00:01:13 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-166-8.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:01:41 Intertricity [i=Raz@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:58 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.129.77] has joined #lisp 00:03:22 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo5.252.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:19 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:42 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-125-163.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:47 C-c C-c will find the function boundaries at your point automatically 00:09:16 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:09:58 dlowe1: ah, hadn't noticed that. thanks. 00:10:17 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:14 well maybe I had, but forgot about that. :) 00:11:16 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:02 de_fault [n=de_fault@78.180.73.86] has joined #lisp 00:14:35 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 00:15:43 is anyone experienced with cl-opengl? 00:21:55 _3b` or xristos would be, I believe. 00:23:49 the problem is similar to this: http://www.mail-archive.com/cl-opengl-devel@common-lisp.net/msg00325.html 00:24:28 i already solved it using these information 00:24:33 but i am wondering 00:25:06 brill [n=brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 00:25:54 how can i set a hook to an opengl window close event to set cl-glut::*glut-initialized-p* to nil 00:26:17 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 00:26:29 -!- brill [n=brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 00:26:30 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:27:12 and should i set this hook at that point or set it to run before a call to an opengl window 00:27:44 the initialisation sequence must be executed once per process; the patch is doing it right. 00:27:58 (and sorry for the terms i use, i'm not a programmer, or i am a newbie programmer at most) 00:28:27 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:45 <_3b> you are having problems opening a new window without saving a core? 00:30:46 pkhuong: that may be a problem with the freeglut version i use, since i found some similar problems -which are not related to cl-opengl- on places like nvidia forums, but unfortunately it was the only version i could find that runs with cl-opengl 00:32:45 _3b: no, when i first run (cl-glut-examples:run-examples) they run successfully, but when i try the same after closing all windows, it gives that freeglut ERROR: Function called without first calling 'glutInit'. 00:33:06 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:07 <_3b> you can try http://3bb.cc/tmp/freeglut.dll i think that is the last one i used, but it is probably an old version 00:33:17 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-110-245.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:33:44 -!- Spaghett1ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo5.252.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:34:11 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo5.252.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:43 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@port-9216.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:55 <_3b> and is this problem with or without the patch (and which tree, mine or the darcs repo?) 00:35:41 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 00:36:17 _3b: i downloaded it with darcs from http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-opengl/darcs/cl-opengl/ 00:36:29 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:42 colin__ [n=colin@118-160-194-139.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:56 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:57 _3b: i'm sorry, which patch? 00:37:07 <_3b> in the response to the email you linked 00:38:32 -!- MrTree_ [n=marc@ip-88-153-48-155.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:01 -!- colin_ [n=colin@114-44-227-26.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:40:55 _3b: :) in fact i didn't see the response since i learnt how to solve this from a #lisp conversation between you, luis and some other guy, that page i linked was the link i found when i googled to show the similar problems two minutes ago, i didn't even see the response :) but i read it now, i'm going to swith to windows and try it now, thanks :) 00:42:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:03 -!- sg [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-gnrvxzujmmgfvzcr] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 00:44:32 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.251] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:44:45 _3b: by the way, i'm willing to use cl-opengl with cl-gtk2, would your version work with it? 00:44:46 sg [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-bqxbzsxqtdlvlvzx] has joined #lisp 00:45:19 <_3b> no idea, either should work if you can get a function to call to get gl extension functions pointers 00:45:36 <_3b> (assuming cl-gtk2 can set up an opengl window etc) 00:47:20 _3b: it has an extension to use opengl within the gtk window and works with the one from the original repo, so i wondered if there are big changes between yours and the other one 00:48:16 <_3b> any code that didnb't rely on bugs in the old cl-opengl should work on mine, (aside from mine checking for errors by default) i think 00:48:54 <_3b> my version supports gl3 and newer extensions 00:49:09 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229067091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 00:50:34 _3b: that's great :) i thought it was a port to some other os, so i didn't try it. i'm going to try it now, thanks so much. 00:50:58 <_3b> mostly it is just me not liking darcs, and being too lazy to get a common-lisp.net account :) 00:51:41 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 00:53:32 _3b: it would be great if you make a short note about your version to cliki page of cl-opengl at least :) 00:53:53 _3b: as i said, it seems like a good work 00:54:01 <_3b> yeah, probably a good idea 00:54:53 _3b: anyway, i can wait to see my problem solved, so i'm switching to that other os :) 00:55:04 _3b: thanks again 00:55:13 *_3b* wonders why cl-gtk2 gl example uses cl-glut too 00:56:00 _3b: i'm guessing: just for the teapot? 00:56:14 <_3b> i thought that was in glu? 00:56:30 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:56:35 <_3b> glut does windows and input, so shouldn't be needed if gtk is handling that 00:56:36 _3b: probably, i may be wrong. 00:57:10 <_3b> hmm, i guess it is using glut to draw a teapot, that's odd 00:57:16 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:57:28 <_3b> maybe i'm getting confused 00:57:54 _3b: no, that's really odd 00:58:15 <_3b> hmm, guess glut does do teapots 00:58:19 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-168-79.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:58:48 <_3b> still seems a bit silly to load another GUI abstraction layer just for the teapot and sphere :) 00:59:29 -!- de_fault [n=de_fault@78.180.73.86] has left #lisp 01:00:58 StrmSrfr [n=storm@adsl-233-122-82.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:20 ... 01:01:33 so basically closer-mop doesn't support abcl, right? 01:03:34 or, shall I rephrase, who wants to add abcl support to closer-mop with me? ;) 01:03:46 Spaghett1ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo5.252.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:31 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-226-47.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:48 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:05:22 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:05:36 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:14 setting the bar a little lower, how do I get emacs to re-indent the line on opening or closing parens 01:07:14 "why would you want to do this?" 01:07:35 statssats, the second part or the first part? 01:08:17 the emacs part 01:08:28 :) 01:08:55 well, I suppose I may have gotten ahead of myself and.... gotten ahead of myself 01:09:32 try C-j, it inserts a new line and indents 01:09:42 right 01:10:08 because new lines matter for indentation, not parenthesis 01:10:35 well, both, but 01:10:36 so I guess what I really want is to map my return key to the same command as C-j 01:11:13 ret isn't on the home row! 01:11:20 newline-and-indent, as I suspected 01:11:27 (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "RET") 'newline-and-indent) 01:11:28 C-h k 01:11:31 haha 01:11:35 to find out 01:11:36 Put that in your ~/.emacs 01:12:14 I haven't mapped the key labelled "caps lock" on my macbook pro to "control" just yet, so control-J isn't on the home row either ;) 01:12:35 ((also I use dvorak so j is never on the home row) 01:12:46 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 01:12:52 thanks dralston, I will do that 01:13:02 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.209.207] has joined #lisp 01:13:38 No worries. Dvorak! I've heard it's a lot nicer using dvorak, and I've always been curious. How do you like it? 01:14:55 well, personally, I love it, and I haven't had wrist pains since switching, but as a 'Scientist' I must admit that correlation does not imply causation 01:14:59 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 01:15:07 didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 01:15:30 it may be that the process of switching caused me to adopt a better posture 01:15:37 doesn't dvorak make it harder with the common apps shorcuts? 01:16:18 sg, could you be more specific? Remember, I'm trying to hold up a reputation as a "scientist" :) 01:16:52 as for as cut/copy/paste/undo goes (which is what immediately comes to mind), those aren't exactly easy to type on qwerty anyway 01:17:05 is there a way to get cl-opengl without darcs 01:17:15 i remember keybindings by their relative position 01:17:30 Guthur: yes! 01:17:33 StrmSrfr: and also things like firefox shortcuts, irssi ones, etc 01:17:37 Guthur: would git suit you? 01:17:48 stassats it would indeed very nicely 01:18:05 i would like to try dvorak but my brain is tied to where the shortcuts are in vim 01:18:06 Guthur: although it may involve getting somebody to send you the source. I'm afraid I must ask why you are opposed to darcs. 01:18:42 Guthur: http://github.com/3b/cl-opengl/ 01:18:46 <_3b> github lets you download tarballs i think, if you don't like git either 01:18:47 strmsrfr to be perfectly honest i'm adverse to yet another delivery system, plus the install borked 01:18:48 it's not actually the same 01:18:57 and lock a directory 01:19:22 oh 3b's thats fine peobable 01:19:23 stassats, sg, it is not so difficult for an agile mind to convert although my mind may be more agile than most 01:19:43 _3b i like git 01:19:43 "peobable"? 01:20:06 probably* 01:20:11 Guthur: your honesty is admired, but darcs is one of the best VCS I've seen... you should give it a shot ;) 01:20:14 StrmSrfr: i have agile wrists! 01:20:20 and sg 01:20:26 let me tell you 01:20:39 I am an Emacs Rebel 01:20:40 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:21:24 like you can surprise anyone here 01:21:38 StrmSrfr: there is only one thing in emacs i miss 01:21:41 slime 01:21:45 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 01:21:51 but i can't change now, too much years 01:22:04 it's weird that hjkl aren't next to each other, but it doesn't take much time at all (IME) to switch from having them next to each other to just being completely abstract 01:22:05 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:17 sg, you DO know about viper-mode, right? 01:22:35 it's like methadone? 01:22:35 StrmSrfr: yes, but i would have to customize a lot of other things 01:22:47 i don't really even use all the standard shortcuts in vim 01:22:49 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo5.252.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:22:58 yes, viper-mode is like methadone 01:23:01 for example i move between buffers with the irssi shorcuts 01:23:15 or so I'd assume; never done heroin as of yet 01:23:40 things like that, with enough time i've got plenty of custom rare shortcuts nobody would like to use 01:23:49 so customize, it's not a sin :) 01:23:51 but which i can't change 01:24:00 my brain is wired to them 01:24:09 sg: but rewiring your neurons is fun 01:24:24 stassats is right, but at the same time so what 01:24:49 you can use whatever keybindings you want 01:25:56 de_fault [n=de_fault@78.180.73.86] has joined #lisp 01:26:13 if you want to bind n (which is what gets input when I press the key marked 'L') to move right who's to stop you? 01:26:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 01:26:41 _3b: it works like a charm now, thanks :) 01:26:49 can i use the * or . shorcuts? 01:27:08 StrmSrfr: saneness? 01:27:21 (highlight current word, repeat last command) 01:27:35 stassats: are we sane, or are we programmers? 01:28:01 i'm neither! 01:28:11 lol 01:28:23 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.72] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:28:23 sg, no, never 01:29:36 _3b: in fact it solved some other problems: the list.lisp example was just a black screen with no objects in it, now it works as expected, and also there was an odd behavior in gtk-glext-demo of cl-gtk2, i was opening only after the second eval of (gtk-glext-demo:run), now, somehow, it is solved too. 01:30:17 Obviously I jest. I'm pretty sure it can be done. I doubt it would be very difficult. I'm sure a number of people here (smarter than I) could walk you through it. I could only do the first part (and then only provided a strict definition of "word") 01:30:42 <_3b> de_fault: yeah, the automatic error checking caught some bugs in the samples, so i cleaned them up a bit 01:31:10 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 01:31:43 stassats, if you are neither, what are you doing here? I'm pretty sure we require at least one of the two 01:31:49 or 0.75 at the least 01:32:06 _3b: btw, have you released your flash project 01:32:16 he is a expressionist 01:32:19 a/an 01:32:34 <_3b> not yet, i made the mistake of implementing tests, now i have to fix the bugs it found :p 01:33:13 StrmSrfr: on behalf of smarter people: it can be done 01:34:17 GurpMan [n=geezsain@sea-gw.practicepartner.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:25 -!- GurpMan [n=geezsain@sea-gw.practicepartner.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:34:41 _3b: are you planning to hide that, too. if so, asking you from time to time will be a better option than checking common-lisp.net or cliki :p 01:34:46 I have to admit: everytime someone says with confidence that something can be done, my mental world gets a little bit larger 01:34:51 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:34:53 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:35:09 <_3b> de_fault: it will probably be on my github page 01:35:20 but seriously, closer-mop, abcl, eh? eh? 01:35:23 <_3b> de_fault: feel free to bug me about it too though 01:35:54 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-171-232.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:59 btw, newliine-and-indent bind is working like a charm. I wish Java were ths simplee. 01:37:00 abcl has some problems with close, like not having define-method-combination, don't know about its mop state 01:37:19 yeah... I know abcl has some mop problems 01:37:34 but I can't even LOAD closer-mop in abcl on my work comp 01:38:06 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-179.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:38:14 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-179.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:18 -!- starek [n=digg@unaffiliated/romani] has left #lisp 01:38:40 maybe I am asking too much; I know next-to-nothing about abcl 01:39:33 well, closer-mop doesn't support abcl indeed 01:40:29 The bear is slightly disarmed. 01:41:00 _3b: i'll, in fact i do, already, but i'm too lazy to have a freenode account, so everytime i bug you about it, i probably have a different nick name :) 01:42:32 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:07 _3b: anyway i'm switching to windows to try my new opengl supported ueber common lisp environment:) but last question, would the redbook examples work if they are written in a closer way to original ones instead of using clos, or is that the way it is :) 01:43:38 <_3b> i think there is at least one example written without the clos layer 01:45:08 <_3b> looks like examples/mesademos/gears-raw.lisp is it 01:45:09 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:45:59 <_3b> you would probably want a nicer layer of some sort in between anyway though 01:46:14 <_3b> i suspect the callbacks and such would be annoying for intereactive dev 01:48:11 i believe define-method-combination is working now in ABCL.. but has other issues 01:49:24 it's not working, the long form of it 01:49:30 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.98.96] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:31 ah 01:49:45 thats be a show stopper 01:50:25 yeah, it can't load recent asdf because of it 01:50:42 _3b: yes, i skimmed all now and only that one is written that way, and that single one is enough to convince me to stick with the clos way ;) 01:50:51 well,sadly in this time zone it's way past time for bed 01:50:55 gnite all 01:51:48 -!- StrmSrfr [n=storm@adsl-233-122-82.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:52:23 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:54:37 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:54:44 _3b: anyway, i'm looking forward to try the flash layer, thanks for your help. 01:54:58 good night #lisp. 01:55:02 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 01:55:12 -!- de_fault [n=de_fault@78.180.73.86] has left #lisp 02:02:52 wpopx [i=cef01ac6@gateway/web/freenode/x-kfdfofzefadljxde] has joined #lisp 02:03:15 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:03:30 Hey there. Whip operating system do you guys think would work best for someone looking to get into Lisp development? I was thinking Ubuntu just because of the ease of installing stuff, but I'm not really sure. 02:03:34 *What 02:03:50 Ubuntu is alright 02:03:56 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:04:00 minion: tell wpopx about clbuild? 02:04:01 wpopx: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 02:04:02 wpopx, don't install any lisp-related packages 02:04:07 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:04:17 not sbcl, not emacs, definitely not cl-whatever or common-lisp-controller 02:04:28 not emacs? 02:04:58 stassats, it's some obsolete version and has some "emacs.d" that regenerates itself with every package update/reinstall etc. 02:05:04 it has lots of debian cruft in it 02:05:11 -!- Intertricity [i=Raz@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:13 Sweet! 02:05:34 So I guess then just pick whatever OS makes me happy and installing stuff through clbuild. Thanks! 02:05:35 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:40 *install 02:05:43 I cannot type today. 02:05:43 wpopx, recommend installing emacs to /opt/emacs-version and sbcl to /opt/sbcl-version 02:05:45 that's right, except windows 02:05:48 make some symlinks to /usr/bin and you're done 02:05:55 stassats: Who runs Windows? q: 02:06:02 windows users? 