00:00:10 -!- udzinari is now known as nyquist 00:00:58 fe[nl]ix, without feedback, I can't satisfy your unspecified demands 00:04:20 *fatalnix1995* is back 00:05:20 Hrm. clweb is... a bit rough-seeming, though I perhaps don't have it set up correctly. 00:06:00 LiamH: Hey, I've just posted a rather large text to devel regarding multi-dimensional FFTs, array offsets, sizes, strides. Please read it at your convenience and let me know what you think. 00:06:25 Sikander: OK, I'm just about to go home and I'll read it there. 00:06:44 LiamH: Great. I'm off to bed. Catch you later 00:06:50 -!- spec[away] [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 00:07:03 Sikander: Ok, good night. 00:07:14 Fare, did you bring up the issue on the iolib's list? 00:07:33 Goodnight people 00:07:39 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to sleep..."] 00:10:33 I will 00:10:36 eventually 00:11:34 -!- m1z0b3 [n=Rodrigo@mail.ltia.fc.unesp.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:11:45 Guthur_ [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:58 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:12:34 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:12:59 -!- Guthur_ is now known as Guthur 00:14:35 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:18:29 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-110-245.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:19:27 is cl-facebook being maintained? 00:20:13 rahul - last modification: 22 Sep 2009 00:20:47 hi again, folks - I've written some code to try parsing through an xyz-file (coordinate file for molecular dynamics) that has a 2-line header (with the number of atoms) followed by num-atoms rows of data. I've never written a lisp class before, and I can't figure out how to (make-instance) one of these things... my code is up at http://codepad.org/TavmsOaB 00:21:14 rahul - http://common-lisp.net/websvn/rss.php?repname=cl-facebook&path=%2Ffacebook.lisp&rev=0&sc=0&isdir=0 ; it's a contributed patch after five months of inactivity. 00:21:19 I'd like to be able to (defvar xyz (make-instance 'xyz-file :filename "somename")) 00:21:23 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:22:36 so, what's the problem? 00:23:34 stassats: I keep getting an error such as: There is no class named XYZ-FILE 00:23:55 Shamwow - in the XYZ package? 00:24:14 ayrnieu: yes, I believe... 00:24:28 I'm not sure, to tell you the truth 00:24:28 what *package* says? 00:24:39 Shamwow - well, first try (make-instance 'xyz::xyz-file ...) 00:24:42 common-lisp-user 00:24:51 here's your problem 00:25:19 ayrnieu: The slot XYZ::FILENAME is unbound in the object #. 00:25:19 are you using slime? 00:25:26 stassats: yes 00:25:26 Shamwow - please read through http://flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 00:25:50 Shamwow: than you can sync packages with C-c ~ while in the buffer with that file 00:25:57 doh, s/than/then/ 00:27:27 Shamwow: you should've an after method for initialize-instance 00:27:54 stassats: what does that lead to? 00:28:03 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:28:17 http://paste.lisp.org/display/89757 00:28:17 to disappearance of your error above 00:29:00 xof or anyone sbcl guru .. it might be possible to make this shorter .. i'm not even sure everything is valid CL/MOP, though .. and my eyeballs have dried out 00:29:39 stassats: ah... I'll try it out. I'm still not following the difference between defpackage and make-package, or what exactly it means to 'sync' the packages 00:29:51 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:29:55 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:01 Shamwow: make the repl use the same package as the file 00:30:13 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:19 to make it a little less SBCL-mop specific the c-e-s-d can be replaced by a e-s-d-c that does the same thing .. the same problem occurs 00:30:33 stassats: and the package naming, if I (defpackage #:xyz) then should *package* be "xyz", ":xyz", or "#:xyz"? 00:30:42 minion, tell shamwow about packages 00:30:42 shamwow: please see packages: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html ; http://flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 00:31:03 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:31:06 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-206.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:31:06 Shamwow: *package* should be (find-package :xyz) but you shouldn't use it directly 00:31:17 use either in-package, or slime shortcuts 00:31:25 (in-package :xyz) ? 00:31:32 Okay, looks like either my installed copy of TeX is wierd or clweb isn't supplying the right escaping for things like underscores in comments and radix subscripts on numbers. 00:31:33 that'll work 00:31:56 stassats: thanks for the pointers 00:32:01 Shamwow: or #:xyz, or xyz, or 'xyz, or "XYZ" 00:32:16 doesn't make a difference, it seems... 00:32:21 (the last assuming an upcasing reader) 00:33:00 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:33:09 Shamwow: there are subtle differences, like #:xyz not interning any symbols 00:34:22 must I export my methods if I'm in the package where they are defined in order to use them? 00:34:39 you don't have to 00:34:56 but you will usually want to 00:36:33 I've moved into the xyz package, loaded up all the relevant methods with a C-c C-c (emacs-slime) and tried to (make-instance 'xyz::xyz-file :filename "beta-cristobalite-unitcell.xyz") 00:36:42 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.136.22] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:47 huh .. now it happens without any custom slot metaclasses also .. i'll update the paste 00:36:52 however I still get : The slot FILENAME is unbound in the object #. 00:37:08 well, you have to delete your previous primary method 00:37:16 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.136.22] has joined #lisp 00:37:43 C-c I #'initialize-instance find your method and delete it 00:38:53 (and change it to :after in your code, if you already didn't do this) 00:40:05 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_accba.htm is pretty bewildering. 00:40:30 stassats: once I'm reading the buffer of C-c I... what do I do to delete it? Erase the contents of the buffer and...? 00:40:50 see a red button [remove method] ? 00:41:28 hit an enter on it, or push with a middle mouse button 00:42:14 stassats: got it... removed all those methods 00:42:22 all...? 00:43:04 you should've removed only the one with your class xyz-file 00:43:04 there were a few [remove method] buttons... but none next to an initialize-method name 00:43:09 splittist [n=dmurray@125.214.249.195] has joined #lisp 00:43:11 morning 00:43:19 ok, restart your lisp 00:43:32 :) 00:44:29 Fare, ok, the problem was in the syntax of generated patches -- works for /usr/bin/patch, fails for /usr/lib/git/git-apply 00:45:49 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:47:21 oh 00:47:41 so you should use patch in this case, and/or re-generate a patch for git-apply 00:48:01 stassats: thanks so much for the help 00:48:08 It looks like it may be working out 00:51:03 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-206.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:54:13 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6BEBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:54:40 -!- Osaka [n=yuki@fl-71-3-73-204.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:56:24 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6BEBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:31 Fare, exactly what I'm doing now, about to send you patches 01:00:38 wait -- 01:00:59 if you're only changing the format of the patches, I'm not sure I'm interested 01:01:09 if you have *updated* patches, then yes I'm interested 01:01:21 reason being, not every has git, etc. 01:01:30 so a patch that applies to tarballs is good 01:01:57 and the user shouldn't have to figure the command to use for each package's VCS 01:02:45 presumably it's possible to make patches with patch that apply with git-apply 01:02:50 if you use the right arguments 01:03:10 er, s/with patch/with diff/ 01:03:50 Fare, the updated patches are good for both git-apply and patch, whereas currently three of them (closer, puri and usocket) work only with diff. 01:04:19 anyway... considering the barrage of maintainers who want centralized dependency files, I'm not pushing for adoption until after I implemented that feature 01:04:53 deepfire, if it works with both, then yes I'm interested 01:06:50 er, s/only with diff/only for patch/ 01:07:55 is that because they use darcs? 01:09:33 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-211.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:10:23 Fare, closer, presumably because of the unusual ../reference to the "old" file, puri because of a really unusual format. Usocket I'm sorry about, my problem. 01:10:42 *deepfire* doublechecks before sending 01:11:38 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:12:06 deepfire, thanks! 01:12:29 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:08 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-131-41.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:40 redblue [i=star@ppp235.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:14:11 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BD42.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:15:14 egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has joined #lisp 01:15:23 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:30 is CL mod equivalent to C %? 01:16:50 modulo ? reminder ? floor ? 01:17:13 C % isn't well-specified for negative values, is it? 01:17:21 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:17:45 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 01:18:25 Fare: I'm only passing positive values. 01:18:56 clhs mod 01:18:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_mod.htm 01:19:13 a simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice -_- 01:19:23 (for positive values) 01:19:37 Well, I don't have a 'c99 mod' 01:19:48 CLHS: mod performs the operation floor on number and divisor and returns the remainder of the floor operation. 01:19:54 then mod or rem will both do 01:19:58 or floor 01:20:24 'kay 01:22:30 i use mod when i need modulo, and rem when i need remainder, that's why it's descriptive 01:22:53 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:24:21 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:36 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6BEBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 01:25:23 Fare, upon closer examination, they required non-standard -p values. Sent the normalised ones.. 01:26:12 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:21 Ralith - based on my reading of C99, MOD is equivalent to % 01:27:42 cool 01:27:50 in retrospect, 'rem' is what I really wanted 01:27:58 deepfire, thanks! 01:27:58 or more 01:28:04 what the code I'm porting really wanted. 01:29:12 er, 01:29:17 Ralith - based on my reading of C99, REM is equivalent to % 01:29:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:30:07 yacin_ [n=yacin@c-76-17-80-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:29 C99: When integers are divided, the result of the / operator is the algebraic quotient with any fractional part discarded. Footnote: This is often called "truncation toward zero". 01:30:32 -!- yacin_ [n=yacin@c-76-17-80-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:30:49 ayrnieu: well then! 01:30:54 i.e., TRUNCATE ; FLOOR truncates towards negative infinity. 01:33:37 ericjames [n=ericjeld@166.133.121.32] has joined #lisp 01:33:58 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has left #lisp 01:36:47 Omg. Edi went in the same direction: hunchentoot.asd contains "(load (merge-pathnames "version.lisp" *load-pathname*))" 01:37:18 -!- space-cadet [n=jason@pool-74-100-23-18.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:37:31 aiee 01:39:15 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:40:16 And it's actually nothing fancy from my side. Just load-op of a system depending on hunchentoot. 01:40:57 *load-pathname* refers to a symlink, and of course there's no version.lisp there. Boom. 01:41:27 deepfire: my patch does something to version.lisp... 01:42:19 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:52 Ouch. The level of automation here is ridiculous, I didn't even notice I had hunchentoot patched for XCVB. 01:44:31 Fare, basically, I list your xcvbifier patch directory, correlate .diff names to modules, then update, patch and commit as new branch, for every known module. 01:45:32 deepfire: my patch should preserve the workiness of hunchentoot with ASDF. Otherwise it's a bug. 01:46:03 Fare, I think s/*load-pathname*/*load-truename*/ is very needed. 01:46:19 Fare, in hunchentoot.asd, that is. 01:51:53 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 01:53:19 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:53:33 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-228-154.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53:36 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:19 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:55:31 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:58:17 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:35 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@166.133.121.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:45 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:06:20 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-4-92.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:06:59 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-4-92.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:07:26 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-4-92.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:30 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:45 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4e17be180485ead2] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:10:00 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-179-232.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:42 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:13:22 -!- gaze_ [n=gaze@ResNet-36-138.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:14:38 um, cl-facebook needs trivial-https... which seems to be defunct 02:16:15 minion: tell rahul about drakma 02:16:16 rahul: please look at drakma: Drakma is a fully-featured Common Lisp web client library that knows how to handle HTTP/1.1 chunking, persistent connections, re-usable sockets, SSL, continuable uploads, cookies, and other things. http://www.cliki.net/drakma 02:16:26 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:16:34 I think that's the new standard HTTP "client" 02:16:48 *Xach* used it for google/twitter twiddling today 02:17:57 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:18:04 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-4-92.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:18:48 cl-facebook seems to have been neglected for long time 02:19:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:56 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 02:21:19 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:23:00 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 02:25:09 Adlai: well, that doesn't help me 02:26:04 hmmmm actually, it's just 3 function calls that it does 02:26:08 maybe I can port this! 02:26:16 *Adlai* is glad to have helped :) 02:26:46 heh 02:31:12 eh, debian has trivial-https :P 02:31:22 *rahul* takes the lazy way 02:32:24 which is porting? ;-) 02:32:46 *p_l* recalls Gentoo's experiments with c-l-c 02:33:24 -!- Tordek__ is now known as Tordek 02:37:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:59 clhs 9.7.4.3 02:37:59 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 9.7.4.3. 02:38:47 -!- Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:39:33 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:40:06 btw, regarding various ideas for LLVM-backed CL implementation... why not just microcode it and have LLVM transform it into native? There's special support for adding "virtual" opcodes 02:40:14 billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:09 p_l: how is that better than, say, python? 02:43:19 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:43:34 rahul: Python as in CL compiler, or as in certain snake-related language? 02:44:43 regarding possible pluses from LLVM - support for extra architectures, probably better low-level optimizations... But I'm not the one doing such project, so far I'm quite content with SBCL and CCL :) 02:44:54 I just noticed that it was again talked over 02:45:04 *p_l* was considering playing with LLVM but for ECL 02:45:13 p_l: less talk more code. 02:46:10 p_l: sbcl is already widely ported 02:46:26 wasn't there a point where it worked on more archs than clisp? 02:46:40 rahul: I just put my £0.01 into it ;-) 02:47:06 p_l: the pound is weakening. better put 3 pence in next time 02:47:25 as for platforms, right now the ones I care the most are taken care of by SBCL(linux) + CCL(win64) 02:47:40 though I was thinking of testing ECL on Android :) 02:47:48 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 sbcl doesn't work on ARM? 02:48:09 rahul: SBCL can't be loaded as a shared library 02:48:22 p_l: so? 02:48:24 p_l: I have CFFI LLVM bindings, but there are still a few bugs to work out. 02:48:26 and this is necessary for the target in this case 02:48:39 android can only run shared libs? 02:48:48 it doesn't allow executables? 02:48:56 rahul: no, but if you want the app to use Android interfaces you need to do the UI in Java 02:49:07 p_l: not an issue 02:49:09 at least big part of it 02:49:13 use a CL-Java bridge 02:49:31 rahul: and the app that starts has to be in Java - I can later load a native library into it 02:49:36 SBCL works on arm? 02:50:00 ayrnieu: they might have removed it years ago thinking it was an obsolete arch :) 02:50:02 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 02:50:14 not yet 02:50:20 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:30 rahul: I think someone here worked on porting to ARM some time ago 02:50:32 rahul: don't think python ever worked on arm. 02:50:40 yeah, looks like it 02:50:41 but AFAIK it wasn't ever finished 02:50:49 pkhuong: oh, I thought cmucl had an ARM port 02:50:53 nyef: wasn't it you who worked on ARM port? 02:51:01 p_l: the status of that port is probably very similar to that of the win32 one, for nigh-identical reasons. 02:51:25 pkhuong: one is an OS, the other is a CPU... 02:51:43 still, doesn't matter, since to use Android NDK (Native Dev. Kit) I have to contain native code into shared libs 02:51:44 I don't think anyone's asking for a port to wince 02:51:45 :) 02:51:54 rahul: me! me! :P 02:51:55 http://www.cons.org/cmucl/platforms.html doesn't say anything about ARM 02:51:56 rahul: and yet the thrust comes from the same person with the same finite resources in both contexts. 02:52:09 pkhuong: oh, that problem :) 02:52:27 p_l: a$king might be more effective. 02:52:52 ayrnieu: it doesn't say anything about s390 either 02:52:57 pkhuong: sure, when I'll have actual project requiring that. Right now it was in jest ;-) 02:53:50 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:53:54 although not having a mainframe or knowing anyone who uses one regularly, I can't tell you if cmucl ever actually worked on s390 or if it was the aborted beginnings of a port 02:54:03 *p_l* personally planned working on simple MMIX port for private project, with ETC somewhere in the range of 5y 02:54:09 I'll make you wince 02:54:18 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:32 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:54:52 hi, (lambda ...) = #'(lambda ...) = (function (lambda ...)) ? 02:55:09 yes 02:55:24 Where can I learn how to learn how to do ports like this? 02:55:27 the first is a macro which expands to the last 02:55:36 the second is a read macro which reads as the last 02:55:39 cataska - http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_lambda.htm 02:56:07 ayrnieu: take an OS course and a compilers course 02:56:08 ayrnieu: I guess reading code... nyef had notes on how ARM port began 02:56:22 and yes, compiler and OS course would be useful 02:56:24 (I have an ARM computer; I'll probably buy a plugcomputer soon; I'll eventually get another ARM laptop.) 02:56:40 as well as good knowledge of the ABI of the target system 02:57:07 p_l: a good OS or compilers course will teach you what you need to pick that up on the fly 02:57:16 OK: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt 02:57:25 rahul: that's why I've got both courses on my list (not this year, unfortunately...) 02:57:28 p_l: and knowing the ABI doesn't really help that much if you're making a compiler that doesn't need FFI 02:57:56 p_l: ok, the 3rd step is patience, then... but learning a little before the course might be fun 02:58:19 rahul: I already got crazy from reading CPU design books ... 02:58:23 nah, all you need is time 02:58:38 stassats: you're proposing brute force solution? ;P 02:58:43 rahul: there are mainframe emulators. For example HERCULE. You could "port" an implementation on 360 ;-) 02:58:51 pjb: no thanks :) 02:59:03 Hercules is fun :D 02:59:05 why recusive macro expand won't happen on lambda macro ? 