00:02:45 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:13 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit ["brb"] 00:04:40 I wonder if the lisp world contains a simple buffering stream implementation. 00:05:14 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:43 Basically I want something which acts as an input and an output stream at the same time, stashing everything that was written into it until it is read. 00:06:00 So... a pipe? 00:06:09 nyef, basically, yes. 00:06:24 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 00:07:10 I don't know if such a thing exists, but I imagine that it wouldn't be obnoxiously hard to create given trivial-gray-streams. 00:07:16 deepfire: I think I had seen lists reimplemented as memory streams, allowing lazy streams 00:08:00 nyef, I want to watch output of run-program in real-time, and I thought this was the most logical way to have it. 00:08:50 Ah. Can't help you there, I'm afraid. 00:09:26 *deepfire* wants to replicate some of the buildbot functionality in CL 00:10:22 swathant` [n=user@117.204.82.120] has joined #lisp 00:10:28 Next problem, even if I assume this to be solved, is to convince hunchentoot to live-feed the http clients, instead of packing it as one chunk. 00:10:52 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:42 Maybe pipes are the real answer, actually. 00:12:14 *deepfire* looks up trivial-pipes 00:14:29 sb-posix:pipe is #-win32, but win32 does have unix-like pipes 00:14:40 _pipe() it was IIRC. 00:15:08 Be careful with Win32 and its exceedingly spotty support for posixoid abstractions. 00:15:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:16:26 *deepfire* actually submitted a patch adding pipe support for ECL/win32, and never was bitten by using it in production (although my conditions probably don't torture it much) 00:16:49 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:49 deepfire: you can get pipes if you link with psx.dll, but if you want pipes on pure win32 I recommend using native win32 named pipes 00:21:44 p_l, I don't think you need psx.dll for _pipe() 00:22:10 deepfire: possible, but I would second nyef's warning 00:22:34 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:39 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:25:58 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:30 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:37 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 00:27:23 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@70.159.109.248] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:27:37 *lnostdal* *grumble* .. 00:27:52 maybe i should drop the old Gnome and go for a Lisp window-manager .. gnome-panel is not very "multiple screen"-friendly :P 00:27:57 -!- phf [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:28:30 I don't know about stumpwm, but I'm pretty satisfied with XMonad, even if it takes some time to configure 00:28:32 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:38 a Lisp window-manager? 00:29:00 I'm using xmonad too, nice thing 00:29:05 minion: tell amaron about stumpwm 00:29:06 amaron: please look at stumpwm: Stumpwm is a tiling, keyboard driven X11 window manager application written entirely in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/stumpwm 00:29:08 yeah, i was thinking stumpwm 00:29:54 *p_l* just today finally managed to correct his keybindings for multiple screens. For over two days I couldn't understand the type errors... 00:30:01 great, nice thing to compare with xmonad, I like to compare haskell and lisp 00:32:05 I will need something like xmobar too, unless it comes with stumpwm 00:32:10 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715083437]"] 00:32:28 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:32:45 amaron: What's xmobar? 00:33:22 sellout: info bar in xmonad, highly customizable 00:33:39 sellout: stumpwm has integrated emacs-like modeline iirc 00:33:40 s/in/with/ 00:33:45 s/in/for/ 00:34:19 *sellout* uses stumpwm when he's on Linux. 00:34:40 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B254.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:36:40 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 00:37:08 p_l: you tried both of them? 00:38:17 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:56 fihi09`` [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:52 redblue [i=star@ppp191.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:40:12 -!- starek [n=digg@unaffiliated/romani] has quit [] 00:41:06 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 00:42:23 only xmonad, starting up stumpwm once doesn't really count 00:43:52 i like xmonad and I use it for some time, but using lisp in wm makes me interested in stumpwm 00:45:21 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has left #lisp 00:46:00 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:47:20 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:51:34 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:51:35 -!- fihi09` [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:23 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 00:54:20 xle [i=cef01ac6@gateway/web/freenode/x-pbfgogsmxbkiycvk] has joined #lisp 00:54:48 Is emulating a lisp machine on 32 bit architecture possible? Every emulator I find runs on 64 bit... 00:55:19 You could emulate a 64 bit machine on a 32 bit machine. :-( 00:55:27 caoliver: Oh my. 00:55:40 caoliver: That doesn't sound like fun. 00:55:51 -!- rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:56:01 Not to me either, but that's the existence proof. 00:56:34 rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:56:40 If I could, I would totally buy a lisp machine. I'm not sure what I'd do with it, but I would. \: 00:57:33 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:57:40 I'd much rather emulate a Lisp machine on a modern processor. Would be much much faster. 00:57:52 My understanding is that the SMBX assets are in probate, and there may just maybe someone trying to get Genera under a non-profit. 00:58:02 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-74.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:58:05 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 00:58:25 Well, there's Brad Parker's hack, but that's not precisely legal. 00:58:33 I'd like very much to see that change. 00:58:37 Wait, does run-program :wait nil kill the lisp once the executable finishes? 00:58:49 The docstring sure sounds dangerous.. 00:59:29 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:43 Is run-program something evil and implementation dependent? 00:59:55 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00:15 It's not in the hyperspec. 01:00:57 caoliver, sb-ext:run-program. You see... this channel is almost #sbcl :-) 01:01:12 That reminds me, does the Symbolics company do business with anyone for anything, or is Genera just kind of sitting there? 01:01:38 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:15 Like I know that the company still kind exists, but does it do anything? 01:03:03 I don't know who's there aside from Schmidt and Reti. I had an xl1201 a long time ago, but it didn't live long. 01:03:26 ":WAIT - If non-NIL (default), wait until the created process finishes. If nil, continue running Lisp until the program finishes." 01:03:43 I'd like to have an emu to hack on. And I'd like kids to be able to beat on Genera much as they can beat on Smalltalk under the guise of Squeak. 01:04:37 deepfire: but I have CCL and XCL here too. 01:05:10 Ok, it doesn't quit, but the docstring sounds scary. 01:05:17 caoliver: I agree. (: 01:05:44 what scary about it? 01:06:14 stassats`, you don't see the implication of what I quoted? 01:07:07 stassats`, it doesn't say "kill Lisp once the program finishes", but kind of suggests it. 01:07:55 I guess, only a native speaker would be able to clarify it. 01:08:15 Whether "do X until Y" means "stop doing X once Y" 01:09:31 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp191.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:09:49 -!- xle [i=cef01ac6@gateway/web/freenode/x-pbfgogsmxbkiycvk] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 01:09:52 <_3b> seems like a valid interpretation to me 01:10:19 ASau``` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 01:10:29 xle: what hardware are you running? Most reasonably recent boxes support 64 bits. 01:11:23 <_3b> doesn't virtualbox emulate 64bit on 32 now? 01:12:38 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:12:39 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-40-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:14 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 01:16:08 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:16:21 deepfire: it would be better to say "continue running Lisp while the program runs" 01:16:57 the actual docstring is a bit unclear 01:17:14 (as you point out; I'm responding as a native speaker) 01:17:35 or, as a native lisper, you could try it out 01:17:41 piso, I think it wouldn't be good to imply any relationship between status of Lisp and executable. 01:18:05 pkhuong, I think I made it pretty clear that I did. 01:18:44 well, :WAIT non-NIL suggests that Lisp waits for the executable to finish, then resumes its own executiion 01:19:26 I think something along the lines of "return into Lisp" would be better. 01:20:24 Screw it, I have no idea. 01:20:40 *piso* realizes this is why he never documents anything 01:21:28 "you have the source, damn it!" 01:22:41 sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-40-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:47 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:22:52 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:04 -!- ASau`` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:34:29 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 01:36:47 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:39:42 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-29-157.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 01:39:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:40:19 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-38-200.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:41:36 The hyperspec says that make-symbol makes no attempt to uppercase its argument and only the lisp reader adjusts case. Since readtable-case can be used to control the case handling of the lisp reader does that mean it is possible to preserve the case of the argument to make-symbol in the returned symbol? 01:41:46 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:41:49 returned symbol-name 01:42:15 Yes. 01:42:25 (string= name (symbol-name (make-symbol name))) 01:43:17 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@119.224.32.224] has joined #lisp 01:43:23 Symbols ARE case sensitive. 01:43:57 pjb: Thanks. I was just fooled by what was being returned at the repl. 01:44:30 quidnunc: you may try (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :PRESERVE) 01:44:45 you will just have to type all the standard symbols in upcase, since they are upcase. 01:45:28 You can revert with (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :UPCASE) 01:45:35 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:46:08 Also, you can use \ to escape a single character in a symbol, or |...| to escape a range of character in a symbol. 01:46:21 Why does is the case not preserved here? (list (make-symbol "a")) => (#:A) 01:46:41 Ah sorry, I botched the readtable-cacse 01:47:05 No, but you may have modified *print-case* 01:47:32 Since you've done no reading, the readtable-case cannot have any effect. 01:51:59 starek [n=mild@unaffiliated/romani] has joined #lisp 01:53:32 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:04 elliotstern [n=pipoca@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:57:34 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:57:55 is there a better way to append .html to files other than (rename-file file (merge-pathnames (concatenate 'string (file-namestring file) ".html") (directory-namestring file))) 01:58:07 s/files/file names/ 01:58:41 (rename-file file (format nil "~a.html" (file-namstring file))) 01:59:03 I've been working on an AI for a board game that I play in my free time (code is here: http://code.google.com/p/monte-go/source/browse/trunk/src/go.lisp). It's using a naive monte-carlo algorithm, which basically means that it plays through a lot of random games and scores them to come up with it's moves. 01:59:31 My problem right now is that a given random play through is several orders of magnitude to slow 01:59:45 minion: thwap to elliotstern 01:59:45 elliotstern: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 02:00:31 elliotstern: well. Montecarlo has a number of tradeoffs. 02:00:43 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:57 but first, how's your go (roughly) on your own? 02:01:17 you mean, how strong of a player am I? 02:01:35 Yes... it can help when writing special cases and optimizations, heh. 02:01:42 I'm about 8 kyu, if that means anything to you 02:02:15 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:15 It does; you're already better so I'll politely be quiet :D 02:02:31 How strong are you? 02:03:10 was about 12ish (KGS) last I played, I think. It's been a long time. 02:03:24 Ok 02:03:33 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 02:03:36 several things to look at 02:03:49 accumulation of results, noticing trending in accumulation 02:04:11 making individual games faster, pruning obviously-stupid games by removing very bad local cases 02:04:22 and parallelization across clusters. 02:05:01 <_3b> have you profiled it? 02:05:38 heh, that would be a sort of essential first step, yes 02:05:49 -!- G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.97.127] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:06:20 So I'm just learning lisp (and using this project as an excuse to help teach myself lisp); a single playthough takes on the order of 12 seconds or so for around 6 or 7 hundred moves 02:06:30 <_3b> also, make sure you are compiling it, preferable with (optimize speed) declaration 02:06:38 Ok 02:07:57 I'm representing the board using lists of stones - black, empty and white (plus a little book keeping to detect ko using a simple ko rule) 02:08:41 <_3b> use (push a b) instead of (setf b (cons a b)) 02:08:47 bah, before the platitude: set-reduce is intrinsically disastrous, *board-size* should be a constant, represent the board as a specialised numeric vector, don't use integer complexes (because they're intrinsically hard to compile), use some instead of mapcan as a predicate, don't use methods for simple utility. 02:09:04 elliotstern: 12 seconds is the time it takes my I/O bound app to stem and lematize 50MB worth of arabic text. something is wrong there. 02:09:06 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:25 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:10:34 manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d0377bf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:34 lispbuilder! 02:10:36 http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/UsingLispbuilderSDL 02:11:52 By numeric vector, you mean a 19 by 19 array? 02:12:11 or rather, a boardsize by board-size array? 02:12:19 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 02:13:14 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:16 join #ucw 02:13:19 at first, a 19x19 matrix, and later, maybe, a flat vector that you'll index into yourself. 02:13:27 oops 02:13:59 And by set-reduce being intrinsically disastrous, you mean that the idea of the function is bad, or that my implementation of it is terrible? 02:14:27 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:14:33 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:14:39 with sets-as-lists, the very idea is lossy. 02:15:54 (or, rather, lists as sets) 02:16:25 What precisely do you mean by that? 02:17:00 ... Wha? Someone can only find LispM emulators that run on 64-bit hosts? Fully 3/4 of the LispM emulators of which I am aware run on 32-bit hosts. 02:17:43 i mean that using lists to represent sets is an atrocious idea; even more so when you use EQUAL there. In fact, the very fact that you'd need such a function is suspect. 02:17:56 elliotstern: a flat 361 (or 81) cell vector lets you use simple fixnums to identify points. 02:18:57 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:18:59 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@krlh-4d0352d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:22 or a bitvector to identify sets or points... 02:20:28 oh, right - x*boardsize +y, or vice versa 02:20:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:20:34 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:20:36 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 02:20:48 nyef: do you know of any project from which I could easily extract a C (as string) <-> sexp library? I'm considering CIL (and a small ocaml wrapper). 02:21:43 Oh yeah - do you guy's know of a profiler I can use with CLISP? 02:22:33 elliotstern: sure, first, use CCL or SBCL. 02:23:16 Any reason for SBCL over CLISP, out of curiosity? 02:23:17 -!- Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:23:20 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:23:41 pkhuong: there's a C parser by the author of cl-yacc and http://files.b9.com/uffi/cparse-kmr.tgz 02:24:27 elliotstern: compiles to native code, very good slime integration 02:24:56 elliotstern: produces fast native code 02:24:59 I found CLISP to be badly unusable on windows, but that might not be an issue for you. 02:25:02 has a profiler. 02:25:09 two, in fact. 02:25:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 02:25:17 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-179.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:25:59 minion: memo for Sikander: I got test-real-radix2 producing plausible, even good, output. No tests yet, but I merged into master and deleted the fast-fourier-transform branch, since it should be usable now without the tests included. 02:26:00 Remembered. I'll tell Sikander when he/she/it next speaks. 02:26:08 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:26:09 I'm using OS X and Linux (and don't even have a windows partition at the moment) so... no 02:26:47 elliotstern: ccl 02:26:48 Also, I've never gotten used to emacs, so I've just been using the command line and vim- 02:28:00 Allegro CL 8.1 Free Express Edition for beginner 02:28:44 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-61-40-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:11 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:30:33 elliotstern: i've heard more than one person say they used emacs just for slime and lisp 02:30:41 even if they normally used vim 02:31:29 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:32:27 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:32:31 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:33:42 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-72-66-64-165.