00:04:43 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:04:54 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9423.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:08:38 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-84-45-69.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:11:21 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 00:12:15 Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 00:12:44 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:09 hi folks! Can anyone tell me about a good way to get asdf set up under emacs+SLIME? Do I need to have it loaded up somehow before using it, or does it work out of the box when installed (under ubuntu, fyi) 00:13:11 ? 00:14:51 seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-126-130.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:20 shamwow which implementation are you using? 00:17:35 Guthur: sbcl 00:18:03 should be enough i think (require 'asdf) 00:18:06 troussan` [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:20 at the top of each file before my (defpackage) ? 00:18:26 and then (require 'asdf-install) if you need that 00:18:26 nah 00:18:39 i'm no fu master of asdf though 00:18:52 do you issue it in your .emacs? 00:18:57 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 00:19:44 cmsimon [n=prettiek@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 00:20:42 you know i think i only ever called it once then its good to go 00:20:55 just called it from the repl 00:21:10 oh, cool! Wait... does that mean you've never closed your lisp session, or that it's set up forever? 00:21:17 lol 00:21:23 live in a constant repl 00:21:40 i have closed emacs 00:21:50 REPL is the world around us :) 00:22:01 neat, well thanks for the tip 00:22:16 just call it once and it should be good, it adds the module to the *modules* 00:22:37 :minion require 00:22:48 crap i never remember the syntax 00:22:52 *Guthur* minion 00:22:55 oops 00:22:57 lol 00:22:58 I see. And *modules* lives somewhere outside the repl and static 00:23:00 ? 00:23:09 minion tell me about require 00:23:10 ? 00:23:13 nope... 00:23:15 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 00:23:25 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:28 clhs require 00:23:48 hhh its broke 00:23:49 specbot: slacker! 00:24:06 i can't msg minion either for some reason 00:24:21 minion is out to lunch 00:25:27 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:54 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit [Client Quit] 00:27:17 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 00:33:07 de_fault [n=de_fault@88.238.221.135] has joined #lisp 00:34:09 -!- cmsimon [n=prettiek@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:34:31 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:37 *p_l* thinks he might get two co-workers for his startup :3 00:35:56 p_l: What sort of startup? 00:37:00 nyef: the idea is to make management software for schools 00:37:06 Ahh. Cool. 00:37:13 We have rather bad case of "bad software" at our university :> 00:37:50 also, I plan to build something similar to dwim while working on it :) 00:38:28 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:39 On a completely different subject, http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/ev5-cpu.pdf is an initial attempt at converting some existing code to a literate program. 00:39:52 two different interfaces for Web access + "services" (for integration purposes) 00:41:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:39 nyef: looks nice :) 00:44:22 i'm tring to use cl-opengl on sbcl 1.0.29 for winXP, loads cl-opengl from asdf without any problems, but when i try to load cl-glut-examples, it gives an error Undefined alien: "glutSetOption", i tried several freeglut.dll files even tried to build it from mingw, the same error message everytime, i find a very close error report on cl-opengl-devel which seems to remain unsolved, it has been 7 hours since i trying to solve this, that would be very nice if 00:44:45 Yeah, but it's highlighted a number of weaknesses in my style that I really hadn't thought about before. 00:44:57 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 00:45:52 by the way i mean (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :cl-glut-examples) by "but when i try to load cl-glut-examples", not loading particular example lisp files 00:46:39 the similar error report is : http://www.mail-archive.com/cl-opengl-devel@common-lisp.net/msg00207.html 00:46:51 de_fault: I'd start by dumping the exports from your GLUT DLLs and hooking whatever it is that calls GetProcAddress() to find out the entry point being looked up and see how they differ. 00:46:59 fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:16 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:48:44 p_l: Anyway, I think that if I pick that project up again I'll probably spend some time converting parts of it to a literal style. It -really- helps with the exposition. 00:49:19 -!- mikl0 [n=mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:51:19 nyef: i wish i wasn't that much newbie, but i am, so your suggestion seems to me like something i will not be able to accomplish :\ is there a freeglut.dll file that is known to be working with current cl-opengl binding set? i couldn't find one in common-lisp net or anywhere else 00:51:30 nyef: what kind of weaknesses did you find? 00:52:32 de_fault: That I can't help you with. Unfortunately, windows doesn't get much attention from the open-source lisp set, and I haven't done much with OpenGL even on linux. 00:53:14 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:32 p_l: Use of magic constants, picking off various fields with unexplained byte specifiers that are "obvious" when you have the CPU manuals open in front of you but are otherwise opaque, etc. 00:53:34 de_fault you could maybe try a different implementation 00:56:10 de_fault: have you tried with CCL? 00:56:38 p_l: nope, i guess that will be my next step. 00:56:51 i also found this one but i thought it wasn't what i need : http://github.com/3b/cl-opengl 00:57:47 since usually modified libraries have small notifications under the cliki page of the original one but i guess i'm going to try that too 00:57:57 nyef: what did you use for literate programming style? 00:58:15 p_l: How do you mean? 00:58:19 (also, cross-references would be great) 00:58:35 nyef: I meant what did you use to generate the PDF etc. 00:58:51 Ah. I used CLWEB, TeX and dvipdf. 00:59:31 Apparently the soon-to-be-released beta of CLWEB has index generation. 00:59:56 nyef: btw, I'd recommend using pdf(la)tex instead of latex->dvipdf 01:00:16 Ooh. Thanks. 01:00:46 produces better results 01:01:11 rahul: Stealing Kenny's market? How could you? 01:02:23 Internal links for the sections. Nice. 01:03:48 there's also Xe(La)TeX, but I haven't experimented with it much (it boasts much better font support, iirc) 01:04:05 -!- troussan` [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:25 well, better for "modern" environments... I doubt TTF/OTF can take on Metafont ;P 01:06:51 btw, my startup idea basically revolves around an "application infrastructure", with data&logic separated from GUI/rendering layers, written in either CL or maybe Erlang :-) 01:07:24 sounds big, but it will have to grow first ;-) 01:07:32 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:53 *p_l* learned in last few days about few very interesting JS tools and is quite interested in using them with CL 01:08:01 So, a classic CRUD system combined with a workflow engine? 01:09:05 nyef: no, not CRUD 01:09:41 there would be CRUD elements, but unlike certain frameworks it won't be oriented around CRUD 01:09:50 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:11:28 for example, while you can shoehorn a printing quota widget into a CRUD layer, it sounds better to just define logic to display and buy extra print credit 01:11:45 nyef: VADER is nicer 01:12:11 VADER? :D 01:12:15 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:12:19 redblue [i=star@ppp134.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:12:37 As in "Darth", or something else? 01:13:03 view, add, delete, edit and restore 01:13:04 :D 01:13:35 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:13:46 nyef: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Create,_read,_update_and_delete for other choices 01:14:37 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 01:14:47 *p_l* just read about leaks regarding latest ACTA negotiations and is disgusted 01:18:39 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has left #lisp 01:18:49 p_l: bow down before the New World Order! 01:19:28 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 01:21:17 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-64.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:21:19 -!- nyquist` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:47 foom: I'm from Poland. We spent more than century fighting "new orders". Which means HELL NO!!! ;-) 01:23:16 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:22 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 01:23:46 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:24:39 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:25:48 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 01:25:50 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.220.116] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:26:42 I wonder what became of . 01:26:52 -!- jmaclean [n=jmaclean@194.75.202.163] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:28:36 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:28:41 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:27 -!- getha [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:41 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 01:31:22 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:24 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 01:32:30 pkhuong: Very interesting. How did you stumble on that paper? 01:32:39 *those slides 01:34:02 pkhuong: wow 01:35:03 of course, briggs had to plug BURGS (: 01:35:04 egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has joined #lisp 01:35:15 pkhuong: nice find. 01:35:55 *redline6561* has spent the last half hour listening to Ross Tate's Equality Saturation talk. http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~rtate/publications/eqsat/ 01:35:56 Guthur_ [n=Michael@86.136.51.198] has joined #lisp 01:36:23 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:36:32 -!- Guthur_ is now known as Guthur 01:37:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:37:39 redline6561: google finds fresh stuff on xappings from time to time. 01:38:44 steele's papper on connection machine lisp includes rough implementations 01:38:46 One can see hints of an influence in map-reduce. 01:38:49 pkhuong: I'll add it to my list of things to check up on now and again. Thanks. 01:38:56 jmaclean [n=jmaclean@194.75.202.163] has joined #lisp 01:39:00 I set it aside to play with over a holliday, but the holliday never came. :) 01:40:58 so I've got this code that keeps dying of heap exhaustion 01:41:05 where do I start debugging it? 01:41:06 Fade: threads are a bit heavy to exploit (well) the granularity in xapping. GPUs (or LRB) are probably a better fit for the model, but the engineering work becomes much larger. 01:41:27 aye 01:41:55 is there any way to find out what's taking up so much memory? 01:42:33 profiler 01:43:01 where can I find a good introduction to SBCL's? 01:43:23 Mmm... Allocation profiling helps. Even the coarse-grained option of calling ROOM in your main loop and keeping track of what operations occur each time through might even help. 01:43:45 Or producing an estimate of what your memory usage should be... 01:44:05 at sbcl's web site 01:44:33 *Ralith* has three main loops >_> 01:44:35 heavy threading going on. 01:44:40 likely to cause confusion? 01:45:21 it already did, didn't it? 01:45:38 *Ralith* shrugs 01:45:52 haven't had to deal with an issue like this before; I'm confused to start with :P 01:47:14 -!- de_fault [n=de_fault@88.238.221.135] has left #lisp 01:47:33 xappings reminded me a little of code in Haskell :) 01:48:01 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:48:23 hm 01:48:35 only thing that stands out in (room) is 50MB of dynamic space usage 01:48:37 whatever that is 01:48:51 that doesn't seem too huge, but I have no reference points 01:50:21 -!- ziga`` [n=user@BSN-142-51-212.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:18 Ralith you loading anything external 01:52:06 Guthur: external like what? 01:52:14 I'm personally loading no foreign code. 01:52:47 the libraries I'm using are cl-fad, split-sequence, montezuma, drakma, chanl, closure-html, and xmls 01:53:14 the data driven parallelism in the xapping are the direct inspiration for the whole map/reduce thing at google, I'm sure I read. 01:54:17 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has quit [] 01:54:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:33 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-37.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:58:22 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:36 -!- qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-6bbfcad02f55a3cf] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:03:33 qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-5998847a7ce1335e] has joined #lisp 02:06:41 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:10:01 Right, I'm gone. G'night all. 02:11:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:43 nyef: night 02:12:46 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:13 ridip [n=user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:52 -!- ridip [n=user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:15:08 fatelang [n=user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:11 Can someone remind me of the way to change the display of a lisp object return value on the REPL (i.e. > obj ==> #) to something human-readable using various slot values (i.e. #)?? 02:15:25 or something similar? 02:15:34 clhs print-object 02:15:43 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:04 stassats: thanks! 02:16:37 and note print-unreadable-object 02:16:57 Shamwow: look for print-object in http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-spam-filter.html 02:17:30 slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:17:43 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 02:18:44 shamwow you can also inspect that with slime 02:18:46 fe[nl]ix: perfect! Exactly where I first saw it :) 02:18:57 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:19:01 Guthur: what's the command in slime? 02:19:17 i only know right clicking it, but there is bound to be a key 02:19:28 C-c C-v i 02:19:46 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:48 stassats awesome 02:20:28 stassats: I get that key-combo as undefined... 02:20:48 on a presentation? 02:21:29 on.. anything? all I see is "C-c C-v is undefined" 02:21:35 if you have presentations at al 02:21:43 oh.. 02:21:45 :) 02:21:55 load slime-fancy 02:22:06 like in (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 02:22:41 Is that a package I may not have installed/not standard with slime/emacs? 02:23:00 it comes with slime 02:23:15 no, unless you know how to get rid of it for yourself 02:23:16 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your .emacs. 02:23:29 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-5cd5f3baee374228] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:23:33 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23:39 I'll give it a shot and see how it works out 02:23:41 thanks! 02:23:48 I put that in an (eval-after-load "slime" ...) 02:24:18 eibmozoib [i=cope@freeshell.org] has joined #lisp 02:27:39 great, works! thanks all 02:27:40 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 02:29:16 -!- Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has left #lisp 02:35:14 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 02:35:41 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35:45 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-95.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 02:37:36 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D753.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:17 *p_l* wonders if anyone tried to do a study regarding how much code from AI Repository is still useful... you can get lost there 02:42:56 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:47:10 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:47:23 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-126-130.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:02 Okay, only one module from libcl left that I didn't cover. Dreaded versionless "-current" tarball distribution method. 02:50:12 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D753.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 02:55:54 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:57:11 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:58:15 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp134.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:00 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 03:04:05 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:05:11 Python 1.1, target AMD x86-64 03:05:21 Too bad it doesn't work very well. 03:05:40 rtoym: soon (: 03:06:31 FSVO "soon". :-) 03:08:00 egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has joined #lisp 03:08:07 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-21.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 03:08:55 Need to fix the disassembler. 03:09:14 rtoym: how did you manage to keep the same number of lowtag bits as 32 bit ports? 03:09:34 Or do you have 4 fixnum lowtags? 03:09:45 3 lowtag bits. 03:10:04 fixnums use 2, just like 32-bit ports. 03:10:56 Wang did this; I didn't bother to change it. It just means lots of work (I think) to get fixnum indices scaled properly to access lispobjs 03:11:18 mncaudill [n=nolan@67-207-138-6.