02:59:16 p_l: you know a solution that requires no time? 02:59:21 cataska: because FUNCTION is a special form 02:59:48 stassats: no, but the "simplest" that requires only time is afaik brute force (or nagging others?) 02:59:55 cataska: it stops the normal evaluation rules and does something special 03:00:22 rahul: i see 03:00:51 so lambda is symbol either macro ? 03:01:12 cataska: lambda is a symbol. It names a macro, too. 03:01:33 cataska: a symbol can be used to name several things at the same time in lisp. 03:01:51 cataska - well, something else is happening in ((lambda (x) x) 1) ; this is what http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_lambda.htm describes 03:02:33 In the case of ((lambda (x) x) 1), lambda is a symbol. (no macroexpansion occurs, no evaluation on the first item of that list occurs). 03:02:43 the same is happening in FUNCTION 03:02:57 Yes. 03:03:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 03:03:54 a lambda expression is the "name" for an anonymous funciton 03:04:05 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:13 vng [n=vng@118.68.196.121] has joined #lisp 03:04:21 hello 03:04:30 hi 03:04:52 if the evaluator sees a function name in the beginning of an expression, it looks up the function and applies it to the result of evaluating the code that is in each of the argument locations 03:04:54 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:25 if the special form FUNCTION sees a function name, it looks up the function and returns the function object for that name 03:05:45 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:58 compile and coerce also 03:07:59 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-131-41.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:08:08 slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:08:23 -!- billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 03:08:58 compile and coerce are just normal functions 03:09:53 so their behavior is more straightforward, even though they do something kind of magical internally... the syntax can still be understood without having to explain anything new 03:10:08 egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has joined #lisp 03:10:19 i mean they work on both symbols, denoting functions, and lambda expressions 03:11:11 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-237-105.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:43 right 03:12:04 they're kind of the functional interface for what I was describing, which are the syntactic interfaces 03:12:08 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has quit [Client Quit] 03:12:11 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:12:30 egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has joined #lisp 03:13:31 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has quit [Client Quit] 03:14:44 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@65-124-255-226.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:24 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:17:25 i don't get it on ((lambda (x) x) 1)..., why no macroexpansion occur ? 03:17:36 why should it? 03:17:43 Because eval tests this special case itself. 03:18:38 cataska, what macro? 03:18:57 cataska: you can answer why ((intern "/=")) 1 2) doesn't work 03:19:14 ((intern "/=") 1 2) 03:20:38 stassats: because (intern "/=") is not a function ? 03:20:59 cataska: no. Because (inter "/=") is not the NAME of a function. 03:21:13 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:21:15 cataska: (#.(function /=) 1 2) is wrong too. 03:21:17 no, because the first place in the list isn't evaluated 03:22:21 ok 03:22:28 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.208] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:22:55 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:23:16 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:33 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:28:08 well it *is* evaluated -- as a function 03:28:24 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-17-20.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:54 -!- vng [n=vng@118.68.196.121] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:30:01 functions are not evaluated, forms are 03:30:17 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.69] has joined #lisp 03:30:23 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:30:33 Well functions can be evaluated. But in the operator position, they're not expected and signal an error. 03:31:02 (#.(function /=) 1 2) --> *** - EVAL: # is not a function name; try using a symbol instead 03:31:14 (funcall #.(function /=) 1 2) --> T 03:31:39 Notice in the second case how the function itself is evaluated (and is self evaluating). 03:34:06 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:16 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@65-124-255-226.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [] 03:37:06 what's the thought process behind the naming of 'mapcar'? I'm curious why it's not something like maplist 03:37:25 there's maplist 03:37:29 oh 03:37:47 (defun mapcar (fun list) (if (null list) (cons (funcall fun (CAR list)) (mapcar fun (cdr list))))) 03:38:13 vs. (defun maplist (fun list) (if (null list) (cons (funcall fun LIST) (mapcar fun (cdr list))))) 03:38:19 ah 03:38:22 hmm, i need time to thinking about lambda 03:39:27 s/if/unless/ 03:40:11 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:40:28 egn: mapcar maps the function over the space defined by the cars of the list 03:40:43 egn: maplist maps the function over the space defined by the successive sublists of the lists 03:41:40 rahul: ah, thanks 03:41:41 mapcdr! 03:41:47 thank you all 03:42:16 stassats: but would mapcdr recurse into the car? 03:42:49 stassats: and mapcdr would never pass the whole list to the function 03:42:58 (defun mapcdr (fun list) (maplist fun (cdr list))) 03:43:08 what pjb said 03:43:17 you're no fun :( 03:43:25 Ok, I'm unable to autoxcvbify trivial-ldap due to desire's incapacity to import tarballs. 03:43:28 stassats: there's LOTS of fun in there 03:43:44 stassats: two different references to it! 03:44:43 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:49:09 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:49:16 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 03:52:48 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 03:53:56 git-import-orig might just do it. 03:54:08 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-1b6544f55a14302e] has joined #lisp 03:54:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 03:55:23 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.136.22] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:48 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.136.22] has joined #lisp 03:56:06 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:56:08 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:56:14 An important piece of heuristics is guessing tarball versions. 03:56:48 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has quit [] 03:57:23 Or, alternatively, when listing is available, listing release directory and adequately sorting that. 03:58:06 Version number extraction is also a fuzzy problem. 03:58:17 deepfire: what is autoxcvbify? 03:58:25 as in xcvb a2x ? 04:00:19 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["beb"] 04:02:18 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:04:16 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:59 Fare, no, 1. list your patches, 2. for every module xcvbifiable by your patches, do: 2.1 update the module from upstream, 2.2 download and apply your patch, 2.3 commit as "xcvbify" branch 04:05:52 Fare, all the matter of (update-xcvbification) 04:06:06 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 04:06:13 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:06:57 what if my patch gets out of sync with upstream? 04:07:20 Fare, an error is noted, the working tree cleaned and the 'xcvbify' branch deleted 04:07:50 Fare, I can set up a web interface showing status of periodic updates, if you like 04:08:20 Will take several hours, but all the plumbing is already done. 04:08:55 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:09:11 As soon as I get to actually doing something useful with XCVB systems, more information will be available. 04:09:39 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.136.22] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:10:06 Gasp! 04:10:13 CMU Common Lisp kernel core image 4.0(?) (20A). 04:10:15 [You are in the LISP package.] 04:10:22 (* 2 3) 04:10:24 6 04:10:35 most-positive-fixnum 04:10:55 2305843009213693951 04:11:07 (+ 2d0 3d0) 04:11:21 Type-error in "": 04:11:27 Oh well. Fun while it lasted. 04:11:55 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1AC0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:12:17 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:12:21 benny [n=benny@i577A1AC0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:13:16 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:07 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:15:30 ragnul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:55 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:58 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 04:18:28 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:06 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:19:21 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:07 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 04:23:43 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:24:33 -!- blakkino [n=BLaCk@78.251.225.108] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:24:39 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:26:53 longkid [n=lisp@203.162.44.65] has joined #lisp 04:27:34 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:41 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:28:00 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-22-24.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:28:08 Good morning. 04:28:22 hello sir 04:28:49 longkid: New here? 04:29:17 yes, i just join IRC channel 04:29:33 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:09 longkid: What brings you to #lisp? 04:32:12 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 04:33:17 beach: I'm a member of lisp sudoku project 04:33:29 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:33:32 longkid: I thought that might be the case! Welcome! 04:34:00 beach: I'd better be off 04:34:07 beach: see u later 04:34:14 Yes, see you later. 04:34:30 gko [i=72890645@gateway/web/freenode/x-246e16a2afc677a5] has joined #lisp 04:34:46 -!- longkid [n=lisp@203.162.44.65] has left #lisp 04:35:33 beach: one of your students? 04:35:47 Yes, apparently. 04:36:54 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 04:37:01 *p_l* tries upgrading to firefox 3.6 hoping it will improve speed 04:38:51 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:40:37 as usual first try didn't even compile... due to error in makefiles. ASDF sounds easier :/ 04:40:56 -!- ragnul is now known as rahul 04:41:45 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:42:48 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:44:01 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:54:34 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:06 -!- gko [i=72890645@gateway/web/freenode/x-246e16a2afc677a5] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 04:57:20 A speed-up on the order of 6x to 200x (usually only 60-130x)... I knew the original solution was naive, but it's reassuring to see that I can expect iterations to go from 1 hour to ~1 minute. 04:57:29 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-247-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:56 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:01:08 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 05:01:24 pkhuong: Impressive! What is it? 05:01:48 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:02:39 beach: 0/1 knapsack. Obviously, you don't want to shove that in a MIP solver. 05:02:51 It wasn't obvious how much you really don't want to do that (: 05:03:00 I see :) 05:03:01 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has left #lisp 05:04:37 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 05:05:09 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-236-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:05:12 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host118.190-137-188.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 05:05:26 Tordek [n=tordek@host118.190-137-188.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:09:10 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 05:11:40 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp235.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 05:11:46 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 05:11:47 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:15 beach: and I even get to use purely functional data structures in C++ (: 05:14:09 refcounting probably works ok with that 05:14:50 even though it probably creates far more contention than is necessary... 05:15:20 rahul: no (it'd mess the cache up, especially since as it as, each node fits exactly in a cache line). Region, and I'll write a simple mark/compact GC if needed. 05:15:58 yeah 05:16:29 so do you just let garbage accumulate and just kill-the-world at the end of the computation? 05:16:36 yes. 05:16:51 seems sensible if you can do it :) 05:17:28 the simplest form of copying collector. wait till there are no roots left, and then gc :P 05:18:31 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:22:00 how chicken did it? GC when stack gets filled? 05:22:09 yes 05:22:17 and move stack to the heap 05:22:30 yeah, scan stack copying to heap 05:22:37 which just means that the stack is another word for nursery and they have a stackless implementation 05:23:42 hmm... good thing they don't play directly with assembler in it, porting to some OSes would be interesting :D 05:25:22 p_l: it would be interesting to see them play with some asm to RETurn into their continuations instead of always CALLing. 05:26:10 if the code is laid out correctly for that, that is. 05:29:00 RET would drop a frame from the stack tho 05:29:10 so you'd be screwed 05:29:49 rahul: huh? just push the return address and ret. 05:30:39 doesn't that also set the stack pointer to the prior frame pointer on most archs? 05:31:25 x86, x86-64 and itanium let the program manage its stack frames if any. 05:32:12 does MIPS? 05:32:16 didn't itanium support calls using register windows? (I'm pretty certain SPARC does that and I recall Itanium having similar) 05:34:02 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:35:00 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:35:16 hmm... searching for reference material I ended up finding documentation about japanese lisp machines 05:35:42 p_l: itanium lets the user do arbitrary window rotations. Sparc can do call/return without rotation, but I don't think any implementation predicts return address (if it even has a real dedicated return instruction). 05:36:50 rahul: all the other platforms are even RISCier. If even x86 offers straight call/ret... 05:37:56 pkhuong: I wouldn't be surprised if all P6 and later as well as all K6 and later don't have call/ret in hw 05:38:24 BenMcLean [i=86c17094@gateway/web/freenode/x-8036bcb928102b54] has joined #lisp 05:39:00 hey, it's my understanding that LISP is self-hosting and there are LISP web application frameworks 05:39:05 p_l: eh? Who cares, and later implementations do predict return addresses. 05:39:21 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 05:39:32 Niche platforms may very well not perform any return address prediction though; that's a much more interesting argument to me. 05:39:41 based on that knowledge, shouldn't it be easily possible to make a whole LISP IDE with compiler, linker and runtime right in the web browser? 05:39:57 BenMcLean: no. 05:40:02 why not? 05:40:17 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-4-92.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:40:32 BenMcLean: lisp webapps run lisp on the server. 05:40:37 right 05:41:12 and you should be able to use homoiconicity to accept a LISP program as input from the user and run it server-side, then return the results 05:41:38 shouldn't you? 05:41:46 or am i missing something here? 05:42:17 BenMcLean: Sure, possible and I think some groups at least experimented with it 05:42:22 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has joined #lisp 05:42:26 where's your "compiler, linked and runtime right in the web browser"? 05:42:30 seems like you should be able to write a web app in LISP for writing other LISP web apps 05:42:44 pkhuong, oh my bad, i guess that's not quite what i said 05:42:46 er 05:42:50 i guess i didn't quite mean what i said 05:42:54 BenMcLean: You would basically build a CL version of Plone 05:43:05 s/Plone/Zope/ 05:43:24 BenMcLean: then I don't see where lisp enters the picture more than any other language. 05:43:59 pkhuong, the language would need to have homoiconicity in order to do this 05:44:15 BenMcLean: you mean write a web app that allows you to upload files to the server? 05:44:20 BenMcLean: not at all 05:44:21 BenMcLean: not really, look at Zope 05:44:26 BenMcLean: no, you get strings from the browser. The languages need to be able to receive programs as strings and return output as strings. 05:44:31 the language just needs to be able to write files to disk 05:44:34 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.215.148] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:44:34 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@193.34.28.198] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:44:34 -!- minion [n=minion@208.72.159.207] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:44:34 -!- specbot [n=specbot@208.72.159.207] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:44:34 -!- Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:44:34 -!- qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-skzgdlyshthqmrqc] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:44:34 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:44:34 -!- Orest^bnc [n=Orest@81.169.174.192] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:44:34 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@174.0.43.116] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:44:34 -!- yacin [n=yacin@143.215.130.159] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:44:44 hrm ... you're right 05:44:50 ironChicken [n=richard@193.34.28.198] has joined #lisp 05:44:50 Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 05:44:50 borism [n=boris@195.50.215.148] has joined #lisp 05:44:50 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 05:44:50 rbancroft [n=rumble@174.0.43.116] has joined #lisp 05:44:50 yacin [n=yacin@143.215.130.159] has joined #lisp 05:44:50 qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-skzgdlyshthqmrqc] has joined #lisp 05:44:50 Orest^bnc [n=Orest@81.169.174.192] has joined #lisp 05:44:50 specbot [n=specbot@208.72.159.207] has joined #lisp 05:44:50 minion [n=minion@208.72.159.207] has joined #lisp 05:44:54 i guess it could be done with any language 05:45:06 BenMcLean: Zope is a great example of such an appserver done in Python 05:45:19 apache is a perfectly fine example 05:45:25 er um how? 05:45:30 you can upload CGI scripts to ~/public_html/ 05:45:35 Ah 05:46:03 ok well i dont know lisp yet 05:46:13 my difficulty is in finding a starting point really 05:46:20 Just Do It 05:46:29 write the next thing you want to do in lisp 05:46:38 BenMcLean: what resources are you using to learn? 05:46:49 oh frigging hell 05:46:51 i haven't even gotten started in LISP yet 05:46:59 *rahul* bangs head on desk 05:47:05 just today ran into some stuff that isn't doable in C++, is doable in LISP 05:47:06 BenMcLean, we usually don't capitalize Lisp like that 05:47:10 oh sorry 05:47:14 like i said, newb 05:47:18 apologise to my eyes 05:47:20 I need to make my G-F's optional args optional :P 05:47:23 sorry Adlai's eyes. 05:47:29 thank you 05:47:38 did you say that or did your eyes? lol 05:48:01 *Adlai* spoke on behalf of his eyes 05:48:08 ok thank you for clearing that up. 05:48:09 rahul: use &key/&rest? :) 05:48:16 now 05:48:23 ok, so the situation is I have (defgeneric (foo-value) (foo x &optional info)) 05:48:31 I would like to use LISP to start writing web apps 05:48:35 hmm 05:48:42 BenMcLean: Wtf is LISP? 05:48:44 AAAAAAAAAGH 05:48:46 ooh 05:48:47 sorry 05:48:57 i would like to use lisp to start writing web apps 05:48:58 minion: tell BenMcLean about pcl 05:48:59 BenMcLean: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:49:15 Have a nice, practical introduction to language (available for free, even) 05:49:20 I want to use foo-value as an accessor method, too 05:49:22 bad habit, working in language that are spelled in allcaps. QBASIC, C++, COBOL 05:49:35 as in :accessor foo-value... and just let it ignore the optional args 05:49:52 rahul: (foo-value)? 