 21:22:34 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-48-71.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:22:58 Fare, will keep it in mind and audit the code later 21:23:36 nevermind, I think I left a (xcvbd::debugging) in slave-builder ... my bad. 21:23:56 whoa, that piece of debugging code has been here for a long time. 21:24:24 Fare, i have red face set up for some stuff like *debug-io*, break, print... :) 21:24:32 in emacs, that is 21:24:34 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:24:58 Hi 21:25:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:54 I briefly thought your face went red when you saw that code. 21:26:08 (mine does, and then I go wear my brown bag) 21:26:43 hrmn. I appear to be missing the requisite edit button on my view of the cl-user map, though I am logged in. 21:27:07 Fade: does it show login at the top-right corner after logging in? 21:27:23 nil. shows my google handle 21:27:59 welcome to the age of powerful computers and plentiful bandwith, giving us the luxury of using flaky, slow and unintuitive programs! 21:28:21 Fade: perhaps you need to save it to your maps first 21:28:29 yeah, I tried that. :) 21:28:35 *cmm* would love an extra-browser google maps client. must be doable, too 21:28:49 google earth should be that client. 21:28:50 google-earth? 21:29:21 -!- r0bby is now known as r0bby|android 21:29:27 does it let you edit maps? never occured to me 21:29:28 Does anyone know how to display rotated text in McCLIM? displaying text in a transformed (rotated) environment doesn't seem to work. 21:29:32 -!- r0bby|android is now known as r0bby 21:29:56 ah, it works in safari, but not with ff on my mac. :P 21:30:06 jfc, I hate these javascript craplets. 21:30:25 Sikander: use a non-X11 backend 21:30:34 these specific crapplets are blessed with Closure! 21:30:40 the gtkairo backend can do that 21:30:56 Fare, tried to boostrap using 0.42, but it failed here: (XCVB::ENSURE-PATHNAME-IS-DIRECTORY T) is called which leads to "T fell through ETYPECASE expression. Wanted one of (PATHNAME STRING)" 21:30:59 'course, safari is too slow to zoom the map. lol 21:31:04 what a piece of crap. 21:31:24 that's 442 21:31:39 Fare, any idea what to pull? 21:31:51 LoL, someone put a pgp sign as a commen 21:31:57 Krystof: But the gtkairo backend doesn't redraw correctly. It looks terrible 21:32:23 0.42 ?? 21:32:33 do you have a backtrace? 21:32:56 Krystof: plus when text becomes mouse sensitive, the sensitive area is not centered around the text and it's also not of the same size 21:33:00 Sikander: so fix it 21:33:17 Krystof: or maybe not use gkairo :) 21:33:26 gtkairo 21:33:33 if you like 21:33:43 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 21:33:57 it's going to be easier to fix the gtkairo backend enough for your needs than implementing rotated text on the X11 backend 21:34:18 you could just give up completely 21:34:27 Krystof: Ok, so this is what I needed to know. the clx backend doesn't have rotated text implemented? 21:34:42 Fare, i suspect it's related to the recent object-directory change 21:35:04 the clx backend will never have rotated text implemented in all likelihood 21:35:13 that's probably a bug in command-line-arguments to not complain about a missing string argument to --object-directory 21:35:25 Krystof: why not? what's the difficulty there? 21:35:49 sorry about that. 21:36:21 Krystof: gtkairo seems to be so thoroughly broken that I don't want to spend time on that if there is a backend where rotated text does work. 21:36:46 the basic protocol doesn't support rotated text drawing. It's conceivable that one could reimplement the whole of the text drawing, or bind to some library (such as, well, cairo) which draws rotated text 21:37:58 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:03 Krystof: Ok, well, I'll see what I'll do. I didn't set out to fix completely broken backends, though... Thanks 21:38:17 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:19 it shouldn't be hard with some extensions to do 90-degree rotations and axis-aligned reflections 21:39:04 or does the basic protocol support such operations on offscreen buffers already? 21:39:44 -!- konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:40:03 Do you mean clx? 21:40:10 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:19 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:30 X11 in general 21:40:45 ah 21:40:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-4-9.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:42:40 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:31 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:07 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:11 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:08 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:28 dalkvist_ [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 21:52:33 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:34 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:54:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:54:08 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:54:18 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:02 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:56:38 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:08 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 22:00:02 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:00:17 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-48-133.