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:40 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:49 Fairly certain the system (especially the GC) assumes that objects are always 2-word aligned. 03:11:54 Perhaps that's the source of the problems. Maybe some code somewhere has the fixnum scaling wrong. 03:12:25 I suppose that only means you waste a lowtag bit. 03:12:52 oh wow, this is a resurrection of the port from 2004/5ish? 03:13:05 2-word aligned. Is that a 32-bit or 64-bit word? 03:13:07 that's been sitting a long time. :) 03:13:08 How about the NIL symbol/cons pun? How does that work with tighter lowtags? 03:13:19 rtoym: whatever the system's word size is, so 64 bit on x86-64 03:14:03 foom: Yes. Only in the last year or two did I have a 64-bit machine. 03:14:27 NIL symbol/cons still seems to work. But I haven't really looked into it. 03:16:24 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:32 sellout: herep 03:17:20 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:32 t 03:18:49 Hmm. The debugger is fairly broken. Every error causes nested errors. 03:19:33 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 03:20:01 sellout: You're my nanowrimo writing buddy right? 03:20:11 Heh, yeah, totally. 03:20:31 Hey, *my* main character's name is Alan. What gives?! ;-) 03:20:53 It's a good computer geek first name :) 03:21:08 Yeah. 03:22:29 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-191-14.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:24:01 gigamonkey: writing for nanowrimo? 03:25:58 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@86.136.51.198] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:26:36 gigamonkey: BTW, I agree about the no-major-preparation-before-Nov thing, but I think next year I _will_ prepare in advance. 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I could use it to finally start writing down one of my ideas, but somehow I don't want to sully them with crappy writing that will certainly happen in those conditions... 03:29:04 -!- rlarson89 [n=reid89@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:29:06 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:06 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 03:29:06 fatelang [n=user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:06 qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-5998847a7ce1335e] has joined #lisp 03:29:06 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 03:29:06 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 03:29:06 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 03:29:06 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 03:29:06 ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 03:29:06 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined 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[n=reid89@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:32:07 de_fault [n=de_fault@88.238.221.135] has joined #lisp 03:32:11 p_l: yeah. 03:32:59 *p_l* has 3 novels-in-planning, one of them being sequel to another (that is part of those three. Sequel to still unwritten story :D) 03:33:00 p_l: well, maybe better sullied with crappy writing than stillborn with no writing at all. 03:33:16 You can always fix crappy writing after November. 03:33:25 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:33:41 true 03:33:43 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:33:46 What I'm writing is not any of the stuff that I have pre-existing notes for. But I'm just writing blind to get into the habit of writing _something_. 03:34:43 And it's also surprising to me that I write well at different times than I code well. Which is nice. 03:35:01 sellout: I don't keep any notes except in my brain, those including rough character sketches and various plot fragments 03:35:17 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:22 I apparently can't write in the morning. I just stare at the screen. But I roll out of bed at 5:00 or so and just dive into code. 03:37:13 I guess I'll use the crappiest idea right now and try to develop it into a novel ;-) 03:37:54 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B26.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:38:04 p_l: Well, if you hop on NaNoWriMo, add us as buddies :) 03:38:17 is there an slime bug causing to lose connection with sbcl on windows repeatedly 03:42:33 benny` [n=benny@i577A1B26.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:42:45 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:39 -!- benny` is now known as benny 03:44:21 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:27 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:35 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:46:53 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:01 -!- de_fault [n=de_fault@88.238.221.135] has left #lisp 03:47:17 RustyWheeler1 [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has 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-!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-68-55-111-252.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:54 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:09:20 didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 05:11:51 -!- RustyWheeler1 [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has left #lisp 05:12:11 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-247-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:12:43 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:14:13 -!- didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:15:34 Good morning! 05:17:13 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:38 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 05:23:48 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:24:36 morning beach 05:29:24 hmm... good morning and "WTF are you doing at this ungodly hour" (0524 here...) 05:34:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:27 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-64.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:38:50 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:40:27 ibnby [n=ibnby@dslb-084-059-010-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:17 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 05:42:11 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-17-20.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:02 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:44:57 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:33 rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:59:31 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-130-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:59:49 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:59:49 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:00:05 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.97.248] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:01:58 -!- ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:02:57 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:05:20 ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:06:34 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:44 fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:07 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-133-148-212.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:08:42 hi, what's the distinction between functions/macros without separation of a "-" (ie. defun, mapcar, dolist) and functions/macros with it (ie. delete-if, array-dimension, string-upcase) 06:09:09 -!- rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:09:53 i'd guess origin, but i might be completely wrong 06:10:46 common lisp is a sort of a superset of multiple lisps and during the standardization process some things came from different places 06:10:54 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw 06:12:14 haha, ah 06:16:06 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:19 nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.101.89] has joined #lisp 06:17:31 -!- ibnby [n=ibnby@dslb-084-059-010-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:05 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 06:18:11 egn: that's afaik part of what caused some people to push for EuLisp - Common Lisp was made so that it would "Common" :) 06:19:02 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:22 p_l: gottcha. yeah it seems a bit disorganized to have those naming conventions 06:19:30 or lack thereof 06:20:08 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:20:48 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:20:53 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:20:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:23:57 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:24:13 ibnby [n=ibnby@dslb-084-059-010-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:13 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:25:12 egn: well, at least you can be pretty sure nowadays that if you write your code in portable way, it will work without some crazy differences on multiple different implementations... something I'm not sure I'd try with Scheme, even with RnRS and SRFI 06:26:44 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-133-150-51.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:29 p_l: yeah, true 06:28:52 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 06:31:28 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:45 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:34:47 -!- ibnby [n=ibnby@dslb-084-059-010-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:35:34 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-37.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:36:11 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:28 sellout: still awake? 06:38:23 has anyone tried one of the windowing systems for CL lately? I just checked out wxcl and got build errors, and most other projects look abandoned 06:38:36 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:38:45 maybe not mcclim 06:39:07 "windowing systems?" 06:39:14 you mean GUI tookits? 06:39:44 gonzojive: of active ones, Ltk afaik (near) always works (even if there doesn't seem to be many updates), mcclim works, there's some new work on GTK, there're SMOKE-based Qt4.5 bindings, and of course trusty CLX 06:40:09 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:40:44 most lispers that need serious GUI support tend to end up using commercial implementations 06:41:15 that, or they know enough to contrib to their chosen system (or write their own) 06:41:29 I didn't realize that. Does Franz offer a lot of GUI tools? 06:42:51 gonzojive: Franz offers their own proprietary GUI&drawing system + CLIM (although I heard that it's a giant pile of legacy spaghetti code), LispWorks has CAPI and CLIM, MCL had CLIM & various MacOS bindings, CCL (and I guess MCL) have Obj-C bridges 06:43:19 for windows, you can always use Windows.Forms with RDNZL 06:44:02 I personally plan to port mcclim to WPF (with RDNZL) 06:44:09 p_l: you know your gui libs! 06:44:12 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo4.186.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:28 gonzojive: more like I asked your question several times over ;-) 06:46:24 much of the "serious" projects around here tend to use Web Browsers for interface (or don't have user interface) 06:47:06 yeah, CL is pretty good for web programming in my experience. non-web gui does seem to be a weak spot at the moment 06:47:42 though I should try out one of these active projects before I bash it 06:47:46 A startup for which I started asking for people for example will be probably centered around main app that has only RPC interfaces + HTML renderer 06:48:01 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:49:02 with JS application for "GUI" 06:49:23 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:49:26 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:49:54 that is not a bad way to go for a lot of interfaces, especially if you do not need any fancy interaction or graphics 06:51:03 whoa, clim has the really ugly X scroll bars in the gadget demo 06:51:20 gonzojive: well, there's place for fancy interaction and graphics - it's just that I planned it to be as agnostic as possible 06:51:37 if it doesn't have good integration abilities, then it's a doomed project 06:52:13 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:52:23 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 06:52:41 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:54:19 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:55:29 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:31 p_l: I bet the most pragmatic choice for a (cross-platform) lisp GUI library is one that piggy-backs on wxWidgets. Nobody has enough time/interest in the CL community to maintain Java Swing all on their own 06:57:02 gonzojive: nah, I think mcclim has good chances :) 06:57:05 TR2N` [n=email@89.180.143.182] has joined #lisp 06:57:22 that, and GTK and Qt backends are getting nicer and nicer 06:57:49 Qt4.5 supports all major platforms for which you could get an opensource CL implementation 07:00:39 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:56 you're right. Qt does look well-supported. now I need to see how to get mcclim to use it... 07:02:37 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:08:18 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.150.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:32 you'd have to do a full backend, just like me with WPF 07:08:34 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:08:38 Good morning! 07:09:04 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:09:10 plage: morning, and I still consider sitting at 0703 on IRC to be crazy ;-) 07:11:45 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:12:34 Maybe so. 07:13:56 p_l: I usually come here early, around 5 or so. 07:15:09 early bird gets the worm, eh... well, I can't complain, I've shot my sleep to hell 07:15:36 p_l: Also, I communicate with people in Vietnam, and they are 6h ahead of us. 07:16:29 p_l: oh god, I thought you meant that mcclim already had a Qt binding. I'll just put this GUI idea on the shelf for a while 07:16:45 plage: communicating with people in different timezones was to be my next excuse when I get caught sleeping in the computer classroom :) 07:17:39 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:17:45 Intertricity [n=Raz@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:36 Lisp should have a webcomic \:D/ 07:20:08 the one about the war with republic of haskell? ;-) 07:20:40 egomosis_ [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has joined #lisp 07:20:45 -!- egomosis_ [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has quit [Client Quit] 07:21:46 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 07:23:02 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:24:36 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:26:07 plage: 15 hours ahead of me here in San Diego, CA (or is it 14 now that we have fallen back? I can never keep track) 07:26:58 p_l, link? :o 07:27:06 tessier: Me neither. 07:27:53 plage: It takes me 24 hours door to door to travel to my mother in law's house in Vietnam. So exhausting. 07:28:03 Teclys [n=jimmykna@ip70-190-47-172.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:08 My first lisp hello world \o/ http://privatepaste.com/571RtPqJfU 07:28:17 I actually like to have an 8 hour layover in Seoul because I can get a room at their little in-airport hotel which is really nice and relaxing. 07:28:29 tessier: Yeah, I had that problem when I spent a year in New Zealand. 07:29:06 minion: Please tell Intertricity about lisppaste. 07:29:07 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 07:29:26 Intertricity: I don't remember, it was made for a book :) 07:29:33 p_l, aw 07:29:34 longkid [n=lisp@203.162.44.65] has joined #lisp 07:29:58 beach: hello sir 07:30:20 hello longkid, what's up? 07:30:38 Intertricity: congratulations! 07:31:04 plage: how r u? 07:31:21 plage, haha thanks :P now if I can get the hang of emacs, I can't wait to learn the stuff you can't do in other languages 07:31:52 -!- longkid [n=lisp@203.162.44.65] has left #lisp 07:34:14 disappearedng [n=disappea@unaffiliated/disappearedng] has joined #lisp 07:34:27 how is hashtable implemented in lisp ( lookup o(1) ) 07:34:28 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:34:57 disappearedng: Depends on the implementation. Hash tables do not have O(1) worst-case complexity. 07:35:21 well if the only data structure available is cons how do you implement lookup o1 07:35:27 disappearedng: Typically, there is a vector with a length that depends on the number of elements, and a linked list of collisions. 07:35:46 disappearedng: Who says the only data structure available is cons? 07:36:03 oh 07:36:07 disappearedng, here is a simple example of a data structure that is not a cons: #(1 2 3) 07:36:08 I didn't take into account vectors 07:36:12 disappearedng: Perhaps you don't know that Lisp already has hash tables? 07:36:22 I do , but someone just asked me that question 07:37:07 If it's in the language itself, it doesn't need to use user-visible data types for the implementation, so the fact that Lisp has vectors is irrelevant. 07:37:20 disappearedng: What did they ask exactly? 07:37:35 how are hashtables implemented in lisp 07:38:23 disappearedng: That's ambiguous. It could mean "how does a typical Lisp implementation represent hash tables" or "what would I do in order to implement hash tables in Lisp, assuming they didn't already exist". 07:39:05 well that question was basically, given our background in C, how does lisp implement that 07:39:11 http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/hashes.html#size is amusing. 07:39:53 disappearedng: Then my answer above was valid. But why did you say "if the only data structure available is cons"? 07:45:01 disappearedng: you could consider cons cell as pair of pointers... and if you introduce a raw memory access forms, you can make all other datastructures anyway ;-) 07:45:48 p_l: I fear that you might be reinforcing a misconception that cons is the only data structure in Lisp. I wanted to make sure this was straightened out. 07:47:00 disappearedng - http://sbcl.