05:49:56 BenMcLean: working in those languages is quite a bad habit 05:50:07 (foo-value foo) 05:50:26 rahul: why the ()? 05:50:28 well, (defclass foo () ((value :accessor foo-value)))) 05:50:34 that's not a legal function name. 05:50:40 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:50:47 er, right 05:50:54 I was thinking of the setf case 05:50:59 ok 05:51:00 and then decided to simplify 05:51:09 what exactly is the issue here? 05:51:20 the accessor doesn't accept the optional args 05:51:28 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:51:29 but I handle them in an :around method 05:51:38 rahul: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm 05:51:43 rahul, hey in this respect i am a product of my environment 05:51:55 :accessor creates a simple accessor. If you want something fancier, write your own accessors. 05:51:57 the devil made me do it 05:52:03 can't we all just get along 05:52:09 (defmethod foo-value :around (foo &optional info) ... ignore foo and do something with info (call-next-method)) 05:52:30 so ... i should be starting with Common Lisp and not Scheme then? 05:52:35 BenMcLean: bad habits can be broken 05:52:38 if so, why? 05:52:42 if not, why not? 05:52:43 rahul: all lambda-lists must have the same number of optional parameters. 05:52:50 see 7.6.4 #2 05:52:57 BenMcLean, this channel focuses on CL 05:52:58 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:53:00 but you can go nuts with &key/&rest. 05:53:06 BenMcLean: scheme is not CL. we use CL. if you want scheme there is #scheme 05:53:13 sykopomp: I know 05:53:22 I want a loophole 05:53:24 oh, well what I would like to know is the pros and cons of CL vs scheme 05:53:28 BenMcLean, there are many discussions of that 05:53:30 rahul: use &key. 05:53:39 yeah, I'm pondering that 05:53:45 Adlai, can you summarize it in a way a complete idiot can understand? 05:53:59 BenMcLean: CL is awesome. Scheme sucks. 05:54:03 next! 05:54:07 BenMcLean: it's like talking about the pros and cons of Java vs C++ 05:54:18 well i could make some comments there 05:54:21 rahul: Java Sucks, C++ Sucks, Too? 05:54:23 C++ is faster 05:54:25 heh 05:54:28 BenMcLean: WRONG 05:54:35 thats what i've been told 05:54:48 I've been told that Obama is a Muslim 05:55:06 I heard he's a socialist. That one was funny. 05:55:07 everybody knows obama is a space alien. He doesn't DO earth religions 05:55:21 exactly 05:55:30 BenMcLean: Languages don't determine speed. Implementations do. 05:55:35 and the same thing with talking about speed of languages 05:55:42 BenMcLean: go read about scheme and common lisp on wikipedia. 05:55:43 BenMcLean: Scheme's way: "You can implement it yourself!" CL's way: "Here's a THOUSAND pages of functions, macros, and variables!" 05:55:44 sykopomp, actually that one is true, if you take socialist as a technical definition of one's economic policy and not as a derogatory politilcal term 05:55:45 you might as well say that English is faster than French 05:55:45 BenMcLean, very superficially: Scheme is a small and pure language, while CL is a "bloated" and useful language 05:55:59 BenMcLean: he's not socialist even from an economic policy standpoint. 05:56:02 dralston: until R6RS :) 05:56:09 BenMcLean: Pretty much they only thing Scheme and CL have in common is the superficial syntax (and not even that, really). 05:56:11 Haaha :P 05:56:18 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:56:18 BenMcLean: but that's offtopic. 05:56:22 go read wikipedia. 05:56:39 i read a little on wikipedia on scheme and on CL 05:56:45 BenMcLean: I guess Goldman Sachs supports socialism then 05:58:14 BenMcLean: people here are going to say learn CL. Read PCL (maybe Touretzky first) and start having some fun. 05:58:23 Beach's first rule of programming: It is impossible to write a C++ program that is both fast and modular. 05:59:02 beach: it's not all that easy with CL, either. 05:59:07 *shrug* wants socialized medicine? check. wants government to buy out most of the economy? check. favors government-run systems over free market solutions? check. Um, I'd say the guy's a socialist. 05:59:09 although I guess you have a better chance at it :) 05:59:17 BenMcLean: offtopic. 05:59:24 BenMcLean: take it elsewhere. 05:59:42 BenMcLean: ok, goldman is a bunch of socialists. forget it. 06:00:15 rahul: they are by some people's definitions, but I'll leave it at that as this is way OT already 06:00:22 sykopomp: True, but for different reasons. 06:00:36 rahul well if their choices are going broke due to government regulation, and being on the recieving end of government bailout money, even goldmans will turn socialist. 06:00:46 sigh 06:00:48 stop it, please. 06:00:50 I said forget it 06:00:51 oh right sorry 06:01:46 beach: What's different about the reasons? 06:02:22 in CL, writing fast code very often involves filling your code with type declarations and limiting the flexibility of the thing, avoiding classes and genfuns in favor of inlined functions, etc etc. 06:02:30 sykopomp: In C++, since it has no automatic memory management, it is hard to know globally whether an object is live or not. 06:02:38 sykopomp: Unless you sacrifice modularity. 06:02:39 O .... K ....... 06:03:06 which one's easier to get started learning with if you're a total n00b? 06:03:16 assuming you're aiming to get started doing serious/real programming in it eventually 06:03:22 sykopomp, flexibility /= modularity 06:03:24 BenMcLean: Between what and what? 06:03:34 beach, CL and scheme 06:03:39 BenMcLean, as rme said, pretty much everybody in this channel will recommend CL 06:03:56 yeah and #scheme will recommend scheme 06:03:57 BenMcLean: Since they are so different, why don't you consider something even simpler like BASIC. 06:04:06 but that doesn't tell me anything about which I should use 06:04:11 beach, i already know BASIC 06:04:20 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-133-145-111.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:04:32 beach: but then in CL you've already sacrified some modularity: everything has to work with the GC. 06:04:34 BenMcLean: start with CL. 06:04:41 i am just at the point in C++ where I think I know how to use classes, just before i find out I totally don't know what I thought I knew again, if you know what I mean 06:05:23 BenMcLean: I started with CL, and had no problems. 06:06:52 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.31.46] has joined #lisp 06:07:59 http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-vs-common-lisp 06:08:01 "What should I use" sorts of questions aren't nearly as interesting as "why should I use them". 06:10:00 egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has joined #lisp 06:13:53 hmm &rest doesn't work here... 06:13:58 I don't think &key will either 06:14:53 hi, at risk of being eaten alive for not using slime, is there any way to go to the previous command on the sbcl repl? I know * does the whole rest, but I want to be able to see it sometimes 06:15:14 oh well, screw the accessor. it's only for one case out of 3 that I can even use it 06:15:15 egn: nope. Try using rlwrap or sb-aclrepl if you must. 06:15:21 pkhuong: k, thanks 06:15:44 unless + is what you're looking for. 06:15:47 egn, also there are repl variables that give that 06:15:59 (what pkhuong said) 06:16:06 thanks 06:20:01 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:47 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:06 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:57 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:29:04 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host118.190-137-188.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:33:11 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:33:37 Tordek [n=tordek@host194.190-138-156.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 06:35:13 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:16 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:43:51 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 06:44:09 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:46:03 slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:47:03 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo4.186.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:32 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 06:51:55 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 06:52:17 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 06:53:25 AbstractTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 06:53:25 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 06:54:08 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 06:54:11 -!- AbstractTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:13 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo4.186.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:54:26 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo4.186.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:41 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:57:26 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.69] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:01:29 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:58 -!- dalkvist_ [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:50 -!- BenMcLean [i=86c17094@gateway/web/freenode/x-8036bcb928102b54] has left #lisp 07:05:24 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:07:35 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:08:22 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:09:29 mikl0 [n=mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:36 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:17:04 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229114136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:38 egomosis1 [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has joined #lisp 07:21:31 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:21:44 -!- mikl0 [n=mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:21:48 hello 07:23:12 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:25:35 -!- egomosis [n=egomosis@222.240.176.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:27:29 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.31.46] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:27:54 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.168.67] has left #lisp 07:31:29 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 07:32:23 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:32:26 Good morning. 07:32:36 hello 07:33:35 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.31.46] has joined #lisp 07:33:47 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.31.46] has quit [Client Quit] 07:34:05 hi plage, all well in bordeaux? 07:34:39 frodef: Yes, thank you. How are things with you? 07:35:23 plage: good, settling in to new job. 07:35:56 Ah, Lisp related? 07:36:47 yes, lots of lisp :) 07:37:37 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 07:40:23 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:40:51 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest90773 07:44:30 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:33 frodef: any specifics? :-) 07:44:47 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:45:13 -!- Guest90773 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:47:37 billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:49 p_l: provide internet stock trading with lispworks. 07:50:10 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:53 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:51:10 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:54:57 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:55:38 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-6-97.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:56:21 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:57:41 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:00:55 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:01:01 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:01:40 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 08:03:06 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:04:08 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:05:18 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:05:41 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:13 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:10:12 frodef: Will you have time to work on Movitz? 08:10:54 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:11:23 plage: hopefully, after work, almost finished the new terrace, fixed the car, fetched the kids from kindergarden, etc, etc.. :) 08:11:32 :-) 08:11:36 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:11:50 plage: well, I do hope to find some time this winter. 08:12:37 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:50 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:16:00 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:21:29 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:24:42 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:24:47 good morning 08:26:57 hello kami- 08:27:04 clim frame-layout 08:27:04 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for frame-layout. 08:27:09 Oh? 08:27:41 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:28:12 good morning 08:28:15 clim frame-current-layout 08:28:15 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-3.html#_1509 08:28:17 hello mvilleneuve 08:28:35 -!- billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 08:28:42 good morning mvilleneuve 08:30:12 tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:56 OK, so will fix (setf frame-current-layout) in McCLIM for me? 08:31:55 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:07 anyone know what the story is with hunchentoot and ht-ajax? is ht-ajax no longer maintained? 08:35:19 Okay, desire now does tarballs as well. 08:36:20 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:37:35 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D7AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:09 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.250] has joined #lisp 08:40:45 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:41:41 billitch 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antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 10:15:06 gaaah 10:15:39 There is no applicable method for the generic function # 10:16:00 when called with arguments (0 #). 10:16:17 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:17 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:17 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:17 -!- ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:17 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:17 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:17 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:17 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:17 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:17 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:17 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:17 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:16:39 oh duh 10:16:41 ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:41 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:16:41 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 10:16:41 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 10:16:41 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:41 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:41 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:41 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[n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:21:42 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:21:42 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:21:42 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:22:06 ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 10:22:21 This method implements the inheritance and defaulting of slot options following the rules described in the Inheritance of Slots and Options section of the CLOS Specification. 10:22:57 um, how do I add inheritance and defaulting of options I added to my custom slotd class? 10:23:10 you can't 10:23:25 (there's usually a function, unexported, called something like compute-effective-slot-definition-initargs) 10:23:32 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:23:32 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:23:32 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:23:32 -!- ``Erik 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[i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 10:24:24 well, I guess I can manually traverse the dslotds and setf slot-value for the option I added 10:25:22 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [calvino.freenode.net 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10:36:44 lnostdal: it's not hard to (call-next-method) and then set slot values on the returned eslotd 10:36:47 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:36:47 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:36:47 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:36:47 -!- ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:36:47 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:36:47 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:36:47 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:36:47 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:36:47 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit 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[n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 10:37:10 rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 10:37:10 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 10:37:10 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 10:37:37 yeah, but sometimes i've been wanting to determine eslotd instance based on those initargs .. perhaps that's dumb, anyway though 10:38:28 ..and IIRC there was some other missing info .. cesdi really has more info about, stuff (i don't recall exactly.... :/) 10:38:41 wangbo_ [n=wangbo@118.249.186.179] has joined #lisp 10:38:46 egomosis [n=egomosis@58.20.34.95] has joined #lisp 10:39:08 I tried a handler-case to catch an error, but it seems like all other error types are merely suppressed. 10:39:19 -!- wangbo_ [n=wangbo@118.249.186.179] has left #lisp 10:40:06 or maybe you're doing something wrong 10:40:25 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:40:25 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit 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[n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:37 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:51:51 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest11430 10:52:43 -!- crypto_ is now known as z0d 10:55:34 gaaaahhh 10:55:45 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 10:55:54 why oh why is s-v-u-c's LAST arg the slotd? 10:56:27 the class of the slotd should be the most important thing to determining its value, I would think 10:57:53 nipra__ [n=nipra@117.195.97.248] has joined #lisp 10:59:25 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 11:02:15 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 11:02:51 damn it 11:03:14 I wish I could override the eslotd initargs because I want to get rid of the initform/function 11:05:45 jmaclean [n=jmaclean@194.75.202.163] has joined #lisp 11:06:13 doing (apply #'make-instance 'my-eslotd ... (sb-pcl::compute-effective-slot-definition-initargs class dslotds)) in compute-effective-slot-definition is the only way i've found 11:06:15 ..to do that 11:06:33 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 11:07:53 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:08:14 well, if i'm parsing what you're saying correctly that is .. heh 11:08:17 I'm going to hide the options elsewhere in the dslotd 11:09:18 what's the right function for removing a pair from a plist? 11:09:33 (remove-from-plist ..) 11:09:38 ..from alexandria 11:10:38 consing :key and nil onto the front 11:10:52 Xof: good idea, thanks 11:11:13 wait, that's cheating 11:11:16 :) 11:11:27 oh wait, no. I want to make the arg not show up at all 11:11:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:26 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 11:12:29 then (loop for (key value . rest) on plist by #'cddr unless (eql key thingy) collect key and collect value) 11:12:37 yeah 11:12:47 nothing built in. ok thanks 11:12:54 kami-` [n=user@p5B20F3DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:22 remf + copy-list 11:13:32 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/2520fe9bc7749328 has the bonus feature of using NRECONC 11:15:04 I bet REMF was specified to be a destructive operation because of backwards compatibility 11:16:08 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:16:15 -!- kami-` is now known as kami- 11:17:33 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:19:00 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:20:32 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:21:24 arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-208-2.