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:09 How do I calculate the binary logarithm (log2 n) in lisp? 22:01:26 clhs log 22:01:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_log.htm 22:01:49 also, there is integer-length if you're looking for an approximation 22:02:02 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-181-184.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:02:31 (define-presentation-method presentation-typep (object (type formulated-object)) (eql (find-class 'formulated-class) (class-of (class-of object)))) 22:02:34 sooo evil 22:02:57 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:59 thank you 22:03:11 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-380387.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 22:03:22 gbt [n=Who@91.110.150.198] has joined #lisp 22:03:29 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:03:37 -!- gbt [n=Who@91.110.150.198] has left #lisp 22:04:04 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:41 actually, what I should do is (any (lambda (_) (typep _ 'formulated-class)) (class-precedence-list object))... right? 22:05:19 SOME, rather 22:05:37 rahul, that will allow subclasses of formulated class 22:05:43 (that's probably fine, though) 22:06:19 salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:24 yeha 22:06:43 I want to see if formulated-class is anywhere in the metaclasses of the object 22:07:01 hi worlds 22:09:04 *rahul* ponders forumulate-root vs formulate-source 22:11:06 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has left #lisp 22:11:07 Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:11:09 how can i get '(one two ) and not '(one "two") from `(one ,(format nil "~A" two-name)) , thanks 22:11:37 francogrex [n=user@41.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:11:41 salva: that is a dangerous path you are taking 22:11:57 salva: why do you think you need to concatenate identifiers? 22:12:15 im trying gbb-open 22:12:28 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 22:12:43 and they define space-instances in this way 22:13:05 huh? 22:13:22 oh wiat 22:13:34 why are you formatting a symbol to a string? 22:13:37 Looking at the backlog a bit, there -is- a way to get rotated text on X11. You render your string to a pixmap, grab the pixmap contents as a bitmap back to client side, rotate it there, then push the rotated version back to the server... 22:13:40 when you want a symbol 22:14:06 nyef: yeah... that's a bit of a waste of time 22:14:22 rahul, I'm guessing it's a simplification of his real problem 22:14:27 clhs intern 22:14:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 22:14:28 (make-space-instance '(space sub-space) 22:14:30 salva, ^^ 22:14:51 i'm reading 22:15:05 good luck figuring out which package to use :) 22:15:34 is it 90% rotations, or different rotations? 22:15:49 Fare: in general, you want affine transformations 22:16:05 Fare: but supporting 90 degree rotated text would be nice with X11 22:17:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:58 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 22:18:03 new-logbot [n=new-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:18:16 -!- new-logbot [n=new-logb@setf.clozure.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:32 LiamH: I just pushed a fix for vector sizes to master. The size now takes the stride into account. 22:18:43 LiamH: This is also necessary for the tests to work 22:19:03 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-186-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:40 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177144247.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:20:08 Way too many scrollbacks for me to read. I just hope rahul has a pleasant life wasting his energy. 22:20:29 *Shamwow* would like to know if a struct (i.e. (defstruct foo...)) can have methods written a la (defgeneric...) and (defmethod...) ...? 