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/sbcl/sbcl/src/code/target-hash-table.lisp?revision=1.52&view=markup 07:47:58 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:48:44 ASau [n=user@host65-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:50:03 plage: sorry. I guess my lack of sleep isn't really helping :D 07:51:17 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:52:50 CFFI is failing to load a foreign library (:unix (:or "libILUT" "libILUT.so.1")) 07:52:58 disappearedng: Did you see my question? 07:53:05 /usr/lib/libILUT.so and /usr/lib/libILUT.so.1 both exist 07:53:37 any ideas what might cause this? 07:53:51 oh sorry was away 07:53:53 brb 07:56:42 Ralith: check if you have :unix in *features* 07:56:51 fe[nl]ix: this is SBCL. 07:57:24 Faed [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 07:57:39 fe[nl]ix: in addition, the error is: 07:57:48 Unable to load any of the alternatives: ("libILUT" "libILUT.so.1") 07:58:01 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:58:02 if it wasn't hitting the clause, it wouldn't even get that far 07:58:14 good morning 07:58:49 hello mvilleneuve 08:01:49 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:02:17 -!- Faed is now known as Fade 08:04:50 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:05:05 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-12-173.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:05:29 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:06:29 tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:06:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@142-11-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:07:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:11:21 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:58 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:54 anyone here with cffi experience? 08:14:21 it's refusing to load a library that I've correctly identified and have in the same dir as several other successfully loaded libs. 08:15:31 Ralith: I presume ldconfig doesn't have anything to do with it? 08:15:32 try looking at ldd output. If ldd works, so should cffi. 08:16:19 lichtblau: what would I do with ldd? 08:16:34 -!- rlarson89 [n=reid89@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:16:38 ldd parses it as a library fine. 08:16:42 nunb: I don't know? 08:16:54 all I know is CFFI is inexplicably failing here after loading several other libs without issue 08:17:07 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:17:21 -!- Teclys [n=jimmykna@ip70-190-47-172.ph.ph.cox.net] has left #lisp 08:17:52 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:17:53 Ralith: if you paste your cffi loading code, I could give it a shot. 08:18:24 lharc: git clone git://github.com/sykopomp/cl-devil.git 08:18:29 it's not even my code. 08:18:37 this same code is loading for others, too :/ 08:18:37 you're not even giving us the error message. That's not much to work with. 08:18:43 lichtblau: er, yes I am 08:18:49 *sykopomp* washes his hands. Not my code either. 08:18:49 23:58:36 < Ralith> Unable to load any of the alternatives: ("libILUT" "libILUT.so.1") 08:19:01 But usually, it's dlopen which is only saying "do not like", so you can't blame cffi for the error message. 08:19:12 [Condition of type CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR] 08:19:39 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:19:47 so what might be the issue? 08:19:51 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:19:53 ldd seems to like the lib. 08:19:56 ah, you're "if asking once doesn't help, try, try again, perhaps the answer will change" kind of guy 08:20:55 lichtblau: it's a strange problem. It's kind of inexplicable why ILUT isn't loading, if ldd likes it, and it's definitely there in a findable location. Specially considering other libs loaded through his ffi fine. 08:22:05 Ralith: not to be smug, but there is dependencies in that code and I'm not up to resolving them. If you can paste an selfstanding example I can try my best to test it here. 08:22:12 that's not strange. There are lots of possible reasons. 32 bit / 64 bit mismatches. Incorrect LD_LIBRARY_PATH. Typos. 08:22:52 Usually it works best for the person having the problem being the one to debug it. Sometimes asking the maintainer helps, too. 08:22:52 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:22:52 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:06 lharc: (cffi:define-foreign-library ilut (:unix (:or "libILUT" "libILUT.so.1")) (:windows "ILUT.dll") (t (:default "libILUT"))) 08:23:11 then load it. 08:23:19 this triggers the error here. 08:23:48 Ralith: it returns ILUT 08:23:57 lharc: then load it. 08:24:02 is there something that shuffles a sequence in the spec? a function that returns a random permutation of a sequence? i swear i have seen a simple fisher-yates implementation somewhere in there 08:24:20 lichtblau: my entire system is 32 bit; if the LD_LIBRARY_PATH was the issue, it wouldn't have loaded the several other libraries in the same place; the filenames are verified. 08:24:32 lharc: that is, (cffi:use-foreign-library ilut) 08:24:41 lharc: this assumes you have devil installed, of course 08:24:43 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:24:50 lharc pasted "cffi" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89817 08:24:55 fusss: No, but it's easy to implement, at least for vectors. 08:24:58 fusss: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/Lisp/trivial_uniform_shuffling.html 08:25:38 lharc: again, *you have to load it* 08:25:47 you can define libs all you like and it won't generate load errors because you're not loading it. 08:25:51 plage: fisher-yates is 5 lines :-) 08:25:55 lharc: (cffi:use-foreign-library ilut) 08:26:20 -!- TR2N` [n=email@89.180.143.182] has left #lisp 08:26:25 lharc annotated #89817 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89817#1 08:27:05 fusss: Yeah in alexandria 08:28:16 fusss: You probably read a definition in PCL 08:28:39 lharc: *shrug* 08:28:40 tcr: most likely, thanks :-) 08:28:44 that's not anything like my error 08:29:32 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.238] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:32:39 this is interesting 08:32:43 if I delete the unix clause entirely 08:32:53 causing it to fall back on the default of "libILUT" 08:32:58 I get 08:32:59 /usr/lib/libILUT.so: undefined symbol: _sqrt_table. 08:33:50 but if I do (:unix "libILUT") 08:33:54 libILUT: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory. 08:34:14 hm, appending .so brings that to the same point 08:34:23 guess the default case has extension magic 08:35:23 Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:35:40 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 08:37:39 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-166.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:38:08 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:38:22 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:38:36 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:38:55 Ralith: find what lib has _sqrt_table, lichtblau hinted you with ldd. I dont have libITUL installed and cant find it as a debian package. 08:39:28 lharc: I told you, it's in devil. 08:39:29 :P 08:39:39 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:39:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-20.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:44 and it's lib ILUT. 08:39:45 er 08:39:47 libILUT. 08:40:46 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-0e44b4ae29186e48] has joined #lisp 08:41:56 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:43:26 Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:43:33 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-0e44b4ae29186e48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:43:37 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:16 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/session] has joined #lisp 08:44:23 lharc annotated #89817 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89817#2 08:44:31 hello gents 08:45:04 hey Haplo_. This is becoming a habit on your part. 08:46:08 well :) when I have some spare time it is always a pleasure to spent it with all of you 08:47:11 by the way, have you seen archaleus lately ? 08:47:44 Haplo_: No, it it turns out he has been in Paris for a while, and he is leaving this week. 08:47:55 Haplo_: But he never got in touch :( 08:48:12 plage: oh, do you know where he is going? 08:48:24 Haplo_: He offered to come to Bordeaux this week, but I have been busy. 08:48:42 Haplo_: Yes, he told me, but I can't remember. Somewhere in the USA I think. 08:49:52 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:16 Haplo_: First back to TLOTLWC and then hopefully San Francisco. 08:50:33 zut ! 08:50:46 I could have helped for bordeaux 08:51:27 Haplo_: I have the feeling he didn't really want to come, but he felt guilty for not contacting me. 08:52:23 lharc: I'm sure devil is packaged in debian; it's a very commonly used lib 08:53:29 Ralith: yes I found it. It works also, ie loads. 08:53:35 damn 08:53:36 :/ 08:54:32 redblue [i=star@ppp058.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:54:47 Ralith: how about that "nm -D /usr/lib/libILUT.so | grep sqrt" on your machine? 08:56:39 U _sqrt_table 08:56:45 that means it's referenced externally, right? 08:56:56 Ralith: yes 08:57:22 any way to query ldd as to where it resolves to? 08:58:18 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Getting off stoned server - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 08:58:26 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 08:58:40 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:59:16 Ralith: something like "ldd /usr/lib/libILUT.so.1.0.0 | awk '{print $3}' | xargs nm -D" 08:59:49 skeptomai|away [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:25 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:13:08 lharc: it would seem that _sqrt_table is not defined in any other lib I can find. 09:13:12 can you identify where it is on your system? 09:14:11 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:17:02 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:29 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179161249.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:21:43 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:22:44 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D753.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:54 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.232] has joined #lisp 09:27:57 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:28:25 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.101.89] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:29:48 lharc? 09:30:58 qsun [n=qsun@67.223.233.193] has joined #lisp 09:32:05 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:34:26 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-12-173.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:27 Pete_R [n=quassel@heimdall.info.uaic.ro] has joined #lisp 09:34:51 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-13-22.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:34:54 Hi people! how can i make an executable from lisp file? 09:35:34 Pete_R: Depends on your implementation. 09:35:46 whether is its possible and how exactly depends on your implementation 09:35:51 mm 09:36:03 I use sbcl on linux 09:36:57 plage: and I need something like a Makefile to generate an executable 09:37:54 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-13807e98395ceb83] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:37:57 Pete_R: Look at the documentation for save-lisp-and-die 09:38:21 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-6b3c4416e60f519e] has joined #lisp 09:39:23 plage: Thanks! 09:39:27 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@heimdall.info.uaic.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:42:37 Ralith: I seem to have an other version of libilut, nm -D on ilut shows sqrt 09:42:58 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-6b3c4416e60f519e] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:43:28 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-7295f33e19fe87d8] has joined #lisp 09:43:53 nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.106.39] has joined #lisp 09:43:54 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 09:45:23 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-13-22.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:46:29 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.55.10] has joined #lisp 09:49:33 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:33 lharc: no _sqrt_table? 09:50:56 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:52:59 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:54:46 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:55:47 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:56:18 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:57:25 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:01:33 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:01:50 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Client Quit] 10:05:35 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:09:22 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:11:38 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 10:11:45 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:11:51 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:12:39 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:54 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 10:13:11 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:17:02 -!- qsun [n=qsun@67.223.233.193] has quit ["Changing server"] 10:18:17 Wow, I'm really getting annoyed by asdf. 10:18:33 I must be doing something wrong 10:18:50 no, you probably aren't 10:19:08 asdf is adequate for the basic job of describing systems and some simple relationships between them 10:19:24 the problem with it is that its extensibility is essentially random 10:19:30 it might work, it might not, it might blow up in your face 10:19:38 (my experience, anyway) 10:21:42 I'll have the opportunity (that is infrastructure) to stress-test sb-sequences. I wouldn't like to do the additional effort if you won't have time to listen, though. 10:22:01 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:15 I don't have time to listen in real-time. I do have two dedicated sbcl hacking days coming up in a month and a half! 10:26:44 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:13 hm, why is the object created by (make-array 10 :element-type 'fixnum :initial-element 0) typep to sequence, but its type-of is not subtypep to SEQUENCE? 10:27:58 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:28:47 Hm no that's not correctly stating what I'm seeing 10:29:04 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:29:09 Why is (SIMPLE-ARRAY FIXNUM (10)) a subtype of SEQUENCE, but (SIMPLE-ARRAY FIXNUM) not? 10:29:28 because the latter also contains multi-dimensional array, I guess? 10:29:58 Yay for monologues if they extend one's understanding 10:31:52 :-) 10:32:11 qsun [n=qsun@67.223.233.193] has joined #lisp 10:32:39 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D753.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 10:33:15 Did pfd write some code to normalize type-specifiers for the ansi suite? 10:37:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:38:35 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:13 *p_l* just found a serious reason to talk with LLVM from CL 10:42:20 namely, OpenCL, especially if I find a way to hook to clang included in the SDKs 10:47:11 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:50:50 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 10:54:34 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:54:48 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 11:00:36 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:52 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:03:06 sb-unix:unix-file-kind, is it renamed or should I use something else? (for sbcl 1.0.29.11.debian) 11:09:22 sb-impl::native-file-kind is one thing i've seen mentioned 11:10:16 -!- rlb3 [n=robert@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:10:48 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-juwnonbujjnthhse] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:48 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 11:11:05 Xach: right.. but wich one to use seems to be a matter of .. find-symbol? shrug. 11:12:15 you could use exported functionality from sb-posix 11:12:28 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:12:38 Xof: right, I'm looking into that. 11:12:45 both sb-unix and sb-impl are documented as internal packages, which sbcl developers tend to feel easy about changing 11:13:00 Xof: ok, I thought sb-unix was external. 11:13:20 Xof: (i.e. whoever wrote the code in question thought that.) 11:13:39 mdj [n=user@120.19.65.95] has joined #lisp 11:13:58 unix: is external in cmucl 11:14:04 which is an excuse if not a reason :-) 11:14:42 -!- mdj [n=user@120.19.65.95] has left #lisp 11:15:33 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:15:56 timchen119 [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 11:17:06 rlb3 [n=robert@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:31 rlonstei1 [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:46 Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 11:22:10 ziga` [n=user@89.142.51.212] has joined #lisp 11:22:35 Hi I have some success with unicode input on McCLIM-CLX 11:22:40 anyone here that cares? 11:24:15 I need to determine if a pathname is a directory. Is there a better way than sb-posix:stat ? 11:25:50 -!