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:34 In handler-bind and handler-case, when an error not in the binding list is signalled but not from the last form, it seems to be suppressed. What am I doing wrong? 11:21:38 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-210-30.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:43 Is is supposed to be like that? 11:22:08 no. You are misunderstanding what you are seeing 11:22:31 Xof: ok, how? 11:22:48 I don't know 11:22:52 I'm not seeing what you are seeing 11:25:06 I'll paste it. 11:25:19 Xof: MAKE-SEQUENCE-LIKE wouldn't be needed, if we introduced a sequence-type-designator which is either a type-specifier for a sequence, or a sequence itself, and adapt make-sequence accordingly. (also MAP) 11:25:45 I guess such a change would be too "invasive" though 11:27:35 OTOH consequences are unspecified (undefined?) if the Argument and Values section is violated, so we'd be free to define the behaviour when the user passes a sequence 11:28:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:10 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28:19 oh darn I'm just seeing the Exceptional Situation constraint 11:29:21 Hi everybody, would be anyone possible to write neverending stream? 11:29:56 something like (cons-stream ....) 11:30:33 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:34 Are you talking of lazy lists? 11:31:06 -!- rsynnott [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:31:11 rsynnott [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has joined #lisp 11:31:18 tcr: I guess so. 11:31:18 -!- rsynnott [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31:22 -!- rsynnott_ is now known as rsynnott 11:31:26 meingbg pasted "error signalled only from last form?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89774 11:31:37 tcr: It wasn't really explained to us. 11:31:39 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:25 Xof: Do you see what I see now? 11:32:44 StanleyD: get it from SICP on the web 11:33:09 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D7AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 11:33:38 just be sure to use defun and defvar instead of define and put #' in front of literal names for functions 11:34:02 oh, and you have to funcall the function 11:34:17 instead of sticking a variable name at the front of the list 11:34:19 meingbg: / is probably being treated as a side-effect-free function 11:34:34 if it's not used for its return value, the entire form can be deleted 11:34:49 "The consequences are unspecified if any argument other than the first is zero" 11:35:25 Xof: ok. 11:35:56 try surrounding it in something like PRINT 11:36:08 that should get the compiler to leave it in 11:38:16 Xof: Seems you're correct. substituting (/ 1 0) with (setq a (/ 1 0)) gives a signal 11:38:33 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:38:33 Xof: thanks for your help. 11:40:43 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAD68.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:47:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:53:59 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:33 -!- arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-208-2.net-htp.de] has quit [] 12:00:28 clhs restart-case 12:00:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_ca.htm 12:03:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-20.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 12:17:39 colin_ [n=colin@114-44-227-26.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:56 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 12:18:38 -!- colin__ [n=colin@114-44-228-138.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:35 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 12:20:30 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-1b6544f55a14302e] has left #lisp 12:29:05 ibnby2 [n=ibnby@f049119071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:32:48 ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.161] has joined #lisp 12:34:10 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:07 *Xach* feels the excitement building 12:35:18 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:25 *tcr* doesn't and feels like he's missing out something :( 12:35:49 the franz japanese lisp seminar! 12:37:39 *cmm* thinks that teleportation and babelfishing are way overdue 12:37:40 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 12:38:20 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 12:41:09 -!- ibnby [n=ibnby@f049084027.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:44:24 *udzinari* wishes he knew more about lisp and #lisp few years ago.. 12:44:52 manuel_ [n=manuel@p57AB7D2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:56 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:08 udzinari: It's not too late. 12:45:44 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 12:46:47 People as old as 30 have succesfully learned lisp. 12:47:31 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:47:38 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:48:52 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:51 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:49:59 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:50:31 oO 12:51:40 *udzinari* goes back to the flow.. I understands now! programming has never been fun before 12:53:34 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:53:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:46 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BEB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:55:55 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 12:56:11 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:57:02 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 12:59:39 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:01:42 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:19 -!- prip [n=_prip@host61-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:03:56 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:08:34 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:09:08 (cl:find :foo '(1 2 3) :start nil) signals a type error that NIL is not a fixnum. 13:09:13 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:09:45 Reading the glossary entry for /bounding index designator/, I read it that NIL is supposed to designate the length of the sequence 13:09:59 regardless of whether it's the start, or the end parameter 13:10:23 tcr: i don't read it that way. 13:10:25 Of course, a start parameter of the length of the sequence should still signal an error, but one of type sequence-out-of-bounds 13:10:42 tcr: an (integer and nil) or an (integer and integer) 13:10:52 (is how i read it) 13:11:00 same here 13:11:28 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@s72-38-68-53.static.comm.cgocable.net] has quit ["leaving"] 13:11:38 you read that from the constraint that "they denote /bounding indices/"? 13:11:57 tcr: I read that from the part following "and are either:" 13:12:26 ah you read "either" referring one time to the start, and the other time to end? 13:12:38 yes 13:12:54 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:56 I guess that makes sense because it's "an integer ... _and_ nil", it's "and" not "or" 13:13:23 prip [n=_prip@host61-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:13:29 Regenaxer [n=baldur@pd9568a7a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:32 yes, each part, separated by commas, describes the types of index pairs it will accept 13:13:41 separated by a comma, rather 13:14:30 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 13:14:39 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:27 tcr, I second (third?) Xach and stassats 13:15:33 G'morning all. 13:16:40 good morning nyef 13:22:18 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@p57AB7D2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 13:24:30 manuel_ [n=manuel@p57AB7D2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:20 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:26:55 Adlai pasted "SLIME Warnings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89776 13:27:45 morning 13:29:04 My slime version is 2009-11-02, pulled through clbuild 13:29:21 I reloaded it using the reload-slime function from stassats's github repo 13:29:40 that's ccl? 13:29:40 now I get these two warnings when I ,restart 13:29:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:59 tcr, I actually get it on both CCL and SBCL 13:30:05 Yeah there are some test cases automatically run at the end of contrib/swank-arglists.lisp 13:31:11 ok, should I be worried about these warnings? is there any way to suppress or fix thisL 13:31:12 ? 13:32:33 No you don't need to be worried. You could post to slime-devel as a reminder 13:32:45 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 13:33:20 highb_ [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #lisp 13:33:48 -!- highb [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:55 tcr: what's the purpose to run them each time? 13:37:17 test-print-arglist should probably become a slime-test autodoc.2 13:37:38 the autodoc.1 test must be updated btw 13:38:16 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:38:52 ok, I mailed slime-devel 13:39:14 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:14 -!- thatdavidmiller [n=thatdavi@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:39:25 stassats: Would be cool if you could do that 13:41:23 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:42:05 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:42:14 hmm, is there any standard way to distinguish (open ... :direction :output :if-exists :error) errors from other extra-standard errors (like permission denied)? 13:42:45 :if-exists nil? 13:43:08 hmm, ok 13:43:59 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@p57AB7D2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 13:44:04 *lichtblau* guesses that a suggestion to use iolib wouldn't be welcome 13:44:19 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.220.116] has joined #lisp 13:45:55 tcr: maybe later 13:47:44 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:48:48 co1t [n=co1t@85.232.127.216] has joined #lisp 13:50:43 longkid [n=lisp@113.22.157.20] has joined #lisp 13:51:58 beach: hello sir 13:54:05 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:08 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:55:09 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 13:56:18 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:56:25 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:56:34 *Xach* gets screwed over by rename-file defaulting and filenames with no dot 13:57:04 what are you cooking? 13:57:17 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:29 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:43 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:57:50 good thing not by delete-file 13:58:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:58:26 tcr: url shortener. storing things in plain files, keeping track of already-seen urls. 13:58:49 the google calendar urls for lisp meeting events are massive 13:58:49 ... and another opportunity for iolib to demonstrate its virtues compared to CL file operations! 13:59:32 http://www.google.com/calendar/event?eid=aTBqaDJicnJjNHFnYnBudmo1cW9tZTRobDQgcG01NWo4a2czMGRubTU0aWIyaWY5ZnVvY2NAZw is an example 13:59:37 well, i guess that's not *too* massive 13:59:39 Xach: and already available url shorteners aren't suitable? 13:59:43 I was going to say, that's tiny! 13:59:45 too massive for twitter. 14:00:10 stassats: where's the fun in that? 14:05:51 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 14:05:51 tsuru` [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:29 metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:58 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 14:11:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:09 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:15:34 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:16:40 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:20 thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has joined #lisp 14:19:22 This is probably pretty basic, and slightly off-topic, but... How can I do a bulletted list in TeX? 14:20:43 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:21:15 nyef: \begin{itemize} \item ... \end{itemize} 14:21:35 nyef: Sorry, we can only answer that question if you ask it about Exscribe. 14:22:10 metasyntax: Thanks. 14:22:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:22:15 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:22 nyef: Er, that's LaTeX anyway, plain TeX is different. 14:22:27 Oh. 14:22:46 sellout: Or if someone is manic enough to rewrite TeX in Lisp? 14:23:11 Is there list stuff in plain TeX? It's been a long time, but I thought I remebered inserting bullets and stuff explicitly. 14:23:20 tex2page :-) 14:23:32 ^^^ written in Scheme 14:23:37 I don't mind inserting the bullets explicitly, but I don't know how offhand. 14:24:38 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 14:25:26 nyef: http://www.tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/2002-July/000498.html 14:25:44 confounds_focus [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:48 -!- confounds_focus is now known as confounds 14:25:50 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 14:26:19 hello 14:26:24 Perfect, thank you! 14:26:57 is there anyone used to program Sudoku game? 14:27:25 longkid: peter norvig did 14:27:32 so did simon alexander 14:27:38 Harag [n=Harag@wbs-196-2-104-172.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:28:18 Xach: thanks 14:32:02 demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.209] has joined #lisp 14:33:13 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1AC0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:40:10 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.209] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:40:37 -!- longkid [n=lisp@113.22.157.20] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:44:48 demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:44:51 Is the order specified that ASDF grovels over dependencies? 14:44:55 colin__ [n=colin@114-44-227-26.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:50 -!- colin__ [n=colin@114-44-227-26.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:46:47 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:34 demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.209] has joined #lisp 14:47:46 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:48:02 It is specified to be a linearization of the tree of dependencies as constrained by the (possibly partial) order expressed within the system definition, isn't it? 14:50:47 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:51:42 Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 14:53:47 -!- co1t [n=co1t@85.232.127.216] has quit [Client Quit] 14:54:25 co1t [n=co1t@85.232.124.217] has joined #lisp 14:54:33 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:54:41 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:57:46 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-4-92.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:57:59 devD_ [n=devD@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has joined #lisp 14:59:04 suggest me a major project which I can make with LISP for my final year engineering project. 14:59:15 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:10 nyef: Well it processed :depends-on clauses from right to left which suprised me 15:00:15 devD_: suspension bridge fatigue modeling and visualization 15:00:15 surprised even 15:00:41 Xach, ok . i am googling for this 15:00:51 tcr: But :depends-on is notionally a set, not something with a conceptual order. 15:01:23 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:42 devD_: for what? 15:01:43 yeah I'm bitten by defining my foo-test system in the .asd file for foo 15:01:45 (I always figured that ASDF would do exactly what I don't want it to do unless either I explicitly declare all of my dependencies or I use :serial t.) 15:02:04 devD_: maybe there's an engineering topic closer to your heart than bridges. if so, try that instead. 15:02:06 Xach, the topic you told above for project 15:02:18 tcr: Wait, how does that bite you? 15:02:35 Xach, I am doingineering from computers so give idea of some software 15:02:39 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host35.190-228-243.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:03:00 sellout: I had :depends-on (:bar :foo-test), where :bar depends on :foo 15:03:19 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-17-20.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:21 sellout: which would work if asdf processed the clauses from left to right 15:04:03 tcr: What is depending on the test system for foo? 15:04:08 longkid [n=lisp@113.22.157.20] has joined #lisp 15:04:32 devD_: software engineering or engineering software? 15:04:38 tcr: Yeah, I see how that could break. I never expected to have anything depend on my test system, though. 15:04:45 sellout: bar is an extension of foo 15:05:00 cvandusen, software engineering 15:05:04 *froydnj* always gets grumpy about asdf not doing a very good job supporting multiple systems (either test systems in the same/different .asd or subsystems versus asdf-install) 15:05:20 tcr: no, what system is ':depends-on (:bar :foo-test)' in? 15:05:27 bar-test 15:05:49 Hrmm, how do you run your tests? 15:05:51 it's supposed to reuse some of the test infrastructure of foo 15:06:06 (asdf:test-system :bar) 15:06:08 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:07:05 tcr: Ah, so it's not just that you want to run foo's tests before bar's tests. It's the infrastructure sharing that's causing the issue. I see. 15:07:09 That makes sense. 15:07:16 doesn't foo-test also depend on foo? 15:07:32 Xof: but foo.asd hasn't been loaded yet. 15:07:41 ah 15:08:17 tcr: Only thing that comes to mind immediately is factoring out the common bits into a new test-infrastructure system. 15:08:32 Bah I just reversed the :depend-on clause for the time being 15:08:56 tcr: And added a comment to explain that the ordering is important there? 15:09:06 Of course not 15:09:09 heh 15:09:12 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 15:09:14 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:09:24 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:09:40 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 15:09:44 I'll come back to it, there are more important construction places right now 15:09:49 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:09:51 (famous last words) 15:11:17 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:17 -!- fungo [n=fungo@118.249.186.179] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:45 yarra [n=yarra@58.142.236.25] has joined #lisp 15:12:59 -!- yarra [n=yarra@58.142.236.25] has left #lisp 15:14:20 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:15:26 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host194.190-138-156.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:54 What would be a good name for (sequence-element-type '(0 1 3 4 5)) => integer, (sequence-element-type '(0 1.0)) => number, (sequence-element-type '(0 "foo")) => t 15:17:07 sequence-element-type is obviously wrong 15:17:27 inferred-sequence-element-type? 15:17:34 yeah something like that 15:17:49 -!- Guest11430 is now known as pkhuong 15:19:07 is there a good reason why the first two can't be unsigned-byte, real? 15:19:34 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 15:19:58 no they can 15:20:02 or (mod 6), (real *) 15:20:07 erm, (real 0) 15:20:14 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has joined #lisp 15:20:47 is it possible to pass initargs to a metaclass from a defclass form? 15:20:49 I now wonder how best I can move up the type lattice 15:20:49 or (member 0 1 3 4 5). 15:20:50 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:19 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:00 tcr: if you restrict yourself to atomic, built-in type specifiers it should be easy (because apart from a couple of tricky cases, including ironically sequence itself, there's a natural order) 15:22:10 tcr: u-a-e-t the union of type-of all of the elements of the sequence? 15:22:28 nyef: that won't get you (real 0) 15:22:36 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:22:39 Fair point. 15:22:44 no but that's actually close to what I need 15:22:49 thanks nyef 15:22:58 No problem. 15:23:00 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:23:31 *nyef* goes back to figuring out polynomial factorization. 15:24:01 woops right in front of my face. ignore me.. 15:24:29 demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-84-36-201.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:15 nyef: You mean the theory, or how to implement it efficiently? 15:25:39 Theory, sortof. 15:25:49 benny [n=benny@i577A1B26.