02:06:04 wpopx, most people using computers 02:06:16 which proves that windows is unsuitable for any purpose 02:06:20 weirdo: what a strange recommendation 02:06:29 "whenever you're on the side of the majority, it's time to reform" -- mark twain 02:06:33 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.73] has joined #lisp 02:06:36 stassats, about debian? 02:06:44 about /opt/ 02:06:50 Oh my. It seems I've started a fight. 02:06:57 wpopx, not really, be over soon 02:07:00 *wpopx* runs the other direction. 02:07:01 -!- wpopx [i=cef01ac6@gateway/web/freenode/x-kfdfofzefadljxde] has quit [Client Quit] 02:07:23 stassats, making a custom package for debian is... not for the faint-hearted 02:07:32 it requires a... changelog, and an empty file won't do 02:07:40 it requires whole lotsa' files with whole lotsa' boilerplate 02:07:49 tremolo [n=tremolo@adsl-99-173-26-41.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:56 i don't make it, i just install it to /usr/local/ 02:08:15 so why not fsck it and use /opt, which works the same since lisp doesn't presume stuff about prefixes like usual shit unix apps do? 02:08:27 the sbcl's defualt 02:08:36 stassats, yeah, and after installing a bunch of things to /usr/local it's a mess 02:08:37 -!- tremolo [n=tremolo@adsl-99-173-26-41.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 02:08:57 sometimes stuff won't even work until some files are deleted 02:09:08 mess in opt, or mess in /usr/local, what's the difference? 02:09:32 stassats, with /opt/package-version, there's no mess 02:09:43 it's not like installing everything with /opt itself as a prfix 02:11:13 if you want to play package manager, fine then 02:12:09 well having everything in the same prefix with no tracking which file belongs where is moar liek playing clusterfuck 02:12:09 and wpopx left, so this conversation is meaningless 02:14:17 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 02:18:24 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:11 weirdo: there's a gobolinux distro for you 02:20:14 *weirdo* has no distro 02:20:30 that explains 02:21:06 linux from scratch? 02:21:13 well, i'll have to write one eventually, since unix programs are so insistent upon having everything in one prefix 02:21:15 but for now, it works 02:21:19 dlowe1, yes 02:21:30 been a long time since I've been reminded of that :D 02:22:30 coew [i=cef01ac6@gateway/web/freenode/x-ucbszqspcmrsexqt] has joined #lisp 02:22:42 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:58 -!- coew [i=cef01ac6@gateway/web/freenode/x-ucbszqspcmrsexqt] has quit [Client Quit] 02:26:27 10 years ago when i said on irc i couldn't compile something people asked 'slackware?' and now they ask 'lfs?' 02:26:34 things have surely changed 02:27:37 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:28:26 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:30:03 weirdo-lunix? :) 02:30:09 hekar [n=hekar@67.204.33.77] has joined #lisp 02:30:30 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 02:32:27 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:33:20 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.212.86] has joined #lisp 02:34:12 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 02:36:16 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 02:45:35 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 02:47:55 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:55:54 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has left #lisp 03:00:59 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:11 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:01:28 weirdo: you didn't say "I couldn't compile something," you said "I have no distro." 03:01:31 :P 03:01:52 sorry guise 03:02:26 it's 36:02, which is kinda' late 03:02:36 and i can't comprehend your line of argument 03:05:51 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["trip!¡lite v1.03b"] 03:06:03 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:20 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.209.207] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:09:53 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.212.86] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:17:19 -!- felideon [n=felideon@74.186.235.232] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:21:36 vng [n=vng@123.20.6.190] has joined #lisp 03:22:01 hello 03:22:06 maus [n=maus@123.20.6.190] has joined #lisp 03:24:43 weirdo: 36:02? 03:25:20 p_l, a day passes between sleeping periods. how could it be otherwise? 03:25:29 hehehehehe 03:27:44 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:29:03 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:32:48 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:37:37 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@168.28.136.21] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:38:46 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:13 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:41:01 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:44:43 minion: logs 03:44:43 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 03:45:15 C-o-r-E [n=nash@modemcable194.43-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:45:34 minion: web 03:45:35 web: Web clients (web client), servers, application servers, browsers, etc. http://www.cliki.net/web 03:46:05 clhs ~X 03:46:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbe.htm 03:49:49 TDT [n=dthole@173-27-181-89.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:42 -!- Spaghett1ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo5.252.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:53:24 would somebody mind taking a look at some code? 03:53:45 new to lisp and not quite sure whats wrong 03:54:03 lisppaste: url 03:54:04 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 03:54:55 C-o-r-E pasted "dict1" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89928 03:56:11 the add method works but the function to print doesnt 03:56:25 -!- hekar [n=hekar@67.204.33.77] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:56:42 clisp says there is no applicable method 03:56:48 ugh, don't leave closing parentheses like this 03:57:06 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:57:12 and don't use _ as a seprator 03:57:13 sorry am not used to lisp conventions yet 03:57:35 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:57:49 that function name is supposed to be temporary :) 03:58:12 -!- vng [n=vng@123.20.6.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:58:15 <_3b> C-o-r-E: have you tried printing it directly? 03:58:34 how do you mean directly? 03:58:49 <_3b> (format t "~s" (dict-items foo)) or whatever 03:59:08 *C-o-r-E* gives it a try in repl mode 03:59:24 <_3b> i assume (dict-items ...) is what you pass to print-pair-lists 03:59:38 Hmm, for apply, lets say I have a function (defun foo (&rest n) (apply #'+ n)), that seems to be an issue - s there something in particular I'm missing on this? 03:59:54 C-o-r-E: print works if you pass it dict-items... 04:00:31 hraban_ [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 04:00:38 <_3b> p_l: does it? i'd have guessed add would be building the list wrong for it to work 04:00:53 TDT: what is the issue? 04:01:06 TDT: i can only think of call-arguments-limit issue 04:01:08 well it prints references to pair objects 04:01:08 <_3b> p_l: or do you mean cl:print instead of print-pair-list 04:01:13 print-pair-list 04:01:20 (print_pair_list (dict-items d)) 04:01:36 so you need to use (reduce #'+ n) 04:01:40 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 04:01:46 arbscht, stassats: Yeah, for some reason it's just outputting what I passed into it...which is kinda weird 04:02:13 what did you pass to it? 04:02:46 p_l: doesnt work for me... 04:02:52 triple checked 04:02:54 I'll put it up on paste, one sec 04:02:54 anyway, make sure you are doing what you think you are doing 04:03:11 <_3b> C-o-r-E: what do you expect to be in (dict-items ...) after you call add twice? 04:03:36 ah, sorry, I misread repl output ... too long without proper sleep ^^; 04:03:44 well i am adding pairs of strings 04:04:00 so dict-items is a list of pairs of strings 04:04:03 TDT pasted "&rest issue" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89929 04:04:09 ... nah, works. I really should return to regular sleeping... 04:04:14 <_3b> C-o-r-E: are you sure that is what it is? 04:04:22 <_3b> (as opposed to what you want it to be) 04:04:45 do you think add is not working? 04:05:05 TDT: you are doing something wrong 04:05:11 <_3b> it doesn't look like it should, though i haven't tried it 04:05:14 i am trying to make this function to be sure what is in there 04:05:15 like calling the wrong function, or something 04:05:20 because this definition is ok 04:05:22 TDT: works for me. do you have a stale definition, maybe? if not, what implementation etc? 04:05:32 or your + or apply are wrong 04:05:48 sbcl - hmm, yeah, I'd think this would be fine. I'll restart sbcl, maybe I mucked up something 04:06:01 what's ICC09? 04:06:01 oh wait, you're kidding me...that actually worked, I think..hahaha, oh that's awesome 04:06:05 OK I think I know what the deal is 04:06:11 presentation I'm giving tomorrow. 04:06:17 <_3b> C-o-r-E: are you using slime? 04:06:21 Iowa code camp 2009, it's my package, it just includes cl 04:06:29 _3b: nope, just clisp 04:06:31 ok then 04:06:41 I overridden + before to test something and that's what mucked it up, I'm like 99% sure of that, one sec 04:07:20 i am being summoned afk for a bit (ofcourse right after i get here) 04:07:24 will be back 04:07:54 wow that's awesome, yeah, it worked now - ok, now that's interesting. So it did actually override the package lock like I wanted. That's actually something I wanted to demo is the possibility to do that, so fantasic 04:08:01 I'll have to do that and just use multiplication instead 04:09:27 <_3b> anyone know how to write ((lambda (x)) 1) in actionscript 3? 04:09:51 what's NIL there? 04:10:25 null, i guess 04:10:35 <_3b> in as3 you mean? 04:10:44 yeah 04:11:12 <_3b> ah, i just want to call an anonymous function directly without storing it in a variable, specifics of the function don't matter 04:12:38 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.73] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:13:45 <_3b> ah, duh... i forgot a ; 04:13:47 vng [n=vng@123.20.6.190] has joined #lisp 04:14:08 <_3b> so it tried to pass the function to the return value of the previous line or something 04:15:51 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:16:39 hello 04:17:46 hello 04:17:54 please help me. How to loop objects in a list? 04:18:12 <_3b> (loop for object in list ...) 04:18:25 you mean make a cyclic list? 04:18:26 <_3b> (dolist (object list) ...) 04:18:38 Or you can write a recursive function too...there are so many ways to skin that cat maus 04:19:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:49 i mean i 'd like to list objects of a loop 04:19:50 redline6561 [n=redline@168.28.136.21] has joined #lisp 04:21:03 So you want it to just output what's in a list, or the type of object, ? 04:21:05 <_3b> (loop ... collect object) ? 04:22:28 -!- didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:23:32 (list (make-obj1) (make-obj2) ...) is equal with (list (loop... do (make-objx))? 04:23:57 (loop ... collect (make-obj x)) 04:24:35 Thank you, i'll try it 04:25:44 -!- sg [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-bqxbzsxqtdlvlvzx] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 04:27:16 -!- Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:28:09 what is collect use for? 04:28:09 -!- vng [n=vng@123.20.6.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:28:24 to collect items into a list 04:28:31 too late 04:30:46 stassats: Thank you! I made it. 04:31:07 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 04:32:10 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:28 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 04:34:54 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 04:35:10 minion: (+ 1 2 3 4 5) 04:35:10 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 04:37:38 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:37:40 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:39:13 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 04:39:18 good morning 04:39:38 -!- hsaliak_ [n=hsaliak@cm34.sigma72.maxonline.com.sg] has left #lisp 04:39:53 hi 04:41:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:50 goddamn clos rocks 04:45:14 crink: this channel doesn't have evaluation bot 04:45:31 oh i see 04:48:05 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:17 (and afaik there are no plans to introduce one, just use lisppaste and local emacs session) 04:50:58 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.21.49] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:08 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:53:31 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-233-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:55 minion: lisppaste 04:55:56 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 04:56:47 vng [n=vng@123.20.6.190] has joined #lisp 05:01:10 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-237-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:09 hekar [n=hekar@69.172.105.125] has joined #lisp 05:04:34 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:39 *p_l* has weird ideas to use CLOS method combinations as event handlers.. 05:07:48 _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.24.49] has joined #lisp 05:08:59 Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has joined #lisp 05:09:11 i have (loop for k ... collect (make-obj "hello")). How to use k as also the label of the object? Instead of "hello"? 05:09:45 i have (loop for k from 1 to 3 ... collect (make-obj "hello")). How to use k as also the label of the object? Instead of "hello"? 05:09:52 <_3b> collect (make-obj k) ? 05:10:05 <_3b> or maybe (make-obj (format nil "~a" k)) ? 05:10:25 okie, i'll try it 05:11:33 _3b: Thank you. I made it! 05:11:52 -!- vng [n=vng@123.20.6.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:13:58 since it's in a loop, write-to-string might be faster (format is big? ;-)) 05:14:37 <_3b> i wouldn't expect it to matter much, as long as the format string is constant at compile time 05:15:16 with SSC 05:15:18 <_3b> (and assuming same print-pretty settings in both cases) 05:16:21 I wonder if I should use format or write-to-string to generate code (from lisp object into textual C-like stuff)... If I tried using more dynamic approach to code generation it might actually mean something 05:16:58 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:09 <_3b> i'd probably use with-output-to-string 05:19:03 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 05:19:15 Still, pity that OpenCL doesn't have AST input for code generation 05:20:49 urg, where did they hide string-replace? 05:21:17 this way I have to create C code, then push it to clang which then compiles it into bytecode and then generates actual native code .... 05:21:32 <_3b> yeah, that looked like it would be annoying :( 05:21:37 <_3b> same problem with glsl 05:22:35 still, at least I've got a runtime that works even despite me not having some crazy videocard 05:22:59 <_3b> yeah, crazy video cards are fun though :) 05:23:48 <_3b> are you actually working on opencl stuff or just thinking about it? 05:24:08 _3b: right now I'm learning about it, having little time to actually implement 05:24:14 being homeless sucks 05:24:20 <_3b> heh, yep 05:25:10 however, I have some idea for OpenCL support and a certain weird project to play with :P 05:25:49 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-188-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:26:48 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-188-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 05:27:13 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.215] has joined #lisp 05:27:13 namely, port Starlisp to GPGPU ;-) 05:27:46 <_3b> yeah, that's what i want to do with it too, no time either though 05:30:49 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp068.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:32:41 how to use loop to create a 3x3 matrix? 05:33:38 maus the structure just? 05:33:43 don't use loop, but (make-array '(3 3)) 05:33:57 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:16 let me try 05:34:38 -!- hekar [n=hekar@69.172.105.125] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:54 Good morning! 05:35:59 Hello maus! 05:36:10 Hello beach! 05:37:18 I don't have linux , but http://cryopid.berlios.de/ looks like an image-dumping solution for e.g. ECL 05:38:56 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-179.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 05:44:56 how to use loop to create 3x3 objects? 05:45:04 You don't 05:45:27 You create the matrix just like stassats said (make-array '(3 3)). 05:45:31 maus - what didn't you like about MAKE-ARRAY ? 05:45:32 -!- _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.24.49] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:45:39 Then you can fill it with whatever you want using loop. 05:46:01 ayrnieu: I was under the impression that ECL can do save-lisp-and-die already, even if it requires slightly different approach 05:46:09 TDT pasted "Better way to improve this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89932 05:46:17 okie. I'll try it 05:46:24 With this post, I'm kinda running into an issue on the best way to do this recursively. 05:46:42 <_3b> TDT: s/list/cons/ ? 05:46:58 ayrnieu: no, i did not mean that. 05:48:23 _3b: Can append be used in this way with just cons? 05:48:50 <_3b> TDT: i meant in the first version, you'd probably need to swap the order of the args too though 05:51:46 _3b: Hmm, nice catch - I'll need to review on cons then, in this sense I look at it and think "hey, list", but interesting. 05:52:02 TDT - a really neat LOOP implementation of this is possible. 05:52:26 <_3b> yeah, writing it iteratively would probably be clearer 05:52:36 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-188-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:52 ayrnieu: Yeah, wrote one already for that - doing 3-4 different implementations for tomorrow's demo 05:53:29 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-69-221-161-215.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:54:25 _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.24.49] has joined #lisp 05:54:51 <_3b> hmm, clhs seems to be down :( 05:55:03 heh, one big reason why I download my stuff locally 05:55:38 -!- Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-42-198.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 05:56:55 kami-` [n=user@p5B20F647.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:55 here's another download link: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/hyperspec/clspec30.tgz 06:01:11 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has left #lisp 06:02:11 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@168.28.136.21] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:26 -!