00:00:03 BatWing: I'm curious what it would all be good for :) 00:00:23 hmm, I (just ;-) wrote an editor. was planning to tell you about it, but no time today :-/ 00:00:23 scime, make it easy to begin writing simple programs wherever you are 00:00:28 sellout: I'm curious, why'd you drop emacs/slime? 00:00:50 BatWing: But you could just as well just fire up notepad.exe there in windows. and LOAD it into your lisp 00:00:50 BatWing: that's what I have my netbook before. 00:00:52 er 00:00:52 for 00:00:56 except without the 'simple' part. 00:01:18 scime, yeah, except notepad++ at least please 00:01:27 or rather, notepad++ portable 00:01:35 <_3b> or just run wierdx and connect to an emacs on the server :p 00:01:36 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:01:36 BatWing: well I dunno. I've not used any of 'em. Why not just use emacs? 00:01:50 emacs runs in windows I think? 00:02:08 yep 00:02:16 I've helped set up emacs+slime environments in the past 00:02:24 on win32 00:02:32 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:29 It's not my computer 00:03:32 i have no laptop 00:03:37 well you can install i, I'm sure. 00:03:38 am away from home 00:03:41 if you could install CCL 00:03:51 hvaing to borrow somebody else's windows vista machine, with no administrative privileges 00:03:54 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.217.83] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:04:06 so i can't install anything. 00:04:16 and i shouldnt need to anyway. The vast, vastmajority of windows software ought to be portable. 00:04:16 so stick emacs+slime+ccl on a USB stick 00:04:17 I was not aware that you needed admin privs to install emacs. 00:04:19 <_3b> emacs runs fine from any dir i think 00:04:31 emacs doesn't give a shit about the registery, program files, etc. 00:04:32 Ralith, trying to figure out how to do that now 00:04:40 same way you'd do any emacs setup 00:04:47 except for some site-lisp.el frobbery 00:05:00 BatWing: I'm confused as how "installing" somehow makse things less portable. 00:05:21 BatWing: if you want to run software, you install it. Makes sense to me. 00:05:30 schme, most installers require administrative privileges on the windows machine in order to run 00:05:46 Ralith, to answer your question "What's with...": this is the same question from the same person :| 00:05:50 whereas unzipping an ARCHIVE doesn't 00:05:53 <_3b> having directories with spaces in the name complicates things though :/ 00:05:58 Adlai: oh :P 00:06:09 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:06:15 it's one of those stupid arbitrary distinctions Microsoft has made which the rest of the world is just expected to live with 00:06:15 BatWing: well that's a windows issue there. 00:06:21 yes it is 00:06:36 except I don't expect anyone on ##windows to be familiar with lisp at all 00:06:38 BatWing: so either you install emacs and use that there slime, or you just use notepad. 00:06:39 Wow, improvements in ECL's MOP! 00:07:04 BatWing: dunno why they have to be familiar with it. You already had ccl runnning. 00:07:24 life sure is hard 00:07:44 schme, sry just not familiar with the tools. i wasn't even sure what emacs WAS until today 00:07:56 google is your friend 00:08:01 yeah 00:08:32 *Adlai* would say "Ed, man! !man ed", but it seems that man(1) isn't your friend... 00:08:42 no ed on windows I think 00:08:43 <_3b> http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/ <- emacs .zips, assuming you can run win32 stuff 00:08:45 edlin maybe 00:09:03 schme, no man(1) either :D 00:10:02 what a horrid place it must be 00:10:04 eno__ [n=eno@70.137.163.164] has joined #lisp 00:10:32 Ralith: I work at Clozure, so it's partially dogfood. I can't really recommend the IDE too much until we have paredit over there ;) 00:10:47 ah. 00:10:49 <3 paredit 00:10:49 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:59 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:51 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:15:37 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:15:48 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:55 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:01 -!- ziga`` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:53 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:25:23 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 00:25:49 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 00:26:19 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@EM114-48-186-33.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:27:33 hop_scheme [n=quassel@c-68-47-239-155.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:33 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:54 slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:55 ppc cntlzw 00:30:56 Count Leading Zeros Word: http://www.nersc.gov/vendor_docs/ibm/asm/cntlzw.htm#idx327 00:31:39 I wonder why specbot doesn't work in #concatenative 00:33:45 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:37:50 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-15-143.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:38:46 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-15-143.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:01 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:53:50 Anyone on Google Wave? 00:55:04 yes 00:57:23 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:43 <_3b> hmm, wave could make an interesting interface to a web based repl/ide thing 00:58:47 it would seem to me that google wave rly needs a lisp API 01:00:43 -!- BatWing [i=44228e44@gateway/web/freenode/x-ggzjnhczhzmanlpv] has quit [] 01:00:56 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 01:01:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:02:04 golu3990 [n=shitikan@202.3.77.167] has joined #lisp 01:02:08 -!- golu3990 [n=shitikan@202.3.77.167] has left #lisp 01:02:10 golu3990 [n=shitikan@202.3.77.167] has joined #lisp 01:02:14 -!- golu3990 [n=shitikan@202.3.77.167] has left #lisp 01:04:23 sellout: yeah 01:04:25 jsnell: I'm pfeilgm@googlewave.com ... is Luke on there? 01:06:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:10 hehe is the open web not good enough ... 01:06:17 -!- C-o-r-E [n=nash@modemcable194.43-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:06:46 dont understand the craze behind google wave 01:06:58 sellout: yes 01:07:55 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:08:35 -!- slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 01:09:16 sellout: I don't think he is 01:11:08 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:12:02 -!- kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:12:02 Google Wave would IMHO work much better with native, desktop client 01:14:47 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:24:43 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@87.106.78.92] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:25:13 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 01:27:17 google wave is like gmail, but doesn't support anything 01:27:53 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 01:33:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:46 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:25 -!- bgs100 is now known as no_i_am 01:39:36 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-169-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:52 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-169-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:40:32 -!- no_i_am is now known as bgs100 01:44:47 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 01:50:36 dostoyev1ky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 01:51:44 hi, any recommendation for escaping spaces and such for a pathname to use for something like (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/foo" (list filename)) 01:52:21 egn: Why would you need to escape the spaces? 01:52:55 doesn't run-program already escape them? 01:53:00 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 01:53:01 oh, does it? 01:53:23 nyef: I could just " it, but I want it to escape special chars too 01:53:36 wrap in double quotes* 01:53:37 stassats: Why would it need to? 01:53:47 <_3b> is there some slime setting to make it not break when a C-c C-c prints a lot? 01:54:08 Space escaping is for when you're dealing with a shell which attempts to use them to break up the arguments into separate strings. 01:54:36 nyef: ok, better "doesn't run-program already handle this?" 01:55:00 And the answer still is "no, because there's no issue to handle at this level". 01:55:06 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:49 well, meaning you don't need to do anything yourself 01:56:52 Right, it's not an issue. 01:57:24 But it's not not an issue because of special handling in run-program, it's not an issue because the issue is introduced at a higher level. 01:58:00 right, execve doesn't need escaping 02:02:03 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 02:02:49 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:03:46 It's a shame that 'getopts' is still in 1992 and doesn't support long options. 02:06:47 -!- hop_scheme [n=quassel@c-68-47-239-155.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:49 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:45 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-20-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:51 sellout: herep 02:09:55 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:10:15 -!- felideon_away is now known as felideon 02:10:30 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:00 gigamonkey: hey what's up 02:11:17 chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 02:11:20 Yo. I'm kicking it NaNoWriMo style. sellout is my writin buddy. 02:11:23 writing. 02:11:40 I need to prod him into writing some words. 02:11:54 *felideon* checks out that site 02:11:57 gigamonkey: who were you looking forward to interviewing most for Coders at Work? :P 02:12:26 schopenhauer [n=schopenh@p1222-ipbf405kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:12:34 chrisdone: hard to say. It's cool to get to sit down with Knuth. 02:12:52 And I'm really glad I interviewed Bernie Cosell. 02:13:36 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 02:13:48 hmm, 50,000 words? 02:14:11 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8348909.stm"] 02:14:20 Yeah. It's a fair bit. But doable. It's basically an exercise in lowering your standards until it's doable. 02:15:44 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:17:20 gigamonkey: My copy of C@W arrived while I was out yesterday. I've been opening it at random over the course of the day and reading bits. 02:17:40 Good thing I spent all the time putting those interviews in order. ;-) 02:17:53 Heh. 02:18:29 I'll probably sit down and read it properly at some point, but my read queue is already insane. 02:19:01 Yeah. As long as it's made it off the 'buy queue' I'm happy. ;-) 02:19:02 gigamonkey: ah, very good. I'm up to SPJ currently. it's such an exciting read; it seems like every one has something that they are really focused on and preach like a lesson from vast experience, like scalability, code cleanliness, unit testing, etc. great, fresh original book, as usual! =) 02:20:27 chrisdone: Glad you're liking it. Feel free to post a review on Amazon. I'm still clawing my way back from two 1-star reviews from people who either hated it despite not reading it just because Spolsky said something nice about it or were mad about the Kindle price. 02:21:20 (There were a couple of people who also gave it 1-star but at least they seem to have read it and really hated it.) 02:22:21 Deep [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:49 *felideon* hasn't read c@w in a while :( i think i'm still at ch.3 02:24:31 gigamonkey, I've also been enjoying it 02:24:32 gigamonkey: Spolsky's post introduced me to it =) I will definitely review it when I've finish it! I find it surprising how anyone could dislike a book packed with real world insight 02:24:59 I'm reading it pretty slowly, because it's a good read so I want it to last 02:25:44 Adlai: that sounds better than I what I said. Same reason here. :) 02:26:27 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:46 I'm past ch3 though... just finished the Joe Armstrong interview 02:28:04 Do you jokers have any idea how many times *I've* had to read that book. :-P 02:28:52 Adlai: ah, you're on the same chapter as me! SPJ. I liked Joe Armstrong's quote "You wanted a banana but what you got was a gorilla holding the banana and the entire jungle." 02:28:56 did you like it? 02:29:22 stassats: Great book. Would read again. 02:29:31 gigamonkey, yes but you have The Definitive Complete and Unabridged version... 02:29:48 ie all Unrated Uncensored and Uncut Interviews 02:29:57 X-Scale` [i=email@89.180.165.99] has joined #lisp 02:30:01 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-222-84.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:32 hehe 02:30:39 did someone have to be censored? 02:31:33 Well, I removed about 50% of the swearing from Fitzpatrick's chapter. 02:31:43 "coders at work, the lost tapes" 02:32:11 But I had about 3x as much material as ended up in the book. So lots of things were cut. 02:32:19 gigamonkey: I have some errata. I see there's the list on the site -- do I just email them to you? I have to put a sticky note on a page when I see a typo because I'm a freak like that 02:32:35 -!- ContraSF [i=email@89.180.141.118] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:47 gigamonkey: Heh, I did notice a lot of cursing in there. 02:32:48 chrisdone: Please do email them. I need to send errata to Apress in the next couple of weeks for a 3rd printing. 02:33:00 gigamonkey: ok, excellent 02:33:09 gigamonkey: 3rd printing already? 02:33:34 Apparently they did a hurry-up 2nd printing which is exactly the same as the 1st printing to keep up with orders. 02:33:45 ah gotch 02:33:53 So 11,000 total between the 1st and 2nd. I don't know how many they're planning for the 3rd. 02:34:36 gigamonkey: did you see that blog post on royalties at Pragmatic Programmer? 02:35:34 Recent? 02:36:24 yes 02:36:45 http://pragdave.blogs.pragprog.com/pragdave/2009/10/pragmatic-bookshelf-royalty-rates.html 02:37:52 Nope. Looking at it now. 02:39:58 Interesting. 02:40:38 Go for it. And please have them send me my referral fee on your next book. You have my address. 02:41:01 Heh. 02:41:10 Oh, speaking of errata... I've been noticing places where there's no space after a period or even one place where an adjacent comma and a space were transposed. 02:41:35 The basic damage patterns could possibly be found via regexp. 02:42:03 nyef: Grrrr. Most of those were introduced by Apress in the penultimate round of edits/formatting and fixed by me in the ultimate round. Unfortunately they seem to have printed their version of many, if not all chapters. 02:43:11 felideon: Unfortunately there are two variables: royalty rate and number of books sold. 02:43:43 Prags may pay a better rate but if O'Reilly is way better at marketing their books (and from what I've heard they are) you may still do better with O'Reilly. 02:43:58 gigamonkey: next time, I guess you'll be publishing by yourself? 02:44:21 p_l: Dunno. Depends what kind of book it is. 02:44:28 Lulu.com? 02:45:08 Actually Booksurge seems like the way to go--you get 30% of list on all Amazon sales and 10% or something on all other sales. 02:45:18 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:37 (Even the 40% from Prags is presumably 40% of what they sell the book to to distributors which is something like half of the list or less.) 02:45:51 gigamonkey: Interesting, hadn't heard of it. 02:46:16 hmmm... Lulu.com looks interesting 02:46:35 It's like lulu.com but affiliated with Amazon. Thus the better rate for books sold on Amazon. 02:47:05 Xach: MSLUG meeting on the 17th; Should I forward the announcement somewhere? 02:47:55 gigamonkey: I sent three errata... there were several more, but I guess when I saw those ones I didn't have a pen and paper at my bedside and didn't want to fold the pages =) 02:47:58 gigamonkey, felideon: thanks for those publishing companies. Suddenly I've got less to fear about certain projects of mine :D 02:48:28 p_l: Awesome. I'll look forward to them! 02:49:28 felideon: heh. Long time before I get to finishing them, even more before publication (right now I've got issues like "where the hell I'm going to sleep today") 02:49:42 chrisdone: thanks. 02:49:50 Maybe once I'll write a book on Uncommon Web, and it'll just be all my blog posts slapped together---kinda like Spolsky did. 02:50:10 -!- X-Scale` is now known as TR2N 02:50:22 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:50:32 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-71-92.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:54 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:20 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@118.210.34.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:20 p_l: I hope you're not in the west, so you have more time to resolve that minor issue. :) 02:55:20 minion: memo for sellout: better get cracking on NaNoWriMo writing buddy. Your word count seems a little stalled. 02:55:20 Remembered. I'll tell sellout when he/she/it next speaks. 02:55:30 deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.167.96.168] has joined #lisp 02:55:31 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:34 Okay, folks. Gotta go attend to my own word count. Later. 02:55:42 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:56 felideon: UTC :> 02:56:19 gigamonkey: Later. 02:56:35 so it's 0250 and I'm not going to sleep tonight. Joys of homeless life 02:57:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:58:13 Hmm, I guess I had it the other way around. 02:58:31 Thinking it was already morning or something. Where are you now? 03:00:09 United Kingdom 03:00:19 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:01:12 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:01:14 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 03:01:18 No, I figured that much. I meant physically. What's open at 3:00AM with Internet access? 03:02:01 mobile internet? 03:02:18 -!- deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.167.96.168] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:02:42 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:02:47 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-15-143.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:03:15 people, i'm newbie in lisp but i have to do a homework to my university. 03:03:45 good luck then! 03:04:36 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:50 felideon: I'm squatting a building at uni :P 03:05:18 I would like to this: a person think in a object...then the aplication make some questions and guess what the person thought. Is it possible using LISP? Is it so hard? 03:05:40 <_3b> Lisp is turing complete, so it is as possible as in any other language 03:05:42 fedel, you mean "Twenty Questions"? 03:05:55 <_3b> doesn't sound too hard though 03:06:22 _3b: well, depends on the exact design requirements. 03:07:07 Adlai, yes!...but not so complex. 03:07:08 Generating an optimal (in worst-case depth) decision graph is NP-hard, iirc. 03:07:40 <_3b> well, doing it /well/ might be harder :) 03:08:38 humm..the first idea was not objects, it was my classmates... 03:09:18 <_3b> the program probably doesn't need to care what it is asking about 03:09:31 one of them would think and another one and ansewring some questions. 03:09:50 Adlai, is it possible? 03:10:24 thinking classmates? no way! 03:10:31 pkhuong: sure! what's it about? 03:11:17 Xach: "developing high-performance network servers in Lisp", Vladimir Sedach (http://carcaddar.blogspot.com/, http://vsedach.googlepages.com/index.html) 03:11:23 fedel, yes, you need to come up with a representation of the "knowledge" the program has, and be able to add to it when you guess incorrectly. This is described in some books... 03:12:02 Tuesday nov 17th, 7pm. Pavillon Andre-Aisenstadt (2920 chemin de la Tour) room #3195, Universite de Montreal. 03:12:09 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-20-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:15 pkhuong: wow, nice! 03:12:41 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-7-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:14:03 pkhuong: is there an url to that info somewhere? 03:14:06 pkhuong: a mailing list post? 03:15:38 -!- ve [n=a@94.193.95.252] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:16:02 Xach: 03:16:03 Adlai, Do you recomend a book or place on the internet? keywords to search in google? 03:16:13 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:16:31 Thanks to Google Analytics, there seems to be a pocket of Lispers in Deerfield Beach, FL. To my surprise of course, I thought I was the only Lisper (wannabe) in FL. 03:17:34 "there can be only one"? 03:17:59 Although, I think that might have something to do with the job post for a Clojure Web Developer in Deerfield. 03:18:06 felideon, you're wrong, you don't know that another lisper people there is in FL. 03:18:18 felideon: ryepup is hardcore in gainesville 03:18:36 fedel, off the top of my head, I have no clue... you basically just want to store a tree of yes/no questions, and when you guess wrong, you ask for a question, and add it to the tree 03:19:34 Xach: ah interesting. I didn't know that. 03:19:48 felideon: gainesville-green.com is a lisp application iirc 03:19:48 eldragon: would you happen to know any more? 03:22:14 Maybe in Gainesvill since there's a good university there. So let me s/FL/SoFL/ 03:23:32 -!- schopenhauer [n=schopenh@p1222-ipbf405kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 03:24:00 felideon, what's the problem of that you're alone? do you need a partner for Paired Programming? 03:24:53 Adlai, it was what I thought =D . Thanks so much 03:25:06 colin_ [n=colin@118-169-43-103.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:44 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@66.201.44.122] has quit [] 03:26:11 eldragon: Not really. The thing is if I were somewhere else where there are meetings and stuff, I could probably learn a lot. 03:26:11 -!- sg [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-csjcqrvhcrqknpez] has quit ["Page closed"] 03:26:13 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:27:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-32-86.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:29:32 felideon, if you wanna to be alone then put your notes everywhere in FL for "Lisper meeting". 03:29:51 call this phone number, etc. 03:31:18 True. I could probably do that now with my Google Voice. Or maybe just do e-mail. 03:36:34 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:46:06 baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 03:55:14 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.109.209] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:56:22 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:57:17 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:58:50 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 03:59:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:08 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:08:51 jfding [n=jfding@123.113.36.93] has joined #lisp 04:18:37 G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.97.127] has joined #lisp 04:18:48 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:21:16 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.95.203] has joined #lisp 04:26:24 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.63] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:26:31 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.6] has joined #lisp 04:27:19 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:55 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:30:51 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:32:04 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:32:54 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:15 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-7-247.