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:18 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 02:34:51 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:35:38 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:35:45 Thanks for the help and pointers. Now to go and start to refactor this thing to be less atrocious. 02:36:28 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-40-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:36:29 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 02:36:48 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 02:37:24 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:38:06 -!- elliotstern [n=pipoca@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 02:47:18 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-151-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:40 sellout: herep 02:47:41 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:48:02 gigamonkey: t 02:48:53 I see you got me memo. ;-) 02:48:57 my. 02:49:16 You're not giving up are you? 02:49:58 No, I need to catch up, but I have a paying deadline tomorrow, and this weekend I was visiting my two-week-old nephew, so it took a back seat. 02:50:34 I'll be boosting the word count come tomorrow. 02:50:44 Ah. Wait, was that the giant baby two-week-old nephew? 02:50:55 Excellent. 02:50:57 Although it is a bit disheartening to fall behind after doing so well for a few days. 02:51:04 Yes, the giant baby :) 02:51:35 Well, you spurred me on with your initial burst. 02:52:50 So thanks. 02:52:59 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:54:02 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:54:19 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:25 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:32 gigamonkey: Great! You're doing the same for me now ... I was worried that none of my buddies would really dive in. 02:55:55 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:57:13 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442850.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 02:59:02 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rphzfeuljntkcjov] has joined #lisp 03:00:39 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rphzfeuljntkcjov] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:00:54 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gfxuxatffcfngucw] has joined #lisp 03:02:45 I wonder what the etiquette is on signing up buddies--it doesn't seem that anyone else I know is a Wrimo; I'm tempted to start adding random people with about the same number of words done as me as buddies. 03:02:45 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:02:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:41 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:51 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 03:08:10 gigamonkey: Yeah, seems like you can ... doesn't seem like there's any restriction, or that you're even informed if someone adds you as a buddy. 03:20:32 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:22:30 -!- swathant` [n=user@117.204.82.120] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:32 hello 03:26:09 -!- illumina` [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["something wrong"] 03:26:43 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:26 -!- Dawgmatix__ [n=dman@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:28:08 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:48 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:34:31 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:35:08 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["bed"] 03:35:15 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-4-247.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:37:42 redblue [i=star@ppp114.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:41:54 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:42 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:56:05 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:31 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.84.191] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:43 (loop for line as (read-line stream) ..) doesn't seem to work? 04:06:03 line = 04:06:31 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:13 (let ((ss (make-string-input-stream (fmtn "hello~%world~%!~%")))) (loop :for line = (read-line ss nil) :while line :do (dbg-prin1 line))) 04:07:30 okwell, not dbg-prin1 .. but something like that .. heh :) 04:08:11 yep 04:08:33 the other form made me do (sb-thread:destroy-thread (utils:find-thread "worker")) ;-) 04:09:11 would be nice if worker was bound to sb-thread::*worker* or similar (inside slime?) 04:11:08 <_3b> why not C-c C-c or C-c C-b ? 04:11:11 *shrug* .. or you could have utils:find-thread take an &optional arg. bound to "worker" by default 04:12:45 ..or something.. 04:15:19 oh, wait .. ignore me .. i was thinking this was some custom thread you had spawned .. heh 04:19:10 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:25:32 baddog [n=baddog@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 04:30:44 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 04:32:16 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:37:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-40-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:15 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-72-66-64-165.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:50:46 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-242-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:24 dek5 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has joined #lisp 04:53:51 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@119.224.32.224] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:00:03 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:01:11 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:06:52 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-209-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:20 Krystof_ [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:10:39 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:54 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 05:15:29 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:18:53 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-4-247.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:19:29 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 05:24:01 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:25:34 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:26:28 didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 05:27:43 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:10 Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-41-160.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:28:28 Ok, /me is >< close from automated lispworld-wide module update/test cycle. 05:29:47 With "test" defined as "load". 05:30:09 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:33:59 Anyone here know of an easy way to do the equivalent of (format nil "~:d" num) in elisp? 05:34:59 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:06 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-71-211.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:38:48 vng [n=vng@123.20.61.17] has joined #lisp 05:38:54 hello 05:39:19 gigamonkey: try #emacs :P 05:39:46 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:05 gigamonkey: I have an idea, use regexps! 05:43:05 Winning suggestions all around. 05:43:44 gigamonkey, C-h f format 05:43:45 Ok, let me make another one, in the same vein: switch to Climacs! 05:46:02 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:48:25 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:53:08 call out to sbcl through swank! 05:55:13 (or just (shell-command-to-string (format "sbcl --eval '(format nil \"~:d\" %d)'" num))) 05:55:44 *cmm* disgusts himself 05:56:33 Good morning! 05:56:50 beach: morning 05:57:04 morning, beach 06:02:40 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:03:56 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:04:42 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:08:57 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:14:08 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-71-211.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 06:16:56 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 06:22:04 -!- jenia [n=jenia@96.23.172.148] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:22:12 -!- baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:26:00 c|mell [n=cmell@94-43-166-38.dsl.utg.ge] has joined #lisp 06:28:56 -!- didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:31:22 baddog [n=liam@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 06:31:28 baddog_ [n=baddog@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 06:31:50 -!- baddog is now known as Guest95356 06:34:10 -!- ASau``` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:36:02 -!- Guest95356 is now known as baddog 06:40:35 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:43:12 -!- ContraSF [n=email@89.180.212.188] has left #lisp 06:46:26 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:47:18 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["Asta-la byebye"] 06:47:28 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 06:47:36 -!- rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Success] 06:50:03 maus [n=maus@222.253.104.243] has joined #lisp 06:52:42 hello vng 06:52:45 hello maus 06:52:54 hello beach 06:53:01 How are things going? 06:53:09 how are you doing today? 06:53:13 beach: hello 06:53:30 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-38-134.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:54:02 maus: I am fine, thanks. I am the president of a thesis committee, and the defense is this afternoon. But it will take all day because we have to pick up the other members at the airport, and then have lunch with them. 06:54:02 beach: we have been studying bit by bit.. it's a little bit hard 06:54:15 -!- sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:54:17 maus: What seems to be the problem? 06:55:07 -!- baddog_ [n=baddog@110.32.128.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:56:19 beach: although we understand your example, but applying it to the game is difficult.. we keep thinking of and trying hard 06:56:37 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:57:11 maus: Define a class (and therefore a presentation type) called cell, and use with-output-as-presentation when you draw the cell. 06:59:44 beach: thank you, that are also some thing we are trying, but we need to learn more about CL.. some basic things.. we are lacking of them 07:01:13 Well, just ask if you need help. 07:01:33 sure, sir :) 07:02:30 And, most importantly, send me code so that I can give feedback, or even better lisppaste it here so that eveyone can give you feedback. 07:02:45 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:03:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:03:20 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d0377bf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 07:03:41 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-151-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:05:01 beach: yes, we will,.. but it's just a piece of code.. 07:05:02 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:05:11 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has joined #lisp 07:05:16 maus: Doesn't matter. 07:05:46 beach: okie, sir. 07:07:58 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@94-43-166-38.dsl.utg.ge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:35 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-38-200.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Success] 07:11:30 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:13:05 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.216.183] has joined #lisp 07:13:52 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:16 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp114.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:48 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:18:25 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:19:20 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-152.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 07:20:10 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 07:35:48 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:36:16 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest27009 07:36:27 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 07:37:00 hmm... pity that no known to me CL implementation has sandboxing support :/ 07:37:15 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:38:03 is there some example of using swank from one CL image to another? 07:38:19 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:23 -!- Intertricity__ [n=Raz@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:41:11 cadabra [n=cadabra@76.23.34.5] has joined #lisp 07:41:17 -!- Guest27009 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:41:26 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:45:20 SimonAdameit [n=simon@fbivpn.informatik.uni-hamburg.de] has joined #lisp 07:45:54 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:49:49 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 07:50:27 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:54:52 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:57:03 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:58:32 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:59:11 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:59:12 does anybody of you use hunchentoot, I'm having this message back and I don't know why: Error while processing connection: I/O timeout reading #. 07:59:20 ? 07:59:27 good morning 07:59:38 hi mvilleneuve 08:00:31 hello mvilleneuve 08:01:15 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:04:51 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has joined #lisp 08:07:33 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:11:30 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:16 bombshelter13___ [n=bombshel@CPE0023cdd7a4b1-CM001cea87a35c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:17:05 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:18:50 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:56 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has left #lisp 08:19:14 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:47 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:20:08 leo2007 [n=leo@193.60.95.72] has joined #lisp 08:20:42 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:46 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:09 I solved my problem, usting the svn version of usocket 08:23:11 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:29:45 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 08:30:10 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:34:31 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 08:35:31 lispm [n=joswig@e177146198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:24 -!- bombshelter13___ [n=bombshel@CPE0023cdd7a4b1-CM001cea87a35c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:07 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:48:03 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:48:19 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:50:58 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:51:40 morning, #Lisp. What's up? 08:52:35 the sun is up 08:52:41 get to work! 08:52:47 I /am/ working! 08:52:51 gdb running and all. 08:53:00 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:53:15 mm a luxury of debuggers 08:53:22 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:53:28 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:54:49 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:55:00 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 08:55:06 gdb sounds unlispy 08:55:56 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 segv [n=mb@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:33 *varjag* was debugging linux boot code with 1 LED last week 08:57:37 as unlispy as it gets! 08:58:25 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:58:31 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:59:20 on a 1bit machine? 08:59:37 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:54 shinee [n=inklweb@163.239.150.111] has joined #lisp 09:02:56 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:03:30 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229240035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:03:33 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:04:02 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:07:10 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 09:07:15 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:07:40 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:21 ASau [n=user@host228-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 09:12:45 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:13:26 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:16:43 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:17:12 sepult` [n=levgue@87.78.123.190] has joined #lisp 09:17:13 -!- shinee [n=inklweb@163.239.150.111] has quit ["Inkl Web IRC :: http://barosl.com/webirc/"] 09:17:14 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 09:17:28 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-64.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:17:54 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:18:07 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:19:34 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:23:34 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:25:15 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:25:40 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-135-43.