- _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.24.49] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:02:30 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 06:02:31 _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.24.49] has joined #lisp 06:02:40 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:02:47 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-226-47.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:03:36 _quasi_ [n=_quasi@122.170.24.49] has joined #lisp 06:03:36 -!- _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.24.49] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:37 -!- _quasi_ is now known as _quasi 06:03:47 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:10:54 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 06:12:26 -!- kami-` [n=user@p5B20F647.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:12:55 kami [n=user@p5B20F647.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:48 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 06:23:14 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:24:56 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:25:19 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 06:25:42 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:26:35 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:41 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:29:05 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:30:18 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-228-30.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:26 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-189-70.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:30:57 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:44 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-12-148.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:47 sup 06:42:00 wasn't there a lisp shell? fish or frog or something 06:44:52 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-20-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:30 clash 06:45:50 http://clisp.cons.org/clash.html 06:46:11 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-20-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:46:37 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has joined #lisp 06:48:00 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:51:06 viro`hazrd: on scheme side, there's also scsh, but it's more for scripting 06:52:14 ah ok 06:52:27 -!- TDT [n=dthole@173-27-181-89.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:52:34 great is not in my package manager 06:52:42 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-27-201.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:52:56 scsh is there 06:53:33 scsh has only this little problem of not working on 64bit machines, though someone might actually upgrade its Scheme48 copy 06:55:24 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:57:14 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:57:57 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:58:27 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.209] has joined #lisp 06:58:40 seems like on a heavily loaded machine, slime over screen takes an awfully long time doing unnecessary autocompletion when i hit the space bar 06:59:00 i don't really care for auto-completion, i just want to separate tokens; how can i disable this? 07:00:51 better yet, how can i send the result of stuff i evaluate in in editor buffer to the slime-inferior buffer for printing, instead of flashing briefly in the status bar 07:01:56 right now to be able to type any space without auto-completion freezing i need to type C-c C-c C-g SPC 07:02:21 which is a Konami key-chord I just discovered in slime :-/ 07:06:41 fusss - C-h k SPC to see what SPC is bound to. 07:07:12 fusss - an easier way to type a space without electricity: C-q SPC 07:07:20 (slime-space N) 07:07:35 YEAH! 07:07:39 thanks ayrnieu 07:07:56 is there somewhere these stuff are recommended? or is it all emacs-fu + slime sources? 07:08:03 as for evaluation in editor buffer, find what function corresponds to it and wrap it? so that it will send to whatever buffer you want 07:09:19 and I believe that it's all emacs-fu 07:09:26 lots of C-h 07:12:18 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:55 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.129.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:31 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:16:59 ... I wonder if there's some kind of metric on complexity of software and how high emacs is on its "hi score" list 07:17:56 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 07:18:05 (and is "I have my own documentation system?" a plus or a minus?) 07:18:22 -!- kami [n=user@p5B20F647.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:26 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:19:59 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:21 ayrnieu: I think "I require practice in using runtime introspection because there's no other way you remember all that stuff" definitely ups the score 07:23:16 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 07:27:26 the ironic thing is that when I think of stuff to change in Emacs it's all about adding even more :> 07:31:21 add to climacs instead :D 07:31:38 redblue [i=star@ppp015.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:32:36 Reaver [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:33:18 Ralith: I'd have to make an Elisp system for Climacs first :D 07:33:29 otherwise the task would become too big 07:33:31 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:33:47 p_l: nuuuuuuuuuu 07:34:21 hello 07:34:27 (require 'emacs) 07:35:05 sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 07:35:50 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 07:39:37 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has joined #lisp 07:43:17 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:44:33 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:47:44 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:09 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has joined #lisp 07:56:34 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:56:58 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:59:17 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:59:25 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:59:37 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:45 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:00:59 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:17 thermal_ [n=thermal@c-24-18-249-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:23 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 08:12:05 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:11 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has joined #lisp 08:12:46 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:20:28 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:27:18 c|mell [n=cmell@94-43-166-38.dsl.utg.ge] has joined #lisp 08:30:42 -!- mishoo_ is now known as mishoo 08:30:43 -!- _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.24.49] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:31:10 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has quit ["be back later"] 08:31:24 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.51.32] has joined #lisp 08:31:40 _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.24.49] has joined #lisp 08:32:08 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-vlrdhsoonkceovwo] has joined #lisp 08:33:27 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-32f5829099517b1b] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:33:28 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 08:37:04 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:31 -!- maus [n=maus@123.20.6.190] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:42:29 schopenhauer [n=schopenh@p1222-ipbf405kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:50:11 alexbobp_ [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 08:51:42 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:55:40 -!- alexbobp_ [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:59:01 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:59:17 -!- kerc [n=riise@31.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:00:46 -!- schopenhauer [n=schopenh@p1222-ipbf405kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 09:04:01 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 09:06:43 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.208.144] has joined #lisp 09:11:43 Intertricity [i=Raz@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:49 -!- reid06 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:12:06 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-1-190.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:12:11 rlarson82 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:24 hello 09:13:56 I've a question for parenscript: When now I call (ps (.require dojo. "dijit.Button")), parenscript alerts me with a warning: Symbol DOJO. contains one of '.[]' - this compound naming convention is no longer supported by Parenscript! 09:14:15 then it outputs "dojo.require('dijit.Button');" 09:14:44 so I think I should now write (ps ((slot-value dojo 'require) "dijit.Button")) 09:15:49 but what should I be supposed to do if I have to render "a.b.c.d.e.myFunc(someValue);" ? 09:17:32 auto answer: (with-sots a 'b 'c 'd' 'e 'my-func') 09:18:09 -!- _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.24.49] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:18:10 you can use (funcall (slot-value (slot-value ... 'e) 'my-func) some-value) 09:18:16 _quasi [n=_quasi@122.169.66.7] has joined #lisp 09:18:48 there are some helper macros, see tpd2.webapp for a less nasty helper macro for doing function calls 09:20:31 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.208.144] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:21:53 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:53 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:22:00 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:34 c|mell, (ps ((slot-value dojo 'require 'second 'boo) "dijit.Button")) -> "dojo.require.second.boo('dijit.Button');" 09:30:52 that it what I need 09:32:46 I think clojure-like macros, like (. something) and (.. something something something ) would be nicer than slot-value... 09:33:03 p_l, I agree 09:34:09 kiuma, not using funcall is very schemy and i complained a lot about it on the mailing list :) 09:35:35 trittweiler: just so you know: you forgot to increment version.lisp-expr in your commit yesterday 09:35:38 c|mell, but the problem is that if I don't need to touch the js expression the ps way is unnecerrary complex and verbose 09:35:39 (it happens to us all) 09:36:37 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:26 kiuma, yes this was discussed on the mailing list and there are some nice(?) or at least concise lispy macros to do what you want 09:37:35 see tpd2.webapp for an example 09:38:39 c|mell, where is it ? 09:41:29 kiuma, http://github.com/vii/teepeedee2/blob/master/src/webapp/js-library.lisp 09:42:02 thx 09:43:20 hmm... is there any manual regarding Symbolics Hardware, including assembly language? 09:44:53 Did you check lispm's website? 09:45:05 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:45:17 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:46:03 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:11 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-230-66.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 09:46:38 mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 09:46:51 tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:47:49 yes, it doesn't have anything specific... I guess I could try decompiling VLM 09:50:07 brb 09:53:56 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.215] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:35 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 09:56:00 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:00:30 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.38] has joined #lisp 10:06:32 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-58-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:33 perdix [n=perdix@f055098018.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:10:26 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 10:11:28 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-58-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:12:25 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-58-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:48 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:15:15 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:17:21 Take #umpteenth in my GUI quest. There's been some recent development in Qt and GTK. Have any of you tried either and can give a judgement? 10:17:30 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-58-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:57 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:18:17 Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-42-198.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:18:22 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-58-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:34 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-12-148.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:38 I believe lichtblau likes Qt. 10:19:44 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@94-43-166-38.dsl.utg.ge] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:52 What did you try in the past and what was the result? 10:20:03 cellsgtk, disaster. :-) 10:20:28 also, "Tk" and "feeling backbound" 10:20:52 I have an idea I want to make a quick prototype of, looking for the fastest language to do it in. 10:21:16 Is this an idea you can discuss? 10:23:19 Sure. I'm unsure I can formulate it very well, though. It sprung from a discussion in #stumpwm yesterday on being able to activate Pages in all applications from your window managar. a Page for an IRC client is a channel, for a web browser it's a tab, for an editor it's a buffer, for a screen it's a window, and so on. 10:23:34 cellsgtk is IMHO a bust, just getting Cells to work is a chore 10:24:20 tic: 1) make each page a window 2) create a new ICCM protocol to announce pages and switch 10:24:51 Anyhow, I thought about the most urgent case first, which is the web browser. Right now, I use my web browser's session as bookmarks. I don't use the regular bookmarks at all, and all pages I find interesting I have open in tabs in the browser. Now, that's not very convenient when the tab count goes up to 200+. 10:25:41 p_l, yeah, we talked about that. should be easy to make a proof-of-concept. for irssi, you could make a small plugin handling that, I think/hope. 10:25:53 tic: i recommend delicious.com 10:26:21 i used to do the whole tab-hell. nowadays i try to save stuff on delicious 10:26:59 tic: a possible approach would be to reuse what is done by pagers - make a "page pager" app and have pages-enabled apps "announce" their pages to it 10:28:18 c|mell [n=cmell@94-43-166-38.dsl.utg.ge] has joined #lisp 10:29:22 So, about the browser: I realized I group related tabs close to each other, and related groups in windows. I could instead group tabs into collections ("tag"), yes, sort-of like delicious. the backend storage isn't very interesting. What I want to do is a tab management thingy, which must be extremely low overhead for tasks like "group these pages together", "open all these pages", "zoom into one of these pages". Also, some pages should always be 10:29:53 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:29:54 p_l, do you have an example of such a pager, so I can look into their design? 10:30:31 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:30:58 The web browser would be somewhat similar to a ZUI. Some sessions would be live, some would be dead, but whenever I zoomed in they would refresh (or load) and there wouldn't be much of a difference. 10:31:06 bbiab. 10:32:31 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-27-221.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 10:32:41 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:33:27 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 10:33:44 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 10:38:19 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:39:18 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229081170.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:39:24 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32DE5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:56 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@94-43-166-38.dsl.utg.ge] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:40:11 p_l, meep? 10:40:43 tic: pagers are those little apps that show you layout of windows on multiple workspaces 10:40:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:41:24 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:42:00 p_l, aha. that doesn't require much explicit support in the app, other than NET_WM though? 10:42:53 tic: that's because most of the work is done by the window manager, as it is the one that knows about which window is on what workspace etc. 10:43:05 p_l, right. 10:44:01 -!- Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-42-198.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 10:44:15 so basically, you could add an extra property that would identify an app that supports, let's say, WM_PAGES protocol, and either use polling or have the apps send updates by themselves 10:45:03 Mhm. 10:48:09 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:52:17 Summermute66 [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has joined #lisp 10:54:42 -!- Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:54:47 Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has joined #lisp 10:57:19 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 11:01:06 -!- prip [n=_prip@host61-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:03:16 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:03:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:03:24 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:56 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:04:59 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 11:05:45 doesn't clbuild have the run and buildsbcl options anymore? 11:06:31 oh, nevermind. 11:10:01 -!- _quasi [n=_quasi@122.169.66.7] has quit [] 11:10:30 *tic* finds himself drawn to the dark side. :-( 11:10:38 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:12:57 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:13 prip [n=_prip@host179-24-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:16:10 bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-50-239.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:18:36 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:19:39 -!- mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [] 11:19:49 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 11:20:07 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 11:21:13 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:22:53 -!- bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-50-239.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28:30 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:31:48 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp015.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:39:15 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@64.71.152.39] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:12 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:44:09 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 11:44:34 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 11:45:06 -!- Reaver [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:47:01 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 11:52:31 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:36 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:58:04 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:58:10 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 11:58:26 simon___ [n=simon@d114254.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:33 -!- simon___ is now known as SimonAdameit 12:00:19 Hi 12:00:30 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 12:00:47 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 12:01:01 what is the best opensource lisp to use for ucw on mac osx snow leopard? 12:01:13 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BFDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:13 it needs thread support 12:02:38 minion, tell SimonAdameit about CCL 12:02:39 SimonAdameit: look at CCL: OpenMCL is now called Clozure Common Lisp (CCL). http://www.cliki.net/CCL 12:03:32 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32DE5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:31 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06f074.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:33 hello 12:07:01 Adlai: thanks 12:08:00 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.67.155.88] has quit [] 12:11:50 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:17:36 perdiy [n=perdix@f055119051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:19:48 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-138.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:20:52 ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-118.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:23 javuchi1 [n=javi@221.Red-88-15-47.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:27 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 12:21:40 hello 12:21:49 do you prefer CL or clojure? 12:22:24 CL ofcourse 12:22:31 join #clojure 12:22:36 can you elaborate ziga? 12:22:37 to get a different answer 12:22:39 :D 12:22:47 i was talking with them yesterday 12:22:54 CL is much more complete 12:23:31 with clojure you have to write in functional style 12:23:37 you have to use java 12:23:45 but on the other hand you can use java 12:23:56 with CL you can access C libraries 12:24:06 but the language is much more powerful 12:24:19 does CL support inmutable collections? 12:24:35 you have an OO system, imperative programming, functional style whatever 12:24:47 -!- prip [n=_prip@host179-24-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:24:57 javuchi1: I don't think so unless you code this yourself 12:25:19 is there a library providing so? 12:25:41 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:25:42 I never needed immutable stuff, but I needed OO system for instance.. different tools 12:25:43 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:25:49 javuchi1: I don't know 12:26:16 i say so because i feel it works better with concurrency 12:26:23 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:45 if you think it's important, use clojure by all means 12:27:02 it's easier to do guis also and to deploy apps 12:27:12 i'd use CL if there is a library or so supporting them 12:27:14 so if clojure is enough for you, use it 12:28:06 minion: tell javuchi1 about FSET 12:28:06 javuchi1: direct your attention towards FSET: FSet is a functional set-theoretic collections library by Scott L. http://www.cliki.net/FSET 12:28:20 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:28:21 there's an immutable collection library 12:28:34 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:05 interesting... 12:29:34 -!- perdiy is now known as perdix 12:30:09 what's interesting. that given a language that permits side-effects, you can implement something that doesn't use them? 12:30:50 cmm: is fset working well with concurrency? 12:32:31 javuchi1: I'd imagine it doesn't impede the concurrency in any way 12:32:56 where you get good concurrency in CL is a different question 12:32:57 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:34:07 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:34:50 prip [n=_prip@host234-124-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:39:49 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 12:45:18 -!- viro`haz1d is now known as viro`hazrd 12:48:13 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:51:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:32 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:52:35 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:53:43 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:53:51 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:55:27 chris2 [n=zhora@p5B168E25.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:23 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.128.167] has joined #lisp 13:00:34 -!- tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:01:27 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.81.87] has joined #lisp 13:03:13 tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:03:31 I have a process which takes up all cpu but I cannot even sigkill it 13:03:45 what can I do about it? 13:05:20 kill -9 $PID 13:05:49 possibly with a prefix sudo. 13:06:54 that's what I did already 13:07:47 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:08:56 -!- tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:09:27 rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.72.247] has joined #lisp 13:13:17 killall -9 13:13:34 is Clozure CL faster than SBCL? 13:13:57 only in compilation speed (for most things) 13:14:12 sbcl's generated code is usually faster 13:14:18 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:20 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 13:14:31 tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:16:25 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.247.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:16 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:59 sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:28 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:24:29 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.81.87] has left #lisp 13:27:04 javuchi1, I think CLOS method dispatch is faster on CCL 13:31:21 Patzy_ [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:35 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:52 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:32:29 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 13:33:03 is there a portable way to introspect the number of arguments to a defined function ? 13:35:51 billitch: there is a ported way 13:35:58 billitch: slime's arglist functionality 13:36:19 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:37:05 like (arity 'string=) => 2 13:37:23 brrh slime.. ? 13:37:38 billitch: What would be the answer in the presence of &rest and &key 13:38:12 well we could return the minimum arguments for the call not to fail or 2 values like min and (max or *) 13:38:23 what do you need it for? 13:39:07 i want to check a constructed call to operators i have defined is valid before the real error comes up 13:39:37 billitch: Write your own defun-like macro that stores that information. 13:39:45 oh good idea 13:40:05 i just thought introspection was better in CL ;) 13:40:25 thanks beach 13:40:27 It's implementation dependent. What implementation do you use? 13:40:30 No problem. 13:40:47 sbcl but i try to stay a bit portable 13:41:03 and minimalist 13:41:10 c|mell [n=cmell@host-85-114-234-141.adsl.caucasus.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:49 You could elaborate on what you're trying to do with it. Why don't you know the number of arguments at the time you construct the call? 13:42:54 Is this for a test suite? 13:43:46 no it's for parsing uri-templates 13:44:54 i can record the number of arguments at definition time like beach proposed but would have avoided to if the implementation already provided such introspection 13:45:10 or even better the CL spec 13:46:11 the CL spec does provide it but it does not require implementations to do so 13:46:50 you mean there is a special function to get the arity of a function ? 13:47:18 no to get the source definition of a function 13:48:09 ok, then it sounds simpler to just record the good number of arguments for the few defined operators i have 13:49:59 but thanks to macros it will be as simple as defun in the end =) 13:51:37 Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-42-198.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:52:14 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:33 -!- javuchi1 [n=javi@221.Red-88-15-47.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:53 benny` [n=benny@i577A03D7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:10 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A03D7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:07:07 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit ["A cow. 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[n=rastandy@93.144.72.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:31 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 14:50:17 G'morning all. 14:50:23 asn [n=110@gentoo/developer/asn] has joined #lisp 14:50:56 nyef: Hello 14:51:12 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@host-85-114-234-141.adsl.caucasus.net] has quit ["to tibilisi"] 14:51:37 -!- ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@fritz.lysator.liu.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:56:18 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:33 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:57:23 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@d114254.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:08 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-179.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:43 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.21.49] has joined #lisp 15:00:43 francogrex [n=user@179.95-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 15:01:19 Hi, in my sbcl when I have: (code-char 968) I get #\GREEK_SMALL_LETTER_PSI 15:01:20 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 15:01:32 but how can I actually "see" he character? 15:03:05 francogr` [n=user@179.95-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 15:03:17 sorry I was disconnedcted 15:03:29 -!- ASau is now known as Elvis 15:03:36 francogr`: (princ (code-char ...)) 15:03:38 so how can I see the character #\GREEK_SMALL_LETTER_PSI 15:03:38 -!- Elvis is now known as ASau 15:03:41 ok 15:03:43 *attila_lendvai* has the tickets to sbcl10 15:04:03 the character with code 968 cannot be encoded ! 15:04:22 Works for me. 15:05:07 francogr`: Perhaps you need to research "external formats" and set your LOCALE to something that supports unicode? 15:05:33 francog [n=user@179.95-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 15:05:42 i keep disconnecting! 15:05:51 beach so it didn't work 15:05:59 Works for me. 15:06:00 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:05 hmm 15:06:25 it says: encoding error on stream # 15:06:51 francog: Then listen to nyef; use an external format that supports unicode. 15:07:01 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 15:07:27 also set slime-net-encoding-system to 'unix-utf-8 15:07:38 nyef: sory I was logged out when you typed something for me 15:07:45 tcr: ok 15:08:01 it's just slime-net-coding-system 15:08:19 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.95.203] has joined #lisp 15:08:31 i'll try 15:09:27 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 15:09:49 now how can I kill the 2 francogrex clones? 15:10:14 msg nickserv help ghost 15:10:18 /msg nickserv ghost 15:10:43 -!- francogrex [n=user@179.95-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:10:52 great 15:11:24 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:15:24 My copy of Coders at Work arrived while I was out yesterday. ^_^ 15:17:50 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-34-153.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 15:19:21 hekar [n=hekar@69.172.111.155] has joined #lisp 15:21:00 nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:23:18 -!- francogr` [n=user@179.95-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:45 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-24-193-83-152.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:59 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-24-193-83-152.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:24:31 Hunh. The third item on the lisp reddit is arm-port-log. 15:25:24 What feeling does the sound "hunh" indicate? Also, how is it pronounced? 15:25:25 -!- hekar [n=hekar@69.172.111.155] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:09 Stunned amazement. Like "huh", but more nasal. 15:29:47 -!- francog [n=user@179.95-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:17 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:49 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-11-154.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:40 de_fault [n=de_fault@88.238.36.202] has joined #lisp 15:34:34 I see. Sort-of "what'd ya know?" 15:34:42 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:35:20 More stunned than that, I would think. 15:35:43 I think I got it, then. 15:35:44 udzinari [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:35:54 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-11-154.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:36:45 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-11-154.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:06 I have completed the postmodern store for weblocks and submitted it to the postmodern mailing list for review if anybody is interested. 15:40:08 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:20 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-144-215.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:40 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-147-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:20 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 15:43:45 _3b: last night we were confused about whether the glu or glut provide some primitive 3d objects, looks like they both provide some of them. from redbook: "GLUT includes several routines that create more complicated three-dimensional objects such as a sphere, a torus, and a teapot. This way, snapshots of program output can be interesting to look at. (Note that the OpenGL Utility Library, GLU, also has quadrics routines that create some of the same three-di 15:44:45 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:44:46 _3b: ups, not "primitive", sorry. 15:47:08 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:13 ThomasI [n=thomas@91-64-175-80-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:48:56 viro`haz2d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-59-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:26 I think there are problems with cp866 in sbcl, but I don't have any details now. 15:51:04 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:34 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:59 Except that when I take a file with an apparently valid cp866 string in it, and SBCL fails to encode some character, while writing to a :cp866 externally-encoded stream. 15:52:00 anyone know when apress will have the practical common lisp available again as a pdf? they've had "Free eBook is currently under maintenance. Sorry for the inconvenience." for weeks now it seems 15:52:21 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:52:23 nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:52:52 deepfire: the error you get should tell you which character it is 15:53:09 not just "some character" 15:53:23 confounds: You could just go ahead and buy the paper version. 15:53:39 -!- de_fault [n=de_fault@88.238.36.202] has left #lisp 15:55:05 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-11-154.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 15:55:24 -!- udzinari [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:55:24 beach: or you could go ahead and buy it for me 15:57:05 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-142-205.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:34 Why should he? 15:58:10 tcr: he suggested something obvious i could do. i thought it'd be best to respond in kind. ;) 15:58:12 tcr: Drop it! It won't lead anywhere! 15:58:26 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:58:54 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest11384 15:59:32 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:46 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:13 it's a quasi bait & switch apress is running by leaving a free book link that leads to a dead end, and which they seem to have no intention of acting on in any reasonable time 16:01:27 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-147-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:01:35 -!- Guest11384 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 16:02:09 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-142-205.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:00 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-142-205.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:05 They offered a pdf version for a short time. I concur that they probably do not have intentions. But you always can ask the author of the book who comes here regularly. 16:03:48 Though I'm with beach that you should probably just buy the paper book. 16:03:52 tcr: thanks, will do then. 16:04:52 I'd like them both, actually. But not pay for the book twice. (I already have the paper version) 16:06:51 -!- mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [] 16:07:16 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 16:07:39 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08:06 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-110-245.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:11:44 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 16:11:53 -!- viro`haz2d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-59-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:12:32 I am the first one to admit that editors are criminals in that they screw both the authors and the buyers, but I also see a lot of my students who have their priorities screwed up, in that they spend more money on cigarettes and gasoline than they would even imagin spending on books. 16:13:44 I do think we need a better system where authors can get better paid while still being recognized, and where prices come down. 16:14:01 "... But I need the gasoline in order to get to the bookstore!" 16:14:15 Nope, there is the tram and the bus. 16:14:43 Yeah, if you're within range of a mass transit system. 16:14:59 Of course, if they're your students they probably are. 16:15:18 -!- Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:30 And I'll admit to having spent more money on books than on gas yesterday, though it was a close thing. 