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:43 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:38:11 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.165.99] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:42:23 TR2N [i=email@89-180-137-62.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 04:46:03 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-71-92.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:09 -!- baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:49:58 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:29 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:52:56 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-209-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:19 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-179.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 04:54:52 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:00:31 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-233-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:53 fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:02 tobin [n=tobin@74-95-195-137-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:37 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-137-62.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:11 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 05:06:17 Good morning! 05:07:24 -!- tobin [n=tobin@74-95-195-137-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:07:55 beach: morning! 05:09:29 good morning beach 05:09:33 I have a terminology question... 05:09:59 what would you call a function that transformed '(a 1 b 2) into ((a 1) (b 2))? 05:10:18 it's not quite plist->alist, because I'd expect that to give ((a . 1) (b . 2)) 05:11:11 -!- wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:11:25 -!- jfding [n=jfding@123.113.36.93] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:12 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-7-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:42 *_3b* wishes emacs was better at indenting CL code :( 05:18:30 _3b: What is the problem? 05:19:05 _3b: Climacs does a better job, by the way, because it has in incremental LR parser built in. 05:19:08 <_3b> mostly that i have 2 different styles of LOOP indentation in my code 05:19:22 <_3b> yeah, i know... but it doesn't connect to remote lisps, and i crash sncl a lot :p 05:19:27 <_3b> *sbcl 05:19:33 I see, and Climacs doesn't do a good job with LOOP either :( 05:19:50 <_3b> (also it doesn't have git integration, or a few other features i would want) 05:19:54 Adlai: General consensus in my brain is that your query is nonstandard. I've never seen it before. I would, perhaps, call it splitting a list into subsections. 05:20:04 _3b: True. 05:20:53 dralston, true... it's a sort of pairlist-like-thing 05:20:53 *_3b* wonders how hard something like gitk would be to write in mcclim (not that i have time even if it were easy) 05:21:21 eh, not quite pairlist. 05:21:28 _3b, gitk does A LOT. 05:21:34 <_3b> if i had a better diff somewhere in my git workflow, i'd probably just fix indentation as i touched the code 05:21:39 it looks like shit, but it has a lot of nifty features. 05:21:52 <_3b> but i don't like having large blocks reindented, since then i can't see what the actual changes were 05:22:44 Actually, are there any good resources for McClim programming? Or, just the McClim manual? 05:23:50 dralston: There is the CLIM spec and manuals from Franz and Lispworks. McCLIM implements most of the Franz extensions. 05:24:34 Ah, so McClim is basically compatible with Clim? I never knew for certain, which is why I never looked at the original Clim documentation. 05:24:49 <_3b> oh well, guess i'll just leave it as is and worry about it later :p 05:25:01 dralston: There are a few minor things missing, but it is mostly fine. 05:25:22 Excellent. Thanks, beach. :) 05:25:32 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.95.203] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:28 <_3b> hmm, maybe i should just delete that 5kloc file i don't use anymore instead of fixing line endings on that one 05:27:53 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp115.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:06 wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:21 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 05:28:24 good morning 05:28:54 Hello kami- 05:30:22 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:31:13 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-0-74.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:36 redblue [i=star@ppp050.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:36:30 Adlai: I would call that a partition 05:37:39 baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 05:37:58 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-7-247.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:21 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 05:39:32 -!- Deep [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:42:25 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 05:47:54 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.21.49] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:49:28 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:52 -!- baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["leaving"] 05:56:24 TR2N [n=email@89.180.206.188] has joined #lisp 05:57:35 kami-` [n=user@p5B20C004.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:07 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:01:40 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 06:03:37 baddog [n=baddog@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 06:12:08 -!- bandu [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 06:12:25 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 06:20:10 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:57 -!- kami-` is now known as kami- 06:21:12 C-o-r-E [n=nash@modemcable194.43-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:21:59 how do you break a dolist loop? 06:22:50 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:38 C-o-r-E: You can introduce a block and use RETURN-FROM, or you can use LOOP instead of DOLIST. 06:23:44 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 06:24:21 ah it seem a (return) is sufficient 06:24:43 <_3b> yeah, DOLIST has an implicit NIL block 06:24:51 Ah, forgot that. 06:24:55 _3b: Thanks. 06:25:17 <_3b> and a tagbody too, not that that helps here 06:33:02 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:40:03 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:59 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:01 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-170-175.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:49 -!- egoz [n=Egoz@125.163.14.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:48:59 does anybody know which project on common-lisp.net actively uses trac for issue management? 06:49:29 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-28-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:51:45 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-25-201.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:52:39 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:52:40 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-170-175.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:56:03 lake [n=irchon@71.23.101.253] has joined #lisp 06:57:28 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:58:43 -!- lake [n=irchon@71.23.101.253] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:58:58 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-222-84.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:58 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.6] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:14:32 kami-: weblocks uses trac but I dont knwo about the "actively" part 07:14:39 know 07:16:42 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:18:47 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:18:48 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 07:19:03 Madsy^ [n=Madsy@ti0207a340-0474.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 07:20:13 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:22:51 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:38 Harag: thank you 07:23:50 NOP 07:23:57 eish sorry caps 07:24:32 Harag: the weblocks trac is not hosted on common-lisp.net. Thanks, though. 07:24:41 sorry. it is 07:25:13 *kami-* only looked for 'weblocks' and forgot the mandatory 'cl-' :) 07:26:37 Trac tickets can only be created by users with an account. 07:28:11 elephant uses trac aswell 07:30:08 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:31:36 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 07:33:04 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Dead socket] 07:38:27 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp050.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 07:41:49 drewc: ping 07:56:13 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:53 redblue [i=star@ppp041.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:58:19 tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:49 minion: memo for Xach: the munich lisp meeting will take place at tuesday, 10th nov (not 11th) 07:58:49 Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks. 08:00:17 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:00:37 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 08:04:45 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:05:58 fcuk, babel doesn't support shift-jis 08:07:21 anyone knows something that does shift-jis? 08:09:10 sbcl claims to 08:09:19 i tried :shift-jis and :shiftjis 08:09:26 said it wasn't a valid external-format 08:09:41 apropos suggests :shift_jis 08:10:46 I was just wondering upon waking (weird dreams): Why don't the CL folks throw in the towel and join the Scheme folks? With all the Scheme SRFIs, Scheme's feature set looks alot like CL's anyway, except for CLOS. Not trolling - actually wondering. 08:11:21 Krystof, thank you! 08:11:32 <_3b> Summermute66: it doesn't run existing code? 08:11:39 Summermute66, define "throw in the towel" 08:12:00 oh no, not again 08:12:17 Summermute66: doesn't have SLIME? There seems to be less portability between implementations? 08:12:28 please do not feed the troll 08:12:34 Um, well, let the current crop of CL implementations go, port and migrate new coding over to Scheme. 08:13:00 holy fuck 08:13:02 I've nothing against CL - implemented a short lived commercial CL back in the early 1990s. 08:13:19 hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 08:13:26 Not trolling. Just wondering - what keeps CL with CL? That's all. 08:13:33 you want people to port CL code o scheme to appease the scheme community??? 08:13:44 as if that would work 08:13:51 weirdo: as I said, please do not feed the troll 08:13:52 Summermute66: Read Pitman's Lambda The Ultimate Political Party 08:13:58 Krystof, point taken 08:14:09 tcr: will read 08:14:29 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:14:32 The portability issue is a very good one. 08:14:46 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 08:15:08 -!- baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:10 I get the impression that real world portability between implementations is much better than 20 years ago. 08:15:27 i think Data has quite a poker face 08:15:34 *weirdo* reading the KMP paper tcr mentioned 08:17:39 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 08:17:41 Wow, Lisp Pointers '94 - I probably have a dusty copy in my back room somewhere :-) 08:17:44 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 08:18:26 How do the CL folks about the prospects for rsr6, the module system and higher hopes for portability in scheme? 08:20:09 Summermute66, scheme folks boycott it because it's hard to come up with an index this big 08:20:45 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 08:21:15 ;-) I am surprised at the number of crotchety scheme folks for whom "50 page" is the primary quality of a good language standard :-) 08:21:40 Summermute66, a guy i know at UCLA has scheme classes 08:21:48 sorry, CL classes 08:21:54 and there's a FAQ by the guy who teaches it 08:22:15 and... 08:22:20 and he lists around 20 operators (he calls them "constructs") they can use 08:22:31 and there's no FUNCTION or LAMBDA on the list! 08:22:36 or FUNCALL, for that matter 08:22:57 sorry for digression 08:22:59 ok,for CL being a Lisp-2 that is weird 08:23:13 it's not for lisp-2 08:23:22 So he seems to teach CL like it were C or something - no higher order features 08:23:25 lisp-1? 08:23:26 it's for lack of LAMBDA (which is a macro for FUNCTION) 08:23:53 Summermute66, then there's a position in the FAQ which shows how to indent the code 08:24:12 (cond LF (clause.. LF ) LF ) 08:24:15 Um let me guess, it's not Emacs defaults :-) 08:24:40 i thought it was a troll but it's hosted on UCLA and the guy i know has classes with him 08:24:58 and the guy is pretty anti-lulz so he wouldn't make a hoax to fool me 08:25:21 when do you come to your point, or did I already miss it? 08:25:27 whacky - not CL, but Lisp(s) go back so far, we have to imagine that there are folks who view Lisp so many weird ways. 08:25:37 Weird to the modern Lisper 08:26:15 You know, like former APL and Fortran people who adopted Lisp for lord knows what reason article they read :-) 08:26:23 tcr, my point is that i thought UCLA is a serious (state-funded, etc.) university, there's even alan kay doing lectures once in a time 08:27:08 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:27:08 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:27:08 -!- 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08:27:54 And now you cannot hold on that view? 08:28:00 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-209-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.97.127] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-169-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 benny [n=benny@i577A1BAD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 prip [n=_prip@host234-124-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:28:00 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined 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[n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:04 Well, with tenure + age + lack of progress can come all sorts of weird stuff in the CS academic world. 08:28:12 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:26 tcr, perhaps some of the stuff they do is good, but i can't understand why this guy is working there 08:28:31 I don't think UCLA is particularly known for its computer theory department 08:28:53 defvar mileage 08:29:00 UCLA is probably better that most, if not CMU or something. 08:29:58 sepult`` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:14 weirdo: So it seems that his Lisp skills weren't a factor for his grant. 08:30:25 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:41 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-169-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:30:48 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 08:31:12 Anyway, thanks - portability of CL code seems to best "real" answer I got for CL > Scheme(s). Makes sense to me, especially with modern stuff like ASDF and work on a common FFI over the years. 08:31:22 tcr, so he teaches using a language and can't even indent the code correctly 08:31:38 It may surprise you, but only few people know any programming language for real 08:31:53 Perhaps especially in academia :-) 08:31:56 tcr: THAT IS THE REAL TRUTH 08:32:01 well, i'm a newbie, but i know how to indent code 08:32:09 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:26 Summermute66, ffi isn't as important as in scheme or... other languages 08:33:36 I've met so many folks usign language X and they have no real idea what in the hell the language constructs are doing. Like it was all some kind of magic to them. Just for example, I met a guy who thought that C was what we would call a "lazy" evaluation language. Was totally blown away when I explained it was what we would call "strict" 08:33:54 Summermute66, you can load a big library, that takes few minutes to compile on high-end hardware, and never have it use a FFI 08:34:12 even without FFI, CL would have lots of functionality 08:34:13 :-) 08:34:34 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 08:34:51 weirdo: Well, yeah until one is trying to write a portable GUI app using wxWindows or GTK2 :-) 08:35:12 Summermute66, you can use a portable GUI app without using FFI 08:35:21 using the X11 protocol, without FFI 08:35:26 Not to mention the oodles of domain specific libraries written in Fortran and C out there. 08:35:32 reprore__ [n=reprore@EM114-48-72-224.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:35:41 setheus_ [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:48 like SQL client protocol libraries, which were reimplemented in CL 08:35:50 weirdo: now you're just being silly :-) 08:35:54 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:35:56 Summermute66, why? 08:35:59 -!- Jafet1 is now known as aefjt 08:36:03 what makes me silly in your opinion? 08:37:13 99% of the programming humans on the planet will never go near the naked X11 protocol and 2) by "portable" I mean those "not-one-true-religion" platforms like Windoze and Macos. 08:37:18 -!- setheus [n=setheus@70.116.140.134] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:37:21 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:37:31 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 08:38:07 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 08:39:12 1) they don't have to. there's a library that implements a fair chunk of the X11 protocol; enough to write window managers in it. 2) there are easily-portable lisps, written in C with (fsvo) small amount of non-portable cruft 08:39:24 o noes I take back that bit about academia 08:39:55 I have lost karma. 08:40:07 you have certainly been trolled 08:41:58 Summermute66, gb2 #haskell 08:42:32 or /prog/ :) 08:42:41 Not to express prosaic needs (I have few on my current project), but lots of folks need the slider-thingers to look *exactly* like a Mac's on a mac and Windoze on a Win box. Frobby X11 or any other low level graphic api has nothing to do with it. 08:42:52 "frobby" => "Frobbing" 08:43:05 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:43:24 weirdo: don't know IRC jargon for gb2 08:43:31 "go back to" 08:43:41 it's chan jargon, though 08:43:55 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:44:32 Summermute66, no true scotsman 08:44:33 Ok, I'll admit I do think Haskell and ML are cool languages. But then I'm just old and crusty enough (43) to have learned to program on Pascal :-) 08:44:49 Summermute66: people who need exact look can spare the time to play around with FFI, as they need to do the work many times anyway 08:45:55 Not to debate the merits/flaws in wxWidgets latest incarnations, but it's worth a peek if one needs this sort of thing. 08:46:17 why are you attempting to argue with the troll? 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08:46:47 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:46:47 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:46:47 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-29.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:46:47 -!- yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:46:47 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:47:23 Summermute66: Sure, but at the same time I'm pretty sure it doesn't support new graphic model in windows, for example (vector-based with separate display server over shared memory) 08:47:44 Krystof, I think s/argue with/bait/ 08:47:59 Summermute66, you didn't try to make it obvious that you're trolling from #haskell, but eventually mentioned lazy evaluation and the "strict" terminology. "curious newbie" troll archetype doesn't know that 08:48:50 Krystof: give it a rest. what kind of "army regulation" discussion should I engage in to "not be a troll." It's just IRC, after all. 08:49:06 lighterthanair [n=lightert@pool-71-249-97-6.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:17 -!- lighterthanair [n=lightert@pool-71-249-97-6.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:49:22 It's not like I'm asking some bizarre set of incendiary questions - not by a long shot. 08:49:36 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:49:52 trolling would be much more perverse and fun if done long-term (not just many times) 08:50:17 get some cred in a community, release libraries, ask questions, be an authorative source 08:50:23 weirdo: LOL 08:50:31 that's evil 08:50:40 p_l: Yes, any x-platform gui is always going to play catchup, but not necessarily in a way visible to (most) everyday application users. 08:50:57 weirdo: as in Stroustrup-level evil 08:51:14 then "derail" the "community" by posting something slightly off-target and make others ridicule the ones who don't agree troll's outlandish claims 08:51:33 weirdo: better - first create the community :P 08:51:37 I'm not doing any of those things. 08:51:48 p_l, that's L. Ron Hubbard-level evil 08:52:08 hahaha 08:52:36 *p_l* has to remember to take mask and a fedora hat next time he is in Edinburgh... :D 08:53:03 Summermute66, and now you're not making any sense. first you go for "native look for idiots and management", then you say that since something is only visible to a small amount of users it's bad 08:53:06 lrn2troll 08:53:10 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp041.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:53:19 ? 08:53:31 ? 08:54:02 Summermute66: don't worry, weirdo tried to make me go into NERD RAGE for quite a long time before he gave up ^_^ 08:54:44 p_l, truth to be told, i'm not good at it and i admit it 08:54:51 Most software users are "idiots" by our standards,but so what? They buy the commercial software and pay the bills (that's the world i've more or less inhabited for a while now). 08:55:28 i can only troll /newpol/-level users 08:55:29 Summermute66: most software is written with assumption that the user is an idiot and can't get better. It's stunting growth 08:55:31 And they might be good at other cool non-software stuff - like accounting or poll dancing :-) 08:56:40 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:56:57 I my 1970's "Alan Kay"ish hopes that something like pc's will more or less "bring up" mankind a notch, but I'm sadly no longer waitig for it to happen imminently. 08:57:05 Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-19-232.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:57:07 one way to spot an idiot is to see how he's scared about things that surprise him 08:57:16 -!- Madsy^ is now known as Madsy 08:57:45 s/about/of/; like good science-fiction/fantasy books, good movies, lisp, etc. 08:57:54 One way to spot a smart person is that they readily and happily admit what they don't know 08:59:36 redblue [i=star@ppp057.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:00:21 BTW, anyfolks usign CCL (Clozure...) and have a feel for its strengths/weaknesses. On the plus side, I've read that it supports native threads on the the "big three" platforms. 