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:26:27 I'm attempting to remediate some of my math skills before I get myself in trouble with computational linguistics or anything else. 15:27:17 milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.221] has joined #lisp 15:27:47 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:29:16 Athas` [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:29:43 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 15:34:09 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:34:59 Athas`` [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:35:46 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-25-247.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:36:17 I don't know if it because I'm retarded or if I'm bored, but I'm philosophying on if one should use find or member if one is just uses the result as true or false... 15:36:38 Can't it be both? 15:36:46 yes it can. 15:36:48 knobo: member or position; (find nil ...) will always return nil. 15:36:49 try to find NIL with member 15:36:55 err, with find 15:37:06 I have thought about that.. 15:37:18 There's also the issue that you FIND things on lists, but you check for MEMBERship in sets. 15:37:25 devD_: a physics engine like havoc, bullet, ode, etc. 15:37:55 and find works not only on lists 15:40:04 knobo: you can use the return value of member to replace the element you just searched for 15:40:52 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 15:40:53 tcr: that's a very good point. makes generic tools. 15:41:27 uhm it's more like an efficiency hack 15:42:18 -!- Athas` [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:42:30 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-84-36-201.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:41 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:42:50 and you can find other currencies 15:43:20 s/currencies/occurrences/ 15:44:12 Athas``` [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:44:31 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:44:41 Funny solution: (some (lambda (x) (typep x '(member 5 3))) (list 1 2 3 4 5 6)) 15:44:58 *tcr* actually needs an object of type NIL 15:45:25 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:25 tcr: You can't have an object of type NIL, by definition. 15:46:14 I mean I could use one :) 15:46:46 -!- Athas``` [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 15:47:12 Mmm... I occasionally find situations where it would be Really Handy to have an unbound-marker that I can mess about with. 15:47:21 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:48:00 -!- Athas`` [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:48:23 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:26 you mean an object that on evaluation signals an error? 15:48:40 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 15:48:57 hey, interesting. I get weird profiling failures with gprof too, on os x (: 15:49:04 No, an object that signals an error if and only if you try to read it from a symbol's value slot, a struct slot, etc. 15:49:38 You can pass them as parameters just fine, for example. 15:49:44 yeah makes sense 15:50:02 They're also eq-comparable. 15:50:19 ejs [n=eugen@142-11-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:40 I want to export a TYPEXPAND-1 and TYPEXPAND from sbcl, should I add that to sb-ext, or sb-introspect? 15:50:54 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:20 *nyef* feels vaguely frightened by the concept of "TYPEXPAND", but isn't sure why. 15:51:23 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:51:32 tcr: what is the use case? 15:51:47 Haplo_ [n=ihatchon@LPuteaux-156-14-10-37.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:52:57 typexpand? 15:53:10 One is to find out if something is a valid type specifier. 15:55:12 the other is for documentation tools to expand an internally used type specifier to a degree that the type specifier is made of exported (or cl) type specifiers 15:56:15 Isn't there some existing function that throws an error when given a bogus type specifier? typep, maybe? 15:56:49 nyef: nope consequences are undefined 15:57:00 the best you can do is (subtypep thing nil) 15:57:08 which will work for atomic type specifiers 15:57:23 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:47 (nth-value 1 (subtypep thing nil)) 16:01:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:09 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 16:03:59 MostafaSheshtawy [n=chatzill@196.221.149.28] has joined #lisp 16:04:03 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:24 *tcr* so often wants FLET* 16:04:37 hey guys ... How can i compare two strings ?? 16:04:56 (string= a b) 16:05:01 string=, or string-equal if case-insensitively 16:06:15 what if one of the strings is a read !? 16:06:27 to make it short . i wanna do Eliza in lisp ! 16:06:43 That's original. 16:06:45 tcr: Isn't FLET* a subset of LABELS? 16:07:10 MostafaSheshtawy: that example is published in more than one book about Lisp. 16:07:16 so the user must enter few words .. i will read the whole sentence ,. check few words .. and print an output concertns that input 16:07:31 nyef: Sure. My mind searches for the recursive use if I see LABELS, though. 16:07:39 Xach: can u recommend one book ? 16:07:54 MostafaSheshtawy: Paradigms of AI Programming by Peter Norvig 16:08:01 tcr, FLET* is just a defmacro away... 16:08:10 Xach: thanks 16:08:14 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:22 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAD68.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:10:23 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:10:30 Fare, there? 16:10:48 lake [n=irchon@166.137.7.17] has joined #lisp 16:11:48 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 16:12:28 Adlai: It's not as trivial as you might think if you want to do it properly 16:12:51 It's straightforward with my parse-declarations library though 16:13:16 -!- longkid [n=lisp@113.22.157.20] has left #lisp 16:13:24 true, for both 16:14:22 tcr: is that part of alexandria? 16:14:41 froydnj: Nope, it's its own library 16:14:53 -!- lake [n=irchon@166.137.7.17] has quit [Client Quit] 16:14:56 http://common-lisp.net/project/parse-declarations/manual/html_node/index.html 16:15:11 see thet LET* example 16:15:17 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-21.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:18:05 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:18:22 TR2N [i=email@89-180-220-170.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 16:19:32 -!- MostafaSheshtawy [n=chatzill@196.221.149.28] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:58 *tcr* finds a need for EVAL-IN-LEXENV 16:20:40 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:26:09 Good evening! 16:29:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:23 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:30:26 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:34:43 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:35:11 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:35:43 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 16:37:13 hello 16:37:24 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:38:49 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:07 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:37 Hey Haplo_; long time no see! 16:41:00 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 good to see you guys 16:41:03 hey guys waht's up 16:41:06 <- new 16:41:08 Greetings. 16:41:12 *what's 16:41:26 Intertricity: What brings you to #lisp? 16:41:26 clhs 7.6.4 16:41:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm 16:41:57 Congruent lambda lists for generic functions using &rest and &key can be confusing. 16:42:18 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-199-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:21 Actually, I meant using &rest *or* &key. 16:42:36 beach, I was initially studying Python, but I have friends who are just damned good programmers any way you slice it, I thought maybe if I learned lisp I could come to grips with programming concepts faster than with python or C++ ... although I realize there aren't many libraries, but the sheer geekiness of emacs and console type things kind of excites me :) 16:43:09 Oh, there are some libraries. 16:43:24 If the generic function lambda list specifies &rest, a congruent lambda list can specify &key. 16:43:45 beach, what kind of stuff do you do with lisp? 16:43:58 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-17-20.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:43:58 Is this an artifact of implementing congruent lambda lists, or does it have a use? 16:44:14 I am however a bit excited about clojure and the CLR- though not as much about it being implemented with C# 16:44:20 minion: please tell Intertricity about Gsharp. 16:44:20 Intertricity: have a look at Gsharp: Gsharp is a graphical, interactive score editing application for standard Music notation. http://www.cliki.net/Gsharp 16:44:50 beach, what was cool, does it accept malformed strings? >.> 16:45:07 "it"? 16:45:31 sorry I meant minion 16:45:39 minion: are you a bot? 16:45:40 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 16:45:41 and, this project is pretty neat, I didn't know lisp had any graphics libraries 16:45:52 Intertricity: Rich dropped the CLR, no? It's JVM all they way now, baby! Right? 16:45:55 minion: tell me about Gsharp 16:45:55 Intertricity: please see Gsharp: Gsharp is a graphical, interactive score editing application for standard Music notation. http://www.cliki.net/Gsharp 16:46:21 sellout, it started with JVM, I think they're adding CLR support now 16:46:22 s/they/the/ 16:46:33 Which would mean a lot more libraries would be available to lisp users 16:46:47 even Ogre possibly :o 16:46:56 Worst troll ever. 16:47:27 Intertricity: don't make fun of aerique's efforts, it's not nice. 16:47:54 Xach: The problem with good trolling is that you actually have to study the language you want to troll and then you risk learning something. 16:47:57 Intertricity: Actually, it started on the CLR, since that's what Rich needed for work. He dropped it, but it looks like someone started a new CLR port. 16:48:02 I.. what? I wasn't aware I was insulting someone, I'm sorry if I did 16:48:16 sellout, ohhhh I see 16:48:54 Intertricity: http://common-lisp.net/project/okra/ seems to already work 16:49:14 Intertricity: The problem is that you end up coding for Clojure/JVM or Clojure/CLR. Clojure doesn't really cover enough for you to avoid calling out to other libraries directly. So once you call a Java function all the Clojure/CLR users are screwed. 16:49:16 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:49:29 (or vice versa) 16:49:55 Xach, oh wow I didn't see that. I didn't know common-lisp was still active, I looked over the site last night and the last news update was from 2008 16:50:03 *common-lisp.net 16:50:21 sellout, I see, so I'm better off sticking with a sbcl or similar? 16:50:23 heh, "the site" 16:50:25 So... let me consolidate my previous ramblings. Would anyone like to explain to me why specifying &rest in the generic function lambda list allows &key in the method list? Requirements of implementation or does it have a use? 16:51:05 Intertricity: Well, Clojure is also not Common Lisp. It's a very different language. 16:51:21 tmh: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm has some info 16:51:28 Whether you want one or the other will depend on a number of things. 16:51:46 tmh: particularly #4 16:51:54 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:52:29 Intertricity: I don't necessarily see the reliance on calling Java as a bad thing, but it means if a CLR version pops up, you fragment the userbase, and maybe you end up with the problem Scheme has. 16:52:43 sellout, what problem is that? 16:52:48 You can't write "Scheme", you write PLT, or Gambit, etc. 16:53:11 ahhh 16:53:15 Is a finalize method the best way to "destruct" a class and do final cleanup? 16:53:21 Xach: If I understand it, if you don't care what or how many keys a method has, use &rest, but if the method should always have specific keys and maybe more, use &key and &allow-other-keys. If the method should *only* have certain keys, only use &key? 16:53:22 Biglooooo 16:53:36 Shamwow: no 16:53:37 minion: tell shamwow about with 16:53:37 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``with''. 16:53:45 what, no WITH entry? 16:54:11 Minion is pretty damn intelligent, does it have a project up on CL.net? :o 16:54:30 I suppose hyperspec will answer the 'with' question 16:54:34 Intertricity: yes: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc/ 16:54:45 8D thanks 16:55:36 Shamwow: usually, you provide a macro similar to with-open-file that takes care of the vast majority of uses. For the rest, it's hard to do much better than create/destroy + finalizer. 16:56:26 My copy of Jurafsky & Martin arrived! 16:56:32 pkhuong: a macro something like with-make-instance ? 16:56:39 Too bad the errata for this edition appears to no longer be available. :-/ 16:56:39 nyef: wozzat? 16:56:55 Grue` [n=grue@masq.snto-msu.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:14 Adamant: "Speech and Language Processing: An Introduction to Natural Language Processing, Computational Linguistics, and Speech Recognition". 16:57:31 Man, it is hard to find info about the WITH pattern/macro 16:58:00 sellout: Hyperspec hasn't helped me on it 16:58:09 Shamwow: more like (with-foo (var initargs...) body...) to wrap (let ((temp (make-instance 'foo initargs...))) (unwind-protect (let ((var temp)) body...) (destroy temp))) 16:58:33 So is there any way to access a CLR library via common lisp? There's a library I'd like to use but it's written in C# 16:58:52 I only need to use a few functions out of it, nothing complex 16:58:55 minion: Tell Intertricity about RDNZL 16:58:56 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``RDNZL''. 16:58:58 Err... 16:59:00 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [] 16:59:03 minion: RDZNL? 16:59:04 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``RDZNL''. 16:59:07 minion: what's wrong? 16:59:08 maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot 16:59:08 Something like that. 16:59:10 Intertricity, for .NET stuff, see RDNZL from http://weitz.de 16:59:20 Maybe there's no cliki page for it? 16:59:22 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:31 pkhuong: I see. thanks for the tip! 16:59:46 there's a page on Edi's site, for sure. 16:59:55 But Edi's site isn't cliki. 17:00:01 true 17:00:30 Does minion not support ... 17:00:39 minion: RDNZL is http://weitz.de/rdnzl/ 17:00:40 i agree - rdnzl is httpweitz derdnzl 17:00:47 pff 17:00:50 minion: rdnzl 17:00:51 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``rdnzl''. 17:00:53 minion: RDNZL is: http://weitz.de/rdnzl/ 17:00:53 i don't agree - rdnzl isn't httpweitz derdnzl 17:00:55 It does, but the syntax is a bit different. 17:01:01 minion: add RDNZL as: http://weitz.de/rdnzl/ 17:01:02 OK, done. 17:01:03 minion: help on adding? 17:01:04 Adlai, nyef oh wow 17:01:08 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:01:09 minion, RDNZL? 17:01:10 RDNZL: http://weitz.de/rdnzl/ 17:01:17 ah, much better. 17:01:30 Now to find someone's blog post on WITH 17:01:34 Is RDNZL mature enough to use? 17:01:53 so I remember there used to be a variable in Hunchentoot that would cause it to pop up a lisp error instead of handling it internally, but I can't find it right now 17:01:58 It looks like it's complete o.o 17:02:15 Intertricity: In general, Edi's stuff is really solid. I haven't used RDNZL, though. 17:02:19 Intertricity, it's "Ediware", thus it's made of manna from heaven. 17:03:02 Adlai, ahahaha 17:03:15 thanks guys :) I think this'll get me where I was with my python stuff 17:03:18 Grue`: *show-lisp-errors-p* ? 17:03:26 Which is closely related to being comprised of pure, concentrated awesome. 17:04:16 rullie: well, that one doesn't show anything. I'm just getting Bad Request 17:04:29 Intertricity, Edi's libraries include the de-facto HTTP client and the de-facto regexp library, along with the gajillion other libraries on his site. 17:04:34 I think it may have been *break-on-signals*, which is in CLHS actually 17:04:59 Adlai: the de facto HTTP server also. 17:06:31 pkhuong, I didn't get the impression that Hunchentoot is as well-established as Drakma or CL-PPCRE, but I've never run a CL webserver so my opinion isn't that relevant on this one 17:07:30 The de facto answer used to be araneida 17:07:36 minion: with macro 17:07:37 with macro: WITH, the 'Bastard Son Of Loop', is a general binding construct allowing simple, special variable, destructuring, multiple-value, flet, labels, and with-open-file bindings in the same form without multiple indendation levels. http://www.cliki.net/with%20macro 17:07:37 I think it's firmly hunchentoot 17:07:44 Adlai: what else do you see in use? 17:07:46 (now) 17:07:46 damn you minion! 17:07:54 sellout: yeah, not the right with (: 17:08:23 pkhuong, aren't there a few other webservers? WUI or weblocks or something? 17:08:34 seriously, though, don't ask me about this. I'm clueless. 17:08:47 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:58 oh no, WITH link is on geocities.com! 17:09:01 Adlai: some of those are layers atop hunchentoot 17:09:06 which is down 17:09:22 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:28 Grue`: It's ok, use BIND instead. 17:10:04 htooth is not a serious player when it comes to 50+ concurrent requests 17:10:07 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 17:10:37 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:10:42 "de facto it's a regex library, but de jure it's not"? 17:11:09 I think back when araneida was a contender at all, the de facto standard was still aserve. 17:11:27 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:46 that predates my life in lisp 17:11:56 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:27 hello, I'm having a small problem with hunchentoot: when I call (hunchentoot:stop (hunchentoot-connector-server connector)) I've to manually kill the thread, why ? 17:12:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:13:07 impossible. #lisp has existed forever, and Xach has always been on it! 17:13:48 we have always been at war with schemasia! 17:14:49 MostafaSheshtawy [n=chatzill@196.221.149.28] has joined #lisp 17:15:01 kiuma: I think that was a topic of discussion on the hunchentoot list recently. 17:16:39 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:16:51 Xach, I've seen :) , I was putting my hands on claw again to make it work with hunchentoot-1.x 17:17:15 I've then discovered that I'm not able to stop it :) 17:17:22 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-228-81.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:17:22 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:22:46 so should I take hunchentoot from svn ? 17:23:30 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:24:54 Funny.. I'm having some trouble installing things. Googling turns out I'm almost 100% replicating the story in the thread "A tale of the great fuckage of lisp".. :-/ 17:24:59 Does Alex Plotnick ever show up here, or is the best way to get in touch with him via email? 17:25:22 hi nyef 17:25:27 Hello frodef. 17:25:37 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:25:38 frodef: never before have more people been interested in making it easier for you! 17:25:52 there's a new library distribution thing on github 17:25:53 frodef: although perhaps never before have more people been really slow (or failing) at it 17:25:55 frodef: Try out clbuild 17:25:57 there's also been more work on asdf-install 17:26:00 and there's already clbuild 17:26:07 frodef: a lot of use use clbuild :) 17:27:25 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:28:00 clbuild is a shell-script, isn't it? 17:28:04 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 17:28:12 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:28:21 so? 17:28:35 I think it has much more serious problems than "it's a shell script" 17:28:39 sykopomp: just so I understand.. 17:28:57 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 17:29:16 frodef: It's shell scripts with some lisp bits 17:30:22 I'm using the asdf-install that comes with sbcl that comes with the new ubuntu. How would I go about updating asdf-install? 17:30:28 Xach, thanks hunchentoot stopping works now :) 17:30:49 billitch [n=billitch@82.113.121.196] has joined #lisp 17:31:03 frodef: (load "/path/to/new/asdf-install.lisp")? 17:31:04 :P 17:31:15 sykopomp: you're full of helpful information today. 17:31:49 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-95.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 17:32:06 frodef: sbcl asdf-install hasn't changed in a long, long time. what trouble are you having? 17:32:11 Xach: well, he wants solutions his way or the high way? 17:32:20 highway* 17:32:28 -!- ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.161] has left #lisp 17:32:37 sykopomp: Stop projecting. 17:32:44 sorry 17:34:18 *froydnj* looks at "the future of SBCL" roadmap on his desk, looks at email, looks back at desk... 17:36:09 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:10 I'm about halfway down the "fuckage" list, at the with-timeout symbol conflict. I'll be able to solve it, but I thought I was doing the most standard install possible and having all these issues, I must be doing something wrokng. 