16:15:37 look at the influence you have on them, beach! 16:15:40 They are. One of the best bookstores in France is located in the center of Bordeaux, right on a tram stop. Same line that goes to the university by the way. 16:15:55 beach: That is a funny thing about priorities. I remember when I was studying how the people that moaned the most about how swedish student loans was not enough money.. they also drank the most beer and bought the most pizza. 16:16:40 Just order books online? :) 16:16:44 schme: I can see that. Well, when I was a student, the loans were quite adequate. Plus, a little work on the side made life easiser. 16:16:48 *easier 16:16:58 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:17:07 beach: They were enough when I was one too. 16:17:29 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-146-241.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:40 I see. This doesn't stop some from complaining. 16:18:48 I guess I'm just old and grumpy :) 16:19:01 How old are you anyway? 16:19:04 29 16:19:06 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:34 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 16:22:32 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 16:22:32 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:04 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:23:27 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:06 udzinari [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:29:46 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-142-205.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:37 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:44 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 16:31:22 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.63] has joined #lisp 16:32:29 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-14-6.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:05 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:49 TDT [n=dthole@161.210.123.183] has joined #lisp 16:34:06 Ouch...well that was a low turnout on my presentation. 16:34:17 Had a whole 5 people attend my Common Lisp presentation just now 16:34:30 TDT: Where? What about? 16:34:43 beach: Iowa Code Camp - mostly just an introduction 16:34:54 but more trying to show "what's cool, here's where you find more info!" 16:35:33 TDT: Hmm, I see. Perhaps Iowa is like TLOTLWC in that there are only 10 lispers within a 3h flight? 16:35:38 The presentation itself was pretty good, I gave quite a bit of information and really made it interactive. 16:35:45 hah, yeah probably. 16:36:15 No one here used lisp more than just briefly reading about it, but one guy who did read some PAIP which I thought was kinda cool for not really being interested in Lisp. 16:36:51 The others...I really confused a lot of people I feel, but did my best to explain it. I totally didn't cover a lot of stuff because I got into explaining how stuff works too much. Uploading my slides/code right now though 16:37:02 Anyway, 5 is not to be considered a catastrophe. Your amplification factor will be adequate. 16:37:07 didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 16:37:37 -!- didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:37:52 is there a CL library for trivial configuration files 16:37:54 Yeah, the one thing I liked about having that few was it was a very nice gobetween for people. 16:38:10 Fare: Yes. chandler had some trivial-configuration-parser or something like that. 16:38:11 if possible in a semi-standard format, like windows ini or whatelse 16:38:21 Fare: I've been working on one to parse configuration files. Not sure about a "trivial" related one, but...I do have one, one sec 16:38:33 Dunno about windows ini files, but that'd be a trivial format to parse too. 16:38:35 fe[nl]ix made suggestions as to how XCVB should be configured the standard unix way, 16:38:42 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-15-97.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:38:58 and he convinced me 16:39:09 http://github.com/TheDarkTrumpet/cl-iniparser 16:39:52 minion: trivial-configuration-parser? 16:39:52 trivial-configuration-parser: trivial-configuration-parser is a trivial parser library for configuration files. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-configuration-parser 16:41:36 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:59 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:56 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-146-241.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:29 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:58 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-161.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:47:38 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Success] 16:47:38 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:47 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:47:59 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:48:30 mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 16:49:31 benny [n=benny@i577A1BAD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:38 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32DD76.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:49 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 16:50:01 -!- mstevens [n=michaels@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Client Quit] 16:50:28 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 16:52:20 thanks a lot 16:52:26 *Fare* pushes stuff on his TODO list 16:52:34 (which seems to only grow longer with time) 16:53:19 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:12 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:55:14 kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:21 the item I'm working on is a self-test suite for XCVB, as it's grown enough that surgery towards one feature sometimes breaks another feature (like the ASDF/POIU backend recently breaking as I am working on a new standalone backend) 16:56:47 Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has joined #lisp 16:57:29 *Fare* believes that test suites are essential to allow multiple people to work on a same project... including multiple instances of a same person with different context in the mental cache. 16:57:43 Summermute66 [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has joined #lisp 17:00:08 *LiamH* wishes C had macroexpand 17:00:15 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-171-232.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:25 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has quit [Client Quit] 17:00:36 Summermute66 [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has joined #lisp 17:00:40 ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has joined #lisp 17:00:49 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:01:03 LiamH: You can have some/most/all C compilers output the preprocessed code before compilation. 17:01:27 LiamH: I think C-IDEs including Emacs have a command for that 17:01:33 nyef: Really? It's gcc, there must be a flag. 17:01:51 Yeah, gcc definately can do it. 17:01:58 tcr: OK, I don't use a C IDE, unfortunately. 17:01:59 LiamH: gcc -E 17:02:20 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:21 LiamH: Or, you can use Lisp instead of C. 17:02:26 fe[nl]ix: Thanks. 17:03:09 *Fare* realizes that standalone executables don't work with latest cl-launch and latest ecl :-( 17:03:28 beach: I *am* using lisp; I'm trying to port GSL tests written in C to Lisp. I have to understand what the tests are first, and that involves heavily abstracted C. 17:03:59 LiamH: Ah, great! 17:04:16 A perfect opportunity to write a C preprocessor in Lisp! :-P 17:04:42 nyef: an opportunity for who? 17:04:56 And why not an entire compiler while you're at it? I always thought it was strange that gcc was written in C. 17:04:59 -!- Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:05:02 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 17:06:05 Fare: test suites are essential for quality 17:06:29 -!- ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:06:46 beach: It's just a simple matter of programming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_matter_of_programming 17:07:11 Newly written, perhaps shortly REPL-tested code contains 5 bugs per page or something like that for me. Dunno if that makes me sloppy 17:07:23 tcr: not when all the program fits in your head 17:07:32 tcr: of course, eventually it doesn't 17:07:40 and/or other people with other heads come 17:08:04 billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has joined #lisp 17:08:10 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:56 A programming fitting into the head conceptually does not mean that you had all the details in your head when you wrote it 17:09:03 s/programming/program 17:09:31 Adrinael_ [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 17:09:50 ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has joined #lisp 17:09:51 LiamH: Still, I am convinced that we need a Lisp library implementing the optimization methods described in the book of Muchnick. 17:10:15 beach: I'm not familiar with that book. 17:10:16 Muchnick? 17:10:19 beach: Perhaps that's something for me next summer? 17:10:22 Munchkin? 17:10:28 *Fare* sings "Welcome to Munchkin Land" 17:10:32 -!- ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has quit [Client Quit] 17:10:36 *sigh* 17:10:50 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:12 http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Compiler-Design-Implementation-Muchnick/dp/1558603204 17:11:21 (The next wave of programming methods: code hygenics. "Of course it's buggy! You didn't metaphorically [wash your hands|wash the surface|clean as you constructed|apply lacquer]!" 17:11:38 tcr: Excellent idea! 17:11:54 Unfortunately 'hygenics' isn't as impressive a word as it used to be.) 17:12:19 ayrnieu: reminds me of http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/07b915645de0cec7 17:13:24 I think such a library would have two advantages: 1. It would allow for several Lisp implementations to factor code (which I have been advocating for a long time), and 2. It would allow us to write better compilers for other languages in Lisp. 17:14:31 _jason553839 [n=thot@59-105-27-82.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 17:14:54 tcr: In fact, a better idea than your previous one. 17:15:12 gsharp or the other one? 17:15:21 the other one. 17:15:39 I know how to sell Gsharp. 17:15:40 well depends on your point of view, that other one might have been an opportunity to write a paper about :) 17:15:58 but I guess I'm young enough not to care about that 17:16:17 tcr: That's a point, yes. 17:16:46 ok, how? 17:17:08 Krystof: You didn't participate in our private conversation. 17:17:58 Krystof: tcr has some suggestions for evolving CL that might be publishable, but that are going to be a hard sell becaues it is not CL. 17:18:19 rajesh_ [n=rajesh@cpe-68-173-54-94.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:27 beach, sounds like a good idea. When do you start? 17:18:41 ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has joined #lisp 17:18:52 Fare: I have so many good ideas! Which one are you referring to? 17:18:55 beach, it's ok to publish and not sell 17:19:03 :) 17:19:17 beach: if it starts a discussion, isn't that good enough? 17:19:47 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:49 Fare: These days I like my research to be useful, at least potentially. 17:20:04 I was following the scheme standards mailing-list recently, and unhappily, while they are making slow progress, they are unlikely to offer a lisp usable to CLers any time soon. 17:20:05 madnificent: *sigh* I guess so. 17:20:12 beach, wasn't the case before? 17:20:23 beach: sorry, I meant "how do you sell Gsharp"? 17:20:38 you rebrand it as Aflat 17:20:40 Fare: Sure, you just haven't been around long enough! :) 17:20:41 beach: you want it to be accepted without any discussion? Or you want some way to make real money out of it, or? 17:20:42 not saying it's written in Lisp! :) 17:21:14 -!- DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:21 -!- TDT [n=dthole@161.210.123.183] has quit [] 17:21:23 (we are evaluating using gsharp for a project in my lab, but even with me there I'm not sure I can recommend it because it has too many bugs and not enough features) 17:21:43 Krystof: Gsharp is already recognized here as a very important research project. No problem selling it. I am sollicited several times a year to give presentations. 17:22:34 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:37 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:22:50 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:24 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:26 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 17:23:45 madnificent: I am definitely not looking to avoid discussions. I am also not trying to make money. 17:24:03 Krystof: How about you start reporting the bugs? 17:24:11 beach: is there an empasis on I in that? 17:24:27 madnificent: Not at all. 17:24:27 Maybe I should do a braille musuic transcriber for gsharp. 17:24:37 beach: then it would be nice to read about it :) 17:24:50 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-140-9.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:00 madnificent: about Gsharp? 17:25:03 I personally am totally not qualified to discuss any form of innovation in CL, yet I am interested to read about it over time 17:25:16 that too, actually (but google will help me there) 17:25:22 -!- Adrinael_ is now known as Adrinael 17:25:43 beach: "start"? I reported a number on 2007-08-19 17:25:45 or better 17:25:49 minion: Gsharp? 17:25:50 Gsharp: Gsharp is a graphical, interactive score editing application for standard Music notation. http://www.cliki.net/Gsharp 17:26:31 Krystof: You have got a point. Though, typically when I look for a bug in Gsharp, it is usually in McCLIM :( 17:27:24 Krystof: So are you saying that some kind of investment (or signs of such) on my part would impact a decision? 17:27:37 I don't think so 17:28:02 [I didn't think so] 17:28:06 I think the essential difference might be "gsharp as case study in software engineering" vs "gsharp as tool for dealing with musical notation" 17:28:31 the success criteria are markedly different 17:29:07 Indeed. So you (or your colleagues) are essentially saying "nice idea, but doesn't work". 17:29:31 "nice idea, but is not the path of least resistance" 17:29:54 That's better, because it was never meant to be. 17:30:14 "nice idea, but would require more investment to make it work for our purposes than other freely-available or commercial tools" 17:30:23 est-ce que pierre amassera mousse en roulant sur cette pente? 17:31:11 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.97.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:14 Krystof: That's a bit harder to accept, but not much. 17:32:17 -!- _jason553839 [n=thot@59-105-27-82.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [] 17:32:31 perhaps the most important issue is that of the uninformed desicion-makers :) 17:32:34 saying "it doesn't work" in the absolute is hard because its purpose is not explicit. I believe it currently does not work for construction of more than fragmentary musical scores, or for composition, or for printing usable scores; it does (just about) work for certain restricted interchange purposes (e.g. musicxml rendering) 17:32:55 and of course it works well as proof-of-concept of certain software engineering and algorithms techniques 17:33:04 (and UI techniques, etc) 17:33:41 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06d07c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:57 Krystof: Well, that's not quite the point though. The point is how much work it would take to make it work for such situations, compared to the inconveniences of working with other existing tools. 17:34:47 (and that's an interesting discussion, but right now, I am taking a dinner break). 17:34:48 *Fare* tries gsharp for the first time in years. Doesn't look very usable at first sight :-/ 17:35:28 have a nice meal beach 17:36:13 Fare: first sight is rarely a useful time to try to make a judgment 17:36:45 your statement is better rendered as "doesn't look very familiar at first sight" 17:37:19 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-14-6.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:34 Krystof, which is a barrier to entry 17:38:56 the bindings window is also cut too short, so the actual bindings don't show until I extend the window to the right 17:39:27 (the fonts don't look antialiased, but I suppose it's a general mcclim issue rather than gsharp issue) 17:40:27 supporting C-b C-f to move but not left/right is a bit disappointing. So I enter "emacs mode" in my head, but find that C-space doesn't work (and is displayed as C- in the error message) 17:40:46 where do I file bugs? 17:41:25 (there should probably be a "About Gsharp" item in the help menu) 17:41:41 is there a launchpad or something for gsharp? 17:41:50 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:53 Fare: I don't actually care about barriers to entry, nor about simple cosmetic bugs 17:42:06 and I certainly don't care about bug reports 17:42:29 at this stage in the project, bug reports are useless; fixes are interesting 17:43:26 (there's a devel mailing list) 17:43:58 that's not an attitude conducive to attractive users, and starting a feedback loop towards more contributors 17:44:57 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:45:06 I would strongly discourage anyone whose first reaction is to file bugs from becoming a gsharp user 17:45:28 because those bugs will not get fixed, and so the user will be wasting their time 17:45:37 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:49 _jason553839 [n=thot@59-105-27-82.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 17:45:50 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 17:46:01 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:17 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 17:46:34 to suggest otherwise would be dishonest 17:46:42 the contributors and users need not be the same persons 17:46:49 there are no contributors 17:46:53 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:09 but the user requests keep the contributors honest wrt whether their hacks are useful to the general public 17:47:27 well, thanks for your point of view 17:48:04 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 17:48:37 (lessons learned the hard way) 17:48:37 -!- rlonstei1 is now known as rlonstein 17:48:44 you seem to think that "filing bugs" is a contribution; in this context, it isn't, it is an imposition 17:49:29 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:49:31 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06f074.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:34 -!- ddp [n=ddp@65.255.53.171] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:52:42 -!- serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06d07c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:53 if the answer were "I don't have time to hack that, but if you look there you could fix it yourself, and in the meantime we'll record your desideratum", you might attract more contributors. 17:53:25 s/there// 17:54:34 yes, but on the balance of probabilities coupled with the lessons I have learnt the hard way, I think it more likely that I would be wasting my time 17:54:35 it's not an imposition if there's no gun against your head to force you to do it. 17:54:44 so please stop patronizing me 17:55:48 yes, it is: the imposition of _you_ expecting _me_ to do work so that _you_ can publish your desiderata. By all means use your own resources to record and publish them; that's the libertarian way, isn't it? 17:56:17 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:56:18 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-192.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:57:07 sure, but if such place is not the schelling point for other people to look at desiderata and exchange information on how/when/whether to fix them, the endeavour is mostly useless 17:57:30 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.95.203] has left #lisp 17:57:51 so only an active maintainer can bless such a publishing place 17:58:24 but if you're telling me that you'd bless a launchpad project I'd open, I could do the setting up for you. 17:58:40 there are no active maintainers 17:58:45 there you go. 18:00:03 you say that like you've proved something, but that was my point to start with 18:01:21 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:34 Sorry for provoking such a heated discussion. 18:02:03 heh, it's not your fault 18:02:27 I've been working all afternoon, not even on something interesting 18:03:07 Krystof: With your larger family, you should plan for weekends off, even though I know it's hard. 18:03:54 Fare: On a completely different subject, is there a date set for the next boston lisp meeting yet? 18:05:24 hum. Not. Probably early December. 18:05:27 *beach* plays some metal to calm him down. 18:05:27 beach: that's about the same thing as my HoD says, when simultaneously giving me more work 18:05:33 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:38 we have a speaker, though 18:06:10 Krystof: Sorry, I realized it sounded just like the advice of my wife, which is usually impossible to follow! Sorry again! 18:07:50 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 18:09:04 -!- _jason553839 [n=thot@59-105-27-82.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [] 18:09:18 Krystof: as far as unwelcome advice goes, I'd say that since your emotional involvement with gsharp seems much bigger than your time involvement, if your time involvement cannot increase, it might be soothing to decrease the emotional bond. 18:09:52 pfeyz [n=user@rrcs-24-103-113-122.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:53 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 18:10:27 oh, I'm only disappointed that I can't do more with gsharp; it's not that big a deal. The big deal is being patronized in public 18:10:34 Dawgmati` [n=user@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:43 Fare: I would seriously doubt that Krystof has any emotional involvement in Gsharp. Hell, I don't feel my involvement very emotional either. 18:10:53 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:11:36 I'm sorry that's how you take it. 18:15:13 in any case, I apologize if I appeared patronizing. 18:15:45 I know I'm the kind of guy who often speaks faster than he thinks. 18:16:02 and I know I'm grumpy :-/ 18:16:26 Fare: Speaking of which, what is your level of mastery of the Vietnamese language right now? 18:16:42 beach: I could beat a 2-year old! 18:17:01 maybe even a 3-year old 18:17:04 Hmm. Not good enough if I have questions. Oh, well! 18:17:19 to my great shame 18:17:34 Fare: I'll beat you in a few months! 18:17:38 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:45 starek [n=digg@unaffiliated/romani] has joined #lisp 18:20:04 you might *already* beat me 18:20:39 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:20:56 Fare: wrt reading, perhaps. But I have a hard time speaking. 18:21:07 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-64-220.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:22:53 until recently, I had trouble understanding the "resultative" orientation of the language 18:23:06 What is that? 18:23:35 Fare: But then, I cheat, in that I have this application that nobody seem to grasp the importance of. And so many of the people I correspond with think I know much more than I really do. 18:23:43 you know, with verbs being divided between action and result particle 18:23:58 reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-159-45.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:24:07 with things like "du+o+.c" denoting completion, for instance 18:24:19 I see, yes. 18:24:28 I don't have problems with that. 18:24:38 I wonder if there are applications to programming language design 18:24:57 starting from French, I had. Lists of words with translation my ass. 18:25:00 Good question! 18:25:04 there is no "translation" 18:25:18 or, the translation is not at the word level. 18:25:36 unlike french and english, for instance, that mostly share the same grammatical structure 18:25:45 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:25:52 Fare: I agree, and Vietnamese is my 5th language, so I am not that surprized. 18:25:59 and the "resultative" particles of english have just been grammatically grouped with the verb 18:26:47 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:11 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:21 beach: what's the fourth? (Swedish, English, French, ?, Vietnamese) 18:27:30 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:27:30 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-5-25.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:50 dc is interesting though in that it has multple usages (-able, passive form, etc). 18:28:01 Krystof: I can speak German. 18:28:03 you forgot the dd 18:28:06 (so did I) 18:28:19 Argh! Sorry! 18:28:45 impardonable! 18:29:02 Of course! My teacher would be shocked. 18:30:21 -!- felideon is now known as felideon_away 18:30:28 Fare: You know, learning Vietnamese this late in life makes it quite obvious to me how much the efficiency of learning depends on ones willingness to be humiliated. 18:30:29 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:40 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:50 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:20 beach: Lord Cromer had a note about that in his book about Ancient and Modern Imperialism 18:31:31 Fare: And I think that is one of the main problems of my students; the feel the humilation to be, er, humiliating, whereas I feel it to be a fantastic opportunity to learn. 18:31:59 Fare: Really? URL? 18:32:26 s/the feel/they feel/ 18:33:02 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:33:40 that as the necessity of the administrators to learn the language disappearing, the risk of administrators getting distanced from the population increased as they wouldn't want to take the humiliation of learning the language when enough natives spoke theirs. 18:33:52 google books has it 18:34:20 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:34:36 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:34:58 mm, humiliation. 18:35:04 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-161.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:35:28 I learnt how to give presentations from being humiliatingly underprepared for a presentation 18:35:42 or maybe I just learnt how not to be underprepared 18:35:46 Fare: Interesting! 18:36:02 (either way, it was useful, if humiliating :) 18:37:05 I am not saying that humiliation is always good. I am saying that learning something new is humiliating, so one has to recognize that particular humiliation as being useful. 18:37:39 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:56 And to get really good at a language, you must do the expose yourself to the most humiliating of situations: you must write and speak it. 18:38:13 is there no bit operation functions, i can't seem to find them, i want to do a binary shift 18:38:28 Does humility tie into this at all, or just humiliation? 18:38:31 ayrnieu: Yes, and that goes for programming languages as well, doesn't it? 18:38:34 clhs ash 18:38:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ash.htm 18:38:38 Guthur: Enjoy. 18:39:07 nyef cheers 18:39:12 nyef: Humility is a prerequisite for accepting the humiliation of learning, in my opinion. 18:39:45 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-140-9.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:40:04 Okay, I think I see how that would work. 18:40:21 amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:41:10 -!- pfeyz [n=user@rrcs-24-103-113-122.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:30 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:53 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:58 I find that when the entities dishing out the humiliation does it in humility then the whole humiliation thing goes away and it is just a "learning" experience... 18:43:21 nyef: All of this is on my mind of course, because once a week, I am faced with this young Vietnamese teacher being able to come up with sentences mych faster than I can. And I *do* feel humiliated because I can't do it. But I am able to reflect on it, and in the end I am amused. But I can see some people giving up just because of the humiliation. It is giving me insight to my own teaching, and to the reactions of our students. 18:43:59 Harag: Good point! 18:44:09 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:04 -!- Dawgmati` [n=user@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:13 Harag: This particular one has my number though, because she has understood that the more humiliated I feel, the harder I will tr 18:45:54 Whoops, I should turn off vietnamese-viqr input mode. 18:45:56 beach: well that is a positive/constructive feedback loop then...lol 18:46:29 Harag: Indeed. I love it! 18:47:28 Harag: after each session, I am totally wiped out. 18:48:24 beach: yes that is another point..you are open to learning and the joys of it...some people have are to concerned about saving face for it to be a benefit 18:48:39 -have 18:50:51 Harag: Yes, that's the subject of my essay on the psychology of learning. 18:51:13 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-28-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:51:27 http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html 18:52:06 beach did you find knowing more than one western language helped with vietnamese, or was it a hinderance? 18:52:45 Fade: You know, I can't put myself in the place of someone knowing just one western language. 18:52:58 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:08 Fade: I suspect that knowing more than one language helps. 18:53:11 yeah.. it's almost the curse of english as native tongue. 18:53:56 when did you pick up your secodnd language? 18:54:02 Fade: I am cheating a bit though, because I know how to immitate people (this is how I learned English), and I can repeat what a Vietnamese person says without having a clue what it means. 18:54:14 beach: yeah, there is a lot to say about the subject and thats before you bring cultural and other social habits into the picture 18:55:03 Harag: Right! And as it turns out, that the same whether one talks about a programming language or a natural language. 18:56:11 beach: its true for learning in general I think ...lol 18:57:12 beach: I dont know where you guys find the time to write essays and stuff, learning lisp is taking more time than I have ...lol 18:57:54 some of our academic friends have arranged their lives such that they have that kind of time. :) 18:58:08 I have heard a lot of people claiming that if you only know one language, then you know no language at all. 18:58:09 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1BAD.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 18:58:17 Fade: I have a particular gift, in that I remember (usally crappy) tunes from my childhood, and I learned the lyrics phonetically, so I can record what people say and repeat it to them with the right intonation. This helps in learning a foreign language. And my teacher of Vietnamese confirms this by saying "your pronunciation is excellent". 18:58:48 beach: you're cheating :P 18:59:02 I know. Sorry! 19:00:02 Harag: That's actually in my job description. 19:00:06 -!- rajesh_ [n=rajesh@cpe-68-173-54-94.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:00:32 schme: Not too great a risk for someone from Skåne! 19:00:47 beach: years back I did a stint of hebrew just for fun ...I could read it write it and even spell it but never had the vocab to understand half of it.. 19:01:02 Doesn't vietnamese use a whole different set of phonemes than one would find in european languages? 19:01:19 Harag: I see exactly what you mean. 19:01:39 schme: It is totally different, yes. 19:01:45 very cools 19:01:48 lol its a lot like my lisp usage... 19:01:57 is there source that gives comparison between structs and classes 19:01:58 But lisp is easy (: 19:02:25 schme: But it is much easier than European languages, just the way Lisp is easier than the C-family languages. 19:02:54 beach: Hm.. tbh I only ever really coded C, and I always found that very clean and simple. 19:03:01 schme: lisp is easy once you can think in it and I am sure ... 19:03:01 Guthur: CLHS 19:03:20 Harag: I dunno. I'm not sure I think in lisp. (: 19:03:37 java and C++ seem a bit messy and scary 19:03:43 stassats does really compare the two though, i'm trying to determine when to use one or other 19:04:03 Guthur: How about a struct when you would use a struct in C ? 19:04:38 Guthur: always use classes, unless you need structures 19:04:38 schme you can only have structs in C, hehe 19:04:43 i know what you mean though 19:05:31 schme: I suspect that thinking in a language is essential to truely "groking" it...once you think in it you will pick up other habbits of the culture that make it what it is 19:05:32 stassats that's what i was trying to figure out, when do i need structs 19:06:08 schme: C is easy only of you know a lot of stuff on the machine level, such as the representation of integers. 19:06:11 Guthur: weeeell. one infrequently abuses structs as some OO system.. storing pointers to functions in 'em and all. If you end up doing that then maybe not. I dunno. My mind keeps thinking up special cases now. 19:06:47 schme tell me about it i seen it in chipmunk, hackery like i have never seen or want to see again 19:06:58 beach: I guess. I'm one of the "asm first, then you learn something else" kinda people. But I guess it's related to python and whatnot not running on z80 :) 19:07:43 schme: We definitely have to meet sometime. We have things do discuss :) 19:07:43 "asm first, then recover from the trauma for the rest of your life" 19:08:15 Harag: I dunno there. I'm sure you have a very good point :) 19:08:25 stassats: ehehe. But I like asm.. just not x86 (: 19:08:37 beach: discuss.. such as getting python running on the z80? 19:08:59 python, the compiler? 19:09:24 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:09:55 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-149-38.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:56 Either way, for me, learning Vietnamese is very similar to learning Lisp. The basic structure is very simple, but then we are so used to overly complex languages that one has to think about this during the entire learning process. 19:09:57 Lisa asked me some day ago to 'teach her how to program'. I'm a bit stuck on what to do with this. I'm thinking lisp. But then she is on windows, so maybe C# or some such that works with nice visual tools. 19:10:12 beach: I need to look at vietnamese :) 19:10:20 drscheme or lispworks 19:10:26 *stassats* has a deja vu 19:10:40 Fade: lispworks could be a good idea :) 19:10:46 oh well 19:11:19 plt and a copy of sicp! 19:11:19 schme: Yeah, something like Lispworks! 19:11:21 -!- ehu changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ABCL 0.17.0, SBCL 1.0.32, trivial-features 0.6 19:11:24 give her the sicp lectures and a drscheme env 19:11:34 stassats: I'm quite sure she would not enjoy sicp :) 19:11:34 stassats: lead helmet 19:11:36 :) 19:11:52 did already ask that question? 19:12:01 schme: How old is Lisa? 19:12:04 25 19:12:23 Lispworks is probably better then. 19:12:24 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-27-221.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:39 stassats: well is a book, and she doesn't like books :) 19:12:54 sicp is available as a series of video lectures 19:12:56 Kids these days. 19:13:03 dyslexia these days ;) 19:13:32 schme: I know, I am getting more and more dyslexic the more languages I use :( 19:13:35 schme: two days ago someone asked that same question, about lisa, windows, not liking sicp, etc. 19:13:38 with dyslexia, it's hard programming. 19:13:58 ehu: I'd think so too. 19:14:03 I'm dyslexic. Emacs is king. 19:14:04 stassats: indeed! and I still want feedback :) 19:14:12 people suggest ruby and python and what not. 19:14:19 lispworks looks neat. 19:14:34 oh, ok, you just had a different name 19:14:35 Fade: I agree! Without Emacs, I would look like a total fool! 19:14:36 lispworks is neat, but I think sicp is the best introductory programming course. :) 19:14:50 imma let you download lispworks... 19:14:55 htdp? 19:15:12 (haven't read it myself) 19:15:24 drscheme is hella neat 19:15:38 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-64-220.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:15:53 drscheme looks pleasent too. 19:15:55 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:16:20 it's notion of language modules is interesting, and there are several for 'introduction to programming' needs 19:16:20 well as you were! 19:16:30 colls 19:16:32 cools too 19:17:01 I have no idea how one introduces people to this stuff. 19:17:13 schme: I am sorry to point out the obvious, but if Lisa is using CL, she could come to #lisp and get instant help 24h a day and with a (usually) friendly atmosphere 19:17:18 i guess you could also use something like impromptu, which would give her pretty immediate audio/visual gratification. 19:17:52 beach: yup. or get yelled at for not knowing stuff :) 19:17:53 and eventually she could move naturally to common lisp. :) 19:17:59 Instant gratification: Rebol, vbscript, javascript. 19:18:35 schme: Unlikely if you told us in advance she would come here, and to be gentle. 19:18:56 Fade: impromptu, running on OSX for "composers, sound artists etc." ? 19:19:03 yeah 19:19:12 schme - 'be yelled at' just means 'clhs foo', or 'minion, tell lisa about pcl' 19:19:14 looks really nice. 19:19:16 it's a general scheme. 19:19:19 based on tinyscheme 19:19:21 just OSX :) 19:19:27 ayrnieu: (: 19:19:29 but it's a very neat little system; unfortunately only on osx. 19:19:32 schme: Just like maus wasn't treated that badly despite a trivial question. 19:19:43 missed maus 19:20:01 damn OSX stuff always looking so good 19:20:16 schme: One of my students in T.P. HCM. 19:20:25 the media layer on OSX makes a lot of stuff pretty awesome. 19:20:32 I just wish it wasn't such a terrible unix. :) 19:20:45 I had the impression it was good? 19:20:54 it's a great client, but it isn't unix. 19:21:02 awesome. 19:21:05 I don't even like unix :P 19:21:09 *Fade* laughs 19:21:20 see, I think unix, so it's a constant annoyance to me. 19:21:31 schme: I hope nobody does! 19:22:03 something like this should be doable in CL 19:22:22 is just audio playing + some opengl ? 19:22:32 building an impromptu-like system on OSX in clozure common lisp would be straight forward. 19:23:06 there's a similar project that targets a scheme+linux environment, but its name is escaping me atm. 19:23:06 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:17 fluxus 19:23:23 now if one could hook it up to jack.. 19:23:34 which reportedly uses jack 19:23:43 ah 19:23:52 although when I tried it last year, i had trouble compiling it. 19:23:52 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-5-25.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:24:10 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:35 i wish the impromptu guy would release his code. 19:24:51 *schme* tries yaourt -S fluxus-git then 19:25:36 ah, there's an arch build for it? cool 19:25:43 yup. three of 'em 19:26:55 -!- asn [n=110@gentoo/developer/asn] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:56 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-12-122.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:02 This looks so much better than my idea of handing her an AVR + a programmer an da soldering iron :P 19:27:06 anyhow, give her the first couple of sicp video lectures :) 19:27:24 then set her loose with someeething like impromptu or fluxus. 19:27:33 Arduino? 19:27:44 when my gf saw impromptu she flipped her lis. 19:27:48 s/lis/lid 19:28:42 too many books D8 I started practical common lisp and now I hear about sicp 19:28:54 and I'm about to go to the library to pick up "Machine Learning" 19:28:59 Intertricity: arduino is cheating. avr + breadboard :) 19:29:16 schme, using lisp is cheating to other programmers :3 19:29:25 ehehehe 19:29:30 I wonder if there's lisp for arduino (googles) 19:29:58 http://ryepup.unwashedmeme.com/blog/2009/09/28/talking-usb-serial-to-my-arduino-from-lisp-sbcl-on-linux/ 19:29:59 nice 19:30:03 at least someone's tried 19:30:08 a scheme at most. 19:30:19 all of CL in it would be a bit of a stretch :) 19:31:52 I'm not too interested in doing apps on the chip, just want to use it as an IO point 19:32:02 I still haven't touched C++ yet 19:32:06 oh. then you don't really need lisp running on it. 19:32:06 I took a semester of C and went on to python 19:32:12 yeah :) 19:32:18 I just need lisp to access it 19:32:36 I use forth for avr. arduino has a whole odd development environment with it that is pretty much c++ iirc 19:33:20 Fade: fluxus-git built just fine after adding x86_64 :) 19:34:14 awesome 19:34:18 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:22 let the games begin. :) 19:34:23 crazy scaling repl 19:34:34 hello world is much more interesting when it flashes and beeps. 19:34:44 haha holy crap 19:34:51 I just saw the nick list in this channel 19:34:54 I didn't realize it was that big 19:34:59 what's fluxus? 19:35:16 aha 19:35:17 it's a scheme designed for interactive 'performance' programming 19:36:06 there are youtube videos of live coding performances using fluxus. 19:36:34 the repl is very cool 19:36:48 *nod* 19:37:21 let me know if it works out as a pedagogic tool :) 19:38:29 I'll be too busy playing with this to talk to lisa about it, sorry. 19:38:38 lol 19:38:58 teaching fail! :) 19:40:06 libxaw. hmm 19:41:47 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-149-38.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:42:26 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:42:43 woha, plt sure spews out warnings. 19:42:53 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 19:43:08 I got no warnings :( 19:43:22 warning: yada might be uninitialized. 19:43:25 (note this for building plt) 19:43:26 i failed to get the bastard compiled on my debian box. 19:43:32 well, last year 19:43:49 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.236.244] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:53 mfo [i=mfo@orm.abc.se] has joined #lisp 19:44:03 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.109.209] has joined #lisp 19:44:22 Fade: thanks for the fluxus and lispworks idea. In between these two, and my extreme pedagogical skillz I'm sure she'll have written a new lispos by next year. 19:44:35 :) 19:44:37 n'p. enjoy 19:44:39 =) 19:46:23 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-169-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:47:46 meh, fluxus had a deb-ball. didn't have to build plt... 19:48:06 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 19:48:23 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BFDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:48:55 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-52-95.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:49:03 in another of my slow, several years down the line acceptances (cf. use of git), based on my couple of weeks' experience of using it for sbcl I will accept that launchpad is approximately usable for bug tracking 19:49:11 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:49:34 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:50:35 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-138.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:50:36 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:52 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:12 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:05 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 20:01:16 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:02:25 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-159-45.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:48 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit ["Disconnecting from stoned server."] 20:07:01 -!- hraban_ [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:07:09 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-15-97.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:47 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-11-147.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:05 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:10:56 -!- chris2 [n=zhora@p5B168E25.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:11:06 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-52-95.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 20:11:13 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:13:21 minion: paip 20:13:22 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 20:14:02 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 20:14:02 boo, I cannot come to the birthday celebration. I have a midterm at december, 16th 20:14:09 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:14:27 redblue [i=star@ppp167.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:15:42 can i in some way say that &rest is a list containing a particular type, so that i can create a generic function on that type, ie. i want to have (defmethod + (&rest list-vectors)...) 20:16:05 no 20:16:24 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:16:58 ah well 20:19:47 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:21:59 Funnily enough, the type you give for a &rest parameter in a FUNCTION type specifier, specifies the type for each element in the list; that's CL's crippled way of having recursive types :) 20:22:54 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:22:59 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-12-122.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:08 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-14-89.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:02 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-189-70.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:30:23 tcr pasted "with-fixnum-list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89954 20:31:04 TR2N [i=email@89-180-146-89.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 20:32:15 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:33:06 benny [n=benny@i577A1BAD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:15 tcr annotated #89954 "corrected version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89954#1 20:33:49 viro`haz2d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-69-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:10 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:35 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:34:50 woha. fluxus is indeed cool. 20:35:15 tic: gotta love the repl :D 20:35:23 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-164.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:35:53 yeah, it's awesome! 20:36:03 someone make that for Lisp now yes? 20:36:47 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 20:37:09 -!- viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-11-147.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:37:16 tic: nice of you to volunteer! 20:37:40 :P 20:38:08 alt-backspace kills it. 20:38:52 *deepfire* has found an article which significantly develops the notion of cargo cult science 20:39:39 sellout [n=greg@pool-71-123-32-86.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:59 information society, invariance of communication wrt. content, increasing detachment of signs from their meanings 20:40:41 http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=15885 20:40:55 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:20 "If we imagine a role-playing game of a sufficient scale and level, in the framework of which a science is modeled, then this gaming scientific community would not be qualitatively different in its principles of operation from the community of "real" scientists." 20:41:32 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has joined #lisp 20:42:29 *deepfire* is somewhat afraid of repressions, but would be very curious about any potential opinion of resident #lisp's academics 20:42:46 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-116-75.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:43:06 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:44:54 Hi all, I'm just checking... Tail recursion is a staple of many Scheme functions, is it advised to use tail recursion in Common Lisp? 20:45:46 jtza8, it's not supported by the ANSI standard, but -most- CL implementations will use tail-call optimization where appropriate. 20:45:52 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:55 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-14-89.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:09 Thanks Adlai. 20:46:20 jtza8: only use tail recursion where that is the best method for explaining your algorithm 20:46:29 when there are other methods, use those 20:46:55 Yep, I was just wondering if it would be safe or not... 20:47:04 jtza8, you can usually translate tail-recursive algorithms almost directly to use DO, at which point you can then modify them to use one of the more high-level iteration constructs. 20:47:37 Yeah, I love DO :) 20:48:17 DO is basically a way to write your tail-recursive functions iteratively. 20:48:26 s/function/algorithm/ 20:48:33 not TAGBODY? 20:48:38 Adlai: does the standard prohibit it (tail call optimization), or does it simply just not mandate it? 20:48:45 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2364.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:52 the later 20:48:55 V-ille, the latter 20:49:02 thanks 20:49:12 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:49:47 the "not supported" sounded alarming 20:50:37 I guess "mandated" is a better word 20:51:10 Isn't tail recursion the uninteresting aspect of TCO? 20:54:04 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:21 How many algorithms can you name where you can employ tail recursion naturally? 20:55:17 reduce, reverse, recycle 20:55:25 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:55:35 TCO makes more sense to me when you're translating something to chained closures.. 20:56:18 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:58:08 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.38] has quit ["  ,     . http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/10/31/633610479183753742-ha] 21:05:30 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:26 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:30 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-189-70.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:11:43 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has joined #lisp 21:13:10 francogrex [n=user@91.177.57.87] has joined #lisp 21:13:42 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:14:31 viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-140-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:06 what is the most straightforward way to move one pdf file from one place to another? say from folder c:/ to folder d:/ ? 21:17:48 is there a way to get the integer representation of a floats binary data, i.e. do the same as a union of a float and int in C 21:18:18 Guthur: integer-decode-float 21:18:24 <_3b> minion: tell guthur about ieee-floats 21:18:25 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:25 guthur: look at ieee-floats: IEEE-Floats provides a way of converting values of type float and double-float to and from their binary representation as defined by IEEE 754 (which is commonly used by processors and network protocols). http://www.cliki.net/ieee-floats 21:19:03 great cheers krystof & _3b 21:19:21 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.167] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:21:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:21:26 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 21:22:34 i am writing a macro which defines a function in another package but cannot seem to give it a good function name.. 21:23:03 because the symbol passed to my macro is already in another package 21:24:23 -!- colin__ [n=colin@118-160-194-139.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:36 do i have to intern and export it ? 21:24:47 (in the new package) 21:25:24 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.128.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:07 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:24 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:05 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:07 -!- TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:31:53 -!- viro`haz2d [n=nieve@pool-96-246-69-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:48 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:37 even when I do intern and export the symbol it says : "These symbols are not accessible in the OTHER package : [..." 21:34:48 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.21.49] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:35:31 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229081170.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:36:12 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.21.49] has joined #lisp 21:39:19 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.57.87] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:58 francogrex [n=user@91.177.57.87] has joined #lisp 21:42:46 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-1-190.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 21:44:13 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.236] has joined #lisp 21:47:44 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-179-180.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:48:47 lispm [n=joswig@e177120148.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:27 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177120148.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:48 lispm [n=joswig@e177120148.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:36 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:00 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:44 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:53:57 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-110-245.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:56:00 so I'm having some clbuild issue. I added sheeple to my-projects and my-dependencies, yet clbuild install sheeple tells me warning: no dependencies for sheeple found and Error: cannot download unknown project sheeple 21:56:06 what's going on here? 21:57:28 hey lispers: clisp is giving me an EVAL error saying that variable D has no value... is there a way to get a line number at least? 21:57:36 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 21:58:45 I'm not familiar with clisp's REPL but its debugger should usually provide a means to obtain a backtrace and the possible restarts 21:59:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-164.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:00:29 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-7-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:02:04 schme: I think you need to regenerate the dependencies, although I can't fid the incantation to do so atm. 22:02:12 check docs at the clbuild page 22:02:17 s/fid/find 22:02:26 Fade: naaah. they're in my-dependencies. But I solved it. 22:02:39 Fade: turns out I should *NOT* put a tab between sheeple and get_git 22:02:49 C-o-r-E: have a look at http://www.cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger 22:02:51 sg [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-csjcqrvhcrqknpez] has joined #lisp 22:03:01 :0 22:03:03 hi 22:03:37 billitch: You cannot intern a symbol, you can only intern a name (a string). 22:04:24 billitch: It is usually better to just use the symbol passed in argument to name the function defined by the macro. 22:04:29 may i ask.. in a good lisp compiler shouldn't calculating the length of a list a zero-cost operation? 22:04:50 i mean, the lisp reader already needs to calculate the length to construct the list in the first place 22:05:02 or am i completely mistaken? 22:05:24 sg: a lisp list is usually a linked list 22:05:44 each cell has a "pointer" to the next list or nil 22:05:46 billitch: If you want to generate derived symbols, you can do things like: (defmacro m (name) `(progn (defun ,(intern (format nil "~A-HELPER" name) (symbol-package name)) () ...) (defun ,name () ...))) 22:06:17 sg: you more likely are talking about a vector 22:06:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:01 pjb: thanks, that was what I was fearing, but other than that seems worse 22:07:24 billitch: yes, the thing is when i write my code like: (+ 10 20 30) the lisp reads it and returns the list, effectively consing the elements into the linked list 22:07:34 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:07:43 then, shouldn't it know the length by the time i use it? 22:07:56 pjb: Don't you want to intern in *package* rather? 22:08:02 sg: but actually i dont really need defun, i might as well use a hashtable of functions 22:08:28 sg: Lisp does not have lists, only cascading cons cells 22:08:32 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-179-180.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:37 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 22:08:56 <_3b> sg: a smart compiler might be able to remember the length if it has calculated it already in teh same function, but can't in general store the length of arbitrary lists anywhere 22:09:28 tcr: (that's a pretty good description of a linked list to me) 22:09:39 tcr: not always. 