22:20:40 beach: heh, actually, half of it was muttering about my own coding 22:20:49 Not that there is anything wrong with having a pleasant life. 22:20:57 Shamwow, yes. 22:20:58 Shamwow: _anything_ that is a class can have methods written on it 22:21:12 Shamwow: including built-ins like integer or string 22:21:13 rahul: I didn't realize that defstruct defines a class 22:21:24 Shamwow: it defines a class with metaclass structure-class 22:21:48 as opposed to defclass: standard-class and builtins: built-in-class 22:21:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:21:56 unless :type is specified 22:22:00 rahul: oh! 22:22:10 right, :type will make it a typeless structure 22:22:15 okay, I'll give it shot, then :) 22:22:30 classless 22:22:47 well, weakly typed structure. it will then be of class cons or vector depending on wehther you choose list or vector, respectively 22:22:49 in which case it cannot have method written on it 22:22:52 Hey beach, sorry i missed you earlier. day job and all... 22:23:16 Shamwow: all objects have a class, it's just that those structures do not have a class specifically for them 22:23:32 rahul: I see 22:23:45 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:24:01 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:02 that's really cool. Thanks :) 22:25:22 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Success] 22:27:03 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 22:27:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:22 don't thank me. thank Bobrow, Kiczales, Stefik, et al :) 22:28:49 turing, mccarthy, russell, hart, levin... et al :^) 22:29:30 Newton 22:29:32 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-160-244-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:10 alonzo church, pythagorus... 22:30:10 ITYM"Leibniz" 22:30:47 we can thank back to when people went by only one name :) but thanks for the help on defstruct nonetheless 22:31:19 "pythagorus"? 22:31:25 is that like "toysrus"? 22:31:54 or "toysras" :) 22:33:15 nowadays, people go by three or more... one name per irc instance and level of the house they're in. 22:34:06 soon everyone will just use ipv6 addresses as names 22:34:39 I hope so 22:35:01 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229242065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:35:09 *attila_lendvai* tries to advertise the clarity of using one's real life name online 22:35:16 we'll generate md5 hashes for everyone - need more protection :) 22:35:16 and I hope to get one that spells out something meaningful in base 36 22:35:34 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:46 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:36:41 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 22:36:59 how would you load a file in the same directory as some source file? 22:37:13 Adlai: with asdf 22:37:17 :) 22:37:25 rahul, what if it's not a lisp source file? 22:37:29 ie, I misspoke 22:37:35 OPEN rather than LOAD 22:37:35 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:37:37 what do you mean by "load" then? 22:37:57 Adlai: well, there's *load-truename* 22:38:01 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 22:38:11 right, but asdf-binary-locations defeats that 22:38:12 you can merge-pathnames with that, but be sure to do that at load-time 22:38:40 Adlai: then access the system object programmatically 22:38:41 so, there's *compile-file-pathname* 22:39:01 and -truename too 22:39:01 and put the file to be loaded as a static file in the system 22:39:19 stassats`, oh, thank you. I didn't know about that one. 22:39:44 (load-time-value (or #.*compile-file-truename* *load-truename*)) 22:40:57 (merge-pathnames ... (component-pathname (find-system ...))) should probably work well 22:41:42 cyberhuman [n=xvro@inet20909nc-3s.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:41:59 and if it's in the system, my package creator will automatically distribute the file with your source 22:42:00 (asdf:system-definition-pathname (asdf:find-system name)) 22:42:26 system-definition is no longer a component? 22:42:52 it returns different values 22:44:00 if you need a directory, then component-pathname is better 22:44:08 uh, is there any limitation on the type of elements you can write with write-sequence? 22:44:38 *Fare* kills the yaaaar commits by making a pre-release-test that works on a copy of current development tree rather than a checkout from git/darcs 22:44:55 yaaaar = yet another attempt at automatic release 22:45:10 hehe, i wondered what that is... :) 22:45:47 clhs defclass 22:45:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm 22:45:48 clhs write-sequence 22:45:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_seq.htm 22:46:00 I previously had to commit to see if the build would pass the release test. 22:46:11 now I can run the test on a copy of the live tree. 22:46:16 stupid, but oh well. 22:46:28 Fare: the GC won't tough lisp-objs allocated in foreign memory 22:46:32 ahh I missed the "might signal an error" 22:46:45 Adlai: you mean that the elements of the sequence have to be of the same type as the elements of the stream? 22:47:02 Fare, if the make of xcvb could be run without installing it and from a local build, then you could set up a test that bootstraps xcvb twice to see if it's still operational 22:47:07 *Fare* squashes one more regression whereas a (non-enforcing) build would succeed only if a previous enforcing build had been run before, which had always been the case in my tests so far :-/ 22:47:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:47:32 attila_lendvai, well, I install to a temporary directory for the same effect. 22:47:46 that's perfectly fine 22:47:52 and yes, a self-build is included. But I should clean the build directory more often. 22:48:35 incredible how easy a thinko can break things unexpectedly when you don't regression-test :-/ 22:48:41 I was using :initargs as opposed to the :initarg slot-option. This caused obvious problems. The defclass form compiled fine, though, so I'm assuming that slot-options allow-other-keys? 22:48:46 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:55 new-logbot [n=new-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:10 -!- francogrex [n=user@41.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:19 tmh: might depend on your CLOS implementation 22:51:40 Fare: I couldn't find anything explicit in hyperspec, but I'm assuming if it does, it's to allow implementations to handle extended slot-options. 22:51:57 sg [n=sg@83.231.102.63] has joined #lisp 22:52:09 hi 22:53:36 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:03 is there an easy way of getting the length of a nested list? 22:54:15 (list-length '('(a b c) '(a b c) '(a b c))) return 9 instead of 3 22:54:30 chris2 [n=zhora@dslb-094-216-061-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:52 Retardedpope: recursion into each list... with a listp check to dig deeper ? 22:54:53 (length (nth N LIST)) 22:55:00 1 > (length '('(a b c) '(a b c) '(a b c))) 22:55:00 3 22:55:45 mmm wait, what length are you trying to get? 22:55:53 9 22:56:10 Retardedpope: Oh, missed that. 22:56:40 Retardedpope: There are many approaches to doing that. 22:57:14 tmh: but no built in nested-list-length function? 22:57:50 what exactly would it recurse into? 22:57:59 should it recurse into vectors, too? 22:58:06 count atoms? 22:58:18 stassats`: and what is an atom? 22:58:25 clhs atom 22:58:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_atom.htm 22:58:48 ok, so I'll have to write it myself... 22:59:15 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:59:38 atom n. any object that is not a cons. ``A vector is an atom.'' 22:59:51 exactly 22:59:56 a vector has a length 23:00:14 rahul: it wouldn't count that then... 23:00:19 so the recursive length of a vector would be LESS than the simple length 23:00:23 I don't need it to either 23:00:36 what would the result be for ()? 23:00:39 Retardedpope: CL is not about what you need to solve your immediate problem 23:00:53 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-102.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:01:07 TR2N [i=email@89.180.172.244] has joined #lisp 23:01:11 bah, goddamn ISP disconnects at midnight 23:01:13 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:15 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-235.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:01:16 you write the code you need for your immediate problem... and sometimes you need to realize that your data structure is wrong 23:01:20 rahul: list-length, originally mentioned by Retardedpope, doesn't work on vectors either 23:01:25 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 23:01:26 rahul: well, you could have two functions... one that counts atoms and one that count the length of arrays to... 23:01:45 Retardedpope: that would be... well... retarded 23:01:54 since there is already LENGTH 23:02:10 Retardedpope: and NIL is an atom 23:02:29 Retardedpope: so (count-atoms '(1 2)) => 3 23:02:45 *Fare* releases XCVB .449 23:03:06 rahul: I was thinking more like nested-length 23:03:07 *rahul* fires an XCVB .449 at Fare 23:03:08 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:10 woo .449 23:03:24 is that a magic number? 23:03:30 Retardedpope: any time CL tries to do something with nesting, it's a political nightmare 23:03:43 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:03 I have a nice with-nesting macro as suggested by mbaringer 23:04:04 Fare: its the exact caliber of bullet that bounces off your skin, apparently 23:04:27 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:46 rahul: ok, just wondered if there was something already that I could use.... but there isn't... it's no problem I can write it myself.... 23:04:54 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:16 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 23:05:19 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-171.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:05:19 Retardedpope: you might be able to use subst-if, with a predicate that does incf 23:05:23 What kind of nesting do you want? 23:05:45 they come in many many flavors 23:06:00 (let ((count 0)) (subst-if nil (lambda (x) (incf count)) tree))) 23:06:11 although you might have to guard against counting nil 23:06:14 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:15 Fare: '('(a b c) '(a b c) '(a b c)) 23:06:24 unless you want to count nil when its in a non-cdr position 23:06:29 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:45 Retardedpope: and do you know that it will be not 9, but 12? 