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:48 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:27:21 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d0668e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:26 good morning 09:27:42 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:47 moin 09:28:01 hi lispm :) 09:28:11 billitch_ [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has joined #lisp 09:29:39 fawxtin`` [n=user@150.162.165.254] has joined #lisp 09:29:39 -!- fawxtin` [n=user@150.162.165.254] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:34:55 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:37:08 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:57 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 09:39:48 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 09:40:53 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 09:41:58 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:25 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-234-59.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:43:05 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:43:50 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-231-180.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:02 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:44:28 -!- billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:44:28 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 09:52:13 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@76.23.34.5] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:52:21 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:53:23 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:59:12 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:59:19 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 10:00:41 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 10:00:49 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 10:00:53 hello 10:02:01 ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:45 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:05:42 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:06:34 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:06:39 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 10:06:41 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:29 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:16:18 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:39 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has quit ["Moving back to Spain! :-)"] 10:20:08 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:22:21 TR2N [i=email@89.180.200.86] has joined #lisp 10:22:26 is there something like #'position, which returns all matching positions, instead of only the first match? 10:22:55 madnificent: not built-in 10:23:09 ok, then I'll iterate over it manually :) 10:23:10 madnificent: position's :start arg would be helpful for making one 10:23:11 thanks 10:23:31 I could do that, but it would be faster to iterate over all values and find the match myself no? 10:23:53 (also: is there something like mapcar, which iterates over the characters of a string?) 10:24:33 map 10:24:47 really? thanks 10:24:49 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 10:25:03 (loop for c across string ...) 10:25:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:25:27 -!- vng [n=vng@123.20.61.17] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:26:12 across! that's the thing I thought I must've had imagined as I could not make it up again :D 10:26:53 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:28:39 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:37 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@193.60.95.72] has left #lisp 10:34:20 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_pos_p.htm doesn't specify a default test. Is there a default test described somewhere in a more general manner? 10:35:58 hjpark [n=user@119.207.211.188] has joined #lisp 10:36:02 the eql page talks about it 10:36:09 ..at the "notes" section (bottom) 10:36:32 ah, thanks :) 10:37:19 that's well hidden 10:37:52 Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-19-134.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:38:32 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:38:48 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:39:08 -!- Krystof_ is now known as Krystof 10:42:21 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:21 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.104.243] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:44:26 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:00 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:47:36 demmeln [n=Adium@d002.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:15 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-88-145.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:53:24 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBB02A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:55:56 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:56:08 -!- hjpark [n=user@119.207.211.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:56:49 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 10:58:25 Kaonashi [n=tanami@CPE-124-178-192-90.lns3.way.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:58:56 (hello) 11:00:29 -!- Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-41-160.iburst.co.za] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:00:37 I am looking for a good book on Common Lisp, any suggestions? 11:00:39 hello Kaonashi 11:00:49 minion: tell Kaonashi about pcl 11:00:50 Kaonashi: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 11:00:55 minion: tell Kaonashi about PCL 11:00:56 Kaonashi: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 11:01:02 mathrick: I won! 11:01:07 damn 11:01:12 hmm 11:01:12 ok 11:01:14 :) 11:01:20 I have a cat on my lap, that's why 11:01:35 oh, that's a good excuse :) 11:01:37 also, how good is the SICP in terms of programming fundamentals? 11:01:59 I can already program in Perl, but I wish to move to functional languages 11:01:59 minion should say 'kami' won, instead of presenting the same information twice 11:02:22 Kaonashi: that depends on what you mean by fundamentals, I think 11:02:40 SICP is more an Computer Science introduction, not so much about Lisp programming 11:02:43 the thought processes involved in creating programs 11:02:57 Kaonashi: also note that CL is not functional, it's multi-paradigm 11:03:08 reading SICP is definitely useful 11:03:26 but PCL is more direct applicable for learning Common Lisp 11:04:15 Kaonashi: as much as I find perl disgusting, CL and Perl are remarkably similar in their near-infinite malleability 11:04:15 ok 11:04:26 mathrick: heh 11:04:39 the main reason why I ditching perl is because of perl 6 11:04:56 because it'll be released right after duke nukem forever? 11:05:41 lol 11:05:46 Perl 6 has all the power and elegance of Godzilla 11:05:50 mathrick: good point, maybe they're writing dnf in perl 6! 11:06:00 actually, I was going to learn haskell instead of lisp 11:06:11 what happened? 11:06:25 I could not think of a practical application of haskell 11:07:36 he 11:07:51 according to haskellers, you can actually write stuff in it, but personally I don't consider it a language I'd like to write apps in 11:08:04 there is the X11 window manager xmonad 11:08:06 my friend uses haskell 11:08:18 you could directly compare xmonad with Stumpwm 11:08:21 and he has only ever written programs to solve projecteuler.net problems 11:08:27 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@d002.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:08:29 Stumpwm is written in Common Lisp 11:08:40 Kaonashi: that's what Haskell is for, no? :) 11:08:43 Kaonashi: many lisp novices start (and end) with those kinds of tasks, too. 11:08:46 haskell is a type-oriented language 11:08:50 There is also Yi, an editor in written in Haskell 11:08:58 and that vcs 11:09:14 Kaonashi: it helps to be creative and imaginative when using weird languages that nobody else uses... 11:09:17 you can compare the Yi source code to any editor written in Lisp and see what code is better 11:09:22 rsynnott: darcs is the ultimate demonstration on why the haskell mindset is not useful in practice 11:09:41 as a sidenote 11:09:48 the perl 6 interpreter is written in haskell 11:10:00 and common lisp 11:10:02 you can do practical stuff in haskell 11:10:06 *p_l* actually plans to make a real-world app in haskell. After he finishes his current Ruby project 11:10:06 and several other languages 11:10:28 p_l: wrong, and wrong... you are so perverted today ;) 11:10:30 p6 was actually designed to be implemented many times 11:10:32 how can you emulate an ctrl-c press through an :pty in sbcl:run-program? (write-byte 4 ) emulated ctrl-d successfully 11:10:37 p_l: what are you building? 11:10:47 the Haskell variant of Perl 6 was kind of dead last I looked 11:10:52 I think it stalled 11:11:00 lharc: write-byte 3? 11:11:15 the single person hacking on the Haskell Perl 6 decided to do something else 11:11:23 Xach: nothing happens :/ 11:11:47 send a SIGINT to the process? 11:11:59 jsnell: that'd be too easy! 11:12:17 http://www.xach.com/img/audreytang-perl6-timeline.png is from 2005 iirc 11:12:26 :| 11:12:32 ah yes, from the timestamp 11:12:52 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:58 Xach, the 'abandoned' part of the curve is missing 11:13:07 I finally have no exceptions calling unchentoot:stop and no more I/O timeout errors using usoket and hunchentoot from SVN, does anybody know when the next release of those two projects is ready ? 11:13:31 *socket 11:14:07 *lispm* looks for any new stackoverflow questions before Xach does... 11:14:39 bah. the feed is too slow. i see them when they're hours old. 11:14:41 madnificent: right now or later? 11:14:42 kiuma: there are no current release plans, but you could post two the two relevant mailing lists detailing why you think that a release should be made. 11:15:07 H4ns, thank you! 11:15:09 p_l: the two projects. I'm only curious though 11:15:10 madnificent: right now it's a real estate webapp, for later I've got quite a lot of projects.... 11:15:25 what would be better for a perl user to learn, scheme or clisp? 11:15:32 lispm: is stack overflow a competitive sport now? :) 11:15:43 Kaonashi: it is "common lisp" 11:16:07 laziness prevented me from writing it in full, I swear 11:16:21 Kaonashi: common lisp is more standardized. this channel is about common lisp. if you want scheme advocacy, go to #scheme 11:16:24 H4ns, I've also done a big claw refactoring too :). 11:16:27 rsynnott: in europe we are waking up earlier which gives some unfair competetive advantage 11:16:39 madnificent: the haskell one is a xen management tool, other than that, there's few common lisp projects (OpenCL, finally finishing up tokyo-* bindings, open source LinJ, my own commercial project etc.) 11:16:48 Knoshi: ah, i see! 11:17:21 oh you 11:17:48 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:18:26 p_l: OpenCL sonds cool :) 11:18:45 p_l: a healthy stack of projects which await :) 11:19:03 madnificent: OpenCL and LinJ clone are actually related, since both rely on the same base 11:19:24 also, clisp is not the same thing as common lisp 11:19:31 so, what kinds of jobs these days involve LISP? 11:19:34 rsynnott: ? 11:20:28 Kaonashi: GNU CLISP is a certain bytecoded implementation of ANSI Common Lisp, covered by GNU GPL license and I guess not considered the best choice ;-) 11:21:23 ahk 11:21:33 madnificent: the LinJ-like thing is for generating human-readable Java code 11:22:05 while OpenCL will have to generate a variant of C language 11:23:37 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:24:00 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@87.78.123.190] has quit [Client Quit] 11:24:18 p_l: java is not readable, admit it ;) 11:25:13 madnificent: sshh, it's a project for fooling java-based coursework 11:26:04 hahaha 11:26:21 the annoying thing is, I'll be doing a compsci course in 1 year 11:26:29 and they use C++ and Java 11:26:33 I have a feeling many future lispers will thank me for that project 11:26:48 p_l: can you finish it in 12 months? 11:27:24 Kaonashi: depends on my financial & housing status. The current one is: Broke & Homeless, which doesn't help 11:27:48 :< 11:28:07 Homeless? 11:28:07 so what kinds of jobs could I get working with lisp? 11:28:16 jsnell: that works :) thanks 11:28:17 Kaonashi: lisp jobs 11:28:18 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:28:20 p_l: then I need it! now! quick! :P 11:28:26 H4ns: really now.... 11:28:40 Kaonashi, http://planet.lisp.org/ http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ 11:28:56 Kaonashi: that is not a bad joke or anything. lisp is used and advocated by lisp lovers and used for a lot of different things 11:29:14 Kaonashi: you'll mostly find lisp in shops where one of the senior guys loves lisp. 11:29:22 lispm: Homeless 11:29:37 where do you live? Poland? 11:30:19 lispm: currently in UK 11:30:40 H4ns, lnostdal: thx 11:31:00 p_l: probably hit by the economic crisis there? 11:31:17 lispm: more like by failed deadlines 11:31:27 oh oh 11:31:34 you did not use Lisp! 11:31:35 billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-74-209-25-128.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:45 -!- Kolyan is now known as Kolyan[ 11:32:24 why do I get the feeling I won't be getting a job as a lisp programmer in australia? 11:32:24 lispm: and you should know that I really resent not forcing myself to use CL 11:32:31 -!- Kolyan[ is now known as Kolyan[away] 11:32:44 Kaonashi: because you don't know lisp yet? 11:33:02 Kaonashi: if you are chosing a programming language because you want to get a job using it, chose java. 11:33:10 (there is at least one lisp shop in Australia, and I think they were hiring recently) 11:33:23 p_l: next time ;-) 11:33:36 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:57 Kaonashi: you may find a job there. You may also do something by yourself and beat competition more easily :) 11:34:01 H4ns: I think I'd rather start using OS/2 for graphic design work 11:34:04 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BCD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:04 lispm: my startup plan includes CL on server side 11:34:17 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@fbivpn.informatik.uni-hamburg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:34:17 Kaonashi: or you may get frustrated and kill yourself because you're forced to code in -juck- Java 11:34:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:35 why do people like java?? 11:34:39 p_l: that's what some people seemed to have success with 11:35:01 or rather, why do so many places seem to want java programmers? 11:35:02 Kaonashi: they like it because they can hire large teams doing java 11:35:07 Kaonashi: because they read all sorts of marketing that java is great and never encounter anything else :) 11:35:12 Kaonashi: large teams == power 11:35:13 Kaonashi: because it helps paying bills? 11:35:16 damn it Sun 11:35:32 why did you betray me like this 11:36:01 I swear I have 5 different jre's installed on this debian box 11:36:08 the thing is the very same jobs would often be not more fun in Lisp (than Java) 11:36:15 much of the stuff is boring 11:36:22 eh 11:36:24 boring in Java and boring in Lisp 11:36:29 it'd be less painful with macros. 11:36:38 this always applies. 11:37:05 could be, but it could be more painful if you have to debug code 11:37:06 silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has joined #lisp 11:37:24 omfg! 11:37:25 http://mycareer.com.au/jobseeker/search/results.aspx?s=155&sq=programmer 11:37:38 count 1. Java and C++ and SQL 11:37:40 next website, 11:38:09 http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=31&Keywords=programmer&searchfrom=quick 11:38:12 even worse 11:38:14 lispm: most boring stuff is boring because you have a lot of repetition... lisp allows you to abstract that. 11:38:25 VB, Java, C# and SQL 11:38:39 madnificent: most boring stuff is boring because it is boring :) 11:38:45 miroku [n=miroku@c-71-231-183-36.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:50 most boring repetitive stuff stays repetitive 11:39:01 madnificent: and writing macros to make it less boring is interesting only once. 11:39:09 100 CRUD screens in Lisp are as boring as in Java 11:39:30 lispm: the current plans are for CL appserver and mixed CL/JS UI 11:39:31 H4ns: if you can abstract it, then the repetition should be away, thus the dull section is gone? 11:39:48 I might be wrong ofc 11:40:14 http://www.jobsearch.com.au/Default.aspx?tabid=55&k=programmer 11:40:18 that's what Dan Weinreb mentioned about their reservation system in contrast to the fare search engine 11:40:30 the search engine has interesting complex algorithms 11:40:48 the reservation system is less complex, but with lots of boring details 11:40:52 and screens 11:41:04 so far I have seen, SQL/Scala/MATLAB/C#/C++/Java/VB.NET 11:41:09 lispm: the screens are written in..... *drumroll* java! 11:41:16 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:41:24 the business logic behind that in Lisp 11:41:27 Kaonashi: please try staying on topic. 11:41:58 H4ns: don't they use Java+XML 11:41:59 this is on topic, I am trying my hardest to find a job in scheme/lisp/haskell/ocaml in australia 11:42:00 ? 11:42:02 madnificent: now imagine what sort of cow orkers you'd have in such place and how kindly they'll take to your design 11:42:17 lispm: having worked on that project, i can contribute to this discussion that it would have been a lot less interesting if it was written in java. 11:42:22 Kaonashi: this is not the Lisp job agency, here 11:42:42 lispm: right. the presentation layer is written in java, the core business logic and xml processing is done in lisp. 11:42:43 H4ns: ;-) 11:42:59 Kaonashi: the topic is loosely defined as "free lisp hacking, sbcl development, intelligent technical questions and answers" 11:43:05 XML = s-expressions + schema 11:43:33 lispm: right. if you have a lisp mindset in the first place :/ 11:44:05 Kaonashi: try http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ -- I recall seeing some jobs listed in australia over recent months 11:44:32 to get a lisp job, it helps to have learned lisp in advance. 11:44:47 it also helps to know what you're getting yourself in to 11:44:58 *into 11:45:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:45:37 H4ns: but you are now working in sunshine in California on the beach? 11:45:59 lispm: i'm working in grey berlin with very occasional trips to california. 11:46:01 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 11:46:12 ah 11:46:26 .oO(but it's a very friendly grey today *pretend*) 11:46:56 Berlin grey is 'dark grey' 11:47:16 lispm: yeah, unlike the always handsome, sunny hamburg gray 11:47:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:47:35 *p_l* suddenly decides to switch to Chrome as his dev. browser 11:47:35 I see red 11:47:49 red bricks 11:48:31 -!- miroku [n=miroku@c-71-231-183-36.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 11:49:18 Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-62-231.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:51:57 how was the Berlin Lisp meeting? 11:52:33 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-88-145.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:52:34 lispm: rather nice, indeed. about 10 people. we've decided to have this meeting monthly. 11:52:52 lispm: it will stay informal for now. 11:53:11 you meet where? 11:53:45 lispm: http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?page_id=5 11:55:17 sounds like a nice place 11:56:03 lispm: pretty much so. there are a lot of hostels in that area, so it is very international. 11:56:31 would be fun to visit a Berlin Lisp Meeting with some 'Hamburger' 11:56:59 lispm: yeah, you're very welcome! 11:57:07 something to plan for next year 11:58:22 -!- Kaonashi [n=tanami@CPE-124-178-192-90.lns3.way.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["leaving"] 12:05:07 rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:36 udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-agpqwlqlnmcotjda] has joined #lisp 12:09:28 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BCD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:09:36 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:09:48 sellout [n=greg@c-76-24-17-8.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:10 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:43 SimonAdameit [n=simon@134.100.5.65] has joined #lisp 12:12:15 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:12:44 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:08 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:14:33 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.15.18] has joined #lisp 12:17:25 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 12:18:19 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.15.18] has quit [Client Quit] 12:21:22 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:20 Geralt [n=Geralt@vpn-cl-160-168.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:31 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 12:29:14 joswig [n=joswig@f054054003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:34 -!- joswig [n=joswig@f054054003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:30:13 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:24 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:32:55 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:33:59 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 12:36:46 what's the convenient way of communicating with subprocess in SBCL? i want to print/read strings, but the streams run-program creates are binary... 12:38:34 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177146198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:59 ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has joined #lisp 12:41:29 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 12:41:36 jdz: you could also use flexi-streams to make the stream bivalent if the stream is not bivalent itself. 12:42:25 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:42:45 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:43:02 H4ns: oh, flexi-streams... 12:43:13 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:43:36 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 12:43:40 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 12:45:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 12:48:33 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:49:21 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-1-237.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:50:49 good afternoon 12:50:56 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:51:02 lispm [n=joswig@f054054003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:52:05 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:49 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:53:21 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:55:38 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442850.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:59:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 13:05:44 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:50 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:21 -!- ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:10:14 *Xach* hopes everyone finds a lisp meeting to visit this month 13:10:29 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:11:46 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-231-180.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:13:38 Xach: There's one here, too: http://www.meetup.com/The-Boulder-Lisp-Users-Group/ 13:15:08 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:16:37 *Xach* has their schedule in google reader, will pounce on the next meeting 13:16:48 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:59 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-224-84.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:06 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:21:30 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 13:22:49 Hm.. Lisping in Göteborg, yes... 13:24:28 tic: the stockholm fellow said he couldn't manage more than one meeting a year 13:25:03 last time I needed one hour to get to the Lisp meeting on the other side of the town 13:25:33 German rail tells me that I need 2:30 to go to the Lisp meeting in Berlin 13:25:49 2 hours 30, not that bad 13:26:22 lispm: and you can have an outlet to power your laptop from :) 13:26:31 Xach, I wouldn't mind managing a Lisp meetup here in Göteborg (in my place, even), I just need to find local Lispers. .-) 13:26:58 H4ns: wow, also an Drehstromanschluss for 'Hans'? 13:27:27 lispm: it's about the same time for a trip to Boston for me 13:27:30 'Hans' was the 3600 Martin Cracauer took over 13:27:41 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:50 Gbg to Sthlm takes approx 5 hours. 13:27:53 lispm: gee. does the 3600 really need drehstrom? 13:27:57 (depending on which train.) 13:28:08 Xach, from where do you travel 13:28:19 yes, 'drehstrom' 13:28:19 lispm: Portland, Maine 13:28:26 ah, by car? 13:28:52 apparently some parts of America have "trains" 13:29:05 but they are unused, right? 13:29:09 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 13:29:15 cmm: what, there are places where trains were not yet exterminated in favour of cars? :D 13:29:16 no idea! 13:29:36 no there's amrak 13:29:38 lispm: I take the train. 13:29:40 *amtrak 13:29:42 lispm: i've successfully used a train from boston to new york. now outlet, though, and a pretty bumpy ride. 13:29:44 I once took the train from Boston to New York, crawling along 13:29:53 s/now/no/ 13:30:02 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:20 H4ns: no outlet? oh noes! 13:30:22 the train is not that bad, the tracks are 13:30:28 p_l: where I live, the train network is actually being actively expanded. while remaining grotesquely inconvenient so people prefer cars anyway 13:30:38 The Portland-Boston train is quite scenic for the first 15 minutes as it passes through a vibrant saltwater marsh filled with tidal streams and shorebirds. 13:30:38 *lispm* needs a Laptop with more running time 13:31:16 *p_l* loves National Express trains in North East Scotland... free wifi, smooth ride, power sockets + desks 13:31:33 it's not as good as western europe but maybe better than india 13:31:47 lispm: consider getting an expansion battery 13:32:22 cmm: makes sense, with solar charger 13:32:49 anyone using Lisp on an 'atom' cpu? 13:32:59 netbook with long running time? 13:33:02 you might also consider getting an alcohol-powered battery 13:33:07 lispm: I do, sort of (for playing around) 13:33:25 p_l: I'm alcohol-powered 13:33:28 joke 13:33:41 *Lycurgus* doesn't care about wifi now that iphone tethering just works. 13:33:41 it's hard to say whether it's slow because of Atom or because of running in coLinux, but it's not very fast 13:34:26 wifi is actually a hindrance, as far as hacking is concerned 13:34:41 I'd hope also for 64bit Atom chips 13:35:02 there are 64bit Atom chips? 13:35:20 *cmm* completely fails to see the point 13:35:26 cmm: iirc the ones that aren't actually Pentiums in disguise are supposed to introduce 64bit code 13:35:46 cmm: for servers and compatibility with larger machines? 13:35:47 the point is that it will then run 64bit Lisps ;-) 13:35:55 or 40bit ones 13:35:55 aren't Atom chips going obsolete when quantum computing arrives? 13:36:02 hr hr 13:36:06 Adlai: hurr durr 13:36:10 p_l: why would anyone put an Atom in a server? 13:36:17 cmm, power efficiency of course. 13:36:25 ah, that 13:36:27 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:36:33 small server just doing ruting and basic other tasks... well. 13:36:40 or, for non-cpu-bound tasks 13:36:42 salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:48 cmm: power efficient servers that don't need lots of processing power and that fit in small spaces, for example for monitoring, management etc. 13:36:50 did someone say "mips"? 13:36:55 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest90584 13:37:02 cmm, that's not x86! 13:37:05 -!- Guest90584 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:37:15 yeah, I guess that matters too 13:37:29 -!- Kolyan[away] is now known as Kolyan 13:37:38 intel recently showed small "bricks" with low-power Nehalem (also to be sold under Atom brand), memory, network interface and some basic storage iirc 13:37:43 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:37:50 probably cheaper than most MIPS/ARM solutions, too. 13:38:15 tic: only because there aren't many available anymore outside of integrated, shrink wrapped hardware/software combos 13:38:16 yeah, mass production and all that 13:38:22 Exactly. 13:38:29 economies of scale. 13:38:57 if they will run Solaris well, I could see those getting used at my old company 13:40:06 I suspect Sun could make similar ones with T1/T2 13:45:07 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:46:01 (which would probably run circles around Nehalem for that configuration) 13:46:01 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054054003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:12 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBB02A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:52:37 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:31 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 13:57:39 antifuchs: you need to add tcr to the list used by git-cvsimport(http://tinyurl.com/yjr9lw7) 14:01:52 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:02:05 tic: seriously, atom for energy efficiency? Why not an ULV Core, Core 2 or P-M? Any difference in idling power consumption would easily be dwarfed by that of the rest of the infrastructure. 14:02:47 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gfxuxatffcfngucw] has left #lisp 14:02:48 lispm [n=joswig@e177126031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:41 pkhuong, I'm not saying it would be /my/ choice. :-) 14:05:33 pkhuong: they made a new chip for the server Atoms, no more hideous 945 14:06:06 p_l: so you can now get atoms with a decent chipset. Quite the development. 14:06:06 (since the whole NetBurst bus doesn't work with new server-targeted Atoms) 14:06:35 pkhuong: I think I'd still rather choose T1 or T2 for such a server 14:07:25 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-38-134.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:07:40 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-38-134.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:07:42 it might not have the floating point or vector performance, but I guess it isn't the important thing for a low-power server :D 14:08:51 sellout- [n=greg@c-76-24-17-8.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:25 Ah yeah, the old chipset was fairly sucky. 14:09:32 heh. the current low-power Nehalem solution takes 45W for CPU xD 14:09:57 they are working towards 25W idle and 75W max (for the whole brick) 14:11:27 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 14:12:57 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 14:16:50 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1904.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:20:52 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:21:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-76-24-17-8.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:21:24 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 14:25:00 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:29:14 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 14:40:25 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 14:40:49 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:47 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-151-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:55 Xach: herep 14:42:05 hello gigamonkey 14:42:44 Planet Lisp looks funny to me with the @2009-11-07T20:02Z datestamps below the title and sticking out to the right. 14:42:59 Is that a new look? Or is something busted? 14:43:50 it's a different design, but it's possible I screwed up the display. they should be below the title, but not sitcking out. 14:43:54 Dodek_ [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has joined #lisp 14:43:54 could you show me a screenshot? 14:45:45 http://gigamonkeys.com/tmp/planet-funny.png 14:46:09 gigamonkey: shift-reload to get the new css 14:46:10 -!- Dodek_ is now known as Dodek 14:46:55 any better? 14:47:14 Much nicer. 14:47:43 *Xach* should probably version the css file name to avoid cache problems 14:48:05 Though you should probably do the thing that makes the timestamp links underline on hover. 14:48:21 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 14:48:54 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d066411.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:08 *Xach* will do that thing 14:49:13 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d0668e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:49:16 -!- serichse` is now known as serichsen 14:49:54 *gigamonkey* is grooming himself for management. 14:52:17 next task: manage a balisp meeting into existence 14:52:36 Let's put a pin in that one. 14:52:50 anyone familiar with heirarchial token buckets? 14:52:59 CBQ / HTB and the likes 14:53:13 not exactly a LISP question 14:53:27 Xach: the calendar was a good idea 14:53:38 I'm turning into a novelist anyway--NaNoWriMo FTW! 14:53:56 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.97] has joined #lisp 14:54:03 starek: I think there's a #network channel 14:54:09 tcr: thanks. i hope higher visibility means more meeting announcements and attendance 14:54:24 hello everyone 14:54:28 tcr: network looks empty 14:54:41 Xach: do you know about http://www.meetup.com/balisp/ ? 14:54:48 gigamonkey: i do. i subscribe to its feed. 14:55:02 starek: I've been to some network channel in past, I forgot the name though. 14:55:23 And also http://www.lispniks.com/mailman/listinfo/bay-area-lispniks ? 14:55:27 *Xach* is trying to do the legwork to find meetings himself, though this past month was the best ever for meeting organizers contacting him first 14:55:36 can someone give an example of how to use remove-method? Which arguments does it expect? 14:55:41 gigamonkey: i don't think i heard about that. 14:55:46 The meetup is more active these days but most things get posted to both. 14:55:49 ok tcr 14:55:54 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:56:10 Xach: I think people will be happy to register themselves if you provide some form 14:56:14 The mailing list is the one I set up and which I used to use to set up get-togethers. 14:56:22 akamaus: when i want to remove a method, i almost always inspect the generic function and use slime's klickibunti interface for removing it 14:56:54 tcr: do you organize a meeting? would you like to have write access to the calendar? 14:57:01 Xach, thanks for an idea, I'll try 14:57:10 "klickibunti" has found its way into english vocabulary? 14:57:22 serichsen: sure, why not? 14:57:32 I am amazed 14:58:00 serichsen: It's in the vocabulary of #lisp due to high german-speaking attendance 14:58:01 we also know all about the bielefeld conspiracy, so watch out. 14:58:14 heh 14:58:42 serichsen: If you're close to Munich, consider joining our meeting tomorrow 14:59:06 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:59:13 Xach, works perfectly, thanks a lot 14:59:14 tcr: I considered, but Hamburg is not close enough to Munich for me 14:59:17 Xach: The Lisp meetings in Munich are self-organizing which most means that no meeting takes place 14:59:23 mostly 14:59:38 ok 15:01:06 tcr, how often do the Munich meetings happen? I can't make it tomorrow but it's actually not -that- far off. 15:01:21 I thought you came from israel? 15:01:22 I guess how often are they supposed to happen 15:01:43 right, it's only a few hours flight, and I have relatives in Munich that I could visit. 15:02:10 Heh 15:02:19 tcr: recommend any channels 15:03:14 starek: I can't sorry. I have some shallow remembrance that it was on oftc 15:03:19 Adlai: are the physicists too ? 15:03:32 Adlai: Best is you subscribe to the mailing list 15:03:48 tcr, ok. fe[nl]ix, !? 15:04:07 gigamonkey: thanks, i subscribed. how does bay area lispniks differ from balisp, if at all? 15:05:41 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:07:53 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 15:09:27 *Xach* adds the cl-user map to planet lisp 15:13:17 Bay Area Lispniks is older. balisp was started by someone who organized a few meetings via the mailing list and then decide, I guess, that he wanted more modern tools. 15:13:29 tcr: try my luck at openwrt 15:13:45 There are also occassional conversations on the lispniks list unrelated to organizing get-togethers. 15:15:07 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.49] has joined #lisp 15:17:27 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:18:01 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-72-247.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:18:19 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:18:23 ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has joined #lisp 15:18:48 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-72-247.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:19:05 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.236] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:12 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:20:35 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8272.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:49 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:22:36 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 15:22:53 tcr, I hope there'll be a pdf or recording of your sequence-iterators talk tomorrow? 15:22:56 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 15:24:50 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-172.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:25:05 Adlai: Sure I'll put the slides online; I don't think you'll miss anything you shouldn't already know 15:25:59 pkhuong: I have a small feature request regarding the "Assignment to argument .. prevents use of assertion of [ftype]" note. 15:26:02 -!- ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:26:30 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:27:06 pkhuong: I think that note should not be emitted if SBCL derives the type of the value of the assignment, and that type is "compatible" with the asserted ftype type. 15:27:59 pkhuong: (I mention it to you because doing it myself would cost me too much time I don't have; I'd hope it's a SMOP for you.) 15:28:31 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:46 tcr: I'm not sure... We'll see. 15:29:05 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:29:06 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:29:56 pkhuong: In my specific case, I have ftypes for functions, and then a (CHECK-SEQUENCE-BOUNDS seq start end) will store normalized values for START and END back into these variables, and the resulting types are known to sbcl. 15:30:32 (That's why I cannot just create new bindings) 15:33:13 The analysis happens before types are available. 15:34:29 ok so it's probably not a smop 15:36:04 tcr, do you think there should be a similar macro that creates new bindings? 15:36:38 I think it's an SBCL annoyance. I'd be fine if that note could be given a specific name so I can muffle it 15:36:54 The generated code is a bit lossy though. 15:37:22 Well I contemplated declaring the argument bindings too along the ftype 15:37:38 but that inserts two traps, one for the ftype and one for the declaration 15:37:47 (even though only one type check seems to be performed) 15:38:26 you mean add a declaration after check-sequence-bounds? (or within its expansion) 15:39:14 before, the problem is that an ftype declaim specifies input, but does not declare the type of the actual argument's binding 15:39:28 tcr: the best way I can see is (declaim ftype) (defun (x ...) (let ((x x) ...)) 15:39:31 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:39:35 (as pkhuong clarified to me a few days ago) 15:39:35 oh, I see 15:39:37 Greetings. 15:40:14 that actually makes sense, I guess, although adding a declaration for the argument when there's also a matching ftype shouldn't generate double checks (imo) 15:40:46 pkhuong: If I only declare the argument bindings, and use (declare (values..)) and *derive-function-types*? 15:41:13 I had another thought related to my Lisp on LLVM ramblings from yesterday. Would a properly designed FFI for a Lisp on LLVM provide access to all libraries compiled with LLVM regardless of the language front-end? 15:41:29 tcr: btw, is there a reason you're calling the functions in your patch typexpand* instead of type-expand*? that seems like a rather 70s kind of contraction :-) 15:41:32 tmh: the hard part usually isn't calling out. 15:41:49 Adlai: If you've got nothing to do, you could submit the generation of two error traps on ftype declaim + variable type declare to launchpad 15:42:05 jsnell: old school is cool school! 15:42:23 tcr, I have to run to a music lesson now, but I can do it in ~2 hours 15:43:08 jsnell: I like it, but I don't mind. I'd be more interested about the third return value controversial. 15:43:13 tcr: declaim + rebinding the argument will keep the declaimed type (no assignment), and will let the type propagator do its job on the let binding. 15:43:32 pkhuong: Ok, hadn't thought of that. So does the architecture of LLVM facilitate call back? (I realize that may require knowledge of LLVM not available here.) 15:43:50 *tmh* is very intrigued with Lisp on LLVM. 15:45:16 tcr: I ddn't reliz tht thrd vlue ws contrvrsl. why? 15:45:25 tmh: you still have to keep some kind of common ABI. How you do it, it's your problem - LLVM simply provides an abstract VM that compiles into efficient assembly 15:45:30 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:46:04 jsnell: That information is unrelated to expanding a type. So I thought explicitly providing a type-specifier-p would perhaps be considered to be more sensible 15:46:33 pkhuong: Ok 15:46:41 p_l: Can the ABI be based on the LLVM intermediate representation? 15:46:41 yeah, I read that in the original message. that just didn't seem very controversial :-) 15:46:56 It's controversial for me in so far I cannot decide :-( 15:47:24 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:49 p_l: thanks for adding yourself to the cl-user map. it reminded me that the map exists! 15:47:59 Xach: no problem :D 15:48:08 the only reason I could see for not having the separate functions is if you think the behavior of type-expand and type-expand-1 should somehow be different here 15:48:13 tmh: I suppose you can add a virtual opcode that will abstract abi 15:48:25 (since having a type-specifier-1-p would not be good) 15:49:04 milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.64] has joined #lisp 15:49:10 p_l: Thanks. We've now exceeded my knowledge of both LLVM and compiler implementation, which admittedly wasn't much to begin with. :-) 15:49:23 jsnell: Well the third value really was an afterthought; I first thought that you could define type-specifier-p as (nth-value 1 (typexpand-1 form));; but that won't work on primitive types 15:50:41 It's like a third-wheel 15:50:51 I remember people asking for a type-specifier-p before (and finding out that (subtypep x x) isn't one portably). so it seems like something that shouldn't be just an afterthought 15:51:04 tmh: hmm, I found that there's support for defined calling conventions 15:51:13 that is to say, I'd be happier with it as a separate function 15:51:22 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 15:51:46 tmh: so you can define a function object with, for example, "ccc" calling convention, which would comply with typical UNIX ABI 15:52:08 jsnell: Should I perhaps rather call it defined-type-p? It could be argued that almost any list is a (possibly just not yet defined) type-specifier 15:52:51 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 15:53:09 yes, that's the kind of argument that gives us sbcl's (subtypep 'foo 'foo) :-( 15:53:23 I would like to believe that LLVM is the "Great Lisp Hope"(tm) providing us performance, portability and access to more foreign libraries for virtually free. Allowing us to piggy-back on the accomplishments and advancements of the LLVM community. :-) 15:53:27 valid-type-p? 15:53:33 jsnell: (subtypep 'foo nil) is portable to find out if something's an atomic type-specifier 15:53:51 (or a derived type-specifier that only expands to an atomic type-specifier) 15:53:56 All for the cost of a lisp front-end. 15:54:07 tmh: you go on believing, then 15:54:17 At least that's my reading of subtypep's clhs page 15:54:25 jsnell: I think it's more of a dream than a belief. 15:54:31 jsnell: (nth-value 1 (subtypep 'foo nil)) to be exact 15:54:54 tmh: it wouldn't be easy like that, I think 15:55:07 Of course, either dream or belief are best held with ignorance. 15:58:09 tcr: I think subtypep is allowed to do anything it pleases if the inputs aren't valid types 15:58:18 tmh: Or realized with effort :) 15:58:27 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:09 tcr: ok, so I can catch trivial cases. 16:00:19 sellout: Yeah, I have to be honest with myself and realize that I don't have the spare effort to develop the expertise to implement Lisp on LLVM. Maybe someday, but not soon, at least from me. 16:00:29 pkhuong: I'm afraid my cases aren't so trivial, they involve type derivation from another function's ftype declaim 16:00:44 -!- ASau [n=user@host228-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 16:00:48 *Xach* likes the "life would be so much nicer if only my OS was written in Lisp" dream 16:00:53 tmh: there are different strategies - you could, for example, add new instructions that would mangle resulting bytecode to include necessary changes. However, that means that your bitstream would be incompatible with any other. You can also make intrinsics, which would perform necessary book keeping like a microcode, and define externally-visible functions following local ABI that would use those intrinsics to switch between worlds 16:01:24 tcr: that qualifies as trivial ;) 16:01:41 So what's a non trivial case? 16:02:10 It also involves mutiple-value-setq! 16:02:13 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 16:02:29 (multiple-value-setq (sequence start end) (validate-sequence-bounds sequence start end)) 16:02:33 (defun foo (x) (setf x (logior x 1)) ...), where x is declaimed fixnum. 16:04:55 Ah ok. 16:04:58 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:04:59 (So I better quit as I've got to get this presentation done.) 16:05:04 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 16:07:47 p_l: Thanks, I only partially understand your response. I really need to get some other projects out of the way before I seriously consider digging into something like Lisp on LLVM. My interest in it was piqued this weekend. 16:08:14 Which is why I keep rambling on about it. I'll pipe down now and get some real work done. 16:08:44 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:09:00 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:27 Ok, one more question, last one, I promise. A Lisp on LLVM would ideally compile to the LLVM intermediate representation. So, the Lisp compiler would still have to perform some optimizations to obtain optimized IR, which would then be further optimized by the LLVM back-end? 16:11:30 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-72-247.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:41 *tmh* needs to focus. 16:13:50 tmh: probably. something along the lines of sbcl's type inferencing, I think. 16:14:23 Hmm, so a first stab at Lisp on LLVM would be to 'port' SBCL to the LLVM instruction set? 16:14:32 s/would/could/ 16:14:33 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:14:35 tmh: you would have to do high-level optimization pass, I guess (such as common subexpression elimination etc.), then generate LLVM instructions and let it do the low level optimizations (including TCO etc.) 16:15:09 tmh: yeah, but it could be a weird port... 16:15:46 llvm should do things like cse for your 16:16:20 Yeah, llvm is good at cse. 16:16:20 *deepfire* cannot believe the scarcity of results on "tracing ioctls" and "ioctl tracing" that google and yahoo return. 16:16:53 froydnj: possible, but depends on the level at which you want it done - I guess that you could make some extra optimizations while working on the lisp code, then feeding it to LLVM to do another pass 16:17:29 nyef, therep 16:17:32 p_l: please clarify with an example 16:19:21 froydnj: hmmm... type inferencing and optimization of known cases to direct calls (removing lookups for methods etc.), then feeding it to LLVM? Partial evaluation where possible? 16:19:39 I'm not going to claim that I'm good at compiler technology, I just read some stuff :D 16:19:52 p_l: That might be something I could justify the time, for, though. I've been wanting to dig into compilers more, SBCL specifically and this would also give me a chance to dig into LLVM. If it fails, at least I'll understand SBCL better. 16:20:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 16:20:37 Fresh SBCL checkout doesn't compile for me: FAILURE-P was set when creating "obj/from-xc/src/code/unix.lisp-obj 16:20:50 p_l: ah, then I think we are in agreement. I just don't think of cse as a "high-level" optimization 16:21:33 froydnj: I guess it depends on what we put as "expression" into that statement ^^; 16:21:50 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:23:09 LiamH, I just built 1.0.32.14 on linux/x86-64 16:24:03 deepfire: Hmm. I'm using clbuild, just did "update sbcl" and "compile-implementation sbcl". 16:25:32 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:20 tmh: one of my projects includes, as a far away goal, compilation of lisp code into CL + OpenCL. While it's not like talking directly to LLVM, it might be a nice thing :) 16:26:41 liron [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:06 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:36 attila_lendvai: ping 16:29:10 p_l: Thanks, now I'm reading the OpenCL page because I thought it was GPU specific but Wikipedia says otherwise. This is not helping me focus. :-) 16:31:02 Open Common Lisp! 16:31:26 *tmh* experiences information overload 16:31:47 do a soft reset 16:31:53 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:57 My ramblings into the world of compilers needs to be suspended until next weekend. Must. Work. 16:32:13 tmh: if you have x86 linux/windows machine, grab ATi's OpenCL SDK, if OSX, grab 10.6, if PowerPC, grab an AIX ;-) 16:35:32 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:23 nunb [n=nundan@94.161.155.201] has joined #lisp 16:38:30 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:53 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:40:13 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 16:40:56 confounds_focus [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:05 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-19-134.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:06 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:44:33 -!- confounds_focus [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 16:47:36 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Killed by Md (broken bot, please contact staff)] 16:48:15 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:56 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:49:27 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:52:53 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.200.86] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:53:20 ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has joined #lisp 16:54:07 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:31 deepfire: Pong 16:57:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:04 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:59:48 -!- ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has left #lisp 17:01:15 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BCD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:07 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:05:25 -!- segv [n=mb@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [] 17:05:43 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 17:07:22 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [] 17:07:30 nyef, have you had ioctl problems with bulk-io in lh-usb (any version)? 17:08:51 *Fare* wrote a regression test suite for xcvb, fixed regressions, got cl-launch to work with ECL. 17:08:51 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:05 nyef, I have weird problems with bulk reads, appearing or disappearing depending on how I arrage build/load, with sources unchanged. 17:09:34 Fare: productive weekend! 17:09:35 nyef, also, SBCL-only, works fine with ECL, for example. 17:10:06 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:07 nyef, doesn't depend on SBCL version, -- 1.0.9 to 1.0.32 exhibit it. 17:10:21 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 17:11:06 The issue is the ioctl returning "bad address" status on bulk reads. Currently I'm considering logging ioctls kernel-side, to see if buffers somehow get wedged. 17:11:29 systemtap++ 17:11:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:12:55 konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 17:13:15 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:23 foom, good idea, thanks! The thing was hovering on my mind, somehow avoiding getting in a bright spot.. 17:14:20 -!- HET3 is now known as HEt2 17:14:22 -!- HEt2 is now known as HET2 17:17:33 -!- nunb [n=nundan@94.161.155.201] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:19:35 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@134.100.5.65] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:08 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:20:28 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-2-151-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:39 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-151-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:20:42 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 17:20:59 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:21:04 Xach: how does one get on the CL-USERS map? 17:22:18 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:26 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:24:21 gigamonkey: the "edit" button, i think 17:29:09 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-agpqwlqlnmcotjda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:24 -!- salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:46 redblue [i=star@ppp180.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:29:55 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:33:23 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:26 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:45 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 17:34:34 Beeff [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:35:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:19 I'm looking for something for my research. anyone ever heard of a system which combines macros? e.g. taking 2 macros and combining them into a big one by matching the variables 17:35:28 without instantiating the macros 17:35:58 only remotely related paper I can find is about first class macros 17:36:09 seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-116-45.