22:09:42 It could indeed know the length of each list literal (for example implicitly in its type) 22:10:09 <_3b> true, i guess literals could be assumed to not change 22:10:17 billitch: No the point is that Lisp does have lists as ADTs; there no place where to attach the length 22:10:30 billitch: (does _not_ have) 22:10:43 _3b: that's why i'm asking i'm trying to optimize some things in an interpreter 22:10:51 i thought that would be a got spot 22:10:55 *god 22:10:58 *good 22:11:18 <_3b> well, if you know more about the data than the compiler does, you might be able to store extra data somewhere 22:11:41 i'm thinking on calculating the lists length in the reader and reuse that 22:11:51 <_3b> but consider (setf (cdr some-cons) nil)... if some-cons is in the middle of the linked list, how would it update the length of that list? 22:11:53 specially to know how many arguments a primitive has 22:11:56 sg: reuse for what? 22:11:59 <_3b> or if it was in the middle of a bunch of lists? 22:12:05 without calling (length args) every time 22:12:20 Uhm that's an entirely different matter 22:12:24 _3b: yes, then it would have to be updated 22:12:53 as well as with procedures like scheme (iota ...) wich cons dinamically 22:13:16 sg: why not use a simple-vector ? 22:13:30 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:13:33 billitch: He's probably not writing an interpreter for Common Lisp 22:13:43 oh no, not at all like CL 22:13:47 much simpler 22:13:50 pjb: When would you prefer the home package? 22:14:23 tcr: (define-thingy other-package::my-thingy) 22:14:49 -!- Dodek_ is now known as Dodek 22:14:59 That not what defstruct does, indeed 22:15:08 s/That/That's/ 22:15:36 In presence of imported symbols, interning into the home-package could sure be a heck of surprising 22:15:38 But it seems to me ok to intern the derived symbols in the same package as the root name. 22:15:42 yes but if it is a data structure with fixed length and allocated space, why not call it a vector ? 22:17:00 tcr: well, *package* may itself be imported in other packages, so the same surprize may also occur here... 22:17:51 ? 22:18:52 Oh! I see what you mean. 22:19:05 defpackage's :import-from 22:19:14 Yes, indeed, it might be better to use *package* than the symbol-package. 22:21:21 ContraSF [i=email@89.180.141.118] has joined #lisp 22:25:30 hrm, i have an object w/ constructor. i'm making a new descendent of this object with a new constructor because the old one will fail because the input to the constructor changed. isn't the parent constructor automatically called, how can i override that? 22:27:04 with constructor you mean a method on initialize-instance? 22:27:21 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-192.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:27:24 yep, sorry, i'm generalizing. the original obj has an initialize-instance :after method 22:27:36 and the one? 22:28:15 the new one has a difference constructor. same slots, but the input format changed, and the old contructor would fail 22:28:33 so i need to selectively skip the parent's constructor 22:28:38 if you defined a primary method on your subclass, yes, the "super" method won't be called unless you explicitly invoke it via CALL-NEXT-METHOD 22:30:25 i had the impression that each constructor would be called in order, automatically 22:30:33 :after, and :before auxiliary methods will always be invoked in, uhm, I think, most-specific-to-least-specific order by default 22:30:51 hrm 22:31:19 my understanding was that you never made your own initialize-instance method, instead of made an :after method 22:31:34 It depends on what you want, obviously 22:31:37 and of course all parent method are also called 22:31:46 true. i'm trying to lay it out 22:31:59 yes that's probably the reason why you usually write :after methods 22:32:14 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-146-89.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:17 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:32:33 i thought that the standard initialize-instance did stuff, and the proper way to have a constructor was only to use :After 22:32:36 perhaps :after methods are actually invoked in least-specific-to-most-specific order, I'd have to look up 22:32:40 yeah well, if you override initialize-instance, you must know to invoke shared-initialize properly 22:32:51 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d067746.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:43 well, i guess i have two solutions. 22:34:25 i have grandparent, parent, and child. child cannot use parent's constructor, it'll die. so either i tell child to skip parent's constructor while keeping GP's, or i just make this child object a descendent of GP instead of parent. 22:34:41 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:35:59 or i make parent's constructor failure non-fatal, and let child handle it 22:36:09 can child catch the condition from the parent? 22:36:12 before and after methods run most-specific-last 22:36:35 yep, which is normally very nice 22:36:58 again, maybe i add a child-level handle-expception, and put a restart in the parent 22:37:15 i'm new to that, not sure its conceptually sound 22:40:11 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:40:33 You can just skip the parent's initialize-instance. 22:40:33 serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06f770.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:59 if i have a list (A B C) 22:42:12 BatWing [i=44228e44@gateway/web/freenode/x-ohacgikzttjyvtrd] has joined #lisp 22:42:12 and i want to make a list (X A B C) 22:42:19 V-ille: if all the initilize-instances use :After, how? 22:42:28 can i do that with the list function? 22:42:33 Hey I'm just getting started - trying to work through Practical Common Lisp 22:42:36 C-o-r-E: use cons 22:42:38 Demosthenes: define a primary method for it for your derived class. 22:42:41 and really, its one line of code out of the whole constructor that needs a "patch" 22:42:48 And call shared-initialize from that. 22:42:54 minion, tell C-o-r-E about gentle 22:42:54 C-o-r-E: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 22:43:08 thanks ^^ 22:43:10 can someone recommend a GPL'd or LGPL'd lisp implementation that I can run on Windows Vista without having administrative privileges? 22:43:13 Well, you could obviously give a flag to the constructor so that it knows to skip that one line. :) 22:43:19 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-116-75.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:43:22 minion, tell BatWing about clisp 22:43:23 BatWing: please look at clisp: CLISP is a Common Lisp implementation by Bruno Haible of Karlsruhe University and Michael Stoll of Munich University, both in Germany. http://www.cliki.net/clisp 22:43:24 I don't have a laptop so I've gotta borrow computers 22:43:58 V-ille: the data i'm reading is from a vendor and I can't control the input. i'm using objs to represent each "generation" of input data and only include the differences in the constructors 22:44:13 domo arigato 22:44:37 argh, right, :after methods are not shadowed. Hmm... 22:45:51 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:04 V-ille: the option to back another generation to a constructor that wont die is valid, but means alot of duplicate code 22:46:07 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:46:12 i wanted each generation to process as much as they can... 22:46:30 without knowing "forward" information regarding the changes. 22:46:59 I need to correct my previous statement, :after methods run most-specific-last, :before methods run most-specific-first 22:47:12 fedel [n=felipe@189.29.255.92] has joined #lisp 22:47:13 Adlai, CLISP for windows doesn't seem to fit the specificaitons I outlined 22:47:41 BatWing, does it not run on Vista? 22:47:49 poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/poe] has joined #lisp 22:47:52 not without admin privileges, which you need to install software 22:47:52 maybe try Clozure CL, too 22:47:56 minion, tell BatWing about CCL 22:47:57 BatWing: direct your attention towards CCL: OpenMCL is now called Clozure Common Lisp (CCL). http://www.cliki.net/CCL 22:48:19 V-ille: could i make a :before method that establishes an error handler to catch and restart the error that will occur in the parent constructor, and cleanup in :after? 22:48:23 it needs to have a no-install package such as a .zip or .paf.exe 22:49:15 CCL unzips to a .exe 22:49:32 not just an .exe, i was referring to a .paf.exe 22:49:41 ccl, haven't looked at that yet, 1 sec 22:50:12 Hi people... I'm starting to lear LISP but I have a homework to do. I have to use lisp in anything... 22:50:24 So....I thought it: 22:50:34 Demosthenes: maybe you should use a different method combination? 22:50:45 V-ille: i'm open to suggestions 22:50:52 fedel: that we do your homework for you? 22:51:19 tcr, no haha 22:51:37 V-ille: again, because the input data changes with each generation, i figured an object at each level to keep up made sense. i just happen to be relying on prior contstructors. 22:52:01 -!- tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:03 I think you can do the error handled thing you suggested. 22:52:10 handler, not handled 22:52:12 I would like to do a homewok like this: http://en.akinator.com/ 22:52:30 V-ille: i thought that may work 22:52:36 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:52 V-ille: one of the key things i'm trying to accomplish is to NOT go backward and doctor up code for prior versions of the objects 22:53:34 for example: I think in a person of my class at university and answer questions of my aplication. The aplication wil get the person i thought 22:53:38 repror___ [n=reprore@EM114-48-162-114.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:53:47 Could you uderstand? 22:53:53 i wanted to use CLOS to prevent my making a huge difficult to maintain morass of switch statements trying to react to variations of input data 22:54:18 Hmm.. handler-bind and handler-case both want to be wrapped around a form. 22:54:53 We can't do that in a :before method, for the :before method of the parent class.. 22:56:07 You could use an :around method, though. 22:57:31 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d067746.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:32 That should do the trick. 22:58:49 ziga`` [n=user@BSN-143-132-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:53 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:28 -!- serichse` [n=user@hmbg-4d06f770.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:18 man graph algorithms are hard 23:02:18 -!- udzinari [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:02:20 dijkstra stuff 23:02:25 *starek* scratches head 23:03:41 -!- BatWing [i=44228e44@gateway/web/freenode/x-ohacgikzttjyvtrd] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 23:03:50 V-ille: like the around method documented here: http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~jeff/clos-guide.html s/cook :around/ 23:04:05 i could run handle-case around call-next-method? 23:04:21 Yes, exactly. 23:04:37 neat! 23:04:45 now i just have to put in some restarts 23:05:12 ideally, the "new" object would either repair, change, or omit the piece that no longer works and tell the parent to continue as far as possible 23:08:10 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp167.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 23:09:26 saikatc [n=saikatc@66.201.44.122] has joined #lisp 23:09:37 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:10:18 redblue [i=star@ppp115.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:11:01 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:11:59 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.57.87] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:08 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-118.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:15 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 23:20:13 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:21:28 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 23:21:42 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:22:38 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:23:14 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@66.92.43.124] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 23:23:59 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:24:34 im slightly confused about how defmethod is supposed to take non class arguments 23:25:08 (defmethod test ((c classtype)) ... ) works fine 23:25:12 but 23:25:38 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:38 (defmethod test ((c classtype) item) ... ) does not 23:26:03 -!- repror___ [n=reprore@EM114-48-162-114.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:06 says that its not a generic function 23:26:53 <_3b> did you defun or defmacro test first? 23:28:12 C-o-r-E: that there will be problematic because first you def test with one variable, then with two. 23:28:17 argument 23:28:24 or whatever the term is 23:28:58 <_3b> yeah, all methods need to be congruent 23:29:30 egoz [n=Egoz@125.163.14.222] has joined #lisp 23:29:31 C-o-r-E no method overloading in lisp 23:29:35 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 23:29:44 *_3b* is assuming the methods don't actually have the same name in this case 23:30:40 you could use &optional or &rest though 23:31:23 or even &key depending on your needs 23:31:32 reprore_ [n=reprore@EM114-48-186-33.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:31:42 viro`haz1d [n=nieve@pool-173-52-15-143.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:42 oh sorry 23:31:48 i didnt clarify 23:32:00 those are mutually exclusive 23:32:01 at almost 1 am you must clarify :) 23:32:08 :) 23:32:27 they are not two functions 23:32:27 C-o-r-E: what exactly are you doing that is not working? 23:32:30 they are the same 23:32:31 oh 23:32:36 so they're both TEST 23:32:40 yes 23:32:47 that won't work because the generic function takes just one argument 23:32:53 hmm 23:33:10 (defmethod test ((c integer)) ....) generates a generic function for you 23:33:17 <_3b> that should give yuou a different error though 23:33:30 then when you do (dm test ((c integer) cows) ....) you try to use two arguments. 23:33:44 something about expecting one argument :) 23:34:13 well im trying to create a method that takes any data type as an argument 23:34:22 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm 23:34:24 it is supposed to be a key in a dictionary 23:34:31 1. Each lambda list must have the same number of required parameters. 23:34:49 <_3b> right, if you don't specify a class, it defaults to T, which matches anything 23:35:10 <_3b> but all methods of a particular generic function meed matching arguments 23:35:15 <_3b> *need 23:35:44 you mean like (d dictionary) (a animal) 23:35:49 ? 23:36:05 like (defmethod test (a b) ...) 23:36:33 <_3b> clhs 7.6.4 23:36:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm 23:36:38 <_3b> like that ^^ 23:36:55 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-7-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:03 C-o-r-E: do you have some example calling of TEST ? 23:37:21 if you need variable number of arguments you should maybe add keywords or &rest 23:37:55 ok now im very confused because i have another method that already takes arguments 23:38:02 but it takes 2 23:38:21 asside from the classtype 23:38:28 you can have it take any number. 23:38:41 just not different numbers for the same generic function 23:38:55 <_3b> C-o-r-E: i think we need to see code to tell what you are doing wrong 23:39:03 let me back up for a sec and speak in imperative psudo code 23:39:06 you can even specialize on more classtyes. 23:39:09 C-o-r-E: all methods that have the same "name" should have the same number of arguments 23:39:26 tsuru: yea thats not a problem 23:39:38 i dont have more than one method with the same name 23:40:02 what i am trying to do is for the dictionary d 23:40:22 d.find(key) 23:40:30 in imperical terms 23:40:42 <_3b> did you try to (defmethod find ... )? 23:40:49 (defmethod myfind ((dictionary d) thekey) ...) ? 23:41:04 -!- amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:41:15 (defmethod find ((d dictionary) key) ...) 23:41:20 <_3b> clhs find 23:41:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm 23:41:31 <_3b> ^^ find is already a function 23:41:34 NOES 23:41:39 *C-o-r-E* facepalms 23:41:51 would you like some help? Here's an extra palm 23:41:57 ehehehe 23:41:58 lol 23:42:07 sorry, i feel so dumb now 23:42:14 C-o-r-E: It takes some time to learn to read the lisp error messages. :) 23:42:32 yea its a bitch at the moment :P 23:42:36 the moral of this story is: when asking for help on IRC, post what you actually did, not some simplification of what you did 23:42:39 C-o-r-E: (apropos 'symbol-name) is a good tool 23:43:02 "(defmethod test ((c classtype) item) ... ) does not" was where you went wrong in this conversation 23:43:23 roger that 23:43:35 I like those robots in that one good star wars movie 23:43:38 roger, roger 23:43:48 C-o-r-E, a good idea when you're not exactly sure what your error is, is to just dump the problematic code on lisppaste 23:43:52 lisppaste, url? 23:43:53 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 23:44:30 -!- viro`hazrd [n=nieve@pool-173-52-140-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 23:47:10 alright dinner time :) 23:50:38 BatWing [i=44228e44@gateway/web/freenode/x-ggzjnhczhzmanlpv] has joined #lisp 23:50:47 OK I got CCL running I think 23:51:12 what I'm really looking for is an IDE, linker and compiler all together 23:51:48 which is free software and runs on windows vista as a portable application or without an installer, not requiring administrative priviliges on the machine to run 23:53:15 BatWing: There's Cocoatron for Windows that allows the CCL IDE to work ... somewhat. The integration, etc. is still in progress. 23:53:39 ever heard of CUSP , the eclipse plugin? 23:54:02 i tried installing it but it said it needed an older version of the eclipse updater to install 23:54:11 Yeah, but haven't used it. 23:54:32 Used to use Emacs/SLIME, but mostly use the CCL IDE these days. 23:55:00 since lisp is supposed to have total homoiconicity, shouldn't it be fairly easy to package a lisp IDE as a web app? 23:55:14 since web application frameworks exist for lisp already 23:55:59 <_3b> you could write a web app that runs arbitrary lisp code if that is what you mean 23:56:12 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:56:36 <_3b> writing an editor,debugger,etc web app doesn't sound exactly 'easy' but that is unrelated to lisp 23:56:47 _3b, please bear with me, I'm a n00b. what does "arbitrary" mean in this context? 23:56:57 i know what i means in ordinary non-programming usage 23:57:10 <_3b> same meaning 23:57:32 so by "arbitrary" you mean "user-defined" 23:57:34 BatWing - 'a web app that runs any lisp code that you give it' 23:57:39 <_3b> send some text to web server, it interpretes it as code and runs it 23:57:45 exactly 23:57:46 BatWing - 'arbitrary' has a more dangerous connotation. 23:58:34 _3b, why wouldn't it be easy? 23:58:53 You ever written an editor? :) 23:58:54 <_3b> BatWing: editors are complex (if you want a nice one) 23:59:05 <_3b> debuggers are too 23:59:07 Ah, you do have a point there 23:59:14 <_3b> and adding http in the middle doesn't make it easier 23:59:23 but form-based will work for a start 23:59:42 <_3b> then there is the whole 'security' thing 23:59:49 what's with all the "homoiconicity  silly webapps" people lately