- rlonstein [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:26:12 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:29:13 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has joined #lisp 11:29:29 hello 11:30:47 egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has joined #lisp 11:36:55 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:37:31 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:39:01 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:39:21 -!- Harag [n=Harag@wbs-196-2-104-172.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:40:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:46:50 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:38 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 11:50:37 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:50:37 ziga`: sounds great. :) 11:51:10 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:51:23 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:52:24 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-169.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:54:10 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 11:56:16 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:56:44 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:34 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-17-20.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:58:09 when doing a step through code, does inspecting the backtrace usually close the connection? 12:01:59 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:20 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:02:23 x2cast [i=57de7f17@gateway/web/freenode/x-f2b94ba8b9efa7fa] has joined #lisp 12:02:26 hi there! 12:02:54 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:03:05 tinker [n=timmy@thbh-ip-vsat-2-p254.vsat.telkom-ipnet.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:03:18 basic question: is it better to define variables of calculations that are repeated with "setq" or write the expression again? 12:03:34 let-binding 12:03:42 what? 12:03:55 use let* and do calcuations there (with binding variables) 12:04:00 ah 12:04:02 good 12:04:05 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:04:08 if they are not too long 12:04:10 however I'm using a crippled lisp 12:04:17 x2cast: Pretend setq doesn't exist, use setf always. But yeah, use let if you can. 12:04:19 so I can only use one of those 2 12:04:21 you think in C :D 12:04:28 yes I use in C 12:04:29 No lisp is *that* crippled 12:04:30 :D 12:04:34 x2cast: What lisp? 12:04:39 unfortunately I'm using VisualLisp 12:04:51 but I don't know where to ask this elsewhere 12:04:52 ...I spoke too soon 12:05:16 so I want to know also the answer for the good lisps 12:05:28 which seems to be "let" 12:05:35 "AutoLISP is a small, dynamically scoped LISP (list processing language). It lacks modern LISP features such as a macro system, settable list structure or let bindings." 12:05:52 :S 12:05:53 I can't imagine there's a lisp without let. That's crazy. 12:05:59 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:06:02 well, is what I have to use :( 12:06:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:06:22 so if I don't have let, which would be better? 12:06:28 Not only does it lack let, it lacks the facility you need to implement let! 12:06:31 x2cast: setq 12:06:44 sellout: thanks 12:07:00 You could use lambda functions, but that's ugly 12:07:08 Heh 12:07:16 and that's because it caches that variable instead of makeing the calculation again? 12:07:26 I'm rather new to "functional" programming 12:07:47 In which case, you could do yourself a favour and use some other lisp 12:07:52 so I thought that maybe it had a special method for caching "expressions" so it would be faster than actually saving the variable 12:08:14 Jafet: sure, but that's what Autocad has and what I have to implement the functionality for 12:08:16 (display x) (display x) ; cache this 12:09:09 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:09:30 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:09:51 x2cast: Well, sometimes compilers can pull out common subexpressions, but it has to know they don't have side effects and it's not a guarantee, so better not to try to guess what the compiler's going to do. 12:10:02 Man, my computer is working hard at the moment. 12:10:03 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10:25 I would suggest using autocad to do CAD, and a modern lisp language to learn lisp. 12:10:54 sellout: ok, thanks 12:11:12 Jafet: I can't choose 12:11:41 As you wish 12:12:16 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:18:47 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:59 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:22:06 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.27.128] has joined #lisp 12:22:17 pdponze [n=user@47-86.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:23:51 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:38 -!- x2cast [i=57de7f17@gateway/web/freenode/x-f2b94ba8b9efa7fa] has left #lisp 12:29:26 egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has joined #lisp 12:31:53 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:53 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:32:58 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:34:45 blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:49 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 12:36:10 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 12:36:29 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:37:19 -!- disappearedng [n=disappea@unaffiliated/disappearedng] has left #lisp 12:38:16 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.27.128] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:38:18 is there a way to make CCL not check types of class slots? 12:40:55 Grue`: Don't specify them? 12:41:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:43:15 well, I didnt specify them. for some reason clsql:standard-db-object has a slot with type NIL, and CCL really doesn't like when it gets initialized 12:47:50 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:49:26 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:50:19 Geralt [n=Geralt@vpn-cl-164-2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:27 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:50:32 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 12:51:47 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:52:16 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:52:18 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:53:30 -!- billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 12:53:37 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:55:25 *p_l* ponders if anyone would be interested nowadays in native *Lisp 12:56:10 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:56:11 G'morning all. 12:56:22 nyef: morning 12:56:43 ... clsql really has a class with a slot specialized to not be able to hold anything? 12:56:48 hi nyef 12:57:21 I guess that makes a twisted kind of sense, actually, as subclasses are permitted to relax slot type constraints. 12:58:01 really? 12:58:09 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:12 *p_l* looks into compiling Lisp code to GPU 12:59:31 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:57 it doesn't look that hard except that so far I think I have to generate textual source 13:00:05 *nyef* wonders if the GPU on his current system is usable for doing parallel computations... 13:01:33 Hrm. nVidia C51 [Geforce 6150 Go]... 13:01:46 nyef: not with "official" drivers etc. 13:02:07 but you can still use cpu backend of OpenCL 13:02:43 and of course you can always try using shaders directly 13:03:30 nyef: yep, I think it's a bug though. it's supposed to be T, but most implementations just ignore :type nil, except for CCL 13:03:49 So... "no on the GPU, but you can still write code that would work if you had a usable GPU, or you can try to bodge something up using the graphics path directly"? 13:03:56 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:58 nyef: yeah 13:04:19 first GPGPU apps were written back on GeForce 4xxx Ti, iirc 13:04:36 *GeForce 4 13:05:26 Grue`: Sorry I missed the middle ... what lib is specifying :type nil? 13:05:27 I wonder if the nouveau people have any GPGPU stuff going? 13:05:43 sellout: clsql, apparently. 13:05:56 nyef: don't expect OpenCL on 6150 - there are various primitives missing in hw 13:07:07 p_l: *lisp* -> GPU? Doesn't sound like a very worthwhile endeavour. I'd focus on a much more restricted DSL. 13:08:19 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:23 Oh faxing, you never work and you should be long dead, but I'm still forced to deal with you. 13:08:31 pkhuong: not a complete lisp - more like *Lisp, with a "master" process and "compute" functions written in a restricted subset 13:09:08 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 13:09:58 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-7295f33e19fe87d8] has left #lisp 13:10:19 sellout: Heh. We have a fax machine here for the occasional required outbound, and use a fax->email gateway for the required inbounds, and try to send everything as scanned documents over email instead of faxing whenever possible. 13:11:19 it would be funny to make *Lisp simulator a testbed for OpenCL :D 13:12:05 "Wait, that's supposed to be legible? The resolution is so bad that the text lines are -lucky- if they're three pixels high and it's a rather light grey instead of black, and you want me to scan it and have it be at least recognizable?" 13:14:03 p_l: What I was thinking was that as there's a decently-specified input language for describing processes and a (presumably) unknown binary output language for describing processes, you could throw some standard statistical techniques against the compiler in order to deduce the structure of the output so that you don't have to deal with the textual intermediate descriptions. 13:14:16 ... That was more coherent when I thought it. 13:14:39 -!- sepi [n=enigma@213.251.184.143] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:40 nyef: there isn't standardised binary representation, I fear 13:15:27 Right, so you'd have to break it down by backend. 13:15:57 actually, there certainly isn't a standardised one, since the code has to run on ATi, nVidia, x86, x86-64, Cell's SPU and more 13:16:24 it's just a coincidence that all available implementation use common bytecode :D 13:16:31 (to some extent) 13:18:01 *Xach* pines for the lonely stockholm lispers 13:18:13 ... oh, a non-LLVM OpenCL implementation! 13:19:18 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:11 right now, OpenCL supports altogether: x86, x86-64, ATi Stream, nVidia CUDA, POWER/PPC (32bit + SIMD), Cell SPU 13:23:42 IBM's implementation is the only one that isn't based on clang/llvm 13:24:08 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:24:09 -!- frodef [n=frode@tinnitus.netfonds.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:26:27 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:23 -!- Intertricity [n=Raz@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:38 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 13:33:51 -!- tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:34:24 tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:19 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:36:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:37:00 *Xach* wishes get-decoded-time took an optional tz parameter 13:37:34 frodef [n=frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:39:46 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:06 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:40:33 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 13:41:02 oh no, since when Parenscript doesn't support (.slot object) notation? 13:41:27 (decode-timestamp (now) :timezone cest) works 13:41:29 lapmon [n=lapmon@p4FE9DAE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:13 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:55 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 13:48:34 no! 13:53:13 amount of spam on comp.lang.lisp is astonishing.. 13:53:50 shit attracts flies, you know :-) 13:54:06 comp.lang.lisp is shit? 13:54:12 udzinari: USENET as a whole has been basically buried under spam 13:54:20 damn, looks like Parenscript mantainer went rogue and it has completely different syntax now 13:55:05 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.66.132] has joined #lisp 13:55:22 Grue`: rogues love backstab :) 13:56:10 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp058.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:56:31 *Xach* sees about a spam per week on comp.lang.lisp 13:56:33 udzinari: it's unmoderated newsgroup, and USENET falls into decline, while the spambots don't disappear 13:56:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:20 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:10 *tcr* is writing the macrolet of doom 13:58:17 p_l: and there seems to be no light in that.. 13:58:37 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:59:40 I always assumed that spam on cll was a non-problem on NNTP servers, considering that the people I've heard complaining about it were google groups users. Perhaps google doesn't process cancels? BICBW. 13:59:40 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:00:17 how can i make a float a fixnum 14:00:23 not that the non-spam part of cll is worth reading anyway 14:00:59 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:18 Guthur: By throwing away some of its information and stuffing it into fixnum range. 14:01:28 lichtblau: I seem to come to the same conclusion.. really not worth 14:01:44 It's a real timesaver, in a way, to simply not read usenet until someone points out a specific interesting article. 14:01:44 I have been trying to embed Ogre/Okra in cl-gtk2 and all it came down to after hours of bughunting, googling, etc was a simple "(sleep 1)" at the right spot (GTK needed some time). Suboptimal, but good enough for now. 14:01:51 *aerique* sighs 14:02:29 Xach: indeed thats a given 14:02:38 Suboptimal to say the least. You took a timing-based synchronization bug and made it subtler. 14:02:44 Guthur: see floor and friends 14:02:56 lichtblau: I don't think any nntp server processes cancels; my understanding is that quite a lot of rogue traffic is cancels of legitimate traffic 14:03:01 nyef: yeah but at least i know where the problem is now 14:03:11 True. 14:03:17 Xach great cheers 14:04:16 are there any lisp events planned in europe for the next year? 14:04:27 varjag: At least 3. 14:04:30 another ECLM i hope 14:04:34 oh 14:04:40 varjag: how big must the event be? 14:04:55 Yeah, there are meetings in places, too. 14:05:01 Xach, like cebit only more fun! 14:05:05 Hamburg Lispers are meeting in hamburg. 14:05:25 with no maintenaince on the german roads between my place and the event so i can really enjoy their motorbahns to the fullest 14:05:40 a bit on the formal side would be nice i guess 14:05:45 like a conference or something 14:05:52 varjag: I don't know of any meetings in Norway, so you probably want to look at the bigger ones: ECLM, ELW, and ELS. 14:06:02 yup 14:06:24 what ELW and ELS stand for? 14:06:39 European Lisp {Workshop,Symposium}? 14:06:49 One of those (ELW?) is part of a larger European conference, so you don't need to be all lisp, and it'll be bigger overall. 14:06:57 i see 14:07:06 Xof: okay. It's possible that my idea of usenet is entirely out of date, or that de.* is more civilized than comp.*. 14:07:44 But it's not that long ago that the administrative de.* groups were full of discussions like "why did you fremdcancel someone else's post? that's against policy...!" etc, so evidently cancels weren't just being processed, but also reviewed, discussed to death, and subject to checks as to who did what. 14:08:02 genova, italy mm 14:08:12 lichtblau: cll through my isp isn't too bad, spam-wise 14:08:50 so i should finish lisp port of the product before summer, and lure the employer to pay the trip 14:09:52 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 14:10:42 -!- ASau [n=user@host65-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:13:19 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:13:47 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest13094 14:14:31 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 14:16:12 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.11.98] has joined #lisp 14:16:54 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:18:42 pkhuong: So I changed with-sequence-iterator from being based on make-sequence-iterator to being based on call-with-sequence-iterators (which itself uses flet+dx to achieve stack-allocated closures.) 14:18:46 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B26.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:18:52 pkhuong: Now I'm excited to do some benchmarking! 14:18:53 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:02 -!- Guest13094 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:20:50 -!- kuwabara2 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 14:21:19 tcr: How can I get named-readtables? 14:21:26 benny [n=benny@i577A102B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:21:45 via darcs, or tarball, or let clbuild do it 14:21:52 How can I get it via darcs? 14:22:32 the url is in the "header" of the documentation (brb) 14:22:49 Where is the documentation? 14:23:08 is it http://common-lisp.net/project/editor-hints/darcs/named-readtables/doc/named-readtables.html ? 14:23:20 the darcs command there gives me an error: "Not a repository" 14:26:45 Xach: http://common-lisp.net/project/editor-hints/darcs/named-readtables/ 14:27:03 CFFI question ... I specified a foreign function as taking an argument of type :double. I call it with 0.4, and get a "value 0.4 is not of the expected type DOUBLE-FLOAT." error. The statement is true, but should that really be an error? Why does it not just accept REAL? 14:27:09 Thanks. Is there a way to discover that without asking on IRC? 14:27:18 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 14:27:23 sellout: yeah, maybe it should. 14:27:48 p_l, I just sent you a notification about the list, but I'm unsure if gmail doesn't blacklist my domain (it has been known to do that in the past, so..) 14:28:08 sellout: it's the underlying implementation signalling that error. cl-opengl has some definitions that coerce the arguments. 14:28:15 Xach: I think tcr needs to replace the " (to be changed)" line and replace it with "" 14:28:30 ok 14:28:51 sellout: At least it didn't silently do the wrong thing... And REAL? Really? 14:28:59 "clbuild now following upstream faster than upstream itself does!" 14:29:09 i really like the named-readtables idea and i hope it becomes easy to find & use, and widely used. 14:29:26 *luis* likes named-readtables as well. 14:29:34 deepfire: it arrived 14:30:01 Good. 14:30:10 *deepfire* off 14:31:09 nyef: Why not REAL? 14:32:13 lichtblau, Xach: Oops 14:32:21 cl-store, almost more reliable than sqlite3 :-/ 14:32:42 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:04 *Xach* is pleased to have answered Shamwow's stack overflow question before rainer 14:33:29 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 14:33:31 that is a tough thing to do :) 14:34:13 it could just be the beer, or mayb enot, but is http://www.yellowpages.com/ down for eveyrone else or just me? 14:34:14 Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:34:37 fusss: just you. 14:34:49 he'll shoot right past your answer with a three page essay getting 100 points on that anyway 14:34:50 &$^# 14:35:10 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:36:48 lichtblau: are you staying in an hotel in London? 14:36:59 nicdev [n=nicdev@umass-950-240.wireless.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 14:36:59 afk 14:37:33 hello I'va a problem with asdf and a method I've defined: the method is 14:38:16 *fusss* is sick of dutch programmer dudes who look like girls 14:38:29 -!- nicdev [n=nicdev@umass-950-240.wireless.umass.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 14:38:30 kiuma pasted "problem programmatically calling asdf:oos" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89833 14:38:46 luis: Ah, I see, you just map to the impl's ffi types, so there's no guarding or conversion done by CFFI for those types. 14:38:59 sellout: Because most computer systems operate in terms of integers, rationals, or floating-point numbers, and not anything capable of representing irrational numbers exactly. 14:39:09 kiuma: you should also paste the error you get, and what you expected to happen instead 14:39:14 kiuma: is there any other way to call asdf? 14:39:27 nyef: Hey, I didn't name the Lisp type. 14:39:35 Fair enough, I guess. 14:40:49 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:41:33 fusss: are there a lot of dutch programmer dudes who look like girls? :) 14:41:37 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:44 sellout: yeah, and that is unfortunate since it'll generate different behaviour on different Lisps. But I'm still undecided whether we should be strict or just coerce the argument. 14:42:40 fusss, I'm trying to set an autodeploy system for claw so that a lisplet can be directly registered into claw 14:42:54 luis: I'm no IEEE expert, but it seems like "promoting" at least smaller floats up to bigger floats is safe. 14:43:03 (eq 'claw 'my-pet-project) 14:44:18 And I would guess that coercing generally does the right thing, and where it doesn't the developer needs to handle it explicitly anyway, as they don't want the user seeing a 0.4 is not of type DOUBLE-FLOAT error. *shrug* I'll make translators for now. 14:44:36 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-37.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:45:21 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:50 Xach, lichtblau: Thanks, it's fixed now. 14:47:52 very strange macro-expansion from calling asdf from repl is different from C-x-m 14:48:00 mm.. 14:49:57 tcr: great! 14:51:26 sellout: FSVO safe. Once one assumes that the expected types of the arguments are known to the programmer, what difference should it make whether the arguments are "promoted" or "demoted" to the expected type? 14:52:26 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:52:35 ftype declarations are so fucking unreadable :) 14:52:57 tcr: write a type definition (: 14:53:30 good! it was the usual problem of dirty .fasl around. I'm able do auto deploy :) 14:54:04 pkhuong: I actually use my own wrapper on top of it. (define-api my+ (x y) (fixnum fixnum => fixnum) (+ x y)) 14:54:52 tcr: and I use unportable facilities. 14:55:04 defknown? 14:55:09 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:55:23 *derive-function-types* 14:55:40 unfortunately that only propagates downwards 14:55:42 yay unportable facilities! 14:57:27 tcr: eh? (defun foo (x) (declare (fixnum x) (values fixnum &optional)) (logior x 1)) gives me what I want. 14:57:45 luis: yes, the base2stay.com 14:58:28 pkhuong: Where does *d-f-t* come into play there? 14:58:53 tcr: no need for an ftype declaim. 14:59:08 haven't been there before though, so I'm not in a position to make a qualified recommendation 14:59:10 Ah right 14:59:32 pkhuong: well define-api expands to check-types on-sbcl platforms ;) 14:59:39 on non-sbcl platforms 15:01:55 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-142.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:01 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.11.98] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:04:59 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:07:35 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 15:07:59 milanj [n=milan@212.200.217.52] has joined #lisp 15:09:53 lichtblau: thanks 15:10:26 has anyone here used manardb? 15:10:42 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-69.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:14:20 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-13-22.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 15:18:21 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 15:18:48 rlarson89 [n=reid85@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:48 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:18:49 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 15:23:22 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 15:26:44 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:27:55 madnificent: the author probably has (goes by the nick c|mell) 15:28:59 luis: planning a trip? 15:30:45 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:09 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31:13 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:19 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:31:28 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Success] 15:31:57 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:33:02 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:37:26 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:40:52 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 15:41:32 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 15:41:52 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:42:15 egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has joined #lisp 15:42:20 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has quit [Client Quit] 15:43:00 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:43:40 -!- joga [n=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:05 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-17-20.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:20 -!- cipher [i=weinsd0@monica.cs.rpi.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:46:00 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:05 cmm-: yes, but he isn't here right now :) 15:46:25 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:34 cmm-: I'm just trying to get it running, and I'm failing due to (what I believe is) a lack of documentation 15:46:46 -!- Grue` [n=grue@masq.snto-msu.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 15:47:40 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 15:48:28 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:49:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:49:55 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.84.241] has joined #lisp 15:51:18 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:00 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 15:52:31 fawxtin` [n=user@litio.certi.org.br] has joined #lisp 15:56:04 jleija_ [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:51 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:44 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:00:48 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 16:01:17 rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:37 which is the 'preferred' library to connect to postgresql ? 16:03:29 postmodern? 16:03:44 kiuma: postmodern is nice. i use pg.lisp to talk to older postgres installations. 16:04:06 kiuma: you can use postmodern's symbolic sql library with other connection libraries, too. 16:04:10 -!- fawxtin [n=user@150.162.165.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:31 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:05:08 Xach, but if I want to use plain sql ? 16:05:55 and also isn't clsql good ? ...just to know 16:06:10 and to avoid useless complicated solutions 16:06:32 kiuma: what is your aim? 16:06:45 kiuma: you can use plain sql also. 16:06:54 -!- pdponze [n=user@47-86.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:06:58 kiuma: clsql only does querries, whereas postmodern has an ORM too 16:07:06 kiuma: for postgres, i found that i couldn't really understand the things clsql was doing sometimes. 16:07:21 madnificent: that is incorrect. 16:08:01 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-142.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:08:05 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:31 Xach, thanks 16:08:38 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:09:48 and does pg work with the most recent postgresql implementations (I mean 8.4.*) 16:09:57 should do 16:10:08 kiuma: pg.lisp supports the 2.0 protocol, which hasn't changed recently 16:10:22 I think postgres accepts connections from old clients, anyway 16:10:25 Xach: does pgsql have a mapping? 16:10:55 madnificent: What is pgsql? 16:12:04 *madnificent* is confused, gets back to sleep (I guess pg.lisp was in my head) 16:13:04 last question: I see that there is CL-SMTP smtp client, any client for pop3 and imap ? 16:13:45 kiuma: Check out mel and mel-base. 16:13:59 thanks 16:14:45 I hope to finally replace at least my java website with a CL claw one :) 16:15:17 *kami-* respects kiuma for his honesty on #lisp 16:15:39 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:04 -!- fawxtin` [n=user@litio.certi.org.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:14 fawxtin` [n=user@150.162.165.254] has joined #lisp 16:16:19 kiuma: Together with mvilleneuve, we have a long-term project to write an email client named "Stamp". I'll suggest it again this year as as student project. 16:18:26 fefefefe [i=53e35f0f@gateway/web/freenode/x-5b9e1097b0855002] has joined #lisp 16:20:48 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:56 kami-, I'm very near to porting it, I only need to upgrade the dojotoolkit claw-html integration and adding smpt capabilities 16:21:26 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:21:28 *smtp 16:22:16 -!- fawxtin` [n=user@150.162.165.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:22:29 fawxtin` [n=user@litio.certi.org.br] has joined #lisp 16:23:25 redblue [i=star@ppp111.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:26:49 beach, anyway keep me informed on Stamp please, I could create a web frontend similar to the one here http://demos.dojotoolkit.org/demos/mail/ 16:26:54 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:56 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2997.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:17 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:46 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:28:57 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:00 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 16:33:43 -!- rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:07 -!- lapmon [n=lapmon@p4FE9DAE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:14 fihi09 [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:14 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:41:42 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 16:41:51 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo5.252.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:01 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:35 kiuma: OK, no problem. 16:45:25 kiuma: The main problem we have at the moment is to parse a message into different mime parts and make sure that the character encoding is correct. 16:46:12 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:53:09 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:53:41 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 16:58:42 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:59:27 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:02:20 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-17-20.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:04:20 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:23 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:04:28 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-32f5829099517b1b] has joined #lisp 17:05:01 swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has joined #lisp 17:06:20 Xof: yes! 17:07:23 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:50 yay 17:08:15 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:29 Regenaxer [n=baldur@pd9568a7a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:08:52 Xof: got any hotel/hostel suggestions? 17:09:01 ha. No, I live here 17:09:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:09:27 Heh, typical response. :) 17:10:24 coliv [n=Coliveir@173.12.30.65] has joined #lisp 17:13:04 milanj- [n=milan@91.150.101.140] has joined #lisp 17:13:07 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:34 Hello Fare. 17:13:41 hi, nyef 17:14:33 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:18 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:16:19 Xof: anyway, as soon as I figure out whether my gf will be going as well and I buy the plane tickets, I'll send you an email. 17:16:29 grand 17:16:55 *Xof* doesn't know whether to expect a large number of last-minute registrations, or an ending more like a whimper 17:18:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:02 did you spam 100 vaguely lisp-related mailing lists with multiple announcements like lisp conference organizers usually do? 17:19:51 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:04 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:20:17 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:20 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:20:35 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.217.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:54 and invite weinreb to give a talk about why ccl is so much better? 17:21:40 luis: You'll stay in base2stay too? 17:21:45 tcr: But it's obvious why ccl is so much better: They have far superior windows support! 17:22:00 lichtblau: no 17:22:08 though I have that to do soon for els2010 17:22:30 tcr: not if I can find something cheaper 17:23:07 yeah I'm just looking at the prices... if you don't take your gf with you, we may share a room to reduce the price for both of us 17:23:07 tcr: are you going as well? 17:23:18 right, I was thinking the same 17:23:29 If the trip won't get too expensive, I'd like 17:24:17 tcr: we could stay here: www.generatorhostels.com -- seems cheaper and nearer 17:24:57 pretty girls on the front side, major selling point 17:26:13 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:27:01 *tcr* cannot find the announcement, and cannot find the even't website via google. 17:27:24 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:28 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:28:55 "even't"? 17:29:17 google for "sbcl10" wfm 17:29:42 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:29:55 I googled for "sbcl birthday" which got me to its 5th birthday 17:30:22 luis: how long do you intend to stay? 17:30:27 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 17:30:36 *Xof* remembers its fifth birthday 17:31:29 huh, I got an email to become an allegro 8.2 beta tester 17:31:30 tcr: I plan to arrive friday night and leave wednesday morning 17:31:33 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-68-45.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:32:10 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:32:20 tcr: a friend has sugested looking for places around the London Bridge area. 17:32:36 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 17:32:43 London Bridge is (a) central and (b) an easy train ride away from Goldsmiths 17:33:05 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:15 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:33:22 nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:36:20 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:37:27 Xof: that's good to know, thanks. 17:37:33 -!- Haplo_ [n=ihatchon@LPuteaux-156-14-10-37.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:51 it is also convenient for the financial district, so "cheap" may not be on the list 17:38:16 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 17:38:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:28 I found a cheap hostel there but it seems to only have a female dorm available. 17:41:16 ah, but it's got cheap double rooms. 17:41:55 tcr: http://www.st-christophers.co.uk/london-hostels/london/london-bridge 17:42:19 robyonrails [n=roby@host25-176-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:42:37 Joreji_ [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:43:57 billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:59 luis: Does your flight go to London/Gatwick? 17:44:00 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:44:23 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:45:00 lichtblau: hah! rainer conceded defeat to my superior "awake at the right time" skills. 17:46:02 -!- billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:46:36 billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:04 tcr: yes 17:47:31 luis: What are your arrival, departure times? 17:48:03 friday: easyJet LIS-LGW 19:50 22:30 17:48:09 haven't bought them yet 17:48:27 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:27 and on wednesday the departure is at 8am IIRC 17:49:46 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:50:58 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:51:32 I could get a flight which arrives Fri at 22:05 (although I do not know which timezone that time is relative to) 17:51:40 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.66.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:10 tcr: flight times are usually in local timezones 17:52:11 -!- billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 17:53:08 departure is either 6:20am, or 17:50 17:53:14 on wednesday 17:53:28 I think we should take this to private conversation 17:53:29 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:54:42 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:54:48 Xof: 189 Greenwich High Road is a good location as well, right? 17:54:54 yes, indeed. 17:56:08 TR2N [i=email@89.180.189.41] has joined #lisp 17:56:23 rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:36 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:32 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:57 ejs [n=eugen@46-52-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:29 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:03 I wonder if I need a passport to visit Britain. 18:00:52 yes 18:01:27 Well that's a problem now. 18:01:33 -!- jmaclean [n=jmaclean@194.75.202.163] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:44 kiuma: obselete fasls are a pain 18:02:11 nite all zzZZZ 18:02:13 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.4/20091016092926]"] 18:02:13 find is your friend. :P 18:02:43 tcr: are you an EU citizen? 18:03:05 fusss, there's a painkiller recipe for SBCL, btw. 18:03:41 Fade: I am, but it seems that britain is not a full member of the Schengen Agreement 18:04:06 serichsen [n=user@xdsl-213-168-121-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:04:09 good evening 18:04:14 I have an irish passport and I've never entered britain w/out hitting passport control. 18:05:38 I wonder how long it takes to get one 18:06:01 according to http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/de/Laenderinformationen/Grossbritannien/Sicherheitshinweise.html a personalausweis is sufficient 18:06:04 what country? 18:06:43 germany 18:06:57 lichtblau: My Personalausweis has expired a few years ago 18:07:02 :-) 18:07:08 when I was in munich, my gf at the time managed to get one in a couple of days. 18:07:22 that sounds reassuring 18:07:33 i think there was an 'expedite' fee 18:09:56 tcr: uh, oh. Not just will you have to pay the express passport fee, but also the fine for forgetting to renew. :-) 18:11:11 Yeah it seems like all together it'll be more than the flight costs 18:11:17 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host25-176-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 18:12:22 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:12:31 nite all 18:12:37 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:12:55 the fine for forgetting to renew is very low 18:13:15 I'm not entirely sure, but I think I didn't have any valid id for over a year and paid either 5 or 15eur 18:13:37 you call that low? 18:13:44 yes 18:13:47 tcr: nah, neither the UK nor Ireland are part of the schengen agreement 18:14:37 (though in practice if you're European it's easy to get in and out, and there's a free travel agreement _between_ the UK and Ireland) 18:15:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:23:48 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:08 legumbre [n=leo@r190-133-157-144.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:25:13 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 18:25:17 Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:27:49 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-133-148-212.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:30:46 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:31:27 weirdo pasted "help guise sbcl-build fail" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89849 18:32:15 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-69.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:29 that's when running make.sh 18:32:30 guise? 18:32:48 "guise"? 18:33:11 weirdo: go further back for the actual error message 18:33:38 You, ah, -do- realize that the fragment pasted is from the compilation summary, and that the actual error occurred earlier, right? 18:33:55 did you do ./clean.sh ? 18:34:07 nyef, hold on, i'll run it with tee(1) 18:34:12 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:35:00 weirdo: Grab from when it starts compiling src/code/unix. 18:35:12 and try to do ./clean.sh beforehand 18:35:20 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:35:21 okay. since i'm restarting make.sh it's doing cold right nao 18:35:26 stassats, done that 18:37:09 milan [n=milan@77.46.219.50] has joined #lisp 18:38:39 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:35 -!- Regenaxer [n=baldur@pd9568a7a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 18:39:39 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 18:41:58 it worked after clean.sh 18:42:00 thanks guise 18:42:45 Do you mean "guys" (males or people) instead of "guise" (appearance)? 18:44:24 yes. spent too much time on chans, i presume 18:44:51 hi guise 18:44:58 moar chantalk 18:45:03 lurk moar 18:45:04 :D 18:45:24 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:45:26 MORE CODE 18:45:39 talk is cheap 18:45:46 it's tiem for CL-NNTP for graet justice! 18:46:01 and loli. 18:47:39 -!- milanj- [n=milan@91.150.101.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:49:20 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:49:45 I'm 12 ahd what is this 18:49:52 joking 18:50:11 minion: chant 18:50:12 MORE CODE 18:50:58 salva [n=kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:31 "moar coad plz, hold the yourdon"? 18:57:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-b5c1f8c0cc287dd4] has joined #lisp 18:57:24 bye again 18:57:29 -!- serichsen [n=user@xdsl-213-168-121-184.netcologne.de] has quit ["ugh"] 18:57:53 hi, somebody knows the url for the madnificent blog about clayworks, thanks 18:59:24 So where should I export TYPEXPAND from? At the moment it's SB-KERNEL because that contained (and uses) such a function already. 18:59:40 salva: http://factory.homelinux.org 19:00:05 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:22 thanks madnificent 19:00:32 yw 19:01:07 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-37.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:03:38 now, in the current context I can't but wonder whether 'salva' is a pun :-) (sorry salva, there's a guy by name 'slava', no offence intended) 19:04:58 What lisp is good for windows these days? 19:05:16 clozure common lisp? 19:05:24 fefefefe, do you need embedding? 19:05:54 also, do you need threads? 19:06:15 deepfire: No. Not at all. See my Lisa here just asked me to teach her all about programming. And she is on windows, and well.. makes sense 19:06:24 SBCL is fastest, but no threads on win32 19:06:25 I need HELLO WORLD ;) 19:06:30 You named your cat Lisa? 19:06:32 nice 19:06:38 ziga`, awww 19:06:41 :) 19:06:48 ziga`: We named the cats "katten" och "nasse". snake we named "bella" :P 19:06:51 deepfire: he's online with that nickname most of the time. I don't think he is (or knows) slava though. 19:07:15 fefefefe: which country? 19:07:16 Well maybe something other than lisp is good to go with. 19:07:22 ziga`: skåne 19:07:34 fefefefe: ?? 19:07:35 :D 19:08:24 gz__ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:24 fefefefe, overall, I think, SBCL has best support in open source libraries. But for hello world... 19:09:11 It also depends on whether you want work in slime. 19:09:36 SBCL work fine with slime on win32, but I don't know about CCL. 19:09:36 SBCL on Win32 gets very little love, unfortunately. 19:09:40 *_3b* would probably try ccl first on windows 19:10:03 fefefefe: southern sweden 19:10:18 *nyef* might even try ccl on windows one of these days. 19:10:28 -!- ejs [n=eugen@46-52-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:10:31 Yes, I know that's heresy. 19:10:51 For me CCL is nyaah because of its MOP problems. 19:10:57 Well what I really want to do is get her interested in programming. But I pretty much don't use anything but lisp and forth, and never windows.. dunno. maybe one of those C# or C++ is btter. But all the syntax.. seems harder on the mind 19:11:23 sweden, the country with the funny talk :D I would like to live there... 19:11:35 <_3b> you could also try javascript 19:11:40 fefefefe, set her up an SBCL+Slime+Emacs 19:11:54 ziga`: wHY? 19:11:55 fefefefe, there must be some starter packs for win32 19:12:01 oh capslock 19:12:06 Emacs is a bit much, what about ABLE a basic lisp editor 19:12:10 deepfire: Yeah. sounds like a plan. 19:12:27 what about plt scheme and a copy of sicp? 19:12:31 well I'll look around 19:12:40 stassats: I don't think she would enjoy sicp :) 19:12:58 there're video lectures 19:13:01 fefefefe: from what I know it's a very developed country, cold weather, nice culture, nice landscape 19:13:10 <_3b> for a new programmer, i'd probably look for something where you can break out of inifinite loops without killing the lisp, which as far as i know sbcl/win32+slime can't do 19:13:12 fefefefe, http://www.weitz.de/starter-pack/, for example 19:13:30 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:13:38 Not SBCL, but supposed to be least effort/least surprises. 19:13:51 _3b: Indeed, it can't, but it's getting better! 19:14:04 ziga`: Dunno about the nice culture. It is getting quite nice now that it has developed the last 10 years or so. 19:14:07 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:22 (Actually, I could probably arrange for C-c to do -something- reasonable fairly simply.) 19:15:04 _3b, ouch, I forgot about it. 19:15:56 fefefefe: I'm from Slovenia, for us, Scandinavian countries are 'role-models', but achieving the development you did doesn't seem very likely here :D 19:16:45 Well thanks for the help. I'll see how this all works out. :) 19:16:59 ziga`: I see. Well I guess maybe it all is a matter of.. taste in culture. 19:17:06 ziga`, pretty hard to achieve development with 1. post-Tito debt, 2. NATO bombing the sh*t out of your country. 19:17:19 Haplo_ [n=hatchond@cau33-1-82-66-14-55.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:28 how is that related to lisp? 19:17:44 deepfire: lol that mush have happened somewhere to the south.. but the rest is true 19:17:47 LOL 19:18:04 -!- gz__ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:18:36 it's a hard subject for the russians 19:18:42 please be gentle, candy-coat 19:19:16 gz__ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:30 amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:19:58 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:20:39 -!- gz__ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:08 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Success] 19:22:19 and you are lynching negroes! 19:22:44 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:23:50 Watch out, you'll make stassats angry! Uhm. 19:23:59 mikl0 [n=mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:54 ziga: You just need the right myths and enough time to forget that they are myths -- civilization is all about believing in fairy tales. 19:26:00 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-13-22.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:26:02 deepfire, you probably talk about Serbia, thats where I'm from 19:26:05 and enough generations that haven't had to fight in a war, economy that hasn't been destroyed 19:27:31 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.28] has joined #lisp 19:28:20 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:28:21 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-37.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:28:30 -!- amaron_ is now known as amaron 19:28:54 amaron_, I'm speaking of Yugoslavia. 19:29:32 deepfire, Slovenia went out first, they are ok, we are not :) 19:29:39 Intertricity [i=Intertri@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:26 Are there any Lisp meetings in the area? 19:31:30 -!- jleija_ [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:31:34 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.212.86] has joined #lisp 19:31:45 How do you switch from the bottom frame to the top frame without using the mouse? http://privatepaste.com/530vVeQRka 19:31:51 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.212.86] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:32:07 C-x o 19:32:10 thanks :D 19:32:52 -!- mikl0 [n=mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:28 Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 19:34:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:35:10 Intertricity: Sounds like you should work through the Emacs tutorial (C-h t) 19:35:22 20minutes well worth spending 19:35:25 Yeah it's just a little intimidating, but I should :P 19:35:31 I just wanted to get started lisp hacking real quick 19:35:58 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:36:41 emacs is a bitch, and then you die 19:37:57 I thought Emacs was a cross-dressing weight lifter with a lisp 19:38:31 Hi all - question about class slots - Is it possible to refer to another slot in an :initform? i.e. http://codepad.org/AInO1Qw1 19:38:34 gz__ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:03 Shamwow: no. you can use initialize-instance for that kind of thing. 19:39:46 Xach: thanks. When is initform used for initialization? Is it only to provide default values? 19:40:06 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:40:12 Shamwow: That's a good use of it, sure. 19:40:23 Xach: alright, thanks! 19:40:23 :default-initargs is another option, too. 19:40:26 shanmuha [n=shanmuha@188-220-218-160.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:40:57 -!- shanmuha [n=shanmuha@188-220-218-160.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 19:40:57 so why have an initform if not for initialization or default args? 19:41:46 Shamwow: I can't think of other useful reasons to provide an initform, but I don't think I have an exhaustive imagination on the topic. 19:42:10 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-37.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:42:26 Ask on stack overflow, maybe Rainer Joswig will have some ideas. 19:42:39 I've seen them used for (error "...") messages to make sure initargs are provided, and for default values... but I haven't looked at much code 19:43:00 stackoverflow - good idea! 19:43:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 19:43:33 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.212.86] has joined #lisp 19:43:56 *Xach* just today left two slots un-initialized and lazily initialized them with slot-unbound methods 19:44:05 -!- Intertricity [i=Intertri@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:44:29 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 19:44:38 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has joined #lisp 19:45:08 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.51.212] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:45:48 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:45:49 Shamwow: also, when in rome, try using paste.lisp.org instead 19:47:13 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.211.172] has joined #lisp 19:48:24 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:06 It'd be nice to have missing slots dynamically bound in an :around method on PRINT-OBJECT, perhaps using some of the Pascal Costanza's stuff :-) 19:53:38 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:56 hm? Just check slot-boundp in your print-object method 19:54:28 tcr, you clearly didn't do that enough to become annoyed.. 19:55:28 Xach: ah... yes. I did note that codepad didn't have a lisp checkbox :) 19:55:38 deepfire: Nah, I just use defstruct :) 19:57:14 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:23 ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-51-212.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:09 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:04:02 -!- fawxtin` [n=user@litio.certi.org.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:04:15 fawxtin` [n=user@150.162.165.254] has joined #lisp 20:04:21 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:04:50 here's a new growing pain: the function foo takes 3 arguments. I have a list of the three arguments '(a b c), but foo has the syntax of (foo 'a 'b 'c), it doesn't take a list. How do I feed those args to foo without (car '(a b c)), (cadr '(a b c)), etc? 20:06:26 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:06:30 (apply #'foo list) 20:06:50 clhs apply 20:06:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 20:07:10 ayrnieu: excellent! thanks! 20:07:40 Shamwow: here's something about APPLY I didn't realize at first 20:08:18 Shamwow: You can have individual arguments preceding the list at the end. So if the function took five arguments, you could use: (apply #'foo 42 -1 list) 20:08:56 Xach: And apply will just take all the arguments you feed it into a single list! 20:08:59 that's great 20:09:03 Shamwow: that's helpful when passing a list of keyords and arguments, because you can stick an overrriding argument in front (the leftmost keyword argument is used): (apply #'open :if-exists :error args) for example 20:09:44 I was just thinking to myself "there has to be a really simple way to do this in lisp..." Turns out there is 20:10:27 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D753.