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:24 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:37:09 Beeff: combine them how? 17:37:56 if you want random code generation through generative grammars, see pfdietz's test code generator 17:39:27 f(a,b): a+b ; g(c): c*2 ==> combine g with f in the second argument -> f(a,g(b)) == h(a,b): a+b*2 17:40:06 vars within a body are unique, the combination basically sets a constraint that f's b needs to be the same as g's c 17:41:26 it's easier than it sounds :( 17:41:28 gigamonkey: Were you able to add yourself to the CL-USERS map? I've not figured it out. 17:41:31 desmaj [n=user@li24-135.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:38 -!- desmaj [n=user@li24-135.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 17:41:48 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-151-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:06 p_l figured it out. p_l, how did you do it? 17:42:09 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:43:02 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 17:43:06 Beeff, are you sure you want this for macros and not functions? 17:43:14 yeah 17:43:30 it's not lisp I'm writing, more a sort of mathematical formalism 17:43:47 then why use macros at all? 17:43:53 you could see it as writing a compiler for a graphical circuit notation 17:43:57 you look like you need your own stuff 17:44:04 it is my own stuff 17:44:04 *Adlai* know no clue 17:44:11 but it's very related to macros 17:44:27 maybe you should google for HOAS 17:44:36 Higher-Order Abstract Syntax 17:44:42 looks like it's what you need. 17:44:55 k checking 17:45:52 basically I hacked together a compiler that looked a lot like macro instantiation+combination, so I'm looking for an actual existing formal system that describes it already :) 17:46:32 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:47:06 yes, thank you, I think this is exactly what I was looking for 17:47:44 deepfire: I haven't used lh-usb in a while, but... I've always used it on SBCL 1.0.11, so that's within the range that doesn't show problems. 17:48:20 Is it just 'add placemark'? 17:48:27 That seems a little imprecise. 17:52:50 That's it, edit, then there is an add placemark button. 17:54:49 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:55:08 TR2N [i=email@89-180-220-234.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 17:59:22 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:59:42 segv [n=mb@p4FC1DFA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:51 hah. a lot of people joined the map today. 18:07:47 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 18:10:36 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:17 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1DFA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 18:12:17 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:13:34 There's a big empty list between the () of the West and East coasts of the U.S. 18:13:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 18:14:35 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:15:29 Hey! I live in fly-over country. 18:16:05 And for the most part, I'd just as soon people keep flying over. 18:17:16 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:17:38 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:19:34 cvandusen: it's pretty interesting to see nighttime light pollution maps of the continental US. it's very sparse west of the Mississippi. 18:19:40 (until you get to the coast) 18:20:05 cow-orker [n=user@c541745C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 18:21:40 nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:41 Xach: Surprisingly enough, light pollution is pretty bad in fly-over country even if it doesn't show up on that map. 18:21:41 Xach: yep. Having driven through Wyoming & Montana, I was surprised that things like wifi & "modern" technology exist there 18:22:14 cvandusen: Hey! We also have indoor plumbing, pal. 18:22:27 *redline6561* wishes atlanta lispers would appear. :) 18:22:38 redline6561: ahaas! 18:22:40 tmh: I made extensive use of it too! :) 18:23:19 xach: ahaas? what sort of exclamation was that, exactly? :) 18:23:32 -!- silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has quit [] 18:24:11 Actually, in those places I guess I was surprised to see *anything*. Nothingness just goes on & on 18:24:22 redline6561: he's a flash/lisp nerd of the highest quality. haven't seen him around lately though. he's in atlanta, i think. 18:24:54 xach: Ah, thanks very much! 18:24:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-xzbiabhmfbxjuggm] has joined #lisp 18:25:04 cvandusen: One of the most memorable experiences I've ever had was flying a small plane at 8,000-ft over the flint hills of Kansas at night. The milky way was incredible. 18:25:39 tmh: I feel jealousy. 18:25:49 *tmh* likes I-35 from Emporia-Wichita, KS through the flint hills. 18:27:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:21 redline6561: I'm in Nashville, I wouldn't mind driving to ATL for a lisp user meeting if there were at least a week notice.... 18:28:47 tsuru: did you stick yourself on the map? 18:29:25 I just cliented in to emacs for the first time today... is the link on planet? 18:29:27 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:29:36 salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:56 tsuru: yeah 18:29:57 tsuru: Good to know. There is some interest on meetup.com. Maybe if I get done with my school assignments, I'll get around to setting something up. ;) 18:34:35 Xach: there is an edit button if you're logged into a google account.. 18:35:03 p_l: and just type over the existing data? 18:35:17 cvandusen: it kinda doesn't have ACLs, you see... 18:35:23 No, there is an 'add placemark' button on the map 18:35:43 tmh: maybe it doesn't require hitting "Edit" first. :) 18:36:22 redline6561: what part of Atlanta are you in? 18:36:29 *ntd* posts for georgia tech's ccb 18:36:31 tmh: I couldn't find the 'add placemark' myself, had to go with 'edit' 18:36:32 p_l: Oops, thought that was already established. 18:36:52 Sorry, hit the edit button, then the add placemark button appears. 18:37:02 so, "Edit" -> add placemark -> "Done" 18:37:13 I think you have to save 18:37:21 I doubt I'll see more than myself in Aberdeen 18:37:54 p_l: You're in aberdeen too? 18:37:55 ntd: North Druid Hills/Peachtree/Ashford Dunwoody Area. Sometimes called Brookhaven. 18:38:13 Xach: Is there anyone else? :) 18:39:22 the closest lisper seems to be in Glasgow 18:39:35 Though if my startup works out I might get few extra people 18:40:15 ntd: You should add yourself to Xach's almighty map. :) 18:40:34 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:40:38 that map is a good thing, we should popularize it more? 18:41:04 incf p_l 18:41:35 It's not mine, it's been around for quite a while 18:41:40 It's just not highly visible 18:41:55 *Xach* hopes to improve that by sticking it on planet lisp 18:42:40 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:42:58 Xach: duly noted. 18:43:08 Xach: maybe get it added to channel topic? (in url-shortened form) 18:43:50 *ntd* adds himself to the CL-USER map 18:45:27 heh. First three hits for "Common Lisp" and Aberdeen are for two papers ('98 and '00) from my university, the fourth is from my mostly-abandoned blog :/ 18:46:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:18 how do you add yourself to it? 18:47:34 madnificent: scroll back a little 18:47:50 http://tinyurl.com/y88omlx <--- does this URL work for you? 18:47:51 ok 18:49:25 benny [n=benny@i577A0C07.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:49:25 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:49:26 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 18:49:31 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:38 is http://l1sp.org/r/hx84 shorter? 18:50:41 yes! whee 18:51:05 Xach: now, to get it into highly-visible place :) 18:51:44 *p_l* thinks that ALU should move from lisp.org to alu.lisp.org or something similar 18:52:14 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-38-134.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:11 lacedaemon [n=lacedaem@94.162.27.18] has joined #lisp 18:53:42 Hi 18:54:46 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-27-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:56:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 18:56:46 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:15 *lispm* zooms in and is in Sudan 18:57:35 *lispm* the center of the Lisp World 18:58:16 Is there a function to calculate the 'center of gravity' of the CL-USER map? 18:58:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:53 or a weighted map, where the size of a country is determined by the number of Lispers 18:58:57 tmh: theory or practice? 18:59:35 p_l: Practice. Nothing rigorous, just a swag. Surely there is some sort of coordinate data associated with each placemark. 18:59:48 p_l: For entertainment purposes, only. :-) 19:00:15 there is one Lisp guy in whole of Russia 19:01:08 do I need to log in to see where I can add? 19:01:38 tmh: wait a while, I might get something 19:02:09 Lisp already has 'map' - why do we have to use google? 19:02:20 blygiss [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:02:44 Ok, I've accomplished very little this morning, so in order to salvage the afternoon, I must bid #lisp adieu. 19:02:51 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 19:03:43 lispm, because GOOGLE:MAP isn't a recognized result type specifier 19:04:17 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:48 coyo [i=alex@144.162.133.68] has joined #lisp 19:06:52 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CC20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:03 c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has joined #lisp 19:08:48 the map is still a bit 'empty' 19:09:50 flatline [n=flatline@z166195.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 19:11:57 Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-6-186.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:12:58 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 19:15:39 -!- lacedaemon [n=lacedaem@94.162.27.18] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:17:22 lispm, it's just that russian lispers don't trust google to not be evil. 19:17:36 clever 19:17:49 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.19.156] has joined #lisp 19:18:18 I like openstreetmap and opencyclemap 19:18:58 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:19:20 would be fun to have an open/lisp-based thing 19:20:10 -!- Beeff [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:26:36 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:39 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 19:27:42 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.19.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:28:15 lispm: well, for now, we are _the_ hamburg lispers 19:28:31 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-103-143.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:30:03 a few meters and you are no longer in Hamburg 19:30:05 ;-) 19:32:20 we should try at the next meeting to get more local Lisp people onto the map 19:33:15 -!- fihi09`` [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:34 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-1-237.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:37:39 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:34 ok, a lone dot has been added to the "middle of nowhere" in U.S. 19:39:28 In an effort to fill in more places, I remembered a site that I had seen several months back, but it appears to be defunct now. 19:39:42 The closest I could find was: http://lispbr.blogspot.com/ 19:40:26 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 19:41:20 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:20 Fare: are you here? 19:42:37 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-253.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:43:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:43:51 systemtap is enormous amount of fun 19:44:08 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:47 tcr: yes 19:48:01 how may I help? 19:48:11 minion: systemtap? 19:48:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``systemtap''. 19:50:34 Fare, systemtap is the old linux kernel tracing mechanism iirc, it is being deprecated for ftrace 19:50:47 Fare: I'd like to run the test suites of my projects on different implementations, and I really want to do that from within my REPL. Basically an :implementation keyword to ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM which can could be :all. 19:51:15 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:51:33 Fare: Does cl-build provide a canonicalized wrapper to invoke implementations? 19:51:38 tcr: gwking used to do something like that 19:51:41 sorry I mean cl-launch 19:51:51 minion: tell tcr about asdf-status 19:51:53 tcr: look at asdf-status: ASDF-Status displays the results of ASDF-install-tester. http://www.cliki.net/asdf-status 19:52:20 I've never been able to wrap my head about the maze of gwkingware 19:52:31 I guess it was install-testier I was thinking of 19:52:32 s/about/around/ 19:52:46 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:48 I'll take a look 19:53:32 tcr: Years ago I meant to extend it to run asdf:test-op, but never got around to it. 19:53:34 badipod_ [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 19:54:23 sellout: If you come around it in due time, you 19:54:25 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:54:26 'll be my hero! 19:54:32 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:47 heh :) 19:54:56 Didn't your mother teach you to finish the things you start? 19:55:26 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:30 nyquist` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:56:37 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-1-253.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:57:01 tcr: Ah, to have infinite time! 19:58:30 the infinite time is the easy part .... it's just losing all that mass first... that's hard..... 19:58:32 c|mell, it's not "old", they are different -- systemtap has a DSL, ftrace doesn't, for example 19:58:35 I'm pretty sure if you go off from irc for a week, the delta on time would be enough :) 20:00:33 c|mell: !!! 20:00:51 c|mell: finally I find you in this channel (unlucky you) 20:01:05 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:01:26 /whois c|mell, that thou art mindful of him? 20:02:42 Krystof: he wrote manardb 20:02:58 Krystof: and I was trying to get that running, but failed to do so 20:04:08 Hmmm, that manardb description looks interesting. 20:04:42 tcr: if you mean cl-launch, then the answer is yes 20:04:47 Wait, ASDF has a fancy launchpad bug tracker or so I heard. Time to fill that with. 20:04:50 clbuild, I dunno, probably. 20:04:55 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:00 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-6-186.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:04 Fare: I meant cl-launch 20:05:24 oh wait, the canonical wrapper is from the shell command-line 20:05:24 serichsen: it does, yet I wanted to ask some questions about it (why not rucksack), how to implement a general search, and how to get the thing running (especially that last one) 20:05:37 but that's only a trivial run-program away from your REPL 20:06:02 note that xcvb-master implements this run-program, but currently only really supports SBCL, CLISP, CCL. 20:06:18 maybe trivial-run-program is better here. 20:06:29 Fare: Ideally you'd keep track of the options etc with some sexp, and generate the shellscript from that 20:06:33 or just asdf:run-shell-command 20:06:48 tcr: cl-launch keeps track of the options, etc. 20:07:00 Yeah but I think in shellscript? 20:07:25 yes, but run-program gives you the interface 20:07:39 xcvb also has the cl-launch "database" in xcvb/lisp-invocation 20:07:47 if you care to use it. 20:08:22 serichsen: clearly all comparisons whose implicit judgment is "sbcl is 2-10x faster than allegro on this code" have to be applauded 20:08:46 Krystof: the speed is not my concern at the moment 20:10:08 Fare: Nice 20:10:11 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:10:57 tcr, if you think xcvb/lisp-invocation deserves its own library, I could make a separate .asd to load it. 20:11:19 Dunno I think it should be slurped into ASDF 20:11:41 I would like to have a "persistency db" that is not an external process, and using which is mainly putting a :metaclass in my defclasses 20:11:56 tcr, what about code duplication? 20:12:07 tcr: I think ASDF should be (eventually) replaced by XCVB, but oh well. 20:12:37 Fare: (You know, my annoyances with asdf make me think that, too) 20:12:40 serichsen, what if your current process crashes? 20:12:43 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:59 Fare: in the other case, what if my db process crashes? 20:13:11 I think ASDF was great when it came out, but it's time to retire it. 20:13:32 Fare, what's the status on XCVB with loading into a running image? 20:13:38 serichsen, which process do you develop most actively in the most crash-prone way? 20:13:53 Adlai, it was running great last time I checked. 20:14:05 Fare: anyway, my reason for not wanting an external process is ease of deployment. 20:14:07 I probably should add that to my regression test-suite, though. 20:14:14 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.216.183] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 20:14:27 Fare, good to know... that adds to my willingness to try XCVB out soon 20:14:30 serichsen, makes sense. Which persistence solutions fit the bill? 20:15:16 the regression test suite was painful to write, but a huge step forward. I found a bug I introduced earlier in ADG that broke a2x... oops! 20:15:58 (or rather, caused dependency info to be dropped on the floor after being expensively collected) 20:16:10 Fare: I don't know :) I have been thinking about doing it myself. Perhaps manardb does this. 20:16:25 rucksack doesn't? 20:16:44 I had not heard about that. 20:16:50 I'll look 20:17:21 BKNR does it, but might be lower level than you'd like in its invariant enforcement. 20:17:40 *serichsen* takes notes 20:18:14 thanks for the pointers 20:18:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:21:27 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.159.181.38] has joined #lisp 20:21:40 *manuel_* hears bknr and wakes up 20:22:10 nvoorhies__ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:26 manuel_: you're devving bknr? 20:22:37 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:22:38 -!- nvoorhies__ is now known as nvoorhies 20:22:38 was 20:22:48 i still use it for myself 20:22:54 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-3-17.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:22:56 ah, no job in it anymore? 20:22:58 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:22:58 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has joined #lisp 20:23:07 *madnificent* liked the bknr.datastore to some extent 20:23:21 :} 20:23:36 not doing much in lisp in the last years 20:23:46 manuel_: !!! that's a bad boy !!! 20:24:00 heh, that's how it goes 20:24:04 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:17 can't find work in it, or don't like it that much anymore? 20:25:22 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.49.12] has joined #lisp 20:25:22 -!- badipod_ [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 20:25:23 working on embedded systems, i use it for the website and for the CNC control 20:25:30 but most of my programming is C++ 20:25:40 and java for the user software 20:26:12 poon [i=poon__@12.14.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:26:28 i just have different criterias that lisp doesn't really fit atm 20:26:29 shendaras [n=user@ip68-97-248-188.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:52 manuel_: the embedded part could be somewhat hard :P 20:27:08 manuel_: if it's real-time even more so 20:27:12 wife is calling 20:27:15 good night 20:27:20 good night serichsen 20:28:25 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066411.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["OOOOooooo....x"] 20:31:28 I wondered, what is the lisp equivalent of component-based design? 20:32:55 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 20:32:56 would that be any different in lisp? 20:33:31 it could have some libraries or something supporting it 20:33:32 dlowe: it would be COMPONENT-BASED design :D 20:33:38 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-15-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:33:49 drewc: groan 20:34:27 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 20:39:55 -!- cow-orker [n=user@c541745C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:39:57 -!- coyo [i=alex@144.162.133.68] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 20:40:40 If I defined a class with some slot accessor, call it slot1, and then passed 'slot1 to a function, how could I call the setf version? I tried (funcall `(setf ,x) ...) and variations on that, but I seem to be stumped (or just ignorant). 20:41:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:26 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-083-169.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:42:53 madnificent, what's component-based design? 20:42:58 francogrex [n=user@91.177.151.226] has joined #lisp 20:43:42 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-083-169.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:43:53 shendaras: (fdefinition `(setf ,'foo)) 20:44:43 don't you want ',foo ? 20:44:59 yay 20:45:07 cow-orker [n=user@c541745C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 20:45:14 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:57 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.159.181.38] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:22 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 20:47:48 Fare: it is popularized in the Java/business world. You write pieces of software and they come together at deployment fase. It is what much of Javabeans is about 20:48:12 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-083-169.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:48:29 Fare: it uses stuff like RMI, IIOP, ... 20:50:06 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 20:51:10 oh .. you mean CORBA. 20:51:21 the wikipedia page is unintentionally hilarious 20:51:36 "Java RMI-IIOP [combines] the best features of Java RMI technology with the best features of CORBA technology 20:51:38 drewc: afaik it's a whole range of business terms :P 20:52:06 acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has joined #lisp 20:52:18 I kind of -need- to do it all with enterprise javabeans, and find it to be absolutely rediculous for a masters degree 20:52:38 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 20:52:38 that is to say: they theory is just fine, but I don't think it is correct to force this crap up our ***es 20:54:44 in any case, I was hoping lisp could just hook into the whole story 20:54:55 minion: CORBA? 20:54:56 CORBA: CORBA is the Common Object Request Broker Architecture. http://www.cliki.net/CORBA 20:55:06 minion: CLORB? 20:55:06 CLORB: CLORB is a CORBA ORB that implements the OMG Lisp Language Mapping for CORBA. http://www.cliki.net/CLORB 20:55:38 drewc: I think the whole story requires more than just CORBA 20:55:44 minion: ILU? 20:55:44 ILU: There _is_ ILU for Common Lisp, so why not just link this page to that and to general ILU documents. http://www.cliki.net/ILU 20:56:33 minion: ABCL? 20:56:34 ABCL: ABCL is either Armed Bear Lisp or a family of languages for distributed programming by Akinori Yonezawa. http://www.cliki.net/ABCL 20:56:59 drewc: what do you do in your spare-time? memoriz cliki pages?! (thanks btw :P) 20:57:20 s/memoriz/memorize/ 20:58:15 madnificent: at one point, yes. 21:01:21 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 21:01:23 ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:39 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 21:01:50 fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:27 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.97] has joined #lisp 21:05:01 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-15-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:12 How would you solve dozens of dense tiny (from 1 to 5-10 rows/columns) linear systems, if that was your bottleneck? 21:08:35 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:52 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:09:16 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:09:25 Hi 21:09:25 Sikander, memo from LiamH: I got test-real-radix2 producing plausible, even good, output. No tests yet, but I merged into master and deleted the fast-fourier-transform branch, since it should be usable now without the tests included. 21:09:47 Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 21:09:52 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:02 ... and, I'm just about to do a commit with a few minor changes. 21:10:21 pkhuong: cffi binding to ATLAS perhaps? 21:10:23 :D 21:10:25 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:10:54 pkhuong, well if the systems have fixed coefficients then you can probably often precompile something much faster than a full solver 21:11:17 LiamH: Ah, ok. 21:11:23 ziga`: I'm currently calling out to LAPACK, right, but the overhead from the factorisation must be atrocious. 21:11:43 LiamH: Do you need any forms for the tests? 21:11:54 Sikander: Do a pull and see if you like the output from (test-real-radix2 'double-float 4). 21:11:59 pkhuong: if the matrix is the same, you need only one LU factorization, if that's the case 21:12:12 right, but no. 21:12:16 Modius_ [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:18 Sikander: I need more of the GSL tests. 21:12:40 LiamH: Which ones? 21:12:46 Sikander: but now that we've established test-real-radix2, I think the others should be easier 21:12:59 Sikander: anything other than test-real-radix2 21:13:39 There is a structure however: they're all minors (on the diagonal even) of the same symetric matrix. 21:13:53 So I might be able to hack something up with cramer's. 21:13:55 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:14:05 Sikander: I also need to think of how to do the comparison in lisp-unit. So far, I've come up with subtracting the two vectors and then generating a zero vector for comparison. 21:14:09 pkhuong: what's minors? 21:14:18 LiamH: I see that you still need compare-complex-results 21:14:26 LiamH: Ah 21:14:48 ziga`: take a square matrix, remove column i and row j (or in this case, column i and row i, since that's the only ones I generate). 21:14:59 LiamH: Did you see compare_complex_results? 21:15:03 Sikander: Yeah, I looked at that. 21:15:26 Sikander: I'm not sure what it offers that lisp-unit doesn't already have. If tmh were around I'd ask him. 21:15:36 pkhuong: I see 21:15:56 LiamH: It works just as you describe, with an allowed-ticks parameter. Would be great if lisp-unit has that already, yeah 21:16:30 LiamH: Ok, for now just generate the forms that makes the vectors to compare, and then see how to do the comparison with lisp-unit? 21:16:42 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:43 Sikander: As far as I can tell, our extension to lisp-unit does have that. But there's a lot of complexity in the GSL version I'd like tmh to look over. 21:17:07 Sikander: I think taking the difference and comparing to a zero vector should work. 21:17:10 LiamH: Ok. The test-real-radix2 thing gives good results. I think that's no problem 21:17:28 LiamH: Yeah, that's what compare_complex_results does. 21:17:31 for symetric matrices one can do cholesky decomposition instead LU, cuts the time in half 21:17:55 but I guess you want to avoid lapack somehow 21:18:08 Sikander: I have to go through all the tests that GSL does. I think it tests every length vector from 1 to 99. That seems like overkill to me. 21:18:45 ziga`: any decomposition for such tiny matrices is probably a waste of complexity, especially when I only ever solve for one rhs. 21:19:04 LiamH: Not really 21:19:14 LiamH: The "increment" is * 2. 21:19:29 LiamH: So basically it tests all powers of 2 for the radix2 ones (which makes sense) 21:19:30 pkhuong: you're probably right but I was never taught that there is something better in cases of small matrices 21:19:30 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:50 LiamH: For the non-radix2 ones, yes, it seems overkill 21:20:01 Sikander: Oh. 21:20:33 LiamH: For the non-radix2 ones, you are right. It tests 1 to 99. 21:20:48 ziga`: mostly because tiny matrices don't usually matter, I guess. It's one of those problems that you should make you happy ;) 21:20:49 LiamH: Interestingly, it also tests for strides from 1 to 4 21:20:57 -!- starek [n=mild@unaffiliated/romani] has quit [] 21:21:04 -!- nyquist` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:13 -!- Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-62-231.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 21:21:31 Sikander: I didn't put stride into test-real-radix2, guess I should. 21:21:52 pkhuong: what kind of problem are you solving? 21:22:55 LiamH: Do you want the tests to be exactly the same as the GSL tests? 21:23:08 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-132.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:23:14 Sikander: Not necessarily, but that's a good starting point. 21:24:08 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:12 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:55 hello - can someone direct me to info about single-stepping code with slime? 21:24:58 LiamH: So we _should_ test every length from 1 to 99 for non-radix2? 21:25:40 Shamwow: I've never gotten that to work, but I debug in different ways so I haven't tried very hard. 21:25:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:25:50 Sikander: Sure; on my computer it runs really fast. All the FFT tests complete in a fraction of a second. 21:25:51 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:26:05 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-122-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:26:46 LiamH: Ok, I was just wondering because you mentioned that you think it's overkill 21:27:10 Sikander: Oh, I do, but I'm not opposed to overkill! 21:27:18 :) 21:27:35 Xach: I've got code that looks good to me, but is breaking and I'd like to see the inputs when it breaks 21:28:08 Shamwow: compile it with (debug 3), place a cursor at the relevant frame in the debugger and press 's' 21:28:20 Sikander: I think we have a mistake in forward-fourier-transform-halfcomplex-nonradix2; the default wavetable needs to be made half-complex. I am in the process of changing all these to use make-fft-wavetable. 21:28:20 also do C-h m in debugger mode 21:28:27 Computer [n=Computer@unaffiliated/computer] has joined #lisp 21:28:38 Xach: how does one compile with (debug 3)? 21:28:48 anyone use AutoLISP?> 21:29:08 i am looking for an evquialent to LISP's ceiling function in autolisp 21:29:10 Shamwow: C-u C-c C-c 21:29:18 nyquist` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:29:22 autolisp has fix, but that turnicates instead of roundin gup 21:30:13 LiamH: Ah, yes, I see. You're right. 21:30:19 sz0 [n=sz@94.54.221.183] has joined #lisp 21:30:24 Xach: I'm trying to compile (debug 3) but getting a very "The function DEBUG is undefined." type of error 21:30:45 Sikander: No worries, it's fixed. 21:31:52 what's the difference between 'require' and 'asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op' ' in sbcl? 21:32:14 I understand what asdf does 21:32:39 ziga`: quadratic programming with a very small number of constraints. I'm enumerating the powerset of active constraints for the first order (KKT) optimality conditions (I only solve for stationarity + complementarity, and check if the other constraints are satisfied). I often work with sparse problems with hundreds or thousands of variables, but only a handful of constraints, so I'm hoping to beat other methods like lemke's for m 21:34:06 pkhuong: sounds interesting - though i don't understand really :D 21:34:14 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 21:34:20 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:34:21 pkhuong: is this academia research? 21:34:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:55 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:37:05 ziga`: of course (: I will use these QPs to solve subproblems in an industrial problem, so it's at least indirectly useful. 21:38:04 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:16 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:39:46 LiamH: I noticed that in the test-real-radix2, you fill the array with different values. 21:39:56 LiamH: Different from what GSL does 21:40:00 pkhuong: using lisp for academia research - fun! I can hack lisp only as a hobby.. 21:40:21 Sikander: Really? If you do (reset-urand) it should be the same. 21:40:52 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:40:57 Sikander: though honestly I don't understand what C does when the initial value is wired into the source; when does it reset? 21:41:10 ziga`: my advisor doesn't care what I use to prototype, but presenting numerical results in anything but C, C++ or Fortran is hard, unless all the time is spent in a third-party library. 21:41:26 LiamH: actually, on second thought, I don't understand the test at all (the C code, that is) 21:41:41 -!- blygiss [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 21:41:54 LiamH: It first fills the arrays in a loop, and then overwrites it with fft-signal+real-noise? 21:42:07 Sikander: yes, I noticed that -- bizarre. 21:42:24 LiamH: Is it just a do_nothing_loop or so? 21:42:36 Sikander: seems that way to me 21:42:40 LiamH: Before you know it, there will be a display_bill_rules_message in there... 21:42:56 coyo [i=alex@70.254.188.61] has joined #lisp 21:43:45 pkhuong: which is reasonable if you want to prove an algorithm is faster... but it's a pain to leave lisp and REPL right :) 21:44:18 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:18 does anybody know -does SBCL on windows have threads? 21:44:20 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:44:23 nyquist`` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:44:30 ziga`, no. 21:44:50 ziga`: not really. I like C, I like (my) C++, I don't mind going down to assembly... It would be nice to have autogenerated printers and an REPL, but that's all. 21:44:53 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-179.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:01 those lazy sbcl developers.. :D joking.. unfortunate 21:45:05 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 21:45:09 Greetings. 21:45:17 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:50 Hi tmh, I was just talking about you. 21:46:01 Uh-oh. :-) 21:46:23 pkhuong: C is fine and transperent, I agree, it's the lisp development tools that are great... heck you even have #'disassemble 21:46:33 tmh: There's a comparison of complex vectors that GSL uses for its own tests that seems quite complicated. 21:46:56 pkhuong: you're in computer science? 21:46:59 tmh: I'm thinking what we have in lisp-unit is good enough, but I'm not completely sure. 21:47:09 LiamH: What does it do? 21:47:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:47:41 jenia [n=jenia@modemcable148.172-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:47:53 hi guys 21:47:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:48:15 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:22 Sikander: Do you have the GSL compare_complex you can paste for tmh? I don't have the GSL source expanded here, only at home. 21:48:35 i want to implement a hash table in lisp 21:48:48 ziga`: operations research. 21:48:54 LiamH, tmh: Sure, one sec 21:49:13 does anyone know an example of such an implementation? 21:49:30 LiamH, Sikander: I'm looking at lisp-unit now to refresh my memory. There were a couple approaches I tried. 21:50:22 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:50:22 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-82.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:50:23 pkhuong: I had to google it.. really interesting 21:50:26 minion: tell jenia about genhash 21:50:26 jenia: please see genhash: NET.HEXAPODIA.HASHTABLES This is a Library for generic hash tables. http://www.cliki.net/genhash 21:50:35 Sikander pasted "compare_complex_results (C code) for tmh" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90063 21:50:48 GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 21:51:46 thanks, but since im learning lisp, I want to implement it on my own 21:52:09 i have an understanding of how to do it but there are a few "inconveniences" 21:52:15 tmh: Does that have anything we don't already have? 21:52:15 jenia: you wanted an implementation. That's one. 21:52:43 i meant a source code example, sorry 21:52:56 LiamH: Looking, just to clarify, this isn't just comparing 2 complex numbers, it's comparing 2 arrays of complex numbers, correct? 21:52:57 LiamH, tmh: Basically, it just subtracts the two and sees if the maximum deviation from zero is less than the allowed "ticks" 21:52:58 it is source code. 21:53:12 tmh: Yes 21:53:21 *Sikander* shouldn't answer for LiamH. 21:53:21 Okay 21:53:40 Sikander: that's fine, that's the answer I was going to give. 21:53:46 :D 21:55:18 oh okay, thank you my friend 21:55:40 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-82.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:19 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-82.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:57:29 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:53 LiamH, Sikander: Ok, lisp-unit is slightly different. At the array level, compare_complex_results is using an element-wise infinity norm, which we have in lisp-unit, but the default norm for errors is the taxicab norm. 21:58:05 In lisp-unit. 21:58:47 *Sikander* is too ignorant, so he has to look up what the taxicab norm is. 21:58:53 tmh: OK thanks. It probably doesn't make any real difference; I suspect if there's a failure we're going to see it with either. 21:59:19 Ah, ok 21:59:22 Sikander: Sometimes called "Manhattan", i.e. go in sum on each axis. 21:59:30 Yeah, I know Manhattan 21:59:37 -!- nyquist` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:58 liamh, Sikander: At the element comparison level, compare_complex_results is using a sort-of taxicab norm, while lisp-unit is using a euclidean(2) norm of the relative error. 22:01:08 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:26 LiamH, tmh: we can just use it, and decide what to do if it fails :) 22:01:29 LiamH, Sikander: Wait, compare_complex_results is comparing the ticks. 22:01:47 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BCD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:02:13 LiamH, Sikander: That is something like the number of epsilons of error. 22:02:16 tmh: Actually, I was under the impression that it only sees if the maximum ticks is lower than the allowed one 22:02:30 Sikander: That's correct. 22:03:52 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@89.249.195.34] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:03:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:05:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 22:05:10 LiamH, Sikander: Looks like 1 tick = 2*double-float-epsilon 22:05:16 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:05:44 Which happens to be the default in lisp unit, so they are pretty equivalent. 22:05:50 quodlibetor [n=user@146.95.21.236] has joined #lisp 22:05:51 how does one set the type-spec in a loop, i want (loop for element some-type across array.....) 22:05:58 of-type 22:06:02 tmh, Sikander: OK, I'm fairly convinced that lisp-unit will work well enough as-is. 22:06:03 tmh: Great! 22:06:18 I've got to go, talk to you later. 22:06:30 Talk to you later, LiamH 22:06:32 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:52 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:07:07 tmh cheers 22:07:35 -!- sz0 [n=sz@94.54.221.183] has left #lisp 22:07:49 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:59 -!- GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:43 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:15 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229240035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:13:58 -!- nyquist`` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:17 Sikander: Hmm, are you using the master branch or the expanded-interface branch of lisp-unit? 22:14:50 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:56 tmh: Uh... uh... ... I'm not sure. I'm working on GSLL, so whatever GSLL uses :) 22:15:18 *Sikander* is new to lisp-unit 22:15:25 Sikander: Oops, I'm pretty sure you're probably using the master branch, it doesn't have all of the stuff I just described. 22:15:40 I need to merge that stuff into the master. 22:16:20 tmh: LiamH told me that... As far as I can tell, our extension to lisp-unit does have that. But there's a lot of complexity in the GSL version I'd like tmh to look over. 22:16:40 tmh: Is GSLL using its own branch? 22:17:16 Sikander: No, it should be relying on what is available in git. 22:17:34 tmh: ok 22:17:38 Sikander: If I update my copy of GSLL, will it reflect what you guys are working on? 22:17:53 tmh: Yes. everything is merged in master now 22:18:49 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:19:19 Sikander: Ok, let me get my copy up-to-date, test it against the expanded-interface branch and make sure nothing blows-up, then'll I'll merge the lisp-unit branches for good measure. 22:19:20 stephe00102 [n=user@5acb0599.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:27 my copy of GSLL, that is. 22:19:55 ok, thanks 22:20:12 ls 22:20:33 -!- stephe00102 [n=user@5acb0599.bb.sky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:21:03 stephenry [n=user@5acb0599.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:07 Jarvellis [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 22:26:43 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@146.95.21.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:38 Q: Re: alists --> can the key to an alist be a list? such as: (('(a b) . 1) ('(c d) . 2) ... etc) in order to retrieve a value using (assoc '(a b) alist)?? 22:27:46 Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-084-113.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:28:00 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:28:45 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-220-234.net.novis.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:29:10 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 22:29:25 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-083-169.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-1-237.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:29:49 TR2N [i=email@89-180-154-183.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 22:30:46 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [No route to host] 22:31:16 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:16 Sikander: Do I need FSBV for the unit testing? 22:32:44 tmh: Not for what we were working on just now 22:32:50 (as far as I know) 22:33:05 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 22:33:10 answered my own question - just have to (assoc .... :test #'equal) 22:33:19 Sikander: But in general? I'm getting an error when ASDF tries to compile the MKSA constants. 22:33:31 tmh: ? Hold on 22:34:11 tmh: You should be able to compile without fsbv. some functions won't work for certain types, but compilation of gsll should succeed. 22:34:16 Lemme try 22:34:22 -!- Jarvellis is now known as Elench 22:34:45 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.151.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:57 tmh: What is the error? 22:35:03 Sikander: I'll paste 22:35:54 tmh pasted "MKSA error for Sikander" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90067 22:36:04 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Nantes-117-3-17.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:37:21 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:37:33 maybe I need to update CFFI? 22:38:27 tmh: Yeah, that's probably the problem. FSBV has nothing to do with mksa 22:38:42 mksa just defines a bunch of constants (via cffi) 22:39:02 Sikander: I've got 40 patches for CFFI. Been a while. :-) 22:39:04 tmh: And I just checked, compilation without fsbv should succeed 22:39:13 Woo 22:39:25 tmh: So then that's most likely the problem :) 22:42:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 22:48:07 Sikander: Ok, TOTAL: 1589 assertions passed, 11 failed, 1 execution errors. 22:48:44 Which tests should I focus on? 22:49:21 Hmm, I think I need to start my lisp image again. 22:49:31 tmh: I don't think that the tests are implemented as "tests" yet. We were working on the fast fourier transforms. See fast-fourier-transforms/example.lisp 22:50:22 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:51:25 tmh: The function test-real-radix2 in that file produces two vectors that need to be compared. I'm not sure what LiamH had in mind, but that's what the gsl test does: it compares the results of that function 22:53:49 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:40 -!- Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-084-113.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:57 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 22:55:34 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:36 Sikander: I have to go in a minute, I'll be back later tonight. 22:55:59 tmh: Well, I'll probably be asleep then. But I'm sure LiamH will be back then. 22:56:02 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:56:12 Sikander: Ok, I'll coordinate with him, then. 22:56:26 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:27 tmh: Great. Thanks 22:58:10 Sikander: Heh, ran the tests on a fresh image -> TOTAL: 1600 assertions passed, 12 failed, 0 execution errors. 22:58:32 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:42 Weird. Did it have something to do with cffi? 22:59:28 Sikander: Not really sure how I managed that, I'll verify with LiamH that those 12 failed tests are expected and then merge the lisp-unit branches. 23:00:29 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:07 Sikander: Then, if you want to best approximate compare_complex_complex, wrap the float-equal tests with a let form setting *measure* to :infinity. 23:01:17 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-134-7-235.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:01:27 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-1-237.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:01:31 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 23:01:44 tmh: Ok, I'll have a look, thanks 23:02:18 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:16 I'll be back later. I never even got to the original question that prompted me to log in here. :-) 23:05:38 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:20 heheh... 23:06:38 me neither, jumped onto gsll the moment I got in 23:08:54 fe[nl]ix: therep? 23:09:28 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-132.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:42 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-180.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:09:44 yes 23:10:25 The launchpad thing seems to have gotten traction for ASDF. 23:12:30 excellent 23:14:53 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 23:17:37 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:29 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:19:45 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-220-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:59 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:15 Anybody here using a mac 23:21:39 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:22:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:47 wedgeV [n=wedge@74.73.36.164] has joined #lisp 23:23:00 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:23:03 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:23:07 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:29 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:32 Yes 23:25:52 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:25:53 How do you go about installing lisp libraries for it? I'm having a lot of difficulty 23:26:17 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:30 Sikander: does GSL's comparison of DFT with FFT results look like a satisfactory test to you? 23:26:32 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:53 I've been using SBCL + ASDF most of the time. The files end up in .sbcl 23:27:21 Haven't played around with other options on the Mac much. What problems are you seeing? 23:28:23 LiamH: I haven't looked at their dft implementation, but assuming that is correct, it should be a good test. 23:28:41 Nothing in particular really, I bought the Practical Common Lisp and I've been trying to get the examples to build. 23:29:09 I know that asdf-install is the thing to use, but I just thinking there's gotta be an easier way 23:29:26 Sikander: OK, it just seems a little dubious to compare one of their routines against another, instead of a known-fixed result. I.e., they could both break in the same way, and you wouldn't know it. 23:29:41 minion: tell stephenry about clbuild 23:29:41 stephenry: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 23:30:25 LiamH: I think the DFT is the normal, slow, naieve approach, whereas the FFTs that they expose are implementations of well-known algorithms 23:30:32 stephenry: I'd only modify clbuild.conf to make it use CCL instead of SBCL, though that's your choice 23:30:34 LiamH: In other words, the DFTs are too slow to actually use 23:30:47 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp180.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:30:58 Sikander: OK. 23:31:07 stephenry: also, support for asdf-install is rather shaky in places 23:31:27 LiamH: I'm putting the stride into the tests... 23:31:30 I don't have darcs on my system becuase I cannot find a port for GHC 23:31:34 LiamH: but arrive at a disturbing issue: 23:32:02 LiamH: Wait, maybe not 23:32:10 I've been meaning to look at clbuild myself... Haven't run into enough grief with ASDF to make it vital. Most of the problems I've run into recently are because of FFI assumptions about library names, locations & contents that aren't true on the Mac. 23:32:15 LiamH: My memory is so bad... let me check first before I say silly things 23:32:41 LiamH: Yes, a disturbing issue. 23:32:44 :D 23:33:00 LiamH: The size of a vector in GSL already includes its stride. 23:33:24 LiamH: So if you don't want to expose n in the functions but you do want to expose stride, you have to divide the size by the stride. 23:33:40 divide the actual size of the array by the stride 23:36:01 LiamH: Ah, you just didn't do that for discrete, I see 23:36:22 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-179.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 23:37:58 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 23:38:47 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:43 -!- acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has quit ["leaving"] 23:42:00 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:35 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 23:42:40 *Fare* include xcvb-master in his regression test suite, and of course finds (and fixes) regressions. 23:42:45 asdfasd [i=email@89.180.146.13] has joined #lisp 23:43:13 oh my god, I haven't started working on foreign objects in XCVB... 23:43:39 Fare, what are foreign objects? 23:43:50 .o files 23:44:04 that you might want linked into your standalone executable... 23:44:14 or dynamically loaded 23:44:35 Sounds cool! 23:44:54 of course, my full test suite fails miserably on some installation path issues... 23:45:49 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:46:08 garslo [n=user@99.54.133.82] has joined #lisp 23:47:33 LiamH: Hmmm, stride and size don't seem to have consistent behaviour in the current implementation 23:48:16 SimonAdameit [n=simon@d187125.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 23:48:57 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@74.73.36.164] has quit [] 23:49:18 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:04 *Shamwow* is looking for a good tutorial on using (not installing) asdf for managing packages and dependencies 23:50:38 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 23:50:40 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-116-45.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:50:58 <_3b> minion: tell Shamwow about xach-asdf 23:50:58 Shamwow: look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 23:51:13 <_3b> Shamwow: did you see that already? 23:51:18 minion: I've been through that, but need something more in-depth 23:51:19 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 23:51:35 oh... hah, _3b: read above :) 23:52:09 <_3b> any specific problems you are having? 23:52:26 *_3b* doesn't know of any other resources aside from the manual and the cliki page 23:52:35 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-122-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:52:40 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.64] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:53:01 _3b: I'd like to get everything set up such that I can break my project apart into several files, load up slime and do a (require 'project) and have everything taken care of such that I can immediately start calling functions from it 23:53:07 Shamwow, look at xcvb/hello :) 23:53:24 however... When I do that it doesn't load up all the dependencies and starts coughing 23:53:37 <_3b> did you list the dependencies in the .asd? 23:53:38 -!- stephenry [n=user@5acb0599.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:49 That's the problem - I'm not sure if I'm doing it right 23:54:02 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:54:29 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@80.202.254.154] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:30 if I have the files a, b, c... and the dependency is a->b->c, so a depends on b, etc. 23:54:35 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-154-183.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:54:47 -!- asdfasd is now known as TR2N 23:54:50 then do I have to list :file "a" :depends-on ("b" "c") 23:55:02 Shamwow: that's one option. 23:55:07 or can I just do ("b") and have b list c? 23:55:18 Shamwow: that's another option. 23:55:23 *_3b* usually just uses :serial t 23:55:33 Shamwow: you can even have :serial t and list them in order. for small projects it doesn't matter much. 23:55:58 Xach: I'm still not sure what that means... could you give an example? 23:56:17 asdfasd [i=email@89-180-146-13.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 23:56:47 Shamwow: (asdf:defsystem #:shamwow :serial t (components ((:file "a") (:file "b") (:file "c"))) or something like that. 23:56:54 Shamwow: google code search should turn up real examples. 23:57:33 Xach: the :serial implies a->b->c? 23:58:04 <_3b> :serial t says later files depend on all preceding files 23:58:18 LiamH: It's time for me to call it a night. I'm "rectifying" the stride and size problem. If I have something, I'll push it to master. 23:58:29 <_3b> (so i think you want the listed in the reverse order for your example) 23:58:56 Goodnight 23:59:02 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to sleep..."] 23:59:34 _3b: oh... that's cool!