17:36:38 If you're using asdf-install, that would be an obvious wrongness. 17:36:53 frodef: ah, gotcha. i don't think i saw the fuckage thing when it first came around. 17:37:08 Well I guess you should really give clbuild a try. It's the thing that gets most maintainance right now, and it's from lichtblau 17:37:22 ok, I'll try clbuild. 17:37:51 the "sbcl future" posting is cute 17:37:54 I think I tried it (probably years ago) and was unimpressed, which is why I skipped it before. 17:38:15 Yeah I didn't try it, too, for a long time, but I tried it on my new work place last week 17:38:38 and it's quite nice. Only thing that is missing is parallel download 17:39:05 frodef: For what it's worth, I've had some luck when a package doesn't asdf-install properly by emailing the author and telling them about it. 17:39:14 (Haskell's cabal system is also very very nice) 17:39:23 frodef: I think sometimes people just assume it is now and will forever be broken... 17:40:15 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:26 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-228-81.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:43:47 tcr: I tend to think of it as lukegoware 17:43:48 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:34 *tcr* loves how Xof's sb-sequence:make-sequence-like just signals an error "foo" 17:46:26 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-199-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:46:30 It does make me slightly uneasy that the lisp sw doesn't work and what's supposed to work is a shell-script :) 17:46:31 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:36 that reminds me of my love for streams described by "a constant string" 17:46:58 froydnj: really? Or is that irony? 17:47:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:33 Xof: I do have a list of things I want to do...but they don't really define a roadmap. 17:49:30 I have vague 5-10-year-from-now wishes too (: 17:51:42 "be paid for this"? 17:51:51 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 17:51:57 not even. 17:52:05 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:52:10 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:52:16 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 17:52:30 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:52 that'd be nice 17:54:58 or even "not have non-contributing users whining about lack of roadmaps" 17:55:10 mind you, I suppose one answer is "come to SBCL10 and draw your own roadmap" 17:55:33 *froydnj* looks around for a plane ticket 17:57:06 Xach: speaking of which, could I ask you to put sbcl10 (December 14/15) on your calendar? 17:57:52 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:01:23 rm200910_ [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:01:33 -!- MostafaSheshtawy [n=chatzill@196.221.149.28] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:02:56 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:25 Uhm, so NIL is allowed for :key, but not for :test 18:06:42 no that statement was wrong 18:06:51 clhs 17.2.1 18:06:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm 18:06:52 I'm a bit rusty, in CLOS is there an init method for a class when I call make-instance ? 18:07:03 or should I use MOP ? 18:07:07 clhs initialize-instance 18:07:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm 18:07:16 Adlai, thanks 18:08:42 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-133-145-111.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:08:54 thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has joined #lisp 18:09:07 manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6D7AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:25 ok, well, if someone finds a roadmap, let me know 18:09:51 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:12:40 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-164-111.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 18:12:45 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 18:16:00 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Success] 18:17:01 great, clbuild actually got the job done. 18:17:18 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:20 (loading weblocks and its dependencies.) 18:19:28 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:19:45 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-5cd5f3baee374228] has joined #lisp 18:20:22 Xof: sure! 18:20:41 Xof: what's the best URL to get more info about the event? 18:20:49 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:55 *tcr* wonders why it's ~:[alternative~;consequent~] and not the other way around (along with flipping the arg) 18:22:03 ah, sbcl10.sbcl.org seems likely 18:23:46 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:24:15 tcr, the first thing that comes to mind is the increasing order -- 0, 1, 2.., nil, t... 18:24:23 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:24:31 rlb3 [n=robert@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:32 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:24:45 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:10 rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:59 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 18:26:40 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:26:49 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:28 -!- b3nt_pin [n=brent@stjhnf0140w-142162064055.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:29 Joreji_ [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:28:34 -!- aja [n=aja@68.151.58.116] has quit [Client Quit] 18:28:54 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:48 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:30 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:36:51 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:37:57 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:23 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:46 uhm asdf is not able to recompile if a system dependency has changed? 18:43:18 It does only track system-local changes, yes. 18:46:21 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-247.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:46:34 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:02 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:48:15 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:48:38 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:50:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 18:50:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:52:46 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.204.211] has joined #lisp 18:53:03 nyquist, I hoplessly tried to use asdf-install on windows, followed instructions on link you gave, and I have an error what confuses me 18:53:10 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BEB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:56 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.204.211] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:54:42 when I see a line in backtrace of sbcl debug wich ends with [:external] what does it means? 18:56:01 since line mentioned in backtrace (copy-list echo) doesn't exist in asdf-code 18:56:11 *asdf-install code 18:58:32 BatWing [i=86c15ee3@gateway/web/freenode/x-d7ac8a81091f684b] has joined #lisp 18:58:34 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:58:38 OK ... stupid question time 18:58:47 postmodern is giving me different data formats (# or 3439756800) for dates depending on whether the code is compiled or not ...any ideas on what might cause this? 18:59:03 i am asking a quesiton here that I don't know if I'm educated enough to understand the answer so please bear with me 18:59:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:10 OK to develop a computer system that will run lisp, you have to get an assembly compiler for C, then get a minimalist lisp compiler from that, and get a full featured lisp compiler from that right? 19:00:27 Harag: I think the mailing list will help when what's-his-name sees your message. 19:00:43 BatWing: not necessarily 19:00:46 has anyone ever gone directly from assembly to lisp? 19:00:50 BatWing: frodef here skipped the C part 19:01:02 i'm googling around about this just out of pure curiosity 19:01:05 oh rly 19:01:05 "c is an assembler" 19:01:14 BatWing: see http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/movitz.html 19:01:51 Wow ... that is really cool 19:02:03 Xach: yeah they most probably will but in the mean time its kind of a show stopper...so I asked here as well just in case some one else has had this problem or can guess at its cause so I can go hunting in the code 19:03:09 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:08 BatWing: some implementations only use C to talk to the rest of the world. 19:04:46 pkhuong, then apparently some of what i've been reading online must be out-dated or innaccurate 19:05:23 nyquist` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:05:38 BatWing: lots of information about lisp could be described that way. 19:06:19 Hm, can RDNZL run on linux? 19:06:31 as for myself, I'm not so interested in going so deep down 19:06:36 Intertricity: not yet, afaik 19:06:39 just a little interested 19:06:49 p_l, damn, any plans to get it on linux? 19:06:50 Intertricity: afaik it uses Managed C++ which isn't supported 19:06:56 d'oh 19:06:56 shouldn't it be possible to re-implmement the linux kernel in lisp? 19:06:57 -!- ibnby2 [n=ibnby@f049119071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:59 BatWing: if one is stuck on a desert island with a laptop and a neverending supply of batteries then yes, one would typically build a sequence of increasingly more complex compiler (and/or interpreters). The prior is rather unlikely htough. 19:07:18 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:07:21 BatWing: not a greatest idea, I'd say 19:07:48 p_1, but possible? 19:07:51 pkhuong, I'd build myself a 3D girlfriend 19:07:59 Intertricity: however it doesn't mean it's impossible to create equivalent - both MS CLR and Mono have ways to get embedded into another app 19:08:27 BatWing: possible, it's just that if you are going to use higher level language then it doesn't make sense not to use more advanced interfaces... 19:08:59 i wouldn't consider reimplementing linux in C as a great idea, too 19:09:29 p_1, not sure i understand your point 19:09:29 or Unix at all 19:09:36 ah 19:09:42 ok that makes sense 19:10:10 now, something like Sun's Spring... :) 19:10:30 stassats, I thought linux was already in C and asm? 19:10:40 you're saying, if one is going to go so far as to develop a kernel in lisp, it would make more sense to write one's own kernel 19:11:05 Intertricity: it is, but do you want to implement all that _again_? 19:11:10 and not try to mimick what you see as bad design decisions made in developing the linux kernel? bad, meaning non-optimal? 19:11:23 stassats, I'm only half following the convo and reading stuff online, my bad :) 19:11:33 I just caught that one line 19:11:51 BatWing: Maybe not bad design all over, but different languages change what is "optimal" design sometimes :) 19:12:12 i am so totally not going to be writing kernels anytime soon, this is all just curiosity about the world here :) 19:12:21 also, Unix did caught some bad decisions in its lifetime 19:12:31 BatWing: in general, if the question is "can you do X in Lisp?" the answer is "yes" 19:13:04 it just doesn't mean that it's a good idea ;) 19:13:20 p_1, when is it a bad idea? 19:13:24 er wait 19:13:49 I mean, why would making the fundamental basis of your stack after assembly be lisp all the way be bad? 19:14:06 it'd be great! 19:14:09 er, Why would making the fundamental basis of your stack after assembly be lisp all the way be not a good idea? 19:14:18 de_fault [n=de_fault@88.238.221.135] has joined #lisp 19:14:35 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:07 it would seem that the ideal development OS would be assembly, then lisp, then lisp lisp lisp... 19:15:15 BatWing: why? 19:15:43 BatWing: I meant the reimplementing part 19:15:47 oh snap, ccl gone havoc with my data unsaved 19:16:05 BatWing: After all, there were quite a few OSes done at least partially in Lisp 19:16:08 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 19:16:51 stassats: Using the CCL IDE? 19:16:52 p_1, I think my quesiton is, imagine all computer files in the entire world were erased forever, and we had to build all our software again from scratch 19:17:01 sellout: no, from slime 19:17:08 Ah 19:17:13 Would there be an advantage to not doing everything to do with the OS in lisp? 19:17:22 it's not dead, but i can't stop it printing backtraces like mad in the inferior buffer 19:18:11 BatWing: ... I think I'll start with Forth ^^; 19:18:15 sigkill the ccl process? 19:18:37 Hmm, registering a mailing list for a launchpad team takes a while.. 19:18:38 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-37.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:18:43 BatWing: How meaningful do you think an answer to that question is? 19:18:53 tcr: well, i don't want to kill it 19:19:07 try sigint :) 19:19:10 tcr, i dunno, just trying to get a better understanding of the relevant issues 19:19:22 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:24 BatWing: Of which issues? 19:19:34 issues about what? 19:19:43 tcr, how computers actually work 19:19:56 Haplo__ [n=hatchond@cau33-1-82-66-14-55.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:57 BatWing: that is a good thing to understand 19:20:00 like, I was watching a video on the Google Wave algorithms 19:20:12 it was describing what happens when you type a letter 19:20:19 How do you think that question helps your understanding of that question? 19:20:19 and it shows up on the other person's screen 19:20:38 does anyone tried ogre 3d bindings named okra 19:20:47 and I was sitting there thinking, "How many layers does that piece of information go through to get to the other person's eyes" 19:20:50 ? 19:21:17 42 19:21:20 de_fault: aerique has 19:21:40 the whole lecture was predicated on the idea that both users have got so many millions of lines of code separating them from one anohter 19:21:48 and we're just going to assume that all that works 19:22:11 envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 19:22:28 Xach: he is the author of library i guess 19:22:38 hi, would I have to use MOP for this? (defclass foo () ((bar :initform 'baz :my-defined-attribute 'something))) 19:22:49 it kind of gave me an idea: why not cut out some of the dead wood in there? 19:22:51 de_fault: yes 19:22:58 egn: yes 19:23:25 BatWing: Financial and time resources? 19:23:31 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6D7AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:23:50 tcr, no i meant in terms of number of systems that all need to be working to make something like Google Wave happen 19:23:58 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 19:24:15 BatWing: a lisp kernel would be interesting for lisp people, but it would amount to such a duplication of effort, I don't know how it could be justified except as an intellectual excercise. Also, check out movitz. 19:24:27 Xach: thanks 19:24:33 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@207.54.160.73] has quit ["http://twitter.com/thoolihan"] 19:24:45 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:23 Fade, well if one is going to build a whole new kernel anyway ... 19:25:31 -!- rm200910_ [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:26:02 sigint doesn't help 19:26:06 movitz is something of a kernel construction kit with various caveats. 19:26:08 Anyways, so i was thinking, there are some OS's out there that have the whole OS contained in the motherboard firmware 19:27:42 why not put an OS with a GUI that lets you surf the web in the firmware, which you can then instruct to load a full OS only if you need to 19:27:47 the last time I looked at movitz it would boot an i386 computer running in a machine emulator. 19:27:58 BatWing: Why not shut the fuck up? 19:28:11 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:28:14 tcr, sorry, didn't mean to annoy people 19:28:39 That answer was not really meant to be insulting but actually contained an answer to your question :) 19:29:03 tcr, oh, you mean, "go build it" ? 19:29:28 it's probably already been built someplace 19:29:46 I think you talk more than you listen. :) 19:30:09 minion: movitz 19:30:10 movitz: Movitz is a Common Lisp implementation that targets the x86 PC architecture "on-the-metal". http://www.cliki.net/movitz 19:30:19 Fade, yeah movits might be exactly what i'm looking for, somebody recommended it earlier 19:30:40 as ridiculous as the idea of a lisp os kernel is these days, I notice that my webservers are increasingly built to only talk HTTP on one set of sockets and an RDBMS protocol on the other side, with disk access only for a small number of read-only files. 19:30:44 And it's already running in a VM. 19:31:05 So if, say, nyef's sbcl os had threads and I/O multiplexing, it would already be good enough to run this kind of server. 19:31:21 BatWing: You put your questions with inane assumptions that make the questions meaningless. We could also talk about why the world isn't full of good people. 19:31:27 sure. that's an extremely narrow use case, so the req is easy to fill. 19:31:39 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 19:32:00 tcr, ah, well if you could help me identify why I am asking the wrong questions, that would be as good as answers 19:32:19 more thinking, less talking 19:32:20 :) 19:32:27 BatWing: Imagination does not help if it's not attached to reality 19:32:37 BatWing: have you read through all the information in the movitz site? 19:32:45 been looking at it 19:32:46 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:50 I have line in my Backtrace which says: 0: (COPY-LIST ASDF-INSTALL::ECHO)[:EXTERNAL] What does that :external mean? 19:32:53 looking and reading are not the same thing. 19:32:55 movitz doesn't run the full CL feature set? 19:33:13 BatWing: read. 19:33:30 you can ask the next question in 20 minutes 19:33:40 -!- Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:34:17 Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has joined #lisp 19:34:51 -!- de_fault [n=de_fault@88.238.221.135] has left #lisp 19:38:17 The requested URL /project/movitz/files/los0.img was not found on this server 19:38:35 movitz's web site doesn't work heh 19:39:32 -!- devD_ [n=devD@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:40:55 lichtblau: and a network stack 19:42:17 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:44:56 mstevens [n=mstevens@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 19:44:57 ntd [n=user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has joined #lisp 19:45:02 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.58.53] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:13 amaron: it tells you the "type of function" the frame is from (in this case a regular function). 19:45:31 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:45 pkhuong, I don't get it, there is no such line in source code 19:46:59 amaron: there's a call to copy-list somewhere. 19:50:53 pkhuong, there is, but it doesn't use 'echo' as argument, it complains about that echo 19:51:04 -!- envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:38 amaron: you must be right. 19:52:10 what are reasons for #? 19:52:32 tcr: optimised away, usually. 19:52:59 pkhuong, it's not about being right, it's about making something to work, and I need help; thanks anyway 19:53:08 in a function call? 19:54:14 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.219] has joined #lisp 19:54:43 How can you optimize away a parameter? 19:55:43 tcr: by seeing that it's useless, when the error pops up. 19:56:00 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:56:04 Without (debug 3), unused bindings still get deleted. 19:56:09 "If someone tells you Lisp is only interpreted, that it's slow, or that you have to use recursion for everything, ask them what dialect of Lisp they're talking about and whether people were wearing bell-bottoms when they learned it." - Practical Common Lisp 19:56:27 I'd always been told lisp was slow lol :) 19:56:29 pkhuong: Because the code path that lead to the error does not use the binding? 19:56:38 by ppl who probably were 19:56:58 for instance. 19:57:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-20.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:58:06 hello 19:58:49 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F337.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:40 -!- rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:01:52 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:02:57 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:09:16 fe[nl]ix, ave 20:09:24 fe[nl]ix, so what's with iolib and xcvb? 20:09:53 hm looks like SYMBOL-VALUE cannot see lexical variables 20:10:12 clhs symbol-value 20:10:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm 20:10:16 how do I access lexical variables at run-time then ? 20:10:32 same for boundp 20:10:37 You can't, they may not even exist at run-time 20:10:41 -!