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:42 Xach: does apply work as (apply #'foo list arg4 arg5) as well? 20:10:53 no 20:11:03 ah... 20:11:36 it works like LIST* 20:11:54 like nutella, it takes a "spreadable argument list designator" 20:15:18 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.211.172] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:17:21 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9423.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:11 tcr: do you use a specific color-theme in your emacs screenshots, or is that a fontlock you cooked yourself? 20:18:20 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:30 good afternoon 20:19:12 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.212.86] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:20:40 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.211.172] has joined #lisp 20:21:19 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.211.172] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:22:29 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:15 -!- guaqua_ is now known as guaqua 20:24:26 Intertricity [i=Intertri@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:43 Xach, I just realized your name is at the top of the Practical Common Lisp tutorial :P 20:25:20 Intertricity: it's on the cover of the Practical Common Lisp book, also. 20:25:32 Xach, haha nice :D 20:25:57 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B425.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:21 Fade: It's a slightly adapted version of color-theme-hober2 20:27:20 Fade: I don't think that comes with the default distribution (the earlier version c-t-hober does) 20:28:14 Just got a neat link http://code.google.com/intl/es-ES/apis/protocolbuffers/docs/overview.html 20:28:21 Google's planning a generic serialization library 20:28:24 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-64-173.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:28:49 tcr: thanks. I'll google for hober2 20:28:50 Intertricity: that's pretty old news, and not really topical. 20:29:04 Was hoping maybe there'd ba lisp binding 20:29:07 *be a 20:29:57 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.21.49] has joined #lisp 20:30:44 Hmm, I vaguely remember something like that. 20:31:28 Yes, from n. dantam of georgia tech 20:31:32 http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~ndantam3/git/s-protobuf.git 20:31:47 8D 20:31:49 *happy* 20:32:40 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.232] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 20:34:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:50 http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~ndantam3/docs/s-protobuf/ also 20:36:22 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:36:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:36:33 hmm, he got my name right there, but spelled it wrong in the git commit message. oh well. 20:36:41 -!- looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:41 -!- nickcave [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:59 -!- fefefefe [i=53e35f0f@gateway/web/freenode/x-5b9e1097b0855002] has quit ["Page closed"] 20:41:20 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-134-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 20:41:24 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:35 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.28] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:07 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:01 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:47:09 rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:37 nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:47:45 yay 20:47:51 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:53 Intertricity: It looks like a really bad version of ASN.1 20:48:04 rahul, ASN? 20:48:09 it's basically JSER - javascript encoding rules 20:48:19 xach: sorry about the name misspelling... 20:48:19 Intertricity: the standard for these kinds of things 20:48:27 ahh 20:48:30 Intertricity: it's what Kerberos, LDAP, SNMP, etc use 20:48:34 ntd, hey :D 20:48:52 billitch [n=billitch@p5DDBA1DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:31 Intertricity: hello 20:49:38 and ASN,1 can be encoded to optimize parsing speed or size 20:49:42 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:49:47 or pessimize both with XER 20:50:34 rahul: i think the major complaint with asn.1 is complexity 20:50:50 rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:52 ie, OSI/X.500 vs. ldap 20:51:37 huh? 20:51:53 ntd: asn.1 is as complex as their solution 20:51:57 they=google 20:52:33 how will you come up with something that's simpler and as efficient, flexible, and yet formal 20:52:44 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:13 ntd: and how does the complexity of X.500 make ASN.1 bad? 20:54:14 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 20:54:19 rahul: eh, i guess maybe it was just easier for me to understand protobuf from google's docs than to understand asn.1. 20:54:28 that's like saying that Lisp has 100 pages of specification so sexpressions are bad 20:54:38 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:54:39 rahul: complex things are hard to implement and prone to bugs 20:54:42 ntd: you don't need to understand asn.1 20:54:53 ntd: asn.1 is exceedingly simple, actually 20:54:58 it's less complex than CLOS. 20:55:01 ... or that office openxml has 6000 pages of specification, so it must be bad. oh, wait.... 20:55:24 rahul: since there's no lisp implementation of asn.1 (AFAIK), i'd need to understand it to implement one 20:55:26 rwiker: well, no, you'd imply that formatted text must be bad from that 20:55:41 ntd: I'm not sure how you'd be able to not find a lisp implementation of it 20:55:47 other than not looking :) 20:56:10 I don't think it's 100%, but it's enough for LDAP and SNMP 20:56:17 doesn't trivial-ldap include a (partial) asn.1 implementation? 20:56:19 ntd: incorrect -- cl-snmp has one. 20:56:19 *ntd* sees it now... 20:56:35 and a mib compiler, too. 20:56:45 there's also a free online book i've been meaning to read. 20:57:33 http://www.oss.com/asn1/dubuisson.html 20:57:35 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-48-133.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:40 ntd: and how can you say the thing that is shared between LDAP and X.500 is the thing that makes X.500 complex? 20:57:47 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:57:56 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 20:58:24 rahul: I don't think it takes much imagination to come up with some reasons. 20:58:41 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:06 *ntd* is not currently interested in arguing for the (seemingly self evident) merits of simplicity 20:59:25 ntd: simplicity is not a goal in and of itself 20:59:35 ntd: I don't think that's the argument. 20:59:43 ntd: as KMP says, don't use one bit where 2 are needed 20:59:54 simplicity *is* a goal in itself. 21:00:11 it might not outweigh other goals, but it certainly is a goal in every system. 21:00:34 foom: well, sure, but then you end up with complexity via layers as a result, and if simplicity is the goal, then the layers will be pure cruft 21:00:38 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-10-74.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:01:01 ?? 21:01:04 it's not the overriding goal of a well-designed system is what I mean 21:01:17 whatever, this is not an interesting discussion. :P 21:01:25 forth is simple, but a web browser written in forth would be unbearably complex 21:01:47 I think one of the arguments in "worse is better" is tht you can have simple interfaces to a complex implementation 21:01:59 for better discussion on complexity of systems, i recommend Perrow's "Normal Accidents", Raymond's "The Art of Unix Programming", and Gabriel's "Worse is Better" 21:02:01 ntd: how can ASN.1 be what makes X.500 more complex than LDAP if LDAP uses ASN.1? 21:02:08 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:10 they've said it better than I could 21:02:16 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:02:35 ntd: the goal of "simplicity" is what created XML as an alternative to ASN.1 21:02:39 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-48-133.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:03:01 I don't think that was it 21:03:10 XML was created as a simple alternative to SGML. 21:03:24 It's still abhorrently complex, however. 21:03:41 foom: well, people USE XML as an alternative to ASN.1 21:03:50 people rarely use it for hypertext 21:04:04 you might say that xml is a complex interface to a simple implementation 21:04:12 rwiker: right :) 21:04:12 XML implementations are complex 21:04:19 XML also has a complex interface 21:04:19 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-48-133.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:23 everything about it is complex 21:04:40 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.106.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:42 or a simple idea 21:04:56 rahul: SGML wasn't for hypertext 21:05:14 foom: in the general idea of semantic markup for text, it is 21:05:16 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:05:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:05:23 nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.106.39] has joined #lisp 21:05:27 "hyper" doesn't need to mean links IMO 21:05:35 okay, then sure. :) 21:05:36 links are just one kind of semantic markup 21:06:15 XML is a great improvement to SGML for that kind of thing. but it's not an improvement over ASN.1 for encoding data for the wire. 21:06:57 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Operation timed out] 21:07:01 did you know that ]> 21:07:01 21:07:01 is not equivalent to 21:07:30 and, i'm guessing, not ? 21:07:36 er, right 21:07:36 err, with a semi 21:07:42 sorry, typo. 21:07:44 I just discovered that last week, when the new version of libxml2 changed to do the "correct" thing in the latest version. 21:07:57 foom: equivalent how, specifically? 21:08:09 I was suspicious about entities in XML 21:08:15 people hardly ever use them 21:08:17 rahul: the "a" attribute has a newline character in them 21:08:21 rahul: er, in it 21:08:42 foom: er, then what does it have? 21:08:48 now, according to the latest libxml2, (and what the XML standard has always said), it's the same as 21:09:00 *rahul* blinks 21:09:11 which one is equivalent to that? 21:09:19 21:09:30 that would be the opposite of what I'd expect. 21:09:31 does this have anything to do with general whitespace handling in xml? 21:10:12 See XML spec section 3.3.3 item 3. 21:10:39 whitespace handling is another reason for XML being a bad alternative to ASN.1 21:11:13 literal whitespace inside attribute values is normalized to spaces...and so is whitespace deriving from entity references. 21:11:21 but *not* whitespace deriving from character references! 21:11:33 Xach: i can fix your name in the commit message, but doing that makes git very unhappy (seems to break distributed repos). What do you think? 21:12:03 even if the entity references a character :\ 21:12:06 how foolish 21:12:10 -!- Intertricity [i=Intertri@c-66-176-186-87.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:12:17 looks like a good reason to avoid character entities, then 21:12:26 <_3b> is 1d+-0 supposed to read as NaN in CCL? 21:12:32 ntd: No need. 21:12:41 rwiker: I think you're not going far enough with that 21:12:45 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 21:13:17 _3b: it can read as whatever it wants to, no? 21:13:23 _3b: it's a potential number 21:13:28 or is it? 21:13:39 hey, I'm happy that I can (finally) use Common Lisp for work purposes.... am not going to insist on avoidiung XML as well :-) 21:13:41 <_3b> rahul: ccl (and a few others i think) have syntax like that for Nan, Inf 21:13:51 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:14:09 rwiker: use ASN.1 with XER 21:14:21 at least then you'll be doing something sensible internally :) 21:14:30 <_3b> 1d++0 for inf, -1d++0 for -inf, 1d+-0 for nan... but 1d+-0 prints as 1d++0, which seems odd 21:14:31 doesn't work if you're interfacing withg other systems... 21:14:38 rwiker: XML doesn't? 21:15:04 _3b: heh, oops :) 21:15:13 no, using asn.1 to interface with systems that only speaks xml... does not work 21:15:26 rwiker: hence XER 21:15:29 we've been using Fast Infoset, x.891. 21:15:33 asn.1 is XML friendly 21:16:05 I don't know that I'd reall recommend it, since AFAIK, the only free library that exists that implements it is in Java. 21:16:23 foom: it's just a subset of ASN.1, no? 21:16:32 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-68-45.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:33 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 21:16:33 *_3b* is using an old version though, maybe i should update... 21:16:45 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-54-192.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:17:07 rahul: It's a mapping of XML's "Infoset" to ASN.1 serialization. 21:17:08 so, what is XER, then? an asn.1 wrapper over xml-based communication? 21:17:11 heh 21:17:41 foom: Oh, ok 21:17:48 rwiker: XML Encoding Rules 21:17:53 the guy who seems to be the current google protobufs lead responded to a comment about asn.1 on their blog with "sorry, i am not very familiar with asn.1 der. it seems more complicated than protocol buffers." 21:18:01 rwiker: do you know about DER and BER? 21:18:22 Xach: oh, NIH 21:18:48 well, no one ever accused google of being interested in leveraging existing technology :) 21:19:09 they're great a writing their own in-house versions of lots of things 21:19:21 kind of like two other companies I know :) 21:19:22 Android being a wonderful example of that. 21:19:44 They rewrote the entire software stack of Linux, except the kernel 21:20:16 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:34 BTW, just in case things weren't confusing enough already... 21:20:36 I think they tend to write everything but the kernel for all of their software 21:20:45 W3 is creating and standardizing a brand new Binary XML format 21:20:53 heh 21:21:01 *rahul* facepalm 21:21:01 (and, man, am I the only one who finds their new website impossible to find anything on?) 21:21:23 they might as well call it color forth at this point 21:21:25 foom: finding stuff on W3's site used to be one of my "talents" 21:21:32 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:00 rahul: well, so much for that! 21:22:05 foom: but lately, it's gotten too confusing or at least changed to the point where I can't figure that out 21:22:30 http://www.w3.org/XML/EXI/ 21:22:30 it's ok. they rarely write any standards worth following 21:22:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-59.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:22:37 indeed 21:22:51 binary XML could actually be useful if it did anything 21:22:58 and when people do follow their standards, it's not like they read the standard to know what they're following 21:23:02 rwiker_ [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:08 Krystof [n=csr21@82-35-80-105.cable.ubr03.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:23:10 that's not their fault. :P 21:23:11 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:19 rares: it could be as useful as ASN.1 :) 21:23:21 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-53-85.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:29 they still think the web is for documents only 21:23:36 foom: if anyone could find the standards, at least there would be a chance of people following them 21:23:42 why is ASN.1 even a standard? 21:23:55 that's like making true and false a standard 21:23:56 uh, because people need to communicate 21:24:04 *rahul* boggles 21:24:09 but it's so obvious 21:24:15 rares: no, it's like making common lisp a standard 21:24:23 hmmm... got disconnected... meanwhile, I've been looking at XER, and cannot really see any use (for me, at least) for it 21:24:23 rares: I found it boggling that you would argue with yourself (: 21:24:50 rares: ok, I'll use 1 for true and 0 for false 21:24:51 if you have a hierarchial concept to communicate you need names and delimiters 21:25:02 rares: you use 0 for true and -1 for false 21:25:05 let's see how far we get 21:25:06 evening 21:25:12 hi Krystof 21:25:16 good evening Krystof 21:25:27 what's new and exciting? 21:25:43 foom: seems like they've been trying to make binary xml go now for *years* 21:25:47 Krystof: ASN.1 is obvious and shouldn't have been written down 21:25:48 ISO/IEC 8825-4:2003 (E) (apparently :-) 21:25:49 Other than me coming up with a pcl patch this morning that I no longer understand this evening 21:25:51 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.106.39] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:25:55 new XML Binary Standard gives you wings 21:26:12 Krystof: there is a lisp meeting in berlin on december first 21:26:27 Krystof: need to upgrade your brain to pin neurons properly 21:26:44 rares: -1 for false and 0 for true seems more useful (: 21:26:57 rahul even. 21:27:04 nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.106.39] has joined #lisp 21:27:15 pkhuong: 0 21:27:20 i prefer nil = false 21:27:30 erh, -1 for true and 0 for false... I can't think straight tonight. 21:27:50 looks like there is a need for a committee to create a standard for the mapping of true and false to integers... 21:28:18 and to decide between metric booleans and imperial ones 21:28:27 long time no see, rwiker_ 21:28:43 pkhuong: great, you use that 21:28:48 now let's all communicate :P 21:28:50 i've been looking for lispers in c.l.l. :-) 21:29:17 the imperial booleans sounds like a good band name 21:29:22 -!- pon][ [n=pon][@h202n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 21:29:47 pompous music that's pure sine waves. 21:30:11 anyone who can make that work is a genius in my book :P 21:30:12 ASN.1 is even simpler than true and false: . means preceding contains following 21:33:41 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-10-74.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:44 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:34:50 Hmmm, every time I join #lisp, I tend to write #lips. I keep telling myself that it's a timing issue between my left and right hands... 21:35:01 But maybe I'm just sexually frustrated 21:35:23 -!- rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:28 rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:34 Can a defgeneric take &optional args? 21:36:09 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 21:36:34 -!- nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.106.39] has quit [Operation timed out] 21:36:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:37:34 -!- rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:38:34 yes 21:38:34 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:07 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-166.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:44 Shamwow: however, you can't specialize on them 21:41:34 rahul: I'm having trouble with getting (defgeneric foo (obj &optional arg)) to compile 21:41:56 Is there a special synatax for it? 21:42:08 And, if one can't specialize a generic function, what's the use of it? 21:42:44 To provide an optional parameter that's shared between all methods? 21:42:49 Shamwow: you can't specialize on the class(es) of the optional arg(s) the way you can specialize on the class(es) of the required arg(s) 21:43:28 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:43:45 Shamwow: on the optional args, not the required ones 21:44:08 Shamwow: because if it's missing, then how do you specialize on it? 21:44:32 Shamwow: it compiles fine 21:45:59 formulate 0.1.1 released 21:46:07 shamwow: You might find that using a non-generic function that normalizes optionals, keywords, etc out, then calls the generic function is what you want. 21:46:10 0.1 had a typo :P 21:47:45 hmm 21:48:17 what's a reasonable naming convention for a package that exports the symbols useful for a user of a library vs. the symbols useful for an extender of a library? 21:48:28 effectively CLOS vs MOP 21:49:15 fe[nl]ix: hey, going to sbcl10? 21:49:21 no 21:49:30 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:39 -!- rwiker_ [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:45 rahul: foo and foo-using-class 21:50:17 Krystof: He's talking about naming packages 21:50:47 not symbols 21:50:55 rahul: thanks, I misunderstood originally - only required arguments can be specialized... 21:51:00 Krystof: I have somehting like CLOS and something like MOP 21:51:13 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:51:15 Zhivago: I was considering it, but still having trouble with the login I'm trying to set up. Thanks 21:51:35 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:51:36 in terms of their relationship... I want a naming convention for the packages one would :use in order to interact with my library in those kinds of ways 21:51:48 is there a reason they can't be the same package? 21:52:11 (there's no particular reason the mop symbols aren't exported from CL other than not being ready in time) 21:52:12 Shamwow: right. &rest and &key are also allowed but work the same way 21:52:34 Krystof: because it seems sensible not to pull in the universe when one only wants a galaxy 21:52:47 rahul: thanks! 21:53:00 X-Scale` [i=email@89-180-189-41.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 21:53:01 well, these days I tend to recommend against :use at all 21:53:07 hmm 21:53:48 Krystof: well either way... I think it would be nice to not see all the internal cruft when one simply wants to make use of my library 21:54:25 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.189.41] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:54:27 you know, like formulator-invalidate is only useful if you're trying to implement your own formulator 21:54:28 -!- X-Scale` is now known as TR2N 21:54:32 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-64-173.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:54:33 I'd go with separate packages as well because I document on per-package basis 21:54:48 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:55:05 In fact, I write my documentation in the package's docstring :) 21:55:06 formulator-class is used for slot options and variable declarations 21:55:15 demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-85-28-112.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 21:58:00 rahul: oh, well, if it's cruft... 21:58:44 it's cruft to someone who doesn't want it... 21:59:29 demmeln1 [n=Adium@p5B0C3FD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:51 maybe formulator.meta 22:00:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:35 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-b5c1f8c0cc287dd4] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:01:46 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:01:48 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-51-212.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:43 -!- gz__ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:05:15 -!- acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c34d559f3f25ba07] has joined #lisp 22:07:21 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:09:19 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:09:34 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2997.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:57 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:11:03 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:11:41 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 22:12:44 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:12:53 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:13:44 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 22:13:47 acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:07 davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:35 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Operation timed out] 22:14:58 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:15:04 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:06 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:20 -!- milan [n=milan@77.46.219.50] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:20:11 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:20:38 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:21:09 FullMetalHarlot [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:23 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp111.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:33 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:23:42 -!- FullMetalHarlot is now known as KatrinaTheLamia 22:24:13 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:24:34 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-85-28-112.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:24:35 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:24:59 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 22:26:24 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-48-133.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:27:39 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-179.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:52 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.55.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:31 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:31:33 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:12 ericjames [n=ericjeld@166.132.47.155] has joined #lisp 22:36:43 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 22:38:04 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:35 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:41:07 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:42:33 Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.162.190] has joined #lisp 22:43:09 Hi! how do I split a string into substrings by spaces? 22:44:19 michaelw: tell Pete_R about split-sequence 22:44:28 minion: tell Pete_R about split-sequence 22:44:29 Pete_R: look at split-sequence: SPLIT-SEQUENCE (formerly known as PARTITION) is a member of the Common Lisp Utilities family of programs, designed by community consensus. http://www.cliki.net/split-sequence 22:44:37 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:55 Or write a small function using FIND and SUBSEQ 22:45:31 sg [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-4ae916aa301a7132] has joined #lisp 22:45:36 hi 22:45:41 I think I'll go with the billstclair approach :) 22:45:44 I think you mean POSITION and SUBSEQ, and that's exactly what split-sequence does 22:45:56 tcr: right. thanks 22:45:59 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:46:30 -!- demmeln1 [n=Adium@p5B0C3FD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:46:37 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 22:47:03 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:06 You could do it for fun, but then still take that split-sequence function 22:47:10 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:47:24 :) 22:47:37 ok, how do I install the package? 22:47:51 What implementation do you use? 22:47:56 sbcl 22:48:20 best is if you just use clbuild which you can use to download and install libraries for you 22:48:24 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:27 -!- Haplo_ [n=hatchond@cau33-1-82-66-14-55.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:48:28 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179161249.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:48:46 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:48:51 and how do I do that? 22:49:05 minion: clbuild 22:49:05 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 22:49:28 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:57 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:01 -!- tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:51:18 one question, can i (in common lisp) create an environment and put a name to it? 22:51:24 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:51:30 or the closest thing would be packages? 22:52:24 nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:52:47 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 22:53:46 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-13-22.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 22:53:46 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:30 rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:55:51 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@166.132.47.155] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:14 saikatc [n=saikatc@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 22:58:03 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-199-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:41 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:41 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:01:39 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:24 Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:09:05 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-199-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:09:17 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@173.12.30.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:10:25 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:42 *Krystof* wrestles PCL into submission 23:14:21 -!- billitch [n=billitch@p5DDBA1DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:16:39 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:16:48 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:18:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:18:42 -!- davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:21:16 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:27 redblue [i=star@ppp093.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:24:53 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:41 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:31:48 In the dollar bookshelf at the grocery store there was a paperback "dictionary of computer terms" from the early 1980s 23:32:01 sg: What does 'environment' mean here? 23:32:07 Xach: ah, those are the most fun :) 23:32:18 under "LISP" it had a reasonable description of lisp being about manipulating lists but supporting many data types, recursion, symbolic manipulation, etc 23:32:26 and closed with "Considered difficult to learn." 23:32:42 I especially love some of the *old* terms in polish... we had rather blunt and direct translation of "interface" :> 23:33:35 (there was also volume 15 of an 1857 history of the french consulate...odd seeing a 150-year-old book next to "Diet Guidelines for Diabetics") 23:33:52 haha 23:35:50 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:28 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-84.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 23:37:07 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:37:44 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@82-35-80-105.cable.ubr03.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:06 another puzzle for y'alls - I've defined a macro that generates a generic slot-value-getter (returns the value of a slot) and could expand into something like: (slot-value-getter id) ==> (defgeneric id (obj) (:documentation "foo")) 23:38:59 I was hoping to feed it a list of slot names to have all the generic function defs automagically generated with something akin to (mapcar #'slot-value-getter '((id name location))) 23:39:04 but... mapcar does not work 23:39:06 with macros 23:39:16 any standard ways of going about doing this? 23:39:42 hmm... can I manipulate with a code walker *when* do I want for macroexpansion to occur? I'd like to do some manipulation on the code before macroexpansion while keeping CL's macro system 23:43:11 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:20 ericjames [n=ericjeld@166.132.162.25] has joined #lisp 23:43:22 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D753.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:43:53 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 23:45:12 billitch [n=billitch@82.113.106.96] has joined #lisp 23:47:27 p_l: basically, the macros get their arguments _before_ macro expansion. 23:47:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c34d559f3f25ba07] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:48:36 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-13-22.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:48 p_l: can you give a more concrete example? "some manipulation" is hard to wrap my mind around. 23:49:40 (defmacro show (expression) `(progn (print ',expression) ,expression)) 23:50:10 This macro manipulate the form expression, producing a new form containing it twice. 23:50:29 (defmacro show (expression) (if (equal expression 'newline) `(terpri) `(progn (print ',expression) ,expression))) 23:50:37 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-125-163.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:50:38 This one does more manipulation... 23:50:45 Jabberwock [n=jens@port-9408.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 23:51:03 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9423.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:27 lispbeginner [n=lispbegi@62.139.82.199] has joined #lisp 23:51:31 hi 23:51:45 hi 23:52:01 rpg: (First, I admit that I'm newb at this) - I'm trying to build something like parenscript, and various forms used in the DSL would be probably defined as macros. However, I'd like to manipulate the code before some of them are run. But I guess pjb's initial explanation is good enough, I just need to remember evaluation rules ^^; 23:52:31 do you know where can I find the solution manual for the "common Lisp an interactive approach" exersices 23:53:19 p_l: I see. Indeed, with some DSL, it's perfectly valid to be wanting to process the language outside of the macros or normal lisp eval. You can just implement a my-dls:load or my-dsl:compile-file function. 23:53:39 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Operation timed out] 23:53:41 pjb's example shows manipulation of the code in the course of macro-expansion. I'm going to guess that what you want is something like "cache something about the code /now/ and manipulate it just before execution. 23:53:50 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:54:05 p_l: is that what you want to do? 23:54:17 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 23:54:53 my-dls:load or my-dsl:compile-file might be better than macros if you want to keep state between toplevel expressions of your DSL. 23:55:30 pjb: eval-when works fine for that, too 23:55:33 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-84.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 23:55:34 pjb: That would also make it simpler to use a special readtable, if that was desired... 23:55:41 so guys, do any of you know about that? 23:55:58 lispbeginner: 'fraid not. 23:56:06 whose book is that? 23:56:45 Shamwow: why would you do that? 23:57:01 Shamwow: you're not gaining much of anything at all... you still need to define the methods 23:57:31 rpg, it's Shapiro's 23:58:09 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 23:58:09 lispbeginner: Wow. I have a vague memory of that book. It's ancient... 23:58:20 lol :) 23:58:26 rpg: yeah, I have DSL-level optimizations like inter-procedure stuff I want to do (where for example it might even happen for two procedures to get merged into one in actual binary) before it gets into actual code generation (which then goes through another wave of optimizations, but ones not done by me) 23:58:29 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.113.106.96] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:58:31 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:59:24 rahul: I have about 10 generic methods that all have the same form except the method name is changed. I'd like a macro that will take a list of those ten names and generate the (defgeneric ,name (.....)) calls for me 23:59:42 p_l: I would implement a specific compile-file like function. 23:59:45 rahul: so I don't have to take up 10 separate lines of defgeneric where I could just use one...