09:00:32 now it's obvious you're trolling 09:00:36 it's SO obvious 09:01:08 Because I'm curious about an actual CL implementation? I'm not all about abstract questions and giggles :-) 09:01:29 Summermute66: CCL is my implementation of choice on Windows, though I prefer SBCL on Linux. I guess I would go with CCL on Mac as well 09:02:02 CCL is a good old former native Mac CL, yes? 09:02:26 it's related to MCL, yes 09:02:32 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has joined #lisp 09:02:56 Summermute66, first migrating CL -> scheme, opinions on R6RS, then CL impls :-) 09:02:59 weirdo: Ron Garret is such a long-term troll 09:03:14 p_l: BTW, CCL/slime is exactly what I have set up on my windoze box right now, but I haven't banged on it nearly hard enough to see if it's more or less stable,etc. 09:03:38 Oh yeah, good old Ron. Had a beer with him yesterday ?????? 09:03:49 tcr, the one with lexicons? 09:04:04 Summermute66: I'd probably have used Corman if not for its lack of unicode support, but CCL with some extra tools fits the bill 09:05:22 Interesting, last time I looked at Corman was a LONG LONG time ago and it was just coming up (read immature). So it's a credible option to LispWorks, Allegro, etc. among the commercial Lisps? (Corman is still commercial, yes?) 09:05:59 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:06:43 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 09:08:11 I'm on the brokish side (for a 43year old guy with a kid and expenses) hence I'm looking at the free tools. My buddy used to work on Symbolics machines way back in day (govt. work), and now licenses LispWorks and it's pretty darned impressive. 09:08:52 corman is commercial, but has pretty sweet licensing deals 09:09:09 and LispWorks afaik has similar prices as Open Genera... 09:09:24 LispWorks is $$$$ 09:09:45 How is corman's feature set and platform coverage? 09:10:20 Oh - and compiler/executable packaging/etc capabilities 09:10:27 anyway, from free stuff on win32/win64, I recommend CCL. Haven't yet encountered problems with it (except for the booting one). Corman doesn't have support for unicode, afaik, but rest is nice 09:10:48 Thanks for the info. 09:11:18 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:11:34 -!- rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:34 I'll keep with CCL on the CL side of life (and, ducking, PLT Scheme, on the Scheme side of life) 09:11:40 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 09:11:43 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:11:54 rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:09 -!- tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:12:18 heh. Just don't mixup #scheme and #lisp. People tend to get emotional on that issue since RS ;-) 09:12:44 And despite my occasional use of $5 words like "lazy" and "strict", I'll continue take only a mild, educational interest in Haskell :-) 09:13:57 ... now I recall that Haskell side complained some time ago about lack of skirmishes on the Haskell-CL front... 09:14:26 p_l: No problem, on #scheme its all 1) bitching about r6rs and 2) students looking for help with their homework and 3) people legitimately wrestling with the crazy "phases" of the hygeinic macros system. 09:15:03 heh 09:15:17 -!- viro`haz1d is now known as viro`hazrd 09:15:34 as for going to Scheme... I recall seeing BBN Butterfly Lisp sources sometime during last 72hrs 09:16:07 There's a very cool language,Q or something, that is basically a Haskell style language implemented on top of Common Lisp. It's worth a peek just to see what can be done. Nice things as it's typed, it puts in type hints that some compilers pick up in order to compile much faster code. 09:16:34 Qi is not haskell style. 09:16:47 Qi is about first order logic types and pattern matching. 09:16:56 Zhivago: thanks for correcting me 09:17:13 I think far more interesting things can be done by writing things on top of CL, in a Lispy style. Possibly allowing for a connection to the lisp world-again 09:17:17 My knowledge is passing at best from skimming the LTU blog site 09:17:22 Qi is nice in that it allows you to construct inconsistent type systems. 09:17:55 one of my projects will probably require writing a type inference engine, but I don't have time for it now :/ 09:18:00 Zhivago: sounds intersting, example? 09:18:26 Not readily to hand, but you might want to look up 'sequent calculus'. 09:18:43 It's just the usual problem of a sufficiently powerful logic system. 09:19:03 What it means is that it doesn't limit you to subsets which can't be inconsistent (like haskell). 09:19:29 You get enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot, if you want to. 09:19:39 Zhivago: when you say "first order logic types" do you mean logic "bind once" variables unification style pattern matching? 09:19:58 If so, I didn't pick that up from perusing the web site casually. 09:20:13 No. 09:20:24 Ok, Gotcha. 09:20:28 Read about sequent calculus and all should become clear. 09:20:41 BTW - I like "rope" in programming language design :-) 09:21:09 How is Qi adoption/development going? 09:21:23 The original developer went insane and fled to India. 09:21:28 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:21:32 Really? 09:21:42 The current people are looking at making it less dependent on CL, and more portable. 09:22:12 e.g., so that it could be retargetted to Closure, et al. 09:22:15 Wow. Does it come out of a university based project (or some other grant source)? 09:22:17 hmm... what about licensing? 09:22:19 sorry, Clojure. 09:22:37 hkBst [n=hkBst@37pc222.sshunet.nl] has joined #lisp 09:22:40 I recall it having license that made me drop it immediately 09:22:44 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:22:55 The license is reasonable, iirc. 09:23:02 more like, targettable to Python. except it already is. 09:23:14 and i don't mean CMU compiler 09:23:53 p_l, it's ambiguous, but it's either GPL or bsd-with-a-book 09:23:55 I know you have your own relationship with your target market, but personally Clojure -> JVM -> JIT is unappealing to me. 09:24:36 weirdo: last time I checked, it used GPL and I think it was v2, not v3, so anything that didn't want to pay commercial license had to be under GPL 09:24:37 JIT is a fancy name for runtime compilation 09:24:49 which lisp did, like, for ages man, like totally 09:24:53 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:25:06 *p_l* likes JVM... to an extent. It's quite fast 09:25:08 Doesn't matter -- being easily retargettable is just a good idea -- it means that the primitives are clearly defined and not just 'whatever CL does'. 09:25:12 I'd rather you target something like D (garbage collection, nice fast system software language, cross platform) => that in the end produces executable programs that are of a reasonable size, working set and RUN LIKE BLAZES. 09:25:26 p_l, commercial license consisted of a book :-) 09:25:38 not like the license could hold up in court or anything 09:25:48 weirdo: Well, the nice thing is that a lot of money has gone into making JVM's jit fast, as opposed to the CL ones. 09:26:43 summermute: Well, the thing is that JVM does pretty much run like blazes these days. 09:26:55 Zhivago, so far by debian's inane tests it's not even consistently 2x faster than sbcl 09:26:56 summermute: Less prejudice, more empiricism. :) 09:27:08 besides, it doesn't even have any sensible dynamic language support 09:27:14 I read somewhere "credible" that the Sun Server JIT was the most optimized compiler in history. Whacky claim. 09:27:18 and i dunno if it even has eval 09:27:20 Oh, didn't they hack something into the latest JVM spec? 09:27:26 JVM can be a little problematic towards incremental compilation, I guess, though it's doable (I just don't know how far HotSpot rearranges code) 09:27:50 In any case, why bitch about practical support? :) 09:27:57 Summermute66: not wacky - it's probably true 09:28:17 WHY USE JVM?!?!??!?! C IS FASTAR 09:28:19 Summermute66: it's just that it takes a lot to get that performance out, due to various reasons 09:28:37 I'm just fond of delivering executable programs and preferably ones that at *can* be compiled in such a manner that they can have a very fast startup time. Those are my only issues with JIT style compilation. 09:29:02 i heard JVM is so retarded that ABCL can't compile without some java "security layer" intervening 09:29:02 the same optimization method, in less polished version, was used for example in my installation of Firefox 09:29:05 come on! 09:29:33 i think it was for applets or something 09:30:37 Summermute66, sbcl's core load time is pretty fast for what it does 09:31:20 AFAiK, the Sun Server JIT is due to lots of relatively rapid fire Sun and IBM research to convince their customers to migrate server software to Java base application servers, mqseries messaging server interfaces/replacements, and on and on. 09:31:58 That doesn't even make sense in insanity land. 09:32:08 weirdo: that's good to hear. I like writing compilers, but my primary "interest" is runtime systems. All tradeoffs all the time :-) 09:32:11 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has joined #lisp 09:32:17 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 09:32:39 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 09:32:46 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 09:32:49 Hmm, 'likes writing compiles', 'interest in runtime systems' ... I see a future in JIT development here ... 09:33:20 i like how sun makes a proper noun of everything it touches 09:33:25 Writing compelling runtime systems 09:33:26 -!- reprore__ [n=reprore@EM114-48-72-224.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:33:30 "JIT", "Servlet" 09:34:07 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 09:34:23 not only did this stuff exist for decades before sun came along, but no one else made so retarded names for these concepts 09:34:33 weirdo: marketing 09:34:56 Funny how it was that sun managed to make them popular :) 09:35:02 Zhivago: No, I have no interest JITs. My current system produces stupid old NASM targeted assembler and compiles and links in the traditional fashion (more or less) 09:35:16 summer: Doesn't sound very run-time friendly. 09:35:29 I heard once that lack of good marketing was one of the reasons for DEC's demise, along with lack of push in PC-class market 09:35:57 it's funny how lisp will only be popular if someone markets it deceptively 09:36:02 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 nicktastique [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 frontiers [n=frontier@79.160.22.139] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 codemonkeyx 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[i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 09:36:18 kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 09:36:22 weirdo: and here I am :P 09:36:29 madnificent, PG? :) 09:36:30 The nice thing about Sun and IBM's research is this produced a *GIANT* corpus of really interesting papers on various aspects of compiler writing, in particular on how to implement certain features (think Java interface, for example) efficiently. 09:37:13 weirdo: no, I'm dirtier 09:37:26 madnificent, SICP forced meme? 09:37:37 weirdo: and I don't try to defend something else after I gained money on top of CL 09:37:43 weirdo: LoL 09:38:00 reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-174-34.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:38:37 *p_l* plans to gain money from CL :P 09:38:48 that reminds me that I have business plans to make... 09:38:49 Zhivago: RTS - register/stack use, gc and memory management, gc and thread switch safe points, calling conventions, module initialization order for some languages, and on and on - "run time systems". CL systems are full of interesting RTS issues, BTW. 09:38:58 http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1230981511/1 09:39:13 someone made a hoax about a SICP visual novel 09:39:18 *madnificent* plans to steal from p_l 09:39:55 weirdo: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 09:40:07 *p_l* has literal, real problems keeping himself in the chair 09:40:47 weirdo: now they should finish it, like Katawa Shoujo :D 09:41:07 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:41:13 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177120148.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:39 p_l, no one's going to finish it :( 09:41:49 madnificent: so far I don't have anything worthy of stealing 09:41:56 weirdo: WHYY!?!?!? 09:42:24 p_l, because it's been posted as anon few years ago, and there's been no mention of it ever since 09:42:29 that reminds me, I've got my SICP still unfinished 09:42:33 p_l: that's why I'm still planning 09:42:49 what was that thing in emacs to see your latest keyboard command? I just did something cool 09:43:08 p_l, and i doubt there's any original content, just shop and a few lines of text 09:44:02 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066a3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:06 good morning 09:44:21 *p_l* makes a sinister plan of porting PAIP&PCL to Visual Novel format, complete with 18+ content 09:44:58 p_l, too bad you're only joking. it would have been an epic win 09:45:12 weirdo: ... I'm 50/50 on taking it seriously 09:45:29 also, I have seen Nanoha-themed VN about Lisp, iirc 09:45:46 p_l, pics or it didn't happen 09:46:48 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 09:47:13 pr [n=pr@p579CA470.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:25 weirdo: I'll have to find it again, I lost my link, but when I find it back, I'll give you links 09:47:43 please deliver 09:48:10 Hah anyone seen the weird Lisp/Scheme comic where the young kid meets his grandfather and there's some long history story and then some war with the imperative programming folks - something like that, it was really funny and weird at the same time. 09:48:24 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 09:48:27 ah, I've seen that one 09:48:35 land of lisp 09:48:44 it says "comming this summer" over 2 years or something 09:48:54 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 09:49:01 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:49:05 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:49:06 Yeah - cool, but it's clear evidence that some people have way too much time on their hands :-) 09:49:43 m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.11] has joined #lisp 09:50:05 One very good example of a "comic" approach to teaching a programming language is the original Forth book. It's really, really excellent on all fronts - one of the classics, if geek books can have "classics" 09:50:22 I think this is the right time to say 09:50:25 Summermute66, a good example on teaching something is make a manga out of it 09:50:26 rule 34 09:50:40 Summermute66, Das Kapital manga is selling like butter 09:50:40 has anyone ever implemented basic unix tools in lisp like say cat where one could do (cat /file/in/some/folder) 09:51:17 educate an old man: rule 34? 09:51:36 <_3b> http://lambda.bugyo.tk/cdr/mwl/ <- lisp manga? 09:51:55 anything which exists will become pr0n in some way or another 09:52:13 Summermute66, http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Rule_34 09:52:15 NSFW 09:54:07 Das Kapital is worth a read if one has a long non-geek stretch of time. 09:54:57 i can't believe it's prose 09:55:19 i think marx used some kind of poetry 09:55:32 re: abcl + jvm security.. just isntall a java security mananger that allows it.. problem solved 09:55:34 34 - TOTALLY makes sense to me :-) 09:56:06 -!- m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:56:16 dmiles_afk: that's absolutely right (one small area of the JVM is used to know something about) 09:57:11 weirdo: http://lyrical.bugyo.tk/ <--- thank _3b for finding bugyo.tk for me :) 09:57:33 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.94.153] has joined #lisp 09:57:37 http://lyrical.bugyo.tk/mlll_sc28.png <--- CONS cell lecture 09:58:02 ugh moonspeak 09:58:12 did they write "cons" in katakana or something? 09:58:40 weirdo: that's why I chose pic that has classic schematic of CONS cell and has several mentions of CDR and CAR in latin script 09:58:51 ... well, only CDR 09:59:31 also, the game is implemented using Lisp-based engine 10:00:06 (some scheme variant in this case, implementing NScripter VM + adding REPL 10:00:14 Post WWII stupid Communist Utopia/Stalinism/Cold War *completely* aside, it's just totally trippy how Marx's work has had a simply huge impact on so many fields of social science to this day and even some of theh "common knowledge" we walk around with in our heads. That's all I meant about the value of reading Das Kapital - a kind of intellectual history based self-knowledge venture. 10:00:28 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:00:38 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06c4a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:16 -!- serichse` is now known as `serichsen 10:01:44 Summermute66, yeah, like his "use value" was outdated before he started writing das kapital 10:01:50 Das Kapital, Leviathan, in the same league 10:01:55 -!- aefjt [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:02:02 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066a3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:02:12 -!- `serichsen is now known as serichsen 10:02:35 guaqua: Exactly 10:02:41 Summermute66: i'm not so sure of the causal relation. but at least it formalizes those concepts 10:03:51 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:03:55 Marx and Engels were agents of the Bank of England - the model they offered elevated the visible mechanical (that's what materialism is) world at the expense of the abstract dynamical world (things like distance and temperature) 10:03:56 weirdo: Just a dumb example from economics, but Marx is responsible for the modern concept of "hedonic value" which since with mid 1990s is now used to calculate our official GDP numbers - whacky stuff, when you think about it. 10:04:13 morning. 10:04:23 i dunno why old-timers gave up on s/n ratio 10:04:54 usually i'm threatened with chanop commands in such situations 10:04:55 Yeah. This is #Lisp, not #politics 10:05:43 Anyway, for some reason it just came up as an aside - no need to get one's thong in a bunch. 10:05:57 Summermute66, hedonic value is like "perceived use-value"? 10:06:29 ok so anyone got (cat /file) or (cp source dest) 10:06:37 anyone have unix in lisp? 10:06:46 weirdo: yes, we could go on, but shouldn't - personally, I prefer the pre-Clinton/Rubin old style GDP formulat. let's discuss in some other life. 10:07:08 rares: ME! 10:07:08 rares, (run-program ...) 10:07:11 Why would you want unix in lisp 10:07:30 *Jafet* mutters silly people 10:07:48 so i can use lisp as a shell mostly 10:08:00 Summermute66, i prefer no abiogenesis 10:08:38 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.216.165] has joined #lisp 10:09:27 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:09:44 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 10:09:45 rares: my language has a roughly "C style" pre-processor. While the language has a very non-Lisp syntax, the pre-processor has 1) and s-expr based syntax and 2) in addition to %(if (def MACOS) ....), it has a bevy of bash/csh style features that can run prior to the next phase of compilation. 10:10:39 I remember there being a shell app, was it by pjb? 10:10:48 #[foo] for regular bash commands. 10:11:14 rares, you'd have to have special syntax either way if you don't want to have strings around everything. so it wouldn't be (). 10:11:45 I decided early to NOT make this "repl" interactive shell oriented. it's just an "uber c pre-preprocessor" using s-expr syntax and lots of file-frobbing/shelling out/io redirection power. 10:11:49 What's the general opinion here: should you use a reader macro, e.g. #[], or something else? 10:12:09 Summermute66, is it available on github or similar? 10:12:19 weirdo: u used a $20 word :-) 10:12:41 weirdo: what will say for a VN teaching programming with CL, available on CD? :P 10:12:49 Summermute66, even creationists know that one 10:13:39 Here's one experiment. Looks okay. http://dan.corlan.net/shelisp/shelisp_manual.html 10:13:41 p_l, nah. unlimited use and redistribution at least 10:14:17 Now I can see why, but I'm a typical Ivy League, uncritical acolyte of pop-science evolution :-) 10:15:01 weirdo: sure, + deluxe edition on CD :P 10:15:23 What does scsh do? I've never touched it, but I think the whole purpose is to be a scheme shell. 10:15:30 moar liek moar than a demo version, amirite? 10:15:40 Okay, should the regular command line functions be escaped, or should the common lisp code be escaped? 10:16:01 there's also clash. 10:16:17 Summermute66: it was more for writing complex scripts 10:16:28 p_l: ah 10:16:57 .... Magical Programming Language Lyrical Lisp... o_O 10:16:58 There's also a Python shell I used to use. IIRC, !blah blah was automagically shell 10:16:59 tcl would be better for a shell 10:17:18 since there a "ls -al" would work pretty easily 10:17:35 without any fucking around with read macros 10:17:38 Summermute66, ! with ? for escaping sounds good, no? (i.e. ! is approx ` and ? is ,) 10:17:56 read macros are there to be used! 10:18:04 tic, for a shell they suck :( 10:18:23 weirdo, why? 10:18:26 So, I might make a REPL with implicit quotes and an escape char for shelling out 10:18:57 With implicit quotes, literals would no longer just magically evaluation to themselves 10:19:11 how would you make the magic quotes? 10:19:17 tic, because for a suitable shell-language there should be no dichotomy between actual language and shell 10:19:18 weirdo: or a modal shell, with default being command execution, and a way to switch to lisp-mode 10:19:24 In other words. scott@dizzy> quote 4 10:19:28 p_l, like Maxima? 10:19:48 egoz [n=Egoz@125.163.14.222] has joined #lisp 10:19:49 p_l, (lisp-mode) #| lisp code goes here |# (script-mode) ; script code goes here ? 10:19:51 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06d335.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:52 scott@dizzy> !ls /home/lisa 10:20:40 Summermute66, so you'd write your own custom REPL? I was always under the impression that writing your own REPL that is also CL compatible is a lot of work. 10:20:46 something like shelisp? 10:20:51 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA6D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:19 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:20 tic: Maybe like #\, in listener 10:21:21 *tic* refers to a bunch of lines up where he pointed that out. :-) 10:21:44 sorry tic 10:22:02 tic: I've never gotten it to work decently though 10:22:03 madnificent, that's okay. .-) I just wonder why nobody picked it up. I agree, it sounds very much like shelisp. 10:22:14 madnificent, it uses (provide). that's not very standard is it? 10:22:30 ah, could be 10:22:32 I like the design of shelisp. Doesn't deal with redirection though. 10:22:44 perhaps porting that to be somewhat more standard is a good way to go :P 10:22:46 or rather, provide is OK, but deprecated. don't think you use that anymore, right? 10:22:54 well, it /is/ proper CL. 10:23:03 is there a word for "facepalming constantly"? 10:23:24 chris2 [n=zhora@p5B16A7F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:23:28 (constantly 'facepalm), huh? 10:23:35 Well, if one is writing a shell with fancy stuff like (out (in (grep -i "^[A-Z]) myfile.txt) "/dev/null") and probably reader macros to make it look more unix shell like, writing a REPL is going to be a small part of the overall effort. 10:23:39 weirdo: no, but I saw some TAGBODY based code for it 10:23:57 i mean, like, reverse dictionary 10:25:00 Summermute66, I guess. 10:25:07 i once saw a movie based on facepalming constantly, so i wonder if there's a word for it 10:25:26 there's certainly a word for when facepalming is not enough 10:25:34 it's known as "facecar" 10:26:11 Heh. 10:26:26 p_l, nah, like, facepalming when talking to someone, so talking with someone else, facepalming, going to 4chan, facepalming, reading wikipedia, facepalming, and so on 10:26:53 I think the lesson to be learned is that just having and interpreter with a REPL does NOT IMPLY that writing an OS shell is a trivial job. 10:27:37 -!- G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.97.127] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:27:37 writing a usable os shell isn't a trivial job 10:27:43 Summermute66, the hardest part is really designing the syntax. as you've probably noticed. 10:27:55 but i wouldn't call bash(1) a usable shell 10:28:28 G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.97.127] has joined #lisp 10:28:38 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 10:28:44 tic, oh really? just throw some eyecandy at posix shell and it works great 10:28:50 just see zsh 10:28:53 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:54 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 10:29:07 weirdo, well... 10:29:24 weirdo, people use and like compiz, too, so I don't really see your point here. :-)þ 10:29:35 tic, i use zsh 10:30:01 and it's more usable than any unix shell ever 10:30:10 because i can use it without hacking it every day or week or month 10:30:13 zsh is a unix shell. 10:30:25 i can log in to some system with 2006 revision of my zshrc and not RAGE 10:30:27 I think we're misunderstanding each other here. 10:30:42 weirdo: I grew up on csh with Ultrix and then BSD based SunOS, but I finally came around to using bash - what's wrong with it? 10:30:48 tic, lisp programs are always half-finished and encourage constant hacking 10:30:50 but sure. without my .bashrc and .inputrc I'd go nuts. 10:31:35 Lisp programs are not inherently more or less half-finished than programs written in other languages. 10:31:38 afk 10:31:40 That is stupid. 10:31:41 someone stop this argument and build a CL compatible shelisp :P 10:32:09 just use emacs 10:32:11 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:32:34 M-x shell-command 10:32:41 M-x eshell 10:32:52 bind it to a key 10:33:20 Jafet: M-x shell - and then I just use that buffer as my shell probably 90% of the time. 10:34:15 weirdo: Is there a quick summary of what makes zsh so cool? 10:34:36 i use zsh, main reason is that it bothers me the least 10:34:37 Summermute66, 1. ncurses menus for selecting stuff from tab completion 10:34:41 using keyboard arrows 10:34:43 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06c4a3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:43 in multiple columns 10:34:50 levenshtein-distance error correction 10:35:29 completing getopt switches 10:35:46 weird: how does it do that? 10:36:21 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:36:28 do what? 10:36:34 Does it keep some database of getopt syntax for every command that can run on the shell? 10:36:58 for stuff that's no ai-complete to parse (like gnu getopt), it can query it 10:37:08 for other stuff, it has a turing-complete "database" 10:37:09 :-) 10:37:21 crap 10:37:28 s/gnu getopt/gnu configure script/ 10:37:28 hmmm 10:37:38 wouldn't it be a good idea if sbcl set something like sb-impl::*last-thread* to the value of the last thread it created? 10:37:44 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 10:37:58 fusss: for what purpose? 10:38:11 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:38:27 facepalm 10:38:36 milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.131] has joined #lisp 10:39:19 Summermute66: sometimes you would like to terminate a thread 10:40:39 sure - I guess I don't know sbcl's thread api. I would think that one could get a handle to a created "inactive thread" and then do what one wanted with it. 10:41:52 Summermute66: FIND-THREAD is pretty much a convenience wrapped for find-if and sb-thread:list-all-packages 10:42:19 -!- serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06d335.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:42:41 did someone ever say that "setf could be a user-made macro"? 10:42:42 How is it possible that the thread is created without producing some "thread value" that can be bound to a variable? 10:43:17 (defun find-thread (name) (find-if (lambda (x) (string-equal name (thread-name name)) (list-all-threads)) 10:43:23 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 10:43:33 Summermute66: a thread object IS returned 10:43:39 Well good CLtL2 says that setf is extensible via user code, IIRC. 10:43:41 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 10:43:51 but i wanted it accessible like a * ** *** + etc. 10:44:07 Summermute66, it's not about extensibility 10:44:25 Oh, you mean frome the REPL via some magic variable? 10:44:39 weirdo: in some lisps, SETF is a loaded module :-) LispWorks has a SETF package, for example 10:44:45 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d87b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:06 fusss, too bad there's setf symbol function with some ad-hoc stuff for environment objects/code walker 10:45:24 s/symbol function/local function 10:45:35 and users can't create foo local functions 10:45:49 or how keywords are magic but users can't create packages that are magic in a different way 10:46:09 fusss: that's the way it should be. Lisp's are WAY to monlithic. Should there be a CLtL3 (or whatever the next standard might be), I hope that there will be a (relatively) small core and then a large standard library. 10:46:47 Summermute66: there is a CLtL3, and you might like ISLisp, Common Lisp in small pieces 10:46:53 That's essentially already the case. 10:47:01 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:47:01 brb, ice-cream 10:47:01 Summermute66, what's monolithic about Lisp? 10:47:39 Summermute66, oh come on, not even scheme does that 10:48:20 the idea that standard libraries could be shared between impls with minimal nuisance 10:48:57 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06e3b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:09 -!- serichse` is now known as `serichsen 10:49:10 Ok, my ML side is coming out, but type Lisp 'a = (cons 'a, Lisp 'a) | Nil; In other words, even the list itself might not be "built in" to the Lisp core. And certainly not (length) or (nth) or whatever. All this stuff should be in a module (not package). IMHO, of course. 10:49:37 Summermute66: s/Lisp/List/ 10:49:54 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d87b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:49:57 -!- `serichsen is now known as serichsen 10:50:05 Why does it matter whether a standard primitive is `"built in" to the Lisp core`, or not? 10:50:08 Lithth 10:50:08 Sorry, It's nearly 6 AM and I just took some meds :-) 10:50:11 I can't believe this discussion is still going on. 10:50:17 Summermute66, what's a Nil value? 10:50:21 doing in there? 10:50:22 Summermute66: you're right, but since lisp lists are used for lisp sources, they're needed even before you can speak about lisp code. 10:50:45 weirdo: Summermute66 Nil = NULL 10:50:52 besides, lisps like to bootstrap themselves 10:51:08 Yeah, but the reader is essentially it's own library - so I don't think the bootstrap issues would be all *that* hard. 10:51:09 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 10:51:10 In lisp we'd write (deftype list () (or (cons t list) null)) 10:51:18 In lisp we'd write (deftype list () `(or (cons t list) null)). 10:51:29 hmm in movitz CL:NIL is a separated tagged type with a pointer to the instruction pointer 10:51:37 Or: (deftype list (a) `(or (cons a (list a)) null)). 10:51:51 Grrr, s/ a/ ,a/ 10:52:27 in lisp we'd type (deftype proper-list (datum) '(satisfies proper-list-p)) 10:52:54 which is why turing-complete type systems are great 10:53:03 weirdo: I think the terminology for Nil is a "nullary constructor". So one can construct a non-recursive algebraic datatype like type Color = Blue | Red | Yellow | Green. And then say, fun color-circle(color:Color) = ..... In some hypothetical "functionalish" syntax. 10:53:29 Summermute66: we have this problem in a lot of systems. For example, most of the Mac OS ToolBox Managers were only designed to run the Finder. When you tried to use them in your own applications they often showed they limits very soon. Similarly in lisp, most legacy data types are here only to implement the lisp reader and eval functions. 10:53:35 minion, tell Summermute66 about clhs eql 10:53:35 Summermute66: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 10:53:49 weirdo: s/,/:/ 10:54:16 there's no need for a special 'null' type, since there's an EQL type 10:54:34 which is why lisp is a dynamic-typing language 10:54:38 which is why we can't have nice things 10:55:30 hmm maybe he's harrop 10:56:14 relatively erudite, check; understanding lisp in terms of ML, check; troll, check 10:57:26 pjb: I think you are right. In PLT's experimental typed-scheme dialect, they added a U (as in 'U') type constructor so one can write some thing like: (define-struct: cons a ([head : a] [tail : List (a)])) (define-struct: nil ()) and finally type-alias List a (U (cons a) nil)) 10:58:29 The real point is that there's a million ways to skin this cat in either a parametric polymorphic manner or completely latently typed manner (Miranda?). There's no reason to take a 600 or so page book and say "This is Lisp" 11:00:20 weirdo: what does the "null" type have to do with EQL ? 11:00:30 Summermute66: now, deftype won't take recursive type definition IIRC, so for a (list a) type you will have to use SATISFYING, but you can implement a type semantically equivalent to (deftype list (a) `(or (cons ,a (list ,a)) null)). 11:00:35 Summermute66, it's pretty redundant 11:01:18 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06f3af.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:32 i mean, there's a NULL type in CL 11:01:46 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o Krystof 11:01:47 but no one makes fancy names for it like "nullary ctor" 11:01:50 Well, if this undertaking was done seriously, I imagine more than a few revisions to deftype make take place :-) 11:02:10 ENOPARSE 11:02:43 we have funny stuff in lisp, you know 11:02:56 Summermute66: well, the nice thing with lisp is that you can easily add such a thing to lisp yourself ;-) 11:03:01 types like (integer -42 37) 11:03:10 If one reads tutorials on ML one will see terminology like "nullary ctor" - just meaning it takes no arguments, not because the example in question was defining "Nil" 11:03:31 egoz_ [n=Egoz@125.166.179.83] has joined #lisp 11:04:14 Summermute66, i think what that Harrop dude does might interest you 11:04:18 Anyone keep up with whatever came of EuLisp - wasn't that at some point considered "Lisp done right" - sort of rationalized, put into libraries, pared back in places, etc. ???? 11:04:31 read up comp.lang.lisp archives sometime. he's quite a prolific member 11:04:57 Summermute66: I guess EuLisp is becoming forgotten for lack of availability of an opensource implementation. 11:04:59 I don't know anyone named Harrop, but I have shopped and dined at Harrods in London, which was an afternoon to remember. 11:05:21 Summermute66: otherwise the only thing with EuLisp is that it's a lisp-1. I think I prefer a lisp-2. 11:05:59 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:06:43 Summermute66: however, the sources of VLisp, a precursor of EuLisp are available (but with some bit-rot, I think half a day of work would be needed to compile it on current linux). 11:06:55 pjb: I like Lisp-1 for one reason. To me #'(lambda (x) (+ x 1) looks really goofy to me with the extra #' syntax. Odd, but hay, aesthetics are a personal thing. 11:07:00 -!- egoz_ [n=Egoz@125.166.179.83] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:07:26 egoz_ [n=Egoz@125.166.179.83] has joined #lisp 11:07:37 it's only trolling if people don't know the troll is a troll, and respond of something more than boredom 11:07:39 Sorry, missed an extra ')' 11:07:42 Summermute66: I agree with you, that's why I upgraed to ANSI CL, where there's a LAMBDA macro that allow you to just write (lambda (x) (1+ x)). 11:07:48 He he. 11:08:25 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:08:54 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:09:15 yay ANSI CL! 11:09:41 See, my knowledge is dated - I did not know that! a nice (lambda) macro plus (labels) - my fave recursive fun def special form .... Hmmmm 11:09:49 some people would be cool to hang around with if they wouldn't be sociopaths 11:09:59 s/wouldn't be/weren't/ 11:10:04 Again, stupid question - does CL have named let ? 11:10:11 Summermute66: no. 11:10:15 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:10:37 Summermute66: But it shouldn't be too hard to write as a macro, using tagbody and go. 11:10:49 (several examples have been published on cll). 11:10:50 pjb: That's a pity, because after (labels) it's my other favorite convenient recursive looping mechanism. 11:11:09 Summermute66: notice that labels is compiled with TCO on all the implementations I know. 11:11:38 (or perhaps only tail recursive call optimizations). 11:11:42 Good point - there's got to be a million named let and named let* macro implementations out there 11:12:17 pjb: re TCO, I wouldn't have it any other way :-) 11:12:28 me too 11:12:43 My lisp of 20 years ago did full "last call" optimization, recursive tail call or not. 11:13:02 just like sbcl, i presume 11:13:18 i dunno if it does it for empty LET forms, though 11:13:48 i mean, empty body forms with the last variable treated as a tail call 11:14:05 Depending on stack use and the number of registers, it can cost a bit funcall wise, but I figured it was a good "invariant" to present to the developer. 11:14:46 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06e3b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:56 moar liek JMP-wise 11:17:08 My current uber project includes "leaf call" status (and memory allocation status) in the "type system" analysis of a program. That way I can pick various mechanistic things that often happen during a function call - like last call optimization, checking for a safe GC and so on and so forth. The whole point is to speed things up on the majority of non-memory-allocating "leaf" calls - which I'd bet is the majority of calls in a "run of the mill" user appli 11:17:09 josemanuel [n=josemanu@238.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:19:16 like a call graph? 11:19:46 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066cb6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:54 -!- egoz [n=Egoz@125.163.14.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:00 reprore__ [n=reprore@EM114-48-174-34.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:20:25 Definitely applicable - think simply of the (nasty, IMHO) checked exceptions in Java and how exceptions are propagated "up 11:21:30 " through the call graph. Well, now think of "leaf call" and "no-alloc" as similar attributes, but ones derived from a pretty simple static analysis vs. an exception declaration. Make sense? 11:23:14 Basically, all the "primops" are leaf calls (the stuff that pretty much gets inlined via assembly), and only a known subset of the primops are the ONLY things that allocated memory. So the static analysis is very straightforward. 11:23:50 http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:snfkp1zbWnQJ:paste.lisp.org/display/89327+summermute66&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk 11:24:01 It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 26 Oct 2009 21:02:49 GMT 11:24:03 -!- serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06f3af.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:24:05 When: 10 minutes ago 11:24:35 crap. misread. i thought you wrote that "lisp is obnoxious" and you wrote something else. 11:24:37 Strangely enough, I struggle through the tech papers on Citeseer, SchemeRead (or whatever it's called) and I've never heard of this particular style of analysis for this particular purpose. 11:24:58 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06d265.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:03 -!- serichse` is now known as `serichsen 11:25:23 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d066cb6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:25:25 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has left #lisp 11:25:27 -!- `serichsen is now known as serichsen 11:26:05 Well, i don't know what that means. But while my language is more like ML + Objects than Lisp, the exact same analysis could be done for a regular CL implementation to speed up function call greatly in most calls in a program. 11:27:32 -!- egoz_ [n=Egoz@125.166.179.83] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:30:40 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06d682.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:54 Weirdo: regardign your quote thingy, I DID say " A perfectly valid CLTL2 Lisp compiler should be implementable via interactive compilation only - no interpretation required." and I still strongly believe that to be the case. CL implementations, IMHO, should give up interpretation strategies entirely, and implement debuggers and so forth just the same way that Pascal and C and Ada do - register descriptors, stack traces and so forth. Interpr 11:31:45 cut at Interpr 11:32:07 sorry: "Interpretation is completely vestigial IMHO" 11:33:27 repr_____ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:33:56 ciao 11:33:57 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-174-34.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:34:33 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 11:34:41 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has left #lisp 11:38:59 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d265.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:39:03 -!- serichse` is now known as serichsen 11:39:41 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:41:41 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:42:10 mrSpec [n=Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 11:43:08 It's not a binary choice between interpretation and compilation. There are a lot of degrees in between. It all depends on the time you spend on preprocessing. 11:45:53 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d0676fc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:02 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d682.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:47:05 -!- serichse` is now known as serichsen 11:48:57 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:49:01 -!- serichsen is now known as serichse` 11:49:19 -!- serichse` is now known as serichsen 11:51:15 fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.145.68] has joined #lisp 11:51:17 tcr: i'm confused 11:51:17 Xach, memo from tcr: the munich lisp meeting will take place at tuesday, 10th nov (not 11th) 11:52:09 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:52:26 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:53:24 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:53:40 mrSpec [n=Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 11:54:20 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 11:57:28 -!- reprore__ [n=reprore@EM114-48-174-34.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:01 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B254.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:53 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:09:36 what do you expect when a job description says "messaging between Java applications and LISP" (sic)? 12:10:17 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 12:12:37 serichsen, an illiterate trying to immitate ITA? 12:13:25 LISP messaging between Java applications 12:15:29 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:41 francogrex [n=user@91.177.57.87] has joined #lisp 12:21:42 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-197.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:22:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.94.153] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:33 are there any established mechanisms for such "messaging"? 12:28:42 Adlai: "imitate", by the way ;) 12:30:41 If I have a object in one pacakage that gets passes to a function in another package and I want to do slot-boundp on the passed object what should I pass as the slot name? 12:31:46 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:02 if I use the symbol I have in package A for the slot name the slot-boundp fails in the receiving function in package B 12:32:05 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:36:20 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 12:36:27 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:36:35 Harag: Objects like that don't have packages associated with them. Packages contain symbols. Symbols are used to determine the name of the slots. You must use the same symbol as the one that was used to name the slot in the class declaration. 12:36:55 eish 12:37:35 beach: darn ...thanx 12:39:11 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:39:31 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-179.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:54 beach: so if i use 'oid i a package A I have to pass A::oid or something like that? 12:40:06 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@238.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 12:40:39 Harag: Yes, but it is probably a bad idea to access a slot like that from another package. 12:41:01 Harag: For reasons of modularity, you should use readers and accessors, and avoid exporting the slot name. 12:41:39 beach: yeah well I dont have a choice weblocks looks for a "id" slot and you have to give it the slot name to use 12:41:50 I see. 12:42:34 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.131] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:43:40 beach: mmm so if I hack/extend weblocks to to a call to the accessor instead I can get around this? 12:43:57 to try a call 12:44:39 Harag: The "problem" remains the same in that you would then have to export the name of the accessor instead. 12:45:22 Harag: But existence of slots is usually considered an implementation detail, whereas accessors are more modular, and make it easier to write :before, :after, and :around methods. 12:46:13 angel_ [n=angel@221.223.126.154] has joined #lisp 12:46:54 beach: yes I understand ...I can only speculate about why weblocks does this... 12:47:21 I am afraid I have no idea. 12:47:49 Overdrive [n=user@81.202.77.182.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:56 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:48:10 beach: I can override the method that does the check in my package so that should sort it out ...I hope 12:48:17 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:49:14 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:50:43 spradnyesh 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[n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:11:22 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:27 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.32] has joined #lisp 16:12:12 stassats is there away to say they will all be single-float 16:12:19 no 16:12:54 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-168-170.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:30 if i put the declare in a loop that goes through the list, will it have any benefit 16:13:51 there might not be easier answer to that without profiling i suppose 16:13:52 may be, depends on the compiler 16:14:43 wouldn't hurt i suppose 16:14:47 cheers, stassats 16:14:49 Guthur: you can declare that via an FTYPE 16:15:00 clhs function 16:15:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 16:15:25 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:15:39 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:16:01 you want the system cass (t_fn). "The type specifier provided with &rest is the type of each actual argument, not the type of the corresponding variable." 