- Regenaxer [n=baldur@pd9568a7a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Sayonara"] 20:10:53 oh I see your point 20:11:02 it's only compile time ? 20:11:13 What are you trying to do? Perhaps we can help you doing it in some other way 20:11:27 I am trying to test a reader macro with 5am 20:11:43 and I'm forced into doing stupid stuff to make it work 20:11:49 What does the reader macro do? 20:12:36 it parses a uri-template like #U/foo/{bar} 20:13:16 What does the reader macro return? A sexp, a structured datum? 20:13:36 In general you test reader-macros by using READ-FROM-STRING and checking the expansion of the reader-macro 20:13:46 it returns the sexp that I want to test 20:13:56 that's what I do 20:14:06 but actually i think this works now 20:14:17 Ok so you do not actually need to test the reader-macro, but you want to test the functional bits that your reader macro expands to 20:14:22 the only problem is that the returned sexp needs to use a lexical variable 20:14:29 and must not fail if not defined 20:14:42 why does it have to use a lexical variable? 20:15:14 because the variable is defined outside the macro, that's the whole point of a uri-template 20:15:27 but 20:15:44 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 20:15:47 So you have a reader-macro that can only be correctly used in a particular lexical context? 20:15:48 a lexical variable is pretty much always bound, isn't it? 20:16:12 uh maybe i dont understand sth else : why does (let ((foo 'bar)) (boundp 'foo)) returns false ? 20:16:22 s/false/nil 20:16:37 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:16:46 billitch, because boundp only queries global/special bindings 20:17:02 billitch, a lexical binding is bound by construction everywhere it's visible. 20:17:22 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:32 you can't unbind a lexical, and it's never in scope unless it's already been bound. 20:17:40 "bind me, I'm a free variable!" 20:17:50 (When you introduce a lexical variable without specifying a value it defaults to NIL, not unbound. 20:18:11 Fare: thanks, thats very clear 20:18:17 but in my macro i dont know if the lexical binding was defined 20:18:34 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:18:36 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:06 i guess i could handle the unbound condition though.. 20:19:08 *stassats* wasn't able to rescue data from ccl :( 20:19:47 stassats: Your data was in Emacs, though, right? 20:20:34 when i wanted to save slime's repl buffer, i hung emacs too 20:21:35 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 20:22:48 stassats: grep /dev/mem ? 20:23:55 billitch: i'll produce my data again faster than i'll learn how ccl works 20:24:10 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.21.49] has joined #lisp 20:24:13 Ok, I wish dherring was here more often. 20:25:35 -!- BatWing [i=86c15ee3@gateway/web/freenode/x-d7ac8a81091f684b] has quit [] 20:26:01 does SLIME use a different *readtable* when compiling a file or function? 20:26:17 Possibly 20:26:20 I get different readtables in SLIME REPL and when compiling a file 20:26:21 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 20:26:36 it uses different threads 20:27:26 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:29 Grue`: http://common-lisp.net/project/editor-hints/darcs/named-readtables/doc/named-readtables.html 20:28:12 I just need to load a file that uses CLSQL syntax and nothing works whatsoever 20:28:48 I wrote named-readtables so it'll just work 20:29:02 or #.(enable-clsql-syntax) or whatever it is. 20:30:20 I tried that, and eval-when, and so on. it still uses the default readtable 20:31:29 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-51-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:12 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:36:37 finally worked after #.(setf clsql-sys::*original-readtable* nil) 20:37:11 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 20:38:42 -!- mrSpec is now known as magda1987 20:39:07 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590f8ce7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:32 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:32 what does the green highlight on a frame in SLDB mean? 20:43:44 it's restartable 20:44:01 oh cool 20:44:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 20:44:37 did you just update your checkout? 20:46:28 no 20:46:32 using debian unstable 20:46:53 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:47:09 well I'd suggest to update then :) 20:48:01 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229114136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:48:05 bah 20:48:24 is there something broken with the frame restarts? 20:48:54 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:49:04 not that I know of 20:49:15 Hello 20:49:27 nyef: got your mail, haven't got the opportunity to try 20:49:41 ok 20:49:53 Fare: Fair enough. I just finished reading chapter three, and am looking at parts of chapter four now. 20:50:00 well, not suffering any other b0rkedness so I'm fine now :P 20:50:18 isn't chapter 4 just unfinished bullshit? 20:50:36 If it is, I haven't gotten to the unfinished bit. 20:50:51 -!- magda1987 is now known as ble 20:50:54 -!- ble is now known as mrSpec 20:50:58 Besides, "there has to be a pony in here somewhere". 20:51:04 my b0rkedness right now is that I need (setf s-v-u-c) to get the s-v, but notthe s-v that s-v-u-c will return, but rather the one that the standard method for s-v-u-c will return 20:51:16 a pony? where? 20:51:26 nyef: you bought me a pony for Christmas? 20:51:40 rahul: Umm... No. 20:51:57 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 20:51:59 *Fare* sings his "and a pony" song 20:52:26 nyef: can you at least give me an implementation of slot-formulator-using-class, then? 20:52:55 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 20:53:39 Fare: So, I was thinking that, for a system supporting arbitrary invariants, the OPEN function would have to take an invariant-tracking object (lock or otherwise) for a roll-forward-only cleanup in order to make sure that an asynchronous unwind can't lose the file descriptor before the caller has it safely stashed away. 20:53:45 once I have that, I think it will all work... 20:54:11 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:54:14 but I need to find a way to bypass my overriding of s-v-u-c... I guess a special variable... 20:54:51 rahul: Oh, just change-class, call s-v-u-c, and change-class back. Problem solved. 20:55:31 Alternately, can't you call s-v-u-c and pass (class-superclass class)? 20:55:57 I guess that latter only really works if you're not using multiple inheritance... 20:57:55 nyef: and/or it is itself built on a top of a transactional filesystem interface that will roll back if things go wrong. 20:58:47 Which is horribly unlikely on any modern host platform, given such things as named pipes. 20:58:54 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:59:19 And you still have to track the file descriptor. 21:00:34 sure 21:00:56 I'm just saying that your open could itself be layered on top of more abstraction between it and the kernel. 21:01:11 (as usual beware if the abstraction leaks) 21:01:12 You end up saying "okay, you can roll this back, but there's this period between points A and B where the only thing you can do is roll forward, but once you get to B then you can use the cleanup for rolling back", which is fine. 21:01:16 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 21:01:41 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [] 21:01:54 yes, so "at one level of abstraction, you can only roll forward, but at another you can rollback" 21:02:02 Right. 21:02:25 legumbre [n=user@r190-133-150-51.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:02:26 or the PCLSRing meta-protocol doesn't have to care which levels rolls forward or back 21:02:42 as long as each level indeeds can stabilize to the required invariant 21:02:53 Well, I figured that was a given, actually. 21:03:04 Using ASDF, how do I execute an initialization function in package foo after load-op of the system foo? 21:03:27 The equivalent in an old defsystem file is finally-do 21:03:45 Since my use-cases are "make this be GC-safe", "make this be async-interrupt-safe", and "make this be async-unwind-safe". 21:03:48 -!- billitch [n=billitch@82.113.121.196] has quit [] 21:04:09 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-199-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:22 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-199-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:52 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-199-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:53 tmh: you can put an :after method on perform load-op 21:05:25 There's also the question of what to do about error-handling and the debugger, and the question of general asynchronous interrupts. 21:05:59 tmh pasted "Rahul: Tried that like this, what am I doing wrong." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89793 21:07:27 Fare: Oh! And did you see the discussion a couple days ago about post-fork lisp thread resurrection? 21:07:44 tmh: asdf: in front of perform and load-op maybe? 21:08:07 tmh: and (eql (asdf:find-system :weyl)) 21:08:34 rahul: I think the find-system observation is relevant, thanks. 21:08:44 yeah, I'd try that first :) 21:09:07 I'm surpised you didn't get an unbound variable warning 21:09:08 (It was started by the SBCL bug filed about *all-threads* not being correct post-fork, but got a little out-of-hand.) 21:09:17 actually, error at that point 21:10:41 nyef: where? 21:11:12 rahul: Is perform :after generally equivalent to :finally-do ? 21:11:28 tmh: yes 21:11:35 would it be simpler if cleanup handlers could be performed by arbitrary threads? 21:11:46 tmh: except it's more descriptive, of course, since you're saying do after what specifically :) 21:12:04 rahul: Ok, thanks. 21:12:12 Fare: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/451111 and parts of http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2009-11/lisp-2009.11.02.txt 21:12:18 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.156.253.50] has joined #lisp 21:13:21 Fare: Basically, if you gc_stop_the_world as a pre-fork action you have access to the register states of the dead threads and can attempt to resurrect them from there. 21:13:51 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:16 nvoorhies__ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:40 Oh, and I managed to get GC to not die in the child post-fork, but that was a bit of a hack. 21:14:47 well, lnostdal, congratulations: your bug has made my brain hurt more than it already did 21:15:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:17 -!- nvoorhies__ is now known as nvoorhies 21:15:24 Sikander: I think the offset into C arrays is part of the "slicing" as I (and others) conceived it. For better or worse, the layer that GSLL builds over foreign/GSL arrays makes necessary to give some thought to doing in-place array segments (slices, or whatever you want to call them) which you don't have to do in C because you would just set a pointer. 21:16:27 pkhuong: you understand pv optimization, don't you? (Picking on you because nikodemus isn't here) 21:16:57 Krystof, lol .. yes, that thing really had me for a spin .. x) .. i'm now doing various interesting acrobatics to try to dodge it :) 21:17:14 Krystof: I don't think so. 21:17:17 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:18:10 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:29 lnostdal: if what you sent me is representative of what you actually want to do, you might be able to get round it by using clos-slots-ref within slot-value-using-class 21:20:04 nyef, sounds reasonable as long as you don't also have C threads. 21:20:16 (which makes sense, I think, given that you run all sorts of risks implementing slot-value in terms of slot-value) 21:20:24 s/clos-slots-ref/standard-instance-access/ if you prefer 21:20:45 wait, GC in SBCL would otherwise die post-fork? 21:20:57 trying to stop threads that don't exist? 21:21:05 pkhuong: ah, but do you understand get-secondary-dispatch-function? 21:21:36 hum, if you spawn threads after you fork, I hope it gets the tid of the new initial thread correct 21:21:46 instead of remembering the tid of the parent 21:23:05 jlpeters [n=james@97-113-33-80.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:46 Fare: Yeah, C threads would still die. And, yes, it dies trying to stop destroyed threads. 21:25:30 oh crap 21:25:45 I think SB-PCL's optimization is bypassing my s-v-u-c override... 21:26:10 I have a defun called MY that is inline and calls slot-value 21:26:34 a function does (my 'foo)... the compiled code has # does that directly go to instance access? I don't think it can infer the type,tho... 21:27:31 gtg 21:27:35 have a good one! 21:27:36 does anybody here use CLSQL on CCL? 21:27:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:27:59 *Fare* noticed that the POIU backend to XCVB had bitrotten. XCVB is big enough to need its own test suite... 21:28:13 rahul: you must define all methods applicable to instances of metaobject classes before instantiating those metaobject classes 21:28:23 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:28:28 hmm 21:28:36 I think I do that... 21:29:32 lnostdal: this is relevant to your problem, too: your code is formally not legal metaobject code, because you instantiate my-class (in my-object) before you define your svuc method 21:30:08 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has joined #lisp 21:30:26 ziga` [n=user@89.142.58.53] has joined #lisp 21:30:57 Krystof, yeah, my comment about deleted code and stuff was off .. i'm not sure i can go for stand-in-acc since i have a custom (setf svuc) also .. actually, i have many; the (setf svuc) does call-next-method .. and, stuff .. heh 21:31:01 -!- jlpeters [n=james@97-113-33-80.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [] 21:31:04 nobody seems to respond to my mcclim-devel mail :( 21:31:19 people have lives :( 21:31:37 lnostdal: ok, then, stop specializing on MY-OBJECT in your svuc methods 21:31:41 ziga`: I'll respond eventually. I am just a bit overworked with my dayjob, which tends to spill over to evenings. 21:31:45 jlpeters [n=james@97-113-33-80.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:53 -!- jlpeters [n=james@97-113-33-80.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:01 mstevens [n=mstevens@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 21:32:06 ok, I must have screwed that bit up long ago 21:32:27 Krystof: it doesn't clear out those optimizations after redefining the code? 21:32:36 or at least reset them 21:33:13 A circle with radius 1 has perimeter 6.283185307179586d0 and area 3.141592653589793d0 21:33:16 yeeehaw 21:33:26 *rahul* checks in before breaking more code 21:33:47 beach: thanks 21:33:51 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:36 ziga`: For theming, I would probably create an indirection, i.e., draw function would call theme-draw which dispatches on a theme. 21:34:37 Krystof, ohyeah, that works .. no more acrobatics, then .. .. :) 21:34:59 Krystof: not really. I've spent hours trying to reverse engineer that. 21:35:28 lnostdal: I think we should be able to support defining some things in the other order, but if you can rework your stuff to be canonically legal then I will treat it as a lower-priority thing 21:35:31 ziga`: We welcome new gadgets. They won't end up in the CLIM package, but they are welcome nevertheless. 21:35:31 beach: you mean handle-repaint function? 21:36:11 I think I shall call this formulate 0.1 21:36:23 ziga`: I suppose. I don't remember where the code for drawing things is located. It could (unfortunately) be scattered all over. 21:36:31 "Portable methods on specified generic functions specialized to portable metaobject classes must be defined before any instances of those classes (or any subclasses) are created, either directly or indirectly by a call to make-instance." 21:36:33 ziga`: Cleaning that up would be a great service. 21:36:35 beach: aha great, I've looked into CLIM specification and saw that McCLIM follows it pretty well, so I guess additional stuff falls into 'addons' category rather than changing CLIM compliance 21:36:38 the reign of kenny shall fall 21:37:18 beach: every gadget draws itself with handle-repaint method (as far as push buttons and such goes) 21:37:28 Krystof: it's just upsetting that redefining the metaclass and then re-instantiating the instance will ignore your changes 21:37:28 ziga`: Some violations of the spec could be tolerated, especially since the spec is not that detailed or precise. 21:37:42 well, it will ignore new methods you add 21:38:00 makes interactive development very sucky :( 21:38:05 ziga`: Then, yes, I would make handle-repaint on gadgets call theme-handle-repaint or some such. 21:38:05 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.156.253.50] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:41 beach: ok 21:38:55 Krystof, yeah, bootstrapping this in the right order is tricky .. the find-class causes trouble if things are moved around 21:39:25 i can't think of another way to bootstrap something like this atm. 21:39:33 beach: I was surprised later to see how much can be configured in McCLIM so many things require just changing an option here and there (like the default font)... so it's great 21:39:41 (find-class 'my-object nil) 21:39:49 beach: any comment on the 'unicode input' part? 21:39:52 rahul: "Portable metaobject classes cannot be redefined. " 21:39:54 ziga`: With respect to fonts, I am not sure what to tell you. What we really need is a font-rendering system that will be anti-aliased and still look great on low resolutions. 21:40:05 oh .. darn .. yeah 21:40:08 hah 21:40:08 ziga`: I am working on it. Be patient. 21:40:16 :) 21:40:52 this certainly works for me now then 21:41:08 ziga`: Please feel free to add your text-field features. I have no problems with them. 21:41:15 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:18 lnostdal: ok, good. 21:41:30 I wish I could convince myself that this never happens if everything is defined in the right order 21:41:47 I would probably have a marvellous proof, if I had a piece of paper huge enough to understand get-secondary-dispatch-function 21:41:54 beach: great 21:42:41 ziga`: Concerning Unicode, there are two totally different problems: input and output. 21:42:44 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:43:04 ziga`: Output works great as long as one uses mcclim-freetype or mcclim-truetype. 21:43:38 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:56 Krystof's last theorem 21:44:16 ziga`: Input is more complicated because it has to do with the C world having moved to some library that handles this better than just raw X11 input (I can't remember the details) and CLX hasn't kept up. I don't know much about this, but other might, like Krystof. 21:44:17 beach: and input is tied to CLX right? 21:44:34 aha 21:45:10 beach: gtkairo backend then doesn't have these problems? 21:45:13 Feel free to catch CLX up, btw. 21:45:18 ziga`: Nothing prevents us from writing a McCLIM-specific module for this, and it might be good to do so, so that we can capture input for specific input methods for instance. 21:45:18 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:45:29 Not so much the C world as the X protocol world 21:45:42 the XKEYBOARD extension is what approximately everyone uses, but CLX doesn't support it 21:45:45 Krystof: My ignorance shows, I know. 21:45:56 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:46:23 so it is 'possible' with a lot of work like all things in the common lisp universe :) 21:46:24 I think that gtkairo allows you to use gtk input methods, but I'm not offering chapter and verse there 21:46:51 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:47:07 ziga`: Right, and if you wanted to take on a chunk of that, I think that would be great. Might require some work, though. 21:47:13 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:48:17 Oh, and one more thing. I have answered questions from ziga` as if I am in total control of McCLIM, but this is of course not the case. If anyone has a different opinion, please say so. 21:48:38 :D 21:48:39 Ok, formulate 0.1 released 21:49:19 bah why did they keep the ordinal number scheme till TENTH, but didn't include +2 21:49:37 fooooooooooooooo [n=levente_@apn-94-44-12-173.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 21:49:39 tcr: 2+* 21:49:59 tcr: because this is LISP not NUMP 21:50:02 :) 21:50:30 I mean think about it: which one is more useful when writing a macro? 21:50:38 what's Nump? 21:50:54 tic: C 21:50:56 and the core library shold be optimized towards letting people write macros 21:50:57 heh 21:51:07 sykopomp: actually, that's a bad NUMP 21:51:11 I'd have thought that DESTRUCTURING-BIND would be the more useful when writing macros. 21:51:12 fortran is mildly better 21:51:17 rahul: How is TENTH useful for writing a macro? 21:51:23 rahul: The first is still the best? 21:51:28 nyef: depends if you want a declarative or procedural interface 21:51:38 sykopomp: until Factor :) 21:51:38 oh, nump. got it. 21:51:51 -!