23:06:46 Retardedpope: um, the nested length of that list is 12 23:06:52 Retardedpope, are you sure you want the internal (quote ...)s? 23:07:22 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 23:07:36 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:07:40 Fare: I'm not really sure of anything.... 23:07:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:46 Retardedpope: why don't you just use a simpler data structure? 23:07:51 heh 23:07:59 Retardedpope, I suggest HtDP to clarify your mind. 23:08:06 Retardedpope: if you don't know what the goal of your function is, we can't give you an implementation... 23:08:16 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:08:24 rahul, what's the goal of life? 23:08:35 i want a function that does everything 23:08:40 rahul: I want to count the leaves... 23:08:47 all of them 23:09:06 To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women. 23:09:31 Fare: to die 23:09:37 stassats`, go look at the U combinator on John Tromp's page... 23:09:37 stassats`: wouldn't that be kind of a slow function? 23:09:44 mmmm 23:09:48 Retardedpope: what is a leaf, exactly? 23:09:49 Fare, shouldn't this signal an error? --export-model is not optional and "no" is not processed as its argument... (process-command-line-options '(("export-model" :type boolean :optional nil)) '("--export-model" "no")) 23:09:51 here is a stupid way to do the nested list length thing 23:10:04 stupid and inefficient though 23:10:06 Retardedpope: you could flatten the list first, then find the length 23:10:06 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1665581 23:10:09 Retardedpope: a cons cell does not indicate what your conceptual data structure is. it's ususually different from a tree 23:10:13 attila_lendvai, it *should* 23:10:25 apparently, there are bugs in command-line-arguments. 23:10:33 Fixing them is left as... ARG 23:10:35 serichsen: is there a function for that? 23:10:36 Retardedpope: the number of leaves in (1 2) is 3 23:10:39 because it flattens the list first 23:10:41 did *I* write that crap? 23:10:46 seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-126-240.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:47 Retardedpope http://pastebin.ca/raw/1665581 23:10:48 Fare, push it as a failing test, it's not crucial for me 23:10:54 rahul: not in my oppinion : 23:11:00 the fix is left as an ARG to the implementation 23:11:02 -!- new-logbot [n=new-logb@setf.clozure.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:04 Retardedpope: flatten is an often-used exercise for new lispers 23:11:06 Retardedpope: CL disagrees 23:11:22 Retardedpope: both sides of a cons cell are part of the tree 23:11:44 rahul: I often disagree with CL :P 23:11:48 sg: defun inside defun is a bad idea 23:12:07 stassats`: agree 23:12:23 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@inet20909nc-3s.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:12:25 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:12:32 i'm used to do it on a lisp dialect that supports arbitrary internal definitions, sorry 23:12:34 that's no scheme, use labels instead 23:12:37 Retardedpope: you disagree with CL's definition of its own data structure 23:12:53 anyway as flatten is generally useful it should be two distinct procedures 23:12:54 Fare, is it just me, or command line arguments should include access to posix environment? 23:12:54 rahul, I won't have an argument with you 23:12:58 echo sg | sed -e s/s/p/ 23:13:02 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 23:13:08 Fare: yes you will 23:13:16 rahul, ouch 23:13:26 LiamH: Does (test-real-radix2 'double-float 5) work for you? 23:13:28 *command-line-arguments 23:13:29 sg: thank you for the nested length function :) 23:13:33 \o/ 23:13:43 Fare, the functionalities really seem to go hand-by-hand 23:13:53 deepfire, it does, kindof. 23:14:02 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:14:10 deepfire, but I use the facility from cl-launch. 23:14:38 problem is, how you extract arguments is not independent from how you do or don't dump an image, on each implementation. 23:14:44 *rahul* ponders object serialization 23:14:45 rahul: Yeah, it's a free country right. I have the right to do that. Even if it's retarded. :P 23:15:01 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 23:15:07 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-124.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:08 with cl-launch, this is taken care of for me. An ASDF library alone CANNOT do that. 23:15:10 Sikander: yes, looks good. 23:15:11 Fare, ouch 23:15:18 Retardedpope: what makes it retarded is that you're not understanding what a cons cell IS 23:15:21 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:15:22 Sounds like a world of hurt. 23:15:29 -!- liron [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:37 rahul: I do 23:15:41 it's an object that CARes? 23:15:47 LiamH: For me too, but (test-real-radix2 'double-float 6) fails miserably 23:15:48 (and CDRes, too) 23:15:50 rahul: it's two values 23:15:59 and an identity 23:16:01 is NaN possible with lisp floats, and if so how do i check for? 23:16:02 LiamH: And everything >5 it seems 23:16:14 Sikander: no, looks good 23:16:17 ?! 23:16:21 Weird. 23:16:32 rahul: in a list the first value is the value... the second is the pointer to the next cons cell.... I think.... 23:16:37 LiamH: Are you sure? All elements? 23:16:38 Guthur, probably is possible. There might be a trivial-nan library somewhere. 23:16:50 They're identical? 23:17:10 LiamH pasted "(test-real-radix2 'double-float 6)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90141 23:17:10 fare cheers i'll have a look 23:17:40 (defun tree-length (tree) (reduce #'+ tree :key (lambda (e) (if (atom e) 1 (tree-length e))))) 23:18:05 hehe i had the lib all along, ieee-floats 23:18:08 Sikander: the only one that looks off to me is the numerical fuzz on the imaginary part of the middle one 23:18:25 LiamH: I get something completely different. Are you using the latest pull? 23:18:32 Retardedpope: that's in a list, not a tree 23:18:35 Sikander: yes 23:18:46 Retardedpope: and not a cons cell either 23:18:54 Retardedpope: a list is but one use of a cons cell 23:18:55 LiamH: I just pushed stuff regarding strides. It shouldn't be the problem, but nevertheless... 23:19:06 LiamH: I'll remove the old fasls and try again... :( 23:19:10 Sikander: oh then no, I'm using a25477a545 23:19:18 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:19:27 Sikander: is that not the latest? 23:19:49 rahul: I can build a tree with nested lists... right? 23:20:00 Retardedpope: right, but that's not a lisp tree 23:20:06 it's a list tree :P 23:20:13 hehe 23:20:32 rahul: Are you saying that I want a lisp tree? 23:20:33 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 23:20:36 Joreji_ [n=thomas@40-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:21:19 clhs tree 23:21:20 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for tree. 23:21:24 Sikander: OK, I have your changes, and yes, I get crap. 23:21:39 rahul: there is no tree :P 23:21:44 LiamH: Dammit, I wrecked it?! Weird 23:21:45 Retardedpope: I'm saying that a cons cell is a very flexible data structure 23:21:52 Retardedpope: it's not an explicit type 23:22:03 LiamH: I only fiddled with stride 23:22:04 Retardedpope: it's a _way_ of using a cons cell, as is a list 23:22:14 LiamH: Ok, I'll see what happened 23:22:20 Interesting, how does one get a process structure with :WAIT T. 23:22:21 Retardedpope: it just happens to be that list is partially defined as a class as well 23:22:26 LiamH annotated #90141 "At 3c6a2d2ea3" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90141#1 23:22:37 In the context of SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM, that is. 23:22:54 *deepfire* tries to M-. that question 23:23:08 Retardedpope: however, ANY cons cell will show up as a list in lisp, unless you actually try to use it as one, in which case you may get an error or an infinite loop 23:23:31 Sikander: It looks like the first number is right, but the rest are wrong. 23:24:02 rahul: I guess I better be careful then 23:24:06 LiamH: Yeah, I got the same crap. I don't understand why, but I'll fix it. 23:24:08 deepfire: just wait? 23:24:11 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.194] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:24:22 Aha, sb-impl:*active-processes* 23:25:01 -!- chris2 [n=zhora@dslb-094-216-061-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:25:14 stassats`, I thought it's implicit in my question that I don't to wait. Sorry for not making that clear. 23:25:47 Retardedpope: or choose a more explicit data structure when it makes sense to 23:25:48 what's the reason to use :wait t then? 23:26:12 stassats`, imagine C-c and a desire to provide a "kill the sucker" restart. 23:27:54 *active-processes* is not exported 23:28:08 As it stands, I guess the only way is to patch sbcl and provide that restart, as there appears to be no reliable way to map dynamic environment to the process structure. 23:28:18 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:32 stassats`, thanks for correction. 23:28:44 sgg [n=sg@62.32.168.163] has joined #lisp 23:28:57 i meant not that you forgot :, but that's using it isn't a good idea 23:28:59 -!- sgg is now known as segoe 23:29:48 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:50 stassats`, using it appears to be impossible for the said restart needs, for the reason I just provided. 23:30:00 Them Crooked Vultures is good coding music 23:30:05 Joreji__ [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:30:07 nice and groovy 23:31:04 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:31:24 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:32:00 good night 23:32:41 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066411.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["fite quitting"] 23:33:09 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:33:31 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [No route to host] 23:35:54 stassats`, sorry for being dense. 23:36:10 sellout pasted "maybe I'm a bit paranoid" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90142 23:36:14 I guess I had too much coffee this late in night. 23:37:29 Whereas I should've been in bed at home. 23:37:46 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-48-133.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:33 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:34 (18.06.52) Fare: Retardedpope, are you sure you want the internal (quote ...)s? => No I didn't want them... 23:42:04 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@40-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:13 Don't really understand when to use quotes... I just throw them in and hope for the best... 23:42:23 clhs ' 23:42:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dc.htm 23:43:58 *Fare* goes back to coding that standalone backend, now that the test suite issue is (hopefully) resolved. 23:44:48 Retardedpope: use them when you want to create a literal list object 23:44:54 *Fare* is reminded of gigamonkey's interview with Doug Crockford, who insists on stopping the coding every 7th cycle to tidy your code and clean it up 23:44:54 minion: gentle 23:44:54 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 23:45:07 Retardedpope: read that book, possibly ^ 23:45:40 Retardedpope: (eval 'foo) => foo 23:45:56 you use a quote where you want something to be "protected" from evaluation, basically 23:45:59 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:46:30 rahul: good to know 23:47:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:47:07 Retardedpope: how are you learning lisp, again? 23:47:13 (other than trial and error) 23:47:45 -!- thermal_ [n=thermal@c-24-18-249-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:49:07 rahul: I had a lecture about some of the basics of lisp... and from there I've been doing trial and error... 23:49:08 slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@research-remote.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:49:29 -!- sg [n=sg@83.231.102.63] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:49:42 Retardedpope: it never occurred to you to read more? 23:49:56 especially given the number of free books available online 23:50:15 thermal_ [n=thermal@c-24-18-249-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:15 -!- acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has quit ["leaving"] 23:50:22 rahul: I have a lot of other things I need to read... 23:50:28 and weren't you guided to some of them before, too? you still haven't gotten to them? 23:50:42 Retardedpope: yeah, like error messages from your lisp 23:50:46 -!- lusory_ [n=bart@bb121-7-7-8.singnet.com.sg] has quit ["leaving"] 23:50:54 rahul: I read a lot of those :P 23:51:05 in the time it took you to make all that incorrect code, you could have finished 3 chapters of a book 23:51:29 rahul: but then I wouldn't have any code.... 23:51:37 Retardedpope: you still don't have any code 23:52:02 unless your goal is to have the lisp spit out errors... 23:52:02 I do.... It just doesn't do anything useful yet... 23:52:14 Retardedpope: and it never will. 23:52:18 *rahul* gives up 23:52:30 rahul: It will by Friday... 23:52:46 rahul: deadline Friday at midnight... 23:52:57 yeah, by friday you'll have learned 1 day's worth of lisp 23:53:40 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:54:07 rahul: I have 86 lines and it's all working AFAIK 23:54:15 I mean, seriously, people learn more lisp than you know now in their first 4 hours 23:54:17 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:25 but that's because they actually learn instead of trying to guess 23:54:53 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-96-97.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:54:56 rahul: I wrote a 3D engine in python by guessing... 23:55:05 rahul: it has worked before 23:55:14 what would i have to do to not need funcall in (setf foo (lambda (x) (1+ x))) (funcall foo 5) 23:55:45 rares: you'd have to switch to scheme 23:55:52 -!- shendaras [n=user@ip68-97-248-188.ok.ok.cox.net] has left #lisp 23:55:54 rares: or write another function that calls funcall 23:55:59 rares: or use apply... 23:56:05 (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda ..)) 23:56:09 -!- Fare [n=Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:56:38 stassats`: well, I don't think that will work if compiled in a file 23:57:12 -!- segoe [n=sg@62.32.168.163] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:37 rather, it is allowed to not work 23:58:13 (eval-when (...) (declaim (ftype function foo))) ? 23:59:25 stassats`: not sure... this is a really knotty part of the spec 23:59:54 stassats`: declaim does the eval-when itself, too