16:16:37 pkhunong cheers, i will have a wee read at that, its a new one to me 16:17:58 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:18:53 declaring rest as dynamic-extent may be helpful too 16:19:32 stassats`: helpful at what? 16:19:49 at consing 16:20:16 even more helpful: don't use &rest lists. 16:20:34 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 16:20:37 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 16:20:53 or any lists, but specialized vectors 16:21:24 pkhuong ya for better performance i have a version that doesn't but i need one that can accept a variable number as well 16:21:54 vectors would be an option, the call wouldn't look as clean though 16:22:13 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-167-138.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:14 -!- napsy [n=luka@88.200.96.14] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:55 Guthur: that's where inlining and compiler macros come in. 16:24:21 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:24:21 -!- amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:24:33 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:24:55 umm never thought of a macro actually, a possibility... i'll come back to that at a later point i think 16:25:39 compiler macro 16:26:48 running hunchentoot I have these messages logged: 16:26:51 [2009-11-08 17:04:04 [ERROR]] Error while processing connection: I/O timeout reading # 16:27:20 do you know what is it ? 16:27:59 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:14 is compiler macro something more specialised? i was assuming it might just be another name, damn assumptions hehe 16:30:35 clhs define-compiler-macro 16:30:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_define.htm 16:30:50 it's different, yes 16:31:28 clhs 3.2.2.1 16:31:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bba.htm 16:32:35 stassats cheers, i'll make note of these, might be worth a look for this 16:33:00 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:28 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:34 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@220-136-224-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:34:38 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:22 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:49 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.94.153] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:09 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.94.153] has joined #lisp 16:38:24 wow, it's not hunchentoot, it's slime (for my previous problem) 16:38:28 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06fd5e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:36 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:43:48 Hi everybody, I'm suppose to write a function with optional args. Something like (whatver list :key something :test #'somefun). How can I get a value of the optional arg? 16:44:29 (defun foo (whatever &key key) (+ key whatever)) 16:44:54 Good evening everyone! 16:45:05 And if key is not used, then it defaults to nil? 16:45:23 right, or &key (key 10) for default value 16:45:30 Thanks. 16:45:37 clhs &key 16:45:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 16:48:39 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:42 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-167-138.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:51:09 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-89-251-92.eastlink.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 16:54:55 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-11-9.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:35 -!- lighterthanair [n=lightert@pool-71-249-97-6.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:56:43 StanleyD: Taking a Lisp course? 16:57:20 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:58:46 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-234-64.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:05 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:42 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 17:05:55 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:06:37 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:17 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:09:10 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.84.191] has quit ["AFK ~1/5h"] 17:12:15 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:37 Aisling [i=ash@blk-89-251-92.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 17:19:04 Summermute66 [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has joined #lisp 17:21:04 beach: Yes. At university we have a Lisp course. 17:24:08 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:39 StanleyD: You could also look at what PCL has to say about function parameters: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html 17:29:37 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-152-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:32:00 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.16.148] has joined #lisp 17:36:50 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:28 ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:55 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 17:47:04 hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:25 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-152-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:16 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.94.153] has left #lisp 17:56:24 -!- Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:56:42 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:20 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:58:40 StanleyD: What university is that? 17:59:42 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:01:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:01:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:34 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.16.148] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:10:48 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.84.191] has joined #lisp 18:16:42 c|mell [n=cmell@91.151.140.4] has joined #lisp 18:17:54 udzinari [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:21:09 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 18:23:18 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@89-178-19-232.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:24:29 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.16.148] has joined #lisp 18:26:30 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.16.148] has quit [Client Quit] 18:28:39 beach: University of Palacky in Czech Republic. 18:29:50 ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:48 Oh, Excellent! Eastern Europe is planning to take over the world by being more productive than the west! Good luck to you! 18:31:51 beach: Thanks. :) 18:32:36 I am also paying some Vietnamese to use CL, and I hope they can become more productive as well. 18:33:21 -!- udzinari [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:33:43 Anyway our University is only one in Czech Rep, where lisp is tought, afaik. 18:34:06 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:33 nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:34:43 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.16.148] has joined #lisp 18:34:44 Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 18:34:52 StanleyD: Mine is one of the few in France. 18:35:58 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.16.148] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:36:21 It is interesting to note, though, that the only two French universities that are ranked among the top 100 in the Shanghai ranking teach either Lisp or Scheme. 18:37:16 I am not willing to guess the causality though. 18:38:25 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:45 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:09 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-6-229.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:44:30 We also was tought Scheme at 1st grade. 18:45:22 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [No route to host] 18:46:00 Now, all you need is a bunch of students that, as opposed to here, realize that Lisp represents a potential to making industry much more productive. 18:46:08 beach, that list seems severely weird as the university of sheffield is included 18:46:50 also i have come to realise that the programming language has little influence on how productive someone is 18:46:58 c|mell: It's not perfect, that's for sure. 18:47:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:24 c|mell: That I am not willing to belive, or I would abandon Lisp right away. 18:48:12 i'm happy to see that my uni declined after i left but is still in the top ten :) 18:49:40 if it were true that lisp were so much better than another language you could point to an example of a project that was much better implemented in lisp 18:49:50 for example a compiler 18:50:00 instead, the best compilers are written in c/c++ . . . 18:50:21 c|mell: No, I don't buy that logic. 18:50:52 c|mell: What scientific method makes it possible for you to conclude that? 18:50:59 c|mell: indeed - lispers are omniscient and exist only to help you. 18:51:40 the only project i can think of that demonstrates that lisp is better is tpd2 18:52:12 c|mell: The absence of projects demonstrating that is not a proof of the contrary. Your scientific reasoning is flawed. 18:52:42 it is some kind of a proof, unless you can actually come up with some projects that were grand successes 18:52:47 well, it is not 100% proof, no 18:52:49 Are we really debating this in #lisp? Obviously, languages have an influence on productivity. Also obviously, languages are the sole influence on neither productivity nor software quality. 18:53:51 c|mell: It is not even 1%. The specific nature of programming languages makes it very hard to conduct a valid experiment. The only remotely valid one is reported in the article by Hudak et al. 18:53:51 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 18:54:58 I think that the best productivity comes when you choose a languge to given solution. And there is no language that is good for everything. 18:55:03 beach, link? is this more haskell advocacy? 18:55:08 redline6561: I don't think that is true either. I think the language can have an influence on the quality of the software, but I don't think that influence is independent of productivity (I think they might be opposites). 18:55:36 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:55:50 c|mell: The paper is in favor of Haskell, but they conclude that despite the fact that the best result was reported by someone using a dialect of Lisp. 18:56:37 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-67-166.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:40 http://www.haskell.org/papers/NSWC/jfp.ps 18:56:43 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 18:58:00 StanleyD: That is probably true, but that could still imply that some languages are better than some others, pretty much no matter what problem is chosen. 18:58:12 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:27 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:29 beach: I agree. 18:58:53 beach: I was only arguing that languages are not the only influence and that an objective assessment of productivity as a function of language choice is likely impossible. I'll have a look at that Haskell paper though. Thanks. 18:59:26 c|mell: It is hard to ignore the factor 20-30 difference in productivity implied by that paper. Even if you don't believe in that large a number, a difference of even just 20% would make a *huge* difference to the cost of a project. 19:00:28 beach: Anyway for text processing I'd rather choose perl than C. And for small one-timer scripts I'd use perl than lisp ... Anyway for functional programming lisp seems better even perl has functional constructs too. 19:00:48 mogglegran [n=marco@amherst597.amherstma.gov] has joined #lisp 19:01:06 Hello. What is the least insane (TM) way to write a parser for some human-readable domain specific language? 19:02:09 redline6561: And this is exactly my problem with CEOs of software companies today. In my opinion, their job is to make decisions based on hard facts first of all, but then when no hard facts exist, they must make decisions based on gut feeling. The problem is that they have no gut feeling about the productivity of programming languages, so the assume them to be the same. 19:02:12 In the past I've done things like use (load) on my human-readable DSL file, with the keywords of a small lispy language triggering function calls. 19:02:47 beach: That I can whole heartedly agree with. Sad, isn't it? I say, trust your engineers. Then again, I'm still in school and I have a lot to learn... ;) 19:03:03 Are there any good libraries that I can give a grammer to? 19:03:05 gbt [n=Who@91.110.150.198] has joined #lisp 19:03:07 StanleyD: Lisp is not a particularly good language for functional programming. I would choose Lisp whenever I need OO programming. 19:03:44 beach, (1) a scientific experiment this is not, it's just a bizarre anecdote, where is the statistical significance? nowhere 19:04:13 redline6561: As my essay point out (http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html), you can't trust your engineers either. 19:04:33 There seem to be quite a lot of parser libraries on cliki, and if any of them are particularly endorsed, it would be nice to know. 19:04:58 mogglegran, i used cl-yacc, it does its job as advertised 19:05:10 c|mell: True. And the easy way out for the CEO is to ignore it as such, thereby potentially saying "no thank you" to a factor 20 productivity increase. 19:05:16 beach: Why do you think that lisp isn't good for functional programming? 19:05:35 StanleyD: Because it is not a functional programming language. 19:05:45 beach, i worked in a lisp environment with professional lisp programmers 19:05:58 c|mell: Congratulations! 19:06:11 c|mell: thanks. I'll try that then. There's just quite the array of choices... it is helpful to have human input. 19:06:16 and in a c environment with professional engineers, the c people made more code better and more quickly 19:06:56 c|mell: I take it you mean that that fact is scientific proof, whereas the paper by Hudak et al is not? 19:07:17 i would say my sample size is significantly higher than 8, yes 19:07:52 c|mell: I have nothing more to say in this matter. 19:08:05 "Anyway for text processing I'd rather choose perl than C." Just, FYI, I did a kind of experiment many moons ago (mid 90s). I used a simple Regex library that worked with a "smart string" and a few utility functions I wrote (20 or so) for stuff like chopping \r\n and trivial stuff like that - Anyway, in a relatively primitive IDE of the day, writing the C++ was just as fast as writing a version in AWK (Perl wasn't so popular then) 19:08:48 sorry: "20 or so utility functions for chopping \r\n .... 19:08:49 sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-40-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:23 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 19:09:35 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-60-80.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:39 Greetings. 19:09:43 Summermute66, can i interest you in cl-irregsexp :) 19:09:52 Hello tmh! 19:09:53 IIRC, for those who remember, I think the Regex lib was just a compile of good old Henry Spencer's famous regexp.c one pager!!!! 19:09:58 Hey beach. 19:10:27 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-3-247.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:49 writing one-liners or 20-liners is not a task that you should compare languages by, when you intend to use them for multi-million-liners 19:11:11 serichsen: Thanks for pointing that out! 19:12:07 i've yet to see anything larger than 250k lines of java 19:12:21 it's a pain. everything is so deeply interrelated, the class hierarchies are massive 19:12:23 c|mell: Don't tell anyone, but I've been Scheming lately and actually using PLT' parser/tools to do some "harder core" rx style processing ;-) 19:12:28 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:48 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-25-201.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:12:53 (please, don't take the multi-million number literally) 19:13:27 guaqua: and the wise shaman in the desert said that a multi-million line program is written 250K lines at a time ;;-) 19:13:28 Lisp(Common/Clojure/Scheme) on LLVM, discuss. 19:13:37 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:58 I know it's been discussed, but I didn't find a good discussion on Google or cll. 19:14:31 StanleyD pasted "stream macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89995 19:14:33 I was catching up on FreeBSD news today and noticed that there is a concerted effort to use the clang frontend for FreeBSD base. 19:14:51 i'm guessing at least a third of the classes in that java program could have been written as lisp modules. java just doesn't have anything else but static classes 19:14:56 the wise shaman in the woods said that the woods are made of trees, but more than the trees 19:15:04 So, I started reading up on LLVM and was curious about the advantages of a common lisp frontend to LLVM. 19:15:08 Would anyone help me with this? I don't know why the (cdr ...) ins't expanded. 19:15:57 beach: I tend to use CL when I want rich OO with some functional aspects. My code ends up hybridized: mostly map/fold/filter, but (loop) when I need it. 19:16:05 I would target my (not lisp, but lisp-like-runtime) languuage on LLVM in a heart beat - but every time I look at it, there's still something weird about it - varargs (keywords, optional args), tail calls, higher order stuff, or something. I'm very sure some of these have been addressed in the last year or so. What's the status for using LLVM for a (admitedly pretty weird and complex) runtime system? 19:17:30 beach: does that sound reasonable? 19:18:15 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:18:18 Summermute66: I'm not a CS guy, so I don't appreciate the intricacies of targeting lisp to the LLVM. From my sky-high view, it seems like just another frontend. Seems like a win to have a common lisp frontend for the LLVM compiler chain and get the multiple platforms for free. 19:18:41 But the devil is always in the details. 19:19:58 Oh, and get the LLVM GC and JIT as well. 19:20:29 guaqua: It's hard enough to compare two programs in the same language. At 100K's of lines and up, the cruft is just going to get too much in the way. For example, imagine disqualifying *every* program that featured two or more functions with redundant functionality, or any routine that used linear search where binary search would have been faster. 19:20:42 -!- mogglegran [n=marco@amherst597.amherstma.gov] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:20:46 off course 19:21:06 i've just noticed the patterns. java uses classes even when there's absolutely no need for it 19:21:12 To me, I like to think of something Bill Gates said in the 80' when he was still kinda cool - judging a program by its size is like judging the quality of an airplane by what it weighs. Words to live by. 19:22:22 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 19:22:42 guaqua: Java is full of young programmers who dig those "new fangled" classes the exact same way that 13 year old boys dig those "new fangled" girls :-) 19:23:08 |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:19 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D0E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:19 -!- Overdrive [n=user@81.202.77.182.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:25:21 viro`haz2d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-61-138.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:22 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 19:25:51 tmh: missed your comment in the noise. LLVM has different features that attract different people (some like its JIT). But in general, there's a common backend intermediate representation and a family of optimizations on that IR and then it can target different instruction sets. So that's pretty cool - optimizations and portability (to varying degrees) for "free." 19:25:58 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-67-166.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:26:14 Speaking of LLVM  I have CL bindings for LLVM, any clever name for the project before I put it on cl.net? 19:26:14 sellout, memo from gigamonkey: better get cracking on NaNoWriMo writing buddy. Your word count seems a little stalled. 19:26:31 StanleyD: what does (stream-cdr (stream 1 2 3)) return? 19:26:40 heh 19:27:17 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:41 sellout: I presume you mean bindings to the LLVM api and not a complete CL with an LLVM backend :-) 19:28:05 Summermute66: Correct. 19:28:45 Summermute66: But there is a CL implementation of Kaleidoscope included as well ;) 19:29:01 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:05 I just love clever, but in the interests of finding anything CL in a shrinking CL universe (and think Google, too) how about "LLVM-CL" ? 19:29:16 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:24 Summermute66: Thanks. I'm just curious if there are some obvious show stoppers to having a common lisp frontend. From the little bit I read, I was thinking you could have a common lisp compile to the IR and then like you said, optimization and portability for "free". 19:30:40 I need/want to read up on LLVM and compilers in general, but quite honestly don't have the time. Computer science and writing compilers is not my expertise, but I have an outline of a lisp language in my head and someday in the unspecified future would like to try to implement it. 19:31:31 As I said, I just "peek in" every few months and then keep on working on my crazy project. Ever since I started "peeking in" there was always something "wrong" with it for my purposes. I imagine there are folks right here on IRC right now that can list more than a few areas where LLVM is less than ideal for a CL backend. Folks? 19:31:36 Probably it would be best just to implement it on top of common lisp for starters and then migrate it to something like the LLVM once it settles down. 19:32:01 I hate the CL-tacked-onto-library-name thing. I'd just call it LLVM before I call it CLLLVM or something. 19:32:33 Although, maybe "740" would be a good name ;) 19:32:48 tmh: go for the gusto! Writing compilers is both the hardest and easiest thing in the comp sci world :-) 19:33:31 sellout: I second being sick of CL-FOO. Define the package LLVM or LLVM-API and be done with it. 19:33:34 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 19:33:46 LLVM it is, then :) 19:35:00 One very good idea is to start with "hosted language." So use a CL implementation and CL syntax. Then design all your data types and syntax and start to incrementally put it together. As soon as you can, try to separate the two by having a CL written "compiler" and then text files of your target language (presuming your target lang fits into text files, otherwise, do whatever). 19:35:00 <_3b> ther is always LLLVM 19:35:22 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:13 Dawgmatix__ [n=dman@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:22 serichsen: It's just cdr. 19:36:59 _3b: or, thinking that to the end, L3VM (in the RnRS tradition) 19:37:01 well, just to dissent, "LLVM" is going to confuse alot of folks :-) 19:37:03 Summermute66: Ok, that is what I was thinking. This is a long term, low priority, task. It's going to require a lot of study on my part and in the end I'm not even sure what I envision has enough value to justify a new language. The problem is, I won't know if it has value or not until I actually implement a substantial part of it. 19:37:16 serichsen: Oh, sorry, it returns a result of second arg of dotted pair.. 19:37:36 "dyLLVM" for dynamic? 19:38:45 cffi-llvm? 19:38:54 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:14 clvm 19:39:47 llcl 19:39:51 Summermute66: No "CL". 19:40:01 gotcha 19:40:06 If you're using it, you know you're using CL. 19:40:40 <_3b> 'precipice'? being th einterface between a high level and a low level? 19:40:41 I kind of still like "dy" for dynamic. 19:40:41 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-3-247.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:41:04 But it's not any more dynamic that LLVM is. 19:41:06 than 19:41:31 one could easily imagine a future fork, like many want for hosting dynamic langs on the JVM (performance, not just convenience) 19:42:12 Right, and that fork of LLVM could be called dyLLVM. 19:42:14 sellout: do you need a web coder for your bindings? 19:42:26 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-68-248.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:49 sellout: first of all, I wonder why you'd need to fork LLVM to support dynamic languages... 19:43:08 p_l: You don't 19:43:22 p_l: But maybe a NQSLLVM (not quite so ...) 19:43:48 sellout: just link in a library with your extra, higher-level opcodes :> 19:44:25 I just did an LLVMCL scrabble search with ??? 3 wildcards - lots of candidates 19:44:47 p_l: Umm, I'm not suggesting anything higher-level. I'm just dismissing Summermute66's "dyLLVM" name for the bindings. 19:45:03 Summermute66: link? 19:46:10 Krystof: How do you mean? You mean for like maintaining docs and the CL translation of the tutorial? 19:46:15 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 19:46:19 <_3b> someone think of a name for my lisp->flash compiler too while we are at it :p 19:46:29 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 19:46:34 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-232-152.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:37 _3b: Call it "please don't strangle me" 19:46:47 http://www.wineverygame.com/ - no GET so typein llvmcl??? and have fun - also supports prefix/suffix for narrowing to "cooler" words. 19:47:14 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp032.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:47:20 like, LL makes me think of llama, but who wouldn't? 19:47:26 Then you can say to people "I made a lisp to flash compiler, please don't strangle me." And hopefully they'll listen. 19:48:02 <_3b> heh 19:48:20 _3b: choose some character's name from fiction book/movie/comic/whatever then make it into some crazy acronym 19:48:36 _3b: clordon 19:48:56 I suppose clash is already taken? 19:49:20 nimred [i=nimred@unaffiliated/nimred] has joined #lisp 19:49:35 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:44 Hello. Could someone help me ? Here is error I get when building sbcl from pkgsrc on NetBSD --> http://paste.lisp.org/+1XFX 19:49:56 COMA (COmmonvirtualMAchine) 19:50:28 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:08 nimred: a note certainly shouldn't cause a failure 19:51:25 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:28 nimred: something on your system disagrees with the bindings to "posix" (basically libc) in sbcl. You need to track that down, perhaps by doing something like: sh ./run-sbcl.sh, (require :sb-posix), (asdf:oos 'asdf:test-op :sb-posix) 19:51:51 the note that serichsen refers to is completely irrelevant; it did not cause a failure 19:52:33 Vellum could be a good LLVM in CL lib name :) 19:52:35 _3b: chemistry 19:52:40 (no, there's no "lisp" hidden in it, but I think that would be boring anyway) 19:52:54 Krystof not sure i understand what do you mean 19:53:00 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-29-157.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:53:34 nimred: as part of the sbcl build, each "contrib" runs a set of self-tests, checking whether enough of them pass 19:53:45 one of them, sb-posix, has failed its self-tests on your machine 19:53:57 sellout: ? 19:54:54 to find out which tests and to start debugging, you need to do "sh ./run-sbcl.sh" at the shell, "(require :sb-posix)" at the lisp prompt, "(asdf:oos 'asdf:test-op :sb-posix" at the lisp prompt, and then start investigating 19:55:30 fe[nl]ix: You don't think so? It has LLVM in it, and it has a hint of translating something into some arcane form ... or something. 19:56:02 hmmm 19:56:14 how about COLLVM ? 19:56:15 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 19:56:28 so roman. :) 19:56:37 indeed 19:56:44 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 19:56:50 fe[nl]ix: heh 19:57:21 -!- viro`haz2d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-61-138.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:22 LLVM is already named. CL (Common Lisp) is already named. We're really just naming an FFI binding, right? 19:58:27 sellout: it contains COmmon Lisp and LLVM 19:58:40 sellout: and as a bonus, everywhere you go you'll be asked to explain it 19:59:08 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 19:59:09 Summermute66: Well, mostly just FFI, yeah. 19:59:24 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:42 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 19:59:45 so maybe it's best to focus on that in particular, instead of CL and LLVM in particular. 19:59:47 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-234-64.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:00:20 Like "bind" and "binding" and "call" and "function" and "interface" are all good words and some have cool synonyms 20:00:28 therefore, cffi-llvm . . . 20:00:45 minion: memo for mogglegran: yeah, that sounds totally reasonable. 20:00:45 Remembered. I'll tell mogglegran when he/she/it next speaks. 20:00:46 "communicate" "interoperate" "cooperate" 20:01:12 Summermute66: It seems to make sense to focus on the LLVM part, though. Since people looking at code using it just want to know that it's talking to LLVM. 20:01:16 "call"and "llvm" both share "ll" in their spelling? 20:01:52 c|mell: And cffi is just an implementation detail. 20:02:05 (no offense, luis, it's a very important one) 20:02:14 yeah, sure - but knowing its and ffi related thing is handy too. 20:02:39 BTW - stupid question #46 for me today - "LL" is "low level"? 20:02:43 Hey folks - I've found that cl-graph is "asdf installable" but have little experience with asdf.... 20:02:56 Can anyone point me towards the procedure for installing something with asdf? 20:03:01 -!- Nshag [i=user@193.248.206.184] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:03:07 Summermute66: Yeah 20:03:31 Ok, the ada and ocaml bindings included with llvm are both just called llvm. I'm sticking with that. 20:03:58 (Although, in general, I am interested in general binding-naming-convention discussion. 20:04:07 Shamwow: clbuild seems to be the current choice. 20:04:42 Shamwow: After the install, you do (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :name-of-system) 20:05:35 Is there a big fat, really well written, accurate descriptioin of/tutorial for ASDF that also happens to cover any idiosyncrociese of say, the top 5-10, implementations - with really good examles, etc. 20:06:21 Summermute66: I didn't have the energy to follow your utterings all day, but are you convinced yeat that CL still has a future? 20:06:26 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:06:29 beach: if a new version of CL would form, would it still be created by some sort of comittee? 20:06:40 beach: thanks. When you say clbuild is the current choice - do you mean clbuild vs. asdf, or clbuild on top of asdf? I'm not familiar with clbuild either 20:07:03 Summermute66: what are you aiming for? 20:07:11 Shamwow: clbuild to get the right stuff onto your computer, then asdf to compile it. 20:07:14 sellout: well, LLVM is distinct enough that *within* the context of CL, no one is going to mistake what it is. If talking about it in the family of other LLVM bindings, humans will just make up whatever floats their boat anyway - "llvmcl" would be my bet. 20:07:19 beach: thanks! 20:07:27 madnificent: I have no idea! 20:07:36 madnificent: Ask the CLtL3 mailing list. 20:07:49 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:08:02 sellout: I could do that too, I guess 20:08:21 I was somewhat wondering how it was coming together 20:08:21 madnificent: Let's look at 2 lisp examples, arc and clojure. Those represent how the next lisp will be developed. Survival of the fittest. 20:08:30 Between I heavily frobbed CL and today, ASDF came to be fresh from the sea in a clamshell :-) So it's totally new to this old lisper, so since it seems pretty central to the scheme of things, I figure I should get to know it quite well. Make sense? 20:08:38 madnificent: That was meant to be more of a "there are people working on a new CL, it's the CLtL3 project" 20:08:45 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:45 tmh: the new lisp would be from the ground up different? 20:08:45 madnificent: Ah. 20:09:06 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:40 Summermute66: Yeah, that's a much better attitude than I saw in the beginning ("why don't you just throw in the towel") which is why I am asking whether you think we have something that others don't. 20:09:57 francogrex [n=user@91.182.62.5] has joined #lisp 20:10:10 madnificent: Maybe, if it proves to be a better alternative. Think mutation and evolution. Arc and clojure are both mutations. 20:10:18 madnificent: re new CL, I would certainly hope not. Or at least only a "committee" like the may 20 really folks or so at Parc who came up with Smalltalk. 20:11:10 tmh: I tend to be believe more in 'design' when it comes to a decent solution, than evolution 20:11:13 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-149-93.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:19 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:11:20 tmh: evolution takes ages 20:11:43 madnificent: The key thing is that TODAY, there are CL vendors who would even likely pretend to be important (from an economic view) to the language's design. Remember that CLtL2 was coming off that crazy cocaine high of the Lisp Machine era :-) 20:12:22 Summermute66: The CL standard is a brilliant piece of work that I challenge you to find the equivalent of in terms of quality. Not a bad job for a committee. 20:12:33 madnificent: I would have agreed with you in the past, but my experience is that you need feedback into the design and the earlier the better. 20:12:50 tmh: a bit like lisp evolved initially then? 20:14:18 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-68-248.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:21 perhaps it could be of any benefit to use the same thing as how clos got in the standard: pick the good libraries and make them mandatory... for some stuff that could be enough, no? 20:15:09 beach: My copy of CLtL2 is falling apart - I fully appreciate it's "genius" for what it is. But it *was* a big compromise between a bunch of vendors and also a few university groups. 20:15:10 I was just wondering how it was taking shape, that's all 20:15:42 minion: thwap for Summermute66 20:15:42 Summermute66: look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 20:16:03 Summermute66: I don't care how it was made. I am just looking at the quality of the result, and it is rare to find something that good. 20:16:46 Just a stupid example, but I would gladly debate the "brilliance" of including "symbol-value" in a some future programming language, or (defvar) creating dynamically scoped vars. We shouldn't forget that as cool as CL is, it is very much a product of it's very, very convoluted history. 20:16:54 beach: things are a bit different now though... lisp isn't as big as it used to be back then (at least, to my understanding) 20:17:30 fe[nl]ix: so, how many times can you twap a person? :) 20:17:42 s/twap/thwap 20:17:51 Summermute66: That is debatable, and beside the point. I maintain that the result is very high quality. 20:18:25 madnificent: Sorry, I lost the context. What is your point? 20:19:46 madnificent: as often as my heart fancies 20:19:46 beach: you like the result, you said, the conditions for an optimum have changed now. Would you still try to reach a new standard in the same way. It will likely yield different results. 20:19:57 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-149-93.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:13 Summermute66: If your only point is that the result of this particular committee is not what you would have preferred, I am afraid there is no point in discussing this further. 20:20:27 beach: I was just making the point that while (1) CL as a standard is very good (2) CL as a standard document is probably even better (Go Guy Steele) - CL is very much a mish mash of competing Lisp versions and has plenty of (1) warts and (2) directions one might take one way or another depending on the lang one was trying to design/evolve. Nothing controversial here. 20:20:48 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-149-93.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:56 madnificent: I didn't say I like the result. I said the document has high quality. 20:21:47 beach: my interest stays the same. How would you prefer the new language to be constructed. As in: what would you make the people interested do, if the new design was up to you. 20:21:56 Summermute66: No, you were *not* making that point before, but merely saying you didn't want the next standard to be the result of a committee. But thanks for clearing that out. 20:21:58 madnificent: It's exactly *because* Lisp isn't as big as it used to be that there's a decent chance we might get a really nice "serious" new version of it - CLtL3 or otherwise. 20:22:10 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 20:22:58 madnificent: I think my point is that it is too early to talk about a new "standard". I think the approach should be to develop the new lisp, expose it to the community, use it for a while, roll feedback into it over a couple/few versions. Then, when there is a significant user base and the language has settled down, then and only then should standardization be considered. 20:22:59 beach: yes, the document is *extremely* high quality. i really like guy steele's (with harbison) publication on the C standard as well. 20:23:04 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:19 Summermute66: the previous versions have been serious. I understand and appreciate your statements so far as it might've been less messy. But it is an honourable standard with loads and loads of features imho. A great many of other languages, however they have been created, have far less to show off 20:23:19 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-232-152.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:23:57 madnificent: I am nowhere near as smart as the people who wrote the CL standard. I can think of a few things that I would have done differently, but I am pretty sure that if I were to write the standard, the number of things that other would do differently would be *much* higher. 20:24:09 beach: you find me one soul who thinks the CLtL2 committee came up with all exact "right" tradeoffs, and I'll gladly buy you a beer :-) 20:24:12 tmh: something like a git repository, and loads of lispers hacking on it? Continously pulling/pushing things in/out of the language... then seeing how it evolves? 20:24:37 Summermute66: "cltl2 committee"? 20:24:55 beach: but I'm still interested in how you would structure the process differently (not specific langauge things, but how would you structure the team around the process). 20:25:06 Summermute66: That's beside the point. The point is, can you do it better, or can you find someone to do it better? I doubt it! 20:25:15 beach: tmh explained some form of linguistic evolution, which is one of many possibilities 20:25:20 madnificent: I have no idea! 20:25:22 tmh: btw: I like that idea a lot 20:25:27 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@91.151.140.4] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:25:34 beach: oh -_-, I didn't think that 20:25:42 goddamned, I missed c|mell again, didn't know he was online 20:25:53 madnificent: not loads of lispers hacking on it, just a few, maybe half a dozen. There should be loads of lisp users using it reporting back to the core hackers things that don't work at all, things that could work differently and things that aren't present. 20:26:55 tmh: how would you decide what to throw out of the current language? 20:27:11 madnificent and beach: I think we're all running around a bit of the quality of current standard CL and the committee that created it; the high quality of the CL spec document wholly aside from the the CL language itself; how might the next version of CL (best) be created/evolved. At least three issues, unhappily related from a point of having a discussion in short phrases :-) 20:27:53 -!- Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has left #lisp 20:28:08 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:21 Summermute66: I actually have no interest in what went wrong previously. I initially cared about how the new language was being developped (assuming there was loads and loads of users interest in it), and secondly what a good way to design a language could be 20:29:36 metasyntax` [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:37 stassats: I refer to just about anything following the Lisp popularized by CLtL2 as "CLtL2" even if I'm sure it's NOT the right terminology. Some folks here know I haven't seriously even looked at Lisp since roughly 1994, so most of what i know is very dated anyway. Feel free to educate me. It's large what I'm here for. Not to just learn specific things, but to get a "feel for the territory." 20:30:06 madnificent: I have some prototype ideas about what I would like in a successor to CL, but in general, it's not much different from CL. Furthermore, I'm not educated enough in computer science to know if what I want even makes sense. 20:30:14 I think it is *way* too easy to criticize the works of others, especially by someone who hasn't attempted the work himself or herself. I have a *huge* amount of respect for people like Kent Pitman or Scott McKay who actually created quite reasonable specifications, especially given the knowledge they had and the constraints they had to work with. 20:31:21 tmh: which is why I (now) think it would be good to have some limited amount of people to be responsible for the new language. They could then accept or deny your proposals. 20:32:43 Summermute66: However, you were very specific a while ago, that you thought the committee idea was bad, and I took that to mean that you thought the result they came up with was low quality. Now you seem to be saying the contrary. Also, if what they came up with is actually high quality, how can we conclude that a committee is not the best way to do the next version? 20:33:07 beach: Old comment, but re: "doing it better" hang around MIT for a while and you won't (necessarily) feel so "less-smart-than" :-) Or maybe I said, then you can decide for yourself. (Weather is nicest in Spring by a mile) 20:33:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-197.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:33:23 manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d037bd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:46 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-64.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:47 madnificent: Then you've missed my point. I see no point in formally designating some group of people as responsible for the follow on to CL. I'd rather see a few informal groups working on their own version and people would voluntarily contribute to the one that was appealing. Over time, one or more would gain market share and then be a candidate for standardization. 20:34:04 Summermute66: ok then, i just wanted to say that cltl2, the book itself, wasn't written by a committee 20:34:44 Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 20:34:45 Summermute66: beach is a professor at Bordeaux. I don't think hanging around MIT would change his opinion of himself much. 20:34:48 tmh: I interpreted your point as being like that. I personally thought it could be a good idea to have a limited set of persons to split worst parts of it 20:35:13 has anyone used cl-graph for simple graphs? 20:35:25 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:35:35 sellout: You got that right. 20:35:37 Alright! Enough chatting, I have a pet project to work on. :-) 20:35:49 have fun tmh 20:35:54 MORE CODE 20:36:08 Yay! 20:36:09 tmh: your answers were the most informative btw 20:36:12 otherwise, Re: cl-graph - can someone explain what this documentation might mean? --> ( make-graph < graph-type > &key &allow-other-keys ) 20:36:29 *tmh* thanks madnificent 20:36:29 what is ? (it's either or ) 20:36:29 cid [n=cid@77-20-240-37-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:36:45 beach: some really, really educated and hard working professionals design just HORRIBLE looking clothes and shoes every year. No need to cut "professionals" any breaks. Sometimes they produce; more often they simply DON'T. 20:36:50 type of the graph? it's hard to say without context 20:36:57 Shamwow: Got a link to the docs? 20:36:57 Summermute66: Your point seems to be that this particular committee came up with a result that you didn't like, but then that would be even more risky if it were done by a single person, unless that person was you of course. 20:37:00 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.145.68] has quit ["humhum"] 20:37:04 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-graph/documentation/cl-graph-package/generic-efunction-make--graph.html 20:37:05 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:37:13 is there something like C's getch() function for lisp which will read a key input without echoing and without waiting for a newline? 20:37:27 Shamwow: It looks like it's a symbol, then the rest of the args are determined by what type of graph it is. 20:37:47 cid: that depends on the terminal you use 20:37:56 sellout: I'm not sure how to provide a 20:38:00 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:38:01 clhs read-char 20:38:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_cha.htm 20:38:08 would it be (make-graph 'symbol)? 20:38:11 Shamwow: 'symbol 20:38:15 Shamwow: yeah 20:38:17 beach: just to qualify - doc/very good; lang/reasoable compromise, but not stellar as languages go. Does that clarify? 20:38:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:38:34 Summermute66: I maintain that the result of the committee is great. They defined a language that pushes the frontiers of what can be done as far as they knew how to do it without sacrificing efficiency. I can't see any individual doing a better job. 20:38:39 Shamwow: And you might want to M-. on make-graph in SLIME, and check out the methods. 20:39:00 I would have guessed that method was EQL-specialized, but it's not. 20:39:08 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-146-127.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:10 sellout: ;-) 20:39:18 So maybe there's a CASE somewhere in the method. 20:39:21 Summermute66: No, that does not clarify anything, other than your personal opinions about the langauge, and I don't see how that gives me any information on how to do it better without a committee. 20:39:36 beach: could you imagine a differently structured group to form a better result? (eg: one that tries to be less compatible with the past) 20:40:01 sellout: M-. that's a great one I didn't know :) 20:40:10 madnificent: Maybe I could, but that would require some serious thought on my part, which I am not used to :) 20:40:34 beach: :P I seriously wondered if you thought it could yield better results or not. 20:40:46 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:40:59 beach: also, I think Summermute66 is trying to put his finger on that subject 20:41:01 -!- poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/poe] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:03 beach: We'll, i've had the chance to party and study plenty in Cambridge and my opinion of the output of the "genius factory" is mixed - not bad, but mixed :-) 20:41:15 madnificient, now compatibility would nowhere near be the same kind of a problem it was then. 20:41:16 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 20:41:22 madnificent: Possibly, but I think it would depend on lots of things. I think they did a fine job that I can't even start to imagine doing better myself. 20:41:58 deepfire: yes, it was a theoretical question. At the time, that would've been impossible, I think. Even now, it could be hard. 20:42:09 madnificient, now you have what -- islisp and CL. Then you had a number of quite divergent lisps. 20:42:10 Summermute66: I have understood that. What I haven't understood is how this gives you the authority to declare that it would be better without a committee. 20:42:25 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:42:39 ASau`` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:42:54 Summermute66: do you perhaps mean: better than a committee in the form it was back then? 20:43:21 Summermute66: And as I have repeated many times, I think it is *way* too easy to criticize the works of others, especially by someone who hasn't attempted that work himself or herself. 20:43:22 deepfire: you're saying that being compatible is less hard, not less important? 20:43:40 Summermute66: Write a new standard and I'll promise to read it and criticize it. 20:43:44 madnificient, less hard, yes. No statement on importance. 20:43:59 deepfire: tab-complete my name please :P 20:44:03 beach: my last job before I got sick was as CEO of a roughly 85 person company. My official modus operandi for dealing with committees and their members is to listen to them and then fire them if they 1) say something I think is really stupid or 2) have a fit if i ignore their opinion. 20:44:04 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.216.165] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 20:44:09 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:44:11 deepfire: and yes, I think you are right... I'm no expert though 20:44:33 madnificent, oh, sorry :-) 20:44:36 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:44:39 Summermute66: Am I supposed to be impressed by that, and therefore conclude that the CL committee did a bad job? 20:44:52 deepfire: np, I'd start to miss your comments sometime soon though 20:44:56 beach: In summary - I doubt we will EVER see eye to eye on the nature and/or general value of just about any committee that has ever or will ever exist :-) It's not a problem - takes all kinds in life. 20:45:04 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:26 Summermute66: I wish you good luck with your next CL standard. 20:45:30 Summermute66: examples don't proove a theory 20:45:47 beach: quite risky, he might give you 1000 pages of rubbish :P 20:45:54 Summermute66: For what it's worth, I don't agree with your employer policies either. I live in a much more civilized country. 20:46:18 madnificent: I am betting this won't be the case from the discussion I have seen so far. 20:46:52 -!- ASau`` is now known as ASau 20:47:58 beach, can I pm you? 20:48:09 deepfire: Sure! 20:48:48 beach: I'm more likely to be waiting for yours until some very strange twist of fate comes my way. 20:49:10 hey, be nice to each other 20:49:28 Summermute66: Oh, but I never claimed the current standard is bad, nor that I would be remotely capable of doing anything better. 20:49:49 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 20:50:13 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 20:50:22 I missed part of the conversation; but why people keep tamlking about new standards? we set standards, some people violate them, then we say let's adopt the standards to the need of the people, hence new standards and after a while people violate them again and we go round and round... 20:50:33 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:35 francogrex: And then you have people criticizing standards without any evidence that they could have made a better one. 20:51:54 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-149-93.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:22 beach: yes ok; but some will always be disasstisfied with the current adopted pocedures 20:52:39 so what? we cannot keep changing to please everybody 20:52:50 please me! 20:52:56 it will never happen 20:53:00 francogrex: that's also a nice take on the problem 20:53:28 madnificent: I make a parallel with standard operating procedures at work 20:53:45 francogrex: I think it might evolve too slow, no? 20:53:48 francogrex: Indeed, but I feel those people need to be told that they are unreasonable. 20:54:19 beach: if we're still worrying about this, I believe (could be wrong) I stated above that the circumstances surrounding CL2 were very different than exist today. When you look at the history leading up to CL2 (whatever it's official name), it's remarkable that a final standard was produced at all. So in that sense, you are perfectly right - NO, I do not think I could have done better under *those* circusmstances. In fact, I wouldn't have desired to partic 20:54:50 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12400.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:57 Summermute66: Thank you for confirming that. 20:55:53 madnificent: I guess, over time when many many people notice that the current procedures are no longer fit for the reality on the ground then it will naturally change. 20:56:11 Summermute66: So in fact, you have *no* evidence whatsoever that the fact that it was a committee was bad, in fact you confirm that the result was good, so I have no reason to find it credible to want a different organization next time. 20:56:14 Summermute66, your message was cut due to IRC, ending on "In fact, I wouldn't have desired to partic" 20:56:33 deepfire: ipate in that committee. 20:56:58 beach: on writing a standard, it's a deal. I'm busy with another language and I do feel free to borrow from other languages (C's hardware architecture driven floating pt. ops vs. CL's highly specified operator behavior). But one of these days, I do intend to crank out my "tsc" (tiny scheme). 20:57:16 beach: but given the _different_ circomstances, a different structure could be better, no? 20:57:20 deepfire: And that is even more typical. In order to be able to criticize the works of other, you must make sure that you would not want to participate it in in the first place. 20:57:48 Summermute66: Good luck to you then. 20:57:53 imagine that we would still have around the old law of the king of England mating the first night with any newly wedded woman... 20:58:21 beach: not "impressed" - trust me, it was just a "job" and just part of the "job" 20:58:23 madnificent: It could. I am just not smart enough to see if that is the case, and if so, in what way. 20:58:33 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:58:39 those laws are old and gone, and I imagine it would happen the same with any law that doesn't fit the reality anymore 20:58:57 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 20:59:04 francogrex: I don't think they will adapt the language for it, they will choose a different one. Given the amount of lisp stuff being developped, I'd guess on a non-lisp-like language. It could mean that the language which you wanted to see updated simply dies. 20:59:12 in the age of internet setting a standard doesn't happen through committees and discussion, but through results and marketing appealing enough for a critical mass that will spread it and keep it alive 20:59:31 incf attila_lendvai 20:59:48 madnificent: yes very possble 20:59:54 beach: I live in a country with a GDP that dwarf's yours - who cares? Let's not make this personal if not necessary. 21:00:24 beach: you just received a drawf! cool! 21:00:49 Summermute66: I don't belive in GDP as a measure of quality of life; only as a measure of waste. 21:01:35 beach, Summermute66: don't you both understand what the other person had to say about it, doesn't that kind-of end the discussion? 21:01:57 Summermute66, the public debt of your said country dwarfs anything, sure. 21:02:42 Q: Is there a built-in macro for allowing one to iterate over all pairs of elements of a list? 21:03:02 <_3b> (loop for (a b) on list by 'cddr ...) ? 21:03:05 Shamwow: (loop for (foo bar) on baz by #'cddr ... 21:03:20 madnificent: yes, given the different circumstances, a "committee" will not likely (that's a real prediction) will not produce the next widely used Lisp should there ever be one. 21:03:33 Shamwow: if the question means "all possible pairs" rather than "all adjacent pairs": no 21:03:34 madnificent: It does, but Summermute66 came here with very specific ideas ("why don't you just throw in the towel"), and I think that is not only rude, but also suggests some conviction of his knowing more than the rest of us. I think that is worth a challenge. 21:03:44 Krystof: yes - all possible pairs 21:04:04 all... 2-element permutations, I guess 21:04:21 Krystof, wasn't there something like that in alexandria? 21:04:29 *_3b* wonders if one of the set functions could be tricked into doing that with the :test option 21:04:45 madnificent: It is likely that I am not as smart as Summermute66, but I do have an advantage, namely a solid scientific training, and I can immediately see that what Summermute66 is doing has no basis whatsoever in science. 21:04:55 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:11 beach: perhaps it should never ever be about whom is the smartest 21:05:12 madnificent: yes, I think beach and i could sit down, have a good time and then respectfully disagree on some issues. As it should be, really, between pretty much any two people. 21:05:23 I was thinking that I'd have to use a nested loop, or somesuch... 21:05:35 Science? 21:05:44 Shamwow, look in alexandria, you might find something there. 21:06:02 beach: at least in the big amount of discussions which I've had (most of them being in real life) the person trying to show his greatnes, falls down together with it 21:06:02 Was the development of the various smalltalk generations at Smalltalk "science"? 21:06:04 are people playing around solving problems on project euler? I still have the idea of creating a project where the prize is won not but getting the answer right, but by how elegant tghe solution was. 21:06:18 Summermute66: could be :) 21:06:25 Was cobbling together C to build Unix, the shell and system software "science" 21:06:33 deepfire: thanks 21:06:35 Summermute66: Yes, the conclusion that because CL is not what you want and CL was designed by a committee, then it follows that languages should not be designes by committees. 21:06:44 (to remove a little the intensity of the current debate) 21:06:54 <_3b> (intersection list list :test (lambda (a b) ... nil)) ? 21:06:59 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:01 From the point of view of "successful software" it's quite arguable that science sucks. (NO, I DON'T BELIEVE THIS) 21:07:09 deepfire: I don't know, but the answer to Shamwow's question is "no, there is no built-in macro" 21:07:10 francogrex: cool, I know a task 21:07:18 _3b: that looks close... 21:07:30 Krystof: if not built-in, then something simple that comes to mind 21:07:37 madnificent: This is why I always assume that I am the least smart person in the crowd, so I have nothing to prove. 21:07:43 madnificent: give us (by the way I'm solving problem 59) 21:07:56 <_3b> Shamwow: probably better to use something with a name that matches what you want to do though :) 21:07:58 francogrex: I was hoping you wouldn't ask actually -_- 21:08:07 Shamwow: (loop for (x . rest) on list do (loop for y in rest (frob x y))) 21:08:10 _3b: I'll write up a nifty macro :) 21:08:12 then consider that I was joking 21:08:21 francogrex: let me make something up by the next time I see you :P Feel free to ask me if you still refused to forget it 21:08:36 The "scientists" at IBM came up with what would later become SQL and a couple of yahoo's turned it into a product (the research team thought that totally impractical on the hardware of the day). So look - Codd/Date are "cool" in their way and Larry Ellison and his team were "cool" inanother way. 21:08:38 well go head, let's see 21:08:45 Krystof: that was my first idea, but wanted to make sure someone else thought it was sane/not overlooking something. Thanks 21:08:46 phf [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:07 The creation of good software clearly has a very scientific and very "non-scientific" aspect to it? 21:09:16 <_3b> Summermute66: they are off topic though, talk about lisp please 21:09:20 Am I saying anything everyone doesn't already know? 21:10:03 Summermute66: You really like unscientific reasoning don't you. This time it is "a scientist at IBM came up with X which sucks, so scientific reasoning is bad". 21:10:12 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 21:10:14 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.182.62.5] has left #lisp 21:10:45 Summermute66: we really have to work on your reasoning capabilities. 21:10:54 can we work on them somewhere else? 21:11:00 francogrex [n=user@91.182.62.5] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 Summermute66: And I would like that over a beer, or more likely over a good glass of Bordeaux red. 21:11:21 i agree with Krystof 21:11:24 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:11:54 Krystof: Yes, we could. Thanks for pointing that out. I expected Summermute66 to be kicked a while ago, but that didn't happen. 21:12:17 though i have to say, science and pure hacking have their own important roles in developing 'stuff'. i like to think of formalization loops 21:12:28 is franz's open source uri library portable, and is it going to replace puri in the set of generally approved libraries eventually? 21:12:42 sometimes scientists come up with a new theory, it gets built, maybe scrapped, maybe forgotten 21:12:51 sometimes the good parts stay alive 21:13:01 *beach* apologizes to everyone for contributing to this pointless discussion. 21:13:13 beach: you couldn't be further from the truth actually, i just happen to think that good software (even languages) is a right/left brain cooperation. i don't think that's too philistine a view. 21:13:32 phf: puri is the portable version of franz's library(Portable URI) :D 21:13:37 and when new ideas come to life outside of academia and research communities, they are afterwards formalized in academia 21:13:38 *beach* refrains from answering 21:14:06 *madnificent* takes comfort in that and gets ready for some sleep 21:14:10 How can I suppress warning about redefining of a function in common lisp? 21:14:30 people should just read a lot more research papers :/ 21:14:33 StanleyD: i would think this is implemantation specific 21:15:00 guaqua: agrred but where? on common lisp itself? 21:15:06 So would anyone know how to do that in LispWorks? :) 21:15:20 I have a subscriotion to some nice computer journals 21:15:30 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-65-122.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:31 stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:15:31 *Shamwow* thanks all for help and returns to pet project 21:15:33 -!- Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has left #lisp 21:15:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:17:07 is there a repository for the lisp stuff on the language shootout page? (http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/) 21:17:15 StanleyD, (handler-bind ((style-warning (lambda (c) (muffle-warning c)))) (defun test ())) ;; should work, IIRC .. just create a macro if you end up doing that often 21:17:40 beach: " Krystof: Yes, we could. Thanks for pointing that out. I expected Summermute66 to be kicked a while ago, but that didn't happen." Why the hell wouldn't YOU get kicked off? Because you like the CL2 comittee? Give me a break. I actually wrote a commercial CL (commercial flop) in the early 1990's. Special place in hell for arrogancy professors. 21:17:57 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA6D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:23 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["terrible sacrifice of reboot"] 21:18:28 <_3b> Summermute66: because beach can take a hint and stop being off topic 21:18:43 I *was* asking about ASDF documentation. 21:18:49 <_3b> Summermute66: also, which CL? 21:19:12 attila_lendvai: nope. 21:19:30 fe[nl]ix: oh, i thought franz opensourced uri recently with intent of making it portable and generally useful. is puri the same codebase as uri with a portability layer? 21:19:32 It was CLtL2 minus CLOS packaged as a DLL/VBX for embedding the then newfangled Windoze machines 21:20:01 Still small working sets, but in the MB's, not KB's 21:20:05 pkhuong, too bad. there should be a common-lisp.net project for it with a public repo the maintainers of the shootout can pull regularly... 21:20:07 It was called LinkLisp 21:20:08 <_3b> Summermute66: did you find http://www.cliki.net/asdf and http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/manual.html ? 21:20:25 Summermute66: I don't think anyone should be kicked or banned. But maybe it's a good idea not be too insistant and go against the spirit of the majority of users here and especially against the established standards (ie being off topic for too long); that is not to say however that you cannot express yourself 21:21:16 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:21:44 phf: yes. franz didn't release URI now, they only added it to github when previously was only available from their site 21:21:51 There used to be stuff about it on the net, but I stopped googling for it long, long ago. it seems only the Navy and a few other miliary clients were interested - and that wasn't enough to pay the bills. But I am proud that for a 33mhz 486 chip and a carefully written byte code compiler, it kicked the crap out of most other implementations/machines on the Gabriel Benchmarks. 21:21:55 Hey guys, does anyone know how to rotate text in McCLIM? a transform doesn't seem to work for me 21:22:20 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-072-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:23:09 viro`haz2d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-67-166.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:20 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:30 -!- gbt [n=Who@91.110.150.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:25:46 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["sleepy time"] 21:25:50 madnificent: Back to your original question on Lisp-N, many things are different today: out of the limelight; no lisp box vendors; only a tiny number of very economically weak software vendors; very likely little or even no representation will show up for the few important CL applications left over (Macsyma); expert systems have things like Jess in java, so there's no longer a "natural domain" for the Lisp language. 21:26:29 Given all this, we all agree Lisp has MANY strengths as a general purpose langauge. 21:28:14 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-146-127.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:44 Is there a straightforward way to read/write clos objects from/to a file? 21:29:04 So as with Stephen Gould's (rest in peace) periodic evolution theory, some group will pick up the pieces of CL or Scheme and "update the language" to their needs. It's hard to say what would be kept and left behind in such a scenario - lisp-1/2, scheme style lexical syntax or lisp style symbols, eval?, primary compiler/interpreter semantics, module system (probably). You get the idea - it's really very hard to say. 21:29:16 clhs make-load-form 21:29:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm 21:30:03 stassats`: nice, thanks 21:30:14 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:30:24 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:26 Clojure (the JVM) might not be it, but it's an example of the kind of "small world" innovation that will (hopefully) start a little firestorm and give us all the next "real lisp" to follow the generations we've already known. 21:30:51 Sikander, or maybe http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-store/ or something .. depends a bit on what you want really 21:31:39 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:39 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:44 lnostdal: thanks, I'll check it out 21:31:56 _3b: Got the docs, thanks! Now I have to try to learn this under emacs/slime/ccl and hope it all works ;-) 21:32:14 Hi Sikander, have you seen my latest commits? 21:33:13 LiamH: Latest I saw was from Nov 1. Is that correct? 21:33:25 No, yesterday. 21:33:29 <_3b> Summermute66: feel free to ask specific questions if you have problems, but try to keep the long philosphical discussions elsewhere please :) 21:33:51 We really need something like #offtopic is for #kernelnewbies. 21:33:57 Ah, just got it. I'll have a look. 21:33:58 <_3b> like #lispcafe ? 21:34:26 Sikander: I think FFTs are pretty much done. I'm working on the tests now. It is very hard tracing through the C abstractions to figure out how the tests work. 21:34:32 <_3b> (at least i think that was the original goal, seems to have merged with #cl-gardeners recently) 21:34:35 Ain't as popular as #offtopic is. 21:34:51 <_3b> well, not like there are that many people who actually talk here :) 21:35:07 LiamH: Yes, I had the same experience. They abstract everything behind terrible, terrible c macros. 21:35:32 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-65-122.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 21:35:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-74.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:35:51 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-147-247.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:05 Given the amount of traffic on a Sunday afternoon, #lispcafe might not be such a bad idea. 21:36:07 Sikander: I asked here about a macroexpand for C, and was told about gcc -E. However, that doesn't do much good in this case; whatever they do, the preprocessor just loads up all the .h files but the body looks the same. 21:36:09 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:34 If the body is the same it means that there's no macros in the body! 21:37:38 LiamH: Hum, that's strange. I did get a bit farther with -E, but it still sucks in the readability department. 21:37:43 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:53 take a look and see if gcc -E output is finding itself in some other file - it should look *very* different from the original. 21:37:54 Notice that gcc -E only expands cpp macros. Perhaps you'd want elpp? 21:38:18 http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/~ali/elpp/elpp.el http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/~ali/elpp/elppc.el 21:38:32 Sikander: But then I figured out that I don't really care what FUNCTION(fft_signal,real_noise) expands to, because it's used and referenced the same way. 21:38:35 and http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/~ali/elpp/cgen.el 21:38:47 rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:31 hm,so .. anyone know anything about this? .. i'm using a typecase in an inlined function; http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.general/2655 .. and the return value types of even deleted code seems to cause trouble 21:39:43 bombshelter13___ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:05 pjb: Maybe that's right, looks interesting. 21:40:27 lnostdal: yup, confirmed. 21:40:28 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-234-59.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:38 I'm just looking to expand C macros, no C++ at all. 21:40:41 pkhuong, ok 21:40:42 :) 21:40:43 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:57 LiamH: elpp is an emacs lisp pre processor. 21:41:12 LiamH: hum, I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but ok 21:41:14 LiamH: instead of writing crude "macros" in cpp, you can write real macros in emacs lisp ;-) 21:41:23 pjb: We're looking to expand cpp macros 21:41:53 In that case, gcc -E is the thing. Just be sure to include the definitions of the macros. 21:42:04 Yup. 21:42:52 Sikander: So you do you use gcc -E on say fft/test_real_source.c? Evidently I've got it wrong. 21:43:00 how 21:43:05 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:43:10 Yes, it works somewhat 21:43:11 wait 21:45:24 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:49 m4dnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:45:56 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:46 -!- viro`haz2d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-67-166.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:09 LiamH: gcc -E probably tells you templates_on.h is missing 21:48:34 Sikander: I don't recall seeing that; I got a complete output but it looked like it was a file with all .h files recursively inserted, and then pretty much exactly the C source that was in the original (though I may have missed something). But it's quite possible I missed the necessary definitions so that it would do the expansion correctly.. 21:49:44 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-114-152.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:50:05 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:13 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:26 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:44 so if i'm copying one stream into another, read-sequence/write-sequence into a buffer array is generally a way to go? 21:51:46 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:47 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:27 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 21:52:57 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-74.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:52:58 LiamH: Hum, weird, I tried this a week ago, fiddled around and got farther than I get now. Wait a sec, lemme try to remember what I did (and search my history maybe) 21:53:47 Sikander: OK. I'm continuing to work through it by hand. Once you figure out how things are organized it's not too bad. 21:53:47 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:54:16 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 21:54:36 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:54:49 LiamH: I hate working through things by hand... :) 21:57:50 LiamH: Oh I remember. test_real_source.c is a header file (yes, it's crazy, but it is). You need to run gcc -E on test.c 21:57:55 can i use a slot values writer method to have side-effect on other slot values when it is changed, i'm finding it hard to find an example writer 21:57:56 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:57:59 so gcc -E test.c 21:58:16 Sikander: OK, I'll try that. 21:58:29 Guthur: Sure. 21:58:31 LiamH: You might need to do gcc -I. -E fft/test.c 21:59:00 test.c:20:20: error: config.h: No such file or directory 21:59:00 test.c:50:26: error: templates_on.h: No such file or directory 21:59:00 test.c:56:27: error: templates_off.h: No such file or directory 21:59:26 LiamH: First run ./configure in the gsl root dir 21:59:33 LiamH: then run gcc -I. -E fft/test.c 21:59:35 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:40 Sikander: Hmm, thought I had that already. 21:59:41 beach great cheers, is there any special form for method, i see now examples in CLHS 21:59:47 for/for the 21:59:53 now/no 21:59:56 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-3-216.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:00 LiamH: Where are you running gcc -E from? Which dir? 22:00:12 Oops: configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables 22:00:14 <_3b> Guthur: writers are just normal generic functions, define them as usual 22:00:20 Sikander: in fft 22:00:33 LiamH: Oh, then try gcc -I.. -E test.c 22:00:39 <_3b> Guthur: you probably want to not put a :writer or :accessor in the defclass in that case though 22:00:57 _3b why? 22:01:20 <_3b> Guthur: because you want to define your own, instead of using the ones defclass would define 22:01:43 Sikander: That looks great! 22:01:46 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 22:01:47 <_3b> alternately, you can use an :around or :after method on the defclass defined writer 22:01:56 LiamH: Yep. Long though. I was working through that 22:02:24 LiamH: But I don't quite understand tests in GSLL, so maybe you want to finish it? 22:02:24 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 22:02:26 <_3b> or :before i suppose, depending on what constraints you want to enforce 22:02:32 -!- Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-42-198.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 22:03:03 <_3b> Guthur: if you problem with defining methods that work with SETF? 22:03:05 Sikander: I am just starting the FFT tests. 22:03:17 <_3b> *is that your problem 22:04:05 _3b no sorry was reading something, it says writers etc, are unqualified, does that not mean it doesn't have :after etc 22:04:15 LiamH: Ah, right. So how do I add them to the tests? I didn't understand any of this auto-generated stuff. 22:04:16 Sikander: I'm working on test_real_radix2 22:05:04 <_3b> Guthur: from reading the linked glossary entries, sounds like that is correct 22:05:05 Sikander: I'll do it, but I need the forms first. I see what you've done for fft-pulse-test, and I will add those, but I want to get the GSL tests as well. 22:05:54 LiamH: I understand. Shall I just write some forms for those tests? 22:06:01 i'll try a few experiments and see, cheers all 22:06:26 LiamH: and in the tests, do you want to use the wrapper functions, or the generic ones? 22:06:49 LiamH pasted "(fft-pulse-test 'single-float 128)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90010 22:07:00 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 22:07:33 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:07:47 Sikander: No contribution refused! I use generic functions because they are meant to serve as examples, and that's what users should use (they are exported). 22:07:49 *Sikander* is compiling GSLL... 22:08:33 LiamH: It might make sense to use the generic ones in the test, since they are then "tested" as well (since they should call the appropriate function) 22:08:48 Sikander: Agreed. 22:09:14 LiamH: Hmm, I get the same result for the pulse test, but am not convinced it is the correct output. Hold on 22:10:33 LiamH: No, it seems correct 22:10:44 LiamH: My memory is bad 22:11:09 *Sikander* means his biological memory, not his RAM. 22:11:15 Sikander: Good. All the pulse tests look essentially like that. 22:11:30 LiamH: I guess the complex ones look different...? 22:11:55 Sikander: Not really, they have those numbers for the real part, and essentially 0 for the imaginary part. 22:12:02 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.80.161] has joined #lisp 22:13:01 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:03 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-147-247.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:13:53 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-148-128.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:55 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Success] 22:13:58 LiamH: Yes, but the second half of the complex ones looks like the first half (except for the first item), and reversed. 22:14:03 -!- bombshelter13___ [n=bombshel@CPE004005ca19db-CM000f211fd04a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:14:10 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 22:14:32 Sikander: Oh, OK, I didn't look that far, just the first few elements :-) 22:14:59 LiamH: Regardless, I tested it against the C code and checked it. The output looks OK, so "it works". 22:15:14 Sikander: Good! 22:15:39 LiamH: Great, so now only the test forms and ffts in GSLL can go "stable"? 22:15:44 (or master) 22:15:47 Sikander: I'm getting confused about the unpack functions. 22:16:01 LiamH: What seems to be the problem? 22:16:08 Sikander: Yeah, I'll make some tests and then pull into master. 22:16:32 LiamH: Woohoo, my first contribution to a cl project! 22:16:45 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:17:12 (even though you rewrote it in a nicer way :) 22:17:23 Sikander: Somehow, my unpack function is not doing the right thing. 22:17:31 LiamH: Lemme check 22:18:03 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12400.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:06 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:20:41 viro`haz2d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-149-246.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:41 Sikander: I messed up; my equiv of fft_signal_real_noise returns complex vectors, should return real vectors. Grr. 22:21:14 LiamH: Hum. 22:21:36 LiamH: Your generic unpack function also doesn't seem to pass on the vector. But the specific unpack function seems to work fine 22:21:57 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 22:22:18 Where is fft_signal_real_noise defined? When I expand test.c I don't see the definition, only the prototype. 22:22:46 *LiamH* must expand signals_source.c 22:23:03 or is that too really a header file? 22:23:12 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:23:41 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 22:24:28 Here we go: gcc -I.. -E signals_source.c -o signals_source.mc 22:24:34 No 22:24:35 LiamH: unpack fixed and pushed 22:24:40 gcc -I.. -E signals.c -o signals.mc 22:24:55 Wait, what's the problem specifically? 22:25:11 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-3-216.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 22:26:21 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-197.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:27:01 LiamH pasted "Port GSL's test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90011 22:27:04 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:33 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:24 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-142-231.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:59 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:11 LiamH: What is forward-discrete-fourier-transform? Do you mean forward-fourier-transform? 22:32:22 *Sikander* is referring to the recent paste. 22:32:35 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 22:33:04 Sikander: No; if you have the latest pull it's in discrete.lisp. Apparently GSL has "hidden" DFT routines that are used for the tests. 22:33:38 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-064-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:50 LiamH: Where is discrete.lisp?! 22:34:07 Sikander: Ah maybe I don't have it committed yet. 22:34:16 LiamH: I see it in tests 22:34:24 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:34:42 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-148-128.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:34:48 LiamH: But it's not exported or so? If I try out your paste (in-package :gsl), it complains. 22:36:10 Sikander: Try a fresh pull, I just committed. 22:36:51 Sikander: You should see discrete.lisp. 22:37:23 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:37:29 LiamH: I see it 22:37:32 What are the two of you working on, and is it ready for other people to attempt to use it yet? 22:37:45 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:38:12 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 22:38:15 nyef: Port of GSL's FFT routines. Yes, it should be usable, we're trying to get the tests working. 22:39:24 Sikander: I think I accidentally pulled FFT into master. Oh well, it should be good. 22:39:47 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-69-48.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:52 LiamH: Well, it's close to ready, right? 22:40:10 LiamH: I see in the test, it's trying to unpack a complex double array 22:40:17 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:25 Yeah, it works, the pulse test looks good! I just want to add some tests to gsll-tests. 22:41:00 Sikander: It should be a real that's unpacked, shouldn't it? 22:41:14 If anyone would like to do timing tests vs bordeaux-fft, I would be interested in the results 22:41:33 A full port rather than anything FFI-based? 22:41:36 LiamH: Yes, the data that is fft'd should be real, to unpack 22:41:39 -!- viro`haz2d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-149-246.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:41:42 nyef: ffi-based 22:41:49 *LiamH* fears GSL will lose. GSL's FFT routines are not noted for their speed. 22:41:50 Ah. Okay. 22:41:53 nyef: but lisp-ified 22:42:30 Yeah, they're slow, but I'm just interested because of the pure lisp bordeaux ones (they are pure lisp, right?) 22:43:05 See how slow C fft compares to fast lisp fft.. 22:43:30 "bordeaux" brings to mind "bordeaux threads", is it a threaded FFt implementation? 22:44:18 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:44:52 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-69-48.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:31 Dunno, haven't looked at them yet. 22:45:52 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:02 LiamH: Is there a reason why in fft-signal+real-noise data is a complex? 22:46:09 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-69-48.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:13 redline6561 [n=redline@70.159.109.248] has joined #lisp 22:46:21 Sikander: I'm trying to figure that out now. 22:47:29 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:47:49 LiamH: Wait, the question probably should be, why you're trying to unpack 22:47:57 manuel__ [n=manuel@krlh-4d0352d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:12 OK, I see my misunderstanding. When they make "data", it is a double[] with consecutive elements I presume being real and imaginary. 22:48:30 I made it a complex 22:48:57 LiamH: That's no problem. 22:48:58 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.80] has joined #lisp 22:49:05 LiamH: They just don't unpack the returned value 22:49:30 LiamH: They unpack real_data into complex_data 22:49:47 Sikander: I'm at the start, not the unpack. 22:50:13 Should make-urand-vector make a real or complex vector? 22:50:47 It's supposed to mimic fft_signal_real_noise if you "macroexpand" signals.c. 22:50:58 LiamH: It's complex 22:51:13 LiamH: fft-signal+real-noise seems to be fine. 22:51:16 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-69-48.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:26 LiamH: The problem lies in the fact that you try to unpack the fft'd result 22:51:27 Sikander: The C version has double data[] 22:51:43 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:51:48 Sikander: I put an unpack in their because they do. 22:51:51 there 22:51:51 LiamH: That's how gsl stores complex values. 22:52:01 LiamH: They unpack real_data into complex_data 22:52:17 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-69-48.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:18 LiamH: fft-signal+real-noise apparently makes complex_data 22:52:28 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-142-231.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:52:31 Sikander: Yes, it does, but it shouldn't. 22:52:39 It should make real. 22:52:39 LiamH: Wait 22:52:42 No 22:53:02 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 22:53:03 LiamH: We're both looking at signals.c, right? 22:53:14 The macroexpanded version. 22:53:33 line 3049 has fft_signal_real_noise 22:53:37 Yes 22:53:48 double data[] 22:53:52 LiamH: Yes 22:53:53 = real, no? 22:54:02 LiamH: No 22:54:15 pretend real? 22:54:27 LiamH: see how they do a urand in one element, and a 0.0 in the following, and put this in a for loop 22:54:36 indeed 22:54:46 LiamH: it's a double[], but that's their way of making complex arrays 22:55:00 Right. Mine too. 22:55:00 real imag real imag and so on 22:55:09 -!- cvandusen [n=user@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:55:18 So that function returns a complex array, and the fft'd complex array. 22:55:21 So I need to make a twice-as-long real array and do the same thing. 22:55:22 No unpacking necessary 22:55:38 LiamH: Why?! Why do you want to make it a real array? 22:55:47 LiamH: It's a complex array 22:55:53 But then I'm not testing the same thing they are, I'm testing the complex fft, not the real one? 22:56:16 LiamH: Are you looking in test.c? 22:56:23 yeah 22:56:24 LiamH: There, they test the real and the complex ones 22:56:39 -!- cid [n=cid@77-20-240-37-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:56:59 Wait, I said that wrong, perhaps. 22:57:24 what they do is they first make the complex data and the complex fft thereof 22:57:47 OK 22:57:49 Then, in a for loop they copy the real components of the complex data into a real array 22:58:10 They fft that (using real fft) and compare the unpacked result to the complex fft they got earlier 22:58:39 Right? 22:59:01 you're ahead of me 22:59:03 So you are missing a step; you only generated the reference data 22:59:09 OK 22:59:26 We're looking at test_real_radix2, right? 22:59:33 Do you have test.c expanded? I'm looking at line 4251. 22:59:35 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-69-48.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:59:48 void test_real_func (size_t stride, size_t n) 22:59:51 I think 23:00:08 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@37pc222.sshunet.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:18 Ah, ok 23:00:29 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-69-48.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:34 Line numbers are different here (?!) 23:00:54 or maybe not. Yes, I originally was trying to port the first part of void FUNCTION(test_real,radix2) 23:01:04 in test_real_source.c 23:01:28 LiamH: I was looking at test_real_radix2, since that was what the name of the function in the paste was. 23:01:49 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:58 Sikander: Yeah, I think you're right. 23:02:51 ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:10 hi, is 64 bit SBCL faster than 32 bit? 23:03:35 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d037bd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:03:36 <_3b> ziga`: depends on what you are doing 23:03:56 LiamH: In the paste, where you place (original (copy data)) you should copy the real components from data into a new, real array. 23:04:23 LiamH: And that new array should be passed to forward-fourier-transform 23:04:30 _3b: I just found out all my dynamic libs are 32 bit and would have to recompile them to use with 64 bit sbcl - so I don't know if it's worth the effort 23:04:45 _3b: so generally no? 23:05:03 <_3b> i'd pick based on whether you needed (and have) more than 32 bits worth of ram or not 23:05:15 _3b: I see, thanks :) 23:05:48 <_3b> ziga`: see http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks/index for some comparisons though 23:05:57 is there exhaustive implementation of naggum's WHEREAS macro somewhere, including the (or null ...) trick and multiple-value-bind? 23:06:38 _3b: I'd tend to pick based on whether you want your fixnums bigger than 29 bits. 23:06:40 Sikander: OK. I'm trying to remember if there's a real part extractor for arrays. 23:06:56 <_3b> true, fixnum size and immediate single floats are good reasons too 23:07:05 LiamH: Oh, that would be cool. 23:07:05 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-96-246-69-48.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:41 LiamH: Is there a way to coerce a complex vector into a (twice as long) real vector or even 2d array? Because in the latter case, you could do a slice or stride thing 23:08:13 Sikander: Not from the CL side. 23:08:46 _3b: very nice plots, what is this? 23:09:00 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:09:00 LiamH: Theoretically, would it be difficult to make? I mean, the underlying data is still some c pointer, or not? 23:09:18 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.182.62.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:38 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:09:50 I think I'll use 32 bit, on mac os x it now builds 64 bit by default, that's how I ended with not working cffi bindings.. 23:10:06 Actually, the underlying data is probably identical. As long as data is being stored real0 im0 real1 im1..., the two forms are the same. 23:10:55 Sikander: I've got to take a short break here, I'll be back in a few minutes. 23:11:12 LiamH: Hum, I have to take a long break, since it's time to slee 23:11:14 p 23:11:52 LiamH: See you later then. I'll try to whip up some forms for the tests tomorrow or so. 23:12:02 Goodnight 23:12:12 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to sleep."] 23:13:38 <_3b> ziga`: you'd have to ask antifuchs about how boinkmarks stuff works, i only know it exists :) 23:20:27 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:36 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:21:16 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:59 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:16 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:24:33 fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:35 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 23:26:05 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 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[n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:16 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 23:36:05 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:36:48 good night 23:37:11 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06fd5e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["midnight dreary"] 23:37:37 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1279589180.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:38:13 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442850.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:38:21 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:38:36 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:36 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442850.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:41:03 fihi09` [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:41 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:22 jenia [n=jenia@96.23.172.148] has joined #lisp 23:46:42 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:53 hello. can anyone tell me what is the difference between format t and format nil 23:46:55 tanx 23:47:07 clhs format 23:47:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 23:47:27 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:35 tanx 23:47:49 clhs 22.3 23:47:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 23:48:07 search for "destination" 23:48:34 -!- rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:48:55 rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:04 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:49 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:54:50 -!- 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