- Shamwow [n=eshamay@richmondlab-cl7.uoregon.edu] has left #lisp 21:52:04 Krystof, i've noticed that (describe 'test-a) reports there being _two_ methods available .. does it somehow generate one method for the "unfinished" class meta object or something? 21:52:07 rahul: I guess if you're a fan of those silly old calculators :) 21:52:11 tcr: maybe you have a horribly pathological list of required parameters in a list 21:52:21 heh 21:52:22 Krystof, (well, at least when i eval the defclass form a couple of times, this happens) 21:52:28 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.148.116] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:52:53 (TEST-A (TEST)) and (TEST-A ((CLASS #))) 21:52:55 sykopomp: what I'm actually trying to say is some language that actually gets integer arithmetic right 21:53:04 ah 21:53:08 sykopomp: but lisp is better than most in that regard too :P 21:53:09 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-6-97.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:53:52 Krystof, this seems to cause trouble when adding/removing methods .. the real-add-metheod / real-remove-method things .. you're probably all over this already .. heh 21:54:18 but perhaps this in turn messes up the low-level cache stuff... 21:55:04 http://common-lisp.net/project/rjain-utils/formulate-0.1.tar.gz if anyone wants to check it out 21:55:33 rahul: what does it do? 21:55:34 or rather to really check it out, it's in project/rjain-utils/cvsroot module formulate 21:55:48 sykopomp: kills kenny 21:56:05 sykopomp: it's like Cells but with a complete OO implementation 21:56:19 and doesn't need his wacky c8 stuff 21:56:39 schoppenhauer [n=christop@host159.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:52 so you reimplemented CLOS? :\ 21:56:57 with cells? 21:57:05 I reimplemented cells with clos, rather 21:57:22 it is implemented in CLOS completely 21:57:36 is there somewhere I can read about this? 21:57:37 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:57:48 so you can subclass the various kinds of nodes to get lazy or eager semantics or throttle propagation or whatever 21:57:52 sykopomp: the code :) 21:58:03 lnostdal: that looks like some unintern damage (or (setf find-class) damage, I don't know) 21:58:04 there's an example file 21:58:05 rahul: I'll take that as a "nah, no documentation anywhere, glhf" 21:58:12 it's pretty rudimentary right now 21:58:27 sykopomp: the examples cover everything that's working right now 21:58:48 any documentation I'd write would include hypothetical features, too :) 21:59:44 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:00:43 rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:47 Krystof, it happens without the unintern stuff going on 22:01:27 hi Krystof 22:01:49 uh, i think .. it used to .. 22:02:26 anyway, it might not matter 22:03:12 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-25-247.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:03 Hi Haplo_! Long time no see 22:04:22 ziga`: There, it's documented. 22:04:26 hi, question regarding clbuild 22:04:48 I installed clbuild and ran ./clbuild check 22:04:53 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:04:54 Krystof: indeed ! Beach fault I suppose ;) 22:05:13 Me? What did I do? 22:05:23 it told me that it couldn't find hg, so I installed that then ran check again, but it's still complaining that it can't find hg 22:05:49 Haplo__: yeah, still no nice cushy professorship for me in Bordeaux 22:06:19 Is there a refresh button? 22:06:39 cvandusen: what happens when you type `hg' at the command line? 22:06:39 Beach: nothing ... that's what I just said 22:07:23 Krystof: would you mind to explain me an error reportes by thesbcl compiler ? 22:07:39 tcr: ah. It aborted, complaining about missing mercurial libs (of which there are many) 22:07:45 Haplo__: Lisp dinner is coming up in the next two weeks. Pascal Costanza is visiting us, and Irene and/or Marie promised to orgaize it. 22:08:24 Beach: hum, got to check my agenda 22:08:35 Haplo__: Taking care of baby? 22:08:48 well, not missing. It couldn't find them... 22:08:50 mikl0 [n=mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:57 Haplo__: I can try 22:09:21 beach: well he's sleeping, so I guess I can say yes ;) 22:09:27 ziga`: Here in Bordeaux, we give a programming course in the 2nd semester. Would you like to try to suggest a project such as "McCLIM Theming"? 22:09:59 Haplo__: Does your agenda say when he'll be asleep in the next two weeks? :) 22:10:21 I have made the awesome 22:10:23 ahah 22:10:43 beach: well, sadly not, but I got a friend visiting us 22:10:55 the thing is I don't remember when 22:11:02 Haplo__: Ah, I see. 22:11:24 Haplo__: And that is someone who could take care of the baby while you go to a Lisp dinner? :) 22:11:35 Krystof: the error is ; (during macroexpansion of (DEFINE-MAKE-EVENT-FUNCTION)) 22:11:35 ; SB-MOP:CLASS-SLOTS called on #, which is not yet finalized. 22:12:08 Haplo__: You probably misspelled the name of a superclass. 22:12:28 (or it could be a package thing) 22:13:15 well, if I remove an eval-when statement around class definition then no error anymore 22:13:47 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 22:14:06 plus a long time ago, I think before 1.0 release, it used to compile without errors 22:14:11 :-s 22:14:48 beach: that lisp dinner, in between the 19th and the 21st ? 22:15:06 LiamH: Ok, so both stride and offset will be part of the slicing functions? Sounds good. Then there should just be an internal way that those arguments are passed from gsll to gsl. 22:15:08 Haplo__: I don't know. 22:15:30 -!- Tordek is now known as Tordek_ 22:15:53 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 22:16:07 Haplo__: Pascal probably leaves before the 20th, so very likely before that. 22:16:25 beach: that should be fine then 22:16:31 Excellent! 22:16:34 Sikander: I'm thinking now that c-pointer should take an optional separate argument. That way our arrays can be "just like C". But, I anticipate someone will want to create a 2D array and then want the FFT to work on it, and providing that kind of translation mechanism is more work. 22:16:42 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-247.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:16:52 Sikander: er, optional second argument, giving the offset. 22:17:12 Krystof: what means the finalization statement ? 22:17:48 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.196.35] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:17:49 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:44 LiamH: Ok, so why not just work on it the way that it is now (if you want, I can do that with the backward and inverse unless you already did so), while thinking about the other way of doing it? 22:19:56 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:20:22 LiamH: I think the cleanest way would be to do this all internally, as I suggested in the post, i.e. abstract away stride and the possibility of an offset. 22:20:25 Sikander: Agreed. I'll have to look into prying open c-pointer, but I don't anticipate too much trouble. 22:20:33 LiamH: Sounds great 22:20:55 LiamH: So will you be working on the backward and inverse, or shall I do that? 22:21:11 Haplo__: the system only computes things like the complete class precedence list either when it has to (e.g. if an instance is constructed) or if you explicitly request it (with sb-mop:finalize-inheritance) 22:21:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:21:57 without looking at your code, it's not possible for me to say whether it's behaving as expected, or whether your code is correct 22:22:04 Sikander: Not much chance to work on it tonight, I have a meeting until late. If you have a chance tonight, do a fresh pull (I've made a couple commits last night). Otherwise, I'll next have a chance to work on it tomorrow night. 22:22:07 LiamH: so abstracting the stride and offset away would allow for automatic n-dim ffts, so when the user gives a sliced array, it automatically does the "right" thing (hopefully). 22:22:09 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@198.95.2.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [] 22:22:27 time to learn how facebook is chang 22:22:35 ing human evolution 22:22:41 Sikander: I see. 22:22:48 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:50 well, I have an hour, maybe I'll go eat something :P 22:22:54 b3nt_pin [n=brent@stjhnf0140w-142162085172.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:22 LiamH: Would a "slice" be just a marray with the same cpointer, but internally kept strides and offsets? 22:24:09 LiamH: I'll see what I can do tonight (It's already 11.30pm and I still need to do some work-related stuff before I turn in). 22:24:21 Sikander: I think that will get too difficult to implement. I'm thinking more of passing an argument to the FFT routines. 22:24:41 tcr: PYTHONPATH wasn't set. Works now 22:24:42 LiamH: As I said previously, I'm willing to do the "grunt" coding work, if you don't want to spend time on it, and if you aren't in a hurry 22:24:56 lnostdal: good news! I can get a modification of your code to fail without doing anything naughty 22:25:10 Sikander: got to go 22:25:15 (when I say "good news" I mean "damn and blast") 22:25:20 LiamH: Hopefully once everything is implemented a good way will naturally arise 22:25:23 LiamH: Ok, see you 22:25:32 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:25:37 francogr` [n=user@91.182.53.82] has joined #lisp 22:25:42 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:14 -!- francogr` [n=user@91.182.53.82] has quit [Client Quit] 22:26:31 francogr` [n=user@91.182.53.82] has joined #lisp 22:26:41 -!- francogr` [n=user@91.182.53.82] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:40 francogr` [n=user@91.182.53.82] has joined #lisp 22:28:25 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:50 Krystof: if I give a link to my code in CVS do you mind to take a look at it ? 22:28:53 getha [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 22:29:06 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:29:07 I can try but it's nearly bedtime 22:29:50 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-25-247.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:29:58 damn ! having a little one ... ;) 22:30:09 http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/eclipse/lib/clx-ext/event.lisp?rev=1.9&root=eclipse&view=auto 22:30:40 Krystof, oh .. heh 22:31:48 I must confess, that I was not the kind of person to go to bed early, but since I'm a father, it's even worth ! 22:31:49 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-25-247.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:07 -!- francogr` [n=user@91.182.53.82] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:17 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-25-247.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:32:26 francogrex [n=user@91.182.53.82] has joined #lisp 22:33:26 Haplo__: OK, you definitely want finalize-inheritance in there 22:33:52 ahah ! You'll need to explain me a little bit then 22:34:14 Haplo__: You are too complex a person to be explained. 22:34:44 s/me/to me/ 22:34:44 "you'll need" is not exactly a frequent phrase on irc and opensource projects... :) 22:34:59 when the compiler macroexpands that macrolet, it is asking for information about the classes, including all sorts of inherited behaviour 22:35:18 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:30 attila_lendvai: it's OK, the Basques get a free pass 22:35:47 thanks guys :) 22:35:59 however, a mop implementation is free not to compute that inherited behaviour until it's actually needed 22:36:14 this is called "finalizing the class", and it must happen no later than when the first instance of that class is created 22:36:34 one of the things that is done at finalization time is computing all the effective slot descriptions from the combination of all the superclass' direct slot descriptions 22:36:46 so class-direct-slots is available before finalizing, but class-slots isn't 22:36:46 I see 22:37:05 so, because you're not making instances of the class, you must request finalization yourself 22:37:13 there's a standard mop function for doing that, called finalize-inheritance 22:37:15 Haplo__: Sorry for making fun of your English grammer. It had the desired effect, though. :) 22:37:22 *grammar 22:37:45 it surely did :) 22:38:15 *beach* knows how to handle his (former) students. :) 22:38:45 Krystof: it is clear now, just one thing remaining why no error if no eval-when ? 22:39:38 if no eval-when, then none of the classes are defined at all at macroexpand time 22:39:52 so when class is never true 22:40:07 and then nothing work ? 22:40:39 or is it delayed somehow after at load time ? 22:40:57 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:41:03 josemanuel [n=josemanu@175.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:41:07 well, you don't get any make-event or re-initialize-event methods if you don't have the eval-when around the class definitions 22:41:13 until the second time you load the file, anyway 22:41:36 I see I see 22:42:16 thanks a lot, any link to the mop doc ? sbcl manual I suspect ? 22:44:16 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.182.53.82] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:24 minion: amop? 22:44:25 amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 22:44:45 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:52 stassats: Do you have split-sequence installed? 22:44:54 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@175.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:18 stassats: thank you. 22:45:22 tcr: yes 22:45:54 Hm I can't reproduce it now, but just a moment ago, slime-browse-system signalled some error on that 22:46:02 -!- co1t [n=co1t@85.232.124.217] has quit [Client Quit] 22:47:14 I have another thing on my slime todo list: make C-c C-c heed transient-mark 22:47:25 and behave like slime-compile-region in that case 22:47:44 perhaps you find time to come around it before me 22:49:30 does anyone know if Peter Van Heynde is here ? 22:49:40 can't it just use slime-compile-region? 22:50:17 stassats: Sure 22:50:45 Haplo__: the Debian maintainer ? 22:50:47 You only have to add the bits to call it when transient-mark is active 22:51:30 absolutely :) 22:51:59 tcr: i see 22:52:06 -!- fooooooooooooooo [n=levente_@apn-94-44-12-173.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:52:16 Haplo__: I don't remember ever seeing him around 22:52:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:02 fe[nl]ix: I guess I'll have to find another way to get back in touch 22:57:09 ziga`` [n=user@BSN-142-51-212.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:37 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:11 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-199-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:01:48 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:02:14 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:23 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:43 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:07:23 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:08 krystof: thanks a lot ! I got it working by creating instances since it has the desired effect, now I'm just wondering if this will have side effectrs when saving a lisp image since the created instances are kept in a global hashtable 23:11:56 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:12:16 well, as I say, you can call finalize-inheritance on the class instead 23:12:17 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:12:30 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:12:51 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:13:06 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.58.53] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:13:52 yep, I think it is a better idea, I just have to find the different cl impl mop packages 23:14:38 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:59 billitch [n=billitch@dslb-088-075-189-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:48 Interesting, starting up SBCL in a non-existing getcwd yields a pretty spectacular failure. 23:19:56 in 1.0.31.32 23:20:40 _deepfire pasted "getcwd-related crash" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89803 23:21:01 ... How can you have a non-existant cwd? I can see how it might no longer be linked on the filesystem, but it still -exists-, doesn't it? 23:21:47 nyef, well, I guess there is only one valid interpretation of my words, I hoped I didn't sound as opaque as I ended up being. 23:21:58 Nah, I'm just messing with you. :-P 23:22:04 :-D 23:23:17 it probably needs that to later initialize *d-p-d* 23:23:35 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.219] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:25 Given that it blows up when you do this, is there (a) a reliable method to detect the circumstances programmatically and (b) a Right Thing for the system to do in such a case? 23:24:29 There's one weird SNAFU I keep seeing, where calling sb-posix:putenv doesn't affect the environment, for some reason. Same version.. 23:24:37 And, yeah, I could believe that *d-p-d* is the reason it's even checking. 23:24:55 Doesn't affect -which- environment? 23:25:07 nyef, the one it is expected to affect :-) 23:25:13 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-212-148-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:25:13 -!- minion [n=minion@208.72.159.207] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:25:13 -!- specbot [n=specbot@208.72.159.207] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:25:13 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@174.0.43.116] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:25:13 -!- Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:25:13 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@193.34.28.198] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:25:13 -!- qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-skzgdlyshthqmrqc] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:25:13 -!- Orest^bnc [n=Orest@81.169.174.192] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:25:13 -!- yacin [n=yacin@143.215.130.159] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:25:13 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:25:14 qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-6bbfcad02f55a3cf] has joined #lisp 23:25:14 yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 23:25:15 -!- Raptelan [n=Raptelan@99-138-48-236.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:25:18 tessier [n=treed@216.105.40.113] has joined #lisp 23:25:21 Arelius [n=user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 23:25:25 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BEB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:25:29 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:30 Orest^bnc [n=Orest@81.169.174.192] has joined #lisp 23:25:33 Might I suggest that you're expecting it to affect the wrong environment? 23:25:54 nyef, well, the environment of the current process. 23:25:56 (Are you expecting it to change the result of sb-unix:unix-getenv or something? 'Cause that doesn't seem likely.) 23:26:31 nyef, I use sb-posix:{put,get}env 23:26:41 Hrm. Dunno. 23:27:08 There is a related issue which came up while I was trying to figure it out. 23:28:03 _deepfire pasted "possibly related issue" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89804 23:28:24 Maybe I should just compile a new SBCL. 23:31:26 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:33:36 ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 23:33:45 TR2N` [i=email@89.180.150.34] has joined #lisp 23:33:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:34:19 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9423.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 23:35:45 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-191-14.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:36:22 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:52 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-25-247.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:39:34 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-220-170.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:39:39 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 23:40:12 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 23:42:30 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 23:43:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:20 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:43:43 -!- Haplo__ [n=hatchond@cau33-1-82-66-14-55.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:48:56 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:39 demmeln [n=Adium@ip-109-84-45-69.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 23:50:20 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:52:08 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.221] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:53:14 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp